# Test Your Knowledge Part 2



## Duall Damage (Apr 3, 2011)

Customer calls and says they have hot water coming out of all the cold side fixtures. No moen shower valves are present. The customer has a natural gas water heater 40 Gallon. 

Their is no circ. pump as it is a two bath house single story. House is piped in copper.

What is the problem?:blink:

Good luck Boys!


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

There could alot of answers to this. One could be the Home owner hire a handyman to install a new Delta Shower Valve, and the handyman installed a rough in valve, but didn't install the cartridge, just put the plug in the valve body.


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## DIZ (Nov 17, 2010)

Will said:


> There could alot of answers to this. One could be the Home owner hire a handyman to install a new Delta Shower Valve, and the handyman installed a rough in valve, but didn't install the cartridge, just put the plug in the valve body.


This happened to me....didnt close integrals


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## DIZ (Nov 17, 2010)

please change your name to "the riddler"


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Is there cold coming out of the hot side of the fixtures?


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

There is a bleed over on one of the faucets, be it a lav, laundry or something. Start shutting off stops, and note when the problem is corrected. 

I don't believe the OP has enough information to nail it down, but that is the nature of service work. Get a call and go figure it out.


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## Duall Damage (Apr 3, 2011)

*The problem is not the faucet fixures or some Handyman Hac. No cold water is coming out on the hot side. No copper lines have been crossed.*


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Water heater was installed incorrectly.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

I agree, this one is more like a guessing game as too little info was provided.

I had a Mid Rise once where the Unit Owner installed a gate valve on the shower arm because the two handle valve was leaking so bad. Getting access to narrow down where the bleed over was the tough part.

Mark


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## Duall Damage (Apr 3, 2011)

Ok. There is no problem with any fixtures in the entire house. I will give a clue, it has something to do with the WH.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

It could be as simple as there is no expansion tank/expansion valve installed. The Home my have just had a PRV installed and there is no where for the hot to go except into the cold piping. We need more info!


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## Duall Damage (Apr 3, 2011)

Indie, The water heater was installed correctly and also is 12 years old. I hope this helps.


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## Duall Damage (Apr 3, 2011)

I will give my answer later tonight.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Cold copper trunk is getting heated by the wh somehow externally,(exhaust,??)....:blink:


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Duall learned something new yesterday and now he wants to share his knowledge by testing all of you.

There are so may variables, and since you keep referring back to the water heater, my vote is a failed dip tube, but who cares about my guess, I'm not there and cant check everything.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

It's going to be simple, buy due to the vague nature, we can only guess.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Duall Damage said:


> I will give my answer later tonight.


WAITING WITH BATED BREATH

Can't sleep, can't eat, can't poop, Oh please teacher tell us!


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I get $ 184.00 an hour for diagnostic work. $ 245.00 an hour for stupid questions :thumbsup:


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## Duall Damage (Apr 3, 2011)

ZC700 if you had read my first post (*Test Your Plumbing Knowledge*)then you would know this is not to test everyones knowledge but to share in our knowledge in hopes of learning something new and having fun doing it. Everyone has the opportunity to share their experiences and for the new guy or the seasoned ones who wants to advance his knowledge and career. So you might want to curb your criticism and try adding something positive.

And by the way ZL700 you are correct in saying a failed (Cracked) fill (dip) tube on the cold side.

Sorry for the vague discription, I'll try and be more clear next time.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

How is a cracked or missing dip tube, *with no other issues in the system*, going to cause hot water to ALL fixtures in the home?






Paul


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

rocksteady said:


> How is a cracked or missing dip tube, *with no other issues in the system*, going to cause hot water to ALL fixtures in the home?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would think it that the hot would be temporary due to bleed over while it sits with no use. Then using the cold water at a fixture would overcome the slug of hot. Like I said the information was to vague to draw a decent conclusion.


Duall will be more specific next time I am sure. Duall keep it up, at least its a change of pace on here.


