# Another hole in per pipe,why is this happening???



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Got call last sat. Said mobile home had leak on hot water line at water heater,went there and found a small hole in the red pex line right below water heater,this is the third hole that I have repaired on this trailer.do not know what brand of pex they used when building mobile home but it seems much cheaper than my zurnpex that I use.there is a prv on incoming service line with about 60 lbs pressure at faucets,but there is no expansion tank or valve at water heater,I told them that an expansion tank or valve would stop this but now I'm not so sure.shouldnt the pex pipe hold enough pressure before blowing a hole that would make the t&p valve pop-off????i don't understand why this pex pipe keeps blowing holes in it before the popoff valve releasesany ideas???

Dang spell check,per should be pex


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Mice. During the winter they love a hot drink.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Like a pin hole? I've run into a few pin hole leaks in PEX and each one was on the hot side next to the heater. I have heard various potential reasons given but I can't remember any of them. The ones I saw were on rahau or zurn pex.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Like a pin hole? I've run into a few pin hole leaks in PEX and each one was on the hot side next to the heater. I have heard various potential reasons given but I can't remember any of them. The ones I saw were on rahau or zurn pex.


No,all these holes I have repaired are bigger than pinholes,little bigger than pencil lead I'd say,my sue pex that I have used to repair these holes with has not had a hole come in it as of yet,pex is pex,why is this pex pipe not holding enough pressure to let popoff valve blow off if it is thermal expansion???i love pex but stuff like this really worries me:yes:


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

sparky said:


> No,all these holes I have repaired are bigger than pinholes,little bigger than pencil lead I'd say,my sue pex that I have used to repair these holes with has not had a hole come in it as of yet,pex is pex,why is this pex pipe not holding enough pressure to let popoff valve blow off if it is thermal expansion???i love pex but stuff like this really worries me:yes:


I have had pex in one of my houses( the whole house is plumbed in pex) for about 11+ years coming off the water heater, no issues yet, but to answer your question, yes pex should hold alot more than 60 psi before failing, im starting to think water quality or chemicals added to the water are having and effect on both copper and pex pipe, since we( plumbers) are the first to get called for a leak, im thinking there should be a data base to see if these problems are concentrated in certain parts of the USA, for both copper and pex...


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

http://gotaclassaction.com/nibco-in...ver-cross-linked-polyethylene-plumbing-tubes/

https://failures.wikispaces.com/PEX+Plumbing+Failures

Older instance, https://www.lawyersandsettlements.c...ng/zurn-pex-time-bomb-behind-walls-10673.html

And finally, http://www.coengineers.com/preventable-problems-with-pex/

piping within 30cm vertically or 15cm horizontally from a strong heat source such as flue vents is not installed properly and is not expected to survive very long.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

if you have time to kill go here.. http://www.classaction.org/list-of-lawsuits
see all the people jumping on the class action lawsuits for almost anything you can think of..its the new lotto system..


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

GAN said:


> http://gotaclassaction.com/nibco-in...ver-cross-linked-polyethylene-plumbing-tubes/
> 
> https://failures.wikispaces.com/PEX+Plumbing+Failures
> 
> ...


The first two holes I repaired about a yr ago and both of them were within 18"-24" of the hot outlet on the tank,but this last hole was around 4'-0"" from heater and it was thru the floor about a foot below heater,seems like it just keeps going away from my zurnpex pex,maybe they used crappy pex but I thought pex was pex,maybe I'm wrong,but I can't figure it out,it should hold enough pressure for popoff valve to blow IMO


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

They installed cheeeep pex from the rip, it's junk and needs a repipe


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

GREENPLUM said:


> They installed cheeeep pex from the rip, it's junk and needs a repipe



I Agreeeee,thanks:yes:


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

sparky said:


> ... I told them that an expansion tank or valve would stop this but now I'm not so sure.shouldnt the pex pipe hold enough pressure before blowing a hole that would make the t&p valve pop-off????i don't understand why this pex pipe keeps blowing holes in it before the popoff valve releasesany ideas???


I've seen PEX hold 1000 PSI with no problems. So either the PEX is crap, or it's defective or, like Plumber said, mice. Or maybe the HWT thermostat is letting the water get way too hot?

I know someone is going to ask:
The 1000 PSI test was when PEX was brand new. My dad was worried because even after crimping it turns on the fittings pretty easily compared to poly-b. So he crimped a bunch of PEX pipe and fittings together, twisted each joint back and forth a bunch of times and then pumped it to 1000 PSI with the hydrostatic pump and left it for a week. It held the test just fine.


