# Bradford White; No need to complicate



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

I have been complaining to wholesaler that the Icon Gas valve was an unneeded complication. I was told they were adding features to make the water heater better. If someone else has presented this information then disregard this message.

http://www.bradfordwhite.com/iconAccessMovie.asp

I think these kinds of add on are a bunch of horse$hit. Most people I know don't notice any of there plumbing appliances unless something has gone wrong. I will only speak for my area of service, these new features will not sell. People around here already complain about the price of the heater install. 

I hope Bradford White has not made a mistake by doing this.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

_"This is your water heater -_
_ This is your water heater on steroids!"_

Yeh, I don't know what to make of that. Could be alright but ever since they began messing with the good ol' AWH (Flame guard, anti-siphon and flow control fittings, etc) it's been nothing but a headache for plumbers, DIYers and homeowners alike, so I remain skeptical.

I gotta see these in the field before I decide on thumbs up or thumbs down.


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## rex (Jun 13, 2008)

i bought 4 bradfords the other day only 1 had the new control neat idea but all its gonna do is complicate stuff


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

when you think about it, Complicating stuff realling works to our benifit. It will be more likely they will need a plumber. We just need to stay on topof the new stuff.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*no it dont....*



Plumber Jim said:


> when you think about it, Complicating stuff realling works to our benifit. It will be more likely they will need a plumber. We just need to stay on topof the new stuff.


My Bradford White supplier just took me out to lunch last week to tout all the great things this new valve can do....

and he showed me the new valves that can be wired into the system to shut off the water ,,, and how it can call the alarm company if their is a leak......and who gives a rats ass??

*It is a water heater to heat water*, its not going on the damn space shuttle... if someone specifically wants to tinker with one then sell them this valve with all the bells and whistles to go with it.....* dont froce everyone to have to go to it... *

 people are gonna get pissed when they cant go out and make repairs to the valve some day themselves...
.

Also....the biggest problem is the fact that the body of the valve is plastic screwed ito the metal tank...and in time it will finally get brittle and snap off......

if they are so proud of that new plastic, then why not get rid of the brass drain valve on the side of the heater and repalce it also with plastic???

*becasue it caused them problems years back...*

 
this wont be as bad as whirlpools reverse threaded thermocoupling, but I get the feeling it will be difficult to explain to someone that a new *thermo-pile assembly* can only be gotten by plumbers.......


they have made this too complicated and it should only be sold as an option for someone that wants the extras....


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

I've installed two . Hey ,,,it's a gas valve ,,, pretty it up all you want Brad White ,, JUST MAKE SURE IT WORKS AND LASTS !!!


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I have said the same to my Braford rep.

Bradford is (WAS?) a good company, with a good product. We have NEVER had a problem with a gas valve. LEAVE WELL ENOUGH ALONE. If someone wants to play with thier water heater from thier blackberry, seel it as an upgrade. 

US COMMON FOLK JUST WANT A QUALITY PRODUCT, EASY TO REPAIR AND MAINTAIN.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*Thats Why I Am Useing Rheem*



RealLivePlumber said:


> I have said the same to my Braford rep.
> 
> Bradford is (WAS?) a good company, with a good product. We have NEVER had a problem with a gas valve. LEAVE WELL ENOUGH ALONE.* If someone wants to play with thier water heater from thier blackberry, seel it as an upgrade. *
> 
> US COMMON FOLK JUST WANT A QUALITY PRODUCT, EASY TO REPAIR AND MAINTAIN.


 
my supply house is a little leerey of the bradfords too...according to the owner of the place... they are takeing a wait and see atitude......

I am just keeping my eye on them and keeping a good supply of Rheem units in stock...they have the simple and easy to fix valve...

*I have yet to have anyone want to look at the temp of thier water heaters from their black berry phones either... ...* 

honestly if I had a customer who got
" half a woody" cause of all these special bells and whistles they can install on their heaters, I dont think I really want to deal witht he guy....

the fellow would be a nut and certainly in the category of "high maintaince"

This all started in california 
and it is the only place that this seems to be getting excited about it

I hope that this dont blow up in their faces.....


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

We've been selling them for a year, had a couple bad thermopiles to change, so keep a couple on hand. 

A couple threw error codes for insufficient air supply. No biggie, just reset the heater and move on.

The gas valve is designed as a on-size-fits all design. You slide the old one off, slide the new one on. No need to unthread from the heater and hope you have the right length shank.

