# Master bath Remodel



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)




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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

WTF? I never saw a toilet lid with a smiley face. Is that just a sticker?


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I think its an advertisement for Toto, if I remember correctly.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Nice tile work. Is that at home?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Indiana Plumber said:


> Nice tile work. Is that at home?


 I thought the tile work kinda sucked....the diverter is right in the accent band and the smaller diamonds are non-existent near the shower valve. I installed all the componets as directed and had no idea of what the tile ould look like...only how thick it would be,and even that changed alittle. Over all its ok but I'm glad its not mine.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Call me crazy, but i would have set the tub before the tile went in.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Call me crazy, but i would have set the tub before the tile went in.


 
your crazy. we never do.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Call me crazy, but i would have set the tub before the tile went in.


 No No ,,,, set that tub in mortar and EASE it down to settle right on top of tile :thumbup::thumbup: NICE !


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Why the F would I want to do that? This way the tub will cover the cut edge of the tile,making a nice clean joint. If it were mine I wouldn't have put the faucet connections on the outside wall of the house were you have zero access unless you take the tub out....AND how the hell you gonna reach over and turn the faucet on?????? Your Not!!!! I warned them if it ever leaks the tub will hafta come out.........the answer..."We plan on selling it in a couple years".


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Cal said:


> No No ,,,, set that tub in mortar and EASE it down to settle right on top of tile :thumbup::thumbup: NICE !


 I put a 1/16" spacers under the tub between the tile,then caulk that joint....I go dapnutz


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Why the F would I want to do that? This way the tub will cover the cut edge of the tile,making a nice clean joint. If it were mine I wouldn't have put the faucet connections on the outside wall of the house were you have zero access unless you take the tub out....AND how the hell you gonna reach over and turn the faucet on?????? Your Not!!!! I warned them if it ever leaks the tub will hafta come out.........the answer..."We plan on selling it in a couple years".


you should see the stupid one I'm doing on monday. I have to take a pic of the ptrap. it will take a year and a half for this tub to drain. just wait and see. the overflow is built into the tub with this thin ass corrigated pipe coming out of it. The ptrap which is actually an s trap when its finished (illegal) is about 4 inches tall and about 3/4 o.d thick and about 6 inches long.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

what did you set the RTV? on the tile deck or did you drill the tub?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

GREENPLUM said:


> what did you set the RTV? on the tile deck or did you drill the tub?


The tileman is suppose to drill the holes,so thats what I'm waiting on. The painter was in his way. I said it should have been done before the paint. Just makes more dust. I dont drill holes in tile for faucets,the tile guy does it. All I do is mark the hole centers.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

I set mine in concretia as well, but i shim the tub 3/4 of an inch, then once the mud dries, remover the few shims, and the tile and backer board slip right underneath the puppy.


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## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

house plumber said:


> you should see the stupid one I'm doing on monday. I have to take a pic of the ptrap. it will take a year and a half for this tub to drain. just wait and see. the overflow is built into the tub with this thin ass corrigated pipe coming out of it. The ptrap which is actually an s trap when its finished (illegal) is about 4 inches tall and about 3/4 o.d thick and about 6 inches long.


 
Is this tub acryillic and free standing? I did one like it ....CRAP!


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> The tileman is suppose to drill the holes,so thats what I'm waiting on. The painter was in his way. I said it should have been done before the paint. Just makes more dust. I dont drill holes in tile for faucets,the tile guy does it. All I do is mark the hole centers.


I drill my own holes. Granite, Tile, I dont care. The holes go where, and the size that i need them to be. Your response is somewhat Lazy, and I must say, A bit irritating.:laughing:


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

para1 said:


> Is this tub acryillic and free standing? I did one like it ....CRAP!


 
yes it is.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

I'll drill tile, not granite....


