# Plumbing Companies - Out of Business - Plumber Shortages



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

A customer that branched out, used another plumber (my company) was very atuned to the stark reality coming soon.


In my area, there are plumbing companies that are dropping like flies. Big ones, small ones, one man bands that just have the work but no family life. 

They want to work for another company with the guarantee of no BS after the time clock is punched. Health insurance. People not paying their bills.


This fellow told me there are plumbing companies right now, in my area charging $45/hour for plumbing services. !!! :blink:


Problem is, they send out guys (unless you get the good one) that don't know plumbing, spend twice as long to get the job done.


He went on to say that his brother is part of the homebuilders association and the majority of larger plumbing companies have shut down, no longer do new construction. 

They stated that it's hard to find a plumber now, let alone 2 years from now when they expect this pull up.

But let me remind you of the reality; The plumbers in new construction are charging rates that were the same back in the late 80's. 


That's beyond cut throat, that's turning numbers for no reason at all. 

They are deeply concerned because there's not really any companies left willing to work that cheap... they either dissolved or went to work for other companies.

The chances of someone enterprising on this is luke warm at best. To jump in now, with everyone wanting rock bottom, what in the hell would posess you to continue to work for peas and carrots in this design.

I've done the hour to pay calculations on new construction, years ago with utilizing guys that rough a house in a day, waters and drains. That's a long day though, hard day's work for a 2.5 or 3.5 bath home, 2 floor drains. Especially when it is stretched across a ranch or cut up 2 story. 

This is a "not my problem" scenario for me as I could care less how bad a new construction job needs a plumbing company to do the task. 

And, we know from the idiots that run plumbing companies that the low ball plumber has cut the throat of the new construction worker in the area.

I actually love the fact that homeowners don't come to me anymore, asking me to look at their prints to give a free estimate. Pfft. Go waste someone elses time. 

You'd "think" the remaining plumbers in the equation would group together, work together and get a goal set in mind that would elevate the cost per fixture to make it profitable.

But somewhere in this big equation, there's a plumber that's taking money, pulling a permit, not doing the work and calling it good.

That's how this is going to come down when construction comes back... just won't be enough plumbers to do the task.

And I surely won't be the fool that 'does' pay more for the fixture to throw the carrot out and get the job done. I know what would happen, knowing a builder or personal homeowner trying to crunch numbers... they'd find a way to get out of paying full price. 

Something down to the stupid, finding a reason. My years in this profession dictate that design as I've had customers in the past that'll pay more in the past, part of a sinister plan.

The one on one experiences I have with my customer clientell now has been wonderful. It usually deals with small numbers, nothing that goes a long distance or acquires a lot of material.


It doesn't work for everyone but I would definitely say when you find your niche, it works like a good greased axle. 2 jobs friday between 2-7 netted good money for me and it's a shame they don't always roll like that. 

Another cancelled today, no biggie. Nothing on board for next week but the odds are I'll be working like always...one can dream of a few days out of the field. :laughing: I'm scrap man today and tomorrow so it's still doing the work.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

What exactly do you think is a fair hourly rate for new construction?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I'll tell you what guys are making on a home, new construction, 2.5 bath bilevel after the materials and permits are pulled.

$880.00-$1100.00


Figure everything that's done from start to finish, material gathering, help, showing up for inspections, final... and the dreaded "we have a problem and need you to come back" situation that almost always exists.

Doesn't mean it is 'your' problem... but indirectly it is because your time is involved.


At one time we figured 2.7 days to go from ground to rooftop, plumbing is done. We usually subbed out utilities (gas and sewer) but you can add to that number if you own a backhoe, probably another $500-$700.00.

Do the math on the hours and reality sinks in quick. 

I 'believe' new construction plumbers like to make anywhere from $45-$60 an hour, non-union.

If you are union in this area now, you're sitting on a bench or being outbid, scabbing to keep your family fed.


Volume is the only way these guys keep it up... keep starting new ones as the finished ones are paying.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

If you are saying that the $1100 dollars of a standard house is *profit*. The plumbers can turn 2 houses per week.Then at the end of the month there would be $8,800 dollars profit left. Maybe mistakes would cut into that some, but that would be 105,600 yearly profit for the owner not to bad. They are working to cheap, probably letting builders set their own rate.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

easttexasplumb said:


> If you are saying that the $1100 dollars of a standard house is *profit*. The plumbers can turn 2 houses per week.Then at the end of the month there would be $8,800 dollars profit left. Maybe mistakes would cut into that some, but that would be 105,600 yearly profit for the owner not to bad. They are working to cheap, probably letting builders set their own rate.


