# It's a sad fact in Plumbing Right Now



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

But there is something more than obvious happening to this profession.


Discuss. :001_unsure:


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

What? That plumbers continue to argue over the use of pex?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

The average plumber is an uneducated hack?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Could that be the way the PROFESSION has been sold down the crapper by the WHORES! in the industry and plumbing boards and code review boards. All those money grubbing SOB's that care more about putting money in their pockets than upholding a century old's tradition of Protecting the Health and Safety of the Public ? That they have decided that PEX, AAV's Flexi supplies, Flexi- traps, sharkbites, plastic pipe hangers, CSST and a host of other ABOARTIONS are good for the industry and better yet, good for profits. That they have managed to convince an entire generation of plumbers that faster is better. Profits are determined by the speed of the job and not the quality of the work. It's all CRAP. It's been CRAP since PVC came on the market. Go ahead and do a little historical research. You can directly tie the introduction of PVC to ever decreasing wages, status and quality in the PROFESSION (never forget plumbing is not a damn trade. It is listed as a Profession. Electricians and masons have a stinkin trade) So go ahead and make your arguments but in your heart of heart you know damn well you have a lot more respect for plumbers of yesterday than you do for plumbers today and so does the public. Thanks PHCC for sticking it up our you know what for the past 40 years.

Now if you will all excuse me, It's been a couple days since I took my meds. :thumbsup:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Ahh I knew this would be fodder for nhmaster3015! :thumbup:


Isn't it amazing how so much can be said in so few words? 

I know this to be true with my wisdom found in my gray hair, my years in this profession and the turpitude of my customers.


"What?! A Plumber? We need to call our cuzzin' jeff, he fixed the plumbing for ant carol. Call him, call him and see if he can come over, we'll buy him a case of beer."


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Protech said:


> The average plumber is an uneducated hack?


 
You got an excellent point there, and is worthy of more discussion because that's an untold story that isn't mentioned in this profession when it comes to capabilties. Ask ToUtahnow about that question and his years will justify how some of us really don't know.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I wouldn't let anyone let anyone put cast iron in my home if they did it for free. Same goes for pex in a new house for me here...No way i want copper atleast type L. Copper will outlast pex here 9 out of 10 times.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

It is a tall order to buck the butt-crack showing, I'm a dumbass plumber image. In some areas our profession is gaining ground. I'm not sure the residential service sector is one of them. 

The professionals on the board are the exception. Not the rule unfortunately. One way we help each other learn is right here on the PZ.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Protech said:


> The average plumber is an uneducated hack?


Yes, probably to some extent. Why? What happened? When did the whole system break down? 

Could it be that in a lot of states you can have your masters license in a few as 4 1/2 years from the start of your apprenticeship ? 

Could it be that a lot of states give the plumbing exams open book ?

Or could it be that we, the plumbers of America have forgotten that the profession needs to be protected from the whores and the hacks. It's a lot like politics. If you don't keep your eyes open and take a stand you are going to get crapped on.


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## Christina (Jul 14, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> So go ahead and make your arguments but in your heart of heart you know damn well you have a lot more respect for plumbers of yesterday than you do for plumbers today and so does the public.


OK, So I will admit that I do have more respect for an aged plumber of yesteryear than I have for one that tested yesterday. I hear stories of how "back in the day" you had to not only test (paper) but you had to test (material) also. You would actually sweat copper, plumb a small module...etc. The only thing that the system in 'Oklahoma' tests for now (also the same test that is given in several states across the U.S.) is the ability to study for and take a test, and of course the ability to understand what they are saying in the codebook. So, to that NH I will give a knod! :yes:



Colgar said:


> What? That plumbers continue to argue over the use of pex?


We have a plumber here in town that does mainly new construction. A very good plumber that I have much respect for. For (((years))) they were the only plumbing company left using copper only. Until the builder got word of the price difference. He shopped prices on his "honorable" plumber... and his plumber lost the bid. To keep from losing his builder/customer the plumber had to give the choice (copper or pex) on his bid. Of course the builder went with the cheaper of the two. I spoke with this plumber a few weeks ago and he snirled at the fact he was being 'forced' to use pex- but he had to in order to keep work coming in. With the economy the way it is... people are getting more snug with their money and it is forcing some to come down from their 'norm' in order to keep work coming in.



DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> But there is something more than obvious happening to this profession. Discuss. :001_unsure:


I can remember sitting in a regional plumber/inspector meeting in Lawton just last summer. The discussion was the loss in help. The numbers of 'licensed' plumbers in this state have dropped by almost half since 1979. There is not a large amount of 'kids' that plumbing interests. The main number of your younger plumbers coming into the trade are the ones that are raised in it. We did a job fair at the local highschool a few years ago and the kids are more concerned with digging, getting sewage on them, diseases, etc. We have a bad image in 'childrens' minds and it teaches them from an early age to look the other way. There are good honest people that are out to seek a profession. But, there are also uneducated people trying to either earn a quick dollar or help out Aunt Ima's neighbor.
What do I think could happen to help this trade?
Furthering the education of the general public on the dangers of improper plumbing (ie: plugged/ undersized tpr, gas (ng & lp), backflow, airgaps, etc.)
and also furthering the education of the younger generations. There are repair plumbers (both residential and commercial), there are new construction plumbers (both residential and commercial), etc. 
If this were to happen (atleast with the general public) people would not mind spending an average of $100/hr to ensure that their 'plumbing' is done correctly.

