# Self Feed Bits Vs Hole Saws VS other stuff



## jakewilcox (Sep 3, 2019)

So, for the first time in a while we are looking at a wood frame project. Most of our stuff is commercial and its not wood frame. 

For years we have been using self feed bits, but they have their limitations, plus it seems like I always catch some idiot apprentice running a 4-5/8 self feed bit on a ladder with a regular drill or worse, a hole hawg. I am fine with a timberwolf for that application, but only a timberwolf and nothing else. Plus the nail issue. There is never a small amount of cussing with that. 

We also keep a stock of holesaws around for when you hit a nail or its easier or whatever. 

I have seen some of the stuff like Milwaukee Big Hawg hole saw(ish) kits around but haven't played with them much. 

We have a sales guy who can do a dog and pony show, but it is horribly obvious that he doesn't ever really have to drill a hole in anything let alone give us a demo. 

I'm looking for opinions on what you guys think for this application. I am also curious about drills, what are you all using for a right angle drill. Do you like what you have? Do you hate it?

Part of the reason I am asking these questions; I've noticed that other folks from around the country have different methods, and some are better than others, but it is nice to hear how others think, with respect to efficiency and methods. 

Thank you all!


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## breplum (Mar 21, 2009)

Mostly retired now, but we had sets of Milwaukee Big Hawg and loved them. 
Even the Lenox single tooth models are ok if the investment isn't worth it for long term.
I have a nice diamond particle disc sharpner that allows spiffy sharpening because nails are always every place.
Once we hit a nail, pull out the standard hole saw and grind through.
Timberwolf is mostly what we use and one Milwaukee Super Hawg.
Absolutely best quick change arbor is the Dewalt spring loaded model:


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## ironandfire (Oct 9, 2008)

I have a couple 1 3/8 self feed for water , that's about it for those style of bits. I found the key to hole saws is removing the swarf. A hole somewhere in the diameter of the hole you're drilling allows the swarf to fall out. With this, the saws stay cooler , don't bind up and last longer. 
Still have the original Timberwolf with metal case. It's been replaced with a Dewalt 124.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

*Here :*




https://www.plumbingzone.com/f10/best-self-feeding-wood-bits-62266/

https://www.plumbingzone.com/f10/right-angle-drill-27830/

https://www.plumbingzone.com/f10/stud-joist-drills-80601/


.


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## jakewilcox (Sep 3, 2019)

ironandfire said:


> I have a couple 1 3/8 self feed for water , that's about it for those style of bits. I found the key to hole saws is removing the swarf. A hole somewhere in the diameter of the hole you're drilling allows the swarf to fall out. With this, the saws stay cooler , don't bind up and last longer.
> Still have the original Timberwolf with metal case. It's been replaced with a Dewalt 124.


oops.....We still call them a Timberwolf. I don't think it has been called that for a long time. We use a DW-124.

​


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

If carpenters would show a little class and line their plate nails up with the studs there would be a lot less agony on our part.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

jakewilcox said:


> ..........
> 
> For years we have been using self feed bits, but they have their limitations, plus it seems like I always catch some idiot apprentice running a 4-5/8 self feed bit on a ladder with a regular drill or worse, a hole hawg. I am fine with a timberwolf for that application, but only a timberwolf and nothing else. Plus the nail issue. There is never a small amount of cussing with that.
> 
> We also keep a stock of holesaws around for when you hit a nail or its easier or whatever. ...........



For holes *up to 1-1/2" irwin has self feeding bits* which can go in the impact, though I generally use a regular drill. They have three cutting edges and work pretty well.


For holes up to about 3" we use the *self feeding forstner bits* in a *super hawg*.



Anything *above 3" use a holesaw in a regular drill *and like ironandfire said, *drilling a hole or three with the pilot bit somewhere in the circuference *of your cut allows the holesaw to clear the swarf. That is the downfall of holesaws, amateurs never let the cutting clear so they just bind up in the teeth. Then the teeth rapidly overheat and lose temper.









.


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## ironandfire (Oct 9, 2008)

..as far my part of the country, the inspectors aren't critical about drilling studs for drainage. I don't for kitchen sink waste arm. I will for the washer box. Case in point. Was called out to some condos, Piping water heaters, 3 rd floor, six penetrations. Third pic would have never worked with 1/4 bends. Drilled at a 22.5 with parallel 22.5 offsets ( 1/16 bends butted hub to hub).


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ironandfire said:


> ..as far my part of the country, the inspectors aren't critical about drilling studs for drainage. I don't for kitchen sink waste arm. I will for the washer box. Case in point. Was called out to some condos, Piping water heaters, 3 rd floor, six penetrations. Third pic would have never worked with 1/4 bends. Drilled at a 22.5 with parallel 22.5 offsets ( 1/16 bends butted hub to hub).





