# What's reasonable, cost-wise, for drain-cleaning?



## Tounces

I've worked for a few different companies in different areas, and I'm sure prices do vary by what city you're in, but where you're at, what do you consider reasonable?

What I have experienced so far - 

Oklahoma City - $109, any type of drain, No coupons. 80 cents per foot after 50 ft in a mainline. (No basements, mostly outside bi-directional cleanouts for main lines). Generally easier work, except when you have to dig down on a job that has no cleanout around 25% of the time and break into the line for access.

Omaha, NE - Company 1 - $178 Main Line, $165 Secondary. $30 coupons, often used. Most Mainline is a 3" access in the basement, lots of hauling down stairs. 6 month warranty. No camera.

Company 2 - $300 main line($340 if basement), $250 secondary. Up to $50 coupons, but rarely seen anyone use one. 6 month warranty. Includes free camera inspection for mainline for either job.

Company 3 - $99 an hour main line, $90 an hour secondary. 30 day warranty. This company paid hourly though so what they charged didn't matter as much to me. No Camera. 


I'm asking this because I'm trying to figure out what sort of area/job I should be looking for. 

In Omaha - 

At Company 1 - Since they took $30 off the top, and they took the coupon off, I was realistically only making commission off $128 and $105 respectively.
I got plenty of jobs - 3-5 a day, although made nothing during down time for stuff that was beyond my control. What it amounted to is I was working 12 hour shifts 5 days a week(13-14 hours by the time the last job was done), and on call one night a week as well, and only bringing home an avg of 600 a week. 

At Company 2 - I made good money per job, but only got 1-3 jobs a day...some days not even that. I wasn't trying to blatantly sell people line replacements or crap they didn't actually need, but their prices are probably on the high side(though still a good deal cheaper than the most expensive outfits here). The thing is the owner was just some idiot who bought the company with his in-laws money recently and couldn't run the place for ****, which is also one of the reasons I left.

At Company 3 - Well, it paid hourly, but that one didn't work out for other reasons so I can't say much on them.

In Oklahoma - Made commission off all but $10 of the job, had plenty of jobs, but only had to work like a 9-10 hour shift on average, making around $500 a week.


So, what exactly is a GOOD company type I should be looking for?

I'm trying to find an ideal balance between a company that screws it's customers, and one that screws it's employees. So far I seem to have only been able to find companies that are too close to one end of the spectrum. I'm kind of scared of cities that have so many "$99 drain opening" companies because they seem to create a really ****ty environment for drain techs.

Of course, it's hard to find out how much companies charge and what they're actually paying you of that beforehand, so it's going to take a fair amount of work even once I know what to look for, but still, this would be a starting point.


----------



## deerslayer

Are you a plumber or a drain tech?


----------



## Leach713

His probability a tech


----------



## Tounces

Drain Tech, yes.

And no present or future interest in doing plumbing really.


----------



## deerslayer

Tounces said:


> Drain Tech, yes.
> 
> And no present or future interest in doing plumbing really.


Well unfortunately you are stuck in your position by your own mindset. No shame in drain cleaning, I do it all the time, however getting licensed as a plumber might open the door for a higher paycheck, get paid for what you know rather than do.


----------



## Tounces

I'm not really sure how that's relevant to what I was asking....

I know that eventually becoming a Master Plumber makes the most income, but that doesn't mean I have to either rob people, or beg for scraps being a drain cleaner.


----------



## Leach713

Tounces said:


> I'm not really sure how that's relevant to what I was asking.... I know that eventually becoming a Master Plumber makes the most income, but that doesn't mean I have to either rob people, or beg for scraps being a drain cleaner.


No not really I seen jman making more it all about the person put in that work the knowledge and comprehending the work


----------



## sierra2000

Home Depot is hiring.


----------



## Tounces

sierra2000 said:


> Home Depot is hiring.


Maybe I should be asking this - 

Are there forums where I could ask these questions where members are not simply insulting as a response? 

Last I checked, this is the DRAIN CLEANING forum, why the hell would anyone who's here, belittle someone for being a drain cleaner?


----------



## gear junkie

Personally I'd stay away from the commision based companies. Look for the company that has been there awhile and does little to no advertising. They're doing something right with their customers and chances are they'll do right by their employees as well.

Ever see the drain cleaners bible? More then 3/4 of the book is plumbing layout. the rest of the book is the equipment. Point is there's nothing wrong with being a drain "tech"(lol) but with want to be a good drain guy, you gotta learn some plumbing as well. Good luck to you


----------



## 422 plumber

Tounces,
in the hierarchy of shizznit, drain cleaners are on the bottom. Not being a jerk, just telling the truth. Some plumbers look down on drain cleaners. The thing is, being a plumber who also cleans drains means you are going to make plumber money. Being a drain cleaner only, limits your earning potential. If you have no interest in becoming a plumber, your income is at other's mercies. That being said, you have been killing yourself and for peanuts. Have you ever thought of going into business for yourself?


----------



## plbgbiz

Tounces said:


> Drain Tech, yes. And no present or future interest in doing plumbing really.


The natural progression in our trade of increased wages goes hand-in-hand with progress in skills and credentials.

It is not usual to receive the former without the latter.


----------



## Tounces

422 plumber said:


> Tounces,
> in the hierarchy of shizznit, drain cleaners are on the bottom. Not being a jerk, just telling the truth. Some plumbers look down on drain cleaners. The thing is, being a plumber who also cleans drains means you are going to make plumber money. Being a drain cleaner only, limits your earning potential. If you have no interest in becoming a plumber, your income is at other's mercies. That being said, you have been killing yourself and for peanuts. Have you ever thought of going into business for yourself?


Yes, and plan to. But, need a good nother year or two at least before being able to afford equipment, van, etc.

So, for the mean time, I need to find at least a decent company to work for. I'm not expecting to get rich, but like I said, I don't want to screw people over, but I don't want to be screwed over either. 

There HAS to be some sort of place that's a middleground.

Unfortunately what someone suggested above isn't true - a company that treats it's customers right treats it's employees right. The companies I have worked for treat their customers right at the expense of their employees.


----------



## Tounces

plbgbiz said:


> The natural progression in our trade of increased wages goes hand-in-hand with progress in skills and credentials.
> 
> It is not usual to receive the former without the latter.


Right. Drain Cleaning isn't something you learn to do well over night though. And I'm not sure it could be considered natural progression, since the majority of plumbers never start in drain cleaning.

Most Drain cleaners I've met, stayed drain cleaners. Like, for 20-40 years. To get into plumbing you have to take a massive pay hit for 3+ years, and then your license is mostly useless outside of the city you get it in...

I'd rather not get into a profession that, if I ever move anywhere else, all my credentials become worthless.


----------



## JAraiza

gear junkie said:


> Personally I'd stay away from the commision based companies. Look for the company that has been there awhile and does little to no advertising. They're doing something right with their customers and chances are they'll do right by their employees as well. Ever see the drain cleaners bible? More then 3/4 of the book is plumbing layout. the rest of the book is the equipment. Point is there's nothing wrong with being a drain "tech"(lol) but with want to be a good drain guy, you gotta learn some plumbing as well. Good luck to you


Is there really such a thing Drain Cleaners Bible?


----------



## sierra2000

Tounces said:


> Maybe I should be asking this - Are there forums where I could ask these questions where members are not simply insulting as a response? Last I checked, this is the DRAIN CLEANING forum, why the hell would anyone who's here, belittle someone for being a drain cleaner?


The insulting comment wasn't about being a drain cleaner. As a business owner I take offense that you feel because we want to make a nice (not just comfortable) living and turn a 20% profit, we have to be ripping off our customers. Until you legitimately go into business for yourself and put your health, life savings and families future on the line, I say you're out of line for throwing that comment out there about businesses ripping off it's customers. Yes, some do just like in any industry, but the majority don't. You don't need to be spilling that crap on here. Nothing stops the viewing DIY public from viewing this site and forming yet another negative opinion of plumbers based on what they read here.
A few weeks ago I went on an estimate for a sewer Reline. The customer received a quote for $16,000 to replace the line. I gave a quote of $9800 to line the 70ft of sewer and was awarded the job. Two days later I go out to hydro jet the line and prepare it for lining. After cleaning up the line I realized it only needed a major spot repair and some yearly root treatment for minor root intrusion and not a complete lining and charged them $3175 for a spot repair and hydro jetting. I take offense to generalizing that most plumbing owners are crooks.


----------



## plbgbiz

Tounces said:


> Right. Drain Cleaning isn't something you learn to do well over night though. And I'm not sure it could be considered natural progression, since the majority of plumbers never start in drain cleaning. Most Drain cleaners I've met, stayed drain cleaners. Like, for 20-40 years. To get into plumbing you have to take a massive pay hit for 3+ years, and then your license is mostly useless outside of the city you get it in... I'd rather not get into a profession that, if I ever move anywhere else, all my credentials become worthless.


I did not say the natural progression began with drain cleaning. The key is progressing in skill no matter what your current skill happens to be. Do not expect to get paid more if you refuse to learn how to do more. 

I suspect you suffer from G.I.G.S. (Grass Is Greener Syndrome). 

BTW: I think your statement that you don't want to get credentials because you might not be able to take them with you if you move, is a load of horse pucky. I am sure there is a real reason you do not want to obtain or can't obtain a license. I am also sure it has nothing to do with fear of relocation. Unless of course you are a Nomad. If that is the case, you might want to consider that almost without exception, the top paid tradesmen are often the ones that also put down roots. 

There are exceptions for the Organized guys that travel but that clearly will never be you because Unions are all about learning and progressing in trade knowledge.


----------



## plbgbiz

About being Organized: They do have some of the best pay and benefits. What they don't have is "techs". Drain or otherwise. Why? Because it is Licensed Plumbers that command the money, not techs.

I am not knocking your skill in drain maintenance or anyone else's. It is noble work and I do plenty of it myself. The fact of the matter is most drain techs make less money than licensed Plumbers. And usually a lot less. Part of that depends on the market and licensing requirements.


----------



## Drain Pro

422 plumber said:


> Tounces, in the hierarchy of shizznit, drain cleaners are on the bottom. Not being a jerk, just telling the truth. Some plumbers look down on drain cleaners. The thing is, being a plumber who also cleans drains means you are going to make plumber money. Being a drain cleaner only, limits your earning potential. If you have no interest in becoming a plumber, your income is at other's mercies. That being said, you have been killing yourself and for peanuts. Have you ever thought of going into business for yourself?


I wonder if the plumbers who haven't got a clue about how to clean drains, consider me on the bottom. They certainly wouldn't if they knew how much my "on the bottom" drain cleaning company made last year. By the way, a lot of that revenue comes from licensed plumbers not being able to clear a stoppage, and I arrive and get it done. I'm not saying all plumbers are like this but in these parts, most plumbers are an absolute joke when it comes to cleaning drains. There's room for all types of specialties in the field of plumbing. To consider sewer and drain personnel at the bottom is ignorant. Then again, some people make fun of what they don't understand.


----------



## bulldozer

I love being on the bottom. I've made an excellent living doing what most believe is below them. Unfortunately there is tradesmen that feel they are way above others and most of them are all talk. Make it your goal to be the best at what you choose to do and the rest will follow. I have friends that started at McDonald's and now have six figure incomes.


----------



## Leach713

Drain Pro said:


> I wonder if the plumbers who haven't got a clue about how to clean drains, consider me on the bottom. They certainly wouldn't if they knew how much my "on the bottom" drain cleaning company made last year. By the way, a lot of that revenue comes from licensed plumbers not being able to clear a stoppage, and I arrive and get it done. I'm not saying all plumbers are like this but in these parts, most plumbers are an absolute joke when it comes to cleaning drains. There's room for all types of specialties in the field of plumbing. To consider sewer and drain personnel at the bottom is ignorant. Then again, some people make fun of what they don't understand.


That because some plumber don't have the right tool or machines or even nozzles 
And if the plumber can't pop the line we PLUM in the new sewer or new drain line .

There is a reason why any one can be a drain cleaner but not every one can become a PLUMBER


----------



## PLUMB TIME

I'm a Master plumber that has also done drain cleaning for 30 years. Drain work can be very profitable and has been.
my question to the drain only guys is this; when you run into a situation where you have to cut into the "plumbing" system i.e. cleanout, rotten pipe etc. what do you do?
without the license do you walk? where I live only a licensed plumber is allowed to make repairs.


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

Tounces said:


> Yes, and plan to. But, need a good nother year or two at least before being able to afford equipment, van, etc.
> 
> So, for the mean time, I need to find at least a decent company to work for. I'm not expecting to get rich, but like I said, I don't want to screw people over, but I don't want to be screwed over either.
> 
> There HAS to be some sort of place that's a middleground.
> 
> Unfortunately what someone suggested above isn't true - a company that treats it's customers right treats it's employees right. The companies I have worked for treat their customers right at the expense of their employees.


You seem to be concerned with not screwing the customers. That comes from within and not from your employer, necessarily. Most companies want to profit and some find easy and not-so-ethical means to do that if they aren't talented or knowledgeable in doing it ethically. If you don't want to cheat people than don't. Its that simple. I work with some real scum bags who cheat people. So what? I don't. I also make very good money honestly. If I worked for another company, those guys would still be cheats.

My point is you can only control you. Find a company that offers your desired schedule and routine. You will never figure out who is a shady company by looking at how they pay. 

The point is you are looking for the wrong things. Where can you best grow and become whatever it is you would like to become is how you should be approaching it, IMO. 

For me, I do only drain work now, but I have my MPL in Texas and have done plumbing for over ten years before I decided to focus on drains. I used to hate drain cleaning and I did look down on Drain Techs. That was arrogant and ignorant of me.

