# Sewer taps



## PlumberJoeOk (Nov 18, 2013)

A this how everyone else hooks to old clay city mains?


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## PlumberJoeOk (Nov 18, 2013)

plumberjoeok said:


> a this how everyone else hooks to old clay city mains?


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

Depends and your jurisdiction

Saddles are ok to install in certains parts of our city
And other parts we can only tap in to city by wye

I suggest to ask your local authority


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

Also I never used ferncos saddles 
I always go with PVC saddles


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I do not like the flexi-saddles.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Hey biz, is there a gasket or anything to make a good connection between the pvc and clay?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Some saddles now come with a neoprene gasket. It used to just be talcoat.


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## PlumberJoeOk (Nov 18, 2013)

Leach713 said:


> Also I never used ferncos saddles I always go with PVC saddles


PVC saddle on clay? Do u just epoxy the heck out of it ... Rubber on clay is the only thing that inspectors will pass here


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

PlumberJoeOk said:


> PVC saddle on clay? Do u just epoxy the heck out of it ... Rubber on clay is the only thing that inspectors will pass here



Yeah some supply house sell the gasket with saddle 
Or you can do the old trick in the handbook


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

I've never tapped a sewer and so with my growing interest in getting into sewer replacements I guess I better learn how. All sewer work I've done is connecting to a pipe that is already there. It is very likely this spring I will have a need to tap a sewer. 

No matter the saddle used, how do you cut the hole in the pipe, especially if it's clay?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Hoosier Plumber said:


> ...how do you cut the hole in the pipe, especially if it's clay?


Diamond blade on a 5" grinder.


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## incarnatopnh (Feb 1, 2011)

Here you must use a pvc saddle. It must be a wye. Tee saddles are not allowed. We have to tap at 10 or 2 o'clock on the pipe. We cannot tap on the top of the pipe. Also the saddle must be covered in concrete when finished.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Couple more...

Notice the clean and professional use of purple primer. I must say, it is some of my more tidy work. :laughing:


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

We use a product called insert a tee. No bands needed. Works awesome on clay hope or plastic. Core the hole and twist it in. Has an extremely high shear load rating.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

This is what is required in most of the sewer districts in my area.
http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/civicax/filebank/documents/11248/


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

What about tapping a manhole. ?


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> What about tapping a manhole. ?


That would make life so much easier, but no luck in our districts. Wye saddles at the 10 or 2 o'clock positions only. I was having lunch with our districts cross connection coordinator and she mentioned next year they will require the contractors to plug the upstream flow and actually remove a 6' section of clay and replace with clay combination wye as too many contractors are not removing the busted pieces of clay causing stoppages later on and/or causing lateral cracks as they beat the pipe with a hammer. Hope this isn't true as I can see all sorts of requirements that will turn an already $11,000 job into a much more expensive project and possibly only during night hours.


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

These municipal engineers get a little ridiculous. They think they have the answers and don't care to investigate new products. We core manhole quite often and have to vacuum test on many. As for inserting a clay Wye and trying to hunch the pipe in they are going to have way bigger problems then a piece of clay in the pipe. Wouldn't it be easier to have them watch you core it and give them the coupon?


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

bulldozer said:


> These municipal engineers get a little ridiculous. They think they have the answers and don't care to investigate new products. We core manhole quite often and have to vacuum test on many. As for inserting a clay Wye and trying to hunch the pipe in they are going to have way bigger problems then a piece of clay in the pipe. Wouldn't it be easier to have them watch you core it and give them the coupon?


Sure they could, however, it would require that the inspector be onsite continuously or only at the time you are ready to core, the problem in this are is the lack of available inspectors, I believe the district is down to 4 in a district that serves 107,000 connections across 1,000 sq. miles, so I think this move may increase the cost associated with it which is always the case when we have to apply for an interruption of service. That coupled with the fact that if state chromium-6 mcl's are lowered the district will be forced to implement new treatment facilities so I'm sure it's a revenue generating move. And much of the sewer infra structure is just now being updated as part of the 2012 sewer connection mandate, there are still thousands of septic systems in the desert and sewer still isn't in the street so inspectors are already busy just spending the minimum 2 mins on site. Hell they finally wrapped up the main install in just one tiny area and just allowed the homes to be connected, 4,800 homes.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> What about tapping a manhole. ?


By the way, nice work tex-mech maybe I need to show this picture to our inspection supervisor and show him it would work fine!


