# Pex guys.. Fitting choice?



## PeckPlumbing (Mar 19, 2011)

Tons of pex is used here, almost on every new house and even in some light commercial. Lately, everyone (according to the parts houses) is now using the poly pex fittings instead of the brass.

Does anyone use those? I find no reason to switch away from brass... I mean we are only talking a 25cent difference in price per fitting.

Next we will probably see plastic crimp rings..


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Pex is to expensive I use this stuff.


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## Moscow (Aug 27, 2009)

I agree with you I would like to see brass over poly fittings anyday. I never see copper pipe any more here unless it is spect out by the DP.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Some water is 100% incompatible with brass fittings and plastic is the way to go. I use Upanor and with the exception of threaded and sweat adapters I use plastic fittings. I've never had a plastic fitting fail.







Paul


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## PlumberJake (Nov 15, 2010)

I use the plastic fittings because of dezincification. If I remember correctly, certain ph and chlorine levels in the water supply slowly degrade the brass fittings until they split in half. I have had no issues with the plastic (CR=corrosion resistant) fittings.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Uponor recommends that you use the plastic fittings but in the end it's all pretty much junk so who cares? I'm sure all of this crap will make it well past the two year warranty and then you can pull it all out and do it over again and make some more money. I have long since given a crap how long anything lasts. Obviously the manufacturers don't care and the code review boards don't care and the cheap ship contractors don't care and the end user is too damn cheap to care so why should I? Hack it in, pull it out and do it all over again. :laughing:


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## breid1903 (Feb 8, 2009)

*nh*

tell us how you REALLY feel. breid...............:rockon:


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

I use the polymer fittings and have yet to have one fail and I use it exclusively. Brass PEX fittings are crap here. One thing is I'm careful not to allow polimer fittings to be in a bind.


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## PeckPlumbing (Mar 19, 2011)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Uponor recommends that you use the plastic fittings but in the end it's all pretty much junk so who cares? I'm sure all of this crap will make it well past the two year warranty and then you can pull it all out and do it over again and make some more money. I have long since given a crap how long anything lasts. Obviously the manufacturers don't care and the code review boards don't care and the cheap ship contractors don't care and the end user is too damn cheap to care so why should I? Hack it in, pull it out and do it all over again. :laughing:


.. :laughing: I have heard someone call it 'garbage pipe'. I was going to say something else but I need another cup of coffee.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

I prefer viega pureflow system with their bronze fittings.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I use yellow brass and it holds up great in cenyral florida. I have gone nack to 10+ year olds systems and cut fittings out with only a very mild surface corrosion. Remember polybutylene? I'll pass on the plastic fittings. Its just not worth it.


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## ironandfire (Oct 9, 2008)

...


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

In the end, it will be the brass fittings that use the cinch or pinch rings that will fail first

Compare a Uponor plastic fitting ID with that of a brass fitting, there is about 3/16" difference in the ID. So you buy 1/2" pipe but get the flow of 3/8" because of the fittings with all others.

Uponor does it by expanding the pipe for a true flow-through ID, the others will suffer from erosion due to velocity and leak.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ZL700 said:


> Compare a Uponor plastic fitting ID with that of a brass fitting, there is about 3/16" difference in the ID. So you buy 1/2" pipe but get the flow of 3/8" because of the fittings with all others.
> 
> Uponor does it by expanding the pipe for a true flow-through ID, the others will suffer from erosion due to velocity and leak.


I'd appreciate it if you could apply the math to this statement and show me this huge reduction of flow and increase in velocity that the Non-Uphonor fittings will have...

I'm just saying, "I think this statement was cooked up by some suit in marketing..." :whistling2:


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## pghplumber (Apr 18, 2011)

Hi I am new to this site but I just wanted to chime in on this one. Pretty much all new residential plumbing around here use pex. I prefer Zurn with the copper crimp rings. We have stopped using the brass fittings mainly because the poly fittings don't break down and with zurn it doesn't matter which you use they both reduce the ID.


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

Redwood said:


> I'd appreciate it if you could apply the math to this statement and show me this huge reduction of flow and increase in velocity that the Non-Uphonor fittings will have...
> 
> I'm just saying, "I think this statement was cooked up by some suit in marketing..." :whistling2:


I risk much flaming by saying this, but do you know how a carburetor works? Same principle, a decrease in pipe diameter will cause an increase in velocity at any given pressure or flow rate. 

