# plumbing in a baseboard zone and an infloor zone



## 907plumber (Mar 13, 2010)

Im going to go look at a two zone boiler install tommorow. One zone is for in floor heat the other is for baseboard.

I havent done this before. Ive only ever done baseboard zones.

This guys diagrams make sense http://www.pmmag.com/Articles/Column/69285e1f0bfc7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____

I was thinking of using the setup in figure 2. He is missing a few temp guages though I think. One should be on the return side, one on the supply to the infloor and one on the return of the in floor.

Any paticular mixing valve you guys like ? 

The boiler is going to be a cga6

Any other links to piping diagrams? Weil mclains manuals dont show Hightemp/low temp mixed systems.


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## trick1 (Sep 18, 2008)

Look up Taco "I Series" mixing valves....

I use them on most of my low temp radiant panels an they've been great so far.


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## 907plumber (Mar 13, 2010)

And when it comes to wirining in the circulator for the in floor heat to get it to come on when the zone calls for heat, how would you go about that? Use one of the RIB's or get a zone controller like taco's


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

907plumber said:


> ... He is missing a few temp guages though I think.


You mean thermometers? Thermometers are only there to make stupid inspectors happy. They lag so much that they're completely useless. 

Real hydronic guys check temperature with their well calibrated hands. Seriously! I can touch a pipe that's between 100F and 140F and tell you how hot it is with very good accuracy. Above 140F it's harder to tell - it's just hot - I can tell up to 160F with so-so accuracy. Beyond that I can't tell.  At that point I use an infrared temperature sensor, which only works on *large* chunks of malleable iron, cast iron or (not so good) brass.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

As Futz says, thermometers are a waste of money unless you spend big bucks on proper wells and digital sensors readouts.

Infrared temp guns are cheap these days and read the pex pipe temps well. If you buy one get one with adjustable emissivity to read different materials correctly, like copper or brass. 

Make sure you use a hydronic mix valve, versus a plumbing, and packaged zone pump relays are the way to go for ease and neatness. 

Grundfos put together a nice explanation of systems here:

http://smartgreenbuild.com/blog/download/162/

First link I found


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## 907plumber (Mar 13, 2010)

yeah thermometers... Well im a novice Hydronic guy. I need those!


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

907plumber said:


> Any other links to piping diagrams? Weil mclains manuals dont show Hightemp/low temp mixed systems.


Here's a TECA diagram from a recent system I did of the style you're doing. Click here for a higher resolution copy. If you're using normal zone valves ignore the thermal trap bullcrap - it's not necessary. The check valve on the baseboard loops is usually in the pump (Grundfos), so you may be able to ignore that. Once again, it's not necessary if you're using normal positive-shutoff zone valves.









Oh ya, you'll need the notes page too. Click here for full size:


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## highpoint (Mar 3, 2009)

i prefer to pipe this way to keep it simple
add drain points, valves thermometers or what have you to your own liking. i also like to keep the spirovent as high as possible.

i did this in 2 minutes on paint so bear with me.
.

i also like viessmanns piping diagram with the low loss header


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

Last system I did, boss wanted to keep the radiant Poly B separate from the rest of the system, use a flat plate heat exchanger as the separator with a digital aqua-stat controlling a zone valve on the high temp side was alot more accurate then a standard controller. Was a funny install but did what the customer wanted.


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## Golddog111 (Jan 3, 2012)

highpoint said:


> i prefer to pipe this way to keep it simple
> add drain points, valves thermometers or what have you to your own liking. i also like to keep the spirovent as high as possible.
> 
> i did this in 2 minutes on paint so bear with me.
> ...


But then your zone valves are all over the place instead of nice and neat and inline


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## highpoint (Mar 3, 2009)

Golddog111 said:


> But then your zone valves are all over the place instead of nice and neat and inline


U missed my point. 
Locate whatever u want whereever.
Pay closer attention to the placement Of the closely spaced tees , air separator and main pump.
It's a good config for air removal.

