# What do you mean I don't have anymore warranty coverage



## robwilliams (May 6, 2011)

We replaced an a/c condenser, line set and evap coil about a month ago for what I thought was one of our regular customers. Now, these people really needed to replace their gas furnace too, but they claimed they didn't have the money, so we reluctantly replaced the a/c only. Furnace is about 40 years old, but still had a direct drive blower not belt driven, so I felt like it would do ok. He called the past Saturday, telling me the a/c wasn't working. We went over to his house and told him the blower assembly wiped out the bearings and basically destroyed itself because he left it running. I know that thing had to be making noise, but this guy left it running until it quit. Anyway, I tell him now, his only option is to replace his blower assembly or replace the furnace. He said go ahead and replace the furnace. I get a call this morning from his wife telling me their son has a friend that has another friend that took a course in Lincoln Technical Institute and he can replace the furnace cheaper than I can. I proceeded to tell the woman, it is her house and her money, she can do what she wants. However, if this HVAC school graduate so much as touches any part of the a/c system, it immediately voids any warranty they had with us. The woman gets all excited and asking why. I proceed to tell her, this guy doesn't work under my license and insurance, so I don't care who he is. I will not be responsible for his mistakes. How do I know he is not going to short a wire and burn the new thermostat, or maybe he drives a sheetmetal screw into the new evap coil. I just cannot cover his mistakes under my warranty. I then told her, I hope the savings that he is offering is worth it. Actually, I also told her, if I would have known they didn't want us to replace the furnace, I would not have replaced the a/c a month ago. I would have told her to get someone else. Bottom line, warranty, yeah, I got your warranty, right here in my hand.


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## PinkPlumber (May 20, 2012)

Or he dumps all the freon and contaminates the lines....puts a few kinks here and there....nope....warranty goes bye-bye.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Lincoln tech must not teach business. Maybe your quote will show him what he could be charging.


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

I get that too....My friends, nephews, dads, grandsons, brother is a plumber. He said call him and he will walk you through it..I simply say thats ok. My dads, fathers grandson is a plumber and il call him if i need help.


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

nice


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

A nubie just out of school doing a change out?! Around here, even if he is capable and has all of the tools necessary (doubtful), you need a license to do a change out along with the math that comes along with sizing the system on paper. By license I do not mean the little card anyone can get for purchasing freon.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

If they were smart, they would re-think that one. :yes:


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

Gettinit said:


> A nubie just out of school doing a change out?! Around here, even if he is capable and has all of the tools necessary (doubtful), you need a license to do a change out along with the math that comes along with sizing the system on paper. By license I do not mean the little card anyone can get for purchasing freon.


consumers can just go online and buy what ever size unit they wamt. They can even order installation supplies and materials


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

It is called refrigerant. Freon is a DuPont brand name, specifically R-12. 

Where is the pet peeves thread?????


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

affordabledrain said:


> consumers can just go online and buy what ever size unit they wamt. They can even order installation supplies and materials


Sizing is still an issue and if the lineset is longer than the 410a system...they will need more REFRIGERANT. But, fair point.


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

The old timers will remember the quick connect Hvac systems from years ago.

Those were DYI friendly.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

HVAC is one of the trades where so many "experienced" master tradesman have no idea what they're doing. If this offends you, well.....

20 years ago, terms like "beer can cold" were actually being taught to apprentices and were in books(doolins). Those apprentices, 20 years ago, are now "Master tradesman" who still believe in "beer can cold". 

Students of today are learning and now understanding superheat, subcool, J and D manual, psychrometrics, electrical, etc. They may not have the time in the field but never let be the reason to discount or discredit them. BTW, the easiest thing in the world to do the HVAC field is a change out.....don't know what the problem is....probably the compressor.....you need a new unit. What size?....same size as what's in there now. Seen and worked around people like this time and time again. 

How did I come up with this theory? I was taught and used "beer can cold" for several years until I went to trade school for HVAC. I had more field time then anyone in the class but had a really hard time because I had to unlearn so much.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

gear junkie said:


> HVAC is one of the trades where so many "experienced" master tradesman have no idea what they're doing. If this offends you, well.....
> 
> 20 years ago, terms like "beer can cold" were actually being taught to apprentices and were in books(doolins). Those apprentices, 20 years ago, are now "Master tradesman" who still believe in "beer can cold".
> 
> ...