Now the part about the increase in velocity destroying fittings, idk quite so sure

However, I use wirsbo/uponer exclusively, and "plastic" fittings unless they are MIP or sweat adapters


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sikxsevn said:


> I risk much flaming by saying this, but do you know how a carburetor works? Same principle, a decrease in pipe diameter will cause an increase in velocity at any given pressure or flow rate.
> 
> Now the part about the increase in velocity destroying fittings, idk quite so sure
> 
> However, I use wirsbo/uponer exclusively, and "plastic" fittings unless they are MIP or sweat adapters


Right! I know a little about how a carburetor works...:yes:
Lets just say things I have built have gone very fast....

Now back to the to the claim that the huge reduction in flow & velocity increase would you care to run the numbers and compare them...

Off the top of my head without doing the math I truly doubt the difference is huge....

In fact I doubt most plumbers have a high enough quality pressure gauge in their possession to discern the difference in pressure from friction loss between the 2 different types of fittings...

But suits in marketing have a habit of grabbing onto such small differences and making a big deal out of it...

BTW I'm not flaming anybody.... I know this claim comes from Uponor and is widely quoted all over the net...
I'm just saying does anybody have the actual numbers?

Considering the internal diameter difference on a 1/2" fitting between the 2 types is 0.028" I'm anticipating huge differences! Of course we know the suits in marketing rather than quoting figures from throughout the velocity scale will go right to the maximum velocity where the highest differences can be recorded.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

gear junkie said:


> I prefer viega pureflow system with their bronze fittings.


We're looking to adopt this system.


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## doublee1407 (Apr 13, 2011)

we used the plastic fittings on an assisted living building, and have had nothing but trouble with them. they seem to leak over time at the crimps (and yes we had our crimpers checked out many times) and up in the attic if someone is up there replacing unit filters if the even slightly step any where near them the break. to me its not worth it and will always use brass.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Red, no numbers here but for grins we took a plastic storage bin and installed 3 different outlets in the bottom. One for 1/2" copper, one for 1/2" crimp pex and the other for 1/2" Uponor. running through 4 elbows and 10 feet of pipe, the copper line drains the tub the fastest, next is Uponor and last is the crimp. I'm on vacation so I don't have the times with me but I remember the copper as being 1/3 faster than both pex offerings and the Uponor being slightly better than crimp but there is a huge and noticable difference for the copper. IMHO opinion though none of it matters. The inspectors and the code people don't give a crap so why should we? Hack it in and tear it all out later then hack some other crap in :yes:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Red, no numbers here but for grins we took a plastic storage bin and installed 3 different outlets in the bottom. One for 1/2" copper, one for 1/2" crimp pex and the other for 1/2" Uponor. running through 4 elbows and 10 feet of pipe, the copper line drains the tub the fastest, next is Uponor and last is the crimp. I'm on vacation so I don't have the times with me but I remember the copper as being 1/3 faster than both pex offerings and the Uponor being slightly better than crimp but there is a huge and noticable difference for the copper. IMHO opinion though none of it matters. The inspectors and the code people don't give a crap so why should we? Hack it in and tear it all out later then hack some other crap in :yes:


That is exactly what I was thinking it would be like...

Just enough to say it was there....

I'll bet the flow difference peaks out at about 25% at the top of the velocity scale.... just off the top of my head...

Anywhere lower and you'll have to break out the magnifying glass to see it....:laughing:


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Redwood said:


> That is exactly what I was thinking it would be like...
> 
> Just enough to say it was there....
> 
> ...


My calculator says:

At 5gpm on 1/2" the difference is 8 fps (Uponor) and 12.5 fps (other)

Typical plumbing system maybe no big deal but add a recirc system with heat and hardness, that non-Uponor brass insert will fail first.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ZL700 said:


> My calculator says:
> 
> At 5gpm on 1/2" the difference is 8 fps (Uponor) and 12.5 fps (other)
> 
> Typical plumbing system maybe no big deal but add a recirc system with heat and hardness, that non-Uponor brass insert will fail first.


I did manage to find this moments ago...
http://www.uponorpro.com/~/media/Ex...uaPEXProPEX_Compare_C274_0211.aspx?sc_lang=en

Seems Uponors figures don't quite match yours...
But as I thought any figures would be at the upper end of the velocity scale so they could get the maximum difference for their marketing gurus...

Lo and Behold 25%! :laughing:

I'd really like to see a chart across the whole flow range myself...

