# Charge or Don't Charge - Drain Cleaning Job



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

This is about a drain call I had to do today.

I'll post below what happened.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Would you of charged for this job?


Clogged lavatory drain

Clogged tub/shower drain


I get to the 2nd floor with my 81 with 1/4" open hook cable (smallest cable in drain cleaning) with the intention of getting the drain open.

1. The lavatory drain is made up of compression 90's and leaking chrome brass extensions, no way a cable "isn't" going to blow that contraption apart with those hard turns. Then the damn drain in the wall is up as high as mouth of the drain!!! 

2. Tub/Shower combo has that overflow where one screw is in the center, impossible to get the coil into the opening. Restricted access.

A. Attempted to go through the shoe of the tub and the cross bars are very solid, thick and I can't get the coil started to wind into the opening or the threaded hole where the lift n' turn drain shaft goes in.

B. Cable is open wind at the end, extremely pliable and if I can get it started, I normally force it through, no problems even though it will sound like it's going to break when it reaches that spot where it fast cones down to the 1/4" dimension.

C. I pull the panel off and see back in behind the tub. Long run of plastic piping ties into galvanized right at the opening, but I have no way to control the water expelling out of the piping when I let go of that connection.

I "could" of ragged the connection and had a large shop vac there to catch it, but I have no idea how much is in that line. It could be ugly with only one hand able to get inside this hole.

D. I instantly thought about removing the chrome drain piece that threads into the shoe, but the $79 steel tub has a serious rust spot about 3" covering a considerably large area around the lip of this chrome drain, and just a quick feel of the tub's steel with no porcelain, breakthrough is soon to come. I go removing that drain connection and can't get that to seal, because the less than 1/16" steel tub is rotted away? Bad situation with a customer possibly stating "well the tub didn't leak till you touched it" scenario.


So 2 drains I absolutely knew would turn into tragedies real quick if I start digging into this job.

I also even offered to snip off the end of my coiled cable *$75* and charge for the cable and go down with just the end bent slightly. That I know for a fact would of worked on the tub drain but not the lavatory. Lavatory was a cluster**** and replacement of the piping underneath was standard procedure.

I told the customer straight up; you need a tub, you need a "correct" fitting for the overflow so drain cleaning is simple, and you can kill a few birds with one stone if you do this right. I didn't offer my services to replace the tub, no way.

Just told her to get a good handyman and follow my advice.


What's so F'd up about this job is this is her mother's home, her daughter and her couple friends live there. 

The vanity stopped working 6 months ago, the tub? 4 months ago. They've been bucketing the water out of the tub into the toilet after they get done taking a shower. >??? 

Of course, this was in a blighted area down in covington, no parking either. Had to cross 4 lanes of traffic jaywalking with my drain machine in hand.


I did not get it open for the above reasons, they didn't want to pay for a cable to "attempt" to clear the drain. More than likely, that galvy drain line is 100% thick clogged, no doubt. 

Had 40 minutes involved and backed up to my 2nd call not even 4 city blocks away. Customer was very thankful for my openness and explaining what should be done.

I "could" of expanded this job in a big way, quick as I could of made it accidental but that shines on being inexperienced. That won't happen on my count.

You think anyone should walk away without charging?


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

at the cheapest $ 40 bucks you can out and gave helpful suggestions . when you look at this call at the end of the year or month you will see that you lost money


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

Our job as service plumbers is not only to repair but to diagnose the problem. You evaluated the job and realized that if you did it it would cost more than what they thought it would due to the fact that it had handy hack plumbing in it. You made them aware of their problem and gave your professional advice. Your professionalism comes from years of training and that does not come free. Charge them what you would normally charge. If they choose not to follow your advice then that is their problem not yours.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Have you ever removed the cable from your drain machine and turned it around to the bare end? Thats what i would have done and not offered to cut my cable. BUT I use a hand operated 1/4" marco cable for fixture arms.,...not an electric machine.


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## Nevada Plumber (Jan 3, 2009)

I don't understand what kind of cable you use that couldn't pass through one of those overflows with the screw in the center. I'd say over 95% of the tub overflows in my town have that overflow, and my 5/16" Ridgid cable goes right pass them. I would have charged them something for my time.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Nevada Plumber said:


> I don't understand what kind of cable you use that couldn't pass through one of those overflows with the screw in the center. I'd say over 95% of the tub overflows in my town have that overflow, and my 5/16" Ridgid cable goes right pass them. I would have charged them something for my time.


What I don't understand is why he bothered typing all that stuff and just didn't make a video and post it on youtube.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

I would've un assembled the undersink lav drain(and fixed the leaks as well) and snaked it from there. In my area, the 2 are often tied into each other and it's often just one stoppage. Can't say it's the same for your situation. Also haven't had any problems snaking through an overflow with a center screw.


