# Desperately need help ! Job at stake



## thomascarter198 (Jun 7, 2015)

Hey guys this is my first post on here. I was currently hired to do plumbing work on a hospital in maryland. It's goverment scale pay and it's by far the best thing that's ever happened to me. I got into alot of trouble when I was younger and have slowly climbed up to over 45 k a year. The issue I'm having is I don't have much exp in running cast iron over head. This is what we have been put on first to start the job out. We are useing pretty much no anchors and all kendor with clevis hangers. All of our material has been pre cut and and delivered in what's called spools . All the fittings and layout has been completely figured out for us. Our job is to pretty much snap it together at the exact distances and heights they require. I was told on Friday I'm not producing enough and have another week to prove my self . I can't exsplain how devastated I will be if I lose this job . I'll lose everything I have . Please give me any tips and tricks you can think of in running cast iron over head. Exact methods you use to save time. Tricks to save time . ANY AND EVERYTHING you feel will save me time and make me become more productive . Thanks


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## Kleinfelterj (Jan 23, 2012)

If the pieces are all cut and the fittings are there for you then it should be just wrenching no hubs together and connecting the dots. Your pretty vague with your description as far as "over head installation". Lay your fittings out on the floor and put together as much as possible on the floor.


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## Kleinfelterj (Jan 23, 2012)

Lay out and cutting pieces is what takes the most time. So they already did that part for you


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

It's all in the hangers and reading a print. But like said before your being vague . What are you anchoring to (assuming concrete)? What are they supplying to you for anchors? Is it No Hub, bell and spigot with lead and oakum, gaskets?


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## JWBII (Dec 23, 2012)

Do they not have any jobs that fit within your range of experience. Then let you work under someone that can teach you layouts and running material such as you're describing rather than threatening to fire you?


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## Pac-12 (May 10, 2015)

Dude...This trade requires "one" to have prior knowledge of said "work" before one actually attempt's to put it together. It all looks easy, anyone can put two pieces of pipe together right? My advice: Go back to your skill level, it is called apprenticeship for a reason. If you do not know you do not know...there is very little "faking it till u make it" in this trade. It's cast...you do not get much easier...It unfortunately is dog eat dog ...in the prev. wage world. You gotta be good...i know i am a prev. wage whore....KillaCali is off the hook with work,,,,just sayin.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

thomascarter198 said:


> Hey guys this is my first post on here. I was currently hired to do plumbing work on a hospital in maryland. It's goverment scale pay and it's by far the best thing that's ever happened to me. I got into alot of trouble when I was younger and have slowly climbed up to over 45 k a year. The issue I'm having is I don't have much exp in running cast iron over head. This is what we have been put on first to start the job out. We are useing pretty much no anchors and all kendor with clevis hangers. All of our material has been pre cut and and delivered in what's called spools . All the fittings and layout has been completely figured out for us. Our job is to pretty much snap it together at the exact distances and heights they require. I was told on Friday I'm not producing enough and have another week to prove my self . I can't exsplain how devastated I will be if I lose this job . I'll lose everything I have . Please give me any tips and tricks you can think of in running cast iron over head. Exact methods you use to save time. Tricks to save time . ANY AND EVERYTHING you feel will save me time and make me become more productive . Thanks


 










We'd like an introduction first, it's the internet version of a handshake.

How much overhead DWV work have you done? Plastic, cast iron, or whatever; the material is irrelevant. The basic principles are the same. I've done hospital work. Everything is figured out for the journeymen; the elevations are there so all the trades stay out of each others way. And with pre-cut pieces it's even easier. One job that I was on, the cast iron fittings were numbered and we followed a sheet. Journeymen on these types of jobs are basically connecting tinker-toys. 

Maybe you and any apprentices that you have working with you need to pick up the pace. Move quicker with your level. Drill and install the hangers then start slinging pipe. Torque the bands till you get {2} clicks on your no-hub tool, then move on. 

Are you cutting all the threaded rod at one time? That is faster. Get your first hanger set, measure that threaded rod, then deduct about 1" or so {you figure out the fall} for the next hanger, and so on. Get all the rod cut, put the nuts and washers on the rod with the hanger and install them. Once that is done, slinging pipe goes quickly.

