# One for the copper elite- long post



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I received a call yesterday for a leak detection/location and slab repair. The home is 10 years old with loop and manifold copper water distribution system, pvc water service, pvc dwv, cmu exterior walls, metal frame indoors, monolithic slab on grade. This is a pretty standard call and house type in my area. I average about 3-4 calls like this a week. 

Cutting the McDonalds arches:


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Charging the offending line to verify the leak. Notice the use of pex and a sharkbite to quickly fabricate the rig.

Next we ping out the other manifold. I could pull out the navitrack but this is so much faster. Notice the use of pex again. Notice the condition of the copper manifold. I cut it open for the customer's viewing.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

oops forgot the 2nd pic


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

The other mani is on the other side of the bathroom under the t/s valve(delta crap as usual). Notice how they cut the right # of red and blue sleeves and then put the 2 reds on the cold with 1 blue, and then the remaining 2 blue ones on the hot mani. Ahh craftsmenship at it's finest.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Now for the attic work. 3/4 pex is dropped in both walls and tied in.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Manifolds rebuilt.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

The whole thing took 3 hours including cutting open the mani for you to see and taking pictures along the way. Oh yeah, got ta pimp my ride.


----------



## RHplumbing (Sep 23, 2008)

That could never happen in pa where I am from , everthing would freeze in the attic , but it sure looks like it works well in fl


----------



## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Protech said:


> Notice the use of pex again. Notice the condition of the copper manifold. I cut it open for the customer's viewing.


Ok, copper turns green. What's wrong with it?


----------



## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

RHplumbing said:


> That could never happen in pa where I am from , everthing would freeze in the attic , but it sure looks like it works well in fl


*Welcome to the forum, pull up a seat & introduce yourself in the introductions section.*


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Marlin said:


> Ok, copper turns green. What's wrong with it?


Uh, it's leaking. That's why I've been called out. When you scrape of the oxidation with a wire brush you will see the underlying pitting. Those pits are future pinholes.

I'll post a pick of the pitting.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

pic of manifold at job.

pics of manifold after brushing off the oxides. I hit the 1/2 leg with torch to enhance the detail.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

continued


----------



## Double-A (Aug 17, 2008)

I'm lost here. You removed the copper above the slap, but reused what was under the slab?

What is to prevent that from leaking tomorrow from the same pitting issues the stuff you replaced had?


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Double-A said:


> I'm lost here. You removed the copper above the slap, but reused what was under the slab?
> 
> What is to prevent that from leaking tomorrow from the same pitting issues the stuff you replaced had?


 
Nothing. HO does not want to spend the $ on a total repipe. I told him that I could charge him to do an electronic leak location, and then charge him to do a slab repair that would replace about 12" of pipe underground and he would then have to fix his floor and anything else that was damaged in the process of accessing the leak.

OR

I could just do a bypass for about the same price and replace the whole loop and both manifolds and he doesn't have to fix his floor.


----------



## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

*Electronic leak location?*

*Um, shut off the main and connect a gauge to the system.*


----------



## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Leak detector....listening for the sound of the pin hole leak(s).

The job he did is very common in my parts. However I still get request for me to open up the floor do the repair. Stupid as all hell but cheaper. 

I have a question, how did you know where all the mani's would be located? Was it a big house? And how the hell did you bang it out in a few hours? Your faster than me!!


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Mad ninja skills:thumbsup:


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Ok, ok. I give up a trade secret. cut the 1st mani open. fish 1/4" pex down the offending loop. When the stick has met with resistance, have the owner jubber the pex while you walk around an listen for it tapping on da udder mani. As far as the speed goes, it just comes to ya after a 1000 repipes or so. I can walk thru a house and I build a mental model of the home. When I go up in the attic I use markers like ducts, wires, vent stacks etc to keep my bearings. Cimb up, poke 2 holes in da top plates sling da pex and go down stairs to build ya manis.:thumbup:


----------



## TotalPlumber (Sep 30, 2008)

Protech said:


> Ok, ok. I give up a trade secret. cut the 1st mani open. fish 1/4" pex down the offending loop. When the stick has met with resistance, have the owner jubber the pex while you walk around an listen for it tapping on da udder mani. As far as the speed goes, it just comes to ya after a 1000 repipes or so. I can walk thru a house and I build a mental model of the home. When I go up in the attic I use markers like ducts, wires, vent stacks etc to keep my bearings. Cimb up, poke 2 holes in da top plates sling da pex and go down stairs to build ya manis.:thumbup:


Very common repair in Alabama, as well. I've even converted many (approx 20) of these jobs to homeowners insurance jobs as well. Pays great, and if you speak intelligently to the claims examiner, you'll get a whole-house repipe out of it! It's in the insurance company's best interests to get all the pressure pipe out of the slab! You have to sell it to the insurance rep. a little bit...no problem if you know what you're talking about. I have even sub'd the sheetrock repair as well, and made a tidy markup!


----------



## TotalPlumber (Sep 30, 2008)

Protech said:


> continued


Look closely, the ends of the copper pipe haven't been de-burred on installation, check out the ends of the one on the right, very badly pinched in! sloppy, sloppy....


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

right you are, but that's not what killed it. The water hear brings havoc to copper pipe no matter how well you put it in.


----------



## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

Marlin said:


> Ok, copper turns green. What's wrong with it?


Great cut away on the manifold!!!!!!! 

Because copper here turns green and starts blowing pin holes everywhere. Green from a little minor flux residue or age is one thing.... green from water that lacks copper friendly characteristics is entirely another. I seen that scenario 100's of times. Sometimes so coroded that you can almost crumble L copper in your hand. I have repiped a ton of homes less than 10 years old with L copper and a completely failed system. He is right in some of his pex arguements for our area.


----------



## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

TotalPlumber said:


> Look closely, the ends of the copper pipe haven't been de-burred on installation, check out the ends of the one on the right, very badly pinched in! sloppy, sloppy....


True. But that's not what caused the problems. I have seen copper erosion from not deburring the pipes. It follows a pattern. It's not random like this pitting is.


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

The green patina is what protects the copper from corrosion, the pits are likely cause from velocity erosion from the unreamed joints. That's not to say water chemistry is not playing a part but if you do not have patina from oxidation your copper will corrode.

Mark


----------



## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> The green patina is what protects the copper from corrosion, the pits are likely cause from velocity erosion from the unreamed joints. That's not to say water chemistry is not playing a part but if you do not have patina from oxidation your copper will corrode.
> 
> Mark


*NOT to come off like an ass kiss...but for those who don't know...*
*He makes a living investigating failures of plumbing systems.*


----------



## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> The green patina is what protects the copper from corrosion, the pits are likely cause from velocity erosion from the unreamed joints. That's not to say water chemistry is not playing a part but if you do not have patina from oxidation your copper will corrode.
> 
> Mark


Mark,

When you say water chemistry.... I have to ask. You may have seen me posting about our RO city water. All of the plumbers in town feel that coppers all out failure in our community is directly attributed RO water. However, the city did an "investigation" and said it was attributed to flux as the cause. Who's right? Either way pex/cpvc makes the problem go away.


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Proud Plumber said:


> Mark,
> 
> When you say water chemistry.... I have to ask. You may have seen me posting about our RO city water. All of the plumbers in town feel that coppers all out failure in our community is directly attributed RO water. However, the city did an "investigation" and said it was attributed to flux as the cause. Who's right?


The city investigating itself? Sounds like a conflict of interest.:no:


----------



## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

service guy said:


> The city investigating itself? Sounds like a conflict of interest.:no:


LOL we did not call it an investigation rather an "investigation" the quotes take it to a new level. They also did "lab analysis":thumbsup:


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Proud Plumber said:


> Mark,
> 
> When you say water chemistry.... I have to ask. You may have seen me posting about our RO city water. All of the plumbers in town feel that coppers all out failure in our community is directly attributed RO water. However, the city did an "investigation" and said it was attributed to flux as the cause. Who's right? Either way pex/cpvc makes the problem go away.


