# So I think the pre-bid went well....



## HOT H2O (Sep 23, 2011)

OK, so I was the only Plumbing Contractor to show up for this meeting.... and from what I can tell from the mass emails they send out to all contractors I am the only plumber on that list. 

Sweet.

I think.

SO I've never bid a job like this: 

Sanitary
Hot and Cold
Filtered Water
Compressed Air 
Vacuum Lines (what is typically required for a test during inspection?)

Nine Dental Chairs & Utility boxes
Three bathroom ADA
Misc other fixtures

I'm thinking that the plumbing is the bulk of this entire project. 

Any place I can get a quick lesson or "bidding bigger jobs for dummies" or anyone with dental clinic experience got any tips for bidding?

RFI's due by Wednesday
Bid by Friday?

(By the way, I'm a one-man-and-a-van company...but I have other one-man plumbing companies that I can solicit for help since I'll need it)

WHere can I start? I assume my next several days will be spent on this. I can't afford to miss anything.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

HOT H2O said:


> OK, so I was the only Plumbing Contractor to show up for this meeting.... and from what I can tell from the mass emails they send out to all contractors I am the only plumber on that list.
> 
> Sweet.
> 
> ...



Take the prints to a reputable supply house that you use and they will do the material and fixture takeoff for you and price it out , but it would be wise for you to also do a take off in case they miss something . Then you can figure your labor based on schedule of work. Also read the spec book at least twice. Good luck . Also since this is your first job to bid add 20 percent after you total everything up .


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

HOT H2O said:


> OK, so I was the only Plumbing Contractor to show up for this meeting.... and from what I can tell from the mass emails they send out to all contractors I am the only plumber on that list.
> 
> Sweet.
> 
> ...


Only thing I can speak on suction lines, the few we ran were PVC and if you had to test them I would think an air test would be fine, couldn't tell you to what extent. Just a worker bee so I can't add much to the rest.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

One other thing be very clear on your exclusions on your proposal . For example if you're only stubbing out the building 5' state that clearly.If there is a scope of work read that very hard and take it to heart. The scope of work is the bible along with the specs


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Don't just study the plbg pages.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Also check the mechanicals to see if the plumber has the condesate drains .


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

HOT H2O said:


> OK, so I was the only Plumbing Contractor to show up for this meeting.... and from what I can tell from the mass emails they send out to all contractors I am the only plumber on that list.
> 
> Sweet.
> 
> ...


This would be a good opportunity to meet the inspector that will be looking over your work. They have the answers and they will love that you came to them to ask their opinions. Silly I know but face time with the local inspectors is a good thing in my opinion. If you meet them at their office check out their desk and see what they are into so you have something to talk to him about other than work.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

I always look at the millwork set when I'm doing a medical facility...


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## Boundry (Jul 14, 2012)

I've done 2 dental clinics, be sure to read the spec book! It will tell you what materials they want, how they want them installed ect.
Millworker drawings are excellent as well
Backflow preventer on water main 
Is there any medi gas involved?


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Thought of something else its pretty important, make sure the prints you are bidding off of have been through plan review at the city . If not note that on your bid ,it is subject to change accordingly to any revisions the city wants.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Kind of a rush isn't it? I remember the first time i figured something llike that- up all night studying drawings, reading spec book, etc. Good times.

I was intimidated by it. Don't be. Do you best and let the chips fall where they may.

Good luck.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

HOT H2O said:


> OK, so I was the only Plumbing Contractor to show up for this meeting.... and from what I can tell from the mass emails they send out to all contractors I am the only plumber on that list.
> 
> Sweet.
> 
> ...


The email addys can be made private or sent one at a time in a mass mailing. Just because they didn't show doesn't mean they aren't bidding it. Bids like this are a dime-a-dozen to some commercial companies. We got some here that employ 100 plumbers during the off season.

Ask the supplier about the GC and the owner.

Demand that they buy the material. Remember, you're responsible for the material regardless if you get paid.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Plumber said:


> Demand that they buy the material. Remember, you're responsible for the material regardless if you get paid.


You lose the markup if you do that.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Killertoiletspider said:


> You lose the markup if you do that.


lol---I remember your story about your brief career in business. How did that work out for you again?


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## HOT H2O (Sep 23, 2011)

Colgar said:


> Kind of a rush isn't it? I remember the first time i figured something llike that- up all night studying drawings, reading spec book, etc. Good times.
> 
> I was intimidated by it. Don't be. Do you best and let the chips fall where they may.
> 
> Good luck.



Looking forward to it..... I'm tired of swapping out toilets for people with no money.


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## HOT H2O (Sep 23, 2011)

Boundry said:


> Is there any medi gas involved?


