# How would you have handled this?



## PlumberShep (Sep 22, 2010)

The boss and I go to a call this morning for a 100 gal water heater.Getting lukewarm water at all fixtures after mixing valve.I check aquastats and recirc pumps as well as time and all are fuctioning as they should.After trying to adjust the mixing valve we find it to be the source of the problem and give the maint. man the options to rebuild or replace.He says replace and we tell him we will pick one up and install tomorrow morning.
Now before you start thinking that I am posting this in the wrong forum, please read on........
The boss heads back to the shop and I go to my next call.About 30 minutes in he calls me and says the maint. man called and said that after talking it over with the pastor(the WH is in a church and supllies a small kitchen as well as public restrooms)they decided that they just wanted to take the valve out of the equation all together, and could I go and take care of it when I finished what I was doing?I was caught up reading the error history of a water heater and what he asked me to do did not register for a few minutes.When it did I was like, WHAT THE:blink:did he just ask me to do?
Keep in mind that none of the fixtures are equiped with point of use mixing valves.
I posted this here because to do so would be a code violation, and I would like to know how some of you would have handled this situation.
Thanks for reading
PS


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

You've got several options.

Turn the water heater down to less than 120 degrees. If they don't have food service, they're fine.

If they do have food service, advise them that they can't do that, unless they want to either install a new water heater for the domestic water OR shut off all hot water to the tempered fixtures.

Or you could walk away.


ACK. Just re-read it. If they have a small kitchen and the board of health requires 140 degree water, they have few options!!


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

do what your told and take it out


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

I'd walk away from that one, and if my boss told me to yank it, I'd start looking for another boss


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

That's a tough one.

How small of a kitchen are we talking about?

Does it have a dishwasher that will boost the temperature to 140 or are they hand washing dishes?

****ty position your boss has put you in -- Especially over a $75.00 part.

If it was me as the business owner, I would agree to sell the tempering valve at cost and discount the labor charge.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Did you respectfully question your boss? Could it be that he didn't quite realize what he was saying?

After his answer, I might have said something like "Your the boss. Glad I'm not the one with liability here. Going against code makes me nervous."

In this economy, I wouldn't lose my job over it, but I would make it known that I don't agree with it.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Who holds the masters licence


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Who holds the masters licence


 Why is that important?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> Why is that important?


Because lawyers don't pursue who's at fault, they go after the guy with insurance. It's not always right but it is true.

That is one of the distinct non-risk advantages of being an employee vs. the employer.

(and yes...I know you already know that.)


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> Because lawyers don't pursue who's at fault, they go after the guy with insurance. It's not always right but it is true.
> 
> That is one of the distinct non-risk advantages of being an employee vs. the employer.
> 
> (and yes...I know you already know that.)


 Makes sense.

I'm having my own difficulties right now for no other reason than because I have the deepest pockets.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> Makes sense.
> 
> I'm having my own difficulties right now for no other reason than because I have the deepest pockets.


It stinks but sometimes you get attacked just because people "THINK" you have pockets.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

PlumberShep said:


> The boss and I go to a call this morning for a 100 gal water heater.Getting lukewarm water at all fixtures after mixing valve.I check aquastats and recirc pumps as well as time and all are fuctioning as they should.After trying to adjust the mixing valve we find it to be the source of the problem and give the maint. man the options to rebuild or replace.He says replace and we tell him we will pick one up and install tomorrow morning.
> Now before you start thinking that I am posting this in the wrong forum, please read on........
> The boss heads back to the shop and I go to my next call.About 30 minutes in he calls me and says the maint. man called and said that after talking it over with the pastor(the WH is in a church and supllies a small kitchen as well as public restrooms)they decided that they just wanted to take the valve out of the equation all together, and could I go and take care of it when I finished what I was doing?I was caught up reading the error history of a water heater and what he asked me to do did not register for a few minutes.When it did I was like, WHAT THE:blink:did he just ask me to do?
> Keep in mind that none of the fixtures are equiped with point of use mixing valves.
> ...


Did you discuss this with your boss? explain to him that you think it would be a liability to him? maybe he had a brain fart and when you talk to him about it, He may see your way of thinking.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*run away from church projects...*

the *liability issues* are enough to walk away from it

also remember you are doing this for a church,,,
and they are already looking for a way to do this as cheaply as possible .......and I have been stiffed many a good time by wolves in sheeps clothings....

also if they turn that back up to 150 after you leave and someone gets scalded...then you get your pants sued off of you . 

remember they are just the general public....
and *you are the professional who should have known better*......:yes::yes:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

How about just cleaning the screen on the mixing valve...probably all thats wrong ...

1. if the boss wants it out...take it out.....not really life threatening here...no need to 2nd guess for a little hot water....


I know what you are thinking...someones little cute daughter goes to the bathroom and reaches just high enough to turn on the scalding hot 150 deg water that shoots all over her face and she falls down and hits her head on the corner of something, unable to move she endures water torture of extreme temerature until the 100 gal is exhausted and mommy gets worried to go to the bathroom and find her joy and love of life helpless and writhing..

OK...ask the boss if he had already considered the liability.....


