# Getting a rash of bad heaters



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

We are busy right now but in a way that is not popular
with the customers...

I am getting a rash of leaking *bradford white heaters*
all of them are about 4- 5 years old.... I ask the customer 
one question and the only thing that is constant with all of them 
....... they all have a *water softener* in the system.........

if their is no softener in the system the heaters around here last an
 average of 8 to 15 years , of course they are choked full of lime....but they still work....


changed out a bradford *********** vent with a huge leak 
in the tank yesterday...the unit was hooked up directly with copper female adaptors onto the dialectric nipples on the heater.....water pressure about 75 lbs...

just wondering how many leakers every has and have you taken notice wether their is a softener in the system??

Since 2008 I have been doing a little experiment and have been installing and hooking up all heaters with *brass craft black quick connects .....*


I took one out last week with quick connects on it that was a 1985 sears unit.....lookes like hell, but lasted forever.....


Maybe if I am still alive in 10 years I will have my answer..:laughing:


----------



## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> We are busy right now but in a way that is not popular
> with the customers...
> 
> I am getting a rash of leaking *bradford white heaters*
> ...


 
I seem to get warranty water jobs in a rash. One week its Bradford Whites, the next its AO Smith, then State, and Rheem. The only heater I get calls for everyday that I tell them "I am sorry I can sell you a real nice Bradford White" is Whirlpool.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Braided quick connects connected to dielectric nipples provides for the best galvanic separation. It's also the most likely to burst/leak.

There is a trade off.



Master Mark said:


> We are busy right now but in a way that is not popular
> with the customers...
> 
> I am getting a rash of leaking *bradford white heaters*
> ...


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

*Master Mark*

I like to install Rheem/Ruud. I am not seeing any problems other than the usual leaking heaters. I like Rheem because they come with a 6 yr warranty on tank and parts. Other W/H's usually have 1 or 2 yr warranty on parts.


----------



## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> I like to install Rheem/Ruud. I am not seeing any problems other than the usual leaking heaters. I like Rheem because they come with a 6 yr warranty on tank and parts. *Other W/H's usually have 1 or 2 yr warranty on parts.*


 
Huh? State, A.O. Smith and Bradford White, offer a 6 year warranty on tanks and parts.


----------



## alexleonardme (Sep 14, 2010)

*Hey*

:thumbup:I'm new here, just thought I'd say what's up. How are all of you?:thumbup:


----------



## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

My usual failed heater is A.O. Smith. I made the mistake of putting a few of them in and am grateful that I'm almost past the warranty on all of them.

I've never much liked BW because to me they seem as if they're made like "hardware-store" heaters. 

I've put in a lot of Rheems and have never had to replace one, and seldom had to clean the lime out of them because they just handle it, usually until the end of their life. My own is about 12 years old in this high-lime area and I've never had to touch it. Typically, with a family, the heaters need a new lower element and cleaned about every 3 - 5 years.

I've cleaned a lot of 5-year-old or less BW heaters.

Typically, I install heaters with SS flexes, and I usually use the higher-quality ones with more insulation. (VR82 . . . something, IIRC.)


----------



## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Herk said:


> My usual failed heater is A.O. Smith. I made the mistake of putting a few of them in and am grateful that I'm almost past the warranty on all of them.
> 
> I've never much liked BW because to me they seem as if they're made like "hardware-store" heaters.
> 
> ...


I only install about 15-20 waterheaters a year (for the last 11 years). About 90% gas and about 98% of them are A.O. Smith.

I have yet to have a single FVIR problem, not one gas valve, burner, or thermo couple problem. 

Only about 10% or less of the tanks have failed before the warranty period.

We have good water quality, and above average pressure.

No expansion tanks on water heaters in MA. Open systems for the most part.


And yes I'm knocking on wood.......


----------



## WaterHeaterMan (Sep 14, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> We are busy right now but in a way that is not popular
> with the customers...
> 
> I am getting a rash of leaking *bradford white heaters*
> ...


