# What's the BEST PEX to use



## Miguel

Ha! I got your attention! The copperholics are prolly the first in, followed by the Rehau and Wirsbo folks. 
This is more an article of interest than a simple post.

First off, I'm a recovering copperholic. I like copper. I like copper joinery. It's tried, it's true, and a proper craftsmans work will be around for the archeologists to uncover. And I learned from a real master. Geo was an artist with any torch that'd keep a flame hotter than 500 deg. No lie, I watched him couple a 3/4" type L joint with a freakin' Bic lighter once! Butane doesn't burn that hot? You're right, but I watched him take filings from a magnesium anode rod along with a burnt out piece of running rope and some damp newspaper, set it all up, <avert yer eyes> and *FLASH*! Burned for a few seconds followed by some frantic action on his part (I was green as grass and had no idea what he was doing...) and voila! A solder joint that held till we could get back and make a proper repair. This all took place at a research site way back in the boonies.

Anyway, long story short, George was a master of mettalurgy as it applied to the noble profession of plumbing. Geo had been around the block a few times and i used to have fun kidding him about how well the Roman's learned from him. But he was very pragmatic. He was one of the few from the old school that would accept (sometimes grudgingly) the newer ways of doing things. When PB came along he was a bit of a curmudgeon. He'd say things like, "yeah it's okay but I dunno... the europeans are using this other stuff that looks promising." He was talking about PEX.

Fast forward 20 years from that time (er, he's been dead 20 yrs... mebbe 22 years or so) and here we are in North America using PEX. Now, it seems, PEX is king. It's the wave of the future! But what IS PEX? Cross-linked poly from what most of us know. So what?

So now we are la plomberie, "those that seal with lead". We are those that need to know how to supply water safely to the masses, and to safely carry it away for treatment/disposal. Is water distribution done strictly with copper pipes and fittings? Is there any other material that will stand the test of time. PVC and CPVC have come to light over the years. Although the hardware store variety of CPVC is gradually disappearing from common use (does not stand up well) PVC has tried hard to do the job. But these materials have too many detriments. Too brittle; too much of a thermal expansion coefficient to work well in the real world; contains lead (kind of an irony there); etc etc.

So PEX was introduced. Much earlier in Europe than on the North American continent... but we on this continent don't cotton to change much. Especially when it flies in the face of what worked well for our grandfathers.

Now you'd be hard pressed to find a plumber that hasn't heard of PEX. It may even be easy to locate a group of plumbers that dislike PEX. Simply post a "PEX rules and Copper Sucks" on a forum like this and you'll get an earful! So is PEX the best? I don't think so. Is PEX better than copper? I don't think so. Is PEX as good as copper? Um... I'd have to say, "It depends".

Whether you like it or not, PEX is working itself into the trade to the point that "those that seal with lead" have to consider more than just basic non-ferrous mettalurgy but also a good knowledge of "plastilurgy". What is plastic? Plastic is many different things and now we are faced with more than just the different alloys of solder available to the trade. Is it PEX "a" or PEX "b" or even PEX "c"??

Why is the difference between PEX "a" and PEX "b" so important? If PEX "b" is a lesser product than PEX "a" then isn't PEX "c" just crap??? The answer may surprise you. And if it does then you have much to learn about "plastillurgy".

Although PEX "b" is vastly inferior to PEX "a" (you'll notice that certified PEX pipe will ALWAYS specify that the product is indeed PEX "a" whereas PEX "b" will only mark it's pressure/temperature ratings and not specify which grade it acually is) PEX "c" is probably unaffordable to most plumbers. It is the best and is only made (to my knowledge) at one place on the planet. PEX "b" is crap and is hardware store quality at best. PEX "a" is the best available to the common market. You can be assured that if it is indeed PEX "a" that they will proudly display that fact. And you can tell by working it in your hands that there is a difference!

Uponor's (Wirsbo) pipe is PEX "a" as is the Heatlink Group's pipe (the best I've seen so far) . Rehau may have a plant that produces PEX "a" however I've never seen the product (if it exists) so I remain skeptical. Bow and Ipex have so far failed to provide me with the ideal product. Canplas and Vanguard have also failed to show me the goods, so to speak. Watts and others I believe rely on others to provide their pipe so, the same goes there. (Acutually I believe there are very few plants that actually produce PEX pipe.)

