# Extra special customer service



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

So I go to this mobile home leak call. The guy tells me that he has a leak when ever he turns the water on. I check it out and sure enough, he has at least 5 leaks where a rat has gnawed thru the pipe. I give him a quote of about $380 (not exact as I don't have the invoice in front of me) to fix 5 leaks. I also explain that there may be more but I have to fix these 1st 5 in order to pressurize the system to check for any other hidden ones. He says OK and signs for the work. 

His wife then tells me that she wants me to call her home warranty company to tell them what problem is and what it's going to cost fix so that they can get it covered. I explain that WE DO NOT WORK WITH HOME WARRANTY COMPANIES. She says that she knows that and she just wants me to call them so that they can be reimbursed for the repair. I explain to her that they are not going to cover a rat chew and that WE DON'T DEAL WITH HOME WARRANTY COMPANIES. She says she still wants me to talk to them. I tell her "Fine, YOU call them and when YOU finally get a live body on the phone I'll talk to them. They aren't going to cover a rat chew and I'm not going to lie and say it isn't from that". She says that she "isn't asking me to lie, but if they don't ask then you don't have to volunteer the information." I say "But the thing is, they will. I have delt with just about every home warranty company out there and they have a questionnaire they go down to try and shoot the claim down. They WILL specifically ask what the cause of failure is and I WILL tell them and they WILL NOT PAY." She says that she still want's me to try. I say "OK, I'll start working and you just hand me the phone when you get someone."

While in the middle of doing the repair she puts the phone up to my ear and the claims guy starts going down the questionnaire. Get's me name, company name, address, phone #, invoice #, total price. Now he starts asking for the price breakdown (like they always do) and I explain that we charge a flat rate and that I don't do break downs. He tells me that they won't process the claim without it. I tell him that's not my problem (homeowner doesn't like that). He then asks me about the warranty and I give him my labor warranty and tell him that on repairs the materials are warranted according to the manufacturer's terms and specifications. I tell him that I think it's 25 years but I don't have all the details of that warranty in front of me. He tells me that again, he will not be able to process the claim without that info. I tell him that again, that's not my problem and give him the name of the product and he can look it up on the web if he's that interested. He then starts asking me for each individual part that I'll be installing and want's the part #'s to go with them. I burst out :laughing: and start listing the parts 1 by 1. He says that he still needs the part #'s. I again refer him to google (noticing a pattern yet?). At one point I tell them "fine, I'll stop what I'm doing and charge you $91/hr to look up all of these serial #s and the manufacturers warranty. They didn't like that ether.

At this point both home owners are furious that I will not jump thru the warranty companies hoops (even though it's all a waste of time anyway).
Hubby proceeds to tell me that I'm "a cocky little sh!t" and that he's calling my supervisor. I tell him I'm the owner so that's another big time waster. He says he doesn't believe me and he's calling anyway. I tell him "knock yourself out, I've got work to do." He yaks in my office manager's ear for about 10 minutes calling me names and such while I work 6 feet away. 

I've now completed the contracted repairs and turn the water on and find 2 more rat chews. He is telling me all about how I'll never work in this trailer park again and that I'm going to go out of business etc etc while I'm doing this check. It's now 6:30pm. I tell him that he has 2 additional leaks and that it will be an extra charge to fix those 2. I will need to run his card and close out this 1st invoice before I'll start a new invoice for this additional work. I run his card and get all my signatures. He goes back inside (thinking that I'm going to give him a price to fix the last 2 leaks and then do so). I toss my tool back in the truck and ride out to my next paying customer (who was much nicer, and was treated with great care). As I'm rolling out I give home base the word that we will not be servicing this customer anymore and that it is not mandatory that they even entertain conversations with them at this point.

They call at about 6:45-7pm wondering where I am and they were notified that "We have completed the work that we were contracted to do." and that "The owner is no longer interested in doing business with you any longer. Please call someone else."

The moral of this story? Don't mess with the plumber. Especially not when it's the end of the day and you are without water and you live out in the middle of no where.:thumbup:

The end.

P.S. They guy called back and tried to say that I couldn't even know that it was from a rat chew or not. You tell me.......


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

:laughing:
:laughing:
:laughing:

I love it.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

So thats one of the Pro's of having pex? Rodents are able to water themselves.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> So thats one of the Pro's of having pex? Rodents are able to water themselves.


Can you imagine what a Chicago rat would do to that stuff?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I hear that they get as big as capybaras up there.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech said:


> I hear that they get as big as capybaras up there.



I threw a boot at a Chicago rat once, it threw it back, and walked away pulling a garbage can.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

> "The owner is no longer interested in doing business with you any longer. Please call someone else."


It is sad when you have to go this far. But I agree 100% with your decision. I have done the same for a few.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Update:

Son just called and said they are going to debate the charges.

Me: I've got all my signatures. I've got pictures. Knock your self out :sleep1:<click>


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Can you imagine what a Chicago rat would do to that stuff?


I hear they floss with it . . . :blink:

Pro: I dunno how I would've handled that one but generally I tell them that if their house has a trailer hitch on it then p'raps they should call a mechanic. :jester: IOW I wouldn't have been there in the first place.
Glad to hear you got paid for your aggravation!


