# High prices or not



## express (Nov 22, 2008)

Received a call back to do a job after the big blue truck gave a quote, I knew they were going to get some high prices so I shot a little high. this was the job. Replace 3 customers faucets in bathroom 4" on center, replace 6 shut off pex valves. needed to use quest to pex adapters. reused pvc traps that unscrewed, six supplys. Shoot me some prices and I tell you what their quote was.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

You'll have to be a little more specific. What kind of faucet exactly did you quote? I'll give you a proposal, Kohler lever handle chrome, new pop up drain, two new ss risers, two new stops $488.00 per sink, total job = $1464.00
So what did you quote them? LOL

BUT...... I would have walked and not did the job because of the quest piping, I don't touch it no matter what the price. That's why I don't quote over the phone, it's different every time.


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## express (Nov 22, 2008)

customer supplied faucets, and around here copper gets eaten up by the acid in the water and soil. so new price without faucets and I'll list price they quoted later.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

$600.00


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Herk said:


> $600.00



Herk you and I think alike, I was going to say about the same thing.:thumbsup:


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## express (Nov 22, 2008)

my new business plan is to follow the big blue truck and pick up all the jobs they get a no too! ready $1648.00 and wanted to use their faucets for additional up charge. Job took me 3.50 hrs.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

So how much did you charge?


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

As far as Im concerned...and I know the Clockwork pricing system....any company that tries to hire sales people and "communicators" to push that pricing thru have reached terminal velocity. The negative word of mouth will bite their market share squarely on the cheek.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

stillaround said:


> As far as Im concerned...and I know the Clockwork pricing system....any company that tries to hire sales people and "communicators" to push that pricing thru have reached terminal velocity. The negative word of mouth will bite their market share squarely on the cheek.



You can say that again! Word of mouth is the greatest form of advertisement there is. I haven't used the yellow pages in a long time, no need for it anymore. If I charged over 500 dollars to install a customer provided faucet I would be out of business in no time. There's one company around here who charges like that, I always get the jobs. I Know what they charge and I know how to bid them.:thumbsup:


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

express said:


> Received a call back to do a job after the big blue truck gave a quote, I knew they were going to get some high prices so I shot a little high. this was the job. Replace 3 customers faucets in bathroom 4" on center, replace 6 shut off pex valves. needed to use quest to pex adapters. reused pvc traps that unscrewed, six supplys. Shoot me some prices and I tell you what their quote was.


Have you sent them a thank you note? Their presence in the market place is what allowed you to do this. Had they not been there how much lower would your profit numbers have been on this job? Would you have even made a profit? Did you even make a profit? 

I am not associated with BF but I am glad they are around. I know Song Dog has had his problems with them but I bet he will be the first to tell you that he learned some very valuable things from them while with them. I want to see more companies in the market who are stretching the envelope. I don't want to be entering crawl spaces on my back or belly when I'm 70.

I know BF is a favorite target but anyone who has them in their market should be raising their prices immediately. Just my opinion.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

disregard


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> I know BF is a favorite target but anyone who has them in their market should be raising their prices immediately. Just my opinion.


Plumbers should be raising their prices anyway. Do you want to be known as one that sets the standard for the other plumbers or just another Billy Buttcrack.

I have never understood that if you know what another company is charging why you would do it for any less.

Example: years ago we looked at installing a 2.5" gas line to a paint booth. the client told us what the other company bid and wanted us to do it for less, what he didn't know was that the bid was face up on his desk with a higher price than he was telling us. Did we underbid the other company/ NO in fact we were almsot $1,000.00 higher and got the job.

Another example: we quoted a water heater and another company came in quoted a price that was almost 1/2 of our price. Guess what we still did the job.

Price is not always the issue, it is the percieved value that sales the job.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I hope I dont detect a slight nose in the air attitude here. Gem plumbing quit PSI as soon as the franchises split off. Why? Houston and Indianapolis and maybe Birmingham are more or less insulated from the external economic condition with respect to plumbing. $600 for 3.5 hours work is $171.00 per hour not considering a show up fee. If there isnt 15% net profit in that then they should consider trimming expenses. Watch out for the persons who are willing to do a good job and market well and have image because if their prices are lower they will eat your lunch--its the American way.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Prosper pricing is supposed to be a win for the customer also---that gets forgotton real quick with systems and procedures sucking the soul of compassion out of service . Go ahead make my day.


