# Another Pex Leak



## gilbertjeffrey (Mar 6, 2011)

Posted a few months back, I think April, where I found a leak at a bend support got this call today water coming into the kitchen. Leaking from the lavatory cold line running along the bottom steel track and manifesting at the kitchen. The building probably 6 years old now, and had another call Saturday that I need to return to where the water coming out of the sleeve they ran the pex in. This one took priority because the leak was far worse and causing damage. The other is a small leak and they leave the water off and depressurize the system. I think after finding this today I’m gonna open the wall at the manifold and see if the colored pipe leaking and running into the sleeve. The in slab stuff non color coated and they switched to the colored stuff above slab. So far three leaks, all cold side, and the two I have found the culprit have been at the bend support. The leak area is discolored and slight rust color.


----------



## northplm (Jul 11, 2021)

Looks like that says it's PEX-a? What brand are you using? It's funny I was just having a conversation with another plumber, he was asking me my opinion on stubbing out at fixtures using those bend supports vs. 90s, he says everyone around here uses bend supports for a reason, they are perfectly safe. I told him I only use 90s, I said bend supports MIGHT be perfectly safe but the thought of it sends shivers down my spine and in my opinion in 15-20 years we are going to have entire subdivisions and developments springing leaks at those bends left and right. I really think even with such a harsh bend the pipe should go more than a few years, so I don't know if there's something in the water or if it's defective pipe, but I certainly don't think it's a coincidence that it keeps happening at a bend support.


----------



## KCPlumb (Oct 26, 2021)

Hot run, cold run? Also who's the manufacturer of the pipe?


----------



## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Are the leaks mainly happening on the long side of the bend? Looks like it in these pictures. Maybe pex doesn't like that kind of stretching type of stress.


----------



## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Uponor leaks in my area all the time. Takes about 10 years or so then the leaks start. In that pic looks like Uponor, and the wrong bend support(white one). PEX B of any brand outlast Uponor in my area, yet all the plumbers here install Uponor. good job security.


----------



## northplm (Jul 11, 2021)

Will said:


> Uponor leaks in my area all the time. Takes about 10 years or so then the leaks start. In that pic looks like Uponor, and the wrong bend support(white one). PEX B of any brand outlast Uponor in my area, yet all the plumbers here install Uponor. good job security.


That's funny, around here I've never seen a leak on Uponor but I've seen lots of problems with various brands of PEX-b, I wonder what the difference is.


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

northplm said:


> That's funny, around here I've never seen a leak on Uponor but I've seen lots of problems with various brands of PEX-b, I wonder what the difference is.



Plenty of guys have posted failed Pex-A here. There are several threads on it. It's almost always Uponor/Wirsbo.

We use Viega brand. Up until recently we used their Fostapex(Aluminum skinned) almost exclusively for potable. They discontinued production so we have switched to standard Viega pex in red/black/blue. The only issues I have seen with Viega pex is rodents chewing through the non aluminum skinned version.


----------



## northplm (Jul 11, 2021)

skoronesa said:


> Plenty of guys have posted failed Pex-A here. There are several threads on it. It's almost always Uponor/Wirsbo.
> 
> We use Viega brand. Up until recently we used their Fostapex(Aluminum skinned) almost exclusively for potable. They discontinued production so we have switched to standard Viega pex in red/black/blue. The only issues I have seen with Viega pex is rodents chewing through the non aluminum skinned version.


Yeah, I've seen the threads, I don't know what it's like in other parts of the country but around here the only PEX-a that really gets used is Rehau and Uponor/Wirsbo. I've never seen either leak, but Rehau seems pretty new to the market, I've only seen it in the last 5 years, there's a large new residential contractor that started using recently. Time will tell how it fares, I have seen it installed and it does seem pretty idiot proof as far as the installation goes. Most PEX failures I see are installer error, forgetting to crimp a ring, not setting the Uponor fitting in far enough, a crimp ring getting crushed or bent, etc. Rehau seems almost impossible to "forget" or scew up a joint, although I'm sure someone will find a way. I will say I have seen PEX get pinholes on recirculating lines which is something it was supposed to have copper beat on. Again, in my area any time it's got pinhole leaks or the pipe itself has failed, it's PEX-b which makes me wonder if it's something in the water that causes different PEX to fail in different areas. Could just all be coincidental/anecdotal.

