# Water Heaters going to Box Stores, tell them how you feel.



## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Make no mistake about it. AO Smith and State are considering moving everything to the box stores. I was just sent over a survey from Contractor Rewards, specifically regarding my feelings about them going direct to the box stores. 

Here is the link to fill out the Survey. You get 150 Rewards points for completing the survey which is about Home Depot. 

https://opinio.performancepro.com/opinio/s?s=yrtzwhjythzuxq5yrtzwzuxq5&opdata_paxId=71639

I was sure to let them know how I feel about the situation. I also let them no that I do not service water heaters sold at box stores. :thumbup:


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

And for those of you who don't already realize this, Home Depot and Lowes aren't just a competitor to Plumbing Supply houses. They compete with plumbers on what is starting to become an unfair advantage. Just wait until next year when the new efficiency requirements go into effect.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Forgot the image.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

yes, they will find guys who will go out for home depot and install the heater for $250..

.. but its not going to be me...


I did the survey and I dont think they will like my answers


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> yes, they will find guys who will go out for home depot and install the heater for $250..
> 
> .. but its not going to be me...
> 
> ...


Actually I remember when this was the case a ways back "have yur water heater installed for $249.00...Get yur garbage disposal installed for $99.00 but they got in trouble out here for doing plumbing only repairs with a general lic. 
Now they have Deltal Mechanical doing their installs and they are rarely ever under $1150 out here for basic installs, in fact I can now offer my price to a customer and if that ask about Home Depot I can relay their info on the website and show them the Con's as there are no Pro's


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

plumberkc said:


> Forgot the image.


Howdy KC! Have you tried typing in some common info through this link. I can reference this website for any install based on a customers needs and literally have gotton the to ahead on most and I get about $175 more than I used to before finding this link, so it's a fully worked to my advantage


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

"What do you think of selling a wholesale brand water heater in stores?"

Not Very Smart! :laughing:


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

I let 'em have it in the survey................


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

A friend of mine who is an A/C contractor does installs in the Orlando area for Sears. He tells me that Sears sends some guy out to do the estimates that is working of course on commission and doesn't know the trade like an A/C mechanic does. Not that commission is bad; I am not saying that it is. But it can make an inexperienced 'salesman' for Sears into a selling maching who is out there trying to sell people all new ductwork. Maybe the customer needs some ducts replaced, maybe not. My friend didn't say.

Back to my point. Sears takes a big healthy cut from the pie and my friend get a sliver of a slice. He told me what he makes on an install working all day for a Sears job, but I don't remember. He'd be earning more if Sears wasn't in the picture.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Their survey had alot of questions about smartphones and social media and less about what I consider to be more important.

The comment at the end was up to 200 characters. I ran out rather quickly.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

The only real problem with this situation is the BW WH are already in high demand and short supply, at least in my area. I know they are suppose to be increasing their factory space but not sure to what extent. 

It doesn't matter what brand I install, my customers will always have a better experience. A DIY customer is much more likely to return the water heater due to damage created in mishandling, improper installation, or ignition error. This creates additional costs for the manufacturer and is a major factor that needs to be recognized.


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

A customer of ours just bought a Rheem tankless from Home Depot, we're going to install it Wednesday. Hooray...


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

504Plumber said:


> A customer of ours just bought a Rheem tankless from Home Depot, we're going to install it Wednesday. Hooray...


I refuse. Wait until one fails out of the box on you. All of the extra work and time comes out of your pocket.

David


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## Plumbbum0203 (Dec 14, 2011)

Our supplier switched to rheem couldn't get Bradford white anymore


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

dhal22 said:


> I refuse. Wait until one fails out of the box on you. All of the extra work and time comes out of your pocket. David



They think it saves them money until they realize the 100$ savings comes in the form of us having to buy an isolation kit.

At least the "jacuzzi" tankless' come with it.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Plumbbum0203 said:


> Our supplier switched to rheem couldn't get Bradford white anymore



Mine too. Of course I don't buy Rheem from them anymore so they lost out.

David


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

504Plumber said:


> A customer of ours just bought a Rheem tankless from Home Depot, we're going to install it Wednesday. Hooray...


 
you are gonna have a real good time with that....

I hope it did not get dropped on its head....


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

just had a call from someone on my side of town claiming he has a home depot gas water heater and it wont stay lit....... 

calls me tonight at 5pm... he claims that the repair folks that do the warranty work on the heater cannot come out to their house till next friday:laughing::laughing::laughing::thumbup:

he wants to know if I will do the warranty work tomorrow cause they dont like taking cold showers..:no::no::no: NO WAY not for what they pay:no::no: I might be lucky to get 90 dollars out of Rheem for half a day of my time



and where am I supposed to get a thermopile and a honeywell t stat on memorial day weekend...???. 

I told him I would come out in the sm on sat, but it would be normal holiday costs and all C.O.D. Its his problem to attempt to get re-imbursed from HD if he wants to.... :laughing:..


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

See,, these folks have no idea what they are getting in to . I'm getting real tired of having to fix everybody crap that they think is so great and SO CHEAP !


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

Costco already sells ao smith heaters


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## jc-htownplumber (Feb 29, 2012)

victoryplbaz said:


> Costco already sells ao smith heaters


And Rinnai tankless the rep told me it's approx. 4500$ for the install.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> just had a call from someone on my side of town claiming he has a home depot gas water heater and it wont stay lit.......
> 
> calls me tonight at 5pm... he claims that the repair folks that do the warranty work on the heater cannot come out to their house till next friday:laughing::laughing::laughing::thumbup:
> 
> ...


this is your problem if you do the install. 
That's whyi don't install big box retailer heaters. I keep 10 or so heaters of all sizes at my shop so I never have to tell a customer they have to wait until Monday.

David


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

victoryplbaz said:


> Costco already sells ao smith heaters


 
I did not know this... 

so they actually have a decent selection
on site???

The rumor I heard from my "Rheem salesman" was that Smith had bought out whirlpool and was gonna shi/can that line and take their place in the Lowes stores.....:blink:

he claims that is the reason Rheem moved so fast with HD.. was to get their name brand out there before Smith beat them to it.....

