# Big Box? Whats the BEEF?



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

If you buy all of your materials there I can understand why you dont like them. (missing parts)--only reason I can think

If you dislike like these stores can you tell me why?

I dont like what happened to the "little guy" either but we live in a free market...right


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

I do not care for the Depot because they never seem to have what I am looking for or the quality of the stuff is sub-par. I also do not like the fact that at least here they are a haven for illegal day laborers. I've heard a lot of people complain they lose business to the Depot but we found we gained work from people buying there.

On another note last week I was at a transitional housing group home in Los Angeles (Joey (Mrs Seat Down) is the ED there) for single moms where the Depot donated $80,000+ and over 200 of their employees to build a new playground for the kids. The month before they did the same thing at a Community Center in a poor area of SLC where my daughter is a director. You have to give them credit for giving back to the communities.

Mark


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> I do not care for the Depot because they never seem to have what I am looking for or the quality of the stuff is sub-par. I also do not like the fact that at least here they are a haven for illegal day laborers. I've heard a lot of people complain they lose business to the Depot but we found we gained work from people buying there.
> 
> On another note last week I was at a transitional housing group home in Los Angeles (Joey (Mrs Seat Down) is the ED there) for single moms where the Depot donated $80,000+ and over 200 of their employees to build a new playground for the kids. The month before they did the same thing at a Community Center in a poor area of SLC where my daughter is a director. You have to give them credit for giving back to the communities.
> 
> Mark


The HD here sells Charlotte Pipe and Fittings. They sell Watts PRV's and Backflow's, and Muller copper and valves.Oatey glues and slovents. Thats not to "sub-par" to me.
HD does not want people to stand in their parking lot and look for work but what are they going to do about it? ( BTW they get hired by HO and Contractors)
I also get work from people that buy there materials from there. I love it when part's are missing or broke( more money in my pocket and I dont have to warrenty any of the stuff)


They also hav classes for Kids and adults. ( like tool safty or "how-to" build a birdhouse)


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

I've never really bought plumbing supplies from them other then little stuff in an emergency. I was referring more to hardware type stuff.

Mark


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

HD also donated almost the money for the Atlanta Aquarium. Not chump change if you've been there. 

Back in Va Beach, HD was great, sold everything, open till 10 and would beat Ferguson on almost every price. And the stuff they sold sold was the same as fergusons-no difference in quality. It was fergusons I have a problem with.

Now that I'm here in CA, I found a great supply house-Harbor Plumbing. Beats Ferguson by a long shot and is 2 minutes away. I also visited Lowes and was suprised at the marketing to contractors. 2" copper pipe, SS hose clamps by the 25 bag, 2" PRV, contractor pricing in bulk, etc. It seemed alright. And Lowes has 10% off coupons all the time. I would shop there. The HD here........not so much. Crowded, overpriced, poor selection.

I was really shocked the first moment I pulled into a HD here in CA. Day laborers everwhere, I mean everywhere. Never saw them in VA. I think it all depends where you are.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> I've never really bought plumbing supplies from them other then little stuff in an emergency. I was referring more to hardware type stuff.
> 
> Mark


 eh? Ive never really bought plumbing supplies from them either unless you count the stuff ive bought from them?:blink:

sorry mark I had too


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

For those of you that do service work, why are you helping your competition by buying supplies there?


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## Pipedoc (Jun 14, 2009)

^^^^ What the Killer Spider said.


That is my only beef with them. I don't shop there even for personal items except unless it is an absolute must for that one simple part I need and didn't have on the truck.

Also there just isn't a need for me to shop there with Wolverine Brass and Barnetts deliveries and several local plumbing supply houses.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

GREENPLUM said:


> eh? Ive never really bought plumbing supplies from them either unless you count the stuff ive bought from them?:blink:
> 
> sorry mark I had too


I guess what I meant to say is I might stop there on a Sunday evening if I am short a part on an emergency job but I would not use them for every day stuff. I've never quite understood buying pipes in 10' lengths or buying faucets one at a time. It was always just too easy to call the wholesaler and have him deliver our stuff to the shop or the job depending on what it was. Home Depot tried their luck at being a wholesaler (H-D Supply) but didn't quite make the profit they wanted.

