# Help Diagnosing



## 1929chrysler (Jul 10, 2012)

I wasn't sure wether to put the question here or commercial since I have limited experience in commercial so I decided to put here. Mods can move if need be.

A good customer of mine referred me to one of his friends who is in charge of a large retirement home. They have several commercial toilets with the Sloan flushometers. These branch lines are constantly clogging requiring maintenance crews to pull the toilets and cable. Their current plumber recommended to remove the existing toilets, re-plumb and install pressure assisted Flushmate toilets. The customer became suspicious of the estimate/recommendation and wants a second opinion.

I stopped by today to take a quick look. The toilets are in an old section of the building and the maintenance guy says their plumber said there is low water pressure which could be why they recommended the toilet change outs. I have not done any diagnostics yet other than flush the toilets and indeed they do flush very poorly.

The first thing I'm going to do on Monday is pull the toilets and camera inspect the lines to determine if there are any issues with cast iron scaling or other problems with wipes getting hung up. If the lines check out then my focus will come back to the toilets.

As mentioned I have limited experience with diagnosing these Sloan valves so your help is much appreciated. If I remember correctly these flushometers depend on a specific pressure range to work properly, correct? 

Also, the toilets do look pretty old so mineral deposits in the port holes could be an issue. There are no markings from what I can see to tell me what the GPF are, only the old font style "Standard" on the bowl.

Do you have any other suggestions on helping me diagnose this problem?


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

All I heard was retirement home and I put my money on wipes

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Several issues could be arise without it being the toilet or sewer line.

Tip. Take a 5 gallon bucket full of water and pour it down a toilet or all of them in question if you like. If the toilet flushes with no issue then the line is good and there isn't an obstruction in the toilet.

If that checks out I would direct my focus to the flushometers.

The rubber seal in the stop could have given up and only allowing a minimum amount of water to the flushometer making it flush poorly 

The diaphragm could be trashed up, vacuum breaker could be shot. 

Could have a pressure fluctuation inside the water mains during peak times starving pressure from the headers...

Deposits in the hole below the rim are few in far between here, but could be an issue as well.

Depending on the age it could be a 3.5 gallon flush or 1.5 gallon, all depends on the year installed


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Plumberman said:


> Several issues could be arise without it being the toilet or sewer line.
> 
> Tip. Take a 5 gallon bucket full of water and pour it down a toilet or all of them in question if you like. If the toilet flushes with no issue then the line is good and there isn't an obstruction in the toilet.
> 
> ...


And some Einstein may have come along and put 1.6 gpf flushometer kits on a 3.5 gpf toilet...


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

Redwood said:


> And some Einstein may have come along and put 1.6 gpf flushometer kits on a 3.5 gpf toilet...


Exactly! Plus old folks homes have problems anyway because what is flushed is usually like the consistency of oatmeal and needs the water just to make it travel down the line. I have gone to retirement homes that everything was as good as it could be but the lines just didn't flow what was flushed.


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## 1929chrysler (Jul 10, 2012)

Redwood said:


> And some Einstein may have come along and put 1.6 gpf flushometer kits on a 3.5 gpf toilet...


Good point. How can I tell what kit is in? Markings? Color coded? GPF stamped somewhere? And like I mentioned before, I don't see anything on the toilet telling me what the GPF is. Is there any way to tell? Do you see any issues with me putting a 3.5 kit in a 1.6?


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## 1929chrysler (Jul 10, 2012)

Cuda said:


> Exactly! Plus old folks homes have problems anyway because what is flushed is usually like the consistency of oatmeal and needs the water just to make it travel down the line. I have gone to retirement homes that everything was as good as it could be but the lines just didn't flow what was flushed.


Do you have any permanent solutions for these customers? Water closet recommendations? Pressure assisted?


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

I only do drains so I tell them to get their plumber to install the most water flowing fixture they can and if they still have issues we can descale the cast iron lines to remove any resistance.


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## 1929chrysler (Jul 10, 2012)

Cuda said:


> I only do drains so I tell them to get their plumber to install the most water flowing fixture they can and if they still have issues we can descale the cast iron lines to remove any resistance.


Or sell them on a nice preventive maintenance jetting schedule...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

1929chrysler said:


> Good point. How can I tell what kit is in? Markings? Color coded? GPF stamped somewhere? And like I mentioned before, I don't see anything on the toilet telling me what the GPF is. Is there any way to tell? Do you see any issues with me putting a 3.5 kit in a 1.6?


A 1.6 gpf toilet would have a marking near the seat hinge, 3.5's wouldn't have a mark...

I'd start out telling them rebuild all the flushometers...
So you know they are right...
clean out the ports under the rim and the siphon jets on the toilets...
Make sure they are all working good...

Get a camera in the line and check for a rotted out pipe bottom, back pitches and bellies...

Maybe get a jetter and chain flail nozzle in there to descale the cast iron...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Redwood said:


> ...I'd start out telling them rebuild all the flushometers...
> 
> ...clean out the ports under the rim and the siphon jets on the toilets...
> 
> ...


Ditto, ditto, ditto and ditto.

Then be prepared to offer a long term solution of getting rid of the bellied and/or deteriorated cast iron pipe and replace it with PVC. The issue is line carry. The poo is getting out of the toilets so putting in pressure bomb toilets won't solve anything. In fact, it will probably only make things worse since they will have less water. As RW suggested, being certain the old toilets are getting all the water they were designed for is the critical first step.

In the end, all the water in the world ain't going to do a bit of good in crusty cast iron. My bet is that with a camera inspection that is what you will find.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plbgbiz said:


> Ditto, ditto, ditto and ditto.
> 
> Then be prepared to offer a long term solution of getting rid of the bellied and/or deteriorated cast iron pipe and replace it with PVC. The issue is line carry. The poo is getting out of the toilets so putting in pressure bomb toilets won't solve anything. In fact, it will probably only make things worse since they will have less water. As RW suggested, being certain the old toilets are getting all the water they were designed for is the critical first step.
> 
> In the end, all the water in the world ain't going to do a bit of good in crusty cast iron. My bet is that with a camera inspection that is what you will find.


First thing I would do is put a good fair amount of wipes/toilet paper in 3-4 toilets and have3-4people flush the toilets at the same time and see if there is enough water volume to serve these water sucking flush valves.i have seen where not enough volume would cause this to happen as you have described.


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