# plumbing tricks



## smellslike$tome

I know there is a long list on CT but don't think I remember either of these and since it was just a matter of time before one got added here I guess I'll go ahead and start it.

My buddy mentioned both of these over the last week or so.

1. Ever been head first down in a hole while trying to sweat a repair to a water service only to have your torch keep going out? Next time, if you have a small mini vac, reverse the flow so that it blows, tie a rag off around the end so it doesn't blow dirt in your face, and get the hose low enough so that it provides a source of air near the bottom of the hole.

2. I installed a ho provided roman tub faucet the other day that the ho pruchased via e-bay. Neither of the two stems were marked hot as one of them should have been so I had to guess since I do not know how to tell them apart without the tag (perhaps I should have and now I do but I didn't when I needed to). Of course I guessed wrong.
Anyway, if neither of the stems are marked (and my friend said even if they are marked because he's found them incorrectly marked after the fact before) simply blow through the stem observing the handle direction of turn from open to close which will tell you which side it should go on. 

:blink: Dohhh! So simple, why didn't I ever think of that!


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## GrumpyPlumber

smellslike$tome said:


> I know there is a long list on CT but don't think I remember either of these and since it was just a matter of time before one got added here I guess I'll go ahead and start it.
> 
> My buddy mentioned both of these over the last week or so.
> 
> 1. Ever been head first down in a hole while trying to sweat a repair to a water service only to have your torch keep going out? Next time, if you have a small mini vac, reverse the flow so that it blows, tie a rag off around the end so it doesn't blow dirt in your face, and get the hose low enough so that it provides a source of air near the bottom of the hole.
> 
> 2. I installed a ho provided roman tub faucet the other day that the ho pruchased via e-bay. Neither of the two stems were marked hot as one of them should have been so I had to guess since I do not know how to tell them apart without the tag (perhaps I should have and now I do but I didn't when I needed to). Of course I guessed wrong.
> Anyway, if neither of the stems are marked (and my friend said even if they are marked because he's found them incorrectly marked after the fact before) simply blow through the stem observing the handle direction of turn from open to close which will tell you which side it should go on.
> 
> :blink: Dohhh! So simple, why didn't I ever think of that!


*LOL, I figured out the handle trick in my first year as an apprentice...I still do it on single handle KS faucets before connecting to the stops just to be sure.*


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## user4

Alabama allows soft soldering on a buried water service?


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## Alan

Yep, ALWAYS blow through and make sure you're installing faucet handles in the off position, otherwise you will be ScREwEd!~


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## gear junkie

Next time you're dealing with a 3 handle faucet that has unions, sweat the fpt union onto the mpt copper. I've seen many of these unions split right on the side. Hand tighten the threads and apply the solder.


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## smellslike$tome

Killertoiletspider said:


> Alabama allows soft soldering on a buried water service?


Yes per IPC.


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## smellslike$tome

gear junkie said:


> Next time you're dealing with a 3 handle faucet that has unions, sweat the fpt union onto the mpt copper. I've seen many of these unions split right on the side. Hand tighten the threads and apply the solder.


Yikes! Maybe I'm not following you correctly but why on earth would you ever want to solder a union together. This would defeat the whole purpose of having a union in the first place. I must not be understanding you properly?

BTW, I have come across older style 2 and 3 handle t/s faucets where this had been done and never understood why. Replacement is a snap with functioning unions but definately takes more time and work when you have to cut the unions out.


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## threaderman

I never solder when copper is in the ground,that creates a weaker joint than the pipe itself ,which is not good,where as the brazed area of a pipe is often times stronger than the original pipe material.The only way to go,sorry.


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## Song Dog

I have been in many hard to reach to get a saw into places. Basic string line will cut its way through sch40 with some elbow grease.
I have used a disc grinder to cut CI when I couldn't get my chain behind it.

In Christ,

Song Dog


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## 3KP

*Cutting Cast*

I use a wood saw z all blade to cut cast when I can't get the chains around it. Believe it or not it works. Doesn't really take that much time to cut through either. 

I sometimes use a grinding wheel too.


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## threaderman

I have 2 containers for heat-proof grease but one has wax in it,and when I have a lot of screws I will put the tip of my driver in the wax and it holds quite a few screws before reapplying.


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## gear junkie

smellslike$tome said:


> Yikes! Maybe I'm not following you correctly but why on earth would you ever want to solder a union together. This would defeat the whole purpose of having a union in the first place. I must not be understanding you properly?
> 
> BTW, I have come across older style 2 and 3 handle t/s faucets where this had been done and never understood why. Replacement is a snap with functioning unions but definately takes more time and work when you have to cut the unions out.


You're not catching and english is my second language so it works. When done this way, you can tighten and untighten the union nut(forgot the right term) without a backup wrench because the part that would screw/unscrew is now soldered. This will actually make installtion and replacement easier. All this does is keep the union from splitting and tool marks.


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## 22rifle

gear junkie said:


> You're not catching and english is my second language so it works. When done this way, you can tighten and untighten the union nut(forgot the right term) without a backup wrench because the part that would screw/unscrew is now soldered. This will actually make installtion and replacement easier. All this does is keep the union from splitting and tool marks.


Doesn't meet code though!

Never had one of these split on me either.


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## gear junkie

Where exactly doesn't it meet code? I'm under IPC. I've seen these things last 10 years and then split for no reason.


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## 22rifle

It is not an approved fitting joint. An approved fitting joint is either a socket and soldered, or threaded with a sealant in a manner than it can be unthreaded. Can't be both at the same time.

The code does not say "You cannot do this". It does say, "here are the approved methods" and this doesn't match either of those.


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## gear junkie

22rifle said:


> It is not an approved fitting joint. An approved fitting joint is either a socket and soldered, or threaded with a sealant in a manner than it can be unthreaded. Can't be both at the same time.
> 
> The code does not say "You cannot do this". It does say, "here are the approved methods" and this doesn't match either of those.


I can see your point and while I do respect the code, there are things that aren't revelant. Things like I trust and would fully stand behind a joint made in such a manner. I got a feeling this statement will cause some thread drift. Maybe we should start a new thread on the subject.


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## WestCoastPlumber

I use diamond blade grinder for all my aged cast cutting

I vacuum lock a water heater, pull the bibb and install a 3/4 x3 galv nipple, with a ball valve and another closed nipple with a garden hose adapter on it, to drain my heaters, once I pop a flex it drains in about 15 mins. Of course my adapter is already made up, I have had it for years.

everyone knows the bread in the pipe to solder, I solved this, I purchased a 330B Pro press:thumbup:

when you have to drain down a verticle copper pipe, and you don't want to tast the water, use the sprayer hose and nozzle from your spray bottle, and drain it down that way, mental note: do not drop the nozzle hose down the pipe:no:

ummmm, these are just a few. maybe not even tricks to some.


