# Remember, Plumbing is "The art of installing.... etc, etc, etc,"



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Once you lose the art, 







 






 
it's disappointing like a missed fart.


Before I get free criticisms, Expansion tank will be strapped. those 3/4" DUF's have sleeves *plastic dip tubes inserted 2" into the dielectric nipples* to keep those unions from clogging up. Saaaaaweet. 

Customer wouldn't go for the idea of replacing the water heater because it's not leaking. It might be running on 4 cylinders on an 8 cylinder motor but people can't see the efficiency....all they know is it is pumping hot water.

If you look real good at the pictures...there is plenty of job security sitting in that structure. The closet arm is wrapped with 12 rolls of electrical tape, the vertical is wrapped with probably a mix of duct tape AND electrical tape,,,speshal. :no:










 

This is an "after" picture, not a before. This was 2 repairs done at the same time, the reason why there's 2 pressure couplings on the pipe in front of the pool heater. I should of put my sticker on the pipe. 

The check valve was cracked because the pool company who winterized it, didn't do their job. Why I got involved I don't know....that was a judgement call on the customer's part. 

After I replaced the check valve, I noticed the condition of the pipe going to the left and around the heater and suggested to the customer that he ought to let me take care of that as well, since I had the extrie parts! A good plumber will always have more than he needs, even though it costs more for the materials.


I took all kinds of pictures of what I did yesterday. People like to see the work you do, not just talk about it. A camera is a tool just like the internet is to me. It makes me money, it allows others to see what they are purchasing before they buy. Is it a lot of work? You betcha but I got jobs I did 7 years ago that every now and then, clinch the sale on another job I end up doing. 


*BAM!!! *


*Take that home to mama :blink:*


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

*Here's where years of experience pay off*

I do not have a tape measure

and 

I do not have a level when I do these types of jobs. Is some of the piping a little off level? eh...maybe. But for the most part I tweak the whole thing in to make everything around it look bad, my stuff look good. 

That's one part of my eyesight I have left that's worth a damn.



That damn T&P had a plug in it when I arrived. I immediately told the two son in laws to get it out of there before the water heater explodes. Thankfully the electric was turned off for the winter, given the mother is a snowbird that lives in florida.

The husband died years ago, he was a machinist and this will spur a new topic when I get time. It's a discussion about attitudes of what people do in their home.


----------



## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

It looks alot better now:thumbsup:


----------



## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Roast Duck, it looks good. Almost like a pro did the work. :laughing:


----------



## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

Why would u change a tag if u can still see the energy guide sticker!!!


----------



## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Whats with all the duck tape on that soil stack?


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> Roast Duck, it looks good. Almost like a pro did the work. :laughing:


 


I know...I just got my green card last week!


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

njoy plumbing said:


> Why would u change a tag if u can still see the energy guide sticker!!!


 

You gotta explain that one to me because "me no understand" the question.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Whats with all the duck tape on that soil stack?


 


Um....something that a nail or soft, gentle slice of a utility knife will make leak and DAMN! we need a plumber again!~ 



If I put my hand on it...have of that piping is gone on one side. :blink:


----------



## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Roast Duck said:


> You gotta explain that one to me because "me no understand" the question.


Me either. but then again, im just RSP.


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Beautiful work. I would of done it almost as nice, but not quite that artistic.
Here is one of mine.









Notice the thermostatic mixing valve. I replaced a 120 gallon electric with an 80, which saved a ton of money. Then I cranked the heater up to 140 degrees and colled it down with the mixing valve to 125. The temperature at the upstairs bathtub is exactly 120 and fills up the giant whirlpool nicely.


----------



## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

how in earth do you put in piping without aleast a tape..?? are you trying to say you eyeball the length?


----------



## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

by the way thats a clean rework there..:thumbup:


----------



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Very nice work Mr. Roast Duck, but how the hell did you get in my basement without me knowing it? :laughing:

Thumbs up, very professional.:thumbup:


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Plumbworker said:


> how in earth do you put in piping without aleast a tape..?? are you trying to say you eyeball the length?


