# Brand new water heater



## dclark (Dec 12, 2010)

Repaired the heating, glanced behind me at the water heater..

New, installed 3 weeks ago, by others.

The recirc pump is a Taco SS pumping into the bottom of the tank, controlled by an old school timer without aquastat.

The swing check.. uh, has swung..

The sharkbites .. ok. guessing the installer ran out of 90's, but had a drop ear SQ 90 and a SB x MIP.

SB flex connectors, well, I don't use them, but I think they are part of the trade now. I'll take the extra few minutes and solder.

If those were the only issues, I wouldn't have said anything, or even taken pics.

The trap on the vent.. seal depth was only 3 inches.. thought you needed 4 minimum? :laughing:


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## plumber tom (Aug 10, 2014)

Well, on the positive side, there's a heat shield for the floor joists..:laughing: So how was the draft?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Call the gas co and inspector and shut that down before someone gets hurt

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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Get out the carbon monoxide tester and check for CO in that area.

What a hack job....{shaking head}


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## Nevada Plumber (Jan 3, 2009)

That's just a sad and dangerous install.

I can almost hear the homeowner saying "What do you mean there is a problem? I have plenty of hot water."


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

Nevada Plumber said:


> That's just a sad and dangerous install.
> 
> I can almost hear the homeowner saying "What do you mean there is a problem? I have plenty of hot water."


"What do you mean there are problems, its been working fine." 

"The last plumber that was here never said anything about problems"


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I am so sick of you do-gooders following me around with a camera.


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## panther (Oct 27, 2010)

Or. "It's worked this long so far and I'm still here".


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## Stptog (Jul 13, 2014)

I've never used those flex connectors, but for that location It seems very reasonable:yes: then again that heater never should have been installed in that space to begin with if it can't be vented right


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Stptog said:


> I've never used those flex connectors, but for that location It seems very reasonable:yes: then again that heater never should have been installed in that space to begin with if it can't be vented right


in the fine print on many brands of flex connectors it states that they are not supposed to be used when a recirulation pump is being used....


did Lowes install that heater or was it Home Repo..??


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I'm shocked that they are even approved on gas HWH, being so close to single wall pipe. Looks like a rupture waiting to happen. Wouldn't fly here. Disgusting work

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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

The best part is the sharkbite ear ell with the sharkbite male adapter. That is one expensive elbow. Lol

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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

He could have just about did the whole thing in copper for what that 1 rigged up elbow costs. Lol

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## dclark (Dec 12, 2010)

All good comments!
Well, except for MrBiz..

Stop trying to take credit for some of MY finest SharkBitery to date.:no:
You also can't take credit for my way of installing swing checks on recircs.
Installed vertical/down flow like that totally eliminates wear on the valve seat and NO call-backs for chattering. Never mind that they just hang open.:laughing:

This water heater was installed by a plumbing and heating company that’s been in business since 1956.

Not sure of their setup, but I'd bet they are full commission.


The large house is in an affluent neighborhood; the couple is retired, and only needed the 50 gallon to replace the original 50 because they have a large soaker tub.

The price they paid was about 75% of the cost of installing any on demand heater, and a few hundred more than I would have charged for a power vented storage water heater (polypropylene vent).

Money was not an issue with this couple.
Makes my teeth hurt when someone gets work of this quality .
I shudder to think of the possible the outcome if they had not had someone inspecting their heating system within a few weeks of this work being done.

When we install replacement gas water heaters here, we can purchase permits for a slightly reduced rate, and submit a list of installations to the AHJ every three months. Depending on your history, the AHJ will inspect some or all of your work.
The permit is a non-removable decal, which must be applied to the water heater.
This heater didn't have one.

Gas contractors here are required to post a bond annually to the AHJ.
If a Safety Officer (inspector) directs a contractor to rectify any deficiencies and they do not comply, that bond can be cashed and put towards hiring a 3rd party to satisfy the orders.
The installing fitter would likely be board reviewed.

