# Why I can't compete



## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

I passed by a newly framed subfloor a couple of blocks from my house this morning just as an Hispanic gentleman was humping a bundle of 10' lengths of 3" plastic DWV off his small pick up (without racks) onto the joists while his amigo was doing what looked like lay out. I wonder if they have green cards. 
What people will do to save a buck.
If only CA had journeyman certification like some other states do. 
I really feel for inspectors who end up being on the job instructors.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

If only the inspectors would just walk off the jobs and put condemned until licensed professional is on site signs!


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

I dont know how other states are, but I can hire a 100 mexicans, as long as they legally work for me, the work is covered by my license , as my employees..


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I dont know how other states are, but I can hire a 100 mexicans, as long as they legally work for me, the work is covered by my license , as my employees..


Around here a journeyman can work for himself, but not hire anyone.
A master can hire as many journeymen as they want.
Apprentices can't work alone and a master can only take on one apprentice for every one journeyman they have. On any given job there has to be at least one journeyman or master for every apprentice there.
You have to keep your journeyman license when you get your masters if you want to continue to work with the tools but holding both licenses doesn't allow you two apprentices, you still only get one.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

bct p&h said:


> Around here a journeyman can work for himself, but not hire anyone.
> A master can hire as many journeymen as they want.
> Apprentices can't work alone and a master can only take on one apprentice for every one journeyman they have. On any given job there has to be at least one journeyman or master for every apprentice there.
> You have to keep your journeyman license when you get your masters if you want to continue to work with the tools but holding both licenses doesn't allow you two apprentices, you still only get one.


is that for union shops? or all shops?


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

^^^ Everything is the same here in WI, except a journeyman cannot work FOR himself. You have to hold a master's to work for yourself and to be able to pull permits. As a J-Man you cannot.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

moonapprentice said:


> ^^^ Everything is the same here in WI, except a journeyman cannot work FOR himself. You have to hold a master's to work for yourself and to be able to pull permits. As a J-Man you cannot.


OK, so in Wi. you have just 1 state license? there arent any jurisdictions that issue master plumbing licenses for their areas, like towns or villages?


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

Correct


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

I have ranted on this subject many times.
It makes me sick to see our pipe trades destroyed by ignorance and incompetence.

CA is a total mess on all fronts


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Fatpat said:


> I have ranted on this subject many times.
> It makes me sick to see our pipe trades destroyed by ignorance and incompetence.
> 
> CA is a total mess on all fronts


well, new york is calis east bookend...I wish there was a state license, but almost every town , city or village can give a plumbing test and issue a license, many are reciprical with other towns , cities and villages, NYC is an animal all its own..the county I live in ( nassau) has about 40 or 50 different building depts and all have there own plumbing license you need to get..and why....REVENUE...they charge plenty just to be able to work in their area..


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

Do you know jnosh?


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

moonapprentice said:


> Do you know jnosh?


He did register a little after jnohs disappeared.....hmmm


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## Workhorseplmg (Apr 10, 2013)

Arkansas was a 1/1 ratio for plumbers till this year. Now you can have 3 apprentices per licensed plumber.


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## Workhorseplmg (Apr 10, 2013)

Well actually since middle of last year.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> is that for union shops? or all shops?


All shops.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Workhorseplmg said:


> Arkansas was a 1/1 ratio for plumbers till this year. Now you can have 3 apprentices per licensed plumber.


That sounds like a disaster.


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## OldNelly (Jun 3, 2015)

Plumbus said:


> I passed by a newly framed subfloor a couple of blocks from my house this morning just as an Hispanic gentleman was humping a bundle of 10' lengths of 3" plastic DWV off his small pick up (without racks) onto the joists while his amigo was doing what looked like lay out. I wonder if they have green cards.
> What people will do to save a buck.
> If only CA had journeyman certification like some other states do.
> I really feel for inspectors who end up being on the job instructors.


