# Wolverine Brass T/S valve



## user2090

Today I had an opportunity to replace an old 3-handle valve tub/shower valve with a Wolverine Brass Essence. I had an economy brand with me also. When I presented the two options to the customer, the husband was all over the Wolv. Essence. That valve was built like a tank. Everything about that valve just seemed to reek quality. I bet the showerhead weighed in at about the same as the body of the economy one. 

If that valve is an indication of how they make the rest of their valves, I see no reason not to start installing them. I really want to get my hands on a lav. and kitchen faucet to check them out. 

On another note, when I told the lady of the house that the cartridge had a 100 year warranty, she laughed at me, then I showed her the paperwork.

I would love to hear from those that actually install the Wolv. Brass faucet line. I know that a couple of thread have touched on them, but it can't hurt to hear some more.

Yes TM, I know your a Delta man.:laughing:


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## TheMaster

I bet you didn't tell him if he needs parts that he cant call the manufacturer and request parts.


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## user2090

TheMaster said:


> I bet you didn't tell him if he needs parts that he cant call the manufacturer and request parts.


He can't call the manufacturer and get parts, so why would I tell him that? If I'm not mistaken, only a plumber can buy and install those parts(as I read the paperwork). With a 100 year warranty, seems I won't have to worry for quite a while.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Good thread. 


Last week a customer called me, had her mother meet me there to unclog a toilet. The woman told me that she couldn't find the phone number to the plumber who installed the brass lavatory faucets just last month.


I told that woman, "Do you know that only that installing plumber can get parts for it, and that you won't find parts at a supply house or big box store?" 


I didn't even have to lie.


I'm now their plumber as she took this move as deceptive, even though she had a positive experience with the plumber. He just didn't divulge that knowledge.


I was at a home today that a Wolverine Brass fill valve in a toilet is malfunctioning...told the customer I can't even buy the leathers for that without BS. 

Told her I can switch it to a 400A, 

DONE. 

I make money gaining the trust of the new customer with that revelation. Thanks Wolverine Brass. :laughing:


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## 3KP

I have installed a lavatory faucet. T/S faucet and I do have a kitchen faucet in the shop on the shelf/ WB is a good product. As for my customers I flat out tell em you can't find parts for these faucets you will have to contact us. Parts are free for 100 years and I give a X amount of warranty on my labor. They still jump on it like fly on a cow patty.


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## TheMaster

I have a lifetime warranty from circuit city for my car stereo installation.......WTF is it good for now? F a warranty and especially one that I need a 3rd party for me to get it honored.


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## Redwood

Just another one of those things we agree to disagree on...

There are a couple of shyster outfits up here that sell WB stuff...

Yea I get a lot of their calls.

They seem to be going for that get your foot in every door one time effect....

I like going back for other jobs...:thumbup:


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## RealLivePlumber

I use the Endurance line, with the loop handle. Good stuff. 

Over the weekend, I was at a party at my old house. (relatives of a friend purchased it from me, 11 years ago.)

The 1st floor bath had WB endurance in it. I believe I remodeled that bath about 14 years ago, and those faucets (lav and t/s) were looking like new:thumbsup:. 

I did get a funny look from the chick that owns the place. She musta heard me turn the shower on. I was checking it out, to see how the handle felt and all. :laughing:

(That might make a good thread, "as a plumber, what do you do/look at in other houses/buildings)


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## user2090

Putting in Wolverine Brass has nothing to do with trying to deliberately deceive a customer. It has everything to do with wanting to put in the best product, for the customer. 
I personally don't have to worry about my own moral compass, because I am never out to rip off a customer. I really have a severe dislike for those plumbers that go out and rip on their competition. 

Dunbar: Good for you, you gained another customer. The funny thing is, if they had the number for the original plumber, you would never have known. Good catch, without you, they might have never known that the other plumber was out to rip them off with gimmicks.

As for the agree to disagree: I agree. I want to install the best product for my customers, plain and simple. We had a meeting with one of our suppliers today, letting them know our displeasure with the junk fittings and products they have been sending us. We want to use the best products and if he can't get them, then he loses our business.

For those, who go out and rip on the competition: Shame on you, it does know one any good to speak negative about others.


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## TheMaster

Selling a faucet that the customer cant buy parts is not doing them any favors....i dont care how good the faucet is suppose to be.


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## user2090

TheMaster said:


> Selling a faucet that the customer cant buy parts is not doing them any favors....i dont care how good the faucet is suppose to be.


If you would care to elaborate. How does selling a faucet that repairs parts can be found at a local hardware a good thing? I understand that you are successful with what you do, and have been in the trade for a long time. For the sake of those who don't understand(Me), help me understand. Is in not in my best interest to install a good product, and not make it easy for any handy-hack to go get repair parts for.


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## RealLivePlumber

Here we go again:icon_rolleyes::wallbash:


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## Phat Cat

Indie said:


> If you would care to elaborate. How does selling a faucet that repairs parts can be found at a local hardware a good thing? I understand that you are successful with what you do, and have been in the trade for a long time. For the sake of those who don't understand(Me), help me understand. Is in not in my best interest to install a good product, and not make it easy for any handy-hack to go get repair parts for.


Perhaps WB is actually looking out for the homeowner. WB knows what damage can result when plumbing is done by a novice. That's why they make an excellent product that will last so the HO does not have to bother with fixing it. If for some reason, a part would fail . . . WB protects the HO from themselves. Just a thought.

Also, WB faucets are priced at a very competitive price. No $700.00 faucets at WB. Also, they don't re-invent the wheel every year and change cartridges, parts etc. For the plumbing repair co., stocking repair parts is much easier.

I know others don't agree because they don't want to be bothered with having to call WB direct and getting the part.

However, what's the difference in what other manufacturers do? American Standard faucets - you have to wait for them to ship the part. HO was without a working k.s. faucet for one week. Kohler parts - you have to wait for Kohler to ship and we all know how that goes. Toto parts - we wait for parts to be shipped. Grohe parts - we wait for parts. Jacuzzi tubs - we wait for parts to be shipped.

If WB would only sell to one plumber in an area, then I would agree. However, any licensed plumber can order from WB! 

In our area there are at least 14 plumbing cos. selling WB. Customers are not held captive to any particular plumbing company.

I guess plumbers who hard pipe water heaters are SOB's because it makes it harder for the HO to replace their own water heater if they cannot solder.

I guess plumbers who use PEX are jerks because the average HO does not want to invest in crimping tools to repair their own plumbing.

Explain to me as well why WB is so bad? I really do not get it.

I think plumbers should be more upset about companies like Delta mass producing junk and selling out the plumbing professional who put them on the map.


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## TheMaster

Indie said:


> If you would care to elaborate. How does selling a faucet that repairs parts can be found at a local hardware a good thing? I understand that you are successful with what you do, and have been in the trade for a long time. For the sake of those who don't understand(Me), help me understand. Is in not in my best interest to install a good product, and not make it easy for any handy-hack to go get repair parts for.


You answered your own question. Your making it hard for most to get parts. Put this in your next sales presentation....."This wolverine faucet has a great warranty but in the event that it does need repair in say 10 years.....no hardware store around will have the parts and you cant buy them yourself and wolverine will not send you a cartridge for it but they will send it to me and then i will charge you to install it,so dont bother ever trying to buy parts"......see how well that goes over with MOST MALE customers.

I would immediately think to myself....."where is this punk gonna be in 10 years and who else around here MIGHT agree to work on it?"


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## Phat Cat

TM - You have said many times that the LadyLux faucet is the best. I think you even said you had one in your home.

Does Lowes or Home Depot carry repair parts?

If the home owner calls Grohe, will they know what part to order?

If the home owner takes it apart, do you really think the supply house will jump through hoops to get this HO a part? I think not.

I heard directly from a Kohler Rep. "If a plumber calls for information or has a warranty issue, he will get immediate attention and assistance. If a HO calls, they will be asked where they bought the faucet and who installed it. If it was purchased from a home center, they will tell the customer to take it back to the home center."

I've never tested it out to see if it is true, but if it isn't a Kohler rep. flat out lied to me!

I will take my chances with WB.


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## TheMaster

PlumbCrazy said:


> TM - You have said many times that the LadyLux faucet is the best. I think you even said you had one in your home.
> 
> Does Lowes or Home Depot carry repair parts?
> 
> If the home owner calls Grohe, will they know what part to order?
> 
> If the home owner takes it apart, do you really think the supply house will jump through hoops to get this HO a part? I think not.
> 
> I heard directly from a Kohler Rep. "If a plumber calls for information or has a warranty issue, he will get immediate attention and assistance. If a HO calls, they will be asked where they bought the faucet and who installed it. If it was purchased from a home center, they will tell the customer to take it back to the home center."
> 
> I've never tested it out to see if it is true, but if it isn't a Kohler rep. flat out lied to me!
> 
> I will take my chances with WB.


I do think the ladylux is the best k-faucet and I do own one and I like it. A homeowner can call grohe and get parts without a problem and they can get them for free. Its in the warranty. They ship them directly to the customer for free. Lifetime warranty. Cant do that with wolverine....infact its the ONLY faucet I know of that you cant call up and get your warranty honored.


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## pauliplumber

PC, that Kohler rep definitely lied to you. 

I've had a few customers call Kohler and were sent free parts.

I have a Kohler kitchen faucet, I needed a part a few times, they never asked where I got it or if I was plumber.

BTW, I'm not a big Kohler fan but I've mostly had good experiences with their customer service.


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## user2090

TheMaster said:


> I do think the ladylux is the best k-faucet and I do own one and I like it. A homeowner can call grohe and get parts without a problem and they can get them for free. Its in the warranty. They ship them directly to the customer for free. Lifetime warranty. Cant do that with wolverine....infact its the ONLY faucet I know of that you cant call up and get your warranty honored.


Ok, TM, we're not going to agree on this. But, I will make a few more points.
1. I do disclose that the parts are only available to a plumber(siince I only installed one in the last four years). I also tell them that when I sell a Bradford White heater, I let them know BW is only sold to the Plumbing Professional. Yes you can buy repair parts for the BW, but their not OEM.
2. If I'm out there, its because they called for a plumber, so their not interested in fixing it themselves.
3. I obviously service a different clientele than you do, so don't speak for my customers until you've worked for them. I would not know how to service yours without learning their habits.
Just today I went out to the lake house of a CEO of a local chain of Hospitals, because his attempt to repair his toilets failed, and he didn't know how to repair the shower valve. Do you think he would want me to leave him the parts on the counter with instructions?
Can we still be friends?:lol:


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## Phat Cat

TheMaster said:


> I do think the ladylux is the best k-faucet and I do own one and I like it. A homeowner can call grohe and get parts without a problem and they can get them for free. Its in the warranty. They ship them directly to the customer for free. Lifetime warranty. Cant do that with wolverine....infact its the ONLY faucet I know of that you cant call up and get your warranty honored.


The HO can get it if they know what to ask for (I'm referring to the Ladylux).

Back to WB, if we installed a WB faucet and a few years down the line the customer needed a new cartridge, I would be more than happy to get them one for free. Again, it makes no sense for a company to hold the customer hostage. We want them dependent on us, but not at the expense of losing a customer.

So what they want to replace their own cartridge - they will still need us for future plumbing.

We will succeed because ultimately we do take care of our customers and put their needs at the forefront. We look for long term loyal customers with long term gains. Short term gains serves no one well if you hope to stay in business.


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## Phat Cat

pauliplumber said:


> PC, that Kohler rep definitely lied to you.
> 
> I've had a few customers call Kohler and were sent free parts.
> 
> I have a Kohler kitchen faucet, I needed a part a few times, they never asked where I got it or if I was plumber.
> 
> BTW, I'm not a big Kohler fan but I've mostly had good experiences with their customer service.


Maybe he did not lie. Maybe that is what he was told. IDK. None of them impress me 100% of the time. I've had problems with all of them at one time or another. Bottom line is no plumbing manufacturer is 100% perfect. 

I don't believe Delta, Kohler, Moen etc. are all evil.

They all have their flaws and short comings. WB not selling to HO's will be seen as a short coming to some and others will love it. :yes:

HO's cannot buy the ProSeries Fluidmaster line. That does not make Fluidmaster evil either.

Dollar for dollar, at this time I believe WB is a better value.


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## GREENPLUM

Its hard to know what a good faucet is, if you have never installed one. Take advice from someone with experience and drop the WB


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## TheMaster

PlumbCrazy said:


> The HO can get it if they know what to ask for (I'm referring to the Ladylux).
> 
> Back to WB, if we installed a WB faucet and a few years down the line the customer needed a new cartridge, I would be more than happy to get them one for free. Again, it makes no sense for a company to hold the customer hostage. We want them dependent on us, but not at the expense of losing a customer.
> 
> So what they want to replace their own cartridge - they will still need us for future plumbing.
> 
> We will succeed because ultimately we do take care of our customers and put their needs at the forefront. We look for long term loyal customers with long term gains. Short term gains serves no one well if you hope to stay in business.


Well sure if you know what to ask for you can get it like most stuff......except a wolverine cartridge. The ladylux comes with an owners guide and its my responsibility to hand it to them and its their responsibility to keep up with it. On the other hand a wolverine faucet warranty is only honored through a plumber. Cutting the homeowner out of his own picture.....just make sure you tell each and everyone of your customers that.


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## user2090

GREENPLUM said:


> Its hard to know what a good faucet is, if you have never installed one. Take advice from someone with experience and drop the WB


Now that is exactly what I'm talking about. Care to tell some stories?


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## Phat Cat

GREENPLUM said:


> Its hard to know what a good faucet is, if you have never installed one. Take advice from someone with experience and drop the WB


That is exactly what I have done. Quite a few professionals on PZ have shared their experience as it relates to the quality of WB. I've read their posts for a long time and I trust their experience since they work with them all the time.

I think we all know why they are not posting on this thread. They are successful and do not feel the need to justify their decisions/choices to a bunch of plumbers who are in different markets and have a different perspective.

BTW, you don't have to install one to see how some are cheaply made. But thank you for you input.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

​


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## Redwood

Yep!

Looks like heavy duty plastic quality to me...:whistling2:


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## Protech

The biggest problem with that design is the lack of renewable compression. Once compression of the disks or "Mickey mouse" seal is lost due to disk wear, you get a drip. All that can be done is cartridge replacement.

There are a few cartridges out there that have a packing nut that can re-compress the cartridge. All you do is tighten the nut down and your good for another decade. 



Redwood said:


> Yep!
> 
> Looks like heavy duty plastic quality to me...:whistling2:


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## PlungerJockey

I worked for a flat rate company several years ago that pushed WB faucets. I remember having to replace alot of cartriges in kitchen faucets. The shower valves seemed to hold up ok, and the spread handle lav faucets didn't have any problems.

I only see one advantage selling WB products, Consumers cannot price shop the products. They are a great faucet for companies with higher than normal material mark up.


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## Redwood

PlungerJockey said:


> I worked for a flat rate company several years ago that pushed WB faucets. *I remember having to replace alot of cartriges in kitchen faucets*. The shower valves seemed to hold up ok, and the spread handle lav faucets didn't have any problems.
> 
> I only see one advantage selling WB products, Consumers cannot price shop the products. They are a great faucet for companies with higher than normal material mark up.


Yea, something about that lever handle snapping the top of the cartridge off...:laughing:
But hey! It's guaranteed for 100 years...:whistling2:


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## Tankless

I've read all the posts and the way I see it, If it makes you money and you can sleep well at night....isn't that the goal?

I'm just like you guys with respect to my tankless heaters. I have my favorite, I know it inside and out. My goal in business is to make as much money as I can and do it with the highest of integrity. I am setting an example for my children and even though they never see me making a sale I believe they know their daddy does the right thing. Just having the attitude and confidence of that exudes that to my kids....I don't know...maybe I'm just an idiot.....it is possible but at the end of the day I do what I have been taught and everything else I have learned to do the best I can for my clients, what else can I do?

Now if we're keeping it simple and simply asking do you agree it's a good thing to sell a product that only professionals can buy?

As long as one can't gets the parts from the box stores, I'm happy with that. I think those that enjoy the fact that only THEMSELVES can get them repair parts are the same kind of guys that often scare people into additional work. It's one thing to suggest something be addressed versus telling a client their house can blowup because they have a dripping anglestop under the sink. To me, the main reason you would dell a particular item is becaused it's the best for them, not because you can rake them on a required service call.

Additionally I sorta like the fact that when I tell someone it's a top notch product I would use the fact that they won't sell to homeowners because this stuff requires a professional. I think in a case like this showing them a body of NB versus some PP or Delta valve would easily let the homeowner make up their own mind. Don't just tell them, show them.

For the record: Redwood still has the best signature on the site


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## Don The Plumber

If you have a customer that thinks he/she can repair a faucet, but does not believe he/she is capable of replacing one, then if your selling them a WB faucet, why not sell them an extra repair, or rebuild kit, for the faucet? Then when they have to repair the faucet, & they wanna do it themselves, they can simply install the extra parts, so there faucet is back working, they could mail, or bring old parts to plumber, anytime, to then replace under warranty.
I'm sure it can't cost that much, & this way they should be problem free for 200 years.:whistling2:


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## john_mccormack

For the record: Redwood still has the best signature on the site[/quote]

I actually like Matt's signature; I've had soooo many HO's looking over my shoulder, questioning why I'm doing a certain something, because that's not what some DIY website said to do. :no:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Here's the question for the Wolverine Brass reps that refuse to challenge my thinking on their product...



Why do so many customers, new customers come to me 

1. Not always knowing that the Wolverine Brass faucet cannot be fixed without going through hoops

2. Not staying with their original plumber when supposedly their product does so well

3. Are DEEPLY upset when they realize they own a product that only a select few can work on/supply repair parts to.


Get that F-ing rep on this site, quit hiding behind the name and grow a pair and tell me why the customer base is upset. Then tell us why there are plumbers like myself profiting from this.

I've been around enough to see how often putting in 'exclusive' or 'unique' products in a home has a backlash, both with customer satisfaction and customer relations that wow, 

*maybe home ownership is tough at times and I cannot afford a plumber, and maybe I'll task this job myself. I have a good plumber but I need to save money where I can. I'm glad my plumber thought enough of me to keep it simple.*

There's so much work out there that I don't even care if the customer calls another plumber, or does it themself. Give me the hard stuff, I don't care. 

I just don't want to be the guy that set the trap and another plumber now has leverage over me to put it out there that I baited my customer into a corner. 

^^^^

Great signature line right there


You will *NOT* find that deceptive work practice being played with Dunbar Plumbing in the Northern Kentucky/Greater Cincinnati area, *ever.*


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## user2090

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Here's the question for the Wolverine Brass reps that refuse to challenge my thinking on their product...
> 
> ^^^^
> 
> Great signature line right there
> 
> 
> You will *NOT* find that deceptive work practice being played with Dunbar Plumbing in the Northern Kentucky/Greater Cincinnati area, *ever.*


1. I think your the one to answer your own question. Their your customers, why are they calling you.
2. The only thing I hear you saying is that the main problem with wolverine brass is that the repair parts can be hard to come by. What is any different than most of the rest of the faucets out there, if you stock the repair parts you can fix the faucet.
How often do you get called to repair a wolverine brass faucet?
Let me ask another question. Do they have the idea its deception before or after you think it is?
A suggestion: Buy a trailer to haul that massive ego you have. If you don't like the faucet then don't put them in. Oh, and  off.

To the rest of the people that decided to get on here just to bash a product, and insult those that would put them(no matter the reason).
This thread was intended to share an experience with a new product. One that seemed to be a quality product. I was simply looking to receive some feedback from those I have assumed are professionals. But, as always most have proven themselves to be *******s that think their opinion is on level with God. It is no wonder that most don't like plumbers.


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## Redwood

Tankless said:


> For the record: Redwood still has the best signature on the site


Thanks! :laughing:

I've really got to thank *Plumber* though for that great discussion we had on thermal expansion tanks... :thumbup:

Without him it would not have been possible...:laughing:


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## Richard Hilliard

*wolverine brass t&s*

Dah we are plumber’s guys. The wolverine brass two handle faucets use Moen commercial cartridges. The parts are available. The single lever cartridges can also be found. I like the wolverine brass faucets, they are long lasting and work fantastic. They are a great looking faucet with very little plastic. The remodel plate for tub and showers is one piece and very solid. They cannot compete with a nice Grohe or Kohler high end faucet, Moen and Delta cannot compete either.

Dunbar how do you represent it to the client with a Kohler one piece ballcock or the Briggs case ballcock? I am pretty most plumbers do not stock these ballcocks in their trucks.

Why can’t the client buy parts from me instead of home depot or the hardware? That does not make any sense to me. I can’t buy parts for my home theatre system easily but I still have a home theatre system.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Indie said:


> 1. I think your the one to answer your own question. Their your customers, why are they calling you.
> 2. The only thing I hear you saying is that the main problem with wolverine brass is that the repair parts can be hard to come by. What is any different than most of the rest of the faucets out there, if you stock the repair parts you can fix the faucet.
> How often do you get called to repair a wolverine brass faucet?
> Let me ask another question. Do they have the idea its deception before or after you think it is?
> A suggestion: Buy a trailer to haul that massive ego you have. If you don't like the faucet then don't put them in. Oh, and  off.
> 
> To the rest of the people that decided to get on here just to bash a product, and insult those that would put them(no matter the reason).
> This thread was intended to share an experience with a new product. One that seemed to be a quality product. I was simply looking to receive some feedback from those I have assumed are professionals. But, as always most have proven themselves to be *******s that think their opinion is on level with God. It is no wonder that most don't like plumbers.


 
Awe *** Damn! Someone doesn't like me on the internet. This is a crushing blow....I'll probably never recover from this. :clap:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Richard Hilliar said:


> Dunbar how do you represent it to the client with a Kohler one piece ballcock or the Briggs case ballcock? I am pretty most plumbers do not stock these ballcocks in their trucks.


 
Thanks for reminding me but I put one of those in ($117) for a bank 2 months ago that I forgot to send a bill on. ****!!! I need that money!


The second I see or hear Kohler? I lay it out like a 5 course meal at a 4 star restaurant, bedding the notion that a minimum 2 trip trick is about to be had, and that they will spend more money than they like.