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## express (Nov 22, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> Have you sent them a thank you note? Their presence in the market place is what allowed you to do this. Had they not been there how much lower would your profit numbers have been on this job? Would you have even made a profit? Did you even make a profit?
> 
> I am not associated with BF but I am glad they are around.
> I agree, never want to be the most expensive or the cheapest.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I had a discussion with Tab Hunter (pres. of BF franchise) and by the way he was a very successful plmg. contractor in Nashville and came up thru the ranks and when he ran his business he wasnt anywhere near the BF pricing. But BF will tell you to cut off your family to make a bottom line and if you are corporate they will. " BF is *all *about making money" his own words. When they were listening to calls in Jax area and the plumber quoted $25 per 1/4 hour after show fee Tab said thats pretty good. So its possible some of these BF ers are out of control.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Ive defended the PSI, BF stuff in the past because of the organization, talented bsnss. people, good bsnss. practices, and systems are the right way to have "control" but I wont be silent at the pure ignorance and disregard for the customer to quote almost $1500 for 3.5 hrs work. And I wont thank them for helping me. I wouldnt thank a thief for being in the neighborhood.


My button has been pushed slightly


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

I didn't say what my number was for this job but it's not $1500 or $1464 or $1648. All I'm saying is that the guy who has been charging $450 to install 3 ho's faucets has got to know, after hearing BF wants $1648, which includes BF's faucets, that the ho will jump at the chance to pay him $900 to install his 3 crappy $100 faucets from Blowe's. This is what I mean by being glad they are in the market. A rising tide should lift every boat in the ocean, unless the captain is determined to be a submarine.


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## UnclogNH (Mar 28, 2009)

smellslike$tome said:


> Have you sent them a thank you note? Their presence in the market place is what allowed you to do this. Had they not been there how much lower would your profit numbers have been on this job? Would you have even made a profit? Did you even make a profit?
> 
> I am not associated with BF but I am glad they are around. I know Song Dog has had his problems with them but I bet he will be the first to tell you that he learned some very valuable things from them while with them. I want to see more companies in the market who are stretching the envelope. I don't want to be entering crawl spaces on my back or belly when I'm 70.
> 
> I know BF is a favorite target but anyone who has them in their market should be raising their prices immediately. Just my opinion.


I went up a bit because of BF. But BF now RIP because of word of mouth and very high prices closed it's doors. Proves Image and high prices don't work in small town America.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

UnclogNH said:


> I went up a bit because of BF. But BF now RIP because of word of mouth and very high prices closed it's doors. Proves Image and high prices don't work in small town America.


You got that right. I compete against a PSI company on a daily basis. Just got one, bid $865.00, they bid $1,850.00,..... and I thought my quote was high!:laughing:


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

ironranger said:


> You got that right. I compete against a PSI company on a daily basis. Just got one, bid $865.00, they bid $1,850.00,..... and I thought my quote was high!:laughing:


Please don't take this the wrong way because I swear I'm not trying to start anything here but, ... does it not bother you to know that you left the best part of $985.00 on the table?


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I appreciate the tone. And I know the question is not directed to me. I want to take the op to say that leaving money on the table stops at some threshold and becomes an unfair abuse of the customer especially when they are trusting the plumber for some candor in for example repair vs. replace. A weaker customer tends to go along with the advise even if their gut says..gosh thats expensive.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way because I swear I'm not trying to start anything here but, ... does it not bother you to know that you left the best part of $985.00 on the table?


 
:thumbup:


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## UnclogNH (Mar 28, 2009)

I would have to say there is a fair price and OMG  Its because of these OMG shock prices BF, RR, RM, Mr.R DYI is on the increase.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

With all this money on the table talk and all this plumbers should charge more it sounds like a way to keep telling yourself over and over high prices are ok and the customer is just a small piece of my big puzzle. Everyone knows that if you cant run a business at a certain gross margin then prices should rise. Tell me what is the margin on $1850 for 3-4 hrs work. Tell me where the customer is in that equation and then if you have any concience at all tell me again how money is left on the table while you close your eyes to the needs of the customer.
Charge what you want --its sickening to hear the justification of a rip off and how there is some overall good associated with it. You havent sold me.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

smellslike$tome said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way because I swear I'm not trying to start anything here but, ... does it not bother you to know that you left the best part of $985.00 on the table?


Well I did the job, took me an hour and a half. Had maybe 200 bucks in material if that. Should I have charged 985 more? You mean 600 in profit wasn't enough for under two hours work? I get the bids, I get the work and I'm more than happy with what I'm charging. What they're charging is a rip off.


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## UnclogNH (Mar 28, 2009)

Was the $985 difference because of franchise costs. BF's take?

There are crooks and there is an honests day's work. Sure over charge get them only once when they need service again they call someone else. I would rather charge a little less and have a customer and referals for life.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

UnclogNH said:


> Was the $985 difference because of franchise costs. BF's take?
> 
> There are crooks and there is an honests day's work. Sure over charge get them only once when they need service again they call someone else. I would rather charge a little less and have a customer and referals for life.


