# Gurgling toilet, sink, shower causes?



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

So I've had a few calls where people say their sink drain, shower drain or toilet gurgles when they flush. Last month I got exactly that, a super slow toilet and gurgling drains in the basement bathroom. The pipes were brand new all the way to the street. I found out it just been vented with an AAV. Took the AAV out and evrything was normal. 

Now this call is for next monday is a gurgling toilet when it is being flushed. New home owner who's had the house for 6 months and it has been doing that a long time. Old owner has been placed in old home and can't be reached. Checking on google map 3 trees in the front yard(20 foot front yard). The trees are about 20 feet tall(2 stories high)

In your experience how many times is it a vent issue or is it a sign of roots growing in the joints in the front yard?


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

I’ve seen AAVs cause that. Is the whole house on one? I haven’t ever seen a whole house AAVs with enough DFUs and to simply remove it really isn’t a good decisive test, but one I use. All you’re really doing is making an inside vent. Sometimes an open sewer stinks like crazy, sometimes not at all.

Really the only way to truly know is to pop the clean out and make the system back up. It can be difficult when dealing with a high wall clean out or slab. I’ve been fooled before.

With new plastic to the street any reputable excavation company would install an outside two way clean out. Have the customer/tenant flush a toilet and have your ear up to the clean out and see if it sounds healthy or not. If questionable, remove the AAV and repeat. 

Worst case high wall clean out I pop the clean out, replace, flush once, pop the clean out, repeat until a backup is seen. Have a bucket handy. 

Diagnosis will save nothing but time, money and face.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

I have seen root invasions in pvc when a new line is set on a sharp rock and splits after a few years.

Have you received your camera yet?

Edit: no that was the mini jetter I was thinking of....


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I have never seen any outside clean out. I don't know if it would freeze. Not sure if it is a legal practice or not. Anything outside the house isn't in the plumbing code.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Very few times have I ever seen a main line freeze. Really only two places. One was stupid engineering/design, the other 1’ below grade under an unheated garage. Usually the methane gas keeps a sewer above freezing.


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

Most of the gurgles i've come across are plugged lines.

Occasionally it's an aav in a mobile home that's stuck


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

It’s a drain problem of some sort. I know vents get blamed for a lot, but it’s rarely their fault for slow drains.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

That's a lot of detective work. I'll see if its slow or see if it is diy plumbing if not would you suggest a camera inspection first or go straight to the snake?

In my opinion I prefer sending a camera first and locator. I don't want to send a snake and get caught up in roots like a month ago. That place had a toilet line clog, my cable got stuck and came back with a bunch of roots. After talking to a tenant the new owner learned they had cut a tree down the previous year and put new pipe in the front yard. New pipe and still had roots, probably improper job?

I'm just not buying a bigger machine. Too much risk and too much drama. If the guy doesn't want to pay for a camera then it'll be written on the bill and the issue unresolved. I get called to find issues and sometimes they tie my hands behind my back. I'm not doing work and leave empty handed anymore.


Lastly didn't get the mini jetter yet (8 days).


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

Tango said:


> That's a lot of detective work. I'll see if its slow or see if it is diy plumbing if not would you suggest a camera inspection first or go straight to the snake?
> 
> In my opinion I prefer sending a camera first and locator. I don't want to send a snake and get caught up in roots like a month ago. That place had a toilet line clog, my cable got stuck and came back with a bunch of roots. After talking to a tenant the new owner learned they had cut a tree down the previous year and put new pipe in the front yard. New pipe and still had roots, probably improper job?
> 
> ...


I've never used a camera before, but from what i've heard from the guys at R.R. who would camera for us it's pretty tough to see down there if the line is stopped up.

Some people say "Well if you got it cleared, what's the point of putting a camera down there?" Which I will submit to on the first attempt especially if they don't have the money, but really not a bad idea especially if you don't pull something back. I think RR is about $100 for the camera out here.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Toli said:


> It’s a drain problem of some sort. I know vents get blamed for a lot, but it’s rarely their fault for slow drains.


























I agree. In rare instances a vent is to blame. 


Example: Some years ago I was called to a mobile home; it was on a farm with stables, horses and such. The call was W/C isn't flushing. So I checked the toilet and sure enough it did not want to flush. Anyway, long story short, I went underneath and found a 2" PVC waste line from the lav where the plumber's strap had broken and the horizontal 2" drain line was hanging and back-pitched. And as we all know a severely back-pitched line holds water. This 2" line was holding enough water to cut off the vent for that particular W/C in that bathroom. When I lifted the line up and gave it proper pitch, then voila! The W/C flushed perfectly!


