# Attention All techs, the floor is yours



## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

I did not want to derail another thread, so here it is.

The Zone has 15,130 members +-.

I don't think I have ever seen an intro by a tech.

If you are a tech and prefer to be referred to as such, please explain.


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

PLUMB TIME said:


> I did not want to derail another thread, so here it is.
> 
> The Zone has 15,130 members +-.
> 
> ...


From this point forward, I want to be called a "plumbing technician".
Somebody once told me plumbers are butt-crack sporting, smelly, rude, arrogant, and disrespectful people. Therefore, instead of allowing what I do every day to define me, I will change my title!
I henceforth call myself a technician, which will instantly sanitize any plumber preconceptions...:thumbup:


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

I dont give a ** what you call me, just pay me.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

209 views and some "thanks".

In the Plumber/technician thread there are two techs. 

Would they be so kind as to explain?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

PLUMB TIME said:


> 209 views and some "thanks".
> 
> In the Plumber/technician thread there are two techs.
> 
> Would they be so kind as to explain?


 They are the spelling techs here!


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

C'mon guys. There is already a thread that is being used to explain why many take exception to the term "technician". No need to needle them in this thread. Let them have their say.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Not needling Biz, I just think that if a tech has such an emotional attachment to being called a tech, this is his/her sounding board.

Reading through the 100+ posts in the other thread is laborious and I really haven't read an answer.

Maybe I missed it, but has an actual "tech" actually responded?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

PLUMB TIME said:


> Not needling Biz, I just think that if a tech has such an emotional attachment to being called a tech, this is his/her sounding board.
> 
> Reading through the 100+ posts in the other thread is laborious and I really haven't read an answer.
> 
> Maybe I missed it, but has an actual "tech" actually responded?


I was just referring to a couple of the replies, not your OP. I have not seen one weigh in yet either.


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

I have two employees. Both very loyal and get paid very well for their skills. All of their official paper work has the term "sewer technician" but I also do not run a plumbing company, I operate a sewer cleaning company that is three generations strong. Have never and have no plans to hold a plumbing license so I can't comment on how I would feel being referred to as a tech if I did.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Thanks U1776.

Since they are not licensed Plumbers I can understand why tech would apply. 

I'm still looking for the Plumbers that want to be called techs. Thanks for the response. This isn't a witch hunt:no:


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

I think a lot of customers refer to any service guy as a tech. I wouldn't take it personally. Now if you hold a license and your boss refers to you as a tech that's a different story.


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## plumberpete247 (Sep 30, 2012)

I apprenticed for 7 years., Studied the profession, which is a professional career. , and became a Master Plumber..
I will be referred to as a Plumber....
Tech is a fancy word People want use to hide the stereotype of which we are perceived as. .. Use must act and work as a professional. . A word or title doesn't make you anything... (my rant)


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

plumberpete247 said:


> I apprenticed for 7 years., Studied the profession, which is a professional career. , and became a Master Plumber.. I will be referred to as a Plumber.... Tech is a fancy word People want use to hide the stereotype of which we are perceived as. .. Use must act and work as a professional. . A word or title doesn't make you anything... (my rant)


Where your intro?


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Leach713 said:


> Where your intro?


I see rjbphd has an apprentice:jester:


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Had no heat on FURANCE and had to chase OEM part for it.. replaced it... got it working... that make me a plumber or tech???


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## nicko450 (Sep 10, 2013)

I guess the term varies by area... In NYC I never heard anyone refer to a plumber or any trades person as a tech.. When I moved to albany ny we were called technicians.. Honestly I hated being called a tech I would much rather be called a plumber then a tech... But I'm back in NYC so I don't have to hear that word any more


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## ]3ones (Jun 9, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Had no heat on FURANCE and had to chase OEM part for it.. replaced it... got it working... that make me a plumber or tech???


Exactly. I don't even think this is a topic up for debate. Plumbers are plumbers they instal, service and maintain piping related to domestic water and drainage systems. When u replace a gas control valve on a water heater you've just acted as a tech. As for what u want to be called, I don't think anyone really gives a s**t


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

]3ones said:


> Exactly. I don't even think this is a topic up for debate. Plumbers are plumbers they instal, service and maintain piping related to domestic water and drainage systems. When u replace a gas control valve on a water heater you've just acted as a tech. As for what u want to be called, I don't think anyone really gives a s**t


I mess with gas all the time, and I'm still a plumber. Gas is covered in my license


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

]3ones said:


> Exactly. I don't even think this is a topic up for debate. Plumbers are plumbers they instal, service and maintain piping related to domestic water and drainage systems. When u replace a gas control valve on a water heater you've just acted as a tech. As for what u want to be called, I don't think anyone really gives a s**t


I could lay tile in someone's bathroom and still not be a tech. Doesn't change the fact I have a masters in my wallet


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## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

Don't forget that other parts of the world have varying terminology; in the UK and New Zealand I'll hear tradesmen referred to as 'heating engineers' or "_____ engineers"'. I don't much mind the ring of that. I also like to have a few synonyms on hand if only to reduce repetition in either the spoken or written word. It is however important to differentiate between a journeyman or apprentice and the generic non-qualified worker.


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## ]3ones (Jun 9, 2011)

Will said:


> I mess with gas all the time, and I'm still a plumber. Gas is covered in my license


 That's cool but up here gas is not plumbing and anyone can get a gas ticket if they pass a gas course specific test. Gas piping, oil piping even welding are complementary tickets to your C of Q. So anyone can acquire them even if they are tile guys lol. But the point I was trying to make is I believe a technician is some one who is repairing any kind of electronic or mechanical equipment. There is nothing derogatory about the term. I'd figure anyone can be called a tech if they hold any kind of ticket as long as their work is technical, but you're only a plumber if you can prove it with a C of Q that sayer plumber. As far as what people call me, it's simple, whatever you want as long as you pay me lol


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## LordOfThePipe (Jan 12, 2014)

A plumber is what I am and I'm proud if it I don't need any extra words in my title


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## exclamation (Mar 11, 2013)

stecar said:


> I dont give a ** what you call me, just pay me.


I really hate being called the repair man


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

exclamation said:


> I really hate being called the repair man


Way too often, the home owner will take a phone call while yiure there and tell the person on the other side, "Oh, I have the repair man here, I'll call you back." I cant stand that. I wont make it obvious but I hate it. They don't understand what it means...but they understand a little better when I give them the bill that I'm no repair man.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Call me what you want, just call me.

I have a shirt with my name on it so my name must be what it is. People still call me by the owners name. I doo not care I kind of like it that people think I am the owner of the company. When this happens I am doing things in the best interest of the customer and company. This in turn is in my best interest.

When your employees believe they are invested in your company how can you lose and what does it matter what you are called? 

First off =I am Richard Hilliard
second= I help people and make a difference in their lives
3rd =my trade is the Plumbing Industry
4th= I help people become better people
5th =I am licensed in my trade.
6th= what I know does not matter until later, during my visit with customers.
7th= customers will never remember your plumbing skills, they will remember how you made them feel.


do I continue?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> ...what does it matter what you are called?
> 
> First off =I am Richard Hilliard
> second= I help people and make a difference in their lives
> ...


1 = I am Mehmet Oz
2 = I help people and make a difference in their lives
3 = My trade is the Medical Industry
4 = I help people become better people
5 = I am licensed in my trade.
6 = What I know does not matter until later, during my visit with customers.
7 = Customers will never remember my medical skills, they will remember how I made them feel.

Those are seven very good reasons why you call him Dr. Oz and not Mr. Oz.

Richard, we know you are a humble man that does not need a title. But your accomplishments past, present, and future deserve recognition none the less. You are no less a Plumber than Oz is a doctor. You may choose to turn your back on that recognition and that is fine...for you. 

We (Plumbers) have a tough road to earn that recognition so it is not wrong to have the title and definitely not wrong to wear it proudly.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> 1 = I am Mehmet Oz
> 2 = I help people and make a difference in their lives
> 3 = My trade is the Medical Industry
> 4 = I help people become better people
> ...


John 

I appreciate the kind words. I have witnessed more people that are stronger, have accomplished more and have endured more than I ever will during the past several months. My accomplishments are fine however compared to the courage of other people to live or try to live normal lives is minimal to the bigger picture.


Question to number 3 how did it prevent the disease I have now and the many other diseases people have ? Sure it has helped prevent diseases in the past due to sanitation. How can it help prevent the deterioration of bones? Arthritis? Heart disease? Depression? Cancers? Sanitation is one way that it helps prevent some diseases that have in conjunction with medicines already developed to cure or rid the body of some diseases. I will never repeat that as factual when I discuss plumbing. I can state that we as a profession and like the medical profession have created opportunities to improve life and the quality of life.


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## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

exclamation said:


> I really hate being called the repair man


By adults sure, but its OK when little kids call me "the fixer man" or something equally cute. I could be Bob the Builder or Handy Manny to them and it would be OK by me. "I'm not Handy Manny, but I bump into him now and then"


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

To be clear, I am not so much concerned what the ignorant and uninformed public calls me. But within the trade to deny, put second place, diminish, or otherwise ignore the title of the accomplishment of becoming a licensed Plumber is in my opinion, unthinkable. 

Having that self respect and pride in what we are and what we do is the first and most important step to the rest of the general public having similar respect.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I see Richard's point...
Yea... I'm a plumber...
I always state that I am...
But would I engage in a prick waving contest over what a customer calls me?
Not in this lifetime...:no:
Call me whatever you want! Plumber, Tech, Service Tech, Repairman, I don't care...

Just hand me those Ben Franklins, Grants, Jacksons, Hamiltons, Lincolns, & Washingtons, when I present my bill at completion...:thumbup:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> To be clear, I am not so much concerned what the ignorant and uninformed public calls me. But within the trade to deny, put second place, diminish, or otherwise ignore the title of the accomplishment of becoming a licensed Plumber is in my opinion, unthinkable.
> 
> Having that self respect and pride in what we are and what we do is the first and most important step to the rest of the general public having similar respect.


If that is so, then you are not a "plumber."

You are a Master Plumber! Do not water down the title you have earned in your jurisdiction.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Redwood said:


> I see Richard's point...


I do as well. You can never just skim his posts. He is often looking through a very wide angle lens.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> I do as well. You can never just skim his posts. He is often looking through a very wide angle lens.


 
I like to provoke thought. I am sick and tired of being sick and tired of plumbers thinking they are just a plumber or just a master plumber. We are so much more and need to stop putting and placing labels that restrict us from being more than we are with each customer.

When we put people first amazing things happen and develop all by themselves.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> I like to provoke thought. I am sick and tired of being sick and tired of plumbers thinking they are just a plumber or just a master plumber. We are so much more and need to stop putting and placing labels that restrict us from being more than we are with each customer.
> 
> When we put people first amazing things happen and develop all by themselves.


I as much as anyone agree with the sentiment. 

But exchanging our namesake for a generic label? A label that applies to everything from a laptop repairman to an oil changer. It seems contrary to the goal of reaching beyond our roots.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> I as much as anyone agree with the sentiment.
> 
> But exchanging our namesake for a generic label? A label that applies to everything from a laptop repairman to an oil changer. It seems contrary to the goal of reaching beyond our roots.


Why do you feel that way?

