# Burping toilet



## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

2 bath house, 2nd floor bath is right on top. When HO flushes 2nd floor toilet, the first floor bowl burps. Pulled it and snaked line, still doing same thing. Vent blockage?


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## Big cheez (Jan 11, 2012)

stecar said:


> 2 bath house, 2nd floor bath is right on top. When HO flushes 2nd floor toilet, the first floor bowl burps. Pulled it and snaked line, still doing same thing. Vent blockage?


I had a hotel do the same thing and it ended up being a belly in the trunk line causing a minor stoppage


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Pull the p-trap at the downstairs lav. and flush the upstairs toilet. If there's a vent problem, that should cure it. I'm thinking there's a partial blockage or a belly in the line. 






Paul


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

If the piping is cast iron, I've seen build up on the inside of pipe, like from the 1st floor kitchen, where the piping below the 1st toilet, could be restricting the flow. Removed a CI pipe about a month ago, that had less than 2" opening, inside a 3" pipe. All caused from too much grease from kitchen sink waste.


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

Ok i snaked the line from the burping toilet out about 30 feet. There is a slop sink in basement that i filled about 6 times and drains no problem. The kitchen wasten is its own stack and ties into sewer below grade. As far as lav on first floor, its an s trap. Some contractor hooked it up but that drains perfect also. I will not go on roof because of the pitch, is it worth cutting in a CO in attic and snake from there? Burping toilet is only about a year old and they noticed problem last week.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Give it some Tums.


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

Rolaids?


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## antiCon (Jun 15, 2012)

wet vented ?


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

The bowl with the prob is.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

stecar said:


> The bowl with the prob is.


Is what ? :blink:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

How far from the stack does this lower bowl tie in?


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

3' approx


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

stecar said:


> 3' approx


That can't be. It should be much further than that.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

So this burping toilet ties in 3' from the base of the stack...


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Is it a vertical or horizontal wet vent?


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

The bathroom above must be venting it. No idea how its vented. In the basement I can see a stack with a 3' branch of 3"CI going to lead bend. Stack goes straight up which I cannot see whats going on above it.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

stecar said:


> The bathroom above must be venting it. No idea how its vented. In the basement I can see a stack with a 3' branch of 3"CI going to lead bend. Stack goes straight up which I cannot see whats going on above it.


And the 2nd floor bathroom is sharing this single stack? :blink:

If so, I can't see how they got by so long without the downstairs burping :laughing:


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Maybe they missed the "located on the same floor" in the wet vent definition?

Are you sure it isn't a horizontal wet vent with the tub or lav vented?
Have you tried removing the trap from the lav to see if it still burps?


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

I be breaking out the camera and charging them find the problem


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

No have not removed trap. If i do and no more burping are we thinking blocked vent?


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Blocked or improper? If you can get to the stack try augering up til yougo out the roof?


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

There should be a relief vent for the 1st floor toilet too. Lot of 2 story houses here, have waste tees, with multiple openings,& they use the extra 2" or 11/2" opening to revent, &/or wet vent, the 1st floor toilet, by tieing in the 2nd floor tub, &/or lav, & then revent above the highest fixture on 2nd floor.


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

Going back a week from monday to cut in a CO in the attic.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I had a problem like this. The farmer plumbed his own house. No vents anywhere. The line was trying to pull air from the bottom toilet. They wouldn't pay me to fix it, so I left.


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

Ok went back and snaked through vent in attic. Line was clear. Disconnected illegal s trap on lav next to bowl and flushed upstairs. Burp is gone. Hook trap back up and fill with water and it does it again. 
So its not vented properly. House was built in the 20's, why all of a sudden.


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

For now cut in a studor vent in cabinet, but they need to remodel that bath, and you need to redo the vent for it. :thumbsup:

Could be vermin nesting in the pipe, down here we get tree frogs clump up in the vent, when i run the snake down they scream,they sound just like kittens, very disturbing.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Pegasusplumbing said:


> For now cut in a studor vent in cabinet, but they need to remodel that bath, and you need to redo the vent for it. :thumbsup:
> 
> Could be vermin nesting in the pipe, down here we get tree frogs clump up in the vent, when i run the snake down they scream,they sound just like kittens, very disturbing.


I'll have my hearing aid off while doing that...


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

Customer doesnt agree with needing a vent because the age of the home and the problem just started. As far as I am concerned all drainage and venting are wide open, no blockage.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

stecar said:


> Customer doesnt agree with needing a vent because the age of the home and the problem just started. As far as I am concerned all drainage and venting are wide open, no blockage.


Eff him then


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

After reading the entire thread I am left speechless and in despair for the future of the trade.