I'll keep you posted on the final outcome.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

dclark said:


> All good comments!
> Well, except for MrBiz..
> 
> Stop trying to take credit for some of MY finest SharkBitery to date.:no:
> ...


 



So, have you shown the customer the god-awful mess you found..?? 

Have you or the customer turned this mess into the permit division??

Sometimes I have considered doing this , but I never wanted to stir up crap with competitors... it comes back around somehow...

 I always just politely told the customer that they have a mess and a dangerous situation on their hands and to complain to the person that did the work...and force them to make it right.... 

.and please keep my name out of it..
.they dont need to know my name...:yes:


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## dclark (Dec 12, 2010)

First phone call today with the homeowner, I stressed that I should have shut him down right there, and that if it was not resolved by 9, I'd have to notify the AHJ. Not that I was being an ass, but it's MY license on the line now (last guy to look at it).

Second call, the homeowner told me that the installing company had sent a senior tech, who spent less than 2 minutes in the crawlspace inspecting the heater.

His words were " We can't leave it like that, I'll see if I can find a shorter 50 Gal heater".. and shortly after that.. "We will be installing a 50 Gal power vented heater on Monday, sorry for the inconvenience".

My faith in the competition restored.

My faith in commissioned installers.. not so much.

Would I have reported it if this was not the outcome?
Absolutely.

I AM feeling the guilt that I did not shut it down immediately, but relieved that it will be resolved.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

dclark said:


> First phone call today with the homeowner, I stressed that I should have shut him down right there, and that if it was not resolved by 9, I'd have to notify the AHJ. Not that I was being an ass, but it's MY license on the line now (last guy to look at it). Second call, the homeowner told me that the installing company had sent a senior tech, who spent less than 2 minutes in the crawlspace inspecting the heater. His words were " We can't leave it like that, I'll see if I can find a shorter 50 Gal heater".. and shortly after that.. "We will be installing a 50 Gal power vented heater on Monday, sorry for the inconvenience". My faith in the competition restored. My faith in commissioned installers.. not so much. Would I have reported it if this was not the outcome? Absolutely. I AM feeling the guilt that I did not shut it down immediately, but relieved that it will be resolved.



Good job, at least it's resolved .

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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

dclark said:


> My faith in the competition restored.
> 
> My faith in commissioned installers.. not so much.


Quit painting commission paid plumbers with a broad paint brush. Pay systems do NOT create dishonest people. They may encourage those who are already crooked to be unethical but its not the system doing it and its not exclusive to commission based pay. I've seen plenty of crooked hourly plumbers who mislead customers because it was easier than doing a proper, more expensive, repair being they were paid the same regardless. Commission pay DOES NOT mean pushy sales or guaranteed sloppy, expensive work. Its up to the individual.


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## dclark (Dec 12, 2010)

I did some asking around.

The company in question pays their techs 2.5 hours to install a gas water heater. They pay this if the heater takes 60 minutes, or all day. Flat rate. Billable hours.
There may or may not have been more time allotted for the recirc pump, which looks like he took about 10 minutes to do.

The 2.5 hours includes pickup of material, install, and disposal of the old tank.

This water heater install progressed for the tech as follows (from the homeowner).
- Not sure where the tech was dispatched from, but their shop is 45+ minutes from the jobsite.
- Dispatched to install a 40Gal gas.
- Arrive, unbox, drag into crawlspace, start piping, homeowner asks him why the tank is smaller, when a 50 was requested.
- Call dispatch, confirm that it was supposed to be a 50, rebox, drag it all back out to his truck, return to supplier, pick up a 50, head back and install tank.
- The nearest supplier is about 20-25 minutes away that sells this brand.
Probably did the vent last, knew it was wrong (he had to), and collected the payment.

At a guess, the installer worked 4 - 5 hours min. for 2.5 hours pay.


