# Heating system w/Rinnai



## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Here ya go boys - pick it apart.  Everyone loves a point and laugh.  But unless you come up with something really good I'm not changing a thing. It will pass inspection with our ultra-picky inspectors (second craziest inspectors in the Greater Vancouver area), and it works great.

The house is radiant down and baseboard up. The pull box has two relays for independant up/down pump control. We're required to run an aquastat on the boiler loop to disable the baseboard and radiant pumps whenever boiler return temp is below 135F.

I didn't do the gas or venting, though I did do the Rinnai vent. I did all the wiring - I have an electrical endorsement (part of my gas ticket).















The little piece of white pex is because I forgot to put in a purge valve originally and the loops wouldn't purge without one (once the air hits the pump you're done!). Had to add it on wire/fire/purge day and didn't have any oxy-barrier pex with me. I'll have to change that or the inspector will have something to nitpick about.


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

Please put shut-offs under all AAV's.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Looks impressive.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

uaplumber said:


> Please put shut-offs under all AAV's.


That would be nice, but is really overkill for a little house system. This system doesn't have to be completely drained and repurged to change them out. It has good isolation valves for each section.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

How are you going to unscrew that gas regulator above the rinnai? It looks like it would hit the heater. I mean taking it apart would be easy enough but how would you install the new one?


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> How are you going to uncsrew that gas regulator above the rinnai? It looks like it would hit the heater.


There's a union downstream of it. It could be easily swung out on the elbow thread and spun off for replacement. Trivial job for a good fitter.

Like I said, I didn't do the gas. I would likely have done it somewhat differently.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

futz said:


> There's a union downstream of it. It could be easily swung out on the elbow thread and spun off for replacement. Trivial job for a good fitter.


 How would you install the new one? Wouldn;t you hafta at some point overtighten then loosen it back into position?


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> How would you install the new one? Wouldn;t you hafta at some point overtighten then loosen it back into position?


Good point. Ok then, here's another way: just swing it out on the Tee branch thread (loosening). Replace the reg and swing the assembly back in (re-tightening the joint) and tighten the union again. Problem solved.  It's probably how he put it together in the first place.

EDIT: Just looked at the full size pic and I think that reg is out in front of the Rinnai by more than enough to spin it. The small pic just makes it look like it's tucked in on top of the heater. Optical illusion.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

futz said:


> Good point. Ok then, here's another way: just swing it out on the Tee branch thread (loosening). Replace the reg and swing the assembly back in (re-tightening the joint) and tighten the union again. Problem solved.  It's probably how he put it together in the first place.
> 
> EDIT: Just looked at the full size pic and I think that reg is out in front of the Rinnai by more than enough to spin it. The small pic makes it look like it's tucked in on top of the heater. Optical illusion.


 I still say the union should have been installed between the 90 and the regulator.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I still say the union should have been installed between the 90 and the regulator.


Well... I think I'd prefer to see unions on the low pressure side (7" WC) rather than on the 2PSI side. Fittings these days are so cheesy. A cracked union would be bad either way, but REALLY bad on the 2 pound side.

Regs don't fail all that often anyway. If it happened, repiping everything there would be a simple job.

Anyway, here I am defending the gasfitter.  I see another error in his job too. See if you can spot it. It's a minor thing, but technically should have been done differently.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

futz said:


> Well... I think I'd prefer to see unions on the low pressure side (7" WC) rather than on the 2PSI side. Fittings these days are so cheesy. A cracked union would be bad either way, but REALLY bad on the 2 pound side.
> 
> Regs don't fail all that often anyway. If it happened, repiping everything there would be a simple job.
> 
> Anyway, here I am defending the gasfitter.  I see another error in his job too. See if you can spot it. It's a minor thing, but technically should have been done differently.


 I dont like to over run a fitting and then back it off. I was taught that was wrong. I wouldn't fear my union would crack. Maybe that brass ball valve but not the union.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

The gas cut-off for the copper tube section of gas is too far away from the appliance?


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> The gas cut-off for the copper tube section of gas is too far away from the appliance?


Nope. Would be better closer, but that's not a rule here anyway. If I was making the rules I would demand that those valves be easily accessible - without a ladder, or climbing on the boiler (get the hell off my boiler!!! :furious: ).

Answer: That first valve should be upstream of the drip leg. Told ya it was trivial. A snitty inspector would catch that. Provincial inspectors here only do spot checks on residential (they just take your money and give you nothing in return - slimy tax collectors) so the fitters get a bit sloppy sometimes. F'rinstance, no fitter around here (except me) seems to know how to do a proper swing joint at the meter. They just pipe it into the house any old way.



TheMaster said:


> I dont like to over run a fitting and then back it off. I was taught that was wrong.


It is wrong. Just asking for a leak. Stretch it more if necessary (don't split it), but never back it off.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Here we wouldn't have installed that main 2psi reg we have been talking about. Each appliance gets one reg to drop from 2psi. You did a nice clean job.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Here we wouldn't have installed that main 2psi reg we have been talking about. Each appliance gets one reg to drop from 2psi. You did a nice clean job.


