# Roots Gone and where to send cameras for repair



## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)




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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Below question is from Drain CCTV on my youtube channel. My response will be in the comments.

Its great that all you work, research, spending money & testing has led you to the point of being able to make your own flex shaft. If I understand correctly you managed to find a better flex shaft not used by the main drain equipment manufactures.

I think we all totally get you keeping what manufacturer, what cover & how to use your flex shaft for your course participants.

So that said, you use to be a fan of the Clog Dog flex shaft & machines, do you use them at all anymore?

What did you like & not like about their flex shaft, & of course not naming what flex shaft you use, can you tell us how your version works better, other than being cheaper to make?

Love seeing that flex shaft in action, keep up the great work.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

My response:

Dammit man.....you put some thought into that question...feel like I'm walking into a trap lol but here goes.

Stopped using the Clog Dog machine for the same reason I never bought a Picote....wasn't suited for my drain cleaning needs which is cleaning sewers from roofs. How is my setup better suited for my needs besides the cost? Smaller in size during use and storage, lighter in weight and can be carried from the van to ON the roof with 2 fingers....seriously 2 fingers....it's that light. Currently it's 125' because my original design was 150' but after 200+ uses the only component failure was having to cut 6" of flex shaft off the end so I shortened it up to save weight. It doesn't trip breakers or need a generator.

Not sure about the descaling yet.....only been on 47 descaling jobs, longest was 110' of 4" and the rest are 30"ish of 3" and it's held up with no issues but I don't think that's a proven track record to recommend it for descaling yet.

Also the flex shaft I use doesn't unravel when cut and I use it all the time in reverse....watch my videos close and you'll see.

So how much do I believe in my flex shaft machine? It's replaced my clog dog, GI industries and renssi flex shaft machines out of the van, and I would love to do a heads up challenge of Picote, Ridgid, Spartan, Milwaukee, Boldan GI Industries. I may not win every category but I know I won't be last. Heck it would be an awesome contest and really help plumbers make an informed buying decision.

Keep in mind, my class isn't for teaching you how to build my flexshaft....it's to teach you the principles of flexshaft and provide part numbers and items so you can build your own that fits your needs. What if your laterals are all 6" but only 50'....my design isn't the best for that but you'll know how to make one. What if your need is 2" kitchen drains....easy to design and easier to build.

Really flexshaft is what's generating the buzz for my class but I'm teaching new jetters, cameras, cable machines, sewer inspections...but wait there's more. None of these are on the market but easily to build once you know how.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Look man, flex shaft sounds great but if you can't unclog 10' of packed "oatmeal" and roots in cracked clay or busty crustacean, I mean rusty cast iron, than it's useless to most of us. 


We want to clear the pipe good and hopefully prevent a call back but at the end of the day roots or a cracked pipe means they should dig it up. Spending time with a high speed flex shaft to polish the inside of the pipe is just a waste of time. I am not going to unclog the line and then run a flexshaft. For one, I drive a standard size van and can't fit both, and two, fock that! I am too lazy to do that for the minimal benefit it will give.
















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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> Look man, flex shaft sounds great but if you can't unclog 10' of packed "oatmeal" and roots in cracked clay or busty crustacean, I mean rusty cast iron, than it's useless to most of us.
> 
> 
> We want to clear the pipe good and hopefully prevent a call back but at the end of the day roots or a cracked pipe means they should dig it up. Spending time with a high speed flex shaft to polish the inside of the pipe is just a waste of time. I am not going to unclog the line and then run a flexshaft. For one, I drive a standard size van and can't fit both, and two, fock that! I am too lazy to do that for the minimal benefit it will give.
> ...



I figured you drain guys would give the homeowner some miracle grow fertilizer in an unmarked jar and tell them to put it down the drain once a week to get them roots growing back fast for more cleaning calls...:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## Standard Drain (Feb 17, 2016)

As a drain cleaner I clean every pipe to my best ability; we dont do the quick in, quick out. If its done properly and you dont feel rushed because your billing correctly; I find that the quality of work is higher and you and the homeowner are happy. 

