# Oh no not copper too



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

It seems some high ranking people in the copper world are concerned about silicone caulk touching their beloved copper and are even worried about microbes in the soil. They even go so far as to suggest using a fernco to aid in installation.. I wonder what kind of pipe NHMaster is going to use now?


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Can you give a link?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Way way ahead of you, already have the answer :thumbsup:


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

wow, they make green pex now with adapters alrdy on it

i gotta get sum


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Read it and weep

http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techcorner/prevent_corrosion_cu_tube_buried.html


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I hope Lawyers don't read that and start suing plumbers for improper copper pipe installation techniques...


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

That doesn't say anything bad about copper.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

jjbex said:


> That doesn't say anything bad about copper.


Oh no not at all:laughing: Betta read it again.:yes:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

There is nothing in the article that is new or has not been known for many many years. Poor soil conditions, acidic conditions, retained moisture, all things that should be addressed before burying any pipe copper or otherwise.
I have never been a fan of pulling copper underground for water service but it has been done for many years by the utilities.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

The article said bad construction practices can introduce elements that are harmful to copper. There was nothing knocking copper.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> There is nothing in the article that is new or has not been known for many many years. Poor soil conditions, acidic conditions, retained moisture, all things that should be addressed before burying any pipe copper or otherwise.
> I have never been a fan of pulling copper underground for water service but it has been done for many years by the utilities.


Did you read the part about sealing copper pipe with silicone? Thats a new one on me.
What pipe are you a fan of for water services??????



jjbex said:


> The article said bad construction practices can introduce elements that are harmful to copper. There was nothing knocking copper.


No one thinks that way when it comes to plastics do they,but copper gets a pass when the enviroment or poor installtion practices causes it to fail.

Would you have that same attitude if it was pex pipe failing due to sunlight or would you consider pex junk because it cant take exposure to the sun?
The article claims that some silicone caulks can degrade copper and cause it to fail......what do you think about that?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Sure, and there is nothing wrong with polybutylene either.........................................................................................................................................................................................................just so long as you don't let it come into contact with any chlorine



jjbex said:


> The article said bad construction practices can introduce elements that are harmful to copper. There was nothing knocking copper.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Since I usually do industrial/commercial, PEX isn't really on anyone's radar. My favorite buried water line service is ductile. My town has both copper and black PE. My house is black PE. I don't really care. Whatever material is used, it needs to be bedded and backfilled properly.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Who are these fools tryin to fool? Read the 1st paragraph in this link.
http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techcorner/electrolysis_cause_copper_tube_fail.html


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I feel vindicated about the ac grounding issue which I had seen but in a thread a way back I couldnt argue the electric issues. Assuming the article is true..there will probably be some code changes...especially if the insurance companies try and recover for improper install.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

It appears to me that the fernco is intended to seal the pipe entering the building to the sleeve, to prevent water from entering the sleeve. 

It is not to connect the water distribution piping to the water service.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

RealLivePlumber said:


> It appears to me that the fernco is intended to seal the pipe entering the building to the sleeve, to prevent water from entering the sleeve.
> 
> It is not to connect the water distribution piping to the water service.


True. 

There are much better ways to do it than that....


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

How is that? They are saing that it's bogus.....

"*Electrolysis is an overused and misused term when applied to copper tube.* True electrolysis, or electrolytic corrosion, as it is more properly designated with regard to piping, is caused by an imposed (external) stray DC current and virtually ceased to occur with the disappearance of the trolley-car that was powered by high amperage DC current. *In many cases, it is also thought that grounding of a building’s electrical system to the copper piping can cause this phenomenon, but there is no statistical data to support this*, nor is it recommended that the piping system be used as the main electrical ground for a building or dwelling."





stillaround said:


> *I feel vindicated about the ac grounding issue* which I had seen but in a thread a way back I couldnt argue the electric issues. Assuming the article is true..there will probably be some code changes...especially if the insurance companies try and recover for improper install.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> How is that? They are saing that it's bogus.....
> 
> "*Electrolysis is an overused and misused term when applied to copper tube.* True electrolysis, or electrolytic corrosion, as it is more properly designated with regard to piping, is caused by an imposed (external) stray DC current and virtually ceased to occur with the disappearance of the trolley-car that was powered by high amperage DC current. *In many cases, it is also thought that grounding of a building’s electrical system to the copper piping can cause this phenomenon, but there is no statistical data to support this*, nor is it recommended that the piping system be used as the main electrical ground for a building or dwelling."