And sorry my state is responsible for the rest of you having to use these.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

JK949 said:


> We've been selling them for a year, had a couple bad thermopiles to change, so keep a couple on hand.
> 
> A couple threw error codes for insufficient air supply. No biggie, just reset the heater and move on.
> 
> ...



I assume you had to eat the cost of the repairs? If so, this is part of my complaint. Everybody else gets to pass the buck, but we look like a-holes. Not to mention the loss of revenue. One hour spent fixing the new BW is one hour not making money.


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## NickTex (Jun 18, 2008)

We replace 40-70 water heaters per month with Bradford Whites and I am not nearly as big of a fan of them now as I was before the ICON. We have had to repair and service brand new heaters and had one customer insist on us replacing his 3 day old heater with "anything that doesn't have that ridiculous piece of $#@! on it!" I'm really disappointed with this change so far.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

NickTex said:


> We replace 40-70 water heaters per month with Bradford Whites and I am not nearly as big of a fan of them now as I was before the ICON. We have had to repair and service brand new heaters and had one customer insist on us replacing his 3 day old heater with "anything that doesn't have that ridiculous piece of $#@! on it!" I'm really disappointed with this change so far.


That's a lot of freaking water heaters. I guess that would make you the expert. What is the ratio of problem 1 in 25 etc...?
What are the most common problems you are having with them?
Will you switch brands?


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

I was working in an old 6 unit apartment building today. All apts are 1 bedroom, and right now it is vacant, because city took away C of O.
The owner has heat turned down to 50deg. The water heater is a residential 50 gallon Brad. White approx 10 to 12 yrs old, & city is requiring another one be put in. 
My point is I turned off the gas about 9am, to do some pipe work, {the heater is set on normal temp setting for cleaning purposes}, I turned the gas back on about 4pm, lit the pilot on heater, turned on, & burner still did not come on. That heater sat in 50deg temp, for more than 7hrs, and never had to fire up once. All that hoopla they are going to try and sell you to save energy is worthless. 
I can just see myself selling one of these supposed energy saving devices, and then I can see myself spending time, energy, and gasoline, going on call backs.
As 1 person said, keep it simple, keep customer and contractor happy:thumbup:


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## NickTex (Jun 18, 2008)

Indiana Plumber said:


> That's a lot of freaking water heaters. I guess that would make you the expert. What is the ratio of problem 1 in 25 etc...?
> What are the most common problems you are having with them?
> Will you switch brands?


1 in 30 or 1 in 35 is probably pretty accurate and I'll have to do some checking to see when we first started getting them in stock to know exactly how many of the ICONs we've installed. I'm trying to be patient and see if some of the kinks get worked out, don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We've been using BW for the last 9 years and I really like them, but I'm starting to see that other brands may have caught up to their level. I just wish they would have left well enough alone. 

One of the most annoying things is that by the time we get to a job to check on one that isn't working the diagnostic light is no longer blinking. Kind of useless in my opinion.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

NickTex said:


> 1 in 30 or 1 in 35 is probably pretty accurate and I'll have to do some checking to see when we first started getting them in stock to know exactly how many of the ICONs we've installed. I'm trying to be patient and see if some of the kinks get worked out, don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We've been using BW for the last 9 years and I really like them, but I'm starting to see that other brands may have caught up to their level. I just wish they would have left well enough alone.
> 
> One of the most annoying things is that by the time we get to a job to check on one that isn't working the diagnostic light is no longer blinking. Kind of useless in my opinion.


 Thats new technology being tested on the contractors dime.
When you said that the diagnostic light was no longer blinking, was the heater then working, or was still cold? With most of these issues you have, does the heater go out and stay out, or is it sporatic? Those sporatic ones are the the hardest to find, especially if diagnostic light doesn't show history. :furious:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*had the same thing happen*



NickTex said:


> One of the most annoying things is that by the time we get to a job to check on one that isn't working the diagnostic light is no longer blinking. Kind of useless in my opinion.


Installed a new one and it would not fire up so what good is the diagnostic? 

We could not get parts yet so I was lucky that we were near a supply house and we just got a new one... we use quick connects on teh water supply lines so it was faster to cjust change it out to save the rest of the day.....


?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*lot of grumbling out there*

had a customer today that i sold a 40 gallon gas heater to

he says to me he has been looking on the net and found out about al the new stuff that Bradford White is doing and
he wants none of it...

he found all the grumbing and complaints that some have about the Icon valve , so I am putting him in a Rheem tomorrow...

