# Heat pump water heaters



## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

I haven't put one in yet, but a number of towns in my area have outlawed gas in new homes, so it's gonna happen sooner or later.
It so happens I have a vacation home which currently has a decade plus electric heater where gas is not an option due to structural and temperature concerns.
Therefor, I plan on installing one and kick the tires myself.
Anyone have experience with these units that you'd like to share?


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

No gas in new construction?!?!

That wouldn’t fly in Michigan! My furnace went out this spring and my lazy azz didn’t get to it till after it got cold. I ran an oil filled space heater in the basement, a space heater in the living room. I would also run my big lp burner for 10-15 minutes every hour or so. it’s really going to mess with our budget plan!


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

So, I take it you know nothing about heat pump water heaters?


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Plumbus said:


> I haven't put one in yet, but a number of towns in my area have outlawed gas in new homes, so it's gonna happen sooner or later.
> It so happens I have a vacation home which currently has a decade plus electric heater where gas is not an option due to structural and temperature concerns.
> Therefor, I plan on installing one and kick the tires myself.
> Anyone have experience with these units that you'd like to share?


I assuming you're talking about electric models with a heat pump on top as well, although this all applies to separate heat pumps as well.

They're pretty good, really depends on the area you put them in because they suck the heat from the air. We tell the customer that if they already run a dehumidifier than the heat pump will replace it and they should see a good amount of savings compared to a standard electric water heater.

If they have a relatively cool, dry basement than they will see less savings but still some. If they heat the basement air with oil or gas the numbers still swing in favor of the heat pump saving money over a standard electric even when you account for the extra heat the heating system must produce.

As for reliability, we've installed a number of them over the past 5 years and they've been pretty good. We install state.

If you're talking about standalone heat pumps than all of the benefits apply and they are usually easier to fix as they are physically larger. I have one in my basement that ran great for almost 20 years until recently. If I get a chance I might fix it, I think it's just the gas pressure sensor cut-out switch. I could over ride it......


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## jtmell (Apr 27, 2013)

Iv'e installed a few ,Two months ago installed a 50 gal aosmith in my home , you have to have enough cubic air space , I think 700, They will also produce condensate so a drain or a pump. My model has three settings , Heatpump , Hybrid and straight electric. I have left mine on heat pump and I have not had a problem as I live alone. 50 gal is probably too small for a family.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

I am talking about a hybrid unit. My location is a laundry room which the manufacturer (AO Smith-State) says is a good fit. The room has at least 800 cu ft. It will capture some of the heat shed by the washer and dryer.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

jtmell said:


> Iv'e installed a few ,Two months ago installed a 50 gal aosmith in my home , you have to have enough cubic air space , I think 700, They will also produce condensate so a drain or a pump. My model has three settings , Heatpump , Hybrid and straight electric. I have left mine on heat pump and I have not had a problem as I live alone. 50 gal is probably too small for a family.





Plumbus said:


> I am talking about a hybrid unit. My location is a laundry room which the manufacturer (AO Smith-State) says is a good fit. The room has at least 800 cu ft. It will capture some of the heat shed by the washer and dryer.


We almost always install the 80 gallon versions, only done a couple 60s. And yeah, that laundry room will be perfect. We had one guy where his dryer just vented into the basement next to the heater, which happens a lot around here, he got a nice electric bill savings.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

skoronesa said:


> We almost always install the 80 gallon versions, only done a couple 60s. And yeah, that laundry room will be perfect. We had one guy where his dryer just vented into the basement next to the heater, which happens a lot around here, he got a nice electric bill savings.


I was thinking 50 gal, but judging by your comments, is that too small? Mostly just 2 occupants, but occasionally as many as 4 or 5.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Plumbus said:


> I was thinking 50 gal, but judging by your comments, is that too small? Mostly just 2 occupants, but occasionally as many as 4 or 5.


Occasionally 4 or 5? then occasionally it won't be enough. *Size it like you would a straight electric heater. The heat pump doesn't add capacity, it only helps with efficiency.*

Depending on the environmental conditions you may not be able to rely on the heat pump aspect. For instance, if the area becomes very cool and dry. Also, if the heat pump does fail you don't want them dead in the water.

On the positive side, having it be as large as possible will help the heat pump do most of the work when it's set to maximum efficiency mode. The energy cost savings will more than make up for the higher upfront cost.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Not convinced on these unless you have no natural gas or propane available. Your looking at an approximate savings of $300.00 to $350.00 a year for a family of 4 (over a plain electric WH). Maybe $3,000.00 to $3,500.00 over the life of it.