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

nhmaster3015 said:


> After reading the entire thread I am left speechless and in despair for the future of the trade.


I'll bite,...explain why?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Really? I need to explain the cause of a "burping" toilet to a group of Master and Journeyman plumbers? And some of you think the vent is the problem? Really?


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

Other than asking questions, why would we be here. Many things i have read have been common sense but I dont respond by being a know it all to make the guy feel like an ass. Sometimes we or I overlook the most common thing. Over 30 responses here and noone responds with that stupid remark. Please dont even respond with the answer as you know it all and I wouldnt take your time away when you can be bashing ppl in other threads.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

By all means, continue fiddling with "the vent" then. This is a forum for PROFESSIONAL plumbers. That would be plumbers that know their craft. If you really think the vent is your problem, then you seriously need to re-examine your knowledge base. We have had this discussion many many times in the past and always with the same results. Those that know their craft also know that the vent is not the issue. Those that don't believe it need to find a plumbing text book and do some reading. But to speed up the process, toilets are full siphoning and self vented fixtures so if its "burping" it ain't the vent. It's either an obstruction, sag or badly plumbed "waste" line. The only way a vent would be an issue is if there is a restriction in the waste line that causes the air in front of the discharge to not be able to make it either to the septic tank or the sewer and that's ALWAYS because of one of the above causes.

Is this forum really for asking questions? If so then I have one. How is it that you don't know this stuff already?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Really? I need to explain the cause of a "burping" toilet to a group of Master and Journeyman plumbers? And some of you think the vent is the problem? Really?


Sure ... Take the time to enlighten every one... Or are you booked up for the evening


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Pegasusplumbing said:


> For now cut in a studor vent in cabinet, but they need to remodel that bath, and you need to redo the vent for it. :thumbsup:
> 
> Could be vermin nesting in the pipe, *down here we get tree frogs clump up in the vent, when i run the snake down they scream,they sound just like kittens*, very disturbing.


Are you joking or serious?


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

Line has been snaked. Why would the burp go away when the trap in the lav is disconnected. Bash away


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

gear junkie said:


> Are you joking or serious?


Hehe, the first time I heard it, I ran down the ladder and asked the HO if they had kittens in the attic, I was freaked out by the thought of grinding up cute little kittens,....later after the customer assured me that he had no cat and seen no strays around his property, I got back on it, the "noise" started again so pulled out me cable, three frogs where wrap on the snake like tampons. As I said it's a disturbing sound they make.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

stecar said:


> Line has been snaked. Why would the burp go away when the trap in the lav is disconnected. Bash away


Cause the air that is gurgling in the toilet [making the "burping" sound] now has somewhere else to go, ,since it cant get down the blocked up sewer.


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Is this forum really for asking questions? If so then I have one. How is it that you don't know this stuff already?



What do you get out of this forum sir? Entertainment? A feeling superiority? I am happy you know the answer. I am sorry it offends you that someone asked it.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

stecar said:


> Line has been snaked. Why would the burp go away when the trap in the lav is disconnected. Bash away



Oh come on! I'm not your master and I'm guessing you have your masters ticket so why don't you sit for a spell, think about it and tell me why the burp goes away when the trap in the lav is disconnected? You say you mostly do service work and if that's true then either you are lying about your credentials or you are having a brain cramp. I sincerely hope it's the latter. BTW, here's a clue though, invest in a sewer cam :thumbsup:


Leading on.....when the lav trap goes away.......
the air that's ahead of the discharge can go........
because there's a problem with it's normal path..........

If you ever run into The Master, you can ask him, he'll direct you to a youtube video and a 50 dollar lost bet LOL

And yes, I am a prick and that's why I get the big bucks


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Pegasusplumbing said:


> For now cut in a studor vent in cabinet, but they need to remodel that bath, and you need to redo the vent for it. :thumbsup:
> 
> Could be vermin nesting in the pipe, down here we get tree frogs clump up in the vent, when i run the snake down they scream,they sound just like kittens, very disturbing.



So you are advocating a Studor Vent in lieu of fixing the drain? Which BTW will cause more problems in the future regardless of the Studor solution


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Is this forum really for asking questions? If so then I have one. How is it that you don't know this stuff already?


Some of us become specialist in certain areas of the field. I'm good in drain cleaning, gas line installation and copper. I'm NOT good in tankless water heater or hydronics and boilers. Just never dealt with them before.

Having a master's card doesn't mean you know everything about plumbing. It means you knew the bare minimum required at the time by your licensing agency. We got the card but it doesn't mean the learning stops.