Flex shaft works great on roots; you can see that from Ben's videos. But most of my cleaning jobs are with the flex shaft cleaning 1 1/2- 2 inch galvanized sink lines. There is NO better product on 1 1/2- 2 inch cast or galv for cleaning out the black muck inside than the chains.

I think Ben's goal with his class is for a practical use for different items for the different situations in your daily jobs. 

I only have a 1/4 inch x 25 ft cable machine in my van now a day's for tub lines. The rest is flex shaft machines.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Standard Drain said:


> I only have a 1/4 inch x 25 ft cable machine in my van now a day's for tub lines. The rest is flex shaft machines.



So you're telling me, you unclog 4" main lines with a flex shaft? "Oatmeal", roots, wet wipes, tampooons, Etc.?





















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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

skoronesa said:


> So you're telling me, you unclog 4" main lines with a flex shaft? "Oatmeal", roots, wet wipes, tampooons, Etc.?


Nope....not every time. And sometimes a cable machine won't get that open either so you need a jetter. Then sometimes the jetter won't get it so you need a cable machine. There is no one size fits all solution.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

skoronesa said:


> Look man, flex shaft sounds great but if you can't unclog 10' of packed "oatmeal" and roots in cracked clay or busty crustacean, I mean rusty cast iron, than it's useless to most of us.
> 
> 
> *We want to clear the pipe good and hopefully prevent a call back but at the end of the day roots or a cracked pipe means they should dig it up.* Spending time with a high speed flex shaft to polish the inside of the pipe is just a waste of time. I am not going to unclog the line and then run a flexshaft. For one, I drive a standard size van and can't fit both, and two, fock that! *I am too lazy to do that* for the minimal benefit it will give.


So you recommend a dig up every time the line gets plugged because of roots?


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Standard Drain said:


> I think Ben's goal with his class is for a practical use for different items for the different situations in your daily jobs.


Close but not quite. 

This video is where I explain my class and even show flex shaft removing roots in a 6" pipe from a 2" roof vent which shows another advantage.....jetters and cable machines can't do that.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

gear junkie said:


> So you recommend a dig up every time the line gets plugged because of roots?



No, I usually tell them if this is the first issue they have had not to worry about it. If a line should be replaced I tell them it should be replaced but I also mention that snaking or jetting can take care of it when an issue occurs. Some just can't swing the cash it takes to dig so they pay a little each year to snake/jet the line.



I do have several regulars I service every 6months to a year when they clog. I have others I service preventatively every year before they come up for the season.


We don't do excavation although we will work with or sub out an excavator to replace a buried line. We do have the septic licenses necessary but we don't have the equipment. Worker shortages the past 30 years have caused us to narrow the scope of what we do. 





gear junkie said:


> Nope....not every time. And sometimes a cable machine won't get that open either so you need a jetter. Then sometimes the jetter won't get it so you need a cable machine. There is no one size fits all solution.



Sometimes a cable won't get it, that is correct. But, if the pipe isn't to the point that it needs replacement, is within 95'(the effective length of my cable), and it is 4" or smaller(I run a 5/8" cable), then I can confidently say that my snake will be able to deal with the issue. And I can also say that if it won't get it than the only other option is jet or dig.


So my question is this, is the flex shaft really as powerful as a standard snake cable? Can you honestly say that if you can't get it with the flex shaft it's not because it isn't as powerful as a snake?


My guess would be no. Every other aspect of a flexshaft seems better. light weight, cleaner, easier/safer to use, faster speed available for cleaning/polishing. But if it was really that much better than it would have taken off by now and replaced the traditional cable snake.


A flexshaft can't be as powerful as a snake for one main reason, for a given outer size the actual driven cable is smaller and thus weaker. And because it's weaker you can't drive it with as much torque. For a line that isn't full of sludge this may not be an issue because you just cut off a bit of the roots at a time and go foward slowly. But my 5/8" cable can churn "butter".














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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

I don't think Gear is trying to say flex shaft is the one or best tool for drain cleaning. It's the best that works for his jobs. 

