# 20 floors of copper...



## jnohs

We are about 1/2 way done with the building, ow at the 12th floor change/crossover floor. 2" mains branched to Five 1 1/2 riser sets. 1 1/4 re-circulation loops, 1,000's of ft of pipe. 302 fixtures connected so far. 3 inch and 4 work to come. Coppers only.


https://goo.gl/photos/a9njvny97XBvkVaN8


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## bct p&h

Would be more impressive if you used fittings instead of swing joints, didn't run the copper so close to the metal studs that it's going to be pushed out of square to get the insulation on and you ran right over/ too close to electric panel and meter bank. Also looks like there wasn't too much thought to where to run the lines. Looks like it was just thrown up there one at a time where ever the guy putting in that one line felt like.


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## jnohs

fitting instead of swing joint, thats abot a $30,000 differance in materials and labor on the entire job, sorry wrong. swing joints allowed. How do you figure there was no thought where to run the lines, sure it not a 100% pre-engineered job but there is minimal waste, only had 3 leaks in about 5,000 fittings so far. All the mains and risers are getting insulated. and space has been left for insulation every where. Please make an attempt to see through your bull**** and focus on the light. Inspectors are happy, builder is happy, I am happy everything moving along, please stop hating... The meter bank is getting a special built veil or structure to allow for what we have there. something the builder and his engineers wrote up.

It would also be more impressive if it was 50 floors or 100 floors and the pipes were made of gold, but that's not we are doing here, sorry to let you down to not have the most impressive plumbing you will ever see in your life.


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## jnohs

after all i am Just JNohs.... right every one..........


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## jnohs

I am lucky my heart remembers to beat...


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## bct p&h

You're the one that posted the video. If you can't take some criticism, don't post your work.
From what I can see, I'm not there so I might be wrong, if you actually took the time to lay out your mains you wouldn't need the swing joints or the need to offset heights as much as you did. If all the floors are the same, and they usually are in a building like that, it would have been cheaper to waste one day laying out than it would have been to go in there all gun ho throwing pipe in wherever you could.
That's fine if they are going to protect the electric meters from those propress joints that are going to start leaking when the o rings rot out but there was no reason to run over that panel.
I don't know who you are or where your attitude is coming from but you can shove it up your ass hack.


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## Bayside500

just one tip for ya, turn your ****ing camera 90 degress


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## jnohs

got ya


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## Best Darn Sewer

What's up with the vent system at 2:20 mins? Granted I wasn't doing the layout but it seems like the various connections for the fixture vents could have been more consistent as opposed to having different heights for the re-vents. It looks messy. But, and this is a big BUT, I do not do new construction so I'm not as familiar with how things work. I've only done commercial new work for 2 months while waiting for a position to open. The rest of my career is residential and commercial service and repair.


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## jnohs

I am on copper only. Me and my associates have been mulling this over. Continually questioning what up with that... But they are generally consistent. This particular floor the cast crew that performed the work is no longer on the job.

We were brought in to take over the job, instead I opted to work the entire copper and water heating system to help alleviate the original plumber and let him focus on installing quality cast work. My crew is to small to complete all the plumbing on this job so now we are all working side by side and the speed and quality has improved for both the cast and copper lines.

I originally thought when in one of the 5 boroughs the vents had to go up 1 story plus 54" before tieing in to the vent sack...


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## gear junkie

Way better then I could do lol. Hey Joe, you said there were 3 leaks....what caused the leak? What kind of press machine are you using? How much time did you save by going with propress vs soldering?


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## plumbdrum

Your hangers should
Ld. be Clevis or A bands for insulating purposes and expansion. Ring hangers should only be used on the vertical.


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## wyrickmech

plumbdrum said:


> Your hangers should Ld. be Clevis or A bands for insulating purposes and expansion. Ring hangers should only be used on the vertical.


that type of hanger eats up time that the pro press saved,counterproductive to. Never seen them used for overhead.


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## justme

Looks pretty good , but I see a few things if you're going to use the split ring hangers use isolation tape,they make hangars like that now that have a rubber ring to help with vibration , doesn't matter if they're copper clad or not. What type of anchor did you use on the 3/8" ceiling plates you used to secure your allthread ? If you're going to do it like that use 3/8" nuts to tighten the allthread to the ceiling plate and to the hangar . The vibration in that building will cause the allthread to back out. As for the propress haters , I installed propress 14 years ago miles of copper with nothing but propress fittings , guess what still no leaks. I've seen copper work that was so much worse than what is in this video, is it perfect no. Looks good.


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## jnohs

the 3/8 rods are double nutted. I have switched to expansion anchors. the 3 leaks were on... 1 the helper totally miss crimped the fitting and destroyed the fitting. The other 2 were not crimped in the first place.