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## threaderman

WestCoastPlumber said:


> I use diamond blade grinder for all my aged cast cutting
> 
> I vacuum lock a water heater, pull the bibb and install a 3/4 x3 galv nipple, with a ball valve and another closed nipple with a garden hose adapter on it, to drain my heaters, once I pop a flex it drains in about 15 mins. Of course my adapter is already made up, I have had it for years.
> 
> everyone knows the bread in the pipe to solder, I solved this, I purchased a 330B Pro press:thumbup:
> 
> when you have to drain down a verticle copper pipe, and you don't want to tast the water, use the sprayer hose and nozzle from your spray bottle, and drain it down that way, mental note: do not drop the nozzle hose down the pipe:no:
> 
> ummmm, these are just a few. maybe not even tricks to some.


Don't drop the nozzle,made me laugh.I reset a toilet once and it wouldn't flush for squat,I looked around and didn't see my rag I was using to keep stuff from falling down in the bend


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## WestCoastPlumber

threaderman said:


> Don't drop the nozzle,made me laugh.I reset a toilet once and it wouldn't flush for squat,I looked around and didn't see my rag I was using to keep stuff from falling down in the bend


 
lol, you know what I did......I have a habit of turning the stop on and not hooking the supply line up to the fill valve.....it does not happen to often, but I have done it more then once..... I pre wash the floor 

oh no, thread drift.....back on target! sorry OP.


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## gear junkie

WestCoastPlumber said:


> when you have to drain down a verticle copper pipe, and you don't want to tast the water, use the sprayer hose and nozzle from your spray bottle, and drain it down that way, mental note: do not drop the nozzle hose down the pipe:no:


I'll plunge the pipe with a something, usually a jet swet.


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## threaderman

I have the jet-sweat kit and am very fond of it,lovely tool.I carry a 3' piece of 1/4" tubing in my bag ,you know that's a nasty thing,but that is how I evacuate lines quickly which are holding water.


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## 22rifle

When I did service (and I MISS it!) I would occasionally run across a water heater in the basement with no basement drain. 

Disconnect water heater. Cap off inlet (or outlet) and connect an adapter I carried to the other. Hook up little tankless air compressor I carried to the other. Run hose off drain up and out the door. Turn on air compressor. 

Worked for me.

I also usually moved the tank out of the way so I could continue with the new installation while it drained. I do that whereever possible.


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## 22rifle

What about changing bottom elements on water heaters without draining them?

Anyone ever do that?


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## Ron

22rifle said:


> What about changing bottom elements on water heaters without draining them?
> 
> Anyone ever do that?



Yep close the valve, open and close a faucet, place towel down below element line, have element ready to install, unscrew it quickly and install the new one quickly, tank goes into an air lock, very little water gets lost, works for me.


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## threaderman

When I change lower elements I use the opportunity to remove sediment from the tank so I'm not worried about speed.


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## 22rifle

Ron The Plumber said:


> Yep close the valve, open and close a faucet, place towel down below element line, have element ready to install, unscrew it quickly and install the new one quickly, tank goes into an air lock, very little water gets lost, works for me.


UNTIL...

the element is bent and won't come right out. LOL

Then it's "get this thing screwed back in and NOW!"

Not that it ever happened to me. hahaha


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## 22rifle

threaderman said:


> When I change lower elements I use the opportunity to remove sediment from the tank so I'm not worried about speed.


Aha! Glad you mentioned that. 

All of my service work after I picked up that trick was done in an area that has ZERO sediment. I about forgot such a thing existed. 

Serious, we would pull a 35 year old heater (and we had documentation how old most of the heaters in our area were) and it would have zero sediment. Well, maybe enough to fill a tablespoon or in worst cases, a 1/4 cup. 

Speaking of sediment. How do you remove it? I know how my dad did it. He had one of those metal joist brackets with the tip bent at a 90. Then he would put a pan under the element hole and say "Dig it out [22rifle]. LOL


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## 22rifle

One more thing. If you have tons of sediment, sometimes it's a bear to get the element out. The trick I mentioned would not work there.


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## threaderman

Very hard water here,and many in city limits still on well and septic systems ,like myself.
To clean I've had to use extension drill bits to break huge chunks ,then I have a made up adapter for my wet vac 3/4" to insert and vacuum out as I break it up.
Break-up, vacuum, flush,repeat as many times a necessary.:laughing:


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## Herk

The water heater sediment here comes in a number of flavors.

Flavor #1: lightweight, powdery. Easy to remove.
Flavor #2: densely packed. The chunks are bigger than the element hole. This requires that they be broken up before being pulled out the hole and it can be so bad that you can't twist a LWD element without snapping it off.
Flavor #3: variations of gel caused by deterioration of the anode rod, often when the heater isn't being used for several months. Sometimes it's mixed with sediment. Looks like silicone lube.
Flavor #4: a mix of sediment and sand, perhaps from a well that's going dry. This sand will coat an element in a couple of days and cause it to fail. You'll find a tan ceramic coating on the element when you pull it.

I also use the nipple/ball valve/hose adapter when draining heaters. The full flow ball valve allows me to insert a coat hanger or long screwdriver to break up some of the sediment when the flow stops. A shop vac can sometimes be helpful, sometimes not, with or without attachments.

And as to the coat hanger: a heavy guage coat hanger pulled out from the middle and then just the right bend on the end loop becomes the best tool for removing sediment. Quantity usually ranges from 1 to as much as 7 gallons of sediment in a heater. Lower element can sometimes be changed in about an hour and a half, including draining. If problems ensue, such as sediment too dense to allow water through (it's heavier than water), all bets on time are off.


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## Ron

If the sediment is that bad in a tank, you sale a new one.


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## 22rifle

Pretty much my thoughts. Say I have a 9 year old tank and it will take me an hour to clean out the sediment. Man, it's time to start talking about a new water heater before I go there. Anything less is to screw over the customer.


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## Herk

Ron The Plumber said:


> If the sediment is that bad in a tank, you sale a new one.


Wouldn't that be nice? A new water heater every six months to three years? This is an area with poor economy and people aren't about to spring a thousand bucks for a water heater that often. The worst are the point-of-use heaters with only one element - I've had brand new Rheems failing within six months. I have yet to find a decent 1500 watt element that will last a little longer.

With a six-year warranty, it could be difficult explaining to the customer why they need a new one when they know from experience it can be cleaned out.

It's unfortunate that the companies abandoned the hand-hole cleanout when the tougher heat loss restrictions were imposed.


