# My first real "Pricing" question



## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

So I have to submit a bill tomorrow for a customer whom I repiped a good chunk of the 40's cast iron main. So the issue I'm having is this particular job was an S.O.B. as I had to crawl under the house with about 16" of clearance (I'm 6' 270) and I had to actually dig up 20' of pipe roughly 24" deep. The only digging tool I could get in there was a small hand gardening shovel.
Job took 30 hrs in the 109* heat. Had to cut pipe in very tight conditions with a 7" grinder. I tied in a complete bathroom group, then exited the footing and installed two facing cleanouts. 
I'm wondering if any you seasoned vets throw your normal pricing out the door and take into account the extra difficult of a particular job. I know where I need to be however I feel like sometimes I may give a particular job away by not charging according to the circumstances. I don't have a full scale flat rate pricing plan except for water heaters and fixtures (you know the basics) other than that I'm just a look at what's involved and give an idea based on time and materials. 
I find this job unique in its simple 20' of pipe and a handful of tie ins took 10 more hours than a complete 1000 gallon septic tank and 80' of leach line I completed earlier this week in only 22 hours. So where would some of you guys be. By the way I kinda dropped everything I was doing as this customer must have their property (it's a high end vacation rental in Palm Springs) ready for rental by Monday so I knocked it out working until 9 pm most of the weekend and yesterday. Thoughts!


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

This is what most of the pipe looked like!


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## Hillside (Jan 22, 2010)

Did you talk about price to him at all?


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## tims007 (Aug 31, 2013)

I would pads the bill a smidgen for overtime and for the "extreem" circumstance..the tight area .. you know what to do


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Wow! 

Tough Job! Tough Working Conditions!

And now you are thinking the customer is going to have a tough time swallowing the bill as you fill in the lines of numbers to fill in and present to them to justify the bottom line hoping to avoid the customer freak out so you can get paid...

The joys of T&M...:laughing:

I'm so glad that I don't bother with that and the customer has already agreed to an up front price before I have done the work. You knew the conditions of the job before you started and how much fun you were going to have with the job. Now after all that, you are going to beat yourself up on the price, before the customer beats you up too...

I hope you get paid well for your work, I make certain I will before I start...


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## Stptog (Jul 13, 2014)

My vote is yes, throw your normal rate out the window! For a couple of reasons, 1) the owner is renting out a nice vaca rental, its not their only source of income, their doing quite well for themselves no doubt and 2) they made a most difficult job, an emergency job so overtime rate applies.

Do you normally crawl around with a garden shovel in the dark, with your face in the stink bugs? I don't think so. In fact your lucky to get out there in one piece!:yes:


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Wow!
> 
> Tough Job! Tough Working Conditions!
> 
> ...


No no! Not like that at all. I am in no way concerned about them freaking out on the bill. What happened was I discovered this issue, but I had no idea how far back up the line the damage was so there was no way of giving a price just short of telling them the whole main needs to be done ( its a 6 bedroom 5 bath house and huge) so I mentioned that ill try going to the first bathroom group where the toilet ties in and hopefully the crack will stop at the joint. After discovering the bottom of pipe was rotted up beyond the joint I THEN told customer well Im gonna go as far back is needed because "we want to do it right the first time" it was at this point I told him as far a price goes I would keep an open ticket for at least $10,000.00 and if we reach it ill let you know if more is needed, his response was whatever needs to be done "we do not want this house backed up and have to go trough this after its already booked up"! 
This is the third property I've worked on for them and so far they've been very satisfied with my work and my pricing! And they have been greatly appreciative of my ability to respond and meet their frantic timeline needs. 
If I were to tally an hourly rate with material and markup I would still be under $5,000.00. And thats fine but i just dont want to give the work away. Like I said I only ask because I find it crazy how just last week I installed a complete septic system inspected and finished in only 22 hours and after all my direct costs were covered these two jobs mirror each other with the exception of this repipe wippin my arse!


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Ok then.....make it for 6k. An hour changing a faucet is way different then an hour of digging.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

I'm largely t&m and extreme work is 50% more: $132.00/hour per man.

My prices are posted on the internet, but I always have a written agreement for larger jobs. For the smaller jobs, it's verbal and I always tell them where to find the prices.

edit: I read your ramble in the 3nd post. You are fine. Good job.


