# Soldering chromed brass tubular to lead pipe



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

How much success have you had with soldering chromed brass tubular to old lead drain arms?


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

100%


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

No problemo..........


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

What kind of solder do you use? The pipes never too thin?


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

You can use 95/5 or 50/50. Sand the chrome off and go to town. Doesn't take that much heat.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> You can use 95/5 or 50/50. Sand the chrome off and go to town. Doesn't take that much heat.


I thought 95/5 had a melting point of about 400 degrees. No problems with the lead pipe melting huh?


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Never had a problem here. Put more heat on the wall arm. I also will solder my dutchmans to brass flanges with 95/5 if thats all I have.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I always thought that the pieces being soldered together must both reach the melting point of the solder being used to form a proper bond. I guess thats not true.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

For pressure joints that is true.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> For pressure joints that is true.


So depending on if the pipe holds pressure or not determines how the solder flows.....I understand now.:thumbsup:


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I use leaded solder. eek No problem. 

(It's lead pipe, anyway)


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> How much success have you had with soldering chromed brass tubular to old lead drain arms?


 
*Correct me if I'm wrong. Nobody mentioned tinning the brass prior to soldering it to lead. *

*Even back in the lead wiping days brass was always tinned prior to wiping it to lead. **Ever try to solder a brass flange on a lead bend with out tinning the brass? Could't do it properly could you? *


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

50/50 lead solder is not code approved, not even on drain lines.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Here is a 17ga chromed brass tubular extension I soldered into an old lead drain. I think it turned out nice.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

How in the world did you do that without melting the lead????? :whistling2:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> How in the world did you do that without melting the lead????? :whistling2:


I didn't use 95/5:whistling2:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Here take a closer look.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

JB Weld...........that's clever.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Sand the plating off next time.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> 50/50 lead solder is not code approved, not even on drain lines.


 
While that may be the case. We are talking about a lead drain. A little bar lead or 50/50 solder isn't going to kill anyone.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> JB Weld...........that's clever.


You dont know what your looking at do you??? :laughing: Thats soldered with wiping lead:whistling2:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Matt said:


> Sand the plating off next time.


It is removed...where it matters. In the joint:thumbsup:


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

No TM, you're right this is only my 3rd month as a plummer.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> No TM, you're right this is only my 3rd month as a plummer.


I know I'm right. Thats not JB weld. I dont care if you have been plumbing 300 years or 30 minutes.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I fit the tailpiece into the lead arm and marked the joint with a saw blade. Then removed the tubular from the lead and went up about 1/16 of an inch and removed the plating from that point down. It makes a clean joint that way.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> I fit the tailpiece into the lead arm and marked the joint with a saw blade. Then removed the tubular from the lead and went up about 1/16 of an inch and removed the plating from that point down. It makes a clean joint that way.


Clean and professional looking job. When I've soldered lead shower pans, the trick is to keep the heat moving so as not to blow a hole in lead pan. You scratch the lead with a fitting brush (so lead is shiny) apply Oatey #5 flux and then solder. When soldering brass w/c flange to a lead closet riser, keep heat more on brass or else.....


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Thats the cleanest one Ive seen....Ive done a couple as they say back in the day....I would heat the tubular and just touch the lead occaisionally and then " hope"...

Now in Florida rubber connectors abound.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

In these pics I'm talking it apart to show it not JB weld. Homemade wiping lead stick solder included.


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## grandpa (Jul 13, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I always thought that the pieces being soldered together must both reach the melting point of the solder being used to form a proper bond. I guess thats not true.


The melting point of pure lead is about 620ºF.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

grandpa said:


> The melting point of pure lead is about 620ºF.


Yes but theres more to it than melting point temp alone. Here is some info. The temp range that the metal can be "worked" is important. 150-200 degrees is not much when using a torch and the existing pipe is old and thin. lead free solder doesn't flow like lead and it cools to a solid VERY VERY quickly.

Eutectic alloys melt at a single temperature. Non-eutectic alloys have markedly different solidus and liquidus temperature, and within that range they exist as a paste of solid particles in a melt of the lower-melting phase. The pasty state causes some problems during handling; it can however be exploited as it allows molding of the solder during cooling, e.g. for ensuring watertight joint of pipes, resulting in a so called *wiped joint*.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

TM, I didn't know JB Weld would melt like that.............:whistling2:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> TM, I didn't know JB Weld would melt like that.............:whistling2:


Yeah you hafta mix it with a feather and wave a dream catcher across it and it flows like lead.:whistling2: Try it:laughing:


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Yeah you hafta mix it with a feather and wave a dream catcher across it and it flows like lead.:whistling2: Try it:laughing:


I detect a little sarcasm in your post. You wouldn't be referring to my heritage, would you? :whistling2:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> I detect a little sarcasm in your post. You wouldn't be referring to my heritage, would you? :whistling2:


I've been attempting to discuss lead and lead pipe and joining chromed brass. 

