# Pipe liner vs roots?



## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

So question, has anyone seen where a liner over a root intrusion either with pipe patch or regular CIPP has failed against the root intrusion?

If you did see a failure, do you have any details? Type of tree, proximity to tree, what kind of repair was it, how long until the failure happened, etc.

On the opposite side, anyone have a success story of a CIPP or pipe patch against roots? Any details on the jobs?


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

If there is a failure it's probably due to not enough resin used. I know a guy who does pipe bursting and claims he's always bursting out liners because they have root intrusion. Of course he's never been able to show me any pictures of some he's done.


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## PPRI (Aug 27, 2013)

I've seen a couple but they were always due to improper wet out. One that stands out was an area almost 4' long that was sagging. That area had no epoxy in it at all, that's a major mistake on the installers part. So far the ones I've seen were due to improper installation.


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## mytxplumber (Jul 28, 2013)

I have seen one in the Dallas area. It appeared to be from a bad wet out it was splotchy and looked to not be bonded in places. I ran a static test and camera for the homeowner that went back to the installer. This was around 1999 it stopped me from buying a liner system until I did more research. At the time I was looking into buying a system. 
It was kinda wild you could see where the root had pushed the liner out for about 4ft. I have not seen one sense then. I have seen some that did collapse that were not cured when the cal-tube was pulled. I have seen the most failures on epoxy system on the potable side. People are pissed having to pay for that again or to find out the warranty is not transferable to the new owner.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Improper wet out and seepage would be the main failure I could think of...

We did fix one of a competitors jobs where they left a major tap root in the pipe and lined over it causing a failure...

The tap root was recovered with areas that had been wet with resin...:laughing:

I anticipate a subpoena one day over that one...:laughing:


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

Besides improper wet out there is also gushing water leaks and flat spots that wipe out the resin, the flat spot should not be lined anyway so that one is an easy fix but gushing leaks through joints are harder to stop before lining. I have heard of a few ways, best one I have seen was pushing a 1/2" steel pipe down into the ground on top of the sewer then dispensing 1 part polyurethane foam to seal the joint or break, if any gets inside the pipe (and it does until it hardens) you have to snake or jet or Picote?" When you stop the flow you line the pipe.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

One thing that's always in the back of my mind is you clean some heavy roots from inside the pipe but that feeder which may already be HUGE is still growing outside of the pipe and as it grows bigger, could it start to push that pipe up or down eventually causing the pipe and liner in it to break. I guess that's a worst case and it could happen with any pipe whether it's been burst, lined or clay. Being a lined pipe it's going to look like the liner just failed and after the contractor they come.
That's why a 50 year warranty on liners scare me.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

sierra2000 said:


> One thing that's always in the back of my mind is you clean some heavy roots from inside the pipe but that feeder which may already be HUGE is still growing outside of the pipe and as it grows bigger, could it start to push that pipe up or down eventually causing the pipe and liner in it to break. I guess that's a worst case and it could happen with any pipe whether it's been burst, lined or clay. Being a lined pipe it's going to look like the liner just failed and after the contractor they come.
> That's why a 50 year warranty on liners scare me.


This was my concern as well! I actually did a root treatment after jetting on a residential house 7 months ago. Well they called yesterday l backed up and one of the spots at the ABS x VCP transition was f**ked. 

Here was 7 months ago after jetting and root treatment


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

And here was yesterday. You can see where the root regrowth really pushed up the pipe and made the crack worse. It's interesting to note though that no other spot had regrowth at all.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> This was my concern as well! I actually did a root treatment after jetting on a residential house 7 months ago. Well they called yesterday l backed up and one of the spots at the ABS x VCP transition was f**ked.
> 
> Here was 7 months ago after jetting and root treatment


That "ABS" looks more like Orangeburg pipe to me...

Anyway the fertilizer is leaking out of the pipe bad enough to really attract the roots so they are ready for a new line...


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

Redwood said:


> That "ABS" looks more like Orangeburg pipe to me...
> 
> Anyway the fertilizer is leaking out of the pipe bad enough to really attract the roots so they are ready for a new line...


