# Warm to hot water everywhere



## OldPlumber (Aug 4, 2008)

I'm working on a home that has 2 80 gallon w/h's, with recirc systems on both. The hot system is split with 1 heater handling 1 side of the home etc. Even after unplugging both recirc's overnight you still can't get cold water anywhere ? They have AXOR shower valves in all 3 showers, with the master bath having 2 valves in it. Remember these systems are split and independent of each other. What could be causing this problem on both sides of the home ? :blink:


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

You must provide much more detail, if you expect accurate help with this...


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## OldPlumber (Aug 4, 2008)

4 AXOR valves in 3 showers. The master bath is handled by 1 w/h and has 2 valves in it. The other 2 baths have 1 shower valve per bath, and are run off of the other w/h. I mention the brand AXOR because they are mixing valves with integral check valves and I'm suspicious that they may be the culprits. One of the things throwing me off is that the problem is through out the home .. while the hot systems are split. I just called the customer and told him to turn off the recirc pumps again tonight and also to close the ball valves on those lines to isolate those lines and check valves as being part of the problem. What other information might you need ?


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Did they pay the gas bill?

Sorry I misread that post. Backflow somewhere. I take it the cold is not split. If it was a commercial bldg I would say check to see if the mop sink has a splitter that is turned off with the h/c on. Check valve might be stuck, is the recirc a posi system or a loop system?


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## OldPlumber (Aug 4, 2008)

:laughing: Sure .. but that wouldn't affect electric water heaters .. would it :whistling2: ?


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

Are there check valves, what repairs and/or other changes have been done to the system recently, i.e new waterheaters, pumps, etc..
Where are the returns attached back into the system, i.e. cold feeds at top, or bottom at the drain port? How long has this situation been going on? Are you certain the customer is giving accurate information? You know, stuff like this...


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

OldPlumber said:


> :laughing: Sure .. but that wouldn't affect electric water heaters .. would it :whistling2: ?


No gas would not cause more hot water either. Did they run the cold line over the roof?


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## OldPlumber (Aug 4, 2008)

Are there check valves, what repairs and/or other changes have been done to the system recently, i.e new waterheaters, pumps, etc..
Where are the returns attached back into the system, i.e. cold feeds at top, or bottom at the drain port? How long has this situation been going on? Are you certain the customer is giving accurate information? You know, stuff like this...

The heaters were replaced several years ago. There are check valves on both recirc lines that return into the bottom of the heaters (he's going to shut both recirc systems down tonight AND shut the ball valves to isolate that as being part of the problem). Hot and cold piping are on top of the heaters. I replaced both recirc pumps 2 years ago. This problem has been going on for quite awhile now (might be as long as a couple of years, not sure) but has gotten worse over the last few months. It is Arizona so I suspected summer has something to do with it also but not absolute. When the recirc systems are running the problem is worse .. but it still remains, even when it was shut down overnight. He had unplugged both pumps on Sunday night (didn't shut off the ball valves on these lines though), and I was out there yesterday. I also mention the AXOR valves because they have check valves in them also.


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## OldPlumber (Aug 4, 2008)

No gas would not cause more hot water either. Did they run the cold line over the roof?

The home is approximately 20 - 25yrs old and piped in copper. I believe it is all under slab (90-95% sure). Where the heaters are located (in the garage) are roughly 75' away from any of the bathrooms, and there are cathedral ceilings through out the home. The main line comes into the home on the side of the garage about 20' away from the heaters.

Sorry about my initial slightly smart ass comment .. I'm Scottish Irish and a Plumber. A dry sense of humor  is essential !


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

OldPlumber said:


> No gas would not cause more hot water either. Did they run the cold line over the roof?
> 
> The home is approximately 20 - 25yrs old and piped in copper. I believe it is all under slab (90-95% sure). Where the heaters are located (in the garage) are roughly 75' away from any of the bathrooms, and there are cathedral ceilings through out the home. The main line comes into the home on the side of the garage about 20' away from the heaters.
> 
> Sorry about my initial slightly smart ass comment .. I'm Scottish Irish and a Plumber. A dry sense of humor  is essential !



