# Easy C/O intall make me pay, damn!!



## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

I had a clean out to install this morning. After the C/O install i was going to attempt to clear the massively root impacted line. I should have known that i was doomed when we had the line dug up and ready to go by 10 am. I located the line within an inch at a 6 foot depth and we didn't even hit any sprinkler lines. 








my buddy running the mini-ex








new C/O installed at about 5'9" deep
This is when things went sour. While attempting to clear the line, after about 45 minutes of work and pulling roots back each time, my mainline machine ate it's motor. No big deal, get the other machine and keep going. Pulling roots back for another half hour and i snap the leader deal in the drum. Damn!! Not to mention it's bound up good. At this point we figure we should back fill the hole and we can get a bit closer to the new C/O to pull it back, maybe even yank on it with the bucket of the excavator. Fire up the mini-ex and the bucket won't move at all. After 90 minutes the ex is working again thanks to the mechanic from the rental place. It's now 4pm and we thought we would be done my 1 when things were going smoothly in the morning. Back-fill the hole and after another 5 or 6 trips down the line with the cable the line is open wider than it's been for 5 or 6 years and flowing well. The customer is thrilled and set up for 6 mo. mainline cleanings until he wants to dig up another section. I'm beat up and sun-burnt.





paul


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Rock, i have days like that every once and a while. Hoo rahh. for getting it done.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Any particular reason why abs was used and not pvc? Sounds like a real fun day.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

house plumber said:


> Any particular reason why abs was used and not pvc? Sounds like a real fun day.


 
most everything here is done in ABS and it's what i stock on the truck. no other reason really besides convenience.



paul


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Please tell me that my eyes are playing tricks on me and that is not a 3" c.o. tied into 4" pipe.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I dont see how you coulda worked in such a small area...Kudos to you man...I'm too big to fit down in that one.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

is it true that the glue joints break years down the road? That's what I've always heard. That's why I wondered about not using pvc. I didn't think anyone used abs anymore.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> Please tell me that my eyes are playing tricks on me and that is not a 3" c.o. tied into 4" pipe.


 
no, it's all 4" abs tied into 4" clay. after looking at the pics, it does look small though.




paul


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

smellslike$tome said:


> Please tell me that my eyes are playing tricks on me and that is not a 3" c.o. tied into 4" pipe.


 looks like 4" clay to 4" plastic to me....maybe the abs is throwing you


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> Please tell me that my eyes are playing tricks on me and that is not a 3" c.o. tied into 4" pipe.


That's 4"


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

smellslike$tome said:


> Please tell me that my eyes are playing tricks on me and that is not a 3" c.o. tied into 4" pipe.


Looks like 4" abs tied to 4" clay to me.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

We use ABS here all the time, so it is not true what you have heard.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

If installed correctly and in the operating conditions it's designed for abs will last just as long as pvc.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> If installed correctly and in the operating conditions it's designed for abs will last just as long as pvc.


 Everytime i come across it the joints are falling apart and its always under a mobile home. Boy what fun....Trailers with crap under them.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

there was a time when the abs would crack just at the glue joints. i find that pipe in houses that are about 25 years old. it's some wierd reaction to the glue i think, mostly cracks just under the santee on kitchen and lav. drains. i haven't seen any problems with "modern" abs.




paul


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Everytime i come across it the joints are falling apart and its always under a mobile home. Boy what fun....Trailers with crap under them.


Yeah that's what i'm talking about. I saw it on the news years ago and I believe they were talking about houses in Cal. Something in the glue breaks down the pipe,(just like everything else) and all these houses had huge piles of waste in the basements or crawl spaces. Then I believe they were talking about a big lawsuit like with the poly fittings. Plus I've heard it from different plumbers


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

ABS is what is used here most of the time and it holds up real well. just don't lay it on your truck in the sun or you have bowed pipe. The only time i see that ABS pipe cracked is when the pipe has tension on it from the ground heaving.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

does the modern abs weld itself back together as youre cutting it with a sawzall or cable saw like the old stuff did?


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

house plumber said:


> does the modern abs weld itself back together as youre cutting it with a sawzall or cable saw like the old stuff did?


 
yup! not so great on the chop saw. 






paul


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Yea, If you use a fine bladed saw on your sawzall it will melt, if using a sawzall its better to use a wood blade. I use pipe cutter unless i can't get it around the old stuff i need to cut.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Another question for you. I've noticed that Cal uses combo's for clean outs instead of two way tee's. Is that code there? The only way we can use combo's is we would have to use 2 of them to go in each direction. And place them so there wouldn't be a spot between them that you couldn't snake.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

house plumber said:


> Another question for you. I've noticed that Cal uses combo's for clean outs instead of two way tee's. Is that code there? The only way we can use combo's is we would have to use 2 of them to go in each direction. And place them so there wouldn't be a spot between them that you couldn't snake.


