# Pro press



## Cal

Was looking at Robert's pics on a tankless install . VERY NICE !!

Am interested in the Pro Press method but am concerned about a few things :

1- expense of fittings

2- How do they work in the inevitable TIGHT SPACES ?

3- Initial costs for equip ?

Thanks !!

Cal


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## Va. Plumber

I got a pro press a few months ago for about $2,400 1/2"-2". It has come in handy in commercial for cutting in valves and capping lines. The cost of the fittings is offset in the labor cost. I personally would not do a lot of piping with it. I like the look and quality of soldering Tight places can be a b**th too.


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## Cal

Good advice ,,, Thanks !


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## Ron

There nice if you have to fix a leaking 2" water main in a motel and you can't seem to get the line free and clear of water on the 1st floor, and have little time to get it fixed. Did one the other day, 2 x 1 tee leaking, sweated the tee onto new pipe and then used 2 propress couplings 1 slip and one with stop to make the finale tie in.


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## Tankless

Ron The Plumber said:


> There nice if you have to fix a leaking 2" water main in a motel and you can't seem to get the line free and clear of water on the 1st floor, and have little time to get it fixed. Did one the other day, 2 x 1 tee leaking, sweated the tee onto new pipe and then used 2 propress couplings 1 slip and one with stop to make the finale tie in.


 
Damn....I see I have lost another friend to the dark side.

I have been thinking about it too....as if I need another thing to research about. I have a list a mile long of topics and parts I need to study on from computer parts to electrical fiber optics systems to maybe even now...ProPress......sigh....


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## Proud Plumber

Cal said:


> Good advice ,,, Thanks !


I looked at a couple of the systems about six months ago. I liked the Rothenberger tool I think it was priced less than Ridgid as well. It was smaller in size and looked a little more tight space friendly. I also liked the ridgid cordless and have used it as well. It is very user friendly. I really appreciated the system on freeze and repairs. 

I actually choose not to buy. I have been able to rent one from a Ferguson the last 2 times I needed it. I think it was roughly $25.00 a day, it worked out well.


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## WestCoastPlumber

I would only go with Ridgid, and get the 330B cordless, lithiom Ion, 1/2 to 2"

No one makes a press tool like ridgid, it is perfect. I only use Viega fittings also.

I still sweat pipe, but on specialty jobs or where the water won't stop running, or I don't have time for a drain down, ProPress, not only that, the fittings are type K, great for recirc lines.

Buy the best, spend the extra money, stay with ridgid


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## Cal

Robert ,,, What about the fitting costs ??


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## ILPlumber

Cal said:


> Robert ,,, What about the fitting costs ??


A good rule of thumb on fitting cost is 4x more than sweat.

I have boxes and boxes of PP fittings at the shop as well as 4 battery powered guns. Now, Architects are not allowing PP at alarming rates in these parts. Last 3 big ones I've got. No PP. My gut tells me PP will be used in repairs. Not in large scale new construction.


We have used it since 2002. For about 5 years there it was about all we used. Didn't hardly use it at all in 2008.


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## WestCoastPlumber

ILPlumber said:


> A good rule of thumb on fitting cost is 4x more than sweat.
> 
> I have boxes and boxes of PP fittings at the shop as well as 4 battery powered guns. Now, Architects are not allowing PP at alarming rates in these parts. Last 3 big ones I've got. No PP. My gut tells me PP will be used in repairs. Not in large scale new construction.
> 
> 
> We have used it since 2002. For about 5 years there it was about all we used. Didn't hardly use it at all in 2008.


 

Murray company here is doing alot of propress, they just finished a 18 story high rise condo project and are working on alot of other projects, they have like 60 guns in use.


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## Protech

If the fittings are that expensive, why not just use a sharkbite and save the $2k you would have spent on the tool?


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## ILPlumber

Protech said:


> If the fittings are that expensive, why not just use a sharkbite and save the $2k you would have spent on the tool?


Because it goes against every fibre of my being to use sharkbites.


