# Is electric tankless WH worth it in this case



## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

I have a friend who has a bad 30 gallon electric tank water heater. He needs it replaced but its out in his farm shop so it does not get used much. He asked me about tankless and I told him a gas one was not going to be worth the cost of install and maintenance so I advised him against it. Normally I would advise against an electric one for a household but since this is not a household and it does not get much use im wondering if it might be one of the few cases where it makes sense?

Question 1: since there is already 240 electric in place is there a need for any electrical work to be done?

Question 2: if no electrical work is needed and it only gets little use would an electrical tankless at en extra cost of $300 be worth it financially over a new 30 gallon?

Question 3: what is your guys final opinion on this scenario?

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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

what is the hot water for? and how much does he need when he uses it? is it just for a sink to wash hands?


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

If whole house-

1)More than likely electrical work will need to be done. Possibly a larger service. 

2) no benefits financially as far as I’m concerned. 

3) my opinion- electric tankless are a problem.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

The Dane said:


> ............
> Question 1: since there is already 240 electric in place is there a need for any electrical work to be done?
> 
> Question 2: if no electrical work is needed and it only gets little use would an electrical tankless at en extra cost of $300 be worth it financially over a new 30 gallon?
> ...




In a case of seldom use an electric tank style water heater is almost always best.



Unless it's right next to the panel I wouldn't bother switching to electric tankless. The last time I looked at the graph for cable size for a 5 gpm tankless electric it was something like 35amps at 240 so 10 or 8awg wire. If you size the tankless for the existing double 30 and likely 12awg wire you'll be woefully under impressed.



The only upside to a tankless would be space and maybe less bacterial buildup. If he has city water or no bacterial issues I would just throw another 30 in there. It's cheaper, deals well with sediment and lime buildup, much easier to fix/replace.


The downsides to the tankless are several. They cost more, they run the elements at much higher temps so they are more prone to burn out and they will build up lime and mineral deposits worse than a gas tankless.





If you change to anything I would go for a 5 or 7 gallon 120v plug in model for handwashing.





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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

The cost would most likely outweigh the benefit.
If it's just for a hand sink, then a little under sink unit might work, but even those need quite a few amps if you want to get a good dose of hot water.


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> what is the hot water for? and how much does he need when he uses it? is it just for a sink to wash hands?


From my understanding its out in the shop on a farm and is only for a bathroom and a sink so no one really takes showers there so basically just the lav and a sink gets a little use.

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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

The Dane said:


> From my understanding its out in the shop on a farm and is only for a bathroom and a sink so no one really takes showers there so basically just the lav and a sink gets a little use.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


if its for a sink just throw in a point of use water heater for the sink, cheap and easy..something like this...

https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-Mini-Tank-Tronic-3000-ES4/dp/B0148O65IE/ref=sr_1_5?crid=1QMNQ6O5RZ9Z7&dchild=1&keywords=point+of+use+hot+water+heater+under+sink&qid=1593996310&sprefix=point+of+use+hot+water%2Caps%2C162&sr=8-5


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-Mini-Tank-Tronic-3000-ES4/dp/B0148O65IE/ref=sr_1_5?crid=1QMNQ6O5RZ9Z7&dchild=1&keywords=point+of+use+hot+water+heater+under+sink&qid=1593996310&sprefix=point+of+use+hot+water%2Caps%2C162&sr=8-5


this sight suxs, you change the text size and links dont show


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

Its my friends farm shop and I believe its just a bathroom and a sink. A small 6 gallon for a hand sink or 2 is not an option as there is a shower in the bathroom. I dont believe anyone uses the shower but its there and I would think OSHA probably would require it to work as they probably have some chemicals sitting around out there.

I am normally not a fan of tankless but thought this might be one of the times it would be a viable option. I have never put in an electric tankless so I did not know if they need any electrical work done or just hook up the existing 240.

I'll just replace it with a new 30 gallon to keep it simple.

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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

The Dane said:


> Its my friends farm shop and I believe its just a bathroom and a sink. A small 6 gallon for a hand sink or 2 is not an option as there is a shower in the bathroom. I dont believe anyone uses the shower but its there and I would think OSHA probably would require it to work as they probably have some chemicals sitting around out there.
> 
> I am normally not a fan of tankless but thought this might be one of the times it would be a viable option. I have never put in an electric tankless so I did not know if they need any electrical work done or just hook up the existing 240.
> 
> ...



I dont think osha cares if its hot water, any emergency shower I installed in the past was cold water, same for eye flushing stations...unless the code has changed .....as long as you have water coming out of the shower that should pass for washing chemicals off in an emergency..but you can call to find out..


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

If you have the power (a small nuclear reactor would suffice) and the money, Sieibel-Eltron makes some units that will handle a shower and a lavy at the same time, maybe even in a Minnesota winter.

https://www.stiebel-eltron-usa.com/


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

heres a bosch whole house for under $400 bucks..for that price or around it, go for it and install a tankless..any reason he wants to change from the 30 gallon tank? if not just install a new one...only reason I would change was if he was running out of hot water..



https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bosch-WH17-WH17-Tronic-6000-C-Whole-House-Electric-Tankless-Water-Heater


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-Mini-T...sprefix=point+of+use+hot+water,aps,162&sr=8-5
> 
> 
> this sight suxs, you change the text size and links dont show





I've installed a number of those as that's what our supply house carries for under 20 gallons and they seem good enough. Just make sure when they leak it's not an issue. I have seen some get installed above the outlet they are plugged into and it's not pretty. One of the reasons I carry outlets and romex.






