# Mop sink cross connection ?



## dclarke

Do they make faucets with integral check valves ? I have a fiat 830-aa that just had a whole convenience store with no hot water because they have a cleaning solution serious and had hot and cold faucets left on. If so what's the best method to remedy the situation ?


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## plumbdrum

This is how we do it in Ma


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## bct p&h

plumbdrum said:


> This is how we do it in Ma
> View attachment 65330
> View attachment 65338


Never liked that way of doing it or the newish policy of not requiring a permit. I still think it should be a mixing valve and a 009.

Back to the original question. I can't think of a deck mount with integral checks but you can put ⅜ths check valves on the supply tubes.
Last time I had a call that was because of a soap system like that, they were getting hot water everywhere.


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## dclarke

Guess I didn't clarify. It's not deck mount. It's a wall mount. Says it has integral stops. But that doesnt say check valve to me.


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## wharfrat

Must install Check valves. You will be going back again and again if not.


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## Gargalaxy

Fiat 830-aa spec....


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## Cajunhiker

Sounds like you need a mop sink faucet with an AVB. I installed 3 of these made by Chicago in the past month. Cross connection is a concern because the spout is threaded, which means a hose can be screwed onto to spout.


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## 89plumbum

wharfrat said:


> Must install Check valves. You will be going back again and again if not.


Ditto


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## plumbdrum

While I agree with you, this is the best solution for the after thought process of installing these devises and have the the issue of cross connections referred in the OP statement.


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## Gargalaxy

Cajunhiker said:


> Sounds like you need a mop sink faucet with an AVB. I installed 3 of these made by Chicago in the past month. Cross connection is a concern because the spout is threaded, which means a hose can be screwed onto to spout.


Utilities or mop sink faucets (chicago, fiat 830, T&S.....) are the same configuration just different looks. 
- integral stops.
- 3/4" hose thread on spout.
- Vaccum Breaker Atmosphere Type (AVB ).


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## mccmech

I've seen, in food establishments with multi-bay kitchen sinks, where the hot & cold are left open & volume is controlled by a valve to the spout or hand-spray. Hot water migrates right to the cold side when cold fixtures opened.


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## wyrickmech

A lot of the faucets have a floating seat in them to control crossover in the bridge. Vacuum breaker type protection will not hold up to code because they are only good for 12 hours of use in a 24 hour period. There is no easy way to fix this problem except a double check on the line to the soap dispenser.


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## bct p&h

The built in checks on mop faucets are awful. After a little time the only thing they do is make a lot of noise when you slightly open the faucet. Your best bet would be either a dedicated mix line with a backflow to the soap or if you can isolate the mop faucet, put a couple real checks on it.


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## dclarke

My thoughts are/were to put in checks in the hot and cold in the ceiling above the mop sink. I'm also limited on what the store will approve. They may say they don't wanna spend the money and leave it as is. My plan if approved is use propress and add unions on either side of the check valves knowing one day they will fail and need replaced. Next, spring checks or swing checks ? I was thinking swing checks would cut it for this purpose.


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## Plumberman

Spring in the vertical and swing if in horizontal 

If they don't approve the checks then just keep charging full price to turn off the water to the dispenser, before too long they will have paid for the checks. Lol

It blows my mind why owners wont spend a little to save a bunch.


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## dclarke

I was planning swings on the horizontal in the ceiling. No room before it runs down in an outside wall to do the vertical. This of course saying we get approval. I try telling people pay now or pay later. Sometimes they listen. I'll keep charging them to turn off a faucet.


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## Plumberman

Indeed, maybe one day they will realize they could have saved some money if they would just listen.


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## Fatpat

Don't over think it.

3/4" hose AVB


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## bct p&h

This is to everyone suggesting a hose vacuum breaker, it won't work. The cross connection is happening in the faucet, not after the spout. The only thing the vacuum breaker will do is protect the water supply from the soap dispenser. He needs to have a check on the hot and cold of the faucet or piping before it.


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## Gargalaxy

Don't make sense add a hose vacuum breaker to a faucet that has one already (that's why I posted the spec pic). IMO the only solution like wyrickmech said, double check.


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## MACPLUMB777

mccmech said:


> I've seen, in food establishments with multi-bay kitchen sinks, where the hot & cold are left open & volume is controlled by a valve to the spout or hand-spray. Hot water migrates right to the cold side when cold fixtures opened.


Years ago I had that problem with a Taco Bell, the health Dept was going to shut down because of not hot enough hot water, 
1. replaced gas valve on heater did not solve problem,
2. install a new high recovery water heater waited for it to shut down on temp.
still same problem
so while going though restaurant checking water temperatures found prewash sink with hot and cold both on controlled by spray handle problem solved :whistling2:


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## dclarke

That's a very expensive oversight.


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## wyrickmech

That's why T&S faucets for kitchens have spring loaded seats only open when water flows. Not my fave route brand but everybody gets it right now and then.


