# This is WORST then Polotics: The FLUX agruement!



## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Check this out:

I plumbed in NYC and Long Island for 12 years ALWAYS was told if I did NOT clean my copper it would leak.

I move to NC, and Work for Connor-spear (call them to confirm this), AND they tell me:

"Grit cloth, fitting brush" Naw man, "It's self cleaning flux"

So, I listen and what do you know, I worked for them for like a year thousands of fittings and never cleaned one, or the pipe , just applied flux and soldered, what do you know, NOT one leak...

I move back to NYC, and tell the boys, about this, they laugh at me while I don't clean my fittings and then cry at the end of the day when I am done AND They are still working....

I have seen it and heard it " clean the pipe or else "

NOPE: Self cleaning flux will work....don't believe me try it tomorrow 

Feedback?


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## pzmember (Sep 20, 2008)

are you talking about tinning flux? i had one plumber tell me that but i just cant bring myself to not clean pipe and fittings. will it work, maybe. will it work if you clean it, definatly.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

No Flux flux


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Do you have any idea how much damage can be done by a pinhole leak on the 35th floor?

It gets cleaned, twice.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

dude, it works with any cleaning ,,......


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

No, i get you wet head, try it tomorrow like he said, brush some flux on a piece of copper and heat it up with your torch and see if it does not shine like a new penny. Do it all the time, only time i will clean a pipe or fitting is if it is dirty with grime, dirt ect.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Do you have any idea how much damage can be done by a pinhole leak on the 35th floor?
> 
> It gets cleaned, twice.



Do you know that YOUR not the ONLY one that has real world experience.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

pin hole, lets weak the integrity of the pipe and fittings by sanding them down a milimeter or so. pro press does not require sanding either. Pin holes in fittings that i have took apart are always do to someone not reaming the cuts.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

i've always used nokorode flux and my old boss would ask me about it every time i saw him. "oh, you use that stuff huh?" then he shows me this other stuff that i can't remember the name of but it was "self cleaning". i'm thinking that can't be right and ask him "so you don't have to clean the pipe and fitting with this stuff?"

"no you still have to clean them but it's self cleaning"

:tongue_smilie:





paul


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

******* said:


> Do you know that YOUR not the ONLY one that has real world experience.


OK.

See ya.


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## pzmember (Sep 20, 2008)

******* said:


> No Flux flux


 just straight up oatey #5? thats what i use but not w/ out cleaning. ive seen too many rim soldered joints hold for 20 years and pop apart when cutting in a tee.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

mjcoleman said:


> just straight up oatey #5? thats what i use but not w/ out cleaning. ive seen too many rim soldered joints hold for 20 years and pop apart when cutting in a tee.


dude, seriously try one joint tomorrow on the oldest piece of pipe, Look at Rockstars comment on first page


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## pzmember (Sep 20, 2008)

ok. but im going to cut it in half, beat it apart and check. loser has to buy a big mac, and check the bag. oh yeah, 2 more to go.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Do it


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## pzmember (Sep 20, 2008)

allright ill give it a shot, but im holding you to that big mac, ive got a load of frequent flyer miles.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Joe,
the folks at the Copper development agency give seminars on joining copper tube and fittings. For soldering or brazing, you really need to mechanically clean the pipe and fittings. Cleaning creates microscopic subsurface scratches called *interstices. *The solder actually bonds the two surfaces together. Without cleaning, the solder is more of a gap filler. Check out the CDA website.
http://www.copper.org/homepage.html

Jeff


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

jjbex said:


> Joe,
> the folks at the Copper development agency give seminars on joining copper tube and fittings. For soldering or brazing, you really need to mechanically clean the pipe and fittings. Cleaning creates microscopic subsurface scratches called *interstices. *The solder actually bonds the two surfaces together. Without cleaning, the solder is more of a gap filler. Check out the CDA website.
> http://www.copper.org/homepage.html
> 
> Jeff


Jeff,

I AGREE 100% , but the BOYS over at Conner-Spear saw it totally different and REFUSED, and In fact ALL of NEWBERN , NC does NOT sell grit cloth or turn brushes 

I am a "cleaning" man myself trust me and I a sure when the other NYC dudes show up they will agree here in NY we clean, BUT for NC when I worked there they didn't and made me not clean,........and PS Oatey does call is self cleaning


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

jjbex said:


> Joe,
> the folks at the Copper development agency give seminars on joining copper tube and fittings. For soldering or brazing, you really need to mechanically clean the pipe and fittings. Cleaning creates microscopic subsurface scratches called *interstices. *The solder actually bonds the two surfaces together. Without cleaning, the solder is more of a gap filler. Check out the CDA website.
> http://www.copper.org/homepage.html
> 
> Jeff



Oh BTW, I love that site, they sent me a FREE copper sizing calc


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

not cleaning your tube and fitting is insane likr jjbex said when you clean you are etching the tube this gives your solder something to adhere to:yes:


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Plumbworker said:


> not cleaning your tube and fitting is insane likr jjbex said when you clean you are etching the tube this gives your solder something to adhere to:yes:



I know, I agree, Dudes call :

*Name: Connor-Spear Plumbing Co*
Street: 403 Airport Road
New Bern, nc 28560-6619
Phone: (252) 633-1606

ASK THEM,

Say ...Do you remember that "yankee" that used to work for you in 94 , He told us that you dont clean pipe.

