# Possible slab leak



## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Alright slab leaks aren't my forte. Concrete slab home. when the dishwasher is draining and for about 15 minutes after it's done, the floor infront of the sink feel noticeably warmer then the surrounding area. No signs at all of any broken pipes...no smell, water, camera inspection looked fine. It's just the floor is warm. Possible broke pipe?

it is drain line I would suspect as it only happens when the dishwasher drains, not as it's being used or any other time. The floor is laminate wood and seems perfectly fine to me, no signs of buckling.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

Is it only when the dish washer is used ?
The D/W should be draining to the disposer, so you should be able to duplicate the problem by running hot water in the sink for the same amount on time.


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## rusak (Sep 20, 2008)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Is it only when the dish washer is used ?
> The D/W should be draining to the disposer, so you should be able to duplicate the problem by running hot water in the sink for the same amount on time.


Well it can be the Johnson tee set up.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Turn every fixture off in the home. Make sure toilets are not running, (you might want to shut the angle stops off), Then check to see if water meter is running. If it is, then somewhere there is a leak. Then isolate the hot piping by turning the water heater off. If meter stops, then leak is on a hot line.

I have found slab leaks by turning the thermostats up really high on an elec. W/H then walking around in the house to locate a warm spot on the floor. That will be the area the pipe is leaking. If it's a tile floor, some times you can drill between the tiles through the grout joint; if your drill bit comes back wet, you found the leaky area.


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## PlumberJ90 (Oct 10, 2012)

Tommy plumber said:


> Turn every fixture off in the home. Make sure toilets are not running, (you might want to shut the angle stops off), Then check to see if water meter is running. If it is, then somewhere there is a leak. Then isolate the hot piping by turning the water heater off. If meter stops, then leak is on a hot line.
> 
> I have found slab leaks by turning the thermostats up really high on an elec. W/H then walking around in the house to locate a warm spot on the floor. That will be the area the pipe is leaking. If it's a tile floor, some times you can drill between the tiles through the grout joint; if your drill bit comes back wet, you found the leaky area.


I think he's asking about a leak in the drainage. 

However good tip on the slab leak found with water heater.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

PlumberJ90 said:


> I think he's asking about a leak in the drainage.
> 
> However good tip on the slab leak found with water heater.


 






Maybe I missed something. But he said camera inspection was fine. So I assumed he inspected the drain....(shrugs shoulders)


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

Sound like the dish washers is leaking under the tiles to me.


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## PlumberJ90 (Oct 10, 2012)

Tommy plumber said:


> Maybe I missed something. But he said camera inspection was fine. So I assumed he inspected the drain....(shrugs shoulders)


Fair point. Didn't think of it that way.


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## dannyho1 (Oct 18, 2012)

Pull the toilet closest to the kitchen. Run the dishwasher and listen in the flange for drainage or possible clog that may be forcing water thru a small (not noticable by camera) leak in the d/w drain system. That would be my first step.


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

dannyho1 said:


> Pull the toilet closest to the kitchen. Run the dishwasher and listen in the flange for drainage or possible clog that may be forcing water thru a small (not noticable by camera) leak in the d/w drain system. That would be my first step.


1) pls post an intro in the introduction section.

2) your first step is pull a toilet....to listen for drainage? Really?


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

I have a LG DWasher that blows hot air/steam out the lower left corner of the door. It is not a noticable opening, but it does warm the floor and leave condensation on the floor. Very noticable temp on the floor. Look for that before you go pulling crap apart.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Sorry, it is drain line I would suspect as it only happens when the dishwasher drains, not as it's being used or any other time. The floor is laminate wood and seems perfectly fine to me, no signs of buckling. 

I'll copy and paste the above info in the original post to reduce confusion, thanks


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## dannyho1 (Oct 18, 2012)

Fullmetal Frank said:


> 1) pls post an intro in the introduction section.
> 
> 2) your first step is pull a toilet....to listen for drainage? Really?


