# Moen 1225b question...



## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Yesterday I replaced a kitchen faucet cartridge supplied by Moen. Tested it out, hot on the left, cold on the right. Got a text this morning from my customer saying that hot is only warm.

I’ve seen positemp cartridges act as a mixing valve, but not a push pull. 

I’m heading north today to winterize a cabin so I won’t be able to get back there until next week. Any other ideas? Just tell him to order another?


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

Complete coincidence that the water heater element went out after you changed the cartridge? LoL

The 1225 doesn't have a balancing spool in it, so a faulty cartridge shouldn't affect temperature of the hot water.

Could be some crap came through and partially blocked the hot side when you turned the valve back on, so he is mixing mostly cold water? Angle stop washer came off and is blocking the stop outlet partially as well? 

This shouldn't happen, but if that handle kit happens to rotate for some reason, the stem won't turn to the hot side.

The only thing i've ever found with those cartridges themselves was that the stem on one was slightly bent near the bottom. It didn't affect the temperature, it just made it hard to operate and it dripped.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Heard back from him via text. He works from home, on the phone nonstop....

Every other fixture is fine. Hot side has good pressure, little less than cold as usual.

Until I can get back there to do the usual, I’m stumped.


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

I like trying to solve things in my head after talking to somebody on the phone, but what usually happens is that they are unable to accurately represent what is actually happening there.

If what he says is 100% true, then it can't be a blockage, or a water heater issue.

I don't feel that the cartridge is complex enough to cause variations in temperature so the only other thing that makes sense to me now is that maybe the handle kit or the bonnet that holds those pieces together didn't get tightened quite far enough so the operation of the handle isn't "square" to the valve body, which wouldn't allow the handle and the stem to turn fully to the hot side resulting in a lukewarm mixed setting.

Or : What else did he screw around with after you left? :vs_laugh:

It wouldn't hurt to have a spare cartridge on hand just in case there's no possible way anything else is wrong. I just don't see that being it.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

My thoughts exactly. I always have extra cartridges with me, for a price. 

Everything worked when I left. We’ll just have to see.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I had a kitchen moen this week that I had installed a few months ago and the complaint was low cold side pressure. Flushed the line below and had full pressure. Disassembled the whole thing with these new everlast cartridges, replaced everything with new parts and I got full pressure again. Then as I'm testing it out pressure dropped again. So then my valve wouldn't close and I thought it was defective(I bought a 100 of them as they were discontinued and have some leaky ones grr)

Look what I found.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Don't you guys get moen parts? I have a vast collection of parts. I have huge boxes of cartridges, o-rings, various parts, handle extensions when you you see the tub faucet was installed by a taxi driver deep inside the wall.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> I had a kitchen moen this week that I had installed a few months ago and the complaint was low cold side pressure. Flushed the line below and had full pressure. Disassembled the whole thing with these new everlast cartridges, replaced everything with new parts and I got full pressure again. Then as I'm testing it out pressure dropped again. So then my valve wouldn't close and I thought it was defective(I bought a 100 of them as they were discontinued and have some leaky ones grr)
> 
> Look what I found.


If you think that screw drove you nuts. I was with a guy one time when the marble in the cold side check valve fell into the tank. The flow of water would carry it up to the hot outlet and it would block it. Sometimes it happened quick others times it would hardly happen. I was running some hot stuff when he heard the marble clacking around. Could have been a lot mpre difficult to figure out, we got lucky.

As for that moen cartridge I agree with the handle/escutcheon being put on wrong or maybe some debris.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I also had a low pressure tub once, replaced all the parts, blew compressed air etc. Finally I saw a diy had put stops and braided lines leading to the faucet inside the wall and the rubber washers dried out and a chunk would clog the lines.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> I also had a low pressure tub once, replaced all the parts, blew compressed air etc. Finally I saw a diy had put stops and braided lines leading to the faucet inside the wall and the rubber washers dried out and a chunk would clog the lines.



A couple weeks ago I was replacing the seats and washers in an american standard 3 handle tub valve. I took out the hot stem and the washer from the main shutoff was behind it in two pieces.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

On that note, where do you guys order your seats from?


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> On that note, where do you guys order your seats from?


What do you mean by seats?

I send an email to my rep and he sends me what ever I need. I have mucho inventory. Moen=Excellent service!

Delta = SHEIST!!! %$&^#&#K. I buy complete tub/shower faucets on amazon and dismantle them for parts.

I'm trying to order a diverter for another brand and it's been an ordeal, 6 emails to different reps inside the same company! Been exchanging emails with them for 10 days now! Maybe I'm doing all that for nothing/ accent customer.


