# Bidding



## PunkRockPlumber (Mar 26, 2012)

So. I'm still new at this but I put in a bid for a new house. 2 and 1/2 bathroom, kitchen. Water heater, stove and furnace for gas. I bid 19K and GC thinks I'm out of my mind. Am I? Said he has a plumber who can do it for 10k.


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## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

Great, then let that guy go broke doing it for 10K. I would have charged more than that just for the plumbing.


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## PlumberJake (Nov 15, 2010)

There is always the possibility that if you had said you could do it for 10K, that he would have said he had a plumber that could do it for 5k. :whistling2:


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## PinkPlumber (May 20, 2012)

Let him get his 10k guy in there while you go on down the road making money...
Don't fall for his game. Hang tight on what you need to do it. Come down one time and you will lose respect and never be able to get jobs for a decent price. They will smell blood in the water.

:thumbsup:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

PlumberJake said:


> There is always the possibility that if you had said you could do it for 10K, that he would have said he had a plumber that could do it for 5k. :whistling2:


Possibility my arse. I'd put money on that bet any day of the week.

GC is an ancient term which translated from the original Latin literally means "liar".


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## PunkRockPlumber (Mar 26, 2012)

The problem I face is that I am trying to grow my business. Would it be a bad thing to take the job just to get my foot in the new construction door? And risk having the foot cut off. It's more
money than I'd be making sitting home. GC probably knows that too. I'm F***ed.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

MikeBKNY78 said:


> The problem I face is that I am trying to grow my business. Would it be a bad thing to take the job just to get my foot in the new construction door? And risk having the foot cut off. It's more
> money than I'd be making sitting home. GC probably knows that too. I'm F***ed.


As long as you know EXACTLY what your real number should have been and that you can live with the discount.

The philosophy that many service plumbing companies have is *"If I can't Have Steak, I Will Refuse To Eat"*.

That is only possible if you are guaranteed of getting another call. That guarantee is not possible when pursuing residential new construction. It seems there is always somebody willing (and able) to work for less.

There is nothing wrong, illegal, or immoral about lowering your profit margin to keep food on the table. Just remember, now that you have played this game with the GC and lost, you will always lose with him.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

MikeBKNY78 said:


> ....just to get my foot in the new construction door?...


Why is getting your foot in the door with new construction a priority?


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## PinkPlumber (May 20, 2012)

I agree...as long as you run the numbers and come up with an acceptable profit....no sense doing things for free to get your foot in the door....cause they will think they can always beat you down. Do you want repeat business because you are considered cheap? Or good at what you do and worth the money?
Remember, the GC is just trying to make as much as he can, and if that means dipping into some of yours, he will gladly do it.

Don't forget to cover your warranties....


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> Why is getting your foot in the door with new construction a priority?


For a lot of us, New Construction *IS* our bread and butter.


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## grandpa (Jul 13, 2008)

Are you prepared to front the costs for the job and wait weeks...possibly months....to get any payments??


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## PunkRockPlumber (Mar 26, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> Why is getting your foot in the door with new construction a priority?


It's not necessarily a priority but it's the aspect of plumbing I enjoy most. I know service is the bread and butter of the industry but I'd rather do new construction.


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## PunkRockPlumber (Mar 26, 2012)

Widdershins said:


> For a lot of us, New Construction *IS* our bread and butter.


LOL I guess it depends in who you ask


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

PinkPlumber said:


> I agree...as long as you run the numbers and come up with an acceptable profit....no sense doing things for free to get your foot in the door....cause they will think they can always beat you down. Do you want repeat business because you are considered cheap? Or good at what you do and worth the money?
> Remember, the GC is just trying to make as much as he can, and if that means dipping into some of yours, he will gladly do it.


This is a fallacy.

Unless the GC is building the home on spec and doing his own financing, the GC always marks up your bill before submitting it to the HO -- Which means he or she is losing money on lowball bids.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

MikeBKNY78 said:


> LOL I guess it depends in who you ask


The only piece of drain cleaning equipment I own is a closet auger -- And it's buried in a job box somewhere down in the subterranean shop.:yes:


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## Radium (Dec 25, 2010)

I would say You will meet or beat the other plumbers quote if he showed it. If he doesn't show the quote he is full of it. 10k is way to low. But -Just- honor your quote on that one house, though. See how needy the builder is during the process. Those low ballers want you there every second of the every day.

