# What I learned after 9 months as a one man shop plumber



## Tango

What I learned after 9 months as a one man shop. Have a good laugh.


People will pay to find that mysterious ceiling leak. However they don’t want their ceiling opened if I can’t find the leak upstairs in the bathroom. They’ll wait and see.


People just bought a stainless fridge with a TV incorporated in it or a singing diswasher. They think that replacing a dishwasher or a new installation of a fridge line is easy as plugging a toaster. Even though I explain all the steps and by code I have to install water hammer arestors its too expensive. They call someone else.


These people want these installations done after they finish work at 5pm. They are not paying evening rates.


People shop prices when their toilet is clogged and its overflowing.


Their kitchen sink is clogged for days, They used drano, sulphuric acid, they removed the p-trap, used a dollarama snake, called their father to help. I get there the chandeliere in the foyer costs over 20 000 dollars, the guy is a lawyer, literally wall jewelry (never seen that before!), 2 BMW in the driveway. The plumbing is all done wrong they hired a hack.


I’ll talk to my husband and I’ll call you back. Yeah right!


What’s the price to install a glacier bay faucet and redo the piping under my new 8000$ dollar granite countertop? They reply what, no thats too expensive.


People call «I just finished a reno, I want 3 toilets installed, diswasher, fridge line, 4 faucets and drains within a floating vanity with drawers, 2 shower columns, kitchen faucet and drains, laundry tub», «What it takes at least a day of work? I’ll call you back.» They never call back...


People call «My undermount kitchen sink dropped from the granite countertop and the pipes are all twisted.» I reply call the installer. They say, they won’t answer, they are out of bussiness etc. They say why should I pay you to fix my problem?


I say the aproximate time and rate to unlog a drain to immigrants, they say fine do it. When it comes to pay the bill, they want a discount, only have 1 hours worth of cash or I have to follow them to the ATM, they fill their car with gas, not enough money gotta follow them to the bank and they are pissed I haven’t given up yet to getting paid!

What!! The material are not included in the hourly rate!? Yep for the rate of one hour of work I’ll supply enough free materials to build you a house!


General Contractors call and say, «My last plumber doesn’t show up anymore and I need a good MASTER plumber contractor.» I got wise and ask their budget, they reply all gloating I pay 5$ more than what an employee makes. You are a smart bear!


This sould only take a minute, what you charge an hour minimum! Never mind it takes over an hour to drive to and from the place!


When can you come to give me an estimate for a 30 minute job?


I need an estimate for my bathroom reno. I ask do you have any plans, what’s your budget, have you gotten quotes from someone else? The reply is always no. I get the angry reply «What you charge to come and see, and for a quote!»


Good news though, my cat is awesome! Wait my girlfriend too!:biggrin:


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## OpenSights

While you’re here, could you look at this too?

Could you finish my bathroom by Friday, I have a party this weekend. Give him the bill, along with the bill for his rental. Oh, I didn’t think it would be that much. I’ll have my wife pick up some checks from the bank, is it ok if I make payments?

Friday call when you actually busted out a bunch of calls and are home by two and the phone rings at 3:45, I’ve been working on this plugged sink in a basement unit all day, can you come out and open it?


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## Fatpat

I NEVER discuss price over the phone... 
Hourly Rate? Flat Rate is the only way to go.

When I’m selling the job, and I am asked what my hourly rate is I reply: 
we offer flat rate pricing, I let you know a total price, upfront. If the job take me one hour or 4hours it’s the same price.(it never takes longer than planed, and if it does it’s being resold bigger)


What ever the customers issue is, over the phone I act like it’s no big deal. I rarely have a customer turn me away once I am on the job.

For larger jobs, where a customer is shopping bids. It’s all about making them comfortable with spending a large amount of money on little ol you! 

Forget how your a-hole master would handle customers when your where an apprentice, being condescending or short will kill the call.

Hourly is a hard sell!


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## Master Mark

You are traveling over the same real estate that I passed over for 30 years ago....... you got to let it wash off you like a duck in water and grow a thick , thick skin.......

the ones that really piss me off are those who call you at 4.45 on a friday night and need their kitchen drain snaked... they haggle with you about the price and then I will usually fly off the handle and give them the third degree,,,:devil3:

I ask them questions like ... how long has this problem been going on??? 

since Tuesday Huh??.....and you finally get around to calling me on friday evening huh..??. So, What you been doing all day long shopping at the mall right ???

Then you find out its been stopped up for 3 days , and 2 other plumbers have already tried to unstop it before you and failed ....and they have the nerve to ask you if their will still be a charge if I cant unstop it..?? 
you must be joking right..??.:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


Even though your 9 months in business has probably been a trial by fire you probably have made a good living for yourself... 

this all falls under the price and trials of doing business


dont get me started on employees....


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## Master Mark

Fatpat said:


> I NEVER discuss price over the phone...
> Hourly Rate? Flat Rate is the only way to go.
> 
> When I’m selling the job, and I am asked what my hourly rate is I reply:
> we offer flat rate pricing, I let you know a total price, upfront. If the job take me one hour or 4hours it’s the same price.(it never takes longer than planed, and if it does it’s being resold bigger)
> 
> 
> What ever the customers issue is, over the phone I act like it’s no big deal. I rarely have a customer turn me away once I am on the job.
> 
> For larger jobs, where a customer is shopping bids. It’s all about making them comfortable with spending a large amount of money on little ol you!
> 
> Forget how your a-hole master would handle customers when your where an apprentice, being condescending or short will kill the call.
> 
> Hourly is a hard sell!



I always talk price over the phone and ask them as many questions as possible, I even ask them to send me a picture over the phone to me to make sure they are not fibbing to me about the situation... 

I dont like to drive across town and find some "shi/-hole" 3 day long mess to deal with with no hope of payment or salvation,,,, so if they dont like my price then they can shop it around and save me a lot of time and expenses...and misery..... . 

I hope I did not offend you with the word 
"shi/-hole" which could infer a reference to Haiti and African Nations.... 
Perhaps "hell-hole" would be a better choice of words......


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## Fatpat

Master Mark said:


> Fatpat said:
> 
> 
> 
> I NEVER discuss price over the phone...
> Hourly Rate? Flat Rate is the only way to go.
> 
> When I’m selling the job, and I am asked what my hourly rate is I reply:
> we offer flat rate pricing, I let you know a total price, upfront. If the job take me one hour or 4hours it’s the same price.(it never takes longer than planed, and if it does it’s being resold bigger)
> 
> 
> What ever the customers issue is, over the phone I act like it’s no big deal. I rarely have a customer turn me away once I am on the job.
> 
> For larger jobs, where a customer is shopping bids. It’s all about making them comfortable with spending a large amount of money on little ol you!
> 
> Forget how your a-hole master would handle customers when your where an apprentice, being condescending or short will kill the call.
> 
> Hourly is a hard sell!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I always talk price over the phone and ask them as many questions as possible, I even ask them to send me a picture over the phone to me to make sure they are not fibbing to me about the situation...
> 
> I dont like to drive across town and find some "shi/-hole" 3 day long mess to deal with with no hope of payment or salvation,,,, so if they dont like my price then they can shop it around and save me a lot of time and expenses...and misery..... .
> 
> I hope I did not offend you with the word
> "shi/-hole" which could infer a reference to Haiti and African Nations....
> Perhaps "hell-hole" would be a better choice of words......
Click to expand...


Mark your the best, I look forward to your comments. I believe the OP is in the same stage as me, which is customer acquisition haha

I will request pictures, but if the customer doesn’t ask about price it’s the last thing I will discuss.
As much info and details over the phone as possible!


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## Tommy plumber

Glad that I don't work for those lowdown customers!

I get those excuses, the whining and cheapos some of the time, but as a general rule my customers just pay for service and that's that. 

Original poster makes it sound like every one of his customers gives him grief or a song and dance. Good grief. If that's the case, glad I don't live in Canada.


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## Oorgnid

I honestly think flat rate could be/is successful, in the right areas of course. Where I live, people don’t want to pay/can’t afford flat rate pricing. It’s very hard to sell a customer a flat rate price when an hourly guy will do the same thing for cheap. Median income here is about 48k/yr. 

Don’t get me wrong, I love everything about the system. Easy to hook a customer when they know regardless of time, it’s the same. They know what they’re getting into. It’s just nowadays with Home Cheepo and Blowes, people don’t want to hear it (at least around here). Probably the reason hourly is more successful. 

I worked for a company here that uses flat rate and when I first started we were decently busy, towards the end when I left, I was sweeping the shop 20+ hours of the week just to make my 40. They charged a $59 service fee on top of the flat rate. The fee was to look at the situation and then tell them. I offered a suggestion to where they would waive the $59 service fee if the customer accepted the pricing and allowed us to do the work, but I was told they couldn’t afford to do it that way. I don’t run a business myself, but I think giving them that option forces their hand. They can either pay once and avoid the fee, or pay the fee and another plumbers fee as well. 

In anycase. I guess I rambled for nothing when all I’m getting at is, I think flat rate is great in larger/high income cities.


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## Tango

I have more paying customers now, a lot less whiners and people from overseas(to be politicaly correct) than before. It will take time to get a decent amount of good customers. The post was to laugh at some situations I got. 

All the companies here are time and material plus dispatch fee. I wanted to be smarter since I was reading flat rate was the thing all over this forum so I tried the flat rate. It works fine if the cheap client know the price on the phone before I get there. When you get there its worse than expected, now I’m stuck doing more work and provide parts for free. They have the exact amount you told them not a dollar more.

Then I tried the dispatch fee and refund towards the job with flat rate when I got there. No one accepted this. They all think they’ll get scammed for 60$ dispatch(only a fictitious amount) and that I’ll charge 3 thousand dollars to replace a faucet. 

I also don’t want to drive 30 minutes to see the job, tell them a price and they refuse only to drive another 30 minutes home. Most calls are 30 minutes away. Any suggestions on this one is appreciated.

I’m back with time and materials, time starts when I get there. No dispatch fee and its the best results so far. If I get a lot of calls I want to start my time when I start driving to their home. It will discourage many so the volume has to be there. I haven’t given up on flat rate but I got to fine tune it? Maybe when I get more volume than I can handle it'll work?

Then to reduce the amount of frustration with people who want ultra low prices I changed the slogan in my ads and raised my prices. Most know right off the bat it’ll cost more. There are other tweaks I did but I'm not discussing it in public.


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## Tommy plumber

Don't quote prices over the phone {this is easy when there is a secretary or call scheduler who is answering the phone. Her standard answer when asked for a price is: "I'm not the plumber sir, would you like to schedule an appointment for the plumber to come out? He will look at the job and give you a price."

Perhaps it is the clientele or your approach? I don't know. I just did a main line stoppage for a restaurant owner, a Mr. Patel. No joke his name is really Mr. Patel. My price was right near $300. He paid with no problem and no haggling. 

Then, he calls me back a few days later, this past Saturday to be exact, and he wants me out again to cable the bar sink {which I could not do the other night since customers were at the bar}; I got there around 1:00 PM. He opens the bar and restaurant at 4:00 PM. He paid for another task at task price and again he didn't piss, moan or complain. {had I cabled the bar floor drain the night that I was out there, it would have been less expensive as an add-on, where as getting me out again on another day triggers that task as a higher priced task instead of at the add-on rate. 

When people can't take a shower or flush the toilet, I don't know why there is any discussion about price when a plumber is at your door. They just want relief and a resolution to their problem. I don't know what your prices are. Maybe they are very high? Maybe mine are too low since no one is complaining.......:laughing:


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## Tango

Here is some context: The capital is across the river (5 minutes) Between 2015-2016 over 320,932 permanent immigrants moved to Canada, mostly coming in the capital and most stay here. They are probably used to haggling over there and the wages almost nil? I'm not joking they try to haggle the cashier at the check out at Home depot! haha!:vs_whistle:

The rest of the population are very blood hungry for cheap stuff. Everything is expensive here so much so that major and higher quality stores have disappeared, leaving wally world, Target didn't make it after 2 years because they were higher priced than wally.

There are 94 plumbing companies and one man shop in the city of 225 000 spanning I'd say 50 km(30 miles). They don't all do service work, thankfully but there is a lot of competition. We are highly regulated, incredible money going out for several licensing, bond, city business permits etc. You cross the river where very little licensing is required and there may be 150 plumbing outfits? and hacks freely posting plumbing ads without being slapped on the wrists.

I'm the one who answers the phone, the majority ask the rate and approximate time it takes. The first question from 50% of the calls I get are what's the cost of this, even if you politely try to win them over they say thanks and call the next guy. Even if you say I can be there within the hour they need the price now or don't even bother it has to be cheaper. No wonder the store giant Target closed its doors within 2 years.

I tried to match the going rates but I knew I was going to fail very quickly with very little volume and all I got was low class. I did heavy research, implemented strategies to price myself higher so I could be profitable at a low volume, its starting to work and I'm getting a better clientele.


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## Ricky88

Tango said:


> Here is some context: The capital is across the river (5 minutes) Between 2015-2016 over 320,932 permanent immigrants moved to Canada, mostly coming in the capital and most stay here. They are probably used to haggling over there and the wages almost nil? I'm not joking they try to haggle the cashier at the check out at Home depot! haha!:vs_whistle:
> 
> The rest of the population are very blood hungry for cheap stuff. Everything is expensive here so much so that major and higher quality stores have disappeared, leaving wally world, Target didn't make it after 2 years because they were higher priced than wally.
> 
> There are 94 plumbing companies and one man shop in the city of 225 000 spanning I'd say 50 km(30 miles). They don't all do service work, thankfully but there is a lot of competition. We are highly regulated, incredible money going out for several licensing, bond, city business permits etc. You cross the river where very little licensing is required and there may be 150 plumbing outfits? and hacks freely posting plumbing ads without being slapped on the wrists.
> 
> I'm the one who answers the phone, the majority ask the rate and approximate time it takes. The first question from 50% of the calls I get are what's the cost of this, even if you politely try to win them over they say thanks and call the next guy. Even if you say I can be there within the hour they need the price now or don't even bother it has to be cheaper. No wonder the store giant Target closed its doors within 2 years.
> 
> I tried to match the going rates but I knew I was going to fail very quickly with very little volume and all I got was low class. I did heavy research, implemented strategies to price myself higher so I could be profitable at a low volume, its starting to work and I'm getting a better clientele.


Ever thought about doing business in a bigger city like Montreal instead? Maybe you can make a lot more $$$ and less cheap customers.


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## Gargalaxy

Ricky88 said:


> Ever thought about doing business in a bigger city like Montreal instead? Maybe you can make a lot more $$$ and less cheap customers.


Ever thought about doing a proper intro?


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## Spacepirate

I need to call my husband and i will call you back. Lol I literally laughed at that one.
We get a couple of those a day sometimes .
But everything Tango mentioned is so true


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## Master Mark

I got a lady yesterday called me... Her water softener imploded on her and spewed out the filter into the plumbing system clogging up 2 toilets and basically half the faucets in her 5 bathroom house..

she wanted a breakdown on what the new softener would cost then whhile I was there they picked up 2 toto toilets to change out and a couple of faucets to do in some other bathrooms 

.... then how much to blow out all the crap from the plumbing system ????

She was comparing prices between me and about 3 other plumbers.....:glasses:

I told her to send me some pictures of the special fuacest and toiiets she wanted changed out and I would get her a price together...asap

I never saw the pictures,,,, So I called her back and she was too busy to talk driveing kids to school, appointments ect.....

The house is stopped up with plastic resin and she expects me to drive 28 miles across town basically in a snow storm to estimate the job....with 3 other plumbers to compare to.......

I tell her that I cannot make it and am too busy ---
just send me the pictures.....

She dont want to send pictures to my phone and go to all that trouble because she is too busy .......:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:

So,I think I am gonna save myself a tank of gas and just stay home.....




...


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## Tommy plumber

Master Mark said:


> I got a lady yesterday called me... Her water softener imploded on her and spewed out the filter into the plumbing system clogging up 2 toilets and basically half the faucets in her 5 bathroom house..
> 
> she wanted a breakdown on what the new softener would cost then whhile I was there they picked up 2 toto toilets to change out and a couple of faucets to do in some other bathrooms
> 
> .... then how much to blow out all the crap from the plumbing system ????
> 
> She was comparing prices between me and about 3 other plumbers.....:glasses:
> 
> I told her to send me some pictures of the special fuacest and toiiets she wanted changed out and I would get her a price together...asap
> 
> I never saw the pictures,,,, So I called her back and she was too busy to talk driveing kids to school, appointments ect.....
> 
> The house is stopped up with plastic resin and she expects me to drive 28 miles across town basically in a snow storm to estimate the job....with 3 other plumbers to compare to.......
> 
> I tell her that I cannot make it and am too busy ---
> just send me the pictures.....
> 
> She dont want to send pictures to my phone and go to all that trouble because she is too busy .......:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:
> 
> So,I think I am gonna save myself a tank of gas and just stay home.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 













These people are unbelievable.


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## Tango

Here's another one to the list:

When they send pictures to your phone, they're price shopping and you won't get the job. EVER. Keep your hopes up mr. plumber!


I did 2 jobs for a woman this summer. She was happy I went there so quickly, chose me because I had the best reviews etc. She call me 2 days ago telling me there was a drip going downstairs into the neighbor's condo ruining the walls. AGAIN! The poor guy downstairs is already on his 3rd time that walls and ceiling are being damaged due to leaks above.

She proceeds to say they thought it was the toilet so they took it out to find out it wasn't it. They opened the wall above the toilet to find out there was a drywall screw in the 3" stack going to the toilet on the 3rd floor.


This time her voice was betraying her, she was price shopping and without realizing it I had the dumb idea to ask for pictures! I texted her it was a 1 hour job, looks like I didn't get the job. Keep your duct tape and clean bath towels to catch the drip, miss.

Looks like the cheapness disease strikes again. Obviously fidelity to an excellent service takes second place to the mighty dollar sign.


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## sycamorebob

Tango, not everybody is your customer, its up to you to decide if they are.
Example the other day I received a call about a busted hot water pipe, they said that they haven't had hot water for a week. Also he said the craw space was very small. I told him no problem I could cut a hole in his floor and repair the pipe from above. He said that he would try to find a smaller plumber to craw under his house and fix the leak. I said sounds like a plan to me. Good day

My first clue Called at 4:30pm Sunday. Second clue waited a week to call.
Third clue wife yelling in background "tell him everything".


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## MACPLUMB777

Tango said:


> Here's another one to the list:
> 
> When they send pictures to your phone, they're price shopping and you won't get the job. EVER. Keep your hopes up mr. plumber!
> 
> 
> I did 2 jobs for a woman this summer. She was happy I went there so quickly, chose me because I had the best reviews etc. She call me 2 days ago telling me there was a drip going downstairs into the neighbor's condo ruining the walls. AGAIN! The poor guy downstairs is already on his 3rd time that walls and ceiling are being damaged due to leaks above.
> 
> She proceeds to say they thought it was the toilet so they took it out to find out it wasn't it. They opened the wall above the toilet to find out there was a drywall screw in the 3" stack going to the toilet on the 3rd floor.
> 
> 
> This time her voice was betraying her, she was price shopping and without realizing it I had the dumb idea to ask for pictures! I texted her it was a 1 hour job, looks like I didn't get the job. Keep your duct tape and clean bath towels to catch the drip, miss.
> 
> Looks like the cheapness disease strikes again. Obviously fidelity to an excellent service takes second place to the mighty dollar sign.


TONGO
A good reason she may not have called you back is they found out it was a Condo problem, so they called whoever the Condo Plumber is, just saying


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## TheOfficeGirl

Not everyone is your customer. This is so true! I just deferred a heating call - problem has been going on two months, has had two other heating companies there and is "out $200 because it's not fixed (cheapo red flag #1)". Next question is if we don't fix it, does he have to pay? (cheapo red flag #2) ummm, we aren't dealers for your brand of furnace, perhaps you should call a dealer?


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## Tango

MACPLUMB777 said:


> TONGO
> A good reason she may not have called you back is they found out it was a Condo problem, so they called whoever the Condo Plumber is, just saying


I totally understand not everyone will be my customer. I'm getting better at weeding out red flags sometime orange ones. Eventually I'll be an expert in weed control!:biggrin:.

There's no condo plumber in that building, Its funny that she bought the place from a plumber/pipefitter I used to work with years ago. Anyway back to the story.

She's just cheap. The first time I went there her kitchen faucet was seized and she didn't want to have it rebuilt.
Second flag they removed the toilet themselves and opened the wall.


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## Pipelayer727

Master Mark said:


> I got a lady yesterday called me... Her water softener imploded on her and spewed out the filter into the plumbing system clogging up 2 toilets and basically half the faucets in her 5 bathroom house..
> 
> she wanted a breakdown on what the new softener would cost then whhile I was there they picked up 2 toto toilets to change out and a couple of faucets to do in some other bathrooms
> 
> .... then how much to blow out all the crap from the plumbing system ????
> 
> She was comparing prices between me and about 3 other plumbers.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I told her to send me some pictures of the special fuacest and toiiets she wanted changed out and I would get her a price together...asap
> 
> I never saw the pictures,,,, So I called her back and she was too busy to talk driveing kids to school, appointments ect.....
> 
> The house is stopped up with plastic resin and she expects me to drive 28 miles across town basically in a snow storm to estimate the job....with 3 other plumbers to compare to.......
> 
> I tell her that I cannot make it and am too busy ---
> just send me the pictures.....
> 
> She dont want to send pictures to my phone and go to all that trouble because she is too busy .......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So,I think I am gonna save myself a tank of gas and just stay home.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Plastic resin eh? Lawlypop.


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## Pipelayer727

Tango said:


> MACPLUMB777 said:
> 
> 
> 
> TONGO
> A good reason she may not have called you back is they found out it was a Condo problem, so they called whoever the Condo Plumber is, just saying
> 
> 
> 
> I totally understand not everyone will be my customer. I'm getting better at weeding out red flags sometime orange ones. Eventually I'll be an expert in weed control!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> There's no condo plumber in that building, Its funny that she bought the place from a plumber/pipefitter I used to work with years ago. Anyway back to the story.
> 
> She's just cheap. The first time I went there her kitchen faucet was seized and she didn't want to have it rebuilt.
> Second flag they removed the toilet themselves and opened the wall.
Click to expand...

They do have a "condo plumber."
Being from Florida I'm a expert on association/property management procedures. 
When a condo is purchased, you're liable for a number of things, but anything in the walls or under the slab/sub flooring is the associations responsibility. 
Would've been a good time to contact the association and weasel in on that paper.


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## MACPLUMB777

Thats the way I always tried to handle those jobs,

If it any size at all they will a some type Plumber on retainer or on call
to cover those Condo problems, that are not the Homeowners problem


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## Tango

Pipelayer727 said:


> They do have a "condo plumber."
> Being from Florida I'm a expert on association/property management procedures.
> When a condo is purchased, you're liable for a number of things, but anything in the walls or under the slab/sub flooring is the associations responsibility.
> Would've been a good time to contact the association and weasel in on that paper.


Interesting idea to contact the association, I guess the owner don't know that or the owners downstairs.

I bet the association still shops around when something like this happens.


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## Tango

Today an older couple hired me because of my reviews. They had low pressure/volume of water in their bath/shower. After changing some parts and using the water ram I got the flow like new. The woman was so happy she said it was like that for 17 years and couldn't wait to write me a good review. :smile:


Yesterday I was able to clear a kitchen line and install a c/o. The woman from overseas had her phone in her hands all the time probably using the stopwatch app. She asks when I come back with the final bill do you charge time to shuttle your tools to and from your truck. I replied yes and everyone does so. She retort "That's very unprofessional" I then tell her that I charge 15 minutes after the first hour when all others charge by 30 minutes and some only hourly. She was having none of it she was angry with knives in her eyes to pay the bill.

I'm borderline in refusing work for these people, always getting negative comments, sometimes insinuating its my fault for their hair ball in their pipes. Always angry to pay the bill etc. I think when I get a good volume of good customers they will be disqualified when they phone. Either that or a huge flat phone rate to cover this nonsense.


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## Master Mark

Tango said:


> Today an older couple hired me because of my reviews. They had low pressure/volume of water in their bath/shower. After changing some parts and using the water ram I got the flow like new. The woman was so happy she said it was like that for 17 years and couldn't wait to write me a good review. :smile:
> 
> 
> Yesterday I was able to clear a kitchen line and install a c/o. The woman from overseas had her phone in her hands all the time probably using the stopwatch app. She asks when I come back with the final bill do you charge time to shuttle your tools to and from your truck. I replied yes and everyone does so. She retort "That's very unprofessional" I then tell her that I charge 15 minutes after the first hour when all others charge by 30 minutes and some only hourly. She was having none of it she was angry with knives in her eyes to pay the bill.
> 
> I'm borderline in refusing work for these people, always getting negative comments, sometimes insinuating its my fault for their hair ball in their pipes. Always angry to pay the bill etc. I think when I get a good volume of good customers they will be disqualified when they phone. Either that or a huge flat phone rate to cover this nonsense.




The best thing you can do for these kind of people is plaster you sticker on everything in their house..... Odds are they will move sometime in the next few years and at the very least you will have the opportunity to take care of the next owner of the property......


I flew off the handle last week with a lady who had called me on satruday about a water heater... Told her we could do the heater on sunday if she wanted to pay more money for it... She opted for monday afternoon.....

It snowed 5 inches on Monday so we were running a little late from our first call and she called me at 12.30 directly and asked when we were gonna get there..... I told her sometime in the afternoon like we agreed to , then she begins to ball me out about saying we were supposed to be there at noon.
and she demands we install this heater today.... I told her we would ....

I apologise to her and say that we agreed to sometime in the afternoon which is between 12 and 5.... I tell her we will be there about 3.30.
Then she starts in again and I said we would be there at 3.30 again......

We get done with the mess we were in that morning and I call her at 3.30 to tell her we are on our way to her home...which is about a mile away ... She begins to ball me out again about ruining her day and how she could have gotten someone else to do the job instead of us.....