The best heart surgeon is still a Doctor?
The best lawyer is still esquire.
The best cook is still called a chef


I am very proficient in sales I am way more than just a plumber. I can do new, remodel, service, commercial, water filtration, gas, roof drains,sewers. I used to be able to glass piping ,brazing, med, boilers sure it would come back in a short period of time no longer am an expert in those fields.

I could call myself a sales service plumber however I am called boss or manager and in some cases a hole by our plumbers. I am their task manager and will get on them when they do not perform. That is my job. I have called myself a technician in the past as well as a plumber as well as "The Owner"

I remember roughing in a home in Ohio when the owner of the home came in and started to give me a hard time. It did not matter to the home owner that I was a master plumber. They did not like the answers I gave them and told me, tomorrow they would be in the shop and talk with the owner. I said great I will let him know. I informed them that the owner is in until 9:00 AM and then he is on the job.

The next morning they walked into my office and asked to see " The Owner" I said hi what would you like to talk to me about that we did not cover yesterday? Being "The Owner" changed the discussion and direction.

The word only means something to you and perhaps other plumbers. At one time it meant more to me than it does now. How does that help us reach our potential or reaching higher?

I am coming from the stand point of all the plumbers I have met over the past 15 years that refuse to move higher, reach higher, or learn more and have not kept up with the trade. It is all those that believe it is up to others to get them materials to learn new products or pay for their ability to learn new stuff. It seems the majority of PLUMBERS are takers and refuse to give anything in order to get more out of their trade. You pay for my training( company) and I will work harder for you trashy plumbers that will revert back to their old ways in roughly 30-60 days. These are PLUMBERS that want the respect they think is due to him or her. These types are not worthy of the name technician either. I wish I could have a higher point of reference for many of the people in our trade and I am sure every shop has a few that are exactly what I have stated. Some owners got rid of all their employees and are 1 man shops because of this.

Sorry respect is earned and given before you receive respect. A title means nothing in the field of respect. Some people are ordering from a menu they should not be ordering from.

John the highest form of respect I can give you or anyone is to call you friend and you know that already. 

Ok my rant is over. thanks for the time.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Why do you feel that way?...


Many reasons, but in context this is at the top of my list.

Sales. And not of plumbing jobs but being able to sell the trade itself.

And to sell, you must have something to offer. Our trade is lacking in confidence, pride, image, and even an accurate identity. Without that the best and brightest that could bring not one company, but the whole trade to a higher level will never consider it as a career. NHMaster preaches mercilessly on the strength of our trade and bringing it to young people as an option. 

So what do we bring them? No confidence, no pride, bad image, and an inaccurate identity. If those are not corrected, then not even you can sell our trade to the masses. You rightly expect your Plumbers to have a close rate in homes at or near 100%. What is your close ratio at a job fair? What is your close ratio at the local high school on career day?

What good is your 100% close ratio with no one to do the work? Who is to follow your wisdom on selling plumbing projects to homeowners if no one buys into the trade of Plumbing? Who is to enroll in NH's class if plumbing is viewed by many of our own to be either a scam profession used to grab commissions from unsuspecting consumers? Or even worse, simply the landing spot for drunks, dropouts, and losers.

Not my words Richard, the words or our brethren. Licensed Plumbers.

So before a person is licensed as a Plumber,
Before they learn to run an excavator,
Before they learn pipe lining,
Before they can draw iso's,
Before they know whether or not to repair or replace,
And LONG before they learn professional salesmanship,

They must WANT to be a licensed Plumber, not a generic technician. 

My belief is that they will never want to be licensed Plumbers as long as Plumbers themselves are running and hiding from that identity. It is not a shameful profession and I know you already know that. But turning our namesake into a generic fix-it-guy term makes technicians and their proponents look sheepish. To me, technicians are not to be trusted in sales because they are already trying to mask who they are (or mask the fact that they are not who they say they are).

It is not ego Richard, it is pride. Although easily confused and sometimes combined, they are definitely two distinctly different things with different motives.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

I would agree Mr.Biz if the trade hadn't already damaged / lost the "Plumber" title. 

Plumber is as generic as kleenex and post-it notes.

The industry should have defined titles long ago. Helper, apprentice, journeyman, master. Outside the industry, very few know what a journeyman is, and though master sounds impressive, the public does not know how much time is put in to acquire that title. It doesn't help the cause when each state has different requirements. 

Look at National average for a plumber's wages ($43,000./yr), add in lack of respect, loose standards, and negative public perception (stereotype). Why would someone in high school choose to pursue that career path?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Why would someone in high school choose that career?

Without people guiding and informing kids of the opportunities, they won't.

Its not just us. All the skilled trades are suffering from a lack of interest. The average age of most in the construction, skilled trades is over 60 years old. You quote the average at 43,000 for plumbers which is probably fairly accurate and a tragedy. Its a tragedy brought about by the greed of manufacturers and corporations that have brought the mantra of "cheap, quick and easy" to every trade but unfortunately, more to us than others. WE bought into it hook line and sinker. How many threads here and elsewhere about crap products being defended by guys that should know better. I have a running fued going with a 40 year old plumber that insists that Pro-Press is the finest thing ever invented. He likes it because he can offer cheaper and faster; and lets not forget that like it or not everyone has been forced into PEX because we have to be "competitave" We spend a whole lot of time under bidding and under cutting the competition that we fail to see the total effect going down the road. We have PEX because millions of dollars passed hands from the manufactureres to the folks that write and accept the code. Its the lobbiests that have driven wages down. Home Depot and Lowes share in a big part of the responsibility also. Anyone that believes they are contractor friendly is a blind fool. They both have "contractor" check out aisles where maybe one in fifty is actually a contractor. Their "contractor" credit card carries the same rate and terms as their generic homeowner credit card and the prices on the products are the same, no discount and yet, some of you guys buy stuff there all the time rather than support your trade through your local supply house. Business, manufacturing, industry have proved many times over that if you give them an opening to screw you, they will. :thumbsup:

So, why plumb?

Its a skilled, licensed trade that offers growth and boundless opportunities
Its a trade that you can continually learn and improve at
Its steady work. Every home and business in the nation has plumbing
Its important work. Spend a month or so in India and you will understand

Extra: My students (3) competed last Friday at the NH Skills USA plumbing competition. For the 4th year in a row one of my kids won the gold medal and will be going to Kansas City for the nationals.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> You quote the average at 43,000 for plumbers which is probably fairly accurate and a tragedy.


I mis-typed the average. It is $49,140.00 (2012 Median pay)



> We spend a whole lot of time under bidding and under cutting the competition that we fail to see the total effect going down the road.


Any solutions?



> Home Depot and Lowes share in a big part of the responsibility also. Anyone that believes they are contractor friendly is a blind fool. They both have "contractor" check out aisles where maybe one in fifty is actually a contractor. Their "contractor" credit card carries the same rate and terms as their generic homeowner credit card and the prices on the products are the same, no discount and yet,


Lowes does offer a discount to contractors. I believe Home Depot does too, or at least they did.



> some of you guys buy stuff there all the time rather than support your trade through your local supply house.


We buy less than 5% of our materials from them, usually because they are carrying something that the supply house isn't. Moen Posi-temp cartridge priced at $60.00 through our local supplier. Lowes $40.00. Supplier blames it on Moen, unless they agree to be exclusive to Moen = no price breaks. :furious: 



> Business, manufacturing, industry have proved many times over that if you give them an opening to screw you, they will.


Isn't that what you call Capitalism? I wonder how many h.o.s feels screwed over by the contractor. 

Seems like there is a lot of blame, where is the solution?



> So, why plumb?
> 
> Its a skilled, licensed trade that offers growth and boundless opportunities


Unless you live in a state where the unlicensed are permitted to work under a Master.



> Its important work. Spend a month or so in India and you will understand


Important? Absolutely! However, the compensation is low considering the time you have to invest in the trade before you become licensed, and low considering the abuse the body takes to work in the trade. 

The term / title "Plumber" needs to be protected, and it should mean the same thing across the U.S. so that everyone knows a plumber on his own, unsupervised = 4 years of education in the field. 

As it stands today, anyone with a pipe wrench and a little bit of knowledge considers themselves a plumber. The sad reality, so does the general public.

Prior to getting in this industry, I had little respect for the 'plumber.' Why? IGNORANCE! I had no idea the amount of knowledge that a licensed plumber needed to know. How would I? Glue some pipes together, unclog drains, stop toilets from running, and fix drippy faucets. Big deal - how hard can it be?

Yeah, I was clueless, but then again, I think most of the general population is clueless too when it comes to the Professional Plumber!

My respect for plumbers grew as I became educated as to what it means to be a licensed Plumber. Some plumbers represent the trade very well, many don't. 

Masters should be setting strong professional standards for those coming up under them. If they were all along, the industry could have probably fixed itself.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

All I know is I wouldn't have became a plumber for a lousy 40k. 70 is base rate around here with many good guys in the 6 figures.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> All I know is I wouldn't have became a plumber for a lousy 40k. 70 is base rate around here with many good guys in the 6 figures.


That being the case, then that would mean other plumbers are making much less than $49,140.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Which is real sad..


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> Which is real sad..


Yep . . .


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Redwood said:


> I see Richard's point... Yea... I'm a plumber... I always state that I am... But would I engage in a prick waving contest over what a customer calls me? Not in this lifetime...:no: Call me whatever you want! Plumber, Tech, Service Tech, Repairman, I don't care... Just hand me those Ben Franklins, Grants, Jacksons, Hamiltons, Lincolns, & Washingtons, when I present my bill at completion...:thumbup:


I get at least 15 calls a week from people asking, "is this Mt Dunn Plumbing?" (Mount Dunn) like mountain.

When I started in 1990 I would correct them. A few years later. I stopped correcting them. Why?

I'm whoever you want to think I am as long as I get paid. 

Now when they ask I say, "Yes Ma'am, or Ye sir, how can we help you today.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

WE are getting off the track. Biz I would tend to agree however the trade itself has caused the issue of not bringing in new blood. It is not a reputation of being sleazy. A person can stock shelves for 14 dollars an hour at Publix (grocery store) why would they choose to work for a plumbing company digging ditches, chasing this or that fitting, or a tool for 12.00?

Why did our Industry allow many plumbing jobs to escape from our grasp? Such as fire, sprinklers, backflows install and testing, water filtration. The industry sat back and watched other industries take our jobs away from us. 

By not getting together to make a national code and license gives freedom to have a huge diversity that can be interpreted differently by each region. This means each are has different rules and regulations where nothing is standard and everything is generic.

Our industry like every other industry regulated by law does not pay attention to the laws already on the books. How and why would anyone take us serious? A person with a license calls the plumber without a license a scab. Many do not like their brother and will fight their brother in the industry for 50 bucks.

In Ohio I sat down to breakfast with 3 other plumbers, other plumber sin our area said we were in collusion with one another. Nope we just wanted to make our industry better not worse. To blame home centers is just that trying to play the blame game and no one wins who plays. There have always been home centers. In the 70’s and 80’s it was 84 lumber, Sears and Stambaugh’s and a few select hardware stores. This means our industry and its leaders must accept responsibility for the downfall and now quit blaming others and rebuild the torn down reputation and introduce new blood.