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

I always give a price and get a contract signed before I touch any pipes email and fax works great. It is better this way so there are no surprises. I also do what you did when I know there could be more work I write it down and let them know what it could cost if I have to do extra work.

I just did something very similar yesterday. Replaced about 15ft of sewer to where the pipe came out of the house, excavated under the house a few inches, plus installed a clean out outside at about 3ft deep went another 10 ft after the c/o cost was $6300. I'll take 10k any day if it was as hard as yours.

You need to make your money. If our job was easy everyone would do it and we would be without a job.


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

Disclaimer: Prices vary greatly, we all know this, so let's agree to not turn this into yet another thread on why this is too low or high. 

For the sake of argument I am going to use 120.00 as a billable rate for a OMS. 

30 hours x a minimum 120.00 = 3600.00 

3600.00 would be the absolute minimum price for 30 hours worked on even the simplest task(faucet change out, water heater, etc.....). 

In this case you were doing something that was much more labor intensive, higher levels of danger and possible physical harm, you expedited the work to meet there emergency need, etc.... The fact is you went above and beyond, put yourself at risk, blah, blah, blah. 

You also gave a cap of 10,000 so they are prepared for that worse case scenario. 

If you were to charge 5,000.00 for this you would be screwing yourself. 

Given all the facts that are involved I would be pricing the job at 6,500.00 minimum most likely 7,500.00 and look like a hero.


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## Hillside (Jan 22, 2010)

Ya just tell them it was worst than expected and we still managed to still come in under budget, that way u are happy as are they, 8200 sounds good for both


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

Hillside said:


> Ya just tell them it was worst than expected and we still managed to still come in under budget, that way u are happy as are they, 8200 sounds good for both


When considering the value of the service provided it should be worth every bit of that.


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## mytxplumber (Jul 28, 2013)

My question is why did you do this alone did you have help. If not you should have just for safety reasons. With the heat and working in a confined space you need help in case of an emergency. Guys get shocked, crawl through termite poison, something pins you under the house or you get stuck in that kind of heat. I always figures my material and then the kind of profit I wanted to make for working that hard and came out with a total and then you can figure it any other way you like and compare the two. If you did have help I bill for that to and time to dump pipe and clean up. I am like the other guys to you gave him a price if you are happy and the customer is happy what is the problem? Hard work always pays more and emergencies and late nights do too.... Good luck and nice job. You earned every penny or you would not be asking this question. Remember a good and honest plumber is worth something to and you sound like both...


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

Give them a real cheap price. They will appreciate your generosity and kindness, and probably hire you and pay a lot of money to change out the toilet flapper next time the toilet is running.


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## alberteh (Feb 26, 2012)

All i'm hearing is excuses to shortchange yourself... you know what the bill should be. Just say "here's the bill. If you have any questions i would be glad to answer them"


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

30 hours billable time based on what you charge hourly. Materials plus your mark up.
My hourly rate would put me over $10K and I don't think you're priced close to me so just go with your hourly plus whatever you mark it up.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

id bill it at 9000.00 and list everything you did and had to do to make the install,sounds like they got plenty of money and not on food stamps so they can afford it,just a tax write off for them:thumbsup:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

sparky said:


> id bill it at 9000.00 and list everything you did and had to do to make the install,sounds like they got plenty of money and not on food stamps so they can afford it,just a tax write off for them:thumbsup:


I thought the same thing regarding what to charge, with the exception of they can afford it so why not part. 

The customer placed their own value on getting their plumbing corrected - who am I to argue. ; o)


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Stptog said:


> overtime rate applies.


I forgot about overtime rate. 
If you're $100 an hour and you charged overtime rate of $200 for the whole 30 hours that would only put you at $6000 plus material with markup.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Why would you ever charge someone a price because it appears as they can afford it?


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

gear junkie said:


> Why would you ever charge someone a price because it appears as they can afford it?


I was thinking the same thing. It sounds like a lot of these responses are flat out telling him to rip them off because they seem to can afford it. 
Just account for the time it took you, include any over time if needed and parts + markup.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

First off the job is done. Informing you what I do is irrelevant suggesting going over price before the job is irrelevant and unnecessary. The first time I ever heard this term was in Florida. Degree of difficulty, this made me laugh until I had tears rolling down my cheek. 

