# Dielectric nipples or not??



## robthaplumber

Dielectric fittings are the separation of two dissimilar metals, right? I see how dielectric unions separate the alloys with a plastic sleeve and rubber gasket. Could someone help me with how the "dielectric nipples" that come with water heaters work? They are a galv. Nipple with a plastic sleeve in the inner walls. How can it break the circuit if you screw a copper female adapt? On one end of the nipple and screw the other in the water htr.? All the metals are still contacting. 
How can they be called Dielectric nipples? 
Some help?:blink:


----------



## rocksteady

They can call them anything they want. :yes: It's debatable whether dielectric unions work so I'm sure the nipples don't. 






Paul


----------



## Plumbworker

they dont do diddly..unless there a bradford white heater yank em and put brass or stainless


----------



## AndersenPlumbing

I never use dielectric unions, they suck. I have yet to see one that isnt almost corroded or rusted shut after 5-10 years. 

I use 7/8" X 3/4" FIP brass compression adapters.


----------



## plumbrsteve

used to have to use dielct coups, not unions, to connect ridgid lp lines from house to tank preventing lightning strike on house making the propane tank explode. that's it! i'm calling the mythbusters


----------



## Protech

They are not Die-electric in any way. They just have a plastic liner which is supposed to hold the water way open. It does nothing by way of stopping galvanic corrosion.

They work ok if you use a brass female on the top and bottom it out so that the brass seals up against the plastic liner. While not truly die-electric, that method will at least hold the waterways open. The best method is to insert pex dip tubes inside the nipples and cut the one on the hot side so that it only protrudes about 1" into the tank. The flang at the top of the dip tube provides an even better seal against the brass female. When done this way there is zero flow loss from galvanic corrosion. It may also improve tank life but I have no evidence to support that yet. Only theory.


----------



## ChrisConnor

They do keep the waterway open. That's alone is worth something.

I've replaced water heaters that were under warranty that were installed with galvanized and only four years old that were less than 1/2 open due to rust buildup.


----------



## TheMaster

Those nipples to keep people from putting copper adapters directly into the heater making the heater fail at the inlets. The nipples keeps that copper to steel connection above the tank....so people wont call and say their water heater is leaking and get it covered under a warranty. Copper to steel eats steel, more so in some water. i guess you also have the option of installing dielectric unions but I dont do either and I take the steel mipples out all together and and other crap i can find in there but the diptube.


----------



## SlickRick

Somebody explain the difference in these dielectric waterways and the nipples in the w/h's. We used ones similar to these when running Vict. galv. mains and transitioning to copper in commercial projects.

http://www.victaulic.com/Docs/lit/09.07.pdf


----------



## RealLivePlumber

Would it be better to have a 2" brass nipple in the steel tank, then a c x f adaptor, to copper tube?

Why wouldn't the manufactures just put brass nipples in, instead of steel?


----------



## Protech

The essential design is the same but the Victaulic ones shown in the link are of exceptional quality. Polypropylene instead of polyethylene and It looks like the polypropylene protrudes out the end of the nipple and has a few threads on it. It's more of a polypropylene/steel composite than a steel nipple with a liner. Looks like really good stuff.



slickrick said:


> Somebody explain the difference in these dielectric waterways and the nipples in the w/h's. We used ones similar to these when running Vict. galv. mains and transitioning to copper in commercial projects.
> 
> http://www.victaulic.com/Docs/lit/09.07.pdf


----------



## Protech

No, that would be worse.



RealLivePlumber said:


> Would it be better to have a 2" brass nipple in the steel tank, then a c x f adaptor, to copper tube?
> 
> Why wouldn't the manufactures just put brass nipples in, instead of steel?


----------



## SlickRick

W/h didn't used to come with any nipples. If they are not affording protection, why are they including them?


----------



## Miguel

slickrick said:


> W/h didn't used to come with any nipples. If they are not affording protection, why are they including them?


Dunno. Marketing ploy? They're better than nothing and way better than using dielectric unions. For residential installs they seem to be fine.

