# Move Copper header on Slab



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)




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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

why pile the dirt on a plastic bag? the bathroom is already a mess.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)




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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Faster cleanup?



ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> why pile the dirt on a plastic bag? the bathroom is already a mess.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Okay, you moved a lil ol manifold, into an existing wall. But, how good are you at roughing in an entire building from scratch?


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Um, why not go ahead and set the shower drain?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> Faster cleanup?


 You can see white carpet in the bedroom from the pic plus the thinset lef ridges on the slab that would have filled with red clay.
I filled the hole back in,tamped it tight and wet it.
The termite guy came and treated the soil again.
I used the plastic to put back over the soil and painted the edges with concrete bonding agent.
Cut a piece of section of wire and laid in a few pieces of rebar. A couple of those piece's are wedged into the slab.
I mixed the concrete with exactly 4.5 pints per 40 # bag.
All the work you see was done by me...alone. It took 9 hrs with a trip to dump the demo concrete and pick up the new bags.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Okay, you moved a lil ol manifold, into an existing wall. But, how good are you at roughing in an entire building from scratch?


 I would be slow,I work alone most of the time. I can make more money doing whats pictured in a shorter time with less headach. Paid at the end of the day too. new works easy rock.....its all easy if your set up for it.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Um, why not go ahead and set the shower drain?


They may level the floor and that would change the height of the drain. Tile guy wanted to wait until he decided what he was going to do. I'll set the drain when I install the faucet then after his pre-pitch I will install the pan.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Your concrete work looks better than your plumbing :laughing:


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

I set the flange of the top of the shower drain about 1/4" below grade, then mud it in. I then, set my pan and and bolt my flange down. This will ensure, that the water in the pan, will make it to the weep holes of the top part of the flange. Water levels itself. And, the top part of the shower drain is adjustable. Pitch by the tile man or not, i still ask you, why not go ahead and set the shower drain?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> Your concrete work looks better than your plumbing :laughing:


 I'm just throwing up pics of everyday type jobs. The point of the post was to show a hard days work from a one man shop. 
I wish i had 4 or 5 of me and I bet u do too:yes:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> I set the flange of the top of the shower drain about 1/4" below grade, then mud it in. I then, set my pan and and bolt my flange down. This will ensure, that the water in the pan, will make it to the weep holes of the top part of the flange. Water levels itself. And, the top part of the shower drain is adjustable. Pitch by the tile man or not, i still ask you, why not go ahead and set the shower drain?


So you dont pre-pitch your floor before the pan goes in? If the slab is not level it will hold water and never get to the weep holes. The drain cannot be set until the floor is leveled. Then pre-pitched.....then the pan goes in.
ADD> Just goes to show you most people do not understand how a tile shower should be built.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Just goes to show you what? That a shower floor area can be over 1/4" out of level from the weep holes of my flange set 1/4" below grade? Really? Not happening. I don't agree or care of your reasoning behind you methods. Ill keep installing mine the same way I have been FOREVER with ZERO (0) callbacks. Let me know if you need a video of my techniques. I don't mind.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Just goes to show you what? That a shower floor area can be over 1/4" out of level from the weep holes of my flange set 1/4" below grade? Really? Not happening. I don't agree or care of your reasoning behind you methods. Ill keep installing mine the same way I have been FOREVER with ZERO (0) callbacks. Let me know if you need a video of my techniques. I don't mind.


If you lay the pan flat on the slab and the slab is not ATLEAST pefectly level the pan WILL hold water,I dont care how far down you set the drain. The entire shower floor should be leveled then the drain set flush with the top of the perfectly level slab. The floor Is then PRE-PITCHED 1/4" per ft. and the pan installed. This eliminates the pan from laying flat or possibly backpitched due to a uneven slab. I rip them out because they are done the way your doing it. keep up the good work:whistling2: The pan liner holding water in a corner will dry rot the pan over about 10-12 yr period. Thats a fact,believe it or not.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

how can something constantly holding water dry rot? IF it were holding water, how could it ever be dry? you need to check your terminology if you want to convince me. Dry rotting does not consist of something that is wet. We todd.:laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> how can something constantly holding water dry rot? IF it were holding water, how could it ever be dry? you need to check your terminology if you want to convince me. Dry rotting does not consist of something that is wet. We todd.:laughing:


It was meant as slang for 'cracks developing" The liner is not meant to hold standing water beneath the tile and stay trapped there. it causes stinky shower syndrome and causes the grout to mildew faster on the shower floor and damages the liner over time.
You will tear one out one day that was laid flat and it will not be flexible anymore and will crack like raw noodles. Write that down so u remember who told ya.:thumbsup: You can attack grammer and nit pick the post to death but your method is inferior. You wouldn't agree a sloped pan would be better than a flat pan? :laughing:


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Sorry Rock but he's right. Shower floors must be sloped before the pan goes in. 

