# PEX and sources of heat



## thekctermite

Here's something that might bear mentioning.

Many plumbers (and inspectors) are unaware of the PEX manufacturers' requirement that their pipes not be installed in close proximity to sources of heat. Over time, exposure to high heat will make PEX brittle.

I often see PEX right next to can lights, furnace and water heater flues, fireplace vents, B-wall vents, etc. The manufacturers require 6" of clearance to any source of heat, and the manufacturers' association literature requires 6" horizontal clearance and 12" vertical clearance. 

You won't find this in the code. But, inspectors are supposed to enforce manufacturers' requirements as well. 

It is usually easy to fix, but who wants the hassle!


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## WestCoastPlumber

UPC states 18" from the water heater, so that means the water heater flex, then hard pipe for 18", then pex.


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## 22rifle

WestCoastPlumber said:


> UPC states 18" from the water heater, so that means the water heater flex, then hard pipe for 18", then pex.


How do you figure that it calls for 18" of hard pipe?


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## 22rifle

From Uponor:


> Recessed Lighting
> There are two types of recessed lights: Type I.C. (Insulated Ceiling) —
> direct contact with thermal insulation and Type Non-I.C. (Non-insulated
> Ceiling) — 3-inch minimal clearance with thermal insulation.
> • If there is not enough room in the joist cavity to meet the 12-inch
> restriction stated by Wirsbo, then insulation is required.
> • The insulation must be rated to withstand the temperatures
> generated by the fixture.
> • All tubing that is within 12 inches of the recessed light must be
> insulated with closed-cell polyethylene, polyolefin or other suitable
> pipe insulation for 12 inches on either side of the light.
> • Insulation is required anytime a UV light source is used; tubing
> must be protected for direct UV exposure.


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## 22rifle

From Uponor again:



> Do not install AQUAPEX tubing within 6 inches of any gas appliance
> vents, with the exception of double-wall B-vents (with a minimum
> clearance of 1 inch).


I appreciate the heads up OP, but please be careful about promulgating incorrect information on here. Not saying you were. I just hate to see bad info given out.


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## WestCoastPlumber

22rifle said:


> How do you figure that it calls for 18" of hard pipe?


 
UPC 604.13.2 WATER HEATER CONNECTIONS

PEX-AL-PEX OR PE-AL-PE tubing shall not be installed within the first 18" of of piping connected tot he water heater.

so, in my book, and inspectors minds, pex needs to be installed min 18" from the water heater, so I run my 18" water flex, then 18" in thge wall, tie in with pex. I use hard pipe to make the connection ridgid, I perfer work that last many years, not a wobbly hack job coming out of the wall.

should have just said 18", rather then the way I put it. I added my personal needs


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## Ron

WestCoastPlumber said:


> UPC 604.13.2 WATER HEATER CONNECTIONS
> 
> PEX-AL-PEX OR PE-AL-PE tubing shall not be installed within the first 18" of of piping connected tot he water heater.
> 
> so, in my book, and inspectors minds, pex needs to be installed min 18" from the water heater, so I run my 18" water flex, then 18" in thge wall, tie in with pex. I use hard pipe to make the connection ridgid, I perfer work that last many years, not a wobbly hack job coming out of the wall.
> 
> should have just said 18", rather then the way I put it. I added my personal needs


Thats what mine code tells me also, check it out via code link in my signature,.


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## 22rifle

Also for anyone reading this, the amount of heat is relative. Keep in mind that PEX is rated for PRESSURE application at up to 200 degrees. 

I cannot find any reference that PEX actually becomes brittle with exposure to higher heat. It may, but unless the OP can source his claim I tend to be fairly skeptical of such a claim.

Running next to furnace duct is perfectly acceptable and no one should worry about it at all.

Here's what Zurn PEX says:



> Zurn PEX may be connected directly to
> electric water heaters for residential
> plumbing applications. Zurn PEX has brass
> male and female threaded adapters and
> swivel adapters that can be used for this
> application.
> Zurn PEX must be kept at least 6" away
> from the exhaust vent of a gas-fired water
> heater. This is easily accomplished by
> using flexible water heater connectors.
> When the inlet and outlet connections are
> well away from the exhaust vent, such
> as most heaters with side connections,
> Zurn PEX may be connected directly to
> the water heater.


Please note that they allow for direct connection to a water heater. No supply connector needed. Uponor has removed all reference to the 18" requirement from their manual. So unless the code requires it, you may be allowed to connect directly to the water heater.


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## 22rifle

WestCoastPlumber said:


> UPC 604.13.2 WATER HEATER CONNECTIONS
> 
> PEX-AL-PEX OR PE-AL-PE tubing shall not be installed within the first 18" of of piping connected tot he water heater.
> 
> so, in my book, and inspectors minds, pex needs to be installed min 18" from the water heater, so I run my 18" water flex, then 18" in thge wall, tie in with pex. I use hard pipe to make the connection ridgid, I perfer work that last many years, not a wobbly hack job coming out of the wall.
> 
> should have just said 18", rather then the way I put it. I added my personal needs


Gotcha. 

My PEX stub outs aren't wobbly but each to his own.


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## threaderman

I believe pex has a requirement that it cannot be exposed to sunlight for more than 6 months as well.But it's too late to look it up so don't kill me here.And I believe that includes indirect light say ,from windows .


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## 22rifle

All Uponor says on the subject is:



> If you anticipate tubing will be exposed to sunlight for more than
> 30 days, sleeve it to protect against damage.


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## 22rifle

Zurn:



> IMPORTANT – Zurn PEX:
> • should not be stored or installed where it will be exposed to direct or
> indirect ultraviolet light (i.e. sunlight).


Question. Do UV rays fill a room that is lit with sunlight? Or are they only present in the direct rays of the sun?


