# To dig or not to dig.



## BigD (Jan 22, 2010)

I had a question for the licenced and journeyman plumbers out there. Do you guys still dig, or do you let your apprentices do that. It would comfort me knowing once I become as great & skilled as you guys, that I'll never have to hold a shovel again.:rockon:


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

BigD said:


> I had a question for the licenced and journeyman plumbers out there. Do you guys still dig, or do you let your apprentices do that. It would comfort me knowing once I become as great & skilled as you guys, that I'll never have to hold a shovel again.:rockon:


It's a fantasy, don't kid yourself. The only way you will not hold a shovel again is if you are 
A) The boss of a large enough crew that you are sitting in an office all day
B) Work for said boss, and the crew is a large commercial crew where everyone has one job day in and day out (ie. setting tubs everyday for a year)
C) Go into inspections (not recommended)
D) Retire

Ask Plumber Bill if he ever has to touch a shovel, or Pipe Rat


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

My son and I hand dug 60' sewer replacement yesterday, tunneled 4' under the porch to attach on to CI. We had it back-filled and sod back in place @ 6pm. If a shovel doesn't fit your hands, you might want to look into a different job. I'm just sayin'


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

I still have a hard time finding the on/off switch on the darn thing....so I use it with aggression.

This has to be the funniest post of the year. Ask SlickRick when the last time he was behind a shovel.................LOL


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

There is a way, tricky as it may be, and possibly impossible.
Hire 2 apprentices that are really good fast diggers and hope that they don't both call in on the same day.
The shovel is as integral a law of plumbing as water runs down hill. You may want to get used to it.


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## PlumberJake (Nov 15, 2010)

My very first day of working with my Grandpa (at 13 years old) he dropped me off with 2 shovels, a 5 gallon bucket, jug of water, lunch pail, tape measure, and instructions on how deep and how far I needed to dig around a house foundation. He came back 4 hours later to check on me. Seems he only took the job to see if I was a good enough worker for him to invest the time to train me. 

Digging by hand is an invaluable skill in this business, but I for one avoid it......... just like Grandpa did.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

To this day I still dont mind digging.... there is really no thinking involved.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

I don't think anyone "wants" to dig, but it is necessary. 
Today I dug up a septic tank to open the lid and see what was going on. It didn't rain here from mid July until Mid October and even with our douser yesterday, the ground is still like concrete. I grabbed my apprentices (the shovel, spade, and pick:laughing and got to work. The tank was 20" deep and even if I had helper, I would have still dug. What else would I have done, stand and watch.:no:


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Big D I am starting to think your in the wrong business my man. You just started and you are more concerned with how much you will make in the future and when you can lay down the shovel.  At this point in your career you should be concerned about learning all you can about this trade and being the best you can be. Then and ONLY then will you prosper and the fruit of your efforts will follow. For now.......wax on - wax off Danielson. The path shall be revealed only to the worthy.


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## BigD (Jan 22, 2010)

What else would I have done, stand and watch.:no:[/QUOTE]

When I get rich, thats what I look forward to do, hopefully.:drink:


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## BigD (Jan 22, 2010)

What I'm trying to really say is does it get any easier. will my muscles stop aching, will my body get use to it.:wheelchair:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

BigD said:


> What else would I have done, stand and watch.:no:


When I get rich, thats what I look forward to do, hopefully.:drink:[/QUOTE]


You're a hoot.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

BigD said:


> What I'm trying to really say is does it get any easier. will my muscles stop aching, will my body get use to it.:wheelchair:


The more you do the easier it will get..... some people pay big bucks to go to the gym.... for half the amount of exercise you are getting paid to do.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

BigD said:


> What I'm trying to really say is does it get any easier. will my muscles stop aching, will my body get use to it.:wheelchair:


That depends if someone has shown you how to use a shovel properly. There is a technique to digging.


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## BigD (Jan 22, 2010)

slickrick said:


> That depends if someone has shown you how to use a shovel properly. There is a technique to digging.


