# Nice high efficiency water heater option.



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

Here is a State Premier standard vent that I installed about a year ago. The customer was complaining of a noise from the water heater and turned out to be a bad pressure regulator, so I decided to take some pics of this fine water heater to share with you guys. 

I wanted to share this because I am a really big fan of these. I install a lot of them, they are a nice middle ground that combines high efficiency and energy star rating and an affordable price for most people that are not willing to spend 5k on a Eternal hybrid system. These go for around 2800 installed. And in my opinion the conventional tank design is the most time tested design. 

I love these heaters because they are really nice, they are the only energy star rated atmospherically vented water heater on the market, it boasts a 70% efficiency rating. Its really neat technology, it's basically a power vent in reverse. It has a fan that pushes combustion air in to the combustion chamber then uses a special restrictive flue baffle to create a pressurized combustion chamber. When it is running you can hold your hand on the flue pipe, it is only warm to the touch because that much more heat is transferred to the tank itself instead of being lost through the vent. It has a powered anode rod for added corrosion protection. This unit will usually result in a customers gas bill being cut at least in half. It is a direct replacement for a standard gas water heater , the only thing it needs is a power outlet nearby. It has a 10' power cord. What do you guys think?:thumbup:


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## plbgbiz

Nice.

I am curious about the new code allowing the WH to be vented into the pressure tank. :jester:


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## OldSchool

So what happen if the chimney gets blocked after the draft hood ????

Is there a safety on the draft hood for spillage ???


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

plbgbiz said:


> Nice.
> 
> I am curious about the new code allowing the WH to be vented into the pressure tank. :jester:



Haha. Yep it's going right in to it. I make my own codes:thumbsup:


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## AlbacoreShuffle

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Haha. Yep it's going right in to it. I make my own codes:thumbsup:


You too !


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## OldSchool

I see a few code infractions on your install


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## Gettinit

You call that high efficiency?


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## AlbacoreShuffle

OldSchool said:


> I see a few code infractions on your install


We cant run the T&P to the pan, It has to be ran to the exterior of the building.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

Gettinit said:


> You call that high efficiency?


Compared to a standard gas heater it is. Not compared to an eternal system.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

OldSchool said:


> I see a few code infractions on your install


Explain please.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> We cant run the T&P to the pan, It has to be ran to the exterior of the building.


Wow I bet that is a major pita.


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## AlbacoreShuffle

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Wow I bet that is a major pita.


Yes it can be.
We have a section of Boise Idaho called " The North End " many of the homes in that area are "historical " and have crawl spaces that a cat would have a hard time getting in.


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## rjbphd

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Yes it can be.
> We have a section of Boise Idaho called " The North End " many of the homes in that area are "historical " and have crawl spaces that a cat would have a hard time getting in.


 What purpose for the WH t&p drain running outside while you have floor drain nearby???


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## AlbacoreShuffle

rjbphd said:


> What purpose for the WH t&p drain running outside while you have floor drain nearby???


In many cases there is no floor drain.
If a floor drain is available it can be used.


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## rjbphd

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> In many cases there is no floor drain.
> If a floor drain is available it can be used.


If there's no floor drain in any mech room, that's is a seroius code infraction!


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## AlbacoreShuffle

rjbphd said:


> If there's no floor drain in any mech room, that's is a seroius code infraction!


Its not uncommon to have a water heater in the middle of the house in a closet or in the laundry room. 
Most of the time there is no floor drain, It sure would be nice to have one. 

But we play the cards we are dealt.


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## AlbacoreShuffle

Also don't forget, I'm in Idaho, you have more population in Chicago than we have in the whole state .:laughing:


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## rjbphd

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Also don't forget, I'm in Idaho, you have more population in Chicago than we have in the whole state .:laughing:


And we have more floor drains to rod .. laughing


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## gitnerdun

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


>


Are those copper females attached to the factory nipples? I've had bad results with that and have switched to brass female x sweat.


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## OldSchool

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Explain please.


The t&p termination to close to the drain pan ...

Appliance or flex connector used on gas hookup

Also you say this HWT has power venting ?? Or induced draft ???


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## Mississippiplum

OldSchool said:


> The t&p termination to close to the drain pan ...
> 
> Appliance or flex connector used on gas hookup
> 
> Also you say this HWT has power venting ?? Or induced draft ???


Induced draft

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

gitnerdun said:


> Are those copper females attached to the factory nipples? I've had bad results with that and have switched to brass female x sweat.


I have never seen any issues doing it this way. What kind of problems have you seen? 