.
Now GE is down in louisville starting another line of water heaters on their own and not through Rheem.
I just cant wait to see what kind of junk they come up with..

.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> this is your problem if you do the install.
> That's whyi don't install big box retailer heaters. I keep 10 or so heaters of all sizes at my shop so I never have to tell a customer they have to wait until Monday.
> 
> David


 
I believe that you are a very wise man.....

I do the same exact thing.....
and I always keep 4 stocked in my box truck 

installed a 50 electric at 7.30 last night...they did not
care how much it was gonna be on memorial weekent


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## bambam (Mar 25, 2014)

I personally don't have a problem with any if it. We exclusively install Brad White, and enjoy replacing that junk. People get what they pay for, and most of the time it's what they can afford. On the other had, homeowners are lazy and don't think it's important to do their homework.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> Their survey had alot of questions about smartphones and social media and less about what I consider to be more important.
> 
> The comment at the end was up to 200 characters. I ran out rather quickly.


My comment was considerably shorter. Two words. The first started with an F and the second with a Y :thumbsup::laughing:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> I believe that you are a very wise man.....
> 
> I do the same exact thing.....
> and I always keep 4 stocked in my box truck
> ...


There's two dozen 40 gallon Bradford's sitting on pallets in the shop as we speak. They will be gone within the month.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Love Bradford White but they got pushed out of my area. Installing State/AO Smith for the last 3-4 years.

David


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Yep, truthfully, they are all pretty close in quality and really, do we want them lasting 40 years :no:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Yep, truthfully, they are all pretty close in quality and really, do we want them lasting 40 years :no:


I like them to fail at 6yrs + 1 day.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> I like them to fail at 6yrs + 1 day.


So does the manufacturer.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> I like them to fail at 6yrs + 1 day.


As long as another company installed it, I like them to fail period. :laughing:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

"A. O. SMITH, A WHOLESALE BRAND SOLD ONLY TO CONTRACTORS

We'll never leave your side!"

Quote above taken directly from Contractor Rewards e-mail dated 5/20/2014. If they do sell out . . . they need to be reminded of their promise!


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> "A. O. SMITH, A WHOLESALE BRAND SOLD ONLY TO CONTRACTORS
> 
> We'll never leave your side!"
> 
> Quote above taken directly from Contractor Rewards e-mail dated 5/20/2014. If they do sell out . . . they need to be reminded of their promise!


Good point.

David


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

Phat Cat said:


> "A. O. SMITH, A WHOLESALE BRAND SOLD ONLY TO CONTRACTORS
> 
> We'll never leave your side!"
> 
> Quote above taken directly from Contractor Rewards e-mail dated 5/20/2014. If they do sell out . . . they need to be reminded of their promise!



Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

AO Smith has been available in hardware stores and sears for years


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Will said:


> AO Smith has been available in hardware stores and sears for years


Bradford White, too.


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

Junk products, bad installs, no maintenance, inferior quality plumbing material, etc..... 

Reasons why real plumbers will be more in demand in the future, added to the shortage that already exists. Locally we are feeling the pinch of not having enough qualified plumbers. 

The demand for quality work seems to be growing exponentially around here.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

I saw this BW today, surprised that it wasn't a Rheem.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

plumberkc said:


> I saw this BW today, surprised that it wasn't a Rheem.


Is it held up by magic?

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Plumber said:


> Bradford White, too.


Are the Bradford's under another label? Never seen it


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

plumbdrum said:


> Is it held up by magic? Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


It's being held up by the flue.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

all we can do is hope for the best. i am waiting for walmart to start selling water heaters. it probably will happen sooner than later. what brand will give in to them. you never know. the only way we can compete with them is by not servicing the big box store junk. :no:


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

plumberkc said:


> It's being held up by the flue.


Now that is just awesome!!!!!!!!!!!

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

To those that install Rheem, I personally have not installed a Rheem water heater in probably 4-5 years. Are the ones at Home Depot the same that was at the Plumbing Supply shops? I've heard they have different gas valves, but beyond that didn't know if there was a difference on them.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Will said:


> To those that install Rheem, I personally have not installed a Rheem water heater in probably 4-5 years. Are the ones at Home Depot the same that was at the Plumbing Supply shops? I've heard they have different gas valves, but beyond that didn't know if there was a difference on them.


They have a different model number. Probably same crab that HD pulls on their shower valve cartridges. Take some cheap crap made overseas and slap a US brand on it.


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## PeckPlumbing (Mar 19, 2011)

Home depot here now sells all the rheem stuff we exclusively sell. Actually since rheem changed all the product names its rather confusing.. since a professional series is actually a standard,... professional classic plus, rheem platinum, performance platinum plus. Its getting harder to sell water heaters when people see the same stuff at home depot and then think they are saving 300$ by having the HD installers do it. I don't even think they get permits for the installs.. considering the permit is 100$ outside city limits here!.. or maybe they make 9$ an hour.


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## PeckPlumbing (Mar 19, 2011)

plumberkc said:


> They have a different model number. Probably same crab that HD pulls on their shower valve cartridges. Take some cheap crap made overseas and slap a US brand on it.


Made in Mexico :whistling2:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Will said:


> Are the Bradford's under another label? Never seen it


Bradford White was making the Lochinvar Water Heaters before Lochinvar was bought out by AO Smith...

Now they might as well be a Whirlpool...:laughing:


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Bradford White was making the Lochinvar Water Heaters before Lochinvar was bought out by AO Smith... Now they might as well be a Whirlpool...:laughing:



I've never run across Lochinvar here, where they a hardware store brand or through supply house?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Will said:


> I've never run across Lochinvar here, where they a hardware store brand or through supply house?


 
locihinvar used to be made by bradford white, then it got bought out by A.o.smith....

It WAS a good brand before it was bought off, 

but now it is basically been totally re-made in smiths image and about exactly the same thing that Whirlpool sells...

we have a place in town called plumbers supply that sells them but I wont touch the "new lochinvar":no:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Will said:


> I've never run across Lochinvar here, where they a hardware store brand or through supply house?


They were a less than common water heater brand in supply houses, the bulk of their product line is in commercial and residential boilers...


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

I say: "who cares!!" 

You may have to rethink your bread and butter, but the idiots will never be able to compete with good plumbers. 