Sent from my iPad using PlumbingZone


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

Different states , different prices. 2.5 bath no gas is around 15 fixtures. I live in Weatherford Texas and I can do that for 8175.00 no fixtures included. That is all utilities stubbed out 2' from exterior wall. I charge almost 600 an opening( sink 1 opening, tub 1 opening) has is usually around the same per opening. All water pex, sewer PVC and gas black. 

I am expensive at that price !! I get beat out all day long. But I have a lot of contractors that know what kind of job they will get, and that's why they use us. 

My profit for a job like that is around 5000.00
Can do it in 5 total days. 1 rough in, 4 top out, and 1 to sit customer/contractor supplied fixtures. No warranty on fixtures! 

I am sure some Texas guys can agree to this price. You need to find similar competition and compare apples to apples.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Cost of living/business in NJ vs Texas is not even close from what I understand (never been to NYC myself, but I can read, heh).


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

MikeBKNY78 said:


> So. I'm still new at this but I put in a bid for a new house. 2 and 1/2 bathroom, kitchen. Water heater, stove and furnace for gas. I bid 19K and GC thinks I'm out of my mind. Am I? Said he has a plumber who can do it for 10k.


 






You are supplying fixtures for that price, including the furnace, right? What about all the duct work and venting for the furnace, that included too? As well as the type-B venting for the water heater? 

If all of that is included in your price, then that doesn't sound unreasonable.

Around here, $ 14,000- $ 15,000 was price for a new (2) bath home around here; that included all roughs and fixtures. But that was without a furnace (S. FL doesn't need furnaces).


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## PunkRockPlumber (Mar 26, 2012)

Tommy plumber said:


> You are supplying fixtures for that price, including the furnace, right? What about all the duct work and venting for the furnace, that included too? As well as the type-B venting for the water heater?
> 
> If all of that is included in your price, then that doesn't sound unreasonable.
> 
> Around here, $ 14,000- $ 15,000 was price for a new (2) bath home around here; that included all roughs and fixtures. But that was without a furnace (S. FL doesn't need furnaces).


No the furnace isn't included only running the gas to the furnace.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*be smart and build up the service end*



MikeBKNY78 said:


> It's not necessarily a priority but it's the aspect of plumbing I enjoy most. I know service is the bread and butter of the industry but I'd rather do new construction.


so you love construction the most ok .....
and that is fine for now cause you are a young stud
and need to prove that you can plumb the planet...

but what you enjoy doing most at 20-25 years old and what 
your body will be capable of doing in 30 years is the question you got to ask yourself...:blink::yes:


if you dont build up the service end of the business some day you
are simply not going to be able to keep up and you are gonna look and FEEL
like a broken down old mule carrying fiberglass tubs into a building...


go ahead and do the new construction if you must, but be smart and slowly
build up a service cleintell by plastering you name on all your work 
so they call you back for the easy gravey work 7 years from now.....




I KNOW that I made more installing a 75 gallon power vent ,
installing a tub faucet, and doing a few small service calls in 
some homes in just one day (today) over what some dumb ass 
made doing a whole rough and finish on a average house...


jut sit down and do the numbers and add up the wear and tear on your body....

*eventually.... it all begins to make more sense around 40 years old*


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## PunkRockPlumber (Mar 26, 2012)

Master Mark said:


> so you love construction the most ok .....
> and that is fine for now cause you are a young stud
> and need to prove that you can plumb the planet...
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice. Of course I still do service calls and will continue to do so. But if I am still working out in the field at 55-60+ years old, I've asked my wife to kick me down a flight of stairs


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## socalplmr1 (May 27, 2012)

PinkPlumber said:


> Let him get his 10k guy in there while you go on down the road making money...
> Don't fall for his game. Hang tight on what you need to do it. Come down one time and you will lose respect and never be able to get jobs for a decent price. They will smell blood in the water.
> 
> :thumbsup:


I totally agree...
the 10k guy will be broke soon....


