# removing old 4" valve question



## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

our shop is working on a 40 year old warehouse that we need to remove an old 4" flanged gate valve and install a new 4 x 1-1/2 for some new work we are doing, and then re-install the old valve.

the 4" valve was installed 40 years ago for "future" work, but they will not allow us to use it for our connection, this is for a school board project, so of course that makes sense to them, WTF.

looking at the picture i posted, water flows from the right.

is there an easy way to remove the existing flange after the valve is removed to install another 4 x 1-1/2 tee for our connection ?

there is only a close nipple between the tee and flange now, and the flange measures about 10" in diameter, so no way i can get a large enough pipe wrench on it to turn it off.

my thought was to just get another 4 x 1-1/2 tee and new flange and remove the ones on there and a few new nipples and start over.

also this is 20 feet in the air and i am not sure how much that valve weighs.

and looking at the picture, the pipe to the left of the open end of the valve is not in the way, it is just the camera angle.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Get a bolt set for the flange or all thread. Put two bolts in flange with shanks goin to the left. Use wrench on bolts to spin off flange Install tee. New nipple and then old flange. Ul need to clean face of flange. And new bolt set a full face gasket orange rubber 

Use grinder with bead brush to clean face of flange and valve Be carefull it prob got asbestos gaskets in it use. Mask


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

A 4 inch flanged gate valve will weigh 110-120 pounds.

Just start twisting it loose at the coupling and let it fall and hit the floor


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Bayside500 said:


> our shop is working on a 40 year old warehouse that we need to remove an old Do the job specs say to take the valve out? May be a blank flange is in order to prevent any one from turning by accident. May be a good welder and a 4x1/2 threadolet is in order for the new connection.Play safe with that valve 20' in the air is no place to have a valve get out of control. How are you going up?


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Use a chain fall.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

You need a scissor lift, chain fall, 2 -48" ridgid pipe wrenches and you should be good to go


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Or take the valve off and get yourself a 4" flanged tee with a 1 1/2" threaded out let and just put the valve back on like they want.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Awesome illusion, looks like the black colored pipe is passing right through the middle of the 4" handle.


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## goob (Dec 29, 2008)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Get a bolt set for the flange or all thread. Put two bolts in flange with shanks goin to the left. Use wrench on bolts to spin off flange Install tee. New nipple and then old flange. Ul need to clean face of flange. And new bolt set a full face gasket orange rubber
> 
> Use grinder with bead brush to clean face of flange and valve Be carefull it prob got asbestos gaskets in it use. Mask


 I would hate to pay the fine on asbestos gasket removal if I got caught taking it off without proper disposal


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I'd just sub the job to Tex and park my lazy arse in a chair to watch the show. :yes:


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

A little heat on that coupling will help it crack loose a little easier after you drop the valve.


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## matkg (Mar 3, 2013)

Or you could split the coupling with a grinder it will come off prety easy


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## dodgefreak8 (Apr 3, 2010)

cut it off and install a 4" victaulic butterfly valve.... or heat and a couple 48's.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

goob said:


> I would hate to pay the fine on asbestos gasket removal if I got caught taking it off without proper disposal


True. Point that out to the owned of the building and say its gonna run up the price maybe they will let you tie on to the valve . Unless u already set a price 
One little gasket ain't gonna hurt any body. But a big fine will


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## ironandfire (Oct 9, 2008)

One possible option is to take the riser clamp off the bonnet and use the weight of the valve itself to help break free either the flange or the flange and nipple from the tee.


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## red_devil (Mar 23, 2011)

You dont need a pipe wrench around the flange to pull it off. Remove valve put two bolts on and spin it. Theres hundreds of ways to do it. Flanged tee, thread cuts, unthreading (20 ft in the air have fun), cut it all out groove in place, rustabout, saddle etc.. but you have to decide whats best for you and cheapest. that valve should be supported better thou. A litle riser clamp on the stem takes minimal weight. That valve only being a baby still probably weighs alot. I'd guess maybe 150 lbs with rust that will be built up in it.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Already told him about the bolts to remove it. But yes the best way for him is the best. The cheapest way is probably the way I described one tee a new gasket and bolt set. 
And some more support like you said 

He just needs a tee in ther. No sense in rebuilding the whole assembly 

Lets not re invent the wheel here guys. Lets just get it done rite!!! My boss says that all the time !!!


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

that looks like fun

dont forget a huge trash can to catch all the water that is going to flood you out when you open up that line


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> that looks like fun
> 
> dont forget a huge trash can to catch all the water that is going to flood you out when you open up that line


Why?

