# Looking for comments on bottle traps



## Scott Vroom (Feb 12, 2010)

I'm installing a vessel sink on a teak counter top. The underside drain plumbing will be exposed and I'm leaning toward using one of the new "bottle trap" decorative traps, either a Mountain MT2000 or Kohler K-9035. Any thoughts on bottle traps in general and these 2 models in particular?

Thanks-
Scott


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Nobody here, but us chickens.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

buk buk beyuk!

I thought those were only legal on highrise BT's?


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## Scott Vroom (Feb 12, 2010)

Chris and Miguel,

Er, there must be some humor in my post that I don't see. Perhaps u could enlighten me?:whistling2:

Is this the wrong forum to ask about bottle trap decorative drains? If so, plz direct me to the right forum.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Well scott if you are a plumber you are welcome to make an intro post and we'll talk if you are not head over to http://www.diychatroom.com/


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Hi Scott, bottle traps here under my code tells me there only allowed to be used under spacial conditions. Now I don't know what code you use, what does your code say?

Look for trap codes in your book.

Folks just because a new members ask a question and has not made an intro does not the mean member is not a plumber. Intro are not a requirement.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Aw, now the poor guy is going to think we are all a bunch of mean spirited A holes :whistling2:


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Hi Scott, bottle traps here under my code tells me there only allowed to be used under spacial conditions. Now I don't know what code you use, what does your code say?
> 
> Look for trap codes in your book.
> 
> Folks just because a new members ask a question and has not made an intro does not the mean member is not a plumber. Intro are not a requirement.


It's not? We sure do slam the door on anyone that doesn't make one or at least until they make one.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> It's not? We sure do slam the door on anyone that doesn't make one or at least until they make one.



Not anymore, staff has talked about this.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

no intros? I guess this is for "Quantity" not "Quality", who cares if your a plumber or not.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Scott Vroom said:


> I'm installing a vessel sink on a teak counter top. The underside drain plumbing will be exposed and I'm leaning toward using one of the new "bottle trap" decorative traps, either a Mountain MT2000 or Kohler K-9035. Any thoughts on bottle traps in general and these 2 models in particular?
> 
> Thanks-
> Scott


i dont know and dont care scott.:thumbsup:


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## Scott Vroom (Feb 12, 2010)

GREENPLUM said:


> i dont know and dont care scott.:thumbsup:


Pretty hostile crowd here. The ***** slapping is unwarranted; I'll take my questions elsewhere.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Scott Vroom said:


> Pretty hostile crowd here. The ***** slapping is unwarranted; I'll take my questions elsewhere.


great :laughing:
dont let the spam hit you on the click outta here


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

I understand an intro not being a requirement, but it should definitely be encouraged. 

Most of us don't like giving advice to someone we don't know. The reason this is the best plumbing forum is that it's for "professional plumbers only".


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

But I guess we don't have to be such pricks about it. Doesn't do alot to improve the image of the professional plumber in the public's eyes.
I know I've had my fun mocking the unfortunate saps that've stumbled in here looking for help, but when I think about it I'd never treat someone that way in the physical world under similar circumstances.


Has anyone had any experience with the traps he's talking about? Our code deals with it: 
*7.2.3.1(5) Except as permitted in Sentence (6), no bottle trap shall be used in a plumbing system *
* (6) A bottle trap may be used on a laboratory sink or other fixture equipped with corrosion resistant fittings.*


:blink:
How clear is that?
So, provided they've got CSA's approval they can be used but I wonder how well they work. They're an inherrently bad design IMHO.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I just got back from a code class, it this was in the lineup, bottle traps in special use is like hair salons, pet grooming, things of this nature, hospitals where needed.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

we use them all the time if the cabinet is open underneath. they look a lot cleaner than a regular trap.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

house plumber said:


> we use them all the time if the cabinet is open underneath. they look a lot cleaner than a regular trap.


You prefer them over Chrome traps I take it?


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> You prefer them over Chrome traps I take it?


I do personally. Just on chrome or like polished nickel or satin nickel. Like I said, it looks cleaner. but if you go oil rubbed bronze its such a dark color anyway a regular trap is fine by me.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

They are cool looking tho, wish they were not so strict on codes here, or I might sell a few.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> They are cool looking tho, wish they were not so strict on codes here, or I might sell a few.


why are your codes against them?


