# Under counter WH install



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

This was a pain. I had to go down from a 40gal to a 30gal because the old 40 just barely fit in there and with the new thicker insulation on the replacement heater a 40 would not fit. Also, there was now place to run a pan drain or t/p drain without tearing open cabinets and walls to get to the exterior so I opted to aim the drain up so a shop vac could be attached in case of an emergency. I also opted to use an expansion tank vs an expansion valve as there is no place to drain the valve to. Notice how I had to notch the block wall to fit the pan in there.

HO did not want to spend the extra money to get a quality electric tankless and run new wires to it. I don't blame him. So this is the best we could do on the budget he was working with.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

more pics


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

more pics still


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

last one


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Looks good. Do you get a lot from Barnett. Do you do the carpentry misc. repairs or pass it off.


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## leak1 (Mar 25, 2009)

whats with the pan drain? premier water heaters ! come on-youll be sorry!


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Read the post on the pan drain. Premier water heaters are the only heaters that I haven't had a problem with yet (aside from the damn barnett guys denting the heck out of them)



leak1 said:


> whats with the pan drain? premier water heaters ! come on-youll be sorry!


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Yeah, I deal with barnett a lot. I don't get into non-plumbing at all. I wash my hands of everything except the plumbing to keep things simple. I try to only refer work out and not sub it. I don't need any extra headaches.



stillaround said:


> Looks good. Do you get a lot from Barnett. Do you do the carpentry misc. repairs or pass it off.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

I had one similar to that 2 years ago! I thought I was alone! We had to remove the countertop, including the kitchen sink, to get to it.

There was a unsoldered copper 90 on that job that didn't leak for the 15 years it was in...

The place is a large apartment complex, so they had a handyman carpenter on premise to put the counter back together.

You use a expansion tank on electric, huh? Here its only for gas. Never saw a Premier...Bradford White only here.

My whole job was 2200.00 for a 40 gallon 240...trip :laughing:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't see what the source of the heat has to do with the decision to use a thermal expansion device or not. Could you explain what I'm missing?


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Protech said:


> I don't see what the source of the heat has to do with the decision to use a thermal expansion device or not. Could you explain what I'm missing?


The way the code was explained to me is that water expands more by flame than electric, so its not needed on electric.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Our states if the building had been closed by any kind of backflow device then it is to be installed.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

uh huh..........so the water magiclly knows that the heat is coming from flam and not an electric element.............I see.

Wait, I've figured it out. See the water is scared of fire (they have a history of not getting along) and when it hears that flame on the other side of the tank wall it expands to make it's self look bigger to scare away the water (kinda like a puffer fish):laughing:

I'm just messin wit ya man.



Plumber said:


> The way the code was explained to me is that water expands more by flame than electric, so its not needed on electric.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

*Our code has similar language.*

*504.4 Relief valve.* All storage water heaters operating above atmospheric pressure shall be provided with an approved, self-closing (levered) pressure relief valve and temperature relief valve or combination thereof. The relief valve shall conform to ANSI Z21.22. The relief valve shall not be used as a means of controlling thermal expansion.


*607.3 Thermal expansion control.* A means of controlling increased pressure caused by thermal expansion shall be provided where required in accordance with Sections 607.3.1 and 607.3.2. 
*607.3.1 Pressure-reducing valve.* For water service system sizes up to and including 2 inches (51 mm), a device for controlling pressure shall be installed where, because of thermal expansion, the pressure on the downstream side of a pressure-reducing valve exceeds the pressure-reducing valve setting.
*607.3.2 Backflow prevention device or check valve.* Where a backflow prevention device, check valve or other device is installed on a water supply system utilizing storage water heating equipment such that thermal expansion causes an increase in pressure, a device for controlling pressure shall be installed.




Plumberman said:


> Our states if the building had been closed by any kind of backflow device then it is to be installed.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Protech said:


> uh huh..........so the water magiclly knows that the heat is coming from flam and not an electric element.............I see.
> 
> Wait, I've figured it out. See the water is scared of fire (they have a history of not getting along) and when it hears that flame on the other side of the tank wall it expands to make it's self look bigger to scare away the water (kinda like a puffer fish):laughing:
> 
> I'm just messin wit ya man.


aaaah, man, its not my code...:laughing:

I'm always tempted to sell one on electric, but you know I'd get busted.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Upc?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Plumber said:


> The way the code was explained to me is that water expands more by flame than electric, so its not needed on electric.


