# Bonding csst



## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I did an inspection last week for a WH, I told the plumber the existing csst needed to be bonded. I went for a final and this is what I found.









It should be ok right ??


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Not being an electrician, I don't fully understand that trade. Isn't bonding making the gas piping electrically connected to the home's grounding system? I'll take a stab at the picture and say it's wrong. The grounding clamp should be on galvanized piping, not on that CSST. But then again, I'm not qualified in that area. Curious to see other responses.


----------



## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

This is what gas title has to say, which is the manufacturer in the pic

http://www.gastite.com/ca/products/gastite/clamps/


----------



## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

That not good. I have been informed that when bonded. It should be attached on rigid pipe, like plumb drums link. But also upstream of the first csst connection. Not anywhere in between. I have no references to this, but just he say she say.


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

plumbdrum said:


> I did an inspection last week for a WH, I told the plumber the existing csst needed to be bonded. I went for a final and this is what I found.
> View attachment 70482
> 
> 
> ...


 ...... *Wrong ... Look here and read

http://www.gastite.com/downloads/pdfs/TB2010-01.pdf

 *


----------



## plumber11928 (Feb 18, 2015)

That's so wrong. Bond clamp must be on rigid pipe upstream of the csst. wiring must go back to the panel to the ground bar, or to a ground rod. If going to the panel an Licensed Electrician must make the connection. The only connection the plumber can make is to a ground rod outside the building.


----------



## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

plumber11928 said:


> That's so wrong. Bond clamp must be on rigid pipe upstream of the csst. wiring must go back to the panel to the ground bar, or to a ground rod. If going to the panel an Licensed Electrician must make the connection. The only connection the plumber can make is to a ground rod outside the building.



I know it's wrong, that's why I failed it, but I'm also not the electrical inspector. So I failed the gas installation, electrical inspector will take it from here


----------



## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

My it "should be right" comment was meant to be facetious.


----------



## Ncplumber84 (Dec 30, 2014)

Where I work we put clamp on gas meter then run copper wire to ground clamp on the ground wire coming off the outside electric meter.


----------



## Ncplumber84 (Dec 30, 2014)

I think we use #4 or # 6 copper wire


----------



## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

This csst stuff is one of those things that yall discuss that I'm glad we don't install.


----------



## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

chonkie said:


> This csst stuff is one of those things that yall discuss that I'm glad we don't install.


I personally hate the crap.


----------



## plumber11928 (Feb 18, 2015)

plumbdrum said:


> My it "should be right" comment was meant to be facetious.



Yes I know you were being facetious. My " that's so wrong " was being Jocular. You mean you didn't hear the tone in my voice. :laughing:


----------



## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Well it is for naught. If you have natural Gas you have lost your good ground at the meter with the gaskets. You still have a ground, but bonding across the meter is the way to go. In my area Amerin will threaten to pull gas service if you bond across their meter.

It is also a waste if you have a plastic gas service. The epoxy coated "ell" does not meet the 10' long buried length required for a proper bond.

The csst bond should be made with any approved UL467 listed fitting. Then like in our trade must be made as tested and approved by the listing agency, whether it be to a fitting or hard pipe.

Flash Shield does not require additional bonding. 
Unlike Gastite®, there are no additional bonding requirements for FlashShield™ imposed by the manufacturer’s installation instructions. FlashShield™ is to be bonded in accordance with the National Electrical Code NFPA 70 Article 250.104 in the same manner as the minimum requirements for rigid metal piping. However, installers must always adhere to any local requirements that may conflict with these instructions.

This means in general "where likely to become energized". Since multiple other devices that have 110v or higher have a gas connection. These always have equipment bonds already to the gas vales which in tun bonds the system.

Now "Gastite" is another issues. Rigid component may also by the brass fitting.


Inherently when bonding (not grounding) it is not required but is good practice to take it back as far one can to the point of entry. If the system "faults" it will take the easiest path to ground which would then not be back through the whole system.


----------



## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Picture won't upload.......


----------



## mtfallsmikey (Jan 11, 2010)

plumbdrum said:


> I know it's wrong, that's why I failed it, but I'm also not the electrical inspector. So I failed the gas installation, electrical inspector will take it from here


 This confusion has gone on for several years now, NEC, IMC, and fuel/gas codes are not in alignment on this, I got to see it when I took recert classes last year for my Masters lic. here in Va.


