# Outdoor sink



## voltatab

I have a home owner who wants to build
an built in BBQ and sink area in the backyard. 

They are all excited about this plan but I've told them that the only sink they could have is one where the waste line terminates onto the ground, as there really isn't a very close spot to grab a drain from the home, and even if I can, I need to vent the drain, which I can't do because they are just building a counter top and BBQ, no walls or ceiling. 

What other options are there for an backyard BBQ/sink station?


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## Protech

voltatab said:


> I have a home owner who wants to build
> an built in BBQ and sink area in the backyard.
> 
> They are all excited about this plan but I've told them that the only sink they could have is one where the waste line terminates onto the ground, as there really isn't a very close spot to grab a drain from the home, and even if I can, I need to vent the drain, which I can't do because they are just building a counter top and BBQ, no walls or ceiling.
> 
> *What other options are there for an backyard BBQ*/sink station?


Combination waste/vent is one.

underground dry vent is one.

Free standing steel stack right next too the BBQ.


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## voltatab

Steel stack - so it basically is a vent that looks like a steel pole? 

Underground dry vent, - like a loop vent, but it just goes to nothing??

Combination waste/vent - not sure what that is 

Thank you for the options


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## Jeffklan

You could put an air admittance vent under the sink, I know their aloud here in Canada, but it might be an easy solution.


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## grandpa

voltatab;191529 the only sink they could have is one where the waste line terminates onto the ground said:


> That is NOT legal most places. Certainly NOT legal under the CA (UPC) graywater chapter.


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## easttexasplumb

Pump the waste to where ever the house waste goes, and you really want to know how to vent an OUTDOOR sink.


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## SlickRick

Why would you vent a line dumping on the ground?


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## voltatab

With it dumping on the ground i had no plans to vent it. 

But these people don't really like the idea of I dumping on the ground.... and I just found out they plan to pour concrete so I wouldn't even be able to do that


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## Plumberman

How close is the nearest drain?


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## voltatab

25ft


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## Plumberman

No way to gravity fall to it?


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## voltatab

It's possible to grab onto the kitchen drain(25ft) but the Demo has not started yet do I don't know if I'll get the fall I need from there.
I just don't want to tell them that i can and then find out that I have to go Into the house(which they don't want) and jackhammer to grab a low enough spot on the drain. 

Pumping it seems like a god option, we don't have sewage pumps out here though so I've never messed with one. 

Also what was protech meaning about a dry vent under ground?


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## Plumberman

I think he is talking about a island sink vent set up (I think, but haven't heard it called that before) if he is then you have to have a line run over to the sink.

I would say pump it, they make laundry pumps which are designed to pump gray water. I have seen some as small as 5 gallon tanks, they may make even smaller. Yahoo search "under sink pumps" there are all different kinds of models.


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## voltatab

I think I may just do that. Thanks


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## Plumberman

Let us know...


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## voltatab

If I did do a waste that dumped on the ground, could I just as well bury the line, or does it have.to terminate above ground?


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## Redwood

Jeffklan said:


> You could put an air admittance vent under the sink, I know their *aloud* here in Canada, but it might be an easy solution.


Yea they are loud alright....

I love the farting noise they make sometimes...:laughing:


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## Plumberman

voltatab said:


> If I did do a waste that dumped on the ground, could I just as well bury the line, or does it have.to terminate above ground?


I take it they are just wanting to wash their hands and maybe a glass or two?

Is it in a neighborhood?


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## voltatab

Yes and yes.


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## RealLivePlumber

voltatab said:


> If I did do a waste that dumped on the ground, could I just as well bury the line, or does it have.to terminate above ground?


Don't do that. It will be a smelly mess. People will use it more than they think or say.

Look at "Hartell" LTP 1. Pump .


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## easttexasplumb

Plumberman said:


> I take it they are just wanting to wash their hands and maybe a glass or two?
> 
> Is it in a neighborhood?


