# Slow draining tub



## Eddy k (Jan 30, 2015)

Was asked to double check insulation on water lines in crawl space, noticed this. Owner's never noticed a problem with tub. Now that I repaired they said wow did not know it could drain that fast.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Lead drains are a bit of a rarity around here, surprisingly. I've always removed them completely, never hub'd onto them.

That's a nice setup they had going there!


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## Eddy k (Jan 30, 2015)

A lot of houses in Albuquerque are full of lead.


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Question since I've never dealt with lead except for a toilet flange. How did you keep the lead that you tied the pvc onto from collapsing and leaking? Some kind of stiffener like copper or pvc inside the lead before you clamped it down?


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## A Good Plumber (Jun 18, 2008)

Why did you flat vent it, with the 2 90's below the overflow rim of the fixture, when you could have easily installed the san tee directly under the vertical vent riser?
Around here, flat venting is not allowed until you are 6" above the overflow rim of the highest fixture to which the vent is connected.

I'm sure it works better than before though.


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

It looks like that's not the vent, but the piping for the overflow itself. I originally wondered why he didn'tput the tee under the overflow and have a shorter drain arm, but then realized the lead tie in location probably made that the only way possible since he had to use a street tee to get it to have fall.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Why not get the caulking ferrule out of the cast iron hub and caulk a pvc caulking sleeve or cut the hub off and use a proper clamp. No offense but looks kind of a like a homeownerish repair. Also why no clean outs ?? Your a plumber right ??


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

2" street tee ,,, cool


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

plumbdrum said:


> Why not get the caulking ferrule out of the cast iron hub and caulk a pvc caulking sleeve or cut the hub off and use a proper clamp. No offense but looks kind of a like a homeownerish repair.


It also looks like something someone, not necessarily a HO, with no experience with the materials would do. I would be at a loss if I ran across cast iron and lead. I have messed with exactly one cast iron joint in my day, and the guy I worked for at the time we used a rubber titeseal, i think is what is was called.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

chonkie said:


> Question since I've never dealt with lead except for a toilet flange. How did you keep the lead that you tied the pvc onto from collapsing and leaking? Some kind of stiffener like copper or pvc inside the lead before you clamped it down?


CHONKIE ... Dealing with lead, wiping ect.

Here is a post from the past ... 2010 aprox on the zone

Lead Piping ... The photo below shows Athode Unions ... A method of joining lead from years ago which did not require wiping.

The right hand part is for lead drainage to IP 1-1/2" both ends. The left hand part of the photo is for 5/8" lead to 3/4 IP.

To use you slipped the end with the nut over the lead, then with a turn pin you flared the lead out, then with a ballpeen hammer you flattened the lead against the flange, then you took a rasp and filed the excess lead to the diameter of the fitting. Finally you coupled to the other end, the lead you hammed flat became the gasket and the pressure caused by tightening the nut created the seal. 

Enjoy the way of the past. Yep I still have a couple of them.  Attached Thumbnails


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## wharfrat (Nov 1, 2014)

Why did it all get white spray paint?


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> Why not get the caulking ferrule out of the cast iron hub and caulk a pvc caulking sleeve or cut the hub off and use a proper clamp. No offense but looks kind of a like a homeownerish repair. Also why no clean outs ?? Your a plumber right ??


Why not you ask, cause it's too much trouble. 

I'd love to see your fix

You wouldn't make the crawlspace to inspect, inspector.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I've soldered onto many of lead pipes in my day, mostly old water line for repair purposes ,ya ya lead laws. Low heat and clean brass or copper, whatever fits snug in the pipe.


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## Eddy k (Jan 30, 2015)

Local code lets us flat vent as long as we use drainage fittings (no vent 90's below grade). That was a vent, overflow was above tub and trap. I am a plumber, do not do a lot of repair, yes I could have done a few things different. Local code only requires clean out on sinks and urinal's. You are right, should have cut off hub, crane operators house that I work with a lot, will go back and do that. Nice to have a conversation with other plumbers to keep me in check.


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## A Good Plumber (Jun 18, 2008)

chonkie said:


> It looks like that's not the vent, but the piping for the overflow itself. I originally wondered why he didn'tput the tee under the overflow and have a shorter drain arm, but then realized the lead tie in location probably made that the only way possible since he had to use a street tee to get it to have fall.


