# Back to back toilets



## LordOfThePipe (Jan 12, 2014)

Here's what I got customer upgraded toilet to a hi efficiency Kohler with 3 1/2" flush valve ( not power assist) now when the new toilet is flushed it pulls the trap on the old toilet in the bathroom that backs up to it and not vice versa the plumbing in the basement is correct 3" San cross with 3" vent the arms are about 2' coming out of the cross I got on the roof and checked the vent it's clear any ideas on how to fix this?


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## Nathan901 (Feb 11, 2012)

AAV on closest sink drain?


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## LordOfThePipe (Jan 12, 2014)

The 3" vent is clear I don't think an AAv will make a difference


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

AAV not the problem, BUT all the reason why they should be BANNED!!!!!!

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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

cut out double tee and replace it with a double wye?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> cut out double tee and replace it with a double wye?


Huh??? Now you have completely lost the vent

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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

LordOfThePipe said:


> Here's what I got customer upgraded toilet to a hi efficiency Kohler with 3 1/2" flush valve ( not power assist) now when the new toilet is flushed it pulls the trap on the old toilet in the bathroom that backs up to it and not vice versa the plumbing in the basement is correct 3" San cross with 3" vent the arms are about 2' coming out of the cross I got on the roof and checked the vent it's clear any ideas on how to fix this?


Are the WC tied in to a vertical stack or on horizontal?

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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Quite a common problem...
It has been discussed at length here before in other threads...


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

read a code book. as per wisconsin code, 

two water closets discharging to a vertical drain from opposite sides by means of the same fitting shall be installed in accordance with subd. 4. a. and b.

a. where the vertical drain is 3" in diameter, the fitting for floor outlet water closets shall be a 3" double wye pattern fitting.

b. where the water closets are wall outlet types the fitting shall be a double why pattern fitting or a carrier type fitting:whistling2:


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Quite a common problem... It has been discussed at length here before in other threads...


Wouldn't pass in MA

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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> Wouldn't pass in MA
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Well whatever....
A few years ago I would have said call up Sal DiMasi and ask him what to do....:laughing:

But it's tough to call him these days...:laughing:


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Quite a common problem... It has been discussed at length here before in other threads...


Other than that particular manufacture recommending that fitting, you technically lose your vent with installing that type of fitting.

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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> Other than that particular manufacture recommending that fitting, you technically lose your vent with installing that type of fitting.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Really? Can you demonstrate how it is lost?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Really? Can you demonstrate how it is lost?


What if it wasn't a WC and it was say a floor drain, would a y and 1/8 be legal? Your vent is lost because your vent is lower than your trap weir, I call it a 3/4 s trap. It's not legal in my state, maybe I would approve it if the manufacture recommends it, but not every manufacture states that in their installation instructions. So that being said I wouldn't approve the install.

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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

Your going to argue about losing the vent if you use a double combo,how many other plumbing fixtures have the vent takeoff located below the trap it serves,yet it works.The small difference in height between branches on a cross and a combo isn't going to make a vent work better or worse.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

a 3" horizontal drain connecting into a 3" vertical drain by means of a wye pattern fitting at 1/8 " pitch can go 8' before losing its point of vent. if it was a tee, it can go 10'


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

leakfree said:


> Your going to argue about losing the vent if you use a double combo,how many other plumbing fixtures have the vent takeoff located below the trap it serves,yet it works.The small difference in height between branches on a cross and a combo isn't going to make a vent work better or worse.


Zackly...

And it stops the crossover problem from happening....:thumbup:

Besides the toilets flush is siphonic with replenishment...


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

i never install double tees for that reason. not to mention the drain augering problems whether on lavs or toilets


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I wouldn't ever put a wye vertical to pick up a fixture except for a toilet. Only because a toilet is designed to siphon which will allow air into the drain.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Back to back toilets have always caused some issues but the double wye is correct. The loss of a vent is a mute argument sense the toilet requires a siphon action and you really aren't loosing your vent anyway. Double wyes work well as long as the load is equal on both sides.


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## BC73RS (Jan 25, 2014)

Mmmmm...toto says, but isn't that a one off install?
Back to back? "T"s or crosses as you guys call them work for me on a circuit vent.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

BC73RS said:


> Mmmmm...toto says, but isn't that a one off install?
> Back to back? "T"s or crosses as you guys call them work for me on a circuit vent.


Not really one of...
I know Toto says to do it on pretty much their entire toilet line....

If your brand hasn't been forced into saying it, perhaps you should be wondering why you are installing them...


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Toilets don't even need a vent. It's an s-trap, which can't be vented anyway.