How do we introduce new blood? The first way is offer a different standard of living. Instead of a drunken existence where divorce and living hand to mouth is the norm we must promote family structure and time, being part of your community with involvement other than supporting the local bar. Increase and introduce faith in our work life. I am not saying God has to be in your life, I would prefer this however choose the right spirituality you need to have in your life. 

Everything I have mentioned above has nothing to do with the term of PLUMBER or Master Plumber It has everything to do with influencing and developing better people.


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

Just refer to me as The master of time,space,dimension, and maybe population control. But I really like how maintenance men have become "building engineers".


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> WE are getting off the track....


This thread has been off track since post #2. :laughing:





Richard Hilliard said:


> Biz I would tend to agree however the trade itself has caused the issue of not bringing in new blood....


Yes, the trade is to blame. No disagreement from me. But the following applies to us as a group just as well as it does for individuals:
_*
No one will respect you if you do not respect yourself. *_

Our trade is full of people with serious self esteem issues related to their career choice. A better standard of working and living will help but I still believe a foundation of pride in ourselves as "Plumbers" is critically needed. I have yet to hear anything that changes that belief.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> This thread has been off track since post #2. :laughing:




:yes:



> Our trade is full of people with serious self esteem issues related to their career choice. A better standard of working and living will help but I still believe a foundation of pride in ourselves as "Plumbers" is critically needed. I have yet to hear anything that changes that belief.


Well leave it to me to try. 

I think you have it backwards. I would state it this way "The trade attracts people with serious self-esteem issues." A bunch suffer from low self-esteem - the lowly apprentice learns very early on that abuse from the Master is considered acceptable. I know, you guys are just being guys - no harm right? If my teacher spat on me or hit me or threw things at me, how does that help my self-esteem? 

Do you think I respect that teacher? I don't quit dammit, I want to be a plumber. BUT, I may turn out to be one damn bitter plumber - ready to take it out on anyone who crosses my path.

A bunch suffer from extremely high self-esteem. Pounding on chest "I protect the health . . ., " "H.O.'s are just jealous because I make more than them," "I'm the most expensive in my area and I'm worth it."

Neither are considered healthy self-esteem. :no: I think Richard has a valid point, and if we were talking about something other than plumbers, more would see his point. IMO, it helps to step back and not personalize it. 



> _*
> No one will respect you if you do not respect yourself. *_


Every person on here represents the industry in some way, shape, or form. The only person we can change is ourselves. We ought to start there. Model the behavior you want to see in others.

I have two quotes to add Mr.Biz:

*No one will respect you, if you do not treat others with respect.*

*It is better to be respected than feared.*


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Thanks for reminding me. I haven't spat upon my apprentice in quite a while now :laughing:.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

John I still fail to see how calling yourself/ me a Plumber, or Master Plumber , or Technician influences the level of respect I have for myself or yourself. How much or little each individual respects themselves is determined by how they treat themselves not by a label they place upon themselves.

I personally know a couple of Master Plumbers from Ohio that committed suicide. 1 of those idiots could have taken me with him. He used acetylene to test gas lines in a residential house with a lighter. 

Your accomplishments will determine the level of respect you have for yourself not a label.

I thought I was all that when I got my drivers license. Then I thought I was more than that when I became 21. When I married at 24 I was more than all that. When I received my masters license I was bigger than all that but still lower in most people's eyes. When my children were born my life changed instantly and nothing else matter as much as they did and do.
Kids graduating from school, graduating from college. Daughter getting married. Granddaughter being Born. Having my granddaughter live 2 doors down. Swimming and hanging out with Harper Ann my granddaughter. My wife and my kids receiving their master degrees. My daughter getting married. Us being married since 1981.

Can you tell me what you believe are my greatest accomplishments are located? Would you care to guess what gives me the most pleasure and what I believe is more important? Would you say I am dis-respectful about myself?

ABSOLUTELY NOT---------------- I od not see anywhere where there is anything but a high regard and level of respect for the thins that I have accomplished during my lifetime.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Thanks for reminding me. I haven't spat upon my apprentice in quite a while now :laughing:.


I bet it picks up some good velocity when your spitting from the top floor of your ivory tower. Hahaha.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

You're over thinking it Richard. Pulling major life experiences encompassing health and family into the discussion is detracting from the point. 

Is the earning of a license and a living as significant as time well spent with a granddaughter. Of course not. That is a ludicrous comparison. I never said or even hinted that becoming a Plumber was the single most important moment in anyone's life. Let's keep it in perspective.

But just because becoming a Plumber is not at the top of life's accomplishments, doesn't mean it is unimportant. I am a father and grandfather as well. But that is not the issue. My accomplishments with Son-of-Biz and his family are important and far above anything I do in my career.

But still, the career matters. The designation of Plumber matters.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> :yes: Well leave it to me to try. I think you have it backwards. I would state it this way "The trade attracts people with serious self-esteem issues." A bunch suffer from low self-esteem - the lowly apprentice learns very early on that abuse from the Master is considered acceptable. I know, you guys are just being guys - no harm right? If my teacher spat on me or hit me or threw things at me, how does that help my self-esteem? Do you think I respect that teacher? I don't quit dammit, I want to be a plumber. BUT, I may turn out to be one damn bitter plumber - ready to take it out on anyone who crosses my path. A bunch suffer from extremely high self-esteem. Pounding on chest "I protect the health . . ., " "H.O.'s are just jealous because I make more than them," "I'm the most expensive in my area and I'm worth it." Neither are considered healthy self-esteem. :no: I think Richard has a valid point, and if we were talking about something other than plumbers, more would see his point. IMO, it helps to step back and not personalize it. Every person on here represents the industry in some way, shape, or form. The only person we can change is ourselves. We ought to start there. Model the behavior you want to see in others. I have two quotes to add Mr.Biz: No one will respect you, if you do not treat others with respect. It is better to be respected than feared.


And then we have the owners who view plumbers as just cogs in a machine. Owners that don't realize the importance of having a plumbing license or the skill required to obtain one.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> And then we have the owners who view plumbers as just cogs in a machine. Owners that don't realize the importance of having a plumbing license or the skill required to obtain one.


Of course there are those type owners. And then there are owners like myself who promote teamwork, reward effort, and offer encouragement when it is needed. One who understands that every human being is important, that everyone deserves to be treated with respect. One that understands that more is accomplished when we look for common ground, rather than nitpick exceptions.

As for owners that don't realize the importance of having a plumbing license, or the skill required to obtain one - I don't know any business owners that fall into that category.

If you were insinuating that I was one of those owners you described above, you are sadly mistaken.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Are we still talking about technicians? I only ask because according o the poll there's only two here anyway so dilligaf :thumbsup:


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> You're over thinking it Richard. Pulling major life experiences encompassing health and family into the discussion is detracting from the point.
> 
> Is the earning of a license and a living as significant as time well spent with a granddaughter. Of course not. That is a ludicrous comparison. I never said or even hinted that becoming a Plumber was the single most important moment in anyone's life. Let's keep it in perspective.
> 
> ...


 
No not over thinking it Biz. Remember yall think it is special ,not me, other things are way more important in life period. These are things that should drive you to respect yourself more.

One final thought if it is such a major thing to be called a Master Plumber that delivers respect why do so many run from their words by having pseudo names via the internet? Obviously many are afraid to tie their names to their words that bring claim and fame to their title of Master Plumber or Plumber.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> ...other things are way more important in life period. These are things that should drive you to respect yourself more....


No one is disputing this but the "more important" things are not the topic at hand. After escaping the cancer demon, I had a new respect for priorities of life. That does not mean the lesser priorities cannot be discussed and improved upon. Again, there is no hint in anyone's comments that we should dash all that is Holy for the sake of being called Plumbers.



Richard Hilliard said:


> ...if it is such a major thing to be called a Master Plumber that delivers respect why do so many run from their words by having pseudo names via the internet? Obviously many are afraid to tie their names to their words that bring claim and fame to their title of Master Plumber or Plumber.


No, your answer is not the obvious one. There are three main reasons why people do not use their real name on the interwebz. 

1. Their anonymity empowers them with freeness of speech with no repercussions.

2. Their anonymity empowers them with protection from malicious persons that would do them harm. 

3. Their anonymity empowers them to do harm to others with no repercussions.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Richard Hilliard said:


> No not over thinking it Biz. Remember yall think it is special ,not me, other things are way more important in life period. These are things that should drive you to respect yourself more.
> 
> One final thought if it is such a major thing to be called a Master Plumber that delivers respect why do so many run from their words by having pseudo names via the internet? Obviously many are afraid to tie their names to their words that bring claim and fame to their title of Master Plumber or Plumber.


Richard, I don't put my name anywhere because this environment is full of whack jobs.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Richard, I don't put my name anywhere because this environment is full of whack jobs.


Same here. A few of you do know my real name, phone #, address ect. Richard being one. It's never a good idea to post any real information on the Internet, especially a web forum as you cannot control how that info is used.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Those are just excuses men and women. I can pull anything information with an IP address. You are not hiding though you think you are.

John you're telling me due to me disagreeing with you I am over thinking it. Again NO I am not ,you're making a license more important. It has been stated several times that having the licensee has increased self respect. NO IT HAS NOT. Your accomplishment is what is driving the self respect not the License in itself.

Your kids should drive your self respect higher than the license. What you stand for should drive your self respect higher than the license any way you try to add weight it does not. It is in the mind not factual. Sorry guys.

Think what you want and believe what you ant this is an opinion based question and really doe snot have a wrong or right answer it is how you feel.

RW question ;how has your concept of me changed in the past 2 years? Is it the license that changed your view and respect?

Guys I would not think much of you if your self value was due in fact to a license.

Guess this is a agree to disagree. Please do not try to tell me I am wrong when this is strictly an opinion based question and is not a fact based question.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Richard - I understand exactly what you are trying to convey. Your self-esteem and self-respect should not come from a piece of paper; however, it is a known fact that some people will base their own worth on the 'paper.'

No different than someone basing their self-worth on their job title, position, how much money they make, their looks etc. 

It's the reason bankers committed suicide when they lost their jobs, it's why investors committed suicide when they lost their fortune, it's why some women have a hard time with growing older. 

Self-esteem and self-respect should be based on who you are as a person, not on what you do, or other factors determined by society. 

Plumbing is something one does, it's not who you are. Plumber is a title to let others know what you do and/or have accomplished. 

Surely anyone who has earned that title should feel proud of their accomplishment. If they stopped issuing licenses and no jurisdiction recognized licensing, would that make you less of a plumber? Would your self-esteem suffer? 

I surely hope you would answer no to the two questions above. The only thing that changed is the paper. You still have your skill set and your self-esteem should be intact. 

Basing self-respect on others view of you is a very slippery slope.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> ...John you're telling me due to me disagreeing with you I am over thinking it....


No. I am telling you you are over thinking it because you are trying to make an irrelevant comparison between our topic of career/trade respect to a vastly different topic of respect earned from family accomplishments.



Richard Hilliard said:


> ...Guess this is a agree to disagree...


