# Another Almighty Vent Thread



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Anyone else read "The Sacred Element" article in the February issue of PME? Julius Ballanco makes a fair attempt at busting myths regarding the purpose of plumbing vents.

http://www.pmengineer.com/articles/92348-many-misconceptions-exist-about-plumbing-venting


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

2" above roof might work if there is no chance of snow


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

> Trust me, I’ve experienced a few hurricanes. That’s why I moved to the Midwest; tornadoes are more fun.


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

OpenSights said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing:


 One of several gems in that article.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

rwh said:


> 2" above roof might work if there is no chance of snow


Odd he didn't think of that.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

That man has made me scratch my head many of times over he years.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

If you simply state the vent system is designed to neutralize the pressure in the drainage system, you would be 100% accurate. 



What he states is true....a vent neutralizes pressure....

In theory you could vent a 5 bathroom house with a 1/2 inch pipe out the roof... I know that would be extreme but we have thousands of 5 bathroom barns in this city with only a 1 1/2 vent poked out the roof and they all seem to work fine....


its a good test for the show * myth-busters* to try sometime......


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Myth busters just closed down shop.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

plumbus said:


> myth busters just closed down shop.




no way!!


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

The exploding heater episode was one of my favorites.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

I saw them live once. Great entertainers.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

rwh said:


> 2" above roof might work if there is no chance of snow


Tempted to contact him and ask about this.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> If you simply state the vent system is designed to neutralize the pressure in the drainage system, you would be 100% accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They don't get freezing temperatures in Indy? Around here that thing would hoar frost shut. I've seen it happen on a 3" stack. Of course that was an odd situation and isn't the norm but 1½ doesn't stand much of a chance.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Darn near every time I have seen galvanized pipe for vent it has been almost completely plugged. be it rust swell, a tee that sagged and is below the standing water line, a 90 elbow filled, or a dead squirrell, or the occasional bird nest. And you know what? the plumbing has worked fine for ages!


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

bct p&h said:


> They don't get freezing temperatures in Indy? Around here that thing would hoar frost shut. I've seen it happen on a 3" stack. Of course that was an odd situation and isn't the norm but 1½ doesn't stand much of a chance.



You see them all over town....I suppose they could freeze up but eventually they would thaw out .... no one seems to notice or care
....never been called out for a slow drain problem yet....


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Pay no attention to that sewer gas in your office building ma'am. Julius Ballanco says it's perfectly fine for your sanitary system vents to be cut low to the roof & covered by solar panels. The sewer gasses are fine to be pulled I to the building by your roof-top hvac units. What do plumbers know? We'll just install some more "solar-powered" exhaust fans to draw that stench out of yer office! ;-)


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

mccmech said:


> Pay no attention to that sewer gas in your office building ma'am. Julius Ballanco says it's perfectly fine for your sanitary system vents to be cut low to the roof & covered by solar panels. The sewer gasses are fine to be pulled I to the building by your roof-top hvac units. What do plumbers know? We'll just install some more "solar-powered" exhaust fans to draw that stench out of yer office! ;-)



I don't know many sloped roofs with rooftop units. And on a flat roof the solar panel would be far from horizontal and blocking the vent. Not to mention the vent needs very little actual air movement. Also, how much of a difference in air movement are you really going to get from 2" off of the roof to 8"? Is there really that much of a deadzone in airflow right above the roof surface? And what about the attic units with a barometric damper for make up air right next to a studor vent? I think we need some regs as to how close air intakes can be to a sewer vent.....oh wait, do they have those?


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

skoronesa said:


> I don't know many sloped roofs with rooftop units. And on a flat roof the solar panel would be far from horizontal and blocking the vent. Not to mention the vent needs very little actual air movement. Also, how much of a difference in air movement are you really going to get from 2" off of the roof to 8"? Is there really that much of a deadzone in airflow right above the roof surface? And what about the attic units with a barometric damper for make up air right next to a studor vent? I think we need some regs as to how close air intakes can be to a sewer vent.....oh wait, do they have those?


Given that your intro states you do drain snaking, I think you should stick to what you know. Regarding your comment about studor vents, please do some research on how they actually work. Regarding your sarcastic, in my opinion, comment about regulations on vent distances from fresh air intakes, there absolutely are. Again, research on your part will learn ya what they are. Matter of fact, why don't ya research all your comments to find out what actually happens on a flat office roof with parapet walls, and how the air flow works.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> I don't know many sloped roofs with rooftop units. And on a flat roof the solar panel would be far from horizontal and blocking the vent. Not to mention the vent needs very little actual air movement. Also, how much of a difference in air movement are you really going to get from 2" off of the roof to 8"? Is there really that much of a deadzone in airflow right above the roof surface? And what about the attic units with a barometric damper for make up air right next to a studor vent? I think we need some regs as to how close air intakes can be to a sewer vent.....oh wait, do they have those?


yes there are lots of code on where sewer vents can or cannot terminate through a roof...


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

mccmech said:


> Given that your intro states you do drain snaking, I think you should stick to what you know. Regarding your comment about studor vents, please do some research on how they actually work. Regarding your sarcastic, in my opinion, comment about regulations on vent distances from fresh air intakes, there absolutely are. Again, research on your part will learn ya what they are. Matter of fact, why don't ya research all your comments to find out what actually happens on a flat office roof with parapet walls, and how the air flow works.



Yes, there was some sarcasm there, just like that which you have directed torward Mr.Ballanco. 

And yes, I understand there are regs on the distances, that's my point. I can think of only a very limited number of instances where given the proper distances, meaning the plumber who was there first did it correctly, would you have an issue with smells.

