# Uponor PEX Red Flag alert



## breplum (Mar 21, 2009)

Well, I’ve been an Uponor fan boy and own the tools and carry the training certificate.
But yesterday, a colleague got a call for some water leaking issues at a nine year old house and pulled out a number of leaking Uponor tube sections And they are scary bad.
We are helping the homeowner pursue warranty RMA claims and the damage pieces are being sent to the Uponor labs.
But, I have to say, in the absence of anything abnormal at the house, this is red flag warning time.
From what I can see so far there is absolutely nothing wrong with the installation except on the return re-circ return loop pipe, Because it’s a Navien internal pump tankless, it should’ve been three-quarter return loop size and not half inch but that is not the issue because it’s not erosion that is the problem. The splits in the pipe are at the fitting joints and the fittings all look to be Uponor’s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

breplum said:


> Well, I’ve been an Uponor fan boy and own the tools and carry the training certificate.
> But yesterday, a colleague got a call for some water leaking issues at a nine year old house and pulled out a number of leaking Uponor tube sections And they are scary bad.
> We are helping the homeowner pursue warranty RMA claims and the damage pieces are being sent to the Uponor labs.
> But, I have to say, in the absence of anything abnormal at the house, this is red flag warning time.
> ...


Dammmmm,this is bad,I will stick to my zurn pex and black crimp rings


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

It ain’t just the red. I’ve got a roll of the white sitting at my shop that I replaced. 1/2” hot. Same vintage as yours. Had pinholes. Looks about the same as yours.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

We all know hot water wears out the plumbing system a lot sooner than cold. If it's super heated then it's even worse.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

That is probably going to be caused by aggressive water.... either their is a high chlorine level in
the water or what ever other nasty chemicals they are throwing in the public water system... 
I guess that they have a water softener....??. 

I also use the clear wirsbo pex stuff and have not had an issue as of yet....
Their has been a real stink about all pexes over the years due to the fact
the USA throws a lot of chemicals into the city water systems and most pexes
have not really been tested properly... basically it has not withstood the test of time
and most homes are the test tube babies for this stuff...

They claim it works great in France but the big issue was 
france does not have the same stuff in their water. 

I hope to be retired and dead
before we have another grey polybutiline disaster like back in the 80s..


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> We all know hot water wears out the plumbing system a lot sooner than cold. If it's super heated then it's even worse.





Master Mark said:


> That is probably going to be caused by aggressive water.... either their is a high chlorine level in
> the water or what ever other nasty chemicals they are throwing in the public water system...
> ....................




*I have never seen or heard of anything like these issues with Viega Pex or the black standard PE* we use for water lines from well heads or city taps, even on recirc lines or with high amounts of chlorine.

The only "issue" I have seen is the outer layer on Fostapex turning a bit dark or slipping when used with boiler heat lines. Of course that outer layer is superfluous to it's function, serving only to hold the aluminum skin on.

My guess is that when they modify the uponor/wirsbo pex to be* more flexible it makes it weaker.*


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

breplum said:


> Well, I’ve been an Uponor fan boy and own the tools and carry the training certificate.
> But yesterday, a colleague got a call for some water leaking issues at a nine year old house and pulled out a number of leaking Uponor tube sections And they are scary bad.
> We are helping the homeowner pursue warranty RMA claims and the damage pieces are being sent to the Uponor labs.
> But, I have to say, in the absence of anything abnormal at the house, this is red flag warning time.
> ...


First picture was a soldered adapter so maybe flux issue. I can’t tell what the second joint is. Pex could’ve been in the sun too long or water quality issues. I’m definitely interested in what the lab comes back with because Uponor is the only brand I install.


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

Debo22 said:


> First picture was a soldered adapter so maybe flux issue. I can’t tell what the second joint is. Pex could’ve been in the sun too long or water quality issues. I’m definitely interested in what the lab comes back with because Uponor is the only brand I install.


that’s what I was thinking, the joint wasn’t wiped clean after soldering or maybe the fitting was still hot when the Uponor was fitted..


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> *I have never seen or heard of anything like these issues with Viega Pex or the black standard PE* we use for water lines from well heads or city taps, even on recirc lines or with high amounts of chlorine.
> 
> The only "issue" I have seen is the outer layer on Fostapex turning a bit dark or slipping when used with boiler heat lines. Of course that outer layer is superfluous to it's function, serving only to hold the aluminum skin on.
> 
> My guess is that when they modify the uponor/wirsbo pex to be* more flexible it makes it weaker.*



You are probably right about all this, but lets just wait another 15 -25 years and see what transpires..
I remember in 1998 or so when they finally allowed pex in california and the copper industry went nuts about it
The copper industry was protecting their own interests and throwing up red flags about issues with its life span..