I carry 2 snakes, a mini jetter, a 12gpm x 3,000psi jetter, a flex shaft for main lines and video inspection equipment. I have found that flex shaft does the best job of cleaning in the shortest time. If you're not running a camera after you snake a line then you don't really know how good of a job you're doing. I run the camera after every main line. 

I've run the camera after running the jetter with the warthog nozzle and found straggler roots left behind. Even after going slow and doing several passes. I've then put in the flex shaft and cut them out in seconds. 

Yes the snake will "churn butter" but nowhere near as effectively as a flex shaft. It's like comparing driving lag bolts with a ratchet vs an impact driver. If you're using a drum machine I'm guessing you're getting 350 rpm Max. A good 18v drill will easily put out 4x that speed. If you want torque then a right angle drill can provide that and speed. 

Here's a picture of a job I did this week. It's putting the best of both worlds together. The portability and speed of a drill with the convenience of only having to take 3 lengths of cable on the roof. This was at a church where the previous day a Plumbing company ran 110' of cable back and forth for over 5 hours and failed to unclog the drain. I found there was a soft blockage of wipes, tampons and other things from 30' to 37'. I unclogged it in 25 minutes including the time it took to set up my ladder. If I would have used the flex shaft I could've done it faster. Only reason I started with the cable was because I was expecting to go over 100 feet out.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

question, as i dont do drain cleaning and DONT do heights( yeah thats my weakness, but i dont like breaking any bones when you fall off)...why are you going through the roof to clear a clog under ground? no cleanouts avail?


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

I usually try going through a cleanout. This one I went through the roof because the toilet was a huge mess from sewage that came out of the floor drain, the roof was easily accessible since it was only 10' up where I set my ladder and the only cleanout was 2 feet inside a tile wall and it was the original cast iron. The cleanout was so inaccessible I would have spent more time removing the plug than I spent snaking.
I actually ran all 160' of camera into the line and didn't see a single cleanout in the buried line. I tried convincing them to put one in but they said it's been 10 years since the last clog so they weren't worried about it.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> I don't think Gear is trying to say flex shaft is the one or best tool for drain cleaning. It's the best that works for his jobs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





What I want to know is how often is the flexshaft not enough and you need to run a traditional snake after?


I don't really care what he carries in his box truck or extended van or even a standard size van. He just seems to be making some lofty claims about this flexshaft and as someone who is stuck with limited space and would prefer not to lug around something so heavy I am genuinely interested in this flexshaft as an alternative. But if it isn't really an alternative I want to know.


It all kind of seems like a stick measuring contest to prove that flexshaft is worth having on your van. There seems to be a lot of nonanswers.













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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Rooves around here aren't an option. Also, we have basements here. As sparse as the equipment is that I keep on my van I almost always solve the problem. 



For big lines, if the 5/8"x100' isn't enough than I am done, I tell them to call one of two companies that will jet and/or excavate.












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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

I don't know what he's done with his flex shaft but I can tell you I've UNCLOGGED plenty of lines with mine. Both with roots and wipes. Just like the difference between a drum machine and sectional machine there is a difference in how they're used. 

The flex shaft is not a torque monster, it a speed king. You aren't going to torque through a complete blockage with one. You have to grind it out. 

It all comes down to skills and experience. I could have probably unclogged that church drain using my drum machine. I have lots of experience using drums, sectionals, jetters and flex shafts. If I could only carry one type in my van it would be the flex shaft. Luckily I don't have to make that choice. 

If you're not out there trying to do the best cleaning for your customers and are just trying to unclog a drain then the investment probably wouldn't be worth it. If you want to be able to descale cast iron and cut roots tight to the joints then that would be who a flex shaft is for.