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> I drill my own holes. Granite, Tile, I dont care. The holes go where, and the size that i need them to be. Your response is somewhat Lazy, and I must say, A bit irritating.:laughing:


 
we drill everything but granite


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

dont tell me you ran a pex tube to that toto drake:laughing:
looks good though:yes:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> I drill my own holes. Granite, Tile, I dont care. The holes go where, and the size that i need them to be. Your response is somewhat Lazy, and I must say, A bit irritating.:laughing:


 You call it lazy I call it smart. I dont hafta drilll them so I dont. If the holes are not the right size he can come correct it. I'ma shotcaller ya dig biotch:laughing:


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## SummPlumb (Feb 19, 2010)

WOW, everyone does it different. I set mine in a couple buckets of sheetrock mud. It creates a nice suction on the tub.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

SummPlumb said:


> WOW, everyone does it different. I set mine in a couple buckets of sheetrock mud. It creates a nice suction on the tub.


Really?!?! That works? I wouldn't have thought so.

Or are ya jokin? :laughing:

I set mine in concrete topping mix (called sand mix further east).


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

Nice looking job, TM. I was gonna give you a _wtf_ on the roman filler RI but I guess the boss is always right, huh? I don't think the tile looks bad at all (the shower). When she's all trimmed out I'm sure you'll be proud.



SummPlumb sed: said:


> WOW, everyone does it different. I set mine in a couple buckets of sheetrock mud. It creates a nice suction on the tub.


That's novel. I've used sprayfoam several times with good results. (Not the hardware store shyte, but the professional min exp stuff). Works remarkably well but I'm always concerned with fire and smoke ratings. Of course a fibreglass and acrylic unit on flames is nothing to hang around for!
Mortar mixed really well with a dash of dishsoap works the best. The soap bubbles air-entrains the mix making it lighter and making smaller amounts go further.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Miguel said:


> Mortar mixed really well with a dash of dishsoap works the best. The soap bubbles air-entrains the mix making it lighter and making smaller amounts go further.


Hmm... I believe I'll give that a try.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

futz said:


> Hmm... I believe I'll give that a try.


futz, I bought a plastic mixing barrel at Marshal Wells or Home Hardware or something. It's made for mixing small amounts of mix and it works perfect. You can mix the mortar right in the ensuite if the floors haven't been laid yet. 
Otherwise you'll either need a mixer outdoors or a gung-ho grunt with a hoe and a wheelbarrow to mix it up well enough to make the soap suds up. Pails of it will be easier to carry and if you don't make it too runny it makes a nice blob to set the tub onto.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Miguel said:


> futz, I bought a plastic mixing barrel at Marshal Wells or Home Hardware or something. It's made for mixing small amounts of mix and it works perfect. You can mix the mortar right in the ensuite if the floors haven't been laid yet.


I mix in 5 gallon buckets (one bag of topping mix at a time - I have a carefully calibrated water bucket) and use one of these in my Super Hawg. Should do the job fine, I think.











When you say "a dash" of dishsoap, exactly how big a dash are we talking about?

Marshall Wells still exists? I thought they died long long ago.




> Otherwise you'll either need a mixer outdoors or a gung-ho grunt with a hoe and a wheelbarrow to mix it up well enough to make the soap suds up. Pails of it will be easier to carry and if you don't make it too runny it makes a nice blob to set the tub onto.


No grunts for me. Had my fill of helpers. Never again.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

Naw, put that thing in a faster sipnning drill. By "a dash" I mean one real good squirt of Palmolive per bag of mix. You don't need much but mebbe double what you'd use for a big sink of dishes. Oh right, you probably don't do dishes. :laughing:
I dunno, maybe 100 - 200 ml.

Learned it from a stonemason/blocklayer that used to have to do that for jobs that could get wet and then be subjected to freezing temps. It keeps it from spalling and cracking. I noticed how the stuff poured out of his mixer like Dream Whip and asked him about it. The trick is to mix it really well.



futz said:


> I mix in 5 gallon buckets (one bag of topping mix at a time - I have a carefully calibrated water bucket) and use one of these in my Super Hawg. Should do the job fine, I think.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

I mostly use morter mix that I "borow" on the job the soap sounds good. what about something a little more light weight.
I almost never drill holes sometimes I put the valve in on the rough . sometimes I put it in the fiberglass tub deck. On tract homes I have put the trap on and over flow The tile is finished a tub setter sets the tub and I just put the spud on and valve trim .
More than one way to skin a cat... But Im really with the Master on drilling tile, granit or any surface. Thats the way I was taught, make them drill it.. and pretty much have stayed.