And drinking fountain drains are designed for a little bit of water. People pour all kinds of stuff down them, and spit tobacco. Outdoor kitchen means lots of drinks around. Sodas and drink mixers being dumped on the ground will smell horrible.


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## voltatab

That's a good point. You can't control what others use it as. 

So then am I Better off telling this guy that it's not worth it to have a sink outside, since it could be opening a can of worms trying to tie into the sewage system?


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## Redwood

voltatab said:


> That's a good point. You can't control what others use it as.
> 
> So then am I Better off telling this guy that it's not worth it to have a sink outside, since it could be opening a can of worms trying to tie into the sewage system?


Maybe thats why our code says no!

What does your's say?


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## voltatab

Redwood
Here you can have a sink in that fashion. I'm just trying to get as much info as possible bout this and lookout for my customers best interest.


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## Widdershins

Have you looked into the Drainsaurs by Little Giant?

Ignore this retailers price, btw, you can find it much cheaper elsewhere.


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## voltatab

I haven't, but that looks sweet. 
The onlything I was thinking is that if I dont have the fall to run the drain then I wouldn't have the fall to run a loop vent back... I would have to have a steel vent stack sticking up next to BBQ, right?


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## Widdershins

voltatab said:


> I haven't, but that looks sweet.
> The onlything I was thinking is that if I dont have the fall to run the drain then I wouldn't have the fall to run a loop vent back... I would have to have a steel vent stack sticking up next to BBQ, right?


 You're going to need to vent both the sink drain and the ejector bucket.

You could likely get away with an AAV on the sink drain, which only needs to be 6" above the weir of the trap and could therefore be below the counter top. 

The ejector bucket isn't going to vent properly if you use an AAV on it, though -- That'll still need to be vented to the atmosphere.


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## Plumberman

easttexasplumb said:


> And drinking fountain drains are designed for a little bit of water. People pour all kinds of stuff down them, and spit tobacco. Outdoor kitchen means lots of drinks around. Sodas and drink mixers being dumped on the ground will smell horrible.


For sure, thats why I was asking. 

In rural settings here, with wooded areas that the people own I have seen them take a line out to right at the edge of the woods and build a small cess pool for their gray water. 

Of course being in a neighborhood, that's out of the question. 

I still say pumping is his best option.


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## voltatab

So I'm down to having a pump with a steel 10' vent stack or a smelly non vented dry well....


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## Plumberman

WS is spot on your going to have to vent the tank to get the smell up and away from the tank.

There's no way to place the tank and vent in a manner where it will blend in with the patio with a little paint? Pictures of the said location may help us throw some ideas out and to you.


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## voltatab

Thanks so much guys for your advice on this. 

I dont have a pic I'm sorry. This job is kinda far away from me. But I think I have enough info to talk with the HO about his options... Which may be to just have a BBQ only. 

There is nothing else in the yard that would blend In with the vent stack, so it would be pretty isolated.


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## OldSchool

If they are going to have an outside sink.. then they must have a swimming pool... just drain it into that


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## rocksteady

Disguise the vent for the sump as a 60' flag pole.






Paul


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## Plumberman

rocksteady said:


> Disguise the vent for the sump as a 60' flag pole.
> 
> Paul


That's a big arse flag pole


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## RealLivePlumber

I guess you did not bother to look at Hartell. Oh well.

Their tank vent connection is 1/2" ips. I use 3/8" od copper, with a return bend under the sink cabinet. No trap is needed on the sink, therefore no vent is necessary to protect the trap seal.

The idea for a flagpole vent is not only unnecessary, but ridiculous.

Jeez.


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## Plumberman

RealLivePlumber said:


> I guess you did not bother to look at Hartell. Oh well.
> 
> Their tank vent connection is 1/2" ips. I use 3/8" od copper, with a return bend under the sink cabinet. No trap is needed on the sink, therefore no vent is necessary to protect the trap seal.
> 
> The idea for a flagpole vent is not only unnecessary, but ridiculous.
> 
> Jeez.


Pretty sure that was sarcasm, jeez


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## voltatab

Hartell you say, eh?

Well thank you sir. I will check it out!