So, that being said, is PEX just a bad word that will pass soon. I don't think so. Even the inferior types have made inroads into our trade that are irrieversible. The retail outlets will always provide an avenue for Joe Homeowner to gain access to our product. This is nothing new. What we can offer is knowledge and ability. In this case our ability is in product knowledge. Know what you are dealing with and when to bother dealing with it. Choose your method of joinery but more than that, be sure of the product you are installing and be sure that it will (or will not) stand up to the UV exposure, the pressure carrying capacity, and the elasticity that you say (or hope) it will.

PEX pipe and it's miriad of fittings (expansion or crimp, pinch clamp or compression) are here for the long haul. How will your product of choice stand up?


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## ILPlumber

Please -


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## user823

Viega Pureflow Pex is made in their own plant in Wichita KS.:thumbsup:
It's my pex of choice.
Pex A, B, only shows how the pex is made. It is not a quality factor even though some think so.

http://www.viega.net/4693.htm

That's all, not saying another word. Goodnight!


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## Ron

The question is what is the best pex to use? This is about pex, those that what to jump in here and start talking about copper, don't, want to talk about pex, here it is, I best not see this thread go off topic.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Ron The Plumber said:


> The question is what is the best pex to use? This is about pex, those that what to jump in here and start talking about copper, don't, want to talk about pex, here it is, I best not see this thread go off topic.


 

That's easy:


Miguel?


Use the PEX that does not have the words CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS GOOGLE YAHOO BING ASK JEEVES ASK.COM MSN SEARCH URL TRACKBACK IE CODEC 

and provides ease of install that accommodates your work ability to know that red goes to red, blue goes to blue, and you get paid when the water turns on and no leakie. 

Make sure you do not use the PEX piping that hasn't been used by plumbers and later found out to be DEFECTIVE. This will ensure that your piping choice will be a good one. 

Remember, 

You must not expose it to harmful UV rays, must not have dirty hands when installing it, NO VERMIN INFESTATIONS as they will eat holes in PEX. 

NO GLUES, NO CAULKS ARE USED around this piping with PETROLEUM DISTILLATES. 

IF YOU HAVE BAD WATER, REMEMBER THAT PEX BRASS FITTINGS CAN FAIL. FAIL due to dezincification. 

I hope this helps. Use the proper tools and make sure the tools are properly calibrated. Otherwise under/overcrimping can cause RUPTURES or PIPE BURSTS in the walls at connectors.


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## Ron

Thank Dunbar,

Your opinions are noted, we shill leave it at that, there should be no arguments over what you posted, and your opinion is just that, no more no less. Those that feel the statements posted are all wrong, that is fine leave it at that.

I do think repeating search engines over and over was not needed, I do hope you will at least be so kind to edit your post so it does not look like your pushing an issue on any members that so reads it.


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## nhmaster3015

I do think it is important to do some research before committing to anyone product. There is a definite difference in quality between the brands and that has a direct relationship to the manufacturing process and to some extent the joining method. Every manufacturer will proudly tell you that their product is the best and indeed PEX is being manufactured and or re-labled from plants all over the world. Uponor has claimed that their pex is superior because the cross linking process takes place in the mix tank, thereby insuring that the product is 100% molecularly linked, whereas those products that rely on electrification at the extruder to perform the cross link process can at times leave areas that are improperly linked.


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## Ron

I like to use rehua pex, no specific reason, just been using it for years now and have had zero problems with it, hope that tells you something.

It seems more flexible the the other brands, maybe that is way I use it.

Is it the best, I don't know, it does the job it was intended to do.


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## Miguel

Thanks ppl.
One of the reasons I posted that (_ somewhat lengthy_) bit was simply out of boredom, but mainly I wanted to see what type, if any, discussion it might inspire.
I'm just saying what I know and I expect to hear what you know. Discussions on topics like this go on all the time at supply house counters and coffee shops all the time but forums like this give the unique advantage of getting information, opinions and ideas from all over the place.

Thanks folks.


