# offset flange...taboo?



## younger-plumber

i hate offset flanges and never install them or even consider them a valid option...I ran into one under a toilet today, and had quite the time resetting the new toilet.anyone use these things?


----------



## love2surf927

younger-plumber said:


> i hate offset flanges and never install them or even consider them a valid option...I ran into one under a toilet today, and had quite the time resetting the new toilet.anyone use these things?


I can't think of a reason to use one unless someone screwed up the rough-in, in which case, well..... Seen them before never used one.


----------



## AKdaplumba

Use em when a joist is in the way.


----------



## younger-plumber

i see them in slabs when the rough was too close to the wall. the one today was right on top of a joist. i tried to auger a toilet that had one and about broke my auger, pulled the toilet and found that i never even made it through the flange.


----------



## sburntx74

Never use them! I drift lead or offset with fittings if a rough is missed.


----------



## sburntx74

Technically speaking they are illegal as well.


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

sburntx74 said:


> Technically speaking they are illegal as well.


They are not against code in Texas, necessarily. The shelf on the off-set has to be at a 45° or greater. It cannot be level is the requirement. Most off-set shelves are at a 45° already. At least the Sioux chief ones are. Older cheap ones were flat sometimes and those are not code approved anymore or maybe they never were.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

Don't use them. We only used PVC x lead stubs and solder in brass flanges. Float it over or out if need be. Usually do t need to but sometimes the framers messes up. Ya know cuz I'm perfect and never mis my mark. Not even by a 1/2". Lol. By floating it a bit. We can get it perfect for Ada code. Boss wants perfect even tho we have 16-18. Or 17-19. Depending on the stall size


----------



## redbeardplumber

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Don't use them. We only used PVC x lead stubs and solder in brass flanges. Float it over or out if need be. Usually do t need to but sometimes the framers messes up. Ya know cuz I'm perfect and never mis my mark. Not even by a 1/2". Lol. By floating it a bit. We can get it perfect for Ada code. Boss wants perfect even tho we have 16-18. Or 17-19. Depending on the stall size


As a guy that never does commercial, I'd like to see some pics of this. Only ever use PVC or Abs.....

Only used an offset flange once, it was in a Reno and joist was in way and space was an issue.


----------



## MTDUNN

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Don't use them. We only used PVC x lead stubs and solder in brass flanges. Float it over or out if need be. Usually do t need to but sometimes the framers messes up. Ya know cuz I'm perfect and never mis my mark. Not even by a 1/2". Lol. By floating it a bit. We can get it perfect for Ada code. Boss wants perfect even tho we have 16-18. Or 17-19. Depending on the stall size


There are a few ways around offset flanges, this is my preferred way.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

redbeardplumber said:


> As a guy that never does commercial, I'd like to see some pics of this. Only ever use PVC or Abs.....
> 
> Only used an offset flange once, it was in a Reno and joist was in way and space was an issue.


Next time I do one !!!! I like working with lead Kinda of a art


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Don't use them. We only used PVC x lead stubs and solder in brass flanges. Float it over or out if need be. Usually do t need to but sometimes the framers messes up. Ya know cuz I'm perfect and never mis my mark. Not even by a 1/2". Lol. By floating it a bit. We can get it perfect for Ada code. Boss wants perfect even tho we have 16-18. Or 17-19. Depending on the stall size


I wish you were doing the new construction here in Houston. Though, maybe not because I wouldn't have so much work. Haha. Guys here don't know how to set toilets on off set flanges. They use no-seep wax rings causing the toilet to leak slowly for a few years before the homeowner notices. They don't know how to properly apply the wax. I agree, off sets are BS and are typically for when the rough-in guy messes up but in repair you see them a lot.


----------



## Plumberman

Best Darn Sewer said:


> I wish you were doing the new construction here in Houston. Though, maybe not because I wouldn't have so much work. Haha. Guys here don't know how to set toilets on off set flanges. They use no-seep wax rings causing the toilet to leak slowly for a few years before the homeowner notices. They don't know how to properly apply the wax. I agree, off sets are BS and are typically for when the rough-in guy messes up but in repair you see them a lot.


Sounds like north Louisiana as well....

I use to loath working on a house and fixing the debacles that were left by the rough in hands.

