# Slow leaking Mansfield Toilet



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

HELP!

Have a customer who has an old 3 GPF toilet that we serviced several months ago - it needed a fill valve. We strongly suggested he replace the toilet, but he didn't want to.

Called last week and it was leaking. Again, suggested he replace the toilet. Replaced the flush valve, tank to bowl gasket etc.

Called back to say it was leaking. :furious: Went back and no leak. Put dye tablet in and waited 15 minutes. No leak.

BUT - he wouldn't let us flush it.

Seven hours go by and he has some colored water in the bowl.

Now what? Is the chemical make-up of the dye such that is lighter than water, therefore, given enough time, will pass through the flapper?

Is there such a thing as an acceptable amount of leakage?

Any suggestions or info. would be appreciated.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> HELP!
> 
> Have a customer who has an old 3 GPF toilet that we serviced several months ago - it needed a fill valve. We strongly suggested he replace the toilet, but he didn't want to.
> 
> ...


It shouldn't leak any color into the bowl. When you went back and replaced the flushvalve what kind of flapper did you use? Cheap one that usually comes on them or a premium flapper? Eventually a leak that small that takes 7 hrs to show up would seal itself. Sounds like the guy is being anal. How much water is he losing in 7 hrs?? half a teaspoon? Is the toilet ghost flushing?


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Are you sure the fill valve is not siphoning water out of the tank though the flushvalve overfill tube.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Are you sure the fill valve is not siphoning water out of the tank though the flushvalve overfill tube.


 It wouldn't take 7 hrs to do that...more like 15 or 20 minutes. But sure make sure the refill hose is above the water line on a fluidmaster


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

No ghost flushing, premium flapper, and no siphoning taking place. Rob did this call - no plumber error.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> No ghost flushing, premium flapper, and no siphoning taking place. Rob did this call - no plumber error.


 If its not plumber error then its a parts failure or a customer thats pissed at you


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Then he is bs'ing you, did he feel you overcharged him, this could be the mo.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

If it was me, I'd offer to put in a new toilet and I'd give him full credit for the rebuild since it didn't work. If he doesn't accept that offer, he is an idiot. Some old toilets just aren't worth fixing.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> No ghost flushing, premium flapper, and no siphoning taking place. Rob did this call - no plumber error.


 Could have a knick in the plastic flushvalve? One you cant see or feel? Your gonna hafta either change the flapper or change the flapper and flushvalve again to know. I'd do that and then forget the guy if he still had a problem becuase he's f'in with you if he says theres still a problem. make sure you use top quality parts.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

service guy said:


> If it was me, I'd offer to put in a new toilet and I'd give him full credit for the rebuild since it didn't work. If he doesn't accept that offer, he is an idiot. Some old toilets just aren't worth fixing.


 You dont hafta replace a toilet becuse it leaks from the tank to the bowl through the flushvalve....thats sounds like your trying to B.S a person......Thats what i would tell him if he called me and said a plumber told him that.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> You dont hafta replace a toilet becuse it leaks from the tank to the bowl through the flushvalve....thats sounds like your trying to B.S a person......Thats what i would tell him if he called me and said a plumber told him that.


How much is a new toilet? Its no big deal. This is a special case though, its not just an old leaky flushvalve. * He has a 3 gallon flusher that wastes water. A professional plumber has tried to repair it twice, and it still doesn't work!* Its not worth wasting more time on it imo, its just a toilet, they are not that expensive to replace. You can waste all the time you want trying to prove that he doesn't need a new toilet, I'd replace it, give him a 5 year guarantee and move on. He'd also save a ton of water every year with the new 1.6 gpf toilet.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

service guy said:


> How much is a new toilet? Its no big deal. This is a special case though, its not just an old leaky flushvalve. *He has a 3 gallon flusher that wastes water. A professional plumber has tried to repair it twice, and it still doesn't work!* Its not worth wasting more time on it imo, its just a toilet, they are not that expensive to replace. You can waste all the time you want trying to prove that he doesn't need a new toilet, I'd replace it, give him a 5 year guarantee and move on. He'd also save a ton of water every year with the new 1.6 gpf toilet.