Mark


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Killertoiletspider said:


> For those of you that do service work, why are you helping your competition by buying supplies there?


Amen.

I don't buy materials there and probably never will.

How does one be profitable trying to sell 400A's when the HO can buy them for the same money?

Not trying to open the whole, "labor or materials- where does your profit come from" debate, but I'm not ready to give up on material sales as a profit center.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> For those of you that do service work, why are you helping your competition by buying supplies there?


I do service work. I purchased a shovel from HD. Exactly how does it help my competition


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## Pipedoc (Jun 14, 2009)

GREENPLUM said:


> I do service work. I purchased a shovel from HD. Exactly how does it help my competition


 
Because they are profiting off your purchase.

Remember, they _are_ the competition. :yes:


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Pipedoc said:


> Because they are profiting off your purchase.
> 
> Remember, they _are_ the competition. :yes:


I am wayyy behind if they are my competition. I guess my supply house is also my competition.
How do you avoid this? Do you make your own tools and fittings? Do you forge your own steel. Do you have mineral right's to the metals in the ground?:whistling2:


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

I've never had a problem with people supplying their own parts. It's simple, I don't warranty your parts. If I am installing a faucet and there is a problem you either pay for me to wait while you run for the part or you pay for me to come back after you get the new part. You saved $6 on your ballcock but it will cost you an hour service call plus parts if there is a go back. It doesn't take too long to educate the customers worth keeping. On top of that the DIY usually have a problem with their install and have to call us out anyways.

Mark


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Does your supply house install 40 gallon electric water heaters for $239.00????



GREENPLUM said:


> I am wayyy behind if they are my competition. I guess my supply house is also my competition.
> How do you avoid this? Do you make your own tools and fittings? Do you forge your own steel. Do you have mineral right's to the metals in the ground?:whistling2:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

GREENPLUM said:


> I am wayyy behind if they are my competition. I guess my supply house is also my competition.
> How do you avoid this? Do you make your own tools and fittings? Do you forge your own steel. Do you have mineral right's to the metals in the ground?:whistling2:


 
Your supply house is a wholesaler, not a retailer in *direct* competition with you.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I'm not loyal to my supply house. 


How can I be? 


They close at 4:30pm, they are CLOSED on saturday and not open on sunday. 


I don't recall service plumbing being within those time figures.


Plus, 

I've made thousands between the fellows in the plumbing department that spin calls out of those stores. Passing my cards around, giving out my number, wearing my company hats in their store.


I'll never drive past one store to get to another if they have the same product. If it is specialty, then of course, I'll go where I have to but I find pricing for PVC pipe and fittings considerably higher than the big box stores, and the big box stores always has black iron pipe and fittings cheaper, always. 

I go with the flow. 


I've landed calls for having my truck in the parking lot at both Lowe's and Home Depot. 

The mindset is that I'm loyal to *no one*. Plus, I love looking at women, all kinds of them, talking to them at those stores. Ain't nothing to see at a plumbing supply house. Women are the reason I breathe. 


You married folk aren't going to understand those last two statements because this single guy always has a master plan. :jester: Ain't nuttin to get tired of if everything is always new. :laughing:


The loyalty to these supply houses don't really work the model of being angry at the big box stores, because one is doing practically a better job, even in the worse case scenario by default, and minimizing the labor costs by "It's here, just buy it" attitude. 

Make a plumbing supply house that stays open into the evenings, saturdays and sundays and they'll earn my spending habits, but we all know that'll never happen.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Protech said:


> Does your supply house install 40 gallon electric water heaters for $239.00????


