# Your Plumbing Crusade.....



## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

Maybe it's a code, maybe it's a personal practice, but what is something that you see or that is done, that if you see it done that way, you absolutely have to say something, or do something, about it? Maybe you freak out? Perhaps it may be right by code, or many think it's right, but it's wrong on so many levels that you may justify. Call this, your crusade. 

For example, one of the things that drives me nuts is guys that don't pipe their PRV's (T & P or just straight PRV's) to a drain or have some provision so that if they go off, they don't flood the place or cause any water damage. I have seen a few examples of this (yet they still have to incorporate an air break, etc.)


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

plugging a PRV. installing a tankless heater right on top of a gas meter. dielectric unions...on anything. Guys that have nicer trucks than me...that pisses me off too!!!


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

lowballers


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

stillaround said:


> lowballers


He said Lowballers?:laughing:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

You arent afraid to post that?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

The Ironman ain't afraid of nothin or no body :thumbsup:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

i prefer this vantage point


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

1) Unlevel piping
2) Purple primer slung all over piping instead of inside fitting where it should be
3) Flexible tailpieces under KS
4) Not wiping solder joints for clean looking joints

All I could think of off the top of my head.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

stillaround said:


> You arent afraid to post that?



I'm the one on the right.:thumbup: BIG BRASS BALLS!:laughing:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Oh!

( Just because someone leaves themselves wide open is no reason for me to take advantage )

( if someone else wants to ask whats on the left--feel free--I couldnt do it)


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

sheetrock screws holding wc flanges

band iron with sheetrock screws supporting no hub 

un level or plumb piping 

air chambers installed on horizontal piping to fixtures 

using 90s for offsets in spots where 45s would work

scorched wood

and much much more..............


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## Double-A (Aug 17, 2008)

Gate vales or compression stops on a water heater. That just tweaks me. The worst of it is, some of the folks that install that crud are so proud of it, they put their name on a sticker and paste it on the heater for the next plumber to read.

To me, it always seems to read, "WeDon'tReallyCare Plumbing, Nothing is too cheap for us."


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

People wiping hot solder joints (makes for a bad joint even if it looks cleaner.)
No dielectric unions on water heaters. ( Its code here in Illinois) or a brass fitting to make the transition to dissimilar metals.
Lack of proper backflow prevention.
Them are the big three that get under my skin.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Scott K said:


> For example, one of the things that drives me nuts is guys that don't pipe their PRV's (T & P or just straight PRV's) to a drain or have some provision so that if they go off, they don't flood the place or cause any water damage. I have seen a few examples of this (yet they still have to incorporate an air break, etc.)


Since when does a PRV (Pressure Reducing Valve) have a blow off or are you talking about a RPZ (Reduced Pressure Zone Backflow Preventer)?


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

It's my goal to rid the world of gate valves on anything other than steam.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

1. Purple worms. (running primer. I'll make my helper cut them out and redo it.)
2. Solder drips
3. Hand bent supply tubes. (Don't be cheap and go buy a bender) I have to post a picture of one this kid at our shop did.
4. Putting offset flanges on at trim time.
5. A messy truck
6. I know there is more. but it's all i can think of right now.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x157/1rmrider/supplytube.jpg


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

house plumber said:


> 1. Purple worms. (running primer. I'll make my helper cut them out and redo it.)
> 2. Solder drips
> 3. Hand bent supply tubes. (Don't be cheap and go buy a bender) I have to post a picture of one this kid at our shop did.
> 4. Putting offset flanges on at trim time.
> ...


wow. hehe that guy worked to hard on that one.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

My biggest peeve I guess would be people rigging stuff because they are too lazy to go get the right part. I was at a mainline the other day were someone put in one of those expandable plugs because the threads are shot and the plug he had was for end of pipe and was too small for the threaded fitting so the guy just caked it with bowl wax..


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Plumber Jim said:


> My biggest peeve I guess would be people rigging stuff because they are too lazy to go get the right part. I was at a mainline the other day were someone put in one of those expandable plugs because the threads are shot and the plug he had was for end of pipe and was too small for the threaded fitting so the guy just caked it with bowl wax..


