# New tank less install



## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

This is a new tank less install I did a week ago. Please let me know what you would have done different. Thanks!


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

I wouldn't have used push tight fittings. Why didn't ya sweat it up? Lotta wasted money


And you think propress is hack...


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

trac pipe exposed, oh hell no


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

Drip leg not long enough, everything else is A OK


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## Dpeckplb (Sep 20, 2013)

Other than the drip leg lenght and Shark Bites. I looks good. Id have spaced everything out a bit more (I'm a perfectionist) but thats it. I like that everything is square and not just all thrown up.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

moonapprentice said:


> Please let me know what you would have done different. Thanks!


You should leave the heater where it's at and replace all the pipes you installed, it's bad and makes me angry. 

Somebody paid money for a pro to install and look at what they got! Smh.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Good heavens, the sharkbites....... Not a professional look. Pipes are too close, drip leg is too short, expansion tank should not be hanging. A bit of backfall on the pvc pipe.


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## wyplumber (Feb 14, 2013)

It can't be his install...

No one on this site would post a picture of that and take credit for it.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Yeah I'm not sure why you keep posting pictures of **** work. Don't you know how to solder?


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## Dpeckplb (Sep 20, 2013)

Unfortunatly The trade seems to be turning towards the lazy side. I love to solder and do manifold/boiler work in copper. It goes back to my perfectionist side. We don't know the story behind the shark bites, maybe the customer wanted them(I'd refuse, but I can be a stubborn azzhole). I was first appenticed by a perfectionist so if i do something that isn't perfect or the way i'd do it, I do it my way. No harkary allowed.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I have re-piped a small slab house in sharkbite overhead above the ceiling one time because I did not trust my wirsbo expander and it was too much of a gamble and too difficult to work in the attic with the expander and I did not trust the fittings not to leak... Shark bites worked fine for the application

your work looks pretty straight but in that situation soldering would have been a whole lot cheaper... 

if you counted up all the fittings and I count about 45 of them
you probably used an extra $300 alone in sharkbites ..

but if you factored them into the job and it saved you a few hours
then it is what it is..............

.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

no flex gas or sharkbites at my shop. but, i am not your boss. other than that, it looks as good as it can with what you worked with.


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## Donahue756 (Feb 25, 2012)

Looks good, I like that you used cooper and it's a pretty clean install. That being said I hate that you used push fits, they make me sick to my stomach. Every time I go to the big box store (to get wood screws or rags) i see all the DIY ers picking them up, and when customers call in and say all you have to do is push pipe together and its that much $$$ it brings down our trade. Sorry for the rant I just had a slow week and the big box store is packed every day. Plus I just cleaned a tub drain, and offered to replace the toilet fill valve and flapper for $25.00 Dollars as a add on (he's a repeat) and the customer refused cause he can DO IT HIM SELF for cheaper ( I checked 9.50 at HD) sorry but every day seems like the trade is getting easier and cheaper to do. I wonder why we can't find skilled tradesman to employee, it's not challenging enough and they don't want to deal with the Diy home owners. Again sorry I had a bad diyer week, I am losing my mind :blink:


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Donahue756 said:


> Looks good, I like that you used cooper and it's a pretty clean install. That being said I hate that you used push fits, they make me sick to my stomach. Every time I go to the big box store (to get wood screws or rags) i see all the DIY ers picking them up, and when customers call in and say all you have to do is push pipe together and its that much $$$ it brings down our trade. Sorry for the rant I just had a slow week and the big box store is packed every day. Plus I just cleaned a tub drain, and offered to replace the toilet fill valve and flapper for $25.00 Dollars as a add on (he's a repeat) and the customer refused cause he can DO IT HIM SELF for cheaper ( I checked 9.50 at HD) sorry but every day seems like the trade is getting easier and cheaper to do. I wonder why we can't find skilled tradesman to employee, it's not challenging enough and they don't want to deal with the Diy home owners. Again sorry I had a bad diyer week, I am losing my mind :blink:



You made a huge mistake to offer the replacement for only $25. Wait until you get a callback on an add on like that. 