Who's laying out? Do you have a laser level? We used to snap chalk lines on the slab, then transfer those lines up to the ceiling with a laser level. Figure out your 45's, wyes, etc. on the floor, then transfer those marks up to the ceiling.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Have you had a chance to observe the bigger producers on this job? What are they doing that YOU should pick up? Like Tommy & PlumDrum said, it's about prints & hangers. Don't waste yer time trying to take measurements up on a ladder or lift. Do the layout on the ground, snap lines, then use your laser to transfer the marks to the ceiling. Pre-cu your rod. Once ya know the first piece it's easy to add or subtract for each successive piece. Pre-assemble your hangers on the rod. Use a 5lb mall to set your drop pins, don't try doing it with a regular hammer. If you take the time to lay out & get yer hangers up, the pipe will fly together!!!!


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## thomascarter198 (Jun 7, 2015)

@pac-12 I have been doing plumbing for over 15 years now and am a master plumber. Just having some difficulty with this one part of the job, and looking for advice on how to work more efficiently because i am still somewhat young. Not asking how to do it. If you will read above, i stated "...please give me tips and tricks to run cast iron overhead... Tricks to save time...any and everything you feel will save me time and make me more productive." I fully deserve this job I have and am fully qualified. It is this ONE aspect of the j o b that I am extremely unfamiliar with.


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## Mykeeb33 (Mar 6, 2015)

I think you have been given some excellent advice here, but there is no magic formula to make things go faster. You're either smart enough to learn from good journeymen, or you're not. I assume you did not serve an apprenticeship? Also, a master plumber doesn't need to ask this kind of question.


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## thomascarter198 (Jun 7, 2015)

Mykeeb33 said:


> I think you have been given some excellent advice here, but there is no magic formula to make things go faster. You're either smart enough to learn from good journeymen, or you're not. I assume you did not serve an apprenticeship? Also, a master plumber doesn't need to ask this kind of question.


Yes, some excellent tips. One thing I don't quite understand. You are saying that Master Plumbers don't/cant ask for tips? That because i am a master plumber i should automatically know every trick in the book? One thing that I KNOW about any and all professions is that there is always room for growing and learning. I have done mostly residential my whole life and a good bit of smaller scale commercial work. This is my first large commercial job. I know how to run cast iron. I know how to hang piping with the correct ammount of grade. I know how to be neat and have my work complimented. The only thing I was looking for here was some personal "trade secrets" from some of the other members here. I guess you always get a few haters though, that can't help but be negative and post pointless/off topic comments .


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

You need to learn how to walk before you can run - sounds like u still crawling brother .


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## thomascarter198 (Jun 7, 2015)

plumbdrum said:


> It's all in the hangers and reading a print. But like said before your being vague . What are you anchoring to (assuming concrete)? What are they supplying to you for anchors? Is it No Hub, bell and spigot with lead and oakum, gaskets?


I am anchoring to pieces of kendor going between steel beams. Useing 3/8 rod and clevis hangers. No hub cast iron. Useing a laser to get me plumb on my runs. I pre cut my rod before going up the ladder . I use a wrench that fits both 3/8 nuts and the bottom of beam clamps. Magnetic level to get my kendor level. I put the beam clamps facing up and clamp the kendor down so that the bottom of the kendor rests on the beam and the rod clamps it down tight. We are useing what's called "smeg" to lubricate and seal the gaskets . Messy stuff. I lose alot of time carrying it up and down ladders and very cautiously setting it some where to apply to pipe. Use a paint brush to do so. I've been having issues with getting my 3/8s nuts started on the rod from time to time. I bought a file today to file down the ends if needed . Any tips on cutting rod with a bandsaw to get more of a perfect cut ? I've cut tons of rod over the years but never this much. I'd say almost 95% of all of our pipe is hung off kendor and clevis hangers . Which equals an extreme ammount of rod to be cut. I also cut my rod more than one at a time . I'd love to get a battery operated dewalt portaband and install a small vise on my cart to save time going back a forth from the cutting station. I contemplated on buying a laser measurement tool today to measure down for my hangers instead of pulling a tape down everytime , anyone had any luck with them ? . I think j may also make a mark on my ladder at a certain easy to remember height to save time stretching the tape down too. To be honest my issue has been lack of sleep due to my son getting severely sick then me . On top of that we've had a crazy ass neighbor causing problems for us . Like I've said a few times now I'm just looking for personal short cuts and tricks you guys use . Thanks


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

To be honest, some guys have a talent for production work and some guys do not. You've heard all of the advice now go use it. If you don't make it, don't fail for not giving it your all.