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## jnohs

I have a Milwaukee 12 volt, and Milwaukee 18 volt and I have the ridged cordless that goes up to 4 inch. the little 12 volt is the best one but only does up to 1 1/4


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## jnohs

Time the propress saves.... When I got on the job the orignal plumbers had allready done the 1st, 2nd and 3rd floors, we then did the 4th, 5th, and 6th. we then pressure tested... only one leak that round on our pipes and it was the miss crimp. On the 3 floors the solder was cone by the orignally plumber had leaks!!! we charged them time and materials to fix all there leaks. In the end we found 40-45 leaks on the 1-3rd floors and the bill was $11,000. So that is the potential money savings $11,000 every 3 floors...let along the fact that it does not leak now or anytime in the next 20 years we are good and everyone is happy. best of all no leaks!


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## wharfrat

nice video, looks pretty good. God bless propress, such a great invention.


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## Master Mark

thats a good video...that looks like a lot of work.
there is a whole lot of money hanging up there ,,, ..
I guess the propress must save a lot of time and effort 
over soldering. 

they did a hospital here in INDY and soldered every one of 
those copper fittings... a couple of guys got very ill from the
density of the soldering fumes in those rooms....

it all looks god to me, 

It scares me to death just to think of
estimating something on a level that huge ...I would probably be in the red after the second floor up......



..


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## Plumbus

With clevis hangers, even insulated ones, tube will hop around when water hammer comes a knockin'. Since you have three lines in parallel, I'm surprised you didn't use channel and cushion clamps. 
When running solitary water lines, we gone to these. 
http://www.erico.com/category.asp?category=R730
The plumbers like them, and so do the acoustical engineers.


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## justme

that's the only split ring hangar I use now.


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## CT18

What 20 story building in this day and age is being built without some sort of 3d coordination or at least using light tables to coordinate the mechanical's.


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## dhal22

wyrickmech said:


> that type of hanger eats up time that the pro press saved,counterproductive to. Never seen them used for overhead.



I agree, never seen split rings used like that. Properly insulated pipe needs an oversized clevis hanger and an insulation saddle afterwards.


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## Rando

CT18 said:


> What 20 story building in this day and age is being built without some sort of 3d coordination or at least using light tables to coordinate the mechanical's.


 That's what I was wondering, You can tell it wasn't coordinated by all the jumping up and down and crazy routing.


Pro Press. :thumbdown:
You might want to get your foreman to check the spec book on those hangers. I've never seen one that doesn't say Insulation will pass full width through hanger and use a calcium shield or metal support shield. Trapeze hanging with strut would have been so much cleaner. Probably cheaper than those big copper coated split clamps too. 
You guys can call it "swing joints" I call it crooked pipes.That **** would never fly on one of my projects I don't care how much it costs.


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## fhrooter72

I've never understood why people have an issue with swing joints. They save time and money. A swing joint will have less 90 degree turns and less 90 degree turns means less turbulence, less turbulence means less chance of corrosion. Why so much hate for swing joints?


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## bct p&h

fhrooter72 said:


> I've never understood why people have an issue with swing joints. They save time and money. A swing joint will have less 90 degree turns and less 90 degree turns means less turbulence, less turbulence means less chance of corrosion. Why so much hate for swing joints?


If that's how you feel why not just run soft copper and the only fittings you'll need are tees and couplings


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## mccmech

bct p&h said:


> If that's how you feel why not just run soft copper and the only fittings you'll need are tees and couplings


I really love all the "holier than thou" plumbers who participate on this chat room. I aspire to live in that rainbow & unicorn world you guys work in. I think we ALL would love to have Suzie Lay Down as our customer. Unfortunately, out here in the real world we have to compete on a myriad of fronts. Why can't all you "Superstars" just accept the fact that other plumbers, who perform code-compliant work, are earning a living in the arena the exist. Better yet, why don't ya all put down yer stones, since we all live in glass houses. There's probably bit a single one of you heroes of the trade who has NEVER done something beneath the practices you preach!


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## bct p&h

mccmech said:


> I really love all the "holier than thou" plumbers who participate on this chat room. I aspire to live in that rainbow & unicorn world you guys work in. I think we ALL would love to have Suzie Lay Down as our customer. Unfortunately, out here in the real world we have to compete on a myriad of fronts. Why can't all you "Superstars" just accept the fact that other plumbers, who perform code-compliant work, are earning a living in the arena the exist. Better yet, why don't ya all put down yer stones, since we all live in glass houses. There's probably bit a single one of you heroes of the trade who has NEVER done something beneath the practices you preach!