Many of days scratching my head wondering how in the crap they managed to do what I laid my eyes on.... The horrors!


----------



## Will

Found this gem the other day:


----------



## bct p&h

Offset flanges suck but sometimes you are stuck using them. I usually get stuck using one a year and it could be more if I was lazy or couldn't talk people into changing the layout around. The only thing that sucks more than having to use an offset flange are the people that don't know how to set a toilet on an offset flange.


----------



## love2surf927

bct p&h said:


> Offset flanges suck but sometimes you are stuck using them. I usually get stuck using one a year and it could be more if I was lazy or couldn't talk people into changing the layout around. The only thing that sucks more than having to use an offset flange are the people that don't know how to set a toilet on an offset flange.


Excuse my ignorance but how do you set it differently?


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

love2surf927 said:


> Excuse my ignorance but how do you set it differently?


You have to use two regular wax rings: take the first one and split it in half so that you can set the ring on the outer edge of the bolts. The second ring is to fill in the gap left after splitting the other ring in half. The main reason you do this is because the water will hit the shelf when flushed and splash up and leak through the gap left from a regular wax ring or a no-seep. basically, you're just increasing the diameter of the wax ring in order to deal with the backsplash that occurs with an offset flange.


----------



## plumbdik

Don't use a no-seep/kan't leak wax seal. Too many problems.


----------



## Michaelcookplum

You guys must not do a lot of new construction. If a joist is in the way and the builder won't head it off, an offset flange is an option. Personally, I don't like them, but if necessary, we will use them


----------



## love2surf927

plumbdik said:


> Don't use a no-seep/kan't leak wax seal. Too many problems.


You mean with the horn? I don't use those anyways, no horn for me I've seen too many problems with them.


----------



## ASUPERTECH

*On the same note as the offset flange..*

what's the best way to "raise" a offset flange to accommodate for say new tile?


----------



## love2surf927

ASUPERTECH said:


> what's the best way to "raise" a offset flange to accommodate for say new tile?


Why would it be any different than a normal flange?


----------



## love2surf927

Best Darn Sewer said:


> You have to use two regular wax rings: take the first one and split it in half so that you can set the ring on the outer edge of the bolts. The second ring is to fill in the gap left after splitting the other ring in half. The main reason you do this is because the water will hit the shelf when flushed and splash up and leak through the gap left from a regular wax ring or a no-seep. basically, you're just increasing the diameter of the wax ring in order to deal with the backsplash that occurs with an offset flange.


 I just read this again, this doesn't make sense to me if the toilet is set properly there should be no gap, the top of the wax gasket should seat against underside of toilet and bottom on the flange, I always mold mine to the flange, not understanding this. If the wax isn't seated against the underside of the toilet it's not serving much purpose.


----------



## MTDUNN

love2surf927 said:


> I just read this again, this doesn't make sense to me if the toilet is set properly there should be no gap, the top of the wax gasket should seat against underside of toilet and bottom on the flange, I always mold mine to the flange, not understanding this. If the wax isn't seated against the underside of the toilet it's not serving much purpose.


I give my wax a few punches


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

love2surf927 said:


> I just read this again, this doesn't make sense to me if the toilet is set properly there should be no gap, the top of the wax gasket should seat against underside of toilet and bottom on the flange, I always mold mine to the flange, not understanding this. If the wax isn't seated against the underside of the toilet it's not serving much purpose.


Typically, all I do with a wax ring on a regular flange is set the wax down, align the bolts, and set the toilet. A little of the inner portion of the wax sits over the lip of the metal ring and so when you set the toilet, the horn on the toilet squishes down and seals it. Being the water flows straight down into the closet bend or wye, there is no issue. 

With an offset flange, however, the water that comes out of the toilet doesn't go straight down, it hits that shelf or offset which, after the toilet is set, is directly under the horn or outlet of the toilet's s-trap. The water hits that and some splashes back up and if you use a no-seep ring than water leaks from under the horn of the no-seep. If you use a regular ring without spreading it out properly the leak is less but still there. It is not because of a gap left but there's not enough wax to hold back the back splash. When you widen the diameter of the wax by using one and a 1/3 rings and set it around the outer half of the bolts, after you set the toilet, all of the wax is sitting on the top metal ring and flat part as opposed to some being squished down into the throat of the flange. Doing this protects from the back splash that occurs from water hitting the offset shelf when flushed leaking out over time due to not enough wax being on the top metal ring of the flange to dam it. Wax doesn't hold water back too well so you need more of it where the water typically splashes, which is at the top, when you have an offset. A wax ring's main purpose is to keep sewer gasses from escaping and not to stop from water leaking. 

