# What Caused The Leak?



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Delta valve;
Bridget solder;
Municipal water;
No softener equipment;
Installed for 5 years.

What happened?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

...


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Is/was it leaking at the brass?


Shooting from the hip, I'd guess de-zincification. Something leaching the zinc out of the brass alloy.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> Is/was it leaking at the brass?
> 
> 
> Shooting from the hip, I'd guess de-zincification. Something leaching the zinc out of the brass alloy.


Water was spraying out of the bottom of the hot side inlet. From the brass, not the solder joint. Was developing on cold side also but wasn't spraying yet.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Does the municipality use wells? I see a lot of mineral buildup. Also if it becomes epidemic it is possible they put something in the water. 

This happened in an area in Maryland where pinholes suddenly sprung up in almost every building with copper pipe at the same time. The water commission of coarse denied it. But it was too much of a coincidence.


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## jitr64 (Sep 30, 2010)

You might want to get Delta involved on this they can send to a lab and determine the cause of failure.


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

Mineral build up contributed. Whether it was too much iron, magnesium, limescale or dolomite. The original installer was just terrible. That is some AWFUL soldering. Either way, hard water got a hold of that thing, to say the least. It's possible that enough mineral corrosion can eventually eat through a brass valve body.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

C-flux + too much heat :confused1:


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Maybe valve was damaged from shipping? Interesting


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Its Delta, what did ya expected??


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> Its Delta, what did ya expected??


Exactly it's Delta. We're not talking Moen, whos shower cartridges last a year or so, then take 24" pipe wrench too remove.....


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## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the leak was due to the pressurized fluid inside the tubing and valve. If they were full of air at atmospheric pressure this wouldn't have happened.

What's my prize?


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## Plumb Bob (Mar 9, 2011)

Bad brass casting?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

looks like a stress crack to me 
you can tell that it was under some duress 
at that point


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> looks like a stress crack to me
> you can tell that it was under some duress
> at that point


Yep..Sure is. You don't see that too often, but you do see it.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> looks like a stress crack to me
> you can tell that it was under some duress
> at that point


I don't think stress was a major factor. The bend that makes it look like it was in a bind, was actually the fitting bending open as we took the photos.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Tommy plumber said:


> Is/was it leaking at the brass?
> 
> Shooting from the hip, I'd guess de-zincification. Something leaching the zinc out of the brass alloy.


I think you hit it right on the head, here brass fittings and shower valves seem to randomly seep and break like glass


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## bighutch (Feb 14, 2012)

hard water ,will destroy anything.


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

Tommy plumber said:


> Is/was it leaking at the brass?
> 
> Shooting from the hip, I'd guess de-zincification. Something leaching the zinc out of the brass alloy.


Biz,

The Zinc leeched out from inside, the telltale "brown" ring color you are seeing is just the Brass that's left behind after
the Zinc has left. The brass is not very strong and breaks easily.
What caused it occur there, one can only guess?


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

BigDave said:


> Biz,
> 
> The Zinc leeched out from inside, the telltale "brown" ring color you are seeing is just the Brass that's left behind after
> the Zinc has left. The brass is not very strong and breaks easily.
> What caused it occur there, one can only guess?


The water here in some local areas will pull the zinc out and you will have issues. Zurn put out a flyer about there brass fittings here some years back it simply said not to use them and if you did they would not be held accountable for failure.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Those reasons are why I use Wirsbo EP fittings, and am staring to use Viega polymer press fittings.


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> The water here in some local areas will pull the zinc out and you will have issues. Zurn put out a flyer about there brass fittings here some years back it simply said not to use them and if you did they would not be held accountable for failure.


I'm not so sure that the water is to blame for this type of occurrence. IMHO if it were only water, would it not effect ALL the homes in an area
having the same water qualities??? It has been discussed in many forums regarding grounding faults with electrical systems
tied to plumbing pipes. This makes the "hit and miss" causes with this phenomenon more plausible than just blaming it on the water.
I'll try to link to an example and edit this post.
http://inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Copper_Pipes.htm#CPholes

This was a good read...


