# Temp leak fix



## Jklsr55 (Sep 8, 2010)

I have a leak in a very old building. Several years ago the heat piping was completely redone in pvc... Yes, pvc. I have a leak on the back side of a 1inch threaded ball valve. It is threaded onto a 1inch pvc male adapter. The crappy thing is it is in the basement. They don't want to drain the building down in the winter. Any stop gap ideas to stop this leak for a few months?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Jklsr55 said:


> I have a leak in a very old building. Several years ago the heat piping was completely redone in pvc... Yes, pvc. I have a leak on the back side of a 1inch threaded ball valve. It is threaded onto a 1inch pvc male adapter. The crappy thing is it is in the basement. They don't want to drain the building down in the winter. Any stop gap ideas to stop this leak for a few months?


Call a plumber


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

Jklsr55 said:


> I have a leak in a very old building. Several years ago the heat piping was completely redone in pvc... Yes, pvc. I have a leak on the back side of a 1inch threaded ball valve. It is threaded onto a 1inch pvc male adapter. The crappy thing is it is in the basement. They don't want to drain the building down in the winter. Any stop gap ideas to stop this leak for a few months?


1" shark bite ?


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Jb weld


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## antiCon (Jun 15, 2012)

Duck tape a funnel to the leaking area and then Dump a can of glue into the funnel


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

Hire a licensed plumber. He'll recommend freezing the line and replacing the valve.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I have never used them on PVC but would a Jet Sweat work?

If so...

You might be able to shut down the water, cut open the line, insert a Jet Sweat to hold back the water, and then glue on a male a female adapter (with a clamp) followed by a short nipple and new ball valve.

There are also a number of bolt style compression coupling that might be a legitimate option as well. They will have more risk as time passes though.

I don't think the freezing idea is gonna fly on PVC. 

If they refuse to have the water shut down to fix the leak, then they will likely get the opportunity to shut it down to fix a flood.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

I would recommend replacing everything with copper or oxygen barrier pex. Who uses PVC for hydronic heat? Its not rated for 180deg temperatures thats insane. Leaking joint on PVC can be fixed temporarily with "amazing plumbing goop" comes in a purple tube supply house or hardware stores usually sell it, but thats a ghetto repair, cut it open get two 1" jet sweats glue in two new valves then remove jet sweat dry out water & glue in New piece of pipe. Let glue dry a while b4 you open valves. If I went to a job with PVC for heat loops I would red tag the unit and cut the power.


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

The freeze kit works with PVC. You just need to use the proper clamps.


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## antiCon (Jun 15, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> I have never used them on PVC but would a Jet Sweat work?
> 
> If so...
> 
> ...


 what Biz said... sry thought might have been a hack.. not licensed plumber DOH!! yea if its pvc dont freeze it.. id try a glue ball valve after a jet sweat to stop the water.. or male adpt.. dont like to use pvc females on metal as the like to crack...


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## Jklsr55 (Sep 8, 2010)

Why are the guys on this forum so condescending? I am a licensed master plumber. The valve in question is in the basement of a 4 story building. It is my every intention to change it out in the spring. I am in Montana. Draining the system down for this little problem is not an option. I'd LOVE to repipe it all in copper, trust me. It's not going to happen. I would just like to stop the drip until I can drain the system this spring. I run multi million dollar projects. I am a competent plumber. A pvc mip adapter into a brass valve is not something I deal with much. I was just looking for some insight. Not to be ridiculed...


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Jklsr55 said:


> Why are the guys on this forum so condescending? I am a licensed master plumber. The valve in question is in the basement of a 4 story building. It is my every intention to change it out in the spring. I am in Montana. Draining the system down for this little problem is not an option. I'd LOVE to repipe it all in copper, trust me. It's not going to happen. I would just like to stop the drip until I can drain the system this spring. I run multi million dollar projects. I am a competent plumber. A pvc mip adapter into a brass valve is not something I deal with much. I was just looking for some insight. Not to be ridiculed...


 Is the whole building heating system been repiped in pvc??


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

PVC pipe install solvent weld PVC valve, metal pipe use metal valve. Makes it easy.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

theplumbinator said:


> PVC pipe install solvent weld PVC valve, metal pipe use metal valve. Makes it easy.


What about using that wrap stuff [like the doctors use for casts]

Wet it wrap it hardens even under water. Never used it but it might be the tempoary fix you need. I've seen it in the supply houses.
Yellow and black printing.

http://www.piperepair.net/pipewrap.html


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

If it just a drip.. let it go til off season replacement..


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## Tim`s Plumbing (Jan 17, 2012)

I have done jobs for pools heaters at health clubs that out of the heat exchanger going to the pool is done in sch 80 cpvc. But I have never heard of pvc being used for hydronic heating.