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## Duall Damage (Apr 3, 2011)

Hey Rocksteady,

The fill tube I found to be cracked in half and it was bleeding/mixing hot water back into the cold side. When the home owner turned on say a faucet using the cold side, hot water was being pulled through the cracked fill tube and mixing into the cold.

Great question.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Duall Damage said:


> Customer calls and says they have hot water coming out of all the cold side fixtures. No moen shower valves are present. The customer has a natural gas water heater 40 Gallon.
> 
> Their is no circ. pump as it is a two bath house single story. House is piped in copper.
> 
> ...


 



Duall, has this scenario actually happened to you? It seems like a stretch if you ask me to have hot coming out of ALL the cold fixture outlets from a damaged dip tube. 

Whenever I have encountered a damaged dip tube, the symptoms were: luke warm water from hot outlets. The hot outlets never ran hot, always warm, due to incoming cold in W/H mixing in top with hot water.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Glad to see Plumber Bill was reading post # 7 this AM. 

Howya doin, Bill?


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Duall Damage said:


> Customer calls and says they have hot water coming out of all the cold side fixtures. No moen shower valves are present. The customer has a natural gas water heater 40 Gallon.
> 
> Their is no circ. pump as it is a two bath house single story. House is piped in copper.
> 
> ...


*Usually the call is not enough or no hot water, but I have seen hot water back into cold lines. In fact that is the way to check for a bad dip tube , providing no heat traps are installed Usually the heater will lose all hot upon use of the hot in very short order. Any back flow has to be by gravity, PERIOD ! Reason the cold will dilute the hot pretty quickly.*


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Duall Damage said:


> Hey Rocksteady,
> 
> The fill tube I found to be cracked in half and it was bleeding/mixing hot water back into the cold side. When the home owner turned on say a faucet using the cold side, hot water was being pulled through the cracked fill tube and mixing into the cold.
> 
> Great question.


 
I still don't get it. In a perfectly functioning brand new water heater where the dip tube is pristine, there is still hot water at the bottom of the tube. Hot water will siphon from a w/h with an intact dip tube if you're working below the heater (that little hole in the tube has failed me more than once ). I don't see how a cracked/broken/missing dip tube can cause this *if nothing else is wrong with the system*. You shouldn't have to put a check valve on the incoming cold in order to keep the hot water in the w/h. Sure, heat will transfer out of the w/h but as Mr. Parr mentioned, it will become dilluted fairly quickly and certainly won't affect all the fixtures. Something else has to be wrong.




Paul


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## Eric (Jan 10, 2011)

*Here's a new one:*

Customer has an essex tub (tub on legs) with an add on shower. Not hand held an actual shower head.

When ever the "shower" is used, there is a loud sound through out the house, which can be heard all the way to the basement and the tub is on the 3rd floor. 

Nothing blocking the stems, replacing the stems does nothing. Does not make the sound when the tub is in use only the shower. 

Picture of faucet is below. I did not install the faucet, was only called to diagnosis the issue.

What is it?? :whistling2:


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Indie said:


> It's going to be simple, buy due to the vague nature, we can only guess.


Okay I have one for you guys, I have 3-two handle Kohler Alterna valves in my master bath tub/shower. This is a four part question:

1. Are all six handles matching?

2. If so what finish are they.

3. If so what inserts did I go with?

4. After 20-years how many stems are original?

Mark


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## Duall Damage (Apr 3, 2011)

My guess would be the flow restictor in the shower head is causing some sort of vibration.


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

Id have to agree. Though there may have been a failure in the diptube there would have to be a crossover somewhere to drive the hot water through the cold inlet. Even then the crossover event should be short lived. Besides a broken diptube usually comes through as warm water or very little hot water. And at 12 years I'm not even looking at the diptube. If I think its the heater, the heater is going, not wasting any time with a diptube.


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

Eric said:


> Customer has an essex tub (tub on legs) with an add on shower. Not hand held an actual shower head.
> 
> When ever the "shower" is used, there is a loud sound through out the house, which can be heard all the way to the basement and the tub is on the 3rd floor.
> 
> ...