They sure dont. Again, its a free market here in America. I am glad HD install's WH for whatever they charge, I hate the kind of customers that they get. Its kinda like they are workin for me (weedin out the supercheap customers) Also the Companys that Install the WH for HD are LOCAL, which is GOOD for the community. 

Does your supply house give anything back to you local community? HD sure does and its in the Million's. If your company is loosing biz because HD is beating you up your doing something wrong.


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## Pipedoc (Jun 14, 2009)

Make no mistake about it, every plumbing service shop in your area is losing business to HD.

I don't consider it being loyal to the supply house. I look at it as being loyal to myself and my business.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

GREENPLUM said:


> They sure dont. Again, its a free market here in America. I am glad HD install's WH for whatever they charge, I hate the kind of customers that they get. Its kinda like they are workin for me (weedin out the supercheap customers) Also the Companys that Install the WH for HD are LOCAL, which is GOOD for the community.
> 
> *Does your supply house give anything back to you local community?* HD sure does and its in the Million's. If your company is loosing biz because HD is beating you up your doing something wrong.


 

They are barely staying afloat at this point. At one time donations were common of product to certain projects but that is no longer a possibility, just better pricing. 


If there are plumbing companies going out of business, no one should expect plumbing supply houses not to follow either. 

There is a Fergusons in my area that I don't know how they are paying for 4 employees 40+ hour weeks with the empty parking lot syndrome for so long. 

I know plumbers that just won't buy there because it almost seems like you're going to pay for the lack of activity. 

I would know; I got hammered on a pressure reducing valve that was twice the cost as another supply house had it. 


I ordered 4 more, took them 2 months to call me and tell me they was in, told them to keep it; I had put in 6 during that time and if they're that casual about ordering I don't need it. I made sure I told them the cost difference between their competition as well. 

And they wonder why they are losing money every day...


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Pipedoc said:


> Make no mistake about it, every plumbing service shop in your area is losing business to HD.
> 
> I don't consider it being loyal to the supply house. I look at it as being loyal to myself and my business.


Also make no mistake about THIS, this is America and its OK for another company to come into a area and start a Biz. This isnt a NEW idea either and its never going to change. Look at it however YOU want. 
A good bizman will always find a way to profit no matter what.

So are we loosing Biz to wal-mart because they sell TOTO toilets or how about the internet plumbing sells, dont forget about ANY biz that sells anything Plumbing. Isnt it strange that I still sell Plumbing Material?:blink:


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## hulihan (Aug 11, 2009)

My wife buys alot there on our account, the only real things we buy and use from the depot, is Tape,Floor covering,Masks and once in a while hand tools, do not buy any material, it seems to be less quality, but I will say, the one by my shop and house here in Marina Del Rey is packed all day every day, I drive by it a lot, there is always a lot of day laborers, and a lot of unlicensed contractors, they may be licenced, but it does not look like it , it does seem the day labor guys are getting less work, so maybe they will start going home  I am not a big fan of hiring the illegals, but there sure are alot of company's here in la that have them working fulll time  Oh yea, we have been buying from the same supply house for the last ten plus years, recently they have started selling 10 footers of copper, abs etc, and they now sell to anyone with a heartbeat, they say it is slow and they have to do what they can, I agree, but it is funny to see little cars with copper sticking out of every window


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## Pipedoc (Jun 14, 2009)

GREENPLUM said:


> Also make no mistake about THIS, this is America and its OK for another company to come into a area and start a Biz.


I never claimed it wasn't. Of course it is okay. That staement is just silly.



GREENPLUM said:


> This isnt a NEW idea either and its never going to change.


Again, never claimed it was.



GREENPLUM said:


> Look at it however YOU want.


You asked, I answered.



GREENPLUM said:


> A good bizman will always find a way to profit no matter what.


I agree. I never claimed anything to the contrary.



GREENPLUM said:


> So are we loosing Biz to wal-mart because they sell TOTO toilets or how about the internet plumbing sells, dont forget about ANY biz that sells anything Plumbing.


