# AAV question



## double45

Hey guys, new to the site. First year apprentice so bear with me here..

Im roughing in a full bath. Individual vent for the shower, followed by a 3" toilet waste line with a branch to the lav before the toilet. how far can the toilet be from the stack to stack vent it, if possible? 

or

could i wet vent the toilet through an aav on the lav?

thanks


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## rjbphd

You already did 20 houses and not working under a licensed journeyman??


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## double45

No, I am.


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## jmc12185

I would put the entire bathroom on an air admittance valve. It's the best way. If your gonna wet vent the toilet, just make sure it's 1 1/2.


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## rjbphd

jmc12185 said:


> I would put the entire bathroom on an air admittance valve. It's the best way. If your gonna wet vent the toilet, just make sure it's 1 1/2.


This boiler guy knows it all!! Lol


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## jmc12185

That's right... Nothing but the best. Haha


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## jmc12185

You couldn't pay me to install an AAV anywhere .. Where there's a will, there's a way.


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## rjbphd

In rare cases, I 'll use the aav to save structure damage.. btw, how far are you from Bethpage??


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

You should ask ur j man !!!!


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## rjbphd

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> You should ask ur j man !!!!


Don't think he's a plumber appreicate if he asking that question...


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## jmc12185

rjbphd said:


> In rare cases, I 'll use the aav to save structure damage.. btw, how far are you from Bethpage??


I'm about a half hour from bethpage. Some inspectors around here would rather you drill a window jack and use a stud shoe than use an air admittance valve.


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## crown36

double45 said:


> Hey guys, new to the site. First year apprentice so bear with me here..
> 
> Im roughing in a full bath. Individual vent for the shower, followed by a 3" toilet waste line with a branch to the lav before the toilet. how far can the toilet be from the stack to stack vent it, if possible?
> 
> or
> 
> could i wet vent the toilet through an aav on the lav?
> 
> thanks


 You can wet vent a bathroom group off any fixture that has a dry vent extending as long as it's not an EFD and it is a fixture that is part of a bathroom group.

I do not use an AAV unless I _have to._ You should be able to run that dry vent into a branch vent or until it reaches the stack vent or terminates outdoors.

Your WC can be 12' from the vent. 

I am trying to bear with you, but maybe watching and doing a few more rough in's will help you out more. In my opinion, a first year apprentice should be fetching tools or digging.

Good luck.


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## double45

Yeah my bad I knew I was gonna get ripped for asking that. Lesson learned. Boss is in Maine for the week vacation no cell service or I would have asked him. He hates aavs too but there all the rage here in rhode island (illegal in mass).


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## plbgbiz

A first year left alone to mind the store?


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## double45

Yes, did 2 finishes and 1 gas pipe this week. Leaks everywhere!


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## plbgbiz

Oh my.


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## crown36

double45 said:


> Yeah my bad I knew I was gonna get ripped for asking that. Lesson learned. Boss is in Maine for the week vacation no cell service or I would have asked him. He hates aavs too but there all the rage here in rhode island (illegal in mass).


 Double: I would hold off until your boss returns. If he has any type of ethics and is a legit plumber, he will be thankful you held off from running this bathroom; Not to mention you could compromise the structure when you start drilling/notching. I predict a disaster laying ahead for you, your boss and possibly the customer if you attempt to rough this bathroom. Wait for you bossman to comeback!:yes:


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## double45

Triplecrown24 said:


> Double: I would hold off until your boss returns. If he has any type of ethics and is a legit plumber, he will be thankful you held off from running this bathroom; Not to mention you could compromise the structure when you start drilling/notching. I predict a disaster laying ahead for you, your boss and possibly the customer if you attempt to rough this bathroom. Wait for you bossman to comeback!:yes:


I talked to another j man I know he helped me out with my venting issue so I'm headed out to rough it in now. They want to put the floor down tomorrow so.. I'll post a picture of this nightmare when I'm done. Boss always tells me the best way to learn is by making mistakes. And he's the real deal plumbing genius.


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## plbgbiz

double45 said:


> ....he's the real deal plumbing genius.


Oh, where to begin. Hmmm....nope., I'm not taking the bait.


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## SewerRatz

rjbphd said:


> In rare cases, I 'll use the aav to save structure damage.. btw, how far are you from Bethpage??


Pray there is no State inspectors that hang out here that might know who you really are.

I wonder how you get those AAV's to pass inspection in the local you where working in.