Agreed.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Richard, I am not my license but my license is a part of who I am and reflects the effort and experience that I put into it. It is neither more nor less important than all the things that make me who I am and what I stand for. I can't take away any of those things either good or bad and still be me. To quote a famous sailor " I am what I am and that's all's that I am "

Where's the chicken ? :laughing:


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Sorry I don't get this argument. It's almost like comparing a nurse to a doctor with hospital privileges. We do use papers to define who we are. It is not the entire sum of who we are but to say it is not a measurement of our personal accomplishments is just wrong. It is what separates a master from and unlicensed drain cleaner or a first year apprentice.

PC, the more I read your posts the more it seems to me you have a genuine disdain for plumbers. You talked about how plumbers are moving away the title plumber in lieu of the title technician, out of shame (paraphrasing). You talk about high and low esteem like it is an affliction that haunts the plumbing trade. I suggest it no more exist in the plumbing trade in significant numbers than it does in any other profession.

Unless the plumbers in your limited exposure are different tham all the other plumbers in the industry, I suggest they are the same as the rest of us. I have suggested some reading for you in the past. I really think it would help for you.

*"The unsung hero of human history was, of course, the Brain of Drains, the Hub of Tubs, the Power of Showers, the Brewer of Sewers...the humble plumber." *

W. Hodding Carter

Mark


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

I graduated high school in 1992. At that point, I began my college journey. I lost quite a bit of time due to a car accident, and then got married. I worked full time and slowly plodded along. In 2005, I walked that line and received a piece of paper. Was it just a piece of paper?? Hell no!! That piece of paper symbolized a journey full of struggle and sacrifice. I could proudly declare to the world that I AM A COLLEGE GRADUATE!! It is not who I am in and of itself, but that journey to get is a part of who I am. I am a college graduate, and I am a plumber. They both mean something to me.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> PC, the more I read your posts the more it seems to me you have a genuine disdain for plumbers.


Nope. My first post in this thread #31 is below:

"If that is so, then you are not a "plumber."

You are a Master Plumber! Do not water down the title you have earned in your jurisdiction."

Post #39

Important? Absolutely! However, the compensation is low considering the time you have to invest in the trade before you become licensed, and low considering the abuse the body takes to work in the trade. 

The term / title "Plumber" needs to be protected, and it should mean the same thing across the U.S. so that everyone knows a plumber on his own, unsupervised = 4 years of education in the field. 

As it stands today, anyone with a pipe wrench and a little bit of knowledge considers themselves a plumber. The sad reality, so does the general public.

Prior to getting in this industry, I had little respect for the 'plumber.' Why? IGNORANCE! I had no idea the amount of knowledge that a licensed plumber needed to know. How would I? Glue some pipes together, unclog drains, stop toilets from running, and fix drippy faucets. Big deal - how hard can it be?

Yeah, I was clueless, but then again, I think most of the general population is clueless too when it comes to the Professional Plumber!

*My respect for plumbers grew* as I became educated as to what it means to be a licensed Plumber. Some plumbers represent the trade very well, many don't. 



> You talked about how plumbers are moving away the title plumber in lieu of the title technician, out of shame (paraphrasing).


There are four reasons that I can think of: 
1. Some Franchises - Adopted the term Technician to disguise the fact that they did not have Licensed Plumbers, 
2. Some Affinity / Sales Groups - Adopted the term Technician to get away from the negative stereo-type of plumbers. (Butt crack), 
3. Some service plumbers like the term Technician over Plumber and,
4. Antiquated titles across the board changed to make people feel better about themselves. Garbage man became Sanitation Worker. Blame the politically correct wing for watering down terms it deemed unsatisfactory. 



> You talk about high and low esteem like it is an affliction that haunts the plumbing trade.


Master Plumber Mr. Biz wrote "Our trade is full of people with *serious self esteem issues related to their career choice*."

I was responding to the quote above.



> I suggest it no more exist in the plumbing trade in significant numbers than it does in any other profession.


My experience is that it is more prevalent with plumbers. I didn't see it when I worked with electricians, nor did I see it with the G.C.'s, nor did I see it with carpenters.



> Unless the plumbers in your limited exposure are different than all the other plumbers in the industry, I suggest they are the same as the rest of us.


I don't suggest they are different than the rest of you. Is PZ representative of the industry?

I have had the pleasure of knowing many Master Plumbers over the years. Plumbing is what they do . . . they don't live and breathe it though. :no: When they leave work, they leave the title behind too! They know the importance of their job, and they do it well. They are a humble group of men and they also have perspective.

I also have had the unfortunate experience to know / have known many Master Plumbers that I wouldn't give you 2 cents for. They were crass, unprofessional, and an embarrassment to the trade in general.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Phat Cat said:


> Nope. My first post in this thread #31 is below:
> 
> "If that is so, then you are not a "plumber."
> 
> ...


That is very sad for you and may explain where you are coming from. I have not had the same experience.

Mark


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I have known people from all walks of life like that. We are plumbers, not the arbiters of class and morality.

I guess what this all comes down too is that if you are not a licensed plumber, you have no point of reference.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I have known people from all walks of life like that. We are plumbers, not the arbiters of class and morality.
> 
> I guess what this all comes down too is that if you are not a licensed plumber, you have no point of reference.


Just like in society at large, we can be many things including an arbiter. As a matter of fact, I do a lot of that now. Over the last 40-years, I have met thousands of plumbers with all different levels of talent. I don't know if I could continue doing this work if I didn't give you 2 cents for them. Most of them are genuinely good people. I have had lots of plumbingh memories over the years and they have been mostly positive.

Mark


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I have known people from all walks of life like that. We are plumbers, not the arbiters of class and morality.
> 
> I guess what this all comes down too is that if you are not a licensed plumber, you have no point of reference.


First plumbing shop I worked for, third generation plumbing company:

Service Dept. - Running 3 trucks
Plumber 1 - (27 ish years old) Pretty boy, he would have made a great "Tech." He was licensed, had confidence.

Plumber 2 - (35 ish years old) Licensed plumber. No confidence. Would call into the office for service manager, and I would end up directing him what to do. Couldn't make the simplist judgement calls.

Service Manager / Plumber 3 - (mid forties) Master Plumber. He was an arrogant pig. Pounded on his own chest, and laughed loudly at his own jokes. Would ask if I was "on the rag" or if "I got laid" over the weekend.

Commercial Dept. - Approximately 10 plumbers.
Project Manager - (Owner's son 40 ish) Master Plumber. Polite and respectful.

Estimator - (Mid 30's) Master Plumber. Polite and respectful.

Field Workers - Licensed. However, they were similar to what Plumber described . . . the H.S. drop outs, missing teeth, definitely could not put them into residential service.

Master Mark - Has gone on the record saying how long he has been in business, and chose NOT to have employees because most were NOT worth having.


Brother-in-Law - Owns his own plumbing company. After hiring help, discouraged with 'bad habits' of licensed plumbers. He decided to groom his own. Stayed in a niche market because he knew finding good help would always be a challenge.

Largest Plumbing Operator in our city, Master Plumber (mid 50's)- Called for a reference for one of his previous employees. Said he would be a good choice to hire. We had a conversation about finding good plumbers and his words "All my years in plumbing, I can count on one hand those that were truly worth having." He also owned two plumbing businesses in two different states.

Me - I have interviewed too many plumbers to count over the years, from different states, and have found the 'great licensed plumber' to be the exception, not the rule. I would venture 1 in 25 fits the description 'great licensed plumber.'

Richard Hilliard - Has written about plumber's attitude problems. He is a Master Plumber with experience in two states as well.

Lead Ingot, Mr.Biz - Both have had a hard time finding 'great licensed plumbers.' 

There are many others on PZ who will attest to the fact that it is very hard to find 'great licensed plumbers.' The four mentioned above popped into my head immediately.

Have I worked with thousands? :no: Suggesting I have no point of reference? Whatever.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Phat Cat said:


> First plumbing shop I worked for, third generation plumbing company:
> 
> Service Dept. - Running 3 trucks
> Plumber 1 - (27 ish years old) Pretty boy, he would have made a great "Tech." He was licensed, had confidence.
> ...


Plumber #3 sounds like my kinda guy!! Haha. So are you on the rag, PC?? Just kidding, just kidding. I had to say it. That is pretty obnoxious, though. That dude needed a reality check. 

You gotta have diplomacy in an office and respect for ALL of the employees. Too many plumbers get caught up in the machismo mentality at a plumbing company and seem to forget that women who work at a plumbing company don't really wanna hear plumber talk. The ladies who I've worked with over the years have had pretty thick skin but I've never forgotten that they put up with a lot and are ladies. I don't need to make it harder for them. I try to not be so guy-ish around them.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

BDS - I do have a sense of humor and I don't mind plumbers talking freely around me. I have come into their world, not the other way around. I forgot to mention, he openly bragged about going through women's underwear drawers when the customer wasn't home. 

To this day, I don't allow workers of any kind in my home.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Phat Cat said:


> BDS - I do have a sense of humor and I don't mind plumbers talking freely around me. I have come into their world, not the other way around. I forgot to mention, he openly bragged about going through women's underwear drawers when the customer wasn't home.
> 
> To this day, I don't allow workers of any kind in my home.


There is a right way and an inappropriate way to talk "freely" was my main point. 

As far as you not letting workers in your own home, you are assuming we're all potential creeps given the opportunity? Hmmmm....maybe so....maybe so. But you're also assuming a worker would WANT to rummage thru your underwear drawer. 

In all seriousness, I don't like that you paint us all with the same brush due to the actions of a few. There are plenty of women who are super high maintenance and look for ways to manipulate situations to their benefit by use of their sexuality and looks. I don't assume all women are like that due to some being like that. You gotta give people a chance to screw up. 

I wouldn't let workers work while I'm not at home unless I personally know them but that's different. I don't think its a good idea to tempt anyone. A lock is only there to keep an honest man honest. Anyone is susceptible to misdeeds given the right situation.


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

Phat Cat said:


> :yes:
> 
> 
> I would state it this way "The trade attracts people with serious self-esteem issues."




This is the most arrogant, unfounded and ridiculous statement I have read on this site to date.

I am a Plumber and proud to say so. I am a well balanced family man, a productive member of society, and an outspoken proponent of the trade. I don't know any of the people of which you speak - or claim to know or have met, or any of the fables that you continue to relate on this site. I can however tell you with certainty that you do not speak of the Plumbers I know - and I know many.

Most of your posts hide your base opinions of Plumbers fairly well with subtle insults and backhanded comments that could be dismissed by claiming the reader misunderstands your intent but in this case there is no mistaking your comments.

I have no knowledge of who has done you wrong in the past or from where your obvious animosity for the trade has developed but madame, I submit it is you who needs to look at herself. 

I will not sit idle while someone slanders my trade - from within or without.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Phat Cat said:


> First plumbing shop I worked for, third generation plumbing company:
> 
> Service Dept. - Running 3 trucks
> Plumber 1 - (27 ish years old) Pretty boy, he would have made a great "Tech." He was licensed, had confidence.
> ...


It's almost like we work in two different industries. You apparently work in a industry full of people embarrassed to be called plumbers who are not worth hiring, are arrogant H.S. drop outs with missing teeth who definitely could not put into residential service. I now better understand your disdain towards plumbers.

I happen to work in an industry full of professionals who are proud to be called plumbers. While not all of them are perfect, the majority of them are hard workers who care about the "health of the nation". I guess at the end of the day it is all about perception.