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## SummPlumb (Feb 19, 2010)

You have to charge something. They put themselves in that situation. At least 1/2 service call charge.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Gotta charge for some time. Even when a Doctor can't fix you, they still charge for the diagnosis.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Nevada Plumber said:


> I don't understand what kind of cable you use that couldn't pass through one of those overflows with the screw in the center. I'd say over 95% of the tub overflows in my town have that overflow, and my 5/16" Ridgid cable goes right pass them. I would have charged them something for my time.


 
Show me the end of your cable, and I'll show you mine.




ChrisConnor said:


> What I don't understand is why he bothered typing all that stuff and just didn't make a video and post it on youtube.


The 2nd drain call last night at midnight, I did...will be on youtube someday this week.




TheMaster said:


> Have you ever removed the cable from your drain machine and turned it around to the bare end? Thats what i would have done and not offered to cut my cable. BUT I use a hand operated 1/4" marco cable for fixture arms.,...not an electric machine.


Nope, too much work. Hand operated? I already knew there was 7' of piping before hitting the clog.




gear junkie said:


> I would've un assembled the undersink lav drain(and fixed the leaks as well) and snaked it from there. In my area, the 2 are often tied into each other and it's often just one stoppage. Can't say it's the same for your situation. Also haven't had any problems snaking through an overflow with a center screw.


If I snapped a picture you would of seen why I didn't touch it. I would of had to incorrectly put a trap in wrong to make it work with the opening in the wall so high.

I've opened 100's of drains, daily with this 1/4" open hook cable. 

I told her I could not guarantee the effectiveness of the cut end of cable to clean the drain the "right" way either. That's being honest.

My cable is bent at almost a 45 degree angle after the 6" of open wind. That cable will clean a pipe better than most with how aggressive it is.

I charged $50 for my time. I let her make her own cost on that one. I wasn't leaving without anything, but I felt I owed her the reduced rate implying she's going to be spending money soon to fix it all.

Even told her about those cables you buy at the hardware store, but they don't have the same strength as my professional equipment does. 

If that tub didn't have such a huge rust spot around the shoe I wouldn't of even started the thread; would of got it open without issue. Just had too many variables that could snowball into job security but could look intentional to the property owner. 

I side with caution on these because it's a protection of one's best interest.


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## Nevada Plumber (Jan 3, 2009)

OK, after much searching, I found a very similar picture of my cable online. 



I run this on a Ridgid 5/16" cable in a Ridgid K39. I put a bend in the cable about two inches behind the end of this to try and make it clean the sides of the pipe better.

I also found that if you do a google image search for Ridgid K39 cable, Service Guy's website is the second image to appear.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Just like a sectional cable, the end of my cable can maneuver the toughest traps because it's pliable.​


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

My hand operated 1/4" cable has about 25-30' on it. I dont use that much of the cable for fixture arms.....8'-12' is all I will usually put into a fixture arm. You did more wokr by hauling your electric machine in than i would have have done with my hand operated machine. They cost about 75.00 and it comes with a cable. I'm not trying to have a pissing match,I'm just saying for 75.00 you might should give it a try. If you buy one and dont like it .....I'll buy it from you for what you paid for it...hows that for an offer? marco makes it.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I cant figure out the narrow minded poll suggesting that a religious person would give it away because they need a friend???????? Benny Hinn took in $300 million in one year being "religious"...Dunbar .;..stop listening to youself so carefully...geesh...

Now to answer the question...a show up fee is in order..you did a lot of diagnostics to not collect something.

BTW I learned a little about polling in Sociology. A girl and I did a survey on premarital sex...and the questions were fair and balanced...and thought provoking. We got an A.


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## Bonafide (Feb 24, 2010)

I was in this same situation 2 days ago. I charged them full price, not thinking they would call back for the rest of the repairs but sure enough i got a call from them less than a week later.


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> My hand operated 1/4" cable has about 25-30' on it. I dont use that much of the cable for fixture arms.....8'-12' is all I will usually put into a fixture arm. You did more wokr by hauling your electric machine in than i would have have done with my hand operated machine. They cost about 75.00 and it comes with a cable. I'm not trying to have a pissing match,I'm just saying for 75.00 you might should give it a try. If you buy one and dont like it .....I'll buy it from you for what you paid for it...hows that for an offer? marco makes it.



can you post a link to it. I am interested in what you are using


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## 130 PLUMBER (Oct 22, 2009)

are price is for an attempt to restore flow no matter of the out come:yes:


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## 130 PLUMBER (Oct 22, 2009)

i've have been very lucky in all my years that i haven't ever had that issue


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

affordabledrain said:


> can you post a link to it. I am interested in what you are using


 
I'm thinking TM is talking about the second machine down this page


http://www.marcosnakes.com/hardware.htm


Probably a good thing to have on the truck even if you don't use it much. I use a General drill snake but you never know...