> http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/077008900K14800R.html
> 
> *Section 890.1480 Types of Fixture Trap Vents*
> a) Trap Vent. No trap vent shall be installed within two pipe diameters of the trap weir. (See Appendix K: Illustration N.)
> 
> b) Common Vent. A common vent, installed vertically, may be used for two fixture traps when both traps connect with a vertical waste at the same level. (See Appendix K: Illustration O.)
> 
> c) Vertical Wet Vent. A vertical wet vent may be used for two fixtures set on the same floor level, but connecting at different levels in the stack, provided the vertical drain is one (1) pipe diameter larger than the upper fixture drain and that both drains conform to Appendix A: Table I. (See Appendix K: Illustrations P and Q.)
> 
> *d) Mechanical Vents. Mechanical devices shall not be installed in lieu of vent piping.* ​


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## Will

AAV is not a mechcanical vent, atleast according to manufactures of AAV. There is no springs, just a diagram that works with air pressures


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## SewerRatz

Will said:


> AAV is not a mechcanical vent, atleast according to manufactures of AAV. There is no springs, just a diagram that works with air pressures


Still has a moving part in which by definition it is mechanical. This part of the Illinois code disallows AAV (Air Admittance Valves) by the very nature of it's operation. It only allows air in and doesn't deal with expelling air.



> *Section 890.1420 Stack Vents, Vent Stacks, Main Vents*
> 
> a) Design. A properly designed and installed venting system, in conjunction with the soil or waste system, is essential to protect trap seals and prevent siphonage, aspiration, or back pressure. The venting system shall be designed and installed to permit the admission or emission of air so that under normal and intended use the seal of any fixture trap shall never be subjected to a pneumatic pressure differential of more than a one (1) inch water column. If a trap seal is subject to loss by evaporation, means shall be provided to prevent loss of the trap seal. (See Section 890.410(f).)​


​


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## MTDUNN

double45 said:


> I talked to another j man I know he helped me out with my venting issue so I'm headed out to rough it in now. They want to put the floor down tomorrow so.. I'll post a picture of this nightmare when I'm done. Boss always tells me the best way to learn is by making mistakes. And he's the real deal plumbing genius.


This forum might need insurance just having you post here.


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## Michaelcookplum

Aav are like shark bites, don't use them unless you absolutely have to, and always in an accessible location. Like an island sink. As long as other vents are exiting the building, one aav on an island sink in my opinion is perfectly ok


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## PlumbDumber

I bet that his liability insurance agent would have a coronary if he/she knew what was going on in that shop.


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## Will

SewerRatz said:


> Still has a moving part in which by definition it is mechanical. This part of the Illinois code disallows AAV (Air Admittance Valves) by the very nature of it's operation. It only allows air in and doesn't deal with expelling air.


I agree logic says its a mechanical vent, but code and literature says its not. You ask how rj passed inspection, it's because a AAV is not classified as a mechcanical vent...


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## Redwood

plbgbiz said:


> Oh, where to begin. Hmmm....nope., I'm not taking the bait.


I always enjoy a good hookset, so I'll dangle this Gamakatsu Treble Hook in front of his face...

Double45, You indicate that you are an apprentice in Rhode Island, then say you are working independently on a 120 house development in Massachusetts where you are not registered as an apprentice... <<That doesn't even matter!

Unfortunately for you Massachusetts has one of the strictest plumbing codes in the nation and this one line from the Massachusetts Plumbing Code sez it all!



> *"It is the interpretation of this Board that that portion of the plumbing system consisting of all building drains beginning from a point ten feet outside from the inside face of the foundation wall and running into the building structure shall be installed by a licensed plumber only."*







*Fish On!*


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## SewerRatz

Will said:


> I agree logic says its a mechanical vent, but code and literature says its not. You ask how rj passed inspection, it's because a AAV is not classified as a mechcanical vent...


Let me highlight the part of the code that disallows (means not allow) an AAV or mechanical vent.



> a) Design. *A properly designed and installed venting system*, in conjunction with the soil or waste system, is essential *to protect trap seals and prevent siphonage, aspiration, or back pressure.* The *venting system shall be designed and installed to permit the admission or emission of air* so that under normal and intended use the seal of any fixture trap shall never be subjected to a pneumatic pressure differential of more than a one (1) inch water column. If a trap seal is subject to loss by evaporation, means shall be provided to prevent loss of the trap seal. (See Section 890.410(f).)​


So according to our State Plumbing Code, a properly designed and installed venting system will allow for the *admission or emission* of air. An AAV ( Air admittance Valve) only addresses the issue of admitting air into the vent system, it does not do anything for back pressure which requires the *emission* of air. So no matter if it is an AAV or a standard mechanical vent does not meet the State Plumbing Code. The State does not care if the manufactures of AAV have claims they are not a mechanical device, they still will not allow it for the other reasons I stated. Plus the State is not dumb and blind like some other code officials, they can see it is a mechanical device that still can fail.


