# Hidden Camera Investigation--Plumbers



## ibeplumber (Sep 20, 2011)

http://todaynews.today.com/_news/20...rts-hidden-camera-investigation-plumbers?lite


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## ibeplumber (Sep 20, 2011)

Whoops! Just saw the other post on this...Here's the link though.


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## ibeplumber (Sep 20, 2011)

Read the comments in the link.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

I read some of the comments..but what's bothers me is.. they the reporter with the three plumbing experts call the valve stem 'screw'??? That'll screws up the public and more work for us for trying to screw the water heater drain and more.


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## ibeplumber (Sep 20, 2011)

I have to agree with the plumber that recommended draining the tank and replacing the valve. He was just giving her her options. If you touch it you own it. i would worry about why it started dripping in the 1st place. Although I carry brass hose caps now. And the expert saying the heater could last another 10 to 15 years! WTH has the national average changed? I thought it was 10 to 12 to begin with.


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

And why didnt the "Expert" correct the reporter about the name of that device??? Its not a hot water heater! its a COLD water heater!!!


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

I really dislike when they say Hot water heater. 

Videos like this make me happy on one hand, but on the other I don't like the idea of being set up.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

ibeplumber said:


> Read the comments in the link.


Wow, my favorite is the guy who thinks all the funds except for the cost of the heater is profit. There is so many misconceptions out there is a little discouraging at times. It amazes me that someone could actually not realize there are costs involved in running a business. He thinks that guys overhead is bogus. And I suppose he doesn't save for his kids tuition with his salary, but for some reason it's wrong for us to do it. Wtf


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

The very first plumber was the pro. He had the gut feeling that something was wrong, so he got the heck out, collecting no money leaving no paper trail.


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## Hillside (Jan 22, 2010)

I like the guy that tightened it with channys


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## KCplumber (Dec 31, 2009)

Plumber said:


> The very first plumber was the pro. He had the gut feeling that something was wrong, so he got the heck out, collecting no money leaving no paper trail.


Probably had no lincense


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I love all the people complaining about pricing. Yes there were 2 horrible plumbers. Maybe its not really their choice. Maybe they work for a commission only shop and will be jobless if they don't sell the jobs. I completely agree with the one who was going to replace the valve.


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## 130 PLUMBER (Oct 22, 2009)

LOL, i could just see it now, you make your adjustment to the valve then over night she springs a major leak and creates a big mess:no: 
with that being said i would write up an estimate to install a new boiler drain and give her a ZERO warranty on the adjustment.


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## KCplumber (Dec 31, 2009)

359 to replace the drain valve? Why drain the tank, air lock it, catch it on the fly and spin a new valve in - 10 minutes - 325 would be enough


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

Wowsa! |I'd go with a tighten valve and state that it appeared to have stopped leaking, but that I would suggest the option of replacing the drain valve with a new one for $000. Like was said above, you touch it, you own it.

Some of those guys were obviously not interested in finding the problem, just in selling a new unit, and it's good that they got caught. 

The experts saying it could last another 10-15 years might be right, but they should also be mentioning that if it is 10 years old, it could go any day! That part ticks me! :furious: 

The first guy was definitely the pro, that is right. Something dripping like that, leaving no signs of mineral buildup, that would seem a bit fishy.:detective:


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

KCplumber said:


> 359 to replace the drain valve? Why drain the tank, air lock it, catch it on the fly and spin a new valve in - 10 minutes - 325 would be enough


Naw, that's a little high, $319 :laughing:


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

They can do those sort of things all day in almost any industry. 

Funny they haven't tackled the way their own kind; advertising sales reps who say anything to get you to sign by telling you that advertising on their station will get you new customers and make you profitable and if it doesn't, then well, tough luck, you still gotta pay.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Another thing about these "news" investington... do they ever set up the trap for unlienced handyhacks???


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Another thing about these "news" investington... do they ever set up the trap for unlienced handyhacks???


I remember someone from Florida talking about cops catching them.


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I remember seeing one of these stings with a jiffy lube. They were up selling people and not even doing the work of the up sale.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

Chris Jansen did one also. Why do they keep picking on plumbers? Pick in hvac. Lol jk. 
I like the guy that fixed it but recommended a valve. What's wrong with giving options? He didn't force her into anything.


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## AndersenPlumbing (Jan 23, 2010)

I would have recommended replacing the valve (It didnt start leaking for no reason in the real world) and also warned them about the possible outcome of wrenching on an old tank and the possibility of it weakening the welds aroudn the outlet and possibly causing a leak later on. 

