# Toilet losing trap seal - vent clogged?



## mtfallsmikey

6 story building,one toilet in a men's bathroom (2nd floor) is losing it's trap seal, three toilets in the bank, battery vented, done under '96 BOCA, all toilets are Crane. No visible leak/crack in the bowl, flush valve ok, flush action good, no gurgling or bubbling, takes about 2 days for the water level to drop. Had a problem like this in my other building on one toilet, replaced with new bowl, stopped the problem. Lots of negative air pressure inside of the drain when any fixture is pulled, looks like the property manager wants me to call in a contr. to look at it. Clogged individual vent from the toilet or something else...


----------



## Redwood

Redwood slides a tall stack of chips on cracked bowl leaking...
Probably cracked where it is not visible...


----------



## plumbdrum

If it's only 1 WC I'll agree with redwood , if it's all WC's is there a relief vent on the battery?

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


----------



## mrjasontgreek

Had a few gerbers that had sand holes from the factory. Two leaked down the drain and one leaked down through the ceiling below. All were made around the same time


----------



## stecar

Wait till NH sees this, he will tell you his thoughts on a toilet being vented.


----------



## plumbdrum

stecar said:


> Wait till NH sees this, he will tell you his thoughts on a toilet being vented.


Not that topic again.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


----------



## plumbdrum

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


----------



## BC73RS

plumbdrum said:


> View attachment 31767
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Damn inspectors they always throw the book in your face
Not to worry you won't catch me...:jester:


----------



## ChrisConnor

Swap toilets around see if problem sticks with particular bowl.


----------



## tim666

I would think if this was a venting issue it would happen in a shorter time than 2 days


----------



## dclarke

I'd run an auger through it. I've seen them siphon from being partially clogged. Siphons way faster than your saying so it does sound much more like a cracked bowl. An auger isn't going to hurt anything tho.


----------



## nhmaster3015

If you guys haven't figured venting out by now, you never will :laughing:

Hairline crack or a bit of something hanging over the weir, wicking the water away. If it were a vent problem the other toilets in the battery would be showing varying water levels or have the same problem.


----------



## plumbdrum

I CLEARLY understand venting

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


----------



## wyrickmech

Extremely negative air is the key. It is slowly pushing the water over the trap weir then loosing the seal. This is not as much of a plumbing problem as it is a HVAC problem.


----------



## nhmaster3015

wyrickmech said:


> Extremely negative air is the key. It is slowly pushing the water over the trap weir then loosing the seal. This is not as much of a plumbing problem as it is a HVAC problem.


Its a battery of 3 so all 3 should show about the same amount of water loss if that was happening.


----------



## justme

a toilet bowl is pretty cheap,before we start with the blocked vent and negative air pressure.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Yep and again, if it was the vent it should effect all three toilets


----------



## wyrickmech

nhmaster3015 said:


> Its a battery of 3 so all 3 should show about the same amount of water loss if that was happening.


ya I see that now. I would say smack it with a hammer and replace.lol


----------



## plumbdrum

wyrickmech said:


> ya I see that now. I would say smack it with a hammer and replace.lol


Agreed

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


----------



## sparky

nhmaster3015 said:


> Yep and again, if it was the vent it should effect all three toilets


Not necessarily,it could be that one toilets riser is blocked and the other two are not,most likely not but just sayin for shiots and giggles???


----------



## Redwood

sparky said:


> Not necessarily,it could be that one toilets riser is blocked and the other two are not,most likely not but just sayin for shiots and giggles???


Please do tell me how the blockage of a single vent would cause water loss....:whistling2:

Remember now this is a 3 gang and is not back to back make adjustments in your head for the picture...


----------



## plumbdrum

Redwood said:


> Please do tell me how the blockage of a single vent would cause water loss....:whistling2: Remember now this is a 3 gang and is not back to back make adjustments in your head for the picture...


They don't have vents in Kentucky. Lol. PS the middle vent is not needed.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


----------



## sparky

Redwood said:


> Please do tell me how the blockage of a single vent would cause water loss....:whistling2:
> 
> Remember now this is a 3 gang and is not back to back make adjustments in your head for the picture...


If the one riser is blocked up its possible when the other toilets are flushed that it sucks the water out of the bowl


E


----------



## sparky

plumbdrum said:


> They don't have vents in Kentucky. Lol. PS the middle vent is not needed.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


You crazy man


----------



## Redwood

Redwood said:


> *Please do tell me how the blockage of a single vent would cause water loss*....:whistling2:
> 
> Remember now this is a 3 gang and is not back to back make adjustments in your head for the picture...





sparky said:


> If the one riser is blocked up its possible when the other toilets are flushed that it sucks the water out of the bowl
> 
> 
> E


Please do tell how.... Show Me! Like I'm From Missouri....


----------



## mtfallsmikey

It is a back-to-back setup with the ladie's bath right behind. I'll probably replace the bowl first, see what happens, although my property manager wants to try to have someone come in with a camera to see if there is a problem.... I have not had a pluming contractor here in the 8 1/2 yrs. I've been here, would be an insult to my dad and granddad.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Redwood said:


> Please do tell how.... Show Me! Like I'm From Missouri....


Can't show what ain't possible :laughing:


----------



## luv2plum

Is the toilet that is losing water the most downstream one of the battery of 3?


