# Water softeners



## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

Will a regular water softener remove existing scale from pipes and appliances? I know about an electronic product called easy water that makes this claim, but I have 0 experience with them. Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

To a degree, yes they will. I tell customers with old galv. water lines that show interest in water softeners to consider a repipe first. It really depends on the age and condition of the system but if you see those little rusty spots where the only thing keeping the pipes from leaking is mineral, a water softener will open them up and they will leak. 

A water softener (or any electronic voodoo machine that claims to soften water) will not restore scaled up lines to new or near new.








Paul


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## bartnc37 (Feb 24, 2009)

In theory it should. The softened water basically had the Calcium pulled out of it by the softener. The softened water sitting stagnant in the lines should still attract the calcium existing in the lines, at least the softer stuff. The water will come out "hard" till the lines flush out. Keep in mind i have no scientific evidence to back this up, just a educated opinion, really more of a guess


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

My brother in OKC has a hard water problem, 8 yr old house, copper lines under the slab. He asked me how to get rid of the scale in the existing lines. I told him about the electronic voodoo machines and also said I don't know they work for sure. I suggested a softener, just wasn't sure what effect if any this would have on existing scale


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

I would say that an 8 year old home with type L copper or better could be dealt with by intalling a water sofenter. I can't forsee any problems caused by the w/s. You could also flush the lines with a descaling solution if you wanted to spend the time.





Paul


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

I have never found any proof that it has an effect on existing piping, at least in my area. Now, it will help prevent further build-up.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

OKC is an odd place for hard water. Maybe it's that way every where but I only know what's here. I'll assume since you said OKC, he is on municipal water and not a well. The NW part of town on the Lake Hefner treatment plant has ridiculous hard water. The SE Draper water is really good.

Scale Blaster has been marketed here pretty heavily. According to the engineers in Florida with Scale Blaster that I have spoken to, the product will definitely remove existing scale build up from pipes. It is a scientifically sound process. I wouldn't necessarily call it voodoo.

The age of the piping system is critical. The older the system the more likely removal of scale will cause leaks. I have several customer's in the Quail Creek area in OKC that have had slab leaks coupled with horrible scale build up. We recommend replacing the piping system before treating the problem but these homes are generally 25+ years old. It is valid to be worried about a leak happening that was being concealed by the scale build up. Scale Blaster does appear to have the ability to dislodge a lot of build up in the pipes and water heater.

At eight years old, I think you might still be OK to install the Scale Blaster but if he waits too many more years the pipe might have to go too.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

It's a freakin scam!

Anybody Interested in some oceanfront property I'm selling in Montana?

Read here!


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Also note that I have not personally installed the Scale Blaster as yet because the clients that needed it waited till it was too late to help without risk of causing more leaks.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Somebody tell me please...

How does this VooDoo Scam Device remove the hardness minerals from the water? :whistling2:


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Somebody tell me please...
> 
> How does this VooDoo Scam Device remove the hardness minerals from the water? :whistling2:


Well what it does is use a special oscillating electronic signal to change the state of the hardness, to make it less adhesive. I believe that when this "conditioned water" passes through the pipe it helps "wash" the build-up out. They explain it better on the site. 
http://www.scaleblaster.com/Residential.aspx


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Indie said:


> Well what it does is use a special oscillating electronic signal to change the state of the hardness, to make it less adhesive. I believe that when this "conditioned water" passes through the pipe it helps "wash" the build-up out. They explain it better on the site.
> http://www.scaleblaster.com/Residential.aspx


Yea, Smoke & Mirrors, Rattling Chicken Bones and a whole lotta VooDoo...:laughing:

Read that link I posted above!:whistling2:

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Somebody tell me please...
> 
> How does this VooDoo Scam Device remove the hardness minerals from the water? :whistling2:


Doesn't actually remove anything RW. It basically changes the mineral structure in the water so that it stays dissolved and unable to adhere to piping.

So it would be inaccurate to refer to it as a water softener, filter, or treatment in the sense that I've always thought of water softeners but it does change it.

