# Closet flange replacement.



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

I had a call today to replace a closet flange. She had two of the big companies out for her toilet leaking at the base. She said they both quoted a thousand dollarsand they both said they would have to cut the ceiling below to make the repair. Quite honestly I can't remember the last time I had to cut a ceiling to replace a flange.. With the right tools and skill most can be done from above. One of the plumbers also installed a new toilet for her in her master bath and didn't cut the closet bolts and didn't install the china caps amazing. It really surprises me how lazy and unprofessional some plumbers are. I make sure and point this stuff out to customers. It's all about setting yourself apart from the competition. 

Busted flange. 










Cut it off at the hub with the inside cutter and drill. I use 3" metal cutoff wheels on a tank bolt for this. The reason being is because they effortlessly cut through the the pipe and the hub. The inside cutter you buy at the supply house are worthless. The wheels are so small they barely even cut through the pipe. When doing a flange your lucky if you'll be able to cut perfectly between the two hubs with the small cutting wheel.. That's why the 3" wheel is the best. This ones a little worn down but still big enough. 










Then I take a 3" ram bit and drill the pipe out of the 3" 90 hub. I run my drill at a high rpm and push through very slowly. 










Then after I get the pipe drilled out and hub cleaned out I glue in a piece of 3" PVC about 5" long then use the inside cutter to cut it down to the proper length. 










Then after I cut the pipe to the proper height with the inside cutter I then cut a pile of spacers out of 1/2" copper. I normally only use four, one for each screw but on this one the subfloor was so rotted on the left side I had to put them all the way around with screws. 










File the sharp edges off the flange before it gets glued in. 










Glue the new flange in and screw it down. The copper spacers keep it at the perfect height. 










This one took longer than usual.. It took about 1.5 hrs to replace the flange and reset the toilet. I actually like replacing flanges because I think I'm pretty good at it. The customer was happy and the job turned out nice so it was a success!


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Looks good. I have a set of those Ram Bits, very useful tool. 

Looks like you like to use the small notch openings for the closet bolts; I prefer the curved slot with the square head for my closet bolts.


----------



## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

Great job and I bet she was smiling after. Love these kinds of jobs, when you can make people happy. I've used to have a Pipe Parana a while ago, but it got stolen off the job.


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Did you know that you can do this a lot easier ..

You can actually peel the fitting off the pipe .. Make a slice on the fitting to the outside of the pipe ... Take a flat screw driver and hammer and hit the screw drive were the fitting joins the pipe ... The fitting will actually pop right off


----------



## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Nice work! Copper spacers are a great idea I never thought of that!


----------



## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> Did you know that you can do this a lot easier ..
> 
> You can actually peel the fitting off the pipe .. Make a slice on the fitting to the outside of the pipe ... Take a flat screw driver and hammer and hit the screw drive were the fitting joins the pipe ... The fitting will actually pop right off


Make three slices, and it's even easier...


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Tommy plumber said:


> Looks good. I have a set of those Ram Bits, very useful tool.
> 
> Looks like you like to use the small notch openings for the closet bolts; I prefer the curved slot with the square head for my closet bolts.


Thanks! I have never used the long slots only because in my early days of plumbing I saw that usually when a flange is broken its because the long slots were used and I thought that with the small slots there was more meat there. A real professional would be able to use either but it's just personal preference. 



Relic said:


> Great job and I bet she was smiling after. Love these kinds of jobs, when you can make people happy. I've used to have a Pipe Parana a while ago, but it got stolen off the job.


She was very happy. My bill came to less than $400. She said "but both plumbers said there is no way to do it without cutting the ceiling". I said "not all plumbers are created equal". Which I say a lot.. It's true. 



OldSchool said:


> Did you know that you can do this a lot easier ..
> 
> You can actually peel the fitting off the pipe .. Make a slice on the fitting to the outside of the pipe ... Take a flat screw driver and hammer and hit the screw drive were the fitting joins the pipe ... The fitting will actually pop right off


Thanks for explaining that.. I remember hearing some old timers mention that about 12 years ago but I never had a clear explanation of how it's done. I'll try that next time.


