# Union vs Non-Union for New Plumber



## rb1754 (Jan 29, 2015)

Hi All,

I've been having trouble trying to figure out whether to join the Union for training or use a local business to apprentice. One Plumber had this to say:

"if you really want to learn the trade, the union is the way to learn it. between the schooling and on the job work, you will be well ahead of the typical off the street plumber/ helper."

What do you guys think? I'd really like to learn the trade. If I go the Non-Union route can I get my journeyman license before 5 years time? Will I ever be able to join the Union? Will I get pigeon-held into doing only residential work?

Thanks!


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

rb1754 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I've been having trouble trying to figure out whether to join the Union for training or use a local business to apprentice. One Plumber had this to say:
> 
> ...


Union or non union, you won't get anywhere without an intro here..


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## rb1754 (Jan 29, 2015)

Fair enough. I made an introduction in the sub-forum. Nice to meet everyone and I'm looking forward to getting to know you all!


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Don't know about how it goes in Philly, but you should be Jman at 5 yrs. Depends on your dedication, how fast you learn, how far you want to go. You might even be poorly running a crew after 3 years while your superior is cruising the blvd in his leksus or fishing for grouper. (Inside joke)


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## rb1754 (Jan 29, 2015)

So Union or not it will still take me 5 years? .. Do you have an opinion on joining the Union vs not joining?


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

I have no opinion about unions.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

I'm union. I make a lot of money and have great benifits... when there is work. I don't mind paying dues, they aren't that much. Mostly I like being union, cause it gives me the opportunity to do the scale and scope of work I do. Not many non union shops in our area are doing 12.5 million plumbing contracts.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

chonkie said:


> Don't know about how it goes in Philly, but you should be Jman at 5 yrs. Depends on your dedication, how fast you learn, how far you want to go. You might even be poorly running a crew after 3 years while your superior is cruising the blvd in his leksus or fishing for grouper. (Inside joke)


That guy get banned?


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## rb1754 (Jan 29, 2015)

thanks for the input


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

rb1754 said:


> ...Do you have an opinion on joining the Union vs not joining?


To knkw in advance what will be best for you, you would have to know what you long term career goals are. If you share what you expect as an end result of your career then suggesting a course will be easier. Even then, it is sometimes just a roll of the dice.

Either course will yield only what you put into it. Both are great....if you are.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

I read a story once that I think applies to your situation.


Family-A- was thinking about moving to a new town. So one weekend they loaded up the mini van to scope out there prospective area. As they pull in to the small town they see an older gentleman walking his dog... they pull up beside him and ask,,, Sir, we are thinking of moving to your town and wanted to know what the people are like here?

He responds, well, what are the people like where you come from?

Not very very nice at all, mean and nasty they say.

Well I don't think you would like this town because that's the way everyone is here.

Like Family-A-, Family-B- also wanted to move and decided to take a trip. They see the same man and pull up to ask him,,, Sir, we are thinking of moving to your town and wanted to know what the people are like?

He asks, what are the people like where your from?

They say, oh they are great! Very hospitable, friendly and just all around good people!

The man responds,,, wonderful, you would love this town because everyone here is just like that!

Your attitude and outlook is whats gonna determine whether you will be satisfied with the choices you make in life. Now and in the future. 

Union or Non-union. Just my thoughts(except for the story, i stole that:laughing.


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## rb1754 (Jan 29, 2015)

I hope to one day become a Master Plumber and work mostly in residential. I don't want to own my own business, but I'd like to be useful to a business and potentially earn licenses in various niches.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

rb1754 said:


> I hope to one day become a Master Plumber and work mostly in residential. I don't want to own my own business, but I'd like to be useful to a business and potentially earn licenses in various niches.



I can't speak to Organized opportunities with those goals, but there are great opportunities in Dis-Organized shops that will lead to that outcome.