Now I am starting my own drain company but being I can do all plumbing I can take on other types of jobs if I so choose. I will promote drains and hopefully be a referral for the plumbers who don't want to jet or clean a line and I will be doing sewer replacements. It is best to become knowledgeable in as much as possible because it will only help and never hinder. If you decide in the end you still want to focus on drains then great!

Most companies around here aren't looking for drain guys. They need helpers and those looking to advance. You gotta do what's best for you but in this early stage of your career for you to limit yourself is going to make it difficult for employers to want to hire you. Your pay will also suffer.


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

I had a plumber from another company here in Houston that is very successful tell me that their pay scale and system keeps its employees honest. Uhh, there hasn't been a pay scale ever that kept a man or woman honest. Only you can keep yourself honest. 

A lot of people here including business owners aren't fans of straight commission based pay, and have some very sound reasons for it, but in the end it is the individual that makes the difference and not the company or pay system. For me and my personality straight commission pay is the only way to travel.

Note: By the way, I have seen estimates for $46,000 to tunnel and replace 20' of sewer line that had no issues on a ten year old house left by the so-called "honest pay" company I mentioned so yeah, no pay scale keeps a crooked man or woman honest. They just figure out new ways to cheat. That's human nature.


----------



## TheDrainGuy

Up here in Boston plumbers plumb for the most part. Of course you have R.R. that does plumbing and drain cleaning and I'm sure there are some other smaller companies that do both.
However, most of my work is either directly thru plumbers or referrals because they can't be bothered with drains for the most part.
These guys in the city are doing high end kitchens and bathrooms , heating systems or whatever for big numbers, most don't have the time to run around chasing turds, which is fine by me because I love chasing turds!


----------



## Tounces

sierra2000 said:


> The insulting comment wasn't about being a drain cleaner. As a business owner I take offense that you feel because we want to make a nice (not just comfortable) living and turn a 20% profit, we have to be ripping off our customers. Until you legitimately go into business for yourself and put your health, life savings and families future on the line, I say you're out of line for throwing that comment out there about businesses ripping off it's customers. Yes, some do just like in any industry, but the majority don't. You don't need to be spilling that crap on here. Nothing stops the viewing DIY public from viewing this site and forming yet another negative opinion of plumbers based on what they read here.
> A few weeks ago I went on an estimate for a sewer Reline. The customer received a quote for $16,000 to replace the line. I gave a quote of $9800 to line the 70ft of sewer and was awarded the job. Two days later I go out to hydro jet the line and prepare it for lining. After cleaning up the line I realized it only needed a major spot repair and some yearly root treatment for minor root intrusion and not a complete lining and charged them $3175 for a spot repair and hydro jetting. I take offense to generalizing that most plumbing owners are crooks.


Did you just read what I wrote and take your own interpretation from it entirely?

What in the world are you talking about? Are you saying that companies that over-charge customers don't exist or something? Or that companies who blatantly rip them off don't exist?

I'm trying to figure out exactly where you got all this from in the first place. I haven't yet worked for a company that rips people off, but I certainly know of a couple and avoid them.

When you have to pay another company some $20,000 in order to create a bunch of fake reviews for you on various different websites to drown out all the negative reviews - there is a pretty good chance you're ripping people off.


----------



## Tounces

PLUMB TIME said:


> I'm a Master plumber that has also done drain cleaning for 30 years. Drain work can be very profitable and has been.
> my question to the drain only guys is this; when you run into a situation where you have to cut into the "plumbing" system i.e. cleanout, rotten pipe etc. what do you do?
> without the license do you walk? where I live only a licensed plumber is allowed to make repairs.


This question ALWAYS seems to come up.

Seriously - it's not hard. I just tell whatever company I work for to send someone else out.


----------



## Tounces

Best Darn Sewer said:


> You seem to be concerned with not screwing the customers. That comes from within and not from your employer, necessarily. Most companies want to profit and some find easy and not-so-ethical means to do that if they aren't talented or knowledgeable in doing it ethically. If you don't want to cheat people than don't. Its that simple. I work with some real scum bags who cheat people. So what? I don't. I also make very good money honestly. If I worked for another company, those guys would still be cheats.
> .


Some companies have minimum averages per job you need to maintain that would be unobtainable without over-charging. One company I was applying to said they require a minimum of $800 per job average.


----------



## Tounces

plbgbiz said:


> I did not say the natural progression began with drain cleaning. The key is progressing in skill no matter what your current skill happens to be. Do not expect to get paid more if you refuse to learn how to do more.
> 
> I suspect you suffer from G.I.G.S. (Grass Is Greener Syndrome).
> 
> BTW: I think your statement that you don't want to get credentials because you might not be able to take them with you if you move, is a load of horse pucky. I am sure there is a real reason you do not want to obtain or can't obtain a license. I am also sure it has nothing to do with fear of relocation. Unless of course you are a Nomad. If that is the case, you might want to consider that almost without exception, the top paid tradesmen are often the ones that also put down roots.
> 
> There are exceptions for the Organized guys that travel but that clearly will never be you because Unions are all about learning and progressing in trade knowledge.


You seem to be be confusing "top pay", which isn't what I am seeking, with "reasonable" pay, which is what I am seeking.

I do not consider $600ish(700 before taxes) a week for working 60-70 hours "reasonable". That equates to around 8-10 dollars an hour. I could make more in completely unskilled trades than that. 

Honestly, if you're averaging 65 hours a week, why should you be making less than 900 a week? That's only like 11.50 an hour. I could easily make more at a factory.


----------



## mightypipe

Tounces said:


> You seem to be be confusing "top pay", which isn't what I am seeking, with "reasonable" pay, which is what I am seeking. I do not consider $600ish(700 before taxes) a week for working 60-70 hours "reasonable". That equates to around 8-10 dollars an hour. I could make more in completely unskilled trades than that. Honestly, if you're averaging 65 hours a week, why should you be making less than 900 a week? That's only like 11.50 an hour. I could easily make more at a factory.


Honestly... The whole question is kind of stupid. Asking people what you should be making? You answered yourself in the OP when you said 'it's different in different places' etc. 

You would be better off in a factory... Steady hours, no shiot, and a heater in the winter. Don't know why you continue.


----------



## SewerRat

I am a third partner business owner. We only have one employee. He gets a 100% A+ grade. He's on time, is efficient, only makes a mistake one time and learns quickly. I'd give my left arm to keep him. We started him at a dollar an hour higher than he was getting at his previous job after 4 or 5 years there. He makes almost as much as we, the owners, take home. He gives us his best without encouragement. As far as I know (and I ask occasionally), he is happy here. 

We also do our best to provide the best bang for our customers' buck. I can look anybody in the eye and say I've never ripped anyone off, ever.

What you've said so far convinces me that if you came to work for me, you would come with the mindset that I'm screwing somebody, either you or the customer. I would view your attitude as a cancer to my business. You wouldn't be happy here, because you're not happy anywhere. At some point you're going to have to conclude that the dissatisfaction is inside you. Nobody is going to be a perfect enough boss to suit you.

Take a step back, get a new perspective, and start giving your employer 110% and he'll treat you right.


----------



## Tounces

mightypipe said:


> Honestly... The whole question is kind of stupid. Asking people what you should be making? You answered yourself in the OP when you said 'it's different in different places' etc.
> 
> You would be better off in a factory... Steady hours, no shiot, and a heater in the winter. Don't know why you continue.


I wasn't asking what I should be making.

I was asking what is considered a "fair" price for a company to be charging customers for drain cleaning.


----------



## mightypipe

Tounces said:


> I wasn't asking what I should be making. I was asking what is considered a "fair" price for a company to be charging customers for drain cleaning.


Same stupid question... Different wrapper.


----------



## Tounces

You know, there are women's forums where the members are less touchy than this.


----------



## gear junkie

Tounces said:


> I wasn't asking what I should be making.
> 
> I was asking what is considered a "fair" price for a company to be charging customers for drain cleaning.


I know your question is perfectly innocent but it's kind of a disrespectful question because that involves overhead....private business owner stuff. There is no "fair price" on what to charge that applies to every company. Quality of work should be main focus. If price is the main criteria, then the customer will leave once they find someone cheaper.

Just curious, why the question on a fair price?


----------



## TheDrainGuy

Just want to "respectfully" correct someone a few posts back about not anyone can be a plumber, but anyone can be a drain cleaner.
I've been doing drains for 10 years and have trained tons of guys to be techs. I can honestly say that I can count on one hand the ones that actually somewhat picked it up in 6 weeks and went on and learned the hard way as we all do, dying on miserable back to back fixtures, or snaking sludge lines for 4-5 hours.
The luxury a plumber has is they can put a snake in a drain and if they can't clear it they can tell the customer they need to open the wall, cut in a clean out, or replace the pipe all together.
When I learned this trade at the company I started at, you were not getting paid unless you cleared that drain.
The thing about drains is you don't learn in a classroom. There is no book to study on cleaning sewers. You learn almost all of it by being in the field and making mistakes. To be a plumber you need a brain, obviously apprenticeship hours, pass exams, trade schools and whatever else.
When I worked at RR, most of the managers had journeyman cards and I'm not kidding, this one guy couldn't sweat a joint, but he was a smart guy and he had a plumbing license.

Matt


----------



## Leach713

Tounces said:


> You seem to be be confusing "top pay", which isn't what I am seeking, with "reasonable" pay, which is what I am seeking. I do not consider $600ish(700 before taxes) a week for working 60-70 hours "reasonable". That equates to around 8-10 dollars an hour. I could make more in completely unskilled trades than that. Honestly, if you're averaging 65 hours a week, why should you be making less than 900 a week? That's only like 11.50 an hour. I could easily make more at a factory.



WELL GUY WHY DONT YOU DO THAT THEN
WORK for a FACTORY

You will have no worries clock in and clock out 

You only make on what you think you worth


----------



## plbgbiz

Tounces said:


> ....I was asking what is considered a "fair" price for a company to be charging customers for drain cleaning.


Then here is your answer>> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f4/more-than-owning-job-17477/


----------



## mightypipe

Tounces said:


> You know, there are women's forums where the members are less touchy than this.


Misogyny will not make your question or your attitude any better. 

I am not being 'touchy'. 

I am advising you to get a factory job... And... Because I'm not your dad, I don't feel the need to sugar-coat it. 

I am ignoring your initial question, in favor of answering the one you didn't even know you should be asking...


----------



## Leach713

TheDrainGuy said:
 

> Just want to "respectfully" correct someone a few posts back about not anyone can be a plumber, but anyone can be a drain cleaner. I've been doing drains for 10 years and have trained tons of guys to be techs. I can honestly say that I can count on one hand the ones that actually somewhat picked it up in 6 weeks and went on and learned the hard way as we all do, dying on miserable back to back fixtures, or snaking sludge lines for 4-5 hours. The luxury a plumber has is they can put a snake in a drain and if they can't clear it they can tell the customer they need to open the wall, cut in a clean out, or replace the pipe all together. When I learned this trade at the company I started at, you were not getting paid unless you cleared that drain. The thing about drains is you don't learn in a classroom. There is no book to study on cleaning sewers. You learn almost all of it by being in the field and making mistakes. To be a plumber you need a brain, obviously apprenticeship hours, pass exams, trade schools and whatever else. When I worked at RR, most of the managers had journeyman cards and I'm not kidding, this one guy couldn't sweat a joint, but he was a smart guy and he had a plumbing license. Matt


Didn't mean no disrespect but you said it your self 6wk of train and bam your and drain tech 
And I believed you too I meet journeyman that were stupid
Made you wonder how they got a License .
At the end of the day experience on the field make you a great tradesman at anything


----------



## newyorkcity

*


mightypipe said:



I am ignoring your initial question, in favor of answering the one you didn't even know you should be asking...[/

Click to expand...

*


mightypipe said:


> QUOTE]
> 
> I will be using that quote the next time my wife asks me something...:laughing:


----------



## SewerRat

OK, let's get back to the root question. What is a fair price for sewer / drain cleaning? 

Where I live, that would be somewhere between $100 to $125. Now bear in mind, according to the news last week, we rank 49th out of 50 states for average income. A tradesman (plumber or electrician) charges around $55/hr for comparison sake. 

Rod (UnclogNH) was charging $300 in New Hampshire last I checked and he always struck me as a pretty straight shooter. I don't know how NH ranks but it's probably not the highest paid state.

So, the short answer is somewhere between $75 and $350 would be a "fair" price for sewer and drain cleaning. 

Close enough?


----------



## Drain Pro

A fair price is relative to the overhead of the individual business. A fair price would be a dollar amount that covers your costs plus makes you a reasonable profit. Most employees only look at the dollar amount there company charges and they believe that's the amount the company made. They have no idea of all the business related expenses involved.


