# How to make a better forum!



## pcplumber (Feb 10, 2009)

I moved this topic from the other thread. The purpose of the post was to talk about why I think Ron feels the way he does, or why I think he has issues about being a moderator.

When I compare the way plumbers talk about each other in forums, in their advertising, in supply houses, and to their customers. I see this happening only with plumbers, with a very high percent of plumbers, and I always wondered why. Every time I go to a supply house, since I started my business 36 years ago, plumbers made derogatory comments about my company like:

"I heard about your company. You are the guys who run the soft copper on the ground underneath houses."

If we ever ran copper on the ground I don't know where, but I wonder what phenomena causes these types of statements. Why does almost every plumber think he is better than every other plumber, does better work, and thinks he is more honest? Why do I keep reading about one plumber calling another plumber a hack?

The first thing this forum needs is a new set of rules. Forums are a place where people are supposed to share experiences, ideas, and we should assume we are talking about plumbing and business. Only posts with positive thoughts and ideas should be allowed in the business threads. Any member who belittles or bashes another plumber should be banned immediately. All small talk should be in the chat room or miscellaneous threads.

This is how I think a moderator's duties should work. The moderator's first duty is to keep order and make sure members adhere to the rules. Any member who bashes another plumber should be banned immediately. The moderator should not warn the member in public, should not warn him at all, and should not tell members when, or why the member was banned because this goes beyond his duties and makes him look pompous.

I believe the moderators first duty is to keep order, second duty is to be a role model, and least important duty is to be a friend. You can be courteous and friendly, but you have a conflict when you are the moderator and you are taking sides in a heated debate. Your duty is to make sure members follow the rules and ban them regardless of whether or not you agree with their views. 

The moderator should never argue with a member. You should never argue, period. You are the same as the boss of a company. When we have a problem with an employee we don't argue. We discuss the issue in a private room and when the employee does not come to terms, we fire him, but we never do this publicly and we never discuss what transpired with other employees.

The forum needs a role model. Members follow your lead. As they say, "crap flows downhill and it starts at the top." If you write a sarcastic post to a DIY then all members think this is okay. If you argue with a member then all members think this is okay. As you may be aware one employee's mouth can poison and sabotage an entire business. I immediately terminate an employee who has a poisoned mouth and lacks respect. The same is true for this forum. We have a lot of poisoned mouths. About half the bushel contains bad apples. We can't put more apples into the bushel because we know they will spoil, so I would rather dump the bushel and start fresh. The quality of members is far more important than the number of members. 

I've been watching this forum for about two years and there are long periods when it is pathetic. I've seen weeks with almost no posts and months with no quality posts about business. I'm sure this has a lot to do with the belittling and bashing of members since I am sure many plumbers see this and will not join the forum, and many active members will not write a post in fear of being ridiculed and bashed.

NEW RULES

No member should be allowed to write a post unless he can substantiate his information with hard facts. As a moderator, ask for the facts, in private, and delete the post until facts are delivered. 

Zero tolerance for belittling or bashing members. No warning. Just ban the member.

Members can only write posts with positive thoughts and positive ideas. When a member writes a post, other members cannot bash the ideas. Members are only allowed to question the idea or thought.

If you are going to be a moderator and you want to be successful you have to say what you mean and mean what you say. You can't do this if you want to be everyone's friend. I would rather be a better boss than compromise my business by being your friend. Write your rules and apply them with no emotions, as this is your duty to keep order, make the forum grow with good members, and make it productive for all members.

As a moderator, I would not get emotional and would kick out my best friend before he insults me by making me look like a bad moderator. I don't want the moderator job and don't have the time.

I wrote this because I am concerned about Ron. We got off to a bumpy start, but I saw straight through to the other side of his glass head. He just needs a little wax, polish, effective ideas, and he'll be a great moderator.

pclplumber

P. S. I'm all for making an improved forum. I hope I am not the only member (maybe a half member). If you can add some productive and positive ideas, then I welcome them. If can only think of something sarcastic, lets practice my proposed rules. You can even send me a private nasty email and I won't get upset, but please don't lower your self-esteem and insult members in this forum by limiting your posts to senseless bashing.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I like the rules as they are. I also like the "feel" of the forum as it is. 