I really hope none of that is load bearing. Given that it's douglas fir I worry that it might be.




.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Using a hole saw is like using a hand saw. When there are faster options, it's hard to justify the extra time spent. For any hole up to 2-9/16", a man should be able to control a drill using a Forstner bit, If the bit won't bite, maybe it's time to sharpen or replace. 
Nails can't be totally avoided, but a little time spent looking for nails and pulling those found or relocating a hole is worth the effort in avoided danger, frustration and bit wear.


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## ken53 (Mar 1, 2011)

skoronesa said:


> I really hope none of that is load bearing. Given that it's douglas fir I worry that it might be.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see trusses it won't fly here because we have snow load rules. 
Also from the look its an outside wall. 
The inspectors say inside the heated space to prevent frost build up. 
Even Bvent has to be insulated in an outside wall.


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## ironandfire (Oct 9, 2008)

ken53 said:


> I see trusses it won't fly here because we have snow load rules.
> Also from the look its an outside wall.
> The inspectors say inside the heated space to prevent frost build up.
> Even Bvent has to be insulated in an outside wall.


 Not an outside wall. Hallway, the heaters sit in an alcove for the unit.


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## ironandfire (Oct 9, 2008)

Plumbus said:


> Using a hole saw is like using a hand saw. When there are faster options, it's hard to justify the extra time spent. For any hole up to 2-9/16", a man should be able to control a drill using a Forstner bit, If the bit won't bite, maybe it's time to sharpen or replace.
> Nails can't be totally avoided, but a little time spent looking for nails and pulling those found or relocating a hole is worth the effort in avoided danger, frustration and bit wear.


 On the contrary, I don't see anybody using saws correctly. It's the swarf that's the killer. Let's have a look at my numbers for this. 
drill crew of one.
4 5/8 forester bit, around $100.00 bucks
3 5/8 " , around $ 100.00 bucks
2 9/16 " , $40.00 bucks
2 1/8 " , $30.00 buck

and you're buying hole saws for nail embedded wood ? 
I'm not seeing' it. 

Hole saw set, from 4 5/8" on down to 2 1/8" plus arbor, little over $100.00.
Not including the Irwin 1/2 or 5/8" for swarf removal.
As an added plus, nobody gives a crap about a hole saw.

What about resharpening ? Do you send them out or do it yourself, or just buy a new one ?
I just throw an old hole saw away.

..so, you've got $270.00 in Forstners and $100 in hole saws, almost $400. 
I can do the same thing for a little over a $100.00.


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## ironandfire (Oct 9, 2008)

Plus, I can drill at an angle.


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## ironandfire (Oct 9, 2008)

I don't know where Jakes at in the trade but the best route is to take a rigid line with the ideal. And the ideal is to not take more than 40% of the stud, wether structural or not.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ironandfire said:


> ..........so, you've got $270.00 in Forstners and $100 in hole saws, almost $400.
> I can do the same thing for a little over a $100.00.


*You drive a jetta to the jobsite, clearly you're more interested in carrying less volume in tools than the cost of those tools.
*
*The cost is kind of a moot point. We spend lots of money on lots of tools and a forstner will pay for itself quickly if you're plumbing new houses/renos.*


Yeah, those forstners cost a lot but they are much faster. They also are much stronger. You can(at least I can) easily sharpen a forstner on a grinding wheel or with a dremel. A whole saw is easily crapped and has to be sent out for sharpening.

*Half our guys send the holesaws out to sharpen and the other half just throw them away and buy new. Almost no one throws away a forstner. So there goes your cost on holesaws at 10-45$ each time one of your crew says fock this thing.*


I keep like 30 holesaws on my van, two or three forstners, some old paddle bits and a whole set of irwin speedbore bits up to 1-1/2". Holesaws take up much less space. I haven't worn out a holesaw in years because drilling a couple holes I take my time to be careful. I use a 2 speed right angle drill. But I am a service guy. 

*Put me on a job site and I will almost always grab a forstner and the hole hawg because then I am drilling like 10-20 boards in a row. Like fock am I doing 10+ 2" holes with a hole saw, it'll take twice the time.*


.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ironandfire said:


> Plus, I can drill at an angle.


I can do lots of things at lots of angles, give me 50$ and I'll show you :wink:


.


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## ironandfire (Oct 9, 2008)

:kiss:


skoronesa said:


> I can do lots of things at lots of angles, give me 50$ and I'll show you :wink:
> 
> 
> .


 I got one for ya.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

ironandfire said:


> On the contrary, I don't see anybody using saws correctly. It's the swarf that's the killer. Let's have a look at my numbers for this.
> drill crew of one.
> 4 5/8 forester bit, around $100.00 bucks
> 3 5/8 " , around $ 100.00 bucks
> ...


