# fines for faucets with lead in them



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I noticed that our plumbing supply house was getting rid of all Delta faucets real cheap and they say at the end of the year they will probably scrap them for the brass....

the story I have been told by my plumbing supply house is they are dumping all their faucets over the next few months as quickly as possible because of a new lead-free brass laws that takes affect as of 2014. 

They claim if any faucet with lead 
is sold or installed after the first of the year containing lead in them that their is a huge fine if you are caught.... $25,000.. 

This amount seems extreme to me and and I wonder if it is true or were the guys at the supply house just blowing some serious smoke up my ass???? 


I would love to get my hands on a whole bunch of 1400 and 1700 faucets from my general area just for the cartriges... and buy them all on the down low at the end of the year...before they are all thrown into the dumpster...

has anyone else heard about this??

thank you in advance


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Same thing at my supply house, that fine does seem pretty steep though.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Jan 4th no more lead.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

The no lead laws are stupid take the lead out of brass and make it harder on us. What happens when you by something from over seas? Do they really think that the lead content in brass is high enough to hurt you? Then what are we going to do about the water source? They can regulate us into oblivion !


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

We are hearing the same thing here. I believe the cut off is January 13th 2014. 

The local Winnelson will not accepts returns on anything that does not comply with the future lead law.

I was in Star Mechanical and seen some of the new white handle lead free ball valves made by Nibco, they had been installed and removed. A guy had bought them and pre-fabbed a boiler arrangement for the county jail. He set everything and only had to sweat 2 joints. He turned the water on and it leaked at each and every ball valve.

I don't know about other manufactures but Nibco says any of their new lead free ball valves 1 1/2 and above have to be fluxed with Oatey 95. Other fluxes such as Oatey 5 heat up and flow out of the fitting at too low of a temperature.

Just something to keep on mind if you end up some white handled Nibco ball valves.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I cant find anything about it on google
but according to my supply house , no one
wants to be the "poster boy" or the first company
that the government makes an example of.. so they are all 
falling into line... California will probably make a huge deal out of this law that they have crammed down everyones throat.. 

they calim "Lead inspectors" will have a tool that can detect the presence of lead in any brass product in a matter of seconds

I assume it will be enforced by different municipalities
in every stateand perhaps the fines will be levied to what ever each area deems suitable to fit the crime.... up to 25k


so where is Redwood when you need him to 
answer my question...

come down from the mountain with your tablets Moses


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

I just looked it up, the new law goes into effect in Arkansas December 2nd 2013.

The new definition of the federal safe water act wil go into effect Jan. 1 2014

There is still not much info:

*Legal Implications*


States responsible for enforcement through state or local plumbing codes or other appropriate means
Illegal to introduce into commerce or install any potable water product that does not comply
Non-compliance may result in fines, installed product removal costs, lawsuits by private parties or government agency
I have heard the new Arkansas law is confusing in regard to what has to comply. They say anything for potable use/drinking water must comply. 

A mixing valve does not have to comply if it does not serve a kitchen sink, so the lav sink were people brush their teeth does not have to comply?

A service line 3" or above does not have to comply.

It's complicated, I'm waiting to see the actual laws in front of me. The best course of action would be totally lead free after the law is in effect.

Somebody gonna get raped over this new law.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

So we go totally lead free and they test the water and what will they find,lead. Lead is a natural element it's contact needs to be minimized but the government will try to make you think you can get rid of it. Even the source has lead in it where do they think lead comes from? I have heard so many liberal yuppies talk about ammo contaminating the ground,hello that is where it comes from! Minimize the amount yes but you cannot have a lead free environment it is not posable .


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

I don't think they will be testing the water. They will be testing the actual brass fittings.

Lead-free water would require cities and water departments around the country to start removing and replacing all of their meters and and valves.

That's not going to happen.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

PlungerJockey said:


> I don't think they will be testing the water. They will be testing the actual brass fittings.
> 
> Lead-free water would require cities and water departments around the country to start removing and replacing all of their meters and and valves.
> 
> That's not going to happen.