Where is "here"? Different code, I guess. I've done it with individual regs too, but it's never been a rule here. We used to come in to commercial kitchens at 5 PSI, drop to a big 7" WC reg by the main cooking line and pipe the entire kitchen off 7" WC. The rooftop units and makeup-air all had their own individual regs.

Then I went to Ontario to do the same kitchen and had to do the entire building at 7"  Madness!!! And you run your gas mains across the roof on sleepers there, dropping into the building here and there through pitch pots. Very weird! :blink:


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

the only support i see on that over head gas line is one flimpsy piece of band iron..:thumbup::whistling2:
other than that nice work looks good man!!!


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't think I could have done any better. Good job. :thumbsup:


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

I think this is the first time I have ever said this before, but that's a damn fine installation, good job. Here's some thoughts / praise (since you asked!) CSST transition from IP to your regulator. Nice simple copper work, I like how you jogged the hot water line out and didn't use only 90's (45's) I noticed the hot copper to pex is a little pulled off the 1x4 strapping block, but to square that up would have cost more fittings (not the $$$ cost, but the pressure hit). I like the flange type mounting for your Grundfos versus the compression style. Like I have said many times before, if you want to be a good tankless installer, you just need to be a good plumber. 

Good job, if your ever in my parts, I'll put you to work!


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Plumbworker said:


> the only support i see on that over head gas line is one flimsy piece of band iron..:thumbup::whistling2:
> other than that nice work looks good man!!!


Ya, that fitter doesn't do the best work sometimes. If I had done it it would be properly hung. But I'm WAY too busy with plumbing & heating to do the gas and ventilation too, so I almost always refuse to take it.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Tankless said:


> I noticed the hot copper to pex is a little pulled off the 1x4 strapping block,


It doesn't show in the pic but that is supported further down. It's solid.



> but to square that up would have cost more fittings (not the $$$ cost, but the pressure hit).


I dry fit a street 45 but it was too close to the wall, so I just leaned it back. Not the best look but not terribly noticeable.



> I like the flange type mounting for your Grundfos versus the compression style.


I didn't even know they were available in compression. Never seen one. How do you change one out with compression joints?



> Good job, if your ever in my parts, I'll put you to work!


Heh


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

futz said:


> I didn't even know they were available in compression. Never seen one. How do you change one out with compression joints?/quote]
> 
> Exactly.......


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Excellent looking work. Neat and clean. I do agree about the automatic bleeds, but that's pretty trivial overall.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

No vent pipe for the backflow? That's just terrible......

In all seriousness very nice work! I wish I knew heat that well. I put my own boiler in but don't feel confident enough to do heat as part of my business. I know the basics, I just don't consider myself an expert. Nice Job!


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

pauliplumber said:


> No vent pipe for the backflow?


Vent pipe? On a Watts #9D? Oh, you mean a pipe from it to the drain? I've had a couple inspectors demand that, but mostly they don't bother. On boilers, if there's nothing wrong, they rarely drop more than a few drops, and then only when you're adjusting things. If that thing is leaking then the HO should be able to see the leak and call someone to do something about it, pronto!

What almost always starts them leaking is a HO who doesn't get a yearly boiler service - the expansion tank fails (with no symptoms) and waterlogs. Then the pressure relief gets popped on every call for heat till it doesn't seal anymore, but the customer doesn't see that leaking because it's piped to a drain. So now since there is fresh oxygenated water coming in constantly, the fill valve and the backflow preventer (and every other ferrous piece) corrodes bad. Pretty soon the fill valve is rusted open or closed and the #9D starts dribbling. Repairing them is not an option - it's a waste of time to even try. That's when they call and get a repair bill that shocks em a bit.  "For hot water heating you *must* do regular maintenance or you will pay the consequences. Be sloppy with furnaces, but NOT boilers."


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Thanks for the detailed explanation, you know your boilers.
It seems most manufacturers and some plumbers say it's best to put the circ pump on the feed rather than the return, as they were always done. Just curious what your thoughts are on this.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

pauliplumber said:


> It seems most manufacturers and some plumbers say it's best to put the circ pump on the feed rather than the return, as they were always done. Just curious what your thoughts are on this.


For the boiler loop you always pump away from the expansion tank. You should also always put the fill line in at the exp tank (the zero point).

For heat circuits they're probably wanting the circulator (pump) on the feed because if it's on the return and you need to purge the circuit, it's impossible to pull air. The second that pump gets a bubble of air in it it stops pumping and windmills. But on the supply you can use the circulator to push water to force the air through to a purge valve on the return. So basically, though pumps on the return line sounds good (cooler temp - maybe longer life), in practice it makes the system very difficult or impossible to purge out when new or when servicing.

I'm sure there are other reasons, but I can't think of em right now.


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