# Toilet Leak Lawsuit



## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

Toilet leak leads to lawsuit against manufacturer of American Standard toilets. State Farm, the plaintiff, paid the homeowner over $59,000 for damages to their home from hairline cracks in the toilet created during the manufacturing process.

http://louisianarecord.com/news/269808-toilet-leak-leads-to-lawsuit-against-manufacturer

Pay attention to the name of the law firm representing State Farm. Coincidence? I think not. Lol


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Ransom Pipes. Good name for a lawyer who is suing a mfg. of plumbing products.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

At least they aren't going after the plumber too...
Probably customer supplied...
That's the only way I install Am Std Junk...


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

I've actually run into this very problem before: hairline crack in the bowl's underside. As Redwood says all the time, American Standard = Junk


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Cajunhiker said:


> I've actually run into this very problem before: hairline crack in the bowl's underside. As Redwood says all the time, American Standard = Junk












They could always say it was perfect when it left their factory and it was mis-handled, dropped, knocked around, etc. which caused the crack.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> They could always say it was perfect when it left their factory and it was mis-handled, dropped, knocked around, etc. which caused the crack.


Yea sure it was...:laughing:

The problem I see is they have a number of holes in the casting by design and they apply a crappy patch over the holes...

These patches are usually where they leak...

Take a look at the rear of the Champion bowl at the patch on the trapway and another one on the bottom...


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

I'd same problem with a Kohler years ago, small hole on the trapway made the bowl leaked.


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> They could always say it was perfect when it left their factory and it was mis-handled, dropped, knocked around, etc. which caused the crack.


They could make that argument, but good customer service from the big box store where the customer purchased the toilet dictates that it's easier and cheaper in the long run to do an even exchange for another toilet. Besides, the store gets a credit from their distributor, so it's no skin off their bones.


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## mrjasontgreek (May 21, 2014)

Had a few Gerber vipers leak the same way


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## mrjasontgreek (May 21, 2014)

Had a few Gerber vipers leak the same way. I still think they're a decent toilet though, only ever saw 2 leak, and they were from the same batch


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## Ghostmaker (Jan 12, 2013)

All brands fail occasionally. Defects happen that's why we do a final air test.


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

Ghostmaker said:


> All brands fail occasionally. Defects happen that's why we do a final air test.


Not sure I understand. You saying you air test piping systems after rough in? Or that you air test toilet bowls? Former I am intimately familiar with, latter have never heard of.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Ghostmaker said:


> Defects happen


That's why I install Toto Toilets...

For some odd reason they seem to find defects before I do...

An amazing concept!


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## GrtLksPlbr (Aug 12, 2014)

Gargalaxy said:


> I'd same problem with a Kohler years ago, small hole on the trapway made the bowl leaked.



I had a Kohler bowl with a small hole on the trapway, too. It was probably around 2006-2007.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

I had a new kohler leak due to a hole in casting I belive it was siliconed by kohler and its part of the manufacture process. It wasent cracked at all. We stick our necks out on every job we do, thank god the manufacture was responceble and not the plumber. Even if we install owner provided material we can still be liable . We are being paid to do a job we have a duty to inspect and reject crappy (no pun intended) material and its real easy to point the finger to the man that installs it. When a homeowner files a claim the insurance company will pay them but try to recapture thier loss from whoever they can get paid from and it is just as easy to sue the manufacture , the plumbing company , general contractor, mayby even the store as it is to just sue one of them. a 50,000 dollar leak isnt rare. people in fire and water damage make probebly more off this stuff than fires.


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

There is goes one reason why we are insured. I hate leaks at the same time they are my best friend. Only a plumber will know what I mean.


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## HonestPlumb (Jan 25, 2015)

mrjasontgreek- I agree, the Gerber's are good inexpensive toilets. I try to push Toto's, but there prices are getting crazy. They do have a good flush. Starting with the G-max's. I won't supply a American Sub-Standard or Kohler anything. Amazing how I can still tepair 1940 A/S tub and shower valves. Anything after 1980, not worth repairing. To bad they bought out Jado, another high end company that is going to be junk in 10 years.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

GrtLksPlbr said:


> I had a Kohler bowl with a small hole on the trapway, too. It was probably around 2006-2007.


We had several around the same time period. Best part is that the H.O. purchased from Lowes and had to pay us twice.


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## HonestPlumb (Jan 25, 2015)

Phat Cat- That is the only way to go these days, if they supply it then they are responsible if it has to be repaired or replaced ! If I supply it I stand by it for a year. They pay full retail if I supply it. Once in a while if it is a loyal customer (a term that is not used very often anymore) I will give them a little off if I supply it. It has turned into the lottery mentality out there, especially with the lawyers that will take a case on contingency. They don't charge unless they win. What does the person suing have to loose ? They should make them pay for the legal fees of the person suing if they loose ! You have to sue them for that ! Frigging lawyers, they are the only ones that will always win, even if they loose they still get paid !!!