Mark


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## Gruvplumbing (Dec 26, 2013)

Try running a nut on your all thread befor you cut it. That way after you make your cut you just run your nut off the cut end and it will straighten your last couple threads that get bent from cutting your all thread.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

thomascarter198 said:


> I am anchoring to pieces of kendor going between steel beams. Useing 3/8 rod and clevis hangers. No hub cast iron. Useing a laser to get me plumb on my runs. I pre cut my rod before going up the ladder . I use a wrench that fits both 3/8 nuts and the bottom of beam clamps. Magnetic level to get my kendor level. I put the beam clamps facing up and clamp the kendor down so that the bottom of the kendor rests on the beam and the rod clamps it down tight. We are useing what's called "smeg" to lubricate and seal the gaskets . Messy stuff. I lose alot of time carrying it up and down ladders and very cautiously setting it some where to apply to pipe. Use a paint brush to do so. I've been having issues with getting my 3/8s nuts started on the rod from time to time. I bought a file today to file down the ends if needed . Any tips on cutting rod with a bandsaw to get more of a perfect cut ? I've cut tons of rod over the years but never this much. I'd say almost 95% of all of our pipe is hung off kendor and clevis hangers . Which equals an extreme ammount of rod to be cut. I also cut my rod more than one at a time . I'd love to get a battery operated dewalt portaband and install a small vise on my cart to save time going back a forth from the cutting station. I contemplated on buying a laser measurement tool today to measure down for my hangers instead of pulling a tape down everytime , anyone had any luck with them ? . I think j may also make a mark on my ladder at a certain easy to remember height to save time stretching the tape down too. To be honest my issue has been lack of sleep due to my son getting severely sick then me . On top of that we've had a crazy ass neighbor causing problems for us . Like I've said a few times now I'm just looking for personal short cuts and tricks you guys use . Thanks



Not sure what kendor is but as for cutting rod I've always used a chop saw with a metal cutting blade and then I round off the edges on the side of the blade, nut will go on every time . I also used the same saw to cut the cast iron. Since your working I believe in a hospital I don't think that will work for you. They make a rod cutter that works well to.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Is kendor maybe similar to unistrut? Looked up the word kendor could not find it, maybe a local term


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

plumbdrum said:


> Is kendor maybe similar to unistrut? Looked up the word kendor could not find it, maybe a local term


Yes, it is.


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

plumbdrum said:


> Is kendor maybe similar to unistrut? Looked up the word kendor could not find it, maybe a local term


Yes sir. Kindorf is the manufacturer. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strut_channel


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Alright tommy boy:

I work for a large commercial shop and we do a lot of spool work. 

First things first, establish your centerline on the main. 

Run all your strut. Find your bottom of pipe and science out your starting point hanger. Figure that length, and cut all the hangers based off that. All hangers go up, then rack all the pipe. We call this show pipe, and show pipe keeps you employed. 

Then band all your pipe together adjusting as you go. We spool everything. And I'm fast at it. So a floor at least every week on bigger jobs.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Flyout95 said:


> Run all your strut. Find your bottom of pipe and science out your starting point hanger. Figure that length, and cut all the hangers based off that. All hangers go up, then rack all the pipe.


Do you set the hangers for all your branches and offsets at the same time as those for your main run?


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

I always run the main first. Pipe in the air buys you time, (as a journeyman with some drivers as foremen that's what I've found. Same with water pipe, I always rack my main then build hangers for branches.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

But, No matter how fast you go, they'll always want it faster. You might just have a dick foreman who uses threat of job loss as motivation.

