# Anyone install CPVC?



## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Been awhile since I posted much. COVID stuff has got me not working as much. Anyway I'm getting into more New Construction. Uponor is king in my area(NE Oklahoma) but I'm not a fan. It leaks a lot on recirc lines, chlorine eats it up, plus I just don't like the stuff. I usually install Sioux Chief PEX pipe, fittings and rings. Anyway, any plumbers out there installing CPVC? Not common here, and I'd like some real world feed back from other plumbers that do install it or work in areas where it is more common. Anyone have installs lasting 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 years etc?


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Will said:


> Been awhile since I posted much. COVID stuff has got me not working as much. Anyway I'm getting into more New Construction. Uponor is king in my area(NE Oklahoma) but I'm not a fan. It leaks a lot on recirc lines, chlorine eats it up, plus I just don't like the stuff. I usually install Sioux Chief PEX pipe, fittings and rings. Anyway, any plumbers out there installing CPVC? Not common here, and I'd like some real world feed back from other plumbers that do install it or work in areas where it is more common. Anyone have installs lasting 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 years etc?





How is the uponor failing on the recirc lines? Is it the fittings? Upsizing will help with erosion issues. We have been using viega fostapex with bronze fittings for about 10+ years, very good performance. My only gripe is antifreeze will have issues at the joints but it's the same with propress or any other system other than sweat copper if it goes sour.





If you're talking about white, copper tube size, 1/2" or 3/4" cpvc then yeah, just a couple fittings to adapt to some stuff years ago. Whenever we run into it now we just replace it all, we refuse to connect to it as it gets brittle. There was a plumber that moved here from florida like 20 years ago and he spent a couple years installing some of it as he was used to using it. Needless to say it got brittle. Town or well water, softened or not, doesn't matter, it's garbage.




Also, some of the cheap city slicker "well specialists" use sch.40 for going from the black poly at the wall to the tank tee. Only 10' max usually. The inspectors put the screws to outsiders and since black poly is only legal to stub in they choose to use pvc since they can't solder and don't have expensive crimp tools. We have had tons of issues with that too, although 99% of those have been people dropping things or stepping on it. Again, we won;t attach to it, only replace.




All of that said we have had no issues with sch.80 grey cpvc and frequently use it on chiller piping or chlorine/chemical injection stuff. We do not use female threaded fittings as they crack open.








.


----------



## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

CPVC in my area is considered hack material mostly because of the cold winters. 

I’ve worked with it before too many times! It’s the one material I will permanently use a sharkbite on. I prefer to rip it all out and run pex, but limited to my customers pockets. Really old CPVC can be brittle and requires cutting it with a hand saw.


----------



## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

Back in the early 2000's I was installing it in the northwest,
me and my brother had to do some mobile home repipes
from the heat being left off and the pipe freezing,

That being said I live in a appox 12 year old Senior Apt Complex,
that is all CPVC, we have PVC water mains outside but everything
inside is CPVC, they stubbed out in the outside storage closet with a
shut off valve then tees off the feed the water heater with shutoff
valve, then feeds the Apt, :biggrin:


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

never touched the stuff, not legal in my area..


----------



## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> never touched the stuff, not legal in my area..


Doesn’t mean you haven’t seen it or ripped it out......


----------



## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

I've installed miles of it. It's all we used when I did new home construction. Except for the main water service which was black poly. That's another material I'd never use in my house.

I would never use cpvc in my house. I've done many repairs and have seen how brittle it gets after a few years. Like others have said, sometimes you need to cut it with a saw so it doesn't crack. 

If you're not worried about longevity and want to save money over copper then have at it. I'd prefer pex over cpvc. But in my houses I only use copper.


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

OpenSights said:


> Doesn’t mean you haven’t seen it or ripped it out......


it was never legal in my area, not sold any place, so to install it you cant even find it to buy...plenty of old galvanized, brass, copper and pex..


----------



## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

we did a lot of jobs with it, res and commercial. old boss. flo guard gold.. they have a good warranty from what i remember. the advantage is with larger pipes like 1 inch and over . its probably the cheapest option. i think its called corzan. dont quote me on that. we could go 2 and 3 inch water pipes and just glue it together. anyone cold do it. i wouldnt put it in my house.


----------



## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Keep the feedback coming.

I know CPVC had a "bad rep" but a lot of the issues probably are from unlicensed installers. Or bad practice.

I have not messed with it in 10-15 years, but have installed a lot of it in apartments. The company I worked for had been installing it since the 1980s with great success.

I've seen CPVC fail from freezing and I've seen it get brittle, but not seen just plan failure of pipe. That being said, it is not common at all in my area now.


----------



## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Some 30 years ago I installed it via a developers wish to keep costs down. More than a dozen 4 family units & other locations for his projects.

It is an approved material in Illinois and still is. 

