# Tricks of the trade



## Mykeeb33

If you're a top notch plumber, you should always be looking for ways to improve your installations. How can I save the company money without compromising my work? This is one tip I came up with while working on a three story 600 man Army barracks. All the piping fed down from the attic. (fifty sets of drops for 300 lavs.) Each floor had back to back lavs to pipe. So any thing that could be done more efficiently was gong to be multiplied by 300. You can see by the picture that piping the water on one side of the waste pipe saves at least 10 small fittings and multiple little pieces of copper pipe from the more traditional cold on the right, hot on the left 8" spread configuration. Hot water rises, so the plumbers always put the hot on top.
Another money/time saving tip was writing an RFI getting the cabinet manufacturer to build them without a back panel. All the stops could be installed before the cabinets were set. It was so much easier for the plumbers to put these 600 stops on without having to lay on their backs.
Disclaimer: I know many of you older guys will say "Duh", but I want some of the younger plumbers to put these things in the back of their heads and realize that not everything has to be done the same old way. Always be thinking, looking for a better way.:thumbsup:
Please post some of your own time saving tips. We're never too old to learn something new!


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## wyrickmech

You know I'm not so sure that this isn't a halfway good idea. The trim out looks good and it's in a cabinet. Why not as long as it is neat. A company I used to work at always bought 20 in supply's and we would bend and cut off a portion of the leight. I decided to change company Ruffin height to accommodate 12 inch supply's we saved 950 dollars on one job just off of that change. Keep up the good work. It's always a good thing to think out of the box.


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## OpenSights

That would not fly with my last boss. He was a stickler who did new construction in Jackson Hole Wyoming installing $3500 lav faucets and running 2" Rehau PEX. It helped me big time working for him. You know the PITA customers that complain about the smallest thing? Well now every tub waste and overflow installed, the waste basket is now lined up, overflow screws are straight up and down or level if it's a flat head, phillips is a cross or an X.

Makes sense to me though, and I'd always check with the customer first. Some will be just fine with it and don't care, some can be hard about it. At least that is what I see out here.

Your picture makes me wish ABS was used out here more often BTW. Unless it's a crappy home owner job or crappy handy man work you never see it with the exception of trailers, which I hate.


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## Mykeeb33

ABS was another RFI. Also SS braided supplies and 1-1/2" PVC traps. I never use 1-1/4" traps. Corp of Engineers were very accommodating on this project.


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## jc-htownplumber

What i do is on all angle stops is always install at rough in. Remove the handles and nut and ferrel and tape them off to cover them. I also started roughing in water stub out for toilet at 8". This way a 12" supply works on both standard and comfort heigh toilets


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## Flyout95

jc-htownplumber said:


> What i do is on all angle stops is always install at rough in. Remove the handles and nut and ferrel and tape them off to cover them. I also started roughing in water stub out for toilet at 8". This way a 12" supply works on both standard and comfort heigh toilets


You just order split ring escustions?


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## OpenSights

Btw, Mykeeb33, no stud guards? Kinda hard to tell if their needed with the angle of the picture.


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## Michaelcookplum

Great ideas! Seems like you are saving some money, did you factor in approx 8$ for 2 extra hold-rites? A couple more 90's and scrap pipe might not add up to as much saving as you think. But maybe so, just a thought. Also,just out of curiosity, what is the wye for below the 2" cross for?


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## plumbdrum

OpenSights said:


> Btw, Mykeeb33, no stud guards? Kinda hard to tell if their needed with the angle of the picture.



Looks like the pipes penetrate through the center of stud, standard length Sheetrock screw would never touch it.


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## plumbdrum

Michaelcookplum said:


> Great ideas! Seems like you are saving some money, did you factor in approx 8$ for 2 extra hold-rites? A couple more 90's and scrap pipe might not add up to as much saving as you think. But maybe so, just a thought. Also,just out of curiosity, what is the wye for below the 2" cross for?



Wye would be for fixtures above, duh


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## OpenSights

Michaelcookplum said:


> Great ideas! Seems like you are saving some money, did you factor in approx 8$ for 2 extra hold-rites? A couple more 90's and scrap pipe might not add up to as much saving as you think. But maybe so, just a thought. Also,just out of curiosity, what is the wye for below the 2" cross for?


Re-vent instead of an AAV?


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## OpenSights

plumbdrum said:


> Looks like the pipes penetrate through the center of stud, standard length Sheetrock screw would never touch it.


Code here is less than 2" and it needs a stud guard. Took me two looks to notice... but pictures never show everything. Not trying to pick.


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## plumbdrum

OpenSights said:


> Code here is less than 2" and it needs a stud guard. Took me two looks to notice... but pictures never show everything. Not trying to pick.



Does that 2" measurement include the thickness of 1/2" Sheetrock?


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## OpenSights

Yes, to the side, not the center of the pipe. Most metal stud walls I've dealt with out here are 2X3.


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## KoleckeINC

What's with those premade air chambers! Not flyin here. Code for stud guards is anything less than 1 1/2" so good.