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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

422 plumber said:


> Toilets don't even need a vent. It's an s-trap, which can't be vented anyway.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


that is correct,in a way,it is an s-trap and vents don't do much for the toilet,but the vent is for the pipes that connect to the flange,if it were not vented the water would not flow and the toilet would or could not flush right,in fact I have even seen a toilet back up and over flow because the vent was blocked.so yes a vent is required on a toilet,especially since they went to 1.6gpf.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Ok, so I've spoke with 3 local inspectors about the double wye setup, and we've all said it was wrong until I showed them the spec sheets from toto and kohler. It's never come up to our knowledge and we have a local inspectors meeting next week and will bring it up. I agree that it won't siphon due to the fill valve replenishing the trap seal. I know some of you guys think that we inspectors are. A$$'s but most of the inspectors in my region are part time inspectors that own plumbing business , and are in the trenches everyday, we learn something new everyday, this is something new to me and most other inspectors about this topic.

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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

sparky said:


> that is correct,in a way,it is an s-trap and vents don't do much for the toilet,but the vent is for the pipes that connect to the flange,if it were not vented the water would not flow and the toilet would or could not flush right,in fact I have even seen a toilet back up and over flow because the vent was blocked.so yes a vent is required on a toilet,especially since they went to 1.6gpf.


Can you back that up with physics? I have seen many unvented toilets on older houses that flush great. That is a plumbers old wives tail. Science has proven this wrong. There have been tons of threads on this.

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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

422 plumber said:


> Can you back that up with physics? I have seen many unvented toilets on older houses that flush great. That is a plumbers old wives tail. Science has proven this wrong. There have been tons of threads on this. Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


What if the clothes washer discharges or a tub drains, would that not cause a gurgle or the trap to suck out. A backwater valve or a septic tank that is soon to be pumped will slow the drains making it necessary for air to go somewhere.
If that is the case, why vent a shower there is not enough discharge to cause a siphon and even so the water dripping down walls or bodies would replenish the trap seal.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I spoke with the MA plumbing board about this topic, as of right now it's an illegal install, but they are looking into the matter with the info that has been brought up, makes total sense but I have to enforce what's in my code, who know it may change. This is a prime example why this site is here, good thread fellas!!!

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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

422 plumber said:


> *Can you back that up with physics?* I have seen many unvented toilets on older houses that flush great. *That is a plumbers old wives tail. Science has proven this wrong. There have been tons of threads on this.*
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Yep! I think every one of those threads was closed because of illiterate posters that couldn't read the original post and got their flaming torch out thinking the thread was advocating plumbing without vents...

But it is true...
The primary purpose of a vent is to protect the trap seal...
*Drains will drain just fine without vents...
Unless:*

There is a clog or, restriction in the drain and air needs to be displaced to allow the line to fill.
The drain line runs to a sealed container such as a sewage ejector pit or, in some cases a septic tank, and air need to be displaced to allow the waste water to enter.
There is a defect in the line such as a belly which creates a double trap effect.

If you want to submit evidence to the contrary, it must be accompanied by a video inspection of the line showing the line running to a sewer without defects....:whistling2:

Here we go again! :thumbup::laughing:


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

tim666 said:


> What if the clothes washer discharges or a tub drains, would that not cause a gurgle or the trap to suck out. A backwater valve or a septic tank that is soon to be pumped will slow the drains making it necessary for air to go somewhere.
> If that is the case, why vent a shower there is not enough discharge to cause a siphon and even so the water dripping down walls or bodies would replenish the trap seal.


The only time I have ever seen a toilet trap break it's seal is if the there is something in the trap or the drain line is partially clogged. A vent won't help either situation. I will find some links, but toilets don't need vents, for anything. All a vent does is protect a p-trap seal, nothing else.


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

In ideal situations no individual fixture would need a vent if you refill the trap seal after the siphon, problem is people seem to want more than 1 fixture. The toilet has a deeper trap seal so it would pull a seal out of an 1 1/2" trap before it would a toilet. P-trap / S trap, it doesn't matter, if you had 4" traps on everything else than the toilet trap would suck out before the other fixtures would.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

422 plumber said:


> The only time I have ever seen a toilet trap break it's seal is if the there is something in the trap or the drain line is partially clogged. A vent won't help either situation. I will find some links, but toilets don't need vents, for anything. All a vent does is protect a p-trap seal, nothing else.


If a system isn't vented it's just like pouring gas into a lawn mower,it barely pours or comes out unless you open the little AIR VENT to allow air into the can making it come out much faster.same theory in a plumbing system,no vent water don't run as it normally would with air in the system.


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

There are a million bungalows in the Chicago area where the only vent is the stack thru the roof,no individual fixture vents,every waste line dumps into a tee on it's back at the main and they have all been working fine since the 40's.Had a village inspector tell me W/C's needed a minimum 3" vent when they first came out with the 1.6 toilets or they wouldn't flush correctly.We actually set a toilet for him on the rough and had him come look at it(we had installed a coupling on the 3" vent with no glue and had placed a Cherne test plug at the coupling completely blocking the vent)toilet flushed great,he changed his mind when we showed him the test plug.


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

leakfree said:


> There are a million bungalows in the Chicago area where the only vent is the stack thru the roof,no individual fixture vents,every waste line dumps into a tee on it's back at the main and they have all been working fine since the 40's.Had a village inspector tell me W/C's needed a minimum 3" vent when they first came out with the 1.6 toilets or they wouldn't flush correctly.We actually set a toilet for him on the rough and had him come look at it(we had installed a coupling on the 3" vent with no glue and had placed a Cherne test plug at the coupling completely blocking the vent)toilet flushed great,he changed his mind when we showed him the test plug.