417.5.2 Shower lining. Floors under shower compartments, except where prefabricated receptors have been provided, shall be lined and made water tight utilizing material complying with Sections 417.5.2.1 through 417.5.2.4. Such liners shall turn up on all sides at least 2 inches (51 mm) above the finished threshold level. Liners shall be recessed and fastened to an approved backing so as not to occupy the space required for wall covering, and shall not be nailed or perforated at any point less than 1 inch (25 mm) above the finished threshold. *Liners shall be pitched one-fourth unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent slope) and shall be sloped toward the fixture drains and be securely fastened to the waste outlet at the seepage entrance, making a water-tight joint between the liner and the outlet. 
*


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

If the shower is used every day, the cement will never dry out anyway, pre sloped or not.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Around these parts...we set the flange 1/2" high, the tile setter floats the floor with slope to the drain. Then we set the pan. Oh yeah, we use those drains that are adjustable.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Protech said:


> Your concrete work looks better than your plumbing :laughing:


:laughing:That was funny...


That is some seriously red clay ya got down thar...

Nice work by the way...:thumbsup:


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## evilcyrus (Apr 27, 2009)

i had something like exactly the same. inital call was flood from main line.. i jacked the floor and found that setup.. 3 cop lines all soldered together it was a night mare dont know how that never got caught.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

If we were to go to a tub-set and had to slope the floor for every shower we did before installing the pan, then why shouldn't the concrete guy do this when he poured the slab instead of the plumber being responsible for it? Is the tile man gonna reimburse us for doing part of his job? It's bad enough to have to mix mud to put under a whirlpool tub that some cheapo tub company brought out to the job and left it in the gargage and we are expected to tote it all the way to the master bath for them. Could go on but I do need to mow the lawn. :laughing:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I'll go with not.



TheMaster said:


> If you lay the pan flat on the slab and the slab is not ATLEAST pefectly level the pan WILL hold water,I dont care how far down you set the drain. The entire shower floor should be leveled then the drain set flush with the top of the perfectly level slab. The floor Is then PRE-PITCHED 1/4" per ft. and the pan installed. This eliminates the pan from laying flat or possibly backpitched due to a uneven slab. I rip them out because they are done the way your doing it. keep up the good work:whistling2: The pan liner holding water in a corner will dry rot the pan over about 10-12 yr period. Thats a fact,believe it or not.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

In my entire history as a plumber in Florida I have NEVER seen a preslopped pan. Is it better to have a preslopped pan? Sure. But out of all the showers I've seen I have yet to see one preslopped. We are talking hundreds of thousands of pans here. If what you say is true TM, then you should move to Florida and start a shower replacement company.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

We used to do them flat (unsloped sub-base), but around 10 years ago the inspectors started demanding a sloped sub-base under the pan liner. As much as I hated doing it at first, I do think it's a good idea.

So now I set the drain so the top of the bottom part of it is just a bit below flush with the plywood or concrete floor. I mask the drain base off with electrical tape and pour a sub-base with topping (sand) mix, which is troweled carefully to slope up to the shower edges about an inch or a bit more (depends on the size of pan too). That takes a good trowel and some practice to do well. 

Next day I come back and take a chunk of 2x4 and scrub the green concrete a bit anywhere it looks rough to remove any sharp edges. Then remove the masking tape, shop-vac it all clean and lay in my liner.

The string is cheap cotton packing string poked into the weep holes. The inspectors demanded that too. Helps leave a bit of a gap in the concrete to help it weep better I guess. Can't hurt, I suppose.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Protech said:


> In my entire history as a plumber in Florida I have NEVER seen a preslopped pan. Is it better to have a preslopped pan? Sure. But out of all the showers I've seen I have yet to see one preslopped. We are talking hundreds of thousands of pans here. If what you say is true TM, then you should move to Florida and start a shower replacement company.