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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

The Dane said:


> Its my friends farm shop and I believe its just a bathroom and a sink. A small 6 gallon for a hand sink or 2 is not an option as there is a shower in the bathroom. I dont believe anyone uses the shower but its there and I would think OSHA probably would require it to work as they probably have some chemicals sitting around out there.
> 
> I am normally not a fan of tankless but thought this might be one of the times it would be a viable option. I have never put in an electric tankless so I did not know if they need any electrical work done or just hook up the existing 240.
> 
> ...





The 30 gallon tank is the perfect option for this kind of place. Large enough that you can take a decent shower, small enough to put up on a shelf, *and it takes standard parts.*


I really can't see what the objection is to another 30. Going tankless only offers a space savings and has many downsides. Given that you likely have less than 100amp service in the barn anyway tankless electric would be a terrible choice.









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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

The first time your buddy goes to take a shower with a tankless electric sized for the double 30 amp breakers he will regret not getting another 30 gallon tank style.

If you go tankless you'll need to heavily upsize the electrical service, not only from the panel to the heater but likely the line to the barn as well.


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

Thanks for the input on the tankless. The answer was what I had expected. I figured another 30 gal tank was the way to go but wasn't sure if a tankless was in need of any changes to the electrical. 

We went with another 30 gallon tank. After pulling the old one out I found this mouse nest deal and mold so I told him he should take off the sheet rock and clean it up and fix it before we put in the new tank.









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## jakewilcox (Sep 3, 2019)

I personally own an electric tankless at my cabin. IT IS A PIECE OF SCHIT. YOU DO NOT WANT ONE. Also, you will almost surely have to have more electrical work done. Mine runs on three seperate -30 amp breakers. Seriously NOT WORTH IT.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

The Dane said:


> ......After pulling the old one out I found this mouse nest deal and mold so I told him he should take off the sheet rock and clean it up and fix it before we put in the new tank.



You could put the 30 on a shelf and have some easily cleaned space below it :smile:


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

jakewilcox said:


> I personally own an electric tankless at my cabin. IT IS A PIECE OF SCHIT. YOU DO NOT WANT ONE. Also, you will almost surely have to have more electrical work done. Mine runs on three seperate -30 amp breakers. Seriously NOT WORTH IT.


I'm no fan of any type of Electric hot water source unless you have solar panels and you'd rather burn the energy than sell it to your electricity supplier.
However, I can't let the above comment go without a rebuttal.
Like many pieces of equipment, if the product is crappy, that does not mean all 
such products are. Earlier in this thread, I mentioned Steibel Eltron. Their heaters are expensive, they require a whole lot of power, but *they work as advertised*.


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

Here’s the thing- 

The equivalent to a 199000 btu gas tankless would be 58 KW. 

At 240V that would be 242 amps. 

So you start backing up from say a 200 amp service (typical around here) and the reality is you are looking at a fraction of what you could do with gas.


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## CaptainBob (Jan 3, 2011)

Yep, to get the kind of performance out of a tankless electric that would be comparable to gas, you need a lot of power and a lot of $$$$$$$$$$$


Here's a couple of electric tankless I installed a few years ago-











This was in a gym, these are 2 Eemax 480 volt 3 phase 63 kw units. Each one could run 3 showers max, all day long. There were 2 circ pumps and buffer tanks. They decided to go this route because they had the power there but gas was a couple hundred feet away. My opinion I thought they would have been better off to go gas and power vent but whatever it was their money.
These were always burning out elements. I was there every 3 months or so replacing at least one until they went out of business.


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## jakewilcox (Sep 3, 2019)

Plumbus said:


> I'm no fan of any type of Electric hot water source unless you have solar panels and you'd rather burn the energy than sell it to your electricity supplier.
> However, I can't let the above comment go without a rebuttal.
> Like many pieces of equipment, if the product is crappy, that does not mean all
> such products are. Earlier in this thread, I mentioned Steibel Eltron. Their heaters are expensive, they require a whole lot of power, but *they work as advertised*.




Absolutely, positively, fair. I have had two different brands there in the last 5 years and I have this feeling the second is about to go out. You caught me being hateful....


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

jakewilcox said:


> Absolutely, positively, fair. I have had two different brands there in the last 5 years and I have this feeling the second is about to go out. You caught me being hateful....





Two different tankless electrics in five years? Is that lack of durability what we can expect from "They work as advertised"?


My usual work van got 3 new windshields in 6 months, but I am going to guess your water heaters aren't getting pelted by rocks and a turkey at 65+mph. :wink:



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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

skoronesa said:


> Two different tankless electrics in five years? Is that lack of durability what we can expect from "They work as advertised"?




I said one particular brand does, not all.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Plumbus said:


> I said one particular brand does, not all.




I know, I was just busting your balls :biggrin:



Like any other piece of equipment you have to know what you're buying and use it correctly.


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## Paulie B (Oct 22, 2011)

I've installed a dozen or so in the past few years. One contractor I work with loves them. He actually owns an apartment complex with solar. And has a small garage he turned into a shop. He ran some radiant tubs before he re did the concrete floor. And uses a steble eltron to run the radiant heat in his small shop. They do use some serious amps to work though. 

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