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## nhmaster3015

We're still doing a body count from the last time this subject was broached. :laughing:

We finally signed the PEX V Copper armistice of 2009 with all parties agreeing that the opposing parties are just plain nutz and therefore will never agree to anything that either party says and will continue to install whatever product they damn well want and the rest of you can all take a flying leap. As part of the treaty however, bloody discussion of the subject is still possible on the chat providing none of the parties is within 5 states of each other. :laughing: At no time do any of the participants "feelings" matter.


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## Miguel

lol! Yeh, I was a bit concerned that it might get outta hand if the fundamentalists got in the ring. But meh, I've poured gas on a fire before. 

So far I've already heard some interesting tidbits that've piqued my interest. Like "Viega". Never heard of it before, or at least not until I checked the link. Here it's marketed as Vangard and I recall using the Manabloc in the past. Gotta be the same stuff. I wasn't crazy about the homerun system in the couple of houses I tried it in but thought it was ideally suited to apartment buildings and the like. I did a seniors complex (not a nursing home, but aprtments for seniors) and found it worked really well.

Also interesting is that Ron the Plumber likes Rehau because of it's better flexibility. I found that I moved away from that product because I found it to be too stiff! :blink: Makes me wonder if the stuff they peddle here is the same that's sold elsewhere. (Things that make you go, "hmmm")

Another good point is the different qualities of each grade. Like, is poor quality Pex A better than good quality Pex B? I still contend that the methods for making A generally result in a more uniform crosslinking than that of B but quality control at the plant matters hugely.


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## Ron

I use the clear pex, you can tie it in knots.


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## Miguel

Thanks Ron.
Yeh, that's not the stuff I was able to get. I'd bet you could wear a blindfold and be able to tell the difference just by handling it. The stuff I use now looks similar to your pic.
Is that UV stabilized at all? Prolly not to be installed where sunlight can reach it but some mfrs will still warranty their product if it's been found to be in the sun for up to two years.


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## user823

I'm only using the Viega Pureflow system again. Tried going back to Uponor but found I didn't like it again, for the second time around. I even sold my brand new Uponor Propex 150 yesterday.
Starting a job tomorrow, 600' of Blue Viega Pureflow pex going in. Blue is now my color of choice for Pex, don't ask me why. Ripping out most all the copper in the place.
When I transition from copper to pex such as a water service coming up in a basement etc. I'm using this fitting, no more soldering on brass transition fittings:








It's a Viega ProPress x Viega Pureflow Pex fitting. It's going to save me tons of time using this.:thumbsup:


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## Ron

Everything you wanted to know about uponor can be found right here.

http://www.uponor-usa.com/Header/Service/For-Professionals/Overview.aspx


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## user823

Ron The Plumber said:


> Everything you wanted to know about uponor can be found right here.
> 
> http://www.uponor-usa.com/Header/Service/For-Professionals/Overview.aspx



Thanks Ron, man I love how Uponor goes together with the black EP fittings, it's nice and it's tight! I just found it taking so much longer to expand for each fitting especially with the new expander gun I was using, had to expand like 8 times for 3/4". And then had the problems with the brass fittings not taking solder.

Even though I really like the Uponor pex I had to go back to Viega because of the bronze fittings (no dezinc) and the ease of combining the propress with the pureflow. Also the speed of the system, way faster. And then testing instantly no matter what the temp is.


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## Ron

I use the RTI Crimp system, crimp and go. Sure above 1" you need to use the expansion system


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## Airgap

ironranger said:


> I'm only using the Viega Pureflow system again. Tried going back to Uponor but found I didn't like it again, for the second time around. I even sold my brand new Uponor Propex 150 yesterday.
> Starting a job tomorrow, 600' of Blue Viega Pureflow pex going in. Blue is now my color of choice for Pex, don't ask me why. Ripping out most all the copper in the place.
> When I transition from copper to pex such as a water service coming up in a basement etc. I'm using this fitting, no more soldering on brass transition fittings:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a Viega ProPress x Viega Pureflow Pex fitting. It's going to save me tons of time using this.:thumbsup:


It's gonna get real pricey for somebody using those on every copper to pex transition.