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## lewcrippen12 (Feb 20, 2010)

Hello,


I want something different......well i'll see about it whichever beneficial for me would be apply. 





Thanks




Regards
Lew Crippen


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

lewcrippen12 said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> I want something different......well i'll see about it whichever beneficial for me would be apply.
> ...


 


que? 









Paul


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Miguel said:


> Naw, put that thing in a faster sipnning drill.


Super Hawg turns 450RPM on low speed. Not enough? I think high speed (1750RPM) would be pretty dangerous for mixing mud. :laughing: I have another big drill that I rarely use that I think does 600RPM, and a broke-down Hole Hawg that does 300/1200RPM (needs a switch).



> By "a dash" I mean one real good squirt of Palmolive per bag of mix. You don't need much but mebbe double what you'd use for a big sink of dishes. Oh right, you probably don't do dishes. :laughing:


I do, but only in a dishwasher. 



> I dunno, maybe 100 - 200 ml.


Geesh, stupid metric.  I'm too old to automatically think in metric. I'll use onlineconversion.com to convert that to something that makes sense. :laughing:

100ml = roughly 6-3/4 tablespoons. I bet you meant less than that.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

:laughing:
Sumthin' like that. A good squirt!
I've got a D-handle Makita that I think is about 600 rpm (I dunno... turns faster than a hawg) that I've used with one of those mixers before.

However you do it, just mix it up as you normally would and when you've got the consistency right then give it a shot of soap and commence to stirring it up good. If you're mixing in a pail then you might even notice that it seems to add a bit of volume to it.




Or just get a can of Great Stuff from Can Tire and foam the biotch in! :laughing:


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## SummPlumb (Feb 19, 2010)

Miguel said:


> Nice looking job, TM. I was gonna give you a _wtf_ on the roman filler RI but I guess the boss is always right, huh? I don't think the tile looks bad at all (the shower). When she's all trimmed out I'm sure you'll be proud.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No joke! I have been doing it for years with no problems. I tried the spray foam. But if you don't fill the tub with water, the foam can expand and lift the tub out of the hole.

Have you ever got a truck stuck in the mud? The suction of the mud will hold your truck down. The same principle applies with sheetrock mud. Take 2 buckets and dump one on each end. Take a 2x4 and spread out the clump. It will dry cement hard in a couple weeks, depending on the temperature. 

I will take a picture of the next one I do. That is if we get to plumb a house in the near future.  We have thousands of undeveloped subdivisions around here. It looks like a PVC graveyard.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

if you use drywall mud, do you still use visqueen to seperate the 2?


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## SummPlumb (Feb 19, 2010)

I do not. Is Visqueen some kind of vapor barrier?


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

no it just makes it easier to pull the tub. We use sand mix. Sometimes up to 10 40# bags depending on how deep they recessed the slab at the tub. Then we lay visqueen on the sandmix and lay the tub on it.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

house plumber said:


> no it just makes it easier to pull the tub. We use sand mix. Sometimes up to 10 40# bags depending on how deep they recessed the slab at the tub. Then we lay visqueen on the sandmix and lay the tub on it.


[futz quickly Googles "visqueen"]... Ahhh!! You mean poly (polyethylene)! :laughing: Visqueen is a brand name.

I use topping mix (sand mix) as well, but the *last* thing I want is for the tub to be "easier to pull". I want that thing in there as solid as possible. I definitely do not want it coming loose after we hand it over to the homeowners. That's a recipe for disaster. I want it installed "permanently"!

The day after I mud my tubs in I come back and fill them with water for the inspector. I also shoot a whole gun tube or two of PL Premium in 4 or 6 or 8 gobs on the line where the tub meets the concrete and rub it in a bit. I just shoot it in gaps where it can get some "teeth" on both tub and concrete. If I can't reach the back I'll shoot a massive gob on a stick and reach back as far as possible and rub it into a good spot.

If the tub is a rectangular one that sits right on the wood and gets tiled up to, rather than an oval one that sits up on blocks for the tile man to tile under, I'll squeeze gobs of PL Premium into the inside edge of the tub where it meets the plywood - I use poly squares for this as the glue on your hands isn't very pleasant. 

Once that sets the tub is pretty damn difficult to get back out, and that's how it should be IMHO.