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

What i learned in contiuing education on saturday, is the texas board of examiners is longer holding the master plumber responsible. If a plumber or journeyman decides to do something he knowingly knows is wrong or may harm some one, he or she is held responsible. Yes while the rmp will have insurence to cover any and all damages. If any fines or actions accure it would be towards the journeyman not the rmp and in some cases both would be liable. Find out if the Kitchen is for personal use or for commercial if its commercial you have to have temperture to code or what ever requirments your jurisdiction asks. If its for more personal and staff you can pretty much set at what you want. Best case scenario is to turn all other water supplys off other than kitchen and state in your contract per customer against your recommondations and thats how you save your butt i think.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

You can state whatever you want in your contract.

The lawyers would have a field day with it............


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

True, well then dont do the job you asked and let the supper hack do it .


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

Are you required to keep hot water storage at 140 to kill bacteria? If not i wouldnt worry about lowering the temp down to 120 unless they have a commercial kitchen with low and high temps off the heater..I would warn them about running out of hot water more freqently on a large draw.. than with a mixing valve


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## PlumberShep (Sep 22, 2010)

Well, what I did was call him back and explain my concerns about removing the valve.I also explained to him that if the company wanted to do what the maint. man was requesting, that some one else would have to do it because I would not.I reminded him of the conversation we had 3 yrs ago when he interviewed me for this job in which I told him in no uncertain terms that he should never asked me to do anything that puts my cards in jeapordy, and he should never asked me to lie to a customer.After that he agreed that it was a bad idea but I could tell he was not really on the same page with me.
I offered to go and talk with the pastor and maint. man and explain to them why removing the valve was not a good option.He agreed that it was a good idea and that they would probably not want to after they knew a bit more about why it is there in the first place.So off I go.
Well, I never made it to the pastor.After explaining to the maint. man why it was a bad idea and why I could not remove it he cops a major attitude and starts going off about it being the churches property and they can do anything they damn well please and so on.I let him get it all out of his system and politely explain to him that I dont make the rules but I am required to abide them.I also explain to him(once again)that it could just be sediment but I would like to have a rebuild kit on hand in case it is not and that the repair would be cheaper than rerouting copper lines would be.So he relaxes a bit and says ok, just rebuild it when the parts come in.
I call the boss 5 minutes later and tell him the guy agreed and could he get the parts on the way, and he says the guy just called and said to send a bill for our time and they were going to get some one else to remove it:blink:The boss then goes on to tell me that the customer is always right blah blah blah.I point out that the case at hand disproves this theory entirely.Back and forth we go, not raising voices but neither seeing the others point.Finally I have had enough of this B.S. and say fine, call the guy and tell him I will be down there to remove it just as soon as I get through pulling a permit.This ended the back and forth.
I told him that I regretted that we didnt see eye to eye about this situation but I felt strongly that he should have stopped the guy cold when he first mentioned it.
As far as I know I am still employed and hopefully that is the end of it.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*wolves in sheeps clothing*

If I were you I would let the boss clean the mixing valve or have him there with you.. 

This good holy pastor fellow has already blind-sided and probably bad mouthed you to your boss .
 Before it is over , you will probably have a hatchet stuck deep in your back from the "good and holy pastor." .:laughing::laughing:

my advice .. keep your mouth shut and watch your back..


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## PlumberShep (Sep 22, 2010)

And yes, this is a commercial kitchen complete with menu and pricing posted on the wall.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

Yoiks!
Good on you, PlumberShep.
At least I'm at the point where I can tell the boss that I think he's lost his marbles and if he want's to fire me... oh well.

I think that, if I were in your position I would have done the same thing *except* I wouldn't have caved. Don't take this the wrong way because I know exactly the position that you've been thrust into (_read the part about "Don't care if I'm fired" but change "care" with "give a flying f**k")_.

The onus is on you whether the boss is ultimately held to blame or not. Do what you're ordered to do but ask for the instructions in writing, and continue to do what you have been doing, and that is to voice your opinion, approval/disapproval before giving in to the last resort. Maintain your professionalism.

Mig


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

You did the right thing. It is your responsibility to do it right even if they don't understand why. If your boss doesn't see why it is a liability or doesn't care, Shame on him. You know if something was to happen he would turn on you and claim he had no idea you did that. This isn't a simply code violation like a santee on its back or something. This is something that can put innocent people at risk of being harmed. people that had no say so in the work that was done. That is why you have a license. You protect their health. once again good job for doing what you know is right.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> my advice .. keep your mouth shut and watch your back..


I disagree. Be vocal in a diplomatic sort of way but by no means just shut up and do.
The CYA principle applies to more than just our trade but I would have much more respect for an ostrich that simply buries his head in the sand than I would for a trained colleague that just did what he was told, right or wrong.

Mig


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## PlumberShep (Sep 22, 2010)

Miguel said:


> Yoiks!
> Good on you, PlumberShep.
> At least I'm at the point where I can tell the boss that I think he's lost his marbles and if he want's to fire me... oh well.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the support but I didnt cave.The point of me saying that I would be there to remove it as soon as I pulled the permit is that I knew that they wouldnt issue one.:laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Maybe you need to print out a copy of this for him... :whistling2:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,530056,00.html


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