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## WestCoastPlumber

22rifle said:


> Gotcha.
> 
> My PEX stub outs aren't wobbly but each to his own.


 
As we build a forum friendship here, you will find I can be overkill. but I sleep well at night:thumbsup:

Pex is still not allowed here, unless by variance, until 2009, jan.

I installed alot of it in new mexico, many years back. I like solid connections and would never run it right to a fixture, for sure, not right to a water heater. my own deal. like I said, overkill......


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## Ron

I could be wrong, but I think it has to be direct sunlight, UV rays is what gives you a sunburn, if your in a room with sunlight filled in it, as long as your not directly in it, you won't get a burn, just my theory, so no UV in a indirect way..


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## 22rifle

WestCoastPlumber said:


> As we build a forum friendship here, you will find I can be overkill. but I sleep well at night:thumbsup:
> 
> Pex is still not allowed here, unless by variance, until 2009, jan.
> 
> I installed alot of it in new mexico, many years back. I like solid connections and would never run it right to a fixture, for sure, not right to a water heater. my own deal. like I said, overkill......


I sure wasn't trying to bust on ya. The sleeping well at night is a good point.

Tonight on the way home from the job I was talking to my lovely wife on the phone. I was a bit discouraged and asked her "Why do I think every aspect of every job has to be perfect and overkill? Man, why can't I just be like everyone else out there? Just do a decent job and let it go? But no, not me. I can't leave until it's perfect and until I have gone completely overboard with everything I do."

Her answer? "Because you are the best." Made me feel a bit better.

(I had been running T-Stat wires. I don't like fastening T-Stats to sheetrock so I cut some blocking, screwed it in place, and drilled a hole at the right spot for my wire. Each wire is 60" off the floor and 15 1/2" from the door way or the edge of the wall. Anal ain't I?)

So I completely relate to your statement. I just happen to believe I can make my PEX stub outs adequately solid. I usually use 2 USBs from Sioux Chief for my WH stub outs. One on the vertical about 4" down from the 90 and one on the horizontal where it exits the wall. Squeeze 'em down tight and they are rock solid.


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## thekctermite

22rifle said:


> I appreciate the heads up OP, but please be careful about promulgating incorrect information on here. Not saying you were. I just hate to see bad info given out.


The only bad information I gave was not providing proof that PEX can become brittle after _long-term_ exposure to high heat. Brittle might not be the best descriptor. I'm digging for a disc that has a picture that I took a couple years ago of an installation by a woodburning chimney flue pipe...If I can find it I'll post it. The walls were opened up during a remodel, which presented the photo op. Perhaps "brittle" isn't the best word, but it didn't look good, even though the pipe was still holding water.

Per the _Plastic Pipe and Fittings Association's PEX Installation Handbook_ (www.ppfahome.org), the aforementioned 18" water heater rule is correct. Their handbook also gives the 12" vertical/6" horizontal clearance requirement from sources of heat.


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## 22rifle

thekctermite said:


> The only bad information I gave was not providing proof that PEX can become brittle after _long-term_ exposure to high heat. Brittle might not be the best descriptor. I'm digging for a disc that has a picture that I took a couple years ago of an installation by a woodburning chimney flue pipe...If I can find it I'll post it. The walls were opened up during a remodel, which presented the photo op. Perhaps "brittle" isn't the best word, but it didn't look good, even though the pipe was still holding water.
> 
> Per the _Plastic Pipe and Fittings Association's PEX Installation Handbook_ (www.ppfahome.org), the aforementioned 18" water heater rule is correct. Their handbook also gives the 12" vertical/6" horizontal clearance requirement from sources of heat.


Note that I did not say you gave bad advice. I just warned against it.

Your over all point was very valid. There were some flaws in what you posted. One was the mention of furnaces being a problem, another was your comments were too generalized and incomplete, and the last thing was your claims of it making PEX brittle. 

Hey we all make mistakes so don't sweat it man. All I wanted to do was make sure anyone reading this gets their facts straight.

As far as that industry handbook, that's great. But no inspector better turn down my job because of something said in that book. Ever. It better be in the code book or by extension the manufacturer's instructions. But my job will not be turned down over deviance from a relatively obscure third party's materials with wift consequences.

Having said that, the information in that manual is valuable and we should all take a look at it.

BTW, I never said the 18" rule for water heater connections was not valid. I was only saying that at least one manufacturer took out all references to it and at least one other specifically stated it does not apply.

So if one's local code allows it, and if one is using Zurn PEX, you are allowed to connect PEX directly to the water heater if you wish. Doesn't matter what the PPFA says about it. They have no jurisdiction on the matter.

If I am wrong on anything I post feel free to correct me. This ain't about ego for me. It's about accurate information being promulgated.


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## 22rifle

thekctermite said:


> Per the _Plastic Pipe and Fittings Association's PEX Installation Handbook_ (www.ppfahome.org), the aforementioned 18" water heater rule is correct. Their handbook also gives the 12" vertical/6" horizontal clearance requirement from sources of heat.


BTW, that is a good resource. Thanks for sharing it.


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## thekctermite

22rifle said:


> There were some flaws in what you posted. One was the mention of furnaces being a problem


I didn't say furnaces were a problem. I said _furnace flues_, a source of heat that PEX cannot be installed up against. I simply provided the plastic pipe association handbook as a resource, not a be-all, end-all that would override specific manufacturers' installation guidelines. 

22, I hope you're as comfortable and understanding when someone passive-aggressively nitpicks your every word as you expect everyone else to be.


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## threaderman

That is a good resource,thanks.:thumbsup:


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## 22rifle

thekctermite said:


> I didn't say furnaces were a problem. I said _furnace flues_, a source of heat that PEX cannot be installed up against.