Mark


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

I would love to be a fly on the wall to hear how a spouse, friend or loved one refers to the Plumber. That to me would be the most telling.
I know my wife PROUDLY refers to me as a Plumber/Master Plumber and not a plumbing tech,tech, etc.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

MarkToo said:


> This is the most arrogant, unfounded and ridiculous statement I have read on this site to date.


Again, I was not the one to suggest plumbers suffer low self-esteem due to their career choice. I am suggesting those with low self-esteem had it prior to entering the field.



> I am a Plumber and proud to say so. I am a well balanced family man, a productive member of society, and an outspoken proponent of the trade.


As I have stated numerous times, I know many such as yourself. :thumbup: I have also stated that plumbers have a right to be proud, and the professional plumber has my respect. :yes:



> I don't know any of the people of which you speak - or claim to know or have met, or any of the fables that you continue to relate on this site. I can however tell you with certainty that you do not speak of the Plumbers I know - and I know many.


Master Mark certainly knows of the "other" sort, as does Richard Hilliard, as does Plumber to name a few.



> Most of your posts hide your base opinions of Plumbers fairly well with subtle insults and backhanded comments that could be dismissed by claiming the reader misunderstands your intent but in this case there is no mistaking your comments.


No one knows my intent, unless they know my background and experience with plumbers. 



> I have no knowledge of who has done you wrong in the past or from where your obvious animosity for the trade has developed but madame, I submit it is you who needs to look at herself.


I do not have animosity for the trade - I do have animosity for those who degrade their trade by their actions, because it reflects on all of us who earn their living in the industry. I have a long history of supporting those in the trade. 

Please don't misunderstand, I don't paint all plumbers with a broad brush, but there is a segment that do not embody professionalism, nor respect for their brothers in the trade.

When I refer to the ones who are not honoring their trade, I would assume no one would attack, because they should know that I am NOT referring to them.

FWIW - If I didn't care about the trade, I wouldn't bother to point out where the trade can be improved.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> It's almost like we work in two different industries. You apparently work in a industry full of people embarrassed to be called plumbers who are not worth hiring, are arrogant H.S. drop outs with missing teeth who definitely could not put into residential service. I now better understand your disdain towards plumbers.
> 
> I happen to work in an industry full of professionals who are proud to be called plumbers. While not all of them are perfect, the majority of them are hard workers who care about the "health of the nation". I guess at the end of the day it is all about perception.
> 
> Mark


As I pointed out, other PZ members have similar experiences to mine. One only has to read the trade publications to see that my experiences are not isolated.

Disdain toward plumbers? :no: Your words, not mine! I have disdain toward those who feel ashamed to be a plumber - they should switch careers. I have disdain toward those that think others are not worthy to be treated with respect. I have been consistent regarding which ones don't have my respect, and frankly, they should not have your respect either.

Most people don't consider 'arrogance' an attractive character trait. Apparently some plumbers do. There is a thread on PZ somewhere - Are all plumbers a$$holes / arrogant, or something to that effect. I don't feel like searching for it. But I do recall more than a handful proclaiming pride in being arrogant a$$holes.

Their words, not mine!


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> There is a right way and an inappropriate way to talk "freely" was my main point.
> 
> As far as you not letting workers in your own home, you are assuming we're all potential creeps given the opportunity? Hmmmm....maybe so....maybe so. But you're also assuming a worker would WANT to rummage thru your underwear drawer.


In all fairness, his behavior creeped me out. I don't assume everyone is a creep, but I also recognize the creepers don't come with labels. I will freely admit I can be rigid once I have adopted a belief. Get me once shame on you, get me twice shame on me. If I can avoid the get me once - I do.

I always lock my car doors. Do I think everyone is a thief? No, but it's not a chance that I want to take.

Same with the creeper. I can make arrangements to be home, and it is what I am comfortable with. His behavior astounded me - I grew up in an environment of trust. The idea of someone violating someones privacy and trust was truly foreign to me. In my world at that time, I thought everyone shared certain values.



> I don't like that you paint us all with the same brush due to the actions of a few.


Not all. :no: 



> There are plenty of women who are super high maintenance and look for ways to manipulate situations to their benefit by use of their sexuality and looks. I don't assume all women are like that due to some being like that. You gotta give people a chance to screw up.


I agree 100%! :thumbup: However, if I am aware of the potential and ignore it, I tend to kick myself twice as hard because there were red flags that I ignored. I am very hard on myself, which is why I work diligently to not 'screw' up in the first place. I like to cover all bases when I can. 

It would be much easier to live as you suggest, but my inner voice can be a real condemning biotch sometimes. Best to shut her up and not give her the opportunity. It's a defense mechanism that operates on an unconscious level, but something that should be worked on.

I hope the above made sense to you. It's my personal 'issue' to work on.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

I agree that red flags have to be noticed.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

In the past I've worked for slime ball employers that didn't give a rat's ass about customers , employees or doing the job right. I guess that is just the norm in our industry? or am I making an assumption. If you are having problems hiring good employees maybe you need to look at why you are attracting those types in the first place and learn how to weed them out.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Phat Cat said:


> As I pointed out, other PZ members have similar experiences to mine. One only has to read the trade publications to see that my experiences are not isolated.
> 
> Disdain toward plumbers? :no: Your words, not mine! I have disdain toward those who feel ashamed to be a plumber - they should switch careers. I have disdain toward those that think others are not worthy to be treated with respect. I have been consistent regarding which ones don't have my respect, and frankly, they should not have your respect either.
> 
> ...


I would love to read your trade publication which supports yours and/or Master Marks, Biz, Richard and Plumber's position that our industry is full of people embarrassed to be called plumbers who are not worth hiring, are arrogant, H.S. drop outs with missing teeth who definitely could not put into residential service. We did a Poll which should only 3 of 42 preferred to be called technician instead of plumber.

I did use the word disdain as that is the best word to describe what you have said is yours and other members view of plumbers. I have disdain for those who feel like they have to badmouth plumbers while painting with such a broad brush. 

About 5-years ago I was interviewed for a national article regarding the difficulties in finding people for the trades. My reply included the fact that kids are not expose to industrial arts at school anymore. Many here know Jonesy or NHmaster and the programs they teach but they are few and far between. It seems we all would be better off supporting the trade rather than finding fault in it.

Mark


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> First plumbing shop I worked for, third generation plumbing company: Service Dept. - Running 3 trucks Plumber 1 - (27 ish years old) Pretty boy, he would have made a great "Tech." He was licensed, had confidence. Plumber 2 - (35 ish years old) Licensed plumber. No confidence. Would call into the office for service manager, and I would end up directing him what to do. Couldn't make the simplist judgement calls. Service Manager / Plumber 3 - (mid forties) Master Plumber. He was an arrogant pig. Pounded on his own chest, and laughed loudly at his own jokes. Would ask if I was "on the rag" or if "I got laid" over the weekend. Commercial Dept. - Approximately 10 plumbers. Project Manager - (Owner's son 40 ish) Master Plumber. Polite and respectful. Estimator - (Mid 30's) Master Plumber. Polite and respectful. Field Workers - Licensed. However, they were similar to what Plumber described . . . the H.S. drop outs, missing teeth, definitely could not put them into residential service. Master Mark - Has gone on the record saying how long he has been in business, and chose NOT to have employees because most were NOT worth having. Brother-in-Law - Owns his own plumbing company. After hiring help, discouraged with 'bad habits' of licensed plumbers. He decided to groom his own. Stayed in a niche market because he knew finding good help would always be a challenge. Largest Plumbing Operator in our city, Master Plumber (mid 50's)- Called for a reference for one of his previous employees. Said he would be a good choice to hire. We had a conversation about finding good plumbers and his words "All my years in plumbing, I can count on one hand those that were truly worth having." He also owned two plumbing businesses in two different states. Me - I have interviewed too many plumbers to count over the years, from different states, and have found the 'great licensed plumber' to be the exception, not the rule. I would venture 1 in 25 fits the description 'great licensed plumber.' Richard Hilliard - Has written about plumber's attitude problems. He is a Master Plumber with experience in two states as well. Lead Ingot, Mr.Biz - Both have had a hard time finding 'great licensed plumbers.' There are many others on PZ who will attest to the fact that it is very hard to find 'great licensed plumbers.' The four mentioned above popped into my head immediately. Have I worked with thousands? :no: Suggesting I have no point of reference? Whatever.


In your experience, most of the plumbers you've interacted with are scumbags. Why are you here then? If the "field workers" are missing teeth, and HS dropouts, why choose to spend your time with us? Your contempt for this trade and the people in it shines through crystal clear in this thread. I don't know why you decide to spend your time one a website populated by either arrogant, or otherwise socially dysfunctional people. Let alone moderate it. Perhaps you should find a site where the populous is more fitting in with your moral standard...


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Operative word "SOME."

Convenient how you keep leaving that.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> Operative word "SOME." Convenient how you keep leaving that.


From your little diatribe it sure seems like most. Even if it is some, why be here? What is your reasoning behind integrating yourself in a community where a certain percentage of members are what you'd consider to be degenerates? I don't think there are any more losers than there are in other professions. And I certainly wouldn't pigeon hole someone just because of their career choice. Obviously you think " this trade attracts people with low self esteem". Why are you here?


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

The majority of members represent the trade well.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Give her a break RW. She's an owner, not a plumber. She will never understand.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> The majority of members represent the trade well.


 According to your post about your plumbing experience, the best I can tell you referenced 13 plumbers. Of those 13, you said something polite about 2 of them. That leaves 10 that you said something negative about, also known as 77%. So according to your post 77% of the plumbers you've had contact with are scum. Again, why are you here?


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Why isn't PC a politician?


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Phat Cat said:


> The majority of members represent the trade well.


You say majority, what is the value you speak of?

Who does not represent the trade well, you must have some singled out on here, who is it on here you speak of?


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

I even know a few perfect plumbers . . . come to think of it, they have all posted in this thread. :laughing:


COMIC RELIEF: - - - - - >
http://plumberdate.com/


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Who does not represent the trade well on here?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

This thread just gets uglier and uglier every time I look at it...:laughing:

Let me check the bottom of my shoes...


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Redwood said:


> This thread just gets uglier and uglier every time I look at it...:laughing:
> 
> Let me check the bottom of my shoes...


Admit it, your ears were burning at the mention of perfect. 

JK

Shoes? - I have thigh high boots it's getting so deep.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Your avoiding my question.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Ron said:


> Your avoiding my question.


Mine too.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> Admit it, your ears were burning at the mention of perfect.  JK Shoes? - I have thigh high boots it's getting so deep.


 All I asked was a simple question. It should be a simple response. If 77% of the plumbers you've dealt with personally are in your opinions losers, why are you here.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> All I asked was a simple question. It should be a simple response. If 77% of the plumbers you've dealt with personally are in your opinions losers, why are you here.


I didn't see a question mark. Furthermore, do you really think I have only known 13 plumbers in the industry? The 77% number is a gross exaggeration.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Just as I thought, you should have never said what you did, you do not know any of us, you have no right making a false accusation.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> I didn't see a question mark. Furthermore, do you really think I have only known 13 plumbers in the industry? The 77% number is a gross exaggeration.


