# What faucets?



## Song Dog (Jun 12, 2008)

In service repair and replacement, what faucets do you use?
I use Wolverine.
Well, I use Wolverine for most of my parts and assemblies.

In Christ,

Song Dog


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

Song Dog said:


> In service repair and replacement, what faucets do you use?
> I use Wolverine.
> Well, I use Wolverine for most of my parts and assemblies.
> 
> ...


Heh heh. I bet I know what inspired you to make this post! -grin

I prefer Wolverine. Can't do the volume right now to deal with them so I use mostly Delta.

BTW, somehere around here I have a sweet little cast Wolverine Brass bank/truck from about 10 years or so ago. Anyone remember those? Our rep gave it to the company I worked for and I won it in a grab bag thing my boss did.


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## Song Dog (Jun 12, 2008)

22, How did you know?:thumbsup:
I got one of those banks. Rhett and Grace TRY to play with it:no:

I sold a Kitch friday,a 2 hndl Lav saturday and 2 hnld Lav ordered

Btw- My rep dropped off a awesome knife the other day, could darn near shave with it.

In Christ,

Song Dog


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## threaderman (Jun 17, 2008)

Wolverine is a fine brand though I haven't installed one in years.It seems as though delta, price phister and amer.std. are popular here.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

I've had a lot of trouble with Wolverines in this hard water area. I'm guessing the cartridge has changed a bit from the old days when I had to bust them to pieces to get them out. I still have some of those cartridges on the truck.

When "Plumber Friendly" came out, I thought that was a great idea and invested a pile of money in them. Turned out they were a subsidiary of Wolverine and the main company decided to take them under its umbrella again when they proved successful and Plumber Friendly ceased to exist.

Bother.

I've had a bit of trouble with the cheap pressure-balance cartridge they use freezing up.

Most of my customers like the lowest priced faucets they can get and of course I stay away from plastic and try to use something that will hold up for a few years. The best bang for the buck is the Peerless with its Delta parts and you can get 'em cheap. They have a solid brass body and now have ceramic cartridges. 

I shy away from Moen since they decided that so many of their faucets should have those teensy machine screws holding the faucet handle on. They keep winding themselves out and either bend or fall off in the sink. However, I still lean toward the Moen Posi-Temp for tub and shower valves.

For a better-quality sink and lav faucet, I like Gerber or American Standard. My Gerber pull-out needs a new head about once every three years when the rubber buttons wear out, but other than that has never needed anything. The heads are universal and you can get 'em at Homey for $20.


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## threaderman (Jun 17, 2008)

I repaired a odd 2 handle tub/shower valve today,it was made by sterling,square shaft from the stem instead of the round stem with splines.
I believe the valve has some years on it.It has some plastic guts that look similar to a multi-layered delta cartridge only with the cone washer and spring in the middle of the cartridge,but the stem /cartridge is in 2 pieces and I don't think the inner plastic body comes out.
In order to re-install it,you have to work the stem shaft back and forth as you tighten the bonnet nut or the stem will snap.It was different.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Our usage tends to run in cycles, it whatever is the hot thing at the showhouse in the Merchandise Mart, two years ago it was Jado and Rohl for the most part, now it is Waterworks, Phyllrich, and Kallista. For big multi outlet showers we use mostly Dornbracht and Hansgrohe thermostatic and control valves, they seem to deliver the best volume. We occasionally install a Kohler wall mounted lav faucet, but the number of those is dropping now that Kohler owns Kallista. Oh, and we have one designer we work for that uses almost nothing but Anne Sacks, another Kohler owned company.


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## bobdog (Jun 18, 2008)

the inner plastic can be removed. you can also turn it 180 degrees to change rotation..they are "disposable" faucets.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

I like anything that is of good quality and can't be price shopped by the homeowner. This removes pretty much any name brand commonly available to the ho. Wolverine would be great but I find them so hideous that it's difficult for me to sell them. Many times I have entered a home where the ho had Price Pfister or some other lav faucet from the box store sitting out waiting for me to install. Within a few minutes of bringing in my alternative offering and demonstrating the differences and letting the ho handle both faucets, we are re-packaging the HD/Blowes faucet for return and I'm installing my faucet.