Dont forget the overhead.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

easttexasplumb said:


> If you are saying that the $1100 dollars of a standard house is *profit*. The plumbers can turn 2 houses per week.Then at the end of the month there would be $8,800 dollars profit left. Maybe mistakes would cut into that some, but that would be 105,600 yearly profit for the owner not to bad.


 
We used to sometimes start 3 houses in a week, maybe a couple finishes and at least one rough, if not 2.


But the equation gets hammered when you start chipping away at that number, as your labor has to come out of that. Then your fuel, then your percentage of material waste... and yes, mistakes.

You know it's never a solid 2 a week... even in the throttled up scenario we would have half days because we was waiting for walls to be poured, no pea gravel, hvac contractor was backed up, meter isn't set even though they want the finish done. <<< That right there was dangerous, as when the water gets kicked on, trash is coming through that line and they are calling you when it happens. To them, it is your fault for not sitting there for 8 more days, waiting for the meter to be set.

In my region, all year long, you can be in a row of houses and have no temporary electric service, you come with a generator and everyone jumps off you, overloading and now you are not working because of someone else.

Or when the concrete trucks come in and leave 2' ruts into the ground, wasn't there yesterday when you looked at the job, cut out for your plastic so you compile a material list. ie head start.

Now you're walking a 1/4 mile to and from your truck because 5 other trades decided to beat you to the closest parking spot to the house. Do one flag lot job and you'll buy a 4WD work vehicle. 

Then you need lo heel 90, got the F-ing material list to prove it but the jackleg at the supply house pulled a regular 90 instead... and you're looking at your hired hand that smokes more dope than cheech and chong combined, wondering if he's up to the task.

And you're in a stopping point inside the home. Work shut down till you move forward. 

I've been there, done that... if you really wanna get pissed off?

Catch your supplier 'throwing' 20' sections of PVC pipe off his truck onto that hard concrete in the garage, only to find longway splits in the most F'd up places that is beyond imaginable, only after you do the air test and the insulaters are insulating everything but the plumbing walls, cussing you out, let alone the builder, drywaller.


Nothing was perfect, rarely did the flow of progress follow anything but 'set' in design. Watch your income drop instantly when your help knocks over cleaner twice in a week, to the tune of $7.90 a can. :laughing:


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

No he is saying $800 - $1100 is all there is left to cover labor and overhead. I intentionally left out profit in that statement as I can assure you is none left.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

I have seen it here, the business owner said that the builder would not pay very much money for the plumbing. Of course he is bidding the work and low balling himself out of business, this particular guy closed the doors a couple months ago.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Pipe Rat said:


> No he is saying $800 - $1100 is all there is left to cover labor and overhead. I intentionally left out profit in that statement as I can assure you is none left.


 

Correct. It makes absolutely no sense why they continue as there's no money being made in the equation. 


You might jump a lone builder that pays more, random homeowners, but that has all but dried up.


This is why they are falling like cards in my area... they existed only by the volume of work. They are ALL saying that new construction will never return to the way it was 3 years ago. Never. The housing boom will never repeat as it created too many foreclosures, the many that happen every day.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Your views do not match up to what I am seeing a meer 200 miles to your west.

The market has self-cleaned. Prices came back. I am charging more than I was before it hiccuped....


My competitors are even busy. I have room for no more new work this year.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> Your views do not match up to what I am seeing a meer 200 miles to your west.
> 
> The market has self-cleaned. Prices came back. I am charging more than I was before it hiccuped....
> 
> ...


 

That's awesome. That is happening in areas across the nation but it's locked up here. 

Are you in a more rural area, people per square mile or less. This area had 845 plumbing companies advertising in the phone book 2 years ago.

It's below half at this point, that we know of. 

My work has been strong and steady, managed all the way through since 2009... still would like to have more work.


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## satelliteplumah (Jun 20, 2010)

I really feel your pain about the new work site conditions and landscapers taking all the parking, Reality is to ruff and finish a 2 story 2 1/2 bath home, in time and under budget with labor is a task. As a small operation that works primarily for contractors its always a challenge. I am currently starting my 4th new home this year and the prices seem up for me from last year. and remodels are always steady but more homeowners, more headache. somebodys got to do new construction.