We all know time and we all know approximately how long a job will last. I am not sure what was discussed and I hope you discussed that it was done on overtime and would be charged out at over time rates? 30 hours at your over time rate then your materials plus mark up. It is what it is. Though I would write up a paper that describes the work scope and conditions of the job and how this is an emergency situation that you and the owner agreed upon in order to get it done by Monday due to rental contract by the owner or rental property management company.

Work conditions surround the job at (address) were as follows 24 inch clearance from dirt ground to floor joists which did not allow a full size shovel to use. Trenching with a garden type trenching shovel in order to trench and penetrate the dirt to gain access to the building drain of master bathroom and blah blah fixtures. The depth of the original building drain is at 2 feet for a length of 20 feet. Once the pipe was accessible I discovered broken cast iron of the original piping. Pictures of piping are available and are attached.

This should be an in-depth description of everything minor and major that you had to do in order to accomplish the job. I would even have the reason why they called you to do this job over the weekend for them.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

start another thread and we can discuss what to do the next time this happens.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

you said time and materials. i guess the rules change according to the size of their wallet. if it was a pain in the ass, you should have said, $9000 estimate but not to exceed $10000 per the scope of work. if t and m came in at x dollars, that accounts for the extra time that made it a pain in the ass. thats where estimates can make you smile or frown. t and m is just that. time, after hours is a different rate, and materials


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

Howdy PZ'ers! Sorry, I've had a rough last week and a half with not much down time. So I got all squared away today with the customer. Sparing a whole bunch of details, I charged my standard hourly rate only adding what equated to $370.00 over my rate + parts and markup. I presented a bill for half of what I told the customer to expect $10,000 as I didn't need to go into the next bathroom group as the piping was a good shape. 
Needless to say the customer apperantly thought I was joking when I informed him that it could be upwards of $10,000. However any price even my absolute bottom of the barrell price would not have made him happy as he assumed my hourly rate was $65.00 despite my communication with his assistant regarding my rates at their previous address two days before of which I submitted a bill for 2hrs of snaking, a camera (my previous company came out with their camera), jetting and two cleanouts one of which was 5' deep to the main. They were perfectly fine with my price breakdown on that invoice, however when the customer calculated the time I spent there they assumed I billed at $190.00 (even though my equipment rates were in there they only saw how much time I spent there). Then they of course had a problem with it. 
I literally apologized to them about not providing them with the utmost best service possible while not meeting their stringent timeline to provide a solution to their problems. After I said this, I was told "on the contrary Tim! We've never had such great service from a contractor before and your level of professionalism and knoledge of business is astounding, were just bottom line guys Nd the bottom line is the absolute cheapest price possibile and nothing against you, but we feel your hourly rate is very high" this was pretty much a direct quote. 
So they offered an uktimatum..."you can cut your price in half and bring your hourly rate down to $65/hr and get all of our future work, or we will pay you for what you've done at your price and shake hands and seek a sercice provider elsewhere"! 
I took the check and said call me when you can't find anybody to adequately handle your emergencies.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

:laughing: So are you ready to flat rate yet?:laughing:


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

Redwood said:


> :laughing: So are you ready to flat rate yet?:laughing:


I'm tellin ya!


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

It was definitely a learning experience. I'm always good about covering my arse! But for some reason I just let my guard down and didn't follow protocol and it but me in the arse. Although even if I was flat rate I would not have been able to sell the job. After all was said and done, turns out the customer used to be a general contractor (insert stroking hand motion emocon) who tells me " I know what all jobs take, and how much hey should go for (insert middle finger emocon) :laughing:


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## tims007 (Aug 31, 2013)

And that's why you should have said it's $15000 ..... ok I kid on that . And you know the rich stay rich by not spending any $$$ that they don't have to .. I'm glad you got paid ... that's the main thing.. i myself have had a customer do something similar after agreeing to the cost of work .. after the job was done trying to haggle the price.... i said "you are supost to haggle the price before the work is started not after" ..


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

tims007 said:


> And that's why you should have said it's $15000 ..... ok I kid on that . And you know the rich stay rich by not spending any $$$ that they don't have to .. I'm glad you got paid ... that's the main thing.. i myself have had a customer do something similar after agreeing to the cost of work .. after the job was done trying to haggle the price.... i said "you are supost to haggle the price before the work is started not after" ..