There was quite a few question marks. Besides that, the 77% was taken directly from your post. The only one you've provided hard numbers for. You provided the example, I just calculated the percentages. Obviously that's was how you wanted to present your opinion, or you wouldn't have said so.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

You seen the question mark now, so why still no answer to my question?


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> In your experience, most of the plumbers you've interacted with are scumbags. Why are you here then? If the "field workers" are missing teeth, and HS dropouts, why choose to spend your time with us? Your contempt for this trade and the people in it shines through crystal clear in this thread. I don't know why you decide to spend your time one a website populated by either arrogant, or otherwise socially dysfunctional people. Let alone moderate it. Perhaps you should find a site where the populous is more fitting in with your moral standard...





RW Plumbing said:


> From your little diatribe it sure seems like most. Even if it is some, why be here? What is your reasoning behind integrating yourself in a community where a certain percentage of members are what you'd consider to be degenerates? I don't think there are any more losers than there are in other professions. And I certainly wouldn't pigeon hole someone just because of their career choice. Obviously you think " this trade attracts people with low self esteem". Why are you here?





RW Plumbing said:


> According to your post about your plumbing experience, the best I can tell you referenced 13 plumbers. Of those 13, you said something polite about 2 of them. That leaves 10 that you said something negative about, also known as 77%. So according to your post 77% of the plumbers you've had contact with are scum. Again, why are you here?


 On these posts Ive quoted, I counted me asking you at least 5 separate times the same question. If you think so poorly of plumbers why are you here? I got the number 5 by counting the number of question marks I had. So either I cannot count, as I'm just a scumbag plumber, or you need a pair of reading glasses.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> There was quite a few question marks. Besides that, the 77% was taken directly from your post. The only one you've provided hard numbers for. You provided the example, I just calculated the percentages. Obviously that's was how you wanted to present your opinion, or you wouldn't have said so.


That was my first exposure to PLUMBERS, and isolated to that one shop at that point in time. It was in the late 80's, and I know for a fact that those numbers have improved in the service industry. 

In today's environment, I don't believe the company would have allowed the Service Manager to behave that way for fear of being slapped with a sexual harassment lawsuit.

As for answering your question, it is baiting and I don't like the bait. I am finished debating this subject, because whatever I say will be misconstrued to drag this thread out another 10 pages. 

There is no desire to understand why I may have an opinion that is different than yours. :no: In fact, I think you detest that I have the right to state my opinion. 

There is no desire to put yourself in another's place. :no: 
You don't value my opinion. :no: 
You obviously believe it is okay to distort what was stated. :yes: 
And lastly, you don't like or respect me, and you have made no bones about it. 

Seek your heart, and tell me your motives for coming after me are not mean-spirited.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> That was my first exposure to PLUMBERS, and isolated to that one shop at that point in time. It was in the late 80's, and I know for a fact that those numbers have improved in the service industry. In today's environment, I don't believe the company would have allowed the Service Manager to behave that way for fear of being slapped with a sexual harassment lawsuit. As for answering your question, it is baiting and I don't like the bait. I am finished debating this subject, because whatever I say will be misconstrued to drag this thread out another 10 pages. There is no desire to understand why I may have an opinion that is different than yours. :no: In fact, I think you detest that I have the right to state my opinion. There is no desire to put yourself in another's place. :no: You don't value my opinion. :no: You obviously believe it is okay to distort what was stated. :yes: And lastly, you don't like or respect me, and you have made no bones about it. Seek your heart, and tell me your motives for coming after me are not mean-spirited.


Ok, first off tell me you've never used something I've said as an around the back poke in my eye. Because one example from this WEEK comes to mind. So IMO turnabout is fair play. Secondly, I'm not twisting around a thing. All I did was take your example, and extrapolate a percentage from it. There was no preface from you whatsoever. How is it baiting? You stated an opinion and I questioned it. 

I think everyone has a right to an opinion. I do require one small caveat though. That you be able to defend your opinion when questioned. That is how intelligent people come to understand each other. Questioning and then defending opinions leads to greater understanding for all involved.

You're the one who talked about all the substandard plumbers you've met. Why do you choose to associate with a group that in your own words "attracts people with low self esteem" or people who are "too arrogant"?


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

Seriously? You think that a response like this is appropriate? How old are you? I'm not trying to pick a fight but really, grow up and quit the schoolyard name calling.


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## PlumbDumber (Aug 7, 2013)

PLUMBER JUMPS TO THE RESCUE !!!


There you go PC, your knight in shining armor has arrived.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

If plumber does not get banned for disrespecting on here for talking like that, then this forum is flawed.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> That is how intelligent people come to understand each other. Questioning and then defending opinions leads to greater understanding for all involved.


I have not seen anything from you that would lead me to believe you are seeking to understand. Quite the contrary.


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

Like I've said before regarding Plumber, age does not bring wisdom...
Stupid is as stupid posts...:laughing:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

PlumbDumber said:


> PLUMBER JUMPS TO THE RESCUE !!!
> 
> 
> There you go PC, your knight in shining armor has arrived.


Your post made me laugh out loud! All it needed was a super hero, donning a cape and holding up a pipe wrench.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Honestly, I missed plumbers response. Luckily for me, someone took a screenshot on the other forum. Although our debate may be borderline inappropriate PC, we refrained from hurling insults at each other like adults. When you have a vocabulary at a third grade level sometimes calling someone else a homosexual is supposed to be insulting. I won't try to get into genetics or sexual preferences but once you graduate middle school calling someone gay no longer is an insult.

Whether being gay is a choice or not, I don't quite understand why it's insulting. Personally, I'm a heterosexual and am married but I don't really take being called gay an Insult. If being straight is not being able to write beyond the level of my three year old son, having a house with wheels or being perpetually laid off from every company I've ever worked for then I guess I'm gay. 

If personal insults aren't welcome here, I think plumber has long overstayed his welcome.


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## PlumbDumber (Aug 7, 2013)

PC, this is not meant in a mean spirited way at all.

Your kind words for license holders in the trades that you have posted in this thread do not square at all with the perception that I have formed from your many posts in the past.

Your willingness to jump to the defense of every unlicensed load mouth that spouts his disdain for those of us that earned our licenses has offended me and obviously many others on this forum. I too believe that you have a bad opinion of and a disdain for most of us in the trade.

I am entirely too old and too independent to be easily swayed by what others say. I have gotten this impression strictly by reading your posts.

You made the statement that someone did not value your opinion. I strongly feel that you do not value most of ours either. Unless of course, we agree with you.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> I have not seen anything from you that would lead me to believe you are seeking to understand. Quite the contrary.


All I'm asking for is an answer. You made the assertion several times that plumbers have ego problems or otherwise personally defective. I sincerely want to know that if you feel that way about members of our trade, why would you choose to spend a good portion of your free time amongst them?


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Plumber is a protected member, anyone else would have been banned, this forum is flawed.


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

Ron said:


> Plumber is a protected member, anyone else would have been banned, this forum is flawed.


Please don't suggest Plumber be banned. Where else are you going to find such great comedy relief?:laughing:
I feel like my IQ drops a few points just by reading his posts.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

PlumbDumber said:


> PC, this is not meant in a mean spirited way at all.


I will take you at your word. I have no reason to believe otherwise.



> Your kind words for license holders in the trades that you have posted in this thread do not square at all with the perception that I have formed from your many posts in the past.


I am sorry you have that perception from some of my past posts. I have nothing but respect for the "Professional Licensed Plumber." That has never changed from the day I joined PZ. By professional, I am not just speaking of in the profession of plumbing. I am also referring to professional courtesy and a code of conduct.



> Your willingness to jump to the defense of every unlicensed load mouth that spouts his disdain for those of us that earned our licenses has offended me and obviously many others on this forum. I too believe that you have a bad opinion of and a disdain for most of us in the trade.


I am truly, truly sorry that I have led you to believe that I have a bad opinion of most of you in the trade, because it is not how I feel about it. "Some" was always the operative word. Let's for arguments sake say it's 10% in the industry - wouldn't you want to see it be even less? Doesn't that fair better for every plumber in the trade?

As for my defending the loud mouth who spouts disdain for those of you that have earned your licenses, I cannot address that because I am not sure which loud mouth you are referring to.



> I am entirely too old and too independent to be easily swayed by what others say. I have gotten this impression strictly by reading your posts.


There is a long history behind some of what has transpired. Some of those demanding respect have been some of the most disrespectful people I have ever come in contact. Being a new member, with no agenda, I will take to heart what you have said.



> You made the statement that someone did not value your opinion. I strongly feel that you do not value most of ours either. Unless of course, we agree with you.


I do value your opinion, which is why I responded to your post directly. I do try to seek to understand, and will agree to disagree when necessary. 

My respect is not conditional on whether you agree or disagree with me. You have treated me with respect and I thinks it's fair to say that I have treated you with respect. 

Mr.Biz does not agree with the term technician - yet we still treat each other with respect. Mr.Biz and Richard Hilliard do not always agree, but you will always see them treat each other with respect.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> All I'm asking for is an answer. You made the assertion several times that *SOME* plumbers have ego problems or otherwise personally defective. I sincerely want to know that if you feel that way about *SOME* members of our trade, why would you choose to spend a good portion of your free time amongst them?


I sincerely would like to know why you want to know? What concern is it of yours? I certainly don't see you hounding the others who have dissed your trade.


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

Well Phat Cat, I won't re-quote what has been said as you will only end up passing it back with yet another different spin/deflection.

You are clever to be sure but you are also as transparent as a Schott glass force main.

*Much of your writings are inflammatory - obviously, or this discussion simply would not be happening. When you're always right and it's the world that's always wrong, again, it's time to check yourself.*


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Ya ever leave a dead bass in the live well for a few days? They get slippery, real slippery :laughing:


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Phat Cat said:


> I will take you at your word. I have no reason to believe otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


After 6 pages of reading I think I have figured it out. Your definition of the word professional may be different then some of ours. Some of us (myself particularly) aren't always as proffesional as you think we should be with the written or spoken word. And there are others on here that are extremely clever and write very well, I dare say some would make Shakespeare jealous with their writing. But I would say if you checked on the police officers, electricians, hotel clerk's, truck drivers and underwater basket weavers you will find some write better than others.

I strive to be the best and # wise I am the top producer in my company, I am also requested by name by our customers. But as a plumber I see little difference between myself and my co workers, I have a great respect for them and often when customers ask for me to be the only 1 on their account I tell them how great our other guys are. I am now part of a larger company and see none of the traits you speak of in the 50+ guys we have. Are some guys better suited for construction? Sure. But such is life there will be differences in all. I know plumbers who are also, preachers, teachers, firefighters, police officers, inspectors, mods:laughing:, great fathers and husbands ETC I am racking my brain to find even one example in the circle of plumbers I know that would fit the bottom of the barrel example you give?? 

Perhaps your company has pay, working conditions or reputation that draws bottom of the barrel applicants? Perhaps you have set the bar at an unattainable level and need to remove all stereotypes or remove yourself from the process.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

@Plumber...
Thanks for your kind remarks...
I know if your not liking me I must be doing something right...:thumbup:
Of course not being a loner, convicted felon, drug addict, registered sex offender, pedophile, etc. is how I roll...