I get the feeling that this could become a trend, 
then a sunami if the valve becomes trouble
so I am keeping an extra few Rheem in stock .


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> had a customer today that i sold a 40 gallon gas heater to
> 
> he says to me he has been looking on the net and found out about al the new stuff that Bradford White is doing and
> he wants none of it...
> ...



Do you know what he found? Anything specific, or where he found it.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*probably right here*



Indiana Plumber said:


> Do you know what he found? Anything specific, or where he found it.


its probably found right on sites like this one...

their are probably a couple of dozen of these kind of 
sites out there and the story is about the same on 
all of them.....

installed two Rheems today.....a 40 and a 50...


they seem to heat the water just fine even without that pretty green light blinking at me to tell me its working:laughing::laughing:

.


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## SummPlumb (Feb 19, 2010)

I have no beef with them. I am all for making them impossible to fix for homeowners and "handymen" trying to be plumbers. 

Technology has invaded plumbing in the last few years and it kinda excites me.


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## 303 Mechanical (Sep 30, 2009)

Indiana Plumber said:


> I have been complaining to wholesaler that the Icon Gas valve was an unneeded complication. I was told they were adding features to make the water heater better. If someone else has presented this information then disregard this message.
> 
> http://www.bradfordwhite.com/iconAccessMovie.asp
> 
> ...


I think everyone is getting a little overly excited about the big Bradford White Change. My thoughts were with yours, if its not broke, don't fix it. My company has installed many of these since their launch with almost no problems - just a learning curve in the beginning. At the very least, ITS JUST A GAS VALVE! - what you chose to do with the valve is up to you. As for California causing this change, I was told that wasn't the case. This was Bradford's way of introducing the new technology into the field. Testing it one of the largest economies in the world. Some of you had said, no one wants these bells and whistles. That's a bold statement. We install about 20 heaters per month on average pre-BRadford & ICON. Its increased to over 30 since the ICON launch in Novemebr. Has every homeowner gone with the packages? Only 6 so far. Still those that don't go with the packages at the time of install in the beginning have the option of doing so later down the line. Bradford White didn't invent any of this technology. The just incorporated it into one system. Some contractors offer upgrades like this already anyway. Every phone call we take from homeowners, we make sure we know as much about other water heaters as we do about Bradford White - because Bradford White allows you to do more, has an Intelligent Control at no extra cost, is made in the USA, and will never be available in home Depot. No good, better or best heater with Bradford. They all are the best, only available through the trade. 

SO - relax. Keep in mind, Honeywell's name is all over this system. A name the that is recognized by the public. You have three choices for gas valves. Robert Shaw, White Rodgers and Honeywell. Either educate yourself about new technology, because that's life, or stay with the norm, while others continue to pull a head. Our business is growing since switching to Bradford White. 

BW makes a great heater....


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

303 Mechanical said:


> I think everyone is getting a little overly excited about the big Bradford White Change. My thoughts were with yours, if its not broke, don't fix it. My company has installed many of these since their launch with almost no problems - just a learning curve in the beginning. At the very least, ITS JUST A GAS VALVE! - what you chose to do with the valve is up to you. As for California causing this change, I was told that wasn't the case. This was Bradford's way of introducing the new technology into the field. Testing it one of the largest economies in the world. Some of you had said, no one wants these bells and whistles. That's a bold statement. We install about 20 heaters per month on average pre-BRadford & ICON. Its increased to over 30 since the ICON launch in Novemebr. Has every homeowner gone with the packages? Only 6 so far. Still those that don't go with the packages at the time of install in the beginning have the option of doing so later down the line. Bradford White didn't invent any of this technology. The just incorporated it into one system. Some contractors offer upgrades like this already anyway. Every phone call we take from homeowners, we make sure we know as much about other water heaters as we do about Bradford White - because Bradford White allows you to do more, has an Intelligent Control at no extra cost, is made in the USA, and will never be available in home Depot. No good, better or best heater with Bradford. They all are the best, only available through the trade.
> 
> SO - relax. Keep in mind, Honeywell's name is all over this system. A name the that is recognized by the public. You have three choices for gas valves. Robert Shaw, White Rodgers and Honeywell. Either educate yourself about new technology, because that's life, or stay with the norm, while others continue to pull a head. Our business is growing since switching to Bradford White.
> 
> BW makes a great heater....


 whirlpool has sold a heater at lowes with the honeywell valve like this almost exact same for years.


