# TnM and flat for a job



## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

So here's the deal a foreclosure house is getting redone by the new owners.... Who is my client and a pretty good one. Place is getting a new softener and redoing the install. No problem ad I gave him a flat rate on that aspect. The other task is to replace all the stops in the house. All the fixtures except one wc have been removed. I have changed out stops in 2 minutes and have spent up to an hour or so on the ones that really put up a fight. I'd like to give my client one number and be done with it however the potential for this to turn into a real pita is high as the water is really hard in this area. So given that do I just go TnM or flat on the whole thing. How do the flat rate guys bid something that can and probably will turn into more than just an hour or two of work?


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

I would personally just flat rate it. Charge him at a per stop rate. If you get a few hard ones you just bite the bullet. 9 time out of 10 you'll be out of there in no time so the odds are you'll be making a pretty good profit per stop. :yes:


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Flat price. If it goes well you make good money. If it doesn't then you make mediocre money. Especially since you know that area and the plumbing.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

I'm T&M but would flat rate a job like this for sure. If there are 13-15 stops in the house, I'd just figure 20-30 minutes for each one. You could more than likely do a master bath with 5 stops in less than an hour but if one stubborn one in a kitchen cabinet takes 45 minutes, you're covered.

I've always been curious about this same thing though. How the flat rate guys deal with the 1,000,000 things that are unexpected in the world of service work. When I worked for BF they were flat rate and expected all of us to make them money but nobody ever trained us on how to do it correctly or really explained to us what they wanted. It was super frustrating.









Paul


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Well I just gave him one flat rate number. I figured half a day for the softener and the other half for the stops and a few small things. My thinking is, if I can't do 10 stops in about 4 hours I shouldn't be doing any at all. I'm like Paul and still interested in how FR guys deal with things like this. To me it's simply overcharge in case of the worst. I'm not a fan of that kind of thinking but maybe that's why my bank account looks the way it looks


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

Tankless said:


> Well I just gave him one flat rate number. I figured half a day for the softener and the other half for the stops and a few small things. My thinking is, if I can't do 10 stops in about 4 hours I shouldn't be doing any at all. I'm like Paul and still interested in how FR guys deal with things like this. To me it's simply overcharge in case of the worst. I'm not a fan of that kind of thinking but maybe that's why my bank account looks the way it looks


To answer your flat rate question. Say I'm installing a toilet I tell the customer I'm installing your toilet for x amount. In the event that your shut off valve to your toilet doesn't turn off and it needs replacing it will be an additional x. Also there is the possibility that your toilet flange could be rotted out. If that is the case it will be an additional x amount. I tell them that these are rare occurrences but that those are possible scenarios.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

We done upfront pricing where I used to work, I hated it. Supposedly you give the price so they know what it will be, but if turns into more we added the tasks. So much for upfront, our ads spoke of no surprises yada yada. Yeah right the techs all knew how to beat the book. If my customers want an upfront price I give it, then I tell them I prefer to shoot from the hip and that they will generally come out cheaper. If they go for the upfront and I take longer than planned, I have to eat it right, by same token if I finish sooner I should get to win.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Looks like this thread is headed to another Time and materials vs. Flat Rate 
or
Profit vs. to much Profit 
or 
Fair vs. Gouging 
or 
Right vs. Wrong 
or 
Fair vs. Unfair


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## OleTom (Jun 17, 2008)

A good way is to write into the contract a flat rate but with exceptions for unseen problems then you kick into t+m 

Anytime you are remodeling you never really know whats in side the wall But if you pin your self down you will have to eat it.

I did a lot of work on the coast after the storm and that's the norm.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

*I need every customer I have*

My old boss says the book is more profitable and he's probably right as I know he is no fool. I get calls from his customers because they are tired of paying his prices. And I mean good customers. And I'm not even the cheapest in town, but they sure hate his prices as he is probably most expensive in town. Thing is I haven't been in business over 40 years with the massive goodwilll list he has. "Upfront" doesn't have to mean it's high,,, but probably is.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Making all kinds of sight unseen assumptions like readily accessible stops, fixtures out means sinks are out of the way too, existing stops are 5/8 compression on copper, normal drive time, water shutoff readily accessible and functioning, 2 full bath, laundry, & kitchen/DW/IM....

I would not initially plan on just the stops. I would also include new washing machine valves and anything else I could do to make this such a complete value that the customer would NEVER have a valve issue for a long long time.

So....I would check the WH ball valve and a main shutoff for the house too. Maybe even suggest leaving behind new stainless supplies attached to all the new valves. Then I would give an upfront price for the best value which is translated to the way to spend the least money by not having to call me back for that one valve you thought would be OK to leave alone.

Install new brass 1/4 turn stops & stainless supplies for all fixtures (10) - $450
Install new washing machine valves & stainless washer hoses - $195
Install new main emergency water shutoff valve on manifold under master lavatory - $285
Install new emergency water shutoff on water heater - $195
(these prices are for discussion purposes only and may not reflect the price to perform these tasks in any particular home or business).

Now the customer can decide from this menu how long they want it to be before they have to call a plumber out to work on ANY valve in the house.

I don't ever give an upfront with a T&M safety net. To me that defeats the purpose of having an upfront price. There may be contingencies based on visible conditions that would be noted on the proposal. These would lead to another price for that contingency but never default to T&M.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

tungsten plumb said:


> To answer your flat rate question. Say I'm installing a toilet I tell the customer I'm installing your toilet for x amount. In the event that your shut off valve to your toilet doesn't turn off and it needs replacing it will be an additional x. Also there is the possibility that your toilet flange could be rotted out. If that is the case it will be an additional x amount. I tell them that these are rare occurrences but that those are possible scenarios.


Ours is similar...except that I would not replace a toilet without planning on a new stop, supply, and bolts. The only unknown contingency would be the condition of the flange and it would be noted on the proposal.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Charge flat rate then get outfitted so it will go in your favor. Get a Safe T Kut ferrule cutter, reamer, tin snips, and your angle stop wrenches. Hit every compression stop's nut with P.Blaster first. No reason you can't knock these out if you've stacked the deck for your advantage. If you intend to wiggle the damn rings off with small channel locks, then I got nothing for you.


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> Ours is similar...except that I would not replace a toilet with planning on a new stop, supply, and bolts. The only unknown contingency would be the condition of the flange and it would be noted on the proposal.