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

I completely understand what your saying. I work quite often in columbus ohio. They have some of the most rigorous sewer codes in the country. They even test new pipe materials every 6 months and no pipe allowed over 6 months old. I guess what I'm getting at is why isn't more of the liability on the contractors. You put it in you own it. You screw it up and you don't work here no more. That's a shame they can hire more side service goverment workers and not enough sewer inspectors


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

By the way. Really nice work!


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> What about tapping a manhole. ?


Damn that sh*** looks nice 

How did you accomplish that tap?


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> That would make life so much easier, but no luck in our districts. Wye saddles at the 10 or 2 o'clock positions only. I was having lunch with our districts cross connection coordinator and she mentioned next year they will require the contractors to plug the upstream flow and actually remove a 6' section of clay and replace with clay combination wye as too many contractors are not removing the busted pieces of clay causing stoppages later on and/or causing lateral cracks as they beat the pipe with a hammer. Hope this isn't true as I can see all sorts of requirements that will turn an already $11,000 job into a much more expensive project and possibly only during night hours.


Last one we did was a section removal with a wye. They required us to come into the main on a 45° angle from above. It was only after we showed the inspector we didn't have the fall from the yard installed grease interceptor that he allowed us to come straight into his line.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Cored the pit from the outside with a 5" bit on a Hilti machine. Then scored the clay with a diamond blade on my grinder then used a crescent and small ball peen hammer to chip it away. Bit by bit. Then formed non shrink grout to give a smooth channel for the waste


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Cored the pit from the outside with a 5" bit on a Hilti machine. Then scored the clay with a diamond blade on my grinder then used a crescent and small ball peen hammer to chip it away. Bit by bit. Then formed non shrink grout to give a smooth channel for the waste











Good thing your test ball held...whew!...


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

We use inserta tees as well. Far superior to a flex saddle and doesn't cause pressure that could crack the VCT like some rigid saddles.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

SewerRat said:


> We use inserta tees as well. Far superior to a flex saddle and doesn't cause pressure that could crack the VCT like some rigid saddles.


Do they extend inside the pipe causing an obstruction?


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

No. Not at all. We have been using the twist in ones as well.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> Do they extend inside the pipe causing an obstruction?


No. There's a little ridge around the tap on the inside like a gasket. 

A lot of cities around here spec them on sewer projects.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

bulldozer said:


> No. Not at all. We have been using the twist in ones as well.


bulldozer is completely spot on with the inserta tee's , its the best product to come out in awhile. Turns a ****ty job into a piece of cake (http://www.insertatee.com/ ) . If you guys would get the manufacturer involved with getting this submitted to your city engineer you could make life a whole lot easier.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Heres a pic of one.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

Ya, you only have to expose one side of the main, not clear around it. Makes a half day difference in an alley with lots of utilities and a main installed in the 30s laid on solid rock.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> Couple more...
> 
> Notice the clean and professional use of purple primer. I must say, it is some of my more tidy work. :laughing:


Hey Biz, what's with the dresser coupling in the first pic? Pump discharge? Is that 2" pipe?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Letterrip said:


> Hey Biz, what's with the dresser coupling in the first pic? Pump discharge? Is that 2" pipe?


4"

We use them on occasion for a transition from PVC to HDPE on a pipe burst. HDPE has a much higher coefficient rating than PVC so with all that movement I like to be sure it stays together.

With deeper and more critical connections we use Hymax couplings.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

The taping of 10' o clock and 2' o clock was for brick sewers to help keep the integrity of the sewer when tapped. 

Here is the style of tape I like if you can not remove a section of the sewer and install a proper wye. There are a couple of these systems that work really well. Insertatee http://www.insertatee.com/tapping_claypipe.html and the tap-tee-saddle http://www.jointscouplings.com/TapnTeeSaddle.html


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

I use both the PVC Saddles or the Fernco ones. I usually put crushed stone around them both to screws the future plumber who digs it p in the furture...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Will said:


> I use both the PVC Saddles or the Fernco ones. I usually put crushed stone around them both to screws the future plumber who digs it p in the furture...


I love limestone screenings for backfill bedding.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> Couple more...
> 
> Notice the clean and professional use of purple primer. I must say, it is some of my more tidy work. :laughing:


It is so weird to see a 4" dresser on a sewer line. It makes sense but I never thought of using one.


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> It is so weird to see a 4" dresser on a sewer line. It makes sense but I never thought of using one.


