# Just saved them $40,000



## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

Got a call for a second opinion on a sewer line issue yesterday. I come out today and find the front yard and the basement concrete have been dug up. 

Apparently the first company that came out got their equipment stuck in the line. Second company couldn't get through either so they recommend replacing all the plumbing from the basement to the sidewalk. Once they dug it up they found the clog was farther out, in the street, and they still couldn't get through. They tell the elderly customer it will be $40,000 more to go all the way to the tap. Mind you they've already charged $30,000 to do what they've done so far.

Finally the kids get involved and get me out there. 

It took me less than 45 minutes to get the line open using my drill. That includes setup time. It was just a wipes blockage at 60 feet out. No roots, bellies nor broken pipe, as confirmed with my video inspection. 

I really hope the reason they didn't unclog it was just incompetence and not something more nefarious. As we know the elderly are a group of people that get taken advantage of far too often.

The funny thing is the guys, from that big company which shall remain nameless due to what I suspect will be court proceedings, pulled up as I was packing up. They were incredulous that I unclogged the line with a drill after they spent hours using a k-60, k-1500 and k-7500. It's not the size of your tool, it's how you use it, haha.

I ended up getting a slice of homemade apple pie and a customer for life.


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

Forgot the pictures.


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## MASTRPLUMB (Mar 22, 2019)

So was replacing all that cast iron really necessary ?


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

MASTRPLUMB said:


> So was replacing all that cast iron really necessary ?


 Unfortunately there's no way for me to know now. When I arrived it was all piled up as you see in the pictures and the homeowner did not receive a video of what the line looked like before the excavation. Who knows if the pipe was broken or had roots? Not to mention that the line was clogged so even if they did a video inspection I doubt they saw anything. 

When I looked inside I saw scale buildup that one would expect in a 60 year old pipe but nothing that could not be salvaged with jetting or flexshaft. I've descaled pipes in much worse condition.


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

Also, in this area, when these houses sell they're usually torn down to build million plus dollar homes. The main sewer line is replaced or descaled at that time because the county requires it. So all that work done inside will be for nothing.

The homeowner is 90 and his wife is in hospice so they doubt they'll be in the home for more than a year. 

Hopefully that company does the right thing for the customer.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

hopefully they didnt pay anything yet and dont pay anything...30k for what??? sounds like a scam was in motion...at 90 I would tell the company to go scratch for the money and see you in court...


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> hopefully they didnt pay anything yet and dont pay anything...30k for what??? sounds like a scam was in motion...at 90 I would tell the company to go scratch for the money and see you in court...


 My bad, that was a typo. It was actually only 20k. That's what the homeowner and son said they were charging for replacing the sewer in the front yard and under the basement slab. 

I don't know if it was a scam or if they genuinely tried their best to get the line open and failed. The plumber I spoke to seemed sincere when he was telling me everything they tried and when he was telling me how much experience they had between both of them. I'm 34 so I'm guessing I'm about half the age of the older one who showed up.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Profit imo is not a dirty word but companies like that really piss me off. I get called in on too many 2nd opinions and see this alot. Good job VA


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## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

Great job.. I've been In your shoes on jobs like that many times... 

We are a city contractor and deal with that quite a bit... even if a line is collapsed usually you can get them to drain.. and get a shot of broken pipe.. awesome job again... did you make your drill adaptor or did you buy it


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

Venomthirst said:


> Great job.. I've been In your shoes on jobs like that many times...
> 
> We are a city contractor and deal with that quite a bit... even if a line is collapsed usually you can get them to drain.. and get a shot of broken pipe.. awesome job again... did you make your drill adaptor or did you buy it


 I made mine by taking the male end off a cable then ground off the threads so the Chuck would catch on it.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> Got a call for a second opinion on a sewer line issue yesterday. I come out today and find the front yard and the basement concrete have been dug up.
> 
> Apparently the first company that came out got their equipment stuck in the line. Second company couldn't get through either so they recommend replacing all the plumbing from the basement to the sidewalk. Once they dug it up they found the clog was farther out, in the street, and they still couldn't get through. They tell the elderly customer it will be $40,000 more to go all the way to the tap. Mind you they've already charged $30,000 to do what they've done so far.
> 
> ...


I don't charge near enough for what we do,20,000.00 for that?? How where they gonna replace the house drain under the slab???


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

They charged $20,000 to break up the concrete slab to replace the drain lines underground and to dig up the front yard. I didn't get any pictures of the inside work. 
Around here $20,000 would be about the going rate to do all that. I just don't think it was necessary since the main issue was that the line was clogged out by the county tap.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> They charged $20,000 to break up the concrete slab to replace the drain lines underground and to dig up the front yard. I didn't get any pictures of the inside work.
> Around here $20,000 would be about the going rate to do all that. I just don't think it was necessary since the main issue was that the line was clogged out by the county tap.