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## 303 Mechanical (Sep 30, 2009)

Plumber Jim said:


> whirlpool has sold a heater at lowes with the honeywell valve like this almost exact same for years.


Here are some of the differences between the ICON and the Whirlpool Honeywell that is good to know when you are competing against Lowes that we were made aware of. It seems Lowes charges more for these units too. $500 for a 40 gallon gas. Keep in mind there are pretty much only three gas valve manufacturers. RobertShaw, White Rodgers and Honeywell. 



Bradford ICON 
ICON standard on models up to 100 gallons – standardized parts, less inventory
*Whirlpool*
Available only on 40 gal & 50 gal 12 year warranty models

Bradford White ICON
Single immersion well with two internal sensors. Control and gas valve integral and mounted in conventional spud – tighter differential more hot water
*Whirlpool*
Two surface mount sensors remotely mounted. Control and gas valve integral and mounted to blind spud.

Bradford White ICON
High strength composite immersion well will resist installation abuse
*Whirlpool*
Composite bracket

Bradford White ICON
Sensors are replaceable with control cover removed – faster service
*Whirlpool*
Sensors behind jacket and insulation

Bradford White ICON
High output thermopile – Built to provided the highest output possible for longest life
*Whirlpool*
Standard output thermopile 

Bradford White ICON
Green LED – no homeowner complaints about misdiagnosed faults
*Whirlpoo*l
Red LED – generally seen as a fault condition

Bradford White ICON
Platinum Cover – BWC only look
*Whirlpool*
Black Cover – Whirlpool and Kenmore

Bradford White ICON
Proprietary software to increase first hour supply and maintain EF rating – more hot water
*Whirlpool*
Proprietary software to increase EF rating

Bradford White ICON
Proprietary software to eliminate false pilot failures
*Whirlpool*
Standard Honeywell flame response software

Bradford White ICON
Proprietary software to decrease pilot signal recognition time – faster start-up
*Whirlpool*
Standard Honeywell flame response software

Bradford White ICON
Communications enabled – Connection for digital input and output signals – remote monitoring, additional add-on features possible
*Whirlpool*
No communication capability

Bradford White ICON
Modular accessory packages available
*Whirlpool*
No accessory packages

Bradford White ICON
Replaces existing Robertshaw and White Rogers controls – reduced service part inventory
*Whirlpool*
Not interchangeable with existing controls


Just like there are only a few gas valves to choose from, the same goes for water heaters themselves. Bradford does a good job at separating themselves.

Rheem
AO Smith
American Standard 
Bradford White


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## plumb4fun (Feb 18, 2009)

Well, 303 mechanical; I wish the Bradfords were only sold to the trade; I buy mine through the local supply houses, but they sell them to the local Ace Hardware stores for homeowners and handyman hacks.:whistling2:


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## 303 Mechanical (Sep 30, 2009)

Yeah, there's plenty of that going on but impossible to stop. There's places that sell commercial water heaters online! Thats scary! At least BW does what they can to support the trade when it leaves thier factory unlike others. That means something. It would be impossible to police anything beyond that.


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## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

The one thing that shocked me was Bradford White used to be carried by only one of the wholesalers I go to, our main one. Now they have pissed off them and decided to whore themselves out to every wholesaler recently (3 others), who now all carry them. So they brought in Rheem tanks in spite of them and carry Bradford White still, but push Rheem now.


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## 303 Mechanical (Sep 30, 2009)

Scott K said:


> The one thing that shocked me was Bradford White used to be carried by only one of the wholesalers I go to, our main one. Now they have pissed off them and decided to whore themselves out to every wholesaler recently (3 others), who now all carry them. So they brought in Rheem tanks in spite of them and carry Bradford White still, but push Rheem now.


Yeah, but like I said. It has to be put into perspective. BW is still the little guy. Think of all the distributors Rheem and AO have through Home Depot, Lowes, Ace and True Value (retail outlets). Bradford is still offered in less places so I wouldn’t consider it has "whoring" out. Supporting Rheem is like supporting a competitor. They dont care where a water heater is sold. Whether it's wholesale or retail. Any contractors installing faucets have nowhere to turn if they want support companies who can back up their support for the trade. Delta, Moen, Price Pfister and Koehler all sold retail. Bradford is among the few. As a contractor, having Bradford White at more than one wholesaler is a good thing. 

Rheem and Bradford side by side? Im going with the white box.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

303 Mechanical said:


> Rheem and Bradford side by side? Im going with the white box.