Chonkie, that was my first thought too, but if it is for the overflow, then the overflow is not trapped from the sewer. I'm hoping it's a vent, because it wasn't repaired correctly if it's not.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

A Good Plumber said:


> Chonkie, that was my first thought too, but if it is for the overflow, then the overflow is not trapped from the sewer. I'm hoping it's a vent, because it wasn't repaired correctly if it's not.


It's probably the lavatory.


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## Eddy k (Jan 30, 2015)

I painted because I was not very proud of all the primer I made a mess with while lying on my back.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Eddy k said:


> Local code lets us flat vent as long as we use drainage fittings (no vent 90's below grade). That was a vent, overflow was above tub and trap. I am a plumber, do not do a lot of repair, yes I could have done a few things different. Local code only requires clean out on sinks and urinal's. You are right, should have cut off hub, crane operators house that I work with a lot, will go back and do that. Nice to have a conversation with other plumbers to keep me in check.


Your gonna crawl back under there to remove 8" of lead?


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Eddy k said:


> I painted because I was not very proud of all the primer I made a mess with while lying on my back.


Wow! Who cares


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## Eddy k (Jan 30, 2015)

I do own and know how to use lead tools, I like the ferrule idea, usually only use them for closet flanges and sometimes mop sink drains. Never had to drag all that junk into a crawl space.


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

A Good Plumber said:


> Chonkie, that was my first thought too, but if it is for the overflow, then the overflow is not trapped from the sewer. I'm hoping it's a vent, because it wasn't repaired correctly if it's not.


I thought that too, I was about to post and ask if there was a cast iron ptrap in the ground. Then if so, was going to ask why it got double trapped. Moot points now.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Eddy k said:


> I painted because I was not very proud of all the primer I made a mess with while lying on my back.


Use clear primer, I'm sure there was no permit therefore no inspection. It's still primed.


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## Eddy k (Jan 30, 2015)

Again you are right nobody would ever see the purple primer, did it because I did not like the looks, clear primer would of looked a lot sweeter and would have saved me a lot of typing.


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm not a big fan of fernco couplings under the house.


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## KoleckeINC (Oct 22, 2011)

What I don't get-ferncos come on a check valve. I put it in and nobody says anything. Put it on dwv and everybody loses their minds. I would rather see ferncos than duct tape-rolling o-rings-siliconed joints-epoxy-fiberglass mesh-soil seal-plastic roofing cement-flex seal-a bucket-a gutter (that was fun remember that pic?) or any other hack repair.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Note To Self:
Do -not -post -pictures -of -work -I've -done -on -plumbing -zone -to -avoid -getting -cyber -beat -down.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

........


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

sierra2000 said:


> Note To Self: Do -not -post -pictures -of -work -I've -done -on -plumbing -zone -to -avoid -getting -cyber -beat -down.


Man...ain't that the damn truth!

On yer back and under a house is where plumbing that works and plumbing codes don't always agree. And on that day, plumbing that works wins in my book.


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

plumbdrum said:


> Why not get the caulking ferrule out of the cast iron hub and caulk a pvc caulking sleeve or cut the hub off and use a proper clamp. No offense but looks kind of a like a homeownerish repair. Also why no clean outs ?? Your a plumber right ??



I respect inspectors very much. He didn't install a clean out because no one would ever use it, let alone know it was there. Not required here. Might be elsewhere?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

rwh said:


> I respect inspectors very much. He didn't install a clean out because no one would ever use it, let alone know it was there. Not required here. Might be elsewhere?


 Tell that excuse to the guy who would have to snake that drain out. If it was me I'd be fuming. What would you do? Pulll all the piping apart at the Ferncos? Or better yet, snake it upstairs through the lead. Give me break, real plumbers, despite what YOUR code may say install CO no mater where it is.


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, it's more aimed at the common misconception with regards to posting pics.

Was this really what yall would consider a beat down? I don't see it. We were all calm, asked questions, made points to consider in the future.

Can't we discuss issues we see with someone's work if they are legit. If it makes the person think for a second and maybe do a better job the next time, isn't that a good thing? Call it peer quality control. Some people look at different aspects of an install with different experience and knowledge, and sometimes just their questions to the poster will make me want to learn more on a subject.

Use our discussions to learn something else besides the idea of don't post pics of your work on the Zone.


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Eddy k said:


> Nice to have a conversation with other plumbers to keep me in check.


OP seems to understand this.