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## Ron

Sorry but here sediment is not an issue, when we find sediment the tank is 10+ years old, so this is why I say we sale rather then clean, the sediment is probably what is keeping the tank from leaking. 

If your finding sediment 6 months out on a new heater then time to think about selling them on a water softner or something to help combat it.


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## WestCoastPlumber

gear junkie said:


> I'll plunge the pipe with a something, usually a jet swet.


 
this is a good idea, works faster

I used to use channel locks, the handle, but it will usually peel the coating off if you get to violent:no:


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## Alan

1k for a new water heater? Are you kiddin' me?


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## gear junkie

I ream my pipe with a uni bit-or was this the thread about water heaters?


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## smellslike$tome

Alan said:


> 1k for a new water heater? Are you kiddin' me?


That's probably just for a standard install. A better tank with better warranty I'm sure would be more.


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## gear junkie

Silly me-this thread was about water heaters. Where's my dose of Ritalin?


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## smellslike$tome

22rifle said:


> What about changing bottom elements on water heaters without draining them?
> 
> Anyone ever do that?


It doesn't take very much 140 degree water to get your attention so you better check the temp setting first and wear some gloves. You may be fast but if the water is hot enough you won't be fast enough.


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## Ron

smellslike$tome said:


> It doesn't take very much 140 degree water to get your attention so you better check the temp setting first and wear some gloves. You may be fast but if the water is hot enough you won't be fast enough.


If your replacing the bottom element it's dead, if it's dead the bottom half if the tank is cold, that's the reason to pull and replace, so 140 degree temp is not going to be an issue. So it's really safe, unless your not fast with the draw.


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## Herk

Alan said:


> 1k for a new water heater? Are you kiddin' me?


Yeah, it's hard to get that around here, but some people manage it.

And the price should vary depending on several factors: 

Is it on a main floor with no steps? 
Is it in a basement?
Is it difficult to access?
Do they want you to haul the old tank away?
Is it already drained?
Is there a drain in the basement?
Is it gas or electric?
Do they have a service contract?

When quoting a price, I take all of these into consideration. But yes, an average flat rate price for a standard water heater replacement is around a thousand dollars in many areas. In some areas it's probably more.


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## TDB

gear junkie said:


> I'll plunge the pipe with a something, usually a jet swet.


That is what I do. It works well. For larger lines I just use a shop vac...


As far as water heaters-

I just use a pony pump to drain them... If they are plugged, I run a hose from a bib or washer box to pressure it backwards then pump it out. Workseverytime for me.


I'd rather sell a new one than clean it out. Most of the time its the sediment keeping it from leaking!!! Last thing I want to do is cause a leak. You know exactly what the customer is going to say - "it was not leaking before you got here"


Our standard price for a 50/50 water heater is $811 installed. We add more for extras like EQ straps, pan, gas flex, code upgrades like combustion air vents, etc... Rarely does a 50 gallon cost more than $1000 time and materials.

I would drain the tank to replace an element. Too risky to do live... However, I do drains, gas valves and t/p valves using the "quick change
method. Rarely do I make a big mess. Usually a glass full of water is all I will spill. I am rarely in such a hurry that I would take a short cut that could go wrong  I'd rather get paid to do it the right way /shrug


Here is a tip I found for finding freeze plugs in your lines - I use a temp gun to take the temp of the pipe. It becomes pretty clear where the likely plug s in the line.Temperature will drop greatly around the area. When its 20 below out, it can be hard to tell where to thaw a pipe... A temperature gun (and saddle valves) will make quick work of locating the problem area.


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## Alan

We can almost always replace them for under 500 unless it's a super expensive heater. Another shop in town charges 800 flat for 50 gallon heaters, which we think is outrageous.


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## 22rifle

Alan said:


> We can almost always replace them for under 500 unless it's a super expensive heater. Another shop in town charges 800 flat for 50 gallon heaters, which we think is outrageous.


Ouch! I ain't gonna say much but you keep your mind open OK? There are some really sharp plumbers on here and if I were you, I would pay attention to them.

Please don't take this as disrespect for your boss, but if he is installing a 50 gallon WH for $500 omething is badly wrong. Somewhere, some corners are being cut. If not in the quality of the work or service, than with himself and his employees.


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## Ron

Electric 675-725, Gas 825, 50 gal


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## A Good Plumber

1250-40 gallon gas-Labor and materials
1350-50 gallon gas-Labor and materials

Only install AO Smith if I supply them.

Price includes Seismic strap, new ball valve, permit, flex connectors, haul away.

Extra for Pan, Stand, major flue modifications, circ pump, location, etc.

Just did a 65 gallon AO Smith for 2300. No extras


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## threaderman

TDB-nice idea on finding frozen sections with a temp. gun.Saddle valves and needle valves are illegal in IPC so we mess with them.


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## threaderman

Correction,we do not install needle and saddle valves.


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## Alan

Ron The Plumber said:


> Electric 675-725


That seems more like it to me.


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## 22rifle

We can go on all day long about what the price for a WH changeout should be.

But the bottom line is this: What does it cost you per hour you devote to that project? That has to be what drives your price. not greed, not a book, not some dude on the internet's opinion. 

Your cost, and your desired profit.

The problem is, I question whether the guy changing out a water heater for $500 has properly accounted for his costs.


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## Herk

22rifle said:


> But the bottom line is this: What does it cost you per hour you devote to that project? That has to be what drives your price. not greed, not a book, not some dude on the internet's opinion.


Let's not forget that this is a big-ticket item. It's easy enough to feel sorry for someone who doesn't have much money, but when you go buy a new truck, does the dealership make money? The factory makes maybe $5,000 in pure profit on that vehicle.

So, if you were T&M, would you mark it up a hundred bucks? A hundred and fifty? Figure about a $300 cost for a decent water heater, another $150 for markup, maybe three hours struggling with it on average and maybe a trip to a reclamation place to get rid of a batch of heaters and add the cost of getting to the job. 

Now, if you're only charging $55 per hour, you aren't making money. You aren't really even in business. You're just the cheap help who handles his own bookwork. If you're depending upon your markup to make up the difference in your income with the low hourly rate, what happens when you have to change out some faucet washers? 

If you have to sell the heater for the same price as Homey and then charge $55 for a couple of hours to install it, how do you pay for your gas?

I've heard there are companies which will fire any "tech" who doesn't bring in a minimum of $1,500 per day. I know that's an extreme example, but how do you arrive at a true reasonable price?

I know for certain that anyone who is charging in the $55 per hour range would simply cry real tears if they ever actually crunched the numbers. Once you plug in liability, tool costs, vehicle costs, licensing costs, advertising costs, material costs, taxes, and owner's salary, it's impossible to make a living or function with any degree of security.

