# Cast Transition



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I'm getting more and more old pipes that I have to bring up to code. The problem is 2" cast iron coming from the concrete floor and reduces to 1 1/2". With the new washing machine the size is usually not enough, that and the soap zone.

I need to find a way to attach a 2" ABS to the cast without breaking concrete and transition on virgin pipe. My idea right now would be to drill with a hole saw trough the poured lead, insert a 2" copper pipe and solder it. Then I can transition to ABS?

Any other ideas?


.


----------



## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

Can you remove abs.. and just cold caulk abs into hub with pc4 and oakum


----------



## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

You can also buy hub ferncos to fit over the hub and go 2" from there... file down ridges on cast clean up with grit cloth... and put silicone on the old cast and stretch fernco over it


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Venomthirst said:


> Can you remove abs.. and just cold caulk abs into hub with pc4 and oakum


In the picture it's 1 1/2" and I need to put a 2".

I haven't removed one yet but I know it'll be too small. Maybe I can dig out all the lead with a chisel and use pc4, if I can find any that is!

A fernco over the hub, I'll waste my time trying to find one, then try to grind it smooth and worst of all I can't guarantee it. If I can't guarantee it that could spell a formal complaint and be stuck giving them a new pipe under the concrete floor plus a hefty fine. It has to be leak proof the very first time.


----------



## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

Charlotte seal. Goes inside the hub and the PVC goes into the seal.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...SS-CS-QT.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1dVV8Egdy0KJIfSzQ3eVHO


----------



## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

In Illinois we are allowed to remove the lead (cut, heat, bang out) pop a multi-tight in the cast hub and push a "raised bead adapter" like you use with no-hub couplings into the multi-tight.

Of course we know it works well with just the ABS, but we are mandated to use a transitional fitting unless we are dealing with cast iron.


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

hroark2112 said:


> Charlotte seal. Goes inside the hub and the PVC goes into the seal.
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...SS-CS-QT.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1dVV8Egdy0KJIfSzQ3eVHO


I'll check the suppliers if they can get some. Usually rare items like these you have to buy a couple hundred of them.

Edit : looks like fernco makes them too, I'll be checking them out tomorrow if not I'll order on Amazon USA. Finally they allow us to buy from there!! For 10 years or so we weren't allowed.


----------



## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

Tango said:


> Venomthirst said:
> 
> 
> > Can you remove abs.. and just cold caulk abs into hub with pc4 and oakum
> ...


Yea itll come out hack saw blade or sawzall cut the lead and it'll come out easy peezy... cold caulk. Hydraulic cement even would seal it up saved me a number of times...

To do it best oakum then pc4..


----------



## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

I have had good luck once or twice with a fernco. Just pull out the ABS pipe and the lead comes out fairly easy too. I'm not sure what seize you would need but I am thinking a 4"X2" or maybe a 4"X3" with a bushing in it. No need to file down the cast or anything like that. Just get the fernco over the cast hub and it will tighten down to fit. You might want an extra hose clamp for extra safety but I have made it work like that and felt confident in that repair before. I guess the only thing would be that a fernco technically is not allowed above ground and only underground.

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Take the old joint out and use lead wool and oakum.












.


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

The Dane said:


> I have had good luck once or twice with a fernco. Just pull out the ABS pipe and the lead comes out fairly easy too. I'm not sure what seize you would need but I am thinking a 4"X2" or maybe a 4"X3" with a bushing in it. No need to file down the cast or anything like that. Just get the fernco over the cast hub and it will tighten down to fit. You might want an extra hose clamp for extra safety but I have made it work like that and felt confident in that repair before. I guess the only thing would be that a fernco technically is not allowed above ground and only underground.
> 
> Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


That's pretty stupid not to be allowed ferncos above ground, I install them daily. How the hell are you supposed to put a new piece of pipe and you can't spread them apart without one?? I bet it's a conspiracy where you are.

.


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> Take the old joint out and use lead wool and oakum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'll check that too if it's obtanium.


----------



## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

hroark2112 said:


> Charlotte seal. Goes inside the hub and the PVC goes into the seal.
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...SS-CS-QT.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1dVV8Egdy0KJIfSzQ3eVHO


The ol rubber donut, I just used one last week.


----------



## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

I use those rubber donuts for jobs like that. Once you cut out the abs it should be pretty easy to pry out the lead.


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Ok so I called 2 suppliers, they never heard of an internal "doughnut" fernco, one of them didn't know what lead wool and pc4 were. In any case I'm pretty much wasting my time with all the suppliers in town. One supplier told me to use a 5"x4" and put put it on top. I just don't want to buy a bunch of rubber couplings to find out they don't fit or leaks.

I'll be looking if I can order them online.


----------



## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Not hard to get in Charlotte. I can send you some if you want to try them out?


