# Plumbers buying shark bites



## plumber tim

The other day I was at the supply house and this plumber bought at least 20 shark bite fittings. He said that it was for a old farm house that had many frozen pipes. What a hack if you ask me a plumber has no need for shark bite fittings except for maybe a cap for temp use. Why the hell would any one use them when any handy hack can install them.


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## MTDUNN

plumber tim said:


> The other day I was at the supply house and this plumber bought at least 20 shark bite fittings. He said that it was for a old farm house that had many frozen pipes. What a hack if you ask me a plumber has no need for shark bite fittings except for maybe a cap for temp use. Why the hell would any one use them when any handy hack can install them.


You must be new around here


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## plumber tim

MTDUNN said:


> You must be new around here


Not new just venting about hacks.


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## CaberTosser

I've only ever used them as temporary patches, not permanent repairs. Not a single one I ever put in is still in place . Funny, someone started a thumbs-up thread about them on my hunting chat forum today :lol:


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## LordOfThePipe

Agreed ,I don't ever use sharkbites and never will


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## gear junkie

The one place I like them is for the tp on a water heater.


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## wyrickmech

There is a place and time for almost every fitting out there transition between cpvc and copper or pex is one. There is a sharkbite that transitions from quest to pex,copper or cpvc. Also caps are useful in testing. That being said they have a very narrow field of uses. The biggest problem is unqualified people are using this product like it is the fix all witch makes repairs a little tricky sometimes. I cut a recirculating line the other day and it twisted like it was cut free on the other end, nope it was a sharkbite.


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## love2surf927

gear junkie said:


> The one place I like them is for the tp on a water heater.


Some dumbass might read this and decide to stick a shark bite cap on his leaking t&p, just saying.


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## Redwood

love2surf927 said:


> Some dumbass might read this and decide to stick a shark bite cap on his leaking t&p, just saying.


You're right that would be pure hackery...
You should always use a 3/4" plug for that...:laughing:

Just last week during the freeze when I was rushing around, I used 12 sharkbites on one job, and 6 on the next...
I've got 30 of them ready to go in my tool bucket on every job...:yes:

I wasn't hacking either... Quality work done fast!
Sharkbites have a place!
I'll tell you about it someday... Maybe...


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## redbeardplumber

plumber tim said:


> The other day I was at the supply house and this plumber bought at least 20 shark bite fittings. He said that it was for a old farm house that had many frozen pipes. What a hack if you ask me a plumber has no need for shark bite fittings except for maybe a cap for temp use. Why the hell would any one use them when any handy hack can install them.


I saw this a few weeks ago as well. I called him on it.... I said why would a real plumber need those???? He was honest.. He said he was LAZY.....


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## tims007

there is a company here in the nw that stocks them .. i am glad i do not work for them anymore due to the fact that his employees will keep me working lol .. who the eff plumbs in a single handle shower valve with shark bites ... from copper in the walls to pex. i told that kid dont ever do that again he was like what its quick and easy .. i said solder it in .. he said that takes to long . then charge more .. he said what ever and walked away and the owner of the company was like what they are quick and easy .. so glad i left ..ugh 

p.s. MTDunn it was done in your neck of the woods ...


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## rjbphd

LordOfThePipe said:


> Agreed ,I don't ever use sharkbites and never will


 Sniffed... he's in... now get us some SubwaYsm.m.


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## MTDUNN

tims007 said:


> there is a company here in the nw that stocks them .. i am glad i do not work for them anymore due to the fact that his employees will keep me working lol .. who the eff plumbs in a single handle shower valve with shark bites ... from copper in the walls i told that kid dont ever do that again he was like what its quick and easy .. i said solder it in .. he said that takes to long . then charge more .. he said what ever and walked away and the owner of the company was like what they are quick and easy .. so glad i left ..ugh p.s. MTDunn it was done in your neck of the woods ...


I'll be waiting for the repair call


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## Dpeckplb

I'll admit very reluctantly, I've had to use then last week due to locations of the pipe. I couldn't solder anything on it without catching the 100 year old plate on fire. I unfortunately did the hack repair of using a shark bite cap and re routing the water line to where it won't have a chance of freezing. The reason I didn't just cap that line where it went into the space between the last joist and the belt is because there were tees feeding other fixtures up stream of the split. The h/o wouldn't pay to reroute everything.


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## rjbphd

dpeckplb said:


> i'll admit very reluctantly, i've had to use then last week due to locations of the pipe. I couldn't solder anything on it without catching the 100 year old plate on fire. I unfortunately did the hack repair of using a shark bite cap and re routing the water line to where it won't have a chance of freezing. The reason i didn't just cap that line where it went into the space between the last joist and the belt is because there were tees feeding other fixtures up stream of the split. The h/o wouldn't pay to reroute everything.


 > ['1


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## MTDUNN

rjbphd said:


> > ['1


My thoughts exactly


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## Turd Chaser

We have several customers including commercial restaurants that are piped in cpvc. They are constantly snapping off lines. Shark bites are a savior when you cannot wait for the cpvc glue to set up. I usually try to sell them on a repipe stating that the only thing that cpvc is good for is for non pressurized condensate drains and t&p discharge tubes. I don't like shark bites, however I do use them on occasion. What's more so is my extreme dislike of cpvc.


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## Hoosier Plumber

Best I could find.


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## Tommy plumber

I like to use and re-use the caps, both 1/2" & 3/4".


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## Chauncey

*Sharkbites*

They make great brass bucket fillers for the srrap yard. You keep buying them and I will keep scraping them. :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## plungerboy

I only carry one type of pex on my truck. I am not going to buy 10 different tools for all types of pex. When I need to transition from one pex to Another will use a shark bit. How else would you make the transition.


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## Hoosier Plumber

plungerboy said:


> I only carry one type of pex on my truck. I am not going to buy 10 different tools for all types of pex. When I need to transition from one pex to Another will use a shark bit. How else would you make the transition.


CPVC transition union, male to female adapters, compression fittings, to name a couple.


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## Letterrip

wyrickmech said:


> There is a place and time for almost every fitting out there transition between cpvc and copper or pex is one. There is a sharkbite that transitions from quest to pex,copper or cpvc. Also caps are useful in testing. That being said they have a very narrow field of uses. The biggest problem is unqualified people are using this product like it is the fix all witch makes repairs a little tricky sometimes. I cut a recirculating line the other day and it twisted like it was cut free on the other end, nope it was a sharkbite.


Just curious, why not a stainless male x CPVC adaptor. Local Ferguson sells them here. I also carry MIP x poly crimp adapters. I believe Sioux Chief has them. I very rarely run into pex here.


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## wyrickmech

Letterrip said:


> Just curious, why not a stainless male x CPVC adaptor. Local Ferguson sells them here. I also carry MIP x poly crimp adapters. I believe Sioux Chief has them. I very rarely run into pex here.


most suppliers around here don't carry the other adapters. The sharkbite dose give the ability for the different materials to expand and contract at different rates without any damage to themselves.


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## Michaelcookplum

gear junkie said:


> The one place I like them is for the tp on a water heater.


Why is that?


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## Hoosier Plumber

The unfortunate reality is that shark bite type fittings actually work, and so far actually hold. Can't tell how many times I've seen a shark bite in the plumbing system and the damn thing is holding just fine.


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## Michaelcookplum

plungerboy said:


> I only carry one type of pex on my truck. I am not going to buy 10 different tools for all types of pex. When I need to transition from one pex to Another will use a shark bit. How else would you make the transition.


Don't use pex duh


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## wyrickmech

Hoosier Plumber said:


> The unfortunate reality is that shark bite type fittings actually work, and so far actually hold. Can't tell how many times I've seen a shark bite in the plumbing system and the damn thing is holding just fine.


 the biggest tragedy is they sell them like candy to the public. If they would have limited sales to pros they would have been limited in there application.


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## gear junkie

Michaelcookplum said:


> Why is that?


Because Cali requires flex lines because of earthquakes so by using a sharkbite on a tp, makes removing the WH easier.


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## plungerboy

Michaelcookplum said:


> Don't use pex duh


Thanks genius


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## plungerboy

Hoosier Plumber said:


> CPVC transition union, male to female adapters, compression fittings, to name a couple.


I must be missing something. You can transition from 
Aqua PEX
Viega PEX
Hydro PEX
Watts PEX
Uponor

With a cpvc union. 










IF you don't have the tools for all the different pex how do you add a male adapter. 

I do understand a compression fitting,with a stiffener


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## Shoot'N'Plumber

Hmn! What are these sharkbites everyone speaks of? Must be an east coast thing, I mean we NEVER see them out here in SoCal:laughing:


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## Narin

Had a new guy ask me why we don't use sharkbite. lol..


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## LordOfThePipe

Narin said:


> Had a new guy ask me why we don't use sharkbite. lol..


That's funny , I think in 10-15 years when those o rings go bad it'll be work for us fixen them


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## Narin

I think I've used a sharkbite fitting once, two couplings used. Only reason I used them was because it was the only possible way to connect without taking a whole bench top/cabinet out. Kitchen sink leads from island bench we're too low for me to make a proper connection. They were under the bottom shelf.


