# Here we go again! Please help!



## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

I'm having an issue with a CO (condo owner) and would appreciate any feedback from yous guys. I replaced 1- 2 handle shower and 1- 3 handle tub/sh faucet with 1 handle Moen Posi- Temps about a year ago. 2 weeks after that I replaced her leaking 30 galllon EWH with a Rheem. Shortly there after she complained that hot water was only lasting 10 min at shower. Figured it was water re-stricter I removed at her request. Put it back turned up both T-stats n left. She calls again same problem. I check water heater and everything checks out okay. Ran full hot water at kitchen for a good 30 minutes WH worked like it should. Aerator is 2.2 GPM and shower head is 2.5 GPM. Of course shower is hot/cold mixed. I'm scheduled to go back and will of course this time run the shower and time it. Could she be blowing through that much hot water and why? Thanks! Oh, and I've done the same work in probably 50 other units over the past several years with no similar complaints.


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

Sounds like a bad lower element/tstat to me. Or you dropped the dip tube on the water heater.


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## 100 Watt (Aug 11, 2011)

2nd the dip tube issue. Actually had a tank that didn't even have one in it once. Now I always check for them when installing a new heater.

30 gallon water heater isn't much hot water. I think a 30 gallon heater actually only hold @ 20 gallons. 

Make sure no one has used any hot water for a couple hours. Take a 5 gallon bucket in and fill it in the tub with hot only water. It'll mix of course but you should still be able to fill it @ 6 times. Most of the time the people are just running laundry and doing dishes or taking marathon showers then running out. 

Good luck


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Recovery rate on a 30 is terrible.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

100 Watt said:


> 2nd the dip tube issue. Actually had a tank that didn't even have one in it once. Now I always check for them when installing a new heater.
> 
> I guess whats throwing me off is would she still get very hot water for 30 min at kitchen if it were the DT. I don't mind checking the DT its just under the ac unit and difficult to get to. Thanks fer yer input!


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

If the thermostats check out good and neither of the elements is burned up , its not unrealistic for her to burn through 30 gallons of hot water between a washer,dishwasher and shower. I won't install a 30 gallon electric in a house like 100 watt said you dont get thirty gallons out of a 30 gallon heater by the time the cold mixes in . You need at least a 50 gallon electric just to keep up.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

This might be a lil stupid but, is the temp adjustment dial behind the handle in the shower valve turned all the way up? Cause the handle should be able to go to the 9:00 position like this-


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

89plumbum said:


> 100 Watt said:
> 
> 
> > 2nd the dip tube issue. Actually had a tank that didn't even have one in it once. Now I always check for them when installing a new heater.
> ...


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## HOMER (Jun 5, 2011)

check the limit stop on the posi temp ass'y to provide full hot water.


may try replacing the posi temp cartridge.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

HOMER said:


> check the limit stop on the posi temp ass'y to provide full hot water.
> 
> may try replacing the cartridge.


That's exactly right, refer to my pic above


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

With the limit stop improperly adjusted, you'll never get fully hot water. If she's getting hot water for a short period of time, my bet is on the lower element/tstat. Also check to see if the lower t-stat is actually touching the tank.

At most, from a 30 gallon water heater you'll get 24 gallons of hot water (80% efficiency X 30 gallons). If she's taking a really hot shower, she'll burn through that in a short period of time.

Also, never turn the t-stat over 120°F without a mixing valve. It's in the code. You can show the H.O. how to do it, but you can't do it.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

HOMER said:


> check the limit stop on the posi temp ass'y to provide full hot water.
> 
> 
> may try replacing the posi temp cartridge.


She's actually getting really hot water. Its just not lasting according to her.:wallbash: She said she does'nt even turn the handle all the way around (i checked the limit stop). I guess I'll see if she's exaggerating when I time it myself.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Actually with the temp limit stop improperly adjusted, you will get hot water for around 10 mins(assuming it's not improperly adjusted to bad) but as hot water is used from the tank the water will start getting cold and since the handle can't be turned anymore the water will just keep getting colder and colder as time progresses. 
With the temp limit stop adjusted right,(refer to pic)you will get whatever the water temp is coming out of the heater, at the shower head.