No, ABS. House was built in '93. Although I can't rule out thinwall but there's no buckling anywhere. From the house to this spot (45') the line is perfect. Then this spot (at the sidewalk) then another 40' of clay under the street with a few spots that previously had roots but no signs of anything now. This line screams downhill at probably 3-3.5%. Customer is moving out of state in September so she's not prepared to do anything about it. I'll clean it up this week then She's at the mercy of the roots. She may go for a pipe patch buuuut, like Gear Junkie stated I wonder how well it would hold up with roots like this.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> No, ABS. House was built in '93. Although I can't rule out thinwall but there's no buckling anywhere. From the house to this spot (45') the line is perfect. Then this spot (at the sidewalk) then another 40' of clay under the street with a few spots that previously had roots but no signs of anything now. This line screams downhill at probably 3-3.5%. Customer is moving out of state in September so she's not prepared to do anything about it. I'll clean it up this week then She's at the mercy of the roots. She may go for a pipe patch buuuut, like Gear Junkie stated I wonder how well it would hold up with roots like this.


I think pipe patch would be fine on that joint...
But get it clean all the way...


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

Yea pipe patch is designed to actually adhere to the host pipe where lining it can ,or it might not.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Cuda said:


> Yea pipe patch is designed to actually adhere to the host pipe where lining it can ,or it might not.


Why doesn't the lining epoxy adhere to the host pipe? Is it just LMK brand that doesn't? 
I have samples that I've lined and cut in half and I can't pull it from the host pipe; or are we talking about two different things?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Pipe Patch has far more adhesion than a liner..

Yea a liner will stick in a much smaller percentage area than the Pipe Patch...

By design the liner is a one complete tube with adhesion along most of the way which will holds it in place.


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

And also force, pipe lining is 7lbs in the bladder (if I remember right) and we are 18-20 lbs. of air in the pipe patch packer so it is getting pushed out a bit harder against the host pipe, and I think the super special (expensive) pipe patch resin says it can cure in water.


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## Plumbducky (Jun 12, 2010)

Chad from Source One says it can cure in water.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Good to know. That brings me to pull in place, in which the epoxy is poured inside of the liner and doesn't get inverted so the resin isn't against the host pipe. Should I be concerned?
Sorry to take this off topic.


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

All the bends keep the pipe in place so unless it's straight down and straight should be fine. LMK sells orings that can be placed at each end that swell with water if I&E is a problem.


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> No, ABS. House was built in '93. Although I can't rule out thinwall but there's no buckling anywhere. From the house to this spot (45') the line is perfect. Then this spot (at the sidewalk) then another 40' of clay under the street with a few spots that previously had roots but no signs of anything now. This line screams downhill at probably 3-3.5%. Customer is moving out of state in September so she's not prepared to do anything about it. I'll clean it up this week then She's at the mercy of the roots. She may go for a pipe patch buuuut, like Gear Junkie stated I wonder how well it would hold up with roots like this.


My theory is the reason for the roots is due to water leaking out of the pipe and roots feeding on this. Once you stop the water from leaking out of the pipe roots shouldn't grow:thumbsup:

Problems I've personally have seen with liners were due to poor installation. I get calls all the time to go and repair closed liners or liners that didn't open all the way.

Just today we inspected one that didn't fully open at the end and was folded throughout the length of the pipe. Upon closer inspection I discovered that a 5" liner was installed inside the 4 and 6" sections of the pipe. I'll post the video for you guys.

I had another one where a 4" liner was installed in a 6" line so there was nothing holding the liner and roots grew under went all the way to the end of the liner and came back in. So really all the problems I've seen come from poor installation. I'll try and find some photos for you guys to see. I wonder what some people are thinking when installing these liners.


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## theplungerman (Oct 26, 2011)

The roots are first attracted to the condensation on the pipe, then after wetting their beak they continue there search by growing through a super super small crack at the joint. Then it's party on man.


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## theplungerman (Oct 26, 2011)

Great question Ben.


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## titaniumplumbr (Jun 11, 2014)

Wet out problems. That's why you re roll. Also if there is a big enough gap/crack in the pipe where roots are coming through pre lining sometimes upon inflation and cook out the liner can become compromised

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## titaniumplumbr (Jun 11, 2014)

We in the business have to come to the realization that lining isn't an end all fix all and like everything else can break down over time. Although usually it's sold as a last resort if someone doesn't want to destroy their floor , it's in a place that cannot be dug without great difficulty etc etc. we have to understand that the people that call have bad pipe and after a pipe starts to deteriorate especially ci it will continue to deteriorate until it's gone. Just like cancer. The only true fix is to dig it up and replace it. However most will take a 50 year fix over ripping up floors and walls.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

check it out!

https://flic.kr/p/sf4CAN


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

cjtheplumber said:


> check it out!
> 
> https://flic.kr/p/sf4CAN


Tip for viewer. Pick up your laptop and put on it's side lol

oh that's bad. What caused it? What's the cure?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Looks like a case study of what not to do when shooting a liner...


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