Every area is a little different and without knowing all of the facts it is tough to say for sure. The pictures of the sample posted clearly shows damage from localize velocity erosion. In my area of California the water destroys soft copper but not hard copper. In Las Vegas the water destroys standard plumbing brass but is okay with Bronze and red brass. Some of the chemicals (poly ortho phosphates) added to water to protect copper may have turned out to hurt copper. It is the responsibility of every plumber to know what materials are compatible with the environment they are being installed in.

Mark


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

The leak was about 3 ft away from the manifold. No flux there. Furthermore, I've cut open many lines that were naked copper with no green color or green crusty coating. They never leaked. I've cut open lines that were actually a rust colored orange that never leaked. In my experience, chlorination plays a big roll in pitting. 

The green that you see in the manifold is copper chloride. When chlorine is introduced into the water (such as in the form of sodium hypochlorite, aka bleach) chloride ions dissociate in the aqueous solution and bind with elemental copper (the pipe) to form copper chloride. The green salt can have an insulating effect from further oxidation of the base metal, in effect becoming a barrier between the water and elemental copper pipe. Vibration, rapid thermal expansion, physical deformation, shot peening from suspended solids the oxidized layer and present a new layer a bare metal for further oxidation. The important thing to note here is that metal was removed in the single displacement reaction. If allowed to continue, it will end up going right thru to the other side and you end up with a pine hole.

The shot peening of the oxidized layer and subsequent re-oxidation is known in engineering circles as “erosion corrosion”. This is where not reaming your cuts gets you into trouble. The lip left from the cutters will cause eddies to form as the water becomes turbulent over the lip. Turbulence and subsequent E/C will form at lip first but can cause E/C to occur even in straight pipe sections if the system is undersized and flow speed is too high. This is different than what occurs in RO water.

RO water is soft, meaning it has low or no dissolved solids. Its PH is slightly acidic. The combination means that copper atoms are free to simply detach from the elemental lattice and are washed away in elemental form. Copper is leached away regardless of flow speed but will increase as areas of pipe are subjected to more cycles of use as the water can only hold so many copper ions before it is saturated. You can tell if the water is ion saturated because it will have metallic taste and will leave green salt deposits when evaporated (green ring under dripping faucet).

I should get back to the point. Patina IS the same stuff you see on the inside of the manifold. The difference is that the patina from flux (zinc chloride) is the formation of copper (II) chloride on the pipe ONCE. The salt seen on the inside of the manifold is the CONTINOUS formation of CuCl2, which will eventually eat all the way thru. The reason pin holes do sometimes form where the flux resides is that the flux got a head start in that area.

If you check back to my post on the old solar system in the pics section in a bit I'll show you a collector less than 15 years old that I just replaced. What was the difference? The 30 year old system was on un-chlorinated well water. The yougin was on chlorinated county water. I've seen an overwhelming correlation between chlorination and pin holes in my area. Less than 1% of the copper repipes I do are on un-chlorinated systems. Sometimes in the mornings, there is so much chlorine in the water it burns the eyes when showering. It smells strongly of chlorine.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> Every area is a little different and without knowing all of the facts it is tough to say for sure. The pictures of the sample posted clearly shows damage from localize velocity erosion. In my area of California the water destroys soft copper but not hard copper. In Las Vegas the water destroys standard plumbing brass but is okay with Bronze and red brass. Some of the chemicals (poly ortho phosphates) added to water to protect copper may have turned out to hurt copper. It is the responsibility of every plumber to know what materials are compatible with the environment they are being installed in.
> 
> Mark


Really

Could you explain how you came to that conclusion?


----------



## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

Nice job PRO TECH. What equipment do you use for your leak detection?


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

xlt30, navitrack, aircompressor blood hound(jk)


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Protech said:


> Really
> 
> Could you explain how you came to that conclusion?


 
The proximity of the erosion and it's pattern in relationship to the unreamed joint. Again I am not doubting your theory that water chemistry had something to do with it but after working as an Expert Witness related to plumbing litigations for over 20-years I have spent my fair share of time in Metallurgy and Water Chemistry Labs. An unreamed joint causes a turbulent flow which prolongs the amount of time it takes for the natural occurrence of patina to occur. While the raw copper is left unprotected it can start to corrode. As you have already noted soft water will exacerbate the corrosion.