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

They need to understand that they have no rite to treat people that way and that there is a price for treating people poorly that are just doing their job. In this case another day without water. As for can you prove it was a Rat? nope.... maybe it was a mouse. :laughing: it was a chew hole thats for sure.:yes:


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## robthaplumber (Jan 27, 2010)

Ha Ha Ha !!! Thats Good Stuff. Water Your Pets Next Time!!! Don't Piss Off The Plumber Either.


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## AndersenPlumbing (Jan 23, 2010)

Protech said:


> He is telling me all about how I'll never work in this trailer park again


I would have asked if that is a threat or promise....Hopefully the latter


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Another reason way time and material is a better system. Unless you like a pissing contest.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> Another reason way time and material is a better system. Unless you like a pissing contest.


I fail to understand your point? I charge some jobs based on T&M and others I give a flat contract price. If the customer is a jerk, it doesn't matter how you charge, they'll find a way to complain either way.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

t/m wouldn't have made any difference


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*I think its a full moon night.....*



Protech said:


> Update:
> 
> Son just called and said they are going to debate the charges.
> 
> Me: I've got all my signatures. I've got pictures. Knock your self out :sleep1:<click>


I have gotten a bunch of wierd calls today, each more squirrley than the last one... its got to be a full moon night.... I am gonna take the phone off the hook before I go to bed...


I would have walked out when they asked me to lie...

then you are trying to deal with a warranty co that really dont want you there inthe first place...


when they tell me its a trailer, I tell them I dont work on mobile homes.....

you are lucky that they got a master card....

but now you got to fight them...

good luck.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

no, no fighting. I got paid and they got a lesson.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> no, no fighting. I got paid and they got a lesson.


 Not saying they will but if they paid by credit card they have I think 60 days to contest the charges. I know you have a signed invoice but I think the credit card agreements state the credit card company has the final say so in all matters. Here an example: Cusomer signs and pays that the work was done proper....well a week later the shiot blows apart and they call you.......they claim they couldn't get you on the phone and call another plumber to come out and write them an invoice for the same repair you made.......they submit that to the credit card company as proof. Your toast.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Do you even take credit cards TM?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> Do you even take credit cards TM?


 I'm the other side of the equation.....I own credit cards and have "charged back before" I got my money back too. To answer your question NO and thats why.....they run YOU.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I didn't think so. Thank you for telling me about the finer details of the agreement that I have with visa, master card, american express, and discover. Apparently your vast knowledge extends even to documents that you have never seen.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

"I'm going to debate the charges on my card" is right there with "I'm calling the BBB".


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> I didn't think so. Thank you for telling me about the finer details of the agreement that I have with visa, master card, american express, and discover. Apparently your vast knowledge extends even to documents that you have never seen.


 Nevermind the cedit card,but I know Visa will back me 100% if I have a problem......sombodys just gonna make a leak happen for you one day after you leave.....wait a few days and call you asking for your insurance companies phone number. Not a damn thing you can do about it,if they want to get you. If you piss sombody off....never make the mistake of thinking its over just because you got paid,its just not that simple.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

That leak would be a GL claim and they would most likely be shot down due to the lack of proof not that it would effect me ether way.



TheMaster said:


> Nevermind the cedit card,but I know Visa will back me 100% if I have a problem......sombodys just gonna make a leak happen for you one day after you leave.....wait a few days and call you asking for your insurance companies phone number. Not a damn thing you can do about it,if they want to get you. If you piss sombody off....never make the mistake of thinking its over just because you got paid,its just not that simple.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> "I'm going to debate the charges on my card" is right there with "I'm calling the BBB".


 Its alot different. People do it all the time and get their money back. Noland company had it done to them by a guy who ordered a custom shower door......he picked it up and went home and half ass installed it then complained to his credit card company because they wouldn't take it back.....the A-hole went up to Noland co and dropped the old shower door on the dock...took a pic of it and drove off.....Noland lost their money and had to give it back to american express. Thats the facts.......I know because i knew everyone that worked there and tried to use an american express card there and they didn't take it anymore.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> That leak would be a GL claim and they would most likely be shot down due to the lack of proof not that it would effect me ether way.


nevermind that job.....how bout this job. You go to a house and replace a ballcock. alls good. The crook goes in and loosens the ballcock nut alittle and lets it flood for a few days.........game over your insurance is paying. maybe it would have been wise to do what they ask once your in over your head.....dont piss them off.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> That leak would be a GL claim and they would most likely be shot down due to the lack of proof not that it would effect me ether way.


Exactly it would be a general liability claim. Nevermind a few hundred on a credit card,thats peanuts to what a Good general contractor and come up with on some water damage. Insurance companies dont give you the option to fight it in court either.....they take in both partys sides of the story and make a decision......you dont even get to go back and see the damage for yourself personally if the other party doesn't want you back to their house.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*good point THE Master...*



TheMaster said:


> nevermind that job.....how bout this job. You go to a house and replace a ballcock. alls good. The crook goes in and loosens the ballcock nut alittle and lets it flood for a few days.........game over your insurance is paying. maybe it would have been wise to do what they ask once your in over your head.....dont piss them off.


you make a very valid point there ....
If you make them mad at you, they can screw you much, much worse than you can screw them...

I have learned its better to just give them back their money than have a pissing contest with evil skum losers......and move on.

especially when they already asked you to lie for them, they will surely lie to their insurance company or Master Card against you???


I always pay my bills on master Card for this very reason.... you have 60 days to contest the bill....

I have paid for my 6,000 roof on master Card for that reason..... they cant head to the hills with my money for 60 days, if they screw up the job, I have them by the balls for 60 days..

you might as well throw in the towell now
instead of fighting with them.

give them back their money and move on....

