# Steam trap leaking



## Plumber patt

Got a call at a 100 year old church we look after, steam trap and feed piping are leaking, it's in a basement under the church floor in a beauty of a crawl space, today will be fun... Here are some pics, will post finished product st end of day


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## Gettinit

Couple of 2# hammers and pipe wrenches and you are in business.


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## Plumber patt

Oh ya, very little room to even turn the wrench that's the trouble


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## Gettinit

Good Luck and stay safe!


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## Plumber patt

All done


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## Plumber patt

Oops


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## Tim`s Plumbing

Not to be picky but I would use cast iron 90s black malleable fittings should not be used on steam. I also never use gate valves.


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## Plumber patt

Explain


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## Tim`s Plumbing

Black Mallable fittings will rust out much quicker than cast iron 90s. As far as gate valves go I can`t stand them I would have used 600 wog ball valves.


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## Plumber patt

So you use cast iron 90s on hydronic systems also? And ball valves do not hold up to the temperatures of steam, the plastic fails after a year or two


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## Tim`s Plumbing

If you buy ball valves rated for steam they hold up just fine. And no I don`t use cast fittings on hydronic heating it is completely differant steam piping is not full all the time where hydronic is.


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## Plumber patt

Cast fittings are going to flake and every ball valve I have seen on steam systems are always passing but 50 year old gate valves still work today, I like the tried and tested methods


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## johnlewismcleod

Steam pipe and fittings are to be sch80 (or cast fittings) down here also.

S40 malleable doesn't hold up...but look at the bright side: you'll get to climb back in there and fix it again in a few years :jester:


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## Plumber patt

There is definitely nothing in the code where I am from that says anything about that. There are lots of steam systems here that are entirely piped in black iron


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## Gettinit

I personally prefer globe valves on steam.


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## Catlin987987

Plumber patt said:


> There is definitely nothing in the code where I am from that says anything about that. There are lots of steam systems here that are entirely piped in black iron


Nothing in our code says it must be Sch 80 either


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## U666A

johnlewismcleod said:


> Steam pipe and fittings are to be sch80 (or cast fittings) down here also.
> 
> S40 malleable doesn't hold up...but look at the bright side: you'll get to climb back in there and fix it again in a few years :jester:


Do they designate BMI fittings by schedule down there?

Here for schedule 80 pipe we would use 300# or 600# fittings, whereas 150# is your sch 40 equivalent.


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## Plumber patt

Gettinit said:


> I personally prefer globe valves on steam.


I like globe valves if there is a need to throttle. But these were only installed for on/off purpose to service that trap in the future.


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## Gettinit

Plumber patt said:


> I like globe valves if there is a need to throttle. But these were only installed for on/off purpose to service that trap in the future.


Nothing wrong with your choice.


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## johnlewismcleod

U666A said:


> Do they designate BMI fittings by schedule down there?
> 
> Here for schedule 80 pipe we would use 300# or 600# fittings, whereas 150# is your sch 40 equivalent.


Same here :yes:


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## johnlewismcleod

Plumber patt said:


> There is definitely nothing in the code where I am from that says anything about that. There are lots of steam systems here that are entirely piped in black iron


No offense meant, pat...I was just arseing around. 

Everyone's got different code requirements, I was really just verifying that ours is similar to Tim's over here in my area: S40 malleable not allowed on steam.


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## goob

Steam is schedule 40 and condensate is sch 80 arround here. depends on pressure of steam on valve recomdations


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## Plumber patt

Definitely not taking offense no worries mate


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## makinHW

Plumber patt said:


> Got a call at a 100 year old church we look after, steam trap and feed piping are leaking, it's in a basement under the church floor in a beauty of a crawl space, today will be fun... Here are some pics, will post finished product st end of day


What is it with Mondays!!


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

johnlewismcleod said:


> Steam pipe and fittings are to be sch80 (or cast fittings) down here also.
> 
> S40 malleable doesn't hold up...but look at the bright side: you'll get to climb back in there and fix it again in a few years :jester:


I ran low pressure steam in Blk sch40 pipe and fittings.


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## Plumber patt

This also was low pressure, 5psi


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## theplumbinator

Black fittings in a hydronic system are not exposed to fresh oxygen every day thats y they last. Steam systems are full of air all the time. Its not against code to use black but, cast would be a longer lasting choice. Still looks good nice wet return repair. For the amount of space you had to work in.