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## Jklsr55 (Sep 8, 2010)

To answer the question a few have asked, yes the entire 4 story building was repiped in pvc about 20 plus years ago. It is the county Court House where I live in Montana. I almost fell over when I walked in and saw all that pvc. 3 inch down to ½ inch. And everywhere they branch off to pick up a heat pump they isolate using threaded, brass ball valves. So from the 3 inch main they tee off with 1 inch or ¾ and transition with a pvc male adapter to the brass ball valve. I know it's CRAZY. And this particular leak I was inquiring about was in the basement. With probably 40 plus pounds of pressure at the leak. Being a new construction foreman type and not a lot of service background I am aware there are tricks of the trade out there for various situations I am not aware of. I posted in the pro section because I am a pro!! And again, I hate the thought of not fixing this valve in the correct manner. I am not going to to dump a 4 story building in December and risk inclement weather. If some of you felt it was out of line for me to inquire about a quick fix my apologies...


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

PVC?? Are you sure it's not CPVC cause that makes a big difference.

Sent from my iPhone 10.5


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

Pics.....where are the pics?!!

Is the pipe white or off white?


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

I would go with the jet sweat. Probably prefab a valve piece with unions and make a cut on both sides of the valve, shove the jet sweats in and hold the water while attaching unions to existing piping!

You could also use pvc compression type couplings and rod the pieces of existing together.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Do they make 3" CPVC? This problem sounds really difficult to fix if the water cannot be drained from the system temporarily. I wonder if one of those plastic welders would work?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Jklsr55 said:


> To answer the question a few have asked, yes the entire 4 story building was repiped in pvc about 20 plus years ago. It is the county Court House where I live in Montana. I almost fell over when I walked in and saw all that pvc. 3 inch down to ½ inch. And everywhere they branch off to pick up a heat pump they isolate using threaded, brass ball valves. So from the 3 inch main they tee off with 1 inch or ¾ and transition with a pvc male adapter to the brass ball valve. I know it's CRAZY. And this particular leak I was inquiring about was in the basement. With probably 40 plus pounds of pressure at the leak. Being a new construction foreman type and not a lot of service background I am aware there are tricks of the trade out there for various situations I am not aware of. I posted in the pro section because I am a pro!! And again, I hate the thought of not fixing this valve in the correct manner. I am not going to to dump a 4 story building in December and risk inclement weather. If some of you felt it was out of line for me to inquire about a quick fix my apologies...


You were not out of line at all. Your odd job question is one of the reasons the PZ exists. Maybe a few people are on edge because we recently had a rash of DIY'ers and spammers.

It sounds really odd for heating pipe to be PVC. It starts to break down at about 140deg. 

As others have suggested...is it possible that t is actually CPVC?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Same here, you re not out of line.. but there is a story about the lowest bidder installed a steam boiler with PVC pipe and fittings.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

He gave a clue-it's a water source heat pump loop, loop temps range between 80-110 degrees.

I bet there is a cooling tower outside too (open or closed) in this loop drained or glycol system.

Very common to use sch80 CPVC


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## Jklsr55 (Sep 8, 2010)

I should come have taken a few pics. I will next week and post them. And to answer the question about CPVC, no... It schedule 40 pvc. The larger bore fittings are pressure. But anything under 2 inch that I have seen so far is DWV type fittings. It really is a shame because this is a pre 1900, BEAUTIFUL sand stone, old school court house with a copper dome and the whole shebang. Truly an amazing structure. Whoever "value engineered" the copper away for pvc should be hung in the gallows that still remain on the premises. They have had nothing but problems like this...


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## Jklsr55 (Sep 8, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> He gave a clue-it's a water source heat pump loop, loop temps range between 80-110 degrees.
> 
> I bet there is a cooling tower outside too (open or closed) in this loop drained or glycol system.
> 
> Very common to use sch80 CPVC


Yes. You are exactly correct. There is a cooling tower that is drained every year. There is no glycol. Just some conditioner or rust prohibitor I believe. You are saying this application is common??


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## alliance1 (Dec 20, 2012)

If each apt has its own hydro coil I would think that you could use sched 80 pvc and run the water at 120-140 with no issues. As far as fixing I've seen guys chisel a little where the threads are and packed it with steal wool or graphite...
I would wait until spring.


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## Jklsr55 (Sep 8, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> He gave a clue-it's a water source heat pump loop, loop temps range between 80-110 degrees.
> 
> I bet there is a cooling tower outside too (open or closed) in this loop drained or glycol system.
> 
> Very common to use sch80 CPVC


You said it is common to use pvc in this application. Is it because heat pumps systems typically do not demand such high temperatures? I could see using schedule 80 in this instance but schedule 40?


