# 45 Rolling Offset Formula ??



## para1

Does anyone know the formula for finding the length of pipe (TRAVEL) between two 45"s? I thought I could remember it, but I was wrong. :furious:


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## 422 plumber

Multiply the center to center by 1.41, the subtract the fittings, I think. I used to do it every day for sump pumps, but It's been too long.


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## ILPlumber

jjbex said:


> Multiply the center to center by 1.41, the subtract the fittings, I think. I used to do it every day for sump pumps, but It's been too long.


Yup, that's it. I use it almost every day. Bugs the crap out of me to see a journeyman holding a 45 up guessing a traveler.

Buy the pipefitters and pipe weldors handbook. VERY handy book.


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## Plasticman

Worked for a guy who said he fired his leed plumber for trying to hold up 2, 4 inch no hub 1/8 bends and measure between them at the same time. AND was on a ladder.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

We always had to do a copper jig for the journeyman's test, using the multiplier 1.414 and now they have instead of a lead pour,

3 pipes that are 2" cast iron, ou have to figure out how the offsets work and do your multipliers and if you're right, when you slip on the mission couplings they are either super tight or don't fit at all.


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## Wethead

para1 said:


> Does anyone know the formula for finding the length of pipe (TRAVEL) between two 45"s. Thought I could remember it but I was wrong. :furious:


Google Books has it for ya 

Plumber's and Pipe Fitter's ... - Google Book Search

Even has pictures


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## user4

A rolling offset is not a simple offset.
In a rolled offset you need to know the spread *A* and the advance*B*, then it is a simple formula, A squared, plus B squared, the suare root of that sum is then multiplied by 1.4142 and the fitting takeoffs subtracted from that number. that formula is for 45 degree offsets for 60 degree offsets replace 1.4142 with 1.1547, the rest is the same.


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## Redwood

Plasticman said:


> Worked for a guy who said he fired his leed plumber for trying to hold up 2, 4 inch no hub 1/8 bends and measure between them at the same time. AND was on a ladder.


Thats only done when you have an air computer...
Sheeesh!:laughing:


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## Marlin

Plasticman said:


> Worked for a guy who said he fired his leed plumber for trying to hold up 2, 4 inch no hub 1/8 bends and measure between them at the same time. AND was on a ladder.


That's how I was shown how to do it. Their is a formula? That makes my life a little easier.


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## Double-A

Um... you folks are making things complicated and Killer, I'm not sure what the heck Spread and Advance refer to.

Think of a right triangle, 45, 45, 90. The two short sides are equal. The long side is calculated by using the 
Pythagorean theorem. The three sides are A, B, and C, so A squared, plus B squared is equal to the square root of C.

Now, think of a vertical pipe that needs to offset 6 inches. You use the 6 inches and multiply by 1.4142, and that will give you the center line to center line distance between the two pipes along the path of your angle, or 8.48 inches, which rounds to the nearest 1/16th of an inch, or 8-1/2". You have to compensate for the fitting make up distance, which is subtracted from that length. 

BTW, your offset will always equal your rise and visa versa in a 45,45,90 triangle.

A picture is worth a thousand words so...

If you were to do as Killer says, 6x6=36, 36+36=72, the square root of 72 = 8.48528. If I then multiply that by 1.4142, I come out with something just under 12. That won't work, even after I subtract for the fitting make up. That's why I got lost.

Just multiply the offset by 1.414 and then knock off the fitting allowances or make up and it'll fit like it was made to go there.


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## user4

Double-A said:


> Um... you folks are making things complicated and Killer, I'm not sure what the heck Spread and Advance refer to.
> 
> Think of a right triangle, 45, 45, 90. The two short sides are equal. The long side is calculated by using the
> Pythagorean theorem. The three sides are A, B, and C, so A squared, plus B squared is equal to the square root of C.
> 
> Now, think of a vertical pipe that needs to offset 6 inches. You use the 6 inches and multiply by 1.4142, and that will give you the center line to center line distance between the two pipes along the path of your angle, or 8.48 inches, which rounds to the nearest 1/16th of an inch, or 8-1/2". You have to compensate for the fitting make up distance, which is subtracted from that length.
> 
> BTW, your offset will always equal your rise and visa versa in a 45,45,90 triangle.
> 
> A picture is worth a thousand words so...
> 
> If you were to do as Killer says, 6x6=36, 36+36=72, the square root of 72 = 8.48528. If I then multiply that by 1.4142, I come out with something just under 12. That won't work, even after I subtract for the fitting make up. That's why I got lost.
> 
> Just multiply the offset by 1.414 and then knock off the fitting allowances or make up and it'll fit like it was made to go there.


I provided the formula for a rolled offset, where you are changing both the height (Advance) and the distance apart (Spread), you are doing the math for a simple offset.


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## para1

It's the same thing depending on how you look at it, right?












BEAM ME UP


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## user4

para1 said:


> It's the same thing depending on how you look at it, right?


No, a rolled offset is offsetting two ways as opposed to a simple offset where it remains on the same plane. In a rolled offset you offfsetting both side to side as well as up and down at the same time using two fittings.


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## richfield

Killer is right. Rolling offsets are completely different, I forget the exact formula but Killer's looks right. If that formula doesn't work then I can dig up mine but it's probably the same.


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## ILPlumber

For rolling offsets you have to find the "true offset".

Take the square root of offset squared plus rise squared. This is the true offset. Take this number times 1.414

It's as easy as dat. I misread the question the first time I posted in this thread.


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## ROTOR KING

I m almost embaressed to say it,I work for a reputable company,1950,and the plumbers hold up fittings.Mind you there not buliding new construction anymore.You guys are ausome.


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## ironandfire

.707,1.414,.707


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## Redwood

Take a look see at this link.
Audel Pipefitter's and Welder's ... - Google Book Search


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## Bill

I wish to add my .02

As a carpenter we know that to find the diagonal measurement of a squared building you use the formula:

Length to the second power plus width to the second power. Then square that answer, voila! Diagonal measurement. Use it all the time. Should be the same principle here. I dont care if its a rolling offset, or a plain ordinary off set, it is still off set by 45 degrees, so two 45's make a 90, right??

I mean, I look at DA's diagram and it makes sense to me.


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## richfield

you have to account for the distance it moves to the side. look at redwoods diagram and you'll see what we mean. your formula(Pythagorean theorem) works great for your situation but now the 45 has been turned.

Rolling Offsets Story
your running your groundwork and you are headed towards your stack when all of a sudden, out of now where you screwed up!!!!!! You realize you are about to miss your stack and you start crying because you don't want to use an extra 45!!!! so instead you roll the 2 45's to accommodate the offset. the piece connecting the the 45's is a little longer than if it was lined up square but now the boss is happy he saved a 45 and you are happy you get to keep your job. and everyone lived happily ever after because we learned about rolling offsets. The End.


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## Bill

OK, I get it now


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## richfield

it must have been the short story that helped you. I should quit plumbing and start writing children books. :laughing:


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## Wethead

GOSH are we still talking about this


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## muck

******* said:


> GOSH are we still talking about this


thats what i was thinking


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## Redwood

I used to roll offsets but that was years ago back in the 60's n 70's...
Unlike Bill Clinton I inhaled a lot! :whistling2:


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## TheMaster

:laughing:I'd fire a guy if he was under a house making an offset and he asked for a calculator or a pencil and paper. Do the layout method if your working with 4" and under and the pipe is easy to cut. The last apprentice I gave a books too was so stupid he kept eating the cover's,I'dhate to see what he would do with a calculator....prolly try to call home with it.:laughing:


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## Protech

You can also do the Pythagorean theorem for the simple offset, then get the height of the rolled offset. Now do the Pythagorean theorem again using your first hypotenuse and the height of the rolled off set to get your second hypotenuse (which will be the length of the pipe your trying to Figure). Now just facture in your fitting allowances and call out your number to the helper.:thumbsup:


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## Bollinger plumber

I just don't understand this... I cut it off twice and it is still too short


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## ILPlumber

al said:


> I just don't understand this... I cut it off twice and it is still too short


It will be all right Al. Don't push the pipe all the way in the fitting. 

If you calculate 45's for a few years, you have ALL the numbers rolling around in your brain. No calculator.


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## Protech

OK, I'll break it down for ya 

See the drawings.

We want to know what "x" is.

First we do the Pythagorean theorem for the simple offset(we want to get "c")

"A" squared plus "B" squared. Then get the Square root of that and you will now know what "C" is.

Now, do the same thing but with "C" and "D" to get "X".

Let's do one together.

From the second drawing we know that "A"=2 and "B"=8 and "D"=7(spread, advance and rise).

2 squared plus 8 squared is 68 and the square root of that is 8.246.

So now that we know "C" is 8.246 we can do that same thing again to get "x" which is our rolling offset.

8.246 squared plus 7 squared is 116.99 and the square root of that is 10.816.

That's your answer, 10.816'.