The toilet works fine...the flushvalve/flapper they installed doesn't. That problem does not require a new toilet. The point of leak has nothing to do with the china of the toilet. Its the customer most likely. So you would go replace his toilet and then he will have a problem with that too.
Theres nothing to prove its black and white...no new toilet needed. Give me one reason why a new toilet is needed. Because a guy's worked on it twice is not an answer.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

service guy was only making a suggestion on how to solve a problem client.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> The point of leak has nothing to do with the china of the toilet.


Maybe, maybe not. But I don't waste three service calls on one old toilet repair. That is inefficient business.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> service guy was only making a suggestion on how to solve a problem client.


 I thought he said since a plumbers worked on it twice its just not worth repairing. That attitude makes me alot of money. i can repair anything repairable and unless the china is broke or cracked...I can repair it.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

service guy said:


> Maybe, maybe not. But I don't waste three service calls on one old toilet repair. That is inefficient business.


Me either I repair it the first time. And never would I suggest a replacement if the only problem is a flushvalve/flapper when all of that can be replaced. That sounds like your playin on the guy trying to sell him somthing he doesn't need.......and it sounds like that because thats just what it is....somthing thats not needed.

THERES NO MAYBE ABOUT IT


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Thanks allot PC see what you started.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

*It doesn't work right after a full rebuild, it leaks, and it uses 3 gallons/flush.* It sounds like a perfect candidate for replacement. I replace a lot of old toilets, it saves the customer money in water use and most times they flush better too. I am guessing you don't Mr.master, you just fix them all to prove how cool you are.:laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Thanks allot PC see what you started.


 Oh no this is a worthy subject....this is like taking your van in for new tires and after 3 or 4 sets the van doesn't drive straight and then they try to sell you a new car. When really all you need is a good set of tires and a good installer. I work on toilets made in the 20's and 30's....if you cant repair a typical old mansfield without replacing it then it might be time to find some other type of work to do.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

service guy said:


> *It doesn't work right after a full rebuild, it leaks, and it uses 3 gallons/flush.* It sounds like a perfect candidate for replacement. I replace a lot of old toilets, it saves the customer money in water use and most times they flush better too. I am guessing you don't Mr.master, you just fix them all to prove how cool you are.:laughing:


 I dont "fix" anything. I repair it. I'm a repair plumber thats what the people call me to do....repair it. Anybody can replace fixtures...only a handful can repair them. I slaughter the franchises for that reason.....the techs are too dumb to repair anything so they hafta replace it all...in this economy who do you think will be sucessful?


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

PC here is something to check, pull the tank and see if there is dye on the bottom side of the porcelain tank where the flush valve mounting nut attaches to, if so that might not have taken a good seal, and water is able to leak out via that spot.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Didn't mean to start anything.

This customer is being anal. He's worried about a few ounces of water, yet everytime he flushes the toilet he is wasting 1.4 gallons of water.

SG is right. There is a solution, but the cost to get to the bottom of it costs more than replacing the toilet. Mansfield were notorious for bad flushing.

We did two Mansfield toilets for the guy - one is fine, one is not. We've been back once already. We are giving back the cost of the parts since they didn't work. For the time being, he is happy with that. To put his own mind at ease, he is turning off the toilet and marking the water level in the tank. Tomorrow he will see how much water leaked out of the tank.

If it comes down to it, we will credit back the full repair. It is inefficient spending so much labor to track down a few ounces of water especially considering 1.4 gallons is wasted with every flush. We will no longer work on this toilet - the only other service we will offer is replacing the toilet.

It's a plain jane toilet, it's not like it's a special color worth salvaging. The customer is being cheap and spending more in the long run than he would have had he heeded our initial advice.

