# Cast iron



## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Yesterdays job, cracked 3” cast iron toilet drain cut out and replaced. Also cracked 2” jetted tub drain.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Here’s the tub


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

No hub, I see. Any idea how old it is?


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Plumbus said:


> No hub, I see. Any idea how old it is?


I would guess 80’s or 90’s. Huge house and those drains were barely used


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Plumbus said:


> No hub, I see. Any idea how old it is?


The toilet drain was a strange bumpy cast iron.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Debo22 said:


> The toilet drain was a strange bumpy cast iron.
> View attachment 131031
> 
> View attachment 131030


It's to quite the flow of water thru the pipe,that's only reason you use cast iron pipe,to keep from hearing a waterfall when toilets are flushed


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Debo22 said:


> Yesterdays job, cracked 3” cast iron toilet drain cut out and replaced. Also cracked 2” jetted tub drain.
> View attachment 131024
> View attachment 131025


Was that pipe in some kind of bind??? Odd it would crack. Like that


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

sparky said:


> It's to quite the flow of water thru the pipe,that's only reason you use cast iron pipe,to keep from hearing a waterfall when toilets are flushed


That is exactly what I told the homeowner. They did it to keep it quiet on the horizontals and in the basement it switched to ABS


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

sparky said:


> Was that pipe in some kind of bind??? Odd it would crack. Like that


No bind at all


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Debo22 said:


> No bind at all


I've heard methane gas can cause cast iron to crack but I'm not so sure myself


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

sparky said:


> I've heard methane gas can cause cast iron to crack but I'm not so sure myself


Yes. Same with copper.


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## northplm (Jul 11, 2021)

Was the house on septic or municipal sewer?


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

northplm said:


> Was the house on septic or municipal sewer?


Septic


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Debo22 said:


> Septic


Even worse gasses.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Methane may form acidic compounds, but it doesn't directly cause it to crack. As the cast iron rusts it gets thinner. The internal stresses introduced when it was cast is what causes it to literally rip itself apart.

We occasionally use cast iron on the verticals and the bottom sweeps to limit noise, putting on a horizontal is less effective. On the vertical it rusts a lot less because the liquids don't puddle.

No-Hub cast iron is garbage, it's closer to steel than cast iron which is why it rusts so bad. Might not be so bad if they let it cool more slowly when it was produced.

For the cost/durability, you're better off getting SOLID pvc pipe and insulating it with fleece for sound deadening.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

OpenSights said:


> Even worse gasses.


You're thinking of hydrogen sulfide gasses condensing and creating sulfuric acid.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

sparky said:


> Was that pipe in some kind of bind??? Odd it would crack. Like that


Not odd at all. The internal stresses of the pipe cause it to pull itself apart. I see it a lot.

If I have to cut a thinner cast iron line I will put a hose clamp a couple inches back from my cut and remove it once I get a connector on.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Sewer gas coming up from the septic tank will eat the hell out of
copper drain lines and cast iron drain lines..... Its normally much older than 
something installed back in the 1980s.... 

I installed a separate vent on the outside of our house from our septic pit just for this reason 
to allow the fumes to possibly vent without constantly being blown up through the copper and cast 
plumbing system.... 
I really dont know if it will do any good or not....


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> Sewer gas coming up from the septic tank will eat the hell out of
> copper drain lines and cast iron drain lines..... Its normally much older than
> something installed back in the 1980s....
> 
> ...


It will definitely help. Your best bet if you already have a vent through your roof, is a vent on the outlet of the tank, or at the end of the leech fields. Indeed a leech field vent has already become code in many places, and accepted practice in many others. I see it a lot on systems that are newer than 10 years around here. Back 100 years ago it was common to have a vent right on the side of the house where the waste line left, it would usually be a crook pointing down, or later a little cast iron vent cap.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Have been doing a little research. here's what I've come up with.





TRU-SPUN Trademark of AMSTED INDUSTRIES INCORPORATED Serial Number: 72193355 :: Trademarkia Trademarks


TRU-SPUN is a trademark and brand of AMSTED INDUSTRIES INCORPORATED




trademark.trademarkia.com




I recall recall trying Tru-Spun No Hub pipe years ago. it was a product that was in vogue with wholesalers in my area for a period of time. Though I can't recall exactly, it's popularity probably had to do with it's price. I didn't like it because it was too hard to cut with a snap cutter. I assume that had something to do with how it was manufactured or the chemical make up of it's raw material. 

