# Copper rolled up in walls from under slab



## srloren (Nov 19, 2014)

I have come to the conclusion that PEX is not the best way to go for these installations if there is attic space to run new copper and keep it out of the soil which could be acidic and contribute to pin holes from water which may also be below PH 7 and cause erosion. I replaced my copper under the slab by running it in my attic. Any comments are appreciated. Where am I wrong? Thanks in advance for your thoughts.


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

I braze type k
Wrapped in 10mil tape and blue bagged.

I hate the idea of rolled copper buried under a slab.

Attic installation would definitely be the way to go if it's an option


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

srloren said:


> I have come to the conclusion that PEX is not the best way to go for these installations if there is attic space to run new copper and keep it out of the soil which could be acidic and contribute to pin holes from water which may also be below PH 7 and cause erosion. I replaced my copper under the slab by running it in my attic. Any comments are appreciated. Where am I wrong? Thanks in advance for your thoughts.


what kind of installations? copper has been buried in the ground for a looong time, why wouldnt you run pex? if you run water lines in the attic, do you have cold freezing weather by you?


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## srloren (Nov 19, 2014)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> what kind of installations? copper has been buried in the ground for a long time, why wouldn't you run pex? if you run water lines in the attic, do you have cold freezing weather by you?


Not freezing here in San Diego very often, but it does happen ,some winters. I am reading about law suits for PEX about failure when chlorine or other chemicals used by water companies are involved. I read that it is mostly the fittings and the way they are connected but that the tubing itself can have problems with low PH water and if stored in sunlight it can cause failure. I just want something that will last as long as possible. BTW, the local code outlawed copper under the slab here in So Cal...probably other cities throughout the country too. Just guessing.If we had more freezing weather, I would add an expansion tank or other method to account for freezing in the copper. I already have small pressure arresters installed in my system. BTW when my copper failed under the slab it was caused by a kink that was straightened out by the original plumber who rolled up to tight causing a kink. It happens and the installer needs to be extra careful to not kink it again or it weakens the copper tube at that spot. It is recommended to get an analysis from the water purveyor to understand the chemistry. Some deal with this by installing a softener but I don't like Water Softeners either. We do not drink our water but purchase bottled water because the mix of Colorado River and Norther California Water is too ugly to put into your mouth. I understand there is some nasty water allowed to drain into the Colorado River...


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

hmmm, I havent heard of any issues with pex, can you get links to any lawsuits or issues? an expansion tank is not going to do squat with copper pipe not freezing..if is freezing out the copper will freeze and expand the copper where it froze..you need to leave pex outside in the sun for a loong time like a year to see any ill effect on it, then when you use it you will notice if it went bad..you cant fault a material failur on bad installation ( kink in copper)..pex is used world wide alot longer than here in the USA..there is always a possibility of a bad run of pipe, its happened here with cast iron, copper and steel pipe..but that was just limited to whatever happen in the factory for that run of pipe..I wouldnt hesitate to use pex..health wise..I think any material has issues if you dig deep enough..I havent had a pex failure yet, whether pipe or fittings and ive installed alot of it in the last 10-15 years between radiant and domestic water..I only use brass fittings with copper crimp rings...ok now im crossing my fingers that statement doesnt bite me in the ass..lol


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

here is a link for pex lawsuits, I googled, sounds like another witch hunt from the lawyers.. http://failures.wikispaces.com/PEX+Plumbing+Failures


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## srloren (Nov 19, 2014)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> here is a link for pex lawsuits, I googled, sounds like another witch hunt from the lawyers.. http://failures.wikispaces.com/PEX+Plumbing+Failures


Could be lawyers drumming up business but I gleaned this from that lawsuit you mentioned: 
. Conclusions 
"As the failures of PEX plumbing continue to be investigated and the lawsuits get settled, contractors will continue to install PEX plumbing systems. Because PEX has just recently become popular for potable water in the United States, PEX has only recently come under additional investigation. Even though research has shown that water flowing through PEX piping could become toxic, it hasn't been confirmed how often this occurs. Similarly, while Zurn and Kitec fittings have allegedly failed, research has not yet determined if PEX fittings are bad or if the manufacturing process was faulty. In the end, the choice to use PEX plumbing systems will be a decision by owner and with PEX costing less than rigid piping systems, it comes down to the owner's acceptance of the risk vs. cost of PEX as opposed to rigid piping."