OldSchool said:


> The t&p termination to close to the drain pan ...
> 
> Appliance or flex connector used on gas hookup
> 
> Also you say this HWT has power venting ?? Or induced draft ???


Induced draft
Tp is terminated too close your right. 
It's perfectly fine to use a gas flex connector on a water heater here, though I usually hard pipe but did not have enough fittings for this one. At least it's bends are nice and straight..


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## plbgbiz

OldSchool said:


> So what happen if the chimney gets blocked after the draft hood ????
> 
> Is there a safety on the draft hood for spillage ???





OldSchool said:


> I see a few code infractions on your install





Gettinit said:


> You call that high efficiency?





AlbacoreShuffle said:


> We cant run the T&P to the pan, It has to be ran to the exterior of the building.





gitnerdun said:


> Are those copper females attached to the factory nipples? I've had bad results with that and have switched to brass female x sweat.





OldSchool said:


> The t&p termination to close to the drain pan ...
> 
> Appliance or flex connector used on gas hookup
> 
> Also you say this HWT has power venting ?? Or induced draft ???


That'll teach you to post a pic. :laughing::laughing:


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## gitnerdun

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> I have never seen any issues doing it this way. What kind of problems have you seen?.


Dissimilar metals create electrolysis. This was less than 1 year.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

plbgbiz said:


> That'll teach you to post a pic. :laughing::laughing:


Ha! That's nothing... I don't give up that easy


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

gitnerdun said:


> Dissimilar metals create electrolysis. This was less than 1 year.


I'm aware of that but isn't that why there are dielectric nipples installed?


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## rjbphd

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> I'm aware of that but isn't that why there are dielectric nipples installed?


@@@+&#_^#_%^@*÷@&+_^<3^&+<3$+&÷*-+*÷([email protected](<;;\#+&# those die-electric unions.. they aren't worth the sh!t ..


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## gitnerdun

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> I'm aware of that but isn't that why there are dielectric nipples installed?


 Is there a sticker on the heater stating that they are dielectric?
Bradford says theirs are, but without proper documentation it will fail inspection here. The heater in my pic, according to BW, was installed with an approved connection. As you can see it didn't last.


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## Cal

gitnerdun said:


> Is there a sticker on the heater stating that they are dielectric?
> Bradford says theirs are, but without proper documentation it will fail inspection here. The heater in my pic, according to BW, was installed with an approved connection. As you can see it didn't last.


 That looks like a TOTALLY different issue other then dissimilar metals ! 
Looks like either a leak developed or you got backdrafting causing lots of moisture on top of heater ,,,, either that or your water is really acid :laughing:


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## rjbphd

Cal said:


> That looks like a TOTALLY different issue other then dissimilar metals !
> Looks like either a leak developed or you got backdrafting causing lots of moisture on top of heater ,,,, either that or your water is really acid :laughing:


Agreed,agreed,agreeed


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## gitnerdun

I agree that is a lot of corrosion in a short period of time. It's the only pic I have of this connection type. That heater was inside the house on County water. Start looking at heaters that you have installed in the past and you'll notice corrosion too. Copper to steel no good.


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## rjbphd

gitnerdun said:


> I agree that is a lot of corrosion in a short period of time. It's the only pic I have of this connection type. That heater was inside the house on County water. Start looking at heaters that you have installed in the past and you'll notice corrosion too. Copper to steel no good.


Oh bs... if u screw the copper MALE adt into steel pipes.. you won't have a problem... yes I seen my work that way, the heater will crap out long before the fittings.. its the die electric unoins failing ALL the times..


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## Gettinit

I have seen copper tied in directly to heaters with less buildup than many heaters installed with dielectric unions. My guess is that many are over tightening. Also, has anyone noticed that some dielectric union faces almost guarantee the union faces touch?


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

It's the plastic inside the nipples that make them dielectric correct? I mean they come preinstalled by the factory. 

Back in the day we used to just screw males directly in to the heaters and never had a problem, many are still that way today. Most of the ones I see are due to a slow leak.


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## OldSchool

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> It's the plastic inside the nipples that make them dielectric correct? I mean they come preinstalled by the factory.
> 
> Back in the day we used to just screw males directly in to the heaters and never had a problem, many are still that way today. Most of the ones I see are due to a slow leak.


I think the plastic tube you are seeing is the dip tube


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

OldSchool said:


> I think the plastic tube you are seeing is the dip tube


I know what a dip tube is..Im talking about the nipples that are lined with blue plastic, you buy them at the supply house and they come preinstalled in water heaters..they are dielectric nipples


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## Cal

The AO Smith rep told us that those are NOT dielectric nipples ,, just plastic lined .

