# Tankless Water Heater Install



## jrplumbing74 (Apr 19, 2009)

I was really happy how this job turned out. Feel free to pick it apart.........I gots big shoulders. Noritz NR98 DV with LP conversion kits.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Direct connect with pex not allowed here under my code.

I would have increased the T&P drain line to 1" after the 1st unit, this to send one drain line out the building.


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## jrplumbing74 (Apr 19, 2009)

I'm not sure I follow.....male adapter into valve kits not allowed?


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Here have to be 18" of metallic pipe before we connect to pex off the bottom of the valve kits.


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## jrplumbing74 (Apr 19, 2009)

Also t&p have to go out separately here....going to indirect hub drain anyway.


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## aero1 (Feb 13, 2009)

not bad but in S.C you would need a sediment trap on the gas line and a union on the nipple at the gas valve, nice neat job.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Ron said:


> Here have to be 18" of metallic pipe before we connect to pex off the bottom of the valve kits.


Silly inspectors enforcing a code for tank water heaters with draft hoods near the pipes. The pipes below the tankless is the same temp as the water.

When will they ever learn?


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

jrplumbing74 said:


> I was really happy how this job turned out. Feel free to pick it apart.........I gots big shoulders. Noritz NR98 DV with LP conversion kits.
> 
> 
> View attachment 7765


They don't appear to be linked together electronically.
So if it takes .5 GPM to get them to fire and get hot water, it will now take 1 gallon flow to get both to fire, what faucet will do that in your house?

Are they really mounted on foam board???

And yes without a drip leg on the gas pipe, the inlet screen on the gas valve may plug up some day.


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## Ishmael (Dec 9, 2009)

Do you have to bond CSST?


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Ron said:


> Direct connect with pex not allowed here under my code.


Ya, here too. We'd have to pipe away at least (I think) 18" before switching to plastic. I go much farther usually.

They make us do a loop to the top with the supply and put on a vac breaker too. I argued that one with the inspectors, but I lost. Whatever - as long as the competition has to do it too I don't care.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Is there a reason you brought two separate gas runs down instead of one? Are the water lines strapped or supported anywhere? That's a lot of plastic. 






Paul


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Condensate drain???? They give you a tap right off the flu collar, may as well use it. I see no data cable between the two units. These things will not run correctly nor will you get accurate hot water temps. You may have wanted to do a little more research before you attempted a job like this. Does a sheet of 1/2" ply really cost that much out there?


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

jrplumbing74 said:


> I was really happy how this job turned out. Feel free to pick it apart.........I gots big shoulders. Noritz NR98 DV with LP conversion kits.


I just looked close - they're piped in parallel. How do you get them to feed evenly? Won't one end up doing most of the work?


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## LEAD INGOT (Jul 15, 2009)

Why are there no tees, unions, and caps for a dripleg where the gas enters the units?


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

I was told if you have one at the meter you dont need them any where else.



aero1 said:


> not bad but in S.C you would need a sediment trap on the gas line and a union on the nipple at the gas valve, nice neat job.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

futz said:


> I just looked close - they're piped in parallel. How do you get them to feed evenly? Won't one end up doing most of the work?


Data cable takes care of that. It limits the majority of the workload to one unit, than fires the second unit.....at the most fuel efficient rate. After 800 gallons of flow or 24 hrs, this order switches. This allows for even wear and tear. There's more to it than that, but that's the basics. Dude did his install wrong and it guys like this that promise they know what they are doing to clients and bid it like how you see it, versus guys like me that actually know what the F we are doing who bid it correctly don't get the call backs.......Another genius......


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Tankless said:


> Data cable takes care of that. It limits the majority of the workload to one unit, than fires the second unit.....at the most fuel efficient rate. After 800 gallons of flow or 24 hrs, this order switches. This allows for even wear and tear. There's more to it than that, but that's the basics.


Ah. They've gotten a LOT smarter than in the old days. Microcontrollers are wonderful things. The last time I did a multi-heater tankless install was many years ago at a new car wash. Used more than a dozen (can't remember how many) of those old Bosch units. Staged them by turning each one's temperature dial just a bit higher than the last. Electronic controls? What? We don't need no steenkin electronic controls! :laughing: It was primitive, but it worked very well. That's just how they did it then.


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## LEAD INGOT (Jul 15, 2009)

house plumber said:


> I was told if you have one at the meter you dont need them any where else.


 Someone told my oldman that if he rubbed one out before intercourse, you couldn't get the girl pregnant. I'm the youngest of 6. I'm just sayin'.


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## jrplumbing74 (Apr 19, 2009)

Hey Tankless, I fully expected for you to come over here and help me do this job. I mean my god man how in the world do any of the rest of us dumbass plumbers ever figure this out??? By the way, I do have cable link installed.....I just think its funny you caught that and not the electrical whips laying on the floor not plugged in. Job in a basement mechanical room where GC put foam board everywhere.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

futz said:


> I just looked close - they're piped in parallel. How do you get them to feed evenly? Won't one end up doing most of the work?