We repair and fix a lot, but somethings aren't worth repairing and warrant replacing. Not to mention, not worth the aggravation.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> PC here is something to check, pull the tank and see if there is dye on the bottom side of the porcelain tank where the flush valve mounting nut attaches to, if so that might not have taken a good seal, and water is able to leak out via that spot.


Thanks for the suggestion, but that would be another trip and if that's not it, we're stuck with that loss and no closer to the solution.

There comes a point where you have to cut your losses and throw in the towel. Ego would have us keep going back, financially speaking, it is pointless.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Anybody can replace fixtures...only a handful can repair them.


I hope your kidding. Toilet repair is a fairly low level skill for a service plumber.

If I can save my customer THOUSANDS of gallons of water over time, by replacing their old, inefficient clunker with a 1.6 gpf model, I will.
If they refuse, I'll rebuild it, thats fine.

But this isn't about you and me, this about Plumbcrazy's customer. They offered to replace the toilet too from the FIRST CALL, so are you telling me that they are not good plumbers? They even rebuilt the toilet and it still leaks. Its time to get a new toilet.
If he flushes it 3 times/day (very conservative figure), then he is wasting about 4.2 gallons of water/day or 1,533 gallons of water a year. THat is a large waste of money if he's on city water. Not to mention a waste of a precious resource.

Plumbcrazy, show him the figures and ask him if he's like a new toilet with a guarantee. Offer a full refund of the repair, if he goes with a new toilet.

Or replace the flushvalve again, I don't know what your plumber did, or what is wrong, but that is my answer.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Didn't mean to start anything.
> 
> This customer is being anal. He's worried about a few ounces of water, yet everytime he flushes the toilet he is wasting 1.4 gallons of water.
> 
> ...


*Great minds think alike.*:thumbup:
Good call.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Didn't mean to start anything.
> 
> This customer is being anal. He's worried about a few ounces of water, yet everytime he flushes the toilet he is wasting 1.4 gallons of water.
> 
> ...


So your saying you couldn't possibly be just a bad flushvale or flapper you installed? You guys give up too quick. Maybe if you investigate this problem and figure out the real reason why its leaking you will learn somthing for the future. What if you have a bad batch of flushvalves and the next toilet you work on does the samething? I like to find out what the problem is even if it costs me alittle time or money. Atleast when i;m finished i get to see if its the customer f'n with me or its a bad product or whatever. I do not want the reputation of quiting and giving refunds or the reputation of "Shotgun therapy" when you just replace everything you work on. i want the reputation of sticking with a person until there job is complete or with a concrete answer as to why i cant repair it. Not "Oh well i have worked on it twice,see ya heres your money back your too much trouble"

If i read your posts correctly the 1st time the guy worked on the toilet he just replaced the ballcock. Thats wrong right there from the start...the flapper or gasket should have been replaced then the 1st time. Ok then he goes out a second time and replaces the flushvlave/flapper. Then a 3rd time to put dye in it. Why didn't he replace the flapper the 3rd time he was there? it could be a bad flapper.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

service guy said:


> *Great minds think alike.*:thumbup:
> Good call.


 Like a herd of cattle:laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

service guy said:


> I hope your kidding. Toilet repair is a fairly low level skill for a service plumber.
> 
> If I can save my customer THOUSANDS of gallons of water over time, by replacing their old, inefficient clunker with a 1.6 gpf model, I will.
> If they refuse, I'll rebuild it, thats fine.
> ...


 The last time i checked "fixtures" include more than a toilet. Plenty of "Plumbers" who know nothing about repairing a toilet made in 1920 or a faucet or whatever. 1500 gal of city water here costs about 7 bucks.....anything you would like to add now?