Maybe we can get NHMaster to put together a study for us with his students... :thumbup:


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Redwood said:


> I did manage to find this moments ago...
> http://www.uponorpro.com/~/media/Ex...uaPEXProPEX_Compare_C274_0211.aspx?sc_lang=en
> 
> Seems Uponors figures don't quite match yours...
> ...



Looks like they concentrate on flow differences not velocity and any accusations that the fitting would wear out. Smart- they are marketing not fishing for potential litigation.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ZL700 said:


> Looks like they concentrate on flow differences not velocity and any accusations that the fitting would wear out. Smart- they are marketing not fishing for potential litigation.


Well they did run into a little problem out in Vegas with that water that eats brass that is why you are seeing the new plastic fittings...

Dezincification is a big problem there...


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Well they did run into a little problem out in Vegas with that water that eats brass that is why you are seeing the new plastic fittings...
> 
> Dezincification is a big problem there...


That too!


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

No problems with Dezincification here....
The Brass is fine in most cases...

A few houses once in a while with acidic water from a well but that is about all I have to worry about.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I think the biggest flow issue has more to do with the fittings interior profile. Note that the Uponor elbow is pretty much dead ended at the corner while the crimp elbow has a smoother sweep. However if you take a close look at the crimp fitting you will see an interior ledge which will restrict flow somewhat as well as being agains code which clearly states that fittings shall have no ledges or restrictions to flow. Also note that the Uponor pipe does indeed expand enough to avoid that ledge. As far as I am concerned neither fitting follows the intent of the code and the issue has been swept under the carpet thanks to code officials that are for the most part a bunch of industry whores. Let's be honest here. The intent of the code is to establish minimum flow rates for piping systems and unless all the PEX in a house has been oversized by one pipe size, pex just does not meet code requirements. The biggest thing my impromptu test reveals is that copper out flows pex by at least 40%


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Upsizing PEX one size, still comes below the cost of copper and labor right?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Well yes and when you get right down to it, being able to do a job for someone, cheaper and faster than everyone else is really what contracting is all about :whistling2:


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## PeckPlumbing (Mar 19, 2011)

Just got two leaking wirsbo brass fittings last night.. ill post pictures in a few hours!!


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## PeckPlumbing (Mar 19, 2011)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Well yes and when you get right down to it, being able to do a job for someone, cheaper and faster than everyone else is really what contracting is all about :whistling2:


That's the motto around here.. I'm not kidding either. One of the reasons we don't work for contractors.. :no:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

PeckPlumbing said:


> That's the motto around here.. I'm not kidding either. One of the reasons we don't work for contractors.. :no:


Smart man :thumbsup:


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## Prscptn Plmbng (Feb 15, 2011)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I think the biggest flow issue has more to do with the fittings interior profile. Note that the Uponor elbow is pretty much dead ended at the corner while the crimp elbow has a smoother sweep. However if you take a close look at the crimp fitting you will see an interior ledge which will restrict flow somewhat as well as being agains code which clearly states that fittings shall have no ledges or restrictions to flow. Also note that the Uponor pipe does indeed expand enough to avoid that ledge. As far as I am concerned neither fitting follows the intent of the code and the issue has been swept under the carpet thanks to code officials that are for the most part a bunch of industry whores. Let's be honest here. The intent of the code is to establish minimum flow rates for piping systems and unless all the PEX in a house has been oversized by one pipe size, pex just does not meet code requirements. The biggest thing my impromptu test reveals is that copper out flows pex by at least 40%


When I first started using pex, my rental house had a slab leak and was conventionally plumbed fittings under the slab) so I repiped it using sizing for copper as per pex rep... Well a few years had gone by and now I moved back in to upgrade the house... Now using the system I see an obvious flaw in the pipe sizing... I looked into the cause and found the huge flow reduction due to the poly fittings... So now I up size all pex jobs... It's a must if you don't want call backs...

Prescription Plumbing Inc 
P.O.Box 6378 
Oceanside, CA 92502


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

As a side note, I now have noticed alot of the Maniblock installs with 3/8" PEX to individual fixtures coming out for all the same reasons. Wait, pressure drop, recirc difficulties, fittings..............

Included with that imagine his and her sinks, his has hot water but she needs to wait again since there only piped 3' apart but flow starts again at the maniblock.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Yes, those Maniblock installations stink for that very reason. Recirculation is impossible on them as well. They are great for plumbers that are incapable of correctly sizing pipe.

I prefer to use Trunk & Branch installation for that reason. In larger homes I may also add remote manifolds serving fixture groups close together and recirculate from the remote manifold(s).