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## Eddy k (Jan 30, 2015)

No offense on my end, been doing large commercial work since I started in the trade, now working by myself and starting to do more service work. A little criticism could only help me. After reading many post's i have realized codes are far more lenient here than other states. No mandatory apprenticeship program, no sanitary piping has to be filled with air or water above ground for top out. Talking with other plumbers that have relocated from other states standards are lower here. That does not mean there are not a lot of good plumbers here. Never too old to learn new stuff.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Eddy k said:


> No offense on my end, been doing large commercial work since I started in the trade, now working by myself and starting to do more service work. A little criticism could only help me. After reading many post's i have realized codes are far more lenient here than other states. No mandatory apprenticeship program, no sanitary piping has to be filled with air or water above ground for top out. Talking with other plumbers that have relocated from other states standards are lower here. That does not mean there are not a lot of good plumbers here. Never too old to learn new stuff.



Eddy, your a breath of fresh air on here. Finally someone who gets it. I'm sure reading post on here can seem to feel negative (I'm guilty of it also) but there are some real smart gents on here that are willing to help anyone who is legitimate out with plumbing, gas, and heating issues.while some people feel lacks about code, I am very passionate about it (it's what I do) and feel that most codes regardless what one your under is important for one reason or another. I am a true believer of deviation from code if the intent of the code is meant and there is a true hardship to deviate and make the situation safe and healthy for the occupants. I am also a firm believer in good workmanship and call out guys I inspect all the time, not to insult them but to educate on how it should be done by not my standards but industry standards, we are ALL professionals on here.


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## Eddy k (Jan 30, 2015)

Thank you, I really put myself out there for a simple repair. Happy to be a part of this forum with like minded people.


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

Where would you like the cleanout?


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Clean outs under the house! When have you crawled under the house, taken a cap off, ran cord to the now flooded crawlspace, plugged the 120v 3/8 machine that you just dragged 30 feet in total dark, and ran 18" of snake to clear a simple hair stoppage?

I can see a clean out at the begiining of a 3" line, I guess. Did a snake job like that under a house in 1980. J'man was outside feeding the snake and I was guiding it 20' from him. First and last time, tell ya what....


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## Eddy k (Jan 30, 2015)

This is good stuff, I like the way you guys dissect ever aspect of a situation, no sarcasm seriously good stuff.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Eddy k said:


> This is good stuff, I like the way you guys dissect ever aspect of a situation, no sarcasm seriously good stuff.


Don't push your luck, kid. Painting a pipe? Really?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Plumber said:


> Clean outs under the house! When have you crawled under the house, taken a cap off, ran cord to the now flooded crawlspace, plugged the 120v 3/8 machine that you just dragged 30 feet in total dark, and ran 18" of snake to clear a simple hair stoppage?
> 
> 
> 
> I can see a clean out at the begiining of a 3" line, I guess. Did a snake job like that under a house in 1980. J'man was outside feeding the snake and I was guiding it 20' from him. First and last time, tell ya what....



So because a tub , or sink is blocked there is a flooded crawl space? Sounds like you have a bigger problem than a blocked drain. My code requires a CO at base of every stack, and change of direction. Any real PLUMBER would assess what type of piping they are about to snake out to which would require the PLUMBER to possibly crawl under a house, ohhhhh surprise it's a lead drain can't snake it from upstairs but luckily the last PLUMBER was a real smart guy and left a CO on the drain at that brass to cast transition for a proper cleaning. Maybe your code does not account for common sense but mine does. And yes I have climbed under a house to clean out a drain in the past, sometime ya have to work a little bit.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

plumbdrum said:


> So because a tub , or sink is blocked there is a flooded crawl space? Sounds like you have a bigger problem than a blocked drain. My code requires a CO at base of every stack, and change of direction. Any real PLUMBER would assess what type of piping they are about to snake out to which would require the PLUMBER to possibly crawl under a house, ohhhhh surprise it's a lead drain can't snake it from upstairs but luckily the last PLUMBER was a real smart guy and left a CO on the drain at that brass to cast transition for a proper cleaning. Maybe your code does not account for common sense but mine does. And yes I have climbed under a house to clean out a drain in the past, sometime ya have to work a little bit.


If I get my gloves wet, that's a flood. No way am I going to risk my self over their painted pipes.

I don't mind working a little bit, but a lot? pffft....call the drain guy, that's what I do.


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

Common sense tells me that I am not opening a cleanout in a crawl space below a tub full of water to auger it


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

chonkie said:


> Question since I've never dealt with lead except for a toilet flange. How did you keep the lead that you tied the pvc onto from collapsing and leaking? Some kind of stiffener like copper or pvc inside the lead before you clamped it down?