So yes gurgling fixtures is nearly always due to a blockage but on rare occasions it may be a vent.






So Tango, check the main line. If it is free and clear, then start looking at vent piping.


I've also seen a W/C not flush due to a backpitched line in a bathroom in another house {the ground rough was done by another plumber and then he walked off the job, so they hired me finish the 2nd rough and the final} and when I was trying to diagnose the problem {it was obviously while setting fixtures that this problem showed itself} I went to the kitchen and un-screwed the AAV under the kit. sink and that made the W/C flush fine; but with the AAV installed, it didn't want to flush. I determined that w/ the AAV removed, the W/C could then suck enough air to flush properly. The kit. AAV was 25 feet or so from the W/C.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Alan said:


> I've never used a camera before, but from what i've heard from the guys at R.R. who would camera for us it's pretty tough to see down there if the line is stopped up.
> 
> Some people say "Well if you got it cleared, what's the point of putting a camera down there?" Which I will submit to on the first attempt especially if they don't have the money, but really not a bad idea especially if you don't pull something back. I think RR is about $100 for the camera out here.


The guy didn't say it was clogged so going with a camera would be a good way to find out it there are any roots in that old pipe. It's funny how a lot of people want to know the cause of the problem and fix it without spending or opening walls. 

RR charges 800$ to unclog a toilet! They evidently drive around all day not telling prices on the phone."from what a woman said to me" true or not???


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Tango said:


> The guy didn't say it was clogged so going with a camera would be a good way to find out it there are any roots in that old pipe. It's funny how a lot of people want to know the cause of the problem and fix it without spending or opening walls.
> 
> RR charges 800$ to unclog a toilet! They evidently drive around all day not telling prices on the phone."from what a woman said to me" true or not???


If your going to run the camera first, Monday, right? Tell him not to run ANY!!! Water from any fixture. If it’s holding you won’t see sh!t.

If you want to be a cleaner listen to us and learn from us! 

Like I said, I’m not the biggest badazz drain cleaner out there, but I know things.

Get your google voice set up and we can talk for free. I just don’t know about boarders. Should work if you have WiFi.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

How about a phone card? I don't have energy to play with the phone settings or wife High. I don't even know where to start anyway.

I highly doubt he's going to go for the camera, I suggested in on the phone and wasn't thrilled even though I didn't shoot any price. I brought is twice on jobs and both times people just didn't want to pay.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

AAV,s are fine but do REQUIRE one atmospheric vent for positive pressure. A toilet does not need a vent to operate properly, just a clear unclogged line with no bellys to hold water.
I remember this conversation before. Siphonic action.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

PLUMB TIME said:


> AAV,s are fine but do REQUIRE one atmospheric vent for positive pressure. A toilet does not need a vent to operate properly.



I'll disagree with that. Here we can use 3" for the W.C. and AAV's are not allowed by Plb. Code. All fixtures must be vented one way or another We can wet vent in some circumstances. I have see a flat 2" vent wetted by a tub/shower & lav not allow for a good flush. Same W.C. properly vented flush great.

Now a W.C. with a 4" Branch I agree should be OK. Free air movement above the flow. I know I'll get a lot of crap on this, I'm glad Illinois does not allow for AAV's. They suck, can foul, let pests in and are just plain not how a professional should install plumbing. To me that is handy-hack work.:devil3:

Old rule of thumb. Gurgle when flushing clog, gurgle after water movement trap siphoning.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Not to be taken out of context. Everything has its place and I think a Studor aav when installed correctly is fine.


As an Illinois Journeyman and a Wisconsin Master I will say it is nice to use an aav when roughing-in an 800 sq ft kitchen addition on a slab with the island prep sink right in the middle.


That being said, when an atmospheric vent can be used it should be.Running a loop vent up down and back over 20 feet to the nearest wall,in my opinion, can be better than a studor.


I will stand firm on the toilet vent. If it is not flushing properly there is a blockage or belly in the line. A vent is only releasing the positive pressure caused by the blockage or partial blockage. Remove the cause, no problem.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Meant, not better than an aav as opposed to running 20 ft laterally under a slab. My bad.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

GAN said:


> Old rule of thumb. Gurgle when flushing clog, gurgle after water movement trap siphoning.


Interesting, I'm leaning even more on the camera. I bet this old house has roots in the front yard.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

PLUMB TIME said:


> …………………. A toilet does not need a vent to operate properly, just a clear unclogged line with no bellys to hold water.
> …………………………………..




























I will disagree also. 


As I posted {post #10} I have seen W/C's not flush at all due to lacking a vent. Once the vent problem was taken care of, then the W/C flushed. This was seen personally; not something I heard or read in a book.