When I used to do a lot of commercial work I found that simply installing 6" brass nipples and 2" CxFIP's instead of a C x MIP and *NO GALV. PLUGS, CAPS OR ANYTHING* would increase the life expectancy 5X!

They went from installing 120 gal glass-lined steel tanks every two yrs to once every ten years.

Miggy was a superhero at that hotel let me tell ya! I used to stand on the roof, hands on my hips and my cape blowing in the wind. :jester::laughing:

But seriously... the brass betwixt the steel and the copper made a huge (remarkable) difference.
I still have a few 1-1/4 to 2" dielectrics if anybody wants them. Come and get 'em! I'll never use them.


----------



## SlickRick

At first, no nipples. Then they were taped to the side, or in the box. Then they were installed. I know they don't want the heaters to last more than 1 day past warranty. Do we? I am so confused.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

*Recent job we just took pictures of*

Fresh, I mean really fresh like 4 hours old fresh.


I'm a battering ram to those who don't do their job right and this one is going to be a tell tale decision on behalf of our new customer that I'm working with to get her water heater issue resolved at no cost to her for the money she spent back in may of 2008. 

Does that seem too long? I don't. I put in connections that last for years and don't leak. If I end up fixing that problem between those two issues, Start at $300 and think upwards danielson.


----------



## Protech

Copper FIPs on galvo is against code here in Florida for that reason. Gotta use brass FIPs.



DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Fresh, I mean really fresh like 4 hours old fresh.
> 
> 
> I'm a battering ram to those who don't do their job right and this one is going to be a tell tale decision on behalf of our new customer that I'm working with to get her water heater issue resolved at no cost to her for the money she spent back in may of 2008.
> 
> Does that seem too long? I don't. I put in connections that last for years and don't leak. If I end up fixing that problem between those two issues, Start at $300 and think upwards danielson.
> 
> YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Protech said:


> Copper FIPs on galvo is against code here in Florida for that reason. Gotta use brass FIPs.


 

I had this discussion even with the director of the division of plumbing in my state. I strongly believe this is a incorrect connection of two materials that should never be joined in this fashion, ever.

That first row of threads, that copper and water start that equation of breakdown, instantly.


I've removed water heaters where that connection instantly breaks apart like an unstable connection would.


----------



## 422 plumber

I have said it before, but in our area of Illinois, the best thing to use is stainless steel nipples between the tank and the copper pipe. Brass is 2nd best.


----------



## TheMaster

I say the water has somthing to do with it.......I connect copper directly to the water heater and have no problems. I can snap pics of a 10 yr old heater and 17 yr old heater and a few more off the top of my head that has copper mip's directly to the tank. Looks as good as the day it was installed......I installed it too!


----------



## Protech

Pics or it didn't happen.



TheMaster said:


> I say the water has somthing to do with it.......I connect copper directly to the water heater and have no problems. I can snap pics of a 10 yr old heater and 17 yr old heater and a few more off the top of my head that has copper mip's directly to the tank. Looks as good as the day it was installed......I installed it too!


----------



## TheMaster

Protech said:


> Pics or it didn't happen.


I'll take pics of the 10 yr od one today....its at my home.....the others will wait until i go back to my folk's house. I'll post it up in a few minutes.
Here is the 10 year old one...(dont get picky about me saying 10 years I know the date codes shows 11 of 2000)


----------



## TheMaster

The above also has a copper diptube that I built up and installed.:thumbsup::laughing:
The romex has been touching that cpvc relief line since day one also.....still seems fine to me.


----------



## Protech

Lets see inside those ports


----------



## GREENPLUM

10 years sure can fly by......


----------



## TheMaster

Protech said:


> Lets see inside those ports


 Why? I'm getting plenty of flow....plus the next one I'ma post is 17 yrs old and its getting plenty of flow....How long do I hafta wait until it causes a problem? Its easy to do a flow test without cutting your plumbing apart.


----------



## dankman

TheMaster said:


> I'll take pics of the 10 yr od one today....its at my home.....the others will wait until i go back to my folk's house. I'll post it up in a few minutes.
> Here is the 10 year old one...(dont get picky about me saying 10 years I know the date codes shows 11 of 2000)


That tank would have failed inspection horribly in Ohio.