Then why make a law that is half ass.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

wyrickmech said:


> Then why make a law that is half ass.


:confused1:

I don't know, same reason they make all the other half-assed laws.

It all started in Californa. I guess the train of thought is, stop the new installation of leaded brass. As meters and water distribution infastructure fail, replace them. In about 150 years all the water services will have been upgraded to lead-free brass.

Don't worry I seen a study awhile back that linked the increase in cases of Alheimer's disease to copper water distribution pipe. I think before that they blamed it on aluminum baking pans. It's job security. 

As soon as the testing equipment becomes affordable/available companies will be offering free inspections of homes to rid them of lead in the plumbing system.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

PlungerJockey said:


> We are hearing the same thing here. I believe the cut off is January 13th 2014.
> 
> The local Winnelson will not accepts returns on anything that does not comply with the future lead law.
> 
> ...


I use no korode on them with a new worthington 97/3 solder. It flowed great


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I use no korode on them with a new worthington 97/3 solder. It flowed great


Regular Oatey #5 will work with the 3/4 stuff, the issue is with the larger valves. Valves from 1 1/2 up.

The No-Korode may work on the bigger stuff, I'm just telling you what the folks at Nibco are saying. Like I said the issue is with the high temp needed to heat the new brass. They will send out a free test kit with fittings so companies can test their soldering method.

At this time Nibco does not mention any specific flux for the larger sizes of lead-free brass fittings in their literature.
http://www.nibco.com/Lead-Free/Resources/

The 1 1/2 ball valves that were at the supply house, looked like no flux had been used. Some of the valves had very little solder at all in the them. I know the guy that did the work. I'm surprised he missed it, he's been around for awhile. I don't know what type of flux he used, I know it didn't work.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

PlungerJockey said:
 

> :confused1:
> 
> I don't know, same reason they make all the other half-assed laws.
> 
> ...


There is nothing that comes out of California that is good. Heck there is lead pipe water services still around here.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I use no korode on them with a new worthington 97/3 solder. It flowed great


And where is the drain pipe for that T&P...... you know better. Alot of these hacks like younger plumber look up to you.:thumbsup:


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

PlungerJockey said:


> And where is the drain pipe for that T&P...... you know better. Alot of these hacks like younger plumber look up to you.:thumbsup:


My apprentice runs the t&p ... It's good practice for him


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

Tell him to step it up, he's making you look bad.


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## jc-htownplumber (Feb 29, 2012)

You here in houston they are doing the same thing thank you California


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

I should backcharge California for all the valves I will have to scrap next year


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

MTDUNN said:


> I should backcharge California for all the valves I will have to scrap next year


You can still use them, just not for water used for consumption. Lead ball valves should be ok for anything hydronic or irrigation past the RPZ.

Check your local laws. It's still early and nobody will really know until someone is maded an example.

You should definitly be trying to get rid of any pre-lead law faucets or prv's you have.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

Yup! Take it from a Cali plumber. They shoved SB1953 down our throats, all it did was cost everybody money. Any valve and or fixture sold in California which will be used on any portion of a potable distribution system is labeled with an LF cast into the product. Last year building inspectors did start inspecting all shut off valves, regulators backflow valves, etc. not long after it hit one of our techs installed a 2" double check detector, for a commercial building, two days later the water district called and said our double check is sitting at their shop and they replaced the check themselves and charged our customer.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> Yup! Take it from a Cali plumber. They shoved SB1953 down our throats, all it did was cost everybody money. Any valve and or fixture sold in California which will be used on any portion of a potable distribution system is labeled with an LF cast into the product. Last year building inspectors did start inspecting all shut off valves, regulators backflow valves, etc. not long after it hit one of our techs installed a 2" double check detector, for a commercial building, two days later the water district called and said our double check is sitting at their shop and they replaced the check themselves and charged our customer.


