# I need help



## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

After wasting about 9 hours total I am still no further along in my quest.

This is a partial repipe - slab plumbing - laundry / 1) 3/4 bath, kitchen.

For the life of me I cannot find the manifolds. I know Protec is a master (mad ninga skillz i think) at finding them, but I have scoped just about every wall in the place. I am starting to thing this thing is tee'd off under the slab. How do I find this thing. I have a boat load of work to do on the place and I don't get paid on it till after rough passes. Any tips / tricks / anything? There are no slab leaks so I wasn't sure if calling in a sniffer would help.....at this point it is costing me a lot of money right now...help


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Can you go for a total repipe if you need to?


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Well....sigh......It's an addition, that did not affect the kitchen or bathroom. The partial was to cut off the kitchen and go in wall (few feet) redo the 3/4 to the water heater in garage, than run back to the addition...picking up the manifolds along the way and simply feeding the bathroom only. To repipe the entire thing......hmm, I gotta think about that for a bit. I would have to open up a lot, and these old ass houses have the X bracing which is always a pain.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Just a thought, t sometimes if your loosing your arsie a different plan might be more beneficial. Protec will be by soon I'm sure.


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Tankless said:


> these old ass houses have the X bracing which is always a pain.


Is called "Let-In-Bracing" 
Many balloon framed houses have them. It stabilizes it and helps keep it from leaning. Pain? I know, my house is the same. The only way I know of to find something under a slab is with infra red.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Have all the stops in the house turned off, presurize the system then open one stop part way to get it to make noise, then use your leak deteaction equipment to trace the sound of the moving water.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> Have all the stops in the house turned off, presurize the system then open one stop part way to get it to make noise, then use your leak deteaction equipment to trace the sound of the moving water.


 
It would take me 3 pages to explain it all, but I did that....many times. Whenever there is water rinning, I hear it at all the pipes, some stronger than others, but there is no mani anywhere near or far. it really sounds like it's tee'd off under ground. Has anyone ever seen anything like that? It seems so crazy to me and so far out of the question that I know better than just to totally dismiss it. I can flush the toilet and put my hand on the shower cold pipe and feel water moving, I can hear it...but no mani what so ever. How the hell do I get an Infared camera that could see this? I can easily configure to get hot water in all the piping.....If that is the case and there is tee's underground, I gotta change the whole bid and rework everything......errrr. Who has that kind of camera? FWIW I don't do leak detection


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Tankless said:


> It would take me 3 pages to explain it all, but I did that....many times. Whenever there is water rinning, I hear it at all the pipes, some stronger than others, but there is no mani anywhere near or far. it really sounds like it's tee'd off under ground. Has anyone ever seen anything like that? It seems so crazy to me and so far out of the question that I know better than just to totally dismiss it. I can flush the toilet and put my hand on the shower cold pipe and feel water moving, I can hear it...but no mani what so ever. How the hell do I get an Infared camera that could see this? I can easily configure to get hot water in all the piping.....If that is the case and there is tee's underground, I gotta change the whole bid and rework everything......errrr. Who has that kind of camera? FWIW I don't do leak detection


If you can get hot water into the cold water lines in the slab you can use an infared pyrometer to find hot spots in concrete to trace the lines, the hotter the water the easier it is to pinpoint.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

There is a system called Line Trac if I am recalling it right. It lets you trace individual lines. in a multiline system. You put one trace wire at the meter, then the other trace wire at the fixture and the receiver will only pick up the signal on the pipe that connects between the two points. Any branch lines will not show up till you move the other wire to the next fixture.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

You cannot do a partial repipe if you have joints under the slab. Well unless you found each joint you could. Thats not do-able in my book. Do you find any water pipes anywhere? If you do see how its piped to the fixture.....single pipes coming out of the slab for hot and cold means joints under the slab. Basically you hafta find where they come out of the slab and how many pipes there are......if its looped from fixture to fixture you should find atleast two pipes...one coming in and the other going out to another fixture or manifold.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Draw a pic of the house floor plan......include everything!


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

I own a fluke hand held IR, slab is a true 4" set in beach sand. This is something I gotta get figured out tomorrow........hmmm, who would I call for THAT kind of tracer or proper IR system?


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

It's not looped. Just single risers coming out of the slab through the bottom plates. I'll Pshop something here in a few


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Finally found the link for the Line Tracer. http://www.pulsar2000.com/


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Tankless said:


> It's not looped. Just single risers coming out of the slab through the bottom plates. I'll Pshop something here in a few


 Your F'd. Get ready to repipe it.


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## Shadow Sabre (Oct 12, 2009)

I have used a ground probe and held it to the concrete and heard the leak in the handle to find a leak. It's cheap and might be worth a try however I'm not there and know your whole situation.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Shadow Sabre said:


> I have used a ground probe and held it to the concrete and heard the leak in the handle to find a leak. It's cheap and might be worth a try however I'm not there and know your whole situation.