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## ZL700

I used the Zoeller 105 to pump a outdoor shower and sink in the garage. In the receptor is a Zoeller M53 pump which handles 1/2 solids. I buried about 70' of 1-1/2" poly and pump to side of house where it goes into an extended cleanout.


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## Redwood

voltatab said:


> Hartell you say, eh?
> 
> Well thank you sir. I will check it out!


The Hartell is probably ideal in this application.

I don't care for them much inside the house, and would go with a drain pump like a Liberty 404 0r, 405 but this application is perfect for the Hartell.

http://www.hartell.com/Files/Hartell/Global/US-en/site_files/LTA_Instructions.pdf

If you do use it tell the customer to always keep the basket strainer in place and never to drain the sink without it. The number 1 cause of failure on them is something like a knife going straight down the drain into the impeller jamming it and frying the motor.... Cover your @zz on the warrantee against that.


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## voltatab

Thanks, I think I'll nudge em in this direction.


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## NYC Plumber

Can you terminate far away from the sink, i like the grey water cesspool as far away as possible.
Aav under the sink for the vent.
I would avoid the pump, the less mechanical equipment the better, just gravity.
No electrician, maintence, etc.....
Imo!


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## NYC Plumber

RealLivePlumber said:


> I guess you did not bother to look at Hartell. Oh well.
> 
> Their tank vent connection is 1/2" ips. I use 3/8" od copper, with a return bend under the sink cabinet. No trap is needed on the sink, therefore no vent is necessary to protect the trap seal.
> 
> The idea for a flagpole vent is not only unnecessary, but ridiculous.
> 
> Jeez.


I disagree, you do need a trap, but i do agree the vent stack flagpole is quite ridiculous.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

What about a French drain??? Is ther a lot of clay??? And just vent it with a studer vent. Does you code allow that???


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## RealLivePlumber

You do not need a trap. per manifacturers instructions.

The 1 1/2" drain inlet is reduced to about 3/4",'and the impeller is offset to the side.


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## rocksteady

Of course the 60' flag pole was a joke. It's too tall and would look out of place. I think a better realistic alternative would be to hide the vent inside of one of these.














Paul


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## U666A

rocksteady said:


> Of course the 60' flag pole was a joke. It's too tall and would loqok out of place. I think a better realistic alternative would be to hide the vent inside of one of these.
> 
> Paul


Dual purpose as well! Not Only does it hide vent stack, but you can also urinate in the owls' mouth


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## NYC Plumber

RealLivePlumber said:


> You do not need a trap. per manifacturers instructions.
> 
> The 1 1/2" drain inlet is reduced to about 3/4",'and the impeller is offset to the side.


Who is the manufacturer? Where is the line termininating? Even if its indirect and the develpoed length is over 4' you need a trap.
What the big deal anyway wouldn't you feel better about putting one?
Not sure what you would save by ot installing a trap.


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## Widdershins

NYC Plumber said:


> Who is the manufacturer? Where is the line termininating? Even if its indirect and the develpoed length is over 4' you need a trap.
> What the big deal anyway wouldn't you feel better about putting one?
> Not sure what you would save by ot installing a trap.


 The indirect drain the pumps discharge piping drops into needs to be trapped, of course, but the sink doesn't need to be trapped.


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## NYC Plumber

Widdershins said:


> The indirect drain the pumps discharge piping drops into needs to be trapped, of course, but the sink doesn't need to be trapped.


I disagree you need a trap at the fixture, if the developed length of the drain is over 4'.
You will get smell, bugs, and who know what else being outside coming right into the sink.
Does that seem sanitary?
Why wouldn't you trap the fixture?? sorry i dont see the savings.


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## Redwood

NYC Plumber said:


> I disagree you need a trap at the fixture, if the developed length of the drain is over 4'.
> You will get smell, bugs, and who know what else being outside coming right into the sink.
> Does that seem sanitary?
> Why wouldn't you trap the fixture?? sorry i dont see the savings.