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

Mississippiplum said:


> Actually with the temp limit stop improperly adjusted, you will get hot water for around 10 mins(assuming it's not improperly adjusted to bad) but as hot water is used from the tank the water will start getting cold and since the handle can't be turned anymore the water will just keep getting colder and colder as time progresses.
> With the temp limit stop adjusted right,(refer to pic)you will get whatever the water temp is coming out of the heater, at the shower head.


As the water coming out of the tank gets cold, it doesn't matter now high you turn the temperature on the shower valve, the tank is only going to put out water at a certain temperature, and it will get colder as you continue to use it. If you have the shower valve adjusted lower than the max temperature, you'll actually get warmer water for longer, since you're using a mixture of hot & cold.

Check it, but the hot stop isn't the problem here.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

hroark2112 said:


> As the water coming out of the tank gets cold, it doesn't matter now high you turn the temperature on the shower valve, the tank is only going to put out water at a certain temperature, and it will get colder as you continue to use it. If you have the shower valve adjusted lower than the max temperature, you'll actually get warmer water for longer, since you're using a mixture of hot & cold.
> 
> Check it, but the hot stop isn't the problem here.


Not trying to argue here, but also when you are using tempered water, the temp of the hot water will decrease as time goes on, so to compensate you turn the knob farther left to get that ideal temp again, well with the stop improperly adjusted the knob will stop before getting to full hot, meaning you wont beable to take a very long shower. 

Again not trying to argue with you.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Installing a tempering valve on the HW tank set to 120 and dialing up the temps on the elements to 140 is about the only way you're going to get a decent amount of time in the shower with a 30 gallon tank.

I've run into few jobs with space limitations (height issues, not footprint issues) where I had to install 2 parallel 30 gallon lowboys.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Mississippiplum said:


> Not trying to argue here, but also when you are using tempered water, the temp of the hot water will decrease as time goes on, so to compensate you turn the knob farther left to get that ideal temp again, well with the stop improperly adjusted the knob will stop before getting to full hot, meaning you wont beable to take a very long shower.
> 
> Again not trying to argue with you.


 Installing a tempering valve with integral check valves should alleviate the bleed in and incipient temperature variation -- You may experience a drop in volume as the tank tries to recover, but the temp should remain consistent.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

the formula for determining how much of the shower water is hot is:

(Mixed temp - cold temp) divided by (hot temp- cold temp)

That assumes she's honest about her showering temp.

One you know that, you can determine how much of that 2.5 gpm is hot.



Lets assume it's 70%. That means 1.75 gpm is coming from the water heater. 

if you use the 80% rule on a water heater (I prefer 70%) that's 24 gallon.

24/ 1.75 equals 13.71 minutes. If you use 70% it's even shorter.


Take some temperatures and time a fill of a five gallon bucket with the shower head. Do the math. That's the only way you'll know if the heater is performing correctly.


Good luck.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

I installed a 30 gal heater in a shed in MS. To fill a WM and it does a darn good job, but of course that's a little bit different. 

A 30 gallon is extremely small for a house though. I live off a 6 gallon (either 6 or 10 can't remember) wh when I vist in MS, it isn't too bad, just have to temper the water down alot. (RV camper btw) 



Worse comes worst you might have to switch the shower head, if they even make anything with a lower flow.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Colgar said:


> the formula for determining how much of the shower water is hot is:
> 
> (Mixed temp - cold temp) divided by (hot temp- cold temp)
> 
> ...


+1 for taking out the guess work. Use Colgar's formula to determine specifically how many gallons of hot water you are getting and for how long. After you've done that, the solution will stare you in the face. If your supply water is getting colder because of the season, that will make a HUGE difference. The 30 gal tank might have been more than adequate in July.

You will likely find she is exaggerating the time a bit and that the shower head is giving a bit more water than it should after you messed with the water saver. It's all guesses until you do the math.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

You have a 30 gallon water heater. Check the watts on the element. Posi- temp valve delivers 2.5 gallons a minute do the math. 2.5 gallons for ten minutes equals 25 gallons and you are replenishing the heater with cold water dropping the water temperature more. Keep in mind the difference with the water temperature entering the unit. Water in Sarasota is normally 76 degrees however when the weather gets cold the water entering the unit and heater also drops creating a problem with temperature rise. 3500 watt elements will not keep up with demand to reheat the water. You get roughly 7 gallons of hot water per 1 thousand watts.