After all the reporters came out and gave me the 3rd degree about the situation, I would have walked out to my van and wrote them a bill for my 1 hour minimum. If that were a free estimate type situation, I would have given them a bill for sure since they were screwing around with my time.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I would have tightened it, then asked if they or anyone recently touched the valve like for annual maintenance. If they said no, then I would recommend replacing it. Especially if it was one of those plastic ones. They have a tendency to get brittle and break. I like the Nibco threaded ball valve with the hose thread on one end. I would explain that it seems to have stopped but unless someone has recently touched it, it's an indication of failure and should be replaced. Then I would ask the age of the heater, if its over 10 years I would say average life of a residential heater is 8-12 years, and it might not be worth replacing the valve. Would also ask if yearly maintenance was performed as this would help gauge if it was worth making repairs to an old heater. 

It's my usual everything happens for a reason speech. Then when they busted out of the closet I would ask which part of what I said wasn't true. The usual diagnosis isn't someone setting up a sting. I would give options, and let the customer choose. I like giving a good, better and best option. The guys charging 2k, it doesn't say was the heater a power vent? If it was that isn't too terrible of a price.


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## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

That first guy couldn't get out of there fast enough, he knew something was up. :laughing:
I think I would have showed her the problem, stopped it, maybe put a hose cap on it in case one of the kids was screwing around with it. Always felt bad about charging the hour min for a couple minutes work, so would have asked if there was any other plumbing issues to look at while i was on her dime. Then collect and get the heck out of there.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

*News media baah humbug*



RW Plumbing said:


> I would have tightened it, <SNIP>
> 
> Yes their exposa's certinly give the trade a bad name and they show up the bandits of the trade. But the bottom line is the good guys also get a bad name and the eyes of the customer are cast upon us.
> 
> ...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Gettinit said:


> I remember someone from Florida talking about cops catching them.


Twas me


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I think the biggest problem with this program is that it doesn't say how many of the plumbers simply closed the valve. They said "the next few plumbers got it right". How many is "the next few"?

I only saw 2 plumbers that said the tank needed to be replaced. 1 said the valve should be replaced. I would have probably said the same thing. Why? You go out and tighten the valve for nothing but your call out charge and then it leaks a few days later due to pitting on the seat of the valve and you get an unhappy home owner because you had to come out twice. I give options.

Option 1. I tighten the valve. No warranty. Might work might not. Your risk, your call.


Option 2. Replace the valve. I warranty the new part.

The trouble is with these "investigations" is that you don't ever hear the whole exchange. What did the customer say? What did the plumber say. They edit everything down to these 3 second sound bites. Other than the 2 plumbers who said she needed a new heater, I'm not sure any of them did anything wrong morally. You can argue about what they proposed to charge her for the recommended service, but she has the right to say no. That's called a free market.

If they called 10 plumbers and only 2 gave her a bogus diagnosis, that's only 1 out of 5 wrong diagnostics. That's WAYYYYYY better than doctors right off the bat.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Thought about this today and I concluded if I was on there I would have been one of the bad guys. 

First, things don't just leak without reason. If they are leaking then there is a reason. You would have to assume a failed valve. I've never seen one magically turn itself on. Not offering to replace that valve would be a disservice to the customer. 

Second, by looking at the age of the heater based on the gas valve it would be safe to assume it was more than a couple of years old. What if it was 10 years or so old? Around here fixing a heater more than 10 years old might prove to be an unwise investment. 

Finally, this is where they would nail me for sure. I would present a couple of options, and since replacement would put me in the bad plumber category that is where they would have me. I wouldn't push a water heater replacement, but if that heater was 10 or more years old I would have put it out as an option, primarily because I hate to see anyone put money into a heater that could go out sooner than later. It is my goal to eliminate immediate and near future problems if I can. 

With all that being said if the customer choose to go with a tightening of the valve as the only approved fix I would have said Okay, and noted my opinion on the invoice. 

The Real S.O.B. on this set up is the "Master Plumber" who should know damn well that any service Plumber would have strong suspicions of there being more to this job than a simple dripping valve.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Indie said:


> Thought about this today and I concluded if I was on there I would have been one of the bad guys.
> 
> First, things don't just leak without reason. If they are leaking then there is a reason. You would have to assume a failed valve. I've never seen one magically turn itself on. Not offering to replace that valve would be a disservice to the customer.
> 
> ...


For real. I like how he says this water heater will last 10-15 more years. Really? How do you know that? Did you drain the tank, inspect the anode rod, take the water to a lab for testing, camera inspect the inside of the tank? 10-15 years is about what you get out of a brand new gas water heater on good water!

I would kill to get a look at that serial #.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Over half those plumbers were dishonest. That was a crosscut of every town in america. License to steal is why this investigation even exists.

Someone needs to make a business out of these investigations.


Sent from my iPhone 6


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Over half those plumbers were dishonest. That was a crosscut of every town in america. License to steal is why this investigation even exists.
> 
> Someone needs to make a business out of these investigations.
> 
> ...


How did you determine that over half of the plumbers were dishonest when they didn't even show half of the total # called. They even admitted that MOST were honest even by their standard.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Protech said:


> How did you determine that over half of the plumbers were dishonest when they didn't even show half of the total # called. They even admitted that MOST were honest even by their standard.