If you had clicked the link in post #39 you would know what you are talking about....:whistling2:


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## NYC Plumber

Redwood said:


> If you had clicked the link in post #39 you would know what you are talking about....:whistling2:


If you read my post you would know what i was talking about.
I said i would try to avoid the pump, and go gravity, everyone was throwing different opinions around, i guess i didn't realize that the plumbing god made a descion. I thought the point of message boards was to share opinions?


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## Michaelcookplum

Pumping is the worst idea, if I were doing this I would find the sewer line in the yard, it has to be deep enough for you to make it on grade, 1 1/2 or 2" pipe, 1/4" per foot that's only 3" of fall from where you said the sewer was 25' away. I would then use a California loop vent under the cabinet, it's what we used to do here in VA before the IPC allowed us to use the studor vent. I would be embarrassed to stick a vent pipe up on you new BBQ patio, and having a pump is pointless and possible trouble to maintain. Plus you will be enjoying a nice day with friends, and hear the pump kick on when you run the sink, that's not what you want. Always remember, you only use a pump when you can reach the sewer on gravity( grade) and you are obviously above ground so there should be no reason for a pump


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## Widdershins

Michaelcookplum said:


> Pumping is the worst idea, if I were doing this I would find the sewer line in the yard, it has to be deep enough for you to make it on grade, 1 1/2 or 2" pipe, 1/4" per foot that's only 3" of fall from where you said the sewer was 25' away. I would then use a California loop vent under the cabinet, it's what we used to do here in VA before the IPC allowed us to use the studor vent. I would be embarrassed to stick a vent pipe up on you new BBQ patio, and having a pump is pointless and possible trouble to maintain. Plus you will be enjoying a nice day with friends, and hear the pump kick on when you run the sink, that's not what you want. Always remember, you only use a pump when you can reach the sewer on gravity( grade) and you are obviously above ground so there should be no reason for a pump


 I can think of any of a number of clients, past and present, who would opt for the pump and a flag poled vent if it meant not tearing up a terrazzo patio, tiled deck or uprooting their carefully landscaped yard.


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## Bayside500

Michaelcookplum said:


> ............... 1/4" per foot that's only 3" of fall from where you said the sewer was 25' away..........


um, better check your math there bud LOL


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## RealLivePlumber

Michaelcookplum said:


> Always remember, you only use a pump when you can reach the sewer on gravity( grade)


 
I don't use a pump when I can gravity drain a fixture..................


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## plbgbiz

voltatab said:


> ....and I just found out they plan to pour concrete so I wouldn't even be able to do that


If they are planning on adding pavement, is the gravity drain still not possible? 

Maybe the landscape grade is preventing it.

Island sink vent would eliminate the need for a stack. However....
There may be any number of creative ways to incorporate a copper structure into the style of the patio and still have it function as a vent.


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## Michaelcookplum

Bayside500 said:


> um, better check your math there bud LOL


Yeah that would be 1/8", it's 4th of July weekend, just a little burnt


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## voltatab

That's basically where were at. They have a new home they bought, nice stone flooring in the backyard, everythings new and pretty and they want to build this BBQ area and everyone is telling them how easy and not super expensive it all is. 
I was telling them that I can give an estimate to run a pipe for the sink from their kitchen line, but I dont know what I'm going to get when I open the wall/floor, and I may have to go into the home to get low enough grade, or have a pump option deal. 

So now that they hear this they are a little uneasy about doing it-they are not prepared to go into the home, and have a tight budget. I don't wantto be that guy who starts to jackhammer, and then tells them the price just went up, without ever telling em the possibilities. 

Now that I feel I know the options I can do, I don't really have to worry about what I find, cause there options around it. And now that they know they trust me more- I hope!


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## RealLivePlumber

Michaelcookplum said:


> Yeah that would be 1/8", it's 4th of July weekend, just a little burnt


You can run 1 1/2", or 2"'at an 1/8"?

We can't.


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## Michaelcookplum

RealLivePlumber said:


> You can run 1 1/2", or 2"'at an 1/8"?
> 
> We can't.