I fly off the handle at that point and tell her WELL WHY DONT YOU GO AHEAD AND CALL SOMEONE ELSE RIGHT NOW AND WE WILL JUST GO HOME FOR THE DAY.... I have apologized to you 3 times in this conversation already and that is my limit....... Now you make up your mind if you want hot water tonight or not.......yes or no??? :vs_mad::vs_mad: 

She gets all flabbergasted and huffey with because she usually can ball out her husband and children this way all the time ....... Then she wants to talk to the owner.... and I say you are talking to the owner...... 

do you want the heater installed today or not ....My partner is sweeping all the snow off his truck right now and can either come to your house or go home....

so what is it gonna be... yes or no.......???? She knows I am cheaper than many others in town so she finally shuts her trap and says to come out......

I was ready to tangle ass-ho/es with her once I arrived with the heater but she hid out of sight the whole time . She sat inside on her fat ass all day long and never realized how much snow had fallen in the city that day .....


.I suppose I should have apologized for the weather too....

So We installed the heater and she never stuck her nose down the stairs once..:vs_OMG::vs_OMG:.


----------



## Tango

Nice post Master Mark!

I'm still debating if I want to put stickers underneath kitchen sinks because most of the time the plumbing was reworked in the past and done improperly. The customers don't want everything to be redone. They only want me to fix the leak. I would't want to leave a sticker in that situation.

If there's a leak in the future and see my sticker they might call and say its my fault and want it free. If its my work ok, but they won't want to pay if its from something else. OR they hire another plumber and he sees the bad piping which I didn't do, I'll end up with bad a review and a bad name.

I'd like some opinions on this.



I was happy this morning to cut through BS in record time. This guy calls to say there a leak in a 3" ABS pipe, they opened the ceiling. 

Then he asks my rate and replies "I called around and you are the highest!" That's right I'm the highest because I got 5/5 stars and the highest number of reviews in the region. I ask you're shopping on kijiji? He says yes. (These are mostly hack ads with a few legit businesses) YELLOW FLAG

After probing he'd hired a hack paid him even though he didn't know how to fix it...they put silicone and its still leaking. Now he's saying with all that money spent if I'd be willing to charge less than 1 hour of work, he probably thinks free materials too.RED FLAG!

I quickly said no, good day and hung up. I'm really proud of this one and I had to share my experience. 

:smile:


----------



## OpenSights

Tango said:


> Nice post Master Mark!
> 
> I'm still debating if I want to put stickers underneath kitchen sinks because most of the time the plumbing was reworked in the past and done improperly. The customers don't want everything to be redone. They only want me to fix the leak. I would't want to leave a sticker in that situation.
> 
> If there's a leak in the future and see my sticker they might call and say its my fault and want it free. If its my work ok, but they won't want to pay if its from something else. OR they hire another plumber and he sees the bad piping which I didn't do, I'll end up with bad a review and a bad name.
> 
> I'd like some opinions on this.
> 
> 
> 
> I was happy this morning to cut through BS in record time. This guy calls to say there a leak in a 3" ABS pipe, they opened the ceiling.
> 
> Then he asks my rate and replies "I called around and you are the highest!" That's right I'm the highest because I got 5/5 stars and the highest number of reviews in the region. I ask you're shopping on kijiji? He says yes. (These are mostly hack ads with a few legit businesses) YELLOW FLAG
> 
> (After probing he'd hired a hack paid him even though he didn't know how to fix it...they put silicone and its still leaking. Now he's saying with all that money spent if I'd be willing to charge less than 1 hour of work,he probably thinks free materials too.RED FLAG!
> 
> I quickly said no, good day and hung up. I'm really proud of this one and I had to share my experience.
> 
> :smile:


100% perfect! Good job sir!


----------



## Master Mark

Tango said:


> Nice post Master Mark!
> 
> I'm still debating if I want to put stickers underneath kitchen sinks because most of the time the plumbing was reworked in the past and done improperly. The customers don't want everything to be redone. They only want me to fix the leak. I would't want to leave a sticker in that situation.
> 
> If there's a leak in the future and see my sticker they might call and say its my fault and want it free. If its my work ok, but they won't want to pay if its from something else. OR they hire another plumber and he sees the bad piping which I didn't do, I'll end up with bad a review and a bad name.
> 
> I'd like some opinions on this.
> 
> 
> 
> I was happy this morning to cut through BS in record time. This guy calls to say there a leak in a 3" ABS pipe, they opened the ceiling.
> 
> Then he asks my rate and replies "I called around and you are the highest!" That's right I'm the highest because I got 5/5 stars and the highest number of reviews in the region. I ask you're shopping on kijiji? He says yes. (These are mostly hack ads with a few legit businesses) YELLOW FLAG
> 
> After probing he'd hired a hack paid him even though he didn't know how to fix it...they put silicone and its still leaking. Now he's saying with all that money spent if I'd be willing to charge less than 1 hour of work, he probably thinks free materials too.RED FLAG!
> 
> I quickly said no, good day and hung up. I'm really proud of this one and I had to share my experience.
> 
> :smile:



If you are wise... 
you will tag every house you walk in with your sticker,,,, make it something that is bright yellow and glows in the dark... something that they cant miss .....and they cant scrape off easily either.... 

they are not gonna blame you for what someone else did before you got there.... they are clueless. and cant remember anything anyway..... 
Just plaster away with them..:vs_laugh: 

if you do this in every house you step into, on every water heater and disposal, and furnace too, the numbers will begin to add up really quickly.... 
before you know it, you have your name out in thousands of homes....... and within a year you will be getting calls back from people who did not remember who you were but say that they called you back cause they saw the sticker..... ( they are clueless---remember??) 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/DqLSBiR81hA2flT23

The sticker costs about 4 cents each.. and is there forever even decades from now........



cudos and congrads for hanging up on the tightwad 
as far as the dumbass you dealt with today why dinnt you tell him to go buy some gorilla tape and do the job himself..??..:vs_laugh:..


----------



## Tango

Master Mark said:


> as far as the dumbass you dealt with today why dont you tell him to go buy some gorilla tape and do the job himself....:vs_laugh:..



I'm pretty sure he thinks gorilla tape is too expensive and he'll try to find a better deal at dollar tree! HA!


----------



## Fatpat

Master Mark said:


> Tango said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice post Master Mark!
> 
> I'm still debating if I want to put stickers underneath kitchen sinks because most of the time the plumbing was reworked in the past and done improperly. The customers don't want everything to be redone. They only want me to fix the leak. I would't want to leave a sticker in that situation.
> 
> If there's a leak in the future and see my sticker they might call and say its my fault and want it free. If its my work ok, but they won't want to pay if its from something else. OR they hire another plumber and he sees the bad piping which I didn't do, I'll end up with bad a review and a bad name.
> 
> I'd like some opinions on this.
> 
> 
> 
> I was happy this morning to cut through BS in record time. This guy calls to say there a leak in a 3" ABS pipe, they opened the ceiling.
> 
> Then he asks my rate and replies "I called around and you are the highest!" That's right I'm the highest because I got 5/5 stars and the highest number of reviews in the region. I ask you're shopping on kijiji? He says yes. (These are mostly hack ads with a few legit businesses) YELLOW FLAG
> 
> After probing he'd hired a hack paid him even though he didn't know how to fix it...they put silicone and its still leaking. Now he's saying with all that money spent if I'd be willing to charge less than 1 hour of work, he probably thinks free materials too.RED FLAG!
> 
> I quickly said no, good day and hung up. I'm really proud of this one and I had to share my experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are wise...
> you will tag every house you walk in with your sticker,,,, make it something that is bright yellow and glows in the dark... something that they cant miss .....and they cant scrape off easily either....
> 
> they are not gonna blame you for what someone else did before you got there.... they are clueless. and cant remember anything anyway.....
> Just plaster away with them..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if you do this in every house you step into, on every water heater and disposal, and furnace too, the numbers will begin to add up really quickly....
> before you know it, you have your name out in thousands of homes....... and within a year you will be getting calls back from people who did not remember who you were but say that they called you back cause they saw the sticker..... ( they are clueless---remember??)
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/DqLSBiR81hA2flT23
> 
> The sticker costs about 4 cents each.. and is there forever even decades from now........
> 
> 
> 
> cudos and congrads for hanging up on the tightwad
> as far as the dumbass you dealt with today why dinnt you tell him to go buy some gorilla tape and do the job himself..??..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ..
Click to expand...



Mark! Who makes your stickers?


----------



## Master Mark

Fatpat said:


> Mark! Who makes your stickers?



The place I used is called Lambel Lables 317 849 6828

they are in Indy and will ship them out to you

You want them to come in perforated rolls of 250.. peel off easily


I suggest you make them "permanent stickers" that cant be easily removed 


also you want them laminated so water wont fade them out over 20 years..

of course you are gonna use a telephone number you expect to keep with you until you die.... I dont think its a good idea to put your address on the stickers..

and you want them to be stand out fairly bright with all your info and everything you do written in the details.... 
I have even considered making my next batch glow in the dark yellow..... My yellow ones look something like the energy guide you see on the heaters and furnaces... 


I had 10,000 of them made up for about 4 cents each....it worked out to under 500 bucks with shipping and the art work.... I am on my 4th run of them....

My sticker is a little large but works well as my business card too....
usually within a few months of handing them out and plastering them everywhere, you finally get
a few calls off of them and you " break even" on the whole investment.

then the money just starts rolling in..................... 

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgur...4DZAhVk34MKHclzBHEQMwgpKAEwAQ&iact=mrc&uact=8

Its like the gift that keeps on giving...clark :devil3:


----------



## Fatpat

Master Mark said:


> Fatpat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mark! Who makes your stickers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The place I used is called Lambel Lables 317 849 6828
> 
> they are in Indy and will ship them out to you
> 
> You want them to come in perforated rolls of 250.. peel off easily
> 
> 
> I suggest you make them "permanent stickers" that cant be easily removed
> 
> 
> also you want them laminated so water wont fade them out over 20 years..
> 
> of course you are gonna use a telephone number you expect to keep with you until you die.... I dont think its a good idea to put your address on the stickers..
> 
> and you want them to be stand out fairly bright with all your info and everything you do written in the details....
> I have even considered making my next batch glow in the dark yellow..... My yellow ones look something like the energy guide you see on the heaters and furnaces...
> 
> 
> I had 10,000 of them made up for about 4 cents each....it worked out to under 500 bucks with shipping and the art work.... I am on my 4th run of them....
> 
> My sticker is a little large but works well as my business card too....
> usually within a few months of handing them out and plastering them everywhere, you finally get
> a few calls off of them and you " break even" on the whole investment.
> 
> then the money just starts rolling in.....................
> 
> https://www.google.com/imgres?imgur...4DZAhVk34MKHclzBHEQMwgpKAEwAQ&iact=mrc&uact=8
> 
> Its like the gift that keeps on giving...clark
Click to expand...

Sweet Mark thanks!

Can you send post a picture of your sticker?


----------



## Tango

I'm going to take the plunge and try to find an online place to make stickers. I could use vista print as I've already have my template for my business cards, door hangers and huge magnets on my truck. However there is no options of stickiness or laminates. The cost is around 40 cents each(400 stickers) plus 20$ in shipping

The positive side are no need to rework the design and set up a new account and trying to figure out someone else's upload program.

I could always leave a door hanger in their cabinet taped to the side wall. I have a lot of left overs!


----------



## MACPLUMB777

Google flexographic printing company, put in your city and you will come up with someone thats what I did and found two company's in my area


----------



## GAN

I make up our own in the Building & Zoning department for approved, failed, trash can notices, etc.

This one from brother comes with software you can make anything you want and has the ability to use different size & color stickers.

https://www.amazon.com/Brother-QL-700-High-speed-Professional-Printer/dp/B005TJMC0S/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1517408294&sr=8-12&keywords=brother+label+maker


----------



## Tango

GAN said:


> I make up our own in the Building & Zoning department for approved, failed, trash can notices, etc.
> 
> This one from brother comes with software you can make anything you want and has the ability to use different size & color stickers.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Brother-QL-700-High-speed-Professional-Printer/dp/B005TJMC0S/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1517408294&sr=8-12&keywords=brother+label+maker


That's an interesting idea, is it only black and white? I want mine full color and on vinyl. I see other contractor paper stickers on things, they are always black & white, faded, wrinkled and looks like crap.

I'll want mine to stay colorful and crisp after 15 years. I'll have to shop for vinyl stickers a little larger than a business card.


----------



## 5onthefloor

Tango said:


> Yesterday I was able to clear a kitchen line and install a c/o. The woman from overseas had her phone in her hands all the time probably using the stopwatch app. She asks when I come back with the final bill do you charge time to shuttle your tools to and from your truck. I replied yes and everyone does so. She retort "That's very unprofessional" I then tell her that I charge 15 minutes after the first hour when all others charge by 30 minutes and some only hourly. She was having none of it she was angry with knives in her eyes to pay the bill.
> 
> I'm borderline in refusing work for these people, always getting negative comments, sometimes insinuating its my fault for their hair ball in their pipes. Always angry to pay the bill etc. I think when I get a good volume of good customers they will be disqualified when they phone. Either that or a huge flat phone rate to cover this nonsense.


These knuckleheads. From the time I get a signed approval to proceed with work, until I have collected your money, the time clock continues. I worked for a company that had flat rates and we charged $75 trip fee to buy non truck stock parts. I got complaints about this all the time. I would tell them that the time spent driving to and from supply house is me still working for you. Same goes if you're charging hourly. The problem nowadays is people just don't understand the concept of real work. Everything is free so they think that we should work for free. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Tango

Gan I found one of your previous post with 3 suggested sites on quality vinyl stickers, I will check those out.

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f4/stickers-64633/index3/


----------



## Tango

5onthefloor said:


> These knuckleheads. From the time I get a signed approval to proceed with work, until I have collected your money, the time clock continues. I worked for a company that had flat rates and we charged $75 trip fee to buy non truck stock parts. I got complaints about this all the time. I would tell them that the time spent driving to and from supply house is me still working for you. Same goes if you're charging hourly. The problem nowadays is people just don't understand the concept of real work. Everything is free so they think that we should work for free.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I've got a funny story to share after this brief call last night. This woman calls me asking the price to unclog something so I tried my new technique, do you want service tomorrow morning. She says yes but I'm shopping for prices. Politely I said I'm not interested, goodnight and hung up. No wasted time trying to convert her to hire a pro than a drano boy.

Which bring me to this awesome story :

I get a call this fall its a 3 story mishmash apartment building owned by some sort of patel spin-off. The tenant’s complaint is her basement bathtub and toilet are overflowing. The slumlord provided her with a shop vac the previous day. She has been vaccuuming the overlow since midnight unable to go to sleep as the tenants uptairs keep flushing and flooding the floor, she is bare feet!!!! Poor woman! (I got there at 1pm)

Theres a floor drain beside the toilet and see its full of expanded foam! I ask the owner what happened, he hired somone inexpensively from the kijiji ads. His solution was to put foam in the floor drain and put the offbrand drano in the tub wait 24 hours and that would solve the main drain blockage! :vs_laugh:

I got the line opened by pulling the toilet...I was going to remove the foam plug but he said leave it there it will help against future back ups!

After that he had no money on him, I had to wait for him to go to the bank. Upon his return he haggles on the materials and my time. Another nail on the coffin, another trial by fire experience.


----------



## Master Mark

Tango said:


> I'm going to take the plunge and try to find an online place to make stickers. I could use vista print as I've already have my template for my business cards, door hangers and huge magnets on my truck. However there is no options of stickiness or laminates. The cost is around 40 cents each(400 stickers) plus 20$ in shipping
> 
> The positive side are no need to rework the design and set up a new account and trying to figure out someone else's upload program.
> 
> I could always leave a door hanger in their cabinet taped to the side wall. I have a lot of left overs!



you are getting screwed good at that price.... 40 cents each is about 10 times higher than what i have paid Lamble lables of Indy....

You want them to be dog dirt cheap so you can hand them out like cheap candy to everybody...... 

at 40 cents each you are gonna be stingy about giving them away...
at 3 cents each you could wipe your butt with a handful of them and wont care... but I dont think the vinyl will clean up much off your ass ..:vs_laugh:

you do what you want to ..... call that Lambel Lable place and compare.....

I paid 3.5 cents each for 15,000 of them once and the last run I did 10,ooo and it was more around 4 c each...


Example...
this morning I get a call from a lady .... in the basement their were 4 water heaters feeding 4 units in this condo building...... 

We changed one out last month in the blizzard and I plastered my sticker on the other 3 heaters... I get a call this am and it was for one of the other heaters went out.... I Installed it this morning 


https://photos.app.goo.gl/hTMGZIkSIWVy5D503

https://s3-media3.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/yBiE-o8Jfg__ey6BEOqh7g/o.jpg

My total investment was about 14 cents for 4 stickers 

14 cents.......:biggrin:


----------



## Tango

Do Lambel Lable have a website, I tried searching but haven't found it or do they take only phone calls?


----------



## Master Mark

Tango said:


> Do Lambel Lable have a website, I tried searching but haven't found it or do they take only phone calls?




Here you go....... nice looking web site with plenty of pretty stickers.....:biggrin::biggrin::vs_whistle:

I never did a thing but speak to someone on the phone and they e-mailed me the proofs for the stickers I chose to make and that was it.... 

I paid with visa and they showed up at my door...


Be sure to make it a bright and happy sticker


http://www.lambel.com/


I got some competitors here in town and we seem to be playing a cruel game of covering each others stickers up.. There is a heating and air guy who has been pissed off at me for a few years now over this . I call it "sticker wars"


----------



## Tango

Thank you for all your help.


----------



## MACPLUMB777

GO HERE FOR LOCATIONS IN QUEBEC,CANADA

https://www.hotfrog.ca/find/flexographic-printing/qc

That is what that type of printing is called you can just GOOGLE it


----------



## Tango

Thank you Mr. Mac


----------



## Master Mark

Tango said:


> Thank you for all your help.



If you get around to calling this place I mentioned, I would like to hear
if their prices have stayed the same or gone up much.... I have been recommending them to some other guys around here....


----------



## Tango

Master Mark said:


> If you get around to calling this place I mentioned, I would like to hear
> if their prices have stayed the same or gone up much.... I have been recommending them to some other guys around here....


I've sent them an email but I did not get a reply yet.


----------



## Tango

Every week when I go to a customer the plumbing has been hacked by a handyhack, done by «an old plumber» who did side work, a one man general contractor who illegally did the tiles, plumbing, cabinets, electricity and so on.

The people complain the work was hacked, all crooked, tiles peeling or cracked, they took their money and ran. They tried to go after the contractor, he had used someone elses licence number, or they’re bankrupt what ever.

This leads to my frustration after I’ve shown them the diswasher waste is directly tied to the sewer side (I tell them its like washing your dishes in their toilet so they understand the concept), no hammer arrestors, no vents... I recomment redoing it correctly. When I start working they now complain to me that I’m expensive and say I wish I made that kind of money you are charging, parts don’t cost so much bla bla bla...

They got burned they know it and they have the notion that I should be cheap too but doing it correctly? It’s getting real old to explain for 15 minutes all the details about the real fees of my contractor licencing, city bussiness permits, insurances, bond and all overhead stuff. 

There’s got to be a better and quicker way to make my point across, any suggestions? :help:



Now story time :

Last week an old retired woman called me saying her washing machine valves needed to be replaced. The delivery guy couldn’t operate the valves properly when intalling the washer, the handles were stuck in the drywall and wouldn’t shut all the way the rubber were dried out and he made a mini flood in the basement. Her «old on the side work plumber» and who by the way ran pipes outside the walls to make a mini washroom. He was dead and that’s why she called me.

She wanted them further away from the inside wall. I then explained she needed arrestors by code if I was going to work on the pipes. She was fine with that. She knew the rates, We had a great time together talking while I worked. She was going to refer me to all her neighbors and she happy to pay the bill. A few days later she calls me and now she is angry, she showed the bill to neighbors and once again they said the parts don’t cost that much, my rate was too much, she didn’t want the arrestors... I politely explained but her neighbors convinced her that she should of been billed a hacker price!

AARRGHH! :bangin:


----------



## Fatpat

Tango said:


> Every week when I go to a customer the plumbing has been hacked by a handyhack, done by "an old plumber" who did side work, a one man general contractor who illegally did the tiles, plumbing, cabinets, electricity and so on.
> 
> The people complain the work was hacked, all crooked, tiles peeling or cracked, they took their money and ran. They tried to go after the contractor, he had used someone elses licence number, or they’re bankrupt what ever.
> 
> This leads to my frustration after I’ve shown them the diswasher waste is directly tied to the sewer side (I tell them its like washing your dishes in their toilet so they understand the concept), no hammer arrestors, no vents... I recomment redoing it correctly. When I start working they now complain to me that I’m expensive and say I wish I made that kind of money you are charging, parts don’t cost so much bla bla bla...
> 
> They got burned they know it and they have the notion that I should be cheap too but doing it correctly? It’s getting real old to explain for 15 minutes all the details about the real fees of my contractor licencing, city bussiness permits, insurances, bond and all overhead stuff.
> 
> There’s got to be a better and quicker way to make my point across, any suggestions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now story time :
> 
> Last week an old retired woman called me saying her washing machine valves needed to be replaced. The delivery guy couldn’t operate the valves properly when intalling the washer, the handles were stuck in the drywall and wouldn’t shut all the way the rubber were dried out and he made a mini flood in the basement. Her "old on the side work plumber" and who by the way ran pipes outside the walls to make a mini washroom. He was dead and that’s why she called me.
> 
> She wanted them further away from the inside wall. I then explained she needed arrestors by code if I was going to work on the pipes. She was fine with that. She knew the rates, We had a great time together talking while I worked. She was going to refer me to all her neighbors and she happy to pay the bill. A few days later she calls me and now she is angry, she showed the bill to neighbors and once again they said the parts don’t cost that much, my rate was too much, she didn’t want the arrestors... I politely explained but her neighbors convinced her that she should of been billed a hacker price!
> 
> AARRGHH!


Dude Tango,

Time and Material Sucks
Try Flat Rate for one week and it will change your world.

I don’t give itemized invoices, there is no explaining material mark up or why your rate is “higher” 

F That, F Explaining your business Fianacies, 
F Justifing your value to every customer.

You putting yourself through the mental torture of dealing with a customer breathing down your neck.

Take some advice, try something new.


----------



## Tango

Fatpat said:


> Dude Tango,
> 
> Time and Material Sucks
> Try Flat Rate for one week and it will change your world.
> 
> I don’t give itemized invoices, there is no explaining material mark up or why your rate is “higher”
> 
> F That, F Explaining your business Fianacies,
> F Justifing your value to every customer.
> 
> You putting yourself through the mental torture of dealing with a customer breathing down your neck.
> 
> Take some advice, try something new.



I've tried flat rate, you can read my post #9 of this thread. People want to know the price before you go there sight unseen. It worked on low income people but I lost most of the time because when I got there the place was a mess and it would take double or triple the time and materials of the phone quote.

I didn't find a better way to get an appointment. Every company here is T/M with a dispatch fee, I'm usually the 4th company they call because they refuse the dispatch fee. I get asked how much time it takes, the material costs etc. I give them an hourly rate and they think the 1 hour price is for 6 hours and materials included!!


I'm afraid If I go there without saying a phone price that I'll be driving all day giving quotes and be turned away.

If there is a good way to speak to the customer to get the appointment without wasting my time I'm all for it.

The only way I think might work is if I say I will go and see the the job and give you an exact price. If you refuse it will be 80$ fee or something??? Even that they'll think I'm scamming them into a huge amount. Like I said before I need suggestions for a better game plan.


----------



## Tango

Fatpat said:


> Dude Tango,
> 
> Time and Material Sucks
> Try Flat Rate for one week and it will change your world.
> 
> I don’t give itemized invoices, there is no explaining material mark up or why your rate is “higher”
> 
> F That, F Explaining your business Fianacies,
> F Justifing your value to every customer.
> 
> You putting yourself through the mental torture of dealing with a customer breathing down your neck.
> 
> Take some advice, try something new.


Right now on the bill it shows my hourly rate with the time it took. I write all the materials down and put only a total price for materials. In other words I don't write the price for each part.


I'm not complaining on these next paragraphs they are just observations so please bear with me.

Like Tommy said previously it may be my approach on this matter but I still want a go at flat rate. With flat rate I'd have to tell them a price and put taxes separately as its very high at 15%.

I wouldn't mind going to someones house for a service call giving a free quote if they are a couple of streets over for some jobs and hope they'll bite on the spot but most are over 30 minutes away (One way). 

I have many people tell me they didn't hire Mr. Roo across the river when their only toilet is clogged or something is broken and leaking because they don't give a price on the phone. Mr. Roo is flat rate and tells them they'll go look and see first. When they hear that they are turned off. I should call them to see if they have a dispatch fee. 
Sometimes I'm the second opinion on the job because another company showed up gave them a number and they thought it was too high, they shoed them away. Now I'm stuck giving a lower price than the first guy, On those occasions those particular jobs were difficult and dirty.

Another thing that is complicated for flat rate is that mysterious ceiling leak, it can take any where from 30 minutes to 3-4 hours to find it, open ceilings or walls, taking out shower escutcheon peeking in the wall, displacing the washing machine to cut a hole in the wall etc. It would eat up my time just trying to find the leak sometimes.


----------



## Master Mark

Tango said:


> I've tried flat rate, you can read my post #9 of this thread. People want to know the price before you go there sight unseen. It worked on low income people but I lost most of the time because when I got there the place was a mess and it would take double or triple the time and materials of the phone quote.
> 
> I didn't find a better way to get an appointment. Every company here is T/M with a dispatch fee, I'm usually the 4th company they call because they refuse the dispatch fee. I get asked how much time it takes, the material costs etc. I give them an hourly rate and they think the 1 hour price is for 6 hours and materials included!!
> 
> 
> I'm afraid If I go there without saying a phone price that I'll be driving all day giving quotes and be turned away.
> 
> If there is a good way to speak to the customer to get the appointment without wasting my time I'm all for it.
> 
> The only way I think might work is if I say I will go and see the the job and give you an exact price. If you refuse it will be 80$ fee or something??? Even that they'll think I'm scamming them into a huge amount. Like I said before I need suggestions for a better game plan.



we do time and material and its ok.... keeps me on the good guy side of things and makes us appear not to be crooks to many..... 

It all depends on the job you are doing..... The only thing I have found seems to help me is if they want a price over the phone then ask them to take a couple of pictures of the work to be done with their cell phones...and send them to you..... 
I am batting about 70% with this approach..especially with heaters , softeners .. 
Most people know how to do this and if they are too ashamed or lazy to send you a picture, then it means its a hell hole and probably best to move on... 

