# $650.00 water heater installations



## younger-plumber

lately ive been undercut several times by someone installing heaters for 650.00.. how can anyone make a profit at this rate... blows my mind!


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## dclarke

I'm assuming that's electric water heaters ?


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## SchmitzPlumbing

is that just for the install or with the heater. what is it , electric, power vent etc. is there supposed to be a permit, is it in a basement. details buddy .............


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## Gruvplumbing

$650.00. What's wrong with that?


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## SchmitzPlumbing

if its electric, $350 in materials leaves $300 left for a job that takes less than 2 hours with the drive.


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## Hoosier Plumber

No way a legit plumber is doing installs that cheap. 

We lose to hacks and non-plumbers semi-regularly. The customer is to blame because they are shopping for cheap first with no concern for quality. Kick those types to the curb and move on to people who want quality and value. 

Had a price shopper call today and ask for a water heater price over the phone. Told him our cost and he said thank you I'm calling around for prices. Figured the job was lost and couldn't care less. 

He called later today and told me we were the least expensive and I said "Dang it I don't want to be the least." no jest intended in my tone at all. 

The heater is leaking but he is probably not getting the new one until Friday. 

I need to finish reviewing my rates because I'm not sure who else he called but dang it I'm not going to be the least expensive. :laughing:


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## Gruvplumbing

What's your definition of a hack? We can install a 50 gal electric easily for 650.00.


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## Tommy plumber

Hoosier Plumber said:


> *No way a legit plumber is doing installs that cheap. *
> 
> We lose to hacks and non-plumbers semi-regularly. The customer is to blame because they are shopping for cheap first with no concern for quality. Kick those types to the curb and move on to people who want quality and value.
> 
> Had a price shopper call today and ask for a water heater price over the phone. Told him our cost and he said thank you I'm calling around for prices. Figured the job was lost and couldn't care less.
> 
> He called later today and told me we were the least expensive and I said "Dang it I don't want to be the least." no jest intended in my tone at all.
> 
> The heater is leaking but he is probably not getting the new one until Friday.
> 
> I need to finish reviewing my rates because I'm not sure who else he called but dang it I'm not going to be the least expensive. :laughing:











You haven't been to FLA lately....:laughing:


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## Tommy plumber

Here is a local ad from a nearby plumbing company. Claims to be licensed & insured.


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## Hoosier Plumber

Gruvplumbing said:


> What's your definition of a hack? We can install a 50 gal electric easily for 650.00.


No legit outfit around here is doing a 50 gallon electric 650.00. 

Reading into hack as licensed outfits would be way off base. The sentence clearly stated non-plumbers. 

We lose to all sorts of non-plumbers be it a g.c. who does plumbing, a HVAC company that does some plumbing, the guy next door, etc....

650.00 is cheap in my opinion and I'd guess your billable rate is not much different than ours.


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## Gruvplumbing

Hoosier Plumber said:


> No legit outfit around here is doing a 50 gallon electric 650.00. Reading into hack as licensed outfits would be way off base. The sentence clearly stated non-plumbers. We lose to all sorts of non-plumbers be it a g.c. who does plumbing, a HVAC company that does some plumbing, the guy next door, etc.... 650.00 is cheap in my opinion and I'd guess your billable rate is not much different than ours.


I'm sure our rates are pretty far apart. Small town with all of our work in a 10 to 15 mile radius.


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## SchmitzPlumbing

if $650 is way too cheap, in your opinions, what should the price be? how much do you clear per hour on other jobs? water heater replacements in my opinion is an easy way to make some quick money.even at $650.


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## Leach713

Around here is 800+


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## mrjasontgreek

We can typically do a 40Gallon electric heater between $500-$700. That's pretty much the going rate around here.


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## Hoosier Plumber

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> if $650 is way too cheap, in your opinions, what should the price be? how much do you clear per hour on other jobs? water heater replacements in my opinion is an easy way to make some quick money.even at $650.


50 gallon electric: 850.00. 

That is hard piped, disposal of old, and a Bradford White. 

Won't discuss hourly in open forum but you can do the math as heater prices are fairly easy to average. 

It's my contention a 2 hour job actually takes 3 hours when counting in loading time, disposal, van cleaning, and other unaccounted for time related.


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## MNplumb1

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> if $650 is way too cheap, in your opinions, what should the price be? how much do you clear per hour on other jobs? water heater replacements in my opinion is an easy way to make some quick money.even at $650.


I agree would love to get more but sometimes it just doesn't happen. 

I know I have done a changeout in a hour multiple times easily making $200+ in that hour. Still way over my hourly rate.


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## Hoosier Plumber

1 hour install

Is that from pulling into driveway to leaving with a check?


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## Coolcanuck

We only do gas up here, 1050 for a 40. We don't charge an extra for valves venting or moving connection height. We're in a northern zone and our wholesale costs are a little more.


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## vinpadalino

$1000.00-$1200.00. Take it or leave it fine by me lol...


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## plungerboy

This will make you sick 


http://www.mrwaterheater.com/pricing-table/


Then they nickel & dime you. 

I hate leader adds.


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## Nathan901

That's about the rate in my area of FL.


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## MNplumb1

Hoosier Plumber said:


> 1 hour install Is that from pulling into driveway to leaving with a check?


Not saying it is everytime but yes it does happen. Most times with check in hand.


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## Hoosier Plumber

MNplumb1 said:


> Not saying it is everytime but yes it does happen. Most times with check in hand.


Maybe I just suck. :jester:

With each install we add new dielectrics a bit of copper, a new drip leg. 

Are you using flex lines? 

Is that a solo job or with help?


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## Nathan901

An electric heater in a garage I can easily do in an hour by myself. I actually did one one today. 

Hard piped in copper, all sweat joints. New valve, pan, relief piped into the wall. 


Thing is, when I do a water heater, my goal is to bring everything I need at once. Load it all on the hand truck. 
Going in and out to your truck adds up and de-rails your focus.


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## Hoosier Plumber

Nathan901 said:


> An electric heater in a garage I can easily do in an hour by myself. I actually did one one today.
> 
> Hard piped in copper, all sweat joints. New valve, pan, relief piped into the wall.
> 
> 
> Thing is, when I do a water heater, my goal is to bring everything I need at once. Load it all on the hand truck.
> Going in and out to your truck adds up and de-rails your focus.



Okay, that makes more sense. In a garage does help. 

Many we work on are in mechanical rooms back in house or in basement for the most part.


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## Tommy plumber

Nathan901 said:


> An electric heater in a garage I can easily do in an hour by myself. I actually did one one today.
> 
> Hard piped in copper, all sweat joints. New valve, pan, relief piped into the wall.
> 
> 
> Thing is, when I do a water heater, my goal is to bring everything I need at once. Load it all on the hand truck.
> Going in and out to your truck adds up and de-rails your focus.












An old-time journeyman whom I worked for as his apprentice told me that he and his helper would replace 40-gal elec. W/H's in Miami, FL in 30 minutes. The helper would cut the old one loose and wheel it out of the garage {full of water} and the Journeyman would start to solder the copper adapters onto the copper. {no di-electric unions were used down there}. These were slab-on-grade homes with the elec. W/H in the garage. They showed up with the new heater.

Personally, I am not installing _anything_ in 1/2 hour. I like to put on a good show.....:laughing:...but seriously, people don't feel that they are getting their money's worth if the plumber is out of there and it makes their head spin. 

I am not the fastest plumber in the west, nor do I want to be.


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## plbgbiz

I don't remember the last time we set a water heater for less than $1000. It has probably been at least 15 years since I have put one in for 600. 

Somebody needs to run their numbers. At the very least, reevaluate the worth of the service they provide. :whistling2:


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## Hoosier Plumber

Tommy plumber said:


> An old-time journeyman whom I worked for as his apprentice told me that he and his helper would replace 40-gal elec. W/H's in Miami, FL in 30 minutes. The helper would cut the old one loose and wheel it out of the garage {full of water} and the Journeyman would start to solder the copper adapters onto the copper. {no di-electric unions were used down there}. These were slab-on-grade homes with the elec. W/H in the garage. They showed up with the new heater.
> 
> Personally, I am not installing _anything_ in 1/2 hour. I like to put on a good show.....:laughing:...but seriously, people don't feel that they are getting their money's worth if the plumber is out of there and it makes their head spin.
> 
> I am not the fastest plumber in the west, nor do I want to be.



I agree putting on a show helps, but the cost of doves is eating into the bottom line. :laughing:


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## younger-plumber

I get 1100 dollars for a 50 gallon electric installed.


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## younger-plumber

I used to do them on the side for 800 hahahahaha


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## sparky

Tommy plumber said:


> You haven't been to FLA lately....:laughing:


Or he hasn't been to ky lately:yes:


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## Shoot'N'Plumber

plbgbiz said:


> I don't remember the last time we set a water heater for less than $1000. It has probably been at least 15 years since I have put one in for 600.
> 
> Somebody needs to run their numbers. At the very least, reevaluate the worth of the service they provide. :whistling2:


Couldn't agree more plbgbiz, ill take a 1 water heater for my target customer over 2 customers that could care less what their getting and think they can dictate what the going rate is and only hear complaints as to why its so expensive.


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## plbgbiz

Tommy plumber said:


> You haven't been to FLA lately....:laughing:





sparky said:


> Or he hasn't been to ky lately:yes:


Or Oklahoma. We all have them and CL makes 'em famous.

Matters not to me. I would rather go fishing and spend money, instead of going to work to do it.


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## Cajunhiker

Water heaters are priced - for the most part - based on the length of time of the manufacturer's warranty, i.e. 6 yrs, 9 yrs or 12 yrs. 

Do yourself and all of us a favor and charge enough so you can put some $ into retirement, some into savings, some into a truck fund, some for a profit and enough to cover your overhead - ON EACH AND EVERY JOB YOU DO whether it's a water heater or not. 

In other words, if you continue to charge $650 for a water heater swap out, you are not putting anything toward retirement or savings or a truck fund. You are prolly just paying for your labor and materials and falsely thinking you are making a small profit.


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## Gruvplumbing

Cajunhiker said:


> Water heaters are priced - for the most part - based on the length of time of the manufacturer's warranty, i.e. 6 yrs, 9 yrs or 12 yrs. Do yourself and all of us a favor and charge enough so you can put some $ into retirement, some into savings, some into a truck fund, some for a profit and enough to cover your overhead - ON EACH AND EVERY JOB YOU DO whether it's a water heater or not. In other words, if you continue to charge $650 for a water heater swap out, you are not putting anything toward retirement or savings or a truck fund. You are prolly just paying for your labor and materials and falsely thinking you are making a small profit.


Or maybe the guys who have to charge 1100 to replace one don't spend there money wisely. Does nobody invest there money. Or how about your shop being payed for by others investments. As in if I hung up the plumbing business tomorrow I'll still be making money. Not sure why people put there eggs in one basket. Maybe try to invest your money and be alittle wiser with. I'm in this trade bc I love it not bc plumbers are millionaires.


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## plumbdrum

Nathan901 said:


> An electric heater in a garage I can easily do in an hour by myself. I actually did one one today. Hard piped in copper, all sweat joints. New valve, pan, relief piped into the wall. Thing is, when I do a water heater, my goal is to bring everything I need at once. Load it all on the hand truck. Going in and out to your truck adds up and de-rails your focus.


Was it gas going into a masonry chimney? CO detector?

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Master Mark

I am instaling a 40 gallon rheem today in a pan for 
879.00...gonna do it myself and keep the labor and expences
low.... No thermal exp tank included but if they want one add on another 95.

I talked to this person on Sunday night and after "Old Ben" went there on monday and told them 1499, and charged them 50 bucks they called me back last night. She said tht the fellow could not even look her in the eye whenhe quoted the price out of the book.:laughing:

its a good gig, I would like to charge more for one but you wil lose 5 times more than you will do .. 

ok, I am not gonna get mega wealthy doing in but its better than rolling in sewage all day long.. 

 personally I would rather be doing work over sitting around sweeping the shop, waiting for the phone to ring and that big fish to land on my doorstep......


n


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## plumbdrum

plumbdrum said:


> Was it gas going into a masonry chimney? CO detector? Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Never mind

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## plbgbiz

Whenever I here Plumbers bragging of lightning fast WH change outs being their norm and the hook they hang their hat on, there are often other facts that go along with it.

First of all, they show their tendency toward hedging on their real billable hour numbers. The reality is WH jobs take much longer than an hour to do properly. Not only on the job but before and after as well. The materials don't just drop out of the sky. I seriously doubt they dispose of themselves either. If they did, maybe your truck magically cleaned itself out as well. So basically, nobody is spending one hour on any measurable number of WH jobs. If you maintain that you are, then you know nothing about billable hours or your misrepresenting the facts. I suspect it is a measure of both.

Part of the conversation always focuses on how they are making plenty of money doing it at a cut rate. All I will say to that is...bull. Especially the One-Man-Shops. If the OMS thinks he is raking it in on $650+/- WH jobs, then he needs to park his truck until he understands how to figure his cost of doing business.

Finally the third aspect that ALWAYS shows up seems to be a self esteem issue. For some crazy reason, many Plumbers are scared to admit why the go to work. With all do respect Gruv, you know damn well you don't go to work as a Plumber because you love it. If you want to try and sell that lie to us, fine but I'm not buying. I certainly hope you are being more honest with yourself and your Dad. If you are really planning on growing you family's business, you might want to start with going to work for money rather than emotion.

Are Plumbing Business Operators millionaires? Not too many. Also, not near enough of them nor as many as could be. I personally see nothing wrong with it and I see no reason why it should not be a goal. One thing is for sure, if the main reason you want to take the reins of your Dad's business is because you love plumbing, do him, yourself, your family, your customers, your vendors, and any other employees of the business a favor. Stay a 'tech'.

A business should be operated because you have a passion to be a Plumbing Business Operator with the goal of being as profitable as possible. Otherwise, the PBO should NOT be operating a business.

Again Gruv, not meaning to throw sand in your eye, just giving my opinion.


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## SunnyDaRench

40 $1,150
50 $1,250
75 $1,700
That's the going rate for a licensed shop in queens, nyc for gas atoms. Vent. There's guys doing Them for half that around here also, my fav. Is " my pilot is out on my water heater, and my plumber told me to call Manu. It's only a month old" I always explain to customer the (ones shopping around) we stand behind what we install, plus it's one of the most important appliances in your home. Keep shopping


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## Gruvplumbing

Plbgbiz, your one of the few guys on here that I have respect to what you have to say. And I don't listen when you have something to say. But most of the time when we do time and material 650.00 is what it comes out to be. For a 50 gal electric. Keep in mind if someone is calling around for prices that's not what I tell them either. It only takes me 10 min to go throw a water heater off my van. I don't work in the big city. It's a small town. With all of our work less than 15 miles away. It's hard for you to understand what our over head is. And that goes both ways. And that's why I don't say your a crook for charging what you do. It could take me 3 hrs to replace a water heater and 650 is still not that far off. Different location diffrent prices.


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## Gruvplumbing

Correction: I do listen when you have something to say biz.


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## dhal22

We usually run about $1100-$1250 on a 50 gal gas install but that's a full package. So we only do 5 heaters a month, but I don't give away picking up the heater or disposing it, nor do I give away stocking my van. 
A water heater install is more like 4 hrs or more when you look at the complete project. 

David


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## sparky

dhal22 said:


> We usually run about $1100-$1250 on a 50 gal gas install but that's a full package. So we only do 5 heaters a month, but I don't give away picking up the heater or disposing it, nor do I give away stocking my van.
> A water heater install is more like 4 hrs or more when you look at the complete project.
> 
> David


yes,you are correct,time it is drained down and all said and done 4-5hrs is the median average id say.:thumbsup:


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## dhal22

You either work in loading and unloading the heater, stocking the necessary materials, etc in the price or you do it for free. I say it cost $800ish to install a heater. Installing it for less than that is loosing money.

David


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## CTs2p2

I'm sure in and out in less than 1 hour includes waiting for said tank to satisfy and measuring the temperature (yes with a thermometer in case I'm speaking a foreign language to some) to verify that the tank isn't going to scald anyone and that it actually is shutting off with thermostats...


