# Tankless waterheater - Black Soot Problem



## BillGrayslake (Apr 13, 2013)

_Hello All, Im new to this forum and have a question -_

_(my intro was posted, please allow members to comment)

Can anyone comment why is there black soot (or black specks) that could be coming from coming hot water line? Client lives in Chicago area, Eternal Tankless waterheater model GU145S installed December 28 2010 (2.3 years ago).

Background --> Client really likes the unit because it eliminates the cold sandwhich, and it allowed them to install in their air conditioned 4 foot tall crawl space, which could not have been done with a conventional tank based water heater. The Eternal unit actually has a small built-in tank but is under the size limit so it can be ranked as a tankless. However, over time client claims that it produced bursts of "black soot" that stick to the side of the sink and shower making a black dirty ring that must be scrubbed to get off. They say it has become more prevelant over the years since original installation. Under normal useage they rarely see the black soot, but in the instance where they turn on the hot water valve quickly to almost full flow (such as bathtub faucet), a blast of black particles come bursting out (also claim to hear a thud). Upon cycling the water on/off the soot goes away. The problem doesnt happen again for a couple of days, the longer you wait to perform the cycle test, the more black particles will come out when the hot line is cycled.

Unit Failed two days ago --> the Eternal unit failed and was leaking (pouring) large volumes of water. Heavy water sprayed internally to the unit, soaking the electronics board. I noticed the electronic board had some corrosion and rust on some of the resistor or jumper components - which would lead me to believe that this leaking problem was intermittently coming and going possibly causing condensation and corrosion inside the unit. I suspect that the failure was either the heat exchanger or the valve o-ring went bad (manufacturer will not allow further breakdown of the unit). The "HOT WATER TUBE ASSEMBLY", white valve to the right of assy was spraying out the back near the seal. Upon contacting Grand Hall (manufacturer of the Eternal tankless waterheater) regarding the black particles - they would always change the subject, never refering to it, asking about the oringinal installation. Now that the unit failed, they are warranty replacing it with a new unit. However, there is still no acknowledgement of the black particles.

Suspecting FAILED O-RING is cause of black particles --> I read a blog somewhere that made reference to o-ring discintigrating causing black particles. Maybe its possible that the temperature rise from the winter time in chicago caused such extreme conditions that the "HOT WATER TUBE ASSEMBLY" or "HEAT EXCHANGER" was not designed for. According to other installer sources, there are more failures for this Eternal tankless unit in the midwest (IL, MN, MI, IN) region of USA, and very few failures CA, TX, FL, AZ. Sources also say that the newer units have an improvement in the design of the valve that reduces the problem of failure for this device.

Can anyone confirm this problem, and where they think the black soot, black specks, or black particles in the hot water are coming from?

(by the way - Original installer "Imperial Tankless of Mundelien" went out of business the month after this client had the unit installed)._


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

BillGrayslake said:


> Hello All, Im new to this forum and have a question -
> 
> (my intro was posted, please allow members to comment)
> 
> ...


Don't see the full intro.... strike 2


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## Big cheez (Jan 11, 2012)

BillGrayslake said:


> Hello All, Im new to this forum and have a question -
> 
> (my intro was posted, please allow members to comment)
> 
> ...


Hello my name is bill__. I'm from grayslake IL_. I been doing plumbing for ______. Without an intro you can't get any answers. Call a plumber... I might know a few out there that you can pay for there advice


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## BillGrayslake (Apr 13, 2013)

You might actually learn something from my posts and others posts as well. If you read the text you can see that the issue is deeper than a simple carbon filter.


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## BillGrayslake (Apr 13, 2013)

By the way, Im an engineer as well (UW Madison). My plumbing comes from fathers side, and I took it further to be certified.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

BillGrayslake said:


> By the way, Im an engineer as well (UW Madison). My plumbing comes from fathers side, and I took it further to be certified.


Certifed WHAT???


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## BillGrayslake (Apr 13, 2013)

Im beginning to think that your "plumbing zone" is run by a few members. Id suggest you stop cluttering up this thread and allow members to comment. There is a lot to be learned about tankless devices - its more than just plumbing as it incorporates electronics as well as combustion. This is a multifasceted issue that many can benefit if you simply allow the free flowing conversation occur.


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## Big cheez (Jan 11, 2012)

BillGrayslake said:


> By the way, Im an engineer as well (UW Madison). My plumbing comes from fathers side, and I took it further to be certified.


Congratulation your an engineer that has to ask a plumber for advice...I'm certified to with eight years in the trade and before that I owned a company doing remodels and renovations in your area....You seem like the one that needs us to teach you something...I study everyday and there's noting you can teach me about my trade unless your in it...


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

BillGrayslake said:


> Im beginning to think that your "plumbing zone" is run by a few members. Id suggest you stop cluttering up this thread and allow members to comment. There is a lot to be learned about tankless devices - its more than just plumbing as it incorporates electronics as well as combustion. This is a multifasceted issue that many can benefit if you simply allow the free flowing conversation occur.


I'm a "certifed" member here..


