# Discouraged Apprentice



## plumbbest51 (Nov 2, 2013)

I just started my fourth year as an apprentice in mn. I spent my first two years core drilling,fire caulking,digging,hauling pipe , that sort a thing. Ive done only commercial. My buddy owns a small residential shop and ive been helping him out doing basement rough ins and these guys can put in pipe fast! While im sitting here measuring center to center x1.414 and subtracting my fittings doing one joint and they got the dam whole bathroom done by then lol...... anyways my dwv piping sucks and i need to get better? What has helped you guys? When i get in offset situations i find myself just cutting several times to make it work. Also when i look at a bathroom group its hard for me to visualize how i would pipe it? I put in a transfer request from commercial to residential and it got accepted so im forcing myself to to learn that way. Is there any good books that will help? A standard center to center 45 degree offset i can do just fine but if i use a wye then over to a 45 does that same formula work..... this messagebis kinda all over the place but if anyone catches my drift any help would be appreciated. Or if you wanna make fun of me thars cool too lol


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Although you can't hide from the math, sometimes there is just no substitute for time and experience.

Don't give up.


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## anthony d (Nov 23, 2013)

While they may throw pipe in, how does it look? Is it quality workmanship? Take time in learning your craft, and take what you like and what you don't like and apply that to your work. It should take no longer to do 1.41 than it would to cut a gunner and eyeball it. Memorize your fitting takeoffs and makeups, and it will come easy.

The math comes in especially handy when you are working with larger pipe that you can't easily maneuver or recut if you cut it wrong the first time.


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## anthony d (Nov 23, 2013)

And yes, a 45 offset is a 45 offset. Your fitting takeoffs and makeups will change your pipe measurements.

Being able to visualize pipe layouts takes time, don't worry about it.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

If your cutting several times then your not pulling your measurements square.

In the rough it's difficult to hit true 45s because a lot of times the operators ditch isn't laser line true straight on the 45 offset your wanting to put in. Pulling a tape off of a square string line or batter board is going to be the closest you can get when there's nothing there.

Get the pipe running straight in the ditch and drop your plumb bob center of the pipe. What I usually do if its a short run is have my stub up piece already cut and ill dry fit a 90 on it for whatever size I'm running. Drop another plumb bob where your turning up and go ahead a plumb your riser up. Pull from whatever string your working off of for your center measurement from the same string you set your first bob on center. That gives center of your piping main and your branch where you are hitting a 45. Take off for your two 45s, get your difference in centers and times by 1.41

On wyes ill mark the ditch out accordingly before we start the excavation.

Once I pull all my measurements off of the prints I lay the whole bathroom group or whatever I'm running on graph paper and then transfer it to the dirt with marking paint so I can visualize what I'm putting in, it also helps the operator stay on point with his digging.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

I learned more about DWV and pipe work in general doing commercial work. The jobs are bigger and there is more emphasis on quality and the work looking neat.

Modern residential plumbing is "slamming" at best. I have never seen anyone break out a pad and paper to figure a 45 degree offset. They throw some 45s on and guess, then trim to fit.

My formula for 45 degree offsets

I don't use 1.414 in the field. I use .4 and add the center to center measurement. 

Take a center to center measurement. Let's say you get center to center measurement of 36 1/4 inches between a 2 inch stand pipe and 2 inch vent dropping down.

My way of doing the math would end up like this:
36.25 x .4 + 36.25 - 4 = 46.75

36.25 is your measurement 

Muiltiply that by .4

Add 36.25 to your answer, this is how we get the 1 muiltiplier back from our 1.414 equation.

Now subtract your takeoff for the pair of 2" 45s you will be using which is 2 inches per fitting, so 4

We end up with a piece to cut 46 3/4 inches.

Now if we sit down and figure it with the 1.414 equation

36.25 x 1.414 = 51.2575 minus our 4" takeoff we get 47.25 or 47 1/4 inches.

There is a diffrenece of 1/2 inch, but it's close enough and will give you offsets that look better than the guys that just guess. I find it easier to do the math in my head this way.

Clear as mud right?:yes:


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Ur just gonna mess him up. 

Stick with ur 1.414

Get a fitting book or download this 
At this site 

The fastest can be to draw a line on the wye. On the pipe on a run and one on the 45 branch. Measure from where the lines intersect to make up of the branch. It will give you the take off. Do this with any fitting 

http://www.charlottepipe.com/dimensional_catalogs.aspx


I would stay in commercial. Ul learn more and run more pipe


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

And learn how to use a folding ruler


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Yea the dam ruler. 

Are happy now RJ. Will u finally shut up about the ruler. It even has a slide out. Got it just for u. And have an inside read ordered


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

[quote="TX MECH ] The fastest can be to draw a line on the wye. On the pipe on a run and one on the 45 branch. Measure from where the lines intersect to make up of the branch. It will give you the take off. Do this with any fitting [/quote] 

I'm going to mess him up? WTH does this mean^?