----------



## Kleinfelterj (Jan 23, 2012)

The new csst pipe has a ground wire in the jacketing. I think it's called strike force


----------



## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

When I ran that, you can't see it in the pic, but I cut a hole in the jacket to get a good ground


----------



## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

Kleinfelterj said:


> The new csst pipe has a ground wire in the jacketing. I think it's called strike force


And it still doesn't work.

Supply houses in my area some have stopped selling any CSST products due to it still being subject to lighting strikes

On a side note, City I live in outlawed CSST a few years ago. They got sued by the CSST producers, and then it was legal so what they did was to put so many city admendments in the city code that no one install CSST.

I make lots of money on CSST especially when we have hail damage and the roofers go to town and nail strike the CSST. I did about 20 nail strikes last spring/summer from roofers


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TallCoolOne said:


> And it still doesn't work.
> 
> Supply houses in my area some have stopped selling any CSST products due to it still being subject to lighting strikes
> 
> ...


Wow! 

What the hell is the CSST being installed that close to the roof deck for?

Sounds like an installation error to me!:yes:


----------



## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Wow!
> 
> What the hell is the CSST being installed that close to the roof deck for?
> 
> Sounds like an installation error to me!:yes:


What was the point of this post?

Why do you have to use cartoons in your posts? I know why and I will tell you. If you didn't use them, nobody would know what the **** you are talking about.


----------



## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Redwood said:


> Wow!
> 
> What the hell is the CSST being installed that close to the roof deck for?
> 
> Sounds like an installation error to me!:yes:


I took the emoji out and it still makes sense.


----------



## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

chonkie said:


> I took the emoji out and it still makes sense.


But if you remove the second one, it doesn't make sense.



Redwood said:


> Wow!
> 
> What the hell is the CSST being installed that close to the roof deck for?
> 
> Sounds like an installation error to me!


See? He is stating something he knows nothing about.


----------



## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Still makes sense to me. I would agree that placing any type of plumbing material close enough to the deck for it to get nailed by a roofing nail is an installation error.


----------



## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

chonkie said:


> Still makes sense to me. I would agree that placing any type of plumbing material close enough to the deck for it to get nailed by a roofing nail is an installation error.


Except he was posting about something he never saw in a part of the world that he never worked in. If he had pictures at all angles, I'd agree, maybe, but without proof, his post was a waste...


----------



## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Plumber said:


> Except he was posting about something he never saw in a part of the world that he never worked in. If he had pictures at all angles, I'd agree, maybe, but without proof, his post was a waste...



What the hell does it matter what part of the world it's in?


----------



## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

plumbdrum said:


> What the hell does it matter what part of the world it's in?


Don't tell me Redwood knows every code in every state in every county in every city.

Enough of this fem passive aggression for a month or so. I got customers, family, and motorcycles to keep me interested.

Redwood, seriously? **** you.


----------



## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Plumber said:


> Don't tell me Redwood knows every code in every state in every county in every city.
> 
> Enough of this fem passive aggression for a month or so. I got customers, family, and motorcycles to keep me interested.
> 
> Redwood, seriously? **** you.



This has nothing to do with any state code, but it has all to do with the installer being certified in whatever manufacture of csst he/she is using. I am 100 percent sure all manufactures will cover strike protection. Are you just totally lacking ANY common sense on this topic?


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

We are required to have bonding on all gas pipe, not just GasPex.


----------



## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> We are required to have bonding on all gas pipe, not just GasPex.



Correct


----------



## fixitright (Jan 5, 2012)

I sense a bit of Cranky Pants in the forum of late..........


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

IPC Section 305 covers protection of plumbing pipes and components from physical damage. I'm sure any plumbing code worth the paper it is printed on would have similar measures, as well as the installation instructions of the CSST manufacturers...

Simple workmanship and installation error IMHO...

This is a pretty simple no brainer that any plumber would easily recognize...

Not something I'd want to argue against in a debate...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Yup, pretty simple fact, if there is a good chance of it getting damaged, do what you can to protect it from damage.