It that an legal install? 
Meaning would a plumbing inspector pass that


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Leach713 said:


> It that an legal install?
> Meaning would a plumbing inspector pass that


I am not sure. I've never heard of it being used here. For connecting trenchless pipe it may be acceptable but I would ask an inspector first, obviously.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Leach713 said:


> It that an legal install? Meaning would a plumbing inspector pass that


Why would you think it is illegal?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Leach713 said:


> It that an legal install?
> Meaning would a plumbing inspector pass that











Of course not! Only when Plmg Biz hands the inspector a bottle of booze, THEN it passes...:laughing:


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> Why would you think it is illegal?



That something a hack would do and 
That is NOT A proper drain fitting


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

I see the innovation but i would not use it


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Actually, when I first saw one used on here for the transition from PVC to HPDE pipe, or whatever the abbreviation is, I thought it was a good idea for dealing with the pipe stretching a little during pipe bursting.

The only thing I could see causing a problem would be the small gap between the two pipes that could be created from the pipe shrinking after a burst. But I would imagine it would be minor and it would be worse with a clamp-all being it only covers 3" or so of pipe. Don't knock it til you try it.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Leach713 said:


> That something a hack would do and That is NOT A proper drain fitting


Oh really? :laughing:

Care to share something from your many weeks of experience that shows how water doesn't drain through a coupling rated for pressure? Perhaps an ASTM or ASME standard that the compression coupling fails to comply with?

**stares anxiously at screen waiting to be dazzled**


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## gordyloo (Dec 7, 2013)

Havnt seen it before so it must be wrong. Well that's intelligent.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> Oh really? :laughing:
> 
> Care to share something from your many weeks of experience that shows how water doesn't drain through a coupling rated for pressure? Perhaps an ASTM or ASME standard that the compression coupling fails to comply with?
> 
> **stares anxiously at screen waiting to be dazzled**


Hahaha. **shakes head expressing commiseration**


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> Oh really? :laughing: Care to share something from your many weeks of experience that shows how water doesn't drain through a coupling rated for pressure? Perhaps an ASTM or ASME standard that the compression coupling fails to comply with? **stares anxiously at screen waiting to be dazzled**



Lol


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

Can't get nothing by y'all " old timers "


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> Oh really? :laughing: Care to share something from your many weeks of experience that shows how water doesn't drain through a coupling rated for pressure? Perhaps an ASTM or ASME standard that the compression coupling fails to comply with? **stares anxiously at screen waiting to be dazzled**


Does that fitting creates an obstruction in the inside of the pipe?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Leach713 said:


> Does that fitting creates an obstruction in the inside of the pipe?


Have you never used a dresser coupling? The pipes are butted against each other the same as using a Fernco, Mission, or No-Hub band. 

Except...

It is longer, tighter, withstands pressure testing, not likely to be damaged by a shovel, will not corrode if salt is placed around it, practically eliminates a pipe from pulling out, and will never be deformed by ground movement or roots.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Leach713 said:


> Can't get nothing by y'all " old timers "


Herein lies a major reason why us so-called "old-timers" still have plenty to do in making qualified tradesmen out of apprentices. Note your comment below in a thread dedicated to the almighty Fernco...



Leach713 said:


> ...I don't recommend putting concrete around the ferncos because if it ever fails it will be hell to repair...


Not only are you okay with a Fernco installation that you believe will fail (and yes, I use them also), you also don't want to take steps to make it better if it makes it harder to repair later on. I suggest you find a way to make your repairs last long enough that concern for digging it up is not part of the plan.

Of course every rule has an exception but here's one that will serve you well most of the time....

"Don't cover it up if it won't last till you retire."

Being self employed goes along way to building that view. I have to assume that I will be the one digging it back up if it fails. Otherwise my assumption is I am losing that customer and I never PLAN to lose any customer before I retire.

So...

Do you make the repair so that it is easy to dig up and re-repair, or do you make the repair so that nobody has to dig it up at all?


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> Herein lies a major reason why us so-called "old-timers" still have plenty to do in making qualified tradesmen out of apprentices. Note your comment below in a thread dedicated to the almighty Fernco... Not only are you okay with a Fernco installation that you believe will fail (and yes, I use them also), you also don't want to take steps to make it better if it makes it harder to repair later on. I suggest you find a way to make your repairs last long enough that concern for digging it up is not part of the plan. Of course every rule has an exception but here's one that will serve you well most of the time.... "Don't cover it up if it won't last till you retire." Being self employed goes along way to building that view. I have to assume that I will be the one digging it back up if it fails. Otherwise my assumption is I am losing that customer and I never PLAN to lose any customer before I retire. So... Do you make the repair so that it is easy to dig up and re-repair, or do you make the repair so that nobody has to dig it up at all?


