# What is happening to the old reliable manufacturers



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

I am starting to get disturbed by the amount of problems I am having with products that were always reliable. To name a few.

1. Woodford frostfree faucets. Maybe its just our shop, but we have been having some continuing problems. So much so, that our old school never wants to change boss, has decided to stop putting them in.

2. American Standard: Problems with the Cadet III toilet.

etc....


Put a Legend frostfree in today, and I'll be damned if the anti-siphon didn't leak and needed to be replaced.

Oh well, just thought I would throw that out to see if anyone else is having similar issues.
I know Master Mark has had problems with Bradford White and the new Icon Valve.


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## markb (Jun 11, 2009)

Indie said:


> I am starting to get disturbed by the amount of problems I am having with products that were always reliable. To name a few.
> 
> 1. Woodford frostfree faucets. Maybe its just our shop, but we have been having some continuing problems. So much so, that our old school never wants to change boss, has decided to stop putting them in.
> 
> ...


Just removed two brand new AS Cadet III. Poor poor flush. Also recommended Cadet III to a very good friend of mine. I highly recommended it. Crossing my fingers for it to work properly. 

Also having problems with Vortens elongated toilets. 

And ALL Proflo products. :laughing:


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I have even had problems with Sloan Flushometers. Some of the threads weren't even cut into the tailpiece nuts, or the VB threads didn't have a starter groove.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I installed a chepo toilet today...think it was called "aquasource".....I must say it was a very good flusher and has a large water spot. Heavy grade A china. large flapper. I used wolverine brass tank bolts and replaced the ballcock with a fluidmaster.
Owner supplied the toilet I have no idea how much it cost but I think it came from homie or lowes. It was a toilet complete in one box with horned wax seal and seat ready to rock:thumbsup: I'm saving the horned waxed seals for rockstarplumber....he loves um.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Damn, I just bought about a 100 of the Woodford FF outside faucets. I have only put in about 10 so far without any problems yet. I was using Mansfield Premier and those are now crap, hence the switch. 

I have put in atleast 50 Cadet 3's over the last few years without a problem yet.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

We have seen lots of problems with builder grade American Standard toilets. We stop using them. We only install Toto and Mansfield. My biggest gripe would have to be with Watts ball valves are far as I'm concerned they are junk. Now that I mentioned it I can't think of anything Watts manufactures that I like


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I still use woodford. Buy the better stuff. Not the cheap ass plastic woodford shtuff.

I switched to Zurn china and flushometers years ago. Not one complaint.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

Read the back, made in Tiawan


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Someone has to support the Taiwanese people.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Toto makes great china, the best. I remember a few years ago hartsfield airport changed out all the zurn china and swapped it with Toto. A good friend of mine works for the airport and helped change out all the zurn to Toto fixtures. They also changed out the zurn faucets and flush valves. Zurn floor drains are good, but i like the Sioux Chief better now. 

Watts makes good stuff, i def like there 1/4 turn stops. Ive never had a problem with there ball valves either.


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## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

I am just starting to get calls to fix tank type power assisted flush(sloan) toilets. ( Briggs gerber,am standard etc with sloan power flush in tank)The first one was no water getting to bowl,I was lucky.Some customer had turned off water at supply.LOL Next time it was flushing continusly .I had to admit they came out after I kept up and I sent the call to a friend .He was lost as I was and passed it on too .The fellow that solved te problem just replaced the tank .They told me that the sloan rep had tried to explain it and made it look simple..I guess SOME of us older plumbers in al are hard to teach(grin) ,some things .In my younger days I would have bought one to practice on and figured them out ,but not getting enough of those calls to worry about these days (Id rather be fishing)


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## ranman (Jan 24, 2010)

I has 10 Sloan hp flush valves leak at the o ring where it went into the valve 

pain in the azz


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

nine times out of ten all you need to do is change the cartridge on the sloan flushmate tanks.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Indie said:


> I am starting to get disturbed by the amount of problems I am having with products that were always reliable. To name a few.
> 
> 1. Woodford frostfree faucets. Maybe its just our shop, but we have been having some continuing problems. So much so, that our old school never wants to change boss, has decided to stop putting them in.
> 
> ...


The only trouble i have had with the woodfords was when they started having the plastic handles made in china and the sun would make them brittle and break in less than a year. they went to a painted cast handle and haven't had a problem since. What kind of problems have you guys had?


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## LEAD INGOT (Jul 15, 2009)

Just had a customer supplied Sterling shower unit today. One of the 36" square showers with the doors that close into each other at the corner. Got the base set in mortar, got the valve and tub walls up. Went to put in the door and I'll be damned if the upper and lower tracks were for a 32". Everything else, base, wall kit, doors, all for 36". It was ordered from the factory, no possibility of tampering. I always feel like the new guy in prison when it says Kohler on the box.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Cash Acme Thermal Expansion Tanks


2 in the past month.


I was told that A.O. Smith was the product mfg. that was providing those tanks for them at one point. 

I'm at least getting replacement tanks. New ones I'm getting have stainless steel threads.

Having some issue with dielectric unions where even tightening down hard along with tape and dope, still leaking.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Zoeller M53 sump pumps. 

Had several switch problems as of late.


What's the problem with the Vortens toilets?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Its the way of the world .... pay more get less

It seem like it is all down hill from here on in.