On a serious note, as a 1st year apprentice, I come to the realization that I don't know everything, could you share some techiques with me. any advice, I would be in debted to you.:hang:


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

BigD said:


> What I'm trying to really say is does it get any easier. will my muscles stop aching, will my body get use to it.:wheelchair:


:laughing::laughing: As a 1st yr apprentice, one July it was hot. I mean 105 heat index all week. We had to dig in water, sewer, and gas lines between an old building and a new addition. It was kinda caty corner in a triangle where the building met. 60' of trenches total and some hard digging through clay and rocks. We couldn't get the excavator in there much, so it was mostly hand digging. Me and my master, that's right the boss, hand dug it and laid the lines in in just under a day and a half. 
The following week we had to run new water lines in some single level apartments because of pinholes, including water service. the water service and meter were in a courtyard with sidewalks everywhere. We had to had dig everybit of it by hand, very hot, no wind. 
Everything I have had to dig since has been easier, I'll never forget that summer.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

BigD said:


> On a serious note, as a 1st year apprentice, I come to the realization that I don't know everything, could you share some techiques with me. any advice, I would be in debted to you.:hang:


Part of it is having the right shovel for the job. You also don't want the cheapest shovel you can buy, always check to be sure the head is square with the handle. You can use the pick to break the surface if it is hard ground, and once you have broken through you can take small chunks off of the sides. 
If you are digging a trench, don't try and take out too much on one stroke. It is much faster and easier to dig a trench a shovels depth to start, because you can develop a rhythm and move quick. Go back to the start of the trench and start over until it is deep enough.

A sharp shovel, as with any tool, it much easier to use. Use the shovels leverage to break the ground loose. Use your arms and shoulders and legs to carry the weight and transfer the leverage, not your back.

I find on days I'll be in the sun digging that caffeine and sugar are not my friends.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

BigD said:


> On a serious note, as a 1st year apprentice, I come to the realization that I don't know everything, could you share some techiques with me. any advice, I would be in debted to you.:hang:


 
You need to find a plumber to show you. There is a system of digging and cleaning out that make the task much more efficient. Most of the work is put on the legs and butt, the largest muscles, not the back.


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## yoda (Nov 23, 2010)

I liked to dig to get rid of the stress of, that account balance at the wholesalers, or that 3 different builders want their houses done by the end of the week though they haven't paid yet, or the wife wanting the money - but you at home, or the tub unit that's back-ordered........... digging can be a nonthinking joy sometimes.


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## mssp (Dec 15, 2009)

I have been plumbing for 26 years and hold a shovel at least one day a week. It gets easier depending on the material you are digging in. But your back starts to hurt all the time. If you dont like digging you should get out of plumbing


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## markb (Jun 11, 2009)

I just got a nice reminder about shoring and the value of trench boxes today.

Inside of an industrial facility, a 10' section of old 8" cast iron needed to be replaced 12' under the slab. 

Unfortunately we were only able to dig a trench 4' wide and 8' long, machinery was in the way. 

All the soil was hard sand and had to be hand dug. 

I was digging alone that evening and thought plywood and 2x4s would be sufficient as a trench box. 

At about 10' deep the sand began to slide down and the 2x4s started sliding out from between the plywood! I ran up the ladder just in time to get out before the hole caved in. 

I was EXTREMELY fortunate to get out alive. 

Lesson the the story is, be safe. Don't ever be afraid to say that a job is unsafe and you require proper safety precautions before beginning. Read up on Occupation Health and Safety requirements for trades and become familiar with them.

Here is Canada the CSAO is in main body that teaches safety. Their website is full of useful stuff, including trenching.

http://www.csao.org/UploadFiles/Safety_Manual/Hazards/Trenching.pdf

You can download all of the safety information they publish by reading the following document. I have one printed out and ready for reading whenever I need it. 

http://www.csao.org/images/pfiles/16_M029.pdf

Also, on digging, don't think too much when you dig. Thinking makes you tired  Just keep digging.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

I never ask anything from somebody that I won't also do myself. That includes digging, crawling, attic work, dirty sewage, etc. If there's room for 2 people to dig, we both dig. If there's only room for one, we take turns. While it's nice to sit and rest, I get antsy watching somebody work.