I think Wirsbo Pex is great stuff but Odds are that it will not outlast type L copper...
but its good enough


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> You are probably right about all this, but lets just wait another 15 -25 years and see what transpires..
> ..............


They've been using Viega in europe/germany for decades. Regular PE lines have been used since the 80's and Viega seems extremely similar, if not the same.

The only issues we see with the black PE is when it splits from being crushed underground.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> That is probably going to be caused by aggressive water.... either their is a high chlorine level in
> the water or what ever other nasty chemicals they are throwing in the public water system...
> I guess that they have a water softener....??.
> 
> ...


What about out in Vegas mark???they been using pex e out there in high rises for 50 yrs now and they gots the cancer in their water like we do,I think it's a bad batch of pex from the factory


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> What about out in Vegas mark???they been using pex e out there in high rises for 50 yrs now and they gots the cancer in their water like we do,I think it's a bad batch of pex from the factory


I dont know what to tell you....... but I looked up this link and it was an interesting read from 2012....

Interesting articles about pex...... and when it started to get used 






Tech Topic: PEX


Cross-Linked Polyethylene has become one of the most familiar piping materials in the plumbing industry.




www.pmmag.com




.









The History of PEX Piping


In the 1950's, the economy was booming and there was a need for a more reliable and easily installable type of piping alternative to metal. Nowadays, PEX has developed into one of the most durable and lost lasting options on the market.



www.repipenow.com


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## breplum (Mar 21, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> That is probably going to be caused by aggressive water.... either their is a high chlorine level in
> the water or what ever other nasty chemicals they are throwing in the public water system...
> I guess that they have a water softener....??.
> 
> ...


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

What we are running into in the mid west is the mixtures of chemicals are breaking down the
water softerners at an extremely fast rate... The chloromines seem to tear up that plastic resin
bead they use to filter the water and if you are near a spot they inject this stuff into the water system
you get a high dose of it... 

We used to get 20 years out of a common softener but now I have had to change out some of them
as young as 5 years old...(if they are in hot spots) These were top end brands. 

Plastic is plastic, maybe made differently, but still over time, stuff like this has to have an effect on it.
They were concerned about this issue and fought over this and debated about it long ago
in the California senate...

Whirlpool water heaters almost got a state wide recall done to them in califorina back around 2005
but somehow after they lawyered up all their troubles went away... I wonder how much money they 
had to donate to Pelosi or the Clinton foundation???

When they debated passing the use of pex pipe in California I am sure they both got greased again...


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## Michael Young (May 12, 2021)

breplum said:


> Well, I’ve been an Uponor fan boy and own the tools and carry the training certificate.
> But yesterday, a colleague got a call for some water leaking issues at a nine year old house and pulled out a number of leaking Uponor tube sections And they are scary bad.
> We are helping the homeowner pursue warranty RMA claims and the damage pieces are being sent to the Uponor labs.
> But, I have to say, in the absence of anything abnormal at the house, this is red flag warning time.
> ...


Any idea what caused it to split? did the pipe get left out in the sun?


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Michael Young said:


> Any idea what caused it to split? did the pipe get left out in the sun?


They're sending samples to a lab to find out. My guess is too many heat-cool cycles.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> They're sending samples to a lab to find out. My guess is too many heat-cool cycles.


I predict that someday, somewhere this is the scenario that is going to go down..... its going to be something like happened in flint michigan
Just like in Flint Michican, some real old guy is going to retire or get fired for political reasons from their job running the municipal water supply for their city--region. for the last 50 years.....this experienced person had the system fine tuned and humming along perfectly ...

The new people that come in to run the system will probably be political appointees who have no real understanding or experience as
chemical engineers to know what they are dealing with...... exactly just like what happened in flint michigan and they will be too arrogant to
ask for advice from the old timers who they probably ran out of town on a rail........

Thinking that they are going to save money just like they thought they were doing in flint... 
someone will add or change the chemicals they are throwing into the water supply for a city or region
with no real understanding of the potential disaster they might incur...

and then all of a sudden the crap will hit the fan with pex melting and splitting everywhere.

its just going to be a matter of time...... and then you just blame the Governor of the state.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> I predict that someday, somewhere this is the scenario that is going to go down..... its going to be something like happened in flint michigan
> .................
> and then all of a sudden the crap will hit the fan with pex melting and splitting everywhere.
> ..................


I disagree. Pex piping is much more widespread than lead piping at this point, and has been exposed to many different types of water quality without widespread issues. Also, we have seen these sorts of issues reported here on the forum with uponor/wirsbo pex on well water that tested fine*.