4" Van stone flange 
4x2 bushing
2x3/4 bushing
3/4 Male Adapter 
3/4 Threaded full port ball valve 
3/4 x hose fitting 

However much hose he needs to get to a drain or outside.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Simply drill a mechanical tee behind the existing one and replace the valve that way you do not have to disturb any threaded joints.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Yep, pull a tee as well


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Plumberman said:


> Why?
> 
> 4" Van stone flange
> 4x2 bushing
> ...


 

gosh, you make it sound so easy...

I am impressed.

but I would still have that trash can handy:laughing:


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

PlungerJockey said:


> A 4 inch flanged gate valve will weigh 110-120 pounds.
> 
> Just start twisting it loose at the coupling and let it fall and hit the floor


can't do that as it needs to be re-installed


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

justme said:


> Or take the valve off and get yourself a 4" flanged tee with a 1 1/2" threaded out let and just put the valve back on like they want.


this sounds like the best idea so far, will run it by my bossman


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

goob said:


> I would hate to pay the fine on asbestos gasket removal if I got caught taking it off without proper disposal


so how would i know if it contains asbestos ?


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

Bayside500 said:


> can't do that as it needs to be re-installed


It was a joke


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> True. Point that out to the owned of the building and say its gonna run up the price maybe they will let you tie on to the valve . Unless u already set a price
> One little gasket ain't gonna hurt any body. But a big fine will


job is already underway and was bid, i don't think whoever bid the job ever looked at it though


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> that looks like fun
> 
> dont forget a huge trash can to catch all the water that is going to flood you out when you open up that line


i forgot to check, but i hope the line runs downhill the other way, depends on the roof slope


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

PlungerJockey said:


> It was a joke


i thought so


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

wyrickmech said:


> Simply drill a mechanical tee behind the existing one and replace the valve that way you do not have to disturb any threaded joints.


they make some kinda tee that i can drill into the 4" pipe and bolt onto the pipe to make a 1-1/2" connection ?

this would be the best way it seems, that way i wouldn't even have to mess with the old valve or any old threads.

obviously this is beyond my normal plumbing skills LOL


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

something like this ?

can you use this on domestic water or only fire sprinkler lines ?

http://dar.proflo.com/darmanager/Query?PRODUCT_ID=1772216&USE_TYPE=INSTALLATION


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Check specs. Is it coated. Looks like its just for black pipe


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Check specs. Is it coated. Looks like its just for black pipe


so i need to make sure existing pipe is galvanized and then order the proper tee ?

i will need to scrap off some paint to see for sure what it is.


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## goob (Dec 29, 2008)

you can get them in galvanized


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Bayside500 said:


> they make some kinda tee that i can drill into the 4" pipe and bolt onto the pipe to make a 1-1/2" connection ?
> 
> this would be the best way it seems, that way i wouldn't even have to mess with the old valve or any old threads.
> 
> obviously this is beyond my normal plumbing skills LOL












Just drill the proper size hole hint there is a paper with the tee that tells you what size. For domestic water they do have galvanized tees. This would make it easy you could cut the tee in where it is easiest for your application then remove the valve and replace with a butterfly valve.simple as that


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

If you've got the balls do it "hot"

Hot tapping is where it's at, no interruption in service and you don't even get wet!


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Bayside500 said:


> so i need to make sure existing pipe is galvanized and then order the proper tee ?
> 
> i will need to scrap off some paint to see for sure what it is.


If existing line isn't galv and its black. Then you can't run Dom water through it is the line dom water ?? 
Are ther not spects. ? Demo pages ? Ect ect. Saying how you must do this ??
If not. Atleast make sure a tapping saddle is approved 
I've seen brass tapping saddles before 
Ever done a saddle ??

When I do it I dry fitt saddle with a 12" nipple in the tap I use it to level or plumb the saddle. Then remove it mark your hole then remove saddle you'd a howl saw to cut out hole. Making sure to get the coupon. That's the round piece of metal you will cut out with the saw. Then after you file the edges of hole and clean shavings away. Install tap and nipple and valve. On the nipple between the valve and the tap hang the coupon on some electrical wire. Tie it good so it stays ther. That shows you did not loose it in the system and down the road if ther is ever a flow issue with the line it ... It removes any doubt that the coupon fell in the line and was not removed !!!


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> If existing line isn't galv and its black. Then you can't run Dom water through it is the line dom water ??
> Are ther not spects. ? Demo pages ? Ect ect. Saying how you must do this ??
> If not. Atleast make sure a tapping saddle is approved
> I've seen brass tapping saddles before
> ...


