# Ethical Practice



## plumbing ninja (Jan 15, 2012)

I got wind of what I think is a dubious practice a plumber I use has been charging to end user!
I specify materials & design for the work. Nominated plumber carried out the work for end user. Charges parts and labour as is common practice which I have no probs with!
I find out thru the plumbing merchant majority of the pipe, valve & fittings had been returned for credit and plastic had been supplied. I investigate the site and see plastic, recycled galv pipe and cheap domestic valves had been fitted where pipework is in roof space or hard places to get too. End user shows me his invoice and I see he has been billed as per the original specified components I outlined. Plumber has pocketed the difference himself. He has been paid for by end user. Is this common practice to fraudulently bill like so?


----------



## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

Why are you using a plumber ?
I thought you were a plumber.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Why are you using a plumber ?
> I thought you were a plumber.


Not a plumber... engineering contractor


----------



## alberteh (Feb 26, 2012)

it is only common practice for the dishonest, untrustworthy types.

stay away from this individual.


----------



## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Just fire him know telling what or how much he has stolen. Steeling is a crime probably a drug user I have had employes like that in the past. Cut your losses before you find half your stuff gone to!


----------



## makinHW (Aug 25, 2012)

I started typing my opinion on this, and it was starting to take off quite a bit as I was going. So I just held the back key for a while and will leave it at this...no comment


----------



## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

Nominated plumber?? Must say, I've never heard of that one before!

Anyways, I understood enough from your post to determine that this guy should probably be 'nominated' for termination.


----------



## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

You are the engineer ,if the plumbing contractor is not putting the work in according to your spec's then you have a responsibility to notify the owner . You also have the responsibility to request the contractor to correct the work or give an appropriate amount of credit back to the owner. Thats my 2 cents


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

plumbing ninja said:


> I got wind of what I think is a dubious practice a plumber I use has been charging to end user!
> I specify materials & design for the work. Nominated plumber carried out the work for end user. Charges parts and labour as is common practice which I have no probs with!
> I find out thru the plumbing merchant majority of the pipe, valve & fittings had been returned for credit and plastic had been supplied. I investigate the site and see plastic, recycled galv pipe and cheap domestic valves had been fitted where pipework is in roof space or hard places to get too. End user shows me his invoice and I see he has been billed as per the original specified components I outlined. Plumber has pocketed the difference himself. He has been paid for by end user. Is this common practice to fraudulently bill like so?


After reading this again... did you hired this "plumber" because he was the lowest bidder to max your profit??


----------



## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> After reading this again... did you hired this "plumber" because he was the lowest bidder to max your profit??


Doesn't matter he is probably a meth head just put him on a black ball list!


----------



## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I'm not sure I exactly understand your scenario. Is it similar to this:

School board has project with certain level of specs and engineering....plumber bids low knowing that local codes and jurisdiction allow for cheaper product and installation.....plumber installs pvc and cpvc, runs the piping to a more efficient and cost effective plan, gets cheaper fixtures and is able to not lose his shirt on the job....local inspections are passed.....

engineering here for mechanical is often overkill and excessive....and most of the time it is a generic set of details and specs thrown on every plan....I dont sympathize generally with engineering for plumbing....in fact we define an engineer as one who is educated beyond his intelligence:jester:....
When it comes to specialty apparatus or systems then more close attention is followed.....


----------



## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

stillaround said:


> I'm not sure I exactly understand your scenario. Is it similar to this:
> 
> School board has project with certain level of specs and engineering....plumber bids low knowing that local codes and jurisdiction allow for cheaper product and installation.....plumber installs pvc and cpvc, runs the piping to a more efficient and cost effective plan, gets cheaper fixtures and is able to not lose his shirt on the job....local inspections are passed.....
> 
> ...


What the city will allow and what is in the spec book is 2 totally different conversations. Just because the city will allow doesn't mean it will meet spec's.


----------



## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

1st I asked if the scenarios were the same. How can you answer justme you don't know squat of what happens here. Choose your battles better sonny. Here the school board contracts to an architect who contracts to a engineering firm that throws blanket specs that are outdated or unnecessary. If a plumber bids the specs he loses the job. It pays to know what goes on before you bid and before you answer on a forum. Don't waste my time.


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Since you specified materials, installing anything other than what was specified is theft. In the U.S., if a contractor wants to deviate from specified materials, submittals and approvals are required.