In my town, handymen install water heaters for $200... 

I fix 'hot water systems' and all of their phac-ups... 

Don't be scared of a little competition... Especially when your opponent is a megalithic idiot.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Square D breakers and GE load centers are available at the big box. All the sparkies are starving now, right? :whistling2:

If you are in the business of selling water heaters, you are already out of business. You just don't know it yet. :laughing:


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I told a local old school supply house (no computers) about HD selling rheem the other day. They are a rheem dealer. They were kinda pissed. Not sure how they didn't know but I kinda suggested they could drop rheem and use a different manufacturer being rheem has no loyalty.


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

Had a chance to stop by a Home Depot today and check out their new Rheem heaters. 

The new line has some impressive "Features" when comparing to what we provide.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Saturday night I replaced a 3 year old Rheem Hybrid Electric water heater. It was for a property management company that had purchased 58 units. 

So far they said they had issues with 4 of the 58, this being the 4th. Needless to say they property manager was pretty fed up with Rheem. I guess they had been messing with this water heater all week. They were sent the wrong parts, spent $150 on an electrician, and replaced the motherboard and still without hot water.

I told them I do not repair Rheem, I replace them.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

plumberkc said:


> Saturday night I replaced a 3 year old Rheem Hybrid Electric water heater. It was for a property management company that had purchased 58 units.
> 
> So far they said they had issues with 4 of the 58, this being the 4th. Needless to say they property manager was pretty fed up with Rheem. I guess they had been messing with this water heater all week. They were sent the wrong parts, spent $150 on an electrician, and replaced the motherboard and still without hot water.
> 
> I told them I do not repair Rheem, I replace them.



They should call the person who installed these 58 units or did a handyman install them?

David


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

dhal22 said:


> They should call the person who installed these 58 units or did a handyman install them? David


From the looks of the install it wasn't a plumber. They have CPVC going to Sharkbite to pex which went all the way to the wh.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Just had a call for a water heater. Had 3 year old whirlpool which had issues from the first month. Over the coarse of 3 years they had spent several weeks without hot water and had spent hours on the phone with customer service. They finally had Lowes agree to replace the tank but were told it would be 15 days before they could do the install. 


I'm sure these new Rheem tanks are going to be just as bad as GE & Whirlpool. With the poor service the box stores provide, the Rheem name will be trashed within 3 years.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Quote taken from 6/3/14 Contractor Rewards newsletter.



> A. O. SMITH: SUPPORTING YOU THE PROFESSIONAL CONTRACTOR
> 
> A. O. Smith water heaters in a big box just doesn't work!


At the time it was written, I am sure they meant it. My proposed change:

"A.O. Smith water heaters in a big box just doesn't work, but we reserve the right to change our minds when it affects our bottom line."

Let's face it, everything evolves! I am starting to wonder if we are all doing ourselves a dis-service by fighting the inevitable. The older I get, I question drawing a line in the sand. I used to feel 'superior' taking a stand for what I believe to be right. Experience is starting to show that I am the one ending up on the losing end.

Taking the high road may make for a better night's sleep, but there is no denying the road and journey are lonely.

What happens when all water heaters are available through Big Box? You refuse to service all water heaters? How are you serving your customer at that point?

Do we refuse to rebuild toilets purchased from Big Box? I think not!

Times have changed, and we cannot go back. One thing I am absolutely certain of is that one day the Big Box will find themselves with an outdated business model, replaced with something they cannot conceive because it has not been thought of yet.

I think Charlie Greer may have said it "Evolve or Die." Seemed over the top at the time, now, I think it's right on.

What say you?


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Water heaters are different than toilets. For starters, there just isn't enough room on the shelves for all the different types if water heaters available. They are also much easier to work on and have more universal parts. 

I have considered refusing to install any toilet other than Gerber. Usually doesn't take much convincing. If I had a valid reason or argument I would probably go that route. Water heaters make sense, I don't want to get a callback because it quit working. I could warranty against clogs for 1 yr with all Gerber toilets to help convince the customer but other than that it's hard to sell.

AO Smith not going to box stores is huge right now. Effex is one of the only water heaters that meets the new efficiency requirements without going power vent. 

Thanks to everyone who completed the survey, our voices have been heard!


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

plumberkc said:


> Water heaters are different than toilets. For starters, there just isn't enough room on the shelves for all the different types if water heaters available. They are also much easier to work on and have more universal parts.
> 
> I have considered refusing to install any toilet other than Gerber. Usually doesn't take much convincing. If I had a valid reason or argument I would probably go that route. Water heaters make sense, I don't want to get a callback because it quit working. I could warranty against clogs for 1 yr with all Gerber toilets to help convince the customer but other than that it's hard to sell.
> 
> ...


When you install h.o. supplied materials, they should be informed what you are covering = no callbacks. If their junk requires service, we charge for it. 

H.O. supplied water heaters, we warrant our connections only. Everything else is on them, including standard warranty work.

We explain upfront why ours is a better value in the long run. We have not reached the point of refusing to install h.o. supplied items. IMO, we would be alienating a large segment of the market, which is not wise from a business standpoint. 

Consumers want choices, not to be reprimanded like children. Most come around when presented with logic, the rest eventually get there after being burned by going cheap one too many times.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Phat Cat said:


> When you install h.o. supplied materials, they should be informed what you are covering = no callbacks. If their junk requires service, we charge for it. H.O. supplied water heaters, we warrant our connections only. Everything else is on them, including standard warranty work. We explain upfront why ours is a better value in the long run. We have not reached the point of refusing to install h.o. supplied items. IMO, we would be alienating a large segment of the market, which is not wise from a business standpoint. Consumers want choices, not to be reprimanded like children. Most come around when presented with logic, the rest eventually get there after being burned by going cheap one too many times.


Installed a glacier bay kitchen faucet today. It leaked from the start and didn't let any water through. Had to wait while customer went to HD to buy a Delta. I didn't charge any extra but it are up an extra hour out of my day.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

plumberkc said:


> Saturday night I replaced a 3 year old Rheem Hybrid Electric water heater. It was for a property management company that had purchased 58 units.
> 
> So far they said they had issues with 4 of the 58, this being the 4th. Needless to say they property manager was pretty fed up with Rheem. I guess they had been messing with this water heater all week. They were sent the wrong parts, spent $150 on an electrician, and replaced the motherboard and still without hot water.
> 
> ...