You're right on the money. In the small towns I service charging what they do will only end up with your trucks parked.:thumbsup:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

express said:


> Received a call back to do a job after the big blue truck gave a quote, I knew they were going to get some high prices so I shot a little high. this was the job. Replace 3 customers faucets in bathroom 4" on center, replace 6 shut off pex valves. needed to use quest to pex adapters. reused pvc traps that unscrewed, six supplys. Shoot me some prices and I tell you what their quote was.


 


I'm figured $400-$500 plus materials to do that job. Half day tied up in it and I assume the pop-up assemblies need to be switched.


That's averaging around $100/hour, market average in my area. 

Hell there are guys working at $60/hour in my area. 


Charging $1800.00 to replace 3 faucets supplied? 

Their day is coming...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Roast Duck said:


> I'm figured $400-$500 plus materials to do that job. Half day tied up in it and I assume the pop-up assemblies need to be switched.
> 
> 
> That's averaging around $100/hour, market average in my area.
> ...


I agree Duck!
I guess the Blue outfit must be real tight with the advertising budget too...
I had a couple of their guys try to drop some spam in the comments on my blog...
The spam was for the SF Bay area franchise but the ISP came in from India...
What do they do use India for a call center?:furious:

Kicked em to the curb!:thumbup:


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## UnclogNH (Mar 28, 2009)

They just want to make money on franchise fee's and fast. They don't care if your company sinks. We all know they go through techs like crazy. Just make a ton of money fill there pockets fast one customer at a time. They don't care if past customers don't call back because their waiting for the next sucker to call. You think you own the company with their franchise name you think you run it  but they really have you by the balls.


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## express (Nov 22, 2008)

well I did this job on Thursday, and I already receive a call from the neighbor to put in a water heater. called my customer to thank them and said to stop by when I do the neighbors wh they would like me to look at theirs before it leaks. I am thankful for the big blue truck. if anyone would like to know how much I charged, leave it on here and I will PM you. thanks steve


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

express said:


> well I did this job on Thursday, and I already receive a call from the neighbor to put in a water heater. called my customer to thank them and said to stop by when I do the neighbors wh they would like me to look at theirs before it leaks. I am thankful for the big blue truck. if anyone would like to know how much I charged, leave it on here and I will PM you. thanks steve



I received your PM and your prices are very much like mine, very fair and very profitable. No need to rip folks off.


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## HALO3 (Jun 7, 2009)

*price for faucet install*



express said:


> Received a call back to do a job after the big blue truck gave a quote, I knew they were going to get some high prices so I shot a little high. this was the job. Replace 3 customers faucets in bathroom 4" on center, replace 6 shut off pex valves. needed to use quest to pex adapters. reused pvc traps that unscrewed, six supplys. Shoot me some prices and I tell you what their quote was.


 

$557.50 plus material


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## HALO3 (Jun 7, 2009)

Ironranger, there is a difference in ripping someone off, and giving them value for the money they spend. Many franchise plumbing outfits offer free in home plumbing inspections - no charge, wear shoe protectors to protect customers home - no charge - lay a red carpet, or blue or whatever color they choose. They use this carpet to wipe their feet before they put their booties on, - no charge - label all ball valves to identify purpose - a task rarely performed by plumbers, and should be done - no charge - definately a difference between ripping someone off and giving a customer value for dollars spent.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

HALO3 said:


> Ironranger, there is a difference in ripping someone off, and giving them value for the money they spend. Many franchise plumbing outfits offer free in home plumbing inspections - no charge, wear shoe protectors to protect customers home - no charge - lay a red carpet, or blue or whatever color they choose. They use this carpet to wipe their feet before they put their booties on, - no charge - label all ball valves to identify purpose - a task rarely performed by plumbers, and should be done - no charge - definately a difference between ripping someone off and giving a customer value for dollars spent.



Well if I was the customer and had the choice of the above or saving a thousand dollars... well you know. When it comes down to it I don't think they would be willing to pay the extra.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

HALO3 said:


> Many franchise plumbing outfits offer free in home plumbing inspections - no charge, wear shoe protectors to protect customers home - no charge - lay a red carpet, or blue or whatever color they choose. They use this carpet to wipe their feet before they put their booties on, - no charge - label all ball valves to identify purpose - a task rarely performed by plumbers, and should be done - no charge - definately a difference between ripping someone off and giving a customer value for dollars spent.


Are you serious?
Halo I cant tell where you stand on the value issue. Im a bit incensed over this topic so excuse me if my politics are running thin. Are you saying that the booties and carpet and labeling justify a higher price. I need a sense of proportion...if it justifies a higher price , fine , but how much? Are the image extras a good will gesture or a mask for getting more money of an inordinate amount?


