# uponor dezincification



## klempner (Mar 4, 2011)

I run uponor and viega. Lean Uponor, but like Viega just fine. my main concern with uponor is that longrun there might be more dezincification problems. their LF brass fittings are type c69300 brass, which, according to online search, is 20-23% zinc. viega uses c87700/87710, which, according to online search, is 7-9% zinc. I like a lot of things about uponor, including how they don't twist after the fact. but i wish they had gone the bronze route like Viega, to take dezincification completely off the table. the three types of uponor brass that failed, if my online research is right, were c36000, c3770, and c35330, which range from 32-40% zinc. 20-23% is a lot better sounding, but supposedly 15% is the threshold for no problems. I'm no expert in any of this, but need to invest in tools that will run the 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 now. Dezincification should not even be a possibility--Viega figured it out. since i like both, trying to decide between the two for the the big tool purchase. and yes, i use the ep fittings for couplings and tees and such. this is basically just for water service lines upstream of irrigation.

i have taken a look at uponor's wipex fittings, but i don't like sealing pipe on the outside. these use an oring so i guess that means they seal on the outside. i also am perplexed why uponor would use dezincification proof fittings for their wipex, but not for their expansion type fittings. makes no sense. maybe 20-23% is good enough. but i would prefer 7-9%.

yes, the viega press tool is very expensive for how little i would use it. i do wonder if the press system might be an advantage in a ditch, since could have everything already assembled.

anybody know of any dezinc problems with stuff in the low 20% range?


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## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

I have not used the Viega system so have no real help to you there, but your post reminded me of something that I heard at the supply house the other day regarding Uponor EP fittings. Apparently there is a huge shortage in one of the resign compounds used in the fittings and the company has decided to stop producing them all together.


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## marc76075 (Nov 24, 2010)

They are going to be temporarily (?) Changing over to brass for couplings, reducers, and certain 1 inch fittings if I remeber correctly. I have the email in my van from uponor along with their list of fittings going to brass. I'll post it later if there's interest.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

klempner said:


> I run uponor and viega. Lean Uponor, but like Viega just fine. my main concern with uponor is that longrun there might be more dezincification problems. their LF brass fittings are type c69300 brass, which, according to online search, is 20-23% zinc. viega uses c87700/87710, which, according to online search, is 7-9% zinc. I like a lot of things about uponor, including how they don't twist after the fact. but i wish they had gone the bronze route like Viega, to take dezincification completely off the table. the three types of uponor brass that failed, if my online research is right, were c36000, c3770, and c35330, which range from 32-40% zinc. 20-23% is a lot better sounding, but supposedly 15% is the threshold for no problems. I'm no expert in any of this, but need to invest in tools that will run the 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 now. Dezincification should not even be a possibility--Viega figured it out. since i like both, trying to decide between the two for the the big tool purchase. and yes, i use the ep fittings for couplings and tees and such. this is basically just for water service lines upstream of irrigation.
> 
> i have taken a look at uponor's wipex fittings, but i don't like sealing pipe on the outside. these use an oring so i guess that means they seal on the outside. i also am perplexed why uponor would use dezincification proof fittings for their wipex, but not for their expansion type fittings. makes no sense. maybe 20-23% is good enough. but i would prefer 7-9%.
> 
> ...


Do you work in an area with water prone to DZ? If you don't, why does it matter?

Here in central Florida you can run almost any alloy of brass with no issues.
If you are working in Nevada then I would be worried. Know your water, know your material. One size does not fit all.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Protech said:


> Do you work in an area with water prone to DZ? If you don't, why does it matter?
> 
> Here in central Florida you can run almost any alloy of brass with no issues.
> If you are working in Nevada then I would be worried. *Know your water, know your material. One size does not fit all.*


*Zackly!*:thumbup:


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## klempner (Mar 4, 2011)

marc76075 said:


> They are going to be temporarily (?) Changing over to brass for couplings, reducers, and certain 1 inch fittings if I remeber correctly. I have the email in my van from uponor along with their list of fittings going to brass. I'll post it later if there's interest.


please do!

as to whether local water supply is prone, once i figure out how to check that, i will.


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## marc76075 (Nov 24, 2010)

Here's what my supply house showed me.


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

I loved the EP fittings, this sucks


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## marc76075 (Nov 24, 2010)

It's not all the ep fittings, just the ones listed. I stocked up on some 1 inch fittings and 1/2 through 1 inch coupling and reducers. They way the word it makes it sound like it's temporary, but who knows for how long.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

It's sad for the plumbing professionals to stand on the side lines while the manufacturers work the bugs out.