The phone thing has saved me miles of driveing and if they done want to co-operate and ----help you--help them.... its probably trouble ... 


this lady sent me a shot of her kitchen sink from across town..


----------



## Tango

Master Mark said:


> we do time and material and its ok.... keeps me on the good guy side of things and makes us appear not to be crooks to many.....
> 
> It all depends on the job you are doing..... The only thing I have found seems to help me is if they want a price over the phone then ask them to take a couple of pictures of the work to be done with their cell phones...and send them to you.....
> I am batting about 70% with this approach..especially with heaters , softeners ..
> Most people know how to do this and if they are too ashamed or lazy to send you a picture, then it means its a hell hole and probably best to move on...
> 
> The phone thing has saved me miles of driveing and if they done want to co-operate and ----help you--help them.... its probably trouble ...
> 
> 
> this lady sent me a shot of her kitchen sink from across town..


Its nice you get 70% success with phone pictures quotes. I like the idea and do that sometimes but they quickly realize they now can shop around for prices. I didn't win one of those yet.


----------



## Tango

Instead of explaining business costs each time I could tell them it takes 70 jobs like this one so I can buy my first loaf of bread.

On the positive side of T/M I never had to go out for free. I say my rate 1 hour minimum plus drain machines fee if I need to use them.


----------



## The Dane

Fatpat said:


> Dude Tango,
> 
> Time and Material Sucks
> Try Flat Rate for one week and it will change your world.
> 
> I don’t give itemized invoices, there is no explaining material mark up or why your rate is “higher”
> 
> F That, F Explaining your business Fianacies,
> F Justifing your value to every customer.
> 
> You putting yourself through the mental torture of dealing with a customer breathing down your neck.
> 
> Take some advice, try something new.


I see the logic in flat rate but also think it does not work in all areas. Most here are T/M the couple that are flat rate are big chain franchises and basically considered crooks here. I recently replaced a 40gal natural gas powervent heater for around $1300 after Ben Frank had quated them a price of around $3100. Yes flat rate can be good for both sides and gives the plumber a little better profit but you tell me why so often we see that flat rate is double of normal T/M rate and then tell me that it is fair

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


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## Master Mark

The Dane said:


> I see the logic in flat rate but also think it does not work in all areas. Most here are T/M the couple that are flat rate are big chain franchises and basically considered crooks here. I recently replaced a 40gal natural gas powervent heater for around $1300 after Ben Frank had quated them a price of around $3100. Yes flat rate can be good for both sides and gives the plumber a little better profit but you tell me why so often we see that flat rate is double of normal T/M rate and then tell me that it is fair
> 
> Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk




Their a number of flat rate guys in our town that literally hate my guts for this reason...... You were a little cheap at 1300 but ben was sky high at 3100... you need to raise that to 1800 and still win..........

I saved myself a few hours day today when a lady who did not know what she had in her cellar basement wanted a price for a new heater...She went down and to0k some pics for me and i quoted her aprice for a 50 gall on electric over the phone...

They are probably gonna shop it around, they all do this.....but at least I am not spending my day dicking around .... We will probably do the heater tomorrow.... 

This is a pic of another drain and faucet situation I had to bid yesterday...
I really dont care if I get the call or not, as long as I dont waste the day
driveing all over hells half acre playing the game...

I told them between 450 and 500 for new faucet and basket strainers...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Hm7jGSGXxSKqqmDK2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/JQWUTHmntCNZzrWs1


----------



## Tango

Here is your soap opera for this fine Saturday evening. I enjoy reading other people's stories so here is mine....

I just got back from a clogged kitchen sink line on the 1st floor condo (two floors above). The guy calls me saying his girlfriend is going crazy she DEMANDS to have the line unclogged now! Its now 5pm on a Saturday night.

I get there the faucet is dripping badly the spout is corroded smeared with silicone 1/2 inch thick. In the other sink sits a sump pump with a hose leading to the tub. The woman has been plugging the the brand new sump pump every hour for the last 2 days and both of them taking shifts at night to plug the darn thing!!! The kitchen is a mess the counter tops have sunk 4 inches in some places and clear tape where the laminate chunks has gone. He destroyed the strainer, the stainless ripped apart and tried a 10 dollar 10 foot hand spinner. He wanted to show me, I said no thanks, I go to shut off the main valve his lav sink almost totally rusted through. :vs_whistle:


He then tells me he’s a granite guy and he’s got a renovation company in the province across the river.(Where over there its a free for all, fake companies abound and fake trades persons) He complains that I’m expensive compared to his plumbers. I ask him why his plumber didn’t want to do the job? They wanted to wait for Sunday... I tell him your plumbers are surely unlicensed working cash under the table and they are not equipped either. (Thinking to myself they're probably dead drunk at this hour!)


He replies yes I pay them cash. There you go you have a pro show up in less than 40 minute with a 30 minute drive on a Saturday evening. I ask him as a contractor you hire illegals and what would happen if they flood or burn your client’s house that's worth over a million? You’re not insured for illegals, he replies I never though of that.:vs_no_no_no:


What I don’t get is this guy shows me pictures of million dollar homes with granite walls that he does and his condo is a real dump.


His girlfriend was extremely happy and quote "to have her life back". I was anxious to get paid and leave. He wanted my business card to propose some future work but the haggling he did I doubt I’ll want to work for him again and compete with his hacks as he pays them minimum wage or in beer cans. I see that sometimes!


----------



## The Dane

How about the typical one that I got today. Guy calls about a toilet backing up and into the tub too and wants to know how much it's going to be because he already called someone else and was told around $300 and he was not going to pay that kind of money for a 10 minute job because he could work all day long on it and still save money. I then tell him that we will be around the same price and if it was only a 10 minute job I was sure he would already have done it himself. I continue to then tell him that he might be lucky to get a handy hack that has no clue what he's doing to do it cheaper but to get a professional out (30 minute drive) on a weekend is going to be that much. If he would have called back I would have declined to work for him.

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


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## Tango

My guy was the same when he phoned the second time, I really didn't want to answer the phone and get involved. When someone sounds weird on the phone the job is usually a mess.

I'm glad this one is over.

By the way when I was there he wanted me to change the faucet thinking I'd do both in an hour! The copper pipes were soldered on, there was waste under the sink and a bar in between the doors so I wouldn't be able to slide under! I told him I didn't have a faucet one on the truck (I do have 2 models) he then says I'll get one(store are closed by the way) So I reply it'll be an extra 600$ knowing he'd back down. That was close!

I forgot to add, he had the city come to his condo this afternoon and check the sewer! They city workers opened the sewer grate then suggested to check a plumber on kijiji (like craiglist I suppose) to find a cheaper price but to make sure the guy was licenced.


----------



## 5onthefloor

Tango said:


> Here is your soap opera for this fine Saturday evening. I enjoy reading other people's stories so here is mine....
> 
> I just got back from a clogged kitchen sink line on the 1st floor condo (two floors above). The guy calls me saying his girlfriend is going crazy she DEMANDS to have the line unclogged now! Its now 5pm on a Saturday night.
> 
> I get there the faucet is dripping badly the spout is corroded smeared with silicone 1/2 inch thick. In the other sink sits a sump pump with a hose leading to the tub. The woman has been plugging the the brand new sump pump every hour for the last 2 days and both of them taking shifts at night to plug the darn thing!!! The kitchen is a mess the counter tops have sunk 4 inches in some places and clear tape where the laminate chunks has gone. He destroyed the strainer, the stainless ripped apart and tried a 10 dollar 10 foot hand spinner. He wanted to show me, I said no thanks, I go to shut off the main valve his lav sink almost totally rusted through. :vs_whistle:
> 
> 
> He then tells me he’s a granite guy and he’s got a renovation company in the province across the river.(Where over there its a free for all, fake companies abound and fake trades persons) He complains that I’m expensive compared to his plumbers. I ask him why his plumber didn’t want to do the job? They wanted to wait for Sunday... I tell him your plumbers are surely unlicensed working cash under the table and they are not equipped either. (Thinking to myself they're probably dead drunk at this hour!)
> 
> 
> He replies yes I pay them cash. There you go you have a pro show up in less than 40 minute with a 30 minute drive on a Saturday evening. I ask him as a contractor you hire illegals and what would happen if they flood or burn your client’s house that's worth over a million? You’re not insured for illegals, he replies I never though of that.:vs_no_no_no:
> 
> 
> What I don’t get is this guy shows me pictures of million dollar homes with granite walls that he does and his condo is a real dump.
> 
> 
> His girlfriend was extremely happy and quote "to have her life back". I was anxious to get paid and leave. He wanted my business card to propose some future work but the haggling he did I doubt I’ll want to work for him again and compete with his hacks as he pays them minimum wage or in beer cans. I see that sometimes!


I'd say he should make some demands himself but after reading your whole story I doubt she's clean herself. Sounds gross bro 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Tango

3 weeks ago This woman wanted her kitchen faucet replaced with a fancy one.

I tell her my hourly rate and I go there. I always have them sign the work order/bill because I've learned that some people believe what they want to hear. The plumbing under the sink was done by a hack fake contractor. I recommend redoing everything underneath which included valves, dishwasher connections etc.

She complains its expensive but she gives the go ahead. This morning she calls saying her sink is clogged. She also says her toilet upstairs is not working right.
I get there and she almost throws a fit saying she's not paying and its my fault the sink is clogged. I knew her pipes were nasty but I didn't think they'd completely clogg . I told her I'd start with the ropump. I wasn't going to clean the pipe with the snake. I got it going but told her that was it. I asked several questions to find out she's been putting coffee grinds in there. COME ON! I told her next clog she pays!

I ask her if she wants me to check her toilet and says no, plumber charge too much money!

She complained again that everything was expensive so I was about to lose my cool so I told her that's the difference in price between a pro and the fake contractor you hired. :vs_poop:


I'm thinking now to avoid future issues similar like this I'm going to put on my bill that drain cleaning is recommended when drain pipes are cut. I don't want to do free work again.

Any suggestions?


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## Master Mark

Lots of things ought to be put on your bill...in the lower fine print..
Its just part of doing business.....

Normally when we install a new disposal to a drain line we will automatically clean out the drain..... these people just want to push or test the work you did... 

Its wise to put something like a 30-60 day warranty or some other clause to cover yourself on this kind of work....


It dont happen enough to worry about,,,, just got to expect this kind of
issue once in a while from customers.......


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## Tango

Mark, do you have many clauses on your work order? If I wanted to put all the clauses in fine print I'm not sure I'll have room on the bottom of my 8 1/2" x 11" sheet. I'd have to make all these very small.

Also how small of a fine print can you go without trouble? I was told by the CRA(like the IRS I think) that I could make my bill/work order in any style I wanted. They were only pre-occupied by the taxes. That's probably my answer right there.(as small as I want?!)


I'm not sure if customers will swallow the pill when I say I have to clean the line in this situation for this____amount. 
Would it be better to write in fine print in the clauses OR have a check mark box?
If I tell them the line needs to be cleaned for the warranty and they refuse I'd check mark the box they refused.


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## Tango

One of the clauses I wanted to put in is the shut off valves when they are manipulated and they start leaking it is their responsibility to check for leaks after I'm gone and they are responsible to have it repaired or replaced.


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## Master Mark

Tango said:


> One of the clauses I wanted to put in is the shut off valves when they are manipulated and they start leaking it is their responsibility to check for leaks after I'm gone and they are responsible to have it repaired or replaced.




I have clauses on the bottom of my bill for what the rate is for unpaid bills..it works out to 18% a year 

also I have something about disclaimors on water heater installs....

e-mail me and I will send you a work order ==invoice I have used for 30 years.


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## TheOfficeGirl

We have a three part bill - the customer receives the middle copy which also has a page of fine print on the back of it (warranty, lien rights, change order and preauth for additional work). Front page is for us to match customers copy, third page is cardstock that the techs can take additional notes on and it won't be seen by customer. Designed with the assistance of an attorney


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## Tango

TheOfficeGirl said:


> We have a three part bill - the customer receives the middle copy which also has a page of fine print on the back of it (warranty, lien rights, change order and preauth for additional work). Front page is for us to match customers copy, third page is cardstock that the techs can take additional notes on and it won't be seen by customer. Designed with the assistance of an attorney



An interesting idea to have a separate page of waivers and warranty. I print my own invoices from my computer. 2 copies and I use a carbon paper in between. However it would be more paperwork to include another page.

If I made a separate sheet would you recommend the customer sign it?

I have to make my own waivers for now, no budget for lawyers yet. Also in my province a lien is not applicable on service work from what I understand. Anyone can easily get away with it. I could use the clause theft of service from the criminal code but I would never see a penny after court costs. Not to forget you have to hire a (bailiff??) then he can only send a letter or one phone call. Good luck getting getting paid!


----------



## Gargalaxy

This going in all my invoices and similar in my quotes. 

(Company name). has provided you with an upfront price for your project without regard to the specific amount of time it takes to complete. Therefore, a labor and material breakdown is not relevant or available for this project.

Payment for the Work is due upon receipt of invoice. If any payment is not timely received by (company name), Customer agrees to pay late charges and shall accrue at the rate of 1.5% per month (18% per annum) or the highest rate allowed by applicable law (Florida Statutes). Costumer agrees that it shall pay all costs and expenses including, but not limited to, reasonable attorney's fees, plus court costs incurred by (Company name) in the collection of any sum payable by Customer to (Company name) or its exercise of any enforcement or collection remedies.


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## Tango

Master Mark said:


> I have clauses on the bottom of my bill for what the rate is for unpaid bills..it works out to 18% a year
> 
> also I have something about disclaimors on water heater installs....
> 
> e-mail me and I will send you a work order ==invoice I have used for 30 years.



Thank you I received a copy!


----------



## WashingtonPlung

Master Mark said:


> Here you go....... nice looking web site with plenty of pretty stickers.....:biggrin::biggrin::vs_whistle:
> 
> I
> 
> 
> http://www.lambel.com/
> 
> "


Someone should call them up late and say they are shopping prices.:vs_laugh:


----------



## TheOfficeGirl

Tango said:


> An interesting idea to have a separate page of waivers and warranty. I print my own invoices from my computer. 2 copies and I use a carbon paper in between. However it would be more paperwork to include another page.
> 
> If I made a separate sheet would you recommend the customer sign it?
> 
> I have to make my own waivers for now, no budget for lawyers yet. Also in my province a lien is not applicable on service work from what I understand. Anyone can easily get away with it. I could use the clause theft of service from the criminal code but I would never see a penny after court costs. Not to forget you have to hire a (bailiff??) then he can only send a letter or one phone call. Good luck getting getting paid!



Tango - It's not too expensive to have it done professionally - I use www.Lighthouseprinting.com and it's about 25 cents/each depending on qty


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## Tango

TheOfficeGirl said:


> Tango - It's not too expensive to have it done professionally - I use www.Lighthouseprinting.com and it's about 25 cents/each depending on qty



I like printing them out as I can modify my invoices at any given time. Also up here nothing is cheap. I don't want to even know the cost of the designer and printing. 

What do you do when you have to destroy one because its halfway filled out and finally you don't do the job or the customer doesn't want to sign?


----------



## Tango

This is a little side story from today :

A woman caller this morning called for a clogged toilet and after questioning I deducted the 3 or 4" line was clogged not the toilet. She wanted someone on the spot, I told her I could go after my first job, she didn't want to wait till afternoon. She called the infamous RR from the other province. They went there free, gave a quote of 800$ and she freaked out and called me back almost at supper time. Now I told her my evening rate which is still a lot lower amount lower than RR but still she refused and kept on shopping.

She can't wait to use the WC but she spent the day shopping prices! :vs_laugh:


----------



## MACPLUMB777

Thats the way they are will work all week and a day and then call at 4:30 on Fri, and complain about over time chg's !
I used to get these calls all the time, Union Plumbers would work all day but they went home at 4:30 or 5m and then they would call me,


----------



## Tango

Master Mark said:


> you are getting screwed good at that price.... 40 cents each is about 10 times higher than what i have paid Lamble lables of Indy....
> 
> You want them to be dog dirt cheap so you can hand them out like cheap candy to everybody......
> 
> at 40 cents each you are gonna be stingy about giving them away...
> at 3 cents each you could wipe your butt with a handful of them and wont care... but I dont think the vinyl will clean up much off your ass ..:vs_laugh:
> 
> you do what you want to ..... call that Lambel Lable place and compare.....
> 
> I paid 3.5 cents each for 15,000 of them once and the last run I did 10,ooo and it was more around 4 c each...
> 
> 
> Example...
> this morning I get a call from a lady .... in the basement their were 4 water heaters feeding 4 units in this condo building......
> 
> We changed one out last month in the blizzard and I plastered my sticker on the other 3 heaters... I get a call this am and it was for one of the other heaters went out.... I Installed it this morning
> 
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/hTMGZIkSIWVy5D503
> 
> https://s3-media3.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/yBiE-o8Jfg__ey6BEOqh7g/o.jpg
> 
> My total investment was about 14 cents for 4 stickers
> 
> 14 cents.......:biggrin:


My stickers are in from Vistaprint, business card size with a gloss finish. After taxes not including shipping they came out at 49 cents each. The Lamble place never replied to my email. I ordered there because it was easy to make my own editing and I had already ordered business card from them. Some other printing places were more expensive as well. You have to remember in Canada we pay a lot more for everything.


----------



## Master Mark

Tango said:


> My stickers are in from Vistaprint, business card size with a gloss finish. After taxes not including shipping they came out at 49 cents each. The Lamble place never replied to my email. I ordered there because it was easy to make my own editing and I had already ordered business card from them. Some other printing places were more expensive as well. You have to remember in Canada we pay a lot more for everything.





If you are happy then that is all that matters..... I have made revisions to my sticker quite a number of times over the years..... 

We started out back in 75 with orange ones that were free from the supply house and you just stamped your name into the open space in the center....... you will burn through this batch and then you think to yourself ....hey lets change it .....its all part of the game 

the main this is you are throwing them out there


----------



## Tango

I ordered a 100 stickers and they look nice, a lot better than the ones I've seen from the companies around here, black and blue and wrinkled. I can be choosy where I leave them. Not everyone deserves to call me back. :wink:

The other day when I did the water heater I left a door hanger on the water pipe and a few business cards extending out the panel cover.


----------



## Master Mark

Tango said:


> I ordered a 100 stickers and they look nice, a lot better than the ones I've seen from the companies around here, black and blue and wrinkled. I can be choosy where I leave them. Not everyone deserves to call me back. :wink:
> 
> The other day when I did the water heater I left a door hanger on the water pipe and a few business cards extending out the panel cover.




Whatever floats your boat.... at 49 cents each 

you spent 49 bucks for 100 stickers right??.......

you are just testing the waters is all I can say.. I know you are gonna
burn through all of them in less than 2 weeks........They will probably
pay for themselves even at that high price 

Just keep looking for some place that will crank out
10,000 of them for you for dog dirt cheap and you will 
be living in the fast lane :vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


----------



## Tango

Master Mark said:


> you spent 49 bucks for 100 stickers right??.......


Yes I did. 42.50$ plus 15% taxes. Shipping was $7.85

I got 4 quotes. One was $3.50 a sticker, the other was around 50 cents a sticker but I had to provide a specific type of image. The other was ridiculous I won't even try to remember their price I deleted their reply instantly. I emailed a few other but didn't get any replies.


----------



## Master Mark

Tango said:


> Yes I did. 42.50$ plus 15% taxes. Shipping was $7.85
> 
> I got 4 quotes. One was $3.50 a sticker, the other was around 50 cents a sticker but I had to provide a specific type of image. The other was ridiculous I won't even try to remember their price I deleted their reply instantly. I emailed a few other but didn't get any replies.


 I would be willing to bet that these places get tons of bogus e-mails that they simply ignore... the same way I have ignored clowns asking me for my low price to snake a drain....

I dont know what a long distance call cost from toronto canada , but maybe you ought to try to call some places down here in the USA instead of e-mailing them and see what happens.... Calling them and giving them a mastercard number and they might take you serious....... 

I dont think Trump has put up any tariffs yet so you ought to be ok


----------



## Tango

I will do that next round.:thumbsup:


----------



## skoronesa

MACPLUMB777 said:


> TONGO
> A good reason she may not have called you back is they found out it was a Condo problem, so they called whoever the Condo Plumber is, just saying



Or some nearby handyman offered to fix it. I mean, two slip couplings and a short piece of pipe aint much. Or they contacted their insurance first and are just dealing with them right now.


----------



## Tango

skoronesa said:


> Or some nearby handyman offered to fix it. I mean, two slip couplings and a short piece of pipe aint much. Or they contacted their insurance first and are just dealing with them right now.


Talking about insurance. Someone wants something fixed but expects it free because they have involved the insurance. HA! Oh yeah you pay me first then present the bill to them.:vs_no_no_no:


----------



## Alan

Tango said:


> Talking about insurance. Someone wants something fixed but expects it free because they have involved the insurance. HA! Oh yeah you pay me first then present the bill to them.:vs_no_no_no:


"Do you work with American Home Shield?"

"....*click*"

:vs_mad:


----------



## Tango

Alan said:


> "Do you work with American Home Shield?"
> 
> "....*click*"
> 
> :vs_mad:


Nope we don't have that.

There is one thing that has been recurring is a marketing agency calls me about every 3-4 months wanting to sell me advertisement on a TV screen at only one supermarket. She was calling from a city 2 hours away and she didn't even know my company name or anything pertinent that looked professional while starting her speech. I've always said no and the last time I told the woman I've said no to her 3 times, she seemed surprised.

I did a little observation while I was at that supermarket. I was waiting in line and saw the screen, probably a 20" hung 20 feet away from the cash near the exit. The ad rotates every 20 seconds or so, even the renovation companies on there didn't legally have their licence number on it. Anyway not a single person glanced at it. after 3-4 minutes I got to pay for my groceries. 

What a waste of money, no one looks at that and second if someone sees the ad, decides to rummage for a pen or open their phone, by the time they're ready the ad is gone and you got to wait at least 5 minutes for it to come back...

That ad was over 600$ a month if I remember correctly. Next time I'll have a little fun with them. I'll ask a guarantee, if I get calls then I'll pay you. Any witty remarks for them?


----------



## fixitright

Never trust a realtor 

That is all.


----------



## Tango

fixitright said:


> Never trust a realtor
> 
> That is all.


I've dealt with only one and you are right.


----------



## Tango

A guy calls me this morning saying he and his wife took possession of a house this week and realized the bath overflow is leaking downstairs. He goes on to say its a hidden vice and he wants me to do a quote for him so he can hand it to the previous owner. He doesn't want me to fix it.

Sure I'll do that for my regular 1 hour fee. He was stunned I wasn't going for free! No charity work for you mister! Man I could write a book of things I hear in a single day.


----------



## Alan

fixitright said:


> Never trust a realtor
> 
> That is all.


"Oh yeah we're just waiting to send your payment until the sale is complete."

:vs_laugh:


----------



## Master Mark

Tango said:


> Yes I did. 42.50$ plus 15% taxes. Shipping was $7.85
> 
> I got 4 quotes. One was $3.50 a sticker, the other was around 50 cents a sticker but I had to provide a specific type of image. The other was ridiculous I won't even try to remember their price I deleted their reply instantly. I emailed a few other but didn't get any replies.




so how are those stickers holding up??? 

have you run out yet...???


----------



## Tango

Master Mark said:


> so how are those stickers holding up???
> 
> have you run out yet...???


Haha. I've installed only one in an access panel for the main water shut off for the guy with the exterior faucet.

It's been real slow, only one job a week for the past month. I get many immigrant price shoppers I could almost hire a secretary on some days. Price shoppers to unclog their toilet or main line. It wears my nerve down people wanting free work or want quotes to reno a complete bathroom with floating vanities, designer shower faucet for 200$ or whatever crazy low amount they think it costs.

Seriously the next accented person who asks for a bathroom reno estimate I'm going to say 35$. Maybe I should just ask how much they want to pay or if they want to trade for some naan bread and hommus. I want to hear their money logic.


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## Tango

I gave a sticker last week to a person who regularly calls me, 2 times for a clogged toilet and other stuff. He keeps forgetting my number even if I've given him some cards last time. I'm about to stick one on the toilet lid!:biggrin: I've given him more business cards, door hanger and sticker.

Here's my first official "stuck on" sticker for the exterior faucet job. I should of taken a picture of the ice buildup outside. oops


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## alant

I don't give prices over the phone, and i don't charge to go to the job unless its more than 25 minutes away. When i get to the job, i take a very close look, provide options in writing and present before doing any work. Talk with the customer, sell yourself and your company without being arrogant. You will learn a lot, eat some money on some jobs, but in the end when you get good at flat rate you will make more money.


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## Tango

alant said:


> I don't give prices over the phone, and i don't charge to go to the job unless its more than 25 minutes away. When i get to the job, i take a very close look, provide options in writing and present before doing any work. Talk with the customer, sell yourself and your company without being arrogant. You will learn a lot, eat some money on some jobs, but in the end when you get good at flat rate you will make more money.



That is fine in some areas where its a short distance. but I have over (a guesstimate) 90% "accented" price shoppers thinking for 20$ you will do a complete bathroom reno and 90% of them take 30 minutes to get to. Seriously how can you travel 30 minutes say to the person its going to be 400$ when they expected 15$ because all they know is 12$/hr minimum wage and a dollar store hammer and some limp nails are 3$. You do a 30 minute job it should be 7.50$
Yeah that's what I have to deal with.



Now moving on with local speech accent, I've listened to Master Mark, OpenSights, Debo, Tommy and others. I now give a price range at the end when they ask and I feel they are ready to hire me. In my experience people want to know what to expect to pay. If they like my reviews and want first class services they expect high rates and hire me. That's my niche. I'm still slowly moving towards flat rate.

If the first thing they ask is the price then I'm trying a new technique from an idea I got from a book. Results when I've tried it enough. I'm not sure if I want to travel give them a price and they say thanks and I'll call you back if your'e the cheapest. 

Don't ever forget Target closed down within a short time upon their opening because walmart was cheaper. 

Cheapness it the mightiest disease of them all!


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## Tango

Geez I'm ranting a novel....

I am however giving a free estimate tomorrow morning for someone 30 minutes away because I've replaced his shower valve in the fall. I have a good chance of getting it if his project is feasible.