And let's be clear, so far the only pex pipe that appears to fail from heat/water quality reported here have been uponor/wirsbo.*

The other post that sticks out in my mind was clearly not a widespread issue. It was uponor in an attic and some of it was yellow and splitting while other bits were fine. We decided it was either some of it was left in the sun or that some of it was made wrong. That's not what I am worried about though. Uponor pex is made differently than the other brands so it can be stretched. I think that right there is the major issue which will cause it to fail much sooner than the other brands. I don't think all types of pex will suffer the same failure modes, certainly not as quickly.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> I disagree. Pex piping is much more widespread than lead piping at this point, and has been exposed to many different types of water quality without widespread issues. Also, we have seen these sorts of issues reported here on the forum with uponor/wirsbo pex on well water that tested fine*.
> 
> And let's be clear, so far the only pex pipe that appears to fail from heat/water quality reported here have been uponor/wirsbo.*
> 
> The other post that sticks out in my mind was clearly not a widespread issue. It was uponor in an attic and some of it was yellow and splitting while other bits were fine. We decided it was either some of it was left in the sun or that some of it was made wrong. That's not what I am worried about though. Uponor pex is made differently than the other brands so it can be stretched. I think that right there is the major issue which will cause it to fail much sooner than the other brands. I don't think all types of pex will suffer the same failure modes, certainly not as quickly.



Wirsbo pex is basically what they have been using in Europe for a long time... many other pexes have not been around
as long...many other brands of pexes have gone out of business too.....

I always thought this brand was the best because of its durability and the fact i have seen a few homes freeze solid
plumbed with this pipe only to see it recover and not break anywhere except the copper lines going to the water heater...
I was very impressed.....

I am interested in hearing what they find out if they test the water in the home and what other factors
come into play....

wait for it, wait for it.... somewhere in the USA the crap will hit the fan....


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## Fred Bagadonutz (Nov 27, 2011)

breplum said:


> Well, I’ve been an Uponor fan boy and own the tools and carry the training certificate.
> But yesterday, a colleague got a call for some water leaking issues at a nine year old house and pulled out a number of leaking Uponor tube sections And they are scary bad.
> We are helping the homeowner pursue warranty RMA claims and the damage pieces are being sent to the Uponor labs.
> But, I have to say, in the absence of anything abnormal at the house, this is red flag warning time.
> ...


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

@Fred Bagadonutz

You'll have to update your intro, take a look at the 2nd link for guidance

Your intro page :









I guess I was here before


Hey all. Went to register here today , and I guess I had signed-up a couple of years ago . I am a one man band in Northern NH. :jester: Glad this site is here. See you around. FB




www.plumbingzone.com













GUIDELINES TO POST AN INTRODUCTION


In order to join this community you need to demonstrate you are a professional in the trades outlined in the rules. We ask you to post an introduction. Are you an employee, apprentice, journeyman, business owner? Tell us if you had to go to trade school. How long? How many hours or...




www.plumbingzone.com


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## Fred Bagadonutz (Nov 27, 2011)

Check this out. Had a 60 psi air test on uponor water lines for days. Slowly dropping , couldn't find leak. Came back the 4th day had zero psi. Found this..... 
5 new photos by Matt Dumas


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## Fred Bagadonutz (Nov 27, 2011)

Tango said:


> @Fred Bagadonutz
> 
> You'll have to update your intro, take a look at the 2nd link for guidance
> 
> ...


Don't know what to do. I think I just posted. Can you verify. Thank you.


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## Fred Bagadonutz (Nov 27, 2011)

Fred Bagadonutz said:


> Check this out. Had a 60 psi air test on uponor water lines for days. Slowly dropping , couldn't find leak. Came back the 4th day had zero psi. Found this.....
> 5 new photos by Matt Dumas


T


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## Fred Bagadonutz (Nov 27, 2011)

Fred Bagadonutz said:


> T



Did that link work?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Fred Bagadonutz said:


> Check this out. Had a 60 psi air test on uponor water lines for days. Slowly dropping , couldn't find leak. Came back the 4th day had zero psi. Found this.....
> 5 new photos by Matt Dumas


Well, that is just an improper coupling joint... just was not put together completely
Cant blame the wirsbo pex for that mistake... 

I just re-piped this basement last week without any issues...it was a hot mess....
I did have to take a heat gun to one fitting in that 6 port manifold to get 
it to set up... 

Dont give me any crap about the drain lines.. that was not part of the bid....


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> Dont give me any crap about the drain lines.. that was not part of the bid....


So you just did them as cheap as you could? For shame.....


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> So you just did them as cheap as you could? For shame.....



No shame in the game here... did as good and tight as I could with what I had to work with.
This sort of gave me a headache figuring out the best way to wrangle all those lines together
the 6 port mainfolds work very well.... 