It is harder to get to look good and support. Especially if your using purple primer. you have to use the approved glue. We would install and in a few hours with moderate pressure could energize the lines. Never took the 24 hour cure time as suggested for us to use.

You have to leave room for expansion as it's rate of expansion is greater than copper.

It is quieter and seems to holds heat better than copper.

NEVER use a CPVC female and copper male. Learned that the hard way when converting for frost proof sillcocks. It would hold then days later split the female. Always use CPVC males. Since that tiem they have developed copper studs with built-in CPVC females to allow for direct conversion. Never had those when I was installing it.

I have seem a lot of them in field over the past several years. Still see more PEX overall know. Not a big fan of PEX. Seems to me it can pose a greater risk of failure at the fittings than a solvent weld joint.

I haven't dealt with costs in years so can't really comment on that point. (Seems PEX fittings may be higher) No special tools to install and just as easy I would think.


----------



## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

I used flowguard gold in So Ca back in the 90s south Orange County a few hundred homes I was tract home plumbing in those days never looked back it went in ok and failures early werent a real problem . But I always thought the stuff was iffy at best. 
Never been a fan of the stuff but nearly all of our new homes use the orang cpvc on fire sprinklers for last 30 years of corce its sch40 and water just sits stationary. Also I know of several hotels including a Disney in Anahiem that used Sch 80 cpvc . I had a 1974 travel trailer was amazed it had cpvc in those days worked fine till I burst them in freezing Elko NV winter. cpvc sold here I guess all over I know lowes has it Im suprised because I dont know anyone that uses it . If I was considering cpvc Id look hard at going with a heavier sch of pipe I think you can run like 2 inch mains and then go to pex for the smaller stuff like a hotel or apt building but I wouldnt want to have a bunch of copper tube sized glue joints buried in walls.


----------



## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

I’ve never bought cpvc fittings, but I assume they are cheaper than even plastic pex fittings and rings. However less fittings are needed for running pex. 

We use to use Everloc from Rehau when they were brass fittings and sleeves. That is my favorite pex system! I’d even say it’s bulletproof! But a 3/4 tee and three sleeves, our cost was about $12.50... we couldn’t complete so we switched to the crap fittings.


----------



## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

On most my remodels the last year I have gone to copper. When I really sat down and looked at the cost of PEX pipe like say Uponor/Wirsbo and the cost of there males and female brass fittings, rings, tools, etc it really is not that much cheaper than copper. Look at the pricing of 3/4" and 1" Uponor brass fittings. And once you get above 1" in the 1.25"-3" range the prices are comical, copper is cheaper. Not to mention the insane cost of tools. 

I have not looked at prices of CPVC and I'm sure it is way lower than PEX. 10 years ago I loved PEX, now I have seen so many problems with it I'm not sold on it. Uponor fails more than any other brand except maybe DuraPEX. Plus the cost keeps going up and up that plumbers don't even realize now that copper is not much more expensive. 

Problem I have with CPVC in my area is that we have on grade concrete slab construction. Not a lot of crawlspaces or basements. Flowguard Gold does come in coils, but looping it under slab, I've never seen that. I repiped some of my houses in Texas when I lived there with CPVC and had no issues. I gained some respect for the product after we installed miles and miles of it in apartments with no problems. I also installed a ton of it in trailers that had the PB lawsuits. Worked well there too.


----------



## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

A couple apartment buildings up here in canada and one long term care home plumbed in in cpvc.. Ive been seeing failures of pex aswell uponor specifically.. usually on recircs like someone else mentioning.. 



I don't mind it failing if it is installed to manufactures specs and they are going to take the fall like the kitec then nt my concern..


dealing with cpvc in apartment buildings is scary though opps snap and then its a lawsuit


----------



## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Will said:


> On most my remodels the last year I have gone to copper. When I really sat down and looked at the cost of PEX pipe like say Uponor/Wirsbo and the cost of there males and female brass fittings, rings, tools, etc it really is not that much cheaper than copper. Look at the pricing of 3/4" and 1" Uponor brass fittings. And once you get above 1" in the 1.25"-3" range the prices are comical, copper is cheaper. Not to mention the insane cost of tools.
> 
> I have not looked at prices of CPVC and I'm sure it is way lower than PEX. 10 years ago I loved PEX, now I have seen so many problems with it I'm not sold on it. Uponor fails more than any other brand except maybe DuraPEX. Plus the cost keeps going up and up that plumbers don't even realize now that copper is not much more expensive.
> 
> Problem I have with CPVC in my area is that we have on grade concrete slab construction. Not a lot of crawlspaces or basements. Flowguard Gold does come in coils, but looping it under slab, I've never seen that. I repiped some of my houses in Texas when I lived there with CPVC and had no issues. I gained some respect for the product after we installed miles and miles of it in apartments with no problems. I also installed a ton of it in trailers that had the PB lawsuits. Worked well there too.