And like I've told a few customers when pulling an old water heater up a creaky set of basement stairs: I'm not making enough to pay the orthopedic surgeon.


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## TDB

Threaderman - We are under UPC in Alaska. I'm not even sure if needle valves are legal. Pretty sure they are cause they are everywhere up here  Its the common method for icemakers and humidifiers. I don't use them for that but many, many, plumbers do. 50% of the houses I go in will have one somewhere in the building. I only like them for freeze ups and they make great purge valves in hydronic heating systems that don't have any or a large monoflow system. 

They are also good for a line you may be afraid to cut into  I had a 1.25" copper line in a 50 foot carpeted hallway the other day. After draining the building, I put on a saddle valve to make sure it was safe to use a sawzall on 

If they are illegal in your area, just use them as a tool to help isolate the frozen spot. Then cut and couple it afterwards. Even coupling the spot later will still be MUCH faster than any other method of location that I know of...They are REALLY helpfull. Not only do they determine where you do not have flow, they aid in telling you when you thawed it out. If you leave it open, it will start pissing all over the place  Makes it fast and easy.

As far as leaving them in, we do... We leave them in for future feeze ups. Here in Alaska, this is a verry common issue 


Herk - I'd be fired on the spot. I average just over $1000 a day in sales. I am good for 6 billable hours in an 8 hour day. I go to, on average, 4 calls a day. Sometimes 7 calls and sometime just one like a boiler install... Some of my days are $2000 but I never average $1500...

I would not even work for a company like that.


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## GrumpyPlumber

*As well you shouldn't.*
*When it gets to the point that you subtract taxes, liability/health insurance, tools, gas and maintanence and your making $20 an hour...it's time to go back to a shop where you get your bennies and wind up making more per hour than that for 40 steady hours.*

*I'm finding alot of newer tradesmen buying into the "going rate" paranoia and undercharging for fear of losing work.*
*You'd be VERY surprised how often folks don't know, or care to invest the time in learning how much your competition charges, they just want hot water, leak free drains & a working toilet.*
*The average plumbing job per household is just over once a year...people aren't going to hop online or run to the library to study up on whats the regular rate for the hundreds of potential plumbing problems that go wrong over time.*
*If you bill someone $50 for a flapper replace or $150, they don't know the difference.*
*If you bill them $500...then they have an incentive to call around.*


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## service guy

Am I the only one who uses a small pony pump to drain water heaters?:confused1:
The first shop I ever worked at had a small electric pump on every truck for draining water heaters, as often homes have basements where you have to run the hose upstairs to drain it, and plus a pump drains a heater WAY faster than gravity. its funny, no shop since then I've worked at did that, I would always ask where's the pump for water heaters??? when I moved to a new shop.
The only way faster has already been described above...using an air compressor to blow-drain the heater is lightning fast, but I don't always carry a compressor, but I always carry a pump as they are small.









As far as prices...50 gallon basic gas water heater with nothing extra is $933, expansion tank or anything else is extra. Though I charge less for electrics since they are much cheaper and easier to install.


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## service guy

22rifle said:


> Ouch! I ain't gonna say much but you keep your mind open OK? There are some really sharp plumbers on here and if I were you, I would pay attention to them.
> 
> *Please don't take this as disrespect for your boss, but if he is installing a 50 gallon WH for $500 omething is badly wrong. Somewhere, some corners are being cut. If not in the quality of the work or service, than with himself and his employees.*


I completely agree, I have worked at quite a few different shops, and now I am a small one-man shop with relatively low overhead and I would lose my ass charging $500 for a 50 gallon water heater, especially if its gas. The heater and materials alone cost around $400!!! No way can I put in a heater for $100, even my small overhead would kill me.


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## Bill

here is one I discovered yesterday. I was installing a new sink and did not have a PVC tail piece. So I went out to the truck and found a small piece of 1-1/2" pvc extension tube that I had cut off. Using the torch to gently heat the lip, then using a pair of linemans pliers I started to bend the end down about 1/8" all the way around. After bending it I ran it under some water to freeze it, installed the flat washer and then installed it to the basket. Worked real good and was so much faster than going to the store for one.


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## 22rifle

service guy said:


> Am I the only one who uses a small pony pump to drain water heaters?:confused1:
> The first shop I ever worked at had a small electric pump on every truck for draining water heaters, as often homes have basements where you have to run the hose upstairs to drain it, and plus a pump drains a heater WAY faster than gravity. its funny, no shop since then I've worked at did that, I would always ask where's the pump for water heaters??? when I moved to a new shop.
> The only way faster has already been described above...using an air compressor to blow-drain the heater is lightning fast, but I don't always carry a compressor, but I always carry a pump as they are small.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as prices...50 gallon basic gas water heater with nothing extra is $933, expansion tank or anything else is extra. Though I charge less for electrics since they are much cheaper and easier to install.


I used to carry one of those pumps too. Good idea.


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## masterk

Cutting cast iron with snap or ratchet cutters.
Measure the cutter wheel to the side of the chain link, add that measurement to your measurement, slide the edge of the cutters to the mark and snap.


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## Ron

I to carry a small electric pump, it just makes sense, if you can't gravity drain it to the outside, you could pump it to a drain somewhere.


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## WestCoastPlumber

22rifle said:


> What about changing bottom elements on water heaters without draining them?
> 
> Anyone ever do that?


 
Vapor lock is the key :thumbsup::thumbsup: you get a good solid few seconds


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## masterk

22,
I have a liberty pump just like that.
On a swap out it is the first tool in, hook it up while making a few more trips to the truck. No time lost just alot saved.


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## Ron

WestCoastPlumber said:


> Vapor lock is the key :thumbsup::thumbsup: you get a good solid few seconds


Vapor lock, thought it was called air lock.


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## masterk

Can't you LEFT coast plumbers agree.:laughing:


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## WestCoastPlumber

Alan said:


> We can almost always replace them for under 500 unless it's a super expensive heater. Another shop in town charges 800 flat for 50 gallon heaters, which we think is outrageous.


 

Ever heard of cost of doing business?? 800 for a 50 and you think that is excessive??

Our 50 gallon here cost 479.00, wholesale, and I have rock bottom prices. Even before the new low nox reg's for los angeles county, the new pizio sealed combustion box was going for 380......

People that charge to little go under when times get tough. You have to know what your cost of doing business is.

A successfull business is not one that make it's bills every month,a successful business is one that offers retirement to it's key players, and more importantly, to it's owner.


----------



## WestCoastPlumber

Ron The Plumber said:


> Vapor lock, thought it was called air lock.


