# What is grosser to you?



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

This is a followup poll to a discussion I am having with TheMaster in the "Master Bath Remodel" http://www.plumbingzone.com/f21/master-bath-remodel-7566/ . I am trying to differentiate between the threat of a cross contamination caused by an under-slab leak laying in the dirt and a shower wand laying in a stopped up drain.

Mark


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Whats more likely to happen? A leak under the slab and then the water supply being turned off and drawing a negative pressure sucking all that contaminated water in from under the slab where its been leaking for a month or two. Drain leaks under the slab is common and so are leaks on the water system. The dirt here is treated with a massive amount of termite poison. OR the handheld being left in the bottom of a shower,the drain clogging up,the seperate diverter valve for the shower stall only being left in the handheld position and the main water control valve being left on(while the drain is clogged) and then the water being turned off and the negative pressure sucks the water throught the head??? Come on


----------



## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Well, since I am not a huge believer in anti-siphon components (minus the ball cock valve) I don't think people really get hurt by it and it's some real bad luck to get poisoned by the above montioned methods. If that were the case, chances are they have real bad luck in life anyways....what's a little poopie water into the mix?


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Your poll does not fairly represent the issue or my exact scenario.


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

I'm not sure one is more likely than the other to happen which is why neither requires critical protections. The chances for the underslab leak is always going to be there as long as people continue to put water lines under the slab. Which by the way our policy was to NEVER install under slab water lines although I remember 3-project where we did but we did it kicking all the way. Still most people know when they have an underslab pipe and get then fixed. Using the word most of course means some do not.

As for the hand shower, the most likely hazard will be when a homeowner is trying to figure out why sewage is coming up his downstairs shower drain during a mainline stoppage and he is using is hand held shower to try to control it. He finally realizes his kids are still upstairs flushing toilets and taking baths so he runs out front and turns off the water and opens his front bibb. 

Mark


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Your poll does not fairly represent the issue or my exact scenario.


We may be talking apples and oranges then. It sounds like you are talking likelihood and I am talking risk. I think I can argue sewage is always potentially dangerous while dirty water is rarely dangerous. As for the likelihood of one scenario happening over the other I think we would both have to guess at which is more likely.

Mark


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> I'm not sure one is more likely than the other to happen which is why neither requires critical protections. The chances for the underslab leak is always going to be there as long as people continue to put water lines under the slab. Which by the way our policy was to NEVER install under slab water lines although I remember 3-project where we did but we did it kicking all the way. Still most people know when they have an underslab pipe and get then fixed. Using the word most of course means some do not.
> 
> As for the hand shower, the most likely hazard will be when a homeowner is trying to figure out why sewage is coming up his downstairs shower drain during a mainline stoppage and he is using is hand held shower to try to control it. He finally realizes his kids are still upstairs flushing toilets and taking baths so he runs out front and turns off the water and opens his front bibb.
> 
> Mark


 Why and how would a handheld shower be used to stop sewage from coming up in their shower? Ok if his shower is overflowing why would he leave the faucet ON and run out to the main and turn it off there? More likely scenario.....he has a leak under the slab and doesn't know it yet because he hasn't got his water bill and he cant hear anything leaking. people callme all the time that have had high water bills for a few months and cant figure out why.....well it turns out they have a leak under the slab and they a damn near deaf and dont hear it.


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

It's okay if we don't agree on this. I have been to homes where they shut the water off because of a slab leak which could cause a contamination. I've also been in a home with a stopped up fixture that has a handheld wand or shower laying in the fixture. If you ask me to quantify the possibilities of one over the other I could not.

Mark


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Heres how I see your scenario happening. lady showering while sitting on a bench holding the handheld,the drain is clogged and she needs to call a drain cleaner but hasn't and its holding a few inchs of water...thats why shes sitting up on the bench of the shower to keep her prettty toes out of the nasty water......during her relaxing shower all of a sudden the water cuts off.....OH NO she thinks my dumbass boyfriend forgot to pay the water bill and throws the handheld down and goes to investigate why the waters off. Well come to find out the neighbor hired a hack to install a few faucets and he backed over the fire hydrant out front. the lady goes back to her shower to check to see if she has water ...but she doesn;t but she smiles when she sees her shower drain is working again and all the water is gone. She gets dressed and leaves for work and the city comes out to repair the broken fire main and restores water.......she comes home to find her house flooded.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> It's okay if we don't agree on this. I have been to homes where they shut the water off because of a slab leak which could cause a contamination. I've also been in a home with a stopped up fixture that has a handheld wand or shower laying in the fixture. If you ask me to quantify the possibilities of one over the other I could not.
> 
> Mark


 The one you found with the handheld in the shower....was the faucet still in the on position? remember the main control must be left on for the possibility to happen.