Labor saved is still MUCH cheaper to use PP rather than solder. Figure it takes 30 minutes to solder a 4x4x3 tee with heating,soldering, and cleaning. With PP it takes about 2 minutes tops. Multiply that by say 100.

Now ya got 50 hours soldering and 3 hours 20 minutes PP. 2 guys working together most of the time. So soldering costs you $5000 and PP costs you $366. 

These figures are strictly pulled out of the air. I've never timed anyone soldering or PP'ing:laughing:.


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## Protech

I really don't see to much difference between a SB and a PP fitting. I don't understand how one could love PP and hate SB. They are cousins.


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## Ron

They don't make 2" Shark Bites, PP fitting don't move freely where as SB you can spin them around in circles once in place, PP are stationary, no movement at all.


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## WestCoastPlumber

Protech said:


> I really don't see to much difference between a SB and a PP fitting. I don't understand how one could love PP and hate SB. They are cousins.


 
Dude, that is an insult. You need to study how each is joinded toghether,

I can't stand sharkbites, they go on with a push and lock with teeth, the propress is a mechanical fitting.

study up about each and you will see why they are totally different, those are just 2 things. Sharkbites also leak if you push them to the side


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## ILPlumber

PP retains some look of craftsmanship.

Sharkbites are a little hackish in my mind IMO

When I install something. I like it to be somewhat permanent.


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## WestCoastPlumber

ILPlumber said:


> PP retains some look of craftsmanship.
> 
> Sharkbites are a little hackish in my mind IMO
> 
> When I install something. I like it to be somewhat permanent.


 


Very very true, sharbites are homeowner crap. A homeowner or handyman isn't gonna spend 3500 on a tool like this.

Plus, propress is considered a mechanical fitting. Sweating pipe will never go away, but somethings are just easier and better propressed. I still do my fair share of sweating.


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## Cal

ALL good points lads !!
I thank you .
Course , now that I just do service ,, not spending too much time soldering .

IF go back to new work ( if it comes back around ) I will spend the $$ on Propress

Cal


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## ILPlumber

Update:

I did zero pro-press jobs this year. Nobody is specifying it. I don't know about the rest of the country, but it is waning in IL.

Architects and engineers are denying it EVERYWHERE.

It's only saving grace may be a future med gas approval.


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## Airgap

My last 2 threads are covered in Propress...


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## SewerRatz

I been looking into propress systems ever since I used one on a job site to put in a 2 x 2 x 1 tee with a 1" ball valve. I found my sewer equipment supplier sold the fittings and as long as I bought the fittings off him he let me use his rental propress free.

I also shopped around for a propress system. His prices are the best I ever found. several hundred cheaper than any other I could find.

As to using the system everyday, no I rather solder up my pipe. I will use the system to cut in valves on lines I do not have the time to drain down, or where the main shut off will not close 100%. Heck if you can handle the water and getting wet you can press a valve on a live pipe.


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## PLUMBER_BILL

Protech said:


> If the fittings are that expensive, why not just use a sharkbite and save the $2k you would have spent on the tool?


I have concerns about SharkBite and Pro-Press Fitt's. With Global Warming occuring we here in Allentown for at least 10 years have not had severe cold weather. I don't believe that in that time either of my pipe thawers have been used more than a couple of times each year. Yet years back they were used all winter long. Now in those winters I saw 1/2, 3/4 and bigger sizes were the ice had pushed off the fitting prior to breaking or expanding the tubing. Once I read that to pull a properly soldered 3/4" 90 off of a tube at least 8 tons pressure had to be applied. Yet the ice did it easily. When the earth gets back to the way it was. Will Shark-Bite and Pro-Press stand those kind of pressures? Have they been tested for freezing conditions? How about it from those farther north? Do you have an answer to this? Will they stand up in severe freezing conditions. Or will they push off and flood structures when thaw occurs?


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## rocksteady

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Once I read that to pull a properly soldered 3/4" 90 off of a tube at least 8 tons pressure had to be applied. Yet the ice did it easily. When the earth gets back to the way it was. Will Shark-Bite and Pro-Press stand those kind of pressures?


