# Help with water heater venting.



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

My boss sent me to change venting on a 100 gal power vent. He was out here in a estimate and mentioned to the customer that the water heater is improperly vented. It is vented with single wall b vent as shown in pics. Nothing flammable in the area. Now being a power vent he assumed it has to be vented with PVC. This is the first 100 gallon pv I've seen and it looks to me like it is vented properly. It's 100k btu and it looks to me like it has a metal motor and venting due to the extreme heat generated seems like it would melt the PVC. Question is, is this vented properly or do I need to install PVC vent.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

I think the only violation is that the vent is not above the roofline.


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

Not allowed to have single wall indoors around here for a heater. It looks like double wall to me however.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

As far as I know, there is no such thing as single wall B vent. What I see in the photo is just single wall a/c duct pipe.

As far as whether or not the WH should be ran in PVC, you will have to get that info from the manufacturer. Not all power vent water heaters are efficient enough to safely operate with PVC.

If it is safe for PVC then there is probably nothing wrong with the existing vent. Other than style points there may be nothing gained.

I do not recall ever seeing a power vent WH that can have PVC vent piping that a metal outlet to connect the vent to. They are usually plastic with a Fernco type adapter.

Based on the photo, I would not suggest changing that pipe to PVC. B vent maybe, but not PVC.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

You would have to contact your city inspector.

In Texas each city has admendments and change all the time

In my city we can't use anytime of screws or metal tape on the vent


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

So as it turns out the water heater is 9 years old, sounds like rocks rumbling around inside when it's running and it has been cutting out sporadically over the last year.. I recommended she replace it with a Ao smith Vertex 100. I'll be doing it on Monday:thumbup:


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

You must use what the manufacturer requires. If it calls for PVC, you can't reuse the smoke pipe, due to condensation forming in the vent


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> So as it turns out the water heater is 9 years old, sounds like rocks rumbling around inside when it's running and it has been cutting out sporadically over the last year.. I recommended she replace it with a Ao smith Vertex 100. I'll be doing it on Monday:thumbup:


:thumbup:

You are such an evil salesman. :tt2:


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

I'm excited to do it, the vertex 100 is a great heater:thumbsup:


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

RealLivePlumber said:


> You must use what the manufacturer requires. If it calls for PVC, you can't reuse the smoke pipe, due to condensation forming in the vent


Turns out it was right on the inside and wrong outside. It has to go vertical atleat the same distance it goes horizontal and should be above the roof line, but also the piping material outside is incorrect. Condensation would have eaten it up. Should be a stainless steel double wall chimney pipe.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Vertex's are sweet heaters!


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

What kind of price are you guys paying for the vertex 100?


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Sold the job at 5150.00. They cost about 600 more than the eternal gu195


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## No-hub (Sep 1, 2012)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> I'm excited to do it, the vertex 100 is a great heater:thumbsup:


bad ass heaters


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## DIZ (Nov 17, 2010)

Looks ok to me inside the building, outside however would fail up this was in Canada. Could you swap it out to polypro or centrotherm? They make nice sidewall terms, but not sure about the pipe size shown here. Good luck!


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

Yes up here it would fail. Does it work? yes


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Sold the job at 5150.00. They cost about 600 more than the eternal gu195


Uh...where are the after pics?


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Indie said:


> Uh...where are the after pics?


They will come Monday after job is complete.


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Sold the job at *5150.00.* They cost about 600 more than the eternal gu195


Holy **** that seems excessive.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> .... recommended she replace it with a Ao smith Vertex 100. I'll be doing it on Monday:thumbup:


Commercial install of a Vertex 100 in a basement based on the OP photos?

$5,150 sounds pretty damn cheap to me.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Material will be around 2300.00 I think it's a fair price. Our book is around 4700 on it.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

I'm debating on wether or not to install a mixing valve on it. What do you guys think?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> I'm debating on wether or not to install a mixing valve on it. What do you guys think?


What does it serve?


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

It's a 6 bath house, only the parents live there full time, on Friday a bunch of family is coming in for Christmas.. The last thing I would want is for them to run out of hot water. They are going from a 100 gal power vent to a 50 gal. I know the super capabities of the vertex but still.. I want to be safe.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Sold the job at 5150.00. They cost about 600 more than the eternal gu195


 






Does that include all new vent?


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Yes sir. It won't be too bad. I'll have to chip out the wall some for the concentric vent but it's all good, I haven't used my hammer drill in a while. If the hilti is turnin' I'm earnin'.:thumbup:


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TallCoolOne said:


> You would have to contact your city inspector.
> 
> In Texas each city has admendments and change all the time
> 
> In my city we can't use anytime of screws or metal tape on the vent


 Huh????? Then what you use?? Duck tape??? Total qauckery to me..


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> I'm debating on wether or not to install a mixing valve on it. What do you guys think?





plbgbiz said:


> What does it serve?





UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> It's a 6 bath house, only the parents live there full time, on Friday a bunch of family is coming in for Christmas.. The last thing I would want is for them to run out of hot water. They are going from a 100 gal power vent to a 50 gal. I know the super capabities of the vertex but still.. I want to be safe.



Any other opinions?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Any other opinions?


Set temp at 140 or higher and use a tempering valve. That will dramatically increase the gallons of hot water available.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> Set temp at 140 or higher and use a tempering valve. That will dramatically increase the gallons of hot water available.


That's what I was thinking, thanks.


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

Shouldn't ever use temper valve on whole house if it has a dishwasher


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Michaelcookplum said:


> Shouldn't ever use temper valve on whole house if it has a dishwasher


That's what you think ... It is code up here that all hot water tanks need a mixing valve set at 120 f ....

The tank it self has to be turned up past 140 f to kill bacteria in the tank ,,,

So your reasoning is wrong ...

If you wanted higher temp for dishwasher you would need a dedicated line with it's own mixing valve or direct from tank


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

OldSchool said:


> That's what you think ... It is code up here that all hot water tanks need a mixing valve set at 120 f ....
> 
> The tank it self has to be turned up past 140 f to kill bacteria in the tank ,,,
> 
> ...


I dont think people these days are running a dedicated line to the dishwasher and installing mixing valves.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Michaelcookplum said:


> I dont think people these days are running a dedicated line to the dishwasher and installing mixing valves.


Only if you wanted hotter water ....

I am amazed that this is not code in your area ...


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

Mixing valves for DHW are not code out in AB. Yet. I have been told within the next year or two that it will be. 

This past spring they became code for all the respite care houses out here.


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

OldSchool said:


> Only if you wanted hotter water ....
> 
> I am amazed that this is not code in your area ...


So that is code for you? Install mix valve at water heater and run hot fees to DW?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Michaelcookplum said:


> So that is code for you? Install mix valve at water heater and run hot fees to DW?


Mixing valve on all HWT ... We don't run a dedicated line on residential but on commercial we do for DW


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## bcp2012 (Oct 27, 2012)

I have yet to see a mixing valve on a HWT in Manitoba. Only place I've seen them or put them in is nursing homes and hospitals but that is national code for those two places

Sent from my iPhone


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

That's weird because according to health Canada a federal body .. That all HWT have to be protected from bacteria growth .. Thus increase in temperature of water to 140 F ... NPC limits HW outlet temp to 120 F ... Thus mixing valve has to be installed


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## bcp2012 (Oct 27, 2012)

I thought out put of 120 C was for nursing homes and hospitals only. I'd have to check code book. It's been awhile since I looked at it

Sent from my iPhone


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## phishfood (Nov 18, 2012)

bcp2012 said:


> I thought out put of 120 C was for nursing homes and hospitals only. I'd have to check code book. It's been awhile since I looked at it
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


You guys boil the old and sick? No wonder Ma and Pa moved us away when I was a wee lad, and they were still early middle age!!


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## bcp2012 (Oct 27, 2012)

phishfood said:


> You guys boil the old and sick? No wonder Ma and Pa moved us away when I was a wee lad, and they were still early middle age!!


Lol. My mistake I meant 120 F

Sent from my iPhone


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

In 2000, the Walkerton disaster had sent a wake-up call about the safety of Canada’s drinking water. While standards for domestic hot water must consider scald prevention, they must also address the broad spectrum of public health and safety issues. To minimize bacteria contamination, water must be stored at 60 C or higher. 
For example, temperatures under 50 C may increase the risk of Legionnaires’ disease, a form of pneumonia, due to bacterial growth in the tank. That disease is caused by Legionella bacteria, which live in water. Temperature is a critical factor for Legionella to grow. The risk of colonization in hot water tanks is significant between 40 and 50 C. 
Legionella bacteria most often enter the lungs due to aspiration. (Aspiration means choking such that secretions in the mouth bypass the choking reflexes and enter the lung.) Drinking contaminated water is not a major cause of Legionnaire’s disease. 
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates 8,000 to 18,000 Americans contract the disease annually. Five to 30 percent of the cases are fatal. While Canada has no national statistics, Hydro-Québec says about 100 people a year are hospitalized in that province for pneumonia caused by contaminated residential water heaters.


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## bcp2012 (Oct 27, 2012)

I understand 100% O.S. all HWT have to be set at 140 F. But do they consider a shower valve a mixing valve? Most shower valves now are pressure balanced and have the scald guard built into them. Personally I've never seen a mixing valve in a house and I've never put one in or ever been called out on it by an inspector

Sent from my iPhone


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

bcp2012 said:


> I understand 100% O.S. all HWT have to be set at 140 F. But do they consider a shower valve a mixing valve? Most shower valves now are pressure balanced and have the scald guard built into them. Personally I've never seen a mixing valve in a house and I've never put one in or ever been called out on it by an inspector
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


What about the rest of the fixtures ..