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## user4

Protech said:


> OK, I'll break it down for ya
> 
> See the drawings.
> 
> We want to know what "x" is.
> 
> First we do the Pythagorean theorem for the simple offset(we want to get "c")
> 
> "A" squared plus "B" squared. Then get the Square root of that and you will now know what "C" is.
> 
> Now, do the same thing but with "C" and "D" to get "X".
> 
> Let's do one together.
> 
> From the second drawing we know that "A"=2 and "B"=8 and "D"=7(spread, advance and rise).
> 
> 2 squared plus 8 squared is 68 and the square root of that is 8.246.
> 
> So now that we know "C" is 8.246 we can do that same thing again to get "x" which is our rolling offset.
> 
> 8.246 squared plus 7 squared is 116.99 and the square root of that is 10.816.
> 
> That's your answer, 10.816'.


How is that easier than taking the square root of A squared plus B squared and multiplying it by 1.4142?


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## Protech

It isn't.


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## para1

WOW!, this thread still going? Sorry guys, when I first posted this question I needed the info to scratch down fast for a guy who was heading out to take the journeyman's exam.
He has since gone on to Master, steal enough from me to start his own business, build that business up to 983 trucks, go completely insane and the last time anyone saw him was at the R.P.B.O.A.

Retired Plumbing Business Owner Asylum

:laughing:


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## ILPlumber

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

para, 
You are one funny guy....


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## aldenphac

para1 said:


> Does anyone know the formula for finding the length of pipe (TRAVEL) between two 45"s. Thought I could remember it but I was wrong. :furious:


The answer is: Travel = Offset x Constant
The constant for a 45 degree angle fittings 1.4142 (shorten to 1.41)
1) - measure the offset (distance pipe is being moved to new location c-c)
2) - multiple the offset by the constant 1.41 
3) - answer is the travel measurement or "the distance between the two 45)
i.e: if the offset is 7 1/2" then T= 7.5 x 1.41 = 9.87 round off to nearest 1/8' T=9 7/8" c-c

Hope this helps. by the way this formulas works for any travel measurement, only thing that changes is the constant being used.

alden


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## PLUMBER_BILL

aldenphac said:


> The answer is: Travel = Offset x Constant





aldenphac said:


> The constant for a 45 degree angle fittings 1.4142 (shorten to 1.41)
> 1) - measure the offset (distance pipe is being moved to new location c-c)
> 2) - multiple the offset by the constant 1.41
> 3) - answer is the travel measurement or "the distance between the two 45)
> i.e: if the offset is 7 1/2" then T= 7.5 x 1.41 = 9.87 round off to nearest 1/8' T=9 7/8" c-cHope this helps. by the way this formulas works for any travel measurement, only thing that changes is the constant being used.
> alden



For those interested here are the other constants for regular offsets not 
rolling offsets.

Degree ----Constant

60 ---------1.15
45 ---------1.414
30 ---------2.00
22-1/2 -----2.61 
11-1/4 -----5.12


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## Titan Plumbing

I just ask my apprentice........................


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## wundumguy

choctaw said:


> i Just Ask My Apprentice........................


Bingo!


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## SewerRatz

Here you go more formulas for you guys. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/useful-formula-thread-8539/


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

I aced my practical (100) for my journeyman's test, got a 98 on the written.

I thought the copper jig and the lead pour was kid's play. I only got a half hour sleep that night and was having fun with my latest girlfriend that was STACKED!!!! 

Damn those were some good times. :yes:


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## AKdaplumba

eye it out


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## ILPlumber

Your actual piece will be shorter than your calculated traveler. I don't know of any fittings that make up all the way to center.

You guys already know this, some might not though....


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## aldenphac

*Fitting Allowance*

There's also a formula for fitting allowance, "the distance the fitting takes up in the center to center measurement"
FA = CF - TE CF = center to face measurement of the fitting
TE = thread engagement of thread (or socket)
FA is deducted from c-c measurement and that equals your end to end measurement. Here's the problem: A black (galv.) screw pipe fitting is suppose to screw on a threaded end (nipple or pipe) 3 - 3 1/2 turns then engage and use the PROPER size pipe wrench to make up fitting. The measurement comes out nearly perfect every time. However, when using screw pipe fittings made oversea's your lucky if they screw on one complete turn before you need a 18" wrench on a 3/4" fitting. I always insist on "AMERICAN' made pipe & fittings. There is a difference.
In PLUMBING there's a formula for everything. I use them all the time and it does save time and waste (money). I just need to remember not to use a black magic marker on newly installed sheetrock, painter's have hard time covering over.


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## Bayside500

does anyone have take off the measurements for pvc fittngs, i used to have a little book from charlotte pipe, but lost it many years ago.


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## nhmaster3015

Double-A said:


> Um... you folks are making things complicated and Killer, I'm not sure what the heck Spread and Advance refer to.
> 
> Think of a right triangle, 45, 45, 90. The two short sides are equal. The long side is calculated by using the
> Pythagorean theorem. The three sides are A, B, and C, so A squared, plus B squared is equal to the square root of C.
> 
> Now, think of a vertical pipe that needs to offset 6 inches. You use the 6 inches and multiply by 1.4142, and that will give you the center line to center line distance between the two pipes along the path of your angle, or 8.48 inches, which rounds to the nearest 1/16th of an inch, or 8-1/2". You have to compensate for the fitting make up distance, which is subtracted from that length.
> 
> BTW, your offset will always equal your rise and visa versa in a 45,45,90 triangle.
> 
> A picture is worth a thousand words so...
> 
> If you were to do as Killer says, 6x6=36, 36+36=72, the square root of 72 = 8.48528. If I then multiply that by 1.4142, I come out with something just under 12. That won't work, even after I subtract for the fitting make up. That's why I got lost.
> 
> Just multiply the offset by 1.414 and then knock off the fitting allowances or make up and it'll fit like it was made to go there.


There is an error in your calculation. A sq x B sq = C sq is the correct formula. You do not need to multiply 8.48528 by pi. 8.48 minus the make in is the answer.


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## nhmaster3015

Rolling Offsets

You need to find the true offset

True offset = square the rise
square the offset
add the results together
square that number

Constants for rolling offsets Travel = true offset X 1.413 45 degree

Setback = True Offset X 0.577 45 degree


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## Protech

To many constants to remember. I like my double Pythagorean theorem method.


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## Protech

That's why you keep a cheat sheet with all of your fitting allowances in your tool bag.



Matt said:


> Your actual piece will be shorter than your calculated traveler. I don't know of any fittings that make up all the way to center.
> 
> You guys already know this, some might not though....


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## TheMaster

I call that the "take out".


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## ILPlumber

Protech said:


> That's why you keep a cheat sheet with all of your fitting allowances in your tool bag.


i use a stick rule when needed. Been doing this crap long enough to know most of em.


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## braindead

Plasticman said:


> Worked for a guy who said he fired his leed plumber for trying to hold up 2, 4 inch no hub 1/8 bends and measure between them at the same time. AND was on a ladder.


Nothing wrong with that if you are really fast

I had a plumber working with me that was trying to plumb a vertical line that wasn't hooked solid to anything, he wouldn't believe me that it couldn't work


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## PLUMBER_BILL

In all this talk about 45 degree offsets and the constants used to figure them out. We missed something projection constants. ??? The amount of measurement the offset will add to the forward measurement. E.G is there enough room from the first fitting to get the offset in. 

I'm sure NH-Master will look at this. Maybe some others!
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ec...4JTIuNB4m-zgTRzcjKAg&cd=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

This will probably open on page 54 -- use the arrows go back to page 53
chapter ends on page 57!


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## ranman

i think its cool to lay out a entire system and cut everything and have it ready like a puzzle. i had just recently installed 15" iron system. i would like to see someone hold a 1/8 or 1/4 bend up for a measurement.

ya got to know the math.


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## nhmaster3015

I would love for you all to believe that I have all them formulas stored in my teeny little brain but reality is very different. At my age, remembering where the hell I left my shoes is an every morning dilemma. They came from a text book called math for plumbers, which I may add is a must text for anybody taking the journeymans exam in any state.


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## Redwood

Plasticman said:


> Worked for a guy who said he fired his leed plumber for trying to hold up 2, 4 inch no hub 1/8 bends and measure between them at the same time. AND was on a ladder.


Hire the handicap...
They are fun to watch...:whistling2:


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## aldenphac

The book to use is Mathmatics for Plumbers as stated in previous links. If I'm understanding correctly the distance of the upward path in an offset is called the rise measurement. "The actual distance the travel moves upward as it moves over to the new location" The offset or set as some call it, is "the distance the pipe line moves over" On a 45 degree offset - the rise and the offset are the same. If your offsetting 7" - you will also be rising 7" -(all c-c measurements). the above mentioned book is good and is illustrated. The only thing that needs to be mentioned is that there is a formula and constant for everything dealing with angled fittings in plumbing. It sounds confusing, but there is a chart that gives them all in a small amount of space. I use these calculations not only in my plumbing installations but in my duct work as well (HVAC) I'm the one that usually makes the mistakes, not the calc's. you really need to use them frequently in order to feel comfortable with them. but once you do, you'll always use them. I teach the journeyman's/Master plumbers exam and math is a major portion where I teach. http://www.plumbingzone.com/images/smilies/thumbup.gif


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## Don The Plumber

" The offset or set as some call it, is "the distance the pipe line moves over" On a 45 degree offset - the rise and the offset are the same. If your offsetting 7" - you will also be rising 7" -(all c-c measurements). the above mentioned book is good and is illustrated.