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

That is a fine looking ruler.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Let him master. 1.414. And how and y it works how to do tack offs ect ect. Then give him short cuts. Lets not over load the apprentices


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

Meh, I just told him how I do it. We all have to find our own way. Some people suck at math, he can carry an abacus around the jobsite if that is what it takes.


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## almacneill (Nov 24, 2013)

Always keep in mind that 1.41 is just simple trigonometry.

Sin (of angle) = opp / hyp 

Therefore sin 45 deg = elevation difference / hyp

Or as the say .... Elevation divided .707, which is exactly the same as multiplying it by 1.41


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## plumbbest51 (Nov 2, 2013)

Is there any books that give you typical plumbing piping situations with examples on how to do it..


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## anthony d (Nov 23, 2013)

Like typical rough layouts? No, not really, since every situation is different. Your best bet is to get on a highrise. You will have a few different bathroom/kitchen layouts repeated floor after floor after floor, and will get the hang of it.

Hell, you can do what I did and start making drawings yourself and plumb it out in your head as practice. Are you going to apprentice school?


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

When starting a rough. Draw it out if its not drawn. Then lay out ur fittings like they will go. Making sure u have what you need and it's a code approved install. Pull measurements for walls. Paint lines for ditches and start digging. Then lay out all the fittings again and strt running pipe After time you will be able to visualize the install and skip laying them out and ul be faster. Might be kinda elementary to some but it works


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## JWBII (Dec 23, 2012)

I just use the construction calculator on my iPhone with 1.41 and I'm good to go. A lot of guys flintstone it in (my buddy calls it that and I love it lol) and end up just fine. Those guys have years of experience therefore are going to be faster. I prefer the math but that's just me and my preference.


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

Holy hell what is wrong with holding up a fitting and getting a measurement?! All that math man, all that math!


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

When in a mech room fitting 8" sch 40 u don't really want to hold the fitting up or cut twice. It's good to know the math and be able to use it when u have to.


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> When in a mech room fitting 8" sch 40 u don't really want to hold the fitting up or cut twice. It's good to know the math and be able to use it when u have to.


I can understand that, don't do much bigger than 6" and that is in the ground, not so much in the air.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

504Plumber said:


> Holy hell what is wrong with holding up a fitting and getting a measurement?! All that math man, all that math!


I know. It's bad enough trying to math out offsets when you're crawling in hand dug tunnels all dam day


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

If you want books with all of the fitting takeofffs and such,go to Charlottes web site,you can order all of their books for free and they'll send them to you in a few days,then start memorizing.


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## plumbbest51 (Nov 2, 2013)

Yes im in school . When looking at a bathroom group ive realized it can be plumbed a ton of different ways. I guess what ive gathered is as long as your vent is within the proper distance from the trap and your using the proper drainage fittings your good to go. I simply have not done it enough. If you give me a simple run like a combo of the main going and picking up a floor drain im fine....its just when you got a toilet,lav,tub,washer box etc,.. i get confused lol ... ......... let me give a scenario you have a 3 " main underground and you need to pick up a bathroom group . You could just simply combo off the main individually to every fixture and put a vent on each and it would work im sure theres other ways using alot less pipe but i guess that comes in time


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## plumbbest51 (Nov 2, 2013)

Im trying to put some pics on here but cant figure it out


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## plumbbest51 (Nov 2, 2013)




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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Yes. Vent every fixture. It's always the best way. Stack san tees in wall under slab for water closet and floor drains. Then arm over off the water closet vent for the lav drain. This works well on 1 story buildings


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## plumbbest51 (Nov 2, 2013)




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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

What fixtures is that. A washer box and laundry sink. Floor drain on other side. ?????


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## plumbbest51 (Nov 2, 2013)

On the abs to the far right is stacked tees lav and laundry tub...we didnt have a cross so just did that. The laundy tub and washer/dryer is the front side and the shower,lav,toilet is on the opposite side of the wet wall. The vent is crooked from the previous plumber lol. We always use uponor wirsbo for are water piping


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

http://www.charlottepipe.com/dimensional_catalogs.aspx

Did u look here 
They have ther books in PDF download. Like biz said u can have them ordered


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

The Stan pipe for the washer box is a bit short for my code


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## plumbbest51 (Nov 2, 2013)

Thanks tx i printed off a book. its not the take offs or the math for me its just how to pipe things is what slows me down.. knowing what i can and cant do... but ill get it one way or another. I do better being thrown into a situation .