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## ILPlumber

ironranger said:


>


Are WFU's figured the same way when using pex?

That is one heck of an I.D. difference in the photo.


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## Airgap

Looks more like a PP x MPT, than a PP x Pex. Looks like a reducer to me.


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## user823

Airgap said:


> Looks more like a PP x MPT, than a PP x Pex. Looks like a reducer to me.


No, it's PPxpex but after looking at the picture I posted again it is a reducer. 3/4"PPx1/2"pex.
Sizing is figured the same as copper.
They cost a little more than the sweat x pex bronze viega fitting but they're worth it and the cost is built into the job anyway.


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## Ron

ILPlumber said:


> Are WFU's figured the same way when using pex?
> 
> That is one heck of an I.D. difference in the photo.



Pex is sized the same way as copper.


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## TheMaster

Ron The Plumber said:


> Pex is sized the same way as copper.


 They will not allow 3/4 pex here for a water service but they will allow copper. They cite the smaller I.D as the reason.


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## Airgap

Ron The Plumber said:


> Pex is sized the same way as copper.


 The ID's of pex and copper are different. 1/2 pex has a smaller ID than 1/2 copper, and so forth.


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## GREENPLUM

Has anyone used the Sharkbite Pex?


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## user823

Airgap said:


> The ID's of pex and copper are different. 1/2 pex has a smaller ID than 1/2 copper, and so forth.


It doesn't matter, according to all plumbing codes it's sized the same as copper.


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## user823

I ran over 500' of pex today, removed existing copper. The customer made a comment about how much better the water volume and pressure is. hmmmm


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## TheMaster

ironranger said:


> It doesn't matter, according to all plumbing codes it's sized the same as copper.


 According to our city code all water service mains must be a minimum of 1" if the pipe uses fittings that insert into the pipe. 3/4 pex is not allowed yet 3/4 coper is allowed. So not all codes allow copper to be sized the same as pex.


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## GREENPLUM

GA Plumbing Code does not allow 3/4 PEX to be used for water service, it must be atleast 1". Of course copper waterlines can be 3/4, its bigger ID pipe.:whistling2:


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## Airgap

ironranger said:


> I ran over 500' of pex today, removed existing copper. The customer made a comment about how much better the water volume and pressure is. hmmmm


Home runs? If so, that would make sense. If not, they were probably just being nice to you.


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## Ron

Don't we all just love codes. Nothing is standardized.


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## nhmaster3015

Our plumbing board is still wrestling with the issue. For now it is being handled on a case by case basis.


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## Protech

There is no such thing as 100% crosslinked pex. If pex was to be achieve 100% crosslink it would be brittle and hard. The amount of crosslinking is held in a certain tolerance. I don't remember what that range is though. I think what you mean is that uponor is uniformly crosslinked. 

The downside to the Engel process (pex-a) is that you are limited in how much antioxidant that can go into the resin. The Engle process also gives you an irregular wall thickness and ID. That's one of the reasons uponor uses expansion fittings instead of crimp. It's also why uponor has such a short permissible UV exposure time and is more sensitive to chlorine (which kinda scares me a little).

Silane pex(pex-b) can have much higher amounts of UV inhibitors and antioxidants put into the resin. You can also use multi-layer and composite pex with pex-b. Pex-b is my personal favorite. 

irradiated or electon beam(pex-c) is a variety that I have little experience with but it's biggest problem is crosslink variance from the reading if done. perhaps this is what uponor is referring to when they speak of uneven crosslinking.


All in all, I'd have to give the original article an "F". Not very accurate. Do you own research.

Just the $.02 from the super pex man



nhmaster3015 said:


> I do think it is important to do some research before committing to anyone product. There is a definite difference in quality between the brands and that has a direct relationship to the manufacturing process and to some extent the joining method. Every manufacturer will proudly tell you that their product is the best and indeed PEX is being manufactured and or re-labled from plants all over the world. Uponor has claimed that their pex is superior because the cross linking process takes place in the mix tank, thereby insuring that the product is 100% molecularly linked, whereas those products that rely on electrification at the extruder to perform the cross link process can at times leave areas that are improperly linked.


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## Protech

It would make pefect sense if the old copper was scaled up.



