# quick question back flow devices for carbonators



## BOBBYTUCSON

Watts makes a 3\8 back flow device for carbonator
http://soda-dispensers.com/S/product/09K06-115.html

I bid the cost of the job with their normal dual check 1\2" FIP backflow with purge though for the carbonator and ice machine. I can't find in my IPC 2012 book that said I can't use this instead of the watts linked above. My supplier has these in stock and wouldn't see why I can't install these on the carbonator and ice box.any suggestions? Or will I have to wait for supplier to order the one above?


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## plumbdrum

The carbon dioxide will have a detrimental effect on brass

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Shoot'N'Plumber

Unfortunately it should suffice. It does vary from region to region but Coca-Cola's lobbyist actually won a suit that this type of check can be sufficient. Many areas where I'm from allow these as minimum protection.


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## justme

In Texas most cities require at a minimum a Bronze RPZ , there are a few that require the SS RPZ . Talk about big bucks a 3/4" SS RPZ goes for about 650 to 800 depending on how much buying power you have.


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## BOBBYTUCSON

Thanks for the help guys. So I guess for the ice machine I'll just use a watts brass dual check with purge and run the drain line to the floor receptor. And for the carbonator , its for a beer line under the bar , so I'll use the rpz . wish the IPC would state which type shall be used. In fact I can't even find where it mentions carbonation items or ice items. Local code just says refer to IPC for NSF and astm u.L. approved parts. I mean I know these need backflows but dam what type ! IPC I need specifics lol. I mean its like I feel can just put a single check sweat on I have laying around from a grunfos recirc pump !


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## Steveking

Install the RP and no copper after the #2 shutoff check with the local health department.this is a very serious health issue.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber

Steveking said:


> Install the RP and no copper after the #2 shutoff check with the local health department.this is a very serious health issue.


Yea! If you can just put a bronze 1/2" Wilkins 975 for the carbonator (with no brass or copper downstream). Now, why do u need to put a check valve on the ice machine? Is yur code requiring it? Ice machines thpically arent listed as potential hazards.


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## Gargalaxy

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> Yea! If you can just put a bronze 1/2" Wilkins 975 for the carbonator (with no brass or copper downstream). Now, why do u need to put a check valve on the ice machine? Is yur code requiring it? Ice machines thpically arent listed as potential hazards.


608.3 Devices, appurtenances, appliances and apparatus. All devices, appurtenances, appliances and apparatus intended to serve some special function, such as sterilization, distillation, PROCESSING, COOLING, or STORAGE OF ICE or FOODS, and that connect to the water supply system, SHALL be provided with protection against backflow and contamination of the water supply system. Water pumps, filters, softeners, tanks, commercial drinking water dispensers and all other appliances and devices that handle or treat potable water shall be protected against contamination.


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## BOBBYTUCSON

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> Yea! If you can just put a bronze 1/2" Wilkins 975 for the carbonator (with no brass or copper downstream). Now, why do u need to put a check valve on the ice machine? Is yur code requiring it? Ice machines thpically arent listed as potential hazards.


Yah our local code in city of Tucson demands backflow preventors on ice machines.

And why isn't copper allowed downstream? I mean its got antibacterial properties that's why I love running copper. I definitely ain't running pex exposed and its against code in commercial anyways, and I dam sure aint running PVC or cpv after valve lol what does this leave me besides galv


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## BOBBYTUCSON

Gargalaxy said:


> 608.3 Devices, appurtenances, appliances and apparatus. All devices, appurtenances, appliances and apparatus intended to serve some special function, such as sterilization, distillation, PROCESSING, COOLING, or STORAGE OF ICE or FOODS, and that connect to the water supply system, SHALL be provided with protection against backflow and contamination of the water supply system. Water pumps, filters, softeners, tanks, commercial drinking water dispensers and all other appliances and devices that handle or treat potable water shall be protected against contamination.


This UPC ?


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## Shoot'N'Plumber

Gargalaxy said:


> 608.3 Devices, appurtenances, appliances and apparatus. All devices, appurtenances, appliances and apparatus intended to serve some special function, such as sterilization, distillation, PROCESSING, COOLING, or STORAGE OF ICE or FOODS, and that connect to the water supply system, SHALL be provided with protection against backflow and contamination of the water supply system. Water pumps, filters, softeners, tanks, commercial drinking water dispensers and all other appliances and devices that handle or treat potable water shall be protected against contamination.


Of course it would say that! Jurisdictional thing as usual! I recall going over this with a few enforcement officials at USC, and the consensus was that since the typical operating characteristics of an ice machine is separated by an "air gap" between the actual trickle down of water into the ice processing receptacle, it satisfies the protection. But again jurisdictional thing. It's funny cuz out here, when doing new commercial installs, the plans never have protection for the ice machine, then when the inspector shows up ill ask "so the planner left out the backflow for the ice machine...what kind to you want me to put in?" Ill get a WTF! Look and then the phone calls and head scratching begins....in the end no protection is required.