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## SewerRatz

R= Rise
S= Set
T= Travel


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## Oso

*Fitting measurments*



Bayside500 said:


> does anyone have take off the measurements for pvc fittngs, i used to have a little book from charlotte pipe, but lost it many years ago.


 Charlotte Pipe company has cast iron and plastic DWV fitting books have all the measurments for their fittings Oso:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## nhmaster3015

Charlotte will send you the books for free and it's all online as well.


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## PLUMBER_BILL

*Rolling Offset with framing square ???*



nhmaster3015 said:


> Charlotte will send you the books for free and it's all online as well.


Some good reading on this link 
http://books.google.com/books?id=DH...ook_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAw


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## plbgbiz

Excerpt from the Mathematics for Plumbers and Pipefitters book...


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## accobra88

A std 45 offset is 1.41 x run . A rolling 45 offset as this thread was tiltled

is travel = square route of the offset squared plus run squared. 

My 2 cents


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## ZeePlumber

There are a few guys here who are right, and they know who they are.

There are, for our purpose, two type of offsets we are concerned with (or sometimes simply called sets) rolling and standard, which some one already explained. The difference simply is the plane. If you really want to be able to understand all of this, take a trigonometry class. It will separate you from the herd. 

To understand this, hopefully you have passed algebra and understand the order of operations.
To symbolize the square root sign we type *√*, this means all of the variables and constants after this sign fall under this abbreviation. We do all the work underneath the sign first, then solve for that square root.

Where
S= set (offset), and 
D= drop

The parentheses mean that those values must be determined first. The mnemonic method for algebra operations are PEMDAS= please excuse my dear aunt sally. Parentheses first, then exponents such as squares, then multiplication, then addition and finally subtraction.

*45° rolling offset:* in words,
Travel= The square root of two multiplied by (Set squared + the Drop squared). 

In algebraic notation we write: 
Travel= √2X(S^2+D^2). 

Guess what? The square root of 
2= 1.414. 

Therefore, we can abbreviate this to:
Travel= 1.414 x √(S^2+D^2). 

Example: Set(offset or spread) =15"
Drop =10"
1. we first solve in the parentheses ignoring the inch for now.
15x15=225
10x10=100
2. Add these values together =325
3. Multiply by 2 = 650 
4. Solve for the square root of 650= 25.495"
5. Convert decimal to 1/16ths 
.495*16= 7.92 we will call that 8/16 or 1/2.
So the travel piece is 25-1/2". Not done yet.

Now for each end you would do your normal fitting take off, *before *you cut that piece. You will need the end to center (e-c) measurement take-off. They make handy little books with these measurements in case you didn't know. A 3" 45° cast iron no hub fitting take off is 3" e-c, you have two ends, so subtract 6-3/8" for a little play and cut your pipe.

This post is not easy to read nor is meant to be. I wrote this for the struggling guy who wants to feed his family. I wanted to show how a 45° offset is solved from start to finish no short cuts. The confusion here seems to be language and steps. However, the easiest way to any degree rolling offset regardless of the angle is this:
Travel=√A^2+B^2+C^2

The square root of (A squared + B squared + C squared) is always the travel piece you need, minus the fitting take-offs. Goodluck using this in the field, don't get too frustrated. By the way, when I became an apprentice, I could not even use a tape measure. I rounded everything to 1/4. I did not know how to add fractions, divide, or in some cases multiply by hand. I had a 7th grade education. I taught myself the basics and then took college classes. Worth every penny. I shine on regular because of my math. Quick and accurate, 10 outta 10. Want to be a leader (or keep your job lol) ? A competent plumber knows this better than anything, it is what makes him shine, know your craft, read all the manufacturer manuals. Buy trade books on how things operate. and how to repair them. Keep a pencil, notepad, flashlight and a calculator on you at all times.


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## ILPlumber

All that fluff.............


























































After re-reading it 16 times. You are not necessarily wrong. Just grossly overcomplicating it....

Take the square root of (A squared + B squared) x 1.41 Minus fitting allowances. = traveler.







ZeePlumber said:


> There are a few guys here who are right, and they know who they are.
> 
> There are, for our purpose, two type of offsets we are concerned with (or sometimes simply called sets) rolling and standard, which some one already explained. The difference simply is the plane. If you really want to be able to understand all of this, take a trigonometry class. It will separate you from the herd.
> 
> To understand this, hopefully you have passed algebra and understand the order of operations.
> To symbolize the square root sign we type *√*, this means all of the variables and constants after this sign fall under this abbreviation. We do all the work underneath the sign first, then solve for that square root.
> 
> Where
> S= set (offset), and
> D= drop
> 
> The parentheses mean that those values must be determined first. The mnemonic method for algebra operations are PEMDAS= please excuse my dear aunt sally. Parentheses first, then exponents such as squares, then multiplication, then addition and finally subtraction.
> 
> *45° rolling offset:* in words,
> Travel= The square root of two multiplied by (Set squared + the Drop squared).
> 
> In algebraic notation we write:
> Travel= √2X(S^2+D^2).
> 
> Guess what? The square root of
> 2= 1.414.
> 
> Therefore, we can abbreviate this to:
> Travel= 1.414 x √(S^2+D^2).
> 
> Example: Set(offset or spread) =15"
> Drop =10"
> 1. we first solve in the parentheses ignoring the inch for now.
> 15x15=225
> 10x10=100
> 2. Add these values together =325
> 3. Multiply by 2 = 650
> 4. Solve for the square root of 650= 25.495"
> 5. Convert decimal to 1/16ths
> .495*16= 7.92 we will call that 8/16 or 1/2.
> So the travel piece is 25-1/2". Not done yet.
> 
> Now for each end you would do your normal fitting take off, *before *you cut that piece. You will need the end to center (e-c) measurement take-off. They make handy little books with these measurements in case you didn't know. A 3" 45° cast iron no hub fitting take off is 3" e-c, you have two ends, so subtract 6-3/8" for a little play and cut your pipe.
> 
> This post is not easy to read nor is meant to be. I wrote this for the struggling guy who wants to feed his family. I wanted to show how a 45° offset is solved from start to finish no short cuts. The confusion here seems to be language and steps. However, the easiest way to any degree rolling offset regardless of the angle is this:
> Travel=√A^2+B^2+C^2
> 
> The square root of (A squared + B squared + C squared) is always the travel piece you need, minus the fitting take-offs. Goodluck using this in the field, don't get too frustrated. By the way, when I became an apprentice, I could not even use a tape measure. I rounded everything to 1/4. I did not know how to add fractions, divide, or in some cases multiply by hand. I had a 7th grade education. I taught myself the basics and then took college classes. Worth every penny. I shine on regular because of my math. Quick and accurate, 10 outta 10. Want to be a leader (or keep your job lol) ? A competent plumber knows this better than anything, it is what makes him shine, know your craft, read all the manufacturer manuals. Buy trade books on how things operate. and how to repair them. Keep a pencil, notepad, flashlight and a calculator on you at all times.


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## ZeePlumber

If you read this at all, I clearly stated it is not meant to be easy, it is meant to study, to understand more for the guy who doesn't understand what we are talking about, but to be honest this is how one actually arrives at the correct answer. By the way I spent some time on it to help people. I don't care if the guy who doesn't have the patience to read this gets it or not, this is what separates craftsmen from neck down guys. And I wish you would simply state that you were wrong about me being wrong instead of using ambiguous language . And, your answer would be correct but you come off a little rude, and go ahead and please read the entire post before you comment on others posts it seems you have done this before in error. Cheers!


----------



## Airgap

This is like "Daja vu", all over again.......


----------



## ILPlumber

ZeePlumber said:


> If you read this at all, I clearly stated it is not meant to be easy, it is meant to study, to understand more for the guy who doesn't understand what we are talking about, but to be honest this is how one actually arrives at the correct answer. By the way I spent some time on it to help people. I don't care if the guy who doesn't have the patience to read this gets it or not, this is what separates craftsmen from neck down guys. And I wish you would simply state that you were wrong about me being wrong instead of using ambiguous language . And, your answer would be correct but you come off a little rude, and go ahead and please read the entire post before you comment on others posts it seems you have done this before in error. Cheers!


Using the short formula is not "neck down" You are not some free thinking super power of plumbing IQ.

Nah, I won't be reading an entire 500 word manifesto of a topic that has already been explained crystal clear many times over...... 

I got to thinking about your novel and re-read it. While you are not necessarily incorrect. I liken it to performing dentistry through the anus....... It works, but it's a pain in the a$$ and it takes enitrely too long.


Use the short forumla and get back to work professor.