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## theplumbinator

Plumber patt said:


> So you use cast iron 90s on hydronic systems also? And ball valves do not hold up to the temperatures of steam, the plastic fails after a year or two


That's a return you wont be getting high temp water, just cooling return condensation. Ball valve would work there. Nothing wrong with gate either just a personal choice.


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## UA22PLumber

I wish we could pipe in traps like that now-a-days,having a drip trap right out of a heel outlet 90.............of course you do what ya gotta do,when space is that cramped.


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## theplumbinator

UA22PLumber said:


> I wish we could pipe in traps like that now-a-days,having a drip trap right out of a heel outlet 90.............of course you do what ya gotta do,when space is that cramped.


I wish we didn't have to mess around with steam period lol.


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## UA22PLumber

I enjoy it...I love the smell of thread cutting oil...smells like victory


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## theplumbinator

UA22PLumber said:


> I enjoy it...I love the smell of thread cutting oil...smells like victory


Haha I get the same satisfaction from gas pipe too... rather be doing that.


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## Plumber patt

Repairing steam stuff beats cleaning urinals and other every day service stuff


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## rjbphd

Gettinit said:


> I personally prefer globe valves on steam.


WHAT?????? Never use globe valves on steam system!


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## rjbphd

Plumber patt said:


> Oops


You didn't use enough tape and dope on every threaded connection.


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## rjbphd

Plumber patt said:


> Cast fittings are going to flake and every ball valve I have seen on steam systems are always passing but 50 year old gate valves still work today, I like the tried and tested methods


Cast iron fittings gonna flake? Where the flake you get that information???? What's the steam boiler made of??


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## rjbphd

Plumber patt said:


> This also was low pressure, 5psi


That's way TOO much pressure for a low pressure system!! CRANK IT DOWN!


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## rjbphd

theplumbinator said:


> I wish we didn't have to mess around with steam period lol.


Give me all the steam you have!


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## rjbphd

theplumbinator said:


> Black fittings in a hydronic system are not exposed to fresh oxygen every day thats y they last. Steam systems are full of air all the time. Its not against code to use black but, cast would be a longer lasting choice. Still looks good nice wet return repair. For the amount of space you had to work in.


 Reason for using cast on steam system... in future replacment, instead of cutting ( before sawall was invented) or unscrewing the pipes... it was cheaper to crack those fittings...


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## theplumbinator

rjbphd said:


> Reason for using cast on steam system... in future replacment, instead of cutting ( before sawall was invented) or unscrewing the pipes... it was cheaper to crack those fittings...


Yeah I learned that trick from the first old man plumber I worked for. Smack both sides at same time with 2 hammers fittings pop right off.


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## U666A

theplumbinator said:


> Yeah I learned that trick from the first old man plumber I worked for. Smack both sides at same time with 2 hammers fittings pop right off.


That trick also works if you ever encounter expando.


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## newyorkcity

*sounds like*



theplumbinator said:


> Yeah I learned that trick from the first old man plumber I worked for. Smack both sides at same time with 2 hammers fittings pop right off.


you would be too close to the fitting. Risking having half the fitting smack you in the face.
We remove steam fittings all the time here. I prefer a more gentle approach. Make a slice with a small grinder with a slicing wheel. Use a small cold chisel as a wedge to open the fitting. Keep the chisel in while unscrewing the fitting as you clean the threads.


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## rjbphd

U666A said:


> That trick also works if you ever encounter expando.


Yay... another one know about Expando!!


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## rjbphd

newyorkcity said:


> you would be too close to the fitting. Risking having half the fitting smack you in the face.
> We remove steam fittings all the time here. I prefer a more gentle approach. Make a slice with a small grinder with a slicing wheel. Use a small cold chisel as a wedge to open the fitting. Keep the chisel in while unscrewing the fitting as you clean the threads.


Then ya standing in the wrong place! It art of the trade knowing where to hit it safety..


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## U666A

rjbphd said:


> Yay... another one know about Expando!!


That stuff is the devil...


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## theplumbinator

rjbphd said:


> Yay... another one know about Expando!!


Is that that powder crap you mix with water? Turns into like concrete? I think I remember using it on an oil tank fill and vent line with my old senior citizen boss when I was apprentcing. Now I use grip when i do them. The can looked like it was from the 1950's lol.


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## newyorkcity

*Why*



rjbphd said:


> Then ya standing in the wrong place! It art of the trade knowing where to hit it safety..


beat on a 100 year old piping system and create leaks elsewhere?
Often the seam of a fitting where you would hit it is close to a wall, or in a bad spot.
What do you do then?
Easy does it for me...