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## BillGrayslake (Apr 13, 2013)

Hello BigCheez, Im humbly not experienced in every area. Each person has their strengths and of course weaknesses. If we all knew all the answers then this forum would not be necessary. Purposes of forums like this is to share wisdom (not hoard it). If we are all professionals, then we can learn from one anothers experiences. Im learning new things each day about plumbing, not so much my stronger sides. This question I posted stretches beyond my troubleshooting without taking the thing apart. If anyone has experience in this area, posting a reply may help others. Nowhere have I seen anyone comment on this issue.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

If I were accused of not being a plumber, I would be hopping up and down to state the exact opposite. You have been so accused and yet you brush it aside. This formum is for plumbing pros only and that is strictly enforced. 
If you are not a plumber, this thread will be closed also (like your first one was) and your account will be banned.

The resistance you are encountering will continue until you show some evidence that you are a plumbing professional....


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## Big cheez (Jan 11, 2012)

BillGrayslake said:


> Hello BigCheez, Im humbly not experienced in every area. Each person has their strengths and of course weaknesses. If we all knew all the answers then this forum would not be necessary. Purposes of forums like this is to share wisdom (not hoard it). If we are all professionals, then we can learn from one anothers experiences. Im learning new things each day about plumbing, not so much my stronger sides. This question I posted stretches beyond my troubleshooting without taking the thing apart. If anyone has experience in this area, posting a reply may help others. Nowhere have I seen anyone comment on this issue.


This ain't "Trading Places" or "flip this house" I agree trading ideas is a great idea with-in the trade...you just ain't qualified or certified for are free advice....go watch "bob the builder" if you wanna learn something...other then that call a plumber and pay the service fee...


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> If I were accused of not being a plumber, I would be hopping up and down to state the exact opposite. You have been so accused and yet you brush it aside. This formum is for plumbing pros only and that is strictly enforced.
> If you are not a plumber, this thread will be closed also (like your first one was) and your account will be banned.
> 
> The resistance you are encountering will continue until you show some evidence that you are a plumbing professional....


And the beating will continue til the morales improves..


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

BillGrayslake said:


> Hello BigCheez, Im humbly not experienced in every area. Each person has their strengths and of course weaknesses. If we all knew all the answers then this forum would not be necessary. Purposes of forums like this is to share wisdom (not hoard it). If we are all professionals, then we can learn from one anothers experiences. Im learning new things each day about plumbing, not so much my stronger sides. This question I posted stretches beyond my troubleshooting without taking the thing apart. If anyone has experience in this area, posting a reply may help others. Nowhere have I seen anyone comment on this issue.


So you're NOT a plumber.... just a weekend armchair engineer??


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## Big cheez (Jan 11, 2012)

I guess plumbers never work on the electronics of a tankless water heater lol all those tankless and boiler classes was just to run a hot and a cold pipe to the bottom of the heater...lol you rookie engineer...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Time to flip the Dip Switch....:laughing:


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## Big cheez (Jan 11, 2012)

Last week his water was blue around the same time he dropped them Clorox tablets in the toilet tank...


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

Not a plumber, but may be a engineer.

This could get ugly...
:jester:


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## Big cheez (Jan 11, 2012)

Let me ask you something are the flappers black Inside the toilet...


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

BillGrayslake said:


> By the way, Im an engineer as well (UW Madison). My plumbing comes from fathers side, and I took it further to be certified.


I don't usually join these gangbangs because a lot of posters are posers, but dude.

Engineer?

Sanitary engineer?

Nuclear engineer? 

What?

Most plumbers didn't graduate middle school, much less engineering school.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

PlungerJockey said:


> Not a plumber, but may be a engineer.
> 
> This could get ugly...
> :jester:


And he checked my profile on this site... where's HIS profile so we all can check???


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## Big cheez (Jan 11, 2012)

BillGrayslake said:


> Hello All, Im new to this forum and have a question -
> 
> (my intro was posted, please allow members to comment)
> 
> ...


Look up if "your tab water appears blue"....that's your problem if your flappers are black


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

Plumber said:


> I don't usually join these gangbangs because a lot of posters are posers, but dude.
> 
> Engineer?
> 
> ...


Sure seems like you have a distaste for plumbers, no wonder you cant get a job.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Sure seems like you have a distaste for plumbers, no wonder you cant get a job.


Apparently he wants to project his lack of education on us as well....:no:


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> And he checked my profile on this site... where's HIS profile so we all can check???


I just checked his profile... he's lying....


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## BillGrayslake (Apr 13, 2013)

Hello All - staying focused on the issue: after further review, the problem is likely not the o-ring disintigrating, but rather more likely the following: 
a gas leak in the heat exchanger caused by fracture in the weld. Over time of operation, the black soot builds up from burned exhaust leaking into the water, which eventually comes out, especially unders a sudden pressure change as hot valve is opened. Not so common for the heat exchangers in Eternal to fail like this. Additionally, the white pressure sensor is now being replaced by a brass threaded to prevent the leaks. This hopefully closes out the issue.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

BillGrayslake said:


> Hello All - staying focused on the issue: after further review, the problem is likely not the o-ring disintigrating, but rather more likely the following:
> a gas leak in the heat exchanger caused by fracture in the weld. Over time of operation, the black soot builds up from burned exhaust leaking into the water, which eventually comes out, especially unders a sudden pressure change as hot valve is opened. Not so common for the heat exchangers in Eternal to fail like this. Additionally, the white pressure sensor is now being replaced by a brass threaded to prevent the leaks. This hopefully closes out the issue.