I agree with using brass nipples except on Bradford White tanks, then again unless the customer is supplying the tank I only install Bradford White.


----------



## TheMaster

dankman said:


> That tank would have failed inspection horribly in Ohio.
> 
> 
> I agree with using brass nipples except on Bradford White tanks, then again unless the customer is supplying the tank I only install Bradford White.


It passed here and you see why....its fine.:laughing:


----------



## retired rooter

I once replaced a PRV in a water meter box outside a house on a slab, it had no unions, so I had to cut the old 3/4 galv water line.The galv line was completely lined with the white plastic in the die-elect .That, at the time was a first for me. The entire water service was just like new on the inside,I joined it with a short piece of 3/4 L copper. Me and the old folks living there will be gone before it has to be changed again, I hope


----------



## Master Mark

*its all gotto do with grounding in the home*



TheMaster said:


> Why? I'm getting plenty of flow....plus the next one I'ma post is 17 yrs old and its getting plenty of flow....How long do I hafta wait until it causes a problem? Its easy to do a flow test without cutting your plumbing apart.


Dialectric unions suck...always have always will

attaching the copper directly to the heater works fine in about 80% of the applications...

every home is different and I have come to the conclusioin that it has a lot to do more with all
the electrical grounds that have been attached to the copper plumbing system..:thumbsup:.

it all depends on how well the home is grounded 
by the electrician,,,, 
and if the ground is non-existent, then the heater and those fittings on it seem to corroed and get eaten alive.. 

and the heaters that have lasted the shortest amount of time in our area always have a water softener in the home....???? 
I think that has got to do with the salination of the water in the tank and the small amount of current running through the plumbing system ..... 
it makes the heater into some sort of electrical conductor ..

This all sounds like a bunch of hooey, 
but I run into this all the time...

I prefer to hook up all my heaters with the
 flexible connectors from brass craft.....


----------



## Protech

Some field testing....


----------



## Protech

more


----------



## Protech

So, anyone wanna see what it looks like inside?


----------



## Protech

mmmmmmm, corn flakes


----------



## Protech

After scooping out the cornflakes and hosing out the goo stuck to the walls.


----------



## TheMaster

Here get your books out and explain this:whistling2:


----------



## TheMaster

Now do you think your water quality in FL sucks or not?
Thats 16 years almost to the day and it wasn't leaking. Just changed it for because it was due.


----------



## ChrisConnor

Protech said:


> mmmmmmm, corn flakes


Thanks, now how are you gonna put it back together?:jester:


----------



## TheMaster

Copper directly to the tank isn't always a bad thing as the pics prove.


----------



## futz

TheMaster said:


> I say the water has something to do with it.......I connect copper directly to the water heater and have no problems.


Totally agree. I've seen a bazillion done with direct copper connections and they mostly seem to hold up just fine. Your mileage (like your water) may vary.

I use the dreaded dielectric unions 


Because they look good and impress the hell out of the inspectors.
Because we have really nice water here and I don't have the massive corrosion problems in them that I read about here.
I like them :laughing:


----------



## Bonafide

Use teflon and pipe dope, now theres no metal to metal


----------



## Neplumber

I only started using dielectric unions a few years ago, in my area, a union of some sort at the nipples of a w/h is code. I have come to prefer the dielectric unions to several other options. In some farming areas, where they are on well water, seem to have problems no matter what is used. In town though, I have had great luck with the dielectric unions.


----------



## Protech

That looks pretty closed up to me. Or is that just pipe dope around the dip tube. I can't tell.


----------



## Protech

Wut about the t/p port TM?


----------



## TheMaster

27 year old heater and As i called it...copper directly to the tank. They looked better than i thought they would after 27 years.
















DO YOU REALLY THINK I TOUCHED THIS OLD DRAIN:laughing: NO WAY








PUMPED IT OUT IN 6 MINUTES


----------



## TheMaster

OK NOW FOR THE GOOD STUFF.