According again to their engineer, the installation is the key. Proper amount of wrapped conductor around the pipe, non ferrous pipe, not within certain distances of another fitting, etc...

I'm looking for a post from the old PDL. A PDL'er from Florida actually made these units from scratch years ago and sold them. Who knows, maybe he was at the start of what is now Scale Blaster. I'll post it if I can find it.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I'll have to check later. Link to the office network is down. :furious:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> Doesn't actually remove anything RW. It basically changes the mineral structure in the water so that it stays dissolved and unable to adhere to piping.


Right so it is not a softener!
It does not remove hardness minerals from the water.

The only possible use that may have some effect is in descaling and even that requires multiple passes through the unit to be effective.



> Tests of nonchemical scale control devices in a once-through system. G.J.C. Limpert and J.L. Raber. Materials Performance, Vol. 24, No. 10, 40-45, (1985), Oct.
> 
> The abstract of this 10-year study at the 3M Corporation reads as follows:
> 
> "Experiments were conducted in a test heat exchanger system to evaluate 10 nonchemical scale and corrosion control devices. These devices may perform either by electrostatic, magnetic, electronic, or catalytic mechanisms. Chemical tests also compared results with non-chemical systems to insure the test conditions were not so severe that scale prevention was impossible. Water from a single deep well known to cause calcium carbonate scale when heated was used in all tests. The test heat exchanger was a two-tube shell and tube with steam applied to the shell side. Water flow was either in series or parallel through the two tubes,depending on the desired test conditions. *No device tested significantly reduced the amount of scale formed, compared to the controls. Proprietary chemicals containing phosphorous reduced scale formation almost completely.*"





> An internal report (PDF format) by a group of engineers at the U.S. Dept of Energy's Lawrence Livermore Laboratory describes a carefully-done series of experiments that failed to reveal any beneficial effects of MWT at one of their water treatment facilities.


So Please Don't Bother trying to persuade me that these units have any redeming value to anyone except the sellers....:laughing:

Seriously have a good read...

This ain't rocket science... It's VooDoo...:laughing:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

What about this? http://www.scaleblaster.com/Downloads/results.pdf


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Thanks for re-posting the link RW. I missed it in the original. Guess I was distracted by the photo. There I said it, I don't read the articles...I only look at the pictures. :laughing::laughing:

Now the serious stuff. That Steve Lower is quite the passionate chemist. I got absolutely lost reading his tirades on this topic. All I can say is I guess I'm glad I've not sold or installed one yet. Having actual scientific data to support the debunking is pretty powerful. Although I have to admit that most of it is over my head.

This probably leaves Plumbpro's bro at square one. I see a lot of water softeners and I'm not completely sure they do much more than give you salty water. I've never seen a house with a softener that has pipes or fixtures that aren't suffering from hard water. Does that mean they don't work either?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Well Protech...It seems scale Blaster has some independent research as well.

Sounds like we're in the middle of a geek-off between the two web sites.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> So it would be inaccurate to refer to it as a water softener, filter, or treatment in the sense that I've always thought of water softeners but it does change it.


That is exactly correct. The manufacturers of those products are careful not to call the equipment softeners. If you watch the video it states the water is conditioned, not softened. Word play is all.

What I want to know is, WTH is Oscillating Electronic wave signal.

Oscillate: to swing or move to and fro, as a pendulum does. 

Electronic: of or pertaining to electronics or to devices, circuits, or systems developed through electronics. 

Signal: Electronics . an electrical quantity or effect, as current, voltage, or electromagnetic waves, that can be varied in such a way as to convey information.

Add this all up and you get a big pile of bull poo. If it worked, it would revolutionize the water conditioning industry, and all softeners would be removed, and those things installed.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Indie said:


> ...a big pile of bull ....


INDIE! Such language. I am so disappointed in you for letting the fervor of this topic push you over the edge.:laughing:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It's a big fancy way of saying that it produces an alternating magnetic field.