Is it hard to imagine. If you hear clear drainage it isnt water pushing thru the 2". If you cant hear it, then there is a blockage before the tie in to the main.
Sorry about not posting an intro,_ didn't know about it._


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

dannyho1 said:


> Pull the toilet closest to the kitchen. Run the dishwasher and listen in the flange for drainage or possible clog that may be forcing water thru a small (not noticable by camera) leak in the d/w drain system. That would be my first step.


The same could be accomplished by just taking the trap off the lavy and listening for drainage. But I don't think it would help much with diagnosing the problem. 

The first thing I would do would be remove the panels off the bottom of the dw and see if water is running up under the tiles. I've seen it happen.


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

dannyho1 said:


> Is it hard to imagine. If you hear clear drainage it isnt water pushing thru the 2". If you cant hear it, then there is a blockage before the tie in to the main.
> Sorry about not posting an intro,_ didn't know about it._


What's hard to imagine is why adding a free pull and reset to the job, is acceptable to anybody. I know I wouldn't allow it and I surly wouldn't pay for it
If I called you to learn why the floor in front of my dishwasher is warm after use, and the first thing you did was ask to pull the toilet. I am not busting your chops I just don't understand the logic. 

As far as the intro thing, it's not a _problem_, it's just expected from new recruits.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

PlumberJ90 said:


> I think he's asking about a leak in the drainage.
> 
> However good tip on the slab leak found with water heater.


It could be busted on the hub of the drain, and you will never see it with camera.

You need to run a test ball up the sewer line and do a Isolation test to determine if there is a slab leak

But first action is to put a test ball in the clean out and determine if a slab leak is present. If so then do the Isolation test.........


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## coast to coast (Feb 17, 2012)

How old is the home ? Is it an older home with new owners ? Crazy but and I am grabbing at straws here with limited info to work of but if u haw laminate floor and constant moisture I'd think the flooring would show signs of water damage . So remember I'm just shooting in the dark but when they did the underground the drain in question is right at the surface either touch the flooring or just an 1/8" below it .


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Possible partial blockage and an unglued fitting. Run the line see if it persists. Filling both sides of the sink with HOT water and draining it, will mimic it.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Tommy plumber said:


> Turn every fixture off in the home. Make sure toilets are not running, (you might want to shut the angle stops off), Then check to see if water meter is running. If it is, then somewhere there is a leak. Then isolate the hot piping by turning the water heater off. If meter stops, then leak is on a hot line.
> 
> I have found slab leaks by turning the thermostats up really high on an elec. W/H then walking around in the house to locate a warm spot on the floor. That will be the area the pipe is leaking. If it's a tile floor, some times you can drill between the tiles through the grout joint; if your drill bit comes back wet, you found the leaky area.


Pressure gauge on a hose bib and killing the feed at the meter or yard box is more definitive than eye-balling the meter IMO.


But a domestic water leak would be constant flow and the floor would always be warm in that case, which it isn't.

The kitchen sink and dishwasher share a common drain...so if the warm floor is not achieved by filling and draining the kitchen sink then the problem is with the DW itself.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

I would try and get a camera in the line (either from the roof vent or by fabing up some sort of tee under the sink) and run water. I don't know if I'd run the d/w with my camera in the line due to the heat and steam that might fog the lens but cold water should show a potential leak just as easily as hot. 

Is this a new development or has the floor always been warm when the d/w is running? I'm assuming the d/w is fed from an angle stop under the k/s, yes? It makes no sense that it'd be a pressurized leak if it wasn't hot all the time so I think you're correct to look at the drainage system. 








Paul


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

coast to coast said:


> How old is the home ? Is it an older home with new owners ? Crazy but and I am grabbing at straws here with limited info to work of but if u haw laminate floor and constant moisture I'd think the flooring would show signs of water damage . So remember I'm just shooting in the dark but when they did the underground the drain in question is right at the surface either touch the flooring or just an 1/8" below it .