--------------------

One tip for people using topping/sand mix for tub setting: Do not use scrap lumber as filler for when the space between tub and floor is too big. I did this a few times on big gaps to save a bit of topping mix. Sometimes it works good, but a couple times the lumber soaked up water, twisted and heaved the tub up off the deck. Had to pull it, bust up the concrete and re-set.  

Now if I'm desperate for some gap filler I'll go around the yard and collect all the scrap concrete bits and flat rocks and use them. Even gravel can serve as filler.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

I've never had a home owner try to pull their tub. Maybe because since they are so rich they would rather pay someone to do it. I bet they pay someone to wipe their ass for them. But we had to pull quite a few. So it would be difficult to do if there are 7 bags of sandmix stuck to it.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

house plumber said:


> I've never had a home owner try to pull their tub. Maybe because since they are so rich they would rather pay someone to do it. I bet they pay someone to wipe their ass for them. But we had to pull quite a few. So it would be difficult to do if there are 7 bags of sandmix stuck to it.


It's not that they'll try to pull their tub. It's that I don't want it coming loose no matter what gymnastics they try in it, or if they're climbing over and around it cleaning or whatever. With no water in it the only thing holding that tub down is a thin ring of silicone at the rim and whatever I put underneath - the tubs don't weigh anything. I want it in there *solid* and I want it to be a *fight* to get it loose.

I've had to pull very few. They don't usually stick to the concrete very well - it's usually at least 150 to 250 pounds of concrete, and the tub just tears away from it when you pull it up. 

A shower base, on the other hand, will sometimes lift a 50 to 100 pound concrete lump with it - they can be tough to remove without damage because of this.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Mr. Rockstar and I were discussing who drills the holes in the tile. Well listen to this.......The tile man and the homeowner went over the placement of the faucets and she agreed to a set up according to the tileman....well he drilled the holes and I installed the roman tub faucet.....GUESS WHAT,SHE IS UNHAPPY WITH THE LOCATION AND THE WAY IT LOOKS AND IS BLAMING THE TILEMAN...EVEN THO SHE PICKED THE LOCATION. DOESN'T MAKE SENSE DOES IT? .....I'm damn glad I didn't drill the holes,because the result would be the same....this way I have no connection......she started complaining to me about it. My answer was....."Thats why I dont drill holes in customers tile or granite" End of conversation and I got paid. Speak of the devil huh? Experience baby...thats what that is.


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## PlumberPete (Nov 14, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Why the F would I want to do that? This way the tub will cover the cut edge of the tile,making a nice clean joint. If it were mine I wouldn't have put the faucet connections on the outside wall of the house were you have zero access unless you take the tub out....AND how the hell you gonna reach over and turn the faucet on?????? Your Not!!!! I warned them if it ever leaks the tub will hafta come out.........the answer..."We plan on selling it in a couple years".


 LOL, I just did a very similar job. The HO was absolutely stuck on keeping the tub filler on the outside wall. I went back and fourth for about a week and finally she wanted next to the window. Her answer to the "What are you going to do if it leaks?" question was I'll worry about it then. I guess for me it's some job security. Then again, I don't want to have to deal with replacing that faucet.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I was wrong the trim did not intrude on the tile accent band. Good for them!


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)




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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

SummPlumb said:


> WOW, everyone does it different. I set mine in a couple buckets of sheetrock mud. It creates a nice suction on the tub.


The problem with sheet-rock mud is after the first leak it is worthless. In addition, it is a great place for mold to grow. The best thing to use for support is a water resistant mortar type material.

Mark


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I think the idea of something under the tub is to SUPPORT IT. I cant see how it's gonna pop up or out:blink:

We use this


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## ranman (Jan 24, 2010)

ToUtahNow said:


> The problem with sheet-rock mud is after the first leak it is worthless. In addition, it is a great place for mold to grow. The best thing to use for support is a water resistant mortar type material.
> 
> Mark


i removed a tub set in mud and it was full of mold! we removed the tube to smell and we found it.

i set my tubs in sand topping cement.


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## ranman (Jan 24, 2010)

TheMaster said:


>




looks good!