Their is a 99% chance that master card will take their side.....


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> you make a very valid point there ....
> If you make them mad at you, they can screw you much, much worse than you can screw them...
> 
> I have learned its better to just give them back their money than have a pissing contest with evil skum losers......and move on.
> ...


Any customer thats suggests me lie about anything is a red flag and I dont work for them....even if they hint to it. If I'm already in bed with them I try to charm my way out of it.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

A lady called unhappy a couple months ago. She was unhappy about the price she paid for us to install an outside clean out and said it didn't solve her problem. She had no access to her drain and I told her she needed a clean out because we thought she had a simple, partial, blockage somewhere between the house and septic but that we would not be able to access it from her roof and that if we had to pull a toilet it would cost more and she would be faced with having sewer equipment drug through her house for this instance and every other instance in the future without an outside clean out. She agreed, signed and we scheduled it for the next day. The next day I tested everything again just to be sure. Just as we were about to put a shovel in the ground we discovered water seeping up through the ground. I stop everything, go back in the house, explain to the lady that it seems to be a septic issue after all, explain that although the clean out is still a very good idea for future use it WILL NOT solve this problem and that she needs to call a septic company for that. I offer to tear up her signed service request since we will not be able to help her with her immediate problem but she says "no, lets go ahead and do it". So we go ahead and install it, clean the line real well leading to the tank, collect and we are on our way. She must not have done anything I guess about the septic because about 3 months after that we get a call from her, very upset, because she still has the same problem and not only that but she "found out that we grossly overcharged her". I asked her how she came to that conclusion and she said that "the other plumber told her that it shouldn't have cost more than $150.00 and I expect a refund" Well I knew she was out of her mind but I was out in the field and told her I would call her back after I had a chance to review her ticket. Got back to the office and everything was perfectly clear on the invoice. Called her back and explained that we had done everything we had promised plus some other things that she had not been charged for, that we had explained very clearly to her that the clean out would not solve her problem and had offered to tear up her signed service request, she had elected to proceed and therefore we would not refund her money. I told her I didn't know what plumbing company she had been talking to but that even the handymen wouldn't hand dig a 3' hole in the ground underneath a large holly bush and install a clean out for $150.00. She said she would be calling the BBB and I told her to do whatever she felt she needed to do but that we had all of our paper work in order, had honored our contract, and would be more than happy to discuss it with the BBB.

We haven't heard from the BBB or her since.


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## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

I once heard a story about a customer who removed one of the tank to bowl bolts on a new toilet and left off the rubber washers on 1 side and went on vacation,everyone knows the rest of story the tank was overtightened on the side without rubber washers and split ,it was upstairs toilet,and fire dept turned water off at street.When HO got home, his home was ruined, it was an upstairs toilet.For some reason the ho was pissed at plumber and got over on him,I knew the guy(plumber) and could not see him leaving off rubber buffer washers on a new toilet install ,anyone watch ghostbusters?


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Oh yeah, I say the money belongs to Protech and there is no legitimate reason in the world for him to consider giving it back. 

Take this line of logic to a bigger scale, that is the logic that says "give in to the wicked behavior of others because if you don't they might act more wickedly". What if that is how we dealt with the people in the world who hate us and want to kill every last one of us.

Now take this logic down to a much smaller scale, to the school yard bully. Let's let him have whatever he wants so that he won't bother us anymore today. I'll give him my lunch money so he won't beat me up today, and tomorrow I will do the same thing again.

These are dishonest, wicked people. They said "ok, make the repair" but get mad and don't want to pay when Pro doesn't lie for them or jump through a bunch of hoops for their warranty company and this after he told them repeatedly that he does not deal with warranty companies. Now they want to threaten him and take their money back. They received exactly what they were promised plus more in that he spoke to the warranty company even after he said he wouldn't. Now he's supposed to give the bullies back their money because they threaten him? NEVER!!!

The only fruit that appeasement EVER produces is oppression.

If they press the issue and his insurance company wants to buy them off that is their business but I would not give the money back, not when everything was so perfectly clear.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

smellslike$tome said:


> Oh yeah, I say the money belongs to Protech and there is no legitimate reason in the world for him to consider giving it back.
> 
> Take this line of logic to a bigger scale, that is the logic that says "give in to the wicked behavior of others because if you don't they might act more wickedly". What if that is how we dealt with the people in the world who hate us and want to kill every last one of us.
> 
> ...


 I was being hypothetical about the insurance thing smells. Thers no insurance involved. I agree he shouldn't give the money back either,he worked and earned it fair and square. What I'm saying is even tho all thats true and credit card company could still give them their money back and take it from you. I know of a case 1st hand where it happened. It depends alot of the relationship between the your customer and the credit card co. The supply house I'm talking about quit taking american express after that.


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## Nevada Plumber (Jan 3, 2009)

Sure the homeowners could try and make life difficult for Protech, but he shouldn't lose any sleep over it. If he has his pictures and signed documents, he will be fine.

Any customer could flood there own house and try and blame any one of us. What are we supposed to do? Not answer the phone anymore? Do whatever any customer wants, no matter how much we know it's wrong? I don't think so.

