# I just realized something



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I Think there is correlation between sewer problems and depth of the sewer ...

Up here our sewers are typically 6 ft and deeper it seems in the lower or warmer states the sewers are shallow and there seems to be more problems ..

So I figure the deeper the sewer the less problems that will occur...

What you think ?


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

Yes you are right, roots are usually kinda shallow, but colder states probably have problems with frost heave if the sewer is too close to that zone. Besides orangeburg concrete, clay have a 50 year warranty. I have done sewers that right at 50 years they just start decaying and I have done others that where over 100 and still looked real strong. But yea shallow and roots probably go hand in hand.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Around here, they range from 12" to 12 feet or more. 

They all got the same problems.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Deepest residential sewer I ever dug was 14' deep. It was full of roots??


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

I guess it also matters on the type of tree. Like willow trees grow for miles but shallow? Once I get past 4 ' deep the big roots (I think there called tap roots) are a thing of the past it is the little feeder roots I see and they don't bother me maybe the sewer but not me.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

After tapping into Lake Michigan water to this area, there was root problems at various depth.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

It seems you guys have far more problems with roots than we do ... I was thinking it could be the depth ...

Majority of our tree roots here are shallow ...of coarse it depends on the type of tree ...

Just saying it seem that you get more frequent and extreme situations than we do up here


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Haven't really thought about it but would tend to agree. Depending on tree, level of rainfall yada yada. But being in a extremely arid area like I am roots will zone in on moisture and go at it. Our average sewer is 27 to 30".


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Most of our sewers are 6 foot and deeper. Nothing but problems with roots. Age has a lot to do with it. Clay pipe is very susceptible to root penetration and we have lots of old clay here.


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## Plumbducky (Jun 12, 2010)

Our sewers are anywhere from 5' and deeper. They are clay, cast, and pvc. All have there issues and some of the problems are installer errors, settling, and material just breaking down and failing.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

We average 3' to 12' deep sewers, and depending on installers, and type of materials some have tons of roots others have hardly any. 

As for clay it depends, the older clay sewers where they used oakum, wet cement with extra lime added to it, then followed up by a stiff mix and patted in with a board, those sewers hardly ever have roots in them as long as the bell and spigot are socketed properly. Some installers like to get an offset with the clay pipe by socketing the pipe in a slight offset, these joints gets tons of roots.

Then some mastermind came out with slip seal joints for clay pipe. This is a tar gasket in the bell, and you put a liquid tar on the spigot end and bell and push the pipe together. (lots of this in Woodridge IL) Roots entered every joint with ease.

Plastic pipe has less joints so you might get lucky and not get roots. I had a lady that had a few bad spots in her clay sewer, needed to be rodded every two years. She hired a guy to replace her whole sewer from the house to the curb with PVC Schedule 40. Not even a year went by her sewer was infested with roots at every joint and needed to be rodded yearly. Not sure what happened with her problems after the second time I had to rod her new sewer. I think she got the guy to dig it up and put in all cast iron. I think the issue was he used sand as the bedding around the PVC pipe. I always used #8 limestone with screenings, never had a recall on my installs.

Well I can right a book on what I think, but I know depth has not to much to do with root intrusion, its more the material and how it was installed.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> We average 3' to 12' deep sewers, and depending on installers, and type of materials some have tons of roots others have hardly any.
> 
> As for clay it depends, the older clay sewers where they used oakum, wet cement with extra lime added to it, then followed up by a stiff mix and patted in with a board, those sewers hardly ever have roots in them as long as the bell and spigot are socketed properly. Some installers like to get an offset with the clay pipe by socketing the pipe in a slight offset, these joints gets tons of roots.
> 
> ...


I think the pvc was installed without primer and glue... only pvc pipe I seen here was shd 35/26 with gasketed hub.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> I think the pvc was installed without primer and glue... only pvc pipe I seen here was shd 35/26 with gasketed hub.