OK, that is my $0.02 (sorry it is so stinking long).


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## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

*In Memory*

My grandfathers profile:

Plumbers apprentice starts soon after WWII.
Plumbs for years, starts his own business after getting his masters.
Business fails early 70's
Gets job with city of FT.WORTH- plumbing inspector.
Becomes chief inspector after a few years.
Becomes IAPMO president around 1978-80.
Retires 1990

I can remember as a boy watching him , listening to him angrily talk about how the profession was tanking. He would take me on inspections, job sites, always telling me to "stay away from those welders they're wierd". 

His generation did it different than us, we are doing it different than the next generation. That's life.

I just think it's wierd that today it takes a $2500.00 tool to something a guy used to do with 50 cents worth of sweat.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Cry babies. Challenges are all over. Its not the problem-pvc or pex or tools. And a stronger plumbing industry is not the solution for an antiquated perspective. If you cant adapt you might not survive. Find a way. If you cant, look to some who have found a solution. Crape hangin addiction is more of a problem than product.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

N0t so quick stillaround. 


We have a couple/few talented plumbers on this site that got bit by the economy, and their expertise was more than just a crying spell. 

Do you understand the justification of a homeowner or handyman now, now that they can justify a $7-$12 fitting (sharkbite) that eliminates the skill to make a watertight connection?


It's that easy, and you might owe an apology to those who went out of business in these tough times. You and I are not special, and we can easily be on that chopping block as well.


I'm staring at year 8 and still don't feel comfortable. It's by my own doings of exploring other business ventures but I miss the powerpacked income I'm used to, not even 18 months ago.


I used to do 70+ broken outdoor hose faucets in spring every year.

This year? I think I did 30, and they was scattered throughout the entire year.

Now there's a fitting that push connects to the end of that damn faucet and all but eliminates my standard charge to replace.

Am I crying or dealing with reality.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Thats not the issue for me. Negativism is infectious. So is wallowing and self pity. This soap box has been worn out. Buggy whip comes to mind. I cant-ism starts from within. Its not a good therapy especially in tough times. There are plenty of success stories. We all have to learn something new and be prepared for change and to change. We can learn from one another--but not this way. OK if you want a good cry about the changes out there go ahead and then lets move past it. Thats my perspective, Im not saying what to post or say--feel free. I do.
How about make a plan, forge a strategy. Any sales literature, self help or motivation rhetoric says to steer clear from people who cant see the positive side. Its out there. Thru education, effort. The ZIg Zigler stuff talks about the whole life for success as spokes in a wheel--relationships, attitude. Even Sugar Ray Leonard spoke at a conference I was at--the fight is won or lost in the mind. 
Im not on any ones case, I care about everyone here and dont want to rile or offend...just thought a little 180 on this was good.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

stillaround said:


> Thats not the issue for me. Negativism is infectious. So is wallowing and self pity. This soap box has been worn out. Buggy whip comes to mind. I cant-ism starts from within. Its not a good therapy especially in tough times. There are plenty of success stories. We all have to learn something new and be prepared for change and to change. We can learn from one another--but not this way. OK if you want a good cry about the changes out there go ahead and then lets move past it. Thats my perspective, Im not saying what to post or say--feel free. I do.
> How about make a plan, forge a strategy. Any sales literature, self help or motivation rhetoric says to steer clear from people who cant see the positive side. Its out there. Thru education, effort. The ZIg Zigler stuff talks about the whole life for success as spokes in a wheel--relationships, attitude. Even Sugar Ray Leonard spoke at a conference I was at--the fight is won or lost in the mind.
> Im not on any ones case, I care about everyone here and dont want to rile or offend...just thought a little 180 on this was good.


I suspect that you have no idea what really "good times" are like. I'll bet like most you are scraping by. You can put a big smile on your face and be as optimistic as you want but if you won't stand up for anything, it's only a matter of time before you are on the welfare line also. This ain't a matter of "buggy whip" mentality. It's a persistent cheapening and degradation of the plumbing profession from within. Its the acquisition of quick profits at the expense of the public and those that work to protect them. Not surprisingly though, there is always someone willing to defend the indefensible. So how's about we get the christ off our asses and start attending board and review meetings. How's about we storm the PHCC and demand that they actually take our dues and represent our interests instead of the manufacturers for a change. How's about we have some real input on the crap being foisted on us? It could be as simple as REFUSING to buy this junk.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

You know the Norman Rockwell picture that has immortalized the plumbers ( the two spraying the perfume bottle). You know the butt-crack image that everyone relates to. Instead of charging the PHCC and making demands, we might need to put the efforts here. You educate..that is important..how about each "individual" who wants to better themselves start educating themselves and then the successes they show will be a provocation to the others. Im not lending support to a government action or the PHCC. And Ill probably not renew my NFIB membership. And laying siege to Lowes and Home Depot wont work. But I'll work.
And BTW, you will never see me on a welfare line.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

stillaround said:


