# hard piping traps



## Bill

I see from time to time where some plumber has hard piped a trap under the kitchen sink. I never done this. I cant remember the code on it, but I prefer to have a slip nut trap so that it can be taken apart if need be.

I saw Canadian Mike Holms allows his plumbers to do this and he is supposed to be the "Do It Right" guru!


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## Superplumber

Hard piping makes no sense to me. WTF ya gonna do when Momma drops here wedding ring in there.


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## SlickRick

I don't see any benefit hard piping a sink trap. Tubular has always worked fine. I hard pipe commercial kitchen sinks, but that's all.


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## LEAD INGOT

Bill said:


> I see from time to time where some plumber has hard piped a trap under the kitchen sink. I never done this. I cant remember the code on it, but I prefer to have a slip nut trap so that it can be taken apart if need be.
> 
> I saw Canadian Mike Holms allows his plumbers to do this and he is supposed to be the "Do It Right" guru!


 I've also seen his plumber use 30/34 inside of the house and sweat stops onto a copper stub 1 1/2" away from pex. Maybe something didn't get synched up in post, but it sure looked wrong.


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## bartnc37

You could have the geniuses who did my house. They used glue in tubular traps. The have compression connections at the the trap itself but glue into adapters coming out of the wall. Of course the adapters are tight to the hub, guess the old hub cutter is gonna be getting a workout when i start changing faucets


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## GREENPLUM

Superplumber said:


> Hard piping makes no sense to me. WTF ya gonna do when Momma drops here wedding ring in there.


 
Youre gonna call a plumber to get it out.:thumbsup:


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## pauliplumber

The only time I've ever had to hard pipe a trap (trap made up of 90's) is if I needed to have a deep seal as a result of the drain being roughed too high. Very rare though.


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## Ron

Tubular is the way to go, only place to hard pipe under sinks is in a commercial setting.


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## TheMaster

My folks have had a 2" glue up sch 40 p trap for 17 years...guess what? Its never had to be removed...why would it other than a mistake like dropping somthing down it? I've had a 2" trap under my sink for the past 10 years...guess what? I've never had to remove it? What if it cloggs in the trap due to some idiot cramming my disposal full of food???? Well thats what a sawzall is for...you cut it a few inches from the wall,disconnect the tubular tailpieces and take it out and clean it.....reinstall it with a solvent weld coupling or a shielded mission band. If you dont want to cut it out you can remove the basket strainer and run a cable in there and then reinstall a basket strainer. If its installed right and used right theres no reason to ever remove the trap.....my sink dont clog and I've been loaded before and dumped 20lbs of crawfish down it.


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## Ron

Tubular, loosen up slip joint nuts, trap the trap, no cutting needed, put it back together, no glue no mess, don't cost me more parts. no worries, I have never had to unclog my since and I have been in my house for 15 years, it is all tubular.


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## TheMaster

Ron The Plumber said:


> Tubular, loosen up slip joint nuts, trap the trap, no cutting needed, put it back together, no glue no mess, don't cost me more parts. no worries, I have never had to unclog my since and I have been in my house for 15 years, it is all tubular.


No plumber needed either.......also with slip joints you have a much greater call back percentage than with sch 40 solvent weld and its nothing you did wrong,its the maid or the teenager mad at his dad so he slams the garbage can back under the sink.....theres your leak and your call back. I've been plumbing and around plumbers along time and usually know whats best for repair plumbing. Its all about percentages. Have you ever taken it apart in 15 years???


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## Ron

TheMaster said:


> Have you ever taken it apart in 15 years???


Nope, don't need to it don't clog up. and if it does it comes apart as easy as I put it together.


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## TheMaster

Ron The Plumber said:


> Nope, don't need to it don't clog up. and if it does it comes apart as easy as I put it together.


 I think I understand now,your telling me that you'll never have to take it apart but if you ever decide to take it apart you can:thumbsup: I can understand that.


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## TheMaster

I get a sick feeling in my stomach when i walk into a house with a cloged kitchen sink with water to the top...and you open the cabinet doors below and you have tubular plastic staring you in the face with every joint leaking into God knows what all junk they are hoarding under there mixed with a few dead roaches. And may God be holding you hand if you decide to plunge it.......the crap blows apart and floods into the cabinet. With solvent weld wastes,that dont happen and 90% of clogs in the fixture arm i can unclog with a plunger. Tubular sucks unless your using some high dollar heavy ga. brass. I can build 10 sch 40 pvc wastes for what one brass one costs and have 100% leak free joints almost forever and it will never rot. Its a no brainer. Its just my opinion,I know people disagree with me and some will have valid points as to why but I dont think the positives of tubular out weigh the plus's of solvent weld sch 40. I want to stay fair and balanced


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## Ron

TheMaster said:


> I get a sick feeling in my stomach when i walk into a house with a cloged kitchen sink with water to the top


Sounds like the flu to me, we can't have you sick, maybe you need to go see the doc. :laughing:


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## pauliplumber

If you pipe sch 40 correctly, it's actually just as easy if not easier to take apart than tubular.

You can't tell me a slip nut connection is as good as a cemented connection.

It takes about 2 more minutes and 2 more dollars to use sched 40 over tubular. 

If a slip nut connection gets moved after install (as TM said usually by HO cramming stuff in cabinet) it might leak. This could potentially lead to a call back. I know this situation is rare, but it does happen.

Both ways are fine, but given the minute amount of extra effort, sch 40 when installed properly is simply better.


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## service guy

I don't mind hard piped kitchen wastes IF AND ONLY IF a proper cleanout is installed.:thumbsup: A majority of the time, there is no cleanout and I have to cut the hard trap out and repalce it with tubular, in order to get access to snake the drain. At least with tubular, the trap can be removed and used as a cleanout.


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## UnclogNH

Find them hard piped about 40% of the time here.


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## LEAD INGOT

I defy you to find a mobile home or modular that isn't. Who plumbs those things anyway, convicts.?


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## Bill

I am all for the tubular style. While I agree with those who say the hard pipe stays together better and longer I myself have never had any problems with the tubular's coming apart. Now, I do however after installing them fill the sink to overflow with hot water, then pulling the stopper. The hot water will soften the plastic and allow me to tighten the nuts even farther, thus when it cools it shrinks which creates a tighter seal.


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## TheMaster

Ron The Plumber said:


> Sounds like the flu to me, we can't have you sick, maybe you need to go see the doc. :laughing:


 I am the DR., Themaster and some peoples daddy even tho i dont have kids.:yes:


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## Ron

Bill said:


> I am all for the tubular style. While I agree with those who say the hard pipe stays together better and longer I myself have never had any problems with the tubular's coming apart. Now, I do however after installing them fill the sink to overflow with hot water, then pulling the stopper. The hot water will soften the plastic and allow me to tighten the nuts even farther, thus when it cools it shrinks which creates a tighter seal.


I'm with you Bill on this 100%


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## TheMaster

Bill said:


> I am all for the tubular style. While I agree with those who say the hard pipe stays together better and longer I myself have never had any problems with the tubular's coming apart. Now, I do however after installing them fill the sink to overflow with hot water, then pulling the stopper. The hot water will soften the plastic and allow me to tighten the nuts even farther, thus when it cools it shrinks which creates a tighter seal.


 What happens when the homeowner pours some boiling water from some pasta they cooked? The expansion and contraction is why exactly why those plastic tubular wastes leak.....the nuts loosen themselves. They just have a higher leak percentage period and its nothing that can be done to prevent it. It does not like to be bumped and it doesn't like hot water at all. I say if your going tubular on me....do it with atleast 17 ga brass:laughing: Please dont go tubular:laughing: Everybody has there "way" and thats cool as well,it keeps me busy:thumbsup:. I've used the tubular plastic before...all different types and its just not as reliable as sch.40 solvent. I shoot for 100 percent reliability with repair...the more places i can eleminate a possible leak....I do it. I do this with everything I work on.


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## user4

I think all the fans of hard piping sink wastes would change their tune if they had to do it in copper as opposed to lick it and stick it pipe. One slip with the torch and you are explaining to the homeowner how that burn mark got on their cherrywood cabinetry.


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## Ron

Where is hilgore when you need him. :laughing:


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## Plumbworker

i cant install plastic.. 17ga tube for residential and hard pipe copper for commercial


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## TheMaster

Killertoiletspider said:


> I think all the fans of hard piping sink wastes would change their tune if they had to do it in copper as opposed to lick it and stick it pipe. One slip with the torch and you are explaining to the homeowner how that burn mark got on their cherrywood cabinetry.


 I would gladly do it in copper if people would be willing to pay for the time and material it takes. It makes no difference to me. I will agree that copper will not come apart like the slip joint stuff. Anythings better than tubular plastic wastes. Name somthing worse than a tubular plastic end or center outlet low hookup waste for a kitchen sink...I cant.


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## SlickRick

I run fused acid waste piping on mine.


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## TheMaster

slickrick said:


> I run fused acid waste piping on mine.


 The grey stuff with wire snaked though the hub and two hook up's to fuse it with? .....Nice.


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## jeffreyplumber

Acid waste is also available in cpvc all glue same mold as pvc and abs, used it on Newport highschool science lab. And if you want to use abs you can get a glue in trap with union, so you dont have to cut it out. Agreed though you seldom need to remove.