Ok,that makes more sense,I did not see the part about busting up inside slab and redoing plumbing,thanks for the info


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

I know you feel like the hero having unclogged it, but honestly with how bad that pipe looks and the fact you say they were charging a fair price replacing that pipe may very well have been the best decision.












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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> I know you feel like the hero having unclogged it, but honestly with how bad that pipe looks and the fact you say they were charging a fair price replacing that pipe may very well have been the best decision.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really? They were about to charge them $40,000 more to dig up the line in the street simply because they couldn't unclog it. So a total of $60,000 for replacing a sewer line which most likely could have been reconditioned with a miller or jetter for a fraction of that price. The pipe under the street is the same age and looked fine, it could probably benefit from an hour of jetting but nothing major.

The pipe probably looks worse in the pictures because they broke it into pieces to remove it. I looked inside and it was definitely salvageable assuming it wasn't broken before they arrived. 

That's not even taking into account how much they also have to spend redoing their bathroom, flooring and landscaping. They probably would have been getting into the $80,000 range all in just because a couple guys could not get the line flowing. 

Trust me, I'm not trying to make myself out as some hero as you say. I just don't like when companies take advantage of people just because they don't know better. I'd have no problem if they charged double what they were charging- if it was actually needed. Nothing the technician told me when we spoke lead me to believe it was needed. They kept getting stuck at the same spot where I hit the blockage.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> Really? They were about to charge them $40,000 more to dig up the line in the street simply because they couldn't unclog it. So a total of $60,000 for replacing a sewer line which most likely could have been reconditioned with a miller or jetter for a fraction of that price. The pipe under the street is the same age and looked fine, it could probably benefit from an hour of jetting but nothing major.
> 
> The pipe probably looks worse in the pictures because they broke it into pieces to remove it. I looked inside and it was definitely salvageable assuming it wasn't broken before they arrived.
> 
> ...







WOAH WOAH slow your roll. I apologize. I WAS WRONG. 



I didn't read all the posts thoroughly, just saw you chastising them and then you saying how replacing this old line cost about $20k and that it seemed reasonable.


Yes, I agree, You did appear to save them $40k. That said I think the $20k spent replacing the main line from the sidewalk back in was also worth it although that still seems a bit high to me.












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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

Haha, I wasn't upset at you skoronesa. I was more surprised you didn't find issues with what they did when you usually seem to be a proponent of salvage vs replacement when possible and being fair to the customer.

If it had been just the front yard that got excavated I'd say ok, should have tried other options first but most likely the new owners would need to replace that anyway. The problem is with the inside. There is a 99.9999 percent chance that when this house sells it will be promptly torn down and the work inside will be for naught. In their neighborhood the value is in the location. I've seen them tear down impeccably maintained houses just to build multi-million dollar houses. With Amazon coming to the area that trend won't slow down. I could walk to 3 houses under construction just down the street from them. 

Assuming the front yard needed to be done eventually, is that extra $15,000+ they're spending on the inside going to bankrupt them? I'm guessing not but that's money they probably didn't need to spend and could have put to better use. And with one of the owners in hospice I'm sure they have better things to do than deal with the construction workers in their basement.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> Haha, I wasn't upset at you skoronesa. I was more surprised you didn't find issues with what they did when you usually seem to be a proponent of salvage vs replacement when possible and being fair to the customer......





What makes you think I am a proponent of salvaging old lines? I snake'em, I would like to think I can remain impartial. I just do the math. How often do they call me to snake it and what does that cost them over the course of time they plan to remain in the home versus the cost of replacement.


I have many customers who call me once or twice a year to snake because the cost of replacement is high. Others get some roots in a line two feet down and make the decision to dig it up. What I am not for is people who buy a house, plan to be there 20+years, and then want to leave the old line with roots growing in. Calling me once a year for 20 years just seems ridiculous, but yet I still have customers from when I first started that I continue to snake to this day.


I find it ironic we are on this subject. My last call today, which took more than half a day, is this very old inn. The line is at least 100 years old, 4", cast iron. Today it pretty much gave up the ghost. I have snaked the main and it's branches several times a year for the past 6ish years since it reopened after the recession ended. I have replaced a good bit too. Well today I couldn't get it with the snake and the jetter we called in couldn't quite get it fully either. The camera revealed a chunk of pipe wall sitting on the bottom. The pipe has broke good and fill from the foundation is coming in. We will likely put in sewage pumps and reroute some lines.



Lastly, I am always as fair to the customer as I can be.










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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

I meant that you're usually talking about saving old fixtures if possible, you like buying old tools and I think you're the one who restored an old toolbox. I didn't necessarily mean saving old pipes that have failed. 