This doesn't include the initial price difference between a standard gas. So near $900.00 more off the bat.

High demand your still going to use the electric elements and the electric cost is greater than gas.

I've worked with ground based heat pumps that supplement electric water heaters. Pretty simple if you already have a geo-furnace, to me that makes sense.

Colder climates further reduce efficiency.

If your all electric, it makes sense.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

GAN said:


> ...........If your all electric, it makes sense.


Most of our customers have oil for heat and not gas. They'll have a boiler or furnace and an electric water heater. 

We try to sell them a gas or oil option but often these are just simpler in their minds. It's not the best solution, just a better solution than only elements. And like I said, a lot of them run dehumidifiers so the savings is much better than you would otherwise see.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

skoronesa said:


> Occasionally 4 or 5? then occasionally it won't be enough. *Size it like you would a straight electric heater. The heat pump doesn't add capacity, it only helps with efficiency.*


My question was directed to the recovery relative to a standard electric tank, not the size. The house has always had a 50 gal and even with the increased demand I haven't heard any complaints about no HW. Since it's a vacation home, I'm not as concerned as if it were a 365 situation. 




GAN said:


> Not convinced on these unless you have no natural gas or propane available. Your looking at an approximate savings of $300.00 to $350.00 a year for a family of 4 (over a plain electric WH). Maybe $3,000.00 to $3,500.00 over the life of it.


The laundry room is in the middle of the house with a story above. I don't fancy the idea of stripping a bunch of walls and ceilings to daylight a flue. And, a crawlspace tankless gas unit would also entail a lot of heavy lifting.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

so now are we plumbers and ac guys? how do i service something with freon? maybe i am ignorant? i thought heat pumps were for heating guys. how do i dispose of the old one? i have nothing to reclaim it.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Plumbus said:


> My question was directed to the recovery relative to a standard electric tank, not the size. .............


They do not recover as fast when used in heat pump mode because the heat pump replaces one of the elements in the circuit.

They do have an option to set them to only elements so if your customer had lots of guests coming they could do that.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> so now are we plumbers and ac guys? how do i service something with freon? maybe i am ignorant? i thought heat pumps were for heating guys. how do i dispose of the old one? i have nothing to reclaim it.


In some states a plumbing license allows you to do both normal plumbing and hvac work. If you take one out you must have the refrigarant recoved in the same fashion as any other appliance like a fridge or window air conditioner. 

In our town the dump has a reclaim pile and when the pile gets big bubba grabs a shotgun.....out of his passenger seat to make room for jim so they can haul the appliances to a recovery center.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

i dont have an hvac license. how can i legally install one


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> i dont have an hvac license. how can i legally install one


The same way you install a regular electric. The heat pump is a self contained unit on top of the heater. It takes heat from the air around the heater so it does not need lines run outside.

Just make sure you have an electrician hook up the 220v like always


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

We have installed a few of them, none have leaked yet and 
I dont plan on working on the heat pump if it goes out... I have seen a large number of them
in the trash heaps at many supply houses, maybe under warranty and many not ... 
you might want to check into the warranty issues ,,, I know that they will replace the unit
if the unit leaks, but if the heat pump goes out will they just give you a new unit??

I question the pay back and how many years it will take


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

I have another question relating to electric water heaters in general..
Can the shut off be set up so the unit can be operated remotely, by a phone app or other means? Since this is a vacation home, it is often vacant and a remote would come in handy.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Plumbus said:


> I have another question relating to electric water heaters in general..
> Can the shut off be set up so the unit can be operated remotely, by a phone app or other means? Since this is a vacation home, it is often vacant and a remote would come in handy.


*We install honeywell redlink *systems so people can use the phone app to control their heating systems. I see no reason you couldn't set the water heater up to be seen as a heat zone in the app and* just switch the 220v with a relay followed by a contactor.*

Not sure how you would set it up to change between the different efficiency mode settings though.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Plumbus said:


> I have another question relating to electric water heaters in general..
> Can the shut off be set up so the unit can be operated remotely, by a phone app or other means? Since this is a vacation home, it is often vacant and a remote would come in handy.



Why not just unplug the thing when you are gone and plug it in when you show up again??
Just forget all the special wifi things that will eventually go wrong

I guess you want it to cook you dinner too???


