# rinnai tankless



## tims007 (Aug 31, 2013)

rinnai tankless the 9.8gpm one with separate intake and exhaust ducts is 
being sold now at costco $899.99


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

tims007 said:


> rinnai tankless the 9.8gpm one with separate intake and exhaust ducts is being sold now at costco $899.99


Had a call the other week. He asked for a quote on a water heater. I ask the usual questions and give him my flat rate. I explain that it will be a Rheem.

He calls back and asks me. "What if I buy a whirlpool and you install it". I guess was on lowes website. 

I try to explain the differences between the two.

"But the whirlpool had great reviews" So I told him that those reviews are from customers not plumbers. They are getting the hot water but they don't know the quality differences like a plumber with 32 years experience would.

"So how much?"

I told him $550 plus permit fee and any code upgraded but you bare the burden of the manufacturer warranty.

"Let me talk to my wife"

That's code for I need to hang up on you and find someone cheap


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## suzie (Sep 1, 2010)

MTDUNN said:


> Had a call the other week. He asked for a quote on a water heater. I ask the usual questions and give him my flat rate. I explain that it will be a Rheem.
> 
> He calls back and asks me. "What if I buy a whirlpool and you install it". I guess was on lowes website.
> 
> ...


Thanks for decoding that response for me, I left my decoding ring on a job last week for those of you who remember what a decoding ring is from the cereal box in the 60's and 70's:laughing:


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## tims007 (Aug 31, 2013)

lol i love that ''let me talk to my wife'' ... thats why i like to get infront of the person .. its harder to ''talk to the wife'' lolol


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## HP plumber (Sep 4, 2013)

Big box stores are ruining our trade first time I saw csst on the shelves I was shocked. It seems like there is no value or regulation in our trade or what products are being sold to the general public anymore.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

HP plumber said:


> Big box stores are ruining our trade....


I must respectfully disagree.

If that were the case painters, framers, trim carpenters, and electricians would be in failing trades as well. The big box has certainly been instrumental in changing our trade, but ruin? Not even close.

Here's what has changed and continues to evolve:

From the very beginning, our trade was full of savvy pipe wrench users masquerading as business operators. The big box (starting with Builder's Square) and Herb Kohler slapped them in the face with the reality that they never were serving the mass market potential of plumbing fixture sales. These so-called "business" people had been padding material sales to make up for the lie that was their hourly rate. For the ones not lying about their rate, well they were just too stupid to know the difference.

To this day, and across the spectrum from one-man-bands to big time consultants, they continue to perpetuate the myth that plumbing businesses need material markup in their budget. 

So the benefit of all the Boxes to our trade has been immeasurable. Now that the curtain has been drawn back on the fake wizard of markup, plumbing business operators are forced to know their real cost numbers and know that the bills must be paid whether Mr. Jones wanted a bibb washer, a drain unclogged, or a brushed nickel faucet installed. Regardless of the materials needed on the job the electric bill, telephone bill, fuel bill, advertising bill, rent bill, etc. all stayed the same.

I don't remember the last time I actually counted on material markup for anything that mattered. The billable hour rate is where the money is and where the budget is either met or shredded.

The big box sells Fluidmaster, Kohler, Delta, Moen, American Standard, Square D, Owens Corning insulation, Ridgid, DeWalt, Porter. Cable, Weyerhaeuser lumber, GE load centers, Romex wire, Greenlee, Klein, MagLite, Charlotte pipe, Nibco valves and fittings, Rheem, Watts, Oaty, Sioux Chief, Wolverine tube, Fernco, Church, Broan, and Brass Craft.

Are these bad brands? No. The reason most don't like the offering at the box is because we know we cannot compete with the box prices. The sometimes sell at a profit for less than we can buy at wholesale.

If plumbers would quit trying to play the retail game that they never were in to begin with, maybe they would realize their worth is and always has been in their expertise and service. If you charge the right rate for your service, it won't matter where the latest tankless scam came from.

Our expertise. Now that is a product worth selling and the last time I checked it never was and never will be stocked at Home Depot.


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## tims007 (Aug 31, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> I must respectfully disagree.
> 
> If that were the case painters, framers, trim carpenters, and electricians would be in failing trades as well. The big box has certainly been instrumental in changing our trade, but ruin? Not even close.
> 
> ...





can i get an amen :thumbup::thumbup:


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## ibeplumber (Sep 20, 2011)

tims007 said:


> rinnai tankless the 9.8gpm one with separate intake and exhaust ducts is being sold now at costco $899.99


Do you know the Model #? Did you see this yourself? I couldn't find them on their website.