 
I ran into a main line where they guy used an expansion plug and put tape on the rubber to thicken it up. The other guy told the home owner that it is real hard to find 3" brass plugs anymore. After I was done I ran my 3" tap to clear the threads and installed a nice shiny new brass plug. The home owner was amazed I had one on the truck. I showed him I have dozens of them. I would of rather seen a lead-fit-all on there than the rigged expansion plug.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

AAV's

CSST

PEX

Flex Supplies

Plastic Toilet Flanges, Plastic Closet bolts

Plastic J hangers

Compression Stops

Flex lines on water heaters

Wrong side up san tees on vent piping

Crooked pipes

And finally the last journeyman to tell me "can't see it from my house" I gave the opportunity to try.

My biggest rant though is plumbers who are blind to the damage being done to the trade by the industry and worse yet the plumbers themselves as we strive to find easier, faster and cheaper ways to get the job done. If you don't have the time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find the time to do it all over again? This notion that everything has to be quick fitting, no tools required and no experiance necessary is KILLING us. There is very little pride in workmanship anymore. Slinging plastic all over a basement and convincing yourself that it looks good, or at least good enough is insanity. And then you sit and wonder why the phone ain't ringing. It ain't ringing because Joe Hack doesn't need your skill any more. He can go on down the the Cheepo-Deepot and pick up a roll of pex and a handfull of sharkbites and SCREW YOU! Hell, he can even get a gas boiler or water heater along with all the crapo to hook it up all by himself. Even drain cleaning takes a hit because the Deepot sells snakes and chemicals and all kinds of stuff designed to bypass your abilities. Meanwhile the PHHC sits, sucking down martini's while the manufacturers line their pockets in exchange for the whole sale slaughter of the licensed plumber. The only way this will stop is if WE stop it. Stop selling and installing crap. Stop this "get in, get out" mentality. stay informed and lean on your local PHCC and plumbers board before it's too damn late.

Where's my soap box, Who took my damned soap box?


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> My biggest rant though is plumbers who are blind to the damage being done to the trade by the industry and worse yet the plumbers themselves as we strive to find easier, faster and cheaper ways to get the job done. If you don't have the time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find the time to do it all over again? This notion that everything has to be quick fitting, no tools required and no experiance necessary is KILLING us. There is very little pride in workmanship anymore. Slinging plastic all over a basement and convincing yourself that it looks good, or at least good enough is insanity. And then you sit and wonder why the phone ain't ringing. It ain't ringing because Joe Hack doesn't need your skill any more. He can go on down the the Cheepo-Deepot and pick up a roll of pex and a handfull of sharkbites and SCREW YOU! Hell, he can even get a gas boiler or water heater along with all the crapo to hook it up all by himself. Even drain cleaning takes a hit because the Deepot sells snakes and chemicals and all kinds of stuff designed to bypass your abilities. Meanwhile the PHHC sits, sucking down martini's while the manufacturers line their pockets in exchange for the whole sale slaughter of the licensed plumber. The only way this will stop is if WE stop it. Stop selling and installing crap. Stop this "get in, get out" mentality. stay informed and lean on your local PHCC and plumbers board before it's too damn late.
> 
> Where's my soap box, Who took my damned soap box?


NH Master I agree with you 100%... I posted this a while back in the other forum but it fits with taking the cheap way to do things. Its from an old 1917 plumbing code book for the State of Ohio.

*Plumbing*​_Definition_ 
Plumbing is the art of installing in buildings the pipes, fixtures and other apparatus for introducing the water supply and removing liquid and water-carried wastes. It must be installed in accordance with scientific principles and natural laws.​_Relation to Health_ 
The value of plumbing to public health is important because it removes human wastes from the immediate neighborhood of buildings. Plumbing also furnishes the opportunity for liberal consumption and use of pure wholesome water for drinking, bathing, culinary and other domestic purposes.​_Inferior Stops, Valves and Fixtures_ 
A cheap grade of stop and waste cocks, valves and fixtures often used in the installation is a false economy and expensive practice. inconvenience, annoyance, waste of water and continual repairs are the resulting penalties from this practice.​_Low First Cost Mistaken Economy_ 
A second class plumbing and drainage system in cost will prove itself a second class system. A year or so in service will reveal the inefficiency of the fixture, device or construction. Discomfort, inconvenience, cost of repairs, foul odors, insanitary and unhealthful conditions are the resulting penalties which the unfortunate occupant must pay.​


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

beautiful :thumbup:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Well, you and I would work well together.
1. Most of my drain pipes are unlevel...........come to think of it, so are my water lines (pex)

2. I have seen to many joints that leaked because the guy was to worried about putting to much primer, glue, solder on them and ended up putting to little. I say: "Durability first, esthetics second". I make it a point to always use lots of primer and to as solder until I start seeing a raised bead.