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Oregon has some weird codes we have to follow. I learned some new code updates today, the cool thing about it, the class went fast 3 hrs and was good for 8 hrs. All my CED hours are done.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Oregon has some weird codes we have to follow. I learned some new code updates today, the cool thing about it, the class went fast 3 hrs and was good for 8 hrs. All my CED hours are done.


 cool. What are some of the new updates?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

*1002.2 Design of traps.* *Fixture traps shall be self-scouring.* Fixture traps shall not have interior partitions, except where such traps are integral with the fixture or where such traps are constructed of an approved material that is resistant to corrosion and degradation. Slip joints shall be made with an approved elastomeric gasket and shall be installed only on the trap inlet, trap outlet and within the trap seal. *

1002.3 Prohibited traps.* The following types of traps are prohibited: 

1. Traps that depend on moving parts to maintain the seal. 
2. Bell traps. 
3. Crown-vented traps. *
4. Traps not integral with a fixture and that depend on interior partitions for the seal, except those traps constructed of an approved material that is resistant to corrosion and degradation.* 
5. "S" traps. 
6. Drum traps. *

Exception:* Drum traps used as solids interceptors and drum traps serving chemical waste systems shall not be prohibited.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Well lets not take this topic to far off topic, maybe I'll start a new thread soon.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

A brass bottle trap does not satisfy the two red sections.

Brass is not an approved material and they are not self scouring.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

^^^are you trying to say bottle traps are illegal?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

That's the way I'm reading it. I'm allowed to install ice makers and dish washers without hammer arrestors in my area even though the code explicitly says I can't. Just because your inspector let's you do it doesn't mean it's up to code. Grey areas......


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech said:


> *
> 
> Prohibited traps.* The following types of traps are prohibited:
> 
> ...


*

That is almost word for word in our code book, except for Bottle and Drum Traps as I mentioned already.*


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

They are illegal in NH but for some stupid reason waterless urinals are legal and they use a GD BELL trap :furious:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

AS much as I hate waterless urinals, they are legal as the trap is integral with the fixture and is corrosion resistant. I wish they would outlaw those POS.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

these are the ones we install.

http://mountainplumbing.com/mt1000


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I do like the look of those.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> I do like the look of those.


 
now you know why I said it makes a cleaner look. And they're approved


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

*APPROVED.* Acceptable to the code official or other authority having jurisdiction.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

They come any all the finishes.

So the price they show on that site, you get a better cost at your supplier? I would guess there a special order item, or are they a common stock item?


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Protech said:


> *APPROVED.* Acceptable to the code official or other authority having jurisdiction.


 
either way it passes, so I'm not complaining.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Protech said:


> *APPROVED.* Acceptable to the code official or other authority having jurisdiction.


 
*Features*

Traditional Style Trap
PATENTED Design
Heavy Cast Brass Trap
IAPMO(UPC) and CSA Approved
1-1/4″ x 1-1/4″ Trap with 9″ Drain Pipe


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> They come any all the finishes.
> 
> So the price they show on that site, you get a better cost at your supplier? I would guess there a special order item, or are they a common stock item?


 
I don't know what we pay for them. Us workers in the field don't know any prices. I think a showroom in Sarasota called The Plumbing Place has them in stock.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

The primary objection to them is the interior partition.
If it corrodes the trap seal is gone and there is no visual indicator of that occurring. 
I smell poop!:whistling2:


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

*Section 890.410 Fixture Traps/Continuous Waste *
d) Type of Traps. Traps shall have a uniform and smooth interior, and shall have no partitions or movable parts. The trap seal shall be non-adjustable. ​k) Prohibited Traps. Use of the following traps is prohibited (see Appendix D: Illustration E): 

1) Traps which depend upon the action of movable parts for their seal. 

2) Full "S" traps. Exception: Water closet and similar fixtures which depend on self-siphonage for their proper operation. 

3) Bell traps. 

4) Crown vented traps. 

5) Unvented running traps. 

6) Fixtures with concealed interior partitioned traps. Exception: Fixtures with integral traps constructed of vitrified earthenware and penal institutional fixtures with integral traps constructed of ferrous material.​


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## swedishcharm21 (Oct 29, 2011)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using a bottle trap. It functions like a P style trap, they have a 2 inch seal. Our state plumbing board approves and the IPC does too. Can be a little pricey, but that is about the only complaint I hear about them.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

swedishcharm21 said:


> There is absolutely nothing wrong with using a bottle trap. It functions like a P style trap, they have a 2 inch seal. Our state plumbing board approves and the IPC does too. Can be a little pricey, but that is about the only complaint I hear about them.


*groan* Why'd you have to dredge this up. You just KNEW I'd hafta respond!

lol, all kidding aside, the so called bottle traps, or the decorative little chromed plastic thingies that cling to the underside of designer lavs are IMHO COMPLETE CRAP! Sure there's a trap seal there but only on day one with clear water. After toothpaste gets spat in the lav and some hair gets sent down the drain they fail miserably. Sure you can find "code approved" bottle traps but once in use you wonder what kinda payola went on to get the "approval" in the first place.