Interesting thread ...
We worked for one premire builder for 37 years. During that time we did a lot of homs each one had at least one tiled shower ... Usually in the master bath. Other baths were modules. When we started all pans were lead. Sometimes the showers were so big we had to solder sheets together. A lot of these pans failed in 8-10 years, they were put in flat.
The reason at the time was ... lead was not what it used to be so the material moved to Saraloy. Now any lenght could be made one piece. But in width we were limited to 4' + 6" up front and back or left to right. 
Gluing Saraloy with an overlap usually failed. And these were being put in flat. Now these failed, usually in the first year and as now they were in warranty this plumber was doing tile tear out to find a shower leak for free. Now on tear out I would find stinkey water, rotten wood -- whatever. It was determined by myself and the builder to pre-slope to end the problem. This meant a early trip to the site by the tile contractor. He was not happy at all. My brilliant brain figured out a 
way out of the problem. On roughin all we would do is set the drain.
Then the tile man when he arrived would preslope his first day on job. It now became his responsibilty to make and install the pan. Did I give up anything? Yep an couple of bucks for Saraloy. About 1/2 hour labor to fold the corners any lay it in, cut the hole anf tighten the bolts.* And I gave up any future callback for a water leak from a shower pan.* Any problems the tile man got the call, a couple of jobs his guys forgot the pan ... They leaked like a *****.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

Well I can see yall's point but lets say your are a one man show and you have 3 or more houses to top out that week and the builder has a couple slabs ready for you. 
I can't see making another trip back to the same house the next day to lay the pan, then test when if the builder wants it sloped, he should have the concrete man form and finish it that way when the whole slab is poured. Won't be any skin off his nose to do it but a burden for the plumber for sure. _I'm just saying_


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

We have laid the pan flat forever. Lead pans here last 50 to 60 years. We'll see how long the PVC pans last. 

NSPC now says pans must pitch toward the drain. It's probably a tad better, but not worth all the extra money it costs the HO. 

BTW, I will NEVER install a pan in a shower with a bench. Them wanna be tile guys will pepper that with nails and screws for wonderboard. I have walked away from a bunch, just because we have torn so many out. 

We work with a first class old school tile man. He will wire the curb, nail to the outside face only, and then scratch coat it. With this method, it should outlast a lead pan. 

I cringe when i see Nacho nailing wonderboard all over the curb, inside and out. Then I smile, cause I know I'll probably be fixing it soon.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Plasticman said:


> If we were to go to a tub-set and had to slope the floor for every shower we did before installing the pan, then why shouldn't the concrete guy do this when he poured the slab instead of the plumber being responsible for it? Is the tile man gonna reimburse us for doing part of his job? It's bad enough to have to mix mud to put under a whirlpool tub that some cheapo tub company brought out to the job and left it in the gargage and we are expected to tote it all the way to the master bath for them. Could go on but I do need to mow the lawn. :laughing:


 
Our builders have the tile guys come and slope it.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Im not worried. Never will be. Normally, when i go to replace a shower pan, it was installed incorrectly. Or, Jorge and the boyz nailed the backer board all the way down to the bottom of the base, or some dumbass dropped nails and wut not in it. All pans, that I have seen fail, were ones that failed within 3 yrs of installation, due to miscare of the liner during the rest of the phase of construction, or the wrong drain used. Other pans that I have replaced, that are old as dirt, were pans that i feel have lasted their lifetime. So preach on preacher man, but I ain't buying it. As far as your methods of sloping the floor, will it help, Yes, will I mention or ever do it, nope.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> In my entire history as a plumber in Florida I have NEVER seen a preslopped pan. Is it better to have a preslopped pan? Sure. But out of all the showers I've seen I have yet to see one preslopped. We are talking hundreds of thousands of pans here. If what you say is true TM, then you should move to Florida and start a shower replacement company.


 Just because you have never seen it done right doesn't make me wrong. I think house plumber even posted your code and it requires a pre-slope. Code or not a pre-slope is the way its supose to be done. You have not seen hundreds of thousands of pans being installed so i dont know who your kidding me or yourself.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Im not worried. Never will be. Normally, when i go to replace a shower pan, it was installed incorrectly. Or, Jorge and the boyz nailed the backer board all the way down to the bottom of the base, or some dumbass dropped nails and wut not in it. All pans, that I have seen fail, were ones that failed within 3 yrs of installation, due to miscare of the liner during the rest of the phase of construction, or the wrong drain used. Other pans that I have replaced, that are old as dirt, were pans that i feel have lasted their lifetime. So preach on preacher man, but I ain't buying it. As far as your methods of sloping the floor, will it help, Yes, will I mention or ever do it, nope.