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## BOBBYTUCSON

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> Of course it would say that! Jurisdictional thing as usual! I recall going over this with a few enforcement officials at USC, and the consensus was that since the typical operating characteristics of an ice machine is separated by an "air gap" between the actual trickle down of water into the ice processing receptacle, it satisfies the protection. But again jurisdictional thing. It's funny cuz out here, when doing new commercial installs, the plans never have protection for the ice machine, then when the inspector shows up ill ask "so the planner left out the backflow for the ice machine...what kind to you want me to put in?" Ill get a WTF! Look and then the phone calls and head scratching begins....in the end no protection is required.


Lol ! Was there ever ice machines back in the day that didn't drip and flowed water to inside mechanism?


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## Gargalaxy

bobbytucson said:


> this upc ?


ipc.


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## Gargalaxy

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> Lol ! Was there ever ice machines back in the day that didn't drip and flowed water to inside mechanism?


^^^
Not the first time that's happened. A bad maintenance to any ice machine can cause it. In Florida even the health department is very strict with that.


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## BOBBYTUCSON

Gargalaxy said:


> ipc.



But see my frustration , IPC doesnt mention which type to use. Just to be safe , I'm gonna use a dual check with purge and run drain off the perge indirectly over a Floor receptor . local code sais when refering to the mandatory install of this device , refer to the adopted code in my are for proper device. My local area and state are IPC. And IPC said exactly what you posted but isn't specific enough. Single check ? Dual check ? Dual check with purge ? Pressure zone check or rpz ? IPC arghhh !!!


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## Shoot'N'Plumber

Gargalaxy said:


> ^^^
> Not the first time that's happened. A bad maintenance to any ice machine can cause it. In Florida even the health department is very strict with that.


Exactly! It's kind of a contradiction because even though a urinal has technically a gap from the discharge jets and the drain, the "engineers" at USC's cross connection say they can successfully create a siphon back up the urinal wall, but yet say that an ice machine whic has a similar flow characteristic is OK. Obviously it's a simple fact of a urinal is a waste receptacle.


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## Gargalaxy

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> ......Ice machines thpically arent listed as potential hazards.


I'm understand your point and kinda agree with you. But not necessary have to be a high hazard for a backflow, table 608.1
-backflow preventer for carbonated beverage machine-> low hazard (backpressure or backsiphonage). 
- dual check valve type backflow preventer-> low hazard (backpressure or backsiphonage).


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## BOBBYTUCSON

Gargalaxy said:


> I'm understand your point and kinda agree with you. But not necessary have to be a high hazard for a backflow, table 608.1
> -backflow preventer for carbonated beverage machine-> low hazard (backpressure or backsiphonage).
> - dual check valve type backflow preventer-> low hazard (backpressure or backsiphonage).



So the chart doesn't say dual check for the carbonator. So I can get away with single check without purge ?


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## Shoot'N'Plumber

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> So the chart doesn't say dual check for the carbonator. So I can get away with single check without purge ?


No no! It seems there may be a misunderstanding. To clarify, yes as a rule of thumb all "carbonator" beverage dispensers need a backflow preventer. Now the typical and most widely accepted protection is an RPZ of some make and model, I.e. febco 825y, Wilkins 975, or watts 009 etc etc. now in regards to that, Coca-Cola has successfully lobbied that they're "factory installed" check valve that comes in their carbonator is satisfactory and because of their monetary influence won that argument. So depending on your jurisdiction Thais may be acceptable. Now, in regards to the "non carbonated" ice machine, just a standard ice machine, typically there is no protection required. Now if you want to put a check valve in, I say go for it. But as far as being enforced it is not done. I perform many inside protection sanitary surveys and do not call for a check valve for a "non carbonated" ice machine.


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## Gargalaxy

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> So the chart doesn't say dual check for the carbonator. So I can get away with single check without purge ?


Check in your code book 608.16.1 & 608.16.10.


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## plumber tim

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> Yah our local code in city of Tucson demands backflow preventors on ice machines.
> 
> And why isn't copper allowed downstream? I mean its got antibacterial properties that's why I love running copper. I definitely ain't running pex exposed and its against code in commercial anyways, and I dam sure aint running PVC or cpv after valve lol what does this leave me besides galv


If carbonated water comes in contact with copper pipe it can turn the water into poison. It causes severe diarrhea and possible death.


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## BOBBYTUCSON

:blink:


plumber tim said:


> If carbonated water comes in contact with copper pipe it can turn the water into poison. It causes severe diarrhea and possible death.


Holy effin smokes. So I'll have to run clear tubing right off of backflow .....


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## Shoot'N'Plumber

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> :blink:
> 
> Holy effin smokes. So I'll have to run clear tubing right off of backflow .....


Yea it's crazy what that stuff can do to you when mixed wit copper. If I'm filling up a cup of pop at a soda fountain somewhere and the pop is fluctuating as it comes out ill spill it out and start over. After the backflow you can use brass or stainless....but yes some kind of braided line or pex after and to your machine.


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## luv2plum

Copper + carbonated beverage will make Carbonic Acid, which can be deadly as mentioned earlier in this thread. You need a carbonator backflow device (like a Watts SD-3). If you put a brass RP, and check #2 fails, you still have a chance that the carbonated liquid contacts the brass BFP, which will create the carbonic acid. You don't want that. 
The Bible for how to choose a backflow preventer in Canada is the CSA B64.10 standard. I would imagine the U.S. Has something similar. The AWWA Has a cross connection control manual that is usually referenced by most of the AHJ when it comes to backflow. That manual describes how to choose a backflow device.


