# New construction: black iron or csst?



## NewSchool

New construction guys:

Do you install csst or threaded pipe for your gas systems?

Csst sure is quick but is so expensive I'm not sure it really ends up cheaper with the saved labor.

Thoughts?


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## pilot light

NewSchool said:


> New construction guys:
> 
> Do you install csst or threaded pipe for your gas systems?
> 
> Csst sure is quick but is so expensive I'm not sure it really ends up cheaper with the saved labor.
> 
> Thoughts?


 I dont do much new con but always black iron! Galvanized outside!


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## OldSchool

NewSchool said:


> New construction guys:
> 
> Do you install csst or threaded pipe for your gas systems?
> 
> Csst sure is quick but is so expensive I'm not sure it really ends up cheaper with the saved labor.
> 
> Thoughts?


Darn do I got to teach you everything

You are new school use the csst

Sent from my miniature laptop


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## rocksteady

I don't do new work but if I'm doing a remodel or an addition, I'd much rather use iron pipe than csst.

In completely new build, I don't see how csst could save you that much time. It really doesn't take that long to gas pipe a single family residence if you have a 300 machine.




Paul


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## deerslayer

rocksteady said:


> I don't do new work but if I'm doing a remodel or an addition, I'd much rather use iron pipe than csst.
> 
> In completely new build, I don't see how csst could save you that much time. It really doesn't take that long to gas pipe a single family residence if you have a 300 machine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paul


Yep!


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## Mississippiplum

Black pipe always 

Once ya go black ya never go back lmao.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## MTDUNN

Mississippiplum said:


> Black pipe always
> 
> Once ya go black ya never go back lmao.
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


LMAO. Amen brother!


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## easttexasplumb

hit black iron with a hammer, then the csst.


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## rocksteady

easttexasplumb said:


> hit black iron with a hammer, then the csst.


Or a drywall screw. :blink:








Paul


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## pilot light

Black iron?:thumbup:


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## PrecisePlumbing

Rehau pex -alu -pex gas pipe with copper tails


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## AWWGH

New construction always black pipe.

Renovations always black when its feasible.

Sometimes CSST can be helpful to get you through a difficult situation with less added grief though.


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## NewSchool

We do have a 300 and thread most houses. For some reason it seems like most of the bigger plumbers in town go all csst.


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## GREENPLUM

NewSchool said:


> We do have a 300 and thread most houses. For some reason it seems like most of the bigger plumbers in town go all csst.


Most of the new stuff here is also done in CSST. The time saved on installation makes it worth the price.

Most rigid steel pipe is made in Asia with no quality control. All CSST sold in the USA is made in the USA


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## Michaelcookplum

First of all it depends in your budget and what the GC wants installed. If your piping a house that has 7+ fixtures and you have to use 11/2 at the start I would choose csst. It is a lot faster to install csst for 7-8 fixtures. 2 people can do it in 1 day. But the cost of material will be more. 2 people could do the same in black iron in 2 days if your machine and material are on the job set up and you have the piping laid out. 
So it's a cost of labor vs. cost of material. 

I'm sure people here will jump me and say that 2 people could pipe a 7 fixture house with appliances on 3 different levels on opposite sides of the house in 1 day with black but they are full of ****. Csst will save you time and the cost difference of material will out way the cost of labor(may have said that backwards) bottom line, it will be cheaper to use csst. 

But every situation is different. This was just one scenario


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## NewSchool

For the record we are talking about large 1 story homes with differing ceiling heights/ vaulted ceilings. On our basic homes we can thread a job in 4 hours. These new ones have 7 drops and the layout is making me question using black iron.


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## Michaelcookplum

NewSchool said:


> For the record we are talking about large 1 story homes with differing ceiling heights/ vaulted ceilings. On our basic homes we can thread a job in 4 hours. These new ones have 7 drops and the layout is making me question using black iron.


In that case I would use csst. Have you used it before?


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## NewSchool

We use it usuAlly on remodels or long fireplace runs. I haven't done many whole homes with it. Is it typical to run a main in to a central manifold and drop from there?


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## Michaelcookplum

NewSchool said:


> We use it usuAlly on remodels or long fireplace runs. I haven't done many whole homes with it. Is it typical to run a main in to a central manifold and drop from there?


Yes, we usually put valves for each fixture at the manifold and at the fixture, although not required 2 for each, but this was a budget job. I usually strap every 3-4 feet on horizontals to keep it looking nice and straight.