I'm honest...I don't have decieve or manipulate product brands to make money. Treat every customer like they know as much as you or more than you and you'll never go wrong. 

You wouldn't believe the amount of customers that I get that reference google and search content regarding their situation to make sure that they can guide themselves through the transaction...seeing if the plumber is being honest or not.

And who created this dishonesty? Plumbers who don't tell the truth or sell products that don't reveal how impossible it is not to get parts for the bright and shiney turd they just installed.

That's not me...it'll never be me. 

If you've ever been sold something like this thread is about....only to find out that you've been 'had' on the sale long after they are gone....you get pissed. 

This has happened to me in entrusting the person who came to my home, praising something that really just elevated profits and nothing else.

My incoming customers are pissed before they call me most times...knowing they searched painfully at supply houses, big box stores before they throw in the towel in disgust, realizing the last guy did something that prevents the ability to fix your own faucet.



"The ability to fix your own faucet." 

I don't want that bad reputation...


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## user2090

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Awe *** Damn! Someone doesn't like me on the internet. This is a crushing blow....I'll probably never recover from this. :clap:


How sad that you take delight in making enemies. Your home life must be depressing. Clearly you are a successful business man, otherwise your ego might be more in check.

You are making an assumption, and falsely asserting that someone is installing wolverine brass in an attempt to rip a customer off. That was never mentioned or insinuated you horses ***. Other people posted that it would be a rip off, including you. 
When you walk into someones house and tell them that the last plumber only installed that faucet to rip them off, you sir, are lying. Unless you know the guy, and what his intentions were, you are gaining a customer under false pretense.
So I will just laugh at you like I'm sure so many others have.:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::wacko::wacko::wacko::wacko::wacko::wacko::wacko:


How I imagine the phone call from the customer to your shop

Dunbar: Hello this is Dunbar plumbing.
Customer: Yeah, this is John Q. Customer, and I need a plumber to service a faucet I have.
Dunbar: Yeah, I can help you with that. Do you know what brand it is?
Customer: I think its a Wolverine Brass. I can't find the number of the last plumber I used, like his work, but lost his card, so I called a random name in the Phone-book and choose you.
Dunbar: Good thing you called me. Plumbers that put in Wolverine Brass, are just trying to rip you off, by not making it easy to get parts. I am an expert in fixing that problem. Let me put in a lower quality faucet, that an idiot can get parts for at any local hardware.
Customer: Uhhh. Ok. I really liked the last guy, I don't think he was trying to rip me off. Are you sure?
Dunbar: Absolutely. I may not know him, but I gaurntee, that was his intention. Clearly, he would not put those in because he thought they were well built, and a good value. I'll come right over and replace those faucets right away.
Customer: I like the faucet, I just want it fixed. Could you at least attempt to fix it. It has worked well for the last 10 years, the finish is good, it just drips.
Dunbar: I'm sorry, here at Dunbar plumbing, the policy is, "If I don't like it, no matter how well it works, or looks, it has got to go!"
Customer: Well ok, do what you think is right. If your in the yellow pages you must know what your doing.


Damn that felt good, Thanks Dunbar. I really needed that.:yes:


----------



## rex

be nice indie they are the only ones who can call names and belittle others....you should know that by now! none the less good thread.....


----------



## user2090

rex said:


> be nice indie they are the only ones who can call names and belittle others....you should know that by now! none the less good thread.....



Well thank you sir. I have found it to be most refreshing. When I go back and reread the thread it is funny how off track it got, in such a short amount of time. By the way, Love the Avatar.:laughing:


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## TheMaster

Wolverine Brass faucets are sold for one reason and one reason only. To keep the customer in the dark. Delta 1400 series cant be beat.....lifetime warranty and they will honor it with only a phone call from ANYONE. This gives the customer atleast the choice to work on it .....or to order the part and call a plumber to install it if they like. CHOICES.....DONT YOU AS A CUSTOMER LIKE CHOICES??????? Tell every customer they cant buy parts for it or get the warranty honored without finding a plumber who will deal with WOLVERINE and see the response you get over the whole.


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## Redwood

TheMaster said:


> Tell every customer they cant buy parts for it or get the warranty honored without finding a plumber who will deal with WOLVERINE and see the response you get over the whole.


I think that might just kill the sale...:whistling2:


----------



## TheMaster

Redwood said:


> I think that might just kill the sale...:whistling2:


Ya think? Might just kill the whole relationship once they start asking themselves..."Now why would this mofo want to sell me this shiot other than to LOCK me down"


----------



## ILPlumber

rex said:


> be nice indie they are the only ones who can call names and belittle others....you should know that by now! none the less good thread.....


 
Ah rex has made his weekly mod hating post. I'm all warm fuzzy and my week is complete. Thank you rex.

I also appreciate all your other great posts. I don't know what this board would do without your valuable input. Oh yeah, I remember now. The week you were banned the board never missed a beat. :laughing:

I don't know much about wolverine brass. But it seems extremely unhandy not to be able to get repair parts without jumping through hoops.


----------



## user2090

TheMaster said:


> Ya think? Might just kill the whole relationship once they start asking themselves..."Now why would this mofo want to sell me this shiot other than to LOCK me down"


Listen, I am going to respectfully disagree. I agree if I were to tell them the way you make it sound, then yes, they won't buy. However, that is not something I tell them, because that is not why I would put it in. I installed a Delta 440-WF today, and we did not have a conversation about where to buy parts. The man was a retired utilities worker, and told me very clearly, he did not want to do the faucet work. At one time yes, but now that he is old, he is content to let a young man like me do the work.

When I sell something to a person, I attempt to sell the best product that I can find for the value, up to the point where I installed the Wolverine Brass, I have been installing Delta, and will probably continue to do so. But, I will still consider it as an option.

What is it that you guys are not understanding? I never made mention of having the intention of ripping a customer off, that is something that was you all made mention of.

Let me ask, am I wrong for selling and installing Toto toilets? You can't buy the repair parts for them from the local hardware. Yes, you can buy parts, but yet again there not OEM.


----------



## TheMaster

Matt said:


> I don't know much about wolverine brass. But it seems extremely unhandy not to be able to get repair parts without jumping through hoops.


I put wolverine brass in the "odd ball shiot category" Its not a big problem for me to get parts but I just like to stick with products that are coomon for everyday people and you can get a part for it on saturday night at 8:00 if you need it...even if you hafta buy the entire faucet. delta and moen are fairly constant with tub and shower trim from year to year. Delta adopted the multi-choice rough valve and moen has the posi-temp for the everyday homeowner. With those two choices theres no need to look at any other brand. Moen and delta both have lifetime warraties and both honor them for anyone.


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## user2090

TheMaster said:


> Wolverine Brass faucets are sold for one reason and one reason only.


, 

That is your opinion. I am glad your not up here running around after me telling customers that was my intention. If you were here and did tell a customer that, you would be lying, and you know it. Just because that is your take on it, that does not make it correct. 
By the way, most of my customers, like that fact that we install what we consider to be the best.

Bradfordwhite Waterheaters(For now)
Delta Faucets(Also for now)
Toto toilets


----------



## TheMaster

Indie said:


> Listen, I am going to respectfully disagree. I agree if I were to tell them the way you make it sound, then yes, they won't buy. However, that is not something I tell them, because that is not why I would put it in. I installed a Delta 440-WF today, and we did not have a conversation about where to buy parts. The man was a retired utilities worker, and told me very clearly, he did not want to do the faucet work. At one time yes, but now that he is old, he is content to let a young man like me do the work.
> 
> When I sell something to a person, I attempt to sell the best product that I can find for the value, up to the point where I installed the Wolverine Brass, I have been installing Delta, and will probably continue to do so. But, I will still consider it as an option.
> 
> What is it that you guys are not understanding? I never made mention of having the intention of ripping a customer off, that is something that was you all made mention of.
> 
> Let me ask, am I wrong for selling and installing Toto toilets? You can't buy the repair parts for them from the local hardware. Yes, you can buy parts, but yet again there not OEM.


I consider selling a customer a product that he cant get parts for and is NOT any better in place of a faucet that has a better warranty and parts are available off the shelf is not a wise thing to do.......hows that make you feel?
You can buy TOTO oem parts at Lowes because TOTO doesn't make their ballcocks or flappers so yes they are original parts under a different name. Lavelle......put that in yo pipe and strike it up:whistling2:


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## ILPlumber

wolverine brass reminds me of faucetcraft.

"We make a extremely heavy weight faucet (for the sale. "Feel how heavy this is") *that cannot be price shopped anywhere else*" 

That way you guys who need more on the check can upsell a polished ball of lead to make an extra buck.

As an added bonus, the customer will almost be required to call you for a warranty claim. Another extra buck

The days of plumbers being able to hide their material costs are almost over.


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## TheMaster

Matt said:


> wolverine brass reminds me of faucetcraft.
> 
> "We make a extremely heavy weight faucet (for the sale. "Feel how heavy this is") *that cannot be price shopped anywhere else*"
> 
> That way you guys who need more on the check can upsell a polished ball of lead to make an extra buck.
> 
> As an added bonus, the customer will almost be required to call you for a warranty claim. Another extra buck
> 
> The days of plumbers being able to hide their material costs are almost over.


It's a waste of brass IMO. The quality of the brass is more important than its thickness IMO.


----------



## user2090

TheMaster said:


> Its not a big problem for me to get parts


Thank you, finally the truth starts to come out.


I emailed the Wolverine Brass rep last night. He confirmed ANY PLUMBER CAN BUY THE PARTS, AND IT WILL BE COVERED UNDER WARRANTY.


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## Redwood

Indie said:


> Let me ask, am I wrong for selling and installing Toto toilets? You can't buy the repair parts for them from the local hardware. Yes, you can buy parts, but yet again there not OEM.


Toto G-Max Replacement Flapper at Lowes...

Wolverine Cartridge?
Hmmm Not so lucky...

I'll never forget my first encounter...
Cartridge in hand I walk into the best supplier of faucet parts in the state and he looks at me like I have a third eye in the center of my forehead....

This cartridge is not in a single one of his catalogs...
I have no clue who makes this unknown POS...

I say POS because if you can't ID the faucet and get parts for it what good is it?:whistling2:

Fortunately a friend told me with all the trouble I had finding a match that it might be Wolverine Brass...:furious:


----------



## Redwood

Indie said:


> Thank you, finally the truth starts to come out.
> 
> 
> I emailed the Wolverine Brass rep last night. He confirmed ANY PLUMBER CAN BUY THE PARTS, AND IT WILL BE COVERED UNDER WARRANTY.


Yep...
Just as long as he can figure out that it is Wolverine Brass....

Not an easy task when they are not marked and the only people in the know are Wolverine Brass and the plumbers that install their POS product line...:whistling2:


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

I'm feelin the love' like a 2 dollah hookah, I really am.



Today, I took out a EPIC Delta faucet, guy thought it didn't have those common delta cartridges which I found when the handles popped off.

Problem was, the O-rings blew (high pressure I corrected years ago, reworked 5 other Delta 2 handle faucets in the home and a 1700 series Delta T&S) 

but when I removed the trim, even with protection I cut the plastic covering that protects the brass from tarnishing. More a glaze than anything. 

Anyway, this guy already had his mind set to get rid of this EPIC faucet because parts are near non-existent. 

He had me put in a Harden Industries 8" spread 2 handle faucet, waterfall series dating back to 1991. 

I resisted heavily, knowing that faucets that old come with issues and also googled it on my I-phone to see if it was discontinued....sure enough it was.

Given my fees and the fact he got this once $400 faucet at no cost....it got put in today.


There was a line of agitation between him and I that I was creating to let this fellow know...you're going down a road that can become ugly and costly, knowing the faucet is discontinued and parts are hard to come by.

I warned him, almost excessively. 


Why did I write the above? 


Because I understand through history of 'good deals' and 'free' faucets. 

The faucet is beautiful, solid brass. No one knows when that small particle of calcium or a fine grand of sand is going to seat itself between the two planes of ceramic and cause the faucet to then start leaking...and there I am again.

Tearing a faucet down and creating a mile long hunt. The customer is paying a tremendous cost.

*And why does a plumber want to put in these type of faucets that are intentionally designed to follow this ritual?*


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Indie get your Wolverine Brass rep on here. We'll start a thread I promise in 5 hours that will have 1000 views with me part of that barn burning. I don't care if you even start a fake username and make believe you're a WB rep...it's gonna be gewde. :laughing:


----------



## TheMaster

Indie said:


> Thank you, finally the truth starts to come out.
> 
> 
> I emailed the Wolverine Brass rep last night. He confirmed ANY PLUMBER CAN BUY THE PARTS, AND IT WILL BE COVERED UNDER WARRANTY.


 Thats for sure and it's not looking good for the company that goes against the grain in the faucet business.....wolverine brass. I do like some of their products but I will not buy their shiot just so i can be different and difficult.


Redwood said:


> Toto G-Max Replacement Flapper at Lowes...
> 
> Wolverine Cartridge?
> Hmmm Not so lucky...
> 
> I'll never forget my first encounter...
> Cartridge in hand I walk into the best supplier of faucet parts in the state and he looks at me like I have a third eye in the center of my forehead....
> 
> This cartridge is not in a single one of his catalogs...
> I have no clue who makes this unknown POS...
> 
> I say POS because if you can't ID the faucet and get parts for it what good is it?:whistling2:
> 
> Fortunately a friend told me with all the trouble I had finding a match that it might be Wolverine Brass...:furious:


 



Redwood said:


> Yep...
> Just as long as he can figure out that it is Wolverine Brass....
> 
> Not an easy task when they are not marked and the only people in the know are Wolverine Brass and the plumbers that install their POS product line...:whistling2:


The truth shall set you free.....:thumbup:


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## Richard Hilliard

*Wolverine brass*

First the one thing that needs settled is the title of best. Best is very subjective and is based upon an opinion. The second thing that is way off base anyone who sells wolverine brass is dishonest. I would venture to say that a huge majority of people who write in these forums are very trustworthy and honest.

I have a difficult time understanding that the consumers inform you right away that the product is trashy and they cannot find the parts. This information must come from you and hammered into the consumer until they somehow believe that statement. You are kind of lucky that I am not following your company and able to pull the parts out of my truck in a matter of minutes. That would make the parts story untrue. It may be true for you however it is not true for me. 

Out west it appears that Price Pfister is a faucet that many professionals use, here they are throw away faucets. Does this mean they are a piece of junk? No it means that Price Pfister has not marketed well in this area.

I am from Ohio and have lived in a few different places and I hear all the time that people are different. The culture of an area is different however the basic principles are the same. A person in Montana needs a faucet repaired or replaced and how that is different than a person in New York and how it is different than a person that needs that same thing in Iowa.

The difference is in the way a person thinks, presents and represents. The first event that must happen is trust. The trust must be build with rapport and relationship skills. How much an individual knows about their profession has very little to do with trust and building the relationship. It has more to do with how individuals relate to one another. Personally I walk away from people who bash other companies and products to make their own skills and products better. I have too many great things to say about my products and my abilities then to bash others. 

Next is the relationship and understanding the client’s motives and their motivation to move forward with either a repair or replacement. A client that insists that they are always repairing a certain product and I know they are frustrated with this product. It does not make sense to only present another repair of this product. Repair and replacement should be offered to the client and they alone should decide what is best for him or her.
The point of the above is to say that best is subjective and that it is our own point of view that we push into the mind of the client. Instead of bashing a product or company we should concentrate on the items we do well and help guide the client into using you. Wolverine Brass is a solid faucet and there happens to be many solid faucets available to the professional. Tell the true story that you personally do not care for a product and why you think your product is a better fit for the client.


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## Don The Plumber

The only thing I would like to tell Dunbar is this;
Tell that fricken moron on the left side of your page, to sit down, & chill out. Very distracting when trying to read. It's like having a customer who is an "opinionated engineer, looking over your shoulder while working.


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## SewerRatz

I have sold many of these faucets for many years. I only had one call back 5 years after I installed one, I got the part the next day the home owner was very happy with the product since it outlasted the Delta's that used to be in their home. They where not upset with the fact they had to call me for the parts, since the parts where free.

See the thing that blows my mind is the mentality of the guys that say its deceptive to sell a WB faucet since a home owner can not go to the local hardware store and buy the part. There are industries that will not sell a product to the average Joe of the street. You have to show them your license to get the products you wanted. Not with plumbing parts, any Tom, Dick and Harry can go to a hardware store, plumbing supplies and buy everything they need to plumb a whole house with out a plumbing license.

We have let our trade slip away from us part by part job by job. Sewer and drain work used to be a plumber only thing, but plumbers let that fall into the hands of any crack pot that buys drain cleaning equipment. Plumbing used to be a trade where people did not question what and why you charge what you charge since it required a learned skill we had to apprentice for to obtain. Now with PVC and ABS pipe, pex, shark bites, rubber gaskets for the cast iron hub pipe, and such anyone with out any skill can do this. Do not get me wrong we still have to know the code as plumbers, and people that hire us expect that, but they do not look at our trade as a skilled trade anymore.

Back on subject, I sell the WB faucets, and Chicago faucets, T&S faucets not because the parts are hard to get, it because they last and are well built. As someone else pointed out these companies do not reinvent the wheel every few years. My customers have the choice to tell me what brand they want as long as its something I can get for them, I do refuse to install any home owner supplied fixtures.


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## RealLivePlumber

Man, what a bunch of close minded, thick headed people.

Wolverine Brass makes a quality product. They stand behind their warranty. 

Moen, Delta and Kohler have sold out to the big box. All about money, and who cares about quality? They do not. Sell 'em junk so they'll buy another in a couple of years. Hooray **** Depot. All of the above mentioned companies include a junk plastic lav pop up with their faucets. Even in the supply houses, unless you spec metal. Then you get a p.o.s. metal pop up with a plastic stopper. Ever see a WB lav pop up assy? 

Price Fister is ABSOLUTE TRASH JUNK GARBAGE PEICE OF SHIOT. PERIOD (Emphasis added)

Why is so hard to comprehend that Grohe parts are not readily availabe, as well as Kohler. Both are extremely expensive, and the parts proliferation is ridiculous. WB has only one freaking single lever cartridge. Jeez. Yet, Grohe is the best. My as.....


----------



## TheMaster

RealLivePlumber said:


> Man, what a bunch of close minded, thick headed people.
> 
> Wolverine Brass makes a quality product. They stand behind their warranty.
> 
> Moen, Delta and Kohler have sold out to the big box. All about money, and who cares about quality? They do not. Sell 'em junk so they'll buy another in a couple of years. Hooray **** Depot. All of the above mentioned companies include a junk plastic lav pop up with their faucets. Even in the supply houses, unless you spec metal. Then you get a p.o.s. metal pop up with a plastic stopper. Ever see a WB lav pop up assy?
> 
> Price Fister is ABSOLUTE TRASH JUNK GARBAGE PEICE OF SHIOT. PERIOD (Emphasis added)
> 
> Why is so hard to comprehend that Grohe parts are not readily availabe, as well as Kohler. Both are extremely expensive, and the parts proliferation is ridiculous. WB has only one freaking single lever cartridge. Jeez. Yet, Grohe is the best. My as.....


If wolverine Brass is so proud of their faucet then why not PUT THEIR NAME ON IT?

Maybe YOUR supply house sells the plastic pop up with Delta but they dont here unless you ASK for it.

Grohe will warraty their products for life to the original owner and they do honor it even when they shouldn't. Grohe makes a better K-sink faucet than anyone. Kohler faucets are some of the WORST.....a step above price pfister. Delta and Moen ARE the best choices for average people.

Ever see a grohe cartridge compared to a wolverine brass????? How much brass is in a wolverine brass cartridge???:laughing: How about compared to MOEN s/l tub shower cartridges? Or a Delta 13/1400 series..does it have brass in it and STAINLESS STEEL? Compare those to a wolverine and wipe those tears.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

*Count on this*

Next time I encounter a customer with a Wolverine faucet in their home, 


camera goes on and the world sees it. Then you all can criticize all you want...but there will still be an irate customer that felt taken advantage of.


That's where I represent my company and stand above the competition. 


So I guess now you all expect me to "buy up" on cartridges so when I DO encounter WB faucets...I can fix them? 

Not when they refuse to cater to supply and demand to the plumbing supply houses. We know the strategy...it's more than obvious.

I'm still waiting for a Wolverine Brass rep to show up here. I'm not calling bluffs, I want them here along with 10 search engines. LOL! :blink:


----------



## user2090

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I'm still waiting for a Wolverine Brass rep to show up here. I'm not calling bluffs, I want them here along with 10 search engines. LOL! :blink:


I hope when you start the recording, you capture the part where you set the whole thing up. I would love to hear how you present the problem.

Dunbar let me ask a few things (no malice intended, I promise).
1. *Do you hate other product this much?* I understand that this is a thread about Wolverine Brass, but there has to be other products you hate similarly.
2. *Where does this hatred for Wolverine Brass come from?* So far, the only thing I really pick up on, is that you find it inconvenient to make repairs on the faucets. Ok, well I find it difficult to make repairs on things, but I do not hate the product and speak ill about the person who installs it. 
4. *Why is it a bad thing to install products that help insure that only a professional plumber will come out on and make the repair?* I am being sincere with this question, I fail to see why I would want to make it easy for a handy-man or less, to follow after me and do the same work for a discounted rate. Doesn't that hurt the whole industry? As a successful businessman, would you explain this to me?
5. *Do you actually tell the customer that the last plumber was taking advantage of them? *I have read in many books that speaking negative about competition should be avoided. Care to dispute this?

You can pm me, and let me know what you think. As an aspiring business owner I really want to have a better understanding of how I should conduct business. 

I am asking for those who hate Wolverine Brass, to refrain from fact-less assertions. You made your point, you don't like Wolverine Brass. But, so far, the facts have been lacking. If you had to make a case in court, you would not be winning.