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## Gargalaxy

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> :blink:
> 
> Holy effin smokes. So I'll have to run clear tubing right off of backflow .....





Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> .....After the backflow you can use brass or stainless....but yes some kind of braided line or pex after and to your machine.


This job was a few months ago in a liquor store, is a beer tap dispenser or growler system. It's a little different but you can have an idea in what to use for your water supply. Like Shoot'N'Plumber said is a braided line and stainless fittings. I'll check my old phone for more pics.


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## BOBBYTUCSON

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> Yea it's crazy what that stuff can do to you when mixed wit copper. If I'm filling up a cup of pop at a soda fountain somewhere and the pop is fluctuating as it comes out ill spill it out and start over. After the backflow you can use brass or stainless....but yes some kind of braided line or pex after and to your machine.


I'd love to run pex over the others


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## BOBBYTUCSON

luv2plum said:


> Copper + carbonated beverage will make Carbonic Acid, which can be deadly as mentioned earlier in this thread. You need a carbonator backflow device (like a Watts SD-3). If you put a brass RP, and check #2 fails, you still have a chance that the carbonated liquid contacts the brass BFP, which will create the carbonic acid. You don't want that.
> The Bible for how to choose a backflow preventer in Canada is the CSA B64.10 standard. I would imagine the U.S. Has something similar. The AWWA Has a cross connection control manual that is usually referenced by most of the AHJ when it comes to backflow. That manual describes how to choose a backflow device.


Thanks for this ! I bought th watts 009 , so even though its up to code , I'm now worried about using it


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## BOBBYTUCSON

Gargalaxy said:


> This job was a few months ago in a liquor store, is a beer tap dispenser or growler system. It's a little different but you can have an idea in what to use for your water supply. Like Shoot'N'Plumber said is a braided line and stainless fittings. I'll check my old phone for more pics.


Funny thing is , the resteraunt manager now tells me that the backflow will also be serving a soda fountain , pepsi will be here in 2 weeks. So was watts 009 a good choice ?


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## justme

Look up the model number of the ice machine and download the specs most of the newer ice machine have a built in airgap that will satisfy most jurisdictions. But you have either show them the internal airgap or show them the paperwork


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## justme

The watts 009 will suffice , usually you will set the device and pepsi or coke will run their own line to tie in to it. make sure and put a tee behind the device for your water.


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## Gargalaxy

justme said:


> Look up the model number of the ice machine and download the specs most of the newer ice machine have a built in airgap that will satisfy most jurisdictions. But you have either show them the internal airgap or show them the paperwork


Even with the new models I prefer to install a dual check, better play safe and just take a few minutes. About what device to use for the soda machine, check it with your AHJ. Personally I'll use Watts 9BD. http://www.watts.com/pages/_products_details.asp?pid=885


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## justme

Gargalaxy said:


> Even with the new models I prefer to install a dual check, better play safe and just take a few minutes. About what device to use for the soda machine, check it with your AHJ. Personally I'll use Watts 9BD. http://www.watts.com/pages/_products_details.asp?pid=885


Better to be safe and install a "testable" device and not one that can't be tested. We installed devices like that 20 years ago, they're not allowed anymore unless you get into a small town where the dog catcher is the inspector.


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## Gargalaxy

justme said:


> Better to be safe and install a "testable" device and not one that can't be tested. We installed devices like that 20 years ago, they're not allowed anymore unless you get into a small town where the dog catcher is the inspector.


Agree that can't be tested, that's what I'll do as I posted before. BTW can you show me where say that's not allowed anymore? I don't live in any small town and never had a problem.


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## justme

Gargalaxy said:


> Agree that can't be tested, that's what I'll do as I posted before. BTW can you show me where say that's not allowed anymore? I don't live in any small town and never had a problem.


You probably dont live in Texas , if you live in a state where there is a backflow program then that device does not meet the standards of a testable device. If they let you install that hack device then thats on you and your state, here if its not testable its not allowed.


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## bdaltonph

It's been a while since I have done any restaurants. I do remember that being a pia when I did. I remember it was a 3/8" stainless steel dual check by watts forget the number though I do remember the inspectors checking it closely. I'm in NJ we follow the NSPC


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## Gargalaxy

justme said:


> You probably dont live in Texas , if you live in a state where there is a backflow program then that device does not meet the standards of a testable device. If they let you install that hack device then thats on you and your state, here if its not testable its not allowed.


Can you tell me something new? We both agree that can't be tested but you didn't show me where say that it's not allowed. Obviously I don't live in Texas, actually in Florida and yes, we have a backflow programs. Show me in any code book or backflow book where say that just because any device can't be tested, it's not allowed. Dual check valve with/without atmospheric port can't be tested neither, hose bib vacuum breakers can't be tested so are not allowed neither in Texas?


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## justme

Every state is different , some just want the main protected with a containment device per EPA standards others want every hazard within the building protected with an isolation device. Every state is different.