WHOOPS! I screwed up. I read a comma into the OP where there was none. My bad. I am sorry.



thekctermite said:


> I simply provided the plastic pipe association handbook as a resource, not a be-all, end-all that would override specific manufacturers' installation guidelines.


It was thrown in with the other controlling documents with no disclaimer. That's OK. I think I should be able to point out that it isn't and to make my point strongly in case an inspector reading this thread gets any funny ideas.



thekctermite said:


> 22, I hope you're as comfortable and understanding when someone passive-aggressively nitpicks your every word as you expect everyone else to be.


I am sorry I offended you. I really am. That was never my intent. I saw a post with good intent but that could potentially mislead people because of it's incompleteness. Taken piece by piece your post was mostly accurate. Taken as a whole, it had some flaws that needed to be corrected. 

I tried to be careful to make sure I didn't come across as bashing you but I guess I failed at that. I apologize.

I will consider your complaint and try to do better.


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## GrumpyPlumber

*Here in MA we just gotta be different.*
*Plastic pipe has to be a min 24" from, any boiler or water heater.*

*I'm still in pseudo-denial over plastic pipe...I sometimes woner if we're gonna get approved to use radiator hose with clamps sometime soon.*


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## 22rifle

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *I sometimes woner if we're gonna get approved to use radiator hose with clamps sometime soon.*


I think that is on the market as radiant heat tubing.

Not me. Not now. Not ever.


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## thekctermite

22rifle said:


> I am sorry I offended you. I really am. That was never my intent. I saw a post with good intent but that could potentially mislead people because of it's incompleteness. Taken piece by piece your post was mostly accurate. Taken as a whole, it had some flaws that needed to be corrected.
> 
> I tried to be careful to make sure I didn't come across as bashing you but I guess I failed at that. I apologize.
> 
> I will consider your complaint and try to do better.


Thanks for addressing. I don't think you were bashing, but might have been unnecessarily critical. Nothing wrong with adding good information to a productive post to make it better. Either way, it spawned good discussion, which is the benefit of a forum like this. No harm done!


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## Bill

I never install pex directly to a water heater. I have seen some people even use it for the T&P, not me


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## 22rifle

USP45 said:


> I have seen some people even use it for the T&P, not me


Why not?

(I don't either but I want to know your reason.)


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## Bill

The inspectors here always want 3/4 copper, they say if someone fools around by the water heater they could bend the pipe, thus causing scalding if it were to go off. Its a lot harder to bend the copper. Come to think of it, they dont want CPVC either


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## 22rifle

My reason? Looks like crap plus with PEX you get a serious restriction at the fitting.

Does your code disallow CPVC or are your inspectors just making up their own rules?


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## Bill

Probably making up their own as they go. Code is open to interpretation. You know how that goes!


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## 22rifle

USP45 said:


> Probably making up their own as they go. Code is open to interpretation. You know how that goes!


I fought an inspector who played by his own rules. He got a letter of reprimand in his file and is very subdued when he shows up on my jobs.

Everything in the code has an intent and a purpose. No ones gets to arbitrarily make their own rules.

BTW, first thing I did when I entered the meeting with his bosses was let them know I had slipped and said something rude to the inspector. I told them I had apologized and apologized to them for it too. I just told them that I wanted that out of the way right up front.

Later when he accused me of cussing and threatening him they believed me when I denied it. Of course, I had 3 witnesses and when I reminded him of that he right away said maybe he misunderstood me. LOL 

This was the only truly bad inspector I ever met. 

BTW, what I said? Well, one of the things he was railing on me about was the gauge I used to test the DWV lines. It was a 10 pound gauge, with 1/4 pound increments but the only numbers on it were 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10, with the other numbers marked by a larger mark.

Since my test was 5 pounds the needle was on a mark instead of a number. The inspector claimed the gauge was not acceptable because it did not have a number for each pound. "How am I to know what that mark is between the 4 and the 6?"

My reply? (And note, I did not apologize for the truth of the remark, only for making it at an inappropriate time.)

"If you can't read this gauge maybe you should be flipping burgers instead of inspecting my plumbing job."

WHEEEEEE!!!

Like I told his bosses, my comment was dead on but it was unprofessional of me to say it to the inspector.

Another thing he was nailing me on. I sleeved my underground PEX in 3/8" wall insulation. Always do. He said it has to be 1" wall or else I have to get my PEX under the frost line. 

HUH?

I respectfully tried to explain that the pipe was INSIDE the building. That the insulation was only to protect the PEX. Doesn't matter. You either put your pipe under the frost line or put 1" wall insulation on.

Well, outside maybe. But not inside. He refused to bend.

It was priceless to watch his two bosses (head of inspection department and head of building department) ask him if that is really what he was trying to claim. When he said yes they looked at each other, rolled their eyes, and shook their heads.

Told him he was wrong and that they would discuss it further in private.

Back to the gauge. He had then tried to say code required a minimum of a 5" face gauge and liquid filled. They outright rebuked him on the spot when he admitted requiring that of me. On the job he had called his boss and told him the gauge I was using did not have the pounds marked. Of course the boss said that was not acceptable. Well, I tried to get him to be honest with the boss but he refused.

So after he got "spanked" over the "no number, just a mark, between the 4 and the 6" issue he tried to claim that the gauge I was trying to use did not have those marks anyways. I whipped out the gauge right on the spot. He had to admit this was the same gauge he was fussing about. I looked at his bosses and said, "Not only is he incompetant, he is a proven liar too."

His letter of reprimand stated he lied to the boss.

I have zero tolerance for this kind of crap. On CT an inspector was mouthing off how he doesn't allow Studor vents even though the code does allow them. I called his boss and directed her to the thread. He posted an apology later. Yes, that was me. 