I didn't see anything on the print. I did RFI it though


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

also check on the draw schedules so you can work out your cash flow.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

killertoiltetspider and plumber Both have good points , one way you limit your losses the other you don't make the mark up.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Plumber said:


> lol---I remember your story about your brief career in business. How did that work out for you again?


The guy I sold my business to makes more money on markup than he does on labor on some jobs. Install 4 Dornbracht faucets, $1300 in labor, $3600 in markup.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

HOT H2O said:


> I didn't see anything on the print. I did RFI it though


So you,re thinking they forgot to put the gas on the print? lol 

You might also ask if there is any cyanide piping that isn't on the print...

Run. Just run. My gut and probably yours is saying the same thing.

Now it's time for story time with ILP.

Once upon a time there was a little fish. He lived in a little pond and ruled over it. He was the biggest fish there. It wasn't enough for him. He wanted to be bigger. So, he packed his bags for a neighboring larger pond. With stars in his eyes he was off to conquer newer and bigger territories. Upon arrival at the new pond he saw that he was just a little fish. One of hundreds. He needed to be in the bigger pond if he wanted to get bigger. But there was an excellent chance he would be eaten before the day ended.

He was at a crossroads. 

1. Jump in the bigger pond with a chance of getting bigger or possibly getting eaten within the first five minutes.

2. Go back to what he knows, for it is safe.

You grasshopper are that fish. What's it gonna be? 

P.S. other plumbers aren't on the plan holders list because they get copies from the gc. Don't kid yourself into thinking you are the only one.

Sent from my iPad using PlumbingZone


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## HOT H2O (Sep 23, 2011)

ILPlumber said:


> P.S. other plumbers aren't on the plan holders list because they get copies from the gc. Don't kid yourself into thinking you are the only one.


possible, but this is what I know. this particular GC is also the architect for the project. I actually am the only plumber bidding the job....with him. But he is not the only GC bidding the project.

which brings up another question. After going through the effort of producing a competitive bid, should I try to determine who the other GC's are, and ask to submit my bid with them also?


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

I did only one dental office in my carreer. The guy that installed all the equipment, had done hundreds of them, & thats about all he did. This guy came up to me & told me if I rough the plbg in like he advises, everything will go good. Thats what I did, & it went off without a hitch. 

Not saying you should do this exact thing, just giving you another idea, that if you get this job, make friends with the person who will be installing the equipment.:yes:

Quite a big project to take on, for a man show. I wish you nothing but luck, & prosperity. But what ya gonna do with all the customers that call you, while this project is going on?


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I find it hard to believe 1 of the bidding gc's on the project is also the architect of the whole thing.

Architect = owners representative.

Does he hand himself a bill and go certify his own work is complete and correct for payment?

Dental offices usually use a set of cookie cutter prints that have been built 100's of times before.

Each peice of equipment will have a full size template for the location of your and the electricians ****.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

HOT H2O said:


> possible, but this is what I know. this particular GC is also the architect for the project. I actually am the only plumber bidding the job....with him. But he is not the only GC bidding the project.
> 
> which brings up another question. After going through the effort of producing a competitive bid, should I try to determine who the other GC's are, and ask to submit my bid with them also?


lol---firgitboutit. 

Get 50% down and they buy every single part.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Boundry said:


> I've done 2 dental clinics, be sure to read the spec book! It will tell you what materials they want, how they want them installed ect.
> Millworker drawings are excellent as well
> Backflow preventer on water main
> Is there any medi gas involved?


Medical Gas was going to be my first question.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

HOT H2O said:


> Looking forward to it..... I'm tired of swapping out toilets for people with no money.


So now you'll be working for a gc who's got all the money, and won't want to give you yours.

Like don said, what about the the service calls?


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

HOT H2O said:


> possible, but this is what I know. this particular GC is also the architect for the project. I actually am the only plumber bidding the job....with him. But he is not the only GC bidding the project.
> 
> which brings up another question. After going through the effort of producing a competitive bid, should I try to determine who the other GC's are, and ask to submit my bid with them also?


Are you attached to this particular GC in any way.

If not, then go for it.

I lost one of my most productive GC's in the early 80's when I did an end run around him after he/we lost a good size housing development.

I submitted my proposal/bid to the winning GC and ended up splitting the housing development with three other Plumbing Contractors.

The GC I had initially bid the project with kicked me to the curb when he found out I was involved in the project -- He went on to become the most prolific housing development builder in South King County.


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## HOT H2O (Sep 23, 2011)

Don The Plumber said:


> Quite a big project to take on, for a man show. I wish you nothing but luck, & prosperity. But what ya gonna do with all the customers that call you, while this project is going on?


