# Control Stop on the fly



## NyNick (Feb 14, 2013)

Have any of you changed a Sloan Regal or Royal control stop out without shutting the supply off? I now work in a hospital and to my suprise valves are few and far between. I cant even stick my head up into the cieling to find one because removing a tile requires about 3 meetings, 2 hours of paper work and air testing...its a big deal and coming from working in construction is really frustrating. An example would be using my screw driver to turn off the stop and the stop breaking and springing a leak flooding out patient room because nobody can get to a shutoff valve. Id rather have a small flood than a big flood so Any tips, tricks, advice?


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

I've never had the supply stop break and cause a massive leak. Worst case was that turning it off resulted in a significantly reduced flow and I was still able to make the repairs to the flush valve and then mop up the water from the floor, but made a recommendation to replace the supply stop at the convenience of the business for ease of future repairs.

I understand in a hospital that may be difficult still, but I would imagine they would have some sort of maintenance team that should have some idea where shutoffs are located.


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

A rule of thumb for my small company is to know how and where to shut the water off before any work is started.

Before I started my own company, I worked for the government for 2 years and understand the frustration.

You can make it a personal rule to have a latter, a few empty buckets & maybe a valve hook(piece of half-inch conduit bent into a hook 5 to 7 feet long ) with you before starting even the easiest of jobs.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

I have changed many main line valves on the fly up to 1 inch, after that the water pressure and volume is just to much to handle, but this has been done in open basements or crawl spaces where any amount of water will do no damage, now in a commercial building with multiple stories where flood damage could run into the tens or hundreds of thousands of $$$..I would want to know where the shut off valve is and make sure it worked before I started any repairs..


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)




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## NyNick (Feb 14, 2013)

The seals wear out and when you turn the screw water drips from the screw and in worse cases shoots out from the screw no matter if its turned off or on. The problem is compounded because its a hospital. Water on the floor could cause slip n falls and the time it takes to find a valve could cause a lot of water to fill the patients room. Its a state hospital...nobody wants to do anything or buy anything which takes forever to procure. The house "plumbers" which i am now one of have set up things and hold things secret (like valve locations) to ensure job security. Not installing valves also adds to job security ie...Overtime. I am new here and not used to working like this. I was wondering if I got a leak i could maybe disconnect flushometer from the stop maybe add a hose and hope the water would take path of least resistanse through the hose dumped into drain buying enough time to change the broken stop valve....I dunno. Im coming from union construction and have not had to deal much with service n repair work until now. Sooo any tips or thought are appreciated..thanks


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

NyNick said:


> The seals wear out and when you turn the screw water drips from the screw and in worse cases shoots out from the screw no matter if its turned off or on. The problem is compounded because its a hospital. Water on the floor could cause slip n falls and the time it takes to find a valve could cause a lot of water to fill the patients room. Its a state hospital...nobody wants to do anything or buy anything which takes forever to procure. The house "plumbers" which i am now one of have set up things and hold things secret (like valve locations) to ensure job security. Not installing valves also adds to job security ie...Overtime. I am new here and not used to working like this. I was wondering if I got a leak i could maybe disconnect flushometer from the stop maybe add a hose and hope the water would take path of least resistanse through the hose dumped into drain buying enough time to change the broken stop valve....I dunno. Im coming from union construction and have not had to deal much with service n repair work until now. Sooo any tips or thought are appreciated..thanks


Sadly, because they are angle valves, the path of least resistance is straight out into your face, not through the flush valve.

Not only that, but I try to be gentle with those stops when I change them, if I have to change to body, because most of the time they are just screwed on to a soldered fitting, and with the sleeve there, you can't hold it with a tool.

Another reason i'd want the water off before screwing with the stop.

I've had them drip before, but sometimes you can rotate em 1/4 turn left or right and they will stop. Never had one shoot out into the room uncontrollably.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

There should be a set of valves in the ceiling, wall, etc. to shut off areas without interfering with the whole building. Most codes require it.

Look for obvious panels.


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> https://youtu.be/OP30okjpCko


I wish I could see what the fk his actual problem was. 


But upstairs in an apartment building without the water off? hahahahahhaha what a sucky day for that dude.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I worked at the casino for a year as a 2nd year apprentice doing plumbing maintenance full time. There weren't many valves to shut down the line and fix a faucet for example. It was a nightmare, my mechanic would swear up and down searching for nights 1,2, 3! (we were working nights) to find a valve. Renting a scissor lift up to the ceiling 40 feet in the air, looking in dead space shafts using gang planks to try and access a valve hoping its the right one and usually it wasn't it. Many times we'd put a bucket in the ceiling tied with wire to catch the drip so they could use the black jack table during the day because we wouldn't have time to drain the system and repair.