Wow that is a most interesting concept...:blink:

For some reason they are missing the gas or electric plug in for the formula. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/volumetric-temperature-expansion-d_315.html :laughing:

Use of an thermal expansion tank has everything to do with the creation of a closed system whether it is a check valve, backflow preventor, or, PRV causing the closed system...


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Plumber said:


> The way the code was explained to me is that water expands more by flame than electric, so its not needed on electric.


That has to be a new sig line for someone :laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Plumberman said:


> That has to be a new sig line for someone :laughing:


Yep! I'm on that like stink on sheet...:laughing:
Maybe this was a discussion we shoulda had with Helgore in chat that night...:laughing:


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Nice:thumbup:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Water does heat faster in a gas heater. Check out the 1st hour recovery stats. 
The dual checks coupled with high city pressure has got some relief valves popping. And as of yet no enforcement or requirement for expansion anything ri cheer whear ah am.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

the speed of expansion has nothing to do with the final amount of expansion which will be th same if the delta T and tank volume are the same.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Yep! I'm on that like stink on sheet...:laughing:
> Maybe this was a discussion we shoulda had with Helgore in chat that night...:laughing:


I'll double check, but I've never seen a expansion tank on electric. Last time this came up, I think Cali was the same way. 

I did the water heater CEU course last year and it wasn't mentioned for electric. Much of the UPC isn't followed up here.

Hey, if they changed it, it means more money for me, but I won't sell it if its not required.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I never see expansion tanks on electric water heaters, even if there is a PRV on the system, there just not there, and have not seen any problems. Last on I installed was a small one gal expansion tank, this was for a small five gal BW heater, used for two sinks back to back, since the developed length was so short, expansion would push the limits of the T&P, it had no place for expansion to go so it did need a expansion tank.


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## express (Nov 22, 2008)

I have found with a closed loop system(circulator or check valve) an expansion tank is always necessary.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

express said:


> I have found with a closed loop system(circulator or check valve) an expansion tank is always necessary.


Very seldom needed here, I just don't see them. I don't install them.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Protech said:


> the speed of expansion has nothing to do with the final amount of expansion which will be th same if the delta T and tank volume are the same.


 The rate of heat dissipation my dear Watson is needed to be included in the formula and the chances are less for a crossing of the threshold when the rate of heat up is slower. Show me your formula dude.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

stillaround said:


> The rate of heat dissipation my dear Watson is needed to be included in the formula and the chances are less for a crossing of the threshold when the rate of heat up is slower. Show me your formula dude.



The amount of Thermal Expansion has nothing to do with how fast the water gets heated. The variables in the equation are how much you are heating and the difference in temperature.

The only thing a slower heating rate may have in its favor is there is more time when someone could use water in the home, or, a leak could bleed off the building pressure. In a closed system without any usage or leaks the pressure build up will be the same regardless of the rate of recovery.

It's a lot like going on a 500 mile drive...
It doesn't matter if you are doing in your family car on I-95, or, in a Sprint Cup car at Daytona Speedway...
You still drove 500 miles...:whistling2:

See my earlier post the formula is listed there as well as in my new auto signature.
The link has details of the formula variables as well as an auto calculator you can play with...


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Redwood said:


> The amount of Thermal Expansion has nothing to do with how fast the water gets heated. The variables in the equation are how much you are heating and the difference in temperature.
> 
> The only thing a slower heating rate may have in its favor is there is more time when someone could use water in the home, or, a leak could bleed off the building pressure. In a closed system without any usage or leaks the pressure build up will be the same regardless of the rate of recovery.
> 
> ...


Redwood or whoever you are, nobody believes for a minute that you can do advanced math. I've known hundreds of plumbers in my career and most can barely read and write.