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

nhmaster3015 said:


> So you are advocating a Studor Vent in lieu of fixing the drain? Which BTW will cause more problems in the future regardless of the Studor solution


Nah after your explanation, I agree with your diagnoses, completely, as I said, "you had the answer" the studor vent would not help at all. Cause they allow air in and not out, as the problem we are adressing air needs out. The drain needs to be scoped. As you hinted. You are right! I do feel however, there is no need to make him regret asking something here, just to save face.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

gear junkie said:


> Some of us become specialist in certain areas of the field. I'm good in drain cleaning, gas line installation and copper. I'm NOT good in tankless water heater or hydronics and boilers. Just never dealt with them before.
> 
> Having a master's card doesn't mean you know everything about plumbing. It means you knew the bare minimum required at the time by your licensing agency. We got the card but it doesn't mean the learning stops.


Well yea but this is apprentice level stuff. This is what I teach to 1st years. I fully understand that the learning in this trade never stops but this is not high level stuff here. It's plumbing 101, hell it's even covered in Plumbing 123 by Home Depot :laughing:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Pegasusplumbing said:


> Nah after your explanation, I agree with your diagnoses, completely, as I said, "you had the answer" the studor vent would not help at all. Cause they allow air in and not out, as the problem we are assdressing air needs out. The drain needs to be scoped. As you hinted. You are right! I do feel however, there is no need to make him regret asking something here, just to save face.



I know but I'm here as the resident "Dick" although Widdy tries to muscle in every once in awhile and Redwood too...:laughing:

He'll get over it once the light comes on. Sometimes we all get brain cramps.....especially at my age.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Eff him then


Agreed

Down in the south we sing a hymn to customer like that the song goes:

Hymn
Hymn

Fvck Hymn............


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

Dick or not, he is right,... Some where the drain bellies, and it dips down low enough for the standing water to block airflow.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> By all means, continue fiddling with "the vent" then. This is a forum for PROFESSIONAL plumbers. <INTRESTRING>
> 
> But my wife's grandfather owed a farm of which he rented the house. The house had a toilet that would not flush, just rise to the rim and overflow. Augered toilet and snaked drain the availabilty of a sewer camera did not exsit. When you plunged the toilet it would go down plunge the 2nd time it would go down. But that time you would hear a little blupe-blupe after that small sound there would be no flushing problem until someone used the washbasin, which was S trapped. Then the cycle would start again. No vents on job what-so-ever. I fixed it by drilling a 1/2" hole in the top of the 4" closet bend and running a 1/2 pipe out the side wall of the bath - terminating above the flood rim of the lavatory. Now which way did the air go in or out. And the answer is ...
> Both ways -- when you hit the flush handle the air came out the pipe relieving the air holding the water back in the toilet then changing to a drawing in to relieve the back siphon on the lavatory trap. The only thing the septic tank did have a trap. Single hole no F/A. The tub had a drum trap pretty hard to break that seal.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

I'm going to agree that I think the line is partially blocked. If the fixture needed more vent it would slurp, not burp. I also agree with what Plumber Bill said but in this case I would venture to guess that one of several things has happened. My most likely guesses are:


The sewer has had a long belly for a quite some time that has slowly filled with sludge. When you cabled you ran through the sludge without noticing but did not remove it so it sealed back up behind your cable. If you could jet from downstream to remove the sludge it may work for a while again. Maybe. I kinda doubt it's this one but it's a possibility.
The sewer developed a leak and softened the soil under the pipe, allowing it to sag and/or break. This to me would seem the most likely due to the fact that the homeowner states the problem has only occurred recently. In either of these cases it is likely that the belly is greater than the diameter of the pipe and the standing water is blocking airflow but the water can flow through like a trap, or it is so close that there is only a very small area at the top of the pipe that is open, so that when you flush the waste immediately blocks the remaining opening to airflow until it drains.
The sewer has a sag which over time has led to a grease blockage from another source (kitchen, laundry). When a sag (belly)sits full of water, the water cools to the soil temperature. When a dishwasher, etc. drains, the water is hot which emulsifies the grease. When that water hits the cool water in the belly, it cools and the grease congeals, often clinging to the top of the pipe because of course fats, oils, and greases float. Over time there may have been a slow buildup of grease at the top of the pipe, eventually building it down to and below the level of the standing water in the belly, effectively forming a seal through which air cannot escape, but which the water can flow under. Cabling should remove a grease blockage but what you didn't tell us is what size of cable/cutters you used. If you ran a cutter that is smaller than the sag, you could have shot right under the grease buildup in the clear standing water of the belly and never noticed a thing.
I'm betting a Happy Meal toy on one of the above scenarios. Shred away, NH, I'm sure I said something stupid.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I solved another burping toilet issue by cutting a vent into the horizontal building drain in the crawl. It was a parsonage in Green Garden Township. There were no fixture vents, the plumbing was cast iron with no sags or bellies, out to a septic pit. There had been some remodeling at one point, and I unscrewed a plug out of a tapped tee and used it for a vent takeoff. That fixed it. Water running through a pipe pushes air in front of it, and pulls water behind it. When I cut in that relief vent, it fixed it.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