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## Gargalaxy

Agree but not matter the state, everything related with health/food its highly and strictly enforced, even if the state just protect the main. IPC chapter 608


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## justme

Gargalaxy said:


> Agree but not matter the state, everything related with health/food its highly and strictly enforced, even if the state just protect the main. IPC chapter 608



IPC doesn't count for **** when it comes to testable backflow devices, in Texas it is a separate agency that rules the roost on backflow known as TCEQ. They follow EPA regulations and again the IPC doesn't have any control over backflow of any kind. We install backflow device here per TCEQ , it is a separate license to test/repair them. It is called a cross connection control program that your local water purveyor is supposed to implement and you won't find that in the IPC .


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## justme

Here's the guys that write the books http://www.usc.edu/dept/fccchr/


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## justme

Gargalaxy said:


> Can you tell me something new? We both agree that can't be tested but you didn't show me where say that it's not allowed. Obviously I don't live in Texas, actually in Florida and yes, we have a backflow programs. Show me in any code book or backflow book where say that just because any device can't be tested, it's not allowed. Dual check valve with/without atmospheric port can't be tested neither, hose bib vacuum breakers can't be tested so are not allowed neither in Texas?



A hose bib vacuum breaker can be tested easily without taking anything apart. Connect a hose to the hose bib ,run the water for a few seconds while raising it above the hose bib a few feet then turn the water off . If the vacuum breaker is working properly the water in the hose will cause the breaker to open and bleed the hose down.


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## BOBBYTUCSON

I love you all


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## Gargalaxy

Once again, you didn't show me nothing. Just walked in circles. You forgot to mention that a dual check can be tested before installed .... oooh I got it now, almost forgot that Texas has their own cross connection and also forgot that you hold 4 plumbing licenses and 3 BACKFLOW CERTIFICATIONS....
BTW check this website http://www.treeo.ufl.edu


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## justme

Gargalaxy said:


> Once again, you didn't show me nothing. Just walked in circles. You forgot to mention that a dual check can be tested before installed .... oooh I got it now, almost forgot that Texas has their own cross connection and also forgot that you hold 4 plumbing licenses and 3 BACKFLOW CERTIFICATIONS....
> BTW check this website http://www.treeo.ufl.edu


lol you're a silly ****er, everything can be tested before being installed but its all about yearly recertification and being tested while installed.


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## Gargalaxy

Got your point about yearly recertification and agree 100% but this is why you should install stainless steel. Also in another quote someone explained why you can't use copper neither.



plumbdrum said:


> The carbon dioxide will have a detrimental effect on brass.


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## BOBBYTUCSON

justme said:


> In Texas most cities require at a minimum a Bronze RPZ , there are a few that require the SS RPZ . Talk about big bucks a 3/4" SS RPZ goes for about 650 to 800 depending on how much buying power you have.



Dam !


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## justme

Gargalaxy said:


> Got your point about yearly recertification and agree 100% but this is why you should install stainless steel. Also in another quote someone explained why you can't use copper neither.


But you can you use bronze , I dont agree with it but most cities allow it here. FT Worth and the city of Plano I believe still require the SS rpz.


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## Gargalaxy

BRASS is an alloy made of COPPER and ZINC; the proportions of zinc and copper can be varied to create a range of brasses with varying properties.[1] It is a substitutional alloy: atoms of the two constituents may replace each other within the same crystal structure.

By comparison, BRONZE is principally an ALLOY of COPPER and tin.[2] Bronze does not necessarily contain tin, and a variety of alloys of copper, including alloys with arsenic, phosphorus, aluminium, manganese, and silicon, are commonly termed "bronze".


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## justme

Gargalaxy said:


> BRASS is an alloy made of COPPER and ZINC; the proportions of zinc and copper can be varied to create a range of brasses with varying properties.[1] It is a substitutional alloy: atoms of the two constituents may replace each other within the same crystal structure.
> 
> By comparison, BRONZE is principally an ALLOY of COPPER and tin.[2] Bronze does not necessarily contain tin, and a variety of alloys of copper, including alloys with arsenic, phosphorus, aluminium, manganese, and silicon, are commonly termed "bronze".


No it's not, really :laughing:. You really are dense.:yes: I'd be willing to bet no plumber on here knew bronze and brass were an alloy of copper or ever heard of copper being broke down by carbonation or acute copper poisoning.:laughing: Captain obvious award


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## Gargalaxy

justme said:


> But you can you use bronze , I dont agree with it but most cities allow it here. FT Worth and the city of Plano I believe still require the SS rpz.





justme said:


> No it's not, really :laughing:. You really are dense.:yes: I'd be willing to bet no plumber on here knew bronze and brass were an alloy of copper or ever heard of copper being broke down by carbonation or acute copper poisoning.:laughing: Captain obvious award


I'm so sorry, please apologize my ignorance.... :laughing: you started with the whole Texas, now is just in some areas :laughing: soon will be: "just me" :lol: I even copied an inspector quote....read from the beginning, STAINLESS STEEL :yes: no brass or bronze :laughing: I forgot to mention your words: "you can use bronze but you don't agree with it.....:banghead:


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## justme

justme said:


> In Texas most cities require at a minimum a Bronze RPZ , there are a few that require the SS RPZ . Talk about big bucks a 3/4" SS RPZ goes for about 650 to 800 depending on how much buying power you have.