1 toilet, no other fixtures and no vent?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sparky said:


> If a system isn't vented it's just like pouring gas into a lawn mower,it barely pours or comes out unless you open the little AIR VENT to allow air into the can making it come out much faster.same theory in a plumbing system,no vent water don't run as it normally would with air in the system.


And how does a fixture resemble a closed container?
Every fixture I've ever seen was open to the atmosphere...

Why don't you draw a couple of pictures, one of the gas can and one of the fixture, drain, and vent, so that you can examine them for any similarities...

There are none!

The finger over the straw doesn't apply either...

On one end the sink or, toilet is open to the atmosphere and on the other end so is the sewer....


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

tim666 said:


> 1 toilet, no other fixtures and no vent?


Don't understand your question?


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

leakfree, some guys will never get it. They don't read the code that that tells you vents are necessary for traps, and s-traps are illegal because they can't be vented. Toilets have an s-trap, it can't be vented, end of story.

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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

I still do some F/D's in the city with no vents,if your far enough away from a stack some of them look at you like your nut's if you do run a vent.I haven't failed an inspection there yet.They seem to be happy with anything as long as you don't use a cottage fitting on an U.G..


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

leakfree said:


> Don't understand your question?


The proof you didn't need a vent for the toilet installed at the rough stage


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

422 plumber said:


> leakfree, some guys will never get it. They don't read the code that that tells you vents are necessary for traps, and s-traps are illegal because they can't be vented. Toilets have an s-trap, it can't be vented, end of story. Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone[/QUOTE
> Your code actually states that toilets don't need to be vented?
> Canadian code says you do


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Here's what my code says

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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

tim666 said:


> The proof you didn't need a vent for the toilet installed at the rough stage


Read the original post.The proof that the toilet didn't need a vent was when we showed the inspector that we had completely blocked off the vent for the toilet with a test plug yet it still flushed correctly,it would be difficult to access a vent in a wall after drywall and show that we had disabled it,that is why we set a toilet BEFORE drywall while the house was in the rough stage so we could perform a demonstration for him.All of the other W+V piping was left as it was during the demonstration,just the one W/C had no functional vent.


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

tim666 said:


> 422 plumber said:
> 
> 
> > leakfree, some guys will never get it. They don't read the code that that tells you vents are necessary for traps, and s-traps are illegal because they can't be vented. Toilets have an s-trap, it can't be vented, end of story. Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone[/QUOTE
> ...


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

tim666 said:


> 422 plumber said:
> 
> 
> > leakfree, some guys will never get it. They don't read the code that that tells you vents are necessary for traps, and s-traps are illegal because they can't be vented. Toilets have an s-trap, it can't be vented, end of story. Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone[/QUOTE
> ...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

There isn't anyone here saying vents aren't required and will not be installed.

What is claimed is that unless there are conditions as outlined in this post fixtures will drain just fine with virtually no difference with or without a vent.

This is nothing new, dead men long before us have stated it as a proven fact....:yes:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

sparky said:


> that is correct,in a way,it is an s-trap and vents don't do much for the toilet,but the vent is for the pipes that connect to the flange,if it were not vented the water would not flow and the toilet would or could not flush right,in fact I have even seen a toilet back up and over flow because the vent was blocked.so yes a vent is required on a toilet,especially since they went to 1.6gpf.


Holy overflowing toilets Batman, another "plumber" that doesn't understand how venting works :laughing: how do you boys get your licenses these days? They putting them in boxes of Cracker Jacks :laughing:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Redwood said:


> There isn't anyone here saying vents aren't required and will not be installed.
> 
> What is claimed is that unless there are conditions as outlined in this post fixtures will drain just fine with virtually no difference with or without a vent.
> 
> This is nothing new, dead men long before us have stated it as a proven fact....:yes:


Most times, unvented fixtures will in fact drain a hair faster without a vent because they gain velocity from the siphonic action. I have a few videos on YouTube showing just such action. Vents, drains. :laughing:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

leakfree said:


> tim666 said:
> 
> 
> > You seem to be missing the point.I don't think you will find any plumbing code that will state that a W/C vent is not needed in some form,the point is that a W/C will perform well if it does not have a vent,this is a physics theory that can be demonstrated and not necessarily a practice that is followed.
> ...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Most times, unvented fixtures will in fact drain a hair faster without a vent because they gain velocity from the siphonic action. I have a few videos on YouTube showing just such action. Vents, drains. :laughing:


Yes they will...
Throw enough pitch on it and you'll have a lav sink that thinks its a toilet....:laughing:


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Yes they will... Throw enough pitch on it and you'll have a lav sink that thinks its a toilet....:laughing:


Ahhh but without the vent it may siphon.vents, gotta love them!!