I didn't even know it was a smart [email protected]@ comment:laughing::laughing::laughing: You need to step it up to be considered smart [email protected]@ here. 

I noticed you were in AZ, I would get lots of first summer owners who didn't like how warm the cold water got(through the attic).


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

OldPlumber said:


> I just called the customer and told him to turn off the recirc pumps again tonight and also to close the ball valves on those lines to isolate those lines and check valves as being part of the problem.


 If the HO does what you have asked in this case, and the problem keeps happening, you might then think one or more of the valves would have had to be the "crossover" answer, but think how high the odds are that at least one valve on each "side" of the system, would have had to fail to bring this about.

Recently, after much conversation with HO, found a new Water Meter (with a built in check valve) caused a closed system (which had no expansion tank) caused hot side pressure build up and "bleed-over" on the pressure balance valves.

In most cases, I've found the best solution is to start with the valves
if _*nothing*_ else has been changed. Arrive on the job before anyone baths or showers, remove wall plates and replace parts of any valve body that is warm to the touch. The valve body's temperature should be cold unless hot water has been crossing through the internals.


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## OldPlumber (Aug 4, 2008)

I didn't even know it was a smart [email protected]@ comment:laughing::laughing::laughing: You need to step it up to be considered smart [email protected]@ here. 

I noticed you were in AZ, I would get lots of first summer owners who didn't like how warm the cold water got(through the attic).

I'll see what I can do about improving my smart azzness !

As far as Arizona goes .. yep .. I can't tell you how many customers complain that they can't get any cold water. I ask them if they moved here recently .. yep .. from back east. My typical reply is "Welcome to Arizona" !


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## OldPlumber (Aug 4, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *OldPlumber*  
_I just called the customer and told him to turn off the recirc pumps again tonight and also to close the ball valves on those lines to isolate those lines and check valves as being part of the problem._

If the HO does what you have asked in this case, and the problem keeps happening, you might then think one or more of the valves would have had to be the "crossover" answer, but think how high the odds are that at least one valve on each "side" of the system, would have had to fail to bring this about.

That's one of my concerns and why it's so odd. If he shuts down the recirc pumps and ball valves, I'm leaning towards the integral check valves as the 1st thing to replace.

Recently, after much conversation with HO, found a new Water Meter (with a built in check valve) caused a closed system (which had no expansion tank) caused hot side pressure build up and "bleed-over" on the pressure balance valves.

There are no expansion tanks on these heaters .. now I'm wondering about that too. I did perform a pressure test on incoming line and it's at 60psi.

In most cases, I've found the best solution is to start with the valves
if _*nothing*_ else has been changed. Arrive on the job before anyone baths or showers, remove wall plates and replace parts of any valve body that is warm to the touch. The valve body's temperature should be cold unless hot water has been crossing through the internals.

I'm with you there Dave. I do have concerns because there cartridges are roughly $325 to $375 each installed ! I certainly don't want to run up a tab exceeding $1300 and not have the problem fixed :no: ! My customer would be :furious: ! That's why I'm here asking questions and getting help .. that I Greatly Appreciate ! :thumbup:


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

Ok, incoming pressure 60 psi, but don't assume the reading taken from the cold side will end this part of the questions. Maybe put on one of those
test gauges with a "tell-tale" needle on the HOT side to monitor highest
reading over 24hrs. If you measure hot side pressures in excess of say
85psi, then your shower/tub valves may be failing due to excessive
pressure and not because they are defective or worn out.
I can say with confidence, that the lack of expansion tanks may be
the root cause, and new valve parts, a short term fix of the immediate
problem. Make whatever repairs you must, but suggest the Exp. tank
be installed as part of the LONG TERM SOLUTION.


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## Va. Plumber (Dec 8, 2008)

I ran across the same problem a few months ago with the Axor valves. Replaced checkstops in the shower valves and it fixed everything. A way to test is to remove backplates, run cold water for a while until it cools down, then check temperature of the cold inlet to the shower valves. I use a infrared thermometer and if there is a crossover, you can see the temp rise on the cold side. In my situation, I found 3 checkstops bad out of 5 shower valves. They were all the same age. If one checkstop is bad, I would recommend changing all of them.