My approach is this "We both want it to meet code. Really, we are on the same team. My job is to do it to code and your job is to make sure I did it to code. So if it doesn't meet code you are actually helping me. I think it does meet code, you think it doesn't. Let's not argue, let's find out what the code actually requires. Show me in the code book where it is. If you are right I will back down. But if I am right you will back down. Fair enough?"

When done with respect, this approach has only failed once and that was with the inspector above.


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## Bill

I have done that myself too. I fear no inspector as all they are is a public employee and can be turned in to their boss! Respect them, yes, fear them, no, keep my mouth shut when I know I am right, no.


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## thekctermite

As an inspector I couldn't agree with .22 and USP more. I've worked with a guy that it exactly like the inspector .22 described, and it makes everyones life at the city difficult as well. When on a jobsite I always leave the option open that I could be wrong, and expect the contractor to do the same. That sort of attitude allows for productive investigation of what the code says by both parties, leading to hard and fast decisions.

As inspectors, all we have is our credibility. I like to establish mine by enforcing code, and not letting contractors catch me screwing up or trying to overuse my authority. I don't ask anyone for respect, only professionalism, and they'll get the same in return. I try to earn the contractors' respect by not making up code or coming up with ridiculous calls, but by making solid calls when they need to be made and backing them up with code or manufacturer listing requirements. 

I would suggest always making one last call to the inspector to try to solve a disagreement before calling the boss. Inspectors talk to each other, especially if they work for the same jurisdiction. If a contractor always defers to the Building Official to solve his differences with the inspector, it will create a good amount of animosity against that builder in that department. I know a lot of builders that circumvent professional discussion with the inspector and run crying to the boss, and I keep that in mind when dealing with them...I could care less if someone calls my boss because I'm not out in the field doing anything that would be looked down on by my supervisor. I'll remember that lack of professionalism on the next inspection, and will make sure I do a VERY professional, thorough inspection, if you get my drift.

.22, for the record, I think you were 100% justified in calling that inspector's supervisor. He needed it. I've suggested that builders contact the supervisor when dealing with the inspector that I know that is like that. You just can't deal with some people!


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## Bill

here we dont have too awful lot of problem inspectors. now get out towards Richmond, and especially around Chesterfield, VA well...............


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## GrumpyPlumber

*My biggest problem with the inspectors I know is down time...for some reason when I get an inspection, a simple 15 minute inspection turns into a 1 hour yackfest.*

*I think I talk too much or something, but heck...they talk back.*

*Seriously, I pick the brain of every inspector I know...they get all the latest code info and damned straight I want in on it..not to mention I have yet to have a problem with one, they're mostly semi-retired workin' folks like us, great conversation.*


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## thekctermite

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *My biggest problem with the inspectors I know is down time...for some reason when I get an inspection, a simple 15 minute inspection turns into a 1 hour yackfest.*
> 
> *I think I talk too much or something, but heck...they talk back.*
> 
> *Seriously, I pick the brain of every inspector I know...they get all the latest code info and damned straight I want in on it..not to mention I have yet to have a problem with one, they're mostly semi-retired workin' folks like us, great conversation.*


I wish I were semi-retired. I've got about 32 more years before that happens.  But, I can waste mine and someone else's time talking fishing, hunting, etc...!


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## Bill

thekctermite said:


> I wish I were semi-retired. I've got about 32 more years before that happens.


dont push it. The time will come oh too soon


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## Kyle

good ol manufacture spec's pretty much best to go with.


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## Protech

22rifle said:


> Zurn:
> 
> 
> 
> Question. Do UV rays fill a room that is lit with sunlight? Or are they only present in the direct rays of the sun?





Ron The Plumber said:


> I could be wrong, but I think it has to be direct sunlight, UV rays is what gives you a sunburn, if your in a room with sunlight filled in it, as long as your not directly in it, you won't get a burn, just my theory, so no UV in a indirect way..


 
The answer is very complex.

UV is a range of the entire electromagnetic spectrum. Like visible light and Infra red light, UV can be reflected off of surfaces. In the same way that some surfaces can reflect different frequencies of visible light (this is what make things different colors) and IR radiation, some surfaces are better than others at reflecting UV light. Some types of glass can permit UV to pass thru and some do not. There are 2 types of radiation that come from the sky: Direct (clear sky) and diffuse (sun obscured by clouds).
To further complicate things you have what's known as "Albido" radiation, or in laymen’s terms "reflected". 

If you install pex in a garage and the sun is not hitting it directly, it is still receiving some amount of UV in the form of albido radiation. If you install pex on the north wall of a small utility room and light is hitting it directly thru a south facing window, some amount of UV is hitting the pex. The amount depends on the type of glass. Even if the glass has a solar coating that reflects most of the UV, you also have to ask your self how often that window will be open?

Diffuse and albedo radiation are less intense than direct, but unlike your skin, the pex does not heal its’ self when exposed. Small doses over time will have effects. Scary stuff. BTW, please do not read this as pex bashing as I currently use more of it than any other type of pipe. I have installed many miles of the stuff. I'm just calling it like I see it.



22rifle said:


> Also for anyone reading this, the amount of heat is relative. Keep in mind that PEX is rated for PRESSURE application at up to 200 degrees.
> 
> I cannot find any reference that PEX actually becomes brittle with exposure to higher heat. It may, but unless the OP can source his claim I tend to be fairly skeptical of such a claim.
> 
> Running next to furnace duct is perfectly acceptable and no one should worry about it at all.
> 
> Here's what Zurn PEX says:
> 
> 
> 
> Please note that they allow for direct connection to a water heater. No supply connector needed. Uponor has removed all reference to the 18" requirement from their manual. So unless the code requires it, you may be allowed to connect directly to the water heater.