The same size that's in there now, you should know better, it is not always the case. That is like going off square footage alone. It doesn't always work. Both methods are wrong and a lazy way to do things. Maybe a furnace is not as critical as the a/c and in this one scenario he could go back with the same size since the a/c has been deemed adequate by the professional. The law around here you must have a license to install the HVAC equipment unless it is your primary residence period.

I agree with the rest of your statements though.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

gear junkie said:


> HVAC is one of the trades where so many "experienced" master tradesman have no idea what they're doing. If this offends you, well.....
> 
> 20 years ago, terms like "beer can cold" were actually being taught to apprentices and were in books(doolins). Those apprentices, 20 years ago, are now "Master tradesman" who still believe in "beer can cold".
> 
> ...



You are so on the money with your opening statement. When I decided I need a better career path I went to a local technical college and started in the HVAC program in hopes of becoming a tech. 

Learned very quickly that the guys I was going to school with, many with years of field experience, didn't have one clue of how a system worked properly. This was my introduction to the term "Parts changers."

I would say that better than 80% of them had a terrible time in our 2 refrigeration courses, and by the end, never really understood how it worked, and the right way to make refrigerant work. Shortly after I entered into a plumbing apprenticeship and said goodbye to the Tech school.

10 years later and running into many HVAC tech I would say that percentage still holds and is a little kind. As little as 20% of HVAC I know, truly know how a simple residential HVAC system works. The other 80% change parts and gouge the hell out of the customer. 

Many techs carry high end multimeters yet don't know how to actually use it beyond reading line voltage. 

When a tech has not done a proper diagnostic, but is walking around back with a set of gauges and a can of refrigerant, something not good is going on. 

My favorite question in that scenario is, where did the refrigerant go? It is a hermetically sealed system. If you plan on adding refrigerant, one of two things are going on. One, you are knowingly adding to a leaking system, or two, you don't know WTH you are doing.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Gettinit said:


> The same size that's in there now, you should know better, it is not always the case. That is like going off square footage alone. It doesn't always work. Both methods are wrong and a lazy way to do things. Maybe a furnace is not as critical as the a/c and in this one scenario he could go back with the same size since the a/c has been deemed adequate by the professional. The law around here you must have a license to install the HVAC equipment unless it is your primary residence period.
> 
> I agree with the rest of your statements though.


I was giving the scenarion that I see from other people. I was not using my sizing method which is a J manual.


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## robwilliams (May 6, 2011)

Gettinit said:


> A nubie just out of school doing a change out?! Around here, even if he is capable and has all of the tools necessary (doubtful), you need a license to do a change out along with the math that comes along with sizing the system on paper. By license I do not mean the little card anyone can get for purchasing freon.


 
I also spoke to the woman about getting the furnace inspected. I told her my price included a permit from WSSC and an inspection. She told me, this guy just graduated from HVAC school. There was no need to get the furnace inspected. She actually told me, this guy knows more than the Inspectors! I just said good luck with that! I am going to bet this replacement is going to be an 80% furnace and not a 90%. We were going to use 90% because, when we measured the basement, there is not enough combustion air for the furnace and the water heater together. But we all know, when a Hack replaces a furnace, he doesn't worry about combustion air, he doesn't have to. Codes don't apply to Hacks.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

AC? What's AC? 

Around here AC is the windows open and the fan on...its 59f right now and that's plenty cool.

Sorry, couldn't resist.


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

I will never understand. Why Techs want to hook the guages up first before doing anything else.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

affordabledrain said:


> I will never understand. Why Techs want to hook the guages up first before doing anything else.


There is a lot to learn from hooking them up if it is running. You can often times tell if the problem is in the condenser or inside the air handler, for starters. There is nothing wrong with hooking them up...I would just do a full maintenance before anything else but that is just me.


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

I look outside the box. No need to hook up when you first get to the site. I don't care if the unit is running or not. When I did my apprenticeship. The old refer guy that work at the shop. Would never take his manifold to the equipment til after he had looked it over and ran some basic checks


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Gettinit said:


> There is a lot to learn from hooking them up if it is running. You can often times tell if the problem is in the condenser or inside the air handler, for starters. There is nothing wrong with hooking them up...I would just do a full maintenance before anything else but that is just me.