For the record, I wouldn't have done the second repair either. They contracted for the first repair and it sounds like it was done correctly. That is Protech's money. I'm sure this isn't the first angry customer he has had, and it probably won't be his last. You can't please everybody, and this is a good example of that.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Nevada Plumber said:


> Sure the homeowners could try and make life difficult for Protech, but he shouldn't lose any sleep over it. If he has his pictures and signed documents, he will be fine.
> 
> Any customer could flood there own house and try and blame any one of us. What are we supposed to do? Not answer the phone anymore? Do whatever any customer wants, no matter how much we know it's wrong? I don't think so.
> 
> For the record, I wouldn't have done the second repair either. They contracted for the first repair and it sounds like it was done correctly. That is Protech's money. I'm sure this isn't the first angry customer he has had, and it probably won't be his last. You can't please everybody, and this is a good example of that.


I agree but you dont continue to play after you know they are crooks and wanted you to lie. I agree any customer could claim we caused a flood but the customer has already proved they are crooks by wanting you to lie.....if you dont lie for them they will get sombody to lie on YOU.....some of them have the attitude that sombodys paying and its not gonna be them. I've met a few of these kind.....becareful as they are out there.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I was being hypothetical about the insurance thing smells. Thers no insurance involved. I agree he shouldn't give the money back either,he worked and earned it fair and square. What I'm saying is even tho all thats true and credit card company could still give them their money back and take it from you. I know of a case 1st hand where it happened. It depends alot of the relationship between the your customer and the credit card co. The supply house I'm talking about quit taking american express after that.


I'm not disputing what you say because I don't know for sure but that would be an extreme outrage if a cc company could actually access my checking account for any reason other than to make a deposit. I am not at all sure of the legality of that. As far as I know, I have no direct relationship with the cc companies to begin with. All of my transactions go through a processing company. So in order for Visa or MC to take money from my account they would have to go through the processing company who I do not think has authority to take anything from my account except for the monthly fees that are due.

I will be calling my processing company next week though to clarify.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*best to walk away*



TheMaster said:


> I agree but you dont continue to play after you know they are crooks and wanted you to lie. I agree any customer could claim we caused a flood but the customer has already proved they are crooks by wanting you to lie.....if you dont lie for them they will get sombody to lie on YOU.....some of them have the attitude that sombodys paying and its not gonna be them. I've met a few of these kind.....becareful as they are out there.


I had an issue with a customer last summer
and just knew in my bones to walk away.

I had processed their master card for 550
and then all hell broke loose....

he was a lawyer, and they had no intention of paying me anything and were so vile and nasty that they actually sabatoged my work just to weasel out of the bill.

they damaged the drain pan on a 75 gallon heater and then expected me to come back out and install a new pan....:no:..

basically it got so bad that they accused me f being anti-sematic and were gonna call the 
local jewish community center on me.....

she even called me a "dirty german" 
whatever that meant.....,  
it actually went that far on the phone.
I just held my toung and laughed at her,,,....

I told them to send me whatever they felt in their hearts would be
the fair Christian way to settle this, 
and then give the rest to their church....:laughing:

Of course , I never saw a dime , 

but I probably saved mysellf a ton of 
greif just walking away from it... 


dunbar had told me a trick to pull on nasty folks 
you bombard them with 
a ton of magazine subscriptions in the mail,,,,

I was tempted....


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

:thumbup:



smellslike$tome said:


> Oh yeah, I say the money belongs to Protech and there is no legitimate reason in the world for him to consider giving it back.
> 
> Take this line of logic to a bigger scale, that is the logic that says "give in to the wicked behavior of others because if you don't they might act more wickedly". What if that is how we dealt with the people in the world who hate us and want to kill every last one of us.
> 
> ...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

The burden of proof would be theirs in a court of law. I would also make them fully aware that insurance fraud is a felony in FL and that I can prove that they tempered/sabotaged the ballcock.



TheMaster said:


> nevermind that job.....how bout this job. You go to a house and replace a ballcock. alls good. The crook goes in and loosens the ballcock nut alittle and lets it flood for a few days.........game over your insurance is paying. maybe it would have been wise to do what they ask once your in over your head.....dont piss them off.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I could simply drop my GL company or advise them that I will not be paying any deductible if they choose to take it laying down.

I could also sue for fraudulent defamation of character.



TheMaster said:


> Exactly it would be a general liability claim. Nevermind a few hundred on a credit card,thats peanuts to what a Good general contractor and come up with on some water damage. Insurance companies dont give you the option to fight it in court either.....they take in both partys sides of the story and make a decision......you dont even get to go back and see the damage for yourself personally if the other party doesn't want you back to their house.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Oh yes they can take the money back :yes: through a chargeback. Its been a long time since I accepted CC's so I don't remember if they can actually deduct from your checking account (although I think so) but they can damn sure deduct from your next deposit:yes: Don't fool yourself into believing all is fair in the world of merchant services, those bass terds will roll over like a hound dog to shut up a squealing customer.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

My experience has ben different. If I have my sigs there is nothing they can do. They make thousands of dollars a year from me. I doubt they would cut that long revenue stream for $400 when they aren't even legally obligated to do so.

I have thoroughly reviewed my contract with my CC merchant and talked with them several times about there policies on backcharging. I know my business and no one on the site is going to tell me I don't know what's up.

If what you say is true, then let me ask you somthing, why haven't I been back charged yet? Ever? In fact, I actually went to court on a job when I was paid with a CC. They stopped payment on a check for the final payment, but they couldn't get the 50% that they had put down on the CC back. Please explain that one .

edit/addition: I did not even get a call from my cc card merchant on that one. They admitted in court that they debated the charges and the CC would not do it because they had admitted that they signed for it to them. I never even recieved a call for my side of the story. They were shot down right over the phone by the CC company.