I'm dead serious when I made that statement. Of course I'll use a piece of copper and hold it by marking by finger placement and then put the cutter to it.


That using the tape measure and using a pencil or marking utensil is just one step that is a pain in the ass when you're running copper. Just roll with it and if it is too long, cut it again. Rarely do I have to cut twice but when I'm working tired I definitely start cutting twice.

I can eyeball a lot better than using a level. I hand bend piping sometimes to get it to look straight as well. Don't always think that everything you put in your hands is uniform...usually isn't. 


I wish there were less tools in working with copper but I love the finished product of workmanship when it's done. Thanks for all the comments so far! I'll be taking my second year apprenticeship later this month!~


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Roast Duck said:


> I'm dead serious when I made that statement. Of course I'll use a piece of copper and hold it by marking by finger placement and then put the cutter to it.
> 
> 
> That using the tape measure and using a pencil or marking utensil is just one step that is a pain in the ass when you're running copper. Just roll with it and if it is too long, cut it again. Rarely do I have to cut twice but when I'm working tired I definitely start cutting twice.
> ...


 
I rarely measure either...


----------



## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

Expansion Tanks should always be installed so the hang down below the piping, like Service Guy has his in his picture above. If they are orientated on their side you have an air pocket in there, and on their side or straight up there is a chance that there is air in there that is not letting the water get in contact with the bladder which overtime apparently the bladders dry out and crack, or so I am told.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

http://www.flexconind.com/pdf/wh-whv_install.pdf

http://www.amtrol.com/pdf/9015-087revDTXT.pdf

http://www.zurn.com/operations/wilkins/pdfs/installation/iswxtp.pdf << *




Might be onto something there Scott. 


All of them "show" the downward position. The one I put an asterik next to was one showing the side installation.


My thoughts would be...what is the difference between them and a air chamber that slowly fills over a few weeks? I can understand the pocket of air theory real well.......but that bladder is fully pushed to the threaded port when empty. I don't know what creates the force to move that bladder first; the air or the water in the lines.

We need a video camera inside one of them. Good points taken however. 

I've installed them numerous ways.....but most times sideways and top up. Never have I failed an inspection but I'd like to see more info on the method.


----------



## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Duck ,

Was that main line coming in 3/4" and they immediately reduced it to 1/2" ?? 

After shots are some NICE work !

Cal


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

The expansion tank can be installed in any position.

I like them hanging down for one reason...

When it dies and it's full of water the tank is a lot less messy when it holds onto the water while your taking it off...:thumbup:


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Tight work. I have to ask though, how is that saving any money? That would cost more money because your standby losses are going to be higher now due to increased delta T.



service guy said:


> Beautiful work. I would of done it almost as nice, but not quite that artistic.
> Here is one of mine.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Cal said:


> Duck ,
> 
> Was that main line coming in 3/4" and they immediately reduced it to 1/2" ??
> 
> ...


 


Yes. They used a brass compression coupling that was leaking as well. 

I had to take my diamond angle grinder and score the brass ferrule carefully to get it off the pipe without damaging that last 1.5" sticking through the wall, then sweat a 90 on it and turn it up. The pipe was really screwed up since they hard cranked that coupling to make it stop leaking.

One of the siblings called up impressed in how well it looks...but they haven't received a bill yet, either. :blink:


It's gonna hurt! It's gonna hurt. :yes: "Hopefully I can get the option to switch that tank out, correct that ridiculous wiring issue. There is just so much wrong with this house that the dangers are unreal with what this guy did to the home to save a buck. It's truly sad IMO. That poor widow is sucked into a rut she can't get out of.


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Protech said:


> Tight work. I have to ask though, how is that saving any money? That would cost more money because your standby losses are going to be higher now due to increased delta T.


First of all the price of the heater. A 120 gallon is a LOT more money than an 80. Secondly, they don't need to store that much hot water. They can simply store it hotter and then mix it when they need to fill up the tub.

As far as energy costs, you are probably right, the hotter temp. water for the smaller tank probably costs just as much to heat as lower temp. water for a larger tank.