We can't either, my math was wrong, I did 1/8 when I should have done 1/4, my mistake


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## NYC Plumber

Michaelcookplum said:


> We can't either, my math was wrong, I did 1/8 when I should have done 1/4, my mistake


No slack on this site for mistakes lol... 
Im sure everyone here installs 2" lines at a 1/4", lol gimme a break.
Its plumbing, not rocket science you guys crack me up with how perfect you are...
Or i should say how perfect you think you all are...


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## Widdershins

NYC Plumber said:


> No slack on this site for mistakes lol...
> Im sure everyone here installs 2" lines at a 1/4", lol gimme a break.
> Its plumbing, not rocket science you guys crack me up with how perfect you are...
> Or i should say how perfect you think you all are...


 Is that a challenge?

Please tell me it's a challenge.


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## NYC Plumber

Widdershins said:


> Is that a challenge?
> 
> Please tell me it's a challenge.


Its that a threat?? lol gimme a break...
You must be one of the rocket scientists,


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## U666A

I run all drainage at 1/4"/ft up to 3", and 4" trap arms are also 1/4". That is the code, and I follow it.

Telling my local inspectors "c'mon guys, it's not rocket science..." simply will not fly here.


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## Widdershins

NYC Plumber said:


> Its that a threat?? lol gimme a break...
> You must be one of the rocket scientists,


 If by "rocket scientist" you mean someone who takes their work seriously and would never grade a 2" line less than a 1/4" per foot, then yes, I am "one of the rocket scientists".


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## RW Plumbing

The truest statement ever said was Half assed work yields half assed results. Just barely pitch that 2" and cost the end user tons of money in drain cleaning fees. If you can't do things properly, quit your job so someone that can, can take over.


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## Plumberman

NYC Plumber is the best in the nation... Don't believe it, just ask him....


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## Widdershins

Plumberman said:


> NYC Plumber is the best in the nation... Don't believe it, just ask him....


 I'm every bit as full of myself as the next guy -- But even I know when to shut it down and defer to the real experts.


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## Plumberman

Widdershins said:


> I'm every bit as full of myself as the next guy -- But even I know when to shut it down and defer to the real experts.


I'm the same way, and I agree completely...

BRB, I've gotta go fine tune my rocket....


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## NYC Plumber

Widdershins said:


> If by "rocket scientist" you mean someone who takes their work seriously and would never grade a 2" line less than a 1/4" per foot, then yes, I am "one of the rocket scientists".


Wow im really impressed, that clearly makes you a great plumber.


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## NYC Plumber

Plumberman said:


> NYC Plumber is the best in the nation... Don't believe it, just ask him....


Who asked you for your opinion?? Def never said i was the best in the nation, i just don't make what we do to be some science.
We are plumbers get over it.


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## NYC Plumber

Widdershins said:


> I'm every bit as full of myself as the next guy -- But even I know when to shut it down and defer to the real experts.


What exactly makes you an expert?? Because you have a lot of post on PZ??
Sorry not in my book. 
Your a self proclaiimed expert lol! 
Oh i'm sure some more of your friends here will have some more comments for me lol.
"flux pools up inside the pipe" lol!


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## Plumberman

NYC Plumber said:


> Who asked you for your opinion?? Def never said i was the best in the nation, i just don't make what we do to be some science.
> We are plumbers get over it.


You posted on a public forum, that I can freely navigate and post to subjects I would like to participate in, you sir should get over yourself...


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## NYC Plumber

Plumberman said:


> I'm the same way, and I agree completely...
> 
> BRB, I've gotta go fine tune my rocket....


Thats really cute... You guys hang out and talk plumbimg on the weekend...
I don't know how guys like you make it on a construction site...


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## Plumberman

NYC Plumber said:


> Thats really cute... You guys hang out and talk plumbimg on the weekend...
> I don't know how guys like you make it on a construction site...


Been making it just fine down here thanks, I would hate to have to work with you, sound like you set on something large and are p'd off about it... Lighten up, you'll live longer.