 
I agree that running pex directly to an electric heater is ok. I disagree that running it next to furnace ducts and flue pipes is ok. I have personally seen it pop from overheating by flue pipes. Furthermore, there have been a few studies done that confirm pex's life span is severely shortened when exposed to temperatures north of about 250F. I don't have any of those studies handy but I think I can track them down for ya. It does become brittle with time when over heated.


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## Protech

Here is another monkey wrench I feel needs throwing in.

Different types of pex and pex composites have different resistances to UV. You've got types pex: A(Engle), B(saline), C(radiated). Then you have your composites: Kitec(pex-al-pex), Fostapex(pex-al-pex), Flowguard Flex(pex w/ other layers of polymers), Superpex(uv stabilizers such as lamp black) and others. Finally, the different connection systems for all of those to consider.

Is anyone’s head spinning yet?:laughing:


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## Proud Plumber

:confused1:


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## Marlin

USP45 said:


> I have done that myself too. I fear no inspector as all they are is a public employee and can be turned in to their boss! Respect them, yes, fear them, no, keep my mouth shut when I know I am right, no.


I'm afraid of the fire inspector. They carry guns and can arrest you for violations.


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## Marlin

Protech said:


> Here is another monkey wrench I feel needs throwing in.
> 
> Different types of pex and pex composites have different resistances to UV. You've got types pex: A(Engle), B(saline), C(radiated). Then you have your composites: Kitec(pex-al-pex), Fostapex(pex-al-pex), Flowguard Flex(pex w/ other layers of polymers), Superpex(uv stabilizers such as lamp black) and others. Finally, the different connection systems for all of those to consider.
> 
> Is anyone’s head spinning yet?:laughing:


Yup. Who are you, Super Pex Man?


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## pzmember

threaderman said:


> I believe pex has a requirement that it cannot be exposed to sunlight for more than 6 months as well.But it's too late to look it up so don't kill me here.And I believe that includes indirect light say ,from windows .


 

uponor says no more than 30 days of direct exposure to uv rays


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## Protech

<----------yep:yes:



Marlin said:


> Yup. Who are you, Super Pex Man?


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## Proud Plumber

:thumbup:Thats funny, I will try to find you a more appropriate avatar than Sponge Bob. No wait, post your super suit pic, Super Pex man.... it's perfect.


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## Redwood

You mean this might be a bad PEX installation...










:laughing:


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## Plumberman

Redwood said:


> You mean this might be a bad PEX installation...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :laughing:


Looks likes electricians ran that!


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## uaplumber

Aww heck, thats just a secondary heat source.


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## Plumberman

uaplumber said:


> Aww heck, thats just a secondary heat source.


 Damn I didnt even see the light bulb.... haha


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## Redwood

It's actually an electric tankless water heater...:laughing:


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## leaks

What a hack


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## Protech

Ahhhh that's an easy fix. Just replace the bulb with a cool running compact fluorescent:whistling2:


Plumberman said:


> Looks likes electricians ran that!


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## brain freeze

we have pex up here.

it's starting to sound too complicated with all the restrictions.

i'm a little old school i guess.

i have noticed that the turbidity/suspended matter starts to coat the inside of the pex. it makes the plastic tubing look dirty.

i guess i'm leery of it because of the cpvc plastic tubing that came out a number of years ago. now it's not being used, there's no parts available and it makes repairs difficult or overly time consuming.

i think the thing that annoys me the most is that pex and cpvc are different sizes. the two can't be used together. maybe there's an adapter out there, but for now, i'll stick to copper.

Vince


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## Protech

I don't even know where to begin.......


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## ToUtahNow

Vince,

That brings up a good question. How far is the closest supply house to you and what do you do when you need special parts?

Mark


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## Protech

:confused1: 
Since when can you not get "parts" for cpvc? I'm not aware of any plumbing supply house or hardware store that *doesn't* carry every cpvc fitting known to man.

Cpvc and pex are the same sizes. They are both c.t.s. There are more adaptors out there than I care to list and if you're not into transition fittings than you could always use a male/female i.p.s. adapter combination to change over. 

Are you sure you're a plumber???

"it's starting to sound too complicated with all the restrictions."

I know, they should make plumbing easier so know knowledge and experience isn't required.



brain freeze said:


> we have pex up here.
> 
> it's starting to sound too complicated with all the restrictions.
> 
> i'm a little old school i guess.
> 
> i have noticed that the turbidity/suspended matter starts to coat the inside of the pex. it makes the plastic tubing look dirty.
> 
> i guess i'm leery of it because of the cpvc plastic tubing that came out a number of years ago. now it's not being used, there's no parts available and it makes repairs difficult or overly time consuming.
> 
> i think the thing that annoys me the most is that pex and cpvc are different sizes. the two can't be used together. maybe there's an adapter out there, but for now, i'll stick to copper.
> 
> Vince


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## Marlin

Protech said:


> :confused1:
> Since when can you not get "parts" for cpvc? I'm not aware of any plumbing supply house or hardware store that *doesn't* carry every cpvc fitting known to man.


Around here they don't stock very much in the way of CPVC. They will have whatever you want the next day, or that day if you call early enough though. Pex, they pretty much have a full line of the SS crimp style up to 1". Bigger then that is special order.


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## brain freeze

ToUtahNow said:


> Vince,
> 
> That brings up a good question. How far is the closest supply house to you and what do you do when you need special parts?
> 
> Mark


for the basic stuff we have a 2 hardware stores.

we have 1 supplier dedicated to plumbing and heating.

we have one more plumbing supplier up here but they won't sell to you if you work for the competition.:blink:

anything specialized comes from winnipeg (1500 miles south). thankfully, with the internet many, many doors have opened for us up here. the world is at our finger tips.

it's a huge learning curve up here because the technology that's used and applied down south doesn't mean it will work here.

for instance, the PEHD pipe that's in the ground here wasn't originally designed for underground use.

it's working so we use it. tough stuff.