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

OldPlumber said:


> I'm working on a home that has 2 80 gallon w/h's, with recirc systems on both. The hot system is split with 1 heater handling 1 side of the home etc. Even after unplugging both recirc's overnight you still can't get cold water anywhere ? They have AXOR shower valves in all 3 showers, with the master bath having 2 valves in it. Remember these systems are split and independent of each other. What could be causing this problem on both sides of the home ? :blink:


UMMMM....you are in Arizona right?...when have we had ice cold water in the summer??


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

What is your average temperature on the cold water side?


I was at a retirement community when I discovered a y connection on the laundry tray faucet and the faucet was left on and controlled by the y connection shutoffs.

I was there to clear a drain line when one of the live ins asked me if I was there to fix her toilet that had hot water. Easy enough to fix.

Look for a cross connection if the water is close to 100 degrees or more.


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## OldPlumber (Aug 4, 2008)

Dave, I talked with the homeowner about expansion tanks and I believe he may want to go with those too.

I ran across the same problem a few months ago with the Axor valves. Replaced checkstops in the shower valves and it fixed everything. A way to test is to remove backplates, run cold water for a while until it cools down, then check temperature of the cold inlet to the shower valves. I use a infrared thermometer and if there is a crossover, you can see the temp rise on the cold side. In my situation, I found 3 checkstops bad out of 5 shower valves. They were all the same age. If one checkstop is bad, I would recommend changing all of them.

I downloaded the AXOR guide and they recommend the same thing. I'll probably go this route to start with.

Thanks for everybody's input on this issue !


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## OldPlumber (Aug 4, 2008)

UMMMM....you are in Arizona right?...when have we had ice cold water in the summer??

Yep .. been here since 1959. The short answer would be never, although the neighborhood off of the 51frw South on 32nd St has remarkably cold water even when it's 118deg ! :thumbup1:


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## OldPlumber (Aug 4, 2008)

Hi Richard, You said ... What is your average temperature on the cold water side?


I was at a retirement community when I discovered a y connection on the laundry tray faucet and the faucet was left on and controlled by the y connection shutoffs.

I was there to clear a drain line when one of the live ins asked me if I was there to fix her toilet that had hot water. Easy enough to fix.

Look for a cross connection if the water is close to 100 degrees or more.

I wish this one were that simple. At this point in time I'm more and more convinced of the check valves in the AXOR shower valves being the root cause of this problem.

I will keep everyone posted on what this one turns out to be the problem.

Some customers are funny .. when I called him to get an update on how things were this morning, he said he hadn't done what I asked him to do last night. Oh well .. more delays on getting his problem resolved because of him :whistling2:


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

I admitted that I had to google for AXOR shower valve as I never seen or heard of that brand... then learned it Hansgrohe/grohe faucet... the most expensive CRAP faucets on the market.. I desiped those faucets... are we on the same topic,right??


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## OldPlumber (Aug 4, 2008)

I admitted that I had to google for AXOR shower valve as I never seen or heard of that brand... then learned it Hansgrohe/grohe faucet... the most expensive CRAP faucets on the market.. I desiped those faucets... are we on the same topic,right??

You are 100% correct on all counts ! I ALWAYS try and talk my remodel customers OUT of buying them !!

Nothing new to report at this moment. I talked with the customer who "wants to think about it" ???? Money isn't the issue for this (long time) customer sooooooo .. perhaps he's getting a second opinion ? We'll see, and I'll keep you guys posted.

Thanks for everybody's help !


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

I had a few complaints similar to this when plumbers reroute water lines through the attic space. Answer around here, wrap the already insulated pipes with r-13 button insulation. 

If a swing check is installed improperly you could be experiencing a gravity recirc. 

If the there was a problem with the checks like in a commercial setting it usually effects that localized area, not the entire system. I would take the water meter apart, install a jumper with a tee, run a piece of pex and get the temp from the source. I was getting 83F water from the water mains here. Solution add ice to the three compartment sinks for the health inspector.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> I admitted that I had to google for AXOR shower valve as I never seen or heard of that brand... then learned it Hansgrohe/grohe faucet... the most expensive CRAP faucets on the market.. I desiped those faucets... are we on the same topic,right??