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Thanks! I have never used the long slots only because in my early days of plumbing I saw that usually when a flange is broken its because the long slots were used and I thought that with the small slots there was more meat there. A real professional would be able to use either but it's just personal preference.
> 
> She was very happy. My bill came to less than $400. She said "but both plumbers said there is no way to do it without cutting the ceiling". I said "not all plumbers are created equal". Which I say a lot.. It's true.
> 
> Thanks for explaining that.. I remember hearing some old timers mention that about 12 years ago but I never had a clear explanation of how it's done. I'll try that next time.


Hopefully my explanation was clear enough ..


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

I love that hilti drill. I found it on Craigslist brand new for $100. When I first touched it it burned the crap outta my hands but it since has cooled off.


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

I have peeled PVC pipe out of a PVC fitting's hub by cutting a notch on the inside of the pipe and then using a screwdriver with a hammer to pop the piece of pipe out of the fitting; but I have also broken the hub of the fitting with that method too....:laughing:

I bought the Ram bits to make the task easier. The Ram bits work great.


----------



## Tim`s Plumbing (Jan 17, 2012)

Good job but I would have never used an all plastic closet flange. For one they don`t meet code here and they are junk they allways break.


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> Hopefully my explanation was clear enough ..




Definately.. I will try that next time. 

I was talking to someone earlier today and they said "hey just use one of these" (inside 3" pipe flanges). I said. "no thanks, that's the last thing I'll use only if theyre on a slab". I hate those things. They are for lazy people. Years ago I went to reset a toilet that had be reset 3 times already. I saw the 3" inside pipe flange.. Changed it to a real flange.. Never heard back.


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Tommy plumber said:


> I have peeled PVC pipe out of a PVC fitting's hub by cutting a notch on the inside of the pipe and then using a screwdriver with a hammer to pop the piece of pipe out of the fitting; but I have also broken the hub of the fitting with that method too....:laughing:
> 
> I bought the Ram bits to make the task easier. The Ram bits work great.


They're great.. I've even used a 1" bit for a irrigation line under pressure and it was fine fine:thumbsup:


----------



## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

Thanks for posting United, you said you would awhile back, and I've been waiting...nice work!

I think I need a ram bit, I currently cut it out like old school suggested. But your way needs a try.

At 1.5 hrs how is your cost breakdown...flat rate? I would charge probably around 225$. I need to reasses!


----------



## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Tim`s Plumbing said:


> Good job but I would have never used an all plastic closet flange. For one they don`t meet code here and they are junk they allways break.


Where in the MA code does it say all plastic flanges are not allowed? I actually prefer them when I'm doing pvc as apposed to the pvc flange with the metal top. I've seen way to many of those metal top flanges rot out because the junk coating on them peels off in a year.

Most plastic flanges brake because they aren't screwed down correctly. If you use all the screw holes with stainless screws that flange should never brake.


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Tim`s Plumbing said:


> Good job but I would have never used an all plastic closet flange. For one they don`t meet code here and they are junk they allways break.


Which flange does not break?


----------



## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

bct p&h said:


> Where in the MA code does it say all plastic flanges are not allowed? I actually prefer them when I'm doing pvc as apposed to the pvc flange with the metal top. I've seen way to many of those metal top flanges rot out because the junk coating on them peels off in a year.
> 
> Most plastic flanges brake because they aren't screwed down correctly. If you use all the screw holes with stainless screws that flange should never brake.


Sioux Chief makes one with a stainless steel metal ring. No worrys about the coating, and rust.


----------



## coast to coast (Feb 17, 2012)

That is some nice work . I have to ask though , in the picture the old flange looks flush with the tile , so couldn't u have just set a new outside flange.ring on top screw it down and called it a day . Just curious maybe I'm missing something .


----------



## ibeplumber (Sep 20, 2011)

Nice Work! But use a Sioux Chief Stainless Steel Ringer and be done with it. I can't see where it's broken, maybe replacement was required.


----------



## phishfood (Nov 18, 2012)

Another stainless steel ring guy checking in.

Thanks for sharing, United. Do you ever have issues with the pipe underneath pushing down when you glue the flange on?


----------



## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

phishfood said:


> Another stainless steel ring guy checking in.
> 
> Thanks for sharing, United. Do you ever have issues with the pipe underneath pushing down when you glue the flange on?


I like the stainless flanges as well. 

When I have had a pipe that is too wobbly, I use 550 para cord. I will loop it underneath the closet ell and lay the ends down. I will the clean both ends, primer and glue. Then start to push the flange in place. Then pick up both ends of the cord. Take your foot and step on the flange while you pull up on the cord and it will hold it in place.