For larger than 2-9/16", I will agree. But most holes are not. 
The cost of the tool is a consideration. But, what about an employee's time?
If each hole takes a few minutes longer, it's not long before the cost difference between the two bits is eclipsed.


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## ironandfire (Oct 9, 2008)

I just did a time comparison on a single 2 x 4, 2 1/8" holes. Forstner was 14 sec.(not including sharpening the Forstner), saw was 31 secs.( including 3/4" hole for swarf). Total time difference; 17 secs. Minuscule in my opinion. 
At 100, 2 1/8" holes (with a Forstner) the first guy that's late or the supply house run before the job has just burned up your gain.
For me, the hole saw is my go to. I'm pretty sure I get the most out them.


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## ironandfire (Oct 9, 2008)

Support structure for the pipe is another bonus.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ironandfire said:


> I just did a time comparison on a single 2 x 4, 2 1/8" holes. Forstner was 14 sec.(not including sharpening the Forstner), saw was 31 secs.( including 3/4" hole for swarf). Total time difference; 17 secs. Minuscule in my opinion.
> At 100, 2 1/8" holes (with a Forstner) the first guy that's late or the supply house run before the job has just burned up your gain.
> For me, the hole saw is my go to. I'm pretty sure I get the most out them.





What kind of drill?






.


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## ironandfire (Oct 9, 2008)

skoronesa said:


> What kind of drill?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Dewalt 124


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## ironandfire (Oct 9, 2008)

Stantion type support.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

ironandfire said:


> I just did a time comparison on a single 2 x 4, 2 1/8" holes. Forstner was 14 sec.(not including sharpening the Forstner), saw was 31 secs.( including 3/4" hole for swarf). Total time difference; 17 secs. Minuscule in my opinion.
> At 100, 2 1/8" holes (with a Forstner) the first guy that's late or the supply house run before the job has just burned up your gain.
> For me, the hole saw is my go to. I'm pretty sure I get the most out them.


fuk the hole saw if your drilling wood for plumbing pipes unless you get to 3 inch and above..sharpen the self feeder and it will be much faster than any hole saw..30 plus years thats all i used for wood..I have a nice set of milwaukee hole saws for metal and counter tops and a few from 3 inch up to 6 inch...all used in a milwaukee right angle drill..


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> fuk the hole saw if your drilling wood for plumbing pipes unless you get to 3 inch and above..sharpen the self feeder and it will be much faster than any hole saw..30 plus years thats all i used for wood..I have a nice set of milwaukee hole saws for metal and counter tops and a few from 3 inch up to 6 inch...all used in a milwaukee right angle drill..


Amen!


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## ironandfire (Oct 9, 2008)

jakewilcox said:


> So, for the first time in a while we are looking at a wood frame project. Most of our stuff is commercial and its not wood frame.
> 
> For years we have been using self feed bits, but they have their limitations, plus it seems like I always catch some idiot apprentice running a 4-5/8 self feed bit on a ladder with a regular drill or worse, a hole hawg. I am fine with a timberwolf for that application, but only a timberwolf and nothing else. Plus the nail issue. There is never a small amount of cussing with that.
> 
> ...


 Well, Jake 
If your boss is willing to hook you up with a $400 set of bits , take him up on it.
More than likely he'll get you 2 1/8 and 2 9/16, hole saw the rest. If he asks your opinion tell him "they're way fast" he'll like to hear it.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

jakewilcox said:


> So, for the first time in a while we are looking at a wood frame project. Most of our stuff is commercial and its not wood frame.







ironandfire said:


> Well, Jake
> If your boss is willing to hook you up with a $400 set of bits , take him up on it.
> More than likely he'll get you 2 1/8 and 2 9/16, hole saw the rest. If he asks your opinion tell him "they're way fast" he'll like to hear it.





Sounds to me like you're right, they should have a full set of hole saws and forstners to keep in the shop for all the guys to share on the occasional woodframe job. Maybe they already have some.


Our tool crib is stocked with just about one of everything.



Chances are some of his co-workers already have some on their vans. and if he asks they can all let him borrow the bits he needs for this job.




.


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## jakewilcox (Sep 3, 2019)

Thank you all for the info. We have traditionally used self feeds even above 3". The hot ticket seems to be the switch blades. With a timberwolf. 
I was primarily trying to understand if there was something better, something faster that you guys liked better. It seems like the self feeds are still the way to go. 

So, here is a question: In my experience a self feed is a kind of like a fostner with a snail that pulls the bit through the wood, for cutting fast, relatively rough holes. A forsner is a bit with almost like a tack on the at the center for alignement; this type of bit is used primarily by wood workers (cabinet makers?) in a drill press. Are you all calling self feeds bits forstners? Or are you differentiating?


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

jakewilcox said:


> Are you all calling self feeds bits forstners? Or are you differentiating?