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## MTDUNN

Half the plumbers who say they don't use them here are probably lying to avoid a beat down. Mob mentality runs strong here


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## love2surf927

MTDUNN said:


> Half the plumbers who say they don't use them here are probably lying to avoid a beat down. Mob mentality runs strong here



Haha true that!


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## SewerRat

MTDUNN said:


> Half the plumbers who say they don't use them here are probably lying to avoid a beat down. Mob mentality runs strong here


Interesting you say that. I've had the same thoughts about other products as well. To read the online forums you wouldn't think that cell core PVC was good for absolutely nothing but it leaves the supply houses like free donuts at a police convention. Same with Fernco. The Fernco stock rarely has any dust settled on it. Oh, and did I mention SDR35? 

Not defending these products, but the fact is no matter how popular it is to act like we wouldn't touch them to save our lives most of us do at times.


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## MTDUNN

That cabinet man that busted some foam core on another thread here probably would not have happened if it was schd 40. I also saw cpvc in that picture


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## plumber tim

MTDUNN said:


> That cabinet man that busted some foam core on another thread here probably would not have happened if it was schd 40. I also saw cpvc in that picture


I find that sch 40 shatters easier than foam core in the cold. 

And here is another pic of the damage the cabinet guy did. Would have happened with sch 40 as well.


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## plbgbiz

Cat_Ass_Trophy said:


> Foam core is schedule 40.


In dimension, not in quality or durability.


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## plbgbiz

Cat_Ass_Trophy said:


> That doesn't change its IAPMO designation, right? Unless you don't give two ****s about accuracy.


I give many ****s about accuracy.

IAPMO certification doesn't change the fact that foam core PVC bows, bends, and breaks easier than sch40 PVC.


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## plbgbiz

Cat_Ass_Trophy said:


> ...You should learn to pick your battles more wisely.


Awww, that's so cute. :laughing:


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## wyrickmech

Iapmo is minimum standards. Every pipe has its place the fact is sch 40 is stronger and does not have as many problems as foam core.


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## Hoosier Plumber

wyrickmech said:


> Iapmo is minimum standards. Every pipe has its place the fact is sch 40 is stronger and does not have as many problems as foam core.


When I use my Milwaukee shear foam core usually breaks easier than standard sch 40.


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## dclarke

I'll be honest. I use them fairly often. We have more trailers around here than houses it seems. Plus I've worked in many houses with all the different piping materials. So its great for transitioning to make repairs. Its also hard to compete when every other company in the area is using them.


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## jeffreyplumber

Shark bites good, CPVC good, Pex good, copper bad, I don't want to have to carry a torch solder and flux on the truck.


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## dclarke

I like copper. I don't like copper in my area. Unless they are on city water or have a conditioner the water eats the copper.


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## wyrickmech

Hoosier Plumber said:


> When I use my Milwaukee shear foam core usually breaks easier than standard sch 40.


 yes it does that is why it is limited to drainage. In stressful conditions you will find it breaks a lot easer. I ruffed in a job one time where the iron workers were moving a beam across the building very slowly because of its size. The beam was so large the operator could not see the two gang bathrooms in front of him. Needless to say all I heard was the popping of plastic. Of the 30 risers five survived. There was a mix of pipes it was not uncommon to save scraps and use them for risers.I noticed the foam snapped and cracked the sch 40 folded and deformed there was no good way to fix them but the sch 40 seemed a little more forgiving.


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## gear junkie

jeffreyplumber said:


> Shark bites good, CPVC good, Pex good, copper bad, I don't want to have to carry a torch solder and flux on the truck.


How come?


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## mightypipe

gear junkie said:


> How come?


Sarcasm


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

jeffreyplumber said:


> Shark bites good, CPVC good, Pex good, copper bad, I don't want to have to carry a torch solder and flux on the truck.


Ur joking write??


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## mightypipe

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Ur joking write??


Refer to the post above...


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## rjbphd

MTDUNN said:


> Half the plumbers who say they don't use them here are probably lying to avoid a beat down. Mob mentality runs strong here


Well.. I one havnt use one yet..


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

mightypipe said:


> Refer to the post above...


A man. My Asian buddy was being honest


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

I haven't ether. Not allowed to have them on the truck I wouldn't use them if I was allowed


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## mightypipe

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I haven't ether. Not allowed to have them on the truck I wouldn't use them if I was allowed


Aren't you still an apprentice?!?!

What the hell do you know?


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## Letterrip

Cat_Ass_Trophy said:


> So you're against ProPress as well, right?


I've got questions about propress' longevity for that same reason. One difference in my mind (not research) is that the propress joint doesn't give. What will that expansion and contraction do to that sharkbite O-ring over time?


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## Letterrip

If properly strapped ( and I have yet to see one of those in sharkbites) rotation shouldn't occur. If your telling me that those little SS grippers in the sharkbite will hold steady against expansion and contraction in a hw system, I'm not buying it. I've observed and heard fairly stiffly strapped pipes in attics creaking and popping as they moved. Just my opinion.


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## gear junkie

So yesterday looking through my codebook, I see their a gas approved style sharkbite for hdpe.....blows my mind.


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## jeffreyplumber

Ok kinda joking about not carrying co.pper tools and liking shark bites. I use shark bites for temp caps and other temp work. I run copper on water no shark bites. cast iron or abs for dwv


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## calgary_403

We use them at work lots. Only for when we are pressure testing our copper lines though. Easier using a shark bite than soldering on caps all the time. Also easier than soldering fips onto every line we want to test.


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## Ptturner91

Here in Ontario shark bite has now been approved for below ground, how do you feel about that?


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## love2surf927

Ptturner91 said:


> Here in Ontario shark bite has now been approved for below ground, how do you feel about that?


Is that a serious question?


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## Ptturner91

No but I love hearing people's reaction when I tell them it's approved underground


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## suzie

Brasscraft has similar shut off valves with the shark bite mentality

http://www.brasscraft.com/Products.aspx?Id=202


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## plbgbiz

Ptturner91 said:


> Here in Ontario shark bite has now been approved for below ground, how do you feel about that?


I think it is a great idea. Job security. :thumbup:


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## Hoosier Plumber

I think I'm going to buy stock in sharkbite. Either way I can make some money. :thumbup:


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## nhmaster3015

plungerboy said:


> I only carry one type of pex on my truck. I am not going to buy 10 different tools for all types of pex. When I need to transition from one pex to Another will use a shark bit. How else would you make the transition.


What would those 10 different connection types be? As far as I know, you get expansion (uponor) crimp (viega and others) and cinch ring (watts) the only expensive tool of the lot is the uponor expansion tool. If you can't afford the tools, you shouldn't be doing the work. 

Is this really what we have come down too? Licensed plumbers using freekin shark bites? Unbelievable. What happend to pride of workmanship? or is fast, cheap and easy the new trade mantra? You sink too the level of sharkbites, AAV's, CSST, flexi-supplies, plastic J hangers ect, ect and you are suddenly no better than the average handy hack buying plastic crap from Home Depot. You know why the trade is dying? Its dying because nobody wants to do anything the right way anymore. Slap in in and get paid. Of course you only get paid about 1/2 of what plumbers used to get paid (adjusting for inflation) but then again how much do you expect someone to pay for having plastic strung around the house like a spaghetti. Any high School drop out can do your job now. :thumbsup:


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## Hoosier Plumber

nhmaster3015 said:


> What would those 10 different connection types be? As far as I know, you get expansion (uponor) crimp (viega and others) and cinch ring (watts) the only expensive tool of the lot is the uponor expansion tool. If you can't afford the tools, you shouldn't be doing the work. Is this really what we have come down too? Licensed plumbers using freekin shark bites? Unbelievable. What happend to pride of workmanship? or is fast, cheap and easy the new trade mantra? You sink too the level of sharkbites, AAV's, CSST, flexi-supplies, plastic J hangers ect, ect and you are suddenly no better than the average handy hack buying plastic crap from Home Depot. You know why the trade is dying? Its dying because nobody wants to do anything the right way anymore. Slap in in and get paid. Of course you only get paid about 1/2 of what plumbers used to get paid (adjusting for inflation) but then again how much do you expect someone to pay for having plastic strung around the house like a spaghetti. Any high School drop out can do your job now. :thumbsup:


Wish I had time to argue some if these points, but suffice to say I disagree an will try to get back to it later. 

What I can say is times changes, product changes and old ways are not always feasible, practical, cost effective, or even sensible. 

Gotta go and get my half pay. Lol.


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## nhmaster3015

You have to understand the certification process and who's behind it and who is paying for the certification. Just because IAPMO, NSF, ASTM and a host of others certify the product, doesn't mean the product is necessarily a good one. Also understand the parameters for the testing. NOBODY is testing products for lifetime non-failure. These testing companies get paid by the companies that make the products. A few million in the right palms can do wonders as far as getting that stamp of approval is concerned. Remember Polybutylene? Sure you do. It was certified too. 

STOP INSTALLING CRAP! You are licensed, experienced plumbers. YOU know what crap is. Not the homeowner, not the contractor, YOU. Stop worrying that the other guy is going to take all the work. He will take some, not all. He will leave you with the customers that trust you to install quality. He will leave you with the customers that will pay a few extra bucks for quality and peace if mind.