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## HonestPlumb (Jan 25, 2015)

The cost of Insurance is going to kill any of us that are small. It is almost impossible to justify the cost if you only have one other person. You need at least three more to offset the cost of Liability, Commercial Auto and Workers Comp. , and whatever Medical you might offer. When I started, Medical insurance benefit was always included 100%. Now, your lucky to find someone that will pay 20-30% of the premium. I know when I had 6 guys about 5 years ago I had to stop paying 50%. Now I can't even pay 20%, It is impossible. The Insurance companies (AKA, Legal Crime) make it impossible to even come close to turning a profit. If I had what I paid out in Insurance and Income taxes in the last 30 years, I would seriously be a millionaire !!!! And Retired ! I will wind up kicking the bucket under someone's sink ! No pun intended !


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## srloren (Nov 19, 2014)

HonestPlumb said:


> The cost of Insurance is going to kill any of us that are small. It is almost impossible to justify the cost if you only have one other person. You need at least three more to offset the cost of Liability, Commercial Auto and Workers Comp. , and whatever Medical you might offer. When I started, Medical insurance benefit was always included 100%. Now, your lucky to find someone that will pay 20-30% of the premium. I know when I had 6 guys about 5 years ago I had to stop paying 50%. Now I can't even pay 20%, It is impossible. The Insurance companies (AKA, Legal Crime) make it impossible to even come close to turning a profit. If I had what I paid out in Insurance and Income taxes in the last 30 years, I would seriously be a millionaire !!!! And Retired ! I will wind up kicking the bucket under someone's sink ! No pun intended !


Sad to hear and read... I hate Insurance companies that rip everyone off. They are in bed with the government. One of the great downfalls of our Republic is that our representatives don't represent the folks. Bankruptcy is what they cause and the folks have to pay for it in higher and higher premiums. When is the last time your insurance rates went down? My point is made. They are ruining our ability to compete in business and therefore in the world. Our system must be changed before it is too late.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

Well invest all your money in insurance companys and get Rich rather than complain about them. Or close your bank account hide your money , dont waste money on buisness lic, taxes what ever. work only for cash get free medical food stamps subsidized rent etc. even free college for the kids and clear drains for 50 bucks a pop. never mind plumbing codes just slop it in and get npaid. 
Seriously Insurance company are public and belive it or not they too got costs. They have a lot of fraud commited against them by people that say how crooked the companys are. Come on guys grow up, Rates go up for a reason other wise just start your own company if you think its just like stealing and get Rich


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## srloren (Nov 19, 2014)

JP my complaint about Insurance companies goes back to the late 80's and early 90's in Houston TX, when the Savings and Loans ripped off the public (and the government turned a blind eye towards the problem) with bad management of portfolios, even illegal management. A few went to jail but the public paid the price in reduced value of their homes. Many walked as they did in the most recent crisis. Insurance Companies were buying up every piece of property for pennies on the dollar because they had a steady flow of income that allowed them to invest. I saw commercial properties selling for 10 cents a square foot and very few citizens could afford. I saw 3 bdrm Condos selling for $13,000.00. Property values went down by 80$ or more in many areas. I created a depression and few folks had spendable dollars to invest at these low prices, not knowing how low they were still going. It was a scarey time in America. The insurance companies made billions of dollars when the economy finally got back on track. In the mean time premiums continued to escalate and have not stopped to this day. When folks could not pay their monthly mortgage payments and taxes, they finally stopped paying and this caused the crisis to escalate. So do you feel sorry for the poor Insurance companies? I don't think so.
I hope you see my point. It is a short sited Business Man that thinks he can abuse customers and stay in business althought the Internet has created a cheap way to advertise these days...it also allows for bad people to be outed on Forums. Rant over....


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

Sorry for coming back on an old topic but. I agree there are many obstacles for the small buisness including insurance costs and crooked companys. Sure we all get iritated at insurance companys Dentists , Lawyers, many hate cops. I personaly dont view the mentioned in a bad light, and belive there are ligitamate buisnesses and people out there and many of them. I too must pay for their services (and cry doing it). There are many that cheat their way through life and many of us work hard trying to do things right. This forum I belive attracts the latter, We try to live by the rules and learn and share with each other. I know we all need to rant too!


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## HonestPlumb (Jan 25, 2015)

Had it happen to me about 15 years ago. The GD American SubStandard leaked down after the lady left her townhouse for the week end. Ruined a small area of wood foor and some sheetrock ceiling. Lady tried to sue me for $90K ! Said her entire kitchen was destroyed, family heirlooms like a Monopoly gsme got Monopoly game were destroyed. "My" insurance paid her because they were to friggin lazy to go after American SudStandard. They paid her 
$14K !! Then they would not renew me. My company had the same company(which is a well known one) for liability, Work Comp, Commercial Auto, Medical for 6 guys and 6 vans for over 25 years. Not one claim. The agent said to me when I questioned why they didn't renew me was "insurance companies are in business to make money" ! Swear, those were his exact words. I got him to reinstate me. He was going to fax over the Binding paperwork for me to sign. I said what was the premium ? He said he did not know yet !!! Yea, I am going to sign with a company that would not renew me without knowing the premium ! I said to him, by the way, cancel the policy. I already have a new agent. He flipped, saying how hard he had to fight to get me reinstated ! You can imagine how much I paid those SOB's in all those years. They paid out $14K, and wouldn't renew me !!


