# Experienced heating/boiler guys please reply



## AndersenPlumbing (Jan 23, 2010)

Okay I did a service call on an older heating system. They had no heat on the first floor. After trouble shooting, I found a bad circulating pump on the return side of the down stairs (1st floor) loop.

I went to my supply house and crossed it over and got a new pump

I retuned and installed the new pump, verified direction of flow and installed the new pump. I tightened the lower bolts and with the top barely snug, I cracked the lower isolation valve and bleed off the air and let it trickle while I tightened up the top bolts. Then I opened the top valve and turned the pump on. 

4.5 hours later I get a call from the same customer. A cast iron radiator on the second floor of the house blew out a 1.25"x6" hole out the side. I worked on the 1st floor loop while the 2nd floor was operational the whole time . 

The customer is now blaming me for the radiator issue. When I left the system was at 12psi and operating fine with hot water coming back to the boiler on the lower loop. I never touched anything on the upper loop.


She blames us, can anyone explain how it could be related to my work?



I will share a link to this thread with her, I want to reinforce her that this was not my fault. 


Experienced guys, please tell me if it's possible to be my fault or if it isn't.


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

I do not see how it was your fault. When you enter someone's home to work on their heating system, you assume their pipes and radiators can hold water. The radiator cannot see excessive pressure due to the fact that there is a relief valve that will discharge if there is excessive pressure. You cannot be expected to babysit each radiator for the rest of the day upon a circulator replacement. I am a NYC licensed plumber and can state this on my letterhead if you wish.


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## Plumb26 (May 18, 2013)

Guy goes in to have his oil changed. All is well. He gets home to discover a flat tire. Is it the mechanic's fault........ NO!
The above post is right on point.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Sounds like it froze and cracked to me! How do you know she didn't turn that zone off or really low overnight? And it turned into a block of ice. We all know how great the insulation is in old homes, if there even is any. And they would always put the radiators in front of old drafty Windows. A really cold night could do that if the heat was set very low or off in a drafty house. I have never heard of working on a low pressure boiler crack a cast iron rad ever. I have worked on hundreds of homes and buildings that have them. As NYC stated the max pressure that system will ever see is 30lbs before the relief blows off. Even if you left the bypass open on the pressure reducing valve the relief would have blown. Unless someone put the wrong relief valve in with a higher pressure ( wich I have never seen) or the relief was plugged, or it was stuck shut. And the bypass was left open. I highly doubt this is the case. Call your insurance company now and let them know whats going on and that you think the people are being dishonest and are trying to commit fraud. They will send an adjuster to go and inspect the system and the damage. Should clear you of wrongdoing. If the place has Cast iron radiators they have to be old. How long do people expect things to last? Nothing mechanical lasts forever. Could just be coincidental that the same day you worked on a completely different zone in the system, that was the day their ancient cast iron radiator failed. I have seen cracked 50 year old radiators before, it happens just due to age. But never heard of or witnessed one crack or "blow a hole in one during air purging" or afterwards. This is a first. Do you have any pictures? I would like to see this hole. Maybe you can compromise with the homeowner? Install a new radiator labor free if they pay for the material? Sometimes that's easier than arguments and saves face with the customer. No matter what actually happened they're going to blame you. If they are un willing to negotiate a solution like that then, do like I said call your insurance company (they are always on your side) and give a lawyer a ring to find out what he/she thinks.


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## CTs2p2 (Dec 6, 2011)

Yup exactly on the ice, it's the only thing I've ever seen pop a hole in a radiator... Besides a sledge hammer.

Sounds to me like it took about 4.5 hours for the heat you got going on the first floor to thaw the heat on the second floor..

Look your honest home owner straight in the eye and ask them what really happened to their radiator..they know.


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## boatcaptplumber (Jan 27, 2012)

We did a job in october put it a weil McClain Cga boiler into a system that was allegedly winterized ...late in the year..on a 2 zone system. once installed, went thru the motions of filling and bleeding with no problems.....except for one cast iron radiator on the second floor. turns out, even though they thought the system was winterized, the gate valve some hack put on years ago broke shut so that radiator never drained completely. once the valve was replaced and system was refilled a slight leak was discovered from a cracked section which quickly turned into a blow out . you know as well as i do a lot more then 12 lbs of pressure is needed to compromise a cast iron radiator to create a hole. a hard freeze will do it. or a hammer strike. you never know what went on before OR after you were there. 

i wish you luck with your investigation


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## smudge (Jan 19, 2010)

Frozen. No discount on new radiator.


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## jtplumber (Jan 21, 2014)

Had exact same thing happen the first of December. I eventually won argument by the homeowner and HOA watching a video on radiators by triangle tube. I'll search for link and put it on here. I just swapped out 12 more for them two weeks ago. Good luck. Don't let it make you question yourself. Sounds like you know what your doing. I lost a lot of sleep wondering if maybe I "did" so something wrong.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

smudge said:


> Frozen. No discount on new radiator.


 if they fuss just add a charge of 10%


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

I was just thinking after reading everyone else's posts. Even if the 2nd floor was circulating when you got there its more than likely a monoflow system if its got cast iron rads. So that rad could definitely have been frozen before you even arrived! The water could still circulate through the loop and return hot to the boiler by passing the frozen cracked 2nd floor rad. This can happen any time in a monoflow system especially if that one rad had some air in it, stopped circulating through that rad, that room got really cold and the rad cracked. Just like stated above, first floor now gets hot after you fix it and thaws frozen rad. No way anything else could have broken that cast like your describing.