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## double45

Redwood said:


> I always enjoy a good hookset, so I'll dangle this Gamakatsu Treble Hook in front of his face...
> 
> Double45, You indicate that you are an apprentice in Rhode Island, then say you are working independently on a 120 house development in Massachusetts where you are not registered as an apprentice... <<That doesn't even matter!
> 
> Unfortunately for you Massachusetts has one of the strictest plumbing codes in the nation and this one line from the Massachusetts Plumbing Code sez it all!
> 
> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7tJceg_ds8">YouTube Link</a>
> 
> Fish On!


I wasn't clear. Mass apprentice. Not working independently. But you're right... Here's the mess I made


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## plbgbiz

Got that done this morning eh?


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## double45

plbgbiz said:


> Got that done this morning eh?


Ah yes I actually just finished took me 2 hours... Hoax??


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## double45

plbgbiz said:


> Got that done this morning eh?


Got the glue on my hands to prove it


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## Redwood

double45 said:


> I wasn't clear. Mass apprentice. Not working independently. But you're right... Here's the mess I made


Lets review what you have said... :whistling2:



double45 said:


> Whats up fellas. *First year apprentice out of Rhode Island but working in Massachusetts. 10 months in.* Doing a lot of new construction, 120 house development. About 20 houses in so far..dont know much about the service and heating side though as I've had less experience there. Always looking to learn something new..and I've found so far theres always something new to learn. Thanks.





double45 said:


> Yeah my bad I knew I was gonna get ripped for asking that. Lesson learned. *Boss is in Maine for the week vacation no cell service or I would have asked him.* He hates aavs too but there all the rage here in rhode island (illegal in mass).





plbgbiz said:


> A first year left alone to mind the store?





double45 said:


> *Yes, did 2 finishes and 1 gas pipe this week. Leaks everywhere!*


Me thinks that BS'ers have trouble keeping their story straight...:whistling2:


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## plbgbiz

I suppose there are two possibilities...


1. Your story is a hoax. Our negative response was well deserved.

-OR-

2. Your story is true. Our negative response was well deserved.


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## PlumbDumber

Hmmmm.... The picture shows an older existing house, second floor or above. There is no access so the work would have to be done from a prone position. 2 hrs !!!. Heh Heh.


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## double45

Redwood said:


> Lets review what you have said... :whistling2:
> 
> Me thinks that BS'ers have trouble keeping their story straight...:whistling2:
> 
> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Ridj_f8rI">YouTube Link</a>


I'm not sure what my motive for lying would be I was just looking for some help from some experts in my trade. But hey It's cool man I'm not gonna get into an argument with anyone I respect your opinion and I'll leave it at that.


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## jmc12185

plbgbiz said:


> I suppose there are two possibilities...
> 
> 1. Your story is a hoax. Our negative response was well deserved.
> 
> -OR-
> 
> 2. Your story is true. Our negative response was well deserved.


Haha


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## double45

plbgbiz said:


> I suppose there are two possibilities...
> 
> 1. Your story is a hoax. Our negative response was well deserved.
> 
> -OR-
> 
> 2. Your story is true. Our negative response was well deserved.


Good point.


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## double45

PlumbDumber said:


> Hmmmm.... The picture shows an older existing house, second floor or above. There is no access so the work would have to be done from a prone position. 2 hrs !!!. Heh Heh.


2hrs with my knees on the joists yup. Not sure why that's so ridiculous


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## PlumbDumber

This brings to mind a question for you true professionals. Our code requires use of purple primer on all of our PVC joints so that the inspector can easily determine that all PVC joints were primed before being glued.

Do your codes require that ?


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## jmc12185

PlumbDumber said:


> This brings to mind a question for you true professionals. Our code requires use of purple primer on all of our PVC joints so that the inspector can easily determine that all PVC joints were primed before being glued.
> 
> Do your codes require that ?


Yes, purple primer is a must.


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## plbgbiz

PlumbDumber said:


> ...Do your codes require that ?


No primer, no license...no problem.


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## double45

PlumbDumber said:


> This brings to mind a question for you true professionals. Our code requires use of purple primer on all of our PVC joints so that the inspector can easily determine that all PVC joints were primed before being glued.
> 
> Do your codes require that ?


If you use purple primer in mass it's an indication that the work was done by a homeowner as home Depot doesn't sell clear anymore. Gotta get it at the supply house.


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## Redwood

PlumbDumber said:


> This brings to mind a question for you true professionals. Our code requires use of purple primer on all of our PVC joints so that the inspector can easily determine that all PVC joints were primed before being glued.
> 
> Do your codes require that ?


Massachusetts does not require purple primer last I knew...

No Matters....

The work being performed by Double45 is clearly beyond the scope of what is allowed for him to perform... :yes:


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## double45

Redwood said:


> The work being performed by Double45 is clearly beyond the scope of what is allowed for him to perform... :yes:


I agree with this.