We don't install anything that doesn't meet my approval 1st. I could care less about most 3rd party certifications.

Finally, support your local plumbing supply houses. Every trip you make to the big box store is another nail in the coffin. Eventually the local supply houses will be gone and then you will only have two choices won't you.? Orange or Blue


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## nhmaster3015

Hoosier Plumber said:


> Wish I had time to argue some if these points, but suffice to say I disagree an will try to get back to it later.
> 
> What I can say is times changes, product changes and old ways are not always feasible, practical, cost effective, or even sensible.
> 
> Gotta go and get my half pay. Lol.


Times do change and so do products but crap is still crap and WE have the power to stop it. Frankly, I don't care if you disagree. You aren't the 1st and won't be the last. There is no argument you can make that I haven't heard before.


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## Caduceus

nhmaster3015 said:


> You have to understand the certification process and who's behind it and who is paying for the certification. Just because IAPMO, NSF, ASTM and a host of others certify the product, doesn't mean the product is necessarily a good one. Also understand the parameters for the testing. NOBODY is testing products for lifetime non-failure. These testing companies get paid by the companies that make the products. A few million in the right palms can do wonders as far as getting that stamp of approval is concerned. Remember Polybutylene? Sure you do. It was certified too.
> 
> STOP INSTALLING CRAP! You are licensed, experienced plumbers. YOU know what crap is. Not the homeowner, not the contractor, YOU. Stop worrying that the other guy is going to take all the work. He will take some, not all. He will leave you with the customers that trust you to install quality. He will leave you with the customers that will pay a few extra bucks for quality and peace if mind.
> 
> We don't install anything that doesn't meet my approval 1st. I could care less about most 3rd party certifications.
> 
> Finally, support your local plumbing supply houses. Every trip you make to the big box store is another nail in the coffin. Eventually the local supply houses will be gone and then you will only have two choices won't you.? Orange or Blue


We may not always see eye to eye, but AMEN to that!:thumbsup:


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## Hoosier Plumber

nhmaster3015 said:


> You have to understand the certification process and who's behind it and who is paying for the certification. Just because IAPMO, NSF, ASTM and a host of others certify the product, doesn't mean the product is necessarily a good one. Also understand the parameters for the testing. NOBODY is testing products for lifetime non-failure. These testing companies get paid by the companies that make the products. A few million in the right palms can do wonders as far as getting that stamp of approval is concerned. Remember Polybutylene? Sure you do. It was certified too. STOP INSTALLING CRAP! You are licensed, experienced plumbers. YOU know what crap is. Not the homeowner, not the contractor, YOU. Stop worrying that the other guy is going to take all the work. He will take some, not all. He will leave you with the customers that trust you to install quality. He will leave you with the customers that will pay a few extra bucks for quality and peace if mind. We don't install anything that doesn't meet my approval 1st. I could care less about most 3rd party certifications. Finally, support your local plumbing supply houses. Every trip you make to the big box store is another nail in the coffin. Eventually the local supply houses will be gone and then you will only have two choices won't you.? Orange or Blue


I don't disagree with as much as you might think, and as it pertains to quality of product we seem to be on the same page. 

The solution you propose sounds great but it impossible to implement. PVC, Cpvc, Pex, sharkbites, etc.. Are here to stay and that is the reality most plumbers face. 

How would a plumbing shop stay competitive and get enough work to stay in business if all of there competition is using less costly products? 

There is not one plumbing shop I know of that install cast iron drains and coper water lines in residential homes.


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## lockeplumbing

Hoosier Plumber said:


> I don't disagree with as much as you might think, and as it pertains to quality of product we seem to be on the same page.
> 
> The solution you propose sounds great but it impossible to implement. PVC, Cpvc, Pex, sharkbites, etc.. Are here to stay and that is the reality most plumbers face.
> 
> How would a plumbing shop stay competitive and get enough work to stay in business if all of there competition is using less costly products?
> 
> There is not one plumbing shop I know of that install cast iron drains and coper water lines in residential homes.


Actually all we do is copper water lines and sometimes cpvc that's the only choices we give. But we don't do cast iron drains. We do all drains in PVC. We have never ever installed pex. But we push more copper than anything. And we don't use shark bites those are for homeowners that don't know what the heck they are doing.

Micah Robinson
Locke Plumbing
lockeplumbing.com 865-525-9318


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## nhmaster3015

Hoosier Plumber said:


> I don't disagree with as much as you might think, and as it pertains to quality of product we seem to be on the same page.
> 
> The solution you propose sounds great but it impossible to implement. PVC, Cpvc, Pex, sharkbites, etc.. Are here to stay and that is the reality most plumbers face.
> 
> How would a plumbing shop stay competitive and get enough work to stay in business if all of there competition is using less costly products?
> 
> There is not one plumbing shop I know of that install cast iron drains and coper water lines in residential homes.


We are the largest plumbing company in the area. We are also the most expensive. We don't install pex or AAV's, all the stuff I listed and then some. In short, we don't care about the other guy. We don't swim with the little fish in a little pond.


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## gear junkie

nhmaster3015 said:


> We are the largest plumbing company in the area. We are also the most expensive. We don't install pex or AAV's, all the stuff I listed and then some. In short, we don't care about the other guy. We don't swim with the little fish in a little pond.


How long has your shop been around?


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## Hoosier Plumber

nhmaster3015 said:


> We are the largest plumbing company in the area. We are also the most expensive. We don't install pex or AAV's, all the stuff I listed and then some. In short, we don't care about the other guy. We don't swim with the little fish in a little pond.


How long has the shop been in business? 

What area is it in? Not specific, but am curious if there is a level of protection offered through enforcement. Such as a large urban area where licensing is enforced as well as plumbing practice.

There is so much more to a company and its success than I would care to get into. 

Again, I appreciate those who help make the trade better.


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## Tommy plumber

nhmaster3015 said:


> Times do change and so do products but crap is still crap and *WE have the power to stop it. * Frankly, I don't care if you disagree. You aren't the 1st and won't be the last. There is no argument you can make that I haven't heard before.












I disagree. That ship sailed a long time ago. The ship being plumbing fixture manufacturers selling us out and big box stores on board as well. The scattered plumbing contractors nationwide couldn't do anything even if they all banded together to wage a fight. It's like shoveling sand against the tide. And we can't even get along on a plumbing forum without bickering....:laughing: So there's* NO* way we could battle the big boys.


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## Hoosier Plumber

Tommy plumber said:


> I disagree. That ship sailed a long time ago. The ship being plumbing fixture manufacturers selling us out and big box stores on board as well. The scattered plumbing contractors nationwide couldn't do anything even if they all banded together to wage a fight. It's like shoveling sand against the tide. And we can't even get along on a plumbing forum without bickering....:laughing: So there's* NO* way we could battle the big boys.


You forgot to add the supply houses that sell to anyone off the street. The internet suppliers where people buy cheaper than we buy. The hardwares that sell product, rent tools, and try to educate consumers on how to do our jobs. 

The other day I ran to a local hardware. A customer walked in carrying a breaker bar and socket he borrowed from the hardware to change out a water heater element. 

How about the governments that don't enforce their own rules, regulations and laws?


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## nhmaster3015

gear junkie said:


> How long has your shop been around?


Since 1952. New Hampshire south

Enforcement within the city is spotty at best. Statewide it is getting better. At least they tell us it is lol

Tommy, I felt the same way too but I'm not giving up yet. You guys all know that I spend my time teaching now. I like to think that I am making a difference in my own little corner but only time will tell. I also think that most plumbers don't do as much as they can to advance and protect the trades. Not just ours but all trades. I will do whatever I can, when ever an wherever to promote licensed plumbing and elevate our status. I also realize that a lot of you young guys have mouths to feed and payments to make and that alone takes up a lot of your time but try to remember the ones coming up behind you when you start thinking about retirement. I do believe that if we really wants too we could make a difference.


----------



## Redwood

Single Digit overnight lows forecast for at least a week...