This is what I posted.


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## justme

Gargalaxy said:


> I'm so sorry, please apologize my ignorance.... :laughing: you started with the whole Texas, now is just in some areas :laughing: soon will be: "just me" :lol: I even copied an inspector quote....read from the beginning, STAINLESS STEEL :yes: no brass or bronze :laughing: I forgot to mention your words: "you can use bronze but you don't agree with it.....:banghead:


You're really really dense , try reading the whole post before coming back with petty little helper comments. It's like having a conversation with my wife :laughing:


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## Gargalaxy

Maybe your wife is smarter than you :laughing: and you're right I'm an apprentice.... Maybe I can borrow your extra certification in backflow :yes:


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## Gargalaxy

justme said:


> But you can you use bronze , I dont agree with it but most cities allow it here. FT Worth and the city of Plano I believe still require the SS rpz.


Oops.....


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## justme

Your mother had to of dropped you multiple times when you were a baby or are the folks from Florida just that goddamn retarded, well they did give us the Casey Anthony verdict, enough said.:yes:


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## Gargalaxy

justme said:


> Your mother had to of dropped you multiple times when you were a baby or are the folks from Florida just that goddamn retarded, well they did give us the Casey Anthony verdict, enough said.:yes:


Casey Anthony? That's another thread..... I don't wanna waste more time, now you can start with the air gap explanation so I laugh more.....


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## justme

justme said:


> In Texas most cities require at a minimum a Bronze RPZ , there are a few that require the SS RPZ . Talk about big bucks a 3/4" SS RPZ goes for about 650 to 800 depending on how much buying power you have.







> Look up the model number of the ice machine and download the specs most of the newer ice machine have a built in airgap that will satisfy most jurisdictions. But you have either show them the internal airgap or show them the paperwork





> The watts 009 will suffice , usually you will set the device and pepsi or coke will run their own line to tie in to it. make sure and put a tee behind the device for your water.





> Better to be safe and install a "testable" device and not one that can't be tested. We installed devices like that 20 years ago, they're not allowed anymore unless you get into a small town where the dog catcher is the inspector.





> You probably dont live in Texas , if you live in a state where there is a backflow program then that device does not meet the standards of a testable device. If they let you install that hack device then thats on you and your state, here if its not testable its not allowed.





> Every state is different , some just want the main protected with a containment device per EPA standards others want every hazard within the building protected with an isolation device. Every state is different.





> IPC doesn't count for **** when it comes to testable backflow devices, in Texas it is a separate agency that rules the roost on backflow known as TCEQ. They follow EPA regulations and again the IPC doesn't have any control over backflow of any kind. We install backflow device here per TCEQ , it is a separate license to test/repair them. It is called a cross connection control program that your local water purveyor is supposed to implement and you won't find that in the IPC .





> Here's the guys that write the books http://www.usc.edu/dept/fccchr/





> A hose bib vacuum breaker can be tested easily without taking anything apart. Connect a hose to the hose bib ,run the water for a few seconds while raising it above the hose bib a few feet then turn the water off . If the vacuum breaker is working properly the water in the hose will cause the breaker to open and bleed the hose down.





> lol you're a silly ****er, everything can be tested before being installed but its all about yearly recertification and being tested while installed.





> But you can you use bronze , I dont agree with it but most cities allow it here. FT Worth and the city of Plano I believe still require the SS rpz.





> No it's not, really :laughing:. You really are dense.:yes: I'd be willing to bet no plumber on here knew bronze and brass were an alloy of copper or ever heard of copper being broke down by carbonation or acute copper poisoning.:laughing: Captain obvious award Attached Images



Here is all of what I said in this thread, now you can pick away junior. Anything I've posted on this site can be verified I have multiple master license in different states and multiple backflow license in different states along with a few other license so if you think you caught me lying you didn't. You're a small time petty plumber doing residential service work for ******* home owners period , so stick to your garbage disposals and let the professionals handle the backflow and commercial plumbing.:yes:


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## wyrickmech

Ok now this is a good subject. One of those little stinkers. If memory serves me right the ASSE and NBPA both read that untestable devices are are illegal except for one little exception, yes you got it the little watts SS double check with the vent port. This will soon go away but that exception is still there. From what I know the reason is that the gas will cause corrosion and stick standard check valves. So somebody thought it would be a good sub.


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## justme

wyrickmech said:


> Ok now this is a good subject. One of those little stinkers. If memory serves me right the ASSE and NBPA both read that untestable devices are are illegal except for one little exception, yes you got it the little watts SS double check with the vent port. This will soon go away but that exception is still there. From what I know the reason is that the gas will cause corrosion and stick standard check valves. So somebody thought it would be a good sub.


If it's not testable I haven't been able to install them here in a long time, for the soda fountain it is either the bronze rpz or there are a few cities that want the SS rpz.


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## wyrickmech

Wouldn't brass also leave you exposed to the potential of poison. That is one of reason the cross connection rules did not want brass or copper on a soda line,stainless or plastic only. I believe they should come up with a better solution.


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## justme

wyrickmech said:


> Wouldn't brass also leave you exposed to the potential of poison. That is one of reason the cross connection rules did not want brass or copper on a soda line,stainless or plastic only. I believe they should come up with a better solution.