 Not anymore. Plumbing shops lost that business a long time ago. You hardly see plumbers with showrooms anymore.



GREENPLUM said:


> Isnt it strange that I still sell Plumbing Material?:blink:


Not at all.





Regardless, the origanal question was "whats the beef with the big box" and the reply is simply that they are my competitor because I _compete_ with them for installations. I choose not to shop with them for the same reason I don't call other service companies in the phone book and buy parts from them. They install some plumbing. That makes them a plumbing service company in my book. Not everyone who goes to them for plumbing is cheap. Sometimes it is because they are convenient. "Hey while I'm at the Cheapo Depot buying a new flowers I might as well pick out a faucet for the sink. Oh, look! They can install it for me too! Great!" 


Do you also buy parts from the other plumbing companies in town?


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Harbor Plumbing???? You in Oxnard? I was just there the other day







gear junkie said:


> HD also donated almost the money for the Atlanta Aquarium. Not chump change if you've been there.
> 
> Back in Va Beach, HD was great, sold everything, open till 10 and would beat Ferguson on almost every price. And the stuff they sold sold was the same as fergusons-no difference in quality. It was fergusons I have a problem with.
> 
> ...


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Tankless said:


> Harbor Plumbing???? You in Oxnard? I was just there the other day


Yes Ben is officially one of the West Coast Group now. :thumbup:

Mark


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Lets burn them down!....Just kiddin'.. I don't worry about HD . Keep your powder dry and the worm will turn !


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Pipdoc your good at cutting apart "statements" and posting your opinion or whatever you were trying to do there. Its just "silly" 

If you feel HD is a problem/threat then I understand why you dont purchase anything from them. IMO boycotting them wont do anything to help you company

Yes pipdoc I have got parts from another Plumbing contractor....and guess what else ... were friends and speak to each other on a regular basis. He has sent me work and viceversa. There is room for other Plumbers in my neck of the woods.


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## Pipedoc (Jun 14, 2009)

Thanks Greenplum.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

I don't buy fixtures from the big box stores for 2 reasons. Their Delta faucets are packaged differently for one. For example, the big store is more dedicated to the diy and they want to make it as simple as possible for the ho to " do it yourself" so they will sell them new flex supply lines along with the new faucet. Well, we plumbers know when a supply line should be changed and when we can re-use the old ones. Somehow, Delta decides not to include supply nuts with their faucets in the big store. Seems strange to me but the plumbing supply house Delta's include them in every package. I don't know about Moen and others from the big store.
# 2. When you buy a fixture from the big store and carry it all the way to the job and find it damaged or a part missing you have to take it all the way back and wait in the customer service line to return it and sometimes they just want to order the part instead of letting you swap the entire thing out. If that happened at my supply house, they would deliver me another no questions asked. Just my opinion


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Your Welcome


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Make no mistake about it....I buy SOME material at lowes and Home Depot and when I do it costs THEM money. Home depot and lowes do not make money on EVERYTHING that they sell. I'm never gonna tell you what items or how I know what I know in public. Why help my competiion right. Good day sir.:laughing:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Make no mistake about it....I buy SOME material at lowes and Home Depot and when I do it costs THEM money. Home depot and lowes do not make money on EVERYTHING that they sell. I'm never gonna tell you what items or how I know what I know in public. Why help my competiion right. Good day sir.:laughing:


 
Awe, come on tell us. We won't tell anyone else. :whistling2:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Here's the beef.

1. If I send a customer to our supply house they will not recommend another plumber or try to sell them an install. 

2. On more than one occasion their toilets had pinhole leaks in the China. Could be bad luck - but never had one from the supply house leak.

3. There sales people are not knowledgeable about their products.

4. Sales people should not be dispensing 'how to' advice when they are not plumbers.

5. They add to the misconception that everything is about getting the cheapest and that is where the value is. Rarely do you hear them advertise the long term benefits of 'quality.' 