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## TheMaster

heres a solvent weld trap.....I replaced the pop-up assembly. I tell ya....the job was sweeet & Freshhhhhh:laughing:


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## SlickRick

Whats that orange stuff all over the pipe?


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## TheMaster

slickrick said:


> Whats that orange stuff all over the pipe?


 I really dont know I guess its glue. The house was built in the late 70's so its over 30 years old and guess what......Its never been replaced,never leaked a drop and doesn't have a coupling in it. ITS OVER 30 YEARS OLD nOW WHO SAYS pvc IS NO good??????:blink: wtf EVER.:laughing:


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## JK949

The first thing my wife saw in that pic is the douche kit. Are you trying to say something on the down low?


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## jeffreyplumber

Every one has their preferance. Clearly that pvc is just fine we have tubs and showers all glue you dont open up ever either.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

I used to hard pipe my rental properties in this fashion. All sch40 pvc but when the majority has tubular, tubular is going back in.


I'm really concerned about the fumes, being exposed to glue and cleaner at this point. The less I am around it, the better I feel about not using it.

How could anything that explodes, knowing you're pulling into your nostrils and breathing passage ways, on your skin *not* be harmful.


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## pauliplumber

This is how I typically "hard pipe" a dbl bowl kitchen drain. Unscrew the marvel nuts and the trap nut and it easily comes apart for cleaning. When possible I like to have the disposal going directly into the trap (opposite of what you see here).


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## dankman

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I used to hard pipe my rental properties in this fashion. All sch40 pvc but when the majority has tubular, tubular is going back in.
> 
> 
> I'm really concerned about the fumes, being exposed to glue and cleaner at this point. The less I am around it, the better I feel about not using it.
> 
> How could anything that explodes, knowing you're pulling into your nostrils and breathing passage ways, on your skin *not* be harmful.


Your biggest fear using PVC cement is from methyl ethyl ketone, it's the most harmful of the substances found in PVC primer/cleaner and cement but for some reason we don't have hard evidence about the effects of long term exposure in people readily available to us.

http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/methylet.html

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/methylethylketone/



I use PVC pretty often and make a point to ventilate the room I'm in when I do, I need to save my liver for better uses like converting alcohol to sugar.


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## retired rooter

hack saw either pvs, abs, or copper then slip over fernco. cha ching but only to remove some thing extreeeemly valuable othervise run the small cable thru trap and move on but (NEVER GURANTEE YOU CAN GET IT OUT I HAVE USED SHOP VACS ONCE OR TWICE)


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## Ron

I just got back from replumbing under a kitchen sink, used ABS tubular waste, and trap, looked good and no leaks 1st time around like always.


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## 1plumb4uall

(I feel like an old man) Sonny when I started out plumbing it was in LA, We couldnt use tubular traps it wasn't to code. There was a LA code trap it was brass with a slip joint inlet, a ground joint union in the middle and FIP threads on the exit side.
And when I moved to the mid west we was plumbing apartment buildings and only using all glue traps with a trap adapter. Ha Ha when the drain pluged you had to cut the trap arm to gain access. (made them rooter guys earn their money).
But now times have changed tubular traps are sure more practical. But heres a quiz it was on my 1st journeymans license test: 1- Name the 5 parts to a trap. 2- Explain how a trap can loose its seal?
Oh yes 3- Why is a manhole round?


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## Hyper Piper

TheMaster said:


> My folks have had a 2" glue up sch 40 p trap for 17 years...guess what? Its never had to be removed...why would it other than a mistake like dropping somthing down it? I've had a 2" trap under my sink for the past 10 years...guess what? I've never had to remove it? What if it cloggs in the trap due to some idiot cramming my disposal full of food???? Well thats what a sawzall is for...you cut it a few inches from the wall,disconnect the tubular tailpieces and take it out and clean it.....reinstall it with a solvent weld coupling or a shielded mission band. If you dont want to cut it out you can remove the basket strainer and run a cable in there and then reinstall a basket strainer. If its installed right and used right theres no reason to ever remove the trap.....my sink dont clog and I've been loaded before and dumped 20lbs of crawfish down it.


You've been loaded before?


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## TheMaster

Hyper Piper said:


> You've been loaded before?


 Just once:yes::laughing:


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## fhrace

inlet,outlet,dip,weir,crown.

self siphonage, capillary action, evaporation.

so the cover wont fall back into the hole


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## 1plumb4uall

Ah and the winner is:




fhrace said:


> inlet,outlet,dip,weir,crown.
> 
> self siphonage, capillary action, evaporation.
> 
> so the cover wont fall back into the hole


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## liquidplumber

fhrace said:


> self siphonage, capillary action, evaporation.


Don't forget aspiration,momentum,oscillation,backpressure and leaks.


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## pauliplumber

Please the customer, get paid, go home. Isn't that all that really matters?


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## fhrace

No I win


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## service guy

WHere is the cleanout? What a wreck!


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## Miguel

service guy said:


> WHere is the cleanout? What a wreck!


Now that's funny right there! :laughing:
Actually it looks like a SJ or some kinda chrome nut on the P-trap (hope it's not homemade :blink so if that's the case then just undo the one at the disposer and t'other at the other bowl and the whole works could come out as a unit. Blow on it like a tuba? :laughing:

I like using the traps with the union nut and a big ol' CO. A colleague of mine won't let his guys use the adjustable traps OR ones with a cleanout! Says they leak too much. I told him I could come over and give him some lessons if he wanted (he was my helper years ago). He told me that'd be fine as long as I was buying.

_Edit: Btw, cleanouts at least half the nominal size of the trap it serves are code here._


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## fhrace

Here that disposal drain would be illegal because the code states that a disposal has to be on its own trap and not continuous.


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## Miguel

Not required here but it probably _should_ be.
I like that and try to WYE in another trap on the trap arm. However I'm breaking our code whenever I do it that way.


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## beachplumber

I always use hard trap on a kitchen, and most of the time on a lav too. We have a lot of rentals here, and when somebody rents a big ole house for 10-15k a week they tend to be hard on it. I have less call backs with the glue traps. I to try to put a disposal on its own trap, I've had problem with the disposal coming up into the other side of the sink. Putting it on a trap by itself fixes it


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## Ron

Double trapping a fixture is against code here.


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## Miguel

Ron The Plumber said:


> Double trapping a fixture is against code here.


Not double trapped, just individually trapped. My beef is that they both drain into the same trap arm (only one vent and not a cert. weet vent. Thereby it goes against code. And actually, it's not a beef by me but rather the "authorities having jursidiction" saying that each trap needs to be individually vented.

I'm all for having a trap for a disposer and a trap for a KS utilizing the same vent. It qualifies for an exemption or something.


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## Ron

They call that double trapping here, you can't have more then one trap under the kitchen sink here, I know what you meant.

One trap per trap arm.


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## service guy

I have two traps in my house under the kitchen sink....and two trap arms, they tee together in the wall to vent. They are individually vented since they have separate trap arms directly off the vent stack.:thumbsup:


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## Ron

service guy said:


> I have two traps in my house under the kitchen sink....and two trap arms, they tee together in the wall to vent. They are individually vented since they have separate trap arms directly off the vent stack.:thumbsup:



Code approved in that setup.


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## Miguel

service guy said:


> I have two traps in my house under the kitchen sink....and two trap arms, they tee together in the wall to vent. They are individually vented since they have separate trap arms directly off the vent stack.:thumbsup:


And as Ron pointed out, perfectly to code. 

So, two stub-outs, one above the other? I can see where that would have advantages over trying to tie it all in on a horiz trap arm.

Weird how the code works from one locale to another. If I stubbed out two trap arms, one above the other, it wouldn't matter what inspector I had here but they'd fail me.
Yet, depending on the inspector and how he interprets the code, I can "double-trap" (that has a different meaning here ) as I described above and mebbe even get kudos for doing so, yet a governing body in a different municipality would fail that, too.

That's what I like about plumbing! Straightforward! It all goes downhill and payday is on friday.


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## Ron

Now say it was done this way, this creates a wet vent on a suds producing fixture this is not allowed, even though there are two trap arms individually connected to the vent stack.


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## Ron

Now you can do this if you want two traps.


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## fhrace

I don't see it as double trapping. Doesn't it mean it flows from one trap to the next? It's not any different than a horizontal common vent.


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## Miguel

fhrace said:


> I don't see it as double trapping. Doesn't it mean it flows from one trap to the next? It's not any different than a horizontal common vent.


"Common venting" as you put it isn't allowed here. the second drawing as Ron posted is how we'd have to do it here. If we know ahead of time we can easily allow for it.

_Edit: Your interpretation of double trapping is similar to mine I think. I can't think of any code that allows it._


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## Ron

fhrace said:


> I don't see it as double trapping. Doesn't it mean it flows from one trap to the next? It's not any different than a horizontal common vent.


If I have to show you in my code that it in fact it is called double trapped, here it is.


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## fhrace

Horizontal common vent: The fixture drains from 2 wall outlet fixtures, each with a dfu value of one or less, or the fixture drains from 2 traps serving a kitchen sink with or without a dishwaser may connect to a horizontal branch without individual vents provided a common vent connects to the branch drain downstream of both fixture drains. Both fixture drains shall be of the same diameter


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## Miguel

Oh now there's confusion!