You'd be surprised how often I've went to change a fixture and the angle stops didn't work and then you go outside and there's a old gate valve thats doesn't work either :furious:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

tungsten plumb said:


> You'd be surprised how often I've went to change a fixture and the angle stops didn't work and then you go outside and there's a old gate valve thats doesn't work either :furious:


Yeah...crap happens. But it is not the norm. We just suck it up and move on.


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## PlumberDave (Jan 4, 2009)

Flat rate is an Average. On average it takes 1 hour to secure the water to the building, walk out to the truck get your tools, 4 stops, 4 escutcheons, 4 risers, a drip pan and rags walk back in move all the crap out of the way and swap out stops and risers. Turn the water back on check all of your work clean up and reset all their crap write it up and get paid. Just an average I bill out for one hour and materials. But I wrote the bill before I began based on this average. $100 for the hour $64 for the parts. Flat rated $41 per stop plus Service Fee. The bad reputation comes from shops billing $250 an hour or $78.50 per stop.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

PlumberDave said:


> Flat rate is an Average. On average it takes 1 hour to secure the water to the building, walk out to the truck get your tools, 4 stops, 4 escutcheons, 4 risers, a drip pan and rags walk back in move all the crap out of the way and swap out stops and risers. Turn the water back on check all of your work clean up and reset all their crap write it up and get paid. Just an average I bill out for one hour and materials. But I wrote the bill before I began based on this average. $100 for the hour $64 for the parts. Flat rated $41 per stop plus Service Fee. The bad reputation comes from shops billing $250 an hour or $78.50 per stop.


Do you feel like you make more than if T&M?


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

tungsten plumb said:


> You'd be surprised how often I've went to change a fixture and the angle stops didn't work and then you go outside and there's a old gate valve thats doesn't work either :furious:


Sweet! One more thing to upsell!


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

I've worked for T&M shops that made a killing and I've worked for Flat Rate companies that made a killing. The only thing that matters is having good customer service, having a knowledge of what your doing, and having a truck that is stock, and showing up when you say you will. Treat your customer with respect and fairly, then they will gladly pay you. Plumbers aren't cheap. Everyone knows that, so go ahead and charge what you need too, and earn there business by earning there respect.


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## PlumberDave (Jan 4, 2009)

mpsllc said:


> Do you feel like you make more than if T&M?


If you play the system as "intended?" No it is an Average. The menu system is easy to manipulate in favor of higher profits, done on a regular basis resulting in shops charging $250.00+ an hour hiding it in the menu system. It is not a huge leap from $41.00 to $78.50 for a stop and riser if presented to the customer as a menu item and not listed as a 15min job with materials.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

PlumberDave said:


> ...The bad reputation comes from shops billing $250 an hour or $78.50 per stop...


I believe you to be mistaken Dave, or at least leaving out part of the issue. The reputation of flat rate pricing (that only SOME people view as bad) comes largely from T&M contractors that do not understand their own cost of doing business much less anyone else's. I say "some" because I know my customers don't seem to view knowing the price in advance as a bad thing.




PlumberDave said:


> The menu system is easy to manipulate in favor of higher profits, done on a regular basis resulting in shops charging $250.00+ an hour hiding it in the menu system. It is not a huge leap from $41.00 to $78.50 for a stop and riser if presented to the customer as a menu item and not listed as a 15min job with materials....


There is no right vs. wrong, good vs. evil, honest vs. dishonest, or hidden vs. open. It is apples and oranges. Crooks will be crooks no matter the method of pricing. Sure, it might be a 15 minute job but a T&M shop will charge for an hour. Is that honest? Ethical? Right? Well, as a former T&M shop I could make a solid case for why it is appropriate

It is much easier to manipulate T&M on the fly than FR. Just work slower.

Offering the choices with a predetermined price is empowering the customer, not a manipulating of numbers. It gives them the choice of which services they want right now, later, or even not at all.


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## KCplumber (Dec 31, 2009)

Menu's people, menu's. I need one, but I'm too busy/lazy to make one


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## PlumberDave (Jan 4, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> I believe you to be mistaken Dave, or at least leaving out part of the issue. The reputation of flat rate pricing (that only SOME people view as bad) comes largely from T&M contractors that do not understand their own cost of doing business much less anyone else's. I say "some" because I know my customers don't seem to view knowing the price in advance as a bad thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dude, I can not argue, Yep I agree. I am not dogging on either I prefer the menu system as it does get everything that can be out in the open up front. Well I think it's easier to hide markups in print over sitting on my butt at the job. Cant' fix stupid either way.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

PlumberDave said:


> Dude, I can not argue, Yep I agree. I am not dogging on either I prefer the menu system as it does get everything that can be out in the open up front. Well I think it's easier to hide markups in print over sitting on my butt at the job. Cant' fix stupid either way.


In a sense I agree with you as well. However, by giving a price in advance for a given task (or multiple tasks), it is not so much "hiding" markup as it is keeping focused on the only two things that really matter to a customer.

_"What is this going to cost me?_" and "_What am I getting for my money?"_ 

Everything else that a customer objects to, questions, or agrees to funnels directly and unavoidably to those two points.

Maybe I'm a bit defensive on the issue. When I hear terms like "hide" and "manipulate" it seems we're putting an unethical label on offering prices in advance. In reality, giving a price in advance (that you don't change if the going gets tough) for a completed service is the most ethical and honest way for a business to provide services.


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

Have any of you flat rate guys ever talked with your customers about how they feel about your pricing techniques? I sure hear about flat rate from my customers and it ain't good. I'll stick with T&M. Seems a little more like honest work for honest pay.

Worth noting is that I have 27 yrs in and my customers know I'm capable of getting the job done right and efficiently using my time. Thus, saving them $.

Where I can see flat rate working well, would be at a shop with a few employees with varying levels of experience. The customer never knows who is good and practiced at his job, or who is wet behind the ears and may not be an inefficient worker and probably shouldn't be out alone working in their house. Both of these employees would bill the same amount, right? I'm sure the customer appreciates knowing the price up front.

This all makes me think of all the employees out there who couldn't spell plumber yesterday and they are one now.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

gitnerdun said:


> Have any of you flat rate guys ever talked with your customers about how they feel about your pricing techniques?


Sure have...every time they ask how much is this going to cost. And our repeat customer base would indicate their approval.