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## PinkPlumber (May 20, 2012)

MikeBKNY78 said:


> Thanks for the advice. Of course I still do service calls and will continue to do so. But if I am still working out in the field at 55-60+ years old, I've asked my wife to kick me down a flight of stairs



Oh honey....by that age you will have fallen down a few flights on your own... with a 50 gallon tank chasing you...when I was younger, these things were funny...now that I am an old woman, it could be fatal....or at least break a hip....
I used to be able to keep up with the younger guys....now I pay them to carry heavy things cuz I can't risk what I have left after beating myself with heavy materials and tools for so long.....worth every minute though.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Pretend for a moment that this is true. When a person compromises they will compromise at least 3 times. Come back with 17 and see if he moves to 12 then come back at 15.

Play the barter game. Nothing to lose and everything to gain if you play the game.


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

Great advice by all. Trust me, a gc's loyalty ends at the latest bid on new construction. Their side of the story is that they will lose the bid if they don't go with the lower subs number. How about this:
-demand to see the other quote in writing to compare apples to apples.
-"Exclusions". Put this in your quote. Exclusions can be core drilling, firestopping, utility fees, as built drawings, excavation, backfill, sawcutting and breaking, disposal, and dinner with your in-laws.
-there is plenty of work in NJ. Subscribe to a construction newsletter. I do not work there, but I get lots of email bid invitations.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

I"ve got atleast 20 GC's I do work for. You know how many that I do 100% of their plumbing jobs? ....... Two. Thats it. These two give me all their work, & they still mumble & complain a little about pricing, but not too much anymore. They've tried other plumbers, but not for a while. 

The rest are only concerned about price. Had a GC do a big remodel at one of my customers houses, & the customer made him use me for the plumbing, & all my billing had to go through GC. He complimented my work, & praised me up & down, but I have bid atleast 5 nice sized, high end jobs for him, & never got one. So it all goes right back to the almighty dollar, is what determines who gets the job. No matter what, when it comes to a GC, if your price is too high, then you aint the guy, if your price is low, then its a go.

 If these other contractors wanna live in poverty, or wanna work their lives away too eek out a living, then they can have all the jobs & aggravation that comes along with it. I've had enough practice, I make money on all my jobs. If I can't make a worthwhile profit, then I will gladly let the cheap guys, have it. I don't give a rats rectum anymore.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

When bidding I find a place away from other bidders and competition and then quote my number. When they have a question about my bid I answser it otherwise i dont get into symantics! Thats the number!:thumbsup:


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> so you love construction the most ok .....
> and that is fine for now cause you are a young stud
> and need to prove that you can plumb the planet...
> 
> ...


 
My body is screaming to me now that the same thing happens in service.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Even the worst GC I know is not living in poverty. They manipulate the money in different directions such as putting this in a daughter’s name and that in a son’s name. Over here it is in the wife’s name and still over there it is in a cousin’s name. Then on top of that are several corporations that protect the money from creditors.

If a general contractor gets each sub to deduct from their bill that is more money in their pocket adding to their profit. Simple economics especially if all I must do is ask each to give me a break and they do it. I am not sure this makes a gc a bad gc.If I do it as a sub then shame on me.

I am not a fan of deducting. Once a person discovers I am willing to negotiate it defines that my pricing is suspect and I am not committed. When I negotiate both sides negotiate and give up stuff to get a cheaper price. They will compromise on quality, warranty, and service after the sale.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*you are smart*



PinkPlumber said:


> Oh honey....by that age you will have fallen down a few flights on your own... with a 50 gallon tank chasing you...when I was younger, these things were funny...now that I am an old woman, it could be fatal....or at least break a hip....
> I used to be able to keep up with the younger guys....now I pay them to carry heavy things cuz I can't risk what I have left after beating myself with heavy materials and tools for so long.....worth every minute though.


 
we did a 75 gallon power vent on thursday and had to take that old leaking unit up a flight of white stairs...

stood the unit upside down for the time we were installing the new one just to get all the swill in the top of it to drain out , then we taped a couple of garbge bags areound the bottom of it ....

while we were lugging it up the stairs I wondered how much it would cost for someone to remove these things for me.. ? 

 anyway with 3 of us it was not all that difficult but I could feel it on friday morning

I think that is a sure sign I am getting older and dont want to lug them ?