Typical youth thinking. Doing things right is bit taught when kids are young so when they come into the working world they have no concept of doing a job thy lasts. 

This problem is further compounded by many companies only focus on turning an burning with no thought or care beyond a minimal warranted period. 

It's all about the green!!!


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

True about the lesser experienced.

However, I had to be taught as well. When I think of some of the things I thought were good ideas 30+/- years ago, it makes me wonder why my Journeyman, Master, and MizBiz didn't just run me off. 

Not just my technical ignorance, but business ignorance as well.


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> True about the lesser experienced. However, I had to be taught as well. When I think of some of the things I thought were good ideas 30+/- years ago, it makes me wonder why my Journeyman, Master, and MizBiz didn't just run me off. Not just my technical ignorance, but business ignorance as well.


No doubt we all have to be taught. Maybe I am just getting older and think the generation after is worse, but I do believe the facts could support my opinion. 

There is a laziness and a owe it to me attitude in this young generation that makes them less receptive to teaching and training. 

Oh man the stories we could all share about youthful ignorance. Like my breaking of 3 cables in one summer, or the call backs at my lowest times. Lol


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> Herein lies a major reason why us so-called "old-timers" still have plenty to do in making qualified tradesmen out of apprentices. Note your comment below in a thread dedicated to the almighty Fernco... Not only are you okay with a Fernco installation that you believe will fail (and yes, I use them also), you also don't want to take steps to make it better if it makes it harder to repair later on. I suggest you find a way to make your repairs last long enough that concern for digging it up is not part of the plan. Of course every rule has an exception but here's one that will serve you well most of the time.... "Don't cover it up if it won't last till you retire." Being self employed goes along way to building that view. I have to assume that I will be the one digging it back up if it fails. Otherwise my assumption is I am losing that customer and I never PLAN to lose any customer before I retire. So... Do you make the repair so that it is easy to dig up and re-repair, or do you make the repair so that nobody has to dig it up at all?



No I actually like to make a repair that will last 
And I am NOT ok with with ferncos if I ever had to use a band because there's no choice then ,that I would use a clamp all band (shielded coupling) and even a shield coupling is not good 
I have been taught to always hard pipe where possible and Make It Right the FIRST Time


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

Lol if I have to used one I'll have to!


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## gordyloo (Dec 7, 2013)

Leach713 said:


> Lol if I have to used one I'll have to!


You might wat to quit calling other people hacks. LOL


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Leach713 said:


> Lol if I have to used one I'll have to!


You definitely shouldn't say anything to anybody when you are using NOHUB bands in the ground when they are clearly made to be used above ground ONLY.


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

Gotta do what u go to do
Supplies house are close and lowes is the nearest one


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Leach713 said:


> Gotta do what u go to do
> Supplies house are close and lowes is the nearest one


Sounds like a HaCk to me.:yes:


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

justme said:


> Sounds like a HaCk to me.:yes:


Lol


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

That bedding looks a little thin


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Leach713 said:


> Lol if I have to used one I'll have to!


What a sloppy a** purple primer job!


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> What a sloppy a** purple primer job![/QUOTE
> 
> Hah
> Can't see it from my house


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## TerryO (Oct 12, 2012)

Seems a little "oxymoron-ish" that a 2nd year apprentice can be a senior member. Sigh.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TerryO said:


> Seems a little "oxymoron-ish" that a 2nd year apprentice can be a senior member. Sigh.


Who are you refering to??


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## TerryO (Oct 12, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Who are you refering to??


Check Leach713's profile.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

TerryO said:


> Seems a little "oxymoron-ish" that a 2nd year apprentice can be a senior member. Sigh.


Members can type their own subtitles. The Senior title is just a matter of making a few posts. It has nothing to do with anyone's trade abilities.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Can I type someone else's subtitles? I have a few for RJ


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

We use the inserta-tee also they are great when running a pvc pipe to a storm water system made out of corrugated HDPE to join the 2 different style of pipes.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

I thought senior member meant they were a senior citizen.


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