 

Hmmm, vapor lock, yeah, thats a car term, air lock works good too:thumbsup:


----------



## WestCoastPlumber

WestCoastPlumber said:


> Hmmm, vapor lock, yeah, thats a car term, air lock works good too:thumbsup:


 

wait, you know what, vacuum lock..................better???? who knows it's been a long few weeks, either term gets the idea across I hope.


----------



## service guy

WestCoastPlumber said:


> Ever heard of cost of doing business?? 800 for a 50 and you think that is excessive??
> 
> Our 50 gallon here cost 479.00, wholesale, and I have rock bottom prices. Even before the new low nox reg's for los angeles county, the new pizio sealed combustion box was going for 380......
> 
> People that charge to little go under when times get tough. You have to know what your cost of doing business is.
> 
> A successfull business is not one that make it's bills every month,a successful business is one that offers retirement to it's key players, and more importantly, to it's owner.


Preach it Brother!:rockon:


----------



## TDB

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *The average plumbing job per household is just over once a year...people aren't going to hop online or run to the library to study up on whats the regular rate for the hundreds of potential plumbing problems that go wrong over time.*
> *If you bill someone $50 for a flapper replace or $150, they don't know the difference.*
> *If you bill them $500...then they have an incentive to call around.*


I agree... our customers are happy to pay our rate. Once they hear we can come out the deal is done. I'd charge $134.95 to replace a flapper. Never had a complaint...

Here is what I have found -

If my bill is:

under $200 they are surprised its so cheap no matter how simple the fix was.

under $300 the customer is happy.

$400 to $500 they are no longer happy but they were prepared for more so they pay and will call us back.

$500 to $600 - They just new the problem was going to cost them and you did them no favors... They may shop around next time...

$600 to $800 - pissed off but pay. This is when they start thinking about putting hidden cameras up next time you come 

anything more, they are now sure you somehow screwed them over and may call the boss to see what can be done about it  Rarely are they brave enough to say anything to you but you can tell... They still pay though...

Of course, this is all realitive to minor plumbing issues. If there is a real issue like water coming out of the ceiling or some sort of waste issue, they WILL PAY WHATEVER you charge and smile while they do it. People will not live without plumbing and if something is "down", they want it fixed right now no matter what the charge is.

If its huge, like a froze up house, they expect to pay 10k or more. If you get it thawed with no splits for $1000, you are a hero. We don't even offer a guarantee on thawing (or drains for that matter) but EVERY single customer say to try it anyways and they will pay even if you can't do it. They are happy to give you a grand to try no matter how much you tell them they may need to call in a specialist.

After hour calls? Charge whatever you like cause they are happy to pay. Most plumbers won't even come out...



So, charging cheap is insane. We have 15 plumbers and a few helpers. We are usually swamped with work at our rates. We are not the cheapest either. We try to be in the middle. I just don't get why companies try to price it cheap when there is no need to. Plumbing is like gas or rare medications; its something people just won't live without and will pay whatever it takes to get it back to normal. Most people never shop around for a service plumber. All they want is a qualified technician to show up on time as soon as possible...If you solve those two problems, your fair/reasonable rates will never be questioned...


BTW - my ramblings were for service plumbing. New construction is different and much more competitive for price/bids...


----------



## GrumpyPlumber

*Oh yeah, new construction & remodels go down substantially...you estimate hours @ about 25 to 30% less per hour, then work like a raped ape to make it up, new construction is the cheapest..it's controlled by developers & real estate co's that usually don't know when enough's enough on the lowballing game...the new homeowner pays that price for years down the road.*
*Most of that type work is the same thing over n over so you can get your speed up pretty fast.*

*I've done both, also done commercial...my least favorite is new residential.*


----------



## smellslike$tome

TDB said:


> I agree... our customers are happy to pay our rate. Once they hear we can come out the deal is done. I'd charge $134.95 to replace a flapper. Never had a complaint...
> 
> Here is what I have found -
> 
> If my bill is:
> 
> under $200 they are surprised its so cheap no matter how simple the fix was.
> 
> under $300 the customer is happy.
> 
> $400 to $500 they are no longer happy but they were prepared for more so they pay and will call us back.
> 
> $500 to $600 - They just new the problem was going to cost them and you did them no favors... They may shop around next time...
> 
> $600 to $800 - pissed off but pay. This is when they start thinking about putting hidden cameras up next time you come
> 
> anything more, they are now sure you somehow screwed them over and may call the boss to see what can be done about it  Rarely are they brave enough to say anything to you but you can tell... They still pay though...
> 
> Of course, this is all realitive to minor plumbing issues. If there is a real issue like water coming out of the ceiling or some sort of waste issue, they WILL PAY WHATEVER you charge and smile while they do it. People will not live without plumbing and if something is "down", they want it fixed right now no matter what the charge is.
> 
> If its huge, like a froze up house, they expect to pay 10k or more. If you get it thawed with no splits for $1000, you are a hero. We don't even offer a guarantee on thawing (or drains for that matter) but EVERY single customer say to try it anyways and they will pay even if you can't do it. They are happy to give you a grand to try no matter how much you tell them they may need to call in a specialist.
> 
> After hour calls? Charge whatever you like cause they are happy to pay. Most plumbers won't even come out...
> 
> 
> 
> So, charging cheap is insane. We have 15 plumbers and a few helpers. We are usually swamped with work at our rates. We are not the cheapest either. We try to be in the middle. I just don't get why companies try to price it cheap when there is no need to. Plumbing is like gas or rare medications; its something people just won't live without and will pay whatever it takes to get it back to normal. Most people never shop around for a service plumber. All they want is a qualified technician to show up on time as soon as possible...If you solve those two problems, your fair/reasonable rates will never be questioned...
> 
> 
> BTW - my ramblings were for service plumbing. New construction is different and much more competitive for price/bids...



I agree with almost everything you've said except it seems you may not have spent much time answering the phones. We get loads of price shoppers wanting to know what it will cost over the phone. We have a $59 service charge that gets our truck to your house. This generally eliminates the price shoppers since they won't pay just to have us come out and I won't come out just to have you tell me that I'm not the lowest of the 4 other plumbers you've had out.


----------



## Alan

WestCoastPlumber said:


> Ever heard of cost of doing business?? 800 for a 50 and you think that is excessive??
> 
> Our 50 gallon here cost 479.00, wholesale, and I have rock bottom prices. Even before the new low nox reg's for los angeles county, the new pizio sealed combustion box was going for 380......
> 
> People that charge to little go under when times get tough. You have to know what your cost of doing business is.
> 
> A successfull business is not one that make it's bills every month,a successful business is one that offers retirement to it's key players, and more importantly, to it's owner.


ok, i have a feeling now that we're not even apples to apples... i'm talking 50G electric. Sounds like you're talking gas. We don't get gas here, rarely even a propane heater. :thumbup:


----------



## ASUPERTECH

wHAT QUICK CONNECTS DO YOU USE OR RECOMEND? i'M A LITTLE OLD SCHOOL AND WILL EVEN CUT OUT EXTRA CPVC TO SHOW OFF MY COPPER, BUT TIMES ARE GETTING TUFF AND IF i COULD CUT 15-MIN. OR SO OFF A HEATER INSTALL IT MIGHT BE WORTH LOOKING INTO.