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> Why not just unplug the thing when you are gone and plug it in when you show up again??
> Just forget all the special wifi things that will eventually go wrong
> ............


*
He's talking about a hardwired 220v apppliance.*

As for the wifi control failing, you could just as easily have your electrician wire in a second disconnect that bypasses the wifi controlled contactor.

The benefit is turning the heater on an hour before you arrive so you can shower immediately.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

skoronesa said:


> *He's talking about a hardwired 220v apppliance.*
> 
> As for the wifi control failing, you could just as easily have your electrician wire in a second disconnect that bypasses the wifi controlled contactor.
> 
> The benefit is turning the heater on an hour before you arrive so you can shower immediately.


Exactly. Also, having a remote can overcome forgetfulness on the way out the door.


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## RichardBull (Jan 7, 2021)

Personally I’d just flip the breaker on the way out the door. That’s keeping it simple.

that’s said if I wanted wifi control I’d get the Rheem tank thank has wifi and leak detection.


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## jtmell (Apr 27, 2013)

IMPORTANT: The anode protecting the tank requires power to the unit to operate. Do not shut off power to the unit for an extended period of time. If power must be turned off, drain the tank completely to minimize corrosion.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

jtmell said:


> IMPORTANT: The anode protecting the tank requires power to the unit to operate. Do not shut off power to the unit for an extended period of time. If power must be turned off, drain the tank completely to minimize corrosion.


The phuck are you talking about? I know they have made powered anodes, but the vast majority use magnesium/aluminum anode rods that DO NOT require power.

Electrically powered anodes died in the 90's along with day glo and faucets that lift and spin.


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## A Good Plumber (Jun 18, 2008)

Plumbus said:


> I haven't put one in yet, but a number of towns in my area have outlawed gas in new homes, so it's gonna happen sooner or later.
> It so happens I have a vacation home which currently has a decade plus electric heater where gas is not an option due to structural and temperature concerns.
> Therefor, I plan on installing one and kick the tires myself.
> Anyone have experience with these units that you'd like to share?


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## A Good Plumber (Jun 18, 2008)

Plumbus said:


> I haven't put one in yet, but a number of towns in my area have outlawed gas in new homes, so it's gonna happen sooner or later.
> It so happens I have a vacation home which currently has a decade plus electric heater where gas is not an option due to structural and temperature concerns.
> Therefor, I plan on installing one and kick the tires myself.
> Anyone have experience with these units that you'd like to share?


Scott, we've installed 6 of these recently and get asked to quote them regularly. They work real well. If you have a 40-50 gallon gas heater now, you need to consider the 65 gallon at a minimum. Remember, that because there is no gas, the recovery is low, even when the full electric option is on and the added storage will be necessary. 
All of the installations we did were in garages and the "cooling" effect from the heat pump, cools the garage, so it makes a great place for storing your wine.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

jtmell said:


> IMPORTANT: The anode protecting the tank requires power to the unit to operate. Do not shut off power to the unit for an extended period of time. If power must be turned off, drain the tank completely to minimize corrosion.


why dont you post a link to where that info came from......because it makes no sense..


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> *He's talking about a hardwired 220v apppliance.*
> 
> As for the wifi control failing, you could just as easily have your electrician wire in a second disconnect that bypasses the wifi controlled contactor.
> 
> The benefit is turning the heater on an hour before you arrive so you can shower immediately.



I thought that this was supposed to be a cabin out in the woods,,,??,, 
so why not install a bidet too so they can have 
their asses washed clean after the long drive too..... hook that up to wi-fi so the water is all
warm and poofey for their buttholes.....

Those wi-fi things are not very reliable and are more trouble than they are worth....
just turn off the breaker when you leave and turn it on again when you show up.....

Unless you are a spoiled Democrat it should not be that much of an inconvenience
to wait 20 minutes for it to warm up.....


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## jtmell (Apr 27, 2013)

it is a powered anode , from aosmith service handbook


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## jtmell (Apr 27, 2013)

https://www.hotwater.com/lit/training/321547-000.pdf


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

jtmell said:


> it is a powered anode , from aosmith service handbook


Yeah, no one uses those, at least no one in my area does anymore and I bet you no one on this forum uses them either.

We already have a thread about galvanic corrosion and anodes and all that jazz, you should check it out.