 
I have never seen a properly soldered copper fitting pulled off of a pipe due to freezing, it doesn't get that cold here. I can't speak for pro-press but sharkbites will pull off of copper or pex due to freezing temps. I've seen that happen probably 3 or 4 times. I would expect a propress fitting to have way more grab than a shark-bite but I have no idea what they're rated or tested at.





Paul


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## 422 plumber

After seeing Airgap's experiment, I am holding off on the Pro-press.


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## user2091

Proud Plumber said:


> I looked at a couple of the systems about six months ago. I liked the Rothenberger tool I think it was priced less than Ridgid as well. It was smaller in size and looked a little more tight space friendly. I also liked the ridgid cordless and have used it as well. It is very user friendly. I really appreciated the system on freeze and repairs.
> 
> I actually choose not to buy. I have been able to rent one from a Ferguson the last 2 times I needed it. I think it was roughly $25.00 a day, it worked out well.


:thumbup:

i've used the rothenberger and it's great. it's easy to use and you can get into very small spaces with it, that you wouldn't want to with a torch!!! never had a leek. the price is just a bit more then sweat fittings maybe 2 dollars. depends. :thumbsup:


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## a4daddywagon

I, as a consulting engineer and have issues with the use of Viega ProPress, Victaulic PressFit, NIBCO Press System in new construction. They all offer a 50 year warranty and that sounds great!...until you read the fine print. Accelerated life cycle testing indicates a 50 year lifespan. So, 50 years (give or take) after a whole building is completed in one of the multiple copper press fit systems, the owner is left with a potentially ticking time bomb. Yes, 50 years seems like a long time, but how many buildings built in the 50s-60s utilizing sweat copper are riddled with leaking joints? Not many!
This may not be an issue in buildings that will see a high number of renovations or tenant turnover (due to the fact that piping will be reworked and fittings refreshed).
I know, this is a strong first post but I have a builder trying to cram the NIBCO system down an owners throat and offering a minimal credit even though the job was specified with sweat/brazed fittings. After researching the issue, I feel that I should at least shed a little light on this magic solution from my findings.


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## plbgbiz

Interesting post. Now you might want to head toward an intro post. Else the Ban Hamster is coming and Hell's coming with him.


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## Protech

Ah common, he may be an engineer, but at least he is looking out for the building owner and us plumbers. I agree with him. High rises should be designed with 100+ year plumbing. I say fire up the torch and make sure only water soluble flux is used!



plbgbiz said:


> Interesting post. Now you might want to head toward an intro post. Else the Ban Hamster is coming and Hell's coming with him.


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## RW Plumbing

I've done lots of press on bigger commercial jobs. It is quicker but not by much if you're trying to make the pipe look straight. On bigger fittings you pretty much have to tie wire the pipe down to the trapeze hangers on every hanger before pressing. Otherwise it looks like a snake going down the hallway. Offsets look not so good either, you can get _decent _with it. It never looks the same though.


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## 422 plumber

I have a friend who plumbs commercial in Chicago. On remodels, all they use is pro-press. He said it is ugly as hell. You can't get a straight run to save your life. The upside is making tie-ins to a system you can't fully drain down, and the safety factor since there are no open flames.


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## suzie

Cal said:


> Was looking at Robert's pics on a tankless install . VERY NICE !!
> 
> Am interested in the Pro Press method but am concerned about a few things :
> 
> 1- expense of fittings
> 
> 2- How do they work in the inevitable TIGHT SPACES ?
> 
> 3- Initial costs for equip ?
> 
> Thanks !!
> 
> Cal


 I found a new propress with jaws 1/2, 3/4 and 1 for $1740


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## SewerRatz

suzie said:


> I found a new propress with jaws 1/2, 3/4 and 1 for $1740


I picked up my ProPress 100B with the ½" ¾" and 1" jaws for $1200 brand new.