I have two local one man show plumbers that I share work with. One is strictly a service plumber , and would love to take on my work for a few weeks. The other is a residential guy, and I will be using his help as labor on this project if awarded.


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## HOT H2O (Sep 23, 2011)

ILPlumber said:


> I find it hard to believe 1 of the bidding gc's on the project is also the architect of the whole thing.
> 
> Architect = owners representative.
> 
> ...


That was brought up at pre-bid. The architect mentioned that he had a project in Ft. Lauderdale that he lost because of the "conflict of interest" due to being Architect and GC. I assume that it's something he has prepared for with this job.

I hope.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

HOT H2O said:


> I have two local one man show plumbers that I share work with. One is strictly a service plumber , and would love to take on my work for a few weeks. The other is a residential guy, and I will be using his help as labor on this project if awarded.


As long as they don't steal your customers for more than a few weeks.

I don't know how you do that. All my customers know I'm a one man show, & if I don't show up in person, they'd be asking alot of questions.

Not trying to be all negative, just don't bite off more than you can handle.

How long you been in business? 

I have been offered so many huge jobs, that I know I either can't handle, would have to fool myself into thinking I could handle them, if I actually landed the job, or I would be working day & night, & stressed to the max to get it done. Then hope & pray you get paid, cuz if you got all, or most of your eggs in the same nest, & that nest falls out of the tree, & lands in bankruptcy, your likely goin down with it.

Even with all that being said, I still beat myself up for turning away some of these jobs, cuz when I worked for my family, we did all that. But we had the manpower to handle it, back then. And customers were much more likely to pay back then too. And as the years go buy, & I built up quite a good amount of service customers, I realize there is no way I can take on a single job that would take up weeks of my time. JMHO


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

HOT H2O said:


> possible, but this is what I know. this particular GC is also the architect for the project. I actually am the only plumber bidding the job....with him. But he is not the only GC bidding the project.
> 
> which brings up another question. After going through the effort of producing a competitive bid, should I try to determine who the other GC's are, and ask to submit my bid with them also?[/QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I pass on easy commercial work because of size all the time. The building I handle the service in, throws the plans on my desk before they even go up for bid. I don't do this work because of time. As a one man shop you can't keep up with the schedule very easily.

Having other guys work for you is okay but, keep in mind their priority is their company not yours. If they get an influx of work they Are gone. Lots of these jobs have performance contracts too you have to get them done in a certain amount of time or have to pay the owner for delays.

If you are comfortable with the fact that this single job can put you under then go for it. I would be much more comfortable with it being a three to for man shop IMO


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## HOT H2O (Sep 23, 2011)

RW Plumbing said:


> I pass on easy commercial work because of size all the time. The building I handle the service in, throws the plans on my desk before they even go up for bid. I don't do this work because of time. As a one man shop you can't keep up with the schedule very easily.
> 
> Having other guys work for you is okay but, keep in mind their priority is their company not yours. If they get an influx of work they Are gone. Lots of these jobs have performance contracts too you have to get them done in a certain amount of time or have to pay the owner for delays.
> 
> If you are comfortable with the fact that this single job can put you under then go for it. I would be much more comfortable with it being a three to for man shop IMO


I am fairly new in business. I got licensed in 2010, but almost immediately went back to work for an old employer who landed an elementary school complex. That project brought us right up to this spring with steady work , at which time I broke off to pursue my own endeavors. Working for him while building my own customer base was a huge help. But with only a few small town GC's who use me loyally, and most of my service coming through word of mouth referrals, I don't immediately have a ton of work on my plate. 

I'd like to push this company to the 3 man shop you spoke of. Or even just one good mechanic plus myself. I'm good with the numbers end of plumbing, and so far I haven't bid all that many jobs I didn't get awarded, but again the sample size that statement is taken from , is quite small. 

I come from a family plumbing business...4th generation. While they are still very much successful up North, I am trying to start anew down here in Florida. It's tough, I know it.... and sometimes I wish I had just stayed in Jersey and taken over for the old man, but I want to know that I can take this from the ground up, and do it myself , with the help of the good Lord.

I guess only time will tell.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

HOT H2O said:


> I am fairly new in business. I got licensed in 2010, but almost immediately went back to work for an old employer who landed an elementary school complex. That project brought us right up to this spring with steady work , at which time I broke off to pursue my own endeavors. Working for him while building my own customer base was a huge help. But with only a few small town GC's who use me loyally, and most of my service coming through word of mouth referrals, I don't immediately have a ton of work on my plate.
> 
> I'd like to push this company to the 3 man shop you spoke of. Or even just one good mechanic plus myself. I'm good with the numbers end of plumbing, and so far I haven't bid all that many jobs I didn't get awarded, but again the sample size that statement is taken from , is quite small.
> 
> ...