If it is domestic it is more than likely galvanized or brass depending on its age. Steel on domestic is not uncommon above 3in I have seen them the rule is got something to do with water flow. It is very unlikely that is the case here they make a tee for hot taps and that is a preferred option if you can't shut the water off easily but be carful not all mechanical tees will just bolt on before the hole is cut.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

I seriously doubt the MEP Engineer will allow a saddle to be used on that line . Those saddles are designed for underground use, but who knows. I still say remove the valve install a flanged steel 4" X 1-1/2" tee epoxy coated on the inside for domestic use and then reinstall the valve , pretty simple.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

If your worried about draining the line then get a 4" pvc flange and bushing it to 2" install it on the valve before you remove it. Install the appropriate adapter to run a 2 " hose to the nearest appropriate drain that can handle the drainage.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

How come no one mentioned just bolting on a flanged tee?


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> View attachment 27366
> 
> 
> Just drill the proper size hole hint there is a paper with the tee that tells you what size. For domestic water they do have galvanized tees. This would make it easy you could cut the tee in where it is easiest for your application then remove the valve and replace with a butterfly valve.simple as that


These saddles are for fire protection.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

SewerRatz said:


> How come no one mentioned just bolting on a flanged tee?


Its been mentioned , just no know seems to want to do it the easy way.:laughing:


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

justme said:


> Its been mentioned , just no know seems to want to do it the easy way.:laughing:


 
Agreed. I would unbolt the old valve bolt in a flanged tee, rebolt the old valve, then bolt on a 4" flange by 1 1/2" ips plate. easy peasy.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

SewerRatz said:


> Agreed. I would unbolt the old valve bolt in a flanged tee, rebolt the old valve, then bolt on a 4" flange by 1 1/2" ips plate. easy peasy.


Since they are not wanting to let him use the valve that is there it will probably be best not to put it back . Just install the tee and put a 4 x 2 ips plate on the end with a 2" nipple and valve to drain it down if they ever want to expand again. No since in reinstalling an old valve just to it have leak later on.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

If its a 150lb flange it weights about 100 lb. if its a 300 lb it weights 150 lb


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

justme said:


> These saddles are for fire protection.


They are for steel pipe it does not mater what the water serves. Domestic would need the galvanized saddle nothing more.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> They are for steel pipe it does not mater what the water serves. Domestic would need the galvanized saddle nothing more.


Let me rephrase what I stated, you wouldn't catch most plumbing companys here using those to tie in to a domestic line . The times that I have seen it done brass saddles and flanges were used in the ground work I have done and seen put in. The only time I have seen those used is on fire protection. But since he's dealing with a 4" galv steel line and no telling how old it is (40 years is the average service life for galv water lines) maybe a saddle clamp tap would be easier if the pipe can take the clamp and drilling without crushing .


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

I wouldn't use a tap saddle


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I wouldn't use a tap saddle


Personally I wouldn't either. But to each his own.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

To be honest I'd enjoy installing a tee there. I like flanges and big pipe. More of a challenge I miss that kind of work Did this 3" RPZ the other day. it too was 20' up in the air


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> To be honest I'd enjoy installing a tee there. I like flanges and big pipe. More of a challenge I miss that kind of work Did this 3" RPZ the other day. One of the j man didn't know what I ment when I said two hole the tee with the flange it too was 20' up in the air


Nice. Is that a beam clamp on the trapeze?


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

another question, are the bolt hole patterns a standard deal, there are 8 bolts on the existing flange now.

i would assume so, but have to ask LOL

and thanks for all the great advice


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

MTDUNN said:


> Nice. Is that a beam clamp on the trapeze?


Yes it ain't moving ether


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Bayside500 said:


> another question, are the bolt hole patterns a standard deal, there are 8 bolts on the existing flange now.
> 
> i would assume so, but have to ask LOL
> 
> and thanks for all the great advice


If you get the rite flange. They are rated by the psi they can carry 150. 300. 600. Ect ect. Some will mix match. Some won't


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

This shows you the bolt pattern for diff psi rated flange. It's an app I have. The poundage is prob stamped on the flange and valve but the paint won't help you find it


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

*Language being used?*

When I do it I dry fitt saddle with a 12" nipple in the tap I use it to level or plumb the saddle. Then remove it mark your hole then remove saddle you'd a howl saw to cut out hole. Making sure to get the coupon. That's the round piece of metal you will cut out with the saw. Then after you file the edges of hole and clean shavings away. Install tap and nipple and valve. On the nipple between the valve and the tap hang the coupon on some electrical wire. Tie it good so it stays ther. That shows you did not loose it in the system and down the road if ther is ever a flow issue with the line it ... It removes any doubt that the coupon fell in the line and was not removed !!!The piece of metal cut out with a hole saw. You are calling it a coupon ... I never heard that term, is this correct? Webster's does not define it as such.Just wondering ... I've always called it a slug.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Just what I was taught when I did fire protection


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> When I do it I dry fitt saddle with a 12" nipple in the tap I use it to level or plumb the saddle. Then remove it mark your hole then remove saddle you'd a howl saw to cut out hole. Making sure to get the coupon. That's the round piece of metal you will cut out with the saw. Then after you file the edges of hole and clean shavings away. Install tap and nipple and valve. On the nipple between the valve and the tap hang the coupon on some electrical wire. Tie it good so it stays ther. That shows you did not loose it in the system and down the road if ther is ever a flow issue with the line it ... It removes any doubt that the coupon fell in the line and was not removed !!!The piece of metal cut out with a hole saw. You are calling it a coupon ... I never heard that term, is this correct? Webster's does not define it as such.Just wondering ... I've always called it a slug.