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

89plumbum said:


> Not hard to get in Charlotte. I can send you some if you want to try them out?


One supplier told me PC4(concrete cord) is 215$ plus 67$ for oakum.

Yes I'll buy 4 of each! Not sure about 4" but these next ones yes.

3"
3"x 2"
2"
2"x 1 1/2"


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> One supplier told me PC4(concrete cord) is 215$ plus 67$ for oakum.
> "





https://www.amazon.com/LEAD-Jones-Stephens-Corp-L40-001/dp/B000DZH9EW/


https://www.amazon.com/Jones-Stephens-O15-007-Oakum-1-Pound/dp/B000DZHCXA/


There ya go. You should prolly get a prime account if amazon is easier to order from in canuckistan.














.


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Here is my post on using lead wool to add a c.o.. I am sure you remember this.


https://www.plumbingzone.com/f7/adding-c-o-old-non-circular-lead-bend-slab-84466/












.


----------



## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

On the shelf at Fergusons


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Debo22 said:


> On the shelf at Fergusons


Sure Sure, rub it in...:sad2:

The more I hang out with you guys the more I notice I live in a place where there's a ton of ignorant practices, plumbers, suppliers etc. It's like people here live in a bubble and don't want to expand on their knowledge and evolve.

I can't count on how many tools and supplies I have to order online because no one has a clue and worst of all the suppliers do not want to order them. No wonder most of the service companies here have all a boat load of bad work ethics and bad reviews.


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Debo22 said:


> On the shelf at Fergusons


Talking about Ferguson, that's the same place they had no clue about the charlotte/fernco and the same place that I ordered my K-3800 and finally told me it would be something like 9 months for shipping. Every time I go there the manager who's been there for over 30 years never has any idea of this and that. He kept bothering me for months to obtain an account and when I did he doesn't remember me. I flat out told him I wasn't buying from them anymore with their prices double than everyone else and bad service.


----------



## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

Tango said:


> That's pretty stupid not to be allowed ferncos above ground, I install them daily. How the hell are you supposed to put a new piece of pipe and you can't spread them apart without one?? I bet it's a conspiracy where you are.
> 
> .


Not stupid. The shielded proflex is what is allowed above ground so you can still easily put a new piece of pipe in without being able to spread the pipe.

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


----------



## powellmatthew76 (Sep 11, 2019)

Tango said:


> Talking about Ferguson, that's the same place they had no clue about the charlotte/fernco and the same place that I ordered my K-3800 and finally told me it would be something like 9 months for shipping. Every time I go there the manager who's been there for over 30 years never has any idea of this and that. He kept bothering me for months to obtain an account and when I did he doesn't remember me. I flat out told him I wasn't buying from them anymore with their prices double than everyone else and bad service.


In Ferguson's defense they do have decent coffee and crispy creme donuts and never have any propress fittings that you need that day but are happy to order. And don't forget the rigid reps with there cold pizza and no actual experience with any sewer equipment 

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

powellmatthew76 said:


> In Ferguson's defense they do have decent coffee and crispy creme donuts and never have any propress fittings that you need that day but are happy to order. And don't forget the rigid reps with there cold pizza and no actual experience with any sewer equipment
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


Over here no free stuff but even if they did it's because the contractors paid for it because they overpaid way way more for a commodity.

I prefer going to my new supplier, they welcome me every day, One guy welcomes me with my name. A+


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

powellmatthew76 said:


> In Ferguson's defense they do have decent coffee and crispy creme donuts and never have any propress fittings that you need that day but are happy to order. And don't forget the rigid reps with there cold pizza and no actual experience with any sewer equipment
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk







We have a supply chain near us, the motto they seem to work by is known by all tradesmen around here; We can get you anything you want, *tomorrow*.
















.


----------



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Tango said:


> I'm getting more and more old pipes that I have to bring up to code. The problem is 2" cast iron coming from the concrete floor and reduces to 1 1/2". With the new washing machine the size is usually not enough, that and the soap zone.
> 
> I need to find a way to attach a 2" ABS to the cast without breaking concrete and transition on virgin pipe. My idea right now would be to drill with a hole saw trough the poured lead, insert a 2" copper pipe and solder it. Then I can transition to ABS?
> 
> ...


Just pick the lead and oakum out of hub,get a neoprene hub gasket,bevel 2" pvc pipe and drive it into hub,I recommend using pvc sch 40 pipe and get away from crappy abs,it just no good


----------



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

hroark2112 said:


> Charlotte seal. Goes inside the hub and the PVC goes into the seal.
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...SS-CS-QT.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1dVV8Egdy0KJIfSzQ3eVHO


What he said lololol,only way to do it right


----------



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Tango said:


> That's pretty stupid not to be allowed ferncos above ground, I install them daily. How the hell are you supposed to put a new piece of pipe and you can't spread them apart without one?? I bet it's a conspiracy where you are.
> 
> .