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

skoronesa said:


> If you think that screw drove you nuts. I was with a guy one time when the marble in the cold side check valve fell into the tank. The flow of water would carry it up to the hot outlet and it would block it. Sometimes it happened quick others times it would hardly happen. I was running some hot stuff when he heard the marble clacking around. Could have been a lot mpre difficult to figure out, we got lucky.
> 
> As for that moen cartridge I agree with the handle/escutcheon being put on wrong or maybe some debris.


Funny enough maybe a year ago I had that "marble" (white plastic ball) travel up through the copper pipe and blocking the hot side of a shower valve. Had there been PEX it would have been stuck at the first 1/2" pipe it got to and it would have been a nightmare trying to figure out what was happening. That ball barely fit inside a 1/2" copper pipe but PEX pipe it did not fit inside of so it's actually not just the PEX fittings that restricts the flow but also the pipe itself. We plumbers seem to see some really odd stuff from time to time.

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

The Dane said:


> Funny enough maybe a year ago I had that "marble" (white plastic ball) travel up through the copper pipe and blocking the hot side of a shower valve. Had there been PEX it would have been stuck at the first 1/2" pipe it got to and it would have been a nightmare trying to figure out what was happening. That ball barely fit inside a 1/2" copper pipe but PEX pipe it did not fit inside of so it's actually not just the PEX fittings that restricts the flow but also the pipe itself. We plumbers seem to see some really odd stuff from time to time.
> 
> Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk



Funny enough a couple weeks after the water heater another one of our guys on a reno who had just put in a new shower valve that had 3/4" copper all the way from the heater had a marble show up at the valve.


I see some really interesting things doing my job. It's one of the reasons I love my job.


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

The Dane said:


> Funny enough maybe a year ago I had that "marble" (white plastic ball) travel up through the copper pipe and blocking the hot side of a shower valve.


From the old water heater nipples eh?


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

Alan said:


> From the old water heater nipples eh?


Yes

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

The Dane said:


> Yes


I wasn't sure because you said plastic. I've found glass ones before, never a plastic one.

Now it's that POS rubber flap that comes loose and clogs crap up.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Alan said:


> I wasn't sure because you said plastic. I've found glass ones before, never a plastic one.
> 
> Now it's that POS rubber flap that comes loose and clogs crap up.





I've only seen/heard of those two marbles but never plastic ones. The two marbles were both crimped into metal nipples, the one I saw in person was a brass nipple.


I have seen the rubber flaps you mention but never heard of them coming loose. Round here we have lots of lime, iron, and sediment so I imagine when they do come loose they usually embed themselves in the sediment at the bottom. 


If you want something really fun to try, take out the anode rod from an old one. Most of them are magnesium around here but I know some are zinc or aluminum alloys depending on where you live. If you get a magnesium one which will be real light and soft, cut off about a 1/2". This will be just small enough that after a couple minutes you can get it to melt and then light on fire with propylene or propane gas. It will burn at 3000f! and will emit lots of uv light so you should wear a welding mask. It's really cool to see and will melt many things including coins. I wouldn't do it on pavement as you might set it on fire. I did it on a thick stainless steel sheet.


You could also shave a bunch of strips off, this would be easier to light. Camp fire starter bars are a ferrocerium "flint" rod on the back of a magnesium bar so old anode rods are a much cheaper(free) source for an easy fire starter.


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

skoronesa said:


> I have seen the rubber flaps you mention but never heard of them coming loose.


I had one come loose in a new home within weeks of the water heater being installed.


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

Curious if you made it back yet. I'm going to have to look at a similar issue tomorrow with a delta tub shower valve i just rebuilt. New ball, new rubber seats, springs, the whole 9 yards, and now the guy says there's only hot or cold, no mixing. I'm going to shart myself if that ball is missing the mixing port or something stupid. :vs_laugh:

I've literally rebuilt probably thousands of these and never had this issue.


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

Alan said:


> Curious if you made it back yet. I'm going to have to look at a similar issue tomorrow with a delta tub shower valve i just rebuilt. New ball, new rubber seats, springs, the whole 9 yards, and now the guy says there's only hot or cold, no mixing. I'm going to shart myself if that ball is missing the mixing port or something stupid. :vs_laugh:
> 
> I've literally rebuilt probably thousands of these and never had this issue.


Just talked to the guy and he wants me to come tomorrow. I explained to him on the phone that these Delta ball units are not that complicated. He is getting hot fully to the left, but any adjustment whatsoever and he is getting cold only. He's got a tankless water heater, so i'm leaning toward a pressure issue on this one too and since it isn't a pressure balanced valve, he's got that scalding hot syndrome.