----------



## easttexasplumb

69 Posts about something every journeyman has to learn. :2guns:


----------



## ILPlumber

Everyone has to be smarter and explain it better than the last guy.

There isn't a day goes by that I don't see a guest viewing this thread.


----------



## ZeePlumber

ILPlumber said:


> Using the short formula is not "neck down" You are not some free thinking super power of plumbing IQ.
> 
> Nah, I won't be reading an entire 500 word manifesto of a topic that has already been explained crystal clear many times over......
> 
> I got to thinking about your novel and re-read it. While you are not necessarily incorrect. I liken it to performing dentistry through the anus....... It works, but it's a pain in the a$$ and it takes enitrely too long.
> 
> 
> Use the short forumla and get back to work professor.


 Ha ha, again I guess you don't understand what the intent is. Read it again, maybe you will finally get it. *I will spell it out for you*. It is not meant to be easy or quick This is how you arrive at the correct answer step by step, no ifs and or buts about it. The short cuts only work if you know the order of operations, or if you understand the language being used. This shows any one with any middle school math background how to solve for the answer. Do I use this in the field? No way, I use the same formula you use, well I actually use the any angle rolling offset, but whatever. 

Just admit you shot off your mouth before you understood what was up. Stick your nose somewhere else and be sure you are correct before you speak, now I have to get back to work Mr 5/10 guy lol.
-Cheers.


----------



## Plumberman

Ohhhhh boyyyy 


----------



## ILPlumber

How can I ever thank you for showing me the error of my ways........

Unfortunately I will stick my nose wherever I see fit. 

I have always understood what your intent was. I'm just telling ya, someone who is searching for the answer is not going to read your manifesto of 7th grade math.


----------



## Airgap

How can a 1 pound swallow carry a 2 pound coconut?


----------



## ILPlumber

Airgap said:


> How can a 1 pound swallow carry a 2 pound coconut?


That movie was made 2 years after I was.


----------



## ZeePlumber

I want to say, I got a little carried away ILPLUMBER. Thick skin is best here I see.


----------



## Airgap

ZeePlumber said:


> I want to say, I got a little carried away ILPLUMBER. Thick skin is best here I see.


Thicker the better......:thumbsup:


----------



## ILPlumber

Hop into chat..


----------



## Redwood

ILPlumber said:


> Hop into chat..


Darn Did I Miss It? 

I'd rather skip the math and watch an apprentice hold 2-45's in place while he tries to measure between them with a tape.... :laughing:


----------



## shock1964

wow, amazingly long post for a formula that ahould have been learned in school as a 1st year apprentice. :yes:


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## plumber666

80 posts over 2 years.


----------



## davisbrian

para1 said:


> Does anyone know the formula for finding the length of pipe (TRAVEL) between two 45"s. Thought I could remember it but I was wrong. :furious:


 measure center to center multiply that number to 1.4142 then take out fitting.


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## U666A

Seriously? Cmon mods, stop the madness! Put this thread out of it's misery!

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


----------



## SlickRick

Whut?


----------



## ZeePlumber

U.A.til.I.die said:


> Seriously? Cmon mods, stop the madness! Put this thread out of it's misery!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone



LMAO.... Seriously a good idea, this is a rough thread to make friends on. Learned my lesson though!:laughing:


----------



## 1vinooch1

*Rolling offset formula*

A rolling 45 degree offset is different from a 45 degree offset. A 45 degree offset formula is offset x 1.414. The rolling offset- is found using Pythagoras' theorem. This simply means that the offset squared plus the rise squared will equal the true offset squared. You then need to take the square root of the result to get the true offset.


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## ILPlumber

Why do people find it necessary to constantly repeat what has been said 20 times already in this thread.

Do you not read the other posts prior to posting?

Are you so prideful to think you can say the same thing better than it was previously?

Geesh!

ILP


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## U666A

Besides, he didn't finish the formulae, and no intro...

The following user(s) wishes to thank U666A for this useful post: Mississippiplum, Plumber71, DesertOkie


----------



## 504Plumber

1vinooch1 said:


> A rolling 45 degree offset is different from a 45 degree offset. A 45 degree offset formula is offset x 1.414. The rolling offset- is found using Pythagoras' theorem. This simply means that the offset squared plus the rise squared will equal the true offset squared. You then need to take the square root of the result to get the true offset.



Much easier to hold the 45 up, squint and measure. If necessary I hold my thumb up and stick my tongue out for good measure.


----------



## bizzybeeplumbin

ILPlumber said:


> Why do people find it necessary to constantly repeat what has been said 20 times already in this thread.
> 
> Do you not read the other posts prior to posting?
> 
> Are you so prideful to think you can say the same thing better than it was previously?
> 
> Geesh!
> 
> ILP


Where is that big awesome red work truck?!


----------



## ILPlumber

Sitting in the shop........


----------



## bizzybeeplumbin

ILPlumber said:


> Sitting in the shop........


oh that sucks! sorry to hear


----------



## user8031

This thread is hilarious! And if you still cannot remember how to figure your offset, just come on here and ask!!

Again, and again and again..................................and again:no:


----------



## Miguel

wyefortyfive said:


> This thread is hilarious! And if you still cannot remember how to figure your offset, just come on here and ask!!
> 
> Again, and again and again..................................ad again:no:


:laughing::laughing::laughing:
It IS a good thread in that it is circuitous which is good for any 1st yr that needs it pounded into his head (and many masters that somehow forgot).
It's been some time since I had to fit 10" steel pipe up in the open air (actually only once or twice) and THEN I had my calc with me. But for the most part just remembering "fourteen-fourteen" has been enough to get me by with my pencil on a floor joist or something. Simple math; mostly addition. And a rolling offset is the same as any other when in those conditions... why complicate things when there are so many static datums available? Just find the offset (usually easy enough to find without squaring a value... heck, dangle a plumb-bob if there are no walls nearby) and figure for a regular offset. 
All you have left is the ftg allowance and how well you measured the actual offset.
But isn't speed with accuracy what it's all about?

_*Edit:* This is a good thread to keep on top for our young up and comers, despite what an eye-rolling groan it is to us hardasses._


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## Redwood

504Plumber said:


> Much easier to hold the 45 up, squint and measure. If necessary I hold my thumb up and stick my tongue out for good measure.


I watched a guy do that once...

The really funny part was when he started fumbling with his tape measure... :laughing:

That's when we burst out laughing and the show was over...


----------



## seanny deep

Vetical rise squared divided by horizontal spread squared multiplied by 1.414. Is the formula for rolled offsets for those of You that missed it....Thanks seanny


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## ILPlumber

And yet we are still replying with the method.....

Nobody cares that this was sent from my droid using. Plumbing Zone


----------



## PLUMB TIME




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## 1vinooch1

123


----------



## O G

1vinooch1 said:


> A rolling 45 degree offset is different from a 45 degree offset. A 45 degree offset formula is offset x 1.414. The rolling offset- is found using Pythagoras' theorem. This simply means that the offset squared plus the rise squared will equal the true offset squared. You then need to take the square root of the result to get the true offset.


thats all good info but my question is ,what if u dont know the rise but u know the travel and set but when rolled 45 degrees whats the way to find the rise


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## U666A

O G said:


> thats all good info but my question is ,what if u dont know the rise but u know the travel and set but when rolled 45 degrees whats the way to find the rise


Excuse me, are you a plumber?!?


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## MarkToo

U666A said:


> Excuse me, are you a plumber?!?



Go to bed.


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## U666A

MarkToo said:


> Go to bed.


I can't...


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL

U666A said:


> I can't...


*This whole post reminds me of a trip to the Nibco Plant in Elkhart, Indiana*

*That evening the local association was wined and dined by excutives of Nibco. I sat next to the President at that time of Nibco. [time line on this was just as they were introducing their ring gate valve]. He asked me what I thought of copper piping vs threaded piping? My reply was "it makes a careless plumber" that caused a WHAT! My explantion was if your a little long it's nothing to cut a little off -- if your a little short you can cheat a little by pulling joints before soldering. So you guys, why don't you run a job in all threaded pipe. It becomes quite handy to know the proper formulas for parallel offsets. When the only fix is to cut another thread or maybe a whole new piece. Rolled offsets are even more important. You might even learn how to cut cockeyed threads. [1" - 4"] -- Now there is a lost art.*


----------



## easttexasplumb

Hey, does anyone know the formula for rolling 45s.


----------



## U666A

O G said:


> thats all good info but my question is ,what if u dont know the rise but u know the travel and set but when rolled 45 degrees whats the way to find the rise


...


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## U666A

easttexasplumb said:


> Hey, does anyone know the formula for rolling 45s.


It's like a regular 45 + a little... Duh!


----------



## easttexasplumb

U666A said:


> It's like a regular 45 + a little... Duh!


 
Does it matter if they are rolling clockwise or counter clockwise?


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## U666A

I'm gonna start a thread... Counter clockwise or anti clockwise!

I'll see YOU in the P&R forum!
:laughing:


----------



## TerryO

easttexasplumb said:


> Does it matter if they are rolling clockwise or counter clockwise?