It seems like the website would warn of the dangers and advise bonding the copper together before cutting it. Statistical data or not...its real and it happens and it can be deadly. It's not recommended that the copper water systm be used as the primary ground but it is REQUIRED by the electrical code here to be a secondary ground if there is more than 20' of cooper in the soil in any particular building or residence. The connection to such piping shall be located as to be readily accessible for inspection. Oh and it eats the crap out of the pipe.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Other factors that could promote underground corrosion of copper include:
*Oxygen differential concentration cells. *Preferential corrosion is sometimes found on the underside of copper tubes because they are in contact with undisturbed soil where the oxygen content is reduced, in contrast to the upper portion of the tube which may be exposed to aerated backfill where oxygen content is high.
*Variable aeration characteristics.* These depend on particle size and distribution, the degree of compaction, and the drainage characteristics of the soil or backfill material.
*Deicing practices.* If the chloride content of the soil is elevated because of deicing (thawing salts for roadways and side walks) the metal becomes more anodic than the areas where the chloride content of the backfill material is lower.

*Stray currents.* Direct current (DC) from impressed cathodic current corrosion protections systems or from the grounding of alternating current (AC) systems to the underground copper service can be detrimental.

*Cinders.* Although connections of copper tube to ferrous water mains can be very favorable for the copper tube, the copper could still be attacked if it is embedded in backfill materials containing cinders.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Redwood said:


> I hope Lawyers don't read that and start suing plumbers for improper copper pipe installation techniques...


Speak of the devil...well kinda. My lawyer just called and he has a case with a client claiming to have water damage due to a plumbing pipe being struck by lightning. The inusrance company claims its not lightning damage but just old age.

We shall see Thursday morning when I go watch the video and give my opinion......and we all know I love giving my opinion:thumbsup:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

TM, for residential service, it's all private wells and 99% of the service pipe is going to be 1" PE. For in city water service, quite a few water districts have also adopted PE, most likely for cost reasons. It's all a balancing act these days between what will hopefully give good service and not cost an arm and a leg. Of course there is the time and effort factor also. Ever try and lug a 100' roll of 1" copper around and then unroll it into a 4' deep trench. Not so much fun. PE is a whole lot lighter and easier to work with, plus you can get it in much longer rolls so you avoid the couplings underground. It's all plastics man, pretty soon everything will be plastic. Hell, I think I recently saw an electric water heater that had a plastic tank.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Hell, I think I recently saw an electric water heater that had a plastic tank.


Yea...
A Polybutylene Tank in fact!:laughing:

http://www.marathonheaters.com/


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Protech said:


> How is that? They are saing that it's bogus.....
> 
> "*Electrolysis is an overused and misused term when applied to copper tube.* True electrolysis, or electrolytic corrosion, as it is more properly designated with regard to piping, is caused by an imposed (external) stray DC current and virtually ceased to occur with the disappearance of the trolley-car that was powered by high amperage DC current. *In many cases, it is also thought that grounding of a building’s electrical system to the copper piping can cause this phenomenon, but there is no statistical data to support this*, nor is it recommended that the piping system be used as the main electrical ground for a building or dwelling."


I guess whoever wrote it never put a penny and a nickel into a potato and hooked them up to a galvanometer...:laughing:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Let's just be clear, galvanic cell corrosion and AC electrical system grounding are 2 different things. No one is saying electrolysis if fake. I'm just saying that failure due to AC grounding is.



Redwood said:


> I guess whoever wrote it never put a penny and a nickel into a potato and hooked them up to a galvanometer...:laughing:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Protech said:


> How is that? They are saing that it's bogus.....
> 
> "*Electrolysis is an overused and misused term when applied to copper tube.* True electrolysis, or electrolytic corrosion, as it is more properly designated with regard to piping, is caused by an imposed (external) stray DC current and virtually ceased to occur with the disappearance of the trolley-car that was powered by high amperage DC current. *In many cases, it is also thought that grounding of a building’s electrical system to the copper piping can cause this phenomenon, but there is no statistical data to support this*, nor is it recommended that the piping system be used as the main electrical ground for a building or dwelling."