I want to thank everyone who give out their advice. It is highly appreciated!


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## Debo22

Tango said:


> Geez I'm ranting a novel....
> 
> I am however giving a free estimate tomorrow morning for someone 30 minutes away because I've replaced his shower valve in the fall. I have a good chance of getting it if his project is feasible.
> 
> I want to thank everyone who give out their advice. It is highly appreciated!


For me, repeat customers and referrals always get a free estimate/trip because I feel the job is already mine. 
New customers get a guesstimate over the phone if they ask. The dreaded accent call doesn’t get a call back. My wife says it’s racist not to call them back because of their accent but I let her know it’s not their race, it’s their culture of exchanging money for services that I have a hard time with. 
So I guess I’m not racist, I’m a culturist. I’m fine with any race that is Americanized.


----------



## Tango

Debo22 said:


> For me, repeat customers and referrals always get a free estimate/trip because I feel the job is already mine.
> New customers get a guesstimate over the phone if they ask. The dreaded accent call doesn’t get a call back. My wife says it’s racist not to call them back because of their accent but I let her know it’s not their race, it’s their culture of exchanging money for services that I have a hard time with.
> So I guess I’m not racist, I’m a culturist. I’m fine with any race that is Americanized.


My girlfriend doesn't think it's racist for the accents (That's what I'm going to call them from now on) Every call I get when she's there I always put it on speaker phone. She knows the outcome. There's stereotype and then there's a reality check.

I know one accent who does carpentry, he's easy to get along with. I got to talking to him and he said he came from overseas and in his country when you wanted to build something you had to go cut down a tree and shave it. When he moved here and went to the hardware store for the first time he saw squared 2x4 lumber, he kneeled before the pile like he'd seen god.

One time in my very begining I got an accent to pay for my estimate and he'd get a credit if we'd proceed with the job, yes he paid!! I went there and he wanted a 3 piece bathroom in a basement living room without digging to save money with a saniflow system. I would of had to open his walls all the way to the attic for the vent. When I gave him the price the guy was outraged like the sky had spitted spirits into this world. He cussed and roared like war drums. He saw the saniflow at HD for 300$ and he thought the plumbing materials including the labor would be less than 250$!! I'm not kidding.

I was so freaking glad to keep the estimate money as I had researched high and low, counted every single fitting without any back up amount for screw-ups. That was an important lesson.


----------



## Pipelayer727

Tango said:


> Geez I'm ranting a novel....
> 
> I am however giving a free estimate tomorrow morning for someone 30 minutes away because I've replaced his shower valve in the fall. I have a good chance of getting it if his project is feasible.
> 
> I want to thank everyone who give out their advice. It is highly appreciated!


You're welcome


----------



## Master Mark

Tango said:


> My girlfriend doesn't think it's racist for the accents (That's what I'm going to call them from now on) Every call I get when she's there I always put it on speaker phone. She knows the outcome. There's stereotype and then there's a reality check.
> 
> I know one accent who does carpentry, he's easy to get along with. I got to talking to him and he said he came from overseas and in his country when you wanted to build something you had to go cut down a tree and shave it. When he moved here and went to the hardware store for the first time he saw squared 2x4 lumber, he kneeled before the pile like he'd seen god.
> 
> One time in my very begining I got an accent to pay for my estimate and he'd get a credit if we'd proceed with the job, yes he paid!! I went there and he wanted a 3 piece bathroom in a basement living room without digging to save money with a saniflow system*. I would of had to open his walls all the way to the attic for the vent*. When I gave him the price the guy was outraged like the sky had spitted spirits into this world. He cussed and roared like war drums. He saw the saniflow at HD for 300$ and he thought the plumbing materials including the labor would be less than 250$!! I'm not kidding.
> 
> I was so freaking glad to keep the estimate money as I had researched high and low, counted every single fitting without any back up amount for screw-ups. That was an important lesson.





I dont know if you were planning on taking out a permit on this job or not.... we have run into this issue before and have had to simply make concessions as to how to install some kind of vent without going up 3 stories through the guys house.... to the roof...

If it is nearly impossible to do the job without tearing the whole place apart and making the job so expensive that it falls through, I have had to find other ways to get a re-vent for them.......I have even seen vents poked out the side of the house before.... 

I am not in favor of it but sometimes the rules have to be bent a little bit or going totally by the book will kill the job......


----------



## Tango

Master Mark said:


> I dont know if you were planning on taking out a permit on this job or not.... we have run into this issue before and have had to simply make concessions as to how to install some kind of vent without going up 3 stories through the guys house.... to the roof...
> 
> If it is nearly impossible to do the job without tearing the whole place apart and making the job so expensive that it falls through, I have had to find other ways to get a re-vent for them.......I have even seen vents poked out the side of the house before....
> 
> I am not in favor of it but sometimes the rules have to be bent a little bit or going totally by the book will kill the job......



We are allowed to vent on the side however in that particular case it would of been too close to the window, patio door and property line.

In reno's we are allowed an auto vent for a sink if you'd have to open a wall and a ceiling for a regular vent. If only one of the two needs to be opened then the code says a vent. 2nd rule there must be already a vent in that area for the other fixtures.


----------



## GAN

Illinois all vents must be within the structure and we can't use any mechanical type period.

I have ran them up an interior corner and placed a piece of wall board or paneling. Up through the corner of a closet, Out into a garage then up. In the garage though "fire stopping" should be performed at all drywall penetrations with a Crush Collar. The into the attic, install increaser for frost closer protection and out the roof.


----------



## Tango

Master Mark said:


> I dont know if you were planning on taking out a permit on this job or not.... we have run into this issue before and have had to simply make concessions as to how to install some kind of vent without going up 3 stories through the guys house.... to the roof...
> 
> If it is nearly impossible to do the job without tearing the whole place apart and making the job so expensive that it falls through, I have had to find other ways to get a re-vent for them.......I have even seen vents poked out the side of the house before....
> 
> I am not in favor of it but sometimes the rules have to be bent a little bit or going totally by the book will kill the job......


City permits in my area are so vague that no one cares even the city. If it's not structural then you can do practically what you want. I did my basement bedroom, no permit(ok) I did my foundation waterproofing (no permit ok). I needed a permit for my shed (60$) and they told me the max size and height and it had to match the house and garage. If you don't get a permit and when they check your house every 5 years they'll say come and pay for it, no fines or interests. 


Now going to the welfare/convict/crazy insane neighbor I have he's built a ton of things with garbage junk it looks like Haiti bidonville. From 3 sheds, decks, 2nd floor balcony enlarged windows etc. He only rents the place! On top of that he started to play his radio at 4am burning garbage to heat his weed grow op. I can't sleep and no one else complains grrr. Anyway the city checked the place last fall and since then nothing. I guess they don't care. I wish he'd go back to prison so I can get a better neighbor.

I forgot to add as soon as I have enough money saved up I'm building a Berlin wall so I can't see him through the sparse cedars.

There are other province regulations for plumbing but that's for private messaging if anyone is interested.


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## fixitright

Realtors still are a pain


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## Tango

fixitright said:


> Realtors still are a pain



Ha, I got a good laugh! Come one tell your story you know you want to.


----------



## fixitright

Tango said:


> Ha, I got a good laugh! Come one tell your story you know you want to.


I had no idea the US Postal service takes four weeks to get a letter with a check for me to get here. 

Well, in all honesty it's still not here.

Is the pony express still going?

The realtor said it's in the mail.


----------



## Alan

Alan said:


> "Oh yeah we're just waiting to send your payment until the sale is complete."
> 
> :vs_laugh:


We got another one of these today. A buyer is calling us asking us to fix a leak on a house that is in the middle of escrow.

No, you don't own the house, so legally we cannot perform work on it just because you want us to.

Later the real estate agent called with the same story since his buyer didn't make any headway.

You have our number. Give it to the owner. If they want the leak fixed before the sale they will call us. If not, you can call us after the sale and we will be there to fix it for you.

Why is this so difficult?


P.S. I got a quote on those labels from Lambel. 9.5 cents each for 1000 plus a one time 30 dollar plate fee. 2 1/2 x 4 1/4" label printed on a durable polypropylene with lamination to protect the label.

I could probably get a lower price if I bought more but since i'm not working yet, cash flow is zero and 1000 will probably last me a year ish.


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## MACPLUMB777

When I signed up with State Inds, water heaters back in the early 90's
they sent me free stickers, to put on water heaters but I had my guys
put them on everything, 

State now owned by A.O. Smith,


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## Alan

MACPLUMB777 said:


> State now owned by A.O. Smith,


And they are junk. I have had the worst luck with them. One I was going to install but the threads for the t&p had a blob of slag in it and I couldnt get it to even start.

The worst one was one of those ones in a mobile home 4 feet in the air in a tiny closet. Got it all in there hooked up and filling and the friggin thing was puking water out of the top electrical component cover.

After I got it shut off and drained down enough to look at it, I discovered that there was an even larger blob of slag in the threads for the element. At least 1/4" shy of engaging the gasket.

Well, I drained that one down and yanked it out and started over with a new tank.

😤


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## M&S

Amen to this thread x 100!!!!!

I love the, "What if I supply the material?" guy

Especially when he buys the wrong stuff, expects you to honor the reduced rate even though you have to spend your time to go buy material, and THEN HAS THE BALLS to ask me to return his wrong part or buy it from him. 

SERIOUSLY????


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## Tango

M&S said:


> Amen to this thread x 100!!!!!
> 
> I love the, "What if I supply the material?" guy
> 
> Especially when he buys the wrong stuff, expects you to honor the reduced rate even though you have to spend your time to go buy material, and THEN HAS THE BALLS to ask me to return his wrong part or buy it from him.
> 
> SERIOUSLY????



The only things I let the customers supply are faucets, fixtures, water heater. They need to be of good quality. If they want to supply their materials I know right away I'm heading toward cheap asses who will complain about the bill.

Luckily the one who say they will supply their part usually don't hire me anyway because I'm too expensive.

When they don't tell me I use the little amount of fittings and parts they have. It makes them happy to save a few dollars. I won't install crap parts though and I'll explain it to them I don't want to be responsible.


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## jnohs

This is a great post... I will add to it.


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## jnohs

1st... [email protected]#$ time and materials.... This put tthe customer into uncomfortable feelings. And some one once said "customers do not remember the job you did. They remember how made them feel. " and as they wait 1 to 5 hours for you to finish the job the whole time they are concerned about the price. What's it going to be. How much are the materials. 
When is the last time you paid for anything before you knew the price.... I wouldn't do it.. you mentioned in the first post that most of the customers around here can not afford flat rate.... but really flaty rate reflects the hourly rate for a particular job that includes everything you need make a profit. Also the entire tome you are doingv the job... sense they know the price they can go get the money while u work.


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## jnohs

As for dispatch fees. I use them at my discretion. Yah if the customers calls and wants some 1 there during business hours. 8 to 4. And if they are cool. Meaning they don't say the word quote or estimate more than once. Ok mr.so and so, no problem sir we will see you on Tuesday at 10 thank you.
Next customer calls and immediately say in need a plumber to do blah blah blah. It's not a big job... its not rocker science. I would do it my self blah blah blah. Ok mrs.soandso we can be there sense at at 3. There is an 89$ dispatch fee. If you perform any work we waive the fee... if she says yes great....if no. Good bye
Next customer. Hi need a plumber can you come by at 6pm... I say sure no problem it is a 89 dollar dispatch fee. If you do the job we waive tyhe fee. If yes great if no bye..

Next customer calls..at 8pm. my kitchen sink is clogged can u come over
. Sure we can but there is a night time dispatch service fee of 189. If you do the job we waive the fee.. then I say but sense it is not a true emergency if you can wait till the morning the dispatch fee drops to $49. With this call now the customer knows you truly have there best interest at heart... heck you are already giving them the option to wait 10 hours to possibly save money. The "feeling they will have will be comfort and they will make a decesion based on thought not emotion. And usually they also say yah know what come In the morning. 
Then there is the holly grail... you pick up the phone and the customer sounds like a dream customer. They say the magic words"i need a plumber" they explain the job graciously and in the end say "um do you have a dispatch fee" ding ding ding. Winner winner winner. Yes mam. The way we work it is the is an 49$ dispatch fee. If we perform any work we waive the fee. They say great see u tomorrow. 
Next customer.. Yah how much do you charge to put i n a toilet bowl.. <obvious price shopper> spend a 2 minutes and listen. Then blurt out your number and see if he bites.. if yes great of no bye.. 
There will be no sale if value does not exceed price!
Service is selling and sellingv is service


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## jnohs

As for dispatch fees. I use them at my discretion. Yah if the customers calls and wants some 1 there during business hours. 8 to 4. And if they are cool. Meaning they don't say the word quote or estimate more than once. Ok mr.so and so, no problem sir we will see you on Tuesday at 10 thank you.
Next customer calls and immediately say in need a plumber to do blah blah blah. It's not a big job... its not rocker science. I would do it my self blah blah blah. Ok mrs.soandso we can be there sense at at 3. There is an 89$ dispatch fee. If you perform any work we waive the fee... if she says yes great....if no. Good bye
Next customer. Hi need a plumber can you come by at 6pm... I say sure no problem it is a 89 dollar dispatch fee. If you do the job we waive tyhe fee. If yes great if no bye..

Next customer calls..at 8pm. my kitchen sink is clogged can u come over
. Sure we can but there is a night time dispatch service fee of 189. If you do the job we waive the fee.. then I say but sense it is not a true emergency if you can wait till the morning the dispatch fee drops to $49. With this call now the customer knows you truly have there best interest at heart... heck you are already giving them the option to wait 10 hours to possibly save money. The "feeling they will have will be comfort and they will make a decesion based on thought not emotion. And usually they also say yah know what come In the morning. 
Then there is the holly grail... you pick up the phone and the customer sounds like a dream customer. They say the magic words"i need a plumber" they explain the job graciously and in the end say "um do you have a dispatch fee" ding ding ding. Winner winner winner. Yes mam. The way we work it is the is an 49$ dispatch fee. If we perform any work we waive the fee. They say great see u tomorrow. 
Next customer.. Yah how much do you charge to put i n a toilet bowl.. <obvious price shopper> spend a 2 minutes and listen. Then blurt out your number and see if he bites.. if yes great of no bye.. 
There will be no sale if value does not exceed price!
Service is selling and sellingv is service


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## jnohs

This app sucks!


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## jnohs

App sucks!


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## jnohs

Not posting my post!


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## Debo22

Good to see you back Jnohs :vs_cocktail::vs_wine:


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## Tango

Awesome post jnosh! Clear examples that I can understand. :vs_cool:


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## The Dane

jnohs said:


> When is the last time you paid for anything before you knew the price....


Yesterday getting my car repaired. Week before it was the electrician. 2 weeks before that it was the carpenter. So actually all the time because around here we still trust each other and do business on a handshake when it's not too much money at stake. I would agree with you on the feeling comfortable with the flat rate but just as when on T/M the customer is wondering about final price, when he is on flat rate after the job he will often feel taken advantage of thinking it was a lot of money for a short time. With T/M customers always only pay for exactly what they got. With flat rate the price is supposed to average out the cost of a job witch means some pay too much and some not enough. But but but in reality everyone that says flat rate is more profitable and better can then only say so because they have billed the average cost plus a little bit extra for unforseen problems. Unforseen problems was already accounted for when averaging the time a job takes. Here several people have told us that flat rate left them feeling like their but hurt in a way that make them walk funny (you know what I mean).

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


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## Tango

The Dane said:


> Yesterday getting my car repaired. Week before it was the electrician. 2 weeks before that it was the carpenter. So actually all the time because around here we still trust each other and do business on a handshake when it's not too much money at stake. I would agree with you on the feeling comfortable with the flat rate but just as when on T/M the customer is wondering about final price, when he is on flat rate after the job he will often feel taken advantage of thinking it was a lot of money for a short time. With T/M customers always only pay for exactly what they got. With flat rate the price is supposed to average out the cost of a job witch means some pay too much and some not enough. But but but in reality everyone that says flat rate is more profitable and better can then only say so because they have billed the average cost plus a little bit extra for unforseen problems. Unforseen problems was already accounted for when averaging the time a job takes. Here several people have told us that flat rate left them feeling like their but hurt in a way that make them walk funny (you know what I mean).
> 
> Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk



Good point Dane. Today a guy wanted his kitchen faucet replaced and exterior faucet was dripping a lot. I told him to expect 3 hours of work. It is very rare a customer wants me to supply a faucet. This time all went well except me getting locked in my van, more after this. Anyway it took me 2 hours to complete the tasks, he seemed happy that it would cost less than expected. On T/M I presume people think the hourly rate is that final number and they know better when their shown the bill compared to a huge upfront flat rate number.

I did the shower column flat rate, today T/M. I gave 2 flat rate quotes one for a new shower and pipes, one for a kitchen sink repipe. I think I won't get the quotes, the numbers are high.


For the finale, I went into my van and the wind closed the doors behind me, I went to get out and the doors were locked. Luckily I turned on the roof lights and sat on a bucket to think was I was going to do. I pulled the panel with improper tools and tried to play with the door handle rods, some of them popped off and one plastic bracket broke as it was dry and brittle. I pried but I didn't want to damage more stuff. I was able to spread the doors apart a little bit and tried "a bunch of I don't know". it opened!!

Once outside I realized the child lock had engaged. I freaking screwed a washer so I would never engage again.


----------



## jnohs




----------



## Tango

Awesome! :vs_laugh:


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## jnohs

I wrote this before but it didn't post. Here we go again .. 
Hourly vs flate rate..
Hourly:
When u go to a customers house and attempt to make a sale with an hourly sale approach. It is difficult. Why because even u don't know what is going to cost.. when is the last time that you purchased anything and you didnt know the price.. I wouldn't do it..And for the customer they don't like the feeling. And "customers do not remember the job you did. They remember how u made them feel." And on an hourly basis they were agitated the whole time 1 to 5 hours what's it gonna be... what's it gonna be. And no matter what in The end that are not going to be to pleased. I mean you just gave them 3 hours of ogeda and the more ogeda the higher the price. Not a good feelingand they will remember that. As far as flat rate goes you mentioned that around you the flat rrate won't work because it cost to much. I am going on a limb here. But I would imagine that from the original post which was about what you have learned... I though it was generally negative post.. it was not full of this is great I keep getting more and more customers and everything is going great. While I believe there are parts of your business you do like. This particular post was about customers , landing jobs and how friggen annoying they can be. 
Now flat rate:
Flat rate is engineered so you make profit. Which is money. So if people are telling you it costs to much then if they are right then non of us flat raters can ever make it.. But they are wrong. Dead wrong. And a lot of this is you getting past your self and not letfing a bunch of pain in the ass lowballing customers that you don't even want, telling you that you are not worth it.YOU ARE WORTH IT! IF YOU ARE A GOOD PLUMBER YOU DESERVE A HOUSE A CAR A BOAT A VACATATION. AND A HOBBY! Minimum. And you get that with correct pricing. I have made a price sheet that is 6 pages and covers 95% of all plumbing. You give them a line item quote. Every task has a price. Example of a small quote: to repair leaking lead bend

Pull and rest toilet line item 389
Chang supply valve lone item 189
Cut remove lead bend and melt out lead from Cast iron line item 189
Install 3ft of 4inch pvc and 5 fittings line item 389
Total---1156

This way the customer can see how you got to this rideclous number. And really at that point you will be able to defend it. Each task has a price to it. Each 1 of those task can be there own job. So shouldnt it be the same price here. Just because you are doing a few more things here doesnt mean anything. If line item number1 is pull and reset toilet bowl and let's say you would charge 389 for that. Well it is always 389. When it is the only thing you are doing there or if it another line item it is all ways only worth to do it if you get 389. Every time. After all the hoopla. You get the bottem and yes hopefully if do e right you will be getting more for these jobs.. 
Now this is where it really gets different and better. You sell the job. And now the customer is not anxious the entire time you are and they feel great. No worries about what's it going to cost... how much longer. Or if you are going to use extra materials... no arguments I. The end. All uncomfortable discussions have been made in the beginning. So they feel good and you explained everything to them. Now while you are working they can go get the money. You will have way less problems collecting in the end. Way way less. Because of humane nature. With time and materials they never know the price so even though they agreed they really were just signing and hoping for the best. With flat rate when they sign they know the exact price and signed. And again human nature takes over here. Because it was a way more rock solid quote and they completely knew the price if they sign you will get paid expectantly 99.999% of the time. I have gotten 2 bounced checks in 6 years and one person was so sorry she gave me an additional hundered.
The other lady.. Well she's just an ass.


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## jnohs

I will say that all my jobs are profitable and some more than others. I am not here to average out and simp me paycheck... again also the price has nothing to do with a customers section. Example I was at my supply house the other day and this guy was sitting there akwakk g about how he got 2500 for a water heater the other day.. He thought he was the best sales men In the world.. He went out at 1000 in the night and in his mind get it over on this customer... news flash. I consistent sell 50 gallon gas water heaters way above that price and defiantly not at 10 in the evening. Valu value value service service service. A little example.
Install 40 gallon AO Smith gas water heater. 1300
Upgrade to 50 gallon water heater additional 289
Upgrade gas piping to 34 up to 8 ft 289
Install thermostatic mixing valve and expansion tank 589
Cart away old unit 100
Total--2877
I sell this oonce a week. Not to brag. Well may be a little. But more to the point of mind set and truth. I am not screwing any body. Each line item is a job and every job has a price to it.
But Pricing is important to me. It why I offer as much service that I can. Companies around here advertise 189 for a boiler cleaning. **** THAT. We charge 489 for a oilboiler cleaning. And for wall hung it is 689. My wannabe plumbing friends who don't own business say I am crazy. **** even my partner when I took hiim on was pissed. But I explains to him that yah you might do 3 boiler cleanings to my 1. But we both made the same amount of money. Except I only work 2 hours where he work 6. A d i have a great customer who just wants it done correctyl he has landed 3 pain in the ads price shopping customers. Except I really wouldn't xall them customers because next time if he isn't the cheapest again they are not going to use him. Whikl e I have picked up a customer who doesn't want to get screwed but more importantly wants it done correctly.... hello rubber duck pplumbing how can i help u...? 
It is the customers job to get it done correctly. It is your job to do that for them for as much $ as possiable.


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## jnohs

Tango. There numerous ways to get ahead. But a one man shop is not the end game. If value does not exceed cost there is no sale. We offer a 2year warranty on all instaltions and repairs. Also we accept no money until we are done and they are happy. Always doing everything we can to introduce our selves be patiant. Listen ask questions. Give a detailed quote. Use drop cloths when needs. Use boot covers when needed. Offer a 2year warranty. No money at all until complete and they are happy. Cash check or credit. Payment upon completion. All of that is service service service. And that is selling selling selling. After all that then we can some plumbing.


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## Tango

jnohs said:


> But I would imagine that from the original post which was about what you have learned... I though it was generally negative post.. it was not full of this is great I keep getting more and more customers and everything is going great. While I believe there are parts of your business you do like. This particular post was about customers , landing jobs and how friggen annoying they can be.



It was meant to laugh at. What I didn't mention the majority of these were from accented people. Like I mentioned a couple of times for them their only toilet that has clogged overflowing for 4 days and they've been trying the 2$ plunger for that amount of time that they think it should be 12$ for a plumber. If it takes 15 minutes it should be 6$. What you may not know many immigrants are greeted like royalty, the government gives them money on a monthly basis when they come in, free dental work, free medicine, free hospital, free food and almost free apartments etc... Maybe that's where the mentality comes in? That's what I have to deal with with the majority of phone calls are accents because this city is where they land from overseas.


Keep this in mind I have very few local accent calls right now. I'm working SEO so they can find me on the first page of google. A guesstimate 6 calls a week (3 price shoppers) (1 wanting a free estimate or picture quote) (1-2 saying ok for my hourly rate or phone pic quote)

I had 2 jobs this week, 2 jobs last week and only 1 job a week for 4 weeks before that. Most are 1 hour each. 
Before Christmas I landed 4-5 small (1 hour job) a week.

Now moving on I have a question my local customers ask how much will it be on the phone 95% of the time do you still say 89$ for the dispatch and I'll look at it tell you an exact number or they don't want to pay that, next. I feel I will lose my chance if I don't tell them a price range but then they may think its way too high.:vs_worry:

When you get there the job will be 600$ and they think it's too much do they pay the 89$ or they refuse thinking you were coning them?


----------



## jnohs

Tango said:


> It was meant to laugh at. What I didn't mention the majority of these were from accented people. Like I mentioned a couple of times for them their only toilet that has clogged overflowing for 4 days and they've been trying the 2$ plunger for that amount of time that they think it should be 12$ for a plumber. If it takes 15 minutes it should be 6$. What you may not know many immigrants are greeted like royalty, the government gives them money on a monthly basis when they come in, free dental work, free medicine, free hospital, free food and almost free apartments etc... Maybe that's where the mentality comes in? That's what I have to deal with with the majority of phone calls are accents because this city is where they land from overseas.
> 
> 
> Keep this in mind I have very few local accent calls right now. I'm working SEO so they can find me on the first page of google. A guesstimate 6 calls a week (3 price shoppers) (1 wanting a free estimate or picture quote) (1-2 saying ok for my hourly rate or phone pic quote)
> 
> I had 2 jobs this week, 2 jobs last week and only 1 job a week for 4 weeks before that. Most are 1 hour each.
> Before Christmas I landed 4-5 small (1 hour job) a week.
> 
> Now moving on I have a question my local customers ask how much will it be on the phone 95% of the time do you still say 89$ for the dispatch and I'll look at it tell you an exact number or they don't want to pay that, next. I feel I will lose my chance if I don't tell them a price range but then they may think its way too high.:vs_worry:
> 
> When you get there the job will be 600$ and they think it's too much do they pay the 89$ or they refuse thinking you were coning them?