That's easy, clockwise are all positive numbers and counterclockwise are all negative numbers. ;-)

Terry Ohlmann / www.ActionAirPlumbing.com


----------



## deerslayer

ILPlumber said:


> Using the short formula is not "neck down" You are not some free thinking super power of plumbing IQ.
> 
> Nah, I won't be reading an entire 500 word manifesto of a topic that has already been explained crystal clear many times over......
> 
> I got to thinking about your novel and re-read it. While you are not necessarily incorrect. I liken it to performing dentistry through the anus....... It works, but it's a pain in the a$$ and it takes enitrely too long.
> 
> 
> Use the short forumla and get back to work professor.


Thats a classic line!:laughing::laughing:


----------



## U666A

deerslayer said:


> Thats a classic line!:laughing::laughing:


Holy chit, I missed that too! :laughing:

Sick em [email protected]!


----------



## mccmech

easttexasplumb said:


> Hey, does anyone know the formula for rolling 45s.


Have never rolled a 45. Rolled alot of doobies however. Does the latter help at all with the former?


----------



## Fast fry

Plasticman said:


> Worked for a guy who said he fired his leed plumber for trying to hold up 2, 4 inch no hub 1/8 bends and measure between them at the same time. AND was on a ladder.


The last time I checked , I didn't become a plumber because I was a rocket scientist or at the front of math class.


----------



## The Job

I am a little confused about simple and rolling offsets. Can someone explain to me in laymen's terms?

Thanks.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

What do you not get. Rolling is the same as reg offset. Measure between pipes center to center. Multiply measurement x 1.414. Then subtract from that answer the take off for both 45s and that's your answer. On the test here you need to know how to convert from fractions to decimals and then back to fractions.


----------



## JWBII

If you read this whole dang thing they've said numerous times that a rolling is not the same as a regular offset....

Best answer I've seen is "I just ask my apprentice" lol

Pretty easy to be confused in this thread. But to ask for it in laymen's terms? You may as well just forget about it then


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL

The Job said:


> I am a little confused about simple and rolling offsets. Can someone explain to me in laymen's terms?
> 
> Thanks.


Assume you are running a horizontal offset

The bottom pipe is at 6:00, The upper pipe is at 12:00
That is a simple 45 degree offset.

Now suppose the lower pipe was at 6:00, the upper was at 12:10.

That would be a rolled offset and the connecting pipe would have to be a little longer. That's about as laymen as I can get.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

A rolling and reg off set are the same. You may measure for them differently but it's the same formula same way. Imagine the rolling offset on a flat horizontal plane now it's just a offset.


----------



## U666A

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> A rolling and reg off set are the same. You may measure for them differently but it's the same formula same way. Imagine the rolling offset on a flat horizontal plane now it's just a offset.


Wrong pythagorous...


----------



## user4

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> A rolling and reg off set are the same. You may measure for them differently but it's the same formula same way. Imagine the rolling offset on a flat horizontal plane now it's just a offset.


No they are not.

In a rolled offset you are changing both the advance and the elevation.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

I get that. What I ment was you use the same formula and same math. For a idiot just imagine it on a flat plane. Now it's a reg offset rolling offsets scare some guys. It's stupid it's not hard at all. Iv never had any plumbing classes no app school nothing and I can do it.


----------



## Gettinit

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> *This whole post reminds me of a trip to the Nibco Plant in Elkhart, Indiana*
> 
> *That evening the local association was wined and dined by excutives of Nibco. I sat next to the President at that time of Nibco. [time line on this was just as they were introducing their ring gate valve]. He asked me what I thought of copper piping vs threaded piping? My reply was "it makes a careless plumber" that caused a WHAT! My explantion was if your a little long it's nothing to cut a little off -- if your a little short you can cheat a little by pulling joints before soldering. So you guys, why don't you run a job in all threaded pipe. It becomes quite handy to know the proper formulas for parallel offsets. When the only fix is to cut another thread or maybe a whole new piece. Rolled offsets are even more important. You might even learn how to cut cockeyed threads. [1" - 4"] -- Now there is a lost art.*


The old timers call them drunken threads. If I am not mistaken, set the dial selector on a receeding in between two settings. I was told a long time ago and never tried it.


----------



## user4

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I get that. What I ment was you use the same formula and same math. For a idiot just imagine it on a flat plane. Now it's a reg offset rolling offsets scare some guys. It's stupid it's not hard at all. Iv never had any plumbing classes no app school nothing and I can do it.


It's not the same math, you have to figure the true offset, A squared plus B squared equals C squared, so the square root of C multiplied by 1.412 minus the fitting takeoff is your travel piece dimension.


----------



## user4

Gettinit said:


> The old timers call them drunken threads. If I am not mistaken, set the dial selector on a receeding in between two settings. I was told a long time ago and never tried it.


We called them crooked threads, just start your Ridgid 65 on the pipe at a slight angle and cut your thread, the result is a piece that will screw into the fitting on an angle instead of straight.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

Killertoiletspider said:


> It's not the same math, you have to figure the true offset, A squared plus B squared equals C squared, so the square root of C multiplied by 1.412 minus the fitting takeoff is your travel piece dimension.


Wtf are you talking about.I don't use that a b c crap. I measure between pipes c to c multiply by 1.414 do the fitting take off and your done. Rolling or reg offset it's done the same way. Y'all guys and all ur schooling makes you over think it.


----------



## U666A

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Wtf are you talking about.I don't use that a b c crap. I measure between pipes c to c multiply by 1.414 do the fitting take off and your done. Rolling or reg offset it's done the same way. Y'all guys and all ur schooling makes you over think it.


:stupid:

Seriously...


----------



## Relic

:lol::lol::lol::lol:ROFL this thread is too funny.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

Yes ua. I mean no disrespect to trade schools apprentice classes. Trust me I wish I had some my self but around here all apprentices are trained in the field in Dallas Houston Austin it's not that way. Any how. This how I was taught and it works for me I never said kts way was wrong just not how I do it. And that when I do it I use the same formula. Both offsets are on the txs jman test. Reg 45 in 3/4 blk and rolling in 2" cast. On the rolling I had to do more measuring to find the distance between pipes because ther was duct in the way. But once the measurement was found I use the same formula 


If you take a rolling offset and roll the whole thing( one pipe up and one down ) till it's all level then you have a reg offset. What's the difference Does any one use the 1.414 formula but me??


----------



## user4

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Wtf are you talking about.I don't use that a b c crap. I measure between pipes c to c multiply by 1.414 do the fitting take off and your done. Rolling or reg offset it's done the same way. Y'all guys and all ur schooling makes you over think it.


Have fun with that, your travel piece on a rolling offset is always going to be too short.


----------



## Gettinit

I just guess. Isn't that why the plumbing gods made unions?:laughing:


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

Killertoiletspider said:


> Have fun with that, your travel piece on a rolling offset is always going to be too short.


How do you figure. When I measure it. I measure it on one flat plane No diff to me rolling horizontal vertical. The relation of the pipes is always the same no matter how you roll it. I understand if one is off to the side then the pup piece is longer but it also means the distance from center to center is longer too.

Do you measure off the floor to find yours. Explain how you get you measurements plz


----------



## user4

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> How do you figure. When I measure it. I measure it on one flat plane No diff to me rolling horizontal vertical. The relation of the pipes is always the same no matter how you roll it. I understand if one is off to the side then the pup piece is longer but it also means the distance from center to center is longer too.


The answer is already in this thread, read the first few pages, in a rolling offset you are making two changes in one set, you are changing the both the advance and the elevation, you can't break it down with two dimensional math.


----------



## RW Plumbing

Killertoiletspider said:


> We called them crooked threads, just start your Ridgid 65 on the pipe at a slight angle and cut your thread, the result is a piece that will screw into the fitting on an angle instead of straight.


Or you could just buy a fitting from china. Those things are all tapped crooked.


----------



## TC27

Been a "read only" member for almost a year but had to make an intro post just to lol @ TX MECH PLUMBER. :laughing:


----------



## TC27

If you want to perfect your career instead of hacking it, purchase this book. It will help you along. 


http://www.amazon.com/Pipe-Fitters-Welders-Handbook-Revised/dp/0028025008


----------



## Gettinit

TC27 said:


> Been a "read only" member for almost a year but had to make an intro post just to lol @ TX MECH PLUMBER. :laughing:


Oh boy, you stepped in it deep.:boxing:


----------



## rjbphd

Gettinit said:


> Oh boy, you stepped in it deep.:boxing:


 Old School will be here to lecture ya soon


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

TC27 said:


> Been a "read only" member for almost a year but had to make an intro post just to lol @ TX MECH PLUMBER. :laughing:


Well good for you troll!! Why not shut up till you can give use full input to the zone !!

