# The next person I catch stealing from me will be seriously damaged.



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

I'm tired and don't really feel like this but I think I should post it in case it helps some of you. You're getting the abbreviated version.

Last summer I had all my scrap that I had in an out building stolen.

In mid November 2011 I discovered my bookkeeper was stealing checks, making them out to herself and signing my name, $2400 over 9 checks. For some strange reason, I took pity on her in spite of the warnings of everyone I talked to about it. Not only did I not prosecute her but gave her a chance to make it right. She came back to work about 3 weeks later ... I'll get back to her later. 

About a week after I discovered what the bookkeeper was up to I got a call one afternoon from my wife who was out of town. She was in a panic and said the neighbors had called her cell phone to let her know that our house had been robbed, $7500 including my MacBook Pro. 

The bookkeeper came back to work the first week of December. I changed the way I had been doing things with respect to the way I was handling checks and bill payment but it made no difference. Starting on the very day she came back to work, she stole 4 more checks within the first week. She was fired, and is under prosecution as of this time. 

Following the house robbery I got an alarm system and bought 4 guns (2 for my kids). The new year came and everything settled down for a while. Over the last month or so I have received more bad checks than I have in probably the last 3 or 4 years. One check for $833 had a stop payment placed on it (and has since been collected along with the return item fee). None of the NSF checks have been collected nor is anyone making any effort to make them right. 

On Saturday 4/21/12 I tried to use my debit card but it was declined. I knew better than this because I had PLENTY of money in the account. The card itself was very old and has begun recently to sometimes not want to swipe properly so I didn't think that much about it. Well it nagged me and the next morning I logged on to my online checking account and found a -$1456.00 balance in an account that should have had around 10k or so in it. I quickly found 6 successive charges to a steel company for $2000.00 each. They just ran it until it wouldn't run anymore. I'm at the bank when it opens Monday a.m. Filled out a fraud report, went back to the office and called the Sheriff's Dept., filled out a report and started calling everyone who has auto debit on my acct. to tell them not to run anything because my acct. has been wiped out and the card subsequently terminated.

This a.m. I have an e-mail from the bank saying their investigation is complete and the whole thing was an "error". I check my acct. and the money is back as if it never happened. I still don't know what the bank regards as an "error". A letter from them explaining everything is promised. About 30 minutes later the investigator from the Sheriff's Dept. calls. She says she has a call in to the steel company (it was actually a multi-national steel co. based in my city) but hasn't talked to anyone yet and is awaiting a return call. She says she thinks it's probably just a clerical "error" but will let me know. 10 minutes later she calls back to inform me that it was in fact fraud, that it was actually an order from China for this specialty steel. 

I found great irony in the fact that I was almost successfully hit for $11,000 by a Chinese company importing American made steel. We are enslaving ourselves in Chinese debt on a national level, have a huge trade imbalance with same, all the while they work tirelessly to hack cc processors to steal acct info on a massive scale to purchase American goods with stolen credit cards. I'm not sure I could have made that bullsh!t up!

Happily for me the steel company apparently was suspicious of the transaction to begin with and had already placed a hold on the transaction from their end (at least that's what I was told by the investigator).

I've been hit hard by thieves in the last six months. I've had enough. Lord help the next person I catch with their hand in my pocket without my permission.

P.S. So much for the abbreviated version .


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Sorry to hear about this.

There is NOTHING worse than a thief!


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## Abel Plumber (Sep 3, 2011)

Holy Crap...im glad to hear you got your $ back, and hope your bookkeeper gets into deep s for what she did. Just	remember, "no good deed goes unpunished". No matter how nice of a guy you try to be it seems you most likely end up regretting it. Go play the lottery, your luck should change for you soon enough.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Maybe you should change your name to ~~~ Givingmymoneytosomeoneelse


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## PrecisePlumbing (Jan 31, 2011)

There is not much that burns more than losing your hard earned. That is a shocking bad run of luck mate and it has to get better. Im sure you are but it sounds like you should lend a close eye to your finances for a while. There is some scum out there


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## pdxplumber (Nov 21, 2009)

Wow. That's a lot of crap to have to deal with. You should be good for the next ten years. I hope nobody has to break out the fire arms. My hunch is the bookkeeper might be tied in to the break in.
Those types of a holes are rare. It would be weird to experience two different ones at the same time.


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## Adamche (Feb 10, 2012)

pdxplumber said:


> Wow. That's a lot of crap to have to deal with. You should be good for the next ten years. I hope nobody has to break out the fire arms. My hunch is the bookkeeper might be tied in to the break in.
> Those types of a holes are rare. It would be weird to experience two different ones at the same time.