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## jtmell (Apr 27, 2013)

apparently aosmith uses them on their hybrid water heaters.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

jtmell said:


> apparently aosmith uses them on their hybrid water heaters.



Thank you for the information, I never knew a.o.smith actually had powered anode systems
built into their more expensive hybred power vented units...... 
probably not a bad idea considering what you have to 
pay for one of those things...... But Smith is still junk in my opinion


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## RichardBull (Jan 7, 2021)

Speaking of ekectric water heaters anyone ever use one 30amp circuit to run a few water heaters ? 

You just install a upper thermostat where the lower thermostat should be the go to the next heater with the power.....theoretically you could install as many as you wanted until you maxed the length of the circuit out.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

jtmell said:


> apparently aosmith uses them on their hybrid water heaters.


interesting..something more to go wrong...must be a reason its not used in electric water heaters or in other heaters if it was so good...???


Checking the Powered Anode for Proper Operation:When dissimilar metals are in contact with water, a galvanic cell will likely result and corrosion of the metal components will occur. If left unchecked, corrosion will weaken the wall of a water heater tank which will eventually leak. Passive anodes are typically used to counteract this corrosion and extend tank life. Passive anodes erode over time and become less effective until they stop working all together, another type of protective device is a powered anode. A powered anode is an active device that counteracts galvanic corrosion in the water heater tank. Unlike a standard depleting anode, a powered anode does not lose effectiveness over time. The powered anode circuit is made up of an electronic control, a titanium anode rod, and the water heater tank. The electronic control monitors conditions in the tank and produces a voltage that will prevent galvanic corrosion from occurring. The titanium anode rod consists of two functional parts: A steel body which threads into the tank providing mechanical and electrical connection to the tank and a titanium rod that is electrically insulated from the body. The voltage produced by the powered anode circuit is delivered to the titanium anode rod by a red wire connected to the tab that connects to the anode rod. Current fl ows from the titanium anode rod, through the water and to the grounded tank wall. The powered anode circuitry will maintain the minimum voltage required to protect the tank steel.Fault detection is built into the powered anode software. If a fault is detected, an error message will be displayed on the User Interface Module (UIM): “Powered Anode Fault”. By checking the fault code history, see “Accessing the Maintenance Display” (p.21), a specifi c fault code can be read to aid in isolating the cause. Refer to the “Fault Code Troubleshooting Guide” (p39-44) for the list of powered anode fault messages, what the messages indicate, possible causes, and corrective actions.IMPORTANT: The anode protecting the tank requires power to the unit to operate. Do not shut off power to the unit for an extended period of time. If power must be turned off, drain the tank completely to minimize corrosion.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

RichardBull said:


> Speaking of ekectric water heaters anyone ever use one 30amp circuit to run a few water heaters ?
> 
> You just install a upper thermostat where the lower thermostat should be the go to the next heater with the power.....theoretically you could install as many as you wanted until you maxed the length of the circuit out.


once you alter a factory unit your liable for all that comes your way....show a schematic of the wiring...


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## RichardBull (Jan 7, 2021)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> once you alter a factory unit your liable for all that comes your way....show a schematic of the wiring...


So what 🤪

The wiring is simple, just replace the lower thermo with an upper and continue to the next heater from there....


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

RichardBull said:


> So what 🤪
> 
> The wiring is simple, just replace the lower thermo with an upper and continue to the next heater from there....


and how many can you connect in a row before you max out the breaker?


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## RichardBull (Jan 7, 2021)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> and how many can you connect in a row before you max out the breaker?


Only one element runs at a time no matter how many heaters you link. So the limit would be determined by the resistance of the circuit. Eventually you’d max out the 30amp circuits length

As each thermostat is thermally satisfied it switches the power to the next thermostat snd subsequent element. And so on down the line....

Electrically the heaters are acting like one big water heater. Make sense ?

It’ll never pull more amps than the elements wattage divided by the voltage applied. It’s still operating as a non-simultaneous element fired heater.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

RichardBull said:


> Only one element runs at a time no matter how many heaters you link. So the limit would be determined by the resistance of the circuit. Eventually you’d max out the 30amp circuits length
> 
> As each thermostat is thermally satisfied it switches the power to the next thermostat snd subsequent element. And so on down the line....
> 
> ...


no sense at all...why not wire all the heaters to run and make a parallel manifold to draw from them if you have that heavier of load for hot water...


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> Unless you are a spoiled Democrat it should not be that much of an inconvenience
> to wait 20 minutes for it to warm up.....


