# Opinion on how to handle a situation, PLEASE HELP!



## friedsamiam2203 (Feb 18, 2015)

Hello guys! I would like to know your opinions on how to feel about this certain situation I am in. I work for a Sewer and Plumbing Service Company in Wisconsin and work off of strictly commission. I recently sold a job to a customer for a sewer lateral lining. We have been doing liners since I have been with the company. We are interested purchasing an inverting system, and had the company we are thinking about purchasing it from come up and do a demo for us. We invert the liner with no problem, then we go to cure it with circulating hot water, the bladder then burst. While we were attempting to blow a new bladder in a portion of the bladder fell in and caused a figure 8 looking pipe. 35' of the 40' liner is still in tack, but for the last 5' we had no such luck. I then attempted to cut liner with every which way with the guy from the demoing company while the owner went on vacation, i proceeded to put in an additional 20 hours in trying to cut,grind,sand and what ever other tool we had to restore the full diameter of the pipe. We had no luck. So know we have to dig up an apron of a driveway on Main St, and are looking at 3500$ for the repair. I am being docked this 3500$ of the top of the job before I am paid my commission and getting about 600$ taken out of my pocket. Is it legit to think that I should not be penalized this much, because the owner wanted to try something new, and it did not work according to plan, and if not how do I approach my boss about this? Defiantly would appreciate some insight!


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

You need to do an intro before it gets uglier...

Click Here and make your Intro...


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

We definitely and defiantly would appreciate an intro.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

post an intro or expect to get a cold shoulder


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## friedsamiam2203 (Feb 18, 2015)

On this post or where? Not the greatest with intros, mainly why I am still single. I apologize.

Chris


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## friedsamiam2203 (Feb 18, 2015)

Intro is done, sorry guys!


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Talk to picote systems. Jake is the guy to talk to. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f23/picote-high-speed-cleaning-cutting-tools-36537/


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

We seldom use the boiler anymore for that reason. Seems like anyplace there might have been a wee bit of head we'd blow a bladder. We actually increased production by just using a pancake compressor at the jobsite after shooting the liner and coming back later after the cure.

I take it you have already tried the jetter and chain flail, and any reinstatement cutters you may have. This may be a solution short of digging.

So what you are saying is the boss is whacking you on an idea of his that didn't pan out...

First off, it sounds like you'd probably have a wage theft and minimum wage violation case, that you would win and get back pay for if you blew the whistle.

Second, We know what happens to whistle blowers, it places a bullseye on your back. From what I understand Wisconsin at this moment isn't exactly the most labor friendly state in the US at this point in time. Tread Carefully!
While you might not get canned for blowing the whistle another reason will be made up.

Third, If you do nothing and he has gotten away with it once, history will repeat itself. I guarantee it. Skunks don't change their stink...

Forth, If you decide that you are going to burn a bridge, be wise about it by planning and positioning yourself well. Then don't just burn the bridge... Nuke It! Leave a 1/2 mile deep crater full of sand fused into radioactive glass. there won't be a bridge there for a while...

So you paid for the boss's vacation....

Just my $0.02....


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## friedsamiam2203 (Feb 18, 2015)

Thanks Redwood!! Yes that is exactly what I am saying! We tried and tried and kept beating ourselves over our heads with it! I just don't like the fact that I have to take that big of a hit. I brought it up to him in conversation, asking how do you know it is going to be 3500 for the repair, so he explained, and then continued to say he was just covering his ass. I then asked "what about my ass", he said I covered yours too, and said what if its 4000 to repair, and then he said if its less then expect a bonus in the spring. ( when the repair is going to be done.)

There are a lot of other things that added up to me starting to boil over, I normally let things go, but man 600 bucks out of my pocket is a lot of dough, for something that could have been easily avoided. It is frustrating to say the lease

BTW I love your 4th!


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## tims007 (Aug 31, 2013)

**** them leave thats $600 .. nuke the fooker .. but go get a different job first, as word travels and the plumbing community within a city or state can be small sometimes and reputation can proceed you


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## jrsaltz (Sep 15, 2008)

I agree with Redwood, you are better off ambient curing than to use a boiler imo. Steam is the way to go if you are going to heat cure. It's way easier to control the pressures and temperatures that way. I have heard so many horror stories about hot water cure. 

The deal with the commission is so bogus but that is a whole other show. 

As you told me in a pm, you have tried the Picote cutters already with no luck. You know what I said already via pm, but I want to share with the group. If our cutters did not work you did not have the right tool. We have a wide variety of different tools for several scenarios and not all of them can cut a failed liner out. We make a liner removal tool for just this very thing and I'm guessing the boss man did want to cough up the extra cash for the right part. I will ensure with the vendor you got this and if not you need to try this. If nothing still, I will fly up there and cut it out. There will be a charge but it will be WAY less than a dig. 