In ky,we aren't allowed to put ferncos above ground either,they have to be used outside the blding underground,inside we use clamp all's or mission bands only,but that is if things are getting inspected,if no inspection ferncos will be used where needed,plus they are cheaper lolololol


----------



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Tango said:


> Talking about Ferguson, that's the same place they had no clue about the charlotte/fernco and the same place that I ordered my K-3800 and finally told me it would be something like 9 months for shipping. Every time I go there the manager who's been there for over 30 years never has any idea of this and that. He kept bothering me for months to obtain an account and when I did he doesn't remember me. I flat out told him I wasn't buying from them anymore with their prices double than everyone else and bad service.


Ferguson's suck big time,try to find a plumbers supply or a winnelson co,surely they have some in canuckistan lololo


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

sparky said:


> Ferguson's suck big time,try to find a plumbers supply or a winnelson co,surely they have some in canuckistan lololo


Nothing in the entire region and NO ONE has ever heard of them! I phoned ferguson again and talked to the most reasonable guy in there about them and he would check...

89plumbum is sending me a few in the mail, Thanks!!

I located some on Amazon US and thankfully they ship here. Looks like only 25% of stuff found on that site can be shipped.

And oh for your supposedly superior "PVC" pipe, you want us to start installing them you'll have to change rules of the cosmos. :vs_laugh: That white pipe looks real nice and dirty in someone's house. I'd have to clean all of it or I'd get bad reviews.


----------



## canuck92 (Apr 1, 2016)

Peel it an pc4 it then i put some wax from a wax seal over the pc4. Works everytime.


----------



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Tango said:


> Nothing in the entire region and NO ONE has ever heard of them! I phoned ferguson again and talked to the most reasonable guy in there about them and he would check...
> 
> 89plumbum is sending me a few in the mail, Thanks!!
> 
> ...


Put a piece of pvc sch 40 pipe next to your abs and you will see and feel the difference,I just dug out 40'-0"" of 4" abs crap on a house sewer,only about 2-3ft deep and it was egg shaped and cracked and busted,it was all oval shaped and junk,pvc sch 40 or foamcore will not do this:vs_laugh:


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

sparky said:


> Put a piece of pvc sch 40 pipe next to your abs and you will see and feel the difference,I just dug out 40'-0"" of 4" abs crap on a house sewer,only about 2-3ft deep and it was egg shaped and cracked and busted,it was all oval shaped and junk,pvc sch 40 or foamcore will not do this:vs_laugh:


I just don't know if it's better after a while, I only did just a little bit of gray pvc and xfr is lowrise condos. I did huge PVC for an olympic sized swimming pool up to 12" or 16" I can't remember.


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

While I wait for some ferncos coming from the mail...

Looks like I'm the only one in the entire city who bought oakum in the last 20 years, look at the dust on the box! I had to order PC4 from their warehouse branch. This stuff is real expensive 425$ for both.

I need this stuff for next week's job. He's getting charged 1/3 the cost of it for this joint alone.


----------



## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

ABS doesn’t hold up under compression, it warps And goes out of round underground. But it’s pretty strong against shock, like being hit by something. It’s great above ground.
I only use ABS underground for small sections of pipe like for a basement WR rough in.
The foamcore ABS isn’t very good. It’s mostly sold at big box stores.

PVC(white/green pipe)- will shatter if it’s hit, yet it’s great under compression- underground. 

PVC(grey- sys15 or XFR)- is great above ground but it’s WAY more expensive then ABS. It’s used in commercial, industrial, condo/high rise etc.


----------



## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

35 responses and no one has suggested the obvious (to me anyway) solution. Pick out the lead and oakum, stick a short piece of 2" NH in the bell, pack it with oakum, pour a lead joint, set a Mission CP200 on the NH stub and you are ready for ABS. Pouring a vertical joint is as easy as pissing into a pot. A child could do it. I know, because I did.


----------



## Dpeckplb (Sep 20, 2013)

Tango said:


> While I wait for some ferncos coming from the mail...
> 
> Looks like I'm the only one in the entire city who bought oakum in the last 20 years, look at the dust on the box! I had to order PC4 from their warehouse branch. This stuff is real expensive 425$ for both.
> 
> I need this stuff for next week's job. He's getting charged 1/3 the cost of it for this joint alone.


Do you have a Desco or Nobel branches in Quebec? I’ve bought cast lipped abs fitting and oakum and pc4 through desco before.


----------



## Dpeckplb (Sep 20, 2013)

Logtec said:


> ABS doesn’t hold up under compression, it warps And goes out of round underground. But it’s pretty strong against shock, like being hit by something. It’s great above ground.
> I only use ABS underground for small sections of pipe like for a basement WR rough in.
> The foamcore ABS isn’t very good. It’s mostly sold at big box stores.
> 
> ...