When you say they discontinued production of Fostapex is that a temporary thing due to general supply chain/labor issues, or are they flat out done making Fostapex? As far as the Viega stuff goes, I would hardly consider rodents a brand specific issue, that's more of a PEX issue in general, although not one I've ever encountered in my neck of the woods either, our rats must be well behaved.


----------



## gilbertjeffrey (Mar 6, 2011)

I didn’t do the install, it’s a 40 or story high rise. Was installed my one of the major Union outfits. Pipe is Uponor


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

northplm said:


> ....
> When you say they discontinued production of Fostapex is that a temporary thing due to general supply chain/labor issues, or are they flat out done making Fostapex? As far as the Viega stuff goes, I would hardly consider rodents a brand specific issue, that's more of a PEX issue in general......


Rodents don't harm Fostapex, they only chew off the thin outer layer of plastic and stop at the aluminum. Seen that several times.

In my experience, rodents chew pex/pvc/abs to get past it, not for any other reason. 

Yes, they discontinued Fostapex. We bought as much as we could stand to store at the shop. The machines that make Fostapex are more profitable if they are used to make regular pex. Fostapex is a niche product.


----------



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

gilbertjeffrey said:


> Posted a few months back, I think April, where I found a leak at a bend support got this call today water coming into the kitchen. Leaking from the lavatory cold line running along the bottom steel track and manifesting at the kitchen. The building probably 6 years old now, and had another call Saturday that I need to return to where the water coming out of the sleeve they ran the pex in. This one took priority because the leak was far worse and causing damage. The other is a small leak and they leave the water off and depressurize the system. I think after finding this today I’m gonna open the wall at the manifold and see if the colored pipe leaking and running into the sleeve. The in slab stuff non color coated and they switched to the colored stuff above slab. So far three leaks, all cold side, and the two I have found the culprit have been at the bend support. The leak area is discolored and slight rust color.
> View attachment 131107
> 
> View attachment 131108
> ...


Use Zurn pex and be a hero,also get rid of the useless expensive bend supports,they are useless and you see what they are good for,a leak


----------



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

gilbertjeffrey said:


> I didn’t do the install, it’s a 40 or story high rise. Was installed my one of the major Union outfits. Pipe is Uponor


Union installed,theres your answer right there lololololololo


----------



## gilbertjeffrey (Mar 6, 2011)

Ok, went back today to a unit I had been to Saturday, this one the leak was coming out of the slab, the in slab piping is the white pipe ran in corrugated colored sleeves. This one ended up being the white pipe leaking where it bent to come out of the floor. The nice thing about the sleeves is I was able to pull it all out and hopefully push a new pex line thru.


----------



## gilbertjeffrey (Mar 6, 2011)

So all leaks have been occur at a point where there is tension forces applied by the bend and the pipe has either weakened over time or been attacked to the point where it’s letting go.


----------



## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

The leaks I see on Uponor is on the piping, not the connections. Hot water mostly and and lot of recirculating lines. I have seen it leak on non recirculating lines too. The pipe usually changes color and get "black" spots on it almost like it gets mold/bacteria growing inside the wall of the Uponor piping.


----------



## gilbertjeffrey (Mar 6, 2011)

Will said:


> The leaks I see on Uponor is on the piping, not the connections. Hot water mostly and and lot of recirculating lines. I have seen it leak on non recirculating lines too. The pipe usually changes color and get "black" spots on it almost like it gets mold/bacteria growing inside the wall of the Uponor piping.


This pipe has similar spotting all along it as well, brown in my case, the leak spot is similarly discolored


----------



## northplm (Jul 11, 2021)

Well none of what I'm seeing here makes me ever want to use Uponor.