 When they ask how much it will be you explain that if I was to give them a number on the phone right now it will be complete speculation pretty much a lie every job has its own set of circumstances that are different from The next if you would like we can get somebody over there between business hours eight to 4 o’clock and tell you the actual price of what it will take to get your job done correctly if they are adamant about price then you go a different route flood them with information example and water heater sale I did the other day the gentleman called and at first he thought he was crack shack and yens are you into the phone He first thing said yeah how much is a 40 gallon water heater I could tell he thought he was price shopping so I said OK let’s do this I’m gonna just give you my prices you can write them down you’ll know what it takes to get it done properly and if you want to come by and take a look at it and give me the breakdown for my water heater install install new 40 gallon water heater 13 and install upgrade to 50 gallon water heater to 89 install thermostatic mixing valveAnd expansion tank 589 cart away old unit 100 total 2367 then I explained a couple more things variables that will depend on the total outcome of your particular John explained that the new water heaters have a positive gas pressure valve and that if you do not have three-quarter going to the unit from the ceiling you may not have sufficient enough gas pressure to run this unit at in the middle of theWinter during peak demand the old units if we didn’t have enough gas pressure just produced a small flame the new units if you don’t have enough gas pressure because of the DOD department of defense efficiency regulations the new units are not allowed to just make a smaller flame because the efficiency drops so you’re just shuts off on your water heater in the middle of the night on the coldest night in the winter and you’re calling me trying to find out why your water heater second you have to see if you have a 4 inch flue for a long time people were typing them in with 3 inch gaskets get the new units even though they look the sameThe new units have a rollout sense of what this does it’s a little sensor that detects he on the outside of the chamber and wish if you have a 3 inch flue it doesn’t vent properly and again in the middle of the winter during peak demand and the coldest night of the ball this year your role adventure trips and you have to call me and find out why the water heater not working and I got to come there and explain well whoever put this in didn’t give you the right size gas pipe or didn’t give you the right size for the pipe they didn’t know what they were doing and now you have to do it now anyway so I have to talk about this in explaining all the ins and outs of the simpleWhat are heater installation what the thermostatic mixing valve does and expansion tank he says to me wow there’s a lot to this that I didn’t know you really sound like you know what you’re talking about maybe you should come by and give me the “bingo winner winner winner I said OK I’m actually around the block right now would you like me to stop by said sure I want to give me a quote and yeah we need a new gas pipe it’s all about at $2756. He wanted to do it it was Saturday at 2 o’clock I said we couldn’t do it till Monday at 9 o’clock I said I can install two valves and now on top of the water heater this way you can have old “cold water throughout your entire house explain that I will not be charging him for that right now I wrote on the quote that if the customer decides not to use us the price for installing the two three-quarter ball valve’s will be 389 that was just a little just in case he changes his mind of course though he didn’t I went there I did the job then he asked me yet can you take a look at my water mainBank another 289 then he says can you look at my toilet fluid master and flapper additional 349 by the end of the day I walked out of there with like $3100 and this all came from a customer who thought he was probably shopping but in the end I sold him value and he forgot about the price


----------



## jnohs

Sometimes with the dispatch fee I’ll go to a customers house and if they genuinely want to do the job but they just don’t know the right decision to make I’ll tell them when they give me the dispatch for say look you got a month to call me to do this job I’ll apply the money you gave me right now to the job they really appreciate that sometimes they call back and I will do the job sometimes that’s what it all it takes is just for them to say you know what you’re right just do it sometimes I will talk to customer again who is has been nice and seems reasonable but they just don’t know the right decision I make I specifically tell them don’t worry about the dispatch fee when you can come here for that we’re actually came here to make a customer and do some plumbing for you if you catch more flies with honey and sometimes that’s the angle I work and that gets me the job sometimes I’ll explain to customer OK I’m 389 you got to give me $89 right now that means the next guy has to come in and tell you $300 when are you paying the exact same price that I’m paying you and I’m the guy you want to do the job because I’m going to do it correctly look at my reviews you except no money till I’m done and you’re happy this is an easy decision


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## Tango

LET THE PHONE RING!

More SEO (search engine optimization) on the computer tomorrow. I will get on the front page of google one day. I will work hard to get there. I'm learning all this stuff as I go, no one to teach me other than the basic book I bought. I do a lot of research to implement strategies.

I just learned about sitemaps so that's what I did this morning. I submitted them to Bing and Google. Now they will recognize more of my pages. If I'm not mistaking my number on the organic list is #15. Pretty good for a first timer who didn't know how to build a website and who didn't do any seo yet.

Now I have to learn about the search console, impressions, position, and clicks and a bunch of other stuff.


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## fixitright

Did I mention,

Realtors suck!


----------



## Tango

fixitright said:


> Did I mention,
> 
> Realtors suck!


Looks like the guy has left the building... "buy a moentrol and be a hero"? 

Are you the new slogan guy with "Realtors suck!"?

:biggrin:


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## Tango

My first attempt at the 90$ consultation and flat rate price was a bust. This accented woman said she had a kitchen leak in a condo she rents to another person.

90$ to find the cause, find a solution and give a price for the repairs. If I do the repair I waive that fee. Now she thinks it's 90$ for the whole job. I explain in different words. Now she asks if I can do better than 90$ for the job. I give an example that the job may be 200$ but I have to check to give an accurate number. She asks again for a lower price than 90$ and to show up saturday morning. I say it more expensive on weekends so she asks for this evening because she's at work. After like 10 minutes of explanation she ask how much does it cost to fix the leak?

I told her to send me some pictures and I'll give you a price.. 

grrrr


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## jnohs

Logic web media long island ny +1 631-824-3390


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## jnohs

The only Google ads guys that has definitely kept cost down while performing everything as expected.


----------



## M&S

One of the beauties of being self employed is the ability to choose your customers when things are going well. You get better and better at weeding out the bad ones, but it takes time.


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## Tango

Tango said:


> My first attempt at the 90$ consultation and flat rate price was a bust. This accented woman said she had a kitchen leak in a condo she rents to another person.
> 
> 90$ to find the cause, find a solution and give a price for the repairs. If I do the repair I waive that fee. Now she thinks it's 90$ for the whole job. I explain in different words. Now she asks if I can do better than 90$ for the job. I give an example that the job may be 200$ but I have to check to give an accurate number. She asks again for a lower price than 90$ and to show up saturday morning. I say it more expensive on weekends so she asks for this evening because she's at work. After like 10 minutes of explanation she ask how much does it cost to fix the leak?
> 
> I told her to send me some pictures and I'll give you a price..
> 
> grrrr



She called back this morning with a picture. The apartment is on the 14th floor. The sink drain was redone with abs instead of copper. I told her it had to be copper for fire safety and code and the one who did was a hack. She told me it wasn't too long ago and it was leaking.

I said around 220$ to temporarily fix it or wait until I can get prices for copper fittings on monday and redo it properly. Now she's says that the job was 90$ but now it's more and she doesn't understand why I'm charging more. More explanation and then she says It should be free because I'd waive the consultation fee to do the repair. At that point I had no clue what she was talking about. No use trying to explain and at the end it was free in her mind.

Do you see what I have to deal with on a daily basis with accents! I've been pissed off all day and my mood is rubbing off on my girlfriend. I think it's the last time I try to deal with them seriously.


----------



## Master Mark

M&S said:


> One of the beauties of being self employed is the ability to choose your customers when things are going well. You get better and better at weeding out the bad ones, but it takes time.




Being self employed...That is the beautiful part... you are not obligated to work for anyone like if you were an employee...... 

We are busy , or busy enough , and I weed them out every day,, when I talk to them about their problems and I start to hear the argumentative, combative attitude in their voices, I usually just tell them I am too busy to get to them for at least a week or more....

The problem is if you are starving or really slow you overlook the warning signs and get yourself sunk into a mess ....

passed on an estimate today because the needed 3 estimates to turn in to the insurance company..... of course they expected it to be free too....

but installed a 40 gallon gas in a flooded basement at 2.45 today cause I could:biggrin:


.


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## jnohs

Yah mon. I am here in Long Island and we have a very annoying derka derka population. They are the worst and have faith in the trust that is supposed to exist between 2 people. I could go on and on and on and on... about how they suck... but it is just easier to tell them 90 plus waive the fee. But when they act stupid like the one u are describing. There is abasloutly no hope. Better if 400 to come over. All of a sudden she will hear u perfectly and say no thank you. **** them and and hope they get uncomfortable enough in life to either leave or open there mind. Believe it thought Indians from India are a great people to work for. They are actually mostly christen and the Indian religion is very peaceful calm and spiritual. And if you are calm and use the Magic phrase “ I am here to help” it goes a long way. It just sucks because it is difficult to figure out which one u are on the phone with. As for the lady in your post. You dodged a bullet.unwill get better at figuring oht and weeding out the shoit.


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## Tango

jnohs said:


> Yah mon. I am here in Long Island and we have a very annoying derka derka population. They are the worst and have faith in the trust that is supposed to exist between 2 people. I could go on and on and on and on... about how they suck... but it is just easier to tell them 90 plus waive the fee. But when they act stupid like the one u are describing. There is abasloutly no hope. Better if 400 to come over. All of a sudden she will hear u perfectly and say no thank you. **** them and and hope they get uncomfortable enough in life to either leave or open there mind. Believe it thought Indians from India are a great people to work for. They are actually mostly christen and the Indian religion is very peaceful calm and spiritual. And if you are calm and use the Magic phrase “ I am here to help” it goes a long way. It just sucks because it is difficult to figure out which one u are on the phone with. As for the lady in your post. You dodged a bullet.unwill get better at figuring oht and weeding out the shoit.



derka derka, now that's funny! Had to check it out and saw that movie clip. Awesome.

Oh yes they understand the high price! That's what I wanted to post earlier the next one who calls will have a 400$ call fee or something like that. It will turn them away pretty quick. Even 90$ to do a complete job turns them away when I hear they have (a handy hack) do a job for 60$ material included.


I did only one job for an indian they were dressed like their home country seen in the movies and my mistake in the beginning of my business, I didn't have him sign the invoice with the price on it when I got in the house. At the end he wasn't going to pay what I had told him on the phone because he had a quote from a hack that was lower. I was polite and he just got angrier and raised his voice. I was able to get most of the money but not quite.

Do I ever have a lot of lessons!


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## Master Mark

Tango said:


> derka derka, now that's funny! Had to check it out and saw that movie clip. Awesome.
> 
> Oh yes they understand the high price! That's what I wanted to post earlier the next one who calls will have a 400$ call fee or something like that. It will turn them away pretty quick. Even 90$ to do a complete job turns them away when I hear they have (a handy hack) do a job for 60$ material included.
> 
> 
> I did only one job for an indian they were dressed like their home country seen in the movies and my mistake in the beginning of my business, I didn't have him sign the invoice with the price on it when I got in the house. At the end he wasn't going to pay what I had told him on the phone because he had a quote from a hack that was lower. I was polite and he just got angrier and raised his voice. I was able to get most of the money but not quite.
> 
> Do I ever have a lot of lessons!





I must be lucky, or live in a decent area because I rarely if ever have to get the customer to sign an agreement for the work we have done... 

I tell someone on the phone 1400 for a gas water heater installed and that is all I need to do... its all a verbal quote and I have only been screwed once in 30 years an that was from a jewish builder...for 300 bucks.... I got it out of him eventually but learned my lesson about them.....

I presently have 2 water conditioners I installed in the last week that I am still waiting to see the checks sent to me...totaling about 3k .. it is in the back of my mind but not something I am very worried about..... 

If it goes past 2 weeks then the war drums begin to beat...and I call them directly and ask if the check has been mailed,,,, the people I am talking about are just your Caucasian types.... most dont have it in them to mud wrestle with me ... but some do......:biggrin::vs_laugh:


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## Tango

It can't go wrong all the time for me anyways... Not so much for the customer...

Got a call this morning from a guy saying his 1st floor ceiling was dripping badly. He said his shower backed up. He didn't want to wait for monday's rate and had also called his insurance.

He had tried 3 bottles of draino and a 15$ snake and it was backing up for the last 2-3 days. He said it was only the shower. I opened the ceiling drywall and the water was dripping into my bucket With a mirror I saw where the water was presumably coming from but the joists were blocking my view.

I had to cross examine the guy like a detective only to find out everything on the 2nd floor bathroom was backing up. Then he told me he tried plunging for hours.:biggrin: I kept from grinning as I realized he had himself done some poor handy man work throughout the house and by the looks of it he didn't want to hire a plumber to save money. It backfired, not only he had me there but the disaster crew, then he'll need a drywaller and a painter.

Anyway I drained the line a little bit, saw the water had passed above the wax seal and make a mess from there. He was surprised to see the drum machine compared to his puny 1/4 inch 10' snake. You know the ones in a bottle!

Two and a half hours later after clearing the line, replacing a shut off solidifying the toilet I got myself a nice paycheck. :smile:

You see I'm not complaining this time!:wink:


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## Tango

Master Mark said:


> I must be lucky, or live in a decent area because I rarely if ever have to get the customer to sign an agreement for the work we have done...


Mark I think you have it real good. The grass seems greener on your side for that but not for the ones who says the cheque in the mail. For me everyone pays at the end of the job. No one ever asked if they could pay later except one who tried to con me. People seem to know the job is done and pay.

I learned the hard way, not Caucasians but with the accents at least 3-4 times that I can remember. You say 160$ on the phone they make on purpose to hear 60$ because it rhymes. I remember that one quite clearly. What I've started doing is put in clear wrinting on my work order MINIMUN 1 HOUR the next column says HOURLY RATE.

I go in the house I say the number again and I write down the number I said on the phone so they can't play stupid after. I show the accents the work order then I say the hourly rate rate is ___. Then I say if it takes 2 hours it is this much, 3 hours this much.

I have to explain every single detail that can happen to the price to change I go slowly like I'm talking to a little school kid. If I don't do that they'll make sure to say in the end you didn't tell me so I'm not paying for that.


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## goeswiththeflow

I am lucky too, because in my area we don't get a lot of people who try to back track after the work is done. I have been known to require payment in advance on a few occasions if I had any suspicion. It isn't that common, but it is usually with accents, although not always. I like to think that some of it is in my approach, but maybe it is just pure luck.

I often wonder what those whiney liberal types with the coexist bumper stickers do for a living and how they have never run into an accent that tries to screw them, because so many do. They want us to believe that stereotypes are wrong, but there is reason why they exist in the first place. "Why can't we all just get along?", because accents today are not like they were in my greatgrandparents' day. Back then they did try to get along, and so normal Americans reciprocated. Today they don't, so they get what they give.


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## jnohs

Something just came to mind. Tango u may be doing everything perfect. Except it is that you are new to it. And people/customers. Can pick up on this superliminial stuff. They may sense that you are new or unsure or slow to react or to fast to react and as a result subconsciously creating conflict with you. 

I can say that. I have noticed a round about on the way I run sales. I use the same words and I say a lot of the same things over and over to customers and if it was recorded it would sound scripted. But the truth is that I have developed a great rebuttal or response to almost any question a customer may ask. Or if I sense a conflict in the customers dialogue. I can respond with clarity a question to understand and releive any fear the customer may have before they even bring them up to me. 

The other day I was at a customers house and sold them a water heater. And the lady said joe I think we want you to do it. She looked at her husband and said. What do u think Evan. I interrupted and said “Well this is NY. Ans I think on your wedding day you were asked Evan, do you promise to have hold cherish and to provide hot water till death do you part.” 
We all broke out in laughter and he said abasloutly joe we will see u Saturday. 

The point is, after I was done I was in my truck thinking about how that went down. It sounded cheesy and like a sales gig. But really it comes so naturally now that it is genuine and funny and I know it isn’t the end of the world if I don’t get the sale. Subconciouncesly people can see that I am not nervous I am not a prick. My reviews help them know I am good. No money down helps them realize what I want to do for them. 2year warranty says there money invested is insured for 2years. They can feel that I want the job but it’s ok if it doesn’t happen.....All comfortable feelsings.

Now sometimes I have another problem. Sometimes once I am so sure of my self it is easy to get cocky.


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## Tango

Great tips! I'm not a fast thinker for witty comments. 

1) I figured the people who have money and want a good service do not waste time. They say their issue, I say my hourly rate or a ballpark to some tasks and they give me their address. In these situations its smooth till the end.


2) The next set is when they immediately ask how much it costs, usually they found me on kijiji. A black market haven its like craigslist I guess. They don't care if its done to code or you give them a great service. They want cheap. so cheap a bicycle tube for pipe is perfectly fine with them as long its 20$ or less or something like that. I should start asking them what they expect.


I still give my rate and sometimes like this winter I got a lawyer who tried to clear his clog but failed. (I posted his story about the wall jewelry)


3) Then there are who look for real companies but shop around not caring who does the job. These people will tell you their issue but quickly want to know the price, the cheapest phone price wins and it better be the same amount on the bill and they are offended with taxes on it. They know everything is taxed except some foods. They are oblivious to the quality and they want the leak fixed and think all plumbers are the same... This is in the same category those who demand free estimates because who cares. The plumber can waste his time for all they care. After shopping around and the price is not to their taste they call the hack.


----------



## goeswiththeflow

jnohs said:


> Something just came to mind. Tango u may be doing everything perfect. Except it is that you are new to it. And people/customers. Can pick up on this superliminial stuff. They may sense that you are new or unsure or slow to react or to fast to react and as a result subconsciously creating conflict with you. *No insult or offense meant to Tango, but that same thought occurred to me too. You seem to have a good grasp on how to handle them, but your results aren't matching up. Customers are like most other animals, unpredictable, and they can sense the slightest bit of apprehension, even if you think that you aren't showing it.
> *
> I can say that. I have noticed a round about on the way I run sales. I use the same words and I say a lot of the same things over and over to customers and if it was recorded it would sound scripted. But the truth is that I have developed a great rebuttal or response to almost any question a customer may ask. Or if I sense a conflict in the customers dialogue. I can respond with clarity a question to understand and releive any fear the customer may have before they even bring them up to me. *Done that script thing too. It is very helpful, but like they say, just when you think you've made something idiot proof, they just go ahead and develop a better idiot, so you're still going to get the occasional one which doesn't respond like they should when you apply the correct response to them. Dealing with customers is a lot like training dogs.
> *
> The other day I was at a customers house and sold them a water heater. And the lady said joe I think we want you to do it. She looked at her husband and said. What do u think Evan. I interrupted and said “Well this is NY. Ans I think on your wedding day you were asked Evan, do you promise to have hold cherish and to provide hot water till death do you part.”
> We all broke out in laughter and he said abasloutly joe we will see u Saturday.
> 
> The point is, after I was done I was in my truck thinking about how that went down. It sounded cheesy and like a sales gig. But really it comes so naturally now that it is genuine and funny and I know it isn’t the end of the world if I don’t get the sale. Subconciouncesly people can see that I am not nervous I am not a prick. My reviews help them know I am good. No money down helps them realize what I want to do for them. 2year warranty says there money invested is insured for 2years. They can feel that I want the job but it’s ok if it doesn’t happen.....All comfortable feelsings.
> 
> Now sometimes I have another problem. Sometimes once I am so sure of my self it is easy to get cocky.


 Been there done that too.


----------



## Tango

I dodged a bullet. A guy calls saying his son bought a cottage (probably a shack) the plumbing is all hacked up with short turn 90s and everything is clogged. He didn't want it snaked as he rented one and couldn't do it from the septic tank or the sink. I bet he rented a super vee at HD to save money thinking it will do for the 4" line!

He wanted me to cut a bunch of drain lines full of water and crap and redo them. I told him it wasn't a good idea to remove them full. He sends me pics. I see the house needs a full re-pipe because I see polyethylene pipes used for drains, melted ends to fit with hose clamps.

He says wow I didn't know plumbers charged that much but I need someone tomorrow morning asap as he's not working that day. He says ok come over. I look on the map and it a dotted line, probably a cow trail to the shack.

He texts me back 3 hours later to cancel saying his son will try with a friend. Yeah right, he hired a hack. ANY AWAY THANK YOU for the cancellation!!

Damn I deleted the text and the pictures with it. No more show to the tell.


----------



## MACPLUMB777

Tango said:


> I dodged a bullet. A guy calls saying his son bought a cottage (probably a shack) the plumbing is all hacked up with short turn 90s and everything is clogged. He didn't want it snaked as he rented one and couldn't do it from the septic tank or the sink. I bet he rented a super vee at HD to save money thinking it will do for the 4" line!
> 
> He wanted me to cut a bunch of drain lines full of water and crap and redo them. I told him it wasn't a good idea to remove them full. He sends me pics. I see the house needs a full re-pipe because I see polyethylene pipes used for drains, melted ends to fit with hose clamps.
> 
> He says wow I didn't know plumbers charged that much but I need someone tomorrow morning asap as he's not working that day. He says ok come over. I look on the map and it a dotted line, probably a cow trail to the shack.
> 
> He texts me back 3 hours later to cancel saying his son will try with a friend. Yeah right, he hired a hack. ANY AWAY THANK YOU for the cancellation!!
> 
> Damn I deleted the text and the pictures with it. No more show to the tell.


Sometimes it is good to cancel a job,
once my partner and I were looking at a job just down the street from his
house and while we were discussing with the home owner he turned and walked out and told me that he knew from experience that we did not want this job,


----------



## goeswiththeflow

MACPLUMB777 said:


> Sometimes it is good to cancel a job,
> once my partner and I were looking at a job just down the street from his
> house and while we were discussing with the home owner he turned and walked out and told me that he knew from experience that we did not want this job,


Right on! One of the things that gets me about those managers and business owners who spout that "the customer is always right" mantra, is how quickly and easily they literally sell their self respect, and that of their employees.

My first job while in high school I learned a lot about how to behave in the workplace (although my parents instilled quite a bit of that before I even walked in the door), but I will never forget how it felt to have to stand there and be belittled by some beatch customer because that is how the boss wanted it. It's one thing for him to choose it for himself if that's the way he wants to run his business, but it said a lot about how little he cared for me and the rest of his employees to require us to go through that. I still see the guy occasionally, and although I'm on speaking terms with him I have very little respect for him to this day.


----------



## JohnnieSqueeze

fixitright said:


> I had no idea the US Postal service takes four weeks to get a letter with a check for me to get here.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, in all honesty it's still not here.
> 
> 
> 
> Is the pony express still going?
> 
> 
> 
> The realtor said it's in the mail.




keyword REALTOR


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tango

*1st Year Anniversary!*

Today is is my first year in business!:vs_balloons::vs_cake::vs_balloons:​

April 18 2017 is when I got my master plumber diploma and contractor licence in the mail. Let me tell you it was a ride to get it. Running around for many applications, going to classes to prepare for the exams and handing out thousands of dollars to various organisations.


Since then I have been riding a bigger wave. Learning on my own to build a website, putting text and pictures to it, making it nice so people want to go through it. Designing my own business cards, door hangers, creating work orders from scratch and now stickers. 


Putting my info on Google, updating it every week with posts and pictures. Trying various tactics for SEO and starting to put links with social media, obtaining reviews etc.


I'm not finished yet! Trying to deal with customers! Ha you read the first page! Learning how to talk to them, giving useful advice. Calling faucet manufacturers to obtains parts, meeting representatives to discuss our mutual benefits. Outfitting the van. The list goes on.....


I want to thank everyone on the forum for being nice to me giving pointers, tips and valuable advice on owning my one man shop. I appreciate it very much!:vs_rocking_banana:



.


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## Master Mark

I posted this comic satire from South park on my Yelp site in hopes that all the little sissy whiners that have given me a one star review just for free advice on the phone see it.......

Do you Think they will get the message, ??? 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/us35mcGJVq1fGz4E2


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## CaptainBob

Congratulations Tango on one year, good luck on many more. 

Master Mark - They are probably too dumb to get it.


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## Tango

Master Mark said:


> I posted this comic satire from South park on my Yelp site in hopes that all the little sissy whiners that have given me a one star review just for free advice on the phone see it.......
> 
> Do you Think they will get the message, ???
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/us35mcGJVq1fGz4E2


I can see it clearly in my mind. The grand MAster MaRk :sorcerer: having voodoo dolls all lined up ready with limbs torn apart waiting to be poked with long poisonous barbed prongs recanting curses and hexes for bad customers.:icon_evil::icon_evil:

One by one on his lap they feel the wrath and torment upon their lost soul forever howling. ahoOoooOo :icon_evil:


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## Master Mark

Tango said:


> I can see it clearly in my mind. The grand MAster MaRk :sorcerer: having voodoo dolls all lined up ready with limbs torn apart waiting to be poked with long poisonous barbed prongs recanting curses and hexes for bad customers.:icon_evil::icon_evil:
> 
> One by one on his lap they feel the wrath and torment upon their lost soul forever howling. ahoOoooOo :icon_evil:



Noooo... you got it all wrong....its not a voodo doll 

Thats a *therapy doll.*..... *its a feelings doll *... its one way that millennial's can express their feelings when they are all welled up inside and cannot find the right words to tell you how or where you hurt them.... 
Perhaps they cant even figure out why they feel hurt at all...just something about in the tone of your voice hurt and upset them....

you know they have safe rooms set up in some businesses now for young millennial's to go when they need to cry and feel safe?? They can go curl up and hug a pillow until they feel good again.... 

Its about the same concept with the therapy doll ..



also congrads on the first year..


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## Tango

Thanks Mark!

My doll story was an attempt for a spin off series. :devil3:

You should carry a batch of care bear dolls and give them them to whinners. hahaha That'll shut them up.


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## Tango

What the heck happened? The flood gates crashed open!

For the last 2 months it was so slow like many of you know, 1 or 2 jobs a week. Then this morning the sun was bright and getting warm. Its been the first clear day in weeks with cloudy and cold sky.

All of a sudden 7 calls this morning and I've booked 7 jobs this week.(actualy 6) someone called to cancel saying he did it himself as he though a plumber was 12$ or something.

Did people come out of hibernation or what!?? Or could it be my seo is starting to pay off with all the hours I put in and expanding the website?


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## Debo22

Tango said:


> What the heck happened? The flood gates crashed open!
> 
> For the last 2 months it was so slow like many of you know, 1 or 2 jobs a week. Then this morning the sun was bright and getting warm. Its been the first clear day in weeks with cloudy and cold sky.
> 
> All of a sudden 7 calls this morning and I've booked 7 jobs this week.(actualy 6) someone called to cancel saying he did it himself as he though a plumber was 12$ or something.
> 
> Did people come out of hibernation or what!?? Or could it be my seo is starting to pay off with all the hours I put in and expanding the website?


This business is feast or famine. You’ll have free time wondering if your phone is even working, then all of a sudden it rings off the hook, then dead again. Take advantage of the busy time and save for the slow time.


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## Tango

Yep I have been saving since day one and investing in better tools one at a time. 