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

stillaround said:


> Are you serious?



Are we sleeping with the enemy?


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Regarding the booties and the red carpets, I've had customers make jokes about them. They think it's a riot. CUSTOMERS ARE NOT STUPID! For some reason these companies like psi BF think all customers are stupid. Why is that? Most of my customers around here see right through that bull, they've said when they see it they cringe because they know what comes next. $$$$$$$$$$$$


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Are we sleeping with the enemy?


No unless this thing has got me so twirled I dont know who Ill wake up with.
1.I think the BF price is an unmitigated rip. 
2. I think that the balances of concience and ethics have gotten cleverly removed from the Franchise training rhetoric.
3. I think that a good price includes the customers life style, means and their choice unmanipulated by wolves in Franchise clothing.And if its not my responsibility as a plumber to weigh that in then it is as a human being putting a little golden rule to work. 

I got worked up over the BF is a good thing because we can charge more maybe than is right because they are so much higher we all rise with the benefit of their tide. Only thing , the customer drowns.
Help me out here I think I need to go to bed ..every post seems like an enemy--that ever happen to anyone...Dr. Phil?
Who is this next to me?


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

stillaround said:


> No unless this thing has got me so twirled I dont know who Ill wake up with.
> 1.I think the BF price is an unmitigated rip.
> 2. I think that the balances of concience and ethics have gotten cleverly removed from the Franchise training rhetoric.
> 3. I think that a good price includes the customers life style, means and their choice unmanipulated by wolves in Franchise clothing.And if its not my responsibility as a plumber to weigh that in then it is as a human being putting a little golden rule to work.
> ...


whoa, maybe my last post came out wrong. It was more a of a description than an aqusation. I hate the franchises. it is my goal to help put them bastards out of business. Im with you dude.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> whoa, maybe my last post came out wrong. It was more a of a description than an aqusation. I hate the franchises. it is my goal to help put them bastards out of business. Im with you dude.


Thanks.


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## HALO3 (Jun 7, 2009)

Rockstar, not sleeping with the enemy. Been to alot of continuing education classes and PHCC meetings. Talked with many people associated with a franchise. Stillaround, I think you need to be open minded from a business standpoint. A two truck plumbing outfit does not have the same overhead that a large franchise has. Stillaround, not image extras, but obligations. If members are disingenious, they will be held accountable. Value added services can justify higher price, along with several other variables.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

HALO3 said:


> Rockstar, not sleeping with the enemy. Been to alot of continuing education classes and PHCC meetings. Talked with many people associated with a franchise. Stillaround, I think you need to be open minded from a business standpoint. A two truck plumbing outfit does not have the same overhead that a large franchise has. Stillaround, not image extras, but obligations. If members are disingenious, they will be held accountable. Value added services can justify higher price, along with several other variables.


 Thanks for the clarification. Was a PSI member for about 6 years. Had my mind opened. Time to close it. I wear booties, have a red carpet, label the electrical panel when necessary. The sense of proportion is the issue. They wont be held accountable for charging what they are told. The wrong assumption here is that the Franchise is inherently good. And it would be or could be if it had a soul.


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## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

HALO3 said:


> Rockstar, not sleeping with the enemy. Been to alot of continuing education classes and PHCC meetings. Talked with many people associated with a franchise. Stillaround, I think you need to be open minded from a business standpoint. A two truck plumbing outfit does not have the same overhead that a large franchise has. Stillaround, not image extras, but obligations. If members are disingenious, they will be held accountable. Value added services can justify higher price, along with several other variables.


 
There lies the key to the whole problem. When will we learn that an organization can get too large?


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## HALO3 (Jun 7, 2009)

Stillaround no need to become cynical. We all talk to different people, working for different companies. No need to knock PHCC, or any other comments i made. I take a little information from all business owners and affiliates. Fortunately it has helped me in these tough economic times. I'm not saying I always agree with the way they do business, very parochial at times.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

I have found that a good number of these large outfits which do all those white shirts, carpets and the tags etc. etc. don't even send out licensed people they send out salesmen that are clueless about the trade they are working in. I wear booties put down clean tarps clean up behind me. no tags as of yet but I know what I am doing I hold a License. They need to first make sure they have people that can do the work correctly then do those extras.. I would never get involved with a franchise. Know your breakeven and charge what you need to. Don't charge more just because you can.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

I refuse to wear a white shirt to work!


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

HALO3 said:


> Stillaround no need to become cynical. We all talk to different people, working for different companies. No need to knock PHCC, or any other comments i made. I take a little information from all business owners and affiliates. Fortunately it has helped me in these tough economic times. I'm not saying I always agree with the way they do business, very parochial at times.