6. Home Depot & Lowes both imply that plumbing is a DIY job - anyone can do it. There are some things that a HO can do and there are some things most HOs should never do.

And yes, on occasion we find ourselves there.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

"I don't understand. We bought that WH from Lowe's 4 years ago. Why is it leaking already?"


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

I have a love hate relationship with the big box stores.

I love them because:

1. Open on nights and weekends. 
2. They have lots of tools.
3. If I'm doing a project around the house, I can usually get everything I need under one roof.
4. There's a lot more remodeling going on simply because of their existence.
5. They will take anything back, open or not, without question.
6. They cannot compete with me. I'm a 1 man shop, I'm usually busy, and they will never be able to provide the quality personal service that I provide. I really don't care if I sell less because of them, I install more because of them.

I hate them because:
1. Their consistently out of supplies I need most.
2. 15 registers, 2 open, 20 pissed off people in line.
3. If I can't find something, I have to pull teeth to get someone. If I know exactly where everything is, they won't fn leave me alone.
4. There's always someone in front of me that bought something without a sticker. 10 minute price check, seems like an eternity, pauliplumber is flipping out.

I would say I buy about 80% of my supplies from the plumbing supply. Better service, more consistent quality, competitive pricing, they let me use their dumpster (huge perk). But if it's a weekend, night emergency, or I'm out in east butt @#$% and their closer, this is when I'll go to the dark side.
Everything is situational .


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## Turd Burglar (Sep 26, 2009)

You just saved me from posting pauli....that post about sums it up for me!:thumbsup:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I don't want to feel I'm in competition with the $239 install from gnome peepo. 


I replaced an electric water heater friday that took all but an hour. Wish they all were like that. It was a Whirlpool water heater. Customer refused a PRV/EXP tank install even though his water pressure was 120psi and the thermal expansion tank was defective.

He simply doesn't have the money. I wrote it all out on the invoice, signed.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I placed a truck stock order from a local supply house last week. Order comes in, I go over it. 

$236.00 for a 500' roll of 18-2 t'stat wire!!!WTF

I called the branch manager. Oh, sorry, we accidentally charged you by the foot. Should have been $56.00 for the roll. Effing liar. Does he really expect me to believe that they sell 2 wire by the foot? I guess I'm done with them.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

I shop smart. I shop at S mart.


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## hulihan (Aug 11, 2009)

My wife love the garden section, if the feds look at our depot account, they will think we also are in the gardening bizz & Painting Bizz, as most of what they sell is geared to homeowners, even there copper fittings look different , Not sure


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

Greenplum said:


> If you buy all of your materials there I can understand why you dont like them. (missing parts)--only reason I can think
> 
> If you dislike like these stores can you tell me why?
> 
> I dont like what happened to the "little guy" either but we live in a free market...right


I hate to get into "free market" because that's not what this discussion is about. Free market capitalism is something else entirely, and we'd do far better without it.

The problem with big box stores is not that they are competition, but that they are unfair competition. When's the last time any of us called up a manufacturer and said, "I want you to give me a faucet for a price that no one else can compete with?"

The installers for the box stores might have a license and they might not. There are companies in some areas who subcontract to Home Depot and send their guys out to install things. Some of the guys have some sort of license and some of the guys do not. In theory, the unlicensed guys don't do work that requires a license, but in practice the opposite is true. 

How many of you get your material at LESS than wholesale?

I buy things in the box stores because they won't go away if I don't and I'm not crazy enough to cut off my nose to spite my face. But I don't buy much there. And much of what I buy isn't plumbing anyway, like tarps and shop-vacs.

In 2007, the total compensation for CEO Francis S. Blake was $8,282,868. You many plumbers with that kind of income? 




Greenplum said:


> Also make no mistake about THIS, this is America and its OK for another company to come into a area and start a Biz.