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> The one you found with the handheld in the shower....was the faucet still in the on position? remember the main control must be left on for the possibility to happen.


No, but I am not sure the fact that the sewage is limited to the next spray of the hose changes much.

After this extended discussion you have convinced me to move up to my place in Utah where I have 100% control of my water source.

By the way, as much as I love my wife her first solution to a main line stoppage is a high pressure (185 PSI) nozzle down our front bath front water closet. 

Mark


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Here is a better way to see how it can happen the way ToUtahNow has it happening, Nice hot day outside, kids playing in the water with a hose, someone is in the tub washing hair with the wand, a plumber shows up to fix a leak on water line at neighbors house, six meters lined up side by side, plumber shuts the wrong meter off unknowingly, the one in the tub thinks nothing about, but sets the wand into the tub of water to investigate, with the hose on outside, since the hose that was on is lower then the wand level it creates negative pressure, this creating a cross contamination by sucking water from the tub back into the potable water..

Does that sound more like a possibility.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron said:


> Here is a better way to see how it can happen the way ToUtahNow has it happening, Nice hot day outside, kids playing in the water with a hose, someone is in the tub washing hair with the wand, a plumber shows up to fix a leak on water line at neighbors house, six meters lined up side by side, plumber shuts the wrong meter off unknowingly, the one in the tub thinks nothing about, but sets the wand into the tub of water to investigate, with the hose on outside, since the hose that was on is lower then the wand level it creates negative pressure, this creating a cross contamination by sucking water from the tub back into the potable water..
> 
> Does that sound more like a possibility.


 It does if we where talking about a tub but we are speaking of a shower stall with no stopper.


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

You can create a situation close to what I tried to do. Wrong meter got turned off but yet the sewer is backing up into the shower, one is in shower don't care if the wand gets back up on the hook, gets out fast leaving wand in shower pan.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron said:


> You can create a situation close to what I tried to do. Wrong meter got turned off but yet the sewer is backing up into the shower, one is in shower don't care if the wand gets back up on the hook, gets out fast leaving wand in shower pan.


 I agree thats exactly what could happen but somthing else was required to malfunction,like the sewer backing up and then all of those events happening at the same time. Now if you had a leaking main shower valve and dropped the wand into a bucket tou could get you some backflow if a negative happened.


----------



## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Backflow will always be an " all the stars need to align" type deal.

Is a lav w/ a grid strainer really any different than a shower?

Mr. Master, do you really need an airgap on the above lav?


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Your poll does not fairly represent the issue or my exact scenario.


I'd like to get in on this. Remember a few years back ... Philadelphia,
"Legionairs Diease" When a lot of the members died while attending a convention. When it hit the papers as to an unknown cause, yours truly thought damn a cross connection. At the time I had a customer Dr. Gary Latimer. The doctor was a infectious diease specialist. I called him on a Sunday Morning his wife answered I said "this is Bill Parr is the doctor in?" She replied he is very busy with this Legionairs thing what do you want.
I said I might have a probable cause for the illness. He got on the phone I explained how water could be siphoned back in a plumbing system with out the proper safegards. He listened and then said, "could this happed in today's plumbing"? He asked if I could draw some type of picture and explain it in writing. I did, a 6 story building and the painter mixing a caustic solution in the 6th floor utility room. Maintainace had removed the original vacuum breaker and replaced it with a hose because it sprayed the walls everytime it was turned on. An inhouse plumber decides to shut down a riser in the basement to replace a bibb washer on a faucet. Yeh you know the story the painter is trying to figure out what happened to his bucket of solution. He turns off the spicket and leaves to get another bag at the chemical joint. The in-house plumber in a couple of minutes fixes his faucet and turns on the riser. Everthing back to normal ... Not quite that bucket of solution is in the piping system. And whoever drinks from a fountain, brushes their teeth, boils potatoes in a pot in the kitchen and so on, could injest the solution. 
The above is what I took to the doctor. He read it and said this is going with me to Atlanta tomarrow. A couple of days later they found a cross connection in the cooling towers. Whis it my drawing and description.
I don't know! But cross connections are not if they occur. 
The are when they occur. And this trade should do everthing in their power to prevent the when from happening. We have done a pretty damn good job but I can see relaxation on the horizion.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Colgar said:


> Backflow will always be an " all the stars need to align" type deal.
> 
> Is a lav w/ a grid strainer really any different than a shower?
> 
> Mr. Master, do you really need an airgap on the above lav?