Please take no offense. It is commendable that you attend these groups and Im rebounding off this original pricing issue in the early posts and the defense in some minds over it. Ive learned a lot rubbing shoulders with other plumbers at seminars etc. And Ive been impressed with BF as a growing organization and their numbers coupled with One Hour AC. But you sacrifice a piece of your humanity if you swallow their bait. I think Jim Abrams is brilliant as a planner, Tab Hunter (pres. of BF) is a very nice guy and paid his dues as a plumber.
Its frustrating to see misconceptions over business value downplay a very gross overpricing. Mike Diamond does not use the 10 step Straightforward pricing and has a built in $35 off for 2nd task. 
If you ever go to one of the Clockwork functions and see Lon Cassel--hes a straight shooter. I dont know what else to say. Some people dont charge enough and need the pitch to pull them out. 
I understand value and options and I also understand adapting to your marketplace.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

Ironranger said:


> I refuse to wear a white shirt to work!


I used to swear that I would never wear the 'ice cream suit.' But now I wear one. Never say never.

If just getting a haircut could add 10% to your income, would you do it?

If yes, the question then becomes: how many things would you do if it turned out that they can provably make more money or close more sales? You can always think of your own original things that will get and keep customers, too. 

Of course, you can simply choose to continue whatever you're doing and if you're doing fine, more power to you. Personally, I want to know what works and I want to be better than the other guy. Competition is only going to get more fierce. BTW - the 'ice cream suit' is the one with the blue striped uniform shirt, not the white one. It's blue that sells. Having clothing that shows every smudge doesn't seem practical to me.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

The customer doesn't give two ****s what is needed for the company that walks into their door to be profitable.

It simply is not their problem.


If you're top tier in charging the customer, there's a place for you. If the mentality is to wring as much as you possibly can because there's a set of numbers in a book? Have at it. 

I've grazed this topic before, started a thread about it. If you're the same person that does this, then you shouldn't be complaining or hustling down the lawncare service that now charges you $709 to cut your grass. Oh wait, I'll just do it my damn self...cutting grass ain't that damn hard.


Want proof of that? 


Plumbing isn't rocket science. Certainly didn't take a college education to do it either. The licensing structure is so weakened/watered down at this point that even a master's license isn't holding the same weight as it once did. 

My grandma before she died years ago could do a full rebuild on her toilet, snake a drain, repair a faucet, replace a handle on her outside hose bibb.

The practicality of plumbing only becomes difficult when there's a complexity to it like not being able to locate a leak or a vibration in the water lines that they just cannot figure out "why". 

I didn't mention water heaters because there's always a constant flow of people, unlicensed and homeowners indeed doing our job every damn day. 

We got a job because sometimes money is a better fix for the task than the headache or buying the tools to do it themselves. 

Plumbing comes down to product knowledge on the service end. New construction building the plumbing system to skyscrapers and what not? Of course, not a DIY montage of thinking.

Plumbing is in a weakened state whether anyone is going to admit it or not. Just like ******* alluded to in prior conversations...someday these big franchises are going to gobble up the trade and become a huge threat to the little guy making a buck.

A design to simplify/police the standard so to speak. 


As much as I love the profession of plumbing, what this trade has had happen to it in the past 30 years, I can only imagine what the next 30 will be like.

We will most definitely be classed in just the same way as a drywaller. And who is to blame for that? 

We, Us. We are the enemy ourselves.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Duck, 
I never heard you wax eloquent before. The franchise race is being fueled by the ability to go public and bring in the 100+ million dollars of wall street money to "invest " in the growth. All wall street wants is growth. The weak market stopped BF from its fast track and he hasnt gone public yet. 
I hear you on the change of plumbing. Theres a lot of whose to blame but more important to me is what to do now and what plan th implement. Ive been burning bridges in protest to the GC new posture of the subs are responsible for everything and low price wins. Cutting into new service markets means when that phone rings its ATTENTION!! There are more of everybody and most arent afraid to cut price deep and most dont even know their numbers. If they make the payments on their modest lifestyle-good enough for them. Still Ive got optimism and like the stinkin sewer line--push a little harder and the blockage is removed.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

I disagree with everything you just said Duck except for the first two lines. Everything else is hogwash in my opinion. 

The license structure in Minnesota and many other states that I know of are good ones, it's extremely hard for anyone to pass this Masters test and they come down hard on the unlicensed plumbers, no problem here. Maybe where you live I don't know.

Your grandmother was an exception, in over 20 years in this business I have yet to meet anyones grandma that can rebuild a toilet or even attempt it.

Regarding the practicality of plumbing, the public may try doing minor tasks but I have yet to see hardly anyone who is not a real plumber do what I do on a daily basis, that's why they call me. And most of the time when they try they fail and end up calling anyway.

