# Four days on my knees - misery



## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

I hate doing radiant loops. This was a fairly big one - good sized house up and down, and a garage. Almost four full days of ugly - sore knees, sore back, sore muscles I didn't even know I had, shredded thumbs/fingers. There is no uglier job in this business.

I had successfully blown this job off. Didn't have time for it and told the guy (who is sort of a friend of mine) to get someone else. He decided to "do his own plumbing", bought his own permit and hired me as sort of a consultant. Then he hires some schmoe who knows a bit about plumbing, but isn't a plumber, and puts him to work doing the DWV.

When the underground was 90% complete he gets me to come over and "inspect" the job. I spend two hours and give him a full page 24 point list of deficiencies. It would have NEVER passed inspection.

So they're working away on that and while the owner is away picking up parts the inspector drops by to see how the owner is doing - to kind of give him some pointers if he needs it. So here's this schmoe dude with a gluepot in his hand and deer-in-headlights look on his face, and the inspector says, "Where's owner? Did you do any of this plumbing? Are you licensed?" :laughing::laughing::laughing: Schmoe goes, "... Duh..."

So then it hit the fan. They called owner in to the hall next Monday for a meeting (to crap on him). Meanwhile he has begged me to take the job. So he gets to the meeting and says, "I've decided to hire futz." The inspectors know me and they say, "Well, that's all you had to say. You're free to go." :laughing:

I ended up ripping out 100% of schmoe's underground. Tossed ALL the fittings, and re-used all the pipe with some extra couplings. He had almost no slope on anything. Code infractions galore. He didn't deburr a single pipe end, so every joint had spiky burrs sticking into the flow. Most cuts looked like he cut them with an axe. Multiple joints had pipe only inserted maybe 1/2" into the socket. There were deep puddles of glue in the pipe/fitting inverts with rocks and dirt in them. :laughing: No cleanouts on the (~70') line to the garage. I could go on - there was more...

She's all fixed now, but what an ugly underground that was! Working in groundwater for the first half of it. Not fun.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

I read your title and I thought you were asking for that raise. :laughing: jk. That looks cool. We at our shop got licensed for it but haven't had any jobs yet.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Never have done that. What covers the floor next? I see you used the term schmoe, what does that stand for? My wife and I were trying to figure out how that came to be. Its nice to hear that someone got popped for doing work illegally.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Indie said:


> Never have done that. What covers the floor next?


Concrete is already poured. Regular slab on ground floors. 1-1/2" slab upstairs.



> I see you used the term schmoe, what does that stand for? My wife and I were trying to figure out how that came to be. Its nice to hear that someone got popped for doing work illegally.


I hadn't realized that schmoe was in the dictionary, but it is.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

futz said:


> Concrete is already poured. Regular slab on ground floors. 1-1/2" slab upstairs.
> 
> I hadn't realized that schmoe was in the dictionary, but it is.


Well now I know, thanks Futz


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

"Joe Schmoe". He calls me every other week to get a quote to replace a toilet seat or ask if it'd be cheaper if we didn't do the piping to code. 

Nice job, futz.
On the slab, will the concrete guys pull the mesh up? Some jobs we used to use concrete bricks to raise the bullmesh/piping up but now most of the local guys will take very good care to pull the screen up during the pour so it doesn't just sit under 4" of concrete!

What do you use there for the wood framed floors? Gypcrete was good while it lasted here but there isn't anyone within a 6 hr drive that installs it anymore.

GJ! :thumbsup:


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Miguel said:


> On the slab, will the concrete guys pull the mesh up?


Most good concrete finishers will "hook" the mesh and pull it up a bit for ya, but I don't count on it.



> Some jobs we used to use concrete bricks to raise the bullmesh/piping up but now most of the local guys will take very good care to pull the screen up during the pour so it doesn't just sit under 4" of concrete!


You can buy rebar chairs if you don't wanna use bricks. They're cheap like borscht. 



> What do you use there for the wood framed floors? Gypcrete was good while it lasted here but there isn't anyone within a 6 hr drive that installs it anymore.


I heard Gypcrete (lightweight) wasn't working out because it had really lousy heat transfer qualities. As far as I know they just pour regular concrete up there. I've had to bust some up a couple times - normal concrete.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*that looks nice*

nice looking work, 

what kind of pex are you useing for the heat>>


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> what kind of pex are you using for the heat


The red kind. :laughing::laughing: I don't know what brand it is. I'll just walk out to the shop and see...

It's Bow OxyPex. Made by Bow Plastics Ltd.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> nice looking work,
> 
> what kind of pex are you useing for the heat>>


Prolly vangard or some other cheap crap. :whistling2:
 j/k



futz said:


> You can buy rebar chairs if you don't wanna use bricks. They're cheap like borscht.


Yeah, those things are cool! First time I saw them the concrete guys brought 'em in and clipped them to the wire. Those guys were outatowners but did a really fine job!



futz said:


> I heard Gypcrete (lightweight) wasn't working out because it had really lousy heat transfer qualities. As far as I know they just pour regular concrete up there. I've had to bust some up a couple times - normal concrete.


Heat transfer isn't great compared to concrete but better than wood. That wasn't the issue. There's special certification to install it _unless done by the homeowner_ (crap, in my books. :glare and enuff homeowners decided to do their own and squeezed out the pros. They won't come back and the local guys aren't bothering to get certified since the HO's will screw them anyway.

AFAIK during the last 7 or 8 years all dry aboves have been done with heat transfer plates and wood sheathing. :shrug: It works.
The additional structural requirements for regular concrete makes it too prohibitive to bother.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Miguel said:


> Heat transfer isn't great compared to concrete but better than wood. That wasn't the issue. There's special certification to install it _unless done by the homeowner_ (crap, in my books. :glare and enuff homeowners decided to do their own and squeezed out the pros. They won't come back and the local guys aren't bothering to get certified since the HO's will screw them anyway.


Ahhh! Well now I know. Haven't seen that stuff in MANY years.



> The additional structural requirements for regular concrete makes it too prohibitive to bother.


It's not so bad. I do lots of houses with inslab heating loops up. I think it's probably a local thing though, since you say they don't do it in Ontario.


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## TheSkinnyGuy (Sep 15, 2009)

... my knees and back ACHE just LOOKING at these. The work looks good, but ouch. I'm stiff and sore just looking at it.


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