I'd tell you who I'm using but it's working so well for me that I just can't give that one up just yet. The main thing is find something of good quality that can't be easily price shopped. I don't carry a single Delta, Moen, Price Pfister, Peerless, Kohler, or any other low end name brand faucet on my truck.

To make up for my faucet stinginess I'll offer up my toilet picks. Toto, Toto, Toto! Of course most of you probably already know that.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I rarely sell faucets off the truck, other than those washerless 1/4 turn laundry tub faucets.

The other is the R10000 Delta shower faucet.



Got a problem with any faucet *WB for sure* when a customer of mine is forced to go back to the installer of the faucet, simply because no supply house will stock it.


I'll never do that to my customers, ever.

I should at least give them an opportunity to install commonly found products so I don't indirectly play the shell game with them.


I have two customers in that exact situation, they always get gouged again from the initial installer. 

You certanly wouldn't want it done to you...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

DUNBAR said:


> I rarely sell faucets off the truck, other than those washerless 1/4 turn laundry tub faucets.
> 
> The other is the R10000 Delta shower faucet.
> 
> ...


I agree! Your screwing the customer and the next plumber...


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## Song Dog (Jun 12, 2008)

To be honest. I am not screwing no one, homeowner or plumber. My guarantee on the faucets are for life. It costs the ho nothing if I work on it. Them knowing the guarantee is for life, they will call me back for it or something else. I have yet to work on one that I have installed. So far so good.
Will let you know when I do:thumbsup:

In Christ,

Song Dog


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

DUNBAR said:


> I rarely sell faucets off the truck, other than those washerless 1/4 turn laundry tub faucets.
> 
> The other is the R10000 Delta shower faucet.
> 
> ...


I can't tell you how happy I am that you feel that way. When your customer's commonly available "Delta" scales up and starts leaking and they can't find your phone number or you are too busy to get out there fast enough, then that means I will have a shot at them. I will offer them both a repair and a replacement option. If they replace, I will sell them a faucet that is of excellent quality and not readily available. Yes, I am in business to make a profit and to stay in business. Whatever I can do within my standard of ethics, to make that customer loyal to me, I will do. If I am fortunate enough to provide them with service, they will never call you again .


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> I can't tell you how happy I am that you feel that way. When your customer's commonly available "Delta" scales up and starts leaking and they can't find your phone number or you are too busy to get out there fast enough, then that means I will have a shot at them. I will offer them both a repair and a replacement option. If they replace, I will sell them a faucet that is of excellent quality and not readily available. Yes, I am in business to make a profit and to stay in business. Whatever I can do within my standard of ethics, to make that customer loyal to me, I will do. If I am fortunate enough to provide them with service, they will never call you again .


 

If you only knew the bad reputation that connotates in my area, leaving a customer with limited or no options, you'd rethink your profit priorities.


I stand by statements solid; I don't put my customers in compromising positions to where they have to be pushed into a corner to decide what and how much this invisible faucet costs, literally.


What I find ironic is those who support this logic of blind hits at the customer, and thinking you're going to live forever servicing that faucet/fixture. 

3 years, 1 year, next month you could have a life changing experience that forces you out of the trade, and guess who's holding the bag...


BTW, 


Wolverine Brass if that's what you're implying, is not a quality faucet/product. If the reps from WB want to exercise their freedom of speech to defend, have them contact me. I've got history on both sides of the coin in dealing with their products.

the customer who entrusted you to make a decision that adversely affects them down the road to double spend.


I respect my profession and my customers whether I ever do work for them again, I won't have the reputation in my area to stiff the ones who afford my way of living.



I should put the Senior Citizens on here that paid twice for that plumber's way of thinking on how WB is such a great product, and on sale today! No offer of any other brand.

Their Shower cartridges are notorious for simple failure with the hint of dirt/debri.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

DUNBAR said:


> If you only knew the bad reputation that connotates in my area, leaving a customer with limited or no options, you'd rethink your profit priorities.
> 
> 
> I stand by statements solid; I don't put my customers in compromising positions to where they have to be pushed into a corner to decide what and how much this invisible faucet costs, literally.
> ...