But backflow does not only happen when the stars align...it happens all the time from leaks on underground piping. Nobody seems worried about that......YOU SEEM TO THINK ITS RARE BUT ITS NOT. I bet you I can give you an example where YOU did not completely protect a system and that goes for every plumber on this board and in the country.....wanna bet?
Before you answer i suggest you remember who your betting with.:laughing:


----------



## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> But backflow does not only happen when the stars align...it happens all the time from leaks on underground piping. Nobody seems worried about that......YOU SEEM TO THINK ITS RARE BUT ITS NOT. I bet you I can give you an example where YOU did not completely protect a system and that goes for every plumber on this board and in the country.....wanna bet?
> Before you answer i suggest you remember who your betting with.:laughing:


Don't put words in my mouth, master. I never said an under slab leak is not a potential cross connection. IMO, the potential IS there as soon as the pinhole starts. 

To me, that's an aligning of stars. We probably got different defintions of what that means, but that's okay. I'm not looking for an arguement here.

And no, I won't be taking that bet. I ain't perfect. I'm sure I've missed something over the years. I got no problem admitting that.

Now answer my question about the lav.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Colgar said:


> Don't put words in my mouth, master. I never said an under slab leak is not a potential cross connection. IMO, the potential IS there as soon as the pinhole starts.
> 
> To me, that's an aligning of stars. We probably got different defintions of what that means, but that's okay. I'm not looking for an arguement here.
> 
> ...


I not saying you missed somthing once....I'm saying you and everyone else on this board do not protect against every possible cross connection that a end user can make happen without removing a protection device because you dont install one where I'm talking about.. Yes a lavatory is different that a shower and yes a lavatory should have an air gap but I wouldn't freak out if it didn't...I have worked on many old lavatories that had integral spouts built into the china below the flood level rim.
ADD> If you think a leak underground means the stars have aligned then the stars stay aligned because lines are leaking all over the city and when they are shut down..and turn back on they suck ground water in the breach.


----------



## CBP (Feb 5, 2010)

This reminds of a commercial....... "If me and Buster were hanging over a cliff, and you could only save one of us....."..... sigh... I think I need a Bud Light....


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

I think I would stop short of calling an under-slab leak in a water line a "cross-connection". If you have an undiscovered under-slab leak, under certain limited conditions it can aspirate dirty water into the water line. In addition, if the source is turned off, dirty water could be siphoned into the water line. However, for it to be a "cross-connection" you would also need to have a drain or sewer line which is leaking.

Mark


----------



## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I not saying you missed somthing once....I'm saying you and everyone else on this board do not protect against every possible cross connection that a end user can make happen without removing a protection device.....


Okay- I see what you're saying. Of course we don't.



TheMaster said:


> ...because you dont install one where I'm talking about..


Are we still on under slab leaks? Install what, where?


And chime in CBP, the backflow guy. Agree or disagree, I would be interested in reading what you think on the subject. :thumbsup:


----------



## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> I think I would stop short of calling an under-slab leak in a water line a "cross-connection". If you have an undiscovered under-slab leak, under certain limited conditions it can aspirate dirty water into the water line. In addition, if the source is turned off, dirty water could be siphoned into the water line. However, for it to be a "cross-connection" you would also need to have a drain or sewer line which is leaking.
> 
> Mark


I was always under the impression a cross connection was between a potable and nonpotable source? Nonpotable doesn't have to come from a sewer, does it?


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Colgar said:


> I was always under the impression a cross connection was between a potable and nonpotable source? Nonpotable doesn't have to come from a sewer, does it?


I guess that would be true, I stand corrected.

Mark


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

UPC definition of a cross connection


----------



## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

And IL's Definition:



> "Cross Connection": Any actual or potential connection or arrangement between 2 otherwise separate piping systems, one containing potable water and the other containing fluids or gases of any kind that do not meet potable water quality standards, in which the non-potable substances in one system may flow into the potable water system or enter it through a means such as back pressure, back siphonage, or aspiration.


that's kinda in line with what you were saying, Mark.

I don't care for either definition


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

LOL-Okay fine I am back to my original opinion.

