# Three water heaters in five years



## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

Got a call today from a HO that has three new water heaters installed in the last five years. They are frustrated with the current plumbing company over not returning calls concerning the issues so they asked around and were referred to my company. 
This Friday I have an appointment to check out the system. 
This is what I have so far from talking with the customer. 
50 gallon BW gas heater 
Leaks have all been at the top of the tank
Gas line is bonded
Water pressure is between the normal range according to the last plumber
The house has a PRV installed. The rep told them it's a closed loop system and needed an expansion tank and that was the issue. I may be wrong on this but PRV are not a check valve and flow both directions?
Neighbors have not had similar issues with their water heaters and all have PRVs as well. 
Your thoughts please?


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## Chadillac80 (Dec 22, 2012)

HSI said:


> Got a call today from a HO that has three new water heaters installed in the last five years. They are frustrated with the current plumbing company over not returning calls concerning the issues so they asked around and were referred to my company.
> This Friday I have an appointment to check out the system.
> This is what I have so far from talking with the customer.
> 50 gallon BW gas heater
> ...


Water softener? I would def. ck the water quality and hardness. As for the expansion tank...Its a must have on closed systems. Also what about the venting for the unit? Here it has to be a min of 5 feet in total vertical length. If not condensation running down on the unit will pose multiple problems.


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## suzie (Sep 1, 2010)

HSI,

I am a bit confused on the details can you relay more information?


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

They do have a softener and it was planning to check the hardness on my visit.


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

suzie said:


> HSI, I am a bit confused on the details can you relay more information?


That's all I have until I visit this Friday


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

Chadillac80 said:


> Water softner? I would def. ck the water quality and hardness. As for the expansion tank...Its a must have on closed system. Also what about the venting for the unit? Here it has to be a min of 5 feet in total vertical length. If not condensation running down on the unit will pose multiple problems.


I agree on the closed loop. A PRV does not create a closed loop system. I will see for sure what PRV they have but am not aware of any that are check valves.


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## Chadillac80 (Dec 22, 2012)

HSI said:


> I agree on the closed loop. A PRV does not create a closed loop system. I will see for sure what PRV they have but am not aware of any that are check valves.


Here in Texas they put check valves on the city meter making the plumbing system closed. Not sure if that applies to your situation.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

If the incoming pressure (before the PRV) is higher than the pressure being created in the tank that pressure isn't flowing backward through the PRV. Just because they claim the heaters have a working pressure up to 150 they will fail prematurely with much less. I say (from info given) expansion tank would be first step, of course you could run the whole tank out and hook up a gauge and see what it does. Around here it is not uncommon to have street pressure 100+ many times 125-150 therefore not much pressure is being relieved through the PRV. Also I believe (may be wrong) SOME PRVs do not allow water to pass backward. My two cents...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Put an expansion tank on it!


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

love2surf927 said:


> If the incoming pressure (before the PRV) is higher than the pressure being created in the tank that pressure isn't flowing backward through the PRV. Just because they claim the heaters have a working pressure up to 150 they will fail prematurely with much less. I say (from info given) expansion tank would be first step, of course you could run the whole tank out and hook up a gauge and see what it does. Around here it is not uncommon to have street pressure 100+ many times 125-150 therefore not much pressure is being relieved through the PRV. Also I believe (may be wrong) SOME PRVs do not allow water to pass backward. My two cents...


Makes sense with expansion tank on a PRV. I have seen pressures up to 105 psi in certain areas. With that kinda pressure a check valve wouldn't really matter. Thanks.


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

Redwood said:


> Put an expansion tank on it!


The last tank they installed they put an expansion tank on it.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

HSI said:


> The last tank they installed they put an expansion tank on it.


Yeah, but, have the bladder been checked to match the incoming pressure?? If no pressure, the tank is useless... furthermore, is the house plumbing hardpiped like copper?? If so.. several precharged chambers may be needed to aborbs the water shock which the bladder tank cannot do.


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## Chadillac80 (Dec 22, 2012)

Just sell them a tankless...


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Yeah, but, have the bladder been checked to match the incoming pressure?? If no pressure, the tank is useless... furthermore, is the house plumbing hardpiped like copper?? If so.. several precharged chambers may be needed to aborbs the water shock which the bladder tank cannot do.