Here's an old post from the Ridgid Forum 
03-28-2008, 11:18 AM
Re: Cast Iron-different grades of quality?
up until the late 80's there was a brand of no hub called "tru-spun".
it was nice to work with because it was clean and straight. although it was harder to cut with a snap cutter.
it was also an issue years later as it started to split for no reason.
i know when i was doing pre-fab and cutting deck risers (16''). the chop saw would cut right through it and then as it cooled, you could hear the pinging. the pipe was actually getting hair line cracks at the cut.
we stopped using it before it was pulled from the market.
rick.






Pipe Lawsuit | Cast Iron Leaking & Home Water Damage


Cast Iron Pipes Lawsuit If your home or commercial property was built before 1975, there’s a good chance that it contains a cast iron plumbing system that has failed or is already failing.




www.pipelawsuit.com












cast iron failure


I have several buildings from the mid 1970's presenting a lateral split in cast pipe 2 & 3" . 8 to 10' sections with 1/4" split all or most of the way . is this happening in your aria ? what is the cause?




www.plumbingzone.com









Mysterious cracks in no hub cast iron pipe - RIDGID Forum | Plumbing, Woodworking and Power Tools


Plumbers Forum: If you are not a pro or on your way to becoming a professional tradesman please use the "Ask the Plumbing Experts" Section



www.ridgidforum.com





I do not think Tyler or Charlotte CI pipe is "garbage". I do think that Tru-Spun pipe was. The fact that it was withdrawn from the market speaks for itself.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Plumbus said:


> ...............I do not think Tyler or Charlotte CI pipe is "garbage". I do think that Tru-Spun pipe was. The fact that it was withdrawn from the market speaks for itself.


I have replaced way too much ~10yr old no-hub cast iron to not consider it garbage. Usually it's charlotte. Maybe our water quality is different and just rusts it out faster. All I know is, it rusts halfway through and then usually splits. Or it will occasionally get pinholes.

Ten years after the day come up with a fire-resistant plastic drain pipe I will rejoice. Newcon guys just have no idea. They install this crap that seems like it would be fine and 3-10 years down the road it's my problem. 


Don't even get me started on those asinine in wall toilet tanks, usually Gerberit. I tell dispatch I can't fit my hands in and to send this one newcon guy that has installed a couple. Whenever I see them in homes I warn customers they are plastic garbage and a mold infestation waiting to happen.

It isn't always bad product, sometimes it's improper installation. 

I had to replace some 20yr old abs last week because it split. They have "Radiant heating" for the first floor in the basement ceiling. It's just fin tube hung above a drop ceiling. That abs is seeing 180 degree temps it's not rated for. Went through a similar issue in a house for sale about 4 months ago. It was even worse. ~25' of 3" abs in a chase above the basement boiler. The heat went up the chase and the abs was just shattering from the heat cycles.

Another problem I am waiting for is the plastic stops on some newer Kohler shower/tub valves. This plastic piece is held in with a split ring. How many newcon guys take them out to solder? About half of our guys. How many other newcon guys out there are too lazy to take the stops out?

Call me an old fart stuck in the mud, I don't care. Some bs I just have no patience for.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

*All* plumbing material is going to wear out eventually. And, local conditions do have an effect. Improper installation is another problem. Products that are designed to suit the manufacturer and not the installer is another. When my guys install something, I own it for a year. After that, it's on you. But, at least you can charge for the service. If things were perfect, you'd be as lonely as the Maytag Man.
Unlike PVC and ABS, at least cast iron can be recycled.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Plumbus said:


> *All* plumbing material is going to wear out eventually. And, local conditions do have an effect. Improper installation is another problem. Products that are designed to suit the manufacturer and not the installer is another. When my guys install something, I own it for a year. After that, it's on you. But, at least you can charge for the service. If things were perfect, you'd be as lonely as the Maytag Man.
> Unlike PVC and ABS, at least cast iron can be recycled.