Google is the tool for all posers.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Don't see any differentiation between gas and electric here:
http://www.watts.com/pro/divisions/watersafety_flowcontrol/learnabout/learnabout_thermexpansion.asp

Again no mention of the rate of heating only delta T and volume:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water-thermal-properties-d_162.html

Any further questions?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I didn't realize that 1st year collage algebra was considered "advanced math"



Plumber said:


> Redwood or whoever you are, nobody believes for a minute that you can do advanced math. I've known hundreds of plumbers in my career and most can barely read and write.
> 
> Google is the tool for all posers.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Plumber said:


> Redwood or whoever you are, nobody believes for a minute that you can do advanced math. I've known hundreds of plumbers in my career and most can barely read and write.
> 
> *Google is the tool for all posers.*


:laughing: You really crack me up!:laughing:
I'll clue you in...
I have done a bit of advanced math...
Courses with names you wouldn't understand like Analytical Geometry (Cartesian Geometry), Calculus, & Differential Equations...:whistling2:

But lets not go there...
It would be too hard for you to comprehend those concepts...:blink:

We'll go with the simpler stuff like expanding water and combating your ignorance of the subject.:thumbup:

I would suggest that perhaps you try being a *"Poser"* and google the topic of thermal expansion of water and do a little reading before you supply anyone else with a new autosignature...

It's tough to alter facts!

Maybe you need to hang out with smarter plumbers...:laughing:


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Redwood said:


> :laughing: You really crack me up!:laughing:
> I'll clue you in...
> I have done a bit of advanced math...
> Courses with names you wouldn't understand like Analytical Geometry (Cartesian Geometry), Calculus, & Differential Equations...:whistling2:
> ...


naaaaaah


Protech said:


> I didn't realize that 1st year *collage* algebra was considered "advanced math"


Riiiiight


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Plumber said:


> naaaaaah


Well we tried but I guess Ron White was right....:yes:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Okay enlighten me. 3 terms of calculus and I dont remember past dy/dx. Obviously if a tank reaches a set temp then the amount of expansion would be equal. But if you include the piping system ( gentlemen pay attention) which if copper, needs an expansion joint, and there is heat loss due to whatever factor and the rate of heat up is slower so that the heat loss marginalizes the expansion to some degree you just may keep your soldered joint from failing if your expansion joint is missing. Now why is an expansion tank required -to protect from a t&p blow off or the related piping stressed. I submit ladies and gentleman of the jury that if the spirit of the code is to protect the piping then the more rapid the heat up of the water can be a factor in differentiating it in the code enforcements mind whether its gas or electric.
OK Redwood. The target should be pretty big now. Protech you stay out of it. Too many links. All I need is one jury member to go my way.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

If the pipe dont fit you must aquit.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Now you want to figure the expansion of the piping as well?
Sheesh we're really going to go over Plumbers head on this one...

You are really going on a stretch here...
Especially when you haven't accepted the basic concept that 40 gallons of water heated from 70 degrees F to 120 degrees F has the same amount of expansion regardless of whether it is heated by electricity, gas, or, oil.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Perhaps the reason for the lack of expansion tanks in your area is simply they have a supply pressure less than 150 and Prvs with a thermal bypass. If you have a closed system then you need to take in account for thermal expansion no matter what is causing the thermal expansion an electric heater or a gas heater.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

an easy experiment with a house with an electric water heater is to do this: run the hot water till cold. then put a pressure gauge on a house bibb and close the main valve and watch the pressure go up. assuming they don't have an expansion tank.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Now you want to figure the expansion of the piping as well?
> Sheesh we're really going to go over Plumbers head on this one...
> 
> You are really going on a stretch here...
> Especially when you haven't accepted the basic concept that 40 gallons of water heated from 70 degrees F to 120 degrees F has the same amount of expansion regardless of whether it is heated by electricity, gas, or, oil.