----------



## plbgbiz

Tounces said:


> ...Company 3 - $99 an hour main line, $90 an hour secondary. 30 day warranty. *This company paid hourly though so what they charged didn't matter as much to me.* No Camera.
> 
> 
> *I'm asking this because I'm trying to figure out what sort of area/job I should be looking for. *
> 
> In Omaha -
> 
> At Company 1 - Since they took $30 off the top, and they took the coupon off, *I was realistically only making commission off $128 and $105 respectively.*
> I got plenty of jobs - 3-5 a day, *although made nothing during down time for stuff that was beyond my control.* What it amounted to is I was working 12 hour shifts 5 days a week(13-14 hours by the time the last job was done), and on call one night a week as well, *and only bringing home an avg of 600 a week. *
> 
> At Company 2 - *I made good money per job, but only got 1-3 jobs a day*...some days not even that. I wasn't trying to blatantly sell people line replacements or crap they didn't actually need, but their prices are probably on the high side(though still a good deal cheaper than the most expensive outfits here). The thing is the owner was just some idiot who bought the company with his in-laws money recently and couldn't run the place for ****, which is also one of the reasons I left.
> 
> At Company 3 - *Well, it paid hourly, *but that one didn't work out for other reasons so I can't say much on them.
> 
> In Oklahoma - *Made commission off all but $10 of the job,* had plenty of jobs, but only had to work like a 9-10 hour shift on average, *making around $500 a week.*
> 
> 
> *So, what exactly is a GOOD company type I should be looking for?*
> 
> I'm trying to find an ideal balance between a company that screws it's customers, and one that screws it's employees. So far I seem to have only been able to find companies that are too close to one end of the spectrum. I'm kind of scared of cities that have so many "$99 drain opening" companies because they seem to create a really ****ty environment for drain techs.
> 
> Of course, it's hard to find out how much companies charge *and what they're actually paying you *of that beforehand, *so it's going to take a fair amount of work even once I know what to look for*, but still, this would be a starting point.


How about you explain to us again how you are not asking about wages. :laughing::laughing:


----------



## plbgbiz

Definition of "FAIR PRICE".

The "fair" price is the most the customer will pay and still believe they got their money's worth.

Anything less shortchanges either the plumber's income or the customer's needs....usually both.


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

I thought a "fare price" was what you paid the cab driver. Its kinda like being ripped off, its subjective. If I paid more than Joe Blow did sown the street for seemingly the same job but I felt as though I got my money's worth then I wasn't ripped off.


----------



## sierra2000

Tounces said:


> Did you just read what I wrote and take your own interpretation from it entirely? What in the world are you talking about? Are you saying that companies that over-charge customers don't exist or something? Or that companies who blatantly rip them off don't exist? I'm trying to figure out exactly where you got all this from in the first place. I haven't yet worked for a company that rips people off, but I certainly know of a couple and avoid them. When you have to pay another company some $20,000 in order to create a bunch of fake reviews for you on various different websites to drown out all the negative reviews - there is a pretty good chance you're ripping people off.


You wrote your unqualified opinion on here that companies either rip off their customers or their techs not me. Considering how you're bouncing around so much, making excuses why you left, looking for a gravy position with a company, don't want to advance your skills to make yourself more valuable to a company and have such a negative view about plumbing companies - I'd say whatever unfortunate company that ends up with you is the one getting ripped off. Yet you don't understand why you're getting ripped so much. The local Lowes is also hiring.


----------



## sierra2000

You got X'd from three different companies that we know of. Has it occurred to you that maybe you're not worth the pay that you're looking for?


----------



## Hoosier Plumber

My snake is currently stuck in a drain at a customers house. I DON'T WANT TO BE A PLUMBER/DRAIN CLEANER ANYMORE!!!!! 

Tomorrow morning it will either let loose and come out or they will hear those dreaded words. Jobs like this make me want to pull drain cleaning out of every bit of advertising. Some times I think I should just stick to plumbing. Then I pull up my big boy pants and get the job done.


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

Hoosier Plumber said:


> My snake is currently stuck in a drain at a customers house. I DON'T WANT TO BE A PLUMBER/DRAIN CLEANER ANYMORE!!!!!
> 
> Tomorrow morning it will either let loose and come out or they will hear those dreaded words. Jobs like this make me want to pull drain cleaning out of every bit of advertising. Some times I think I should just stick to plumbing. Then I pull up my big boy pants and get the job done.


Terrible way to have to start a weekend. Good luck and I hope you can get it out easily.

Edit: I guess if it were easy you'd be done. Haha.


----------



## rjbphd

Hoosier Plumber said:


> My snake is currently stuck in a drain at a customers house. I DON'T WANT TO BE A PLUMBER/DRAIN CLEANER ANYMORE!!!!!
> 
> Tomorrow morning it will either let loose and come out or they will hear those dreaded words. Jobs like this make me want to pull drain cleaning out of every bit of advertising. Some times I think I should just stick to plumbing. Then I pull up my big boy pants and get the job done.


How the hell u get it stuck in there?? Getting a golden retreiver to get it out??


----------



## Hoosier Plumber

rjbphd said:


> How the hell u get it stuck in there?? Getting a golden retreiver to get it out??


One of two things has happened in my opinion. 

1. There is a huge root ball on the end an pulling it back into the drain from the main is tough. 

2. There is a collapsed section of pipe. 

I pulled it back and have left tension on it hoping it settles down and pops loose. Also dumped liquid fabric softener down the line. I've heard it helps. 

Just when you think your kicking butt and taking names the waiter shows up with big ole piece of humble pie.


----------



## TheDrainGuy

The liquid soap trick does work on massive root balls. Lubes em up nice and creates suction so they will slide back


----------



## TheDrainGuy

Good luck


----------



## rjbphd

In that case.. I run the cable reverse to loosen the ball and re rodded.. don't miss rodding sewer.. give me some boiler jobs!


----------



## Will

Nothing is fair. It's a load of crap. Is it fair your employer pays more than double the percentage in taxes you go as a tech?

Is it fair some people are born with a silver spoon in hand?

Is it fair Lebron James is better in basketball than me?

Man up and go make something of your life. You got to do it your self, don't wait for it to fall in your lap.


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

TheDrainGuy said:


> The liquid soap trick does work on massive root balls. Lubes em up nice and creates suction so they will slide back


Good to know. I've never heard that before.


----------



## tims007

Tounces said:


> I wasn't asking what I should be making.
> 
> I was asking what is considered a "fair" price for a company to be charging customers for drain cleaning.


this question boils down to one answer ... what ever you feel happy charging ... perhaps call around and ask places what they would charge for a job as a customer .. or just strait up ask them .. or take what info you have and use that and go in the middle .. me i keep my customers happy and charge accordingly .. i have never been accused of " charging to much or ripping people off" ( except for one company but that was because i was requiered to folow thier priceing guidelines) .. sometimes i deaviate and keep the customer happy .. but now that i am on my own .. i make the rules .. drain cleaning was the pits when i was starting out .. but u learned to respect it ..learned some cool tricks and now i offer both plumbing and drain cleaning .. its a win win .. honistly .. 

woah i went way off lol sorry adhd and loving it .. anywho .. charge what you feel is right ... 
and what you want to make

me i like to make $1000 a week or more .. am i doing that right now no cause i am just starting out on my own and well ya got to start low and slow .. unless you have the $$$$$ to invenst in advertising ( i dont yet) .. when i am hauling butt i would like to make $500 in profit a day or more to be honest .. when working for other companies as a plumber and drain cleaner i made them $1000 a day to $2500 a day .. 
so it all boils down to what you want to charge and make .. and be honest about doing it .. .. **** i have been known to surprise random customers ( when working for a company and with the bosses approval)that when i go to collect the amount they think they are going to have to pay (say $1000) and cut it in half .. or less aslong as parts are covered and $100 for fuel and $25 a hour for my wage)


----------



## Will

Keep in mind if your bringing in 800 a week take home after taxes, that is your profit, if your an employee. As a business onwer there are other fees that cut into what a employee would think is "money in the bank" that your boss is paying. 

And to say "you" made your boss 1000-2500 profit a day is not totaly true. YOu most likely used his equipment, customer, other employees, or advice to help make that profit. 

That profit would start to look alot smaller also if you where the business owner.


----------



## plbgbiz

Will said:


> Keep in mind if your bringing in 800 a week take home after taxes, that is your profit, if your an employee. As a business onwer there are other fees that cut into what a employee would think is "money in the bank" that your boss is paying.
> 
> And to say "you" made your boss 1000-2500 profit a day is not totaly true. YOu most likely used his equipment, customer, other employees, or advice to help make that profit.
> 
> That profit would start to look alot smaller also if you where the business owner.


Ain't that the truth!

There are countless Plumbing Business Operators that never did, don't now, and never will understand their own cashflow. It is a rare (almost non-existent) employee that understands the real numbers. It is NOT because they are not as smart as their employer. It is because they don't see all the bills, nor do they take time to add it all up and anylize. 

Geez, employers seldom do. Since when would an employee know how much money the company netted off any job?

Again for clarity: Employees need not get twisted over these facts. They are just the facts, not a judgment of character, ability, or importance to their employer. Employees just don't have access to the data that answers those questions.


----------



## Hoosier Plumber

Woo hoo I got my snake back!!! 

This guy is going on the list of potential camera, jetter or line replacement when I get the equipment. 

Softener may have helped but I still had to work it hard to get it to let go.


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

That was a huge relief, I am sure, Hoosier.


----------



## TheDrainGuy

Hoosier Plumber said:


> Woo hoo I got my snake back!!! This guy is going on the list of potential camera, jetter or line replacement when I get the equipment. Softener may have helped but I still had to work it hard to get it to let go.


 Was it stuck in roots or were you in a break? Or both lol


----------



## Hoosier Plumber

TheDrainGuy said:


> Was it stuck in roots or were you in a break? Or both lol


A root problem. 

Don't have a camera at this time, but he is sold on the idea of following up when I get the camera.


----------



## Letterrip

Glad you could get to the "root" of the problem!!


Now stop hijacking this poor man's thread!!


----------



## Hoosier Plumber

Letterrip said:


> Glad you could get to the "root" of the problem!! Now stop hijacking this poor man's thread!!


Wanted to offer Mr. Thinks Prices are too high a little reality that every business owner faces. Had I damaged my snake where would I get the money to replace or repair? 

But if a change of course, not a full hijacking.


----------



## Tounces

Well plbgbiz's post link is pretty helpful for when I actually start up my own OMS someday. Thank you for that - I was wondering what I should charge, myself. 

Now the question I'm working on is "How often should I be available for calls?".



Anyway, other than that, this thread turned more into a *****-fest than anything. I think some of ya'll are really touchy about what you're charging customers. I'm less concerned with charging higher prices, than I am with customers feeling like they are being ripped off and thus going to another company.

What prompted this thread in the first place, was I was checking through customer reviews of companies in Denver, and saw a LOT of people complaining about prices. That concerns me, because if customers in the area think that "more than $100 to open a sewer line" is unfair - then there is no way in **** I am moving to Denver. That's the main reason I want to see what's considered "Fair", especially for the area people live in, so that I can avoid areas that charge people so little that I'll be making less than I am now.

Oh, and FYI, I wasn't fired from any of the companies I've worked for. 

From Oklahoma - I moved, and transferred to the same company in Omaha.

That company had extremely few jobs available(for more than 6 months straight), so I found something else. 

That company the manager was just an *******, and yes, I won't work for a complete *******, so I went elsewhere.

That company works WAY TOO FREAKING MANY hours. Sorry but a Averaging 65-70 hours a week is overkill for me, especially when it's not amounting to big paychecks.


----------



## Tounces

Btw - if you're charging your customers out the ass - but they're just plain loving you - good for you.

It's not rape if the person is willing.


----------



## plbgbiz

Tounces said:


> ...I think some of ya'll are really touchy about what you're charging customers...


Maybe someday you will have enough business experience to be touchy about your pricing as well...maybe.


----------



## Hoosier Plumber

Tounces said:


> Btw - if you're charging your customers out the ass - but they're just plain loving you - good for you. It's not rape if the person is willing.


In light of all the information that has been shared you must be a real dense type of ******* to make this above statement. 

Charges are based on what the owner feels is a needed profit for them. Until you have walked a mile in the shoes of being a business owner shut the **** up!!!


----------



## Tounces

Hoosier Plumber said:


> In light of all the information that has been shared you must be a real dense type of ******* to make this above statement.
> 
> Charges are based on what the owner feels is a needed profit for them. Until you have walked a mile in the shoes of being a business owner shut the **** up!!!


Information shared? 

No, what I was looking for was information. Pretty much all I've gotten is grief. 

Lemme put this in the most plain terms possible - 

I DON'T ****ING CARE WHAT YOU CHARGE YOUR CUSTOMERS.

I was trying to find information, not trying to guild trip you.


----------



## 4Aces Plumbing

I haven't been around here as long as these other guys so I'm probably not quite as harsh, but honestly you do care what The **** they're charging their customers, for this thread would not have been started  the most important thing you gotta realize is if you are looking to go into business for yourself do not ask that question here unless you are directing it towards local companies if you want to find out what your region will sustain ask the local companies...


----------



## Tounces

4Aces Plumbing said:


> I haven't been around here as long as these other guys so I'm probably not quite as harsh, but honestly you do care what The **** they're charging their customers, for this thread would not have been started  the most important thing you gotta realize is if you are looking to go into business for yourself do not ask that question here unless you are directing it towards local companies if you want to find out what your region will sustain ask the local companies...


No. I started this thread, because I wanted to know what customers would consider fair.

That way, when I am looking for a different company to work for, I know they're charging customers enough money to make a living, but not so much money that they don't have any freaking customers.


----------



## sierra2000

Customers consider handyman prices fair.


----------



## Hoosier Plumber

Tounces said:


> No. I started this thread, because I wanted to know what customers would consider fair. That way, when I am looking for a different company to work for, I know they're charging customers enough money to make a living, but not so much money that they don't have any freaking customers.


It would probably be best for you to get maintenance or factory job where you don't have to worry about prices and you could work 40 hours.