----------



## Ron

wschott said:


> wHAT QUICK CONNECTS DO YOU USE OR RECOMEND? i'M A LITTLE OLD SCHOOL AND WILL EVEN CUT OUT EXTRA CPVC TO SHOW OFF MY COPPER, BUT TIMES ARE GETTING TUFF AND IF i COULD CUT 15-MIN. OR SO OFF A HEATER INSTALL IT MIGHT BE WORTH LOOKING INTO.


Flex connects, fast and convenient.


----------



## JCsPlumbing

Ron The Plumber said:


> Flex connects, fast and convenient.


I don't like flex connects. I understand them for seismic situations but that's about it. 

I have found them more often to leak prematurely. Been called out more than once for leaks on them that the original licensed company installed. 

Plus, the easier you make it to remove, the % someone will call a pro will go down. 

J.C.


----------



## I'mYourTourGuide

22rifle said:


> The problem is, I question whether the guy changing out a water heater for $500 has properly accounted for his costs.


 
I can do a 40gal electric replacement for $500 and still clear about $180 in an hour.


----------



## service guy

I'mYourTourGuide said:


> I can do a 40gal electric replacement for $500 and still clear about $180 in an hour.


So does that mean you think those of us charging more are 'shafting' people?:001_tongue:


----------



## service guy

JCsPlumbing said:


> I don't like flex connects. I understand them for seismic situations but that's about it.
> 
> I have found them more often to leak prematurely. Been called out more than once for leaks on them that the original licensed company installed.
> 
> Plus, the easier you make it to remove, the % someone will call a pro will go down.
> 
> J.C.


I agree.


----------



## I'mYourTourGuide

Anyone ever made an inside pipe cutter? :O


----------



## GrumpyPlumber

I'mYourTourGuide said:


> Anyone ever made an inside pipe cutter? :O


*Just yesterday I grabbed a dremmel flat saw bit with a 1/4" arbor and used it with my cordless to cut out a closet drain stub.*


----------



## I'mYourTourGuide

Take a piece of 1/4" all-thread and put 2, 7/16" taps on it with about an 1.25" flat washer in between the two taps and tighten them up really tight. Then take a pair of linemans or tin snips and score the edges of the washer all the way around it. 

It makes a perfect inside pipe cutter for those overshot 2" rough-ins on a urinal stub out. Just stick the saw back in it and there you go. I have seen some urinals that stick out a 1/2" or more.


----------



## Ron

I'mYourTourGuide said:


> Take a piece of 1/4" all-thread and put 2, 7/16" taps on it with about an 1.25" flat washer in between the two taps and tighten them up really tight. Then take a pair of linemans or tin snips and score the edges of the washer all the way around it.
> 
> It makes a perfect inside pipe cutter for those overshot 2" rough-ins on a urinal stub out. Just stick the saw back in it and there you go. I have seen some urinals that stick out a 1/2" or more.



Show us a picture of it.


----------



## Bill

I'mYourTourGuide said:


> Take a piece of 1/4" all-thread and put 2, 7/16" taps on it with about an 1.25" flat washer in between the two taps and tighten them up really tight. Then take a pair of linemans or tin snips and score the edges of the washer all the way around it.
> 
> It makes a perfect inside pipe cutter for those overshot 2" rough-ins on a urinal stub out. Just stick the saw back in it and there you go. I have seen some urinals that stick out a 1/2" or more.


Im not sure I am following you. I agree with Ron, maybe a pix?


----------



## Plumberman

I ran into a situation the other day, our cut off saw was flooded and we had to cut 4" ductile. Buddy of mine grabbed the rachet cutters and handed them to me. Said it would cut it, I was surprised when it did. Only good for 4" and down though


----------



## I'mYourTourGuide

I will show you, I have one lying in the garage somewhere.


----------



## Bill

I'mYourTourGuide said:


> I will show you, I have one lying in the garage somewhere.


cool, cant wait!


----------



## Mike Jessome

3Kings Plumbing said:


> I use a wood saw z all blade to cut cast when I can't get the chains around it. Believe it or not it works. Doesn't really take that much time to cut through either.
> 
> I sometimes use a grinding wheel too.


Lenox makes cast cutting blades and abrasive blades they really work well


----------



## ILPlumber

Where accessible we use a porta-band saw. Walks through like butta:thumbsup:


----------



## Marlin

ILPlumber said:


> Where accessible we use a porta-band saw. Walks through like butta:thumbsup:


Also good for cutting 2.5" or larger gas pipe. You just need a steady hand and a large file.

I guess that's not really residential but how about this. Someone already commented on hard piping the water heater to keep homeowners from messing with it. Unless of course you have to use them in your area. This rule is general. I always solder angle stops if I can. More homeowners and handymen are intimidated by changing soldered on valves then compression or IPS valves. Toilet supplies is another one. I always use hard supplies if I can. They look infinatly better then flex supplies, are cheaper, and homeowners are less likely to remove it them self then the flex supply they saw on HGTV.


----------



## jeffc

had to install a ball valve on a 3/4" water line that wouldn't stop dripping. took flexible riser and taped it to the inside of vac hose. prepared line and valve to solder, opened valve, put riser thru valve and sucked out water while soldering valve on. finished soldering , pulled riser and shut valve. no leaks


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

*Here's a real good trick that worked well yesterday*

on a kitchen sink faucet replacement, and others have done this as well.


On a old faucet where the plastic nuts are froze on, won't come off, tabs busted and nothing will grip to pull them off...



Take a piece of 1/2" copper, beat the end down flat, about an 1" long. 

Take the torch, heat it red or white, carefully go to the nut on the outside edge and push against the bottom of the sink, pull it towards the brass shank of the faucet.

This copper will cool down quickly, so it might take two tries to get the copper to melt the plastic all the way to the brass shank.


Once you know you've slotted the nut, back away from it...let it completely cool down, cold. Don't try to mess with it while still very warm.


Either take that same piece of copper or a large screwdriver and twist it in that newly made slot, those plastic nuts will shatter instantly. 

Off comes the faucet. 

I ran out of options yesterday between a basin wrench and patience, had enough and I'm not going to dremel that damn thing knowing the chance of getting something in my eyes, along with accidentally damaging the sink. 