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## smellslike$tome

jjbex said:


> I have a friend who plumbs commercial in Chicago. On remodels, all they use is pro-press. He said it is ugly as hell. You can't get a straight run to save your life. The upside is making tie-ins to a system you can't fully drain down, and the safety factor since there are no open flames.


I recently went on a tankless water heater service call in which the ng was supplied via pro press and inadequately I might add, thus the reason for the call.

The line size was fine leading up to the regulator (2# system) but I had to replace the regulator with the correct size and repipe from there to the heater. 

I cringe every time I see or hear about propress gas systems. 50 years isn't as long as you think and I don't want to be alive when my work starts burning down houses.

Of course it wasn't propress but I wonder how old that gas main in SF was and what the final body count will be.


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## RealLivePlumber

I just did my very first press last week. 

I was installing a backflow preventer for a mechanical contractor, in a boiler room in a health care facility. He had removed the boilers, and in the process, installed a 3/4" pro press ball valve for the feed. 

I insert the tubing, and after a quick demo from them, use their tool to make the joint. I decided to solder the rest, to assure the plumbing inspector that I actually did the installation, not just stamped a permit. (There were a thousand propress joints in the room, and my 4 solder joints.)

I plugged the backflow, and turned on the water to test my joints, and don't the press joint leak.:yes::laughing::whistling2:

I'll stick with tried and true.


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## SewerRatz

RealLivePlumber said:


> I just did my very first press last week.
> 
> I was installing a backflow preventer for a mechanical contractor, in a boiler room in a health care facility. He had removed the boilers, and in the process, installed a 3/4" pro press ball valve for the feed.
> 
> I insert the tubing, and after a quick demo from them, use their tool to make the joint. I decided to solder the rest, to assure the plumbing inspector that I actually did the installation, not just stamped a permit. (There were a thousand propress joints in the room, and my 4 solder joints.)
> 
> I plugged the backflow, and turned on the water to test my joints, and don't the press joint leak.:yes::laughing::whistling2:
> 
> I'll stick with tried and true.


I had one pro press joint leak on me. I cut it out and had a close look at it and it was not seated in the socket 100%, that day I learned the importance of putting the fitting on fully and marking it with a sharpie.


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## GREENPLUM

Cal said:


> Was looking at Robert's pics on a tankless install . VERY NICE !!
> 
> Am interested in the Pro Press method but am concerned about a few things :
> 
> 1- expense of fittings
> 
> 2- How do they work in the inevitable TIGHT SPACES ?
> 
> 3- Initial costs for equip ?
> 
> Thanks !!
> 
> Cal


 
Cal, I love PP for 1 1/4" and up fixes, yea the fitting are expensive but the time factor will go way down. Ive had alot a success using PP.

BTW my supply house has a PP kit the rep left there about 1-2 years ago, they loan it out for free


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## RW Plumbing

SewerRatz said:


> I had one pro press joint leak on me. I cut it out and had a close look at it and it was not seated in the socket 100%, that day I learned the importance of putting the fitting on fully and marking it with a sharpie.


 I started out in commercial and I've probably done over a thousand press joints. It is really important to make sure the fitting is all the way on. It is very decieving sometimes thats why running a sharpie all the way around the fitting then removing it to confirm the socket is the proper depth is the only real way to do it. It takes a bit longer but, once you get in the habit of doing it, it isn't a big deal. Also I've found that putting an x over a completed press fitting is also necessary. It is hard to tell sometimes if a joint is pressed. When you're doing alot of joints it is easy to forget one, hense the X.


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## smellslike$tome

RealLivePlumber said:


> I just did my very first press last week.
> 
> I was installing a backflow preventer for a mechanical contractor, in a boiler room in a health care facility. He had removed the boilers, and in the process, installed a 3/4" pro press ball valve for the feed.
> 
> I insert the tubing, and after a quick demo from them, use their tool to make the joint. I decided to solder the rest, to assure the plumbing inspector that I actually did the installation, not just stamped a permit. (There were a thousand propress joints in the room, and my 4 solder joints.)
> 
> I plugged the backflow, and turned on the water to test my joints, and don't the press joint leak.:yes::laughing::whistling2:
> 
> I'll stick with tried and true.