It is considered a coupon just like when you tap a sewer main most city's make you show them the coupon that you cut out for the saddle tap same reason.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Yes it ain't moving ether


I ain't judgin' your work, I'm admirin' it.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> To be honest I'd enjoy installing a tee there. I like flanges and big pipe. More of a challenge I miss that kind of work Did this 3" RPZ the other day. One of the j man didn't know what I ment when I said two hole the tee with the flange it too was 20' up in the air


I'm glad I don't have to test that because it would cost them $1000 dollars by the time I had a lift delivered , plus I would write it up every year on the test report as being installed against state code. I'm not putting down your work there's times I would love to install 1 like that. Where I'm at I couldn't get away with it here. TCEQ states it can be no higher than 5' or lower than 2'.


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## red_devil (Mar 23, 2011)

Just about to say 20 ft up is against code. And I mentioned the flanged tee earlier. Id saddle it. Do it all the time with approved fitting. To each there own. my company would tell me the spec'd material. It should be spec'd what they want, what is quoted. Be quick with a saddle though. But I got the drill that clamps to a pipe and a hot tap tool if required.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

red_devil said:


> Just about to say 20 ft up is against code. And I mentioned the flanged tee earlier. Id saddle it. Do it all the time with approved fitting. To each there own. my company would tell me the spec'd material. It should be spec'd what they want, what is quoted. Be quick with a saddle though. But I got the drill that clamps to a pipe and a hot tap tool if required.


There is one option that nobody has mentioned and with good reason. You could cut the hole thing off get a geared threader head put some new threads on the pipe and build what ever you want.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

justme said:


> I'm glad I don't have to test that because it would cost them $1000 dollars by the time I had a lift delivered , plus I would write it up every year on the test report as being installed against state code. I'm not putting down your work there's times I would love to install 1 like that. Where I'm at I couldn't get away with it here. TCEQ states it can be no higher than 5' or lower than 2'.


We are under TECQ here also. Il need to check in to that. Is ther a link for ther code ???


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> We are under TECQ here also. Il need to check in to that. Is ther a link for ther code ???


I think the IPC states 1 foot to 4 feet. It varies but that code is common in about every code book I have seen. Some local towns will have a clause in there about a reasonable access


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

IPC doesn't matter when it comes to backflows in TX , its TCEQ here.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

justme said:


> IPC doesn't matter when it comes to backflows in TX , its TCEQ here.


Do you have a link??


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

http://www.tceq.texas.gov/drinkingwater/trot/cc_control.html/#guidance


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Thanks. Thers so much info in ther. Do you know where it gives the support and install specs. I can't find it. Il look again. But throw me bone if you can


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Its in there somewhere lol , after taking the classes we have a book . The "Manual of Cross-Connection Control" 10th edition. The ipc gives guidance but all cities around here are installing per TCEQ your local water purveyor should have a backflow prevention program in place per TCEQ guidelines.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Yep, they fail them here for being elevated. Have moved quite a few of them down from elevation...


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

justme said:


> Its in there somewhere lol , after taking the classes we have a book . The "Manual of Cross-Connection Control" 10th edition. The ipc gives guidance but all cities around here are installing per TCEQ your local water purveyor should have a backflow prevention program in place per TCEQ guidelines.


I was reading my soft back manual of cross connection 10th add and it says you may place them on elevated platforms and areas that you may reach by ladder.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> I was reading my soft back manual of cross connection 10th add and it says you may place them on elevated platforms and areas that you may reach by ladder.


What that means is that you can place them on a platform that can be reached by using a ladder, not 20' feet in the air with no platform . For example you can put them on top of coolers and freezers here that have access. But cant just hang them in the middle of nowhere 20' off the ground when there is not a platform.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

justme said:


> What that means is that you can place them on a platform that can be reached by using a ladder, not 20' feet in the air with no platform . For example you can put them on top of coolers and freezers here that have access. But cant just hang them in the middle of nowhere 20' off the ground when there is not a platform.


What if you had a 20 foot lift?lol


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