Airgap said:


> Home runs? If so, that would make sense. If not, they were probably just being nice to you.


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## Protech

You can use 3/4" pipe for a water service as long as your flow pressures come out within code spec. Not a good idea for long services with high flow rates though. 1 bath house in the city with 100psi pressure and a 15' run from the meter to the house, sure I'll use 3/4 pex.



TheMaster said:


> According to our city code all water service mains must be a minimum of 1" if the pipe uses fittings that insert into the pipe. 3/4 pex is not allowed yet 3/4 coper is allowed. So not all codes allow copper to be sized the same as pex.


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## Protech

That's right Ron. It's sized the same because it can safely convey water a t higher velocities with less friction (smoother walls) so it ends up being pretty close to copper even though it's slightly smaller.



Ron The Plumber said:


> Pex is sized the same way as copper.


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## Protech

No, and I never will.



GREENPLUM said:


> Has anyone used the Sharkbite Pex?


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## para1

ironranger said:


> Viega Pureflow Pex is made in their own plant in Wichita KS.:thumbsup:
> It's my pex of choice.
> Pex A, B, only shows how the pex is made. It is not a quality factor even though some think so.
> 
> http://www.viega.net/4693.htm
> 
> That's all, not saying another word. Goodnight!


 
What's this , now I've got to go back and read the O P


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## Airgap

Protech said:


> It would make pefect sense if the old copper was scaled up.


 *Note to self* Never drink the water in Florida. :blink::no:


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## user823

Protech said:


> It would make pefect sense if the old copper was scaled up.



The copper I removed was very old. I should have taken some pictures because the inside of the pipe had a large amount of black build up. I don't know it's scale or what but it was restricting the pipes.

To the other poster, they were not just being nice, not for the price they paid for this job. They had a very noticeable difference.


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## stillaround

Airgap said:


> *Note to self* Never drink the water in Florida. :blink::no:


 Not so fast...I have the most delicious well water that is very pure. Florida has some mighty pure spring water---theyll tell you about it if you ever go ride the glass bottom boat. Pervasive hardness in many areas but sometimes youll catch a sweet spot.

Come on..nice weather, pure water, and all the pex you can ever want to use...its the sunshine state....solar works here.....beach is close by...orange juice(is that Anita Bryant singing) ...and good water.....those pesky south Florida politicos have tried to pass legislation to pipeline our pure sweet spring water down south..but no can do...viva la agua..

Ok???


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## user823

stillaround said:


> Not so fast...I have the most delicious well water that is very pure. Florida has some mighty pure spring water---theyll tell you about it if you ever go ride the glass bottom boat. Pervasive hardness in many areas but sometimes youll catch a sweet spot.
> 
> Come on..nice weather, pure water, and all the pex you can ever want to use...its the sunshine state....solar works here.....beach is close by...orange juice(is that Anita Bryant singing) ...and good water.....those pesky south Florida politicos have tried to pass legislation to pipeline our pure sweet spring water down south..but no can do...viva la agua..
> 
> Ok???


Just one problem, the HUMIDITY.


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## stillaround

ironranger said:


> Just one problem, the HUMIDITY.


 You get so used to it that coming back from Phoenix or LA you step out in Orlando, Tampa or Jax and say ahhhhhh as it crawls on your skin and you breath it in. There have been some steamy days at times though


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## Airgap

stillaround said:


> Not so fast...I have the most delicious well water that is very pure. Florida has some mighty pure spring water---theyll tell you about it if you ever go ride the glass bottom boat. Pervasive hardness in many areas but sometimes youll catch a sweet spot.
> 
> Come on..nice weather, pure water, and all the pex you can ever want to use...its the sunshine state....solar works here.....beach is close by...orange juice(is that Anita Bryant singing) ...and good water.....those pesky south Florida politicos have tried to pass legislation to pipeline our pure sweet spring water down south..but no can do...viva la agua..
> 
> Ok???


 :laughing: I was really just messin with Protech. I had a feelin I'd get a rise outta the Floridians. 

If I could live down there from december to february I would. Maybe when I'm old and gray that's what I'll do. 