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Looks good. I put up a little fight if they want to reach or step in a tub to turn it on...back issues, slipping..just plain stupid..
Also, I have the tile man leave the front open ( not always possible I know ) and we use sand mix with a piece of plastic over it for easy pull out.
We charge $50 to $70 a hole to drill.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

I hate the location of the RTV, truth be told........................


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

TM, Nice Job, looks good. Not sure I would install that tub valve at that location, also is there a VB on the HS in the shower area??


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

GREENPLUM said:


> I hate the location of the RTV, truth be told........................


 I repeatedly advised the owner not to locate the valve there to the point that I annoyed myself.....she spoke up finally and told me "Your not the one using it" Now after the job is finished shes not happy with it.....I could have been a smartass and said..."yeah I'm glad I'm not the one using it" at that point but I never throw gas on a fire,especially before I get paid. I have no complaints on the customer really,they are nice people and they paid me. I'd do the same job again for them if they wanted. She appreciated me making a folder for all of HER booklets and manuals that came with the fixtures and making sure she had them for the future.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

well truth be told, you did a good job :thumbsup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ESPinc said:


> TM, Nice Job, looks good. Not sure I would install that tub valve at that location, also is there a VB on the HS in the shower area??


 The location of the valve was not my call. Now about backflow....The fixture does not have a stopper and does not hold water unless the drain has a clog. Now for backflow to happen in that shower heres what must happen...The shower drain must be clogged or a stopper placed over the drain....the shower must then be filled.....the diverter must be in the handheld position ONLY.... not the shared function or the head only position or you dont get the vaccum........and then the handheld must be dropped down into the water and the main faucet control left in the on position........and then a negative pressure on the water main. Now with all that said...residences are not required here in the city to have backflow preventers on hose bibbs unless they have a swimming pool.:laughing:
I agree and it is possible to happen but not likely at all. What say you other than referencing a code?


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> The location of the valve was not my call. Now about backflow....The fixture does not have a stopper and does not hold water unless the drain has a clog. Now for backflow to happen in that shower heres what must happen...The shower drain must be clogged or a stopper placed over the drain....the shower must then be filled.....the diverter must be in the handheld position ONLY.... not the shared function or the head only position or you dont get the vaccum........and then the handheld must be dropped down into the water and the main faucet control left in the on position........and then a negative pressure on the water main. Now with all that said...residences are not required here in the city to have backflow preventers on hose bibbs unless they have a swimming pool.:laughing:
> I agree and it is possible to happen but not likely at all. What say you other than referencing a code?


A flood rim is a flood rim is a flood rim. Backflow rarely occurs but we protect against them because of the danger they can cause.

Mark

BTW: Why have a bathtub without a stopper when you also have a shower in the room?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> A flood rim is a flood rim is a flood rim. Backflow rarely occurs but we protect against them because of the danger they can cause.
> 
> Mark


Wouldn't you agree a home is more likely to have a leak in the underground piping rather than the shower backflow scenario What measures are taken to protect you from that? There are none. It could be done but why doesn't every code require it? Say a copper pipe under the slab foundation of a home is leaking but the owner does not know? A big pool of water is under the slab and if for some reason a negative pressure occurs you get all that water pooling under the slab mixed with termite poison mixed into your water line. What protects us from that?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Wouldn't you agree a home is more likely to have a leak in the underground piping rather than the shower backflow scenario What measures are taken to protect you from that? There are none. It could be done but why doesn't every code require it? Say a copper pipe under the slab foundation of a home is leaking but the owner does not know? A big pool of water is under the slab and if for some reason a negative pressure occurs you get all that water pooling under the slab mixed with termite poison mixed into your water line. What protects us from that?


The way to protect from that likely scenario would be to sleeve all underground piping to above the slab so if a leak occurs it will show up in the house and not be mixing with termite spray under your slab if you have a leak and they are doing work on the city mains or the fire dept. opens a few fire hydrants in the area. Why isn't that required by code?
ADD>:boxing:comeon old timer:jester:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> A flood rim is a flood rim is a flood rim. Backflow rarely occurs but we protect against them because of the danger they can cause.
> 
> Mark
> 
> BTW: Why have a bathtub without a stopper when you also have a shower in the room?


