# Brainiacks



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I had a call on a trash can lift station pump meltdown. Pump no big deal, someone had unplugged the piggyback and plugged them in separately. But with all this rain the tank is trying to float. Can't relocate to higher ground. Ideas on how to overcome this ballast problem? Tank is @ 2' x 3' plastic.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

maybe pour concrete around the base.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

house plumber said:


> maybe pour concrete around the base.


That's what I was thinking.:thumbsup:


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

thats what I usually do. Dump a few bags of sandmix and throw some water in there. I had a sparky burn a pump out cuz he plugged them in individually. Sad part is I told him the day before on what to do and he still did it wrong.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

house plumber said:


> thats what I usually do. Dump a few bags of sandmix and throw some water in there.


3 or 4 bags? I have always heard you guys in Fl. had to deal with things trying to float?


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

slickrick said:


> 3 or 4 bags? I have always heard you guys in Fl. had to deal with things trying to float?


We've had 1000 gal grease traps float. Most places here on the west coast, you dig down 5 feet and you hit water.

3 or 4 bags maybe 6 depends on how I feel when I'm doing it


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Drill holes in the bottom of the pit.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

jjbex said:


> Drill holes in the bottom of the pit.


I know your not serious.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

3 bags of fast set concrete, mix it dry, dump right down inside with pump out and tank where it belongs.

A wood handle shovel or anything that will vibrate and level out the concrete in the bottom since you cannot see it.


This will solve the' problamo.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> 3 bags of fast set concrete, mix it dry, dump right down inside with pump out and tank where it belongs.
> 
> A wood handle shovel or anything that will vibrate and level out the concrete in the bottom since you cannot see it.
> 
> ...


You are serious. Add some weight. Not going to hurt capacity much. Have you done this many times?


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I am teasing you. I have seen this before, the h/o usually brags about it, as if they are an Einsteen or something.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

jjbex said:


> I am teasing you. I have seen this before, the h/o usually brags about it, as if they are an Einsteen or something.


What do you think about Dunbars tekneek? ( I hit spell checker and that's what it came up with).


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Throw a few lead bars in there:laughing:

Seriously though, an epoxy coated piece of rebar drilled through the center of the basin work good. Then back fill just enough to make a concrete form around both ends of the bar. Pour concrete in on each side of the basin.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

How bout raising the pump or the float level?


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

had problems like that before at a little place called Shell point here.Used to go look at new tank pits that were installed a few months ago by the company I worked for. Pull the lid and the pit looked like a swollen you know what, with the discharge pipe coming out if it. went with a totatlly different tank desgin from Zoeller. I dont know if these newer tanks were designed not to crush when the tide rose, but the seem to have held up. These tanks were taller, and reneforced on the sides. thicker green plastic tanks.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Epoxy coated re-bar thru the center with concrete on each end.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

slickrick said:


> You are serious. Add some weight. Not going to hurt capacity much. Have you done this many times?


 
Not in a long time but it works. That mix has to be tight or the water that your dumping it in will start to break it down.

3 60 pound bags is 180 pounds so that is pretty dense matter at the base of one of those pits.

Almost like you poured a 5-6" new bottom to it.

We used to have a hell of time with sump crocks. Wasn't allowed to drill numerous smaller holes if it doubled as a radon pit. 2 holes for the footer drains and that was about it. 

Then we'd put something heavy on top the lid as well to keep it there along with the concrete guys from pouring over top of it.

We've had to bust concrete out and dig out, just because the pit was too deep into the grade. 