But they saved money (and space which was also a factor) upfront using the smaller tank.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

My point is they saved a few bucks upfront but are paying much more in the long run. You also have to factor in the cost f the valve and servicing it.

just my .02. not bashing:thumbsup:. again, goodlookin work:thumbsup:


----------



## M5Plumb (Oct 2, 2008)

That's a good looken soyal staack thaer....:laughing:



Roast Duck said:


> Um....something that a nail or soft, gentle slice of a utility knife will make leak and DAMN! we need a plumber again!~
> 
> 
> 
> If I put my hand on it...have of that piping is gone on one side. :blink:


----------



## Double-A (Aug 17, 2008)

Protech said:


> Tight work. I have to ask though, how is that saving any money? That would cost more money because your standby losses are going to be higher now due to increased delta T.


A pint is a pound the whole world around. 

80 gallon heater holds 668 pints or 668 lbs of water.
120 gallon heater holds 1002 pints or 1002 lbs of water.

If we assume a 60 degree input temperature and a target of 140 degrees on the 80 gallon, and 120 on the 120 gallon, you will use 6,680 more BTU to heat the 120 gallon tank, or approximately 6.68 cubic feet more of natural gas.

Now, since we're delivering 120 degree water, the amount of energy in the 140 degree water is greater, therefore, a lower draw and a lower amount needed to recover.

The 80 gallon is a more economical choice all the way around.


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Double-A said:


> A pint is a pound the whole world around.
> 
> 80 gallon heater holds 668 pints or 668 lbs of water.
> 120 gallon heater holds 1002 pints or 1002 lbs of water.
> ...


Thanks!
That was my original idea. I didn't do all the math, it just made common sense to use the 80 with a mixing valve rather than the oversized 120.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Not following your math double a. Can you show me how you came up with that?



Double-A said:


> A pint is a pound the whole world around.
> 
> 80 gallon heater holds 668 pints or 668 lbs of water.
> 120 gallon heater holds 1002 pints or 1002 lbs of water.
> ...


----------



## Double-A (Aug 17, 2008)

Protech said:


> Not following your math double a. Can you show me how you came up with that?


A BTU is the amount of heat required to raise one pound of water one degree Fahrenheit at one atmosphere of pressure.

A pint of water weighs approximately one pound. Therefore, a BTU can also be described as the amount of energy required to raise one pint of water one degree Fahrenheit.

There are 8 pints to the gallon.

80 gallons of water = 80X8 or 668 pints.
120 gallons of water = 120x8 or 1,002 pints.

For the 80 gallon heater, let's assume we start with 60 degree incoming water temperature and a we have a target temperature of 140 degrees, as we're going to use a tempering valve to reduce to the desired supply temperature of 120 degrees.

So, 140 - 60 = 80. So we need to raise 668 pints of water 80 degrees, how many BTUs will this require?

80x668= 53,440 BTU.

Now for the 120 gallon heater, let's assume the same 60 degree incoming water temperature and we have a target of 120 degrees. This is also the desired supply temperature.

So 120 - 60 = 60. So we need to raise 1,002 pints of water 60 degrees, so how many BTUs will this require?

120x1,002=60,120 BTU.

60,120 - 53,440 = 6,680 fewer BTU's required.

Now, if we aim for 120 degree water from the 140 degree output of the 80 gallon tank, we use the formula

% of hot water = (Mixed water temp - cold water temp) divided by (hot water temp - cold water temp)

Or

% of hot water = (120 - 60) / (140 - 60)
% of hot water = 60 / 80
% of hot water = .75 
or 75%

Now... 70% of volume is the industry rule for available hot water from a tank. 

So we can get 84 gallons of usable hot water from the 120 gallons tank and 56 gallons from the 80 gallon tank. But that is before we temper the water from the 80 gallon tank. 

We saw that our % of hot water from the 80 gallon tank was only 75% hot (140 degree water) and 25% cold (60 degree cold water) to deliver 120 degree water. So...

56 + (56 x .75) = available hot water from tempering valve
56 + 42 = available hot water from tempering valve
98 gallons = the amount of 120 degree hot water from the tempering valve when mixed with 60 degree water from the 80 gallon tank.