----------



## KCPlumb (Oct 26, 2021)

This may have been posted before, doesn't look good for Uponor.
discontinued-red-blue-uponor-pex-piping-plagued-by-cracking-defect-class-action-alleges


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Will said:


> ...........The pipe usually changes color and get "black" spots on it almost like it gets mold/bacteria growing inside the wall of the Uponor piping.


Mold/bacteria can be a real issue with pex of any kind, just like it is with steel. Copper is naturally anti-microbial so it usually has less issues.

Plastic is porous. Red/white/blue pex lets sunlight in which can contribute to bacterial growth.


----------



## northplm (Jul 11, 2021)

‘Discontinued’ Red, Blue Uponor Pex Piping Plagued by Cracking Defect, Class Action Alleges


A class action alleges blue- and red-colored cross-linked polyethylene tubing (PEX) made by Uponor is defective and prone to premature degradation, deterioration and failure.




www.classaction.org





Didn’t see this posted here anywhere else, looks like there’s a class action lawsuit out of Colorado against uponor, alleging a poor manufacturing technique causss the blue and red colored PEX to leak. I remember hearing Uponor stopped making the blue and red stuff, story I was told was supply chain issues, focusing on just one pipe, etc etc. looks like there may have been more to it. There was a post in here a while back about red uponor leaking and appearing cracked, it sounded like the Wirsbo was going to pay for a full replacement.


----------



## gilbertjeffrey (Mar 6, 2011)

Interesting thoughts on the growth, all this pipe however is in wall and fed from copper risers from the building. And I did read the lawsuit thing before I pulled out this last stretch that was leaking on the clear stuff. 
Got ahold of the Uponor rep today and he wants samples sent in so they can get lab tested. Will post how that turns out.


----------



## CentralPlumbing (Jan 22, 2009)

Maybe this pipe is being left out in the sun by the plumbers or the suppliers before it is installed. We are seeing leaks as early as 3 years on polyethylene piping. Brand new custom homes are flooding because of breaks above the slab. They sometimes leave the pipes exposed after the slab is poured.

Central Plumbing Albuquerque


----------



## gilbertjeffrey (Mar 6, 2011)

I have no idea as to the treatment of the pipe prior to closing of the walls. This is in a 40 story tower, and from what I can tell from seeing the others go up around here, the time that elapsed between rough and trim wasn’t too long. Also, the rough plumbing was the clear stuff that they ran in the blue and red sleeves, and I did have one of three leaks in that material. The other two were on blue pipe installed after rough when I’m pretty sure the studs and exterior cladding had already been installed. If the pipe sat on a pallet in the sun at the warehouse or the contractors yard will probably never be known but is a possibility. I truly hope the cause is determined, I put this stuff in my house. I got some sections that are around the same vintage, I’m going to check it out.


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

CentralPlumbing said:


> Maybe this pipe is being left out in the sun by the plumbers or the suppliers before it is installed. We are seeing leaks as early as 3 years on polyethylene piping. Brand new custom homes are flooding because of breaks above the slab. They sometimes leave the pipes exposed after the slab is poured.
> 
> Central Plumbing Albuquerque



What kind of pex? Not all pex is the same.

Thus far all of the issues reported on here have been with expanding pex aka Uponor/Wirsbo. Do you have pictures?


----------



## gilbertjeffrey (Mar 6, 2011)

Uponor, pics on page 1


----------



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

gilbertjeffrey said:


> Uponor, pics on page 1


I know about your pex, I was asking @CentralPlumbing


----------



## gilbertjeffrey (Mar 6, 2011)

Rodger


----------



## Dpeckplb (Sep 20, 2013)

had a few leaks in uponor pipe that was burried in a slab. Great way to spend a Friday night.


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

northplm said:


> …but Rehau seems pretty new to the market, I've only seen it in the last 5 years, there's a large new residential contractor that started using recently...


They started their method of PEX sleeve fittings/pipe in the 1980’s in the heating sector. I bought my first Rehau sleeve tool and fittings in the early 1990’s. I’d still use it, but it‘s very bulky for my repair/service field. Still by far the most solid PEX system that‘s ever hit the planet. They do have better tools nowadays, but I’m not in that realm anymore.


----------