Like I have said many times, it's not about the pricing method, it's about the value the client receives. I know plenty of shops like yours that accomplish that with T&M (and including me for the first 10 years). And I also know of plenty that get it done using upfront pricing (and me for the last 10 years).

There are a many reasons why we are a better company now because of offering upfront prices rather than T&M and none of the reasons have to do with covering for low quality work or inexperienced technicians.



gitnerdun said:


> ...This all makes me think of all the employees out there who couldn't spell plumber yesterday and they are one now.


Perception is a funny thing. That is exactly what I think of every time I think of a T&M plumber charging the going rate.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

gitnerdun said:


> Worth noting is that I have 27 yrs in and my customers know I'm capable of getting the job done right and efficiently using my time. Thus, saving them $.
> 
> 
> 
> This all makes me think of all the employees out there who couldn't spell plumber yesterday and they are one now.



So in all your years of plumbing you have never told the customer what the job was going to cost? 

Customer: So what is this gonna cost?

Super Plumber: I cannot say for certain what the final bill will be, but rest assured it will be the most fair. $$ is my labor rate, and I guarantee that I will work as efficiently as possible. 


While sharing with the customer what your labor, and whatever other fees, do you give them a break down on what you mark up is, and the cost of the item?



Its funny what this debate boils down to. Its even funnier to me that I am finally seeing it. :laughing:


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

So as "Super Plumber" I sure can give them an estimate, and do quite often. I give them an idea of what the cost will be and let them know if it goes smoothly it will cost them less, and if unforseen things happen it will cost more. To me this seems fair to both parties.

Yes, some of them want a difinitive price. They are made aware that it is difficult to plan for surprises and that price will reflect that situation by being higher. 

On repipes, for example, I will give the choice of fixed price or t&m. Most take the t&m. 

I've seen some of the flat rate prices and have trouble seeing how the average person can justify them.

I am a one man show with low overhead. I know the big shops gotta cover their butts, but not to the point that it looks so overpriced. 

Another thought, why do most of the flat rate guys seem to spend so much on advertising?

I know there is no winner here, just good info.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

*Crossbread pricing???*

Repipes, tub replacements and the like I give a written proposal on letter head stating what I include and exclude, warranty's etc. and have them sign before I begin. Alot of repairs of course many want to know and I tell them what I think it will be and most always come darn close if not less than verbally estimated. I stay in communication with them though. My experience with "upfront pricing" is pretty much the same in that if something cratered we added a labor task or whatever was needed to cover our time and material. And naturally kept the ho informed along the way. One upside I liked about "upfront" pricing is there wasn't material and labor broken down stating every item used and how long. We used to do it that way and many ho's tended to examine and question it. I'm T&M since on my own but kind of a mix of the 2 methods. I just don't give them a total breakdown, I write what I done, have the numbers and just need a check and signature. I almost never get questioned once at the billing stage.


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

mpsllc said:


> Repipes, tub replacements and the like I give a written proposal on letter head stating what I include and exclude, warranty's etc. and have them sign before I begin. Alot of repairs of course many want to know and I tell them what I think it will be and most always come darn close if not less than verbally estimated. I stay in communication with them though. My experience with "upfront pricing" is pretty much the same in that if something cratered we added a labor task or whatever was needed to cover our time and material. And naturally kept the ho informed along the way. One upside I liked about "upfront" pricing is there wasn't material and labor broken down stating every item used and how long. We used to do it that way and many ho's tended to examine and question it. I'm T&M since on my own but kind of a mix of the 2 methods. I just don't give them a total breakdown, I write what I done, have the numbers and just need a check and signature. I almost never get questioned once at the billing stage.


I would like to get away from the breakdown of materials and labor. People do want to know how much for this and that. Do they ask you how much items are?


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> Ours is similar...except that I would not replace a toilet without planning on a new stop, supply, and bolts. The only unknown contingency would be the condition of the flange and it would be noted on the proposal.


Are you saying that you always replace the stop, or just that you always figure a new stop into the price?


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

gitnerdun said:


> I would like to get away from the breakdown of materials and labor. People do want to know how much for this and that. Do they ask you how much items are?


You bet, I tell them how much the softener or sink faucet is. But I don't make a list on invoice showing all the parts and I dont put down 3.5 hrs labor because they look at watch and say "you just been here an hour". Hope that helps.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Airgap said:


> Are you saying that you always replace the stop, or just that you always figure a new stop into the price?


Not to butt in, we would figure a new stop and supply,unless the existing is a 1/4 turn in good condition, new supply nonetheless.

We are a flat rate shop that used to be T&M before I started, and has been explained to me, our state license board requires the customer to have a price agreed to before work begins, you cannot do that as T & M. 

Also, as was reported the T&M rewarded some employees who were slow or inefficient. As FR. I'm always on the lookout for tools and techniques to do things right but to beat the clock. If I have more tools and knowledge that get the job done better and faster than the next guy, I should make more money.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

We are not required to upfront in NM, sounds like you do things right though.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Airgap said:


> Are you saying that you always replace the stop, or just that you always figure a new stop into the price?


It would be a VERY rare case where we did not replace the stop and supply. Usually the stop is as old as the toilet anyway and since they seldom if ever are used, a new one is not a bad idea.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

gitnerdun said:


> I would like to get away from the breakdown of materials and labor. People do want to know how much for this and that. Do they ask you how much items are?


 
I list every item down to nuts a bolts. It takes a bit of time but, I believe it does two things. Even on a simple repair you have 5 or 6 things that you've used. It shows the customer exactly how involved your job is. When you list $250 in materials, it looks like you are marking up things like crazy, even if you aren't. If you have a list of twenty items, and their corresponding prices, it legitimizes your materails charge. 

The second thing is it increases the customer's perception of value. When they see more items, it lends itself to more work. It's a perception, more stuff=more work. In order to limit the amount of arguement you get from your prices, you need to maximize every opportunity to increase value in the eyes of your customer.

When I first started in business, I didn't know my costs and charged a good deal lower than what I currently do. I also didn't have a uniform, professional invoices and things like shoe covers. The customer got the same quality of work. Occasionally I've recieved questions on pricing, Like why does this cost so much? That almost never happens now, even with my bills being higher. 

The reason is I offer the appearance of a more professional company. Same work, higher price, less complaints. A complete material list is just a part of that apperance.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> It would be a VERY rare case where we did not replace the stop and supply. Usually the stop is as old as the toilet anyway and since they seldom if ever are used, a new one is not a bad idea.