I've noticed that some days the phone rings 10 times then a full week of nothing.

I've been working like mad to learn search engine optimization and all the side stuff you got to do. I realize that if I had given that task to a company they would of done a lousy job. Once again I got to learn it on my own and again the proverb is right "You are never better served than by yourself".


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## Master Mark

Tango said:


> Yep I have been saving since day one and investing in better tools one at a time.
> 
> I've noticed that some days the phone rings 10 times then a full week of nothing.
> 
> I've been working like mad to learn search engine optimization and all the side stuff you got to do. I realize that if I had given that task to a company they would of done a lousy job. Once again I got to learn it on my own and again the proverb is right "You are never better served than by yourself".




Congrads on the number of calls you got.....now you got to do some humping to keep up with them in a timely manner..... ...


you are about 50 % right about what you are saying with the seo stuff...... I had a crappy web site and a guy named Redwood on here told me about the issues with it.... got someone one to build a site that made google happy for about 2k .....a long while ago... 

I did not know enough about it to do it correctly and keep up with the changes..... He claimed the fellow made me a good site 



some other suggestion is if you have a land line
to have all your incoming calls call forwarded to your cell phone and not to an answering machine.... Most of my calls come directly to me on my cell and you done miss many of them


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## Tango

Master Mark said:


> Congrads on the number of calls you got.....now you got to do some humping to keep up with them in a timely manner..... ...
> 
> 
> you are about 50 % right about what you are saying with the seo stuff...... I had a crappy web site and a guy named Redwood on here told me about the issues with it.... got someone one to build a site that made google happy for about 2k .....a long while ago...
> 
> I did not know enough about it to do it correctly and keep up with the changes..... He claimed the fellow made me a good site
> 
> 
> 
> some other suggestion is if you have a land line
> to have all your incoming calls call forwarded to your cell phone and not to an answering machine.... Most of my calls come directly to me on my cell and you done miss many of them



I only have a cell phone now so all the calls come to me directly. I got rid of the landline home phone. I transferred that number to the cell.

I checked out your site last week, quickly though but it does look good. The title on google is different for you but it puts your location in it. I think it's better that way because most people type plumbing or plumber +city 

That's the format I chose too. I remember redwood giving advice on the subject. I bought a good book specifically for plumber. I've downloaded analytics and search console. It let's me know how many people visit the site, when they do it, the amount of time spent. From that I know which areas I can focus on. It also tells me the rank on google for each page of the site. There's a lot more to it though.

In my area the only thing that people use to find a plumber is google. If you don't show up there you are kaput. Last night my rank was 17.6 for my home page and 10 on drain cleaning.


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## Tango

Master Mark said:


> you are about 50 % right about what you are saying with the seo stuff......



Oh I forgot what's the other 50%? the blog, reviews?

I checked your site again. It is by far the best website and most complete. 5 stars!

To optimize your site further Your title tag(Title that shows up on Google) should match your headline title(H1) on that particular page.

for example your Google title tag : Water Leaks - Weilhammer Plumbing
On your website page(H1) : WATER LEAK REPAIR AND SERVICE
(They should be the same so google makes it easier to associate)



Another step would be to use all the space (around 62 characters) on Google for the title tag and to enhance it with more keyword like :
Water Leaks Service & Repair Weilhammer Plumbing Indianapolis (61 characters)

That way when someone makes a search you have more chance of showing up due to more keywords.


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## Master Mark

Tango said:


> Oh I forgot what's the other 50%? the blog, reviews?
> 
> I checked your site again. It is by far the best website and most complete. 5 stars!
> 
> To optimize your site further Your title tag(Title that shows up on Google) should match your headline title(H1) on that particular page.
> 
> for example your Google title tag : Water Leaks - Weilhammer Plumbing
> On your website page(H1) : WATER LEAK REPAIR AND SERVICE
> (They should be the same so google makes it easier to associate)
> 
> 
> 
> Another step would be to use all the space (around 62 characters) on Google for the title tag and to enhance it with more keyword like :
> Water Leaks Service & Repair Weilhammer Plumbing Indianapolis (61 characters)
> 
> That way when someone makes a search you have more chance of showing up due to more keywords.




that sounds about right but I dont care to focus all that much on water leaks.... we are doing more specific targeting of things like water heaters, water softeners, sump pumps..... The rest is not as important to me...


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## fixitright

Far out stuff, Master Mark






I need to have a few cocktails or/and get all smoked up and watch this.


----------



## chonkie

I licked a whole sheet of acid and watched the video ... not sure which dimension I'm in now, but his snake head is really tripping me out.


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## Alan

chonkie said:


> I licked a whole sheet of acid and watched the video ... not sure which dimension I'm in now, but his snake head is really tripping me out.


Another benefit of owning your own business. Doing all the drugs you want.

:vs_laugh:


----------



## goeswiththeflow

fixitright said:


> Far out stuff, Master Mark
> 
> We're Already Dead (But That's Okay) - YouTube
> 
> I need to have a few cocktails or/and get all smoked up and watch this.


Dude, I thought I was all smoked up when watching it.


----------



## Master Mark

fixitright said:


> Far out stuff, Master Mark
> 
> We're Already Dead (But That's Okay) - YouTube
> 
> I need to have a few cocktails or/and get all smoked up and watch this.




Glad you liked it... that Quantum professor is pretty far out there... if you can keep up with what he is talking about and not get all befuddled and lost somewhere along the way, and do this without the drugs then you are something like a jedi master....

I personally think he could have left out the singing at the end.......:vs_laugh:.


----------



## JohnnieSqueeze

Master Mark said:


> Glad you liked it... that Quantum professor is pretty far out there... if you can keep up with what he is talking about and not get all befuddled and lost somewhere along the way, and do this without the drugs then you are something like a jedi master....
> 
> I personally think he could have left out the singing at the end.......:vs_laugh:.




well. so is his song on repeat dimensions 7-10?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Master Mark

JohnnieSqueeze said:


> well. so is his song on repeat dimensions 7-10?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



he has been around for quite a while and I dont even know how many blogs he has done... .and has done a number of blogs with songs in them..... quite a number of them ...but I have not watched them all yet 
I know he has a couple of books out..


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## Tango

:smile:Busy week! I've never had this many jobs, 8 in total and I may still get some on Sat or Sun.

Monday : 
1)Replaced a water main valve and squeeze in floor drain
2) Toilet flange replacement and pipe, Installed boutique kohler toilet and new valve. Gave him a quote to replace defective shower faucet he uses to wash the dog.

Tuesday :
1) Unclog laundry tub line. Fixed the uncle plumbing under the guy's sink. Only fixed the leak, not the improper dishwasher straight to the sewer of it because he didn't want a big bill.

Wednesday :
1) Replaced water heater element. She wanted my 30$ receipt to claim it to the manufacturer!
2) Replaced sump pump early evening. Need to call back to give him a quote to add a battery back up pump.

Thursday :
1) Fix lead and toilet flange done wrong by a GC.

Friday :
1) Remove and caulk bottom of shower. I doubt she'll want to pay to replace the cracked drain(real tough spot in ceiling between wall.)
2) Locate roman bath tub drip. Need to give quote for almost impossible to replace spout and faucet.

I have only enough energy to get myself a bag of corn chips at the store and watch live PD at nine! :smile:


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## Alan

Nice schedule, Tango!

I got two calls today. One asking if I repaired dishwashers. I told her I can fix the supply line to them, the drain line from it, or install / replace if you have a new one. She said the dishwasher had an error code flashing, so she was going to call an appliance guy. I told her to give me a call if she needed it replaced and I would be happy to put it in.

Another guy called from out of town on a bank owned property. He wants a price to repipe this mobile home. The whole place is in shambles. The only decent part of it was the roof and the vinyl siding. Subfloor needs complete tear out. Bathrooms are in complete disrepair. The best I can do is supply a new water system for it, but i'm hesitant to even connect it to any of the crappy faucets and valves. I should have taken pictures of this dump.

It's going to be expensive and i'm going to have to get lots of pictures before I even begin to consider working on it.

I was supposed to go install 3 new angle stops under a kitchen sink for a guy who is having his vinyl fllor done and discovered that the stops do not work when he attempted to remove his dishwasher. Vinyl guys weren't done yet, so i'll be working Saturday.


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## Tango

Alan said:


> Another guy called from out of town on a bank owned property. He wants a price to repipe this mobile home. The whole place is in shambles. The only decent part of it was the roof and the vinyl siding. Subfloor needs complete tear out. Bathrooms are in complete disrepair. The best I can do is supply a new water system for it, but i'm hesitant to even connect it to any of the crappy faucets and valves. I should have taken pictures of this dump.



Thanks for the comment.

Red flags!!!! It's not his property? The place is a dump? What makes you think he's going to pay? What scam can he pull off? If it's bank owned is the bank going to authorize the work?

Did you advertise to get calls already?


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## Alan

Tango said:


> Thanks for the comment.
> 
> Red flags!!!! It's not his property? The place is a dump? What makes you think he's going to pay? What scam can he pull off? If it's bank owned is the bank going to authorize the work?
> 
> Did you advertise to get calls already?


I agree red flags. I'm definitely not going to do the work while it's owned by a bank. Obviously a contract would be in order before I started, but right now i think he's just looking for a price. I'll probably figure two full days into it plus whatever materials I think I'll need.

My mental block is this : How am I able make him prove that he owns the home? It currently has a lock box, so there are some sort of real estate shenanigans going on there.

I've been pushing the facebook thing pretty hard and also put a listing on yp.com (the real yellow pages). I also have a google place listing that shows up when you search for plumber either preceded by or followed by any one of the 5 towns in our area. I even have the big spot on the right hand side. Not sure how that happened, but it works.


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## Master Mark

Alan said:


> I agree red flags. I'm definitely not going to do the work while it's owned by a bank. Obviously a contract would be in order before I started, but right now i think he's just looking for a price. I'll probably figure two full days into it plus whatever materials I think I'll need.
> 
> My mental block is this : How am I able make him prove that he owns the home? It currently has a lock box, so there are some sort of real estate shenanigans going on there.
> 
> I've been pushing the facebook thing pretty hard and also put a listing on yp.com (the real yellow pages). I also have a google place listing that shows up when you search for plumber either preceded by or followed by any one of the 5 towns in our area. I even have the big spot on the right hand side. Not sure how that happened, but it works.




The best approach to people you are not sure about is to simply , bluntly--- ASK THEM... Why do you care if you piss them off or somehow offend them??? 

When you are setting up the call just ask them "how will you be paying the bill...check, cash or plastic???? 

You can also ask them is this rental property... and are you the owner of the property??? 

If they claim its rental property I always come back with "I will not step foot on the property without permission directly from the owner.... I dont care if they told you to call someone.. 

I MUST hear directly from them first.... You will need them to call me, I dont care if they are in Australia living in the outback.....


Payment is due on completion of the work, we are not going to send the bill to the landlord even if you claim it is ok.......

Most large companies always first ask the customers how they are planning on paying the bill
so what is wrong with you asking the same questions...????

.


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## Alan

Master Mark said:


> The best approach to people you are not sure about is to simply , bluntly--- ASK THEM... Why do you care if you piss them off or somehow offend them???
> 
> When you are setting up the call just ask them "how will you be paying the bill...check, cash or plastic????
> 
> You can also ask them is this rental property... and are you the owner of the property???
> 
> If they claim its rental property I always come back with "I will not step foot on the property without permission directly from the owner.... I dont care if they told you to call someone..
> 
> I MUST hear directly from them first.... You will need them to call me, I dont care if they are in Australia living in the outback.....
> 
> 
> Payment is due on completion of the work, we are not going to send the bill to the landlord even if you claim it is ok.......
> 
> Most large companies always first ask the customers how they are planning on paying the bill
> so what is wrong with you asking the same questions...????
> 
> .


The other weird vibe I get from the guy is him texting me less than 8 hours later wanting to know when I would have the quote ready and when can I start the job. Friday afternoon trying to get pricing from suppliers is a little difficult and I had a couple of other appointments already setup.

He told me he found me on google which is great but he decided on who to call based on a company without any reviews because he wants somebody who works for a living not out to make a killing.

The whole situation seems odd, but I could sure use the work.


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## Tango

Alan said:


> He told me he found me on google which is great but he decided on who to call based on a company without any reviews because he wants somebody who works for a living not out to make a killing.
> 
> The whole situation seems odd, but I could sure use the work.



When I first started I had a bunch of GCs calling me to give them quotes. I suggest you read old posts on this forum and you will notice a trend. Without going far into this I have the feeling they knew I has just started out and were looking to prey on me. However reading most of the older post thought me valuable lessons.


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## Master Mark

I went to a ladies house on thursday for an appointment to install 2 of her brushed nickle 1400 delta tub faucets she had bought on amazon... she made the appointment with me 2 weeks ago for this specific day,,, house is about a 750k home...

I mentioned to her that the faucets she bought were not of that good a quality but she wanted me to cut open the walls on both of her upstairs bathrooms and install them.... I gave her a price of 400 each....

I show up to find out she had good 1700 faucets already installed in the units and then I find out she also needed the tub drains changed out to brushed nickle She thought the drains came with the delta faucets.... so at that point I knew I was in trouble with her,,,...

She dont know what she is doing and is not gonna accept my advice so I get the feeling I am just spinning my wheels and should just get the hell out of there.....fast

I told her it would be foolish to tear open these walls and then pay someone literally re-do both bathrooms with panels just to install these faucets when you only needed to get the correct trim for these 1700 faucets and you would be all set.... It was like taking a motor out of a car to change the spark plugs.....

She finally agreed with me so I get together some prices for her and fire them off yesterday... I Send her some pictures of the really nice delta faucet trims ..... the trim kits and drains cost about 600... I gave her a price to do the change outs 275 each.... I dont think it was out of line... 

She was too tidy and you could just tell she
was a clean freak..with a whole lot of money... 

I have not heard back from her yet.... and I already know its not gonna go good whatever I do so I know I am better off just moving on..

you can just tell when you dont click with someone from the start.....



.


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## Tango

Oh I got a good one from a while back. I know what you are going through Mark. I put in 78$ lav faucet to replace what looked like real expensive solid brass in mint condition that was surely worth 1000$. Who am I to argue, the supplied it!


A while back a man hires me to change out a lav faucet a 78$ one to replace the 1000$ one. He had me open the tub wall from the front (no access behind) with a cheapest moen I've ever seen, just by holding it bent!!! I also fixed the wobbly toilet.

I get paid and leave. A week later he calls me to remove the tub faucet because he decided to remove the tub. He can't remove the tub because the faucet is in the way. He wants it free! Why the hell would I do that for free? You didn't want to replace the tub when I suggested it. After back and forth he agreed to pay for me to come back..... I get there the whole bathroom is gutted to the studs, no more floor tiles either! :vs_whistle::vs_whistle:

He had decided to have his hack friend redo the bathroom, what a story that was! I never heard from him again. Cuckoo


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## Master Mark

Tango said:


> Oh I got a good one from a while back. I know what you are going through Mark. I put in 78$ lav faucet to replace what looked like real expensive solid brass in mint condition that was surely worth 1000$. Who am I to argue, the supplied it!
> 
> 
> A while back a man hires me to change out a lav faucet a 78$ one to replace the 1000$ one. He had me open the tub wall from the front (no access behind) with a cheapest moen I've ever seen, just by holding it bent!!! I also fixed the wobbly toilet.
> 
> I get paid and leave. A week later he calls me to remove the tub faucet because he decided to remove the tub. He can't remove the tub because the faucet is in the way. He wants it free! Why the hell would I do that for free? You didn't want to replace the tub when I suggested it. After back and forth he agreed to pay for me to come back..... I get there the whole bathroom is gutted to the studs, no more floor tiles either! :vs_whistle::vs_whistle:
> 
> He had decided to have his hack friend redo the bathroom, what a story that was! I never heard from him again. Cuckoo




did you make him pay for the wasted trip out to his home??


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## Tango

Master Mark said:


> did you make him pay for the wasted trip out to his home??


Yes I got paid for the original work and I got paid to remove the faucet again. I told him it was not my problem he decided to gut the place afterwards. He was not happy but yeah whatever.


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## MACPLUMB777

Alan said:


> The other weird vibe I get from the guy is him texting me less than 8 hours later wanting to know when I would have the quote ready and when can I start the job. Friday afternoon trying to get pricing from suppliers is a little difficult and I had a couple of other appointments already setup.
> 
> He told me he found me on google which is great but he decided on who to call based on a company without any reviews because he wants somebody who works for a living not out to make a killing.
> 
> The whole situation seems odd, but I could sure use the work.


The other thing you have to watch for is you give him a bid for *** then he says he will send you a check for double plus, all you have to do is send M/O
or some other negotiable amount back to another address, which is just a trick 
to wash this though your bank account then you find that it is a bad check,
I am now setting on a check foe $3,935.00 that someone wanted me to deposit then pass on $3,500.00 to another Mystery Shopper at another bank
guess what I still have the check and reported to the Police Dept 

Had this happen a few years ago when I advertised something on Craigslist


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## Tango

Update on doing my own SEO. I've been working real hard expanding the website with pages, proper use of the space permitted for titles and description.

I'd say I'm 45% complete on what I want to accomplish. After 3 weeks of on and off work I've completed my reno page. It looks pretty good. 

I have 3 out of 14 pages that are translated in both languages so all the rest will need to be translated when I finish the French portion. I expect to rise higher in rankings when I translate it all into English.

I checked my ranking in French where most people are here, plumber+my city, I'm now on page 1 on Google and on the 9th (last spot). If you count only the companies and not the irrelevant links I'm 5th.

Overall average position for all pages is 14.3

I'm still real slow with very few calls but I'll get there. It leaves me time to work on it. I can't imagine how expensive it would be if I hired someone to do it not to mention they wouldn't know what to write.


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## Master Mark

*virtual estimates*

This might sound like a dumb idea but a real estate freind said this to me at lunch today and I might actually advertise this option to young snowflake kind of people.......

instead of going out and estimating a job for someone and charging a fee to look over their problems, why not charge them 50 bucks for a "virtual estimate" over their phone???? 

Just give me your master card number and I will charge you a fee to look over your problems without steppin g in your door.. All they got to do is facetime you and point their phone at their plumbing problems and you see it from your phone or computor.... Look it over, give them advice and a price to make the repairs ....with a disclaimer of course...

be the only virtual plumber in town...


what do you think??:laugh:


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## Tango

It's an interesting idea but there's few issues that would come up without thinking it too much. You can't always see the whole picture. That's the main thing and they don't always say the whole problem. 
Maybe there is a way to do it but there'd be several kinks to work out for it to work. 

From my experience in my area when people send me pictures of their issues they expect a free estimate. While talking about their problem they are listening to me I can sense they just gathered enough info to try the repair themselves and say I'll call you back next week for an appointment. They never do! Charging them would solve the freebies and tongue slips.

Here's a few problems

1) For example the guy with his kitchen this week probably thought all I had to do was make a hole in the bottom of the island cabinet and pass a drain from below. Well when I went in the basement the drain lines were hacked so I'd have to do it right while I'm there. If he'd sent me picture or video I wouldn't have seen the issues lying out of range.

They would be angry once you show up and tell them you got to fix this and that and it'll cost more.



2) Another problem is that since they are not professional it will take twice as much time trying to explain where and how you want that video and they'l lbe asking too many questions and now instead of planning 30 minutes for 50$ it'll take over one hour to explain stuff to them and now you've spent 30 minutes+ for free. Unless you tell them every 30 minutes is another 50$.


3) You don't get the feel without seeing them in person, they may be flakes or real cheap and after seeing their manners you may not want to work for them. It goes both ways for qualifying a contractor and qualifying a customer.


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## Tango

I don't know what going this week but I'm getting a lot of phone calls and many jobs. I got 4 jobs already in 2 days. Got a portion of a cold water re-pipe tomorrow. An estimate on friday for a new kitchenette and possibly a roman tub diverter issue on thursday.

And an estimate or install on a BWV next week if I get all my equipment and get to test it a little. The chinese cam arrived yesterday, now I'm waiting on the navitrack probably tomorrow.


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## ShtRnsdownhill

hey thats good, its better than no calls, its always better to try and figure out how to fit all the calls in than wonder if your gona get any calls......


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## Alan

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> hey thats good, its better than no calls, its always better to try and figure out how to fit all the calls in than wonder if your gona get any calls......


Agreed. Two different kinds of stress there. I'm sitting on the latter part this week even though I do have finish to set on a bathroom Friday. :biggrin:


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## Logtec

It took me about 10 years to “be busy” and start making good money. 
Now- I did that without any loans or any debt, all that time rasing my daughter on my own!
I’m about 18 years in not and I can’t complain, word or mouth/and online WOM(fb groups, or that other one...)provides me about 75% of my work, print ads 5% and the other 20% I Sub off of a guy who is pretty busy doing high end residential..
business is slow Snowball.. if you’re good it constantly gets bigger..


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## Tango

I had a good day yesterday with the cold repipe. It took 5.5 hours. I hadn't worked that long in a single day for a very long time. As I was removing the very nice type L copper I found hidden branches and the guy wanted to renew it behind some real heavy cabinets. It was a good payday.

I'm supposed to get the navitrack today so I got to test if all the equipment works and I want to build a bigger reel basket and stand for the camera.

This summer I got more calls for BWV installation than water heaters! Maybe more in the whole year too!

I'm okay too if I don't get a ton of work it gives me time to fix things and get things done or take time off.


----------



## Tango

Logtec said:


> It took me about 10 years to “be busy” and start making good money.
> Now- I did that without any loans or any debt, all that time rasing my daughter on my own!
> I’m about 18 years in not and I can’t complain, word or mouth/and online WOM(fb groups, or that other one...)provides me about 75% of my work, print ads 5% and the other 20% I Sub off of a guy who is pretty busy doing high end residential..
> business is slow Snowball.. if you’re good it constantly gets bigger..


We are alike in the sense that I started without any loans and debt. I reinvest when I can and have the funds.

It surprises me though there a guy who got his licence not too long after me and I saw he bought a new cube van. How the heck do you pay that off while starting up?


----------



## Tango

Tango said:


> I'm supposed to get the navitrack today so I got to test if all the equipment works and I want to build a bigger reel basket and stand for the camera.
> 
> .


Just got the navitrack II. It was sold as used but it is brand new! It doesn't have a scratch on the case or locator and it arrived in its original cardboard box. I just don't know why it was sold. It has everything in the box and I found a tag from April 2018. It's 4 months old and unused. Awesome! I tried it in the living room with the chinese cam/sonde and it works.


Anyway I saved 2000$. :biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill

Tango said:


> Just got the navitrack II. It was sold as used but it is brand new! It doesn't have a scratch on the case or locator and it arrived in its original cardboard box. I just don't know why it was sold. It has everything in the box and I found a tag from April 2018. It's 4 months old and unused. Awesome! I tried it in the living room with the chinese cam/sonde and it works.
> 
> 
> Anyway I saved 2000$. :biggrin::biggrin:


cool, you should call the company to se if it has a warranty, and then they can tell you its a stolen unit...:devil3:


----------



## Tango

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> cool, you should call the company to se if it has a warranty, and then they can tell you its a stolen unit...:devil3:


Ridgid has a warranty?? Since when?? All the the plumbers that I know of who tried to get stuff under warranty were captured, tortured and burned.

Seriously you buy it your'e $hit out of luck. Want it fixed buy another one and repair it yourself. 

I just don't understand the stolen unit part... On another note the law says I bought it in good faith. Case closed! All pawn shops here are protected by this.


----------



## Alan

Tango said:


> We are alike in the sense that I started without any loans and debt. I reinvest when I can and have the funds.
> 
> It surprises me though there a guy who got his licence not too long after me and I saw he bought a new cube van. How the heck do you pay that off while starting up?


Same here. 

The only thing I have loaned is my truck. It's pretty easy to make that payment even if it's slow, but I do have a significant other who brings home pretty good money as well. We do still need me to work, but it doesn't hurt too bad if i have a couple of dead weeks. No fun money, but the business still floats itself.

But of course i'm making insurance payments monthly and bond payments monthly as well.


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill

Tango said:


> Ridgid has a warranty?? Since when?? All the the plumbers that I know of who tried to get stuff under warranty were captured, tortured and burned.
> 
> Seriously you buy it your'e $hit out of luck. Want it fixed buy another one and repair it yourself.
> 
> I just don't understand the stolen unit part... On another note the law says I bought it in good faith. Case closed! All pawn shops here are protected by this.



I would think every company has some warranty, unknown how long for rigid, I thought you bought it from ebay? it could have been stolen and now resold, many time stolen equipment is reported to the manufacture so if it comes in for repair they know its stolen and can keep it and send to insurance company or original owner..


----------



## Tango

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I would think every company has some warranty, unknown how long for rigid, I thought you bought it from ebay? it could have been stolen and now resold, many time stolen equipment is reported to the manufacture so if it comes in for repair they know its stolen and can keep it and send to insurance company or original owner..


I bought the navitrack on ebay from the states, I rechecked the tag that was in the case and it says 5 units ordered. So yeah someone might of taken one or what I see in documentaries are crooks who steal complete trailer vans full of stuff.

It would be pretty stupid for ridgid to keep the equipment for insurance claim when its sent in for repairs because now by not returning it they've become thieves themselves. The cops once told me here if you see your bicycle or property at the pawn shop tough luck you want it back you'll have to buy it because the pawn shop bought it in good faith. There may be exceptions but that's what I've been told.

As for waranty it has always been a joke in my opinion. It says lifetime waranty but once you claim they make up all sorts of reasons why its not covered. Or you hear stories people get their claim denied because the waranty card was not filled to specs or some wait for months and get their stuff back not fixed or they get a bill for the repairs.

Waranty for me is 90 days if you bought it somewhere and they offer a refund or replacement. After that I won't waste my time I'll buy the part and fix it myself.