I’ve been finding lots of Orangeburg pipe underground lately. Makes abs under compaction look like cast.


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Plumbus said:


> 35 responses and no one has suggested the obvious (to me anyway) solution. Pick out the lead and oakum, stick a short piece of 2" NH in the bell, pack it with oakum, pour a lead joint, set a Mission CP200 on the NH stub and you are ready for ABS. Pouring a vertical joint is as easy as pissing into a pot. A child could do it. I know, because I did.


Poured lead was obsolete a long time before I started the trade. So my guesstimate the last pour in my area was probably over 60 years ago.


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Dpeckplb said:


> Do you have a Desco or Nobel branches in Quebec? I’ve bought cast lipped abs fitting and oakum and pc4 through desco before.


Never heard of it.


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

@Venomthirst

What's the shelf life of this stuff, I see a seal on the lid so I think I'll have to seal it back each time. I have to figure out how long it lasts before it's no longer good to charge customers accordingly.

Do you have to wet it and pack it in or is it ready for use?


.


----------



## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

Dpeckplb said:


> Logtec said:
> 
> 
> > ABS doesn’t hold up under compression, it warps And goes out of round underground. But it’s pretty strong against shock, like being hit by something. It’s great above ground.
> ...


I haven’t seen any of that in a longtime. 
I like the old ads for Orangeburg.


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> I just don't know if it's better after a while, I only did just a little bit of gray pvc and xfr is lowrise condos. I did huge PVC for an olympic sized swimming pool up to 12" or 16" I can't remember.


*It does last for decades. I have seen 40 year old buried pvc.*

I do a lot of drain cleaning and run the camera darn near everytime. We have a mix of everything around here so I have literally seen it all. I dare you to try and name a drain pipe I haven't snaked. Abs, pvc, cast iron of many different eras, Duriron, transite, clay, brick, sdr 35, corrugated, fusion weld, sch 20, orangeburg, even ti-krome! Sch.40 pvc is in fourth place after sch. 80 cpvc, fusionweld, and duriron, all of which are very rare for commercial and non-existent for residential.


Sch. 40 pvc really is the superior white pipe for residential drainage. I have had one pvc line get roots. It was in a 10 yr old joint. I bet they forgot to glue it. On the other hand I have seen lots of ovaled, cracked, and split abs, some of it not even buried!!! Pvc pipe won't just crack or pull apart when hanging in the air if it's done correctly. Abs however will split from heat like a sanitizing dishwasher.
















.


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

skoronesa said:


> *It does last for decades. I have seen 40 year old buried pvc.*
> 
> I do a lot of drain cleaning and run the camera darn near everytime. We have a mix of everything around here so I have literally seen it all. I dare you to try and name a drain pipe I haven't snaked. Abs, pvc, cast iron of many different eras, Duriron, transite, clay, brick, sdr 35, corrugated, fusion weld, sch 20, orangeburg, even ti-krome! Sch.40 pvc is in fourth place after sch. 80 cpvc, fusionweld, and duriron, all of which are very rare for commercial and non-existent for residential.
> 
> ...









I've heard {or read} the same thing about PVC; it is supposed to last 50-100 years buried and hidden from the UV rays of sunlight.


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Tango said:


> Never heard of it.












I hate to say this {or type it actually mon frere} but up there in the People's Republic of Canukistan, you are living in what seems like a 3rd world country. Based on this thread, Canadian plumbers are not up to the standards of the US plumbing codes and such. And I'm not bragging here, this isn't a "Ra ra let's hear it for the USA!" statement. I just think it's terrible that you are scrambling around trying to find supplies to do a job correctly. It is sad that you have to deal with this.


When you fabricate a shower pan, do you use PVC liner? The liner that I buy says "Made in Canada." And if you do use PVC shower pan material, do you know what dam corners are? Again, based on this thread, dam corners are probably no where to be found up there in Canada.


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> *It does last for decades. I have seen 40 year old buried pvc.*
> 
> I do a lot of drain cleaning and run the camera darn near everytime. We have a mix of everything around here so I have literally seen it all. I dare you to try and name a drain pipe I haven't snaked. Abs, pvc, cast iron of many different eras, Duriron, transite, clay, brick, sdr 35, corrugated, fusion weld, sch 20, orangeburg, even ti-krome! Sch.40 pvc is in fourth place after sch. 80 cpvc, fusionweld, and duriron, all of which are very rare for commercial and non-existent for residential.
> 
> ...




Here, you can gloat....But you know what, I can gloat too because I get paid to fix it! A nice paycheck yesterday!:biggrin: 2 types of different sized PVC and ABS. 

Looks like they put that Tv $hit flex seaall :vs_laugh:





.