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> Rooves around here aren't an option. Also, we have basements here. As sparse as the equipment is that I keep on my van I almost always solve the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I don't do a lot of roof jobs. Only on 1 story houses with no accessible cleanouts. There are a lot of basements here too. That's why I got a k-60, I got tired of lugging around a 300 pound machine up and down stairs. I probably have to pull a toilet on half the mains I do and on some of the older houses I have to leave the k-7500 out of the bathroom because it won't squeeze through the narrow opening.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> I don't know what he's done with his flex shaft but I can tell you I've UNCLOGGED plenty of lines with mine. Both with roots and wipes. Just like the difference between a drum machine and sectional machine there is a difference in how they're used.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I get that it is ideal to cut out all the roots but that is not what I do or what we offer. For 95$/hr plus a 65$ snaking fee your toilets will drain again. Now if you want to pay someone north of 500$ to come properly clean the pipe than I will gladly tell you who to call. We charge 250$ to use the camera. Often I will run the camera the first time they have an issue without charging them so they can see what' going on without freaking out even more. Then if they call us back to locate they get the 250$ fee.


If you think I am not doing the job correctly than that is your opinion. But honestly, with how fast these coniferous roots grow it makes little difference. I have spent the time before to properly clean a pipe out and it didn't make much of a difference. And our customers don't care about that little benefit for the added cost. Often times it is a clay line any way and removing all the roots makes it weaker and more likely to collapse, seen that happen several times with 120yr+ old clay pipe.









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## Standard Drain (Feb 17, 2016)

Over the last 2 years of using flexshaft's; myself and others have probably experienced that the biggest weakness vs a traditional cable machine is the ability to penetrate through a tough clog. 

Cable machines have a much greater "pushing power" over a flexshaft. 

For me, I run a drill head chain on my flexshaft to help with this. But yeah; i would say anything over 100+ ft you might be better off using a jetter or a cable machine.


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## Standard Drain (Feb 17, 2016)

The great thing about this forum is that we all run/operate our businesses differently and can come here to converse.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

skoronesa said:


> So my question is this, is the flex shaft really as powerful as a standard snake cable? Can you honestly say that if you can't get it with the flex shaft it's not because it isn't as powerful as a snake?


You're trying to compare apples to oranges. The cable is made different and requires a different technique. The biggest disadvantage to flex shaft machines are the operators who try to use them like cable machines.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> question, as i dont do drain cleaning and DONT do heights( yeah thats my weakness, but i dont like breaking any bones when you fall off)...why are you going through the roof to clear a clog under ground? no cleanouts avail?


Yup many times no cleanouts and pulling the toilet is the last resort to access a drain.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Skoronsea...you've really missed quite a bit of what I said. 

I use homemade flex shaft machine
I use homemade cable machines
I use homemade jetter
I use homemade camera

All of the above wasn't just so much cheaper to make but has actually outperformed commercially produced tools. 

From what you wrote it sounds like you're content with how you're cleaning drains, just keep using what you're confident in.


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

[/quote said:


> I get that it is ideal to cut out all the roots but that is not what I do or what we offer. For 95$/hr plus a 65$ snaking fee your toilets will drain again. Now if you want to pay someone north of 500$ to come properly clean the pipe than I will gladly tell you who to call. We charge 250$ to use the camera. Often I will run the camera the first time they have an issue without charging them so they can see what' going on without freaking out even more. Then if they call us back to locate they get the 250$ fee.
> 
> 
> If you think I am not doing the job correctly than that is your opinion. But honestly, with how fast these coniferous roots grow it makes little difference. I have spent the time before to properly clean a pipe out and it didn't make much of a difference. And our customers don't care about that little benefit for the added cost. Often times it is a clay line any way and removing all the roots makes it weaker and more likely to collapse, seen that happen several times with 120yr+ old clay pipe.
> ...


 I'm not saying you're doing the job wrong. I'm saying you're not doing the job as well as could be done. If you're not running a camera after each snaking there's no way for you to know how much you've missed. I think that's not so farfetched of an idea, correct?


If I were only charging $95 per hour to snake those lines I'd probably not be inclined to do the job as I currently do it either. We live in different markets so I don't know if that's a high or low rate for your area. Around here that's an extremely low rate and I don't know anyone who would consider that anything but a loss leader. There are a few people here who do $99 drain cleanings but when they get in they try to sell them a new house, haha. 


