# Trac pipe?



## Plumbtastic1 (Jul 5, 2014)

Has anyone had any trouble from Tracpipe? We started using it on small gas pipe jobs. I wouldn't to a whole system but it works great on moving or adding fixtures. So far I've had no issues.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

I've used it for years every time I do gas work underneath a house or attic.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

the only issues that have come up was on the north side
of our town. there is a weather path that seems to have a lot of electrical storms through Carmel....

Lightening has struck the house or nearby the house and it would burn a hole through the tract pipe...
basically setting fire to the whole home


this has happenned a few dozen times and they have enforced better grounding codes on the gas lines....





Tract pipe is still here to stay


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> the only issues that have come up was on the north side
> of our town. there is a weather path that seems to have a lot of electrical storms through Carmel....
> 
> Lightening has struck the house or nearby the house and it would burn a hole through the tract pipe...
> ...


j

How they want it to be grounded


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Bonded, not grounded. Has to be done by a licensed electrician and the requirement is listed in the installation Manuel . You knew that though because you have been certified to install product through Tracpipe right??

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Also it's only the yellow pipe that needs to be bonded. The Black product does not need additional bonding.

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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

plumbdrum said:


> Bonded, not grounded. Has to be done by a licensed electrician and the requirement is listed in the installation Manuel . You knew that though because you have been certified to install product through Tracpipe right??
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


 
they are bonding or grounding everything here...
both the tubular ss stuff and the old style black steel stuff.... its all got to have a ground on it installed by 
the electrician to pass...

basically its not the plumbers job to do the grounding


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

It's the SharkBite of Gas Piping... :thumbup:

Cheaper, Easier, & Faster...

Go for it! It's Okay!:thumbup:


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## mytxplumber (Jul 28, 2013)

*Trac pipe ?*

We get to repair the stuff all the time. CSST has its problems and I would not have it in my house. Here we have roofers running nails through it all the time. If that is not bad enough after a storm we get lightning strikes. Then their are the regulator failures up in the attic. Another one is the homeowner that is hanging stuff on the walls and nail strike the stuff. Other calls we get are by homeowners that stepped on the stuff. Then if that is not enough there are all the brands that have been bought out or gone out of business. Now Home Depot and Lowes are selling there own brand of ****. The only thing I have good to say about the product it sure makes a lot of repair work for us. I hope one day there is a recall and there will be more work. Again I would not have it in my home 2psi coming in and a good lightning strike and you might not make it out.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

mytxplumber said:


> We get to repair the stuff all the time. CSST has its problems and I would not have it in my house. Here we have roofers running nails through it all the time. If that is not bad enough after a storm we get lightning strikes. Then their are the regulator failures up in the attic. Another one is the homeowner that is hanging stuff on the walls and nail strike the stuff. Other calls we get are by homeowners that stepped on the stuff. Then if that is not enough there are all the brands that have been bought out or gone out of business. Now Home Depot and Lowes are selling there own brand of ****. The only thing I have good to say about the product it sure makes a lot of repair work for us. I hope one day there is a recall and there will be more work. Again I would not have it in my home 2psi coming in and a good lightning strike and you might not make it out.


The same problems can be said for Pex and ABS pipe. All the problems you're describing are installation errors and loose regulations on who gets to buy the stuff. There are lots of other brands but I only install trac pipe exclusively. Same with Pex, I only install Uponor. 
Times and installation methods will change and you have to adapt to it or become a dinosaur.


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## mytxplumber (Jul 28, 2013)

*Trac pipe*

I am certified for the 3 major brands that are left and have been for years. The biggest problem with the CSST systems is lightning strikes. I have seen it fail when it struck the house cross the street. It does pinhole that is why it has been on the news so much lately. Would you want your home to have the stuff in it when you know you are in a area where lightning and thunder storms are common. There are lawsuits in every state because of this. It is pretty bad when inspectors tell you they could not sleep at night if it was in their homes. I have fixed a lot of lightning strikes that were just leaks. We had one hear in the Dallas area less than a year ago not all the people made it out...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

sierra2000 said:


> The same problems can be said for Pex and ABS pipe...