 The bathtub does have a stopper....:blink:


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Of course the obvious difference between the two is one is already a threat while the other one will become a threat when and if it happens. There are probably thousands of "what if" examples we could come up with and some may be valid and some may not. That is one of the reason many water purveyors (including myself) require backflow protection to protect their system and other users from a backflow from a single user.

Mark


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> Of course the obvious difference between the two is one is already a threat while the other one will become a threat when and if it happens. There are probably thousands of "what if" examples we could come up with and some may be valid and some may not. That is one of the reason many water purveyors (including myself) require backflow protection to protect their system and other users from a backflow from a single user.
> 
> Mark


I just checked and I'm not required to install one in the shower. And no its not a threat right now because the drain does not have an integral stopper and the drain would hafta clogg.......a malfunction of the normal just like the copper water pipe leaking under the slab. Plus the negative pressure would hafta occur,the valve left open,the diverter positioned to handheld only. Come on....wtf


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> The bathtub does have a stopper....:blink:


LOL-I missed the part where we switched from the tub to the shower. 

If the shower hand help is IAPMO approved to ASTM Standards, it has built in backflow protection. If it is not IAMPO approved it would be illegal under the UPC. Under the IPC it would be illegal if it did not comply with ASME Standards so I am wondering which code you work under.

Mark


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> LOL-I missed the part where we switched from the tub to the shower.
> 
> If the shower hand help is IAPMO approved to ASTM Standards, it has built in backflow protection. If it is not IAMPO approved it would be illegal under the UPC. Under the IPC it would be illegal if it did not comply with ASME Standards so I am wondering which code you work under.
> 
> Mark


The handheld shower we are all talking about has a built in certified dual check valve. Now who tested it to see if it really worked after I installed it? I never have and I'm betting nobody ever has. Nothings stopping here from replacing that head one day with a model that doesn't offer protection. I've have a few handheld hoses that have a vaccum breaker piece included with them but nothign to stop a person from removing that with their hand and screwing another hose onto it. i think if the code really wanted to offer protection it would require the main control valve to have built in check valves,that would stop the user from removing the protection.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> The handheld shower we are all talking about has a built in certified dual check valve. Now who tested it to see if it really worked after I installed it? I never have and I'm betting nobody ever has.


See here is the problem with non dimensional discussions held via the Internet. The "certified dual check valve" is your backflow protection. No one needs to certify it because it is not required. The standards for backflow are based on a risk analyst. As you have already pointed out the risk of a backflow is close to zero so those in power feel comfortable a non testable backflow preventer is sufficiently safe.

Mark


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> See here is the problem with non dimensional discussions held via the Internet. The "certified dual check valve" is your backflow protection. No one needs to certify it because it is not required. The standards for backflow are based on a risk analyst. As you have already pointed out the risk of a backflow is close to zero so those in power feel comfortable a non testable backflow preventer is sufficiently safe.
> 
> Mark


 But no protection is offered for a leaking pipe under the slab. Overkill on one thing and ignore the other completely and act as tho it doesn't exist. Thats par for a codebook. Like I added to the above post.nothings stopping the end user from just removing the protection with a replacement head or hose. the code should have regonized this and required the valve to have integral checks or provide and acess panel for aftermarket checks......somthing you just cant unscrew with your hand and throw away. Even the hose bibb vaccum breaker has a set screw to tighten and break off.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> But no protection is offered for a leaking pipe under the slab. Overkill on one thing and ignore the other completely and act as tho it doesn't exist. Thats par for a codebook. Like I added to the above post.nothings stopping the end user from just removing the protection with a replacement head or hose. the code should have regonized this and required the valve to have integral checks or provide and acess panel for aftermarket checks......somthing you just cant unscrew with your hand and throw away. Even the hose bibb vaccum breaker has a set screw to tighten and break off.


I have a hard time comparing an underslab pipe which may leak and a hand shower which is already long enough to lay in the bottom of a fixture.

As for removing the backflow protection, I agree there is nothing to prevent the end user for removing it which is why many purveyors require dual checks at the meter. 

As for the the hose bibb vacuum breakers, Ive always felt those were a dumb idea. The Code requires "non-removable" and if the screw is not broken off it is not "non-removable" and still illegal.