Listen to the narrative when they pan back to the studio.

The video I reference is the one I linked off on facebook, from the today show.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I think just tightening the valve, without offering options would be the dishonest thing. Depending on the heaters age, a new water heater would be an option. 10 or more years old and I usually tell people the best investment is replacement. You have a basic service charge, and for the amount of that you get what, a changed part on a piece of equipment that's at the end of its service life. 

I would tighten the valve, recommend a new one and depending on age, a new heater.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

I resent how they keep saying "the right thing". Obviously lying is wrong, but I don't know one of those reporters who would get up and go to work every day if their employer said "You may get paid, maybe not, it depends on whether or not we think what you did today had any value." Time is valuable. I've never taken one of my 4 kids to the doctor and heard "You know, I just looked down her throat and in her ears, to tell you what you already know, she needs antibiotics, why don't you just not worry about your bill today." And that would make more sense then what these guys are expecting the plumbers to do because I drove to the doctors office he didn't come to me and it literally took him less than 5 minutes. But I never expect that. What is it about trades businesses that you are considered not nice if you don't give away time and work? Crazy.

If it was me (daydreaming) I would have made the reporters and the camera crew step out of the room and said "I'm going to go back in there and screw up something on the water heater, when I'm done, you go in and see if you can diagnose and fix it. ...and that's why you are getting a bill for my services today."


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

I too would be one of the bad guys. Like you all said valves dont just leak for no reason. I would have let them decide too but i sure would make them sign off that they understand if it floods its not on my dime! I would also once they harrassed me given them a bill for full hours rate. Then id like to see them not pay me..I would call the police and file theft charges aginst them. Im all for calling out the dishonest guys that rip off people and all. But what they did was dishonest and BS and wasting the companys time when they could have had a paying customer.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

They got a guy(sorta) at the place in Tucson I used to work at. I think it was a flapper unchained. He reattached it for free and gave them a price if they wanted to change out the crappy 1st gen 1.6 gal toilets. 

They tore him up but gave the guys who charged a service call to do the same thing a pass, I guess the guy was really hurt because he was an honest guy.


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## damnplumber (Jan 22, 2012)

I don't know if the plumbers charged a service call but the news company should have offered it for wasting their time. I am not sure what I would have done but I'm sure I would have cought the loose valve. but then, I would have looked at the units age and condition then offered options to replace the valve and a drip pan.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I would of went down the following punch list of design:


Tighten the leaking boiler drain, see if it stops. 

Then check the static water pressure in the home and see if that was the culprit as to "why" it was leaking.

Then I would ask the property owner if it had been recently used, or something that 'caused' it to leak other than just leaking unexpectedly. 

Then I'd offer replacement of the boiler drain to prevent a reoccurrence. If they throw caution to the wind, then I'll offer a $3 hose cap to solve the reoccurrence. IF they don't want to spend $3, then I'll tell them the next time they go to the hardware store, pick one up so in the event it does leak, no water will hit the floor. 

Regardless of how 'simple' the job; if it is a new customer, and I scheduled a visit to the home? I'm charging for my time just like I told them before I arrived. I will then ask them, "Is there anything else you'd like for us to look at while we are here? Our charges cover up to the first hour." 

^^^^^

If they say no, I'm collecting right there and then, they confirmed that we are done and they are content with paying us for the task, and on our way. 

Even though it's a simple task, it took money to arrive to the door. That's the rules... not going to change them unless the customer I'm in front of has spent hundreds of dollars with us before. If you coin free, 'some' will assume you'll make it up on the next one. 


I hate the fact that I have a few of those out there... ones that I never got that "I'll get you next time" jobs caught up, which means a loss of sales. :no:

Doesn't matter to me if that heater is 1 or 16 years old. My attitude is this; I can make more off the incremental in repairs on that heater before a straight up replacement. Straight up replacement might pay more initially, but then you don't walk into that home for years for that water heater. 

Being honest is the difference. Acting like you have a hidden camera in that room is what should be your motivation to be just who you are in everyday life, whether work or not.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Well said Dunbar.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Protech said:


> For real. I like how he says this water heater will last 10-15 more years. Really? How do you know that? Did you drain the tank, inspect the anode rod, take the water to a lab for testing, camera inspect the inside of the tank? 10-15 years is about what you get out of a brand new gas water heater on good water!
> 
> I would kill to get a look at that serial #.



Just looking at the gas valve and connections to the burner indicate that it's pre-July 2003. No FVIR control wires or piezo ignition.

That guy that said another 10-15 years has no clue. I like Bradford White, but a heater that old, at least ten years old, can start leaking any day now.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

I pull the anode on every heater call. Either anode is fine, needs a replacement or is so far gone that repairs make no sense.


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