Vince


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## ToUtahNow

brain freeze said:


> for the basic stuff we have a 2 hardware stores.
> 
> we have 1 supplier dedicated to plumbing and heating.
> 
> we have one more plumbing supplier up here but they won't sell to you if you work for the competition.:blink:
> 
> anything specialized comes from winnipeg (1500 miles south). thankfully, with the internet many, many doors have opened for us up here. the world is at our finger tips.
> 
> it's a huge learning curve up here because the technology that's used and applied down south doesn't mean it will work here.
> 
> for instance, the PEHD pipe that's in the ground here wasn't originally designed for underground use.
> 
> it's working so we use it. tough stuff.
> 
> Vince


 
I figured it would be a little tougher than driving down to the supply house around the corner. I cannot imagine doing plumbing in those type of temperatures. We've all had water lines freeze but I imagine you see frozen sewer lines as well. Do you guys try to go below a frost line or do you try to protect it in some other way?

As for the Internet it has helped so many people interact with the real world. One year while I was in Anchorage waiting for a float plane I stopped in a store to pick up some supplies. A women's credit card was denied and she told the clerk it was because it takes 28-days for mail to be delivered to her home in the Aleutian Islands and back to the credit card company. Today not only can she pay online but I've seen where Sam's Club has a float plane delivery service (sub) so she can shop/order/pay/get delivery online.

Mark


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## uaplumber

I hear ya about getting parts. When in Afghanistan I had to wait 6 months for parts! Now I can just drive an hour into Edmonton or get them shipped. Seems to work better


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## brain freeze

i'm sorry protech.

i thought i saw a reply form you but i was in a hurry, i had to go finish up this checkvalve replacement.

what was your question again?

Vince:w00t:


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## Protech

Fair enough.


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## brain freeze

toutahnow,

permafrost. out on the land it thaws down to about a foot during the heat of summer.

in town the ground thaws over the mains to about a foot or two below it.

below, it just frozen. winter time everything is frozen. frozen. jack hammer frozen. takes a week of full days to steam down 6 feet frozen.

we insulate our service pipes. also both have heat trace to thaw in the *likely* event the services freeze.

jetters work very well up her but you have to take great care when transporting. you can't just put it in the back of a truck and drive to the job. even though it would 5 or 10 minutes to get there, it'll freeze and break that nice expensive piston pump.

we use a two line water service with a circ pump to keep things going when there is no demand. the water mains are also circulated back to the pumphouse.

sewer mains are kept running during the coldest months of the year with bleeders.

the biggest problem up here is during the fall freeze up the pipes are subject to tremendous pressure from both top and bottom. this can cause sewer mains to collapse and saddles to move.

all fire hydrants are connected to the water main in access vaults. the water temperature in the main is high enough to keep the hydrant frost/ice free.

Vince


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## ToUtahNow

Sorry Vince I did not mean to get off topic but I'm always interested in how others handle their regional condition. I figure anyone can do plumbing down here compared to what you have to put up with. Today was a nice cool day here and you were 55 degrees Fahrenheit colder where you are. I've spent a bit of time in Fairbanks which is about as far North as I have been and I must say at 40 degrees Fahrenheit below zero I would not feel much like working.

Mark


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## brain freeze

ToUtahNow said:


> Sorry Vince I did not mean to get off topic but I'm always interested in how others handle their regional condition. I figure anyone can do plumbing down here compared to what you have to put up with. Today was a nice cool day here and you were 55 degrees Fahrenheit colder where you are. I've spent a bit of time in Fairbanks which is about as far North as I have been and I must say at 40 degrees Fahrenheit below zero I would not feel much like working.
> 
> Mark


no appology needed mark. i enjoy informing people about where i live. i've been fortunate, i've lived in both worlds.

it seems that -37 degrees is the magic number. it's bearable. below that, it's frigid.

square tire syndrome frigid. block heater, battery blanket, inline circ pump heater frigid. warm up the power steering and tranmission fluid before you drive frigid.

before synthetic lubricants, some people would add a little diesel fuel to the power steering fluid to prevent blowing the hoses.

if you get 10 years out of a vehicle up here, you've done good.

Vince

it gets colder than cold up here, and we like it that way.:thumbup:


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## Protech

F-that. Florida cracker for life! Got down to 45F the other night and I was already crying for spring.


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## Proud Plumber

Protech said:


> F-that. Florida cracker for life! Got down to 45F the other night and I was already crying for spring.


Amen brother, amen..... Tank tops and flip flops. I would be devastated if I had to live in the cold again. Been here since '85 and I aint leaving.


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## brain freeze

in '98 when i lived in montreal, during the heat of the summer it hit +41.2 degrees c (106.16 degrees f) with the humidity.

i literally thought i was going to die.

i don't know how you guys can take that kind of heat.

*give me ice and snow.*
*give me clean water and cold air.*
*hopefully that bear will stay over there.*

Vince


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## uaplumber

Fun part of living in the north, changing out split non-freeze wall:laughing: hydrants every spring.


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## gusty60

brain freeze said:


> in '98 when i lived in montreal, during the heat of the summer it hit +41.2 degrees c (106.16 degrees f) with the humidity.
> 
> i literally thought i was going to die.
> 
> i don't know how you guys can take that kind of heat.
> 
> *give me ice and snow.*
> *give me clean water and cold air.*
> *hopefully that bear will stay over there.*
> 
> Vince


106 F is a cool day in Phoenix!


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## brain freeze

gusty60 said:


> 106 F is a cool day in Phoenix!