And always remember to precharge the tank, I think a lot of guys just install them but don't charge it accordingly, they are precharged but they need to be adjusted depending on the incoming pressure.


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

I definitely agree with the expansion tank. I've seen 4 water heaters this winter that have leaked after 3-5 years because they have softening systems. I've told the customers about anodes and maintenance, I don't get the impression they get it. I talked to the boss about it and he explains that the customers don't like maintenance costs. It seems so simple to me... All these efficiency products, high eff furnaces, tankless, softeners are they worth it when you factor in maintenance costs, service calls? This company is big on service agreements, it's the bread and butter. I would like to see anodes thrown in with them.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

We are having fits with Bradford white water heaters installed with a water softener.....every last one has never lasted out the warranty.......

if there is no water softener, the BW last forever ....

we are literally changing them out from 2009 left and right.... all with water softeners..... YES they have expansion tanks 


The sodium in the soft water is truning these heaters into something like "potato batteries" there is some sort of electrical charge taking place in them and eating them alive


Also, I think that the Bradfords are not made with enough inner glass liner like the Rheem units.... it is either that or it is the Crappy STEEL that they presently are using for the past 6 years must from China???



You probably need to install *flexible supplies* to the heater to break the ground to the heater.... You might want to call in an electricain to check the grounding in the home.....
http://www.weilhammerplumbing.com/generalinfo/

We are not having a single proble with the Rheem heaters
and I have rarely changed out any under warranty

Tell them to try a Rheem heater and see what happens


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

^^^^^ interesting thanks Mark.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Master Mark said:


> We are having fits with Bradford white water heaters installed with a water softener.....every last one has never lasted out the warranty.......
> 
> if there is no water softener, the BW last forever ....
> 
> ...


I've never heard of this either. Very interesting, indeed, Mark.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Master Mark said:


> We are having fits with Bradford white water heaters installed with a water softener.....every last one has never lasted out the warranty.......
> 
> if there is no water softener, the BW last forever ....
> 
> ...


What's up with the Randy Newman video? Stating your own personal philosophy, only money matters and at heart you're a disco master?


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

I though BW only used domestic sourced steel for their tanks, no?


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Chadillac80 said:


> Just sell them a tankless...


ohhellno....:laughing:

My first thought was that the customer is a wacko, so a tankless would be a never-ending callback. My money is on the wacko thing. 

I knew a girl in high school with three nipples. The third one was dead center between the two. At first I thought it was cool, but I got it into my head (thanks to buddy Roger) that she was a alien.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

HSI said:


> I agree on the closed loop. A PRV does not create a closed loop system. I will see for sure what PRV they have but am not aware of any that are check valves.


prvs that do not have a built in bypass are a closed loop system,it sounds like this is what is happening,put a prv in with a built in bypass plus install a properly sized expansion tank and don't forget to set the air pressure in the exp, tank to whatever the incoming water pressure is.that should help a lot.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> We are having fits with Bradford white water heaters installed with a water softener.....every last one has never lasted out the warranty.......
> 
> if there is no water softener, the BW last forever ....
> 
> ...


yes thanks mark,that is mind boggling to say the least,but I would have never guessed that the sodium was doing that,just goes to show you never know what you might run into.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

PRV no by-pass = closed system and Thermal Expansion issues. You would be surprised how many plumbers install tanks without setting the air pressure properly. " It says pre-charged" and they thinks that's it. Or they become waterlogged.


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Plumber said:


> ohhellno....:laughing: My first thought was that the customer is a wacko, so a tankless would be a never-ending callback. My money is on the wacko thing.  I knew a girl in high school with three nipples. The third one was dead center between the two. At first I thought it was cool, but I got it into my head (thanks to buddy Roger) that she was a alien.


Thanks for the sig line!


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> What's up with the Randy Newman video? Stating your own personal philosophy, only money matters and at heart you're a disco master?


 
it is just stuff...BS.. a blast from the past...
a trip down memory lane..... 

its all in fun, if some potential customer dont like it I probably would not get along with them anyway cause they dont have a sense of humor.. 

it keeps folks entertained..
and then they want to meet the dumbass that
put all that stuff on the web site....



We change out a whole lot of bradfords, up to 4 
a week on average... some of them were ours and lots of 
them from other plumbers.... if they go out early its always
got a water softerner in line....