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## rjbphd

newyorkcity said:


> beat on a 100 year old piping system and create leaks elsewhere?
> Often the seam of a fitting where you would hit it is close to a wall, or in a bad spot.
> What do you do then?
> Easy does it for me...


Those 100 years old systems are better than those 10 years system I've seen..


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## rjbphd

theplumbinator said:


> Is that that powder crap you mix with water? Turns into like concrete? I think I remember using it on an oil tank fill and vent line with my old senior citizen boss when I was apprentcing. Now I use grip when i do them. The can looked like it was from the 1950's lol.


Love the stuff! Esp for those crooked/cockeyed threads we are getting nowdays... the can have been redesigned with the bs msda... old ones had shipbuilding fiitings on it..


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## Plumber patt

rjbphd said:


> That's way TOO much pressure for a low pressure system!! CRANK IT DOWN!


How is that way too much pressure?!


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## newyorkcity

I set a standard residential pressuretrol at .5 lbs. cut in, and 1.5 lbs. differential.
2 lbs. cut out and 1.5 diff. on a subtractive pressuretrol.


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## rjbphd

Plumber patt said:


> How is that way too much pressure?!


Get the "TLAOSH" book!


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## rjbphd

newyorkcity said:


> I set a standard residential pressuretrol at .5 lbs. cut in, and 1.5 lbs. differential.
> 2 lbs. cut out and 1.5 diff. on a subtractive pressuretrol.


Correct... sometimes even lower!


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## Gettinit

Steam moves faster at lower pressures but there has to be a reason its at 5 psi.


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## theplumbinator

5 lbs seems high for a single story structure like a church. Half pound to a pound should do it unless there is a huge balcony or something. Low pressure steam means low pressure. I understand steam heating is a race you need to get the steam to the radiators before it can condense but too much steam in pipe at one time becomes violent and can have bad results. Unless the system was designed for that much pressure. There is a lot of calculation to to to figure it out properly.


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## UA22PLumber

Things are relative I guess,low pressure steam = 15 psi or less to me.But I know nothing of residental steam systems.

Btw ...every steam by-pass valve I've ever put in or seen spec'ed out was a globe valve.What else would you use to throttle steam?


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## newyorkcity

*I believe*



UA22PLumber said:


> Things are relative I guess,low pressure steam = 15 psi or less to me.But I know nothing of residental steam systems.
> 
> Btw ...every steam by-pass valve I've ever put in or seen spec'ed out was a globe valve.What else would you use to throttle steam?


you would want a full port valve on the inlet and outlet of an F&T trap, like the OP installed.


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## Gettinit

UA22PLumber said:


> Things are relative I guess,low pressure steam = 15 psi or less to me.But I know nothing of residental steam systems.
> 
> Btw ...every steam by-pass valve I've ever put in or seen spec'ed out was a globe valve.What else would you use to throttle steam?


Isn't this the truth. I have took care of several 90 and 300 psi systems but what about them Navy men and power plants. Funny thing is I have seen more pipes wrecked on lower steam pressures than high. You know, the pipe that has a cork screw pattern etched into the wall.


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## theplumbinator

UA22PLumber said:


> Things are relative I guess,low pressure steam = 15 psi or less to me.But I know nothing of residental steam systems.
> 
> Btw ...every steam by-pass valve I've ever put in or seen spec'ed out was a globe valve.What else would you use to throttle steam?


Ive never seen a steam rad without one myself.


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## newyorkcity

We also work with low pressure steam, day in and out.
We use cast iron steam fittings exclusively, but I have never seen a malleable fitting fail on steam.


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## rjbphd

Gettinit said:


> Steam moves faster at lower pressures but there has to be a reason its at 5 psi.


Empire State Building is heated with steam less than 5psi..


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Wow. Do any of y'all have to work. I'd run y'all off for playing online !!! Lol.


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## rjbphd

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Wow. Do any of y'all have to work. I'd run y'all off for playing online !!! Lol.


What are YOU doing here???


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## UA22PLumber

newyorkcity said:


> you would want a full port valve on the inlet and outlet of an F&T trap, like the OP installed.


I didn't question the OP's choice of valves,my comment was directed towards rjbphd's comment...

"WHAT?????? Never use globe valves on steam system!"

Steam by-pass valves (by-passes around PRVs and control valves,where throttling of steam is desired)are commonly globe valves,what else would you use to throttle steam? 

....though it's common practice (in my experiance) to put a bypass around steam traps(for servicability),which are usually gate valves(FP ball valves rated for steam service are fine too),where throttling is not required ,but full port unrestricted flow is.


