# 1st Boiler Install



## Carcharodon (May 5, 2013)

Installed my first boiler system with a Journeyman plumber. I have helped out before but this is the first time I was heavily involved, ran all the gas from the meter, did some of the water, recirc tie ins with expansion tank. 
I have done loads of bradford white water heaters but no boilers. I really enjoyed it, it makes a big difference not only knowing how to do the work but why you are doing certain things. Some pics...


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

So its a large water heater set up?? Expanison tank too small for the system.. wrong aquaset .. the type u used is for at tank.. should've use the surface mount type for better temps contact.. ur re circ line is confusing with check valve on larger line.. glav pipes for gas line?? Large system like this using reguired temp gage..


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## LIQUID (Sep 26, 2013)

As noted these look like water tanks, not boilers.. and galvanized pipe is not suitablle for gas, it flakes off inside and plugs orifices.


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## Carcharodon (May 5, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> So its a large water heater set up?? Expanison tank too small for the system.. wrong aquaset .. the type u used is for at tank.. should've use the surface mount type for better temps contact.. ur re circ line is confusing with check valve on larger line.. glav pipes for gas line?? Large system like this using reguired temp gage..


put the claws back buddy, yea it is a larger water heater set up i suppose, its just that we replacd a boiler set up and this has similar comparisons to a boiler but i understand your point.
Expansion tank was seizes accordingly, what should it be ?
Is the Aquaset wrong or is it just your opinion that a better one could be used ?
Whats wrong with galv pipes for gas line, its what is used here, i would of prefered gastite if i had my way but it is what was called for, what would you recommend.
Temp gage ?

Iam here to learn not to be belittled so any positive feedback and info is always welcome. I obviously dont have the experience and expert knowledge as some, as easy as it is to tear someone down it might feel good to try and pass on knowledge with clear explanations.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

It's a pretty tough crowd here. Perfect work gets picked apart. Take RJ's word to heart, he is a Pro and is the worlds leading expert on folding rulers.

I don't know about your area, but galvanized pipe for gas has been illegal since they started pumping out of the ground.

Grow some thicker skin, after someone tears your work apart someone else will be along to explain. Be patient, sometimes it takes days even weeks.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

I would take RJ's advice. I know a lot about boilers and so do many other members. But RJ is in my opinion far more advanced than me and I've been doing this for over 3o years. And this is your what 1st?


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## LIQUID (Sep 26, 2013)

To my knowledge galvanized has never been aproved for gas piping. Typicallly this is done with black iron.


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## dclark (Dec 12, 2010)

Nice install.
The aquastat in an immersion well is fine imo, good response to temp changes, I prefer them to the surface strap on ones. Or you could consider the smaller pumps with the integral timer/temp controls. Lower flow rates on recircs = longer copper life.

We cannot use galvanized on gas here either, but I know it’s accepted in some areas. 3 inch dirt pockets are minimum here (shorter on your appliances).
Here is a site with expansion tank sizing. Most of the mfgs have similar.
http://www.amtrol.com/support/therm_res_sizing.html
Bigger is better with exp tanks, unless you’re wanting to replace the tanks within the warranty. To my eye, yours looks to be pretty close to spec (assuming it’s residential).

Combustion air, the systems I’ve installed / serviced seem to stay cleaner on the fireside and flame sense if you spend the extra and take it from outside so it’s not subject to whatever the homeowner or janitor decides to store in there.

Nice with the housekeeping pads, we have to run the relief valves to the floor drain here, not splash on the floor.

On the seismic strapping, looks solid, my preference is unistrut or the like. Your 2x4 backing will work fine, but mine will look better. J

Nice neat install, most of the jobs I get aren’t budgeted for propress, so I'm a little jealous!

Regards.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

Galvanized can be used for gas it is almost exclusively used here for outdoor applications above grade. It all depends on the area you are in. To say across the board it is not allowed is absurd.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

love2surf927 said:


> Galvanized can be used for gas it is almost exclusively used here for outdoor applications above grade. It all depends on the area you are in. To say across the board it is not allowed is absurd.


True but given a choice, I would just paint black iron. That's just me though


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Can't use galv here. Black pipe all the way poly underground and we don't install csst or gas tight


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

MTDUNN said:


> True but given a choice, I would just paint black iron. That's just me though


Is it allowed in your area? Biased? I live near the coast in California and I have never seen or heard of any issues. How does that paint hold up to salty ocean air?? Galvy doesn't last forever either. I just think your location should be the deciding factor. Here I don't like to use black because even when it's inside in attics and such it gets all rusty from the salty air, galvy is the go to here, I almost always use it. Have you ever heard of or seen galvy cause problems in gas controls?


