# Install issues



## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

I am a 3rd year plumber/gas just returning to work. First job back was to change thermostats on a system, with a friend of 5 yrs (a newly ticketed j-man), for a low mass primary/secondary system, and a llh to separate, with an indirect tank. Things are good, we fished wires from 3 zones I did thermostat end and my friend did the controller end. All was good, until fire up. Nothing is working except the indirect, and it was not set to priority on the controller. Plugging through and some testing later I find that there's a range of voltages coming out to zv end of the board even with no loads. Apparently the system had this issue before I got there, they failed to inform me. New board, no problem. 
My problem here lies with the installation of the system from what Ive seen, without looking through it. 1) The combustion air is coming from the unfinished basement of an air tight building. I was there last winter when they had their mid efficient boiler fail due to a roll out at the draft hood. (Their kitchen has a mua to compensate for the exhaust fan) 2) The zone valves are installed backwards on the returns 3) the pump is on the return of the secondary loop right before the low loss header (secondary loop takes off for infloor/slab heating loops from a manifold and a pressure balancing valve to connect manifolds. 4) minor annoyance, the make up water is on the primary circuit lol
My boss is from uk, where he apparently has done systems for years there, and we are backwards. Can't have a discussion with the man without him getting defensive and leaving the room. Last time I was suggesting that we test furnace heat exchangers by doing co2 tests instead of co or smoke. What do I know, 3rd year plumber and he is a j-man in the uk which my friend will follow to the end. Ive tried to have discussions with my friend and he just wants to install the systems, not understand them, sigh.
How do I protect my customer from a bad install, or am I over reacting?


----------



## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

Most of those are little problems, but I am surprised that he won't even have a duscution to you about how things are done. Have you tried a different approach, he might think that you just nitpicking everything. When it comes to anything safety, is where you should always put your foot down.


----------



## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

Thanks for the reply, would like to say I'll stop thinking about the system, but I'll try and find a way to learn the way he views the systems.


----------



## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

So I asked him about the pumping into the LLH and that I've only ever seen pumping away to bring air back to the header. He said the b&g manual designed it that way. I made reference to Gil and Yup, he said I find faults in every system and go looking for them, and he'll not listen to me on how to build them. I explained that I understand he's been doing it for years and I just want to further my knowledge from what I've leaned however brief it is. Calmed down and he explained that their is one air vent in the top floor of the home and he was worried about air locks through the other zones not knowing how things were run. I left it alone.


----------



## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

Can anyone shed more light onto how that would work? My logic of it is you are going to have a noisy system when the circ is trying to suck the water through, your pump is losing all its head on the LLH and air would be more easily removed if kept soluble by pumping into the zones.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Coolcanuck said:


> Can anyone shed more light onto how that would work? My logic of it is you are going to have a noisy system when the circ is trying to suck the water through, your pump is losing all its head on the LLH and air would be more easily removed if kept soluble by pumping into the zones.


Do u have Dan's books after reading them, throw the books at him..


----------



## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Think about this before you right him off as wrong what makes a fluid move in a system? How much fluid has to move to make it work? If the air is removed at the top of the loop how could you have noise from air?


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

wyrickmech said:


> Think about this before you right him off as wrong what makes a fluid move in a system? How much fluid has to move to make it work? If the air is removed at the top of the loop how could you have noise from air?


Not always true.. at the top where the pressure is lowest and water moving at slower speed.. will be a looong time before air get out esp when the pump is on the wrong side of boiler.


----------



## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> Not always true.. at the top where the pressure is lowest and water moving at slower speed.. will be a looong time before air get out esp when the pump is on the wrong side of boiler.


where is a air separator in a system, is it not at the lowest pressure point . So would it not make sense to bleed air at the high point and as long as it was positive pressure it would work fine. Most systems only need a ten pound differential to work properly as long as the air is gone the pump should make that. I have seen systems designed with pumps on the inlet or the outlet side,didn't really matter as long as you had flow


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

wyrickmech said:


> where is a air separator in a system, is it not at the lowest pressure point . So would it not make sense to bleed air at the high point and as long as it was positive pressure it would work fine. Most systems only need a ten pound differential to work properly as long as the air is gone the pump should make that. I have seen systems designed with pumps on the inlet or the outlet side,didn't really matter as long as you had flow


Its the pressure differatal(sp) at the pump makes the flow... where the pump installed on the system will makes or breaks the air removal.. pipe it correctly, you won't need the air scoop set up..