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

Don The Plumber said:


> I"ve got atleast 20 GC's I do work for. You know how many that I do 100% of their plumbing jobs? ....... Two. Thats it. These two give me all their work, & they still mumble & complain a little about pricing, but not too much anymore. They've tried other plumbers, but not for a while.
> 
> The rest are only concerned about price. Had a GC do a big remodel at one of my customers houses, & the customer made him use me for the plumbing, & all my billing had to go through GC. He complimented my work, & praised me up & down, but I have bid atleast 5 nice sized, high end jobs for him, & never got one. So it all goes right back to the almighty dollar, is what determines who gets the job. No matter what, when it comes to a GC, if your price is too high, then you aint the guy, if your price is low, then its a go.
> 
> *If these other contractors wanna live in poverty, or wanna work their lives away too eek out a living, then they can have all the jobs & aggravation that comes along with it. I've had enough practice, I make money on all my jobs. If I can't make a worthwhile profit, then I will gladly let the cheap guys, have it. I don't give a rats rectum anymore.*




*I agree 100% :thumbsup:*


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## PinkPlumber (May 20, 2012)

Master Mark said:


> we did a 75 gallon power vent on thursday and had to take that old leaking unit up a flight of white stairs...
> 
> stood the unit upside down for the time we were installing the new one just to get all the swill in the top of it to drain out , then we taped a couple of garbge bags areound the bottom of it ....
> 
> ...



You could have helpers do this for you, but I have helpers that are a bit scrawny...but quick...not helpful with big stuff, and I worry they will hurt themselves on my dime.
When doing a large job with lots of heavy stuff like that....consider hiring some guys from a small moving company. They come with their own worker's comp, moving equip, and such...:thumbup:
The moving business is down right now, so it's usually easy to get a couple of them to do this type of day labor for a bit of cash.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

PinkPlumber said:


> You could have helpers do this for you, but I have helpers that are a bit scrawny...but quick...not helpful with big stuff, and I worry they will hurt themselves on my dime.
> When doing a large job with lots of heavy stuff like that....consider hiring some guys from a small moving company. They come with their own worker's comp, moving equip, and such...:thumbup:
> The moving business is down right now, so it's usually easy to get a couple of them to do this type of day labor for a bit of cash.


I have used "scrappers" that I found on craigslist.
The scrappers advertise "free hauling " .
I will give the Home Owner the scrappers number and a small discount ( $15 to $25 ) and have them deal with moving it out.

If that is not acceptable with the HO , I have a guy that will remove water heaters from the basement for $50.
Its worth every penny to me.


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

Pink. if you have two helpers. You need one skinny small one. for tight places and the likes. Than one big one that is cock strong. for the physical work of moving stuff


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> I have used "scrappers" that I found on craigslist.
> The scrappers advertise "free hauling " .
> I will give the Home Owner the scrappers number and a small discount ( $15 to $25 ) and have them deal with moving it out.
> 
> ...


I tried to do the same thing. The ones I called were worthless and not worth a dang. Had a 600 pound cast iron boiler last year. needed it taken up the stairs and outside. Called 4 scrap guys off of craigslist. 2 didn't show. The other was a drunk and I told him to kick rocks. The last guy was a joke. He was 70 years old with a 80 year old helper:no:. They had no tools or hand cart. I asked them how they planned to get it up the stairs. Their reply don't you take it out to my truck? Hell no you are getting the scrap money you move it


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Have a plan..if it works great..if it doesnt have another...I'm 59 and I like doing 2 calls a day myself but in a couple years I want to pass the torch physically....I do have a plan and it includes me in the picture for many years to come....I still dig a bit and will crawl but its not the same....do the numbers, I agree with Master Mark. We used to do a lot of houses from 03 to 08 and the money was ok but the plan was a bit slow...I was gradually rolling to service, and didnt have enough to feed more than 2 of us when it burst. 
General contractors around here have attitudes:
1. can you help me out
2. I dont have that much in it
3. We'll get it on the next one
4. The other guy was lower I had to do it
5. I didnt get my draw
6. The banks screwed it up
7. Can you get here at this time because the concrete man has to get in early, he has another job
8. Can you go back over there and look at it for me
9. That much?????