Don't shoot the messenger , I'm just posting what's allowed. I said I didn't agree with it. I have ran into the copper poisoning once here in the Dallas area, it was at an old grocery store that had a soda fountain with no backflow device , a couple people had gotten sick , I and my boss went out there and he ran the sprite out of the machine (had a tinge of green to it) and told me go look under the cabinet and see if there was any backflow on the water line . I did and told him no and he told me to turn the valve off and disconnect the line. The customer ended up just taking the fountain out and doing away with it. He ended up sending a couple of samples in to be tested to confirm it which it did.


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## Gargalaxy

justme said:


> Here is all of what I said in this thread, now you can pick away junior. Anything I've posted on this site can be verified I have multiple master license in different states and multiple backflow license in different states along with a few other license so if you think you caught me lying you didn't. You're a small time petty plumber doing residential service work for ******* home owners period , so stick to your garbage disposals and let the professionals handle the backflow and commercial plumbing.:yes:


You keep saying multiple backflow certifications, a few master licenses but that's it. A few members here (shop owners)showed their Facebook page, others like Schmitz plumbing and I posted ours licenses and certifications awhile back in another thread so people like you can see it and verify. My name and shop is in my avatar what about all your licenses and certifications? Enough I say, see you in the next one Mr professional.
If that's the way you guys do in Texas, fine but don't say we are wrong because every body agree with the stainless steel (even you kind of).


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## wyrickmech

justme said:


> Don't shoot the messenger , I'm just posting what's allowed. I said I didn't agree with it. I have ran into the copper poisoning once here in the Dallas area, it was at an old grocery store that had a soda fountain with no backflow device , a couple people had gotten sick , I and my boss went out there and he ran the sprite out of the machine (had a tinge of green to it) and told me go look under the cabinet and see if there was any backflow on the water line . I did and told him no and he told me to turn the valve off and disconnect the line. The customer ended up just taking the fountain out and doing away with it. He ended up sending a couple of samples in to be tested to confirm it which it did.


 that is why the one un testable device is allowed. I think the health department is the agency here that oversees it when they inspect. But it is in the cross connection standards book.


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## justme

If its untestable you cant verify it is working , if you're that concerned about copper poisening then use the SS rpz .


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## Redwood

Carbonic Acid Chemical Compatibility Chart....
It's simple... Right! :laughing:


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## wyrickmech

justme said:


> If its untestable you cant verify it is working , if you're that concerned about copper poisening then use the SS rpz .


I'm not arguing the validity of your point on testable protection. I am just saying it is exempted as adequate protection according to cross connection guidelines.


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## justme

wyrickmech said:


> I'm not arguing the validity of your point on testable protection. I am just saying it is exempted as adequate protection according to cross connection guidelines.


Agreed in some states it is but not in Texas. The TCEQ requires testing of all backflow prevention assemblies at installation by a TCEQ licensed tester. Backflow-prevention assemblies installed to protect against any substance that can make you sick must be tested annually.


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## Ghostmaker

*608.16.1 Beverage dispensers*. The water supply connection to beverage dispensers shall be protected against backflow by a backflow preventer conforming to ASSE 1022 or by an air gap. The portion of the backflow preventer device downstream from the second check valve and the piping downstream therefrom shall not be affected by carbon dioxide gas.

*608.16.10 Coffee machines and noncarbonated beverage dispensers*. The water supply connection to coffee machines and noncarbonated beverage dispensers shall be protected against backflow by a backflow preventer conforming to ASSE 1022 or by an air gap.


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## Best Darn Sewer

justme said:


> Agreed in some states it is but not in Texas. The TCEQ requires testing of all backflow prevention assemblies at installation by a TCEQ licensed tester. Backflow-prevention assemblies installed to protect against any substance that can make you sick must be tested annually.


When did Texas stop allowing the 9BD? I havent been a BPAT since '08 but one of the last jobs I did before moving to Montana was an occupancy permit for a convenient store and I installed the 9BD because when I called to see what the city wanted for the carbonater, they said that will suffice. I agree its non-testable thus making it illegal to install, but man, was it easier than an RPZ. I came back to TX in '10 but haven't done testing since being back.


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## Redwood

Ghostmaker said:


> *608.16.1 Beverage dispensers*. The water supply connection to beverage dispensers shall be protected against backflow by a backflow preventer conforming to ASSE 1022 or by an air gap. The portion of the backflow preventer device downstream from the second check valve and the piping downstream therefrom shall not be affected by carbon dioxide gas.
> 
> *608.16.10 Coffee machines and noncarbonated beverage dispensers*. The water supply connection to coffee machines and noncarbonated beverage dispensers shall be protected against backflow by a backflow preventer conforming to ASSE 1022 or by an air gap.