Its not easy to explain without visual references but trust me if you don't do it the way I suggest it will leak. It may take a while to notice, like a few years, but it will leak. I have had to reset many improperly set toilets on offsets and the ones where guys used normal rings but didn't adjust them leaked very slowly for a few years before the stains got too bad or the smell got to the customer and they called. Typically, flooring guys, who aren't plumbers, are notorious for using no-seep wax rings when they reset a toilet after installing new floors in the bathroom. Those only take a couple months to be noticeably leaking because the water easily splashes up between that horn and the offset shelf and leaks out.


----------



## Letterrip

I get what you are saying BDS, but to say that wax doesn't hold water would suggest that every stoppage should cause water to escape the toilet flange. I don't see that. Part of the seal's job is to contain raw sewage in the event of a stoppage. If a seal, by design or otherwise, doesn't seal to the flange, then it is flawed. 

I pulled pics of no-seep (my Ferguson's don't carry them) and they all have that plastic horn. What is the purpose of that horn? I have never found the benefit, but have definitely seen them cause stoppages, specifically in offset flanges.


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

Letterrip said:


> I get what you are saying BDS, but to say that wax doesn't hold water would suggest that every stoppage should cause water to escape the toilet flange. I don't see that. Part of the seal's job is to contain raw sewage in the event of a stoppage. If a seal, by design or otherwise, doesn't seal to the flange, then it is flawed.
> 
> I pulled pics of no-seep (my Ferguson's don't carry them) and they all have that plastic horn. What is the purpose of that horn? I have never found the benefit, but have definitely seen them cause stoppages, specifically in offset flanges.


It is designed to stop from sewer gasses leaking only. Most main line stoppages do cause water to leak out at the wax but it may not be much. The wax does hold some water back but that's not its main purpose. If the flange is done properly than the gap between the bottom of the toilet and the flange is minimal so it is less likely for much water to leak out through the wax in the event of a clog. 

The horn is for when you have too much of a gap between the flange and the toilet and you use a regular ring and a no-seep to make up the difference. The regular ring goes directly on top of the flange and then put the no-seep on top of that. The horn keeps the wax from the lower ring squishing or seeping into the pipe when you set the toilet, hence- no-seep.


----------



## Plumbus

Unless it's in concrete there's no reason why the rough can't be dead on center. If that means notching a beam, so be it. Otherwise, head it off or move the walls to adjust to the wc. If the plumber screws up his layout and misses center line, the adjustment is on him (and that may include breaking concrete). If the fault lies with bad layout info given by others or architectural errors, the onus is on the guilty party to come up with a solution. I tell my guys if it's not crystal clear, get it in writing. Documentation is a strong prophylactic. 

Similar scenario holds for when the tile wall over a shower valve is too deep for the trim. My guys get wall thicknesses verified in writing, allowing for a trail to who screwed the pooch.


----------



## ASUPERTECH

love2surf927 said:


> Why would it be any different than a normal flange?


One is round the other ovalish.. Do they make spacers in that oval shape? I've never seen one.


----------



## Rando

Plumbus said:


> Unless it's in concrete there's no reason why the rough can't be dead on center. If that means notching a beam, so be it. Otherwise, head it off or move the walls to adjust to the wc. If the plumber screws up his layout and misses center line, the adjustment is on him (and that may include breaking concrete). If the fault lies with bad layout info given by others or architectural errors, the onus is on the guilty party to come up with a solution. I tell my guys if it's not crystal clear, get it in writing. Documentation is a strong prophylactic.
> 
> Similar scenario holds for when the tile wall over a shower valve is too deep for the trim. My guys get wall thicknesses verified in writing, allowing for a trail to who screwed the pooch.


Get it in writing from whom? The GC? The framer laying out walls? All i can envision from a request like that is some laughter and a GTFO of here.