Its a trend that I see happenning a lot here
so you figure it out


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## PlumbDumber (Aug 7, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> We are having fits with Bradford white water heaters installed with a water softener.....every last one has never lasted out the warranty.......
> 
> if there is no water softener, the BW last forever ....
> 
> ...


How hard is your water there? Water softeners exchange/replace each ion of calcium or magnesium with an ion of sodium (or potassium). Each grain of hardness is equivalent to 17.1 PPM. Ten grains of hardness would be 171 PPM of hardness being replaced with 171 PPM of sodium.

It would seem to me that unless you have extremely hard water, there should not be a problem with the water if the softener is working correctly.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

In my area,

If you lay claim to a warranty issue regarding a leaking BW heater, IF they find out there's a water softener in the system, they will not cover the warranty of tank replacement. 

It's been like that for years in my area. Mark hits the mark on his statements. 

I do not believe any BW heater gets glass lined. It's impossible to find a Rheem here in these parts.


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

I've been told, by the boss saying he talked to a rep. When they spray the inside of tanks there are bubbles in the liner. Typically when the bubbles pop the hardness deposits in these spots and slows deterioration. With a softener there is no scaling and the tank rusts out quicker.


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

I tell people that a softener extends the life of fixtures. This is the second time I have heard this. Does anyone have some science behind why soft water would shorten a tanks life span...


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

Coolcanuck said:


> I've been told, by the boss saying he talked to a rep. When they spray the inside of tanks there are bubbles in the liner. Typically when the bubbles pop the hardness deposits in these spots and slows deterioration. With a softener there is no scaling and the tank rusts out quicker.


Maybe that would explain a glass lined tank would last longer????

If Bradford white isn't glass lined, what is it sprayed with?


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

redbeardplumber said:


> Maybe that would explain a glass lined tank would last longer????
> 
> If Bradford white isn't glass lined, what is it sprayed with?


Had to google it, rheem has a nice explanation http://www.rheem.com/docs/FetchDocument.aspx?ID=aedbbc95-9a6b-4780-aa23-b0ed9abe41cd


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

redbeardplumber said:


> I tell people that a softener extends the life of fixtures. This is the second time I have heard this. Does anyone have some science behind why soft water would shorten a tanks life span...


Simple. Softener increase conductivity of the water. This increases galvanic corrosion to the tank. First year then anode is gone. Now the tank is the anode. By year 2 or 3 it's done.


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

It's all trade offs on costs, proper maintenance and softeners are great. Some of the stuff I've read says not to even bother unless water is extremely hard >10 Our purveyor is delivering around 14 I've been told, their reports indicate 189ppm. In starting to look at systems, probably do a softener with a bypass for irrigation and kitchen sink dcw, having a RO system at point of use. We use a Brita for chlorine smells but it's a pain, I have a friend that knows a guy .... He doesn't like to work at home though.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> In my area,
> 
> If you lay claim to a warranty issue regarding a leaking BW heater, IF they find out there's a water softener in the system, they will not cover the warranty of tank replacement.
> 
> ...



DUNBAR... I have never heard of BW not taking back leaking warranty heaters....if a water softener is involved... that is new to me...


In INDIANAPOLIS, the average hardness of the water is about 22 parts hard ... in some parts of town it hits 28.....basically the water is hard as hell.... all the fixtures look like crap only after a few years...all scaled up with lime deposits.... Kentucky might be better or worse...??

Like I stated, we change out tons of bradfords,, but I dont think I have changed out a RHEEM since maybe last August. Rheem has a better quality steel or glass liner.... 


an old high school experiment comes to mind.....

if you take a glass of water and put two wires into the glass then test it with an ohm meter, you will not get 
a current ..... 
Then If you throw a little salt into the glass
and mix it up, you will get a slight reading across the wires..... salt creates electrical conductivity 

this is no different than a water heater full of soft water , then if you have a bad ground on the home or the home is grounded to the SOFT side of the copper plumbing system, it all grounds itself into the heater.
and then the heater is really catching hell.....



on a sidenote, 
Tankless heaters really dont do well in our 
area at all.

.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Coolcanuck said:


> I've been told, by the boss saying he talked to a rep. When they spray the inside of tanks there are bubbles in the liner. Typically when the bubbles pop the hardness deposits in these spots and slows deterioration. With a softener there is no scaling and the tank rusts out quicker.