This was a back to back double unit with a full basement
underneath.. Both tubs back to back, lavs and toilets too... Existing Laundry downstairs for the owner
and a new drain and laundry for the renter upstairs in a closet .... Basically He did not want the tenant down
in the shared basement any longer... 

I went and bought a new milwaulkee expander tool because my old one seemed
to be getting out of sync... Had one small drip that the heat gun fixed


The drain lines were rough and all put together with no hubs , 
and a 4 inch cross to both bathrooms had nno-hubs on them
but that is not the mission I was there for....

.Now if you want to be
a boy scout and re-do the whole house that is your choice.. 
I was not going there.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> No shame in the game here... did as good and tight as I could with what I had to work with.
> ........................
> 
> .Now if you want to be
> ...


Relax, I was making a joke and ascribing the drain work to you. The waterlines look good


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> Relax, I was making a joke and ascribing the drain work to you. The waterlines look good



Oh, dont worry...I am relaxed, 
just typing cause I am lonely.. bored,,, .looking for something to do while drinking
the morning coffe

.


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## Michael Young (May 12, 2021)

Master Mark said:


> Well, that is just an improper coupling joint... just was not put together completely
> Cant blame the wirsbo pex for that mistake...
> 
> I just re-piped this basement last week without any issues...it was a hot mess....
> ...



Kinda disappointing Mark. We were all kinda looking forward to calling you out on the DWV.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Michael Young said:


> Kinda disappointing Mark. We were all kinda looking forward to calling you out on the DWV.



gee, gosh. I hope you dont think I am showing off or something...
its just another day in the field for me.... and rarely do I get to 
totally re-pipe something in wirsbo pex... 

You really cant make that stuff look anywhere as nice looking as a copper install


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> Well, that is just an improper coupling joint... just was not put together completely
> Cant blame the wirsbo pex for that mistake...
> 
> I just re-piped this basement last week without any issues...it was a hot mess....
> ...


Why do you use clear pex and not the red/blue? The clear pex seems to get discolored over time


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Debo22 said:


> Why do you use clear pex and not the red/blue? The clear pex seems to get discolored over time


I guess I am just lazy... Dont care to carry blue and red with me everywhere.....
I have a 300 foot roll of the 1/2 clear stuff and it is used for everything including running
drain lines for water softeners very long distances... . Of course if I carried both
the day would come I need red and only have blue on the truck... 

One color fits all
I have seen the clear stuff turn kind of grey in older homes but the customer really 
only cares about what quality picture his big screen TV has....while watching Housewives of Atlanta

The red and blue stuff would work really great in a slab rough inn situation....
It would certainly keep you from mixing up the manifolds.....
but we dont get into that kind of work any longer...

I see slab rough inns all the time around here with blue and red pex.... nothing is ever
protected under ground and that makes me wonder how long it will take before the hot pex lines
start to grind away and leak.....??? No one cares ......

When I was about 25, I used to insulate all the underground pipes on slab roughs with aramaflex even
though it cost maybe another 75 bucks per house...... I have never heard a peep out of any of the hundreds we
did back then and have never had to go back out and make repairs


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> Well, that is just an improper coupling joint... just was not put together completely
> Cant blame the wirsbo pex for that mistake...
> 
> I just re-piped this basement last week without any issues...it was a hot mess....
> ...


Dang mark,that looks like you rared back and just threw it up there lololololol


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> gee, gosh. I hope you dont think I am showing off or something...
> its just another day in the field for me.... and rarely do I get to
> totally re-pipe something in wirsbo pex...
> 
> You really cant make that stuff look anywhere as nice looking as a copper install


My red and blue zurn pex would have looked much better lolololololo


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> Dang mark,that looks like you rared back and just threw it up there lololololol


Actually we were there 2 days....and it took half the day cutting out all the junk in the 
way and hauling it off and the other half standing on a ladder straining my neck figuring out
how the best way was going to look good... Standing on a ladder for 2 days in a row kind of killed my
legs for a few days afterwards.. had to go to the chiropractor after this..
.. We charged him pretty high $$ for the 2 full days of fun


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> Actually we were there 2 days....and it took half the day cutting out all the junk in the
> way and hauling it off and the other half standing on a ladder straining my neck figuring out
> how the best way was going to look good... Standing on a ladder for 2 days in a row kind of killed my
> legs for a few days afterwards.. had to go to the chiropractor after this..
> .. We charged him pretty high $$ for the 2 full days of fun


Im just messing with ya,it's not bad at all,I have been on and done many jobs like this and they always turn into more than you expect them to,always,did you install new stops and supply lines to the faucets??did you go all way up to the tub faucet???