Here's what The Government of Alberta says,

"To work as a Plumber in Alberta, a person must be a registered apprentice, an Alberta-certified journeyperson, or hold a valid recognized credential.

Individuals possessing a valid recognized credential in Alberta are eligible to receive a Blue Seal business credential after completing the necessary requirements."

Sucks that a bunch of unlicensed/unqualified individuals can work at the same level as someone who has taken the time and effort to obtain the proper training.


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## alson (Apr 18, 2014)

How's this for stupidity, passed here in Michigan 5-10 years ago.

They created a plumbing contractor license. You do not have to be a plumber to obtain the license, the test is mostly on business issues. You do not ever have to have worked in the trade.

There are also Master, and Journeyman Plumbers license as well as an apprentice registration.

OK here comes the stupid part: The holder of the Contractor license can take out permits, a Master Plumber may not take out permits. A homeowner may take out permits.

So the person with the most experience in plumbing, the Master Plumber, is not able to buy a permit, but the two people with the least (or no ) experience ARE able to obtain a permit.

A Master Plumber may take out the permit if he, she or it also holds the Contractor license. Further more a Contractor must employ a Master Plumber in order to do work. I believe this whole mess was started so that the Big Box stores could legally do plumbing contracting by simply having one of their employees obtain the contractor license.

Rant is over.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

it sounds like wisconsin is the best area for the plumbing trade. we protect our plumbers. we dont have the national code:whistling2:


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

alson said:


> How's this for stupidity, passed here in Michigan 5-10 years ago.
> 
> They created a plumbing contractor license. You do not have to be a plumber to obtain the license, the test is mostly on business issues. You do not ever have to have worked in the trade.
> 
> ...


when I was taking my plumbing exam way back when, there was a guy taking the exam that worked for a company that all they did was have guys take license tests in all states so they could come in and do work, once the plumbing board found this out, he didnt pass....back then you werent told what you got wrong and couldnt question it, or you would never get a license..politics at it best, but it protected the local guys in business, who knows what goes on now..


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

moonapprentice said:


> Do you know jnosh?


That would be a negative, nor was it me in another life...LOL..the population of just my county is 1.4 million people and the adjoining county suffolk has 1.5 million people, lots of plumbers out there..from some of the posts from jnosh, he could be in suffolk county..im in nassau..


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## celtic1 (Dec 16, 2008)

Plumbus said:


> I passed by a newly framed subfloor a couple of blocks from my house this morning just as an Hispanic gentleman was humping a bundle of 10' lengths of 3" plastic DWV off his small pick up (without racks) onto the joists while his amigo was doing what looked like lay out. I wonder if they have green cards.
> What people will do to save a buck.
> If only CA had journeyman certification like some other states do.
> I really feel for inspectors who end up being on the job instructors.


 Vote for TRUMP BROTHER


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## celtic1 (Dec 16, 2008)

*Goverment out of control*

:furious::furious:


ShtRnsdownhill said:


> well, new york is calis east bookend...I wish there was a state license, but almost every town , city or village can give a plumbing test and issue a license, many are reciprical with other towns , cities and villages, NYC is an animal all its own..the county I live in ( nassau) has about 40 or 50 different building depts and all have there own plumbing license you need to get..and why....REVENUE...they charge plenty just to be able to work in their area..


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

.......................


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

celtic1 said:


> Plumbus said:
> 
> 
> > I passed by a newly framed subfloor a couple of blocks from my house this morning just as an Hispanic gentleman was humping a bundle of 10' lengths of 3" plastic DWV off his small pick up (without racks) onto the joists while his amigo was doing what looked like lay out. I wonder if they have green cards.
> ...



Trump will sell you down the river at the first opportunity


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

..................


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> ..................



Settle down Trumpbot. I didn't say I loved Mrs. Clinton.....


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## SHEPLMBR70 (Feb 25, 2016)

We call them pipe jockeys here. Not plumbers.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

rwh said:


> Trump will sell you down the river at the first opportunity


I doubt he could be worse than any career politician out there...and who are you gona vote for?