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## Pacificpipes (Oct 1, 2013)

ibeplumber said:


> Do you know the Model #? Did you see this yourself? I couldn't find them on their website.


I was just shopping there today and saw it also. No idea on the model though. It was right next to the coffins they sell though.


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## tims007 (Aug 31, 2013)

ibeplumber said:


> Do you know the Model #? Did you see this yourself? I couldn't find them on their website.


i did not get the model # .... however i believe it is the lux siereis with the


edit i calling them it is R98LSIN there is only 19 of them in my area and not every store has them ..


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## tims007 (Aug 31, 2013)

Product Specifications
General Data
Fuel Type	Natural Gas
Vent Type	Direct
Storage Type	Tankless
Coils Quantity	1
Installation Location	Indoor
Performance Data
Maximum Input Capacity (BTU)	237,000
Minimum Input Capacity (BTU)	19,000
Input Capacity Range	Residential
Maximum Output Capacity (BTU)	237,000
Minimum Output Capacity (BTU)	19,000
Energy Factor	83
Maximum Flow Rate (GPM)	9.8
Minimum Flow Rate (GPM)	0.6
Minimum Operating Temperature (Fahrenheit)	98
Maximum Operating Temperature (Fahrenheit)	140
Electrical Data
Voltage (Volts)	120
Phase	1
Frequency (Hertz)	60
Dimensions
Primary Vent Pipe Diameter (Inches)	4
Gas Connection Size (Inches)	3/4
Cold Water Inlet (Inches)	3/4
Hot Water Outlet (Inches)	3/4
Supply Connection (Inches)	3/4
Return Connection (Inches)	3/4
Product Height (Inches)	23 3/5
Product Width (Inches)	18 1/2
Product Depth (Inches)	9 1/10
Product Weight (Pounds)	55
Warranty
Parts Warranty (Years)	5
Heat Exchanger Warranty (Years)	12
Certifications
Energy Star Listed	Yes
CSA Listed	Yes
UPC Listed	Yes
NSF Listed	Yes
Country of Origin	Japan


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> I must respectfully disagree.
> 
> If that were the case painters, framers, trim carpenters, and electricians would be in failing trades as well. The big box has certainly been instrumental in changing our trade, but ruin? Not even close.
> 
> ...


First of all, I don't think the plumbing industry will ever die out. There will always be a need for skilled professionals. However, I don't understand how you can deny the fact that box stores, pex, shark bites, and the internet have changed the landscape of the industry. 

_Most customers are going to consider your labor charge to only account for the time the plumber was at the job_. Rarely do you have a client that truly understands what all goes into having the right parts when you need them. 

_I spend several hours every week taking inventory, picking up parts, and organizing my truck._ Not to mention the accounting man hours that should go into every part you purchase. You also have to factor in the time you spend picking up parts and bringing them to your clients doorsteps. 

If you're really a professional, you warranty all of the products you install. This means a manufacturer error can result in you working for free. If you want to run a successful plumbing company, you need to understand your overhead.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> .....The big box has certainly been instrumental in changing our trade.....





plumberkc said:


> ...However, I don't understand how you can deny the fact that box stores, pex, shark bites, and the internet have changed the landscape of the industry....


It is near the very beginning of my post. :blink:


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> It is near the very beginning of my post. :blink:


Sorry, must have missed it. Any response to the rest of my post?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

plumberkc said:


> Sorry, must have missed it. Any response to the rest of my post?


I agree with the rest of it except for the warranty on ALL products installed. There is no warranty expressed or implied for products that we do not provide. This is but one of the reasons I have no major concern with HD's supposed competition.

I'll stand behind what I do, not behind what the customer does.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> There is no warranty expressed or implied for products that we do not provide.


I have this in my fine print on my invoices almost word for word


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> I agree with the rest of it except for the warranty on ALL products installed. There is no warranty expressed or implied for products that we do not provide. This is but one of the reasons I have no major concern with HD's supposed competition.


Can we just disagree to agree here :blink:.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

No one is running this trade into the gutter faster than plumbers themselves. Hate to see where the hourly charges will be 20 years from now with the way things are going.


