# Cross connection



## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Ranch 1 bathroom house on a well. Cold water fluctuates between ice cold and luke warm. All faucets are two handle including WM valve. No mixing valve for toilet. Shower valve is a Delta monitor. 

Im going there in a few days to replace shower valve cartridge. Anything else it could be other than shower valve? 

Thanks for any ideas.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Does the temp. fluctuate equaly at all fixtures? Recirc. line with missing/failed check valve?








Paul


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

rocksteady said:


> Does the temp. fluctuate equaly at all fixtures? Recirc. line with missing/failed check valve?
> 
> Do they shut off the W/M it could cross over in the selonoid.
> Close one H or C see if problem stops.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

check to see if the hot and cold frost frees in the garage are looped together with a y connection.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

All good suggestions, no hot sill cocks, wm is kept off, no hot water re circ line. It
must be that delta cartridge. Ill post back after I change it out. I've seen this happen with moen cartridges but not delta, we'll see.

Being in the city my knowledge with wells is limited, wasn't sure if there could be something going on there.


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## patrick88 (Oct 14, 2008)

Aside from the extra items in the house. Wells are not much different than city. I'm thinking the same as you. Shower valve.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

try shutting off the washer box and see if it goes away


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Well I don't want to keep you guys in suspense any longer,:laughing: it was the delta cartridge


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

I spoke too soon :wallbash:.

Strange, this should be easy, one bathroom ranch. Im going back tomorrow morning and I aint leavin until I figure this out!

Is it possible for pressure to somehow drop from well and water from water heater is pushing through to cold side? 

Water heater is old. 2 handle bath faucet is old. 



I've already checked everything obvious, something weird going on. The only thing in this house I don't have much experience with is the well. She says neighbors house water is ice cold. Hers is on and off. Hmmmmm.....


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

put a spring check and expansion tank on the water heater and eliminate it as a possibility.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

I would definitely check the washing machine...those solenoids can fool you.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

I don't think it has anything to do with the well, I think it is something else their that is causing this

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## Brian Ayres (Sep 9, 2012)

Turn off the water to the WH. Then, check to see if you have any cold water flow from the hot fixtures to see if you have a cross connection.
If you do, leave the water running and go around feeling fixtures, stops to see if there is water flowing through them. This method will sometimes help get you close to the problem.

Sounds like a tough one. The one thought I keep coming to also is a pressure imbalance. Maybe put a gauge on both hot and cold and see if they are the same?
I had a real doozy with hot water coming out of 8 apartments that turned out that the cold supply for those 8(out of40+ units) was coming off the fire supply after it's RP...  10 PSI less on the cold side with 4 bad Moen 1200B cartridges and a running toilet at the end of the line....:blink: The 10 PSI difference allowed the hot to push through into the cold...
So, maybe there is a check of some sort on the cold that's reducing the pressure allowing the hot to push through some place?
Best of luck,

Brian


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Are the waterlines accessable? A fluke temp clamp on will help immensly finding the problem. The one time I had a cross connection, it was the washing machine.

Is there any possibility that some of the lines are underground and some are in the attic allowing them to heat up?


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

I had a 7yr old house that had the hot water recirc line, at the end of the run, tied into the cold line, instead of hot. All this above drywall ceiling. They finally got tired of living with sporatic temp water, in their master bath, especially. 

Just ran into an old house last week, that had old powers mixing valves, at showers, causing the cross conn. I turned off hot water main, and you could hear the cold water running through each mixer.


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## LEAD INGOT (Jul 15, 2009)

Pull the hoses off of the WM box. Be sure the valves are shutting off. I had on two seperate occasions find a water softner with a clogged venturi be the source of a cross connection. Throw it in bypass and see if it goes away.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

All water lines are assessable in the basement. Washing machine valves are separate and new
but I will check them anyway. They are basically two boiler drains. She swears she keeps them off and they were off the last time I was there. I will figure this out today and post back tonight. If I don't post back tonight I'm still there f ing wit:blink:h the problem.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Hmmm, Well pump is running for a long time without gaining any pressure. Everything is off. When I was running the water earlier warm water start a creep back down to the water main buy the pump. When the pump kicked on it got ice cold again


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Pump has been running for about 15-20 minutes now without any gain in pressure again everything is off


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

I'm going to wait and see if this thing kicks on without anything running. Pump is in the basement gauges at about 48 p s I


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Pump shuts off after about 15 minutes and holds pressure. There's definitely no cross connections anywhere as I have checked everything again. There is definitely a pressure in balance of some sort going on causing water to backup from water heater through the system. While pump is running water is ice cold everywhere when pump shut off water gets luke warm on cold side intermittently. I suppose putting a check valve on the water heater would work however this doesn't tell me exactly what the problem is.


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## Brian Ayres (Sep 9, 2012)

The check on the well pump is likely bad. ? Pump runs and builds pressure, then when the pressure switch shuts off the pump the water siphons out of the water heater into the well. Of course if you don't have air in the system there's a factor involved that I must be missing.... Hmmmmmm


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## Txmasterplumber (Oct 2, 2010)

If the well pump isn't shutting off, then it's probably got a bad pressure switch. 

About a month ago, wife was in taking her morning shower, then all of a sudden, the pressure dropped to nothing. I went out to the well house, and the gauge read 0... pulled the cover off of the pressure switch, and the contacts were full of ants. Blew out the switch with compressed air and good to go. 

Mine will run for probably a minute to a minute and a half. Switch is set on @ 40 psi, off @ 70 psi., so if it runs continuously, my best guess would be faulty pressure switch.


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## Txmasterplumber (Oct 2, 2010)

Brian Ayres said:


> The check on the well pump is likely bad. ? Pump runs and builds pressure, then when the pressure switch shuts off the pump the water siphons out of the water heater into the well. Of course if you don't have air in the system there's a factor involved that I must be missing.... Hmmmmmm


Also, check to see what pressure you have on the well tank... could be a ruptured bladder....