Absolutley this is wrong, wrong, wrong. Hooking up gauges should be the LAST thing to do when diagnosising a system. By using a clamp on multi meter, psycrometer and soapy bubles, you can diagnosis a majority of what's wrong with a system. Don't get me wrong, there is a time to hook up your manifold but you better be connected to a refrigerant bottle when you do it.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

gear junkie said:


> Absolutley this is wrong, wrong, wrong. Hooking up gauges should be the LAST thing to do when diagnosising a system. By using a clamp on multi meter, psycrometer and soapy bubles, you can diagnosis a majority of what's wrong with a system. Don't get me wrong, there is a time to hook up your manifold but you better be connected to a refrigerant bottle when you do it.


Well, I am no heat pump pro, but I do ok. I have found many problems with just a simple maintenance and the gauges have aided in other things like, wrong refrigerant in a system, reversing valve stuck, and some others. I will not say you are wrong, just that its not bad. Adding refrigerant to a system as a fix just to add it, yes, horrible. 

Nobody mentioned using a temp clamp to check for a bad filter dryer.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

affordabledrain said:


> I will never understand. Why Techs want to hook the guages up first before doing anything else.


Why wouldn't you bring all your tools and use them...

If the system doesn't start that's one thing but if you are checking a running system that does not cool.... gauges are a must...

Reading both the low and high pressures will tell you alot about the system

Sent from my miniature laptop


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Why wouldn't you bring all your tools and use them...
> 
> If the system doesn't start that's one thing but if you are checking a running system that does not cool.... gauges are a must...
> 
> ...


let me rephrase. why do most techs think that that every ac call is a refrigerant problem


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

affordabledrain said:


> let me rephrase. why do most techs think that that every ac call is a refrigerant problem


Most times it's not the refrigerant ... Dirty coil ... Condenser fan motor... Capacitor or relay

Sent from my miniature laptop


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Most times it's not the refrigerant ... Dirty coil ... Condenser fan motor... Capacitor or relay
> 
> Sent from my miniature laptop


That was what I was getting at


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> Why wouldn't you bring all your tools and use them...
> 
> If the system doesn't start that's one thing but if you are checking a running system that does not cool.... gauges are a must...
> 
> ...


Critical charge is why you don't want to just stick your manifold on. That's why I said you need a refrigerant bottle with you every time you connect your manifold. Every time you incorrectly put your hoses on a system(as many people do), you lose some charge, legal to do but will hurt the system over time. Also, most leaks are from schrader valves so you put your hoses on and guess what,? you just covered up the leak.

Plus a running system that doesn't cool....

Low on refrigerant....don't need gauges to tell me that.
Dirty filter....don't need gauges to tell me that.
Dirty condensor....don't need gauges to tell me that.
Compressor not working.....don't need gauges to tell me that.
Blocked filter dryer.....don't need gauges to tell me that.

The list can go on. Your observations from sight and hearing and touch is the most important equipment to use. Like I said before, gauges are important but should be the last diagnostic tool to get put on a hvac system.

Plus, most techs don't know how to interpret the readings correctly to begin with.....AND, on top of that, without knowing your superheat or subcool, those pressure readings start to mean less and less.


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

gear junkie said:


> Critical charge is why you don't want to just stick your manifold on. That's why I said you need a refrigerant bottle with you every time you connect your manifold. Every time you incorrectly put your hoses on a system(as many people do), you lose some charge, legal to do but will hurt the system over time. Also, most leaks are from schrader valves so you put your hoses on and guess what,? you just covered up the leak.
> 
> Plus a running system that doesn't cool....
> 
> ...


Man some one that finaly exactly see my point

Thanks Gear


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

You turn your high side off and it takes the refrigerant through the low side, how much are you losing?

I for one never said either of you were wrong at troubleshooting I just said not everyone putting on the gauges is an idiot. I was also assuming the professional knew their job and knew how to interpret their gauges. I can't believe as plumbers we know but a professional HVAC tech would be clueless.


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## PinkPlumber (May 20, 2012)

affordabledrain said:


> I look outside the box. No need to hook up when you first get to the site. I don't care if the unit is running or not. When I did my apprenticeship. The old refer guy that work at the shop. Would never take his manifold to the equipment til after he had looked it over and ran some basic checks


We would usually hook the manifold up, glance at it, and start looking. Usually it was a dirty filter or coil....if refrigerant was low....recharge with dye, and come back in a week and locate leaks with the UV light.....that's when the repairs/replacement were discussed...


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## PinkPlumber (May 20, 2012)

PinkPlumber said:


> We would usually hook the manifold up, glance at it, and start looking. Usually it was a dirty filter or coil....if refrigerant was low....recharge with dye, and come back in a week and locate leaks with the UV light.....that's when the repairs/replacement were discussed...