This is exactly how it was explained to me by a rep except that the scale building up on the cavities caused the tank to corrode quicker and a softner helped it. This is all news to me.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> on a sidenote,
> Tankless heaters really dont do well in our
> area at all.
> 
> .


yes,im across the river over here in ky and tankless waterheaters do not do good over here either,by the time you buy one and pay for it to be installed,you could buy and install 3tank type heaters,thanks for the science experiment also:thumbsup:


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

What was the problem?


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I can understand the water condition and maybe acidic condensation and softner stuff, but someone explain to me how a tank rated at 200 lbs would be ill affected by pressures differently if we are talking under 150 lbs. Past 125 the relief valve blows anyway.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I do not believe any BW heater gets glass lined.


Really?

The process they use seems to be remarkably similar to the "Glass Lining" used by all the other manufacturers...

The "Glass" is sprayed on then fired in an oven...

http://bradfordwhite.com/vitraglas-tank-protection

We've got Vitra-Glass, Blue Diamond-Glass, C-Glass and you name it...
Our sprayed on glass coating is better than your sprayed on glass coating...:laughing:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

stillaround said:


> I can understand the water condition and maybe acidic condensation and softner stuff, but someone explain to me how a tank rated at 200 lbs would be ill affected by pressures differently if we are talking under 150 lbs. Past 125 the relief valve blows anyway.


Where I have ran into this situation was on a closed system. When I cut the water heater apart, they had failed at the weld around the thread o lets. The liner was defective at that weld. Installed TET, and the last one has been in there for 6 yrs now.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

SlickRick said:


> Were I have ran into this situation was on a closed system. When I cut the water heater apart, they had failed at the weld around the thread o lets. The liner was defective at that weld. Installed TET, and the last one has been in there for 6 yrs now.


what is tet???


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

sparky said:


> what is tet???


To lazy to spell out Thermal Expansion Tank.


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

SlickRick said:


> Were I have ran into this situation was on a closed system. When I cut the water heater apart, they had failed at the weld around the thread o lets. The liner was defective at that weld. Installed TET, and the last one has been in there for 6 yrs now.


Just did a rheem last week, leaking at the dhw nipple connection, looked like the weld but hard to tell. No softener, open supply. The nipple was full of corrosion, and the tank was only 2 years old. They used a copper FIP for the tank connection. I like brass, guys I work with like die electric unions.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Coolcanuck said:


> Just did a rheem last week, leaking at the dhw nipple connection, looked like the weld but hard to tell. No softener, open supply. The nipple was full of corrosion, and the tank was only 2 years old. They used a copper FIP for the tank connection. I like brass, guys I work with like die electric unions.


We have discussed the " supposed " dielectric nipples used in wh's many times.


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

SlickRick said:


> We have discussed the " supposed " dielectric nipples used in wh's many times.


Always a topic everywhere you go.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

HSI said:


> Got a call today from a HO that has three new water heaters installed in the last five years. They are frustrated with the current plumbing company over not returning calls concerning the issues so they asked around and were referred to my company.
> This Friday I have an appointment to check out the system.
> This is what I have so far from talking with the customer.
> 50 gallon BW gas heater
> ...


HSI! What was the problem?


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Water softeners will not allow for water to vent itself or release pressure back into the main. Inside the water softener there I a check valve otherwise the mineral bed would be sent into the potable water system. The expansion tank is a necessary evil in this case.

Call Bradfford White and ask them how long their overlap is on the weld joint is. Rheems 6 year heater is half an inch the 8 year warranty heater is almost a 1 inch overlap on the weld joint. I’d buy that the glass lining is not as thick and allowing the tank to rot out quicker. I am having great difficulty in understanding how minimum sodium ions are causing this issue with Bradford Whites.

Could be the plumbing is company dropping the heater from the cart or while they carry it, especially if the same plumbing company has installed the heater all 3 times. This happens more than you would care to know or understand by plumbers that do not care and slam the heater around or do not tie it in the truck. Or it could be a numbers game and this customer has the worst luck with this company. Sometimes there is no rhyme or reason for stuff to happen where bad things happen to good people and it is what it is. Maybe a change of scenery is all they need and that is you.


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