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Tim`s Plumbing said:


> Good job but I would have never used an all plastic closet flange. For one they don`t meet code here and they are junk they allways break.


Any real plumber can use any flange without breaking it. This is the method I prefer. Those flanges with the steel ring are terrible since they are always a rusted mess. Every now and then I'll run I to a brass flange.. Now those are sweet!


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

redbeardplumber said:


> Thanks for posting United, you said you would awhile back, and I've been waiting...nice work!
> 
> I think I need a ram bit, I currently cut it out like old school suggested. But your way needs a try.
> 
> At 1.5 hrs how is your cost breakdown...flat rate? I would charge probably around 225$. I need to reasses!




I flat rated it. I price jobs based on the skill level needed to make the repair. A job like this is worth every bit of 350-400. Think about it.. Everyone else wanted to cut the ceiling and charge a grand for the job.. Part of me thinks they were just being lazy and trying to talk the customer out of doing the job or maybe they just flat out didn't want to do it which wouldnt surprise me.


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

coast to coast said:


> That is some nice work . I have to ask though , in the picture the old flange looks flush with the tile , so couldn't u have just set a new outside flange.ring on top screw it down and called it a day . Just curious maybe I'm missing something .




Ill do the right way before I do it the easy way. Your method you described I feel is not a permanent repair that will stand the test of time. My method will last as long as its not over tightened.


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

ibeplumber said:


> Nice Work! But use a Sioux Chief Stainless Steel Ringer and be done with it. I can't see where it's broken, maybe replacement was required.
> 
> View attachment 25432




I'm not a fan of those rings.. It was broken on both slots where the bolts were. You can see in the pic some genius put drywall screws at each break like it was supposed to do something.


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

phishfood said:


> Another stainless steel ring guy checking in.
> 
> Thanks for sharing, United. Do you ever have issues with the pipe underneath pushing down when you glue the flange on?




It's usually sturdy enough to make the repair. I've never had a issue.


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

johntheplumber said:


> I like the stainless flanges as well.
> 
> When I have had a pipe that is too wobbly, I use 550 para cord. I will loop it underneath the closet ell and lay the ends down. I will the clean both ends, primer and glue. Then start to push the flange in place. Then pick up both ends of the cord. Take your foot and step on the flange while you pull up on the cord and it will hold it in place.


Good tip:thumbsup:

I've thought about using banding iron before but have never had one where I have had to do it.


----------



## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

I agree with you United, replacing the entire flange is what I would do too. Peeling fittings away is what hacks do because they screwed up. Only time I'll use a repair flange is when all other options for full replacement is exhausted.


----------



## phishfood (Nov 18, 2012)

Just to be clear, I am talking about an entire flange that comes with a stainless ring, not about using a stainless ring on top of a broken plastic flange.


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

phishfood said:


> Just to be clear, I am talking about an entire flange that comes with a stainless ring, not about using a stainless ring on top of a broken plastic flange.


10-4 :thumbsup:


I'll have to check those out. Stainless would def be better than painted steel.


----------



## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

Tim`s Plumbing said:


> Good job but I would have never used an all plastic closet flange. For one they don`t meet code here and they are junk they* allways break.*




Now that's a bunch of BS, a properly installed plastic flange that is screwed to the floor will last a long time. I always use the slotted part of the flange where there is a screw hole on each side of the slot, I never use the adjustable slots.


----------



## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> I had a call today to replace a closet flange. She had two of the big companies out for her toilet leaking at the base. She said they both quoted a thousand dollarsand they both said they would have to cut the ceiling below to make the repair. Quite honestly I can't remember the last time I had to cut a ceiling to replace a flange.. With the right tools and skill most can be done from above. One of the plumbers also installed a new toilet for her in her master bath and didn't cut the closet bolts and didn't install the china caps amazing. It really surprises me how lazy and unprofessional some plumbers are. I make sure and point this stuff out to customers. It's all about setting yourself apart from the competition.
> 
> Busted flange.
> 
> ...


 
Good job, that's exactly the way I would have done it. I have a set of those ram bits also, they work well.


----------



## damnplumber (Jan 22, 2012)

*that's what I use*



ibeplumber said:


> Nice Work! But use a Sioux Chief Stainless Steel Ringer and be done with it. I can't see where it's broken, maybe replacement was required.
> 
> View attachment 25432


Great write up Thanks! 
I remember buying a whole closet flange and taking the ring off to make the repair but then came the Sioux Chief stainless bad boy...I keep 3 on my truck. A common repair up here in Joshua Tree.
Those big dollar con-artests sure are good for business though aren't they?