----------



## Protech

I'm doing one tomorrow. I'll post mine as well.


----------



## Master Mark

*too much time on your hands*

you guys got waaayyyy too much time on your hands...

cutting up water heaters , ect....

what do you think that they are gonna look like if 
they were installed back in 1983?? :laughing::laughing:


I am more interested in looking at the ones 
that only last a year or two... and what causes them to 
fail so quickly

if I run into one that has been installed with
*flexible connectors*, it might be interesting to see
how well it did compared to others...

I cut his one open a while back:laughing:
no actually that is how I found it....


----------



## robthaplumber

Master Mark said:


> you guys got waaayyyy too much time on your hands...
> 
> cutting up water heaters , ect....
> 
> what do you think that they are gonna look like if
> they were installed back in 1983?? :laughing::laughing:
> 
> 
> I am more interested in looking at the ones
> that only last a year or two... and what causes them to
> fail so quickly
> 
> if I run into one that has been installed with
> *flexible connectors*, it might be interesting to see
> how well it did compared to others...
> 
> I cut his one open a while back:laughing:
> no actually that is how I found it....


 Holy #^$*!!!! Imagine being on the crapper when that thing went off. Wow.


----------



## plumbrob

Master Mark said:


> Dialectric unions suck...always have always will
> 
> attaching the copper directly to the heater works fine in about 80% of the applications...
> 
> every home is different and I have come to the conclusioin that it has a lot to do more with all
> the electrical grounds that have been attached to the copper plumbing system..:thumbsup:.
> 
> it all depends on how well the home is grounded
> by the electrician,,,,
> and if the ground is non-existent, then the heater and those fittings on it seem to corroed and get eaten alive..
> 
> and the heaters that have lasted the shortest amount of time in our area always have a water softener in the home....????
> I think that has got to do with the salination of the water in the tank and the small amount of current running through the plumbing system .....
> it makes the heater into some sort of electrical conductor ..
> 
> This all sounds like a bunch of hooey,
> but I run into this all the time...
> 
> I prefer to hook up all my heaters with the
> flexible connectors from brass craft.....


 The oldest heaters in my area are the ones WITH a softener. Matter of fact was doing a gas line for a dryer last week the water heater was an 82 gallon electric Lochinvar Cheif HO said it was there when she moved in back in 1967  home also had a softener :thumbsup:


----------



## Protech

Well, I cut open another leaker this evening and it turns out that it leaked at the welds. It seems that the welds are always the areas that corrode. This last one looked like the glass lining was applied BEFORE welding. All of the welds have flaked the glass lining off where ever the weld penetrated all the way thru to the inside of the tank wall. This seems really stupid to me. They should be applying the lining after all welding is done. That way the welds will not corrode thru. 

This was a bradford white if I'm not mistaken. I left the camera at the shop/ I'll have the pictures for ya in the morning.


----------



## Turd Herder

RealLivePlumber said:


> Would it be better to have a 2" brass nipple in the steel tank, then a c x f adaptor, to copper tube?
> 
> Why wouldn't the manufactures just put brass nipples in, instead of steel?


they are more expensive.


----------



## Redwood

Protech said:


> Well, I cut open another leaker this evening and it turns out that it leaked at the welds. It seems that the welds are always the areas that corrode. This last one looked like the glass lining was applied BEFORE welding. All of the welds have flaked the glass lining off where ever the weld penetrated all the way thru to the inside of the tank wall. This seems really stupid to me. They should be applying the lining after all welding is done. That way the welds will not corrode thru.
> 
> This was a bradford white if I'm not mistaken. I left the camera at the shop/ I'll have the pictures for ya in the morning.


I believe you will find that the tank is glass coated after welding...

However a pressure vessel does experience flexing at week spots when pressure cycled.

This is probably why the glass has chipped away from joints, most of the joints would be in areas susceptible to flexing...

This is a reason to keep the pressure and thermal expansion in check for longer service life of the water heater.


----------



## Protech

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree, red. 