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

My 2 cents worth I think this customer is a nut. even if you did replace the toilet I am almost positve that he would find something wrong with that one too. This is really not a question of if the toilet is repairable but how much it cost to make it repairable. You have already made several trips back there on this issue and he still has a problem. Maybe the problem is with the ho. If it took 7 hrs for a toilet to change color in my bowl I don't think it would be an issue with me. If you have to go back there give him the option of a new toilet or live with the fact that he is going to have to pay an extra 2 cents on his water bill every month. I just bought a mansfield for my house and I paid 100 dollars for it. Now you have to ask yourself how much have you spent already on return calls. I have no doubt master that the toilet is repairable anything can be fixed, but when you throw in the cost factor it is just not feasible to continue working on it. I mean if the customer is willing to pay you everytime you come out then I say fine or if he is willing to let you stand there for seven hours and pay you while you wait for the water to change colors I say fine with that too. But to keep making return trips on your time and money I don't think so.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

al said:


> My 2 cents worth I think this customer is a nut. even if you did replace the toilet I am almost positve that he would find something wrong with that one too. This is really not a question of if the toilet is repairable but how much it cost to make it repairable. You have already made several trips back there on this issue and he still has a problem. Maybe the problem is with the ho. If it took 7 hrs for a toilet to change color in my bowl I don't think it would be an issue with me. If you have to go back there give him the option of a new toilet or live with the fact that he is going to have to pay an extra 2 cents on his water bill every month. I just bought a mansfield for my house and I paid 100 dollars for it. Now you have to ask yourself how much have you spent already on return calls. I have no doubt master that the toilet is repairable anything can be fixed, but when you throw in the cost factor it is just not feasible to continue working on it. I mean if the customer is willing to pay you everytime you come out then I say fine or if he is willing to let you stand there for seven hours and pay you while you wait for the water to change colors I say fine with that too. But to keep making return trips on your time and money I don't think so.


 So if you come to my house and attempt to repair my toilet and you supply me with a bad flushvalve or a flapper my toilet is no longer worth repairing. Ok I'll find another plumber thank you. Your making a guy like me happy...thats how I get and keep customers. People are not as dumb as you think. Who changes a ballcock and not the flapper or seal??? Thats asking for a callback when you install a fluidmaster type ballcock(full on full off type) Ok second trip out you change the flushvalve and flapper. On the 3rd trip you do nothing but put dye in it??? Why not change the flapper at that point and maybe your problem goes away...even if its a tiny one. My point is one about REPAIR what if it was a 1.6 toto drake or your favorite toilet??? would you suggest replacing it or would you go back and install a new flushvalve with the assumption that the 1st one you installed is defective??? nevermind the water saving's. This is about a repair to a toilet and why a toilet leaks the GPM is not important. if the man wants his 3 gpf toilet he has the right to keep it and if the china's not broke a real plumber could repair it. To a customer it looks like your trying to sell him somthing he doesn't want and if you repaired one why cant you epair the other and he's not getting a valid answer.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

OK. Normally I do not agree with TM. Here is my .02....

This is only my opinion, nothing personal. You were called to the house to repair a toilet. Not replace. It prolly would be better for the client to replace the old beast. Maybe he likes the way it looks. I dunno. Anywho....

A toilet does not have many moving parts. If it is leaking into the bowl from the tank it can only be getting there from a couple places. 

So you changed the guts. It still leaks. Defective new parts or poor workmanship. A leak over x amount of hours is a leak. There is no middle ground. Leak OR No leak. We don't get paid to stop most of the leak. 

Go back to the house. Do whatever you have to do to fix this toilet. Not replace. Walk away knowing you don't want to work for this individual again. Or tell him to go fly a kite. Have him call another plumber that CAN fix a leaky toilet.

And yes I am cynical this afternoon. Car shopping is stressful.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Oh no this is a worthy subject....this is like taking your van in for new tires and after 3 or 4 sets the van doesn't drive straight and then they try to sell you a new car. When really all you need is a good set of tires and a good installer. I work on toilets made in the 20's and 30's....if you cant repair a typical old mansfield without replacing it then it might be time to find some other type of work to do.


We have completed over 1700 jobs so far this year. Callbacks are minimal and most of the time related to customer supplied materials (cheap faucets).

Eventually everyone runs into something that isn't worth pursuing. IF a novice had worked on it, then possibly a lesson could be learned. Every trip back costs the company $100.00. If the customer was paying the fee, you can bet he would have certainly given up on it trying to find a small leak. 