See each bowl of a KS is considered 1.5 FU (here in Valhalla). The disposer adds 1 so that bowl becomes *2*.5 FU + 1.5 (other bowl)

See guys we should just go along with the DIY'ers. They don't care about crap like that.


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## fhrace

fhrace said:


> Horizontal common vent: The fixture drains from 2 wall outlet fixtures, each with a dfu value of one or less, or the fixture drains from 2 traps serving a kitchen sink with or without a dishwaser may connect to a horizontal branch without individual vents provided a common vent connects to the branch drain downstream of both fixture drains. Both fixture drains shall be of the same diameter


I think this is an either or kinda thing


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## fhrace

Sorry about that double post. Didn't see that it wen through. But I still don't see it as double trapping. I really don't mean to argue but I see double trapping as flowing from one trap into the next trap.


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## Miguel

fhrace said:


> I think this is an either or kinda thing


Yeah. It's a no-win headbanger. :laughing:

Also, the disposers are considered a no-no depending on where you are, too. I did some piping at 3 municipal treatment plants (three separate townships) and they all hate them! Adds to the burden of trying to neutralize the wastewater before they flush it out into the hinterland (or out to sea). And they really do notice the added burden. That and basement sump pumps that discharge into the sanitary sys. :whistling2:

As for the under sink plbg I like Ron's last drwg the best. That could easily pass here.


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## beachplumber

disposals here are job security. If your willing to work thanksgiving day.


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## Ron

fhrace said:


> Sorry about that double post. Didn't see that it wen through.


Fixed.


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## fhrace

Thanks Ron


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## Miguel

So it's a Triumph, eh? I can see it now looking closely.

(That was my first ride but didn't look anything like that!) I went to Kaw just for performance and rider comfort back then (I raced them) but I'm glad to see the progression!


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## fhrace

Good eye Mike!


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## jeffreyplumber

My Code Upc Does not allow double traping As defined by 2 traps on the same trap arm. But we allow wet venting so stacking the tees works. Some of the old homes have a castiron tapped santee with 2 outlets on a 90 degree ,So when you point it out the wall each is pointing on a 45 , pretty clean way they used to plumb 2 compartment sink


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## 1plumb4uall

*Double trap*

Around here in Iowa we use 2 traps on the kitchen drain, I see that quote of the code but we are not putting 2 traps in a row just 1 trap for each side of the sink. But yes we stack 2 tees lol and we go longer on our trap arms than UPC allows




Ron The Plumber said:


> If I have to show you in my code that it in fact it is called double trapped, here it is.


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## BCT

I don't see a problem hard piping a kitchen since you are supposed to use a trap with a clean out and provide a fill size clean out before the trap.



Ron said:


> Now say it was done this way, this creates a wet vent on a suds producing fixture this is not allowed, even though there are two trap arms individually connected to the vent stack.


That would be a common vent, not a wet vet, and is perfectly legal for a kitchen sink (at least in MA) A wet vent is venting a floor mounted fixture, like a bath or toilet, through a lav.


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## TheMaster

BCT said:


> I don't see a problem hard piping a kitchen since you are supposed to use a trap with a clean out and provide a fill size clean out before the trap.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be a common vent, not a wet vet, and is perfectly legal for a kitchen sink (at least in MA) A wet vent is venting a floor mounted fixture, like a bath or toilet, through a lav.


 The lower fixture on that stack is wet vented in the 1st drawing master Ron submitted.The portion of the vent above the highest fixture would be considered a common vent because its venting two or more fixtures.


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## BCT

TheMaster said:


> The lower fixture on that stack is wet vented in the 1st drawing master Ron submitted.The portion of the vent above the highest fixture would be considered a common vent because its venting two or more fixtures.


Maybe it's different where you guys are but in MA a wet vent is for venting floor mounted fixtures and can't be done through a kitchen sink, or a laundry for that matter. His picture is almost identical to the one in the back of the MA code book for common venting. The only thing his picture is missing is the traps and the notes saying the t-wyes cannot be more than 10" apart and must be a minimum of 2" for the vertical drain piping.


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## Miguel

We can wet vent under our code but there's no way to do it within the confines of a KS cabinet. (_ie: venting fixture tie-in to be between 18" - 5' from weir of vented trap, etc_) 
Floor mounted and siphonic traps are the preferred fixtures to be wet vented, tubs, showers, WC's and trap standards.

Of course, the way it's written could lend itself to long discussions over interpretation. :whistling2:


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## TheMaster

BCT said:


> Maybe it's different where you guys are but in MA a wet vent is for venting floor mounted fixtures and can't be done through a kitchen sink, or a laundry for that matter. His picture is almost identical to the one in the back of the MA code book for common venting. The only thing his picture is missing is the traps and the notes saying the t-wyes cannot be more than 10" apart and must be a minimum of 2" for the vertical drain piping.


 Location has nothing to do with it.....my location or the fixtures location....its the piping arrangement. The lower fixture IS WET VENTED now if your codebook allows that then fine,if they dont then fine too. Its wet vented even though your book may not consider it wet vented for your codes purpose. Its wet vented because another fixture dumps over it......and that section is also the vent for the lower fixture=wet vent. Saying that a fixture can only be wet vented if it sits on the floor is nuts:laughing:....any fixture can be wet vented regardless of WHERE its installed,it just may not meet your code.


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## Miguel

TheMaster said:


> Location has nothing to do with it.....my location or the fixtures location....its the piping arrangement. The lower fixture IS WET VENTED now if your codebook allows that then fine,if they dont then fine too. Its wet vented even though your book may not consider it wet vented for your codes purpose. Its wet vented because another fixture dumps over it......and that section is also the vent for the lower fixture=wet vent. Saying that a fixture can only be wet vented if it sits on the floor is nuts:laughing:....any fixture can be wet vented regardless of WHERE its installed,it just may not meet your code.


Again, it's all interpretation. An inspector here would stay that you can't stack vent on anything smaller than a 3" stack. You say tomato, inspector says whatever he dam well pleases. :laughing:


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## TheMaster

Miguel said:


> Again, it's all interpretation. An inspector here would stay that you can't stack vent on anything smaller than a 3" stack. You say tomato, inspector says whatever he dam well pleases. :laughing:


 All I'm saying is what ron put up was a wet vent for the lower fixture unless you start adding in EXCEPTIONS like fittings 10" apart.......Now with that said...if a big company rolls into town wanting to build a big Hotel the rules may change to 15" apart or 18" apart or whatever will suit the design......and they will call it whatever they want.....but its a wet vent to me. Codes like that are crap...they cater to sombody for a reason and the reason is money. I posted some pics of a 48" trap arm in Biloxi,Ms...you think that met the city code????? Well hell yeah it did after they changed it for them:laughing: but not before the Mirage Hotel and Casino decided to spend a few million and employee a few thousand people in the city.


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## BCT

TheMaster said:


> Location has nothing to do with it.....my location or the fixtures location....its the piping arrangement. The lower fixture IS WET VENTED now if your codebook allows that then fine,if they dont then fine too. Its wet vented even though your book may not consider it wet vented for your codes purpose. Its wet vented because another fixture dumps over it......and that section is also the vent for the lower fixture=wet vent. Saying that a fixture can only be wet vented if it sits on the floor is nuts:laughing:....any fixture can be wet vented regardless of WHERE its installed,it just may not meet your code.


I was talking location because MA has it's own f-ed up code that is different than the rest of the country and what they call something may not be the way the rest of country calls the same thing. I completely understand what you mean but it's just not called that here. According to MA code a wet vent is when you use the waste line for a lav as a vent for a floor mounted fixture and must be a minimum of 2" and must be on the same floor as each other. By saying that the common vent he pictured is a wet vent would be the same as saying a stack vent is a wet vent if you have a lav on it, we're arguing semantics here. Sure there is water washing down on the vent but why call it a generalized name when there is a specific name for just that situation?
In MA code you could do what he pictured with a kitchen sink but they won't let you wet vent through one. There is a reason they call it two different things even though they both have water washing down the vent.


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## TheMaster

BCT said:


> I was talking location because MA has it's own f-ed up code that is different than the rest of the country and what they call something may not be the way the rest of country calls the same thing. I completely understand what you mean but it's just not called that here. According to MA code a wet vent is when you use the waste line for a lav as a vent for a floor mounted fixture and must be a minimum of 2" and must be on the same floor as each other. By saying that the common vent he pictured is a wet vent would be the same as saying a stack vent is a wet vent if you have a lav on it, we're arguing semantics here. Sure there is water washing down on the vent but why call it a generalized name when there is a specific name for just that situation?
> In MA code you could do what he pictured with a kitchen sink but they won't let you wet vent through one. There is a reason they call it two different things even though they both have water washing down the vent.