9 times out of 10, if a person is having trouble with our tools it's because the are using them improperly or don't have the right stuff for the job. I have seen guys become frustrated with it and call me all uptight. We talk through it and find out they aren't using it properly or have the wrong parts for the job. Then all the sudden they are in love with the tools. 

This is not your average cable machine, it is a specialized system designed to operate specific tools at a high rate of speed. I am confident the liner can be cut out and repaired properly so long as there isn't a bunch of other crap now lodged in there, like broken sewer cable or jet nozzle or any other obstruction. If we can get to the collapse we can cut it out. I will follow-up on all of this shortly when the supplier is open.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

^^^^JR He Be Da Man!^^^^


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

friedsamiam2203 said:


> ...Is it legit to think that I should not be penalized this much, because the owner wanted to try something new, and it did not work according to plan, and if not how do I approach my boss about this? Defiantly would appreciate some insight!


It all depends on the employment agreement you have in place and any precedents that have already been set. If your agreement is to be paid a percentage of the net job after expenses, then you will (and should) take a hit on the loss. If the new process was forced on you, then the employer giving you a break would be nice, but certainly not required. Bear in mind you are serving in a volunteer army.

Working full commission is very similar to being a business operator in this way. If the job has high revenue and profit, you win. If it has lower revenue and less profit, then you win less.

My suggestion is for you to not focus in on the profitability of a single job on a single day. That is the downfall of commission paid employees. It is like staring at your feet while you walk. Keep your eyes on where you are headed and your feet should take care of themselves.

If you don't want to have your pay decreased when the revenue goes down, then you have no business collecting an increase when revenue goes up. It is a two way street and you cannot "rightfully" expect to have it both ways. If you want guaranteed money, then you need to get off commission and take the pay cut on every job.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

jrsaltz said:


> I agree with Redwood, you are better off ambient curing than to use a boiler imo. Steam is the way to go if you are going to heat cure. It's way easier to control the pressures and temperatures that way. I have heard so many horror stories about hot water cure. The deal with the commission is so bogus but that is a whole other show. As you told me in a pm, you have tried the Picote cutters already with no luck. You know what I said already via pm, but I want to share with the group. If our cutters did not work you did not have the right tool. We have a wide variety of different tools for several scenarios and not all of them can cut a failed liner out. We make a liner removal tool for just this very thing and I'm guessing the boss man did want to cough up the extra cash for the right part. I will ensure with the vendor you got this and if not you need to try this. If nothing still, I will fly up there and cut it out. There will be a charge but it will be WAY less than a dig. 9 times out of 10, if a person is having trouble with our tools it's because the are using them improperly or don't have the right stuff for the job. I have seen guys become frustrated with it and call me all uptight. We talk through it and find out they aren't using it properly or have the wrong parts for the job. Then all the sudden they are in love with the tools. This is not your average cable machine, it is a specialized system designed to operate specific tools at a high rate of speed. I am confident the liner can be cut out and repaired properly so long as there isn't a bunch of other crap now lodged in there, like broken sewer cable or jet nozzle or any other obstruction. If we can get to the collapse we can cut it out. I will follow-up on all of this shortly when the supplier is open.


 Whenever I use the 100' cable to reinstate a liner it's such a pain is the ass. The 50' cable, no problem. I was on a job several months ago trying to cut out one reinstatement from 80' away through a cleanout and it literally took me and another guy close to 8 hours using the twister. Now I refuse to do it if it's that far away. Seems like the farther the cable goes out the less effective it is for reinstating. Any solutions to what might be happening?
I don't have the milling machine if that helps, I use a high speed drill.


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

We just did one 2 days ago at almost 90 ft. We have the miller. I wouldnt think it should make a difference. Maybe your losing pushing pressure?


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

Your welcome to try mine sierra. Im sure we can meet halfway. Then you can see if theres a difference. But i need it back someday. Lol.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> It all depends on the employment agreement you have in place and any precedents that have already been set. If your agreement is to be paid a percentage of the net job after expenses, then you will (and should) take a hit on the loss. If the new process was forced on you, then the employer giving you a break would be nice, but certainly not required. Bear in mind you are serving in a volunteer army.
> 
> Working full commission is very similar to being a business operator in this way. If the job has high revenue and profit, you win. If it has lower revenue and less profit, then you win less.
> 
> ...


It also depends on Federal Wage & Labor Laws along with State Wage & Labor Laws....

Regardless of your employers possibly illegal agreements & actions or, self importance...

If labor wage laws were violated there will be an audit and checks written to you and a penalty or, fine...


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## jrsaltz (Sep 15, 2008)

sierra2000 said:


> Whenever I use the 100' cable to reinstate a liner it's such a pain is the ass. The 50' cable, no problem. I was on a job several months ago trying to cut out one reinstatement from 80' away through a cleanout and it literally took me and another guy close to 8 hours using the twister. Now I refuse to do it if it's that far away. Seems like the farther the cable goes out the less effective it is for reinstating. Any solutions to what might be happening?
> I don't have the milling machine if that helps, I use a high speed drill.