----------



## sparky

nhmaster3015 said:


> Can't show what ain't possible :laughing:



Only not possible in your mind,just when you think you know it all then you learn you don't know everything you think you did


----------



## sparky

Redwood said:


> Please do tell how.... Show Me! Like I'm From Missouri....


If that one toilet vent was plugged and the other toilets were flushed its possible that it could create a vaccum(you know,a negative pressure)and pull the water out of the bowl.now before you vent geniuses go ape doodling I'm just saying it coulddddd happen,is it probable,most likely not


----------



## sparky

Redwood said:


> Please do tell me how the blockage of a single vent would cause water loss....:whistling2:
> 
> Remember now this is a 3 gang and is not back to back make adjustments in your head for the picture...


See you thought it WASNT back to back and it turns out it is


----------



## beanburner

test plug is leaking , seen it before


----------



## wyrickmech

One configuration that just popped in my head was if it is a vertical carrier and the vent is plugged it may be drawing the seal down over a couple of days. That is if the vent was plugged just above the carrier.


----------



## Redwood

mtfallsmikey said:


> It is a back-to-back setup with the ladie's bath right behind. I'll probably replace the bowl first, see what happens, although my property manager wants to try to have someone come in with a camera to see if there is a problem.... I have not had a pluming contractor here in the 8 1/2 yrs. I've been here, would be an insult to my dad and granddad.





sparky said:


> See you thought it WASNT back to back and it turns out it is


Right! So with more complete information.... Finally...

Is the opposite toilet in the ladies room drawing down...:whistling2:

Didn't think so.... :laughing:


----------



## sparky

wyrickmech said:


> One configuration that just popped in my head was if it is a vertical carrier and the vent is plugged it may be drawing the seal down over a couple of days. That is if the vent was plugged just above the carrier.



Thank you,could it happen, of course,is it likely??most likely not


----------



## sparky

Redwood said:


> Right! So with more complete information.... Finally...
> 
> Is the opposite toilet in the ladies room drawing down...:whistling2:
> 
> Didn't think so.... :laughing:


Because the negative pressure is pulling one way most likely,goin with the path of least resistance


----------



## Redwood

sparky said:


> Because the negative pressure is pulling one way most likely,goin with the path of least resistance


In which case the opposite toilet would have equal resistance....:laughing:
Still it's not a vent problem...
Someday you might figure it out....


----------



## mtfallsmikey

3 toilets on the men's side, 5 in the ladies, none of the toilets on the ladie's side is drawing down. Boss says get a contr. in to look at it before I replace the bowl, because I had indicated that it may be a vent problem... oh well, ain't my money.


----------



## mtfallsmikey

Redwood said:


> Please do tell me how the blockage of a single vent would cause water loss....:whistling2:
> 
> Remember now this is a 3 gang and is not back to back make adjustments in your head for the picture...


It would be the toilet on the right hand side looking at the drawing


----------



## sparky

Redwood said:


> In which case the opposite toilet would have equal resistance....:laughing:
> Still it's not a vent problem...
> Someday you might figure it out....


Yes it could be even if back to back,the water could syphon out of one bowl and only move and jump in the other bowl.yes it is possible that it is a vent problem as I have seen water and negative pressure do some crazy stuff,now I know you will not agree with me even if it was smacking you in the face but that's alright there are others that know what I'm talkin bout.


----------



## budders

Lol all this speculation and going back and forth I'm hopeing u post what the issue is once finally found


----------



## mpot

I think the simplest, easiest theory has already been mentioned. Something wicking the trap. Has the toilet been pulled? 
I like to push my auger through, attach a rag and pull back through. Gets anything the auger passes by.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


----------



## Redwood

sparky said:


> Yes it could be even if back to back,the water could syphon out of one bowl and only move and jump in the other bowl.yes it is possible that it is a vent problem as I have seen water and negative pressure do some crazy stuff,now I know you will not agree with me even if it was smacking you in the face but that's alright there are others that know what I'm talkin bout.


Yea... It's possible I might hit the Mega Millions Lottery Jackpot too...
Despite the fact I've never bought a ticket and probably won't either...
But, You never know.....:laughing:

In fact I'm more likely to hit the Mega Millions than your vent problem possibly drawing down that toilet...:yes:

Do you see the redundancy in the venting that would be provided in the center and left toilet even if venting "Could" be the problem for the right toilet, which it isn't.... :whistling2:

Your right... I'm not going to agree with it ever, because you don't know what you are talking about. :yes:

It is either something in the trapway wicking the water out over the top of the trap or, the toilet has a crack or, hole allowing the water to bypass the trap and go down the drain... <---Better than even odds... Much better!

I've gone "All In."


----------



## nhmaster3015

Sometimes I think maybe our profession does no longer deserve the lofty heights achieved by plumbers of the past. Plumbers that were highly paid, highly respected and highly valued. We brought this plight upon ourselves. All bow to the mighty god of fast, cheap and easy. Can I get an amen brother :thumbsup:


----------



## Redwood

*Amen!*


----------



## dclarke

Amen


----------



## sparky

Redwood said:


> Yea... It's possible I might hit the Mega Millions Lottery Jackpot too...
> Despite the fact I've never bought a ticket and probably won't either...
> But, You never know.....:laughing:
> 
> In fact I'm more likely to hit the Mega Millions than your vent problem possibly drawing down that toilet...:yes:
> 
> Do you see the redundancy in the venting that would be provided in the center and left toilet even if venting "Could" be the problem for the right toilet, which it isn't.... :whistling2:
> 
> Your right... I'm not going to agree with it ever, because you don't know what you are talking about. :yes:
> 
> It is either something in the trapway wicking the water out over the top of the trap or, the toilet has a crack or, hole allowing the water to bypass the trap and go down the drain... <---Better than even odds... Much better!
> 
> I've gone "All In."