I thought Texas was mostly under IPC....
They must have "Strengthened" the code locally...:laughing:


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## Shoot'N'Plumber

All this f**kin' yellin is makin my head hurt. F**k! Can we all just agree that none of us knows jack s**t about each others "LOCAL" jurisdictional requirement when it comes to backflow. Yes, we all know the basic standards and how important it is and what an RPZ is and a Dual Check is . Wuts testable and not testable...I got it. It's great that a state such as Texas can have requirements that cover the entire Effin state, not all of us are that lucky. Like is said, when I go into a commercial restaurant ill check the carbonator and many of then have a single check valve that is part of the unti. It is not testable and it does not show signs of failure but many jurisdictions allow for it. That is all. Thank you for your time. Ill also add that some of the districts in my area allow a DC for irrigation on good courses. It truly varies in enforcement


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## justme

Best Darn Sewer said:


> When did Texas stop allowing the 9BD? I havent been a BPAT since '08 but one of the last jobs I did before moving to Montana was an occupancy permit for a convenient store and I installed the 9BD because when I called to see what the city wanted for the carbonater, they said that will suffice. I agree its non-testable thus making it illegal to install, but man, was it easier than an RPZ. I came back to TX in '10 but haven't done testing since being back.


Some cities will still allow an untestable device as long as it is 1022 compliant but its not legal under TCEQ.


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## justme

Redwood said:


> I thought Texas was mostly under IPC....
> They must have "Strengthened" the code locally...:laughing:


For the plumbing code most of the state is under the IPC , there are a few holdouts like Houston that are under the UPC . As for the backflow code the whole state is under the TCEQ .


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## justme

Ghostmaker said:


> *608.16.1 Beverage dispensers*. The water supply connection to beverage dispensers shall be protected against backflow by a backflow preventer conforming to ASSE 1022 or by an air gap. The portion of the backflow preventer device downstream from the second check valve and the piping downstream therefrom shall not be affected by carbon dioxide gas.
> 
> *608.16.10 Coffee machines and noncarbonated beverage dispensers*. The water supply connection to coffee machines and noncarbonated beverage dispensers shall be protected against backflow by a backflow preventer conforming to ASSE 1022 or by an air gap.


This doesn't mean squat .


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## leakfree

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> All this f**kin' yellin is makin my head hurt. F**k! Can we all just agree that none of us knows jack s**t about each others "LOCAL" jurisdictional requirement when it comes to backflow. Yes, we all know the basic standards and how important it is and what an RPZ is and a Dual Check is . Wuts testable and not testable...I got it. It's great that a state such as Texas can have requirements that cover the entire Effin state, not all of us are that lucky. Like is said, when I go into a commercial restaurant ill check the carbonator and many of then have a single check valve that is part of the unti. It is not testable and it does not show signs of failure but many jurisdictions allow for it. That is all. Thank you for your time. Ill also add that some of the districts in my area allow a DC for irrigation on good courses. It truly varies in enforcement



Just my add to this thread,City of Chicago 4 story school,8" combined service coming in and it will NOT have a DCV or a RPZ on the domestic,goes thru a meter and off to the fixtures.Not a fluke happens all the time,but every HB will have a testable DCV installed in addition to the VB it has already.I don't try to figure out other area's codes anymore,just deal with my own.


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## BOBBYTUCSON

Ghostmaker said:


> *608.16.1 Beverage dispensers*. The water supply connection to beverage dispensers shall be protected against backflow by a backflow preventer conforming to ASSE 1022 or by an air gap. The portion of the backflow preventer device downstream from the second check valve and the piping downstream therefrom shall not be affected by carbon dioxide gas.
> 
> *608.16.10 Coffee machines and noncarbonated beverage dispensers*. The water supply connection to coffee machines and noncarbonated beverage dispensers shall be protected against backflow by a backflow preventer conforming to ASSE 1022 or by an air gap.


Coffee and tea isn't carbonated. Wonder why dual check rpz is required.


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## plbgbiz

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> Coffee and tea isn't carbonated. Wonder why dual check rpz is required.



Maybe because there is not enough of a clean air gap between the reservoir and the brewing basket? Just a guess.


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## Redwood

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> Coffee and tea isn't carbonated. Wonder why dual check rpz is required.





plbgbiz said:


> Maybe because there is not enough of a clean air gap between the reservoir and the brewing basket? Just a guess.


If you ever had some of PlbgBiz's Brew you'd wonder why they don't require a stainless steel RPZ...:laughing:

No silver spoons in that shop...
The brew dissolves anything except stainless steel...


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## BOBBYTUCSON

plbgbiz said:


> Maybe because there is not enough of a clean air gap between the reservoir and the brewing basket? Just a guess.


Made me have a hit myself on my helmet moment lol ! That makes sense


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## BOBBYTUCSON

Redwood said:


> If you ever had some of PlbgBiz's Brew you'd wonder why they don't require a stainless steel RPZ...:laughing:
> 
> No silver spoons in that shop...
> The brew dissolves anything except stainless steel...



Lmao !


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## Ghostmaker

justme said:


> This doesn't mean squat .


Then don't perform plumbing where I inspect.


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## justme

Ghostmaker said:


> Then don't perform plumbing where I inspect.


You dont inspect in Texas so get your panties out of a bunch.