All water heaters have either an Aluminum or Magnesium anode rod(s) in them that are sacrificial to any other metal in the tank. These rods prolong the life of the tank. Many 10 year warranty water heaters will have 2 of these rods in them. We found that depending on the amount of salt used in the softening process these rods were dissipated much faster than in systems not using salt. Once the anode has dissipated, the tank won’t last much longer. I would suggest offering your customer using water softeners a biannual inspection and replacement of this rod if necessary. The $150.00 they spend on your call will will be cheap compared to replacing the water heater every 5 to 8 years. For many years water heater manufacturers limited their warranties if connected to a water softner.


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

WaterHeaterMan,
I removed the duplicate post. You musta hit submit twice or something. No biggie. 

Glad to see a manufacturer represented here.

Welcome:thumbsup:


----------



## alexleonardme (Sep 14, 2010)

*Bradford White*

All the way:thumbup:


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

alexleonardme said:


> All the way:thumbup:


All the way what?


----------



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*still have the rash*



WaterHeaterMan said:


> All water heaters have either an Aluminum or Magnesium anode rod(s) in them that are sacrificial to any other metal in the tank. These rods prolong the life of the tank. Many 10 year warranty water heaters will have 2 of these rods in them. We found that depending on the amount of salt used in the softening process these rods were dissipated much faster than in systems not using salt. Once the anode has dissipated, the tank won’t last much longer. I would suggest offering your customer using water softeners a biannual inspection and replacement of this rod if necessary. The $150.00 they spend on your call will will be cheap compared to replacing the water heater every 5 to 8 years. For many years water heater manufacturers limited their warranties if connected to a water softner.


I would really like more info about how the soft water eats the hell out of these heaters.......

I believe its conductivity,,,, sodium in a tank with two peices of bi-metal metal sticking down in them creates some sort of "battery" or whatever it is..........electrylsis..,,,, galvanic corrosion, you name it...... 

 basically the damn thing becomes possessed...:laughing::laughing:

if could convince people to change out their rods every 2 years , that in itself would be a miracle.... 
they dont want to spend an extra cent on them in the first place ..... no matter how or what you state...... they almost cannot comprehend what the hell you are talking about....

all they want to see is hot water commming out of the faucet out of the left handle marked ......Hot.........



My brass craft connectors seem to be the best solution 
and they are no worse than the SS flexible 3/8 lines we all use to toilets, and faucets every day...

I will let you know in 10 years if this site still has people still comming here ...


----------



## CSINEV (Aug 6, 2010)

This is true a magnesium anode will go faster then an aluminum one if a softener is hooked up with the heater and the hardness stetting is turned way up. I see this a lot in Vegas. People who have heaters with aluminum anodes will have heaters last longer if a softener is used. Bradford white only uses magnesium.


----------



## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

CSINEV said:


> This is true a magnesium anode will go faster then an aluminum one if a softener is hooked up with the heater and the hardness stetting is turned way up. I see this a lot in Vegas. People who have heaters with aluminum anodes will have heaters last longer if a softener is used. Bradford white only uses magnesium.


Well first we get a guy that claims only Rheem/Rhudd has 6 year warranty on parts and tank, which is false. Now you claim Bradford White uses only magnesium anode rods. Which is false. Yes the heaters they sell are equipped with magnesium anode rods but they do offer aluminum anode rods for those that have sulfur issues with their water. I been installing Bradford Whites at my mothers for years with out an anode rod due to the hydrogen sulfate smell, The last Bradford White Heater I installed has an aluminum anode rod in it from the manufacture, and its going on 9 years old. Which is 2 years longer than it did with out an anode rod. The aluminum anode rod still produces a bit of a sulfur smell but no where near as bad as a magnesium anode rode does.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Bottom line,


They are making these heaters to last just beyond the warranty.