Whatever dude you know it all


----------



## Redwood

sparky said:


> Whatever dude you know it all


No I don't know it all...

But I haven't stopped learning either...:thumbup:


----------



## sparky

Redwood said:


> Yea...
> :whistling2:
> 
> Your right... I'm not going to agree with it ever, because you don't know what you are talking about.
> 
> ."


I can say the same thing for you as well


----------



## Redwood

sparky said:


> I can say the same thing for you as well


And there is where you start walking in circles mumbling to yourself incoherently....:laughing:


----------



## mtfallsmikey

This reminds me of some of the theoretical conversations I had with Dad about plumbing theory... and I never stop learning either. Don't worry, fellas, I will post the results... Hopefully the contractor, who is well known here in the D.C./Metro area will be coming tomorrow or Friday morning, I requested that they send no greenhorn, supposedly bringing available cameras, etc. 

Life was so much simpler when we used S/drum traps.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Redwood said:


> No I don't know it all...
> 
> But I haven't stopped learning either...:thumbup:


I do actually know it all :laughing:


----------



## sparky

Redwood said:


> And there is where you start walking in circles mumbling to yourself incoherently....:laughing:


Same as you hoss


----------



## sparky

Redwood;463986
It is either something in the trapway wicking the water out over the top of the trap or said:


> Bet a thousand bucks it ain't something wicking the water out of the bowl and if it was a crack in the bowl it would have done it from day one and NEVER held a test on a final


----------



## mtfallsmikey

All secrets will be revealed Friday morning... story, and (hopefully) pics too.


----------



## sparky

mtfallsmikey said:


> All secrets will be revealed Friday morning... story, and (hopefully) pics too.


Can you get us all free airplane tickets so we can come watch and verify the baffling disappearing water caper????lololol


----------



## mtfallsmikey

sparky said:


> Can you get us all free airplane tickets so we can come watch and verify the baffling disappearing water caper????lololol


No free tickets, but if anyone wants to witness this, PM me, and I will give you the location/directions, I will say that I am very close to a major airport tho...:blink:


----------



## Drainprodm

ChrisConnor said:


> Swap toilets around see if problem sticks with particular bowl.


I agree this would tell you alot


----------



## Redwood

mtfallsmikey said:


> No free tickets, but if anyone wants to witness this, PM me, and I will give you the location/directions, I will say that I am very close to a major airport tho...:blink:


No need...
The well known concept of venting and drainage which has been well understood for well over a hundred years will once again be proven...

We should probably take up a collection for one of our members but he probably wouldn't know what he is witnessing anyway...:laughing:

_"The water standing between the levels A and B is called the seal of the trap. This seal may be broken or destroyed in a variety of ways. It may be destroyed by siphonage, by capillary attraction, by evaporation, by back pressure, by momentum, and by gusts of wind. Its destruction by siphonage is a matter of such importance that the following chapter will be reserved for its consideration. Defined, *capillary attraction is the power possessed by liquids of rising through very fine tubes to a higher level than that of the liquid in which the tubes dip. It is this action which causes a sponge to fill with water. Its application to the breaking of the trap seal may be seen in Fig. 33, which represents string or a collection of lint or other like substances dipping down into the seal of the trap and terminating in the outlet. Capillary action will cause the water in the trap to follow up through this collection of lint and drop over into the outlet. This constitutes a serious danger to the trap seal, and one for which there would seem to be no remedy. It may readily be seen that in the case of a fixture seldom used, whose trap seal therefore is seldom renewed, capillary action by withdrawing the water from the seal a drop at a time, may eventually destroy it entirely, and the length of time in which such a result might be reached is surprisingly short.*

It is a fact that after being in use for a length of time, a large majority of vents connected as in Fig. 41 become almost, if not entirely closed with grease, lint, etc., and in that condition of course become inoperative. Many expedients have been tried in the manufacture of traps to overcome this difficulty, but with little apparent success. Some few plumbing ordinances call for the location of a cleanout on each trap vent, but this is by no means a solution of the difficulty, for *the seat of the trouble is always hidden from view, and that a stoppage of the vent exists is almost never known.* In addition, the average owner or tenant knows so little concerning these matters that he cannot be depended upon to clear the vent at proper intervals, and in most cases not at all. The knowledge of the great extent of this evil is one of the chief reasons for the great activity in the search for a nonsiphonable trap, such a device naturally not requiring the vent, and therefore being free from this trouble.