Looks like I'll be using some SharkBites....:thumbup:


----------



## Caduceus

I'm not going to quote posts because this applies to too many and we know which ones.
Banding together is not impossible. In my area plumbing is governed by the county health department. They receive no public money. They are funded through license fees, plan fees and FINES. The plumbing section needed money so they made the right move. Enforce the code! Card ALL plumbers. If they see a plain white truck/van with pipe on the roof or other distinguishing marks (all of our inspectors are registered plumbers) they stop by the job and check for filed permits/plans and licenses. If non-registered plumbers are on site, they are fined. We, as registered plumbers, will also call the health dept. if we see this and I have done it myself. 
Pennsylvanian licensed contractors banded together to get a law passed requiring any company doing $500/per transaction or $5,000/per year worth of business to be registered with the state to stop handyman cash-n-dash work. It has all worked and daily shoddy craftsman-wannabes have been chased out of town, fined or imprisoned.
Local plumbing organizations like the Associated Master Plumbers of Allegheny County are in communication with supply houses to enforce the 'wholesale to contractors only' laws and provide lists and cards of plumbers for the public.
I have talked to several plumbers who have underbid the trade just to have work and now they charge rates that drive the market and stick to it. They have all started to see profits, now, instead of barely making the bills.
There will always be a percent of the market that will get past us, but by uniting we can make a difference regardless of handymen and DIYers. They will always be there, but around here the trade has greatly improved and continues to grow.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Thank you. See guys, we can make a difference. It will not change overnight and it takes time. I have been asked how to justify paying more at the supply house than Home Depot or lowes. I guess the justification is the protection of the trade and yes sometimes it's going to hurt the wallet a bit but for me, it's worth the extra. I am pretty sure that there isn't a conspiracy by the big box stores to put plumbers and local supply houses out of business, it's just collateral damage they do on their quest for profit. I made a decision 20 plus years ago to differentiate my company from everyone else. I can not compete with the mini-van crowd offering cheap prices and cheaper materials and I don't want too. So rather than play in that mud hole I decided to concentrate on excellence in service and product. So we lost a whole lot of customers at first but most of those customers were the ones that took forever to pay and were a pain in the backside. It took about a year and a half for the word to spread and now we are the biggest and I hope, the best in the area and we never compromise. We will not install an AAV anywhere. No shark bits, pro-press, csst etc. As for the question about water conditions and copper, here's the answer. Sell conditioning and filtration. Cure the problem and sell product.


----------



## Caduceus

When I ran service the bread and butter of my weekend work was DIY projects gone wrong. Many local plumbers will agree. Big box stores will always make it seem so easy to make a buck, but it's not easy and I would let a customer know this when I arrive and see the mess they've made. I wasn't rude. As a matter of fact I was sympathetic that they got into the mess and explained how trade work is better as I made the repair. Communicating with the customer and public relations is the next step for us. The reason why most people try to DIY is they think plumbers are expensive, but most importantly they don't TRUST us. If we gain their trust, they will call...regardless of cost. And remember, it's not the high-end big money demographic that needs us most and spends the most money. It's the middle class who don't really want to do the work because they already work hard. If they trust you, they will call you and pay you. I don't fear DIYers because they are my best customer. They will sit there and watch you work and realize that it takes talent and skill to make it look easy.
It's funny how they feel duped when they say "It looked so easy on TV" or "The video/book didn't explain that." and that's your opportunity to casually explain what your trade is. Show them more than a butt crack and show them you care and know their money is valuable and don't waste it on big box stores or handymen and believe me, they will call you back. I have experienced this and it becomes so easy it will blow your mind. That's what I look for in service. Mechanic, restaurant, florist...it doesn't matter. People want a personable and trustworthy human to feel comfortable with in their home.
You may have heard of the 'Family Plumber'. "My dad always called Bob, but he retired and he was our family plumber for years." 
Why can't you be somebody's 'Family Plumber'?
I think you can.


----------



## plbgbiz

Tommy plumber said:


> I disagree. That ship sailed a long time ago. The ship being plumbing fixture manufacturers selling us out and big box stores on board as well. The scattered plumbing contractors nationwide couldn't do anything even if they all banded together to wage a fight. It's like shoveling sand against the tide. And we can't even get along on a plumbing forum without bickering....:laughing: So there's* NO* way we could battle the big boys.


I agree 100%.

In the late 80's/early 90's Herb Kohler admitted in a Contractor Magazine article that residential plumbing was going to become an "install only" industry. Why? Because plumbers were not and cannot even scratch the surface of the retail demand.

That toothpaste will never return to its archaic tube. No matter how many plumbers complain about it. It is a joke to think that even collectively, service plumbers can compete with the nearly 100 billion dollar sales machine that is Home Depot.


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## nhmaster3015

So turn your license in and get out of the business.


----------



## texplum0801

There's nothing wrong with shark bites. They are approved and ive installed many of them permanently. And I've also never went back one I've installed. Years passed. And if there are some that have leaked ( I Dout ) it's been long after my warranty was out and that's what makes this little plumbing world go round It's called job security.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Caduceus said:


> When I ran service the bread and butter of my weekend work was DIY projects gone wrong. Many local plumbers will agree. Big box stores will always make it seem so easy to make a buck, but it's not easy and I would let a customer know this when I arrive and see the mess they've made. I wasn't rude. As a matter of fact I was sympathetic that they got into the mess and explained how trade work is better as I made the repair. Communicating with the customer and public relations is the next step for us. The reason why most people try to DIY is they think plumbers are expensive, but most importantly they don't TRUST us. If we gain their trust, they will call...regardless of cost. And remember, it's not the high-end big money demographic that needs us most and spends the most money. It's the middle class who don't really want to do the work because they already work hard. If they trust you, they will call you and pay you. I don't fear DIYers because they are my best customer. They will sit there and watch you work and realize that it takes talent and skill to make it look easy.
> It's funny how they feel duped when they say "It looked so easy on TV" or "The video/book didn't explain that." and that's your opportunity to casually explain what your trade is. Show them more than a butt crack and show them you care and know their money is valuable and don't waste it on big box stores or handymen and believe me, they will call you back. I have experienced this and it becomes so easy it will blow your mind. That's what I look for in service. Mechanic, restaurant, florist...it doesn't matter. People want a personable and trustworthy human to feel comfortable with in their home.
> You may have heard of the 'Family Plumber'. "My dad always called Bob, but he retired and he was our family plumber for years."
> Why can't you be somebody's 'Family Plumber'?
> I think you can.


I buy NOTHING from Home Depot or Lowes. Wal mart either for that matter. My business is successful and profitable and I only ever buy from plumbing supply houses and distributors. For that matter who has the time to wander around Home Depot with a stupid shopping cart and then go through the check out line yadda yadda, I have my stuff delivered to the shop or the job site. I and my employees don't have time to go a shopping. Time is money and while I pay a bit more for some things at the supply house I more than make up for it in time and convenience. Buying from big box stores is just plain bad business practice.


----------



## nhmaster3015

texplum0801 said:


> There's nothing wrong with shark bites. They are approved and ive installed many of them permanently. And I've also never went back one I've installed. Years passed. And if there are some that have leaked ( I Dout ) it's been long after my warranty was out and that's what makes this little plumbing world go round It's called job security.


Why am I not surprised :laughing:

If you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem :blink:

Or you can just throw the towel in


----------



## plbgbiz

nhmaster3015 said:


> So turn your license in and get out of the business.


Why would I do that? There is success, pride, and money in operating a plumbing service company. I just don't see the point in lying to myself with delusions of competing with a multi-billion dollar giant for penny percentage points in retail sales markup.


----------



## Caduceus

plbgbiz said:


> I agree 100%.
> 
> In the late 80's/early 90's Herb Kohler admitted in a Contractor Magazine article that residential plumbing was going to become an "install only" industry. Why? Because plumbers were not and cannot even scratch the surface of the retail demand.
> 
> That toothpaste will never return to its archaic tube. No matter how many plumbers complain about it. It is a joke to think that even collectively, service plumbers can compete with the nearly 100 billion dollar sales machine that is Home Depot.


The point is to not lay down and resign ourselves to having lost the battle. It's actually not that hard of a battle. Many billion dollar industries have seen tremendous hits with the change of tides over the decades. The 'human factor' will always exist. Complacency of the large companies will eventually hurt them. Cable installers still come to your home, mechanics still need to diagnose and fix cars, builders need to build structures, cleaning people still come to homes and clean. And these businesses are growing.
These were the type of actions along with thousands of others that were expected to become obsolete. Heck, we should be flying in cars by now if we believed everything corporations told us in the past.
The truth is, technology makes people lazy and expect instant gratification. Fast, effortless, easy and at the touch of a button.
I think there will continue to be ab increase in the service trades because too much focus on advancement is on technology and easy living.
They will need somebody to plunge the toilet while they watch reruns of Breaking Bad on their iPad 10 tablets.


----------



## Caduceus

I see the next generation of home owners every day at work and they don't do plumbing.


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## nhmaster3015

plbgbiz said:


> Why would I do that? There is success, pride, and money in operating a plumbing service company. I just don't see the point in lying to myself with delusions of competing with a multi-billion dollar giant for penny percentage points in retail sales markup.


Go not gentle into that good night. Rage, rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Tilt at windmills. Good for the sole.

The easiest thing to do is nothing at all.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Caduceus said:


> I see the next generation of home owners every day at work and they don't do plumbing.


Christ, they don't seem to do anything other than twiddle their thumbs on their smart phones. 10 more years and the phones will be smarter than them :laughing:

At the bottom of my screen Home Depot is selling Fluid Master fill valves for $ 11.98. I pay $ 8.35 at the supply house


----------



## plbgbiz

Caduceus said:


> The point is to not lay down and resign ourselves to having lost the battle....


Plumbing businesses are not losing this battle. They were never in it to begin with. To think they were is to not have an understanding of how the retail market works or an appreciation for its immense size.


----------



## plbgbiz

nhmaster3015 said:


> Go not gentle into that good night. Rage, rage, rage against the dying of the light.
> 
> Tilt at windmills. Good for the sole.
> 
> The easiest thing to do is nothing at all.