----------



## sierra2000

Tounces said:


> Well plbgbiz's post link is pretty helpful for when I actually start up my own OMS someday. Thank you for that - I was wondering what I should charge, myself. Now the question I'm working on is "How often should I be available for calls?". Anyway, other than that, this thread turned more into a *****-fest than anything. I think some of ya'll are really touchy about what you're charging customers. I'm less concerned with charging higher prices, than I am with customers feeling like they are being ripped off and thus going to another company. What prompted this thread in the first place, was I was checking through customer reviews of companies in Denver, and saw a LOT of people complaining about prices. That concerns me, because if customers in the area think that "more than $100 to open a sewer line" is unfair - then there is no way in **** I am moving to Denver. That's the main reason I want to see what's considered "Fair", especially for the area people live in, so that I can avoid areas that charge people so little that I'll be making less than I am now. Oh, and FYI, I wasn't fired from any of the companies I've worked for. From Oklahoma - I moved, and transferred to the same company in Omaha. That company had extremely few jobs available(for more than 6 months straight), so I found something else. That company the manager was just an *******, and yes, I won't work for a complete *******, so I went elsewhere. That company works WAY TOO FREAKING MANY hours. Sorry but a Averaging 65-70 hours a week is overkill for me, especially when it's not amounting to big paychecks.


You finally go into business for yourself. You start buying equipment needed, hopefully pay yourself more than the highest paid journeyman out there and expect to make a profit on every dollar you spend. Hopefully - you crunch your numbers to determine an hourly rate and it says you need to charge $250 for every single hour you bill to make a 15% profit based on your overhead. Will you then ignore that and charge what you think a customer wants to pay? It matters not what anyone else charges.


----------



## Tounces

sierra2000 said:


> You finally go into business for yourself. You start buying equipment needed, hopefully pay yourself more than the highest paid journeyman out there and expect to make a profit on every dollar you spend. Hopefully - you crunch your numbers to determine an hourly rate and it says you need to charge $250 for every single hour you bill to make a 15% profit based on your overhead. Will you then ignore that and charge what you think a customer wants to pay? It matters not what anyone else charges.


You act like you can just charge whatever you want, and you will get the exact same amount of business regardless.


----------



## Hoosier Plumber

Tounces said:


> Information shared? No, what I was looking for was information. Pretty much all I've gotten is grief. Lemme put this in the most plain terms possible - I DON'T ****ING CARE WHAT YOU CHARGE YOUR CUSTOMERS. I was trying to find information, not trying to guild trip you.


I just read through this thread again and see tons of helpful information, if you can't see any of it then you are unable to see your questions have been answered. 

Guilt trip???? Get outta here, there is not guilt trip with what I charge. I'm convinced it's time to raise my rates because I need more money. Lol.


----------



## 4Aces Plumbing

I fail to see why he started this thread. I don't know if a factory would be a good place for him to work either because they might charge more for their products then the factory down the road! Charge what the LOCAL AREA will sustain, charge what YOU feel comfortable with. I didn't have a magical price book when I started out, I checked locally! I didn't have my prices were they should be when I started out but I kept food on the table and I got my reputation out, now as far is plumbing goes I don't give a crap what "Jo Blow" down the street charges.. There is a good chance I might even charge more now days because of my reputation and that is what my customers are willing to pay for the quality and service I provide them.


----------



## Tounces

4Aces Plumbing said:


> I fail to see why he started this thread. I don't know if a factory would be a good place for him to work either because they might charge more for their products then the factory down the road! Charge what the LOCAL AREA will sustain, charge what YOU feel comfortable with. I didn't have a magical price book when I started out, I checked locally! I didn't have my prices were they should be when I started out but I kept food on the table and I got my reputation out, now as far is plumbing goes I don't give a crap what "Jo Blow" down the street charges.. There is a good chance I might even charge more now days because of my reputation and that is what my customers are willing to pay for the quality and service I provide them.


Because, I haven't moved yet, that's why.

If Denver charges $100 a job and customers feel like they are getting ripped off, and Nashville charges $500 a job and customers are loving it, guess where I'll be moving to?


----------



## plbgbiz

Tounces said:


> You act like you can just charge whatever you want, and you will get the exact same amount of business regardless.


Your sir, would do well to read every past and future post from Sierra. He has already bestowed upon you more wisdom than you will probably ever be in a position to use.

If you are half the tradesman you claim to be, your next post ought to be one of gratitude directed toward him.


----------



## 4Aces Plumbing

Ahh, I see. I guess I feel as though there is so much more to a business based decision on where I would live. but just for your information my area of Montana is 120 for secondary, 225 for a mainline, 225 for a camera with DVD for customer. secondary lines make me a killing, main lines do OK, camera jobs don't make me s*** but I throw them a price and try to make a chunk off of subcontracting the replacement.


----------



## SewerRat

Tounces said:


> No. I started this thread, because I wanted to know what customers would consider fair.
> 
> That way, when I am looking for a different company to work for, I know they're charging customers enough money to make a living, but not so much money that they don't have any freaking customers.


And we've answered that question as plain as it can possibly be answered over and over again.

Sit up and pay attention because I'm going to try to beat this into that brain of yours, one more time.

There are way too many variables to say, for example, $175 is a fair price, across the board, for someone to have to pay for drain cleaning. "Fair" means equally beneficial to every party involved. That's where the overhead of the business comes in. A guy can go out and buy a couple used machines and toss them in the back of a 1974 Datsun mini truck and be in business. His overhead is not high, and theoretically he can charge not much more than a normal hourly rate and arguably claim he is making money. Let's say he charges the all time infamous $99. If he runs 6 calls a day he makes almost $600 per day. With a total of $2500 in equipment invested, his equipment will break even in just over 4 days. Assuming he does a good job, the customer gets a great deal. Is that "fair?" No, he shortchanges the industry. It's not fair to the full service shops that have all the specialty equipment to handle every situation, such as mainline and mini cameras, jetters with a good assortment of nozzles, newer, more reliable service vehicles, etc. It's not fair to the owner himself because he will have little chance if improving his situation and no savings for a rainy day.

Now, as far as the second company depicted goes, let's assume between the service van and all the equipment they have an equipment investment of $70,000 per vehicle/tech. This is the company you want to work for because they pay well. They pay you $7500 a month along with all the other techs. They also have 3 office personnel drawing a wage of $6000 per month which is $18,000 in wages for people who aren't out doing calls and physically making money. Then there is interest on loaned money, insurance, fuel and maintenance for all the service vans, shop rent or payment, heat and utilities for the office, etc. Let's just pick a number; say the accountant has accurately crunched the numbers and determines that the break even point of the business at current volume is $183.15 per service call. Anything less than that, and the business is going backwards. Anything over that is profit. Nationally, most successful businesses operate at a minimum 12% profit. If we add that to the break even we get $205.13. Assuming that this company is upstanding, does an awesome job without over zealously upselling, uses their inventory of equipment to the best advantage of the customer in whatever way needed, and they charge $198 for each service call, is that "fair?" That's twice as much as the other guy charges, in some cases for the same job. The business, no matter how "nice," is barely hanging on. They will struggle to replace and update equipment as needed, and won't have a lot of cash reserves for unexpected expenditures or even Christmas bonuses for the employees. Is $198 fair to both the customer and the business owner? No, it's not. He's not turning a "fair" profit.

If he decides he wants to run at a 15% profit margin instead of 12%, which isn't at all lavish, his call charge goes to $210.62. Suppose he charges $211. Is that fair? It's well over double what the Datsun guy charges. 

Then take into consideration that cost of living and building lease and call volume and so forth, which all play into overhead and therefore cost of service, varies widely from region to region across the country. There are so many variables that it is impossible to nail down a number for you that you can run with. Impossible. I am not giving you grief or crap or the runaround. Just the simple truth. Your question is impossible to answer. Got that? One more time for good measure. IMPOSSIBLE! I posted earlier the range that could be considered "fair" and I still hold to that. Although it sounded and no doubt was sarcastic, it is as close as anybody on plumbingzone.com will be able to get, unless someone feels the stretch the price range at one end or the other.

You have been asking the same question over and over. You are asking experienced business owners, myself included, what is a fair price for sewer and drain cleaning. These business owners have been answering you time and again, but since it's not what you expect or want to hear you disqualify it. Sit up and pay attention. Clear the cookies from your mind and reread the thread. There is a lot of sarcasm because, after answering the same question over and over as well as it could possibly be answered and being told that's not what you want, we get to a point of "stupid questions get stupid answers," but in between is the answer to every question you have asked, no matter how many different ways you've tried to word it.


----------



## sierra2000

Tounces said:


> You act like you can just charge whatever you want, and you will get the exact same amount of business regardless.


I think you're missing the point. It's not about charging whatever you want. The key word is crunch your numbers. Maybe, and it's more likely you don't know what I mean by crunch your numbers. There is actually a software program out there and more than a few, that determine for you what you as a business owner, based on what you pay out yearly to stay in business, should be charging to get your investment back plus a profit. You shouldn't have to pull a number out the air. And if you're doing it right you will and should expect to lose some customers but so what. There'll always be someone willing to work cheaper than you. I have a disclosure right on the front of my invoice that says in bold type "There are other service providers willing to perform this work at a cheaper price". I'm letting them know up front if you're looking for the cheapest price I'm not the plumber for you. You don't want to make everyone your customer. I'd rather work 4 jobs and make a $1000 rather than work 10 jobs and make $1000. There are customers for the low baller, high baller and in between. Charge what you're supposed to and keep the right customers not the wrong ones.


----------



## 4Aces Plumbing

sierra2000 said:


> I think you're missing the point. It's not about charging whatever you want. The key word is crunch your numbers. Maybe, and it's more likely you don't know what I mean by crunch your numbers. There is actually a software program out there and more than a few, that determine for you what you as a business owner, based on what you pay out yearly to stay in business, should be charging to get your investment back plus a profit. You shouldn't have to pull a number out the air. And if you're doing it right you will and should expect to lose some customers but so what. There'll always be someone willing to work cheaper than you. I have a disclosure right on the front of my invoice that says in bold type "There are other service providers willing to perform this work at a cheaper price". I'm letting them know up front if you're looking for the cheapest price I'm not the plumber for you. *You don't want to make everyone your customer.* *I'd rather work 4 jobs and make a $1000 rather than work 10 jobs and make $1000.* There are customers for the low baller, high baller and in between. Charge what you're supposed to and keep the right customers not the wrong ones.


Regardless of where you decide to move read this over, and over again. Learn from it. 

Unless you want to be the guy that tells his customers "everyone else is a crook!" (Or maybe you like old (out dated) equipment, '74 Datsun, and Ramen noodles..)


----------



## sierra2000

I struggled for years and almost went out of business to the point that I applied at other companies, but I couldn't bring myself to let go just yet, all because I thought I could charge low prices and have all the customers. I couldn't pay my business and personal bills. I lost a house. You think a customer cares if you go under? Damn!! I should have paid him more money and maybe he'd be in business still. No! They'll just call the next plumber. Wake up before you open shop.


----------



## SewerRat

You keep using the word "fair". Maybe one of the first things you will need to try to comprehend is that, as business owners, it's our responsibility to make sure a deal is fair to US first of all, and secondly that it is fair for the customer. When I first took over management of the family business that was one of the hardest lessons for me to learn. I could hardly stand to hand the bill to the customer because it seemed too high, so I often charged less than I should have. That wasn't fair to my creditors, because there were a lot of times that they had to wait far longer than they should have for their money, because I didn't have the money to pay the bills. Once I realized that I didn't have a choice but to charge what I had to charge to cover my overhead, my money problems were over. I don't carry a large sum in the bank but it is growing and our debts are getting paid down, but the bills are paid without worry and we can handle the relatively expensive repairs on our vehicles and heavy equipment without trotting to the bank every time for a loan. I am glad I finally realized that there is no shame in making a profit, and that a "fair" deal goes both ways and if I can't make a profit it's not fair. 

Oh, and guess what? Even though we charge more than we used to, our gross sales increased by 94% in 2013 compared to 2012. And some customers do think we are overcharging. You'll always have that. Some people think $20 is about right for a sewer cleaning. And, I am doing a sewer replacement this week for a guy who thought we had ripped him off until he tried other companies, and now he's back. He doesn't think we're ripping him off anymore.


----------



## 4Aces Plumbing

Sierra, respecting you more and more.. I tried to get (and keep) every customer, every job. But I let it be on the customers terms! "Oh, really? That is too much? Oh, I'm sorry, how much is fair to you?" F*** that, I wasn't even charging local "going rate" and they were knocking me around. Some just see a new one man shop as a "kick me boy" Some people will find things to complain about if you did a service for free, you don't need that customer.


----------



## plbgbiz

I was privileged many years ago to learn from Mr. Frank Blau that "the going rate" is the single most evil and damaging phrase in our trade. Countless families have been stressed, damaged, and even destroyed because of following "the going rate".

It is so cool to hear how Sierra was able to move beyond that mentality and become successful. It's no wonder he wears those cool shades.


----------



## love2surf927

Wow dude time to stop crying about how you're getting beat up around here and open your ears. I bet there are countless guys in here and elsewhere that would have killed for this kind of info before they even started, and countless others who LOST their business becausf tet wanted to be "FAIR". Stop whining and look at all this great info that has been shared with you, and realize that these are all successful business men as well as top notch plumbers. Take it or leave it but this information that has been shared with you is PRICELESS and many have gone out of business trying to be "fair". How fair is it to you when you put yourself out of business because you charged the "going rate." stop crying


----------



## Tounces

4Aces Plumbing said:


> Ahh, I see. I guess I feel as though there is so much more to a business based decision on where I would live. but just for your information my area of Montana is 120 for secondary, 225 for a mainline, 225 for a camera with DVD for customer. secondary lines make me a killing, main lines do OK, camera jobs don't make me s*** but I throw them a price and try to make a chunk off of subcontracting the replacement.