Certain cities have even gone so far as to adopt the nonsiphon-able traps now on the market, allowing their installation without venting, preferring to take chances with the so-called nonsiphon-able trap rather than with the ordinary trap and its attendant closed vent. There is a form of venting known as continuous venting, or venting, in the rough, which may be said to be free from the stoppage evil, and the subject is of such importance that the following chapter will be devoted to its consideration. *A stoppage of the trap vent is to be considered more dangerous than a stoppage of the waste, as the latter quickly makes itself known by the setting back of the waste into the fixture, while the former is seldom known unless the work is taken apart.*

*The water-closet is naturally the fixture most difficult to siphon, inasmuch as it is more difficult to form a vacuum in a 4-inch pipe than in pipes of smaller diameter.*"_

Standard Practical Plumbing Author: R. M. Starbuck 1910


----------



## sparky

Redwood said:


> No need...
> The well known concept of venting and drainage which has been well understood for well over a hundred years will once again be proven...
> 
> We should probably take up a collection for one of our members but he probably wouldn't know what he is witnessing anyway...:laughing:
> 
> _"The water standing between the levels A and B is called the seal of the trap. This seal may be broken or destroyed in a variety of ways. It may be destroyed by siphonage, by capillary attraction, by evaporation, by back pressure, by momentum, and by gusts of wind. Its destruction by siphonage is a matter of such importance that the following chapter will be reserved for its consideration. Defined, *capillary attraction is the power possessed by liquids of rising through very fine tubes to a higher level than that of the liquid in which the tubes dip. It is this action which causes a sponge to fill with water. Its application to the breaking of the trap seal may be seen in Fig. 33, which represents string or a collection of lint or other like substances dipping down into the seal of the trap and terminating in the outlet. Capillary action will cause the water in the trap to follow up through this collection of lint and drop over into the outlet. This constitutes a serious danger to the trap seal, and one for which there would seem to be no remedy. It may readily be seen that in the case of a fixture seldom used, whose trap seal therefore is seldom renewed, capillary action by withdrawing the water from the seal a drop at a time, may eventually destroy it entirely, and the length of time in which such a result might be reached is surprisingly short.*
> 
> It is a fact that after being in use for a length of time, a large majority of vents connected as in Fig. 41 become almost, if not entirely closed with grease, lint, etc., and in that condition of course become inoperative. Many expedients have been tried in the manufacture of traps to overcome this difficulty, but with little apparent success. Some few plumbing ordinances call for the location of a cleanout on each trap vent, but this is by no means a solution of the difficulty, for *the seat of the trouble is always hidden from view, and that a stoppage of the vent exists is almost never known.* In addition, the average owner or tenant knows so little concerning these matters that he cannot be depended upon to clear the vent at proper intervals, and in most cases not at all. The knowledge of the great extent of this evil is one of the chief reasons for the great activity in the search for a nonsiphonable trap, such a device naturally not requiring the vent, and therefore being free from this trouble.
> 
> Certain cities have even gone so far as to adopt the nonsiphon-able traps now on the market, allowing their installation without venting, preferring to take chances with the so-called nonsiphon-able trap rather than with the ordinary trap and its attendant closed vent. There is a form of venting known as continuous venting, or venting, in the rough, which may be said to be free from the stoppage evil, and the subject is of such importance that the following chapter will be devoted to its consideration. *A stoppage of the trap vent is to be considered more dangerous than a stoppage of the waste, as the latter quickly makes itself known by the setting back of the waste into the fixture, while the former is seldom known unless the work is taken apart.*
> 
> *The water-closet is naturally the fixture most difficult to siphon, inasmuch as it is more difficult to form a vacuum in a 4-inch pipe than in pipes of smaller diameter.*"_
> 
> Standard Practical Plumbing Author: R. M. Starbuck 1910


This is just crazy,can we say back tracking??first it was wickin the water or a crack in the bowl,now it's a multiple paragraph on things it can be


----------



## Redwood

sparky said:


> This is just crazy,can we say back tracking??first it was wickin the water or a crack in the bowl,now it's a multiple paragraph on things it can be


Yea... And it basically sez over 100 years ago that plumbers knew that venting issues were very unlikely to pull water from a toilet...:laughing:

See the bold...

Take another pull on that glass pipe...:blink:


----------



## sparky

Redwood said:


> Take another pull on that glass pipe...:blink:


I can hit the glass pipe all day long and still have more sense than you


----------



## sparky

wyrickmech said:


> One configuration that just popped in my head was if it is a vertical carrier and the vent is plugged it may be drawing the seal down over a couple of days. That is if the vent was plugged just above the carrier.


This man knows what I'm talkin about,him and several others on here,they have been out in the real world and know what they are talkin about!!


----------



## tim666

This is fun, quite a heated debate in what it is or isn't, for not actually being there. "Most difficult to siphon" definitely when you are piped with a basin and a tub, when dealing with 3 or 4 more toilets upstream and 4 more storeys above it becomes a lot more plausible. I wouldn't put money on any of these without being there. All good theories, but I'm betting on someone's service dog drinking out if the toilet. Just kidding


----------



## mtfallsmikey

I'm printing the entire thread to show to the tech...he's on his way..


----------



## wyrickmech

mtfallsmikey said:


> I'm printing the entire thread to show to the tech...he's on his way..


let us know I'm wondering what it is.


----------



## sparky

wyrickmech said:


> let us know I'm wondering what it is.




Me to


----------



## mtfallsmikey

NEWS FLASH!!! Looks like Redwood's theory wins. The tech is a member here, should be posting soon. Cut a hole in the wall, all venting ok, just lots of negative air pressure. Water level in bowl dropped 1/2" in 15 min. We capped off the 4" vent stack on the roof, made minimal difference, dual outlet carriers used, toilet in ladie's bath directly behind it unaffected. Removed water out of 2 other bowls, negative air pressure was about the same. Affected toilet about half way down as far a vent stack goes, other fixtures are upstream/downstream.