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## PinkPlumber (May 20, 2012)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> I have used "scrappers" that I found on craigslist.
> The scrappers advertise "free hauling " .
> I will give the Home Owner the scrappers number and a small discount ( $15 to $25 ) and have them deal with moving it out.
> 
> ...


I am kinda funny about who I will let be in the home or even contact the customer with my name attached...reputation is everything....I did resort to calling a scrapper one time to remove some stuff, but stayed there the whole time he was getting it out.
If it's a crappy dirt basement or crawlspace and I don't want to deal with it....I leave it there with the owner's permission....usually though, I just roll things out to the curb and it's gone within an hour.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> I have used "scrappers" that I found on craigslist.
> The scrappers advertise "free hauling " .
> I will give the Home Owner the scrappers number and a small discount ( $15 to $25 ) and have them deal with moving it out.
> 
> ...


 I can just see it now:yes:, those big black shoe prints all over that white carpet stairway, along with a long rusty water trail, all the way out the door, & several gouges in the walls, along the way.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

My dad used scrappers in Chicago. He was a boilerman...he was on the job when they were there and when they were done it was clean. All that was left was to form and pour the pad. Thats where I learned what gravel, sand and portland was for......those guys kept a young boy entertained....ahhh the smell of cutting oil and cigar smoke...


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

600 # boiler? You weren't able to split the sections?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Had a steam boiler replacement at a large tudor house with fancy driveway.. to be careful with the old messy boiler, put down dropclothes, cardboards and old plywoods on driveway.
All scrapper had to do is to back up to the iron pile and load it up to his truck. What did he do? Fxxking stopped short like 20 ft from the pile and asked my helper to load the truck, dragging all the messy sections to the truck. Unknowned,I was in basement working til my helper told me after he was done, asked him why didn't he tell the scrapper to back up more? Didn't think of doing that, blew my top and told him go home and have my dad deal with him. Sure enough, my dad told him if he want the job, on your hands and knees to clean all the muck off the driveway without pay. He did. 
Fired the white scrapper, been using the cleaner and more polite black scrapper ever since.


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

newyorkcity said:


> 600 # boiler? You weren't able to split the sections?


nope couldn't get her to split. Tried hard for 6 minutes . Than gave up. Now my scrap guy is the first one. I consult on big projects when it comes to moving the old crap out:thumbsup::thumbup:


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

Just think about the last 5 yrs! are you sure you want to put all those eggs in one basket? Learn from someone that thought it was grenner on the other side of the fence. I let my service side falter while i thought construction was easy money. When the turn down hit i had to scramble to keep things afloat. Mainly because GCs were going belly up. Never again will i get that lopsided again. Make your main business service and maybe 20% at the most construction. We are 100% service now so i dont do any new construction at all.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

justin said:


> Different states , different prices. 2.5 bath no gas is around 15 fixtures. I live in Weatherford Texas and I can do that for 8175.00 no fixtures included.
> 
> My profit for a job like that is around 5000.00
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Had a steam boiler replacement at a large tudor house with fancy driveway.. to be careful with the old messy boiler, put down dropclothes, cardboards and old plywoods on driveway.
> All scrapper had to do is to back up to the iron pile and load it up to his truck. What did he do? Fxxking stopped short like 20 ft from the pile and asked my helper to load the truck, dragging all the messy sections to the truck. Unknowned,I was in basement working til my helper told me after he was done, asked him why didn't he tell the scrapper to back up more? Didn't think of doing that, blew my top and told him go home and have my dad deal with him. Sure enough, my dad told him if he want the job, on your hands and knees to clean all the muck off the driveway without pay. He did.
> Fired the white scrapper, been using the cleaner and more polite black scrapper ever since.


Was replacing a 80 gallon once and had another plumber stop by with dolly.

His head was in another place this day (personal problems). He forgot the dolly at shop.

I said ok wait here and we'll slide it out of the house on a drop cloth. When I returned, he had the wh at the front door. I said how'd you get it here?

Oh, I just pivoted it back n forth ALL the way down the hallway into the foyer, up to the door.