I use 3/4" cop x 3/4" FIP adapts . Have always done that ,,, no problems .


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## gitnerdun

Inspectors here will fail a copper female on those plastic lined nipples as they are not dielectric nipples. Dissimilar metals remember. Males right into the tank, for whatever reason, seemed to work just fine. I'm not using unions and never have.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

I have never used unions either and very rarely do I see them used. How do inspectors want it done in your area?


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## plbgbiz

_*IPC 2009 
605.24.1 - Copper or copper-alloy tubing to galvanized steel pipe.* 
Joints between copper or copper-alloy tubing and galvanized steel pipe shall be made with a brass fitting or dielectric fitting or a dielectric union conforming to ASSE 1079._

Based on the above our inspectors will allow a brass coupling on the WH nipples and then copper male adapters from the coupling soldered to the copper pipe.

We usually use flex connectors.


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## gitnerdun

I found some brass FIP by sweat adapters. I like those, or brass threaded couplings and copper male.


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## JK949

plbgbiz said:


> _*IPC 2009
> 605.24.1 - Copper or copper-alloy tubing to galvanized steel pipe.*
> Joints between copper or copper-alloy tubing and galvanized steel pipe shall be made with a brass fitting or dielectric fitting or a dielectric union conforming to ASSE 1079._
> 
> Based on the above our inspectors will allow a brass coupling on the WH nipples and then copper male adapters from the coupling soldered to the copper pipe.
> 
> We usually use flex connectors.


It's under UPC code too. As a rule use 6" of brass between steel and copper. Dialectic nipples always rust out. Use brass unions instead.


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## Smitten_kitten

Cal said:


> That looks like a TOTALLY different issue other then dissimilar metals !
> Looks like either a leak developed or you got backdrafting causing lots of moisture on top of heater ,,,, either that or your water is really acid :laughing:


 
Good call i actually just saw something like that not to that extent but bad none the less i bet its spillage plus incomplete combustion= water vapor sulfuric acid and nitric oxide that would eat copper up quick.


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## Gettinit

I was on a start up at a university where they used type K copper for condensate pipes, idiots. Why they didn't use SS is beyond me. I wonder if it made a year?


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## SewerRatz

rjbphd said:


> If there's no floor drain in any mech room, that's is a seroius code infraction!


I have to ask what part of the Illinois code is this in? The reason I ask, is a while back my friend was in an apprenticeship build off. They had to rough do a rough in. He took the time to add a 2" floor drain to the Mechanical room, where the others did not and one of them finished before he did. It was ruled per the Illinois Plumbing code the floor drain was unnecessary, and is the reason he lost.


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## rjbphd

SewerRatz said:


> I have to ask what part of the Illinois code is this in? The reason I ask, is a while back my friend was in an apprenticeship build off. They had to rough do a rough in. He took the time to add a 2" floor drain to the Mechanical room, where the others did not and one of them finished before he did. It was ruled per the Illinois Plumbing code the floor drain was unnecessary, and is the reason he lost.


 Interesting, failed inspection on one job due to additon with basement with new boiler and water heater, no floor drain to sump pump pit.. a really small basement and sump pit was the lowest point with lip below concrete...
Another one, any building or residensce must have floor drain in the lowest room.. ( from what the customer told me) so they have a floor drain in the middle of the sunken living room and still above grade to outside while mech room is in upper level without floor drain for mechical equipment ... duhhhhh


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

rjbphd said:


> Interesting, failed inspection on one job due to additon with basement with new boiler and water heater, no floor drain to sump pump pit.. a really small basement and sump pit was the lowest point with lip below concrete...
> Another one, any building or residensce must have floor drain in the lowest room.. ( from what the customer told me) so they have a floor drain in the middle of the sunken living room and still above grade to outside while mech room is in upper level without floor drain for mechical equipment ... duhhhhh


Floor drain in the living room...nice!:thumbup:


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## SewerRatz

Well, if an inspector failed an inspection on me for no floor drain, I would ask him to show it to me in the code book. Or in the city's amendments.


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## rjbphd

SewerRatz said:


> Well, if an inspector failed an inspection on me for no floor drain, I would ask him to show it to me in the code book. Or in the city's amendments.


 Thanks, SR.. will use that question next time..


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## SewerRatz

rjbphd said:


> Thanks, SR.. will use that question next time..


It's all about the code, not what they feel is right.


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## rjbphd

As we know, there are some codes that aren't right with certain situtaion...