Over-moderation will lead to a short lived forum. Who is going to do all your proposed moderation? For free $$:blink:


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## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

Some of your facts are wrong. This forum is not two years old and is in it's infancy. What we are experiencing is growing pains as the forum grows and accomodates larger types of personalities.

Ron is having a bad time now; however, it's not for us to 'think' for him. When the time comes, he can speak for himself.

Some of your points are valid and it is up to Nathan (& moderators) to work it out. 

I've visited other forums and by far this is the best! :thumbup:


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## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

pcplumber said:


> I've been watching this forum for about two years and there are long periods when it is pathetic. I've seen weeks with almost no posts and months with no quality posts about business. I'm sure this has a lot to do with the belittling and bashing of members since I am sure many plumbers see this and will not join the forum, and many active members will not write a post in fear of being ridiculed and bashed.


:furious: Then why do you hang around? There must be something here that the other forums don't have or you would have no reason to lurk in the shadows.


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## super plumber (Oct 19, 2008)

I have no other forums to copare this one to. I agree that there is a lot of negativity here. On any project or subject you ask 10 plumbers their opinion and you will get 10 different responses. I am a smart ass and enjoy bashing DIY's, but also understand they are potential customers or know a potential customer. I have a buddy that is a member of a pay forum ($50.00 per month...kinda rich for me) and I would guess it is moderated differently but don't know that for sure. Just some random thoughts running through my hyper-active brain.


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## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

*bash i can't resist.*

Dear P C PLUMBER,

I realize as a general contractor in CA you would'nt understand how a real plumber thinks. That is one reason your proposed NEW rules wont work. Where do you work anyway?, BERKELY.....easy does it on the KOOLAID bro.


*" I'm sorry"*


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

I am on another forum that has nothing to do with plumbing. Right now there are a couple of newbies on there stirring up trouble. Let me tell you what they are doing and you all can figure it out from there.

1. They came in with an attitude they are going to save the members of the forum from their own stupidity. 

2. They tried to push their ideas on well established members of the forum without showing them any respect and while continually whining about how no one accepts their ideas. All of it is done in a condescending, pat-the-poor-little-offender-on-the-head manner.

3. They continually point out their own good points.

4. Then when a few forum members react in a predictable manner they start whining about how the forum is run, how it is moderated, etc. And then they once again offer all their "excellent" ideas on how to save the forum.

5. Some of their ideas are actually good. And a few people acknowledge that. But what most of the members miss is the big picture of what is going on. 

You know, it's just like a job site. Imagine if an apprentice showed up on your job site doing this kind of thing. Would any of you have any respect for him? Would there be a significant push back? On that other forum the guys making the trouble aren't "apprentices". But in the context of that forum they are. Like this... if a 55 year old man who was a doctor for 20 years began working for you as an apprentice... his age and experience means squat in the context of what I am talking about. There is a hierarchy in the plumbing world. You can start at the bottom and gain respect very fast. Or you can do like the guys I am talking about, try to force your way up the hierarchy... and just flat out irritate people.

Figure it out from there people...


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

pcplumber said:


> I moved this topic from the other thread. The purpose of the post was to talk about why I think Ron feels the way he does, or why I think he has issues about being a moderator.
> 
> When I compare the way plumbers talk about each other in forums, in their advertising, in supply houses, and to their customers. I see this happening only with plumbers, with a very high percent of plumbers, and I always wondered why. Every time I go to a supply house, since I started my business 36 years ago, plumbers made derogatory comments about my company like:
> 
> ...


Just establishing a record before it gets edited more (or deleted).


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

Your version of a forum has flaws. Don't post anything but happy thought?
Moderators not allowed to build relationships?
Mod has a glass head?
Only hard fact driven posts?