----------



## justme

mtfallsmikey said:


> NEWS FLASH!!! Looks like Redwood's theory wins. The tech is a member here, should be posting soon. Cut a hole in the wall, all venting ok, just lots of negative air pressure. Water level in bowl dropped 1/2" in 15 min. We capped off the 4" vent stack on the roof, made minimal difference, dual outlet carriers used, toilet in ladie's bath directly behind it unaffected. Removed water out of 2 other bowls, negative air pressure was about the same. Affected toilet about half way down as far a vent stack goes, other fixtures are upstream/downstream.



Need more details , for the life of me I would never check the vent in a situation like this because it is A WASTE OF TIME to do so. So your saying its wicking the trap down through capillary action in the trap way , if so get a new bowl with a sanigloss smooth trap way. If I'm misunderstanding your post , update us with more info.


----------



## sparky

mtfallsmikey said:


> NEWS FLASH!!! Looks like Redwood's theory wins. The tech is a member here, should be posting soon. Cut a hole in the wall, all venting ok, just lots of negative air pressure. Water level in bowl dropped 1/2" in 15 min. We capped off the 4" vent stack on the roof, made minimal difference, dual outlet carriers used, toilet in ladie's bath directly behind it unaffected. Removed water out of 2 other bowls, negative air pressure was about the same. Affected toilet about half way down as far a vent stack goes, other fixtures are upstream/downstream.


Yea the way I'm reading it is if it's a negative air pressure thing then something somewhere is not venting right because a vent is used to correct the negative air pressures in piping systems,and I believe I'm the one that said it was a negative air pressure problem(vaccum) just may not be from a plugged vent at the toilet


----------



## mtfallsmikey

Well folks, there is a LOT of negative air pressure in the system. When Brian (the tech that was here today) posts, maybe he will post the video he took of the negative air sucking my lighter flame into the toilet weir (water removed of course). My boss' ideer to call in an outside plumber, my ideer was to change out the bowl first. It worked in a similar situation in my other building, toilet there was in the 6th floor ladies bath.


----------



## plumbdrum

What's making the negative air? Is VTR to close to a fresh air intake? Is there relief vent on the battery/loop

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


----------



## justme

Sounds like your AC system might need to be balanced, I don't think I would call this a negative air pressure situation . More than likely it is a positive air flow situation being caused by your AC system. Too much supply and not enough return .


----------



## sparky

mtfallsmikey said:


> Well folks, there is a LOT of negative air pressure in the system. When Brian (the tech that was here today) posts, maybe he will post the video he took of the negative air sucking my lighter flame into the toilet weir (water removed of course). My boss' ideer to call in an outside plumber, my ideer was to change out the bowl first. It worked in a similar situation in my other building, toilet there was in the 6th floor ladies bath.


So as of right now we still have a difinite maybe and are no closer to the answer than we were five days ago,maybe a combination of all things everybody listed


----------



## sparky

plumbdrum said:


> What's making the negative air? Is VTR to close to a fresh air intake? Is there relief vent on the battery/loop
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


That's a good thought there drum,most definite a possibility


----------



## justme

but either way , what's causing just the one toilet to siphon down? I still say put a new bowl on.


----------



## plumbdrum

justme said:


> but either way , what's causing just the one toilet to siphon down? I still say put a new bowl on.


Don't feel like scrolling through old posts, was it the first WC on a battery?

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


----------



## budders

Lol dam it my wife has been dealing with me bouncing ideas off her all week about this problem as well as other plumbers i know. And yet i still dont have a deffinit answer. Now how am i gonna sleep.


----------



## MDPlumber1977

So MtfallsMikey wasn't kidding when he said this topic gained a lot of interest. I am the lucky fella that got a look at this thing in all its glory. I will try and post the video in the next day or two. First I would like to say that Mikey didn't need another opinion on this and that his property manager really just wasted $$$ as in my mind he had it right from the start. Though there is negative pressure in the stack (not the building as in lack of supply air) it is not great enough to pull the trap seals on the fixtures. The piping to this battery of carriers is perfect in terms of code and venting. The Vent Stack is not near any mechanically driven air on the rooftop so at the end of the day, I would have to agree with all who recommended replacing the bowl based on a sand hole or similar issue. I am still not completely sure why the vent system is not at least close to neutral when the building is unoccupied. I don't know that municipality well but i wonder if there is a pumping station near by or something else on the city side creating the issue.


----------



## sparky

MDPlumber1977 said:


> I would have to agree with all who recommended replacing the bowl based on a sand hole or similar issue.
> 
> 
> But if it was a sand hole or a
> Crack in the trap it would have been doing it from day one and would not have held a final test,did you take the mission band off the vent where it connects to the carrier and make sure there was no blockage at all??


----------



## sparky

So we STILL have a difinite maybe as to the cause of the disappearing water


----------



## nhmaster3015

A hairline crack caused by aggressive augering.


----------



## sparky

nhmaster3015 said:


> A hairline crack caused by aggressive augering.


Possible but unlikely it most likely has a flush valve on it and those don't stop up very much


----------



## mrjasontgreek

To everyone who says that for it to be a crack or a holeit would have to have been there from day one, has nobody ever seen a fixture "develop" a crack?? Maybe a cleaner dumped a bucket of hot water down the bowl, maybe the test plug in the toilet wasn't glazed properly and gave out, if it's a consistent, slow loss of trap seal, it just seems that there is no way it can be a venting issue, even if a venting issue could just affect that one single bowl, which I really think an issue that severe would affect the bowl on the other side as well, I don't think it would be a slow, steady loss of water; it would pull the trap out in short spurts, you would be able to watch the water level fluctuate. 