Paul


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## LEAD INGOT (Jul 15, 2009)

Kid, I've been at it for 20 years. This summer I hand dug right around 25 houses, by myself. If it's kicking your ash that much it's time to quit plumbing, or get serious. Were not splitting atoms, or curing cancer, it's digging a hole in the Earth. Just one more of the necessary evils that come with it.


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## luv2plumb (Apr 30, 2010)

BigD said:


> On a serious note, as a 1st year apprentice, I come to the realization that I don't know everything, could you share some techiques with me. any advice, I would be in debted to you.:hang:


1st year apprentice huh......want some advice? how about you quit complaining and do your job. Every post you have made has been about how can you get out of work and make more money in a trade you just started in. 

Dude it is getting old. If* YOU* do make it another 5 years you will still have to bust your ass everyday to do the job you love. After all being a plumber is not just a job...it is your livelihood.

Rant is now over....please continue.


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## Jeff (Oct 12, 2010)

Slickrick is correct, there is a technique to digging. I spent 3 years digging drain tiles, I learned a few thing's. Alway's use a wooden shovel, not the fiberglass junk, Sears is the best, break it re-turn it. The biggest tip I have is, I cut 1 1/2"
off both sides of the shovel, makes a night to day difference! Have Fun...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

On a professional note, there is much to be taught and learned about hand digging. None of it will happen on a keyboard so I won't make the attempt.

On a personal note, you should search elsewhere for your career path and passion for it seems obvious your heart and mind are not prepared to conquer the trade of plumbing head on. And the trade of plumbing can not be conquered any other way. I wish you well.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

What happens when you have to use a jackhammer to dig? I have to agree with Biz, you may not be cut out for this kind of work. If it were easy, everyone would be plumbers.


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## bartnc37 (Feb 24, 2009)

I do mainly service and I usually have to look for my shovel every now and then to make sure i haven't lost it. Not saying i don't move some dirt from time to time but i really cant remember the last time i spent all day with a shovel in my hands. 
Granted around here our sewer-waters are 6 to 7 feet deep and most people are not going to pay me 100 bucks an hour to dig for two days when a mini can have the same thing done in a couple of hours.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

bartnc37 said:


> I do mainly service and I usually have to look for my shovel every now and then to make sure i haven't lost it. Not saying i don't move some dirt from time to time but i really cant remember the last time i spent all day with a shovel in my hands.
> Granted around here our sewer-waters are 6 to 7 feet deep and most people are not going to pay me 100 bucks an hour to dig for two days when a mini can have the same thing done in a couple of hours.


In the south the sewer is usually only a few inches deep to start, and our water lines only have to be 18" deep in N. Arkansas


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## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

There are going to be days where you wish you could be digging instead of whatever it is you are in to.

It is natural to wonder about your future. It is natural to question if there isn't a better way (I guess there was a time before shovels, but that time may predate pipes).

I am not going to suggest you give up or try another profession, but I am going to suggest that you "give in" and give it your all. You'll get more out of it that way.

--Will


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## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

When I started as an apprentice, I did nothing but undergrounds for ten straight months. I have spent a lot of quality time with Jack Hammer and his girlfriend, Jenny Rater in my career.:thumbup:

To this day, I consider a shovel every bit as much one of my tools as I do anything else in my box.

I'll admit it's my least favorite tool though:thumbsup:

No plumber should ever consider himself too good to dig.


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## bartnc37 (Feb 24, 2009)

plumbpro said:


> In the south the sewer is usually only a few inches deep to start, and our water lines only have to be 18" deep in N. Arkansas


 I've had a few septic lines on cottages and the sort that were only a foot maybe 18 inches deep and i'll dig em by hand but like i said around here that is usually not the case. Usually the most work my shovel gets is relocating basement bath rough ins. The excavator we use for outdoor work is pretty good, he may have actually been born in the cab of his backhoe, and when he's done there usually isn't much bedding and adjusting left to do.