House had low lighting so you could not really see anything until you shined a flaslight. 100 year old wood floors dented all the way! I said when they call n complain its gotta be taken care of.

They never called!

I can say one of the best plumbers I ever worked with, just not that day!


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

89plumbum said:


> Was replacing a 80 gallon once and had another plumber stop by with dolly.
> 
> His head was in another place this day (personal problems). He forgot the dolly at shop.
> 
> ...


You got lucky!!


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

I profit around 4500.00
I never said that is what all new work brings EVERY PLUMBER. , but it is what I charge. I am not the cheapest. There are guys that will do it for about 1500.00 profit. Pisses me off!! Just think how glorious the profit could be if plumbers bit down and stood firm. A lot of busy plumbers around here have a lot of homes going and look at it as a quantity game. 

.i can work a 1/3 of there time and make around the same profit as them. I can pay my supply bill on time and work at my own pace. Pay my 2 guys and let them get a lot of hours. 

When jobs are slow I can still pay guys full weeks and live off my profits. Just cause the other guy makes 5% doesemt mean it is the best game plan, nor does my percentage., but I would rather charge accordingly to protect my guys, my family. And most of all MY TRADE!


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

justin said:


> I profit around 4500.00
> I never said that is what all new work brings EVERY PLUMBER. , but it is what I charge. I am not the cheapest. There are guys that will do it for about 1500.00 profit. Pisses me off!! Just think how glorious the profit could be if plumbers bit down and stood firm. A lot of busy plumbers around here have a lot of homes going and look at it as a quantity game.
> 
> !


and this is what you put in you pocket after all direct (material, labor, tax. permits)and indirect (insurances, employee benifits, office wages, utilities, etc...) casts are paid?
If you can do 60% net profit in new construction you need to teach all of us how you are doing that.


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## ShaneP (Nov 20, 2011)

I too would like to see profit like that on a new home plumbing job or anything else for that matter.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

When a builder calls and asks me to price plumbing for a new home, I don't even bother anymore. Way, way too cheap in my hood. These plumbers do it for peanuts. Then you gotta wait forever to get paid, if they actually do pay. No thanks, I keep going to the Mr & Mrs Smiths residenses, & doing service work, & get my pay that day. If I cut my prices by 50%, I'm still not as cheap as some of these new house plumbers. They can have all the headaches. I just wonder if they figure into their bids, the collection agent's bill.:yes:


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

Don The Plumber said:


> When a builder calls and asks me to price plumbing for a new home, I don't even bother anymore. Way, way too cheap in my hood. These plumbers do it for peanuts. Then you gotta wait forever to get paid, if they actually do pay. No thanks, I keep going to the Mr & Mrs Smiths residenses, & doing service work, & get my pay that day. If I cut my prices by 50%, I'm still not as cheap as some of these new house plumbers. They can have all the headaches. I just wonder if they figure into their bids, the collection agent's bill.:yes:


Let them learn the hard way.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

MikeBKNY78 said:


> So. I'm still new at this but I put in a bid for a new house. 2 and 1/2 bathroom, kitchen. Water heater, stove and furnace for gas. I bid 19K and GC thinks I'm out of my mind. Am I? Said he has a plumber who can do it for 10k.


Does your 19k include you providing fixtures? What piping material does your bid include versus the other plumber? Without knowing more details I don't understand how anyone who's already chimed in on this thread could have done so. You don't expect a doctor to diagnose your problems without getting additional information, do ya?


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

grandpa said:


> Are you prepared to front the costs for the job and wait weeks...possibly months....to get any payments??


If you word your proposal properly & with a reasonable draw schedule that doesn't happen, especially on residential. The only time I've experienced payment delays is on commercial work.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Radium said:


> I would say You will meet or beat the other plumbers quote if he showed it. If he doesn't show the quote he is full of it. 10k is way to low. But -Just- honor your quote on that one house, though. See how needy the builder is during the process. Those low ballers want you there every second of the every day.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PlumbingZone


How can you blindly make that statement? You have NO idea what the op or competitor's bids include ( fixtures or just material & labor?, water service tie-in?, sewer tie-in?) I swear, sometimes the people on here just like to hear themselves talk like big-shots.


