# Be careful plumbing in Illinois



## spudwrench (Sep 15, 2009)

This may take more than one post: At the continuing ed. class on 10/2, my regional state inspector, that is retiring, said the following. Define a commercial dishwasher. Answer: any DW in a commercial setting. If you install a residential DW in ANY comm. setting, it must have an indirect waste type drain, and an ASSE vacuum breaker on the water supply, just the same as a comm. dish machine. Also, if the faucet at the sink has a sidespray, it must have a dual check on the hose, or BFP protection on the supplies. The example was a typical Delta 400. A plumber at this class had been nailed on the faucet thing and had cut the sidespray hose, put two nylon barb fittings in a 3/8 dual check, and used little SS clamps to comply. After the class I went to the Delta faucet Rep and told this story. His reaction,WTF! Also, for our foreign friends, dedicated BFP's for Buttsprays and Washlett Seats. No more funky supply tee's or little kitchenette breakrooms allowed here. Check these things with your local inspectors before a bid!


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Well, 
I plumb in Illinois, after a fashion. I will like to see what happens with the side spray.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I know the inspector you are referring to. I agree with all.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

"I agree with all."
That I plumb after a fashion?:jester:


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

spudwrench said:


> ! Also, for our foreign friends, dedicated BFP's for Buttsprays and Washlett Seats. No more funky supply tee's or little kitchenette breakrooms allowed here.


 Does anybody have a back flow preventor that would work good for the toilet seat bidets? something with a 3/8 compression fitting would be awesome. and small.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

saysflushable said:


> Does anybody have a back flow preventor that would work good for the toilet seat bidets? something with a 3/8 compression fitting would be awesome. and small.


 Check with "Parker" They make all kinds of fluid fittings.


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## BarakThePlumber (Sep 19, 2009)

They also want a BFP device on a hand held body spray in a bathtub!! This goes over real well with HOs spending milllions of dollars and the inspector wants you to put a Chrome VB on a Roman tub with rubbed bronze finish!!! LOL


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## Regulator (Aug 20, 2009)

saysflushable said:


> Does anybody have a back flow preventor that would work good for the toilet seat bidets? something with a 3/8 compression fitting would be awesome. and small.


Check with the local AHJ (inspector). A toilet seat spay is a health hazard = high hazard. This may mean a difference in acceptable backflow preventer from one jurisdiction to the next. Residential application vs. commercial application may also play a role.


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## Regulator (Aug 20, 2009)

BarakThePlumber said:


> They also want a BFP device on a hand held body spray in a bathtub!! This goes over real well with HOs spending milllions of dollars and the inspector wants you to put a Chrome VB on a Roman tub with rubbed bronze finish!!! LOL


And who then is responsible when someone gets sick due to backflow. "Hey, the inspector accepted it without the required backflow preventer. Not my problem."
If there is a aesthetics issue, then maybe the manufacturer should provide an aesthetically pleasing solution. A health risk is a health risk no matter how good it looks.


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## BarakThePlumber (Sep 19, 2009)

Regulator said:


> And who then is responsible when someone gets sick due to backflow. "Hey, the inspector accepted it without the required backflow preventer. Not my problem."
> If there is a aesthetics issue, then maybe the manufacturer should provide an aesthetically pleasing solution. A health risk is a health risk no matter how good it looks.


Yes, because water in Bathtubs is VERY dangerous!! It's amazing that my my two year old is still alive, He drinks water out of the bathtub every chance (not that we encourage it) he gets, after they have pee'd and got bathed in the water!! I know the codes and I am certified in backflow protection, but please when is enough, enough??
I understand Kitchen sinks, I understand chemical tanks and injection units, I worked at a refinery and Labratories for 10+ years!! But Bath Water??


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## Turd Burglar (Sep 26, 2009)

BarakThePlumber said:


> Yes, because water in Bathtubs is VERY dangerous!! It's amazing that my my two year old is still alive, He drinks water out of the bathtub every chance (not that we encourage it) he gets, after they have pee'd and got bathed in the water!! I know the codes and I am certified in backflow protection, but please when is enough, enough??
> I understand Kitchen sinks, I understand chemical tanks and injection units, I worked at a refinery and Labratories for 10+ years!! But Bath Water??


You never know what kind of frigged up whack that people put in their bathtubs. Rotting catfood, mold, dead animals, whothefunk knows what else?


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

How do you know what will be in that bathtub?

sewer back-up. Where is the sewage? You guessed it. In the bathtub.

The handheld shower could concievably be submerged in sewage.


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## Turd Burglar (Sep 26, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> How do you know what will be in that bathtub?
> 
> sewer back-up. Where is the sewage? You guessed it. In the bathtub.
> 
> The handheld shower could concievably be submerged in sewage.


That is what I was saying, but in my more streettalk kind of way.:zorro:


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## Regulator (Aug 20, 2009)

BarakThePlumber said:


> Yes, because water in Bathtubs is VERY dangerous!! It's amazing that my my two year old is still alive, He drinks water out of the bathtub every chance (not that we encourage it) he gets, after they have pee'd and got bathed in the water!! I know the codes and I am certified in backflow protection, but please when is enough, enough??
> I understand Kitchen sinks, I understand chemical tanks and injection units, I worked at a refinery and Labratories for 10+ years!! But Bath Water??