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## NyNick (Feb 14, 2013)

Im not sure where your at but in NY..you cant just join the union. If you happen to get "chosen" you will turn journeyman in 5 years provided you dont get laid off. If you do get laid off you will end up graduating your classes but still be an apprentice for as long as it takes to fullfill your work hours in the eyes of the state. If you go non Union good luck on graduating your "apprentice program". If ur non union boss does have a program ask him how many before you have graduated in the last 10 years. Also why the f*k would you want to be master plumber and earn a license yet crawl around on your knees all day and work for some ass*h**le that asks you whats taking you so long every 2 mins and yells at you for using two washers instead of one because hes not making any money on the job?


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

"In my opinion"

In my area union shops will offer better benefits, training and more security (less possible lay offs). More opportunity for general commercial work and most exclusively all large commercial projects.

Non union, easier to get into, less training and to learn you need to take charge of your own destiny. Less benefits & pay, but sometimes if you are a hard worker less lay off chances. Very little commercial work, a lot of repair & residential work. Retirement in most cases is on you, probably less holidays also.

The odds are better for you in the union if you have no aspirations of running your own shop. Everybody thinks the boss has it easy, no way.

I have heard both ends, union people calling non-union scabs, but buying things at Walmart, non-union calling union bigots & a**h**les. I believe the trade and knowledge itself commands the respect. I have also commented to non-union people to thank the union, if it was not for them you would not be making what you are.


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## fhrooter72 (Apr 12, 2011)

Depends on what part of the country you're in, how strong is the union in your area and what part of the industry you want to specialize in. 

I did my apprenticeship in the union but then decided to go open shop. I felt our local union was too dependent on large commercial new construction and I felt service was better long term for me. Texas is not as pro-union as other states and that made it easier for me. Other states are more union oriented and it may be better to become a union plumber. Go to your local union hall and also talk to some non-union shops and then make your decision.


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## fhrooter72 (Apr 12, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> I can't speak to Organized opportunities with those goals, but there are great opportunities in *Dis-Organized* shops that will lead to that outcome.


I see what you did there :laughing:


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

rb1754 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I've been having trouble trying to figure out whether to join the Union for training or use a local business to apprentice. One Plumber had this to say:
> 
> ...


If you join a union you can always withdraw,and as long as you send in a withdraw letter you can be reinstated later on if you want to rejoin,but no withdraw letter then they will notallow you to rejoin.like the others said,you will learn quicker and better going with the union,also they have good benefits,I was in a union for 3yrs myself and it was good,but one thing to think about is where you live,is there a lot of union work going on there all the time???if not you will have to travel or set on the bench drawing unemployment until another local job opens up.That was my problem,not enough union work.If there is a lot of union work where you live then I'd go with the union:thumbup:


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

I just sent my withdraw letter into the union back home, town i am living in has no Union shops, I am also responsible for getting my kids to school in the morning so for me the smaller company works better for me. The unions may have a better training program, but depending on where your living the work may not be steady. That coupled with the fact that the bigger companies can Name hire off the list allows them to pick and choose who they want working for them. When you go in the business agent is a salesman first and foremost keep that in mind. Working for the unions can be very rewarding but it's not easy either.


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## rb1754 (Jan 29, 2015)

Thanks for all the input!

Right now I am living in Connecticut and the Union that would train me is UA Local 777 .. but how do I find out how much work they get? Right now, they're involved in building a major Hospital in my area, but the Union Rep I spoke with made it sound like other than that there isn't much going on and plumbers are driving 2 hours to work on the project (that's all he said)

Otherwise, I hope to move back with my family in Philadelphia Metro once I obtain my Journeyman License, which I'm sure probably has a lot of things going on.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

rb1754 said:


> Thanks for all the input!
> 
> Right now I am living in Connecticut and the Union that would train me is UA Local 777 .. but how do I find out how much work they get? Right now, they're involved in building a major Hospital in my area, but the Union Rep I spoke with made it sound like other than that there isn't much going on and plumbers are driving 2 hours to work on the project (that's all he said)
> 
> Otherwise, I hope to move back with my family in Philadelphia Metro once I obtain my Journeyman License, which I'm sure probably has a lot of things going on.