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## coast to coast (Feb 17, 2012)

Widdershins said:


> This is a fallacy.
> 
> Unless the GC is building the home on spec and doing his own financing, the GC always marks up your bill before submitting it to the HO -- Which means he or she is losing money on lowball bids.


Ok so he marks up my bill . Well by beating me down 9 grands he just improved his mark up didn't he . Let's do the math 19000 marked up say 10 percent he makes 1900 . 9000 plus 1900 = 10900 someone just helped there bottom line , and proved that he owns u . So U get your foot in the door at a 9000 g loss . What your plan for getting your price back up ? I say screw him . Just walk from a dirt bag builder and would have starved before I'd work for him again . Although before I starve I'll just go get a job . After I walked who starts calling me ? One of his partners And since I stood my ground he knows not to even think of trying to play games . I'm still new at running a business but I thinking if I can build it with a non dirt bag client base then I have a better chance of making it and less headaches because I can't stand low balling weasels . Call mr ten g's and let one of his under paid employees do the work for u and when the water is pouring out of the ceiling 2 days after the ho moves in Don't call me throw that one by him . Lol


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## PunkRockPlumber (Mar 26, 2012)

mccmech said:


> How can you blindly make that statement? You have NO idea what the op or competitor's bids include ( fixtures or just material & labor?, water service tie-in?, sewer tie-in?) I swear, sometimes the people on here just like to hear themselves talk like big-shots.


My bid included fixtures, material, and labor. Water and sewer are already to the home. It is being demo'd and a second floor is being added. My bid included copper for water and PVC for DWV.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Bidding is like talking about the big fish that got away

Sent from my miniature laptop


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

Associated Plum said:


> and this is what you put in you pocket after all direct (material, labor, tax. permits)and indirect (insurances, employee benifits, office wages, utilities, etc...) casts are paid?
> If you can do 60% net profit in new construction you need to teach all of us how you are doing that.


Bear in mind, I get beat out a lot. But, I refuse to work for peanuts!!! We bust our ass and have the badge that goes along with it. I really don't see it being hard to net 60%. Remember , I supply only piping and labor. Pex and PVC. No fix . I only do about average 3-4 houses a month, I do them. I don't hire out.. Me and 1 guy on house. I use service to fill in. I refuse to make less than a thousand dollars a day if I put on 10 hours. I suppose I could be blowing and going by dropping my prices, but why should you have to work 2 times harder to make same profit? 



I refuse to bring market down !! I can work 7 days a week if I wanted and I have had this same attitude the first day I jumped out feet first on my own. 

My old boss who created me once told me " JUSTIN ,DON'T EVER GIVE IT AWAY, MAKE THEM PAY WHAT YOUR WORTH OR YOU WILL BE TOO FAR IN WHEN YOU REALIZE YOU CAN'T GET OUT" 

He was a very successful man and has never once gave it away. He took off for a whole year cause he wanted to do yard work. Wtf!!! Who the hell takes off a year? We worked in his yard and built a shop, dug a pool and didn't do a lick of plumbing for a year. I want to be able to do that . I've got a long way though.


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## PinkPlumber (May 20, 2012)

Where can we get a badge?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

PinkPlumber said:


> Where can we get a badge?


Me too

All I ever got were lumps

Sent from my miniature laptop


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

justin said:


> really don't see it being hard to net 60%. Remember , I supply only piping and labor. Pex and PVC. No fix .
> I only do about average 3-4 houses a month, I do them. I don't hire out.. Me and 1 guy on house. I use service to fill in. I refuse to make less than a thousand dollars a day if I put on 10 hours. I suppose I could be blowing and going by dropping my prices, but why should you have to work 2 times harder to make same profit?


I have a feeling there is a lot folks on here that would disagree with that statement. 60% gross profit is understandable. but not net.

I for one would like to know how you are doing this. If possible could you use the job listed in the original thread and by using percentages show us how you are coming up with a 60% net profit?