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

love2surf927 said:


> Is it allowed in your area? Biased? I live near the coast in California and I have never seen or heard of any issues. How does that paint hold up to salty ocean air?? Galvy doesn't last forever either. I just think your location should be the deciding factor. Here I don't like to use black because even when it's inside in attics and such it gets all rusty from the salty air, galvy is the go to here, I almost always use it. Have you ever heard of or seen galvy cause problems in gas controls?


I was a gas inspector for Washington Gas when I lived near D. C. And Galvanized pipe is a big no no there.

There was no galvanized pipe at any of their warehouses. And galvanized is not accepted in most jurisdictions around D. C. But we had a lot of grey paint!!

I've seen it used here in Oregon. But I won't use it mainly because of habit. 

Does it flake? Yes it does and if it gets in a regulator, you're fooked


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

MTDUNN said:


> I was a gas inspector for Washington Gas when I lived near D. C. And Galvanized pipe is a big no no there.
> 
> There was no galvanized pipe at any of their warehouses. And galvanized is not accepted in most jurisdictions around D. C. But we had a lot of grey paint!!
> 
> ...


I have never seen or heard of issues with flaking here and it is actually very popular here and I prefer it as I've never had issues with it, again I'm in Southern California. I think (I'm speculating as my sources are basically hearsay) it has to do with either the sulfur content or moisture content I'm not sure which, if either. Maybe someone knows this type of stuff always puzzles me how it could be so different regionally.

Just to be clear I am not questioning you I'm just asking for my own knowledge, it is very interesting to me how materials can differ so much in different locales.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

love2surf927 said:


> I have never seen or heard of issues with flaking here and it is actually very popular here and I prefer it as I've never had issues with it, again I'm in Southern California. I think (I'm speculating as my sources are basically hearsay) it has to do with either the sulfur content or moisture content I'm not sure which, if either. Maybe someone knows this type of stuff always puzzles me how it could be so different regionally.
> 
> Just to be clear I am not questioning you I'm just asking for my own knowledge, it is very interesting to me how materials can differ so much in different locales.


I've unscrewed and cut out plenty, and never seen it flake.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

love2surf927 said:


> I have never seen or heard of issues with flaking here and it is actually very popular here and I prefer it as I've never had issues with it, again I'm in Southern California. I think (I'm speculating as my sources are basically hearsay) it has to do with either the sulfur content or moisture content I'm not sure which, if either. Maybe someone knows this type of stuff always puzzles me how it could be so different regionally. Just to be clear I am not questioning you I'm just asking for my own knowledge, it is very interesting to me how materials can differ so much in different locales.


so what do you do when you get into a gas line that is 6 in or so?


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

wyrickmech said:


> so what do you do when you get into a gas line that is 6 in or so?


I'm strictly residential and light commercial I don't usually see anything over 2".


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Install 6" poly


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Carcharodon said:


> Installed my first boiler system with a Journeyman plumber. I have helped out before but this is the first time I was heavily involved, ran all the gas from the meter, did some of the water, recirc tie ins with expansion tank.
> I have done loads of bradford white water heaters but no boilers. I really enjoyed it, it makes a big difference not only knowing how to do the work but why you are doing certain things. Some pics...
> 
> View attachment 28765
> ...


Technically those probably wouldn't be considered boilers , those are probably 199,999 btu stainless steel tank water heaters . Here in Texas anything under 199,999 isn't considered a boiler technically . Those HTP are very good heaters I have installed them .Knowing what you have installed a 10 gallon expansion tank would work but I can't tell what size you have there just from a picture. As for the galvanized everyone has an opinion, doesn't make it a fact . Every area has different codes for different reasons. Looks good.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Install 6" poly


what if it is on a roof? Would you run poly there ? Galvanized has been outlawed here for quite some time. The additives in natural and LP eat away at the galvanized coating and it flakes. We used to make final connections with soft copper to water heaters but the additives do the same thing to copper. Black steel is the only approved product here and has been that way for a long time. I guess the new track pipe and products like it are approved but I think the end product makes you look like a hack if you put that stuff in.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

O. On a roof 2" and down Blk threaded. 2 1/2" and up is welded. Tested to 80psi. Expansion loops over sized clamps. And iron body stops 

Can't use galv here ether


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> O. On a roof 2" and down Blk threaded. 2 1/2" and up is welded. Tested to 80psi. Expansion loops over sized clamps. And iron body stops Can't use galv here ether


on good jobs here we are required to place roller blocks on the roof. I personally don't like the way two hole straps look on blocks. I normally use the foam block with unistrut built in it strut clamp down the next size larger pipe just 3 in piece. That allows the line to slide and the block doesn't rock on the rubber roof. Steel on steel is best.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Do you butt weld 1 1/2"?

Edit: after some answers, I'll tell you why I left the gas company as an EMSL gas inspector.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

MTDUNN said:


> Do you butt weld 1 1/2"?


only on high pressure gas inside walls or in a open plenum


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

wyrickmech said:


> only on high pressure gas inside walls or in a open plenum


i prefer socket fittings when it goes under 11/2


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

wyrickmech said:


> on good jobs here we are required to place roller blocks on the roof. I personally don't like the way two hole straps look on blocks. I normally use the foam block with unistrut built in it strut clamp down the next size larger pipe just 3 in piece. That allows the line to slide and the block doesn't rock on the rubber roof. Steel on steel is best.