I shall not spend myself raging against illusive shadows. For without fail a bit of patience and the morning light of common sense will banish them from the earth on my behalf.


----------



## Caduceus

plbgbiz said:


> Plumbing businesses are not losing this battle. They were never in it to begin with. To think they were is to not have an understanding of how the retail market works or an appreciation for its immense size.


I'm not talking about competing with the retail market as far as gross sales, net profits, etc. You misunderstood my point. The competition is for services provided to the public in relation to what retail sellers promise.
They promise cheap and easy installation to move their products, but do not consider that their sales format is based on doing it yourself and if people slowly fade from the desire to do it themselves and can pay somebody else to do it, they will. Then they lose their sales base.
I never implied the battle was directly against retail. That would be ridiculous.
I don't understand why your focus would even be on that. We plumbers compete against the IDEA that we are not needed because of the propaganda produced by the big box home repair industry. I think that I have already stated that DIYers and their frustration with the home improvement industry is growing, in my experience. 
And if you question my ability to appreciate the immense size of the retail industry, I can provide a list of some of the most powerful retailers of our century that disappeared over night. Then you may learn to appreciate how easily the mighty can fall.


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## wyrickmech

plbgbiz said:


> Plumbing businesses are not losing this battle. They were never in it to begin with. To think they were is to not have an understanding of how the retail market works or an appreciation for its immense size.


 as I see it Home Depot is a tool for massive profits. All you have todo is sit back and wait. Had a client that thought he had top quality faucets. A year after he moved in to his new home I am in there changing all of them to top quality faucets that they didn't care what I charged. You might have to live with the fact that they are here to stay but it can be a marketing tool.


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## Caduceus

plbgbiz said:


> Plumbing businesses are not losing this battle. They were never in it to begin with. To think they were is to not have an understanding of how the retail market works or an appreciation for its immense size.


Now don't get me wrong. Where one retailer vanishes another will appear. But it always takes longer each time for one to make up for its predecessor.
When my brother in-law bought three HD Kohler toilet kits that include the whole bowl, tank, bolts and wax ring in it, I installed it. Testing them, two of the three had defects in the casting of the china and leaked. I took the two back and of the two replacements, one had the same defect. Return it and finally had the job done. So 3 out of 6 of these "made exclusively for Home Depot" toilets were molded defectively. When he had his entire kitchen and dining room done the following year he bought from small local retailers for all materials and appliances and swore off H.D. 
Lowe's is just as fallible when they buy bulk, low QA materials for the public and it will catch up with them. The skilled tradesmen can do their part, too by recommending higher quality parts from their own retailers to have happier customers and generate more business to expand our numbers.


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## gear junkie

What works for one business may not work for other businesses in the same trade. How does one get business when starting out. Quality is great, customer service is even better but sometimes you also have to see if there's a comparable product out there that allows you to do the same job faster for less. This is not a slam NH so please don't take it as such but being in business since 1952....wow. By this point you guys have built the customer base that's probably enormous and your shop sounds like it's in a niche market......customers who want old school work done and are willing to pay that price that comes with it. I think it's a safe bet to say almost everyone would love to be in those shoes. 

But unfortunantly we're not and need to figure out how to get a foothold in the market. Lost a job today because I wanted to run gas and was underbid by another guy running csst. I posted the details in phac because I'm discussing price but I didn't compromise and change my bid for csst so I lost the job. That's money to feed my family. What then? Turns out these last few months have been great and I'm really doing well so no big deal. But there have been months when I fell short.....what if I said to heck with it and bid the job in a cheaper material to be competitive? I'm not saying that you need to give up all your morals but there come a point when you have to do right for everyone and something has to give a little.

Lastly said this before and I'll say again.....difficulty of installation doesn't equate quality of product. Also opened up to many walls and seen some "old school" copper and cast that looked like straight crap. I've also seen cpvc installed that looked great. A real tradesman can take a crappy product and make it look good and a hack can take the best product and make it look like crap. If you want to preserve the plumbing trade, then imo craftsmanship and installation should be the focal point.....not material.


----------



## MTDUNN

plbgbiz said:


> Plumbing businesses are not losing this battle. They were never in it to begin with. To think they were is to not have an understanding of how the retail market works or an appreciation for its immense size.


That may be true. The mom and pop hardware stores never had a chance. They folded like a wet Kotex


----------



## wyrickmech

gear junkie said:


> What works for one business may not work for other businesses in the same trade. How does one get business when starting out. Quality is great, customer service is even better but sometimes you also have to see if there's a comparable product out there that allows you to do the same job faster for less. This is not a slam NH so please don't take it as such but being in business since 1952....wow. By this point you guys have built the customer base that's probably enormous and your shop sounds like it's in a niche market......customers who want old school work done and are willing to pay that price that comes with it. I think it's a safe bet to say almost everyone would love to be in those shoes. But unfortunantly we're not and need to figure out how to get a foothold in the market. Lost a job today because I wanted to run gas and was underbid by another guy running csst. I posted the details in phac because I'm discussing price but I didn't compromise and change my bid for csst so I lost the job. That's money to feed my family. What then? Turns out these last few months have been great and I'm really doing well so no big deal. But there have been months when I fell short.....what if I said to heck with it and bid the job in a cheaper material to be competitive? I'm not saying that you need to give up all your morals but there come a point when you have to do right for everyone and something has to give a little. Lastly said this before and I'll say again.....difficulty of installation doesn't equate quality of product. Also opened up to many walls and seen some "old school" copper and cast that looked like straight crap. I've also seen cpvc installed that looked great. A real tradesman can take a crappy product and make it look good and a hack can take the best product and make it look like crap. If you want to preserve the plumbing trade, then imo craftsmanship and installation should be the focal point.....not material.


 you have some valid points but don't forget the product you by May or May not be the best balance for profit and quality. Some builder grade faucets from HD will cost you time or worse missing parts that all eats in your pocket. The better grade supplier faucets normally are more consistent in quality and dependability so it is a well rounded product that you can build a costumer base with. Also if you by from a supply house warranty is less of an issue. Local Danze dealer gives me stems at no cost if I bought the faucet from them originally. I totally agree with you on craftsmanship you can make anything look good ,well except fiber cast. A craftsman will hone his ability into art a hack just slops it in.


----------



## plbgbiz

Caduceus said:


> ...I never implied the battle was directly against retail. That would be ridiculous. I don't understand why your focus would even be on that....


Because the comments on the box stores ALWAYS center around the widgets they sell and how plumber cannot make money on markup because HD sells products at or below our costs. 

Specifically, this was in reply to the woeful post about the Rinnai being sold for X number of dollars at Home Depot. So my point is that if plumbing businesses budgeted in their billable hour rate the honest and real amount of their costs, the material markup becomes a retail problem and not a plumbing service problem.

Imagine the freedom of not having to care what widgets cost or where they come from because you get paid the same either way. Trust me, it is truly liberating.

Plumbing service businesses do well to focus selling services. If they really want to make money selling widgets, they should open a supply house or retail store. Good luck with that.


----------



## plbgbiz

Whether the materials come from my supplier, Home Depot, Lowes, Amazon, or ebay....my net profit percentage never varies. And it sure as hell won't go down.


----------



## wyrickmech

plbgbiz said:


> Whether the materials come from my supplier, Home Depot, Lowes, Amazon, or ebay....my net profit percentage never varies. And it sure as hell won't go down.


 yes I agree actually it should probably go up for dealing with the morons that work there and say they are experts.


----------



## nhmaster3015

gear junkie said:


> What works for one business may not work for other businesses in the same trade. How does one get business when starting out. Quality is great, customer service is even better but sometimes you also have to see if there's a comparable product out there that allows you to do the same job faster for less. This is not a slam NH so please don't take it as such but being in business since 1952....wow. By this point you guys have built the customer base that's probably enormous and your shop sounds like it's in a niche market......customers who want old school work done and are willing to pay that price that comes with it. I think it's a safe bet to say almost everyone would love to be in those shoes.
> 
> But unfortunantly we're not and need to figure out how to get a foothold in the market. Lost a job today because I wanted to run gas and was underbid by another guy running csst. I posted the details in phac because I'm discussing price but I didn't compromise and change my bid for csst so I lost the job. That's money to feed my family. What then? Turns out these last few months have been great and I'm really doing well so no big deal. But there have been months when I fell short.....what if I said to heck with it and bid the job in a cheaper material to be competitive? I'm not saying that you need to give up all your morals but there come a point when you have to do right for everyone and something has to give a little.
> 
> Lastly said this before and I'll say again.....difficulty of installation doesn't equate quality of product. Also opened up to many walls and seen some "old school" copper and cast that looked like straight crap. I've also seen cpvc installed that looked great. A real tradesman can take a crappy product and make it look good and a hack can take the best product and make it look like crap. If you want to preserve the plumbing trade, then imo craftsmanship and installation should be the focal point.....not material.