Could the part be defective? Sure. Will it cost even more money to find out? Yes. It is not worth it to us. Chasing a few ounces of water on our dime while the customer wastes 1.4 gallons every flush is assinine. Could be a slight imperfection in the China too? But we aren't playing Matlock. 

We always repair customers old fixtures and only recommend replacing where it is warranted. Replacing an old 3 GPM is warranted when you consider water is a precious resource. We didn't refuse to repair it. We offered a better alternative. As business owners, we get to decide what is worth pursuing and what is not.

Sometimes it boils down to profitability. Nothing personal, that's business.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> OK. Normally I do not agree with TM. Here is my .02....
> 
> This is only my opinion, nothing personal. You were called to the house to repair a toilet. Not replace. It prolly would be better for the client to replace the old beast. Maybe he likes the way it looks. I dunno. Anywho....
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear car shopping stressed you. If you agree with TM, it obviously affected you deeply. :laughing:

Dealing with customers can be stressful too! We did not find a leak when we went back to the house. This is what the customer is telling us and anyone who does service for a living will tell you, customers can and do lie sometimes. Some will 'tinker' just a little with the repair after you leave and call you claiming it's a call back. Maybe this customer is telling the truth - but we aren't spending hundreds of dollars to prove it either way.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> We have completed over 1700 jobs so far this year. Callbacks are minimal and most of the time related to customer supplied materials (cheap faucets).
> 
> Eventually everyone runs into something that isn't worth pursuing. IF a novice had worked on it, then possibly a lesson could be learned. Every trip back costs the company $100.00. If the customer was paying the fee, you can bet he would have certainly given up on it trying to find a small leak.
> 
> ...



Wowee, you're averaging over 240 calls a month this year? That's a pretty large number PC. :thumbsup:
With what my average job dollar amount is ($350.00) that would put me at about 84,000.00 a month or 588,000.00 for the year so far!
I actually average about 40 jobs a month, some small, some bigger so I would need around 6 full time techs to do that many calls.


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> HELP!
> 
> BUT - he wouldn't let us flush it.
> 
> Any suggestions or info. would be appreciated.


R U KIDDING ME????? He wants you to fix his toilet and you can't flush it.

How exactly do you service a toilet and not flush it???? As soon as he hit you with me with the can't flush it crap I would have done what his last plumber did.... NEXT!!!!


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Eventually everyone runs into something that isn't worth pursuing. IF a novice had worked on it, then possibly a lesson could be learned.


 
I don't think I quite get this way of thinking. If a novice were there, it'd be worth figuring out but because an experienced plumber was involved it's not? There's no way to get around the fact that the toilet is leaking. Also, the problem isn't fixed. It seems pretty cut and dry. Once you agreed to fix it, you need to follow through. In hindsight, the best approach might have been to say it needs replacement and stick to your guns. 




paul


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

IR - As I'm in the grocery store stewing over this whole issue, it hits me. Not 1700 - 747 to be exact. I had just woken up from a nap when I posted that. I was irritable and not thinking straight.

RockSteady - we should have stuck to our guns and insisted on replacing an inefficient toilet.

IP & TM - Personally, I would want to get to the bottom of it and solve the mystery. I am not the one working on it, so that's not my call. From a financial standpoint, I fully support my husband's decision.

Is there a leak? - I don't know. He did not see one or hear any water movement. He performed a dye test and no water leaked into the bowl while he was there. We only have the customer insisting there is one.