Piperat said:


> Oh yes they can take the money back :yes: through a chargeback. Its been a long time since I accepted CC's so I don't remember if they can actually deduct from your checking account (although I think so) but they can damn sure deduct from your next deposit:yes: Don't fool yourself into believing all is fair in the world of merchant services, those bass terds will roll over like a hound dog to shut up a squealing customer.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Dude I am not saying you don't know whats up. I am just saying the CC companies have a history of rolling over like a dog. The best thing you can do is document everything just like you have but thats not always enough is all I'm saying. Depends on the fabricating skill of the complainer.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*let us know how it turns out*



Piperat said:


> Dude I am not saying you don't know whats up. I am just saying the CC companies have a history of rolling over like a dog. The best thing you can do is document everything just like you have but thats not always enough is all I'm saying. Depends on the fabricating skill of the complainer.


It all depends on the fabricating skills of the complainer.....


Protech no one is telling you your business.
perhaps you are right and it all goes away
and they dont try to do a thing......


Please let me know how this all 
 turns out in a few weeks.

good luck

.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> I could simply drop my GL company or advise them that I will not be paying any deductible if they choose to take it laying down.
> 
> I could also sue for fraudulent defamation of character.


 I dont know what kinda GL insurance you have but most dont have a deductible and you cant sue sombody for defamation because they lied and won a lawsuit against you:laughing: Infact how do you plan to prove it when your not even allowed to see the damaage in person. Heres how it can go protech. Pipe you installed leaks,owner doesn't call you he calls a G.C that specializes in insurance work. The G.C comes out and takes pictures calls a water extraction company and a plumber to repair the pipe. All of the above is on a team against you. The homeowner,the G.C.,the extraction company,new plumber are all on a team. By the time you find out about the leak .....nothings left to look at but the damamge,repaired pipe and the pictures. G.C sends your insurance a bill for 7 grand.........they pay without hesitation.....because all they really have on their side is you saying yada yada yada....that's not good enough,nothing will good enough. Insurance co is not gonna go to court over 7 grand and even if they did they would lose and they know it so they pay. Seen it 100 times.
Think of he biggest G.C. in your area...well connected and respected in the city.....Now picture that guy standing in court saying."His pipe blew apart and heres the pictures of it and here are the pictures of the rest of the damage the water caused" What are you gonna do? Show pics of the original repair? What good would that do ya? They even acknowledged it held for a few weeks.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I'm not trying to bust balls here. I'm giving you real life experience and you dont hafta believe it if you dont want. Insurance fraud happens daily by homeowners....thats why when you get that funny feeling that the customer is a crook or asks you to lie or whatever....to get the F out of there and be nice as you can be while doing it. Now if you haven't done any work for them then you can get away with being alittle more harsh,but even that is not a smart thing to do. The best thing is to be polite and just leave. I'm not trying to fight with you but I think your smarter than what your putting on....you know the customer has the upper hand in the long run.
Not that I've followed my own advice,I've done stupid things before a few times i was made to regret it.....by a smartass customer and a well known G.C. I'm telling you that combination can F you up no matter how prepared you think you are.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*My 15 grand kitchen floor replacement*

worked for a restoration co that went out 
and installed a new kitchen floor cause a pex line blew 
apart in the home..totally flooded the place.....

the home was a log cabin and the new kitchen floor was basically barn
 yard pine wood like you would see in a tavern... rustic and un-even 


my dumb ass empolyee went out there and repaired the wirsbo
 pipe then rolled the dishwasher over on the floor and installed it.
....instead of lifting it up or laying cardboard down for a path.......
I suppose it was an innocent mistake


the wheels of the dishwasher made a very slight indentation
 in the crapp[y pine wood that could not be repaired.

you had to look sideways in the light to see the marks...


but the lady went nuts , saw dollar signs$$$ and started , crying and balling like 
a baby , when my insurance co came out to look at it they could not believe it either, 
she threatend to get the adjusters fired, complained up the ladder of the insurance
 comapny about how rude their adjusters were to her... threatend to sue them for emotional distress

she was so hysterical and literally screaming like a nut case that they settled with her for 15k.....


of course the floor was never repaired cause their was 
really nothing wrong with it... she had throw rugs throughout the kitchen so it was a joke anyway....:laughing:


but she got 15 grand out of them and I had to look for another insurance comapny


those are the ones you always remember.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

The reason why I said T & M would have been better in this case is that no matter what happens or what futher request they make you are covered. You charge from the time you leave shop to the time you get back. More material they request the bill just keps going up. This type of billing always holds up in court. So pissed customer or not, the money is yours.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Signed invoices doesn't always matter with a chargeback depending on what the creditholder claims the reason for the chargeback is. Calling a credit card company about anything doesn't preserve your cardholder agreement rights. Heres an example of somthing I personally did once. Fact: I sent my G.F to wendys to get me a chicken samwitch:laughing: She gets her one too and we are picky......we order a certain way. They hand her the bag of food and its all F'd up. She checks it and tels them its wrong and they charged her for 3 samwitchs:laughing: instead of two and all three of them are made wrong anyway. The lady in the window tells her.."Thats what you ordered and thats what you got" and slams the window. She paid wiff my credit card:jester:..........My G.F is very sensitive and called me crying.........I got supa pissed because of the whole thing and i was hungry too thats a bad time to mess with me is when I'm hungry. I call the Wendys and ask for the manager and it happens to be the same biotch that waited on my G.F. I tell her "You F'd up and I'ma call my credit card company and dispute the charges,thanks for the free F'd up food Biotch" I did just that and the charges were removed. It took 30 minutes on the phone...but i didn;t hafta write a letter or anything....the credit card company was on my side from the time they answered the phone....I dunno why???? I coulda been making up the entire thing but i wasn't...jsut goes to show you they do whatever they want when it comes down to it.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't care what happened on your $10 transaction in a different state with a different vendor who has a different contract with their merchant. But thanks for the story just the same.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> I don't care what happened on your $10 transaction in a different state with a different vendor who has a different contract with their merchant. But thanks for the story just the same.