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## SchmitzPlumbing

4 to 5 hours to change a heater? the dog must be sore from you screwing the pooch for so long. with 2 guys, 2 hours would be a very long change out. i guess you work slower than us and only work for rich people. i am posting this because i am sure that most are afraid to start something. i am just stating the obvious about it in my area. 5 minutes max to load a heater. it takes longer for it to drain than to change. 15 minutes into draining, its moved aside and the new one is being installed. 2 3/4 females and 2 3/4 coups. 2' of copper. t&p piped to floor. while it is filling, haul out old one. 1 hour and done with only 1 guy, in a basement. back to the shop, off of cart and launched on the scrap trailer by the rest of them. i dont see how it takes you that long. so you mean to tell me that you can only schedule 2 change outs per day:blink: whats a sump pump replacement worth for you guys? $900?  give fido a break, his hole is bleeding:laughing:


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## Hoosier Plumber

Question for all involved. 

What is your average for billable hours per day per plumber? 

This could be in a different thread but it is applicable to this one. 

Industry average 4.5 a day. If you are truly doing a one hour install then you should be able to install 4 water heaters in a 8 hour day. 

At 200.00 a billable hour that is a respectable 800.00 minimum a day, not a bad haul depending on the cost of living.


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## Hoosier Plumber

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> 4 to 5 hours to change a heater? the dog must be sore from you screwing the pooch for so long. with 2 guys, 2 hours would be a very long change out. i guess you work slower than us and only work for rich people. i am posting this because i am sure that most are afraid to start something. i am just stating the obvious about it in my area. 5 minutes max to load a heater. it takes longer for it to drain than to change. 15 minutes into draining, its moved aside and the new one is being installed. 2 3/4 females and 2 3/4 coups. 2' of copper. t&p piped to floor. while it is filling, haul out old one. 1 hour and done with only 1 guy, in a basement. back to the shop, off of cart and launched on the scrap trailer by the rest of them. i dont see how it takes you that long. so you mean to tell me that you can only schedule 2 change outs per day:blink: whats a sump pump replacement worth for you guys? $900?  give fido a break, his hole is bleeding:laughing:



Do the magic water heater fairies deliver water heater while you sleep? They must restock your van and shop as well. :laughing:


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## Gruvplumbing

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> 4 to 5 hours to change a heater? the dog must be sore from you screwing the pooch for so long. with 2 guys, 2 hours would be a very long change out. i guess you work slower than us and only work for rich people. i am posting this because i am sure that most are afraid to start something. i am just stating the obvious about it in my area. 5 minutes max to load a heater. it takes longer for it to drain than to change. 15 minutes into draining, its moved aside and the new one is being installed. 2 3/4 females and 2 3/4 coups. 2' of copper. t&p piped to floor. while it is filling, haul out old one. 1 hour and done with only 1 guy, in a basement. back to the shop, off of cart and launched on the scrap trailer by the rest of them. i dont see how it takes you that long. so you mean to tell me that you can only schedule 2 change outs per day:blink: whats a sump pump replacement worth for you guys? $900?  give fido a break, his hole is bleeding:laughing:


Thank you Schmitz. Apparently no one knows how to do real work any more. Hahahaha. Good to see that there are still people out there actually working instead of f***ing off.


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## Gruvplumbing

Hoosier Plumber said:


> Do the magic water heater fairies deliver water heater while you sleep? They must restock your van and shop as well. :laughing:


Last time I checked my supply house delivers everything to my shop. Takes about 1 min to wheel that bad a** 50 gal beast in the door. And another 5 min to stock the van. And that's for all the service work I do all day.


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## Ptturner91

Gruvplumbing said:


> Last time I checked my supply house delivers everything to my shop. Takes about 1 min to wheel that bad a** 50 gal beast in the door. And another 5 min to stock the van. And that's for all the service work I do all day.


Is that all you do all day ? Hot water tanks?


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## Hoosier Plumber

Gruvplumbing said:


> Thank you Schmitz. Apparently no one knows how to do real work any more. Hahahaha. Good to see that there are still people out there actually working instead of f***ing off.


The guys under cutting us must be working much harder and getting a higher billable rate per hour and that is how they keep prices low. 

Think it's time for me to close up shop as I must be ripping people off. Always thought I was honest and fair. 



Gruvplumbing said:


> Last time I checked my supply house delivers everything to my shop. Takes about 1 min to wheel that bad a** 50 gal beast in the door. And another 5 min to stock the van. And that's for all the service work I do all day.


The point is there is more time involved in that job than that one hour install. Not getting paid for the other work involved is your prerogative. 

So what kind of compensation are you faster and better plumbers pulling down? 

It must be well over 100,000 a year as you have lower overhead and get work done twice as fast. Hell maybe 100,000 is low.


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## SchmitzPlumbing

Hoosier Plumber said:


> Do the magic water heater fairies deliver water heater while you sleep? They must restock your van and shop as well. :laughing:



i guess i have a new name for ferguson the water heater fairies. and yes sometimes they do deliver while i sleep. the average delivery time is 7:30 am. as for restocking, i keep more than 2 female adps and 2 coups in stock with me. :yes:


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## Gruvplumbing

Just wondering Hoosier... But do you bill for 2 hours to replace a flapper. I'm sure that takes a good hour to stock the van for that. And another half to order that dang flapper. And not to mention the hour and half to drive there and install it.


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## plumbdrum

While I agree that it should only take roughly an hour to change a tank, I agree with Hoosier with the overall time he is stating. One would have to consider the time and cost of securing a permit, and if required in your area, stand an inspection.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Hoosier Plumber

Gruvplumbing said:


> Just wondering Hoosier... But do you bill for 2 hours to replace a flapper. I'm sure that takes a good hour to stock the van for that. And another half to order that dang flapper. And not to mention the hour and half to drive there and install it.


First the comparison is apples to oranges. 

A flapper does not take but a few minutes to swap out. However I don't charge just for the few minutes to change the flapper as I would be shorting myself. 

The van didn't stock itself for free. 

The van wasn't driven to the job for free. 

There had to be a diagnostic. 

There will be some conversation with the customer about what is going on and what else might need to be done. 

The physical work has to be performed. 

The invoice isn't going to write itself. 

Processing payment will take a couple of minutes whether they are writing the check or not. 

The data collected isn't going to enter itself into quickbooks. 

The flapper isn't going to reorder or restock itself after use. 

This is just a part of what goes into one job. Do I bill 2 hours for a flapper change out, no, but I damn sure bill for a one hour minimum if it stays under and it's the right amount per hour to cover my costs and allow for profit. 

Go ahead and stay on your high horse. Give your work away telling yourself that your better than others because you work fast and cheap. Work you ass off for a meager retirement with a broken body. 

Win, lose or draw, I didn't go into this trying to save the world one plumbing problem at a time. I went into to business to be a millionaire plumber if I had the grit, determination and intelligence to make it happen. 

Will I be a millionaire plumber, highly unlikely, but if I price cheap then I can be certain I will never make it. 

The day I'm forced to install a water heater for 650.00 is the day I close my doors.


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## sierra2000

Gruvplumbing said:


> Or maybe the guys who have to charge 1100 to replace one don't spend there money wisely. Does nobody invest there money. Or how about your shop being payed for by others investments. As in if I hung up the plumbing business tomorrow I'll still be making money. Not sure why people put there eggs in one basket. Maybe try to invest your money and be alittle wiser with. I'm in this trade bc I love it not bc plumbers are millionaires.


 That's the biggest load of crap I've read so far. None of that factors in when it comes to determining your price. Anyone can boast anything anonymously over the internet. Why is your plumbing shop being paid for by other investments? Can it not support itself? Maybe if you charged correctly it wouldn't have to be supported by your supposed other investments. If your other "investments" have to support your plumbing business maybe it's time to get rid of that burden. I highly doubt if you had other lucrative investments that you'd be in the field turning wrenches still. I'm a one man shop and I'm at $1300 to $1500 for a basic gas replacement.


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## Phat Cat

Not sure if I missed it, but we also include warranty costs in our water heater pricing. Our pricing is based on one man showing up with the water heater and three hours labor. The labor includes travel to the job and returning to shop to dispose of water heater. IMO, to really provide the best service, you should allow 15 minutes to talk with your customer about their new water heater.

You should be going over the following:

Temperature settings - may have to be raised when winter comes, due to incoming water being so much cooler.

Maintenance - How often should water heater be flushed, if you are so inclined showing the customer what the procedure is. BETTER YET, schedule the first year flush at a discount.

Anode Rod - Explain the purpose, suggest checking it yearly or whatever schedule you deem appropriate.

Warranty - What's covered? What isn't? Do they call you or manufacturer?

Another thing that is harder to quantify is that we base our pricing not just on time and material, BUT also the complexity of the job, tools needed to complete the job etc.

Why should the labor rate be identical for back-breaking work vs. changing out a flapper? If you replace a water heater in an attic or basement, regardless of the length of time, your overall productivity for the rest of the day is different.

Profit is NOT a dirty word! It is necessary if you hope to be around to honor your warranties.

Question for those on the less expensive end - Are you happy with what you get for a water change out, or do you accept it because it is all you can get for a water heater change out?


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## Tommy plumber

Phat Cat said:


> Why should the labor rate be identical for back-breaking work vs. changing out a flapper? If you replace a water heater in an attic or basement, regardless of the length of time, your overall productivity for the rest of the day is different.













That is interesting. Your labor rate is different depending on the task?


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## Tommy plumber

Gruvplumbing said:


> Just wondering Hoosier... But do you bill for 2 hours to replace a flapper. I'm sure that takes a good hour to stock the van for that. And another half to order that dang flapper. And not to mention the hour and half to drive there and install it.












What is your fee to replace a 40-gal elec. W/H? 
I posted an ad from a plumbing company for $585 which is ridiculously low in my opinion.
Just for the record, we charge about $750 for a 40-gal elec. W/H in a garage. That is bare bones without any add-ons. If the heater is in a back bedroom, for example, then the charge is more to move it across the carpeted or tiled floors. A new 3/4" ball valve would be an easy add-on that brings the our total above $825.


----------



## mtfallsmikey

Interesting... was doing 50 gal. electric changeouts for around $500 15 yr. ago when I got out of the biz. Back then on occasion you would run into an old G.E., or Philco, 50 gal, galv. tank, with wraparound elements, full of calcium, dare any one man to drag one of those up out of a basement by themselves. I kept 1/2", 3/4" MIP/FIP's soldered on to stubs to make things go quicker, and used a Wayne Porta-Pump, could empty a 50 gal. heater in 20 min. or so.


----------



## plungerboy

Tommy plumber said:


> That is interesting. Your labor rate is different depending on the task?


Mine is. I don't charge the same rate when I bring other equipment to the job. When my jetter or excavator showed up its definitely different.


----------



## plbgbiz

Tommy plumber said:


> That is interesting. Your labor rate is different depending on the task?


Me too.


----------



## Letterrip

plungerboy said:


> Mine is. I don't charge the same rate when I bring other equipment to the job. When my jetter or excavator showed up its definitely different.


 But effectively, that is an equipment charge, not a different labor rate, right? I mean, it's semantics, but that difference is based only on the equipment you are using?


----------



## plbgbiz

Letterrip said:


> But effectively, that is an equipment charge, not a different labor rate, right? I mean, it's semantics, but that difference is based only on the equipment you are using?


 I take into account the expertise needed, difficulty, and financial risk of a particular project when I consider the rate to be charged.

This is why I do not install sewers with a by-the-foot price or give prices without seeing the job.


----------



## Titletownplumbr

plbgbiz said:


> *I take into account the expertise needed, difficulty, and financial risk of a particular project when I consider the rate to be charged.*
> 
> This is why I do not install sewers with a by-the-foot price or give prices without seeing the job.


There's alot of good plumbers out there but a good number of them are terrible businessmen.


----------



## Phat Cat

Tommy plumber said:


> That is interesting. Your labor rate is different depending on the task?


Absolutely! Attic work, crawlspace work, and filthy work are all charged at a higher labor rate. Like Mr.Biz stated above, many factors go into the job. IMO, not much different than lawyers (Sr. Lawyer, Jr. Attorney, Paralegal). If a job is especially complex, you better believe the compensation is more! If the guys are doing back breaking work, I give longer breaks in between jobs when I can, or if it is close to the end of the day, I push jobs to the next days. When dispatching, I try to keep in mind what their bodies have been through in any given day. 

Sometimes may even throw in a new uniform into the job cost. :yes:

I will never forget the PZ Member who said if he had to use his shop vac. to clean up crap, that customer just bought a new shop vac.  I won't go that far, but it sure did make me think a little differently.


----------



## Shoot'N'Plumber

sierra2000 said:


> That's the biggest load of crap I've read so far. None of that factors in when it comes to determining your price. Anyone can boast anything anonymously over the internet. Why is your plumbing shop being paid for by other investments? Can it not support itself? Maybe if you charged correctly it wouldn't have to be supported by your supposed other investments. If your other "investments" have to support your plumbing business maybe it's time to get rid of that burden. I highly doubt if you had other lucrative investments that you'd be in the field turning wrenches still. I'm a one man shop and I'm at $1300 to $1500 for a basic gas replacement.


^^^^Abso-Fu**'Nlutely Jay. So far all I've gathered from this thread is what started out as a simple "hey check these guys water heater install prices out, how do they do it", has turned into a who's .... (sorry phat cat) is ...... But the reality is all of us are spread so far accross the country but yet have no clue as to what it takes to run a business in our town/county/state. From what I've gathered if I charge Moore than $1000.00 I'm apparently screwing the poodles hole til it bleeds. Too the 1hr install guys, that's Effin awesome that you live in area where houses are no older than 30 years old, with nothing but perfect condition shiny copper pipe, where hard pipes gas supplies for the furnace are not directly in front of the HWT, or where you have strict handyman enforcement and the house isn't spaghetti'd together in a WTF fashion, and your basements stairs are all high quality wood with never a fear of breaking thru and popping your knee forcing you to be out for months with surgery. Kudos to you guys, I think I might open up a Shop in your town. 
But back to reality, here things are a little more expensive. My primary supply house happens too reside in a city with a 9.75% sales tax  "WORD" when I drive by a fuel station that has diesel for 4.20/gallon I'm like :thumbup: "WORD" if I hit rush hr. traffic and it takes me 1.5 hrs extra to get to that Water heater install who pays for that. 
Now for you guys who think we are sheisters for charging more than $1000, I say don't blame us for selling yourself short. If anybody is selling a water heater and only charging for 1-2 hrs then you are in the business of selling water heaters and not selling yourself as an awesome "service plumber who takes pride in providing quality work while only using top quality components with a warranty to back it up" then you are selling yourself short. That statement in parentheses is what I tell my customers about why I "charge soooo much" but ill just say that my acceptance rate of getting the install so far outweighs my lost ones that I'm beginning to think I'm still too cheap, but Im perfectly fine with my prices. I try and always stock a water heater or two, so when I show up I'm ready to get the install I'm not a big fan of driving all over town giving out free estimates, id rather show up give a price that says "hey, I'm hear to work", plus if someone calls at 10pm with family visiting from out of town and absolutely needs hot water, usually I'm the go to guy. Now that's the service I'm selling. RANT OFF! But hey why all this bickering when college football season is just a short 5 weeks away:thumbsup:


----------



## Tommy plumber

Phat Cat said:


> Absolutely! Attic work, crawlspace work, and filthy work are all charged at a higher labor rate. Like Mr.Biz stated above, many factors go into the job. IMO, not much different than lawyers (Sr. Lawyer, Jr. Attorney, Paralegal). If a job is especially complex, you better believe the compensation is more! If the guys are doing back breaking work, I give longer breaks in between jobs when I can, or if it is close to the end of the day, I push jobs to the next days. When dispatching, I try to keep in mind what their bodies have been through in any given day.
> 
> Sometimes may even throw in a new uniform into the job cost. :yes:
> 
> I will never forget the PZ Member who said if he had to use his shop vac. to clean up crap, that customer just bought a new shop vac.  I won't go that far, but it sure did make me think a little differently.











Do you charge time & materials? 
I have a flat rate book with all kinds of add-ons for attic work, ladders needed on the job, opening walls, drain-down time, etc.