----------



## TheMaster

Indie said:


> I hope when you start the recording, you capture the part where you set the whole thing up. I would love to hear how you present the problem.
> 
> Dunbar let me ask a few things (no malice intended, I promise).
> 1. *Do you hate other product this much?* I understand that this is a thread about Wolverine Brass, but there has to be other products you hate similarly.
> 2. *Where does this hatred for Wolverine Brass come from?* So far, the only thing I really pick up on, is that you find it inconvenient to make repairs on the faucets. Ok, well I find it difficult to make repairs on things, but I do not hate the product and speak ill about the person who installs it.
> 4. *Why is it a bad thing to install products that help insure that only a professional plumber will come out on and make the repair?* I am being sincere with this question, I fail to see why I would want to make it easy for a handy-man or less, to follow after me and do the same work for a discounted rate. Doesn't that hurt the whole industry? As a successful businessman, would you explain this to me?
> 5. *Do you actually tell the customer that the last plumber was taking advantage of them? *I have read in many books that speaking negative about competition should be avoided. Care to dispute this?
> 
> You can pm me, and let me know what you think. As an aspiring business owner I really want to have a better understanding of how I should conduct business.
> 
> I am asking for those who hate Wolverine Brass, to refrain from fact-less assertions. You made your point, you don't like Wolverine Brass. But, so far, the facts have been lacking. If you had to make a case in court, you would not be winning.


If we were in court I would have just won...you admit in number 4 above that your just trying to keep others from working on it when you dont need a license to repair a tub faucet. You cutting the owner out of his own picture and alot of other plumbers also on pure purpose. Thank you case closed.

I'ma put wolverine to a test.....i'ma call and tell them I'm a plumber but do not have a plumbing business and see if they will sell me parts or give me parts for a customer that has one of wolverines faucets.


----------



## user2090

TheMaster said:


> If we were in court I would have just won...you admit in number 4 above that your just trying to keep others from working on it when you dont need a license to repair a tub faucet. You cutting the owner out of his own picture and alot of other plumbers also on pure purpose. Thank you case closed.
> 
> I'ma put wolverine to a test.....i'ma call and tell them I'm a plumber but do not have a plumbing business and see if they will sell me parts or give me parts for a customer that has one of wolverines faucets.


Thank God your a plumber and not a lawyer. There is no admission to anything in that question, especially since it was intended to person on the stand. If there was a lawyer asking the question is he incriminating himself, by asking a question.

Ok so let me see if I understand what your going to do. You are going to call up Wolverine Brass and resort to lie's to prove your point, hmmmmmm. You are going to lie to prove a truth, maybe you are a lawyer.

Since your going to call, why not be truthful and ask them this, I have. If I go out on a job with a Wolverine Brass faucet, that I did not install, but is warranted, will you give me(for free) the parts to make the repair. The rep answered yes. Now, because I have not actually been in that circumstance, I have not had a chance to find out the truth. Maybe the rep is lying and I will get burned. Worst case scenario, I install the a replacement cartridge. 

Quit lying any plumber can set up an account and buy parts from them!!!


----------



## TheMaster

Indie said:


> Thank God your a plumber and not a lawyer. There is no admission to anything in that question, especially since it was intended to person on the stand. If there was a lawyer asking the question is he incriminating himself, by asking a question.
> 
> Ok so let me see if I understand what your going to do. You are going to call up Wolverine Brass and resort to lie's to prove your point, hmmmmmm. You are going to lie to prove a truth, maybe you are a lawyer.
> 
> Since your going to call, why not be truthful and ask them this, I have. If I go out on a job with a Wolverine Brass faucet, that I did not install, but is warranted, will you give me(for free) the parts to make the repair. The rep answered yes. Now, because I have not actually been in that circumstance, I have not had a chance to find out the truth. Maybe the rep is lying and I will get burned. Worst case scenario, I install the a replacement cartridge.
> 
> Quit lying any plumber can set up an account and buy parts from them!!!


Sure its admission. Read it again. I sure am going to lie to them. Cops do it all the time...they will lie to get reactions and admissions. Do you think a cop posing as a drug user is lying when they go out to make undercover narcotic buys?? sure it is:laughing: 

look your fighting a losing battle defending wolverine....there are other better options than wolverine and everyone knows it.

You talk about the lawyer incriminating himself.....well sure he can......if he brings up the topic of installing the faucet to insure only a professional plumber can repair it because the manufacturer has the pats on LOCK DOWN and the case is about whats good for the customer...YOU LOSE!!!!!!


----------



## Redwood

TheMaster said:


> I'ma put wolverine to a test.....i'ma call and tell them I'm a plumber but do not have a plumbing business and see if they will sell me parts or give me parts for a customer that has one of wolverines faucets.


Just call up and say you are from Jose's Handyman Services tell them you have a customer that has a leaking Wolverine Brass kitchen sink faucet and you need a cartridge for it....:laughing:

Give them your address....

I bet they mail it out to you!:laughing:

I don't think they wanted any info from me last time I called just that I had a customer that needed a replacement.

They sent it to my house...


----------



## TheMaster

Redwood said:


> Just call up and say you are from Jose's Handyman Services tell them you have a customer that has a leaking Wolverine Brass kitchen sink faucet and you need a cartridge for it....:laughing:
> 
> Give them your address....
> 
> I bet they mail it out to you!:laughing:
> 
> I don't think they wanted any info from me last time I called just that I had a customer that needed a replacement.
> 
> They sent it to my house...


 
The people who make my home alarm system has a tech support number for installers with questions. I was able to buy my alarm through the dealer with CASH because cash talks and bullshiot walks and everyone knows that...especially when you look like me and your face to face and I pull out a big wad of money. I can buy anything I want from freon to whatever is sold out of a store front...I dont care how regulated it is. ANYWAY I was trying to make my alarm system call a pager without any added equipment just the dialer thats build into the alarm panel. I followed the instructions but still no worky.....i call them and act like I'm an installer and I make up a fake businesss name. The guy bit right into it and automatically knew what the trouble was and said that it was left out of the instructions by mistake and walked me through a few keypad strokes to turn the feature on so it would call the pager and report which zones were violated in the event of an alarm. It reports the zones so you can track were the intruder is going in the home based off what zones are being violated. At the end of the call he entered me into their computer along with my business name and I have an installers number now!!!!:thumbup:

I bet i can do the same to wolverine is my point. last time I called it sounded like the lady ran in from the parking lot and then i get box's of stuff I just wanted a quote on show up at my door...with stuff I didn't even want a quote on...and some stuff wasn't in the box but I was charged for it...so I was shorted too:blink: I like their tank bolts and stuff tho.....dont buy their bibb screws unless the seat is big with the faucet your working on...they heads on their bibb screws are huge and hit the seat on some faucets.


----------



## user2090

TheMaster said:


> Sure its admission. Read it again. I sure am going to lie to them. Cops do it all the time...they will lie to get reactions and admissions. Do you think a cop posing as a drug user is lying when they go out to make undercover narcotic buys?? sure it is:laughing:
> 
> look your fighting a losing battle defending wolverine....there are other better options than wolverine and everyone knows it.


Ok, I just went through and reread all my posts on this topic. I do not see anywhere I have made a defense of Wolverine Brass specifically. What I did do repeatedly, and will do yet again is ask question to those that claim to have knowledge on this topic. All I have seen so far is nothing but a bunch of opinion on the matter. The only ones that have come close to giving any information worthwhile is Greenplum and Dunbar. Even then it has been mostly opinion. I am asking for facts.

To sum up this thread

Some like Wolverine Brass faucets and install them.
Other don't like Wolverine Brass, but fail to make a reasonable argument on why they should not be installed. Out of all the words to used to oppose Wolverine Brass, only a few things stand out. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If you are not saying these things then correct me.
1. *A Wolverine Brass faucet can only be repaired(under warranty) by the installing plumber.*
2. *Only a handful of plumbers in a given area can buy from Wolverine Brass.
3. Wolverine Brass replacement cartridges are extremely hard to come by.
4. You prefer to install faucets that anyone can get parts for.
5. The ONLY REASON a plumber would put Wolverine Brass faucet is to keep a customer in the dark.

*


----------



## TheMaster

Indie said:


> Ok, I just went through and reread all my posts on this topic. I do not see anywhere I have made a defense of Wolverine Brass specifically. What I did do repeatedly, and will do yet again is ask question to those that claim to have knowledge on this topic. All I have seen so far is nothing but a bunch of opinion on the matter. The only ones that have come close to giving any information worthwhile is Greenplum and Dunbar. Even then it has been mostly opinion. I am asking for facts.
> 
> To sum up this thread
> 
> Some like Wolverine Brass faucets and install them.
> Other don't like Wolverine Brass, but fail to make a reasonable argument on why they should not be installed. Out of all the words to used to oppose Wolverine Brass, only a few things stand out. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If you are not saying these things then correct me.
> 1. *A Wolverine Brass faucet can only be repaired(under warranty) by the installing plumber.*
> 2. *Only a handful of plumbers in a given area can buy from Wolverine Brass.*
> *3. Wolverine Brass replacement cartridges are extremely hard to come by.*
> *4. You prefer to install faucets that anyone can get parts for.*
> *5. The ONLY REASON a plumber would put Wolverine Brass faucet is to keep a customer in the dark.*


Quit dancing for a minute. I have gave facts. How much brass does a wolverine cartridge contain? Thats what i thought. Its not better its just different. Its not common so that another strike against it....and its only sold to plumbers.....thats the 3rd strike. They make it difficult...and for what...so i cant be price shopped over a few dollars...well its not worth it and the product is not THAT good to start with. The are shiot acting like they are THE SHIOT...big difference and I'm not buying it.

1 and 2 are not true

3 is true but its impossible for a customer to handle it themselves....plenty of faucets are the minority and i feel the same about them also...pretty much JUNK.
4. Is true for me.....homeowners and handymen really dont cost me any real business and infact they create alot of work for me.
5. I cant think of any other reason because its for sure not BETTER. others have admitted that wolverine didn't try to re invent the wheel and I agree its nothing special so why use it.


----------



## GREENPLUM

The only Plumbing Co's that I know who use Wolverine Brass are expensive flat rate ones.

I would like to thank Wolverine Brass for there heavi-weight brass, really adds to my scrap bucket.



Indy go back and look at that cartridge


----------



## user2090

TheMaster said:


> Quit dancing for a minute. I have gave facts. How much brass does a wolverine cartridge contain? Thats what i thought. Its not better its just different. Its not common so that another strike against it....and its only sold to plumbers.....thats the 3rd strike. They make it difficult...and for what...so i cant be price shopped over a few dollars...well its not worth it and the product is not THAT good to start with. The are shiot acting like they are THE SHIOT...big difference and I'm not buying it.
> 
> 1 and 2 are not true
> 
> 3 is true but its impossible for a customer to handle it themselves....plenty of faucets are the minority and i feel the same about them also...pretty much JUNK.
> 4. Is true for me.....homeowners and handymen really dont cost me any real business and infact they create alot of work for me.
> 5. I cant think of any other reason because its for sure not BETTER. others have admitted that wolverine didn't try to re invent the wheel and I agree its nothing special so why use it.


Ok, now were getting somewhere, and I'm not dancing. I appreciate this feedback. Would have saved us a lot of time if that was said earlier on.

So if I understand what your saying. Wolverine Brass is not what you consider to be a quality faucet, due to several factors.
1. * The cartridge is not a high quality cartridge.*
2. * Although they are heavy, the brass they use or the way it made is lesser quality than lets say Delta or even Moen.* This then takes me in the direction of finding out the different ways brass is used in the faucet making process. I can agree with that. I recently had a problem with China brass fittings, so I can see where the argument can be made.

Was that so hard. 

Now, could someone actually share stories of real problems they have had with Wolverine brass faucets. Not problems, due to your opinion of the faucet, but actual real experience that proves they are of lesser quality. 

For example: I dislike Moen faucets, because the cartridge is a PITA to get out. It is a good faucet that works well for a long time, but when it does need repaired, it can give a little trouble. I personally do not like them, and don't install them. That is because I have a lot of experience repairing and replacing them.


----------



## user2090

GREENPLUM said:


> The only Plumbing Co's that I know who use Wolverine Brass are expensive flat rate ones.
> 
> I would like to thank Wolverine Brass for there heavi-weight brass, really adds to my scrap bucket.
> 
> 
> 
> Indy go back and look at that cartridge


Your just as bad as the others. I have looked at the cartridge. What about it makes it inferior? At this time I prefer to install Delta faucets, I am familiar with them, and what it takes to repair them. With that being said, I don't personally like the ceramic they are putting in some of their faucets. I have had several reps explain why the ceramic cartridge is the way to go, but I hesitate.
I am looking for options for my customers. I give them options with many different products. If Wolverine Brass is not a viable one in your opinion, then what is?


----------



## TheMaster

Indie said:


> Ok, now were getting somewhere, and I'm not dancing. I appreciate this feedback. Would have saved us a lot of time if that was said earlier on.
> 
> So if I understand what your saying. Wolverine Brass is not what you consider to be a quality faucet, due to several factors.
> 1. *The cartridge is not a high quality cartridge.*
> 2. *Although they are heavy, the brass they use or the way it made is lesser quality than lets say Delta or even Moen.* This then takes me in the direction of finding out the different ways brass is used in the faucet making process. I can agree with that. I recently had a problem with China brass fittings, so I can see where the argument can be made.
> 
> Was that so hard.
> 
> Now, could someone actually share stories of real problems they have had with Wolverine brass faucets. Not problems, due to your opinion of the faucet, but actual real experience that proves they are of lesser quality.
> 
> For example: I dislike Moen faucets, because the cartridge is a PITA to get out. It is a good faucet that works well for a long time, but when it does need repaired, it can give a little trouble. I personally do not like them, and don't install them. That is because I have a lot of experience repairing and replacing them.


Its nothing about the quality of brass as to why I dont like them. Its the fact they think they are so damn special that they will not sell to ANYONE who owns the thing. Its not superior to Delta or Moen. Moen and Delta have a better warranty. Theres nothing exclusive about a wolverine except that they make their parts hard to get for the general public. As a homeowner myself i think thats SHIOTTY of them.


----------



## TheMaster

Indie said:


> Your just as bad as the others. I have looked at the cartridge. What about it makes it inferior? At this time I prefer to install Delta faucets, I am familiar with them, and what it takes to repair them. With that being said, I don't personally like the ceramic they are putting in some of their faucets. I have had several reps explain why the ceramic cartridge is the way to go, but I hesitate.
> I am looking for options for my customers. I give them options with many different products. If Wolverine Brass is not a viable one in your opinion, then what is?


Its total plastic and there are no other options but total plastic cartridge. junk boss...pure junk.


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## Redwood

Indie said:


> 1. *A Wolverine Brass faucet can only be repaired(under warranty) by the installing plumber.*
> *Nope! Any Plumber can fix them obtaining free parts from WB as long as they can figure out that it is a WB faucet.
> Finding out that it is a WB faucet is difficult as WB markets outside of the "Normal" supply chain and the only one's who can readily identify them are the WB installing plumbers and WB.*
> 
> 2. *Only a handful of plumbers in a given area can buy from Wolverine Brass.
> Nope! Any plumber can choose to be part of the WB sales program.
> 
> 3. Wolverine Brass replacement cartridges are extremely hard to come by.
> It depends on being able to identify the product.
> Not an easy task when you are not a WB installing plumber as they are marketed out of the "normal" supply loop.
> Once Identified it is as simple as calling WB and waiting.
> 
> 4. You prefer to install faucets that anyone can get parts for.
> I prefer to install reliable products that have repair parts readily available and are identifiable.
> I believe that serves the customers interests well.
> I tend to avoid designer faucets as parts availability is a headache.
> Here we are talking about a mainstream faucet design mimicking a designer faucet.
> 
> 5. The ONLY REASON a plumber would put Wolverine Brass faucet is to keep a customer in the dark.
> Yes and to get a leg up over their competition at their customers expense..*


The answers in red are my opinion...
It's not going to change...:whistling2:


----------



## TheMaster

Indie said:


> He can't call the manufacturer and get parts, so why would I tell him that? If I'm not mistaken, only a plumber can buy and install those parts(as I read the paperwork). With a 100 year warranty, seems I won't have to worry for quite a while.


You already know what the problem is......read the first sentence of your post you made above. Now ask yourself is a 100 yr warranty any good if a plumber refuses to order the parts for you. Now ask your yourself if the customer had a moen or a delta with a lifetime warranty....could the customer get the parts sent to him??? Chew on that all you want but its still FAT and it will not go over well if you told a customer that. Thats the facts...along with its not that great of a faucet to start with that all plastic cartridge that they treat as if its a nuclear weapon that cant be had by the person who they actually profited from to start with...THE CUSTOMER THE END USER.


----------



## Redwood

Personally virtually all my objections to WB would go away if they put their name on it...

Or,

If they would enter the regular supply stream where plumbing supply houses would have replacement cartridges in their catalogs...

Till then they are worse than many nondescript faucet manufacturers...

At least I can identify cartridges and stems for:
American Brass
Arrowhead Brass 
Artistic Brass
Block Brass
Bristol
Broadway
Burlington
Cambridge
Dick Brothers
Dornbracht
East River
Franke
Glauber Blove
Goetz
Grand Haven
Grohe
Hajoca
Hansgrohe
Harcraft
Harden Brass
Hudson 
Krowne
KWC	
Mellard
Mott J.L.
Newport Brass
Opella	
Queen City
Rapetti
Reid Watson
Roberts Brass
Ross & Gade
Royal Brass
Schaible
and many others...


----------



## TheMaster

Some two handle designer faucets use the same cartridge or they will interchange.


----------



## user2090

Finally, after so many angry posts we get to the heart of the matter.
The Master, Redwood, and Dunbar. I appreciate that there are other plumbers out there that want to take care of their customers. I don't believe all this back and forth was necessary to get main problem that seems to plague each of you and others so much. If someone would have just articulated those points that TM, and Redwood did recently this could have gone by the wayside much earlier.

I give thanks to all who have put it out there and posted their opinion on this thread. I now have what I was looking for the whole time, real pertinent information about Wolverine Brass faucets. I believe now that a clear path is before me and I will be able to make an informed and consciences decision for my customers. The whole idea behind this was to get facts to back up assertions.

As for the warranty and anything else that pertains to Wolverine Brass, I will now have ammo to work the rep over and see how he reacts. If he can't come up with reasonable answers I will continue on with what I have been doing the whole time, and install Delta faucets.

Now would someone mind starting a thread, that could actually cover what makes a faucet good, and why you want to install them. I still want to consider having a secondary line to Delta.

Thank you very much.
Damn plumbers anyway. :w00t:


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## Phat Cat

Maybe all their faucets are not easily identified, however, they only offer a few lines. So once you come across one, I would think you would be able to remember it. 

I'm fairly certain the last WB faucet I saw had Wolverine Brass stamped on it. Not a WB - the entire name. I'll check Monday and take a pic.

Red - Did I read correctly? Did you say you were able to get a part shipped by pretending? If so, couldn't a HO make up a company name and get the cartridge?


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## Redwood

PlumbCrazy said:


> Red - Did I read correctly? Did you say you were able to get a part shipped by pretending? If so, couldn't a HO make up a company name and get the cartridge?


No I did not get the part by pretending anything...

I simply called and said I had a customer with a faucet that needed one.
Since I live an hour from the shop and only go there once a week...
(The more I stay away the better I like it)
I had the part shipped to me at my home address...

There were no complicated questions or, interrogations...

I bet if TM called and said he was Jose Handyman Services he would get one without any problems...:whistling2:


----------



## TheMaster

Redwood said:


> No I did not get the part by pretending anything...
> 
> I simply called and said I had a customer with a faucet that needed one.
> Since I live an hour from the shop and only go there once a week...
> (The more I stay away the better I like it)
> I had the part shipped to me at my home address...
> 
> There were no complicated questions or, interrogations...
> 
> I bet if TM called and said he was Jose Handyman Services he would get one without any problems...:whistling2:


If a women answers I can get the cartridge without any trouble and prolly come right out and tell them I'm a howeowner. I can talk women into doin much worse than shipping me a cartridge:jester::laughing:


----------



## Phat Cat

TheMaster said:


> If a women answers I can get the cartridge without any trouble and prolly come right out and tell them I'm a howeowner. I can talk women into doin much worse than shipping me a cartridge:jester::laughing:


Okay, let me get this straight. A clever HO (one who is smart enough to take apart their faucet and is prepared to fix it) could more than likely obtain their cartridge on their own?

I'm not sure that is what you are implying, but it certainly reads that way.

If so, that blows a huge hole in the "HO can't get their own warranty part" argument. Granted it may take a little more 'work' BUT it can be done. :yes:


----------



## TheMaster

PlumbCrazy said:


> Okay, let me get this straight. A clever HO (one who is smart enough to take apart their faucet and is prepared to fix it) could more than likely obtain their cartridge on their own?
> 
> I'm not sure that is what you are implying, but it certainly reads that way.
> 
> If so, that blows a huge hole in the "HO can't get their own warranty part" argument. Granted it may take a little more 'work' BUT it can be done. :yes:


I outright telling you if the right guy calls they will ship that cartridge. That doesn't blow holes in the fact that wolverine is making life difficult and the average guy isn't gonna go through that and they shouldn't need to. Wolverine is not that special so F them.


----------



## Phat Cat

Let's be fair then - it's not just WB that can be a pain to deal with.

TOTO - OEM parts PITA
AMERICAN STANDARD FAUCETS - PITA
GROHE - PITA
KOHLER - OEM parts PITA

DELTA - though they are warranted, still a PITA to have your K.S. out of commission while you wait for them to ship you the part

DELTA / MOEN - Both PITA for making HO cheap versions of the same faucet sold to the supply house. The average HO just looks at style and finish and assumes they are the same.

DELTA - For chuckles I went to Delta's website as a HO would and followed the prompts to find a kitchen faucet which lead me to http://www.deltafaucet.com/perfectfaucet/kitchen_replace.html  Thanks Delta for directing a potential customer to Home Depot. A look of a high end faucet for $250.00 less than the other one.