 He doesn't have a leak under the slab or thats what he says in his 1st post.. So why are you doing a partial repipe tankless if you dont have a leak?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Tankless said:


> Well....sigh......It's an addition, that did not affect the kitchen or bathroom. The partial was to cut off the kitchen and go in wall (few feet) redo the 3/4 to the water heater in garage, than run back to the addition...picking up the manifolds along the way and simply feeding the bathroom only. To repipe the entire thing......hmm, I gotta think about that for a bit. I would have to open up a lot, and these old ass houses have the X bracing which is always a pain.


In another thread you said a while back the water heater had been moved to a new location but it was piped with 1/2". You said you knew where the water heaters old location was. Why didn't you just run new 3/4 hot and cold pipe from the old location....to the existing location and do away with the 1/2" connections. Now that corrects the house plumbing. For the addition get your 3/4 hot and cold right at the water heater.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> He doesn't have a leak under the slab or thats what he says in his 1st post.. So why are you doing a partial repipe tankless if you dont have a leak?


Have a look at that WH and WD. I am doing an addition, and I couldn't supply that new bathroom (not pictured) correctly off 1/2" lines. So the partial was bringing a new 3/4 to the WH and starting a new point of origin for HW. At that point it was 1/2" for the laundry & kitchen. cutting OFF the risers and now the slab plumbing is no longer supplying the kitchen (however the lines are still pressurized) and I need to find the mani to cut and cap em. I have NEVER seen plumbing like this if in fact there is no mani......and based on the way it looks there is not one. FUK


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

You need to run 3/4 pipes hot and cold from the old water heater location to the existing water heater location. Then from the water heater run the hot and cold to the addition. problem solved....no manifold needed to be found.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Well......see, umm, I already sold it. Leme back up a bit. HO expressed interest in getting rid of the slab plumbing. Her next year or two includes a (pictured above) bathroom remod...sometime after that the kitchen. I was expecting that mani near the WC venting or adjacent wall, I was planning on doing what you mentioned leaving the bathroom only with slab piping. So just hear that for a second....now, there is another jem to this story...there is a hose bib that was stubbed out of the wall. That wall is now gone and the bib is now in the middle of a new second bedroom. I need to get rid of that. so......wait there is another jem!! When I inspected all of the risers comming out of the plates I got my big ass head down in there to make damn sure I wasn't missing anything or see a fitting tee'd off or something....Well, the kitchen cold has a very small leak that is rotting out the plate and has calcified up. Mind you my HO is expecting all that to be disconnected, the only way i can think of now making that happen is a full repipe. Even if I did it with the change order I just got signed, i'd still be ahead but I just gotta get my ass to work on this...one way or another. I can't be leaving lines capped off but still pressurised. The CO is fat and I want the work. So I can either give back a few grand or add another 500-1K for the full repipe.......see where I'm at?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I think you and everyone else would be better off just repiping it. I would GIVE them a repipe before i tried to track all those joints down under the slab.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Am I an idiot or is this sort of piping a common occurance? Here's what I know about putting fittings under the slab....Never EVER is it to be done. I understand for small slab leak repairs, but this is 1950's plumbing. Granted I haven't done a LARGE amount of work in this particular neighborhood but still......everything tee'd under slab? WTF?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

There are some houses here also that where built in late 50's that have joints under the slab. Its usually the entire neighborhood when you find one around here. Most have manifolds.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

I don't know if I feel better or worse...but thanks for the help on this. If you need any Noritz flow sensors...i'm ya boi!


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## Shadow Sabre (Oct 12, 2009)

Sorry, about that I was half a sleep when I gave you the It-10-T error for not reading the whole post. Go with the entire repipe and everyone will be happier in the long run and the value of the home will be better off.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Maybe I missed it but don't you have an electronic pipe/sonde locator? It seems all you need to do is trace the lines in the slab. 

Mark


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> Maybe I missed it but don't you have an electronic pipe/sonde locator? It seems all you need to do is trace the lines in the slab.
> 
> Mark


It would take me longer to trace / jack hammer / expose / cap a line than it would to open up the wall and just repipe it. Because there were still some unknowns when I bid the CO, I left it fat enough to CMA in case something popped up. I was / am kinda suprised on this method of plumbing...new one for me.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> Maybe I missed it but don't you have an electronic pipe/sonde locator? It seems all you need to do is trace the lines in the slab.
> 
> Mark


I think what Mark is saying is to trace the lines to see if they do come together at a common spot for a idea were the mani. is. That is what I would do.. If you traced the supply coming in it should lead to the first mani. if it's there. Looking at your drawing, if there was not a mani. behind that old water heater location you may be right. It looks like I would have headed there first. Maybe it was done under Fl. code?..... I'm just sayin"™

:laughing:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I've got to get back to work so i can't read the whole post. It sounds like you need a navitrack and a line transmitter. Light the lines up and map out the system. I have no idea how you are going to find out wher the system has 3/4" trunks if it's been rigged. If it is infact a hard copper trunk and branch system with tees under the floor you've got problems.