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## Redwood

Redwood said:


> Massachusetts does not require purple primer last I knew...
> 
> No Matters....
> 
> The work being performed by Double45 is clearly beyond the scope of what is allowed for him to perform... :yes:





double45 said:


> I agree with this.


Soooooo..... 

What do you intend to do with the rest of your day?


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## double45

Redwood said:


> Soooooo.....
> 
> What do you intend to do with the rest of your day?


Fantasy football brother!


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## Will

SewerRatz said:


> Let me highlight the part of the code that disallows (means not allow) an AAV or mechanical vent.
> 
> So according to our State Plumbing Code, a properly designed and installed venting system will allow for the admission or emission of air. An AAV ( Air admittance Valve) only addresses the issue of admitting air into the vent system, it does not do anything for back pressure which requires the emission of air. So no matter if it is an AAV or a standard mechanical vent does not meet the State Plumbing Code. The State does not care if the manufactures of AAV have claims they are not a mechanical device, they still will not allow it for the other reasons I stated. Plus the State is not dumb and blind like some other code officials, they can see it is a mechanical device that still can fail.


Under IPC AAV are legal, some jurisdiction here though don't allow them. As long as they are installed as high as possible they rarely fail. I don't use them much except island sinks. They are 10 times better than a loop vent in that position.


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## SewerRatz

Trouble of having them on an island sink is they do not deal with pressure build up in the system. So people will get their sinks gurgling at times releasing sewer gas into the building. A properly installed Loop vent will never fail and deal with air movement properly.


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## rjbphd

SewerRatz said:


> Pray there is no State inspectors that hang out here that might know who you really are.
> 
> I wonder how you get those AAV's to pass inspection in the local you where working in.


Then why is it legal in other states with proven records?? The air different there or better?? As you know, most inspectors are limited minds and would not learn what others are doing.. I had old timer inspector allowed me to install the tried and proven loop vent at island bar..


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## SewerRatz

rjbphd said:


> Then why is it legal in other states with proven records?? The air different there or better?? As you know, most inspectors are limited minds and would not learn what others are doing.. I had old timer inspector allowed me to install the tried and proven loop vent at island bar..


It's called pay offs. If you read the plumbing code as I pointed out in past posts, AAV do not allow the emission of air. let me say that again *AAV DO NOT ALLOW THE EMISSION OF AIR* with that said it does not meet Illinois Plumbing Code. The loop vent does meet the Illinois Plumbing Code.

If you are installing AAV's in the state of Illinois you are breaking Illinois Plumbing Code and doing a disservice to your plumbing license.


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## crown36

double45 said:


> I talked to another j man I know he helped me out with my venting issue so I'm headed out to rough it in now. They want to put the floor down tomorrow so.. I'll post a picture of this nightmare when I'm done. Boss always tells me the best way to learn is by making mistakes. And he's the real deal plumbing genius.


 Are there any permits on this job? Are you going to pressure test your work? If they want the floor down tomorrow, this is not the time for any mistakes. Your boss is a real deal something, but it sure is not a genius. He sounds like a hack, to me. I do not fault you, though. However, there seems to be a few holes in your postings.


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## jmc12185

Air admittance valves will pass inspection in New York on certain things. But it's one of those cases that you have to use better judgement over following code. It just looks like someone was too lazy to vent properly, plus I've seen too many fail to ever use or trust it.


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## rjbphd

SewerRatz said:


> It's called pay offs. If you read the plumbing code as I pointed out in past posts, AAV do not allow the emission of air. let me say that again AAV DO NOT ALLOW THE EMISSION OF AIR with that said it does not meet Illinois Plumbing Code. The loop vent does meet the Illinois Plumbing Code.
> 
> If you are installing AAV's in the state of Illinois you are breaking Illinois Plumbing Code and doing a disservice to your plumbing license.


 Of cousre not... aav are never allows to emission or air.. its designed to admit air while the main stack is doing both way.. Common sense prevails everything.


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## SewerRatz

rjbphd said:


> Of cousre not... aav are never allows to emission or air.. its designed to admit air while the main stack is doing both way.. Common sense prevails everything.


 Yes but the Illinois code states "The venting system shall be designed and installed to permit the admission or emission of air" and "Mechanical Vents. Mechanical devices shall not be installed in lieu of vent piping."

So AAV are not allowed.


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## rjbphd

SewerRatz said:


> Yes but the Illinois code states "The venting system shall be designed and installed to permit the admission or emission of air" and "Mechanical Vents. Mechanical devices shall not be installed in lieu of vent piping."
> 
> So AAV are not allowed.


Is it because the plumbing board doesn't understand or refuse to understand how's the aav works as its had been over 60 years with proper installation and proven track record???
If they are illegal,, why I seen them in plumbing SUPPLY that sells only to plumbers??