Manufacturers that I supported are putting out products with no quality control anymore

Watts regulators
NTI boilers
American standard toilets
AO smith tanks
mirolin tubs
myers pumps
wirsbo
black fittings
majestic fireplaces
continentail fireplaces
vermount casting BBQ

Always something... parts missing ...broken on recieving...poor packaging. defective parts


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

RealLivePlumber said:


> *Zoeller M53 sump pumps.*
> 
> Had several switch problems as of late.
> 
> ...


 

I use the N53's with external switch. Good for 290,000 revolutions and the pump will now never need replacement, only the switch.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*Thats NOTHING*

*Delta has gone to hell in a hand basket...*

If the customer wants me to install the junk from
Lowes that says Delta on the box, I make them sign a disclaimor.....

Woodfords are still the best here for hose bibs....


Has anyone had troubles with the ICON valve on the Bradford White heaters?? 

they are beginning to give me a rash in the worst spot.... my wallet...


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> *Delta has gone to hell in a hand basket...*
> 
> If the customer wants me to install the junk from
> Lowes that says Delta on the box, I make them sign a disclaimor.....
> ...


What troubles are you specifically having with Icon valve? How did you correct it?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*I have switched to Lochinvar*



Don The Plumber said:


> What troubles are you specifically having with Icon valve? How did you correct it?


My salesman has told me that a monkey should be able to light the icon valve,

This monkey had had 4 in the last month that have fought me and so I keep a complete change out kit in my truck and I take it back and let them figure out what is wrong with the damn thing,,.I also give them a labor bill for $50 bucks...and I get a new complete change out kit 
... 
when it takes more time to light the stupid thing
than install it , that starts to bother me...

so I have gone to the Lochinvar heater which Bradford White makes and it comes WITHOUT that Icon valve on it... that has pretty much fixed my problems with the ICON valve..


usually if you just take the wires off the heat sensor on the side of the unit and put them back on nice and firm, then rap the re-set botton with a screwdriver handle once or twice it will do the trick....
:laughing::laughing: If that dont do it, you might as well save yourself a lot of time and simply change it all out


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I remember a while back, I posted , on this site, some concerns with the Icon valve. I recieved a pm from someone at Bradford, asking me to contact them to discuss. I did, and was never afforded the courtesy of a response. :whistling2:


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## markb (Jun 11, 2009)

RealLivePlumber said:


> What's the problem with the Vortens toilets?


Vienna ELX elongated. Poor flush. Lots of gurgling after the flush. Seems as though the flapper does not allow enough water to enter the bowl for a complete flush. We chose them for a five stories building and all 25 toilets had a problem. 

I had to make the holes on the flapper smaller to allow for the entire tank to empty for a proper flush. (I suspect that they now flush with more than 6LPF, but at least this way the contractor would not bite out heads off).

Also have a "gurgling" problem with some Toto one-piece toilets. I believe they are the cheaper ones.


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## SPH (Nov 4, 2008)

Like everyone else we had problems with John Wood HWT's and the pilot assemby, won't ever go back to them

AO Smith Commercial water heaters
Price Pfister (not that it was ever any good)

Products that have been really good:

Watts, Toto, Bradford White(im interested to see if the ICON valve is a problem though)


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## dahlman (Mar 1, 2009)

RealLivePlumber said:


> I remember a while back, I posted , on this site, some concerns with the Icon valve. I recieved a pm from someone at Bradford, asking me to contact them to discuss. I did, and was never afforded the courtesy of a response. :whistling2:


If any of you ever have a problem with our stuff, then pm me and I will send you both my toll-free phone # and my cell phone number. (I get pm notification on my BlackBerry).

Cheers,
Thomas aka Dahl(man) :thumbsup:


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## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

I pulled a new (less than 1 year old) eljer titan elog toilet, replaced it with a cheeper toto, customer was very happy.Has anyone but me ever knocked out the trap inside an eljer toilet approx 10 to 15 yrs ago I did it twice after that I used regular coil auger(general) or a plunger on all eljers .


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

retired rooter said:


> I pulled a new (less than 1 year old) eljer titan elog toilet, replaced it with a cheeper toto, customer was very happy.Has anyone but me ever knocked out the trap inside an eljer toilet approx 10 to 15 yrs ago I did it twice after that I used regular coil auger(general) or a plunger on all eljers .


I've knocked the back of a toilet trap out before with my general auger but i dont know what brands it happened on. The toilets were thin. Its a pisser when it happens because it makes a mess. Its only happened a couple times with me personally.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

GREENPLUM said:


> Toto makes great china, the best. I remember a few years ago hartsfield airport changed out all the zurn china and swapped it with Toto. A good friend of mine works for the airport and helped change out all the zurn to Toto fixtures. They also changed out the zurn faucets and flush valves.


They make them Toto fixtures just down the street from you too...
In Morrow, Georgia...
Have you visited the plant yet?


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

I would like to see how Totos are made. I watched a video during my apprenticeship, but it would be cool to see the factory.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

retired rooter said:


> I pulled a new (less than 1 year old) eljer titan elog toilet, replaced it with a cheeper toto, customer was very happy.Has anyone but me ever knocked out the trap inside an eljer toilet approx 10 to 15 yrs ago I did it twice after that I used regular coil auger(general) or a plunger on all eljers .


 

Yes. It happened once. While augering a w/c my auger head knocked out a piece of the porcelain (in effect I ruined the w/c). My auger head came out in the back of w/c from the trap curve. I believe it was a 1-piece Eljer.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> Yes. It happened once. While augering a w/c my auger head knocked out a piece of the porcelain (in effect I ruined the w/c). My auger head came out in the back of w/c from the trap curve. I believe it was a 1-piece Eljer.


Ok you broke it, but did you clear the trap? :laughing:


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