With one small difference....no body has died because of a water pex or sharkbitten failure.

My desire to move forward with technology has limit. That limit is gas pex. In this case, I am happy to be a Plumbasaurus. 

If I zero lightning could be guaranteed, I might consider gas pex.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Being struck by lightning is rare and it's got to be the same for it striking that gas pipe.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

sierra2000 said:


> Being struck by lightning is rare and it's got to be the same for it striking that gas pipe.


A strike within 1/2 mile can blow out csst.


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

I haven't seen any pin holing yet, but I have been to shops with flex supplies on tube and unit heaters that have fatigued. Minor issues and codes changed. Give it a few years and we'll be changing tubing systems to 2.0 on retros. Another customer burn, I don't mind the work.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

My years of installing it and this is proof enough for me.

http://www.csstfacts.org/CSST-Legal-Response.pdf

http://www.csstfacts.org/FGP-624 CSST Legal Update MD Judgement-v2.pdf

http://www.csstfacts.org/Omega_Flex_Wins_Jury_Trial.pdf

http://www.csstfacts.org/2NDWIN.pdf

http://www.csstfacts.org/Press Release Hall Case -- FINAL.pdf


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I use counterstrike or whatever its called ...with the black sleeving.....had a lightening pinhole from a can light arcing 2 blocks from here...they were fortunate to catch it ...it was a new house. It can be useful but for me its a little harder to make sure it doesn't leak than iron pipe...but double check and test thoroughly and its not bad....

when I do a restaurant I run 2lb 3/4" to the ansul valve and then hard pipe behind the grill, ovens or fryers and regulate it.....I don't think anyone is really thrilled with the product but I don't have a threading machine.


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## mytxplumber (Jul 28, 2013)

*Trac pipe*

Here is one we pulled out about a month ago we see this a lot. I will look to see if I have some more laying around. We usually leave this with the customer for insurance.


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## rockstar (Jul 24, 2014)

Just finished up a 400 foot tracpipe job last week. We use the "counterstrike" with the black jacket. It does not require bonding as It is supposedly resistant to lightining strikes. I have used it for both natural gas and lp systems and have had no issues yet. Only csst we use


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## Gruvplumbing (Dec 26, 2013)

I have never seen it burn a hole in the pipe like that. Does it burn the jacket also? And is it easy to find when it does it? Also is it where the trac pipe is in contact with another piece of metal? Like I said I have never seen it before. Just curious.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

mytxplumber said:


> We get to repair the stuff all the time. CSST has its problems and I would not have it in my house. Here we have roofers running nails through it all the time. If that is not bad enough after a storm we get lightning strikes. Then their are the regulator failures up in the attic. Another one is the homeowner that is hanging stuff on the walls and nail strike the stuff. Other calls we get are by homeowners that stepped on the stuff. Then if that is not enough there are all the brands that have been bought out or gone out of business. Now Home Depot and Lowes are selling there own brand of ****. The only thing I have good to say about the product it sure makes a lot of repair work for us. I hope one day there is a recall and there will be more work. Again I would not have it in my home 2psi coming in and a good lightning strike and you might not make it out.












There was a lighting strike in your state of Texas some years back that hit a multi-family home that had CSST installed in the attic. It perforated the CSST and essentially created a blow torch in the attic that burned the whole place down. I have the literature here somewhere about the whole catastophe.

Then manufacturers came out with their 'lightining strike' CSST which is supposed to dissipate the energy in the event of a lighting stike. But I would not install that stuff in my family's house. It galvanized above ground for me. But then again I only do service and some re-models thrown in. I can see how the new construction companies would have no choice but to spec CSST on a whole bunch of new constuction jobs in order to even hope to be competetive.