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## NYC Plumber

Plumberman said:


> Been making it just fine down here thanks, I would hate to have to work with you, sound like you set on something large and are p'd off about it... Lighten up, you'll live longer.


Come work in a real city and see how make it. 
You know nothing about me, you started with me to stick up for your boyfriend.


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## Protech

This message is brought to you by miller genuine draft :stuart:


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## Plumberman

NYC Plumber said:


> Come work in a real city and see how make it.
> You know nothing about me, you started with me to stick up for your boyfriend.


In a real city eh? Sounds exciting. 

I'm good where I am at, I don't feel the need in proving myself to you or anyone for that matter.


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## Widdershins

NYC Plumber said:


> Wow im really impressed, that clearly makes you a great plumber.


 I wouldn't go so far as to say "great", but it does make me a better Plumber than you.

The differing codes used throughout the nation are arbitrarily enforced by the bodies hired to enforce them, but that doesn't mean we as Plumbers are allowed to arbitrarily pick and choose which sections of the code we abide by.


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## OldSchool

There must be a full moon tonight


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Protech said:


> This message is brought to you by miller genuine draft :stuart:


Ha ha. That's freaking funny. Is that a napkin. Lol. Nice loop vent. Lol


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## Widdershins

OldSchool said:


> There must be a full moon tonight


 It's just a crescent, I know this because I checked the webcam.:laughing:


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## NYC Plumber

Widdershins said:


> I wouldn't go so far as to say "great", but it does make me a better Plumber than you.
> 
> The differing codes used throughout the nation are arbitrarily enforced by the bodies hired to enforce them, but that doesn't mean we as Plumbers are allowed to arbitrarily pick and choose which sections of the code we abide by.


Slick rick how come this puppet guy doesn't get a warning?
Btw you also know nothing about me. Say what you want I would embarass you.
Guys like you give this trade a bad name.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

NYC Plumber said:


> Slick rick how come this puppet guy doesn't get a warning?
> Btw you also know nothing about me. Say what you want I would embarass you.
> Guys like you give this trade a bad name.


Dangggggggggg!!!!!!! Lol. Thumbs up


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## Widdershins

NYC Plumber said:


> Btw you also know nothing about me.


 I know that you see nothing wrong with cheating on the amount of fall you put on a 2" drain.

You're posting in a forum that is top heavy with Plumbing Professionals -- Did you really think such an admission was going to go unchallenged?


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## SlickRick

NYC Plumber said:


> Slick rick how come this puppet guy doesn't get a warning?
> Btw you also know nothing about me. Say what you want I would embarass you.
> Guys like you give this trade a bad name.


Some of that "You don't know me" crap.

btw, Airgap ask WS to tone it down, now I am asking you.


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## revenge

Were I am from the code book doesn't have the last woro the inspector does and u can show him its code and every thing is proper if he wants to be a n ass u got to giae him carrots


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## Plumberman

Widdershins said:


> It's just a crescent, I know this because I checked the webcam.:laughing:


NYC has their own moon, remember...


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## NYC Plumber

Widdershins said:


> I know that you see nothing wrong with cheating on the amount of fall you put on a 2" drain.
> 
> You're posting in a forum that is top heavy with Plumbing Professionals -- Did you really think such an admission was going to go unchallenged?


Your to thick to even get it. You are a self proclaimed plumbing professional. I am a plumbing professional, i am a nyc master plumber. You couldn't pass that test if you tried. My point is if i was working with you and we had to make the line work, and you started telling me about 1/4" pitch i would prob hit you over the head with a wrench. Just get out of my way. Obvoisly in the perfect world pitch it at a 1/4", but an experienced guy like you should know the world is never perfect. 
Back to the original pont of this thread, if i had to cheat on pitch a little to make an elevation for the outdoor sink damn right i would do it in order to qavoid that ridiculous pumping device that i would never install.


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## NYC Plumber

Plumberman said:


> NYC has their own moon, remember...


Huh? Nice comeback.


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## Airgap

Thread closed.


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