I’d like to know your supply house for copper! Pex is like 10X cheaper here, if not more!


----------



## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

I've been to a few houses where the homeowners snapped the cpvc while turning off and on an angle stop. Most of them were less than 15 years old. Some on wells and some on public water.
Another thing to consider is how it was stored. If it was in direct sunlight it will become brittle before even installing it. If you carry them on your roof make sure it's stored inside a pipe or other carrier.


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Will said:


> On most my remodels the last year I have gone to copper. When I really sat down and looked at the cost of PEX pipe like say Uponor/Wirsbo and the cost of there males and female brass fittings, rings, tools, etc it really is not that much cheaper than copper. Look at the pricing of 3/4" and 1" Uponor brass fittings. And once you get above 1" in the 1.25"-3" range the prices are comical, copper is cheaper. Not to mention the insane cost of tools.
> 
> I have not looked at prices of CPVC and I'm sure it is way lower than PEX. 10 years ago I loved PEX, now I have seen so many problems with it I'm not sold on it. Uponor fails more than any other brand except maybe DuraPEX. Plus the cost keeps going up and up that plumbers don't even realize now that copper is not much more expensive.
> 
> Problem I have with CPVC in my area is that we have on grade concrete slab construction. Not a lot of crawlspaces or basements. Flowguard Gold does come in coils, but looping it under slab, I've never seen that. I repiped some of my houses in Texas when I lived there with CPVC and had no issues. I gained some respect for the product after we installed miles and miles of it in apartments with no problems. I also installed a ton of it in trailers that had the PB lawsuits. Worked well there too.


pex here is cheaper than copper. Fitting are about the same. The saving are in labor. A guesstimate, probably save 16 hours per house so that's a saving of 2000$ each. A contractor that does 300 houses a year that's a whopping 600 000$, Boss can now buy a Lambo.

Cpvc only allowed on cold water here, only cottage hacks install that $hit.


----------



## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

i had a bad batch of 1 1/4 flowguard. fixed a leak 2 months ago. 2 houses had leaks in total. 1 within the first few months the other 10 years later. both installed new about the same time. it looked like a small drip inside the pipe which lead to a thin spot inside of the pipe when removed. of course flo guard never saw that before.


----------



## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

I'm owner and installer, so I can understand the labor savings on PEX over copper. I'll have to look back to see the price deferences but for me there not that different. Pipe is big difference, fittings are a wash if not cheaper for copper. I do a lot of remodels with high dollar bathrooms that need lots of odd ball fittings and copper works for me there, but again I'm the owner and installer. 1/2" L copper is around $1 per foot for me, 1/2" PEX depending on brand is 25-38 cents a ft, so big savings there, but the fittings are cheaper on copper especially the threaded fittings


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Will said:


> I'm owner and installer, so I can understand the labor savings on PEX over copper. I'll have to look back to see the price deferences but for me there not that different. Pipe is big difference, fittings are a wash if not cheaper for copper. I do a lot of remodels with high dollar bathrooms that need lots of odd ball fittings and copper works for me there, but again I'm the owner and installer. 1/2" L copper is around $1 per foot for me, 1/2" PEX depending on brand is 25-38 cents a ft, so big savings there, but the fittings are cheaper on copper especially the threaded fittings



I do a hybrid system, I will run pex to the bathroom and find if all the plumbing is on 1 wall copper is just easier to rough out and get my stub outs to stay straight and for installing speedy valves, if the fixtures are all over the place I will run pex and terminate in copper....example..if installing a rain shower head in the ceiling ill use pex to the drop ear 90 and secure the 90 to a 2 x 4...
any long run over 6ft its worth using pex, and the labor saved is enormous with pex...
also pex is much more forgiving from freezing and has less tendency to freeze as fast as copper..copper conducts cold as much as it does heat, pex seems to be an insulator..again it will freeze solid if there is no heat in the house..but in soffits for running baseboard I have found pex with insulation has less issues than copper with insulation..down side..I cant use my pipe defroster on pex you have to wait for warm weather or you have to start opening small holes in walls and hit it with a heat gun..


----------



## canuck92 (Apr 1, 2016)

Just cut a bunch out in a crawl space last week.
Boss told me to install wirsbo, not a fan of that stuff either. 
Iv come across pin holes an splits in it aswell.
Also the expander gets locked up in the ring if it gets any water in it...drives me nuts.
If i decide the material i just use pex or copper


----------



## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

I'm glad I'm not the only one to hate Uponor, that stuff has so many issues. Even so almost every home is plumbed in Uponor in Tulsa, good for repairs.......


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

We use viega fostapex and copper. On a new build we will generally do everything in fostapex except the stub outs, well tank, water heater(first couple feet), and one or two other things which we do in copper.