LOL I had a customer whose wife was the decision maker come home just as I was starting a job that he had approved....

The job was a clogged line from a 3rd floor apartment bathroom and the access was a pulled toilet with a bad flange that had a leaking angle stop, he had been given the quote for all of the work and signed the approval...

I had pulled the toilet, had the slowly dripping supply in my small paint bucket, and had just started to put my snake in the line when Broomhilda returned and pitched a fit about the price. She was a wonderful lady with the mouth of a drunken sailor and stated in no uncertain terms that there was no way I would be paid for any work...

IMHO that was not the best thing to say as 4:45 pm on a Saturday afternoon but who was I to argue... The customer is always right...:yes:

No Problem! Just sign here that you have changed your mind and that you are refusing the work....

I gathered up my tools and equipment and poured the water out of the paint bucket into the sink watching the water rise up out of the closet flange...

As I carried it out to my van I smiled at her and bid her a good day...:whistling2:

Called in to the shop and clocked out, heading home....

Gee... I hope they made out alright....:laughing::thumbup:


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

sierra2000 said:


> I was thinking the same thing. It sounds like a lot of these responses are flat out telling him to rip them
> Just account for the time it took you, include any over time if needed and parts + markup.


Not ripping anyone off and half the plumbers on here would not even do this job,you would turn it down or if you did crawl in that hell hole I'm sure you would change your outlook


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

sparky said:


> Not ripping anyone off and half the plumbers on here would not even do this job,you would turn it down or if you did crawl in that hell hole I'm sure you would change your outlook


Why would I charge more because it's difficult? I replaced 50' of cast iron under the house by myself just last week. Took me 5 hours. Priced it according to my book. 
If I did the job and found that it took me longer than I accounted for and all the similar jobs are taking me longer than I bargained for, that tells me it's time to adjust the time allowed in my flat rate book. 
ShootNPlumber was in a great position if you ask me. He gave them a high worst case scenario and he's T&M. 
If it's a hell hole of a job that means it's going to take you longer to do it and you bill ALL the extra time to the customer, simple as that. You don't charge them for all your time spent on the job and then tack on something extra because it was hard, they approved a worst case price or they look like they can afford it.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

sparky said:


> id bill it at 9000.00 and list everything you did and had to do to make the install,sounds like they got plenty of money and not on food stamps so they can afford it,just a tax write off for them:thumbsup:


How is that the right thing to do?
If there is $500 material in this job and 30 hours time on the job that puts your hourly rate at $283.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

sparky said:


> id bill it at 9000.00 and list everything you did and had to do to make the install,sounds like they got plenty of money and not on food stamps so they can afford it,just a tax write off for them:thumbsup:


I can see where it's easy to figure a higher price for these circumstances! However, my price is still my price no matter how much or little money the customer has. This is why I try to focus on my target customer. I honestly figured this customer fell into my target category... One who values pride in work, outstanding customer service, the dedication to focus my attention on their task at hand and also handle their emergency needs with proper equipment. But I was wrong, the first two easy jobs they were happy with, but when something difficult came up if was a different tune. 
The whole house back up I responded too last week had Mr. G. Clooney (the actor) as a guest. It still is boggling me that with their clientele they are actively seeking the absolute bottom barrel plumber. Go figure!


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> Howdy PZ'ers! Sorry, I've had a rough last week and a half with not much down time. So I got all squared away today with the customer. Sparing a whole bunch of details, I charged my standard hourly rate only adding what equated to $370.00 over my rate + parts and markup. I presented a bill for half of what I told the customer to expect $10,000 as I didn't need to go into the next bathroom group as the piping was a good shape.
> Needless to say the customer apperantly thought I was joking when I informed him that it could be upwards of $10,000. However any price even my absolute bottom of the barrell price would not have made him happy as he assumed my hourly rate was $65.00 despite my communication with his assistant regarding my rates at their previous address two days before of which I submitted a bill for 2hrs of snaking, a camera (my previous company came out with their camera), jetting and two cleanouts one of which was 5' deep to the main. They were perfectly fine with my price breakdown on that invoice, however when the customer calculated the time I spent there they assumed I billed at $190.00 (even though my equipment rates were in there they only saw how much time I spent there). Then they of course had a problem with it.
> I literally apologized to them about not providing them with the utmost best service possible while not meeting their stringent timeline to provide a solution to their problems. After I said this, I was told "on the contrary Tim! We've never had such great service from a contractor before and your level of professionalism and knoledge of business is astounding, were just bottom line guys Nd the bottom line is the absolute cheapest price possibile and nothing against you, but we feel your hourly rate is very high" this was pretty much a direct quote.
> So they offered an uktimatum..."you can cut your price in half and bring your hourly rate down to $65/hr and get all of our future work, or we will pay you for what you've done at your price and shake hands and seek a sercice provider elsewhere"!
> I took the check and said call me when you can't find anybody to adequately handle your emergencies.