Paul


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

stillaround said:


> I cant figure out the narrow minded poll suggesting that a religious person would give it away because they need a friend???????? Benny Hinn took in $300 million in one year being "religious"...Dunbar .;..stop listening to youself so carefully...geesh...


 
The goal is offend at least everyone, once to bring full attention to the details. :laughing:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

*Threw in the towel today*

I got sick and Fing tired of running drains today. My job today I'm posting pictures of just made me toss 3 other ones for tomorrow and first of next week.

Don't need them, tired of wearing black water and tired of the cleanup. I got so much to do right now including I'm already covered in work next week, to hell with it. *I'm done.* I've officially reached burnout stage on drain cleaning this week. I've taken probably 14 showers in 7 days given how nasty some were. 

Screw it, it's someone elses turn to play in the crap.


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## leak1 (Mar 25, 2009)

comn on Dunbar !!!!!! dont quit !!! quitters never win. :surrender::surrender:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> The goal is offend at least everyone, once to bring full attention to the details. :laughing:


:blink: brilliantly executed...whatever happens is part of your plan


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I got sick and Fing tired of running drains today. My job today I'm posting pictures of just made me toss 3 other ones for tomorrow and first of next week.
> 
> Don't need them, tired of wearing black water and tired of the cleanup. I got so much to do right now including I'm already covered in work next week, to hell with it. *I'm done.* I've officially reached burnout stage on drain cleaning this week. I've taken probably 14 showers in 7 days given how nasty some were.
> 
> Screw it, it's someone elses turn to play in the crap.


I wish you were in my area...I'd take ALL of your drain work for you. I love it. You just gotta have the right equipment, and a strong back.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Well,

Something is up because for years I've had no issues with running drains, but these past few weeks have tested my patience too much.

I talked to the guy I've spun off maybe 8 calls in the past month and I asked him if he's seeing more root bound drains.

He didn't think so, but he mentioned that too often people are waiting considerably longer before calling someone to clean those drains, which makes the task quite a bit more difficult.


I'm just not feeling the love from the drains like I used to...go in and bang it open and boom; on to the next job. My equipment never changed, just getting a rash of jobs that don't offer the quick open and go. Even though I'm charging, I'm burning off hours that I can use for other things instead of fighting the drain. 

Taking the weekend or month off sounds like a plan. :yes:


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## rickmccarthy (Jul 20, 2009)

I have done this all to often although I am of the mindset that I need to charge for my time and I know I lost money Unfortunately when I get in that situation I always walk away hoping they appreciate the advice and will call again when they can use me. Probably not but thats what I tell myself and I need everycall that comes in Unlike you it sounds like Dunbar Congrats on all the great biz.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Well,
> 
> 
> 
> Taking the weekend or month off sounds like a plan. :yes:


 Why dont you write a book ...I can help with the title.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

stillaround said:


> Why dont you write a book ...I can help with the title.


 
That's a deal! As much as I write I'm sure I could put one together in short form. 



The two calls I spun off for today? The one outside drain that leads to the road curb for the stairwell? My drain guy couldn't get 8' one direction, 45' the other and hit clay, lots of clay. He seems to think they cheated on that drain and hooked to the footer drain.

It's a dig job, and I've told my customers before that most if not always if I can't get it open, it's never good and leads to pipe replacement. 

The other call was a drain backup that was clogged solid before it went to the main, full of food. Cable would kick and run towards the kitchen sink, it was packed that freaking hard. :blink:

Both jobs satisfy my being anxious about what I was dealing with, but the patience has been wearing thin.

Gotta figure out the alternatives to make this work with an exposed discharge that won't freeze when it matters.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Just found out another job I did last week, couldn't open, collapsed at the main. Guy took his equipment and couldn't get past the same spot, 56' and that's right in the same place I couldn't maneuver past.

I'm going to make these guys a mint between the two calls this digging crew is going to take on.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> That's a deal! As much as I write I'm sure I could put one together in short form.


 Okay try one of these themes....:jester:
The power of internal focus or Circular thinking..

or

More than one way to use a bottle and other plumbing service insights...

how about

10 ways to blow off a customer and have them come back begging for more


( okay Steve its just about of my system.. )


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## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

Dont worry Dunbar for jobs like that I have a little song that rings in my head ''The Gambler"" you gota know when to hold um , when to fold um when to walk away?? AND WHEN TO RUN!!!!!


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

2 of the 3 drain calls I tossed have backhoes showing up by friday.




3 drain cleaning companies after me, none of them can open them up. That makes me feel *really* good.

Got one thursday I know is going to suck, bad and if I can't get it open I'm instantly telling the woman to listen clearly, understand, let us get the pipe out (laundry tub/kitchen sink drain combo) and make it a memory.

Got one friday that a bath group is draining slow, but I think it's individual to each other the way it was described.


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