Ok then your not doing a proper job....fine with me. It will not last aslong as the ones i do....thats a fact. I've seen it with my own eyes multiple times.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I have seen entire neighbors hoods built with flat pans. Every pan that I have ever jack hammered open (whether it failed or not) was a flat pan. In fact, the only pre-slopped pan I've ever even seen is in books and on the internet.

As I said before. Is a pre-slopped pan better? Sure. Do I think it's necessary for the pan to last 30-40 years? No.

You have to draw a line somewhere on just how far you are going to go on quality. Why not oversize every house's water system and run it with K hard copper and clean bagged fittings, brazed under a nitrogen blanket, then epoxy coat both the inside and outside of the pipe? Why? Because it's not cost effective/necessary.



TheMaster said:


> Just because you have never seen it done right doesn't make me wrong. I think house plumber even posted your code and it requires a pre-slope. Code or not a pre-slope is the way its supose to be done. You have not seen hundreds of thousands of pans being installed so i dont know who your kidding me or yourself.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

house plumber said:


> Our builders have the tile guys come and slope it.


 Probably because he's working in multi-million dollar properties. Heres an old school southern plantation I worked at today...The owner of this home doesn't ask a price and he wants it done proper not the way you've seen it done hundreds of thousands of times:laughing::whistling2:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> I have seen entire neighbors hoods built with flat pans. Every pan that I have ever jack hammered open (whether it failed or not) was a flat pan. In fact, the only pre-slopped pan I've ever even seen is in books and on the internet.
> 
> As I said before. Is a pre-slopped pan better? Sure. Do I think it's necessary for the pan to last 30-40 years? No.
> 
> You have to draw a line somewhere on just how far you are going to go on quality. Why not oversize every house's water system and run it with K hard copper and clean bagged fittings, brazed under a nitrogen blanket, then epoxy coat both the inside and outside of the pipe? Why? Because it's not cost effective/necessary.


 Does the manufacturer of the pan material require a preslope for a proper installation? What does your plumbing code say about it? Answer me those two questions please.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

I've seen tar paper pans....doesn't make them right.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Plasticman said:


> If we were to go to a tub-set and had to slope the floor for every shower we did before installing the pan, then why shouldn't the concrete guy do this when he poured the slab instead of the plumber being responsible for it? Is the tile man gonna reimburse us for doing part of his job? It's bad enough to have to mix mud to put under a whirlpool tub that some cheapo tub company brought out to the job and left it in the gargage and we are expected to tote it all the way to the master bath for them. Could go on but I do need to mow the lawn. :laughing:


I dont do the pre-slope...I go back and install the pan after the pre-slope is done by others. I charge for the trip and the time.....its no trouble for me to do it right. I can't help it you bid jobs too cheap to cover the time it takes to do it right and then ***** about how you dont get paid to do this and that.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Manufacture recommendations. On the right hand side of page it says dam corners, under that there is a note. Read that.

http://www.oatey.com/apps/catalog/instance_assets/assets/How_to_Use/Shower Pan Liner.pdf


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

house plumber said:


> Manufacture recommendations. On the right hand side of page it says dam corners, under that there is a note. Read that.
> 
> http://www.oatey.com/apps/catalog/instance_assets/assets/How_to_Use/Shower Pan Liner.pdf


 Oh what do they know:whistling2:They just make and test the stuff:drink:.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Probably because he's working in multi-million dollar properties. Heres an old school southern plantation I worked at today...The owner of this home doesn't ask a price and he wants it done proper not the way you've seen it done hundreds of thousands of times:laughing::whistling2:



Thats a small house dude.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

Well, we are liable for only 1 year. After that, you come to Florida and fix it your way. We got our money :thumbup1:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Plasticman said:


> Well, we are liable for only 1 year. After that, you come to Florida and fix it your way. We got our money :thumbup1:


 Whats funny is the people that are always talking up quality and talking down to handy hacks are really no better when it comes down to it.:whistling2:
Ricks handyman services prolly says the same when his pics get posted.........."We got our money":whistling2:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't agree. I think the lack of quality in workmanship across the board is a major factor in our country's decline. Just remember, the people building your car, the roads you drive on, your house, your doctor, etc all now have that same mentality. How does that make you feel? America, the "We got our money :thumbup1:" country. 