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

plumberkc said:


> Installed a glacier bay kitchen faucet today. It leaked from the start and didn't let any water through. Had to wait while customer went to HD to buy a Delta. I didn't charge any extra but it are up an extra hour out of my day.


Most junk from HD/Lowes is on my will not install list, or has been. More and more I just state that everything beyond the install price is extra. I don't run into Glacier Bay/ Aqua source much.

David


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

plumberkc said:


> Installed a glacier bay kitchen faucet today. It leaked from the start and didn't let any water through. Had to wait while customer went to HD to buy a Delta. I didn't charge any extra but it are up an extra hour out of my day.


Why didn't you charge extra? 

We had a customer who supplied his own Kohler highline toilet. Leaked from the bowl. He got another one, same thing. We were paid for two installs. Lowes reimbursed him for the labor on the second one. 

He may think twice next time. Even though he was reimbursed, it still cost him time and aggravation. 

Hate Glacier Bay. Real garbage there.


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I've installed Lowes water pumps.....talk about garbage. If it were my company I would say no but I'm just an employee so I do what I'm told.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*REDWOOD...MY CHANNEL LOCKS WON Today!!*



Master Mark said:


> locihinvar used to be made by bradford white, then it got bought out by A.o.smith....
> 
> It WAS a good brand before it was bought off,
> 
> ...


 

I got a call today about a Lochinvar water heater that they could not get to re-light..... It is the new style unit , but I am not sure of the thermopile on the unit..it appears to be totally different from the Icons and others out there... I did not tear down the unit to look at the workings because it was satruday and I had my trusty yellow channel locks with me........


Well, redwood I thought you ought to know that my 
Yellow channel lock pliers did the job today with only a few wacks on the honey-well valve...


first I made sure that the connections were good from the t-stat down to the unit

second I tapped the re-set button a few times


third , I took my trusty yellow channel locks and lightly wacked the unit a few times to show it who was boss...


It fired right up and I wrote her a bill for $89 dollars. and I was off

.
Redwood, I always wack the unit with the yellow insulated of the pliers. its much more gentle and still gets the job done....:laughing::laughing:


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> I got a call today about a Lochinvar water heater that they could not get to re-light..... It is the new style unit , but I am not sure of the thermopile on the unit..it appears to be totally different from the Icons and others out there... I did not tear down the unit to look at the workings because it was satruday and I had my trusty yellow channel locks with me........ Well, redwood I thought you ought to know that my Yellow channel lock pliers did the job today with only a few wacks on the honey-well valve... first I made sure that the connections were good from the t-stat down to the unit second I tapped the re-set button a few times third , I took my trusty yellow channel locks and lightly wacked the unit a few times to show it who was boss... It fired right up and I wrote her a bill for $89 dollars. and I was off . Redwood, I always wack the unit with the yellow insulated of the pliers. its much more gentle and still gets the job done....:laughing::laughing: http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/pictures/view_alone.nhtml?profile=pictures&UID=10526


 Did the invoice say - " whacked gas valve with channel locks to ensure proper operation.....$89.00"? Lol

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

My Channel locks have blue insulated handles. Nothing ever with an adjustable nut on it.

David


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

jmc12185 said:


> Did the invoice say - " whacked gas valve with channel locks to ensure proper operation.....$89.00"? Lol
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


 

actually those are yellow well pump pliers,,,,

the invoice just states 
...checked out and "adjusted " honey-well thermostat.
adjusted thermopile connections, adjusted high limit switch.

also checked for lint build up...no probelms evident. lit water heater.


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

Ours have a spot for recommendations. I would have put replace gas valve or water heater and write down model and serial #. Some valves are so expensive that if its out of warranty its not worth fixing.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Thursday afternoon the Rheem Reps are supposed to be graceing the town with their presence and have granted an audiance to their supplier of 40 years to hear their suppliers complaints about this box store situation....


it looks like the supplier is going to invite me 
and two other plumbers in town to "sit in " on this meeting and 
voice our issues too...... 
I am going to pullup this site and let them 
read everyones complaints... .


this ought to be fun if it all comes together:laughing:
but I know they are just gonna jerk us all off
with a bunch of sweet talk..... they dont really care what
we think or do about it....


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## Burner tech (Oct 24, 2013)

Only the lochinvar residential and commercial tank types are a.o smiths. The commercial boilers and non tank type water heaters are still the same old units.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

I wished more suppliers would voice their disappointment.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> I wished more suppliers would voice their disappointment.


 
actually, probably ALL the suppliers of Rheem have voiced their disappointment... Rheem states that the box stores make up about 20% of their market and they dont want to lose it... and they have given HD the same price that their suppliers get....


 I feel that says a lot about what they think of the other 80% of the guys in the trenches that sell their water heaters for them day in and day out..... 

basically they have told their suppliers ...
 if they dont like it........ "lump it"


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> I wished more suppliers would voice their disappointment.


Would be even better if all their suppliers banded together and gave them an ultimatum. Better pricing or we walk!


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> Would be even better if all their suppliers banded together and gave them an ultimatum. Better pricing or we walk!


This would be sweet.

David


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Phat Cat said:


> Would be even better if all their suppliers banded together and gave them an ultimatum. Better pricing or we walk!


 

Phat Cat.... they are all gonna walk where??? 

 Are they gonna start selling whirlpool water heaters:laughing: State:laughing:?? 
How about American.:laughing:.?? 
What other choices are their??

there is nothing but junk on the market right now
and Bradford White is 8 weeks out on most of their 
shipments because the factory is partially shut down
for maintaince...



IMHO...
Rheem is the best on the market and they know it...
now they can rough everyone up and get away with it
because they know they can...... ...


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Rheem does not make the best water heater, not the worst but definitely not the best.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

How is it the 'best' water heater?

David


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

plumberkc said:


> Rheem does not make the best water heater, not the worst but definitely not the best.


plumber kc..
In your honest opinion, which is the best one..??
Which one does well in Kansas city?? What ones are you having good luck with?