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> Actually we were there 2 days....and it took half the day cutting out all the junk in the
> way and hauling it off and the other half standing on a ladder straining my neck figuring out
> how the best way was going to look good... Standing on a ladder for 2 days in a row kind of killed my
> legs for a few days afterwards.. had to go to the chiropractor after this..
> .. We charged him pretty high $$ for the 2 full days of fun


Just curious what's a job like this go for in Indy???


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> Just curious what's a job like this go for in Indy???


we installed a 50 gal gas heater,,, ran a laundry outlets and did the pex and it was 6400

probably too cheap... he did not complain


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> Standing on a ladder for 2 days in a row kind of killed my
> legs for a few days afterwards.. had to go to the chiropractor after this..


I did 20 years in a step ladder!  🤷‍♂️ Yeah no fun.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> Actually we were there 2 days....and it took half the day cutting out all the junk in the
> way and hauling it off and the other half standing on a ladder straining my neck figuring out
> how the best way was going to look good... Standing on a ladder for 2 days in a row kind of killed my
> legs for a few days afterwards.. had to go to the chiropractor after this..
> .. We charged him pretty high $$ for the 2 full days of fun


Should of bought one of these and billed it the job. I was doing a job once and the GC had one on site, it makes it so much easier than working on a ladder. Just grab the floor joists and pull yourself to the next location with all the supplies on the platform.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

No matter what Ya just can't beat copper, the true craftsman go to. Let the rants begin.

Unless like an adjoining town "Collinsville Il." where they hit a good slug of chlorine and for years later only the bottom of long runs of type "M" copper with mainly softened water pin holes developed. So much so the insurance companies would not cover future claims unless bad sections where replaced with at least type L of plastic. The town finally would not allow type M for any type installation.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

GAN said:


> ........... type "M" copper with mainly softened water pin holes developed............


L is for potable and M is for heating. That's why L is blue and M is red. Everyone in the trades(around here) knows that greedy contractors are the only ones specing M for potable.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

skoronesa said:


> L is for potable and M is for heating. That's why L is blue and M is red. Everyone in the trades(around here) knows that greedy contractors are the only ones specing M for potable.


Not in Illinois. M is approved for potable usage. It is also listed at Mueller and in engineering as approved for potable.

https://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/07700890ZZ9996aaR.html

Plumbing Copper Tube | Mueller Streamline Co.

ASTM B88 - Seamless Copper Water Tubes - Dimensions


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## Michael Young (May 12, 2021)

Master Mark said:


> we installed a 50 gal gas heater,,, ran a laundry outlets and did the pex and it was 6400
> 
> probably too cheap... he did not complain


Damn. That's good money. In my region we'd have a hard time selling that job for half of what you charged.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Debo22 said:


> Should of bought one of these and billed it the job. I was doing a job once and the GC had one on site, it makes it so much easier than working on a ladder. Just grab the floor joists and pull yourself to the next location with all the supplies on the platform.
> View attachment 129725


That platform would not have worked...I could almost touch the rafters, so I was standing on a 4 fot ladder on the first step up...
It was like doing push ups on a stairmaster for 2 days and I did pay for it ... 
My legs were trashed for the weekend ... I finally went out and bought
some vitamin E tabs and beta carotene and I have been superdosing
on the stuff to bring me back to normal... 
Normal?? that is a relative term I guess... what is normal for 
someone who crawls around in **** all the time...???. ... 






Michael Young said:


> Damn. That's good money. In my region we'd have a hard time selling that job for half of what you charged.


I bid this job 2 years ago and thought I would never hear back from him.... then one day this spring--- bang.....
I figure he got prices from Ben F or some other places in town that would not even install a 50 gallon gas 
water heater for less than 2k... I deducted 150 bucks because he wanted the copper and steel pipe and 
would throw it all away for us--- that saved me half a day in just cleaning up the mess in the yard..... 
Ben and others are installing 50 gallon power vents for 3k right now so whatever
I charge must seem dog dirt cheap


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> L is for potable and M is for heating. That's why L is blue and M is red. Everyone in the trades(around here) knows that greedy contractors are the only ones specing M for potable.



We used type m copper in thousands of new homes for decades here in indiana... it was no big deal at all... L was mostly used for commercial jobs...
Most type M has lasted for us since the early 60s without too many pin holes to speak of.... The L is a far better product but the work we
were doing was production homes and section 8 tract homes--- it was good enough to stand the test of time I suppose......

Now the big issue will be will Pex last the same length of time... 1960 to now in 2021 is 60+ years.... We will probably all be dead
before the results are known... 

and again just like Type M copper its good enough-----


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> L is for potable and M is for heating. That's why L is blue and M is red. Everyone in the trades(around here) knows that greedy contractors are the only ones specing M for potable.


Here only M in houses and only L on commercial. 

