# Asbestos, my opinion



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

All this week I'm taking my 40 hour OSHA Asbestos Supervisor class.

Before starting this course I kinda thought abatement was somewhat of a moneymaking scheme.

After 2 days of lecture I have changed my viewpoint. It is some hazardous stuff. Do a Google search on The city of Libby, Montana. 

So, anyway. If you do come across something you think is asbestos. Don't mess with it. Call a pro. It can be 10-40 years before symptoms show up. No cure. No way to get it out of you.

Please don't mess with it. You can take it home on your clothes to the family.


----------



## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

all my asbestos knowledge is pasted together from others opinions and heresay. i always thought that repeated or long term exposure was hazardous but one time or limited was not so bad. is this not the case? say i cut an asbestos vent with a sawzall one time 5 years ago, (i didn't, let's just say i did) am i screwed?





paul


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I'm not an instructor but, I can say once you inhale fibres. They are in you forever. Are you screwed? I guess only time will tell. I just might be in the same boat you are. I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it though.


----------



## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

do a google search on "second hand smoke"

The funny part is that people worry about asbestos in a boiler room 2 floors down in the basement while sucking on a nice cigarette,

Gasoline is also MORE dangerous if you were to drink it.

You were right the first time, Its a money making scheme


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

******* said:


> do a google search on "second hand smoke"
> 
> The funny part is that people worry about asbestos in a boiler room 2 floors down in the basement while sucking on a nice cigarette,
> 
> ...


What does second-hand smoke have to do with what I'm talking about.
Although, I do agree second smokers shoud keep it away from others.

I worry about asbestos in a boiler room while not smoking. It is dangerous when disturbed.

The gasoline comment absoutely makes no sense to me:blink: 

If you disturb asbestos while working (because hey its not that bad. Just a scheme right) you are subjected to civil litigation.

I'm out.


----------



## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Right, That's the point, UNTIL it's disturbed it's not dangerous, just like my gasoline comment.

Gasoline is for cars NOT for drinking.

Asbestos is for INSULATING and not PLAYING with,

I mean if your against Asbestos, you might as well be afraid of everything.

Everything is dangerous WHEN not used or dealt with properly, that's my point.

OH and for the "second hand smoke"

Yea, I bet you'll be around someone who smokes but a boiler room with asbestos makes you cringe , it's you who makes no sense, second hand smoke will kill you faster then the 3 minutes in your life that you'll spend with asbestos, hell many people will never even run into it, ever

So yea, just gimmick.

I wonder if we could have the PVC glue police next, You ever look at a MSDS sheet on primer?

Why don't you have a looksie "_". Asbestos won't seem so bad anymore


As you say " I'm out "

JUST MY opinion 





ILPlumber said:


> What does second-hand smoke have to do with what I'm talking about.
> Although, I do agree second smokers shoud keep it away from others.
> 
> I worry about asbestos in a boiler room while not smoking. It is dangerous when disturbed.
> ...


----------



## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

I've had my 40 hour supervisor training for 2 years now, and i am required to have a 1 hour refresher each year to keep being able to do abatements. I have a respect for it similar to working with gas, treat it with respect and know what you are doing and you'll be fine. I also do an average of 2-3 glovebags per month, but I do it out of necessity not as a moneymaking scheme, although at one time this was the case with some AB contractors in the 80's.


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

airgap said:


> I've had my 40 hour supervisor training for 2 years now, and i am required to have a 1 hour refresher each year to keep being able to do abatements. I have a respect for it similar to working with gas, treat it with respect and know what you are doing and you'll be fine. I also do an average of 2-3 glovebags per month, but I do it out of necessity not as a moneymaking scheme, although at one time this was the case with some AB contractors in the 80's.


Good post air-gap. I'm glad you shared your experiences with me. I've never met another plumber that was also a certified supervisor. I think it will come in very handy. 
Few questions for you:

What kind of mask do you use? I hear 3m is most comfortable?

Where do you buy your stuff? Glove bags/mask/suits/p100 filters


----------



## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> .* It can be 10-40 years before symptoms show up.* No cure. No way to get it out of you.


Are you referring to these?


----------



## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Thats wierd, all my marlboro lights have white filters on them. DUDES, we all gotta die sometime. Im with wet, more worried about the glues and primers.


----------



## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> Good post air-gap. I'm glad you shared your experiences with me. I've never met another plumber that was also a certified supervisor. I think it will come in very handy.
> Few questions for you:
> 
> What kind of mask do you use? I hear 3m is most comfortable?
> ...


 Thanks, I do use a 3m half-mask and you can hardly tell it's there. I started out using a PAPR, but realized quickly that was'nt going to work. 

I work for Va Tech in the plumbing maintenance shop, and do residential work on the side as much as I can. I haven't been able to use my AB training as of yet on my business side, but I hope to in the future. 