Dropping your price that low obviously doesn't have an impact on the HO's decision. You should take that as a lesson and never discount you services that much.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

I would have spaced pipe out more I think that would have made it look a lot cleaner. I wouldnt have used shark bite or whatever fitting you used. Just use copper sweat. As for expansion tank I cant tell its hanging or strapped or not? Drip leg too short? dont know your code we dont use them at all. Trac pipe exposed, does it have a union?
Keep at it its a challenge to learn this trade if you dont have a journeyman to teach you. Some good advice on here too.


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## Donahue756 (Feb 25, 2012)

" Plumberkc" I know but it was a repeat customer that I personally been to many times "for drain cleaning only" and wanted to "loss leader" him to the plumbing repair side even with a two year warranty he refused, it just put me into a bad mood and I need to get over it.


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## Donahue756 (Feb 25, 2012)

"Ranting" I subscribe to three plumbing magazines and each one is plastered with push to fit fitting ads. I guess am just having a hard time with these cause what first started me in the trade "what pulled me into the trade" was that I would one day solder copper pipes together with a open flame, at 17 that was so cool and I loved it so I started my apprenticeship. As a new apprentice a plumber looks less attractive when all he has to do is push pipes together and their done. But this is me talking now a 29 year old master plumber dealing with now a day issues. Don't get me started with Amazon, Angie's list, and groupons.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Wow moon. You must be pulling our chain on this one. Rip it out


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

jeffreyplumber said:


> I would have spaced pipe out more I think that would have made it look a lot cleaner. I wouldnt have used shark bite or whatever fitting you used. Just use copper sweat. As for expansion tank I cant tell its hanging or strapped or not? Drip leg too short? dont know your code we dont use them at all. Trac pipe exposed, does it have a union?
> Keep at it its a challenge to learn this trade if you dont have a journeyman to teach you. Some good advice on here too.


Expansion tank isn't supposed to be install hanging down. On the side or uprite but not hangng down.


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

How about the support hangers I used?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

dhal22 said:


> Expansion tank isn't supposed to be install hanging down. On the side or uprite but not hangng down.



Wrong, read manufacture instructions


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## Grimmeute (May 8, 2012)

My first tank less install almost finished, cant find finished pics. Storage tank is a 40gal HWT gutted to save 2k on a normal storage tank.


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## Plumber patt (Jan 26, 2011)

plumbdrum said:


> Wrong, read manufacture instructions


Expansion tank can most definetly be installed hanging upside down like that. The real problem with the expansion tank install, is the lack of drain and isolation valve.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Grimmeute said:


> My first tank less install almost finished, cant find finished pics. Storage tank is a 40gal HWT gutted to save 2k on a normal storage tank.



Nice clean job, nice units. If I could make 1 suggestion it would be to change out your gas shutoff to a full port valve. Even with the negative pressure gas valve that type of shutoff could choke out your gas flow. But nice job


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Plumber patt said:


> Expansion tank can most definetly be installed hanging upside down like that. The real problem with the expansion tank install, is the lack of drain and isolation valve.



That's what I meant it can be and is recommended by the manufacture to be installed in that direction.


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## Plumber patt (Jan 26, 2011)

plumbdrum said:


> That's what I meant it can be and is recommended by the manufacture to be installed in that direction.


yes, but they can also be installed on their sides or facing up too.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Donahue756 said:


> "Ranting" I subscribe to three plumbing magazines and each one is plastered with push to fit fitting ads. I guess am just having a hard time with these cause what first started me in the trade "what pulled me into the trade" was that I would one day solder copper pipes together with a open flame, at 17 that was so cool and I loved it so I started my apprenticeship. As a new apprentice a plumber looks less attractive when all he has to do is push pipes together and their done. But this is me talking now a 29 year old master plumber dealing with now a day issues. Don't get me started with Amazon, Angie's list, and groupons.












I'm with you. Big box stores are literally taking away work from plumbers. 

It's not only against us as licensed plumbers. There are do-it-yourself legal zoom websites. Paralegals help people prepare documents to file in court instead of hiring an attorney. 

I do some work for banks that have foreclosed on properties. Some of the homes are in rough shape. Don't you know that even the banks use un-licensed guys to install water heaters?.....:furious:....I only get the W/H install when a permit is needed or the 'plumber' installing the cabinets and painting thinks the plumbing is above his skill level.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Plumber patt said:


> yes, but they can also be installed on their sides or facing up too.