I never said I haven't made a swing joint for one reason or another. But at the same time I have never done it on the scale he did in that video. If he wants to post a video of his work with his 20 whatever floors like a big shot his work better back it up. I've lost jobs like that to guys that do work like him. Am I going to start doing work like him to cut costs and land more jobs? Hell no. I'll stop doing the big stuff before I hack it in to save a buck. I don't know if it was him or his boss that priced that job out but he said another plumber started it so whoever gave the bid should have made a site visit and knew what they were getting themselves into and priced it accordingly. If they priced it to hack and slash then shame on them and I wouldn't be posting it for everyone to see then get bent out of shape when he gets called out for what it looks like.
I like how you bring up "code compliment" like that is an accurate way of how work should be done. You could run miles of pipe out of square with the building and it would be "code compliment". It would also look like crap. It seems like no one cares anymore as long as it passes inspection. Of course the GC will be happy, the job it getting done quickly and it passes. Around here there is a section of the code for workmanship that most inspectors seem to either forget about or they're too scared to call someone out on.
You and the guy that posted the video can crow fly your pipes until the cows come home. I'll keep doing my work the same way I've always done it so I can sleep at night.


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## Rando

mccmech said:


> I really love all the "holier than thou" plumbers who participate on this chat room. I aspire to live in that rainbow & unicorn world you guys work in. I think we ALL would love to have Suzie Lay Down as our customer. Unfortunately, out here in the real world we have to compete on a myriad of fronts. Why can't all you "Superstars" just accept the fact that other plumbers, who perform code-compliant work, are earning a living in the arena the exist. Better yet, why don't ya all put down yer stones, since we all live in glass houses. There's probably bit a single one of you heroes of the trade who has NEVER done something beneath the practices you preach!


My real world consists of GC's, owners, engineers, building inspectors, commissioning agents, owners reps, and whatever various third party inspector the owner and GC choose to critique my work and make sure I follow all specs and engineering requirements to the letter. Not to mention my supervisors who are all old school plumbers who value quality and craftsmanship. Then I get to do all that with less manpower, less material cost, more unrealistic schedules and less labor hours than ever before. Hardly rainbow and unicorn land. :laughing: 
Any job that size is going to have a project manual that without a doubt states all piping is to be installed square and perpendicular to building structure and spells out exactly what kind of hangers to use. I have yet to see one that says it's OK to install water piping with all kinds of crazy angles to save fittings.
Hey, if that guy and his company can get away with installing work like that and not get killed by engineers observation reports and building inspectors and picky owners more power to em. 
If you judge the quality of your installation by the number of leaks you have or don't have, well that's just unfortunate.


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## Rando

mccmech said:


> I really love all the "holier than thou" plumbers who participate on this chat room. I aspire to live in that rainbow & unicorn world you guys work in. I think we ALL would love to have Suzie Lay Down as our customer. Unfortunately, out here in the real world we have to compete on a myriad of fronts. Why can't all you "Superstars" just accept the fact that other plumbers, who perform code-compliant work, are earning a living in the arena the exist. Better yet, why don't ya all put down yer stones, since we all live in glass houses. There's probably bit a single one of you heroes of the trade who has NEVER done something beneath the practices you preach!


Huh?
http://www.plumbingzone.com/f21/s-easy-47178/

criticize us? When you're doing the same thing? There's a word for that. :laughing:


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## justme

Rando said:


> Huh?
> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f21/s-easy-47178/
> 
> criticize us? When you're doing the same thing? There's a word for that. :laughing:


 There's a huge difference between what he posted compared to what was posted in this thread if you can't see that then go back to your world where unicorns fart rainbows and **** candy.


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## Rando

justme said:


> There's a huge difference between what he posted compared to what was posted in this thread if you can't see that then go back to your world where unicorns fart rainbows and **** candy.


No difference at all.


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## justme

:yes:


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## wyrickmech

fhrooter72 said:


> I've never understood why people have an issue with swing joints. They save time and money. A swing joint will have less 90 degree turns and less 90 degree turns means less turbulence, less turbulence means less chance of corrosion. Why so much hate for swing joints?


most specks say to run pipe perpendicular at right angles to the building structure. That way you don't take up any more room than you have to. By swinging as a practice you will cut the usable room above a ceiling. Basically it's a practice that should not done as a common thing. That being said they do have places where it is a option.


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## Plumber

Where's the solder? 

Kids gots it waaaay too easy nowadays.