I can't imagine doing anything other than copper for the stubouts. We use sweat stops. Do any of you guys use compression stops? Around here they are considered hack items. They usually end up being a real pitd down the road. With sweat copper your stub out never gets shorter.



Some jobs we do all copper if the homeowner wants. We only use bronze fittings on the pex. Fosta pex has the added step of the outer skin needing to be stripped so that added labor and its added cost make it only slightly cheaper than running copper. The outer skin is needed as we have had a fair number of cases of rodents chewing through regular pex and even pvc. Ocasionally we will do regular red/blue pex but that is only on the really cheapo jobs like modular homes.






Do any of you guys do propress? Sometimes we will propress a whole house.




.


----------



## canuck92 (Apr 1, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> We use viega fostapex and copper. On a new build we will generally do everything in fostapex except the stub outs, well tank, water heater(first couple feet), and one or two other things which we do in copper.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I sweat as much as i can, iv used compression stops a handfull of times only when im in a pinch.
Only time i grab the press tool is when im changing 100g tanks and a valve wont hold. Then ill press it so i dont have to shut a building down.
I dont really like the look of pressed fittings everything looks like a crushed pop can


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

canuck92 said:


> I sweat as much as i can, iv used compression stops a handfull of times only when im in a pinch.
> Only time i grab the press tool is when im changing 100g tanks and a valve wont hold. Then ill press it so i dont have to shut a building down.
> I dont really like the look of pressed fittings everything looks like a crushed pop can





Doing service work I also sweat as much as I can. It's not that much more time that it changes the billed labor but it is much cheaper in parts. Also, sweat fittings are much easier to work with down the road. If you screw something up it all comes apart. Not all copper pipe is in good enough shape to crimp to, especially if you're repairing it because there are pinholes.



And lastly, arguably the most important aspect is space, you can solder in a much smaller space. Who wants to open up dry plaster to get the press tool in? Just stick to the water damaged area.










.


----------



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Will said:


> Been awhile since I posted much. COVID stuff has got me not working as much. Anyway I'm getting into more New Construction. Uponor is king in my area(NE Oklahoma) but I'm not a fan. It leaks a lot on recirc lines, chlorine eats it up, plus I just don't like the stuff. I usually install Sioux Chief PEX pipe, fittings and rings. Anyway, any plumbers out there installing CPVC? Not common here, and I'd like some real world feed back from other plumbers that do install it or work in areas where it is more common. Anyone have installs lasting 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 years etc?


Cpvc is a good time tested material that will last just as long as pex and maybe longer than today's copper,we have used it a lot in the past and had no problems just have to use more straps than on copper,it will get brittle but that does not affect how the pipe and fittings hold up at all,it is the only plastic besides pex that is allowed under concrete inside a house or building but we never put it underground,just above ground,it's easy to install and a lot cheaper than pex or copper,nothing wrong with it at all imo

Oh and one reason it snaps off when turning a stop valve on or off is because people just grab the handle instead of holding backup with the other hand and twist the crap out of the pipe and it snaps off,most stops that haven't been turned in a while get tight and require a lot of torque to turn the valve and if you don't hold the valve while turning it then it will snap off and cause a flood,always know where the meter or main cut off is before messing with the water system in a multistory blding


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

sparky said:


> Cpvc is a good time tested material that will last just as long as pex and maybe longer than today's copper,we have used it a lot in the past and had no problems just have to use more straps than on copper,*it will get brittle but that does not affect how the pipe and fittings hold up at all*
> 
> Oh and one reason it snaps off when turning a stop valve on or off is because people just grab the handle instead of holding backup with the other hand and twist the crap out of the pipe and it snaps off,*most stops that haven't been turned in a while get tight and require a lot of torque to turn the valve and if you don't hold the valve while turning it then it will snap off and cause a flood*,always know where the meter or main cut off is before messing with the water system in a multistory blding





So you admit that *it gets brittle* and you think this is fine but then you proceed to say why this is bad and how it *can cause a flood.* And you think it's *okay to install this schit?* :vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:









Pvc/cpvc is crap as far as pressure. I love it for drains and wouldn't use anything else in that case. But you couldn't get me to use anything less than grey sch.80 cpvc for pressure, even if you held a gun to my head. And even then, I don't like it over 30psi.











.


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

GAN said:


> .......We would install and in a few hours with moderate pressure could energize the lines. Never took the 24 hour cure time as suggested for us to use......









*This right here^^^^^^^^^:surprise:
*
*
*
Unless you're on a jobsite for more than a couple days are you really going to give it 24hrs to cure?

*
*


Tell me savy business owners, how many ways can the customer phuck you in court when it fails? Maybe on a newcon/reno job you could get away with it. But service? Bill out 3hrs with no return, how could you possibly argue in court that it got a 24hr cure time as manufacturer states is needed? Did you leave with the water off without ever verifying it wouldn't leak? Are you going to go back to every house you use it in 24hrs later to turn the water on? Homeowner says you turned it on before you left and never came back.