Who's tag line read "I never lost a cent on a job I didn't get" :thumbsup:


----------



## nhmaster3015

wyrickmech said:


> you have some valid points but don't forget the product you by May or May not be the best balance for profit and quality. Some builder grade faucets from HD will cost you time or worse missing parts that all eats in your pocket. The better grade supplier faucets normally are more consistent in quality and dependability so it is a well rounded product that you can build a costumer base with. Also if you by from a supply house warranty is less of an issue. Local Danze dealer gives me stems at no cost if I bought the faucet from them originally. I totally agree with you on craftsmanship you can make anything look good ,well except fiber cast. A craftsman will hone his ability into art a hack just slops it in.


Here at the school, when I buy stock and materials, the school board requires 3 bids so I always include Home Depot and sometimes Lowes along with my 2 regular supply houses. I just finished up an quote request for a dozen each, SS two bowl kitchen sinks, Delta single handle faucets with spray. 12 wall hung lavs with Delta two handle faucets MPU, 12 drop in lavs, 12 urinals, 12 Sloan flush valves, 6 fiberglass tubs and 6 tub/shower valves along with copper pipe and fittings. When all is said and done Home Depots price was $ 387.00 higher than the next highest supply house so their prices are not always all that competitive. I will admit though that their PVC prices are lower but on the other hand, for the business I usually order fittings by the case and most times multiple cases and doing that at the box store just won't fly along with the man hours required to go pick it all up, check the order, bring it back to the shop, unload and stock it on the shelves. Time is money folks.


----------



## nhmaster3015

plbgbiz said:


> Because the comments on the box stores ALWAYS center around the widgets they sell and how plumber cannot make money on markup because HD sells products at or below our costs.
> 
> Specifically, this was in reply to the woeful post about the Rinnai being sold for X number of dollars at Home Depot. So my point is that if plumbing businesses budgeted in their billable hour rate the honest and real amount of their costs, the material markup becomes a retail problem and not a plumbing service problem.
> 
> Imagine the freedom of not having to care what widgets cost or where they come from because you get paid the same either way. Trust me, it is truly liberating.
> 
> Plumbing service businesses do well to focus selling services. If they really want to make money selling widgets, they should open a supply house or retail store. Good luck with that.


The plumbing service problem comes from the homeowner asking why you are charging so much for something that he saw on the shelf yesterday. The plumbing service problem comes from the handy hack that buys that product, sells and installs it for 1/3 less than you do. The plumbing service problem comes from losing customers because some idiot at home depot told them they could change out their kitchen faucet all by themselves. For the life of me I can't understand why anyone would defend what the big box stores have done to the trades and then defend the decision to let them slap us in the face here.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Caduceus said:


> The point is to not lay down and resign ourselves to having lost the battle. It's actually not that hard of a battle. Many billion dollar industries have seen tremendous hits with the change of tides over the decades. The 'human factor' will always exist. Complacency of the large companies will eventually hurt them. Cable installers still come to your home, mechanics still need to diagnose and fix cars, builders need to build structures, cleaning people still come to homes and clean. And these businesses are growing.
> These were the type of actions along with thousands of others that were expected to become obsolete. Heck, we should be flying in cars by now if we believed everything corporations told us in the past.
> The truth is, technology makes people lazy and expect instant gratification. Fast, effortless, easy and at the touch of a button.
> I think there will continue to be ab increase in the service trades because too much focus on advancement is on technology and easy living.
> They will need somebody to plunge the toilet while they watch reruns of Breaking Bad on their iPad 10 tablets.


You get my Hero of the week award. Thank you for your insight and efforts. If we all put forth the effort, things will change.


----------



## Ptturner91

nhmaster3015 said:


> Thank you. See guys, we can make a difference. It will not change overnight and it takes time. I have been asked how to justify paying more at the supply house than Home Depot or lowes. I guess the justification is the protection of the trade and yes sometimes it's going to hurt the wallet a bit but for me, it's worth the extra. I am pretty sure that there isn't a conspiracy by the big box stores to put plumbers and local supply houses out of business, it's just collateral damage they do on their quest for profit. I made a decision 20 plus years ago to differentiate my company from everyone else. I can not compete with the mini-van crowd offering cheap prices and cheaper materials and I don't want too. So rather than play in that mud hole I decided to concentrate on excellence in service and product. So we lost a whole lot of customers at first but most of those customers were the ones that took forever to pay and were a pain in the backside. It took about a year and a half for the word to spread and now we are the biggest and I hope, the best in the area and we never compromise. We will not install an AAV anywhere. No shark bits, pro-press, csst etc. As for the question about water conditions and copper, here's the answer. Sell conditioning and filtration. Cure the problem and sell product.


I understand pex and shark bites but no pro press? Why is that?


----------



## Tommy plumber

Ptturner91 said:


> I understand pex and shark bites but no pro press? Why is that?












Because he's old school...really old...he stills cuts cast iron pipe with a ballpean hammer and chisel....:laughing:


----------



## nhmaster3015

Tommy plumber said:


> Because he's old school...really old...he stills cuts cast iron pipe with a ballpean hammer and chisel....:laughing:


I have done so in the past but these days I find a 4" angle grinder with a diamond wheel takes less time.

Pro-Press = glorified shark-bite

Tool is outrageously expensive to buy and maintain
Fittings are outrageously expensive and hard to find
Running straight lengths that are straight is a pain in the azz
Tool is heavy and doesn't get into tight spaces unless you pony up for the swivel head. 

In short, although I dod get suckered into buying one a few years back, the tool sits on the shelf collecting dust most of the time. Not only don't I use it but the service tech's don't bother with it either. This time of year yuou cant leave it out in the truck, the batteries are always dead and frankly a jet swett is faster and a whole lot cheaper.


----------



## Redwood

nhmaster3015 said:


> Pro-Press = glorified shark-bite


I don't know if I'd call it a Glorified SharkBite...

I'd just call it a One-Time Use SharkBite...:whistling2:


----------



## nhmaster3015

Next thing you know someone will be saying how much they love plastic J hangers :laughing:


----------



## Tommy plumber

Redwood said:


> I don't know if I'd call it a Glorified SharkBite...
> 
> I'd just call it a *One-Time Use SharkBite.*..:whistling2:












They make those. They're called Q-tite or Tec-tite. Waaay cheaper than the Propress


----------



## Redwood

nhmaster3015 said:


> Next thing you know someone will be saying how much they love plastic J hangers :laughing:


They'd prolly be okay if you put them about a foot apart... :laughing:

I can't tell you how many times I've seen a bunch of those that have just straightened out and dropped the pipe or, snapped and dropped the pipe...

A clogged 4" line holding water isn't going to stay hanging with that crap trying to hold it up...


----------



## dclarke

I like plastic j hangers. Only on vents though.


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

Tommy plumber said:


> They make those. They're called Q-tite or Tec-tite. Waaay cheaper than the Propress


I had a few leaks with those when they first came on the market a few years ago. I got the Nibco brand at that time. I used them a couple times and then had to go back to remove them afterwards after they leaked and one fitting pulled apart. I sanded the pipe prior to pushing the fitting on and used the inside/outside reamer. They still leaked. I ended up soldering it all back together like I should have in the first place. I also didn't like the $40 price tag for a union. After a few months they took them off the market here. Shark bites have lasted though and I think they work better as far as push-to-connect systems go and you can remove them easily for reuse like I did for doing leak detection. I assume you've had good luck with them? What applications are you using them for?


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## Redwood

Tommy plumber said:


> They make those. They're called Q-tite or Tec-tite. Waaay cheaper than the Propress


I don't see much value in that product other than using them is cheaper than buying that expensive one-time sharkbite installation tool (ProPress)...

The real value of the SharkBite IMHO is that they can be removed and used again... :thumbup:

Now that comes in handy sometimes...

I've been a big fan of push connect fittings long before many here...
When I was doing industrial work these fittings were used with nylon tubing on many cnc machines for pneumatic connections...
Thousands of connections many of them moving thousands of cycles a shift often operating 3 shifts m-f and at least part of the day on Saturday.
With almost no coming loose or leaks...
The only time they leaked was usually when an operator failed to clean a slug out of the machine and it crashed, the damage often tore up quite a bit more and just a push connect... :yes:

The reliability was proven years before you got to see them...
In a very ugly environment with cutting oils, heat, metal chips, and movement...


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## Master Mark

Redwood said:


> I don't see much value in that product other than using them is cheaper than buying that expensive one-time sharkbite installation tool (ProPress)...
> 
> The real value of the SharkBite IMHO is that they can be removed and used again... :thumbup:
> 
> Now that comes in handy sometimes...
> 
> I've been a big fan of push connect fittings long before many here...
> When I was doing industrial work these fittings were used with nylon tubing on many cnc machines for pneumatic connections...
> Thousands of connections many of them moving thousands of cycles a shift often operating 3 shifts m-f and at least part of the day on Saturday.
> With almost no coming loose or leaks...
> The only time they leaked was usually when an operator failed to clean a slug out of the machine and it crashed, the damage often tore up quite a bit more and just a push connect... :yes:
> 
> The reliability was proven years before you got to see them...
> In a very ugly environment with cutting oils, heat, metal chips, and movement...


