# Water heater help pl



## budders (May 19, 2013)

Here is the run down. 3 aprtments all on second floor all have separate water heaters. Apartment A. Has hot water for about 3 min then goes cold. And that happens at all fixtures. Its a 30 gal electric. The w/h is old as hell not worth putting any money into. So i install new 30 gal electric. 2 days go by and problem is still there. Both elements work power works. The only weird thing is when running hot water in apartment the hot side of the water heater is luke warm an the cold inlet gets hotter and hotter. Now i have traced all pipes in basement i have not piped it wrong. I cant figure out why its doing this i drew a small pic of the lay out. Any advise or help would be appreciated. Im thinking maby putting a sprig loaded check on the cold side and see if that helps. But atm. I look like a poop head.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

and.....


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## Nathan901 (Feb 11, 2012)

Moentrol?


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

Here is pic


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

possibly a bad shower valve allowing hot and cold to constantly mix even when shower isnt being used?


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## mrjasontgreek (May 21, 2014)

My money's on a cross connection of some kind


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

I thought that but why is the cold inlet on the water heater hot like really hot an the hot pipe warm when running any hot water in the apartment. Im talkin with in the first 4 plus inches commin off the top if the tank.


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## mrjasontgreek (May 21, 2014)

One of the apartments has a portable dishwasher left on the kitchen sink?


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

No dishwashers and no toilet tank warmer things that prevent sweating


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

And the water heater isnt stacked top element set at 130 and bottom set at 145


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

feel the washing machine hoses if there is one in the unit


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## mrjasontgreek (May 21, 2014)

Hmmmm... It has to be back feeding somehow, no other way for the cold side to go hot... Unless one of the other water heaters is back feeding into your heater somehow, but that wouldn't explain the no hot water to your unit


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## mrjasontgreek (May 21, 2014)

Hot and cold outside taps connected together?


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

mrjasontgreek said:


> Hot and cold outside taps connected together?


 i dont understand? Taps on the hot water heater? Nope no luck there. A no washing machine hook ups.


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## mrjasontgreek (May 21, 2014)

Outside hose bibbs, hot and cold tied together with one of those wye hoses


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

mrjasontgreek said:


> Hmmmm... It has to be back feeding somehow, no other way for the cold side to go hot... Unless one of the other water heaters is back feeding into your heater somehow, but that wouldn't explain the no hot water to your unit


 right i feel and have tested the other water heAters all is normal and te cold main that feeds them stays cold. Litterly the weirdest problem i have ever faced.


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

mrjasontgreek said:


> Outside hose bibbs, hot and cold tied together with one of those wye hoses


 o i c nope one silcock and its 2 foot off the main


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## mrjasontgreek (May 21, 2014)

Follow the hot water back the cold line and see where it leads you


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

Sadly all looks good till it goes up out of the basement then i cant see them


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## mrjasontgreek (May 21, 2014)

I meant feel your way along to trace the back feeding water, but if you say it's only going back a bit and stopping, not going into the main then it's still got to be just a cross connection. Maybe a handheld shower with a shutoff and they left the shower valve on?


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

Hmm the valve is a sysmons with the diverter from tub to shower. As for the hot it only climes up to about 3 inches from the 1inch main.


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

Possibly broken dip tube?


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## mrjasontgreek (May 21, 2014)

tim666 said:


> Possibly broken dip tube?


I thought that too, but not likely in two different tanks, and there's hot water travelling a few feet back the cold water line while a hot tap is open. That suggests to me that there's a cross connection somewhere else bypassing the water heater altogether


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

I thought bad dip tube in the first place thts why i replaced it with a new w/h. But problem remains


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## mrjasontgreek (May 21, 2014)

This may be a long shot, could another tenant be trying to steal their hot water and tied your clients hot into their cold? I'm sure if you trace out the hot water lines you'll find a cross connection somewhere.


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

If it were a cross conectiion why would i get ot water up the cold side? Cold water pressure strong enough to push hot water back up the dip tube? And isnt there a check on the tube?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Assuming all piping is correct and shower valve is correct... 

The symptoms sound like water heater is plumbed backwards, dip tube is missing, or dip tube is on wrong side. Makes no sense that it would happen before and after the replacement.

Me thinks there is a hidden cross connection.


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

Locked mechanical room and i still haven't found any cross connection. Its one of those problems where u feel like throwing your hands up and saying call someone else. But im still way to early in the owning your own bussness game to be just trowing away customers I'm debating changing out the shower valve and if that doesn't work offering the install for free and the valve at cost.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Turn the valve off on the W/H and leave it off for about {5} minutes. Then open it. Do this with all the fixtures closed in the unit. If you hear water running in to fill the heater, then there is a sub-terranean leak somewhere. 

This is common with slab-on-grade constuction.


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## mrjasontgreek (May 21, 2014)

The fact that the cold water starts to get hot but doesn't keep getting hot back the line, while there is water running through a hot outlet suggests that no water is travelling through the water heater. If you can't find anything else the shower valve is probably a good place to go if you're going to start the process of elimination


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Have you gotten any feedback about when the tenants first noticed the problem? Was it sudden or did it build up over time? Did something happen right before their loss of hot water?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Another thing to check is to find out if there is a re-circ pump with a defective check valve. You need to get into that mechanical room ASAP.