Mark


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> The proximity of the erosion and it's pattern in relationship to the unreamed joint. Again I am not doubting your theory that water chemistry had something to do with it but after working as an Expert Witness related to plumbing litigations for over 20-years I have spent my fair share of time in Metallurgy and Water Chemistry Labs. An unreamed joint causes a turbulent flow which prolongs the amount of time it takes for the natural occurrence of patina to occur. While the raw copper is left unprotected it can start to corrode. As you have already noted soft water will exacerbate the corrosion.
> 
> Mark


Wow, you really know your stuff!:thumbsup:


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> The proximity of the erosion and it's pattern in relationship to the unreamed joint. Again I am not doubting your theory that water chemistry had something to do with it but after working as an Expert Witness related to plumbing litigations for over 20-years I have spent my fair share of time in Metallurgy and Water Chemistry Labs. An unreamed joint causes a turbulent flow which prolongs the amount of time it takes for the natural occurrence of patina to occur. While the raw copper is left unprotected it can start to corrode. As you have already noted soft water will exacerbate the corrosion.
> 
> Mark


I'm going to be perfectly blunt, I think your full of ****. Why don’t you circle the "patterns" in relation ship to the un-reamed joints. E/C from cutter lip shows up about 1/8" away from the lip with an undercut. In other words a concave rib. Could you circle these patterns for me and explain the mechanism of action? If you source any mechanical engineering texts you'll find something similar to what I just described. I see no such patterns on the manifold in question. If it turns out that your right, my bad. I've met far too many "water chemistry professionals" that didn't know their own A$$ from a hole in the ground.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

See pic:


----------



## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

You don't know how impingement operates, and you're going to call out an expert on the subject as a BS artist?


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> You don't know how impingement operates, and you're going to call out an expert on the subject as a BS artist?


Which type? Particle, droplet, or bubble?


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

OK, your right. school me. How does a lip cause E/C 4 feet away from the joint?


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

see pic. brown lines indicate bare metal. black curves are cut away of lip. grey dots show edge of lip.


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Protech said:


> I'm going to be perfectly blunt, I think your full of ****. Why don’t you circle the "patterns" in relation ship to the un-reamed joints. E/C from cutter lip shows up about 1/8" away from the lip with an undercut. In other words a concave rib. Could you circle these patterns for me and explain the mechanism of action? If you source any mechanical engineering texts you'll find something similar to what I just described. I see no such patterns on the manifold in question. If it turns out that your right, my bad. I've met far too many "water chemistry professionals" that didn't know their own A$$ from a hole in the ground.


I don't need to play games with you if you disagree with me so be it. Look at the picture of the 1/2" elbow and you will see where the eddy was and where the cavitation was. Not only did the plumber not ream his pipe he used a dull blade and too much pressure. Anytime you have anything other than a Laminar flow you are going to cause a turbulence in the pipe. A system can increase up to ten fold over the design velocity in the localized area of cavitation.

Mark

BTW: I am not a water chemistry professional I am a Plumbing Contractor with over 35-years in the trade and over 20-years as an Expert Witness.


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Protech said:


> OK, your right. school me. How does a lip cause E/C 4 feet away from the joint?


I was not commenting on a leak 4' from the joint as I don't recall you posting a picture of a leak which was 4' from the joint. Localized velocity erosion will not happen 4' away from a joint unless the pipe has been damaged in some other fashion which would interrupt the Laminar flow.

Mark


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> I don't need to play games with you if you disagree with me so be it. Look at the picture of the 1/2" elbow and you will see where the eddy was and where the cavitation was. Not only did the plumber not ream his pipe he used a dull blade and too much pressure. Anytime you have anything other than a Laminar flow you are going to cause a turbulence in the pipe. A system can increase up to ten fold over the design velocity in the localized area of cavitation.
> 
> Mark
> 
> BTW: I am not a water chemistry professional I am a Plumbing Contractor with over 35-years in the trade and over 20-years as an Expert Witness.