ISE - Great company right? You sell your customer on the InHome Warranty, yet unless you specifically sign on for their 'Service your own work program' you do not get to replace something under warranty - you are screwed. We installed a Insta-Hot, it needed to be replaced under warranty. Even though we installed it, ISE gave the warranty call to a competitor! We went to the customers home, diagnosed the problem, contacted ISE, gave them the install date, customer's name etc. and they gave the job to our competitor! We are listed as a ProCircle Member, but none of that meant a damn thing.


----------



## TheMaster

PlumbCrazy said:


> Let's be fair then - it's not just WB that can be a pain to deal with.
> 
> TOTO - OEM parts PITA
> AMERICAN STANDARD FAUCETS - PITA
> GROHE - PITA
> KOHLER - OEM parts PITA
> 
> DELTA - though they are warranted, still a PITA to have your K.S. out of commission while you wait for them to ship you the part
> 
> DELTA / MOEN - Both PITA for making HO cheap versions of the same faucet sold to the supply house. The average HO just looks at style and finish and assumes they are the same.
> 
> DELTA - For chuckles I went to Delta's website as a HO would and followed the prompts to find a kitchen faucet which lead me to http://www.deltafaucet.com/perfectfaucet/kitchen_replace.html  Thanks Delta for directing a potential customer to Home Depot. A look of a high end faucet for $250.00 less than the other one.
> 
> ISE - Great company right? You sell your customer on the InHome Warranty, yet unless you specifically sign on for their 'Service your own work program' you do not get to replace something under warranty - you are screwed. We installed a Insta-Hot, it needed to be replaced under warranty. Even though we installed it, ISE gave the warranty call to a competitor! We went to the customers home, diagnosed the problem, contacted ISE, gave them the install date, customer's name etc. and they gave the job to our competitor! We are listed as a ProCircle Member, but none of that meant a damn thing.




If i had a product and Home Depot would sell it for me.....I would love it,wouldn't you? If I had to make it cheaper by adding a plastic pop-up then thats what i would do. You can take anything you want back to home depot if you dont like it and Delta gives a lifetime warranty that they will honor. Atleast the customer has a 1-800 number they can call and they WILL get parts if they are willing to wait. FOR FREE


----------



## Phat Cat

TheMaster said:


> If i had a product and Home Depot would sell it for me.....I would love it,wouldn't you? If I had to make it cheaper by adding a plastic pop-up then thats what i would do. You can take anything you want back to home depot if you dont like it and Delta gives a lifetime warranty that they will honor. Atleast the customer has a 1-800 number they can call and they WILL get parts if they are willing to wait. FOR FREE


And as a professional plumber and business owner you believe this is good for the plumbing industry how?

You seem to be a real advocate for the customer. How noble of you. Why not leave the Professional Forum and invest more time at the DIY Forum where you can really do some good? or better yet, you could put on an orange apron and teach HO's how to install it.

But, then again you have a vested interest in Delta don't you? If Delta fell out of favor, you stand to lose a lot with that Delta collection of yours. Old inventory gathering dust . . . :whistling2:

I respect the HO and I ALSO RESPECT THE PROFESSION! 

If you are not part of the solution, you are the problem


----------



## 3KP

WB kitchen faucets have WB stamped on the handle. The single handle shower/tub valves have WB stamped on the trim plate. I can't remeber where it's on the lavatory faucets. The reason I like the WB is that there is only 4 different cartridges 53571,53572,85116,and 85107. don't have little springs and rubbers to fight with to get back in a sink faucet (have fat fingers) Don't have to go buy a special removal tool to get the cartride out. 1/2 the time when a HO take a Delta shower valve apart they break off the 3 flimsy tabs that hold the valve together. I know the newer ones are not like that. But think about how many times you been called out to fix that problem...

Kohler, Moen, even now Delta has Ceramic cartiages. Kohler cartiage look the same to a WB ...:whistling2:

I was like Indie at first wondering about these faucets. Best thing to do Buy one and put it in your house or a close friend and see watch it see how it does. I offer my customers Delta or WB I show them the 2 faucets on the truck (they look the same) I let them choose. I tell them right off the bat part for WB will have to be ordered through a plumber that carries WB the parts can't be bought at a store anywhere... They still pick the WB 7 out of 10 times.


----------



## TheMaster

PlumbCrazy said:


> And as a professional plumber and business owner you believe this is good for the plumbing industry how?
> 
> You seem to be a real advocate for the customer. How noble of you. Why not leave the Professional Forum and invest more time at the DIY Forum where you can really do some good? or better yet, you could put on an orange apron and teach HO's how to install it.
> 
> But, then again you have a vested interest in Delta don't you? If Delta fell out of favor, you stand to lose a lot with that Delta collection of yours. Old inventory gathering dust . . . :whistling2:
> 
> I respect the HO and I ALSO RESPECT THE PROFESSION!
> 
> If you are not part of the solution, you are the problem


I'm for ME and to be for me I hafta be for the homeowner...they pay my bills. Delta sells itself,I dont worry about sombody bad talking it on a forum when it comes to me being able to sell it. Gimmie a break:whistling2:

I have done the diy forums before and its entertaining. I dont see a big prolem with it.


----------



## Redwood

PlumbCrazy said:


> Let's be fair then - it's not just WB that can be a pain to deal with.
> 
> TOTO - OEM parts PITA
> Actually it's more like which of the 12 dealers in a 25 mile radius should I go to...:whistling2:
> And as a rule the stuff works so i'm usually not looking for parts...
> 
> AMERICAN STANDARD FAUCETS - PITA
> Yea I'll give you that one!
> I only install it customer supplied...
> Half the time the stuff is defective out of the box...
> The old stuff is pretty good though and parts are available all over...
> I wouldn't hesitate to rebuild an old Re-Nu those things are great...
> 
> GROHE - PITA
> I've got a couple of local suppliers...
> No problem there...
> 
> KOHLER - OEM parts PITA
> Yep, I install them customer supplied only...
> IMHO one step better than Am Std...
> 
> DELTA - though they are warranted, still a PITA to have your K.S. out of commission while you wait for them to ship you the part
> No problem here, I've got the parts on my truck in most cases...
> I replace inventory when the part arrives...
> 
> DELTA / MOEN - Both PITA for making HO cheap versions of the same faucet sold to the supply house. The average HO just looks at style and finish and assumes they are the same.
> No Problem!
> The guarantee is the same and the replacement parts is the same...
> 
> DELTA - For chuckles I went to Delta's website as a HO would and followed the prompts to find a kitchen faucet which lead me to http://www.deltafaucet.com/perfectfaucet/kitchen_replace.html  Thanks Delta for directing a potential customer to Home Depot. A look of a high end faucet for $250.00 less than the other one.
> Their website shouldn't direct the customer to where they can purchase the product?
> I'm confused...:blink:
> 
> ISE - Great company right? You sell your customer on the InHome Warranty, yet unless you specifically sign on for their 'Service your own work program' you do not get to replace something under warranty - you are screwed. We installed a Insta-Hot, it needed to be replaced under warranty. Even though we installed it, ISE gave the warranty call to a competitor! We went to the customers home, diagnosed the problem, contacted ISE, gave them the install date, customer's name etc. and they gave the job to our competitor! We are listed as a ProCircle Member, but none of that meant a damn thing.
> Sounds like you should be signed up for the "Service Your Own Work Program...




I'm missing what you are saying...


----------



## Richard Hilliard

*wolferine brass*

How many plumbers solder hose bibs to cooper pipe? It does not matter if it is a frost proof, sillcock, or boiler drain it is soldered so the average home owner cannot replace the product. Here chrome plated brass p-traps are soldered into copper waste arms so the plumber is called to replace that p-trap. If we did it to make it easier for the homeowner a trap adapter/desanco would be used the same with schedule 40 p-traps. Using the excuse that the home owner cannot work on or get parts is a bogus excuse if you do the other things above.

There are very few faucet manufacturers that use brass for the cartridges mainly due to the lead content. That makes plastic cartridges a moot point and not relevant excuse. A picture of a trashy faucet really has no meaning other than the water quality or cleaning substance has destroyed the finish. It also means the home owner allowed that fixture to get into that shape. I can show you old Kohlers,Grohe’s that are trashy due to the home owners negligence. I went to a 2 mil condo the other day that had a white plastic piece of trash Grohe kitchen faucet that the plastic was cracking. Most faucet manufacturers do make builders models or affordable faucets.

I see the wolverine brass rep once a month and I have his personal cell number. Two weeks ago I had a problem and called the rep. He answered his phone and took my order after we were completed he said as soon as the funeral was attending he would place the order. This rep sends me a postcard informing me the day he will be in town and then he follows up with a phone call to verify the visit. I see him and talk to him more than I do my warehouse rep that is 5 minutes from our shop. Wolverine Brass faucets have a wb on the handle for easy identification.

Get this I just quoted a job that my competition quoted with pricing from the plumbing warehouse down the street. I was 76% higher than he was and that means it is well below my costs of the same materials from this plumbing supply. My cost of materials came to 2680.00 and I charged a cheap labor of 80 dollars per hour for the install, this fellows bid was under 1000.00. It is a complete tear out of two kitchen sinks, filter,1hp Insinkerator brushed nickel ,dual handle brushed nickel instant hot and chiller, filter h2300, relocate waste and water for both sinks and a new ice maker line that moved from a garage location to a finished room. Two days one man job and the job is an hour travel both ways. With wolverine brass I know what the plumber down the street is paying for the product and it is the same as me.

I do not purchase products because I can take it back after I have installed the product when it is a piece of junk or defective. That is an insane defense of a product. I am not happy that a piece is missing or is a defective piece when I do buy from a home center or my customer having to pay me for additional work for this type of merchandise.


----------



## Phat Cat

Red - Your reality is not necessarily the reality of everyone.

I agree, Toto puts out a good product. However, their builder grade is not so great. You are fortunate "it's more like which of the 12 dealers in a 25 mile radius should I go to". The only two supply houses that sell Toto do not stock OEM parts or any Toto parts for that matter. We have a kick-a$$ specialty supplier that supplies most repair parts - but not Toto OEM. Had a problem with a tank lever that they said would work with the Toto. It did for a few days and ended up as a callback. 1st trip diagnosis, 2nd trip to install new tank lever, 3rd trip to see why lever was not functioning, had to order OEM Tank handle, 4th trip install OEM tank lever. It worked but cost us a lot.

Grohe & American Standard faucets - We don't supply or push these faucets. NO ONE here stocks them nor do they carry any repair parts.

Delta - Yes, we can take one off our truck - though why should we if we didn't install the original faucet? It's a PITA to call it in, get the new cartridge, and track it to make sure it arrives for basically no compensation.
My point about the wait referred to the HO trying to make a warranty claim.
Most would rather pay for a new cartridge and have their plumbing back in order immediately. Therefore, the warranty is not so great and Delta knows it.

Delta / Moen - When you suggest everything should be geared toward the HO and not the professional - I see a conflict of interest there. If Delta and Moen expect the professional to be loyal to them, they should stop trying to deceive our customers by luring them away with cheap products installed for next to nothing at the big box stores. The only reason Delta & Moen can get away with this is because they are coasting on a past reputation of plumbers selling their products exclusively. Sorry Red, but I believe Delta and Moen sold the plumber (and the supply house for that matter) down the river for cheap.

ISE - For the most part their products are exceptional and a warranty claim is few and far between (1 in the last 6 years). We are not part of their warranty program because we will not accept the rates they pay for warranty service, which is below our cost. So we take our chances.

WB identification - sounds like the identification problem has been addressed. Maybe years ago it was not so easy, but it sounds like they have fixed it.

The biggest complaint that keeps coming up is that the HO cannot get it by themselves. HO can call original plumber (and I cannot see any reason why a reasonable plumbing co. owner would not order the cartridge for them), if original plumber is no longer in business HO could call WB and track down a local plumber to obtain parts. There are options.

As for HO getting warranty parts - 95% of the HO's don't even know that Delta offers a warranty. We get a lot of calls to replace a leaking faucet. 

In the end, I really think you are creating an issue that is non-existent. Delta probably won't share the numbers, but I would be interested in seeing how many cartridges are sold, how many are given out under warranty to a plumber, and how many are shipped direct to the HO requesting it on his own without any plumber diagnosing and explaining the warranty.

You guys are focusing on a relatively small percentage of HOs.


----------



## TheMaster

Richard Hilliar said:


> How many plumbers solder hose bibs to cooper pipe? It does not matter if it is a frost proof, sillcock, or boiler drain it is soldered so the average home owner cannot replace the product. Here chrome plated brass p-traps are soldered into copper waste arms so the plumber is called to replace that p-trap. If we did it to make it easier for the homeowner a trap adapter/desanco would be used the same with schedule 40 p-traps. Using the excuse that the home owner cannot work on or get parts is a bogus excuse if you do the other things above.
> 
> There are very few faucet manufacturers that use brass for the cartridges mainly due to the lead content. That makes plastic cartridges a moot point and not relevant excuse.


P-traps and hose bibbs are a poor example. They are off the shelf items and are sold all over town and I dont give a lifetime warranty on them. If the manufacturer of the hose faucet or trap gives a lifetime warranty then the customer is more than free to call them and have the manufacturer send free parts. Cant do that with wolverine brass can you?

If brass is the problem then how about stainless steel? There is NO metal in a wolverine cartridge....but damn if they wont make a 5 lb showerhead:laughing: Too much metal in one part and ZERO in the other. Delta uses stainless steel in their cartridges. The stems for two handle faucets that I USE have a brass stem and a stainless bottom.:whistling2:

We have a Delta factory rep that lives here in the city.....just a phone call away. He will even make a house call with you.


----------



## TheMaster

PlumbCrazy said:


> Red - Your reality is not necessarily the reality of everyone.
> 
> I agree, Toto puts out a good product. However, their builder grade is not so great. You are fortunate "it's more like which of the 12 dealers in a 25 mile radius should I go to". The only two supply houses that sell Toto do not stock OEM parts or any Toto parts for that matter. We have a kick-a$$ specialty supplier that supplies most repair parts - but not Toto OEM. Had a problem with a tank lever that they said would work with the Toto. It did for a few days and ended up as a callback. 1st trip diagnosis, 2nd trip to install new tank lever, 3rd trip to see why lever was not functioning, had to order OEM Tank handle, 4th trip install OEM tank lever. It worked but cost us a lot.
> 
> Grohe & American Standard faucets - We don't supply or push these faucets. NO ONE here stocks them nor do they carry any repair parts.
> 
> Delta - Yes, we can take one off our truck - though why should we if we didn't install the original faucet? It's a PITA to call it in, get the new cartridge, and track it to make sure it arrives for basically no compensation.
> My point about the wait referred to the HO trying to make a warranty claim.
> Most would rather pay for a new cartridge and have their plumbing back in order immediately. Therefore, the warranty is not so great and Delta knows it.
> 
> Delta / Moen - When you suggest everything should be geared toward the HO and not the professional - I see a conflict of interest there. If Delta and Moen expect the professional to be loyal to them, they should stop trying to deceive our customers by luring them away with cheap products installed for next to nothing at the big box stores. The only reason Delta & Moen can get away with this is because they are coasting on a past reputation of plumbers selling their products exclusively. Sorry Red, but I believe Delta and Moen sold the plumber (and the supply house for that matter) down the river for cheap.
> 
> ISE - For the most part their products are exceptional and a warranty claim is few and far between (1 in the last 6 years). We are not part of their warranty program because we will not accept the rates they pay for warranty service, which is below our cost. So we take our chances.
> 
> WB identification - sounds like the identification problem has been addressed. Maybe years ago it was not so easy, but it sounds like they have fixed it.
> 
> The biggest complaint that keeps coming up is that the HO cannot get it by themselves. HO can call original plumber (and I cannot see any reason why a reasonable plumbing co. owner would not order the cartridge for them), if original plumber is no longer in business HO could call WB and track down a local plumber to obtain parts. There are options.
> 
> As for HO getting warranty parts - 95% of the HO's don't even know that Delta offers a warranty. We get a lot of calls to replace a leaking faucet.
> 
> In the end, I really think you are creating an issue that is non-existent. Delta probably won't share the numbers, but I would be interested in seeing how many cartridges are sold, how many are given out under warranty to a plumber, and how many are shipped direct to the HO requesting it on his own without any plumber diagnosing and explaining the warranty.
> 
> You guys are focusing on a relatively small percentage of HOs.


The TOTO carueso or whateva is a great toilet and its the builders line. It uses everyday common toilet rebuilt parts. Thank you:laughing: 

Delta only will warranty the faucet to the original owner.....and if that owner calls and orders parts they will be sent free. If I installed the faucet I will supply the free part and my Delta rep will relace my stock and usually with 4 or 5 of them...FOR FREE. If I have a defective faucet and complain about it I will get a couple for free to make up for my labor......and believe me it dont happen much. Rheem rep will do the same for me. Thanks GUYS for the great service...Delta and Rheem.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

*I've all but given up on Toto Toilets*

1. Too expensive
2. P.O.S. Fill Valves 
3. Flappers are not lasting long enough, with not a hint of chlorine tablets in the tank.
4. People complain of skidding inside the bowl...bowl looks like a trough.

Damn near every toto toilet I've installed, I had to replace the fill valves and the flappers in short time spans....which that just kills the profit margin since I felt obligated 'upon my recommendation' that there's something obviously wrong.


That's reality. I had to work for free to keep those customers happy. That's total BS on the reliability factor. New 400A's helped...but you don't make money on callbacks.


----------



## Redwood

Agreeing to Disagree is so boring...










PC I really cannot argue with your flawed sense of reality....



> :blinkelta - Yes, we can take one off our truck - though why should we if we didn't install the original faucet? It's a PITA to call it in, get the new cartridge, and track it to make sure it arrives for basically no compensation.
> My point about the wait referred to the HO trying to make a warranty claim.
> *Most would rather pay for a new cartridge and have their plumbing back in order immediately. Therefore, the warranty is not so great *and Delta knows it.:blink:


And this is different from WB how?

A plumber that is not part of the WB stocking program will not have the part on the truck, and it will not be available from any supply house, hardware store, or, home center.

This put us right back at the basic point...



> 5. The ONLY REASON a plumber would put Wolverine Brass faucet is to keep a customer in the dark.
> *Yes and to get a leg up over their competition at their customers expense..*


Now as for Delta Parts...
I carry them on my truck!
It is good business sense to carry the common replacement parts for the #1 selling faucet on the market...
They are commonly available at every supply house, hardware store and home center that I know of...
Apparently these places have good business sense and see the wisdom of stocking replacement parts for the #1 brand of faucet...:whistling2:
If someone in the business does not see the wisdom of doing this I'm sure they have bigger problems and will go the way of the dinosaurs becoming part of the conversion to oil process...

I will offer the customer instant gratification and continue to do so on Delta products...

Unfortunately the company I work for does not participate in the WB stocking program getting involved with out of the mainstream marketing approach so I cannot offer instant gratification to the poor customer that has gotten stuck unknowingly with a WB product in their home...

If you'll excuse me I have to go deliver some of the Amway stuff I'm selling...:laughing:


----------



## TheMaster

Most homeowners do not worry about a warranty because usually its more trouble than its worth.......Which warranty would you rather have as a homeowner Delta or a wolverine warranty plumbcrazy? I have told customers that have a warranty but I did not install it to call DELTA after I leave and give them the part number I sell you thats listed on your itemized invoice and DELTA will give you a cartridge and I can use it in another bath if one of those goes bad or save it as a spare. Customers love me.

Next time you have a call about a toilet needing repair ask what brand it is. If they say toto ask them where the handle is located either on the side or the front. Call TOTO with the part numbers and tell them you have a couple toilets that you installed that need parts and give them the part numbers. They will send you the handles and then you can make ONE TRIP. You should have a toto distributor that sells to the SUPPLY HOUSE...thats who you need to call really and have them mail u the parts or drop them off to you. I call the distributor when I have a problem...not the supply house or the factory. I get taken care of and then some.


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## TheMaster

Click on this link and look at how this plumber is selling his WOLVERINE BRASS FAUCETS.......notice the caption to the left of the picture.....boy isn't that the truth since the factory will not sell you any parts or honor the warranty to the homeowner. AMAZING

http://www.americanplumbingservices...jcatalog&view=show&cid=1&Itemid=0&layout=blog

WHO SAID WOLVERINE BRASS CANT BE PRICE SHOPPED...THANKS INTERNET.......http://www.americanplumbingservices.com/specials/


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## Redwood

Where exactly is that WB mark that tells me who made it? :whistling2:


----------



## 3KP

*Here is your Stamp*

I hope I was able to up load this.


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## TheMaster

Here is your wolverine cartridge that cant be purchased but only through wolverine...yeah right.....page 21 check it out. http://www.alfanoplumbingparts.com/pdf/SingleLeverCartridgesPtoZ.pdf

So much for you guys having somthing exclusive that just anyone cant work on. I figured parts were available.....money is a powerful thing.


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## user2090

TheMaster said:


> Click on this link and look at how this plumber is selling his WOLVERINE BRASS FAUCETS.......notice the caption to the left of the picture.....boy isn't that the truth since the factory will not sell you any parts or honor the warranty to the homeowner. AMAZING
> 
> http://www.americanplumbingservices...jcatalog&view=show&cid=1&Itemid=0&layout=blog
> 
> WHO SAID WOLVERINE BRASS CANT BE PRICE SHOPPED...THANKS INTERNET.......http://www.americanplumbingservices.com/specials/


Did you find the part where they say they are Hourly not flat rate, could bring up a whole new(old) argument. There are also a few spelling errors on the page, but over all not bad. Thanks for the link.:laughing:


----------



## Redwood

Alfano is hardly a local supply house...:laughing:

So you still don't have instant gratification unless you call in...

The WB installing plumber that now in hindsight you are thinking gouged the hell out of your wallet...:whistling2:

At least here it seems as though the companies I know of that are installing them seem to have a floating flat rate... (How big is your wallet):laughing:

And a higher than usual incidence of consumer complaints to the state department of consumer protection...:whistling2:


----------



## TheMaster

Indie said:


> Did you find the part where they say they are Hourly not flat rate, could bring up a whole new(old) argument. There are also a few spelling errors on the page, but over all not bad. Thanks for the link.:laughing:


 
Well sure I did but thats no reflection on me or how I charge. I dont miss much indie if the topic appeals to me.