IP - Pulling into my spot at the grocery store there was a white/cream Cadillac Escalade in front of me with Illinois plates - don't know why, but I had the urge to floor it . I resisted the urge. :yes:

TM - An hour ago, I would have hit you upside the head with the pot stirring spoon. :laughing:

I feel better now - McD's Cafe Mocha with extra whip and chocolate


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

I have installed a lot of Gerber brand toilets straight from the supply house and the flapper won't seal no matter what you do. I have to put in one of those cheapo blue flappers at the time of install on 3 or more out of 10. Some flappers are just finiky? ( spelling )


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> IR - As I'm in the grocery store stewing over this whole issue, it hits me. Not 1700 - 747 to be exact. I had just woken up from a nap when I posted that. I was irritable and not thinking straight.
> 
> RockSteady - we should have stuck to our guns and insisted on replacing an inefficient toilet.
> 
> ...


Oh man, I like the sound of 1700 better!:laughing: I'm trying to sell bigger jobs all the time, I like doing the repipes etc. I want to get my job count down and my profit level up. I sold a repipe today for next week but it's only a two day job, hoping to do a lot more like that.:thumbsup:


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Plasticman said:


> I have installed a lot of Gerber brand toilets straight from the supply house and the flapper won't seal no matter what you do. I have to put in one of those cheapo blue flappers at the time of install on 3 or more out of 10. Some flappers are just finiky? ( spelling )


The only toilet I sell is Gerber and I've never had that happen. Could it be a Florida thing, the flappers getting melted?:laughing:
We wouldn't have that problem up here in northern Mn.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> We have completed over 1700 jobs so far this year. Callbacks are minimal and most of the time related to customer supplied materials (cheap faucets).
> 
> Eventually everyone runs into something that isn't worth pursuing. IF a novice had worked on it, then possibly a lesson could be learned. Every trip back costs the company $100.00. If the customer was paying the fee, you can bet he would have certainly given up on it trying to find a small leak.
> 
> ...


 I think your customer is trying to either get somthing for free or is a weirdo. I would have told him that toilets are not a perfect piece of equipment and neither are flappers,etc and they are not meant to hold dye and not leak a cap full over 8 hrs. Sure there are toilets that do not leak a cap full but they could if the flapper falls a certain way in some occasions. Thats what should have been told to your customer and put that lion to bed. BUT BUT BUT You just cant go around telling cutomers they need a new toilet because the flapper or the flushvalves leaks....that does not make sense from a plumbing standpoint. Its like your changing the subject and saying it needs to be replaced because it uses too much water.....and the real reason you want to replace it is because you cant seem to repair the leak or even care to repair the leak AND you could just have a bad flapper or a flushvalve thats bad. So its not worth going back and seeing why your plumber or your parts do not work???? nevermind this case in particular...just iin general...Would this sum it up??? 
"IF WE WORK ON IT TWICE AND ITS STILL NOT REPAIRED THEN ITS JUST NOT WORTH REPAIRING EVEN IF WE HAVE BAD DEFECTIVE PARTS AND ITS NOT WORTH THE TIME OR PROFITABLE TO FIND OUT"...????? Do I have that right?


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Maybe this thread should be put to bed, PC will do what she wants in this case, she makes her own decission, thats just business.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I think your customer is trying to either get somthing for free or is a weirdo. I would have told him that toilets are not a perfect piece of equipment and neither are flappers,etc and they are not meant to hold dye and not leak a cap full over 8 hrs. Sure there are toilets that do not leak a cap full but they could if the flapper falls a certain way in some occasions. Thats what should have been told to your customer and put that lion to bed. BUT BUT BUT You just cant go around telling cutomers they need a new toilet because the flapper or the flushvalves leaks....that does not make sense from a plumbing standpoint. Its like your changing the subject and saying it needs to be replaced because it uses too much water.....and the real reason you want to replace it is because you cant seem to repair the leak or even care to repair the leak AND you could just have a bad flapper or a flushvalve thats bad. So its not worth going back and seeing why your plumber or your parts do not work???? nevermind this case in particular...just iin general...Would this sum it up???
> "IF WE WORK ON IT TWICE AND ITS STILL NOT REPAIRED THEN ITS JUST NOT WORTH REPAIRING EVEN IF WE HAVE BAD DEFECTIVE PARTS AND ITS NOT WORTH THE TIME OR PROFITABLE TO FIND OUT"...????? Do I have that right?