Redwood said:


> I believe you will find that the tank is glass coated after welding...
> 
> However a pressure vessel does experience flexing at week spots when pressure cycled.
> 
> This is probably why the glass has chipped away from joints, most of the joints would be in areas susceptible to flexing...
> 
> This is a reason to keep the pressure and thermal expansion in check for longer service life of the water heater.


----------



## Protech

Picture time :clap:


----------



## Protech

mo pics


----------



## Protech

last set


----------



## Redwood

I'd say to offer conclusive proof you're going to have to cut up a new one to show the missing coating at the welds...:laughing:

Or perhaps invest in a micro see snake if you want to use a non destructive method to attempt to prove your point...

Pulling out picture proof of an old leaker with damaged glass coating at the welds does more to prove my point that the pressure cycling caused damage to the glass lining...:whistling2:

In order for you to prove your point you must show the coating missing on a new water heater...:yes:

You may have a valid claim that burn through and a lack of descaling on the burn through caused poor adhesion of the glass coating...


----------



## Protech

It just so happens that I DO have a new-ish heater to cut open.

In the meantime, watch this:





 


Redwood said:


> I'd say to offer conclusive proof you're going to have to cut up a new one to show the missing coating at the welds...:laughing:
> 
> Or perhaps invest in a micro see snake if you want to use a non destructive method to attempt to prove your point...
> 
> Pulling out picture proof of an old leaker with damaged glass coating at the welds does more to prove my point that the pressure cycling caused damage to the glass lining...:whistling2:
> 
> In order for you to prove your point you must show the coating missing on a new water heater...:yes:
> 
> You may have a valid claim that burn through and a lack of descaling on the burn through caused poor adhesion of the glass coating...


----------



## gear junkie

WTF!!! They check for gas leaks with a torch!!!


----------



## king john

What do you think would be the best kind of nipples? I've come up with flaming nipples, nipples with wheels and toothpaste dispensing nipples.


----------



## Protech

Wut?



king john said:


> What do you think would be the best kind of nipples? I've come up with flaming nipples, nipples with wheels and toothpaste dispensing nipples.


----------



## SlickRick

Redwood said:


> I'd say to offer conclusive proof you're going to have to cut up a new one to show the missing coating at the welds...:laughing:
> 
> Or perhaps invest in a micro see snake if you want to use a non destructive method to attempt to prove your point...
> 
> Pulling out picture proof of an old leaker with damaged glass coating at the welds does more to prove my point that the pressure cycling caused damage to the glass lining...:whistling2:
> 
> In order for you to prove your point you must show the coating missing on a new water heater...:yes:
> 
> You may have a valid claim that burn through and a lack of descaling on the burn through caused poor adhesion of the glass coating...


I have a coupon on my desk that I cut out of a 2 mo. old leaker around the bottom element. The liner was IMO effected during the welding process. Looks like the robot had a brain fart. The leak was actually the weld. The liner was damaged in the weld pattern.


----------



## Protech

Watch the video from 1:41 to 2:28. They clearly show the enamel going on before welding.


----------



## Titan Plumbing

I know this may be met with some opposition, however this is the best solution in my opinion to the problem. I can't remember how many we have installed over the years without issues.


----------



## Protech

What kind of nipple would you thread into the tank with that coupling? 



Choctaw said:


> I know this may be met with some opposition, however this is the best solution in my opinion to the problem. I can't remember how many we have installed over the years without issues.


----------



## Associated Plum

Protech said:


> No, that would be worse.


And why would that be worse?

The water heater manufacturer I talked to recommended brass nipples at the heater


----------



## Titan Plumbing

Protech said:


> What kind of nipple would you thread into the tank with that coupling?


The nipples that are supplied by the W/H manufacturer. Our heaters come with the nipples pre-installed.


----------



## Protech

Brass is higher on the galvanic scale than steel. Since you have exposed steel threads on the inside of the water heater bung, and you have a brass male thread touching the steal tank with a short distance between the brass and the steel, you have just created a galvanic cell. With a dielectric nipple, you are still going to have a brass FIP adapter touching the steel tank, but the plastic liner is spreading the brass and steel surfaces that are touching the water (electrolyte) away from each other and distributing the corrosion over and wider area. That corrosion area is also not in the flow path.