Our trade is alive and well and it just gets more exciting each day with the new idea's and products out there.

I Know we've had our outs duck but I have to say that you're the minority regarding your logic about our trade. Most of the plumbers on these board and across the country don't think like that and I believe that most everyone will disagree with your negativity. Most of us find our trade exciting and with a very bright future, I know I do.

We will never be in the same class as a drywaller, please. If you really think the future is that bad then maybe it's time for you to give it up and find something that you can be positive about. Good luck to you duck.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

stillaround said:


> Duck,
> I never heard you wax eloquent before. The franchise race is being fueled by the ability to go public and bring in the 100+ million dollars of wall street money to "invest " in the growth. All wall street wants is growth. The weak market stopped BF from its fast track and he hasnt gone public yet.
> I hear you on the change of plumbing. Theres a lot of whose to blame but more important to me is what to do now and what plan th implement. Ive been burning bridges in protest to the GC new posture of the subs are responsible for everything and low price wins. Cutting into new service markets means when that phone rings its ATTENTION!! There are more of everybody and most arent afraid to cut price deep and most dont even know their numbers. If they make the payments on their modest lifestyle-good enough for them. Still Ive got optimism and like the stinkin sewer line--push a little harder and the blockage is removed.


I compete against maybe two or three other companies, actually maybe just one and they're a BF PSI company. I treat my customers with respect but I don't kiss their butts. I don't wear a white shirt but I do wear a uniform shirt and a hat with our name. 
I return each and every phone call I get in a timely manner. I show up to my jobs on the dot, they love that. 

Recession, what recession? People will always need plumbing work. We should be very grateful to be in this trade, we'll always have work while others are being laid off. 

About my competition, the big franchise. Let them do their thing I don't care. I charge a very modest fee for what I do, I'm not cheap and I make a very good living at it. I'm also a flat rate company like they are but my prices are not the same as theirs. I don't live month to month. My checking account balance grows each month and I'm able to pay my bills and wholesalers as the bills come in, on that day every time. I also am able to put away a nice savings every month. 

So should I be charging what they do and risk losing my customers I've worked hard to get? No friggin way.

I gave an example the other day of just one, they were 1000 dollars higher than me. I got the job, I always get the job and I'll never stoop to their level. I still say they are way out of line, people around here think they're foolish. I guess that's why their trucks are always parked every time I drive by their shop on my way to a job.:thumbup:


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## leak1 (Mar 25, 2009)

Ironrangers In The House!!!!!!!!


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I guess some people are just likeable .I want to tell you a bit about PSI.
I dont know the size of your market but there are a lot that compete here. Fortunately over the years we've kept our nose clean and dont have negative running at us in a small market. Also the reason for me not trying to push the PSI pricing to the max and start being known as the rip off guy was because I could tell these folks would not bite and would be hurt/offended if I pushed it.
The plumbing biz has taken a serious hit in the last 30 years with the big box, do it yourselfers, and the franchisers come along with the message that they can rescue you. Some of it helps. But behind the PSI "Im interested in your future" was a calculated plan to farm for the franchisees. Once they had a start they separated out the BF ers and one could see all the brain power of that organization was going to the franchise and not the left overs. What you got for your money was the opportunity to spend more for training ( of a sales tac that wouldnt fly here) webinars with the guys in big city markets ( some help huh) and some washed up actress on a web flash talking green america ( nobody goes to my web site ). 3 summits a year down to 2 and no more top marketing gurus ( at least not my last 3 years).All for the low low price.
So you cant look to the franchise to rescue you is my point of sorts. 
Im suprised though you reject the image/uniform schtik so emphaticly. Maybe in Minnesooota they prefer unpretention.


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## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

Being retired I dont have a dog in this fight but,as I said before roto started the raising of prices here in birmingham when the originial owner from just after ww2 surrendered his business in early 70s to the home office, then came mr rooter I was involved before and after Dwyer took over ,but like others have said" its my business I will run it my way"., and on we go, the union shops were floored by the prices and some held on but not many in service, lets all thank the plumbing gods for the flate rate(or rape) books!Auto mechanics had them way before we did,So who is to tell who what to charge>We all have kids ,grandkids,and living standards to keep,I would never let my reputation go just to keep up with the big boys,I know mr BF, his daddy was my sunday school teacher in 50s ,known as a fair, but hard assd union man who demanded a days work for a better than average days pay with full benefits,MR rooter has come an gone here at least 6 or 7 times ,roto keeps on chugging along and most of my friends have been around close to 30 yrs and are ready to hang it up like me ,Really our streets are not paved with gold and if you could see the phone books from 25 to 30 yrs back the ones who have made it, treated their customers with respect and did not rip them off(it used to be fun every year to see how many had come and gone) ,sure there are some who were old respected companies who were bought out by big money and have survived on advertising but most of us had good customers who trusted us with their keys,got to know their familys and neighbors and let us keep a good name in our area.We all had our little old ladies in their sunday school classes and bridge clubs who told all their friends how wonderful we were ,but they are all gone now, but not their kids) I am still feeling a little bad about pulling a permit for a GC but he is respected in his area, as the fellow who goes into the woods and clears the land builds the roads, puts in the manholes, runs the sewers up to the curbs,so in this case I made it possible for him to run a 1000 ft sewer thru a university campus ,under a 42 inch county water main and up to a new fieldhouse for the athhelic field house, that other plumbers didnt care to do.But I guess its just was ingrained in me to never pull a permit for anyone but my company ,so I will have to live with this one eddie