Mark


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> I have a hard time comparing an underslab pipe which may leak and a hand shower which is already long enough to lay in the bottom of a fixture.
> 
> As for removing the backflow protection, I agree there is nothing to prevent the end user for removing it which is why many purveyors require dual checks at the meter.
> 
> ...


It does not have an integral stopper in the shower the drain would need to b clogged the diverter would need to be turned to handheld onlythe main valve would need to be left openthe negative pressure on the main would need to happen at this point. .......or would just a common under slab leak be more of a dangerous situation? What would be more common? All that to make the handheld on that shower backflow or a leak under the slab with the negative pressure?


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> It does not have an integral stopper in the shower the drain would need to b clogged the diverter would need to be turned to handheld onlythe main valve would need to be left openthe negative pressure on the main would need to happen at this point. .......or would just a common under slab leak be more of a dangerous situation? What would be more common? All that to make the handheld on that shower backflow or a leak under the slab with the negative pressure?


Okay I will start a poll which might make it easier to understand how I see it different and keep this thread on topic.

Mark :thumbsup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> Okay I will start a poll which might make it easier to understand how I see it different and keep this thread on topic.
> 
> Mark :thumbsup:


 Be sure to include everything it will take my handheld shower to suck water compared to a underslab or under ground leak. This is not a bathtub. See which one would be more likely to occur.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Be sure to include everything it will take my handheld shower to suck water compared to a underslab or under ground leak. This is not a bathtub. See which one would be more likely to occur.


This isn't as much about what it takes as it is the level of threat. We all drink water which started out in dirt. I doubt many of us drink which started out in sewage.

As far as I an concerned the likelihood either would happen is fairly remote.

Mark


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## TheSkinnyGuy (Sep 15, 2009)

Its been said, but I'll add my two bits. I HATE where that RTV sits. As a tub operator you have to GET IN the tub before you turn the stoopid thing on: ghey... and if you want to service it you have to knock a hole in the exterior wall ( I don't think I saw an access back there... and to add my two bits to the discussion on water: every drop of potable water on planet earth has passed through someone at least 14 times before you've consumed it (unless it was scientifically created in a labratory somewhere).


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

TheSkinnyGuy said:


> Its been said, but I'll add my two bits. I HATE where that RTV sits. As a tub operator you have to GET IN the tub before you turn the stoopid thing on: ghey... and if you want to service it you have to knock a hole in the exterior wall ( I don't think I saw an access back there... and to add my two bits to the discussion on water: every drop of potable water on planet earth has passed through someone at least 14 times before you've consumed it (unless it was scientifically created in a labratory somewhere).


There is insulation in the way but it looks like it is framed for access.

As for water traveling through someone, they say most water is safe after filtering through 10' of dirt. Most regulations still require a 100' set back to be sure and then of course periodic testing.

Mark


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

TheSkinnyGuy said:


> Its been said, but I'll add my two bits. I HATE where that RTV sits. As a tub operator you have to GET IN the tub before you turn the stoopid thing on: ghey... and if you want to service it you have to knock a hole in the exterior wall ( I don't think I saw an access back there... and to add my two bits to the discussion on water: every drop of potable water on planet earth has passed through someone at least 14 times before you've consumed it (unless it was scientifically created in a labratory somewhere).


You could always tie strings onto the handles so you could turn them on....I bet you didn't even think about that did ya?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> There is insulation in the way but it looks like it is framed for access.
> 
> As for water traveling through someone, they say most water is safe after filtering through 10' of dirt. Most regulations still require a 100' set back to be sure and then of course periodic testing.
> 
> Mark


 There is no access panel on the outside. I did cut a 18"x12" hole in the subfloor that can be accessed from below the house. It would take a long armed skinny mofo to reach up in there and work tho. I told them if they have a problem the easiest way to correct it would be to go under the house and cut the pex off.....break a few tiles out on the front of the tub deck and install it there. I stopped short of saying "where it should be anyway" The tub might would come out tho......you could help it out of the hole from the small panel I cut off to the side of it. Its weighs NOTHING practically....maybe 65-75 pounds but it is set in cement mix.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> There is no access panel on the outside. I did cut a 18"x12" hole in the subfloor that can be accessed from below the house. It would take a long armed skinny mofo to reach up in there and work tho. I told them if they have a problem the easiest way to correct it would be to go under the house and cut the pex off.....break a few tiles out on the front of the tub deck and install it there. I stopped short of saying "where it should be anyway" The tub might would come out tho......you could help it out of the hole from the small panel I cut off to the side of it. Its weighs NOTHING practically....maybe 65-75 pounds but it is set in cement mix.