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## rjbphd

KoleckeINC said:


> What's with those premade air chambers! Not flyin here. Code for stud guards is anything less than 1 1/2" so good.


What's wrong with those air chambrs????


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## KoleckeINC

rjbphd said:


> What's wrong with those air chambrs????


I thought you were from Illinois. They stepped over a dollar to pick up a dime. We use 12" capped pipes.


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## rjbphd

KoleckeINC said:


> I thought you were from Illinois. They stepped over a dollar to pick up a dime. We use 12" capped pipes.


I am from Illinois and those precharged air chambers are approved by the state... I've have failed inspections reveresed by telling the so called plumbing inspectors to call the state office to get educated.. those 12" dead end pipe becomes useless after couple weeks..


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## KoleckeINC

I think you have folding ruler poisoning. That vertical airchamber will never make a sound or get water slugged. Please explain the science of how a 12" vertical air chaimber will ever be useless. The state also allows galvanized pipe for 
building drains below grade-not a good idea.... And pex, Cpvc, shark bites etc.


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## rjbphd

KoleckeINC said:


> I think you have folding ruler poisoning. That vertical airchamber will never make a sound or get water slugged. Please explain the science of how a 12" vertical air chaimber will ever be useless.


Lol about the folding ruler quote... if you were in well pump/tank/hydronic heating service guy.. you would know... air will arborbs into water under pressure.. herby, the dead end pipe will be full of sagant water.. there's a 48 pages of engineer report on same from sue chief website.. as well Watts, Well-X-Trol,Bell&Gosset, Dan Holonan's books, among many others..


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## KoleckeINC

As a licensed plumber you would know that-water mixes/moves within that pipe up and down every time you turn on that part of the plumbing system. It will not be stagnant.


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## rjbphd

KoleckeINC said:


> As a licensed plumber you would know that-water mixes/moves within that pipe up and down every time you turn on that part of the plumbing system. It will not be stagnant.


True, but, if one branch doesn't get use that often.. a short dead end water will get stagnant... any well water guy will know that..


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## KoleckeINC

I ain't drinking the cool-aid-But we both know 2' is the max dead end. So the grey area is how long before it breeds legionella? Will that 12" pipe begin to make noise and deviate from its intended purpose of installation ever? I have not heard of it yet. And the country of Chicago makes me do it that way.


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## rjbphd

KoleckeINC said:


> I ain't drinking the cool-aid-But we both know 2' is the max dead end. So the grey area is how long before it breeds legionella? Will that 12" pipe begin to make noise and deviate from its intended purpose of installation ever? I have not heard of it yet. And the country of Chicago makes me do it that way.


Yes, the any dead end will get waterlogged.. keep ur mind open and study this.. which why the precharged chamber were made over 30 years ago... every time I replace the tub/shower valve with Moentrol.. the pre charged air chambers get installed, in any position.. apt tenants noticed a huge differance with much less water hammering in the building.. have 3 more units to go ..


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## Mykeeb33

I got to agree with rjbphd about the air chamber water absorbing the air over time. .......Hard to believe Illinois inspectors don't like them.


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## wyrickmech

KoleckeINC said:


> What's with those premade air chambers! Not flyin here. Code for stud guards is anything less than 1 1/2" so good.



It's code in a lot of places. Old air chambers break the rule on dead water. Air arresters only have water two inches in. And are warranty for a million cycles.


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## jc-htownplumber

Flyout95 said:


> You just order split ring escustions?


yup keep a box of iron pipe, and copper in he truck


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## KoleckeINC

But I looked in a Sioux chief mini arrestor today and I didn't see anything. Looked like empty space. Some kind of white cap STUCK in the top of it. Kind of hard to believe it's better when I've never heard knocking from the year 1902 air chambers. They do just as well and COST LESS


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## rjbphd

KoleckeINC said:


> But I looked in a Sioux chief mini arrestor today and I didn't see anything. Looked like empty space. Some kind of white cap STUCK in the top of it. Kind of hard to believe it's better when I've never heard knocking from the year 1902 air chambers. They do just as well and COST LESS


Obvisbly, missed the display at the show regarding the useless dead end pipe.. download a article written about it by one of the best plumbing engineer in the trade.. Julus Ballanco.. he described it perfectly..


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## KoleckeINC

Nope, you'll always be wrong
😄


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## rjbphd

KoleckeINC said:


> Nope, you'll always be wrong
> ?de04


Another closed mind person... as stated before, if u a well water and/hydronic heating guy.. u'll know..


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## KoleckeINC

Last word 
😜


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## leakfree

I'm with rjbphd except the water in the A/C doesn't absorb the air,the pressurized air is dissolved into the water.I've never seen a A/C full of air but I have stopped water hammer more than once by draining a system and leaving everything open for a while.The only thing that changed was air was allowed into the system,maybe it refilled those A/C's with a little fresh air?

Read up on how a basic hydraulic ram works sometime,it relies on water hammer to work.