THIS! THIS is what I am looking for. Actual data that I can use. Not philosophy, not ethics debate, not theory, actual data. Ten pages, ten freaking pages it took to get to this point.

The question left is - is this average for your area, high, or low? And do you have mostly outside cleanouts for mainlines?

Some of you seem to be missing the fact that I am not starting out on my own for several years yet. So, I'm not really all that worried about cost of business yet. I am not trying to determine what I should personally charge customers. I'll do that much later. Answering questions I'm not really asking isn't helpful, no matter how informed you are on the topic. 

Besides which, I plan to let my wife run the business planning side of things when I do get to that point. She has a degree in it, and has run a corporation before.


----------



## Tounces

SewerRat said:


> And we've answered that question as plain as it can possibly be answered over and over again.
> 
> Sit up and pay attention because I'm going to try to beat this into that brain of yours, one more time.
> 
> There are way too many variables to say, for example, $175 is a fair price, across the board, for someone to have to pay for drain cleaning. "Fair" means equally beneficial to every party involved. That's where the overhead of the business comes in. A guy can go out and buy a couple used machines and toss them in the back of a 1974 Datsun mini truck and be in business. His overhead is not high, and theoretically he can charge not much more than a normal hourly rate and arguably claim he is making money. Let's say he charges the all time infamous $99. If he runs 6 calls a day he makes almost $600 per day. With a total of $2500 in equipment invested, his equipment will break even in just over 4 days. Assuming he does a good job, the customer gets a great deal. Is that "fair?" No, he shortchanges the industry. It's not fair to the full service shops that have all the specialty equipment to handle every situation, such as mainline and mini cameras, jetters with a good assortment of nozzles, newer, more reliable service vehicles, etc. It's not fair to the owner himself because he will have little chance if improving his situation and no savings for a rainy day.
> 
> Now, as far as the second company depicted goes, let's assume between the service van and all the equipment they have an equipment investment of $70,000 per vehicle/tech. This is the company you want to work for because they pay well. They pay you $7500 a month along with all the other techs. They also have 3 office personnel drawing a wage of $6000 per month which is $18,000 in wages for people who aren't out doing calls and physically making money. Then there is interest on loaned money, insurance, fuel and maintenance for all the service vans, shop rent or payment, heat and utilities for the office, etc. Let's just pick a number; say the accountant has accurately crunched the numbers and determines that the break even point of the business at current volume is $183.15 per service call. Anything less than that, and the business is going backwards. Anything over that is profit. Nationally, most successful businesses operate at a minimum 12% profit. If we add that to the break even we get $205.13. Assuming that this company is upstanding, does an awesome job without over zealously upselling, uses their inventory of equipment to the best advantage of the customer in whatever way needed, and they charge $198 for each service call, is that "fair?" That's twice as much as the other guy charges, in some cases for the same job. The business, no matter how "nice," is barely hanging on. They will struggle to replace and update equipment as needed, and won't have a lot of cash reserves for unexpected expenditures or even Christmas bonuses for the employees. Is $198 fair to both the customer and the business owner? No, it's not. He's not turning a "fair" profit.
> 
> If he decides he wants to run at a 15% profit margin instead of 12%, which isn't at all lavish, his call charge goes to $210.62. Suppose he charges $211. Is that fair? It's well over double what the Datsun guy charges.
> 
> Then take into consideration that cost of living and building lease and call volume and so forth, which all play into overhead and therefore cost of service, varies widely from region to region across the country. There are so many variables that it is impossible to nail down a number for you that you can run with. Impossible. I am not giving you grief or crap or the runaround. Just the simple truth. Your question is impossible to answer. Got that? One more time for good measure. IMPOSSIBLE! I posted earlier the range that could be considered "fair" and I still hold to that. Although it sounded and no doubt was sarcastic, it is as close as anybody on plumbingzone.com will be able to get, unless someone feels the stretch the price range at one end or the other.
> 
> You have been asking the same question over and over. You are asking experienced business owners, myself included, what is a fair price for sewer and drain cleaning. These business owners have been answering you time and again, but since it's not what you expect or want to hear you disqualify it. Sit up and pay attention. Clear the cookies from your mind and reread the thread. There is a lot of sarcasm because, after answering the same question over and over as well as it could possibly be answered and being told that's not what you want, we get to a point of "stupid questions get stupid answers," but in between is the answer to every question you have asked, no matter how many different ways you've tried to word it.


Well, your comparison is apples to oranges for one. An actual company has a reputation to stand behind - a One man operation does not. Most customers realize there is much less risk to going with a larger company. So that justifies the higher price. Also, warranty is usually better with a larger company as well. And appearance. And professionalism. 

That being said, it's bogus to say that a one man outfit shortchanges the industry, because they offer a different level of risk. Generally that's what every customer faces when they need to hire a drain cleaner. Risk-assessment. Not all of them realize it, but that's what they're usually paying for. That isn't to say some companies are high priced and still a large risk, but it's a generality. 

The business owners here have answered but in a way that isn't really useful to someone who will be working for another company for awhile yet.


----------



## love2surf927

Tounces said:


> THIS! THIS is what I am looking for. Actual data that I can use. Not philosophy, not ethics debate, not theory, actual data. Ten pages, ten freaking pages it took to get to this point.
> 
> The question left is - is this average for your area, high, or low? And do you have mostly outside cleanouts for mainlines?
> 
> Some of you seem to be missing the fact that I am not starting out on my own for several years yet. So, I'm not really all that worried about cost of business yet. I am not trying to determine what I should personally charge customers. I'll do that much later. Answering questions I'm not really asking isn't helpful, no matter how informed you are on the topic.
> 
> Besides which, I plan to let my wife run the business planning side of things when I do get to that point. She has a degree in it, and has run a corporation before.


Your still missing the point your employer is a business owner, there is no such thing as "fair." but you are obviously not going to connect the dots.


----------



## Tounces

love2surf927 said:


> Wow dude time to stop crying about how you're getting beat up around here and open your ears. I bet there are countless guys in here and elsewhere that would have killed for this kind of info before they even started, and countless others who LOST their business becausf tet wanted to be "FAIR". Stop whining and look at all this great info that has been shared with you, and realize that these are all successful business men as well as top notch plumbers. Take it or leave it but this information that has been shared with you is PRICELESS and many have gone out of business trying to be "fair". How fair is it to you when you put yourself out of business because you charged the "going rate." stop crying


To be honest with you this is all pretty much "Business 101". I'm pretty sure most guys go under because they never took so much as a single business course. Being a plumber does not make you a smart business owner.

As I said though - I'm not worried about that right now because I need to build up some funds before actually starting out on my own, and I already have someone with far more than enough experience to plan out an appropriate pricing and expense structure.


----------



## love2surf927

Tounces said:


> THIS! THIS is what I am looking for. Actual data that I can use. Not philosophy, not ethics debate, not theory, actual data. Ten pages, ten freaking pages it took to get to this point.
> 
> The question left is - is this average for your area, high, or low? And do you have mostly outside cleanouts for mainlines?
> 
> Some of you seem to be missing the fact that I am not starting out on my own for several years yet. So, I'm not really all that worried about cost of business yet. I am not trying to determine what I should personally charge customers. I'll do that much later. Answering questions I'm not really asking isn't helpful, no matter how informed you are on the topic.
> 
> Besides which, I plan to let my wife run the business planning side of things when I do get to that point. She has a degree in it, and has run a corporation before.


Did you ever stop to think about why a "reasonable" rate could vary so much depending on location? Rates may seem pretty reasonable but maybe not when the average two bedroom home in the area is 2000+ per month in rent, so many variables but you're just not getting it. What everyone is trying to get you to understand is the business owners side of the fence because there is always more than one way to look at things, your looking at it all with a closed mind and whining because you're not getting what to wanted, read between the lines.

Edit: some business owners may be offended because you think they're "ripping people off" because you dont have a clue how much it's costing to run the business. A service plumber offers a service, if the customer feels the service is worth the price it's a fair deal period. Smart businesses don't pull prices out of their as$es because they're customers think that's "fair."


----------



## Tounces

love2surf927 said:


> Did you ever stop to think about why a "reasonable" rate could vary so much depending on location? Rates may seem pretty reasonable but maybe not when the average two bedroom home in the area is 2000+ per month in rent, so many variables but you're just not getting it. What everyone is trying to get you to understand is the business owners side of the fence because there is always more than one way to look at things, your looking at it all with a closed mind and whining because you're not getting what to wanted, read between the lines.


Yes, it does vary by location. That's pretty much why I am inquiring.


----------



## love2surf927

Tounces said:


> Yes, it does vary by location. That's pretty much why I am inquiring.


But why? You say you're going to move somewhere because they are getting 300-400 dollars per drain (and customers aren't whining) but your home/apartment costs 2500 dollars a month. Now how "reasonable" is it? Maybe the same as the guy charging 150 for the same service but in his area the same home/apt costs 1250 per month. Get what I'm saying??? It's not black and white like you seem to think, prices are relative to many factors. I live in a very expensive area near the beach in southern California and maybe you can charge more here but it doesn't translate to profit.


----------



## Tounces

Also - I can easily research cost of living in an area, and then do a comparison based on what companies charge in an area vs the cost of living, and figure out the ideal place to live.

And yes, where I move to IS, in fact, a business decision for me.


----------



## sierra2000

plbgbiz said:


> I was privileged many years ago to learn from Mr. Frank Blau that "the going rate" is the single most evil and damaging phrase in our trade. Countless families have been stressed, damaged, and even destroyed because of following "the going rate". It is so cool to hear how Sierra was able to move beyond that mentality and become successful. It's no wonder he wears those cool shades.


Coming across Frank Blau's books and reading his articles was when the light bulb went on for me. I talked to him on the phone one time and the first thing he asked me was how to properly price this job at the proper price and markup. Of course I got it wrong.


----------



## Leach713

This guy is a Retard!!!
Enough said prices don't meant crap when you VALUE matters!!!!!!
Customer would pay what ever the prices it is at long you BUILD VALUE!!!!!!
Keyword Value


----------



## Tounces

love2surf927 said:


> But why? You say you're going to move somewhere because they are getting 300-400 dollars per drain (and customers aren't whining) but your home/apartment costs 2500 dollars a month. Now how "reasonable" is it? Maybe the same as the guy charging 150 for the same service but in his area the same home/apt costs 1250 per month. Get what I'm saying??? It's not black and white like you seem to think, prices are relative to many factors. I live in a very expensive area near the beach in southern California and maybe you can charge more here but it doesn't translate to profit.


You know Hawaii still has those "99 dollar drain opening" promotions that drive down prices?

So no, average drain prices do not in fact directly reflect cost of living. If that were the case, I could easily have done the research myself.


----------



## love2surf927

Tounces said:


> Also - I can easily research cost of living in an area, and then do a comparison based on what companies charge in an area vs the cost of living, and figure out the ideal place to live.
> 
> And yes, where I move to IS, in fact, a business decision for me.


Well sounds like you have it all figured out what do you need us for? Why don't you just start calling around and asking what they charge, these people are only trying to help you learn valuable lessons. You can also easily research the prices of other companies. You came here asking what we thought was "fair" or "reasonable" and you got hit with the truth from many SUCCESSFUL business owners, there is no such thing!!!


----------



## Tounces

Leach713 said:


> This guy is a Retard!!!
> Enough said prices don't meant crap when you VALUE matters!!!!!!
> Customer would pay what ever the prices it is at long you BUILD VALUE!!!!!!
> Keyword Value


Greeaaaat. The next time my cell phone provider wants me to pay the bill, I'll just tell them that since I VALUE their service so much, I shouldn't have to.


----------



## love2surf927

Tounces said:


> You know Hawaii still has those "99 dollar drain opening" promotions that drive down prices?
> 
> So no, average drain prices do not in fact directly reflect cost of living. If that were the case, I could easily have done the research myself.


You really need some business training. You think companies are making it on 99 dollar drain cleaning hahaha. Still don't get it how old are you you act like a teenager.


----------



## Tounces

love2surf927 said:


> Well sounds like you have it all figured out what do you need us for? Why don't you just start calling around and asking what they charge, these people are only trying to help you learn valuable lessons. You can also easily research the prices of other companies. You came here asking what we thought was "fair" or "reasonable" and you got hit with the truth from many SUCCESSFUL business owners, there is no such thing!!!


No, see, I can't easily research prices of other companies, or I would.

Most places will NOT tell you their prices, I mean, they won't even tell customers till they get to the door, so why would they tell some random inquirer?


----------



## Tounces

love2surf927 said:


> You really need some business training. You think companies are making it on 99 dollar drain cleaning hahaha. Still don't get it how old are you you act like a teenager.


No, I don't. I never said companies were making it on that. However, companies who use the "bait and switch" method often drive down profits and/or prices for other companies in the area who try to "match" them.


----------



## love2surf927

Tounces said:


> No, see, I can't easily research prices of other companies, or I would.
> 
> Most places will NOT tell you their prices, I mean, they won't even tell customers till they get to the door, so why would they tell some random inquirer?


Okay dude well I think you're at the end of your leash trying here you asked you got answers. Not what you wanted so give it a rest, try something else because apparently the knowledge some have shared here has gone right over your head. You're focus is in the wrong area.


----------



## love2surf927

Tounces said:


> No, I don't. I never said companies were making it on that. However, companies who use the "bait and switch" method often drive down profits and/or prices for other companies in the area who try to "match" them.


And your point is? They're everywhere can't escape them, doesn't mean other businesses are try to "match" it, only if they don't know how to sell a "service" as opposed to a price. Customers only concerned with price aren't the ones you want to bother with they're not worth it I learned the hard way.