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## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

I love new construction. Residential or commercial, it's all good. Remodel is fun too. In fact, I would rather dig bases by hand on new construction job site than run a service van any day.

What I like about new const. is the clean slate aspect of the work. For me, the mental stress of dealing with homeowners is harder than the physical demands of new work.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> Your views do not match up to what I am seeing a meer 200 miles to your west.
> 
> The market has self-cleaned. Prices came back. I am charging more than I was before it hiccuped....
> 
> ...


It is hard for me to say exactly how much better things are here. I can say that I believe there is an up swing in work. I am seeing my competition more and more, parked at homes. From what I am hearing it is improving for many.




greenscoutII said:


> I love new construction. Residential or commercial, it's all good. Remodel is fun too. In fact, I would rather dig bases by hand on new construction job site than run a service van any day.
> 
> What I like about new const. is the clean slate aspect of the work. For me, the mental stress of dealing with homeowners is harder than the physical demands of new work.


If construction is your thing, then I think you should try and stick with it. As for me, I love service work, the challenge, the customer service. Service work is rarely dull.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

There will always be guys that undercut. Good economy or bad.

Set yourself apart. Do work they cannot possibly accomplish. If they want to bungalow bust for 40 bucks an hour. More power to em.

I'll be quietly repiping school heating and plumbing systems.........


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Let the bottom feeding customers use the bottom feeder plumbers. Like already posted you have to try and find a niche working for those who are willing to pay for your professional plumbing services.

I have some customers (some, not enough) who are independently wealthy. They don't want a side-jobbing hack coming to their home at 6:00 PM working on their $ 500.00 Grohe tub valve. They'll pay for a professional plumber to come during business hours.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Sadly, one the biggest threats to small time operations in this economy is Craigslist.

I know a number of my peers (and I use the term loosely) who are underselling themselves and the Trade by working for wages.

I'm actually doing alright -- The niche I've carved out for myself has remained fairly static.

What concerns me is that the expectation among customers for rock bottom prices will continue long after things pick up.

As cynical as this may sound; I look at this downturn as a means of separating the wheat from the chaff -- Hopefully this winnowing won't take down too many of the smaller, newer companies with scruples who were late in jumping on the bandwagon.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Widdershins said:


> As cynical as this may sound; I look at this downturn as a means of separating the wheat from the chaff -- Hopefully this winnowing won't take down too many of the smaller, newer companies with scruples who were late in jumping on the bandwagon.


That is exactly what we needed. That is the beauty of capitalism, the market will correct itself. 

I have seen an increase in craiglist add for my area. I think that does not bode well for some companies.


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## marc76075 (Nov 24, 2010)

I firmly believe the market will correct itself. In 2006 I was the foreman for my company on a 600 home centex site. When the market just started to turn they asked my boss to rebid because some company from Ohio under bid us by 20%. My boss said no way, I would be paying you to work at that price. 2 weeks later we were off that job site. Then 3 months later that company folded and centex called us back to fix all there eff ups.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> ...They are deeply concerned because there's not really any companies left willing to work that cheap...
> ...This is a "not my problem" scenario for me as I could care less how bad a new construction job needs a plumbing company to do the task....


Yippee!!! Another "I Hate GC's" thread. Of course with the added salt of "And The Plumbers That Feed Them".

I couldn't agree more. A plumbing company working for a residential builder is like having a job but you still have all the burdens of being a business. It's a great racket (if your the builder). After all, the only overhead a GC has is whatever the newest model pickup is available at the time.

These are the commandments home builders must follow:
1. I will not perform any physical labor.
2. If my sub makes a profit, I must show it as an additional loss on my P&L report.
3. I will never pay extra for quality that lasts beyond 365 days.
4. I will treat all other business owners as though they are my personal minions that deserve nothing more than minimum wage. 
5. I must tell lies to all subs. They can't handle the truth.
6. I will promise the landscaper my next two houses (that I am not going to build) if he washes my truck for me.
7. I promise to remain loyal to my plumber as long as no one beats his price by more than .0000001%.
8. I will never admit that I made money.
9. All homes are being built in my honor and as such you are privileged to do my work.
10. The plumbing bill must be cut so we can pay for the granite counter tops and a roof that looks like Cinderella's castle.