----------



## Phat Cat

Tommy plumber said:


> Do you charge time & materials?
> I have a flat rate book with all kinds of add-ons for attic work, ladders needed on the job, opening walls, drain-down time, etc.


Basically flat rate. The labor differential is factored into the flat rate price.


----------



## Tommy plumber

Phat Cat said:


> Basically flat rate. The labor differential is factored into the flat rate price.









Thanks. Learn sumptin new every day.

I just assumed that all flat-rate books had their pricing structure for all tasks at the same labor rate.

I have heard of differnt hourly rates for different customers; ie: $125/hour for a commercial account, $150/hour for some slow-paying gov't. customers, etc.


----------



## Shoot'N'Plumber

Ii see what you did on my previous post TOMMY! Perhaps I was a bit over the top on that one my apologies. You did beat me to it though, LOL!


----------



## Tommy plumber

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> Ii see what you did on my previous post TOMMY! Perhaps I was a bit over the top on that one my apologies. You did beat me to it though, LOL!











I try to keep it clean for the ladies that view the posts.


----------



## Phat Cat

Tommy plumber said:


> Thanks. Learn sumptin new every day.
> 
> I just assumed that all flat-rate books had their pricing structure for all tasks at the same labor rate.
> 
> I have heard of differnt hourly rates for different customers; ie: $125/hour for a commercial account, $150/hour for some slow-paying gov't. customers, etc.


Our flat rate system utilizes the same labor rate, so I work around it.

I adjust the time on the task to bring labor up to where it needs to be.


----------



## younger-plumber

im going on my second year in business for myself and If I was only getting 650 per heater install I would never be able to afford to stay in business, much less make a PROFIT. I guess plumbers are afraid to actually make a little bit of money after uncle sam dips his sticky fingers into the mix. hows that 300 bucks sound after gas, insurance,taxes, maintenance on the van etc are factored in. OVERHEAD OVERHEAD OVERHEAD 
Plus if your only in the customers house for an hour, how much of a relationship did you build with the customer to make them like you or your company and want to call you back ?? I have some customers that call me back for the silliest things and I swear they just want to have me come by, talk about the grandkids, hand me a check and wish me luck with business.


----------



## Shoot'N'Plumber

younger-plumber said:


> im going on my second year in business for myself and If I was only getting 650 per heater install I would never be able to afford to stay in business, much less make a PROFIT. I guess plumbers are afraid to actually make a little bit of money after uncle sam dips his sticky fingers into the mix. hows that 300 bucks sound after gas, insurance,taxes, maintenance on the van etc are factored in. OVERHEAD OVERHEAD OVERHEAD
> Plus if your only in the customers house for an hour, how much of a relationship did you build with the customer to make them like you or your company and want to call you back ?? I have some customers that call me back for the silliest things and I swear they just want to have me come by, talk about the grandkids, hand me a check and wish me luck with business.


Haha! It's funny that you said that dude! Sometimes I feel the same way. Just last week I did a water heater install in a nice neighborhood in a nice expensive city about a 20 min easy drive (with my trailer) west of me. 
I installed a 50 gallon WH, old house all galvanized. The gate valve shut off handle was literally penetrated up through the enclosures sheet metal roof. Bit the 3/4" pipe was still under. I replaced the most rotted WH I've ever seen that it was literally being held in place by the supplies and plumbers tape. I installed a drip leg, new ball valve new straps, and ran all new vent 18" riser of double wall, two 45* then 4' up through roof flashing and above a parapet portion of roof to be code compliant. I got there late at about 3:30 but they needed hot water and I had the 50 gallon on me. Took me 4 hrs for this. They had hot water within 2.5 hrs but still needed to do all the other stuff. Upon getting payment for my work I will say between $1500-$1700 the customer heard me call my wife and tell her to plan on dinner without me, so she insisted that I eat dinner with them and jokingly threatened to put a stop payment on check if did not comply. So I enjoyed a fantastic sit down conversation dinner for 2 more hours. 
The wife is a musician in an actual professional orchestra and she insisted I leave 30 business cards so she can disperse among her orchestra.
Now I did not price the WH heater for their area, not for their cars they drive. I priced my install at my price that I need to be at. But again demographics play huge part, what is expensive for my town is probably on the cheaper side outside of my town. I hardly think if they felt they were getting screwed I would not have been forced to enjoy dinner and I would not have 3 more projects for this same customer next week. Oh by the way the WH install was my second call from the same customer as I snaked their backed up bathroom from a roof vent the week before at $225.00 so it appears my pricing may just be fine for that area.


----------



## SchmitzPlumbing

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> Haha! It's funny that you said that dude! Sometimes I feel the same way. Just last week I did a water heater install in a nice neighborhood in a nice expensive city about a 20 min easy drive (with my trailer) west of me.
> I installed a 50 gallon WH, old house all galvanized. The gate valve shut off handle was literally penetrated up through the enclosures sheet metal roof. Bit the 3/4" pipe was still under. I replaced the most rotted WH I've ever seen that it was literally being held in place by the supplies and plumbers tape. I installed a drip leg, new ball valve new straps, and ran all new vent 18" riser of double wall, two 45* then 4' up through roof flashing and above a parapet portion of roof to be code compliant. I got there late at about 3:30 but they needed hot water and I had the 50 gallon on me. Took me 4 hrs for this. They had hot water within 2.5 hrs but still needed to do all the other stuff. Upon getting payment for my work I will say between $1500-$1700 the customer heard me call my wife and tell her to plan on dinner without me, so she insisted that I eat dinner with them and jokingly threatened to put a stop payment on check if did not comply. So I enjoyed a fantastic sit down conversation dinner for 2 more hours.
> The wife is a musician in an actual professional orchestra and she insisted I leave 30 business cards so she can disperse among her orchestra.
> Now I did not price the WH heater for their area, not for their cars they drive. I priced my install at my price that I need to be at. But again demographics play huge part, what is expensive for my town is probably on the cheaper side outside of my town. I hardly think if they felt they were getting screwed I would not have been forced to enjoy dinner and I would not have 3 more projects for this same customer next week. Oh by the way the WH install was my second call from the same customer as I snaked their backed up bathroom from a roof vent the week before at $225.00 so it appears my pricing may just be fine for that area.



i agree with your water heater price, as i am a cheap hack, but $225 for the augering seems a bit cheap:yes:


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## Steveking

Have one client that I sort her mail and take her trash out about every six weeks service call.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> i agree with your water heater price, as i am a cheap hack, but $225 for the augering seems a bit cheap:yes:


Yea drain cleaning here is interesting. We are overloaded with $49 dollar drain companies and actual plumbers who use small undersized machines for loss leaders to push repairs. Now that I've been getting into commercial service work in the bigger cities people are like  when can you clean my drains. I didn't know it til after I did it, but this customer had previously used a huge local company that's been in business for 110 years, after I gave him his bill he showed me their invoice to clear a main line blockage from the shower drain and it was $485.00. So again demographics are really going to determine where I focus my service. When i price out a main like blockage to a customer in my town they flip their lid and I do not want separate prices for in town or out of town as I feel that may alienate out of town callers. Ive only been in business 8 months so as I grow and pick up more call volume ill be able to determine some price tweaks if needed. My rig is loaded up with all my machines to tackle almost any blockage.


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## younger-plumber

im getting anywhere from 279 ( for my maintenance companies who give me lots of revenue) to 329 to clear a main sewer. if I pull a toilet to access the line I charge 159.00 to pull and reset. normally I get around 300 to dig up and install a c/o. ( our sewer lines are normally 18" deep max) 
and I had lenzyme make me a sweet drain cleaner and I have custom labels made through the peeps that do my vinyl work on my van to put on them. sell those puppies for 49.00 bucks.


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## younger-plumber

by the way I got in contact with lenzymes thanks to some one on this forum.... redwood or biz?? im through my second case and it sells pretty decent when I remember to offer it! haa


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## Shoot'N'Plumber

younger-plumber said:


> by the way I got in contact with lenzymes thanks to some one on this forum.... redwood or biz?? im through my second case and it sells pretty decent when I remember to offer it! haa


Do you offer this on all drain calls or particular applications regarding pipe conditions?


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## younger-plumber

I offer it on EVERY call. drain or not. like I said when I remember to offer it.lol. anything I can leave behind with my logo or phone number on it Is a plus to me.


----------



## Cajunhiker

Phat Cat said:


> I will never forget the PZ Member who said if he had to use his shop vac. to clean up crap, that customer just bought a new shop vac.  I won't go that far, but it sure did make me think a little differently.


Umm, i thought this was sop. If I'm on a messy job I do not hesitate to buy a new shop vac, complete the job, charge the customer for the shop vac (with mark up of course) and give the shop vac to the customer (after reminding him/her to clean it or throw it out or do whatever they want with it).

Btw, those plumbers on commission are charging more than $650 for a WH swap out, you can believe that.


----------



## Tommy plumber

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> Yea drain cleaning here is interesting.* We **are overloaded with $49 dollar drain companies* and actual plumbers who use small undersized machines for loss leaders to push repairs. Now that I've been getting into commercial service work in the bigger cities people are like  when can you clean my drains. I didn't know it til after I did it, but this customer had previously used a huge local company that's been in business for 110 years, after I gave him his bill he showed me their invoice to clear a main line blockage from the shower drain and it was $485.00. So again demographics are really going to determine where I focus my service. When i price out a main like blockage to a customer in my town they flip their lid and I do not want separate prices for in town or out of town as I feel that may alienate out of town callers. Ive only been in business 8 months so as I grow and pick up more call volume ill be able to determine some price tweaks if needed. My rig is loaded up with all my machines to tackle almost any blockage.












*Like these guys:*


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## Shoot'N'Plumber

Tommy plumber said:


> *Like these guys:*


Dang! Those guys are even $3 cheaper :laughing:


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## SunnyDaRench

My line would be 
" All Drains cleared for just $0.95!!!!!!!
Fine print- trip charge $45.00 on all service
I'm waiting to see this somewhere


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## VanCityPlumber

We install water heaters for $650.00

Several companies install for $1200.00

We undercut them and make money. 

That price includes the 40 gallon gas tank. 

It does not include the Permit Decal

No customer should have to pay more than he should for a tank. 

There are several companies installing tanks for $575.00 - $600.00 for 40 gallon gas.


----------



## VanCityPlumber

You purchase them for $400.00

Best to keep working then try to get a big payday. 

The industry is changing

The new guys on the block give the customers value. 

I am a fully certified journeyman, insured, gas contractor as well as a fitter. 

More volume at a discount is better than less work at a steep rate.


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## dclarke

I don't know where your logic comes from but if I were told I could make double the price for the same job I'd be fine doing half the calls to make the same amount of money. Work smarter not harder.


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## VanCityPlumber

Making $1200.00 on a tank is taking money from the customers pocket. 

I provide a fair price to my customers.


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## dclarke

And everyone has a different idea of fair price.


----------



## wyrickmech

VanCityPlumber said:


> You purchase them for $400.00 Best to keep working then try to get a big payday. The industry is changing The new guys on the block give the customers value. I am a fully certified journeyman, insured, gas contractor as well as a fitter. More volume at a discount is better than less work at a steep rate.


 I have heard this a thousand times normally from the ones that go out of business in the first year.


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## VanCityPlumber

My company has been in business for several years. 

I am fully qualified and am not here to take advantage of the customers.


----------



## wyrickmech

VanCityPlumber said:


> My company has been in business for several years. I am fully qualified and am not here to take advantage of the customers.


its not about taking advantage of the costumer it about making enough money to stay in business. You have truck upkeep insurance for the truck and liability. Workers comp and insurance for fire-protection work. Add in office supplies and a secretary that eats into your 250 hard you might walk away with enough change in your pocket to by a soda but that's it.


----------



## VanCityPlumber

I do agree with that. 

I have seen the degradation of the trade. There are journeymen installing tanks for $100.00

Point taken


----------



## Shoot'N'Plumber

So lets finally put this conversation into perspective. So ill start. Lets say I wanted to charge $650.00 for a 40 gal natural gas water heater. So BAMM! right off the bat with heater, flex lines, 3/4" shut off, new gas flex & shut off, parts for a drip leg and straps. Right there I'm already at $512.00 actual cost (no markup). Now lets say this install is first stop of the day and is 22 miles from the shop. I get 11-12 MPG at $4.30 per gallon (actual price). So I've got 44 miles I need to a count for at $17.00 actual cost. So now I'm at $529.00. Now I've got a 20-25 min dr. Barring any major delays, so I've got to account for 50 mins of drive time. Now my typical install is 2.5-3 hrs. I'm a OMS and I'm not risking injuring myself by manhandling it out of there full. My time allows for a quality and safe install, where I can maybe shoot the breeze with the customer while building a relationship and not just being a robot with no personality (I cannot stress the importance of taking a few moments and actually listen to a customers conversation) and lets me usually clean the area better than when I got there. 
So $650 minus $529.00= $121.00 for what accounts for 4 hours of my day and does not account for maintenance on my rig. Oh! And I didn't even add the time it took to purchase the heater. So at this price I have an awesome $30/ hr to divide paying myself, company profit and overhead. So at this rate I would be in business for 2 weeks. But instead I stock these water heaters, and always have one or two on my rig, I show up fully stocked and ready to knock out whatever the job throws at me right down to needing to replace the entire venting if need be, you see less time drivin round for parts usually equals more customer contact time and shows them you mean business. But at the end of the day, I'm not selling a water heater. I'm selling quality and awesome service with a great warranty, and workmanship to back it up, and when the bill time comes people are actually shocked that I "only" charged what I charged, and I'm substantially more than $650.00, but again, I'm in business to make money and grow my business. This is why one standard price doesn't work for all regions and market dictates price.


----------



## sierra2000

VanCityPlumber said:


> Making $1200.00 on a tank is taking money from the customers pocket. I provide a fair price to my customers.


How about providing a fair hourly wage to your plumbers. You pay $400 for the tank. There's $200 left. Business profit? Taxes? Damn. Your techs can't be making enough. Things are changing? You're running this trade into the gutter by not properly pricing and are too stupid to realize it.


----------



## sierra2000

VanCityPlumber said:


> I do agree with that. I have seen the degradation of the trade. There are journeymen installing tanks for $100.00 Point taken


At the end of the day you're not even making $100 and you don't realize it.


----------



## sierra2000

I have to stop reading these low baller threads. It just pisses me off too much.


----------



## Shoot'N'Plumber

sierra2000 said:


> How about providing a fair hourly wage to your plumbers. You pay $400 for the tank. There's $200 left. Business profit? Taxes? Damn. Your techs can't be making enough. Things are changing? You're running this trade into the gutter by not properly pricing and are too stupid to realize it.


Oh Jeez! I can't even believe I forgot to account for taxes in my example. Dang I'm a bad businessman.


----------



## Shoot'N'Plumber

sierra2000 said:


> i have to stop reading these low baller threads. It just pisses me off too much.


word!


----------



## sierra2000

VanCityPlumber said:


> My company has been in business for several years. I am fully qualified and am not here to take advantage of the customers.


Hanging on by a thread?


----------



## sierra2000

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> word!


How do people not see the simple math and common sense in pricing?


----------



## Shoot'N'Plumber

sierra2000 said:


> How do people not see the simple math and common sense in pricing?


It's mind boggling, truly mind boggling. I mean I keep hearing this "I can get a tank for $400.00 but like I stated is no one including flex's and the Nickel n dime stuff. It's like my old bosses when bidding larger commercial projects would just throw a generic $500.00 for strut, hangers n insulation. It wasn't until I broke down those parts while doing a skating rink project that we got and showed them they failed to account for actually $2,300.00 l. After that they sang a different tune. But it's the little thing that can be overlooked but add up to be a big thing.


----------



## VanCityPlumber

I don't mean to offend anyone here. 

I am also not trying to drive this trade into the ground. The way it's going now the entire trade is being drove into the ground.

I just want to make a few bucks from it. 

$650.00 can be a reasonable amount for a tank.

There is a contractor in my area advertising a $585.00 Gas HWT installation. 

He is able to do so because he pays minimum wage to his plumbing Techs

They are more than happy to have the work. 

In the perfect world we could charge $750.00 to install a tank

Fact is, times are changing. The trade is changing, I'm here to see the change and be part if it. 