----------



## plbgbiz

Tounces said:


> Well, your comparison is apples to oranges for one. An actual company has a reputation to stand behind - a One man operation does not. Most customers realize there is much less risk to going with a larger company. So that justifies the higher price. Also, warranty is usually better with a larger company as well. And appearance. And professionalism....


All I can think to say at this point is, WOW. You are so ignorant of basic market and business principles but yet you think you can comprehend fair vs. unfair pricing. Not to mention that you have the nerve to suggest that what has been shared with you wasn't specific and doesn't apply.

For the sake of your hopes to be in business some day and/or be the bread winner of your household, don't you dare show this thread to your future business partner for fear that she may fire you.


----------



## love2surf927

plbgbiz said:


> All I can think to say at this point is, WOW. You are so ignorant of basic market and business principles but yet you think you can comprehend fair vs. unfair pricing. Not to mention that you have the nerve to suggest that what has been shared with you wasn't specific and doesn't apply.
> 
> For the sake of your hopes to be in business some day and/or be the bread winner of your household, don't you dare show this thread to your future business partner for fear that she may fire you.


Well said sir.... As usual


----------



## Drain Pro

Tounces said:


> No, I don't. I never said companies were making it on that. However, companies who use the "bait and switch" method often drive down profits and/or prices for other companies in the area who try to "match" them.


 Don't concern yourself with what others are charging. You need to figure out what you need to make to be profitable. Don't be greedy. Then go out and perform your service better than anyone else, or at least try to. That's my method and so far I've been very successful.


----------



## Tounces

love2surf927 said:


> And your point is? They're everywhere can't escape them, doesn't mean other businesses are try to "match" it, only if they don't know how to sell a "service" as opposed to a price. Customers only concerned with price aren't the ones you want to bother with they're not worth it I learned the hard way.


Yeah, well, tell that to the last company I worked for.

One of places around here charges a 99 dollar drain opening, so the company I worked for had to add a "90 dollar drain opening" special to our rates. 

Except, of course, they didn't charge a "show up at the door" price of 50-150, so all we got comm off of was the freaking 90 bucks a lot of the time.


----------



## Tounces

Drain Pro said:


> Don't concern yourself with what others are charging. You need to figure out what you need to make to be profitable. Then go out and perform your service better than anyone else, or at least try to. That's my method and so far I've been very successful.


I'm starting to wonder if I am speaking the wrong language here.

I am not starting a business for quite awhile yet, and this thread is not about that.


----------



## Drain Pro

Tounces said:


> I'm starting to wonder if I am speaking the wrong language here. I am not starting a business for quite awhile yet, and this thread is not about that.


 But contained in my response, is the answer to your fair price question. There is no set dollar amount, it's all relative to your expenses and your market. You've been given a lot of good advice in this thread. My suggestion to you is to go back and re-read this entire thread before you post again. The answers are here. No disrespect but, close your mouth and open your ears.


----------



## plbgbiz

Tounces said:


> No, I don't. I never said companies were making it on that. However, companies who use the "bait and switch" method often drive down profits and/or prices for other companies in the area who try to "match" them.


Got that figured out with your 2 years of experience rodding drains? My oh my, you are going to be so disappointed when you realize the B&S companies are helping other companies to raise prices. 

Before she fires you, see if you can get your future partner to explain the principle of "loss leaders" along with its benefits to the countless legitimate companies nationwide that use them.


----------



## plbgbiz

Tounces said:


> I'm starting to wonder if I am speaking the wrong language here.
> 
> I am not starting a business for quite awhile yet, and this thread is not about that.


You asked about the pricing established by businesses. Did you not want the answer? Business questions get business answers.


----------



## SewerRat

Tounces said:


> Also - I can easily research cost of living in an area, and then do a comparison based on what companies charge in an area vs the cost of living, and figure out the ideal place to live.
> 
> And yes, where I move to IS, in fact, a business decision for me.


Well then use your browser to find some sewer and drain companies in the same areas where you are researching cost of living and price shop them and do your own calculations since you seem to think your smarter than the 50 or so people you asked for advice.


----------



## Tounces

plbgbiz said:


> You asked about the pricing established by businesses. Did you not want the answer? Business questions get business answers.


Allow me to restate my original question - 

"I've worked for a few different companies in different areas, and I'm sure prices do vary by what city you're in, but where you're at, what do you consider reasonable?"

I'm not sure why there is so much confusion here. I was asking for a specific number, as to what you would consider a reasonable price to charge for a drain based on the area you live in.

Not an explanation as to why. Not how you calculate the number. Just what you consider "reasonable", in numeric terms, so I have a starting point for what cities have higher rates and I can compare it to their cost of living.


----------



## Drain Pro

Tounces said:


> Allow me to restate my original question - "I've worked for a few different companies in different areas, and I'm sure prices do vary by what city you're in, but where you're at, what do you consider reasonable?" I'm not sure why there is so much confusion here. I was asking for a specific number, as to what you would consider a reasonable price to charge for a drain based on the area you live in. Not an explanation as to why. Not how you calculate the number. Just what you consider "reasonable", in numeric terms, so I have a starting point for what cities have higher rates and I can compare it to their cost of living.


What your not understanding is that our numbers would be of no use to you. If I told you what I think is reasonable in my area, may not be reasonable in yours. Once again, THERE IS NO SET NUMBER. The cost of doing business in your specific area determines your number.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

$5000000000.00. Sounds fair 

Price will range from place to place U need to ask some one in ur area

But ether you already know the answer to ur question or u just need to hang up the snake and go flip burgers !!!


----------



## Drain Pro

I'm in New York City. The cost of doing business is very high here, prob higher than most other places. So if someone in Kansas charged what I charge here, they'd most likely be overpriced. If I charged what a guy in some small town charged, I'd go under. Understand?


----------



## Tounces

Drain Pro said:


> What your not understanding is that our numbers would be of no use to you. If I told you what I think is reasonable in my area, may not be reasonable in yours. Once again, THERE IS NO SET NUMBER. The cost of doing business in your specific area determines your number.



I am asking about YOUR area. Not mine. I don't care about mine, and I already know it anyway - why do you think I listed all that data in my very first post? As I said, I am MOVING.


----------



## plbgbiz

Tounces said:


> Allow me to restate my original question -
> 
> "I've worked for a few different companies in different areas, and I'm sure prices do vary by what city you're in, but where you're at, what do you consider reasonable?"
> 
> I'm not sure why there is so much confusion here. I was asking for a specific number, as to what you would consider a reasonable price to charge for a drain based on the area you live in.
> 
> Not an explanation as to why. Not how you calculate the number. Just what you consider "reasonable", in numeric terms, so I have a starting point for what cities have higher rates and I can compare it to their cost of living.


And herein lies the disconnect. Your perception of what you thought the answer should be has clouded your ability to understand what the answer really is.

With one hammer after another Sierra, Drain Pro, Surf, and others are trying to beat it into you. How you determine the price and what you provide for that price is what makes it reasonable. The actual billable hour rate or pricing method used is irrelevant. If only you could understand how well your question has been answered. 

As has been suggested...re-read this thread. The specifics you seek are there.


----------



## Drain Pro

Tounces said:


> I am asking about YOUR area. Not mine. I don't care about mine, and I already know it anyway - why do you think I listed all that data in my very first post? As I said, I am MOVING.


I'll tell you what. If you wind up in NYC let me know. Then I'll tell you what I believe to be a fair price around here. Until then, I'm done.


----------



## Tounces

plbgbiz said:


> And herein lies the disconnect. Your perception of what you thought the answer should be has clouded your ability to understand what the answer really is.
> 
> With one hammer after another Sierra, Drain Pro, Surf, and others are trying to beat it into you. How you determine the price and what you provide for that price is what makes it reasonable. The actual billable hour rate or pricing method used is irrelevant. If only you could understand how well your question has been answered.
> 
> As has been suggested...re-read this thread. The specifics you seek are there.


I've only seen one person post actual numbers, which is what I am looking for.

And yes, I'm aware that different people are going to charge different rates based on their own business.

However, chances are, they know what other businesses in their area charge, and they know what the average of the area is. Which, allows me to compare that to what it costs to live in an area, to determine where the most lucrative spot to move to is in this business.


----------



## plbgbiz

I know a guy in Houston that charges $85 for a drain call. I know another that $250 minimum for the same call.

Both prices are fair and reasonable. This is why the information others have shared is so important. Fairness and reasonableness is not determined by the amount. It is determined (among other things) by the level of service and an established budget.


----------



## Tounces

Drain Pro said:


> I'll tell you what. If you wind up in NYC let me know. Then I'll tell you what I believe to be a fair price around here. Until then, I'm done.


Thank you. I would rather hear "I don't want to ****ing tell you what we charge", than all this other round-about stuff.


----------



## Drain Pro

Tounces said:


> I've only seen one person post actual numbers, which is what I am looking for. And yes, I'm aware that different people are going to charge different rates based on their own business. However, chances are, they know what other businesses in their area charge, and they know what the average of the area is. Which, allows me to compare that to what it costs to live in an area, to determine where the most lucrative spot to move to is in this business.


 I can't believe I'm going to continue with this but there is no most lucrative spot. All spots are lucrative if you run your business correctly which means that what you charge is in proportion to your costs. Let's say I charge 200 dollars but you charge 100. Using your logic you'd think that NYC is the place to be because you can double your rates. But what if my costs are double yours? Then we are about the same profit wise. Understand? So for the last time, it all depends on your costs.


----------



## Tounces

plbgbiz said:


> I know a guy in Houston that charges $85 for a drain call. I know another that $250 minimum for the same call.
> 
> Both prices are fair and reasonable. This is why the information others have shared is so important. Fairness and reasonableness is not determined by the amount. It is determined (among other things) by the level of service and an established budget.


Fair to the business owner. What exactly is the customer getting for that extra 165 bucks?


----------



## gordyloo

Tounces said:


> Thank you. I would rather hear "I don't want to ****ing tell you what we charge", than all this other round-about stuff.


Your an ungrateful....

Nobody can be this stupid.


----------



## plbgbiz

No name calling please.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

We charge a hourly rate. Faucet repair - to drain cleaning. It's the same price. Res 95 hr 142.50 after hours. Com 105 hr 157.50 after hours. One hour min. 1/2 hr at a time after that. After hours clock starts when I call you and u say u want services. And clock stops after I get back home. I will most likley bring my apprentice he's 40$ hr so after hrs would be 182.50 and regular hrs would be 135 hr. it's up to me if I want to charge for my apprentice 
I only do service when I'm on call but when I do. I get paid and so does the company. I do t go out for change 

Happy now ?


----------



## sierra2000

Tounces said:


> Allow me to restate my original question - "I've worked for a few different companies in different areas, and I'm sure prices do vary by what city you're in, but where you're at, what do you consider reasonable?" I'm not sure why there is so much confusion here. I was asking for a specific number, as to what you would consider a reasonable price to charge for a drain based on the area you live in. Not an explanation as to why. Not how you calculate the number. Just what you consider "reasonable", in numeric terms, so I have a starting point for what cities have higher rates and I can compare it to their cost of living.


 What you're asking and what you don't want to hear is the problem. There should be no such thing as a reasonable price to clean a drain. And you can't get around not wanting to hear about crunching numbers when you're trying to determine what price to charge. THE PRICE IS THE PRICE!! And the business owner should determine that price by crunching the numbers. Maybe what you want to hear is in Los Angeles there are plumbers who charge $49 to clear any drain any time and in this same city there are plumbers who charge $550 to clear a main line. And if you throw jetting into it, some charge $300 and some charge $1700 and everywhere in between, because their overhead is different. I don't know how it is in other states but out here there is no such thing as a going rate. I'll keep my two cents to myself and be done with this thread.


----------



## Pac Rim Plumber

Plumbing Biz,

There was a post regarding going into business and how to figure costs and what not, with allot of warnings to not go into business if you did not get it. Do you know the one I am talking about, I was telling a coworker about it the other day and I also think this young individual Tounces should read it.


----------



## 4Aces Plumbing

Tounces said:


> Fair to the business owner. *What exactly is the customer getting for that extra 165 bucks?*


Oh, wow.. 

It's been fun guys, Good luck Bro.

Peace, I'm out...


----------



## love2surf927

Tounces said:


> Thank you. I would rather hear "I don't want to ****ing tell you what we charge", than all this other round-about stuff.


Wow, quite the opposite actually, pros sharing valuable info, I believe you are the one saying "I don't want to hear your ****ing bs answers" because all everyone is trying to say is THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS REASONABLE PRICING IT IS DEPENDANT ON MANY FACTORS MOST IMPORTANTLY COST OF DOING BUSINESS. You think you're going to find a pot at the end of the rainbow but it's not there, at least not at the end of the rainbow you're chasing. There is no magical plumbing land where drain cleaning is do much more lucrative than others. You can choose ignorance but contrary to your opinion these gentleman are trying to help you understand how YOU'RE QUESTION IS SERIOUSLY FLAWED!! But at this point you seem too stubborn to see what we are trying to get across.


----------



## Leach713

Tounces said:


> Greeaaaat. The next time my cell phone provider wants me to pay the bill, I'll just tell them that since I VALUE their service so much, I shouldn't have to.


There you go buddy 
Now get the ball rolling out of here !!