106 f is halfway to boiling water.

people from the south say "i wouldn't be able to survive in the arctic".

we northeners say the same thing about you guys.

too hot!! :sweatdrop: :sweatdrop: :sweatdrop:


Vince

i don't think you wanna be around if the seal skins get that hot:laughing:


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## Redwood

Personally I could settle for year round temps on the 65 - 75 range.

I'd be willing to travel a long distance to experience anything else...:thumbup:


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## Proud Plumber

brain freeze said:


> 106 f is halfway to boiling water.
> 
> people from the south say "i wouldn't be able to survive in the arctic".
> 
> we northeners say the same thing about you guys.
> 
> too hot!! :sweatdrop: :sweatdrop: :sweatdrop:
> 
> 
> Vince
> 
> i don't think you wanna be around if the seal skins get that hot:laughing:


I have been working in Everglades City, FL on and off through out the summer on a small 14 room hotel remodel where they gutted the interior of the building but left the exterior alone along with the windows. I thought I had worked on hot projects until this one. I spent a great deal of time working in attics here in FL repiping this felt like an attic all day. I went through a 12 of gatoraid every day. Believe it or not after sweating like that you actually feel good at the end of the day. 

I tried working at night but the mosquitoes in the everglades do not take to kindly to fresh meat working at night. Sort of like a man VS wild version of deliverance.


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## brain freeze

Proud Plumber said:


> I have been working in Everglades City, FL on and off through out the summer on a small 14 room hotel remodel where they gutted the interior of the building but left the exterior alone along with the windows. I thought I had worked on hot projects until this one. I spent a great deal of time working in attics here in FL repiping this felt like an attic all day. I went through a 12 of gatoraid every day. Believe it or not after sweating like that you actually feel good at the end of the day.
> 
> I tried working at night but the mosquitoes in the everglades do not take to kindly to fresh meat working at night. Sort of like a man VS wild version of deliverance.


the mosquitoes up here have been known to make a grown man cry. i heard the stories.

they can be so thick they'll drive half crazy.

the bees have to have permission to land.:laughing:

Vince

i certainly tip my hat to you guys. met this inuit guy that moved back up here from new zealand. he told me it took him 2 years to get used to the heat.


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## brain freeze

Redwood said:


> Personally I could settle for year round temps on the 65 - 75 range.
> 
> I'd be willing to travel a long distance to experience anything else...:thumbup:


"experience" being the operative word.

Vince


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## Redwood

One thing I will say is I'd rather see cold than hot...
You can always layer on more clothes to stay warm...
But when you're as close to neckid as you can be without being arrested for it and you still sweating you  off...
It's to damn hot!

I remember when *U*ncle *S*am's *A*ir *F*actory sent us up to the frozen north to see how well we could fix jets... We learned a bunch of things like lighting gas soaked rags on the box under the carburetors to pre heat them so the motors would start...

Sheesh!
I take what I said back...
Thats too damn cold!


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## brain freeze

Protech said:


> Here is another monkey wrench I feel needs throwing in.
> 
> Different types of pex and pex composites have different resistances to UV. You've got types pex: A(Engle), B(saline), C(radiated). Then you have your composites: Kitec(pex-al-pex), Fostapex(pex-al-pex), Flowguard Flex(pex w/ other layers of polymers), Superpex(uv stabilizers such as lamp black) and others. Finally, the different connection systems for all of those to consider.
> 
> Is anyone’s head spinning yet?:laughing:


*mine would be if it wasn't frozen.*:laughing:

protech,

you seem to be well versed regarding pex.

just out of curiousity, to *protech* againest uv associated break down of the plastic, have you ever used aluminum foil tape? the same kind used on flue pipes.

Vince


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## Protech

I try not to install pex in exposed locations. If I do, I use Armaflex with a UV resistant paint over it. I've never used aluminum tape. I worry about it coming off but I don't have any experience proving that it does. I considering using pex-al-pex composite but I hate to have to stock another line of pipe, fittings, rings and crimpers.



brain freeze said:


> *mine would be if it wasn't frozen.*:laughing:
> 
> protech,
> 
> you seem to be well versed regarding pex.
> 
> just out of curiousity, to *protech* againest uv associated break down of the plastic, have you ever used aluminum foil tape? the same kind used on flue pipes.
> 
> Vince


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## IrishPlumber

On the Pex pipes here its printed on the pipe not to connect directly to the heat source. A 1m distance is advised. I have seen crazy installations with the stuff flopping all over the place once its heated up. Another favorite is installations with out the use of inserts for the fittings, after it heats up without the use of an insert the compression ring expands with the pipe and once it cools off a leak can occur, the process takes some time but I've witnessed it. 

I personally don't like the stuff, looks bad and hard to keep straight for a neat looking installation, even though its mostly covered up it still bugs me to see. Also if your not careful and maybe you rushed you apprentice, sometimes the pipes dragged off walls and it creates small scores which cause leaks on both compression and push fit fittings. The stuffs just messy.


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## Green Country

I've been told, but never read anywhere, that adhesives in tape will eventually break the pex down. An inspector told us in a CE class



brain freeze said:


> *mine would be if it wasn't frozen.*:laughing:
> 
> protech,
> 
> you seem to be well versed regarding pex.
> 
> just out of curiousity, to *protech* againest uv associated break down of the plastic, have you ever used aluminum foil tape? the same kind used on flue pipes.
> 
> Vince


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## markb

threaderman said:


> I believe pex has a requirement that it cannot be exposed to sunlight for more than 6 months as well.But it's too late to look it up so don't kill me here.And I believe that includes indirect light say ,from windows .