No perfect science at all.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Rick how deep is the basin? I would suggest concrete ballast OUTSIDE the tank. If the tank has a lip around the bottom it takes less ballast as your ballast also has to push the earth above it as well as the ballast weight. Internal ballast of concrete inside the tank makes no sense. A 2x3 tank one foot deep would require concrete inside of 5" deep to balance out the displacement. The specific gravity of water is 1.00 and the specific gravity of concrete is 2.37. The easy way to figure the math on this is this Example 2'x3'x3' deep tank. 36" (depth of water specific gravity 1.00) divided by 2.27 (specific gravity of concrete) = 15.18 inches of concrete inside the tank. That aint gonna work, it will float with anything less. Keep in my you can subtract some of this ballast equal to the weight of the tank and pump but your not gonna notice a big difference. I know there will be naysayers here so let me explain it in weight also. A 2x3x3 tank contains 18 cubic feet which means it will dispace 18 cubic feet of water. Water weighs 62.4 lbs per cubic foot. 18 x 62.4 = 1,123 lbs it takes to hold that tank down under the force of the water trying to float it. Conrete weighs 148 lbs per cubic foot. So 1123 divided by 148 = 7.59 cubic feet of concrete to hold the tank down. So 7.59cf divided by 18cf (the total of the tank) = 0.42 So 42% of the tank volume would have to be concrete ballast. 36" deep tank x 42% ballast volume = 15.12 inches however you slice it. :yes:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

The basins I use have a built in flange around the bottom outside of the basin for you to pour concrete on and keep it from floating. They are fabricated out of fiberglass. Works goodie!:yes:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Piperat said:


> Rick how deep is the basin? I would suggest concrete ballast OUTSIDE the tank. If the tank has a lip around the bottom it takes less ballast as your ballast also has to push the earth above it as well as the ballast weight. Internal ballast of concrete inside the tank makes no sense. A 2x3 tank one foot deep would require concrete inside of 5" deep to balance out the displacement. The specific gravity of water is 1.00 and the specific gravity of concrete is 2.37. The easy way to figure the math on this is this Example 2'x3'x3' deep tank. 36" (depth of water specific gravity 1.00) divided by 2.27 (specific gravity of concrete) = 15.18 inches of concrete inside the tank. That aint gonna work, it will float with anything less. Keep in my you can subtract some of this ballast equal to the weight of the tank and pump but your not gonna notice a big difference. I know there will be naysayers here so let me explain it in weight also. A 2x3x3 tank contains 18 cubic feet which means it will dispace 18 cubic feet of water. Water weighs 62.4 lbs per cubic foot. 18 x 62.4 = 1,123 lbs it takes to hold that tank down under the force of the water trying to float it. Conrete weighs 148 lbs per cubic foot. So 1123 divided by 148 = 7.59 cubic feet of concrete to hold the tank down. So 7.59cf divided by 18cf (the total of the tank) = 0.42 So 42% of the tank volume would have to be concrete ballast. 36" deep tank x 42% ballast volume = 15.12 inches however you slice it. :yes:


The tank is @ 3' tall. I removed the tank and mud down to hard packed clay and pumped the hole completely dry. Reinstalled the tank with 4 bags of sackcrete on the outside. The tank is cone shaped, with the smaller end down? The water is rainwater and I hope since I have the cement, water wont work it's way under the tank. This is like the PSI thread. Do you think I have accomplished anything?


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

No.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> No.


Well, now what?


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Rick, give me a little more info. Most important does the tank have a lip or flange that the concrete can adhere to? In other words will the concrete tie into the tank substantially enough that if the tank would lift the concrete would have to lift with it or is the tank smooth where the tank could just pull away from the concrete? This is important.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

slickrick said:


> The tank is @ 3' tall. I removed the tank and mud down to hard packed clay and pumped the hole completely dry. Reinstalled the tank with 4 bags of sackcrete on the outside. The tank is cone shaped, with the *smaller end down*? The water is rainwater and I hope since I have the cement, water wont work it's way under the tank. This is like the PSI thread. Do you think I have accomplished anything?


Does the sidewall of that tank have ribs where the concrete can mesh into the form of the tank? 

That should do well, and better than my suggestion of putting concrete inside the tank.

I did not know you had the ability to get to the outside of the tank.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Piperat said:


> Rick, give me a little more info. Most important does the tank have a lip or flange that the concrete can adhere to? In other words will the concrete tie into the tank substantially enough that if the tank would lift the concrete would have to lift with it or is the tank smooth where the tank could just pull away from the concrete? This is important.





DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Does the sidewall of that tank have ribs where the concrete can mesh into the form of the tank?
> 
> That should do well, and better than my suggestion of putting concrete inside the tank.
> 
> I did not know you had the ability to get to the outside of the tank.


