# failed pex not rehau pex



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww175/Waxsealer/failedpexpipe.jpg
Its rehau pex and its dated 8-20-03. it has a split in the pipe running with the pipe about 1/8" long. It was spraying inside a wall. I plan to cut the bad spot out and pump it up to 250psi and see what happens. Here we go!!!!


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww175/Waxsealer/failedpexpipe.jpg
> Its rehau pex and its dated 8-20-03. it has a split in the pipe running with the pipe about 1/8" long. It was spraying inside a wall. I plan to cut the bad spot out and pump it up to 250psi and see what happens. Here we go!!!!


Ok I cut a short piece of the pex off and tested a portion with no leaks and its holding at 325 psi as we speek.....I'm going to leave it pressurized for a few hours...the homeowner is freaking out!!!!!!:laughing:http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww175/Waxsealer/350psitestonpex001.jpg


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Are you sure that not Zurn Pex, I always thought Rehau Pex was clear.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Are you sure that not Zurn Pex, I always thought Rehau Pex was clear.


 Its rehau...they made both.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I always use the clear pex, move flexible.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> I always use the clear pex, move flexible.


 The red is suppose to have alittle uv protection for a short time.


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## cajunplumberjoe (Mar 26, 2009)

ok. you guys are scaring me. we just bought the zurn pex crimp tools and fittings today to start using tomorrow. do i need to rethink this yet again....................


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww175/Waxsealer/500psipextest003.jpg
Ok I decided to pump it up to 500 psi......its holding fine. Look at the pipe swollen at the pex rings!!!!! Looks like I cant pop it with my equipment. I have a good friend with a 30,000 psi test pump...I will give to him and see what it will hold before failing.


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## cajunplumberjoe (Mar 26, 2009)

i'm still scared..................


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

It is all isolated incidents, make the jump.


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## cajunplumberjoe (Mar 26, 2009)

i will try it ,,,but i will lose sleep at night wondering if that will happen to me on a 2 story million dollar house on an upstairs bathroom. i'm not trying to be a dinosaur but up until 20 minutes ago i was fired up for pex. did he mention how long the pipe had been in service?whats the manufacturers warranty in cases like this?


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Don't loose sleep over it, I have been installing pex for long time here, and there has been no problems to speak of.

Pex has been in Europe long before it hit the states. 

Warranty is at 25 years.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

cajunplumberjoe said:


> i will try it ,,,but i will lose sleep at night wondering if that will happen to me on a 2 story million dollar house on an upstairs bathroom. i'm not trying to be a dinosaur but up until 20 minutes ago i was fired up for pex. did he mention how long the pipe had been in service?whats the manufacturers warranty in cases like this?


I'm not sure of the warranty. The pipe was installed in late 2003 and he has the receipt. He's not going to do any warranty claims...hes not that type. he would just tell me to rip it out. if it leaks again he will have me rip it out. This guy won a million dollars playing in a video poker tourny @ harrahs in new orleans!!!! he dont giva crap!!!!!:laughing: RIP IT OUT AND SEND ME A BILL!!!!


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## cajunplumberjoe (Mar 26, 2009)

thanks ron i feel better.


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## kellybhutchings (Jul 29, 2008)

I used copper on a slab house when I first started, some of the fittings felt a little too loose but I soldered them and thay held for about a two years and then a few of them sprung leaks. Problem can happen with any product.


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## cajunplumberjoe (Mar 26, 2009)

i know you can have a bad batch of anything but, on the same day i bought the stuff i see this post and i freaked. but i have also had problems with copper splitting too .just very rare.


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

Something is weird. Rehau PEX is clear. It may have a red or blue coating on it, but it is clear.

That's not even the color of any of the Rehau I have ever seen. (Of course, I have only seen tens of thousands of feet of the stuff, not millions of feet.)

Now the piece around the bend in the first picture? That is the color of Rehau. The leaking piece looks like that stuff Lowe's sold. But forget the color. That first picture looks like a solid color PEX. Rehau is clear with a red coating.