----------



## Redwood

Letterrip said:


> I pulled pics of no-seep (my Ferguson's don't carry them) and they all have that plastic horn. What is the purpose of that horn? I have never found the benefit, but have definitely seen them cause stoppages, specifically in offset flanges.


The horn is a marketing gimmick that handihacks think stops leaks...

In reality they create more problems than they ever cured....


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

Redwood said:


> The horn is a marketing gimmick that handihacks think stops leaks...
> 
> In reality they create more problems than they ever cured....


And that would be the other reason for them. Maybe it was designed also for those who couldn't center the wax onto the flange.


----------



## love2surf927

Best Darn Sewer said:


> And that would be the other reason for them. Maybe it was designed also for those who couldn't center the wax onto the flange.


What's funny is if you read the instructions on the box it says to put the wax ring on the underside of the toilet, lol, your theory might make sense. Like Redwood said they cause more problems than anything I learned to stay away from them long ago.


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

love2surf927 said:


> What's funny is if you read the instructions on the box it says to put the wax ring on the underside of the toilet, lol, your theory might make sense. Like Redwood said they cause more problems than anything I learned to stay away from them long ago.


Haha. Yup. I learned to ignore those directions when I set my first toilet at 17. Who wrote those?? I don't know anyone who sets the wax onto the bowl first.


----------



## Letterrip

There are other wax rings that say to apply it to the bowl first. I tried it a few time to see of it made any difference. It did. As a result of this technique.....

1. I had to clean a lot of wax off my hands because it kept falling off. After the third time, I got ticked and really worked it on. 

2. It took much longer because I had to put the tank on with the bowl in place instead of assembling to toilet out where I had room. This was after I cleaned my hands up so that I wouldn't triple the job cleanup time. 

I see exactly zero advantage to doing it that way.


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

Letterrip said:


> There are other wax rings that say to apply it to the bowl first. I tried it a few time to see of it made any difference. It did. As a result of this technique.....
> 
> 1. I had to clean a lot of wax off my hands because it kept falling off. After the third time, I got ticked and really worked it on.
> 
> 2. It took much longer because I had to put the tank on with the bowl in place instead of assembling to toilet out where I had room. This was after I cleaned my hands up so that I wouldn't triple the job cleanup time.
> 
> I see exactly zero advantage to doing it that way.


Haha. Point made.


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Haha. Point made.


*Us old timers would use putty to set that toilet! *

*LOL *


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Us old timers would use putty to set that toilet!
> 
> LOL


Yup. I have pulled many toilets that had been set with putty for who knows how long in old homes. It works. It just uses a whole tub of putty!! Haha.


----------



## ASUPERTECH

ASUPERTECH said:


> what's the best way to "raise" a offset flange to accommodate for say new tile?


Any takers? I use pvc spacers for standard flanges, not sure what the proper technique, parts to use for raising an offset flange properly.


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

ASUPERTECH said:


> Any takers? I use pvc spacers for standard flanges, not sure what the proper technique, parts to use for raising an offset flange properly.


Depends. I have used a brass flange with a wax ring in between the original and the spacer quite a few times with good results. The PVC ones work fine too with a ring between. I typically don't have the plastic one on hand but I always carry a brass one. It works well and is strong.


----------



## ASUPERTECH

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Depends. I have used a brass flange with a wax ring in between the original and the spacer quite a few times with good results. The PVC ones work fine too with a ring between. I typically don't have the plastic one on hand but I always carry a brass one. It works well and is strong.


I get the sandwich technique, but is the spacer oval like the offset flange, or round or does it need to be?


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

ASUPERTECH said:


> I get the sandwich technique, but is the spacer oval like the offset flange, or round or does it need to be?


Oh, you were asking how to raise an offset? If it is a Sioux chief PVC one then my method described would work. With a brass offset I am not sure. If the brass one could seal properly then I would prefer using that. But I would have to be looking at one to really know.


----------



## ASUPERTECH

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Oh, you were asking how to raise an offset? If it is a Sioux chief PVC one then my method described would work. With a brass offset I am not sure. If the brass one could seal properly then I would prefer using that. But I would have to be looking at one to really know.


What's the difference if it's Brass, pvc, c.i., abs? I'm not understanding?


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

ASUPERTECH said:


> What's the difference if it's Brass, pvc, c.i., abs? I'm not understanding?