It also seems to be way easier to replace the bowl, even just to eliminate the possibility that it is the cause.


----------



## mrjasontgreek

OR...

An even simpler test that doesn't require a new bowl: pull two bowls off the wall and swap them, if the problem follows the bowl, it's the bowl, if not, it's the vent. Either way you'll have a sure answer and you don't have to spend any more serious $$ trying to diagnose it


----------



## Redwood

sparky said:


> Possible but unlikely it most likely has a flush valve on it and those don't stop up very much


:laughing: Oh yea... Those never stop up....:laughing:

At least until you install them in a commercial application and the restroom banditos pay a visit...:whistling2:

I have seen a store that had every toilet in both the men's and ladies room plugged with paper towels and water flooding out of the restrooms. I've pulled tampoon applicators, hypodermic syringes, pens, and nail files out of them...

No they never plug up....


----------



## sparky

Redwood said:


> :laughing: Oh yea... Those never stop up....:laughing:
> 
> At least until you install them in a commercial application and the restroom banditos pay a visit...:whistling2:
> 
> I have seen a store that had every toilet in both the men's and ladies room plugged with paper towels and water flooding out of the restrooms. I've pulled tampoon applicators, hypodermic syringes, pens, and nail files out of them...
> 
> No they never plug up....


Go back and reread the original post,clearly states that this is in a 6 story blding and this group is on the second floor,in this type blding you usually don't have thugs from Connecticut going around dropping their heroine syringes in the toilets,that not gonna take place hardly ever in this type blding,maybe that happens in your neighborhood at your local gas station but I seriously doubt that is happening in this blding so I stick by my statement if it has a flush valve it is not likely to have stopped up enough to require some tech to go in their and slam a toilet auger in this particular toilet.


----------



## sparky

mrjasontgreek said:


> To everyone who says that for it to be a crack or a holeit would have to have been there from day one, has nobody ever seen a fixture "develop" a crack?? Maybe a cleaner dumped a bucket of hot water down the bowl, maybe the test plug in the toilet wasn't glazed properly and gave out, if it's a consistent, slow loss of trap seal, it just seems that there is no way it can be a venting issue, even if a venting issue could just affect that one single bowl, which I really think an issue that severe would affect the bowl on the other side as well, I don't think it would be a slow, steady loss of water; it would pull the trap out in short spurts, you would be able to watch the water level fluctuate.
> 
> It also seems to be way easier to replace the bowl, even just to eliminate the possibility that it is the cause.


This don't even begin to make sense,there is not gonna be anyone in this 6 story blding runnin around dumping boiling hot water down the toilets,ain't gonna happen,and just say they did they are gonna flush it as it was being dumped cooling the water instantly so I don't buy it,not even gonna go there about a porcelain clean out


----------



## Redwood

sparky said:


> Go back and reread the original post,clearly states that this is in a 6 story blding and this group is on the second floor,in this type blding you usually don't have thugs from Connecticut going around dropping their heroine syringes in the toilets,that not gonna take place hardly ever in this type blding,maybe that happens in your neighborhood at your local gas station but I seriously doubt that is happening in this blding so I stick by my statement if it has a flush valve it is not likely to have stopped up enough to require some tech to go in their and slam a toilet auger in this particular toilet.


Whatever you say TM...:laughing:


----------



## sparky

Redwood said:


> Whatever you say TM...:laughing:






Lololololololololol


----------



## sparky

Redwood said:


> Whatever you say TM...:laughing:


Lolololololololololol


----------



## Gruvplumbing

justme said:


> Sounds like your AC system might need to be balanced, I don't think I would call this a negative air pressure situation . More than likely it is a positive air flow situation being caused by your AC system. Too much supply and not enough return .


Has this been ruled out as a possible cause? Bc it is very easy to have your whole building pressures screwed up by the central air systems.


----------



## sparky

Gruvplumbing said:


> Has this been ruled out as a possible cause? Bc it is very easy to have your whole building pressures screwed up by the central air systems.


As of last count we were at a definite maybe on all options that have been suggested,so no nothing has been ruled out and the technician that worked on this problem on Friday apparently drew a blank on a cause


----------



## Redwood

Gruvplumbing said:


> Has this been ruled out as a possible cause? Bc it is very easy to have your whole building pressures screwed up by the central air systems.


It isn't something that would affect just one toilet in a building...

Really common sense says do something to eliminate the single toilet being defective as a cause before wasting time on anything else...
If someone was engaging in any other form of troubleshooting on my dime I'd be pissed...


----------



## mrjasontgreek

You honestly mean to tell me that you've never come across someone who doesn't know better than to dump a bucket of hot mop water in a toilet? My experience also suggests that they would not mix it with fresh water at all. Years of doing service work for Tim hortons has proven that. Their traps are filled with pure, black, no longer 20 minute fresh coffee, and they will not follow it with cold water, no matter how much I plead with them. 

The fact is, it's easier to either prove or rule out the bowl than it is to run around cutting holes and looking for problems in the venting. The bowl is also far more likely to cause the described symptoms than a blocked vent. Steadily losing 1/2" of water every 15 minutes sounds like a leak, or capillary action, not siphonage. If he said that it was losing its seal occasionally, or losing water intermittently I would be 100% on board with you. But a steady loss of water does not lead me to think venting, at least until I've ruled out the bowl for sure


----------



## mrjasontgreek

And for the hvac system to be putting enough positive pressure on a building to push a trap seal completely out of a toilet, you would have to basically have no exhaust air at all, and your exhaust terminals would likely have to be mostly blocked to not allow the pressure to release. All doors and windows would need to be tightly closed as well. On top of all that, it would still not cause a consistent 1/2" drop over 15 minutes, the rate of water loss would fluctuate like crazy. And it would not affect JUST ONE TOILET!