*Yes, all of us are referring to forstners as self-feeding bits and we are using the terms interchangably. The self feeding bits are forstners with screws on the end.*



Anyone who would use a non self feeding forstner for holes that big with a hand drill will quickly rethink their choices in life. We're not making fine furniture here, we're making lots of big holes quickly.


So far the only disagreement here is whether you should get a full set of forstners AND a full set of holesaws or just stick to one style or a mix of both in limited quantities. I feel you should have both in all the relevant sizes. When we say "full set" we mean all of the relevant sizes for the pipe you are running, you don't need every incremental size.


*Here are the options presented thus far;*


-----Go cheap, only get certain size holesaws and *maybe* a forstner in 2-9/16".



------Spend a little more and get a 100$ set of holesaws and like two forstners




-----Get all sizes of both. The forstners can cost quite a bit. This is like a 200-300$ option





------Irwin speedbor bits are really great too and a set up to 1-1/2" is only like 37$




.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

jakewilcox said:


> Thank you all for the info. We have traditionally used self feeds even above 3". The hot ticket seems to be the switch blades. With a timberwolf.
> I was primarily trying to understand if there was something better, something faster that you guys liked better. It seems like the self feeds are still the way to go.
> 
> So, here is a question: In my experience a self feed is a kind of like a fostner with a snail that pulls the bit through the wood, for cutting fast, relatively rough holes. A forsner is a bit with almost like a tack on the at the center for alignement; this type of bit is used primarily by wood workers (cabinet makers?) in a drill press. Are you all calling self feeds bits forstners? Or are you differentiating?



*Milwaukee 48-25-5150 2-9/16-Inch Switchblade Selfeed Bit *


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

My arsenal on the van. The go to for new construction is the big hawg hole saw powered by the cordless super hawg.


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## jakewilcox (Sep 3, 2019)

skoronesa said:


> Anyone who would use a non self feeding forstner for holes that big with a hand drill will quickly rethink their choices in life. We're not making fine furniture here, we're making lots of big holes quickly.
> 
> 
> :vs_laugh:
> ...


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> *Milwaukee 48-25-5150 2-9/16-Inch Switchblade Selfeed Bit *


That’s the one I use. I’ve never heard of Forstener bit.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Debo22 said:


> That’s the one I use. I’ve never heard of Forstener bit.


The most common Fostener bit is made to drill holes in cabinet doors to accept kitchen/bathroom hinges. The center guide point is barely sticking out so not to go through ruining your piece.


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## Dontbitenails (Oct 16, 2020)

I use mainly holesaws for drilling anything larger than 1 " . If I was only roughing in new houses I would use the larger self feeding bits . 

Learned something new today reading previous posts. 33 years in the trade and I never drilled a small hole in the circumference before drilling with a holesaw . Now I will never drill a hole with a holesaw without a small hole for the swarth to exit . Much easier on the bit and doesn't heat up as much . Evan an old dog can learn a new trick


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Dontbitenails said:


> I use mainly holesaws for drilling anything larger than 1 " . If I was only roughing in new houses I would use the larger self feeding bits .
> 
> Learned something new today reading previous posts. 33 years in the trade and I never drilled a small hole in the circumference before drilling with a holesaw . Now I will never drill a hole with a holesaw without a small hole for the swarth to exit . Much easier on the bit and doesn't heat up as much . Evan an old dog can learn a new trick


If you want to get fancy, drill the hole at a 45 degree angle towards the direction the bit is rotating. The bit doesn't want to push the swarf straight foward, it wants to push it sideways.


It doesn't have to be a small bit either, I keep a 1/2" bit in my toolbag.


.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

I talked to another plumber buddy of mine about bits and he uses the spider bits from Lowe's with cordless drill,he said they work really good and he does 75 houses a yr or more,he said when it gets dull he just chucks it and buys another,really 2-9/16" is the only bit you need,get dull chuck it and buy a new one


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

sparky said:


> I talked to another plumber buddy of mine about bits and he uses the spider bits from Lowe's with cordless drill,he said they work really good and he does 75 houses a yr or more,he said when it gets dull he just chucks it and buys another,really 2-9/16" is the only bit you need,get dull chuck it and buy a new one


You mean spade drill bits? That's what I use for small stuff 1/2-3/4" but 2-9/16"????


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> You mean spade drill bits? That's what I use for small stuff 1/2-3/4" but 2-9/16"????


Looks like "Spyder" is a brand and they make both self feeding paddle bits and self feeding auger bits. I have to assume he means the auger style.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> Looks like "Spyder" is a brand and they make both self feeding paddle bits and self feeding auger bits. I have to assume he means the auger style.
> 
> View attachment 126319


I'm not sure which kind he was referring to


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

sparky said:


> I'm not sure which kind he was referring to


I would love to see a 2-9/16" paddle bit lolz


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> I would love to see a 2-9/16" paddle bit lolz



Gore fest movie comes to mind!


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