# Rinnai Sounds Sick



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

My clients Rinnai makes popping noises when it begins to heat. Is this excessive build-up inside the coils? It is an older model and I'm sure it's never been serviced. 

The noise only presents itself when cold.


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

like this?


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Pretty much. Actually that sounds more like my helper.


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

gas solenoid valve


----------



## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Titan Plumbing said:


> My clients Rinnai makes popping noises when it begins to heat. Is this excessive build-up inside the coils? It is an older model and I'm sure it's never been serviced.
> 
> The noise only presents itself when cold.


Popping sounds like it is boiling off moisture .


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Well that sounds about right...

A few pics of this horrible mess. This is bad, but the rest of the plumbing sucks worse, we re-piped the water and part of the drain.

We will be cleaning the heater up shortly.


----------



## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

I'd check for evidence of an improperly run vent.

We replaced a Paloma not too long ago that had rotted out due to excessive moisture/condensate.

They exceeded the recommended developed length and number of changes of direction when they ran the intake and exhaust.


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Widdershins said:


> I'd check for evidence of an improperly run vent.
> 
> We replaced a Paloma not too long ago that had rotted out due to excessive moisture/condensate.
> 
> They exceeded the recommended developed length and number of changes of direction when they ran the intake and exhaust.


The vent goes straight up and out. Less than 10 feet.


----------



## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

I don't see a condensation line coming from the top of the heater...did they not use a condensation collector boot?

If not...it's likely condensation dripping into the coils.


----------



## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

Does the popping noise stop or only does it once when firing? if it only does it once or twice it's just the gas solenoid as someone mentioned above, could also be the blower kicking on.

Holy sweet isolation kit batman!


----------



## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

johnlewismcleod said:


> I don't see a condensation line coming from the top of the heater...did they not use a condensation collector boot?
> 
> If not...it's likely condensation dripping into the coils.


None of the drains appear to be run.


----------



## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

I just noticed the size of the gas supply. That wouldn't fly here.

A flexible supply in my neck of the woods would have to be a full 7/8".


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

johnlewismcleod said:


> I don't see a condensation line coming from the top of the heater...did they not use a condensation collector boot?
> 
> If not...it's likely condensation dripping into the coils.


I wondered if it did require a condensate tee. The ones I've put in did.



504Plumber said:


> Does the popping noise stop or only does it once when firing? if it only does it once or twice it's just the gas solenoid as someone mentioned above, could also be the blower kicking on.
> 
> *Holy sweet isolation kit batman!*


You like that? I was like WTF is that?

Yes the noise occurs only when it's is cold and stops after that. And it's definitely not the blower, I hear the blower.



Widdershins said:


> I just noticed the size of the gas supply. That wouldn't fly here.
> 
> A flexible supply in my neck of the woods would have to be a full 7/8".


Yep Shins, I always use 7/8", too. I really think this whole job was ratted in.


----------



## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

How old is the unit? What company installed it? Is there a warranty still in effect? Is the contractor out of business? My boss would only want me to quote a complete replacement rather than fix that mess. Best of luck to you.


----------



## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Must be an older model, the few I have had the privilage to install had drain valves built in


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

JK949 said:


> How old is the unit? What company installed it? Is there a warranty still in effect? Is the contractor out of business? My boss would only want me to quote a complete replacement rather than fix that mess. Best of luck to you.


I'm not sure of the age, I think it may be an '02 model. I am going to quote a replacement for sure.


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Bill said:


> Must be an older model, the few I have had the privilage to install had drain valves built in


Every one I install, I put the isolation/drain kit on.


----------



## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Last one I installed got done about 7pm, thats when I realized the line from the tank type we removed was 1/2 inch line and the Rinnai required a 3/4 gas line. We hooked it up and to our surprise it worked rather well. BUT yes, we did call our gas fitter and he came out the next day and changed the lines to 3/4.


----------



## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

If it only does it at startup it is likely the gas solenoid opening and closing. You should hear the new rheem models igniting. It is possible that the heat exchanger is a little dirty and it has to cycle a couple of times to kick on, opening and closing the valve each time. Does this unit have a thermostat on it to check if it has thrown any error codes?


----------



## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Sounds like the gas valve opened and shut then opened and ran . High lockup ? Seen this on overpressurized supply on start up.


----------



## jc-htownplumber (Feb 29, 2012)

Celenoid I believe servo number 3


----------



## jc-htownplumber (Feb 29, 2012)

This is part of it but that's the whole thing you take out


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Do you replace it, clean it or what?


----------



## jc-htownplumber (Feb 29, 2012)

Call rinnai tell them you have checked replaced the vent done a descale cleaned the fins on the heat exchanger with air compressor and it needs a new gas Celenoid I believe it's the called it gas servo 3


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Thanks!