ATTICA!
ATTICA!

pcplumber, there is already a good set of rules in place here. However, you are more than welcome to set up your own forum if you like elsewhere. Other members have in the past, just a little hard to find them after a while.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Pcplumber, we are what we are. If you don't like it then you don't have to be here. I enjoy the stabs once in a while at the supply house and I sure don't mind them here. You're an individual, you know how you're running your business. If you take that sort of thing personal then your'e in the wrong business.
I vote to keep things just the way they are, no changes needed.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

This forum is fine the way it is. If you don't like it, you are free to leave.


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## pcplumber (Feb 10, 2009)

*So far, nodoby beat me to death*

So far, all the answers are great. I can't argue with you. Nobody beat me up too bad. And I can go to work today without thinking about a come-back. I expected a 'Thread Of Terror' by now. I'm having a barbecue at my shop today. You are all welcome to stop by after 3 pm and have a few carne asadas, steaks, hot dogs, lemonade, & sodas. Sorry, no alcohol. People tend to say bad things about the boss when they are tipsy.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

I Want Beer!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

pcplumber said:


> So far, all the answers are great. I can't argue with you. Nobody beat me up too bad. And I can go to work today without thinking about a come-back. I expected a 'Thread Of Terror' by now. I'm having a barbecue at my shop today. You are all welcome to stop by after 3 pm and have a few carne asadas, steaks, hot dogs, lemonade, & sodas. Sorry, no alcohol. People tend to say bad things about the boss when they are tipsy.


Have a good day.

BTW, ask yourself what that whooshing sound was.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

pcplumber said:


> When I compare the way plumbers talk about each other in forums, in their advertising, in supply houses, and to their customers. I see this happening only with plumbers, with a very high percent of plumbers, and I always wondered why. Every time I go to a supply house, since I started my business 36 years ago, plumbers made derogatory comments about my company like:
> 
> "I heard about your company. You are the guys who run the soft copper on the ground underneath houses."
> 
> If we ever ran copper on the ground I don't know where, but I wonder what phenomena causes these types of statements. Why does almost every plumber think he is better than every other plumber, does better work, and thinks he is more honest? Why do I keep reading about one plumber calling another plumber a hack?


If I ever heard this I would be far less concerned with rules of a forum, sharing business manuals & software, posting under multiple identities etc. I would be very interested in getting out in the field a little more often and seeing what exactly my guys in the field are doing qualitywise...:whistling2:

Just my $0.02...


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

para1 said:


> Dear P C PLUMBER,
> 
> I realize as a general contractor in CA you would'nt understand how a real plumber thinks. That is one reason your proposed NEW rules wont work. Where do you work anyway?, BERKELY.....easy does it on the KOOLAID bro.


 
There are a lot of us like Leonard who are plumbers first and have a GC license as a secondary license. It gives you a lot of latitude to do things you cannot do without a GC license. While I have never been to Leonard's shop I know those who have and he is what he says he is.

Mark


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

I'm new here and I like it the way it is as well.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

pcplumber said:


> So far, all the answers are great. I can't argue with you. Nobody beat me up too bad. And I can go to work today without thinking about a come-back. I expected a 'Thread Of Terror' by now. I'm having a barbecue at my shop today. You are all welcome to stop by after 3 pm and have a few carne asadas, steaks, hot dogs, lemonade, & sodas. Sorry, no alcohol. People tend to say bad things about the boss when they are tipsy.


I'm not trying to bash you, but the gut feeling I get from you is you enjoy the "threads of terror". Maybe not enjoy, but feed off of a little bit:whistling2:.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

pcplumber,
I had some time this afternoon to sit down and fully read your original post. After wading through it I have come to the conclusion that.....

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
You have entirely too much time on your hands to think about trivial crap:blink: Reading that novel felt very similar to reading the una-bomber manifesto. Lighten up dude. Go write a thesis on something that people care about. 