All of our supplies are provided through university budget, so I'm not much help there, but we use a local safety supplier for our Tyveks, and glove bags. I'll see what other info I can dig up tomorrow.


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Thats wierd, all my marlboro lights have white filters on them. DUDES, we all gotta die sometime. Im with wet, more worried about the glues and primers.


I use the low Voc stuff. Don't in particularly want to get sick from that either.


----------



## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

But seriously and back on topic

@ILplumber

It's good to hear that you are taking a class, its better then not knowing how it can hurt you. 

I do agree it is dangerous if messed with


----------



## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Hey, Ilplumber, just wondering what made you decide to do the ab training? What types of situations do you see it.


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

airgap said:


> Hey, Ilplumber, just wondering what made you decide to do the ab training? What types of situations do you see it.


Asbestos Contractor had one wing of a College under containment. They broke a water main (I have no idea how) No valves to the wing to isolate it. I could not go in to make the repair. Ended up shutting water down to that entire building. They had to haul water to finish their work. A week later after they had clean air samples I went in and spent an hour doing the repair. I decided right then to get certified.

I also figure on doing my own stuff if I just have to change a valve or cut in a tee. All minor fibre release stuff though. I don't plan on entering the field as a full fledged contractor. You never know though


----------



## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> Asbestos Contractor had one wing of a College under containment. They broke a water main (I have no idea how) No valves to the wing to isolate it. I could not go in to make the repair. Ended up shutting water down to that entire building. They had to haul water to finish their work. A week later after they had clean air samples I went in and spent an hour doing the repair. I decided right then to get certified.
> 
> I also figure on doing my own stuff if I just have to change a valve or cut in a tee. All minor fibre release stuff though. I don't plan on entering the field as a full fledged contractor. You never know though


 I think you've made a good decision. If you get your name out there with the supervisor training you can really profit from it. I only do glove bags, no containment work. There are a lot of small jobs out there that most people don't want to fool with. remember, keep it wet, it won't be friable:thumbup:, easy.


----------



## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Most of the guys at the shop I work for don't pay any mind to it. I am of the opinon though I'm not sure if it's correct that it is fairly harmless when in good shape and not disturbed. So I don't run out of a house when I see it. I certainly am not going to start playing with it though. 
My first experiance with it was replacing a boiler. It is a big old oil fired steam (converted to hot water) boiler in a large building. The asbestos has long since been removed from the pipes and three guys and myself cut the headers out. We start taking the jacket off to break up the sections and soon discover it was insulated in asbestos. 
No one there pays it any mind and just continues on taking it apart. So I open my mouth and comment on the asbestos. They kind of look at me funny and tell me it's nothing to worry about, we're going to scrape it off and vacuum it up.
I have a good mask but that alone is not enough to go ripping out asbestos. No one else is even equipped with a dust mask and a pair of gloves. I basically say "you're nuts I'm not doing this", walk out, call my boss and tell him I'm not doing it. I can tell he isn't happy about it but he obliges and tells me someone is else is going to come and I can go do something else. I did offer to let someone use my mask so they had at least some protection and nobody wanted it.
I've seen it plenty of times since then and have only been asked to remove it once. We were supposed to rip out a bunch of old insulated steam lines to replace them with new pex water lines. I did the same thing, walked outside, called the boss and said I'm not going this. He doesn't like it but he isn't going to fire me over it and if he does I really don't care. My health is worth more then a few dollars.


OSHA would have had a field day at that job sight.


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Good for you Marlin!

Gotta protect yourself.


----------



## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

It's harmless if not disturbed. The best insulation we've ever come up with. Unfortunately, there are potentially some long term risks. Marlin, you made the right call, we have to look out for ourselves cause sometimes that's the only person who will. I will say the chances of getting sick from an AB related disease are very slim, even under long term acute exposure. But, why take the chance. Someone who smokes increases the chance greatly though. Something like 50% more likely, but I'm not sure about that number.


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

50 - 90 times more likely. Called the synergestic effect.


----------



## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> 50 - 90 times more likely. Called the synergestic effect.


 The force is strong in this one


----------



## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Well I just got laid off over asbestos, yay.
I find out I am going to be sent on a job to remove a bunch of asbestos insulated heat lines. I go to boss and ask to be sent on another job as I'm not comfortable removing asbestos with no safety gear or training. First he tried to convince me first that it was cardboard not asbestos. He then backtracks to the asbestos in there can't hurt you because it's stuck in the cardboard. Even if that was true what about all the corners... So he agrees to send me on another job. 
Fast forward a week and he lays off the two newest hires and me. He won't say why he picked me. Even though he didn't say anything to me I found out he balked to just about everyone else at the shop about how I should have went and how he should fire me. So I would put a couple bucks on that being the reason I'm not unemployed.