Your codebook is fine for plumbing in Ma. They can name stuff whatever they want and its all good. But what I'm telling you is a fact.....the lower fixture is WET VENTED and if you show anybody that drawing that ron posted ..WITHOUT A CODEBOOK REFERENCE.....they would call it wet vented. play on player. Those jerkoffs that write those books are not as smart as you think.....thats why it keeps changing:laughing:


----------



## ILPlumber

They have water washing down the vent but, they are not wet vented:laughing::laughing:


That is almost sig line worthy


----------



## TheMaster

Take a bathroom group of a lavatory,bathtub and toilet. You have one 3" vent. The bathtub and the toilet are installed on a wisconsin fitting. The lavatory is connected to the stack with a 3x1.5" tee. The tub and the toilet are wet vented in this scenario by the lavatory dumping over them. Call the entire vent a stack vent...fine...but the lower fixtures are still vented and their vent is wet......the name of the entire stack does not change the fact that those two lower fixtures are wet vented.


----------



## ILPlumber

What if it's raining outside...:laughing:


----------



## BCT

TheMaster said:


> Your codebook is fine for plumbing in Ma. They can name stuff whatever they want and its all good. But what I'm telling you is a fact.....the lower fixture is WET VENTED and if you show anybody that drawing that ron posted ..WITHOUT A CODEBOOK REFERENCE.....they would call it wet vented. play on player. Those jerkoffs that write those books are not as smart as you think.....thats why it keeps changing:laughing:


I've never heard anyone call what he drew a wet vent. I've always heard it called a common vent but that might be because I work 99% of the time in MA. 
Why wouldn't you reference the the code book in the code section here?
I never claimed the people that write the code book are smart, if they were half of what is in there wouldn't be there. Up until a few years ago you would have to get special permission from the inspector just to do a bow vent around here.


----------



## ILPlumber

A common vent has drains coming off at the same height.


----------



## TheMaster

I remember fighting with my plumbing instructor over this very subject. A common vent can contain a wet vent if the connection to the stack is made at different elevations. That would make a portion of the common vent WET. The portion above the highest fixture would be the common vent as to serve more than one fixture(common) to be clear.


----------



## BCT

TheMaster said:


> Take a bathroom group of a lavatory,bathtub and toilet. You have one 3" vent. The bathtub and the toilet are installed on a wisconsin fitting. The lavatory is connected to the stack with a 3x1.5" tee. The tub and the toilet are wet vented in this scenario by the lavatory dumping over them. Call the entire vent a stack vent...fine...but the lower fixtures are still vented and their vent is wet......the name of the entire stack does not change the fact that those two lower fixtures are wet vented.


Is a Wisconsin fitting a T-wye with an extra inlet at a 45 to the branch? Around here they are called an estabrook, told you MA was f-ed up :laughing:

I already used that same example earlier. I would call that a stack vent, I wouldn't say wet vented. If an inspector asked you how you vented those fixtures what would you say? 

All I'm saying is that there is a different name for a common vent, stack vent and a wet vent because they are slightly different even though there is water washing down the vents in all three. 

By definition a square is also a rectangle but a rectangle is not always a square. In my eyes if all 4 sides are the same and all angles are 90 degrees I'm not going to call it a rectangle even though by definition it is. See where I'm going with this?


----------



## ILPlumber

(c) Different Levels. A vertical vent may be used for two fixtures that are located in the same branch interval but connected to the stack at different levels, not exceeding ten inches center to center, provided:

The vertical drain is one pipe diameter larger than the upper fixture drain but is not smaller than the lower fixture drain, whichever is the larger.
That both wastes for said fixtures conform to 248 CMR 10.16(12): Table 1: Distance of Fixture Trap from Vent.
As you can see above the fine people of MA call a wet vent a common vent. I didn't copy paste the whole thing but it is under common vent in their code.

When your semantics don't match mine, it bugs me. And you are automatically wrong:laughing:


----------



## ILPlumber

But wait, there's more. They also address "wet venting" in their code. So at least they use the terminology in the MA code.

(d) Miscellaneous Wet Venting.

A two inch or larger waste pipe installed with drainage fittings may serve as a wet vent.
The lowest portion of this horizontal pipe serving as the wet vent shall be above the top or above the center line of the horizontal drain it serves except as specifically prohibited in 248 CMR 10.16(8)(e).
Toilets in a bathroom below the top floor need not be individually vented if the two inch wet vented waste, serving the lavatories and bath tubs or showers connect directly to the horizontal portion of the fixture branch for the toilet by breaking the centerline or connect above the centerline of the horizontal fixture drain servicing the toilet.


----------



## BCT

ILPlumber said:


> A common vent has drains coming off at the same height.


In MA they don't have to be at the same height, just as long as they are within 10" vertically of each other. That's why I was making such a big deal about where you are because obviously codes aren't the same everywhere and from what I understand MA is the most different from any other state. 




TheMaster said:


> I remember fighting with my plumbing instructor over this very subject. A common vent can contain a wet vent if the connection to the stack is made at different elevations. That would make a portion of the common vent WET. The portion above the highest fixture would be the common vent as to serve more than one fixture(common) to be clear.


It's all about interpretation. By the way you're saying it as soon as you tie two vents together they become a common vent. So that would make a vent stack a common vent to every vent in the building that has been tied into it.


----------



## BCT

ILPlumber said:


> (c) Different Levels. A vertical vent may be used for two fixtures that are located in the same branch interval but connected to the stack at different levels, not exceeding ten inches center to center, provided:
> 
> The vertical drain is one pipe diameter larger than the upper fixture drain but is not smaller than the lower fixture drain, whichever is the larger.
> That both wastes for said fixtures conform to 248 CMR 10.16(12): Table 1: Distance of Fixture Trap from Vent.
> As you can see above the fine people of MA call a wet vent a common vent. I didn't copy paste the whole thing but it is under common vent in their code.
> 
> When your semantics don't match mine, it bugs me. And you are automatically wrong:laughing:





ILPlumber said:


> But wait, there's more. They also address "wet venting" in their code. So at least they use the terminology in the MA code.
> 
> (d) Miscellaneous Wet Venting.
> 
> A two inch or larger waste pipe installed with drainage fittings may serve as a wet vent.
> The lowest portion of this horizontal pipe serving as the wet vent shall be above the top or above the center line of the horizontal drain it serves except as specifically prohibited in 248 CMR 10.16(8)(e).
> Toilets in a bathroom below the top floor need not be individually vented if the two inch wet vented waste, serving the lavatories and bath tubs or showers connect directly to the horizontal portion of the fixture branch for the toilet by breaking the centerline or connect above the centerline of the horizontal fixture drain servicing the toilet.


Do you also have the drawings from the MA code book? If you do look at the ones for a common vent, one of them is almost identical to the one we've been talking about. Also none of the drawings labeled as a wet vent is what we've been talking about. All I have to go by is what I know and all that has come from the MA code book. If your book says something different then I would be wrong where you are but that would make you wrong in MA if that makes any sense :blink:


----------



## fhrace

Can we slow down! What the heck is a wisconsin fitting? You makin fun of us?


----------



## ILPlumber

I didn't surf to the drawings page. I am far too lazy to do so at this time.


----------



## TheMaster

BCT said:


> In MA they don't have to be at the same height, just as long as they are within 10" vertically of each other. That's why I was making such a big deal about where you are because obviously codes aren't the same everywhere and from what I understand MA is the most different from any other state.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's all about interpretation. By the way you're saying it as soon as you tie two vents together they become a common vent. So that would make a vent stack a common vent to every vent in the building that has been tied into it.


 I dont think you understand that a vent can be called many things depending on what PORTION of the vent your refering to. BTW Rons picture didn't have deminsions on it so how do you know its within 10" of each other? Since we are being so technical,i thought i'd drop that one on ya after about 5 or 6 posts. I prefer to see things as they are....then refer to code for an exception to my thoughts......I see that as what it is...a wet vent.....but then I would read the exception in your codebook and plumb accordingly. You however would rather see it as a common vent with exceptions.......Ok whatever but if you plumb in alot of different places your way of thinking will eventually fk u up.


----------



## BCT

TheMaster said:


> I dont think you understand that a vent can be called many things depending on what PORTION of the vent your refering to. BTW Rons picture didn't have deminsions on it so how do you know its within 10" of each other? Since we are being so technical,i thought i'd drop that one on ya after about 5 or 6 posts. I prefer to see things as they are....then refer to code for an exception to my thoughts......I see that as what it is...a wet vent.....but then I would read the exception in your codebook and plumb accordingly. You however would rather see it as a common vent with exceptions.......Ok whatever but if you plumb in alot of different places your way of thinking will eventually fk u up.


As they are in MA that would be a common vent if you look at the whole picture. I can only argue it as the way I know and I don't know the code in your state. Just because it's called something different doesn't make it right or wrong.




TheMaster said:


> BTW Rons picture didn't have deminsions on it so how do you know its within 10" of each other? Since we are being so technical,i thought i'd drop that one on ya after about 5 or 6 posts.


Way ahead of you on that.




BCT said:


> Maybe it's different where you guys are but in MA a wet vent is for venting floor mounted fixtures and can't be done through a kitchen sink, or a laundry for that matter. His picture is almost identical to the one in the back of the MA code book for common venting. *The only thing his picture is missing is the traps and the notes saying the t-wyes cannot be more than 10" apart *and must be a minimum of 2" for the vertical drain piping.