Why not move before you start your apprenticeship... moving to another state isn't easy... every state has different requirements. And unions don't always accept transfers. Right now they are struggling with their own membership, and getting licenced in CT, only to move to PA, and potentially having to re apprentice would blow.


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## rb1754 (Jan 29, 2015)

My wife is finishing her studies to become a Doctor here in Connecticut and it will take another 5 years, which would sort of line up perfectly with an Apprenticeship. 

Would they really make me re-train even with a Connecticut Journeyman License? In the very least, shouldn't I try to get the education, and figure out those details later? At least I wouldn't be an "off-the-street plumber" as one person said.


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## Plumber1970 (Mar 6, 2013)

I recently left the local union in Milwaukee. At this point I am glad I did. I was unable to look for work if I got laid off. Unions restrict you and what you are able to do. You can't touch 401k. More flexible benefits for non union companies. I am glad I made switch.


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## NyNick (Feb 14, 2013)

If your talking with the business agent like that i feel like your going to get into the B division which is metal trades


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## Jon59901 (Dec 8, 2013)

Just my opinion, the union isn't that big here in N.W. Mt. I looked at both sides of this topic prior to deciding which road to go down. I truly feel like was said before, non Union plumbers have much more freedom. I can come and go as I like. If I were to get laid off I can get a job elsewhere and not be forced to be a bump on a log waiting for work on unemployment. I won't let anyone tell me when I can go make money for my family. I know a couple union plumbers and both have called me pretty much a piece of crap for not getting in the union. The unions had their time which did help us to get where we are as a trade. They have had their time but the sun is setting. Not trying to get argumentative just my thoughts.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Union card will allow you to travel across the nation local to local if there is work. Non union is more spotty,not in any way a disgrace but it is harder to find work just because there is no network. There is good plumbers on both sides of the fence but if you are in a situation where the union is taking apps fill one out. You can't beat knowledge that they will give you.


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## fishhb (Jan 28, 2015)

i left the union 5 years ago now i work for a small shop that dose pretty big jobs i make more non union and work alot more i get bonuses on big jobs but im the Forman i get no health befits if i was just a journeyman i would say the union is better for as wage but u can make more non union if your motivated both have their up and downs lot of politics in the union but its a good wage


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## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

Training in the union might be good but it's not the only place you can get a good education. The company I work for has a 4 year apprenticeship program that is just as good or better than our local union's IMO.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Unions around the country are hit and miss I think. I'm a member of the union, but an not really a "union or die" kinda guy, but I will say this, I get get a pretty good plumbing education, acc they offer free certification classes and free continuing education. That being said, I don't know much about plumbing outside of the union, except that some shops pay well, some don't, and some shops have benefits and some don't. 

My only true issue with the union is that no matter your performance, a good plumber and a bad plumber make the same.


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## paultheplumber1 (May 1, 2014)

All the guys that were in the union here in RI that I know have gotten out. They had to get up really early and drive between a few hours every day. They made good money and bens but we're constantly getting hit with layoffs. And there knowledge of residential plumbing was very little.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Flyout95 said:


> Unions around the country are hit and miss I think. I'm a member of the union, but an not really a "union or die" kinda guy, but I will say this, I get get a pretty good plumbing education, acc they offer free certification classes and free continuing education. That being said, I don't know much about plumbing outside of the union, except that some shops pay well, some don't, and some shops have benefits and some don't.
> 
> My only true issue with the union is that no matter your performance, a good plumber and a bad plumber make the same.