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## Otobeme

jnohs said:


> We are about 1/2 way done with the building, ow at the 12th floor change/crossover floor. 2" mains branched to Five 1 1/2 riser sets. 1 1/4 re-circulation loops, 1,000's of ft of pipe. 302 fixtures connected so far. 3 inch and 4 work to come. Coppers only.
> 
> 
> https://goo.gl/photos/a9njvny97XBvkVaN8


Looks great! Swing joints, waste and all...


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## Shoot'N'Plumber

Rando said:


> Huh?
> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f21/s-easy-47178/
> 
> criticize us? When you're doing the same thing? There's a word for that. :laughing:


That wasn't his work dude! He was simply posting a picture of a somebody else's work and being sarcastic about it!


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## Flyout95

I'll only use a swing joint as a last resort, or a first resort if for some reason we're the last guy in.


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## mccmech

Flyout95 said:


> I'll only use a swing joint as a last resort, or a first resort if for some reason we're the last guy in.


I feel that, for the most part, we plumbers/fitters try to row the same boat in the same direction, as far as pride in our craft. I feel that's especially true about any person who is enough of a geek to join a chat room to learn from our brothers. As a fellow brother in the trade, I respect what each has to do to survive. I only ask the same respect from those who may have a little more discretion when doing "their" jobs.


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## mccmech

I 

I really do take pride in my trade!


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## Rando

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> That wasn't his work dude! He was simply posting a picture of a somebody else's work and being sarcastic about it!


I know, my point was he's commenting on peoples bad work and then criticizing us for the same thing in a different thread. 
OP if you're happy with your work and you're making money great more power toya.


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## plumbdrum

mccmech said:


> View attachment 56993
> I
> 
> I really do take pride in my trade!



I've got to ask, what the heck is that drain work?


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## CT18

In my area i would have to vent all the lav's running it like that. I am not sure if that is the code in his area.


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## mccmech

plumbdrum said:


> I've got to ask, what the heck is that drain work?


That's plumbing for a series of lavatory sinks. 2" line with 1 1/2 branches & traps to catch 1 1-4 lav discharge. Vented at both ends of the run. Passes Philadelphia code every day of the week.


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## plumbdrum

How are they not full s traps?


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## plumbdrum

I did some research on philly code, it's compliant according to your code, but man you guys have some azz backwards ways of doing plumbing. It looks like you are allowed s traps through out your code. I've seen some screwed up codes but I think you guys take the prize. No offence


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## mccmech

plumbdrum said:


> How are they not full s traps?


Correct me if I'm wrong. It's not considered an S trap as long as the trap arm extends at least 2 1/2 times the diameter of the drain served.


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## mccmech

plumbdrum said:


> I did some research on philly code, it's compliant according to your code, but man you guys have some azz backwards ways of doing plumbing. It looks like you are allowed s traps through out your code. I've seen some screwed up codes but I think you guys take the prize. No offence


Hey, I know what ya mean about the Philly code. I got my masters in NJ, which operates under the PHCC. But, even under that code, I would argue all day long with an inspector who tried telling me they are S traps.


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## mccmech

Hey PlumDrum, since ya were looking at Philly code, how about arm distances?!!!!! I've been doing some commercial work there lately, and it's gotten comical how different a Philly vs NJ plumber feel about arm distances. Seems they can run lines 'til lunch time before needing vent. Drives me nuts!!!


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## plumbdrum

mccmech said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong. It's not considered an S trap as long as the trap arm extends at least 2 1/2 times the diameter of the drain served.


 To me it's a S trap that is 2 1/2 times longer than it should be.


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## mccmech

plumbdrum said:


> To me it's a S trap that is 2 1/2 times longer than it should be.


????


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## mccmech

plumbdrum said:


> To me it's a S trap that is 2 1/2 times longer than it should be.


So what would your preferred install be? Combie's, or sanitary T's on their side, all on the horizontal plane?


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## plumbdrum

So once again I refer to the Internet for info, so I guess the whole 2 times the pipe diameter thingy would fly in your case. To me it is the most screwed up way to do plumbing and I still say it's an S trap, but hey Ma is a long ways away from Philly so plumb away my friend, just don't try that crap here. Lol


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## wyrickmech

mccmech said:


> That's plumbing for a series of lavatory sinks. 2" line with 1 1/2 branches & traps to catch 1 1-4 lav discharge. Vented at both ends of the run. Passes Philadelphia code every day of the week.


 wouldn't pass here for a couple reasons.


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## plumbdrum

mccmech said:


> So what would your preferred install be? Combie's, or sanitary T's on their side, all on the horizontal plane?



Common vent, individual vent would only fly with what you show in your picture here


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## wyrickmech

2 1/2 rule only apples to crown venting here. If the fluid isn't broke with a vent before it one travels a distance that fall is equal to the diameter of the pipe or two drops more than the diameter of the drain without being broke with a vent. Also the vent on the end would be illegal because it isn't washed backwater can deposit trash.