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## dclark (Dec 12, 2010)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Quit painting commission paid plumbers with a broad paint brush. *Pay systems do NOT create dishonest people*. *They may encourage those who are already crooked to be unethical* but its not the system doing it and its not exclusive to commission based pay. I've seen plenty of *crooked hourly plumbers* who* mislead customers* *because it was easier* than doing a proper, more expensive, repair being they were paid the same regardless. Commission pay DOES NOT mean *pushy sales or guaranteed sloppy, expensive work*. Its up to the individual.


 
Lets not imply that I said any of the above. 

I did not call this installer or company dishonest or unethical or crooked.
I implied that the installer was *incompetent*.
If you looked at the pictures...

I did judge whoever the installer was at a glance.

He either was trying to impress someone by showing how fast he was, or wanted off early, or wanted to get to his next call to maximize his pay for the day, or just had no knowledge.


Fast, cheap, good. Any 2.

There are a ton of OMSs out there that do first class work, and they are the epitome of commissioned workers.
My longest time friend is a OMS, and will take all day to make it right if he has to. On principle.
I will stand beside him any day.


And while I'm at it, I'll add MY name to the incompetent list.

I did bring it to the homeowners attention, but I failed to SHUT IT DOWN immediately.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Quit painting commission paid plumbers with a broad paint brush. Pay systems do NOT create dishonest people. They may encourage those who are already crooked to be unethical but its not the system doing it and its not exclusive to commission based pay. I've seen plenty of crooked hourly plumbers who mislead customers because it was easier than doing a proper, more expensive, repair being they were paid the same regardless. Commission pay DOES NOT mean pushy sales or guaranteed sloppy, expensive work. Its up to the individual.



Agree here some and not. There are indeed crooked plumbers/unethical plumbers in both pay systems. But I think the commission pay system is a problem. I tried commission briefly years ago (late 90's) when it was standard to pay 38-45%. You could charge a reasonable amount and all sides would be happy. Now I see 19-23% commission rates, in my opinion forcing the plumber to charge enormous prices in order to earn decent pay.

Sloppy work is usually lack of skills and knowledge.

David


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## juantheplumber (Aug 4, 2014)

Wow! I'm lost for words on that one. I think it time for this guy to hang up his wrenches! Or in this case, NEVER should of picked them up in the first place!


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

dclark said:


> Lets not imply that I said any of the above.
> 
> I did not call this installer or company dishonest or unethical or crooked.
> I implied that the installer was *incompetent*.
> ...


Granted, I did take it further than you did. All you said was your faith in commission plumbers isn't restored. I agree the guy or gal who installed it was either incompetent or lazy. I just don't see how you can assume it's partly due to being paid by commission pay. 

I have just seen a lot of negativism here regarding commission pay based on some scum bags. I have always worked commission and paid the 20% off the top. I was never encouraged to rip people off. I was encouraged to up sell but that's a good thing if done honestly. Now I am a OMS.

I do agree that commission pay unfortunately does bring in scum bags and must be watched over but its not exclusive to commission pay. Crappy work is crappy work. We probably agree more than disagree on this.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

dclark said:


> First phone call today with the homeowner, I stressed that I should have shut him down right there, and that if it was not resolved by 9, I'd have to notify the AHJ. Not that I was being an ass, but it's MY license on the line now (last guy to look at it).
> 
> Second call, the homeowner told me that the installing company had sent a senior tech, who spent less than 2 minutes in the crawlspace inspecting the heater.
> 
> ...



But are you going to follow up and confirm the work was done, 
and done correctly ?
after all your name is still on the furnace and someone looking at them both would assume that maybe you did both of them !


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

JERRYMAC said:


> But are you going to follow up and confirm the work was done,
> and done correctly ?
> after all your name is still on the furnace and someone looking at them both would assume that maybe you did both of them !


 

I think he has done all that is necessary, if they dont get it done now , then you wash your hands of the whole thing.....


you cant run around acting like the plumbing police


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## Nathan901 (Feb 11, 2012)

Let me know when someone gets 'proper plumbing police' badges made. 







Cause I want one.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Nathan901 said:


> Let me know when someone gets 'proper plumbing police' badges made. Cause I want one.


I've got one, lol. It's even in a badge holder and all.lol

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