----------



## TheMaster

BCT said:


> I don't see a problem hard piping a kitchen since you are supposed to use a trap with a clean out and provide a fill size clean out before the trap.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be a common vent, not a wet vet, and is perfectly legal for a kitchen sink (at least in MA) A wet vent is venting a floor mounted fixture, like a bath or toilet, through a lav.


I dont see any reference to 10" apart on the tee's? How far ahead are you?



BCT said:


> As they are in MA that would be a common vent if you look at the whole picture. I can only argue it as the way I know and I don't know the code in your state. Just because it's called something different doesn't make it right or wrong.
> Way ahead of you on that.


 Your still missing my point. We are calling it a wet vent because by function that is what it is..... YOUR code is not considering it a wet vent based on the 10" exception. Now they have you thinking its not a wet vent based on a code exception. Think like that if you want but if you plan to travel around you need to know how to SEE a wet vent situation no matter what the MA code calls it.. To sum it up you have let your code dictate the definition of a wet vent.....and thats fine if you only use that code . Meanwhile in reality its a wet vent with a 10" maximum seperation between horizontal to vertical entry to the vent exception that MA calls a common vent to the rest of the world.


----------



## ILPlumber

By the way.

A tee-wye, combo, long sweep tee, y and 1/8th bend, or whatever the hell else you people call it cannot be used for a lav drain.


----------



## BCT

TheMaster said:


> I dont see any reference to 10" apart on the tee's? How far ahead are you?
> 
> My second post in this thread, which I just quoted and even made my reference in bold on the last page but here it is again for you in bold italics and even underlined.
> 
> 
> 
> BCT said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it's different where you guys are but in MA a wet vent is for venting floor mounted fixtures and can't be done through a kitchen sink, or a laundry for that matter. His picture is almost identical to the one in the back of the MA code book for common venting. _*The only thing his picture is missing is the traps and the notes saying the t-wyes cannot be more than 10" apart*_ and must be a minimum of 2" for the vertical drain piping.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your still missing my point. We are calling it a wet vent because by function that is what it is..... YOUR code is not considering it a wet vent based on the 10" exception. Now they have you thinking its not a wet vent based on a code exception. Think like that if you want but if you plan to travel around you need to know how to SEE a wet vent situation no matter what the MA code calls it.. To sum it up you have let your code dictate the definition of a wet vent.....and thats fine if you only use that code . Meanwhile in reality its a wet vent with a 10" maximum seperation between horizontal to vertical entry to the vent exception that MA calls a common vent to the rest of the world.
Click to expand...

It's the 10" exception that makes that legal. If you go over 10" it would not be legal and wouldn't be considered a wet vent, not that it would be considered one in MA anyway. An inspector would make you cut in another vent on the vertical on the lower waste line. The whole reasoning behind the 10" thing is if you go over that there is a chance that the momentum from the water draining from the top line could pull the water out of the trap of the lower line. In a wet vent the only distance that matters is the one from the trap to the vent line. In a common vent that 10" distance is critical. I originally said it wasn't a wet vent because in my code book, we are in the code section here after all, says it is a common vent. Your book may say something completely different. Does your book have a definition for a common vent? At the end of the day you can call it whatever you want but it's the book that we are supposed to go by and that's what my book calls it.


----------



## BCT

ILPlumber said:


> By the way.
> 
> A tee-wye, combo, long sweep tee, y and 1/8th bend, or whatever the hell else you people call it cannot be used for a lav drain.


In MA you are only supposed to used a T-wye if you're running vertical, and a wye and 1/8th or combo if you're running horizontal. What do you use?


----------



## ILPlumber

BCT said:


> In MA you are only supposed to used a T-wye if you're running vertical, and a wye and 1/8th or combo if you're running horizontal. What do you use?


do you call a sanitary tee a tee-wye?

The 10" thing is in the mass. Code tm.


----------



## BCT

ILPlumber said:


> do you call a sanitary tee a tee-wye?
> 
> The 10" thing is in the mass. Code tm.


Yup. What do you call it?


----------



## ILPlumber

BCT said:


> Yup. What do you call it?


a sanitary tee.


----------



## fhrace

BCT said:


> Yup. What do you call it?


 
They are?


----------



## BCT

ILPlumber said:


> a sanitary tee.


I figured that haha I meant what do you consider a t-wye?


----------



## BCT

off topic:

fhrace, is that a Speed Triple you have there?


----------



## pauliplumber

Well atleast I know what a "wisconsin" fitting is now, it's an estabrook:thumbup:


----------



## ILPlumber

BCT said:


> I figured that haha I meant what do you consider a t-wye?


I call them combo or long sweep tee.


----------



## Ron

ILPlumber said:


> I call them combo or long sweep tee.


I call them Combo's, and I call a TY, a wye with a steet 45


----------



## fhrace

Hold on a second where the heck did the wisconsin reference derive from?

Yes it is a triple


----------



## Protech

It can if it's 2".



ILPlumber said:


> By the way.
> 
> A tee-wye, combo, long sweep tee, y and 1/8th bend, or whatever the hell else you people call it cannot be used for a lav drain.


----------



## Ron

The only place that I will do a wet vent is a lav trap arm connecting to a toilet vent. I have wet vented a lav into a shower vent a couple of times, providing the vent is one pipe size larger then the upper fixture it serves, it is code.


----------



## Miguel

Combo or 90° WYE. We call sanitary TEE's "TY's" but mebbe something just got lost in the translation... or the Queen wanted it said that way. :blink:

:heh: Everyone is really trying to get the "went vent" discussion behind us but I gotta add one more thing.

*Everyone *that uses wet venting check your code's definition and see if it doesn't mention somewhere that the wet portion of the vent ties to the _horizontal_ drain of the vented trap.
You may also find that any reference to common venting refers to drains horizontally connected to a stack and the stack is also the vent (with a san TEE (or a TY around here but not if it's one of those _illegal_ TY's)) :laughing::jester:

Not trying to start anything here but . . . well maybe I am . . . but in a healthy discussion kinda way.


----------



## Miguel

Ron said:


> The only place that I will do a wet vent is a lav trap arm connecting to a toilet vent. I have wet vented a lav into a shower vent a couple of times, providing the vent is one pipe size larger then the upper fixture it serves, it is code.


I often use lav's to wet vent toilets and prefer it if it's not a stack vented group. (The way houses are designed these days how often do you get a nice stack vented group???)

On the tubs/showers wet vented by a lav, traditionally the lav's are 1-1/4" waste but since the advent of plastic we (here, at least) rarely use 1-1/4" pipe and fittings so the typical washbasin gets an 1-1/2" drain, trap and all. _Technically_ we're supposed to only use an 1-1/4" p-trap on the lav when using it to wet vent a shower yet I've only ever been called on it once. (And that guy was a boob!)


----------



## fhrace

This is how we do bathrooms here as long as we are within the maximum allowed distances.

Circuit vent








Horizontal wet vent


----------



## gusty60

We call a side inlet tee used for a toilet and a tub a Wisconsin here in Arizona. Right hand or left hand Wisconsin. Don't know why, but everyone calls them that. Maybe its because it's about toilets:laughing:


----------



## fhrace

To bad those fittings aren't allowed here in Wisconsin! Your toilet has nachos in it!


----------



## Ron

Example Wet Vent

Toilet or Shower Setups


----------



## fhrace

Ron here we call those "other types of wet vents" or an "otwv" the upper fixture must be one dfu or less and the vent only needs to be 1 1/2" here on both


----------



## Ron

Here a wet vent can't be no less then 2"


----------



## fhrace

Sorry I meant the vent would be 1 1/2"


----------



## Ron

fhrace said:


> Sorry I meant the vent would be 1 1/2"


Toilet vent is min 2" here.


----------



## fhrace

Yea I forgot I remember someone here saying that also. We can put up to two toilets on 1 1/2"


----------



## ILPlumber

Protech said:


> It can if it's 2".


Not in IL. The vent opening is below the trap weir.

Seems like you and I have discussed this before


----------



## BCT

pauliplumber said:


> Well atleast I know what a "wisconsin" fitting is now, it's an estabrook:thumbup:


Don't worry, it's an estabrook and they're wrong:laughing:



ILPlumber said:


> I call them combo or long sweep tee.


Around here we would call that a combo and we can't use it for a lav because the arm would be above the vent opening.



fhrace said:


> Hold on a second where the heck did the wisconsin reference derive from?
> 
> Yes it is a triple


Nice bike, my brother has a Daytona 675. I have a '99 Ducati 748 and a '05 Ducati 749



Ron said:


> Example Wet Vent
> 
> Toilet or Shower Setups


Those would both be stack vents here



Ron said:


> Toilet vent is min 2" here.


In MA all vents are sized to be half the size of the drain so if you pipe the toilet in 3" you can get away with a 1 1/2" vent. Unless it's wet vented, then you have to bump it up to 2"


----------



## jeffreyplumber

Never heard of a toilet with a 1 1/2 vent except when some dummy accidently reduced it. Found a few that way when I did tract homes. And then we discussed weather it needed to be changed. I guess thats a total waste of time. 2 inch minimum here Who knows why?


----------



## fhrace

Here in Wisconsin the vent sizing is based upon dfu load on the pipe. Not drain size


----------



## user2090

:laughing:


----------



## wolfman463

guess what it is not illegal. very stupid but not illegal. even on commercial it is stupid. when you can do it always use tubular.