With this being the case, if I were in business today, I would not install PEX due to liability potential. I don't believe you can have a customer sign off on a statement that they understand the risk and direct you to proceed with the installation. Having said this, I certainly am not a lawyer, as you know, and this is my own opinion. I could be as they say "All Wet". because Cities and Counties have approved this material and I would think that they would also be liable... just saying.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

srloren said:


> Could be lawyers drumming up business but I gleaned this from that lawsuit you mentioned:
> . Conclusions
> "As the failures of PEX plumbing continue to be investigated and the lawsuits get settled, contractors will continue to install PEX plumbing systems. Because PEX has just recently become popular for potable water in the United States, PEX has only recently come under additional investigation. Even though research has shown that water flowing through PEX piping could become toxic, it hasn't been confirmed how often this occurs. Similarly, while Zurn and Kitec fittings have allegedly failed, research has not yet determined if PEX fittings are bad or if the manufacturing process was faulty. In the end, the choice to use PEX plumbing systems will be a decision by owner and with PEX costing less than rigid piping systems, it comes down to the owner's acceptance of the risk vs. cost of PEX as opposed to rigid piping."
> 
> With this being the case, if I were in business today, I would not install PEX due to liability potential. I don't believe you can have a customer sign off on a statement that they understand the risk and direct you to proceed with the installation. Having said this, I certainly am not a lawyer, as you know, and this is my own opinion. I could be as they say "All Wet". because Cities and Counties have approved this material and I would think that they would also be liable... just saying.


I have seen far more copper failures than pex, could be there isnt as much pex out there yet...could be the copper powers to be are wagging war on the pex industry, just like the pharmaceuticals are attacking how bad medical marijuana is...and how do we know copper doesnt leech heavy metals into our water? if there are pinholes developing in copper , where is that dissolved copper going?..we will never know the truth...and why is it only in the USA that there are pex issues..because we are the only nation in the world to use chlorine in our water systems? hmmmm, more like the USA has too many money hungry lawyers...


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Ah the old PEX vs. copper.

Back when I was in CA I remember hearing about all the lawsuits... that's still going on?

SRDH is right about freezing, but yeah I wouldn't worry too much in your house.

IMHO, no matter what material that's used, access to repair/replacement in the future is the biggest thought on my mind. I'd rather fix a leak in an attic than under a slab.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

OpenSights said:


> Ah the old PEX vs. copper.
> 
> Back when I was in CA I remember hearing about all the lawsuits... that's still going on?
> 
> ...


A leak in the slab gets you a wet spot on the concrete, a leak in the attic gets you a $50,000+ insurance claim....and alot more aggravation..


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

Srloren-

What local code outlaws copper under a slab?


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Can still use L or K copper under slab in Illinois.

Yes is some cases acidic soil will pit it or cause leaks, but these cases around here are minimal. Just make sure you sleeve the copper going through the slab or foundation wall.

We have had more issues with settling pulling any of the plastic joints apart.

Never a good idea to have a joint under a slab period, even though a braised joint is approved.