Yeah it's no way it was sched 40 solvent welded.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> It seems you guys have far more problems with roots than we do ... I was thinking it could be the depth ...
> 
> Majority of our tree roots here are shallow ...of coarse it depends on the type of tree ...
> 
> Just saying it seem that you get more frequent and extreme situations than we do up here


It has to do with the frost line the tree roots have to grow through
Up in Alaska if you bump into a tree with a truck it will
most likely fall over because the roots can't grow
through the tundra and when they fall over the roots are in a ball somewhat like when you buy rose bush's


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

Here in Texas the clay soils shift with moisture and dryness and this is what causes most of our problems here. If a break in the pipe allows moisture into the soil the trees will find it and destroy the pipe or clog the sewer. Here in Texas if we were to place an expansion joint every 10 feet I think we have way fewer problems. Of course then I would make a lot less money.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> We average 3' to 12' deep sewers, and depending on installers, and type of materials some have tons of roots others have hardly any.
> 
> As for clay it depends, the older clay sewers where they used oakum, wet cement with extra lime added to it, then followed up by a stiff mix and patted in with a board, those sewers hardly ever have roots in them as long as the bell and spigot are socketed properly. Some installers like to get an offset with the clay pipe by socketing the pipe in a slight offset, these joints gets tons of roots.
> 
> ...


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## sburntx74 (Aug 13, 2012)

Interesting. Both schedule 40 and sand bedding are within code here. I see breaks primarily on PVC attracting roots and generally nowhere else unless improperly installed. Clay and asbestos concrete pipe make it 30 to 40 years. Cast iron varies 20 to 40 years. I've seen some look like new at 40 years, and some at the point of collapse in 20. (Soil conditions and chemicals I'm guessing).


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## 1929chrysler (Jul 10, 2012)

Well I can right a book on what I think, but I know depth has not to much to do with root intrusion, its more the material and how it was installed.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Here in Cleveland the average depth is 7-8 ft deep. I've seen sewers over 14 feet deep that have massive root intrusion at each joint. If a joint is leaking the roots will gravitate to where ever the source of the water is coming from regardless of the depth. While I'm not a horticulturalist, I suppose a lot of it has to do with the genetics of the tree itself and how deep that particular root system will go. As for you guys up there in Canada,(Old School) it sounds like Canadian trees don't go deep or Canadians build better sewers!?


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## sburntx74 (Aug 13, 2012)

1929chrysler said:


> Well I can right a book on what I think, but I know depth has not to much to do with root intrusion, its more the material and how it was installed.


I agree. Here in Cleveland the average depth is 7-8 ft deep. I've seen sewers over 14 feet deep that have massive root intrusion at each joint. If a joint is leaking the roots will gravitate to where ever the source of the water is coming from regardless of the depth. While I'm not a horticulturalist, I suppose a lot of it has to do with the genetics of the tree itself and how deep that particular root system will go. As for you guys up there in Canada,(Old School) it sounds like Canadian trees don't go deep or Canadians build better sewers!?[/QUOTE]

Sewer lines in Texas or generally 12" to 36" with an average tap depth of between 36" to 48". I think install and perhaps the glue primer application has a lot to do with it. Blue rain or shine glue and purple primer are commonly used here. I've yet to see a sewer yard line with more than two or three penetrations. Typical intrusions are at the tap transition, cracks, or test tees.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

sburntx74 said:


> I agree. Here in Cleveland the average depth is 7-8 ft deep. I've seen sewers over 14 feet deep that have massive root intrusion at each joint. If a joint is leaking the roots will gravitate to where ever the source of the water is coming from regardless of the depth. While I'm not a horticulturalist, I suppose a lot of it has to do with the genetics of the tree itself and how deep that particular root system will go. As for you guys up there in Canada,(Old School) it sounds like Canadian trees don't go deep or Canadians build better sewers!?


Sewer lines in Texas or generally 12" to 36" with an average tap depth of between 36" to 48". I think install and perhaps the glue primer application has a lot to do with it. Blue rain or shine glue and purple primer are commonly used here. I've yet to see a sewer yard line with more than two or three penetrations. Typical intrusions are at the tap transition, cracks, or test tees.[/QUOTE]

Thought glued joints are not allowed... only rubber gasket joints allowed for 'swing joint' movement.


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## sburntx74 (Aug 13, 2012)

Here in Austin, round rock Georgetown and cedar park on a building sewer, glue joints are allowed except in right of way (tap). If in ROW, must be gasketed.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

sburntx74 said:


> Here in Austin, round rock Georgetown and cedar park on a building sewer, glue joints are allowed except in right of way (tap). If in ROW, must be gasketed.


Now why is that? Is the earth different from private property vs in row?


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Now why is that? Is the earth different from private property vs in row?


Gubbment property is special !


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## sburntx74 (Aug 13, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Now why is that? Is the earth different from private property vs in row?


Lol well very good question. But I think it simply allows them to disconnect and connect more easily as services are upgraded or if there is an issue on the municipalities side.


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