There will always be fools that pander to builders. And as long as they do, nothing will change. It's just job security for the "real" service companies. Homes built to fail in 366 days are a dream come true for us.

For those that are doing new work successfully, making a profit, and not cutting corners on quality, I applaud you. But you are definitely the minority.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

satelliteplumah said:


> ...somebodys got to do new construction...


No they don't.

As every aspect of business overhead increases from liability insurance to the phone bill (and all points in between) the rate a builder wants to pay has remained constant for 20+ years. And a major contributing factor is plumbers that buy into the scam.

It may well be that your area is different but in central Oklahoma, the arrogance and Scrooge factor of our home builders is only matched by their incompetence. The plumbers that pander to them are a very close second.

Home sizes increase, material costs increase, business expenses increase, taxes increase, insurance costs increase, food costs more, clothes cost more, and yet plumbers are willing to work at last century's rates.


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

Great info guys.

I'm glad I decided to hold off on going out on my own for now. 2 more years of schooling and I'll have a wife bringing in enough support that when I do start on my own, I will be able to hold my ground against the "market killers."

I've seen both sides of it between my old boss who can retire whenever he wants and only in his young 60's, and the big-rig company I work for now that is working for 7-8% profit. IMO it is still afloat because it's so diversified. They cut and form their own sheet metal. They just opened up an electrical construction branch to add to the hvac, chill water, and plumbing construction. Our hvac service is a cash cow. Our plumbing service is young but successful, and it's only a matter of time they get the electrical service up and running. Plus uncle sam and stimulus money from all of the military work we get has helped immensely. 
Yet I hear from other "use to be big-rigs" that they don't know how we do it. We have destroyed the market, yet are still afloat FOR NOW.


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## satelliteplumah (Jun 20, 2010)

I would like to just say it like this ..if there is new const(builders/contractors) not homeowners, and service, and I could only do one- you can keep service and all those headaches Ill take the new work all day. truth is a lot of service specialist say how houses are no good but couldnt do one if they had to. Just as strictly comm. guys are always saying how easy it is but give them some PVC and well all get a laugh at the 40$ pretzels in the dumpster. Im only one guy to speak for but I say you want service then have at it. :thumbsup:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

satelliteplumah said:


> Im only one guy to speak for but I say you want service then have at it. :thumbsup:


Thanks! I'll take it! :thumbup:


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I already got it, and Im'a gonna keep it. :thumbsup:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

satelliteplumah said:


> ...truth is a lot of service specialist say how houses are no good but couldnt do one if they had to....


That would be me. Some people like to build new things, some people like to fix things. I am the latter of the two. I have no doubts that you could plumb circles around me on a new construction site. However, you don't have to be able to read blueprints to know santees don't go on their side, sewers shouldn't have reverse fall, and people need their plumbing systems to last longer than a year.

It is an undeniable business fact that when your customer to revenue ratio goes down, your business risk dramatically increases. Let's say a shop has 5 different builders that keep the plumber plenty busy. On a particular day, the plumber has a falling out with one of them. He has now lost 20% of his customers. I can't imagine the kind of real work it would take for me to lose 20% of my clients on one day.

Again, I am sure there are plumbers doing quality new work and you are probably one of them. It is just that I never see it here.

The big difference between new work and service is service plumbers are working for the end user whereas in new construction there is a middleman. This single dynamic changes everything.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

satelliteplumah said:


> truth is a lot of service specialist say how houses are no good but couldnt do one if they had to. :thumbsup:



I'd bet you dollars to pesos that any service plumber on this forum could learn new construction in less time than what it would take the construction guy to learn service. I'd go even further and say, that while you are learning service, you may never even make a good tech. If you think service plumbers are not as good as you, then you sir are wrong. 

I intend this as no offense to my brothers in plumbing who do construction, but this is in response to Satellite.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

satelliteplumah said:


> I would like to just say it like this ..if there is new const(builders/contractors) not homeowners, and service, and I could only do one- you can keep service and all those headaches Ill take the new work all day. truth is a lot of service specialist say how houses are no good but couldnt do one if they had to. Just as strictly comm. guys are always saying how easy it is but give them some PVC and well all get a laugh at the 40$ pretzels in the dumpster. Im only one guy to speak for but I say you want service then have at it. :thumbsup:


Every so often, but not as much as I try to work for AHS, I think about doing new work. Then I wake up. 