I don't have a problem working hard and trying to make the company money. I draw the line at killing myself for the company though.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I would have done the same thing even if I knew before hand that it would mean my job. What's your health worth?

 My advice? Call OSHA.


----------



## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

You did the right thing. If it was the type of insulation that looks like layered cardboard, it is the WORST kind out there. VERY FRIABLE! Bad stuff.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

is this it?


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Thats looks like a job for the new guy to do:thumbsup::laughing:


----------



## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Protech said:


> is this it?


That's pretty close to what it was. The insulation they ripped out was in better shape because the metal bands were still on it keeping it from separating like it did in your picture. The stuff on the job here also seemed a little more dense then that but I could be wrong. It also had the loose stuff packed on the corners. I'm positive that it was asbestos.

It sucks because plumbing jobs are near impossible to find around here. Seems every place I try just laid people off or is fighting hard not to have to lay anyone off. But I would rather be unemployed for a few months then have cancer in my 50s.


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

:thumbup:You did the right thing. Better to be unemployed and looking to work for someone else. It's one thing asking someone to work in dangerous conditions, quite another to lie about the danger and not provide the proper safety equipment.

Your boss doesn't care about you - only his bottom line - eventually this will catch up with him. However, personally I wouldn't get OSHA involved. Whistle blowers though well-intentioned usually pay a higher price than the guilty parties. If you are passionate about it - follow through and DO IT. If it's to get back at your boss - let it go.

Just my .02


----------



## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Marlin said:


> That's pretty close to what it was. The insulation they ripped out was in better shape because the metal bands were still on it keeping it from separating like it did in your picture. The stuff on the job here also seemed a little more dense then that but I could be wrong. It also had the loose stuff packed on the corners. I'm positive that it was asbestos.
> 
> It sucks because plumbing jobs are near impossible to find around here. Seems every place I try just laid people off or is fighting hard not to have to lay anyone off. But I would rather be unemployed for a few months then have cancer in my 50s.


 I'm pretty sure that is Amosite, which is much worse than Chrysotile(grayish white-powdery). Chrysotile is what you'll find 9 times out of 10 in pipe insulation. Amosite fibers are much less forgiving than Chrysotile fibers.


----------



## UnclogNH (Mar 28, 2009)

You did the rite thing better to be safe than sorry at someone else's profit.


----------



## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

airgap said:


> I'm pretty sure that is Amosite, which is much worse than Chrysotile(grayish white-powdery). Chrysotile is what you'll find 9 times out of 10 in pipe insulation. Amosite fibers are much less forgiving than Chrysotile fibers.


I'm not an expert on the subject so I can't tell you what kind it was but I can tell you it wasn't someone cutting up old shipping cartons and wrapping their pipes.


----------



## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

My oldest brother got fired from a power company he worked for years ago. He was a lineman. He and his co-workers challenged the company over not supplying proper safety equipment. All they wanted was new, more modern stuff. Company fired them and hired somone else who didn't know better.
O.S.H.A. finally was called and they fined the holy moly out of them, he heard.


----------



## tnoisaw (Jun 16, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> All this week I'm taking my 40 hour OSHA Asbestos Supervisor class.
> 
> Before starting this course I kinda thought abatement was somewhat of a moneymaking scheme.
> 
> ...


 I use to live about an hour away from Libby and have seen the news on it the whole time I lived in Montana. It is some wicked stuff. Many people in the area suffer many problems.


----------



## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I would drop a dime before your boss puts any more plumbers into an early grave.


----------



## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

jjbex said:


> I would drop a dime before your boss puts any more plumbers into an early grave.


I keep thinking about that, all those other guys are killing themselves out there. If I drop the ball on him I'm screwing myself over good. He's going to know damn well who it was if he gets turned in. So I could never use him as a reference if I did that. He's not happy that I won't rip out asbestos but I know he would give me a great reference right now. 
He may also go so far as to badmouth me to all the other local plumbers. We had one guy who got caught stealing. His solution was to fire him and send a fax to every plumbing company within ten miles. So the guy couldn't get a job without making a nice commute. In that case he was doing everyone a favor. Their is nothing to stop him from doing the same thing to me. Whether he says I called OSHA or flat out lies and says I stole something, am an addict, etc.
He also doesn't actually have anyone fooled into thinking asbestos isn't bad for you. As per my post in this thread a few months ago the guys know, they just don't care. They'll smoke and rip out asbestos all day long without thinking twice. Say something to them and they'll respond "everyone's going to die sometime".


----------



## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

Good posts Marlin. I have always believed in safety for my employees. One of my services is porcelain/fiberglass tub repair. I preached and insisted on safety with nasty chemicals involved. I would often do drop in visits with my guys in the field and many times found the guys completely disregarding my instructions and the expensive equip I purchased for them. It would be a crime if I wasn't willing to spend the needed money for safety or tell them the ramifications of prolonged exposure. 