 
To paraphrase. Anything other than "yes", would invariably end up being "no"

only 2 kinds of flow that I know of, laminar and turbulant. gotta be one or the other.


_Look at the picture of the 1/2" elbow and you will see where the eddy was and where the cavitation was_

I'm not playing any games. Show me the eddie. I don't see one. Even if I did, you have not explained why the manifold didn't leak and the straight piece of pipe 4 ft away DID leak.


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Protech said:


> To paraphrase. Anything other than "yes", would invariably end up being "no"
> 
> only 2 kinds of flow that I know of, laminar and turbulant. gotta be one or the other.
> 
> ...


Wow you are a piece of work and I am not sure why you want to argue about this as we are talking about two different things. You are talking about a leak 4' from the joint which you have not shown to anyone and I am talking about the manifold you cross-sectioned and posted pictures of. I haven't got the slightest idea whether the manifold has leaked or not and I never said it had leaked but there is clearly signs of erosion corrosion in the manifold. As for the terms eddy and cavitation, those are both products of a turbulent flow.

I have been a licensed contractor in multiple States (and multiple fields) for over 28-years. It is quite possible I have seen more during my time as a Contractor than you have in the 2-years you have been a licensed contractor. Unless I am mistaken this site should be about an exchange of ideas, thoughts and knowledge and not a pissing match over the mechanism of corrosion in your copper manifold. I have posted my cursory opinion of what I noticed in your picture without having the luxury of seeing it in person. If you don't care to hear the opinions of others I suggest you do not solicit them.

I'm out-Mark


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Protech, for a new member, you certainly come across as arrogant. ToUtah is a respected Expert of the plumbing community. Why are you being such a prick about this? Just like in your other post where you told everyone they were crybabies. Way to make some friends here early on.:thumbdown:


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Carl,

Thanks for the support, you have known me long enough to know I don't take these things personal. We all learn from each other on these forums but we can't learn anything if we don't listen. Protech posted some great pictures and shared some of his secrets with us. If he doesn't agree with my evaluation of his pictures I'm okay with it.

Mark


----------



## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> Carl,
> 
> Thanks for the support, you have known me long enough to know I don't take these things personal. We all learn from each other on these forums but we can't learn anything if we don't listen. Protech posted some great pictures and shared some of his secrets with us. If he doesn't agree with my evaluation of his pictures I'm okay with it.
> 
> Mark


*I gotta confess...it's kinda nice not having you as a mod here.*
*Debate truly sparks the exchange of info, you're a lot less inhibited here...makes for VERY interesting discussions.*

*Now, if I could just pick the right topic to fight with you over....Muahahahaha*


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *I gotta confess...it's kinda nice not having you as a mod here.*
> *Debate truly sparks the exchange of info, you're a lot less inhibited here...makes for VERY interesting discussions.*
> 
> *Now, if I could just pick the right topic to fight with you over....Muahahahaha*


LOL-What's your stance on Global Warming?

Mark


----------



## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> LOL-What's your stance on Global Warming?
> 
> Mark


*It's a little chilly tonight.*


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *It's a little chilly tonight.*


 
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


----------



## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Proud Plumber said:


> Great cut away on the manifold!!!!!!!
> 
> Because copper here turns green and starts blowing pin holes everywhere. Green from a little minor flux residue or age is one thing.... green from water that lacks copper friendly characteristics is entirely another. I seen that scenario 100's of times. Sometimes so coroded that you can almost crumble L copper in your hand. I have repiped a ton of homes less than 10 years old with L copper and a completely failed system. He is right in some of his pex arguements for our area.


In some areas copper doesn't do well. I won't try and argue that one but for most of the country copper is king.


----------



## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

Marlin said:


> In some areas copper doesn't do well. I won't try and argue that one but for most of the country copper is king.