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> Here, you can gloat....But you know what, I can gloat too because I get paid to fix it! A nice paycheck yesterday!:biggrin: 2 types of different sized PVC and ABS.
> 
> Looks like they put that Tv $hit flex seaall :vs_laugh:
> 
> .







It's not gloating. Abs is a dream to work with except for it coming prebent. It's easy to cut, the glue smells nice, it sets up fast, its much lighter, you name it. It needs a couple extra hangers but that's about it.


I don't use pvc because I enjoy it. I use it because it is the best and it is the standard here. While most hardware stores carry both pvc and abs they will often have more pvc. The supply house carries much more pvc. I can install pvc and I know I won't be questioned about the quality of the materials.


Abs on the other hand, many home owners even know it has a bad rap. I guess when you only see one side of the coin you get used to it and don't imagine the other side is that much better. I figure that's what it's like up there where you only have abs for the most part.
















.


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Tommy plumber said:


> I hate to say this {or type it actually mon frere} but up there in the People's Republic of Canukistan, you are living in what seems like a 3rd world country. Based on this thread, Canadian plumbers are not up to the standards of the US plumbing codes and such. And I'm not bragging here, this isn't a "Ra ra let's hear it for the USA!" statement. I just think it's terrible that you are scrambling around trying to find supplies to do a job correctly. It is sad that you have to deal with this.
> 
> 
> When you fabricate a shower pan, do you use PVC liner? The liner that I buy says "Made in Canada." And if you do use PVC shower pan material, do you know what dam corners are? Again, based on this thread, dam corners are probably no where to be found up there in Canada.


I agree and I stated this not too long ago, plumbers here are not up to date on technologies, practices or tools. Companies are so cheap and greedy they provide almost nothing to their workers to work with. Supply houses follow suit and don't care what I have to say or what I'd like to order. I order online toilet shims, jumbo wax seals, toilet flappers, o-rings, faucet cartridges, toilet repair rings, hammer arrestors, etc. The supply house has none of those. Sure I can buy these at HD but only at prohibitive prices. By the way we are only 2 plumber who shop at HD in the entire city, so that tells you a lot about poor workmanship from other companies...



Before I opened my doors I went for an interview at a plumbing service company and asked the brothers if they supplied so and so tools, both looked at me as if I was crazy because they never heard of them. Their tools of the trade is a hammer and if that doesn't work use a sledge hammer. Their trucks are almost empty, with very few tools. Some of them unclog drains with 15$ hand spinners from what customers tell me and I get to do it right a few days or weeks later.



I never did a membrane shower pan and I declined one last week. With all the horror stories I read here I'm not risking it because most tile guys here are drunks or meth heads. I only install fiberglass pans.


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> It's not gloating. Abs is a dream to work with except for it coming prebent. It's easy to cut, the glue smells nice, it sets up fast, its much lighter, you name it. It needs a couple extra hangers but that's about it.
> 
> 
> I don't use pvc because I enjoy it. I use it because it is the best and it is the standard here. While most hardware stores carry both pvc and abs they will often have more pvc. The supply house carries much more pvc. I can install pvc and I know I won't be questioned about the quality of the materials.
> ...


And oh that underground PVC is thin, so thin it cracks just by looking at it.


----------



## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

Tango said:


> @Venomthirst
> 
> What's the shelf life of this stuff, I see a seal on the lid so I think I'll have to seal it back each time. I have to figure out how long it lasts before it's no longer good to charge customers accordingly.
> 
> ...


It should last a really long time the seal is to keep moisture from coming in contact with the cement... it's basically hemp impregnated with hydraulic cement...

Remember use 2/3 oakum (flax if u.k) and 1/3 cold caulk.. should be approximately 1" minimum depth of the cement rope. oakum is the actual seal


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> And oh that underground PVC is thin, so thin it cracks just by looking at it.





You're talking about teal sdr 35 or white sch. 20, yes, that stuff is garbage. This is why I specified Sch. 40 solid core pvc pipe. The walls are about 5/16" thick, I could drive over it with my service van. It is rated for 220psi(4") and is labeled as well casing.




Do you think I am lying? We have thousands of sch. 40 pvc lines buried with no issues. I may have to ship you some so you can see for yourself.


























.


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> You're talking about teal sdr 35 or white sch. 20, yes, that stuff is garbage. This is why I specified Sch. 40 solid core pvc pipe. The walls are about 5/16" thick, I could drive over it with my service van. It is rated for 220psi(4") and is labeled as well casing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You lie! Just kidding. Yes Yes I know different thicknesses in those pipes. :devil3:


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Logtec said:


> I haven’t seen any of that in a longtime.
> I like the old ads for Orangeburg.