Call. Hell call now and leave a message, I bullsh i t you not


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

i did.. i gave em' an ear full


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Do you have any idea how much damage can be done by a pinhole leak on the 35th floor?
> 
> It gets cleaned, twice.


Agrees times eleventy billion. 

Also, If you ever read that 3" thick spec book you get on every job. It tells you exactly how to prep the pipe and fitting before soldering.

Get caught by the architect or mech. engineer not doing it by the book = start over.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

isnt a chemical reaction all the way around though? I mean, do sony and panasonic sand all of their circuit boards before soldiering? Jusy trying to make an argument in this debate.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> isnt a chemical reaction all the way around though? I mean, do sony and panasonic sand all of their circuit boards before soldiering? Jusy trying to make an argument in this debate.



ahaha 

Good One, and it works, Conner Spear has been in Business for 40 years and has NVER bought a brush , call and ask, I am serious


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> isnt a chemical reaction all the way around though? I mean, do sony and panasonic sand all of their circuit boards before soldiering? Jusy trying to make an argument in this debate.


I believe they are cleaned and then bathed in some VERY stong acid before soldering. We have vented some of the hoods on these machines


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

I know that flux itself is a strong enough acid. One of the worst burns i have recieved to date was from selfcleaning flux landing on the top of my hand after heated extremely. Ilplumber, you know you have sweated before with no cleaning, and i know you sleep well at night?


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Ilplumber, you know you have sweated before with no cleaning, and i know you sleep well at night?


Not one time. Never ever ever. I was lucky enough to be taught by my dad as well as training at the local. I do it strictly by the book.

I sleep well.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Dudes, I passed EVERY inspection IN NC


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> isnt a chemical reaction all the way around though? I mean, do sony and panasonic sand all of their circuit boards before soldiering? Jusy trying to make an argument in this debate.


 their not filling a capillary space either.:whistling2:


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

well, i guess i need to call MIT for a scientific experamint then, we shall get to the bottom of this.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

just clean your copper and get back to work. 









paul


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

No. Dont clean and work faster !!!


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## BatonPlumbing (Dec 30, 2008)

Just could never bring myself to soldering, and not cleaning pipe and fittings, if you sand and clean it has more to bite to, kind of like sanding you car before painting. Because the scratches or that fancy word interstices, helps the pipe and fittings accept the solder


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

The only good thing about not cleaning pipe and fittings is that I have seen some freeze-ups push the fitting off the pipe, instead of bursting the fitting.


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## PipemanNYC (Nov 21, 2008)

i could never bring myself to do that.. its like painting a car without sanding it down first,,


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

I agree, I just had no choice


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Old habits die hard...
I'll keep cleaning thanks...:blink:


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Just my .02
Using an abrasive cloth creates small grooves in the copper. This allows the solder to "Grab" on to something. Think of it this way, take 2 pieces of paper between your hands, now slide your hands across one another, easy huh? Now try the same thing with 2 sheets of sandpaper, cant do it huh?
Thats because there are so many lands and grooves that they can not slide across each other. Thats the theory behind cleaning the pipe with an abrasive cloth. It gives the solder grooves to fall into so there is no way they will ever come apart. 

Be it as it may, the product may indeed work well, but me? Remember, you cant teach an old dog new tricks!

BTW, I am also a building contractor. And trust me, I have seen a lot of "New way" of doing things faster all the time. Does it work? Not always. Is it cheaper? Why yes, yes it is, only if it TRUELY works, if and I mean IF it fails, then its more costly to make repairs. I will stick to tried and true methods.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Amen Bill. Do we have a beating a dead horse smiley?


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## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

:laughing:************************************


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Thankyou Para1. That will come in handy. Right click save as.....


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Wow....self cleaning flux. I highly doubt I could bring myself to do that. I spend more time cleaning than I do plumbing and I like it that way. I like knowing my joints are as good as they can possibly be. 

However have any of you owners considered what your insurance agent would say if you told him this? I think mine would send me a case of Nokorode and a written warning.