I still use the pex with the brass barb fittings. Still works great. I like crimping with my crimp tools. Why should I purchase an expander tool?

On a side note, a buddy plumber just recently roughed-in a house with Uponor. He was complaining about the fittings in his manifolds. He tells me that with a 1" Uponor fitting there has to be a certain amount of pipe on a tee fitting before you can put the next tee. In other words, the tee fittings in a manifold cannot be butted up to one another. He said he had to blow a big hole in a block wall in order to install his manifold. That sucks.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> It's sad for the plumbing professionals to stand on the side lines while the manufacturers work the bugs out.
> 
> I still use the pex with the brass barb fittings. Still works great. I like crimping with my crimp tools. Why should I purchase an expander tool?
> 
> On a side note, a buddy plumber just recently roughed-in a house with Uponor. He was complaining about the fittings in his manifolds. He tells me that with a 1" Uponor fitting there has to be a certain amount of pipe on a tee fitting before you can put the next tee. In other words, the tee fittings in a manifold cannot be butted up to one another. He said he had to blow a big hole in a block wall in order to install his manifold. That sucks.


I sell Expansion pex as an upgrade. Have you tried it out yet? I was a crimp only guy, but I tried uponor and prefer it now, still install more crimp though


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

They also make 3/4" tees with 2,3,4,or 5 1/2" outlets. Good for fast install and less fittings used


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

GREENPLUM said:


> I sell Expansion pex as an upgrade. Have you tried it out yet? I was a crimp only guy, but I tried uponor and prefer it now, still install more crimp though












I have another plumber friend near me who did a re-pipe on a small 2-bath house and I helped him out. He loves the Uponor with the expansion tool. I am not crazy about it. Like I said he loves it. I don't need more water piping tools. He dropped the tool on the slab and the little expander pieces all fell out. It was easy though to re-assemble and keep going.

It looks like a decent system where the pipe contracts back onto the fitting and makes a good seal. I am not a hater, I just won't be buying all the gizmos any time soon.


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## dragit (Jan 16, 2015)

I personally prefer uponor. The like the pex material. That and fittings are full port (doesn't restrict flow at every fitting). It also seems to tolerate freezing better. The rings are dirt cheap too. Don't bother using it in real cold temperatures. 

That being said, I use crimp the most. It's fast. The rings work on nearly any brand of pex pipe. And I can easily make a connection in the cold lol


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## wyplumber (Feb 14, 2013)

dragit said:


> I personally prefer uponor. The like the pex material. That and fittings are full port (doesn't restrict flow at every fitting). It also seems to tolerate freezing better. The rings are dirt cheap too. Don't bother using it in real cold temperatures.
> 
> That being said, I use crimp the most. It's fast. The rings work on nearly any brand of pex pipe. And I can easily make a connection in the cold lol



You use crimp or cinch rings?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> I have another plumber friend near me who did a re-pipe on a small 2-bath house and I helped him out. He loves the Uponor with the expansion tool. I am not crazy about it. Like I said he loves it. I don't need more water piping tools. He dropped the tool on the slab and the little expander pieces all fell out. It was easy though to re-assemble and keep going.
> 
> It looks like a decent system where the pipe contracts back onto the fitting and makes a good seal. I am not a hater, I just won't be buying all the gizmos any time soon.


the new Milwaukee hand held battery operated expander tool is very good indeed... The black plastic fittings work very well too and will certainly last much longer than the crappy brass stuff that you dont know how cheaply it was made 

The only thing I feel you should do every year is buy new expander heads...they seem to wear out over time and it is just cheaper and safer to buy yourself a new 1/2 and 3/4 head every so often and throw away the old ones...

do a whole re-pipe with a bad expander head and you will know the hell you will be stuck fixing at 5.30pm....:yes::yes:


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

We have the M12 expander tool and when it's cold outside and your using 1" or above we find ourselves using a heat gun to soften the pipe. Has anybody else experienced this. 

Even in the summer we have used the head gun in 1.5" pipe. It almost like the M12 doesn't have the power to make it happen. 

As for 3/4 or below its a nice tool to have.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

above 1" you need the 18v tool


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Most commercial in Fl is either copper or cpvc pex moving in slowly.....


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## marc76075 (Nov 24, 2010)

Most commercial places that were done in cpvc are finding out the hard way how bad of a product it is. We've done some 2 inch cpvc replacement with uponor and I'm excited that they are coming out with 3 inch expansion.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

marc76075 said:


> Most commercial places that were done in cpvc are finding out the hard way how bad of a product it is. We've done some 2 inch cpvc replacement with uponor and I'm excited that they are coming out with 3 inch expansion.