M is Pretty good actually, houses with 80 year old M and still good for who knows how long. We only need to provide 1 year guarantee, after that it's the manufacturer's problem.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> we installed a 50 gal gas heater,,, ran a laundry outlets and did the pex and it was 6400
> 
> probably too cheap... he did not complain


Down here in ky that’s a good price,nice work


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

GAN said:


> Not in Illinois. M is approved for potable usage. It is also listed at Mueller and in engineering as approved for potable.
> 
> https://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/07700890ZZ9996aaR.html
> 
> ...


Yes correct


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Michael Young said:


> Damn. That's good money. In my region we'd have a hard time selling that job for half of what you charged.


Agree,same here in ky


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> That platform would not have worked...I could almost touch the rafters, so I was standing on a 4 fot ladder on the first step up...
> It was like doing push ups on a stairmaster for 2 days and I did pay for it ...
> My legs were trashed for the weekend ... I finally went out and bought
> some vitamin E tabs and beta carotene and I have been superdosing
> ...


As long as you make money mark it don’t matter what you charge,as long as you make money


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> *As long as you make money *mark it don’t matter what you charge,as long as you make money


You know , That is what my father used to say...he said as long as you made "wages" for the day...its better than nothing...
Wages is a break even way of thinking about it.... my dad was a child of the depression
and at one time he actually bartered for a couple of chickens for plumbing work.... 
My father never really got over those early scars... he worked his ass off before I was born and also
when I was a child.... and I suppose it rubbed off on me to a point..... this story is for another day....

Also, our area is booming compared to rural areas even 75 miles out of town..... you get 
down to Kentucky and its a whole different game....

I planned this job out out fairly well.... the first day we installed the laundry room outlets and ran
the drain and dryer venting... stubbed down the water lines into the basement....also I forgot we
changed out his back to back tub drains included in the bid.... drilled all the holes needed for
day 2 and hauled down the heater into the basement....

Day 2 installed the heater and cut out the junk lines which took longer than I thought it would
I ran the pex lines fairly quickly and We got out of there by 5.30 which is a long day for me..

.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> You know , That is what my father used to say...he said as long as you made "wages" for the day...its better than nothing...
> Wages is a break even way of thinking about it.... my dad was a child of the depression
> and at one time he actually bartered for a couple of chickens for plumbing work....
> My father never really got over those early scars... he worked his ass off before I was born and also
> ...


He was a smart man,I know of no rich plumbers and we all know we ain't gettin rich doing this kind of work,just make a decent living then we get planted


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

sparky said:


> He was a smart man,I know of no rich plumbers and we all know we ain't gettin rich doing this kind of work,just make a decent living then we get planted


I don't partake that mindset at all.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Tango said:


> I don't partake that mindset at all.


Are you rich??did plumbing work make you rich?? No on both questions,only way to get rich is for someone to die and leave it to you,hit the lottery,or do something illega,will not get rich doing blue collar type work


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> Are you rich??did plumbing work make you rich?? No on both questions,only way to get rich is for someone to die and leave it to you,hit the lottery,or do something illega,will not get rich doing blue collar type work





sparky said:


> He was a smart man,I know of no rich plumbers and we all know we ain't gettin rich doing this kind of work,just make a decent living then we get planted


I know of a lot of ultra rich plumbers who make a pretty good living doing this....and many have retired and never looked back
I think its all a mindset and motivation that makes the money come in or not...
Maybe its got a lot to do with the economic conditions of the area that you live in to.... I always remember when 
I was a kid how so many construction workers that worked along side my dad were mostly from down in Kentucky....
Their was just no work down there to do in the 60s... so they came up north to Indy.. 

.
I dont consider myself rich but the house is paid off and I am turning down work that 
I dont feel like doing which makes me feel fairly successful..
I dont plan on leaving my kids just some worn out shovels either... 
and they are not gonna pass the hat at my funeral to bury me

*You are not in business to break even...* and you cannot look at this as exercise or something to do today....
If I just wanted exercise and break even , I would go down to the spa and work out and watch at all the hot chicks in yoga 
pants and maybe grade their camel toes for perkiness, tightness and form... thats a far better passtime... 

I just raised my prices a few weeks ago and I got a call from someone tonight that was referred to me from some other rich plumber and they wanted a 
price on a 50 gallon power vented unit asap.... If they could wait till friday it would have been 2100.,if he needed it done tomorrow
it would be 2450... Then he turned around and told me the plumber who referred me told them 1700. but he was out 3 weeks.
I sort of thought he was hosing me... so I gave him the names and numbers of a few other plumbers to call...and said good luck...

I called the plumber who referred me cause I thought this guy might call him and ream him out ..... It Turns out he was hosing me and I 
was over his price by 175.....that is how it goes.... 