> Thats not the issue for me. Negativism is infectious. So is wallowing and self pity. This soap box has been worn out. Buggy whip comes to mind. I cant-ism starts from within. Its not a good therapy especially in tough times. There are plenty of success stories. We all have to learn something new and be prepared for change and to change. We can learn from one another--but not this way. OK if you want a good cry about the changes out there go ahead and then lets move past it. Thats my perspective, Im not saying what to post or say--feel free. I do.
> How about make a plan, forge a strategy. Any sales literature, self help or motivation rhetoric says to steer clear from people who cant see the positive side. Its out there. Thru education, effort. The ZIg Zigler stuff talks about the whole life for success as spokes in a wheel--relationships, attitude. Even Sugar Ray Leonard spoke at a conference I was at--the fight is won or lost in the mind.
> Im not on any ones case, I care about everyone here and dont want to rile or offend...just thought a little 180 on this was good.


 

I have yet to see or here of a motivational speaker who is not rich. It's easy to be positive when the bank account is full.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Because that would take some initiative on the average plumber's part an we don't want to get of our a$$ and leave our comfort zone. We just want to wait for the phone to ring and go fix/snake pipes.

We must stand up and *FIGHT! *

You are correct nhmaster. I will start going to board meetings. I hate speaking in front of large groups and talking to suits, but it's my dinner plate we are talking about here. I urge everyone (especially Floridians) to do the same.

No one will save the industry for us. It’s up to us. If you are a plumber, this means you.



nhmaster3015 said:


> I suspect that you have no idea what really "good times" are like. I'll bet like most you are scraping by. You can put a big smile on your face and be as optimistic as you want but if you won't stand up for anything, it's only a matter of time before you are on the welfare line also. This ain't a matter of "buggy whip" mentality. It's a persistent cheapening and degradation of the plumbing profession from within. Its the acquisition of quick profits at the expense of the public and those that work to protect them. Not surprisingly though, there is always someone willing to defend the indefensible. So how's about we get the christ off our asses and start attending board and review meetings. How's about we storm the PHCC and demand that they actually take our dues and represent our interests instead of the manufacturers for a change. How's about we have some real input on the crap being foisted on us? It could be as simple as REFUSING to buy this junk.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

I agree Pro, but I do think that anyone who took the risk to open there own shop has shown some initiative.:yes:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Our image can only carry us so far.

If unlicensed dentists or engineers started popping up everywhere and stealing the legit ones work from unsuspecting/uncaring customers, what do you think would happen? The AMA(American Medical Association) would lobby them right out of town.

The problem we have is there is no APA(American Plumbers Association).



stillaround said:


> You know the Norman Rockwell picture that has immortalized the plumbers ( the two spraying the perfume bottle). You know the butt-crack image that everyone relates to. Instead of charging the PHCC and making demands, we might need to put the efforts here. You educate..that is important..how about each "individual" who wants to better themselves start educating themselves and then the successes they show will be a provocation to the others. Im not lending support to a government action or the PHCC. And Ill probably not renew my NFIB membership. And laying siege to Lowes and Home Depot wont work. But I'll work.
> And BTW, you will never see me on a welfare line.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

If they want to keep it open they better show some more. Myself included. 



PLUMB TIME said:


> I agree Pro, but I do think that anyone who took the risk to open there own shop has shown some initiative.:yes:


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Protech said:


> If they want to keep it open they better show some more. Myself included.


 
Ditto. We hung 600 door hangers with coupons and Bears schedules (magnet). We got three calls so far. I never thought I would have done this but this is no time to be to proud:no:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

PLUMB TIME said:


> Ditto. We hung 600 door hangers with coupons and Bears schedules (magnet). We got three calls so far. I never thought I would have done this but this is no time to be to proud:no:


 We knocked on doors and made cold calls and got a couple calls..
Talked to other businesses and all agree we have to go after it. No fun, but it is what it is. This all has nothing to do with PHCC, cheap products blah blah blah. Its a recession. We cant control the banking industry, their mistakes...all we can do is move as quick as possible to some work and pay.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

There are X number clogged sewer lines, leaking water heaters and pipe leaks per month. Someone is fixing them. It's ether you, the HO DIY, or the handy hack. My problem is with the last two.

Recession or not, someone is fixing those plumbing problems.

I know my excuse for not doing more to solve to problem: 

"I don't have time. I've got plumbing to do."

Well, since everyone seems to be slow right now, why not do somthing about it.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

How about some pro-activity that will bring money in faster than an act of congress or a PHCC lobbying effort.
1. Every call is important..
2. Answer the phone ..get the call.
3. If the phone aint ringin enough make a plan..short term and long term. A plan which includes getting out and talking, hangers, flyers, bulletins, knocking on doors, cold calls.....consider the ant....


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## WestCoastPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Protech said:


> The problem we have is there is no APA(American Plumbers Association).


 


I have been wanting to start for years. Any good ideas?


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## Turd Burglar (Sep 26, 2009)

Protech said:


> There are X number clogged sewer lines, leaking water heaters and pipe leaks per month. Someone is fixing them. It's ether you, the HO DIY, or the handy hack. My problem is with the last two.
> 
> Recession or not, someone is fixing those plumbing problems.
> 
> ...