 $10 shiot it was atleast 15.00:laughing:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

My response to their BBB complaint.



Date:3/3/2010 11:30am


On 1/26/2010
I (Ken Zapen) responded to a leak call in Lake Wales Florida at the XXXX’s secondary residence in a camper trailer located in a trailer park. Mrs XXXXX immediately requested that I call her warranty company when I arrived so I could explain what the cause of the leak was so they would hopefully cover the charges. I very clearly explained to her and her husband that we don not work for/with insurance/warranty companies. Our contract to do any work is solely with her and she will be responsible for paying us at the time and location of service. We will not bill any 3rd parties nor are we affiliated with any third parties. I also explained that in my 10+ years of experience as a service plumber I have found that insurance/warranty companies typically do not pay for plumbing repairs on rat chewed water pipes. However, if it would make her happy, I would have no problem explaining to her insurance/warranty company what the repair bill that we are charging her would be for the repairs as well as the cause of failure. She would need to call them and wait on hold while I do the repairs and when she finally gets a live body on the phone I would talk to them. (time spent on claims approval is not factored into our cost structure but seeing as how it wouldn’t slow me down to much I decided to make a concession and talk to her company) I also advised her and her husband that rats typically chew pipes in many locations and there are other concealed locations that may be damaged as well but since there are so many chewed open lines the system can not be fully pressurized and there may be other locations that need repair. The quote she was given ($389.00) was to repair the 5 visible leaks that we knew of at that time. _Side note: You will note on the attached copy of the invoice that they were given a quote to repair 5 chewed pipes before the work was done and they authorized said work. After said work was completed they affirmed that it had been completed and paid for it. Pretty straight forward stuff._
After authorizing the work both verbally and in writing, I began to repair the 5 leaks while she sat on hold. At some point in the middle of the repair process she was able to get a representative on the phone and passed it to me and I began to answer his questions while I worked on the pipes. He started by asking pretty standard things like our company name, address, phone number, contractor license #. Pretty standard things and I had no problem answering any of those questions. He then asked what our time and materials rates are. I replied that we are not a “time and material” company and we do not bill that way. We give a flat rate price quote aka “contract price” to do a repair. He said that they will not approve the claim without an hourly rate. I replied that is not my concern as we do not have a contract with there company, we have a contract with the property owner. I also explained that what his company thinks of our pricing system is really non of my concern as we do not work for insurance/warranty companies. He got some what “Huffy” and then started asking about the warranty on the workmanship and materials. I told him we have a 30 day workmanship warranty on repairs (see invoice) and the material is warranted against defects by the manufacturer for 25 years. He then said that our 30 day workmanship warranty is not long enough to be approved and it would need to be 1 year. I then explained again that what his company wants to see in a warranty is really non of my concern as we do not have a contract with them and I’m simply on the phone with him at the homeowners request to tell him the repairs that we are doing and what we are charging for them to the homeowner. At no point was I (the plumbing contractor) agreeing to contract with his company nor was I requesting his approval for anything as I was already contracted by the home owner to make said repairs at said price, I’m just giving you some information on the repair at the request of the homeowner. He then asks me for the name and quantity of each and every fitting that I will be using. Start naming them. He then replies that he will need the warranty information and serial #s for each piece of equipment that I’m installing. I reply that I’m not willing to do that and even if I was it would take several hours for me to look all of that information up on the internet for each and every fitting. He again tell me that will result in him denying the claim. I again tell him that has nothing to do with me. At this point, Mr Barden yells out that he doesn’t like my attitude and that he is going to call my supervisor. I then explained that would be pointless as I’m the owner of the company. (he is very irate at this point and being very aggressive and combatetive. Almost to the point of being physically threatening. I never once raised my voice or acted in any such manner as he was)He says that he is going to pay me for the work but he will bad mouth my company to everyone he knows and he will never use my company again. I tell him that I’m sorry to hear that but that changes nothing. He begins hurling insults and wild accusations that I’m a “cocky little ****” (sorry for the profanity but those where his exact words) and that I’m “just taking advantage of snow birds”. I remain calm and ignore him. He stands over me rambling on and on while I continue to fix the 5 pipes. After the 5 pipes have been repaired I went out and turned the water back on. Two more leaks were found in hidden locations at that point. I went back inside after looking under the trailer and explained the situation that there were other leaks as I had originally suspected. I also explained that those leaks were not part of the original 5 that I was contracted to repair and they would be an additional charge to do so. I wrote the price quote on the invoice to do the additional 2 leak repairs (even though I had no intention of accepting any more work orders from these people). I explained that I would require payment for the work I had already done to close that invoice out before I could go any further (and yes, I was being deceptive, but only so I could get paid for the work I had already done). They gave a credit card as the method of payment for the 5 leak repairs. I ran the card for the contracted amount ($389.00). They signed the credit card authorization receipt. They also signed the invoice affirming that the contracted repairs had been completed. I gave them a copy of the credit card receipt as well as a copy of the invoice. I then took pictures of the work and left without any explanation. About 5 minutes after I left they called my office wanting to know where I went. My office manager explained that we are not going to fix the 2 additional leaks nor will we be accepting any other work requests from them and to call another plumbing contractor to fix the 2 leaks. She explained that this is America and we live in a free market. We are not required service anyone any customer that we don’t want to, just as they are free to request work from any contractor they choose. The owner has sole discretion as to whom he will accept work from and due to your actions and behavior he is no longer interested in adding you to our client base. Have a good evening. 