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

If the the joint was soldered, No water would have been in contact in the point of failure.


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

Will said:


> If the the joint was soldered? No water would have be in contact in the pint of failure.


That's an excellent point Will ;-)


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

bighutch said:


> hard water ,will destroy anything.


Well... ya hutching and posting without proper introduction??


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## plumbing ninja (Jan 15, 2012)

Could it be a combination of issues rather than one isolated problem?
Well/Bore water supply?
Casting quality and material composition of valve?
Disinfecting method at WTP?


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Was that hard or soft copper? Going back and looking at the photos the copper 90 looks to be higher than the inlet on the valve body. Could off been in a bind, I say stress fracture or excessive flux


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

What was it mounted to? I have a seeking suspicion it was metal the Picts show corrosion on both sides at the same spot. The common thing is the distance away from the mounting bracket. The symptoms led me to believe it to be low zinc in the brass,but one other thing acts the same it is electrolysis the current flows threw the metals sense the copper is more pure it isn't effected as much. The brass is a mixture of elements so it is harder for it to stay together. The current ever so slowly breaks the elements apart one is zinc which makes the brass that is left brittle I do believe this is your problem.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Here are two examples of dezincification. This is what happened on the rp10000 valve body. 

After reading more on this thread and doing a little research, likely due to electrolysis.


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## bigduke6 (Sep 8, 2011)

hard water is a killer on brass,even if it isgoing threw a water softner!! also dissimilar metals?? not a good thing!!!

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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Found this one a week ago. Same scenario but only two years old.. Delta engineers have requested the valves for testing. I'll report back what they determine.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Probably low lead content in brass.lol


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## bigduke6 (Sep 8, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> Found this one a week ago. Same scenario but only two years old.. Delta engineers have requested the valves for testing. I'll report back what they determine.


How was that strapped in? Dissimiliar metals?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

bigduke6 said:


> How was that strapped in? Dissimiliar metals?


Mounting bracket on valve screwed to 2x4. Solid as a rock. 100% copper from the meter and throughout the house.


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## bigduke6 (Sep 8, 2011)

it has nothing to do with d.s. metals!!! im thinking pressure coming threw the cartridge? any prv in this house?? is there other shower valves in the house if so,do they look like that?? cartridge metal?? now this is going to bug the hell out of me!!! sorry just thinking out loud.

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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Never checked the pressure. Delta's cartridges do not fair well at pressures over 90psi. 

If the houses had excessive pressure, the faucets would have been dripping...but they weren't.


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## bigduke6 (Sep 8, 2011)

i was looking at ur original post, pic #7. that looks exactly how my garden hose looks like at the coupling of the hoses. pulled on the hose to tight pulled apart the coupling!! my water is hard and goes threw a softner!!! the hose was old tho!!! maybe im on something!!! lol

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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Its Delta, what did ya expected??


Oh now. Delta is a good brand in my book. I know you are a Moentrol guy but they too have their issues just like all brands.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> Never checked the pressure. Delta's cartridges do not fair well at pressures over 90psi.
> 
> If the houses had excessive pressure, the faucets would have been dripping...but they weren't.


79 pis is the max pressure that is allowed by code but I think it has something to do with bleeding of the zinc out


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

wyrickmech said:


> 79 pis is the max pressure that is allowed by code but I think it has something to do with bleeding of the zinc out


Yep, anything over 80psi is a violation but some fixtures handle the excess better than others. Once you start getting close to 100psi, most Delta Monitors act like a pressure relief valve.


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## bigduke6 (Sep 8, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> Yep, anything over 80psi is a violation but some fixtures handle the excess better than others. Once you start getting close to 100psi, most Delta Monitors act like a pressure relief valve.


WAS I ON THE RIGHT TRACK BOSS??

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