True words. I thought service plumbing was "recession-proof", but with all the homecheepos selling sharkbites and renting machines to DIYers and unemployed handymen, I guess I was wrong.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Turd Burglar said:


> True words. I thought service plumbing was "recession-proof", but with all the homecheepos selling sharkbites and renting machines to DIYers and _*unemployed handymen*_, I guess I was wrong.


 
I agree TB, but I am also losing a lot of work to unemployed professional plumbers who are doing side jobs for $25.00 an hour.:furious:


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## Turd Burglar (Sep 26, 2009)

Its a dark time for the plumbing trade. The strongest will survive and get through this. I just hope that includes me and you guys who are also running prefessional, legitimate shops. Time will tell.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

If you don't show up and let your voice be heard they all assume that you are happy with the status quo


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## hulihan (Aug 11, 2009)

Looks like it is the same everywhere, do not get me started, it is a bummer to see what we see everyday, no one speaks English, and it is all a sad sight, there are still Plumbers here, but not as many as when I started years ago


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## hulihan (Aug 11, 2009)

I am going to a meeting in two weeks, there is a sect of the gov called the EEEC here in Ca, google it, maybe they can make a difference, but I am going to the meeting and if I can, will ask alot of ?????? They have the right agenda, but can they enforce something that is out of control, that is yet to be seen  I do not think they can do anything, we have tried already, the illigal plumbers/contractors is out of control in Los Angeles, and I am not exgerating, it is right in our face daily !


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I have more and more coming in here to buy parts. They ask for something And I tell them I don't have it. But I see it right there.. I need it for a job, you will have to drive 25 mi. to get one... Thanks for coming by!... I have had it!!


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## user2091 (Sep 27, 2009)

Protech you have been nominated for president of the new APA!


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

stillaround said:


> How about some pro-activity that will bring money in faster than an act of congress or a PHCC lobbying effort.
> 1. Every call is important..
> 2. Answer the phone ..get the call.
> 3. If the phone aint ringin enough make a plan..short term and long term. A plan which includes getting out and talking, hangers, flyers, bulletins, knocking on doors, cold calls.....consider the ant....


Yes, good points but remember it ain't all about the money either. It's about getting stupid codes changed and poor quality materials banned from the marketplace. It is about restoring our good name.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

First thing we have to do is get that fuc---- idiot off the internet that has his truck door painted to like like he is sitting on a water closet. Man, that really strengthens our image. If I ever see that prick......:boxing:

Next, get involved with your local association. And not just when it is convenient for you, or business is slow. Sure, if your busy, you aint gonna feel like dragging yourself off to the monthly meeting, but do it anyway.

Turn in every unlicensed that you can to your State board. Wether it be advertisements, trucks in peoples driveways, someone in supply house purchasing plumbing materials, etc. This works. If your state board won't enforce it, get involved and make them. Check regulations on advertising, etc. and if someone is not 100% in compliance, turn them in! (especially the home centers!) I can tell you that alot of ad's are not in compliance. 

These "Bathfitters", "Re-bath", Cheapo, Blowes, and the handy hack are gaining a huge market share. Get involved now before its too late!


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

RJ Pascone said:


> First thing we have to do is get that fuc---- idiot off the internet that has his truck door painted to like like he is sitting on a water closet. Man, that really strengthens our image. If I ever see that prick......:boxing:
> 
> Next, get involved with your local association. And not just when it is convenient for you, or business is slow. Sure, if your busy, you aint gonna feel like dragging yourself off to the monthly meeting, but do it anyway.
> 
> ...


 
I agree, but man, it sometimes feels like a lost cause. Turn people in, nothing happens, turn 'em in again, nothing happens again.

I once asked a St of IL inspector how they planned on enforcing fines. The answer? "We don't know." 

I sometimes think the only thing they want from us is our yearly check.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Bingo. I agree with Colgar.


There's a guy who's dead now that ran for years under the brow and never got popped, the state tried to stop him from operating without a license and nothing made a difference.


I can get fined, in trouble, defamed for not pulling a permit on a water heater but an unlicensed nobody won't even get a mention? Just a cease work till 5pm when the inspector is off the clock? 

Do you think they've cranked up the heat on these types, with more and more in that venue with the economy where it's at? 

Absolutely not.


We are playing the game of politics in our profession. _(throws golden chalice across room)_


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Every trade is hacked on. It always has been. The average person doesn't care about handymen doing work. Nobody cares but the ones who hafta pay that business lic. and plumbing lic. every year like we do. Then what are you suppose to do once you catch the handyman??? jail him? Oh sure they are letting violent criminals out because of over crowding. So jails not an option. Take his money? Well hell yeah if he has any but the ones around here dont. So what are you going to do to? Please I'd love to hear it.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

The goverment is letting people out of jail that molest children and rape women. Not to mention some killers are let go. Meanwhile people are serving life sentences for having been caught with crack and a gun a few times in da hood. I'm not saying the doper with guns should not be in jail but things are F'd up is all I can say. These people molesting kids and raping women should be locked up FOREVER or executed. i get tired of hearing about kids that are kidnapped and found dead and raped. I would gladly pay extra tax money to go toward building jails or whatever. Its to the point you dont even want to let your GF or wife,kids go anywhere alone.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Every trade is hacked on. It always has been. The average person doesn't care about handymen doing work. Nobody cares but the ones who hafta pay that business lic. and plumbing lic. every year like we do. Then what are you suppose to do once you catch the handyman??? jail him? Oh sure they are letting violent criminals out because of over crowding. So jails not an option. Take his money? Well hell yeah if he has any but the ones around here dont. So what are you going to do to? Please I'd love to hear it.