----------



## Turd Herder

*wolverine brass*

we have been a wolverine brass supplier and installer for several years. we like the above average quality, service, and competitive pricing. We have very few callbacks for their product. When we first started with WB, i asked them to send us some extra cartridges to have in case we needed to replace one. They sent is an assortment( i think there are only 3 or 4 cartridges for all of their current line) andthey sent them to us for free. I have never had a problem with their cartridges. the callbacks we have had on them were usually due to improper tech installation or a part that was lost (maybe by us, i dont know) and not in the box. But again very few times does that happen. Other than those callbacks, I cannot recall any customer complaints about them. 
Regardless, even if i read all of the (negative) messages in this thread, I would not change our line because we have had such an excellent experience with WB. 
Another advantage that wolverine brass has over anyone else is that they DO only sell to plumbers so our prices are not being compared to 'home depot' fixtures.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Where's the Wolverine Brass Representative I'm requesting? 


I'm not kidding. I'm dead serious. Calling me will make a great youtube video.


I want it in print. I want to show how people are upset even before I arrive, knowing no one can work on that faucet and the customer has exhausted many avenues to find the parts....and basically throws in the towel.


The majority of plumbers DO NOT install Wolverine Brass faucets...why?


Think...it'll come naturally to you. 


And to top the ice cream off beautifully in this thread:



The majority of those who use this method to make money off product?


All running under fictitious usernames that don't correlate to their plumbing company.


Just go ahead...keep hating me. :laughing:


----------



## user2090

Dunbar,

I think your in serious need of medication. Why would any rep. come on here knowing that all your going to do is use opinion and circumstantial evidence to berate them. Geez, sounds like a good time to me.

As a concerned citizen I think you should seek help. If you don't like Wolverine Brass, then don't put them in. This particular subject has been beaten to death, and this latest post adds absolutely nothing to it. You along with everyone else has had a chance to give their opinion. We know where you stand, please move on, its unhealthy to obsess. As a matter of fact, I just reread what you wrote, and it is less coherent than the first time I read it.

Seriously though, its kinda getting creepy, Dunbar. Why don't you join us in the chat room some night, then you can really lay it out. I value usable information, but only usable information.


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## Mongrel

Dear Brethren, let us now take a brief break from this thread, and have a moment of silence to salute those brave plumbers who are standing between the poor down trodden masses of home owners and those evil basterds at Wolverine Brass who have dared to manufacture a product in the USA and sell it only to plumbers, who then use it as a club to beat baby seals to death before installing it in poor ole' Mr. Smith's kitchen.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Thank you...you may now be seated...


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## Redwood

OMG I had no idea they were beating baby seals too...
That's awful....:laughing:


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Indie said:


> Dunbar,
> 
> I think your in serious need of medication. Why would any rep. come on here knowing that all your going to do is use opinion and circumstantial evidence to berate them. Geez, sounds like a good time to me.
> 
> As a concerned citizen I think you should seek help. If you don't like Wolverine Brass, then don't put them in. This particular subject has been beaten to death, and this latest post adds absolutely nothing to it. You along with everyone else has had a chance to give their opinion. We know where you stand, please move on, its unhealthy to obsess. As a matter of fact, I just reread what you wrote, and it is less coherent than the first time I read it.
> 
> Seriously though, its kinda getting creepy, Dunbar. Why don't you join us in the chat room some night, then you can really lay it out. I value usable information, but only usable information.


 

Obsess? 


I'm the one who worked saturday and sunday while you played fort in the plumbing zone all weekend...


and then you're at my heels with a response not even 15 minutes old.


Who needs medication? I do...but I'm still sharp as the jagged edge of a knife that takes no sense of pain going in, only when it pulls out and does the most destruction. 


LOL! Feed me those pills LMAO!!! 


_



As a concerned citizen I think you should seek help. If you don't like Wolverine Brass, then don't put them in.

Click to expand...

_ 
I believe I mentioned a looooooooooooong time ago, I take these out and install common product. 


Now get me a F-ing rep on this site to discuss these matters. I'm not asking for much. 

Let's put this to rest without you throwing up surrender flags. :surrender::surrender::surrender::surrender::surrender::surrender::w00t:


----------



## 3KP

*get yourself parts and stop complaining!*

A simple solution call WB get some cartiages 1 each of the 4 they have put them on your truck. They will back their warranty with any plumber! 

Honestly think about it! Say a Delta 1900 series T/S valve how many of your supply houses going to carry one of those cartiages? You're not going to find that at box store either. When you call Delta or whom ever faucet it is. I'm always asked is this the original owner? Is there any lime build up on it. If you answer No to the 1st one or yes to the 2nd one WARRANTY VOIDED!!!!!! Then you have to purchase the part from Delta or whom ever faucet it is and wait for it to arrive. Are you going to put that part in for free? NO your not. 

Another thought on this Warranty issue. Yes Delta, Moen, Kohler and whom ever else even WB gives a life time or 100 year warranty on a faucet. Here is my point is your company going to give a life time or 100 year warranty on a faucet?? I think NOT We give x amount of years on labor. So if the part goes bad on our faucets we install we honor the faucet warranty on the parts (FREE) but we will charge a service fee after are labor warranty period is up. 

If you have to bash a faucet to make a sale instead of getting the parts to fix it so be it. That is your way of doing business. NOT mine I will do what ever it take to fix it if it's fix able. Sound like someone is being just plain lazy.

Sorry Indie eveyone has an opinion like everyone has a  it's a shame they can't be more open minded...


----------



## Mongrel

3KP said:


> A simple solution call WB get some cartiages 1 each of the 4 they have put them on your truck. They will back their warranty with any plumber!
> 
> Honestly think about it! Say a Delta 1900 series T/S valve how many of your supply houses going to carry one of those cartiages? You're not going to find that at box store either. When you call Delta or whom ever faucet it is. I'm always asked is this the original owner? Is there any lime build up on it. If you answer No to the 1st one or yes to the 2nd one WARRANTY VOIDED!!!!!! Then you have to purchase the part from Delta or whom ever faucet it is and wait for it to arrive. Are you going to put that part in for free? NO your not.
> 
> Another thought on this Warranty issue. Yes Delta, Moen, Kohler and whom ever else even WB gives a life time or 100 year warranty on a faucet. Here is my point is your company going to give a life time or 100 year warranty on a faucet?? I think NOT We give x amount of years on labor. So if the part goes bad on our faucets we install we honor the faucet warranty on the parts (FREE) but we will charge a service fee after are labor warranty period is up.
> 
> If you have to bash a faucet to make a sale instead of getting the parts to fix it so be it. That is your way of doing business. NOT mine I will do what ever it take to fix it if it's fix able. Sound like someone is being just plain lazy.
> 
> Sorry Indie eveyone has an opinion like everyone has a  it's a shame they can't be more open minded...


Game...set...match...

Nothin' left to see here folks...move along...move along...


----------



## user2090

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Now get me a F-ing rep on this site to discuss these matters. I'm not asking for much.
> 
> Let's put this to rest without you throwing up surrender flags. :surrender::surrender::surrender::surrender::surrender::surrender::w00t:


First of all, I'm not your ***** so I will get you nothing, if you want a Wolverine rep, on here go get them yourself.

What the hell is it you want to discuss with them. Most of your post are incoherent ramblings about stuff that has already been solved. 3KP, just presented you with solutions as have others. You just fail to accept them.

What is it that you think can be said that is going to be make such an impact, that the rest of the world is going to bow down and worship you.

You worked both Saturday and Sunday, so, what do you want a cookie?
How about helping the economy and hire another plumber, so you don't have to work so much, and then we can play fort together.

I say we take a vote, you have to be the most arrogant, pompous a$$ on the Plumbing Zone bar none. The sad thing is, most can see how crazy you seem to be.


----------



## Redwood

I can envision this thread being closed in the near future...
The moderators arriving to decimate it into a shadow of it's former self...
:laughing::whistling2::laughing::whistling2:


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

​Indie you love me and you know it. You're just pissed about that unamerican thread about a month ago that you had no idea I was going to post the opposite of your intention.


This is the helmet area. It's not that bad I promise. All I need is a rep on here and I've fulfilled my obligation, just like BP serving oil to the ocean. :whistling2:​


----------



## U&I Plumber

*wow.....*

Been away working a bit too much lately again...

This discussion seems a bit hot, I love how we plumbers are so right in our opinions.

I ran into a WB t/s valve from the 70s a month back, nice valve, a variation of the Moen push/pull system. Ultimately it was a tad fragile with the plastic tit on the drum, I carry more orings on my rig than is generally needed and still did not have the right ones, replaced it.

First one I have seen in these parts, 18 years.


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## ILPlumber

I'm curious, what does getting a WB rep on the PZ bring to fruition?

I think we have all said our peace on this. Where's the next dead horse? I'm ready to ride.:laughing:


----------



## Redwood

Matt said:


> Where's the next dead horse? I'm ready to ride.:laughing:


Here ya go! :laughing:


----------



## A Good Plumber

Redwood.

I think we all could have done without that picture.


----------



## Phat Cat

Matt said:


> I'm curious, what does getting a WB rep on the PZ bring to fruition?
> 
> I think we have all said our peace on this. Where's the next dead horse? I'm ready to ride.:laughing:


Oh it isn't dead until a Mod officially closes the thread. Even then it's not dead . . . Some unsuspecting newbie will innocently ask about WB in a new thread and then we can all beat the hell out of the horse you hope to ride.

A Rep come on PZ? Why would they do that? To appease three or four plumbers who don't like their program? :laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## ILPlumber

I'm not closing it. Things have to get WAAAY outta control before I shut one down. Meh.......


----------



## rex

all i got


----------



## Redwood

This thread could have done without 13 pages of agreeing to disagree...:laughing:

Thats what it all boils down to...

None of us are changing our minds over it...:no:


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Matt said:


> I'm curious, what does getting a WB rep on the PZ bring to fruition?
> 
> I think we have all said our peace on this. Where's the next dead horse? I'm ready to ride.:laughing:


 

It proves beyond reasonable doubt that trickery is involved to gain revenue by deception. 

My opinion is no higher regarded on this site than anyone elses, and the back and forth isn't getting anywhere.

Get the mouthpiece of this company on here and the owner of this site will benefit. I've got plenty to type about.

I don't like deceptive work practices. I'm constantly "cleaning up" behind plumbers that pigeon hole customers for financial gain. 

I'm not playing the game, that's why I stand outside the equation and not participate. I shouldn't have to 'buy in'.

For everyone's information: 


I worked for a plumber in Cincinnati Ohio that we had to sell these faucets and traps, valves and what not. 

We pushed those faucets because the margin was considerably higher. I had firsthand experience with these faucets, installing them.

We was told, "Do not sell anything but these faucets, only install (other well known brands) after you've exhausted all attempts.


And I was carrying around that fancy color gloss book of all those neat faucets, or bringing the box in with the fine looking foam that the HEAVY faucet rested in.

When a customer eventually gets that answer over the phone, IF they are able to even identify the faucet, only to find out "We only sell to Plumbers" ....

That's a kick to the face. That's insulting. Especially when it's not laid out initially to the customer. I have great problem with that. 

People/Customers/Property Owners should not be subjected to narrowing of product reliability or be on a massive plumber hunt for that one/two/three plumbers in their area that chose to be part of a program that entitles the installer to have privilege to supply and demand at their choosing, and at the mercy of the one who took that bait.


I for one won't "Buy" their product to cover that game plan. Why I can't buy these repair parts at supply houses are the VERY reason my voice keeps getting louder on the internet because I'm going to make sure it's heard. 



I've got over 300 1/4 master B&K Mueller A.S. frostproof sillcocks in my area. The supplier (home depot) stopped supporting these products nationwide.

The design flaw came with the handle and the internals of the ceramic housing "allowing" stress fractures of the ceramic components by not building a permanent guide inside the channel to keep the cartridge from stressing.

B&K has it right now...they fixed the design and it works, but HD took an ass pounding on that product with failures due to idiots soldering the bibbs in without pulling the cartridges, people turning past off, bad handles.

Every single faucet that people call me and tell me "That faucet you installed is leaking, and I can't find parts for it" PROVES I put that customer in a bad way, meaning I sold something by my preference and their willingness to accept and trust my expertise.

I trusted B&K Mueller Industries, even though they was selling to HD. They are popular in the plumbing industry.

I eat the labor/materials on those callbacks because I'm determined to make it right.


Now tell me who gets F99KED like a housecat if I can't honor those callbacks.

Figure it out people...I already did.


----------



## Phat Cat

Glad you didn't go to law school Dunbar, you would have surely failed the bar exam.

I don't see where anyone has proven deception. Just because some have used WB for the sole purpose of deceiving does not mean the majority do. Everything you say is based on your perception dealing with your clients.

There is also a segment of the overall general population who whine that they cannot get ahead because they are victims of oppression and resent anyone who has attained success through hard work. Tens of thousands (or maybe hundreds of thousands) feel this way. Their feelings on the matter don't make it true no matter how loudly they protest.

You can scream it from the rooftops, but that does not make it true. For a fact I know of honest plumbers in my area who sell WB and give back to the community. They are not being deceptive, they believe in the product and stocking a few cartridges is no big deal.


----------



## SewerRatz

As I said before I sell these faucets, have not had any issues with them. I do tell the customer about the warranty and that if they need parts all they need to do is call me and I can have the parts shipped right to them. Or I can come out and bring the parts with me and make the repair for a service call and labor, but the parts will always be free. I also make sure I write down on the invoice what brand and model faucet I had installed so this way if they ever call any other plumber for what ever reason they can tell the plumber what brand and model the faucet is. 

Not once I ever felt like I was deceiving anyone.... Oh and yes I have a fake screen name but hey look at my signature, it has my real name and my company's website. So I am making these comments with out hiding behind anything.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

PlumbCrazy said:


> Glad you didn't go to law school Dunbar, you would have surely failed the bar exam.
> 
> I don't see where anyone has proven deception. Just because some have used WB for the sole purpose of deceiving does not mean the majority do. Everything you say is based on your perception dealing with your clients.
> 
> There is also a segment of the overall general population who whine that they cannot get ahead because they are victims of oppression and resent anyone who has attained success through hard work. Tens of thousands (or maybe hundreds of thousands) feel this way. Their feelings on the matter don't make it true no matter how loudly they protest.
> 
> You can scream it from the rooftops, but that does not make it true. For a fact I know of honest plumbers in my area who sell WB and give back to the community. They are not being deceptive, they believe in the product and stocking a few cartridges is no big deal.


 
Do you really expect me to believe anything you say, knowing you're a team player for this chirade?

If my opinion is so moot, why is everyone trying to change it.



What was your opinion of these products before you got sucked into the design...just a few months ago?



Wasn't you bashing flat rate just less than 18 months ago before you actually converted? 


Answer why customers come to me, not the installers of these WB products and want me to remove them upon my mere suggestion of how LIMITED parts are for these faucets.

Plumbers have a bad enough reputation let alone putting the screws by product choice into the mix to just turn that screw even harder.

As I said 10 months ago. I stopped defending the bad will of others in my trade when I see so many victims come to me by incorrect workmanship and intentional deception by work practice.

And here lately, all I'm doing is removing venues of advertising and the phone is ringing off the hook.

Time to start a thread. LOL! OMGWTFLMFAOBBQ!


----------



## 3KP

DUNBAR:
Purchase a few WB faucet parts and put them on your truck. Do you carry Delta/Moen/Kohler parts on your truck? 

I understand you don't like these faucets that's fine and dandy. But here is the complaint I hear from your whinny self. 

That a customer can't find the parts.. But they are calling you about it. Here is a clue buy some and help your customer out make you look like a hero to them. But since you really need to make that faucet sale so be it. 
A good honest company would try to fix the one they have to help save the customer $.

soak on that one for a few....

I notice you mention doing plumbing in Indiana (maybe you should get licensed in this state first..... acording to IPLA there is no DUNBAR here if that is your real name?


----------



## Phat Cat

> DUNBAR PLUMBING said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you really expect me to believe anything you say, knowing you're a team player for this chirade?
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm, team player? I think not. The majority of faucets we sell happen to be Delta and we will offer WB as well. What lead me to look into WB is Delta offering inferior products through the big box stores. HO's don't know the difference and I believe they are being deceived into installing what amounts to disposable faucets IMHO.
> 
> Kinda funny that you don't believe anything I say, yet you ask me a question?
> 
> As for your opinion, you are certainly entitled to it as well as the rest of us. However, when you present your opinion as fact, it's bad for the industry as a whole to have misinformation out there. FACT - Plumbing cos. sell WB for many different reasons and deception is not ALWAYS the reason as you seem to insist that it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What was your opinion of these products before you got sucked into the design...just a few months ago?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Overall we believed that it was a quality product, but had not come across too many with our customers. The few that we did come across we considered it a PITA because we were ignorant as to the process of obtaining parts. Once we found out how easy it was to obtain parts, we did not have any objection to them. Before even considering offering them to our customers I asked members of PZ what their experience was with them. I received a lot of PM's and you would be surprised at how many on PZ install them on a regular basis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't you bashing flat rate just less than 18 months ago before you actually converted?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OMG - 18 mos. ago was like a lifetime ago. Unlike you, I am open minded, seek advice, listen, research etc. because I know that I don't know it all. I know that we can always improve, learn, grow, and do better. I'm not that set in my ways. Everyday I learn. If bashing was done, it was done out of ignorance based on limited experience with one flat rate co. that was abusing the system.
> 
> Look at the Check Your Ego Thread Again (APRIL 2009) - I very clearly stated that Flat Rate can be implemented and be fair to the customer.
> In that same thread I mentioned a lot of things I have learned as a result of being a PZ Member. Are we supposed to stay the same forever? Realizing things aren't always as we believe them to be is a sign of maturity in my book.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Answer why customers come to me, not the installers of these WB products and want me to remove them upon my mere suggestion of how LIMITED parts are for these faucets.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Better yet, why not show up to the job and in your fully stocked truck pull out a WB cartridge and just make the repair? You have an ax to grind and your ego won't let you will it? Wouldn't installing a FREE cartridge be cheaper than replacing the faucet? How is this serving your customer well?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I said 10 months ago. I stopped defending the bad will of others in my trade when I see so many victims come to me by incorrect workmanship and intentional deception by work practice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No doubt about it, there are many in the trade who have earned the disrespect and shame that is rampant in the plumbing industry. There is greed in every industry as well. However, I will keep defending the trade as noble. A few should not be permitted to ruin it for the rest of us. We are all judged by our own customers and at the end of the day that is what matters. I refuse to be painted into a corner by someone who really does not know my ethics or intentions.
> 
> You don't like them, you won't install them, and you won't repair them. I've heard you.
> 
> FACT - others believe as you do and others don't believe as you do.
Click to expand...


----------



## Protech

One point that I'd like to bring up is that just because they can't get the WB parts at big box, doesn't mean that the HO can't get the parts. There are many plumbing companies that will sell parts. There are several in my neck of the woods. They will also order anything you want. Your whole argument Dunbar, is based of off the false assumption that the HO is "locked in" with the installing plumber. Fact is, they aren't. They can by the parts and fix it themselves. They just can't get them at the big orange.


----------



## Protech

You go girl! :thumbup:



PlumbCrazy said:


> Hmmm, team player? I think not. The majority of faucets we sell happen to be Delta and we will offer WB as well. What lead me to look into WB is Delta offering inferior products through the big box stores. HO's don't know the difference and I believe they are being deceived into installing what amounts to disposable faucets IMHO.
> 
> Kinda funny that you don't believe anything I say, yet you ask me a question?
> 
> As for your opinion, you are certainly entitled to it as well as the rest of us. However, when you present your opinion as fact, it's bad for the industry as a whole to have misinformation out there. FACT - Plumbing cos. sell WB for many different reasons and deception is not ALWAYS the reason as you seem to insist that it is.
> 
> 
> 
> Overall we believed that it was a quality product, but had not come across too many with our customers. The few that we did come across we considered it a PITA because we were ignorant as to the process of obtaining parts. Once we found out how easy it was to obtain parts, we did not have any objection to them. Before even considering offering them to our customers I asked members of PZ what their experience was with them. I received a lot of PM's and you would be surprised at how many on PZ install them on a regular basis.
> 
> 
> 
> OMG - 18 mos. ago was like a lifetime ago. Unlike you, I am open minded, seek advice, listen, research etc. because I know that I don't know it all. I know that we can always improve, learn, grow, and do better. I'm not that set in my ways. Everyday I learn. If bashing was done, it was done out of ignorance based on limited experience with one flat rate co. that was abusing the system.
> 
> Look at the Check Your Ego Thread Again (APRIL 2009) - I very clearly stated that Flat Rate can be implemented and be fair to the customer.
> In that same thread I mentioned a lot of things I have learned as a result of being a PZ Member. Are we supposed to stay the same forever? Realizing things aren't always as we believe them to be is a sign of maturity in my book.
> 
> 
> 
> Better yet, why not show up to the job and in your fully stocked truck pull out a WB cartridge and just make the repair? You have an ax to grind and your ego won't let you will it? Wouldn't installing a FREE cartridge be cheaper than replacing the faucet? How is this serving your customer well?
> 
> 
> 
> No doubt about it, there are many in the trade who have earned the disrespect and shame that is rampant in the plumbing industry. There is greed in every industry as well. However, I will keep defending the trade as noble. A few should not be permitted to ruin it for the rest of us. We are all judged by our own customers and at the end of the day that is what matters. I refuse to be painted into a corner by someone who really does not know my ethics or intentions.
> 
> You don't like them, you won't install them, and you won't repair them. I've heard you.
> 
> FACT - others believe as you do and others don't believe as you do.
Click to expand...


----------



## ckoch407

PlumbCrazy said:


> Better yet, why not show up to the job and in your fully stocked truck pull out a WB cartridge and just make the repair? You have an ax to grind and your ego won't let you will it? Wouldn't installing a FREE cartridge be cheaper than replacing the faucet? How is this serving your customer well?
> 
> 
> 
> Love that.^^^ That is the point of WB as I understand it. I stock Premier and not WB so for the record I am not a brand biased drone. (I'd push glacier turd bay if they did what WB or Premier does). But the way I understand it is that's one of our few lines of defense against the box stores hostile takeover of the trades. They sell to us only and offer a 100 year warranty on their faucets. Now if it fails are they calling a professional to honor the warranty or sending the HO to home Sh(& Hole to cut us out of the picture with a throw away? If theres something wrong with that put an orange HD turban on and stone me to death with intolerance.
Click to expand...