I pay insurance. 
Pay for a van and stock it
Journeyman and Gas Contractor
Gas fitter 

I am also a license HVACR


----------



## VanCityPlumber

I'm open to others and there thoughts on this.


----------



## iamacat

What company are you so I know not to apply when I'm looking to finish my ticket in the next few years.


----------



## mtfallsmikey

And it's no wonder the trades are going to he!! in a handbasket. Good article in the new PHC News about labor rates, true numbers on amount of billeble hours/yr., etc. You cannot run a service buisiness like a blue light special from K Mart.... and where are they now? Want a job, go to work for the other man, want to build wealth, run a business like a business.


----------



## dhal22

VanCityPlumber said:


> You purchase them for $400.00
> 
> Best to keep working then try to get a big payday.
> 
> The industry is changing
> 
> The new guys on the block give the customers value.
> 
> I am a fully certified journeyman, insured, gas contractor as well as a fitter.
> 
> More volume at a discount is better than less work at a steep rate.



So you install a water heater and make $25 profit, so $100 a day if you install 4 heaters? Actually I doubt you're clearing $25. I install a heater, make $300 profit and am home before lunch. 

What a deal for the homeowner though, you voluntarily leave your profit in their wallet. You call it giving the customer value, I call it stupid, doing a job at below cost.

Why not list your expenses here and let us all analyze your costs of installing a water heater? Perhaps I'm wrong.

David


----------



## Gruvplumbing

Just wondering. But what do you guys do if Johnny home owner goes and picks up his fancy whirlpool water heater from wherever? Do you just tell them you don't install them or you install them like the crap they are? Of course no one in there right mind will stand behind something they didn't supply. But do you just do it as time and material then?


----------



## Hoosier Plumber

Gruvplumbing said:


> Just wondering. But what do you guys do if Johnny home owner goes and picks up his fancy whirlpool water heater from wherever? Do you just tell them you don't install them or you install them like the crap they are? Of course no one in there right mind will stand behind something they didn't supply. But do you just do it as time and material then?



No there is an installation fee for a homeowner provided heater, no warranty on the heater. 

Min install is 275.00 if heater is sitting next to other one and is properly sized.


----------



## plbgbiz

sierra2000 said:


> I have to stop reading these low baller threads. It just pisses me off too much.


Don't quit now. It just got interesting. :laughing:


----------



## plbgbiz

VanCityPlumber said:


> I'm open to others and there thoughts on this.


VCP,

Here's my thought. You should be making more money. If we can agree on that single point, maybe some information shared by several members in this thread can help you get there. I am wondering if you have a full understanding of what it is costing you to get a truck into Mrs. Jones driveway. 

How many trucks do you have on the road?
How many employees do you have?
Do you have any underpaid or nonpaid family members helping you?
Are you paying any employees as subcontract labor?
How many billable hours do you average per day?
What is your COGS percentage of revenue?
What is your overhead percentage of revenue?
What is your profit percentage after your own paycheck?


----------



## plbgbiz

If you would rather not discuss such specifics publicly, feel free to send me a PM.


----------



## sierra2000

VanCityPlumber said:


> I don't mean to offend anyone here. I am also not trying to drive this trade into the ground. The way it's going now the entire trade is being drove into the ground. I just want to make a few bucks from it. $650.00 can be a reasonable amount for a tank. There is a contractor in my area advertising a $585.00 Gas HWT installation. He is able to do so because he pays minimum wage to his plumbing Techs They are more than happy to have the work. In the perfect world we could charge $750.00 to install a tank Fact is, times are changing. The trade is changing, I'm here to see the change and be part if it. I pay insurance. Pay for a van and stock it Journeyman and Gas Contractor Gas fitter I am also a license HVACR


But you refuse to take the steering wheel and drive your company in a different direction. Do you really think you won't have any work if you raise your rates? How many techs do you have? If you can afford this, take your best guy or loyal guy and send him out with higher rates for a month or better yet you do it since it's your company and prove to yourself that you can get more. At the end of the day you don't really affect me because no way you're charging that in my area and are still around. You're just a step above what an unlicensed handyman charges. I don't mean to come off so offensive but you're admitting that you undercut everyone and are proud of it for making no money and you don't realize it. At the end of the year you have to be asking yourself if this is really worth it. You must blow through employees so quickly. Are you using illegals? No plumber should make minimum wage with no kind of commission incentive. 

Open your eyes man. I guarantee there are other plumbers in your area charging double and triple that and the customers are happy to pay it. Stop trying to watch out for the customers wallet and worry about your own. When you finally go out of business or find yourself at the retirement years with not enough there, will your customers look out for you? HELL NO! I'm not saying rip them off but you seriously need to and can raise your rates and start looking out for yourself and your employees well being, the customers can handle themselves. 

Post your overhead on here from last year like someone else suggested, that should be really quick and easy to do, you're anonymous, no one knows who you are.


----------



## VanCityPlumber

Fair enough. 

I need to look at my finances. 

It sounds like I'm charging to little. 

Thanks for the heads up guys


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## sierra2000

Here is an example of overhead for a two man shop with the owner in one of the trucks.
This model is dated and you may not need everything on here but it gives you an idea and any legit company, even a one man shop should be close to or aim for these numbers if they want to have something to sell or pass on when they're done.

If you're running just service you will generate about 1000 work hours per year per plumber if you pay vacation and holidays.
This shows that they're doing $499,000 a year in sales. To figure what hourly rate you need to charge to generate that I simply divide $499,000 by 2000 work hours. 499,000 / 2000 = 249.50 

$500,000 in sales for two guys the hourly rate needs to be $250.
If your a one man shop like me, cut that overhead or sales goal in half, $250,000 in sales per year is the goal. 
250,000 / 1000 work hours = $250 an hour.

$400 to buy the water heater, minimum two hours to install, $900. And that's bare minimum without any markup or maybe accounting for a longer install time or extra parts.

Ok forget your real overhead for a minute or say you're just starting out and don't know what your overhead will or should be. How much do you want to do in sales for the year? What will make you happy? $100K, $200K, $300K a year?

100,000 divided by 1000 work hours means you need to charge $100 an hour.
200,000 / 1000 = $200 an hour.
300,000 / 1000 = $300 an hour.

I think every one man shop should shoot for $250,000 in sales a year. $250 an hour.
Now that may or may not include a 20% profit. 
Simply divide $100 by .80 = $125 an hour.
$200 divided by .80 = $250 an hour.
$300 divided by .80 = $375 an hour.
It's all pretty simple math.


----------



## plbgbiz

Good info Jay. :thumbup:

Another wake-up call for many OMS startups is this:

Many start with the ideal that anything over $100hr is somehow unfair, wrong, or outright robbery. Let's say as a OMS you aspire to have a gross personal income of $90k for the year. Given the responsibility and hours worked burdens, this seems very reasonable, if not too modest.

$90 per billable hour * 1,000 billable hours = $90,000.

Great. If you collect $90k in revenue by billing $90hr, then you can only add another $9hr in overhead expenses without going over the precious $100hr rate.

I have walked through the billable hour rate process with countless OMS startups and I have yet to get numbers very far under the $200hr range. And then only if they hedged on overhead costs, worked insane hours, used family slave labor, or refused to take a decent wage for themselves.

Funny thing about math, it always adds up. :yes:


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## plbgbiz

VCP,

Read over the attachment to this post:
http://www.plumbingzone.com/f4/bizbrew-more-than-owning-job-17477/


----------



## wyrickmech

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> Oh Jeez! I can't even believe I forgot to account for taxes in my example. Dang I'm a bad businessman.


 let's face it there will always be low balers. If they want to loose money let them go for it. I can sit at home and loose nothing but low ball a water heater just to loose money or work for nothing I will not do!


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## Ptturner91

Are you guys telling me, on your service calls you bill 250 an hour? 150 an hour?


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## younger-plumber

150-180 an hour . Drain cleaning is more.


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## VanCityPlumber

I appreciate the article guys. 

I would think one has to hide the 135.00 per hour within a truck charge or some sort. 

Please let me know if this is so.


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## Keefer w

Northern va, 50 gallon, atmospheric vent, with pan, and expansion tank; $1675.00. And we're are middle ofthe road in pricing in this area.


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## Ptturner91

Your telling me if you get called to fix a faucet your going to charge 150 an hour


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## Keefer w

Replace moen 1225 in a kit faucet-$157.00, delta seats and springs-$136.00


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## Hoosier Plumber

Ptturner91 said:


> Your telling me if you get called to fix a faucet your going to charge 150 an hour


If you've done the math and that's what you determine is needed then yes. 

After much math and refinement we are nearing that. The more we realize how much better out services are the more convinced we become that we are worth that. 

Are you not worth making a 100,000 a year as a business owner?


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## Ptturner91

Hoosier Plumber said:


> If you've done the math and that's what you determine is needed then yes. After much math and refinement we are nearing that. The more we realize how much better out services are the more convinced we become that we are worth that. Are you not worth making a 100,000 a year as a business owner?


I'm not saying that, just 150 an hour sounds a little rich, how do you justify that? In my area 100 is a lot an hour 
I'm just wondering how you justify your hourly rate when it's almost more then the faucet


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## Hoosier Plumber

Ptturner91 said:


> I'm not saying that, just 150 an hour sounds a little rich, how do you justify that? In my area 100 is a lot an hour
> I'm just wondering how you justify your hourly rate when it's almost more then the faucet


How do I justify? Math. :laughing: That damn math seems to add up to needing higher per hour rates to make what is needed to provide for expenses and profit. I sure as heck didn't go into this to give myself away. 

My biggest regret in business has been not knowing my numbers, starting off too low, and not believing I'm worth it. That has changed in the last couple of years and as of now I'm the closest I've ever been to realizing my goals. Is there still work to be done, heck yeah, but I feel I'm on the right path and the bank account agrees. 

Instead of how do you justify the better question might be how do I get that? 

Flat rate is about the only way you can get what is needed without getting into the hourly game of cat and mouse. Aptora has a nice little video on the basics of flat rate. 

I will rephrase my earlier question. What are you worth? 

A good plumber makes what, let's say $20.00 an hour. So with overtime and benefits he gets in the 50,000 - 60,000 range in your small areas where rates are low. 

If you are more than a plumber in your business shouldn't you earn better than a regular plumber who carries none of the stress, none of the liability, and works no more than 50 hours a week? :yes:

How do you get there? That is the better question. Know your worth and map out a plan to get there. Stop working for a wage and start working for the better life you wanted when you opened your own business.


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## Ptturner91

I understand what your saying 
But do you actually charge 150 an hour or do you charge another number and make the money on mark ups and truck charge?


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## sierra2000

$306 one man shop, actual charge per hour.


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## Ptturner91

sierra2000 said:


> $306 one man shop, actual charge per hour.


And you tell your customers that? 

So if you have a leaking pipe, after shut down and draining let's say 3 hours (small apartment building) your telling me you'll hand a bill for over 900?


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## sierra2000

I only did one job today. 

Two owner supplied toilet seats 
New kitchen faucet 
New disposer 
New drains under kitchen sink 
Unclog bathtub 
Replaced drains under bathroom sink 
Installed two owner supplied bathroom sink faucets 
$2,802 flat rate. No question about how much I charge per hour ever came up.


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## sierra2000

Ptturner91 said:


> And you tell your customers that? So if you have a leaking pipe, after shut down and draining let's say 3 hours (small apartment building) your telling me you'll hand a bill for over 900?


If I'm there for three hours. Yes.


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## Ptturner91

Do you live in a rich area?


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## plbgbiz

Ptturner91 said:


> I'm not saying that, just 150 an hour sounds a little rich, how do you justify that? In my area 100 is a lot an hour
> I'm just wondering how you justify your hourly rate when it's almost more then the faucet


First of all, the value in your rate has nothing to do with the cost of a manufactured widget. Why would you think that matters? 

If you speak and think in terms of time, $50hr certainly does sound like a lot. I mean really, who among your regular customers makes $50hr? But when you say you are charging them $50hr, that is exactly what they think you make. After all you are calling it labor, right? And therein lies the root of the evil we call T&M.

On the other hand, if you speak and think in terms of finished results, your value legitimately skyrockets. For instance, I have no problem at all telling a customer that we will install their new single lever faucet for $240. This is a guaranteed price no matter how long it takes. Complete with new emergency shutoff valves, stainless steel supply lines, and a 1yr material and workmanship warranty.

$225hr? NO WAY! $240 for a professionally completed job? You bet!

And no, I am not in a rich area. In the middle of Oklahoma working for middle income folks that work hard for their money and expect results with value.


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## sierra2000

Flat rate is the only way to get that. I don't charge much on my material markup. I carry more overhead than the average one man shop and I charge for it. My area and customers are rich, poor and average income. If I need to lower my rates I'd need to sell off some of my equipment and find other things to cut from my overhead.


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## Ptturner91

I get the flat rate rate, but even I hear 200 an hour and crap my pants 
If my mechanic charged that I would have a bike lol


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## Hoosier Plumber

Ptturner91 said:


> I understand what your saying
> But do you actually charge 150 an hour or do you charge another number and make the money on mark ups and truck charge?


So long as the math adds up to what you need it does not matter how you get there. 

150. Per hour no mark on material. 

100.00 an hour with 50% mark up. 

80.00 an hour 20.00 service call and mark up. 

Or flat rate. 

Until you are convinced your are worth it we are wasting time. 

I've learned that by doing a few small things we offer a better service experience than most of the competition. When you get into calling the larger companies who seem to offer better service the price jumps so much it's no longer a apples to apples. 

Can the customer find a cheaper service, yes, but good luck, and you get what you pay for. 

Even after adjusting prices yet again the offers are rolling in for work.


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## plbgbiz

This is a post I made in the Business Lounge about four years ago. I updated the numbers a little but the principles have not changed from the beginning of time. The thread title was:

"$314 Service Call...Flat Rate's Dirty Little Secret"

Prompted by ever present brags of high priced repairs and the subsequent "are you kidding me" responses, I thought I would point out the elephant in the room that many FR'ers don't talk about...."openly". It ain't rocket science.

Although some companies that have overhead that dictates $250 per billable hour may actually charge that much for their most basic of services, there is another way to get those numbers. "Loss Leaders"

Let's say you are a small start up and early estimates are that your going to have to bill in the $185 per hour range or higher to meet your desired income level. That doesn't mean Mrs. Jones has to pay $200 to get a flapper. It just means at the end of the month, you need to have averaged $185 per billable hour.

So maybe a particular small service "feels" better to you and your client at $50 or $75. No big deal. But when you get that risky sewer line that is 14' deep, maybe you shouldn't feel so bad charging $250 per hour or maybe a lot more. In the end, if the overall cash flow meets the goal then you did it the right way.

And therein lies the real power of upfront, flat rate, pre-price, bid only, or what ever you want to call it. It gives the business the power to overcome no win situations (price wise) and still generate the income needed to stay in business. It is not dishonest, immoral, unethical, or illegal. It is getting more from the investment of blood, sweat, and tears than just having the right to pay more taxes.

Before you shoot me down too quick, stop and count the times you personally have allowed the loss leaders in the retail world drag you around by the nose.


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## Hoosier Plumber

Ptturner91 said:


> I get the flat rate rate, but even I hear 200 an hour and crap my pants
> If my mechanic charged that I would have a bike lol


What does your mechanics charge per hour? Does he come to your house or shop with a van stock full of parts and tools. 

When was the last time a customer brought their plumbing to your shop? 

If you charge the same are your mechanic then you are really screwing yourself. 

A local small engine repair shop has a sign saying they charge $60.00 They don't pick up and they sure as hell don't deliver. Plus they like to make you wait because they order parts.


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## plbgbiz

Ptturner91 said:


> I get the flat rate rate, but even I hear 200 an hour and crap my pants
> If my mechanic charged that I would have a bike lol


How much would your mechanic charge if he had to bring his garage to everyone else's driveway. And then had to pay for insurance to protect everyone else's driveway. And then had to spend years of apprenticeship training?