Also, latent defect are the contractors liability for up to 12 years. An incorrectly installed shower pan could be considered a latent defect.......



Plasticman said:


> Well, we are liable for only 1 year. After that, you come to Florida and fix it your way. We got our money :thumbup1:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

You may take one extra step in quality than I do in this area (though history has shown that my way works just fine too and represents the "norm" in my area) but I think you are going a bit far by calling me a hack. Some guys would say simply using pex makes you a hack. I guess that would make you a hack then huh? I mean, you don't seem to have any water quality issues there that cause copper to corrode and yet you use pex. I guess that makes you a hack that's cheaping out then by your own logic huh? Why don't you spend the extra money and time and use copper all the time instead of pex huh?

I think I have made my point. Obviously, I have no problem with pex, I was just trying to make a point. And don't come back and call me a hypocrite because I use pex .



TheMaster said:


> Whats funny is the people that are always talking up quality and talking down to handy hacks are really no better when it comes down to it.:whistling2:
> Ricks handyman services prolly says the same when his pics get posted.........."We got our money":whistling2:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> You may take one extra step in quality than I do in this area (though history has shown that my way works just fine too and represents the "norm" in my area) but I think you are going a bit far by calling me a hack. Some guys would say simply using pex makes you a hack. I guess that would make you a hack then huh? I mean, you don't seem to have any water quality issues there that cause copper to corrode and yet you use pex. I guess that makes you a hack that's cheaping out then by your own logic huh? Why don't you spend the extra money and time and use copper all the time instead of pex huh?
> 
> I think I have made my point. Obviously, I have no problem with pex, I was just trying to make a point. And don't come back and call me a hypocrite because I use pex .


 Your installing materials WRONG. Whats your plumbing code say? What does the manufacturer say? Now ask yourself what Ricky would do:laughing:
Pex is not the subject and the pex I install is installed proper.....so its not the same.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Thats a small house dude.


Thats his country house that sits on 70 acres with a 1.5 acre pond. It was built like you see for a purpose that i will not disclose. The antiques in that house are worth more than everybody who has posted on this thread combined...myself included.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Running a heater pan drain in pvc is against code to. Everyone including yourself does that too though and has for the past 30 years now. No problems yet.........



TheMaster said:


> Thats his country house that sits on 70 acres with a 1.5 acre pond. It was built like you see for a purpose that i will not disclose. The antiques in that house are worth more than everybody who has posted on this thread combined...myself included.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Protech said:


> Running a heater pan drain in pvc is against code to. Everyone including yourself does that too though and has for the past 30 years now. No problems yet.........


 
A pan drain come back :laughing:, come on PT you can do better than that :laughing:.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It is against code here. Wouldn't want to break that code. That would make me a hack :whistling2:

Also, it's irrelevant if EVERYONE does is and all the inspectors sign off on it. It's still wrong. You’re a hack no better than a handyman or DIYer if you do it. :whistling2:


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Schluter-Kerdi is the only way to go.

http://www.schluter.com/8_1_kerdi.aspx


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I dunno about that XPS curb. That seems like it isn't strong enough for tile. Even if you put mortar and lath over it I don't think it would hold up after years of some fat guy stepping on it......but who knows..



PLUMB TIME said:


> Schluter-Kerdi is the only way to go.
> 
> http://www.schluter.com/8_1_kerdi.aspx


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

Yes, I am a hack with a license, certified at that. Coming to your town soon. :laughing:


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Protech said:


> I dunno about that XPS curb. That seems like it isn't strong enough for tile. Even if you put mortar and lath over it I don't think it would hold up after years of some fat guy stepping on it......but who knows..


 
Time will tell, but the system itself I believe is bulletproof.

I personally don't like doing the pan anymore because of everyone who is on or around it after I leave.
It doesn't matter how many warnings and notes you put up, if one person drops something your screwed. But I'm sure they will tell me so I can make the repair before the pour:whistling2::no:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> Running a heater pan drain in pvc is against code to. Everyone including yourself does that too though and has for the past 30 years now. No problems yet.........