The problem with placing it on its side is the extra work of supporting it


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## Grimmeute (May 8, 2012)

Thank you for that insight Plumdrum.
That was the smallest setup in that home, that was for the kitchen only, there is 2 more mech rooms with 4 tank less each total of 10 in that home. Got some unfinished pics of those to if you like with pics of the manifolds the 2' copper go to. I think finished pics are on my external HD that bit the dirt.


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

I need to quit using the crappy copper fittings & start using sharkbites. All that time I'm wasting!!


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

Is that a threaded cpvc transition fitting I see?


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

Nope. Brass threads.


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

Nice


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## Wolfe Seacoast (Jan 23, 2014)

plumbdrum said:


> Wow moon. You must be pulling our chain on this one. Rip it out



That's a whole lot of Sharkbite fittings. 

Must be close to $30 bucks in scrap right here😄


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## themavinator (Apr 15, 2009)

Check that pvc branch coming off the stack! Sweeet!&#55357;&#56489;


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

*Tankless my butt*

No one notices that the crappy out of business Quietside unit is connected as a boiler?

Look, its got a watts 9D RPZ and is piped to 2-1/2" or 3" CI pipe

Is it a boiler installed improperly or a tankless installed as a boiler that wont work? Which is it? Good luck with heating the house with that mess!


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> No one notices that the crappy out of business Quietside unit is connected as a boiler?
> 
> Look, its got a watts 9D RPZ and is piped to 2-1/2" or 3" CI pipe
> 
> Is it a boiler installed improperly or a tankless installed as a boiler that wont work? Which is it? Good luck with heating the house with that mess!


Good to see you here again, ZL700...


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

rjbphd said:


> Good to see you here again, ZL700...


 Thanks RJ,

Lurked a bit but been very busy


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

ZL700 said:


> No one notices that the crappy out of business Quietside unit is connected as a boiler?
> 
> Look, its got a watts 9D RPZ and is piped to 2-1/2" or 3" CI pipe
> 
> Is it a boiler installed improperly or a tankless installed as a boiler that wont work? Which is it? Good luck with heating the house with that mess!



Just to clarify a watts 9d is not a RPZ


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Grimmeute said:


> My first tank less install almost finished, cant find finished pics. Storage tank is a 40gal HWT gutted to save 2k on a normal storage tank.


I'm still installing Eternals, not many else in Metro Atlanta. Good looking install.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

You are correct, I was being lazy
"dual check valves with atmospheric drain"


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Plumber patt said:


> Expansion tank can most definetly be installed hanging upside down like that. The real problem with the expansion tank install, is the lack of drain and isolation valve.


Eternal heaters are very gas sensitive, I always use a full port ball valve.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

ZL700 said:


> You are correct, I was being lazy
> "dual check valves with atmospheric drain"



I come from the land of Watts. Lol


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

Is it any shark bite left on HD? By the way, I didn't read any comment about this....:whistling2:


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## wyplumber (Feb 14, 2013)

dhal22 said:


> Eternal heaters are very gas sensitive, I always use a full port ball valve.



The only eternal I have ever came across had 1/2 trac pipe ran to it for about 80 feet.

I was just there replacing a pump but the owner Said it runs fine as far as he can tell.


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## Grimmeute (May 8, 2012)

My supplier quite selling them. said Eternal product support was lacking in something or another. Thought they worked great was amazed when I had a battery of 4 running this customers master shower. Never ending hot water. He wanted me to install 38 heads all with the flow restricter removed, he wanted them to spray harder. Its a freaking car wash not a shower. Shower is 10'x16' running 4 Kohler DTV's systems and three 30KW steam genies. Eternals never missed a beat with everything going, even when I turned on his 2 daughters showers, one with 22 heads the other had 15 heads. Just wanted to make sure by chance they all came home and wanted showers at same time.


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## Grimmeute (May 8, 2012)

Gargalaxy said:


> Is it any shark bite left on HD? By the way, I didn't read any comment about this....:whistling2:


I think themav pointed that out in earlier post. I think the piping job and sharkbites keep the eyes from the rest of the pic. I get a head ache trying to follow the piping routes, cant look at it long.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

http://www.contractortalk.com/f9/gator-bite-fittings-feed-back-please-14095/index6/

Suckers!!!!!!!