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## crowejr77

Thats a good lookin manifold. :yes: :thumbsup:


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## crowejr77

We always run black iron on the new homes we do. We will run trac pipe to 
A second floor furnace or a remote grill or fireplace away from the house. Of course it has to be sleeved underground.


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## TallCoolOne

My city outlawed CSST and then therer was a lawsuit so they allowed it on new houses, so what the city has done is make so many requirements on CSST that the builders have to to with black iron, because it of the requirements, my city has some of the toughest building codes in Texas.

In my area plumbers can't do the new construction, cuz all the illegals aliens doing all the work on new houses, and some master willl sign off on thier work.

They are building new houses right and left in my city, wish I could get some of that work..


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## plbgbiz

TallCoolOne said:


> ...They are building new houses right and left in my city, wish I could get some of that work..


You will be getting work as soon as people start using the crap they are installing.


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## GrumpyPlumber

TallCoolOne said:


> They are building new houses right and left in my city, wish I could get some of that work..


Much better money in service, repair and remodels....and, if you're right about illegals, there's going to be a lot of it for years to come in your area.


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## TallCoolOne

plbgbiz said:


> You will be getting work as soon as people start using the crap they are installing.


Agreed

I moved north of Dallas cuz the city I live in is the fastest growing city in USA in 2011.


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## TallCoolOne

GrumpyPlumber said:


> Much better money in service, repair and remodels....and, if you're right about illegals, there's going to be a lot of it for years to come in your area.


The illegals aliens are all in the Dallas area, they have over burden the hospitals, school, electrical grids, etcs, they are really a bad deal in our area.

They bring in crime and drugs, only way i ever see getting rid of Illegals is having a civil war here in Texas


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## GrumpyPlumber

TallCoolOne said:


> The illegals aliens are all in the Dallas area, they have over burden the hospitals, school, electrical grids, etcs, they are really a bad deal in our area.
> 
> They bring in crime and drugs, only way i ever see getting rid of Illegals is having a civil war here in Texas


You can go to CT, look up my screen name as far back as 2006 and see I often went on tirades over them, as well as the DIY craze back then.

3 Years later as the economy was crashing, I was often thankful for that craze - we charge much more to redo hack jobs than we'd have charged to do it right up front.

As far as right or wrong, no debate, but have faith, time wounds all hacks.


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## easttexasplumb

TallCoolOne said:


> The illegals aliens are all in the Dallas area, they have over burden the hospitals, school, electrical grids, etcs, they are really a bad deal in our area.
> 
> They bring in crime and drugs, only way i ever see getting rid of Illegals is having a civil war here in Texas


Nothing will be done till the illegals make their way to D.C and the rest of the northern states. It does not affect most states so they dont care.


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## TallCoolOne

easttexasplumb said:


> Nothing will be done till the illegals make their way to D.C and the rest of the northern states. It does not affect most states so they dont care.


:thumbsup:

Agreed


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## Michaelcookplum

easttexasplumb said:


> Nothing will be done till the illegals make their way to D.C and the rest of the northern states. It does not affect most states so they dont care.


News flash, they're illegals all over DC and Northern VA! They've been here for years!! I hire them all the time to dig my groundworks for me


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## easttexasplumb

Michaelcookplum said:


> News flash, they're illegals all over DC and Northern VA! They've been here for years!! I hire them all the time to dig my groundworks for me


 
News flash thats because we have been telling them about all the work up there and buying them bus tickets.


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## GrumpyPlumber

Michaelcookplum said:


> News flash, they're illegals all over DC and Northern VA! They've been here for years!! I hire them all the time to dig my groundworks for me


I get irritated with Mexicans sneaking here because when they work for dirt & it drives wages down....but in the same respect, I cannot fully hate someone who's willing to work 12 hr 6 day weeks just to live here.

I have a whole new level of contempt for those who hire them.


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## Michaelcookplum

GrumpyPlumber said:


> I get irritated with Mexicans sneaking here because when they work for dirt & it drives wages down....but in the same respect, I cannot fully hate someone who's willing to work 12 hr 6 day weeks just to live here.
> 
> I have a whole new level of contempt for those who hire them.


I mean some Of these guys are great people. This one guy has worked for us for 7+ years. He only digs. He is a backhoe. He came to America cause of some medical condition, he takes 10 plus pills a day to stay alive. He works to stay alive. And I know he's telling the truth. I've seen the pills and hospital work. 