The tank has no flange but does have some vert. ribs. It's a very poor design IMOP. I need a 24" riser clamp and some all thread. If the ribs don't grab the concrete it is coming out like a cork. The HO needs sod around this area or it may happen again. You would have to see the terrain, it is a mobile home waiting for a flood to carry it away. The city should have never let this street be developed.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Here is the unit.


http://www.faucetdepot.com/faucetde...AffiliateID=ChannelAdvisor&CAWELAID=224174835


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

slickrick said:


> Here is the unit.
> 
> 
> http://www.faucetdepot.com/faucetde...AffiliateID=ChannelAdvisor&CAWELAID=224174835


 
Wow. That's a narrow pit at the base. That pump has to be short cycling like that.



I can't see it holding with that smooth surface, really don't.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Wow. That's a narrow pit at the base. That pump has to be short cycling like that.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't see it holding with that smooth surface, really don't.


Has more pump than pit, thats for sure.


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## Everflow (Feb 1, 2010)

Here is the one we use. The city makes us put 12 bags of concrete a round it.


http://www.cranepumps.com/products/typeEngineeredBasin.php


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Everflow said:


> Here is the one we use. The city makes us put 12 bags of concrete a round it.
> 
> 
> http://www.cranepumps.com/products/typeEngineeredBasin.php


Nice looking unit. :thumbsup:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Have you all ever dealt with E-ONE systems? 

They say they'll grind aluminum cans and forks/spoons but it's odd how the pressure discharge is low, and 1.25" ????


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## Everflow (Feb 1, 2010)

DUNBAR

They are a grinder and a pump, when the stuff leaves them it is like a watery soup.

We have 2 whole subdivisions in town that work off of these, close to 3000 lots. what happens is every house has one and it pumps to the street, in the street there are mains that go from 2" to 4" pipe every time a grinder comes on it pushes the stuff a little more.

We set the grinders and run all the pipe, when the house is done with water testing we call the grinder man he comes out pumps out the basin and sets the pump, and guarantees it for 2 years.

That 100.00 he charges is money well spent.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

i think we use little giants. its been awhile since i've put one in. i know the one for under a sink we use its little giants.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

The e-one is a fantastic system. Its been a few years since I have installed one but I would venture to say they are roughly five times as expensive as Ricks model.

The best I could reccomend for your system rick would be to get the concrete down at the bottom of the tank with a decent diameter of concrete to take advantage of the weight of the soil above the concrete as addittional ballast see this diagram.








The ballast weight of the soil above the concrete can be roughly figured at 70 lbs per cubic foot. I am guessing the ribs at the top of your tank are fairly "meaty" i would drill a hole in 4 of those flanges and bend a 90 degree angle on each end of a 3/8 rebar with one end in the concrete and one end through the hole in the rib other wise I would look at a different style sump with a flange at the bottom. I doubt you will find one in that price range though. Hope this helps.

P.S. E-one's site claims the weight of concrete should only be figured at 87.6 pounds per CF instead of its true weight of 148 lbs. They call it weight of concrete in water for what its worth. Good Luck


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

This will have to be the last time I install this pump package. It is just a poor design. If they can't afford a unit that I can anchor, they will have to get someone else. It is the first one that has tried to float, but I like to do things 1 time. With it's design, it would make a good marker buoy.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

All you need to do is form a outer ring of concrete.....once it is dry and cured take it and place it on top of the container. should keep take sucker from floating up


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Also in high water table areas...when installing any plastic tank (septic or catch basin) be sure to fill it with water once you have it in the ground. This will keep it there. Even if the water table isn't high all you need is a good rain and it could float up over night.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> All you need to do is form a outer ring of concrete.....once it is dry and cured take it and place it on top of the container. should keep take sucker from floating up


Sorry OldSchool but one of my pet peeves is people posting information that simply doesn't work that may lead someone in the wrong direction. Your concrete set on top of the tank *Will Not Work *unless of course you make it about 1000 pounds for this very small tank and then how ya gonna move it. The math never lies guys. NEVER!!! I will put math above opinions and guesses anyday. The hydraulic forces at work will boggle the mind here. I have seen an 8000 lb concrete grease trap bob like a cork and there was still alot of freeboard showing. TRUE


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Also in high water table areas...*when installing any plastic tank* (septic or catch basin) be sure to fill it with water once you have it in the ground. This will keep it there. Even if the water table isn't high all you need is a good rain and it could float up over night.