Mark


----------



## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> LOL-Okay fine I am back to my original opinion.
> 
> Mark


And you're still wrong.......:laughing::thumbsup:


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Colgar said:


> Okay- I see what you're saying. Of course we don't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you install backflow prevention devices for everything that will accept a garden hose on a potable water system? remember the stars align easily:laughing: And never once did I say its not possible for the shower to have backflow i just said theres plenty of other more likely places it will and does happen and nobody cares.


----------



## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

I said it in other threads that IMO the garden hose is the most likely place, a cross connection, with a back siphon at the same time, could occurr.
Swimming pools, green swimming pools, jacuzzi tubs, ponds, buckets of anything & everything in them, and anything else that a homeowner could stick a garden hose into. And we protect them with a $4 device that is easily removed & 60% or more that I see don't even have a vac. breaker on them.
I see so many times the $100 PVB on the lawn sprinkler feed, with an unprotected hose bibb, right next to it.


----------



## Turd Burglar (Sep 26, 2009)

Pfffttt, neither one is really all that gross. I eat that stuff for breakfast.:drink:


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I'm so annul about back-flow that I have a custom made straw with a BFP on it.


----------



## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Do you install backflow prevention devices for everything that will accept a garden hose on a potable water system? remember the stars align easily:laughing: And never once did I say its not possible for the shower to have backflow i just said theres plenty of other more likely places it will and does happen and nobody cares.


And I never said you were wrong or I didn't care.

So what, in your opinion, would be the correct way to prevent the underground leak backflow?

BTW, fun discussion!


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Colgar said:


> And I never said you were wrong or I didn't care.
> 
> So what, in your opinion, would be the correct way to prevent the underground leak backflow?
> 
> BTW, fun discussion!


 You cant control it on the providers lines but you can filter your water where the main enters the house,then sleeve all under slab piping.


----------



## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> You cant control it on the providers lines but you can filter your water where the main enters the house,then sleeve all under slab piping.


 You put underground water pipes in a sleeve, & you will never even be discussing underground leaks, cuz it wouldn't happen. Sounds so easy, but amazingly rarely done.


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Don The Plumber said:


> You put underground water pipes in a sleeve, & you will never even be discussing underground leaks, cuz it wouldn't happen. Sounds so easy, but amazingly rarely done.


I will never again sleeve copper tube. I have at least 5 failures on "K" copper within 5 years of installation. Copper is a nobel metal and will last forever when buried in good earth with no grounding of any electrical current. The condensation present in a sleeve will take out the copper. If the sleeve is not hermetically sealed lawn fertilizers could be drawn through the sleeve thereby taking out the copper. 
Read This ...
http://www.toolbase.org/PDF/CaseStudies/copper_failure.pdf


----------



## plumb4fun (Feb 18, 2009)

When I think "Gross" in plumbing I think of a plugged up grease trap or a urinal that has been sitting full plugged up for a week or more! The smells from those soak in past your lips and deep into your gums no matter how tight you close your mouth!


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> I will never again sleeve copper tube. I have at least 5 failures on "K" copper within 5 years of installation. Copper is a nobel metal and will last forever when buried in good earth with no grounding of any electrical current. The condensation present in a sleeve will take out the copper. If the sleeve is not hermetically sealed lawn fertilizers could be drawn through the sleeve thereby taking out the copper.
> Read This ...
> http://www.toolbase.org/PDF/CaseStudies/copper_failure.pdf


 How do you protect it coming through a slab? Wrap it with somthing? I've sleeved alot of copper and even in my own home with never a problem. Copper doesn't do well in some parts of the country without water treatment or aggressive soil......or mexicans using dishwashing soap to lubricate the sleeving......or people letting flux run between the sleeve and the copper.


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> How do you protect it coming through a slab? Wrap it with somthing? I've sleeved alot of copper and even in my own home with never a problem. Copper doesn't do well in some parts of the country without water treatment or aggressive soil......or mexicans using dishwashing soap to lubricate the sleeving......or people letting flux run between the sleeve and the copper.


I'm not talking sleeving where you go through a wall or coming out od a slab. I'm talking like a mechanicle room in the middle of a house or building 40-50 feet of sleeving. The thought at the time was -- in case the line ever did leak we would not have to destroy the house to replace it. We could pull a new line through.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> I'm not talking sleeving where you go through a wall or coming out od a slab. I'm talking like a mechanicle room in the middle of a house or building 40-50 feet of sleeving. The thought at the time was -- in case the line ever did leak we would not have to destroy the house to replace it. We could pull a new line through.