My guess is this... when they find out a marble of a softball is growing on the fore lobes of there brain it will become my fault and they will expect work comp to pay for there retirement. I documented everything including weekly safety meetings.

Marlin you did the right thing, asking to be safe at work is not a crime. I am sorry to hear you were laid off.


----------



## Regulator (Aug 20, 2009)

Marlin said:


> Well I just got laid off over asbestos, yay.
> I find out I am going to be sent on a job to remove a bunch of asbestos insulated heat lines. I go to boss and ask to be sent on another job as I'm not comfortable removing asbestos with no safety gear or training. First he tried to convince me first that it was cardboard not asbestos. He then backtracks to the asbestos in there can't hurt you because it's stuck in the cardboard. Even if that was true what about all the corners... So he agrees to send me on another job.
> Fast forward a week and he lays off the two newest hires and me. He won't say why he picked me. Even though he didn't say anything to me I found out he balked to just about everyone else at the shop about how I should have went and how he should fire me. So I would put a couple bucks on that being the reason I'm not unemployed.
> 
> I don't have a problem working hard and trying to make the company money. I draw the line at killing myself for the company though.


If you were in BC, you would have a case of wrongful dismissal. The company would probably be heavily fined by Worksafe BC (Workman's Comp) for such practices regarding asbestos removal.


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Marlin said:


> That's pretty close to what it was. The insulation they ripped out was in better shape because the metal bands were still on it keeping it from separating like it did in your picture. The stuff on the job here also seemed a little more dense then that but I could be wrong. It also had the loose stuff packed on the corners. I'm positive that it was asbestos.
> 
> It sucks because plumbing jobs are near impossible to find around here. Seems every place I try just laid people off or is fighting hard not to have to lay anyone off. But I would rather be unemployed for a few months then have cancer in my 50s.


Asbestos certainly should be cause for concern, in todays world. In my case in the early days in this trade (my apprenticeship) we put in a lot of round cast iron coal fiired boilers. Each one got covered with asbestos. First coat big fibers. 2 days later go back put on a finish coat (real fine fibers) mix in some white portland cement to make it hard. Plus all the old pipe covering we removed. Was that bad asbestos? I would have to say No! At least my health has never shown effects of any problem. But asbestos became a cheap filler for a lot of products. To name a few ceiling tiles and panels, flooring, roofing, siding. Was that bad asbestos? Yes! Why because usually there was air being blown over it and the fibers (very dry) went airborn and were sucked in through your nose. That asbestos I used was wet, no dust. Well yes when you dumped it from the bag into a bucket you probably breathed some in. But I bet I breathed in a lot more in my school room. But then I used to go to the dentist, and played with the mercury he was using to make fillings for my teeth. From a plumbing and health stand point wait until then find out that fiberglass is hazardous to your health. I just wonder how many fibers are blown out of fiber duct board?
Perhaps when we must remove asbestos today we should wet it down first? End of Rant ...


----------



## Regulator (Aug 20, 2009)

This is a good site (in my opinion) to quickly review the health concerns of asbestos.

http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://156.63.18.80/bs%2520pics/asbeestos_pics.jpg&imgrefurl=http://156.63.18.80/asbestos.html&h=280&w=240&sz=16&tbnid=O3NJcUmLCFoy0M:&tbnh=114&tbnw=98&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAsbestos&hl=en&usg=__zjNvWoJhYJh-ZutkSoCjMATdGgg=&ei=t8HtSoPhB5DGMePltYMM&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=8&ct=image&ved=0CCMQ9QEwBw


----------



## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

PLUMBER_BILL
[COLOR=darkred said:


> Perhaps when we must remove asbestos today we should wet it down first? End of Rant ...[/COLOR]


 It needs to be removed by a trained individual, for several reasons...But you're right it needs to be wetted down before it's disturbed, and continually sprayed with water as it's being removed.


----------



## plumb4fun (Feb 18, 2009)

Its kind of ironic that some cigarette companies used to put asbestos filters on their cigarettes. Double death.


----------



## helpsy (Dec 3, 2009)

*Silent Killer*

Here in the UK the independent radio stations run an advert about how many plumbers/electricians die in the UK each week due to asbestos related diseases, it was still in use until 2000.
I had an old neighbour who retired to Spain 4 years ago,he died in a Spanish hospital 2 years ago and they found out he had asbestosis he picked up when he worked as an electricians labourer when he was 18.He was unaware of any health issues until admitted. I think he was about 65 when he died(RIP).
Please respect this material and beware if you don't take precautions or are aware of it, it WILL get you eventually.
Please beware.
Good Luck.


----------