 
I 100% agree with you on this subject... the sharkbite fittings have gotten me out of some nasty situations with my skin intact.... 

on Ro units they have been useing push pull john gest fittings for literally 30 years with very few issues under kitchen sinks.....

they are here to stay wether anyone likes them or not, but I prefer to use the original sharkbite fittings over some of the copy cat brands on the market today....


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## dclarke

The way I view many of the products we have is that the world is large and other areas have used things much longer than we have in america. I'm sure shark bites have been around for quite awhile. Same with thankless water heaters. Its just relatively new to america. To say shark bites are better than another brand is like saying ford is better than Chevy because they were first. The trade is ever evolving and you can't knock new products just because they are new. If that were the case we would all be pouring lead joints, using cast tubs and threading galvanized.


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## Plumber

On my own pex-piped house, I used sharkbites to connect the new water heater and a angle stop for the new master toilet. That was 5 years ago and no problems at all.

I used a s.b. angle stop for a customer's kitchen sink and got a call from the rooter guy yelling at me for installing inferior parts. I asked him if it was leaking and it wasn't. I installed it 5 years ago, too. Naturally, it was the first and last one I did and got busted for it..:blink:

Every industry has had changes that lowered their incomes. Look at the telephone company and the cell phone. Sure, they are recovering now, but when's the last time you saw a telephone company truck in someone's home driveway?


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## newyorkcity

Plumber said:


> *On my own pex-piped house, I used sharkbites to connect the new water heater and a angle stop for the new master toilet. That was 5 years ago and no problems at all.
> *
> I used a s.b. angle stop for a customer's kitchen sink and got a call from the rooter guy yelling at me for installing inferior parts. I asked him if it was leaking and it wasn't. I installed it 5 years ago, too. Naturally, it was the first and last one I did and got busted for it..:blink:
> 
> Every industry has had changes that lowered their incomes. Look at the telephone company and the cell phone. Sure, they are recovering now, but when's the last time you saw a telephone company truck in someone's home driveway?


May I ask why you did that if you had a choice in the matter?


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## Plumber

newyorkcity said:


> May I ask why you did that if you had a choice in the matter?
> View attachment 30165


Enjoy picking on a old sick man? Babe, it do come back on ya............

To answer your question, I hardly ever install something I haven't installed at my own house. The sharkbites are on test and doing just fine. Granted, the water heater closet is well insulated and never goes below 60 degrees.

I talked to the rooter guy and he said the kitchen sink shut-offs were set waaay back in that annoying triangle set-up that was popular a while back. That's why I used the sb on the customers house.


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## gear junkie

this entire thread has me shaking my head. Not on the material but on the armchair plumbers that preach one thing on one forum or in one thread and something else entirely different on another one. Just when I thought I couldn't lose anymore respect, I somehow managed to be surprised. Oh well I got my own plumbing to do.


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## wyrickmech

I bet money if there was a leak 15min before the Super Bowl the sharkbites would be flying of the truck so they wouldn't miss the game!


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## Tommy plumber

Best Darn Sewer said:


> I had a few leaks with those when they first came on the market a few years ago. I got the Nibco brand at that time. I used them a couple times and then had to go back to remove them afterwards after they leaked and one fitting pulled apart. I sanded the pipe prior to pushing the fitting on and used the inside/outside reamer. They still leaked. I ended up soldering it all back together like I should have in the first place. I also didn't like the $40 price tag for a union. After a few months they took them off the market here. Shark bites have lasted though and I think they work better as far as push-to-connect systems go and you can remove them easily for reuse like I did for doing leak detection. *I assume you've had good luck with them? What applications are you using them for?*














Those one-time use copper Q-tites are not my first choice; they are just in case of emergency. For example: say I'm under a house fighting water, the crawl space is cramped and dark. I don't want to drag my torch and solder kit under there. So I'll use that Q-tite to get the job done quickly.

And they are nearly fool-proof so long as you de-burr and ream the copper. Not so much the reaming but the de-burring the OD. No leaks. Maybe you had a bad batch back in the day.


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## nhmaster3015

And we need foolproof because the trade seems to be spawning them by the dozen lately :laughing:


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## Redwood

newyorkcity said:


> May I ask why you did that if you had a choice in the matter?


Love the pearl... :thumbup:


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## love2surf927

gear junkie said:


> this entire thread has me shaking my head. Not on the material but on the armchair plumbers that preach one thing on one forum or in one thread and something else entirely different on another one. Just when I thought I couldn't lose anymore respect, I somehow managed to be surprised. Oh well I got my own plumbing to do.


???


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## sparky

wyrickmech said:


> Iapmo is minimum standards. Every pipe has its place the fact is sch 40 is stronger and does not have as many problems as foam core.


foam core is more crush resistant than sch 40 is


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## sparky

nhmaster3015 said:


> What would those 10 different connection types be? As far as I know, you get expansion (uponor) crimp (viega and others) and cinch ring (watts) the only expensive tool of the lot is the uponor expansion tool. If you can't afford the tools, you shouldn't be doing the work.
> 
> Is this really what we have come down too? Licensed plumbers using freekin shark bites? Unbelievable. What happend to pride of workmanship? or is fast, cheap and easy the new trade mantra? You sink too the level of sharkbites, AAV's, CSST, flexi-supplies, plastic J hangers ect, ect and you are suddenly no better than the average handy hack buying plastic crap from Home Depot. You know why the trade is dying? Its dying because nobody wants to do anything the right way anymore. Slap in in and get paid. Of course you only get paid about 1/2 of what plumbers used to get paid (adjusting for inflation) but then again how much do you expect someone to pay for having plastic strung around the house like a spaghetti. Any high School drop out can do your job now. :thumbsup:


nowadays people don't want to pay for the quality work,and they don't give a crap bout the quality long as it works and don't leak,if you want to make any profit at all you have to get in and get out asap,if it takes an hour to make a job look good or 10minutes to do the same thing but not quite as craftmansship as it should be,i will do the 10minuterer everytime.if it is in a crawlspace or where it wont be seen


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## lockeplumbing

sparky said:


> nowadays people don't want to pay for the quality work,and they don't give a crap bout the quality long as it works and don't leak,if you want to make any profit at all you have to get in and get out asap,if it takes an hour to make a job look good or 10minutes to do the same thing but not quite as craftmansship as it should be,i will do the 10minuterer everytime.if it is in a crawlspace or where it wont be seen


Oh yeah. That is some quality plumbing. Where'd you learn the trade? A cracker jack box? That's the type of plumber people do not need. "Let's just make it work and not do quality work because no one will see it anyway". Don't see how you live with yourself. It's not about screwing people and making money.

Micah Robinson
Locke Plumbing
lockeplumbing.com 865-525-9318


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## love2surf927

sparky said:


> nowadays people don't want to pay for the quality work,and they don't give a crap bout the quality long as it works and don't leak,if you want to make any profit at all you have to get in and get out asap,if it takes an hour to make a job look good or 10minutes to do the same thing but not quite as craftmansship as it should be,i will do the 10minuterer everytime.if it is in a crawlspace or where it wont be seen


the members here request that you do an intro telling us about your experience in the PLUMBING trade, "sparky" prove to us you're not another troll. Oh and by the way kudos for taking pride in your work.


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## plbgbiz

sparky said:


> nowadays...


PZ is a site for Plumbing Professionals Only. You are welcome to view the site and use the information available to you. Please refrain from posting until you have established that you are active in the trade. 

Start here>>> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/ 


Thanks.


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## sparky

lockeplumbing said:


> Oh yeah. That is some quality plumbing. Where'd you learn the trade? A cracker jack box? That's the type of plumber people do not need. "Let's just make it work and not do quality wor
> 
> Micah Robinson
> Locke Plumbing
> lockeplumbing.com 865-525-9318


whos to say you are not ripping them off by taking so much longer to get everything just soso and running up unneeded time on their bill????I can do the same thing and not take near as long and get it done and be gone,oh here in ky we have the toughest and strictest plumbing code anywhere in the united states,none of that nonsense boca or universal code nonsense.you don't do it right here you don't get a green sticker


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## Best Darn Sewer

Please don't anyone take the bait... We don't need 20 more pages of crap.


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## PLUMB TIME

^^^^^:thumbup:


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## rick6705

I have run across times fixing frozen pipes where I found having some of these fittings came in handy to temporarily fix as to test the integrity of the whole plumbing system before actually permanently repairing pipe with proper fittings. cpvc is tricky stuff when it gets damaged from freezing and is a good example where a few shark bites come in handy. Once I find have no leaks in walls etc. I simply repair the piping with proper fittings and save my shark bite fittings for the next trouble shooting saving me and the customer allot of time. Very handy but I dont believe a rubber seal is a permanent fix in a concealed area for sure or even where you can easily get to the fitting. I have used dresser couplings for this purpose in earlier years but find the shark bites very easy for temporary fix. Would anybody really use Sharkbite fittings for a whole job?


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## plbgbiz

rick6705 said:


> ....Would anybody really use Sharkbite fittings for a whole job?


Apparently so. :laughing:


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## rjbphd

plbgbiz said:


> Apparently so. :laughing:


Job done with a tape measure...


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## plbgbiz

rjbphd said:


> Job done with a tape measure...


I think a folded (aka kinked) tape measure.