That's not the way I work. I charge enough so that doing a video inspection is not an option, it's part of my service. I want to be able to show them the line is cleared and if additional work is needed. That way they don't call me back in a month after the line clogs again because they continued to flush wipes and tampons. If I have video proof showing that after I snaked there weren't any left they can't claim I didn't do the job right.

As for making a flex shaft, I'm not sure what they used. I got mine free from a friend of mine. His employees messed up a 100' length from a picote machine and I was able to salvage most of it. I've only spent money of chains and attachments. From what I hear you can make one using a drum cable and a specific type of pex. If you're not part of the Illuminati they won't tell you exactly what's needed, haha. That's their prerogative.


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## Standard Drain (Feb 17, 2016)

I always tell the customer there is a big difference in getting the line flowing and cleaning the line.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> question, as i dont do drain cleaning and DONT do heights( yeah thats my weakness, but i dont like breaking any bones when you fall off)...why are you going through the roof to clear a clog under ground? no cleanouts avail?


He lives in ideal location to be able to go from the roof. Over here most times roof slopes are very steep and that would be a problem. Then 5-6 months of the year there's snow. Roofs are steep to help keep snow off. A low pitched roof and you have a higher chance of the entire thing collapsing. I usually have to remove snow once or twice each winter but most people don't.


Then last issue newer houses are very freaking tall and have a bunch of angled parts. My GF's condo roof, the bottom part is about I'd say over 28 feet high. Makes me cringe just thinking about it.

Another ideal thing where he lives are outside clean outs.

I've never heard or seen a plumber in my area going through the roof.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> He lives in ideal location to be able to go from the roof. Over here most times roof slopes are very steep and that would be a problem. Then 5-6 months of the year there's snow. Roofs are steep to help keep snow off. A low pitched roof and you have a higher chance of the entire thing collapsing. I usually have to remove snow once or twice each winter but most people don't.
> 
> 
> Then last issue newer houses are very freaking tall and have a bunch of angled parts. My GF's condo roof, the bottom part is about I'd say over 28 feet high. Makes me cringe just thinking about it.
> ...





same by me, 95% of the roofs are HIGH in the sky and non walkable pitches, I have never seen a drain cleaned through the roof, but if your in an area of low roofs and low pitches go for it...


the bottom eves of my own house are 20 plus feet up and the roof goes up from there and tooo steep to walk on...


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

gear junkie said:


> Skoronsea...
> From what you wrote it sounds like you're content with how you're cleaning drains, just keep using what you're confident in.







V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> If you're not part of the Illuminati they won't tell you exactly what's needed, haha.





Precisely. I understand it's a secret he intends to make money from but he isn't going to make money from us, at least not 99% of us. As far as I know he is only giving classes to "local" guys. I just wish he had said that explicitly. It wasn't until last night that I had read the crap on the ridgid site where he is arguing with some other guy. I don't care about all that jazz. He is now saying I am not the type of guy who would try this sort of thing out, nothing could be farther from the truth. It's just his way of saying he won't tell me which snake cable/pex combo to use. If that's the way he wants to be I can't force it out of him. If there was a way to send him 20$ for the details of his flex shaft while I remain anonymous I would be in. I'm really interested in his home made drum snake.





I make stuff all the time and have tons of free pex at my disposal. We have a welder and my boss likes too make stuff to like his own sapulator or beer brewing stuff. If I told my boss about this and how we could charge an extra fee to descale pipes or get rid of 99% of the roots he'd be on board. 



Heck, he'd go along with it even if for not other reason than I am the only guy willing to snake drains at our company and I have been on call 24/7 for years. As he has put it I am a god send. But I am not willing to risk my solid reputation until I have all the facts. And so far getting all the facts on this lfex shaft has been like pulling teeth from a crocodile.