Don't let your skin hit that copper at any point, I wouldn't heat up a screwdriver either. My piece was about 14" long and worked great. :thumbup:


----------



## Plumber Jim

Roast Duck said:


> on a kitchen sink faucet replacement, and others have done this as well.
> 
> 
> On a old faucet where the plastic nuts are froze on, won't come off, tabs busted and nothing will grip to pull them off...
> 
> 
> 
> Take a piece of 1/2" copper, beat the end down flat, about an 1" long.
> 
> Take the torch, heat it red or white, carefully go to the nut on the outside edge and push against the bottom of the sink, pull it towards the brass shank of the faucet.
> 
> This copper will cool down quickly, so it might take two tries to get the copper to melt the plastic all the way to the brass shank.
> 
> 
> Once you know you've slotted the nut, back away from it...let it completely cool down, cold. Don't try to mess with it while still very warm.
> 
> 
> Either take that same piece of copper or a large screwdriver and twist it in that newly made slot, those plastic nuts will shatter instantly.
> 
> Off comes the faucet.
> 
> I ran out of options yesterday between a basin wrench and patience, had enough and I'm not going to dremel that damn thing knowing the chance of getting something in my eyes, along with accidentally damaging the sink.
> 
> 
> Don't let your skin hit that copper at any point, I wouldn't heat up a screwdriver either. My piece was about 14" long and worked great. :thumbup:


I'll keep that idea in mind. Have you tried the ridgid tool to take off the plastic nuts? the orange tube looking thing? works great. of coarse if the tabs are not broken on the nut.


----------



## leak1

i carry a 12in. screwdriver in my tool bag just for plastic nuts- works great!


----------



## Herk

This works on plastic nuts, too:










It's from Mill-Rose and available at fine plumbing shops everywhere. The cup catches the filings so you don't get them in your eyes. Hooks to the cordless drill. I've used it on different types of nuts and it works well.


----------



## Plasticman

Ok. I made an inside cutter. Lets see if you can decipher my version which I think is what tour guide is talking about.
peice of 1/4 or 3/8 all thread rod about 6 to 8 inches long.
screw a nut on one end about a half inch down or so. On top of that put a lock washer, then a large thin fender washer, another lock washer, then another nut. Tighten these together. Take the other end, the one to put in the drill, and grind it flat on 3 sides to match the inside of your drill chuck.
Works great. Cuts pvc pipe like hot butter.


----------



## Redwood

Plumber Jim said:


> I'll keep that idea in mind. Have you tried the ridgid tool to take off the plastic nuts? the orange tube looking thing? works great. of coarse if the tabs are not broken on the nut.


I made my own tool out of a piece of 1 1/2" schedule 40 pvc years ago.
I just saw cut 4 equal space slots in the end of the pipe so the wings of the plastic nuts fit in them...

Works great for removal and installation.
Never felt compelled to buy anything...


----------



## leak1

red- you will go down in history as one of the true plumbing pioneers!!!!!


----------



## Bollinger plumber

22rifle said:


> I used to carry one of those pumps too. Good idea.


 where can I get one of those pumps???


----------



## Redwood

al said:


> where can I get one of those pumps???


I prefer the Liberty model 331 1/2 HP transfer pump.










Unlike those lil rubber blade impeller pumps this has balls!
With 0' suction lift and 10' discharge head this will do about 20 GPM! :thumbup:
http://www.libertypump.com/data/tbProducts/14_331_bw.pdf

The little rubber impeller units will do about 5 GPM @ 10' discharge head.

I don't carry water heaters on my truck so if possible I set up a gravity drain before going to get the water heater. It will be empty when I get back...


----------



## sweetness09

Not sure if this basic one has been mentioned, but on days where its colder out I let a wax ring run under hot water for a couple of minutes before I set a toilet... saves from any 'rocking' to get the wax compressed.


----------



## sweetness09

Redwood said:


> I prefer the Liberty model 331 1/2 HP transfer pump.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unlike those lil rubber blade impeller pumps this has balls!
> With 0' suction lift and 10' discharge head this will do about 20 GPM! :thumbup:
> http://www.libertypump.com/data/tbProducts/14_331_bw.pdf
> 
> The little rubber impeller units will do about 5 GPM @ 10' discharge head.
> 
> I don't carry water heaters on my truck so if possible I set up a gravity drain before going to get the water heater. It will be empty when I get back...


I have one on my van.. works half of the time because of the fact most WH drains plug up with sediment so easily.


----------



## Herk

Sweetness09 said:


> on days where its colder out I let a wax ring run under hot water for a couple of minutes before I set a toilet... saves from any 'rocking' to get the wax compressed.


I do that, too. You can put it in the microwave but ya gotta be really careful, and it should be a dump. Folks in nice places don't like the microwave trick at all. Low power, one minute at a time until it's just a little soft . . .


----------



## SewerRatz

sweetness09 said:


> Not sure if this basic one has been mentioned, but on days where its colder out I let a wax ring run under hot water for a couple of minutes before I set a toilet... saves from any 'rocking' to get the wax compressed.


 I prefer Putty over the wax. But I do the same thing run the putty container under hot water to get it good and soft.


----------



## Ashleymc

*gringing wheel for CI cuts?*

U mean like a roto zip the drywallers use only with a disc wheel? 
Never thought of that..
Problems here in Ct. is no CI been installed in the last 40 years cept in high end houses for verticals to mains
The real old stuff crushes with the chain snapper..ya end up in china to get a good snap:whistling2:


----------



## Marlin

Ashleymc said:


> U mean like a roto zip the drywallers use only with a disc wheel?
> Never thought of that..
> Problems here in Ct. is no CI been installed in the last 40 years cept in high end houses for verticals to mains
> The real old stuff crushes with the chain snapper..ya end up in china to get a good snap:whistling2:


In cases where the ratchet cutter won't work we use a sawzall with a regular metal blade with good results. Generally if it's soft enough to crush it's soft enough for a saw blade. When we just get a bad cut and need to shave a little piece of metal off the pipe we use a cut off wheel on a 4.5" angle grinder.


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL

Ashleymc said:


> U mean like a roto zip the drywallers use only with a disc wheel?
> Never thought of that..
> Problems here in Ct. is no CI been installed in the last 40 years cept in high end houses for verticals to mains
> The real old stuff crushes with the chain snapper..ya end up in china to get a good snap:whistling2:


Here is a photo of a old cast iron pipe (2" XH) cut made with a Lennox Diamond Blade. I think these blades are about $12.00 Still have it used it about 6 times on cast iron.