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

It makes no difference at all what any cities,states,or whatever say you can or cannot do,if they don't enforce their own laws there ain't a dam thing you can do about it,and none of it is enforced!!


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

Trump is no different than Hilary 
Both are rich New York limousine liberals.

Trump just saw a void in the gop and took advantage of the situation.

There is only one conservative in this race, and he has my vote .


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## Qplumb (Dec 19, 2015)

Oh how fun, politics
I would be happy with Cruz or trump either is way better than hillary or Bernie. In fact if your for Bernie we can't be friends:thumbup:


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## celtic1 (Dec 16, 2008)

*I WILL NEVER FORGET Benghazi*

I am a Marine


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

Very interesting post here!

So just because they look Hispanic and pulled pipe out of a pick up it means #1 they have no lic. and #2 they have no clue of what they are doing? What if that's the truck used to pick up materials. Lets say #1 and #2 are correct they have no lic. and have no idea of what they are doing. I had no idea that by how you look you can tell if they have a lic. If you verified this and you know for sure #1 and #2 are correct I apologize.

With the above said the problem is not the hispanic, the black, the white the red etc. The real problem is the agencies not enforcing code and simply not doing their job is as simple as that. The solution is simple as well but it doesn't get done.

#1 If the inspector will red tag the job as soon as he finds there is no licensed professional at the job. This won't happen

#2 If the CSLB would do their job and actually go after the unlicensed activity reported by the inspector on #1. This will help as well!

#3 if the supply house will only sell to the lic. professional this will also eliminate this.

#4 The big box stores also forced to sell to lic. professionals will eliminate the problem. You can't buy certain ac supplies at home depot they should do the same for water heaters.

#5 Is Trump going to pass al law to help plumbers. I don't know but is most likely not even on his list.

Just saying I'm not defending anyone here. But you can't judge a book by its cover...


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Illinois

State issued plumbing license, after 2,000 hours and passing a test.

At least on individual must hold a State Plumbing Contractors License, which the holder must also hold a plumbing license in Ilinois.

The Country of Chicago is a little different.

Licensed plumber may have up to 2 apprentices, not more than 1 with under 2 years. Third year apprentice can work by themselves, but licensed plumber or plumbing contractor is supposed to inspect their work prior to calling for an inspection.

Every submersed sprinkler company, must have a licensed plumber on staff when they exceed X amount of people employed. The licensed plumber or apprentice plumber must install the back flow preventor. A licensed CCCDI individual must test the RPZ.

Now for Roofing in Illinois. An individual who installs roofing must be licensed in Illinois. License issued by the department of professional regulation. Limited & unlimited license. Anyone else working as an employee of that company or individual holding the license may install roofing. Not card to prove anything unlike plumbers who must be able to produce a license issued by the State.

We see storm chaser come around and hire out as "contract labor" to licensed roofing contractors. "Against the Law", hardly an enforcement. I can't ask for a pay slip to verify who ever is onsite is even an employee.

If the worker offers the information that they are not an employee. I create a complaint report with the DPR, which eventually gets looked into and the licensed roofing contractor gets his hands slapped, a few have had suspensions.


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

GAN said:


> Illinois
> 
> State issued plumbing license, after 2,000 hours and passing a test.
> 
> ...


Thank you for doing your job! Much respect to you I mean it. :thumbsup: 

Truly wish everyone else did the same.


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## Ghostmaker (Jan 12, 2013)

cjtheplumber said:


> Very interesting post here!
> 
> So just because they look Hispanic and pulled pipe out of a pick up it means #1 they have no lic. and #2 they have no clue of what they are doing? What if that's the truck used to pick up materials. Lets say #1 and #2 are correct they have no lic. and have no idea of what they are doing. I had no idea that by how you look you can tell if they have a lic. If you verified this and you know for sure #1 and #2 are correct I apologize.
> 
> ...


It is not physically possible to catch those who do plumbing without a contractors license Unless the folks who notice place the first phone call.
My inspection area is huge.