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Jklsr55 said:


> Yes. You are exactly correct. There is a cooling tower that is drained every year. There is no glycol. Just some conditioner or rust prohibitor I believe. You are saying this application is common??


Everything till you mention DWV PVC, that's just wrong.

There will be a boiler in the system injecting heat into loop to maintain proper loop temp, because if they are heat pumps, the condensers during heat mode is rejecting the heat to the water, thus cooling it. In the summer during cooling mode the condensor rejects the heat raising loop temps thus the cooling tower is needed. 

Most often it's done with Sch 80 then adapted to a set of valves, circuit setters and hoses for the water source heat pump connections.


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## Jklsr55 (Sep 8, 2010)

alliance1 said:


> If each apt has its own hydro coil I would think that you could use sched 80 pvc and run the water at 120-140 with no issues. As far as fixing I've seen guys chisel a little where the threads are and packed it with steal wool or graphite...
> I would wait until spring.


See? This is why I come to this forum. Seriously. I have never heard of anything even remotely similar to this procedure. This instance however, a 20 year old pvc male adapter... I think I will pass on using a chisel on the threads! But that is why this place is so useful. Someone somewhere has probably lived your issue already. Your a moron if you pass up such a wellspring of experience. That might sound corny but it is true. That's why the "call a plumber" cracks bum me out. Maybe there is a way to provide proof of licensure to access the pro section of this forum?


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## Jklsr55 (Sep 8, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> Everything till you mention DWV PVC, that's just wrong.
> 
> There will be a boiler in the system injecting heat into loop to maintain proper loop temp, because if they are heat pumps, the condensers during heat mode is rejecting the heat to the water, thus cooling it. In the summer during cooling mode the condensor rejects the heat raising loop temps thus the cooling tower is needed.
> 
> Most often it's done with Sch 80 then adapted to a set of valves, circuit setters and hoses for the water source heat pump connections.


When you say "set of valves" are you referring to flow controls? (Most flow controls these days en corporate unions and ball valves into a single piece of equipment). I assume that is what you are saying. And again, given the low temps I can see using schedule 80 . But isn't schedule 80 pipe and fittings expensive as well?


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Try smearing some quick hardening 2-part mix epoxy into the threads. 

Regarding the situation I've seen this a few times and this is usually how it goes-

City or county building with old heating system perhaps steam and no central air conditioning. Along comes the hero, a performance contracting company that promises a new system, air conditioning and some energy savings. He gets quotes from the local contractors, since the job is not for a municipality but the performance contracting company directly, prevailing wages don't apply nor labor unions or anything else. No approvals needed, votes, because there is no out of pocket expenses for the municipality. 

After driving down the lowest bid, they waive the job in front of a bidder and tell them they have the job if that can come in a little lower. 

Now the jobs so tight, low bidder probably underbid because he doesn't know this type of scope anyways, does it poorly, cuts corners and when held accountable on some items no doubt loses his shirt on the job.

The performance contractor makes the energy payments, pays off the system with the savings, his return on investment comes back 5 fold, the mayor and town council is happy, they have a new system and AC. But then they inherit the system after time goes by, never appreciated the energy savings that would have paid for a good new system twice, and quickly discover their system was installed cutting corners and will need extensive service and/or replacement soon.

Where is the performance contractor? Gone, not to be found.


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## Jklsr55 (Sep 8, 2010)

I have no insight into the politics of this particular project. I can tell you it has been boondoggle from its conception. This leak situation I am having is by no means the first. Even though I was told they have had issues like this before and by no means find me at fault, I still feel some obligation as I was the guy working on it when it started. I just like to leave things better than how I find them if possible. I guess it isn't always... 

When you say two part epoxy are you referring to a JB Weld type product?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Buy yourself some sharkbites and get it over with


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## Jklsr55 (Sep 8, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> Buy yourself some sharkbites and get it over with


Ok... One last time. 3 inch main... A 3x1 inch tee in the vertical... A 4 inch piece of 1 inch pvc pipe and a 90 turning the branch line horizontal... Another piece of 1 inch pipe 12 inches in length with a 1 inch MIP adapter glued on the end... And threaded onto this adapter is a brass 1 inch threaded ball valves... WHERE DO YOU PROPOSE I USE THIS SHARKBITE YOU KEEP ADVOCATING FOR??? 

If you're making a joke fine. If not, go to bed. It's late where you live...