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## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

I like the cracked rad theory and agree that its the most likely scenario, but one might also consider the possibility of a defective expansion tank combined with a stuck/excessively high rated relief valve. Just putting out another possibility. I used to get lots of calls to thaw frozen systems and would fix the component that failed to have the heat off (circulator, control, whatever) , then fix the visible freeze splits in the piping, then fire up the system and possibly find a few more system leaks to attend once circulation & pressure was restored. Hanging out and checking the return temps from any zones you can access is time well spent. Obviously a monoflow system could hide its secrets for a while if an isolated rad or more were affected.

Its good practice to check over the system in its entirely (though typically just in the boiler room) even when fixing an obvious deficiency, for all the times there's more than one thing wrong and you have to make another trip out you'll be glad you did. Catching all the issues at once generates more profit per call, and you don't end up getting the fisheye from them when "that thing broke just after you left":blink:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

CaberTosser said:


> I like the cracked rad theory and agree that its the most likely scenario, but one might also consider the possibility of a defective expansion tank combined with a stuck/excessively high rated relief valve. Just putting out another possibility. I used to get lots of calls to thaw frozen systems and would fix the component that failed to have the heat off (circulator, control, whatever) , then fix the visible freeze splits in the piping, then fire up the system and possibly find a few more system leaks to attend once circulation & pressure was restored. Hanging out and checking the return temps from any zones you can access is time well spent. Obviously a monoflow system could hide its secrets for a while if an isolated rad or more were affected.
> 
> *Its good practice to check over the system in its entirely (though typically just in the boiler room) even when fixing an obvious deficiency, for all the times there's more than one thing wrong and you have to make another trip out you'll be glad you did. Catching all the issues at once generates more profit per call, and you don't end up getting the fisheye from them when "that thing broke just after you left"*:blink:


I doubt it was anything but freezing that caused the radiator to split...

If the pressure actually did go high enough to split the radiator you'd probably see the pressure on the tri-indicator to have assumed and entirely different calibration....:laughing:

It is an excellent practice to look beyond the boiler room when servicing a home... Especially with a monoflo system...


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## ]3ones (Jun 9, 2011)

You can't zone a monoflow system unless you have 2 monoflow systems as secondary zones off a primary loop. The guy probably threw a marble ash tray across the room at his wife missed and hit a worn down spot at the bottom of the rad and cracked the cast lol now he's pissed and trying to get a free fix


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## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

Monoflow systems are exceedingly rare in my vicinity; I've only encountered two in my 25 years on the wrenches. I see about one monoflow system for every two unicorns or sasquatch I happen across.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Every really old house I encounter around here is monoflow, if its not still steam.


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## AndersenPlumbing (Jan 23, 2010)

From my customer in regards to this. 

"A plumbing engineer that works with my daughter walked through it with me. The unusually higher heat from when you asked for it to be turned up (it was already on the high side) probably kicked it over the edge. I saw that you had not turned it back down after the repair. Whats done is done now and there is no going back."

She's referring to me asking her to turn up the thermostat on the second floor so I could compare voltages in the pump relays on the system to trouble shoot the no heat call for the first floor.


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## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

I had 3 cast iron radiators crack due to the cold weather last week.


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## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

Unless you didn't purge air out of the system. Air traveled to the highest point 2nd floor froze and split??


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Nope, not possible, frozen for sure... what kind of radiator is it?.. top or bottom feed? Former gravity system changed over to forced flo setup??


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

rjbphd said:


> Nope, not possible, frozen for sure... what kind of radiator is it?.. top or bottom feed? Former gravity system changed over to forced flo setup??


RJ it's good to see you back... :thumbup:


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

Quick!! Someone go get Tex!! We're getting the band back together!!


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

AndersenPlumbing said:


> From my customer in regards to this.
> 
> "A plumbing engineer that works with my daughter walked through it with me. The unusually higher heat from when you asked for it to be turned up (it was already on the high side) probably kicked it over the edge. I saw that you had not turned it back down after the repair. Whats done is done now and there is no going back."
> 
> She's referring to me asking her to turn up the thermostat on the second floor so I could compare voltages in the pump relays on the system to trouble shoot the no heat call for the first floor.


The customer is getting obnoxious, and you should go on the offensive and in light of the situation, have a laugh if possible while you are at it.
I would ask for a formal letter from the engineer stating his findings so you can corroborate them with his peers. If there really is a licensed engineer willing to put this on paper, we can easily reduce him to shreds and publish it in trade and engineering magazines.
Contact your lawyer for better advice than we can give as far as documentation to cover yourself now.
I have respect for a good engineer who has a grip of real life situations in the field. ZL700 is an example of such.
Two years ago, however, I disemboweled an engineer who sent a letter objecting to an island sink vent that I installed and the plumbing inspector passed, using his original document as a template.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Yeah because everyone knows the thermostat in the room makes the water in the boiler hotter! (Sarcasm) I always thought it just turned on the circulator pump all these years. Glad I read this diagnosis from an engineer that obviously knows nothing about how a hydronic heating system works. Ask the engineer why the cast iron boiler didn't crack from "excessive heat"? But the radiator made of the same material two floors away from the boiler, Obviously receiving colder water than the boiler was producing cracked. Then ask him for other examples of his theory from other buildings. If the cast iron cracked from excessive heat, I cant imagine that the copper would have survived that delivered the excessively hot water. This guy is talking out of his a$$, or this lady is making up stories.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Redwood said:


> RJ it's good to see you back... :thumbup:










It's good to have our resident boiler guy on the job.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> It's good to have our resident boiler guy on the job.


Yea... Even if he doesn't listen.... :laughing:


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

Go this forum link for all the Heating Experts

http://www.heatinghelp.com/Forum


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