----------



## Redwood

Ashleymc said:


> U mean like a roto zip the drywallers use only with a disc wheel?


No actually a diamond wheel in a angle grinder... Like the ones below...
Cuts it like butter...:thumbup:










Dunbar converted me a few years back... Thanks Steve!:thumbup:


----------



## breid1903

*red*

dw4713 is a masonry blade. although i can't see how diamonds would know the difference. i've had less than stellar results when mixing grit metal and masonry blades. breid..................:rockon:


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Here is a photo of a old cast iron pipe (2" XH) cut made with a Lennox Diamond Blade. I think these blades are about $12.00 Still have it used it about 6 times on cast iron.


I would like to upgrade the above post. I am speaking of a diamond tipped sawsall blade, not a rotary blade.


----------



## Protech

I prefer the diamond wheel to cut cast. My first choice is the 14" diamond wheel. If that won't fit then the 4" wheel. If that won't fit, I use the diamond sawzall blades (the slowest by far).


----------



## bartnc37

Protech said:


> I prefer the diamond wheel to cut cast. My first choice is the 14" diamond wheel. If that won't fit then the 4" wheel. If that won't fit, I use the diamond sawzall blades (the slowest by far).


Any specific diamond wheel you prefer? brand, style? We use the diamond sawzall blades a fair amount but IMHO hey are slow as hell. Hate to roast a diamond blade because i grabbed the wrong one, what kind of life do you get out of em?


----------



## smellslike$tome

Protech said:


> I prefer the diamond wheel to cut cast. My first choice is the 14" diamond wheel. If that won't fit then the 4" wheel. If that won't fit, I use the diamond sawzall blades (the slowest by far).


What do you do about the exhaust from the saw, unless you are outside, or do you have an electric saw?


----------



## breid1903

i use the lenox diamond recip blades too. i'm 65 and getting lazy. breid...............:rockon:


----------



## bigdaddyrob

I got away from the ratchet cutters unless I feel like I can def get a nice clean "snap". I switched over also to the Lennox Diam. Sawzall Blades and never had a problem. I have heard of guys using grinder's but never seen it done, so I wasn't to prone to jumpin & being wrong. But I have a 4.5 grinder around, maybe time to pick up a wheel and give it a try.You guys haven't sterred me wrong yet. :thumbup:

Due you chaulk the pipe around and try and follow it or just eye it up ? Altho yeah I am sure a 14' blde would be perfect for going straight thru.


----------



## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

bigdaddyrob said:


> I got away from the ratchet cutters unless I feel like I can def get a nice clean "snap". I switched over also to the Lennox Diam. Sawzall Blades and never had a problem. I have heard of guys using grinder's but never seen it done, so I wasn't to prone to jumpin & being wrong. But I have a 4.5 grinder around, maybe time to pick up a wheel and give it a try.You guys haven't sterred me wrong yet. :thumbup:
> 
> Due you chaulk the pipe around and try and follow it or just eye it up ? Altho yeah I am sure a 14' blde would be perfect for going straight thru.



I eye ball it.:blink:


----------



## M5Plumb

On the copper solder thing in vert piping, I'll take a piece of plastic Tygon (sp) tube, 1/4 or 3/8" and stick it into the pipe about 6", blow through the tube, the air bubble in the pipe forces the water out far enough below the solder joint area and viola! Git er dun!


----------



## Protech

I have both gas and electric saws


smellslike$tome said:


> What do you do about the exhaust from the saw, unless you are outside, or do you have an electric saw?


----------



## Protech

Dang bill, that's one rusted out box truck ya got there.



PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Here is a photo of a old cast iron pipe (2" XH) cut made with a Lennox Diamond Blade. I think these blades are about $12.00 Still have it used it about 6 times on cast iron.


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL

Protech said:


> Dang bill, that's one rusted out box truck ya got there.


That's the best truck I ever bought 1993 GMC (Isuzu) Now has 173,000
on it drum wheels all 4, 5 speed manual trans. Nothing ever done to the diesel engine. Just filters and oil. First set brakes put on at 97000.
So far the tires have been changed 5 times last set about 5000 ago. 
But that is not rust. Rustoleum rusty colored primer only LOL.

On this post gas saw ??? Have a tool dealer up here, refused to sell me a gas power walk behind. Did not like that I was going to use it inside. 
(Carbon Monoxide builds up in your body) Going outside for a breath of fresh air dosen't make it. He said I don't want to see you kill yourself. He sold me a RGC hydraulic power unit, a walk behing hydraulic 14" diamond. Can be taken off and used as a hand unit. I also purchased a hydraulic jack hammer weighs about 35 pounds and hits like a 60. 
No dust gets blown around. You do get some dust off the chisel. 
Saw is a wet saw.As to cutting cast iron with the diamond blade. Never, always used a ductile iron blade on the saw. When you have the room it will cut a 4" stack of cast iron in about 2 minutes. Have to watch sparks though ...


----------



## rocksteady

bigdaddyrob said:


> I got away from the ratchet cutters unless I feel like I can def get a nice clean "snap". I switched over also to the Lennox Diam. Sawzall Blades and never had a problem. I have heard of guys using grinder's but never seen it done, so I wasn't to prone to jumpin & being wrong. But I have a 4.5 grinder around, maybe time to pick up a wheel and give it a try.You guys haven't sterred me wrong yet. :thumbup:
> 
> Due you chaulk the pipe around and try and follow it or just eye it up ? Altho yeah I am sure a 14' blde would be perfect for going straight thru.


 
I almost always use a 4.5" grinder and diamond wheel to cut cast. If'n I'm feeling real confident I'll use the snappers but the grinder has never done me wrong. As far as cutting square, I just eyeball it. If it comes out a little funky, I can trim it up with the grinder. Easy peasey! :thumbsup:

I know a few guys that have 4.5" grinders with 7" diamond wheels on them but that just screams "I'm goin' to the hospital!" on it. I'm not in that big of a hurry.






paul


----------



## Cal

rocksteady said:


> I almost always use a 4.5" grinder and diamond wheel to cut cast. If'n I'm feeling real confident I'll use the snappers but the grinder has never done me wrong. As far as cutting square, I just eyeball it. If it comes out a little funky, I can trim it up with the grinder. Easy peasey! :thumbsup:
> 
> I know a few guys that have 4.5" grinders with 7" diamond wheels on them but that just screams "I'm goin' to the hospital!" on it. I'm not in that big of a hurry.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> paul


 Rock is RIGHT !! 4.5 w / diamond blade does it RIGHT !!! Sealed safety GLASSES PLEASE !!!!!!!! 

Cal


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## retired rooter

*bet this young fellow wished he knew a trick*

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-449178/Blundering-plumber-burns-5m-mansion.html


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