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## Team BP

I'm from mass and they only way you can is use a AAV is either special permission from the local inspector or a variance from the board The mass code also has drawings that shows how to properly waste and vent multiple story buildings and you just take it from there. The way double did it doesn't look to bad it is correct by code here. We all have our own way of doing things. A lot of plumbing in other states looks really out of code to me since mass is the only state I've worked in but they have there reasons why we have our own code and don't follow a national one.


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## SewerRatz

rjbphd said:


> Is it because the plumbing board doesn't understand or refuse to understand how's the aav works as its had been over 60 years with proper installation and proven track record???
> If they are illegal,, why I seen them in plumbing SUPPLY that sells only to plumbers??


Just because a hardware store, or supply house sells them it does not make them legal to use. The plumbing code can not forbid any type of sales, but can forbid the use of items that do not meet the code.

I see bottle traps being sold, and they are not legal to use.

Tell me how many vents have you seen fail? I can tell you every AAV I came across (installed properly but still against code) has failed. First time I had a kitchen sink line that would not drain for the life of me. I rodded and jetted the line and it still wouldn't drain. But I did notice this elbow coming out of the wall near the spill level of the sink with this weird cap screwed into it. I figured I can go ahead and pull that cap and rod the line while its holding water. Once I unscrewed the AAV the sink drained properly. After I seen that I looked at the AAV and realized it was basically a mechanical vent. I ended up piping the vent properly for this person and they never had a venting issue since.

Please tell me what towns allowed you to install the AAV's so I can have a talk with those inspectors.


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## double45

I did make a mistake on that rough. I jumped up after the wet vent to roll the toilet over thereby breaking the vent. Had to cut in a twye to vent the toilet to tie into the shower vent in the ceiling.. Learned by mistake.. Won't do that again!


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## Redwood

double45 said:


> I did make a mistake on that rough. I jumped up after the wet vent to roll the toilet over thereby breaking the vent. Had to cut in a twye to vent the toilet to tie into the shower vent in the ceiling.. Learned by mistake.. Won't do that again!


So do you think that made the work legal?:whistling2:


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## double45

Redwood said:


> So do you think that made the work legal?:whistling2:


What is illegal about it? My boss is licensed master plumber in Rhode Island and mass and I performed the work under his employment. Is it because I wasn't under his direct visual supervision?


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## Will

SewerRatz said:


> Trouble of having them on an island sink is they do not deal with pressure build up in the system. So people will get their sinks gurgling at times releasing sewer gas into the building. A properly installed Loop vent will never fail and deal with air movement properly.


Install 3" to the island and you won't have a problem. Loop vents never work, they just build up with gunk.


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## SewerRatz

Will said:


> Install 3" to the island and you won't have a problem. Loop vents never work, they just build up with gunk.


 I am in a apartment for nearly 12 years and it has an island sink with a loop vent. Guess what? Never had an issue. I see 100's of loop vent lines, the vents are always fine.


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## Will

Here I see AAV all the time, they are working fine as long as installed correctly. Now almost every loop vent I come across is the filthiest cesspool I've ever seen. Grease traps are cleaner than the dead leg.


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## crown36

Will said:


> Here I see AAV all the time, they are working fine as long as installed correctly. Now almost every loop vent I come across is the filthiest cesspool I've ever seen. Grease traps are cleaner than the dead leg.


 I don't use an AAV unless I have to, however there are certain applications I will use one. I have yet to have one fail, and if it does, I can replace it in about 30 seconds. Just like everything else in the plumbing world -you may like or prefer something that I do not. Vice Versa. Not a huge fan of the AAV, and I will always try to run a dry vent, but I hate island vents even more. I will AAV those all day long!


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## crown36

double45 said:


> What is illegal about it? My boss is licensed master plumber in Rhode Island and mass and I performed the work under his employment. Is it because I wasn't under his direct visual supervision?


 YES!! Has to be "DIRECT" supervision. You have to have a licensed plumber to supervise. A journeyman would work just fine, too. You should have refused to do the rough. You're not qualified yet. Seems to me the only thing your boss is doing, is teaching you how to be a 'slop it together as fast as you can, hack!"

I straight up despise hacks! I loathe them!


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

HACK!!!! I second that motion !!!!


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## Redwood

double45 said:


> What is illegal about it? My boss is licensed master plumber in Rhode Island and mass and I performed the work under his employment. Is it because I wasn't under his direct visual supervision?


*Bingo!*

Jump into the cooler son...
You've been Hooked, Gaffed, & Landed...
We'll fillet you back at the dock...


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## rjbphd

SewerRatz said:


> Yes but the Illinois code states "The venting system shall be designed and installed to permit the admission or emission of air" and "Mechanical Vents. Mechanical devices shall not be installed in lieu of vent piping."
> 
> So AAV are not allowed.