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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Holy overflowing toilets Batman, another "plumber" that doesn't understand how venting works :laughing: how do you boys get your licenses these days? They putting them in boxes of Cracker Jacks :laughing:


Kentucky's code bike is only 3 pagers long with LOTS of pics

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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

plumbdrum said:


> Kentucky's code bike is only 3 pagers long with LOTS of pics Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Book

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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

The bottom line is the intent of a vent is to protect the trap seal from pressures minus or plus 1in of water column. A stool does not require a vent to operate but the fixtures around the stool do require one to protect it seal. It does not matter what state you are in the theory is the same no matter what the opinion.


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I've worked on a house with no vents at all. I know its not the only one out there and it drained fine for years and years. I agree vents are needed not to assist in draining but to protect the trap seal from siphoning.


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

It is nice to see some of us understand the physics that are applied to vents,siphons,and trap seals.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Yes they will...
> Throw enough pitch on it and you'll have a lav sink that thinks its a toilet....:laughing:





plumbdrum said:


> Ahhh but without the vent it may siphon.vents, gotta love them!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Oh yea! When that sink finishes draining it'll suck the water out of the trap just like a toilet finishing the flush...

But without the refill...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Most times, unvented fixtures will in fact drain a hair faster without a vent because they gain velocity from the siphonic action. I have a few videos on YouTube showing just such action. Vents, drains. :laughing:


Do you happen to live in a van on the beach? :laughing: :jester:


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Redwood said:


> And how does a fixture resemble a closed container?
> Every fixture I've ever seen was open to the atmosphere...
> 
> Why don't you draw a couple of pictures, one of the gas can and one of the fixture, drain, and vent, so that you can examine them for any similarities...
> ...


If it has a septic tank it is a closed system,not many sewers in ky,a lot of septic tanks


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

sparky said:


> If it has a septic tank it is a closed system,not many sewers in ky,a lot of septic tanks





nhmaster3015 said:


> leakfree said:
> 
> 
> > 09 IPC toilet to vent distance is unlimited which means there just has to be a vent on the system somewhere.
> ...


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

dclarke said:


> I've worked on a house with no vents at all. I know its not the only one out there and it drained fine for years and years. I agree vents are needed not to assist in draining but to protect the trap seal from siphoning.


Septic tank or sewer?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sparky said:


> If it has a septic tank it is a closed system,not many sewers in ky,a lot of septic tanks


Not always... Usually enough air leakage and or small enough air volume change that it isn't a problem...

We had a discussion the other day over on DCF about septic tanks with house traps and no vent on the tank side of the trap....

The guy had a problem on the initial filling of the tank after a cleaning, but was okay after that....

The large air volume change on the initial filling was a problem, but once the tank was filled to the normal level it was fine...


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

leakfree said:


> Read the original post.The proof that the toilet didn't need a vent was when we showed the inspector that we had completely blocked off the vent for the toilet with a test plug yet it still flushed correctly,it would be difficult to access a vent in a wall after drywall and show that we had disabled it,that is why we set a toilet BEFORE drywall while the house was in the rough stage so we could perform a demonstration for him.All of the other W+V piping was left as it was during the demonstration,just the one W/C had no functional vent.


I did read the original post, I know that any individual fixture will siphon out and drain without a vent, you tested 1 toilet, not the plumbing system with tubs, clothes washers, etc all discharging into the system. The vent also protects the trap seal of the toilet


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

422 plumber said:


> leakfree, some guys will never get it. They don't read the code that that tells you vents are necessary for traps, and s-traps are illegal because they can't be vented. Toilets have an s-trap, it can't be vented, end of story.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone





leakfree said:


> tim666 said:
> 
> 
> > You seem to be missing the point.I don't think you will find any plumbing code that will state that a W/C vent is not needed in some form,the point is that a W/C will perform well if it does not have a vent,this is a physics theory that can be demonstrated and not necessarily a practice that is followed.
> ...


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

How in hell is a septic system a closed system? So now we don't understand venting or septic systems :laughing:


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

nhmaster3015 said:


> How in hell is a septic system a closed system? So now we don't understand venting or septic systems :laughing:


 you still can't get around the theory of protecting the trap seal of the other fixtures. I deal with a lot of septic systems and they all are vented.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

*exactly!*


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Just drill and tap the concrete and put a AAV . Ha laughing

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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> Just drill and tap the concrete and put a AAV . Ha laughing
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


But that would only let the air in, not out :blink: Better to drill the hole and stick a 20' length of 3" PVC in there straight up :laughing:. It could double as a flag pole :laughing:

This thread underscores why some felt that the drain cleaner guys perhaps needed a separate forum. It also shows the lack of proper education. Venting is pretty basic stuff and understanding the purpose of a vent is 1st year apprentice stuff. If you follow any of the DIY forums the single most asked and argued posts are usually venting related. I can't begin to count the number of times I have read posts from "plumbers" stating that they had to rod the vent from the roof. Really? 40 years now and I have never once climbed upon a roof to rod a vent. Nor have I had too. Vents protect trap seals. Thats all there is to it. :thumbsup:


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

nhmaster3015 said:


> But that would only let the air in, not out :blink: Better to drill the hole and stick a 20' length of 3" PVC in there straight up :laughing:. It could double as a flag pole :laughing: This thread underscores why some felt that the drain cleaner guys perhaps needed a separate forum. It also shows the lack of proper education. Venting is pretty basic stuff and understanding the purpose of a vent is 1st year apprentice stuff. If you follow any of the DIY forums the single most asked and argued posts are usually venting related. I can't begin to count the number of times I have read posts from "plumbers" stating that they had to rod the vent from the roof. Really? 40 years now and I have never once climbed upon a roof to rod a vent. Nor have I had too. Vents protect trap seals. Thats all there is to it. :thumbsup:


I like the flagpole idea, I'm going to hang a rebel flag.

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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

You are correct on the knowledge of venting. When I do my inspections I still have some plumbers that have a hard time grasping the concept. Some guys don't understand how a vent could save them money, they will individual vent everything because they don't understand any other venting practices.

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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

nhmaster3015 said:


> But that would only let the air in, not out :blink: Better to drill the hole and stick a 20' length of 3" PVC in there straight up :laughing:. It could double as a flag pole :laughing: This thread underscores why some felt that the drain cleaner guys perhaps needed a separate forum. It also shows the lack of proper education. Venting is pretty basic stuff and understanding the purpose of a vent is 1st year apprentice stuff. If you follow any of the DIY forums the single most asked and argued posts are usually venting related. I can't begin to count the number of times I have read posts from "plumbers" stating that they had to rod the vent from the roof. Really? 40 years now and I have never once climbed upon a roof to rod a vent. Nor have I had too. Vents protect trap seals. Thats all there is to it. :thumbsup:


The AAV could open when the water trickles out to the d box. Lol

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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> You are correct on the knowledge of venting. When I do my inspections I still have some plumbers that have a hard time grasping the concept. Some guys don't understand how a vent could save them money, they will individual vent everything because they don't understand any other venting practices.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


I often wonder how many plumbers have discovered the magic of the cottage Tee? Talk about a fitting that will save you time and money. :thumbsup:


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I often wonder how many plumbers have discovered the magic of the cottage Tee? Talk about a fitting that will save you time and money. :thumbsup:


I'm assuming a cottage fitting is a sanitary tee with side inlets? I've always called them esterbrooks. Even wet venting some people can't figure out, that's real time/money saver also. When I was in business I can remember doing a house that has back to back bathrooms I loop/battery vented the bathroom groups, saved all kinds of pipe and time.

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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I have never snaked a vent. I've had calls for a clogged vent but is really a clogged drain. I have snaked 1 drain through a vent only because it was easier in that sitiation


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I often wonder how many plumbers have discovered the magic of the cottage Tee? Talk about a fitting that will save you time and money. :thumbsup:



Use them all the time,except they are usually a C.I. or no hub starter fitting,or some variation of a closet carrier of one type or another these days.Back in the 70-80's we probably put one at least in every S/F home we did.


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

tim666 said:


> I did read the original post, I know that any individual fixture will siphon out and drain without a vent, you tested 1 toilet, not the plumbing system with tubs, clothes washers, etc all discharging into the system. The vent also protects the trap seal of the toilet


I think I'm done with this conversation you seem to be truly lost as to what this issue is all about.Reread the original post a few times and you might still catch what fixture we did a demonstration on,a clue it wasn't a tub,clothes washer or an etc..You are more than welcome to keep your views on how venting in the plumbing trade works and I'll keep mine.


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

Sure thing, the original post however was for back to back toilets with one toilet sucking out the seal of the other, then someone pointed out that toilets don't need to be vented


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Can we all say it together , DOUBLE FIXTURE FITTING.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> How in hell is a septic system a closed system? So now we don't understand venting or septic systems :laughing:


It's not...

its an in n out...

usually with very little change in the air volume in the tank...


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Redwood said:


> It's not... its an in n out... usually with very little change in the air volume in the tank...


Separators (out/gas) grease interceptors have an in and out with a chamber vent.

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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

plumbdrum said:



> Separators (out/gas) grease interceptors have an in and out with a chamber vent. Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


 septic tanks do not have chambers so they don't require venting.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

wyrickmech said:


> septic tanks do not have chambers so they don't require venting.


I know that, just making a point, Separators are part of a plumbing system that's why vent is needed. Septic tank is no longer plumbing. In Ma 10' out from inner face of foundation wall out plumbing stops

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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Septic tanks aren't considered plumbing here either but a plumber that doesn't understand how they function is not much of a plumber.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Septic tanks aren't considered plumbing here either but a plumber that doesn't understand how they function is not much of a plumber.


I hope that wasn't directed at me good sir??

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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

If you understand septic systems then the post was not intended for you. :thumbsup:


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

nhmaster3015 said:


> If you understand septic systems then the post was not intended for you. :thumbsup:


Phew , I feel better. Lol. Have a great day man!!!!