You could turn up the temperature in the heater however you can create a situation where someone can be burnt in less than 4 seconds. Install a larger heater to deliver sufficient hot water.


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## grandpa (Jul 13, 2008)

I have a hard time believing the 30 minutes from the faucet. The kitchen aerator may be 1.5 gpm. even that, with the 70% rule you wouldn't get anywhere near 30 minutes.


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## studmaster1 (Dec 10, 2011)

30 gal. electric only produces 21 gal. of hot water. 70% efficiency. Be careful turning up the temp. she could burn herself and sue you.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

studmaster1 said:


> 30 gal. electric only produces 21 gal. of hot water. 70% efficiency. Be careful turning up the temp. she could burn herself and sue you.


Install a tempering valve and set to 120 like others mentioned


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

grandpa said:


> I have a hard time believing the 30 minutes from the faucet. The kitchen aerator may be 1.5 gpm. even that, with the 70% rule you wouldn't get anywhere near 30 minutes.


Grampa, I'm probably the one guilty of exaggerating. It did run for 25 min hot and when the upper t-stat kicked on I did shut the faucet off. Thanks.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

As in your first post you did this about a year ago and she complained right away. :blink: Why is this still going on? Did you blow her off for a year? :whistling2:


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

On that note I just figured your problem out. This started a year ago and one year later she's complaining again. Incoming cold water temp has lowered again due to the season. :thumbup:


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Pipe Rat said:


> As in your first post you did this about a year ago and she complained right away. :blink: Why is this still going on? Did you blow her off for a year? :whistling2:


 Not at all Mr. Rat. After my 2nd call back I told her to let me know if things continued. She never called. She caught me outside fixing a leak for the condo association 7 months later and told me about it. And here we are.:yes:


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## HOMER (Jun 5, 2011)

> I'm having an issue with a CO (condo owner) and would appreciate any feedback from yous guys. I replaced 1- 2 handle shower and 1- 3 handle tub/sh faucet with 1 handle Moen Posi- Temps about a year ago. 2 weeks after that I replaced her leaking 30 galllon EWH with a Rheem. Shortly there after she complained that hot water was only lasting 10 min at shower. Figured it was water re-stricter I removed at her request. Put it back turned up both T-stats n left. She calls again same problem. I check water heater and everything checks out okay. Ran full hot water at kitchen for a good 30 minutes WH worked like it should. Aerator is 2.2 GPM and shower head is 2.5 GPM. Of course shower is hot/cold mixed. I'm scheduled to go back and will of course this time run the shower and time it. Could she be blowing through that much hot water and why? Thanks! Oh, and I've done the same work in probably 50 other units over the past several years with no similar complaints.


 








was the restrictor you removed from the shower head ?


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Yes but he "Put it back" :whistling2:

"I'm having an issue with a CO (condo owner) and would appreciate any feedback from yous guys. I replaced 1- 2 handle shower and 1- 3 handle tub/sh faucet with 1 handle Moen Posi- Temps about a year ago. 2 weeks after that I replaced her leaking 30 galllon EWH with a Rheem. Shortly there after she complained that hot water was only lasting 10 min at shower. Figured it was water re-stricter I removed at her request. Put it back turned up both T-stats n left. She calls again same problem. I check water heater and everything checks out okay. Ran full hot water at kitchen for a good 30 minutes WH worked like it should. Aerator is 2.2 GPM and shower head is 2.5 GPM. Of course shower is hot/cold mixed. I'm scheduled to go back and will of course this time run the shower and time it. Could she be blowing through that much hot water and why? Thanks! Oh, and I've done the same work in probably 50 other units over the past several years with no similar complaints."