I think the last fellow that I debated with about water heaters went totally postal on me... so I dont want to have that happen ever again....


In my region with extremely heavy LIME..
I am getting on average about 10-14 years out of the Rheem units.... with soft water.the.

I am getting about 4-8 out of the bradfords..with soft water

my data comes from the fact that I have been changeing them out since 1975 and I got a mind like a steel trap . I remember back when we used to install Smith heaters 
and in 1995 they moved to Mexico and they went to hell in a hand basket.

I honestly dont even want to think about any of the other brands out there....


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

I installed an AO Smith GCVL 40 the other day and both heat trap nipples were installed backwards from the factory. Flow seemed ok when one faucet was running but dropped significantly when running 2 or more. Took it apart and sure enough both heat traps were backwards, I love it when some assembly line flunky wastes my time.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> I think the last fellow that I debated with about water heaters went totally postal on me... so I dont want to have that happen ever again....



Oh, you debated someone? I must've missed that. 

Hey, MM, tell me this, when you say you've "adjusted" a Honeywell by whacking it with a pair of pliers, how do you adjust it back? Whack it on the other side? How does one measure the calibration of your adjustments?



Rheem is advertising in PHC mag that they have a new "professional" line of water heaters with a standard 8 Year warranty. That's a plus, but at what cost?

Not that it matters to me. I'll stick with Bradford White and their so-called difficult to replace thermopile>


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## SHR Plumber (Jul 28, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> I am getting on average about 10-14 years out of the Rheem units.... with soft water.the.
> 
> I am getting about 4-8 out of the bradfords..with soft water
> 
> ...


My experience has been very similar. I have made a lot of money lately replacing 6-7 year old Bradford Whites. Different models but all Bradford White leakers. I will never install one.

I install Rheem exclusively. I am not going to debate anyone on which brand is best. I have had good luck with the Rheems and will stick with what is working for me.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

SHR Plumber said:


> I will never install one. I install Rheem exclusively. I am not going to debate anyone on which brand is best. I have had good luck with the Rheems and will stick with what is working for me.


 No offense but you're a Journeyman plumber, so you should only be installing whatever your boss tells you to install.(unless your area is different) I'm not saying that Rheem is bad, I'm pointing out the fact that they don't care whether their units are installed by a licensed plumber or some handyman/hack who doesn't care to install it up to code. The reputation of a water heater manufacturer is only as good as the service providers ability to correctly install and diagnose potential issues.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Titletownplumbr said:


> I installed an AO Smith GCVL 40 the other day and both heat trap nipples were installed backwards from the factory. Flow seemed ok when one faucet was running but dropped significantly when running 2 or more. Took it apart and sure enough both heat traps were backwards, I love it when some assembly line flunky wastes my time.


I've installed over 100 in the last 6 months without a single issue. On the other hand I tried to install 1 Rheem short 50 in a Saturday and pulled it out of the box to find a huge dent.


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## PeckPlumbing (Mar 19, 2011)

I wonder if rheem has increased the size of its customer service department because of all of the homeowner related questions. If so I bet the pricing will go up along with that. I can imagine whats going to happen if the warranty department dispatches an authorized seller to fix someones botched up job under 'warranty labor rate' . 

wait wait.. does this mean home depot IS the authorized warranty service people? So they can send out the same guys who botched it up the first install? I don't like the sound of this!

Its probably going to be really unreasonable just like ISE where they pay what 40$ for a service call? So, home depot will pay their subs 20$ to go out.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

PeckPlumbing said:


> I wonder if rheem has increased the size of its customer service department because of all of the homeowner related questions. If so I bet the pricing will go up along with that. I can imagine whats going to happen if the warranty department dispatches an authorized seller to fix someones botched up job under 'warranty labor rate' .


*That may be the single biggest issue with manufacturers going to box.* My customers should never have to call a 1-800 number. They call me because they know I'll stand behind the product I installed and have the skills and training to fix the problem.


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## Ptturner91 (Oct 13, 2012)

I really don't know why you are all worried about this

Customers who hire handymen to do this stuff are the type who have called around for lowest price, or they think they can do it themselves and save money
These are all customers you don't want anyway, these are the people who will nickel and dime you Every time, these are the kind of customers who won't have loyalty but they'll go with the lowest quote

Rheem will offer a "professional" type so it might be the same thing with a diff sticker but you can use your mark up and make money


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## SHR Plumber (Jul 28, 2013)

plumberkc said:


> No offense but you're a Journeyman plumber, so you should only be installing whatever your boss tells you to install.


There is that. Even I am not naive enough to contradict the boss. I like to get a paycheck! Fortunately he does not like problems either.

I think we can all agree there are good brands and really bad brands of water heaters. Hopefully whatever brands we choose to install, we all only install water heaters that our customers are going to be happy with for a long time.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

ChrisConnor said:


> Oh, you debated someone? I must've missed that.
> 
> Hey, MM, tell me this, when you say you've "adjusted" a Honeywell by whacking it with a pair of pliers, how do you adjust it back? Whack it on the other side? How does one measure the calibration of your adjustments?
> 
> ...


 
Well, good for you......

I am real happy for you that it dont matter to you
 and you have totally gotten over it.... :yes:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

ChrisConnor said:


> Oh, you debated someone? I must've missed that.
> 
> Hey, MM, tell me this, when you say you've "adjusted" a Honeywell by whacking it with a pair of pliers, how do you adjust it back? Whack it on the other side? How does one measure the calibration of your adjustments?
> 
> ...


 
I think we are all entitled to our opinions...and of course you use whatever you feel it best .

For me, The Rheem is just a more simple valve control all around...

I think there is just more to go wrong with the Icon over a
normal control that rheem uses...

I finally got my pictures to work properly... the blue rheem control has recently been replaced with a robert shaw control
and the only thing to work on is the common thermo-coupling and control... 

The icon just has more to go wrong with it , 
I dug up about 15 of the Icon valves in our shop and tore one apart just for kicks.


I also got some pics of the new Rheem heater that goes to the HD
and it has the honey well controll on it ... I think its gonna be trouble 
when the home owner cant figure them out 

... 

Also posted a picture of my calibration tool in the last pic......


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Drip legs on your water heaters people.