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## Plumbtastic1 (Jul 5, 2014)

sierra2000 said:


> The same problems can be said for Pex and ABS pipe. All the problems you're describing are installation errors and loose regulations on who gets to buy the stuff. There are lots of other brands but I only install trac pipe exclusively. Same with Pex, I only install Uponor.
> Times and installation methods will change and you have to adapt to it or become a dinosaur.


Amen Sierra 2000! We gotta keep it moving. Get with the times or get left behind. I agree with all the comments about it being cheaper easier .... I would prefer the good old threaded steel pipe. Nobody wants to spend the $. 

Trac pipe is all we use also. I am also a big fan of Uponor however not many supply houses here stock the stuff so it makes it hard to get fittings without ordering ahead of time. Sucks if your a fitting short.


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## Plumbtastic1 (Jul 5, 2014)

Thanks for the feedback guys. I have not heard of any lightning strike issues here in the south. I do know the new stuff doesn't require the bonding or grounding. It is very sweet of you are adding a gas line for a grill or a new stove etc. it is just such a pain to drag all the threading equip for 10-20ft of piping. That being said I here there is a pressing system that works with steel gas pipe. Ridgid makes one I know for sure. I haven't seen it or used it, but that would be a great alternative.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

i dont install flex gas. i grab my threader and smile. it looks good. spaghetti noodle gas pipe is not for me. i guess i am old school on some things. i wont hook up a dryer or gas stove either with an appliance connector. the appliance guy can do it and insure it. if the h.o. pulls it out multiple times to clean under it and it leaks, thats on me. same with garden hoses on wash machines. not hooked up by me. you can hook up your hose on your outside faucet, then you can connect your washing machine too. dont need the callbacks or insurance claim.:no:


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> i dont install flex gas. i grab my threader and smile. it looks good. spaghetti noodle gas pipe is not for me. i guess i am old school on some things. i wont hook up a dryer or gas stove either with an appliance connector. the appliance guy can do it and insure it. if the h.o. pulls it out multiple times to clean under it and it leaks, thats on me. same with garden hoses on wash machines. not hooked up by me. you can hook up your hose on your outside faucet, then you can connect your washing machine too. dont need the callbacks or insurance claim.:no:


You won't connect gas flex, washing machine hoses and faucet flex?


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> i dont install flex gas. i grab my threader and smile. it looks good. spaghetti noodle gas pipe is not for me. i guess i am old school on some things. i wont hook up a dryer or gas stove either with an appliance connector. the appliance guy can do it and insure it. if the h.o. pulls it out multiple times to clean under it and it leaks, thats on me. same with garden hoses on wash machines. not hooked up by me. you can hook up your hose on your outside faucet, then you can connect your washing machine too. dont need the callbacks or insurance claim.:no:


What are you using for stoves and dryers?


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## mytxplumber (Jul 28, 2013)

Plumbtastic1 said:


> Thanks for the feedback guys. I have not heard of any lightning strike issues here in the south. I do know the new stuff doesn't require the bonding or grounding. It is very sweet of you are adding a gas line for a grill or a new stove etc. it is just such a pain to drag all the threading equip for 10-20ft of piping. That being said I here there is a pressing system that works with steel gas pipe. Ridgid makes one I know for sure. I haven't seen it or used it, but that would be a great alternative.


CSST as been around sense the 90's here in the US and I have been certified on the stuff sense then too. Counterstrike and others have been around for a long time to. The press fitting you are talking about are megapress fittings and I have (2) jaw sets. As for getting left behind we run about 200 - 250 gas jobs per year. I keep one van set up just for running gas. If you are running CSST keep it away from anything metal it is a ground source this is where I find lightning blowing holes in the pipe. Where I live in Frisco TX the restrictions are so high on how you can install CSST most plumber hard pipe gas systems. Every other city around me is not so strict. All I am saying is be careful the Black jackets are not full proof either. Like I said to before we fix a lot of the stuff and don't believe everything your reps tell you or there propaganda. There job is to sell CSST.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

http://www.texasinspector.com/files/CSST-DANGERS.pdf


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I do not do new construction so I am not in the habit of running around like a chicken counting how many seconds it takes to do installs.