Got it, they must have rolled the 2 X 4 to give more room for the valve.

Mark


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> Got it, they must have rolled the 2 X 4 to give more room for the valve.
> 
> Mark


I rolled that 2x4 BINGO thats why its rolled. Now i will clear up the previous post by saying the access hole i cut in the subfloor could be used to drive a flat bar between the plywood that the tubs fiberglassed to and the cement to break it free. then you could just lift it out.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Since the faucet is in the tile...if plastic was set above the mud its not that hairy to lift out a tub to access the faucet...not ideal obviously.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

*Tub access*

Unless you have slip joint waste and over flow. or lav supplys running to the tub valve or some other cheesy set up why would you have an acess to the tub? You dont put an acess to a standard tub do you? Certain things need acess and some things dont, I see no need for acess here As far as the valve on the outside wall , No not very easy for the person taking the bath and I would point that out to the owner. Other than that its pretty normal to me.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

jeffreyplumber said:


> Unless you have slip joint waste and over flow. or lav supplys running to the tub valve or some other cheesy set up why would you have an acess to the tub? You dont put an acess to a standard tub do you? Certain things need acess and some things dont, I see no need for acess here As far as the valve on the outside wall , No not very easy for the person taking the bath and I would point that out to the owner. Other than that its pretty normal to me.


 You dont do much repair work do you? That delta roman tub faucet with integral diverter has a hose that connectes between the spout and the handshower HOSE. This hose will not last forever and theres noway to easily access it for replacement.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Access should be made code IMO. I got a friend with a kohler valve and they didnt want access in the marbel in front ( which can be done and not look obvious ). The hose is twisted somehow and the customer just said leave it in order to not open the marble. The marble could be set in and caulked. Cut the caulk and use a suction cup to remove. 
I cant blame too many though...knowing that its always easier to rod a kitchen drain on an outside wall from a cleanout...we seemed to hardly ever install one on the specs and custom homes. Cleanouts and access is nice.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

I don't know of any codes which would allow zero access to that hose. The hose is considered a renewable part.

Mark


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

*422.5 Access.* Access shall be provided to concealed piping in connection with special fixtures where such piping contains steam traps, valves, relief valves, check valves, vacuum breakers or other similar items that require periodic inspection, servicing, maintenance or repair. Access shall be provided to concealed piping that requires periodic inspection, maintenance or repair. 

Its a bit gray on hoses . They dont enforce it here. If you know where in the code it is I'd like to know.
Unless this is clear and Im not reading it right which is possible(probable).


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

stillaround said:


> *422.5 Access.* Access shall be provided to concealed piping in connection with special fixtures where such piping contains steam traps, valves, relief valves, check valves, vacuum breakers or other similar items that require periodic inspection, servicing, maintenance or repair. Access shall be provided to concealed piping that requires periodic inspection, maintenance or repair.
> 
> Its a bit gray on hoses . They dont enforce it here. If you know where in the code it is I'd like to know.
> Unless this is clear and Im not reading it right which is possible(probable).


It would be in the listing of the fixture. The hose would have to be approved for installation in a concealed location. They never are because they would have to be so stiff and reinforced they could never be used as a hand held. In addition, unless the connections are threaded or flared they are not legal in a concealed space. 

Mark


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> You dont do much repair work do you? That delta roman tub faucet with integral diverter has a hose that connectes between the spout and the handshower HOSE. This hose will not last forever and theres noway to easily access it for replacement.


I missed the hose, of course If I was out there installing it I would have seen it.
So Im wrong this installation clearly should have had access. Iguess you got easy inspectors.
I dont install acess panels for convienance, very often, I just put them in where code requires and our code pretty much covers it. 
I have never worked only as a service plumber, but have done a lot of repair. 
I would have told the owner this is not recomended or code. and let them deal with it. By the picture they could cut a panel on outside wall.


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