----------



## jc-htownplumber (Feb 29, 2012)

Let me know how it works out for you


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

I will, they want a circ system added. I'm afraid the unit is right at 10 yrs old and may be past it's useful life to be making all these changes and corrections. We'll see!


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Titan Plumbing said:


> I will, they want a circ system added. I'm afraid the unit is right at 10 yrs old and may be past it's useful life to be making all these changes and corrections. We'll see!


 
not at all past its useful life, fix the thing and sell them a Taco Dmand.

It should be a good payday for you :thumbsup:


----------



## jc-htownplumber (Feb 29, 2012)

Date should be posted on the left side of the unit


----------



## bizzybeeplumbin (Jul 19, 2011)

jc-htownplumber said:


> Date should be posted on the left side of the unit


Thats the mfg date, not the install date.

condensate drain is required for anything after 5' of venting. you ar going to have a bunch of acid in that heat exchanger, you can probably blow it out with a compressor, but dont breath it in. makes me cough really bad. that unit is the unit that required the condensate fitting before rinnai used to build the units with them already installed. even though its there, people still do not run a condensate. 

I personally would do that install over, I bet when you pull that unit and look down in the through the top to see the exchanger its in bad shape, surprised it isn't leaking already. no service kits, under sized gas flex makes the gas valve work harder. Sadly tankless will compensate to a point with an undersized gas line by adjusting the flow rate but it is harder on the gas valve.

Run a condensate on the new tankless, do a metlund on demand, with motion sensors, energy star rated. Best pump for tankless. 

This is a do over. :laughing:


----------



## bizzybeeplumbin (Jul 19, 2011)

jc-htownplumber said:


> This is part of it but that's the whole thing you take out




That's the gas manifold not the gas valve. all the solenoids are on the valve itself, connected tot he picture you posted.


You can put that unit into low and high fire to see if the noise gets worse. Just flip the dip switches, if you let me know the model number I can look it up. 7 and 8 works for the 2532 which was the most common unit installed 5-8 years ago.


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

I'm going there tomorrow. 

We are remodeling and I have a chance to run a circ line in the wall...From everything I'm reading, whether it a Taco thingy or a tank type circ system I think I need a circ line...Correct?

I'll gather all the info and try to record the sound it makes. One thing I do know is it does not make the sound except when it's first fired and cold, after that it doesn't make the loud noise.

Thanks for everyones willingness to help.


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Titan Plumbing said:


> I'm going there tomorrow.
> 
> We are remodeling and I have a chance to run a circ line in the wall...From everything I'm reading, whether it a Taco thingy or a tank type circ system I think I need a circ line...Correct?
> 
> Thanks for everyones willingness to help.




Incorrect, a taco dmand system doesn't get a recirculate line.


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

GP, I was reading where you can run a dedicated circ line on the Metlund system. Wouldn't this be a better option?


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Titan Plumbing said:


> GP, I was reading where you can run a dedicated circ line on the Metlund system. Wouldn't this be a better option?


Idk, I've never installed a Metlund System. 

If I have a recirculate line, I would install a small tank and circ through it.

The point of the taco dmand system is to get hot water quicker without a circ line, a retrofit.


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Thanks, that what I was thinking to do. The Metlund uses a Taco pump, BTW.


----------



## jc-htownplumber (Feb 29, 2012)

@buZzybee yea that's correct but rinnai sends the whole thing which at the bottom is the third or fourth Celenoid servo #3


----------



## jc-htownplumber (Feb 29, 2012)

Correction bizzybeeplumbin


----------



## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

GREENPLUM said:


> not at all past its useful life, fix the thing and sell them a Taco Dmand.
> 
> It should be a good payday for you :thumbsup:



Is that a posi pressure system?


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Okay, heres the deal. Spoke to the client this morning and the wife (gotta love 'em) is certain the heater has seen a better day.

So, with that said we will be replacing the heater and installing a circ system with a tank.


----------



## jc-htownplumber (Feb 29, 2012)

Wow well that's cool free tankless


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

You think it's really cool? It's been in place for 10 years and never serviced.


----------



## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Titan Plumbing said:


> You think it's really cool? It's been in place for 10 years and never serviced.



Just soak it in vinegar for 3 years and it will be good.


----------



## bizzybeeplumbin (Jul 19, 2011)

Something to think about when running the return on a hot water electric. When piped right, the customer will be using the 6 gallons of hot water in the electric before they get to the "tankless water" Remember to set the electric 5 degrees cooler then the tankless. You may need to install a thermowell off the electric to dial it in. If this is not done right or if the pump is undersized it will cause the electric heater to keep going and going and going. I just had to redo a system that was installed like this due to this issue. customer got a $500 electric bill. Dont use anything over a 6 gallon tank, and properly size the pump for the distance and the return nothing less then 3/4".