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## Finnegans'_way (Apr 1, 2016)

In CT we have an 8000 hour apprenticeship, which includes 1000 hours of classroom instruction. After you get a journeyman license (actually here in the great blue Northeast the license says journey PERSON, lest we offend the 0 female plumbers in the state) we have to go to continuing education every other year. CT is tough on unlicensed contractors but not becaus3 they care about the consumer. They want thier license fees, permit fees and tax revenue.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

cjtheplumber said:


> Very interesting post here!
> 
> So just because they look Hispanic and pulled pipe out of a pick up it means #1 they have no lic. and #2 they have no clue of what they are doing? What if that's the truck used to pick up materials. Lets say #1 and #2 are correct they have no lic. and have no idea of what they are doing. I had no idea that by how you look you can tell if they have a lic. If you verified this and you know for sure #1 and #2 are correct I apologize.
> 
> ...


You don't need a plumbing license in the state of CA to plumb. A B-1 will do if the job also entails carpentry. Plus, many bottom feeding C-36 license holders have no compunction when it comes to hiring people they can pay minimum wage. 
All an installation has to do is pass the minimum standard, and if it takes 5 trips to the job by the inspector, so be it. The train already left the station on this one. 
Besides, basic plumbing skills are not that hard to learn. I bet you could train a chimpanzee to do many of the tasks. 

You are right, I don't know for sure. But, from what I've seem at my local supply houses, the Hispanics who trade there drive trucks festooned with plumbing tools, just like every other truck in the parking lot. The guy I saw was in a generic pick up without any plumbing tools evident and either on his person or his vehicle and the pipe was 10' lengths bundled with duct tape, a la HD.
Now, I would like to ask you a question;
If you were to come across this same scenario tomorrow, would you be willing to make a wager that they are not as they seemed to me? If so, tomorrow at 7 AM I'll be eagerly waiting to pick you up at the supply house.


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

Plumbus said:


> You don't need a plumbing license in the state of CA to plumb. A B-1 will do if the job also entails carpentry. Plus, many bottom feeding C-36 license holders have no compunction when it comes to hiring people they can pay minimum wage.
> All an installation has to do is pass the minimum standard, and if it takes 5 trips to the job by the inspector, so be it. The train already left the station on this one.
> Besides, basic plumbing skills are not that hard to learn. I bet you could train a chimpanzee to do many of the tasks.
> 
> ...


Won't work we don't live in the same town and I won't make any bets on something I can't check. I'm from Hispanic roots and your post is kind of offensive to me personally. The reason is you point your fingers at Hispanics. I know folks from all walks of life taking away from our trade I'll leave it at that. But I also know the main problem is the enforcing agencies not enforcing as they should. 

I hate it as much as you do. Again I'm from Hispanic roots and I'm a proud American. Many here know me and know I have some unmarked trucks, as well as marked trucks with full wraps. Me driving an unmarked truck doesn't mean I don't have a lic. or don't know what I'm doing.

I respect everyone the same no matter your color or how you look. You are who you are and everyone is entitled to their opinion. You think what you want and do what you want it is what it is. I do the same.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

cjtheplumber said:


> Won't work we don't live in the same town and I won't make any bets on something I can't check. I'm from Hispanic roots and your post is kind of offensive to me personally. The reason is you point your fingers at Hispanics. I know folks from all walks of life taking away from our trade I'll leave it at that. But I also know the main problem is the enforcing agencies not enforcing as they should.
> 
> I hate it as much as you do. Again I'm from Hispanic roots and I'm a proud American. Many here know me and know I have some unmarked trucks, as well as marked trucks with full wraps. Me driving an unmarked truck doesn't mean I don't have a lic. or don't know what I'm doing.
> 
> I respect everyone the same no matter your color or how you look. You are who you are and everyone is entitled to their opinion. You think what you want and do what you want it is what it is. I do the same.