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I like manabolck systems for camps. They are ideal if you have to drain down the system. Other than that, it's a lot of buck for the bang


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## plumber4200 (Feb 11, 2011)

Interesting thread. I have a few comments for the mill.
1. Someone earlier compared non metallic pex fittings to non-metallic poly fittings. To me that is lazy thinking. Most likey that person has a mentor who just hates pex in general. It is like comparing cast iron to galvanized steel. They are both metal so if one fails the other will? If you do not think that all the lawsuits against poly are in the back of pex producers minds every minute think again. Are we so ass backwards in this industry that we want to stay in the dark ages? Just because poly failed does not mean pex will. It is chemically not the same as poly. I think pex is a good product and in areas where we have acidic water I use the poly fittings and if the water is fine I use brass. No problem.
2. I refused to use pex for a long time, not because it was a bad product but because it reduced the value of my labor. If any untrained Illegal immigrant can come in and learn to run pex in an hour and he will work for $8/hour or a homeowner can do it with no training at all except watching HGTV, that lessens my value in the customers eyes. I used to take so much pride in how pretty and neat my copper work was and how well it served the customer... those days are gone. No one cares anymore. That is depressing to me, since in the mind of the customer I am know just an unskilled trade as far as they are concerned.
3. I really don't get the big deal with flow rates. I put a pressure reducing valve on all my new homes, which gets it down to a max of 75psi. Then the faucet manufacturers bushing down their brass vales so that the openings in them are 1/4-3/8 of an inch in diameter. Then they put water restrictors in the aerators and shower heads and sprayers. It is all so irrelevant. I just saw an episode of This New House and that guy Jamie from This Old House was at the Kohler factory. The guy was showing him how they were trying to get a good feeling shower flow using a shower head that puts out 1.5 gallons per minute, not the industry standard of 2.5gpm. I think at this point, with the reductions in gpm at the fixture, the reduced flow of pex will never be an issue. If you run a 3/4 line to every bathroom and branch directly off it to each fixture with its own dedicated 1/2" line or at most just do 2 fixtures off a 1/2" if it is a seldom used fixture you will rarely have problems unless you do have pressure problems. If you do have pressure problems that is another story. I have even run a 3'4" cold line back from the furthest bathroom to the main shut off and tee'd it in there so it is really a balanced loop and can draw from both sides so the pressure is the same even at the farthest fixture. Worrying about minuscule pipe diameter differences, is to me pointless. 
4. If you are that worried run a 1" cold to the water heater and to the farthest fixture group. Nuff said.
5. Last comment is about something NHMASTER said. It is almost depressing that our attitude has come down to "slap it in and in a few years replace it". He is right. My homeowners and contractors both don't care. The more they save on plumbing the more they have left for furniture, plasma tv's, decorative concrete , builder profits, or some other item that really does nothing to add to the life and quality of their home. I have started going away from new homes and remodels to service because I just get so upset that we have come to this place in our industry where we are just "installers". 

Oh well, nuff said.


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## Prscptn Plmbng (Feb 15, 2011)

Here are some pics of pex system that had two leaks in the last two weeks. This pipe was 2 ft away from the water heater flex, it's got splits and cracks like poly, this is totally making me reconsider installing pex, the system is 7 years old and it's wirsbo pipe

Prescription Plumbing Inc 
P.O.Box 6378 
Oceanside, CA 92502


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Prscptn Plmbng said:


> Here are some pics of pex system that had two leaks in the last two weeks. This pipe was 2 ft away from the water heater flex, it's got splits and cracks like poly, this is totally making me reconsider installing pex, the system is 7 years old and it's wirsbo pipe.


Damn! That must be some of the stuff Uponor bought from CPI DuraPex.... :laughing:


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

just silver solder the cracks. :laughing:


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## PeckPlumbing (Mar 19, 2011)

Sorry for the delay....


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

That fitting doesn't look like the pipe is bottomed out into the fitting, and the stiffeners aren't quite right either

Looks like improper installation to me...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

It sure looks like dezincification of brass to me...


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## Prscptn Plmbng (Feb 15, 2011)

Redwood said:


> Damn! That must be some of the stuff Uponor bought from CPI DuraPex.... :laughing:


Haha prob... I couldn't even expand the ends...I had to use a shark bite to repair. And I hate using shark bites........

Prescription Plumbing Inc 
P.O.Box 6378 
Oceanside, CA 92502


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