 The Board of Examiners of Master Plumbers (NJ) has been issuing fines for advertising plumbing services without a valid license number on the advertisement. $2500.00. This is not the only violations they enforce. This includes circulars, yellow pages, church flyers, etc. They have been at doing this for about a year. They are not messing around. 
This is due largely in part to several local organizations (county chapter of the State League of Master Plumbers. A couple of guys attend the monthly board meetings. The board finally listened and got serious.


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> The goverment is letting people out of jail that molest children and rape women. Not to mention some killers are let go. Meanwhile people are serving life sentences for having been caught with crack and a gun a few times in da hood. I'm not saying the doper with guns should not be in jail but things are F'd up is all I can say. These people molesting kids and raping women should be locked up FOREVER or executed. i get tired of hearing about kids that are kidnapped and found dead and raped. I would gladly pay extra tax money to go toward building jails or whatever. Its to the point you dont even want to let your GF or wife,kids go anywhere alone.


Heck you can't even go to church anymore
http://www.kfvs12.com/global/video/...chPageAdTag=News&activePane=info&rnd=94635756


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

RJ Pascone said:


> The Board of Examiners of Master Plumbers (NJ) has been issuing fines for advertising plumbing services without a valid license number on the advertisement. $2500.00. This is not the only violations they enforce. This includes circulars, yellow pages, church flyers, etc. They have been at doing this for about a year. They are not messing around.
> This is due largely in part to several local organizations (county chapter of the State League of Master Plumbers. A couple of guys attend the monthly board meetings. The board finally listened and got serious.


 Serious fines are the best way to stop hacks, you have to hit them in their wallets. Don't just slap them on the wrist.


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## Turd Burglar (Sep 26, 2009)

Everyone get out of the plumbing business while you can! Its a sinking ship, run!:shifty:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

RealLivePlumber said:


> The Board of Examiners of Master Plumbers (NJ) has been issuing fines for advertising plumbing services without a valid license number on the advertisement. $2500.00. This is not the only violations they enforce. This includes circulars, yellow pages, church flyers, etc. They have been at doing this for about a year. They are not messing around.
> This is due largely in part to several local organizations (county chapter of the State League of Master Plumbers. A couple of guys attend the monthly board meetings. The board finally listened and got serious.


Just because you fine them doesn't mean they will pay. But yes I understand if they have money and are advertising. I think they should TAKE there TRUCK and auction it off with all its tools:laughing:.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

They should hang the bastards by the neck until pronounced dead. :thumbsup: 

anyone seen my meds ?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> They should hang the bastards by the neck until pronounced dead. :thumbsup:
> 
> anyone seen my meds ?


 Could you look a 6 yr old lil girl in the eyes and tell her "we hung your daddy for installing a toilet"?:laughing:


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

Could you look at your wife and say sorry I hired an unlicensed electrician and the house burned down and our kids are gone? Same thing.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Plasticman said:


> Could you look at your wife and say sorry I hired an unlicensed electrician and the house burned down and our kids are gone? Same thing.


 I'm just sayin PepBoys sells brake pads and people can buy and install on their cars. How many of you have ever replaced your brakes on your van? Then you take that monster out on the road with me......brakes installed by a plumber. Now what laws should be put in place for things like that? Samething right? Should lawnmowers be banned? How bout a chainsaw? Hell if I where a landscaper I'd be raising hell that people are doing my trade,all these people cutting their own grass and pulling their own weeds. Damn garden hacks:laughing:


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## Turd Burglar (Sep 26, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I'm just sayin PepBoys sells brake pads and people can buy and install on their cars. How many of you have ever replaced your brakes on your van? Then you take that monster out on the road with me......brakes installed by a plumber. Now what laws should be put in place for things like that? Samething right? Should lawnmowers be banned? How bout a chainsaw? Hell if I where a landscaper I'd be raising hell that people are doing my trade,all these people cutting their own grass and pulling their own weeds. Damn garden hacks:laughing:


I am not saying I agree totally with that statement, but it is really funny. :jester:Garden hacks!:laughing:


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I'm just sayin PepBoys sells brake pads and people can buy and install on their cars. How many of you have ever replaced your brakes on your van? Then you take that monster out on the road with me......brakes installed by a plumber. Now what laws should be put in place for things like that? Samething right? Should lawnmowers be banned? How bout a chainsaw? Hell if I where a landscaper I'd be raising hell that people are doing my trade,all these people cutting their own grass and pulling their own weeds. Damn garden hacks:laughing:


I get your point, but there is a reason some crafts require licensing and others don't.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Airgap said:


> I get your point, but there is a reason some crafts require licensing and others don't.