I've always worked for companies that did criminal background checks, driving record checks, & drug testing, just to weed out bad apples before the possibility of being hired...

It's hard to imagine there are companies out there that don't...
Must be some real bottom of the barrel operators out there to do such a thing...


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> I sincerely would like to know why you want to know? What concern is it of yours? I certainly don't see you hounding the others who have dissed your trade.


Because I can assume the others have a license or have worked as a plumber. There's a big difference between an outsider insulting my trade and it coming from someone who's in it.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

MarkToo said:


> Well Phat Cat, I won't re-quote what has been said as you will only end up passing it back with yet another different spin/deflection. You are clever to be sure but you are also as transparent as a Schott glass force main. Much of your writings are inflammatory - obviously, or this discussion simply would not be happening. When you're always right and it's the world that's always wrong, again, it's time to check yourself.


You want to know why I keep "picking on you" PC? This post right here. Obviously I'm not the only one who sees it. If you checked your attitude I wouldn't make it my personal mission to feed it back to you. That post you made last night describing all the scumbag plumbers you know was over the line. It came across as inflammatory, and unnecessary. 

You claim you didn't mean to give off that impression. I find that hard to believe, because so many of your posts are deprecating to the trade. Either you're going out of your way to include that in your writing for some unknown purpose, or your true opinion of plumbers is shining through your posts. You are also correct in that you're entitled to your own opinion. 

If you come on a plumbing forum, with a negative opinion of plumbers and not expect people to take exception to it, you might need to rethink some things.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

deerslayer said:


> ...I am now part of a larger company and see none of the traits you speak of in the 50+ guys we have...


For tradesman, few things can be more satisfying and gratifying than being surrounded by excellence every day. You sir are a lucky man. I have not always had that kind of luck.  Currently, though my crew be few compared to yours, they are top tier in every category.

I have trained men that have gone on to different things than what I offered them, I have escorted slugs to the exit, I have interviewed far more Plumbers than I saw fit to hire and as an employee I worked with men that were in all of those categories.

Were they necessarily bad fathers, husbands, or bad people just because they were less desirable to have on the job? Absolutely not. Or maybe they were. Who knows? I didn't and still don't. I only saw one small part of who they were at work. 

What I do know is only based on my first hand experience. There seems to be a significant number of licensed Plumbers that think their sloppy appearance and demeanor is to be not just tolerated but expected. And then there are the ones that thought it appropriate to use their current employer's vehicle and time to go on job interviews. Your experience (like mine), is only one man's view in a very, VERY, small snapshot of Plumbers as a whole.

The difference I have seen, seems to be generational and it also seems to go hand in hand with the decline of craft skills. Standards of craftsmanship seem to be less important nowadays than ever before. A quality job by some just means the pex ring didn't break. While for others (even when installing pex), the pipe looks like geometric art.

In reality, the quality of Plumbers is no more equal than the quality of their work. There are some people of excellence and some that are well...not so excellent. Maybe it is a 50/50 split in some shops, or, 25/75, or 95/5. But I seriously doubt it is the same in every market, every aspect of the trade, and every size of shop. Either way those that are not so excellent affect the view that people around them have of Plumbers in general. 

They should have it thrown in their face by example and/or words that "meh" is just not good enough.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Can you say stereotype, that is how I see PC on here.

Full Definition of STEREOTYPE

1
: to make a stereotype from
2
a : to repeat without variation : make hackneyed
b : to develop a mental stereotype about
— ste·reo·typ·er noun
Examples of STEREOTYPE

It's not fair to stereotype a whole group of people based on one person you don't like.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> I sincerely would like to know why you want to know? What concern is it of yours? I certainly don't see you hounding the others who have dissed your trade.


I want to know because in a good number of your posts your negative opinion of plumbers or the plumbing trade shines through. There isn't another member on here with such a negative view of this trade, with the exception of plumber. He doesn't count as he's more of a running joke to me than an actual serious person. So it's my concern because myself, along with quite a few others are tired of reading posts that shed such negative light on what we do for a living.

I just cannot comprehend why someone with that opinion would choose to spend their time here. Hence my repeated questioning. Why when there are so many people here that you detest, do you choose to still visit? I don't despise any plumber here. With one exception but I derive amusement from him. So we know why I'm here. Why are you?


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Wow 
I make a nice steak for dinner,watch some college hoops,wake up,shovel snow, get the snowmobile ready for a nice ride, log on and this is what I missed.

There is a lot of semantics, and weaving and bobbing, but I have yet to see an answer to my original question.:no:


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Or my question. 

She has no way to defend her own statements.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> For tradesman, few things can be more satisfying and gratifying than being surrounded by excellence every day. You sir are a lucky man. I have not always had that kind of luck. Currently, though my crew be few compared to yours, they are top tier in every category. I have trained men that have gone on to different things than what I offered them, I have escorted slugs to the exit, I have interviewed far more Plumbers than I saw fit to hire and as an employee I worked with men that were in all of those categories. Were they necessarily bad fathers, husbands, or bad people just because they were less desirable to have on the job? Absolutely not. Or maybe they were. Who knows? I didn't and still don't. I only saw one small part of who they were at work. What I do know is only based on my first hand experience. There seems to be a significant number of licensed Plumbers that think their sloppy appearance and demeanor is to be not just tolerated but expected. And then there are the ones that thought it appropriate to use their current employer's vehicle and time to go on job interviews. Your experience (like mine), is only one man's view in a very, VERY, small snapshot of Plumbers as a whole. The difference I have seen, seems to be generational and it also seems to go hand in hand with the decline of craft skills. Standards of craftsmanship seem to be less important nowadays than ever before. A quality job by some just means the pex ring didn't break. While for others (even when installing pex), the pipe looks like geometric art. In reality, the quality of Plumbers is no more equal than the quality of their work. There are some people of excellence and some that are well...not so excellent. Maybe it is a 50/50 split in some shops, or, 25/75, or 95/5. But I seriously doubt it is the same in every market, every aspect of the trade, and every size of shop. Either way those that are not so excellent affect the view that people around them have of Plumbers in general. They should have it thrown in their face by example and/or words that "meh" is just not good enough.


This is how you can say that you've seen winners and losers in the trade without hating the trade itself. It's obvious you don't hate the trade, or tradesmen biz. I think some of these substandard plumbers are just lazy, some were taught by substandard plumbers themselves, and some just don't care. But I think the division of crappy to good is no better or worse than it is with any other profession I've come across.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> This is how you can say that you've seen winners and losers in the trade without hating the trade itself. It's obvious you don't hate the trade, or tradesmen biz. I think some of these substandard plumbers are just lazy, some were taught by substandard plumbers themselves, and some just don't care. But I think the division of crappy to good is no better or worse than it is with any other profession I've come across.


True. But the ratio in our trade is the only one I care about.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

There's good doctors and bad doctors, good lawyers and bad lawyers yadda... Every job and every profession has its winners and losers but I repeat, as Masters we have total control of who does and who doesn't make it in the plumbing trade. Think about that for a second. Every single crappy plumber out there had to go through 4 years of apprentice training under a Master. That master had the kids entire future in his hands. That master has the ability to either make or break the kid. Turn him into the kind of plumber that does the trade proud or turn him into the kind of plumber that gives us all a bad name. Habits learned early are very hard to break. If you allow your apprentices to dress shabby, talk profanely, violate peoples personal property, steal from you etc, how do you think he's going to be in the future? They get their skills and habits both good an bad directly from their master. So next time you let out a string of expletives directed at the customer or another contractor, the next time you show up on the job in filthy jeans and a wife beater tea shirt spitting chew juice all over the site don't be suprised when your apprentices do the same thing.



I refuse to hire anyone that smokes.
I refuse to hire anyone with face and neck tatoo's
I refuse to hire anyone that uses the F bomb during the interview
I refuse to hire anyone with facial piercings.
I refuse to hire anyone that can't look me in the eye when speaking with me.
I refuse to hire anyone that doesn't know how to shake hands properly
I refuse to hire anyone that doesn't say hello and goodby and doesn't know what good manners are.
I refuse to hire anyone that is addicted to their cell phone.
I refuse to hire anyone that drinks to excess or takes drugs

The list is long but it keeps the creeps out of my trade :thumbsup:

For those apprentices reading this post: If your master doesn't hold you to high standards then the task is up to you.

*Raise the BAR *

PC; If your employees are as bad as you said they are I strongly suggest that you take a hard look at the masters in your shop that allow the behavior and attitude. A masters job isn't done when the kid gets his journeyman's license. As a journeyman he is still under the thumb of the masters above him.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I refuse to hire anyone that smokes.
> I refuse to hire anyone with face and neck tatoo's
> I refuse to hire anyone that uses the F bomb during the interview
> I refuse to hire anyone with facial piercings.
> ...



...sure but what's your position on hiring the toothless?

Mark


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> ...sure but what's your position on hiring the toothless?
> 
> Mark


A dental plan in their benefits package that gets them dentures... :laughing:

Raising the bar works across the board...
Better employees demand better pay and benefits...


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Redwood said:


> A dental plan in their benefits package that gets them dentures... :laughing: Raising the bar works across the board... Better employees demand better pay and benefits...


There's an old saying my dad and I use a lot. You get what you pay for. Here a plumber makes a decent living. Most of us have a standard of living beyond average, and the things mentioned here (drunks, toothless losers, HS dropouts) simply aren't tolerated. I propose we have a sort of chicken and egg scenario here. Perhaps the lowest paid, are also the biggest losers. 

If the trade doesn't demand a high wage, above the living standard of most of the people in the area, how can we expect the people populating the trade to be above average themselves. This job is difficult and demanding at times but what really weeds out good people is the wage package. I can imagine where NH is from what he says is true that you just need to weed out the bad apples and let the trade flourish. It works the same way here. But in parts of the country, where the wage package is 14-15 dollars an hour how can you expect to attract and retain top tier people? 

I wouldn't have started in this trade for McDonalds wages. If you're constantly running into losers in the trade, especially if you're the boss, perhaps it's time to look at the wages you're paying.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Last post in this thread to answer some questions, and clarify for those who have read only bits and pieces:

*Deerslayer* - Being in the industry, I do have a vested interest in how the industry is portrayed. As you pointed out, my definition of professional does not just include technical skills. 

IMO, no matter what job, field, industry you are in, you should strive to be the best that you can be. In addition, I absolutely believe every human being deserves to be treated with civility and respect. I believe the Apprentice is just as important, as the Master, as the Owner, as the Dispatcher, etc. They all serve different, but IMPORTANT roles. First and foremost, all are human beings, and as such, deserve to be treated as human beings. Secondly, when communicating, I believe it serves the industry well when it is done in a respectful manner. Treating others with disrespect is unprofessional and unnecessary.

*NHMaster* - Your list of basic requirements for employment mirror mine. I do not know where you got the idea that I had bad employees. I will say that I look for the top 10%, so obviously, that being the case, 90% would not make the grade. I will not apologize for wanting / hiring the best of the best. It is discouraging at times when looking to hire to find that the choices are very limited. At least half are eliminated just based on your list.