----------



## Tounces

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> We charge a hourly rate. Faucet repair - to drain cleaning. It's the same price. Res 95 hr 142.50 after hours. Com 105 hr 157.50 after hours. One hour min. 1/2 hr at a time after that. After hours clock starts when I call you and u say u want services. And clock stops after I get back home. I will most likley bring my apprentice he's 40$ hr so after hrs would be 182.50 and regular hrs would be 135 hr. it's up to me if I want to charge for my apprentice
> I only do service when I'm on call but when I do. I get paid and so does the company. I do t go out for change
> 
> Happy now ?


Yes, that's actual data I can work with.


----------



## Tounces

Pac Rim Plumber said:


> Plumbing Biz,
> 
> There was a post regarding going into business and how to figure costs and what not, with allot of warnings to not go into business if you did not get it. Do you know the one I am talking about, I was telling a coworker about it the other day and I also think this young individual Tounces should read it.


I read it. I guess you didn't read the part about the fact I'm not going into business anytime soon.


----------



## Tounces

Oh just never mind. Had I known that this was a business owners forum, and not a drain cleaners forum, I would have never signed up. I want a perspective from someone who is actually doing what I do currently, which means working for someone else.

I dunno, most of the other guys who are drain techs I know don't even know how to use the internet, so that's why no one like that is here.


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

love2surf927 said:


> Wow, quite the opposite actually, pros sharing valuable info, I believe you are the one saying "I don't want to hear your ****ing bs answers" because all everyone is trying to say is THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS REASONABLE PRICING IT IS DEPENDANT ON MANY FACTORS MOST IMPORTANTLY COST OF DOING BUSINESS. You think you're going to find a pot at the end of the rainbow but it's not there, at least not at the end of the rainbow you're chasing. There is no magical plumbing land where drain cleaning is do much more lucrative than others. You can choose ignorance but contrary to your opinion these gentleman are trying to help you understand how YOU'RE QUESTION IS SERIOUSLY FLAWED!! But at this point you seem too stubborn to see what we are trying to get across.


My sentiments exactly. I'm not a business owner but will be soon and have learned much from the wisdom expressed here on this thread by the generosity of those who have taken the risk to put all of themselves on the line and start a business. The info here for running your own biz is just mind blowing. I hope you can see it someday, Tounces. Good luck, my friend.


----------



## HSI

Tounces,
Move out to Arizona and come to work for me. I will only charge $99 per drain cleaning if you feel that's fair to the customer? Of coarse I can only pay you $8.00 per billable hour with one hour max per job. That would seem fair for my business and the customer. Win/win


----------



## mightypipe

HSI said:


> Tounces, Move out to Arizona and come to work for me. I will only charge $99 per drain cleaning if you feel that's fair to the customer? Of coarse I can only pay you $8.00 per billable hour with one hour max per job. That would seem fair for my business and the customer. Win/win


I'll give you $9.00 per billable hour, but you'll have to be willing to learn some plumbing skills!!


----------



## love2surf927

Best Darn Sewer said:


> My sentiments exactly. I'm not a business owner but will be soon and have learned much from the wisdom expressed here on this thread by the generosity of those who have taken the risk to put all of themselves on the line and start a business. The info here for running your own biz is just mind blowing. I hope you can see it someday, Tounces. Good luck, my friend.


I joined this forum right after getting my license and I started my business shortly thereafter. I was not prepared to run a business but I am a third generation contractor so its in my family though I was nowhere near ready to go out on my own financial or any other way really. The amount of knowledge I have gained from this forum in the last two years could possibly take people a whole lifetime to learn without a resource like this and I appreciate it to no end. I have been dragged across the coals here a few times but in the end it all just serves as a learning experience.


----------



## Hillside

Hoosier Plumber said:


> A root problem.
> 
> Don't have a camera at this time, but he is sold on the idea of following up when I get the camera.


Lol soooooooooooooo
Did u have the balls enough to go back in? Lol, glad you got it out, that's a terrible feeling when that happens.

how much did you charge? Why? What makes you charge that amount? Did you call your comp and ask what they would charge and them charge that? Bahahahhahahahahah 

(Disregard that last half was just combining both things in this thread) lol but really, I'm glad you got your cable out


----------



## gordyloo

Tounces said:


> Oh just never mind. Had I known that this was a business owners forum, and not a drain cleaners forum, I would have never signed up. I want a perspective from someone who is actually doing what I do currently, which means working for someone else.
> 
> I dunno, most of the other guys who are drain techs I know don't even know how to use the internet, so that's why no one like that is here.


Mods may edit me again but that doesn't mean he's not a ****ing PUTZ!

I cleaned a drain or two before getting my license and guess what. I still clean drains. Annd im just an employee. You have got to be the dumbest rock in the bag.

Some guy gave you his hourly rates and you say that is something you can work with. That'll be the freekin day. My boss is probably a dbag because of dbags like you.

Apply. Find out what they pay. Get the job and just shut up and do your job. Why you moving every 6 weeks. On the most wanted poster?


----------



## Will

I'm going to say it. Drain Cleaning or Plumbing is probably not for you. Your wasting your time in that field. 

Have you thought about getting into another type of job like say Oil Field?


----------



## Hoosier Plumber

Okay, you want numbers to work with to base a decision about moving right? 

With the exception of the Chicago area it is my understanding that from the West to East Northern Indiana we have rates that range from 99.00 - 250.00 for main lines snaking only. Jetting ranges from as low as 250.00 - 750.00. 

We fall at a minimum 150.00 for a main line, but I've been considering going higher as I want to make more per job. It's a tough sell though. Secondary bills put at our hourly rate but an average main and secondary would bill around 225.00 

Let's see rent for a 3 bedroom ranges from a minimum 550.00 a month for a **** hole and about 850.00 for a decent joint. 

That should cover most if not all of the counties up here and everywhere in between. Watch out for the really small cities that are out of range of the decent sized places, those are where the low end guys are the bigger cities are where the better rices are charged, but then again rent cost more there, but the numbers should do what you need. 

So based on this information you can now consider Indiana. Ask the guys from Indianapolis what the going rate is as I don't know. 

Oh yeah, the companies charging the higher rates are usually the commission based outfits so that should help. I've heard 20 - 28 percent is the range.


----------



## Drain Pro

Tounces said:


> Oh just never mind. Had I known that this was a business owners forum, and not a drain cleaners forum, I would have never signed up. I want a perspective from someone who is actually doing what I do currently, which means working for someone else. I dunno, most of the other guys who are drain techs I know don't even know how to use the internet, so that's why no one like that is here.


I think it's fair to say that nearly all of us business owners were just employees at one time. I learned most of what I now know about business as an employee. I did this by watching and listening. When I felt the time was right, I was prepared to make my move and start up my own thing. You'd be doing yourself a great disservice by choosing not to listen to the advise that's been offered to you.


----------



## Tommy plumber

Tounces said:


> Fair to the business owner. What exactly is the customer getting for that extra 165 bucks?












Well, for one thing, one shop may give a {1} year warranty and the other may not give a warranty. Perhaps one shop has neat collared uniforms with the plumber's name on it, whereas the other guy shows up with shorts and a tattered t-shirt. One shop may have new expensive drain cleaning equipment and lay down drop cloths, and the other company may have old equipment and not lay down drop cloths. One company may have a newer vehicle, the other may have an older high-mileage pick up truck.

There may be huge differences in the level of service that each company provides in the hypothetical scenario.

Which company do you want to be? That's the question that you must ask yourself.


----------



## affordabledrain

Hoosier Plumber said:


> Okay, you want numbers to work with to base a decision about moving right?
> 
> With the exception of the Chicago area it is my understanding that from the West to East Northern Indiana we have rates that range from 99.00 - 250.00 for main lines snaking only. Jetting ranges from as low as 250.00 - 750.00.
> 
> We fall at a minimum 150.00 for a main line, but I've been considering going higher as I want to make more per job. It's a tough sell though. Secondary bills put at our hourly rate but an average main and secondary would bill around 225.00
> 
> Let's see rent for a 3 bedroom ranges from a minimum 550.00 a month for a **** hole and about 850.00 for a decent joint.
> 
> That should cover most if not all of the counties up here and everywhere in between. Watch out for the really small cities that are out of range of the decent sized places, those are where the low end guys are the bigger cities are where the better rices are charged, but then again rent cost more there, but the numbers should do what you need.
> 
> So based on this information you can now consider Indiana. Ask the guys from Indianapolis what the going rate is as I don't know.
> 
> Oh yeah, the companies charging the higher rates are usually the commission based outfits so that should help. I've heard 20 - 28 percent is the range.


Hey Hoosier where are you located


----------



## Tounces

Tommy plumber said:


> Well, for one thing, one shop may give a {1} year warranty and the other may not give a warranty. Perhaps one shop has neat collared uniforms with the plumber's name on it, whereas the other guy shows up with shorts and a tattered t-shirt. One shop may have new expensive drain cleaning equipment and lay down drop cloths, and the other company may have old equipment and not lay down drop cloths. One company may have a newer vehicle, the other may have an older high-mileage pick up truck.
> 
> There may be huge differences in the level of service that each company provides in the hypothetical scenario.
> 
> Which company do you want to be? That's the question that you must ask yourself.


Those are tangible differences that will actually mean something to the customer.


----------



## SewerRat

Hoosier Plumber said:


> Okay, you want numbers to work with to base a decision about moving right?
> 
> With the exception of the Chicago area it is my understanding that from the West to East Northern Indiana we have rates that range from 99.00 - 250.00 for main lines snaking only. Jetting ranges from as low as 250.00 - 750.00.
> 
> We fall at a minimum 150.00 for a main line, but I've been considering going higher as I want to make more per job. It's a tough sell though. Secondary bills put at our hourly rate but an average main and secondary would bill around 225.00
> 
> Let's see rent for a 3 bedroom ranges from a minimum 550.00 a month for a **** hole and about 850.00 for a decent joint.
> 
> That should cover most if not all of the counties up here and everywhere in between. Watch out for the really small cities that are out of range of the decent sized places, those are where the low end guys are the bigger cities are where the better rices are charged, but then again rent cost more there, but the numbers should do what you need.
> 
> So based on this information you can now consider Indiana. Ask the guys from Indianapolis what the going rate is as I don't know.
> 
> Oh yeah, the companies charging the higher rates are usually the commission based outfits so that should help. I've heard 20 - 28 percent is the range.


What kind of call volume could I expect, if I were to move to your area and work for the companies you are referring to? I'll need that information as well. This is an important decision for me and I want to be smart about it.


----------



## plbgbiz

Pac Rim Plumber said:


> Plumbing Biz,
> 
> There was a post regarding going into business and how to figure costs and what not, with allot of warnings to not go into business if you did not get it. Do you know the one I am talking about, I was telling a coworker about it the other day and I also think this young individual Tounces should read it.


http://www.plumbingzone.com/f4/more-than-owning-job-17477/


----------



## Letterrip

Tounces said:


> Those are tangible differences that will actually mean something to the customer.


I don't exactly agree with this statement. Many of the things mentioned are those that customers don't give a second thought to when calling in. They only complain when many of these elements are missing, but accuse the contractor of ripping them off when the contractor includes the cost associated with having them in his/her pricing.


----------



## Drain Pro

Letterrip said:


> I don't exactly agree with this statement. Many of the things mentioned are those that customers don't give a second thought to when calling in. They only complain when many of these elements are missing, but accuse the contractor of ripping them off when the contractor includes the cost associated with having them in his/her pricing.


Very well said.


----------



## Tounces

Letterrip said:


> I don't exactly agree with this statement. Many of the things mentioned are those that customers don't give a second thought to when calling in. They only complain when many of these elements are missing, but accuse the contractor of ripping them off when the contractor includes the cost associated with having them in his/her pricing.


I'm thinking more of experienced customers than first-time customers.

The outfit I'm working for now has been around a real long time so the majority of our customers have been with us for years and years.

First time customers usually don't know crap.


----------



## Redwood

Hoosier Plumber said:


> Okay, you want numbers to work with to base a decision about moving right?
> 
> With the exception of the Chicago area it is my understanding that from the West to East Northern Indiana we have rates that range from 99.00 - 250.00 for main lines snaking only. Jetting ranges from as low as 250.00 - 750.00.
> 
> We fall at a minimum 150.00 for a main line, but I've been considering going higher as I want to make more per job. It's a tough sell though. Secondary bills put at our hourly rate but an average main and secondary would bill around 225.00
> 
> Let's see rent for a 3 bedroom ranges from a minimum 550.00 a month for a **** hole and about 850.00 for a decent joint.
> 
> That should cover most if not all of the counties up here and everywhere in between. Watch out for the really small cities that are out of range of the decent sized places, those are where the low end guys are the bigger cities are where the better rices are charged, but then again rent cost more there, but the numbers should do what you need.
> 
> So based on this information you can now consider Indiana. Ask the guys from Indianapolis what the going rate is as I don't know.
> 
> Oh yeah, the companies charging the higher rates are usually the commission based outfits so that should help. I've heard 20 - 28 percent is the range.


:laughing: Yep!

And here $175 might get you a toilet auger...
Cleaning a drain will be around $400...
Showing up with a Jetter will ding the wallet a G-Note for starters...

And $900 will rent you a slum apartment in the ghetto...
A 1/2 decent home in a 1/2 decent neighborhood will start at around $1600/mo rent...
You don't want to know what a really nice place goes for here...

If it hasn't been figured out by now, pricing isn't based on what the other guys charge... You'll need to figure that out or go broke...


----------



## SewerRat

OK, I've finally got it figured out. $99 is a fair price for drain cleaning. Tounces, look for a company that charges $99 and you should be good to go.


----------



## SewerRat

Can't believe it took 16 pages to figure this out. It's so simple.