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## Grimmeute (May 8, 2012)

The unfinished battery of 4 pic. Like I said I cant find my finished photos. Dang WD external HD took a dump think they are on it.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Grimmeute said:


> The unfinished battery of 4 pic. Like I said I cant find my finished photos. Dang WD external HD took a dump think they are on it.


Awesome! But those fooki useless die electric unoins!


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> Expansion tank isn't supposed to be install hanging down. On the side or uprite but not hangng down.


Well guess Ill have to research that one. Ive plumbed personaly and or installed tank type water heaters in at leasta hundred homes with the threaded end of the tank up. never been called.


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## Grimmeute (May 8, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Awesome! But those fooki useless die electric unoins!


Your right I hate them, I usually remove the Galv nips and replace with brass but these tanks were almost 3k and was told by supplier not to remove them, it would void the warranty. I'll do it to a $400-$500 HWT but not these AO Smith storage tanks.


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## Grimmeute (May 8, 2012)

gear junkie said:


> http://www.contractortalk.com/f9/gator-bite-fittings-feed-back-please-14095/index6/
> 
> Suckers!!!!!!!


LOL those pics Moonie put up are from 2011 post.
What you tring to pull Moonie?


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

hroark2112 said:


> I need to quit using the crappy copper fittings & start using sharkbites. All that time I'm wasting!!


hroark2112 That looks like a clean install ! But are you allowed to run plastic tand p lines where you work. Im sure we cant run plastic directly to a wh hot cold or tand p . its a sure fail here!


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## srloren (Nov 19, 2014)

Donahue756 said:


> Looks good, I like that you used cooper and it's a pretty clean install. That being said I hate that you used push fits, they make me sick to my stomach. Every time I go to the big box store (to get wood screws or rags) i see all the DIY ers picking them up, and when customers call in and say all you have to do is push pipe together and its that much $$$ it brings down our trade. Sorry for the rant I just had a slow week and the big box store is packed every day. Plus I just cleaned a tub drain, and offered to replace the toilet fill valve and flapper for $25.00 Dollars as a add on (he's a repeat) and the customer refused cause he can DO IT HIM SELF for cheaper ( I checked 9.50 at HD) sorry but every day seems like the trade is getting easier and cheaper to do. I wonder why we can't find skilled tradesman to employee, it's not challenging enough and they don't want to deal with the Diy home owners. Again sorry I had a bad diyer week, I am losing my mind :blink:


Your story reminds me of the 60s when No-Hub replaced lead and oakum. I said that pretty soon all a guy needs to do the trade is a pick up truck without the lead pot. Then ABS came out and I said all you need is a hack saw and can of glue. Yes progress replaces the need for some of our former skills. Shark bites still have one flaw that you can't over come. O-rings. Plus they are expensive. I still like copper but that is just me.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

jeffreyplumber said:


> Well guess Ill have to research that one. Ive plumbed personaly and or installed tank type water heaters in at leasta hundred homes with the threaded end of the tank up. never been called.



Trust me your fine


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

jeffreyplumber said:


> hroark2112 That looks like a clean install ! But are you allowed to run plastic tand p lines where you work. Im sure we cant run plastic directly to a wh hot cold or tand p . its a sure fail here!



I recently have done some research on cpvc for relief valve discharge. Charlotte plastic install Manuel address this, it is approved through the manufacture as long as they have metal threads


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Donahue756 said:


> Offered to replace the toilet fill valve and flapper for $25.00 Dollars as a add on (he's a repeat) and the customer refused cause he can DO IT HIM SELF for cheaper ( I checked 9.50 at HD)


Good Gawd! You are doing something very wrong when you can't even give away your work!

That's almost 1/2 of what I'd charge for marked up parts, never mind labor...
As a stand alone job I'd charge about $250 and as a discounted addon job it would be about $205...

The reason is profit which I need to make on every job as it also covers warranty callbacks.

I've never lost money on the job I didn't do...

Now why don't you start making money or get out of the trade and quit hurting the rest of us with your insane pricing...


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## srloren (Nov 19, 2014)

Redwood said:


> Good Gawd! You are doing something very wrong when you can't even give away your work!
> 
> That's almost 1/2 of what I'd charge for marked up parts, never mind labor...
> As a stand alone job I'd charge about $250 and as a discounted addon job it would be about $205...
> ...