That isn't parallel. 

If this one looks great, can you please post pics of your so-so work.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Matt said:


> That isn't parallel.


Sure it is. The pic is blurry - you have to look close. I downloaded it, loaded it in Gimp and unsharp-masked it - then expanded it to double size.



> If this one looks great, can you please post pics of your so-so work.


What do you mean by that? I never said it looked great. Just asked a question or two. :whistling2: And there are a couple pics of my "so-so" work there. :laughing:


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

futz said:


> What do you mean by that? I never said it looked great. Just asked a question or two. :whistling2: And there are a couple pics of my "so-so" work there. :laughing:


 
I'm pretty sure Matt wasn't talking to you. :whistling2:







Paul


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

futz said:


> Sure it is. The pic is blurry - you have to look close. I downloaded it, loaded it in Gimp and unsharp-masked it - then expanded it to double size.
> 
> What do you mean by that? I never said it looked great. Just asked a question or two. :whistling2: And there are a couple pics of my "so-so" work there. :laughing:


So if the inlet is piped in parallel, it's ALL parallel huh?


What's wrong with first in last out. I don't know what that is. But it is not parallel.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

jrplumbing74 said:


> I was really happy how this job turned out. Feel free to pick it apart.........I gots big shoulders. Noritz NR98 DV with LP conversion kits.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

It's not my fault you don't know what you're doing. I really could care less but you are the one who chose to post your work, then said "have at it"......The installation is not correct, what do you want from me? Want me to lie to you? You're not my Friday night hook up...why would I lie? And what are you talking about with the pig tails? The photo doesn't sho how they are terminated....I couldn't see it, so I made no point about it. And to answer your question about how you figure this stuff out....you read posts like mine, you read the friggen installation manual, you call tech support....but that would actually require thought and care. When the condensate drains back down into the heat exchanger for a few years and you errode the exchanger they won't warranty it. It's about 300 in parts and for you...most of the day to change it out. It's there for a reason, smart guy.




jrplumbing74 said:


> Hey Tankless, I fully expected for you to come over here and help me do this job. I mean my god man how in the world do any of the rest of us dumbass plumbers ever figure this out??? By the way, I do have cable link installed.....I just think its funny you caught that and not the electrical whips laying on the floor not plugged in. Job in a basement mechanical room where GC put foam board everywhere.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Based on knowing where the ports for all the utilities are on these heaters and iso valves it looks parallel to me...the bends in the pex at certain parts tells me so and it's without a data connect cable. It will work, just not correctly.





Matt said:


> So if the inlet is piped in parallel, it's ALL parallel huh?
> 
> 
> What's wrong with first in last out. I don't know what that is. But it is not parallel.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Matt said:


> So if the inlet is piped in parallel, it's ALL parallel huh?
> 
> What's wrong with first in last out. I don't know what that is. But it is not parallel.


It's not well piped parallel, but it is parallel. :laughing: It definitely isn't serial. Has to be one or the other. Just because it doesn't necessarily feed equally doesn't make it non-parallel. 

The inlet is piped from the middle with equal length feeds, but the outlet is just random lengths. Water flows into and out of both heaters simultaneously (maybe they don't feed totally equally) - but it's still parallel.

If you piped into the first heater, out of the first heater and into the second heater, out of the second heater to the house - that's serial.

Of course I realize you know all this - you're just being extra pedantic because you don't like jrplumbing74's work. :laughing::laughing:


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Matt said:


> The post above is the one I was referring to. I usually make it a rule to address the OP, but if I address someone else in the thread I would call them by name or quote them to avoid confusion...


Well, it was very confusing. You quote me and then write two sentences that I have to assume are addressed to me. Why else would you quote me? 

It's real easy to do a second quote from the other guy if you want both responses in the same post. The clipboard is your friend (CTRL-C = copy, CTRL-V = paste). It's real simple to type your own quote tags, but be sure to preview before posting - one missed character can really botch things up.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Tankless said:


> It's not my fault you don't know what you're doing...
> ...It's there for a reason, smart guy.


Geesh, Tankless. You're coming across as a tad venomous. In a bad mood today are we? :laughing:


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

I'll be the first to admit I have never installed tankless, I have never touched pex or that flexible csst gas pipe but you said "pick it apart". It looks like sheet :whistling2: Nothing beats a ridgid, plumb, level, neat and square install that is "SUPPORTED" properly. I'll keep my copper and black iron thank you. :yes:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

You can also use the multi-quote button futz. It's pretty easy.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Matt said:


> You can also use the multi-quote button futz. It's pretty easy.


There's a multi-quote button?  I didn't know about that one. Where is it?