That's simply not true. Communities that know a company is going to move into the area and kill other businesses and lower the standards of the community can often stop them in their tracks. These stores are leeches on the community, sending the money elsewhere and paying low wages. (ala Wal-Mart.) Even a small company must be granted a business license to operate in many communities and it can be withheld if it can be shown that the business will have a negative effect on the community.

The founders had a fear of anyone with enough money to influence government. If you think that Congress can vote their conscience with their hand in the corporate pocket, then all I can say is "Welcome to USA Corporate. We hope you still have enough money to buy our products. We've made sure they're nice and cheap, just for you. Can I show you something in a used Congressman?"


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*both stores sell junk*

there really is no comparison between what you can buy from a real plumbing supply house and the junk thay pass off at Lowes and HD..

yes you can buy pvc fittings, toilet flappers, supplies ect but the real stuff is junk...


Lowes sells *Whirlpool waterheaters...* 
if you dont know they are junk, please leave this site.. .....you are not a real plumber

The GE from HD is not so bad....ok.
------------------------------------------------------

Now,
If you want to stick yourself in your own ass some day for fun and sport, .......
try installing a Delta faucet from LOWES or HD..

or better yet , tell your customer to pick out a nice Delta Kitchen faucet at Lowes and you will install it for them.....you cant believe the mess you will get yourself into...

*they are cheap knock offs from CHINA..*
they dont even have the Delta parts in them....

THEY ARE NOT the same high quality that you get from a real supply house.....and the box it comes in looks exactly the same.....

you cant tell the difference till it pisses all over the place once it is installed....

then for the rest of the day, you are so totally screwed .
going back to Lowes and trying to get parts....:laughing::laughing:

I just took it out and went and got a good one exactly alike 
from Fergusons and it was %100 better....

.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

I would agree with you Mark about their water heaters. Out of the last 10 years I've only put in about 5 or 6. One was on a Sunday and this lady was so happy with me, doing the job on a sunday, installation went smooth. Go to light it up and nothing. Bled the gas line more and still nothing. To make a long story short, I played with it for an hour or so and it would not light. Can't remember if it was GE or Whirlpool. She's pissed, I'm pissed,it's late on a sunday, not a good situation. I also hate the cheap plastic drain that's at the bottom of these waterheaters.

I also don't like their iron gas fittings. Their lighter and less beefy than the American made gas fittings I get from the plumbing supply. I have also found the chrome plated traps and tail peices seem thinner.

I personally have had few problems with Delta, Moen, or even Kohler faucets from big box stores. The Lav faucets usually come with a cheaper pop up, but that's the only difference I've noticed. I have also found little or no difference with name brand toilets or tub/shower valves.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Oh the Kohler junk is even junkier at cheapo. If you can believe it. We just installed 2 self rim china lav's, wobbled all over the place. Cheap a-- faucets, all plastic, even the threads to mount it to the deck. WC rocks and tank is all crooked on the bowl. I really believe that they have gotten WORSE over the last couple of years. I used to hate to put this junk in. I'm over it. Landlord supplied the sh--. I quoted 3/4 of a day, took 2 hrs. :thumbsup:


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

So many people supply their own faucets now, I must be getting used to it. I've yet to see a Kohler faucet with plastic shanks though. That's pretty bad. Everyone in my area gets a flyer from depot and lowes every week, so they see a faucet they want, go buy it and call me. In a 20 mile radius from my house, there is 4 home depot's and one lowes. They are trying to build 2 more lowes.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I can count 3 of each ...Home depot and lowes around me and I could be missing one. So we have 6 within 20 miles.


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## grandpa (Jul 13, 2008)

Not to particularly defend HD, but as far as the illegal alien hangout problem, it is beyond their control. I feel quite certain the HD management would prefer they weren't there. But the parking lot usually belongs to a landlord, and legally there is not much a store can do. Up in the LA area, some city councils have REQUIRED HD to build shelters for them!


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