# Recirc system opinions?



## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

http://us.grundfos.com/products/find-product/comfort-pumps-up-10.html

What's better? What's worse? Why? Any other thoughts on these?


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I'm not a fan.

I've replaced/removed several that were not very old. The pumps do not hold up well and start making crazy noises when they kick on. 

In addition to that, they are stupidly inefficient as a retrofit option. Converting uninsulated pipe into a circ system is just a needless waste of energy. Even though running water until it gets hot is a waste also, it pales in comparison to an uninsulated heating loop that has to maintain its temperature level 24/7/365.


----------



## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

I actually like those. I install them to be used at certain times(6am-8am, 6pm-10pm etc) and not to run 24/7. Or I'll install them on a switch that can be flipped on when the home owner wants hot water.


----------



## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Will said:


> I'll install them on a switch that can be flipped on when the home owner wants hot water.


I install a faucet with a hot water lever on the left side when the homeowner wants hot water.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

If installed properly, you don't need any stinky pump on re circ line!


----------



## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> If installed properly, you don't need any stinky pump on re circ line!


When you gonna fix that broken record?


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

MTDUNN said:


> When you gonna fix that broken record?


When they learn how to pipe the re circ line correctly..


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

MTDUNN said:


> When you gonna fix that broken record?


If Moen ever decides to make a pump there will be no living with him at all. :laughing:


----------



## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

MTDUNN said:


> I install a faucet with a hot water lever on the left side when the homeowner wants hot water.


You got anything intelligent to add to that?


----------



## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Will said:


> You got anything intelligent to add to that?


I whole heatedly apologize for my witty response. I have absolutely nothing intelligent to ad sir.


----------



## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Will said:


> I actually like those. I install them to be used at certain times(6am-8am, 6pm-10pm etc) and not to run 24/7. Or I'll install them on a switch that can be flipped on when the home owner wants hot water.


where do you put the switch? Any difference between the grundfos or the watts? They look the exact same to me, just a big difference in price


----------



## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Will said:


> I actually like those. I install them to be used at certain times(6am-8am, 6pm-10pm etc) and not to run 24/7. Or I'll install them on a switch that can be flipped on when the home owner wants hot water.


Have you tried the motion sensor ones? They work pretty good also.


----------



## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

PLUMB TIME said:


> Have you tried the motion sensor ones? They work pretty good also.


any links or names?


----------



## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

gear junkie said:


> any links or names?


I'm pretty sure it was Laing.


----------



## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Check that, Taco or Watts has them. The one I did was a Taco.


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

gear junkie said:


> http://us.grundfos.com/products/find-product/comfort-pumps-up-10.html
> 
> What's better? What's worse? Why? Any other thoughts on these?


I use Grunfos with the grey valve installed in a vanity and have had no problems -- except and this is not a Grunfos problem. If the toilet has any kind of a small leak the tank water in most cases will get hot. Usually happens with any fill valve that drops a inch or two before it fills. Like a F/Master


----------



## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

gear junkie said:


> where do you put the switch? Any difference between the grundfos or the watts? They look the exact same to me, just a big difference in price


Anywhere the home owner wants it. Master or kitchen


----------



## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

PLUMB TIME said:


> Have you tried the motion sensor ones? They work pretty good also.


I haven't used those, remember seeing them in continueing ed. Have to check them out, I like Grounfos though, I think they have the best product


----------



## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

That's good to know, Bill. I, too like and have installed, without a problem, the Grundfos Comfort pump w/ timer and it works well. 

The only issue I had once was with the check valve in the bypass valve. It would hammer back and forth when the lav faucet was shut off. This occurred when the pump was off. I called Grundfos and they sent me a newer and a little stronger check valve and problem was solved. 

I try to avoid putting them on galv systems due to it speeding up the corrosion. I always recommend against running them 24/7. On Pex or CPVC systems it can run 24/7 but I agree with Biz that its a waste of energy. The timer or switch is best IMO. You're not wasting water either way. 