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Sounds like a bad check valve for the pump for sure, install a check valve before the pump and see if the problem goes away, I bet there's only the internal check valve on the pump and it's bad so unless you want to pull the pump I'd install a check valve before the pressure tank and any branches . 

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Is there an x- tank on the WH?

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

No expansion on water heater. Very few homes in Massachusetts do. 

I could actually feel the water main getting warm a few feet away from the pump. Pump is in the basement. No doubt its a well issue of some sort. I don't work on Wells and most plumbers don't around here even in the rural areas. 

I set her up with a reputable well company, she's going to let me know exactly what it was. The check valve must be built into the pump because I didn't see 1 at all. She's lived in this house over 50 years has never had this issue.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

pauliplumber said:


> No expansion on water heater. Very few homes in Massachusetts do.
> 
> I could actually feel the water main getting warm a few feet away from the pump. Pump is in the basement. No doubt its a well issue of some sort. I don't work on Wells and most plumbers don't around here even in the rural areas.
> 
> I set her up with a reputable well company, she's going to let me know exactly what it was. The check valve must be built into the pump because I didn't see 1 at all. She's lived in this house over 50 years has never had this issue.


the best option is to install a check valve at the pressure tank then, because if you didn't see one then the integeral check in the pump head is it.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## Brian Ayres (Sep 9, 2012)

Actually. Installing a check at the top of the well head while fixing one problem can sometimes induce hammering. Always consult a well guy if you can. We don't work on wells generally but I seem to fix a lot for friends if the bosses when he knows the people don't have a lot of money...I've called a local well guy and he's been kind to help if it's something I can fix. Otherwise I send him. 

I had a bad well check causing hammering in the house at the pressure tank's check valve at my bosses house(he's too cheap to hire a well guy when he has me!) and had to install a PRV designed for wells. I forget what they are called but you set them 5PSI below the pressure switch's high setting say 70PSI, and the PRV closes at 65 PSI, but it's grooved so it still allows a fractional amount of water past the diaphragm allowing the pressure to slowly build to the 70PSI, then, when the pump shuts off their is very little kinetic energy to deal with. Voila! No more hammering. 

Thanks for sharing your mystery!

Brian


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Brian Ayres said:


> Actually. Installing a check at the top of the well head while fixing one problem can sometimes induce hammering. Always consult a well guy if you can. We don't work on wells generally but I seem to fix a lot for friends if the bosses when he knows the people don't have a lot of money...I've called a local well guy and he's been kind to help if it's something I can fix. Otherwise I send him.
> 
> I had a bad well check causing hammering in the house at the pressure tank's check valve at my bosses house(he's too cheap to hire a well guy when he has me!) and had to install a PRV designed for wells. I forget what they are called but you set them 5PSI below the pressure switch's high setting say 70PSI, and the PRV closes at 65 PSI, but it's grooved so it still allows a fractional amount of water past the diaphragm allowing the pressure to slowly build to the 70PSI, then, when the pump shuts off their is very little kinetic energy to deal with. Voila! No more hammering.
> 
> ...


Yup a cycle stop valve is what ur talking bout!!! I love them valves, we install them all the time, great product!!

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Did they recently get a new motor or pump? It sounds to me like the pump (if a shallow well) mat be spinning backwards? I have seen them run backwards and they will pump a little but not build the right pressure or volume?It usually happens when someone has a motor laying around and puts it on not realizing that some are reversible or reverse rotation.

Could also be a defective pump that won't build adequate pressure? Either way the pump spinning and water not moving will produce lots of heat!


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

She said the pump was new. Interesting, I wish I asked her how new or if it coincided with the water problem. Her pump seems to run longer than it should. The cold water storage tank looks very old . I will definitely find out.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

This definently sounds like a job where a thermal imager would have helped out alot.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

pauliplumber said:


> No expansion on water heater. Very few homes in Massachusetts do.
> 
> I could actually feel the water main getting warm a few feet away from the pump. Pump is in the basement. No doubt its a well issue of some sort. I don't work on Wells and most plumbers don't around here even in the rural areas.
> 
> I set her up with a reputable well company, she's going to let me know exactly what it was. The check valve must be built into the pump because I didn't see 1 at all. She's lived in this house over 50 years has never had this issue.


lol---I'm semi-rural next door to extreme rural and I don't do wells or anything connected to them. It is the proverbial can of worms.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Doing well work is extremely profitable though, and i enjoy doing it, because it combines electrical controls with plumbing, and it's a new challenge at each job.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## chuckscott (Oct 20, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> Doing well work is extremely profitable though, and i enjoy doing it, because it combines electrical controls with plumbing, and it's a new challenge at each job.
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


Got my start in rural area. We did everything from well drilling and service to aerated sewage treatment, new construction and plumbing service. I learned a lot during my time there. It has translated well for me since moving to a metro area. I'm surprised how many city plumbers don't know anything about pumps or what is generally seen in rural plumbing. I like the challenge when it comes up and can't complain because its job security around here. I just wish I saw more of it here.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Turned out to be the well pressure tank. I heard the well guys replaced it and its been fine since. First time I've heard of that happening. :blink:


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## heeterman1 (Feb 12, 2013)

*need more info*



pauliplumber said:


> Ranch 1 bathroom house on a well. Cold water fluctuates between ice cold and luke warm. All faucets are two handle including WM valve. No mixing valve for toilet. Shower valve is a Delta monitor.
> 
> Im going there in a few days to replace shower valve cartridge. Anything else it could be other than shower valve?
> 
> Thanks for any ideas.


i still sure its the shower valve the new ccartridge should do it


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