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## plumbbest51 (Nov 2, 2013)

Minnesota has got like there own adopted plumbing code ... its supposedly stricter than most . We are suppose to be switching tho soon to follow the upc ?ipc? Dont remember


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## plumbbest51 (Nov 2, 2013)

If you want to use one of those cheater vents here you have to get approval from the "administrative authority" its called


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

plumbbest51 said:


> Thanks tx i printed off a book. its not the take offs or the math for me its just how to pipe things is what slows me down.. knowing what i can and cant do... but ill get it one way or another. I do better being thrown into a situation .


If you know the rules. Ur good. N San tee on its back. No flat vent until above flood level rim no wet vent except on fixtures on the same floor. No tieing in loop, circuit , revents till above flood leve rim. No in vented line in to a combo ect ect


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

1. Learn to draw correct isometric's. After I did, visualizing the plumbing in floors/ behind walls & how I would lay out became much easier. 
2. Bathroom group- 3" from toilet to main (shooting as straight as you can for it) 1st fixture down streem must be vented(usually the lav.) Then pick up your tub. 
In a repipe your usually going to go back pretty darn close to what was there. 
If adding new, see above.
If new construction, follow prints. 
We're plumbers not scientists reinventing the wheel here. I promise you won't run into anything that has never been seen or done before. 
Practicing on paper with your iso's is the fastest and cheapest way to get through the reps you need to become fluid (don't have to think, just do) give your papers to one of the JM in your group if they're good ones they'll have no problem talking you through you're mistakes and give you suggestions on how to improve. 
Also get a price list from your local supply house, find out how much a 90, wye, double wye, San-T, etc is. This will also explain why some fittings are used over others, & why you want to know what your doing before you start tossing fittings.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

Looks good, but here in Fl. I have to go 3" on laundry as soon as I go horizontal. Commercial & res. They just started enforcing it about 4yrs ago. A real pita in a retro.


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## LIQUID (Sep 26, 2013)

For the 45* try this method. For arguments sake lets pretend you are working with cast iron. 

Place the 2 45s together ( so back to a straight run with a 45* offset in it ) now measure from THIS centre to the centre of the desired run ( where you want the pipe to 45 to ) then x 1.414 THIS is the length you need to accomplish the offset. ( remebering that if you are using abs or similar you must add the hub engagement at both ends to the formula to get the proper length for the offset. ) this will wirk for a wye, or just 45s. Does this make sense how I've described it? My first j man I worked for long ago taught me this and also he often said "first get good, fast will happen with time. It means nothing if the work isn't done good first though" hope this helps.


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## LIQUID (Sep 26, 2013)

I forgot to mention also that for larger glued pipeing I find a set of chain vice grips is an excelent tool to give a handle on a pipe, or can be used as a temporary riser clamp ( obviouslly don't trust to much weight on it ) I find chain grips especially usefull for any large diameter pipe that is primed first as it is easy to be sure that the hub is properly and fully engaged and also I find It good for making sure any offset in the fitting is intended.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

I use a riser clamp as a temporary riser clamp


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

PlungerJockey said:


> I learned more about DWV and pipe work in general doing commercial work. The jobs are bigger and there is more emphasis on quality and the work looking neat.
> 
> Modern residential plumbing is "slamming" at best. I have never seen anyone break out a pad and paper to figure a 45 degree offset. They throw some 45s on and guess, then trim to fit.
> 
> ...


I like that PJ.

Here's my dads offset formula.

36.25x53=1921.25÷128=15.01+36.25=51.25-4"=47.25

He said you should do it this way once in a while to keep your brains from turning into mush.lol


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Once you get a simple offset down don't stop there. There is a rolling offset by far that screwed with me the worst then don't forget the formula for advancing multipule pipe offsets just remember on that one you take your spread x .4142 .the way I remember that one is you take the one off of the front and put a two on the back


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## LIQUID (Sep 26, 2013)

Use thw new centre method and it becomes less of a cluster of chaos. Works for 22* also x 2.613


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

I'm thinking you should be plenty discouraged now. Didn't go to college. (hates math) maybe I'll go into plumbing can't be to tuff. The"plumber" that came over too fix our toilet didn't seem all that bright & if he can do it.... LOL 


Poll some of the guys in your shop.
1. Do you know how to figure...
2. Is that the way you actually do it. 

I've seen guys that were license holders glaze over when you hit this stuff.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

wyrickmech said:


> Once you get a simple offset down don't stop there. There is a rolling offset by far that screwed with me the worst then don't forget the formula for advancing multipule pipe offsets just remember on that one you take your spread x .4142 .the way I remember that one is you take the one off of the front and put a two on the back


Can u explain the .4142? I


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Here we go again.. didn't we had a thread regarding same about 15 pages long...


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

O suck it RJ 
We had one over 1.414. A2+b2=c2. But I don't recall hearing this formula.


