# IPC vs IRC code question



## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Ok, In the 2006 IPC they say you can use a 4x3 closet bend and not considered a reduction in size. now I see in 2006 IRC :

​*P3003.19 Joints between drainage piping and water closets.​*​Joints between drainage piping and water closets or similar fixtures shall be made by means of a closet flange compatible with the drainage system material, securely fastened to a structurally firm base. The inside diameter of the drainage pipe shall not be used as a socket fitting for a four by three closet flange. The joint shall be bolted, with an approved gasket, flange to fixture connection complying with ASME A112.4.3 or setting compound between the fixture and the closet flange ​

Does that mean if you use a 4x3 abs closet bend the kind with 4" spigot x 3" hub you can't use a flange designed to go into 4"? I have never been called on this from an inspector but reading it makes me wonder what you guys all think.


----------



## Christina (Jul 14, 2009)

Plumber Jim said:


> *2006 IRC :*
> *P3003.19 Joints between drainage piping and water closets. *
> Joints between drainage piping and water closets or similar fixtures shall be made by means of a closet flange compatible with the drainage system material, securely fastened to a structurally firm base. _The inside diameter of the drainage pipe shall not be used as a socket fitting for a four by three closet flange._ The joint shall be bolted, with an approved gasket, flange to fixture connection complying with ASME A112.4.3 or setting compound between the fixture and the closet flange.


*2009 IPC:*​ 
*420.4 Water Closet Connections.* A 4-inch by 3-inch closet bend shall be acceptable. _Where a 3-inch bend is utilized on a water closets, a 4-inch by 3-inch flange shall be intalled to receive the fixture horn_.​ 
*405.4 Floor and Wall Drainage Connections.* Connections between the drain and floor outlet plumbing fixtures shall be made with a floor flange. The flange shall be attached to the drain and anchored to the structure... ...Joints shall be sealed with an _approved_ elastometric gasket, flange-to-fixture connection complying with ASME A112.4.3 or an _approved_ setting compound.​ 
*704.2 Change in size.* The size of the drainage piping shall not be reduced in sized in the direction of flow. A 4-inch by 3-inch water closet connection shall not be considered as a reduction in size.​ 
_Jim, I still read that IRC is saying that you cannot use the pipe as your socket (which would indicate a 3" or 4"), meaning not to glue the fitting inside of either size, the fitting must go on the outside of the pipe according to their wording IMO. But when I look at IPC it says..._ 
_Where a 3-inch bend is utilized on a water closets, a 4-inch by 3-inch flange shall be intalled to receive the fixture horn_. ​_Which indicates that it is ok for you can use the 4" x 3" closet flange on the inside of 4" but when 3" is ran to the floor they do not want you to use a flange that glues to the inside of 3"- but insist you use the 4" x 3" that goes on the outside of the 3"...._ 
_Our wholesaler distributes... _ 
_American Brass & Aluminum Foundries Part #9601 & #9604 (with knockout)_ 
http://www.abainc.net/PDFFiles/NewProductsAugust08.pdf 
_And I am very curious to find out if it meets ASME A112.4.3 being that they plainly advertise... _ 
Flush Fit Closet Flange with Adjustable Stainless Steel Ring​Fits Over 3" Schedule 40 DWV Pipe or Inside 4" Schedule 40 DWV Pipe

_...it is excepted by IPC but not by IRC... I personally think this is an error on IRC's part but I could be wrong or could be completely misunderstanding how it reads. I will have to call and inquire... will let you know what the specs and inspecs (inspectors) say. :blink:_​


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I've been known to install a flange inside of a 3" pipe. I've never had a problem but you MUST get the wc lined up perfect.
And of course you can't use those wax rings with the plastic horn extension. That's fine by me because I hate those things. Anyone ever knock one loose with a closet auger? It really ruins your day.


----------



## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech said:


> I've been known to install a flange inside of a 3' pipe.