The poor quality work here--besides the typical hillbilly plumbing--was done by the gypsys working the housing boom. Rarely do I see a bad plumbing job done by a legit business and rarely does a legit new business fail.

New for you, service for me and that's all.


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## satelliteplumah (Jun 20, 2010)

whooa im not saying anything other then I dont like service I never said I couldnt do it, a good service guy is a good sales man thats were I loose it, I never liked it , i know ive met my share of service guys who couldnt do it either..but they could sell, and make a mess, and its the same everywere,and all of us good guys clean up after them!!! If you really care about your reputation youll get work with quality and dont need the phone ringing off the hook,if you rely on service you have to be good at that to stay working and I can appreciate that... also remember im a 1 man band so I may have the luxury of being pickey.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Indie said:


> I'd bet you dollars to pesos that *any service plumber on this forum could learn new construction* in less time than what it would take the construction guy to learn service. I'd go even further and say, that while you are learning service, you may never even make a good tech. If you think service plumbers are not as good as you, then you sir are wrong.
> 
> I intend this as no offense to my brothers in plumbing who do construction, but this is in response to Satellite.


 
No way. It would take twice the time and they'd hate every minute of it.


Everything in new construction is based solely by measurement and location. Rarely is there fudge room. A service plumber will look at a building with a celing with open space during the construction, the new construction plumber is looking at every tradesmen that has to put their work in that ceiling. You have to know blueprints better than the guy who sat in a chair and drew them up, and most times they find out real quick that they can be wrong.

You literally have to know your product exact. To this day, I still don't know how to measure based off centers of fittings. I always go by socket dimension and add times the size of pipe.


I started off in new construction, did it for 8 years, maybe more. At the time I loved it, now I despise it because the fun is removed as you can't make the money it once brought. The union company I worked for...

It was highly competitive back in the day and seems like it was one or another company would always low-ball to get a job, and every damn time the manpower would eat up the profits, jobs that actually cost them money and they'd go through with the finish up. They did this because if they gained a reputation for pulling off jobs because of loss leaders, no chance in hell of getting the next job.

To me, new construction residential, new construction commercial/industrial was day and night. Residential is the simplest form of plumbing there is... so easy a caveman can do it. 

When I was deep into commercial plumbing, I loved it... but only a select few run their own work. If you manage money well, you'll do fine. I don't like to deal with people telling me what to do. I found that to be the case in new construction for commercial... and your other trades? Love them or hate them... and I hated them a lot most times. 

There are a lot of people in service that their realm of knowledge is so limited that new construction overwhelms them completely. 

I'm so thankful I have new construction in my background because it taught me to see inside those walls, understand how the last guy put the system in without ever asking. It should be mandatory teachings in any apprenticeship that you mold the apprentice into the journeyman and concentrate heavier on the new construction side of the equation, giving them the ability to move into service. 

It will make you a better service plumber if you know new construction first. Even better, commercial service. You find out how to get pissed off at plumbers 50+ years ago.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I started out as an apprentice in commercial new con. I've done everything from hospitals, biomedical research labs huge warehouse ect. You see things you'll never come across in residential service. I believe it effects the sort of service plumber I am. I tend to replace old piping instead of just patching it back together. I never learned how to work with lead piping because when I come across it, and it is a problem I remove it completely. 

50 year old faucets with repair parts in the hundreds of dollars, are better off being replaced. The most challenging things I've ever had to do were commercial construction jobs. After solving problems on multi-million dollar projects fixing someone's toilet is pretty easy. With that being said, service and repair is much better for getting paid. It's easier to collect a bill for a few hundred as opposed to a few thousand. The job's are collected on site so you get paid right away. And the biggest service bonus is not having to deal with GCs that could care less if you starve as long as they can make money off you.


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## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

Indie said:


> I'd bet you dollars to pesos that any service plumber on this forum could learn new construction in less time than what it would take the construction guy to learn service. I'd go even further and say, that while you are learning service, you may never even make a good tech.


I think there is some truth to what you said here Indie. I have tons of experience doing both new work and service work. They are almost different trades in a sense. Service work really tests a guy's problem solving abilities, his communication skills, and his ability to interact with people. New work on the other hand is much more conceptual in nature and tests a guy's ability to make a set of plans into a properly functioning plumbing system.