The 80 gallon not only is more efficient, but it will deliver 92 usable gallons of water verses the 86 usable gallons from the 120 gallon tank.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

The math you show is valid but the only problem is that you are talking about the first time the heater is fired up from cold tank. I was referring to the increased energy loss due to the increase in delta T. Because you must keep the water hotter to get the same amount of volume after mixing, you are losing more btus on standby which ads up to way more cost over the life of the heater than the difference in initial price between the two heaters plus mixing valve. You also have to add the cost of servicing the mixing valve in to the life cycle cost analysis as well as decreased tank life due to more scale formation which further decreases energy efficiency.

With solar it’s a bit different as your fuel costs are zero. In that case I install a mixing valve all the time due to the very common problem of over heating.

Makes sense?


----------



## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

140 degrees is harder on a tank as well than 120 degrees.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Scott K said:


> 140 degrees is harder on a tank as well than 120 degrees.


 
Are you saying that from a mineral buildup point of view, or metal fatigue?


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Mineral buildup and chemical attack


----------



## Double-A (Aug 17, 2008)

Double-A said:


> % of hot water = (Mixed water temp - cold water temp) divided by (hot water temp - cold water temp)
> 
> Or
> 
> ...





Protech said:


> The math you show is valid but the only problem is that you are talking about the first time the heater is fired up from cold tank. I was referring to the increased energy loss due to the increase in delta T. Because you must keep the water hotter to get the same amount of volume after mixing, you are losing more btus on standby which ads up to way more cost over the life of the heater than the difference in initial price between the two heaters plus mixing valve. You also have to add the cost of servicing the mixing valve in to the life cycle cost analysis as well as decreased tank life due to more scale formation which further decreases energy efficiency.
> 
> With solar it’s a bit different as your fuel costs are zero. In that case I install a mixing valve all the time due to the very common problem of over heating.
> 
> Makes sense?


Nopers.

Energy is energy. Unless you have less insulation in the 80 gallon, then you're going to be doing the exact same thing over and over to each tank, no matter what the set point temp is. You're only going to lose so much heat to the ambient surroundings before the t/stat calls for heat. 

We've already seen that from a given starting point of 60 degrees, the smaller heater going to a higher set point still uses less energy.

Now, you're going to toss out the arguement that 120 gallons of water has more potential energy, and therefore takes longer to trip the t/stat set point and call for more heat. I agree, but when it does, it will require more energy than the 80 gallon to recover to its lower set point of 120 degrees. 

As for higher temps causing a faster breakdown of materials, I agree, but we can all agree that unless you're installing a commercial 120 gallon heater, the quality of materials will be just enough (hopefully) to make it a year or three past the warranty period anyway.

So, your client is still looking at a replacement cost once again for each heater. 

My money is still on the 80 gallon. Sorry. I don't buy the higher initial costs being offset by the standby loss alone over the life of the heater making the 120 a better choice. It just don't add up.

That 120 has a long row to hoe to beat the lower draw down on the 80 gallon heater with a higher set point. The 25% more available draw down is a big hurdle to overcome.

Also, I haven't bought an 80 or 120 gallon heater in a while, but I'm willing to bet that the tempering valve and the 80 gallon still cost less to purchase than just the 120 gallon heater.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

This really isn't that complicated. If you draw off 1 gallon of 120F water from one tank or the other its' the same amount of btu use. The difference is the storage temperature in the tank. Heat loss is not a linear process. The hotter something is, the more btus will be lost over a period in time. 

Your right about the loss thru the tank being minimal but even minimal amounts add up over the years. Futhermore, the losses from the copper pipes in the top of the tank can be quite a bit due to convection
(even if heat traps are installed) 

A loss of an increased standby loss of only $5 per month adds up to $600 after 10 years and that doesn't factor in energy cost inflation, nor decreased component life, nor the cost of the mixing valve and the labor to install, nor the cost to service and/or replace it. Am I getting anywhere????

Even with very conservative math it should be obvious that the smaller tank w/ mixing valve has a much higher life cycle cost.