Shower head. If that's not it sell'em ear plugs:


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> Okay I have one for you guys, I have 3-two handle Kohler Alterna valves in my master bath tub/shower. This is a four part question:
> 
> 1. Are all six handles matching?
> 
> ...


 

1. Yes (that's how you roll)

2. BN (again, that's how you roll)

3. Not a clue (that's how I roll)

4. All of them are Kohler original stems....


I doubt I did very well...............


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

ToUtahNow said:


> Okay I have one for you guys, I have 3-two handle Kohler Alterna valves in my master bath tub/shower. This is a four part question:
> 
> 1. Are all six handles matching?
> 
> ...


1- no
2- all are chrome except the hot stem with the vise grip as a lever handle
3- mighty putty
4- unlike every other Kohler, yes


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Eric said:


> Customer has an essex tub (tub on legs) with an add on shower. Not hand held an actual shower head.
> 
> When ever the "shower" is used, there is a loud sound through out the house, which can be heard all the way to the basement and the tub is on the 3rd floor.
> 
> ...


Small amount of water passing through tub spout diverter, causing it to chatter.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> Okay I have one for you guys, I have 3-two handle Kohler Alterna valves in my master bath tub/shower. This is a four part question:
> 
> 1. Are all six handles matching?
> 
> ...





Airgap said:


> 1. Yes (that's how you roll)
> 
> 2. BN (again, that's how you roll)
> 
> ...


You did great, you just didn't get them all so I will offer some clues.

1. You already got this one.

2. No I am much more practical than that.

3. Again think practical.

4. Because all three valves are installed in a vertical orientation, at least 3-stems were replaced when new.

Mark


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

This is in a commercial building

Two back to back bathrooms on 2nd floor
Three toilets, three lavatories each. 
One water heater feeding both baths, 30 gallon low boy Rheem (electric) 
Both bathrooms have been in use for around 4 years, but just recently updated fixtures.
Cimmeron toilets and Kolher single handle lavatory faucets. 
1inch shock arrestor on main cold water feed to both baths and water heater (heater is suspended above acoustic ceiling)

When hot water is run in lavatory faucets is sounds like marbles running up and down the walls. After a short pause the heater begins to make and awful noise and sounds like something is hung up in it just swirling around inside.

What's the problem?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> This is in a commercial building
> 
> Two back to back bathrooms on 2nd floor
> Three toilets, three lavatories each.
> ...


 



Pieces of solder in lines?


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> Pieces of solder in lines?


One of my first guesses when told about the issue, but no

I was the 3rd tech to be called over there to fix the problem.


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

Id check to see if the arrestor went bad.
30 gallon low boy... does it have flow control nipples? Maybe one with the balls that get f*ed up?


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

plumb nutz said:


> Id check to see if the arrestor went bad.
> 30 gallon low boy... does it have flow control nipples? Maybe one with the balls that get f*ed up?


Changed sock arrestor first, they were regular heater nipples. Still heard marbles...


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## Duall Damage (Apr 3, 2011)

Angle stops on hot side of lav is half open/closed causing turbulance in the line when faucet is turned on? or I would disconnect hot and cold flex lines from water heater and make a loop connection turn on water at lav faucet to rule out water heater/lav. Was this Done? 

If the noise went away after making loop then I would guess heating element problem or heavy sediment in water heater. If it didn't go away then I would shut off water supply, one faucet at a time to rule them out until I found the problem.

Other than that I'm stumped!

Excellent question.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Duall Damage said:


> Angle stops on hot side of lav is half open/closed causing turbulance in the line when faucet is turned on? or I would disconnect hot and cold flex lines from water heater and make a loop connection turn on water at lav faucet to rule out water heater/lav. Was this Done?
> 
> If the noise went away after making loop then I would guess heating element problem or heavy sediment in water heater.
> 
> Excellent question.


Water heater was hard piped in.