 The first time I saw a Reeve's Guide in the mid 50's, I thought wow, how can they get away with charging those prices. But even then as Reeves was teaching Plumber's the true cost of business, Reeves pricing was a lot more than most would charge. That was when a 1/2" galvanized elbow was 10 cent each. Most of the young guys in the trade were wearing tennis shoes and didn't take time to think, just get er in. All of you guys know that plumbing is a very competitive market and it is damn tough to make it, pay your taxes and wind up with a profit. At least that is the way I saw it. Your area may differ and you may be able charge what ever you feel you can get away with but when you carry it too far, that is no way to build a clientele. Just my 2 cents.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

So did Moonapprentice get banned for posting someone else's pictures and trying to pass them off as his own? Pretty sure others have been banned for far less.


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## Plumber patt (Jan 26, 2011)

We've all been had...


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## Grimmeute (May 8, 2012)

plumberkc said:


> So did Moonapprentice get banned for posting someone else's pictures and trying to pass them off as his own? Pretty sure others have been banned for far less.



Not sure. 
Like to know what he was trying to pull though.


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

Maybe, by some great coincidence, Moon was actually the plumber in Norfolk who told Rose that sharkbites are better than copper.


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

Of course... eyeballs better than any levels or all weather medium vol (green label) one step better and faster than primer and glue/cement (two steps)....


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Cajunhiker said:


> Maybe, by some great coincidence, Moon was actually the plumber in Norfolk who told Rose that sharkbites are better than copper.


In his first post he said he did it last week.


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## wyplumber (Feb 14, 2013)

plumberkc said:


> So did Moonapprentice get banned for posting someone else's pictures and trying to pass them off as his own? Pretty sure others have been banned for far less.


I doubt he will. He is one of the few guys that can post one little picture and the thread can go on for 80 pages.


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

???


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## Plumbbum0203 (Dec 14, 2011)

moonapprentice said:


> ???



Was that really your work?


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## Plumbbum0203 (Dec 14, 2011)

I thought he was in wisconson.


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## Grimmeute (May 8, 2012)

moonapprentice said:


> ???



Seriously?


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## Grimmeute (May 8, 2012)

plumberkc said:


> In his first post he said he did it last week.



took 4 yrs to finish, my guess


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

gear junkie said:


> http://www.contractortalk.com/f9/gator-bite-fittings-feed-back-please-14095/index6/ Suckers!!!!!!!


Scroll toward the bottom and look at pics from Rose of Norfolk, VA - posted in 2011.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Bagged moonie, I knew you were pulling our chains


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## Plumbbum0203 (Dec 14, 2011)




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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

wyplumber said:


> It can't be his install... No one on this site would post a picture of that and take credit for it.


Prophetic


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

plumbdrum said:


> Wow moon. You must be pulling our chain on this one. Rip it out


Boy, you called it out correctly


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Cajunhiker said:


> Maybe, by some great coincidence, Moon was actually the plumber in Norfolk who told Rose that sharkbites are better than copper.


Is he really a plumber yet?? Or still a moonie apprentice?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Okay. This is my work and damn proud of it.. go ahead beat me up..


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## Plumbbum0203 (Dec 14, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Okay. This is my work and damn proud of it.. go ahead beat me up..



Other than the vent being a little flat I say looks good.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

rjbphd said:


> Okay. This is my work and damn proud of it.. go ahead beat me up..


hats off to you. you took the extra time to paint the gas pipe yellow. you are a true pro.:thumbsup:


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## Grimmeute (May 8, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Okay. This is my work and damn proud of it.. go ahead beat me up..


LMFAO I spit out a good sip of my L.I.T. from that post RJ

OMG Alcohol burn bad coming out your nose


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

rjbphd said:


> Okay. This is my work and damn proud of it.. go ahead beat me up..


...


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

jeffreyplumber said:


> hroark2112 That looks like a clean install ! But are you allowed to run plastic tand p lines where you work. Im sure we cant run plastic directly to a wh hot cold or tand p . its a sure fail here!


We are allowed for the T&P, although I normally don't. If it were going anywhere but to the floor, I'd have done it in copper.


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## Texan (Feb 21, 2015)

T n P on the cold side!


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

Texan said:


> T n P on the cold side!


Huh?

Where?


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