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## Absaroka Joe (Mar 30, 2013)

I was kind of glad to see HD selling Rheem. Just another place to get one when needed on the weekend and maybe even on weekdays. My supply house regularly wholesales their products to local retailers certainly much cheaper than they sell them to me, so I feel no great loyalty to my supply house. We are in the business of providing plumbing service to those who seek it and not the business of retail fixture sales. Also, a DIY homeowner is not a threat or a normal customer for us. And btw, many homeowners are well capable of properly installing a simple water heater if its a job they wish to do.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

You mean like this? That's the P&T kinked off nicely. Just love those homeowner installs in a condo where four families would be royally screwed by a water heater explosion.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Letterrip said:


> You mean like this? That's the P&T kinked off nicely. Just love those homeowner installs in a condo where four families would be royally screwed by a water heater explosion.


Scary! If they are gonna sell potential bombs, they should at the very least take an aptitude test.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

JK949 said:


> Drip legs on your water heaters people.


 I believe this is very important. I've never had a single issue with a Icon valve on BW. I put in atleast one a week, and have never had one malfunction. I install drip legs everytime


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## wallingford (Nov 16, 2013)

I totally agree, even if a plumber wasn't totally convinced of the usefulness of the drip leg why not put it in... Its a t and cap, only gonna take 5 more minutes to be code and probably be useful.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Will said:


> I believe this is very important. I've never had a single issue with a Icon valve on BW. I put in atleast one a week, and have never had one malfunction. I install drip legs everytime


It is odd to think that 1 plumber can have many problems with a part and another never has a problem. And I mean nothing about the plumber just the oddity with the different failure rates.

I have had zero problems with the Icon valve.

David


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Since I’ve opened my doors about 10 months a go I have not installed a single water heater. I’ve had many phone calls but they all ask the price in their first sentence. They are not interested in my speech, all they want is to know the price.

When some do listen to me giving a ball park figure they say HD or another big box store installs them for 150$. I try to explain, that’s the starting point and by the end the subcontractor will charge 3-5 times more and it will not be installed to code.. Nope they don’t want to listen the ad says 150$(with an asterisk!!) 

Anyway its imposible to do that for for 150$. First a new installation now needs a catch pan that has a drain all the way to a floor drain or drain pipe. The T/P also has to be piped to the drain. That means sometimes you have to run a drain through walls and or floors. Then the installation needs to be declared to the building ministry for the amount of 22$ and a report needs to be filed and mailed to them.

I’ve seen many recent installations where the work is all crooked, the pipes from the house are copper but they transition in pex prying sideways without using any elbows and looks like crap or they use flex tube (As if the o-ring won’t dry out soon) I also see capped drain lines and the t/p tube goes to knowhere. Cheap plastic drain pan that are split in half.

It’s real discouraging that these supposedly professional companies do hack work like that and I bet they don’t file the paperwork. On the good side I don’t have to deal with getting a heater from the supply store and drag it in someones dungeon. Getting rid of the old one probably hurting my back and driving all the way to the recyclers...


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> Since I’ve opened my doors about 10 months a go I have not installed a single water heater. I’ve had many phone calls but they all ask the price in their first sentence. They are not interested in my speech, all they want is to know the price.
> 
> When some do listen to me giving a ball park figure they say HD or another big box store installs them for 150$. I try to explain, that’s the starting point and by the end the subcontractor will charge 3-5 times more and it will not be installed to code.. Nope they don’t want to listen the ad says 150$(with an asterisk!!)
> 
> ...



you are getting bottom feeders calling you for prices...I know what you are going through.... Mostly they bait and switch and the price usually is 3 times higher than advertised....

these places usually burn out fast and go through sub-contractors like water.....

In alberta canada I guess the home owner can do the work himself and not even get a permit for it???


also what are you charging for a 40 gallon gas installed that makes people recoil and run away.... Ben franklin prices????


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> you are getting bottom feeders calling you for prices...I know what you are going through.... Mostly they bait and switch and the price usually is 3 times higher than advertised....
> 
> these places usually burn out fast and go through sub-contractors like water.....
> 
> ...



That's an excellent question, in my province of Quebec a homeowner can do his own plumbing in his residence. What I don't know if he has to declare it and send in fees because on the form it asks the contractor's licence number. There may be a loophole there, I will definitely find out this week. Its not a permit that we have its a"declaration" It only asks the customer address and such and you have to send a cheque after the work is done.

I don't install gas water heaters, as I would need a contractor gas licence on top of a plumbing licence and the insurance is supposedly very expensive. all the ones who called me were going to buy their water heater.

My ballpark is 3 hours of work and they supply it. There's always issues like a leaky valve, you have to clear the area or worse all the faucets jam from the black sediments in their copper pipes when you turn the water on. I give myself buffer time...
If I had to supply one I'd charge around 4 hours, 
Disposing it would be another 0.5 hour


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## CaptainBob (Jan 3, 2011)

Tango, charging 4 hours at whatever you figure your hourly rate is in line with what it should be. That's what I base my prices on. Drive time, picking up heater at supplier, permit if necessary, install, haul away old heater and debris, changing the valve and gas valve if needed, going over the operation and any other questions the customer may have, and settling up on the invoice.

Like MM said, you are getting calls from the price shoppers, tire kickers and other cheap azzes. You will never get any work from them so don't waste your time and don't get upset. And I don't install any owner supplied water heaters, not only for warranty and insurance reasons, it's usually those people who want to supply their own.

Home Cheapo and other big boxies have been doing that for years. Ever since they have been around they have tried offering installs at cheaper than possible. What I heard they pay the installer more than what they charge the customer, somehow they got it figured out where they still make money, or they lose money trying to make a foothold in the market, either way it's still not enough. If they could have cornered the market on water heater installs they would have done it by now.

In the past year I too have not had any water heater installs from any first time calls I have received. I'm sure its the price shoppers that are calling, if I wanted to do it for so cheap that I did it for free then I would have got the job. I have only had a few from my regular customers I do work for or a call from someone I have done work for before.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> That's an excellent question, in my province of Quebec a homeowner can do his own plumbing in his residence. What I don't know if he has to declare it and send in fees because on the form it asks the contractor's licence number. There may be a loophole there, I will definitely find out this week. Its not a permit that we have its a"declaration" It only asks the customer address and such and you have to send a cheque after the work is done.
> 
> I don't install gas water heaters, as I would need a contractor gas licence on top of a plumbing licence and the insurance is supposedly very expensive. all the ones who called me were going to buy their water heater.
> 
> ...