They are now on our “do not service” list.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

<couldn't fit it all in one post>


I also feel it is noteworthy that when I first came out I advised them that the insurance/warranty company would definitely ask what the cause of pipe failure was and that I was unwilling to say anything other than the truth (rat chewed the pipe) and that would definitely cause the claim to be denied. Her response was “well, you don’t have to volunteer the information. If they ask you what it was you can tell them. Just don’t volunteer it." The only reason I bring this up is because it speaks volumes about their character.

I also feel it noteworthy that the letter dated 2/1/2010 from your company in the “customer version” section she says:
“We hired this company to fix our water leaks, and he left us with no water charged us 389.00 and did not finish the work. We have pictures of the water running out of the home. He would not talk to out insurance co so they will not cover the work which was not completed. The young man Ken was so terrible to us, and to the insurance adjuster.”

I would now like to dissect this fraudulent defamation of character line by line.

1. “We hired this company to fix our water leaks, and he left us with no water charged us 389.00 and did not finish the work”

This is known as lying by omission . Each individual statement is true by itself. When you string them together without all the important context though it becomes a lie.

Yes, we were hired to fix there water leaks. But after completing the first set of repairs we were contracted to do, and realizing what kind of people we were dealing with, we opted out of accepting any further un-contracted work from them.

Yes, we left them with out water. But only because her husband was hurling insults at me the whole time. Would you enter into a second contract with someone after enduring 20 minutes of verbal abuse from them during the work while they stand over you?

Yes, we charged them $389 to fix 5 water leaks and they were quoted this up front. We fixed our 5 leaks and they confirmed that and paid us for it. The very last line makes it an out an out lie because we DID in fact fix the 5 leaks that we were contracted to do and they WILIINGLY PAID US FOR THE JOB DONE. They were also advised that the 2 additional leaks were not park of the original job contract and accepted the price quote that was given to fix those 2 additional leaks. It’s quite obvious when you look at the invoice that they are being deceptive (as they have been from the beginning of the service call).

2. “We have pictures of the water running out of the home.”

I have no doubt what so ever that they have pictures of water coming out of their house as I left them with the 2 originally unnoticed leaks that I was unwilling to repair due to there actions during the repair of the first 5. I also have pictures of the 5 repairs that I was contracted to do to prove that I did in fact complete my contract. When they leave out all the important details they make it sound like I took there money and ran which is far from the truth.

3. . “He would not talk to out insurance co so they will not cover the work which was not completed.”

Yet another lie. I did in fact, talk to there insurance/warranty (I’m not sure they realize the difference between the two either) adjuster. I just was unwilling to re-negotiate the terms and party as to which I was contracting to and they didn’t like that. I also feel it is not worthy that I had passed the phone back to the adjuster and she is the one who terminated the call. If there is any debate about the facts pertaining to the phone conversation, I’m sure we could get the insurance/warranty company to provide a copy of the phone conversation. The call was recorded and both she and I consented to it being recorded. If what she is alleging is in fact true a simple playback of said call should clear the matter up quite nicely, no?

4. “The young man Ken was so terrible to us, and to the insurance adjuster”

“Terrible” is a pretty wide and subjective term don’t you think? She (I believe intentionally so) uses that adjective in place of a more objective complaint so as to not be pinned down as misrepresenting the truth. For example, if I had been threatening, she would have said so. If I had been manipulative or somehow “shady” she would have used those terms. Instead she says “terrible” I think “terrible” means that it was terrible that they didn’t get their way in scamming me or the warranty company. Perhaps I was terrible because I refused to stop what I was doing and go look up serial #s on plumbing fittings at 6 o’clock in the evening for their fraudulent warranty claim that would have been denied anyway. 



In closing I would like to state that they are continuing to there streak of fraud by attempting to damage my character and using your company to do so. I have no intention of giving them any sort of refund. I have taken 2 hours out of my day now to respond to this petty and bogus complaint. I have all of my pictures and paper work well in order to prove my side as well. If they continue to attempt to fraudulently defame my character then I will file a lawsuit with my attorney (Deborah Higgins P.A.) against them and any one who assists in doing so. If there is any other information you would like pleas do not hesitate to make contact.

This response to your inquiry does not constitute consent for this information to be published or distributed in any sort of public format. Govern your actions accordingly.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

What I want to know is how did they have 7 leaks all from rats all at one time? How bad were the leaks? When you arrived was the water on or off?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

see bold



TheMaster said:


> What I want to know is how did they have 7 leaks all from rats all at one time? *One really pissed off rat I guess.* How bad were the leaks? *Dime sized holes chewed into the sides of the pipe.* When you arrived was the water on or off? *Off*


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Well I have a hard time believing that 7 holes were chewed all at once. maybe they had been turning the water off and on for a few months?