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## Best Darn Sewer

2 times the pipe diameter is the rule for the minimum distance of the trap arm to the vent to prevent from being a crown vent, as Wyrick stated. It has nothing to do with s-traps. 

If the trap arm is too long it will become an s-trap because the centerline will be above the top of the inlet to a santee being you must have 1/4" per foot fall on the trap arm. Those lavatories all have s-traps which according to IPC and UPC are non compliant. Weird that philly would allow it. 

The reason its non compliant is that the trap has the potential to siphon itself out like a toilet if the conditions are right. I've never seen a code allow S-traps in anything other than toilets and urinals where they're integral traps that are replenished with a fill valve after siphoning.


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## bct p&h

mccmech said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong. It's not considered an S trap as long as the trap arm extends at least 2 1/2 times the diameter of the drain served.


Both ways are considered an S trap. The reason for the 2x rule is because when the water comes out of the trap it will hit the top of the drain blocking off the vent, it needs space to settle down. The way it is piped in the picture is essentially the same thing except at least with the vent too close to the trap there is less of a chance of the trap being sucked dry from negative pressure in the system.
Side note, it is nearly impossible not to have 2x the pipe diameter with today's fittings.


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## mccmech

wyrickmech said:


> 2 1/2 rule only apples to crown venting here. If the fluid isn't broke with a vent before it one travels a distance that fall is equal to the diameter of the pipe or two drops more than the diameter of the drain without being broke with a vent. Also the vent on the end would be illegal because it isn't washed backwater can deposit trash.


I'll give ya the comment on the upstream vent, above the first fixture in line. I ain't buying any Crown Vent comment though. Crown Vent is that **** they put on the trap weir. What is all this verbiage about 2 drops, one drop?!!!!!! I think some of your codes out there confuse the **** out of people with terms that make no sense. Listen, if the trap arm off my fixture travels two & one half times the diameter of the drain served ( meaning, on an 1 1/2 trap, my trap arm must travel 4 1/2 inches, now that makes sense ). This nonsense about the drain must travel two drops, unless on a Wednesday with the wind blowing out of the Southwest, that's nuts!!!!!! Long & short, and I hope Cuda takes note of this, we all work in different f-ing regions with different f-ing codes. As long as my **** flows down hill, prevents contamination, and passes muster with MY local codes, then everyone else's opinion is just that, their opinion! My mentor taught me years ago: "As long as you can hang your hat on it code-wise, it's fine". 10 of us in the same room would do the same task differently. Who's wrong? Who's right? Well I am, but I digress. ;-) ;-)


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## mccmech

Best Darn Sewer said:


> 2 times the pipe diameter is the rule for the minimum distance of the trap arm to the vent to prevent from being a crown vent, as Wyrick stated. It has nothing to do with s-traps.
> 
> If the trap arm is too long it will become an s-trap because the centerline will be above the top of the inlet to a santee being you must have 1/4" per foot fall on the trap arm. Those lavatories all have s-traps which according to IPC and UPC are non compliant. Weird that philly would allow it.
> 
> The reason its non compliant is that the trap has the potential to siphon itself out like a toilet if the conditions are right. I've never seen a code allow S-traps in anything other than toilets and urinals where they're integral traps that are replenished with a fill valve after siphoning.


That's bull****! The trap has little to no chance of wicking. No more than any other trap arm. That's why the minimal travel was established. If that's the case, then everyone of US who has installed a tub trap that ran to a stack in the control wall of the tub is in violation. Surely those distances qualify as S-traps!!!


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## mccmech

bct p&h said:


> Both ways are considered an S trap. The reason for the 2x rule is because when the water comes out of the trap it will hit the top of the drain blocking off the vent, it needs space to settle down. The way it is piped in the picture is essentially the same thing except at least with the vent too close to the trap there is less of a chance of the trap being sucked dry from negative pressure in the system.
> Side note, it is nearly impossible not to have 2x the pipe diameter with today's fittings.


Do me a favor, please account for me the fact that the branch & trap are up-sized one size as opposed to the discharge of the fixture served. There is no way on God's green earth that a 1 1/4 tailpiece is gonna facilitated filling an 1 1/2 trap & trap arm. Just so ya know, I'm a really thick-headed Irishman. I'll argue this **** all night!!!!


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## mccmech

plumbdrum said:


> So once again I refer to the Internet for info, so I guess the whole 2 times the pipe diameter thingy would fly in your case. To me it is the most screwed up way to do plumbing and I still say it's an S trap, but hey Ma is a long ways away from Philly so plumb away my friend, just don't try that crap here. Lol


So, as an inspector, would you embrace this code challenge, if presented to you, given that is what the local code states? You, as an inspector, really cannot impose your personal philosophy versus the code in Mass., can you?