EDIT: Never mind - I found it.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

I realize this may be drifting off topic, but if we want to be compensated and respected as professionals we need to provide professional work. This is Handyman Calibur. Sorry dude, I take pride in my work and I hate to see see this kind of stuff diminishing the perception of our trade. I realize it may be quicker, faster, more profitable in the short term but I guarantee as soon as you are gone Mr. homeowner that just paid you big bucks is thinkin' to himself.........SUM***** I coulda did that myself. :blink::yes:


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Pipe Rat said:


> I realize this may be drifting off topic, but if we want to be compensated and respected as professionals we need to provide professional work. This is Handyman Calibur. Sorry dude, I take pride in my work and I hate to see see this kind of stuff diminishing the perception of our trade. _I realize it may be quicker, faster, more profitable in the short term but I guarantee as soon as you are gone Mr. homeowner that just paid you big bucks is thinkin' to himself.........SUM***** I coulda did that myself_. :blink::yes:


That may be so but I bet Mr. Homeowner is thinking what a great deal he got. Probably adds more fuel to his thoughts of how the other guys were way overpriced. Unless this was done just for profit, I'm thinking this was a "lowest bid" scenario. A plumber who does a lot of these and is qualified, uses type L copper and a level, runs sch. 40 steel, uses unistrut and backer boards, etc. is going to be 50% more expensive. If this is the case, it makes it even tougher to charge a fair price for good work. I deal with it all the time. Customers think a tankless install is just as good as any other and if one's $500 - $1,000 less, why not? They don't know that there's dozens of ways to lower the price and it DOES affect quality.





Paul


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

rocksteady said:


> That may be so but I bet Mr. Homeowner is thinking what a great deal he got. Probably adds more fuel to his thoughts of how the other guys were way overpriced. Unless this was done just for profit, I'm thinking this was a "lowest bid" scenario. A plumber who does a lot of these and is qualified, uses type L copper and a level, runs sch. 40 steel, uses unistrut and backer boards, etc. is going to be 50% more expensive. If this is the case, it makes it even tougher to charge a fair price for good work. I deal with it all the time. Customers think a tankless install is just as good as any other and if one's $500 - $1,000 less, why not? They don't know that there's dozens of ways to lower the price and it DOES affect quality.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just sayin' whatever your comfortable putting your name on. I am sure it could be done neater even with those materials for not much time. I'm not signing off on it. :no: I betcha for 200 bucks time and material it could look like a $1000 comparatively speaking. I have to draw the line in the sand on this one. :whistling2:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

*Damn, *


*Plumbers on here are more brutal than 2 fat women fighting over the last slice of pie at church.*


*It's really that damn bad.







*


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Be that as it may, I wouldn't pay 50% more for the things you just listed.

Fact is, there isn't much mechanically wrong with what he did and in all likelihood it will last just as long as your install...........longer in some geographical locations.



rocksteady said:


> That may be so but I bet Mr. Homeowner is thinking what a great deal he got. Probably adds more fuel to his thoughts of how the other guys were way overpriced. Unless this was done just for profit, I'm thinking this was a "lowest bid" scenario. A plumber who does a lot of these and is qualified, uses type L copper and a level, runs sch. 40 steel, uses unistrut and backer boards, etc. is going to be 50% more expensive. If this is the case, it makes it even tougher to charge a fair price for good work. I deal with it all the time. Customers think a tankless install is just as good as any other and if one's $500 - $1,000 less, why not? They don't know that there's dozens of ways to lower the price and it DOES affect quality.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

With the exception I pointed out on 1st page:

1. If they take .5 gpm to fire, throw .75 GPM at them, flow splits, neither one will fire (Without Data cord). You see data cords communicate the two together, shuts down the water inlet valve of one, thereby staging the lag unit to allow the lead unit to fire on designed flow rate. 

2. As Tankless pointed out and its in Rinnai's manual (but who reads those, plumbers know more) no condensate drain to protect a Cat III vented tankless and your asking for trouble by way of destroyed heat exchangers and burners. 

Gas line, piping, backboard, aside, those 2 above are shortcuts not to take.


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## chuckscott (Oct 20, 2010)

Pipe Rat said:


> I guarantee as soon as you are gone Mr. homeowner that just paid you big bucks is thinkin' to himself.........SUM***** I coulda did that myself. :blink::yes:



And Mr Homeowner will attempt the next job himself, screw it up and call you to fix what seemed like an easy job. :whistling2:


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Looks good but, I would stop that habit of running gastite directly to fixtures, and remember every LP appliance has to have a drip leg.


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

I don't run much gas here, but I beleive our code changed u don't need a drip leg at each appliance. I haven't read it, but a friend at a gas company told. I didn't look it up because i put one in anyway. He gave me a bunch of kits seeing as he didn't need them anymore.


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