It's the opposite for me. Very rare that I do change the stop. It is very rare that I don't change the supply though...I'd rather not take my chances with an old gate valve, as that's usually the main cutoff in my area....

A new stop is never a bad idea though...for a lot of reasons...:thumbsup:


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

3 hours in and I got the WM bibs and one stop done. And I made myself bloody 10 min after I got there. Nothing is going my way on this house.... Even the damn painters were whining about how this house is cursed. Shoulda went TnM.....I know better too. Damn


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Tankless said:


> 3 hours in and I got the WM bibs and one stop done. And I made myself bloody 10 min after I got there. Nothing is going my way on this house.... Even the damn painters were whining about how this house is cursed. Shoulda went TnM.....I know better too. Damn


From my original post:

Get a Safe T Kut ferrule cutter, reamer, tin snips, and your angle stop wrenches. 

Hit every compression stop's nut with P.Blaster first. 

No reason you can't knock these out if you've stacked the deck for your advantage. 

If you intend to wiggle the damn rings off with small channel locks, then I got nothing for you.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

JK949 said:


> From my original post:
> 
> Get a Safe T Kut ferrule cutter, reamer, tin snips, and your angle stop wrenches.
> 
> ...


 
Why would you assume that they are compression stops?

Maybe a real plumber did the original installation. Them things is real junk. 

I think its funny how people think an aerosol spray can is the cure all and end all. Last week I had a ho call me after he could not turn a 100 year old radiator angle stop off. He sprayed it every day for a month. 

I went there and it was already off:laughing: He was trying to regulate temp in a bedroom, 2 pipe hot water.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Tankless said:


> 3 hours in and I got the WM bibs and one stop done. And I made myself bloody 10 min after I got there. Nothing is going my way on this house.... Even the damn painters were whining about how this house is cursed. Shoulda went TnM.....I know better too. Damn


I'm sure I'm not the only one that is curious about this. Must be some craziness with that house's plumbing system. What happened? I hope the bloody moment does't leave a scar. :sad:


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Why would you assume that they are compression stops?
> 
> Maybe a real plumber did the original installation. Them things is real junk.
> 
> ...



Tankless is in Santa Barbara, can't say I know too much regarding the plumbing trends up there. More often than not we have compression stops down here. Sounds like you're an ip guy. I like compressions because I can put them in any position I want. Ip's stay when they get tight, and I don't like that look.

I've had a couple sets of stops that gave me grief. Thinking back, I should have grabbed a can of penetrating fluid. My ferrule cutter is a real time saver. I know a few "real plumbers" that are content to do things the way they've always done them regardless of how long it takes.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Most but not all stops are compression. That's all I pretty much use and I am not alone or a hack in doing this. By 3/8's if you really must know. I started on the WM bibs. Frozen and over tightened. The ferrel had cut in to the 1/2" stub outs. I had to open the wall cut out the support which of course was soldered then back out the stubs prep it and do new ones. Put the drywall back then my rings and stops finally. The next was a lav pedistal. My puller wouldn't fit back in there so I had to be very ginger with it. It was not working so I pulled the GD thing, 5 min later I had both stops replaced then I had to reset the pedi.......Stuff like this was happening at every portion of this part of the job. Softener went in great...new TnP line was a snap...just the unknown is what caused me the grief. My client saw I was struggling with the stops and told me he expected the price to go up based on the condition things were and just said add it to my bill but be fair. I simply replied I only know how to be fair. Would up doing about another grand of work of which I have a few hours left tomorrow. I will not be charging him extra for the stops. I gave him a price and just because this one didn't turn out in my favor I'm not going to take that out on him. He's a good client, does what I tell him to do....pays with a smile and a thanks. What else can I ask for?

My question still stands...how do flat rate guys deal with not only things like this but most forms of service work where the known unknowns are present?


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Flat rate the known jobs like fixture replacements or W/H replacements. Then T&M jobs that are unknown, just make sure you are charging enough. Example, I charge $145 for the 1st hr, the rate goes down after that but I have to charge enough for the lst hr to cover travel time and wear on the truck. 

I may go full flat rate one day, but the cost of the book it too high too me. And since I do almost nothing but remodels, a price book wouldn't do me any good. Just make me look un-competent.


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

Tankless said:


> My question still stands...how do flat rate guys deal with not only things like this but most forms of service work where the known unknowns are present?


Good question. I can see how a rookie may have cut corners in this situation rather than watch his pay go down. Just sayin'. 

Good ol' honest t&m here.

BTW While you northerners were freezin' your azzes off Sat, we went 4 for 12 Sails in West Palm:thumbup:


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

gitnerdun said:


> Good question. I can see how a rookie may have cut corners in this situation rather than watch his pay go down. Just sayin'.
> 
> Good ol' honest t&m here.
> 
> BTW While you northerners were freezin' your azzes off Sat, we went 4 for 12 Sails in West Palm:thumbup:



That is quite the accusation there Git. Are you saying that those who use Flat Rate are not honest?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Tankless said:


> ...how do flat rate guys deal with not only things like this but most forms of service work where the known unknowns are present?


Like most people looking for a bridge from T&M to FR, you're making this harder than it has to be. Especially if you are a OMB, don't try to over think it. In my experience, the unknowns are not the norm, they are the exception. You are a very competent plumber so don't let the exception throw you back to the crutch of T&M.

There are going to be times when you miss something on the diagnostic. Get over it and move on. Just do the job, smile, and let the client experience your integrity as you fulfill your commitment. Learn from what you missed and move on.

As far as dealing with what happened on your job...You have to consider the work environment when giving a price on a job. Not all angle stops are created equal. You have to be thorough in the diagnostic stage.

Here is the real tough part. To be effective with giving prices in advance, you must be able to give the price based on your experience so that the customer is convinced you know what it will take to get the finished result they want. Unlike T&M where at the end of the job you can use hindsight to figure the bill. That doesn't take business skill. Any idiot can do that.

One of the biggest advantages of FR is this. In your customer's eyes, you approach the job from a position of knowledge and confidence that the best T&M guy will never have.


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

No Indie. Just quoting the old saying about "honest work for honest pay". Not saying that one is more honest than the other. Either one is only as honest as the billing worker makes it.