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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Ere are you in mass


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Ere are you in mass


Southeastern

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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Near the cape?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Near the cape?


Not far, we will leave it at that

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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

So with the crappy weather the traffic might not be as bad as usual this Memorial Day. I made the mistake a few years back of trying to drive out to Dennis. Should have packed a lunch :laughing:


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

nhmaster3015 said:


> So with the crappy weather the traffic might not be as bad as usual this Memorial Day. I made the mistake a few years back of trying to drive out to Dennis. Should have packed a lunch :laughing:


Just get a tunnel pass. Lol

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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

plumbdrum said:


> Just get a tunnel pass. Lol Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


I think the tunnels are vented too. Lol


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Yesterday I got a call back from the Ma plumbing board. In our state we have a product acceptance policy through our board for plumbing fixtures and gas appliances. They said that if the particular water closet is approved by the board , the install of back to back install can be installed with the double wye and 1/8 bend. If the requirement is not listed in the specs, it must be installed with a double sanitary tee. This should be interesting , most new construction jobs mist plumbers don't even know what brand WC is going to be purchased. I've asked if it could be entertained to change the policy to all WC to avoid this confusion all together.

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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Ever sat in on a Mass. Plumbers board meeting :laughing:

So, they are essentially saying that to be safe, you should use a double San-Tee? or at least thats how I read the decision. Should make for some interesting toilet augering sessions :laughing:


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Don't shoot the messenger man, and yes been to a few board meetings

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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

A fun way to kill an entire day :no:


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I've always found the meeting interesting, I actually should be there today for a variance, but I am tied up today.

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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

Lord did you find a solution to your problem? would like to know so everyone can quit venting. {not on your plumbing, keep venting, vents are good}:thumbsup:


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> Lord did you find a solution to your problem? would like to know so everyone can quit venting. {not on your plumbing, keep venting, vents are good}:thumbsup:


I've got lots of problems with few solutions, thank god for BOOZE

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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I worked at a house yesterday with no vents. Everything worked fine for many years and worked fine again once I got the line cleared.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

dclarke said:


> I worked at a house yesterday with no vents. Everything worked fine for many years and worked fine again once I got the line cleared.


Still doesn't make it right

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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

dclarke said:


> I worked at a house yesterday with no vents. Everything worked fine for many years and worked fine again once I got the line cleared.


I did some heating work at a house where his above grade drainage had all the y's tied in backwards (upstream) and told me he has never had an issue, oh well


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> Still doesn't make it right
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


I don't think anyone ever said it was right....:whistling2::no:

But the drains still worked....:yes:


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

plumbdrum said:


> Still doesn't make it right
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


When I think what's right and wrong you have to think of the time the place was built/plumbed. Obviously its not right by today's code but at the time the place was built it was correct. I was also stating it because it did work and still works.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

dclarke said:


> When I think what's right and wrong you have to think of the time the place was built/plumbed. Obviously its not right by today's code but at the time the place was built it was correct. I was also stating it because it did work and still works.


True, I find it hard to believe it had no vents though , the area I'm in is 1 of the oldest parts in the country, not every fixture is vented but there is always a VTR. Even some cottages at least had a 2 vent. Never seen a house with no vent.

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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

First house I saw with no vent was a friends house. I looked everywhere. Nothing. The house the other day that had no VTR had a clean out in the sidewalk with a square cap with holes that said vent. It wasn't even and actual cap it just sat around the pipe pressed Into the brick sidewalk.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

dclarke said:


> First house I saw with no vent was a friends house. I looked everywhere. Nothing. The house the other day that had no VTR had a clean out in the sidewalk with a square cap with holes that said vent. It wasn't even and actual cap it just sat around the pipe pressed Into the brick sidewalk.


It was probably a house trap vent

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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I dont think so. It was terracotta pipe and I snaked it both directions and never felt like a trap. I've also never seen a house trap around here. Not saying for sure but it didn't feel like it.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

plumbdrum said:


> True, I find it hard to believe it had no vents though , the area I'm in is 1 of the oldest parts in the country, not every fixture is vented but there is always a VTR. Even some cottages at least had a 2 vent. Never seen a house with no vent. Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


 in the sixties and early seventies there was systems installed around here without vents. The risers was always oversized so the water would not make a water plug and air could pass. The sinks worked fine,and stools were slow but had 3 gallon flushes. The system would not work well with the hi speed flushes of today's stools.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

dclarke said:


> I worked at a house yesterday with no vents. Everything worked fine for many years and worked fine again once I got the line cleared.


Bet it was on a sewer wasn't it


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

Yes it was on county sewer but had the "vent" that I used as a clean out been there with a septic the house still would have drained fine.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

dclarke said:


> Yes it was on county sewer but had the "vent" that I used as a clean out been there with a septic the house still would have drained fine.