 Its not against the code here....infact the pan comes with a pvc connection. Your reaching:whistling2:. 
If the slab is not pres-sloped before the liner everything used to clean that shower eventually gets washed down to the liner where it sits because it cant drain itself. Over time this rots the liner nd causes it to crack. make sense?:whistling2:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Nope. Never seen a "dry rotted" vinyl liner.



TheMaster said:


> Its not against the code here....infact the pan comes with a pvc connection. Your reaching:whistling2:.
> If the slab is not pres-sloped before the liner everything used to clean that shower eventually gets washed down to the liner where it sits because it cant drain itself. Over time this rots the liner nd causes it to crack. make sense?:whistling2:


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Oatey does say and show the small pre slope under the pan liner . It doesn't hurt AND what the hell is a few bucks in port-land and sand ?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> Nope. Never seen a "dry rotted" vinyl liner.


keep looking


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Cal said:


> Oatey does say and show the small pre slope under the pan liner . It doesn't hurt AND what the hell is a few bucks in port-land and sand ?


Its common sense cal. Why would a guy argue with pitching the liner thats suppose to convey water to the drain?? Thats just plain stupid.:whistling2:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Protech said:


> Running a heater pan drain in pvc is against code to. Everyone including yourself does that too though and has for the past 30 years now. No problems yet.........


 
I already have my Cu tools out. My pan drains get run in Cu.

The shower floor needs to be sloped to the weep holes before the pan is installed. 

1. Because my code requires it
2. It's good work practice.
3. Most importantly--- I don't think the liner will "rot"...... BUT, the shower will eventually develop an odor that cannot be gotten rid of. Water laying under that liner for months at a time is gonna STINK folks.

Do we run drains level? A shower floor and sub-base are fixture drains. They should be pitched.

I think you guys just want to argue.......:yes:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

The house next to me (and every house in this neighborhood) has a flat pan and has since the mid sixties. Somehow, it has managed to work all these years and it doesn't stink........And yes, we love to argue. That’s why we come here. 



Matt said:


> I already have my Cu tools out. My pan drains get run in Cu.
> 
> The shower floor needs to be sloped to the weep holes before the pan is installed.
> 
> ...


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> The house next to me (and every house in this neighborhood) has a flat pan and has since the mid sixties. Somehow, it has managed to work all these years and it doesn't stink........And yes, we love to argue. That’s why we come here.


 And what kinda pan did they use in the 60's? Does bleach eat metal pans? How do you know all these pans are flat unless you tear it up? 
You can argue till the end of time but you'll never defeat these four things....
1. Code requires it.
2. The manufacturer requires it for a proper install.
3. Common sense tells you a receptor that's built to convey water to a drain on a daily basis should be sloped to allow proper drainage.
4. I've done hundreds of tear outs and replacements and know what pvc liner will do if it sits in water. It splits and leaks.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Because I've done several bathroom remodels in my own neighborhood. We moved showers all the time and they were usually copper (though sometimes bituminous) and they were ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL FLAT. These were pans that DID NOT leak. They were replaced for cosmetic purposes only. So how did all these flat pans survive 50 years and not fail?



TheMaster said:


> And what kinda pan did they use in the 60's? Does bleach eat metal pans? How do you know all these pans are flat unless you tear it up?
> You can argue till the end of time but you'll never defeat these four things....
> 1. Code requires it.
> 2. The manufacturer requires it for a proper install.
> ...


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> Because I've done several bathroom remodels in my own neighborhood. We moved showers all the time and they were usually copper (though sometimes bituminous) and they were ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL FLAT. These were pans that DID NOT leak. They were replaced for cosmetic purposes only. So how did all these flat pans survive 50 years and not fail?


They were not pvc liners that's how they lasted and over time the shower floor becomes less porous from all the soap and shiot.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Was there a point in there somewhere?



TheMaster said:


> They were not pvc liners that's how they lasted and over time the shower floor becomes less porous from all the soap and shiot.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> Was there a point in there somewhere?


 Yes your not building pans out of the same material they did 60 years ago, And the POINT IS A PAN LINER SHOULD NOT BE LAID FLAT. YOU CAN DO IT WRONG IF YOU WANT BUT DONT TRY TO BULLSHIT THE REST OF US TRYING TO TELL PEOPLE IT DOESN'T MATTER. :whistling2:
Whats your plumbing code require? JUST TO MAKE SURE YOU SEE IT

WHATS YOUR PLUMBING CODE SAY ABOUT THE PAN LINER FOR A SHOWER BEING PITCH TOWARD THE DRAIN?