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## mccmech

Oh, Wyrick, in NJ my upstream vent would need to be between the first & second fixtures, so as to provide washing. I don't make the Philly code, I install, as instructed under it.


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## wyrickmech

mccmech said:


> I'll give ya the comment on the upstream vent, above the first fixture in line. I ain't buying any Crown Vent comment though. Crown Vent is that **** they put on the trap weir. What is all this verbiage about 2 drops, one drop?!!!!!! I think some of your codes out there confuse the **** out of people with terms that make no sense. Listen, if the trap arm off my fixture travels two & one half times the diameter of the drain served ( meaning, on an 1 1/2 trap, my trap arm must travel 4 1/2 inches, now that makes sense ). This nonsense about the drain must travel two drops, unless on a Wednesday with the wind blowing out of the Southwest, that's nuts!!!!!! Long & short, and I hope Cuda takes note of this, we all work in different f-ing regions with different f-ing codes. As long as my **** flows down hill, prevents contamination, and passes muster with MY local codes, then everyone else's opinion is just that, their opinion! My mentor taught me years ago: "As long as you can hang your hat on it code-wise, it's fine". 10 of us in the same room would do the same task differently. Who's wrong? Who's right? Well I am, but I digress. ;-) ;-)



Ok I'll put it this way. You cannot turn down without breaking the drain with a vent or it is a s trap.


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## mccmech

wyrickmech said:


> Ok I'll put it this way. You cannot turn down without breaking the drain with a vent or it is a s trap.


And I'll reiterate that the pipe is up sized one size. Please demonstrate to me where an 1 1/4 fixture discharge will ever be capable of filling that larger pipe, barring a blockage. Therefore, there will always be venting ability.


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## mccmech

wyrickmech said:


> Ok I'll put it this way. You cannot turn down without breaking the drain with a vent or it is a s trap.


Would you do me a favor? Please post the definition, per YOUR code book, of what an S-trap is? As a plumbing geek, I'm curious how your state defines the term. I invite PlumbDrum to do the same. When I get back to my cell, er, room, I'll post my NJ code definition.


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## plumbdrum

The easiest explanation is the "vent" is below the trap weir, assuming the Philly code is considering the 2" horizontal drain a combination waste and vent. I would feel better about that install if the vertical vent was getting washed out by a lavatory and the additional lavatories were taken off the side center of the horizontal. Still would not fly here, but less likely to siphon the traps out.


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## bct p&h

mccmech said:


> Do me a favor, please account for me the fact that the branch & trap are up-sized one size as opposed to the discharge of the fixture served. There is no way on God's green earth that a 1 1/4 tailpiece is gonna facilitated filling an 1 1/2 trap & trap arm. Just so ya know, I'm a really thick-headed Irishman. I'll argue this **** all night!!!!


Do you understand hydraulic jump? That's what the 2x rule is about.
Once you get some build up in the line it will. The state I live it, rarely work in, allows you to over size the line going to the trap without a vent. So if you have a 3" floor drain you can run 4" to it and put a 4x3 coupling just before the trap and you don't have to vent it. Same theory, the 3" trap will never let enough water through to fill the 4" pipe. I don't agree with it because you will always get some build up in the drain but it is code. This goes back to what I said earlier, just because it meets minimum code doesn't mean it isn't hack.


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## mccmech

plumbdrum said:


> The easiest explanation is the "vent" is below the trap weir, assuming the Philly code is considering the 2" horizontal drain a combination waste and vent. I would feel better about that install if the vertical vent was getting washed out by a lavatory and the additional lavatories were taken off the side center of the horizontal. Still would not fly here, but lees likely to siphon the traps out.


And that's exactly why I asked if YOUR preferred install woul be combie, on side, along horizontal plane.


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## mccmech

bct p&h said:


> Do you understand hydraulic jump? That's what the 2x rule is about.
> Once you get some build up in the line it will. The state I live it, rarely work in, allows you to over size the line going to the trap without a vent. So if you have a 3" floor drain you can run 4" to it and put a 4x3 coupling just before the trap and you don't have to vent it. Same theory, the 3" trap will never let enough water through to fill the 4" pipe. I don't agree with it because you will always get some build up in the drain but it is code. This goes back to what I said earlier, just because it meets minimum code doesn't mean it isn't hack.


Well now yer picking at a scab! If it meets minimum code, then it's ****ING code!!!! In your mind it's hack. It doesn't mean it's not legal. This is the **** that got me going about Cuda's post. You guys don't make the ****ing rules. Just shut up and work under yours!!!! Don't you question, for one second, the world I work in & the rules I adhere to. Hack This Cuz!!!!!