They soldered short pieces in female adapters and at first glance you could tell they had sweat them in while threaded onto the nipples, I figured they had melted the dip tube and I also thought of the sediment issue.

Shut heater down, drained heater and flushed several times....

Checked lav stops as well.

Still had marbles.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

And when cold water was run in lav no marble sounds in wall.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Older water heater with part of a previously replaced element banging around inside?









Paul


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Late getting in on this one but have to disagree with OP. A broken/cracked/damaged or entirely missing dip tube CANNOT  cause hot water to flow out of the cold lines. :no: Never


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## Eric (Jan 10, 2011)

Ok my tub problem was caused by too much flow thru the shower riser pipe. 

The fitting on the tub faucet that feeds the shower had a smaller opening in it and with larger flow caused a loud whistle like sound that could be heard thru the whole house.

Removing the shower head didn't work. Replaced the shower head to a lower flow one did it, and now nice and quiet.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Duall Damage said:


> ZC700 if you had read my first post (*Test Your Plumbing Knowledge*)then you would know this is not to test everyones knowledge but to share in our knowledge in hopes of learning something new and having fun doing it. Everyone has the opportunity to share their experiences and for the new guy or the seasoned ones who wants to advance his knowledge and career. So you might want to curb your criticism and try adding something positive.
> 
> And by the way ZL700 you are correct in saying a failed (Cracked) fill (dip) tube on the cold side.
> 
> Sorry for the vague discription, I'll try and be more clear next time.


*Looks like I win the Boobie prize!*


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

:blink: Hmmm  ZL700 see my post two post's above your post  You guy's are misleading the apprentices that may be reading this. THIS CANNOT HAPPEN, TRUST ME. :thumbsup:


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

I'll post the solved problem for my issue later on tonight....

I'll give a hint,

I climbed up in the ceiling in the bathroom that housed the water heater and the cold water feed was moving back and forth in the bar joyces continuously.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

OK here's on for ya. Customer calls for service, no water in the house anywhere. Plumber shows up, enters house, checks water in kitchen, full pressure. Plumber checks meter, valves pretty much everything visible in the basement. Water still on, plumber leaves. Two hours later, same call. Plumber gets there, water is back on. This goes on for about three days. Call the water department in, they check their end out, all's good. Keeps happening a couple times a day for a couple weeks. Finally problem goes away all by itself.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> OK here's on for ya. Customer calls for service, no water in the house anywhere. Plumber shows up, enters house, checks water in kitchen, full pressure. Plumber checks meter, valves pretty much everything visible in the basement. Water still on, plumber leaves. Two hours later, same call. Plumber gets there, water is back on. This goes on for about three days. Call the water department in, they check their end out, all's good. Keeps happening a couple times a day for a couple weeks. Finally problem goes away all by itself.


Water department flushing fire hydrants in the neighborhood?







Paul


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Pipe Rat said:


> :blink: Hmmm  ZL700 see my post two post's above your post  You guy's are misleading the apprentices that may be reading this. THIS CANNOT HAPPEN, TRUST ME. :thumbsup:


Actually it does happen but only briefly and not consistent.

A failed dip tube will allow hot water to migrate up cold line probably into cold water tee above. This happens when the burner fires. When cold water is run this slug of warm water will seem like the cold side is delivering hot water. 

This won't occur for long but on a lav faucet it may seem like it.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Yes ZL a momentary warm spot can happen but your OP led everyone to believe the hot flow outta the cold side was constant. Furthermore this heat migration can occur just as easily dip tube or no dip tube. :yes:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

rocksteady said:


> Water department flushing fire hydrants in the neighborhood?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## PlumberShep (Sep 22, 2010)

Duall Damage said:


> Customer calls and says they have hot water coming out of all the cold side fixtures. No moen shower valves are present. The customer has a natural gas water heater 40 Gallon.
> 
> Their is no circ. pump as it is a two bath house single story. House is piped in copper.
> 
> ...


I'm going to need a little less info please.


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