----------



## Tounces

Redwood said:


> :laughing: Yep!
> 
> And here $175 might get you a toilet auger...
> Cleaning a drain will be around $400...
> Showing up with a Jetter will ding the wallet a G-Note for starters...
> 
> And $900 will rent you a slum apartment in the ghetto...
> A 1/2 decent home in a 1/2 decent neighborhood will start at around $1600/mo rent...
> You don't want to know what a really nice place goes for here...
> 
> If it hasn't been figured out by now, pricing isn't based on what the other guys charge... You'll need to figure that out or go broke...


Your area sounds good.

$700 a month extra rent still won't be more than making 50-60% more per job.

How strict is the code in Conn? Did they actually require outside cleanouts for houses there?


----------



## plbgbiz

Ya know, I think if Tounce rides along with RW for a week or so, many things might get corrected.


----------



## SewerRatz

Let me ask the OP this. What is a reasonable price for me to pay for my mainline machine, sink machine, lavatory and tub machine, kenotic water ram. Ro-Pump, toilet bowl auger, electric jetter, gas cart jetter, trailer jetter, 1125' of flat sewer tape, K1000 municipal drain machine, and the truck I use to haul the equipment from job to job?

What is a reasonable cost for general liability insurance?, vehicle insurance?, Phone bills?, Office space and equipment? I think you get what I am getting at.

In all honesty, it all depends on the company's overhead, and how much profit they want to earn for the company after paying the employees and the owners salary. 

Does it pay to be the cheapest like some of these rooter companies, or in my case like the Irish / Scottish Plumber? If you are about upselling repairs that are not needed, it would be well worth it due to the fact the $99 any drain scam is just a foot in the door tactic. 

We charge a rate that is fair to our customers and ourselves. We charge a $60.00 service/trip charge $45.00 machine charge, and $80.00 a half hour minimum 1 hour. So for the first hour we get $265.00 and every half hour after that is $80.00 Most jobs can be done within the first hour.


----------



## Tounces

SewerRatz said:


> We charge a rate that is fair to our customers and ourselves. .


Right, and that's the information I was trying to find out.

It doesn't even matter if you're the most expensive outfit in your area, frankly. As long as the area is supporting those prices, and you're actually getting calls, then it's data that's relevant to what I am trying to research.


----------



## Drain Pro

Tounces said:


> Right, and that's the information I was trying to find out. It doesn't even matter if you're the most expensive outfit in your area, frankly. As long as the area is supporting those prices, and you're actually getting calls, then it's data that's relevant to what I am trying to research.


What you don't seem to understand is the actual numbers are of no use to you. It's useless information in your quest to make a decision. I'll also tell you this, you're going to have a hard time getting hired or keeping a job if your focus is on the companies numbers. You should be focused on building a solid reputation/resume and being the best mechanic you can be. Make yourself invaluable to your employer. That's how you'll get top dollar.


----------



## Tounces

Drain Pro said:


> . Make yourself invaluable to your employer. That's how you'll get top dollar.


One of my first jobs in life, some 20 years ago, was Wal-mart.

And since then, I will never, ever, believe this again.

It operates on the assumption that employers somehow value their employees.


----------



## Best Darn Sewer

Wow. My mind is officially blown...

I think you're fake. You are intentionally trying to get under peoples skin. 17 pages?


----------



## sierra2000

Tounces said:


> One of my first jobs in life, some 20 years ago, was Wal-mart. And since then, I will never, ever, believe this again. It operates on the assumption that employers somehow value their employees.


Please, no one else waste valuable keystrokes trying to get through to him.


----------



## plbgbiz

Tounces said:


> One of my first jobs in life, some 20 years ago, was Wal-mart.
> 
> And since then, I will never, ever, believe this again.
> 
> It operates on the assumption that employers somehow value their employees.


I'm done trying. And I really did try.


----------



## plbgbiz

I hope you succeed Tounce but your thinking needs a serious makeover before that will ever happen.


----------



## Tounces

plbgbiz said:


> I hope you succeed Tounce but your thinking needs a serious makeover before that will ever happen.


Honestly, you assume way too much based off some posts in a web forum. My only interest here was to gather data, not become popular of well-thought of. It's not like I'm going to be working for or with any of you, and even if by coincidence someday I did, you'd have no idea who I was, nor would I have any idea who you were.

I know everyone thinks the information I am gathering is useless. But honestly, who cares? I'm sure most people consider Astrology useless, but for others, it no doubt provides a degree of comfort, even if it is total hogwash. 

My cynical view of employers has developed over a long period of time, and not without reason. I could provide you with examples as to why, but I see no point in boring you with anecdotal evidence of why I feel most employers don't really give a crap about their employees beyond seeing them as a useful tool. 

Which is why, within a couple of years or so, I will go into business for myself. This information isn't for that though - it's just for the mean time.

And while I don't DISAGREE with the information about what to charge as a business in this thread, it's not exactly deep insight, most of it is pretty much really common sense information in business, that perhaps most plumbers don't understand because they only know the part of their trade that relates to pipes, drains, and customer service. 

In Hind-sight, I should have reworded my initial post. I never wanted to cause some sort of debate over what is "reasonable". I don't really care. I only care that it's "reasonable" in the sense that it's a good balance between call volume and labor involved, so that I will get enough calls and still be paid well for my work. Overhead cost has no current bearing on me - my overhead cost is $0.00 while I am working for someone else. 

Right before I wrote that thread, I was reading customer reviews of companies in Denver, and that likely influenced my writing far more than it should have. When I see dozens of people *****ing about "$130" being "Way too high" to open a main drain in a major city like Denver, I can't help but wonder "Well what is considered reasonable there?". I suppose it's most likely those people are the minority and have no real bearing on the actual cost of doing business there.

Of course, as I said, I wasn't aware there were so many business owners here, so I assumed that most perspectives here would be that of someone who is merely an employee like myself currently. 

I did end up gathering some data, at least. And certainly, one trend is showing even if it's a little early to say - areas with higher cost of living are actually better to live in. The cost of living is less than the increased income from living there.


----------



## Drain Pro

Tounces said:


> One of my first jobs in life, some 20 years ago, was Wal-mart. And since then, I will never, ever, believe this again. It operates on the assumption that employers somehow value their employees.


Wow. You really are a lost cause. Before I finally finish with you I just want to say that before I had my own business, I did just what I suggested to you. I always strove to be the best mechanic in my shop. I worked hard, always trying to be better than the best guy. In time I made foreman as the youngest mechanic in the shop. I also became the highest paid in the shop. I eventually left that place and applied for a position in one of the oldest and most high end plumbing companies in NYC. They are very selective of who they hire, and rarely ever hire from outside. I asked for a high hourly rate and I got nearly every dollar. I then got a raise in 6 months. I never asked them what they charged because it was of no concern to me. In the interview we only discussed my resume and in the end that's how I got just about every dollar I asked for. Do what you want with my advise, I really couldn't care. But for what it's worth, my work ethic and attitude is why I've always been successful. I'll also say this, as a business owner I pay well, better than most other guys. I would never, ever hire someone with your attitude. Good luck.


----------



## Tounces

Drain Pro said:


> I never asked them what they charged because it was of no concern to me. .


If you don't make commission, obviously what they charge is of no concern to you.


----------



## Tommy plumber

SewerRat said:


> Can't believe it took 16 pages to figure this out. It's so simple.














Some people like to hear themselves talk...:laughing:


----------



## Letterrip

Tounces said:


> One of my first jobs in life, some 20 years ago, was Wal-mart.
> 
> And since then, I will never, ever, believe this again.
> 
> It operates on the assumption that employers somehow value their employees.


You use Walmart of all places as an example? I think a large, high turnover type of job like that is a poor place to base your career mindset from. 

That said, my perspective is skewed being that I have had exactly one employer in my 39 years of existence. (Family business). I know that I certainly value an employee more than and differently than I value a snake machine. I'm actually a little offended by the blanket statement. 

Anyways, back to the topic at hand, would your real question be "what would be a potential income range for a drain cleaner in your particular area?" You could then take do a cost of living analysis for the area. Since you seem not to value an employer, how they get you to that potential income and manage to sleep at night should not be of importance to you.


----------



## Tounces

Letterrip said:


> You use Walmart of all places as an example? I think a large, high turnover type of job like that is a poor place to base your career mindset from.
> 
> That said, my perspective is skewed being that I have had exactly one employer in my 39 years of existence. (Family business). I know that I certainly value an employee more than and differently than I value a snake machine. I'm actually a little offended by the blanket statement.
> 
> Anyways, back to the topic at hand, would your real question be "what would be a potential income range for a drain cleaner in your particular area?" You could then take do a cost of living analysis for the area. Since you seem not to value an employer, how they get you to that potential income and manage to sleep at night should not be of importance to you.


I've worked for a large variety of employers over the years. Wal-Mart was just the first that really burned me. It's not really that hard to recognize a place that values it's employees - and I have found VERY few such places. 

Honestly, your viewpoint is not merely skewed, it's extremely biased. One Employer, and family at that? If you include temp agencies, I've probably worked at over 50 over the years, though nearly all of them were in the first 6-7 years I was working. I can say maybe around 15-20% of employers seemed to value their employees beyond merely being a tool to be used. That strongly varies by region though - in a place like Washington state, that number is more like 5%, if that. I only assume 5% because for me it'd be more like 0% there. 


Now, as for "Potential income range" - yes, but more than that. That only tells me raw income, it doesn't tell me if I am going to be working 70 hours a week to get that income. And no, I have no desire to work for companies which are blatantly dishonest with customers. I enjoy having the freedom to upsell from a cabling to a hydroscrub, I have no desire to fool customers into thinking they need $14,000 line replacement just because they got a soft blockage one time.


----------



## Drain Pro

Tounces said:


> I've worked for a large variety of employers over the years. Wal-Mart was just the first that really burned me. It's not really that hard to recognize a place that values it's employees - and I have found VERY few such places. Honestly, your viewpoint is not merely skewed, it's extremely biased. One Employer, and family at that? If you include temp agencies, I've probably worked at over 50 over the years, though nearly all of them were in the first 6-7 years I was working. I can say maybe around 15-20% of employers seemed to value their employees beyond merely being a tool to be used. That strongly varies by region though - in a place like Washington state, that number is more like 5%, if that. I only assume 5% because for me it'd be more like 0% there. Now, as for "Potential income range" - yes, but more than that. That only tells me raw income, it doesn't tell me if I am going to be working 70 hours a week to get that income. And no, I have no desire to work for companies which are blatantly dishonest with customers. I enjoy having the freedom to upsell from a cabling to a hydroscrub, I have no desire to fool customers into thinking they need $14,000 line replacement just because they got a soft blockage one time.


 Did it ever occur to you that you're the problem and not your former employers?


----------



## Tounces

Drain Pro said:


> Did it ever occur to you that you're the problem and not your former employers?


Well I've yet to be fired.

But I suppose the fact I won't work for an ******* really limits my employment.


----------



## affordabledrain

Wow this thread is the most action the Drain section has seen in a loooong time :whistling2::whistling2:


----------



## SewerRat

I wouldn't admit it if I had worked for 50 different employers.

I was visiting with my buddy who is manager at Ferguson Waterworks the other day. He said they are looking for another full time employee. He said out of 8 or 9 applications there was maybe one or two that he would even consider interviewing. His reason? The applicants all show a job history exactly like you described... 3 month here, a month there, 6 months at the next place. Several were class A CDL drivers who were currently employed at a temp agency even though the trucking jobs are endless here. He is looking for a career guy who's in it for the long haul. 

As I said before, even if I had worked 50 jobs in my lifetime I wouldn't admit to it. I sure as h3ll wouldn't brag about it.


----------



## Redwood

Tounces said:


> Your area sounds good.
> 
> $700 a month extra rent still won't be more than making 50-60% more per job.
> 
> How strict is the code in Conn? Did they actually require outside cleanouts for houses there?


:laughing::laughing::laughing:
That's just the start...
Wait until you go to the grocery store, pay your electric bill, fill the fuel oil tank at your home, or pay your property taxes... It's the overhead son...
Better have it covered...
Have a look see here...

Plumbing Code? Outside Cleanouts?:laughing:
We have basements and that's where the cleanout will be found most of the time...
2003 IPC, but it doesn't matter...
There are a lot of homes here where indoor plumbing was retrofitted when it was invented...
You should have seen the plumbing in the 1850's home I lived in back in the 90's...:laughing:
I'm not sure what the code was when it was installed...

Reasonable Price, Going Rate? :laughing:
It's all math son...
You just have to do the math...
If it works out you have a job and make a decent living...
If it doesn't then you either make adjustments or, go under...
*Here's the magic formula....

Cost of doing business at the level of service you desire to perform + profit = your rate

Your rate = what the customer will pay (what the market will bear)*

If it doesn't add up you better make changes quickly before you run out of money...

It doesn't matter what anyone else is charging...


----------



## plbgbiz

Oh there you go again Red. Screwing up his "research" with data. :laughing:


----------



## MACPLUMB777

Tounces said:


> Your area sounds good.
> 
> $700 a month extra rent still won't be more than making 50-60% more per job.
> 
> How strict is the code in Conn? Did they actually require outside cleanouts for houses there?


:laughing: THEY DON'T USE OUTSIDE CLEAN OUTS THE SEWERS ARE AT LEAST 6' TO 10' DEEP AND ANY CLEAN OUT WOULD BE BURIED UNDER TWO TO FOUR FEET OF SNOW, VERY HARD TO FIND !


----------



## love2surf927

So you learned to not be loyal to your employer from Walmart!! Haha this is just comical, and you're going to apply that to your career in the plumbing industry, you my friend are lost. Do our trade a favor and get into a field that you can get behind.


----------