So the problem is that the cable you are using is likely has the thin casing on the outside of it. This will start to coil up on longer runs much like anything else. We do not recommend running cables longer than 30-40 ft. off of a drill. The Maxi Miller unit comes with thick casing on the cable and can push much further and easier. 

No way a reinstate should have taken that long. If you have the right tools and equipment id say 15 - 30 mins tops at that length. If you are coming to the show come see me. If not give me a call and i can talk through some things with you gladly. 

The milling machine is an amazing piece of equipment and worth every penny. Although pricey, it will give you the power and rpm needed to cut and clean efficiently with the range of tools offered. Spinning cutters at anything less than 1000 rpm is like pissing in the ocean and expecting a flood. Short runs are definitely doable with a drill, but anything over 30 ft you will be losing power and speed at the end of the cable where you need it most.


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## titaniumplumbr (Jun 11, 2014)

Defiantly ( lol ) talk to jake see what he says .. But seriously he's the man

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Redwood said:


> It also depends on Federal Wage & Labor Laws along with State Wage & Labor Laws....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Silly me...I operate under the assumption that every business operator should and does follow federal and state labor laws like I do.

Is there something illegal in your state in what I posted?


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

What do you guys think about steam cure?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> Silly me...I operate under the assumption that every business operator should and does follow federal and state labor laws like I do.
> 
> Is there something illegal in your state in what I posted?


Nope! Just what you didn't say....
And not all business owners & operators follow the state & federal laws...

I have seen on where auditors show up laying claim to a conference room for a week saying bring me records... Bring me more records...
And where are these records...:laughing:

I didn't get a big check out of that one...
I got roped into a deal they were pulling, that I didn't agree with, so it was a one and done for me...

In retrospect maybe I should have... Nah! NFW


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Nope! Just what you didn't say....



The whole sum of the interwebz could not contain what I left out. :laughing: :jester:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Drain Pro said:


> What do you guys think about steam cure?


If you are going to cure using heat that is the way to go...
But we might run several lining jobs in one day curing by ambient.

You won't do that with a hot cure...

Basically we shoot the liner then leave a pancake compressor behind and move on to the next one. We'll shoot that one leave another compressor behind and then on to another.

Later coming back through and taking the compressor, doing any trimming, connections, reinstatements, etc. needed and moving on to the next...

We've done as many as 4 separate lining jobs in a day...


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

Redwood said:


> If you are going to cure using heat that is the way to go...
> 
> But we might run several lining jobs in one day curing by ambient.
> 
> ...



What system do you guys use?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Drain Pro said:


> What system do you guys use?


MaxLiner...

I'd like to see that change...


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## titaniumplumbr (Jun 11, 2014)

We have master liner


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## drs (Jun 17, 2011)

Talk to a Lawyer and put a lean on the person's home if YOU did not get paid. You Boss if he does not pay you within the year has what is called "Unjust Enrichment" and you can send the IRS after April a W-2 on what he did not pay you. 

Other people should take of your Bosses problem and keep your nose clean of it.

What comes around goes around. Remember that. If you screw people because you can, You got one shot at it and YOU lose everytime.


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

Redwood said:


> MaxLiner...
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to see that change...



What would you change to?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Drain Pro said:


> What would you change to?


LMK


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## jrsaltz (Sep 15, 2008)

titaniumplumbr said:


> We have master liner


You also have LMK.


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## titaniumplumbr (Jun 11, 2014)

Very true... Master liner we use for manhole to manhole continuous. And we use steam for those liners. We also have Lmk but we don't really steam cure any Lmk liners


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## acesfour (Apr 22, 2014)

You have not said if you are an employee of the company or not. Did the boss approve this method of fix or did you do it on your own? The resolution depends on who created the problem and what entity was responsible.......please let us know if you were for the sewer repair company or are contracted and also if you set up the demo installation of the sewer liner or the company you are working for did.

Tracy
Aces Four Construction Seattle


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

acesfour said:


> You have not said if you are an employee of the company or not. Did the boss approve this method of fix or did you do it on your own?...http://www.acesfour.com


From the OP....


friedsamiam2203 said:


> ...Is it legit to think that I should not be penalized this much, because the owner wanted to try something new, and it did not work according to plan, and if not how do I approach my boss about this? Defiantly would appreciate some insight!


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## titaniumplumbr (Jun 11, 2014)

Yeah actually what's going on is illegal you are not financially responsible for your company therefore you are not required to pay for the mistake that is your bosses responsibility. Your commission is based on what the job was sold at and not how profitable it is your boss should learn how to better safeguard himself it should be in the contract that if any extras occur the homeowner will pay to have the work completed correctly

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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