The brass ones are kind of oval shape. One side is thicker than the other, and looks like this: 









I have run into these at old apartments and 1960s homes. Pain in the a$$ sometimes. But I would have to test a few things before knowing how to raise it. The best way is raising the pipe but lead isn't the easiest thing to deal with on a slab house. Using a spacer is best if possible.


----------



## ASUPERTECH

Best Darn Sewer said:


> The brass ones are kind of oval shape. One side is thicker than the other, and looks like this:
> 
> I have run into these at old apartments and 1960s homes. Pain in the a$$ sometimes. But I would have to test a few things before knowing how to raise it. The best way is raising the pipe but lead isn't the easiest thing to deal with on a slab house. Using a spacer is best if possible.


Ok, we're on the same page. I think. Thx.


----------



## Nlindbert

Used them to miss a floor joist every now and then on remodels but new I try to make sure joist aren't in the way! Not a bit fan but every so often there is a time and place for them


----------



## PathMaker

Best Darn Sewer said:


> It is designed to stop from sewer gasses leaking only. Most main line stoppages do cause water to leak out at the wax but it may not be much. The wax does hold some water back but that's not its main purpose. If the flange is done properly than the gap between the bottom of the toilet and the flange is minimal so it is less likely for much water to leak out through the wax in the event of a clog.
> 
> The horn is for when you have too much of a gap between the flange and the toilet and you use a regular ring and a no-seep to make up the difference. The regular ring goes directly on top of the flange and then put the no-seep on top of that. The horn keeps the wax from the lower ring squishing or seeping into the pipe when you set the toilet, hence- no-seep.


If there is too much of a gap between the flange and the toilet then the plumbing is not set properly and/or the flooring guy is a jack ass. Two wax rings is not a fix. Too much risk of them shifting and breaking the seal when heavy people lean one way or the other to finish their business on the toilet. Raise up the pipe/flange and do it right, whether its a reno, repair, or new construction. Anything less is pretty hackish imo


----------



## ASUPERTECH

So my question still stands. Besides cutting the pipe and physically raising the flange, is there any way to properly build up a off set flange?


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

Just use a jumbo wax ring and be done with it. They are twice as thick and work great. I mean reall we are talking a 1/2 in raise. Or maybe 5/8. 
I've stacked two rings on one another. It worked fine. Not the perfect way to do it. But lets get real. Our job is to adapt and improvise. Some times u got to just make it work


----------



## ASUPERTECH

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Just use a jumbo wax ring and be done with it. They are twice as thick and work great. I mean reall we are talking a 1/2 in raise. Or maybe 5/8.
> I've stacked two rings on one another. It worked fine. Not the perfect way to do it. But lets get real. Our job is to adapt and improvise. Some times u got to just make it work


I do a lot of condo work, so a leak for me could mean real trouble. Not to mention it's hard to explain to the costumer why it's better to have a plumber set that toilet at 5x the cost of there tile guy, when I'm doing the same as him. I take allot of pride in fixing what others can't. Just looking for the best way is all. I didn't know if they made a spacer for an offset flange.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

ASUPERTECH said:


> I do a lot of condo work, so a leak for me could mean real trouble. Not to mention it's hard to explain to the costumer why it's better to have a plumber set that toilet at 5x the cost of there tile guy, when I'm doing the same as him. I take allot of pride in fixing what others can't. Just looking for the best way is all. I didn't know if they made a spacer for an offset flange.


I do t know of a spacer And we both know the BEST way is to raise the flange. As for any other method it is not the true and %100 best way.


----------



## jnohs

Ok gonna get slammed for this. Years ago, at lowes I saw a 45 flange. I have a job coming up where it is framed with 2x12 and I am gonna be into one beam about 1 1/2 and I am going to use this. I figure it is not as extreme as an offset while still accomplishing the job. It will work on all 2x10 and larger installations and some 2x8 and 2x6 installations depending on how far into the beam you need to go.


----------



## Ryan M

I'm the the same boat as you, same with the fitting cheater flanges. In some rare cases you have to install them.


----------



## rjbphd

Ryan M said:


> I'm the the same boat as you, same with the fitting cheater flanges. In some rare cases you have to install them.


Who cares what you say RyanM..


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

rjbphd said:


> Who cares what you say RyanM..


You crack me up, RJ.


----------