Last summer at a hospital, the guy that does maintenance assured the plumber I know (just recently finished his 4th year apprenticeship) the water was shut off. He proceeded to cut a 4" copper water main with a sawzall. Flooded 3 floors, shut down surgery and several rooms. Several millions in damages. A year after that I worked for that same company, the plumber left to work with another company. What a stupid boss owner(Another story and my last boss ever!!)

What I'm saying do it on the fly and watch the millions go out the window and you may go to jail because of criminal negligence. Your reputation as a dumba$$ will follow you for life.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

I put my ass in the ringer once while freezing and capping lines in a hospital. 
Had a 140° hot line blow with no back up. I was heating the line to sweat on a cap and the heat got too close to the freeze plug. Flooded a good portion of the floor. There wasn't a next time, but if there ever is, I will have a plan "b", like using an female adapter instead of a cap with a sharkbite as a back up. They didn't have sharkbites back when this occurred.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Plumbus said:


> I put my ass in the ringer once while freezing and capping lines in a hospital.
> Had a 140° hot line blow with no back up. I was heating the line to sweat on a cap and the heat got too close to the freeze plug. Flooded a good portion of the floor. There wasn't a next time, but if there ever is, I will have a plan "b", like using an female adapter instead of a cap with a sharkbite as a back up. They didn't have sharkbites back when this occurred.


Freeze plug and a jet swet as a second line of defence with like you say an adapter or ball valve while keeping a 2x SB right beside you.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> I worked at the casino for a year as a 2nd year apprentice doing plumbing maintenance full time. There weren't many valves to shut down the line and fix a faucet for example. It was a nightmare, my mechanic would swear up and down searching for nights 1,2, 3! (we were working nights) to find a valve. Renting a scissor lift up to the ceiling 40 feet in the air, looking in dead space shafts using gang planks to try and access a valve hoping its the right one and usually it wasn't it. Many times we'd put a bucket in the ceiling tied with wire to catch the drip so they could use the black jack table during the day because we wouldn't have time to drain the system and repair.
> 
> Last summer at a hospital, the guy that does maintenance assured the plumber I know (just recently finished his 4th year apprenticeship) the water was shut off. He proceeded to cut a 4" copper water main with a sawzall. Flooded 3 floors, shut down surgery and several rooms. Several millions in damages. A year after that I worked for that same company, the plumber left to work with another company. What a stupid boss owner(Another story and my last boss ever!!)
> 
> What I'm saying do it on the fly and watch the millions go out the window and you may go to jail because of criminal negligence. Your reputation as a dumba$$ will follow you for life.



when it comes to my insurance and or reputation, I trust no one but myself to make sure the water, gas , electric or anything is shut down and I want to actually see where the shut offs are in case I need to run for them...otherwise no work starts..period end of conversation..


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> when it comes to my insurance and or reputation, I trust no one but myself to make sure the water, gas , electric or anything is shut down and I want to actually see where the shut offs are in case I need to run for them...otherwise no work starts..period end of conversation..


Yep. People always want to shut down water for me, and that's fine, but I'm coming with you just so I know where it is, in case I need it the next time you call me out and you aren't home.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> when it comes to my insurance and or reputation, I trust no one but myself to make sure the water, gas , electric or anything is shut down and I want to actually see where the shut offs are in case I need to run for them...otherwise no work starts..period end of conversation..


I almost died once or would of been burned badly by steam. papermill shutdown : the foreman who nobody liked told me to start unbolt a 12" steam pressure valve. Close behind me I was seeing steam comming out of another pipe. He assured me the mill had shut it down and locked and tagged. Well screw him I did my own walk through several floors to find out the line was still live. 

I gave him hell! Sometimes it's impossible on shutdowns as you can't walk away like that and the lines start in other buildings. Unbolting a 14" condensate line also spewed as the pocket released and boiling water flooded the mill floor 6 inches. I was lucky I had split the flanges and was waiting 10 feet away for the welder to come back when it came boiling out.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Tango said:


> I almost died once or would of been burned badly by steam. papermill shutdown : the foreman who nobody liked told me to start unbolt a 12" steam pressure valve. Close behind me I was seeing steam comming out of another pipe. He assured me the mill had shut it down and locked and tagged. Well screw him I did my own walk through several floors to find out the line was still live.
> 
> I gave him hell! Sometimes it's impossible on shutdowns as you can't walk away like that and the lines start in other buildings. Unbolting a 14" condensate line also spewed as the pocket released and boiling water flooded the mill flor 6 inches. I was lucky the I had split the flanges and was waiting 10 feet away for the welder to come back when it came boiling out.