*ToUtah* - I may be mistaken, but I believe it is you who said I had no frame of reference, and you even went so far as to act astounded that I may have had a different experience than yours. Rather than accept that fact, it came across that I had no right to feel the way that I do, as if I live in a completely different world. Hence, writing about the very first shop I worked for. Some didn't like what I had to say about my first experience. It was used as an illustration to demonstrate that plumbers do affect public perception, (mine in particular), at that point in time ---- in that particular shop, a lot of them were the stereotype. 

Fast forward to today's plumbing shop, I would not judge a licensed plumber for wanting to distance themselves as far as they can from the stereotype. If today's plumber works in an area where customers have that perception of plumbers, it is quite understandable that they would like the term "Tech" over "Plumber." I am perplexed as to why you feel the need to degrade the "Tech" if he came from a background such as the one I experienced. I would think it makes more sense to improve the perception of plumbers in the general public so that *every* plumber would be proud to be a plumber.

RW - Why? Though I see a lot of what is wrong with the industry, in real life & online, I also see much hope for the future of the industry. I see GREAT men like Mr.Biz and Richard (there are others) nurturing and mentoring to those up & coming. I see young plumbers and business owners thirsty for knowledge, wanting to be taught the right way, wanting to be a professional, and wanting to be the absolutely best they can be. 

IF the real world was truly full of the greats that you and ToUtah seem to think, why are they here looking for information? In my view, I believe it is because they have not been able to find what they are looking for in their own backyards.

I care about the industry and the people in it. If low self-esteem is rampant as Mr.Biz suggested, then the industry has a problem. It is my belief that we owe it to the industry to try to change that. It is my belief that we should leave the world a better place than we found it. 

Mr.Biz used the term den mother, which at first I didn't really like. BUT, it does fit. Like a mother, I admonish and scold. However, it is only because I care deeply, and it is with a pure heart that I do so. Mothers don't quit their children, and I won't abandon PZ. :no:

To summarize why I am here - BECAUSE I BELIEVE THE ONES STRIVING TO BE THE BEST THAT THEY CAN BE ARE ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY WORTH THE HEAT I TAKE FOR POINTING OUT THAT THE INDUSTRY IS NOT PERFECT AND SHOULD BE IMPROVED!

*To every other member of PZ* - 

I am truly sorry if any of my posts offended you, as that was not my intention. My wish for each and everyone of you is to find your place within the industry, and to be the best that you can be, BECAUSE when you do, you will hold your head a little higher, knowing that you have contributed in a positive way to the industry. You will be part of the solution, and not the problem. The best part: When you are striving to be the best that you can be - you are already the BEST at that point in time! If you do the above, and maintain a sense of humbleness whilst doing it, you have achieved GREATNESS!


PlumbDumber - Thank you for pointing out what you did in your post. I let myself stray from my true mission, and have failed those who were expecting positive reinforcement, rather than negativity.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Again you fail to answer my question PC


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

ToUtahNow said:


> ...sure but what's your position on hiring the toothless?
> 
> Mark


If they arrive at the interview with only one tooth, it damn well better sparkle. :laughing:


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Salaries vary a bunch from area to area. There are a lot of rural areas where people wouldn't even consider hiring any outside help so that drives money down. Here is a piece from US News for two years ago:

http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/plumber/salary

As for the stereotype of toothless, high school dropouts who go through customer drawers, that must be a regional thing where Plumber and PC are located. That has not been my experience.

Mark


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

You can't get a license in Texas without a high school diploma or a GED. I'm sure it's like that in most states with a license requirement.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Phat Cat said:


> Last post in this thread to answer some questions, and clarify for those who have read only bits and pieces:
> 
> *Deerslayer* - Being in the industry, I do have a vested interest in how the industry is portrayed. As you pointed out, my definition of professional does not just include technical skills.
> 
> ...


Wow you really do not get it and perhaps that is why I question your frame of reference. You are the one who suggested there is a representative sample of plumbers from around the country on this site. Over 90% of those plumbers voted and/or commented on why they _*do not*_ want to be called techs yet you're still trying to defend the undefendable.

Mark


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

ToUtahNow said:


> Salaries vary a bunch from area to area. There are a lot of rural areas where people wouldn't even consider hiring any outside help so that drives money down. Here is a piece from US News for two years ago: http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/plumber/salary As for the stereotype of toothless, high school dropouts who go through customer drawers, that must be a regional thing where Plumber and PC are located. That has not been my experience. Mark


See the city I work in was specifically mentioned as one of the higher paid. We don't see many losers as there are quite a few guys willing to work for 75k. Want a better worker pay a premium price and you will always have good help.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Phat Cat said:


> Last post in this thread to answer some questions, and clarify for those who ha
> *ToUtah* - I may be mistaken, but I believe it is you who said I had no frame of reference, and you even went so far as to act astounded that I may have had a different experience than yours. Rather than accept that fact, it came across that I had no right to feel the way that I do, as if I live in a completely different world. Hence, writing about the very first shop I worked for. Some didn't like what I had to say about my first experience. It was used as an illustration to demonstrate that plumbers do affect public perception, (mine in particular), at that point in time ---- in that particular shop, a lot of them were the stereotype.
> 
> Fast forward to today's plumbing shop, I would not judge a licensed plumber for wanting to distance themselves as far as they can from the stereotype. If today's plumber works in an area where customers have that perception of plumbers, it is quite understandable that they would like the term "Tech" over "Plumber." I am perplexed as to why you feel the need to degrade the "Tech" if he came from a background such as the one I experienced. I would think it makes more sense to improve the perception of plumbers in the general public so that *every* plumber would be proud to be a plumber.


By the way, I am not the one degrading the term "Tech". It is the shops who are putting unqualified, inexperienced workers out there who are not ready for their own truck yet and pretending they are plumbers. The minute I am told a "Tech" was sent out I know how and why the job was screwed up. This obviously does not apply to the remarkably low number of real plumbers who want to be called "Tech".

Mark


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Quote worth re-quoting. 


nhmaster3015 said:


> I refuse to hire anyone that smokes.
> I refuse to hire anyone with face and neck tatoo's
> I refuse to hire anyone that uses the F bomb during the interview
> I refuse to hire anyone with facial piercings.
> ...


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I was on a tract housing job before the bubble burst, in Local 130's jurisdiction. When the downtown Chicago work slowed down, the BA ran off a bunch of travelers and loaded up the job with a bunch of 130 guys. They also brought their drug dealer. They might have had all their teeth, but they were scumbags. I drug up in a week, I couldn't take working with them any longer. It's funny, they looked down on the travelers who were all from down South as hillbillies, but they were nicer people and better men than the "high rise plumbers."

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## richlaf (Mar 21, 2014)

When I went from plumbing to HVAC back in the 70's I was called a "Heating man" in the shop. We worked on air conditioning too but that was still a luxury in residential in Michigan at that time.

The idea of changing the name of Plumbers to anything else would never have been considered. When I started working as a laborer that's the ticket that I wanted and I always kept my journey license current even though I did mostly HVAC work.

Plumbing is an ancient trade going back at least a couple of thousand years to Rome. Compare that with about 100 years for the electrical trade and less for HVAC.

There is no trade that does a better job of educating apprentices than the plumbing unions and I think that contractors should maintain this distinction by using the term "plumber" and not "tech".


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

richlaf said:


> When I went from plumbing to HVAC back in the 70's I was called a "Heating man" in the shop. We worked on air conditioning too but that was still a luxury in residential in Michigan at that time.
> 
> The idea of changing the name of Plumbers to anything else would never have been considered. When I started working as a laborer that's the ticket that I wanted and I always kept my journey license current even though I did mostly HVAC work.
> 
> ...


I started the trades in 1972, working for _E. L. Payne_ in Beverly Hills. We were either called Heating or A/C followed by the word Installer or Serviceman. There were a lot of guys who had been with them 40-50 years. They worked the same route their entire adult life. Those guys were not about to learn A/C so they did heating only and were laid off during the summer. Being of the Payne Furnace fame, we also built Payne Beverly gravity furnaces. It was a great place to start out and great guys.

Mark


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Anyone read the new edition of PM :whistling2:


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

PLUMB TIME said:


> Anyone read the new edition of PM :whistling2:


Yes


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

PLUMB TIME said:


> Anyone read the new edition of PM :whistling2:


Care to link to the article you found interesting?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Phat Cat said:


> Care to link to the article you found interesting?


I have no doubt it is this one about stuff that rots your teeth...

http://www.pmmag.com/articles/96304-technicians-are-your-brand


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

The language there always focuses on techs. It is through out the magazine.

Partially because of all the negative things mentioned in this and other threads. And because the articles target more than just Plumbers. HVAC techs are in the P&M audience.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Redwood said:


> I have no doubt it is this one about stuff that rots your teeth...
> 
> http://www.pmmag.com/articles/96304-technicians-are-your-brand


Wow! In a trade publication with "Plumbing" in it's name no less. 

SHOCKING!

How did that plumbing company operator ever convince anyone to follow his lead? Hmmmm . . . wonder if he is successful and found out some things are worth changing? 

Sure makes you wonder. Maybe it's just a regional thing? IDK


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> The language there always focuses on techs. It is through out the magazine.
> 
> Partially because of all the negative things mentioned in this and other threads. And because the articles target more than just Plumbers. HVAC techs are in the P&M audience.


Very true, but he could have used the terms "plumbers and techs" if that were true. 

In all articles where "Tech" is mentioned, why not write the article using "plumber" knowing HVAC techs can substitute the word tech for plumber. 

The writer owns a plumbing company . . . Hmmmmmm


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

It fits well with the Ben Franklin Franchise Of The Month theme of the magazine...

Hardly worth reading...
But if it's the only one next to the throne at the shop you might as well thumb through it while you're taking a dump...:laughing:


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Let's not forget, this guy is more "the blue collar coach" than running his plumbing business. He reminds me of a Brazil or Diamond.

Mark


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Phat Cat said:


> Wow! In a trade publication with "Plumbing" in it's name no less.
> 
> SHOCKING!
> 
> ...


Oddly enough, I did not read any of what you prescribe to the word plumber or how plumbers are embarrassed to be called plumbers in that trade publication.

Mark


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> Oddly enough, I did not read any of what you prescribe to the word plumber or how plumbers are embarrassed to be called plumbers in that trade publication.
> 
> Mark


See quote below.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Ron said:


> See quote below.


What Quote Ron? 

Did you forget to include it in your post? :whistling2:


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

Oh Ronnnnnnnn


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

Where is he? He hasn't been on lately.


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

Maybe he got fed up. Or did he?


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

I doubt Ron was banned as he is one of the originals. Sometimes life gets busy and you don't post every day. It it does appear the quote he used from PC is no longer in his signature though.

Mark


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> I doubt Ron was banned as he is one of the originals. Sometimes life gets busy and you don't post every day. It it does appear the quote he used from PC is no longer in his signature though.
> 
> Mark


Looks like he might be...
It says Registered Member under his name now...:whistling2:


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Looks like he might be...
> It says Registered Member under his name now...:whistling2:


What's it suppose to say?

Mark


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> What's it suppose to say?
> 
> Mark


In his case it would be "Senior Member" or one of his own choice...
Registered Member I guess is the default for banned members or if someone chooses to place it there like you have chosen No Longer At This Address...


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Good to know.

Mark


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I have always liked "previous member" :laughing:


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