Exactly what I thought, the bookkeeper may have knowledge of the break in, and the copper theft. Hope your luck improves


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

Look at the bright side
A you got your money back from the steel company with lesson learned.
B You gave that lady a chance she blew it now you know what to do so it wont happen agin.
C Your house and your family are safer now btw your home insurence probally went down with that alarm system 
D your dog didnt die (well i hope not ) 
You have to smile sometimes even when your day is shiot it will keep you younger and make life easier


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Adamche said:


> Exactly what I thought, the bookkeeper may have knowledge of the break in, and the copper theft. Hope your luck improves


Scrap theft was before she came along. Home break in might have been her dealer but I doubt it. The way we found out was a driver saw two black men (yes they were black and no I'm not a racist, I can't help what color they were) throw my fire safe out the window of their car. The good samaritan retrieved it found my address on a piece of paper inside, google mapped me and found my house was only a 1/2 mile away.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

revenge said:


> Look at the bright side
> A you got your money back from the steel company with lesson learned.
> B You gave that lady a chance she blew it now you know what to do so it wont happen agin.
> C Your house and your family are safer now btw your home insurence probally went down with that alarm system
> ...


I wish I knew what the lesson was with respect to my debit card. I still have no idea and may never know, how a business in mainland China obtained my info? Maybe the answer is don't use any kind of plastic payment, don't ever give your info over the phone, and never purchase anything online, unfortunately in the world we live in those days are gone forever. 

The dogs were out of town with my wife and kids at the time. They're worthless for home defense anyway. A couple of miniature long haired dachshunds who talk a big game when you're on the other side of the door but only ever growl when one tries to steal the others chewy. Ha!!! I even live with a pair of unrepentant thieves!!!


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## pdxplumber (Nov 21, 2009)

Good thing i'm a plumber and not a detective. Black or not, I still think they would some how be related. That's how my suspicious mind works. If i were in your situation I would probably spend way too much time trying to figure out who did what and how to get back at them. Probably best to forget it and move on. Easier to say than do.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

That is quite a series of unfortunate events. As if the recession and overall business environment hasn't been enough grief. People are desperate and do desperate things. I believe it will get worse before it gets better.

I wouldn't hold my breath for your bookkeeper to get what she deserves. The second guy who wrote checks on our account was finally caught and sentenced. Pled guilty, sentenced to five years, reduced to five years probation. :furious: Yep, bet he learned his lesson. 

IMO, the sad part is that more is lost than just the money, scrap, material possessions.

The next bookkeeper will be watched closely, though they have done nothing wrong.

The next person who makes a mistake, may not be afforded the second chance.

Home security is good, and guns may give you a sense of control and/or peace of mind, BUT you still have to deal with having your space violated. I cannot imagine being robbed, knowing someone was going through my things.

There is something to be said for "ignorance is bliss." Sadly, you are ignorant no more in such matters and never will be again. It becomes a part of who you are. Evil exists.

I do not like guns, never have. However, I am considering a Lady Smith and learning how to use it. We live in a crazy world.


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## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

5 years in Canada would be for murder not theft:blink:


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## Dun' Right (Sep 27, 2010)

There are few things in this world that I despise more than a thief. I just can't understand what gives somebody the self entitlement to take something that is not theirs, away from somebody who worked hard to have it. 

When the time comes that I find somebody who is stealing or has stolen from my family or myself, I just hope I can keep myself in check enough that I don't wind up going to prison/jail over some piece of sh*t. 

I have no respect, and no mercy whatsoever for a thief. 

I'm sorry this stuff happened to you. My philosophy on these kinds of things is, "Sometimes when you get **** on, you can come out smelling like a rose". Ironic for our kind of work. :laughing:

I hope the future has nothing but good things in store for you sir. 

End rant.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I caught a guy breaking in to my van last fall.

He still had the cast on his hand and lower arm several months later at his sentencing. He will have 3 hots and a cot at taxpayer expense for about 8 more years for the charges for the theft from me and others he already had pending when I caught him.

I like the cast iron heavy duty 24" Ridgid Pipe Wrenches... :thumbup:

I'm not sure why a junkie with 18 theft cases pending should be free on bond...
Obviously it is a danger to his health and well being... :whistling2:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

AKdaplumba said:


> 5 years in Canada would be for murder not theft:blink:


Forgery, removing from mailbox, amount over $5,000.00 may have something to do with it. IDK. Point is, he ended up with probation.