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

I am not here to defend or condemn anyones pricing, only ours.

If all plumbers cost of doing business was the same, there would be no arguement that someone was price gouging or low balling another, but it is not.

Are franchise fees a legitimate cost of doing business? If I was having to pay this you can bet our prices would reflect this cost.

Is company paid family health and dental insurance premiums a legitimate cost of doing business? If it is shouldn't my prices be higher if your are not paying insurance? Some of our employees premiums are over $1,000.00 a month.

Is training a legitimate cost of doing business? If it is shouldn't my prices reflect the knowledge of the additional training, eventho your not keeping up with current technology?

Is advertising a legitimate cost of doing business? Shouldn't my prices reflect this if we are doing more than throwing away our money to the yellow pages where that the client has numerous other companies to choose from?

What about updated and clean vehicles? Is that a legitimate cost of doing business? Shouldn't my prices reflect this?

What about Credit card fees? Is that a legitimate cost of doing business? Upto 3% of every credit card charge is paid by the company for the privelage of letting the client pay their bill with plastic. Would you deny a clients payment if this was the way they wanted to pay immediately?

Technology advanced equipment, Uniforms, Permits and Inspection on jobs where it is required, Company vehicle to drive home, Higher than the going rate pay scale, not laying people off or sending them home when work get slow, are these not legitimate expenses? OK! not sending people home may not be, but that is a personal thing.

There are many other legitimate business expenses that will dictate that they offer a higher price than others.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Roast Duck said:


> As much as I love the profession of plumbing, what this trade has had happen to it in the past 30 years, I can only imagine what the next 30 will be like.quote]
> 
> Do you think the type of products now being offered has something to do with it?


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Associated Plum said:


> I am not here to defend or condemn anyones pricing, only ours.
> 
> If all plumbers cost of doing business was the same, there would be no arguement that someone was price gouging or low balling another, but it is not.
> 
> ...



I hear what you're saying and agree mostly. But... there are companies out there that are about to put themselves out of business because of the greed factor.
My small company doesn't pay a franchise fee but from what I've heard they can be pretty expensive.
I do pay health care, training, phcc, clean new trucks, cc fee's, uniforms etc.
In a nut shell then, are the franchise fee's enough to justify quoting over a thousand dollars more for a small job? Is their mentality such that they are "better" than the rest? No I don't think so.
What I do see happening is my newest customers are saying "never again" regarding the franchise company. Never again will they be ripped off. I'm getting new lifelong customers left and right because of that franchise company. People are not stupid.

I'm in no way going to put them down or bad mouth the other company. I know the owner and he's a good guy. Just does it different than I do. I'm extremely happy they're around, I hope they keep doing what they're doing!:thumbsup:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Associated Plum said:


> Roast Duck said:
> 
> 
> > As much as I love the profession of plumbing, what this trade has had happen to it in the past 30 years, I can only imagine what the next 30 will be like.quote]
> ...


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I charge the same as the franchise guys. I kep my overhead low and my two trucks will make what 4 of theres does in profit. Why pay for a name when your work speaks for itself.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

I think we're past the criticisms, I hope anyway. 

We all know there are new construction plumbers out there doing what you said but you really can't bunch us all up like that just because we use pex or what have you.

I have never tried to save a buck at the homeowners expense and I sure don't cut my rates either. The materials I use are very expensive and are equal or greater to the cost of running copper, as we've previously discussed.

My customers are getting professional work done without any corners cut. 

There will always be the diy'ers and hack non licensed plumbers out there, that's never going to change. Just be happy you're getting the calls to clean up their mess.:thumbup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Do you use pvc? Homeowners screw themselves becuae most are cheap skates or broke,so dont blame the builder,he is working at the homownwers direction. if your talking baout 'spec houses" then you get what you pay for. I'll warranty it for a year after that....too bad. I'm not gonna change the world and refuse to go broke trying to prove a point.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

if your getting every job then your bidding too low.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Associated Plum said:


> I am not here to defend or condemn anyones pricing, only ours.
> 
> If all plumbers cost of doing business was the same, there would be no arguement that someone was price gouging or low balling another, but it is not.
> 
> ...