I am meaning that if an employee(rookie) were in this situation, where the job was taking much longer than expected, He may be tempted to cut corners in order to move on to the next job. My thought assumes he is paid by the job, not by the hour. For example, someone with less experience may have avoided pulling the pedestal and possibly doing damage to it instead. 

Not implying anything else. Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> Unlike T&M where at the end of the job you can use hindsight to figure the bill. That doesn't take business skill. Any idiot can do that.
> 
> One of the biggest advantages of FR is this. In your customer's eyes, you approach the job from a position of knowledge and confidence that the best T&M guy will never have.


 
This doesn't offend me, I am an idiot, really I am.
I have no business skill.
I have "hot" tatooed on my left hand. 
Shiz goes downhill. Payday's Friday yadyyadyyada..........................


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> There are going to be times when you miss something on the diagnostic. Get over it and move on. Just do the job, smile, and let the client experience your integrity as you fulfill your commitment. Learn from what you missed and move on.


This is where you will lose a customer faster than you can blink. Change orders or "Oops I forgot to add this" will get you shown the door real fast. As Biz said, just chalk it up to a learning experience and try not to repeat it next time. And there is nothing wrong with telling them that you missed something but, your going to honor you original price, this has made many happy customers that have been with me for many years.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I'm glad to see someone not take everything so personal. :yes:
No offense intended.

Sometimes my keyboard doesn't come out politically polite.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

gitnerdun said:


> No Indie. Just quoting the old saying about "honest work for honest pay". Not saying that one is more honest than the other. Either one is only as honest as the billing worker makes it.
> 
> I am meaning that if an employee(rookie) were in this situation, where the job was taking much longer than expected, He may be tempted to cut corners in order to move on to the next job. My thought assumes he is paid by the job, not by the hour. For example, someone with less experience may have avoided pulling the pedestal and possibly doing damage to it instead.
> 
> Not implying anything else. Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.



The very first shop I worked for was trying to use Flat Rate. Here I was a "Rookie" with minimal skills in plumbing. I got paid hourly, so there was no opportunity for me to hose a customer, and as it pertains to billing, I wouldn't have known any different. Also keep in mind when I tell this tale I knew full well that I should have been working under supervision, but that is rare here. Just ask waterboy if you don't believe me. 

So, here I am at a job, and the fill valve in the toilet is not working properly and needs to be replace. Thank God I had done some maintenance work, so at least I could diagnose some problems accurately. Well I pulled out the book, and gave the customer the price. He agreed, I changed the fill valve. Collected a check and was on my way. 

The boss complained because of how long it took me to perform the work. I said "What did you expect, I am new to this work." He still complained, but the price was set. 

Fast forward many months, I am now working at a different shop, and barely more experienced. The big difference was. This shop charged time and material. I go out on a similar type of call. Perform my diagnostic, take way to long to make a repair, as I am still a rookie. 

The boss in this situation, bills out of the shop, all techs fill out work orders and then the secretary figures the bill and mails it out. He bills for my total time on the job. Sometimes he would cut the price down for the slow, and new guys, but that was rare. Normally he billed the total time out. 

One more. This same shop had a guy that was slow, I mean slow. After more than 5 years of plumbing it would still take him 4 hours or more to change a kitchen faucet. Sometimes longer than that. I know for a fact the boss billed at least 90% of his time.

Which is more honest? Which situation is more fair?


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

I'm with you there Indie. I worked with guys who were slow, took cig breaks, drank on the job, took naps, and stole from customers. Ours is a tough business to get into. The reasons above are why I refuse to hire helpers. All the guys above all were billed out at the same rate as the most respected plumber in the shop. That is my biggest complaint in the service industry. The customer never knows who they get. Flat rate or T&M it all comes down to the guy with the tools. Confidence is good too, but you gotta know what to do with it.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

gitnerdun said:


> ...I am meaning that if an employee(rookie) were in this situation, where the job was taking much longer than expected, He may be tempted to cut corners in order to move on to the next job. My thought assumes he is paid by the job, not by the hour. For example, someone with less experience may have avoided pulling the pedestal and possibly doing damage to it instead....


This is a valid concern and is an issue that must be addressed by the owner/manager. Our guys are paid by the hour and receive bonuses for additional sales (relevant and needed only). We consistently analyze completed jobs to be sure we were fair to the customer, our employees, and our company.

I make it a practice to never berate an employee for taking a little longer than expected on a particular job. Although, I do have to find out what happened so it can be avoided in the future. If it is a chronic problem, then there are issues unrelated to the method we choose for pricing that must be addressed.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

A common misconception is time and a large material list increases value. It does not. Value is the client’s perceived value not the plumber’s perceived value.

Our flat rate book has different prices for the different jobs. I take a look at the job and decide which price best fits the description. We have compression, soldered and iron pipe emergency shutoffs and each are priced accordingly. 

We use our experience to price jobs. It is no different doing flat rate that a time and material company does to bid a job. Each company must know their area and what is primarily used. A closet bolt that can be pulled through the fixture will most likely need to have a flange replaced and priced. It is our knowledge and experience that allows us to do this. If the flange does not need replaced, then it is deducted. Flat rate pricing is dependent upon a knowledgeable technician and effective communication.

Sometimes we get bit. I was bit last Friday. Not due to bad pricing. I was not feeling well. I ended up in bed all weekend and finally went to the doctors Sunday and had 100 degree temp and bronchitis. Surely not the fault of the customer that it was taking me longer than it should have.

Each has their place. I will not condemn a company that uses time and material. I like flat rate and have used flat rate since the early 80’s. It has always been easier for me to do pricing this way. I have been very fortunate with deciding time on a job. I know how long a job will take me and I know how long a job will take with my co-workers. Where I have an issue is when I am told that I am unethical, stealing from a customer, have no integrity and am not honest because I use flat rate.

A person can spend 50 bucks for a job and that job does not fix the problem. The customer overpaid for that job.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

gitnerdun said:


> I'm with you there Indie. I worked with guys who were slow, took cig breaks, drank on the job, took naps, and stole from customers. Ours is a tough business to get into. The reasons above are why I refuse to hire helpers. All the guys above all were billed out at the same rate as the most respected plumber in the shop. That is my biggest complaint in the service industry. The customer never knows who they get. Flat rate or T&M it all comes down to the guy with the tools. Confidence is good too, but you gotta know what to do with it.