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

So, the bottom line is this: I saved the customer money upfront. And I saved them valuable space in the utility room that they needed. Even if Protech is right and the customer ends up paying more in electrical bills and valve and tank maintenance/replacement over time. Will they notice a $5/month energy bill increase in their 6000 square foot home with heated indoor pool?
And who are they gonna call when the tempering valve needs maintenance, etc.? Who are they gonna remember?...the guy who saved them money upfront and saved space in the utility room using a smaller tank and mixing valve and still fills the giant whirlpool tub just fine.
Energy costs are not a concern to this customer. Otherwise they wouldn't have three water heaters, a steam room and heated swimming pool.:laughing:


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Hey man, I don't have a problem with it. I'm just calling a spade, a spade. You did a good job and gave your customer what they wanted. Nothing wrong with that at all. I'm not trying to attack your work; I was just stirring up some discussion.


----------



## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I just priced a 120 gallon 480 3/phase tank. Almost 5 bills. 120 gallon 220 single phase is about a grand.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

a grand for a 120? pft, what ever. yer gettin hosed buddy.


----------



## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I'll check the quote again, that was memory. Maybe it's 480.


----------



## Double-A (Aug 17, 2008)

Protech said:


> This really isn't that complicated. If you draw off 1 gallon of 120F water from one tank or the other its' the same amount of btu use.


But its not. Its not the same BTU use. The reason it's not is because to get one gallon of 120 degree water at a faucet, I have to draw 1 gallon from the 120 gallon tank, _but only .75 gallon from the 80 gallon tank_. 

I'm using 3 BTU to recover my loss due to draw off for the 80 gallon tank but 4 BTU to recover in the 120 gallon tank.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

OK, we have both setups side by side. We open open a faucet on each and draw off one gallon. we have consumed the same amount of energy and that same amount of energy will now have to be replenished by reheating the water. The only difference is the amount of loss until we do the same thing tomarrow due to stand by.

If you debate this please tell me where the extra energy is going in the 120 gallon setup.


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Double-A said:


> But its not. Its not the same BTU use. The reason it's not is because to get one gallon of 120 degree water at a faucet, I have to draw 1 gallon from the 120 gallon tank, _but only .75 gallon from the 80 gallon tank_.
> 
> I'm using 3 BTU to recover my loss due to draw off for the 80 gallon tank but 4 BTU to recover in the 120 gallon tank.


You forgot to factor in that the smaller gallon loss on the 80 gallon tank is 140 degrees of water. *Either tank will use the EXACT same energy (btus) to produce a gallon of 120 degree water at the faucet.*


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Protech said:


> The only difference is the amount of loss...due to *stand by.*


I have to agree with you here. It makes sense.


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

So if the incoming water temperature is 60 degrees. The 120 at 120 will have to heat up 120 gallons of water 60 degrees. That is 1002 pounds of water heated 60 degrees or 60,120 BTUs.
The 80 gallon at 140 will have to heat 668 pounds of water 80 degrees or 53,440 BTUs.

That is initial startup or when the tanks are fully depleted of hot water. So the 120 at 120 tank simply stores more energy. However, the surrounding ambient temperature is the same either way, and the 140 degree water will cool faster than the 120 degree water, (I think), so that energy losses will be higher in the smaller, hotter tank. While energy usage at the faucet will be the same either way. So Protech is correct in that the smaller, hotter tank will lose more energy over time due to faster heat loss.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Spot on service guy. It's even worse on a gas heater due to the increases surface area on the baffle, and the reduced heat flow into the tank from the hot flue gases (higher temperature gradient=more heat flow, lower temperature heat gradient=less heat flow). Slightly less heat is transferred into the hotter water by the flue gas.

And yes, the hotter something is, the faster it looses heat. Get some steel white hot with a torch then hit it with an IR heat gun reader. You'll notice that initially it losses 100's of degrees each second. As it cools, the rate at which the temp falls slows until you get close to ambient temps. At that point it might take 2 minutes just to change 50 degrees. Heat loss with respect to temp gradient follows an exponential curve not a linear one. Gotta get back to work now.......


----------