I need a bit more clarification. PSI has a financial format for the pricing based on a factor of the wages of the tech and all the considerations you mentioned. It gives a national average pricing that would work with say Chicago local 130 plumbers and still be roughly in line with the going rates out there. Overhead and nice trucks and advertising and insurances are more than amply compensated for at $1850 for 3.5 hours work wouldnt you say. Actually theyd be amply compensated at $900. On the one hand people justify the higher prices because the overhead is understandable. When the overhead is covered and the tech paid and say 12-18% net profit exists what is the meaning of the additional $850 charged to the customer?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I use allot of PSI methods, but Benjamin Franklin Plumbing Has just gone way off the deep end. At a certain point, no amount of service and professionalism can justify a price. If I told you I was going to send a certified mechanical engineer/master plumber/master electrician to your house to fix your plumbing but it would cost 1grand an hour what would you say. C'mon, he's the best there is:whistling2:

And that is assuming this ultra-mega tech is what we say he is(and we all know they aren’t. Not even close.)


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

The problem with pricing for plumbers is that plumbing has been in bargain basement for so long that we'll do anything to get out of it. But then the franchises and some of the consulting companies go to the other extreme. After all, it's a free market, right?

Yes, booties and mats and tarps and a nice truck and lots of tools are worth more money. Wearing a uniform and being clean and professional are very important and should be considered to be obligatory by all of us, moreso for the service plumbers.

My late father ran crews before he finally moved into estimating. Every day, he wore a uniform - dark uniform pants and shirt. He took the profession seriously. He only did commercial work. But he could talk to an architect or an owner without feeling that he was a lower class than they were.

The high prices will probably balance out over time. No company can sustain such high prices when other companies are doing the same quality of work at a lower price.

But what needs to happen is for plumbers to realize their worth; to charge what they're worth. In today's bad economy that is not always possible. Plumbers charging $60 an hour must be charging less than their expenses unless they have another, more profitable business on the side.

But plumbers charging $600 per hour should realize that their days are numbered. 

I noticed an ad for Norton "Classic" Antivirus the other day. It was a fraction of what it's been - even they realize they can no longer charge a premium price in the age of free antivirus programs.

Franchises must charge a higher price because of their expensive national ad campaigns. They must charge more because they've got more mouths to feed - with a hefty percentage coming off the top of each bill. Perhaps some owners can benefit from a franchise because they really, really don't know how to run a business and need to be shown how. Most of us got into business without an MBA or any concept of the managerial and entrepreneurial sides of the plumbing business. Far too many of us tried to charge less than our competitors, who had no idea how to set prices either. 

But now, we have wonderful tools available to us. This forum is an example. When I started in business, the other plumbers in the area were not about to share knowledge and help out a competitor. The internet has changed all that.

And it's been shown that you can raise your prices and not lose customers. It's been shown that you can professionalize your business with the mats and tarps and booties and uniforms and nice trucks and be successful, even in a small town. Part of that is image and part of it is learning selling skills. Like it or not, we are all salesmen. We sell ourselves every time we do a good job - that's a salesman skill as well as a source of pride. Nothing warms the cockles of my heart more than praise from a recent customer, partly because it means I am worthwhile, and partly because it means he'll tell others and my business will improve. And with luck he'll call me again the next time he needs service.

I hope that with all the talk that goes on in these forums, a lot of plumbers who are barely making it will learn enough to help bring plumbing up from bargain basement and onto the main floor.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Herk said:


> The problem with pricing for plumbers is that plumbing has been in bargain basement for so long that we'll do anything to get out of it. But then the franchises and some of the consulting companies go to the other extreme. After all, it's a free market, right?
> 
> Yes, booties and mats and tarps and a nice truck and lots of tools are worth more money. Wearing a uniform and being clean and professional are very important and should be considered to be obligatory by all of us, moreso for the service plumbers.
> 
> ...


Very well said :thumbup:.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

:thumbup:Thanks Herk


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

And plumbing has progressed over the years to a more respectable trade.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

House is 4 months old, $500,000.00 home and the numbnut new construction plumbers saving a buck at the expense of the homeowner.






 



This is the **** I'm constantly dealing with. Good thing it isn't me. Here soon I'm going to start naming names and see how bad it hurts when it burns into the internet. Can't hide this garbage no more.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Okay, thats revealing a trend and sick mindset. At least the 12th century plumbing is as good as day one except a little worn finish. That video has impact especially after all the exhaustive talk...bottom line is do it right.


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