----------



## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Plumber, what's your problem? The whole point of this forum is getting different points of views from different people from around the country. Redwood gave his opinion and you jumped all over him. Would you have done the same if someone else or myself said the same exact thing? Probably not. I don't really care about whatever problem you have with him but to look for his posts just so you can talk **** makes you look like a troll *******. Keep it up and I'll start doing the same to you.


----------



## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Wow!
> 
> What the hell is the CSST being installed that close to the roof deck for?
> 
> Sounds like an installation error to me!:yes:


 It is almost always in the same spot. Right where the pipe goes down the wall to feed and appliance or main line.

I have the roofer peel back the roof/decking about 3foot by 3 foot square and we put a couple fitting and a 18 inch steel pipe so it can't happen again. Some do have pipe protection but just not enough, or maybe it was moved when the guys who put insulation in the house, Who knows.

Last year when I was on m CSST nail strike hot streak, we had 2 houses that had Parker CSST, I found out the CSST was purchased by Gastite and then discontinued, So no parts are available for Parker CSST if you see it.


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

A guy I know had a co-worker who ran the csst too close the ceiling in the garage, like, he c-clipped it against the wood. The next spring they re-roofed and later that night the two garage doors blew across the street when the modine gas heater kicked on.

I don't like csst, makes me nervous because stainless can crack not to mention it gets punctured easily. However we do use it and when we bond it electrically that clamp goes on the brass adapter, I think 10ga wire., usually to a ground rod the electricians pound in the ground. In the house I believe ground goes back to panel. Don't take my word on where the wire goes because the electricians run that but I am 100% sure the clamp goes on the brass adapter.

My experience with electrical design tells me the resistance of that thin wall csst is too great to properly dissipate an electrical charge with out a lot of heat. To figure out how much heat, use a multimeter to check the resistance in a section of pipe and use ohms law with say 120v to figure out the amount of power dissipated. And then think of how hot a 40w lightbulb gets.


----------



## Snowyman800 (Jan 7, 2016)

When we do FlashShield and it comes down the wall and I can't get far enough from the decking, I take a 2x4 and run it along the decking where the pipe will sit and screw it to the decking. After that I set nail guards on that and lay the pipe along it. That way it holds it an 1-1/2" off the decking at least and it has nail guards. The average roofing nail is only 1-1/4" so it won't come close to reaching when they come to do the roof or when it needs to be reroofed.


----------



## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Snowyman800 said:


> When we do FlashShield and it comes down the wall and I can't get far enough from the decking, I take a 2x4 and run it along the decking where the pipe will sit and screw it to the decking. After that I set nail guards on that and lay the pipe along it. That way it holds it an 1-1/2" off the decking at least and it has nail guards. The average roofing nail is only 1-1/4" so it won't come close to reaching when they come to do the roof or when it needs to be reroofed.


All that extra effort for that install you should have just use steel


----------



## Snowyman800 (Jan 7, 2016)

plumbdrum said:


> All that extra effort for that install you should have just use steel


Maybe so. But I'm not the one who decides what we install. My boss thinks it's more cost-effective to install FlashShield and that's what we use. So I do my best to protect whatever is installed, and that way it doesn't end up like all the other jobs people mentioned here. Safety is number one priority is what I always say at work....while I hang precariously from a 6' ladder with a right angle drill in one hand.


----------



## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Here in No central fla they want the csst bonded and the exterior exposed csst sleeved in pvc up to 8' or so..you can bond the csst on the exterior to a ground rod....we use the black sleeved garbage when using it...counter strike.....

There are no additional bonding requirements for TracPipe® CounterStrike® imposed by the manufacturer’s installation instructions. With TracPipe® CounterStrike®’s improved properties, TracPipe® CounterStrike® is to be bonded in accordance with current requirements of the National Electrical Code (NFPA 70), and the National Fuel Gas Code (NFPA 54), and with any local requirements that may be in excess of the national codes. This may result in the avoidance of additional bonding costs which are required for conventional CSST.


----------



## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

stillaround said:


> Here in No central fla they want the csst bonded and the exterior exposed csst sleeved in pvc up to 8' or so..you can bond the csst on the exterior to a ground rod....we use the black sleeved garbage when using it...counter strike.....
> 
> There are no additional bonding requirements for TracPipe® CounterStrike® imposed by the manufacturer’s installation instructions. With TracPipe® CounterStrike®’s improved properties, TracPipe® CounterStrike® is to be bonded in accordance with current requirements of the National Electrical Code (NFPA 70), and the National Fuel Gas Code (NFPA 54), and with any local requirements that may be in excess of the national codes. This may result in the avoidance of additional bonding costs which are required for conventional CSST.