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## mytxplumber (Jul 28, 2013)

I have ran into similar problems before in apartments. One time was the hot and cold reversed and the maintenance man had crossed some of the connections in a recent repair. You have to find out how long this has been going on for to start. The next thing is you need access the everything in the building or I would not waste my time there. The biggest problem I find is the apartment maintenance guys playing plumber. I have found some problems with thermal IR cameras too. Most likely you will find a cross connection somewhere but again the place to start is with how long has this been going on and what other problems have they been fixing lately. I have seen it all with maintenance men at work. Good luck


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> Assuming all piping is correct and shower valve is correct... The symptoms sound like water heater is plumbed backwards, dip tube is missing, or dip tube is on wrong side. Makes no sense that it would happen before and after the replacement. Me thinks there is a hidden cross connection.


 deffinitly not piped wrong i followed the main from the meter to te water heaters the other 2 heaters are piped of the same cold branch. Could be bad dip tube direct out of the factory but 2 tanks same problem probibly not the tube


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

Plumbus said:


> Have you gotten any feedback about when the tenants first noticed the problem? Was it sudden or did it build up over time? Did something happen right before their loss of hot water?


 they moved in a few months ago and have ha this problem the hole time.


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

Tommy plumber said:


> Turn the valve off on the W/H and leave it off for about {5} minutes. Then open it. Do this with all the fixtures closed in the unit. If you hear water running in to fill the heater, then there is a sub-terranean leak somewhere. This is common with slab-on-grade constuction.


 ill try that monday tyvm for the insite


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## mrjasontgreek (May 21, 2014)

Best of luck, hope you find it.


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

Also no recirt pumps. And i thank all of you guys for your imput and help. I really appreciate it. I will further investigate and try to post video and pics when i get back there monday. And any and all thoughts,comments an feed back are welcome.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

remove trim on shower valve and feel both inlets. i did that on a problem house last year and both felt hot without the shower turned on. they had hot water at hot and cold faucets..i replaced the guts and problem solved.


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## plumsolver (Apr 7, 2011)

Check showers, tubs for hand held units that have there own shutoff had a customer once who left moen valve on and just shut it off at hand held took us forever to see the mien valve pulled out...


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

budders said:


> Here is the run down. 3 aprtments all on second floor all have separate water heaters. Apartment A. Has hot water for about 3 min then goes cold. And that happens at all fixtures. Its a 30 gal electric. The w/h is old as hell not worth putting any money into. So i install new 30 gal electric. 2 days go by and problem is still there. Both elements work power works. The only weird thing is when running hot water in apartment the hot side of the water heater is luke warm an the cold inlet gets hotter and hotter. Now i have traced all pipes in basement i have not piped it wrong. I cant figure out why its doing this i drew a small pic of the lay out. Any advise or help would be appreciated. Im thinking maby putting a sprig loaded check on the cold side and see if that helps. But atm. I look like a poop head.


Go and shut all the stops off to as many fixtures as you can then start investigation,if possible sweat valves on tub and showers and washer boxes


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## evilcyrus (Apr 27, 2009)

I had kinda sane problem in condo building.... 14 floors run hot water no problm n then outta blue would go cold...on one riser... I knew exactly what problm was it was just finding it.... I walked stairwell to each floor listening n knockn on doors N bam i heard a drill , bingo a reno , walked in reno found shower valve plumber left r.i cartridge in valve n partions on valve open ... A cross conection,.. I lookd amazing that day found it in less then 10 mins...


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

probably a delta. i hate delta for that reason.i had it before


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> probably a delta. i hate delta for that reason.i had it before


we installed moen tub/shower faucets on a hotel one time and had alot of trouble with hot and cold water cross connecting,but they didnt have built in checks either.really any commercial faucet like that needs the built in checks and shut-off valves.:yes:


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

So update. Could not find a cross conection any wear so i shut off all the cold sides in apt and still didn't help. I went down stairs and shut off the other 2 water heaters went back up stairs and boom no hot water in the apartment the building owner had me working on the wrong water heater. I had asked him 3 differnt times are you sure this is the right water heater and he swar up an down thats the one. And the reasons for the cold freed going hot was the middle water heater was pulling the hot water up the dip tube. So lesson here is always do your own homework. And again i thank you all for your help. I replaced te middle water heater and all is well followed by a 26 hour trouble shooting bill and 2 new water heater installs.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Good job. It's satisfying to find a solution.


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

Tommy plumber said:


> Good job. It's satisfying to find a solution.


 yes it was to bad the solution was so simple. It was over looked


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

we, like you, assumed you had the right heater good job.:thumbsup:


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

Turn off all hot water and go around checking double handled fixtures(hot side) to see if any water comes out, cross connection


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

budders said:


> So update. Could not find a cross conection any wear so i shut off all the cold sides in apt and still didn't help. I went down stairs and shut off the other 2 water heaters went back up stairs and boom no hot water in the apartment the building owner had me working on the wrong water heater. I had asked him 3 differnt times are you sure this is the right water heater and he swar up an down thats the one. And the reasons for the cold freed going hot was the middle water heater was pulling the hot water up the dip tube. So lesson here is always do your own homework. And again i thank you all for your help. I replaced te middle water heater and all is well followed by a 26 hour trouble shooting bill and 2 new water heater installs.


Just for ****s and giggles,what did you end up charging for the troubleshooting,and for the installs???


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

sparky said:


> Just for ****s and giggles,what did you end up charging for the troubleshooting,and for the installs???


 3150.00 and he paid it with out a word


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

budders said:


> 3150.00 and he paid it with out a word


Cool:thumbup:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Mix and matched water heaters in the wrong units on different floors? Who'd a thunk it. :blink:


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