Or am I not seeing something right here?

PS. I ain't busting on ya Master. Just talking about what it looks like to me in hopes you will check on it and provide close ups or explanation.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

22rifle said:


> Something is weird. Rehau PEX is clear. It may have a red or blue coating on it, but it is clear.
> 
> That's not even the color of any of the Rehau I have ever seen. (Of course, I have only seen tens of thousands of feet of the stuff, not millions of feet.)
> 
> ...


 No busting......and I did some more checking and I believe you and ron the plumber are correct...its not rehau. its nibco dura-pex. I called the H.O and he confirmed that every other piece of pipe that he can find says rehau on it......But the piece i took out from joint to joint didn't say rehau on it that was bad. It only had the letters "Ra pex" on the pipe with its certifications and press. temp ratings. I guess the guy had a scrap piece of dura pex and used it!!! It was bad for sure. I kinda wish it was all bad.....i love re-pipes!!! Glad you guys questioned it...so i can bad mouth the right people. i think it will all fail like that in time......be on the look out for small splits!!!!!


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I wonder wtf is wrong with it......I cut it and hooked the portion up that didn't have the leak and eventually pegged out my gauge at 600 psi and held it for 3 or 4 minutes. I'm still going to find the failure pressure and see what fails 1st the joints or the pipe. 30,000 psi should do it. Its an air driven hydraulic pump test chamber.


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> No busting......and I did some more checking and I believe you and ron the plumber are correct...its not rehau. its nibco dura-pex. I called the H.O and he confirmed that every other piece of pipe that he can find says rehau on it......But the piece i took out from joint to joint didn't say rehau on it that was bad. It only had the letters "Ra pex" on the pipe with its certifications and press. temp ratings. I guess the guy had a scrap piece of dura pex and used it!!! It was bad for sure. I kinda wish it was all bad.....i love re-pipes!!! Glad you guys questioned it...so i can bad mouth the right people. i think it will all fail like that in time......be on the look out for small splits!!!!!


Dura-Pex! That's what I was trying to think of.

I can tell you what happened. He ran out of Rehau and ran to Lowe's and bought some. You wanna bet i ain't right?

I did it once. But i put the piece in a place I could replace it when I trimmed out and I did replace it. but I got inspection on schedule.

Much as I like some brands of PEX and trust them, I dislike others and am convinced they will hurt us all. Dura-Pex is one of those I dislike.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

22rifle said:


> Dura-Pex! That's what I was trying to think of.
> 
> I can tell you what happened. He ran out of Rehau and ran to Lowe's and bought some. You wanna bet i ain't right?
> 
> ...


 We had a dealer here that sold nibco dura pex so i dunno. maybe lowes sold it too. Lowes are like gas stations around here...on every other corner. literallly is every area of town. i dont have a big problem with lowes...I dont buy plumbing there but they have some cool tools!!!!:thumbsup:


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I renamed the thread so the search engines won't show Rehau as a problem pipe.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> I renamed the thread so the search engines won't show Rehau as a problem pipe.


I called the H.O and asked him if anything has been done to his plumbing like adding a valve or device of some type recently. He tells me the city replaced his water meter about 3 weeks ago. they are installing check valves aslo!!!!!!! This guy has no expansion tank on his water heater after I asked him to check for me. Most homes here do not have check valves at the meters...they are open systems. No prv's either. new water heaters get the exspansion tanks but the old tanks are grandfathered in. The city failed to sen him a letter or he threw it away like a dummy to get an expansion tank installed. Everytime I call this guy he gives me more info!!!! This was rush in and rush out during the H.O's lunch break emergency today call. I'll be going back tomm. and do some more checking around and add the tank. may have been why it failed...who knows. It held 500 psi for over an hr. so i dunno:laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

CPI DuraPex has had some splitting problems just like what you show...
CPI was bought out by Nibco, but, Nibco assumed no liability for the CPI product.
Chubb Ins. Group who is Nibco's Product Liability Ins. Co. is denying all claims against CPI DuraPex. 

