# This water heater stumped me.



## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

Before you rag on me know I may be a bit loopy from medicine I'm taking for my broken toe, haha. 
I went out to service an 8 year old A.O. Smith electric water heater. Customer said the breaker on the thermostat would trip every few days.

I always replace both elements and thermostats so I don't have to return later to do the other and then have to charge what amounts to be double.

I checked the voltage after I replaced everything and it all checked out good. They called me that night to let me know they had no hot water.

I went out this morning. Checked the voltage, ohm reading and continuity on both elements, all good. Breakers on the thermostat and electric panel were both good. Replaced both elements and thermostats with brand new units I bought this morning, the new units I put in yesterday had been in my van for several months, and still no hot water.

I made sure to fill the tank before I powered it on both times so I know that wasn't it. When I turned the power on I couldn't even hear the usual sizzle from the elements heating up.

What did I miss?


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Did you put a new breaker? Sometime they start tripping because they wear out from tripping too much.

I think it's time to call an electrician. Maybe they hooked several things on the same breaker or on the same wire. There might be a short somewhere, water dripping on bare wire causing a short etc.


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

Tango said:


> Did you put a new breaker? Sometime they start tripping because they wear out from tripping too much.
> 
> I think it's time to call an electrician. Maybe they hooked several things on the same breaker or on the same wire. There might be a short somewhere, water dripping on bare wire causing a short etc.


 I didn't put in a new breaker. The customer said they never had to reset the breaker at the panel only on the water heater. I told them to contact an electrician because I don't think I got 2 defective sets of elements and thermostats.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Might as well swap the breaker since they cost about $10. But whenever you have a tripped breaker or you’re swapping a heater or elements, always tighten the wires in the breaker. Loose wires create heat and can trip breakers.


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

If it were a breaker issue would it still allow the proper voltage to the heater? I checked the voltage on it for probably 20 minutes and it stayed pretty constant. I don't mess with anything in the panel since I lack an electrician license and my insurance agent warned me not to do anything beyond flipping a breaker off and on. 
My multimeter isn't one of those fancy types that can log readings so I'm not 100% sure it never dropped.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Subscribed.


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

Did you check current draw? The presence of voltage doesn’t mean much. Is it wired correctly? Is there a leak somewhere that’s small enough to not show up yet big enough to keep the heater from catching up (Lela’s under slab for example)? Is there something in the house back feeding giving the appearance of no hot water when there really is?

And it’s not a circuit breaker on the t-stat. It’s an ECO (high limit).


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

Toli said:


> Did you check current draw? The presence of voltage doesn’t mean much. Is it wired correctly? Is there a leak somewhere that’s small enough to not show up yet big enough to keep the heater from catching up (Lela’s under slab for example)? Is there something in the house back feeding giving the appearance of no hot water when there really is?
> 
> And it’s not a circuit breaker on the t-stat. It’s an ECO (high limit).


 I did not do a current draw. Everything was wired correctly. There are no visible leaks, all the pipes are above ground. I doubt there is anything crossed since it was working fine for 8 years but I didn't go through the whole house checking. I drained water from the t&p valve after 20 minutes of waiting to see if it was heating and the water was cold.

I'm sorry, I've gotten used to calling it a breaker because most homeowners know what that is and it helps me explain what's going on. 

The only other detail, which I doubt would affect the water heater, is that they have a sewage ejector pump that constantly runs. They said it has been running non-stop for months. I felt the discharge pipe and it was pretty hot, the 2" fernco coupling before the check valve bulged with every pump and when I looked in the pit the pump was steaming. I know it's not tapped into the same breaker in the panel because it continued pumping even after I shut off power to the water heater. Is there any way that could cause electrical issues with the other things in the panel? Like I said, I'm no electrician.


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> Toli said:
> 
> 
> > Did you check current draw? The presence of voltage doesn’t mean much. Is it wired correctly? Is there a leak somewhere that’s small enough to not show up yet big enough to keep the heater from catching up (Lela’s under slab for example)? Is there something in the house back feeding giving the appearance of no hot water when there really is?
> ...


I hear you. And I’m not trying to bust balls if I came across that way. 

I doubt a sewage ejector running continuously would have anything to do with it. 

Current draw is the best way to tell if the elements are working, IMO.