----------



## 3Peasdrain

all of you talk to mich sh?{ all you need is a 1 1/4 x 1 1/2 fernco at the strainer and then another 1 1/2 fernco at the wall and that takes care of any problem with a glue trap and you guys call yourselves plumbers??? what a joke. You all should go back and redo your apprenticeship!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## njoy plumbing

Bill said:


> I see from time to time where some plumber has hard piped a trap under the kitchen sink. I never done this. I cant remember the code on it, but I prefer to have a slip nut trap so that it can be taken apart if need be.
> 
> I saw Canadian Mike Holms allows his plumbers to do this and he is supposed to be the "Do It Right" guru!


 He's an idiot.:whistling2:


----------



## RealLivePlumber

3Peasdrain said:


> all of you talk to mich sh?{ all you need is a 1 1/4 x 1 1/2 fernco at the strainer and then another 1 1/2 fernco at the wall and that takes care of any problem with a glue trap and you guys call yourselves plumbers??? what a joke. You all should go back and redo your apprenticeship!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 :laughing::laughing::laughing:


Don't you mean "unapproved fernco"

Ok, Mr. Draincleaner, carry on.


----------



## njoy plumbing

wolfman463 said:


> guess what it is not illegal. very stupid but not illegal. even on commercial it is stupid. when you can do it always use tubular.


 :laughing:


----------



## Tommy plumber

3piece drain is absolutely right. I AM a joke. I have just informed the Construction Industry Licensing Board (CILB)of the Dept. of Business and Professional Regulation of the state of Florida, that I want them to revoke my master plumber's license. And starting tomorrow, I will re-enroll in Local 630's 1st year apprenticeship school. When they get to the part on ferncos, I'll make sure I pay close attention!! :thumbsup:


----------



## PlungerJockey

I use tubular and I'm not ashamed. From crackpads to 2 million dollar homes. I'll slap them in and check for leaks and get paid. A 1.5 inch tubular trap cost me about 86 cents. A pile of pvc fittings cost a little more. Most of the homes in my area do not have cleanouts for the kitchen sink or lavs. If a house has a 12/12 pitch roof and no cleanout I can go yank the tubular trap apart and cable the line without having break out the sawzall. I don't like ferncos I'll save those for the handymen. I saw a article in this old house magazine that said the future of plumbing kitchen and lav sinks is with fernco traps, no thanks


----------



## gear junkie

One good thing about pvc tubular drain is that it's easy to see if the stoppage is in the tubular pipe. Just shine a flashlight from the backside and you can see through it.


----------



## TheMaster

PlungerJockey said:


> I use tubular and I'm not ashamed. From crackpads to 2 million dollar homes. I'll slap them in and check for leaks and get paid. A 1.5 inch tubular trap cost me about 86 cents. A pile of pvc fittings cost a little more. Most of the homes in my area do not have cleanouts for the kitchen sink or lavs. If a house has a 12/12 pitch roof and no cleanout I can go yank the tubular trap apart and cable the line without having break out the sawzall. I don't like ferncos I'll save those for the handymen. I saw a article in this old house magazine that said the future of plumbing kitchen and lav sinks is with fernco traps, no thanks


Minimum size trap for a K-sink is 2" here so a tubular trap is not an option on a new house. What size traps do you guys use in new homes for K-sinks?


----------



## Ron

Waste is 2" here, trap arm is 1-1/2"


----------



## Plumbworker

Ron said:


> Waste is 2" here, trap arm is 1-1/2"


 same here


----------



## PlungerJockey

Here its 2 inch waste and 1.5. However if its a crawlspace with no disposal you can technically run a 1.5 inch waste line. I don't know anyone that does. I generally come out of the wall with a wye and have a 1.5 tubular trap going to each side of the sink.


----------



## Ron

TheMaster said:


> Minimum size trap for a K-sink is 2" here so a tubular trap is not an option on a new house. What size traps do you guys use in new homes for K-sinks?


What code do you use TM?

Is it the Alabama State Building Code 2006 IPC?


----------



## TheMaster

Ron said:


> What code do you use TM?
> 
> Is it the Alabama State Building Code 2006 IPC?


The city ammended it.....2" minimum trap for K-sinks on new homes anyway you slice it.


----------



## Ron

TheMaster said:


> The city ammended it.....2" minimum trap for K-sinks on new homes anyway you slice it.


It used to be the local authority here could make you install stuff just cause they said so, that all has changed, here the code is the code, as long as the installed plumbing meets the min requirements thats all that is required.


----------



## Bill

Not sure here, but I use 2" on K sink and 1-1/2 on B sink all the time


----------



## TheMaster

In the typical house everything gets 2" traps except for lav's and they get 1.5"


----------



## PlungerJockey

I'm not saying its right or wrong, or trying to start a debate. I was always taught that over sizing a trap was a bad thing. For instance, a sink that has a 1.5 tail piece and a 1.5 tail piece coming off the disposal cannot effectively scour the walls of a 2 inch trap. If you drained both sides of the sink at the same time you may get enough volume to clean the walls of the trap, but we all know that is rarely the case.

Whenever I go to a kitchen sink stoppage that is the result of years of use and build up I never have a stoppage at the 1.5 traps. The problem is always in the 2 waste line. I beileve it is because the water flowing thru the small traps does not have the volume to scour the walls of the 2 inch waste line.

I see the same thing with lav sink drains, I see fewer stoppage in the older homes that have 1.25 inch traps. Same theory 1.25 inch tail piece draining into a 1.25 inch trap allows the trap walls to be cleaned.

I cannot offer a theory on 2 inch traps under kitchen sinks, because no one does that here. I have seen 1.5 inch copper pipes with female adapters on commercial 3 bays sinks draining into a 2 inch traps. I generally have a blockage at the trap. I'll be the first to admit this is a diffrent matter, generally the result of to much coleslaw being washed down.

Do you see much build up or stoppages in the 2 inch traps?


----------



## TheMaster

PlungerJockey said:


> I'm not saying its right or wrong, or trying to start a debate. I was always taught that over sizing a trap was a bad thing. For instance, a sink that has a 1.5 tail piece and a 1.5 tail piece coming off the disposal cannot effectively scour the walls of a 2 inch trap. If you drained both sides of the sink at the same time you may get enough volume to clean the walls of the trap, but we all know that is rarely the case.
> 
> Whenever I go to a kitchen sink stoppage that is the result of years of use and build up I never have a stoppage at the 1.5 traps. The problem is always in the 2 waste line. I beileve it is because the water flowing thru the small traps does not have the volume to scour the walls of the 2 inch waste line.
> 
> I see the same thing with lav sink drains, I see fewer stoppage in the older homes that have 1.25 inch traps. Same theory 1.25 inch tail piece draining into a 1.25 inch trap allows the trap walls to be cleaned.
> 
> I cannot offer a theory on 2 inch traps under kitchen sinks, because no one does that here. I have seen 1.5 inch copper pipes with female adapters on commercial 3 bays sinks draining into a 2 inch traps. I generally have a blockage at the trap. I'll be the first to admit this is a diffrent matter, generally the result of to much coleslaw being washed down.
> 
> Do you see much build up or stoppages in the 2 inch traps?


No trouble with the 2" traps.


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## SewerRatz

This is in the Illinois plumbing code.

Trap Size. The size of trap for a fixture shall comply with Appendix A: Table E for minimum size of traps. No trap shall be larger than the fixture drain to which it is connected or the drainage pipe into which it discharges. 

I see this part of the code violated many times as with lav sinks with a 1 1/4 tailpiece draining into a 1 1/2 trap. Also seen many 1 1/2 tub drains draining into a 2" P-trap.


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## Ron

There is only one reason I will have a 2" trap to my KS, thats if the distance from trap arm to the vent exceeds the distance required for a 1-1/2" trap arm, then the trap arm and trap must be 2".


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## TheMaster

Most kitchens are modern here and have disposals and dishwashers......with a double bowl stainless sink...thats typical. If its not one there when the structure is built it ...somone is likely to add them in the future. We use 2" traps minimum for k-sinks for that reason. It drains better and it doesn't clog from the disposal very easily. 

To sewer rat: How many 1.5 traps have you found that was causing a problem with the drainaige of a lavatory and a 1.25 trap solved the problem? Next time you see the inspector ask him that question for me:laughing: It may be code but they will never justify it with showing facts.


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## SewerRatz

TheMaster said:


> Most kitchens are modern here and have disposals and dishwashers......with a double bowl stainless sink...thats typical. If its not one there when the structure is built it ...somone is likely to add them in the future. We use 2" traps minimum for k-sinks for that reason. It drains better and it doesn't clog from the disposal very easily.
> 
> To sewer rat: How many 1.5 traps have you found that was causing a problem with the drainaige of a lavatory and a 1.25 trap solved the problem? Next time you see the inspector ask him that question for me:laughing: It may be code but they will never justify it with showing facts.


Every 1 ½" trap I see on a lav sink I change it to an 1 ¼" trap after I am done cleaning the drain. I just know if I am going to carry a plumbing license I am going to follow my state and local plumbing codes. Otherwise I may as well not renew it and just call myself a handyman.