I have one suggestion but it will take some balls (no pun intended). After mapping the system, put a 5/8" marble/ball bearing/whatever into the main and open everything up. The ball will get stuck in the in of the 3/4" run and based off of where the loss of water flow is observed you can jackhammer open the floor at that tee to tie onto 3/4". Alternativly you cut just back flush the ball back out the main and then find a better spot to tie onto the 3/4" trunk line since you now know how far the 3/4" line goes before reducing down.


I'll get back to ya when I clear my calls.


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## WestCoastPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Tankless said:


> It would take me 3 pages to explain it all, but I did that....many times. Whenever there is water rinning, I hear it at all the pipes, some stronger than others, but there is no mani anywhere near or far. it really sounds like it's tee'd off under ground. Has anyone ever seen anything like that? It seems so crazy to me and so far out of the question that I know better than just to totally dismiss it. I can flush the toilet and put my hand on the shower cold pipe and feel water moving, I can hear it...but no mani what so ever. How the hell do I get an Infared camera that could see this? I can easily configure to get hot water in all the piping.....If that is the case and there is tee's underground, I gotta change the whole bid and rework everything......errrr. Who has that kind of camera? FWIW I don't do leak detection


 


I had a house about 3 years ago, no manifolds, once I located the leak, I had removed concrete and located all the joints in the area were brazed, it was a government built house for military, but later turned into a sub division.

Not unheard of to have joints under the slab sadly.


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## hulihan (Aug 11, 2009)

What is a manifold on a copper repipe, we run the service and pipe the house, so I am not sure, you are 2 hours up the coast, we do not use PVC for anything but sprinklers outside, I thought the manifold was the front, where the Reg,Relief valve, hs shut off and all the rest of the required stuff goes, is it a big sprawlling ranch ?


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## hulihan (Aug 11, 2009)

Gold-Dek In Glendale CA


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

We had a couple of large apartment complexes (200+ units) with copper in the slab and no manifolds. After 20-years of slab leaks the owner finally started repiping buildings. Back then all we had was Goldak equipment but we were still able to locate all of the pipes. Today with Navitrack and a transmitter it would be a piece of cake to know where every pipe in the house is. Knowing where the pipes are in the slab will let you know if you have manifolds or not.

Mark


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Glendale - 101 / 134 is about 1:20 from here. And no this is no sprawling ranch. It's a tiny beach house that is being made a little bigger. 

I spent 4 hrs on Monday searching for the mani. I spent another 5 hours yesterday. I searched in every possible location that the mani could be in. I can flush the toilet and feel the stub up hose bib and it feels like the joing is right there. I can run the laundry and I hear nothing anywhere near the bathroom, and vice versa. If there are (and I am now all but certain there are) Tees under this slab I want nothing to do with them. Tracing everything out and all that is fine, but I can have pipe in the walls faster so it makes no sense to mess with any of that at this point. 

I still think it sucks ass that people put tees under slab.....did they think it was gonna last forever?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

ok, done with my toilet rebuild so i got a sec now
since you are going to remodel the kitchen anyway, why not cut into the kitchen line and send some 1/4" pex down the line. If it goes like 10' down then it's a loop and manifold system and you can sound out the other end when it hits the manifold. If it only goes down a foot or so then you know for a fact your dealing with a hard system with fittings under the floor.......not good.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech said:


> ok, done with my toilet rebuild so i got a sec now
> since you are going to remodel the kitchen anyway, why not cut into the kitchen line and send some 1/4" pex down the line. If it goes like 10' down then it's a loop and manifold system and you can sound out the other end when it hits the manifold. If it only goes down a foot or so then you know for a fact your dealing with a hard system with fittings under the floor.......not good.


No shyit.....that's a good idea. I was planning on just cutting all the risers, but I can do that. I think I'm just going to get all the piping ran today than will cut it in tomorrow or so. Gotta talk to the GC first.

Thanks


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

I don't care for water lines in the slab regardless of materials but it is legal so what are you going to do. We have both copper and galvanize homes here with under-slab pipe so we have our share of slab leaks here. While the Code discourages joints in the slab it does not prohibit them. I've even done homes in the San Fernando Valley which had copper gas lines in the slab. 

Your best bet on a remodel is to always figure new 3/4" Hot & Cold from the water heater (assuming properly sized) and if you find something closer you put a little extra in your pocket. Either way you cover your backside price wise.

Mark


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Got there and told the GC it was about a hald day of labor and X amount of materials. Didn't bat an eye, just said do it. The HO and I were talking and she asked me to replace the water heater with a 40 gal double R and I told her I would give the cost to the GC but it will be brought up to code, becasue as it is now, it's a mess. Problem is, now that pushes me back even more and I don't get paid till after rough inspection passes. This puts me towards the end of next week and my phone is blowing up. I have 2 tankless jobs to look at in about a half hour and one more in the morning plus a call back....sometime soon.....And it's been raining for 2 days, but by Friday it's sopposed to be 90 degrees. Attic work tomorrow for me


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