That said...

I have yet to find an instance that justifies the material cost and risk to losing lives that gas pex brings to the table.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

In Edmond, Oklahoma a fire occurred in a two story house under construction, plumbed with approximately 95% black pipe with a value in excess of $1,000,000. Two runs of CSST, each serving a metal chimney, comprised the CSST piping in the house. A perforation with its major axis measuring approximately 200 mils was found in the CSST; this is shown in Figure 3. A positive lightning report was obtained, showing 11 strikes within 0.5 mile. Figure 4 shows the failed CSST run to the fireplace.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Cedar Hill, Texas
The fire occurred within the attic space of a home, which included several runs of CSST. The CSST runs went to a fireplace, furnace, range, and water heater. During a lightning storm, the CSST run serving the fireplace leaked and the resultant fire then destroyed a section of the attic. A perforation measuring 95 mils along its major diameter was found in the pipe. A lightning report showed that there were approximately 5 strikes within 0.3 mile of the house. The fire was contained within the attic, but subjected the house to extensive smoke damage. Figure 5 shows the burned section of the attic as a result of the fire that occurred during the lightning storm. Figure 6 shows a view of the arc site of this same failed CSST when viewed under a Scanning Electron Microscope (SEM).


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Note that in neither of the examples given were the homes directly hit by lightning.

There was a point in time when plumbers that loved Orangeburg had to wave goodbye. There was a point in time when the Poly-B lovers had to set it aside.

That point in time for me has already come and gone for CrapSST.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I've had problems with being able to get trapped sand and other debris out of it. The gas co got some sand in the mains some how and it made it way into a factory with csst. It kept causing the regulators to fail. It was a real pain getting it all out due to the lines running up and down instead of a constant grade. Plus, the corrugations kept trapping the sand and slowly releasing it. It took me hours to get it out of the systems. I was lucky in that all of the tubing was accessible. I had to have someone purge the lines while I walked the entire system shaking the CSST to work all the sand out. I've never had to go through all that with black iron or galvo. Just my $0.02


http://leakdetectionwinterhaven.com


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

sierra2000 said:


> My years of installing it and this is proof enough for me.
> 
> http://www.csstfacts.org/CSST-Legal-Response.pdf
> 
> ...


Looks like damage control on the manufacturers part. They only include cases where they won.


http://lakelandplumber.biz


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Stuff is junk. I've fixed leaks more times than I care to admit on systems that were inspected, because of that I assume they passed a leak test, years after install.

I can count on one hand how many times I have installed it myself. Every time I have put it in it has been converting a wood fireplace to gas and I had to snake it through the clean out because there was no other access. Every time I warn the HO about the stuff and have them read up on the dangers of lightning strikes with that type of piping. I always used the sleeve over the entire length of it, used the counter strike to minimize the risk of a hole being blown through it and made the run of it as short as possible using as much steel as I possibly could. 
When I bought my house they had it run to the stove and I replaced it with steel as soon as I could. It took me all of half an hour and cost less than $50 to do it in steel. Where is the savings using trac pipe there? I still need to replace the trac pipe the gas company installed when the relocated my meter from inside to outside but I haven't had the time yet. Unfortunately it is the yellow coated junk and they didn't bond it like they should have but it's the gas company so it's OK, right?


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

How does the lightning not blow out the millions of gas flexes on allmost all gas fixtures and appliances across the USA? What the difference of it and CSST?


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

can a lightening strike affect appliance connectors?


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Will said:


> How does the lightning not blow out the millions of gas flexes on allmost all gas fixtures and appliances across the USA? What the difference of it and CSST?


There is no big difference. And if there is, problem solved! Make the stuff out of the gas flex. Haha. 
Millions of feet of the stuff has been installed for over 20 years. Given that and the cases that have been struck, it's a very small percent. 
Remember planes and cars crash occasionally. Shall we not use them because they've killed thousands of people over the years?