You can NOT blame them for your lack of communication.

I gave a remodel bid yesterday to some rich folk. He said "just do it at your rate with a ballpark on the final cost."

Not in this lifetime time, bucko.

I wrote up a time and material bid and emailed it to him with all the projected prices. I'll be shocked if I hear from him, but if I do, I'll be nice and safe and with a large deposit, risk free.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

Plumber said:


> You can NOT blame them for your lack of communication.
> 
> I gave a remodel bid yesterday to some rich folk. He said "just do it at your rate with a ballpark on the final cost."
> 
> ...


I get what yur sayin Plumber! But they did know my rate as I've done two previous jobs for them. In fact, we had a whole discussion on whether I'm flat rate or T&M and they liked that I was T&M because in their eyes it meant they were only paying for the task at hand at any particular location. As far as communication goes, I did everything I could to give him a range with a high cap limit to which he agreed.
The funny thing about this whole situation I will elaborate on. This customer was not upset in the slightest, merely concerened. In fact, we had a calm and very professional conversation regarding not only the bill but business talk as well. The owner Jim, in fact, commended me on really understanding my business needs and how it relates to my pricing S well as why he feels he deserves to charge $1,000.00/ day or $25,000.00/month for their vaca rentals. Which leads me to my point. My pricing was perfectly fine, and they knew it. We parted ways with handshakes and a pat on he back while saying "it's nothing against you! It's merely a financial business decision". So I slept fine knowing how it all played out. My friend who referred me to them as he does plumbing and HVAC told me this is how they operate and they will call you back and pay your prices because they can't afford to comp a guest even one night just because of the risk of a negative review.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

No, you don't know what I'm saying.

Every job is unique and YOU have to be clear in its billing rates.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> I get what yur sayin Plumber! But they did know my rate as I've done two previous jobs for them. In fact, we had a whole discussion on whether I'm flat rate or T&M and they liked that I was T&M because in their eyes it meant they were only paying for the task at hand at any particular location. As far as communication goes, I did everything I could to give him a range with a high cap limit to which he agreed. The funny thing about this whole situation I will elaborate on. This customer was not upset in the slightest, merely concerened. In fact, we had a calm and very professional conversation regarding not only the bill but business talk as well. The owner Jim, in fact, commended me on really understanding my business needs and how it relates to my pricing S well as why he feels he deserves to charge $1,000.00/ day or $25,000.00/month for their vaca rentals. Which leads me to my point. My pricing was perfectly fine, and they knew it. We parted ways with handshakes and a pat on he back while saying "it's nothing against you! It's merely a financial business decision". So I slept fine knowing how it all played out. My friend who referred me to them as he does plumbing and HVAC told me this is how they operate and they will call you back and pay your prices because they can't afford to comp a guest even one night just because of the risk of a negative review.


I've had customers complain about my price quite a few times, award me the job and still call me out later for other jobs. Sometimes people will do that just to see if you will cave and come down on the price. And some people just want to get the cheapest price.
I do think it was chicken scratch that he tried to haggle after the job was done though. I'd be hesitant or get approval signatures if he calls you back out again.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Sounds like it worked out well to me. :thumbup:

There is nothing wrong with a customer appreciating your work and where you are coming from, but still deciding they don't want to pay your rates for one reason or another.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

Guess who just now left me a message and wants me to come out this AM and figure out what's going on with their area drains around pool and side of house?


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> Guess who just now left me a message and wants me to come out this AM and figure out what's going on with their area drains around pool and side of house?


Wonder how many of his other vendors caved? With the money he saved on them, he can now afford you.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

Phat Cat said:


> Wonder how many of his other vendors caved? With the money he saved on them, he can now afford you.