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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

skoronesa said:


> Precisely. I understand it's a secret he intends to make money from but he isn't going to make money from us, at least not 99% of us. *As far as I know he is only giving classes to "local" guys.* I just wish he had said that explicitly. *I'm not giving classes to only local guys....the class is for anyone willing to come down here. *It wasn't until last night that I had read the crap on the ridgid site where he is arguing with some other guy. *I'm not on the ridgid site anymore...quit that site maybe 2 years ago?* I don't care about all that jazz. He is now saying I am not the type of guy who would try this sort of thing out, nothing could be farther from the truth. *Nope, not what I said....I said from you wrote, it sounds like you're content.
> There's alot of indicators that make me think that but a big one is you described yourself as too lazy to run a cable machine and then a flex shaft.
> Once someone says that, it's my cue to move on.* It's just his way of saying he won't tell me which snake cable/pex combo to use. If that's the way he wants to be I can't force it out of him. If there was a way to send him 20$ *add a couple zeros in there....I'm worth more then that. *for the details of his flex shaft while I remain anonymous I would be in. I'm really interested in his home made drum snake. *I'm not using a homemade drum machine and never said or implied I was.*
> 
> ...


Skornsea...here's my question....how much is all the knowledge in your head worth? What would you say to the homeowner who asked you to teach them all your knowledge? What do you do at nights? I'm in the garage doing expirements, testing different material, different components then putting it together and testing that. Heck much of last week was testing a new leak locator I think I got figured out.....took about 15 hours to figure it....what should I do....just tell you how to build it out of the kindness of my heart? That was 15 hours I didn't spend with the family or just watching baseball etc. That flexshaft you want....yeah I got maybe 4 versions of that, countless hours etc.....so the reason I can teach someone to build one so quick, cheap and safe is because of all the previous versions where I learned what didn't work. 

Or I can do what other people are doing....putting 50' of standard drum cable in a piece of pex with a chain knocker and sectional cable reel and sell to plumbers for 600+. F that. you want to give your money to someone....go buy that those products. You want to build stuff yourself....I'm telling it can be done....but you go put in your own time....your own hard work figuring this out. Had a guy waste an hour of my time this morning just trying to farm info out of me....heard it before, throws all these compliments my way yada yada.....but that's a wasted hour of my time I didn't work on my business or my family. I'm not punching a clock here...everything I do is to become more efficient to provide better service for my customers which me to create a better way of life for my family. Telling a stranger my hard earned secrets for nothing in return isn't part of that equation.

You want to keep buying products at high prices for the rest of your working life or you want to invest in yourself and learn how to make it yourself for the rest of your working life?


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

gear junkie said:


> Skornsea...here's my question....how much is all the knowledge in your head worth? What would you say to the homeowner who asked you to teach them all your knowledge? What do you do at nights? I'm in the garage doing expirements, testing different material, different components then putting it together and testing that. Heck much of last week was testing a new leak locator I think I got figured out.....took about 15 hours to figure it....what should I do....just tell you how to build it out of the kindness of my heart? That was 15 hours I didn't spend with the family or just watching baseball etc. That flexshaft you want....yeah I got maybe 4 versions of that, countless hours etc.....so the reason I can teach someone to build one so quick, cheap and safe is because of all the previous versions where I learned what didn't work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


gear junkie. I am fully in support of you wanting to make money from all your hard work coming up with all your tools and methods to using them. 

I also must say that skoronesa has a point about it being for local guys. You did not say so but in reality it becomes too expensive for most people to go to your class if they have to travel for it. Also what if a guy is not interested in the jetter or drum part of your class and just want to try out your version of a flex shaft?

I wonder it there is any way you could/would sell your recipe for how to make your flex shaft in a way where a guy could pay you via PayPal or something and you could email the parts list and instructions on how to make it? Like me I still think it might be worth giving flex shaft a try and seeing your videos I think you have a lot of expertise and I think you might be right if you believe your flex shaft is better than a store bought one. So if you told me I could pay you for the knowledge on how to make a good flex shaft and with your fee and the parts it would also be cheaper than a store bought one then I might be tempted to jump in and give it a try and you would make more sales this way.

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

*Gear Junkie
*
*From what you wrote...see how I phrased that....it doesn't sound like you want facts....it sounds like you want the shortcut to the synthetic experience that took me a long time to figure out. Keep in mind that I've had 3 manufacturers and a possible fourth who have tried to talk to me because their engineers and staff couldn't figure this out. 
*

*is your design patented? or plans copyrighted?
*


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

I've thought about just offering a parts list but decided against it for a few reasons.