This is one of the not so good PEX Orphans that Roast Duck talks about.

This is a link to Terry Loves Forum where I first saw the problem a little over a year ago...

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?p=140003#post140003

This in my knowledge is the first actual failure of PEX tubing that I know of.
All other failures to date have been fitting failures.


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

UPONOR.

'nuff said


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I to have seen a durapex leak. I had one about 2 years ago in davenport Fl. It's rare, but it happens. I think that they don't have enough anti oxidents in there pipe. The leak was on the hot line coming out of the water heater. The HO had installed a recirc system and the heater was turned all the way up and the water was at 3ppm chlorine. Really bad combo.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I got a bad few bad pieces of zurn pex over the years. One had a small high desity polyethylene pellet in the tube(prolly fell into the extruder). I also got a piece once that had dimples in it. I sent both back and they gave my a whole bundle of pipe for free.



Redwood said:


> CPI DuraPex has had some splitting problems just like what you show...
> CPI was bought out by Nibco, but, Nibco assumed no liability for the CPI product.
> Chubb Ins. Group who is Nibco's Product Liability Ins. Co. is denying all claims against CPI DuraPex.
> 
> ...


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

uaplumber said:


> UPONOR.
> 
> 'nuff said




I'm still using Viega but I'm making the switch back to Uponor when my stock runs low. The Viega fittings just got expensive. Plus I got the newer version of the Uponor Propex 150 deluxe battery expander kit on the way for only $389.00 from my Ferguson rep.:thumbup:
I started out using the wirsbo when it first came out in the states and it's going to take a little getting used to using it again after using the viega.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

uaplumber said:


> UPONOR.
> 
> 'nuff said


Shall we talk about the leaking Uponor/Wirsbo fittings I pulled out of a house a couple of weeks ago? 

Granted they were over 15 years old on a well system before the acid neutralizer with 6.5 PH...:whistling2:

Plastic fittings in there now....:thumbup:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I also got a 90 once that had a casting defect in it. the fitting started hissing air when we air tested. It had a little hole in the side of it. Maybe some sand in the mold?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

15 years with that ph aint bad.



Redwood said:


> Shall we talk about the leaking Uponor/Wirsbo fittings I pulled out of a house a couple of weeks ago?
> 
> Granted they were over 15 years old on a well system before the acid neutralizer with 6.5 PH...:whistling2:
> 
> Plastic fittings in there now....:thumbup:


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Shall we talk about the leaking Uponor/Wirsbo fittings I pulled out of a house a couple of weeks ago?
> 
> Granted they were over 15 years old on a well system before the acid neutralizer with 6.5 PH...:whistling2:
> 
> Plastic fittings in there now....:thumbup:



I was just reading the Uponor book, I think I'm going with all EP fittings. The only brass fittings I'll have to use are the transition fittings.


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

I se do like the EP plastic fittings.
I was unsure at first, but the factory tour will sell ya.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

uaplumber said:


> I se do like the EP plastic fittings.
> I was unsure at first, but the factory tour will sell ya.



Thanks that's good to hear!:thumbsup:


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Isn't the plant right here in MN? Apple Valley? That's only a few hours from here, maybe I should make the trip.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I replaced a piece of 1/2" dura-pex in a ceiling a few years ago with the exact samething happened. Little hairline splits. I contacted nibco and they said mail them the pipe and they will test it. If they find its not defective you will have to pay to have them return it to you. This was in the drop ceiling of a daycare and the water temp was 110-120 degrees because they didn't need hot water just warm. Ok I went to the daycare when the closed on friday and installed a gauge with 2 needles that will measure the highest pressure reached over the period of time you leave it on.....however you must also make sure all possible sources for fixtures coming on and off causing water hammer.....like an ice maker or leaking toilet with a fluidmaster....this water hammer will give you a false reading. We did that to test the pressure and make sure we were not getting surges. No surges...the hiest it ever got was 75 psi in a 48 hr period.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Protech said:


> 15 years with that ph aint bad.