What's wrong with grohe fixtures? Just curious.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

love2surf927 said:


> What's wrong with grohe fixtures? Just curious.


Ever try to pick up repair parts at your local supplier ?


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Ever try to pick up repair parts at your local supplier ?


I haven't done too much repair on grohe or hansgrohe shower valves but I have done a lot of repair on their faucets. I have a place where I'm at that is not a supply house but they specialize in faucets and shower valves exclusively, sales and repair. They are usually pretty good at getting ahold of repair parts.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

love2surf927 said:


> I haven't done too much repair on grohe or hansgrohe shower valves but I have done a lot of repair on their faucets. I have a place where I'm at that is not a supply house but they specialize in faucets and shower valves exclusively, sales and repair. They are usually pretty good at getting ahold of repair parts.


Around here Grohe parts are hard to come by.
At best they have to be ordered, which means at least two trip for a simple repair.
More often than not the darn parts come in and the are the wrong ones. :furious:


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## OldPlumber (Aug 4, 2008)

Just the check valves (should be standard stock item) are 4 to 6 weeks out unless I want to pay $25.00 for ups shipping for 1 week delivery !

The replacement cartridge for these shower valves have a couple of different ones. If you don't match them up you'll end up with the wrong ones.


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## AndersenPlumbing (Jan 23, 2010)

DesertOkie said:


> If it was a commercial bldg I would say check to see if the mop sink has a splitter that is turned off with the h/c on.


I do maintenance in a nursing home.....Been there too many times!!! They now have check valves on every mop sink!


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

RedRubicon2004 said:


> I do maintenance in a nursing home.....Been there too many times!!! They now have check valves on every mop sink!


You just fixed yourself out of easy money.:laughing:


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

OldPlumber said:


> Just the check valves (should be standard stock item) are 4 to 6 weeks out unless I want to pay $25.00 for ups shipping for 1 week delivery !
> 
> The replacement cartridge for these shower valves have a couple of different ones. If you don't match them up you'll end up with the wrong ones.


Why would you be the one paying that? Simply asking your customer if they want it sooner, if so they have to pay.


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## plumber p (Sep 19, 2010)

You live in Arizona. Could it be that the cold water main to the building is coming in warm due to the outside temp.? Could you isolate both heaters and wait while then test for cold.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Crossed Connection?


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

If the pipes are in the basement, maybe there's a fire down there.....:whistling2:


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## HansgroheTech (Jun 8, 2012)

I would try removing the check valves from the thermostatic mixers to clean them to ensure there is no debris holding them open or other malfunction. You mentioned they are Axor valves. Do you have any model numbers for them? Are they as old as the rest of the home [20-25 yrs]? Was this an issue before you replaced the recirc pumps a couple of years ago? If the valves are completely divided up from the sides of the home I would not suspect the thermostatic mixers. If one of the mixers was the issue it would only be affecting the one side of the home it was on. I would suspect there is something going on with the recirc system but I do want to be sure it is not the thermostat mixers. Feel free to call me at Hansgrohe. 1-800-334-0455. Press 2 for tech and ask for David Scarborough.


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## OldPlumber (Aug 4, 2008)

Hi Guys & Gals,

Sorry I didn't get back. The homeowner and I were in the middle of a conversation when something seemed to interrupt him and he said he'll call me back. That was quite awhile ago .. and having him as a customer for as long as I have .. I know better than to call him back. I did that one time and listened to him for 5 minutes go on and on about "I TOLD You I would Call YOU back" etc etc !

If anything happens from here I'll keep you posted.


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

OldPlumber said:


> I replaced both recirc pumps 2 years ago. This problem has been going on for quite awhile now (might be as long as a couple of years, not sure)


You likely missed something back when you replaced the pumps.

Checks missing or incorrectly installed (direction or location)?

Isolating the recirc(s) will tell you right quick.


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