----------



## Turd Herder

If it makes any difference, we give a five year warranty on all faucets we supply and install. they are all wolverine brass, other than customer supplied or some sort of special order. It has not happenned yet, but if i had a customer call me to replace a cartridge, I would happily do it for free so that I could replace their cartridge, and say "thanks for calling us out, is there anything else you would like me to look at?" . Not only would I have given the customer a higher level of service, but I have also possible given myself an opportunity to find more work.

BTW why do we need a WB rep on this site? what question would the rep be able to answer that is not being answered here?


----------



## TheMaster

SewerRatz said:


> As I said before I sell these faucets, have not had any issues with them. I do tell the customer about the warranty and that if they need parts all they need to do is call me and I can have the parts shipped right to them. Or I can come out and bring the parts with me and make the repair for a service call and labor, but the parts will always be free. I also make sure I write down on the invoice what brand and model faucet I had installed so this way if they ever call any other plumber for what ever reason they can tell the plumber what brand and model the faucet is.
> 
> Not once I ever felt like I was deceiving anyone.... Oh and yes I have a fake screen name but hey look at my signature, it has my real name and my company's website. So I am making these comments with out hiding behind anything.





3KP said:


> DUNBAR:
> Purchase a few WB faucet parts and put them on your truck. Do you carry Delta/Moen/Kohler parts on your truck?
> 
> I understand you don't like these faucets that's fine and dandy. But here is the complaint I hear from your whinny self.
> 
> That a customer can't find the parts.. But they are calling you about it. Here is a clue buy some and help your customer out make you look like a hero to them. But since you really need to make that faucet sale so be it.
> A good honest company would try to fix the one they have to help save the customer $.
> 
> soak on that one for a few....
> 
> I notice you mention doing plumbing in Indiana (maybe you should get licensed in this state first..... acording to IPLA there is no DUNBAR here if that is your real name?





ckoch407 said:


> PlumbCrazy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Love that.^^^ That is the point of WB as I understand it. I stock Premier and not WB so for the record I am not a brand biased drone. (I'd push glacier turd bay if they did what WB or Premier does). But the way I understand it is that's one of our few lines of defense against the box stores hostile takeover of the trades. They sell to us only and offer a 100 year warranty on their faucets. Now if it fails are they calling a professional to honor the warranty or sending the HO to home Sh(& Hole to cut us out of the picture with a throw away? If theres something wrong with that put an orange HD turban on and stone me to death with intolerance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turd Herder said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it makes any difference, we give a five year warranty on all faucets we supply and install. they are all wolverine brass, other than customer supplied or some sort of special order. It has not happenned yet, but if i had a customer call me to replace a cartridge, I would happily do it for free so that I could replace their cartridge, and say "thanks for calling us out, is there anything else you would like me to look at?" . Not only would I have given the customer a higher level of service, but I have also possible given myself an opportunity to find more work.
> 
> BTW why do we need a WB rep on this site? what question would the rep be able to answer that is not being answered here?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All you guys listed above and including PLUMBCRAZY.........get you camera out and show me all these WOLVERINE faucets that you stock....PLEASE take a picture of the WOLVERINE repair parts you stock also........Can you put yur money where your mouth is and post me a few pics....or are you all talk?
Click to expand...


----------



## TheMaster

Take a few pics of a wolverine single lever kitchen faucet replacement DIVERTER in your stock parts. I'm sure I'll wait a while on these pics......if you sell it you should have repair parts at the ready and these are common parts I'm asking about...nothing special.


----------



## ckoch407

TheMaster said:


> ckoch407 said:
> 
> 
> 
> All you guys listed above and including PLUMBCRAZY.........get you camera out and show me all these WOLVERINE faucets that you stock....PLEASE take a picture of the WOLVERINE repair parts you stock also........Can you put yur money where your mouth is and post me a few pics....*or are you all talk*?
> 
> 
> 
> Like you? :laughing:
Click to expand...


----------



## TheMaster

ckoch407 said:


> Like you? :laughing:


I've posted MANY pics of my Delta stock.....I'm betting these wolverine brass cheerleaders cant cough up a REAL pic of THEIR stocked parts and faucets:laughing: 

They will make off comment posts like yours and avoid the issue.....My money is where my mouth is and others can testify to that or I can post a few hundred pics to settle it:laughing:


----------



## Mongrel

WOW! 

I think I finally get it!

Ready?

PZ....

*The PLAYGROUND ZONE!*




signal...

*NOISE...*

:yes:


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL

> TheMaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ckoch407 said:
> 
> 
> 
> All you guys listed above and including PLUMBCRAZY.........get you camera out and show me all these WOLVERINE faucets that you stock....PLEASE take a picture of the WOLVERINE repair parts you stock also........Can you put yur money where your mouth is and post me a few pics....or are you all talk?
> 
> 
> 
> OK here's some photos ... and I have been using product from W-Brass since I started my apprenticeship in 1955. And I still use it and believe me when I say. There has never been a problem with the product, the warranty or getting parts. Qranted over the years they had some gems
> like the ball & cam kitchen faucet. But then look at the old bibbs, the single lavatory, the double kitchen w/soapdish out the wall. My god I still repair those today. In an old city not all houses have been remodeled.
> 
> The only problem I have with wolverine is it lasts too long and some of the real old stuff you can no longer get parts for. Like the wash machine fill valves, the old L-Bolt ballcock [no more plungers -- just leathers and washers]
> 
> And when my customers call they want me to bring the parts and fix the damn thing -- they sure do not want free parts from the manufacturer.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Airgap




----------



## TheMaster

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> OK here's some photos ... and I have been using product from W-Brass since I started my apprenticeship in 1955. And I still use it and believe me when I say. There has never been a problem with the product, the warranty or getting parts. Qranted over the years they had some gems
> like the ball & cam kitchen faucet. But then look at the old bibbs, the single lavatory, the double kitchen w/soapdish out the wall. My god I still repair those today. In an old city not all houses have been remodeled.
> 
> The only problem I have with wolverine is it lasts too long and some of the real old stuff you can no longer get parts for. Like the wash machine fill valves, the old L-Bolt ballcock [no more plungers -- just leathers and washers]
> 
> And when my customers call they want me to bring the parts and fix the damn thing -- they sure do not want free parts from the manufacturer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry mr. Bill but what picture should I look at to see the FAUCETS and the FAUCET repair parts....?????? I wanna see some roman tub valves,handshowers,Kitchen sink faucets,lavatory faucets widespread....not box's of traps,ballcocks and basket strainers.
> 
> Show me somthing you have instock faucet wise that i could install in a million dollar house...you cant because wolverine doesn't make anything nice.....their high-end stuff LOOKS like P.P. garbage. Go to the wolverine website and look for yourself...download the PDF. It's ugly:laughing:
> 
> By the way...I never said wolverine brass didn't make SOME good stuff....because they do....but their house line of faucets leave alot to be desired. Their Bibb screw heads are too F'in big......what idiot designed it?
Click to expand...


----------



## TheMaster

That little black and orange P.O.S. plastic ballcock Wolverine brass came out with to TRY and compete with fluidmaster...How good are those? I ripped on out lastweek and told the owner that...."YOU cant get parts for these and I refuse to buy into being different ...just to be different. Fluidmaster is better so thats what I use....the mother of this design"

I'm still waiting to see some pics of these wolverine faucets that some are saying they stock and stock the parts for.


----------



## Mongrel

*this just in...*

...a flanking move has been detected detected in the Wolverine Conflict and the "unavailable parts" front line stand has collapsed under a surge of logic and reason..casualities appear to be high...

over to you Jane....

Weather over most of the P-ZONE will be.....


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL

TheMaster said:


> That little black and orange P.O.S. plastic ballcock Wolverine brass came out with to TRY and compete with fluidmaster...How good are those? I ripped on out lastweek and told the owner that...."YOU cant get parts for these and I refuse to buy into being different ...just to be different. Fluidmaster is better so thats what I use....the mother of this design"





TheMaster said:


> I'm still waiting to see some pics of these wolverine faucets that some are saying they stock and stock the parts for.




TM --- so you do use WB that's how you know the 10-24 screws have big [stupid engineered heads] As to the plastic ballcock no-way does that get installed by me. However I have had a lot of F/M crack off where the shank goes through the tank. Mostly from Kohler though. [pesonally I think they were installing with a air gun set at too much torque] When I do use F/M it has to be a ProB. I have seen too much damage to go any other way. Most ballcocks replaced are with WB 50568 and a float ball. As to faucets I have no problem with the Tub & Shower good valves no problems have check stops, good quality trim. 4" centersets single lever we use all the time excellant pop-ups no junk. A great replacement faucet not even a choice to get plastic junk. Use the two handel laundry tub & bar sink faucets -- no problems. The old cement tray faucets best on the market. But there are a couple here if I need one. As to two handle residential wide spread faucets I don't use those I just don't like the looks, neither does my wife and I rely on her judgement when it comes to what women want.

But I certainly can't bash Wolverine like this post has.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Plumber Bill, 


Those people at WB owe you an all expense paid vacation for 2 to any country or island of your choice,


because that's exactly what you bought that company with owning that much inventory by that company.


Tell me though,


With WB being such a product that is solid brass, and new EPA regulations forcing the "BIG" companies to comply and resort to all plastic bodies where it comes in contact with potable water,


How is WB going to conform and meet these guidelines, knowing all others have to comply to fulfill this specification? 

I don't think anyone is above that regulation.

Please explain in detail how these faucets will remain in this design without cost increase or side stepping this new provisional code.


----------



## TheMaster

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> TM --- so you do use WB that's how you know the 10-24 screws have big [stupid engineered heads] As to the plastic ballcock no-way does that get installed by me. However I have had a lot of F/M crack off where the shank goes through the tank. Mostly from Kohler though. [pesonally I think they were installing with a air gun set at too much torque] When I do use F/M it has to be a ProB. I have seen too much damage to go any other way. Most ballcocks replaced are with WB 50568 and a float ball. As to faucets I have no problem with the Tub & Shower good valves no problems have check stops, good quality trim. 4" centersets single lever we use all the time excellant pop-ups no junk. A great replacement faucet not even a choice to get plastic junk. Use the two handel laundry tub & bar sink faucets -- no problems. The old cement tray faucets best on the market. But there are a couple here if I need one. As to two handle residential wide spread faucets I don't use those I just don't like the looks, neither does my wife and I rely on her judgement when it comes to what women want.
> 
> But I certainly can't bash Wolverine like this post has.


I dont like companies acting exclusive when they dont offer a much better product. I dont buy into their wanting me to think I have somthing special because they will only sell to plumbers.....i've been in repair long enough to realize that its nothing special but its a pain in the azz to deal with unless there is alot of wolverine brass installed in your area. Theres not here. There are plumbers who use wolverine products but not wolverines faucets here. 

Its not just wolverine faucets I feel like this about...its many others as Redwood pointed out in an earlier post.

I have my gripes about Wolverine but I have gripes about everyone including Delta and grohe. No one manufacturer of faucets has it PERFECT as they can make it.


----------



## Mongrel

we have another update in the war against Wolverine Brass....

tick.tick.tick.tick .tick.tick.tick.tick.tick.tick .tick.tick.tick .tick.tick.tick.tick.tick.tick.tick.tick.tick.tick.tick.tick 

It seems the EPA has just been alerted to the health menace created by Wolverine Brass products against innocent women and children...and...yes...even men...

A concerned citizen plumber phoned Washington just today in an attempt to save the masses of uninformed and unprotected homeowners across this great nation of ours from the potential aggravation and financial devastation caused by the debilitating affects of American Made Brass contained in the products made by this renegade manufacturer. Word on the street is that this concerned citizen has been offered a position at the highest levels of the Obama Administration so that he can continue his efforts to expose those rabidly loyal Wolverine Brass installers and their mother company-Wolverine Brass U.S.A. "If I can save just one homeowner, this will all have been worth it!" said the so-far unnamed plumber as he was whisked away in a sleek black government limo to an as yet undisclosed location.

We here at WTPZ salute this young man and his gallant efforts to save America one faucet at a time!

In a related story, one of these "Wolverines" as they have become to be known, has had the audacity to actually provide pictures of a van full to the brim with Wolverine contraband that he claims to own and operate. "Plumber Bill"-as he calls himself (note: we are awaiting confirmation if this is indeed his real name...) claims he 'uses' these items in an attempt to serve the common folk of his 'territory' (one wonders if there might be more to the use of this terminology...) by repairing their faucets instead of replacing them with the GOVERNMENT APPROVED and Chinese\Mexican manufactured faucets available at local home centers. 

At the time of this report, we have been informed that Government Hall Monitors have been dispatched to the location the pictures have been uploaded from to question 'Plumber Bill' further about how he came to have all these assault faucets and parts in his possession.

Stand by as we continue to monitor this situation...

We now return you to your regularly scheduled whining...


----------



## user2090

Plumber Bill,

I can' thank you enough for those pics. Its seems you have taken all the air out of those who are arguing against Wolverine Brass. You being a well respected and well thought of professional, have just put a colossal smack down on. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.



Mongrel,

Keep it up. That is some of the funniest stuff I have read on here in months. When I see you have posted, I know the funny is coming.



Dunbar,

As per an email I received, the Wolverine Brass rep(that won't come on), actually had the audacity to address that issue if it would come up. The issue about E.P.A. has been addressed by Wolverine Brass. Here is what Bob, sent me.

Sent: Sun 6/06/10 7:35 PM
_Hi, one more thought on faucets: if anyone asks you about California's new law about reducing lead in drinking water faucets, WB is out front again. We have lined most of our faucets, since the 70's, with copper lines. Now we are only using low lead brass in any faucet, just to make sure we are in compliance. We have no intention of selling plastic faucets, ever.
Thanks,
Bob_
So let me ask, what do you think. Bob, actually sent that after my question about faucet warranty. I swear the man must be psychic.


----------



## Plumber Jim

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Plumber Bill,
> 
> 
> Those people at WB owe you an all expense paid vacation for 2 to any country or island of your choice,
> 
> 
> because that's exactly what you bought that company with owning that much inventory by that company.
> 
> 
> Tell me though,
> 
> 
> With WB being such a product that is solid brass, and new EPA regulations forcing the "BIG" companies to comply and resort to all plastic bodies where it comes in contact with potable water,
> 
> 
> How is WB going to conform and meet these guidelines, knowing all others have to comply to fulfill this specification?
> 
> I don't think anyone is above that regulation.
> 
> Please explain in detail how these faucets will remain in this design without cost increase or side stepping this new provisional code.


You can still use Solid brass products and meet the requirements of the new regulation. Just has to have a lower lead content. It will make the brass harder. I think the Chicago rep was saying it will just wear out the dies at the factory faster.


----------



## TheMaster

Indie said:


> Plumber Bill,
> 
> I can' thank you enough for those pics. Its seems you have taken all the air out of those who are arguing against Wolverine Brass. You being a well respected and well thought of professional, have just put a colossal smack down on. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> Mongrel,
> 
> Keep it up. That is some of the funniest stuff I have read on here in months. When I see you have posted, I know the funny is coming.


What does posting up some wolverine traps and some basket stariners have to do with STOCKING FAUCETS AND KEEPING PARTS TO REPAIR THEM ON_HAND?????

Yeah real funny and OFF TOPIC...like you want this thread to go because NONE OF YOU THAT TALK THE TALK ACTUALLY WALK THE WALK.

I have yet to see FAUCETS and repair parts for those FAUCETS from wolverine and I doubt i ever will because no of you guys have any to speak of.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

*I give up!*

*The WB rep and the bear say no!*







​


----------



## Mongrel

Ok...sorry...I'll turn the 'funny' off now...

I'll give it to ya' straight TM, but I'm not sure it will do any good.

Ready?

Why is it that the two biggest braggards on this forum who continually lecture everyone else about how they are God's gift to plumbing (and apparently God's gift to women on at least one occasion...) and how NOTHING every keeps them from their appointed rounds or duty to their fellow man, have used 16 pages of a thread crying and peeing their pants about ONE faucet manufacturer and the plumbers who install their products? That's what I'd like to know.

You want it on topic?

You want it straight, no chaser or stupid smiley faces?

You want to go man to man?

Well, there you go.

Stop the histrionics and the sanctimonious pontificating about the poor little homeowners and the big bad plumbers who take advantage of them and move on to something more fitting of a 'professional' forum. Oh, and while yer at it-stop busting Plumber Bill's ballz over some asinine request to "see parts". You want to see Wolverine parts? Go take a tour of their plant.

Surely the "best of the best" can handle a little old WB faucet once in awhile...

Mongrel out....


----------



## TheMaster

Mongrel said:


> Ok...sorry...I'll turn the 'funny' off now...
> 
> I'll give it to ya' straight TM, but I'm not sure it will do any good.
> 
> Ready?
> 
> Why is it that the two biggest braggards on this forum who continually lecture everyone else about how they are God's gift to plumbing (and apparently God's gift to women on at least one occasion...) and how NOTHING every keeps them from their appointed rounds or duty to their fellow man, have used 16 pages of a thread crying and peeing their pants about ONE faucet manufacturer and the plumbers who install their products? That's what I'd like to know.
> 
> You want it on topic?
> 
> You want it straight, no chaser or stupid smiley faces?
> 
> You want to go man to man?
> 
> Well, there you go.
> 
> Stop the histrionics and the sanctimonious pontificating about the poor little homeowners and the big bad plumbers who take advantage of them and move on to something more fitting of a 'professional' forum. Oh, and while yer at it-stop busting Plumber Bill's ballz over some asinine request to "see parts". You want to see Wolverine parts? Go take a tour of their plant.
> 
> Surely the "best of the best" can handle a little old WB faucet once in awhile...
> 
> Mongrel out....


Why is asking to see parts of these great faucets that they stock so crazy sounding to you. It proves my point that these people dont have their money where their mouth is. They dont stock jack shiot not parts or the faucets.

If they do lets see some pics.....if not STFU.

"Mongrel out"....who are you the Ryan Seacrest of plumbing?:laughing: I bet your so cool you only hangout with guys.:thumbsup:

Women were a gift to me from GOD....get it straight!

Try to stay on topic this is not about me.....do you understand that?

DO I WANT TO GO MAN TO MAN?????? WTF does that mean?:laughing: Ok sure tough guy.:laughing:


----------



## SewerRatz

Well TM I can not find my little box of parts they gave me for the in case I need to make a repair, otherwise I would take pictures. The reason I can not find the box is it was in my 1998 van that I had the roll over accident in. So I think it might be buried in a storage shed. So as you can see as I install these units I have yet the need to repair any of these units hence me never looking for this tool box since my accident back in 2004.

I bet if I call them and tell them I misplaced the parts kit they gave me many years ago they would send me another one so I would have the parts on hand for the just in case a faucet I come across needs to be repaired.


----------



## TheMaster

SewerRatz said:


> Well TM I can not find my little box of parts they gave me for the in case I need to make a repair, otherwise I would take pictures. The reason I can not find the box is it was in my 1998 van that I had the roll over accident in. So I think it might be buried in a storage shed. So as you can see as I install these units I have yet the need to repair any of these units hence me never looking for this tool box since my accident back in 2004.
> 
> I bet if I call them and tell them I misplaced the parts kit they gave me many years ago they would send me another one so I would have the parts on hand for the just in case a faucet I come across needs to be repaired.


Do you think that surprises me that you cant find them? How about some faucets...can you find just one or two of them for me and post a pic?


----------



## Phat Cat

Every time an objection is overcome, more come up phrased slightly different.

I took one of the lav. faucets out of the box today - Clearly stamped on the faucet near the base "WOLVERINE" also the aerator has a WB stamped on it.
I'm assuming those who said they could not identify a WB faucet could read. So should I assume they were lying? No I don't make that conclusion - I assume that WB made the change at some point. Incredible, imagine someone on PZ taking you on your word - that's a novel idea!

Lead requirement - Directly from WB in print from their catalog "Effective January 1, 2010 California and Vermont have passed new laws requiring a deduction in lead content in potable water systems. While many companies are *cheapening* their faucets by substituting plastic for brass . . . At Wolverine Brass we have taken the lead out of our brass components while maintaining continued professional quality product." (The guts of a WB Essences S/L lav faucet - heavy no lead brass body, low lead brass aerator adapter, heavy no lead soft "K" copper tubing, Heavy low lead 1/2" brass connectors). Funny how this came up as it only applies to two states and neither state is serviced by the dissenters.

TM - Who made you Columbo? What makes you think you can demand pics from anyone? What we do or don't stock is no ones business. BUT, since you asked, we stock a lot of Delta repair parts. Does that mean Delta has a faulty product? I'm assuming it's because it is what the majority of our customers have. As for WB, we have run thousands of service calls and in that time period only had two calls to repair a WB faucet. One a K.S. faucet and the other was a T/S valve. So either there are precious few WB faucets out there, the original owner is loyal to the plumber who installed them, or they have an exceptional performance record. Each truck carries one of each replacement cartridge, though we have not had to use even one! Unlike you with deep pockets to invest in Delta, we find it foolish to stock items that collect dust.


----------



## SewerRatz

TheMaster said:


> Do you think that surprises me that you cant find them? How about some faucets...can you find just one or two of them for me and post a pic?


Sure thing I have a few faucets on my truck. I can post a picture. Also remember I am a service plumber. I repair the crap other guys put in, like Delta, Moen, Kohler, and so on. I do not do any remodels or new construction. When a home owner asks me for a new faucet, I bring in my Moen catalog WB catalog, and the Kohler catalog I explain to them the pro's and cons of each brand, and let them pick out what they like. 