So the code said mechical vent are not allowed, however, Studer vent are not mechical, its a pressure balanced aav... big differance here..


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## Will

Triplecrown24 said:


> I don't use an AAV unless I have to, however there are certain applications I will use one. I have yet to have one fail, and if it does, I can replace it in about 30 seconds. Just like everything else in the plumbing world -you may like or prefer something that I do not. Vice Versa. Not a huge fan of the AAV, and I will always try to run a dry vent, but I hate island vents even more. I will AAV those all day long!


I'm on the same page. Island sinks is about all I use AAVs on.


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## SewerRatz

rjbphd said:


> So the code said mechical vent are not allowed, however, Studer vent are not mechical, its a pressure balanced aav... big differance here..


Ok lets assume the State of Illinois agrees with you about an AAV, an AAV still doesn't meet the code since it doesn't allow the emission of air when there is a pressure build up in the venting system.

Lets use a kitchen sink line in a three story building. Each sink has an AAV installed and there is a vent on the main stack 20 feet away. When a sink is draining it draws in air from the AAV as it drains, and any pressure buildup below in theory is pushed though the building sewer where the sink line ties in and out the stack vent. (BTW I have seen this example first hand) Here is the issue, when the third floor double sink is full and the second floor double sink is full, and both are drained at the same time, the third floor pressure build up below the slug of water keeps the AAV on the second floor from opening. And as the water slug travels down the pipe the pressure gets so great that the first floor sink starts to gurgle. 

But here is the point the State of Illinois does not agree that AAV is just a pressure balanced device. They can see for themselves there is a part inside that moves, and it is the fact of its properly working is if this part moves when it needs to. So this moving part still can fail which in turn makes it a mechanical device. Instead of a spring keeping the device closed, it uses negative atmospheric pressure change to open the vent. Just a different means of opening the door, yet still is mechanical in operation.

Also my point is no matter what you think and say an AAV doesn't meet the Illinois Plumbing Code, which is why I keep asking for the cities that passed the installations of these valves. Oh and look at the name of an AAV (Air Admittance Valve) the word Valve alone defines this as a mechanical device.


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## plbgbiz

They are approved in Oklahoma per the IPC. And it is definitely a mechanical device.

It does not allow release of positive air pressure. It cannot (unless it malfunctions). To do so would allow sewer gas to enter the building. That is why the IPC also has this requirement:

*917.7 Vent required.* Within each plumbing system, a minimum of one stack vent or vent stack shall extend outdoors to the open air.

The theory behind the allowance of AAV's regarding positive air pressure is that positive air pressure will always have an escape elsewhere in the vent system since a VTR is ALWAYS required. AAV's are generally intended for an individual fixture, not to serve as the main (or even substantial) source of air in the vent system.

And SR is absolutely correct...AAV's can and do fail.


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## CT18

I know there are dozens of AAV's installed at Ford Field in Detroit. I also know they were installed at MGM casino hotel where we couldn't get a vent line in.


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## Will

AAV are controlled entirely by air pressure. Nothing mechanical controls them. Air pressure does....

At least that's my opinion...


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## jmc12185

Will said:


> AAV are controlled entirely by air pressure. Nothing mechanical controls them. Air pressure does....
> 
> At least that's my opinion...


If that's the case, what makes a lot of them fail? Change in air pressure?


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## Will

jmc12185 said:


> If that's the case, what makes a lot of them fail? Change in air pressure?


Yes they can fail. But it's not a mechanical failure. If a washer wears out on faucet, is that a mechanical failure also?


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## SewerRatz

Will said:


> Yes they can fail. But it's not a mechanical failure. If a washer wears out on faucet, is that a mechanical failure also?


Yes it is. Tell me if your head gasket blows on you engine, is that not a mechanical failure? 



Will said:


> AAV are controlled entirely by air pressure. Nothing mechanical controls them. Air pressure does....
> 
> At least that's my opinion...


Air pressure is the control, not a spring, different engine to achieve the same thing. Spring closes the mechanical vent air pressure opens an air admittance valve. Still has a moving part that can fail. 

An Air Admittance Valve is not a proper vent period, it doesn't allow for the emission of air during pressure build up in the DWV system.

Have a look at a cutaway of an Air Admittance Valve and tell me there is nothing mechanical about it.


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## Will

One thing that we can take away from this is neither one of us hard heads will budge lol. No it's not mechanical.

AAV is about as mechanical as a rocking chair...


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## jmc12185

Will said:


> One thing that we can take away from this is neither one of us hard heads will budge lol. No it's not mechanical.
> 
> AAV is about as mechanical as a rocking chair...


With a moving part and a potential to "break down" and malfunction, how can you consider it not mechanical? Maybe it's me but this one is a no brainer ??