Interesting way of looking at it!
So I told him on wed that I have a boatload of backflow devices to test on Friday and Saturday So lets get squared away with what I've done so far then we can address the pool area drains. At which point he played his games all day Wednesday and most of Thursday. 
I told him I'm out of the area until later this afternoon. I'd be happy to do my best to get there before my after hours rate kicks in but no guarantee, tomorrow and Sunday will be double time, and Monday I have a play date with my 2-1/2 year old son at the trampoline park and a nice sit down lunch and I guarantee you will not want to know my price to cancel this appointment....."ok Tim, well lets shoot for this afternoon and we'll see you then!":no:


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

Does anybody see why customers don't trust us? 

As a group, and judging by this discussion, we are all over the place in pricing structure. Good grief, who can blame customers for price shopping and kicking tires before they actually make a purchase. To the customer, there can't be that much difference in the quality of labor for changing out a light bulb or a toilet flapper or a length of pipe under a house or any widget you can think of. Or can there be a big difference? Idk.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

Cajunhiker said:


> Does anybody see why customers don't trust us?
> 
> As a group, and judging by this discussion, we are all over the place in pricing structure. Good grief, who can blame customers for price shopping and kicking tires before they actually make a purchase. To the customer, there can't be that much difference in the quality of labor for changing out a light bulb or a toilet flapper or a length of pipe under a house or any widget you can think of. Or can there be a big difference? Idk.


At the end of the day nobody got screwed. When I was an "employee" I used to say that plumber a or b screwed you at that price! Now as a business owner who sees what I need to charge I now look at it as "well you paid that company the price that THEY need to be at to keep the doors open". And there's a reason were all over the board. Because all of us have different overhead we all pay ourselves differing amounts. 
Believe me I'm not starting crap! I'm just sayin that, for instance, sierra2000 lives in LA area where stuff is expensive and the cost of living IMO is rediculous. Sierra2000 has much more equipment than I do much more. Why should his price be the same as my price when my cost of living is cheaper I don't sit in traffic while on my way to an emergency, plus I don't pay myself what he does. 
I'm sure you and I do not charge the same as demographics plays a part in pricing as well. Your market dictates price. If my market dictated I need to be at $65/hr then I'd be at $65/hr but my market can dictate much more then that and even more than where I'm at myself. The $80/ hr guys around here don't have all the necessary equipment to handle drains, sure they carry a spartan 100 or general speedrooter unit, but that's about t because they don't charge enough to cover the overhead. My friend who referred me to this customer charges $80/hr and has no capital to invest in a good machine so he sticks with his ridgid k-400 machine


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

I agree with you Shoot-N. I was making an observation from a consumer stand point. Wasn't implying you were not trustworthy. And, I don't think we as a profession are any different than auto mechanics, electricians, maid service, painters, lawn guys, etc. Price structure is all over the place for service professionals in general. 

I will say I think there are big differences between the level if service a consumer may receive with one plumbing company over another. And, thus that would justify differences in price for the same job. As a consumer, the overhead of a company doesn't matter to me. I just want the best value for a reasonable price, no matter if I'm paying a guy to cut my grass, change a light bulb or clean my carpets.


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

I'd say 5k-7k


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

The bottom line here is don't screw yourself and don't buckle to the customer. They are just trying to screw you out of a buck.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> At the end of the day nobody got screwed. When I was an "employee" I used to say that plumber a or b screwed you at that price! Now as a business owner who sees what I need to charge I now look at it as "well you paid that company the price that THEY need to be at to keep the doors open". And there's a reason were all over the board. Because all of us have different overhead we all pay ourselves differing amounts.
> Believe me I'm not starting crap! I'm just sayin that, for instance, sierra2000 lives in LA area where stuff is expensive and the cost of living IMO is rediculous. Sierra2000 has much more equipment than I do much more. Why should his price be the same as my price when my cost of living is cheaper I don't sit in traffic while on my way to an emergency, plus I don't pay myself what he does.
> I'm sure you and I do not charge the same as demographics plays a part in pricing as well. Your market dictates price. If my market dictated I need to be at $65/hr then I'd be at $65/hr but my market can dictate much more then that and even more than where I'm at myself. The $80/ hr guys around here don't have all the necessary equipment to handle drains, sure they carry a spartan 100 or general speedrooter unit, but that's about t because they don't charge enough to cover the overhead. My friend who referred me to this customer charges $80/hr and has no capital to invest in a good machine so he sticks with his ridgid k-400 machine