If you want new business topics. Hit the New Post button and let it fly. 
If you don't like somebodies posting style. Put em on your ignore list. 
Don't write a "How I would fix the Board" thread. 

Love,
ILPlumber


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## trick1 (Sep 18, 2008)

Love,
ILPlumber[/quote]


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Why in the world do I choose to eat or drink ANYTHING when I'm checking out this forum!!!!! It always ends up on the monitor or keyboard from spitting it out laughing!!!!!

Love,
ILPlumber......absolutely hilarious!!!!:laughing::laughing:


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I do not see anything wrong with the way it is right now, except, need to train the monkey a little better. JK on the monkey comment. :laughing:


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## pcplumber (Feb 10, 2009)

*I'm a little surprised*



Ron The Plumber said:


> I do not see anything wrong with the way it is right now, except, need to train the monkey a little better. JK on the monkey comment. :laughing:


This purpose of this thread was to help make this a better forum. It is not about myself. It is about making the forum a pleasant place and to eliminate members and not only the members who use it as a place for getting off on bashing other people. The posts regarding the methods of running my business, my integrity, and honesty were out-of-line and I would like to know how you are going to handle further attacks. I don't think I am the only member with this concern.

Since you appeared emotionally upset yesterday, I started this thread to open up some thought on how to get control so you don't go crazy dealing with issues. You need to be our fearless leader who is a role model, sets examples, make examples of members who abuse other members, rules with an iron fist, and someone who does this with logic than emotions. I think there is room for improvement in everything we do and you are welcome to come to my shop anytime and criticize my methods.


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## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

pcplumber said:


> This purpose of this thread was to help make this a better forum. It is not about myself. It is about making the forum a pleasant place for all members and not only the members who use it as a place for getting off on bashing other people. The posts regarding the methods of running my business, my integrity, and honesty were out-of-line and I would like to know how you are going to handle further attacks. I don't think I am the only member with this concern.
> 
> Since you appeared emotionally upset yesterday, I started this thread to give you some ideas on how to get control so you don't go crazy dealing with issues. You need to be our fearless leader who is a role model, sets examples, make examples of members who abuse other members, rules with an iron fist, and do this without emotions.


If you are not the only member with this concern, they should step forward and take it up with Nathan. Perhaps you are ultra sensitive when someone disagrees with your point of view and this forum isn't for you. I thought you decided this before and signed off for the last time. Then you started posting again and signed off a second time due to having to run three businesses. Can you see how the members may misunderstand you? You post one thing and do another - very confusing.:no:

I have stepped on some toes at times and when I get a slightly nasty retort I know I have offended someone. I PM the person and apologize for any misunderstanding. All of this is done without involving moderators. They have enough work with all the dingbats ignoring the sign on process.

Since Ron dedicates his time and energy for FREE, I personally feel it is irresponsible to suggest publicly that he do anything more than he is already doing.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

*Lets try this again.*

My answers are in Red




pcplumber said:


> I moved this topic from the other thread. The purpose of the post was to talk about why I think Ron feels the way he does, or why I think he has issues about being a moderator.
> 
> When I compare the way plumbers talk about each other in forums, in their advertising, in supply houses, and to their customers. I see this happening only with plumbers, with a very high percent of plumbers, and I always wondered why. Every time I go to a supply house, since I started my business 36 years ago, plumbers made derogatory comments about my company like:
> 
> ...



I hope I gave you my insights on what you had to say and offer.I'll post more later, right now I have to go to inlaws for dinner. Thanks for listening. Any errors be it spelling or wording will have to wait till I return.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

*This Forum*

Forgive me, as a casual observer with a few posts here and there, I like this format and the sarcasm,ribbing,jousting,etc. If I wanted to feel good about everything I did, I WOULDN'T BE HERE! Its nice to have a "feel" about a place and know that its not personal but just a matter of opinion.