I used to think someone would have to be a real cheap a hole to install orangeburg. I didn't realize it looked so nice brand new. I went in a crawlspace a year or two ago. They had a piece of perforated orangeburg, it looked liked black friberglass!!! I thought it was some sort of brand new pipe.


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Here's a couple of those old timey ads.


----------



## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> Here's a couple of those old timey ads.


I can hear this, in that old 1950’s radio announcers voice:

“After a long day of installing Orangeberg pipe, nothing is better then the smooth draw of a Lucky Strike cigarette!”


----------



## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

Not much orange burg here most notable experience was my cousins house... dug entire sewer up all underground drains and initially snaked and videoed replaced to p.l where it goes to Abs... 

After I was all done hands me 400 bucks and says is that enough.. me being the nice guy I just say sure... 

Then he complains to the rest of family saying I didn't help him back recement basement floor and I should've helped him do that for that amount of money...

Needless to say I dont work for family no more and if I do it's free out of kindness.. usually just say I'm too busy


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Tango said:


> And oh that underground PVC is thin, so thin it cracks just by looking at it.













You are talking about thin-wall, not schedule 40. Sch. 40 is robust and a decent gauge pipe.

I come across thin-wall pipe all the time. It's flimsy and doesn't handle load-stresses well. It cracks easily.


----------



## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

Tommy plumber said:


> Tango said:
> 
> 
> > And oh that underground PVC is thin, so thin it cracks just by looking at it.
> ...



The thin walled stuff reminds me of “central vacuum tubing


----------



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Tommy plumber said:


> I've heard {or read} the same thing about PVC; it is supposed to last 50-100 years buried and hidden from the UV rays of sunlight.


Right tommy,and that is the life of a building anyways,so might as well say pvc will last a lifetime if installed correctly and maintained correctly


----------



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Tango said:


> I agree and I stated this not too long ago, plumbers here are not up to date on technologies, practices or tools. Companies are so cheap and greedy they provide almost nothing to their workers to work with. Supply houses follow suit and don't care what I have to say or what I'd like to order. I order online toilet shims, jumbo wax seals, toilet flappers, o-rings, faucet cartridges, toilet repair rings, hammer arrestors, etc. The supply house has none of those. Sure I can buy these at HD but only at prohibitive prices. By the way we are only 2 plumber who shop at HD in the entire city, so that tells you a lot about poor workmanship from other companies...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't do pans either tango,that's a tile guy job right there,we got enough to worry about besides a shower pan leaking on a 2nd floor bathroom


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

sparky said:


> I don't do pans either tango,that's a tile guy job right there,we got enough to worry about besides a shower pan leaking on a 2nd floor bathroom


Edit : Last week when I declined it the tile guy I spoke to sounded old and he couldn't even say what it was all about, he kept repeating over and over "shluter" with a heavy slur. It was impossible to have a conversation and the home owner didn't know what was needed anyway. I wanted no part in this mess.

Exactly in my limited experience, it's always at the last minute, the customer hired an under the table guy or guys or GC's without hiring subs and since I'm the only one licensed there I'll take the blame.

Take my GH brother, for example (he's a little arrogant) I told him not to have a tiled shower floor, guess what he hired bozos and they had to rip out the shower not once but twice in less than 6 months from the original install!!!:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

sparky said:


> I don't do pans either tango,that's a tile guy job right there,we got enough to worry about besides a shower pan leaking on a 2nd floor bathroom



a shower pan liner is a licensed plumber install not a tile guy, it is considered a plumbing fixture...they are easy todo,especially now with pvc liners and not lead...
and you would end up paying for the leak..at least in my area , because its illegal for anyone other than a licensed plumber to install a shower liner pan..


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> a shower pan liner is a licensed plumber install not a tile guy, it is considered a plumbing fixture...they are easy todo,especially now with pvc liners and not lead...
> and you would end up paying for the leak..at least in my area , because its illegal for anyone other than a licensed plumber to install a shower liner pan..





Not around here, that's the purview of the tile guy. We either give them the drain piece or they supply the one they prefer to work with. They set that fitting and we pipe to it.


Occasionally we do fiberglass surrounds. My boss always makes the same guy do them because he is great at service and does some newcon/reno and always does a great job. He hates doing those fiberglass surrounds almost as much as I hate duct cleaning. It's really dumb because we have a carpenter who specializes in kitchen/bath renos we work with all the time who does tons of these surrounds. But we make more money if we sub a cheap carpenter to just do the rough frame and we set the fiberglass.




















.


----------



## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Never again orangeburg, gets out of round very easy for root growth. Not allowed in Illinois.

Sch. 40 or cast underground inside foundation walls, SDR 35 for building sewers in most areas. Forget the depth limit on SDR 35, maybe 16' then SCH 40 is a must. S.D. pipe only for laterals of a private disposal system. Still must have SCH. 40 to the tank.