You can use a metlund with a conventional line, no problem. Use the sensor or push buttons instead of the timer. I have done this multiple times this way and with a centrally located sensor it works perfect. 

I also had no issues with a warranty and never installed the electric heater, which in my opinion is a waste. I hate electric water heaters and tankless, it defeats the purpose in my opinion.


----------



## bizzybeeplumbin (Jul 19, 2011)

Titan Plumbing said:


> You think it's really cool? It's been in place for 10 years and never serviced.


Like i said, with no service, no condensate tee, undersized gas flex, its got to go! rip it down when you get it, take it back to the shop, pull it apart. check the the top of the exchanger, post pics, I bet its in really bad shape. Look at the flow sensor and bypass, bet you can't even remove the inlet filter screen. If you have bad water, you will see why they need flushed every 1-1.5 yrs.

Then when you are done exploring the unit, take the copper exchanger and the brass and scrap them!!


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

I offered the Metlund to my client and they did not like the idea of the sensor, switch or remote.

My intention is to run a pump, tank and an aquastat. Do this sound correct?


----------



## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

bizzybeeplumbin said:


> Something to think about when running the return on a hot water electric. When piped right, the customer will be using the 6 gallons of hot water in the electric before they get to the "tankless water" Remember to set the electric 5 degrees cooler then the tankless. You may need to install a thermowell off the electric to dial it in. If this is not done right or if the pump is undersized it will cause the electric heater to keep going and going and going. I just had to redo a system that was installed like this due to this issue. customer got a $500 electric bill. Dont use anything over a 6 gallon tank, and properly size the pump for the distance and the return nothing less then 3/4".
> 
> You can use a metlund with a conventional line, no problem. Use the sensor or push buttons instead of the timer. I have done this multiple times this way and with a centrally located sensor it works perfect.
> 
> I also had no issues with a warranty and never installed the electric heater, which in my opinion is a waste. I hate electric water heaters and tankless, it defeats the purpose in my opinion.




Amazing that a 6 gal electric heater is almost the cost of a 40 gal gas. This tankless Phenonenom is a hard sell for me.


----------



## bizzybeeplumbin (Jul 19, 2011)

Titan Plumbing said:


> I offered the Metlund to my client and they did not like the idea of the sensor, switch or remote.
> 
> My intention is to run a pump, tank and an aquastat. Do this sound correct?


Yes, you can do it off a grundfoes. But do not use the comfort system. size it properly, us a timer instead of an aqua stat. aqua stats fail. Talk to Rinnai about their warranty on timers, I hear they are going to warranty them for 12 years. Noritz started it and Rinnai had to follow.


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

bizzybeeplumbin said:


> Yes, you can do it off a grundfoes. But do not use the comfort system. size it properly, us a timer instead of an aqua stat. aqua stats fail. Talk to Rinnai about their warranty on timers, I hear they are going to warranty them for 12 years. Noritz started it and Rinnai had to follow.


I asked the Rinnai Rep about the Aqua Stats yesterday and he said they were fine. :blink: I figured he would say this.

Excellent info, thanks. I'll be back with more questions later...:laughing:


----------



## bizzybeeplumbin (Jul 19, 2011)

Titan Plumbing said:


> I asked the Rinnai Rep about the Aqua Stats yesterday and he said they were fine. :blink: I figured he would say this.
> 
> Excellent info, thanks. I'll be back with more questions later...:laughing:


Yeah, I see them fail all the time. I have been an ASP for Rinnai and Noritz for a number of years. I have seen time and time again pumps that just kept going because the failed aqua stat. I have never seen a timer fail.


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Do I set it up just like a tank type circ system?


----------



## bizzybeeplumbin (Jul 19, 2011)

Titan Plumbing said:


> Do I set it up just like a tank type circ system?


 
You pipe in the hot and cold to the tankless. You take the return line in 3/4, from the furthest hot fixture, tie it in on the cold side of the tankless. Install a good quality spring or swing ck on the cold side so the pump does not push the hot water return into the cold line. Use your timer. Check with Rinnai on warranty with the timer, I don't think they ever printed their warranty with a timer and a recirc, but I know I heard talk about it because Noritz was offering a great warranty with a timer and circ and no electric tank.

Make sure you put a check valve on the cold, and an expansion tank on the system. I have seen no check valve and hot water in the cold. Don't use a cheap check valve becuase you will get calls about a cross connection. It is the number one cause of hot in the cold water.


----------