I thought everyone was aware of the concept of this forum and the emotions it may flare, so WHAT. Are we not all adults with a right to express our opinions,thoughts etc. as long as it isn't profane. Since when did a group of professionals become so engrossed with other peoples feelings when its just WORK. I LIKE TO VENT. And since I try not to bring work home with me, this is it.

P.S. Thanks Ron,Bill,Nathan your doing a great job:thumbsup:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

A forum without the drama, how much fun would that be?

Can you imagine a forum where everyone got along?

Yes yes, I agree with you
Nice post, well said
Gee that was great, thanks for posting
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz.


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

There is a reason Ron and Bill are the moderators and certain others are not. 

pcplumber, they sell hosting and copies of this forum software all day long. Knock yourself out buddy. 

But don't peddle your control freak crap on here and expect a warm reception of your ideas. Again, feel free to implement them on your own forum.

Enough said.


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## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

I have seen you guys go at it hot and heavy at times. Just recently two of you went at it over Bio Clean. It ended really well with mutual respect being shown by both. Most of the time both parties back off before it gets really nasty.

When someone disagrees with you, you can debate back and forth as long as they are willing. As soon as they stop, we need to stop. If we keep antagonizing, we get what we deserve. So, for anyone feeling slighted - did you ask for it or bring it on yourself?

We all need humbling from time to time - me included. :innocent:


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

Seems to me that most members of this forum are on the same page. Imagine that.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I haven't read past paragraph 4 on PCP's first post but It sounds like where you are going with this is: We should a sit in a circle holding hands with maxi pads stuck on our heads and talk about our feelings.

Dude, get real. This is a forum for PLUMBERS. Plumbers will act like plumbers. Get over it or get out. What part of Cali are you from? Must be San Francisco.......

How was that for happy lovey dovey time?


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Perhaps it is a generational thing but I see an awful lot of chest thumping at times on this forum. We will never all agree on everything every time but we should all learn to at least listen to varying opinions. I've often said I learn more from those I disagree with than those I agree with because they make me think. What a boring life we would have if we only interacted with like-minded people.

Mark


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> Perhaps it is a generational thing but I see an awful lot of chest thumping at times on this forum. We will never all agree on everything every time but we should all learn to at least listen to varying opinions. I've often said I learn more from those I disagree with than those I agree with because they make me think. What a boring life we would have if we only interacted with like-minded people.
> 
> Mark


MARK, YOU AND I AGREE ON A LOT OF THINGS....AND DISAGREE ON EVEN MORE!!!:thumbsup:

You are one of my favorite people to disagree with. Because you are intelligent and you put up some damn good arguments. ANd I agree, I have learned alot over teh years from the people I argue with.:yes:


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

Protech said:


> I haven't read past paragraph 4 on PCP's first post but It sounds like where you are going with this is: We should a sit in a circle holding hands with maxi pads stuck on our heads and talk about our feelings.
> 
> Dude, get real. This is a forum for PLUMBERS. Plumbers will act like plumbers. Get over it or get out. What part of Cali are you from? Must be San Francisco.......
> 
> How was that for happy lovey dovey time?


Nah, it got worse. He wants a Stalin like purge of anyone who doesn't sing kumbayah.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

:laughing:



22rifle said:


> Nah, it got worse. He wants a Stalin like purge of anyone who doesn't sing kumbayah.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

uaplumber said:


> Seems to me that most members of this forum are on the same page. Imagine that.


Some ain't saying a whole lot, either.

I kinda miss the days when the drama was face-to-face at the bar and as the night wore on, tempers got meaner, tongues looser, and fists harder. We take it outside and end up all bloody and maybe in jail....boy howdy, those were the days...yes siree...