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## ap plumbing (Nov 9, 2010)

BigD said:


> On a serious note, as a 1st year apprentice, I come to the realization that I don't know everything, could you share some techiques with me. any advice, I would be in debted to you.:hang:


 sure i sing , i been working on the railroad ,:gun_bandana::thumbup:when i dig seems to work lol


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Jeez man, its only work. 

Or, as my apprentice says, its only work and money. 

You tell that kid to dig, or hand tamp, and he'll dig and tamp untill you tell him to stop. Sometimes, too much.He may not be vety proficient at it yet, but he makes up for it in effort. 

Go hang out with a mason for a couple of days. THEN you'll really learn a thing or 2. My buddy is a mason, and that mofo will dig circles around anyone. 

And yes, I run my 420D, then jump out, get in the hole and help the guys. I'm in the ditch more than I'm in the machine.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

BigD said:


> On a serious note, as a 1st year apprentice, I come to the realization that I don't know anything. could you share some techiques with me. any advice, I would be in debted to you.:hang:


I fixed that one for you....


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## plumber666 (Sep 19, 2010)

Just before I got into plumbing, I worked for a semi-unscrupulous contractor that was always just on the edge of doing illegal/immoral stuff. One day he had a dump truck load of sand delivered to site and dumped it in a fire lane. A neighbour freaked, and went to phone the fire department, so he handed me a shovel and said to bomb it over the bank, off the lane. About 20 minutes later the sand was gone. The plumber on site said, "Shawn, if you can use your brain like you use that shovel, I can make a good plumber out of you." 2 days later I got layed off. When I asked why, my boss said I'd be starting with the plumber on Monday.
So, everything we do at work gets noticed. Try being the guy that gets noticed for trying hard, and given 'er, and using your brain. Cause the guys that get noticed for complaining eventually stop getting asked to do stuff. They get canned instead.


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## Castiron (May 4, 2010)

BigD said:


> I had a question for the licenced and journeyman plumbers out there. Do you guys still dig, or do you let your apprentices do that. It would comfort me knowing once I become as great & skilled as you guys, that I'll never have to hold a shovel again.:rockon:


Also 1st year - didn't have to do digging much so far but A LOT of jackhammering. It goes with the job, I see the older apprentices and Journeymen doing their share as well. So here you go.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Jeez man, its only work.
> 
> Or, as my apprentice says, its only work and money.
> 
> ...


 
I was a mason's laborer for one summer. All I did was mix mud, feed block to the masons (they were piece workers, not hourly), and when the wall got higher with more courses of block, I had to raise the scaffolding and the planks. Believe me, plumbing is easier that being a mason's helper.

By the way, I would shovel sand against the tide all day if someone would pay me. :thumbsup: Translation: I don't mind digging, that's how I put food on the table.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

On a similar note, the best employers I've ever had were the ones that would work along side you, regardless of the job or business field.


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## Pipe Art (Sep 11, 2009)

Laziness may appear attractive but hard work gives satisfaction.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I seldom dig, the odd trench in a basement, or factory. Being union, laborers do the digging, we put the pipe in.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Big D I do a lot of service work and seldom operate a hand shovel.

If you were an apprentice riding on my truck, if there was any digging to be done you would surely be doing it.

Somehow By what you post I doubt you would ride on my truck for long...

I have been know to kick guys off my truck...:whistling2:


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## Kevan (Jul 5, 2010)

As winter comes on, the shovel doubles as a body warmer as well as a digging tool. You use so many muscles when digging, you become warm very quickly and it takes away the misery of working outside in the cold.

I'll second what was mentioned earlier: get a file and sharpen that thing.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

I usean angle grinder for mine, you'll be amazed at the difference a sharpened shovel makes


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

plumbpro said:


> I usean angle grinder for mine, you'll be amazed at the difference a sharpened shovel makes


 
True true I learned that trick from some landscrapers. The razor sharp shovel cuts through the roots well.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*I have the tools*

I have the tools in my truck, both a tunnelling spade and a short handle shovel.....