Only thing bothering me is that everything else in the house works fine. I'm unsure if the other faucets are all hot/cold mixed. The other bathroom has a PB valve.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

If you want something really fun to try, take out the anode rod from an old one. Most of them are magnesium around here but I know some are zinc or aluminum alloys depending on where you live. If you get a magnesium one which will be real light and soft, cut off about a 1/2". This will be just small enough that after a *couple minutes you can get it to melt and then light on fire with propylene or propane gas.* It will burn at 3000f! and will emit lots of uv light so you should wear a welding mask. It's really cool to see and will melt many things including coins. I wouldn't do it on 
pavement as you might set it on fire. I did it on a thick stainless steel sheet.


You could also shave a bunch of strips off, this would be easier to light. Camp fire starter bars are a ferrocerium "flint" rod on the back of a magnesium bar so old anode rods are a much cheaper(free) source for an easy fire starter.[/QUOTE]

I don't know about this underlined above What I do know is this is dangerous stuff. My training in Vo-Tech was not in plumbing but in machine tools. At the end of WWII, aircraft engines were being returned to the states. Certain machinists were bring hurt of killed, when their lathes blew up machining 
magnesium valves from those engines. This was told to us as students in the shop. Fast forward to an air crash of two light planes here in Allentown. Fire department responding to crash site could not put out the fire, seems like a special purple chemical is needed to put out a magnesium fire. BEWARE of this stuff!


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Alan said:


> Curious if you made it back yet. I'm going to have to look at a similar issue tomorrow with a delta tub shower valve i just rebuilt. New ball, new rubber seats, springs, the whole 9 yards, and now the guy says there's only hot or cold, no mixing. I'm going to shart myself if that ball is missing the mixing port or something stupid. :vs_laugh:
> 
> I've literally rebuilt probably thousands of these and never had this issue.


Had him order a new cartridge and complete single handle rebuild kit. The black plastic thingy that the screw goes through was snapped in half, but I got it to work. He’s going to be giving me a call when they get there.

Got another call for a kohler faucet for the future. I hate working on those!

Had a call for a rental yesterday. Extremely low pressure on the hot side! I wonder why...


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

Went and checked the valve and everything is working the way it's supposed to. I've got plenty of hot on the hot side, plenty of cold on the cold side, but when mixing, the cold is overpowering the hot due to the pressure drop through his tankless water heater. After talking more to him he says it's always done this to some extent, but the new parts I put in have exaggerated the problem.

I talked him into installing a pressure balanced valve, so no more having to tell people not to flush the toilet when somebody is showering.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Interesting. I honestly don’t know what kind of heater he has. He says hot is only lukewarm.


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

Alan said:


> Curious if you made it back yet. I'm going to have to look at a similar issue tomorrow with a delta tub shower valve i just rebuilt. New ball, new rubber seats, springs, the whole 9 yards, and now the guy says there's only hot or cold, no mixing. I'm going to shart myself if that ball is missing the mixing port or something stupid. <img src="http://www.plumbingzone.com/images/smilies/vs_laugh.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Vs Laugh" class="inlineimg" />
> 
> I've literally rebuilt probably thousands of these and never had this issue.


years ago m, I had an old lady basically strong arm me into “trying” to fixing her dripping delta kt faucet, after I told her I don’t fix delta because they usually only get worse. she said her dead husband fixed it years ago and it was fine.
I told her I don’t have or carry delta repair parts, well she had the parts in a ziploc...
So I warned her that its most likely not going work, and I’m not repaonsible for what ever the outcome. I stupidly installed the parts and the drip was worse. 
She wasn’t too happy.. 
I told her she needs to replace the faucet. 
She told me I should eat the cost for the new faucet cuz I made her old faucet worse. 
She started to get mad and argue, so I walked out..

The next day her son called freaking out on me, until I told him what happened and that I didn’t charge her, he calmed down. He said she didn’t tell him I didn’t charge her. 
He apologized for her behaviour, and then asked if I’d go back and change the faucet?
I said no. 
Then he asked if I would go back if he pays for the original call, buys a new faucet and pays for the installation, would I go back?
I said no,
He tried one more time. 
Asking if I get her out of the house for the day could you do it? She can be a bit of a handful and he just needed the faucet fixed/changed or he’s gunna have to deal with another plumber and her BS.

In the end, he took her to lunch and shopping, i popped in swapped out the faucet and all was paid for.

The cool thing is, hea been a regular customer of mine for over 15 years and recommmends me all the time. 
His mother passed about 10 years ago, apparently she Had gotten dementia which caused her to act the way she did.

Oh yeah delta sucks.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

@Logtec

We need more stories like yours! I know it's not fun for you but we share the same struggles, we should be the plumber's legion(refering to WW2 halls) swapping war stories.


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

Tango said:


> @Logtec
> 
> We need more stories like yours! I know it's not fun for you but we share the same struggles, we should be the plumber's legion(refering to WW2 halls) swapping war stories.