I think it's crap no matter how long the glue cures. Maybe 30 years ago it made sense but now you have so many other options that don't snap.









.


----------



## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

If I'm doing repairs on cpvc I use the lava glue. That one doesn't need 24 hours before being pressurized. If I had to wait 24 hours I'm sure my customers would be fine using sharkbites.


----------



## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

Will, agree bad reputation of piping systems are largely from poor installation. A lot of sloppy work is installed by legal licensed contractors using unskilled and untrained employees, and by anyone else. 
Ruling PEX out based on your opinion leaves Copper vs CPVC. I think its a hard sell to push cpvc in most areas these days . Copper is a hard sale for price. Cheap Residential isnt going to support Copper. In my area a guy doing residential new work really needs to be open to using PEX. But if you can get the work no tools needed for cpvc . No matter what you install we are putting our necks on the block I feel safest with copper but any failure we get blamed even when the roof leaks they say its plumbing ha ha

How have you been plumbing homes recently Will?


----------



## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Good to see some other commits from installers where CPVC has held up. Like I said before I used to work for a plumber that would do Huge apartments all over Texas, and CPVC was the piping used. 100's of units per complex. They where mega complexes near universities. Never many call backs. Never used any threaded connection that wasn't a metal head, and only used CPVC approved pipe dope. It held up well even if it seemed like cheap stuff. The longest installs where from the 80s, was mid 2000s at the time I did that work so not sure if it is still going strong or not. But when I moved to Oklahoma 10 years ago, no one uses CPVC here at all. Only PEX and some copper. 

I use PEX B (Sioux Cheif PowerPEX mostly) and Sioux Chief F1807 Brass fittings (Made in USA) and Sioux Chief copper rings. No complains on it much on my end. Uponor (PEX A) problems all over. Leaks all the time here in Tulsa. Seems to last about 10-15 years. No Viega PEX here local.

I just kinda forgot about CPVC the last 10 years, so was wanting some real world feedback from other plumbers. I really don't feel like PEX is better than CPVC, think for whatever reason PEX manufactures done a better job marketing there product and have won the approval of Plumbers more.

As for compression stops. I use them all the time and have always and so does other plumbers here in Oklahoma and same in Texas. I've never had a failure or leak ever unless there was a manufacture defect.


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

If you want to glue pipe why don't you buy AquaRise? That's what's done here in condo highrise mains and supermarkets.


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Will said:


> ..............I used to work for a plumber that would do Huge apartments all over Texas, and CPVC was the piping used...................I just kinda forgot about CPVC the last 10 years, so was wanting some real world feedback from other plumbers. I really don't feel like PEX is better than CPVC, think for whatever reason PEX manufactures done a better job marketing there product and have won the approval of Plumbers more..................


Pex is pretty much the exact same as black polyethylene waterline that gets buried except pex is even tougher. There have to be thousands of miles of that stuff buried many states. It's used for cutting boards and winch lines and even for pulling cargo ships. Polyethylene is one of the best plastics we have.


You already made the choice and just wanted someone to tell you you're not an azzhole for being that cheap. Do what you want, but don't fool yourself. Yes, lots of cpvc lasts, that's not the point, a lot of it fails too, a lot more than pex or copper. The issue is the risk. How likely is it that there will be an issue? And when it does break how bad will it be? A slight split that sprays a little? No, it will crack off.

If you think the risk is fine and just want cheap as possible than go right ahead.








.


----------



## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> Pex is pretty much the exact same as black polyethylene waterline that gets buried except pex is even tougher. There have to be thousands of miles of that stuff buried many states. It's used for cutting boards and winch lines and even for pulling cargo ships. Polyethylene is one of the best plastics we have.
> 
> 
> You already made the choice and just wanted someone to tell you you're not an azzhole for being that cheap. Do what you want, but don't fool yourself. Yes, lots of cpvc lasts, that's not the point, a lot of it fails too, a lot more than pex or copper. The issue is the risk. How likely is it that there will be an issue? And when it does break how bad will it be? A slight split that sprays a little? No, it will crack off.
> ...


wow. you are the best plumber in the world that only uses the best materials. nothing wrong with cpvc. its approved in my state so that means that my state plumbing code is for hacks. every area has their own material preferences. flo guard gold probably has a better warranty than the materials that you install. i dont install cpvc but i will not degrade anyone that does.


----------



## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

Plumbed a big hospitol Water 2 1/2 inch and above victualic. 2 inch down was all propress it was all prefabbed . Did I like it? no . Hangars pre fabbed too. Its differant I dont always do it the way I want. When you need 30 guys on a job putting pipe together some people might think propress is safer than soldering. 