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

No problem Toli, I didn't think you were trying to bust my balls. I just get so used to explaining things to homeowners in the simplest terms that it just becomes part of my vernacular. 

He said there is an electrician going out so hopefully I can update with his results.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

was it hot when you got there? or the heater was totally out, since the people stated the breaker goes every few days it sounds like they reset the breaker and had hot water for a few days..


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> was it hot when you got there? or the heater was totally out, since the people stated the breaker goes every few days it sounds like they reset the breaker and had hot water for a few days..


 The water was warm yesterday. After I replaced the parts I stayed for around 30 minutes and the water was getting hotter. 
When I went out this morning the water was cold but the ECO wasn't tripped. After I swapped out the parts I again stayed for almost an hour but the water never heated.
I made sure the elements were of the right voltage and wattage according to the sticker on the water heater and they matched the ratings of the old parts.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> The water was warm yesterday. After I replaced the parts I stayed for around 30 minutes and the water was getting hotter.
> When I went out this morning the water was cold but the ECO wasn't tripped. After I swapped out the parts I again stayed for almost an hour but the water never heated.
> I made sure the elements were of the right voltage and wattage according to the sticker on the water heater and they matched the ratings of the old parts.


Undo the wires at top of wh and see if you have current there,if not it in panel box


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

It's out of my hands now. He said he was getting an electrician out to check it out. I told him I couldn't replace the water heater for him since I broke my toe and I wouldn't be able to lift the water heater out of his basement. 
I did check the wiring at the top of the heater and the wire nuts were on tight and the wires were hooked up correctly. The voltage coming in was at 244v if I recall.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

im gona take a guess and say the breaker or safety on the water heater went bad..


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> It's out of my hands now. He said he was getting an electrician out to check it out. I told him I couldn't replace the water heater for him since I broke my toe and I wouldn't be able to lift the water heater out of his basement.
> I did check the wiring at the top of the heater and the wire nuts were on tight and the wires were hooked up correctly. The voltage coming in was at 244v if I recall.


The electrician is going to get there and say “there’s 244 volts going into the water heater and you don’t have hot water, call a plumber”. Let us know what happens when you go back.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

244v seems a bit high. I know the cut off is like 250v but still. You may want to call the electric company and explain that your customer is having weird electrical issues and you think they should check the transformer on the pole and maybe swap the electric meter(not that it would be bad but it would get them to check it out). They usually have pretty good electricians who take current and voltage readings all the time checking for leakage issues.


If there is good voltage at the heater and the panel breaker isn't tripping and the water isn't getting hot/hot fast enough that tells me the current is going through something other than the elements. You siad you changed the elements twice and the thermostats. My guess is the wiring inside the jacket is chewed. Disconnect the power to the heater. Disconnect all the wire connections from the elements and the breakers. Then check ohms/continuity between every connection and the ground screw and between every wire and the other wires. A mouse may have chewed them.


*Run new wires between the elements and the thermostats outside of the water heater. Than you know for certain there are no shorts.*




*.*


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

*best answer*

Go to the junction box on the top of the heater disconnect wires if no power there go to panel. check if power there. Do this live no power then click breaker off/on a few times. Still a problem, it's in the panel.
Now back to the wire nuts. How do you tighten nuts? I have a screw driver with a multi-fit handle -- fits all wire nuts ribbed, bladed -- yellow, red,
fingers don't do it. As to checking terminals tighten all on the upper, lower stats. Make sure that discharge from R/V can be seen. Have found a couple shoved into a pipe like a wash machine drain -- the heater could be running to drain, not seen.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Go to the junction box on the top of the heater disconnect wires if no power there go to panel. check if power there. Do this live no power then click breaker off/on a few times. Still a problem, it's in the panel.
> Now back to the wire nuts. How do you tighten nuts? I have a screw driver with a multi-fit handle -- fits all wire nuts ribbed, bladed -- yellow, red,
> fingers don't do it. As to checking terminals tighten all on the upper, lower stats. Make sure that discharge from R/V can be seen. Have found a couple shoved into a pipe like a wash machine drain -- the heater could be running to drain, not seen.





The problem is that he does have power and everything seems correct but the high limit breaker(red button) on the thermostat keeps tripping even though it is on it's third set of thermostats and elements.