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

I never like to set the valves to full temp but I do run the water until it's about right to me. Then adjust slightly higher so ho can bump it higher as the shower goes along if needed. If ho want's it set to full hot I disclaim it, then document on invoice and have them sign it.
On a side note, some closets (more so older houses or condo's) are to small to get anything bigger than 30's inside because of door jams etc.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

mpsllc said:


> I never like to set the valves to full temp but I do run the water until it's about right to me. Then adjust slightly higher so ho can bump it higher as the shower goes along if needed. If ho want's it set to full hot I disclaim it, then document on invoice and have them sign it.
> On a side note, some closets (more so older houses or condo's) are to small to get anything bigger than 30's inside because of door jams etc.


So, you knowingly break the law, then write it down?:no: Lawyer would have a filed day with that. "Poor old Mrs Jones got scalded, 2nd degree burns. She couldn't tell that the water was too hot, due to her age. The plumber wrote it down, on his disclaimer, that it was too hot, though. "

Guilty. 

Don't take it the wrong way ^ . 

Advise them against it, set it where thay want it, but don't document it. Then, when you are in the witness chair, you could at least lie.


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## studmaster1 (Dec 10, 2011)

Mississippiplum said:


> Install a tempering valve and set to 120 like others mentioned


 Yeah my bad, I should probably read what others wrote before I throw my 2 cents in. I did like Mr. Hilliards response.


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

RealLivePlumber said:


> So, you knowingly break the law, then write it down?:no: Lawyer would have a filed day with that. "Poor old Mrs Jones got scalded, 2nd degree burns. She couldn't tell that the water was too hot, due to her age. The plumber wrote it down, on his disclaimer, that it was too hot, though. "
> 
> Guilty.
> 
> ...


I don,t tecall seeing anytging in the code about valve setting limits.

If the tstats r set correctly, the water won,t get any hotter than what the wh puts out


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

beachplumber said:


> I don,t tecall seeing anytging in the code about valve setting limits.
> 
> If the tstats r set correctly, the water won,t get any hotter than what the wh puts out


 




My code states that W/H cannot be hotter than 120 degrees F. And bidets cannot be hotter than 110 degrees F.


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

I think u r mis reading tp

He was not talking about the wh in that post


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

beachplumber said:


> I don,t tecall seeing anytging in the code about valve setting limits.....


IPC 2009 - Section 424.3


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Right, I meant to type showers; the shw. can't be hotter than 120 degrees F.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Colgar said:


> the formula for determining how much of the shower water is hot is:
> 
> (Mixed temp - cold temp) divided by (hot temp- cold temp)
> 
> ...


Went back to HO today and followed Colgars advice. According to the temperatures I took with an infrared thermometer and applying the formula she should be getting around 13.1 minutes of hot water. I also did fill 6- 5 gallon buckets with water at a temp of 100 degrees before the temp started to fall. She also was losing about 2 gallons from a handheld that constantly dripped.(i did'nt notice before) I have the same set up at home and did the same test and the results were almost identical. She seemed pretty convinced that everything was working properly. Thanks to all you guys for sharing your wisdom and great experience.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> IPC 2009 - Section 424.3


How many plumbers run around taking shower temps?
I'm going for the above mentioned. 120 degrees is what it will be from here out. What they do after I leave is up to them...


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

mpsllc said:


> How many plumbers run around taking shower temps?
> 
> 
> Just one that I know of.


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## sidekick (Nov 29, 2011)

*cartridge*

Try removiung the cartridge if your talking about a isloated issue you may have a cross connection that is happen all post are giving good ideas.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

mpsllc said:


> How many plumbers run around taking shower temps?


 I check the temps on pretty much every thermostatic tub/shower valve I install to be certain that the temperature actually reflects the temperature shown on the dial.

If it's a single valve I use a digital meat thermometer -- If it's multiple valves on a trim-out I break out my Fluke multi-meter.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

89plumbum said:


> mpsllc said:
> 
> 
> > How many plumbers run around taking shower temps?
> ...


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> Not near enough. That's for sure. But it is getting more common. I think the 2 million dollar hot coffee law suit against McD's was an eye opener.


 Most of the tub/shower valves I install are thermostatic mixing valves with separate volume controls.

I've yet to install one that was correctly set at the time of its manufacture.


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