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## SewerRatz

Definition of _MECHANICAL_

_a_ *:* relating to, governed by, or in accordance with the principles of mechanics <_mechanical_ energy> 

_b_ *:* relating to the quantitative relations of force and matter <_mechanical_ pressure of wind on a tower> 

Part (a) of the definition applies to the movement of the diaphragm. part (b) has to do with the atmospheric pressure that moves the diaphragm.


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## younger-plumber

SewerRatz said:


> Definition of _MECHANICAL_
> 
> _a_ *:* relating to, governed by, or in accordance with the principles of mechanics <_mechanical_ energy>
> 
> _b_ *:* relating to the quantitative relations of force and matter <_mechanical_ pressure of wind on a tower>
> 
> Part (a) of the definition applies to the movement of the diaphragm. part (b) has to do with the atmospheric pressure that moves the diaphragm.


when i go to the supply house to buy these... i ask for a mechanical vent...lol. they hand me one right over the counter no questions asked...its mechanical hahaha


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## rjbphd

jmc12185 said:


> If that's the case, what makes a lot of them fail? Change in air pressure?


No, only the air in illinois and state of Chicago will causes them to fail.


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## SewerRatz

rjbphd said:


> No, only the air in illinois and state of Chicago will causes them to fail.


 You do realize there is around dozen other states that do not allow AAV's? and around 9 other states with only partial approval? http://www.ipscorp.com/plumbing/studor/reference/approvals


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## Plumberman

State of Louisiana say its a no go...

We are under the Standard Plumbing Code.

Classified as a mechanical vent... Hence being prone to fail equals

FAIL


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## jmc12185

rjbphd said:


> No, only the air in illinois and state of Chicago will causes them to fail.


Haha. At least now I know if I ever do work in Illinois or Chicago to consider in their air.


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## crown36

WOW! This whole AAV thing has sparked such debate. Who wants to get another Union Vs Non Union thread going? That way we can bicker about something besides the AAV. How about Flat Rate Vs Hourly? That's a good one! Or we can talk PEX Vs Copper! Anyone? Anyone? *Points around room* 

-What works for me, may not for you.
-You like Pex, I hate it!
-I hate New construction, You love it!
-I think Thinwall should be prohibited, you think it's just fine.
-I use a Hole Hawg, You use a Super Hawg.
-I like Milwaukee and Dewalt, you like Ryobi and Craftsman.
-Your code allows this, mine does not.


We're all Professionals! (Least most of us are). We all have our opinions and we all have different codes to observe. I'm not a fan of the AAV either, but as long as It's ASSE 1050 or 1051, I WILL use it if I NEED to. And I do not give a rat's A$$ what anyone thinks! If you're municipality prohibits the AAV, fine! You do not have to worry about them!

When it comes down to it, we all have preference and we all have an opinion.


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## crown36

rjbphd said:


> No, only the air in illinois and state of Chicago will causes them to fail.


 LOL! You crack me up, rjbphd!


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## rjbphd

Triplecrown24 said:


> WOW! This whole AAV thing has sparked such debate. Who wants to get another Union Vs Non Union thread going? That way we can bicker about something besides the AAV. How about Flat Rate Vs Hourly? That's a good one! Or we can talk PEX Vs Copper! Anyone? Anyone? *Points around room*
> 
> -What works for me, may not for you.
> -You like Pex, I hate it!
> -I hate New construction, You love it!
> -I think Thinwall should be prohibited, you think it's just fine.
> -I use a Hole Hawg, You use a Super Hawg.
> -I like Milwaukee and Dewalt, you like Ryobi and Craftsman.
> -Your code allows this, mine does not.
> 
> We're all Professionals! (Least most of us are). We all have our opinions and we all have different codes to observe. I'm not a fan of the AAV either, but as long as It's ASSE 1050 or 1051, I WILL use it if I NEED to. And I do not give a rat's A$$ what anyone thinks! If you're municipality prohibits the AAV, fine! You do not have to worry about them!
> 
> When it comes down to it, we all have preference and we all have an opinion.


Wtf?? No folding tape or folding ruler code??


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## Letterrip

Triplecrown24 said:


> WOW! This whole AAV thing has sparked such debate. Who wants to get another Union Vs Non Union thread going? That way we can bicker about something besides the AAV. How about Flat Rate Vs Hourly? That's a good one! Or we can talk PEX Vs Copper! Anyone? Anyone? *Points around room*
> 
> -What works for me, may not for you.
> -You like Pex, I hate it!
> -I hate New construction, You love it!
> -I think Thinwall should be prohibited, you think it's just fine.
> -I use a Hole Hawg, You use a Super Hawg.
> -I like Milwaukee and Dewalt, you like Ryobi and Craftsman.
> -Your code allows this, mine does not.
> 
> We're all Professionals! (Least most of us are). We all have our opinions and we all have different codes to observe. I'm not a fan of the AAV either, but as long as It's ASSE 1050 or 1051, I WILL use it if I NEED to. And I do not give a rat's A$$ what anyone thinks! If you're municipality prohibits the AAV, fine! You do not have to worry about them!
> 
> When it comes down to it, we all have preference and we all have an opinion.