Glad I don't live in Canada. 5 years for murder? I thought Canada had greater respect for human life.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Sorry to hear about the bad run you're having. On top of it all, you say you've taken some bad checks from customers. Keep your chin up. It's only temporary; everything we go through is.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Hang in there bro. I'm glad your family is ok. Your story is earily similar to mine last year, including the irs putting a $10,000 levy on my acount for 3 months until we had to prove it was THERE mistake!


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

pdxplumber said:


> Wow. That's a lot of crap to have to deal with. You should be good for the next ten years. I hope nobody has to break out the fire arms. My hunch is the bookkeeper might be tied in to the break in.
> Those types of a holes are rare. It would be weird to experience two different ones at the same time.


That's exactly what I was thinking about the bookkeeper being part of the break ins. Sorry to hear about this, sometimes it's hard to control your anger in these situations but don't let yourself do anything stupid.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Damn man I hate that you got stolen from, I hope they catch them sons of a *****es that stole from you. 

And that bookkeeper can burn in hell. 

Hope you can get all this squared away.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Bad things happen to good people


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Hopefullyyour bad streak is over! I hate a thief!


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

About eight years ago my cousin's plumbing biz was robbed by his bookkeeper for about $40,000.

One of the supply houses lost their bookkeeper after the franchise was checking records. They didn't say exactly what happened, just that she didn't come back after the discovery was made.


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## Plumb-Rite (Apr 11, 2012)

*I am originally from Birmingham Alabama... Now I'm here in Illinois*

People are getting Bad Down There. I can't believe some of the stories I keep hearing. Its Crazy. I do Miss Alabama Though. I'm Ready to Come Home. How is Business Going? Is Business Good?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I keep a $700.00 a day limit on my debit card per day. I just call the bank and tell them to raise the limit and for how long when I need to. It's not that much of a hassle.


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## PlumberJake (Nov 15, 2010)

My bookkeeper has stolen all my MONEY!!!!!!













Of course, she also bore my children, cleans the house, cooks my meals, and pays the bills.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

This little county has seen more theft-by-bookkeeper, heroin sales, armed robberies, murder-by-familiars, etc., etc., in the last year. People are scared, people are hungry, people are losing.

Add the craziness to the normal big ticket customer service problems and it sucks.

What doesn't kill us, hurts like hell.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Titan Plumbing said:


> Sorry to hear about this.
> 
> There is NOTHING worse than a thief!


All due respect to Smellslike's situation, but can you say "Politician"? At least a thief is straight-forward in his/her intentions. To Smellslike: Try & refrain from pronouncing your intentions in a public forum. It may make a difference in the charge against you when, not if, the unfortunate @$$ who tries to take advantage of ya meets with your ire. Premeditation is not a good thing in criminal court. That said, I hope yer fortunes turn & karma sodomizes those who have wronged you brother.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Mississippiplum said:


> Damn man I hate that you got stolen from, I hope they catch them sons of a *****es that stole from you.
> 
> And that bookkeeper can burn in hell.
> 
> ...



Hard to take such a serious rant from someone STILL sitting on the crapper. :whistling2:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*who neeeds a bookkeeper*



ChrisConnor said:


> About eight years ago my cousin's plumbing biz was robbed by his bookkeeper for about $40,000.
> 
> One of the supply houses lost their bookkeeper after the franchise was checking records. They didn't say exactly what happened, just that she didn't come back after the discovery was made.


I have a company nearby that did kitchen cabinets and kitchen re-models...
the family had an old man that sort of ran things and he hired someone off
the street by recomendation of a freind of a freind that they were a good bookkeeper.... 

after 3 years the bookkeeper had a heart attack and while she
was in the hospital, they discovered that she had stolen more
than *120k* from them ... that is what they found....

the only reason they found out was because of her heart 
attack...... of course the money was never returned.. 
and she did a stint of 2 years in prison..

to me this is just plain stupid to trust some stranger and
let someone know all about your business, and trust them
to make cash deposits, forge checks,,,
and know all about your money and livelyhood...

the cabinet place has gone under since then

--------------------------------------------------------------

I have never understood the need for a bookkeeper...

I have an accountant that cost me about 2000 a year to do 
my year end taxes...... I hand them my quick books 
and they figure it out for me every year....

I have ADP payroll services to do my payroll and
deposit my fica tax withholdings for* 32 bucks a week*...

So if you have someone to do your taxes and payroll,, 
what does a bookkeeper do for you that QUICKBOOKS
cant do for you..by yourself.??