I'm trying to get into a pissing match here, just help my fellow colleagues.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I also agree, a toilet needs a vent. The toilet worked fine as soon as I removed the AAV.

https://www.plumbingzone.com/f7/adventures-soap-opera-80969/index29/#post1186394


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## Standard Drain (Feb 17, 2016)

I get mainline calls alot where they h/o thinks there is a blockage in the vent. Personally after 3 years I have yet to witness a clogged roof vent.

Gurgling and slow draining is the sing of a partial blockage. Its the sign that the line is in need of an inspection, then usually a snaking.

Typically if they have a pvc line outside and the original cast iron inside there is still a chance the schmuck who installed the pvc outside could have not properly bedded the pipe and the cast-to-pvc connection could be bad.


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> I'm trying to get into a pissing match here


Let's do it. :vs_laugh:

I sort of agree with Bill, because vents are there to protect the trap seal from siphoning, yet the toilet's design requires a siphon to operate. 

But on the flip side, that is a large volume of water entering the pipe when the toilet is flushed and if there isn't a clear vent SOMEWHERE downstream, I could see the airlock thing happening and then poor flushing. 

I just don't necessarily see the toilet needing it's own vent. Just a downstream vent somewhere in the system.









































I also don't know everything, so there's that. :vs_laugh:


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Hypothetically, if the only fixture,i.e. toilet, going to the main or proper septic system no vent would be needed for the toilet to flush properly.


The vent is for the protection of the trap seal.


The toilet flushes by the creation of a siphon caused by the water from the tank.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

I'm not sure if its still there, but a house built by Kohler in Kohler Wisc. was vented with 3/4" pipe.



Everything worked fine.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

*Result are in....*

More hack diy plumbing. No vents what so ever for the bathroom, the kitchen and shower and laundry room.

He had me install a new toilet, so abs flange(a single drywall screw) Flange askew so he drilled to elongate the slots, with a horn on top then a brass flange on top of that and another horn and all this below finished floor.

I could of spent 5 day redoing the mess. He didn't want me to open walls on 2 floors to put vents and a hole through the roof. He will live without vents, gurgling drains smelling sewer gasses in the living room. The living room is open to the shower stall and laundry. The wall opening is about 4 feet. No problem taking a shower while having guests, They'll sit watching you lather, Home made peep show! :vs_OMG:

How about this nifty trick, a P-trap and vent combo!


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

If I walked into that I’d be making one of two calls. My inspector or code compliance. Legally I’d have to.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

OpenSights said:


> If I walked into that I’d be making one of two calls. My inspector or code compliance. Legally I’d have to.


No such thing here.... A nice free for all, I'm even seeing plumbing companies do what ever.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

That’s too bad.


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## JohnnieSqueeze (Mar 23, 2016)

camera and rodder. 

may want to send that rodder up the vent to the roof too. 

knock that “chicken of the tree” nest out if there











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

PLUMB TIME said:


> Hypothetically, if the only fixture,i.e. toilet, going to the main or proper septic system no vent would be needed for the toilet to flush properly.
> 
> 
> The vent is for the protection of the trap seal.
> ...


Yes your hypothetical, especially if 4" is utilized, free air movement about the water line.

Try dropping a straw into a glass of water, hold your finger on top and pull it up. Water stays in straw (no vent). Take finger off water moves (vented).

This is extreme case, but relevant.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

GAN said:


> Yes your hypothetical, especially if 4" is utilized, free air movement about the water line.
> 
> Try dropping a straw into a glass of water, hold your finger on top and pull it up. Water stays in straw (no vent). Take finger off water moves (vented).
> 
> This is extreme case, but relevant.


I sorta agree with both of you..lol....the finger on straw doesnt represent a flushed toilet, while the finger holds the water in, the finger is a solid unmovable object, when a bowl is flushed the suction of the water will pull the trap seal water and thus let in air for a proverbial vent..so in true reality the vent is to protect the trap seal, not assist with the flush..now it may with todays low flush toilets make a difference because of such a small amount of water is flushed it may not create enough suction the pull the trap seal and you get an incomplete flush, but I have opened walls of 60 to 100 year old houses with no vents on anything and the fixtures have worked all those years...:smile:


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

GAN said:


> Try dropping a straw into a glass of water, hold your finger on top and pull it up. Water stays in straw (no vent). Take finger off water moves (vented).
> 
> This is extreme case, but relevant.


It's what I use to explain to customers so they can understand.


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

Hand sink has a vent that is capped a foot above the tee. Kinda like a finger over a straw......


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