Back on CPVC I think to be worth running CPVC in an area that its clearly not well liked or used wouldnt be worth while exept in a special circumstance but not on an average home.


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

I would imagine water quality and the chemicals added to it have more of an impact on the life of plastics and even copper...smart thing may be to test water and install what will hold up best with what water you have where your installing whatever you decide to install..


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> wow. you are the best plumber in the world that only uses the best materials. nothing wrong with cpvc. its approved in my state so that means that my state plumbing code is for hacks. every area has their own material preferences.* flo guard gold probably has a better warranty than the materials that you install.* i dont install cpvc but i will not degrade anyone that does.





Thanks for the compliments, I strive to do the best. Buck up champ, You'll get there too one day! :devil3:




Pvc is code legal in my area too. Lots of things are code legal, doesn't meant they are best practice. We all know the differences between different types of construction. Like steve lav says "Ain't no taj mahal baby!". Different strokes for different folks.




And I have no problem admitting that cpvc can be a good choice, like shtrnsdwnhill suggested, water quality is really what's the issue here. In fact, flo guard makes a point to show that they don't care what the water quality is, they will cover it under their 30 year warranty while the other companies won't. Cpvc is also one of the best plastics we have in this modern world. But frankly pex is better* most* of the time for potable water. Flo guard used to only have a 10 year warranty that they had dropped form 25, essentially admitting their stuff was prone to failure.




But warranty because of defects in manufacturing is not what I warned of. I brought up the fact that he could be held liable for not letting it cure for 24hrs as would happen in a service call scenario.


And I didn't degrade him, I was just annoyed he came in here asking for opinions and then proceeded to ignore the ones that didn't fit his preferred view of the world. But don't we all do that :wink:







.


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> Thanks for the compliments, I strive to do the best. Buck up champ, You'll get there too one day! :devil3:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ya think????:vs_laugh: :vs_laugh: :vs_laugh: :vs_laugh: :vs_laugh:


----------



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

It boils down to this,cpvc is just as good as any other approved waterline material as long as it's installed correctly,case closed


----------



## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Lucky for me I've been around a long long time. I know all about the hide behind the screens computer stone throwers. I know what is real and what is not, I'm a respected plumber in the real world and online, no sweat, carry on. 

If the thread bothers you don't respond. I'm not picking what I like and don't like. I've seen PEX fail all over, there is nothing special about it. I see pros and cons to all materials. I'm asking the question because for the last 15 years I've have not installed CPVC, and was asking for feedback from plumbers who have. I'm doing more new construction than I have in past, CPVC is just an option.


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Will said:


> Lucky for me I've been around a long long time. I know all about the hide behind the screens computer stone throwers. I know what is real and what is not, I'm a respected plumber in the real world and online, no sweat, carry on.
> 
> If the thread bothers you don't respond. I'm not picking what I like and don't like. I've seen PEX fail all over, there is nothing special about it. I see pros and cons to all materials. I'm asking the question because for the last 15 years I've have not installed CPVC, and was asking for feedback from plumbers who have. I'm doing more new construction than I have in past, CPVC is just an option.



what do most plumbers in your area install? in code by me they still list brass and galvanized pipe, but NO ONE installs it.....its usually copper or pex...the question comes down to do you want to be the odd man out if problems arise??? in the end its your choice what to install and if its in the code book your legally covered from using it, but down the road and who knows how far, if problems arise will it come up as your one of the few that used a certain product and now it failed will you end up paying the price?? or even if you dont have to pay out will you get dragged into court for damages?? that alone can cost big money just defending yourself...
and again that could happen no matter what you used.....
but there are no cure times with copper or pex...but plenty install them improper and end up with issues...


----------



## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

not sure where people are getting "24 hour cure time" from.............


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

sparky said:


> It boils down to this,cpvc is just as good as any other approved waterline material as long as it's installed correctly,case closed





No, that's wrong. When the home owner puts a pair of channellocks on a stop handle because they have arthritis the copper will spin 360 degrees and might tear a little. The cpvc will snap wide open.


That's just one example. With other options they give a piss trickle most of the time for a while and you see some drops from your ceiling or a wet spot on the floor. Cpvc gets brittle and when it fails it's wide open. 









.


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> No, that's wrong. When the home owner puts a pair of channellocks on a stop handle because they have arthritis the copper will spin 360 degrees and might tear a little. The cpvc will snap wide open.
> 
> 
> That's just one example. With other options they give a piss trickle most of the time for a while and you see some drops from your ceiling or a wet spot on the floor. Cpvc gets brittle and when it fails it's wide open.
> ...


I havent installed any cpvc, but I plumbed my koi pond with schedule 40 pvc and pvc ball and gate valves fro 1 1/2 up to 4inch..and the ball valves in short time definitely get hard to move and the sliding gate valves work great....