I guess it doesnt take much to make me happy......I relented over the ac thingy back in the pre flat rate discussion days  but had experienced a "phenomenon" corrected by the water heater ground removal...and 2 other instances where copper running outside near a ground for much phone wiring inordinately ate up the copper. One other accellerated instance also..but I dont know electric to argue or what the issue was other than electricity of some form near a ground the must haved leaked some kind of juice....so if I wrote the copper article I would now say *Watch out for the electric juice*.....

once again..*Stray currents.* Direct current (DC) from impressed cathodic current corrosion protections systems or from the grounding of alternating current (AC) systems to the underground copper service can be detrimental.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

*Alternating Current Action *

The role of alternating current on the underground corrosion of copper is not well understood.9 Some investigators contend that any metal dissolved during the anodic half-cycle should be redeposited during the cathodic half-cycle. Others believe that the efficiency of the anodic half-cycle is greater than that of the cathodic half-cycle and, therefore, that AC-induced corrosion can occur. The argument persists as to whether cuprous oxide on the outer surface of an underground copper water tube can rectify AC, although some of the recent research suggests that this rectification does not occur.10, 11
Some investigators believe that a critical AC density must be exceeded for AC corrosion to occur.12, 13 It is also possible that AC facilitates depolarization of the local anodes and cathodes on an underground copper surface. 11 This depolarization would be expected to increase the corrosion-current density and the resultant corrosion rate.
Until these differences of opinion are reconciled and recent research results are corroborated, it is reasonable to believe that the commonly used practice of grounding electrical systems to underground copper water systems can lead to corrosion. If the copper plumbing system is connected to a nonconducting main, such as asbestos-cement, some corrosion damage can be anticipated where the current leaves the copper, even if the current is alternating. Further, cuprous oxide could become semiconducting under certain conditions of soil pH and electrical-field intensity. Grounding of the AC system to the underground copper water tubing and unbalance in the AC system could very well be involved in the underground corrosion process.


I couldnt have said it better myself.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

If it was true, you would see increased corrosion near the grounding point and should become less and less corroded as you move away. Never seen that happen


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Anybody ever notice the phone rings with more slab leaks right after a lightning storm than not? Or is it just me?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> If it was true, you would see increased corrosion near the grounding point and should become less and less corroded as you move away. Never seen that happen


Say for instance the grounding point was under the house in the crawl space on the copper main. The soil is realy dry under the house so very little if any current would pass into the ground.....but out in the yard where we get 60" of rain a year the soil is wet and a very good conductor especially mixed it natural salts.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

NO, it's not just you. Copper corrosion due to near by lightening strikes is a well known phenomenon. It's a DC stray current and is highly destructive, especially on systems that are already corroded for other reasons. It seem like when a thunder storm hits I almost by instinct start ordering repiping materials. 



ckoch407 said:


> Anybody ever notice the phone rings with more slab leaks right after a lightning storm than not? Or is it just me?


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Protech said:


> NO, it's not just you. Copper corrosion due to near by lightening strikes is a well known phenomenon. It's a DC stray current and is highly destructive, especially on systems that are already corroded for other reasons. It seem like when a thunder storm hits I almost by instinct start ordering repiping materials.


I think I talked of Bud Hardner before. Anyway SunCoast Plumbing in St Pete was owned by him [now retired]. He supposedly invented the Copper Knight because of all the pin holes in Fl copper. Bud is now in his 80's

Anybody know him? I think I will invite him to join the zone.

www.copperknight.com


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

We all need to go back to being plumbers and start installing galvanized pipes.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> We all need to go back to being plumbers and start installing galvanized pipes.


But, but, sharkbites don't work on galnvanized.:whistling2:


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> I think I talked of Bud Hardner before. Anyway SunCoast Plumbing in St Pete was owned by him [now retired]. He supposedly invented the Copper Knight because of all the pin holes in Fl copper. Bud is now in his 80's
> 
> Anybody know him? I think I will invite him to join the zone.
> 
> www.copperknight.com


I wish I had as much energy as Bud does. Anyone who decides to live off the grid and performed much of the work himself deserves a thumb up or two :thumbup:


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