TC is the voice of reason???? What is this forum coming to???


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## crown36

Letterrip said:


> TC is the voice of reason???? What is this forum coming to???


 Yep! Can you believe that!!  I only say the things I do on here, because I love you guys!


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## crown36

double45 said:


> Got the glue on my hands to prove it
> 
> View attachment 27992


 LOL! How did this rough in turn out? New Pics? You got the water ran yet? Are you going to pre fab your drops? Or are you coming in from above?


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## Ghostmaker

SewerRatz said:


> It's called pay offs. If you read the plumbing code as I pointed out in past posts, AAV do not allow the emission of air. let me say that again *AAV DO NOT ALLOW THE EMISSION OF AIR* with that said it does not meet Illinois Plumbing Code. The loop vent does meet the Illinois Plumbing Code.
> 
> If you are installing AAV's in the state of Illinois you are breaking Illinois Plumbing Code and doing a disservice to your plumbing license.


Actually AAV do allow air to enter. The problem with them is they seal tight with positive pressure. The IPC allows AAV use. In Ohio they have become a stinking problem for the homeowner. All it takes is one sewer fly to keep them from sealing.


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## double45

Triplecrown24 said:


> LOL! How did this rough in turn out? New Pics? You got the water ran yet? Are you going to pre fab your drops? Or are you coming in from above?


Eh not that great. I screwed up the wet vent so had to tie in another individual. Lesson learned on that one. Pexd the water up through the floor. Trapped the shower from first floor ceiling after the carpenter boxed it out for me. They didn't want me super hawging any joists so that didn't help... Floor is down now and no I didn't take any more pics. All in all it works and it was a good learning experience.


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## rjbphd

double45 said:


> Eh not that great. I screwed up the wet vent so had to tie in another individual. Lesson learned on that one. Pexd the water up through the floor. Trapped the shower from first floor ceiling after the carpenter boxed it out for me. They didn't want me super hawging any joists so that didn't help... Floor is down now and no I didn't take any more pics. All in all it works and it was a good learning experience.


His so called JM not a plumber.. freaking handyman learning under Jnosh...


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## SewerRatz

Ghostmaker said:


> Actually AAV do allow air to enter. The problem with them is they seal tight with positive pressure. The IPC allows AAV use. In Ohio they have become a stinking problem for the homeowner. All it takes is one sewer fly to keep them from sealing.


 Emission of air is the opposite of admission of air. Emission is allowing the flow of positive pressure of air out of the venting system. Admission is allowing air to enter the venting system when negative pressure is present.


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## crown36

double45 said:


> Eh not that great. I screwed up the wet vent so had to tie in another individual. Lesson learned on that one. Pexd the water up through the floor. Trapped the shower from first floor ceiling after the carpenter boxed it out for me. They didn't want me super hawging any joists so that didn't help... Floor is down now and no I didn't take any more pics. All in all it works and it was a good learning experience.


I told you not to mess around, and you went ahead and did anyway. Lesson learned, and least you admit it.


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## victoryplbaz

The aav are legal here in Phoenix. Inspectors would rather have that than a island vent. Don't know why but they do. I have one used one and that was in Scottsdale, Az and it was ok by the plumbing inspector. The roof on this building was some sort of new vinyl type membrane and the repair to it was around a 1,000.00. Contractor took his case to them and they bought it and allowed me to install a 4" aav. I didn't argue with anyone.


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## KCplumber

Isn't Illinois the same state that uses cast iron underground and still uses copper air chambers? No wonder you can't use AAV's, they've only been around for 30 years :laughing:


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## wyplumber

SewerRatz said:


> You do realize there is around dozen other states that do not allow AAV's? and around 9 other states with only partial approval? http://www.ipscorp.com/plumbing/studor/reference/approvals


okay so this chart is either wrong in my case or i just can't read it. It says wyoming is upc but we are ipc and that studor vents are not approved but studor vents all the rage here for some reason. state heath inspectors love them when we remodel nursing homes do to the fact a plumbing vent must be 25' away from the fresh air on a rooftop unit


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## Ghostmaker

When they first came out in the Ohio code everyone was using them. After the state head inspector and staff studied the engineering documents from the manufacture and noticed that they were basing the usage on the old state code. Pretty much UPC they started restricting there use and added vents on the branches of an AAV. Bottom line it was no longer cheaper to use them.


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