I have 3 including myself. It works well for me. I have been down, but I can still bid and supervise, and that has kept the money flowing. My son is on vacation and I actually went out today and did a little work to finish a remodel. I've never had a vacation. But 3 is a good number.


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## HOT H2O (Sep 23, 2011)

SlickRick said:


> I have 3 including myself. It works well for me. I have been down, but I can still bid and supervise, and that has kept the money flowing. My son is on vacation and I actually went out today and did a little work to finish a remodel. I've never had a vacation. But 3 is a good number.


Vacation? What is that?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*Murpheys Law*

remember Murpheys Law

if you take this job on, 
The Odds are you will get hung up in it like
a male dog stuck in a female.....and you will begin to
lose your ass as the delays and mistakes begin to stack up.....

I can guarantte you that your phone will begin ringing off the 
wall with tons of easy gravey calls that you will just have to pass 
on cause you are stuck on that job which only makes the pain in 
your wallet hurt worse. and worse.....

and sometimes this nightmare can test the core of your very soul when
your help fails to show up on the days you really need them.......
but they will still show up on pay-day:yes:



that is just the way it always goes ......
and that is the main reason I steer clear of them :yes:


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Business is like watching a poker game. It looks really easy because you know the fundamentals of the game and you're highly skilled at shuffling the cards.

You watch the winners rake in the cash and they make it look sooooo easy. Just ante up, pick up the cards, lay the money down, and play your hand. Anyone can do it with a little luck. Why, just look at the fat cats in my little county. They have millions in the bank. Seriously. 

Problem is, there are very few winners in this game. And there are far more sharks and cheats than winners.

And those winners? They really are smart and they have smarter people behind them.

Yeah, kid. Post on the internet and bid the job based on what a group of complete strangers tell you. They aren't sharks; just friendly poker players.


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

i would bid the job using medgas standards that apply to the level needed for a dental office, if you are not medgas certified, then good luck with that.


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

I am in the same boat as being a one man shop. Sounds great to want to expand. 
I just passed on a commercial job. 4 gang baths and pantries. I can do the work, dont have the experience to bid it.
Now if I got the job what happens to the customers that call when I am working there. Lost forever. At this point in time I believe of you are doing service, and do one nice big job, isnt worth losing the customers I have.


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## HOT H2O (Sep 23, 2011)

Bayside500 said:


> i would bid the job using medgas standards that apply to the level needed for a dental office, if you are not medgas certified, then good luck with that.


 RFI'd the medgas the other day .... Still no reply. 

In Florida, where can I go to test out for medgas? I've heard it's basically just a brazing test with a few questions. Any truth to that?


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

HOT H2O said:


> RFI'd the medgas the other day .... Still no reply.
> 
> In Florida, where can I go to test out for medgas? I've heard it's basically just a brazing test with a few questions. Any truth to that?


 oh it is more than that, it was a 2 day deal for us to take, we did our training here

not sure of the price as my employer paid for it


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

HOT H2O said:


> RFI'd the medgas the other day .... Still no reply.
> 
> In Florida, where can I go to test out for medgas? I've heard it's basically just a brazing test with a few questions. Any truth to that?


The recertification is that easy. The class takes a little while. Your braze needs to be cut open and sent out to be certified


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

HOT H2O said:


> RFI'd the medgas the other day .... Still no reply.
> 
> In Florida, where can I go to test out for medgas? I've heard it's basically just a brazing test with a few questions. Any truth to that?


No disrespect intended, but if you have to be asking this question and sending an RFI about Medgas...I think you may be in way over your head.

It may not be the right time for you to take on a job like this by yourself.


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## HOT H2O (Sep 23, 2011)

Titan Plumbing said:


> No disrespect intended, but if you have to be asking this question and sending an RFI about Medgas...I think you may be in way over your head.
> 
> It may not be the right time for you to take on a job like this by yourself.


That may be a fair assumption, but I am surrounded by a good team.

Skill wise I can handle the work. I have a "retired" commercial plumber who I have asked to help me with the field labor. I already have my take-offs done, and I am working on the days of labor for the bid (my weakest strength). 

With the possibility that Yes, I may be in just over my head, I'm going with the, "swing hard just in case you hit it" approach with my bid. 

If I bid high and get the job, it's a high risk / high reward.
If I bid high and do not get the job, I gain an education.


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## HOT H2O (Sep 23, 2011)

Being my first dental clinic (build out, no less) , I just assumed there would be nitrous lines. There is nothing on the print that suggests there would be. That was the reason for my RFI. 

Did the RFI make me seem novice?


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

Make sure every page of the print is in there!!!!! Bid with the most expensive material , then ask inspector what he will except.

Back flow is huge where I come from


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