I bet it would be a bit more than he charges to sit in one spot waiting for you to drive by.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber

Ptturner91 said:


> I'm not saying that, just 150 an hour sounds a little rich, how do you justify that? In my area 100 is a lot an hour
> I'm just wondering how you justify your hourly rate when it's almost more then the faucet


Simple! Don't install $100 faucets. I prefer higher end faucets with a bit more padding under list. Don't even ask what I installed this one for you'd flip your lid. But hey the customer was absolutely impressed with the service and she could not stop hugging me for such a beautiful piece of functional art. In fact she has texted me multiple times over the last month about how fantastic it is. But what I love even more is I wound up installing 3 other high end kitchen faucets for her friends. Nothing but hugs. the only down side is the husband ran into me at the supermarket and jokingly commented on how the wife now threatens to beat his head into the faucet when he misbehaves (this was my selling point to the wife in regards to the durability and quality). Target customer man! Target customer:yes:


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## sierra2000

Hoosier Plumber said:


> What does your mechanics charge per hour? Does he come to your house or shop with a van stock full of parts and tools. When was the last time a customer brought their plumbing to your shop? If you charge the same are your mechanic then you are really screwing yourself. A local small engine repair shop has a sign saying they charge $60.00 They don't pick up and they sure as hell don't deliver. Plus they like to make you wait because they order parts.


Right. And if we were able to do one job a day and you knew you'd be there 8 hours each day through out the year as in new construction, you'd have more billable hours (2000) or so for the year and you could charge $125 an hour and make the same as the guy doing service at $250. 

This is why the service industry pricing is so screwed up. The new construction guys come over to the service side and don't realize that they shouldn't be charging the same as they did in new construction and that's where all the undercutting comes from.


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## Hoosier Plumber

plbgbiz said:


> How much would your mechanic charge if he had to bring his garage to everyone else's driveway. And then had to pay for insurance to protect everyone else's driveway. And then had to spend years of apprenticeship training?
> 
> I bet it would be a bit more than he charges to sit in one spot waiting for you to drive by.


One day I will figure out how to get the plumbing brought to our shop.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber

Ptturner91 said:


> I get the flat rate rate, but even I hear 200 an hour and crap my pants
> If my mechanic charged that I would have a bike lol


Funny thing about that Pt. I have two absolute best friends. Ones a horsesho'er and the other owns the local mechanic shop. We had a this very same discussion a few months ago in regards to his addition and new water heater tank relocation. I gave him a best friend price and he absolutely refused to give me the job if I didn't charge him accordingly to my business plan. He told me how he's got it so easy as when customers have a problem they bring their problem to him. For him a quick look over is literally 5 mins. For me a quick look over can be an hr of my day plus fuel. There it is.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber

Hoosier Plumber said:


> One day I will figure out how to get the plumbing brought to our shop.


I've been thinking of running an advertisement that says drain cleaning $50.00 Any size line, just bring us your backed up pipe during normal business hours and well clear it.


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## sierra2000

When you go to McDonald and spend $10, say it takes an average of 5 minutes to move a customer through that line. How much are they making in one hour? 

That's $2.00 per minute per customer. If they move 12 customers through that line in an hour at only $10 per customer, they just made $120 an hour.
If they told you it's going to cost you $2.00 per minute for them to prepare your order, wouldn't you start to question it? It's all flat rate.

Now, don't they move way more customers than that in an hour and the average customer spends more than $10. 
How much are they really getting per hour.
They have the luxury to be able to spread their overhead over almost unlimited customers per day. We don't. We can realistically see 4 to 5 a day doing service.

A national fast food franchise is the way to go if you really want to make some money. When have you seen a McDonald go out of business.


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## Ptturner91

Well as a guy who isn't out on his own I guess I have time to learn but I just picture what I'd think if someone said 250 an hour haha


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## sierra2000

I wouldn't hire anyone either other than a lawyer if they said $250 an hour.


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## Ptturner91

My point laughing


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## Hoosier Plumber

Ptturner91 said:


> Well as a guy who isn't out on his own I guess I have time to learn but I just picture what I'd think if someone said 250 an hour haha


You pay that more often than you think. As stated earlier if you did the math you'd be taken aback by what other charge. 

Once had a conversation with a local chiropractor who asked about rates. He sits on a board who authorized plumbing work. He took it upon himself to track the guys hours and determined he was charging $80.00 an hour. He didn't think that was fair. 

Of course this comes from the same guy who is charging somewhere around 240.00 an hour.


----------



## younger-plumber

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> Simple! Don't install $100 faucets. I prefer higher end faucets with a bit more padding under list. Don't even ask what I installed this one for you'd flip your lid. But hey the customer was absolutely impressed with the service and she could not stop hugging me for such a beautiful piece of functional art. In fact she has texted me multiple times over the last month about how fantastic it is. But what I love even more is I wound up installing 3 other high end kitchen faucets for her friends. Nothing but hugs. the only down side is the husband ran into me at the supermarket and jokingly commented on how the wife now threatens to beat his head into the faucet when he misbehaves (this was my selling point to the wife in regards to the durability and quality). Target customer man! Target customer:yes:


 did this "high end " faucet come from lowes cuz I swear I saw it there the other day?? haha


----------



## younger-plumber

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> Simple! Don't install $100 faucets. I prefer higher end faucets with a bit more padding under list. Don't even ask what I installed this one for you'd flip your lid. But hey the customer was absolutely impressed with the service and she could not stop hugging me for such a beautiful piece of functional art. In fact she has texted me multiple times over the last month about how fantastic it is. But what I love even more is I wound up installing 3 other high end kitchen faucets for her friends. Nothing but hugs. the only down side is the husband ran into me at the supermarket and jokingly commented on how the wife now threatens to beat his head into the faucet when he misbehaves (this was my selling point to the wife in regards to the durability and quality). Target customer man! Target customer:yes:


 http://www.lowes.com/pd_130202-5236...pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=giagni+kitchen&facetInfo= close but no cookie! haha


----------



## plbgbiz

Ptturner91 said:


> Well as a guy who isn't out on his own I guess I have time to learn but I just picture what I'd think if someone said 250 an hour haha





sierra2000 said:


> I wouldn't hire anyone either other than a lawyer if they said $250 an hour.


Your mindset, your preconceived notions, your values, your priorities, and most of all...your fear.

These are what you must get past to be successful as a Plumbing business Operator. Your thoughts on pricing are the same as a business buying TV ads based on the shows you like rather than the shows your customers watch.


----------



## Shoot'N'Plumber

Ptturner91 said:


> Well as a guy who isn't out on his own I guess I have time to learn but I just picture what I'd think if someone said 250 an hour haha


Believe me Pt! When I worked for my last shop I had the same exact thoughts. I figured if I was making x$/hr that I could double or and swim in the dough and be super busy. But fortunately I still stayed at my last shop for quite a few more years and I saw first hand the fly by night cheap plumbers come and go. I'm so glad I stars a bit longer and learned more.


----------



## Shoot'N'Plumber

younger-plumber said:


> http://www.lowes.com/pd_130202-5236...pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=giagni+kitchen&facetInfo= close but no cookie! haha


In looks only my friend! I kid you not when I say my faucet weighed easily 12-15 lbs. that one prolly weighs 15oz. Plus my cost on that faucet was $478.00. Definitely not from lowes


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## sierra2000

Ptturner91 said:


> My point laughing


 My point is don't tell them you charge $250.


----------



## BC73RS

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> In looks only my friend! I kid you not when I say my faucet weighed easily 12-15 lbs. that one prolly weighs 15oz. Plus my cost on that faucet was $478.00. Definitely not from lowes


The last kitchen faucet that I installed that weighed that much was a Chicago.
No comments on the rates , just lurken'


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## VanCityPlumber

I have learned much from these posts. 

How does the following charge look

$79.80 Per Hour
$25.00 truck Charge
50 - 60 Percent Mark up on material

Is that to low. Or is that to high?


----------



## victoryplbaz

This reminds me of the local guy I was talking to in supply house. He said he was going to be a millionaire in a year. I asked how he planned to do this. He says well...you know all these guys going flat rate..I said yes..I just went it. He said well I'm going to take all you guys customers. I said well tell me I'm interested. He says with a straight face...il charge 35.00 a hr and you all will lose customers fast. I kinda laughed it off.. Guess who calls me to cover his call because his truck broke down and he can't fix it. 

So charge less all you want. But your not being honest with yourself about the true cost of running your business. And if you say you can at 35.00 .... Your a idiot!


----------



## sierra2000

VanCityPlumber said:


> I have learned much from these posts. How does the following charge look $79.80 Per Hour $25.00 truck Charge 50 - 60 Percent Mark up on material Is that to low. Or is that to high?


 Sounds like you're teetering around $100 an hour. Only way to correctly do it is add up your overhead and see what that puts you at. Sounds like you're t&m so it will be hard for you to justify telling a customer you're over $105 or so an hour.
For new construction you may be ok but service not so much.


----------



## VanCityPlumber

How much higher should I be. 

I know it depends on overhead and all that. But what would you recommend. 

Regardless of my overhead costs what would a better hourly cost be?


----------



## VanCityPlumber

Or is it best to quote a flat rate and charge more there


----------



## Hoosier Plumber

VanCityPlumber said:


> How much higher should I be.
> 
> I know it depends on overhead and all that. But what would you recommend.
> 
> Regardless of my overhead costs what would a better hourly cost be?





VanCityPlumber said:


> Or is it best to quote a flat rate and charge more there


Do not change a thing until you know your cost. 

Go to http://www.barebonesbiz.com/catalog/how-much-should-i-charge/. Download or buy a What should I charge. 

Read this short book on how to figure up what to charge. Then find the page where she covers mist business expense, plug in you own numbers. 

Be fair and realistic. Plan for where you want to be otherwise you'll never afford getting there. Don't short change expenses. EVERYTHING HAS TO BE COUNTED, otherwise you rate is not going to be enough. 

When you are done calculating up for a divide by hours a year you can bill. Approx 1040 per one guy. Don't be overly generous on hours either we all know your not getting 7 billable a day with anyone working a 8 hour day. 

There is your billable rate. 

I'd contend that any one man shop with the most minimal overhead would be 110.00 an hour minimum if he is willing to keep his pay low. 

Let's say he wants 80,000 a year. 

80,000/1040 = 76.00 an hour just to cover a meager compensation. I say meager because in that is wage, insurance, retirement, etc.... 

76.00 an hour with 0 other expenses covered.


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## plbgbiz

This is possibly the most valuable $60 book on all of the the interwebz. :yes:

http://www.shubee.com/frank-blau-s-the-business-of-contracting-workbook.html


----------



## sierra2000

VanCityPlumber said:


> How much higher should I be. I know it depends on overhead and all that. But what would you recommend. Regardless of my overhead costs what would a better hourly cost be?


 There's really no regardless of overhead. Use the example that I put up if you want to disregard your overhead. How much do you want to make? Then include your profit. As an owner investing your capital you should want $100,000 a year as your PERSONAL income, so you're already $100,000 in overhead. Can't swallow that? Try $75,000 for your personal income. After that your business will require at least $100,000 in overhead. Now you're at $175 to $200 an hour. Then you have a 10%, 15% or 20% profit to add to that. So divide your chosen hourly rate by .90 for 10% profit, .85 for 15% profit or .80 for 20% profit to get your selling rate with profit built in there. I know, screw that! I ain't charging that! Haha.

And yes, switch to flat rate and you wouldn't have to tell anyone your hourly rate.


----------



## Tommy plumber

Hoosier Plumber said:


> Do not change a thing until you know your cost.
> 
> Go to http://www.barebonesbiz.com/catalog/how-much-should-i-charge/. Download or buy a What should I charge.
> 
> Read this short book on how to figure up what to charge. Then find the page where she covers mist business expense, plug in you own numbers.
> 
> Be fair and realistic. Plan for where you want to be otherwise you'll never afford getting there. Don't short change expenses. EVERYTHING HAS TO BE COUNTED, otherwise you rate is not going to be enough.
> 
> When you are done calculating up for a divide by hours a year you can bill. Approx 1040 per one guy. Don't be overly generous on hours either we all know your not getting 7 billable a day with anyone working a 8 hour day.
> 
> There is your billable rate.
> 
> I'd contend that any one man shop with the most minimal overhead would be 110.00 an hour minimum if he is willing to keep his pay low.
> 
> Let's say he wants 80,000 a year.
> 
> 80,000/1040 = 76.00 an hour just to cover a meager compensation. I say meager because in that is wage, insurance, retirement, etc....
> 
> 76.00 an hour with 0 other expenses covered.












Your scenario assumes how many billable hours per week?


----------



## tmichielsen

Depends on what state you are in. I cant buy a 50 gallon electric or gas for less than 450.00 in Cali with all the low nox sytems requierments there are and we get under cut all the time by plumbers that refuse to install the system up to code safe and with permits. And i have to agree it is the coustmer to blame but some of it falls back on the company for failing to educate them on the proper install and why it is important i take that blame 50% of the time


----------



## Tommy plumber

tmichielsen said:


> Depends on what state you are in. I cant buy a 50 gallon electric or gas for less than 450.00 in Cali with all the low nox sytems requierments there are and we get under cut all the time by plumbers that refuse to install the system up to code safe and with permits. And i have to agree it is the coustmer to blame but some of it falls back on the company for failing to educate them on the proper install and why it is important i take that blame 50% of the time












Ultimately it is bad government that permits a non-code compliant water heater to be sold in the first place.


----------



## Shoot'N'Plumber

tmichielsen said:


> Depends on what state you are in. I cant buy a 50 gallon electric or gas for less than 450.00 in Cali with all the low nox sytems requierments there are and we get under cut all the time by plumbers that refuse to install the system up to code safe and with permits. And i have to agree it is the coustmer to blame but some of it falls back on the company for failing to educate them on the proper install and why it is important i take that blame 50% of the time


Dude! Without a proper intro we will have to assume your one of the guys doing the undercutting! To to the intro section


----------



## VanCityPlumber

I already have done one a year ago. Don't see need to do it again


----------



## Hoosier Plumber

Tommy plumber said:


> Your scenario assumes how many billable hours per week?


My scenario assumes 1040 billable hours a year. That is approximately 20 a week.


----------



## Gargalaxy

VanCityPlumber said:


> I already have done one a year ago. Don't see need to do it again


Are you sure you did it already? Just kidding...... Shoot'N'Plumber talking about tmichielsen...


----------



## Shoot'N'Plumber

VanCityPlumber said:


> I already have done one a year ago. Don't see need to do it again


No yur good dude! Was referring to tmichielson!


----------



## Tommy plumber

Hoosier Plumber said:


> My scenario assumes 1040 billable hours a year. That is approximately 20 a week.












That's what I was thinking since most business models state that each {40} hour work week will net approx. 20-21 billable hours per week.


----------



## chonkie

Sitting at home rained out of a french drain job so I decided to try an be useful somehow somewhere. I've read each post in this thread this morning and saw a few times it was said that you have to think you are worth it. I've tried getting my current boss to start charging more but he's pretty much set in his failing ways. My cousin and I are talking about starting our own business. The one thing that hasn't been said, is that knowledge is power. We have the knowledge to perform many task with many materials and have to deal with a lot poop, literal and metaphorical, along the way. We have to perform tasks that can harm and kill if not done to a high standard. Don't be scared to charge for what's between your ears. Do amazing work and show them the value earn that $$$.


----------



## sierra2000

Hoosier Plumber said:


> My scenario assumes 1040 billable hours a year. That is approximately 20 a week.


Maybe someone can correct my math here. How did you get 1040 hours? I keep coming up with 1000. 
365 days 104 sometimes 105 Saturdays and Sundays, I'll go with 105 
5 holidays 
5 vacation days 
I keep getting 2000 which translates to 1000 for service work.

For me that extra 40 hours would mean charging $15 less per hour.


----------



## plbgbiz

50% billable hour efficiency = 4 billable hours per day

(5 days per week) * (4 hours per day) = 20 hours per week

(20 hours per week) * (52 weeks per year) = 1,040 billable hours per year


----------



## sierra2000

plbgbiz said:


> 50% billable hour efficiency = 4 billable hours per day
> 
> (5 days per week) * (4 hours per day) = 20 hours per week
> 
> (20 hours per week) * (52 weeks per year) = 1,040 billable hours per year


52 weeks. 
Our difference has to be that I'm accounting for 5 holidays (1 week) and 5 days vacation (1 week). Which would bring you to my 50 weeks in a year = 1,000 billable hours right?