 






See that? You answered your own question without any outside help....glad we could be of assistance......:thumbsup:


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> See that? You answered your own question without any outside help....glad we could be of assistance......:thumbsup:


He's fos... no way exhaust can get into waterside of the unit... as one of universal rule applys here.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> He's fos... no way exhaust can get into waterside of the unit... as one of universal rule applys here.


 







You forgot to insert the sarcasm in my post.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> You forgot to insert the sarcasm in my post.


Ol man here, don't know how!


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

BillGrayslake said:


> Hello BigCheez, Im humbly not experienced in every area. Each person has their strengths and of course weaknesses. If we all knew all the answers then this forum would not be necessary. Purposes of forums like this is to share wisdom (not hoard it). If we are all professionals, then we can learn from one anothers experiences. Im learning new things each day about plumbing, not so much my stronger sides. This question I posted stretches beyond my troubleshooting without taking the thing apart. If anyone has experience in this area, posting a reply may help others. Nowhere have I seen anyone comment on this issue.


If you aren't a plumber, take a hike. It's that simple.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> Ol man here, don't know how!


 






When I read his post about the soot getting into the water I laughed; that's like soot from a residential W/H getting into the water of the tank while it exhausts up through the center of the unit.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Plumber said:


> I don't usually join these gangbangs because a lot of posters are posers, but dude.
> 
> Engineer?
> 
> ...


Wow. Most plumbers I know are fairly intelligent people. After all to get licensed as a master here it's an equivalent to an engineering degree. Couple that with many members experience running a business and it makes for some very smart people. If you have such a low opinion of plumbing it can only be because you don't know very much of it.

Anyone I know who truly understands how plumbing systems work and how to engineer them wouldn't say it's a job for a middle school graduate. Don't project your shortcomings onto everyone else here. Just because it's a huge accomplishment for you to put your shoes on the correct feet every morning doesn't mean anyone else is having the same issues.


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## Big cheez (Jan 11, 2012)

The eternal pressure switch is a piece of shhh.they're replacing all the white pressure switches.. From my understanding there grey and there being replaced with black ones... But what your saying doesn't make sense...show some pics


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

BillGrayslake said:


> Hello All - staying focused on the issue: after further review, the problem is likely not the o-ring disintigrating, but rather more likely the following:
> a gas leak in the heat exchanger caused by fracture in the weld. Over time of operation, the black soot builds up from burned exhaust leaking into the water, which eventually comes out, especially unders a sudden pressure change as hot valve is opened. Not so common for the heat exchangers in Eternal to fail like this. Additionally, the white pressure sensor is now being replaced by a brass threaded to prevent the leaks. This hopefully closes out the issue.


Answer me this there smart guy. What side has more pressure running through it? Gas has 6-11" of W.C. Which is under 1PSI. The water has a positive pressure of at least 20PSI. Wouldn't water leak into the exhaust, instead of gas leaking into the water? You're basically saying there is direct passage of exhaust gas into the potable water. How would that possibly work? Were you sick the day they taught you about pressure differentials in engineering school?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> Answer me this there smart guy. What side has more pressure running through it? Gas has 6-11" of W.C. Which is under 1PSI. The water has a positive pressure of at least 20PSI. Wouldn't water leak into the exhaust, instead of gas leaking into the water. Or were you sick the day they taught you about pressure differentials in engineering school?


Yeap.... my point zaclky on one of the univerisal rule here..


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## Big cheez (Jan 11, 2012)

Mr engineer what comes first the chicken or the egg?


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> Wow. Most plumbers I know are fairly intelligent people. After all to get licensed as a master here it's an equivalent to an engineering degree. Couple that with many members experience running a business and it makes for some very smart people. If you have such a low opinion of plumbing it can only be because you don't know very much of it.
> 
> Anyone I know who truly understands how plumbing systems work and how to engineer them wouldn't say it's a job for a middle school graduate. Don't project your shortcomings onto everyone else here. Just because it's a huge accomplishment for you to put your shoes on the correct feet every morning doesn't mean anyone else is having the same issues.


All depends on where you are located. Many areas have plumbers that are 'Grandfathered' in, and sadly, did not have the plumbing education that you did.

Cannot tell you how many applications that I have seen over the years where the question, "Do you have a High School Diploma?" is answered with GED. It does not necessarily mean they are less intelligent, nor does it mean they are uneducated.

A Master in your area may mean something, but it doesn't mean the same thing everywhere. IMO, it would be nice if the qualifications and education were the same across the U.S. to be considered a Master and/or Journeyman. You have achieved something of which to be very proud, but do know that there are others who can boast the same thing and not even be anywhere close to being in your league. 

Like it or not, you are ELITE!


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

That's what the OP lying about, there's no master plumber liensce in Illinois.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

.........Last call......


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

That'll do it. Enough with the personal insults.....thread closed.


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