I would rather install a water heater for 400-500 than sit around on my ass all day long waiting to hear from some old lady who stopped up her toilet... or some crawl space full of ripe goodies.....
its too depressing to me:crying: 

Home depot has some clowns who are doing a bait and switch thing and will insist you have too high an incoming pressure then play the game on the customer.... Prv valve and therm tank for an extra $700

the one plumbing company finally got kicked out of the store due to sticking it to the customer badly... 
Now they have someone else at bat.....

in this area no one needs permits, and its the wild west basically....
I try to service all the junk they sell because the HD stores do not carry
repair parts for what they sell .... and they are screwed.....

doing a few water heaters in a day or week is not a bad gig and you ought to look into getting your name out there on .google ....if you can get on the front page under the organic listing for water heater repair ..
then you are in for a fun ride......

or you can wait for the phone to ring and 
go spelunking in a crap filled crawl space....:devil3:..

. 



..


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## CaptainBob (Jan 3, 2011)

That's a pretty good price you have there, MM... I'm guessing your total install cost is about $1000.00-$1100.00, not including if you need an expansion tank or anything else... if you can do a couple of them $1000 for a day's labor income isn't too bad...

If I was not busy I would probably do it for that, but right now I am booked out for a week and a half. I could squeeze one in for the right price in that time.

For some of the calls I get, 400-500 is too much. They are looking for the $100 install price. They can go stick it where the sun don't shine for that...


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Yep I'm on google, I show up if people are nearby, the rest seem to call me because of my reviews. I haven't set up for for water heater repair but its a good idea.

This week I made it pretty good since its dead of winter and its my first winter with all new customers, the service companies usually lay off a lot of employees during this slow time. I did 3 small jobs during the week and 2 this weekend.

As for splooshing (spelunking) I don't get that too often, Not many people have crawl spaces, I see it in 100 year old houses or houses by the river. Even then I usually don't fit in the tiny trap door where only a 1st years apprentice would fit. I let them know before I get there and if they still want me to service them I let the home owner go shut the water if I can't fit in.

Most houses I service are houses are from 1978 to new houses. I see videos of old houses on youtube but I usually see nice places.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> Yep I'm on google, I show up if people are nearby, the rest seem to call me because of my reviews. I haven't set up for for water heater repair but its a good idea.
> 
> This week I made it pretty good since its dead of winter and its my first winter with all new customers, the service companies usually lay off a lot of employees during this slow time. I did 3 small jobs during the week and 2 this weekend.
> 
> ...



Set up a web site with a name like "water heater repair quebec" and put your info on it and you will be surprised

this is one of our competitors who I dont have a clue to what their actual name is ......http://www.indianapoliswaterheaters.com/ 

I am sure that they get enough calls to keep the site up and running at least they have some skin in the game.... the site looks pretty nice for just being generic and un-named front company for who knows who...... 

they are supposed to have a plumbing lisc # on the site and I should turn them in over this..... they have basically hi-jacked my waterheatersindianapolis.com idea and flipped it around....

the site looks nice though....


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

There is one company that does only water heaters. I used to see their trucks everywhere. Now I don't see it. I checked them out this weekend reading this thread. The strange part on their website is that they say they repair and install them but they don't have a plumbing license. I need to call the association to find out how they get away with it. Maybe they are allowed to post those ads using a subcontractor?




> they are supposed to have a plumbing lisc # on the site and I should turn them in over this..... they have basically hi-jacked my waterheatersindianapolis.com idea and flipped it around....


I wouldn't hesitate in turning them in. We have a system to turn in illegals where we can provide our name or anonymously. If you provide your name they give you updates to the claim. We worked hard for those licences and we pay a lot of money so no remorse for them.

I'm not sure if I'd want to specialize in water heaters. Its one thing to replace parts but if I need to replace a 60 gallons all by myself with icy outside stairs, polished wood interior stairs it would not be a good idea. I know 2 guys who hurt their backs doing plumbing and now they are a little over minimum wage at big box stores. Surely making less than the rate of a 1st year apprentice. Makes me cringe thinking about it.

I do like to fix faucets, I have the 4 major brands here fully stocked cartridges and interior parts that probably no one in the area has as much.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> There is one company that does only water heaters. I used to see their trucks everywhere. Now I don't see it. I checked them out this weekend reading this thread. The strange part on their website is that they say they repair and install them but they don't have a plumbing license. I need to call the association to find out how they get away with it. Maybe they are allowed to post those ads using a subcontractor?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the company in your neck of the woods is probably using a loophole called "appliance installation" and claiming a water is like being an appliance like a gas stove its not considered plumbing....... 

they do that here too.... Water softener companies do not need a plumbing lisc to install softeners ...

doing heaters is an easy gig as far as I see it..... I installed a 75 galllon gas last thursday down an extremely difficult flight of outdoor cellar stairs with a helper that stayed until we got it down.... Gave them a 12 year tank warranty total bill was $$00... 
I was done and gone by 1pm.. and did a delta tub and shower faucet that afternoon

The flu was in a tight spot , in a dirty cellar 
but I can do those all week long.. 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1ALRz8cquXBtoyHB3


https://photos.app.goo.gl/0GWgHu0vtoAqjHjm2


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> the company in your neck of the woods is probably using a loophole called "appliance installation" and claiming a water is like being an appliance like a gas stove its not considered plumbing.......
> 
> they do that here too.... Water softener companies do not need a plumbing lisc to install softeners ...
> 
> ...


I doubt there's a loophole here, as soon as something water is attached to it's a plumber unless a washing machine probably. Water heater definitely plumbing.

That's why you do water heaters, you have a helper. I would need to hire a secretary to fill paperwork for the mountain of rules and laws for an employee. He would have to be an aprentice plumber, I would have to sign him up to the Construction commision, provide a guaranteed number of hours, work mans comp, goverment paperwork, and other organization I'd have to fill monthly reports, number of hours, send them monthly checques to everyone and a long list of things.

