# Moen Posi Temp Shower Valve dilimma



## srloren (Nov 19, 2014)

I have a wonderful family (Mom and Dad and 4 kids) renting a single family home with a BW 50 Gallon Water Heater that has an older model Moen Posi-Temp Shower valve installed. Even with the water shortage, they like to take longer showers than the water heater can supply. I suspect that they have the water heater turned up to more than 140 degrees but will verify that when I go there today. I recently installed the valve and told them to call me if it is too hot or not hot enough. Yesterday she sends me a text that the water is too hot or too cold and not much adjustment for a satisfactory temperature. I am going by with my temperature gauge to show her husband how to adjust the valve to get it just right for this family. I now understand why some landlords charge more for a large family as they are going to wear out the water heater and other things quicker and cost more to repair than a couple or single person. My goal is to get them to use lless water but given the age of the kids, it might be wishful thinking. Any suggestions on a solution for this family and the property owner? They really are a great family and I want to do right by them and the owner. TIA


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

It's a good call on the plumber's part to show the customer how to adjust the setting for temperature on the W/H rather than actually doing it. 

I leave them at the factory setting of 120 F. I will show someone how to raise or lower the temperature setting, but I won't do it for them.


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## srloren (Nov 19, 2014)

You must be familiar with that law suit a few years back. Lots of liability out there.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

When I do an inspection on a water heater I always check the temp, here legal for residential is 120-130. I not it on my pass sticker on water heater and plumber and I initial it.


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## Wolfe Seacoast (Jan 23, 2014)

...has an older model Moen Posi-Temp Shower valve installed...Yesterday she sends me a text that the water is too hot or too cold and not much adjustment for a satisfactory temperature. 

I would be looking at that Posi-Temp cartridge. Set limiters for full range see what you get. 
Suspect the balancing feature is sticking.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Wolfe Seacoast said:


> ...has an older model Moen Posi-Temp Shower valve installed...Yesterday she sends me a text that the water is too hot or too cold and not much adjustment for a satisfactory temperature.
> 
> I would be looking at that Posi-Temp cartridge. *Set limiters for full range see what you get. *
> Suspect the balancing feature is sticking.


Setting the temperature limit too high where scalding temperature water may be encountered is a liability risk for the plumber as well, which should be avoided.

Yes... The balancing spool should be checked for proper operation but as stated the problem is probably more likely to be insufficient supply. If the tank is operated at an elevated temperature a device such as "Cash Acme's Tank Booster" should be installed to prevent scalding.


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## Nathan901 (Feb 11, 2012)

Pop in a new cartridge and be done with it for a few years. The balancing spool inside those cartridges are notorious for sticking if not used for a period of time.


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## srloren (Nov 19, 2014)

I believe I spoke with someone at Moen a year ago or so and he told me to soak the cartridge in vinegar and water, 50% of each and let is soak for 6 hours or so and rinse it off then lube it up and install it. It is supposed to allow the balancing mechanism to function properly... Has anyone tried this?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

srloren said:


> I believe I spoke with someone at Moen a year ago or so and he told me to soak the cartridge in vinegar and water, 50% of each and let is soak for 6 hours or so and rinse it off then lube it up and install it. It is supposed to allow the balancing mechanism to function properly... Has anyone tried this?


I doubt it...
Considering that a new cartridge is about $40...
And the gaskets on the cartridge usually get ripped up pulling it...

Also how would you bill that, and what customer wants their water off for 6 hours?

I've never done it and never will...


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## Pacificpipes (Oct 1, 2013)

I would charge more for the cleaning than installing a new one. You will also save yourself a call back.


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## Plumbducky (Jun 12, 2010)

Just replace the cartridge and be done. No worries about it then.


Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## paultheplumber1 (May 1, 2014)

I have an old timer customer. After i shut off his summer cottage for winter he comes back down and picks up the 2 symmons TA-10 spindles, brings them home and soaks them in a vinegar solution all winter long. He drops them off at the house the day before the scheduled turn on. I have never replaced those cartrage in the 8 years I've been doing his work.


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## srloren (Nov 19, 2014)

paultheplumber1 said:


> I have an old timer customer. After i shut off his summer cottage for winter he comes back down and picks up the 2 symmons TA-10 spindles, brings them home and soaks them in a vinegar solution all winter long. He drops them off at the house the day before the scheduled turn on. I have never replaced those cartrage in the 8 years I've been doing his work.


6 hours is plenty in my area as it cleans the minerals and leaves you with a shiny cartridge. Symmons has been around for a long time and have a very good system but you do need to know how to disassemble them to clean with vinegar when mineral deposits build up and prevent the valve from functioning properly. Plumbers need to consider installing shower valves with stops on them so they can isolate the valve without shutting the entire water service to the home or units. You guys know what I am referring to.


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## Nathan901 (Feb 11, 2012)

Screwdriver stops!


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## BOBBYTUCSON (Feb 8, 2013)

dont ever adjust the temp on tank for customer ! and just replace old cartridge with new positemp. and when i have a hard time pulling it out , out comes my 40 dollar kona puller


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

paultheplumber1 said:


> I have an old timer customer. After i shut off his summer cottage for winter he comes back down and picks up the 2 symmons TA-10 spindles, brings them home and soaks them in a vinegar solution all winter long. He drops them off at the house the day before the scheduled turn on. I have never replaced those cartrage in the 8 years I've been doing his work.


In such a situation I would recommend almost the same thing...
The Symmons spindles would probably not survive that much inactivity, but I definitely would only leave it in the vinegar for 6 hours or so as srloren suggested.

Vinegar is a weak solution of acetic acid...


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

In response the the OP I have to disagree that the usage has much of an impact on how long a water heater will last. Unless you are on a true closed system with no ET. 

The reason you need to charge more for large families is because kids will destroy your house. I have a client with a nice rental property, the kids there have cost him a few thousand dollars. They flooded the bathroom from clogging the toilet and claimed it was a plumbing leak. A few days later a kid stuck a stick in the ac, breaking the fan and ruining the motor. I believe he said they had done some other damage in the short time they had lived there.


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## srloren (Nov 19, 2014)

plumberkc said:


> In response the the OP I have to disagree that the usage has much of an impact on how long a water heater will last. Unless you are on a true closed system with no ET.
> 
> The reason you need to charge more for large families is because kids will destroy your house. I have a client with a nice rental property, the kids there have cost him a few thousand dollars. They flooded the bathroom from clogging the toilet and claimed it was a plumbing leak. A few days later a kid stuck a stick in the ac, breaking the fan and ruining the motor. I believe he said they had done some other damage in the short time they had lived there.


I believe you have changed the subject to tenant selection, which is an art in itself. Actually you made my point that the more kids you have the faster things wear out because of more use than a couple or single tenant.. Thanks for your opinion though.


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## HonestPlumb (Jan 25, 2015)

plumberkc- If it is a regular storage type water heater, the more usage the more it is going to maintain temp. That is what tends to obviously make it wear out faster. The glass liner will be subject to that much more heating, the gas or oil control valve will be worked more, leading to a possible failure. Also the thermal couple is going to get carbon build up or bun out faster. I agree with OP that it makes more sense to replace the Posi-Temp cartridge, rather than soaking. Agree, the vinegar is a mild acid. I had a Posi-Temp that had been in so long, I had to break it out in little pieces to replace. I tried my "easy out" tool and it just broke the cartridge. Wound up having to use a small sharp wood chisel to get all the pieces way in. Carefully not to score the body of the valve. New "curse words" were learned that day !!


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