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## plumbdrum

I think hack is a little strong. Everything looks plumb a supported properly. BC is a Ma guy like me and he knows how stringent our code is. Your correct if it's legal there plumb on. It's just funky to look at that's all.


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## AWWGH

Back to the original post.

The work looks okay,it's functional and will get the job done. As other stated I would have used strut rather than split rings. Personally not how I would have done it, it lacks planning. It looks more put it together as you go and make it work.


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## bct p&h

mccmech said:


> Well now yer picking at a scab! If it meets minimum code, then it's ****ING code!!!! In your mind it's hack. It doesn't mean it's not legal. This is the **** that got me going about Cuda's post. You guys don't make the ****ing rules. Just shut up and work under yours!!!! Don't you question, for one second, the world I work in & the rules I adhere to. Hack This Cuz!!!!!


Little sensitive are we? I never called you a hack. What you did looks neat, but it wouldn't fly around here. Your code is different than mine. I think the code of over sizing a drain to get away without a vent is hack. I understand the science behind it but I don't agree with it being done in the long run.


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## AWWGH

Plumber said:


> Where's the solder? Kids gots it waaaay too easy nowadays.


Don't worry in 30 years we will be replacing all the pro press fittings that are leaking.


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## AWWGH

mccmech said:


> So what would your preferred install be? Combie's, or sanitary T's on their side, all on the horizontal plane?


Here in CT (ipc) I would have vertical San tees at each lav with independent vents going to a common vent. Yours looks funny to me, but hey we are all from different parts of the country and or world.


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## wyrickmech

Ok the definition would be when the vent is below the weir of the trap. You can do anything that meets code there but here it still wouldn't meet code the systems similar to that require 2 in riser because of buildup. We do something similar to this scotch bare with me I did it in ten seconds wile bidding a job.


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## justme

Best Darn Sewer said:


> 2 times the pipe diameter is the rule for the minimum distance of the trap arm to the vent to prevent from being a crown vent, as Wyrick stated. It has nothing to do with s-traps.
> 
> If the trap arm is too long it will become an s-trap because the centerline will be above the top of the inlet to a santee being you must have 1/4" per foot fall on the trap arm. Those lavatories all have s-traps which according to IPC and UPC are non compliant. Weird that philly would allow it.
> 
> The reason its non compliant is that the trap has the potential to siphon itself out like a toilet if the conditions are right. I've never seen a code allow S-traps in anything other than toilets and urinals where they're integral traps that are replenished with a fill valve after siphoning.


Technically the IPC allows for S-traps in the CDV systems for restrooms


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## justme

mccmech said:


> And I'll reiterate that the pipe is up sized one size. Please demonstrate to me where an 1 1/4 fixture discharge will ever be capable of filling that larger pipe, barring a blockage. Therefore, there will always be venting ability.


So what you installed would be considered a combination drain & vent system under the IPC and would be allowed in most cities in Texax.


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## justme

pic of a CDV system


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## Best Darn Sewer

justme said:


> pic of a CDV system


I totally forgot about those. Yes, that concept makes sense. Upsizing the trap arm would help prevent from it siphoning. I've just only ever seen floor drains and kitchen drains using the CDV systems, not lavs. And typically on kitchen drains utilizing a CDV system the traps are sub slab.. I didn't think about lavs and using them above ground.


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## justme

Best Darn Sewer said:


> I totally forgot about those. Yes, that concept makes sense. Upsizing the trap arm would help prevent from it siphoning. I've just only ever seen floor drains and kitchen drains using the CDV systems, not lavs. And typically on kitchen drains utilizing a CDV system the traps are sub slab.. I didn't think about lavs and using them above ground.


I have never installed a system like that but it is legal and would save a ****load of $$$$$ on a topout . We use the CWV and CDV in grocery stores but only for case drains and some cities allow us to use it on the grease system.


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## nhmaster3015

We use CWV wherever possible.


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## dhal22

Dental offices and warehouses is where I've used the combo system mostly. Island sinks is another area.


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## plumbdrum

In Ma you have to apply for a special permission to allow CWV systems, the only place I've seen it is for coolers in super markets, and I think that's the only place it should be allowed. It must be a stupid IPC code to allow that plumbing nightmare to happen for any other occasion.


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## 89plumbum

Old employer use to do CDV all the time. Ill admit it felt weird not running vent stacks. But it was fun watching some inspectors scratching their heads.:laughing:


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## wyrickmech

plumbdrum said:


> In Ma you have to apply for a special permission to allow CWV systems, the only place I've seen it is for coolers in super markets, and I think that's the only place it should be allowed. It must be a stupid IPC code to allow that plumbing nightmare to happen for any other occasion.