But, you can beat a mule and it'll still be stubborn and not move... Dangle that carrot in front of it and it'll carry you for miles.


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## yaacov (Aug 8, 2012)

I hate commercial overhead piping. I find it so monotonous and tedious. I do projects for an AC contractor. We're the last guys in and its only me and a helper connecting 20-40 units with a short time frame. Quit the night jobs and now I'm telling him no more jobs at all. Gonna stick with residential and small renos.


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## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

thomascarter198 said:


> Hey guys this is my first post on here. I was currently hired to do plumbing work on a hospital in maryland. It's goverment scale pay and it's by far the best thing that's ever happened to me. I got into alot of trouble when I was younger and have slowly climbed up to over 45 k a year. The issue I'm having is I don't have much exp in running cast iron over head. This is what we have been put on first to start the job out. We are useing pretty much no anchors and all kendor with clevis hangers. All of our material has been pre cut and and delivered in what's called spools . All the fittings and layout has been completely figured out for us. Our job is to pretty much snap it together at the exact distances and heights they require. I was told on Friday I'm not producing enough and have another week to prove my self . I can't exsplain how devastated I will be if I lose this job . I'll lose everything I have . Please give me any tips and tricks you can think of in running cast iron over head. Exact methods you use to save time. Tricks to save time . ANY AND EVERYTHING you feel will save me time and make me become more productive . Thanks


 First thing I would do is find out exactly what he wants for production. "Not producing enough" is pretty subjective. Ask the foreman exactly what you need to get done in a day. Whether it's lineal feet, fittings , branches, hangers, whatever. Then try to meet that goal. I try to tell my guys exactly what I need them to get done that day and they usually do it. If not we'll try and figure out why. Just do as much as you can is too open ended. As mentioned it might not matter what you do it'll never be enough. Find out exactly what's required.


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## Johnny Canuck (Feb 24, 2015)

I've never cutbrod on a bandsaw - always with a chop saw then put on a slight chamfer. If you can get the nut on 1/2 a thread them whack the nut on the floor. It'll usually clear the threads.


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

It's an age old debate: 
1. install your hangers first, then hang your pipe. OR, 
2. put your hangers up with the pipe as you move down your layout. 

To each his own.


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## Johnny Canuck (Feb 24, 2015)

Cajunhiker said:


> It's an age old debate:
> 1. install your hangers first, then hang your pipe. OR,
> 2. put your hangers up with the pipe as you move down your layout.
> 
> To each his own.


I've always run hangers 1st


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Johns_TPS said:


> I've always run hangers 1st


Zactly!!!! Why keep switching gears?


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## JWBII (Dec 23, 2012)

Flyout.... What does "spool work" refer to? I've never heard the term used in commercial plumbing here.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

JWBII said:


> Flyout.... What does "spool work" refer to? I've never heard the term used in commercial plumbing here.


Spools are originally precut flanged pipe... They'd look like spools for thread...

Now we just use the term for precut pipe from computer generated measurements


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Cajunhiker said:


> It's an age old debate:
> 1. install your hangers first, then hang your pipe. OR,
> 2. put your hangers up with the pipe as you move down your layout.
> 
> To each his own.



Would love to see someone set hanger while wrestling a 100l lb piece of CI. Always hangers first at least on CI


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## Johnny Canuck (Feb 24, 2015)

Maybe your spending too much time on PZ or Facebook. Lol


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

I hate when people hang cast iron/pvc anyway they can then come back and install hangers. You end up with extra work and a poor product.


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## Mykeeb33 (Mar 6, 2015)

Hangers first after snapping lines on the floor. Always try to places short pieces (1'- 5') in between full lengths if possible. Hangers 18" from every band. On bigger jobs, arrange all snapped off chunks (3' or less) to look like a pipe organ against a wall, shortest to longest. Always check there first for short cuts. Less waste. A few short 2x4's make cutting easier. I like to use a white paint pen to mark pipe. Smartest person on job should be marking out hanger locations.


