# Indirect waste



## SCADman (Aug 13, 2011)

Ok, I got a good one.

Section 803.0 in the UPC requires a trap on indirect waste piping over 5 ft in length. Remember that this is going to drop into a receptor (such as a floor sink) that will be properly trapped.

My question is, why in the world would the indirect piping require a trap? The ONLY reason for a p-trap is to keep sewer gases out. If I am wrong about this, PLEASE let me know. Installing a trap in this situation is only an obstruction as far as I can tell. Nobody has been able to come up with a logical answer for me. Any thoughts???


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

SCADman said:


> Ok, I got a good one.
> 
> Section 803.0 in the UPC requires a trap on indirect waste piping over 5 ft in length. Remember that this is going to drop into a receptor (such as a floor sink) that will be properly trapped.
> 
> My question is, why in the world would the indirect piping require a trap? The ONLY reason for a p-trap is to keep sewer gases out. If I am wrong about this, PLEASE let me know. Installing a trap in this situation is only an obstruction as far as I can tell. Nobody has been able to come up with a logical answer for me. Any thoughts???


It's a smell issue.

I've gone into a few bar and restaurant remodels and removed over extended indirect waste lines that stunk to high heaven.


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## SCADman (Aug 13, 2011)

Widdershins said:


> It's a smell issue.


Hmmm. Seems to me that since the piping terminates above the exposed floor sink to atmosphere, that the odor is going to escape into the air regardless. The floor sink is usually going to be located in the same general area as the fixture it's serving. So by your experience, do you find that the trap does in fact reduce the odor?


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

If you have a trap, it needs to be vented, so that means you will have to make venting provisions= pita


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

SCADman said:


> Hmmm. Seems to me that since the piping terminates above the exposed floor sink to atmosphere, that the odor is going to escape into the air regardless. The floor sink is usually going to be located in the same general area as the fixture it's serving. So by your experience, do you find that the trap does in fact reduce the odor?



It helped at a VFW, some times you end up dealing with what they have in place. This one ran about 15 feet flat.


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## SCADman (Aug 13, 2011)

Mississippiplum said:


> If you have a trap, it needs to be vented, so that means you will have to make venting provisions= pita


The UPC allows a trap without venting on the indirect piping if it's less than 15 ft in length. I understand the purpose of the vent with the trap, but I still don't agree that the trap is necessary in the first place.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

SCADman said:


> Hmmm. Seems to me that since the piping terminates above the exposed floor sink to atmosphere, that the odor is going to escape into the air regardless. The floor sink is usually going to be located in the same general area as the fixture it's serving. So by your experience, do you find that the trap does in fact reduce the odor?


 It reduces the odor for the person standing in front of the jockey box, prep sink, ice bin or glass rack.

I just did a bar remodel over on the East side where all of the jockey box drains were over extended -- The drain lines were full of sliced lemons that the bar tender had forced through the drain opening, as well as coffee grounds -- Not having enough liquid going through the drain to wash down the solids meant the solids sat there in the drain and rotted.

I about tossed my cookies when I demoed out the bar prior to the remodel.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Mississippiplum said:


> If you have a trap, it needs to be vented, so that means you will have to make venting provisions= pita


 Only if it exceeds 15 feet in developed length on an indirect drain under the UPC.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

SCADman said:


> The UPC allows a trap without venting on the indirect piping if it's less than 15 ft in length. I understand the purpose of the vent with the trap, but I still don't agree that the trap is necessary in the first place.


 Sorry, I didn't see your post before replying to that Mrs. Pissy feller.


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## SCADman (Aug 13, 2011)

DesertOkie said:


> It helped at a VFW, some times you end up dealing with what they have in place. This one ran about 15 feet flat.


So I take it the trap kept the odor away from the fixture itself, and further down to an area that would be less of a nuisance? I suppose that makes sense. It seems like it should be a matter of design rather than a hard code. There are plenty of situations where adding the trap would to little, if any good, so to require it by code just because it's over 5 ft long seems a little irrelevant.

Thanks for your input guys, that shed some light.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

SCADman said:


> So I take it the trap kept the odor away from the fixture itself, and further down to an area that would be less of a nuisance? I suppose that makes sense. It seems like it should be a matter of design rather than a hard code. There are plenty of situations where adding the trap would to little, if any good, so to require it by code just because it's over 5 ft long seems a little irrelevant.
> 
> Thanks for your input guys, that shed some light.


 I think that provision in the code was initially adopted to cover sinks used for food preparation where the likelihood of incomplete washdown of solids is more prevalent.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

SCADman said:


> So I take it the trap kept the odor away from the fixture itself, and further down to an area that would be less of a nuisance? I suppose that makes sense. It seems like it should be a matter of design rather than a hard code. There are plenty of situations where adding the trap would to little, if any good, so to require it by code just because it's over 5 ft long seems a little irrelevant.
> 
> Thanks for your input guys, that shed some light.


In my case I do service plumbing so I go in to fix their issue, bad smell. In this case the cemented a floor sink because the p-trap was broke and to much $$ to fix.  The guys rigged a drain around the way to the other floor sink. They are going to fix the floor sink when they have the $.


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

I think a trap on indirect i s stupid, but i dont make the rules


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## SCADman (Aug 13, 2011)

beachplumber said:


> I think a trap on indirect i s stupid, but i dont make the rules


Thanks beachplumber, I'm not alone. But the input from these guys appeases me, at least it's not COMPLETELY asinine.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Try not to over analyze codes, some items are just bright ideas that were approved.


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## SCADman (Aug 13, 2011)

SlickRick said:


> Try not to over l;codes, some items are just bright ideas that were approved.


Yeah, I get hung up on these kind of things. I need to understand the intent of every code because I know there has to be a reason for it, and if I can't find it then I must be missing something.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

SCADman said:


> Yeah, I get hung up on these kind of things. I need to understand the intent of every code because I know there has to be a reason for it, and if I can't find it then I must be missing something.


And that's a good thing.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

I have two separate bars that are having the same issue. When they pour ice into there service sinks,(does'nt happen with water, ice only) they get a horrific smell that permeates the area. They both have short indirect drains going into FS. I was wondering if installing traps on the indirect drains would help? Any theories or similar probs?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

89plumbum said:


> I have two separate bars that are having the same issue. When they pour ice into there service sinks,(does'nt happen with water, ice only) they get a horrific smell that permeates the area. They both have short indirect drains going into FS. I was wondering if installing traps on the indirect drains would help? Any theories or similar probs?


 





Maybe it's the ice? I would check the water filter connected to the ice maker. Maybe the water used to make ice is contaminated. Just my 2 cents.


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