 I get your point as well. A guy doing bad plumbing can start a disease outbreak and kill a whole lotta people. I think the main reason most plumbers get pissed about handymen is about money not about safety for the MOST part. Or just *****ing because they had to alot more work to straighten sombodys bad work out.  Hey but then we have city workers that do not have any kinda plumbing experience working on out city mains....no license no inspections...NO NOTHING. water service providers dont hafta be licensed.


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## M5Plumb (Oct 2, 2008)

Pro, 
it is interesting to hear this perspective...Sadly, it is complex for both the consumer and us, no matter how you look at it. 

Because there were no set policies established for the protections of the public and the medical or dental fields or in our own trade, the few who agreed to abide by their set of standards, licensing, legal representation, were able to practice. Those who were unqualified but destined to practice, were forced to comply or go to jail. 
The law has forced the consumer to seek other methods of getting things done...That said, look at how many folks will go down to Mexico for their dental work, eye care, meds etc...or will hire the "Handyman".

I think we are in a kind of a Catch 22...If we begin an "APA" Plumbers association, we in the trade will end up having to expense their costs and pass these on to the consumer, just the same as the medical profession has done. So now, the cost of plumbing goes even higher to afford our protections as a whole. 

As stated in a number of posts, many are going out of business 
1) because they are no longer able to submit competitive bids and priced themselves out of the market. 2) The unrelenting individual who think they can plumb, ends up creating a bigger problem for the consumer, then we get called in as licensed plumbers to fix this problem and we end up hearing, "The last plumber" yada yada yada...said this would take care of the issue. You guys are a bunch of Highway robbers! 

Ha! No, we, (licensed folks) are not. 

Now thousands of dollars in damage, insurance deductibles, not to mention the cost of the plumbing because it isn't covered by the insurance, we, licensed plumbers, get labeled as rip off artists because of those that aren't licensed. 

So let's say we implement our own "Grass Roots" group to represent our interests in order to provide the customer a better service without the repercussions of unlicensed folks interjecting inferior components, methods etc. 
Our "Grass Roots" group will need to be compensated for the just cause and the representation...Wait, isn't there representation for this trade?
No Wait, that's another post...
So now, this representation must lobby our law makers to devise and pass legislation for our protections, all the while this same representation is costing us plumbers more and more.

Man, talk about perpetual motion....I agree something needs to be done, perhaps a nationalized licensing and continuing ed training program, much like the health care community abides by. To perpetually qualify for and proceed into a next higher qualification leading up to an inspector certification. All this based on a similar training requirement for each step in progressive direction.

This would help to alleviate the licensed from the unlicensed and go toward improving the quality of the individuals abilities. 

Too Restrictive??? 

Not restrictive enough??? 

Your comments please??




Protech said:


> Our image can only carry us so far.
> 
> If unlicensed dentists or engineers started popping up everywhere and stealing the legit ones work from unsuspecting/uncaring customers, what do you think would happen? The AMA(American Medical Association) would lobby them right out of town.
> 
> The problem we have is there is no APA(American Plumbers Association).


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

It's nearly impossible to spend money on advertising when you're running low on funds, and the advertising you have isn't working, thinking it's going to trigger a upturn.


It's better than not doing anything at all but remember that lots of things are going in disrepair. I see this constantly. 


And I'll agree that if I had a fat wallet right now, I probably would not of started this thread. It's good I'm experiencing this downturn because as a businessman I need to know the thick and the thin. It's molding me into another business strategy that gains momentum and provides me with the attitude to "Do all you can" and don't stop. 

No way in hell I'm going to be doing this into my 50's the way my LA car chase for a body is going. That's okay; it's that driving spirit that's making me work even harder to figure out how to make a living without getting into that field. A former member here is doing just that and you can knock it all you want, ridicule one's situation...he's poised to strike and take control of something the world is turning to...the internet. It almost makes working in the field look retarded.

Times are changing and you either conform to that standard or be the end result of just that. Some plumbers have left the profession to put food on the table. The union in my area is staggering, too many on the bench, waiting 2 years to go to work? When you brag about having tons of work, better rethink about what surrounds you and how tough some have it right now. 

This up and down is the slow death for some in the near future, 12-36 months and this upturn isn't going to come soon enough. It's going to take years. Reality check for many and hopefully this strengthens the values of this profession.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

This kind of thing isnt new. Im sending one son out tomorrow and he's going to knock on doors and sell all day. If that doesnt start anything hes going to walk in and suggest they get something fixed for a big discount. If someone thinks we are down and out and tries to take advantage no deal. Im going to have a strong presence in the town south of me, period. 
Sometimes abit of desperation makes the salesman pull it out so to speak. Why not. Others have been against a wall and pulled thru. Jamie Carter in Indianapolis was one ...now Ben Franklin and they are doing over 9 million in a 1.5 mil population.
The point being, there is a course of action to survive.