Good point on the leaking valves and hooking the manifold....
We usually did things this way when it was super hot out, and system not cooling...if nothing obvious was found, and system was leaking out from an unknown spot....would recharge with dye and come back later, only because usually the customer didn't have the money to make major repairs that day.....so we would get them through the hot spell...emergency type stuff, and those are the days you run wide open changing out fried capacitors with the heat....


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Gettinit said:


> You turn your high side off and it takes the refrigerant through the low side, how much are you losing?
> 
> I for one never said either of you were wrong at troubleshooting I just said not everyone putting on the gauges is an idiot. I was also assuming the professional knew their job and knew how to interpret their gauges. I can't believe as plumbers we know but a professional HVAC tech would be clueless.


Plumbers are using their gauges to determine either the pressure or flow and usually just pressure. HVAC guys need to determine the state the refrigerant is in. This puts a whole new spin on things. That's why you need to know superheat and subcool. Besides, plumbing is so much easier then HVAC, both mechanically and electrically. 

As far as the pump down you talk of.....how much HVAC experience do you have?


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

gear junkie said:


> Plumbers are using their gauges to determine either the pressure or flow and usually just pressure. HVAC guys need to determine the state the refrigerant is in. This puts a whole new spin on things. That's why you need to know superheat and subcool. Besides, plumbing is so much easier then HVAC, both mechanically and electrically.
> 
> As far as the pump down you talk of.....how much HVAC experience do you have?


On the electrical and gas, brazing and electronics, quite a bit. On the refrigerant side not as much. I like many was taught to troubleshoot the way you describe. I have picked up quite a few little details when it comes to pressures, subcool, superheat, and saturated temp. I cut my teeth with plumbing and boilers/burners and progressed into the refrigerant aspect of HVAC. I am not as sharp at the refrigerant side like the others yet. Did I say something technically wrong? Besides your disdain of my idea that putting on the gauges? Maybe I was taught wrong that you can pull 99% of the refrigerant out? I only ask to learn, don't take it as any other way...:thumbup:


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## PinkPlumber (May 20, 2012)

I was in the HVAC trade first, then plumbing....plumbing is more fun...
How would you lose 99% or the refrigerant if you have your gauge closed?. Unless he meant a bad valve that releases it when you take them off...?


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

You best be hooking up gauges. 

At least you'll know it's way overcharged from the last idiot that was there.:yes:


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

RealLivePlumber said:


> You best be hooking up gauges.
> 
> At least you'll know it's way overcharged from the last idiot that was there.:yes:


Gauges do not have to be hooked up to determine a majority of problems. A multimeter and thermometer can tell you what you need to know.

Do HVAC techs not carry a temperature/pressure chart anymore?

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&sa=N&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&authuser=0&biw=1366&bih=639&tbm=isch&tbnid=0DKqdyr_02uC0M:&imgrefurl=http://www.arkema-inc.com/literature.cfm%3Fpag%3D60&docid=hYdXCHTeLS2KfM&imgurl=http://www.arkema-inc.com/literature/images/837.jpg&w=640&h=787&ei=ABjrT6vmIIfKqgHvot3XBQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=603&vpy=186&dur=1161&hovh=249&hovw=202&tx=118&ty=140&sig=108989763725384238104&page=1&tbnh=140&tbnw=89&start=0&ndsp=27&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:0,i:91


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

PinkPlumber said:


> I was in the HVAC trade first, then plumbing....plumbing is more fun...
> How would you lose 99% or the refrigerant if you have your gauge closed?. Unless he meant a bad valve that releases it when you take them off...?


Close the high side and it will suck it out of the gauges. It obviously wont get it all but most. At least that was what I was taught and led to believe. I think gear is about to school me. The reason for my belief is it makes sense and it was tested by me on an old system coming out. I did it with and without the method. Without, you will lose some. How much, I would suspect an ounce or two if checked once a year after many years, but I don't really have a clue. Anyways when took loose and left in the sun a few minutes the pressure rises a lot and quickly. By using this method it was a very noticeable difference. 

I will definatly be waiting on a response from Gear....or anybody.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Indie said:


> Gauges do not have to be hooked up to determine a majority of problems. A multimeter and thermometer can tell you what you need to know.
> 
> Do HVAC techs not carry a temperature/pressure chart anymore?