I wonder if the heat from the sweat joint damaged the o-ring? On the gas repair I mentioned before, I cut the line as far away from the nearest press joint as I could for fear of melting the o-ring. This actually put the terminal end of the 2# line beyond where the regulator needed to be which forced me to use soft copper to loop the 2# line back to the inlet to the regulator.

Say you do a beautiful pro press job and 5 years from now some other plumber sweats in a repair or a branch or something resulting in damage to the press joint which doesn't fail and start flooding the place until 6 mos or a year later? Who is getting blamed? I think I know who.


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## RW Plumbing

smellslike$tome said:


> I wonder if the heat from the sweat joint damaged the o-ring? On the gas repair I mentioned before, I cut the line as far away from the nearest press joint as I could for fear of melting the o-ring. This actually put the terminal end of the 2# line beyond where the regulator needed to be which forced me to use soft copper to loop the 2# line back to the inlet to the regulator.
> 
> Say you do a beautiful pro press job and 5 years from now some other plumber sweats in a repair or a branch or something resulting in damage to the press joint which doesn't fail and start flooding the place until 6 mos or a year later? Who is getting blamed? I think I know who.


 
My question to you is, If you did the job 5 years ago, why don't you come back to sweat the fitting in. I guess it depends on how expensive the flood is. I have worked with some melted o rings on pro press and they don't flood. They do piss out water similar to a copper leak. That crimp crushes the fitting onto the pipe so It won't let go. It isn't like a shark bite where if it lets go you're in huge trouble. Lots of less risk. 

What if they soldered the Tee next to an existing solder joint you did? If they somehow turned the pipe and caused some solder to melt? In this state, if you installed the propress joint according the the approval standards of Viega, and it fails a year or more after installation you are off the hook. Now say if the fitting wasn't pushed in all the way or pressed crooked. You are liable forever in that instance. 

They limit the failure of properly installed pipe and fixtures to one year. Anything installed out of current code or, not to manufacture spec. is never out of warranty. It would be an uphill legal battle but if your talking about a flood, it could be very expensive otherwise.


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## RealLivePlumber

smellslike$tome said:


> I wonder if the heat from the sweat joint damaged the o-ring? On the gas repair I mentioned before, I cut the line as far away from the nearest press joint as I could for fear of melting the o-ring. This actually put the terminal end of the 2# line beyond where the regulator needed to be which forced me to use soft copper to loop the 2# line back to the inlet to the regulator.
> 
> Say you do a beautiful pro press job and 5 years from now some other plumber sweats in a repair or a branch or something resulting in damage to the press joint which doesn't fail and start flooding the place until 6 mos or a year later? Who is getting blamed? I think I know who.


 
I did mark the depth. A couple guys chuckled when they heard me tell my helper to get a Sharpie. Glad I did, too. 

Told them to fix it!

(The first sweat joint was 3' away, and an elbow. Cooled it with a wet rag)


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## SewerRatz

Well the 100 + joints I have made that where properly socketed and reamed on the inside and outside of the pipe, I never had a leak. My brother did have a leak on the one joint he made, he said he did not ream the outer part of the pipe just the inside.


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## RealLivePlumber

SewerRatz said:


> Well the 100 + joints I have made that where properly socketed and reamed on the inside and outside of the pipe, I never had a leak. My brother did have a leak on the one joint he made, he said he did not ream the outer part of the pipe just the inside.


I did not ream the outside of the pipe. Is that required?

The mechanical contractors guy who showed me how to use the tool made no mention of it, and watched as I did the joint,


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## RW Plumbing

RealLivePlumber said:


> I did not ream the outside of the pipe. Is that required?
> 
> The mechanical contractors guy who showed me how to use the tool made no mention of it, and watched as I did the joint,


 I have had joints where the pipe nicked the O-ring on the way into inserting it. It depends on how you cut the pipe but yeah It can cut the o-ring and it will leak. Running a file over the pipe ends takes a second and prevents that from happening.