----------



## plbgbiz

sierra2000 said:


> 52 weeks.
> Our difference has to be that I'm accounting for 5 holidays (1 week) and 5 days vacation (1 week). Which would bring you to my 50 weeks in a year = 1,000 billable hours right?


Yep.

All in all, it is just a projected number. Unless you are filling out a daily time card or keeping accurate records on invoices for hours billed, then it is near impossible to get it exact. Some industry consultants use 1,100, 1040, or 1,000. I have seen it all three ways. 

Even at the 1,100 number, you are way ahead of the game from a budget standpoint. At least it is in a realistic ballpark. Then after a year (or even 6 months) a person could simply look at their hours billed and have a real number to plug into the equation.


----------



## VanCityPlumber

This has been very helpful. 

I and other guys in the trade never take days off and never take vacations.


----------



## SchmitzPlumbing

VanCityPlumber said:


> This has been very helpful.
> 
> I and other guys in the trade never take days off and never take vacations.



hold that thought, my shop will be closed the next 5 days, open for 3 and closed the next four. i will have to change my billable hours to 900 for the year wait another holiday coming up. sorry, closed for another week:thumbup:


----------



## Hoosier Plumber

1040 was being very charitable when considering Holidays, vacation, and other time off. 

It ought to serve as proof that we over invest our time as business owners but under pay ourselves. 

Take that charitable pay you think is helping the world and divide it out by the hours you truly invest in the business. It can be a little more than depressing. 

Heck even a 60 hour work week is sad. 

60 hours a week x 50 weeks = 3000

80,000/3000 = 26.00 an hour. 
75,000/3000 = 25.00 an hour.
70,000/3000 = 23.33

Now lets be perfectly honest with what you pay yourself. 

55,000/3000 = 18.30 an hour

or lets do one better 

45,000/3000 = 15.00 an hour

Of course we all know you would eventually make it back down the road. :laughing:

Why do you work for yourself again?


----------



## mtfallsmikey

Exactly! Guess that's why I got out of the biz, the local market at the time would not support charging those rates, when I got out 16 yrs. ago I was already charging the highest T&M rates in my area, but I believe I was giving superior service.


----------



## tims007

back in my hay day i showed up to one hose and was quoting the guy for a water heater that was leaking all over thier garage .. then a nebour comes up asks whats going on .. and the customer tells him .. i say i can go look at thiers also real quick .. (its is 330 pm ) people are starting to come home from picking up thier kids from school.. next thing i know im in 5 houses in a culdisac and i have given them all a quote of $800 each (down from $980 individualy) to do all 5 water heaters right then and there .. i get all 5 to sign invoices agreeing to terms andconditions and authorizing the start of work .. i call the parts guy and get him to bring 5 waterheaters .. i then start draining all of them ... as the parts guy shows up 30 min later with truck full of heaters and accosiated hardware the heaters are starting to stop draining .. i said take them out of the boxes and start staging the heaters next to thier old ones .. i start pulling the old ones out and draging them to the truck as the helper is positioning them .. i then start ataching the coper flex lines to them one at a time and start hocking them up one at a time and the electrical also .. once they were hooked up i started filling them and went to the next one .. helper is watching them fill .. when they are all full the helper bleeds the house of all air and then throws the switch .. 


5 water heaters, $800 each,3.5 hours start of work to getting paid ... that was many moons ago ... and man what a pay day it was working 20% commission back then ... 

now if tha were to happen it would be an all day event as i am now a OMS lol


----------



## VanCityPlumber

Tims, 

I find it difficult to do a tank in less than 4 hours. 

What is your secret?


----------



## SchmitzPlumbing

VanCityPlumber said:


> Tims,
> 
> I find it difficult to do a tank in less than 4 hours.
> 
> What is your secret?


you are slow, you would be out of business or fired quickly in my area. 1 guy, 1.5 hours max, 2 guys, 1 hour max (without drive time) if you are ever in my area, i will show you


----------



## rjbphd

VanCityPlumber said:


> Tims,
> 
> I find it difficult to do a tank in less than 4 hours.
> 
> What is your secret?


Wtf??? Did mine in 3.5 hours.. with copper repiping... add fittings for ice maker, ran hot water line and return line, ( no fookin pump needed on this dbl return line).. add fittings for new dishwasher,.. all black iron gas piping with new shut off.. all this in basement with cocked stairs...


----------



## SunnyDaRench

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> you are slow, you would be out of business or fired quickly in my area. 1 guy, 1.5 hours max, 2 guys, 1 hour max (without drive time) if you are ever in my area, i will show you


I do em under 90 minutes under normal circumstances, but have seen and heard of shops allow up to 8 hours for a residential gas 50 water heater installation, P.S. There smartphones must have a very long battery life!


----------



## Coolcanuck

VanCityPlumber said:


> Tims,
> 
> I find it difficult to do a tank in less than 4 hours.
> 
> What is your secret?


Get a pump from princess auto for 100 to empty the tank


----------



## tims007

The fastest I ever did a 50 gallon tank by my self was 40 min from the time my truck was turned off to the time I turned it back on granted they knew and so did I that the tank was being replaced


----------



## mtfallsmikey

I used to average 2-3 hrs. on one, depended on how difficult the old one was to drain and move...those quick times are for you young bucks now, I would just sit back and clean fittings for ya!


----------



## dhal22

VanCityPlumber said:


> Tims,
> 
> I find it difficult to do a tank in less than 4 hours.
> 
> What is your secret?


No need for more than 1 1/2 hrs to exchange a heater. 


David


----------



## VanCityPlumber

It takes atleast 30 minutes to confirm the temp of the tank matches the tap temperature

It takes me 15 minutes to fill out permit decal and clean up

It also takes me 15 minutes to do the bill.

I also do a 15 minute inspection and gas leak check. 

I have already burned through an hour and 15

That's where my time goes. 

I do think its important


----------



## MACPLUMB777

I have a specially nipple made up 3/4" x 3" - 4" with a brass 3/4"fip x 3/4"
male hose tread fitting, first thing off with the water then pull drain valve and install my 3/4" "full port" nipple with garden hose if in garage or other ground floor location throw in a pony pump if in basement or other location that needs pump to drain

prep. new heater by that time old heater has drained enough to pull make up new shut off valve, expansion tank etc, throw in new tank and start filling 
pull warranty label off old tank write invoice, check all facets to be sure water flowing light new heater and do third or fourth check to confirm no water leaks 
from new install collect payment from HO and move on 1.5 hours total
Oh $1650.00 new 40 gal gas, $650.00 for a in warranty replacement

ON TO NEXT CALL'S


----------



## VanCityPlumber

Can you take a picture of this fitting.


----------



## MACPLUMB777

VanCityPlumber said:


> Can you take a picture of this fitting.


Just a standard 3/4" galv. nipple you buy the hose adp. at just about any hardware store ACE ETC,

The point is you get a full size opening for the lime and crud to push out of,
I forgot I also used to turn the cold water back on at full pressure to break up lime and to start getting water to flow then let it run from their


----------



## JoshJ

JERRYMAC said:


> I have a specially nipple made up 3/4" x 3" - 4" with a brass 3/4"fip x 3/4"
> male hose tread fitting, first thing off with the water then pull drain valve and install my 3/4" "full port" nipple with garden hose if in garage or other ground floor location throw in a pony pump if in basement or other location that needs pump to drain
> 
> prep. new heater by that time old heater has drained enough to pull make up new shut off valve, expansion tank etc, throw in new tank and start filling
> pull warranty label off old tank write invoice, check all facets to be sure water flowing light new heater and do third or fourth check to confirm no water leaks
> from new install collect payment from HO and move on 1.5 hours total
> Oh $1650.00 new 40 gal gas, $650.00 for a in warranty replacement
> 
> ON TO NEXT CALL'S


Pretty much how I do, except I haven't gotten past the "thinking about replacing the drain" stage yet. Gonna have to rig this up before the next call comes in, and reading this thread thinking it's time my install rate on water heaters went up also!


----------



## sparky

JERRYMAC said:


> Just a standard 3/4" galv. nipple you buy the hose adp. at just about any hardware store ACE ETC,
> 
> The point is you get a full size opening for the lime and crud to push out of,
> I forgot I also used to turn the cold water back on at full pressure to break up lime and to start getting water to flow then let it run from their


You ever have the plastic or brass drain valve break off in the tank??i have seen some boiler drains so brittle that I'm sure they would break off


----------



## Coolcanuck

sparky said:


> You ever have the plastic or brass drain valve break off in the tank??i have seen some boiler drains so brittle that I'm sure they would break off


Plastic breaks all the time on me. Have a 1" chisel I hammer in to thread them out.


----------



## Ghostmaker

Looks like a get you in the door price. I'm sure Tank pans with drains and new expansion tanks are add on's. And permits and new ball valves.

Don't forget the free house inspection to plant seeds of future work that may be required. And up selling a maintenance contract. And sticker sticker sticker.

Sales and being a plumber is the repair plumbers job.


----------



## sparky

Coolcanuck said:


> Plastic breaks all the time on me. Have a 1" chisel I hammer in to thread them out.


Isn't water pouring out on you when it breaks off makin hell of a mess???


----------



## dclarke

I've heard but never tried....make a rig to chuck onto an air compressor hose by 3/4 thread and put it onto the t&p. With the water heater shut off and the boiler drain open and the compressed air will clear the heater quickly.


----------



## sparky

dclarke said:


> I've heard but never tried....make a rig to chuck onto an air compressor hose by 3/4 thread and put it onto the t&p. With the water heater shut off and the boiler drain open and the compressed air will clear the heater quickly.


Did that once but from top of cold water inlet,never did it break the crap loose at the bottom drain but it did allow a whole bunch of air/water pressure to build up in that tank and when I figured out I was wasting my time I had a air bomb on my hands,dam air and water blew out forever,never again for me


----------



## Nathan901

Shut the valve off on the cold side and you make a sharbite adapter for the hot and pressurize it there. 
If you have a stubborn heater it makes sense , but I find the prep time for the new tank usually is about the same as the drain down.


----------



## wyrickmech

Had a stubborn one yesterday ended up just pulling the relief valve and turning it on its side at a floor drain. Works in a pinch.


----------



## MACPLUMB777

dclarke said:


> i've heard but never tried....make a rig to chuck onto an air compressor hose by 3/4 thread and put it onto the t&p. With the water heater shut off and the boiler drain open and the compressed air will clear the heater quickly.


takes 
1-3/4" x 1/2" bell reducer
1-1/2" x 1/8" bushing
1-1-1/8" schrader valve

or just use a 3/4" gas test valve

and use on the hot side of the tank !

As far as the drain valves breaking off you have to use common sense if you think it might break in a area where leaking water would do serious damage then do not try to remove it,

but if as was the case many times for me you are in a garage, or an outside alcove, or a full basement with a floor drain nearby and where a little water leakage would not cause a problem then go for it ! !

The last few years that i worked on a truck i had both the pony pump from johnson supply, and a small air compressor from 
harbor fright with the yellow pull out hose so either way that tank was getting drained too sweet


----------



## Coolcanuck

sparky said:


> Isn't water pouring out on you when it breaks off makin hell of a mess???


Only once did I have to do that, a few times I had to hold the cracked valve in place while it drained. It air locks so the glurgs aren't so bad, unless the water is hot, that sucks.


----------



## GrtLksPlbr

Ptturner91 said:


> I'm not saying that, just 150 an hour sounds a little rich, how do you justify that? In my area 100 is a lot an hour
> I'm just wondering how you justify your hourly rate when it's almost more then the faucet



I'm wondering the same thing. The company I still work for is charging $96/hour and is one of the most expensive in the area. Then there are charges for various things, like auger use, camera fees, service charge, after hours fees if applicable.

I'm wondering if some of that $150 hour is made up with material mark-up?


----------



## plbgbiz

T. Scott said:


> I'm wondering the same thing. The company I still work for is charging $96/hour and is one of the most expensive in the area. Then there are charges for various things, like auger use, camera fees, service charge, after hours fees if applicable.
> 
> I'm wondering if some of that $150 hour is made up with material mark-up?


It sounds like you are already charging more than $96hr. The cost of equipment maintenance and replacement is an overhead expense. This is no different than the overhead cost of having a van. Do you charge a van fee? A pipe wrench fee? A work boots fee? Of course not. I am being purposefully ridiculous in one way but also very serious.

The auger fee for instance...

A complete K-60 kit the way ours is rigged up might cost close to $3K (rounding up). Eventually the unit and cables will have to be replaced. Just to pick a time out of thin air, let's say the unit only has a life expectancy of two years. Let's also assume it is used in a One-Man-Shop with one truck that is only billing 1,000 hours per year.

Over the course of two years (2,000 billed hours), if the shop charged $97.50 per hour instead of $96 they could throw it in the trash and have a completely new kit every 24 months.

This seems more manageable and predictable than nickle and diming the customer that just happens to need the drain cabled. I have to have well maintained equipment ready to go no matter what the customer calls for. As a result, equipment costs are overhead expenses that are figured into the billable hour rate.


----------



## GrtLksPlbr

plbgbiz-

You have no idea how timely your input is. My wife and I are meeting with a an accountant this afternoon with an eye toward starting up a OMS and possibly blossoming into a small 2-4 man shop. 

I printed your 5 page guide on establishing pricing and am happy to find that we (my wife and I) had already put together something similar, which gives me hope that maybe my business sense is further evolved than I thought. Add to that my wife has a great head for numbers and accounting and has worked as in the billing and dispatch department for the company I'm still with.

Maybe, just maybe we can do this and find ourselves with a bit better standard of living. One where the bills are paid and there's such a thing as savings and retirement.


----------



## Phat Cat

Mr.Biz - I understand your point, but (bet you knew that was coming) at what point is it right to charge every customer a fee via an overhead cost for equipment that is only used on a small percentage of jobs?

We don't have an equipment fee per se, but we cover it in a higher labor rate when we use said equipment. 

IMO it should be factored in just as risk / liability is factored in. 

In a perfect world, with careful accounting, you would be able to tell what equipment is really paying for itself and not relying on every customer to pay for equipment that is seldom used. 

If I am going to raise the hourly rate to cover additional overhead, it must be for something I deem valuable - like a raise for me. I recently read happy workers are 12% more productive. ; o)


----------



## tims007

when it comes to waterheaters you are not doing time and materials to get to that cost .. you are doing the cost at what it is because you are providing hot water for them to live normally in todays society ( figure the haves and the have nots ) if you did time and material the heater install etc would be cheap and then when you do that you are coaching the customer to believe that having hot water and having it done cheap is normal and that everyone else is ripping them off.. ... 
there is a price to pay for having a skilled person make you have hot water 

im sorry if this sounds phucked up .. but that is the way it is .. if you want to not make a profit and a retirement and a toy fund then go ahead and charge less that $300 to install a water heater and get the customer used to having a luxury item at cheap rates


----------



## plumberkc

We need to stop obsessing over the lowest prices we see or hear about. This thread should be deleted, taking the lowest number possible and broadcasting it to an extreme. When you hear a low price you just need to ignore it and go about your business. You're not going to get every job, you don't want to work for every client. Charge what you need to keep your business profitable and ignore what the bottom feeders are doing.


----------



## sparky

plumberkc said:


> We need to stop obsessing over the lowest prices we see or hear about. This thread should be deleted, taking the lowest number possible and broadcasting it to an extreme. When you hear a low price you just need to ignore it and go about your business. You're not going to get every job, you don't want to work for every client. Charge what you need to keep your business profitable and ignore what the bottom feeders are doing.


You can do this in a larger population area but here in rural ky we need every customer,if we don't get it for some money you will not be doing anything at all


----------



## tims007

sparky said:


> You can do this in a larger population area but here in rural ky we need every customer,if we don't get it for some money you will not be doing anything at all


Perhaps you should take your compition to breakfast and discuss the commodity of giving people hot water


----------



## plbgbiz

tims007 said:


> Perhaps you should take your compition to breakfast and discuss the commodity of giving people hot water


 And discuss how to keep it from being a commodity.