Yes I've done those blocks and the roller type and just plain 4x4 lumber blocks. I prefer the foam blocks my self. Less crap to mess with the the rollers I've used these cheesy plastic squar thing with a notch on the top. It's what ever is spect out. I miss running lots if gas. I use to set lots of rtu and make up air units. Lots of trains and aaon units. Actually running gas in a ford house mechanic shop this week


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

wyrickmech said:


> only on high pressure gas inside walls or in a open plenum


I would have failed you in Northern Virginia.

I inspected a 29 floor office building in Arlington. The previous inspector let 51 butt weld joints on 1 1/2" high pressure EMSL lines pass. I told the contractor in charge hey all have to be cut out and re welded with socket couplings. 

"The other inspector said it was ok"

"I'm not the other inspector."

I call Washington gas head weld inspector, he comes out and x rays a few joints. 

Washington Gas had their welders out there the next day cutting it all out and installed 102 socked couplings and back charged the contractor for it. 

I was not liked on that job and was threatened a few times by mechanical contractor till I told him I'm gonna get VDOT involved.

"Want $2000 a joint fine on top of it?"

Can't butt weld 1 1/2" on high pressure anywhere. In the DC Metro area.

2" is ok


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

MTDUNN said:


> I would have failed you in Northern Virginia. I inspected a 29 floor office building in Arlington. The previous inspector let 51 butt weld joints on 1 1/2" high pressure EMSL lines pass. I told the contractor in charge hey all have to be cut out and re welded with socket couplings. "The other inspector said it was ok" "I'm not the other inspector." I call Washington gas head weld inspector, he comes out and x rays a few joints. Washington Gas had their welders out there the next day cutting it all out and installed 102 socked couplings and back charged the contractor for it. I was not liked on that job and was threatened a few times by mechanical contractor till I told him I'm gonna get VDOT involved. "Want $2000 a joint fine on top of it?" Can't butt weld 1 1/2" on high pressure anywhere. In the DC Metro area. 2" is ok


 I hate to be the bearer of bad news but you can but weld 11/2 the welding process has very little to do with the type of fitting and a lot to do with the filler material. I have butt welded 1/4 in before. As long as the filler metal is as thick as the base metal it is fine. The only reason that a butt weld would fail a x ray is if you had a hack welder. High pressure gas is 2 psi and above sch 40 steel is rated way beyond these requirements a butt weld fitting is rated for 125 psi no matter what the size. And what does Virginias highway department have to do with it?


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

wyrickmech said:


> I hate to be the bearer of bad news but you can but weld 11/2 the welding process has very little to do with the type of fitting and a lot to do with the filler material. I have butt welded 1/4 in before. As long as the filler metal is as thick as the base metal it is fine. The only reason that a butt weld would fail a x ray is if you had a hack welder. High pressure gas is 2 psi and above sch 40 steel is rated way beyond these requirements a butt weld fitting is rated for 125 psi no matter what the size. And what does Virginias highway department have to do with it?


What side of the meter?


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

MTDUNN said:


> What side of the meter?


 it dose not matter but all the work we do around here is costumer side.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

wyrickmech said:


> it dose not matter but all the work we do around here is costumer side.


Maybe it doesn't matter in your neck of the woods. 

A welding license is hard enough to get. A welding license for Washington gas is one of the hardest and most prized to get. 

And it is stated in their code that 1 1/2" must be welded with socket fittings. 

I can't speak for the house side of the meter where a Washington gas welding license is not a requirement and was not my jurisdiction. Local codes apply to the house side.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

MTDUNN said:


> Maybe it doesn't matter in your neck of the woods. A welding license is hard enough to get. A welding license for Washington gas is one of the hardest and most prized to get. And it is stated in their code that 1 1/2" must be welded with socket fittings. I can't speak for the house side of the meter where a Washington gas welding license is not a requirement and was not my jurisdiction. Local codes apply to the house side.


 a certification as a pipe welder is required here no matter what side of the meter it is. In my neck of the woods the only reason you would use socket weld fittings is because of pressure ratings. For instance liquid lines off of liquid petroleum are required to be 3000 psi rated. They also require a 1100 psi pressure test for 24 hours. But once the gas goes threw the vaporizer it can be sch40 butt weld fittings. One gas company still acetylene welds there services lines all sch 40. Ameren UE butt welds all service lines under 60 psi. And what did the highway department have to do with your inspection?


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Ok it's jurisdictional. I went by the book. The gas company had my back.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

California allows galvy but hey, it's California where they allow just about anything as long as it has earthquake straps :laughing:


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