SewerRat said:


> I'm going to agree that I think the line is partially blocked. If the fixture needed more vent it would slurp, not burp. I also agree with what Plumber Bill said but in this case I would venture to guess that one of several things has happened. My most likely guesses are:
> 
> 
> The sewer has had a long belly for a quite some time that has slowly filled with sludge. When you cabled you ran through the sludge without noticing but did not remove it so it sealed back up behind your cable. If you could jet from downstream to remove the sludge it may work for a while again. Maybe. I kinda doubt it's this one but it's a possibility.
> ...


No shred here, I think you have probably nailed it with at least one of those three and maybe even a couple.

Remember that sinks and fixtures will get all the "vent" they need from the atmospheric pressure pushing down on the column of water. If the drain fails to flow then there has to be an obstruction, either solid, semi-solid or a sag in the pipe causing a double trap and and obstruction to flow. Septic tank systems are their own animal though because the tank can be full, the leach field not leaching, the D box plugged up or the inlet baffle plugged all of which will not let the volume of air that is being pushed down the horizontal, flow. Adding a vent only gives a temporary place for that air to go. You can prove this by gathering 4 or 5, 5 gallon buckets and dumping them all down the toilet or drain in rapid succession thereby causing the fixture to overflow when the relief vent has exhausted it's ability to handle the volume. And for those of you about to fire back that dumping 5 gallon buckets exceeds the DFU for the drain, that's not true because the cross section of the drain limits the amount of water and therefore you should be able to maintain a steady pour. The trick here is to see if you can fill the lateral. If you can, you have an obstruction. 

This has been fun but I'm on vacation till September 6th :laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Now was that so hard to do


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Stecar, curious, why did you snake the lateral only 30'?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Oh come on! I'm not your master and I'm guessing you have your masters ticket so why don't you sit for a spell, think about it and tell me why the burp goes away when the trap in the lav is disconnected? You say you mostly do service work and if that's true then either you are lying about your credentials or you are having a brain cramp. I sincerely hope it's the latter. BTW, here's a clue though, invest in a sewer cam :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> Leading on.....when the lav trap goes away.......
> ...


LOL that just had to go about 4 closed threads complete with death threats all with about 100 pages of replies....

Vents are vastly over rated but a clogged line will stop everything....


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Pegasusplumbing said:


> For now cut in a studor vent in cabinet, but they need to remodel that bath, and you need to redo the vent for it. :thumbsup:
> 
> Could be vermin nesting in the pipe, down here we get tree frogs clump up in the vent, when i run the snake down they scream,they sound just like kittens, very disturbing.


Studor won't do jack for a positive pressure issue.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Nope it won't and it has always pissed me right the Christ off that they were accepted by many states when they knew damn well that they only let air in, not out and yet there are a whole lot of dumb assed plumbers hacking them onto things like washing 
machine vents.

I do want to apologize to stecar for coming down on him like a ton of bricks. It's not personal, it's my winning personality shining through. I hope I didn't sour him too much and drive him away.


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

Ok well customer called today and said the town was out servicing sewer in street because of complaints from other homes on street. No idea what they did but problem has gone away. The house is the last one on the street according to homeowner that spoke to someone from the sewer dept. 
NH, thank you but no apology needed. I see things that drive me crazy all the time, but I have to admit I learned from this. 
You can mock me about plumbing all you want just dont tell me I am having a bad hair day, then its ON.
2 things learned on this call
Its not the vent
And dont ask NH how to install a flapper


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Next time I'm in Jersey I'm buying :thumbsup:


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

Protech said:


> Studor won't do jack for a positive pressure issue.


You are absolutely right, once I realized it was a positive pressure issue I jumped on the nh bandwagon. :thumbsup:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

stecar said:


> Ok well customer called today and said the town was out servicing sewer in street because of complaints from other homes on street. No idea what they did but problem has gone away. The house is the last one on the street according to homeowner that spoke to someone from the sewer dept.


I know they didn't put in a vent! :laughing:


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Redwood said:


> I know they didn't put in a vent! :laughing:


Ahhh the good old North East Infastructure and 1.6 or 1.28 GPF toilets
the perfect combination of a major screw up ... Hint invest in the companies that make trucks as shown on Reds post.


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