That whole theory sounds about as plausible as stink bugs poking holes in rehau pex...


----------



## Gruvplumbing

I'm not saying your wrong in anyway red. But on a six story building there should be multiple central air units or what ever they might have to pull fresh air into the building. And it would be as easy as closing the damper to the fresh air vent for a few days to see what happens. I'm not saying that's the problem but if it was or could be the problem replacing the toilet won't solve the issue. It would just move to a new toilet or to something else.


----------



## wyrickmech

Gruvplumbing said:


> I'm not saying your wrong in anyway red. But on a six story building there should be multiple central air units or what ever they might have to pull fresh air into the building. And it would be as easy as closing the damper to the fresh air vent for a few days to see what happens. I'm not saying that's the problem but if it was or could be the problem replacing the toilet won't solve the issue. It would just move to a new toilet or to something else.


 if the negative air was the problem it would be effecting all stools in the bathroom.


----------



## Redwood

mrjasontgreek said:


> And for the hvac system to be putting enough positive pressure on a building to push a trap seal completely out of a toilet, you would have to basically have no exhaust air at all, and your exhaust terminals would likely have to be mostly blocked to not allow the pressure to release. All doors and windows would need to be tightly closed as well. On top of all that, it would still not cause a consistent 1/2" drop over 15 minutes, the rate of water loss would fluctuate like crazy. And it would not affect JUST ONE TOILET!
> 
> That whole theory sounds about as plausible as stink bugs poking holes in rehau pex...


Actually the bugs piercing PEX are a lot more plausible... :laughing:


----------



## mrjasontgreek

I'm not going to hijack the thread with the pex thing, I've got too much to say on that lol. I'm just saying, take the affected bowl and swap it with one of the other ones, if the problem follows the bowl, which I suspect it will, replace it, if the other bowl starts losing water, then you know the problem is in the piping. Either way you'll have an answer and you'll know what to do next. It's simple, it'll tell you once and for all where the problem is, and all it costs is the price of two wax seals


----------



## justme

So was the bowl changed like what was suggested back at the beginning of this thread or are we still kicking the dead horse lol


----------



## Redwood

justme said:


> So was the bowl changed like what was suggested back at the beginning of this thread or are we still kicking the dead horse lol


What do you think?


----------



## sparky

Redwood said:


> What do you think?


looks like California chrome after he was pulled over the finish line at the Belmont yesterday


----------



## mtfallsmikey

No, the bowl has not been changed yet, no I do not think the supply air/toilet exhaust is the problem...working nights this week, no solution in store until next week, be calm, plunge on.


----------



## budders

mtfallsmikey said:


> No, the bowl has not been changed yet, no I do not think the supply air/toilet exhaust is the problem...working nights this week, no solution in store until next week, be calm, plunge on.


 dam it man. Im loseing sleep over this. Or its the new born. Lol. Keep us updated. I have a lot of plumbers and my wife waiting for an answer as well


----------



## wyrickmech

Just hit it with a hammer and say whoops ,and be done with it already!


----------



## mtfallsmikey

Sorry for the delay fellas, was on vacay for a few days, and busy as chit...
Changed out the bowl with an adjoing one, suspect bowl did the same thing, bad toilet...that's my final answer


----------



## budders

mtfallsmikey said:


> Sorry for the delay fellas, was on vacay for a few days, and busy as chit... Changed out the bowl with an adjoing one, suspect bowl did the same thing, bad toilet...that's my final answer


 thvm


----------



## mrjasontgreek

I can finally sleep after all the suspense!


----------



## mrjasontgreek

So... Now that we know WHAT the problem is, let's see if we can determine WHY it's losing its seal. Crack? Capillary action? Hole? Maybe the water got stolen by Luke Perry?


----------



## budders

mrjasontgreek said:


> So... Now that we know WHAT the problem is, let's see if we can determine WHY it's losing its seal. Crack? Capillary action? Hole? Maybe the water got stolen by Luke Perry?


 dam you luke perry


----------



## Redwood

mtfallsmikey said:


> Sorry for the delay fellas, was on vacay for a few days, and busy as chit...
> Changed out the bowl with an adjoing one, suspect bowl did the same thing, bad toilet...that's my final answer


No Kidding.... :laughing:
Rakes in the pile of chips and sez.... Thanks For Playing Boys....