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

it says,,,, the tile man is responsible to pitch the floor toward the drain. Get your glasses on. It's in tiny print just below how to be a perfect plumber :001_tongue:


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> They were not pvc liners that's how they lasted and over time the shower floor becomes less porous from all the soap and shiot.



So now folks, PVC will corrode faster than copper or lead. Holy ***** we are in trouble now.:laughing:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I use a surfactant on all my PVC drains. Gotta keep em wet.......


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> So now folks, PVC will corrode faster than copper or lead. Holy ***** we are in trouble now.:laughing:


 How does plastic corrode? Avoid the subject all you want but it doesn't change the fact that your installing your pans wrong and not to code......and the install is inferior,the main reason why you shouldn't be doing it.
Well atleast your not ignorant to what your doing wrong now....I feel better about that part of it all.:laughing:
That drunk day plumber you have is making posts again I see


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> How does plastic corrode? Avoid the subject all you want but it doesn't change the fact that your installing your pans wrong and not to code......and the install is inferior,the main reason why you shouldn't be doing it.
> Well atleast your not ignorant to what your doing wrong now....I feel better about that part of it all.:laughing:
> That drunk day plumber you have is making posts again I see



Now Now Tm, no need for name calling, we are just having a discussion. If these are the tactics you want to resort to, then I'll leave you be. Lets be grown ups?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Now Now Tm, no need for name calling, we are just having a discussion. If these are the tactics you want to resort to, then I'll leave you be. Lets be grown ups?


 I didn't mention any names.:laughing: Can ya guess who i was refering to?:yes: I bet ya can:laughing: No names mentioned just a description:whistling2:


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I didn't mention any names.:laughing: Can ya guess who i was refering to?:yes: I bet ya can:laughing: No names mentioned just a description:whistling2:



Still doesnt seem to answer your comment about the lead and copper pans outlasting the PVC liners. I m so coufused.:blink:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Still doesnt seem to answer your comment about the lead and copper pans outlasting the PVC liners. I m so coufused.:blink:


 lead and copper pans will outlast a pvc liner.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> lead and copper pans will outlast a pvc liner.


Even if they are not pitched?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Even if they are not pitched?


 A flat copper or lead pan will outlast a flat pvc liner under normal conditions.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Well I've installed a few pans in my mom's rental properties over the years. I'll get back with you on this in about 30 years and we will see. :laughing:



TheMaster said:


> A flat copper or lead pan will outlast a flat pvc liner under normal conditions.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> Well I've installed a few pans in my mom's rental properties over the years. I'll get back with you on this in about 30 years and we will see. :laughing:


 I've installed a few hundred pans...get back to me when you've been plumbing for 25 years and give me some real experience instead of what you've seen or read on the internet. I've been around long enough and I'm still young enough to remember wtf I've seen with my own eyes. Just remember who told you the right way and why. 
We have been skinning other plumbers around here and we have been doin it for years over 75 years for two main reasons.
1. They dont care
2. They dont know


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

house plumber said:


> Our builders have the tile guys come and slope it.


Ditto, here as well. Never touch them.:thumbup:
Why would you want to?


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

:drink: :drink: :drink: :drink:

1 more and I will be back to post again. :laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Plasticman said:


> :drink: :drink: :drink: :drink:
> 
> 1 more and I will be back to post again. :laughing:


 Pass me a few after the day i had today. Very busy here with remodels and repairs.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Pass me a few after the day i had today. Very busy here with remodels and repairs.


Me too. I had to do Baysides job today because he couldn't handle it and took today off. :jester:

Or he had to get an a/c inspection done at his house. I know it was one of those 2 reasons.


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

house plumber said:


> Me too. I had to do Baysides job today because he couldn't handle it and took today off. :jester:
> 
> Or he had to get an a/c inspection done at his house. I know it was one of those 2 reasons.



at least i did all the digging for ya on friday :thumbup:


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Bayside500 said:


> at least i did all the digging for ya on friday :thumbup:


Ya I like the nice radius there in the back. did johnny dig that instead of digging for 2 1/8th bends?


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