-I want the person to be successful with my design....not buy my product, have it fail and then happy to sell you another one. My fee is a one time cost so I have incentive for you to be successful. Consider how much conventional equipment cost.....heck.... the spartan M3 revolution is 7500, rated for 3"-6" but only 65'. but you want a flex shaft machine for smaller lines 1-1/4 - 3" so you get the Spartan M1 revolution. That's only 50 and cost you 4k. Now Picote has an online university and lots of products to offer but those will cost 11500 to clean 1-1/4 - 6" out to 65'. An alternative is I teach you how to build your own machine and now you can clean pipe out to 125'. But let's say you want to descale or do flexshaft with bigger pipe? No problem....same techniques and build your machine. Or you can move up to the picote maxi miller for 11k but also need a generator so add another grand. Point is we all have certain things that appeal to us. I'd rather learn how to fish then buy fish.

-By doing the class here, I have access to so many drains and sewers so I can offer realistic training....not just laying out the machine and telling you it's specs. This is super important and learned even more so at the first class. Having one of guys use the machine, I literally was behind him telling him to speed up slow down, push this one, not that etc. Keep in mind a $900 camera head is in the pipe with spinning chains....a simple mistake can cost you quite bit. The hands on training imo is a must. 

-I spent quite bit of time with some friends and industry associates who read much of my closest things but rarely ever changed or took action in what they were offered. Why because they were comfortable where they were at. 
I've seen this so often....how much information is there about losing weight and yet I'm still fat? I think the reason why is because people won't make a change or take action unless they make something important. If you're willing to make the trip here, it means you're serious and have some skin in the game and will take this class as serious as I do.

I'm not doing this class to have a fan base or audience watch me do product demonstrations. I want plumbers to come in, take serious notes, pepper me with a huge amount of questions and after the class, they're on their phone calling these places and placing orders for the products with zero markup. 

Look at leaktronics business model. Learn how to leak locate and they'll sell you all the tools. I'm doing the same thing but just telling you where to buy the tools with no markup.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> *Gear Junkie
> *
> *From what you wrote...see how I phrased that....it doesn't sound like you want facts....it sounds like you want the shortcut to the synthetic experience that took me a long time to figure out. Keep in mind that I've had 3 manufacturers and a possible fourth who have tried to talk to me because their engineers and staff couldn't figure this out.
> *
> ...


 Nope to both and after much research I think patents are only for those who have the money to defend them. Unfortunantly we tend to hang out in similar circles so the number of bankrupt patent owners is more then I wish I knew. I'm not even having NDA's signed. No point really....can't chase everyone down. When I started this, I thought each invention or gadget I did was the most amazing thing ever. Over time I've learned because I'm in the field the innovation doesn't stop....there will always be new ideas. But let's say some jerk off takes the class and blabs it all across the internet and I'm the sucker....no problem. I at least have their money and that's at least more then the manufactures have ever given me for the amount of my time I spent discussing and advertising their product that I paid full price for.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

gear junkie said:


> Nope to both and after much research I think patents are only for those who have the money to defend them. Unfortunantly we tend to hang out in similar circles so the number of bankrupt patent owners is more then I wish I knew. I'm not even having NDA's signed. No point really....can't chase everyone down. When I started this, I thought each invention or gadget I did was the most amazing thing ever. Over time I've learned because I'm in the field the innovation doesn't stop....there will always be new ideas. But let's say some jerk off takes the class and blabs it all across the internet and I'm the sucker....no problem. I at least have their money and that's at least more then the manufactures have ever given me for the amount of my time I spent discussing and advertising their product that I paid full price for.



patents arent that bad to get , but its to protect you....some one makes and patents your designs..then sues you for infringement...you lose...if you have it patented and some one copies it, they cant do anything with it but use it or sell the ones he makes..