Some here as well...a Days inn we did was breaking at random many times before they got fed up It was 2" ....but the plan makers arent up to speed.....


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## dragit (Jan 16, 2015)

wyplumber said:


> dragit said:
> 
> 
> > I personally prefer uponor. The like the pex material. That and fittings are full port (doesn't restrict flow at every fitting). It also seems to tolerate freezing better. The rings are dirt cheap too. Don't bother using it in real cold temperatures.
> ...


I guess they would be considered cinch. Use the rings with the stops and a calibrated tool.

I also have the other style cinch rings (no stop) with a different tool. I don't use these hardly ever.

Before all this, I would only use APR wirsbro (expanding tool with rings). You can tow a truck with one of those connections. Brass prices phased that style out years ago though. It's a shame, cuz I think there is none better than that.


Personally never used the "crimp" style (solid ring that takes a separate tool for every size).


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

dragit said:


> I personally prefer uponor. It also seems to tolerate freezing better.


I'll call bs on that....
I've written on that here in the past complete with pics of failed Uponor PEX...

The only PEX that is worse than the rest is PEX-AL-PEX...

The real critical reason for PEX failures due to freezing is metal fittings spaced between 2" and 7" apart. Below 2" apart there isn't enough water volume to expand the PEX to failure, and above 7" there is too much PEX to absorb the small amount of expansion. The freezing starts at the fittings and works toward the center of the PEX length...


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## dragit (Jan 16, 2015)

Redwood said:


> dragit said:
> 
> 
> > I personally prefer uponor. It also seems to tolerate freezing better.
> ...


I have had more luck thawing a frozen uponor fitting/pipes than a crimp/cinchs fitting if the fitting isn't cracked. The uponor pex is designed to be expanded. The rings are the same material. And they want to return to their original shape (that's obvious because of the way they work). The other pex has more of a tendency to split and I have more leaking connections after thawing them frome a good freeze. That's just my experience with the two materials when frozen.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

dragit said:


> I have had more luck thawing a frozen uponor fitting/pipes than a crimp/cinchs fitting if the fitting isn't cracked. The uponor pex is designed to be expanded. The rings are the same material. And they want to return to their original shape (that's obvious because of the way they work). The other pex has more of a tendency to split and I have more leaking connections after thawing them frome a good freeze. That's just my experience with the two materials when frozen.


One of these days when I'm goofing off on the computer I'll find the study for you... The testing was extensive and the results of the testing with numerous brands and hundreds of freeze thaw cycles boiled down exactly as I have described...


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

stillaround said:


> above 1" you need the 18v tool


Thanks for the info, looks like I will need to buy more tools :thumbs up

Found this video. 2-3"





 - Video Tube for YouTube - iPhone/iPad


1-1.5"




 - Video Tube for YouTube - iPhone/iPad


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## dragit (Jan 16, 2015)

Redwood said:


> One of these days when I'm goofing off on the computer I'll find the study for you... The testing was extensive and the results of the testing with numerous brands and hundreds of freeze thaw cycles boiled down exactly as I have described...


Definitely! Id be interested in reading it


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

dragit said:


> Definitely! Id be interested in reading it


Here it is in this post...
http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/pex-10795/#post144472

*The 200 Word in a nutshell from the study findings booklet:*


> Combining a freeze protection method with fail-safe, freeze-tolerant cross-linked polyethylene (PEX) piping may provide a means to significantly extend the market northward for passive solar water heaters. Stress-strain data on PEX piping materials indicate that the 3.5% hoop strain from uniform freezing is likely tolerable for many cycles, but data are not definitive because it is not clear where permanent deformation starts occurring. Four PEX piping systems were freeze-thaw-cycled ~450 times. *One brand showed no freeze tolerance, whereas two other brands appear freeze-tolerant, with no bursts in lengths greater than 7” or less than 2”. Two geometries were identified that promote nonuniform freezing and that should be avoided*: 1) nonuniform insulation increasing from ends toward the middle of the pipe in longer sections; and 2) pipes of ~4” in length with metal connectors on both ends. *All metallic fittings have survived, but several polymer fittings broke and should be avoided when freeze-tolerance is desired.* Further testing and analysis is needed to better understand the length dependence of freeze bursting and effects of piping aging, and field testing should proceed cautiously.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

marc76075 said:


> Most commercial places that were done in cpvc are finding out the hard way how bad of a product it is. We've done some 2 inch cpvc replacement with uponor and I'm excited that they are coming out with 3 inch expansion.


Already here.


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