:thumbsup:


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## 303 Mechanical (Sep 30, 2009)

Indie said:


> I have been complaining to wholesaler that the Icon Gas valve was an unneeded complication. I was told they were adding features to make the water heater better. If someone else has presented this information then disregard this message.
> 
> http://www.bradfordwhite.com/iconAccessMovie.asp
> 
> ...


I think there is just a learning curve with these gas valves. As professionals it's best to stay somewhat current on the latest technology. Electronics-bells and whistles is the evolution of technology in any industry. There will be a day where the other 2 - Rheem and AO/State/American will have a similar gas valve. We've had a couple problems with the ICON. We took the time to learn how to isolate problems that could be associated with the gas valve and now we know how to handle the situations if they come up in the future. One thing is for sure, we are selling/installing more water heaters since the implementation of the ICON. "We offer an Intelligent Control on our Bradford White Water Heaters at no additional cost. A feature other water heaters dont have. *Plus it’s American Made*” We don’t have to be the same price as those contractors that install the other 2. Rheem, AO/State/American, because BW has more standard features that are not compromised throughout the line. We have made it a point at our shop to paint a clear picture to homeowners of the key differences between Bradford White and the other 2 water heater companies. This just doesn’t come down to our techs. When a phone call is comes into our office, our staff that answers our phones are well equipped to have intelligent conversations with the public when it comes to water heating technology. 

BW is more profitable for us. 

Hang in there guys…….


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

Plumber Jim said:


> whirlpool has sold a heater at lowes with the honeywell valve like this almost exact same for years.


 But we don't buy from them right....right?


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## JA Plumbing (Jun 1, 2010)

*small problems*

We install a lot of water heaters. With the tank models we are usually doing Bradford White. The new valve has given us a few problems and repair parts aren't locally stocked. I am going to give them some time to work the kinks out before I bid them a fond farewell.


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## SPH (Nov 4, 2008)

I wonder what the odds are that 303 Mechanical works for Bradford White....


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

SPH said:


> I wonder what the odds are that 303 Mechanical works for Bradford White....


That or just enjoys being on his knees.:whistling2:


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

Bradford White is all we sell and we have not had any problems with the Icon valves.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

A fellow plumber in the cuty use to swear by them...now he cant stand them. Said he had too much trouble out of the bradfords.....leaking tanks mostly...ask him and he will tell ya bradfords suck and he has the returns to prove it. go figure.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*we installed 2 lochinvars today....*

we installed two Lochinvars today with the old style
valves on them.... absloutely No problems

also installed a Rheem 50 gal gas todaY...no problems.....

I still have the Bradfords, but I am nOt pushing them..

when I do install one I just cross my fingers when I try to light it up..

I am gonna sit back and watch this* dog and pony show *
for a few more months just to be sure they get all the
kinks out of this valve..


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

303 Mechanical said:


> Yeah, there's plenty of that going on but impossible to stop. There's places that sell commercial water heaters online! Thats scary! At least BW does what they can to support the trade when it leaves thier factory unlike others. That means something. It would be impossible to police anything beyond that.



303 it seems all of your posts on the Zone have been dedicated to this thread. You in the tank yes with the Bradford Whites. Since I could not find an intro, I will assume that you are a plumber and not a BW rep. 
For your info, we are still installing BW and have not had a problem yet. This thread was to find out if anyone has been having problems, and as you might have read, some have. 
I do not appreciate the commentary on a learning curve, I find it to be an insult to my intelligence. I am all for new stuff, especially more profitable stuff, but somethings just don't need to be changed. With that being said, if BW has no problem, I will not change. If I do have problem, I will not hesitate to change brands.
Recalls does not = Profit 
Oh yeah, on more thing :tt2:


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

njoy plumbing said:


> But we don't buy from them right....right?


 I was just pointing out that the valve isn't anything new. I don't buy those.


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## tn plumber (Apr 24, 2010)

I been selling BW for over 15 years. I had one call back that's all. The only water heater I will sell you. If you have a problem in the first year BW will pay you to make the repair. Try going to lowes to get some money on a heater call back.


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## thboompa (Jun 11, 2010)

I replace more Brandford White water heaters and their parts 10 to1 Dont care for them


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

Plumber Jim said:


> I was just pointing out that the valve isn't anything new. I don't buy those.


 Yeah I know. I was just yankin' your chain. We get numerous calls to install box store - Giants, state, JW, etc... Just not Bradford White, thats why I changed to them and we aren't having any issues yet. Knock on wood.:whistling2:


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