This is just round one.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Why do folks spend endless hours debating whether or not a law is just or should be enforced.? It's the law, either enforce it or take it off the books. There are no exceptions, no special considerations because of tough times.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

All this doom and gloom is unsettling.
Hang in there, guys. When the recession is over the majority of you will prosper. Thank your lucky stars you're not farmers. They've got to deal with the same economic pressures we do, plus the curse of fickle weather. I love to grow things but I would never take up farming. Too risky!
I agree, our inage is in the toilet, literally. And, good intelligent hardworking help is almost non existant. I cring when I go on jobsites and see that 90% of the work force is hispanic, knowing that their presence is cost driven. 
What to do:
Being back shop in high schools to show kids there is an option to college.
A little PR stating the wage and benefit package of a fully employed union plumber would open the eyes of a lot of those mammas who don't want their babies to grow up to be plumbers. 
There is a place for highly paid tradespeople in the USA. Some people will still pay top dollar to insure they get it done right the first time. 
How do I know:
I'm a union affiliated contractor whose labor cost is close to $100/hour and my gross sales this year will be my biggest ever.
And, I specialize in new residential construction. How do I do it, especially in these times. By insisting on quality fom my employees. By making sure it's right and moving mountains for my customers if they preceive it to be less than so. 
_If you build it, they will come._
But, you have to be consistant. We've tried to be so for 52 years. And, we don't plan on changing, come what may.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> A former member here is doing just that and you can knock it all you want, ridicule one's situation...he's poised to strike and take control of something the world is turning to...the internet. It almost makes working in the field look retarded.


Thanks. You made me laugh. I needed that.



DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Times are changing and you either conform to that standard or be the end result of just that. Some plumbers have left the profession to put food on the table. The union in my area is staggering, too many on the bench, waiting 2 years to go to work? When you brag about having tons of work, better rethink about what surrounds you and how tough some have it right now.


So, what are the people experiencing success now to do? Yes people are failing around me. They were the same people living beyond their means when times were fat. I saved for a rainy day(last winter was my rainy day).I know pride is not necessarily a good trait but, I am proud to be successful when others are failing. 

Now for the union, If you sit back and wait 2 years to go to work, you are lazy. Get off your ass and get to work. There are jobs out there. Maybe not the job you want. But they are there.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Why do folks spend endless hours debating whether or not a law is just or should be enforced.? It's the law, either enforce it or take it off the books. There are no exceptions, no special considerations because of tough times.


 If your waiting on a the GOVERMENT to get handymen off the streets your gonna be waiting for along time. Do you have any idea of how many laws are on the books? Theres noway they can enforce them all and if they did we would all be in jail. Theres no room for a guy in jail installing a toilet without a lic. Call down to the jail and ask them if you dont believe me.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I agree with Roast Duck on the point that alot of things are not being repaired right now......they cant put it off forever. Theres plenty of money left in this town. Mostly its the guys who lived beyond their reasonable means who are hurting the worst or guys with large companies. People for a while there was spending money like it was free....I knew that wouldn't last.


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## mselkee (Aug 13, 2009)

A big second on people putting off repairs. 

We spent the summer advertising a lot (we have never had to in the past) and got few calls. Come the first cold snap (we also service boilers), and the phone wouldn't stop ringing. Almost every customer said the same thing......."I wanted to call earlier but didn't want to spend the money until I had to." 

The hidden silver lining is, sooner or later there will be a large amount of backed up repairs to be done if you can hang in there.

I've been in business in this location for 16 years and have never seen business so slow. Our customers are as scared as we are.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

A lot of the houses I go to have a lot of things that need repaired. But this is the norm. Even when times were better these people did not repair anything, because the times weren't better for them.

But more and more people are joining their ranks. They have one thing fixed right now and leave the rest for later.

September was my biggest month last year. This year it was just average, or below. I'm still very slow - I mean, maybe only a couple of jobs per week. And it isn't just me - supply houses are all whinging the same whine. All sorts of businesses are going under, including businesses that have been there for many years and just can't make it any longer. Best business to be in now seems to be collections. They're very busy and new shops are popping up everywhere, along with the payday or auto title loans.

And recovery usually takes at least five years after the crash, assuming there's going to be a recovery. If the money continues to go to the rich bankers and nothing is done for the working sector, it's going to get worse and not better.

In the Great Depression, plumbers survived because people always needed plumbing and had things to trade, and because there were no Sharkbites or Ferncos. (Heck, they didn't even have silicone.) 

That's my gloom and doom rant of the day.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

*Recession fills pawn shop shelves*






*COVINGTON* - The back room of the Cash in a Flash pawn shop on Madison Avenue is stocked to the ceiling.



On sturdy wooden shelf units, divided by a center aisle like a church, hundreds of people's valuables - guitars, electronics, tools, jewelry - are held as collateral for short-term loans typically no more than $60 or $80. Flat-screen televisions rest on the floor, their screens faced away from foot traffic.
Shelf No. 12 is jammed with tools: air compressors, drills, whole tool boxes.
"People's livelihoods," said manager Doug Moore. "It's kind of sad."
The recession, though not necessarily a boon to the pawn business, has made pawn shops busier.
The number of phone calls from people in search of a quick loan has risen since the economy turned south, say both Moore and Raph Tincher, manager of Ted's Pawn in Norwood.
It's possessions they have, and cash they lack.
"People are needing the money but can't eat their stuff," Moore said.
Heck, he said, when gas was $4-plus a gallon, people would come in to pawn a piece of jewelry, antique or DVD player to get them through the week.
The clientele has changed, too, in the past 18 months, or at least expanded to include more middle-class people "with suburban addresses," said Tincher. No customers would discuss why they were doing business in a pawn shop.
*'People are hurting'*