Get me a big craigslist handyhack ad and kick back on retirement...........:laughing::laughing::laughinglummin 15/hr.


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## Airgap

ironranger said:


> The copper I removed was very old. I should have taken some pictures because the inside of the pipe had a large amount of black build up. I don't know it's scale or what but it was restricting the pipes.
> 
> To the other poster, they were not just being nice, not for the price they paid for this job. They had a very noticeable difference.


 Wow. Now I see.

Sincerely,

The other poster


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## user823

Airgap said:


> Wow. Now I see.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> The other poster


Sorry, just didn't remember who wrote it when I was typing and I'm too lazy to look. No harm intended.:laughing:


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## nhmaster3015

I dunno, I lived in Deland and Ft Myers for a while. couldn't drink the water either place.


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## Airgap

nhmaster3015 said:


> I dunno, I lived in Deland and Ft Myers for a while. couldn't drink the water either place.


:laughing::laughing: That settles it!:laughing::laughing: JK


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## stillaround

Airgap said:


> :laughing::laughing: That settles it!:laughing::laughing: JK


 Shoot my dog, cut down my tree, insult everyone who looks like me but dont rag on my water ....99.6% pure. Further south the worse it gets


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## user823

stillaround said:


> Shoot my dog, cut down my tree, insult everyone who looks like me but dont rag on my water ....99.6% pure. Further south the worse it gets


This don't sound too good?

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...hy&gbv=2&hl=en&sa=G&ei=hImRSqWCOcSktwfD8vnPBA

I know, it's a water softener company bashing the water!


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## stillaround

Ok I get it..see if I come out of my skin...nope Ill stay calm or Ill leave .
The water up north in Fla. varies, but some spots are getting water from the north pole somewhere ( dont ask me to prove all this, Im drinking a delicious glass right now). Its very pure as is the spring water..Florida ranks about highest for hardness ...a little mineral gives good flavor though, in moderation) All I can say is a lot of No. Fla. has wonderful water......not to mention good weather etc etc etc ...maybe Ill go take a dip in the pool--the temperature is perfect today...again(nose high in the air)) Thanks for the opportunity to gloat.


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## Redwood

One Thing For Sure It Ain't This :laughing:


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## stillaround

There are some plants nearby of another brand---I think they are all a scam just filtering water...Zephyrhills is one thats not too bad...better than Aquafina...I dont know if these are national or not.


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## user823

stillaround said:


> Ok I get it..see if I come out of my skin...nope Ill stay calm or Ill leave .
> The water up north in Fla. varies, but some spots are getting water from the north pole somewhere ( dont ask me to prove all this, Im drinking a delicious glass right now). Its very pure as is the spring water..Florida ranks about highest for hardness ...a little mineral gives good flavor though, in moderation) All I can say is a lot of No. Fla. has wonderful water......not to mention good weather etc etc etc ...maybe Ill go take a dip in the pool--the temperature is perfect today...again(nose high in the air)) Thanks for the opportunity to gloat.



Minerals in the water are great for you!:thumbup:


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## Miguel

ironranger said:


> The copper I removed was very old. I should have taken some pictures because the inside of the pipe had a large amount of black build up. I don't know it's scale or what but it was restricting the pipes.
> 
> To the other poster, they were not just being nice, not for the price they paid for this job. They had a very noticeable difference.


Could it also be you piped it a little more "cleanly" than was originally installed? Over the years it's common for repairs and alterations to make a less than ideal distribution system with pipes running here and there and not much thought to flow carrying capacity. Just a thought.
Btw, how thick was this scale???


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## user823

Miguel said:


> Could it also be you piped it a little more "cleanly" than was originally installed? Over the years it's common for repairs and alterations to make a less than ideal distribution system with pipes running here and there and not much thought to flow carrying capacity. Just a thought.


Pex has a better flow capacity to begin with and the job is cleaner, meaning less turns etc.:thumbup:


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## Proud Plumber

I wish my water came from you Stillaround, we have R.O. city water and it is nasty. You can taste and smell the heavy chemical overdose. Worse.... it eats copper plumbing. Nasty stuff... our well has a high sulfer content and reeks. Pex and Cpvc are really our only options here.


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