 




Drinking, sleeping and stealing on the job are big-time no-no's. :no: I don't know what some people are thinking.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Indie said:


> One more. This same shop had a guy that was slow, I mean slow. After more than 5 years of plumbing it would still take him 4 hours or more to change a kitchen faucet. Sometimes longer than that. I know for a fact the boss billed at least 90% of his time.
> 
> Which is more honest? Which situation is more fair?



Did the tech have call backs? Maybe he he just wanted to do everything right or he could of just been slow. I worked for a company that had a tech like that. He would take at least 30-50% longer for a job than everyone else. But he never had a call back, never damaged anyone's homes, never got himself into situations because of careless work. I learned alot from that guy. I used to go 100 mph, balls to the wall. But all that got me was callbacks. Most of the times, slower means _better._


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Will said:


> Did the tech have call backs? Maybe he he just wanted to do everything right or he could of just been slow. I worked for a company that had a tech like that. He would take at least 30-50% longer for a job than everyone else. But he never had a call back, never damaged anyone's homes, never got himself into situations because of careless work. I learned alot from that guy. I used to go 100 mph, balls to the wall. But all that got me was callbacks. Most of the times, slower means _better._


 


I am one of the slower plumbers. I used to get criticized when I did new construction plumbing. People were almost running to get the work done. Guys were skipping lunch, hauling butt, etc. because the shop gave you a 'budget'. We were given let's say 14 hours to install the fixtures on a final. Caulk, grout and test. If I spent all day with my helper, that was a total of 16 hours, so I would be over budget by (2) hours. That was back in the 1990's when homes were being built all over the place here. I learned alot at that company, but the pace was a hectic one.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Will said:


> Did the tech have call backs? Maybe he he just wanted to do everything right or he could of just been slow. I worked for a company that had a tech like that. He would take at least 30-50% longer for a job than everyone else. But he never had a call back, never damaged anyone's homes, never got himself into situations because of careless work. I learned alot from that guy. I used to go 100 mph, balls to the wall. But all that got me was callbacks. Most of the times, slower means _better._



I think he had a normal amount of calls back. He still found himself in bad spot because of careless work, and just didn't have a knack for the work. I know another guy that is slow and methodical. He does great work, and still has a normal percent of calls back. 

In a perfect world, with all things being the same. A case could be made for why Flat Rate is better for the consumer than time and material. As Biz said, if something comes up then you eat it and learn. As the time and material guys admit, things as always in their favor because they make sure they charge for the glitch. :laughing::yes:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> I am one of the slower plumbers. I used to get criticized when I did new construction plumbing. People were almost running to get the work done. Guys were skipping lunch, hauling butt, etc...


I would have been criticized too. I believe that a methodical and efficient plumber will out perform a fast plumber every day. It is always better to walk to the truck 2 times as opposed to running to the truck 12 times.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

To me it all boils down to the plumber doing the job. You can make T&M just as crooked as some companies do with Flat rate. 

Example: 

Say I charge $145 for the 1st hour. $100 an hour after 1st. Travel time included(as long as it not over 50 miles). I'm replacing a water closet I supplied. I also am replacing the flange, the supply line, the stop, chulk/grout base, shim it, supply seat etc. Takes me 2 1\2 hours.

I paid $125 for water closet, charged the home owner $175
I paid $5 for stop, charged home owner $12
I paid $5 for flange, charged $15 to home owner
I paid $3 for supply, charge home owner $8
I paid $3 for wax, charge home owner $8

See how easy it is to screw home owner by padding the materials? Now I have no problem with charging what I need to in order to make a living and feed my family, just think the home owner takes it alot better when you give them a price up front so they know what to expect. With flat rate you can charge more, with less complaints from from customers. That's a good thing. To me if your customer isn't happy its not because you charged to much, it's cause you didn't give them good service.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Will said:


> ...if your customer isn't happy its not because you charged to much, it's cause you didn't give them good service....


That should be the title of a book. :thumbsup:


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Will said:


> . To me if your customer isn't happy its not because you charged to much, it's cause you didn't give them good service.


 It took me a long time to learn that one. I wanted to make people happy based on price. That only goes so far. People are much happier with no mess, quality and efficient work. 

With that said, I am a T&M shop. I do every job as fast as possible while making sure it's done correctly. Most jobs I do are under my hour minimum charge. I work as efficiently as possible, and try to keep the bill as low as I can. 

I give most customers an estimated time before I start work so they have an idea of what it costs. There are many variables in plumbing though, lots of things hidden behind walls ect. I've had people who knew about problems and hid them from me when I gave them a price. They wanted me to fix these problems for free. 

Flat rate doesn't work for everything. I just looked at a 100K square foot factory that has been sitting abandoned for the past 6 years. The water pipes look like spaghetti in the ceiling and have been sitting full of water, without heat in a freezing climate for 6 years. Would you give the customer a flat rate number to get the water back on?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> It took me a long time to learn that one. I wanted to make people happy based on price. That only goes so far. People are much happier with no mess, quality and efficient work.
> 
> With that said, I am a T&M shop. I do every job as fast as possible while making sure it's done correctly. Most jobs I do are under my hour minimum charge. I work as efficiently as possible, and try to keep the bill as low as I can.
> 
> ...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> ...The water pipes look like spaghetti in the ceiling and have been sitting full of water, without heat in a freezing climate for 6 years. Would you give the customer a flat rate number to get the water back on?


Although this is a one in a million scenario, YES.

It would of course require more extensive diagnostic work but I have absolutely no doubt that the job could be approached in stages using upfront pricing.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> ...I could not have flat-rated the re-models. I had to move fixtures, remove tubs and rough-in showers, etc....


We successfully flat rate bath renovations every day of the week. Some are quite simple, yet others are complex. But ALL are priced in advanced after going over the details of the project with the customer.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Do you follow a book on your renovations or do you look at the job then come up with a quote based on experience? I've been doing the later.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Plbgbiz is absolutely 100% correct that flat rate can price out that job. The first price is an air test to check for leaks and then price the repairs or replacement. It will need a price to chlorinate the water lines after repairs have been made. I bid remodels all the time with flat rate. Like everything else the more you work it the better you get and able to adapt to all of the pricing.

Will you hit the nail on the head when you say the customer is not happy with the service and perceived value? When companies live by the price they will die by the price and build little in a long term relationship that is not based on price.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Will said:


> Do you follow a book on your renovations or do you look at the job then come up with a quote based on experience? I've been doing the later.