Maybe,maybe not


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sparky said:


> Maybe,maybe not


More likely than not....:yes:


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

The way I'm going to look at this scenario is let's taking a V8 motor and run it on 7 cylinders, it will get you to where ya want to go but it may be a SLUGGISH ride and could leave DEPOSITS in your engine.LOL

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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

The way I look at it is that provided the drains are properly sized and sloped the fixture will drain just fine without a vent at all. :thumbsup:


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> The way I'm going to look at this scenario is let's taking a V8 motor and run it on 7 cylinders, it will get you to where ya want to go but it may be a SLUGGISH ride and could leave DEPOSITS in your engine.LOL Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Disagree.

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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

That's my opinion, I fully expected diagreement.

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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

You only get disagreement because you are wrong :laughing:


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plumbdrum said:


> The way I'm going to look at this scenario is let's taking a V8 motor and run it on 7 cylinders, it will get you to where ya want to go but it may be a SLUGGISH ride and could leave DEPOSITS in your engine.LOL
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


I agree with ya on this one drum,nah thinks he's the only one here that knows how and what a vent is all about


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

nhmaster3015 said:


> The way I look at it is that provided the drains are properly sized and sloped the fixture will drain just fine without a vent at all. :thumbsup:


I get the principle, just don't think the drainage system will work to its full potential.

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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Well, no it won't because the absence of proper vents can cause uneven pressures within the system that can cause traps to siphon but the drains will work just fine.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Well, no it won't because the absence of proper vents can cause uneven pressures within the system that can cause traps to siphon but the drains will work just fine.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Well, no it won't because the absence of proper vents can cause uneven pressures within the system that can cause traps to siphon but the drains will work just fine.


I'm sure those house with no vents had bottle traps, but yes they would drain fine. He'll maybe there is no traps so no worries about siphoning.

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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

plumbdrum said:


> I'm sure those house with no vents had bottle traps, but yes they would drain fine. He'll maybe there is no traps so no worries about siphoning.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


No bottle traps that I saw. No vent will drain fine as long as nothing is clogged. The only reason for a vent is to protect the trap seal. Not to assist in draining. No vent means the drain is going to siphon traps to get a vent and equalize the pressure. Vents are important but not for the reasons some people here think.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

If vents are needed, can someone explain how a siphon works?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

dclarke said:


> No bottle traps that I saw. No vent will drain fine as long as nothing is clogged. The only reason for a vent is to protect the trap seal. Not to assist in draining. No vent means the drain is going to siphon traps to get a vent and equalize the pressure. Vents are important but not for the reasons some people here think.


Someone needs to go back to plumbing school, that is not the only reason for a plumbing vent.

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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

plumbdrum said:


> Someone needs to go back to plumbing school, that is not the only reason for a plumbing vent.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Educate me....


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Ok, the plumbing vent also allows the escape of sewer gasses and helps with the flow of water and solids in the plumbing system.. I agree the main reason is trap protection but not the only reason. So with your unvented house not having bottle traps what protected the trap seal? Do you understand the theory of a bottle trap? Was there AAV ? What protected the trap seal in that house?

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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

plumbdrum said:


> Ok, the plumbing vent also allows the escape of sewer gasses and helps with the flow of water and solids in the plumbing system.. I agree the main reason is trap protection but not the only reason. So with your unvented house not having bottle traps what protected the trap seal? Do you understand the theory of a bottle trap? Was there AAV ? What protected the trap seal in that house?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


I didn't check all the traps in the house but the only ones I saw were s traps. No aav that I saw. A vent equalizes the pressure on both sides of the trap which is what protects the trap seal. Even if there was an aav that's not going to let positive pressure out. Not sure how it helps with flow if a siphon flows faster than a drain with a vent. Venting the positive pressure out of the house is also protecting the trap seal.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

dclarke said:


> I didn't check all the traps in the house but the only ones I saw were s traps. No aav that I saw. A vent equalizes the pressure on both sides of the trap which is what protects the trap seal. Even if there was an aav that's not going to let positive pressure out.


I understand that, what and why aren't those traps siphoning? My point of this is that the plumbing vent serves more purposes than trap protection, even though that is the major 1. Believe me I understand how plumbing works, how are you going to protect the trap seals in that home?

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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

The trap seals haven't been siphoning. If everything has worked for years and years what's there to change ? Am I supposed to say she needs to remodel her house to add vents ? I'm sure that would go over well.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

dclarke said:


> The trap seals haven't been siphoning. If everything has worked for years and years what's there to change ? Am I supposed to say she needs to remodel her house to add vents ? I'm sure that would go over well.


You could add a fitting on the system run it through a closet , vent outside somehow. Get a vent on the system and the install anti-siphon traps, it could be done I'm sure of it.

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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

You keep telling me the importance of a vent to protect the trap seal, so protect it. Somehow

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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

Just because something can siphon doesn't mean it will siphon. In this instance there's enough separation between the toilet and lav that it doesn't pull the trap seal. If its not siphoning after years and years what's there to protect ? I didnt go upstairs at all because she had no issues upstairs. Sure I could make an extra deep trap seal which also protects it but I. This situation there is no need. If she were remodeling it would get changed to meet current code.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

dclarke said:


> Just because something can siphon doesn't mean it will siphon. In this instance there's enough separation between the toilet and lav that it doesn't pull the trap seal. If its not siphoning after years and years what's there to protect ? I didnt go upstairs at all because she had no issues upstairs. Sure I could make an extra deep trap seal which also protects it but I. This situation there is no need. If she were remodeling it would get changed to meet current code.