I don't think I have seen any exterior csst where I am.


----------



## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

If installed you have to follow the things a lot of people never read....... Directions......

Strike plates (not stud guards) it has to move, never clamp tight (unless protected), oversize holes, etc.

Seen it installed to tight to allow movement if hit by a nail. Installer & Inspector should be catching this.

Flash Shield, is the only CSST tested to resist 95% of lighting strikes. This would include high static charges.FlashShield™ Flexible Gas Tubing has passed all requirements of ANSI LC1, which include testing for suitability for exposure of CSST piping systems to outdoor environments.

#6 bond, may be connected directly to "hard pipe" does not mandate direct connection to the CSST brass fitting with a max 75' run to the electrode system.


----------



## klempner (Mar 4, 2011)

Redwood is right. IS an installation error.

starting with 2015 IFGC, bonding can now attach anywhere ("metallic pipe, pipe fitting, or CSST fitting). Verbiage dropped from code requiring bonding upstream of first CSST fitting. 75' max jumper (starting with 2015 IFGC) apparently considered more important than "ahead of first downstream CSST fitting").

must bond to "electrical service grounding electrode system or, where provided, the lightning protection grounding electrode system." In other words, can't install a ground rod to comply, unless that ground rod also is connected to house grounding electrode system, and per 2015 IFGC Commentary, the 75' max would still apply. Which is to say, the only reason to add a ground rod is for "perceived additional protection."


----------



## klempner (Mar 4, 2011)

I run my drop out of schedule 40, then turn out into attic with 90 before attaching CSST. Nail proof.


----------



## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

rwh said:


> I don't think I have seen any exterior csst where I am.


I've seen it ran outside


----------



## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

Debo22 said:


> rwh said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think I have seen any exterior csst where I am.
> ...


Utility will shut you off right now around here


----------



## SHEPLMBR70 (Feb 25, 2016)

We would tie into the meter outside with it. Wardflex, and I am sure others make outside termination fittings. The only difference is the oring. Now they make CSST in a black jacket that is supposedly not required to be bonded. But in many jurisdictions, depending on the inspector, they will still make you do it.


----------



## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

SHEPLMBR70 said:


> We would tie into the meter outside with it. Wardflex, and I am sure others make outside termination fittings. The only difference is the oring. Now they make CSST in a black jacket that is supposedly not required to be bonded. But in many jurisdictions, depending on the inspector, they will still make you do it.


Flash guard or something. Propane might be cool outside. NG no go here


----------



## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

The newer version of Traq Pipe is called "counter strike" and is tested to be installed without bonding >>> http://www.tracpipe.com/CSST_Gas_Pipe_Products/CounterStrike_CSST/

Counter Strike is also rated for "outdoor use" >>> http://www.tracpipe.com/Customer-Content/WWW/CMS/files/OmegaFlex_FGP622_12_14.pdf

All must be installed exactly as the manufactures installation instructions require for whatever the application.

Now that said, unless a jurisdiction "specifically" prohibits its installation in an "adopted ordinance", not just because the local AHJ does not like it or know what it is, they have to accept it.

Provide them the documentation on it and go from there. How you approach may or may not piss them off. But if you stay out of their face good chance they will see the light. If they don't you can up the stakes and go to department heads, their board or legal department. Which a lot of people are afraid to do worrying about how they may be treated in the future, but that can be curved also.

Now a Public Purveyor such as the power company can be a little harder. Same thing applies to them, the caveat there is to find out the specs & testing they approve. If the product complies with all, a good chance you can force recognition with them also.

New products and materials hit the market all the time, often you have better luck providing the specs the material was tested to.


----------



## SHEPLMBR70 (Feb 25, 2016)

mtfallsmikey said:


> This confusion has gone on for several years now, NEC, IMC, and fuel/gas codes are not in alignment on this, I got to see it when I took recert classes last year for my Masters lic. here in Va.


Where are you in VA? Because I know out here, especially in Loudoun the inspectors make you ground, depending on their mood even using something like flash shield


----------