I try my best to avoid useing them...but on occasion
they are necessary.......

we did miles and miles of slab work back in the early 80s and I have had enough of it ....

we do break up concrete floors on occasion to install 
new bathrooms and sewage pits in basements,,,

*a little digging is ok and good for the soul ....once in a great while....*

but anyone who brags about digging and tells you he 
likes to dig all day long is simply a working fool and has got
something to prove to everyone....
and I suggest you avoid ever working for one of them kind
because they would rather beat themsleves and you up rather than 
rent a tractor :laughing::yes: 

..


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

Mr. I dislike digging. Don't like it at all. Plus I think I'm bad at it. Now that I do service I don't do much but I still do it. It's part of the job. For me it never got easier. just food for thought if you think your going to stay in the trade.


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## brass plumbing (Jul 30, 2008)

*don't ask someone to do something u won't do yourself*

nothing is beneath me, accept mobile homes. i won't give my helper work i won't do myself.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I own a mini excavator, I just don't want to put hrs. on it.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

I dont mind hand digging, it soothes the soul, turn on the radio and just dig. Dont have to do any thinking, just digging.Some people spend thousands of dollars on gym memberships and we get paid to work out.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

*It's all in the mind*

These days people seem ashamed of the shovel work. If this is you your in the wrong trade. Too many easier things to do I guess. It will seperate the men from the boys. If this isn't you move on. Simple.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*you are kidding....right??*



slickrick said:


> I own a mini excavator, I just don't want to put hrs. on it.


 
its better to put hours on your back than on the mini excavator???:no:

I know that it all depends on the job, and sometimes they are so 
small that you just have to dig for a short while...


we tried to install a man hole late this fall in Indiana, for a 
back flow preventer... I was gonna let a helper and myself hand dig it 
, but the ground was so dry and hard that sparks flew when the shovel hit it....
by noon we had barely made a dent in it... with lots of roots


instead of turning this into a two day event, I ran over at lunch and 
rented a little excavator just to get it done that afternoon.. the total cost under $200.....



as far as telling yourself that digging is great excersize.....you are nuts....
I would rather be working out at the gym any day looking 
at the nice view all around me:yes::yes:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

MM, yes I was kidding. The last sewer replacment would have been more work to repair the sprinkler system than it was worth. Good soil and no roots, just a bad orangeburg line.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I would get pissed off when doing undergrounds in about 10 degree weather, with 8 hours looking at you, and just being able to barely chip the clay, and the foreman would drive by, piss and moan about the lack of progress and grab the shovel and swing like a wildman for about 5 minutes, throw you the shovel and say, "that's how it's done." Then go back and get in his nice warm van.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

jjbex said:


> I would get pissed off when doing undergrounds in about 10 degree weather, with 8 hours looking at you, and just being able to barely chip the clay, and the foreman would drive by, piss and moan about the lack of progress and grab the shovel and swing like a wildman for about 5 minutes, throw you the shovel and say, "that's how it's done." Then go back and get in his nice warm van.


 
Move to Florida, sugar sand without frozen soil. :laughing: The digging's easy breezy and you get a bronzed bod while working.


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## sewerman (Sep 21, 2008)

all depends on how good or lousey the ground is. that determines if i call a labor service or get a track hoe ect...... i only use the shovel to adjust pipe pitch & bed the pipe. gettin to old for that


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Palm roots are the devil as is saturated clay soil. Tight hamstrings make for a sore back.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

The ground in this area is either clay or rock, or a combination of clay and rocks. Further south and east you have mushy sand. I have to pull a shovel out for something at least once a week.


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## chuckscott (Oct 20, 2010)

I don't know about everyone else, but digging jobs seem to come in all at once and then nothing for weeks, sometimes months. I had my first hand dig job in months last week. I have another this week and a bid out for another. 

Take the good with the bad cuz it all pays the same.... Still hurts though..


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

The worst digging is when you have to bust out a concrete floor in a basement then dig with the concrete rubble in the ditch. It's such a pain because the concrete is a pain to get out of the ditch. I almost always use the tile spade bit for the jackhammer. It just takes a while. 

Plus in an existing basement there isn't very many places to put rubble and you have to carry it up the stairs in buckets.


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