Drain pipes buried in a wall/ceiling should last a lot longer than 10years. I'd rather get a different job than have the constant drain on our society of replacing things 3x as often as we used. If your argument is about the environment, than you'd be installing pvc instead of no-hub and pushing for better recycling options. Pvc will outlast no-hub many times over, saving a lot of fuel/carbon/money. Tank water heaters should last 30 years, not 10. Cast iron waste lines should last at least 50 years under normal conditions.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> Drain pipes buried in a wall/ceiling should last a lot longer than 10years. I'd rather get a different job than have the constant drain on our society of replacing things 3x as often as we used. If your argument is about the environment, than you'd be installing pvc instead of no-hub and pushing for better recycling options. Pvc will outlast no-hub many times over, saving a lot of fuel/carbon/money. Tank water heaters should last 30 years, not 10. Cast iron waste lines should last at least 50 years under normal conditions.


Most of the cast iron I have had trouble with didn't have enough slope and constantly had standing water in the pipe,caused to corrode twice as fast


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

sparky said:


> Most of the cast iron I have had trouble with didn't have enough slope and constantly had standing water in the pipe,caused to corrode twice as fast


Yeah, that's usually because 2 band connectors are not sufficient when guys don't want to use enough hangers or there are a lot of fittings in a short span.

For what it's worth, pvc handles standing water just fine


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

You must have nasty water in your area if CI waste only lasts 10 years. If it's that corrosive, I don't think I'd want to let it pass my lips.
Under *normal conditions*, CI does last 50+ years in my area. If there were better recycling options for PVC, I think we would be using them by now. 
As it is, we are drowning in our plastic waste with no solution on the horizon.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

How did tank water heaters get into this conversation?


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Plumbus said:


> *All* plumbing material is going to wear out eventually. And, local conditions do have an effect. Improper installation is another problem. Products that are designed to suit the manufacturer and not the installer is another. ...........





Plumbus said:


> How did tank water heaters get into this conversation?


Because you widened the discussion to include *all *plumbing material, and then mentioned those designed to suit manufacturers. I took that as you referring to planned obsolescence being a good thing in light of your previous comment about me being out of a job.



Plumbus said:


> *You must have nasty water in your area if CI waste only lasts 10 years. *If it's that corrosive, I don't think I'd want to let it pass my lips.
> Under *normal conditions*, CI does last 50+ years in my area. If there were better recycling options for PVC, I think we would be using them by now.
> As it is, we are drowning in our plastic waste with no solution on the horizon.


Most cast iron around here in general does just fine, it's the no-hub cast iron that fails prematurely. I go into houses everyday with 60yr old+ cast iron every day. 

And no, it isn't survivorship bias, the vast majority of homes that age still have their cast iron.

Our water is high in lime and iron. Some pockets have acidic water but it attacks the copper long before the cast iron.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

One reason No-Hub isn't as sturdy as older bell and spigot service weight is because of the coating restrictions imposed on the manufacturers by the EPA. 
Actually, you widened the conversation when you went off on in wall toilet tanks and threw in "It isn't always bad product, sometimes it's improper installation," for good measure.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Plumbus said:


> One reason No-Hub isn't as sturdy as older bell and spigot service weight is because of the coating restrictions imposed on the manufacturers by the EPA.
> ................


Coating or not, the pipe itself should last more than 10 years before we start having to replace pipe/fittings because they rusted half way through and split! 

The stuff that doesn't rust out gets so rough they get clogs from a single hygiene product.


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## northplm (Jul 11, 2021)

Plumbus said:


> You must have nasty water in your area if CI waste only lasts 10 years. If it's that corrosive, I don't think I'd want to let it pass my lips.
> Under *normal conditions*, CI does last 50+ years in my area. If there were better recycling options for PVC, I think we would be using them by now.
> As it is, we are drowning in our plastic waste with no solution on the horizon.