 I think the system was originally designed for large areas that were problematic in venting. We don't use it and probably won't


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## rwh

It's for grocery stores isn't it? IL code only allows cwv on floor drains. Around swimming pools and stores where venting every drain is difficult, like wyrickmech said.


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## danfan13

Damn nice looking work. I personally don't understand the the need for all that copper and cast iron. Plastic will out live this and would be much cheaper for the owner. What is the building for? I seen bathtubs so it must be a hotel or apartments?


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## jnohs

2nd floor of building. Now we are doing everything. coppers 4", 3", 2", 1.5",...up to 8" sanitary and and storm drain system. 3 5" gas lines, 3 4" natural gas pumps in the basement. 

https://goo.gl/photos/Q6XrPiXgxUxjTTMt5


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## bct p&h

That looks a lot better than the first video. I think I only saw one swing joint but it looked like it was because you couldn't get the propress fittings close enough together for the hanger height. There should be low point drains after the ball valves before going up and I never understood the point in putting clean outs in a ceiling like that.


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## Plumber patt

bct p&h said:


> That looks a lot better than the first video. I think I only saw one swing joint but it looked like it was because you couldn't get the propress fittings close enough together for the hanger height. There should be low point drains after the ball valves before going up and I never understood the point in putting clean outs in a ceiling like that.


Clean outs must be installed at every horizontal change of direction here.


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## CT18

we use 45's where we can to avoid the clean outs all over the place. who wants to go up in a ceiling and open the clean out when the line is full.


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## bct p&h

Plumber patt said:


> Clean outs must be installed at every horizontal change of direction here.


I realize that but I've never seen someone try and snake a full line that is 10' off the floor in a drop ceiling or through an access panel.


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## Plumber patt

bct p&h said:


> I realize that but I've never seen someone try and snake a full line that is 10' off the floor in a drop ceiling or through an access panel.


We do it all the time. Never through an end clean out, but if there is line clean outs we snake through them all the time. Especially to clean kitchen stacks.


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## wyrickmech

CT18 said:


> we use 45's where we can to avoid the clean outs all over the place. who wants to go up in a ceiling and open the clean out when the line is full.


 they won't lol.


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## wyrickmech

It looks like you cleaned it up a lot good job.


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## bct p&h

Plumber patt said:


> We do it all the time. Never through an end clean out, but if there is line clean outs we snake through them all the time. Especially to clean kitchen stacks.


I've had state and local inspectors tell me to not waste the money and just put a cap at the end of a wye if it's no hub years ago. The state inspector said "if someone is crazy enough to try and snake a line that high up they won't care if they have to pull a clamp off of a cap." The way I look at it is, if you put enough accessible clean outs in there should never be a reason to snake a drain off of a ladder.


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## sportygolf

Poor guy who has to fire rate all those penetrations. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Plumber patt

bct p&h said:


> I've had state and local inspectors tell me to not waste the money and just put a cap at the end of a wye if it's no hub years ago. The state inspector said "if someone is crazy enough to try and snake a line that high up they won't care if they have to pull a clamp off of a cap." The way I look at it is, if you put enough accessible clean outs in there should never be a reason to snake a drain off of a ladder.


It avoids going into tennant suites and disrupting them. Also allows you to get full size cables into the 3 or 4 inch drain, rather than going through kitchen wastes under sinks.


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## plumbdrum

bct p&h said:


> I've had state and local inspectors tell me to not waste the money and just put a cap at the end of a wye if it's no hub years ago. The state inspector said "if someone is crazy enough to try and snake a line that high up they won't care if they have to pull a clamp off of a cap." The way I look at it is, if you put enough accessible clean outs in there should never be a reason to snake a drain off of a ladder.


I tell guys that all the time. Let's see them get the brass plug off in 5 years. Lol


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## wyrickmech

plumbdrum said:


> I tell guys that all the time. Let's see them get the brass plug off in 5 years. Lol


 I do agree cap on no hub is a lot easer than a plug.


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## Redwood

plumbdrum said:


> I tell guys that all the time. Let's see them get the brass plug off in 5 years. Lol


I've never met a brass plug I couldn't get out yet...

They may have to be replaced afterwards but they will come out...:laughing:

Of course no-hub makes it so you don't have to...


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## plumbdrum

Redwood said:


> I've never met a brass plug I couldn't get out yet... They may have to be replaced afterwards but they will come out...:laughing: Of course no-hub makes it so you don't have to...


 Ha, a sawzall usually works. Lol


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