I agree.
When I originally did the job the customer knew that it wouldn't last forever.
But it was going to be a helluva lot better than the copper.
The Acid Neutralizer actually saved the copper in the rest of the house without a complete repipe.
At the time I did the work I didn't care much for the plastic fittings and discussed the plastic vs brass with the customer.
I think the plastic fittings today are a lot better.


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## TotalPlumber (Sep 30, 2008)

Move confidently toward PEX. I believe these incidents are indeed isolated!

Total


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

I was searching for the Uponor plant and found a picture and a company description, interesting.

* Company Facts *

Formerly known as Wirsbo, the company was founded in 1620 — forging high-quality steel and weapons for the King of Sweden. Wirsbo changed its name to Uponor in 2006. 
Uponor, Inc. is headquartered in Apple Valley, Minn., a suburb of Minneapolis/St. Paul. 
Uponor employs 4,100 employees globally. 
In 2006, Uponor's net sales were 1.157 billion euros, returning an operating profit of 12.4%. Uponor OYJ is listed on the Nordic Exchange in Helsinki, Finland. 
Uponor operates in more than 20 countries throughout the world. Operations are organized into four regions: Uponor North America, Uponor Nordic, Uponor Central Europe and Uponor Europe WES (West, East, South) 
Uponor offers plumbing, heating and fire safety systems for residential and commercial applications featuring PEX-a tubing — the most flexible and dependable tubing on the market. 
Uponor also offers snow and ice melting, turf conditioning and permafrost prevention systems. You can find our systems in major ski resorts as well as several NFL stadiums throughout the United States.


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

Yup, Iron, Apple Valley. They have Hydronic training there. Make a point of going. Well worth the time.


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## tnoisaw (Jun 16, 2009)

I've used Wirsbo and Zurn for many years with no major problems. Gotta love it for crawl spaces.


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## eoin.fewer (Jul 13, 2009)

since i started weve only ever used pex in residental. never any problems. heres the pex we use over here in ireland 
http://www.pipelife.ie/web/ie.nsf/webTop/C7E9A34182A47C098025742F004BBB6B
used with inserts and compression fittings...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Notice that they still use polybutylene over there.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Protech said:


> Notice that they still use polybutylene over there.


 
Why do you think that is?

What are they do different than we did.

Lawsuit??


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Pex has been in Europe long before it hit the states.


 
So was Polybutylene.

Does any remember what the warranty on polybutylene was? I believe it was close to if not more than the warranty on pex is and I am sure if I am wrong someone will let me know.


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## eoin.fewer (Jul 13, 2009)

i think its 25year over here


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Is thepolybutylene the thinner sdr11 over there? does that system use the acytal fittings?


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

The piping appears to be the same that we used over here. We probably treat (chemically) our water differently over here than they do and that is the reason we had problems with the piping (fittings)

http://www.polybutylene-advice.co.uk/


Polybutylene was introduced to the European market for pressure piping applications in the mid 1960s. The legacy of 40 years of successful application in pressurized hot and cold water systems has resulted in Polybutylene being widely recognized today as technically the material of choice for these systems.
In contrast to this success story, Polybutylene suffered a poor reputation in the United States market in the early-mid 90s, with many claims alleging defects in Polybutylene plumbing systems. It became clear that these complaints, to the extent that they were valid at all, centred almost entirely on products made from plastics other than Polybutylene, produced for the manufacture of pipe fittings.

My contentions has always been the acetal fittings that was the major problem. Unless it was Service Blue used for the water service and there was a problem around here with it splitting.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

PEX systems I have seen fail:

Kitec
RTI (Uponor)
Wirsbo (Uponor)
Vanguard
Rehau

I have also seen polybutylene, copper and galvanize fail. The failures in all of the above are generally related to incompatibility with the environment they were installed in.

Mark


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