you nailed it. other posts say if you arent charging $100 per hour, you shouldnt be in business. where i am from, at that rate, you would be out of business. 650 water heater.... not always here. cost of living determines it. a new house here- 1800 sq ft with 3 car garage and 2 acres, $220,000. is it the same in new york or san fran. things are different and so are bill outs.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> you nailed it. other posts say if you arent charging $100 per hour, you shouldnt be in business. where i am from, at that rate, you would be out of business. 650 water heater.... not always here. cost of living determines it. a new house here- 1800 sq ft with 3 car garage and 2 acres, $220,000. is it the same in new york or san fran. things are different and so are bill outs.


Wow! How much is a water heater out there?


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

as i said the other day, at $640, i only got 2 out of 5 for a 40 nat gas in a basement. the other 3 , i was priced too high. before i read all of your posts, i was a little lower and was 4 out of 5.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

I meant your cost to buy the water heater. 40 gallon out here is $447, 50 gallon is $504.


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> as i said the other day, at $640, i only got 2 out of 5 for a 40 nat gas in a basement. the other 3 , i was priced too high. before i read all of your posts, i was a little lower and was 4 out of 5.


2 out of 5 is a closing ratio of 40%

Again, that's pretty darn good closing ratio and above average for the home improvement industry. I know many professional sales people who would LOVE to close 40% of their sales calls.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

There are certain fallacies that are holding people back. One such remark that really binds you to keep you from moving forward is the concept of what the market will bear. Please kindly tell me who sets what the market will bear? If you are always following others who think they have set what the market will bear how will you know your own limitations?

George has lived in the neighborhood and village for years and knows everyone and charges 65 dollars. He works out of his 1978 station wagon and binges every 6 weeks or so for 2 weeks. But everyone uses him because he is 65 dollars. Jim the new young plumber observes George bills out at 65.00 dollars so he sets his price at 60.00 dollars. After all how can he expect to break into the neighborhood due to George owning the neighborhood?

I do not care if you are new to the game or have been around a long time. What you know you know, what you do not know you do not know. I love new people who do not know that something can be done. The worst thing about plumbing owners is they were taught by another plumber. Those business skill sets were passed form 1 plumber to the next. The idea I am not going to teach everything I know, the next one starts with less knowledge that the next. That is why invoices are similar, work trucks are the same, policy, and problems are the same. Hello McFly.

I just visited an area of the country. Housing is cheap cheap cheap. I can buy a 1600 sq foot home for around 45 grand. We breakfast at a restaurant and not McDonalds for 10 bucks. Gas was over 4 dollars, hotels were 150 a night or more, entertainment higher than Sarasota. I paid ten bucks for a glass of white Zin. What I am saying cost of living is over emphasized. 

Problems are problems and how you present the solution wins the day PERIOD. Until you have tried it you cannot say differently. Trying it does not mean two weeks or a month it means you do it for well over 12 months and had a plan to work the concept. Until you have decided to become a leader in what the market will bear stop using that terminology because you do not know that the market will bear.


I've been in an area where they charge 50-80 dollars an hour and used pricing at 330 dollars an hour and sold it.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> The whole house back up I responded too last week had Mr. G. Clooney (the actor) as a guest. It still is boggling me that with their clientele they are actively seeking the absolute bottom barrel plumber. Go figure!


Did you ask him to give you hand carrying in your equipment? Better yet, did you rip on him for smashing one out that clogged the line?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I can think of one time in the last 5 years when I have installed a water heater for less than $1G...

The customer had purchased their own water heater and had it sitting right next to the old one, and was going to take care of disposing the old one...

All I had to do was cut out the old one set it aside then hook up the new one...

I charged $500 for that...
Nothing guaranteed it was customer supplied...


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

Redwood said:


> I can think of one time in the last 5 years when I have installed a water heater for less than $1G...
> 
> The customer had purchased their own water heater and had it sitting right next to the old one, and was going to take care of disposing the old one...
> 
> ...


Was the old one drained too ?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

dclarke said:


> Was the d one drained too ?


Yep! :thumbup:

Good customer IMHO...


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

Redwood said:


> Yep! :thumbup:
> 
> Good customer IMHO...


I agree. Can't beat a change out like that.


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