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I havent installed any cpvc, but I plumbed my koi pond with schedule 40 pvc and pvc ball and gate valves fro 1 1/2 up to 4inch..and the ball valves in short time definitely get hard to move and the sliding gate valves work great....







Yeah, the bigger sizes don't seem to have as much of an issue but they are also usually at lower pressures and don't see acidic well water or chlorinated town water. Sewage, as nasty as it is, usually seems surprisingly easy for pvc to handle chemically.


I have dealt with a number of peach colored dwv pvc and cpvc from the 60's/70's that got brittle but also some that was tougher than new stuff. I have to assume most of that is variability in manufacturing, indicative of the then fledgling industry. 



The gate valves are definitely better than the ball valves for durability. I'll take a piss trickle when off versus not being able to turn a ball valve at all. Ball valves just have way to much surface area friction all the time and when they get mineral buildup you're screwed.


We've all seen pvc/cpvc snap/crack and had to ream a fitting out, or had a female adapter split, or a male adapter in a sewage pump snap off when your helper pulls too hard.




*Maybe in some areas the cts cpvc tubing is great, but in my experience it's more trouble/liability then it's worth*, fails disastrously, and is a pain to work on later because you're always short on space between fittings for what you want to do. Mind you that last one is a problem with propress and sometimes pex too. Although with pex you can remove a crimp ring and reuse the next fitting.




*As a service guy, pvc/cpvc potable tubing has been a nightmare and a liability everytime I have to deal with it.*
*
*
*
*
.


----------



## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Bayside500 said:


> not sure where people are getting "24 hour cure time" from.............



Big difference between "set time" (to safely energize) and fully cured time. Size, humidity, pressure, etc.

Use the same thought process as far as concrete. When is it safe to load compared to fully cured.

For instance some of the concrete in the center of the hover damn is still not cured.


----------



## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

Well Give it a try Install it the stuff is still out there. Im not going to push cpvc but if someone requested it Id run it. Its not really a selling point for me unless I can get paid copper prices to install it I got nothing to gain. Interesting no one seems to be installing it lately. I basicaly push copper , thats my favorite sweat copper.


----------



## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

jeffreyplumber said:


> Well Give it a try Install it the stuff is still out there. Im not going to push cpvc but if someone requested it Id run it. Its not really a selling point for me unless I can get paid copper prices to install it I got nothing to gain. Interesting no one seems to be installing it lately. I basicaly push copper , thats my favorite sweat copper.


Copper is #1 for me, followed by brass Rehau. The customer determines the material for their budget.

Warranty is based on material.


----------



## RyanPlumber1982 (Mar 19, 2017)

CPVC is junk and we can’t rip it out of the walls fast enough around here. Brittle junk.
All I use is wirsbo and I have never had a problem with it in 15 years other than return lines on recirc twice.
As someone previously said, Uponor or Wirsbo can have problems on the Recirc line but if you upsize it the problem is solved.


----------



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> No, that's wrong. When the home owner puts a pair of channellocks on a stop handle because they have arthritis the copper will spin 360 degrees and might tear a little. The cpvc will snap wide open.
> 
> 
> That's just one example. With other options they give a piss trickle most of the time for a while and you see some drops from your ceiling or a wet spot on the floor. Cpvc gets brittle and when it fails it's wide open.
> ...


Homeowners should not be tryin to work on their own plbing in the first place,cpvc is just as good as any other material approved for waterlines,every dang one of the approved pipes have their pros and cons,if you want to install a cheap costing water distribution system that will last as long as the blding then cpvc is what you need to install,nothing wrong with it at all


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

sparky said:


> *Homeowners should not be tryin to work on their own plbing in the first place*,cpvc is just as good as any other material approved for waterlines,every dang one of the approved pipes have their pros and cons,if you want to install a cheap costing water distribution system that will last as long as the blding then cpvc is what you need to install,nothing wrong with it at all





*Since when is turning off a stop working on your own plumbing?* :vs_laugh:


That's why they are there!! For when the toilet or faucet won't shut off, or if the appliance leaks!!! 



You're grasping at straws.









.


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

sparky said:


> Homeowners should not be tryin to work on their own plbing in the first place,cpvc is just as good as any other material approved for waterlines,every dang one of the approved pipes have their pros and cons,if you want to install a cheap costing water distribution system that will last as long as the *TRAILER* then cpvc is what you need to install,nothing wrong with it at all





There, I fixed it for you :vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:








.


----------



## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

3/4" and 1/2" recirc lines fail in my area very regularly on Uponor/Wirsbo. Uponor/Wirsbo also changes over time, turns green, gets black spots, ink from code approval writing on pipe bleeds through, developed pinholes, weak vs chlorine and high pressures, even the red or blue coating falls off or leaches into piping. I have zero trust in Uponor/Wirsbo pipe. Also the fittings from 5+ years ago or more in the EP line get extremely brittle like glass. Somehow Uponor changed there EP fittings to be different without making it known. Hit an old fittings with a hammer and they go into a million pieces like glass, hit the new EP fittings(there a more solid black and smoother than old multi colored EP fittings) and they crush more instead of splinter. 