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## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

I don't calculate anything. Try to line up your fittings when eyeing them out then measure. Takes some practice but eventually you will be pretty close consistently.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Oh hell, just get out of new construction and come over to repair. The only math you need to know in service is how to figure your commission from each job and how you're going to spend that fat check. My brain is hurting from reading all the different ways to get to the same answer. 

I will let the new construction guys do the hard math with all the crazy offsets while I jet out said offsets when they fill with sludge.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*I cant remember the math any more*



AKdaplumba said:


> I don't calculate anything. Try to line up your fittings when eyeing them out then measure. Takes some practice but eventually you will be pretty close consistently.


 
I dont remember the math any more, its all gone out the door a long time ago...


generally I can measure by sight, and can trim as needed..... 

the best thing you need is a good tape measure and 
a real sharp hack-saw with a lennox blade in it ......:thumbsup:


Learn to cut PVC pipe straight and fast with
a Hack saw and you will do fine... 

you need a good firm grip
on the pvc pipe with your left hand hand and a strong stroke with 
your hack saw in the other .....
(if you are left handed ---reverse the process)


also .....use plenty of primer and glue.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Oh hell, just get out of new construction and come over to repair. The only math you need to know in service is how to figure your commission from each job and how you're going to spend that fat check. My brain is hurting from reading all the different ways to get to the same answer.
> 
> I will let the new construction guys do the hard math with all the crazy offsets while I jet out said offsets when they fill with sludge.


Come on man!

It ain't that bad, especially when you do all that math and it falls in like its suppose to be there, fits like a glove!

Wish I could have been able to bring a camera into the refinery I was on over the summer. The racks of 12- 3/4" 316 stainless with all the bends we were making looked machined, it was amazing.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Plumberman said:


> Come on man!
> 
> It ain't that bad, especially when you do all that math and it falls in like its suppose to be there, fits like a glove!
> 
> Wish I could have been able to bring a camera into the refinery I was on over the summer. The racks of 12- 3/4" 316 stainless with all the bends we were making looked machined, it was amazing.


Haha. I was just messing around. Beautiful looking work, by the way. 

I liked new construction for a short time in Montana but it got monotonous. I am also slow. My talent lies in diagnostics and service which is where I have spent the bulk of my career. 

I am steadily impressed by the talent on this site with the new construction guys. Its a rough and demanding job and I am glad there are plenty of guys to do it. The math you guys know is also impressive.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Haha. I was just messing around. Beautiful looking work, by the way.
> 
> I liked new construction for a short time in Montana but it got monotonous. I am also slow. My talent lies in diagnostics and service which is where I have spent the bulk of my career.
> 
> I am steadily impressed by the talent on this site with the new construction guys. Its a rough and demanding job and I am glad there are plenty of guys to do it. The math you guys know is also impressive.


I've done it all, and service treated me well for a while..

For me and my family now a days new work is where I'm most comfortable. 

Every day is a good day when we can all get up and go make a buck or two for our families..


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Can u explain the .4142? I


you take the spread x .4142 that gives you the amount that you must advance the second pipe to keep the same spread. So if you have four lines at 12 in spread the second line would have to advance 4.9705 in to keep the the even spread. Then you would simply add that 4.9705 to each one on top of the previous number.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I eye it and get it perfect. Especially with PVC. I find it matters the order I put stuff together in, much more important than trying to measure it.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

wyrickmech said:


> you take the spread x .4142 that gives you the amount that you must advance the second pipe to keep the same spread. So if you have four lines at 12 in spread the second line would have to advance 4.9705 in to keep the the even spread. Then you would simply add that 4.9705 to each one on top of the previous number.


That's great. Thanks.


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## Prof.plumb (Apr 5, 2012)

1.414-fitting allowances(pipe diameter as a shortcut)has always worked like a charm for me. As far as rough in layouts, it's all time and experience.


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## LIQUID (Sep 26, 2013)

If you use the fitting together to form your "new" centre then you need only to add the hub engagement ( or not In the case of cast iron ) as you have already used the offset in the equasion. I use a scrap peice to hold the 2 45s together if I am doing a long offset. ( dry fit ) . But as others have said l, there are many ways to achieve this and you gotta do what works best for you.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Plumberman said:


> If your cutting several times then your not pulling your measurements square.
> 
> In the rough it's difficult to hit true 45s because a lot of times the operators ditch isn't laser line true straight on the 45 offset your wanting to put in. Pulling a tape off of a square string line or batter board is going to be the closest you can get when there's nothing there.
> 
> ...


No this takes way to much time,it will work but it’s faster and better to just put up a straight string line really tight and take your two ft or 4ft level and level down to center,much faster than plum bobs IMO


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> When in a mech room fitting 8" sch 40 u don't really want to hold the fitting up or cut twice. It's good to know the math and be able to use it when u have to.


Absolutely,this is THE y way to do big pipe


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