I was taught this way and I don't think yall even consider Thers more then one way to get this answer. I was taught by a retired texas plumbing board test examiner who helped write the masters and j man test here in txs so I know it's correct. 
I aced it on my test 
I keep saying make it one demential
Not two.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

TC27 said:


> If you want to perfect your career instead of hacking it, purchase this book. It will help you along.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Pipe-Fitters-Welders-Handbook-Revised/dp/0028025008


You have no place to say I hack it when your knew here shhh go play with the kids while us grown ups are talking. And that wasn't an intro. For all we know you a DIYer


----------



## rjbphd

TC27 said:


> Been a "read only" member for almost a year but had to make an intro post just to lol @ TX MECH PLUMBER. :laughing:


 I don't know you but, you are out of line here..


----------



## 504Plumber

Holy dog crap, all this over a damn formula?! Who here, when running 2" fricken PVC, measures center to center and breaks out their TI-87 or phone to multiply by 1.414?! I sure as hell don't, you know why? Because it is just as easy to hold one 45 and use a 6ft wooden ruler to get the distance. I could understand if someone was running some giant lines but to do the math for a rolling offset would take 3x the time when running small lines.

As for the tkc2000 guy, who the hell are you again? Felt like being a troll today?


----------



## rjbphd

504Plumber said:


> Holy dog crap, all this over a damn formula?! Who here, when running 2" fricken PVC, measures center to center and breaks out their TI-87 or phone to multiply by 1.414?! I sure as hell don't, you know why? Because it is just as easy to hold one 45 and use a 6ft wooden ruler to get the distance. I could understand if someone was running some giant lines but to do the math for a rolling offset would take 3x the time when running small lines.
> 
> As for the tkc2000 guy, who the hell are you again? Felt like being a troll today?


 Hey! Another 6 ft ruler guy here!


----------



## RW Plumbing

TC27 said:


> If you want to perfect your career instead of hacking it, purchase this book. It will help you along.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Pipe-Fitters-Welders-Handbook-Revised/dp/0028025008


If you came here to piss all over a member in good standing you've made a big error in judgement. Personally, you can stick your handbook where the sun doesn't shine... For the record, I know how to calculate a rolling offset, the amount of head pressure in a pipe or the pressure on any particular fitting in a plumbing system. You know what, it doesn't matter. It takes someone of real poor character to rub someone's nose in their mistakes. 

Your correction could have been accomplished in a hundred different ways, you chose the one that made you look like the biggest arsehole in the room. Congratulations!


----------



## 504Plumber

rjbphd said:


> Hey! Another 6 ft ruler guy here!


They're getting hard to find. Pisses me off to no end when I'm in a rush, grab a ruler off the shelf and its a brick layers ruler or god forbid some kind of engineers ruler. People always seem shocked when I start measuring but for small pieces of pipe it is the easiest for me.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

On 2" sometimes and always on 4" or more. I can have the answer and one correct cut pretty fast my fone is rite on my hip and i get it out like a gun ...I've seen guys cut long and dry fit or hold it over the pipe mark and cut again just to glue it and it be wrong There are times I don't use the math but it's important to know it so when your fitting with a welder, running,4" copper, or 12"c900 you don't waste pipe money or time


----------



## 504Plumber

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> On 2" sometimes and always on 4" or more. I can have the answer and one correct cut pretty fast my fone is rite on my hip and i get it out like a gun ...I've seen guys cut long and dry fit or hold it over the pipe mark and cut again just to glue it and it be wrong There are times I don't use the math but it's important to know it so when your fitting with a welder, running,4" copper, or 12"c900 you don't waste pipe money or time


I don't think I would ever have to worry about running big lines or fitting for a welder, I know the math I just find it easier to do it my way. I don't cut long, I get the measurement right and keep going.

Bit of a random thought, is it a bad thing that my Mansfield toilet threw a handle and I've been putting off changing it all day...


----------



## rjbphd

504Plumber said:


> They're getting hard to find. Pisses me off to no end when I'm in a rush, grab a ruler off the shelf and its a brick layers ruler or god forbid some kind of engineers ruler. People always seem shocked when I start measuring but for small pieces of pipe it is the easiest for me.


 Same here... only Lowes have them now, I but two at time as you never know it'll be the last one, one I keep in truck is with the little folding hook at one end and other end with slide out measurment, that's a harder one to find.


----------



## 504Plumber

rjbphd said:


> Same here... only Lowes have them now, I but two at time as you never know it'll be the last one, one I keep in truck is with the little folding hook at one end and other end with slide out measurment, that's a harder one to find.


I haven't seen them anywhere here, doing a remodel for a guy and he has one. Got my eye on it, still in good shape and its the brown one the numbers don't rub off as easy.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

504Plumber said:


> I don't think I would ever have to worry about running big lines or fitting for a welder, I know the math I just find it easier to do it my way. I don't cut long, I get the measurement right and keep going.
> 
> Bit of a random thought, is it a bad thing that my Mansfield toilet threw a handle and I've been putting off changing it all day...


No I've got a leaking waste and overflow iv been putting off.


----------



## 504Plumber

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> No I've got a leaking waste and overflow iv been putting off.


Just changed my handle, 11 at night. Really don't know what's worse, putting it off all day or changing it because I didn't feel like taking the lid off to flush it again.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

Ok. I need a life but o well

If the two pipes are at 12 and 6 in relation to a clock witch is a reg offset/ dropping offset and the measurement is 10" between them. Answer for your travel piece is 14 1/8". 

If the top pipe is at 12 and bottom isnt even on the clock but still the same distance off the floor then of course the travel piece is longer. But I dont use two demential math or formula to measure it. I measure in-between pipes center to center just like a reg offset If ther is an obstruction in the way I take the measurements from the wall and floor for one pipe and transfer that measurement to the wall with the other pipe then measure from that pipe to the marking I transferred on the wall. That gives me the distance between pipes center to center 

12" x 1.414 = 16.968 = 17"

This how I was taught and it works.


----------



## 504Plumber

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Ok. I need a life but o well
> 
> If the two pipes are at 12 and 6 in relation to a clock witch is a reg offset/ dropping offset and the measurement is 10" between them. Answer for your travel piece is 14 1/8".
> 
> If the top pipe is at 12 and bottom isnt even on the clock but still the same distance off the floor then of course the travel piece is longer. But I dont use two demential math or formula to measure it. I measure in-between pipes center to center just like a reg offset If ther is an obstruction in the way I take the measurements from the wall and floor for one pipe and transfer that measurement to the wall with the other pipe then measure from that pipe to the marking I transferred on the wall. That gives me the distance between pipes center to center
> 
> 12" x 1.414 = 16.968 = 17"
> 
> This how I was taught and it works.


That's where my notebook went!


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## Plumberman911

My friend TX, 

Why the greek language?? I'm english not greek!!! lol:bangin: Thats what I felt reading it. I'd love to know it but I'm lost


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

504Plumber said:


> That's where my notebook went!


Lol


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Plumberman911 said:


> My friend TX,
> 
> Why the greek language?? I'm english not greek!!! lol:bangin: Thats what I felt reading it. I'd love to know it but I'm lost


Idk. At least one guy will get it. I hope. A fitter would I was second guessing my self for a minute ther but. My way works. Just like the a b c way with the two demential math 

Two ways to skin a cat.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

U liket this icons hu??


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## Plumberman911

They crack me up.. I love it. I dont mean to annoy anyone. just find them funny. 
That was a good explination but takes me a bit to grasp stuff like that


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## Plumberman911

So i studied your picture, I get your math. Do you subtract anything off that answer for fitting lenght?


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Plumberman911 said:


> So i studied your picture, I get your math. Do you subtract anything off that answer for fitting lenght?


Yes the take off for each fitting I use a fitting book or just measure it. On a PVC fitting I draw a line on both sockets all the way past the turn of the 45 then measure from end of make up to 
Where the lines intersect that's the take off for one 45. Double it then subtract it from your answer and that's your cut length 

Remember when running pipe you always measure from the center. Imagine the pipe as a very fine line that turns at 90 45 or 22.50 1/2 copper or 15" c900 it's all the same. With these skills and more. A fitting book plumb bob ( laser bob) soap stone string chalk line clear lacquer paper pencil and tape measure you can layout a whole mech room on the floor and fab most of the pipe on stands then winch it up and solder or weld or victolic grooved coupling or bolt it together in the air the fewer joints in the air you make. The safer faster and better it is


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## Plumberman911

Im going to try it. That is cool, that has always impressed me about union trades I love to look at there work. I'll give yall that. hats off to ya


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Thanks. But I'm not union no unions here where I live. The big as jobs that done here have out of town union companies on site if they under bid us or we can't take on a project that fast. UA is def union and proud of it. I'd be too if I was but I'm not that's mechanical plumbing hydronic heating and cooling is what I like the most


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Here plm911 The coolest thing I did so far. Got in the basket and went to the top of control tower and put on brackets for defogger piping we did this tower a year few years ago.


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## Plumberman911

OH, well then thats even more impressive. 