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## Plumber patt

The steam runs through a heat exchanger which heats water for rads through out the church (3 storey building) the only steam rads are in the large two storey sanctuary


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## theplumbinator

Plumber patt said:


> The steam runs through a heat exchanger which heats water for rads through out the church (3 storey building) the only steam rads are in the large two storey sanctuary


So measure everything figure how many sq. Feet of steam u need then set appropriate pressure for system according to chart. Or start low and increase pressure if you need to, that just takes a lot of time on the job running around checking everything. I personally would rather know I calculated the system myself and its right than trust what the guy before me did. Just sayin...


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## Plumber patt

Steam boilers were installed in 1965 and have been running at the same pressure since day 1, I'm not about to start messing with it now.


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## theplumbinator

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Wow. Do any of y'all have to work. I'd run y'all off for playing online !!! Lol.


Working on a UA Local 24 job today had to wait 3 hours for a carpenter to show up and open sheetrock. I get paid well to play on the Zone today.


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## newyorkcity

*oh, my*



theplumbinator said:


> Working on a UA Local 24 job today had to wait 3 hours for a carpenter to show up and open sheetrock. I get paid well to play on the Zone today.[/QU
> 
> Was it a huge section to open? 2 hour rated?
> Will you backcharge the carpenter?
> Was it something you could have done?


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## theplumbinator

rjbphd said:


> Empire State Building is heated with steam less than 5psi..


Does that bldg have a boiler or is it CON ED fed? Ive been in there before but never toured the mechanical room, just observation deck when I was a teenager. I can see it from rt. 3 in the morning on my way to work. Just curious since I grew up looking at it every day.


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## rjbphd

theplumbinator said:


> Does that bldg have a boiler or is it CON ED fed? Ive been in there before but never toured the mechanical room, just observation deck when I was a teenager. I can see it from rt. 3 in the morning on my way to work. Just curious since I grew up looking at it every day.


Not sure about that... I know its steam system.. the church been pizzing away all that fuel charge for running at 5 psi since 1965... that's about the time when every one think bigger is better as well more pressure is better.. not true with the dead men's theroy on the low pressure system


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## theplumbinator

Maybe half sheet. I could have opened myself, not allowed to. Cant have a hammer or keyhole saw in my tools. Usually at MacCal bldgs the maintenance guys cut the walls for us. But they didn't have anyone in the building today. My hall freaks out if I open more than 12"x12" hole. And I didn't know all the other A book guys Working in the building so wasn't gonna risk it. im back charging one hour.


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## theplumbinator

rjbphd said:


> Not sure about that... I know its steam system.. the church been pizzing away all that fuel charge for running at 5 psi since 1965... that's about the time when every one think bigger is better as well more pressure is better.. not true with the dead men's theroy on the low pressure system


The finger method of sizing lol. Stand across street hold your hand out and how ever many fingers you have to hold up to cover the building is how many sections you need to heat the place. Not how I do it either.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

theplumbinator said:


> Working on a UA Local 24 job today had to wait 3 hours for a carpenter to show up and open sheetrock. I get paid well to play on the Zone today.


U can't open a wall urself ???


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

theplumbinator said:


> Maybe half sheet. I could have opened myself, not allowed to. Cant have a hammer or keyhole saw in my tools. Usually at MacCal bldgs the maintenance guys cut the walls for us. But they didn't have anyone in the building today. My hall freaks out if I open more than 12"x12" hole. And I didn't know all the other A book guys Working in the building so wasn't gonna risk it. im back charging one hour.


No hammer or key hole saw. Wtf. No way in hell. Will I ever be told what tools I can't have in my bag. No disrespect but I think union rules are stupid as .......!! Can't open up wall cuz we can't steel 5 min of work from a carpenter Stupid. So lets have a plumber sit and wait. Real good management of money !!!


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## Tim`s Plumbing

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> No hammer or key hole saw. Wtf. No way in hell. Will I ever be told what tools I can't have in my bag. No disrespect but I think union rules are stupid as .......!! Can't open up wall cuz we can't steel 5 min of work from a carpenter Stupid. So lets have a plumber sit and wait. Real good management of money !!!


 TX I have worked on many jobs where I had to wait for the carpenter to cut and install blocking. They would blow a gasket if they saw a plumber installing their own blockng And it could get you thrown off the job. This one GC we worked with had a laborer who was a real go getter he would allways ask if we needed any holes drilled.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Blocking for plumbing fixtures ??