If you hired this plumbing contractor, you are screwed. Out of curiosity, if you did hire him, why weren't you monitoring the job progress where this would have been discovered much sooner?

Someone should pay dearly for this oversight.


----------



## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

stillaround said:


> 1st I asked if the scenarios were the same. How can you answer justme you don't know squat of what happens here. Choose your battles better sonny. Here the school board contracts to an architect who contracts to a engineering firm that throws blanket specs that are outdated or unnecessary. If a plumber bids the specs he loses the job. It pays to know what goes on before you bid and before you answer on a forum. Don't waste my time.


Well there sonny boy, Let me tell you I have forgotten more about spec's than you will ever know. If you bid a job you should do it to the spec's you gave the bid for PERIOD , if you don't then I guess that would make you a hack . Kinda like using foam core because the city says you can but the spec clearly states Schedule 40 . That makes you a HACK and a thief. You using the EXCUSE that you can't get the job if bid properly says it all HACK .


----------



## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

justme said:


> Well there sonny boy, Let me tell you I have forgotten more about spec's than you will ever know. If you bid a job you should do it to the spec's you gave the bid for PERIOD , if you don't then I guess that would make you a hack . Kinda like using foam core because the city says you can but the spec clearly states Schedule 40 . That makes you a HACK and a thief. You using the EXCUSE that you can't get the job if bid properly says it all HACK .


 If you have forgotten more than I ever knew, that's not saying much:laughing:...all the stinkin self righteous bid spec drivel is cause for some serious pot stirring.....give you one more youngin.....MRI spec, 1.5" waterline....building is supplied with 1.25"....call engineer...1.25" is ok.....why spec 1.5"?.........how much spec is cya propoganda and how much is legitmate. Sounds like you treat the spec like its god....pull your brain out and use it....its written by engineers who may not have even spent 1/2 hr looking at the job.....hack on that for a while.

And Phat...what on earth are you talking about...theft???


----------



## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

plumbing ninja said:


> I got wind of what I think is a dubious practice a plumber I use has been charging to end user!
> I specify materials & design for the work. Nominated plumber carried out the work for end user. Charges parts and labour as is common practice which I have no probs with!
> I find out thru the plumbing merchant majority of the pipe, valve & fittings had been returned for credit and plastic had been supplied. I investigate the site and see plastic, recycled galv pipe and cheap domestic valves had been fitted where pipework is in roof space or hard places to get too. End user shows me his invoice and I see he has been billed as per the original specified components I outlined. Plumber has pocketed the difference himself. He has been paid for by end user. Is this common practice to fraudulently bill like so?


 Did the plumber credit his own account or yours.....if he charged you for copper and then put in plastic, that is fraud.....more info would help ....sometimes switching product and crediting when it doesnt greatly affect the job or outcome of function is not so heinous......the stiff religious types here may disagree.


----------



## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

stillaround said:


> Did the plumber credit his own account or yours.....if he charged you for copper and then put in plastic, that is fraud.....more info would help ....sometimes switching product and crediting when it doesnt greatly affect the job or outcome of function is not so heinous......the stiff religious types here may disagree.


I forgot that you live in the CPVC capital.


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

stillaround said:


> And Phat...what on earth are you talking about...theft???


OP insinuated correct materials were purchased and returned for credit. Cheaper & inferior products were installed in place of specified materials. Plumbing Contractor pocketing the money, which rightfully belonged to the end user who paid for something they didn't get. THEFT!

What is recycled galvanized?


----------



## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

You got that right...everything I was taught in Chicago has been purged.:laughing:

If we are talkin domestic valves vs foreign or other ways to save a buck I'm for it...if its outright deception on a large scale , yeah fry his cookies.....or if it was a clever scheme to bilk the owners and put the engineer at some risk , sure clamp down....but foamcore instead of sch 40 solid is not a mortal sin in my plumbing bible. And not worthy of the theft inquisition....


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

stillaround said:


> If we are talkin domestic valves vs foreign or other ways to save a buck I'm for it..


YEAH for you, but you aren't the one paying to have the work done. :no: Substitutions need to be approved in advance. End users appreciate savings. :yes:

IMO, based on the OP's post, the plumbing contractor took a lot of liberties. 

During the bid process, someone could run a cost savings subsitituion up the flagpole in order to gain competitive edge, without pulling a fast one after the fact. It's done all the time.