Great work vary clean, straight and thought out. I like it:thumbsup:


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## Plumberman911

Awsome. I'd like to work with you a few days. my azz be laying on the basket crying get me down


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Thanks. It was fun. Hope ur sewer line goes good 


I'm done hijacking this thread


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## user4

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Ok. I need a life but o well
> 
> If the two pipes are at 12 and 6 in relation to a clock witch is a reg offset/ dropping offset and the measurement is 10" between them. Answer for your travel piece is 14 1/8".
> 
> If the top pipe is at 12 and bottom isnt even on the clock but still the same distance off the floor then of course the travel piece is longer. But I dont use two demential math or formula to measure it. I measure in-between pipes center to center just like a reg offset If ther is an obstruction in the way I take the measurements from the wall and floor for one pipe and transfer that measurement to the wall with the other pipe then measure from that pipe to the marking I transferred on the wall. That gives me the distance between pipes center to center
> 
> 12" x 1.414 = 16.968 = 17"
> 
> This how I was taught and it works.


You just explained exactly how to do it using two dimensional math.

Expand your horizons and learn how to do the math, in the long run it will make you a better tradesman.

I went from being a green journeyman to running high rise work in a very short time by understanding how prints work and how to correct the mistakes made by architects and engineers.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

I will give you that. I live to learn. And learn to live And know Thers a whole lot if plumbing math I don't know Il study ur post in the start of this thread and see if I can learn to do it that way. I wish I had trade schooling and knew more. Only problem Is the zone is my only source to get real live advice from. And I'm a hands on learner 

I know exactly what you mean dam engineers always have flaws in ther designs


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

I The root is the opposite of squared correct?? So you un square it rite ?? Your advance and spread are the same correct ??


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Ok. I think I got it done your way kts. I get the same answer when I do it my way and your way. The big difference I see is when you refer to spread your not going from pipe to pipe like I do but from pipe to the point directly under the other pipe staying level as you measure and then you measure from that point up to the pipe and get the advance measurement creating a triangle .... 

I can see an advantage to your way sometimes. If ther is an obstruction in the way. But I feel most of the time my way is simpler and faster with the same result

Not my way or your way but just two diff formulas to get the same answer


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## TC27

I apologize for being rude. Sorry Tex.


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## TC27




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## TX MECH PLUMBER

TC27 said:


> I apologize for being rude. Sorry Tex.


Apology accepted !!! 

No do me a favor and tell me did I do the math and formula correct using a b c square formula ??? I think I got it down I hate not know how to or if I'm wrong and not how to correct it


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Now that's some useful info rite ther!!!! Looks like a mc escher drawing at first glance. You know his art?? Il study it a bit and get back to you Lol


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## nhmaster3015

Here's the universally accepted method. " hey numb nut, cut me a gunner about two foot long " :laughing:


Here's the easy way. Get Pipe formulator for your tablet.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

No tablet here. App for fone??


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## nhmaster3015

I have it on my iphone


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

nhmaster3015 said:


> I have it on my iphone


What's the name of the app. I'm lookin at a few now


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## JWBII

nhmaster3015 said:


> I have it on my iphone


Is that the name of the app cause I just looked that up and no results....


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## revenge

pipe fitters calculater on google play


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## TC27

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Apology accepted !!!
> 
> No do me a favor and tell me did I do the math and formula correct using a b c square formula ??? I think I got it down I hate not know how to or if I'm wrong and not how to correct it


Looks right, notice if you would have done the conventional offset, your piece would have been 4 1/4".


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

What about an app with a fitting book for all the take offs. Ci lvc. Spears and other brands


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

http://63.156.201.113/081 PVC DWV Drain Waste Vent Fittings.pdf




Got this link but I'd line an app with all the manufacture specs. In it


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## JWBII

I just go to this site....

http://www.charlottepipe.com/

....then I open whichever product I want to know the demensions of and then click "drawings". That'll bring up a PDF for of the catalog and then I hit the option to open in iBooks. That will save Otto iBooks in your phone or pad and you can reference it anytime you like with or without the Internet.

I also bookmark sites with info I need most often such as American standard, kohler and zurn.....


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Thanks. Il try to figure out how to do that. Can I do that with the spears info ??


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Is iBooks an app??


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## JWBII

Yes sir iBooks is a free app for the iPhone. When you open any PDF file on an iPhone it will generally give you an option to open it in iBooks in the top right corner of your phone. Once you click on that then its stored in iBooks and you have it whenever you want it. 

Pretty cool, I have a complete set of plans stored in iBooks in my iPad. Sure made my ground take off and rough drawings a walk in the park to do. Not to mention preserving the life of my hard copy plans.

Oh and yes since the spears link you provided opens as a PDF then the same can be done to it


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Tried to get the app but I have to update my iOS to 5 or go for 6. Idk. This fone has endless tools I never use. I think I might go to the att store gut a software update and on the cloud. I'm not the best with these gadgets


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## JWBII

If you have iTunes the it's real easy to update. Hell it'll ask you as soon as you hook it up to your computer in iTunes and then do the rest of the work for ya. 

Do you have the 3 or 4?


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

The 4. With 4.1 software


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

I heard upgrading can mess up ur fone and loos all ur stuff


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## JWBII

That isn't necessarily the case. It can happen if you do something such as choose reset or if your phone was originally synced to a different computer and you are maxed out on the amount of computers it can be synced to then it may reset if you choose to do so. None of this will happen automatically. I had the 3 and went to update, when I did I accidentally chose reset and lost all pics and whatnot. 

I haven't had an upgrade mess up my phone yet so far.

Just pay attention like you coat work and from what little I've seen on here from you I doubt you'd have any issues


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## Plumberman911

The upgrade didn't mess up mine. 4s. 

Happy New Year
Tell ya now in case I fall asleep. Took momma on a date ate to much


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Thanks y'all. Updating my iTunes now  and then upgrade


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Happy new your to u okie


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

JWBII said:


> That isn't necessarily the case. It can happen if you do something such as choose reset or if your phone was originally synced to a different computer and you are maxed out on the amount of computers it can be synced to then it may reset if you choose to do so. None of this will happen automatically. I had the 3 and went to update, when I did I accidentally chose reset and lost all pics and whatnot.
> 
> I haven't had an upgrade mess up my phone yet so far.
> 
> Just pay attention like you coat work and from what little I've seen on here from you I doubt you'd have any issues


Thanks bro. Now I'm backed up on the cloud and 
Up graded to 6.01 software and got the IBook. This is the chit. No more waiting for it to load 

Would you know where to find a Kholer rough in book ????


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## JWBII

I don't know if they offer the book itself as an online deal but all I do is go to their site and punch in what fixture I'm looking for and then pull up the rough in guide for it. Once I do that then it can be saved in iBooks.

They may have it but I haven't really looked for it.

I do however have my bosses email me a copy of the submittals for whatever job I'm on that way I can open it in iBooks and have it that way. Much better for me that way. Then if I can't read it I can go to the site and look it up that way.

Here's NIBCO's http://www.nibco.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=1227


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## JWBII

rjbphd said:


> Same here... only Lowes have them now, I but two at time as you never know it'll be the last one, one I keep in truck is with the little folding hook at one end and other end with slide out measurment, that's a harder one to find.


Ok what's the main difference in the plumbers style and just the regular style?


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## U666A

JWBII said:


> Ok what's the main difference in the plumbers style and just the regular style?


I prefer to use the Oppan Gangham style...


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## JWBII

lol I can picture it now


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## nhmaster3015

So, if you go to the iPhone App Store and type in plumbing a whole bunch of related apps will come up including Koehler, sterling, ferguson and many more. Some are useful and some not so much. Plumbing formulator is very good.

I use iCloud for just about everything along with drop box. I have the phone, tablet and two lap tops all sync'd together so they can all access stuff from either the cloud or directly.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

JWBII said:


> Ok what's the main difference in the plumbers style and just the regular style?


What are y'all taking about. I'm lost


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## rjbphd

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> What are y'all taking about. I'm lost


 Lmao.. better check out the electricain ruler..


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## JWBII

Dang i meant to ask what the difference is between the plumbers folding ruler and the standard folding ruler.....

I should have proofread before i posted lmao, too funny now that i look back.


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## JWBII

nhmaster3015 said:


> So, if you go to the iPhone App Store and type in plumbing a whole bunch of related apps will come up including Koehler, sterling, ferguson and many more. Some are useful and some not so much. Plumbing formulator is very good.
> 
> I use iCloud for just about everything along with drop box. I have the phone, tablet and two lap tops all sync'd together so they can all access stuff from either the cloud or directly.



Yeah i downloaded tge kohler app and its useless to me. Not like its a rough in guide at your fingertips which is what i want.


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## 504Plumber

JWBII said:


> Dang i meant to ask what the difference is between the plumbers folding ruler and the standard folding ruler.....
> 
> I should have proofread before i posted lmao, too funny now that i look back.


The ruler I like starts at the 1" mark on both sides. They have tons of different rulers.


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## TC27

JWBII said:


> I just go to this site....
> 
> http://www.charlottepipe.com/
> 
> ....then I open whichever product I want to know the demensions of and then click "drawings". That'll bring up a PDF for of the catalog and then I hit the option to open in iBooks. That will save Otto iBooks in your phone or pad and you can reference it anytime you like with or without the Internet.
> 
> I also bookmark sites with info I need most often such as American standard, kohler and zurn.....