I will also recommend replacement if I believe the pipe will be an ongoing problem. But if I think a cheaper option, such as jetting or milling, will also work then I'll present all options. 

I'm doing a job Monday where another big company recommended milling, jetting, digging and pipe lining the sewer line. Not individual options either. They want to do all at once. I asked the homeowner to send me a copy of the video and I saw some scale buildup near the end but not much else. The video they sent me included the whole spiel the technician presented to get the job. Nothing but scare tactics.

From what the owners of the wipes job told me they've only had one clog before in decades of living there. That was caused by wipes and it was around the time the in-house nurses started. This second time was also caused by wipes. The homeowner nor the other plumbers ever mentioned pulling out roots or mud from the line. They didn't mention the cable getting hung up anywhere between the house and sidewalk, only at the street. I can only come to an educated guess that the line under the house and yard was probably fine.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

KIYATGI22 said:


> I really hope the reason they didn't unclog it was just incompetence and not something more nefarious. As we know the elderly are a group of people that get taken advantage of far too often.



and who are you? some handi hack surfing the web on a sunday...


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

KIYATGI22 said:


> I really hope the reason they didn't unclog it was just incompetence and not something more nefarious. As we know the elderly are a group of people that get taken advantage of far too often.



You will need to fill in an introduction, you have the afternoon do so, if not your posts will be deleted and quite possibly your account too. :


Are you an employee, journeyman, business owner?

Tell us if you had to go to trade school. How long?

How many hours or steps(1/2/3/4) before you become a journeyman?

What trade certificate do you have, plumbing, gas, oil, pipe fitter etc? How did you get them, exams, courses, or free in a cracker jack box?

What about your recent jobs, describe what you actually do and what type of building : houses, high rises, commercial building, oil refineries, paper mills etc.

Tell us about you, funny stories, horror stories.

https://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> I meant that you're usually talking about saving old fixtures if possible, you like buying old tools and I think you're the one who restored an old toolbox. I didn't necessarily mean saving old pipes that have failed.
> ........


The toolbox was a personal project.


Yeah, you are correct I prefer to save old stuff if I can but only when it makes sense for the customer.


Rebuilding old toilets is great of the porcelain is good and I usually do one or two a month. Otherwise I would leave, having charged them an hour minimum for just looking at it, then the next call coming back with the new toilet would be like 1-1/2 to 2hrs. If I rebuild it I can keep it at 1-1/2 or sometimes one. Changing the stop would push it to 2. And they get to keep a great working high flush toilet that probably matches the other fixtures too.


Resurfacing integral faucet seats or changing replaceable seats along with the stem or washer is also a huge time saver and again they keep an old quality item that will flow more if need be. 



Both of those operations have been done for decades.


Post war cast iron on the other hand is a whole nother ball o wax. That stuff is garbage and the sooner it gets changed the better. Prices only go up everyday the homeowner waits. Around here if you're on town sewer/water you can get an insurance policy for ~100$/year that will cover replacement of the buried line. Rarely is the line a straight shot , even more rare is the line going to a man hole. Both of these scenarios mean pipe bursting or lining is not really any better than just digging 50-75' trench.




*Story time;*







I had one house where the 4" cast went 14' out straight to the septic tank which was 8' deep under a huge. newish, pressure treated deck. One of the two joints separated from roots about halfway out. The farther section was about 1" lower. The septic pumping guy who came when they initially had the backup suggested pushing a 3" pvc line through the 4" cast. After I snaked it I looked in with a flashlight and determined it just might work. I came back the next day with my sledge and a bunch of 3" pvc stuff. I cut a slope about 2' long on the end of a 7' piece. I pounded it in, glued on a coupling and another 5' piece and pounded some more. Ran the camera to check how far into the tank I was, did another coupling and 2' piece.


My manager thought I was crazy to try but the owner of the rental home had a ton of money/land and really wanted to try. The rest of the waste line was all new pvc and was 3" pvc all the way up to the 4" cast sticking in the wall so it worked out perfect. My manager showed up a couple minutes after I had finished ramming the new pipe in. He was astonished, almost as much as I was relieved that it actually worked!!!! I put a 4' piece of 1/4" vinyl tubing on the end of a can of spray foam and filled the gap between the 3" and the 4". 



When I was done replacing some fittings and hooking it up I scraped out the excess foam from the opening and filled the gap with hydraulic cement. 


That was like 5 years ago so I guess it worked pretty good. :biggrin:











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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> The toolbox was a personal project.
> 
> 
> Yeah, you are correct I prefer to save old stuff if I can but only when it makes sense for the customer.
> ...