----------



## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

It is a numbers game.All of the manufacturers play the numbers.We have a rash with each manufacturer right now it seems the state select heater has control of the numbers game.
Personally we install the Rheem Pro series with an 8 year warranty I am anxious to see how the 4 year warranty extension kits affect the heater.


----------



## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

+1 on using aluminum annode rods with water softeners.

My boss is looking to carry American instead of Bradford after a lot of warranty change outs recently. Bradford has started to collect failed tanks instead of just warranty stickers so hopefully they can look into the matter.


----------



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*I agee with u*



Richard Hilliar said:


> It is a numbers game.All of the manufacturers play the numbers.We have a rash with each manufacturer right now it seems the state select heater has control of the numbers game.
> Personally we install the Rheem Pro series with an 8 year warranty I am anxious to see how the 4 year warranty extension kits affect the heater.


The states are the absolute worst on the market followed by a.o. smith....:yes:


Rheem seems to be doing something right , 
becasue I am not getting the shi/load of warranty calls that I am seeing with the Bradfords..

I have very rarely had to mess with a Rheem in the last 6 months, but I am doing a load of Bradfords from about the 2006 era..

I did a 10 year Bradford white yesterday with the softener next to it,,,, went out in 4 years... I did the
felx connectors on top and now I see that I should have offered them an alluminum rod in the unit for another $50 bucks

I am going to look into getting the alluminum rods on hand for the next unit if this keeps up..



now add that ICON valve on the Bradfords troubles, 
which in my opinion it probably is going to be a nightmare 
in 5 years from now when those thermopile couplings begin to fail, 


and it makes the Rheem and the Pro look soooo much , much better.


----------



## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

WaterHeaterMan said:


> All water heaters have either an Aluminum or Magnesium anode rod(s) in them that are sacrificial to any other metal in the tank. These rods prolong the life of the tank. Many 10 year warranty water heaters will have 2 of these rods in them. We found that depending on the amount of salt used in the softening process these rods were dissipated much faster than in systems not using salt. Once the anode has dissipated, the tank won’t last much longer. I would suggest offering your customer using water softeners a biannual inspection and replacement of this rod if necessary. The $150.00 they spend on your call will will be cheap compared to replacing the water heater every 5 to 8 years. For many years water heater manufacturers limited their warranties if connected to a water softner.[/QUOTE
> 
> Lets see. $150.00, bi annually = $300.00.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

He probably meant to say Biennial which is once every two years.


----------



## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

We always change the anode rod when a softener is there. I recommend moving the salt tank away from the water heaters. The salt air rots the outside cover and if the electric is exposed will rot the electrical connections. Some clients for some strange reason remove the plates and expose the wire.

We do not have many Bradford Whites around this area. One supply house went to Bradford White a year ago and now is very sorry they switched from Rheem. BW is a pain in the ass to deal with. I can call Rheem and have a part shipped the next day at their nickel. I can also call Rheem and request 350 dollars for a warranty change out and receive that money in 90 days. Blow your supplier off and call Rheem direct to receive the extra dollars.


----------



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*350.00????*



Richard Hilliar said:


> We always change the anode rod when a softener is there. . I can also call Rheem and request 350 dollars for a warranty change out and receive that money in 90 days. Blow your supplier off and call Rheem direct to receive the extra dollars.


 
well, now I know about the anode rods....have a few comming
my way this week for 18 bucks each .....they really ought to
give them to me for all the trouble its been.....my bradford white salesman
is acting totally clueless about this anode rod issue and how they affect
the life of an heater with a softener....

uhhhhh...its the first we have heard of it......




of course those Rheem anode rods are hell to change unless 
you got a deep socket wrench and a cheater bar with you 
to get them out......they are nasty to fool with...


now you are telling me that Rheem will give you $350 for 
changeing out a heater less than a year old??? 
I cant even get 125 out of any one of them ... 
but I have my own ways of getting even on them on 
warranties...one way or the other:yes::yes:...



how are you able to talk them into $350.00
I am buying at least 30 heaters a month, and they
dont show me love like that


----------



## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

I carry this plus all my unused SAE sockets, extensions, and adapters.

http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-t...s/1-2-half-inch-extendable-ratchet-98831.html

Takes care of anodes in 75gal water heaters with 1 1/6" socket.