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Here you go


http://www.jomarvalve.com/products/Add-A-Valve.html


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

I have never used an add- a- valves for pvc pipe but i have used them on copper and they work great.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Jklsr55 said:


> Ok... One last time. 3 inch main... A 3x1 inch tee in the vertical... A 4 inch piece of 1 inch pvc pipe and a 90 turning the branch line horizontal... Another piece of 1 inch pipe 12 inches in length with a 1 inch MIP adapter glued on the end... And threaded onto this adapter is a brass 1 inch threaded ball valves... WHERE DO YOU PROPOSE I USE THIS SHARKBITE YOU KEEP ADVOCATING FOR???
> 
> If you're making a joke fine. If not, go to bed. It's late where you live...


Everything possible ... They do make push fittings all the way up to 2" 

There is ways to isolate the area if there is no valve ... Get yourself a freeze kit ... 

A simple task like this should be a no brainer...

I have froze piping on working boiler system with the circ pumps on and with glycol in it ... 

I made a thread " pipe freezing methods" look it up ...

Worst case use liquid nitrogen


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

We've come full circle I think :lol:


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> Everything possible ... They do make push fittings all the way up to 2"
> 
> There is ways to isolate the area if there is no valve ... Get yourself a freeze kit ...
> 
> ...


Have you ever froze sch. 40 pvc?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Relic said:


> We've come full circle I think :lol:


No such thing on the PZ. We never met a dead horse we would not beat...again. :laughing:


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> No such thing on the PZ. We never met a dead horse we would not beat...again. :laughing:


 and when the first horse is turned to glue we bring in a second ! lol


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

justme said:


> Have you ever froze sch. 40 pvc?


And what would be the problem with sch 40 pipe ... What you think you can't freeze it ...

I froze abs is PVC for some reason undo able in your opinion


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> And what would be the problem with sch 40 pipe ... What you think you can't freeze it ...
> 
> I froze abs is PVC for some reason undo able in your opinion


I know absolutely nothing about freezing PVC for repairs but it seems the brittle nature of PVC makes it risky. Is that not an issue?


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

Regular sch40 no problem. Make sure you get the correct clamps and you're all set. Will freeze in 10 minutes or less.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> And what would be the problem with sch 40 pipe ... What you think you can't freeze it ...
> 
> I froze abs is PVC for some reason undo able in your opinion



You have never had a problem freezing a pressurized abs or pvc line with it, I don't know bursting wide open. I would be afraid of the liability even afterwards of the spot you froze bursting at a later date.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

justme said:


> You have never had a problem freezing a pressurized abs or pvc line with it, I don't know bursting wide open. I would be afraid of the liability even afterwards of the spot you froze bursting at a later date.


You have to be able to release the pressure between the freeze area ... Drill small hole to allow pressure out ...

I think I went over this in the thread I mentioned


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

There I just bumped that thread


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> You have to be able to release the pressure between the freeze area ... Drill small hole to allow pressure out ...
> 
> I think I went over this in the thread I mentioned


I missed that thread , but what your saying about releasing the pressure makes sense. It would allow you to make the freeze without it expanding too much and causing the pipe to burst. That would be something interesting to watch.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

justme said:


> I missed that thread , but what your saying about releasing the pressure makes sense. It would allow you to make the freeze without it expanding too much and causing the pipe to burst. That would be something interesting to watch.


They drill a small hole even in steel pipe when using nitrogen. I have participated in it many times.


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## Jklsr55 (Sep 8, 2010)

*Now that's funny...*



AlbacoreShuffle said:


> and when the first horse is turned to glue we bring in a second ! lol


I do think I am in agreement with Mr. Relic. While I have been using freeze technology for years I have no intention of trying freeze 20 year old pvc. The downside is just too great. I'd rather do as the moderator mentioned and let it drip until March. This was actually my plan all along. I just wanted to throw this thing out there and see if I couldn't learn something new. And while this particular leak we have been discussing remains unchanged, I have learned some new things. I am by no means infallible. I appreciate the time you folks take out of your day to interject a little of your wisdom and knowledge on my behalf. It sounds like there are members that like to take this resource for granted. Not me.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Jklsr55 said:


> I do think I am in agreement with Mr. Relic. While I have been using freeze technology for years I have no intention of trying freeze 20 year old pvc. The downside is just too great. I'd rather do as the moderator mentioned and let it drip until March. This was actually my plan all along. I just wanted to throw this thing out there and see if I couldn't learn something new. And while this particular leak we have been discussing remains unchanged, I have learned some new things. I am by no means infallible. I appreciate the time you folks take out of your day to interject a little of your wisdom and knowledge on my behalf. It sounds like there are members that like to take this resource for granted. Not me.


I bump the pipe freezing method thread for you...

I hope some day it helps you out ...


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