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## SHEPLMBR70 (Feb 25, 2016)

Trailer? Mice or other rodents maybe? I dunno


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

*uh oh*



sparky said:


> Got call last sat. Said mobile home had leak on hot water line at water heater,went there and found a small hole in the red pex line right below water heater,this is the third hole that I have repaired on this trailer.do not know what brand of pex they used when building mobile home but it seems much cheaper than my zurnpex that I use.there is a prv on incoming service line with about 60 lbs pressure at faucets,but there is no expansion tank or valve at water heater,I told them that an expansion tank or valve would stop this but now I'm not so sure.shouldnt the pex pipe hold enough pressure before blowing a hole that would make the t&p valve pop-off????i don't understand why this pex pipe keeps blowing holes in it before the popoff valve releasesany ideas???
> 
> Dang spell check,per should be pex




Here's a pic I took today. The black pipe is gas. The red pex has been there 2 years max.

Note the green spot on the pex. Note the red flakes on the black pipe. The pex is corrupting.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Looks like there rubbing each other


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

GREENPLUM said:


> Looks like there rubbing each other


It was laying on top of the gas pipe; I lifted it to take the pic. Nothing in that old house would make the pex move. I'll double check it on Monday drain repipe, though.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

GREENPLUM said:


> Looks like there rubbing each other


I agree. The movement needed to make that happen would never been seen easily by the naked eye, but happens none the less. The flow of water itself moves loose pex. I have heard water hammer on loose pex caused effortlessly by nothing more than turning off a single lever Delta kitchen faucet.


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

Plumber said:


> GREENPLUM said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like there rubbing each other
> ...



Linear expansion, contraction, expansion, contraction........


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Plumber said:


> It was laying on top of the gas pipe; I lifted it to take the pic. Nothing in that old house would make the pex move. I'll double check it on Monday drain repipe, though.


pex moves a huge amount when heated and that looks like a hot water line, pex needs to be protected from rubbing , that what all the plastic clamps for pex allow movement..


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## titaniumplumbr (Jun 11, 2014)

Also remember water hammer will cause a jerk or vibration.. Anyhow I think that pex is garbage.. I believe that in 5 years we are going to have to replace the pex and all the shark bites as well as some of the propress fittings because of the gaskets


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

titaniumplumbr said:


> Also remember water hammer will cause a jerk or vibration.. Anyhow I think that pex is garbage.. I believe that in 5 years we are going to have to replace the pex and all the shark bites as well as some of the propress fittings because of the gaskets


Why 5 years? Pro-press has been used for almost 20 years with a good track record. 

PEX has been used for over 20 years for domestic water and has had some law suits but most of the suits are against certain types of crimping connections and de-zincification of some brands brass fittings, not the pipe itself. 

Shark Bites and similar type fittings have been used for over 20 years in various industries with little issues if installed properly.


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## titaniumplumbr (Jun 11, 2014)

12 years.. Shark bites were introduced in 04... Rubber and chlorine don't mix well... You do realize that the argument you are throwing out right now is the same one that plumbers used when pvc debued years ago when discussing cast iron pipe


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

titaniumplumbr said:


> 12 years.. Shark bites were introduced in 04... Rubber and chlorine don't mix well... You do realize that the argument you are throwing out right now is the same one that plumbers used when pvc debued years ago when discussing cast iron pipe


I was meaning that "push-to-connect" types of fittings have been around for over twenty years with a fairly good track record, all things considered. Shark bites themselves are just an improvement on other systems. All products have their place.


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## titaniumplumbr (Jun 11, 2014)

True but everything previously installed is starting on its way down right now


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

titaniumplumbr said:


> True but everything previously installed is starting on its way down right now


just like the galvanized, brass and copper lines that all give problems....Ive put in plenty of pex.without issues so far..and have fixed plenty of the above mentioned..I think alot of problems stem from water quality and location around the USA..


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## titaniumplumbr (Jun 11, 2014)

I've never heard of pec being tested at 1000 psi before ... That is really asking for a disaster. I believe that it has been tested at 150 psi but idk


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## titaniumplumbr (Jun 11, 2014)

I agree


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

titaniumplumbr said:


> I've never heard of pec being tested at 1000 psi before ... That is really asking for a disaster. I believe that it has been tested at 150 psi but idk


the 1000 psi test I believe was not on a plumbing system, the way I read it. just a spare piece of pex to see if it would burst..


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## titaniumplumbr (Jun 11, 2014)

Oh ok well still that's crazy


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

titaniumplumbr said:


> Oh ok well still that's crazy


not really, hydro static testing doesnt give you the explosive action as air does..its more like if the pipe froze and just cracked..no boom..


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Plumber said:


> Here's a pic I took today. The black pipe is gas. The red pex has been there 2 years max.
> 
> Note the green spot on the pex. Note the red flakes on the black pipe. The pex is corrupting.


The black pipe is for that-there hydronic heating, not gas. The heat was melting the pipe. Yes, my j'man strapped the pex correctly and restrapped the rest of the pex. We didn't install the pex. 

Judging by the fittings, the hydronic system has to be one of the first installed. I looked around a bit and the black pipe was piped really, really excellent.


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