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## The Plumber Man (Sep 27, 2015)

Cajunhiker said:


> I've actually run into this very problem before: hairline crack in the bowl's underside. As Redwood says all the time, American Standard = Junk


 Pure Garbage specifically made for that special HO that is a true cheapo.


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## BOBBYTUCSON (Feb 8, 2013)

HonestPlumb said:


> mrjasontgreek- I agree, the Gerber's are good inexpensive toilets. I try to push Toto's, but there prices are getting crazy. They do have a good flush. Starting with the G-max's. I won't supply a American Sub-Standard or Kohler anything. Amazing how I can still tepair 1940 A/S tub and shower valves. Anything after 1980, not worth repairing. To bad they bought out Jado, another high end company that is going to be junk in 10 years.


care to explain why no kohler for you ?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

HonestPlumb said:


> Had it happen to me about 15 years ago. The GD American SubStandard leaked down after the lady left her townhouse for the week end. Ruined a small area of wood foor and some sheetrock ceiling. Lady tried to sue me for $90K ! Said her entire kitchen was destroyed, family heirlooms like a Monopoly gsme got Monopoly game were destroyed. "My" insurance paid her because they were to friggin lazy to go after American SudStandard. They paid her
> $14K !! Then they would not renew me. My company had the same company(which is a well known one) for liability, Work Comp, Commercial Auto, Medical for 6 guys and 6 vans for over 25 years. Not one claim. The agent said to me when I questioned why they didn't renew me was "insurance companies are in business to make money" ! Swear, those were his exact words. I got him to reinstate me. He was going to fax over the Binding paperwork for me to sign. I said what was the premium ? He said he did not know yet !!! Yea, I am going to sign with a company that would not renew me without knowing the premium ! I said to him, by the way, cancel the policy. I already have a new agent. He flipped, saying how hard he had to fight to get me reinstated ! You can imagine how much I paid those SOB's in all those years. They paid out $14K, and wouldn't renew me !!












Many people don't realize how costly it is for a small plumbing company to operate. Some of my best customers have been entrepreneurs and others who have run their own businesses. They understand.

I admit that when I worked for other companies, I used to think that the prices were high for some of the services. Now I understand what the boss was up against.

One boss told me that it cost him approx. $65- $70 just to send a man in uniform to someone's door. I worked for that gentleman back in 2002.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

It's a $100 minimum these days.


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## HonestPlumb (Jan 25, 2015)

BobbyTucson- Kohler has always had issues with its fixtures. They make their products hard to work on, and some times impossible. Also, what is up with the tank ball/flapper situation ? There have been some that have not lasted a few years before they discontinue it. Then they cross reference it with another. I have to carry 15 different ones !


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

HonestPlumb said:


> Had it happen to me about 15 years ago. The GD American SubStandard leaked down after the lady left her townhouse for the week end. Ruined a small area of wood foor and some sheetrock ceiling. Lady tried to sue me for $90K ! Said her entire kitchen was destroyed, family heirlooms like a Monopoly gsme got Monopoly game were destroyed. "My" insurance paid her because they were to friggin lazy to go after American SudStandard. They paid her
> $14K !! Then they would not renew me. My company had the same company(which is a well known one) for liability, Work Comp, Commercial Auto, Medical for 6 guys and 6 vans for over 25 years. Not one claim. The agent said to me when I questioned why they didn't renew me was "insurance companies are in business to make money" ! Swear, those were his exact words. I got him to reinstate me. He was going to fax over the Binding paperwork for me to sign. I said what was the premium ? He said he did not know yet !!! Yea, I am going to sign with a company that would not renew me without knowing the premium ! I said to him, by the way, cancel the policy. I already have a new agent. He flipped, saying how hard he had to fight to get me reinstated ! You can imagine how much I paid those SOB's in all those years. They paid out $14K, and wouldn't renew me !!



we have been screwed a few times over the past 20 year for things my employees have done and accidents that were not even our fault... 
\
Once for 15k for a scratched and damaged floor and another time for 22 k simply because we were the last people in a mechanical room and a plug came out of the wall (which should have been a dedicated line) and the grey water backed up into a basement from the septic tank......21k..:blink:.


I honestly dont even worry about it any more... when that insurance company we were with for a long time told us to take a hike and find someone else I just went out and shopped our insurance to a number of places and to my amazement we found a number of them over 10k cheaper a year than we were paying with our "freinds" for the exact same coverage :laughing::yes:....

moral of the story is to shop your insurance out to see if you are being sold a bill of goods or not every few years.... its just wise to do...


as far as paying for medical insurance for my guys that is never gonna happen again....:no::no: that will certainly make you broke and they wont appreciate it anyway if you give them a good policy...

I learned that lesson the hard way...the more you give them thinking they will appreciate it, the more they complain and whine for more..........never ever again


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