----------



## Tim`s Plumbing (Jan 17, 2012)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Any real plumber can use any flange without breaking it. This is the method I prefer. Those flanges with the steel ring are terrible since they are always a rusted mess. Every now and then I'll run I to a brass flange.. Now those are sweet!


 I`m not saying the plumber breaks them it is the home owner who breaks them. And I also use the stainless steel flange. I personaly think all plastic flanges are junk to each their own don`t get so defensive.


----------



## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

try a 1/4 inch wood chisel instead of a screwdriver next time. You might find this much easier. Small hack saw blade, chisel and hammer 10 minutes later the flange is off and glued in place.


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Tim`s Plumbing said:


> I`m not saying the plumber breaks them it is the home owner who breaks them. And I also use the stainless steel flange. I personaly think all plastic flanges are junk to each their own don`t get so defensive.



Sorry it came off that way it was not my intention.


----------



## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Good tip:thumbsup:
> 
> I've thought about using banding iron before but have never had one where I have had to do it.



On occasion when iv'e come across a flexing closet bend, i'll wrap band iron around 90 and screw it to sub floor and glue down flange. Works great when its up against a joist. 

Nice work bud!


----------



## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

89plumbum said:


> On occasion when iv'e come across a flexing closet bend, i'll wrap band iron around 90 and screw it to sub floor and glue down flange. Works great when its up against a joist.
> 
> Nice work bud!


That is also a great way to secure it. 

I love though when a customer wants us to set the water closet back on a rotted floor. Especially in a rent house. They get kind of miffed when we say no.


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

I'll do it but if it's bad enough I'll make them aware there is no warranty and write it on the ticket.


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Tim`s Plumbing said:


> I`m not saying the plumber breaks them it is the home owner who breaks them. And I also use the stainless steel flange. I personaly think all plastic flanges are junk to each their own don`t get so defensive.


That was my point too.. That plumbers shouldn't be breaking flanges.


----------



## Ghostmaker (Jan 12, 2013)

Nice professional repair....


----------



## plumb1bob (Dec 14, 2012)

Nice repair, steel coated flanges are not allowed by code here. I only use the stainless steel flanges, PVC flanges get cut out. BUT try this instead on copper spacers. Souix Chief makes PVC 1/4 inch spacers. I would never stack them on a existing flange, but when replacing a flange I will stack them UNDER the new flange to raise it up. I supports the entire ring, then I screw the new SS flange down through the spacers with NO. 14 SS wood screws. Always screw down with the scews on a slight angle, gives more holding power to the flange. Had pictures off this repair but lost it when I swapped to new phone last year.:whistling2:


----------



## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

Wow! I thought my shiot didn't 't stink ,but u take the cake buddy.the only thing I do different is use a whole saw bit lennox 2.5" or maybe 3" to take out te Center purce


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> I had a call today to replace a closet flange. <snip> *Nice flange replacement -- BUT what did you set the closet with ... WAX. If you did the wax probably will fail, as most could push down into the void below the flange. Through the bolt slots. I in that situation would set on rubber or fill the voids with quick/hard cement. Just food for conversation!*


----------



## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

I agree Bill, plus the added support under the flange couldn't hurt either.


----------



## coast to coast (Feb 17, 2012)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Ill do the right way before I do it the easy way. Your method you described I feel is not a permanent repair that will stand the test of time. My method will last as long as its not over tightened.


I'm confused as to how just replacing the outside ring is not the rite way . If it was an elevation issue yes I can see having to do what u did but it looked like your situation was almost prefect for just replacing the outside ring . I've been following this post and learned a little something from the technic you describe . I'm I the only 1 who believes u could have just replaced the ring . Just curious to each there own but I don't see my way as the easy way just the quicker way .


----------



## dplumb (Jan 6, 2013)

Tim`s Plumbing said:


> Good job but I would have never used an all plastic closet flange. For one they don`t meet code here and they are junk they allways break.


Never seen in MA or had an inspector call me on using a solid PVC closet flange. I honestly prefer them over the stainless ring ones that always seem to rot out.


----------



## dplumb (Jan 6, 2013)

That being said, the ones with the metal ring are easy to fix with the Sioux Chief replacement that was posted earlier in the thread.