That would be a code violation here.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

As would 90% of the things that the rest of the plumbing community does every day for the past 15-20 years. :whistling2:


----------



## Christina (Jul 14, 2009)

Protech said:


> I've been known to install a flange inside of a 3' pipe.


Yes, Pro, there are a few times that this application is necessary. For instance when a ring under a commode rusts out (metal) or breaks off (PVC). There are certain instances that force us to do things to 'repair' work that falls under 102.4- even if it is not our 'regular' practice.


----------



## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

I found this from a Dallas site:


​*Question:​*​Can the drainage pipe be used as a socket fitting for a 4X3 closet flange? ​
*Section 3003.4.5 *States the following: 
*P3003.4.5​*​Joints between drainage piping and water closets. Joints 
between drainage piping and water closets or similar fixtures shall be 
made by means of a closet flange compatible with the drainage system 
material, securely fastened to a structurally firm base. The inside 
diameter of the drainage pipe shall not be used as a socket fitting for 
a four by three closet flange. The joint shall be bolted, with an 
approved gasket or setting compound between the fixture and the closet 
flange. ​
*RP3005.1.4​*​Water closet connection between flange and pipe. One- 
quarter bends 3 inches (76 mm) in diameter shall be acceptable for 
water closet or similar connections, provided a 4-inch-by-3-inch (102 
mm by 76 mm) flange is installed to receive the closet fixture horn. 
Alternately, a 4-inch-by-3-inch (102 mm by 76 mm) elbow shall be 
acceptable with a 4-inch (102 mm) flange. ​
*Answer:​*​The inside diameter of the drainage pipe may not be reduced to less than 3 in. thus; the vertical portion of a closet stub which is 3 in. may not be used as a socket to solvent weld a closet flange. 
Additionally, if we consult table P3005.4.1 when the 3 in. drain pipe is used for a socket for the flange it reduces the interior dimension of the pipe to 2-½ in. and according to this table 2-½ in. pipe and footnote b, prohibits the use of a water closet. ​

However, if the vertical portion if the closet stub is 4 in. then the drainage pipes may be used as a socket for a closet flange that is design to solvent weld inside the 4 in. drainage pipe. http://www.dallascityhall.com/pdf/Building/ClosetFlange.pdf​​​


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

is there anything about a horned wax ring in the code book?


----------



## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

GREENPLUM said:


> is there anything about a horned wax ring in the code book?


Chicago's code forbids them, as the code clearly states that you cannot install a restriction on a waste opening.


----------



## Christina (Jul 14, 2009)

:thumbup: *YEAH!!*​ 
Jim found the answer to his question!! The IRC Code wording is intended for 3" not for 4"!! Only to make it a point that flanges are not glued on the inside of 3" pipe! Good Job Jim!! I know there are a few more IRC/IPC differences that I came across but I can't remember them... I will have to get the IRC book from the office!!

 *GOOD JOB JIM!*​


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Not to defend them (I hate wax rings with horns), but how does the horn restrict the wax as it's larger than the toilet outlet? I guess you can argue that the horn could shift during wax ring compression and cover the outlet of the toilet. On second thought, GO CHICAGO CODE!



Killertoiletspider said:


> Chicago's code forbids them, as the code clearly states that you cannot install a restriction on a waste opening.


----------



## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech said:


> Not to defend them (I hate wax rings with horns), but how does the horn restrict the wax as it's larger than the toilet outlet? I guess you can argue that the horn could shift during wax ring compression and cover the outlet of the toilet. On second thought, GO CHICAGO CODE!


Chicago code minimum waste opening for a water closet is three inch, who makes a wax ring with a horn outlet that meets that?


----------



## A Good Plumber (Jun 18, 2008)

Plumber Jim said:


> Ok, In the 2006 IPC they say you can use a 4x3 closet bend and not considered a reduction in size. now I see in 2006 IRC :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## dave3603 (Sep 9, 2009)

i am not sure,but i would think you could bolt the flange to the floor and it would be approved. i would consult your building plumbing offical for clarifaction.


----------