He has not however taken current readings or given us the ohms on the different parts of the circuit so it is still possible he has a short somewhere.








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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> PLUMBER_BILL said:
> 
> 
> > Go to the junction box on the top of the heater disconnect wires if no power there go to panel. check if power there. Do this live no power then click breaker off/on a few times. Still a problem, it's in the panel.
> ...


 I haven't taken those readings because he said he was getting an electrician out. I told him I wouldn't be able to do any more since I have a broken toe and it was too painful walking up his steep driveway, up stairs to the front door and then down stairs to the basement.
I really went out there to try to help him since he gives me a lot of work on other rentals he manages. 
Just to clarify, the high limit breaker has not tripped since I replaced the parts. The original I replaced was tripping every few days. 
I haven't heard anything from him yet but I'll update with any findings.


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

Just received word that the guy he got out just swapped a new heater in and it's working fine. At least for now.
He didn't do any diagnostic so I guess I'll never know what went wrong. If I had to guess I'd say skoronesa was right and most likely one of the wires in the sleeve was frayed and causing issues. I'm guessing my messing with the wires exacerbated the issue.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Wait, an election swapped out a heater? WTF?


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> Just received word that the guy he got out just swapped a new heater in and it's working fine. At least for now.
> He didn't do any diagnostic so I guess I'll never know what went wrong. If I had to guess I'd say skoronesa was right and most likely one of the wires in the sleeve was frayed and causing issues. I'm guessing my messing with the wires exacerbated the issue.


:vs_peek::vs_peek::vs_peek:Hey you forgot me! Post #2



> I think it's time to call an electrician. Maybe they hooked several things on the same breaker or on the same wire. There might be a short somewhere, water dripping on bare wire causing a short etc.


Oh by the way if an electrician or any other trade swapped out the heater after me he'd get a complaint so quick he'd regret installing it.


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

OpenSights said:


> Wait, an election swapped out a heater? WTF?


 I don't know the guy he got out there. He told me it was going to be an electrician but who knows.
I know he used to have a guy who did his plumbing before he started using me so it may have been that guy.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> I'm guessing my messing with the wires exacerbated the issue.


I thought he said he masturbated on the issue lolololo:vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_whistle:


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

sparky said:


> V.A Hydro-ooter said:
> 
> 
> > I'm guessing my messing with the wires exacerbated the issue.
> ...


 I might have had better results if I had, haha.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> I might have had better results if I had, haha.


maybe something would have cum to you......:surprise:


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## breplum (Mar 21, 2009)

Sewage ejectors are not supposed to run continuously.
Seems like things need more discerning attention.


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

breplum said:


> Sewage ejectors are not supposed to run continuously.
> Seems like things need more discerning attention.


 I'm aware of that. Unfortunately I couldn't put pressure of my broken toe by kneeling to check it out. I'm pretty sure it was an issue with the float mechanism but I just couldn't look in there to see if it was stuck or not. 
I was surprised that thing has been running non-stop for months without burning up. Even the PVC 8 to 10 feet away from the pump was close to being too hot to handle.
It reminds of a job I did a few weeks ago where the customer got a $2,300 water bill. Turns out his expansion valve got stuck open and was continuously running. The homeowner said he noticed his sump pump had been running for the past few weeks regardless of rainfall. They get quarterly water bills or it would've been caught sooner. The pump I replaced was a 20 year old Zoeller m53, my personal favorite.


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## brayanjack (Jul 29, 2019)

Tango said:


> Did you put a new breaker? Sometime they start tripping because they wear out from tripping too much.
> 
> I think it's time to call an electrician. Maybe they hooked several things on the same breaker or on the same wire. There might be a short somewhere, water dripping on bare wire causing a short etc.


I agree here with you because sometime we assume its appliance issue which is not true all the time. You can recheck the wiring and breaker if its working fine. After making sure you can consult with the water heater repairing experts. Heating and Cooling experts can provide you repairing service or will suggest you to buy a new one if the existing system is flopped.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

brayanjack said:


> I agree here with you because sometime we assume its appliance issue which is not true all the time. You can recheck the wiring and breaker if its working fine. After making sure you can consult with the water heater repairing experts. Heating and Cooling experts can provide you repairing service or will suggest you to buy a new one if the existing system is flopped.




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