But then there are plenty of illegals that will **** you over in a second. Up here that are very few Mexicans. It's mainly Bolivians, el salvadorians, and colombians. I've worked in southern CA do I know the difference between Mexicans and south Americans. Is much rather work with mexicans


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## GrumpyPlumber

Michaelcookplum said:


> I mean some Of these guys are great people.


I'm sure of it, again, I have a very low opinion for those who hire them for dirt and undercut the rest of us.

There's nothing noble in that, I've seen them packed by the dozen into vacant apartments on site, working 12 hr days for less than min wage, while the contractor drove up once a week in his BMW to pay them in cash.


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## Michaelcookplum

GrumpyPlumber said:


> I'm sure of it, again, I have a very low opinion for those who hire them for dirt and undercut the rest of us.
> 
> There's nothing noble in that, I've seen them packed by the dozen into vacant apartments on site, working 12 hr days for less than min wage, while the contractor drove up once a week in his BMW to pay them in cash.


I see your point, but the only reason this particular guy is hired is to help our company get the job done fast and cheaper. I do hate when a group of them undercut and steal jobs. We actually pay this guy $130 a day for 8hrs.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

*I'd rather turn my license in than run flex*





 



The pictures I saw on this thread were the first set I've seen where careful attention was put into the finished look.


However...


Why would I want to do something faster if I'm hourly. Why would I want to install something that we all know is by the discretion of a builder, not a plumber trying to save a buck.

Gas iron has a indefinite lifeline... It's only when installer error does that product fail. If you're stupid enough to put the piping in a set of concrete steps you deserve to be responsible.


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## TallCoolOne

Michaelcookplum said:


> I see your point, but the only reason this particular guy is hired is to help our company get the job done fast and cheaper. I do hate when a group of them undercut and steal jobs. We actually pay this guy $130 a day for 8hrs.


At the end of the year do you send him a 1099 or W-2

Not cool hiring illegals to do work Americans are willing to do


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## TallCoolOne

GrumpyPlumber said:


> I'm sure of it, again, I have a very low opinion for those who hire them for dirt and undercut the rest of us.
> 
> There's nothing noble in that, I've seen them packed by the dozen into vacant apartments on site, working 12 hr days for less than min wage, while the contractor drove up once a week in his BMW to pay them in cash.


Typical here in Dallas

People who hire them need to be fined and have thier business fined heavily or closed down.....


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## TallCoolOne

Michaelcookplum said:


> News flash, they're illegals all over DC and Northern VA! They've been here for years!! I hire them all the time to dig my groundworks for me


Oklahoma have tough laws on Illegals and it is a Felony to transport them or work them, hopefully more states will enact this law. 

Sadly all this did was to drive more Illegals back to Texas

http://articles.cnn.com/2007-11-02/...s-immigration-law-immigration-status?_s=PM:US


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## TallCoolOne

GrumpyPlumber said:


> I get irritated with Mexicans sneaking here because when they work for dirt & it drives wages down....but in the same respect, I cannot fully hate someone who's willing to work 12 hr 6 day weeks just to live here.


I can hate them, Cuz they don't want to conform to USA and learn English, all they want to do is send money back to Mexico and drop anchor babies.

We need to let people into the country who want to be US Citizens learn our culture and English. Heck look at the Philippines, they were a US Colony until US granted them independence after WW2, they all speak English and most are college educated.

They work harder than most Illegals Mexican, have longer work hours and make about 5 dollars per day, they would love to America.

But the USA will not let them enter the USA, but the USA welcome Illegals from Mexico and Central America with open arms, Pretty Fvcked up if you ask me.......


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## Michaelcookplum

TallCoolOne said:


> At the end of the year do you send him a 1099 or W-2
> 
> Not cool hiring illegals to do work Americans are willing to do


Americans are too slow and lazy these days, atleast around here, your not gonna find an American that wants to pick and shovel ditches all day.


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## Michaelcookplum

I agree with a lot of your statements, but dont put all of them in the same group. Thats straight up
Ignorance which is the basis of racism.


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## [email protected]

Black iron over csst hands down.


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## Gettinit

New or existing, black iron should be the only thing allowed to be used for gas.


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## OldSchool

Question 

Why would you put valves on either side of the regulator ????


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## Gettinit

OldSchool said:


> Question
> 
> Why would you put valves on either side of the regulator ????