Fair enough

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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Hey we managed to get 10 pages on the topic of back to back WC's and venting. Ahhhhh I LOVE plumbing!!!!

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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I know I dont know everything about plumbing and never will. I know I've forgotten some plumbing that I've learned. I do however try to grasp the concepts behind the codes and learn every day. Also without being on site and seeing g whats going on its very easy to jump to conclusions of " why did you do that ? why didn't you do this ?" All in all I'm comfortable with the jobs I do because I do my best and take pride in my work.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

i was on a service call friday where they bushed down the top of a lav tee and went to 3/4 cpvc and vented it out of a wall. its not right but better than nothing and still better than an aav. that has nothing to do with why i was there but it made me shake my head :no:


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

plumbdrum said:


> Hey we managed to get 10 pages on the topic of back to back WC's and venting. Ahhhhh I LOVE plumbing!!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


lol , you think this is the first 10 pages on this subject,lol. There are over a 100 pages on this subject on this site. It's a dead horse that has been kicked ,beaten and buried then dug back up for a good kicking again over the years .


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

justme said:


> lol , you think this is the first 10 pages on this subject,lol. There are over a 100 pages on this subject on this site. It's a dead horse that has been kicked ,beaten and buried then dug back up for a good kicking again over the years .


There is a saying in fishing that 10% of the fishermen catch 90% of the fish....

We can probably say something similar about the number of plumbers that understand venting.... :laughing:

Scuze me now I've got a line that isn't draining...
I'm going to go cable the vent cuz it surely is a vent that is blocked... :blink::whistling2:


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Once again you fail to recognize ALL the needs that a vent does, it's not just trap protection. It is the major one but not the only one.

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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> Once again you fail to recognize ALL the needs that a vent does, it's not just trap protection. It is the major one but not the only one.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Set The Hook!


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

On a side note and back to the original topic, I approved a back to back WC with double wye's today. The plumber was using Toto WC and had the documentation. On the rough that he was using those WC's.

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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Set The Hook! Video Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwRrKaq0IyY


I don't like the bait and I freakin HATE country music

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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

How about roof drains? They aren't vented, yet water flows thru them just fine. I have rodded clogged roof drains and have seen them drain like a bet out if hell with several inches of standing water over the opening.

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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

422 plumber said:


> How about roof drains? They aren't vented, yet water flows thru them just fine. I have rodded clogged roof drains and have seen them drain like a bet out if hell with several inches of standing water over the opening. Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


No traps, drains open to open atmosphere. Sounds like it's vented to me

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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Redwood said:


> There is a saying in fishing that 10% of the fishermen catch 90% of the fish....
> 
> We can probably say something similar about the number of plumbers that understand venting.... :laughing:
> 
> ...


None of us know anything about vents and venting red,you are the man on vents and any type piping system,if we don't believe you all we gots to do is just ask you


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

Redwood always seems pretty knowledgeable to me. I'd ask him for help/advice if I didn't know something. Of course that requires admitting you dont know.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I still love ya RED!!!!

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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

But I still hate country music.☺

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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

dclarke said:


> Redwood always seems pretty knowledgeable to me. I'd ask him for help/advice if I didn't know something. Of course that requires admitting you dont know.


I ain't asking him jack ****zu


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

422 plumber said:


> How about roof drains? They aren't vented, yet water flows thru them just fine. I have rodded clogged roof drains and have seen them drain like a bet out if hell with several inches of standing water over the opening.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Always always goes to a sewer or out to open ground


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> No traps, drains open to open atmosphere. Sounds like it's vented to me
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


ALL drains are open to the atmosphere.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

nhmaster3015 said:


> ALL drains are open to the atmosphere.


I think he was referring to the home with no vent, at least that's what I thought

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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

so if those toto toilets are replaced with a different brand, is the double wye now illegal and a repipe is needed?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> so if those toto toilets are replaced with a different brand, is the double wye now illegal and a repipe is needed?


According to my code yes, but I wouldn't make them change it

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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> so if those toto toilets are replaced with a different brand, is the double wye now illegal and a repipe is needed?


Kohler spec sheets and American Standard Champion both also say it must be a double y for back to back installation


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I think that you'll find quite a few of the better flushing toilets with the 3" flush valve will say this...

As I said earlier in this thread...



Redwood said:


> If your brand hasn't been forced into saying it, perhaps you should be wondering why you are installing them...


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I'm starting to see these setups more often, it has never been a practice in this state. I agree with the practice, makes sense. I got a call from a fellow inspector last week , a plumber had an inspection with him, he did the double setup , inspector was going to fail it, plumber said that I allows it, inspector never heard of such a thing. I educated him about the situation. Thanks guys for educating me on this.

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