I agree. The waste line is just below concrete and when DW drains the flow of waste is long and hot enough to warm the slab in that area.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

The house was built in the 70's. I jetted the line and inspected it and it looks really good. I never did a locate on it. I never tried to use the sink to simulate the problem.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

New dishwasher?


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

I say No way it's a drain leak under a slab. Those pipes are under dirt under the conrete. Go back and do a complete inspection on the DW, panel off, run it, figure it out, and please let us know what it was.
Don't keep us in the dark like every other mystery situation on here.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

gear junkie said:


> The house was built in the 70's. I jetted the line and inspected it and it looks really good. I never did a locate on it. I never tried to use the sink to simulate the problem.


How bout putting a test ball outside at the 2 way cleanouts and pulling the toilet and testing the drain system to the floor level. just an idea


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

justme said:


> How bout putting a test ball outside at the 2 way cleanouts and pulling the toilet and testing the drain system to the floor level. just an idea


Again why pull the toilet for that test, just fill to the shower or tub drain lvl, no pull and reset nessicary


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Fullmetal Frank said:


> Again why pull the toilet for that test, just fill to the shower or tub drain lvl, no pull and reset nessicary


I don't know frank maybe because the level of the tub is above the floor level:whistling2: also most showers are above the floor level:whistling2: . It just so happens that most floor flanges are guess what level with the floor . Maybe your insistence on not wanting to pull the toilet so you can get a good clear view on how far the water drops is more of an issue with you and not others . There's a 100 ways to do things and 99 of them get it done.


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

justme said:


> I don't know frank maybe because the level of the tub is above the floor level:whistling2: also most showers are above the floor level:whistling2: . It just so happens that most floor flanges are guess what level with the floor . Maybe your insistence on not wanting to pull the toilet so you can get a good clear view on how far the water drops is more of an issue with you and not others . There's a 100 ways to do things and 99 of them get it done.


And do your test will not work if the water lvl is slightly above floor lvl? yes it does.:thumbup: nothing about your test needs to have toilet pulled, you would not get a good clear veiw of anything with the toilet up. The reliavance of the floor flange is zero. :laughing:

There are lots of ways to get something done, but you are mistaken if you think 99% "get it done".

This is a issue with me for sure, I can't stand when someone, in order to diagnose a problem, (potentially) creates a new problem,and calls it apart of the process, when more logical and reasonable avenues are still on the table.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Fullmetal Frank said:


> And do your test will not work if the water lvl is slightly above floor lvl? yes it does.:thumbup: nothing about your test needs to have toilet pulled, you would not get a good clear veiw of anything with the toilet up. The reliavance of the floor flange is zero. :laughing:
> 
> There are lots of ways to get something done, but you are mistaken if you think 99% "get it done".
> 
> This is a issue with me for sure, I can't stand when someone, in order to diagnose a problem, (potentially) creates a new problem,and calls it apart of the process, when more logical and reasonable avenues are still on the table.


You mean you can't measure down from the toilet flange if the water drops say 6 inches and get an idea of what level the leak is at?. You mean you can't chase the water level down with a camera to see how far it leaks down. LOL What other problems would you cause by pulling a toilet , you having problems putting the toilets back Frank?


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

justme said:


> You mean you can't measure down from the toilet flange if the water drops say 6 inches and get an idea of what level the leak is at?. You mean you can't chase the water level down with a camera to see how far it leaks down. LOL What other problems would you cause by pulling a toilet , you having problems putting the toilets back Frank?


If it is a leak I already know its under the slab, and near the kitchen sink. Any information you could gain this way would be useless IMO. 

Lol ok what other problems lets see:

the stop could break
The flange could break
You might chip the toilet
You might break a tile
You could cause the tank to leak
The supply line might break after you leave.
Ect ect ect.