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## Drumma Plumma

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> I love these heaters because they are really nice, _*they are the only energy star rated atmospherically vented water heater on the market, *_it boasts a 70% efficiency rating.


*Back to OP:*
Bradford White has several models that are energy star rated atmospherically vented and they are only a few bucks more than the standard models. ie Bradford Model # D4403S6FBN http://www.bradfordwhite.com/energyfactor_natural.asp
Ferguson carries a few models with energy star ratings. As you can see, you basically pay for the sticker as there is not a huge energy savings. But, some areas offer rebate programs if you use them (non in Chicago area that I know of), other customers just feel like they have more piece of mind if going power vent is not an option. I have had good success with the AO Smith Vertex heaters. Had a customer with a 32 unit building save an average of over $200/month after pulling out the hack install with 5-40 gallon heaters installed in a mickey mouse combination of series and parallel.

*Re: Unions on water heaters*, I was always taught that they were required as the water heater is considered an appliance and as such should be removable for maintenance via union connections. They are definitely required in IL. This diagram from the IL plumbing code shows dielectric unions if factory installed dielectric nipples are not present.http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/07700890ZZ9996ilR.html

Here is the wording from the section in the IL code on unions: Section 890.350 Unions

Unions may be used in the drainage and venting system when accessibly located above ground. Un*ions shall be installed in a water supply system within 5 feet of regulating equipment, water heaters, water conditioning tanks, water conditioning equipment, pumps, and similar equipment which may require service by removal or replacement. *Where small equipment may be unscrewed, only one union shall be required.

a) Drainage System. Unions may be used in the trap seal and on the inlet and outlet side of the trap. Unions shall have metal to metal seats except that plastic unions may have plastic to plastic seats.

b) Water Supply System. Unions in the water supply system shall be metal to metal with ground seats, except that plastic to metal unions may utilize durable, non-toxic, impervious gaskets. *Unions between copper pipe/tubing and dissimilar metals shall either be made with a brass converter fitting or be a dielectric type union.*
Here's the link:
http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/077008900C03500R.html

(Source: Amended at 28 Ill. Reg. 4215, effective February 18, 2004)

*Re: dielectric connections on heaters*, I use Propress and usually install the bronze copper press X Female or brass FIP unions with male press adapters into those. I only use dielectric nipples in a pinch if I am out of brass or press unions. If there is predominantly galvanized still present in the house, I typically use brass unions and nipples, unless I can get me some Ward fittings from a supply house.


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## drain surgeon

Ive lived and worked in Maine and now in N.C. Code in Maine as of 3 years ago required a vacuume breaker and unions on water heaters but allowed for copper fittings screwed directly to the heater nipples or ports and no expansion tank was required. In N.C a V.B. is only required with bottom feed tanks, Dielectric unions or brass connections between copper and heater taps no other union required and expansion tank on all heaters. I have said it before and Ill say it again. With the obvious exceptions due to temperature differences I do not understand why the code varies so much from state to state or even town to town


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## rjbphd

drain surgeon said:


> Ive lived and worked in Maine and now in N.C. Code in Maine as of 3 years ago required a vacuume breaker and unions on water heaters but allowed for copper fittings screwed directly to the heater nipples or ports and no expansion tank was required. In N.C a V.B. is only required with bottom feed tanks, Dielectric unions or brass connections between copper and heater taps no other union required and expansion tank on all heaters. I have said it before and Ill say it again. With the obvious exceptions due to temperature differences I do not understand why the code varies so much from state to state or even town to town


 No expanison tank required on water heater???? Guess they never have worked on hydronic heating systems.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

rjbphd said:


> No expanison tank required on water heater???? Guess they never have worked on hydronic heating systems.


They're only required here in certain areas but I put them on all water heaters I install, the last thing I want to do is go back on a leaking t/p valve and then try to explain to the customer why now they need an expansion tank.


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## rjbphd

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> They're only required here in certain areas but I put them on all water heaters I install, the last thing I want to do is go back on a leaking t/p valve and then try to explain to the customer why now they need an expansion tank.


 Why they only required in certain area??? The water is different there?? Glad you are installing expansion tanks, makes ya above most plumbers.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

rjbphd said:


> Why they only required in certain area??? The water is different there?? Glad you are installing expansion tanks, makes ya above most plumbers.


Only certain jurisdictions have check valves on their meters..these are the areas that require them by code.. The way I see it is it's only a matter of time before every meter will have a check valve.