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## Best Darn Sewer

plbgbiz said:


> Apparently so. :laughing:


Looks legit to me. I've piped in a wash station with them at our shop when I was plumbing in Montana. I didn't have any pex tools at the time. I made it straight and it worked fine but I wouldn't do it for a paying customer.


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## wyrickmech

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Looks legit to me. I've piped in a wash station at our shop when I was plumbing in Montana. I didn't have any pex tools at the time. I maiden it straight and it worked fine but I wouldn't do it for a paying customer.


had a water company give me fifteen minuets to install a RP on a tanning machine or they were shutting the building off. Sharkbites saved the day there.


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## Best Darn Sewer

wyrickmech said:


> had a water company give me fifteen minuets to install a RP on a tanning machine or they were shutting the building off. Sharkbites saved the day there.


Yeah, they have their place.


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## Keefer w

plbgbiz said:


> Apparently so. :laughing:


Can we talk about the back graded pipe off of the stack?


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## DSP

The bottom line is, nothing is made to last and that's what keeps us in business. For instance, pro press fitting will eventually fail do to the rubber gasket inside. $$$


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## Gargalaxy

DSP said:


> The bottom line is, nothing is made to last and that's what keeps us in business. For instance, pro press fitting will eventually fail do to the rubber gasket inside. $$$


Bottom line is, you was told that introduction is requested. Can you do that?


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## plumbdrum

sparky said:


> whos to say you are not ripping them off by taking so much longer to get everything just soso and running up unneeded time on their bill????I can do the same thing and not take near as long and get it done and be gone,oh here in ky we have the toughest and strictest plumbing code anywhere in the united states,none of that nonsense boca or universal code nonsense.you don't do it right here you don't get a green sticker


I beg to differ about strict plumbing codes.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## stillaround

Them 1.25" and 1.5" buggars are not cheap.....


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## smartbrad

Wow plumbing biz that's a surprisingly good mech room for someone who didn't know what they were doing. There must of been a going outta business sale at the shark bite store.


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## jeffreyplumber

Kind of a late comment on that tankless installation but... I would never use all those shark bites even I had buckets of them. I was looking at it though and thinking thats a lot of work there and not one i would have liked kind of hard to make it clean


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## mtfallsmikey

I'm real late for this one... I used almost all Sharkbites on PEX on my wood boiler/ hydrocoil install 6 yrs. ago, no leaks


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## SchmitzPlumbing

now they are really trying to get us to buy them. at ferguson, buy $50 worth and get a punch on your card. 10 punches and you can win a harley. i have no punches and i dont think that i will.


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## rjbphd

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> now they are really trying to get us to buy them. at ferguson, buy $50 worth and get a punch on your card. 10 punches and you can win a harley. i have no punches and i dont think that i will.


Why not just punch out the guys that been using SB??


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## Da Bad Guy

sparky said:


> nowadays people don't want to pay for the quality work,and they don't give a crap bout the quality long as it works and don't leak,if you want to make any profit at all you have to get in and get out asap,if it takes an hour to make a job look good or 10minutes to do the same thing but not quite as craftmansship as it should be,i will do the 10minuterer everytime.if it is in a crawlspace or where it wont be seen


A man's character is defined by the things he does when no one is looking.......:whistling2:


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## Redwood

Da Bad Guy said:


> A man's character is defined by the things he does when no one is looking.......:whistling2:


I'll use a SharkBite right in front of you and not give a rats azz what you think...:yes:

How's that for character? :laughing:

They make my job easier and faster...
So I'll use em...
Maybe someday you'll learn...

But right now you are too busy standing on a soap box preaching...


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## Da Bad Guy

Redwood said:


> I'll use a SharkBite right in front of you and not give a rats azz what you think...:yes:
> 
> How's that for character? :laughing:
> 
> They make my job easier and faster...
> So I'll use em...
> Maybe someday you'll learn...
> 
> But right now you are too busy standing on a soap box preaching...


Wow, friendly little fella, aren't you? And in no way am i qualified to be a preacher, by the way. What exactly would you like for me to learn? You do what makes you fast and easy and I'll do what makes me sleep at night. It's all personal preference, bro. Don't take it personal. I cant feel good charging someone for something that they themselves could have accomplished, that's all. 
Have I used them? Of coarse I have. It has to be for a very good reason, not just because I'm too lazy to want to drag my torch under the house. I charge a little more to use them because it takes me longer to go get them when I need them because I have more important items on my truck that I dont have room for an over-priced, temporary repair-in-a-bag.
I'm not here to change your opinion or your habits because, I care very little about when, how, or where you choose to use them. Sorry for butting in to YOUR conversation. I'll make sure in the future that I dont give my opinion on anything that might be considered an insult to you, ok?


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## plumberkc

mtfallsmikey said:


> I'm real late for this one... I used almost all Sharkbites on PEX on my wood boiler/


Why??


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## Redwood

Da Bad Guy said:


> Wow, friendly little fella, aren't you? And in no way am i qualified to be a preacher, by the way. What exactly would you like for me to learn? You do what makes you fast and easy and I'll do what makes me sleep at night. It's all personal preference, bro. Don't take it personal. I cant feel good charging someone for something that they themselves could have accomplished, that's all.
> Have I used them? Of coarse I have. It has to be for a very good reason, not just because I'm too lazy to want to drag my torch under the house. I charge a little more to use them because it takes me longer to go get them when I need them because I have more important items on my truck that I dont have room for an over-priced, temporary repair-in-a-bag.
> I'm not here to change your opinion or your habits because, I care very little about when, how, or where you choose to use them. Sorry for butting in to YOUR conversation. I'll make sure in the future that I dont give my opinion on anything that might be considered an insult to you, ok?


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Oh Okay....:thumbup:


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## mtfallsmikey

plumberkc said:


> Why??


Why not? Near boiler piping was done in black, rest was PEX, a lot was done underground, used insulated Uponor pipe. Had one fitting that leaked (my fault). I've dismounted/remounted them, no leaks. For those that fault them, allow me to geez for a moment and harken back to the times when PVC/ABS DWV pipe/fittings first hit the market, my Dad and the other Dead Men were appalled too. And the one plumbing inspector who didn't want to see any Fernco's. Where would we be without them now?


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## Redwood

Da Bad Guy said:


> A buncha shiot :laughing:


Yep... Some products are so bad they should never be used anywhere on a matter of principle...:laughing::blink::no:

I use a crapload of Sharkbites when I get a home that has frozen up...

I bypass all leaks with Sharkbites and washing machine hoses until the system holds pressure without leaks..

Then I drain down the system one time to fix all the leaks at once reclaiming my Sharkbites for the next one...

Have fun on the soapbox and preach on...:thumbup:
I'm sure that you are the greatest plumber that ever lived and have no need to learn anything from anyone here...

I'm humbled in your presence...


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## Gargalaxy

Something like this? What a hack....


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## rjbphd

Gargalaxy said:


> Something like this? What a hack....


Yea, that catch pan drain really doing the job


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## mytxplumber

*Plumbers buying shark bites Reply to Thread*

I use shark bites as test equipment when checking a manifold that has to be rerouted. There are times someone has placed a water line in a beam and it needs to be rerouted. We test everything first and then reroute the lines. Shark bites have a place for testing and some jobs. Do I like them, not really but they have their place in certain cases. Got to go look at a lining job... Good luck guys..


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## Plumbtastic1

Gargalaxy said:


> Something like this? What a hack....
> 
> View attachment 32937


Nice. They bought the water heater and the shark bites at HD. What a piece of crappola (Italian for doodoo)


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## plumberkc

Gargalaxy said:


> Something like this? What a hack....


I wish I could be around when that expansion tank fills up...


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## infomr

For my first pex ..


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## Redwood

infomr said:


> What's nice about pex is the overall lower chance of leak, as there are way less fittings and joints in a proper install that uses a main manifold. If I was to replumb from scratch that's what I'd do, just have two manifolds, one for hot and one for cold, and each "device" would have it's own individual run.


Homerun would be my last choice of a method for PEX installation...


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## SewerRatz

Redwood said:


> Homerun would be my last choice of a method for PEX installation...


Why is that? I never installed or used pex. What I have been told by others in the past the homerun system was the best and only way pex should be installed.


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## plbgbiz

infomr said:


> For my first ...


See ya later India spammer.


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## Gargalaxy

In a homerun you use less fittings and more pipe (tubing). 
In a trunk and branch less tubing and more connections.
Personally I don't do to much pex but when I do, I used trunk and branch.


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## Redwood

SewerRatz said:


> Why is that? I never installed or used pex. What I have been told by others in the past the homerun system was the best and only way pex should be installed.


I would go with a trunk & branch system with properly sized lines, in a larger home I might use a mini-manifold at a bathroom group. Recirculation loops can be run from the end of the line or from remote mini-manifolds.

Other than massive amounts of spaghetti running from the central manifold to all of the points of use, and having to wait at each fixture for the hot water to arrive because you can't recirculate...:whistling2: Well homerun is fine... :laughing:


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## SewerRatz

I'll stick to my galvanized piping... all this new fangled stuff just takes all the skill out of the trade.


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