We install exactly what the designer or architect specs for the job. Yes we know some of it is pure junk, like Danze and Water Works, but who the hell are we to dictate appearance or taste? Three years down the road we know those people are going to regret the choice, but it is not our job to correct architects or designers.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> We install exactly what the designer or architect specs for the job. Yes we know some of it is pure junk, like Danze and Water Works, but who the hell are we to dictate appearance or taste? Three years down the road we know those people are going to regret the choice, but it is not our job to correct architects or designers.


 

Your statement follows the context other than the one I responded to.


If you can't control that circumstance, how is that your fault?


I'm speaking of the service plumber who chose proprietary products in the bait to allow only specific hands to get back in there to keep the maintenance up.


The customer has choices, of course, but I have not met one honest plumber selling WB faucets and openly informs the customer that they will probably be the only guy in town to service it. 


And of course, that plumber will live forever to keep them maintained. Just the fabricated design of that logic time stamps what just probably will be their demise. :no:


How would you like it if someone came to your home and installed products, and you have absolutely no chance of getting the fair chance to take care of it? 

Just like those WB fill valves in toilets; they all come back out and 400A's are going back in their place...


just the same way that Kohler and American Standard started doing with all their product lines, putting in common parts. There's a million ways to skin a cat when it comes to making money in plumbing.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

DUNBAR said:


> Your statement follows the context other than the one I responded to.
> 
> 
> If you can't control that circumstance, how is that your fault?
> ...


We will not be able to see eye to eye on this I'm afraid.

First, I was not referring to WB (read my first post in this thread).

Second I do not sell junk. How many times have I heard (in my neck of the woods) "you should use Delta 'cause parts are so easy to get"? What kind of back asswards logic is that!? I don't know what faucetry is popular in your area. I pick on Delta because they are the undisputed king here. In my opinon they produce crap. It's true, they are simple to work on, which is very good since I work on them every single week. 

I am doing my clients no disservice by selling them products of superior quality even though they are not readily known. I work on Delta's "washerless design" every week. They are keenly susceptible to scale problems. I have repaired or replaced hundreds of them. On the other hand I have replaced exactly two ceramic disc cartridges and both were on American Standard ks faucets. I do not sell AS either although I find them to be considerably better than Delta. 

As for 400A's, Kholer (slick ads and crappy products), and American Standard (can you say Chumpion), you're joking right!? As soon as the prv fails (prv replacement is my single most frequent plumbing task) the fluidmaster begins to fail. It's so bad that as soon as I explain that the ho's pressure is too high and why (I always get them to look at the gauge for themselves) that the very next thing I do is explain that when we correct their pressure problem it is possible that one or more of the toilets may not work properly. I sometimes have to rebuild every toilet in the house after replacing a prv. Even if there are no pressure issues you're still only going to get 5 years max out of one. This problem does not exist with brass ball cocks. I prefer Burlington but have used WB and Mansfield as well.

If I'm selling top quality that the ho's have never heard of and can't work on if they wanted to and someone else is selling well known crap that is going to fail predictably but that the ho or any other plumber can easily obtain parts for, who is better serving their customer (this of course is a purely rhetorical question)?


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Redwood said:


> I agree! Your screwing the customer and the next plumber...


I want to thank you as well Red for extending that invitation to me to be their next plumber .


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> [/color]
> 
> I want to thank you as well Red for extending that invitation to me to be their next plumber .


I actually get quite a few calls where another company in the area has installed a WB faucet... The customer usually tells me that company will never cross the door step again... Just another one of those rape and pillage outfits...

I alwavs explain that the part will take several days to get and the part is free my labor isn't... Or, I have a Delta on the truck and parts can be had anywhere....

About 40% go with the Delta...