Flowguard rep sent me a link the other day about Bendable CPVC. It's CPVC-AL-CPVC pipe. I've never seen that before, anyone seen it before?


----------



## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

One can find fault in just about any material.

Lead poisons, galvanized rusts, HTPV was recalled, Polybutylene (quest), ABS suit in 1998, Kitec Polymer 1995-2007, a few years of Mexican made copper with higher amounts of iron than U.S. manufactures. Any plastics exposed to U.V. will fail, Black Iron fittings made out of U.S. have had a pin hole issue, NIBCO PEX class action in 2018, not sure of the material but I remember replacing some of the first direct vent furnace piping (gray) for melting.


----------



## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

Sure can find fault , failure bad batches and lawsuits on I think all piping material.
Once again Will you strongly hate pex dont use it. You can be the lone proponet of cpvc in your area. So give an option copper or cpvc. Pretty much no one gave a good opinion on cpvc so on what basis do you want to use it strictly cost? Ive thought about using it but certainly no one is convincing me how good it is on here. A rental house or flip quick buck , Someone wants a cheaper job yea ok but im not going to sugest it. 
My Mom bought a house in 2001 near daytona fl it was 5 years old its all cpvc no leaks on a recirc hot water system, I cringe but its still good .


----------



## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

jeffreyplumber said:


> Sure can find fault , failure bad batches and lawsuits on I think all piping material.
> Once again Will you strongly hate pex dont use it. You can be the lone proponet of cpvc in your area. So give an option copper or cpvc. Pretty much no one gave a good opinion on cpvc so on what basis do you want to use it strictly cost? Ive thought about using it but certainly no one is convincing me how good it is on here. A rental house or flip quick buck , Someone wants a cheaper job yea ok but im not going to sugest it.
> My Mom bought a house in 2001 near daytona fl it was 5 years old its all cpvc no leaks on a recirc hot water system, I cringe but its still good .


I guess you "clearly" didn't read my previous post on pvc. Where I stated I had used it, had minimal issues as well as one other poster.


----------



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Will said:


> 3/4" and 1/2" recirc lines fail in my area very regularly on Uponor/Wirsbo. Uponor/Wirsbo also changes over time, turns green, gets black spots, ink from code approval writing on pipe bleeds through, developed pinholes, weak vs chlorine and high pressures, even the red or blue coating falls off or leaches into piping. I have zero trust in Uponor/Wirsbo pipe. Also the fittings from 5+ years ago or more in the EP line get extremely brittle like glass. Somehow Uponor changed there EP fittings to be different without making it known. Hit an old fittings with a hammer and they go into a million pieces like glass, hit the new EP fittings(there a more solid black and smoother than old multi colored EP fittings) and they crush more instead of splinter.
> 
> 
> Flowguard rep sent me a link the other day about Bendable CPVC. It's CPVC-AL-CPVC pipe. I've never seen that before, anyone seen it before?


Never used it but I heard of it before,I think it would be just fine


----------



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

GAN said:


> One can find fault in just about any material.
> 
> Lead poisons, galvanized rusts, HTPV was recalled, Polybutylene (quest), ABS suit in 1998, Kitec Polymer 1995-2007, a few years of Mexican made copper with higher amounts of iron than U.S. manufactures. Any plastics exposed to U.V. will fail, Black Iron fittings made out of U.S. have had a pin hole issue, NIBCO PEX class action in 2018, not sure of the material but I remember replacing some of the first direct vent furnace piping (gray) for melting.


Yes


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

sparky said:


> Never used it but I heard of it before,I think it would be just fine





I think it would be fine if you use insert fittings. If you use standard solvent fittings what happens when the layers delaminate? You'll get the water squeezing between the outer and middle layer.


Ever seen kitec snap off at the fitting? It's like ripping a phone book. If you spread the load across all the layers it takes a lot of force. But if you move the layers just enough that you can rip them one at a time than it's easy.






.


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> I think it would be fine if you use insert fittings. If you use standard solvent fittings what happens when the layers delaminate? You'll get the water squeezing between the outer and middle layer.
> 
> 
> Ever seen kitec snap off at the fitting? It's like ripping a phone book. If you spread the load across all the layers it takes a lot of force. But if you move the layers just enough that you can rip them one at a time than it's easy.
> ...





................................


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> ................................


Oh oh, I think we'll be seeing that dead horse often. :vs_laugh::vs_laugh:

I can hear coming up next "PVC the superior white pipe"... I wonder who says that all the time.:biggrin:


----------