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## bcp2012 (Oct 27, 2012)

All I remember seeing in the NPC was that showers and tubs had to be tempered at a max 49 C nothing about other fixtures. But like I said I haven't look at code book in awhile so I could be wrong

Sent from my iPhone


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## mpot (Oct 2, 2012)

bcp2012 said:


> I understand 100% O.S. all HWT have to be set at 140 F. But do they consider a shower valve a mixing valve? Most shower valves now are pressure balanced and have the scald guard built into them. Personally I've never seen a mixing valve in a house and I've never put one in or ever been called out on it by an inspector
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


A pressure balanced faucet Will not regulate the max temp. Only a temp change due to loss of pressure or flow from hot or cold side. If the heater is set at 160...full hot should give you 160. 

Only a few situations call for a mixing valve at the water heater around here. Schools max temp at fixture is 105f. Same for nursing home and other medical facilities. Tanks must be set above 125f here so obviously a mixing valve must be used. 
This is enforced by the health dept though. Not plumbing inspector.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

bcp2012 said:


> I understand 100% O.S. all HWT have to be set at 140 F. But do they consider a shower valve a mixing valve? Most shower valves now are pressure balanced and have the scald guard built into them. Personally I've never seen a mixing valve in a house and I've never put one in or ever been called out on it by an inspector
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


Not sure about Canada but here you are not supposed to be able t get over 120F from the fixtures. A pressure balanced shower valve is not necessarily a temperature limiting valve.

Edit: Oops. Seems that bcb already covered my point quite well.


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## bcp2012 (Oct 27, 2012)

mpot said:


> A pressure balanced faucet Will not regulate the max temp. Only a temp change due to loss of pressure or flow from hot or cold side. If the heater is set at 160...full hot should give you 160.
> 
> Only a few situations call for a mixing valve at the water heater around here. Schools max temp at fixture is 105f. Same for nursing home and other medical facilities. Tanks must be set above 125f here so obviously a mixing valve must be used.
> This is enforced by the health dept though. Not plumbing inspector.


I realize that with a pressure balanced faucet. I'm just saying that I've never seen a mixing valve at the HWT other then In nursing homes or hospitals. Maybe they not enforcing it here? I don't know

Sent from my iPhone


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## mpot (Oct 2, 2012)

bcp2012 said:


> I realize that with a pressure balanced faucet. I'm just saying that I've never seen a mixing valve at the HWT other then In nursing homes or hospitals. Maybe they not enforcing it here? I don't know
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


Most of my work is residential. I have never had an inspector inquire about a mixing valve let alone ask about the temp of the heater. I'm lucky if they get out of the car. Pisses me off sometimes. 
The little commercial work I've been involved with have always had the fixtures spec'ed with individual mixing valves at each lav or other sink station. Kinda seems like an after thought to me. 
I'm not aware of any codes in the NPC that require a mixer for residential. Maybe someone can burst my bubble.


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## mpot (Oct 2, 2012)

I'm really just trying to get to 750 posts so I can be considered worthy of the hidden threads!


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

mpot said:


> I'm really just trying to get to 750 posts so I can be considered worthy of the hidden threads!


Don't worry when you get close enough they will raise the limit to 1,000


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## bcp2012 (Oct 27, 2012)

mpot said:


> Most of my work is residential. I have never had an inspector inquire about a mixing valve let alone ask about the temp of the heater. I'm lucky if they get out of the car. Pisses me off sometimes.
> The little commercial work I've been involved with have always had the fixtures spec'ed with individual mixing valves at each lav or other sink station. Kinda seems like an after thought to me.
> I'm not aware of any codes in the NPC that require a mixer for residential. Maybe someone can burst my bubble.


Me to most of my work is residential but some commercial service. Like I said before the only NPC code I'm aware of for mixing valves is on showers or tubs and most shower valves have limit stops to set your temp

Sent from my iPhone


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

...


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> ...


Please don't tell me that 4th pic is of your work....braided supply!! Wtf!


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Michaelcookplum said:


> Please don't tell me that 4th pic is of your work....braided supply!! Wtf!


I think they come like that ... That a mixing valve supplied by the manufacturer


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Michaelcookplum said:


> Please don't tell me that 4th pic is of your work....braided supply!! Wtf!


Just a pick from the net to show mixing valves.

But OS is correct, that is probably the recommended install from the manufacturer.


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## swedishcharm21 (Oct 29, 2011)

To the OP- Based off looking at your pictures, you fail. Least here in Michigan you would. To pass here, you could use 26 guage flue pipe until you exceed 6 feet in developed length away from the hood (flue hat). Once you exceed 6ft, you have to use dbl wall flue pipe. This is all I can tell you as far as running metal piping for your vent off the heater. You also have to use dbl wall whenever you are penetrating through any type of wall, regardless of distance.

One major problem that will occur is the flue pipe is going to rust.


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