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## srloren (Nov 19, 2014)

*Copper water lines coming through the slab to tie together*

Sounds like both materials have their share of problems. Yesterday, I repaired a pin hole leak on three copper fittings where 3 lines coming out of the slab tied together then serviced a lavatory through the top of the tee So it was a vertical tee, a horizontal tee and a street ell. It was on the hot side. That is not unusual but I cut the fittings, 2 tees and a street Ell apart and cut down through the center of the pin hole and that was where the erosion occurred. Not so much on the tees but I believe they were slightly eroded. Maybe .001 of an inch. My take away is that the horizontal tee intake water was washed away by the street ell intake on the end of the assembly. The vertical tee had water coming in from the branch and the intake on the bottom of the tee so it was also not as eroded as much because of that action. It is the street ell that get the most erosion. They used to make fittings specifically for tying in 2 pipes coming up through the slab and they were made of brass and rounded not like a 90 with a sharp bend. They were expensive and intended to cut down on labor costs They probably still make them, I just have not seen them for a while. But this rounded path for the water prevents erosion. I am probably boring you....


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

srloren said:


> Sounds like both materials have their share of problems. Yesterday, I repaired a pin hole leak on three copper fittings where 3 lines coming out of the slab tied together then serviced a lavatory through the top of the tee So it was a vertical tee, a horizontal tee and a street ell. It was on the hot side. That is not unusual but I cut the fittings, 2 tees and a street Ell apart and cut down through the center of the pin hole and that was where the erosion occurred. Not so much on the tees but I believe they were slightly eroded. Maybe .001 of an inch. My take away is that the horizontal tee intake water was washed away by the street ell intake on the end of the assembly. The vertical tee had water coming in from the branch and the intake on the bottom of the tee so it was also not as eroded as much because of that action. It is the street ell that get the most erosion. They used to make fittings specifically for tying in 2 pipes coming up through the slab and they were made of brass and rounded not like a 90 with a sharp bend. They were expensive and intended to cut down on labor costs They probably still make them, I just have not seen them for a while. But this rounded path for the water prevents erosion. I am probably boring you....


nope not boring, the erosion has more merit than most will agree on..thats one big issue with the wall hung heaters, the thin stainless steel heat exchangers fail from erosion, something the engineers didnt figure or did but the manufacture wanted a cheaper unit...


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

Not reaming your copper causes turbulence which causes pinholes with in 12" of a fitting.

Also not properly chlorinating your system
Will allow flux which is corrosive to cause a pinhole in the middle of a length of pipe.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Well you know we have went threw several types of waterlines threw the years and failures have been a on going problem. That being said the failure rate of lead water lines is a lot lower than pex but that doesn't mean we need them. Pex still has a low rate of failures. Know your conditions and judge which one fits best to the conditions.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> A leak in the slab gets you a wet spot on the concrete, a leak in the attic gets you a $50,000+ insurance claim....and alot more aggravation..


 Exactly,I run copper and pex under slabs all the time,I insulate both and never have any problems,if you don't insulate under slab=problems:yes:


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

srloren said:


> Sounds like both materials have their share of problems. Yesterday, I repaired a pin hole leak on three copper fittings where 3 lines coming out of the slab tied together then serviced a lavatory through the top of the tee So it was a vertical tee, a horizontal tee and a street ell. It was on the hot side. That is not unusual but I cut the fittings, 2 tees and a street Ell apart and cut down through the center of the pin hole and that was where the erosion occurred. Not so much on the tees but I believe they were slightly eroded. Maybe .001 of an inch. My take away is that the horizontal tee intake water was washed away by the street ell intake on the end of the assembly. The vertical tee had water coming in from the branch and the intake on the bottom of the tee so it was also not as eroded as much because of that action. It is the street ell that get the most erosion. They used to make fittings specifically for tying in 2 pipes coming up through the slab and they were made of brass and rounded not like a 90 with a sharp bend. They were expensive and intended to cut down on labor costs They probably still make them, I just have not seen them for a while. But this rounded path for the water prevents erosion. I am probably boring you....


Use long sweep copper fittings and this won't happen near as much,I use all long sweep fittings on and near circulating pumps:yes:


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## Dan_yuhl (Mar 3, 2016)

I run pex under slabs, my rule of thumb is that as long as it's underground always sleeve it with something since the piping is susceptible to kinks. I actually use electrical conduit piping since its quite flexible to sleeve the pex. IMHO you should run under slab, hope this helps.