Direct quote from the "Summary of Backflow Incidents, Fourth Edition, December, 1995" published by the Pacific Northwest Section, AWWA:
"Summary - 1933-001:
At the 1933 Worlds Fair, an epidemic of dysentery spread among the visitors, of the eight hundred identified victims, more than forty died. Backsiphonage through 'generally defective water and sewrage piping layout' in a hotel was attributed as the cause of the disease outbreak.
Details - The Board of Health report found 'old and generally defective water and sewerage potentially, at least, permitting backsiphonage of a number of fixtures such as *bathtubs* and flush-toilets into water lines."

Besides the above example and the direct connection to the sanitary there are other health risks. MRSA, VRE, Superbugs. Ever heard of them? They can be found living on the skin of humans and on surfaces of living spaces. Anyone who works in a hospital or convalescent facility can bring them home with them at the end of the day. These viruses are on the rise and can be transferred extremely easily. On the skin, not so bad. Once ingested different story. Regular soap and water has no effect on these little nasties. 

If plumbers are ever to be taken seriously when we make claims to be protecting public health, we need to consider the possibility of contamination of every water connection/outlet we install.


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## grandpa (Jul 13, 2008)

spudwrench said:


> ... Answer: any DW in a commercial setting.!


 
There are other reasons why I don't know if you can even get away with a res. in comm'l, such as the sanitation issue. The res will not be NSF approved. I noted recently that some whirlpools and maytags ( same company) are sporting NSF on some of their higher end res, but it specifically states NSF RESIDENTIAL APPROVAL...Not certified for commercial use.


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## BarakThePlumber (Sep 19, 2009)

Okay Guys, I'm not trying to start a argument here, I agree with you all on BackFlow Protection, what I'm saying here is we are straining at a knat and swallowing a camel!! I have a multi million dollar home that we all know the whirlpool will probably be used twice a year, if that? with a deck mounted body wash. The chances of this causing a backflow situation is greater than the odds of winning the Powerball! But in the basement and garage I have laundry tubs that are going to be used everyday for cleaning chemicals with hoses attached to the faucet and that is acceptable?? I have more training and certification in backflow protection than I care to remember, admit or talk about.. Here is my point, If we (in this great state of IL) are so concerned about backflow prevention and protection, lets just do like Tuscon (and most of AZ) did. EVERYONE gets a RPZ on their water service, they have it tested anually and if they don't the water gets shut-off!!!! That way if the HO wants to be a dumbass or build a meth lab in their basement, they can kill themselves! The problem is most Plumbers (of course none of you guys on here don't know the difference between back siphonage and backflow, they don't understand the levels of backflow devices or how to properly, test, use or install them.. I recently asked several Plumbers what RPZ (I didn't dare go to DC DDC AVB PVB RP....) stood for and why you needed them and they were like.. Well it's code? When I told them I could buy three items at any hardware store and kill a million people, they all called me a liar!! Until I explained to them how to do it.. Gentlemen to me THAT is scary!!


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

BarakThePlumber said:


> Okay Guys, I'm not trying to start a argument here, I agree with you all on BackFlow Protection, what I'm saying here is we are straining at a knat and swallowing a camel!! I have a multi million dollar home that we all know the whirlpool will probably be used twice a year, if that? with a deck mounted body wash. The chances of this causing a backflow situation is greater than the odds of winning the Powerball! But in the basement and garage I have laundry tubs that are going to be used everyday for cleaning chemicals with hoses attached to the faucet and that is acceptable?? I have more training and certification in backflow protection than I care to remember, admit or talk about.. Here is my point, If we (in this great state of IL) are so concerned about backflow prevention and protection, lets just do like Tuscon (and most of AZ) did. EVERYONE gets a RPZ on their water service, they have it tested anually and if they don't the water gets shut-off!!!! That way if the HO wants to be a dumbass or build a meth lab in their basement, they can kill themselves! The problem is most Plumbers (of course none of you guys on here don't know the difference between back siphonage and backflow, they don't understand the levels of backflow devices or how to properly, test, use or install them.. I recently asked several Plumbers what RPZ (I didn't dare go to DC DDC AVB PVB RP....) stood for and why you needed them and they were like.. Well it's code? When I told them I could buy three items at any hardware store and kill a million people, they all called me a liar!! Until I explained to them how to do it.. Gentlemen to me THAT is scary!!


It is very rare that a laundry tray is going to be the lowest fixture on any given branch off of a stack, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it is rare, and residential laundry tray faucets are required to have an AVB on the outlet if it has a hose thread, on a commercial application they have to have an AVB seven foot six inches above the floor, well in Chicago anyway.

And I have seen homeowners charged with endangerment and fined for by-passing code with hooking cleaning solutions directly to a laundry faucet.