A few years ago here in Charlotte, a seasoned sprinkler fitter came back to work after burying his mom in another state. His first day back, he took apart a 6" victaulic cap that was still on test. They say say it took his whole face off and killed him instantly. I'm glad you didn't listen to your foreman.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

NyNick said:


> Have any of you changed a Sloan Regal or Royal control stop out without shutting the supply off?


Yes, but it was in a lawn maintenance shop with low pressure so no big deal.

I can't even imagine trying this in a finished hospital. Anything can go wrong. The sweat ring could come off as your loosening it. I agree hospital work can be a pain, but you gotta follow protocol.


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## NyNick (Feb 14, 2013)

The problem is that aside from the lack of valves you can't pop your head into the cieling to see if there is a valve. Most of these calls are bathrooms in patient rooms. You arent allowed to open a drop cieling tile with a patient there. Even without a patient in the room (empty room) you have to set up a booth that extends to the cieling. Then after you close the cieling tile someone has to come in and test the air. So it takes at least an hour and paper work to slide open 1 drop cieling tile. Also, if there is a valve it may not just shut off the water to that one bathroon. It might shut water off to the ER. Or dyalisis room which might be on the same floor...crazy right


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

NyNick said:


> The problem is that aside from the lack of valves you can't pop your head into the cieling to see if there is a valve. Most of these calls are bathrooms in patient rooms. You arent allowed to open a drop cieling tile with a patient there. Even without a patient in the room (empty room) you have to set up a booth that extends to the cieling. Then after you close the cieling tile someone has to come in and test the air. So it takes at least an hour and paper work to slide open 1 drop cieling tile. Also, if there is a valve it may not just shut off the water to that one bathroon. It might shut water off to the ER. Or dyalisis room which might be on the same floor...crazy right



sure is, but flooding 5 floors down would be much worse...and how many millions of damage..so weigh the liability and if you cant find valves and any boss tells you to go ahead make sure you got witnesses after the flood, because you know you will be the scape goat and hung out to dry...no pun intended..


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

NyNick said:


> The problem is that aside from the lack of valves you can't pop your head into the cieling to see if there is a valve. Most of these calls are bathrooms in patient rooms. You arent allowed to open a drop cieling tile with a patient there. Even without a patient in the room (empty room) you have to set up a booth that extends to the cieling. Then after you close the cieling tile someone has to come in and test the air. So it takes at least an hour and paper work to slide open 1 drop cieling tile. Also, if there is a valve it may not just shut off the water to that one bathroon. It might shut water off to the ER. Or dyalisis room which might be on the same floor...crazy right


I lived that situation with booths installed for dust control in hospitals. They would set it up during the day and we'd work at night and replaced the 100+ year old cast iron in the hospital. No fun and the small guy crawled on top of the ducts because I didn't fit to plant hangers. I hated that job!!


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

NyNick said:


> So it takes at least an hour and paper work to slide open 1 drop cieling tile.



You want crazy how about this. I'm working on an oil refinerie in Alberta where there were in excess if I remember correctly over 3000 pipe fitters and welders and they decided to tighten on accidents. We weren't allowed to use zip cuts anymore because someone got hurt. We were stuck with these 3/32 disks or something like that trying to cut 6",12" pipe. What a time consuming ordeal.

So one afternoon where we were making double time money on catwalks over 10 stories high to fit a vent with the 300 ton crane. The crew I was with had to cut a portion off. Well guess what the foreman got angry of time wasted and wanted zip cuts. He had to sign a paper then it had to be signed by his boss and someone like the top boss of the refinery. After several hours I got the necessary paperwork and went to the tool crib. I was handed 1 zip! Up to the 10 th floor. Obviously the elevator was not in use yet. The zip lasted a few minutes and I had to return to get a single replacement at a time. The big bosses were so pissed of all that stupid nonsense. The job that was supposed to take 2-3 hours took a 14 hour shift while the crane is costing over 1000$ an hour or something and a crew of 8 twiddling their thumbs trying to look busy so we didn't get fired...


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## exclamation (Mar 11, 2013)

Zip cuts? What is?


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

exclamation said:


> Zip cuts? What is?


I'm picturing some specialty cutoff wheel, but i'm not really sure.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

exclamation said:


> Zip cuts? What is?