Back to back combos are against code here. Two way clean out just outside the foundation and directional every 100' or 135 degree of turns.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Back to back combos are against code here. Two way clean out just outside the foundation and directional every 100' or 135 degree of turns.


Back to back combos here if the depth is over 2 ft. The reason for that is, have you ever tried to stick a cable down a line with a two way cleanout full of brown liquid that is 3 or 4 ft deep and hope the hell you are going down stream to the clog. Makes sense to me. what the hell is going on in oregon?


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Back to back combos here if the depth is over 2 ft. The reason for that is, have you ever tried to stick a cable down a line with a two way cleanout full of brown liquid that is 3 or 4 ft deep and hope the hell you are going down stream to the clog. Makes sense to me. what the hell is going on in oregon?


 
YES! if there wasn't an existing cleanout 75' away, i would have installed 2 combo's. I absolutely hate 2 way cleanout tee's.  when i hear "back to back combo's" i picture them pointing in opposite directions, is that how you guys install them? i usually install 2 combo's facing eachother. the one closest to the street goes back to the house and the one nearest the house, serves the line towards the street. 





paul


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

rocksteady said:


> YES! if there wasn't an existing cleanout 75' away, i would have installed 2 combo's. I absolutely hate 2 way cleanout tee's.  when i hear "back to back combo's" i picture them pointing in opposite directions, is that how you guys install them? i usually install 2 combo's facing eachother. the one closest to the street goes back to the house and the one nearest the house, serves the line towards the street.
> 
> paul


yep, thats how we do it, Its code here, and a good code for a change from a service stand point, I dont see how and the hell they would want it any other way.:thumbsup:


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

o.k. good. i've seen them installed the other way :no:. no way to clean between them but they take up less space in the flowerbed i guess. :stupid:






paul


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Back to back combos here if the depth is over 2 ft. The reason for that is, have you ever tried to stick a cable down a line with a two way cleanout full of brown liquid that is 3 or 4 ft deep and hope the hell you are going down stream to the clog. Makes sense to me. what the hell is going on in oregon?


All we use is a flat tee for out clean outs. I never had a problem getting my rod to go in the right direction when it was full of muck. Now as for the mission couplings used, here it is code to use the shielded couplings for the connection.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Back to back combos here if the depth is over 2 ft. The reason for that is, have you ever tried to stick a cable down a line with a two way cleanout full of brown liquid that is 3 or 4 ft deep and hope the hell you are going down stream to the clog. Makes sense to me. what the hell is going on in oregon?



A slight crock on the end, dropping the head to it's depth, pointed it the direction you want it to go, and a good push before you fire up the machine was always how I could get cable to go the way I wanted, also you can pretty much tell which way you are heading by the way the cable pushes against the side of the clean out riser. :thumbsup:

One more trick, the use of a v-bar after the plunge can tell you what way your heading, slide v-bar into clean out to determine your dirction of travel.

Most clean outs here bottom out within 2' of grade.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

most cleanouts here are 6-7 feet. We use double combos pointing at each other.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Plumber Jim said:


> most cleanouts here are 6-7 feet. We use double combos pointing at each other.


 I failed to mention our clean outs are anywhere from 3 to 12 feet deep.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

a service guy at our shop had a good idea for deep 2 way c/o's. he said he had a piece of 2" with a 45 glued on the end. He would push the cable through the 2" and put whatever head on when it came out the 45. That way he could control what way he wanted to go on the deep ones.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

house plumber said:


> a service guy at our shop had a good idea for deep 2 way c/o's. he said he had a piece of 2" with a 45 glued on the end. He would push the cable through the 2" and put whatever head on when it came out the 45. That way he could control what way he wanted to go on the deep ones.


 Thats a damn good idea and it works too. I broke my bowl auger one day and used the same set up with 1.5" pvc through a toilet with a small hand machine. On deep cleanouts I've also tied a piece of mason twine to the bit and as it reaches the bottom i pull up on the string to get the cable to bend in the right direction.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> A slight crock on the end, dropping the head to it's depth, pointed it the direction you want it to go, and a good push before you fire up the machine was always how I could get cable to go the way I wanted, also you can pretty much tell which way you are heading by the way the cable pushes against the side of the clean out riser. :thumbsup:
> 
> One more trick, the use of a v-bar after the plunge can tell you what way your heading, slide v-bar into clean out to determine your dirction of travel.
> 
> Most clean outs here bottom out within 2' of grade.