Bottom line to be professional when resetting the toilet you should replace everything, and guess what, charging the customer for that is messed up. (I guess a case could be made if you managed to glean problem solving intel from it but it's doubtful)


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

gitnerdun said:


> I say No way it's a drain leak under a slab. Those pipes are under dirt under the conrete. Go back and do a complete inspection on the DW,* panel off*, run it, figure it out, and please let us know what it was.
> Don't keep us in the dark like every other mystery situation on here.


GITNERDUN with the winning answer.

Pull of the acces panel of the dishwasher and do a fill and drain. I 'ven seen leaking dishwashers give similiar symptoms as slab leaks.

If no dice then proceed with leak detection procedure.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

I almost always agree with you, justme, but Frank's right on this one. 

Pulling the toilet when there is a shower is just adding un-billable tasks to the job.

Anything that can be accomplished by pulling the water closet can be accomplished at the shower drain. 

If you pull the closet, you own it. You will need to replace the fill valve, flapper, and likely the supply tube or flex. You very well may have to repair the closet flange or replace the stop as well. Anytime you pull and reset china you run the risk of chipping or breaking it (or being accused of causing a crack that was already there before you started ) or pulling up flooring if someone got carried away with the dap.

It was the standard operating procedure to pull water closets for hydrostatic tests when I was learning the trade thirty years ago, but it's one of those old school practices that has no rationale behind it when you think it through.

If you put an extension on the C.O. outside when you fill the system, you don't even need a shower drain for a top of slab test. I quit pulling water closets for hydrostatic tests over ten years ago when my then boss asked me to explain why I was doing it and didn't settle for "that's how it's done" as an answer


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I though the whole idea was to get your foot in the door and find as many billable task as possible


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

johnlewismcleod said:


> If you put an extension on the C.O. outside when you fill the system, you don't even need a shower drain for a top of slab test. I quit pulling water closets for hydrostatic tests over ten years ago when my then boss asked me to explain why I was doing it and didn't settle for "that's how it's done" as an answer


I used to do Hyrdorstatic test all day long on residential houses. Sometimes 7 per day.

I never pulled a toilet, just use the pre existing clean out and bring them up to slab level if they are short.

Coming inside and pulling a toilet is leading to problems


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> I though the whole idea was to get your foot in the door and find as many billable task as possible


If you could bill for it.


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

All this for a hot floor?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

gitnerdun said:


> All this for a hot floor?


I think the chances of this being the drain issue are so remote it is not even worth worth discussing.

Leave the hot water running in the K/S and see if the floor gets warm. Hasn't anyone ever been on a slab where a hot water line was brought too shallow? 

It seems everyone is making this harder than it has to be.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> I think the chances of this being the drain issue are so remote it is not even worth worth discussing.
> 
> Leave the hot water running in the K/S and see if the floor gets warm. Hasn't anyone ever been on a slab where a hot water line was brought too shallow?
> 
> It seems everyone is making this harder than it has to be.


Y offer such a simple solution

You are taking the fun out of this forum :jester:


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

TallCoolOne said:


> Y offer such a simple solution
> 
> You are taking the fun out of this forum :jester:


John "Kill-joy" Biz :yes::laughing:


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

johnlewismcleod said:


> I almost always agree with you, justme, but Frank's right on this one.
> 
> Pulling the toilet when there is a shower is just adding un-billable tasks to the job.
> 
> ...


 its tuff to break the habits good or bad what I was taught 15 years ago when I was doing slab leak testing for C&C.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

Gear junkie posted in another forum that water has been repiped overhead in attic a few years ago so the problem can
only be the drainage


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

If a hydrostatic test shows the water system is good, do a smoke test. Drill a hole through the slab in the hot area. In a wood floor patch with wood putty and stain, tile just patched the grout.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

I'll call monday but I truthfully don't think it's worth pursuing drilling holes or pulling dishwashers.