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## SewerRatz

RealLivePlumber said:


> I did not ream the outside of the pipe. Is that required?
> 
> The mechanical contractors guy who showed me how to use the tool made no mention of it, and watched as I did the joint,


Yep it is required, the sharp edge can nick the 0-ring.


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## RW Plumbing

Once you've done a few hundred you get a feel for how to insert the pipe without damaging the O ring. Then you can forgo filing if you use a tubing cutter to cut the pipe. That doesn't leave too much of a burr and it isn't hard to get it over. Using a sawzall or something still needs to be filed as it almost always leaves a sharp outside edge.


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## SewerRatz

Here is the instructions.


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## smellslike$tome

RW Plumbing said:


> My question to you is, If you did the job 5 years ago, why don't you come back to sweat the fitting in. I guess it depends on how expensive the flood is. I have worked with some melted o rings on pro press and they don't flood. They do piss out water similar to a copper leak. That crimp crushes the fitting onto the pipe so It won't let go. It isn't like a shark bite where if it lets go you're in huge trouble. Lots of less risk.
> 
> What if they soldered the Tee next to an existing solder joint you did? If they somehow turned the pipe and caused some solder to melt? In this state, if you installed the propress joint according the the approval standards of Viega, and it fails a year or more after installation you are off the hook. Now say if the fitting wasn't pushed in all the way or pressed crooked. You are liable forever in that instance.
> 
> They limit the failure of properly installed pipe and fixtures to one year. Anything installed out of current code or, not to manufacture spec. is never out of warranty. It would be an uphill legal battle but if your talking about a flood, it could be very expensive otherwise.


Hope you didn't take that the wrong way. I'm by no means on an anti pro press crusade. If you like it, great, use it. I won't use it for reasons that have nothing to do with what I fear may happen to it sometime in the future. When I became aware of propress, I already carried on my truck: sweat gear for copper pipe, 2 different pex systems, a small assortment of cpvc fittings and pipe (which never get used btw), a good assortment of galvi and brass fittings and nipples, a handful of sharkbites (yes I said it because I will come across one or two cases a year in which nothing else makes any better sense), and even a nice selection of pvc pressure fittings and pressure pipe. For me it was an out and out rebellion against the pipe industry. I simply refused to purchase any more tools or to allocate any more of the limited truck space to carry these tools and fittings. I just drew a line in the sand and said "no more".

Having said that, they are in fact suspect to me mostly because I can't control what someone who comes behind me might do. I've done some restaurant work in the past and I would lose the account every time a new GM took over (which in some places is quite often) and then I'd have to go take the account back but in the mean time some other manager would have called some other plumbing company who had come and done something or other. So my point is that I really don't have confidence in it down the road, especially when I can't control what happens to it or how it is handled 24/7. For me there just seems to be a lot of downside potential.


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## RW Plumbing

I hear what you're saying there. Thats part of the appeal of the propress system to me. They have jaws for copper and Pex. It seems like it can do different things with the same tool. If your attaching copper to Pex as so often I do, they make propress x pex adapters. You put that all together with the same tool so it really is a fast process. 

I hate the idea of buying another tool expecially a 2K dollar one. I am thinking about selling a portable generator,(you dont want it do you?). This will cover some of the expense. I have 2 generators both of which just sit there anyhow. Propress is expensive. That is the other problem. 


i think for service work bring fittings and one tool for copper or pex seems really appealing. The 2K price tag isn't though. And like you said what if the system is abandoned. Then you are out of luck. Propress has been around for 8-10 years around here though so thats a good indication.


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## Tommy plumber

Years ago you had to be a real plumber and soldering technique counted for something especially in service. Now anybody can do it.


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## RW Plumbing

Soldering counts in commercial still. Expecially in mechanical rooms. That piping remains exposed and soldering still is appreciated there.


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