----------



## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Phat Cat said:


> OP insinuated correct materials were purchased and returned for credit. Cheaper & inferior products were installed in place of specified materials. Plumbing Contractor pocketing the money, which rightfully belonged to the end user who paid for something they didn't get. THEFT!
> 
> What is recycled galvanized?


 Jay walking is ILLEGAL.....what are we actually talking here before the verdict is rendered....that is also U.S. law:laughing:......


----------



## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

Sounds like you have a crook on your hands. Based on the situation described by the OP, either terminate the 'nominated' plumber *OR* expect more of this to happen again. This was not some innocent mistake. This so called plumber knew exactly what he was doing and he knew it was wrong! Note to OP: If this happens again, I'm going to speculate that nobody on here is going to feel bad for you. Do your business and yourself a favor - *FIRE HIM ALREADY!*


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

stillaround said:


> Jay walking is ILLEGAL.....what are we actually talking here before the verdict is rendered....that is also U.S. law:laughing:......


I'm Judge, Jury, and Executioner, thank you very much! 

Will the next defendant please step forward?


----------



## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

stillaround said:


> You got that right...everything I was taught in Chicago has been purged.:laughing:
> 
> If we are talkin domestic valves vs foreign or other ways to save a buck I'm for it...if its outright deception on a large scale , yeah fry his cookies.....or if it was a clever scheme to bilk the owners and put the engineer at some risk , sure clamp down....but foamcore instead of sch 40 solid is not a mortal sin in my plumbing bible. And not worthy of the theft inquisition....



On the scale of work I do, foam core vs sch 40 would be a huge savings when you're talking 10,000 feet of pipe. Just like type M vs type L copper when you are talking a mile of pipe.


----------



## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Phat Cat said:


> I'm Judge, Jury, and Executioner, thank you very much!
> 
> Will the next defendant please step forward?


 But can you be bought?


----------



## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

justme said:


> On the scale of work I do, foam core vs sch 40 would be a huge savings when you're talking 10,000 feet of pipe. Just like type M vs type L copper when you are talking a mile of pipe.


 I get it...I prefer solid core and L copper....and I wouldnt change to m but underground could be foamcore for me , but not if its going to become a federal offense.


----------



## phishfood (Nov 18, 2012)

First of all, one of my many pet peeves.

Foam core pipe IS Schedule 40. The Schedule is noting the wall thickness, which is the same whether you use Sch 40 foam core, or Sch 40 pressure. What most people call Schedule 40 is Schedule 40 pressure rated pipe. Now that I have coughed up that little chunk of coal.

I get where stillaround is coming from, I think. So many times, engineers have boiler plate specs that they tend to attach to all of their designs, be it an affordable housing apartment complex on the other side of the tracks, or an upscale retail/residential in downtown Niceville. Then the owner/builder wants the bottom dollar bid. You can either bid to specs, or offer alternatives that allow you to lower your bid, while still offering a usable, acceptable end product. 

Example: the engineer specs a certain brand of hangers, but the job is wood frame trusses. The scrap 2x4 out of the dumpster makes a mighty fine hanger, at a really small fraction of the price. 

Example: the engineer draws a drain wrapping 100+ feet around an core egress shaft, but you can tie it into a nearby drain with 20' of pipe, and 180 degrees less of turns. The customer wins, because they have a better system. You win, because you used 80' less of pipe. 

So many times, I will get handed prints. The engineer will specify this, or that. Case in point, a job I am getting rolling right now. Some dumass engineer drew the plumbing penetrating a structural steel beam, with an expensive repair required, to meet drive height requirements, 16' in the air over the high part of the ramp. I am not going to go up there in a boom lift, mark out a hole, wait for the structural steel contractor to torch it out and add a stiffener, and then go back up to install my pipe. I am going to pipe underneath the beam, and save everyone a lot of time and money.


----------



## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

When we used to plumb Kmart stores, we hung the water pipes, & roof drains with same size as pipe, clevis or tear drop hangars and threaded rod. Then insulation was put around the hangar. Did atleast 20 remodels like this. One day one of the big boys came in a store we were working on, & looked up & said he wanted all the piping hangars changed to larger size, to go over the pipe insulation, with saddles under each hangar. Sure enough, it was buried deep in the spec book, to do it that way.