We do have set prices for different common tasks associated with our remodels. However, those prices are always subject to things particular to that job.

In the last 12 years of bathroom remodeling we have NEVER never charged T&M.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

RW Plumbing said:


> Flat rate doesn't work for everything. I just looked at a 100K square foot factory that has been sitting abandoned for the past 6 years. The water pipes look like spaghetti in the ceiling and have been sitting full of water, without heat in a freezing climate for 6 years. Would you give the customer a flat rate number to get the water back on?


Primary task to repair the first leak

Add on price for each additional leak depending on the size of the pipe the leak is on.

or a price to repipe.

This is the way we would price this job.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> We successfully flat rate bath renovations every day of the week. Some are quite simple, yet others are complex. But ALL are priced in advanced after going over the details of the project with the customer.


We would also price this out of our book.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Plbgbiz is absolutely 100% correct that flat rate can price out that job. The first price is an air test to check for leaks and then price the repairs or replacement. It will need a price to chlorinate the water lines after repairs have been made. I bid remodels all the time with flat rate. Like everything else the more you work it the better you get and able to adapt to all of the pricing.
> 
> Will you hit the nail on the head when you say the customer is not happy with the service and perceived value? When companies live by the price they will die by the price and build little in a long term relationship that is not based on price.


 
Who pays for the hours that you would spend setting up an air test and finding all the leaks? How are you going to flat rate something when you don't even know what you're bidding on. This place is such a mess it won't even hold an air test. I told him I could give him a price for a complete replacement but, there is so many leaks I couldn't possibly give a price to fix the existing.

I don't want to spend hours on end diagnosing this job to give him a price. Over half the work is just locating the leaks. Even a diagnostic fee wouldn't work unless it was an entire day's labor. That may not even be enough. On jobs where the condition of the piping is so poor and there is that many feet of pipe scattered about, flat rating just isn't practical.

It's a real hard sell telling a customer " here's a price to tell you what the repair price is." It could take you a couple days just to get MOST of the problems identified. I say most because no matter how hard you look, in an industrial building that is falling apart, you're bound to miss something. In commercial the one small thing you missed could cost you BIG. If you didn't see the 8" cast iron conductor that was snapped at the floor and isn't supported at all. A repair on something like that requires a lift, and at least a half days labor. It could be a few thousand dollar oops. 

I don't know what the extent of your commercial experiance is but, jobs like that can be a real mess. The customer wants a working plumbing system. The only way you can give an honest number, is on a replacement. The best you can really do is a T&M not to exceed number. I've seen many large commercial shops close their doors because they missed something small that wound up costing big money. Also when you give a number, commercial clients WILL hold you to it. If you have it written down, they can and WILL sue you if you try to add to the number. I refuse to get caught in that situation.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> ...The only way you can give an honest number, is on a replacement. The best you can really do is a T&M not to exceed number...
> ...when you give a number, commercial clients WILL hold you to it. If you have it written down, they can and WILL sue you if you try to add to the number...


First things first. Am I the only one that is getting sick and tired of "HONESTY" being the calling card of T&M?

And as for the "best I can do" as you put it, well that is a bit subjective. What really is the best? Fastest? Most thorough? Cheapest? Highest profit? Craftsmanship? Efficiency?

Apparently you CAN come up with a solid number for repairs since you are willing to commit to a "not to exceed" price. So the harder and smarter your crew works, the less income they generate. That's like giving the guy in last place at the Daytona 500 all the prize money. And if that isn't awesome enough, if the job takes too much longer, then you get hammered again because of your "not to exceed" price. 

And I do expect to be held to my contract because I'll hold them to it as well.

Offering upfront pricing on jobs is dependent on having relevant experience with that kind of work. I have a fair amount of commercial work in my past. So even though it is not what I now do every day, I am very confident your spaghetti pipes can be successfully repaired with proper diagnostics and upfront pricing. But as always, there are exceptions to every rule and maybe this one building on this one day is that exception.

If the piping is really in that bad of shape, maybe the repair option is a sucker's bet anyway. Maybe the best thing for the customer is to refuse to do patchwork and replace the pipes as needed. Who knows, it's all conjecture for me anyway since I haven't seen the building.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

RW Plumbing said:


> The best you can really do is a T&M not to exceed number. I've seen many large commercial shops close their doors because they missed something small that wound up costing big money. Also when you give a number, commercial clients WILL hold you to it. If you have it written down, they can and WILL sue you if you try to add to the number. I refuse to get caught in that situation.


And what if the "not to exceed number" you quoted is not enough are you going to be issuing a change order? Remember you said the client is going to hold you to that number or WILL sue you if it is exceeded. A verbal contract is the same as if it was written.

As I stated before we would quote a number for 1 leak or a certian number of leaks and any additional leaks would be so much based on pipe size.

So you can see with flat rate it can be an open ended contract that the client is aware of on the front end in writing.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> Who pays for the hours that you would spend setting up an air test and finding all the leaks? How are you going to flat rate something when you don't even know what you're bidding on. This place is such a mess it won't even hold an air test. I told him I could give him a price for a complete replacement but, there is so many leaks I couldn't possibly give a price to fix the existing.....


RW,

You have brought up some great questions. We may never see eye to eye on pricing methods but it is very clear you have your customers best interest in mind. Regardless of the method of pricing, that is always a good base to work from. :thumbsup:


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

RW Plumbing.

Sometimes we must put logic into play and quit playing around. The charge is for an air test and it is also meant to back up your theory of way too many leaks to make it cost worthy to do the repairs. No one said anything about holding air; it is for a test with 140 pounds to locate multiple leaks and to do it quickly. This will not take hours, should take less than 30 minutes to an hour. Once I locate a half dozen leaks it is over.RW I have been involved with plumbing for over 37 years and I can go into a commercial or residential home and understand what can go wrong and what will go smooth. Yes there are some things that are missed but that is rare. I can do this with flat rate. I can do this with time and material too. I am not going to argue what is practical. What may be practical to you could be and probably is different from what is practical too me. I am used to flat rate pricing and that makes it very practical to me. You are making this more difficult than it should be and we all agree that re-piping is the best value.

In Canton, Ohio I worked in buildings over 200 years old with 24 inch wood bases that a brand new drill bit would not drill through. I knew that I must have a core driller drill all the holes. That was bid into the jobs.