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## thumper

Chicago faucets use the same stems in all their faucet that have no built in checks. Chicago has an optional check in the offset arm, so if you have an existing faucet it can be converted or replaced if not functioning.
Chicago GCJKCP 3/8" Offset Inlet Supply Arm w/ Integral Checkhttp://chicagofaucets.com/catalog/catalog.php?name=Our%20Products&part_number=GCJKABCP
Run into the cross connections all the time. Easy way to find the problem if it is occurring when you are there is to feel the hot and cold side of faucets in which this can occur. Pre-rinse faucets, service sink faucets connected to chemical dispensers....
The offending faucet will be either cold or hot where it shouldn't be.
If not occurring, try opening both hot and cold stems to all suspected faucets and feel again.


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## kellybhutchings

I work for a school district and the kitchens have the same problem with water crossing over at the mop sinks. The managers of the kitchens now know to not leave the mop sink faucet on all day with a sprayer.


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## mtfallsmikey

Have Fiat 830's in both of my buildings, each has a cleaning solution dispenser station on the 1st floor mop sinks, never had this problem, but have had to replace most of the vac. breakers in them, nasty water.


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## crackerjack7575

I always put checks in under 3 comp sinks on set out if there is a sprayer on the faucet. 


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## cowserj

Should only need one spring check on cold side in ceiling to solve problem


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## BOBBYTUCSON

home depot grab a sharkbite slip fitting check valve on cold water side . cut copper , slip it on, done in 5 mins


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## JimmyMac

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> home depot grab a sharkbite slip fitting check valve on cold water side . cut copper , slip it on, done in 5 mins


Got to disagree with you there, I have seen it cross both ways need a check on each line hot and cold...have had hot water in toilets at multiple supermarkets always cracks me up, pretty funny when its steaming out of the toilet..nothing like a hot $hit


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## cowserj

Check valve on cold side stops that no need for one on hot side


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## bct p&h

cowserj said:


> Check valve on cold side stops that no need for one on hot side


What is going to keep the cold from crossing over to the hot side?
I've said it before but apparently it needs to be said again BOTH side would need a check. If you have a pressure drop on one side the water will cross over, doesn't matter if it is hot or cold. You need to protect both sides. It's like putting on one oven mitt and wondering why your other hand got burnt.


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## JimmyMac

bct p&h said:


> what is going to keep the cold from crossing over to the hot side?
> I've said it before but apparently it needs to be said again both side would need a check. If you have a pressure drop on one side the water will cross over, doesn't matter if it is hot or cold. You need to protect both sides. It's like putting on one oven mitt and wondering why your other hand got burnt.


agreed!


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## cowserj

There is always cold water on hot side the only thing that happens is people would run water until it gets hot which they already would either way so it makes no differance


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## 89plumbum

cowserj said:


> There is always cold water on hot side the only thing that happens is people would run water until it gets hot which they already would either way so it makes no differance


Please re-read.




bct p&h said:


> What is going to keep the cold from crossing over to the hot side?
> I've said it before but apparently it needs to be said again BOTH side would need a check. If you have a pressure drop on one side the water will cross over, doesn't matter if it is hot or cold. You need to protect both sides. It's like putting on one oven mitt and wondering why your other hand got burnt.


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## bct p&h

cowserj said:


> There is always cold water on hot side the only thing that happens is people would run water until it gets hot which they already would either way so it makes no differance


I'm doubting you being a master. 
If there is a cross connection the water may never get hot. I just did a service call in an animal hospital today with this very same problem. A sink in the pharmacy wouldn't get over 90 degrees but it is piped into the 140 line. Walked through the entire 75,000 square foot building that has close to 90 sinks of different types and found that one of the wash tables had both hot and cold water left on with the sprayer off. The faucet is very similar to a faucet you would see on a 3 bay with a sprayer. The internal check failed. I shut the handles and the pharmacy sink was getting 140 again. So tell me how having a check on just the cold side would have prevented this from happening?


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## cowserj

First my Texas master license number is m-39522 second I suppose that scenario could be possible but seems like your circ pump would have to not function well and your hot water piping to building would have to be under sized pretty bad to draw that much cold water installing a new check on hot side might alleviate the problem but there is a larger underlying problem here


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## bct p&h

cowserj said:


> First my Texas master license number is m-39522 second I suppose that scenario could be possible but seems like your circ pump would have to not function well and your hot water piping to building would have to be under sized pretty bad to draw that much cold water installing a new check on hot side might alleviate the problem but there is a larger underlying problem here


1- circ is on an aquastat so there are periods when it would be off, as it should be.
2- the sink in question is on the end of the run so it is ½". The main size doesn't matter at that point. We did the original base building and the half a dozen renovations over the years, all water pipe sizing is correct. Most of it is actually oversized now since they eliminated quite a few fixtures to make room for more kennels and equipment.

If you have a cross connection and a pressure drop on one side you will end up with hot where you want cold or cold where you want hot. You still haven't explained how a check on one side will fix the problem. Prove it and I'm sure you can sell your idea to every commercial faucet manufacturer for a boat load of money. Think of how much they would save by only putting a check on the cold side of all of their faucets.


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