I make no bones about it. If I am given a choice, I prefer new construction. I do think it is in any plumber's best interest to learn to be proficient in both areas though. If a guy is a journeyman like me, it makes him more employable.:thumbup:

I have a philosophy about new construction work. I figure, if I have done my job correctly, the person who inhabits the building I have plumbed will never have any cause to think of me......


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Wow.

I guess I've been pretty well insulated inside my cozy lil' niche.

I had no idea there existed such a contentious divide between Service Plumbers and New Construction Plumbers.

Seriously -- Y'all need to lighten the **** up.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Mr Sattelliteplumah...

In general, you and I are in 100% agreement. Service Plumbing and New Construction are two very different parts of our trade. Much like Drain Maintenance and Plumbing Repairs differ in many ways. My background is service. That in no way puts me in a position to compare my new work efficiency to yours. That's a bet I readily admit I will lose every day. Can I read prints and do a new house? Yes. Can I compete with someone that does it all the time? No.

Do I want to? No. And the reason is because there are too many plumbers that have whored themselves out to residential builders. As a result the pool of customers (residential builders) has been tainted. As a group, the mindset of these builders and the fools that cater to them is cheaper and faster is better. Again, if you are not in that category, I applaud you. And if so, you are not the typical new construction plumber that in our area is fighting over pennies while losing dollars.

I am not prejudiced against stupid new construction plumbers. I hate all stupid plumbers and the service side of the trade has plenty of them as well. But that is another topic all together.

This thread derailed when I interpreted your comments as an insult to the abilities of service plumbers. Maybe I misread. If so, I apologize for the rant. No offense intended, only self defense.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Any good Plumber worth their weight in salt..... should be able to do all aspects of plumbing...

They should be able to rough-in a house.... they should be able to do service work... they should be able to do commercial work new or service..

I find some guys or companys get stuck in a rut... doing the same task over and over again.... does that make you a specialist... no it just dumbs you down for the entire scope of plumbing.

A well rounded plumbing company will do service work, new construction and commercial work.... some may include well and water treatment... some may do boilers and HWT...

The more the better ... I say.... the goal is to diversify...


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

OldSchool said:


> A well rounded plumbing company will do service work, new construction and commercial work.... some may include well and water treatment... some may do boilers and HWT...
> 
> The more the better ... I say.... the goal is to diversify...


 We never got into the Service end of the trade -- Then again, we've never bothered with advertising either. All of our work over the past 20 years or so has been with the same pool of 8 GC's and through referrals from past clients and Showroom Salespeople.

I guess we've been lucky, I've never really felt brow beaten or exploited by the GC's we work for -- We basically put our foot down at the beginning of the relationship and held fast to our principles.

Don't get me wrong, issues have arisen from time to time, the latest being the trend to withhold 10% of the final bill until the client has certified themselves 100% satisfied with the end product -- Having 10% withheld, which is essentially a sizable chunk of our profit, while the Painter or Vacuum Installer dickers around with punch list items can be a real pain in the tukas. But all in all, things have a way of working themselves out in the end.

When we need drains cleaned, jetted or cammed, we call in Fischer Plumbing, if we need faucets rebuilt or repaired or other Service related tasks performed, we split the referrals between Best Plumbing and Quality Plumbing -- All three of them very good shops with trustworthy and very knowledgeable Techs.

We looked into hiring one, maybe two guys with Service backgrounds at the beginning of the boom, but decided that the amount of money spent buying the required tools and buying advertising would be better spent on newish work trucks. Not to mention none of us has any interest in taking on tasks that could see us working until well past 0-Dark-Thirty.

I don't regret the decision and have a great deal of respect for the guys out there wrangling brown trout, herding turds, cracking open live side sewers and making repairs on POS valves and faucets that have long out lived their usefulness.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

For God sakes you are a plumbing company and you hire other plumbing companies because the plumbing is over your head...


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

OldSchool said:


> For God sakes you are a plumbing company and you hire other plumbing companies because the plumbing is over your head...


 No, I hire other Plumbing Companies because:

1) I have more than enough work to keep myself and my guys busy.

2) I have no interest in Service work, nor do the other guys.

3) I genuinely like the guys at the aforementioned companies and like throwing a bit of work their way once in awhile.

4) I think this 'Us versus Them' mentality is asinine.

Here's the difference between you and I, OS (likely not the only difference, too):

I see other Plumbers as Peers -- Not Competitors.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> No, I hire other Plumbing Companies because:
> 
> 1) I have more than enough work to keep myself and my guys busy.
> 
> ...