3. I agree 100%, no arguments there.

4. I agree, to a point. I don't obsess about it though unless it's going to visible to the final user.



Plumberman said:


> 1) Unlevel piping
> 2) Purple primer slung all over piping instead of inside fitting where it should be
> 3) Flexible tailpieces under KS
> 4) Not wiping solder joints for clean looking joints
> ...


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## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

How about this one - people who primer all their fittings in advance! You technically should prime them within 30 seconds to a minute of when you want to glue and the primer should be dry to the point it is only "tacky." Then the guys who try and return the pre-primered fittings to the wholesaler.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> AAV's
> 
> My biggest rant though is plumbers who are blind to the damage being done to the trade by the industry and worse yet the plumbers themselves as we strive to find easier, faster and cheaper ways to get the job done. If you don't have the time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find the time to do it all over again? This notion that everything has to be quick fitting, no tools required and no experiance necessary is KILLING us. There is very little pride in workmanship anymore. Slinging plastic all over a basement and convincing yourself that it looks good, or at least good enough is insanity. And then you sit and wonder why the phone ain't ringing. It ain't ringing because Joe Hack doesn't need your skill any more. He can go on down the the Cheepo-Deepot and pick up a roll of pex and a handfull of sharkbites and SCREW YOU! Hell, he can even get a gas boiler or water heater along with all the crapo to hook it up all by himself. Even drain cleaning takes a hit because the Deepot sells snakes and chemicals and all kinds of stuff designed to bypass your abilities. Meanwhile the PHHC sits, sucking down martini's while the manufacturers line their pockets in exchange for the whole sale slaughter of the licensed plumber. The only way this will stop is if WE stop it. Stop selling and installing crap. Stop this "get in, get out" mentality. stay informed and lean on your local PHCC and plumbers board before it's too damn late.
> 
> Where's my soap box, Who took my damned soap box?


 
What do you propose --government controls?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I'm thinking a plumbing gestapo :thumbsup:

Hey, do you think we can all get a bail out? Joe the Plumber, you have connections. :thumbsup:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I'm thinking a plumbing gestapo :thumbsup:
> 
> Hey, do you think we can all get a bail out? Joe the Plumber, you have connections. :thumbsup:


You got me.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I don't care for hacks that throw it in fast and cheap. It's either plumb or it isn't. I get a shiver when I here "It's between the lines" . Do it right the first time. correctly and beautifully. 

Have a good day. I hear my boat beckoning.


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## Hyper Piper (Nov 29, 2008)

Not bedding the pipe properly when installing underground.

Lazyness.


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## pcplumber (Feb 10, 2009)

*Using ball valve and 1/4 turn stops*

really bothers me. I have to say something every time. Yes, we went through an entire thread about ball valves and I'm still not over it.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

How about plumbing to code? How about doing things right the first time even if you have to run for materials and not take a short cut using crap materials? Nothing bothers me more than some dumb sh*t plumber who is too lazy to go get the right materials and takes HACK short cuts just because he is too lazy to run for the correct parts!


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I ALWAYS use ballvalves and 1/4 turn stops.



pcplumber said:


> really bothers me. I have to say something every time. Yes, we went through an entire thread about ball valves and I'm still not over it.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Protech said:


> I ALWAYS use ballvalves and 1/4 turn stops.


 I install Gate valves on the jobs that the customer got under my skin. I do happen to carry a few dozen gate valves. Granted they are older than me but still brand new. Once in a while I have no choice its what the village tells me they want at the meter.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

What? Like that?:whistling2:



Plumberman said:


> 1) Unlevel piping
> *2) Purple primer slung all over piping instead of inside fitting where it should be*
> 3) Flexible tailpieces under KS
> 4) Not wiping solder joints for clean looking joints
> ...


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

Right on way to get rid of lots of unused fittings!


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Protech said:


> What? Like that?:whistling2:


 
No not like that. That is clean. I have seen primer run down pipe so far away from the fitting it looked like Barney hocked a loogie


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Protech said:


> I ALWAYS use ballvalves and 1/4 turn stops.


Im with Protech. When Im putting in a valve its gonna be a ball valve. Gate valves suck. Hope when your closing a gate down here that it doesnt break, and pray it will give a positive shut off. 
1/4 angle stops are the way to go as well.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

+1 i never use gate valves either.