Nice!
The vets are all moving on, so the reitired plumbers should move in.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

HO with the 1225b kitchen faucet hot issue texted earlier this week saying the parts I told him to order came in. First thing I did was shut off the cold supply to test the hot. Perfect. Left the same cartridge in that I first told him to order. 

Next time I’m there and tell a customer they need to order parts I’m going to take it apart to see if they need anything else. This is a first for me, and I consider it a back call. Charged nothing. I’m sure the referral aspect will pay me back.

Told him to cover the bases. Order another cartridge and a complete handle rebuild kit. This is all I replaced and now it works perfectly. The broken plastic is worse than the first time.


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

OpenSights said:


> HO with the 1225b kitchen faucet hot issue texted earlier this week saying the parts I told him to order came in. First thing I did was shut off the cold supply to test the hot. Perfect. Left the same cartridge in that I first told him to order.
> 
> Next time I’m there and tell a customer they need to order parts I’m going to take it apart to see if they need anything else. This is a first for me, and I consider it a back call. Charged nothing. I’m sure the referral aspect will pay me back.
> 
> Told him to cover the bases. Order another cartridge and a complete handle rebuild kit. This is all I replaced and now it works perfectly. The broken plastic is worse than the first time.


Ah I see, the plastic ring is split so it wasn't holding onto the cartridge. 

I've never been particularly fond of those handle kits moen has. Lots of crappy designs in general for their single handle faucets.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Alan said:


> Ah I see, the plastic ring is split so it wasn't holding onto the cartridge.
> 
> I've never been particularly fond of those handle kits moen has. Lots of crappy designs in general for their single handle faucets.


They definitely could do better, however they are my first recommendation for faucets followed by Delta. 

I had the plastic thing tightened down tight enough to work right.... I’m kinda thinking the wife is hard on the fixture. The husband comes off as a limp noodle.

I will say this, they have the coolest child safety lock I’ve ever seen! It’s a magnet that you put in a certain spot and you can open the door.


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

OpenSights said:


> They definitely could do better, however they are my first recommendation for faucets followed by Delta.
> 
> I had the plastic thing tightened down tight enough to work right.... I’m kinda thinking the wife is hard on the fixture. The husband comes off as a limp noodle.
> 
> I will say this, they have the coolest child safety lock I’ve ever seen! It’s a magnet that you put in a certain spot and you can open the door.


When I was an employee we (my boss and I) made a decision to stop stocking single handle faucets for rental properties. Once we started doing that, there were a lot less broken bullsh*t happening. 

Hindsight, maybe leaving the single handle faucets in and letting them break repeatedly would have been good job security, but I didn't feel like supplying faucets with inferior handle mechanisms was really a great thing.

I am pretty sure I saw one of those magnetic locks installed on a hidden door in a remodel. It was like a closet behind the front door that you didn't really notice because the front door swung into it, but there wasn't a handle so maybe it was just a section of wall that was patched or whatever.... then you put a magnet on the top corner of the trim and the thing opened.


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

OpenSights said:


> HO with the 1225b kitchen faucet hot issue texted earlier this week saying the parts I told him to order came in. First thing I did was shut off the cold supply to test the hot. Perfect. Left the same cartridge in that I first told him to order.
> 
> Next time I’m there and tell a customer they need to order parts I’m going to take it apart to see if they need anything else. This is a first for me, and I consider it a back call. Charged nothing. I’m sure the referral aspect will pay me back.
> 
> Told him to cover the bases. Order another cartridge and a complete handle rebuild kit. This is all I replaced and now it works perfectly. The broken plastic is worse than the first time.



Most issues with this model of Moen is the black plastic ring is usually broken followed up but the parts worn or gummed up over time.

I stock these Moen parts and most Moen parts on my truck, They are free from the supplier. 

I give the customer 2 options:
they can call/order/get the parts themselves, wait for them to arrive and then I’ll come back do the repair and chage them 1/2 a service call to install on top of today’s service call (due today).
Or 
I can fix it now, using my cartridage parts - $30-$60/cartridge or kit..

Then they say, “arnt well Moen parts are free?”
“I say yes they are, for the homeowner, however They are not for me. I have to spend my time, gas and money for the convince of having the parts readily available for you.”

So they can fix it now, or wait a few days or weeks for the parts to come in and pay to have me come back.

90% of the time they just use my parts.

My fav is when they have the parts but can’t get the faucet apart or can’t get it back together..


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

I carry most of the parts too.... but this is the first time out of thousands I’ve seen that black plastic part broken. 

Originally I went there to install a dishwasher and told him to order a cartridge because it was dripping like a SOB! Told him he can buy my cartridge or order one. He decided to call. 

I decided to consider it a back call after finding a second broken part. Lots of business to be had in that neighborhood! Golden egg.


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