Guess your reasoning I do not do my customers a great service for not caring one of each model water heater in my shop or carry the needed repair parts. I just got a call over the weekend, an AO Smith Burkay heater, 30+ years old the gas valve went out. Guess AO Smith is evil since I could not go into a hardware store and buy this gas valve right off the shelf, they are even more evil since none of my local supply houses carry this part. I had to order it and get it overnight shipped to me in order to get this boiler up and running. 

Just because I do not stock the parts needed or the faucets does not make me a bad plumber. I sell maybe 3 to 5 faucets a month. I repair 10 times that. Its funny cause I see lots of WB faucets out in the field the biggest thing I ever had to do to them was replace the aerator.


----------



## TheMaster

PlumbCrazy said:


> Every time an objection is overcome, more come up phrased slightly different.
> 
> I took one of the lav. faucets out of the box today - Clearly stamped on the faucet near the base "WOLVERINE" also the aerator has a WB stamped on it.
> I'm assuming those who said they could not identify a WB faucet could read. So should I assume they were lying? No I don't make that conclusion - I assume that WB made the change at some point. Incredible, imagine someone on PZ taking you on your word - that's a novel idea!
> 
> Lead requirement - Directly from WB in print from their catalog "Effective January 1, 2010 California and Vermont have passed new laws requiring a deduction in lead content in potable water systems. While many companies are *cheapening* their faucets by substituting plastic for brass . . . At Wolverine Brass we have taken the lead out of our brass components while maintaining continued professional quality product." (The guts of a WB Essences S/L lav faucet - heavy no lead brass body, low lead brass aerator adapter, heavy no lead soft "K" copper tubing, Heavy low lead 1/2" brass connectors). Funny how this came up as it only applies to two states and neither state is serviced by the dissenters.
> 
> TM - Who made you Columbo? What makes you think you can demand pics from anyone? What we do or don't stock is no ones business. BUT, since you asked, we stock a lot of Delta repair parts. Does that mean Delta has a faulty product? I'm assuming it's because it is what the majority of our customers have. As for WB, we have run thousands of service calls and in that time period only had two calls to repair a WB faucet. One a K.S. faucet and the other was a T/S valve. So either there are precious few WB faucets out there, the original owner is loyal to the plumber who installed them, or they have an exceptional performance record. Each truck carries one of each replacement cartridge, though we have not had to use even one! Unlike you with deep pockets to invest in Delta, we find it foolish to stock items that collect dust.


yeah yeah yeah pics or its all B.S. And we all know none of you guys stock the product you talk up as a great alternative to delta and Moen.....its all wishful thinking...wolverine faucets are UGLY and thats why you cant sell them....I dont blame ya I would stock that ugly crap either.


----------



## Phat Cat

Same here Sewer Ratz. We repair 95% of the time, new installs less than 5%.

We are more apt to do a replacement on the old Delta with acrylic handles, Price Pfister, Glacier Bay, and all the Delta knock-offs.

Replacements that are done to update with a new finish are usually supplied by the HO who went to the big box or a local supply house. It is nice to have a few to offer something when the HO has a leaking POS faucet that is not worth repairing.


----------



## TheMaster

SewerRatz said:


> Sure thing I have a few faucets on my truck. I can post a picture. Also remember I am a service plumber. I repair the crap other guys put in, like Delta, Moen, Kohler, and so on. I do not do any remodels or new construction. When a home owner asks me for a new faucet, I bring in my Moen catalog WB catalog, and the Kohler catalog I explain to them the pro's and cons of each brand, and let them pick out what they like.
> 
> Guess your reasoning I do not do my customers a great service for not caring one of each model water heater in my shop or carry the needed repair parts. I just got a call over the weekend, an AO Smith Burkay heater, 30+ years old the gas valve went out. Guess AO Smith is evil since I could not go into a hardware store and buy this gas valve right off the shelf, they are even more evil since none of my local supply houses carry this part. I had to order it and get it overnight shipped to me in order to get this boiler up and running.
> 
> Just because I do not stock the parts needed or the faucets does not make me a bad plumber. I sell maybe 3 to 5 faucets a month. I repair 10 times that. Its funny cause I see lots of WB faucets out in the field the biggest thing I ever had to do to them was replace the aerator.


Will those manufacturers sell to anyone or will the supply house sell the parts to anyone? Now will wolverine sell to anyone. Theres your difference but good try.

Thanks I would love to see those pics of those faucets.......R they good looking?:laughing: Cant wait to see the style...I bet it sells like hotcakes


----------



## Redwood

PlumbCrazy said:


> Every time an objection is overcome, more come up phrased slightly different.
> 
> I took one of the lav. faucets out of the box today - Clearly stamped on the faucet near the base "WOLVERINE" also the aerator has a WB stamped on it.
> I'm assuming those who said they could not identify a WB faucet could read. So should I assume they were lying? No I don't make that conclusion - I assume that WB made the change at some point. Incredible, imagine someone on PZ taking you on your word - that's a novel idea!


Nope PC...
The markings are a new thing...
Probably coming as a result of a discussion with a Wolverine Rep on another forum...
"Brassman" didn't do well in the discussion...
Remember that discussion Dunbar?:whistling2:

He didn't have very many friends there...:laughing:


----------



## SewerRatz

TheMaster said:


> Will those manufacturers sell to anyone or will the supply house sell the parts to anyone? Now will wolverine sell to anyone. Theres your difference but good try.
> 
> Thanks I would love to see those pics of those faucets.......R they good looking?:laughing: Cant wait to see the style...I bet it sells like hotcakes


 
Hmm Bradford White always says sold to Pro's only and installed by Pro's only. I bet there are more out there like that. And so F***ing what if they only want to sell to a plumber only? As I said in other posts If a home owner wants parts for the WB so they can fix it themselves I will give them the parts. I am not trying to sell them a faucet so I am the only guy to fix it. I sell it to them so they will have a faucet that lasts them a life time unlike many other brands out there that look like sh*t after a couple years.

You know when I go on a Moen repair call I give the owner the option to buy the parts off me or they could call 800-buy Moen and get the parts themselves for free, and if they are not comfortable installing the parts they can call me back when they get them.

You say we sell these to rip off the customer, or to trap them into using us for repair parts and so on. Then when I say I will give them the parts if they ask for them, and explain my reasons for selling them the faucet, then you come up with sh*t about wanting to see pictures of my inventory. Well I am sorry I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else here on the forums. If my customers want a quality faucet I will sell them one, even if I have to order it up.

You run your company the way you do, I will run ours the way we do. We been around since 1959, and it has not been by selling junk or ripping people off. If you do not like the fact I will sell these, sell Hydromatic sump pumps over Zoeller, and other items you do not agree with me, tough sh*t!


----------



## SewerRatz

I am done with this thread. I said my part, that I like the WB faucet, sell and install them when I do have a sale. I know I am giving my customers the best product and service and stand behind the product and my service. Thats is all is to it, no one here is going to change my mind on this.

TM you remind me of some of the local plumbing and drain shops that call and threaten us about us giving a 2 year guarantee on power roddings. They cuss us out saying we are ruining the business, that we should eat sh*t and die. If they ever see us they are going to trash our trucks and kick our asses. Again we been doing the 2 year guarantee since 1959 we offer it cause we know we do a good job with our rodding equipment and know it will last the two years as long as there is no abuse to the lines.


----------



## Redwood

SewerRatz said:


> Hmm Bradford White always says sold to Pro's only and installed by Pro's only. I bet there are more out there like that. And so F***ing what if they only want to sell to a plumber only?


As I recall I can buy Bradford White at several local supply houses...

Also parts are not proprietary...

That is the fundamental difference...:whistling2:

Is that too hard to comprehend? :no:


----------



## SewerRatz

Redwood said:


> As I recall I can buy Bradford White at several local supply houses...
> 
> Also parts are not proprietary...
> 
> That is the fundamental difference...:whistling2:
> 
> Is that too hard to comprehend? :no:


OK Redwood, I will respond to you. So what does it matter if I have to buy it from a supply house or have to buy it from the manufacture? As for parts not being proprietary, some of the parts are not stocked by the suppliers nor can you get them from a hardware store. For example gas control valves. Also the fact most supply houses here will not sell a non-plumber a Bradford white. 

I do not see anything wrong with manufactures wanting to sell directly to plumbers. Or wanting suppliers selling their products to plumbers only. Like in one of my other posts I said there are places that will not sell to the general public, for example a beautician supply will not let me buy even a brush unless I show them a license. I can not go into a HVAC supply and buy refrigerant with out showing them certifications. If all plumbing supplies did this with the plumbing products our industry would not have a bunch of handyhacks stealing business away from us. Thats why manufactures want to ensure their plumbing products only get in the hands of a plumber.

If you do not like how a manufacture does business then do not buy from them, but please do not try to convince me that I am wrong for dealing with them. home owners can do minor plumbing repairs (changing a washer flapper and such) but when it comes to disconnecting water lines and such that is a plumbers job. How many faucet installs have you seen done with parts that do not meet code, or you know for a fact that will cause flooding in the near future, like the watts floodsafe supply lines.


----------



## TheMaster

SewerRatz said:


> I am done with this thread. I said my part, that I like the WB faucet, sell and install them when I do have a sale. I know I am giving my customers the best product and service and stand behind the product and my service. Thats is all is to it, no one here is going to change my mind on this.
> 
> TM you remind me of some of the local plumbing and drain shops that call and threaten us about us giving a 2 year guarantee on power roddings. They cuss us out saying we are ruining the business, that we should eat sh*t and die. If they ever see us they are going to trash our trucks and kick our asses. Again we been doing the 2 year guarantee since 1959 we offer it cause we know we do a good job with our rodding equipment and know it will last the two years as long as there is no abuse to the lines.


How do I remind you of people in your community and in your same trade calling to threaten you? I have done nothing even closr nor ever have to anyone nor have I ever had another plumber in my community do anything but shake my hand. You are mistaken.

Now back to Wolverine faucets......Why do I see Delta faucets on your website and you have a moen pictured also.....you mention every popular brand BUT WOLVERINE......I ask you WHY IS THAT if its so good?


Lets see some pics of those wolverine boat anchors......thats about how attractive they are. But hey they have a 5lb showerhead. 

I know for a fact none of you are gonna post the pics because they are all ugly:laughing: nasty ho dawg 100 yrd ugly


----------



## Redwood

Indie said:


> Dunbar,
> 
> As per an email I received, the Wolverine Brass rep(that won't come on),


I know why the rep won't come on....:laughing:

Hi Brassman!:whistling2:


----------



## Redwood

SewerRatz said:


> OK Redwood, I will respond to you. So what does it matter if I have to buy it from a supply house or have to buy it from the manufacture? As for parts not being proprietary, some of the parts are not stocked by the suppliers nor can you get them from a hardware store. For example gas control valves. Also the fact most supply houses here will not sell a non-plumber a Bradford white.


I have no problem with products in the "Regular" supply chain being sold to plumbers only. I kind of like the idea actually. Especially when it comes to gas appliances. But with the years of non-marking recently changed and the Amway dealer style of marketing doesn't bode well with me...

It only serves to give the WB stocking program plumber a leg up over his competition. This statement I have stated consistently through out this discussion...:whistling2:



SewerRatz said:


> I do not see anything wrong with manufactures wanting to sell directly to plumbers. Or wanting suppliers selling their products to plumbers only. Like in one of my other posts I said there are places that will not sell to the general public, for example a beautician supply will not let me buy even a brush unless I show them a license. I can not go into a HVAC supply and buy refrigerant with out showing them certifications. If all plumbing supplies did this with the plumbing products our industry would not have a bunch of handyhacks stealing business away from us. Thats why manufactures want to ensure their plumbing products only get in the hands of a plumber.


Drop the Amway style marketing and sell through supply houses as Bradford White does my objections are over... Again I have stated this consistently...



SewerRatz said:


> If you do not like how a manufacture does business then do not buy from them, but please do not try to convince me that I am wrong for dealing with them. home owners can do minor plumbing repairs (changing a washer flapper and such) but when it comes to disconnecting water lines and such that is a plumbers job. How many faucet installs have you seen done with parts that do not meet code, or you know for a fact that will cause flooding in the near future, like the watts floodsafe supply lines.


Power to them if they watch this old house and buy Home Depots best...
If they hired a plumber the plumber would hopefully know better than to install Watts Floodsafe connectors...
They get what they pay for ...

Maybe the flood will convince them that they shouldn't be doing it...:whistling2:


----------



## user2090

Redwood said:


> I know why the rep won't come on....:laughing:
> 
> Hi Brassman!:whistling2:


I knew at least one of you wouldn't miss that. Hey thanks for all the input, this has been my most successful thread. 
All you guys need is one more and you can start a Barbershop Quartet. Maybe you can sing songs about how much you hate Wolverine Brass. Better yet, we could refer to you as the *4 Horseman of the plumbing Apocalypse*.
I see that TM, admitted to using some Wolverine Brass products.
How about the others, Dunbar? Redwood? Either of you use any wolverine brass product?


----------



## user2090

Redwood said:


> I know why the rep won't come on....:laughing:
> 
> Hi Brassman!:whistling2:


Are you actually bragging about bashing someone? Please clarify, it sounds like you might have delighted in the misery of another.:huh:


----------



## Redwood

Indie said:


> Are you actually bragging about bashing someone? Please clarify, it sounds like you might have delighted in the misery of another.:huh:


Nope...
The rep using the name Brassman and I have had this same discussion before...
Evidently some points were taken as they now mark their product...:laughing:

I will say that I do have the WB cartridges in my possession now so I can offer instant gratification to those who have been snookered into the purchase of WB faucets...

But I know there are a lot of plumbers out there who are going to fall victim to the scam...

Finding an older unmarked WB faucet wasting a lot of time and money trying to get the job done...

Red's no dummy...:whistling2:


----------



## TheMaster

Indie said:


> I knew at least one of you wouldn't miss that. Hey thanks for all the input, this has been my most successful thread.
> All you guys need is one more and you can start a Barbershop Quartet. Maybe you can sing songs about how much you hate Wolverine Brass. Better yet, we could refer to you as the *4 Horseman of the plumbing Apocalypse*.
> I see that TM, admitted to using some Wolverine Brass products.
> How about the others, Dunbar? Redwood? Either of you use any wolverine brass product?


Admittted??? I said many times befo I've used some wolverine products.....but thats not the topic. We can have a wolverine product discussion.

Their bibb screws suck and are useless for some faucets as the head hits the seat...Piss poor and I should send them all back and get my money back. I think I might.

I like their close coupled tank bolts and the big orange flapper is good. Creed made a line of rubber products named "gatorskin" they were also very good. Wolverine makes good p-traps and chromed brass tubular products.

I'm not hating just to hate...I have valid complaints.


----------



## user2090

TheMaster said:


> Admittted??? I said many times befo I've used some wolverine products.....but thats not the topic. We can have a wolverine product discussion.
> 
> Their bibb screws suck and are useless for some faucets as the head hits the seat...Piss poor and I should send them all back and get my money back. I think I might.
> 
> I like their close coupled tank bolts and the big orange flapper is good. Creed made a line of rubber products named "gatorskin" they were also very good. Wolverine makes good p-traps and chromed brass tubular products.
> 
> I'm not hating just to hate...I have valid complaints.


I understand you have complaints, but to many of us, they don't seem to make sense. It seems that when someone address a complaint, you change the argument. I keep reading the updated posts, and see no real coherent argument.


----------



## TheMaster

Indie said:


> I understand you have complaints, but to many of us, they don't seem to make sense. It seems that when someone address a complaint, you change the argument. I keep reading the updated posts, and see no real coherent argument.


You keep trying to address me personally. Lets keep this about Wolverine...I know its a sore subject but it IS THE SUBJECT 

Wolverine has out themselves in a box....dont expect me to get in their with them.

Their faucets are ugly

They are not any cheaper

They are not very common...i wonder why??? plenty of plumbers use other wolverine products here but not the faucets. It's a descent faucet but its not sold cheap enough to get my attention and its not any more reliable than the other two major brands...nor does it have the support that moen and delta have with readily availble parts at most stores that sell plumbing supplies.

WHY should I buy a faucet from wolverine that costs me as much or more than a Delta when the Delta sells itself,has a great warranty and is supported with repair parts for non-warranty repairs by almost evey hardware store in the country? Its not like I have trouble with Delta so why consider somthing else????? Thats UGLY as shiot too on top of it.


----------



## TheMaster

Indie said:


> Are you actually bragging about bashing someone? Please clarify, it sounds like you might have delighted in the misery of another.:huh:


Who cares if he is.....I'll kick a mofo in the teeth and love it when they scream if they deserve it. You cant stay on topic for shiot when the real truths come out can ya?

Wolverine faucets suck and if that rep will sign up...we shall prove it. I'm saving some good stuff for him.


----------



## Everflow

All of you are silly.

1-I'm a plumber
2-I take pride in my work
3-When I leave a job it has my name on it

Last week I trimmed a house in Moen. This week I'm in the middle of trimming one in Delta. Both are now box store junk. It's embarrassing to put in. Could someone tell me what brand name is even half way decent anymore.

I've never used Wolverine, but after this topic we are going to look into them.

Does anyone sell a half decent water heater anymore.


----------



## Redwood

Everflow said:


> Does anyone sell a half decent water heater anymore.


Yea...
Heat Transfer Products...

Electric Click Here

High Efficiency Gas Click Here

Indirect Click Here

Oil I'll say stick with Bock:thumbup:


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## king john

it's awesome dude....it's nice where you find it


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## Will

I've used WB and I like them. I like how solid they feel. They seem like they would last a long, long, time. I've only installed maybe 20 WB faucets over the years as the company I woorked for before only just started using them before I left. Never had a problem that I know with them. 

Delta, Moen, PP, AS, Kohler etc are all getting junkier. Sicking to see, but they have soldout to the big boxes, and it shows in there newer products. Delta and Moen still sell a pretty good product, but they have lowered there standard. 

I see nothing wrong with selling only too a plumber. HVAC and Eletricial do that with alot of there stuff. Why have plumbers ben pushovers? Sickens me to see gas fittings at Lowes, no homeowner should be working on gas. 

My dad was a Engineer and if he would or other Engineers found out that some Joe blow was acting like a Engiineer , but not being cetified, they would run that yahoo out of town and sue. Why don't plumbers do that?

You have to protect your skill. Plumbing is a skill that takes time to fully understand and learn. When you need medicine you go to a pharmacy to get the good stuff, after a Doctor gives you the ok. Or go to Wally world for the crap. It's in every feild, that why you get specialized and why people go to people that are specialized. Cause there is no where else to go. When an AC doesn't work people call an AC guy. Why? Cause they have too, cause they are the only ones that can get the parts to fix it most of the time. And people trust that the AC guy will get the best stuff. What do people do when there toilets don't work? They go to lowes and buy a toilet cause they are availible. They go home and break a seal, don't get a permit, and cause problems. They should have called a plumber. Why have plumbers just let this crap happen? People think they can get the same stuff at Lowes that a Plumber can get from a supplier. It's not true. 

Anyway I've reatd this whole debate. Great read(lol). Plumbers need to step up and get the T back in tradesman. Plumbing is getting easier and easier every year. We nned to put a stop to this crap. Quit using crap like sharkbites cause it's faster and easier. If someone is paid you 100 bucks an hour don't you think you should solder that pipe instead of sharkbiting it? 

WB is a good product and "most" plumbers who use it are doing it cause they take pride in what they do and want to put in the best for there customer. Whats wrong with that? You have to get a Dr's ok to get antibiotics don't you? Guess thats wrong to huh?


----------



## Altitude

Redwood said:


> The answers in red are my opinion...
> It's not going to change...:whistling2:


 Good for you! It's not good for people to change. I hardly agree that the ONLY REASON plumbers would put in a WB Faucet is to keep customer in dark. First of all, they clearly mark their faucets with a WB right on the handle,(pretty hard to miss). Secondly, Delta has gone so far downhill in quality it's pathetic.They sell to the Big-Box and we ALL know what happens when a manufacturer starts to do that!! If anyone needs this explained to them I will be happy to do so. I don't find parts for WB hard-to-find at all and never have.I don't find them all that much diff. from most of the other faucets on the market today and I have been a Master Plumber for 38 years now. I think people let new things intimidate them. Delta's Kitchen faucet for example, they have made installing their faucet so easy that I actually had my 7 year old grandson install it by the pictures!! Is that what we as professionals want?! Not Me!


----------



## COMasterPlmbr

TheMaster said:


> I bet you didn't tell him if he needs parts that he cant call the manufacturer and request parts.


 Actually, if the homeowner calls and talks to Customer service @ Wolverine Brass and tells them about their faucet,they will typically send-out cartridge @ no-charge!:whistling2:


----------



## Tommy plumber

COMasterPlmbr said:


> Actually, if the homeowner calls and talks to Customer service @ Wolverine Brass and tells them about their faucet,they will typically send-out cartridge @ no-charge!:whistling2:


 




Please post us an introduction in the intro section, thanks!


----------



## Tommy plumber

Altitude said:


> Good for you! It's not good for people to change. I hardly agree that the ONLY REASON plumbers would put in a WB Faucet is to keep customer in dark. First of all, they clearly mark their faucets with a WB right on the handle,(pretty hard to miss). Secondly, Delta has gone so far downhill in quality it's pathetic.They sell to the Big-Box and we ALL know what happens when a manufacturer starts to do that!! If anyone needs this explained to them I will be happy to do so. I don't find parts for WB hard-to-find at all and never have.I don't find them all that much diff. from most of the other faucets on the market today and I have been a Master Plumber for 38 years now. I think people let new things intimidate them. Delta's Kitchen faucet for example, they have made installing their faucet so easy that I actually had my 7 year old grandson install it by the pictures!! Is that what we as professionals want?! Not Me!


 




Please post us an introduction in the intro section, thanks!


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## user2090

*Update*

I have not bought any valves for myself yet, mostly a money thing. I say that with much regret, as I have had to buy inferior pieces of crap to change out.

Each time I have made a purchase and installation it is with regret, and a memory of a high quality faucet that I one time installed. The last one I did was more like brass tubes that I swear I could easily bend by hand. 

This is a problem that I am working on correcting as we speak. If things go well enough in the next couple of months I will have a proper stock of WB valves, the Essence line. I have done the research and for my company I think it is a wise decision. 