RW, my way of pricing is to strengthen your position on a total re-pipe and off the beaten path of many many repairs that will not benefit any in this transaction. 

You must do what you are most confident in doing.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

T&M and Not to exceed SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED in the same sentence. Why would you work time and materials and cut yourself off and work for free if things go bad? Thats a win win for the customer. Do you want to gamble with my money or yours? Flat rate = gamble with my money. T&M = gamble with your money. You can't have both, pick one


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Associated Plum said:


> And what if the "not to exceed number" you quoted is not enough are you going to be issuing a change order? Remember you said the client is going to hold you to that number or WILL sue you if it is exceeded. A verbal contract is the same as if it was written.
> 
> As I stated before we would quote a number for 1 leak or a certian number of leaks and any additional leaks would be so much based on pipe size.
> 
> So you can see with flat rate it can be an open ended contract that the client is aware of on the front end in writing.


This method sounds an awful lot like T&M to me. The customer has a problem. Their water distribution lines don't hold water. They have multiple leaks and no one knows how many or where. Charging a price to fix one leak isn't giving a flat rate price IMO and is the same as going T&M. 

In order to be true flate rate, as I understand it, you would need to price the ENTIRE job. The customer wanted to know a TOTAL cost not cost to fix one leak. That tells a customer about the same as me telling him my hourly rate.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> RW Plumbing.
> 
> Sometimes we must put logic into play and quit playing around. The charge is for an air test and it is also meant to back up your theory of way too many leaks to make it cost worthy to do the repairs. No one said anything about holding air; it is for a test with 140 pounds to locate multiple leaks and to do it quickly. This will not take hours, should take less than 30 minutes to an hour. Once I locate a half dozen leaks it is over.RW I have been involved with plumbing for over 37 years and I can go into a commercial or residential home and understand what can go wrong and what will go smooth. Yes there are some things that are missed but that is rare. I can do this with flat rate. I can do this with time and material too. I am not going to argue what is practical. What may be practical to you could be and probably is different from what is practical too me. I am used to flat rate pricing and that makes it very practical to me. You are making this more difficult than it should be and we all agree that re-piping is the best value.
> 
> ...


 By holding air I ment, it won't even pressurize. There are so many leaks that it won't build ANY pressure. Everyone involved knows there are lots of leaks. I've talked with the customer and let him know it makes more sense to replace the piping. He doesn't want to.... 

I don't need an air test to see half a dozen splits or holes or non capped pipes. The point is the customer wants the old crap REPAIRED. He also wants a price for it. It will take half the time of completing the repair to gather a price. Doing all of these diagnostic tests cost time right? I would rather charge a customer to actually accomplish something. 

He wants it both ways, he doesn't want to pay enough to replace the piping and he wants an accurate price to repair it. How do you put that price together?? You physically charge out time ( I can guarantee it will take at least a half day to locate them) to give a price? I can't see handing a customer a bill for hundreds of dollars, and all I did was give him an accurate quote.

No one to my knowledge is clairvoyant, you would have to do the same thing I would which is to physically locate the leaks to quote a repair price. My question is who pays for that time? Do you charge to just locate those leaks? Then you give a price to actually FIX them? Seems kinda like double dipping to me....


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> ...In order to be true flate rate, as I understand it, you would need to price the ENTIRE job. The customer wanted to know a TOTAL cost not cost to fix one leak. That tells a customer about the same as me telling him my hourly rate.


That is a common misconception about flat rate pricing. Just because projects are broken down into bite size portions doesn't mean a FR shop has access to a crystal ball that T&M shops don't possess. If this project genuinely has unforeseeable issues, then it is the responsibility of the plumber to stipulate those contingencies in the proposal. Assuming of course both parties looking at the job know what they're doing.

My opinion is that the customer is in a much more informed position with the FR project in stages rather than T&M. With the FR project, as it moves forward, the customer knows exactly what each finished result will cost. With T&M all he knows is that the clock is ticking but has no idea what the cost will be. 

The real sticky part for T&M could be if the hourly rate is proposed to be "competitive" and the company planned on making up for it by marking up the cost of the copper fittings and pipe. If you don't pour enough material into the job, then you lose money on the hourly rate. But, that's a whole nother thread.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> ...He wants it both ways, he doesn't want to pay enough to replace the piping and he wants an accurate price to repair it. How do you put that price together?? You physically charge out time ( I can guarantee it will take at least a half day to locate them) to give a price? I can't see handing a customer a bill for hundreds of dollars, and all I did was give him an accurate quote....


Although a good plumbing company will always give the client what they "need", it may not be what they "want". So by all means...YES. If he insists on having an accurate and relevant price for the repair cost, it is going to take some measure of work to get that information. The ball is then in your court.

How bad do you want the job? 
How dangerous are the unknowns? 
How confident are you that you'll get the job? 
Are you going to wish you didn't get the job?

These are all questions you have to know the answer to before you even start. These answers will help you decide how much (if any) you want to charge to educate him on his problem. You are not charging him to give him a price. When you finish your proposal, he will be guided through the situation by a Professional Plumber. This is not a drive by to give a price on replacing a sill cock. This is a very involved project that not every plumber in town is necessarily qualified to undertake.

So all you're doing is giving him an accurate quote. You say that like it's easy and anyone can do it. Offering an accurate price upfront on a large project is not easy nor is it wise for the inexperienced. And it is certainly not for the faint of heart. So then, why on Earth should it be free?


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> So all you're doing is giving him an accurate quote. You say that like it's easy and anyone can do it. Offering an accurate price upfront on a large project is not easy nor is it wise for the inexperienced. And it is certainly not for the faint of heart. So then, why on Earth should it be free?


 It isn't easy to give a quote that isn't insanely high, or doesn't cut your throat, but it's a waste of money. I would rather walk on the job than fix the pipe peice by peice. I have a reputation as being fair, even if the rep is in my own mind. I know it will wind up being more expensive to do this job as a peice meal than to just replace the pipe. 

It's a waste of time to charge to find the leaks in the system. It's customary to provide a free price on commercial projects. When you bid out a hospital, you don't charge for the quote. Not around here anyhow. He doesn't understand that this instance is different, someone else is going to educate him too. I'm done wasting my time.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Sometimes it is best to fire a client before you waste a lot of your time to find out that he went with the cheapest bid without considering what is best.


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