In Illinois a "Fernco" is not allowed withing the foundation. Mechanical joints are required, solvent weld, soldered, etc. No hub couplings & adapters are permitted, but not with lead since a stiffener would need to be used and would restrict the ID of the pipe.

I used to utilized DWV copper and either a male or female adapter to make the transition from Lead. The unions in another post look great.

There was a lot of lead around the St. Louis area over the years. Hall plumbers in MO. still need to wipe a joint I am pretty sure. I have seen water service issues with replacement lines and the plumber had to wipe a lead joint co convert to a mechanical fitting at a curb stop.

As far as a clean out, the overflow can be counted as the clean out on a tub or a removable shower grated on a floor or shower drain in Illinois.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

Plumber said:


> Clean outs under the house! When have you crawled under the house, taken a cap off, ran cord to the now flooded crawlspace, plugged the 120v 3/8 machine that you just dragged 30 feet in total dark, and ran 18" of snake to clear a simple hair stoppage?
> 
> I can see a clean out at the begiining of a 3" line, I guess. Did a snake job like that under a house in 1980. J'man was outside feeding the snake and I was guiding it 20' from him. First and last time, tell ya what....


that happened to me on a main line clog back in 76' the jman got tangled in the cable, and never again would I run a drain under house like that :no:

as far as running any drain under a floor never ever !
always run from on top pull the toilet, or run from the roof vent, never under the floor, I did look under the floor to see how the pipes were run


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

tim666 said:


> Common sense tells me that I am not opening a cleanout in a crawl space below a tub full of water to auger it



He never said the tub was blocked , he said it was running slow. If anyone wants to attempt to snake through an ancient waste an overflow through a lead drain have at it.


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

Running slow because of the way it was piped and the old lead


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

GREENPLUM said:


> Why not you ask, cause it's too much trouble.
> 
> I'd love to see your fix
> 
> You wouldn't make the crawlspace to inspect, inspector.



It would have looked a hell of a lot more professional than that, and your right I wouldn't crawl under there. I wouldn't want to get my hands and pants dirty.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I'll paint my pipes black so it matches the cast.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

plumbdrum said:


> He never said the tub was blocked , he said it was running slow. If anyone wants to attempt to snake through an ancient waste an overflow through a lead drain have at it.


then its a great excuse to sell a repipe and get rid of the lead and old junk trip lever...and the clog would probably be resolved with new pipe..


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> then its a great excuse to sell a repipe and get rid of the lead and old junk trip lever...and the clog would probably be resolved with new pipe..



You got that right


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> It would have looked a hell of a lot more professional than that, and your right I wouldn't crawl under there. I wouldn't want to get my hands and pants dirty.


Ya ya talks cheap, sure you would, , lol


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Lol, believe it or not I have crawled In a space for an inspection. The plumber I was inspecting NEEDS me to look at everything .


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

plumbdrum said:


> So because a tub , or sink is blocked there is a flooded crawl space? Sounds like you have a bigger problem than a blocked drain. My code requires a CO at base of every stack, and change of direction. Any real PLUMBER would assess what type of piping they are about to snake out to which would require the PLUMBER to possibly crawl under a house, ohhhhh surprise it's a lead drain can't snake it from upstairs but luckily the last PLUMBER was a real smart guy and left a CO on the drain at that brass to cast transition for a proper cleaning. Maybe your code does not account for common sense but mine does. And yes I have climbed under a house to clean out a drain in the past, sometime ya have to work a little bit.


I used to think cleanouts at every change of direction made sense, till I became a service guy, now I look at a clean out on a 4" main, 16' in the air, thru a drop ceiling over beige carpet and I go.... Meh, I'll pull a toilet and run an extra 40' feet of cable. That being said, I still install them cause they are code, but... I hope to never use them.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

You plumbers need not worry about service guys, there service guys


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## BC73RS (Jan 25, 2014)

plumbdrum said:


> Lol, believe it or not I have crawled In a space for an inspection. The plumber I was inspecting NEEDS me to look at everything .


 The owner of the building needs the inspection to get what he/she paid for. If I had that call for service, there damn well be a c/o down there or I'd lose it.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Eddy k said:


> This is good stuff, I like the way you guys dissect ever aspect of a situation, no sarcasm seriously good stuff.