 Rubbatex insulation would be the same wouldn't it,if you insulated all the piping in a building and made the joints air tight like they should be?


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Rubbatex insulation would be the same wouldn't it,if you insulated all the piping in a building and made the joints air tight like they should be?


YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT. The sleeves were to allow the pulling of a new line through in nthe future. You would never pull a new line the way your thinking. The local authority LCA made the same mistake, they put in a new main through a farmers field in their right-of-way.
The houses being serviced were on the other side of the road. They bored and inserted 3" sleeves and pulled copper "K" through so as to not open the road all lines failed in the sleeve.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT. The sleeves were to allow the pulling of a new line through in nthe future. You would never pull a new line the way your thinking. The local authority LCA made the same mistake, they put in a new main through a farmers field in their right-of-way.
> The houses being serviced were on the other side of the road. They bored and inserted 3" sleeves and pulled copper "K" through so as to not open the road all lines failed in the sleeve.


My intention was not to pull a new line...I understand your was. My point is that rubbatex pipe insulation if installed properly is air tight it would do the same as your pipe sleeve right???? So why aren't copper water pipe failing that are covered in rubbatex insualtion? Same difference right?


----------



## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

Slight topic swerve but yeah I do remember that, Bill.
What I find outstanding is watching and reading the news about it at the time, and before they'd pinned down the actual source one of the possibilities was the scenario you outlined almost verbatim.
I was in high school at the time and one of our teachers spoke about this and spent some time talking and drawing on the chalkboard about how this could take place.

Geez, Mr Parr! You might be one of my earliest sources of inspiration to get into this trade. :thumbup1:



PLUMBER_BILL said:


> I'd like to get in on this. Remember a few years back ... Philadelphia,
> "Legionairs Diease" When a lot of the members died while attending a convention. When it hit the papers as to an unknown cause, yours truly thought damn a cross connection. At the time I had a customer Dr. Gary Latimer. The doctor was a infectious diease specialist. I called him on a Sunday Morning his wife answered I said "this is Bill Parr is the doctor in?" She replied he is very busy with this Legionairs thing what do you want.
> I said I might have a probable cause for the illness. He got on the phone I explained how water could be siphoned back in a plumbing system with out the proper safegards. He listened and then said, "could this happed in today's plumbing"? He asked if I could draw some type of picture and explain it in writing. I did, a 6 story building and the painter mixing a caustic solution in the 6th floor utility room. Maintainace had removed the original vacuum breaker and replaced it with a hose because it sprayed the walls everytime it was turned on. An inhouse plumber decides to shut down a riser in the basement to replace a bibb washer on a faucet. Yeh you know the story the painter is trying to figure out what happened to his bucket of solution. He turns off the spicket and leaves to get another bag at the chemical joint. The inhouse plumber in a couple of minutes fixes his faucet and turns on the riser. Everthing back to normal ... Not quite that bucket of solution is in the piping system. And whoever drinks from a fountain, brushes their teeth, boils potatoes in a pot in the kitchen and so on, could injest the solution.
> The above is what I took to the doctor. He read it and said this is going with me to Atlanta tomarrow. A couple of days later they found a cross connection in the cooling towers. Whis it my drawing and description.
> ...


----------



## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> I will never again sleeve copper tube. I have at least 5 failures on "K" copper within 5 years of installation. Copper is a nobel metal and will last forever when buried in good earth with no grounding of any electrical current. The condensation present in a sleeve will take out the copper. If the sleeve is not hermetically sealed lawn fertilizers could be drawn through the sleeve thereby taking out the copper.
> Read This ...
> http://www.toolbase.org/PDF/CaseStudies/copper_failure.pdf


 Thats amazing info & I thank you for that.
We use to just slip on solid armaflex insulation on our undergroung copper pipes, & tape the joints,{ inside the bldg, not water service pipe}, just to give it that little extra protection.
I can see how fertilizers could get into sleeve of copper, outside of house, but how could that happen inside? Not saying it can't, but not likely.
Would it affect pex tubing too, if it were sleeved?
What about electrical wiring, in underground conduits, that gets water in it too, just as easily.Seems like that water in those conduits would attack the copper wiring eventually, even though they are coated.
What was your K copper sleeved with, on your 5 failures?
If it was sleeved, were you able to pull new pipe back through sleeve, or not?


----------



## PlumbingTheCape (Mar 1, 2010)

Dirty Water? Is that some king of a joke?

My personal favourite is cleaning industrial kitchen fat/ grease traps  hmmmm


----------