YES, I realize that quickbooks can also do payroll,
taxes and everything else too, but that is way far beyond my capabilities... 
I just use it for a running ledger and customer base file.
I admit to the whole wide world that I am too stupid to figure out Quickboooks

but I have figured out that I could lose or forget to send bills to a
lot of customers and still be ahead of the game if you are
paying some "theif secretary" only 20k a year. plus benefits... 

I could actually lose 10k a year in forgotten uncollected, unsent bills, 
I can just do the books myself, and still be ahead by 10k....... and that is not 
even factoring in the possibility of grand theft by the "theif " bookkeeper :thumbup::thumbup:


also if your " theif secretary" hangs you out to dry 
and quits you with only a day notice,
then you have her bookkeeping mess to figure out.... 


My bookkeeping mess is sitting on my desk right now.... 
and thats no problem for me:thumbup:


I hope the lady that you gave a second chance to gets some jail time.....
she deserves it...you are much nicer 
about this than I would have ever been to her...

I am thinking....... tar and feathers....


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## jc-htownplumber (Feb 29, 2012)

It's bs I had all my scrap stolen I pissed but at least they didn't do anything else then I notice some stuff from the back of my personal truck bed was stolen. We installed an alarm system two months later alarm is going off someone tried to break in alarm scared then off nothing was stolen but the window and some other stuff were broken 
Point is I have no time for a thief I work my ass for what I have and the state would save more money with a chunck if lead between the eyes than 3 hots and a cot 
So I don't blame you for how you feel


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*more dollars for advertiseing*

I hate to keep rambling on this subject and I am sorry.... but I keep comming up with more reasons to 
can the book-keeper....


another reason I dont have a book-keeper..

you still have got to check the bills every month
to make sure they are not paying some supply house for a mistaken bill...

Unless you train them to be plumbers and understand exactly what everything is and what 
you use it all for ..... the sky is the limit for billing mistakes


if the invoice says 2000 for 50 fluid master ballcocks
they will probably just pay the bill.. its not their money anyway and you are a dirty s.o.b anyway.. 
unless it all has to pass before your eyes and you sign the check this will certainly happen over and over...


also , if you cut out the bookkeeper that you cant
trust anyway ,,,,, you can spend more of that 
money towards advertiseing instead on her payroll
and benefit package... its a win .....win:thumbup:




so just do it yourself and
save yourself a lot of greif??


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> I hate to keep rambling on and I am sorry....
> 
> another reason I dont have a book-keeper..
> 
> ...


I could go on and on . . . most of your assumptions in the previous posts are grossly incorrect. 

When you are working with your tools, you are more than likely getting at least $75./hr. (likely $100 - $200./hr.) If you can get a decent bookkeeper for $25,000./yr, that works out to $12.50/hr. 

Seems silly to have someone worth $100/hr. doing $12.50/hr. work. Carry on.

Smellslike$$$ got burned because he failed to do certain things. I love when I read how a long time bookkeeper gets caught after keeping the books for multiple years. You need to know the red flags and implement safeguards. 

Here's one BIG RED FLAG

"My bookkeeper is so dedicated. He never takes time off."

Policy - every bookkeeper should be forced to take a weeks vacation (5 days at a time). Two 1 week vacations would be preferable. Bet you thought that was just a 'perk' for the overpaid office staff. 

Being out for 5 days, sandwiched between two weekends is 9 days. Mistakes and inconsistencies have a chance to come to light.

Bookkeeper should not be doing A/R & A/P. However, in a small office, a bookkeeper will likely do it all. Safeguard 1 - two party checks - duh. All checks presented for signature should have invoice or back-up documentation with the check to be signed. If it is too much trouble to spot check the back-up, might as well let your bookkeeper help himself to everything you have.

FOR ALL BUSINESS OWNERS - Imagine your business operating 100% in cash, no paper whatsoever. Who would miss a $50., $100., or even a $1,000.? in the scheme of things: Checks, bank statements etc. gives you a false sense of security. A smart bookkeeper can skim in more ways than you can imagine. 

Warning: Every time you pocket money from a cash job, you are teaching your bookkeeper to steal. It is no different. You steal from the IRS, and your bookkeeper steals from you. 