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## HP plumber (Sep 4, 2013)

I just don't think any yahoo should be able to go buy a water heater or gas pipe because installed incorrectly it can be dangerous that is why we study the codes and learn our trade to "protect the health of our nation". I don't think they sell refrigerant at Home Depot because if not properly recovered it is bad for our environment and I wish our trade was more regulated like that . In my opinion because any handyman can buy and install certain products for dirt cheap our expertise is devalued and cheapened. I do agree with plmbiz on making it hard to mark up products and is why I am inspired by Richard Hilliard and am working on selling each job as a whole and no more t&m it just seems easier that way for me and the customer especially having to answer phone calls on the job.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

The only reason refrigerant is not sold outside of HVAC licensing is because the HVAC lobby read "How To Win Friends And Influence People".

Congress is not interested in protectionist legislation so only you get to make money in your trade. They are quite willing to "pretend" to protect the environment to appease noisy and wealthy green lobbyists. So that s the card HVAC played. And they played it well.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> I must respectfully disagree.
> 
> If that were the case painters, framers, trim carpenters, and electricians would be in failing trades as well. The big box has certainly been instrumental in changing our trade, but ruin? Not even close.
> 
> ...



I used to do a thread called " the stupid post of the week ". Without a doubt this has to be in the top ten and shows a complete lack of understanding of business practices, the plumbing trade and economics 101. In short it is a load of pure crap. My plumbing business is a business, just like home freeking depot and every other retail business. I SELL RETAIL. My business relies on profits from both service and retail sales. Believing that the big box stores have somehow benefited ANY retail business is beyond comprehension. They have put thousands of businesses out of business. They are responsible for tanking local hardware stores, plumbing companies, contractors, electricians, painters and the list goes on. This is just plain pandering to Home Depot who's adds are still plastered all over this site basically giving every business owner and plumber the finger.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

So your business is retail sales of widgets? That may be the stupid business move of the week. :laughing: 

I truly wish you success but you have a real uphill climb. 

If I were operating a retail sales sales business whose focus was on moving widgets I would give your rants some consideration. I on the other hand, operate a service business. Fret over the Box all you want. They concern me not.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> So your business is retail sales of widgets? That may be the stupid business move of the week. :laughing:
> 
> I truly wish you success but you have a real uphill climb.
> 
> If I were operating a retail sales sales business whose focus was on moving widgets I would give you rants some consideration. I on the other hand, operate a service business. Fret over the Box all you want. They concern me not.


My business is retail sales of PLUMBING fixtures and materials AND service. A combination of both

The "uphill climb" has been happening since 1956. We have 13 service and installation plumbers, three office staff and gross close to 2 mil a year so the climb has been very fruitful even in the recession. If you want to drive around in a station wagon fixing leaking toilets for a living and call that a plumbing business, all the power too you.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> My business is retail sales of PLUMBING fixtures and materials AND service. A combination of both The "uphill climb" has been happening since 1956. We have 13 service and installation plumbers, three office staff and gross close to 2 mil a year so the climb has been very fruitful even in the recession. If you want to drive around in a station wagon fixing leaking toilets for a living and call that a plumbing business, all the power too you.


If the PlumbingZone had awards for gross mischaracterization, you surely would win top prize.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> If the PlumbingZone had awards for gross mischaracterization, you surely would win top prize.


What am I mischaracterizing? You are the guy defending Home Depots predatory business practices. You are the guy that is apparently blind to the damage these types of business have done to local business. The fact that you for some wild reason you don't consider material sales mark-up to be an integral part of a plumbing businesses profit center is incomprehensible. How long have you been in business? How many employees? What's your gross? Whats your margin?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> What am I mischaracterizing?


 This...


nhmaster3015 said:


> ....If you want to drive around in a station wagon fixing leaking toilets for a living and call that a plumbing business, all the power too you.





nhmaster3015 said:


> ...How long have you been in business? How many employees? What's your gross? Whats your margin?


I'll show you mine when you show me yours. But for now here are four answers to the questions...

22nd year for this biz.

12 full time, 4 part time

A lot.

Above national average for net above my own salary and tax liability.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Call me in back in another 36 years :thumbup:

Hey, all kidding aside it looks like you have a handle on what you do but I also think what you do is materially different that what we do. We do a lot of commercial and a lot of HVAC and you better believe that we move a lot of product. I buy 40 gallon water heaters by the trailer load, faucets by the pallet, you get the picture. Home Depot is a direct and dangerous competitor and one that we deal with every day of the week as they try harder every year to leverage sales away from the local businesses. I have a very good friend that was a Home Depot store manager for many years before retiring and he will tell you flat out that Home Depot has an internal policy to put everyone else in the market out of business.


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