ABS for the most part left our area years ago, still see it mainly on repairs. Darn glue sets so fast it's hard to rotate the fitting.

Cast hub to PVC or ABS transition, must be oakum and poured lead with a "raised bead" adapter not just the pipe. One can also used a raised bead adapter and push it into a "multi-tight" in a cast hub. No type of cement allowed.

No FERNCO rubber couplings anywhere inside a foundation. Must be no-hub couplings and raised bead adapters for ABS or PVC. Cast iron no-hub couplings directly on the pipe. For me the four band couplings are the only way to go. Never worry about leaks and much more stable.


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

GAN said:


> Never again orangeburg, gets out of round very easy for root growth. Not allowed in Illinois.
> 
> Sch. 40 or cast underground inside foundation walls, SDR 35 for building sewers in most areas. Forget the depth limit on SDR 35, maybe 16' then SCH 40 is a must. S.D. pipe only for laterals of a private disposal system. Still must have SCH. 40 to the tank.
> 
> ...



No fernco in the concrete foundation or the house? 

Then poured lead, oh my!!! Then some of you guys think in my area we aren't to today's practices, poured lead! :vs_OMG:

What's a raised bead adapter look like?


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> No fernco in the concrete foundation or the house?
> 
> Then poured lead, oh my!!! Then some of you guys think in my area we aren't to today's practices, poured lead! :vs_OMG:
> 
> What's a raised bead adapter look like?





same by me, ferncos only outside in the ground, and even that is changing to ferncos with stainless bands for support..


raised bead adapter is basically a short piece of pipe with a ridge around the perimeter of the end of the piece so the oakum can hold in the piece when packed and the pvc wont push out..
I have a plastic welder and make my own, I weld on a pvc bead at the bottom of a piece of pipe on the outside, about 1/4 inch thick..


----------



## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

No hub adapter-










What I would call a soil adapter-


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> same by me, ferncos only outside in the ground, and even that is changing to ferncos with stainless bands for support..
> 
> 
> raised bead adapter is basically a short piece of pipe with a ridge around the perimeter of the end of the piece so the oakum can hold in the piece when packed and the pvc wont push out..
> I have a plastic welder and make my own, I weld on a pvc bead at the bottom of a piece of pipe on the outside, about 1/4 inch thick..





Toli said:


> No hub adapter-



I did the joint this morning from the picture I posted the other day ...

Ok so those is what the old timer at the supply house was talking to me about this afternoon. They can't and won't order them. So only solution for now if to use oakum and PC4 but I'm not sure if it would be totally okay or break concrete, cut the pipe and put a regular fernco coupling, and redo the concrete.

EDIT : ShtRnsdownhill you gave me an idea that next one I have to do like that I'll cut a thin slice of a coupling and glue it at the end of the ABS to make that raised lip.


----------



## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> same by me, ferncos only outside in the ground, and even that is changing to ferncos with stainless bands for support..
> 
> 
> raised bead adapter is basically a short piece of pipe with a ridge around the perimeter of the end of the piece so the oakum can hold in the piece when packed and the pvc wont push out..
> I have a plastic welder and make my own, I weld on a pvc bead at the bottom of a piece of pipe on the outside, about 1/4 inch thick..


Can't make our own. No modification of fittings or materials allowed under code. To make a fitting it would need to be tested and approved.


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

GAN said:


> Can't make our own. No modification of fittings or materials allowed under code. To make a fitting it would need to be tested and approved.





Ive never been questioned on it and im not worried about any liability, for what it is...hey you gota take some chances in life....


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

GAN said:


> Can't make our own. No modification of fittings or materials allowed under code. To make a fitting it would need to be tested and approved.


Like all those illegal things like fittings, contraptions like accordion drains, faucets sold in big box stores... As if they are going to go away they are in plain view!

It's better to bend the rules sometime because like I said unobtainable. What am I going to say to the customer, sorry I can't order the 15$ fitting we got to rip the pipe out all the way to the street for 15 thousand dollars. Oh sorry the main pipe is under the furnace and water heater, it'll be a couple thousands more.

Then we should be able to file complaints on customers who hired hacks before we got there so our customers can go to jail.


----------



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> a shower pan liner is a licensed plumber install not a tile guy, it is considered a plumbing fixture...they are easy todo,especially now with pvc liners and not lead...
> and you would end up paying for the leak..at least in my area , because its illegal for anyone other than a licensed plumber to install a shower liner pan..


I've been plumbing 25 yrs now and never,not one time have I ever seen a plumbing inspector ask about the shower pan,they just don't care who does it and never did,the way the trade has a gone down over the yrs the inspectors just don't care,they want that permit money and that's it,but I will never do a shower pan install,let the tile guys earn there money


----------



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> Ive never been questioned on it and im not worried about any liability, for what it is...hey you gota take some chances in life....