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> patents arent that bad to get , but its to protect you....some one makes and patents your designs..then sues you for infringement...you lose...if you have it patented and some one copies it, they cant do anything with it but use it or sell the ones he makes..


look up "prior art"


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

gear junkie said:


> look up "prior art"



true but that goes back to, you dont have or dont want to spend the $$ for a lawyer to defend yourself..so you are hoping no one copies and tries to patent your design....also, how do you know you are the first to design these tools?? if you never did a patent search....




heres just some info on patents..
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...-patent-cost&usg=AOvVaw1sXbr_0ruwNTZf-uTZoOTm


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

skoronesa said:


> gear junkie said:
> 
> 
> > Skoronsea...
> ...


I know Gearjunkie personally.

He is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to drain cleaning and running a small business.
His classes are designed for small shops/business owners.

He is located in California, so most of the peeps in his class will be locals. Until he grows and expands his training network.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> true but that goes back to, you dont have or dont want to spend the $$ for a lawyer to defend yourself..so you are hoping no one copies and tries to patent your design....also, how do you know you are the first to design these tools?? if you never did a patent search....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 There a lot of parallel thinking in this industry and I get that but I've looked everywhere and don't see anysimilar designs with what I'm doing. I've done the patent search and actually that's something I do quite a bit. BTW....the patent is why I think the ridgid Trusense cameras came out....because the countplus system had the patent expire late Sep 2019. In other words it wasn't because of innovation they came out with those cameras but because the patent was about to run out. Or least that's what the voices tell me when I adjust my aluminum hat.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

gear junkie said:


> I've thought about just offering a parts list but decided against it for a few reasons.
> 
> -I want the person to be successful with my design....not buy my product, have it fail and then happy to sell you another one. My fee is a one time cost so I have incentive for you to be successful. Consider how much conventional equipment cost.....heck.... the spartan M3 revolution is 7500, rated for 3"-6" but only 65'. but you want a flex shaft machine for smaller lines 1-1/4 - 3" so you get the Spartan M1 revolution. That's only 50 and cost you 4k. Now Picote has an online university and lots of products to offer but those will cost 11500 to clean 1-1/4 - 6" out to 65'. An alternative is I teach you how to build your own machine and now you can clean pipe out to 125'. But let's say you want to descale or do flexshaft with bigger pipe? No problem....same techniques and build your machine. Or you can move up to the picote maxi miller for 11k but also need a generator so add another grand. Point is we all have certain things that appeal to us. I'd rather learn how to fish then buy fish.
> 
> ...







That's great and all man but not all of us live anywhere near you and still want to try building a flex shaft. I'm sorry if I offended you by offering 20$. It wasn't a firm number, it was just my way of saying I want an option to learn the secrets too even if it means paying. I know your time and effort are worth it and you want to capitalize on it. I think you'll find I have tons of posts(all over the web under the name skoronesa) on the things I make by hand and/or fix. I am a handy guy just like you. Mind you I have four kids now so fix it-build it time is very limited these days but I would love to be a garage inventor again.


I think you and I got off on the wrong foot and I apologize.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

That's just some stuff I have made and have pics for. I also made my own electric lawn mower that I have been using for like 4 years now.


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## gosaka (Aug 17, 2019)

DIY or die! Also I wanted to mention to Gear Junkie that I was very interested in his classes, but I really don't have the time/budget/energy to go to CA and attend. In any case, I think I have some inkling into design for the flexshaft. My current rough attempts work, maybe even better than some brands... in any case I will keep experimenting, maybe I can replicate his "good enough" for now. I will mention I have been dabbling in software and electronics regarding the camera systems, as well as hardware for "less civilized" snakes. think I might have some interesting ideas in the pipe


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

gosaka said:


> DIY or die! Also I wanted to mention to Gear Junkie that I was very interested in his classes, but I really don't have the time/budget/energy to go to CA and attend. In any case, I think I have some inkling into design for the flexshaft. My current rough attempts work, maybe even better than some brands... in any case I will keep experimenting, maybe I can replicate his "good enough" for now. I will mention I have been dabbling in software and electronics regarding the camera systems, as well as hardware for "less civilized" snakes. think I might have some interesting ideas in the pipe





is that your sphincter muscle cleaner?


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

I think it's for grating coconuts


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