I plan on going on vacation at the end of the week and dont need a log jam of calls to fall on Friday .
.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

sparky said:


> Are you rich??did plumbing work make you rich?? No on both questions,only way to get rich is for someone to die and leave it to you,hit the lottery,or do something illega,will not get rich doing blue collar type work


Rich is relative

There's a few "rich" plumbers on this forum that post regularly. And many more that no longer post.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> Rich is relative
> 
> There's a few "rich" plumbers on this forum that post regularly. And many more that no longer post.


Being your own boss is a good thing, and it does not matter if you are rich or poor because
their are a whole lot worse things you could live through... Be grateful for your freedom to 
work at whatever pace you want to...

The Work will set you free... and if you are happy with your job that is really all that matters
. 
I have worked for some total assho/es and had some pretty crummy souls to deal with over the years...
.
If you have ever had to work for some alcoholic dickhead, dealing with total incompetence 
and watching them drink their company down the drain that was the low water mark for me....
-----

those kind of depressing experiences makes where you are at right now all the sweeter....




.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> Being your own boss is a good thing, and it does not matter if you are rich or poor because
> their are a whole lot worse things you could live through... Be grateful for your freedom to
> work at whatever pace you want to...
> 
> ...


Yes exactly! I remember all those black clouds you speak of. Now I have so much of catching up to do in the happiness department and I'm having a blast. Lot's of dirty jobs, weekly insults and nasty comment from people but in the evening I have something to look forward to.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Tango said:


> Rich is relative
> 
> There's a few "rich" plumbers on this forum that post regularly. And many more that no longer post.


I don't believe it,they did not get rich by plumbing alone,somebody died and left it to them or they married into it,period,you are not gonna get rich by doing plumbing work.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> Being your own boss is a good thing, and it does not matter if you are rich or poor because
> their are a whole lot worse things you could live through... Be grateful for your freedom to
> work at whatever pace you want to...
> 
> ...


I thought you took the company over from your dad???I thought you worked for your dad your entire career until he gave you the business???if a person has a already established business to take over you can make money from day one but when you start your own business from scratch you don't make any profit for a few yrs starting out plus you have to establish a customer base/contractors to work for


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> I thought you took the company over from your dad???I thought you worked for your dad your entire career until he gave you the business???if a person has a already established business to take over you can make money from day one but when you start your own business from scratch you don't make any profit for a few yrs starting out plus you have to establish a customer base/contractors to work for



Yes its a family owned business..... I have been running it since about 86 ...worked out in colorado from 82-85
but the bottom fell out due to the oil industry and it was not in the cards to stay out there with parents getting older and ill back here...

Dads plumbing idea and path was new construction work and he seemed to just love to get boned by the contractors every year..
Watching this happen over and over was dis-heartening....he took some huge, massive losses back in the 70s....
We basically did the same thing because we had builders to work for, but the best ones all died off or went under due to divorce.
We did not know any better and just ran things like always , but eventually I realized that about 95% of all
contractors are skum and I did not want to cater to them any longer.........

I had enough of this insanity and simply said NO to all opportunities to follow down that same path..
I have said before that if you just say NO to ALL contractors and builders, you will be right 8 out of 10 times... and those are
very good odds--- the secret is staying the course and not getting tempted to fall back into that rat race and get screwed good.......
So, I Have been building up only the service side of this business since 86

Being a family business, I did have to allow my brother -in-law to beat his head against a wall for a few years with some construction
work and eventually he lost his ass enough times and had to work hard to do it.
I quietly sat back and watched him work his ass off and did not lift a finger to help ,
I just kept running the service side of the business and basically keeping the company afloat.....
Eventually he could see where the ---- easy,---- gravy money --- was coming from and finally threw in the towell.

The service work is getting to be too much to deal with, I got great google reviews
so I am happy I went cold turkey on the skumbag contractors long ago.....

its complicated when you have family to deal with.....


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> Yes its a family owned business..... I have been running it since about 86 ...worked out in colorado from 82-85
> but the bottom fell out due to the oil industry and it was not in the cards to stay out there with parents getting older and ill back here...
> 
> Dads plumbing idea and path was new construction work and he seemed to just love to get boned by the contractors every few years.
> ...


Agreeee


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## Paulie B (Oct 22, 2011)

My only issues I had with PEX were the brass fitting we used when we first started converting from copper. Most of my work is on well water and any home with the PH even slightly off of 7 just destroyed those fittings. Lucky for me it happened so fast we were able to switch to the polimer fittings and have not had a single issue since. Plus we only use the SS cinch clamp system. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Paulie B said:


> ............Plus we only use the SS cinch clamp system.
> ..........