For the life of me I cannot understand how you can cover labor + benefits, material +taxes, permits, licenses fees, insurance (liability, workers comp, health, dental), fuel, utiltiies, etc... on 40% of the billable amount of a job.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Associated Plum said:


> I have a feeling there is a lot folks on here that would disagree with that statement. 60% gross profit is understandable. but not net.
> 
> I for one would like to know how you are doing this. If possible could you use the job listed in the original thread and by using percentages show us how you are coming up with a 60% net profit?
> 
> For the life of me I cannot understand how you can cover labor + benefits, material +taxes, permits, licenses fees, insurance (liability, workers comp, health, dental), fuel, utiltiies, etc... on 40% of the billable amount of a job.


He could do it if his base price was high.....
Some jobs I do are maybe 25% net profit ... Still adds up fast if the sale was a high price

So % really means nothing

It how much total cash left over..... Do a job for 30k and at 25% you clear 7,500

Do a lower price job and you need 1,000 % markup to hit the same profit

Sent from my miniature laptop


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> He could do it if his base price was high.....
> Some jobs I do are maybe 25% net profit ... Still adds up fast if the sale was a high price


I can see 25%, but the quote is in red below.

Different states , different prices. 2.5 bath no gas is around 15 fixtures. I live in Weatherford Texas and I can do that for 8175.00 no fixtures included. That is all utilities stubbed out 2' from exterior wall. I charge almost 600 an opening( sink 1 opening, tub 1 opening) has is usually around the same per opening. All water pex, sewer PVC and gas black. 

I am expensive at that price !! I get beat out all day long. But I have a lot of contractors that know what kind of job they will get, and that's why they use us. 

My profit for a job like that is around 5000.00
Can do it in 5 total days. 1 rough in, 4 top out, and 1 to sit customer/contractor supplied fixtures. No warranty on fixtures! 

I am sure some Texas guys can agree to this price. You need to find similar competition and compare apples to apples.

8,175.00
-5,000.00 stated as net profit in another post, which is after all bills are paid
3,175.00
-1,000.00 material 
2,175.00
-5 days although it show 6 day broken down.
435.00 a day for labor and all over head (direct and indirect)

I still don't see it, but I am just a plumber form Arkansas


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Associated Plum said:


> I can see 25%, but the quote is in red below.
> 
> Different states , different prices. 2.5 bath no gas is around 15 fixtures. I live in Weatherford Texas and I can do that for 8175.00 no fixtures included. That is all utilities stubbed out 2' from exterior wall. I charge almost 600 an opening( sink 1 opening, tub 1 opening) has is usually around the same per opening. All water pex, sewer PVC and gas black.
> 
> ...


Now I see what you are talking about... It doesn't add up

Sent from my miniature laptop


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> He could do it if his base price was high.....
> Some jobs I do are maybe 25% net profit ... Still adds up fast if the sale was a high price
> 
> So % really means nothing
> ...


 
I totally agree. Too much emphasis I think is put on percentage. I don't care who you are, or how anal you keep your books, percentages can change in a heartbeat.

Example..... Old school gets 30k job done, puts $7500 in the bank, pulls out of bank parking lot, & his transmission fails. Get a tow, & a bill from trans shop for $3500, & loss of work. Now how much is your percentage?


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Things happen.

I agree it is how much you have left, but that is after all or a percentage spread out over all your jobs is left and not just the direct costs related to that job.

I still don't see how you can net $5,000 on $8,200 plumbing a new house and still pay all direct and indirect costs.

If I am wrong in the way I am looking at this example will someone please correct me and let me know what I am doing wrong?


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

Associated Plum said:


> Things happen.
> 
> I agree it is how much you have left, but that is after all or a percentage spread out over all your jobs is left and not just the direct costs related to that job.
> 
> ...


Maybe it just seems like I am making that. Don't think so hard. maybe less maybe more, but I am not doing them for free. You are probly looking at it in way more detail than me. Let's just say that I am making more than the low baller.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

justin said:


> Maybe it just seems like I am making that. Don't think so hard. maybe less maybe more, but I am not doing them for free. You are probly looking at it in way more detail than me. Let's just say that I am making more than the low baller.


If his post is more detailed than the way you re looking at it, then you need a lot more detail. 

I think you are on the "maybe less" side of the equation.


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> If his post is more detailed than the way you re looking at it, then you need a lot more detail.
> 
> I think you are on the "maybe less" side of the equation.


Yep


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