I wouldn't of done that since it's smaller than the code it's too easy for them to file a complaint the next day or sue then everything is at your expense plus getting your name in the magazine.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> I wouldn't of done that since it's smaller than the code it's too easy for them to file a complaint the next day or sue then everything is at your expense plus getting your name in the magazine.





Not all of us live on the other side of the wardrobe.


























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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> Not all of us live on the other side of the wardrobe.
> 
> 
> 
> .


Secret passage in the back of the closet? (Just talking nonsense...without any idea what that means)


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## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

Was at a house that had a 2.5" galvanized fence post as the drain between the house and tank just made me laugh.. it backed up twice in a 2 week period I told the guy the first time to dig it up.. 

I want to wait till spring he says... just told him you might get lucky for it to last that long ...

probably had one old fart living there for many years before then moved in with in laws and his wife and 3 kids


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

Venomthirst said:


> Was at a house that had a 2.5" galvanized fence post as the drain between the house and tank just made me laugh.. it backed up twice in a 2 week period I told the guy the first time to dig it up..
> 
> I want to wait till spring he says... just told him you might get lucky for it to last that long ...
> 
> probably had one old fart living there for many years before then moved in with in laws and his wife and 3 kids


I went to a house once where the second floor bathroom clogged. I tried snaking it several times with the 3" blade after I pulled the toilet. It wouldn't go through so I ran just the cable with no head and still couldn't get through. I then switched to the 3/8 cable and got it unclogged. I ran the camera and found they ran 4 feet of 3" PVC horizontally and where it turned down towards the lower levels it was 2" PVC. This was on a house that was "remodeled" and flipped. Surprisingly they went nearly a year before it clogged.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

> Originally Posted by KIYATGI22 View Post
> I really hope the reason they didn't unclog it was just incompetence and not something more nefarious. As we know the elderly are a group of people that get taken advantage of far too often.





ShtRnsdownhill said:


> and who are you? some handi hack surfing the web on a sunday...



I deleted the spammer. He quoted himself and put links in the quote, sly bastUrd.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Good job VA hydro-rooter. You are a saavy drain cleaner.


I was snaking a tub drain the other day in a mobile home built in 1955! I could have used your help. The drains were old galvanized 1 1/2" cut and threaded into tapped tees. What a pain in the a$$ that was.


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

Tommy plumber said:


> Good job VA hydro-rooter. You are a saavy drain cleaner.
> 
> 
> I was snaking a tub drain the other day in a mobile home built in 1955! I could have used your help. The drains were old galvanized 1 1/2" cut and threaded into tapped tees. What a pain in the a$$ that was.


I hate those lines. Luckily they are few and far between here. I've had the best luck with 1/4" cable on those. The last one I did was back when I still used drums so I'm not sure how a 5/8" cable would handle that. It's been able to go down galvanized tub traps so I'm assuming it should be able to handle threaded tees.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> I hate those lines. Luckily they are few and far between here. I've had the best luck with 1/4" cable on those. The last one I did was back when I still used drums so I'm not sure how a 5/8" cable would handle that. It's been able to go down galvanized tub traps so I'm assuming it should be able to handle threaded tees.
















The bathtub didn't have an overflow!.....:vs_mad:

So, I used my 5/16" innercore cable from under the lav, but I couldn't clear the stoppage. 

So then I went up on the roof and went down the 1 1/2" galvanized stack {with my 5/8" flexible cable}but the tee at the bottom {which was behind the tub and I could see it when I was snaking from under the lav} was a tapped tee upside down so when I snaked from the roof, I can't exactly make the cable go the way I wanted it to. What a pain. I cleared the stoppage but it was draining slower than normal.


I told the owner it needed a wrecking ball......:vs_laugh:


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tommy plumber said:


> The bathtub didn't have an overflow!.....:vs_mad:
> 
> So, I used my 5/16" innercore cable from under the lav, but I couldn't clear the stoppage.
> 
> ...





Did you try a shop vac? From time to time I get tub lines on galv sometimes with galv traps. Usually jamming a shop vac on it, holding for a moment, then pulling off for water to go back in and repeating anywhere from 10-100 times will work loose a hairball from the rust. Once you do get it running free you can use a couple different high strength cleaners for insurance/extra rust scrubbing.





I just had one of these monday evening. The overflow grid wasn't removable/rusted on. I tried running my 5/16" through the big overflow holes but was getting stuck in the weir, presumably a plug was tapped in. So I covered the over flow with a glove and did the shop vac jam about 20 times till a ball of hair came back. I pulled it out from under the cross grid in the basket with my needle nose.




I would follow this up with some "quick drain" which is a foaming NaOH powder that will break up much of the residual rust. Then Some 35% HCl to dissolve the small stuff left. And, when I used to have it some, KOH flakes to really scrub the remaining people bits and build up a good even coating on the now bare steel.


























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