It's Fu/king nuts!!:sad2: The asociation is preparing a document to present the government because contractors are burdened in legal stuff.

I wouldn't want to hire just some Gilligan guy. It would turn sour real quick.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

In the 2nd picture those are your helpers? :biggrin:

That's good money! I'll get there when I get many calls this summer. One drippy faucet at a time!


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

Mark 
looks like a very flat vent on that water heater,


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

I Did Service Work from 1975 to 2004 when I became too Disabled to do Plumbing work anymore,
besides regular service, I specialized in water heater work for all the Major MFG'S**doing Warranty Service, a good way to get your name out in front
of people
Since 2004 been doing Sales of Plumbing tools and Sewer Equipment and other like products to Plumbers


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> I doubt there's a loophole here, as soon as something water is attached to it's a plumber unless a washing machine probably. Water heater definitely plumbing.
> 
> That's why you do water heaters, you have a helper. I would need to hire a secretary to fill paperwork for the mountain of rules and laws for an employee. He would have to be an aprentice plumber, I would have to sign him up to the Construction commision, provide a guaranteed number of hours, work mans comp, goverment paperwork, and other organization I'd have to fill monthly reports, number of hours, send them monthly checques to everyone and a long list of things.
> 
> ...


I cant hire anyone either, I probably fly off the handle and kill the sob in a few weeks . I refuse to pay someone who does not want to even work 30 hours benefits . I just had a relative that is also a plumber come over thursday morning and help me he-man the heater over the celler door lip and down the stairs. 

I have been dealing with a couple of pathological liars recently... I was attempting to throw a couple of start up guys---- like yourself--- back up sewer calls and other things I cannot even find the time or want to do.... 
I give them the calls for free gratis and they screw them all up.and lie through their teeth about the jobs.. I was just trying to be generous to
these smaller hungry companies and its just a waste of time.....

It sounds like that your local government is attempting to hamper and bury everyone in paperwork..you should look into how these other companies dodje all the regulations you claim that hinder you.......



the dogs are my helpers down at our winter-time creek

.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> I cant hire anyone either, I probably fly off the handle and kill the sob in a few weeks .
> 
> .


Damn that's funny! :biggrin:

When I can't do a job when someone calls they always ask me who I can refer them to. I never do because I don't know if they'll do a good job or not. I want to keep my good reputation that I'm slowly building. 3 more 5/5 reviews this week!

Thank you Mark for all the helpful tips. It is much appreciated.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> Damn that's funny! :biggrin:
> 
> When I can't do a job when someone calls they always ask me who I can refer them to. I never do because I don't know if they'll do a good job or not. I want to keep my good reputation that I'm slowly building. 3 more 5/5 reviews this week!
> 
> Thank you Mark for all the helpful tips. It is much appreciated.



I have trained a good number of guys that were just raw kids , 3 nephews that worked summers for me while still in high school .....
and a few others over the years...... 
I dont mind training someone that just dont know what they are doing....I have the patience to show them ...its no problem.

but I despise a pathological liar who cannot admit that they made a mistake and try to fabricate some story to get out of trouble... those kind of guys have a stink that seems to linger about them......

I cant be around them for long... ....


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Hiring top shelf talent is virtually impossible. Ridiculous hourly salary and full benefits is the only way I've managed. Even then I'm still involved everyday.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> Hiring top shelf talent is virtually impossible. Ridiculous hourly salary and full benefits is the only way I've managed. Even then I'm still involved everyday.



I gave up on that dream a long time ago..... 
you could pay someone 45 an hour with full benefits and a new truck to drive and they still will behave like they are on a slave plantation being forced to pick cotton..... or act totally clueless and not self motivated.....

it might go along good for a month or two, but then they always want to kick back and call in sick here and there usually right when you need them the most.... and the cigarette breaks get longer and longer.... or you cant find them and they are not answering their phones...

those are fond memories.... and I dont miss those days at all....

I will just do it myself...


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

When I was an employee I was raised by old school plumbers and pipefitters. They always took time to do a proper and straight job. As an apprentice you'd learned from them to do a good job. The bosses at that time were fine with that. We'd get a Christmas dinner sometimes a gift.

Now it's the other way around The employers expect a first year apprentice to take a set of plans and work on their own. I've seen a few first year apprentice be in charge of a commercial project and you as a seasoned plumber you aren't treated well.

I haven't seen large companies have a Christmas lunch or dinner since over 15 years.

In the last decade I was criticized by my bosses or foreman because my work was straight the way it is supposed to be. They praised their guy who were fast, skipped hangers, pried piping, no need to measure. They were the champions. They would say the warranty is only 1 year, who cares after that. I remember on one job one job a guy who rarely never come in on time . 2-3 times a week he'd be late at work 30 minutes to 2 hours. He was the foreman's favorite, he was the last guy of 21 to stay at that job.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

I’ve had employees and many apprentices over the past 3 decades. I can only think of one who never disappointed me. He started at 18 and was with me for a few years. My mistake was going on about him to the office. Our BIM guy was listening in and the next thing you know they tell me on a Friday that he’s going to be trained on the total station starting Monday! :vs_mad:
He was just a good kid, humble, hard working and smart. He would ask me how something looked? I would say, ‘I guess it’s acceptable ‘- it would drive him nuts because he always wanted it perfect.:biggrin:


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

It's called workmanship. Something that can be lost in today's market.

Back in 1977 when I first apprenticed the Master I worked under worked lead & cast way before plastic or even copper really hit the market.

He used to say "it hurts my eyes". Took me several years before I understood. Never feel put down for quality work. It separates the pros form the average or less.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

GAN said:


> It's called workmanship. Something that can be lost in today's market.
> 
> Back in 1977 when I first apprenticed the Master I worked under worked lead & cast way before plastic or even copper really hit the market.
> 
> He used to say "it hurts my eyes". Took me several years before I understood. Never feel put down for quality work. It separates the pros form the average or less.


I think my high quality work paid off because now I get customers taking the time to register an account to be able to write an eloquent and positive review. Getting business referrals used to be word of mouth, now the referrals are the reviews. Women love it when I bring my cleaning supplies and clean their cupboards and my work area. No trash left at their house.


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