 Oh no , I do accept that: Boyles law, Charles law and Murphys law-well aquainted with all. The concept of more rapid heat up suggests more of a need for protection. Could be the reason for the slower adopting of code and the perception issue. However, you have yet to nail me on my scenario which is some of my finer Barry Scheckery. Dont disappoint me now. What is the underlying purpose of expansion protection covering-just a heater explosion?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't see what the piping has to do with it. If you have 5 gallons of water in the pipes it's still 5 gallons if you put a gas heater in instead of an electric.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Plumber Jim said:


> an easy experiment with a house with an electric water heater is to do this: run the hot water till cold. then put a pressure gauge on a house bibb and close the main valve and watch the pressure go up. assuming they don't have an expansion tank.


Or, Leaking faucets & Toilets...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Protech said:


> I don't see what the piping has to do with it. If you have 5 gallons of water in the pipes it's still 5 gallons if you put a gas heater in instead of an electric.


You are right it is irrelevent...:thumbup:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Here, Ill cut to the chase. All Plumber said was the way code was explained to him etc etc. There is a very reasonable explanation for that perception and in certain contexts has some validity. If he had 6 years of college he might have missed out on his plumbing career. And besides, he blamed the Chinese for my shirts not fitting so I cut him triple slack.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

WTF are you talking about? What does pipe expansion have to do with water expansion? Pipe expansion is countered by expansion loops or offsets. Water expansion is countered by expansion valves and/or tanks.
 


stillaround said:


> Okay enlighten me. 3 terms of calculus and I dont remember past dy/dx. Obviously if a tank reaches a set temp then the amount of expansion would be equal. But if you include the piping system ( gentlemen pay attention) which if copper, needs an expansion joint, and there is heat loss due to whatever factor and the rate of heat up is slower so that the heat loss marginalizes the expansion to some degree you just may keep your soldered joint from failing if your expansion joint is missing. Now why is an expansion tank required -to protect from a t&p blow off or the related piping stressed. I submit ladies and gentleman of the jury that if the spirit of the code is to protect the piping then the more rapid the heat up of the water can be a factor in differentiating it in the code enforcements mind whether its gas or electric.
> OK Redwood. The target should be pretty big now. Protech you stay out of it. Too many links. All I need is one jury member to go my way.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

stillaround said:


> Oh no , I do accept that: Boyles law, Charles law and Murphys law-well aquainted with all. The concept of more rapid heat up suggests more of a need for protection. Could be the reason for the slower adopting of code and the perception issue. However, you have yet to nail me on my scenario which is some of my finer Barry Scheckery. Dont disappoint me now. What is the underlying purpose of expansion protection covering-just a heater explosion?


The only thing the Expansion Tank is doing is absorbing the pressure created by the thermal expansion of the water being heated in a closed system. This expansion can raise the pressure in a closed system in some cases high enough to cause the T&P Valve to open and discharge a small amount of water. 

The proper functioning of the T&P Valve is one of the safety components in a water heater that prevents the water prevents water heaters from exploding.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Protech said:


> I don't see what the piping has to do with it. If you have 5 gallons of water in the pipes it's still 5 gallons if you put a gas heater in instead of an electric.


 Im suprised at you. Heat loss. Heat loss. Get out of the text book, world in a vacuum, anti galvo lack of stray voltage, stand on the hose bib dream world for a moment. Temperature to cause 2" expansion on a 60 ft 1 1/2" copper run say for example 155 degrees at which point solder joint fails.Temp of water circulated 150degrees. Heat loss at area of weak solder joint configuration(point of greatest leverage) 6 degrees. Net temp 144 degrees but since its a gas heater it runs a little long and gets to 156 degrees-the question is will that joint fail. And if there was no heat loss would it surely fail.(Making me work for it huh)


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

stillaround said:


> Heat loss at area of weak solder joint configuration(point of greatest leverage) 6 degrees. Net temp 144 degrees but since its a gas heater it runs a little long and gets to 156 degrees-the question is will that joint fail. And if there was no heat loss would it surely fail.(Making me work for it huh)


No it won't read your definition for a Soldered Joint in you code book.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

So the expansion tanks purpose is only for the pressure rise and Protech nailed me on the expansion. Protech, I didnt want you in on this one. Plumber-I cant win every case. Alright I move for a recess. I dont like learning this way.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> No it won't read your definition for a Soldered Joint in you code book.