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## KoleckeINC

So drain and fill the supply once 50 years. Probably gonna happen anyway


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## plumbdrum

The hammer arrestors should have a access panel or installed under vanity


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## Mykeeb33

plumbdrum said:


> The hammer arrestors should have a access panel or installed under vanity


 Why? There are no user serviceable parts on these.


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## plumbdrum

It's a mechanical device, it will break down eventually


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## plumbdrum

Mykeeb33 said:


> Why? There are no user serviceable parts on these.



I take it back, instructions for THAT model say access panels not required


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## Mykeeb33

jc-htownplumber said:


> What i do is on all angle stops is always install at rough in. Remove the handles and nut and ferrel and tape them off to cover them. I also started roughing in water stub out for toilet at 8". This way a 12" supply works on both standard and comfort heigh toilets


I would be afraid of guys losing all those parts. Plus, you're unnecessarily adding time. (two visits for one task) ...I do like the higher rough for toilets. Mainly to keep it above the base molding or tile.


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## mccmech

Mykeeb33 said:


> I would be afraid of guys losing all those parts. Plus, you're unnecessarily adding time. (two visits for one task) ...I do like the higher rough for toilets. Mainly to keep it above the base molding or tile.


How does that make two trips for one task? Ya make the rough stub out with the valve on the end instead of a cap. One and done!!!! Yer gonna be back to install faucet & connect to water & drain at final anyway, that's when you put the handle back on the valves. Even the most moronic cabinet guy can drill 1 1/4" hole to fit over the valve body, and yes escutions will cover the hole.


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## 4Aces Plumbing

Huh?? Now we are trusting cabinet guys to make good on their measurements with 1-1/4" holes? :whistling2:

I would have a mutiny on my hands around here!


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## mccmech

4Aces Plumbing said:


> Huh?? Now we are trusting cabinet guys to make good on their measurements with 1-1/4" holes? :whistling2:
> 
> I would have a mutiny on my hands around here!


Firstly, I don't trust ANYONE. That said, I don't care about their skills. They make the hole large enough to go past a valve body, end of story. Even the worst guy will err on the side of caution and make their hole bigger. Sorry about your luck if the people you work with can't handle this concept. ;-)


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## Plumbus

Do you use a stud punch or a step bit to make your holes? Either way, how do you secure and isolate the tube within the stud?
I use these;
http://www.siouxchief.com/products/support/supply-hangers/plastic-cts/cts-isolators/pipeeye


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## Grimmeute

KoleckeINC said:


> But I looked in a Sioux chief mini arrestor today and I didn't see anything. Looked like empty space. Some kind of white cap STUCK in the top of it. Kind of hard to believe it's better when I've never heard knocking from the year 1902 air chambers. They do just as well and COST LESS


Have you ever seen a guy get one too hot from trying to un sweat it? There is a lot more then just empty space. This white looking crap starts oozing out of them.


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## sparky

rjbphd said:


> Obvisbly, missed the display at the show regarding the useless dead end pipe.. download a article written about it by one of the best plumbing engineer in the trade.. Julus Ballanco.. he described it perfectly..


Way I learned it and do it today is on all flush valve toilets/urinals I will put a tee in wall at my stub out instead of a 90 putting a 12" air chamber right there at the flush valve,but we use mechanical arresters on the main water line coming down into the chase,no hammer at all:yes:


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## sparky

mccmech said:


> How does that make two trips for one task? Ya make the rough stub out with the valve on the end instead of a cap. One and done!!!! Yer gonna be back to install faucet & connect to water & drain at final anyway, that's when you put the handle back on the valves. Even the most moronic cabinet guy can drill 1 1/4" hole to fit over the valve body, and yes escutions will cover the hole.


Does the duct tape stick to the valves makin a mess???


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## mccmech

sparky said:


> Does the duct tape stick to the valves makin a mess???


Not sure I understand your question. I never mentioned anything about duct tape.


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## sparky

mccmech said:


> Not sure I understand your question. I never mentioned anything about duct tape.


What kind of tape do you use that will stay on???


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## Mykeeb33

sparky said:


> Way I learned it and do it today is on all flush valve toilets/urinals I will put a tee in wall at my stub out instead of a 90 putting a 12" air chamber right there at the flush valve,but we use mechanical arresters on the main water line coming down into the chase,no hammer at all:yes:


I like that way also. You can then use a 2 hole strap or holdrite on the air chamber to help make the flush valve rock solid. I hate loose flush valves.


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## Mykeeb33

The real money maker on this install was getting the cabinet maker, Mortenson superintendent, and COE to go for building the cabinet with no back, or only a partial back. It's extremely difficult to reach in to a two foot wide cabinet to work. We got in to each room right after the painter so we had a clean obstruction free wall to install stops. No tape needed. Times that by 300 lavs and 300 kitchen sinks. We saved thousands!


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## skoronesa

sparky said:


> What kind of tape do you use that will stay on???





Plastic food wrap and sometimes a rubberband if you get the cheap stuff.


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