I am not. But, my wife is.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Plumbus said:


> I am not. But, my wife is.


well you married her..cant pin that on anyone else...


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

This is the model my AS Smith/State rep is suggesting I use.


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## RichardBull (Jan 7, 2021)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> no sense at all...why not wire all the heaters to run and make a parallel manifold to draw from them if you have that heavier of load for hot water...


You’re talking apples and I’m talking oranges. 

Many things can be done, I’m just discussing a way to have a lot of standby water when you only have one 30 amp circuit. Just a discussion about how it CAN be done, not one about the best way.


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## RichardBull (Jan 7, 2021)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> no sense at all...why not wire all the heaters to run and make a parallel manifold to draw from them if you have that heavier of load for hot water...


You’re talking apples and I’m talking oranges. 

Many things can be done, I’m just discussing a way to have a lot of standby water when you only have one 30 amp circuit. Just a discussion about how it CAN be done, not one about the best way.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

RichardBull said:


> Only one element runs at a time no matter how many heaters you link. So the limit would be determined by the resistance of the circuit. Eventually you’d max out the 30amp circuits length
> .........


Assuming every other aspect of this is approved by code your limiting factor is going to be the fact that 10ga wire is rated to 30amps ONLY for the first 100'. Unless you're going to run 8ga, which would be fantastic to work with....

I agree you're right from an electrical standpoint but let's face it, we must think of code too. When you're daisy chaining 10 water heaters someone is going to ask if it's considered "safe" by the NEC.


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## RichardBull (Jan 7, 2021)

I wouldn’t do it for a customer but I’ll do as I please at my house. There’s nothing unsafe about it.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

RichardBull said:


> I wouldn’t do it for a customer but I’ll do as I please at my house. There’s nothing unsafe about it.


call your insurance company and ask if it burns will they pay the claim....little things like this , insurance companies love to NOT pay a claim if they can find anything to blame the home owner for..


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## Dontbitenails (Oct 16, 2020)

You can do as many as you want as long as only one element is firing at a time


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## RichardBull (Jan 7, 2021)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> call your insurance company and ask if it burns will they pay the claim....little things like this , insurance companies love to NOT pay a claim if they can find anything to blame the home owner for..


My insurance company will pay unless I intentionally set the fire. Yes, I’ve asked about electrical work, burning trash in my yard, It’s all covered.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Everything's covered....until you make a claim.


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## RichardBull (Jan 7, 2021)

Plumbus said:


> Everything's covered....until you make a claim.


I suppose you’re right. I’ve never had to make a claim, personal or business. I guess that’s a testament to the quality of work and materials I choose along with being taught wrong from right, with a dash of luck. ✌👍


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## RichardBull (Jan 7, 2021)

I think my idea is safer than an electric space heater from China bought on Amazon.
🤪🤪🤪. Or those smelly oil burners that plug into an outlet. How about those lithium ion batteries in kids toys ? 
Friend of mine almost had his house burnt down by an old battery thrown into a toy box. Came into the room with the toy chest on fire 🔥 ran out with it dripping plastic 🔥🔥🔥🔥


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

RichardBull said:


> I think my idea is safer than an electric space heater from China bought on Amazon.
> 🤪🤪🤪. Or those smelly oil burners that plug into an outlet. How about those lithium ion batteries in kids toys ?
> Friend of mine almost had his house burnt down by an old battery thrown into a toy box. Came into the room with the toy chest on fire 🔥 ran out with it dripping plastic 🔥🔥🔥🔥


Safety of your product doesn't matter when you sell your product in another country with no fear of extradition.

You think the company that makes those toys will be prosecuted? Even domestic manufacturers will just declare bankruptcy, dissolve, an reform as another llc.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

RichardBull said:


> I suppose you’re right. I’ve never had to make a claim, personal or business. I guess that’s a testament to the quality of work and materials I choose along with being taught wrong from right, with a dash of luck. ✌👍


You must be the luckiest plumber in the country. I buy quality as well, but I've dealt with defective product a number of times. In fact, most of my hidden defects over the years have been due to product and not installation.


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## RichardBull (Jan 7, 2021)

Plumbus said:


> You must be the luckiest plumber in the country. I buy quality as well, but I've dealt with defective product a number of times. In fact, most of my hidden defects over the years have been due to product and not installation.


I’ve had defective products but it’s never caused damage enough to make a claim.


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