 Havent you ever seen someone go down for the third time.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Or, Leaking faucets & Toilets...


 
true.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Sorry, brainiacs, but I have to go with what the entire west coast (California, Oregon, Washington) tells me: Not needed on electric water heaters. 

Why? I really don't _ing care.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Rapid heating as far as the T&P Valve goes would require a larger size T&P Valve. For instance the run of the mill residential tank water heater might use a Watts 100XL T&P which is rated for 105,000 BTU/hr. 

Water heaters or boilers with higher inputs would require T&P's like the 40, 140, 240, 340, & 342 series T&P's.

However the expansion tank size would be the same.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Soldered Joint - A joint obtained by the joining of metal parts with metallic mixtures or alloys which melt at a temperature below 800 degree F and above 300 degree F.

So how do you figure hot water at 150 degrees will cause a joint to fail.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Soldered Joint - A joint obtained by the joining of metal parts with metallic mixtures or alloys which melt at a temperature below 800 degree F and above 300 degree F.
> 
> So how do you figure hot water at 150 degrees will cause a joint to fail.


 The expansion of the pipe on a long run stresses the joint. I have seen this on some 4+1 buildings in ChiTown where the expansion joint wasnt there and there was chronic failures --not a temp thing


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Ok no need to fight on here.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Solve the pipe expansion problems all together and use pex pipe, you won't have failed joints if you do.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Solve the pipe expansion problems all together and use pex pipe, you won't have failed joints if you do.


Im with you. I knew Redwood could get me and that Protech's pretty smart. Old dogs can learn new tricks. That was exhausting.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

stillaround said:


> Im with you. I knew Redwood could get me and that Protech's pretty smart. Old dogs can learn new tricks. That was exhausting.


But we gotcha dialed in right?

Armed with your new found knowledge you'll be installing some expansion tanks! :thumbup:


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

I would agree that pressures over 150 psi could cause failure depending on the quality of the joints.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

? looks like someone got their feelings hurt. Did they take their ball and go home?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

_Makes note to self_


_Learned new words today; wetbrain, zed, greybush, knowbuddy, can't figure out the snicker's bar or where it goes. :blink: Thinking, Hrmmm, there's a code encryption with all this talk speak, must break code or install thermal expansion tank on toilet. Possible gaseous state from all the shi&-slinging is elevating temps. :laughing:_


The enforcement of thermal expansion tanks across all codes just started in the past 25 years. When I first started in this profession they didn't require them, now they do.

Any device in a potable water system that creates tempered water "should" have some type of device to control thermal expansion given the nature of how it creates added pressure that's not the same as the static water line pressure entering the structure.

If there is no backflow device on the property, that water will move back and forth out of that property like an open door, like a wave coming and going on a beachfront. When there is a check valve or other device that does not allow thermal expansion to build up, this will indirectly elevate the water pressure in the building.

If it is a check valve only, bad things can happen with a water heater with it's only device that even remotely addresses thermal expansion, being a T&P. You cannot use that relief valve as a source for controlling thermal expansion, never. I've even heard plumbing inspectors say that.....so that tells you what knowledge base exists across the country. 

If the code is laxed from one state to another, that just follows a slew of numerous code requirements for different materials. 

In KY, any type of backflow device on the main line is a mandatory expansion tank, no exceptions. But I know of tons of homes that have a PRV with no expansion tank, pressure set down at 50psi and no "direct" problems with the installation. 


However, that does not mean that the pressure is not elevating in that process. It is, which is exceeding the setting on the PRV, but only until a faucet is opened, toilet is flushed, anything that releases that captive pressure, and then the tank of ready to use hot water starts to recreate the pressure again. 


If you take a water heater, let it heat the water inside the tank for a full cycle, shut the main water line down and cut those pipes flush with the top of the heater...

water will grow out of that tank for 3 to 4 hours consistently till it reaches the moment that the activity of water molecules begins to slow down.



Codes will eventually cover this in all 50 states. It's use has proven its benefit time and time again. 



Roast "watching pron on his etch-a-sketch" Duck


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

OK enough bashing each other. Sorry but this thread had gone too far, it is now closed..


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