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## TheMaster

SewerRatz said:


> This is in the Illinois plumbing code.
> 
> Trap Size. The size of trap for a fixture shall comply with Appendix A: Table E for minimum size of traps. No trap shall be larger than the fixture drain to which it is connected or the drainage pipe into which it discharges.
> 
> I see this part of the code violated many times as with lav sinks with a 1 1/4 tailpiece draining into a 1 1/2 trap. Also seen many 1 1/2 tub drains draining into a 2" P-trap.





SewerRatz said:


> Every 1 ½" trap I see on a lav sink I change it to an 1 ¼" trap after I am done cleaning the drain. I just know if I am going to carry a plumbing license I am going to follow my state and local plumbing codes. Otherwise I may as well not renew it and just call myself a handyman.


 Thats fine...but still ask him the theory behind why.....see if anyone can come up with a logical reason as to why a 1.5 trap is bad news on a lavatory with a 1.5" fixture arm:laughing:


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## PlungerJockey

I see the same thing with lav sink drains, I see fewer stoppage in the older homes that have 1.25 inch traps. Same theory 1.25 inch tail piece draining into a 1.25 inch trap allows the trap walls to be cleaned.

I explained it here. If the trap is oversized there is not enough water volume to scour the walls of the trap.


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## TheMaster

PlungerJockey said:


> I see the same thing with lav sink drains, I see fewer stoppage in the older homes that have 1.25 inch traps. Same theory 1.25 inch tail piece draining into a 1.25 inch trap allows the trap walls to be cleaned.
> 
> I explained it here. If the trap is oversized there is not enough water volume to scour the walls of the trap.


Your area must be special.....I've only had to clean a few traps out and 100% of the time it was because of somthing the owner put down the drain that they shouldn't have. never haveI cleaned one because of general build up from it not cleaning itself. Thats in over 25 years of service so your gonna hafta come up with somthing better than that to satisfy me. My personal home has 4 lavatories all with 1.5' traps.....for 10 years so far.....they drain like they did when it was installed. My parents house has them also....that house is roughly 20 years old and I plumbed it:thumbsup: Only thing thats been done is delta repair kits and toilet parts in that home. Everyones still alive too:laughing:

How do you justify a 3" trap on a commerical floor drain with a few indirect wastes dumping into it????? Is that trap being washed clean?:laughing::whistling2:


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## SewerRatz

TheMaster said:


> Thats fine...but still ask him the theory behind why.....see if anyone can come up with a logical reason as to why a 1.5 trap is bad news on a lavatory with a 1.5" fixture arm:laughing:


I had a 1960's code book that told you what the code is, and it gave the reasoning why the code was written that way. Once I find it I will look it up and post what it says here. I wish the new code books did what this old code book does.


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## PlungerJockey

I never said a 1.5 innch was bad news. I was merely stated what the code said and what I was taught. I do see more build up on 1.5 inch traps as opposed to 1.25 inch traps on lav sinks. Why is that? Do homeowners harbor some sort of grudge towards their 1.5 traps on lav sinks or is it some thing that only the plumbing gods know? Common sense tells me there is not enough water to scour the trap wall.


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## TheMaster

PlungerJockey said:


> I never said a 1.5 innch was bad news. I was merely stated what the code said and what I was taught. I do see more build up on 1.5 inch traps as opposed to 1.25 inch traps on lav sinks. Why is that? Do homeowners harbor some sort of grudge towards their 1.5 traps on lav sinks or is it some thing that only the plumbing gods know? Common sense tells me there is not enough water to scour the trap wall.


I never said what you said:laughing: Use your common sense and ask yourself why my 10 year old traps flow great and why my parents 20 year+ year old 1.5 traps flow great and why our code allows a 1.25 or a 1.5 trap on a lavatory.

When you get a chance come up with an answer about how a few indirect condensate drains clean a 2 or 3" trap...thats commonly installed in commercial applications.


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## PlungerJockey

What area do you work in?


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## TheMaster

PlungerJockey said:


> What area do you work in?


Thats not really important.

Now...what about bathtub with a shower or without a shower???? They have 1.5 waste connections...How about jetted tubs? 1.5 traps or 2"? All of the above have 1.5" drains typically.


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## pauliplumber

In my experience, atleast 9 out of 10 times a drain is not plugged at the trap. How many plugged traps do you guys run into? 

If an inspector fails a job because a trap is slightly bigger than a tailpeice, that's just lame IMO. I understand inspectors don't write the code book, they are supposed to enforce the rules. However good inspectors (and good plumbers for that matter) know when it's appropriate to bend them a little.


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## TheMaster

Why does a shower require a 2" trap when the showerhead is limited to 2.5 gpm....will it clean a 2" trap with only .5gpm more flow than the typical lavatory with a 1.25 trap?

:laughing:


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## mialle30

Superplumber said:


> Hard piping makes no sense to me. WTF ya gonna do when Momma drops here wedding ring in there.


First things first, let her know she is a retard.:laughing: Then charge to cut and rebuild. Hard piping makes no sense to me either, especially when a customer throws a bunch of pasta or rice down the disposal. If you're lucky they through some tuna on top of that and call you out after it has been stewing in there for a few days. I've seen hard piping with no clean out inside or out....WTF?


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## pauliplumber

Apparently you guys that are against hard piping traps have never seen a union trap. Unscrew two nuts (trap adapter nut and union nut) and it easily comes apart to snake or clean.


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## robman1961

In this ares all new construction is 1 1/2 inch traps for [email protected], 2 inch trap for whirlpool tub.I hard pipe traps if they are roughed in too high .


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## njoy plumbing

PlungerJockey said:


> I never said a 1.5 innch was bad news. I was merely stated what the code said and what I was taught. I do see more build up on 1.5 inch traps as opposed to 1.25 inch traps on lav sinks. Why is that? Do homeowners harbor some sort of grudge towards their 1.5 traps on lav sinks or is it some thing that only the plumbing gods know? Common sense tells me there is not enough water to scour the trap wall.


 Maybe its just me but, I don't think traps weren't designed to worry about scouring/cleaning as the waste water went thru them. It is inevitable for hair, soap, & scum of any kind to start building up. Thats why we have jobs and Craigs list exist. Just sayin'


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## jeffreyplumber

I think a 1 1/2 trap on a lav is legal in ca. I can say I have installed one a very few times. I would guess less than 1 percent have 1 1/4 traps. Out of the thousands of lavs by me and the companys Ive worked for, I am unaware of 
a problem caused by such a gross oversizing. There is mention in the code about avoiding too big a trap or waste line not scouring. I havent paid any attention to it as far as lav traps is concerned. I guess Im an outlaw!


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## 1plumb4uall

*lavatory traps 11/2" VS 11/4"*



jeffreyplumber said:


> I think a 1 1/2 trap on a lav is legal in ca. I can say I have installed one a very few times. I would guess less than 1 percent have 1 1/4 traps. Out of the thousands of lavs by me and the companys Ive worked for, I am unaware of
> a problem caused by such a gross oversizing. There is mention in the code about avoiding too big a trap or waste line not scouring. I havent paid any attention to it as far as lav traps is concerned. I guess Im an outlaw!


Ok I would have to say most trap arms are 11/2" at least in the last 20 yrs. 
even with a 11/4" trap there goes the "scouring effect".
And the pop-up assembly catches most of the hair just clean it now and then.
If I go with a 11/4" trap on a lavatory it is becuse it is a commercial job exposed trap and chrome. (becuse they are cheaper).:laughing:


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## jeffreyplumber

I would say if its convienient to use 1 1/4 than fine, but I dought it makes much differance, Somebody was saying it illegal to have a 1 1/2 trap on a lav , If thats the case its also probebly requires that the trap arm be the same size as the trap meaning you should open the wall up and change the san tee to 1 1/4 as well. I guess if someone feels everything to be by the book than thats how to do it


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## pauliplumber

If you feel everything has to be by the book, you are probably going to struggle with residential service.


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## justin

Bill said:


> I see from time to time where some plumber has hard piped a trap under the kitchen sink. I never done this. I cant remember the code on it, but I prefer to have a slip nut trap so that it can be taken apart if need be.
> 
> I saw Canadian Mike Holms allows his plumbers to do this and he is supposed to be the "Do It Right" guru!


i never thought of that as he is supposed to do it right the first time. but that makes no sense to me either.


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## justin

pauliplumber said:


> Apparently you guys that are against hard piping traps have never seen a union trap. Unscrew two nuts (trap adapter nut and union nut) and it easily comes apart to snake or clean.


dont take offense , but he is talking about a solvent weld trap.


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## tungsten plumb

2007 California Plumbing code section 1003.3 states " The trap shall be the same size as the trap arm to which it is connected. "


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## Ron

tungsten plumb said:


> 2007 California Plumbing code section 1003.3 states " The trap shall be the same size as the trap arm to which it is connected. "



Single Lavs, Drinking Fountains or Water Coolers (per head), and Dental Units, Cusiptor can be 1-1/4" as per UPC table 7-3


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## tungsten plumb

Ron said:


> Single Lavs, Drinking Fountains or Water Coolers (per head), and Dental Units, Cusiptor can be 1-1/4" as per UPC table 7-3


Yeah I saw that. They kinda contradict themselves. When I install traps on lavs and such that have 1.25" tailpieces I use 1.25" x1.5" trap adapters and use 1.5" traps.