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## SHEPLMBR70 (Feb 25, 2016)

yes.... sleeve it


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

SHEPLMBR70 said:


> yes.... sleeve it


You're a "former mechanic"? You need a formal intro before posting here: http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/


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## SHEPLMBR70 (Feb 25, 2016)

Plumber said:


> You're a "former mechanic"? You need a formal intro before posting here: http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/


 I did... need some credentials?


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

SHEPLMBR70 said:


> I did... need some credentials?


Yeah. Where you from where plumbers are called mechanics? Bad enough we're called technicians.


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## SHEPLMBR70 (Feb 25, 2016)

Virginia
And I don't remember putting mechanic on my intro. Just former construction worker for ten years.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

SHEPLMBR70 said:


> Virginia
> And I don't remember putting mechanic on my intro. Just former construction worker for ten years.


any plumbing background?


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## BOBBYTUCSON (Feb 8, 2013)

id run pex over copper anyday. ive repaired more pinhole leaks and blown fittings on copper than pex tenfold. infact ive yet to make any repair on pex yet. asfar as under slab , we are still allowed to run under slab aslong as its sleeved in approved methods and material. ipc basics. but....im thinking wirsbo might be the next poly-b. it really does get brittle on the hot side, and turns yellow. cold side fine, hotside turns yellow. the rep told me in cert class that its from oxidation....well that can be a problem. what scares me is the ring turns yellow too...and it doesnt even come into contact with water


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> ....im thinking wirsbo might be the next poly-b. it really does get brittle on the hot side, and turns yellow. cold side fine, hotside turns yellow. the rep told me in cert class that its from oxidation....well that can be a problem. what scares me is the ring turns yellow too...and it doesnt even come into contact with water


Very interesting. Worth keeping an eye on for sure.


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> id run pex over copper anyday. ive repaired more pinhole leaks and blown fittings on copper than pex tenfold. infact ive yet to make any repair on pex yet. asfar as under slab , we are still allowed to run under slab aslong as its sleeved in approved methods and material. ipc basics. but....im thinking wirsbo might be the next poly-b. it really does get brittle on the hot side, and turns yellow. cold side fine, hotside turns yellow. the rep told me in cert class that its from oxidation....well that can be a problem. what scares me is the ring turns yellow too...and it doesnt even come into contact with water



Maybe its the temperature and not the water turning it yellow


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## BOBBYTUCSON (Feb 8, 2013)

rwh said:


> Maybe its the temperature and not the water turning it yellow



its possible, but i have yet to see zurnpex or pex b turn yellow from hot temps, and with over 37 different chemicals in our city water...who knows whats going to happen. all i know is there has been some weird times where i have cut into older wirsbo that even still sais wirsbo in it and it was brittle and hardened and made that cracking sound like cutting into old sundried pvc. its scary, and trying to expand it made the same results, this was only on the hot side. im thinking chlorine+hot water equals disaster


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> its possible, but i have yet to see zurnpex or pex b turn yellow from hot temps, and with over 37 different chemicals in our city water...who knows whats going to happen. all i know is there has been some weird times where i have cut into older wirsbo that even still sais wirsbo in it and it was brittle and hardened and made that cracking sound like cutting into old sundried pvc. its scary, and trying to expand it made the same results, this was only on the hot side. im thinking chlorine+hot water equals disaster


here are settlement details about a class action suit against zurn http://www.plumbingfittingsettlement.com/FAQ.aspx#faq1


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## SHEPLMBR70 (Feb 25, 2016)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> any plumbing background?


Stated all that in my profile I think


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

SHEPLMBR70 said:


> Stated all that in my profile I think


nope..just says..former mechanic...cars, trucks? nothing about plumbing....just asking..


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## SHEPLMBR70 (Feb 25, 2016)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> nope..just says..former mechanic...cars, trucks? nothing about plumbing....just asking..


 Just looked, don't remember doing that. Former construction plumber for ten years, been in sales for last ten. I fixed it. Thank you for the heads up.


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