What the hell is a V-bar. Do you have a pic of one. And far the rest of yous, those are great ideas, but, two combos could eliminate all that. thaz alls im sayins.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> What the hell is a V-bar. Do you have a pic of one. And far the rest of yous, those are great ideas, but, two combos could eliminate all that. thaz alls im sayins.


 Cleanouts properly spaced from the beginning of the drain to the end drain will also work properly.:thumbsup:


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

I agree with you RSP. Of course being new construction I think I've only snaked 3 sewers. And that's 3 too many.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> What the hell is a V-bar. Do you have a pic of one. And far the rest of yous, those are great ideas, but, two combos could eliminate all that. thaz alls im sayins.


 
i do them much like ron mentioned but i have this spoon-like thing that does what his "v-bar" does. it's basically just a long piece of 3/8" round bar with a spoon-ish end on it. you can guide the cutter pretty easily but double cleanouts are sooooo much nicer. the best thing about them is you know what's going on before you even pull the caps. 

there's a house in town here that some joker installed a 2-way cleanout on but he put it under a walkway and rolled it at a 45 to get it into the flowerbed. then he put a 45 on it and poked it up vertical. if you didn't know, there's no way you would suspect it was a 2 way and you'd blow up a toilet for sure. :furious:







paul


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Speaking of blowing up toilets, we had hot wings and burritos tonight.!!!


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> What the hell is a V-bar. Do you have a pic of one. And far the rest of yous, those are great ideas, but, two combos could eliminate all that. thaz alls im sayins.


OK well maybe it is not really called that but that is what I call it, it is called a bent edge vertical line post.

Sure back to back combos can work but there not allowed here.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> OK well maybe it is not really called that but that is what I call it, it is called a bent edge vertical line post.
> 
> Sure back to back combos can work but there not allowed here.


Okay, theres one of those holding up the stop sign at the end of the street. Time to whip out the ol cordless saw zaw.:laughing: Then, if none of you guys want the stop sign, ill post it on craigslist.:laughing:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Is there some kind of legitimate reason for that Ron? or did someone just think it sounded like a cool rule?

I install a 2 way if it's shallow. If it's deep I install 2 combos aimed at each other so that when jetting, you don't leave any debris in between. If I've got plenty of space and the job is a "good" one then I actually install wyes. Wyes make for some easy drain cabling or jetting. It also makes it pretty idiot proof for the drain cleaner. You never know, it might be my guy that comes back out years later to clean it.



Ron The Plumber said:


> OK well maybe it is not really called that but that is what I call it, it is called a bent edge vertical line post.
> 
> Sure back to back combos can work but there not allowed here.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech said:


> Is there some kind of legitimate reason for that Ron? or did someone just think it sounded like a cool rule?
> 
> I install a 2 way if it's shallow. If it's deep I install 2 combos aimed at each other so that when jetting, you don't leave any debris in between. If I've got plenty of space and the job is a "good" one then I actually install wyes. Wyes make for some easy drain cabling or jetting. It also makes it pretty idiot proof for the drain cleaner. You never know, it might be my guy that comes back out years later to clean it.



I don't make the codes I just have to follow them. See the words in the direction of flow, that all I need to know.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

(4) would over-ride 707.6. So the question remains why two combos cant serve as your approved two way C.O. at the building drain/sewer junction


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ask the inspector Ron and explain why you want to put the combos and I bet he will approve it.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Back to Back combos are not an approved type of two way cleanout.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

What code do you guys use again?


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

It has come up many times in CED classes and they are not allowed .


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Oregon Specialty Code. UPC with Oregon amendments.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Whats the reasoning behind them not approving it? Please ask because i gotta hear this answer


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Answer is, one risk the chance of joe smuck running a cable the wrong way, and breaking toilets,


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Amendment to Oregon code: 

All cleanouts oriented in the opposite direction of flow must be encased in concrete with an approved lockable cover. Cover shall have in legible writing with raised or stamped letters the following statement: "Keep yer friggin grubby handyman hands off this cleanout!"


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I like it, did you know that we can write in a summit possible code changes, and see if they can be implemented, are all places like this?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Answer is, one risk the chance of joe smuck running a cable the wrong way, and breaking toilets,


 then why do they want a two way at the junction?


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Answer is, one risk the chance of joe smuck running a cable the wrong way, and breaking toilets,


Joe smuck could just as easily do that with a deep 2 way cleanout. With two combos, he has more of a chance!!