Years ago when this all started there was a study that stated if you drank 10gal of water for 100years you may be at risk of lead poisoning. Sense then I have not see the report again just mentions of a report that said it would be bad for you.they shoved that one down our throat to. The next thing will be purifiers to eliminate all lead or closing all wells that have trace lead content,what they won't tell you is all wells have trace amounts. It is a way to control the water source then tax the amount we consume.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Give this a read. http://www.vdh.state.va.us/ODW/docu...d Levels Drinking Water System Components.pdf

and this

Water EPA.GOV

When I was a Delta Show, they explained to us the reason they are using built in pex water supplies is to meet the new lead percentage standards. This is why the pex supplies are so long and they tell you not to shorten them. If you shorten them, then you just changed the total percentage of lead to the rest of the faucet.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

SewerRatz said:


> Give this a read. http://www.vdh.state.va.us/ODW/documents/2013/pdf/UL%20Summary%20Lead%20Levels%20Drinking%20Water%20System%20Components.pdf
> 
> and this
> 
> ...


While it is a very interesting article it is lying about the lead levels in the source water. Just think about it where does lead come from? What does our water filter threw? If you can pick up trace amounts from trace amounts in brass what do you think it's doing when it filters threw 500 feet of pure lead in a vein of the stuff in the ground? It is just another control technique .


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

wyrickmech said:


> Then why make a law that is half ass.


If any body doesn't think that our government isn't a tyranny, on it's way to a dictatorship is blind. It didn't start with Obama, it has been going on since the Civil War. The fed gov. is taking control over aspect of our lives. Even a far lefty like Noam Chomsky is quoted as saying, "the natural enemy of government is it's citizens."


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

EPA is a joke. If anyone has a chance, watch Gasland and Gasland II on HBO. 

They don't want lead in brass in California, but it's ok to frack slate and release methane in the water right on the San Andreas fault line.

Anyone in Texas, Colorado and Pennsylvania already knows about it


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

MTDUNN said:


> EPA is a joke. If anyone has a chance, watch Gasland and Gasland II on HBO.
> 
> They don't want lead in brass in California, but it's ok to frack slate and release methane in the water right on the San Andreas fault line.
> 
> Anyone in Texas, Colorado and Pennsylvania already knows about it


Maybe we could figure out a way to light the gas off so calf could float off by its self. That way it would leave us alone.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

wyrickmech said:


> Maybe we could figure out a way to light the gas off so calf could float off by its self. That way it would leave us alone.


That maybe one of the best ideas I've seen posted here.


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## plumbing ninja (Jan 15, 2012)

I thought lead free would be a good thing for your economy? 
Stops the cheap Chinese crap coming in and protects local manufacture!
Minimises one of the risks of miscarriage and birth defects for pregnant woman?

Wasn't it lead in pewter mugs that killed so many before their 40's in the old days of horses n carts (along with the plague, potato blight etc)???


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Most of our foundries are shut down by cheap Chinese imports flooding the market. If the ChiComs don't make it, we don't have it. I am sure that the onus will be on the installer, not the non-compliant ChiCom faucet makers if a faucet or valve contains lead. Hell, they put lead in the children's toys they ship here, poison in the powdered baby formula they sell us. They could give a rat's arse about our laws.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

In 20 years they will discover the plastic faucets replacing the brass ones are worse for you.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

plumbing ninja said:


> I thought lead free would be a good thing for your economy?
> Stops the cheap Chinese crap coming in and protects local manufacture!
> Minimises one of the risks of miscarriage and birth defects for pregnant woman?
> 
> Wasn't it lead in pewter mugs that killed so many before their 40's in the old days of horses n carts (along with the plague, potato blight etc)???


That was a large amount of lead. It was almost like chewing lead paint the amount of lead exposer you are talking about is very minimal. The first study with 50/50 solder was like ten gallons a day for 100 years would possibly elevate your chances for lead poisoning. The thought that it will be good for American workers is a Nobel thought but we have very few foundry s so cost would be high and product would be scarce. The protection of the local manufacture was gone when NAFTA was sighted by Clinton. We have been losing factory's ever since.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Feel good law is all it is. 

Wonder if the guy in Alabama is worried about his inventory value?


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