We'll do this again sometime....:thumbup:


----------



## sparky

Redwood said:


> No Kidding.... :laughing:
> Rakes in the pile of chips and sez.... Thanks For Playing Boys....
> 
> We'll do this again sometime....:thumbup:


Intttttt wrong again,I do believe you diagnosed cappillary attraction as the cause somebody else diagnosed it being the bowl


----------



## sparky

sparky said:


> Intttttt wrong again,I do believe you diagnosed cappillary attraction as the cause somebody else diagnosed it being the bowl





mtfallsmikey said:


> Sorry for the delay fellas, was on vacay for a few days, and busy as chit...
> Changed out the bowl with an adjoing one, suspect bowl did the same thing, bad toilet...that's my final answer


What about the very strong negative pressure that your plumber said was in this system???what is causing this????i bet this toilet has never been changed and is still sitting there or maybe I'm still lickin the dead horse


----------



## Redwood

Redwood said:


> No Kidding.... :laughing:
> Rakes in the pile of chips and sez.... Thanks For Playing Boys....
> 
> We'll do this again sometime....:thumbup:





sparky said:


> Intttttt wrong again,I do believe you diagnosed cappillary attraction as the cause somebody else diagnosed it being the bowl


Sparky, Why don't you just learn to plumb...
Or tell your customers to hire someone who can...:laughing:

Apparently you can't read either...:laughing:

In every post I made in this thread I steadfastly said it was a toilet problem and not a vent problem...
I stated cracked bowl, or other defect, wicking over the trapway were possible causes....

While you said, its a vent problem, incoherent mumbling, its a vent problem, incoherent mumbling, its a vent problem, incoherent mumbling, its a vent problem, incoherent mumbling, its a vent problem, incoherent mumbling, its a vent problem, incoherent mumbling, its a vent problem, incoherent mumbling....:thumbup::laughing::yes:

Thanks for your sucker bet and we'll play again someday...:whistling2:


----------



## Redwood

sparky said:


> What about the very strong negative pressure that your plumber said was in this system???what is causing this????i bet this toilet has never been changed and is still sitting there or maybe I'm still lickin the dead horse


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## wyrickmech

Redwood said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: Video Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcjzHMhBtf0


 lol you have either had too much coffee or you really slept good last night because you are full of energy this morning lol


----------



## Redwood

wyrickmech said:


> lol you have either had too much coffee or you really slept good last night because you are full of energy this morning lol


I had just gotten in from fishing our 1st night tournament of the season...
I was right about that too... 
Took 1st and the Lunker Pool...
So I was a bit wired... :thumbup:


----------



## Plumb Bob

Redwood said:


> I had just gotten in from fishing our 1st night tournament of the season... I was right about that too... Took 1st and the Lunker Pool... So I was a bit wired... :thumbup:


Where are the pics?


----------



## Redwood

Plumb Bob said:


> Where are the pics?


:laughing::laughing::laughing:

I didn't take any...
The lunker wasn't close to being a trophy fish but it was big enough to take the money...
A 5 or 6 pound fish is not worthy of posing...
I wish we had fish like the bass you guys see in Cali...

Hell I don't even bother to hang up my trophies any more...
I just pile them in the corner and let them collect dust....

I get excited about taking the money though... :laughing::thumbup:


----------



## mtfallsmikey

You boys just love to sass each other...
If I have time and inclination, I may make a "carrier" out of Kendorf, hang the bowl on it, fill trap with water, see if it seeps out.


----------



## justme

lol who would have thought changing the bowl would have fixed the problem after throwing no telling how much money at it with service calls .


----------



## mtfallsmikey

justme said:


> lol who would have thought changing the bowl would have fixed the problem after throwing no telling how much money at it with service calls .


 
I had another one like that, but siphonage was not as severe in this one, in my other building, replaced it, problem solved. I wanted to replace/swap this bowl out in the beginning, but was shot down by higher-ups, kinda stings when people doubted me, even with 40+ yrs. in this trade, but... you can lead a horse to water, can't make it drink.


----------



## Flyout95

rodeorooter said:


> Most traps are served by fixtures that are in frequent use such as kitchen faucets or shower heads. Traps that are not used frequently (floor drains) are required to have a means of maintaining the prime. This is where the trap seal primer comes into play.


Thanks for that....


----------



## plumbdrum

rodeorooter said:


> Most traps are served by fixtures that are in frequent use such as kitchen faucets or shower heads. Traps that are not used frequently (floor drains) are required to have a means of maintaining the prime. This is where the trap seal primer comes into play.


Wow, I'm so glad your here to educate us, we had numerous pages of guesses on this topic until you came around,.Finally someone with the answers .

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


----------



## plumbdrum

rodeorooter said:


> Most traps are served by fixtures that are in frequent use such as kitchen faucets or shower heads. Traps that are not used frequently (floor drains) are required to have a means of maintaining the prime. This is where the trap seal primer comes into play.


I'm also sure you will lose your seal around here with no proper introduction.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


----------



## mtfallsmikey

Due to factors beyond my control, I could not send the short vid I took of the bowl mounted on a hand truck, and it leaking, sent it to Redwood to post on here, I'm sure it will show up shortly.

And... thanks for the short primer on primers.. I like obtaining knowledge that I already have.


----------



## Redwood

Sorry for the delay Mikey....
Been on some long days lately...


----------



## mtfallsmikey

That's ok Redwood, understand, glad you are busy..
Now, for an introduction to my docu-drama, which I titled "Flight of the Seal"...

The black tape inside of the bowl marks the normal water level, as you can see, the bowl has an internal leak, and is dripping water out of the outlet, it would continue to drain until the water level reached the trap opening. The negative air pressure in the drain/vent stack caused this to happen fairly quickly, when the bowl was mounted about 25 min., took approx. 50 min. for the water to drain from the normal level to the trap opening while mounted on my ******* carrier (thanks to the duct tie-wraps). Redwood gets the prize. I really appreciate all of the the input, hope everyone learned something from this.


----------



## mtfallsmikey

Also, my thanks go out to the "B" man from Magnolia Plumbing for his help.


----------