Those are the thinnest cut off grinder disks to cut metal, pipe etc.

https://www.walter.com/en_CA/products/abrasives/cutting/zipcut


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

This is the refinery in question, I circled close to where I was working. The front building was my room in the sleeping dorms.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> You want crazy how about this. I'm working on an oil refinerie in Alberta where there were in excess if I remember correctly over 3000 pipe fitters and welders and they decided to tighten on accidents. We weren't allowed to use zip cuts anymore because someone got hurt. We were stuck with these 3/32 disks or something like that trying to cut 6",12" pipe. What a time consuming ordeal.
> 
> So one afternoon where we were making double time money on catwalks over 10 stories high to fit a vent with the 300 ton crane. The crew I was with had to cut a portion off. Well guess what the foreman got angry of time wasted and wanted zip cuts. He had to sign a paper then it had to be signed by his boss and someone like the top boss of the refinery. After several hours I got the necessary paperwork and went to the tool crib. I was handed 1 zip! Up to the 10 th floor. Obviously the elevator was not in use yet. The zip lasted a few minutes and I had to return to get a single replacement at a time. The big bosses were so pissed of all that stupid nonsense. The job that was supposed to take 2-3 hours took a 14 hour shift while the crane is costing over 1000$ an hour or something and a crew of 8 twiddling their thumbs trying to look busy so we didn't get fired...


penny wise and dollar foolish are the bean counters sometimes..I dont do heights so good luck to you 10 stories up...:surprise:


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I dont do heights so good luck to you 10 stories up...:surprise:


I remember when I first started as an apprentice I was pretty much a stranger to a stepladder.

Now I find myself doing spiderman tricks on the top step of the 6 footers once in a while. 

Still i'm with you... 10 stories? Eff that.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Alan said:


> I remember when I first started as an apprentice I was pretty much a stranger to a stepladder.
> 
> Now I find myself doing spiderman tricks on the top step of the 6 footers once in a while.
> 
> Still i'm with you... 10 stories? Eff that.


No worries, lots of scaffolding and catwalks where you work, the guys who erect them are always on the brink though. 

I did scare the hell out of a welder one time and me too over there at night around 2:30 am. He wanted me to put the boom lift basket against the structure so he could weld the channel. We were about 45 feet in the air. The hydraulics settled during the weld and when I started the lift engine the basket was jammed, I tried and tried to go gently until it kicked in and the basket dislodged and we must of dropped 5 or 6 feet downwards very quickly like a ball bouncing off a wall and swayed back and forth. He refused to go up a lift until the lay off.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Alan said:


> I remember when I first started as an apprentice I was pretty much a stranger to a stepladder.
> 
> Now I find myself doing spiderman tricks on the top step of the 6 footers once in a while.
> 
> Still i'm with you... 10 stories? Eff that.


my limit now is about 10 to 15 ft on a ladder if that.....when younger I would go higher but always didnt like heights....


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> Tango said:
> 
> 
> > I worked at the casino for a year as a 2nd year apprentice doing plumbing maintenance full time. There weren't many valves to shut down the line and fix a faucet for example. It was a nightmare, my mechanic would swear up and down searching for nights 1,2, 3! (we were working nights) to find a valve. Renting a scissor lift up to the ceiling 40 feet in the air, looking in dead space shafts using gang planks to try and access a valve hoping its the right one and usually it wasn't it. Many times we'd put a bucket in the ceiling tied with wire to catch the drip so they could use the black jack table during the day because we wouldn't have time to drain the system and repair.
> ...


Fully agreed !


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

ill just add or it should have been first..safety...I dont want to get flooded and electrocuted if a ton of water unexpectedly hits me, nor if im opening a gas line I want gas flowing out and going boom...like I said before I personally want eyes on the valve and a hand..


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

“Don’t worry, I already shut the water off....”


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

89plumbum said:


> “Don’t worry, I already shut the water off....”
> https://youtu.be/YzZS8CH2jYI


Oh no the video was deleted!


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Ok found it...Maybe these will work for everyone.


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## JohnnieSqueeze (Mar 23, 2016)

GAN said:


> There should be a set of valves in the ceiling, wall, etc. to shut off areas without interfering with the whole building. Most codes require it.
> 
> Look for obvious panels.




question is, is it really readily accessible if you have to open 99 of them to find the one? Or should the right panel be labeled? Ive seen the plumber or electrician put label maker notes on critical panels in medical buildings 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

they just need a bigger floor drain in that bathroom....:vs_lol::vs_lol::vs_lol:


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> they just need a bigger floor drain in that bathroom....:vs_lol::vs_lol::vs_lol:


I mean... why even spend the money on the porcelain at that point, right? 

:vs_laugh:


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

Tango said:


> Ok found it...Maybe these will work for everyone.



Hahahahaha that’s awesome!!

I got a call for one of my Tim Horton locations (Yonge/Finch) a few years back, around 1am. Apparently someone had tried to remove/steal the flushometer from the woman’s washroom, but she/they didn’t shut the valve before she/they tried to unthread the nut! Of course nobody knew enough to shut off the main, When I got there 30 mons later, was water flowing out of the front doors!


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)




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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

@ShtRnsdownhill

Wow, awesome! I could put that on my leak page on the website!


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