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## theplumbinator

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> No hammer or key hole saw. Wtf. No way in hell. Will I ever be told what tools I can't have in my bag. No disrespect but I think union rules are stupid as .......!! Can't open up wall cuz we can't steel 5 min of work from a carpenter Stupid. So lets have a plumber sit and wait. Real good management of money !!!


I totally agree thats y I hate the union and i dont do many jobs for them. Only reason I kept my book after I went on my own was to keep my annuity going, and the ability to work on schools or larger commercial service building. In the NY/NJ area the mob is a real thing not just something from a movie, they find you doing work in their turf without a union card there will most likely be a problem that I wouldn't want to deal with. Just easier to pay my dues every month and take on a job or two when they have it for me.


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## Tim`s Plumbing

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Blocking for plumbing fixtures ??


 For fixtures, straping pipes any thing to do with wood or metal studs was a carpenters job.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

So u tell him where to put blocks. That's helper work. Lol


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## theplumbinator

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> So u tell him where to put blocks. That's helper work. Lol


In the real world it is. But in the union world your taking food out of a carpenters kids mouth. At least thats the b.s. they feed u when your working for them.


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## rjbphd

theplumbinator said:


> In the real world it is. But in the union world your taking food out of a carpenters kids mouths. At least thats the b.s. they feed u when your working for them.


What about the other half of the union that are out of work??


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

I feel for them !!!! We've had this debate before and it won't get us any where.


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## theplumbinator

rjbphd said:


> What about the other half of the union that are out of work??


Its probably more than half. I feel that they put themselves out of business with their high prices and ridiculous rules and demands. They have strong armed their power on companies and their workers for years now its coming around to bite them in the ass. Its the karma they deserve. Union are great to work for when times are good but in bad times they drop you like a hot potato, without loosing a wink of sleep.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

theplumbinator said:


> Its probably more than half. I feel that they put themselves out of business with their high prices and ridiculous rules and demands. They have strong armed their power on companies and their workers for years now its coming around to bite them in the ass. Its the karma they deserve. Union are great to work for when times are good but in bad times they drop you like a hot potato, without loosing a wink of sleep.


Yep. And you know all the guys that run the unions arnt hurting at all. They live easy no matter what !!!!


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## theplumbinator

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Yep. And you know all the guys that run the unions arnt hurting at all. They live easy no matter what !!!!


You bet! Wether I work or not I still have to pay dues every month to them to retain my book. So do all the other members that have been out for two some three years. Plus the kickbacks they get from the companies they land big jobs for. Trust me when I say the guys running the union are doing just fine. They're not my friends... I use them for what I need they use me. Its different for me now because ive got my own company. If I do two jobs a year I need a union card for thats a lot. When i do I make it worth my wild. They don't like my price no skin off my ass. They call me when they sent 5 other guys before me that couldn't fix it. The union reps use me on their own houses if that says anything about my work. And I rape them every time I can. Ive probably said more than I should about it...


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## Scoot2300

*Comfort Zone*

Greeting all,
I am new to the forum and wanted to say hello. I saw your post about the leak and the various materials used in the repair. Occasionally I still get pulled into the field for a survey and love the puzzle it presents. I hope to be involved in more discussions.


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## rjbphd

Scoot2300 said:


> Greeting all,
> I am new to the forum and wanted to say hello. I saw your post about the leak and the various materials used in the repair. Occasionally I still get pulled into the field for a survey and love the puzzle it presents. I hope to be involved in more discussions.


Go over to the intro section and do a full intro about yourself.


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## plbgbiz

Scoot2300 said:


> Greeting all,
> I am new to the forum and wanted to say hello. I saw your post about the leak and the various materials used in the repair. Occasionally I still get pulled into the field for a survey and love the puzzle it presents. I hope to be involved in more discussions.


Thanks for not spamming the site. The members like an intro to get to know you. Suppliers are always welcome. We may have questions you could help us with about your product. 

Drop by the introductions area and let us know about you in a non-spammy way....

Thanks


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## plumbing ninja

Isolation vlvs for trap set I prefer to use the following for 1/2 to 2" screwed on 150psi sat steam 
SS or forged/Cast.Steel Class 800 Steel full port 2 or 3 port ball valve SS ball,carbon or glass filled PTFE seat & stem seals, SS stem & handles

Forged Steel Class 600/800 Globe Valve Outside Screw & yoke, bolted bonnet. half or full stellite trim
both types with heat no's traceable material & test certs

These are both fairly bullet proof!


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