----------



## sparky

tims007 said:


> Perhaps you should take your compition to breakfast and discuss the commodity of giving people hot water


Tried that but when your competitions wife has a nice good paying job with insurance to cover him also,plus he was left a lot of money when mother passed away and now he just does jobs to kill the day,if he makes a few bucks fine,if he braks even that ok to.I CANT COMPETE WITH THAT::no:


----------



## wyrickmech

sparky said:


> Tried that but when your competitions wife has a nice good paying job with insurance to cover him also,plus he was left a lot of money when mother passed away and now he just does jobs to kill the day,if he makes a few bucks fine,if he braks even that ok to.I CANT COMPETE WITH THAT::no:


 then don't. He can't install every water heater in your area. Just set a price and do a good job quality over quantity will always win the good customer.


----------



## sparky

wyrickmech said:


> then don't. He can't install every water heater in your area. Just set a price and do a good job quality over quantity will always win the good customer.


You are right about that as I have gone behind him and a lot of people were not happy with him or his work,he sometimes will not show up at all and leave people hangin,but they don't care as long as they get something cheap


----------



## tims007

sparky said:


> You are right about that as I have gone behind him and a lot of people were not happy with him or his work,he sometimes will not show up at all and leave people hangin,but they don't care as long as they get something cheap


Stick to your guns and keep a proper price ... they will soon see the quality they want heck offer a beter warrenty than him and beter produckt


----------



## wyrickmech

tims007 said:


> Stick to your guns and keep a proper price ... they will soon see the quality they want heck offer a beter warrenty than him and beter produckt


 also somebody that low balls all of the time usually isn't around long even if his costs are low. Nobody likes doing something for nothing for very long. It's a marathon not a sprint.


----------



## SchmitzPlumbing

honestly, i have raised my prices on a 40 nat gas regular vent since this post started. $640 installed. i got 2 out of 5. the 2 that i did, i was happy. the 3 that i lost sucked. thats how the pricing is where i am.


----------



## Cajunhiker

Progress. Now, go even higher for all of our sakes. It's a mindset. Btw, a closing ratio of 40% is a lil above average in the home improvement industry. Give more value and benefits, and I bet you can close even more deals WITH A HIGHER PRICE. Let me add, people don't buy things based on price, it's always the value and benefits. Don't sell them a water heater, sell them a warm shower every morning with a lifetime guarantee if they get a service agreement. Bon Chance.


----------



## MNplumb1

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> honestly, i have raised my prices on a 40 nat gas regular vent since this post started. $640 installed. i got 2 out of 5. the 2 that i did, i was happy. the 3 that i lost sucked. thats how the pricing is where i am.


He we go again. I admit I have done a few electric water heaters for cheap I may of even added to the fire of this thread but $640 includes the tank? This seems low even to me? 

I have also raised my rates on my installs last one was $975 for a atmospheric LP. Am I still giving this away? Does not include hauling old one off property.


----------



## plbgbiz

Phat Cat said:


> Mr.Biz - I understand your point, but (bet you knew that was coming) at what point is it right to charge every customer a fee via an overhead cost for equipment that is only used on a small percentage of jobs?...


Rule #1...Every rule has an exception, even rule #1.

Rule #X...Tools and equipment are an overhead expense to be calculated into the billable hour rate. The cost of the equipment and frequency of its use does not necessarily create an exception from this rule.

That's the how. Here's the why.

Basic service cost does go up a bit for everyone. But at the same time, I can (if needed) be more competitive on services needing my special tools. Everyone pays a little instead of just a couple of people getting a price that is unattainable.


----------



## plbgbiz

HOWEVER....

If a person accurately accounts for the overhead expense of certain equipment, 

AND they accurately account for the number of billable hours in a year they are able to use that particular piece of equipment, 

THEN and only then would I suggest only the customer needing that equipment charge for it.


----------



## plbgbiz

In addition to the above statement, I also believe that businesses that are charging an equipment fee on particular jobs that accurately account for that expense, are by far the exception rather than the rule. I seriously doubt anyone is billing enough to cover the cost of seldom used equipment if they are only billing it on the single job they use it.

If that is the plan, then those business owners should stop buying equipment and just rent it for the jobs they need it for. But if you are going to own it, then you also own the overhead expense associated with it.


----------



## sierra2000

Everything I buy gets included into my overhead which raises my price accordingly. Unless you have separate service departments like service, drain cleaning and trenchless repair under one roof where each department has its own overhead where specialty tools for that department would be included but shares the office overhead, they should be spread out over every job.


----------



## Phat Cat

sierra2000 said:


> Everything I buy gets included into my overhead which raises my price accordingly. Unless you have separate service departments like service, drain cleaning and trenchless repair under one roof where each department has its own overhead where specialty tools for that department would be included but shares the office overhead, they should be spread out over every job.


Quick response - I do separate drain cleaning from plumbing services. Considering dropping drain cleaning from the list of services offered as I don't believe it's profitable for us for a myriad of reasons. 

Don't have the numbers in front of me, but I would guess it makes up no more than 10% of our overall sales. Probably less than 5%.


----------



## wyrickmech

Phat Cat said:


> Quick response - I do separate drain cleaning from plumbing services. Considering dropping drain cleaning from the list of services offered as I don't believe it's profitable for us for a myriad of reasons. Don't have the numbers in front of me, but I would guess it makes up no more than 10% of our overall sales. Probably less than 5%.


I'm glad I am not the only one that does not see this being as profitable as once lead to believe.


----------



## plbgbiz

Phat Cat said:


> ...I don't believe it's [drain cleaning] profitable for us for a myriad of reasons...


To be even remotely at a competitive price point for residential drain cleaning service calls, you cannot build much overhead or profit into those calls alone and feel very good about it. The sales that drain cleaning leads to is where the real money is.

That is why larger and smarter companies use those drain cleaning calls as the tool that they are. A lead-in to the real work. Repairs, replacements, and additional plumbing services beyond drain cleaning.


----------



## MACPLUMB777

plbgbiz said:


> To be even remotely at a competitive price point for residential drain cleaning service calls, you cannot build much overhead or profit into those calls alone and feel very good about it. The sales that drain cleaning leads to is where the real money is.
> 
> That is why larger and smarter companies use those drain cleaning calls as the tool that they are. A lead-in to the real work. Repairs, replacements, and additional plumbing services beyond drain cleaning.


I agree with the Biz. on this I can not count all the numerous times drain calls
lead into much bigger plumbing work that I would not have gotten if I was not already there doing drains,

And I am not talking about the recent use of camera inspections to upsale
pipe repairs or replacements

If you have too consider it a lost leader, to get your NAME in front of customers


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## plbgbiz

The idea of not doing drain cleaning seems a little like a dentist opting out of teeth cleaning because it doesn't make any money.


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## Phat Cat

plbgbiz said:


> To be even remotely at a competitive price point for residential drain cleaning service calls, you cannot build much overhead or profit into those calls alone and feel very good about it. The sales that drain cleaning leads to is where the real money is.
> 
> That is why larger and smarter companies use those drain cleaning calls as the tool that they are. A lead-in to the real work. Repairs, replacements, and additional plumbing services beyond drain cleaning.


As I said before, I have many valid reasons. One you just touched on - we are not set-up, nor have the manpower / equipment to take these opportunities to where they need to go. 

Sadly, we clear the blockage and leave. Not enough drain cleaning calls to warrant gearing up for those opportunities. Maybe 3 a month? 

In addition, we have a dedicated company here who only does drain cleaning. Honestly he is the best at it and most all plumbing cos. Call him in when they get in over their heads.

Our situation is unique.


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## plbgbiz

Phat Cat said:


> ...Our situation is unique.


Hence, Rule #1. :yes:

I did not do any drain cleaning for the first couple of years we were in business. I had an arrangement similar to yours with another company.


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## Leach713

16 pages later........
"Eat chips,then drink dr. Pepper"


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## dhal22

JERRYMAC said:


> I agree with the Biz. on this I can not count all the numerous times drain calls
> lead into much bigger plumbing work that I would not have gotten if I was not already there doing drains,
> 
> And I am not talking about the recent use of camera inspections to upsale
> pipe repairs or replacements
> 
> If you have too consider it a lost leader, to get your NAME in front of customers


We happily do 'internet specials' on drain cleaning or just drain cleaning in general. There is often other items to make the trip worthwhile. A camera followup is a quick add on for example. Even better is selling a dig job as well. Returned for the 3rd time today to a problematic drain customer, this time the camera was going in regardless of whether they paid for it or not. A photo of the separated pipe was texted to the owner and a dig job was sold shortly thereafter. This is a 'internet special' customer.

David


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## jnohs

sierra2000 said:


> I only did one job today.
> 
> Two owner supplied toilet seats
> New kitchen faucet
> New disposer
> New drains under kitchen sink
> Unclog bathtub
> Replaced drains under bathroom sink
> Installed two owner supplied bathroom sink faucets
> $2,802 flat rate. No question about how much I charge per hour ever came up.


That is how it is done. Just did a similar job yesterday kitchen-sink and faucet, 1 toilet rebuild, 1 bathroom faucet w/ popup, 1 lead bend replace---Total--->$1900 flat rate no question of time ever came up. they were good customers whom I have done work for multiple times for in the past. About 5 hours $380 in materials they are happy and everything is install flawlessly and we as plumbers get to make good money as a result, just gotta stick to your guns. Not every customer is a perfect match to my services, if they do not have money I do not want to know there name or there problem. If they have money the sky is the limit.


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## Green Country

I know this thread is old but I'm bumping it because it's full of great info.


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## czplumbing

Around my area 150 to show up then what ever you charge an hour. I am $110 an hour , $155 with helper. and that's cheap. I tell them welcome to the *Welcome to the Hamptons. *H/w install 50 Gal Electric around $1700


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## whitey

This past Saturday I got sucked into a real horror show water heater job (water heater jobs should not be in the same sentence with horror show period) where the homeowner got a good taste of what the difference is in paying joe the jerkoff handyman $20-25 an hour or something to install a 50 gallon rheem - home depot electric heater that they purchased, where its been turned into a 3 day event rather than a 3 hour event if they called me first. And why I, a licensed plumber can charge what I charge and thats that... Aside from the obvious fact that I have to charge what I charge, and honestly I think my rates are low for my area, but I still get under cut left and right... 

And real quick, thank you plbgbiz... I appreciated that document, not that I wasnt already doing things that way... but reading that today put a lot in perspective for me... 

Moving on....

I get a call from a customer who tells me that they had someone put in a water heater and its not working, no hot water, no water coming out of certain faucets, and whatever else was wrong... I say well why are you calling me, call the company who put it in and make them come back... (silence on the other end of the phone)..... "Uhhhhh well he's here and he cant stop the leaks and this and that".... Ok... I'm on the way..


First thing I see when I walk into the basement is a trashcan under the horrific looking piping mess thats more than half full because my man didnt clean or even paste the joints before he attempted to solder them.... He thought water in the pipe was the reason the solder wasnt taking..... so he came up with the idea that he'd be able to stop the water by jamming a half loaf of Italian bread (I guess he heard that myth/joke somewhere) into various sections of pipe/fittings prior to putting them together... Well at least that solved the "what are the faucets clogged with question"... All joints leaked, most didnt even take heat or any real force to prevent me from simply pulling apart the fittings and pipe.... I guess the leaks were going to seal up "once everything heated up and was running" I heard someone say somewhere along the way..... 

The next problem was (or the original????) they were getting their hot water off of a tankless coil, so they wanted to eliminate the coil shutting off the boiler in the summer and use the heater.... Ok... but the guy piped it so the hot would never make it out of the tank, hot water line bypassing right into the cold (or the reverse) via a ballvalve that was meant to be used as a tempering valve by a prior moron.... 

I wish I took a pic of the atrocity but looking at the menage of unnecessary piping was giving me a headache so I just hacked it off at the coil, cut off the pipes at the ceiling (H/C), and took off the female adapters praying the dip tube wasnt melted and started from scratch doing it right... So problem 1 being the effed piping, problem 2 being all the clogged faucets... I straightened out all of it in less than 3 hours and then I figured out problem #3, or excuse me, that there is a problem #3... 

The electrical for the heater was non-existent prior to this install seeing they were originally getting water off of the boilers tankless, but when I got there I noticed that it had the right size wire (10-2/3 seeing it was a 240v heater (??? still dont know why they went with that heater, ohhh... it was the cheapest one..)), so I really didnt pay much attention to the wiring (seeing I'm a plumber) other than it was there, hooked up, and turned off... I obviously used a hot stick to see if it was live or not and went about my business re-piping it and clearing the Italian bread flavored snot out of the lines and then faucets....

So after I filled the tank, bled the lines, had the person who did all this damage.... flip the breaker on (I didnt realize this was the person that screwed all this up the entire time until after the job, I felt bad after wards because I was saying all sorts of nasty stuff like the person who did this needs to be shot etc..., lol)... Anyhow, power is on, no breakers popping... ok so far so good... I pull the element covers and I check the upper element and I was getting power there, so I assumed things were on the up and I was all set... So I start rounding up my tools, making out my bill, trying to wait it out and see the bottom element kick on as I shut the valves to the tank after purging it so cold water wouldnt slow the process if anyone opened a faucet.... So a sufficient amount of time had went by, at least a good 30-40 minutes of running around and cleaning up, checking and re-checking... the water should of at least been warm if not hot at least in the top half of the tank.... in turn switching the power to the bottom element..... it was warmer than the cold is all I can say.... Now I was puzzled...

I start looking at the wiring... I trace it back to a breaker labeled "range" as by this time joe the jerkoff was too tired to hang around and watch me work anymore so I didnt have his expertise to tell me how it was wired.... "well then" I said... You need an electrician now because this is beyond my realm of expertise... (I can live without the lawsuit because I burned someones house down due to digging into their electrical problems when I'm a plumber).... I pulled the sub-panel cover and saw that the heater was wired to it, and the original label of "range" was accurate, both were wired to the same 30amp breaker... I have no clue how the breaker hadnt popped or caused any issue by now..... I guess the term "electrician" is used as lightly as "Plumber" around here.... 

Supposedly an actual electrician did the wiring, who came back a 3rd time after I fixed the piping.... to test the upper element and say "yep, you got power its all set" and runs out the door after 2 days of the people waiting for it to "heat up"... Mind you this job was done on friday by these people and they went home leaving the pipes leaking etc... My guess is its not wired with enough amperage, but again... I'm a plumber not an electrician... But it doesnt say much for him because he came prior to me (his 2nd time) and said "everything looks good, just wait for it to heat up".... a day after it was installed and still not hot, "once it gets hot"... right.....

Now I have the home owner up my ass after going above and beyond on a saturday night on a job that was done the day before, but I gotta get the call on saturday after 4, they couldnt call me for the job originally so I could have done it properly from jump street or at least gave them an accurate $ on it..... I'm guessing the homeowner already forked out somewhere close to $2000 and they're still getting water from the coil on the boiler because I separated the 2 with valves to use one or the other, not both.... but its still not right... An "actual" electrician needs to install a separate breaker for it I'm imagining.... Now literally as I'm typing this I hear my father in the back ground talking to some other idiot that got them selves involved with this trying to explain to him how the elements dont work at the same time, the top goes on; heats up the top half of the tank first and then once its happy the bottom goes on.... the electrician is telling them the bottom element is "burned out" because he has power at the top element and the bottom needs to be changed... Yet the top element has yet to turn off since installation... 

This is why you can NOT be nice and/or "fair" about your pricing, 90% of our jobs are "negative sales", meaning people dont wanna pay for our services... but they have to... no one wants to pay $1000 (+/- depending on your locale) to install a water heater, or replace a leaking section of cast iron, or whatever nightmare crap job you can think of, etc.... The jobs you take $ off of and try to be nice about are the ones that come back and bite you in the ass and end up costing you $ and end up going back to for $0 more than once, and even then after doing all you can to make it right, the people are never going to be happy. So charge/quote (get everything in writing and in triplicate) what you're supposed to from the beginning, do the work right and you'll never lose or feel you got beat or have to chalk anything up to a loss... Losses should be learned from or contributed to the work for friends/family scenarios we get dragged into...