Bigger question, why would you want to take all those damn connections loose to change the damn valve? They did it so they wouldn't blow the diaphram....needs to be disconnected in case some idiot open the valve or the valve doesn't hold.


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## OldSchool

Gettinit said:


> Bigger question, why would you want to take all those damn connections loose to change the damn valve?


It would have made more sense if there was a union between the vlave and the reg if his intention was to use the valves if he ever needed to change the reg


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## OldSchool

I would have tested the high on its own ... separate from the low side...

Here the time and pressure test pisg is different for high pressure and low pressure


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## TallCoolOne

With CSST pipe in my area we see lots of roofer put holes in the pipe when they roof a house.

I have seen a few CSST pipe that was pinholed to death from lighting strikes.

CSST is junk in my opinion, I have never ran it, but made many repairs on it


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## Gettinit

OldSchool said:


> I would have tested the high on its own ... separate from the low side...
> 
> Here the time and pressure test pisg is different for high pressure and low pressure


The inspectors know me around here. Whatever psi gauge I have I peg it out to the needle hits the last hash and run, even if it is a hundred psi gauge. They are pretty cool as long as when they push the schrader and the needle moves. They note the pressure, check out the rest of the system, come back and check the gauge, they are done. 

I usually just use a union before and after where the valve will go and repluace the jumper with the regulator. Leave a tag and the regulator on site so they know what I am going for and they see the correct size regulator for the job. Four places to spray after finishing and run.


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## Gettinit

TallCoolOne said:


> With CSST pipe in my area we see lots of roofer put holes in the pipe when they roof a house.
> 
> I have seen a few CSST pipe that was pinholed to death from lighting strikes.
> 
> CSST is junk in my opinion, I have never ran it, but made many repairs on it


I have seen pinholes from lightning strikes but only after ripping the whole thing out and completely skinning it back. It never showed penetrating the jacket, at least that I could see. I have never ran any either. I have replaced/repaired a bunch. Run more than a quarter pound through and it makes noise.


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## fightnews

NewSchool said:


> New construction guys:
> 
> Do you install csst or threaded pipe for your gas systems?
> 
> Csst sure is quick but is so expensive I'm not sure it really ends up cheaper with the saved labor.
> 
> Thoughts?


Use a combination. Mostly steel but csst for difficult runs like up to a attic.


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## east-indy

I prefer black iron for safety and cost. CSST should have a 6 awg copper bonding line ran too. This raises the cost of installation:

http://www.gastite.com/include/languages/english/downloads/pdfs/Gastite_D+I_Guide.pdf

Check out page 2, on lightning strikes.

Many housing additions in my area have almost exclusively used CSST, without proper bonding. I'm sure we'll hear about that in the news when entire neighborhoods burn down.


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## TraTech

So back to the conversation of black pipe vs csst, I do not like csst.
Its sloppy, easy to damage and doesnt not have a proven track record like black. What you save in labour you pay for in material costs.


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## Will

Back on topic, I have used both steel pipe and csst. I prefer black steel. But sometimes the hot shot architect who designed the home decides to go crazy, and csst is the only logical option.


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## affordabledrain

black pipe is the only way to go to me.


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## TraTech

Will said:


> Back on topic, I have used both steel pipe and csst. I prefer black steel. But sometimes the hot shot architect who designed the home decides to go crazy, and csst is the only logical option.


I can agree with that situation
I've come across that before. Csst probably has its place, but doing entire houses in it is just s¥#t


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## Michaelcookplum

It's interesting to read a lot of quotes, lots of you seem to run black and use csst for harder runs. My company we use all csst, from the meter to each fixture, or black from the meter to each fixture. Never have we done black and switched to csst for a harder run. It's all black or all csst. 

The only time we would use a combination is if during a remodel the house was done in black and the specs for new appliances were to be ran in csst.


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## user4

TraTech said:


> Its sloppy, easy to damage and doesnt not have a proven track record like black. What you save in labour you pay for in material costs.


The same could be said for PEX.


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## TraTech

Pex has been around since the 70s in Europe 
and when you damage a pex line it doesn't kill anyone.


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## pilot light

I have already got the ridgid 300 and the pipe! Thread on!:laughing:


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## mtl723

It all depends on what your runnin. If it just comes in and branches off no more than 1 story high 2 or 3 times black iron for money but if you got something like 4 fireplaces a grill a range a attic furnace then csst


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## 89plumbum

B.I. all the way! 300's gettin dusty!:laughing:


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