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## rjbphd

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Only certain jurisdictions have check valves on their meters..these are the areas that require them by code.. The way I see it is it's only a matter of time before every meter will have a check valve.


 Also.. the expansion tank are useless if you are on well water and no check valve between the presssure tank and water water.


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## panther

T&P not allowed to pan. Where are the earthquake straps? No strapping on expansion tank? $2800 completely installed. How much do those water heaters cost you?


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

panther said:


> T&P not allowed to pan. Where are the earthquake straps? No strapping on expansion tank? $2800 completely installed. How much do those water heaters cost you?


It's all up to code here brother:thumbsup:


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## No-hub

Pvc not rated to take 210 degree water if T&P pops, needs to be metallic here anyway, stap on both tanks, unions/flex, 24x36 clear space in front of controls, T&P piping to pan but cannot be less than 6'' to pan or ground, but thats Oregon so ignore me.


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## justme

Looks pretty good, we have all seen water heaters that are 100 times worse.


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## Marauder11

SewerRatz said:


> Well, if an inspector failed an inspection on me for no floor drain, I would ask him to show it to me in the code book. Or in the city's amendments.



Not 100% but in Canada it is in the building code is it not.


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## plbgbiz

Marauder11 said:


> Not 100% but in Canada it is in the building code is it not.


Well it's about time you drop back in. :laughing: :thumbup:


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## joeplumber85

Where abouts are you generally plugging (electrical) these tanks in? Many of the mech rooms up here only have a dedicated line coming in for the furnace and no receptacle near by. These energy star tanks are gaining a bit more traction around here and I had to install a john wood just a few weeks back. It came with a plug-in 24v transformer and there was no plug nearby unless they wanted the chord run across the hallway. Had to put a receptacle off the furnace to power it. 

Told the client that it shouldn't be an issue, but if it was either due to a failed inspection or overdraw on the circuit (not likely) we'd have to go a different route. If it were to fail and we are forced to find alterior means of power, I think I'll be avoiding these things like the plague.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

Just splice in an outlet into any existing hot circuit. They current draw is very minimal. 

Most of the time there will be a wire running through the studs of the mechanical room feeding outlets on the wall of the next room.


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## revenge

If I'm not mistaken manufacture specs say drop to floor on t and p


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

Just depends on what local codes allow. Here we are allowed to drain it in to the pan and use PVC on pan drain.


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## sjaquay

here we have to use either copper or cpvc on t&p and has to be no higher than 6" above floor and can not be piped in, must stop above floor or pan, plus the expansion tank must be at least 18" from the tank and the vent has to go up 9" before it can bend, although its not code here yet, they do prefer the expansion tank to be vertical and above the valve. we are aloud to use appliance connectors also. just goes to show how much codes vary...


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

Wow... They're pretty strict up there in Moon Pa....


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## sjaquay

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Wow... They're pretty strict up there in Moon Pa....


allegheny county is very strict, so much so, they actually made their plumbing code an article, which makes it a law which makes it criminal offenses and they do prosecute and will fine the crap out of us. they dont even allow plumbers licensed out of this county to work here on a regular basis, they will allow a one time job. for instance, say you got hired on a remodel job here, they would let you do it,if you asked, but if you wanted to do more, they would make you go to school for 4 years in order to take the j test. very very strict county. sometimes really gets ya :furious:


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## 130 PLUMBER

SewerRatz said:


> I have to ask what part of the Illinois code is this in? The reason I ask, is a while back my friend was in an apprenticeship build off. They had to rough do a rough in. He took the time to add a 2" floor drain to the Mechanical room, where the others did not and one of them finished before he did. It was ruled per the Illinois Plumbing code the floor drain was unnecessary, and is the reason he lost.


 
More than likely he would of failed because code state that *all *under ground plumbing should be 4" or greater. Above ground 2" or greater


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## Drumma Plumma

130 PLUMBER said:


> More than likely he would of failed because code state that all under ground plumbing should be 4" or greater. Above ground 2" or greater


Only under Chicago code is 4" required underground. 2" is allowed by state of il code.


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## Gettinit

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Just splice in an outlet into any existing hot circuit. They current draw is very minimal.
> 
> Most of the time there will be a wire running through the studs of the mechanical room feeding outlets on the wall of the next room.


It would be ok but I am sure it would fail inspection. Is it not code that there needs to be a dedicated circuit for major appliances/water heaters/HVAC?


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

Gettinit said:


> It would be ok but I am sure it would fail inspection. Is it not code that there needs to be a dedicated circuit for major appliances/water heaters/HVAC?




Not sure exactly but I can say that I've never had one fail.


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