(well, maybe not :laughing


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

MAN!, my jaw got sore just reading that:yes:


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

pcplumber said:


> This purpose of this thread was to help make this a better forum. It is not about myself. It is about making the forum a pleasant place and to eliminate members and not only the members who use it as a place for getting off on bashing other people. The posts regarding the methods of running my business, my integrity, and honesty were out-of-line and I would like to know how you are going to handle further attacks. I don't think I am the only member with this concern.
> 
> Since you appeared emotionally upset yesterday, I started this thread to open up some thought on how to get control so you don't go crazy dealing with issues. You need to be our fearless leader who is a role model, sets examples, make examples of members who abuse other members, rules with an iron fist, and someone who does this with logic than emotions. I think there is room for improvement in everything we do and you are welcome to come to my shop anytime and criticize my methods.


pcplumber,

If you going to edit your prior post long after you post it, at least tell us, would like to know what you have to add to it or take away, hard to know what your saying.

I see you have been on here since I made my response to this comment, about your 1st post, do you have no comments on my extensive response, not stirring the pot here, just want to see if from what I had to say made sense to you that's all. 

This is not the pcplumber I know for CT, that one on there was always on top of what others had to say.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

My apologies pcplumber about your editing, I did not see the time lines between the edits. times were not that far apart.


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> My apologies pcplumber about your editing, I did not see the time lines between the edits. times were not that far apart.


Don't feel too bad. He has a reputation for heavy editing on other forums. Not your fault you are having to deal with it so don't kick yourself over it.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Not that it maters but in case you were not aware, as a moderator you should be able to see the edits. Just click on the last edited by whomever and it will show you all of the edits. That's also good to know for the person who does an edit.

Mark


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> Not that it maters but in case you were not aware, as a moderator you should be able to see the edits. Just click on the, last edited by whom, and it will show you all of the edits. That's also good to know for the person who does an edit.
> 
> Mark


Yes I knew this, but for one who edits just about every post he makes it gets really confusing, no one wants to try and decipher what was the changes, making one reread a post over and over to see it. 

On the joking side, wonder how many proofs he did on his works before he made he his final works. :laughing: How many edits on it before it looked good to him. :laughing:


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## pcplumber (Feb 10, 2009)

*Most of my edits are grammar corrections and.......*

a member said the thread was about Ron so I started a new thread. Unfortunately, for myself, I deleted the original post and should have copied and pasted it, so I was up until 4 a.m. re-writing the original post.

There are many times I will write an entire post, think about it and delete it when I think what I wrote is wrong, or I will read my post two or three times and make corrections to grammar, or add to or delete portions of paragraphs. Even when designing an advertisement, I will make changes and corrections for several days.

Since you have the ability to retrieve the original post, you have my permission to post it. The only difference was I had a few more paragraphs with my philosophy that every person is the best that we can be meaning you are the best plumber you can be, you are the best husband and father you can be. There is always someone better than you, but you are the best that you can be. This is a philosophy I use for myself when someone tries to belittle me, or I use it when I feel like I failed performing a task. This was written for Ron to express my opinion that he is the best he can be and this is to help him realize that he should not beat himself up for the way he was feeling.

I surprised that Nathan and the moderators are not jumping all over me, anyways, because I was guessing that my post should have been private, and I gave this some consideration and I thought what I had to say would open up some thoughts with all members. I think I am a little strange because I am the type of person who will help anyone, anywhere, even when everyone would stay very far away from some certain people. I'll stop a person abusing abusing a person in a mall, make them sit at a table, and give them a lecture telling them they will get more from their child by giving praise than beating them for their mistakes, and I will give many examples. Maybe I am crazy, but it makes me feel good to think that maybe that child will have a better life.

Overall, I am satisfied with the responses in this thread, I appreciate the respectful replies, and I see some gears turning.


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## pcplumber (Feb 10, 2009)

*I was very impressed and proud of all your answers and.....*



Ron The Plumber said:


> pcplumber,
> 
> If you going to edit your prior post long after you post it, at least tell us, would like to know what you have to add to it or take away, hard to know what your saying.
> 
> ...


I glanced through them and was going to tell you that I was impressed with your thoughts and effort.

I really think you are trying hard to be a better moderator and I appreciate your efforts.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

You talk about posting topics with substance yet you continue to ramble on...


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