I could be wrong but I take pride in knowing that all my drains are pitched just so and there are no dips or sags in my venting and I can even allow some for questionable fixtures. The sizing is always code standard and if it doesn't meet with code then it exceeds it. And STILL I hear a little _gluck gluck_ when the WC is flushed. :furious: I've installed a few and every one I'd like to deep-six.

The finest one I ever installed was on an exposed drain beneath a clear glass vessel lav on an opaque glass topped wall hung vanity. There were LED lights throughout this thing and it was quite the site to behold when it was all lit up but it would still siphon a bit if the wind blew strong. I actually measured it on a windy day with a digital manometer and although the pressure difference was within +/- .01" WC I could still hear the dreaded _gluck_. The HO loved it and although we still send one of the junior guys out every 6 mos to "clean" the trap I find myself not liking it one bit.

That's my take on those designer traps.


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## liquidplumber (Dec 6, 2009)

They are a no go in Massachusetts. I have installed a few though, they are purdy

(c) Prohibited Traps. The following type traps are prohibited.

Traps which depend upon moving parts to maintain their seal.

Bell traps.

Crown vented traps.

Separate fixture traps which depend on interior partitions for their seal.

Full "S" traps.

(d) Design of Traps.

Fixture traps shall be self-scouring and shall have no interior partitions except where such traps are integral with the fixture.


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## Dmaz (Jan 11, 2011)

The only bottle drains I've installed have been glass ones in high school science labs. Make it easy to pull out the pencils and other crap kids shove down the drains


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

I've been using them for about 20 years w/out any known issues or callbacks.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

I was thinking bottle traps and drum traps were the same. Drum traps were required on the tech sinks I worked on at the hospitals in AZ. Am I missing something is there a difference?


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

DesertOkie said:


> I was thinking bottle traps and drum traps were the same. Drum traps were required on the tech sinks I worked on at the hospitals in AZ. Am I missing something is there a difference?


There is a photo of a bottle trap in post #33.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Widdershins said:


> There is a photo of a bottle trap in post #33.



That looks like it.


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## swedishcharm21 (Oct 29, 2011)

Miguel said:


> *groan* Why'd you have to dredge this up. You just KNEW I'd hafta respond!
> 
> lol, all kidding aside, the so called bottle traps, or the decorative little chromed plastic thingies that cling to the underside of designer lavs are IMHO COMPLETE CRAP! Sure there's a trap seal there but only on day one with clear water. After toothpaste gets spat in the lav and some hair gets sent down the drain they fail miserably. Sure you can find "code approved" bottle traps but once in use you wonder what kinda payola went on to get the "approval" in the first place.
> 
> ...


I hear you buddy, I hear you.

By the way, was that glass vessel lav made by "Fresca" ? if so, those models will take nothing BUT a bottle trap, the pedestal they sit on will not accommodate anything else. Fresca is usually sold at Menards, and every now and then it is chosen by a client. Avoid the "Netto" version at all costs! If you ever have a HO who wants one...spend the time to talk them out of it. They are flimsy and to be truthful, they are a piece of Sh!T.


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## Good Enuff P&H (Mar 24, 2012)

liquidplumber said:


> They are a no go in Massachusetts. I have installed a few though, they are purdy
> 
> (c) Prohibited Traps. The following type traps are prohibited.
> 
> ...


 
Also, you can only use slip joints on the inlet ("house side") of the trap in MA


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

swedishcharm21 said:


> I hear you buddy, I hear you.
> 
> By the way, was that glass vessel lav made by "Fresca" ? if so, those models will take nothing BUT a bottle trap, the pedestal they sit on will not accommodate anything else. Fresca is usually sold at Menards, and every now and then it is chosen by a client. Avoid the "Netto" version at all costs! If you ever have a HO who wants one...spend the time to talk them out of it. They are flimsy and to be truthful, they are a piece of Sh!T.


Not sure who the mfgr was but it was an Italian outfit. Quite high-end and very nice when finished. The top was opaque glass too, which added to the effect when all the lights were on. What I DID like was that the special PO arrangement they supplied to mount the basin on this top came with a tailpiece that fit North American tube sizes (_ie: 1 1/4"_) so it was easy to adapt. What I DIDN'T like was the cheesey bottle trap that came with it, and sure enough it was a problem from day one. I ended up changing it out to a 16 ga chromed p-trap and the client seems very satisfied with it. Also, it drains better and doesn't siphon or lose trap seal on a windy day!

Turns out our code has a loophole that allows these crappy traps. At one time they were simply prohibited but there are certain instances when one might be desired so they changed the wording to:

*7.2.3.1 Traps*
_(6) Except as permitt in Sentence (7), no bottle trap shall be used in a plumbing system._
_ (7) A bottle trap may be used on a laboratory sink or other fixture equipped with corrosion resistant fittings._


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