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

sounds good. can't wait to see what they say in response, Assuming they respond.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Many warranty companies perpetuate the idea that all will be covered when they sell the "package"....they mislead their customers into believing this, and then when the truth comes out, and they won't cover the repairs, all of sudden the contractor stuck in the middle is the bad guy.

"Home warranty" companies are a big scam in my opinion, I would never sign up for one, nor do I work for them.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It happens. I've had a few others like this. The rat chews the line to get water. HO shuts water off due to the leak. Rat gets mad that he can't get any water so he starts chewing other locations trying to find water.

That's how I knew when I first walked on the job that there would be other holes. I've been down this road before.



TheMaster said:


> Well I have a hard time believing that 7 holes were chewed all at once. maybe they had been turning the water off and on for a few months?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I never new rat's were so emotional.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> It happens. I've had a few others like this. The rat chews the line to get water. HO shuts water off due to the leak. Rat gets mad that he can't get any water so he starts chewing other locations trying to find water.
> 
> That's how I knew when I first walked on the job that there would be other holes. I've been down this road before.


 I help cut the trees down for the road.....I installed alot of polybutylene in the late 80 and rats loved to eat that too.....but people usually get the pipe repaired and its not 7 holes at once. Thats odd.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Here's one from an attic a few months ago. Little bastard chewed one section like he was eating a corn cob :laughing:



TheMaster said:


> I help cut the trees down for the road.....I installed alot of polybutylene in the late 80 and rats loved to eat that too.....but people usually get the pipe repaired and its not 7 holes at once. Thats odd.


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## waldrop (Dec 18, 2009)

i had one like that two years ago ,in a big house 25,000 sft it was vacant for a year & half then guy from floridia buys the place for 5 mil as a hunting club. second weekend has brother-in-law in basement bathroom rat ate threw shower line after mixing vavle .had to cut the wall to get to it.


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## Everflow (Feb 1, 2010)

We have good rats out where we live. They don't like pex. You guys should go feed them rats you have maybe saltine crackers make them thirsty, it's like money in the bank.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

The Rats are thirsty here too but we use copper.:thumbup: Chew on that. haha


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## jasondude (Mar 5, 2010)

hahaha, love ittt.. Im sure they were wishing that they were tons nicer after that.

Jason Karitt

www.londonsurreyplumbers.co.uk


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Welp, themaster was right. They debated the credit card charges.

I simply faxed them the pictures and a copy of the invoice and they were shot down though :laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> Welp, themaster was right. They debated the credit card charges.
> 
> I simply faxed them the pictures and a copy of the invoice and they were shot down though :laughing:


I dont understand why you think a signature prvents a person from filing a chargeback and winning. The signature just proves the cardholder was there and signed for the work to be done......The cardholder doesn't give chargeback rights up just because they signed for services.....if those services are not performed properly or they were misrepresented they can sure file a chargeback on you.

The credit card company takes many factors into account when they make a decision such as the credit worthiness of the cardholder and your record as a contractor along with your evidence.

I'm glad you got your money but it wasn't simple and they caused you trouble..I'm sure it made you feel good to win but was all that worth it AFTER THE JOB to get a few hundred? Dont put too much faith in your credit card company standing behind you everytime.....eventually they will piss you off.....it might just take a while.:thumbsup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I verified througha police officer that if I have a customer that refuses to pay me when I finish a job and BEFORE I leave the property I call them.....they will allow me to remove any materials from the house that i brought into that house. If they will not open the door when the cops arrive I could swear out a warrant for theft of property and they would be arrested when they run back across them for any reason. Labor would hafta be settled in court and they would not arrrest them based off unpaid labor.

That pissed me off...about the labor part and i told the cop that......he insisted our D.A. looks at that as a civil matter. He also said the best way to get all of you money is to go to court...but if your worried you have been scammed and you have an expensive piece of equipment in the residence it would be in your best intrest to have us come out and oversee the removal of such for your protection.

I asked him about a person going in to a sit down rest. and ordering food and not having enough money to pay for it......the cop said..."if they wait for us to get there they would not be arrested.....the rest. would hafta show they intentionally ate the food without having the money to pay and thats almost impossible to do without them admitting it or trying to run out the door...thats what we consider theft of service"


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Credit card cos. are just like insurance cos. They will roll over because it's not their money or reputation on the line.

We have never had a charge back, but it is spelled out in the agreement that they do have access to debit our account. Any attempts to close account would be a breach of contract.

The biggest lesson of all in this thread - TAKE PICTURES!!!


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## PlumbingTheCape (Mar 1, 2010)

Killertoiletspider said:


> I threw a boot at a Chicago rat once, it threw it back, and walked away pulling a garbage can.


hahaha :laughing:


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## UALocal1Plumber (May 13, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> basically it got so bad that they accused me f being anti-semitic and were gonna call the
> local jewish community center on me.....


This is a very common negotiating tactic here in NYC. Don't be fooled by it - generally they assume that their pouting will get you to run for the hills. Just ignore the accusation, it's fake anyway, and let them know you need to be paid.

I grew up in Little Neck and Kew Garden Hills, to anyone who's from around here. So I can say that I've seen this a couple thousand times.

Keith


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