Don't scale my drawing and build it exact. Zone valves would be on the uponor EP manifold for low temp and use inline zone valves for hi.temp if u want. I also prefer uponor there as well compared to the popular Honeywell 1004s


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## Golddog111 (Jan 3, 2012)

highpoint said:


> U missed my point.
> Locate whatever u want whereever.
> Pay closer attention to the placement Of the closely spaced tees , air separator and main pump.
> It's a good config for air removal.
> ...


Oh ok, true true...... But goin by the pic alone....... Lol


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## 907plumber (Mar 13, 2010)

I showed up and had a look see. It's actually all radiant loops. No baseboard. Check out this configuration. Boiler only lasted 12 years and there is corrosion at every joint about.


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## highpoint (Mar 3, 2009)

I would put in the viessmann Vito 100 in this application. Single temp, high efficient and only a few hundred $ more.
Their simple piping diagram will save u lots of headaches as well. 
We can't put in 80%anything in canada.


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## Anonymous (Jan 7, 2012)

highpoint said:


> I would put in the viessmann Vito 100 in this application. Single temp, high efficient and only a few hundred $ more.
> Their simple piping diagram will save u lots of headaches as well.
> We can't put in 80%anything in canada.


That's not true

That only applies to forced air gas fired furnaces

HWT , boilers, unit heater, commercial roof top units and oil fired equipment is excempt


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Anonymous said:


> That's not true
> 
> That only applies to forced air gas fired furnaces
> 
> HWT , boilers, unit heater, commercial roof top units and oil fired equipment is excempt


Yup, they want to force boilers to high efficiency soon, but so far... not. I'm installing an 80% boiler in a house near me in a couple weeks. It's all permitted and just waiting for drywall.


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## Paton plumbing (Jan 3, 2012)

I prefer the IBC 115 over the Veisman 100 . It has an on board controller that allows hot water priority and 3 different temperatures without adding mixing valve they are prioritized with highmass radiant as the lowest it's really user friendly and the factory support was the best I have ever dealt with I can actually call up and ask questions and the tech guy will give me direction on different options . For mixing valves , manifolds and most of there entire line I quite like caleffi .


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## highpoint (Mar 3, 2009)

futz said:


> Yup, they want to force boilers to high efficiency soon, but so far... not. I'm installing an 80% boiler in a house near me in a couple weeks. It's all permitted and just waiting for drywall.


Maybe it's just BC. It's next to impossible to get them from the supplier.
HWT have to be powervented- I know they're lame efficient .
I do 99%new construction so it could be that as well. I was under true impression we just couldn't get them in Canada. I stand corrected. Lol


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

If you still have 80% furnaces in your shop you can install them, and while not the same you could use an 80% boiler with a fan coil if you had to. I did a house a few years ago took out the old furnace use a fan coil with a IBC 150, they were thinking about also adding ice melt for the driveway down the road. 

What's the difference on the new IBC between the 150 and the 115 anything besides btu's?


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## Paton plumbing (Jan 3, 2012)

The Ibc 20-115 is really good for the money especially now that Veismann pricing has gone up . IBC is rated for use with poly b for re and re and also has the same design heat exchanger that triangle tube has been using. At about a grand less with more optioned right out of the box. My personal experience is that the veismann has bad customer support and when I had to deal with the a few years ago I was treated almost like a fool, in the end it was their software that had the issue. With IBC I had a rough ignition on the first 115 I put in and a tech came out to the job and went through it and showed me all kinds of stuff that can be done, fixed the issue and when I was in the area of the factory I stopped in and he showed me a bunch of units being tested and I feel that the product price and support sets it a notch above the rest. The low fire at 20 mbuh where as the veismann 100 with a low fire of 40 mbuh . It is all about preference and I like that I don't need mixing valves or Anything external for domestic priority.
Just my thoughts .


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Paton plumbing said:


> ... I don't need mixing valves or Anything external for domestic priority.


Viessmanns do DHW priority, no problem. No mixing valves required for all-radiant systems.


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