Some day it will all back fire on you... thinking they are not competitors..

They are in the same buisness like you... someday mark my words they will be taking your work or it will be the other way around...

Number 1 you work to make a living and that boils down to money... along with money comes greed.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Widdershins..you talkin commercial or residential new work?


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

If I may add my $0.02, I have a great deal of respect for service plumbers. My background is mostly industrial maintenance (which is a type of service I suppose) to new const indus, to small and large commercial projects, some of which cost over a billion dollars to build. Fact is, you can learn a bit about how one works from the other side but no one can claim to be an expert at both without years experience on either side. Personally, I'd like to think I could hold my own no matter what is thrown at me, but I would never go as far as to say that I am better or more skilled than anyone on this forum.
Play nice boys, we're hear to share and learn from one another, not cut eachother down...


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

stillaround said:


> Widdershins..you talkin commercial or residential new work?


 Mostly high end residential and then we do 2 or 3 chi chi restaurants a year.

We're in the middle of a high end 6 bath remodel/re-pipe in one of Seattle's oldest neighborhoods at the moment -- We'll probably be there until the middle of April.

We've also got 4 good size takeovers from PC's who bid too low and are now out of business.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

OldSchool said:


> Some day it will all back fire on you... thinking they are not competitors..
> 
> They are in the same buisness like you... someday mark my words they will be taking your work or it will be the other way around...
> 
> Number 1 you work to make a living and that boils down to money... along with money comes greed.


 Different schools of thought on this and different ways of approaching the business model, Old School.

Shouldn't be the end of the world, eh?


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

U.A.til.I.die said:


> Personally, I'd like to think I could hold my own no matter what is thrown at me


 Meh.

I'm too old, fat and banged up to even try wrasslin' a drain cleaner out of the truck, let alone down a couple of flights of stairs.

Best to leave that kind of work to the younger crowd and to those who have an aptitude for it.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*service work rules.....*

If new construction is so great....then why is old BEN 
not touching much of it??? 
they must have figured out something that the rest of us have not...:laughing::yes:.

new construction is basically a marathon race where only the general contractor wins.....
 and you end up holding the bag more than half the time... 

*It literally is a form of slavery,* and if you dont emancipate yourself and 
branch out into service work, you are at the mercy of interest rates, builders
and not enough houses to go around to plumb.....you end up giving the SOB 120 days 
to pay you just to keep them happy and work comming in to keep your employees 
busy....... but eventually they screw you to the wall......




I cant stand the throught of ever kissing someones ass for the privdlidge of 
doing plumbing for them....and putting up about 5k of my money in the 
hopes that the SOB will pay me.....someday


In 08, many plumbing companies were burnt bad by doing new construction
and a lot of them went under in 08 due to the builders sticking them with the bill..




DUNBAR.... here is a little tip for you and anyone else 
out there that has seen old plumbing companies fail back
 in late 08...09.. *those numbers are now available .*


I have bought 5 companies dead phone numbers that once 
belonged to some fairley old companies in town here. 
all for 19 bucks a month each....usually I get about 2 - 5 calls a week from it...


they all bit the dust, but their customers keep calling them....... 
because they tagged the water heaters with their names.......... 


its just sitting there for the asking:yes::yes:.


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## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

U.A.til.I.die said:


> If I may add my $0.02, I have a great deal of respect for service plumbers. My background is mostly industrial maintenance (which is a type of service I suppose) to new const indus, to small and large commercial projects, some of which cost over a billion dollars to build. Fact is, you can learn a bit about how one works from the other side but no one can claim to be an expert at both without years experience on either side. Personally, I'd like to think I could hold my own no matter what is thrown at me, but I would never go as far as to say that I am better or more skilled than anyone on this forum.
> Play nice boys, we're hear to share and learn from one another, not cut eachother down...


You sir, have a great attitude.:thumbup:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I replaced a water heater for a stone mason today, I even took the water heater! Fancy that chit! Walk out basement, only way to go.

He was telling me that they too are making what they did 18 years ago. :blink:


Being on this forum board I noticed that many of these economy blips happened at different times in different locations... some more than others, others not so much.


I was going to take tomorrow off to scrap, but I've got a laundry list of repairs at a subway and convenient store that was put in my lap today. Got a free salad for stopping by and making a list. :thumbsup:


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## CAPLMBR (Oct 29, 2010)

Amen!


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