I don't like Oetiker clips. At least they're easy to remove.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> I don't like Oetiker clips. At least they're easy to remove.


gree with you ski,I have fixed a few leaks on the cinch rings,with the copper rings it either holds and is good or it leaks,keep the crisper calibrated and they no problems with copper rings


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

sparky said:


> gree with you ski,I have fixed a few leaks on the cinch rings,with the copper rings it either holds and is good or it leaks,keep the crisper calibrated and they no problems with copper rings


Sparky, I think you might have a drinking problem.


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## breplum (Mar 21, 2009)

ALERT! Here is the UPDATE, just received from Uponor, based on their lab results:
"Our lab confirmed that the issue is related to a manufacturing component. Once we receive your leak repair expenses we will review them and provide resolution to your claim. "


Definitely, then, Uponor has had a problem with this batch. 

I am recommending that the homeowner submit a full house repipe quote.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

breplum said:


> ALERT! Here is the UPDATE, just received from Uponor, based on their lab results:
> "Our lab confirmed that the issue is related to a manufacturing component. Once we receive your leak repair expenses we will review them and provide resolution to your claim. "
> 
> 
> ...


They won’t do that,all they do is replace the fittings that are bad And maybe a few sections of pipe,I highly doubt they will pay for whole house repipes


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

sparky said:


> They won’t do that,all they do is replace the fittings that are bad And maybe a few sections of pipe,I highly doubt they will pay for whole house repipes


You have to get a letter from a lawyer.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

skoronesa said:


> You have to get a letter from a lawyer.


No need. The HO just needs to make some noise with his/her insurance carrier. If there is anything insurance companies are good at, it's passing the buck. Along with the banks, the insurance companies write the rules.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Plumbus said:


> No need. The HO just needs to make some noise with his/her insurance carrier. If there is anything insurance companies are good at, it's passing the buck. Along with the banks, the insurance companies write the rules.


Right, they will have a lawyer send a letter. He needs to complain to his Homeowner's so they will have their lawyer send a letter. How is that not what I said?


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> You have to get a letter from a lawyer.


Won't do any good,it will be simiiar to the gray polybutylene disaster that people got stuck with yrs ago,I still run across people today that are still having problems with this crap and company and insurance companies did nothing


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## DogGod (Jul 7, 2021)

Good morning folks. Just curious about this post because I have been installing pex-a for some time now. 

How old was that piping that split? Well or city water? Have you performed a water quality test? Is the manufacturer simply claiming it was one batch or a bigger overall issue?

Sorry bout all the questions but this post intrigues me. 

DG


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## DogGod (Jul 7, 2021)

sparky said:


> Won't do any good,it will be simiiar to the gray polybutylene disaster that people got stuck with yrs ago,I still run across people today that are still having problems with this crap and company and insurance companies did nothing


I will politely disagree with this statement of Quest pipe / gray poly. There were as far as I know Two settlements that allowed anyone with quest piping to receive funds to replace. Now whether or not the current homeowner at the time was even aware of the lawsuit and settlement or maybe they just took the money and never repiped the home. I cannot feel sympathy for people who own homes with quest. They are informed upon purchasing. 

As for this day of age insurance companies will pay to repipe the home after multiple expensive floods occur. The overall cost of the flood claims have to out weigh the replacement fee. They are reactive rather than proactive and it's just business.

Being ahead of the curve with pex-a if they are following a similar road will be extremely beneficial.

I have used this product in heated flooring to boiler systems, whole home repipes, hell I have even buried it for yard hydrants. Pointless though to claim it can swell to double its midsize and then shrink back with memory foam tech if the stuff starts to split after a few years.

I am curious if this is a water quality issue or a product glitch, or a larger systemic problem


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## plumbstar (May 4, 2018)

Seen this exact thing many times. Installation appears correct but impossible to know if correct expander was used


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## breplum (Mar 21, 2009)

FINAL OUTCOME of original UPONOR PEX failures at this 9 year old luxury home:
UPONOR is paying for complete repipe of all the RED (hot water) Uponor PEX in the entire house including wall opening and finishing. And I'm even being sent a check for consultation/helping out, which I was not going to ask for anything if there was no settlement.
I don't have any more granular details of the deal.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

breplum said:


> FINAL OUTCOME of original UPONOR PEX failures at this 9 year old luxury home:
> UPONOR is paying for complete repipe of all the RED (hot water) Uponor PEX in the entire house including wall opening and finishing. And I'm even being sent a check for consultation/helping out, which I was not going to ask for anything if there was no settlement.
> I don't have any more granular details of the deal.


Very good,I'm shocked they admitted a mistake on their end


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

sparky said:


> Very good,I'm shocked they admitted a mistake on their end


They're only doing it to cover their azzez from liability down the road. It's always about money when it comes to corporations.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> They're only doing it to cover their azzez from liability down the road. It's always about money when it comes to corporations.


Yes,what sko said


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