You seem to wanna talk about JB Weld and other things. Deal with it or get back on subject sir.:thumbsup:


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Exxccuuuuseee Meeeee.............I'm outta here.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I've been attempting to discuss lead and lead pipe and joining chromed brass.
> 
> And it's a good discussion. TM I understand where you're coming from, but I was taught a different way. My way was to make a bit joint on the lead. [take a turn pin and with a mallet flare out the lead]. Then with a shave hook scrape the lead clean. If C.P. Brass is to be soldered then the chrome must be removed and the brass tinned. Copper being soldered in does not have to be tinned, just cleaned. All the cleaned parts shall be fluxed. I then take my torch and heat up a 3 lb. copper iron the finished joint is made with a iron.
> 
> ...


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

This is a great alternative, it provides a leak proof seal. A good plumber can install this for a fair price, id say around 2-3 hundred. 

If the Plumber did the job with lead it might cost around 600 bucks, but it would be done "the right way"


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

My method was exactly as you described. I cut the lead arm,used a swaging tool to expand the lead to the proper O.D.,scraped the pipe clean and roughed it up alitte with a fitting brush, fit my tubular piece in and scribe a line,remove the tubular and clean the chrome finish off the tubular from a point 1/16" above my scribed mark(this makes a super sharp line because the solder will not stick to the chrome),fluxed everything with a light coat of tinning flux by oatey,inserted the tailpiece back into the lead bell and tapped the joint closed with a wooden dowel. Heated and soldered it. Wiped it smooth. The result is in the pic.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Thats nice and all TM Been there and done that myself...

Then I found out that a judicious application of a sawzall to the lead was more desirable to both my wallet and the customers drain system reliability...:laughing:

Get the lead out and get back to work!:thumbup:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

What was the situation TM? What made you have to save the lead arm?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

slickrick said:


> What was the situation TM? What made you have to save the lead arm?


No situation. That is a lead arm I replaced and before I melt it down for flange lead I decided solder a brass tailpiece on it and post it on the forum for discussion. Some plumbers dont get a chance to see any lead pipe in their area.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Can anybody identify these [I know the old timers can] I still have a couple here in the shop.


DWV Unions??


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> DWV Unions??


Lead Piping ... The photo below shows *Athode* *Unions* ... A method of joining lead from years ago which did not require wiping.

The right hand part is for lead drainage to IP 1-1/2" both ends. The left hand part of the photo is for 5/8" lead to 3/4 IP.

To use you slipped the end with the nut over the lead, then with a turn pin you flared the lead out, then with a ballpeen hammer you flattened the lead against the flange, then you took a rasp and filed the excess lead to the diameter of the fitting. Finally you coupled to the other end, the lead you hammered flat became the gasket and the pressure caused by tightening the nut created the seal. 

This is a copy of a post [topic] made in March of this year. I used search and typed in Athode Unions


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Lead Piping ... The photo below shows *Athode**Unions* ... A method of joining lead from years ago which did not require wiping.
> 
> The right hand part is for lead drainage to IP 1-1/2" both ends. The left hand part of the photo is for 5/8" lead to 3/4 IP.
> 
> ...


 
its faster to use a fernco. :laughing:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

When I've done lead shower pans on a job, guys stop to look in amazement. It puts you in the upper eschelon of plumbers to be able to work with lead pans, waste arms, water services, etc. But like most people want, we usually gut everything and install plastic. Plastic, flex this, flex that is cheapening this trade. But times have changed.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I do what is best for the customer and remove the lead drains. I wouldn't even try working with them as I've seen them run through floors 20' or more. I've never seen a consistant radius when it turns as the O.D. is different. Plastic or Cast iron are consistant radiuses in the bends, and therefore I think better materials for drain piping.


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## bigdawginc (Sep 6, 2010)

*bigdawginc*

u gottta b kidding, these mofo,s r master plumbers & cantdo a bit joint!!! i am pissing myself over dis chat!!!!:thumbup:


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

I honestly cannot remember if I've ever soldered a brass tailpiece to lead. I have soldered plenty of tailpieces. There used to be solder-on tailpiece extensions. (There probably still are.) In the Good Old Days, plumbers used to make their own tubular - flanging their own tailpiece stock and soldering threads on it. 

Of course, when I started there were lots of soldered lead pans and flashings. It was common to make our own pipe flashings for hot-mopped roofs. Ah, those were the days. You can have 'em. I never could wipe a joint without burning my thumb.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

bigdawginc said:


> u gottta b kidding, these mofo,s r master plumbers & cantdo a bit joint!!! i am pissing myself over dis chat!!!!:thumbup:


Looks like a potential signature line to me:laughing:


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