Nobody ever ever gonna check it or look at it especially on service work,you will be fine making your own,who's gonna know???:devil3:


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

sparky said:


> I've been plumbing 25 yrs now and never,not one time have I ever seen a plumbing inspector ask about the shower pan,they just don't care who does it and never did,the way the trade has a gone down over the yrs the inspectors just don't care,they want that permit money and that's it,but I will never do a shower pan install,let the tile guys earn there money





I guess every area has its own rules, but in my area shower pans are covered under the plumbing code and are in the code book, soooo it must be covered under a licensed plumber, yes plenty of other people put in the shower pans and do all kinds of plumbing work, thats just how the cookie crumbles...
take a look through your code book and see if shower pans are covered...
my state new york has an abomination of licensing...no state license, its left up to each municipality, and when you get into the rural areas....
its the wild west of plumbing..many areas no plumbing inspectors and no need for licensed plumbers..its handy hack wonderlands all over the place...


----------



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I guess every area has its own rules, but in my area shower pans are covered under the plumbing code and are in the code book, soooo it must be covered under a licensed plumber, yes plenty of other people put in the shower pans and do all kinds of plumbing work, thats just how the cookie crumbles...
> take a look through your code book and see if shower pans are covered...
> my state new york has an abomination of licensing...no state license, its left up to each municipality, and when you get into the rural areas....
> its the wild west of plumbing..many areas no plumbing inspectors and no need for licensed plumbers..its handy hack wonderlands all over the place...


Yea it's in the code book but that means absolutely nothing,all the different companies I have worked for thru the yrs not one of them did a shower pan,not one,plus when you buy a permit and it has a shower on it inspectors never ever count the shower pan as a fixture that has to be inspected,never,so we don't do them period,if it not enforced why do it,that is one of them old timey codes that needs to be taken out of every code book in the country,it is outdated,once they figured out that lead was bad for the health and that was what pans were made out of,it kinda killed the shower pan plumbing inspector connection,have you ever had an inspector ask if you did the pan???did they care who did it??willing to bet never


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

sparky said:


> Yea it's in the code book but that means absolutely nothing,all the different companies I have worked for thru the yrs not one of them did a shower pan,not one,plus when you buy a permit and it has a shower on it inspectors never ever count the shower pan as a fixture that has to be inspected,never,so we don't do them period,if it not enforced why do it,that is one of them old timey codes that needs to be taken out of every code book in the country,it is outdated,once they figured out that lead was bad for the health and that was what pans were made out of,it kinda killed the shower pan plumbing inspector connection,have you ever had an inspector ask if you did the pan???did they care who did it??willing to bet never



years ago I used lead for pans, and im guessing about 10 or 15 years ago they approved PVC for shower pans and I started using it for permitted jobs, but used it long before it was changed into the code for non permitted jobs...
and in my area its the plumbers job to install the pan, so on inspections its expected the plumber did it, just like would an inspector ask if you installed the shower body or any other plumbing fixture on inspections..


----------



## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

It’s primarily hot mop shower pans here, so obviously it’s not a plumber thing.


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Debo22 said:


> It’s primarily hot mop shower pans here, so obviously it’s not a plumber thing.



whats a hot mop shower pan? like the way they do roofs?


----------



## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> whats a hot mop shower pan? like the way they do roofs?


Yes, hot liquid tar. I didn’t know it’s a regional thing.


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Debo22 said:


> Yes, hot liquid tar. I didn’t know it’s a regional thing.





That sounds like a fabulous idea.








.


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Debo22 said:


> Yes, hot liquid tar. I didn’t know it’s a regional thing.



hell, I aint never even heard of anything like that for a shower pan........


----------



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> hell, I aint never even heard of anything like that for a shower pan........


Yea some people around here use them,it kinda a California thing so I been told,but I don't like it and no way would I use it on my own shower,I want that sloped membrane on my shower pan


----------



## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

If tar can seal a wooden flat roof.. I'm sure it works just fine for a shower pan


----------



## VictorPlumber (Feb 26, 2019)

Tango said:


> Ok so I called 2 suppliers, they never heard of an internal "doughnut" fernco, one of them didn't know what lead wool and pc4 were. In any case I'm pretty much wasting my time with all the suppliers in town. One supplier told me to use a 5"x4" and put put it on top. I just don't want to buy a bunch of rubber couplings to find out they don't fit or leaks.
> 
> I'll be looking if I can order them online.


Lowes has it:
https://www.lowes.ca/product/pvc-fittings/ameri-connect-pipe-hub-flexible-donut-70240


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

VictorPlumber said:


> Lowes has it:
> https://www.lowes.ca/product/pvc-fittings/ameri-connect-pipe-hub-flexible-donut-70240





we call them " tight seals" in my area...


----------