Understood


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Look, you wouldn't be the first person to call me aragent and I woun't deny that. But in the interest of a good scientific debate so that knowledge on the subject may be passed down to others, please explain these "patterns" by highlighting them in the pictures or send a picture of your own or link to a reference or somthing. Until, I see some proof to legitamise your cliam I will have to respectfully disagree. I'm am sorry for being so abraisive.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Perhaps you could visuallize the flow that would be created by a ridge line or, wall across a sandy stream bed. depending on the velocity of the stream there would be a series of ridges and valleys after this wall and the further from the wall you get the effect lessens. This is the erosion that occurs in the pipe.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I understand that, but where is that seen on the samples?


----------



## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

Protech said:


> I understand that, but where is that seen on the samples?


I think I can answer this..... and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Redwood is right, for example a new river is curvy like a snakes back. However, the erosion on pipe is slightly different. in that it is a turbulent action that takes place in an improperly assembled copper system in other words Not reaming. When the water passes around you bend a turbulent action takes place, causing an irregular pitting much like what we see from water condition corrosion here in FL. It could never cause a consistant smooth erosion because the conditions of water travel, pressure changes are never consistent. It leaves dimples later creating pinholes. When the water tuns it causes a mini swirling and turbulence where it meets the obstruction in the line. The river concept holds true because on a windy fast moving body of water you find sections in the turns where the river is moving up stream.


----------



## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech said:


> *Look, you wouldn't be the first person to call me aragent and I woun't deny that. But in the interest of a good scientific debate so that knowledge* on the subject may be passed down to others, please explain these "patterns" by highlighting them in the pictures or send a picture of your own or link to a reference or somthing. Until, I see some proof to legitamise your cliam I will have to respectfully disagree.* I'm am sorry for being so abraisive*.


*I am often a bit coarse in plumbing forums.*

*This isn't a knitting forum, plumbers are steriotypically a more "hearty" group o fella's.*

*I think it's important to stand by what you think is right, as long as it doesn't become an exchange of pointless insults. (yeah, I'm no angel either)*

*You have valid opinions, as do all of us, which is why I come here.*

*I did toss an extolment to Utah for the fact the he'd most likely be best suited to inform us regarding copper wear in his specific line of work.*

*However, even he will tell you that I occasionally disagree with him as well.*

*Be you, stick around, but maybe get to know us a little more.*

*I for one look forward to future debates with you, differing experiences and opinions are the heart of learning.*


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Here is what I'm going to do. I've studied the sample and taken pictures along the way. After posting all of the pics with explantions of what's being done, I will go back and highlight areas of interest and give my .02
When I'm done, please give your opinions as well Utah.


----------



## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *I am often a bit coarse in plumbing forums.*
> 
> *This isn't a knitting forum, plumbers are steriotypically a more "hearty" group o fella's.*
> 
> ...


I like the debates too. it was you guys going at it with GC's on other forums that brought me in. No don't stop sometimes it is just plain hilarious.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

acid wash(viniger)


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

more of post acid wash


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

untouched other half


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

more of the untouched other half


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

driving oilbased flux out of the joints.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

cooking and final brushing pics. I will go over some points of interest in the next post.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

my opinions


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Thoughts?


----------



## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech said:


> Thoughts?


*Yes,*

*PLEASE, include some recent photo's from Playboy, Penthouse & Hustler...these pics are getting boring.*


----------



## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *Yes,*
> 
> *PLEASE, include some recent photo's from Playboy, Penthouse & Hustler...these pics are getting boring.*


:laughing::thumbup::laughing:


----------



## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

Did you fix the leaky Delta valve? I saw signs of it on the rusty tub? How about mold remediation?


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

No, he was one of those customers that knows better than the plumber


----------



## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

Protech said:


> No, he was one of those customers that knows better than the plumber


They were all plumbers once. they even had couplers and pcv pipe back then....


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Yeah, then everything got complicated. They came out with the yellow pcv and then the multi colored stuff that ya gotta use lots of glue on.


----------



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

service guy said:


> Protech, for a new member, you certainly come across as arrogant. ToUtah is a respected Expert of the plumbing community. Why are you being such a prick about this? Just like in your other post where you told everyone they were crybabies. Way to make some friends here early on.:thumbdown:


:yes:


----------