I have a single handle tub/shower valve coming and look forward to comparing it to the Deltas I usually buy. 

For those who do install Wolverine Brass faucets are there any problems I might want to be aware of? Thanks in advance.


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## RealLivePlumber

No problems.

Some info. I use the Endurance with the loop handle. There are now 2 valve bodies available. I use the original style. It is a tad large, but I have never had an issue with size.

The newer one is called a " compact " I guess it is smaller for a retrofit application.


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## plumb nutz

Ok, so here is the lavy faucet I have in my house. This particular faucet is abused by kids all day long. It's dirty, but after 5 years cleans up real nice and no leaks.

Also is one of the free cartridges I have. The others are buried behind the stack of kohler, moen, and delta parts.

Added the OEM Toto parts for the Drake as this is the toilet we recommend and keep repair parts for. Not pictured are the 2 left and 1 right trip levers. By the way, no after market fill valve will properly work in a Toto due to the amount of fill into the bowl.


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## RealLivePlumber

Incorrect about the aftermarket ballcock on a Toto.

Fluidmaster Pro 45 HR.


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## Nevada Plumber

RealLivePlumber said:


> Incorrect about the aftermarket ballcock on a Toto.
> 
> Fluidmaster Pro 45 HR.


I carry a couple of those Pro 45 HR and a couple of the Fluidmaster 3" adjustable flappers on the truck. It sure beats having to carry the individual flappers and fill valves for those newer toilets.


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## Will

Indie said:


> I have not bought any valves for myself yet, mostly a money thing. I say that with much regret, as I have had to buy inferior pieces of crap to change out.
> 
> Each time I have made a purchase and installation it is with regret, and a memory of a high quality faucet that I one time installed. The last one I did was more like brass tubes that I swear I could easily bend by hand.
> 
> This is a problem that I am working on correcting as we speak. If things go well enough in the next couple of months I will have a proper stock of WB valves, the Essence line. I have done the research and for my company I think it is a wise decision.
> 
> I have a single handle tub/shower valve coming and look forward to comparing it to the Deltas I usually buy.
> 
> For those who do install Wolverine Brass faucets are there any problems I might want to be aware of? Thanks in advance.


Get there Single Handle Finale Lavatory faucet. It's the best they make(one of the best made faucet period). It's only in chrome or brushed nickel. The Finale is solid brass. Even the water ways. The Endurance line is good too. 

I don't really like there single handle tub and shower valves. There not any better than a Delta. There 3 handle tub and shower valves are one of the better ones on the market though. 

I've heard a few problems with there pull out kitchen faucets, but I haven't installed any of there pull out sprayers because I hate pull out sprayers.


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## RealLivePlumber

Will said:


> Get there Single Handle Finale Lavatory faucet. It's the best they make(one of the best made faucet period). It's only in chrome or brushed nickel. The Finale is solid brass. Even the water ways. The Endurance line is good too.
> 
> I don't really like there single handle tub and shower valves. There not any better than a Delta. There 3 handle tub and shower valves are one of the better ones on the market though.
> 
> I've heard a few problems with there pull out kitchen faucets, but I haven't installed any of there pull out sprayers because I hate pull out sprayers.


 
There is a slight [:whistling2:] difference between WB's tub/shwr and Delta. 

1) MADE IN USA.


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## Will

Do you use there single handle tub and shower valve? I was not too impressed with it, and I like Wolverine Brass stuff. I order atleast a 1/3 of my supplies through them. 

What do you like about there Single Handle Tub and Shower Valves? I may order a few just to try them out, I don't really like the way the handle operates(the same way as a lavatory or older delta single handle single handle shower valves did)


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## Phat Cat

There was a problem with their S/L kitchen sink faucet, not the pull down spray one. The issue was in the diverter. It functioned fine, no drips. The issue was a water hammer like noise. It has since been corrected. Our sales rep. took back what we had and gave us new.


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## Turd Herder

TheMaster said:


> Selling a faucet that the customer cant buy parts is not doing them any favors....i dont care how good the faucet is suppose to be.


 That is a good point. But cant they buy parts from you as a wolverine brass dealer?
One of the good things about WB vs the other manufacturer's is that you only need a handful of parts to repair ALL of their faucets (which you can stock at no cost with a polite request from your rep). Other manufacturer's faucets may require multiple trips to the parts store, shipping costs, and shipping delays.
I tell our customers that if the cartridge or shower head goes bad, I will come and replace it free of charge.
As for the trim, I will replace it free under the WB warrranty period. After that expires, they can buy it from me or another WB dealer in town.
regards,
Scott


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## plumb nutz

RealLivePlumber said:


> Incorrect about the aftermarket ballcock on a Toto.
> 
> Fluidmaster Pro 45 HR.


Ah... No, I'm not incorrect.

Yes you can use a fluidmaster, but the flush may not be correct as the fill for the bowl is different from that of a fluidmaster.

Just like you can't use The blue (1.6) for the green (1.28)

But what do I know? I only asked one of the top dogs from Toto USA...


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## RealLivePlumber

Ah, you are still.............Nevermind. 

The Pro 45 HR [I interpret the "HR" to be an acronym for "high refill" rate.] allows for an adjustment of the water that refills the BOWL, through the overflow tube. It will allow the bowl in a Toto to be refilled to the correct level, therefore allowing the water closet to properly function.


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## RealLivePlumber

What do I know. I've only researched it, located a product to improve the functionality of a Toto water closet. Ordered them. Stock them. Installed them. 

And then shared the info on the Zone. 

http://www.fluidmasterpro.com/index...ill-valve-for-toto-and-kohler-class-five.html

Tell the top dog at Toto he's an idiot.


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## Herk

I still have a burr under my saddle over the Plumber Friendly fiasco. They made a big splash and sold some super heavy-duty faucets for a very reasonable price. And, bonus, they would throw in cartridges with every order in case you ever needed to repair any of them. I never have. But I bought a couple of thousand dollars' worth of the things and thought that they were going to be my faucet of choice. Heavy brass in presentation boxes. 

Then they yanked the stool out from under us - they were a subsidiary of Wolverine Brass and had been too successful - cutting into WB's margins. No longer available. 

The only version that I had trouble with was the T/S model with a teensy pressure spool and flimsy seal. 

I suppose if you're turning over enough money these WB faucets are a good deal. But most of my customers hand me a faucet that they got at Homey or Lowe's and want me to install it. Nobody's letting a plumber mark up a faucet anymore, though since I'm flat rate it doesn't matter at all to me. They pick out what they like and I install it. Otherwise I'm installing replacements in rentals or for people who just want it cheap. I use Gerber, which is like cheaper faucets except for slightly better parts. 

I can't afford to stock what I don't sell, so WB won't be likely to send any faucets my way.

And I still remember those WB cartridges/stems from many years ago that I had to take out with a small chisel and hammer when they started to leak. Our hard water made simply pulling them out impossible. They came out in little pieces. I don't have any Kudos for any current faucet makers. Most of them are making junk. And heavy does not equate to well-designed. Having seen the WB faucets (there's a catalog around here somewhere) I don't think they're particularly good-looking.


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## plumb nutz

RealLivePlumber said:


> Ah, you are still.............Nevermind.
> 
> The Pro 45 HR allows for an adjustment of the water that refills the BOWL, through the overflow tube. It will allow the bowl in a Toto to be refilled to the correct level, therefore allowing the water closet to properly function.


This is my last bit of drift on this thread reguarding this issue...

I personally don't care if you found some go round on an after market part...

I will continue to use the engineered part for the engineered toilet. I can carry the few things I need to repair a toilet that I highly recommend and only recommend using OEM parts...

As far as calling someone you never met an idiot, well...

He's the one that got Toto to make that wonderful Drake to begin with. I learned more about repairing all their products in 2hrs that would have taken days with the service manual...

No question went unanswered, all complaints were addressed, particularly the fill valves and flappers going bad within one year round here...

So let me be frank. I have learned a few things from a few here. It does seem that some are definitely larger than life, quite a few others who only seem to find time to b*tch about this customer or this product or this company or this plumber or this handy hack... Or type with their big fat fingers as if they are the 10 ton gorilla in the room...

Do yourself a favor, check your ego at the door...

The OP was about WB and its product, and the thread went from that to repair parts "only a plumber can get (thank god a few companies think of the tradesperson before they think of the homeowner and the bottom line)" and someone also mentioned getting Toto parts...
I was just saying that as a SERVICE tech who recommends a product and installs a product that I keep the basic repair parts STOCKED. I have no difficulty getting any issue resolved with them...

And I will pimp their wares until the time comes when that changes...


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## Turd Herder

Herk said:


> .
> I suppose if you're turning over enough money these WB faucets are a good deal. But most of my customers hand me a faucet that they got at Homey or Lowe's and want me to install it. Nobody's letting a plumber mark up a faucet anymore, though since I'm flat rate it doesn't matter at all to me. They pick out what they like and I install it. Otherwise I'm installing replacements in rentals or for people who just want it cheap. I use Gerber, which is like cheaper faucets except for slightly better parts.
> 
> I can't afford to stock what I don't sell, so WB won't be likely to send any faucets my way.
> 
> And I still remember those WB cartridges/stems from many years ago that I had to take out with a small chisel and hammer when they started to leak. Our hard water made simply pulling them out impossible. They came out in little pieces. I don't have any Kudos for any current faucet makers. Most of them are making junk. And heavy does not equate to well-designed. Having seen the WB faucets (there's a catalog around here somewhere) I don't think they're particularly good-looking.


You dont stock any faucets at all? For every faucet we install that is customer supplied, we install 3 of the faucets that are stocked in our trucks. In my experience, our call back ratio for big box faucet installs is very high. 
One thing that drives me bonkers is getting called back to a big box faucet install because of some cheap plastic pop up assemble that leaks and wont seal or a supply tube that leaks because it was poorly sealed at the factory.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

I stock 2 laundry tub faucets, a tub/shower faucet and that's it. The majority has their product for us to install.

I've been plumbing over 24 years now and as long as wolverine brass hides the product from the public from accessing what's installed in their homes...

won't see me recommending any chunk of brass that only 3 plumbers in my area have parts for. 

They make great piles for scrap value... 

And to top it off with their latest spokesperson? Are you F-ing kidding me?


I put in what's sold everywhere. I'm profitable enough to not hide the facts from my customers that they won't be finding parts to fix those faucets, online or anyone but the fellow who installed it.


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## Redwood

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> And to top it off with their latest spokesperson? Are you F-ing kidding me?


Oh this guy? :laughing:

Talk about a slap in the face to the industry....:blink:


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## retired rooter

TheMaster said:


> If we were in court I would have just won...you admit in number 4 above that your just trying to keep others from working on it when you dont need a license to repair a tub faucet. You cutting the owner out of his own picture and alot of other plumbers also on pure purpose. Thank you case closed.
> 
> I am going to put wolverine to a test.....i'ma call and tell them I'm a plumber but do not have a plumbing business and see if they will sell me parts or give me parts for a customer that has one of wolverines faucets.


 OK guys I put myself on a faucet craft (wolverine) single handle faucet APPROX 9 yrs ago and the cartridge is getting hard to work. Monday I am going to get a replacement from wolverine(either free or buy it ,don't care) I will let you guys know how it goes (the only thing wrong is it is getting harder to turn on and off not leaking ,I greased the inside of spout ,that part works great ,just a little hard to work the handle)


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## retired rooter

http://raysislandplumbing.net/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=62_65&products_id=108 this site used to have pics of wolverine faucets


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## Joseph clegg

Indie said:


> Today I had an opportunity to replace an old 3-handle valve tub/shower valve with a Wolverine Brass Essence. I had an economy brand with me also. When I presented the two options to the customer, the husband was all over the Wolv. Essence. That valve was built like a tank. Everything about that valve just seemed to reek quality. I bet the showerhead weighed in at about the same as the body of the economy one.
> 
> If that valve is an indication of how they make the rest of their valves, I see no reason not to start installing them. I really want to get my hands on a lav. and kitchen faucet to check them out.
> 
> On another note, when I told the lady of the house that the cartridge had a 100 year warranty, she laughed at me, then I showed her the paperwork.
> 
> I would love to hear from those that actually install the Wolv. Brass faucet line. I know that a couple of thread have touched on them, but it can't hurt to hear some more.
> 
> Yes TM, I know your a Delta man.:laughing:


I used wolverine brass for many years. The faucets are built like tanks but beware wb products have gone down in quality due to the economy. Alot of their products are not made in the us but taiwan and china. I have valves I installed 2 yrs ago springing leaks from the brass itself not even the sweat joint. Just saying wb is not what it used to be we switched to moen for faucets and buy from a local plumbing supply now. I do miss the wolverine of old though used to be great stuff good prices.


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## 504Plumber

we just started using wolverine parts, very impressed with the basket strainers, stops and flappers. We have not used any of their faucets yet, I have repaired a few older 2 and three handle faucets. Maybe we are lucky down here, 2 supply houses carry stems and a buddy of mine is a wolverine rep...


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## user2090

Joseph clegg said:


> I used wolverine brass for many years. The faucets are built like tanks but beware wb products have gone down in quality due to the economy. Alot of their products are not made in the us but taiwan and china. I have valves I installed 2 yrs ago springing leaks from the brass itself not even the sweat joint. Just saying wb is not what it used to be we switched to moen for faucets and buy from a local plumbing supply now. I do miss the wolverine of old though used to be great stuff good prices.



I've been wondering about that. Lately I have installed several shower valves, and already had a cartridge leak. :blink: May have to go back to delta shower valves if this persists. I will however stick with the lavatory and Kitchen faucets.


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## Joseph clegg

Indie said:


> I've been wondering about that. Lately I have installed several shower valves, and already had a cartridge leak. :blink: May have to go back to delta shower valves if this persists. I will however stick with the lavatory and Kitchen faucets.


The shower valves " new models " are very delicate I'm sure you do but always remove the cartridge, pb assembly, and integral stops as they contain rubber seals which will always leak if in place while soldering. Also important grease all parts with silicon based grease when reassembling all internal parts.


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## user2090

Joseph clegg said:


> The shower valves " new models " are very delicate I'm sure you do but always remove the cartridge, pb assembly, and integral stops as they contain rubber seals which will always leak if in place while soldering. Also important grease all parts with silicon based grease when reassembling all internal parts.



Done and done. :laughing:

Be a silly mistake to burn up rubber parts. Rep acted surprised that a cartridge leaked, I told him I don't care if he is surprised get me a new cartridge. 

The learning curve is funny to me. All these years of Delta faucets and now I am reading specs for the new valves.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Joseph clegg said:


> I used wolverine brass for many years. The faucets are built like tanks *but beware wb products have gone down in quality due to the economy*. Alot of their products are not made in the us but taiwan and china.:chinese::arabia: I have valves I installed 2 yrs ago springing leaks from the brass itself not even the sweat joint. Just saying wb is not what it used to be we switched to moen for faucets and buy from a local plumbing supply now. I do miss the wolverine of old though used to be great stuff good prices.


 
* I sure hope no one thought I miss this little piece of goodness. lol*

Oh I just love where this thread is going, and every homeowner reading my words in the future,

Google "Dunbar Plumbing + Wolverine Brass" and see how much I go to bat to dismiss any product you cannot get access to fix yourself, or hire another plumber without 2-3 in the 50 mile radius that has parts available without carrying a tractor trailer around for parts.


Keep making those chunks of brass you call faucets. I'm sure eventually you'll remove that paper weight mentality to cut even more costs. :laughing:


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## Cal

Indie said:


> Done and done. :laughing:
> 
> Be a silly mistake to burn up rubber parts. Rep acted surprised that a cartridge leaked, I told him I don't care if he is surprised get me a new cartridge.
> 
> The learning curve is funny to me. All these years of Delta faucets and now I am reading specs for the new valves.


 Installing lots of WB . VERY good stuff . Let's not joke ,,, ALL faucet companies have a issue sometimes ! 

Had a bad cartridge out of the box on a T/S valve . Turned off the stops , Rep had me a new cartridge PLUS another one i requested 36 hours later . 

I HEAR DB , and a few of the other guys on here . I respect their opinions and understand the concerns that a homeowner can't just run to the big box and get a part . YES ,, I HEAR YA ! But I've gotta give Wolverine their props for not drinking the Big Box kool-aid ,, selling out and just in it for as much $ as they can grab . Cheapness of products from all the other faucet companies is Terrible !!! Like kid play toys ,, 

EVERY man made product can have a defect . Not all their stuff is USA made ,but a lot is . I try to buy all USA stuff ,, the stuff that isn't i know they will stand behind just as well ! 
my .02


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## Richard Hilliard

I just needed a Glacier Bay part. I had to buy a lousy faucet just to get a cartridge to fix the faucet today. Same thing with Price Pfister and may other faucet parts in this area. I am not sure where a home owner can easily get parts to gas water heaters to install themselves, lift station pump parts; some toilet parts especially American Standard 1 piece toilets (no A/S dealer in my immediate area). I can go on and one concerning parts not available to the home owner with their plumbing products.

I am in business to make a profit and to maximize profits. When a customer hands you a product to install does not mean they are not willing to purchase your product. The customer may not know about your product and the benefits of your product over the one they have purchased.


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## pdxplumber

The thing nobody is saying here is that installing a stupid faucet is not plumbing. Any a**hole with a flash light and basin wrench can install a kitchen or lav faucet. The big box stores have pushed the major faucet manufacturers into disposable faucets. Who the hell repairs a faucet anymore. They are made cheap and stupid so the average home owner can install it and throw it away when finish fashions change. The last Delta I put in was a huge POS. Had to pull it out and install a W. Brass. The handle feel felt like an old tractor transmission. It's all crap. I give up trying to supply faucets, more profit in installing customer supplied crap with no warranty.


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## user2090

pdxplumber said:


> The thing nobody is saying here is that installing a stupid faucet is not plumbing. Any a**hole with a flash light and basin wrench can install a kitchen or lav faucet. The big box stores have pushed the major faucet manufacturers into disposable faucets. Who the hell repairs a faucet anymore. They are made cheap and stupid so the average home owner can install it and throw it away when finish fashions change. The last Delta I put in was a huge POS. Had to pull it out and install a W. Brass. The handle feel felt like an old tractor transmission. It's all crap. I give up trying to supply faucets, more profit in installing customer supplied crap with no warranty.



The best thing Delta puts out is their tub/shower valve, but that is not reason enough for me to use it. I don't plan on offering a whole lot of options unless the customer likes what they see in my catalog and are willing to wait on delivery, or I send them to the wholesaler showroom and suggest Delta products. 

As of now I am committed to the Essence line in chrome. Stock a few of each and sell as it comes in. Nice thing about the tub/shower valve is just like Delta in there is a rough in valve with trim kit options.


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## HSI

I only at this time carry WB faucet and valves. IMOP they are far better than the big box stores carry. I give a five year parts and labor warranty on any WB faucet I install. If the faucet or valve develops an issue WB will send replacement parts for free. I believe Moen and Delta will do the same. So if your customer that you sold your box store faucet has an issue do you inform them that they can get their parts for free?
I do not work for HD or Lowes and do my best to stay away from most of the stuff they carry. I seem to change a lot of Moen, Delta, and PP faucets that are 10 to 15 years old and are completely shot. I try to steer my customers away from crap like that by explaining how durable WB faucets are and cover my thoughts with a great warranty. Of course I will install any customer supplied faucet but make it clear there is no warranty on parts they supply.
I never bad mouth a different company for the work or product they have sold to a customer. This in my opinion is bad business. I do show them a better way and or a better product to use. Never know if they installed it themselves or had a friend of family member do it.


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## Cal

The plastic hook up lines on all the other faucets now just dissapoints the H*LL out of me !

I LOVE the heavy metal hook ups & pop ups of WB ! I just can't support the others anymore ( omen , delta , etc ) 

Had a bad situation the other day were we had to put a T/S valve in a 2"x3 wall . They really wanted Kohler till i pulled out the WB essense ,, it fit in wall and they ordered 3 more !! EXCELLENT !


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## 130 PLUMBER

I've been using WB for 8 years with excellent results!!!! The only parts that aren't WB that we stock is, pumps, copper, toilets and pvc. Did i mention everything we do plumbing wise gets a 3 years warranty Parts & Labor:yes::yes::yes:


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## retired rooter

retired rooter said:


> OK guys I put myself on a faucet craft (wolverine) single handle faucet APPROX 9 yrs ago and the cartridge is getting hard to work. Monday I am going to get a replacement from wolverine(either free or buy it ,don't care) I will let you guys know how it goes (the only thing wrong is it is getting harder to turn on and off not leaking ,I greased the inside of spout ,that part works great ,just a little hard to work the handle)


 monday 11/28th I called wolverine talked to customer service (I purposely DID NOT mention that I was a plumber ,just told her that I needed a cartridge for a single lever kitchen faucet she asked for my address with no other questions) I had no idea that ANYONE who called their customer service could get free parts ?? Maybe it was the cartridge only ,surely they don't just send free replacement parts(stems ect) to anyone who knows what to ask for?? beats the hellouta me!!!


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## user2090

retired rooter said:


> monday 11/28th I called wolverine talked to customer service (I purposely DID NOT mention that I was a plumber ,just told her that I needed a cartridge for a single lever kitchen faucet she asked for my address with no other questions) I had no idea that ANYONE who called their customer service could get free parts ?? Maybe it was the cartridge only ,surely they don't just send free replacement parts(stems ect) to anyone who knows what to ask for?? beats the hellouta me!!!



Did they match your address? I think they have a good caller id system, and if your in the system it might have been assumed. Last time I called they asked me to verify the number they had.


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## Phat Cat

Retired Rooter - I sure hope that is not the norm. I cannot imagine too many H.O.'s though trying to get the parts themselves. Firstly, they would have to know it's a WB faucet (older ones were not labeled), then they would need to find the number to WB, next what valve they have. If they want to go that far, I'm find with WB sending them one direct.

On the other hand, if it were a real PITA and you needed invoice number from orig. purchase, your customer ID #, and they asked you for proof that the warranty card was filled out, most plumbers would be livid.

One thing is for certain, they do stand behind their product and customer service has always been excellent.


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