You seem alright....stick around. Sounds like you'll do alright.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Cleanout in a crawl space. Teet on a boar hog it is. (feel free to read in a Yoda voice)

I've been under homes from 1900 foward and have NEVER seen one cleanout and I never will. I damn sure wouldn't waste time installing one. The page in the book that requires a cleanout in a crawl space would make great rolling papers.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

So once again if you gents want to run a snake through a lead line be my guest. If not, I suggest buying a water ram. Lol. This should be a great start to another topic. Lol


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

I'm not understanding what lead you mean except the small piece before the cast which you would be putting the auger through if there was a pvc c.o. anyway


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

The 2-90's on the top of the TY there is a clamp, if you look at the first pic it shows the lead drop, he cut the drop and put a Ferncos on it from what I can see, maybe I'm wrong?


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

The vent?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

tim666 said:


> The vent?


 is it?


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

The bottom line, whether I agree with some of the code or not, im in business to make money, and I get paid for anything I put in....lets visit people skills again....Mr home owner..I put in a cleanout so if it happens again it (should )be easier to clear the pipe, and you might want to think about changing out that old worn trip lever on the tub....makes the home owner feel good and its easier to get them to go for more work...and there are times where cheap and fast is all the owner wants to go for, so its that way or you lose the work, you have to feel out who you are doing work for and what they want to pay, and try and show them if they fix the broken and worn, in the long run they will save both money and aggravation...


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

plumbdrum said:


> The 2-90's on the top of the TY there is a clamp, if you look at the first pic it shows the lead drop, he cut the drop and put a Ferncos on it from what I can see, maybe I'm wrong?


those double 90s are the vent and the trap is under the trip lever, its confusing because the pictures where taken from opposite sides of the piping...


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Wow. I've removed a ton of lead drains. Plumbdrum, I think you may he confused, that old lead tee you see isn't the tee picking up the tub shoe. That lead santee was most likely used to connect an old lead drum trap before it was replaced with that mess that the OP replaced. 

We have them all over the place here and that's how old homes were plumbed when lead was used. They still had a brass waste and overflow but it drained into a lead drum trap. The house that the OP worked on looks like it had a lead waste system at one time. That is more common in certain areas.

Usually, the drum trap gets clogged or leaks and the only option is to replace. Here's some photos of a repair I did on a tub in an older pier and beam home that had a lead drum trap. The customer had access made through the floor. The only other way would have been to tunnel. The first photo is of the old drum trap. The second photo is where the new PVC reconnects to cast. Had I the room I would have preferred to remove the brass ferrule at the hub and use a ty-seal. But yeah, this works. And the cleanout is the face plate on the overflow that says "Cleanout".


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

I've replaced cast, lead and steel before but I have to ask what that is on top of the cast iron fitting


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

tim666 said:


> I've replaced cast, lead and steel before but I have to ask what that is on top of the cast iron fitting


Rodent prevention.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Wow. I've removed a ton of lead drains. Plumbdrum, I think you may he confused, that old lead tee you see isn't the tee picking up the tub shoe. That lead santee was most likely used to connect an old lead drum trap before it was replaced with that mess that the OP replaced. We have them all over the place here and that's how old homes were plumbed when lead was used. They still had a brass waste and overflow but it drained into a lead drum trap. The house that the OP worked on looks like it had a lead waste system at one time. That is more common in certain areas. Usually, the drum trap gets clogged or leaks and the only option is to replace. Here's some photos of a repair I did on a tub in an older pier and beam home that had a lead drum trap. The customer had access made through the floor. The only other way would have been to tunnel. The first photo is of the old drum trap. The second photo is where the new PVC reconnects to cast. Had I the room I would have preferred to remove the brass ferrule at the hub and use a ty-seal. But yeah, this works. And the cleanout is the face plate on the overflow that says "Cleanout".


Believe me I am far from confused, I come from the land of lead and drum traps. At least your repair ( except for no CO, lol) looks more professional.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

The best and most fun is when all the lead piping is encased in the deffening ( light weight concrete of yesteryear) between all the beams of a bathroom like 6 inches thick...short of ripping the whole floor out sometimes you cannot even get to it or even see the piping, just water seeping through the concrete.....and then you see the plumbers way back then didnt own drills, they just notched half the floor joist away, guess not too mant building codes back then either..


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

Cleanout or not, it doesn't matter the next time there is drain issues the hair will be at the lead that has become squashed from the bottom fernco


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

tim666 said:


> Cleanout or not, it doesn't matter the next time there is drain issues the hair will be at the lead that has become squashed from the bottom fernco


That's why I stated to lose the lead and connect into the hub or the cast directly.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

I think the next clog wont be from the lead collapsing in, but the rough edge inside the fernco collecting hair and soap scum, the wiped lead joint where the fernco is clamped looks supported from the wiped on lead joint..


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