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Ok let me explain this plainly, slowly, and clearly. I do not nor have I ever installed a Wolverine Brass faucet. I don't know if they are any good or not. They are ugly to me and I would not sell them for that reason alone. I do not believe that I have ever had a call back on any faucet I have sold from this particular unnamed line of faucetry. If I ever did have a call back on them however, I would absolutely honor the warranty. It would cost the ho exactly zero! I do not get many call backs of any sort but I did get one today as a matter of fact. A disposer flange had gotten a little loose on a kitchen sink install I did a couple of months ago and was leaking. From the time the call came in to the time I pulled into their driveway was 45 minutes. I took care of it, "sorry this happened, let us know if there is anything else we can do for you, have a great day", no charge.

You're logic defeats itself. Ok so someone sold them a crappy faucet that it's hard to get parts for and then you come along and sell them a crappy faucet that it's easy to get parts for. You didn't do any better for the customer than the first guy. You just made it easier for them to call someone else to fix it next time. Now if you offer no warranty or have no intention of honoring your warranties then yes it would be in the customers intrest to sell them some crap that is easily worked on but if it is important to you to honor your warranties why wouldn't you want your customer to call you the minute they experience any plumbing problem?

This thinking just doesn't really make good sense.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Redwood said:


> I actually get quite a few calls where another company in the area has installed a WB faucet... The customer usually tells me that company will never cross the door step again... Just another one of those rape and pillage outfits...
> 
> I alwavs explain that the part will take several days to get and the part is free my labor isn't... Or, I have a Delta on the truck and parts can be had anywhere....
> 
> About 40% go with the Delta...


I would install a piece of crap Danze before I would install a Delta if it was my choice, they both will fail but the Danze is easier to fix.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> I would install a piece of crap Danze before I would install a Delta if it was my choice, they both will fail but the Danze is easier to fix.


How long have you had that problem with your taste budds?
Do you enjoy flat watered down beer too?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> We will not be able to see eye to eye on this I'm afraid.
> 
> First, I was not referring to WB (read my first post in this thread).
> 
> ...


 
Delta owns a sizeable market in the industry which keeps you employed by your own sentiment. Don't chop off the hands that feed you. If you know Delta products, they make a ceramic cartridge assembly that will retrofit any faucet out there. It's expensive but you get considerably more life out of those parts that are notorious for wear.

Delta just changed their design to cartridge type which is ceramic/diamond technology. I expressed my dissatisfaction for this move, they searched me out and found me, talked to me and sent me a faucet to give my opinion of the design.

Been installing 400A's for years and have watched all their designs perfect the product to today, otherwise major mfgs. of well known products wouldn't accept the use of them. Your idea of an all brass setup is better, but no one is going to pay me $28-$55 for that fill valve on top my hourly wages. 

The customer I think for the most part doesn't care if it doesn't last "a long time" or not it seems. Out of sight out of mind. I'm getting more than 6 years out of fill valves I've replaced...I'm trying to think with a headache right now of how many fill valves I've replaced over the span of toilet rebuilds. Maybe 10-12 tops and estimating high. Dirt/debri to blame. I'm gauging this by the number of cases of 400A's I've bought under my company name since 2002. 

I certainly wouldn't install a product with a poor track record knowing I'm they'll call to replace them all at no charge if I do.





> If I'm selling top quality that the ho's have never heard of and can't work on if they wanted to and someone else is selling well known crap that is going to fail predictably but that the ho or any other plumber can easily obtain parts for, who is better serving their customer (this of course is a purely rhetorical question


 
So, another rhetorical question:

Can I sell you a no-name faucet, defame all others in the working product industry because I can, offer a guarantee that it ever leaks that I'll be there in a jiffy, no cost whatsoever? 


It sounds as bad as it looks. And it's amazing you won't even mention the product name, probably proflo. :whistling2:


I guarantee workmanship from leaks and failures, not product. I step up and put the best the market has and for the most part I've had much success with my product choices NOT coming back and biting me in the ass. 

If you overstep your bounds in salesmanship with the customer, you can implicate yourself as trying to solve the world's plumbing problems because everyone else can't. Just my humble opinion and I play fair to the customer.


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## Song Dog (Jun 12, 2008)

Where did this thread go south? 


In Christ,

Song Dog


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Damn! I wrote a book this morning! 


Blame it on good drugs and low blood sugar! :blink:


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