----------



## Logtec

Tango said:


> ShtRnsdownhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would think every company has some warranty, unknown how long for rigid, I thought you bought it from ebay? it could have been stolen and now resold, many time stolen equipment is reported to the manufacture so if it comes in for repair they know its stolen and can keep it and send to insurance company or original owner..
> 
> 
> 
> I bought the navitrack on ebay from the states, I rechecked the tag that was in the case and it says 5 units ordered. So yeah someone might of taken one or what I see in documentaries are crooks who steal complete trailer vans full of stuff.
> 
> It would be pretty stupid for ridgid to keep the equipment for insurance claim when its sent in for repairs because now by not returning it they've become thieves themselves. The cops once told me here if you see your bicycle or property at the pawn shop tough luck you want it back you'll have to buy it because the pawn shop bought it in good faith. There may be exceptions but that's what I've been told.
> 
> As for waranty it has always been a joke in my opinion. It says lifetime waranty but once you claim they make up all sorts of reasons why its not covered. Or you hear stories people get their claim denied because the waranty card was not filled to specs or some wait for months and get their stuff back not fixed or they get a bill for the repairs.
> 
> Waranty for me is 90 days if you bought it somewhere and they offer a refund or replacement. After that I won't waste my time I'll buy the part and fix it myself.
Click to expand...

Ridgid can suck it, there cordless and “now their corded” power tools are ****. Basically sold/and targeted to DIY’ers or ppl how watch too much HGTV!
Their 90day warranty is ****, you need to jump Thur too many hoops of **** to get nothing in return!

I have “ridgid Plumbing tools” K-50, KT-200, snap cutter, and piping tools, which are great and are 10+ years old, but other then that, their “power tools” are basically homeowner grade.


----------



## Tango

What I learned.... from calls I get to unclog a toilet. Even though I state the price on the phone plus taxes they always skip a cog on the wheel when I'm done. They are never happy I got it unclogged in 5-10 minutes for the price they signed.

This morning a woman called saying they had tried and tried AND TRIED to unclog the toilet with a plunger without success, she switched to a full gallon of vinegar and baking soda! It is unknown how much time they spent on it:vs_whistle:

She wasn't really thrilled I was done in less than 10 minutes....They all do that!


----------



## Master Mark

Tango said:


> What I learned.... from calls I get to unclog a toilet. Even though I state the price on the phone plus taxes they always skip a cog on the wheel when I'm done. They are never happy I got it unclogged in 5-10 minutes for the price they signed.
> 
> This morning a woman called saying they had tried and tried AND TRIED to unclog the toilet with a plunger without success, she switched to a full gallon of vinegar and baking soda! It is unknown how much time they spent on it:vs_whistle:
> 
> She wasn't really thrilled I was done in less than 10 minutes....They all do that!



you have to give them a show for the money you are charging... 
a dog and pony show.... 

If th;ey are not watching you, Just tap hard on the water pipes with your channel locks...just enough to make it sound serious... run your auger through the line and bang on it a few times with the channel locks for extra affect......pull it in and out once or twice..... then go out to the truck and get the plunger and plunge in a few times... wiat another few minutes , flush the toilet a few times and then hand her the bill :vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


----------



## Tango

Master Mark said:


> you have to give them a show for the money you are charging...
> a dog and pony show....
> 
> If th;ey are not watching you, Just tap hard on the water pipes with your channel locks...just enough to make it sound serious... run your auger through the line and bang on it a few times with the channel locks for extra affect......pull it in and out once or twice..... then go out to the truck and get the plunger and plunge in a few times... wiat another few minutes , flush the toilet a few times and then hand her the bill :vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


Did you read my mind? Oh they usually stand by to see how it's done! Oh I do the trick and pony show but I can only keep it going for so long! :vs_laugh:

This morning once I got it going within about 2 minutes I worked it 8 more times because she was in the doorway observing. I adjusted the water level in the tank, chatted in between and went to work on it some more. I didn't feel like bringing the frozen ropump and bucket this time... I should of brought it in anyway, it really impresses them, the special red tool directly ordered from Deutschland and all the story I usually give. They get a show for the amount they pay! Today my show was a little off.


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## The Dane

I don't waste time giving anyone a show. I get it done flush a few times with a bunch of toilet paper to make sure it's all good and then I'm out of there and on to the next job. If anyone would ever complain a minimum of an hour is too much for a 5 minute job I would simply tell them that they are paying for experience, the right tool, professional service and a quick pain free experience with no hassle.

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


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## ShtRnsdownhill

The Dane said:


> I don't waste time giving anyone a show. I get it done flush a few times with a bunch of toilet paper to make sure it's all good and then I'm out of there and on to the next job. If anyone would ever complain a minimum of an hour is too much for a 5 minute job I would simply tell them that they are paying for experience, the right tool, professional service and a quick pain free experience with no hassle.
> 
> Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


A giant ship engine failed. The ship's owners tried one expert after
another, but none of them could figure but how to fix the engine.

Then they brought in an old man who had been fixing ships since he was a
young. He carried a large bag of tools with him, and when he arrived, he
immediately went to work. He inspected the engine very carefully, top to
bottom.

Two of the ship's owners were there, watching this man, hoping he would know
what to do. After looking things over, the old man reached into his bag and
pulled out a small hammer. He gently tapped something. Instantly, the engine
lurched into life. He carefully put his hammer away. The engine was fixed!

A week later, the owners received a bill from the old man for ten thousand
dollars. 

"What?!" the owners exclaimed. "He hardly did anything!"
So they wrote the old man a note saying, "Please send us an itemized bill."

The man sent a bill that read:
Tapping with a hammer....................... $ 2.00
Knowing where to tap.......................... $ 9,998.00

*Effort is important, but knowing where to make an effort makes all the
difference!*


----------



## The Dane

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> A giant ship engine failed. The ship's owners tried one expert after
> another, but none of them could figure but how to fix the engine.
> 
> Then they brought in an old man who had been fixing ships since he was a
> young. He carried a large bag of tools with him, and when he arrived, he
> immediately went to work. He inspected the engine very carefully, top to
> bottom.
> 
> Two of the ship's owners were there, watching this man, hoping he would know
> what to do. After looking things over, the old man reached into his bag and
> pulled out a small hammer. He gently tapped something. Instantly, the engine
> lurched into life. He carefully put his hammer away. The engine was fixed!
> 
> A week later, the owners received a bill from the old man for ten thousand
> dollars.
> 
> "What?!" the owners exclaimed. "He hardly did anything!"
> So they wrote the old man a note saying, "Please send us an itemized bill."
> 
> The man sent a bill that read:
> Tapping with a hammer....................... $ 2.00
> Knowing where to tap.......................... $ 9,998.00
> 
> *Effort is important, but knowing where to make an effort makes all the
> difference!*


Funny how this classic gets around. I have not only heard it before but the first time I actually heard it was back in Denmark where I'm from. The funny thing to me is that it is so good that across the world it actually pretty much stays the same. I believe the amount billed has changed a bit and I remember it being a machine in a factory or power plant or something like that not a ship engine. Other than that it's the exact same story. Thanks for reminding me of that one.

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


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## Tango

I'll try to remember and say something like that next time I get an unhappy face.


----------



## Greg755

I use both "time and material" and "flat rate" with customers.. depends on the Job I am doing.. Most of the time simple repairs are time material. Larger jobs and drain cleaning are flat rate..
Same with price on the phone for a large job I want to be there in person, for small jobs and drain cleaning I quote over the phone
BEFORE i give a quote over the phone i ask a lot of questions AND I make sure I ask WHO is going to pay the bill. this does 2 things #1 it makes them invest their time to give me details about the job and #2 they know right off the bat that I get paid when i leave and that they have the authority to order the work (they pay me and they get reimbursed from their landlord)
I would rather spend 10 10 minute on the phone than 30 to 60 minutes driving...
Once I am at a service job I might notice some other things wrong like some pipes leaking or dripping faucets IN tha
Larger jobs such as re-piping or renovations need to be done in person and I will NOT talk rates over the phone, but I will ask a ton of questions before I even go out there to qualify them and the job to lessen the risk of wasted time.t case I will add it up in my head, then give the customer an "all in one discounted flat rate price" if they have it all done while i'm here to save them money... 
I have stopped doing most plumbing now and only do Drain Cleaning and Pressure Washing, (well except maybe replacing drain lines under a sink or replace a toilet or faucet) so when I run into bigger jobs like septic tank or pipe replacement etc', I refer it out for a bird dog fee...


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## ShtRnsdownhill

Tango said:


> What I learned.... from calls I get to unclog a toilet. Even though I state the price on the phone plus taxes they always skip a cog on the wheel when I'm done. They are never happy I got it unclogged in 5-10 minutes for the price they signed.
> 
> This morning a woman called saying they had tried and tried AND TRIED to unclog the toilet with a plunger without success, she switched to a full gallon of vinegar and baking soda! It is unknown how much time they spent on it:vs_whistle:
> 
> She wasn't really thrilled I was done in less than 10 minutes....They all do that!



but the real time wasnt just 10 minutes, it was the time it took to drive there, the wear and tear on your truck, fuel, insurance and everything else that cost you money the second you wake up in the morning, even if you dont wake up its costing you everyday even if you dont do anything, I explain that to customers and usually their eyes open wide and state they didnt think of all the hidden costs there are running a business, why because they go to work and someone else worries about it as they are only an employee..most business owners know the expenses, but even then some are a$$ holes and still try to nickle and dime you..


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## Tango

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> but the real time wasnt just 10 minutes, it was the time it took to drive there, the wear and tear on your truck, fuel, insurance and everything else that cost you money the second you wake up in the morning, even if you dont wake up its costing you everyday even if you dont do anything, I explain that to customers and usually their eyes open wide and state they didnt think of all the hidden costs there are running a business, why because they go to work and someone else worries about it as they are only an employee..most business owners know the expenses, but even then some are a$$ holes and still try to nickle and dime you..


I have to find an easy way to explain all the overhead in a single sentence without boring them or explaining in details.


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## skoronesa

I have decided that unless it is necessary or there is some risk in running the auger like a low ceiling or brand new 1000$ toilet I don't want to scratch, I don't use the plunger. Some people get real butt hurt when you show up and get it with a plunger right away when they tried for ever and made a mess. I get that, no reason I can't just use the auger instead, my weak arms could use the exercise. 



Most of the reason the plunger works for me and not them is that I have a good WB orange foam rubber plunger which conforms to the hole. I also know that you should hold for a moment after pushing or pulling. And a lot of times the blockage softens while they wait for me to show up making it easier to clear. I also check the tank and usually change the flapper or flush valve seal and if it's a FM fill valve I will pop a new one on quick. That usually makes them feel good. It also gives them an out for their shame. They feel embarrassed that they used the toilet wrong and had to call a plumber. I will look at their toilet paper and if it's tripleply advise against it and suggest my favorite brand. Also if they have hard stool I wait for them to ask if I get calls for clogged toilets alot and I say yes and that a lot of times a change in medication can cause things to get harder without directly telling them they need a stool softener.



In cases where I do use the plunger and it bothers them we usually have the conversation about their accordion/old hard/torn red plunger and how they all suck except the one I have. Then I usually end up selling them one. I also sell some augers. We all know what kind of arm strength it takes to run one so they end up learning the value of calling a plumber. I also give them a free noburst bucket in nice shape for storage.



Overall our customers are a pretty intelligent bunch and we usually don't have an issue where we need to argue about why we are worth it. I feel so bad with you guys for having the terrible customers you complain about.


For what we charge I don't mind giving them the full monte. It isn't a show, it is a select set of knowledge I have built up and learned to present in a structured easy to understand manner which allows them to feel confident with my service and to mitigate the problem in the future. I am not trying to make money off of peoples bad luck or ignorance, there is enough old plumbing out there we are never short on work.




.


----------



## Master Mark

skoronesa said:


> I have decided that unless it is necessary or there is some risk in running the auger like a low ceiling or brand new 1000$ toilet I don't want to scratch, I don't use the plunger. Some people get real butt hurt when you show up and get it with a plunger right away when they tried for ever and made a mess. I get that, no reason I can't just use the auger instead, my weak arms could use the exercise.
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the reason the plunger works for me and not them is that I have a good WB orange foam rubber plunger which conforms to the hole. I also know that you should hold for a moment after pushing or pulling. And a lot of times the blockage softens while they wait for me to show up making it easier to clear. I also check the tank and usually change the flapper or flush valve seal and if it's a FM fill valve I will pop a new one on quick. That usually makes them feel good. It also gives them an out for their shame. They feel embarrassed that they used the toilet wrong and had to call a plumber. I will look at their toilet paper and if it's tripleply advise against it and suggest my favorite brand. Also if they have hard stool I wait for them to ask if I get calls for clogged toilets alot and I say yes and that a lot of times a change in medication can cause things to get harder without directly telling them they need a stool softener.
> 
> 
> 
> In cases where I do use the plunger and it bothers them we usually have the conversation about their accordion/old hard/torn red plunger and how they all suck except the one I have. Then I usually end up selling them one. I also sell some augers. We all know what kind of arm strength it takes to run one so they end up learning the value of calling a plumber. I also give them a free noburst bucket in nice shape for storage.
> 
> 
> 
> Overall our customers are a pretty intelligent bunch and we usually don't have an issue where we need to argue about why we are worth it. I feel so bad with you guys for having the terrible customers you complain about.
> 
> 
> For what we charge I don't mind giving them the full monte. It isn't a show, it is a select set of knowledge I have built up and learned to present in a structured easy to understand manner which allows them to feel confident with my service and to mitigate the problem in the future. I am not trying to make money off of peoples bad luck or ignorance, there is enough old plumbing out there we are never short on work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .




I tend to disagree with you about the intelligence of customers,,,, as far as mechanical abilities go....

it amazes me sometimes when you ask a grown man who has lived in his home for the past 25 years what kind of water heater does he have?? Is it gas or electric.......there is silence on the phone for 30 seconds...:vs_whistle:. 

then I ask them if they pay a gas bill or are you total electric??
Then , can you get up off your fat ass and go look at the heater??

Then customer says how can I tell which type of heater I have? 
I normally say does it have a smoke stack on it something that looks like the tin man on wizard of ozzzz?:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:

I usually tell them to send me a picture of the heater to my phone when they are especially dense..... 

These are fully grown men I am talking about

these guys would probably poke one of their eyes out trying to plunge a toilet









I dont think many customers can


----------



## skoronesa

Master Mark said:


> I tend to disagree with you about the intelligence of customers,,,, as far as mechanical abilities go....
> 
> it amazes me sometimes when you ask a grown man who has lived in his home for the past 25 years what kind of water heater does he have?? Is it gas or electric.......there is silence on the phone for 30 seconds...:vs_whistle:.
> 
> then I ask them if they pay a gas bill or are you total electric??
> Then , can you get up off your fat ass and go look at the heater??
> 
> Then customer says how can I tell which type of heater I have?
> I normally say does it have a smoke stack on it something that looks like the tin man on wizard of ozzzz?:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:
> 
> I usually tell them to send me a picture of the heater to my phone when they are especially dense.....
> 
> These are fully grown men I am talking about
> 
> these guys would probably poke one of their eyes out trying to plunge a toilet
> 
> I dont think many customers can







skoronesa said:


> Overall our customers are a pretty intelligent bunch and we usually don't have an issue where we need to argue about why we are worth it. I feel so bad with you guys for having the terrible customers you complain about.





It has become apparent to me that our customers are, generally, more intelligent and wealthier than your customers. 



We too have extremely wealthy indian immigrants like tango, but ours aren't out to stick you to the lowest possible price. 



We have trailer parks, but they don't act like you should give them the full benefit of the doubt financially and almost always try to pay cash upfront.


We too have poor "accents" who try to do their own plumbing but when we show up they aren't just trying to get us to show them what to do and what parts to buy at HD. They understand that if we show up we are going to fix the problem and they will have to pay the rate. And that any garbage they just hacked in may get ripped out. Quite frankly most of the small number of terrible diy customers we have aren't "accents" but white husbands who have no mechanical ability but do have motivation. The wives usually do a great job at the diy.


The other tradesmen we work with also seem better than the ones you describe. I have heard of guys in the city or on "commercial" jobs screwing eachother but that doesn't happen around here. I think the main reason being that we have a very "small" community. It composes many towns but they are all linked very closely. There is only so much money to go around and if you aren't on the up and up word travels very quickly and you don't survive the winter.











.


----------



## Debo22

skoronesa said:


> It has become apparent to me that our customers are, generally, more intelligent and wealthier than your customers.
> 
> 
> 
> We too have extremely wealthy indian immigrants like tango, but ours aren't out to stick you to the lowest possible price.
> 
> 
> 
> We have trailer parks, but they don't act like you should give them the full benefit of the doubt financially and almost always try to pay cash upfront.
> 
> 
> We too have poor "accents" who try to do their own plumbing but when we show up they aren't just trying to get us to show them what to do and what parts to buy at HD. They understand that if we show up we are going to fix the problem and they will have to pay the rate. And that any garbage they just hacked in may get ripped out. Quite frankly most of the small number of terrible diy customers we have aren't "accents" but white husbands who have no mechanical ability but do have motivation. The wives usually do a great job at the diy.
> 
> 
> The other tradesmen we work with also seem better than the ones you describe. I have heard of guys in the city or on "commercial" jobs screwing eachother but that doesn't happen around here. I think the main reason being that we have a very "small" community. It composes many towns but they are all linked very closely. There is only so much money to go around and if you aren't on the up and up word travels very quickly and you don't survive the winter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Whereabouts do you live?


----------



## MirMahmutovic#

The shop I work for is fairly pricey. They do everything by flat rate based on time and material. For example its $550 per hour for main line rodding and camera, 250 every hour afterwards. Its pricey but people dont complain to much. We do great work & rarely, rarely have a call back. I've noticed the shop does a great job of explaining to people that we are a professional shop & not some rip off outfit I've had people tell me they were going to be charged crazy amounts for simple work that didn't need to be done. Guys work based on commission and look to squeeze people's pockets. We get paid per hour & just do the work the right way. If the work is done well, in timely & orderly fashion people will be happy. Of course you have the occasional odd ball but that's if it was smooth sailing all the time it wouldn't be fun.


----------



## Tango

MirMahmutovic# said:


> The shop I work for is fairly pricey. They do everything by flat rate based on time and material. For example its $550 per hour for main line rodding and camera, 250 every hour afterwards. Its pricey but people dont complain to much. We do great work & rarely, rarely have a call back. I've noticed the shop does a great job of explaining to people that we are a professional shop & not some rip off outfit I've had people tell me they were going to be charged crazy amounts for simple work that didn't need to be done. Guys work based on commission and look to squeeze people's pockets. We get paid per hour & just do the work the right way. If the work is done well, in timely & orderly fashion people will be happy. Of course you have the occasional odd ball but that's if it was smooth sailing all the time it wouldn't be fun.


What you say is not really flat rate, you just said 550$/hr plus all other hours are 250$.

Here flat rate is a contract, you can't change the amount period. Unless it's something major. You calculated wrong or have a bad time and taking way more time suck it up because you had him sign flat rate.

I'm not going flat rate anytime soon, too much hacking. Take it slow and no pressure on my part when I find out his pipes have disintegrated, the clock keeps on ticking and more parts get added on the bill. Otherwise I'd be constantly fixing hack stuff for free.


----------



## MirMahmutovic#

Your right, those are our rodding prices which is time based, but to rebuild a toilet tank is anywhere from $375 to $ 425 based on the toilet. The shop asked we finish it in a hour. Your right the shop sends a quote, which has a break down of the job cost. If they do not sign it we dont do the work. If it's something that requires a lot of work or is complicated the shop charges a $250 fee for a hour to investigate and diagnose. That gets paid on top of the work if the chose us.


----------



## Tango

MirMahmutovic# said:


> Your right, those are our rodding prices which is time based, but to rebuild a toilet tank is anywhere from $375 to $ 425 based on the toilet. The shop asked we finish it in a hour. Your right the shop sends a quote, which has a break down of the job cost. If they do not sign it we dont do the work. If it's something that requires a lot of work or is complicated the shop charges a $250 fee for a hour to investigate and diagnose. That gets paid on top of the work if the chose us.


Do you go to a customer's house and they have no idea what the costs are going to be? Or does the dispatch say between so and so. 

What about people who only says I have a leak and ask the price to the phone operator?


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## jeffreyplumber

MirMahmutovic# said:


> The shop I work for is fairly pricey. They do everything by flat rate based on time and material. For example its $550 per hour for main line rodding and camera, 250 every hour afterwards. Its pricey but people dont complain to much. We do great work & rarely, rarely have a call back. I've noticed the shop does a great job of explaining to people that we are a professional shop & not some rip off outfit I've had people tell me they were going to be charged crazy amounts for simple work that didn't need to be done. Guys work based on commission and look to squeeze people's pockets. We get paid per hour & just do the work the right way. If the work is done well, in timely & orderly fashion people will be happy. Of course you have the occasional odd ball but that's if it was smooth sailing all the time it wouldn't be fun.[/QUOTE
> 
> Sounds good How much do they pay a journeyman? If the customers aint complaining, you might be charging too cheap


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## HonestPlumb

Tango said:


> MirMahmutovic# said:
> 
> 
> 
> The shop I work for is fairly pricey. They do everything by flat rate based on time and material. For example its $550 per hour for main line rodding and camera, 250 every hour afterwards. Its pricey but people dont complain to much. We do great work & rarely, rarely have a call back. I've noticed the shop does a great job of explaining to people that we are a professional shop & not some rip off outfit I've had people tell me they were going to be charged crazy amounts for simple work that didn't need to be done. Guys work based on commission and look to squeeze people's pockets. We get paid per hour & just do the work the right way. If the work is done well, in timely & orderly fashion people will be happy. Of course you have the occasional odd ball but that's if it was smooth sailing all the time it wouldn't be fun.
> 
> 
> 
> What you say is not really flat rate, you just said 550$/hr plus all other hours are 250$.
> 
> Here flat rate is a contract, you can't change the amount period. Unless it's something major. You calculated wrong or have a bad time and taking way more time suck it up because you had him sign flat rate.
> 
> I'm not going flat rate anytime soon, too much hacking. Take it slow and no pressure on my part when I find out his pipes have disintegrated, the clock keeps on ticking and more parts get added on the bill. Otherwise I'd be constantly fixing hack stuff for free.
Click to expand...

I agree. In my area most went to flate rate pricing 10-15 years ago. My shop was started in 1933. I am the 4th owner, and have gone through many changes in the 35 years I have been a plumber. Went on my own about 10 years after working for the shop I currently own. I have never felt Flate Rate was fair to the customer more so, than the factor of the low percentage of jobs that turn into nightmares, and you take a beating. 
Of course we're all in business to make money, but justifying or rationalizing charging an 80 year old lady who lives alone on SS, $450 + to rebuild a two piece wc in 1/2 to 3/4 of an hour with $50 in materials, doesn't sit right with me. The younger guys who own shops in my area that are Flat Rate are for the most part, very successful and hire several employees fairly soon after going in business. I had 6 employees though 2010, when the crash hit. I live in a commuter town for NYC, the majority of which are all Wall Street. The epitome of "Money is no object" !
One of the reasons the shops that are Flat Rate are so successful in my area. My town is a town that has the stereotypical "other side of the tracks", in terms of financial class. Not even a 1/4 mile from my house is a $10 Million house. A customer of mine, that was in the right place at the right time in the 90's, on Wall Street. 
They built the house 15 years ago, and the cost of their roof is what I paid for my house ! Regardless of what they are worth, I charge them the same hourly rate as I do the working class people. Probably a good reason I'll be working the rest of my life !!


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## ShtRnsdownhill

HonestPlumb said:


> I agree. In my area most went to flate rate pricing 10-15 years ago. My shop was started in 1933. I am the 4th owner, and have gone through many changes in the 35 years I have been a plumber. Went on my own about 10 years after working for the shop I currently own. I have never felt Flate Rate was fair to the customer more so, than the factor of the low percentage of jobs that turn into nightmares, and you take a beating.
> Of course we're all in business to make money, but justifying or rationalizing charging an 80 year old lady who lives alone on SS, $450 + to rebuild a two piece wc in 1/2 to 3/4 of an hour with $50 in materials, doesn't sit right with me. The younger guys who own shops in my area that are Flat Rate are for the most part, very successful and hire several employees fairly soon after going in business. I had 6 employees though 2010, when the crash hit. I live in a commuter town for NYC, the majority of which are all Wall Street. The epitome of "Money is no object" !
> One of the reasons the shops that are Flat Rate are so successful in my area. My town is a town that has the stereotypical "other side of the tracks", in terms of financial class. Not even a 1/4 mile from my house is a $10 Million house. A customer of mine, that was in the right place at the right time in the 90's, on Wall Street.
> They built the house 15 years ago, and the cost of their roof is what I paid for my house ! Regardless of what they are worth, I charge them the same hourly rate as I do the working class people. Probably a good reason I'll be working the rest of my life !!



dont take this the wrong way, but your the prime example of someone that wants to stay poor and doesnt value themselves much above dirt on the floor..but if it makes you happy then continue on and die behind a wrench working because you HAVE to...
I enjoy working and will continue more to stay alive and chat with customers almost on a social level than need to work for a financial need...
you can give the old lady a discount if you want, but on " money is no issue" jobs you bet your a$$ im gona charge what I can get..how do you think the rich people got to make their money? grow it on trees? :vs_laugh:
you are correct we are in business to make money, but GOOD money not just scratch out an existence. and whatever the market will support for charging is what you should get..


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## Tango

HonestPlumb said:


> Of course we're all in business to make money, but justifying or rationalizing charging an 80 year old lady who lives alone on SS, $450 + to rebuild a two piece wc in 1/2 to 3/4 of an hour with $50 in materials, doesn't sit right with me.


Like the lawyer working at the association told me on the phone people can choose to hire who they want and shop prices all they want. The contradiction came from her next statement when she asked what my hourly rate was. She was flabbergasted and said I was charging too much. Aha! you just said they could shop around so now what!

People call me I tell them the rate, you don't like it go for the crappy company. You want it done top notch I'm your guy and it will cost you more. Over here the elderly have money, it's a government city. I charge everyone the same doesn't matter the age. You can't afford a house there's always an option for them to get a condo or rent an apartment or an old age home room. When they go to an old age home guess how much it costs a month 2000$ to 4500$ and are served canned pureed carrots and dried flakes mashed potatoes.

I need to make a lot of money to provide high quality services on a very few calls that come in and the fact I have way more responsibilities as a contractor.