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## gassyplumber (May 1, 2011)

If I was having an issue with a messed up thread on a drop in or similar. I would cut end of rod with the bandsaw on a 45 deg angle it will start every time


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

gassyplumber said:


> If I was having an issue with a messed up thread on a drop in or similar. I would cut end of rod with the bandsaw on a 45 deg angle it will start every time


Then you will have threads only half engaged.


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## gassyplumber (May 1, 2011)

Just the starter don't get carried away


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

gassyplumber said:


> Just the starter don't get carried away


I'm not trying to bust on you. Just got me thinking of failed drop in anchors I and everyone else has seen in the past.


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## Johnny Canuck (Feb 24, 2015)

gassyplumber said:


> If I was having an issue with a messed up thread on a drop in or similar. I would cut end of rod with the bandsaw on a 45 deg angle it will start every time


My thought was the poor guy that goes up the ladder w/o his hard hat, gets a nice sharp spike in the top of his head. Of course we always wear our hard hats.


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## gasket (Sep 6, 2012)

I would suggest when doing your layout on the ground you place hangers 12" from the bands. This way when doing hanger cuts you are working with even distances in between hangers, 8' then 2'( deducting or adding the 1/4" per ft is easier) This has made it efficient for me to cut all my hangers on the ground.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

So how did yer first day go? Were you greeted kindly? Did you. Apologize for being a "Lowly" fitter, and promise to work hard & become a plumber? ;-) ;-)


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## TXPlumbBob (Dec 13, 2013)

I am sorry but if you have been plumbing for 15 years and do not know how to hang NHCI pipe and fittings you need to go back to residential pvc roughs. 

I walked on a project looking for a job and was asked if I knew how to install glass pipe. I had only seen it once before but told them I could do it. They gave me a fitting book and I took it home and read the install instructions and the next day started my new job. 48 4" risers 5 stories in a science building with me and one helper. They had forms we filled out daily that showed how many feet of pipe and number of joints you made that day. We even had a beading machine to save the company money. My biggest problem was all the carpenters wanting us to make them bongs.

Like said before the material does not matter if you know and understand the principal behind the task.


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## ajdpe (Jul 28, 2015)

Am I reading correctly? I'm new to the site but have been involved in plumbing installation and design for too many years....is it true that someone actually laid out the pipe and fittings and numbered the pieces???!!!


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

*Hello! Introduction Requested* 
An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/. 

The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession) 

Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field. 

This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is. 

We look forward to your valuable input.


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## Mykeeb33 (Mar 6, 2015)

*Sometimes*



ajdpe said:


> Am I reading correctly? I'm new to the site but have been involved in plumbing installation and design for too many years....is it true that someone actually laid out the pipe and fittings and numbered the pieces???!!!


 Hey, what ever works. It's not the norm, but I've had rare situations where I've cut a bunch of CI pieces that were maybe close to the same length and numbered them for myself or someone else to install. Less chance for a screw up, especially if working with an apprentice.


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## Pac-12 (May 10, 2015)

Master Plumber and hanging pipe is kicking your ass...dude go whine to your old lady....


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## mpm (Nov 16, 2010)

Get yourself a M12 or M18 bandsaw. The M12 will cut all thread all day long. If you want something that will do more than that the M18 is awesome. I can't imagine having to go back to a "cut station" my cart is the cut station.\

I haven't done a lot of production work but having everything cut and numbered for you sounds like a cake walk. 

Seems to me you need to be more efficient. The fast moving guy isn't always efficient and the efficient guy isnt always fast moving.

If it were me I would:

1. Snap a line or laser
2. Cut all my all thread to length.
3. Install strut w/ hangers.
4. Hang pipe on hangers

I would get all my pipe and fittings together by number so I could just grab and go.

I've seen some guys hand all the pipe then go back and put in the fittings. To each his own though...


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## smoldrn (Oct 4, 2010)

I've cut plenty of rod with a chop saw, but it seems faster to me to cut it with a 24 tooth sawzall blade in a vise. No beveling required, & I don't have to wait for the rod to cool down before starting the nut.


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## joarmape (Nov 10, 2015)

hey thomascarter198 my reply is late, I just hope that everything worked out fine at least to get the job done on time. never give up!


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