A pawn is another term for a collateral loan. There's no need for a credit check or bank account. All the customer needs is a government-issued ID. There are no legal ramifications if the loan is not repaid. The customer just surrenders the item put up as collateral.
Loans are based on the value of the item.
Contrary to the stereotype, most pawns are reclaimed by paying off the loan. But the sagging economy has changed the number at Cash in a Flash.
"Before the recession, we would have 75 percent of our loans redeemed every year, year after year," Moore said. "Now we're down to 65 percent. People are hurting for money."
On average, nationally, 80 percent of loans at pawn shops are repaid and the merchandise reclaimed, according to the National Pawnbrokers Association.
The front two windows of Cash in a Flash reveal what people are hawking and who's especially hurting: musicians and *contractors*.
One display window is filled with instruments - acoustic and electric guitars hanging in neat rows, cymbals and whole drum sets, keyboard, amplifiers. There's even a shiny, antique accordion in its case.
In the other window, power drills, air compressors and tool boxes are stacked neatly on the floor and shelves.
Jewelry, primarily engagement rings from marriages that end in divorce, is a steady item for sale - regardless of economic conditions.
DVDs are on sale at Cash in a Flash for $2.99. (It no longer accepts music CDs as collateral.) So are mementoes. There's a framed, autographed photo of Pete Rose banging out his record 4,192nd base hit in 1985. There's a framed autographed photo hanging from the wall of the Great Eight position players of the Big Red Machine's back-to-back World Series teams in 1975 and '76. There's an autographed Tony Perez photograph. "To Jim, best wishes, Tony Perez," it reads.
"Sometimes it does get emotional when people bring things in for a loan," Moore said. "You know the item has a lot of sentimental value, and there's a real sense they won't be back to redeem it."
The industry is heavily regulated, and its national association fights the image that pawn shops are little more than places where crooks fence stolen goods. Less than one half of one percent of all pawned merchandise is identified as stolen, according to the National Pawnbrokers Association. Information, including the client's identification and serial number of merchandise, are logged and reported daily to local police.
States regulate pawn shops.
In Kentucky, Cash in a Flash charges 20 percent interest but no storage fee. A loan of $100 for a pawned item will cost the borrower $120 from 1-29 days. Kentucky allows 60 days before a loan is defaulted and the item becomes property of the pawn shop.
In Ohio, borrowers have 90 days to redeem their possessions. The interest rate at Ted's Pawn is 5 percent, Tincher said, plus a monthly $4 storage fee. A $100 loan would cost a client $109 a month.
"Our inventory is up," Tincher said. "We're seeing a lot of cash going out the door. People are telling us they need the money to make ends meet and make sure they can pay the mortgage, rent or car note."



http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091010/NEWS01/910110359


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

A friend of mine has a pawn shop 2 doors down from mine. And it is very sad. People are pawning anything they can come up with. And there are not many buying much....


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## M5Plumb (Oct 2, 2008)

Make sure you have all your tools and equipment locked up well...



slickrick said:


> A friend of mine has a pawn shop 2 doors down from mine. And it is very sad. _*People are pawning anything they can come up *__*with*_ . And there are not many buying much....


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## mselkee (Aug 13, 2009)

Some random thoughts.

Another source of competition is our fellow laid off plumbers. I have seen quite a few guys I know that are laid off suddenly putting tool boxes on their trucks. They use the term "plumbing maintenance" here to skirt the law. What's not to like when the property management company has the guy that used to do their plumbing knock on the door and offer essentially the same service for $20 per hour verses $85-$100? 

I have tried to cater to the market place that requires more technical services. Stuff that needs expensive equipment that hacks can't afford or figure out. In the last three years we have diversified into refrigeration, controls, more HVAC, and even bought excavation equipment. It has been as simple as getting educated and waiting for a regular customer to ask if I know a good AC guy or control guy...........why as a matter of fact I do.

Service contracts also will help fight off the hacks. I have done a few commercial ones and amazed by the loyalty they generate. The same customer who wants a bid for work not covered just gives to you when their under a service contract. 

Money left on the table. I am constantly on the crew about detecting and selling extra *needed* work. Most guys in the field (myself included) get rushed or focus on the next service call. I try to call the tech @ each service call and ask questions about things that could be done. For example I had a call for an older water heater that went out last year. My tech re lit it, cycled it and walked away..........he had a lot of calls that day. I reviewed the call and told him he should have replaced the thermocouple-cheap insurance plus a billable item. Sure enough, he's back a week later replacing the thermocouple. Our new policy is to replace the TC on any outage now.

I will also rent equipment out for non plumbing jobs. Had a propane CO call to ask if we could unload a semi full of #20 tanks with our Bobcat. Got $500.00 for two hours work plus a contract to do it once every two months..............hey it's income. I wouldn't have even returned their phone call last year.

The additional control and AC work this year has kept us afloat....barely.

Rambling off


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

This thread is barely 96 hours old, and nearly 1300 views.

Roughly 325 views a day. 

Compared to other threads on this site, this one has the attetion of many.


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