Hey Master, SMILE!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: It's just a toilet.:laughing:
Fix it replace it, who cares. It's Saturday, have a beer!:thumbsup:


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> So if you come to my house and attempt to repair my toilet and you supply me with a bad flushvalve or a flapper my toilet is no longer worth repairing. Ok I'll find another plumber thank you. Your making a guy like me happy...thats how I get and keep customers. People are not as dumb as you think. Who changes a ballcock and not the flapper or seal??? Thats asking for a callback when you install a fluidmaster type ballcock(full on full off type) Ok second trip out you change the flushvalve and flapper. On the 3rd trip you do nothing but put dye in it??? Why not change the flapper at that point and maybe your problem goes away...even if its a tiny one. My point is one about REPAIR what if it was a 1.6 toto drake or your favorite toilet??? would you suggest replacing it or would you go back and install a new flushvalve with the assumption that the 1st one you installed is defective??? nevermind the water saving's. This is about a repair to a toilet and why a toilet leaks the GPM is not important. if the man wants his 3 gpf toilet he has the right to keep it and if the china's not broke a real plumber could repair it. To a customer it looks like your trying to sell him somthing he doesn't want and if you repaired one why cant you epair the other and he's not getting a valid answer.


First off I would not attempt to fix your toilet. I would fix it as long as you insist and that you are willing to pay me whatever it cost to fix it. You are assuming that they put in a bad flush valve or flapper we don't know that it hasn't been determined. If you are willing to pay me 500 dollars to fix a 100 dollar toilet I have no problems with that . It just does make sense to me to do that. If you are willing to donate 3 or 4 hrs of your time to work on a customers toilet for free then cudos to you. If a customer is willing to pay you 500 dollars to work on a 100 dollar toilet because he likes to hug that bowl after a night of drinking then double cudos to you. I believe I said in my post that I agreed with you about it being repairable and I still agree with you but my point is does the ho want to pay the possibly high price to have it repaired or pay the set price for a replacement. Thats all I have to say on the subject.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Maybe this thread should be put to bed, PC will do what she wants in this case, she makes her own decission, thats just business.


 Oh comeon Ron...nobodys fighting and I'm not trying to be BIGDADDYNASTY as rockstar says:laughing: I just want PC to get a different point of veiw. I'm not gonna make anymore posts on this subject becuase anymore would just be beating a dead horse. Over the 500 posts i made on this thread,I think I got my point across. The number of trips made to a home is not important as whats done when you get there and whats said. Customers must be "handled" somtimes. And toilets are not perfect and not meant to hold dye for all day.....thats were the problem started maybe.:yes: PC and I are still friends...we have spoke about this privately.:thumbsup:


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Oh comeon Ron...nobodys fighting and I'm not trying to be BIGDADDYNASTY as rockstar says:laughing: I just want PC to get a different point of veiw. I'm not gonna make anymore posts on this subject becuase anymore would just be beating a dead horse. Over the 500 posts i made on this thread,I think I got my point across. The number of trips made to a home is not important as whats done when you get there and whats said. Customers must be "handled" somtimes. And toilets are not perfect and not meant to hold dye for all day.....thats were the problem started maybe.:yes: PC and I are still friends...we have spoke about this privately.:thumbsup:


Come on TM, just a few more posts, you're almost at 1000!:laughing:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I think your customer is trying to either get somthing for free or is a weirdo. I would have told him that toilets are not a perfect piece of equipment and neither are flappers,etc and they are not meant to hold dye and not leak a cap full over 8 hrs. Sure there are toilets that do not leak a cap full but they could if the flapper falls a certain way in some occasions. Thats what should have been told to your customer and put that lion to bed. BUT BUT BUT You just cant go around telling cutomers they need a new toilet because the flapper or the flushvalves leaks....that does not make sense from a plumbing standpoint. Its like your changing the subject and saying it needs to be replaced because it uses too much water.....and the real reason you want to replace it is because you cant seem to repair the leak or even care to repair the leak AND you could just have a bad flapper or a flushvalve thats bad. So its not worth going back and seeing why your plumber or your parts do not work???? nevermind this case in particular...just iin general...Would this sum it up???
> "IF WE WORK ON IT TWICE AND ITS STILL NOT REPAIRED THEN ITS JUST NOT WORTH REPAIRING EVEN IF WE HAVE BAD DEFECTIVE PARTS AND ITS NOT WORTH THE TIME OR PROFITABLE TO FIND OUT"...????? Do I have that right?