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

Put a test ball in a out side clean out, pull a toilet closest to clean out now, fill the sewer line with water, then check to see if the water drops. if it does its a sewer leak. you might be able to smoke it and see if you see smoke. that will eliminate if its a drain leak.


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

revenge said:


> Put a test ball in a out side clean out, pull a toilet closest to clean out now, fill the sewer line with water, then check to see if the water drops. if it does its a sewer leak. you might be able to smoke it and see if you see smoke. that will eliminate if its a drain leak.


Put the testball in the down stream, and fill the sewer line to the top of the cleanout, now you don't need to pull a toilet.:laughing:


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## Flynbyu (Aug 31, 2012)

Uh sorry for no intro yet but I have to say that most are taking this a bit far lol. I mean common he said he didn't run the hot through the sink to see if you get the same result. That seems pretty freakin basic to me. If there is a drain leak it will have the same result as draining the dw. Oh wait. Let's yank the damn toilet before we try the sink drain. Yay.


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## Flynbyu (Aug 31, 2012)

I do have a funny leak story though. Another plumbing company here that has since for some unknown reason gone out of business was called for a running water sound inside the house under the slab. Well sure enough you could hear water running through the pipes under the slab. A guy that had been with the company for years starts feeling the floor and swears he finds a warm spot. Got it now its a hot water leak. Get the jackhammer. They start breaking the floor in the living room and when they find the water lines guess what? Dry as a bone but you could hear water running through the cold side. So this same guy uses the probing rod to listen across the floor for the loudest spot and has them breaking the floor where he says. They damn near cut the slab in half and found no leak. My buddy goes around back to take a leak and can hear water running. Looks in the bushes and finds a hose bib dripping. He cuts it off and goes back inside and guess what? They can't hear the water anymore. I don't k ow how the billing went but that was some of the funniest ****e I have ever heard.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Flynbyu said:


> Uh sorry for no intro yet but I have to say that most are taking this a bit far lol. I mean common he said he didn't run the hot through the sink to see if you get the same result. That seems pretty freakin basic to me. If there is a drain leak it will have the same result as draining the dw. Oh wait. Let's yank the damn toilet before we try the sink drain. Yay.


Intro, plz...only confirmed members are allowed to insult each other


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Flynbyu said:


> Uh sorry for no intro yet but I have to say that most are taking this a bit far lol. I mean common he said he didn't run the hot through the sink to see if you get the same result. That seems pretty freakin basic to me. If there is a drain leak it will have the same result as draining the dw. Oh wait. Let's yank the damn toilet before we try the sink drain. Yay.


You talk too much. Why not post an intro and then give him an answer? What would you do mr. Basic?


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## Flynbyu (Aug 31, 2012)

I did the intro. Sorry about that.


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## Flynbyu (Aug 31, 2012)

And I wouldve done just what I said. At least ran the hot through the sink drain to see if its the same result. Before going further.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Flynbyu said:


> And I wouldve done just what I said. At least ran the hot through the sink drain to see if its the same result. Before going further.


Several plumbers have suggested that, Fly. The thing to remember is that all of us have different areas of expertise. We help each other when we are dealing with something new.

It's wisest not to bust anyone's chops too hard...they may be the very person who'll have the answer you need when it's your turn to ask for some help


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## Flynbyu (Aug 31, 2012)

johnlewismcleod said:


> Several plumbers have suggested that, Fly. The thing to remember is that all of us have different areas of expertise. We help each other when we are dealing with something new.
> 
> It's wisest not to bust anyone's chops too hard...they may be the very person who'll have the answer you need when your turn to ask for some help


I wasn't trying to bust anyones chops. I apologize if it came off that way. I did read all the posts in the thread and just felt there wasn't enough emphasis put on checking the sink drain. I saw it mentioned a couple times but when he said he hadn't tried that I thought maybe that needed to be done. 

I hate slab leaks and know they can be a pain to properly diagnose. We just went through one about a month ago at a nursing home.


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