I was taught in school that a little known fact about PEX is when exposed to direct, and indirect, UV rays the plastics not only harden but _also enters into the water supply_. Also told that this can happen after a relatively short period of UV exposure. Anyone else heard about something similar?


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## Protech

I think what you mean is that the UV destroys the anti-oxidants in the resin which in turn allows the chlorine to oxidize the pex and de-polymerize it releasing ethylene slowly into the water.


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## Christina

*Our experience with PEX on a gas water heater.*



Protech said:


> I think what you mean is that the UV destroys the anti-oxidants in the resin which in turn allows the chlorine to oxidize the pex and de-polymerize it releasing ethylene slowly into the water.


Had a guy working for us that installed PEX directly to the water heater. This will work without a problem being that it has the correct heat rating to withstand the heat from the water heater... HOWEVER!! The vent he leaned his PEX against was undoubtedly melting point for the PEX tubing. Not highly recommended to ((LOOP)) PEX directly to the NG/ LP water heater. Another one of those, if you want it done right, do it yourself!

The End.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

This thread, all of its content, very disturbing.

We are talking about chemicals leaching right into the water. CPVC is notorious for heavy metals introduced into the water supply.


Ever notice that these bottles of water at stores have a plastic taste to them? 

Those bottles are stamped with a triangle at the bottom, the higher the number the worse it is.

Curious to know what the triangle stamp would be on PEX, knowing the age consideration, the times that water sits in the lines due to non-use...the list just grows from a million scenarios that can play out like the muppets beating garbage can lids. :laughing:


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## stillaround

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> This thread, all of its content, very disturbing.
> 
> We are talking about chemicals leaching right into the water. CPVC is notorious for heavy metals introduced into the water supply.
> 
> 
> Ever notice that these bottles of water at stores have a plastic taste to them?
> 
> :laughing:


Yes plastic bottles could start one thinking. I dont know what evidence you have concerning cpvc or pex or pvc. Solvents will absorb through cpvc and pvc and its a good idea not to change your oil over a 12" deep water service. Health threats are not systematicly or conspiritorily being hushed up. Is there a source or study that got you going on this. What heavy metals and where .


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## Protech

The number in the triangle is a plastic code that is used to sort out the types of plastics at the recycling plant. You do realize that right?



DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> This thread, all of its content, very disturbing.
> 
> We are talking about chemicals leaching right into the water. CPVC is notorious for heavy metals introduced into the water supply.
> 
> 
> Ever notice that these bottles of water at stores have a plastic taste to them?
> 
> Those bottles are stamped with a triangle at the bottom, the higher the number the worse it is.
> 
> Curious to know what the triangle stamp would be on PEX, knowing the age consideration, the times that water sits in the lines due to non-use...the list just grows from a million scenarios that can play out like the muppets beating garbage can lids. :laughing:


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## Protech

Really? Care to back that up with something?

I'm not a fan of cpvc as many of you know but that won't stop me from raising the BS flag on this.



DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> This thread, all of its content, very disturbing.
> 
> We are talking about chemicals leaching right into the water. CPVC is notorious for heavy metals introduced into the water supply.
> 
> 
> Ever notice that these bottles of water at stores have a plastic taste to them?
> 
> Those bottles are stamped with a triangle at the bottom, the higher the number the worse it is.
> 
> Curious to know what the triangle stamp would be on PEX, knowing the age consideration, the times that water sits in the lines due to non-use...the list just grows from a million scenarios that can play out like the muppets beating garbage can lids. :laughing:


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## user823

Did I mention I love using Pex, Viega and now Uponor again? I love my new Uponor pex gun, it even auto rotates for me! I don't think I can go a day without pexing something.:thumbup:

Today I did a complete repipe, two bath home. Did it all with the Uponor this time and ripped out the old copper:thumbsup:, took a little longer using the gun but my arms don't hurt at the end of the day either from crimping the Viega. 

Zero leaks on my Uponor fittings, TWO leaks from the brass Uponor sweat x pex fittings. What a crock of sh*t I thought. It seems the brass slip fitting are very loose and they're not soldering well, I don't know. Called Uponor on it, they of course haven't heard of problems with their brass. I think there is an obvious problems with the BRASS!


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## RollinSoLo

WestCoastPlumber said:


> UPC 604.13.2 WATER HEATER CONNECTIONS
> 
> PEX-AL-PEX OR PE-AL-PE tubing shall not be installed within the first 18" of of piping connected tot he water heater.
> 
> so, in my book, and inspectors minds, pex needs to be installed min 18" from the water heater, so I run my 18" water flex, then 18" in thge wall, tie in with pex. I use hard pipe to make the connection ridgid, I perfer work that last many years, not a wobbly hack job coming out of the wall.
> 
> should have just said 18", rather then the way I put it. I added my personal needs


It is true you are not allowed to put PEX"AL" and pe"al"pe that close.However this is a specific type of pex, such as viega pex,zern,wirsbo,pexal and pe al pe. Now the code speceficly mentions the two manufactures of pex pipe. NOT All pex pipe. 
There is nothing wrong with piping it in copper 18inches however it is not required by code and that is just your personal preference.


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## TheSkinnyGuy

Protech said:


> Really? Care to back that up with something?
> 
> I'm not a fan of cpvc as many of you know but that won't stop me from raising the BS flag on this.


I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that copper in FL isn't all that much safer? not with yalls water quality down there...


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## Protech

Actually most of our water is alkaline so metallic leaching isn't usually a problem. We do tend to chlorinate the heck out of it though because of all the bugs in our water. The chlorine does not get along well with flux residue on copper.

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to back that up dunbar.................:whistling2:



TheSkinnyGuy said:


> I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that copper in FL isn't all that much safer? not with yalls water quality down there...


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