----------



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

JK949 said:


> I carry this plus all my unused SAE sockets, extensions, and adapters.
> 
> http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-t...s/1-2-half-inch-extendable-ratchet-98831.html
> 
> Takes care of anodes in 75gal water heaters with 1 1/6" socket.


 

I had not thought of harbor freight to look for one of those...

most all of the stuff from that place is junk,. 

but I am sure it would suffice for a while before it or the socket snapped:laughing:


----------



## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> I had not thought of harbor freight to look for one of those...
> 
> most all of the stuff from that place is junk,.
> 
> but I am sure it would suffice for a while before it or the socket snapped:laughing:


 I bought some metal cutting sawzall blades from Harbor Freight, about a month ago. I set the blade on a piece of galv pipe and started cutting. The only thing I cut off, were the teeth on the blade.:furious: Total junk is an understatement. Yea, I thought I could save a few bucks, but as usual, I should know better. Never again.


----------



## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> well, now I know about the anode rods....have a few comming
> my way this week for 18 bucks each .....they really ought to
> give them to me for all the trouble its been.....my bradford white salesman
> is acting totally clueless about this anode rod issue and how they affect
> ...


 
Yes I do. I call Rheem directly . I explain I have a guy lost on that job and a second man to deliver the heater and I am losing x amount of revenue to replace a defective heater. I cannot change out a heater for 75 dollars. They give me a reference number to put on the bill I send to them that allows the extra money paid.

You are correct about the deep socket and breaker bar to get those anodes out. A six point socket works better then a 12 point socket. I have a 2 foot and 4 foot breaker bar to help me remove thier anode rods.Easier on my back and belly muscles.


----------



## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

The abs are no longer what they used to be.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

:yes: That is due to the increased conductivity of the water after the ion exchange. More conductivity means more aggressive galvanic corrosion on the anode.



WaterHeaterMan said:


> All water heaters have either an Aluminum or Magnesium anode rod(s) in them that are sacrificial to any other metal in the tank. These rods prolong the life of the tank. Many 10 year warranty water heaters will have 2 of these rods in them. *We found that depending on the amount of salt used in the softening process these rods were dissipated much faster than in systems not using salt.* Once the anode has dissipated, the tank won’t last much longer. I would suggest offering your customer using water softeners a biannual inspection and replacement of this rod if necessary. The $150.00 they spend on your call will will be cheap compared to replacing the water heater every 5 to 8 years. For many years water heater manufacturers limited their warranties if connected to a water softner.


----------



## mraven64 (Feb 18, 2010)

*Bradford WHite*

I work in Technical Support with Bradford White. I would be more than happy to speak to you about the issues you are having. Please feel free to contact me at 800-334-3393.

Thank You,

Mike Raven 
Bradford White Tech Support


----------



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*send me some free stuff*



mraven64 said:


> I work in Technical Support with Bradford White. I would be more than happy to speak to you about the issues you are having. Please feel free to contact me at 800-334-3393.
> 
> Thank You,
> 
> ...


all I need are better anode rods or a whole bunch of free ones. sent to me 2 dozen would be nice..... I am buying 3 alluminum ones to keep in my truck at 20 each and I will probably change them out on units with softeners..... most of them are from around 2006-07 
so far.....

Might be able to make an upgrade sale I suppose and recoup the 20 bucks....

I talked to a Rmeem rep today too, he stated that it shows that RMEEMS lineing must certainly be of a higher quality than what the Bradfords are bakeing onto the steel in their heaters.......