The wire coil is essentially an electromagnet. When an AC current is passed threw the coil, magnetic field is set up. The north and south poles of that field reverse every time the input current does (though there is a very short delay, as in micro seconds between oscillations)




Indie said:


> That is exactly correct. The manufacturers of those products are careful not to call the equipment softeners. If you watch the video it states the water is conditioned, not softened. Word play is all.
> 
> *What I want to know is, WTH is Oscillating Electronic wave signal.*
> 
> ...


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## plumbear (Jun 24, 2010)

It seems we have been through this magnetic water softener, or "conditioner" scam before. Are our memories really that short? This is the same scam in a shiny, sparkly new package. If any of you set out to sell these, you will in turn be selling your souls. So to speak.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*its allsmoke and mirrors....*

Its just a lot of hog wash, one compnay in town is putting them in for $1400, others are much higher..
like 1900 .......

when they calll they ususally are already sold on one
cause one of their neighbors probabaly has touted the product and gets a kickback from the installer....

and they dont want to hear a word I got to tell them

so they go to my site and click on this.....http://www.chem1.com/CQ/gallery.html

they are hell bent on sticking it up their own ass
and I am not goinig to change their minds..:laughing::laughing:

but on occasion some people listen and back out 
of the deal before it is lodjed up in there too far....:laughing::laughing:




http://www.chem1.com/CQ/gallery.html


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

What I really want to know is when calcium, magnesium, bicarbonates, calcium carbonate, limestone, calcium sulfate, and dolomite became substances that could be attracted or affected or, attracted by magnetism... :whistling2:

I haven't been in a physics or chemistry class since the 70's so maybe something new has come up....


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Indie said:


> That is exactly correct. The manufacturers of those products are careful not to call the equipment softeners. If you watch the video it states the water is conditioned, not softened. Word play is all.
> 
> What I want to know is, WTH is Oscillating Electronic wave signal.
> 
> ...


It's funny how some people listen to a company that carefully uses word plays and subjective tests to imply that their product has value...

They don't directly say that it softens water but imply the same benefits.
The mystery stooges that hit numerous forums in sybil attacks toot the value of them as water softeners. they will no doubt be here soon now that a company link has been posted...:laughing:

It feels better on my skin...
I use less soap...

How can they have any credibility? 

Any takers on my Montana Oceanfront Property yet?:laughing:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Are people who are allergic to sodium in danger from a traditional salt based softener? If so, what are their options (assuming the electro magic is a no-go).


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## Plumber patt (Jan 26, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> Are people who are allergic to sodium in danger from a traditional salt based softener? If so, what are their options (assuming the electro magic is a no-go).


Most all softeners can use sodium or potassium pellets, the potassium is a substitute for someone allergic, if it's because someone has told them that soft water is a high salt content and can affect their heart or blood pressure or what have you, then they don't know what they are talking about, there is less salt in a glass of soft water than that in a glass of milk, or even one slice of white bread


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

According to the client this is an allergy issue, not just a general health issue.


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## Plumber patt (Jan 26, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> Thanks for re-posting the link RW. I missed it in the original. Guess I was distracted by the photo. There I said it, I don't read the articles...I only look at the pictures. :laughing::laughing:
> 
> Now the serious stuff. That Steve Lower is quite the passionate chemist. I got absolutely lost reading his tirades on this topic. All I can say is I guess I'm glad I've not sold or installed one yet. Having actual scientific data to support the debunking is pretty powerful. Although I have to admit that most of it is over my head.
> 
> This probably leaves Plumbpro's bro at square one. I see a lot of water softeners and I'm not completely sure they do much more than give you salty water. I've never seen a house with a softener that has pipes or fixtures that aren't suffering from hard water. Does that mean they don't work either?


And as for thinking actual softeners don't work, that is hogwash, softeners only appear to not work when the home owner neglects them, if you don't constantly fill it with salt or the softener is incorrectly set up for water hardness then it won't be working as efficiently as it should be and you will be getting hard water slippage. If they are properly maintained as they should be, then it will remove the calcium, magnesium and soluble iron


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## Plumber patt (Jan 26, 2011)

Well if it's an allergy issue then you can instruct them to use potassium pellets instead, they are a little bit more expensive, but they eliminate the salt usage in the water and the softener will still produce the same results


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