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## Ron

tungsten plumb said:


> Yeah I saw that. They kinda contradict themselves. When I install traps on lavs and such that have 1.25" tailpieces I use 1.25" x1.5" trap adapters and use 1.5" traps.


I prefer 1-1/2" traps myself, only real time I use 1-1/4" is if existing trap arm is 1-1/4" out the wall, that is seen on old homes, but not often.


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## tungsten plumb

Ron said:


> I prefer 1-1/2" traps myself, only real time I use 1-1/4" is if existing trap arm is 1-1/4" out the wall, that is seen on old homes, but not often.


I can't bring myself to use 1.25" traps. Especially on a lav. Its way more likely to get plugged with hair in my opinion.


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## Tommy plumber

fhrace said:


> This is how we do bathrooms here as long as we are within the maximum allowed distances.
> 
> Circuit vent
> View attachment 4979
> 
> 
> Horizontal wet vent
> View attachment 4980


 


The sketch you call 'circuit vent' is not permitted by my code. Reason: when W/C flushes it is cutting off vent to tub and shw. It in theory can also siphon tub p-trap.


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## Optimus Primer

Tommy plumber said:


> The sketch you call 'circuit vent' is not permitted by my code. Reason: when W/C flushes it is cutting off vent to tub and shw. It in theory can also siphon tub p-trap.


 
That's legal up here in my neck of the woods. Your point of vent is between the 2 fixtures. Do you follow 2007 florida code? We can do it just like this as long as the vent is at the end of the run like this.


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## Tommy plumber

house plumber said:


> That's legal up here in my neck of the woods. Your point of vent is between the 2 fixtures. Do you follow 2007 florida code? We can do it just like this as long as the vent is at the end of the run like this.
> 
> View attachment 6806
> 
> 
> View attachment 6807


 
Yes we use the 2007 Fla. code. Much has changed since I first started plumbing in the early 90's, and I tend to fall back on what I know. I was taught not to wash a major fix. past a minor, ie: in a 2" vert. waste stack, I won't stack a large-discharging fixture on top of a smaller one. You install the san. tee for the smaller fixture on top. I don't know if that changed or not. When fixtures are horiz. you can have toilet upstream draining past smaller fixtures as long as there is another vent downstream to protect trap seals of smaller fixtures. Something else, when I started plumbing, the maximum distance for a w/c to point of vent was 5'. Now I think it's 10'.


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## Optimus Primer

Tommy plumber said:


> Yes we use the 2007 Fla. code. Much has changed since I first started plumbing in the early 90's, and I tend to fall back on what I know. I was taught not to wash a major fix. past a minor, ie: in a 2" vert. waste stack, I won't stack a large-discharging fixture on top of a smaller one. You install the san. tee for the smaller fixture on top. I don't know if that changed or not. When fixtures are horiz. you can have toilet upstream draining past smaller fixtures as long as there is another vent downstream to protect trap seals of smaller fixtures. Something else, when I started plumbing, the maximum distance for a w/c to point of vent was 5'. Now I think it's 10'.


 
There is no more major or minor from what I hear. From what I understand you can put a larger san tee on top of a smaller tee. Dont know if I would do it that way. thats how I learned it to from the early 90's, smaller tee on top. And there is no distance from the point of vent on a water closet anymore.


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## Tommy plumber

house plumber said:


> There is no more major or minor from what I hear. From what I understand you can put a larger san tee on top of a smaller tee. Dont know if I would do it that way. thats how I learned it to from the early 90's, smaller tee on top. And there is no distance from the point of vent on a water closet anymore.


 
I appreciate the info. From what I'm told, the minimum DWV below slab allowed is now 1 1/4". It as you know used to be 2". Cuz I almost never do new const. anymore, I'm out of the loop with changes. Every code cycle stuff changes and FL doesn't send us updates unless you buy revisions and just read the new code books. Last time I was given a set of prints to do the ground-rough, 2nd rough etc. was like 4 yrs. ago. I'd love to do new const. but economy is slow. I don't have a GC to feed me work. I do mostly service work with some backflows thrown in.


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## Optimus Primer

Tommy plumber said:


> I appreciate the info. From what I'm told, the minimum DWV below slab allowed is now 1 1/4". It as you know used to be 2". Cuz I almost never do new const. anymore, I'm out of the loop with changes. Every code cycle stuff changes and FL doesn't send us updates unless you buy revisions and just read the new code books. Last time I was given a set of prints to do the ground-rough, 2nd rough etc. was like 4 yrs. ago. I'd love to do new const. but economy is slow. I don't have a GC to feed me work. I do mostly service work with some backflows thrown in.


I need to look into that. I never heard you can have 1.25" under slab


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## Redwood

Tommy plumber said:


> From what I'm told, the minimum DWV below slab allowed is now 1 1/4". It as you know used to be 2".




Redwood shakes his head in disbelief then realizes its Florida land where they make the Studor Vent and anything is possible...


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## Optimus Primer

Redwood said:


> Redwood shakes his head in disbelief then realizes its Florida land where they make the Studor Vent and anything is possible...


WOAH WOAH WOAH!! Don't start bashing all on Florida yet, I need to find where he said that. As for studors, sometimes it's necessary. Like island kitchens.


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## RealLivePlumber

We can't do studors. 

I have never had a situation where I could not do an island, or whatever, according to our code. (National Standard).


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## Redwood

house plumber said:


> As for studors, sometimes it's necessary. Like island kitchens.


Is there something bad about a loop vent?:whistling2:

I know it's harder than screwing in a Studor... :laughing:


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## Optimus Primer

Redwood said:


> Is there something bad about a loop vent?:whistling2:
> 
> I know it's harder than screwing in a Studor... :laughing:


Yeah Not approved. :whistling2:


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## Redwood

house plumber said:


> Yeah Not approved. :whistling2:


Studor paid them off ehhh:laughing:

We've got some politicians like that too...
http://www.courant.com/community/br...-ganim-released-0720-20100719,0,7167323.story


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## Optimus Primer

*913.3 Vent installation below the fixture flood level rim.* The vent located below the flood level rim of the fixture being vented shall be installed as required for drainage piping in accordance with Chapter 7, except for sizing. The vent shall be sized in accordance with Section 916.2. The lowest point of the island fixture vent shall connect full size to the drainage system. The connection shall be to a vertical drain pipe or to the top half of a horizontal drain pipe. Cleanouts shall be provided in the island fixture vent to permit rodding of all vent piping located below the flood level rim of the fixtures. Rodding in both directions shall be permitted through a cleanout.


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## Tommy plumber

house plumber said:


> I need to look into that. I never heard you can have 1.25" under slab


 
921.4.1 " ...but in no case shall the line be less than 2-inch soil pipe when piping is underground." -Standard plumbing code 1994.

Table 710.1(1) Building Drains And Sewers In table minimum size for a drain line is stated as 1 1/4 inch. -2007 code


Back in '94 when we started in the trade, min. DWV was 2 inch under slab. From what I'm told by other plumbers in my area and from how I interpret 2007 code, it appears as though 1 1/4 inch is min. for a drain line under slab. I'm just saying... In 2007 FL. code, 710.3 has been omitted. If you look in 2001 code book 710.3 states, "underground piping shall not be less than 2 inches."


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## Optimus Primer

Tommy plumber said:


> 921.4.1 " ...but in no case shall the line be less than 2-inch soil pipe when piping is underground." Standard plumbing code 1994.
> 
> Table 710.1(1) Building Drains And Sewers In table minimum size for a drain line is stated as 1 1/4 inch.
> 
> 
> Back in '94 when we started in the trade, min. DWV was 2 inch under slab. From what I'm told by other plumbers in my area and from how I interpret 2007 code, it appears as though 1 1/4 inch is min. for a drain line under slab. I'm just saying... In 2007 FL. code, 710.3 has been omitted. If you look in 2001 code book 710.3 states, "underground piping shall not be less than 2 inches."


 
I think they are talking about waste arms on that one. You just cant have 1 1/4 under slab. Just seems impoosible. Here is the statement of the chart. What do you other Florida plumbers think. Yeah now that I reread it another 20 times. they are talking about waste arms. ! 1/4 you can have only 1 DFU. Note it says connected to any portion of the building drain or building sewer. A waste arm is connected to a building drain.

*MAXIMUM NUMBER OF DRAINAGE FIXTURE UNITS CONNECTED TO ANY PORTION OF THE BUILDING DRAIN OR THE BUILDING SEWER, INCLUDING BRANCHES OF THE BUILDING DRAINa*


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## 130 PLUMBER

Back to the subject about hard piping traps for a ks.

Per plumbing code book of the state of illinois plumbing fixtures

section 890.630
Clean.plumbing fixtures shall be installed in a manner to afford easy access for cleaning....


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## pauliplumber

130 PLUMBER said:


> Back to the subject about hard piping traps for a ks.
> 
> Per plumbing code book of the state of illinois plumbing fixtures
> 
> section 890.630
> Clean.plumbing fixtures shall be installed in a manner to afford easy access for cleaning....


Which means you should hard pipe it with a union trap:laughing:.


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