This applies to concrete tanks as well. They will float also.:yes:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I've seen water raise concrete slabs everywhere inside a basement, so I definitely know water is an unstoppable force.


No two ways around it.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

Would it be feasible to somehow try to control the groundwater?
Means another sump, pump, etc, etc but it may be the only option. *shrug*


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I said a few months back I would take a few pics of the tanks i use but you know how that goes. I'ma swing by there and get some pics soon. They are heavy fiberglass with stainles hardware,built in flange on the outside bottom for anchoring. You hafta go with a good product or you will end up building the product on the job to get it to function.....thats how people end up with a ****ty job at the end of a hard days work. Start out right and it usually ends right.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Piperat said:


> Sorry OldSchool but one of my pet peeves is people posting information that simply doesn't work that may lead someone in the wrong direction. Your concrete set on top of the tank *Will Not Work *unless of course you make it about 1000 pounds for this very small tank and then how ya gonna move it. The math never lies guys. NEVER!!! I will put math above opinions and guesses anyday. The hydraulic forces at work will boggle the mind here. I have seen an 8000 lb concrete grease trap bob like a cork and there was still alot of freeboard showing. TRUE


After the PSI thread, I believe you. :thumbsup:


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

why not make it deeper in the ground and make some kind of a manhole to access the pumps and junk?


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## bartnc37 (Feb 24, 2009)

ive bent threaded rod at 90's and bolted it through the flange on top in a star pattern and creted them in. If you have a somewhat low ceiling, couple shiny pieces of galvy from ceiling to top of pit, couple pipe bases and unions and it works slick and looks pretty decent.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Piperat said:


> Sorry OldSchool but one of my pet peeves is people posting information that simply doesn't work that may lead someone in the wrong direction. Your concrete set on top of the tank *Will Not Work *unless of course you make it about 1000 pounds for this very small tank and then how ya gonna move it. The math never lies guys. NEVER!!! I will put math above opinions and guesses anyday. The hydraulic forces at work will boggle the mind here. I have seen an 8000 lb concrete grease trap bob like a cork and there was still alot of freeboard showing. TRUE


That my be true if the tank will always be empty. But I highly doubt that.....there will be a minimum amount of water that remains in the tank.... how about subtracting that from your equation. 

" *then how ya gonna move it*" ?????? how did you dig the hole in the first place? BY HAND? Use the equipment on site like an excavator of backhoe. Or Make form around it and pour in place.

As for the weight of concrete..... 1 cubic meter of concrete weights 2322 kg or 5120 lbs 

really not that much cement IMO


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Other than the weight of the pump and a few gallons of water, the tank does stay empty. I haven't done the math on the concrete but 5000 lbs+ of sackcrete @ 90#ea. + weight of water added = hellavbunch of bags of sackcrete.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

slickrick said:


> Other than the weight of the pump and a few gallons of water, the tank does stay empty. I haven't done the math on the concrete but 5000 lbs+ of sackcrete @ 90#ea. + weight of water added = hellavbunch of bags of sackcrete.


Well, doubtful you'll need 2-1/2 tons of concrete for that pipsqueak tank but that sump basin is of a design that'd drive anybody nuts. What a crap design! :whistling2:

I still think _another_ tank punched into the clay to handle the groundwater is a good idea. Obviously the costs have made this a no-go but if the situation you describe is normal then imagine after the next big rainstorm. 

Hope it all works out well.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Miguel said:


> Well, doubtful you'll need 2-1/2 tons of concrete for that pipsqueak tank but that sump basin is of a design that'd drive anybody nuts. What a crap design! :whistling2:
> 
> I still think _another_ tank punched into the clay to handle the groundwater is a good idea. Obviously the costs have made this a no-go but if the situation you describe is normal then imagine after the next big rainstorm.
> 
> Hope it all works out well.


We'll see what happens. Your right, it needs additional work, but at that point the pumps would be worth more than the trailer. He needs to move to higher ground.


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