If someone's pressing you with the "well this guy can do it for $***...." and its less than you would normally do it for... You say well go ahead and have him do it... Dont cheat yourself and dont let other people dictate what youre worth/the job is worth... (obviously all situations are different and require some thought but none of them should end with you doing more work for less $ than you should be getting)...

I'm also well aware of how the difference in location dictates price fiercely, even town to town or county to county.... My uncle has his own plumbing business in a quaint shoreline town where $ isnt really an issue, the kinda place where if you have to ask how much something costs; you dont belong there and will be followed by more than 1 police vehicle out of town.... He wont touch a 40 gallon gas fired for less than $1250.... we have had the same standing price of $950 for well over 5 years now and constantly get beat up on prices... We're in business 10-12 miles away and his whole family drives range rovers and land cruisers... My old man drives our only work vehicle as his personal on the weekends or his 96 low rider, I drive an 04 impala... So where you are in this world does matter what you can charge... And before you say it.... I want out of this business like a baby thats been in the womb for 6 months too long... but thats another LONGER story for another day...

Charge the right $, dont be discouraged by the under cutters... As stated, they wont be around long...


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## plumberkc

Can't we just let this thread die? Or maybe change the title to $850 water heater install. We like to focus on the cheapest guys in the nation and its bad to the industry as a whole. Gives guys the perception that everybody is charging bottom dollar.


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## Tommy plumber

Hey ******, thanks for the novel.....next time number the chapters for me....:laughing:



I'm kidding. And yes, the breaker for the W/H has to be dedicated for only the electric water heater by my codes. And I would imagine by the NEC, although I, like you am not an electrician.


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## Plumberdood1

I wouldn't bother starting the van for( 950.00 NG water heater)


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## HonestPlumb

Amazing what customers will say, lie, and threaten to get you to try to say, "Ok I'll do it for ......" I tell them to get those guys with the nice cheap price, and make sure they have liability insurance, workers Comp, A License, Bonded by the State, going to pull a permit! It is unbelievable the variety of mentalities out there. I live in a suburb of Wall St., where some of these peoples bonuses when times were really good were in excess of $10 million dollars ! Their yearly compensation was usually less, in the neighborhood of a half a million (how could someone survive it on that ?). Some had the mentality that "money is no object", others squeaked when they walked, those are the ones you want to choke !!! You do a 75 gallon NG fired water heater where you had to drop cloth the white carpet from the front door 40 feet to the basemant door, drop cloth the stairs, drop cloth 30 feet of carpeted basement. Have to replace the drain by catching on the fly because it is 20 years old and full of sediment and wont drain. Two guys struggling to get it uo the stairs because of the foot and a half of sediment ! Nothing lines up-gas,water,and flue. Two guys spend 3-4 hours. Give them a bill for $2800, and they freak out. On the phone when they called and give them a range because of the variables involved of $2,200- $3,000, they only here the $2200 !! Few and far between giving prices with a range. Hate to loose a job because they ask for a ball park number, cause these days you get a lot of "calling around for prices" calls. When they say the old " I can get it done for .....less" . I say go ahead, but don't forget to ask them if they have a plumbing license, liability insurance, workers comp, Bonded by the State, going to pull a permit to make sure "for your safety" it is done correctly. You would not believe the people that have no clue when it comes to asking about those requirements. They think "how different a job could they do, as long as the water gets hot". Yet they will go to out to dinner with another couple and blow more than that. That they rationalize as OK! They're just plumbers, they shouldn't make that kind of money !" Unbelievable !!!! Stick to your prices guys. We actually have to work for a living!!!!


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## HonestPlumb

*sorry, misspelled "hear"


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## Absaroka Joe

Honest Plumb, workers comp and state bonding is of absolutely no material importance to a homeowner. Liability insurance is important. Licensing is the concern of the state and Licensee not a homeowner. Assuming a WH (or any plumbing work) is being replaced properly because someone somewhere within the company has a master license is a fools game and a mistake often made. I won't beging to talk about the usefullness of inspections in most places.


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## Phat Cat

Absaroka Joe said:


> Honest Plumb, workers comp and state bonding is of absolutely no material importance to a homeowner. Liability insurance is important. Licensing is the concern of the state and Licensee not a homeowner. Assuming a WH (or any plumbing work) is being replaced properly because someone somewhere within the company has a master license is a fools game and a mistake often made. I won't beging to talk about the usefullness of inspections in most places.


I was under the impression that if you worked in someone's home and got hurt, you could put a claim in against their homeowner's insurance, which would make Workman's Comp worth thinking about.

I do agree with your post in general - homeowners do not care one iota what it costs to run a business. All they want to know is what it is going to cost and is there anything in it for them (extraordinary warranties etc).


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## HonestPlumb

Absaroka Joe- Wouldn't a homeowner with intelligence think that if a contractor that posesses the proper documentation that the state requires of them to operate in that state be more prone to doing a correct job at an honest price. Regardless of how it directly or indirectly effects them ?


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## CajunMaint

Thats a great question!


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## Tommy plumber

*Hello! Introduction Requested* 
An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/. 

The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession) 

Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field. 

This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is. 

We look forward to your valuable input.


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## Tommy plumber

CajunMaint said:


> Thats a great question!












88 'thanks'? And 1 post. Sheesh.


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## rjbphd

CajunMaint said:


> Thats a great question!


We have a question for you.. what a unlicensed handyhack like you doing here??


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## SchmitzPlumbing

Tommy plumber said:


> 88 'thanks'? And 1 post. Sheesh.


he has been busy. 226 thanks.


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## plumberkc

They just launched a website and now are trying to get traffic. Probably not the real business owner in control of cajun's profile.


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## Absaroka Joe

HonestPlumb said:


> Absaroka Joe- Wouldn't a homeowner with intelligence think that if a contractor that posesses the proper documentation that the state requires of them to operate in that state be more prone to doing a correct job at an honest price. Regardless of how it directly or indirectly effects them ?


 
HP, IMHO if a homeowner is calling up a small local and reputable shop with an involved owner, then I absolutely agree with you! However, when a homeowner calls some outfit with a dozen or more trucks, then there is no way to know who or what will show up to do the job. Around here you will likely get a 19 year old apprentice with an infected nose ring and speaking broken english. If there is a jouneyman with him he is probably sitting in the fully wrapped neon green truck talking to his girlfriend on the company iphone and doesn't come in the house until it is time to start pusing an upsell for added commission. That business model may make financial sense but there is no reason to defend these types just because someone in the organizaion has a master license. This type of plumbing company is everywhere. Everywhere. The homowner would be much better off calling a local unlicensed union jouneyman that just happens to be sitting on the bench for a few days who could stop by with a water heater. I would recommend a competent side jobbing Plumber anyday over the typical high pressure upselling, commission based, plumbing franchises that feed off the gullible with their used car sales tactics and specialize in doing crap work.


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## HonestPlumb

Abraska Joe- Wow, that was an incredibly perfect example of some of the clown outfits I have to compete against !! Very good sumation of the majority of homeowners choices. I truly have run into a homeowner once in a blue moon that has asked about insurance. Usually liability as you had said. A couple of times they have persued further. Whether I had Workmans Comp, I was the holder of a master license, years in trade. It is either one extreme or the other it seems.


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## plumb_aus

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> he has been busy. 226 thanks.


What does getting a lot of 'thanks' do anyway? some weird SEO method??

:furious:


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## plumb_aus

*huh?*



plumberkc said:


> They just launched a website and now are trying to get traffic. Probably not the real business owner in control of cajun's profile.


What does that mean?


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## plumberkc

plumb_aus said:


> What does getting a lot of 'thanks' do anyway? some weird SEO method??
> 
> :furious:


It gets them more visits to their profile page which is linking back to their website. From there people click on the website to see if it's a real company or not, which is subsequently giving them additional traffic.


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## plumb_aus

plumberkc said:


> It gets them more visits to their profile page which is linking back to their website. From there people click on the website to see if it's a real company or not, which is subsequently giving them additional traffic.


Who's them? more bots?


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## paytheplumber

Business owner dont say things like we can easily install W/Hs for $650


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## paytheplumber

Hoosier Plumber said:


> 1 hour install
> 
> Is that from pulling into driveway to leaving with a check?


 Hell no to 1 hr job...dont confuse flat rate pricing with hourly pricing.
Some dont wanna drain...some need to be lifted...some need a new cutoff...permit?...laying down tarps and clean up...etc


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## dhal22

plumberkc said:


> It gets them more visits to their profile page which is linking back to their website. From there people click on the website to see if it's a real company or not, which is subsequently giving them additional traffic.



Well damn. All these wasted years not having my website listed here for clickbacks. Please start clicking everybody.


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## HonestPlumb

I am actually doing a 40 gallon 6 year today. 2nd Floor Townhouse. Have to disconnect and move stackable washing machine and gas dryer. Install drip pan. Major pain in the A and tight utility area ! $2045


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## HonestPlumb

Plus it is an hour, one way !


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## dhal22

As long as you in and out in 4-5 hours that price is good.


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## HonestPlumb

dahl22- Shop and back to shop-6 hrs. Had to hump it to 2nd floor -TownHouse. Disconnect WM and gas dryer and reconnect. Went through 2 shirts I sweat so much !!
Let anyone tell us we don't work hard !!! I love the ones that think the check they give us goes right in our pocket!! If I had the money the insurance companies stole from me when I had 6 guys and the IRS contributions, I would have retired 10 years ago at 46 !! Glad I gave the price I did.


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## HonestPlumb

*Importance of Everything !*



Absaroka Joe said:


> Honest Plumb, workers comp and state bonding is of absolutely no material importance to a homeowner. Liability insurance is important. Licensing is the concern of the state and Licensee not a homeowner. Assuming a WH (or any plumbing work) is being replaced properly because someone somewhere within the company has a master license is a fools game and a mistake often made. I won't beging to talk about the usefullness of inspections in most places.


Absaroka Joe- I differ with you as to the importance of Licensing, State Bonding, Workers Comp from a homeowners prospective. Considering the plumber is dealing with gas, drinking water, sewer gas(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewer_gas#cite_note-1Sewer gases may include hydrogen sulfide, ammonia, methane, carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide, and nitrogen oxides. Improper disposal of petroleum products such as gasoline and mineral spirits contribute to sewer gas hazards. Sewer gases are of concern due to their odor, health effects, and potential for creating fire or explosion) (Paste and Copy) Wouldn't any intelligent person be concerned with the safety of their family ? Do all the things listed in some way pertain to having the proper knowledge that you can attain the license from the state that proves you posses the knowledge of protecting their family as opposed to someone who is unlicensed doing the work ? As is being Bonded and having Workmans Comp protect them from a different prospective, such as lawsuit. Their have been cases where the General Contractor never checked to see if the sub contractor he hired had Workers Comp Insurance. One of the subs was severely injured and sewed not only the General Contractor but the home owner as well !! Especially if there were some form of a negligent situation like loose or broken slate stairway leading to the front door or a child's toy on the stairs from the second floor. Lawyers love that kind of thing ! As some informed homeowners that I was subbed by the General Contractor, the home owner requested exactly that all subs have the proper licensing and insurances and documentation necessary. All be it they are all not that informed until they call their lawyer because a sub was injured on their property !


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## paytheplumber

Good hustle!


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## srloren

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> if its electric, $350 in materials leaves $300 left for a job that takes less than 2 hours with the drive.


You are making some assumptions here... how big is your service area? One area that many plumbers fail in is keeping their truck stocked and organized so you can get the tools and parts you need quickly. You have to do it if you are going to compete today. Not taking anything away from knowledge and experience. That helps too.


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## Nathan901

The thing that sucks is that 650-750 is the flat rate price you get when you call any competitors in my area. I wish we could all just get together and raise that up. 

The local Home Depot quotes 1100-1300 for standard residential heaters.


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## Coolcanuck

We're up to 1150 now, after tank increases


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## dhal22

We're at $1350 but I'm thinking a bit more is in order.


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## Green Country

Nathan901 said:


> The thing that sucks is that 650-750 is the flat rate price you get when you call any competitors in my area. I wish we could all just get together and raise that up.
> 
> The local Home Depot quotes 1100-1300 for standard residential heaters.


If the hacks working for home depot can charge that much, why can't you?


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## Green Country

I'm at 850-1200 depending on extras needed. Most end up about 925


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## Herk

Frank Blau used to say that if anyone thought they could make it in the plumbing business for less than a hundred dollars an hour, he'd like to see their books. But that was more than 20 years ago!

In my area, water heaters are often loaded with maybe 100 lbs. of lime and in basements. They are never in garages. So those who say they can swap one out in an hour or less must not be talking about labyrinthine cellars. 

My WH prices vary depending on whether the old one is already drained, if they want to haul it away themselves, if it's on the main floor, and even if it's a long dolly ride from the truck to the house. Yes, I've worked on houses that were 'way back off the road and no driveway.


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## Plumber1970

A company I used to work for was charging $2000 for 40gal atmospheric without code updates or permit fee. Was thrown out of too many homes for that price. But that's what the boss wanted to charge


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## mrjasontgreek

At home I could easily install a 40 gallon electric heater for under $700. Up here I can't do it for less than $1100

At home you get scrap money for the old ones, up here it costs $50 to get rid of them. The tanks cost more, they usually fail within the warranty period, which they put a hefty warranty charge on the new tanks from the supplier, and most of the houses up here are trailers. So it's at least a half day job to cut out all the piping or remove part of the wall to get the thing swapped out


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## Workhorseplmg

The vast majority of 40 or 50 gal electrics fall between 5-6 hundred. That's installing a rheem tank on the main floor, hauling off the old one. I live in a small town and my service area is 30 miles or so normally. I will go farther if I have time available.


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## dhal22

If you are installing a 50 elec for $500-$600 the customers owe you a big thank you for leaving some of your money in their pocket. What a deal that is.


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## Workhorseplmg

I'm not worried about it, I make very good money and stay busier year round than 2 men can handle.


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## GREENPLUM

500-600 please post some pic of your installs, 

For that price I'd hire you to do my installs if your finished work is up to par


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## GREENPLUM

Workhorseplmg said:


> I'm not worried about it, I make very good money and stay busier year round than 2 men can handle.


Your busy cause your cheeep, I couldn't make it with pricing that low.

What happens if you break a leg? Gonna have enough money to pay your bills?


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## plumberkc

Workhorseplmg said:


> I'm not worried about it, I make very good money and stay busier year round than 2 men can handle.


Your idea of "very good money" is different than most real plumbers. You'll continue to do the work of two men because there is now way you could afford health insurance for a decent employee. 

At least you'll qualify for subsidized healthcare since your income is so low.


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## Workhorseplmg

GREENPLUM said:


> Your busy cause your cheeep, I couldn't make it with pricing that low. What happens if you break a leg? Gonna have enough money to pay your bills?


I actually broke my foot christmas before last and yes everything was fine


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## Workhorseplmg

plumberkc said:


> Your idea of "very good money" is different than most real plumbers. You'll continue to do the work of two men because there is now way you could afford health insurance for a decent employee. At least you'll qualify for subsidized healthcare since your income is so low.


I make 3 times the median income for my area.


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## Workhorseplmg

GREENPLUM said:


> 500-600 please post some pic of your installs, For that price I'd hire you to do my installs if your finished work is up to par


Next electric install I'll take a pic, it may be a month because we are busy with new construction.


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## Workhorseplmg

For everyone's information, plumbing prices across the country vary greatly. Where I live the national chain of roto rooter will replace a sewer line 80' long for 2k. The cost of living here would be comparable to half that of a big city or Canada for that matter.


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## Green Country

Workhorseplmg said:


> For everyone's information, plumbing prices across the country vary greatly. Where I live the national chain of roto rooter will replace a sewer line 80' long for 2k. The cost of living here would be comparable to half that of a big city or Canada for that matter.


Where do you live?


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## dhal22

Workhorseplmg said:


> For everyone's information, plumbing prices across the country vary greatly. Where I live the national chain of roto rooter will replace a sewer line 80' long for 2k. The cost of living here would be comparable to half that of a big city or Canada for that matter.


Correct, I've seen muffler pipe wired under a kitchen sink dumping water outside the house. There are areas where the money just isn't there.


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## Workhorseplmg

I live in rural Arkansas.


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