I had to agree with him because I have not changed out a Rheem heater under warranty in quite a long time..... not this year that I can recall 

But I did state that their power vent heaters still sucked...and bradfords were better:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> Well first we get a guy that claims only Rheem/Rhudd has 6 year warranty on parts and tank, which is false. Now you claim Bradford White uses only magnesium anode rods. Which is false. Yes the heaters they sell are equipped with magnesium anode rods but they do offer aluminum anode rods for those that have sulfur issues with their water. I been installing Bradford Whites at my mothers for years with out an anode rod due to the hydrogen sulfate smell, The last Bradford White Heater I installed has an aluminum anode rod in it from the manufacture, and its going on 9 years old. Which is 2 years longer than it did with out an anode rod. The aluminum anode rod still produces a bit of a sulfur smell but no where near as bad as a magnesium anode rode does.


I never said Rheem/Ruud is only mfg. that offers 6 yr. warranty. I wrote I like them because they do.


----------



## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> I had not thought of harbor freight to look for one of those...
> 
> most all of the stuff from that place is junk,.
> 
> but I am sure it would suffice for a while before it or the socket snapped:laughing:


My sockets are laser etched Craftsman as are my extensions. The ratchet is 1/2", and is a seldom used tool. Quality is decent for how I use it, I would not hesitate to buy one again if needed.


----------



## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

mraven64 said:


> I work in Technical Support with Bradford White. I would be more than happy to speak to you about the issues you are having. Please feel free to contact me at 800-334-3393.
> 
> Thank You,
> 
> ...


Put legs on your tanks! Not cool to cut away a drain pan to get access to a faulty thermopile.


----------



## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

JK949 said:


> Put legs on your tanks! Not cool to cut away a drain pan to get access to a faulty thermopile.


 Yea, & how about leveling legs, if you gonna put legs on it.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I wouldn't get too hung up on the linings as they are ALL sprayed on before welding so there is always at least one seam (usually on the bottom) that is unlined as well as the areas around the weld where there lining chips away due to the rapid thermal expansion from welding.

I just did some service on some new AO smith cyclones. I popped open the hand hole and find the bottom of the tank littered with enamel chips the blew off during the welding process. The only reasons (that I can figure anyway) they line tanks are: 1. Less exposed steel means less rusty water. and 2. Less cathode surface area with respect to anode surface area. If the entire tank was unlined, the anode would have virtually no effect because the ratio of cathode area to anode area would be way to high.





Master Mark said:


> all I need are better anode rods or a whole bunch of free ones. sent to me 2 dozen would be nice..... I am buying 3 alluminum ones to keep in my truck at 20 each and I will probably change them out on units with softeners..... most of them are from around 2006-07
> so far.....
> 
> Might be able to make an upgrade sale I suppose and recoup the 20 bucks....
> ...


----------



## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

And the American's have arrived! Listen up BW! Standard gas valve and thermocouple, with extra parts delivered free of charge before the call comes in. Can't say we were happy trying to wrangle thermopiles out of you to have on hand when the warranty calls came in. No more $170 gas valves to buy either.


----------



## standard2nr (Sep 30, 2010)

You do realize that water softeners use salt? Salt is very corrossive to most metals and in a fairly short period of time. Unfortunately, a long time ago the Culligan Man cut a path of water softening in the US. People don't quite understand that simple maintenance and cleaning will keep their plumbing fixtures and systems in good working order. Softenere were originally developed as an alternative to having to clean your fixtures, but the trade off is that it is harmfull to your health and the enviorment. Every part of the US has varying degrees of mineral content in the water. Here in PA the water is very hard, but I don't have a softener in my house, and I own a plumbing company. I know the downside of the systems, and I wish I had a dime for every abandoned system that we've removed from homes over the years. The one exception to the scenario is when a customer has a very high PH or acidic quality to their water, which by the way is infrequent. Then the solution is a fairly expensive chemical nuetralizing treatment system. There are a lot of different facets to water treatment.........being from biological to chemical treatments.


----------