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## ShtRnsdownhill

Tango said:


> Like the lawyer working at the association told me on the phone people can choose to hire who they want and shop prices all they want. The contradiction came from her next statement when she asked what my hourly rate was. She was flabbergasted and said I was charging too much. Aha! you just said they could shop around so now what!
> 
> People call me I tell them the rate, you don't like it go for the crappy company. You want it done top notch I'm your guy and it will cost you more. Over here the elderly have money, it's a government city. I charge everyone the same doesn't matter the age. You can't afford a house there's always an option for them to get a condo or rent an apartment or an old age home room. When they go to an old age home guess how much it costs a month 2000$ to 4500$ and are served canned pureed carrots and dried flakes mashed potatoes.
> 
> I need to make a lot of money to provide high quality services on a very few calls that come in and the fact I have way more responsibilities as a contractor.



ask the scum bag lawyer what her hourly rate she was charging the association before you told her your rate...bet she wouldnt answer that..:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## Tango

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> ask the scum bag lawyer what her hourly rate she was charging the association before you told her your rate...bet she wouldnt answer that..:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


I think she is an employee and not really on their own. I could make a close guesstimate to what they make based on the breakdown of costs it incurred last year. I remember a lump sum for the wages of employees. I would need to find that paper. Without any facts or checking I'd say close to 100 000$ if not more.


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## Greg755

> dont take this the wrong way, but your the prime example of someone that wants to stay poor and doesnt value themselves much above dirt on the floor..



Really how can a guy NOT take that the wrong way??? Not only does he respect himself he respects others, thats why he gives old people a break if they have low income.

Apparently YOU only like your self... That has nothing to do with respect.. Pretty immature of you to comment such a thing in an open forum... 
You may think you have it figured out but it only takes a couple small things to put you out on the street... To stand High and mighty and judge your customers is not right, its also not right to rip some one off because they make a lot of money... 
Like they say what goes around comes around... Good luck.
*Honest Plumber* is on the right track.


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## ShtRnsdownhill

Greg755 said:


> Really how can a guy NOT take that the wrong way??? Not only does he respect himself he respects others, thats why he gives old people a break if they have low income.
> 
> Apparently YOU only like your self... That has nothing to do with respect.. Pretty immature of you to comment such a thing in an open forum...
> You may think you have it figured out but it only takes a couple small things to put you out on the street... To stand High and mighty and judge your customers is not right, its also not right to rip some one off because they make a lot of money...
> Like they say what goes around comes around... Good luck.
> *Honest Plumber* is on the right track.



BLAH BLAH BLAH go preach to some one that gives a rats a$$ what you say...because I sure dont...


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## MirMahmutovic#

We don't rip people off. The shop charges what they charge. We just do the work. We might not be a cheap shop, but we do not RIP people off. There's shop here that work on commission where guys go sell work for that doesnt need to be done just to make more money for themselves. I've had people tell me that they were going to pay $1300 for a new Toto to be installed when all that needed was a tank rebuild. We work for working class people, rich & poor. We do the work well,clean up & people dont have to worry about the work not being done well.


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## MirMahmutovic#

The shop quotes them prices, if it's a straight forward job. If their is leak or something $250 for up to a hour to diagnose & investigate. This usually only happens when it's in a wall or something like that. Were good about finding those quickly. They have to accept a quote,sign it electronically, for us to do the work. If theres a change or something if they dont agree to it we just put whatever was there back and walk away. Like if you to to reset a leaking toilet & the coller is 2 inches below the floor & they dont want to pay the additional cost to raise the ac coller flush to the floor.


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## MirMahmutovic#

Journeymen make between $35 to $48 based on how good they are. If you can do good pipe work & troubleshoot & repairs your making $40 plus easily. The thing is here most of our competitors pay their guys based on commission. So guys go and sell work all day long. They will charge some one $2200 to install a clean out to rodd out the main. We dont do **** like that, we'll rode from the catch basin thru a 6 inch PVC pipe. I know some guys think were rip offs but we never go to a job and just charge someone for whatever. The shop informa them of the pricing ahead of time each and every time. Hell we cant even do the work of they dont sign the quote the shop sent them.


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## ShtRnsdownhill

MirMahmutovic# said:


> We don't rip people off. The shop charges what they charge. We just do the work. We might not be a cheap shop, but we do not RIP people off. There's shop here that work on commission where guys go sell work for that doesnt need to be done just to make more money for themselves. I've had people tell me that they were going to pay $1300 for a new Toto to be installed when all that needed was a tank rebuild. We work for working class people, rich & poor. We do the work well,clean up & people dont have to worry about the work not being done well.



people here need to know the difference between ripping a customer off or charging for quality service..ripping off is when you charge a customer and dont fix the problem or do shoddy work, charging a good fee for your work and providing quality work costs money, people are free to shop around if they dont like my price, but price is secondary to many people if no aggravation or problems with the work is avoided..and if anyone has a problem with charging more working in a multi million $$ home than some old poor lady ,well thats your problem not mine, the home owner in both sides can choose to use some one else as said before, the multi million $$ homeowner wants it done right the first time with no problems and is willing to pay top $$ to get it done...you can work for whatever you want when you own your own business, but dont get on your soapbox and preach business ethics because you dont want to make money..this not geared to this poster but to grego..


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## MirMahmutovic#

So when I got hired the shop told me it is unfair to charge people differently. Our prices are the same around the board. No matter the person or loacation. Like the boss told me once, if they cant or dont want to pay they are free to have someone else do the work. So at the end of the day I just do the work and go home. At the end off the day when the boss gets his $2000 after material & I get my $250 for a 8hr work day were both happy & the customer as well cuz in a year with this shop we've had 3 call backs. That money well spent if you ask me.


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## ShtRnsdownhill

MirMahmutovic# said:


> So when I got hired the shop told me it is unfair to charge people differently. Our prices are the same around the board. No matter the person or loacation. Like the boss told me once, if they cant or dont want to pay they are free to have someone else do the work. So at the end of the day I just do the work and go home. At the end off the day when the boss gets his $2000 after material & I get my $250 for a 8hr work day were both happy & the customer as well cuz in a year with this shop we've had 3 call backs. That money well spent if you ask me.



the customer determines the value of his service, have you ever heard the term " white glove service"? people pay extra to be taken care of better....same logic to plumbing..so you work in a multi million $$ house and have to do a boiler job and they have expensive exotic wood floors.takes alot more to make sure those floors dont get damaged, way less than an average house with home depot carpeting...
and even on work that is the same..big house big money small house smaller money...if you want to get ahead, you charge your value and anyone is free to go somewhere else..do good work without problems and you will get called back for more work all the time, even if you think they are being overcharged....now are you happy at $250.00 a day for pay? do you think you are worth more? would your boss pay you more or fire you if you asked for a raise?


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## Tango

MirMahmutovic# said:


> The shop quotes them prices, if it's a straight forward job. If their is leak or something $250 for up to a hour to diagnose & investigate. This usually only happens when it's in a wall or something like that. Were good about finding those quickly. They have to accept a quote,sign it electronically, for us to do the work. If theres a change or something if they dont agree to it we just put whatever was there back and walk away. Like if you to to reset a leaking toilet & the coller is 2 inches below the floor & they dont want to pay the additional cost to raise the ac coller flush to the floor.


What do you do in this case because you can't complete the job because he doesn't want to pay extra. If you reset it with 4 wax then you own the hackery and when it leaks you pay for it. If you leave the toilet aside you haven't fulfilled your obligation. Is something written on your work order to get you out of an issue like this?


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## ShtRnsdownhill

MirMahmutovic# said:


> The shop quotes them prices, if it's a straight forward job. If their is leak or something $250 for up to a hour to diagnose & investigate. This usually only happens when it's in a wall or something like that. Were good about finding those quickly. They have to accept a quote,sign it electronically, for us to do the work. If theres a change or something if they dont agree to it we just put whatever was there back and walk away. Like if you to to reset a leaking toilet & the coller is 2 inches below the floor & they dont want to pay the additional cost to raise the ac coller flush to the floor.



do you charge for the service call? its not the shops fault for hidden expenses..if not thats crazy to lose the time and labor...and you now have the liability of what you touched and no profit to cover it..


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## MirMahmutovic#

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> MirMahmutovic# said:
> 
> 
> 
> So when I got hired the shop told me it is unfair to charge people differently. Our prices are the same around the board. No matter the person or loacation. Like the boss told me once, if they cant or dont want to pay they are free to have someone else do the work. So at the end of the day I just do the work and go home. At the end off the day when the boss gets his $2000 after material & I get my $250 for a 8hr work day were both happy & the customer as well cuz in a year with this shop we've had 3 call backs. That money well spent if you ask me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the customer determines the value of his service, have you ever heard the term " white glove service"? people pay extra to be taken care of better....same logic to plumbing..so you work in a multi million $$ house and have to do a boiler job and they have expensive exotic wood floors.takes alot more to make sure those floors dont get damaged, way less than an average house with home depot carpeting...
> and even on work that is the same..big house big money small house smaller money...if you want to get ahead, you charge your value and anyone is free to go somewhere else..do good work without problems and you will get called back for more work all the time, even if you think they are being overcharged....now are you happy at $250.00 a day for pay? do you think you are worth more? would your boss pay you more or fire you if you asked for a raise?
Click to expand...

I'm happy at that rate because I only have 2 years on the card. So I'm making awsome money as an Apprentice. The boss is going to give me $5 a year till I get my lisence. So when i get my lisence I'll be at $46 or so. Its awsome money to do something you love. I was a Union Maintenance guy for 6 years was making more before but hated the work. I loved plumbing, we were responsible for all the trim stuff at the property I worked at. So I decided to get into it full time.


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## jeffreyplumber

MirMahmutovic# said:


> Journeymen make between $35 to $48 based on how good they are. If you can do good pipe work & troubleshoot & repairs your making $40 plus easily. The thing is here most of our competitors pay their guys based on commission. So guys go and sell work all day long. They will charge some one $2200 to install a clean out to rodd out the main. We dont do **** like that, we'll rode from the catch basin thru a 6 inch PVC pipe. I know some guys think were rip offs but we never go to a job and just charge someone for whatever. The shop informa them of the pricing ahead of time each and every time. Hell we cant even do the work of they dont sign the quote the shop sent them.


 Just as your company informs the customer what thier hourly rate will be and that the finished bill is unforseeble . A flat rate plumber informs thier customer what thier entire bill is with no upcharges. A flat rat plumber can be a crook and so can a straight hourly. Neither one is automaticaly crooked.


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## jeffreyplumber

With a 250 an hour shop rate I guess the slowest plumber should get the most pay. where is incentive to hustle?


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## MirMahmutovic#

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> MirMahmutovic# said:
> 
> 
> 
> The shop quotes them prices, if it's a straight forward job. If their is leak or something $250 for up to a hour to diagnose & investigate. This usually only happens when it's in a wall or something like that. Were good about finding those quickly. They have to accept a quote,sign it electronically, for us to do the work. If theres a change or something if they dont agree to it we just put whatever was there back and walk away. Like if you to to reset a leaking toilet & the coller is 2 inches below the floor & they dont want to pay the additional cost to raise the ac coller flush to the floor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> do you charge for the service call? its not the shops fault for hidden expenses..if not thats crazy to lose the time and labor...and you now have the liability of what you touched and no profit to cover it..
Click to expand...

It all depends on the situation. We notify the customer as soon as we find out and call the shop to discuss pricing for the extra work. The shop then calls the customer and explains the options to them. I want to say 90% of the time the customer agrees to the change. If they dont them we usually put it back together the right way & the shop charges $250 for the first hour & then counts every 15 minutes at $65 bucks. The shop has something in writing in the quote that removes us from liability on unforeseen additional repairs.


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## MirMahmutovic#

jeffreyplumber said:


> With a 250 an hour shop rate I guess the slowest plumber should get the most pay. where is incentive to hustle?


Everything is priced out a head of time, we walk into the customers home with them being aware of the money they will have to pay for said repair. Also the shop has time set up for jobs thru out the day. So you do a toilet for 1 hour a 50 gallon water heater in 4 that type of stuff.


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## MirMahmutovic#

jeffreyplumber said:


> MirMahmutovic# said:
> 
> 
> 
> Journeymen make between $35 to $48 based on how good they are. If you can do good pipe work & troubleshoot & repairs your making $40 plus easily. The thing is here most of our competitors pay their guys based on commission. So guys go and sell work all day long. They will charge some one $2200 to install a clean out to rodd out the main. We dont do **** like that, we'll rode from the catch basin thru a 6 inch PVC pipe. I know some guys think were rip offs but we never go to a job and just charge someone for whatever. The shop informa them of the pricing ahead of time each and every time. Hell we cant even do the work of they dont sign the quote the shop sent them.
> 
> 
> 
> Just as your company informs the customer what thier hourly rate will be and that the finished bill is unforseeble . A flat rate plumber informs thier customer what thier entire bill is with no upcharges. A flat rat plumber can be a crook and so can a straight hourly. Neither one is automaticaly crooked.
Click to expand...

True but my shop sends the customer a quote upfront so they know the pricing ahead of time. The shop charges the $250 per hour for stuff like when it's a high end Ghroe and we dont carry the parts on the truck so they do it on time and material. Most of the time the customer knows the price upfront.


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## MirMahmutovic#

Tango said:


> MirMahmutovic# said:
> 
> 
> 
> The shop quotes them prices, if it's a straight forward job. If their is leak or something $250 for up to a hour to diagnose & investigate. This usually only happens when it's in a wall or something like that. Were good about finding those quickly. They have to accept a quote,sign it electronically, for us to do the work. If theres a change or something if they dont agree to it we just put whatever was there back and walk away. Like if you to to reset a leaking toilet & the coller is 2 inches below the floor & they dont want to pay the additional cost to raise the ac coller flush to the floor.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you do in this case because you can't complete the job because he doesn't want to pay extra. If you reset it with 4 wax then you own the hackery and when it leaks you pay for it. If you leave the toilet aside you haven't fulfilled your obligation. Is something written on your work order to get you out of an issue like this?
Click to expand...

The shop has stuff in writing for situations like this on the work order. 90% of the time they go ahead with the repair. They usually figure it out with the customer. People are reasonable.


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## Alan

Tango said:


> I'm not going flat rate anytime soon, too much hacking. Take it slow and no pressure on my part when I find out his pipes have disintegrated, the clock keeps on ticking and more parts get added on the bill. Otherwise I'd be constantly fixing hack stuff for free.


Ah, but see you're already on your way there. With a little bit of tracking you should be able to figure out what is your worst case scenario on certain types of jobs. Then decide how many times on average are you hitting worst case scenario, and start setting up flat rate pricing accordingly.

I could do the same thing, but I've found most people would rather pay me hourly no matter how long it takes.


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## HonestPlumb

Tango said:


> HonestPlumb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course we're all in business to make money, but justifying or rationalizing charging an 80 year old lady who lives alone on SS, $450 + to rebuild a two piece wc in 1/2 to 3/4 of an hour with $50 in materials, doesn't sit right with me.
> 
> 
> 
> Like the lawyer working at the association told me on the phone people can choose to hire who they want and shop prices all they want. The contradiction came from her next statement when she asked what my hourly rate was. She was flabbergasted and said I was charging too much. Aha! you just said they could shop around so now what!
> 
> People call me I tell them the rate, you don't like it go for the crappy company. You want it done top notch I'm your guy and it will cost you more. Over here the elderly have money, it's a government city. I charge everyone the same doesn't matter the age. You can't afford a house there's always an option for them to get a condo or rent an apartment or an old age home room. When they go to an old age home guess how much it costs a month 2000$ to 4500$ and are served canned pureed carrots and dried flakes mashed potatoes.
> 
> I need to make a lot of money to provide high quality services on a very few calls that come in and the fact I have way more responsibilities as a contractor.
Click to expand...

I am not saying I work dirt cheap. My hourly rate is $155 an hour.
I have become a 2 man shop since 2013. My 32 year old son, and myself. He has been with me since before high school. Hopefully he will takeover soon, and with his A/C and Refrigeration training, he will expand the business to whatever level he chooses.
My shop was 6 guys previous to 2013, and through those years I averaged around $300K a year, before taxes. That being the case, my wife and I had a plan to retire by 55.
Then came the crash of 2008, 9 and 10. Work just dried up ! I laid off 5 of 6 guys. Every economical down spin prior, this town felt a small ripple, and shortly came back to normal. Not this 
time ! Unfortunately, didn't realize it until it was to late. Four of my guys had families, and I would have felt really bad laying them off. So I was paying them to clean their trucks, the shop, etc., trying to get them their hours in. There went a major amount of our retirement fund. Obviously if hindsight were 20/20...
I do not know your age, but I just turned 60. From the day I began working full time at 18, I have always taken a lot of pride in my work. I have been in one form of construction or another my entire life. The last 35 in plumbing and heating. Every job, whether I was an employee or employer, the "work" was mine ! So I always have attempted to do the best quality job possible, with no short cuts and crappy materials. I believe in being sociable with my customers in respect to the way I intereact with them, yet still keep a bit of distance. Otherwise they adopt the "friends and family" mentality of believing they should receive a cheap price. 
In the late 90's to about 2008, there was a tremendous amount of work. That same period of time I had a 6 man shop. The Wall Street bunch in the town I live in, and surrounding area, were making 10's to 100's of millions a year ! Some of the wives, I got to know pretty well on a friendly basis. 
I was comfortable enough to enquire on what the levels of compensation people in their husbands area of the financial industry were making. Mid level had base salaries of $250K to $750K a year, but their bonuses based on performance could reach 10 times that ! Had a few top level customers that their base pay and bonuses were public knowledge, the guys that were getting $20 Million bonuses ! 
The reason I mention it is because you made the comment about the"money is no object" crowd, that we should get as much as we can !
I dissagree that because some are fortunate enough to earn that level of income (for not working nearly as hard as we do) should be "hammered". As I normally charge on a T and M basis, I don't hesitate to charge them for every second, plus travel, or going for materials. Yes, I do give the 80 year old lady a break, who survives on Social Security, that lives month to month. There are also very many 80 year old customers that are wealthy beyond compare. That period of time I mentioned, there was more work than everyone could handle. Those people were putting additions on their houses that cost as much as the house. Some doing it, when they had already done it the prior year. They either put the money into their house, or give it to the IRS !
I am not sure how old you are, but I am 60 and have realized that having a ton of money, while making you financially secure, in no way guarantees happiness. I have a beautiful wife, inside and out for the last 37 years. A hard-working son, who is kind, but stubborn like his "old man", and a daughter who is her mother's twin. Who has given me two beautiful Grandchildren ! I make enough so my wife doesn't have to work, and can help my daughter, and spend a lot of time with the Grandkids.
I too believe in taking pride in my work, and giving a customer the best job possible. Which is definitely worth much more than the hack who does half assed work, and robs customers ! In those flush (no pun intended) years, there were tradesman from 100's of miles away coming here. Either not licensed in this state, or not at all ! No insurance, workers Comp, and worked out of a station wagon ! All but a very few were absolute hacks ! Things have changed in the last 20 or so years. The trusting, loyal customers, are dwindling. Most of my cutomer base were in their senior years. They have moved away or passed. Now, the majority are 30 to 45 years old, and have no sense of loyalty, or trust !
Most likely what you said is likely the truth, I "will" die with a wrench in my hand", under a customers kitchen 
sink ! Yet, there are many that have a much tougher existance !!
Sorry for "rambling on" guys !!


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## Master Mark

HonestPlumb;1 In those flush (no pun intended) years said:


> Yet, there are many that have a much tougher existance !![/B]
> Sorry for "rambling on" guys !!


I dont mind the idea of doing this until I die either.... Most people dont realize how good they actually have it compared to so many totally helpless souls that are not capable of any kind of real work....or not willing to try 

Some day soon all those neighbors of yours will probably be down on their asses when the whole thing crashes again....If they put away enough money in the bank perhaps they will be ok,,, as long as the bank and the money is still good... 

Once we open up the borders and let maybe 10-30 million people into this country who cant read or write, then we can all hire dirt cheap labor and basically have slaves for life. More than half of them will immediately get on the welfare system and then things might not come back again like every time before... but n the bright side, the immigrants will all be good voting democrats so its all gonna be ok..... :vs_laugh: 
I dont think the welfare system will be able to handle this next big wave of dumbasses that they want to let in so look out below...... I question if social security will be able to handle this too so I plan on working with the hopes that I will get a few years of soc sec before it craters too..........

On another note
I just went to a food kitchen for the homeless last week to give them an estimate for a new water heater.... Lucky me... I got there right at feeding time and it was a sight to see......About 75 old men in insulated suits show up out of the cold and line up for a free meal..... I am standing there in my Rheem carthart jacket with my company name on it and felt like a piece of steak among a bunch of wolves.....and out by my truck I think they were doing crack in the dumpster area that has a blocked wall around it .....:surprise: 
I am pretty sure half of these guys have seen my building near by and have thought of breaking in the place......or at least have scoured through my dumpster 
I should have had my gun on me 

I decided to turn down this job cause I dont need the exposure and some of these boys looked seriously mental......

you dont realize how good you really have it until you see what 
rock bottom looks like


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## Tango

Alan said:


> Ah, but see you're already on your way there. With a little bit of tracking you should be able to figure out what is your worst case scenario on certain types of jobs. Then decide how many times on average are you hitting worst case scenario, and start setting up flat rate pricing accordingly.
> 
> I could do the same thing, but I've found most people would rather pay me hourly no matter how long it takes.


I have found people are okay with T/M. They ask how much will it be and I say about 1 hour and a half. When I discover a toilet flange that is broken I ask them if they want a repair no guarantee or a replacement. I get about 80% repair response.

My girlfriend is against it 100%

What I feel at the moment : The problem with Flat rate is that I feel uneasy to tell them nothing on price on the phone. Most have no idea a plumbing job costs a lot of money. I would however charge a service call just to go there and in case they refuse the price tag. I would have them sign my work order right away for the service call otherwise when some get a sticker shock they are outraged and won't pay up let's say a 60$ service call. 


For now I still have many accents calling sometimes it's barely noticeable and I'm not sure if they are ingrained locals that are accustomed but they all have the attitude it's too expensive. When I say the hourly rate they move on and I didn't waste my sanity.


If I'm FR then they don't understand the service call concept and will fight to the death the price of the whole job is 60$ Trust me I've been there and a 30 minute argument and tantrum ensues. That and the fact they never have the full amount and I have to follow them to the bank while they go fill up their car with gas and realize the atm machine doesn't release enough money. The soap thread doesn't come close to actual events sometimes.


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## Tango

Master Mark said:


> I decided to turn down this job cause I dont need the exposure and some of these boys looked seriously mental......
> 
> you dont realize how good you really have it until you see what
> rock bottom looks like



There are a ton of homeless people because they are no longer cared for by mental hospitals. They release them probably because of the lack of funds. They are too troubled to get a residence or a job. They are shoved out with a list of medications that usually helps but those medication often cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars each month. If you don't have insurance they won't pay and these poor souls end up on the street and self medicate with street drugs.

Some of them are smart people but because they have anxiety attacks and other issues they physically can't work a regular job. If there is nobody to help them financially to lead a life but unable to work a full day or even a half day because it creates so much turmoil then end up on the street.


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## Master Mark

Tango said:


> There are a ton of homeless people because they are no longer cared for by mental hospitals. They release them probably because of the lack of funds. They are too troubled to get a residence or a job. They are shoved out with a list of medications that usually helps but those medication often cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars each month. If you don't have insurance they won't pay and these poor souls end up on the street and self medicate with street drugs.
> 
> Some of them are smart people but because they have anxiety attacks and other issues they physically can't work a regular job. If there is nobody to help them financially to lead a life but unable to work a full day or even a half day because it creates so much turmoil then end up on the street.



I feel sorry for them but you cant save everybody and so many people today are frying their brains on acid, crack, meth and god knows what else..... and booze too.....

So what do they do in liberal canada with all of them?? In our country the only time they care about them is when want to get them to the voting booths to vote on voting day......

Their are a lot of reasons these souls are where they are, and maybe they ought to just put up some kind of military type of barracks in the middle of every town to house the thousands of them . I dont know


I dont think Obama or Nancy Peliso will be willing to take any of them into their homes and how many do you want???


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## Tango

Master Mark said:


> So what do they do in liberal canada with all of them??


From the ground view they leave them on the streets wandering, panhandling and getting chow at several missions. Some do the shuffle(probably meth) and one I don't see him anymore used to wear a pair of underwear on his head.

There is one guy who fell off the perch of the cuckoo clock, I see him lots of times, he tosses a coin high in the air and tries to catch it on the way down. He then does a 360 like a ballerina and bows. It's freaking dangerous in rush hour traffic right on the narrow divider. When he misses the coin rolls into the traffic. I'm wondering if its an imaginary coin now as he always catches it since last year.


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## Master Mark

Tango said:


> From the ground view they leave them on the streets wandering, panhandling and getting chow at several missions. Some do the shuffle(probably meth) and one I don't see him anymore used to wear a pair of underwear on his head.
> 
> There is one guy who fell off the perch of the cuckoo clock, I see him lots of times, he tosses a coin high in the air and tries to catch it on the way down. He then does a 360 like a ballerina and bows. It's freaking dangerous in rush hour traffic right on the narrow divider. When he misses the coin rolls into the traffic. I'm wondering if its an imaginary coin now as he always catches it since last year.



I figured with free health care that they would be doing more to help all the insane people up there......

they just legalized weed, so what kind of liberals are they anyway??

.


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## Tango

Master Mark said:


> I figured with free health care that they would be doing more to help all the insane people up there......
> 
> they just legalized weed, so what kind of liberals are they anyway??
> 
> .



Free healthcare but the meds aren't. Take me for example I used to have 90% coverage in construction. Now I have the public system. They shave a lot but I still pay a good portion. 

Psychologists aren't free over 250$/hour and they tell you to draw pictures and imagine the beach for cripes sake! They don't even supply the coloring pencils at that price!

Psychiatrist are public but if the person doesn't want to go nobody will force them to. They'll prescribe medicine costing hundreds or thousands. Not everyone can afford them.

Dentists aren't free, a root canal cost 1600$ for 50 minutes work for a little lead free solder and some flux!!! But people complain plumbers are expensive!!


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## Tango

Weed....they legalize it but you can't buy it because the stores aren't open! hahaha.

And the stores that are open scare away business to the shops surrounding it. Guys in line whistling at women going to the clothes shop next door. They are crowding the other business restrooms littering the sidewalk with coffee cups, cigarettes while waiting to get in the weed store etc. Those businesses are about to close their doors, there's too many undesirables outside and customers are turning away.


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