I know Hispanics, or any other immigrants, aren't the problem. Greed is. It is a characteristic the human race could do with a lot less of. If they were properly trained and paid a living wage they would be as competent as any other. And, beware of asking your government to enforce anything. 
As Will Rogers so aptly said; "*Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for."

*As for my not judging a book by it's cover, from my 60 years of hanging around turd herders I'd say those two guys would sooner pass for city council members than for plumbers. I didn't say the truck was unmarked, I said it had no signs of ever having had a close encounter with a genuine plumbing tool. http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/w/willrogers128073.html


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

cjtheplumber said:


> Very interesting post here!
> 
> So just because they look Hispanic and pulled pipe out of a pick up it means #1 they have no lic. and #2 they have no clue of what they are doing? What if that's the truck used to pick up materials. Lets say #1 and #2 are correct they have no lic. and have no idea of what they are doing. I had no idea that by how you look you can tell if they have a lic. If you verified this and you know for sure #1 and #2 are correct I apologize.
> 
> ...



I would like to comment on some points with the situation in my area. I highlighted in red the parts I want to talk about.

1) The licence inspector will usually only go on a commercial job site if there is a complaint filed. They will check your competence trade certificate, give a around 300$ fine to an employee without a certificate, maybe 1000$ to the employer. This happens a lot with painters, drywallers/jointers. The guys leave the job site only to return in the evening, weekend and back again 2 days later. Sometimes the inspector will be back again and catch them 2-3 times... These guys don't pay the fines.

3) In our province it is now illegal for supply houses to only sell products to professionals. The supply houses now hates this new law because a few years back that's how it was. Now anyone can go in and buy materials even if the guy is an illegal contractor or diy.
Any home owner is allowed by law to do his own plumbing, they can't do it for a neighbor. A landlord cannot do plumbing for his tenants. This law is not enforced.

A) Anyone who carries materials to a job site has to have lettered truck showing the business name. A plumbing contractor needs by law to have the master plumber association logo on EACH of his trucks plus company name. Anyone can take a picture for proof if he doesn't fit the criterias and the construction contractor will be fined by the association.

B) In the province across the river, You can not unload gas piping or fittings from the delivery supply house truck if you are not a certified gas pipe fitter! If the delivery guy, a plumbing apprentice gets caught he gets fined.


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## JohnnieSqueeze (Mar 23, 2016)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> it sounds like wisconsin is the best area for the plumbing trade. we protect our plumbers. we dont have the national code:whistling2:




Is there any reciprocity to Illinois? Im right on the border


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

JohnnieSqueeze said:


> Is there any reciprocity to Illinois? Im right on the border
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes there is. If your State reciprocates with Illinois and they have a similar program. You may need to just take the test.

http://dph.illinois.gov/sites/default/files/forms/plumber-license-examination-application-042616.pdf

Website with forms.
http://dph.illinois.gov/topics-services/environmental-health-protection/plumbing


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## fixitright (Jan 5, 2012)

The $99.00 main line cleaning guy is back in my area.

Must have gotten out of Rehab or jail.

The tire kickers are on a rampage.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

fixitright said:


> The $99.00 main line cleaning guy is back in my area.
> 
> Must have gotten out of Rehab or jail.
> 
> The tire kickers are on a rampage.


We have 17$ drain cleaners here. They come fully equipped, knockoff drano in one hand and spray foam in the other! :vs_karate:


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## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

Who is jnosh.... I am jnohs. And I am not around because plumbing mafia on face blows this place apart. And I c shtrunsdwnhill is still talking @#$% and still around. [email protected]#


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

God damn he's back! :devil3:


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

jnohs said:


> Who is jnosh.... I am jnohs. And I am not around because plumbing mafia on face blows this place apart. And I c shtrunsdwnhill is still talking @#$% and still around. [email protected]#


You been sucking back on grandpa's cough medicine? I recall plenty of members offering you positive criticism. Your choice not to accept it. As far as srdh goes, he's been mia for quite some time.


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