And I am sticking to what I know, Drains, which includes vents. I have had many calls where the customer thinks they have an issue due to sewer gases, never has one been from a short stack. It's always just a dried out trap, shifted toilet, or other break. Even with studor vents terminating in the attic people don't get smells. We are currently renovating a house that just sold, the vent stopped half way up in a 2nd story wall, where the odor could have gone up and into a semi finished attic, the old owners were our customers and never had an issue. Very rarely do I see a lack of venting be an issue, but I commonly find filled vents because I check anyway. Usually a sink overflow being clogged is the source of the venting issue, blow it out and you're good to go.

How would you feel if someone told you to stick to numbers instead of plumbing? Sorry for the attitude, I usually refrain.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I've seen a lot of water slosh back and forth in toilets on windy days. Even siphoned a trap or two. 

Sure would love to have that snappy engineer splain to this lowly toilet fixer how that happens when there is such minimal air flow in the vents.


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

plbgbiz said:


> I've seen a lot of water slosh back and forth in toilets on windy days. Even siphoned a trap or two.
> 
> Sure would love to have that snappy engineer splain to this lowly toilet fixer how that happens when there is such minimal air flow in the vents.



Me too. The wind moves my toilet water regularly. Leaving vent terminations under panels might leave them susceptible to leaves, debris, snow, etc


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

rwh said:


> Me too. The wind moves my toilet water regularly. Leaving vent terminations under panels might leave them susceptible to leaves, debris, snow, etc


And to me that says a lot of airflow and little chance of getting something potent in an intake. I'm not saying that cutting them that low is always acceptable. It just seems to me that there are a lot of situations where this would be fine and the resistance to it based off of bias against anyone who isn't a plumber touching plumbing or saying they think something will work, like telling someone to stick to what they do.


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

That's cool. If you live in Dixie and have no trees nearby, I suppose you could cut them flush


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

If you look at specs for where to run a woodstove chimney and the heights above areas on the roof, there are areas of back draft and air turbulence on roofs, that in my opinion would effect plumbing vents too...I think the writer for PM, does so in his manor of controversy to get people to read the magazine..........


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## Lucky Jack (Nov 14, 2015)

I've had to pass master plumber exam in 4 different states......Doesn't he know that the laws of physics change at the border of each state? Wherever you are, just behave!!!!.....luckyjack


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Noticed this vent today.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

OpenSights said:


> Noticed this vent today.


Looks big enough for no hor-frost, But I would bet that a hanger broke and condensate collected and the weight pulled the vent down. Or somebody did
some unsupported stack work and could not figure out why the piece they were replacing was 9" too long!


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Looks big enough for no hor-frost, But I would bet that a hanger broke and condensate collected and the weight pulled the vent down. Or somebody did
> some unsupported stack work and could not figure out why the piece they were replacing was 9" too long!


Nope. We roughed in a half bath up there... kind of a finished attic/bedroom. Stack came up, 45'd followed the roof and 45'd up and out. 

HO is going to have a nice little setup when done.


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

I can't open the article but it sounds interesting. I don't think I ever saw a trailer with any more than 1.5" vent and They don't seem to have sewer gas smell in cold weather. Heck Most homes built Round here in the 1960's and before have 1.5" vents for the kitchens through the roof. Again know trouble. 

I quit chaseing the magical vent issues for plumbers because it soooooo rarely is a vent issue. I have know idea how we came to believe so many slow drains and sewer gas smells were caused by clogged vents?

Funny I say all this. THIS morning I have to camera a vent to see if it's clear. I found yesterday when the city lift station kicks on in completely fills the city sewer causing gurgleing in the homeowners toilets every 25 minutes or so. It seems it shouldn't happen with a good vent. But I can feel a gust of air at the open clean out as soon as I here the lift pump turn on. 

I called the city and they know there sewer is undersized where the lift pumpties in.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

saysflushable said:


> Funny I say all this. THIS morning I have to camera a vent to see if it's clear. I found yesterday when the city lift station kicks on in completely fills the city sewer causing gurgleing in the homeowners toilets every 25 minutes or so. It seems it shouldn't happen with a good vent. But I can feel a gust of air at the open clean out as soon as I here the lift pump turn on.
> 
> I called the city and they know there sewer is undersized where the lift pumpties in.


A couple months ago I had a drain issue in an old farm house. The washer was tied into a floor drain that ran out to a drywell and after 100+ years the system would no longer accept the demand. All interior drainage had been replaced including the set up for hooking up an up pump tieing into the kitchen line.

Told him it was his best option, however his line is undersized and might give him issues. Kitchen line was 1 1/2 X 35' long. It had an AAV under the sink and the stub down for the pump.

Sure enough, he had issues with his sink not only gurgling but spitting too even with the AAV removed. So we came back and ran a new line, no more issues. 

Not a vent issue, undersized issue.


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## Ghostmaker (Jan 12, 2013)

Our local cities some times use a sewer jet on the main sewer by the street. Under the IPC code most vents to the roof are 1.5 inch to 2 inch with an increase before going out the roof to 3 or 4 depending on frost area. They soon discovered that an over powered jetter and the new code makes water fly right out of the toilets with force.

Newer sewers are now air tight due to EPA getting the storm water out.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Ghostmaker said:


> Our local cities some times use a sewer jet on the main sewer by the street. Under the IPC code most vents to the roof are 1.5 inch to 2 inch with an increase before going out the roof to 3 or 4 depending on frost area. They soon discovered that an over powered jetter and the new code makes water fly right out of the toilets with force.
> 
> Newer sewers are now air tight due to EPA getting the storm water out.


Must be a Mongoose jetter.


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