----------



## sjaquay (Jan 13, 2013)

i like the sioux stainless rings on cast iron flange repairs. set it on and use a small drill bit to drill holes in the CI and screw the new flange down with stainless screws. works great on CI flange repairs. did a bunch of them in a hotel we were remodeling, of course the hiltons didnt want to take out all the CI, which we said they should do. 
love the big inside pipe cutter, def gotta get me one of those, my little one i hate. will def use this next one i have to do.


----------



## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

The one thing I dislike about the Sioux Chief flanges is the small lip that holds the SS ring, poor design to me. I prefer them over pvc flanges any day


----------



## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

http://www.siouxchief.com/Resource_/Product_Image/276//Regular/C888PM.jpg

Gotta say fellas ,, This flange is great on repair /replacements . STAINLESS STEEL ,, Not coated SS ,,, REAL SS . Also ,, any new Gerber or sub gerber manufacturer toilet fits perfectly , same size as toilet horn so there is no obstruction . My .02


----------



## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> I have peeled PVC pipe out of a PVC fitting's hub by cutting a notch on the inside of the pipe and then using a screwdriver with a hammer to pop the piece of pipe out of the fitting; but I have also broken the hub of the fitting with that method too....:laughing:
> 
> I bought the Ram bits to make the task easier. The Ram bits work great.


Put a clamp or 2 from a fernco around the hub and it will lessen the chance of cracking the hub. Cuz that sucks


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:
> 
> 
> > I had a call today to replace a closet flange. <snip> *Nice flange replacement -- BUT what did you set the closet with ... WAX. If you did the wax probably will fail, as most could push down into the void below the flange. Through the bolt slots. I in that situation would set on rubber or fill the voids with quick/hard cement. Just food for conversation!*
> ...


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Optimus Primer said:


> Put a clamp or 2 from a fernco around the hub and it will lessen the chance of cracking the hub. Cuz that sucks


Good tip :thumbsup:


----------



## Tim`s Plumbing (Jan 17, 2012)

dplumb said:


> Never seen in MA or had an inspector call me on using a solid PVC closet flange. I honestly prefer them over the stainless ring ones that always seem to rot out.


 I looked it up they must have changed the code here allowing all plastic closet flanges. None of the plumbing supply houses near me carry the all plastic ones and when I was in plumbing school I was taught that they where not up to code. But that was also nearly 20 years ago.


----------



## MDPlumber1977 (Mar 4, 2013)

Tommy plumber said:


> I have peeled PVC pipe out of a PVC fitting's hub by cutting a notch on the inside of the pipe and then using a screwdriver with a hammer to pop the piece of pipe out of the fitting; but I have also broken the hub of the fitting with that method too....:laughing:
> 
> I bought the Ram bits to make the task easier. The Ram bits work great.



I could not agree more!! I have had great success and utter failure with both notching fittings and chipping off of pipe as well as notching pipe and chipping out of fittings. Probably 70/30 success rate. Ram bits are worth there weight in gold!!


----------



## Ghostmaker (Jan 12, 2013)

http://www.siouxchief.com/Drainage/ResidentialDrainage/Closet-Flanges/TKO.JGVEB

http://www.fernco.com/plumbing/wax-free-toilet-seal
The fernco is fantastic for new toilet installs


----------



## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

Well done. All I have to add is a wad of toilet paper in the pipe will catch the stuff that falls in unexpectedly, like the internal cutter.


----------



## suzie (Sep 1, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> Did you know that you can do this a lot easier ..
> 
> You can actually peel the fitting off the pipe .. Make a slice on the fitting to the outside of the pipe ... Take a flat screw driver and hammer and hit the screw drive were the fitting joins the pipe ... The fitting will actually pop right off


 
It call it peeling the banana


----------



## Mags (Mar 11, 2011)

dplumb said:


> Never seen in MA or had an inspector call me on using a solid PVC closet flange. I honestly prefer them over the stainless ring ones that always seem to rot out.


You can use plastic in MA. But per code, the flange must be set on the finished floor. I see flanges set on the sub floor all the time.


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Same here.. Most inspectors want to see the flange screwed to the subfloor for inspection.


----------



## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

Up here code calls for brass screws on a floor flange, but I often use stainless steel screws following the intention of the code rather than the letter of it. Never had an inspector disagree with me on that particular detail.


----------