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## Regulator (Aug 20, 2009)

BarakThePlumber said:


> The problem is most Plumbers (of course none of you guys on here don't know the difference between back siphonage and backflow, they don't understand the levels of backflow devices or how to properly, test, use or install them.. I recently asked several Plumbers what RPZ (I didn't dare go to DC DDC AVB PVB RP....) stood for and why you needed them and they were like.. Well it's code? When I told them I could buy three items at any hardware store and kill a million people, they all called me a liar!! Until I explained to them how to do it.. Gentlemen to me THAT is scary!!


Backsiphonage IS a form of backflow. The other form is backpressure.


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## Pipedoc (Jun 14, 2009)

BarakThePlumber said:


> ...... The chances of this causing a backflow situation is greater than the odds of winning the Powerball! ........


 Isn't every backflow incident a fantastic set of circumstances all happening at once?:yes: If these situations didn't occur there would be no need for the code.

Just because the fixture is only going to be used a couple of times a year is no reason to give it a pass.


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## BarakThePlumber (Sep 19, 2009)

Regulator said:


> Backsiphonage IS a form of backflow. The other form is backpressure.


OTHER?? There are more than two forms of Backflow!! :thumbsup: 
I'm not even taking the bait on passes!! 
I stand by my original Statement!! We ARE straining at Knats!! 

That is all!! 
:rockon:


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## Regulator (Aug 20, 2009)

BarakThePlumber said:


> OTHER?? There are more than two forms of Backflow!! :thumbsup:
> I'm not even taking the bait on passes!!
> I stand by my original Statement!! We ARE straining at Knats!!
> 
> ...


Backflow is the reversal of the normal (intended) direction of flow. Backflow is caused by either backsiphonage or backpressure. In other words, these are the two forms of backflow. Perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us on what other causes (forms) of backflow exist?


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

It is our due dilligence as plumbers to prevent ANY backflow situation from introducing less than desirable chemicals, objects, or whatever into the potable water sytem.


No matter how remote the chance of it happening are. If you don't like doing that. Do the homeowner a favor and have them hire someone who cares.

We are not straining at gnats, we are doing what we were trained to do.

That is all.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

BarakThePlumber said:


> OTHER?? There are more than two forms of Backflow!! :thumbsup:
> I'm not even taking the bait on passes!!
> I stand by my original Statement!! We ARE straining at Knats!!



No, we are protecting the health of the nation, that is our job.


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## spudwrench (Sep 15, 2009)

grandpa said:


> There are other reasons why I don't know if you can even get away with a res. in comm'l, such as the sanitation issue. The res will not be NSF approved. I noted recently that some whirlpools and maytags ( same company) are sporting NSF on some of their higher end res, but it specifically states NSF RESIDENTIAL APPROVAL...Not certified for commercial use.


I guess that my post was just an illinois thing,any kitchen outside of a single family home is comm. If you have a "break room" at your shop,realtors office, dress shop, or whatever. If you have a business of any kind, that is in a comm. zone here, that is what we were talking about.


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## Regulator (Aug 20, 2009)

spudwrench said:


> I guess that my post was just an illinois thing,any kitchen outside of a single family home is comm. If you have a "break room" at your shop,realtors office, dress shop, or whatever. If you have a business of any kind, that is in a comm. zone here, that is what we were talking about.


Any kitchen other than within a "dwelling unit" is determined as common area here in British Columbia as well.


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## spudwrench (Sep 15, 2009)

saysflushable said:


> Does anybody have a back flow preventor that would work good for the toilet seat bidets? something with a 3/8 compression fitting would be awesome. and small.


That is what really jerks my chain, if the state or locals want us to abide by the new code rules, why do we have to spend our time figuring out what is right or wrong, and take chances. Any mfgr. can box fixtures or fixture controls, market the stuff, and then it is up to us to get these things approved within our jurisdiction. Don't know how we can put this in a can, but JEEZ!


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## Regulator (Aug 20, 2009)

spudwrench said:


> That is what really jerks my chain, if the state or locals want us to abide by the new code rules, why do we have to spend our time figuring out what is right or wrong, and take chances. Any mfgr. can box fixtures or fixture controls, market the stuff, and then it is up to us to get these things approved within our jurisdiction. Don't know how we can put this in a can, but JEEZ!


I understand your frustration. I also believe that the process should be that manufacturers are required to meet mandatory standards before their product reaches the market. For better or worse, this is not the way the system works.

All I can recommend is that prior to quoting a price for the installation, contact the AHJ to determine the acceptable backflow prevention device.:confused1:


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## grandpa (Jul 13, 2008)

spudwrench said:


> I guess that my post was just an illinois thing,any kitchen outside of a single family home is comm. If you have a "break room" at your shop,realtors office, dress shop, or whatever. If you have a business of any kind, that is in a comm. zone here, that is what we were talking about.


 
Good point. What I had in mind was hotels. Hotels and motels, back in the day, offered a "continental breakfast" which meant pastries and coffee. Today, if you are looking to be anything more than a 2 star joint, you have to offer a buffet with hot cereal, scramble eggs, waffle maker, etc etc. For a while, many hotels were "winging" that, but local health authorities in many areas are now taking a close look. They want all the machinery to be NSF, etc. No more 2 slice toasters and 700 watt microwaves from Target!


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