CI around here can vary widely, based on the part of town it’s in, the gassed in the sewer or septic system, soil composition/backfill, etc. I have seen 40 year old cast iron that is shot, and I've seen 150 year old cast iron that looks brand new inside and out. There are some areas where they used ash or something to backfill, probably because of all the clay, and the ash just rips the cast iron apart. This practice seemed to end sometime before WW2 so it's only in older houses. In post WW2 homes usually if the cast is shot it's the kitchen line, or they are on septic, indicating it has more to do with the conditions than the pipe itself. Some parts of town are known for heavy duty cast, that stuff can be over 100 years old and almost impossible to snap with soil pipe cutters or cut through with anything but a gas saw. We also have a lot of trouble pipe bursting through it, so usually if we find someone has heavy duty cast we just mill it out and call it good, otherwise it's too difficult to break cut it apart and remove it. Personally on new builds I would rather pvc be installed for everything possible, and just insulate it if you don't like the noise, but given that most cast seems to hold up I will admit it has it's place. I wonder if there's something they are backfilling with, something in the water, etc that's killing the cast where skonerosa works. I have also seen in taller buildings no hub holds up much better, when a large building begins to settle the no hub bands provide for some contraction and movement, whereas the PVC will snap and shear.


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## mtfallsmikey (Jan 11, 2010)

Had a 10' vertical piece of No-Hub pipe crack like that earlier this year in one of my buildings, was on a stack going to the mop sink drains.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

northplm said:


> .........I wonder if there's something they are backfilling with, something in the water, etc that's killing the cast where skonerosa works. ............



No, this is almost all above ground, in drop ceilings/walls, installed solely to meet fire code. They stub pvc up out of the slabs and run the pvc underground. Seems like every time some fails it's hidden behind ductwork.

Recently had a 3" no-hub floor drain trap rot out in a comm. kitchen, 2nd floor. Trap is above the center of a walk-in freezer. They ain't going to bust up the tile floor or the walk-in ceiling, so they just put a Cambro container in the drain.

Most of what you describe is my experience with cast iron. The older stuff is good and has been around 80+ years. The new crap from the 70's onward cracks when it begins to rust through. The same additives that make the alloy rust resistant, like silica, also raise the melting point. My guess is they leave them out so they burn less fuel melting the iron.

You ever seen Dur-Iron? It's 85% silica. When you break it you see large silver grain structure, similar to when solder cools to quickly. On the outside it looks like cast aluminum but it's extremely heavy. It's basically solid glass with some iron mixed in. It's used as chemical resistant piping. You'd pack the joints with coated Asbestos instead of Oakum.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

If the only reason to install a certain pipe is that it doesn't light on fire, it's probably garbage 

You can try to make the noise argument but spray foam takes care of that, and spray foaming is all the rage these days.


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## northplm (Jul 11, 2021)

skoronesa said:


> If the only reason to install a certain pipe is that it doesn't light on fire, it's probably garbage
> 
> You can try to make the noise argument but spray foam takes care of that, and spray foaming is all the rage these days.


I’m sure I’m not the only plumber who has used his b tank or turbo torch to give some PVC the business, sometimes intentionally, sometimes just because sh1t happens. As I’m sure you can attest, it’s not exactly the most flammable substance known to man.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

northplm said:


> I’m sure I’m not the only plumber who has used his b tank or turbo torch to give some PVC the business, sometimes intentionally, sometimes just because sh1t happens. As I’m sure you can attest, it’s not exactly the most flammable substance known to man.


Yup, and you know immediately when it's on fire! I put some 1/4" pvc paneling behind my toilet, barely torched it at all soldering the new stop on!


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## northplm (Jul 11, 2021)

skoronesa said:


> Yup, and you know immediately when it's on fire! I put some 1/4" pvc paneling behind my toilet, barely torched it at all soldering the new stop on!
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 131050


Pretty ugly, I would have put up cast iron paneling if it was my house.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

northplm said:


> Pretty ugly, I would have put up cast iron paneling if it was my house.


I actually almost bought that embossed copper sheet metal they put on ceilings but my wife probably would have killed me. And the 4x8 sheet of pvc was only 35$.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Years ago, I had an open back bidet with gold trim set in front of a mirror. The HO didn't like to look at the plumbing so I shaped a piece of copper to fit over the opening, had it gold plated and glued it on. That was 40 some years ago and I haven't been back since.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Plumbus said:


> .......... That was 40 some years ago and I haven't been back since.


Scratch a stone tile? That grey pipe dope on your fingers matches great!


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

I scratched a black tile floor setting pedestal lavy once. Permanent eye liner hides more than just bags under the eyes.


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

There was another brand of C.I. pipe back in the mid to late 2000's that was made in China but was being sold out of Texas like it was a domestic product. There were a few local towns that actually had a amendment added to code prohibiting it's use because of it's reputation for failure, can't remember the brand name.


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