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

the only times that i will use a gate is in really tight spots lke a isolation valve to fixture where the handle on the ball valve wont swing open and closed fully even if i trim it down......


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> People wiping hot solder joints (makes for a bad joint even if it looks cleaner.)


could you elabrolate on this if i get a drip i gingerly wipe it smooth with my gloves i never felt i weakend the joint..


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I knock a tit of solder off with the tip of the roll.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Plumbworker said:


> could you elabrolate on this if i get a drip i gingerly wipe it smooth with my gloves i never felt i weakend the joint..


If you ever get a certification for soft soldering the joint has to be flawless They do not want the solder disturbed by having it wiped, also they do not want to see solder balls either. Other than that I know when I took my state test, they had on the quality of solder joints wiping = -5 points per joint and solder tits = -1 point. I asked the examiner about that he said wiping the joint makes it all pretty and all but it can introduce contaminates into it. Then I replied but I was taught to wipe them to get rid of the solder ball "tit" and make it look clean. Of course the reply is just because you where taught that way and your sponsor was taught that way and so on does not make it right.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

Wiping the solder joint properly removes excess flux and you can eyeball the joint after wiping to make sure there are no flaws or gaps in the solder. Leaving raw solder around the joint won't tell you if it pulled in all the way around. If you can wipe it after you take the flame away, you know you got it hot enough.


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## leak1 (Mar 25, 2009)

i flick the drip off with my flux brush and wipe joint when cooled.


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

I usually wipe the joint so I can inspect it easier. I usually dont have a problem.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Wiping the joint clean after it has cooled down is a must, but not while the solder is still molten. Wiping it or brushing it with flux while the solder is molten can prematurely cool the joint as well as add contaminants to the the solder.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

The folloing is from Copper.org The bold and underline is added by me.

It is this lack of understanding that can develop into poor installation techniques and lead to poor or faulty joints. Investigations into the common causes of joint failures revealed several factors contributing to faulty joints, including: 

Improper joint preparation prior to soldering.
Lack of proper support and/or hanging during soldering or brazing.
Improper heat control and heat distribution through the entire joining process.
Improper application of solder or brazing filler metal to the joint.
Inadequate amount of filler metal applied to the joint.
*Sudden shock cooling and/or wiping the molten filler metal following soldering or brazing*.
Pre-tinning of joints prior to assembly and soldering.


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Sudden shock? hell, I am known to dump fittings into a bucket of water after I solder them. Never had a failed joint yet.


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## leak1 (Mar 25, 2009)

me too bill!


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

35 years, doing it all wrong 

I'm a compulsive wiper.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> 35 years, doing it all wrong
> 
> I'm a compulsive wiper.


 I was too, till I took my state test. Then I did some research and learned that 99% of us plumbers are making that mistake. When I end up with a solder ball, I still fight the urge to wipe it clean. I do like my solder joints to look perfect.


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## Double-A (Aug 17, 2008)

Associated Plum said:


> Since when does a PRV (Pressure Reducing Valve) have a blow off or are you talking about a RPZ (Reduced Pressure Zone Backflow Preventer)?


Pressure Relief Valve, perhaps?


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## MT Plumber (May 9, 2009)

For the solder joints - it's the shock / movement right as the solder is going from liquid to solid. It does something funky to the metal, it crystalizes (?) and is a weak "cold solder" joint. You can wipe all you want, as long as the solder in the joint is still molten. Molten is molten, doesn't matter how molten. 

Contaminant is a good guess, but that would have to be one grimy glove! Since we're not talking about a weld where atmospheric contamination is being held out by the gas shield, we're soldering, I'd have to say contamination is a non-issue.

I've wiped joints for years, never a failure but I also stop any disturbance of the solder / joint before that solder is about to set up. If in doubt I hit it with the torch again to remelt it. 

I have had other plumber's work blow apart, under pressure, when I was working on the other side of valves that I had shut off. A 2" water line that blew apart was entertaining. Only 1/2 way soldered, a bigger risk I think to our trade than wiping a joint.


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## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

Anything is better than the guy, who in my pre-apprenticeship course, chose not to read the chapter on soldering the day before we were taught soldering in the shop. He was getting so frustrated that "it wasn't working" as he was melting the solder directly with his torch and dripping it on the joint. LOL.


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