The last union pipe fitting job I was on before I left the union was at the Gm corvette plant in bg ky,we were piping in the new Cadillac line that Gm was making.first day on the job,there were 5 of us journeyman plbers with two pipe fitters and one welder,I swear them guys killed more time than I ever seen in my life,it took till lunchtime,12:00,for them to figure out how long the hangers were gonna be,then it took rest of the day to figure out how to mount them,I was runnin pretty good pace and steward said,man slow down,I was wore out at the end of the day doing nothing,and at the end of the day the steward came around and said,dang,yall got a lot done today,and he was serious.i like to have fell over when he said that.they would not let me go at my usual fast pace,no,they were not having it,so I finally gave in and worked like they did,after two months I was so glad that job ended:laughing: it was kinda like being gang raped,after a while you just have to lay back and take it:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## rb1754 (Jan 29, 2015)

Right now, I'm considering reaching out to local shops to sign on as a Trainee to at least get some experience. However, from what I've read on here and online, is that a Non-Union Apprentice can start as low as $10/hour, which would make it really difficult to live off of, since I'm not just coming out of High School. 

At the moment, I work a Part-Time job from 6PM - Midnight that pays me enough to live OK. Someone mentioned to me that it is unlikely I'll be able to swing it with an employer, but if I have any chance of paying rent or other bills I would need to keep that Part-Time job ...

Hoping to get opinions on this before I start contacting local shops .. Any way to play the sympathy card? I'd really like to learn the trade.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I worked a full-time night job for 2-1/2 years of my apprenticeship. 

If young and physically able I would do it again today, to be where I am today.


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## fishhb (Jan 28, 2015)

Flyout95 said:


> Unions around the country are hit and miss I think. I'm a member of the union, but an not really a "union or die" kinda guy, but I will say this, I get get a pretty good plumbing education, acc they offer free certification classes and free continuing education. That being said, I don't know much about plumbing outside of the union, except that some shops pay well, some don't, and some shops have benefits and some don't.
> 
> My only true issue with the union is that no matter your performance, a good plumber and a bad plumber make the same.



this is how i feel about the union and the education is excellent


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## tailpiece (Jan 3, 2015)

Youre gonna eat sh*t the first couple of years anyway might as well try to hook up with a company thats not full of miserable people that are willing and exited to teach you, theyre out there just very hard to find


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## kimo (Jul 22, 2011)

Are you serious OP? Its a no-brainer, go Union every time. Getting in is the hard bit, in the Bay Area a very hard bit.

Get your name down now, find out what the entrance test is. Keep going down to talk to the business agent - show your total determination to be a Union plumber. Know a little of Union history.

The Union will train and educate you better than any one else. It protects its apprentices from the kind of the scum bosses i've had to work for. The benefits are gold dust.

Saw a Union tract stop work when the developer lost his loan - the Union guys were told to show up, sit tight and do nothing - after two weeks, work started again. Not one man or woman lost a dime.


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## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

kimo said:


> Saw a Union tract stop work when the developer lost his loan - the Union guys were told to show up, sit tight and do nothing - after two weeks, work started again. Not one man or woman lost a dime.


 
Who paid for that?


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## Jon59901 (Dec 8, 2013)

Rando said:


> Who paid for that?



Taxes


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## kimo (Jul 22, 2011)

Good question. I dont know, none of the guys that i used to go over at break and talk to mentioned it. 
But my point was, of course, that the Union protected them. Half the deadbeats i've worked for have sent us home in the afternoon to save a few nickles and dimes. One contractor frightened the other FNG's into using their own vehicles on his jobs - i left.

I know its a contentious business but i'm all for the Unions - human nature says the powerful will exploit the weak, Yeah, the Unions are not above some exploiting but mostly they will protect the little guy against the powerful.


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## pianoplumber (Apr 19, 2014)

It doesn't matter whether you're union or open, you still have to go home at night and sleep with yourself.


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## kinzel27772 (Dec 17, 2014)

I'm a third year apprentice in the union. The education I get is second to none. great pay, great benefits. If you bust your ass and show you know what your doing your contractor will hold on to you and keep you working. I would apply to your local union


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