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Yea it can happen, not that I have heard it happen in the 14 years that I have been here in Oregon


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> then why do they want a two way at the junction?


So you don't have to have an upper terminal clean out, one need to be able to clean upstream but at only one location on said main. Remember I said cllean outs every 100' and those are directional one ways.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Yea it can happen, not that I have heard it happen in the 14 years that I have been here in Oregon


 hey we have done it once or twice...broke the toilet. We replaced it....no biggie. I have a better one. I was on the roof and the sewer machine on the ground...I was shoving the cable down the stack and it went through a section of lead pipe in the wall....went through the lead pipe and through the wall and tore the bathroom apart. Thank God for insurance. It can happen before you know it. We learned somthing that day.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> So you don't have to have an upper terminal clean out, one need to be able to clean upstream but at only one location on said main. Remember I said cllean outs every 100' and those are directional one ways.


 Right and that would/could allow someone to break a toilet. So thats why I was saying that answer about breaking the toilet from them really doesn't make sense. Seems like they would like the combo method because your for sure know which way your going.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Ever do a sewer call at a house that had a backwards wye or tee?

I've been to a few where I'm cabling and I just happen to look up and out the window and see my cable hanging off the roof dangling. I go out side and it's tied in a huge knot in the flour bed. Dough!:icon_eek::stuart:



TheMaster said:


> hey we have done it once or twice...broke the toilet. We replaced it....no biggie. I have a better one. I was on the roof and the sewer machine on the ground...I was shoving the cable down the stack and it went through a section of lead pipe in the wall....went through the lead pipe and through the wall and tore the bathroom apart. Thank God for insurance. It can happen before you know it. We learned somthing that day.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> Ever do a sewer call at a house that had a backwards wye or tee?
> 
> I've been to a few where I'm cabling and I just happen to look up and out the window and see my cable hanging off the roof dangling. I go out side and it's tied in a huge knot in the flour bed. Dough!:icon_eek::stuart:


We had one come out of the pipe and out of the ground. The sewer ran down between two concrete driveway runners with grass in between. The cable came out of the ground and beat a ladys undercarraige to death!


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## UnclogNH (Mar 28, 2009)

I did one Brand new home just moved in toilet shower all backed up.

No clean out pull toilet slab home. Run machine here flap flap flap outside bathroom window.  Think oh no I broke the pipe. Go outside dig around cable. No pipe to septic tank. Duck taped closed at foundation with new lawn already laid. Someone goofed big time:whistling2:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

OMFG!?!



UnclogNH said:


> I did one Brand new home just moved in toilet shower all backed up.
> 
> No clean out pull toilet slab home. Run machine here flap flap flap outside bathroom window.  Think oh no I broke the pipe. Go outside dig around cable. No pipe to septic tank. Duck taped closed at foundation with new lawn already laid. Someone goofed big time:whistling2:


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## tooslow (Jul 17, 2009)

I'll bet you snake charmers have lots of horror stories about backwater valves, maybe even some I've put in. often wondered how you retrieve your snake.

Mine have all had access boxes but even still what a *****.


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## tooslow (Jul 17, 2009)

Refering to that cleanout install and future roots would it help if you poured 50 punds of rock salt before backfilling.


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## UnclogNH (Mar 28, 2009)

tooslow said:


> I'll bet you snake charmers have lots of horror stories about backwater valves, maybe even some I've put in. often wondered how you retrieve your snake.
> 
> Mine have all had access boxes but even still what a *****.


 
Most have access. Take a pair of vice grips clamp it on tight at end of revolving arm run machine in reverse until blade spins off.
Camera to locate and dig to access. Some machines the blades won't come off. Hook up a line trace locate and dig. Never been a problem Ask home owners if they are aware of any back water valves in the ground before work is preformed.
If so with no access line will need to Dug at owners expense. On the slip part of the hold harmless Not responsible for any damage to any drainage or vent pipes due to rust rotting out, neglect improperly installed or installations undetectable by the human eye.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

tooslow said:


> I'll bet you snake charmers have lots of horror stories about backwater valves, maybe even some I've put in. often wondered how you retrieve your snake.
> 
> Mine have all had access boxes but even still what a *****.


What I have done and worked for me every time. I pull on my cable hard enough to know the flapper is pulled down as tight as I can get it. I fill every fixture in the house tub, utility sink, kitchen sink, and the washing machine let all of them go at the same time and flush all the water closets. Then quickly push the cable forward to get the cutter out of the way of the flapper and then pull back fast while the water has the flapper raised up.


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