Bottom line is this - we clearly indicated to the customer from the beginning that it wasn't worth repairing an old 3 GPF Mansfield for two reasons: 1. The flush was never that great, it's in a condo and builder's grade. Overtime, these toilets get worse. 2. The newer 1.6 GPF will give him a much better flush, fewer clogs, water savings, and cheaper in the long run when you factor in the warranty on a brand new toilet. NEVER did we suggest a new toilet because it was malfunctioning. It was suggested because we felt it was in our customer's best interest.

First repair - $135.00 new toilet would have been $265.00 installed
2nd repair - $145.00

Two repairs cost more than a new toilet would have cost him and still not perfection. 

As for finding out what went wrong - we did go back to determine if it was leaking. We did not see any evidence of a leak - only a customer insisting there was a leak. We only have the customers say that some dye entered the bowl after 7 hours. We could go back again, take the tank off and test it for leakage off the bowl, put in a new flush valve, premium flapper, tank to bowl kit, test it, and feel certain we have repaired it. Dye test again and be satisfied that it's not leaking.

And the customer can call back and insist it's still leaking. If the parts were defective, the leak should have shown up before 7 hours!

My last post on the matter - we are not charging for the repair of this toilet since it is not perfect. We are not investing more time, money, or parts in this toilet at our cost. If the customer wants to pay us to keep tinkering, we are more than willing.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Well, the way i see it is this. If I can't find a leak after dye testing it then there is no leak. some people can just be screw balls, They will have you chasing a wild goose.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ironranger said:


> Come on TM, just a few more posts, you're almost at 1000!:laughing:


When he hits 1,000 will he shut up? :laughing:

I kinda enjoy hearing his other viewpoint! :laughing:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I bet no one mentioned this,


but if the tower assembly was taken out of the toilet on a mansfield and a regular flapper was used...


I can see a toilet leaking dye as long as 7 hours later...or any "flapper" type design inside the tank.


Why does Roast Duck ask such a silly question? 


Because Roast Duck knows trip levers loosen up on the tank and change the chain adjustment, taking the slack right out of the chain.



Roast "heads off to play dungeons and dragons for 8 hours" Duck


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## tnoisaw (Jun 16, 2009)

All this for a Mansfield? Give him a five gallon bucket (I always have a couple in my van) and call it a day. Some people you can't please no matter what and you have to walk away.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

OK, it's been a long time since I've actually seen a Mansfield toilet, and I'm wondering which setup this one has. If it's the drop-down assembly, couldn't it be replaced with a standard flush valve? Or is Mansfield the one that doesn't fit the bowl right when you swap it? 

Were this my customer, I'd go back and find out for sure if it's leaking, then if possible replace the flush valve. For a few bucks, you get a fresh shot at it. Once in a while, you're going to get one that is tough to fix, and that is just free schooling. When you find out what the fix is, you implement that on all similar jobs.

In addition to the above, it is also good to consider that sometimes new flappers can take a few days to settle in - they will form to fit the seat given time, but sometimes they are a bit malformed. And if it's the old Mansfield flush valve, chances are the entire float assembly is warped. Or, it could be that the tank isn't clean enough and bits of debris are sticking to the seal. Or, as Duck said, the trip lever isn't staying adjusted.

Sometimes, if the customer is weird, just sticking with it will show them that you're as good as your word and they'll praise you and get you even more work. Of course, sometimes they're just a-holes and getting as far away from them as possible is the best bet.


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