So, pots - quit calling the kettles black. :whistling2:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*I agree with you to a point*



Phat Cat said:


> I could go on and on . . . most of your assumptions in the previous posts are grossly incorrect.
> 
> When you are working with your tools, you are more than likely getting at least $75./hr. (likely $100 - $200./hr.) If you can get a decent bookkeeper for $25,000./yr, that works out to $12.50/hr.
> 
> ...


 
everyone has their own style of doing things,,,,and some lessons are hard ones to learn..... 

the best point you made here is keeping an eye on the money and making the bookkeeper present every check to the owner to sign... NO EXCEPTIONS
 letting anyone just write checks with no safe guards in place is just plain folly and its only a matter of time before they steal you blind........ 

also if they wish to steal , they will find a way to skim off the top and you will never know it for years if they are smart and do it right.... 

having to go over their work with a fine tooth comb while they are gone on vavation seems like an absolute pain in the neck to me.....
I just would rather spend my time doing it myself 
wether I am paid 100 per hour or whatever... 

what difference does it make if you are rakeing in a bundle if the bookkeeper is bleeding you dry for half of it behind your back....???? 

another topic that has not come up yet.....
if your young bookkeeper gets cosey with one of your employees then their is a good chance that everyone will know your business before too long....

I have seen this happen before..... 
pillow talk sinks ships .....:laughing::yes:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

None of the checks should be signed until they are filled out in full

I have had my problems with many book keepers 

Now this is all handled by the big boss... The wife

As for cash jobs ... Why would any one have to know about it

Just got to learn to keep your mouth shut


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## Plumb-Rite (Apr 11, 2012)

It all depends on which way you look at that. I consider that to be my money! Not the Governments! When they take it from me and give it to someone who don't do **** I consider it theft. Cash under the table is not theft. Biting the hand that feeds you is. Hell its okay to give the government some money. But all of it. You gotta save some money somewhere. Taxes are too high anyway. If you look at hiding your cash jobs from the government as stealing then you are looking at it backwards. Its your money and you earned it. You don't owe that to an unjust system that is totally corrupt from the bottom to the top. I don't believe in giving 30% of what I make to the Government. That belongs to me. Why should I have to pay more than the next guy. I believe that its bad for the economy to tax new businesses. That will just put them out of business before they can even get started. What is good for business is letting a company get established before you start taking all there money. They can't afford it when the 1st start out.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Plumb-Rite said:


> I don't believe in giving 30% of what I make to the Government.


Obviously your business is too small...
If your business had billions of dollars in profits the government wouldn't charge you money...
They would give it to you instead... :yes:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

> Master Mark said:
> 
> 
> > the best point you made here is keeping an eye on the money and making the bookkeeper present every check to the owner to sign... NO EXCEPTIONS
> ...


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Plumb-Rite said:


> It all depends on which way you look at that. I consider that to be my money! Not the Governments! When they take it from me and give it to someone who don't do **** I consider it theft. Cash under the table is not theft. Biting the hand that feeds you is. Hell its okay to give the government some money. But all of it. You gotta save some money somewhere. Taxes are too high anyway. If you look at hiding your cash jobs from the government as stealing then you are looking at it backwards. Its your money and you earned it. You don't owe that to an unjust system that is totally corrupt from the bottom to the top. I don't believe in giving 30% of what I make to the Government. That belongs to me. Why should I have to pay more than the next guy. I believe that its bad for the economy to tax new businesses. That will just put them out of business before they can even get started. What is good for business is letting a company get established before you start taking all there money. They can't afford it when the 1st start out.


I nominate the above comment as the dumbest EVER on PZ, bar none. By the way, you have a very nice looking website. :thumbup:

I'm quite certain Mr.Biz can explain it to you. :yes:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Phat Cat said:


> I nominate the above comment as the dumbest EVER on PZ, bar none. By the way, you have a very nice looking website. :thumbup:


:laughing:I wouldn't be surprised if he can check the visitor records of the website and see the Host Name of one of the visitors to his site is irs.gov... :laughing:

Ooops! :laughing:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*What is a bookkeeper worth???*



Phat Cat said:


> > BTW - Based on what you think a bookkeeper is worth, you have nothing to worry about as far as them skimming or stealing. For that rate, he wouldn't be smart enough to pull it off. You get what you pay for. LOL
> 
> 
> What is a trustworthy bookkeeper worth to a smal plumbing company anyway????
> ...


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> Phat Cat said:
> 
> 
> > It sounds like you are saying that if you are only paying them peanuts, that gives them the right and obligation to steal from you....:blink:
> ...


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## Plumb-Rite (Apr 11, 2012)

Redwood said:


> :laughing:I wouldn't be surprised if he can check the visitor records of the website and see the Host Name of one of the visitors to his site is irs.gov... :laughing:
> 
> Ooops! :laughing:


I gotta give it to you... that was funny! :laughing:.


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