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## SlickRick

For the longest the Watts 9 BD was acceptable. But most are requiring RPZ's now. I was responsible for implementing the Cross-connection Control program for the city of Longview in '90. You will find a wide array of programs throughout the state.

http://www.watts.com/pages/_products_details.asp?pid=885


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## BOBBYTUCSON

SlickRick said:


> For the longest the Watts 9 BD was acceptable. But most are requiring RPZ's now. I was responsible for implementing the Cross-connection Control program for the city of Longview in '90. You will find a wide array of programs throughout the state.
> 
> http://www.watts.com/pages/_products_details.asp?pid=885


Hell yah !


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## GAN

Submesred inlets in Illinois (or inside the case) require backflow protection.
*Section 890.1130 Protection of Potable Water* 

a) Cross-Connection (Submergence). Potable water supply piping and water discharge outlets shall not be submerged in any sewage or toxic substance. Potable water supply piping or water discharge outlets that are submerged in other substances shall be provided with backflow protection as listed in subsection (f). (See Appendix I.Illustrations B and C.) 

b) Approval of Devices and Maintenance. All devices and assemblies for the prevention of backflow shall comply with the standards listed in Appendix A.Table A. All reduced pressure principle (RPZ), reduced pressure detector (RPDA), double check (DCA) and double check detector (DCDA) backflow prevention assemblies shall be tested and approved by a Cross-Connection Control Device Inspector (CCCDI) before initial operation, and at least annually after initial inspection. Records to verify testing and maintenance shall be available at the site of the installation.


c) Backflow. The water distribution system shall be protected against backflow. Each water outlet shall be protected from backflow by having the outlet end from which the water flows spaced a sufficient distance above the flood-level rim of the receptacle into which the water flows to provide a minimum fixed air gap. When it is not possible to provide a minimum fixed air gap, the water outlet shall be equipped with an accessible backflow prevention device or assembly in accordance with subsection (f) of this Section or Section 890.1140.
f) Devices for the Protection of the Potable Water Supply. Approved backflow preventers or vacuum breakers shall be installed with all plumbing fixtures and equipment that may have a submerged potable water supply outlet and that are not protected by a minimum fixed air gap. Connection to the potable water supply system for the following fixtures or equipment shall be protected against backflow with one of the appropriate devices as indicated below: 

1) Inlet to receptacles containing low hazard substances (steam, compressed air, food, beverages, etc.): 

A) fixed air gap fitting; 

B) reduced pressure principle backflow preventer assembly; 

C) atmospheric vacuum breaker unit; 

D) double check valve backflow preventer assembly; 

E) double check backflow preventer with atmospheric vent assembly; or 

F) dual check valve.




For carbonation units, yes, real important to use stainless & no copper after the backflow device. When low or no use the carbonic gas may back up into the system and contaminate the water. Then in the morning the first few slugs shot through the fountain will have a slug. These will cause issues that mimic the flu, food poisoning and will generally dissipate with time.


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## BOBBYTUCSON

GAN said:


> Submesred inlets in Illinois (or inside the case) require backflow protection.
> *Section 890.1130 Protection of Potable Water*
> 
> a) Cross-Connection (Submergence). Potable water supply piping and water discharge outlets shall not be submerged in any sewage or toxic substance. Potable water supply piping or water discharge outlets that are submerged in other substances shall be provided with backflow protection as listed in subsection (f). (See Appendix I.Illustrations B and C.)
> 
> b) Approval of Devices and Maintenance. All devices and assemblies for the prevention of backflow shall comply with the standards listed in Appendix A.Table A. All reduced pressure principle (RPZ), reduced pressure detector (RPDA), double check (DCA) and double check detector (DCDA) backflow prevention assemblies shall be tested and approved by a Cross-Connection Control Device Inspector (CCCDI) before initial operation, and at least annually after initial inspection. Records to verify testing and maintenance shall be available at the site of the installation.
> 
> 
> c) Backflow. The water distribution system shall be protected against backflow. Each water outlet shall be protected from backflow by having the outlet end from which the water flows spaced a sufficient distance above the flood-level rim of the receptacle into which the water flows to provide a minimum fixed air gap. When it is not possible to provide a minimum fixed air gap, the water outlet shall be equipped with an accessible backflow prevention device or assembly in accordance with subsection (f) of this Section or Section 890.1140.
> f) Devices for the Protection of the Potable Water Supply. Approved backflow preventers or vacuum breakers shall be installed with all plumbing fixtures and equipment that may have a submerged potable water supply outlet and that are not protected by a minimum fixed air gap. Connection to the potable water supply system for the following fixtures or equipment shall be protected against backflow with one of the appropriate devices as indicated below:
> 
> 1) Inlet to receptacles containing low hazard substances (steam, compressed air, food, beverages, etc.):
> 
> A) fixed air gap fitting;
> 
> B) reduced pressure principle backflow preventer assembly;
> 
> C) atmospheric vacuum breaker unit;
> 
> D) double check valve backflow preventer assembly;
> 
> E) double check backflow preventer with atmospheric vent assembly; or
> 
> F) dual check valve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For carbonation units, yes, real important to use stainless & no copper after the backflow device. When low or no use the carbonic gas may back up into the system and contaminate the water. Then in the morning the first few slugs shot through the fountain will have a slug. These will cause issues that mimic the flu, food poisoning and will generally dissipate with time.


It sucks that the carbonator\compressor has one brass barb that attaches to the vinyl tubing


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## Ghostmaker

my opps


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