Most of the ones I have worked on has it inside the jacket either on the jacket or in a pouch with the paperwork.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

RealLivePlumber said:


> You best be hooking up gauges.
> 
> At least you'll know it's way overcharged from the last idiot that was there.:yes:


 As long as you understand that gauges cannot tell by them self if a system is overcharged.



Indie said:


> Gauges do not have to be hooked up to determine a majority of problems. A multimeter and thermometer can tell you what you need to know.
> 
> Do HVAC techs not carry a temperature/pressure chart anymore?
> 
> http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&sa=N&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&authuser=0&biw=1366&bih=639&tbm=isch&tbnid=0DKqdyr_02uC0M:&imgrefurl=http://www.arkema-inc.com/literature.cfm%3Fpag%3D60&docid=hYdXCHTeLS2KfM&imgurl=http://www.arkema-inc.com/literature/images/837.jpg&w=640&h=787&ei=ABjrT6vmIIfKqgHvot3XBQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=603&vpy=186&dur=1161&hovh=249&hovw=202&tx=118&ty=140&sig=108989763725384238104&page=1&tbnh=140&tbnw=89&start=0&ndsp=27&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:0,i:91


 The gauges are a T/P chart. It's just round instead of in a table.

Gettin, a teacher I am not, can't school anyone lol but you are right about the pump down but you have to use the refrigerant bottle....not to add refrigerant but to purge your hoses. You're supposed to use the shortest length hoses possible but most guys are using the 36" ones. You can lose quite a bit of refrigerant over time. Within a season or two definetly. The newer high efficent units are more suscetible to not a full charge....not a low charge. Lose a few oz or add a few to many and you see the performance go out of whack. The metering devices are supposed to cover that but for some reason, products of today are designed "exactly right". To much or to little and something broke.

In addition never go below 10 psi when doing a pump down to take your hoses off. 

The way that refrigerant acts in a hvac system is different then the way water acts in a plumbing system.


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

PinkPlumber said:


> We would usually hook the manifold up, glance at it, and start looking. Usually it was a dirty filter or coil....if refrigerant was low....recharge with dye, and come back in a week and locate leaks with the UV light.....that's when the repairs/replacement were discussed...


If we assume that it was charged correctly at installation. Than the system is experiencing charge problems. One needs to look for leaks before leaving the site.

The days of " gas and go" are long gone.

There is noway. I would drop a pound of more into a system and come back a week later to look for leaks


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

affordabledrain said:


> If we assume that it was charged correctly at installation. Than the system is experiencing charge problems. One needs to look for leaks before leaving the site.
> 
> The days of " gas and go" are long gone.
> 
> There is noway. I would drop a pound of more into a system and come back a week later to look for leaks



HVAC much like plumbing, is not represented by a majority of properly trained and taught technicians. 

In many States HVAC requires much less training to become "Certified" than a typical non-union plumbing program. Where does that leave consumers? 

It leaves them with technicians showing up at their door, having been field trained by someone who doesn't know any better themselves. 

I'm only speaking on my own experiences, and what I've read on various forums, and other outlets. Feel free to defend your friends if they are better equipped. 

In all it makes a case for more stringent enforcement by proper authority.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

True story

A HVAC tech with 25 years of very bragged about experience goes into a home with a heating problem. Its a boiler system, new enough to have a electronic control. 

Without putting one finger on it, he determines that its the control valve that has gone bad, and needs replacing. 

Homeowner asks him how he knows this without putting a single tool to the job, as she has been burnt by other who "Knew", what they were doing. 

His response "I've been doing this 25 year."


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

Indie said:


> HVAC much like plumbing, is not represented by a majority of properly trained and taught technicians.
> 
> In many States HVAC requires much less training to become "Certified" than a typical non-union plumbing program. Where does that leave consumers?
> 
> ...


There is way too many parts changers out there. Not many companies in my area that will actually troubleshoot a system. It is just swap parts til it works


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

affordabledrain said:


> There is way too many parts changers out there. Not many companies in my area that will actually troubleshoot a system. It is just swap parts til it works



A proper diagnostic may not yield as much money. 

Homeowner have been hearing the same thing so often they are fearful of calling a HVAC tech. Had many a homeowner tell me they don't want to call a HVAC tech out because all they want to do is tell them its an expensive part, or the system needs to be replaced. 



One guy I used to work with would have a bunch of open tickets with the words "Could not duplicate problem" as the reason for the open ticket. :laughing:

If someones furnace or a/c went out, there has to be a reason. After he was finally fired he opened up his own shop and is still servicing the area.


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