There is a saying I am often reminding my children with: "Just because you can do it, doesn't make it a good idea".


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I have this one...










See the blood squirt out of its nose...


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

The problem here is when I do commercial work ALL the specs are laid out, and include such things as how THEY want fittings preped.


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## WestCoastPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I sand really well, then ream, I always have to sand first, I don't care if it is new pipe that has been int he truck for 10 mins, it gets sanded clean, also the fittings, really well. 

I also sand my pipe when I do ProPress, Viega says it is not necessary, I feel better knowing that the mechanical crimp and o-ring are on clean, oil free copper.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

It would be difficult for me to stop cleaning. It would stay in the back of my mind for awhile. I'm not saying I could'nt get used to it, but it would take a while.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Has anyone called WAYNE Conner yet?


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Are we supposed to call and tell him he's doing it incorrectly?

What is the point of calling the man.

If he doesn't want to do stuff correctly. I guess that's on him.

Just so we are clear , NEGLECTING TO SAND THE PIPE AND CLEAN THE FITTING IS POOR WORKMANSHIP. End of story. 


I'm done .


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> Are we supposed to call and tell him he's doing it incorrectly?
> 
> What is the point of calling the man.
> 
> ...


Maybe we could talk some sense into him and it was a joke BTW , to call him.

I told you I had this thread title right 

This topic is worse then politics 

But it creates a good forum


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Self-cleaning flux probably works fine for new construction.
But I am a service guy. Most of the copper I solder fittings to is in old houses and is brown-black on the outside from years of oxidation. Self-cleaning flux doesn't work on this stuff. I clean the sh!t out of the pipe with grit-cloth and make it shine. It goes from dull brown-black to bright copper-pink...then I know I will have an easy solder job.:thumbsup:


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

service guy said:


> Self-cleaning flux probably works fine for new construction.


Thanks man, I knew eventually you would chime in and since you are from NC as well you might related to what I was showed by Connor Spear.

I however agree with you that using grit cloth and turn brushes is good


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

******* said:


> since you are from NC as well you might related to what I was showed by Connor Spear.


No, everyone around here that I know of cleans the copper and fittings. You must have worked in a more retarded part of the state.:tt2:


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

service guy said:


> No, everyone around here that I know of cleans the copper and fittings. You must have worked in a more retarded part of the state.:tt2:



Well. I am not sure how close you live to James City in Newbern NC, but that's where I was 

Yea, they were dense that's for sure, I never worked with a weirder bunch, 

The just used to call me "Joey Yankee" and tell me to shut up


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## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

squeeeeeeeell like a pig:laughing:


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

para1 said:


> squeeeeeeeell like a pig:laughing:


dude, thats the guy I worked with


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## BatonRougePlumb (Nov 21, 2008)

*You have to clean the self-cleaning flux off the pipe*

If you do not clean the self-cleaning flux off the pipe, the acid in the flux will continue to eat a hole through the copper in 5 to 15 years.

I don't think the type of flux you use matters as far as the quality of the weld nor the integrity of the joint.

Even with No-Korrode, a quality plumber carries a rag, water spray bottle, and wipes the joint while it is still hot. This makes the joint look neat and it will never turn green or white.

In some states self-cleaning flux is not legal and in some states (I heard California) No-Korrode is not legal. I think they have to use water-soluble flux.

The pin-hole leaks in the middle of a copper pipe are usually caused by some chemicals in the water, water abrasion, tiny electrical currents, and flaws in the copper. Pinhole leaks near a joint are caused by either self-cleaning flux, or because the pipe was not reamed and the turbulence causes water abrasion. 

I get this information because my company installs over 100,000 feet of copper every months and we are very meticulous about the way we install the copper. We install copper for many new commercial buildings and new hotels. 

Cleaning the flux off the pipe makes a difference. We went to a job, a few weeks ago where a pinhole leak in a 1/2 inch hot water copper pipe caused over $150,000 in damage. I wonder what the insurance company thinks about leaving an acid residual on the copper.

Sorry, but this is what you get when you use self-cleaning flux and don't wipe the joint with water and a rag while the joint is hot.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Hmm.that is an image i have seen around here much to often. Its kinda a good thing from a service stand point. I mean hell, somebodys got to make payroll around here!!!


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

dude, stop taking pictures of my repair work. that's how i fix my callbacks on solder joints. :laughing:

nokorrode is legal here, as far as i know. it's sitting right there on the shelf at the supply house.






paul


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Really, i mean a cut up fernco and a 5/16" nut driver makes fo easy money. " Sure man, hell, I'll have that wrapped up in a minute." Or even better, I could sitck a copper nail in the hole and sweat it up, but that would take longer, and you dont even wanna know what longer cost.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Oh thats a nice hose clamp


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