So it does depend on who you are working for. But after doing so many Kmart stores, we thought that we were in the clear too, but found out otherwise.


----------



## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Specks always give options never has a speck book just gave one type or one brand. If you can submit on something you should supply what was agreed on as approved. This is a sticking point that I had with my last employer submit McGuire and use brass craft there is a large difference in cost. The engineer is expecting to see one thing and gets another. This is not right, the plumber in question was in the wrong it was a form of stealing,double crossing both the owner and the engineer. If he will not redo this the wright way I believe you could sue for the amount of the contract and labor to redo the project.


----------



## plumbing ninja (Jan 15, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> After reading this again... did you hired this "plumber" because he was the lowest bidder to max your profit??


I recommended this plumber as his pricing was on a par with others bids, not the cheapest not the most expensive. A fair price but he knew the plant like the back of his hand and he was the preferred plumber by the end users staff. It was his plant experience that tipped it in his favour


----------



## plumbing ninja (Jan 15, 2012)

Phat Cat said:


> Since you specified materials, installing anything other than what was specified is theft. In the U.S., if a contractor wants to deviate from specified materials, submittals and approvals are required.
> 
> If you hired this plumbing contractor, you are screwed. Out of curiosity, if you did hire him, why weren't you monitoring the job progress where this would have been discovered much sooner?
> 
> Someone should pay dearly for this oversight.


Contractor was hired by end user. I provided the recommendation and it was signed off by the plant engineer group. The relationship between the plumber and end user goes back a long time.


----------



## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Looks like the good ole boy wins again !


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

wyrickmech said:


> Looks like the good ole boy wins again !


Kickbacks to the end user may be a part of the deal . . . 

In any event, I don't think I would recommend this contractor to anyone else. :no:


----------



## plumbing ninja (Jan 15, 2012)

stillaround said:


> I'm not sure I exactly understand your scenario. Is it similar to this:
> 
> School board has project with certain level of specs and engineering....plumber bids low knowing that local codes and jurisdiction allow for cheaper product and installation.....plumber installs pvc and cpvc, runs the piping to a more efficient and cost effective plan, gets cheaper fixtures and is able to not lose his shirt on the job....local inspections are passed.....
> 
> ...


It's a similar scenario but in process plants there are many more variables that the plumber may not be aware of. He may think he is being cost effective but he could be costing the plant more in hours of lost production when plant goes down due to premature failure. This happen too often when "Mr I know better" decides to do something else. This is what gets people hurt, maimed or even killed

Your comment on engineers is one I've heard before and I've heard some beauties about plumbers too. I sat in on a "think tank" concerning improving infrastructure last year and listening to the way both groups (engineers & plumbers) slagged each other off was embarrassing! I could have spent the 50 buck entry down at some seedy bar and watch the same scenario unfold


----------



## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

plumbing ninja said:


> I recommended this plumber as his pricing was on a par with others bids, not the cheapest not the most expensive. A fair price but he knew the plant like the back of his hand and he was the preferred plumber by the end users staff. It was his plant experience that tipped it in his favour


So there is no issue. The owner sounds happy with a crap job and the plumber has to warranty his work. If this guy has worked there in the past with sloppy cheap style of work and the owner is smiling they sound like a match made in heaven. Sometimes it's best to just smile and move on down the road. 
Make sure your ducks are in a row so it does not come back on you.


----------



## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

plumbing ninja said:


> It's a similar scenario but in process plants there are many more variables that the plumber may not be aware of. He may think he is being cost effective but he could be costing the plant more in hours of lost production when plant goes down due to premature failure. This happen too often when "Mr I know better" decides to do something else. This is what gets people hurt, maimed or even killed
> 
> Your comment on engineers is one I've heard before and I've heard some beauties about plumbers too. I sat in on a "think tank" concerning improving infrastructure last year and listening to the way both groups (engineers & plumbers) slagged each other off was embarrassing! I could have spent the 50 buck entry down at some seedy bar and watch the same scenario unfold


This is why we have engineers to do the material ,sizing and other calculations as in flow loss and material longevity. Believe me when I say I totally understand I have a wife that is a civil and a son that is a mechanical, try having a argument about flow loss in that room.lol. The safety factors should be in the back of a good plumbers mind but not all of the facts may be available to the plumber it always works better when the two work as a team not trying to out Witt the other.


----------