The main issue I have with 24/7 circulation is pin hole leaks in copper. So little new construction done with copper pipes in Houston from 80 to the 2000s in residential was reamed at the cuts. Clearly I am going to see mostly improperly done copper being I do service, but this fact along with bad water and the extensive use of cheap type M copper is why 24/7 hot water circ pumps cause pin hole leaks so rapidly. 

I have seen at a one year old hotel in between floors a 2" copper pipe that had a pin hole 3" away from a 2" X 3/4" copper tee. I went to shut the boilers down and found a 3/4" 90° in the boiler room that was on a hot water return also leaking but it was leaking on the fitting itself. When I cut out the fittings I could see that the pipe had not been reamed and was cut sloppy and fast. 

On the tee they had shoved the 3/4" pipe way past the hub to the point of half way into the 2" part of the tee. 

The 3/4" 90° on the return for the circ pump had a pin hole in the center of the top or outer edge. Both original pipe cuts on the 90° were also not reamed. 

All the pipe was on the hot side and type M. It was in an incorporated city and was inspected. I went back with all pro press fittings and I did ream all my cuts.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

gear junkie said:


> any links or names?


Yea... Leviton...

As far as I know the Laing AutoCirc is a timer controlled pump...

Occupancy Sensors aren't a bad idea...
Walk in the door to take that morning leak and the hot water is on its way...


----------



## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Redwood said:


> Yea... Leviton...
> 
> As far as I know the Laing AutoCirc is a timer controlled pump...
> 
> ...


I've heard of those motion sensor ones. I like the idea.


----------



## wyplumber (Feb 14, 2013)

MTDUNN said:


> I install a faucet with a hot water lever on the left side when the homeowner wants hot water.


wasn't expecting this as a response but almost fell out of the desk chair laughing. we use wilo pumps for everything http://www.bsholdingsltd.com/DOCS/HAH DOCS/Wilo Domestic Products.pdf


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Our customers like them a lot. :thumbup: So far, we have only had one go up sooner than you would expect. I believe the literature states it requires the same amount of energy as running a 15 watt or 25 watt light bulb, if you have them run 24/7/365. 

That's nothing compared to a teenager turning on a shower and leaving the bathroom for five minutes, or longer, while they are waiting for hot water. Water usage in our home went down once it was installed. IMO, a great retrofit option. It runs twice a day, and no more, yelling 'who left the shower on' and no more running out of hot water because they left the water running.

Not having to wait for hot water is a luxury. Shame on you Mr.Biz for interjecting responsibility into the matter.


----------



## PlumbDumber (Aug 7, 2013)

I prefer to install a small (6-10 gallon) point of use water heater at the remote end of the house and feed it with the main heater. The hot water is immediately available, there is no waste of water, and the colder water in the feed piping goes to the bottom of the point of use tank and has little or no affect on the temperature of the water in the POU tank.

The heat loss through the tank jacket is usually less than the loss through the insulated piping and the cost of running and maintaining the pump is eliminated.


----------



## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

Just asking... what's wrong with a well insulated gravity-fed/thermal-siphon circ. system, if the piping is overhead and at acceptable distance? 

I toyed around with a hot water lobster in my own house and didn't see any difference in the electrical bill.


----------



## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

I modified two of those for clients who had issues with freezing water lines during the worst of our winter weather. In each instance I modified the thermostatic manifolds by removing the thermostat from them, and installed the pump normally. One home had a bathroom that extended over their main entrance, so it was obviously not properly insulated or sealed underneath. I noted that the fix was more of a temporary nature and that they should have the soffit pulled and the insulation revised with some sheet foam and I feel confident the HO was going to pursue that route. I didn't however like that it was not automatic according to the outside weather, and running it all year was not desirable due to having to run the cold water for a while to get it down to a reasonable temperature. The first house I did it in was very curious, as the affected washroom was not over a cantilever or anything of the sort, not even against an outside wall for Pete's sake. I checked for sources of cold air infiltration such as stuck dampers on the bathroom or dryer exhausts, combustion air inlets and such. That one bugs me to this day, it was in a very pricey custom home and while I came up with an effective fix, I didn't truly solve the problem by eliminating the cold infiltration, wherever it was. Certainly it would be an excellent application for someone with a FLIR camera.


----------