You can also go to order literature and request dimensional catalogs for free which are pocket sized. 

http://shop.charlottepipe.com/lit/c-9-dimensional-catalogs.aspx


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## JWBII

TC27 said:


> You can also go to order literature and request dimensional catalogs for free which are pocket sized.
> 
> http://shop.charlottepipe.com/lit/c-9-dimensional-catalogs.aspx


Yeah i just get em at the supply houses for free myself.


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## TC27

JWBII said:


> Yeah i just get em at the supply houses for free myself.


 That works as well.


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## TC27

JWBII said:


> Dang i meant to ask what the difference is between the plumbers folding ruler and the standard folding ruler.....
> 
> I should have proofread before i posted lmao, too funny now that i look back.



A plumbers ruler gives you your 45 degree offset on the reverse side. I don't know if there is a standard folding ruler. You can get mason's rulers, inside reading, outside reading.. and so on. I prefer the inside reading rule.


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## justme

nhmaster3015 said:


> Here's the universally accepted method. " hey numb nut, cut me a gunner about two foot long " :laughing:
> 
> Here's the easy way. Get Pipe formulator for your tablet.


Just got this app. It is a great tool to have thanks.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

justme said:


> Just got this app. It is a great tool to have thanks.


Is it only for the iPad. I didn't see one called pipe formula tor Thers pipe fitting calculator. Looks great


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## justme

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Is it only for the iPad. I didn't see one called pipe formula tor Thers pipe fitting calculator. Looks great


Search plumbing in the app store


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## JWBII

Is the app called "plumbing formulator"?


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## justme

JWBII said:


> Is the app called "plumbing formulator"?


yes , but when I was searching for it in the app store it wouldn't come up. So I searched plumbing and it was in the list of apps.


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## lead lover

The easy way to do it is get so piece of square stock such as drywall our ply wood. measure 1 offset mark that on the edge of the wood measure the other offset mark that on the edge of the wood, measure between the 2 marks,. that is your piece minus your take offs for fittings


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Wth. Rj is slipping bad. 


Easy way is for you to post an intro how you slipped by the guard dog for so long idk ???

After that we can discuss ur creative idea !!! Lol


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## rjbphd

lead lover said:


> The easy way to do it is get so piece of square stock such as drywall our ply wood. measure 1 offset mark that on the edge of the wood measure the other offset mark that on the edge of the wood, measure between the 2 marks,. that is your piece minus your take offs for fittings


 Loverlead, been here 6 months without posting a proper intro??? Tell us what you do or we'll dunk ur finger in the lead pot without water..


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

That would BURN like a SOB


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## Rando

lead lover said:


> The easy way to do it is get so piece of square stock such as drywall our ply wood. measure 1 offset mark that on the edge of the wood measure the other offset mark that on the edge of the wood, measure between the 2 marks,. that is your piece minus your take offs for fittings


 Finally.... I was taught the same thing except using two framing squares. no measuring, marking or math equations needed.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Rando said:


> Finally.... I was taught the same thing except using two framing squares. no measuring, marking or math equations needed.


What if its 10 in pipe 10 ft in the air in a mech room with a big piece of duct in the way ?? Tricks are great but the math is always rite and always works !!'


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## U666A

Rando said:


> Finally.... I was taught the same thing except using two framing squares. no measuring, marking or math equations needed.





TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> What if its 10 in pipe 10 ft in the air in a mech room with a big piece of duct in the way ?? Tricks are great but the math is always rite and always works !!'


Tex mex, either way you need to come up with 2 measurements; a horizontal offset and a vertical offset.

The trick with the framing squares works, you can do it with just one if you can simplify the numbers enough to make it work.

Good call.


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## Rando

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> What if its 10 in pipe 10 ft in the air in a mech room with a big piece of duct in the way ?? Tricks are great but the math is always rite and always works !!'


you don't hold them up in the air where the pipe is!! :laughing:

You are still using the math, the framing squares or marking the numbers down like the other guy said just puts the equation on a surface where you can visualize it without doing the formula.


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## rjbphd

Rando said:


> you don't hold them up in the air where the pipe is!! :laughing:
> 
> You are still using the math, the framing squares or marking the numbers down like the other guy said just puts the equation on a surface where you can visualize it without doing the formula.


That's when I use my laser folding ruler.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

U666A said:


> Tex mex, either way you need to come up with 2 measurements; a horizontal offset and a vertical offset.
> 
> The trick with the framing squares works, you can do it with just one if you can simplify the numbers enough to make it work.
> 
> Good call.


True but if you can measure for c2. Instead of using the formula to find it then its faster. I understand Thers two of sets but if you measure on a flat plane center pipe to center pipe you at removing one of those offsets from the equation just a short cut. Think about it. It works !!


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## U666A

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> True but if you can measure for c2. Instead of using the formula to find it then its faster. I understand Thers two of sets but if you measure on a flat plane center pipe to center pipe you at removing one of those offsets from the equation just a short cut. Think about it. It works !!


I am thinking about it... I'm thinking I can't make any sense of that post.
:laughing:

Can you explain that again?


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Ok. When you use this formula you are finding what the distance is from center of one pipe to the center of the other pipe. You use the horizontal distance (a) and the vertical distance (b) in the formula a2+b2=c2 to find the distance (c). (C) is the distance of the two pipes on a flat plain you then use (c)x1.414= travel piece ( of course subtracting the take off for the 45s ) and then you have you cut length of your travel piece.
In a square room with level floors (or a laser) this is the best way even more so when working with large pipe and when ther are obstructions in the way. By measuring off the floor and walls ect ect ect you can always find (a) and (b) 

But: for example when running pipe in a ditch and it would be difficult to find (a) and (b) ( not impossible ) its much faster to just measure for (c). I will lay in the pipe that will be down stream (dwv system ) from the rolling offset and run the pipe up stream offset wild ( extra long) so that the pipes are over lapping each other or use a 4' level , straight edge , ect ect to get the measurement (c) With copper. Steel c900 ect ect ( large or expensive pipe ) il dry fit a coupling on and put a piece off scrap pipe in. Basically any method to make the pipes over lap or any way to measure the distance on one plain center to center of course ( when in a ditch il measure top to top wich is the same as center to center and is more accurate then trying to eyeball center on both pipes ) after you get that measurement you use the 1.414 and ect ect ect. 

To put it simple If I can I measure to find (c) !!!!! I was never taught the a2 b2 formula except in geometry class in high school. I did know it was used in plumbing but I was taught the way I described by a retired state inspector/ UA union trade school instructor (Austin tx area) however I am very happy to know now how to use the square formula and know I wish I knew it in the past and will use it but if you can take one measurement (c) isn't that better then taking two (a) and (b) ,, not counting the measurements that you mite have to take to get just to figure (a) and (b) ????? 

Thanks to all the zoners that have useful input on this and all threads!! And even more so KTS posts on this thread. It was very helpful to learn how to use the square formula !!!!


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Of course most here know all posted above just trying to explain a short cut by removing one of the offsets in a rolling offset . or how I was taught at least


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## Plumberman911

That's interesting. I'm lost I need to try it and see. I kinda get the since of it. I'd really like to get it down. Sometimes it would help on a ground if you have to offset to get under a stem.


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## sparky

Plasticman said:


> Worked for a guy who said he fired his leed plumber for trying to hold up 2, 4 inch no hub 1/8 bends and measure between them at the same time. AND was on a ladder.


You can lay them out on the ground and get the same measuremen,just have to have something square to measure off of


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## Tango

Plasticman said:


> Worked for a guy who said he fired his leed plumber for trying to hold up 2, 4 inch no hub 1/8 bends and measure between them at the same time. AND was on a ladder.





sparky said:


> You can lay them out on the ground and get the same measuremen,just have to have something square to measure off of


Reviving an 8 year old dead thread, Ok sure why not.

I also worked in a sports complex building an Olympic size swimming pool and this 4th year apprentice (4th year for over 20 years who couldn't pass the exam) had a helper and both had 12" or 14" PVC 45s try to measure in between in free floating air on step ladders. He didn't know the regular offset and a rolling was alien space technology! Those fittings were around 2200$ each and had to be manufactured one at a time on a special order. I went there to calculate but the foreman came over to give me $hit because I wasn't at my post. Dumba$$es!


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## sparky

Tango said:


> Reviving an 8 year old dead thread, Ok sure why not.
> 
> I also worked in a sports complex building an Olympic size swimming pool and this 4th year apprentice (4th year for over 20 years who couldn't pass the exam) had a helper and both had 12" or 14" PVC 45s try to measure in between in free floating air on step ladders. He didn't know the regular offset and a rolling was alien space technology! Those fittings were around 2200$ each and had to be manufactured one at a time on a special order. I went there to calculate but the foreman came over to give me $hit because I wasn't at my post. Dumba$$es!


Be glad he saved you from screwing them up lolololol


----------