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

bct p&h said:


> Stuff is junk. I've fixed leaks more times than I care to admit on systems that were inspected, because of that I assume they passed a leak test, years after install. I can count on one hand how many times I have installed it myself. Every time I have put it in it has been converting a wood fireplace to gas and I had to snake it through the clean out because there was no other access. Every time I warn the HO about the stuff and have them read up on the dangers of lightning strikes with that type of piping. I always used the sleeve over the entire length of it, used the counter strike to minimize the risk of a hole being blown through it and made the run of it as short as possible using as much steel as I possibly could. When I bought my house they had it run to the stove and I replaced it with steel as soon as I could. It took me all of half an hour and cost less than $50 to do it in steel. Where is the savings using trac pipe there? I still need to replace the trac pipe the gas company installed when the relocated my meter from inside to outside but I haven't had the time yet. Unfortunately it is the yellow coated junk and they didn't bond it like they should have but it's the gas company so it's OK, right?


Try running 80' of steel under a house or in an attic then talk to me about cost savings and quick installation.


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## mytxplumber (Jul 28, 2013)

CSST does not meet the same requirements as a flex connector or gas flex line. The standards for a flex line are higher than for CSST. I learned that back in the 90's. We even had that brought up in a continued ed class here about 4 years ago. We do run gas in hot attics it get hot here to around 98 today. 
We have had to replace the stuff where there was no other way to run it without tearing the house to ****. One was a lightning strike and the homeowner had to sign off on liability before we did the job. We have a lot of thunderstorms here and I would not place it in my home.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

mytxplumber said:


> CSST does not meet the same requirements as a flex connector or gas flex line.<SNIP>
> 
> Bonding may not be the answer for "CSST"
> 
> http://www.nbcdfw.com/investigation...n-Spite-of-New-Safety-Measures-246966451.html


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Show me a case of omega flex's counter strike failing.


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## mytxplumber (Jul 28, 2013)

*Trac pipe*

It has failed I have pulled it out but the insurance company took the pipe. It is more resistant but not lightning proof. The town I live in has made it next to impossible to put in with all the requirements needed for inspection. The reason is they have seen it fail to. For a while they did not allow it to be installed and CSST lawyers came calling and they just added more requirements to the installation. There have been a lot of fires here with the stuff.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

sierra2000 said:


> Try running 80' of steel under a house or in an attic then talk to me about cost savings and quick installation.


Been there, done that. Last crawl space gas job I did was 100' end to end at the beach so it was pretty much like crawling around in a giant cat box. All done in steel. If you can figure a straight shot with the right hangers, it doesn't take all that long.
Let me know when you can run 4" ccst to feed a commercial kitchen.
I can see the end user benefits of pvc and pex, won't rot out and should last longer than cast and copper. I see nothing but trouble for the end user of ccst. Between the lightning strikes, carelessness of people putting holes in it and connections that decide to start leaking years after install, I see no benefit to the end user.
How about the guys that size ccst like it's steel and that brand new high efficient boiler is starving for fuel and runs like crap? 
I'll stick with installing steel pipe. In some instances it may take a little longer but it looks better and I won't stay up at night any time a lightning storm rolls through.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

No cost savings though huh? Didn't take all that long but wasn't quick either huh? We'll, maybe next time you'll get faster at cutting thread. How much time does it take to figure for a straight shot?
Sand and rocky dirt makes a big difference.


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## Nathan901 (Feb 11, 2012)

Just finished a complete house gas piping job in a crawl space, in Florida. Pool heater(not sure why), gas WH, gas drier, gas range, fireplace, and outside grill. Basically end to end. 

All threaded steel pipe.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Wish I had a picture saved, I beleive I do but I'll have to do some searching. I did a remodel once where the pipe feeding the fireplace had black pipe with a hole blown out(not in) from what I beleive was lightning. Nothing is safe from Lightning.


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

bct p&h said:


> In some instances it may take a little longer but it looks better and I won't stay up at night any time a lightning storm rolls through.


We've lost the tradesmanship of water lines all nice and plumb. I still like iron for that as well, costs aren't killing us for using it.


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