----------



## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> Think about this before you right him off as wrong what makes a fluid move in a system? How much fluid has to move to make it work? If the air is removed at the top of the loop how could you have noise from air?


There's one air vent and there is a manifold on the secondary piping for each zone


----------



## LIQUID (Sep 26, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> Not always true.. at the top where the pressure is lowest and water moving at slower speed.. will be a looong time before air get out esp when the pump is on the wrong side of boiler.


top of the system, is also where the air will migrate to and is easiest to remove. though you are correct there will be less head pressure the pressure at any point in the system should be sufficient to move the medium in the pipe ( water or glycol water mix ) 

and it doesn't matter what side of the boiler the pump is on, there is no "wrong" side though a pump installed on the return side may live longer due to not having as much bearing wear and such due to the higher temperatures. the problem exists that by putting a pump on the return side you are also inevitably pumping toward your expansion tank ( point of no pressure change ) and is bad practice. ( IMO )


----------



## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

LIQUID said:


> top of the system, is also where the air will migrate to and is easiest to remove. though you are correct there will be less head pressure the pressure at any point in the system should be sufficient to move the medium in the pipe ( water or glycol water mix ) and it doesn't matter what side of the boiler the pump is on, there is no "wrong" side though a pump installed on the return side may live longer due to not having as much bearing wear and such due to the higher temperatures. the problem exists that by putting a pump on the return side you are also inevitably pumping toward your expansion tank ( point of no pressure change ) and is bad practice. ( IMO )


the pressure tank connection point is always on the return or lowest pressure point. We use air separators on almost every system and the connection for makeup water and expansion tank is on the top of the tank.


----------



## LIQUID (Sep 26, 2013)

You ideally want to separate the air at the hottest point in the system, directly on the downstream side of the boiler, this is also where the Expansion tank and the boiler make up water will connect ideally. ( I assume you mean expansion tank when you say pressure tank ? ) all boilers need expansion tank and a means to remove the system air. ( usually happens at the same point by means of a micro bubble resovoir, or more commonly an air scoop or on resi sometimes just an auto vent. 

this is also where we remove our air from as the water pressure incoming is sufficient to push enough air through and out of the system and the circulator can function then to cycle the zones and press out any small remaining air. the only exception to this is where we install baseboards usually.


----------



## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

LIQUID said:


> You ideally want to separate the air at the hottest point in the system, directly on the downstream side of the boiler, this is also where the Expansion tank and the boiler make up water will connect ideally. ( I assume you mean expansion tank when you say pressure tank ? ) all boilers need expansion tank and a means to remove the system air. ( usually happens at the same point by means of a micro bubble resovoir, or more commonly an air scoop or on resi sometimes just an auto vent. this is also where we remove our air from as the water pressure incoming is sufficient to push enough air through and out of the system and the circulator can function then to cycle the zones and press out any small remaining air. the only exception to this is where we install baseboards usually.


yes I meant a expansion tank the air separator is normally located on the suction side of the pump no matter where it is on the boiler. The other name would be roll a troll it is a step beyond a air scoop. There is two types of air removal, one you put the expansion tank higher than the top of the air separator and two you use a bladder type expansion tank with a high capacity air bleeder. I don't think heat has anything to do with air removal if that were true chill water would be difficult to deal with


----------



## LIQUID (Sep 26, 2013)

hotter water is less dense and gives up air easyer IMO but regardless....


----------



## battleplumbing (Oct 10, 2013)

You have said it is a air tight room going in to the basement. Gas need ventilation for correct combustion the formula for gas ventilation is (A=3*T) for venting directly to out side. (A=6*t) from an adjacent room then (A=3*T) to out side. Also you need an openings 5% for the top of the ceiling to the opening of the vent and an opening 5% from the floor to the opening of the vent. 5% is the total height of the room.
For correct ventilation
A= area of the opening of ventalation in CM squared
T= MJ/HR input of the unit
eg: 150 MJ/HR*3=450 cm squared opening
150 MJ/HR*6=900 cm squared opening
All ways needs to vented to out side for correct combustion 
I hope this helps and it is the same in your gas regulation this come from our regulations from Australia.


----------