If anyone doesn’t understand this I can draw a picture later on when I’m not working.

Now just to be clear, I'm not saying that a brass nipple is worse than a copper MIP. If I have to choose between copper or brass threads touching bare steel threads, I'll pick brass every time. Luckily, we have dielectric nipples, so I don’t usually have to make that choice.



Associated Plum said:


> And why would that be worse?
> 
> The water heater manufacturer I talked to recommended brass nipples at the heater


----------



## Protech

That sounds like a good idea. That would be a truly dielectric connection then.

Where do you get those couplings? I think I would prefer glass impregnated polysulphone but I don't know if anyone makes such a thing.



Choctaw said:


> The nipples that are supplied by the W/H manufacturer. Our heaters come with the nipples pre-installed.


----------



## TheMaster

I use titanium nipples lined with gold and platnium. I only use the best of the best.


----------



## Titan Plumbing

Protech said:


> That sounds like a good idea. That would be a truly dielectric connection then.
> 
> Where do you get those couplings? I think I would prefer glass impregnated polysulphone but I don't know if anyone makes such a thing.


http://www.legendvalve.com/products/Comm-Indst_Catalog_LT-CIC1008.pdf

I had to find a supply house that was willing to order these, not all the houses around here sell Legend.


----------



## Redwood

Protech said:


> It just so happens that I DO have a new-ish heater to cut open.
> 
> In the meantime, watch this:
> 
> YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.


I guess I'll have to concede That your video of a GSW water heater proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Bradford White water heaters are constructed the same way... :whistling2::laughing:

But you are probably right...

Thanks for the video Protech! :thumbup:


----------



## TheMaster

Choctaw said:


> http://www.legendvalve.com/products/Comm-Indst_Catalog_LT-CIC1008.pdf
> 
> I had to find a supply house that was willing to order these, not all the houses around here sells Legend.


They have a repair kit for their version of a sharkbite.:laughing:.


----------



## Protech

C'mon man, you're grasping at straws. I get to win once in a while too ya know. 



Redwood said:


> I guess I'll have to concede That your video of a GSW water heater proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Bradford White water heaters are constructed the same way... :whistling2::laughing:
> 
> But you are probably right...
> 
> Thanks for the video Protech! :thumbup:


----------



## Redwood

Protech said:


> C'mon man, you're grasping at straws. I get to win once in a while too ya know.


Didn't I say I'd let you have it...
Still the proof was cheezy:whistling2:


----------



## Turd Herder

RealLivePlumber said:


> Would it be better to have a 2" brass nipple in the steel tank, then a c x f adaptor, to copper tube?
> 
> Why wouldn't the manufactures just put brass nipples in, instead of steel?


I would be better to use 6" brass nipples with an all brass di-electric FIPx CC
union to make that connection


----------



## callmemaster

*not true*



Plumbworker said:


> they dont do diddly..unless there a bradford white heater yank em and put brass or stainless


 Bradford White water heater nipples do nothing more than any other "good for nothing" dielectric nipple. Theres no separation whatsoever in any nipple.


----------



## callmemaster

*silly is what silly says*



rocksteady said:


> They can call them anything they want. :yes: It's debatable whether dielectric unions work so I'm sure the nipples don't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paul


of course dielectric unions work. of course dielectric nipples dont. now bow before me swine


----------



## Tango

callmemaster said:


> of course dielectric unions work. of course dielectric nipples dont. now bow before me swine


And who are you?


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill

hes call me masterbator....


----------



## Master Mark

its always good to see a thread come alive after 8 years being dormant .....:vs_laugh::laugh:


----------



## callmemaster

*master is my name*



Tango said:


> And who are you?


 i`m someone who knows a whole lot more than ur average bear. i`m the great OZ


----------



## callmemaster

TheMaster said:


> I use titanium nipples lined with gold and platnium. I only use the best of the best.


hahahahahahahahahahahah i simple red brass nipple would do just fine


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill

I like pencil size nipples you can suck on....


----------

