# Got my Certificate today!



## curtis2kul (Sep 14, 2008)

I got my NC residential fire sprinkler contractor license today in the mail! Im ready to tackle my first job asap! I look forward to talks with others about fire sprinklers!


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## clarkplumber562 (May 9, 2010)

curtis2kul said:


> I got my NC residential fire sprinkler contractor license today in the mail! Im ready to tackle my first job asap! I look forward to talks with others about fire sprinklers!


What code do you all go by?


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## sprinklertech (Oct 24, 2010)

curtis2kul said:


> I got my NC residential fire sprinkler contractor license today in the mail! Im ready to tackle my first job asap! I look forward to talks with others about fire sprinklers!


Good deal, congrats!

I am sure there are others but you're the first I've met.

*http://www.nclicensing.org/*



> During 2009, a number of proposed rule changes were published, a public hearing was held, and the rules were approved by the North Carolina Rules Review Commission. As a result, new rules regarding licensing have been published and became effective in 2010. Many of the new rules became effective as of January 1st, with others effective on July 1st. You may click here to read the new rules. Please note that rules that were not revised during this process will remain as published in the current Edition (October, 2007) of the Laws & Rules (commonly referred to as "the green book".) You may click here to download a copy of the new rules that can be inserted into the current Laws & Rules book. The next revision of the book will occur in 2011, and will include the new rules.​ Two important changes became effective on July 1, 2010.
> - Many of the fees charged by the Board increased slightly.
> - *The Board began issuing licenses for the recently created Residential Fire Sprinkler Installation Contractor. *
> Click here for more information regarding the licensing requirements.


I noted you have to be a licensed plumber and sit through a two day course. I am interested in what the course covered.

What about plan approvals?


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

*Loosers arent quiters and dont trust *******

WTG dude! Wish you the best. :whistling2:


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Congrats to you curtis2kul.


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## sprinklertech (Oct 24, 2010)

clarkplumber562 said:


> What code do you all go by?


A note about codes.

Most southern states are under the International Building Code and as with any code I am familiar with they tell you in what buildings sprinklers are required but you will find little, if anything, about how to place or space sprinkler heads.

There are a couple of very minor exceptions mostly having to do with sprinklers at the bottom of an elevator shaft or placement in an elevator equipment or electrical equipment room. That's just about it.

What they do is make the NFPA standards part of the code by adoption. As far as sprinklers in one and two family residences the residential building code will adopt NFPA #13D by reference.

About the only thing the residential building code will say about sprinklers is that they must be installed and use NFPA #13D to do it.

For crossing jurisdictional boundaries we sprinkler people are rather fortunate. The sprinkler system I design and install in New York is *exactly *the same as the sprinkler system I would install in Los Angeles, Detroit or Fargo, North Dakota. 

Indeed the NFPA standards are used in Australia, Thailand, China and Germany. The sprinkler system installed in Australia will look exactly like the system installed in your town. The design criteria, pipe sizes required, spacing and hanging methods are all the same.

Compared to plumbers I got it pretty easy.

Unlike many other trades you will also find local code officials are loath to use their "authority having jurisdiction" to deviate from the standards. There's just to much liability there if they are wrong. They know this. To those of you who obtain a license it will grow on you that you can do work in a town 50 or 100 miles away and the design and installation will be exactly the same.

The only thing I can see that will vary among different jurisdictions is metering requirements, backflow prevention and connections to the domestic water system. Once you start installation of the sprinkler system itself it will per the NFPA #13D standard.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

curtis2kul said:


> I got my NC residential fire sprinkler contractor license today in the mail! Im ready to tackle my first job asap! I look forward to talks with others about fire sprinklers!


 

Congratulations. When my master plumbing license was given to me by the state, I was very pleased that day. It's a good feeling to have all the tests behind yourself.


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## curtis2kul (Sep 14, 2008)

sprinklertech said:


> Good deal, congrats!
> 
> I am sure there are others but you're the first I've met.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks! The required course is pretty basic. You go over nfpa13d and look at a few piping examples, watch a few videos, and talk with a nicet designer about layouts. The class was interesting.


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

belated congrats. I am also in NC and am hoping to get the cert., however i haven't had my plumbers license long enough yet. have u had much demand for it yet


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## hepco (Jul 29, 2008)

Congrats Curtis,

I actually got mine back in August. The response I get is very disturbing though. It cost too much or why would you want pipe in your ceiling or someone will hit a sprinkler, break it and flood your house. Im building now and Im going to install a system in my house. It will be my first - just waiting for the system to be designed. I believe it is the Home Builders Association that is putting up a big fight against it.How are people responding to sprinklers in your area. 

On a more serious note, I am a volunteer fireman and this year alone we have had two fatalities in two separate incedents in house fires. I look at both situations and think both would have survived posibly with no injuries if the houses had sprinkers


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## sprinklertech (Oct 24, 2010)

hepco said:


> Congrats Curtis,
> 
> I actually got mine back in August. The response I get is very disturbing though. It cost too much or why would you want pipe in your ceiling or someone will hit a sprinkler, break it and flood your house. Im building now and Im going to install a system in my house. It will be my first - just waiting for the system to be designed. I believe it is the Home Builders Association that is putting up a big fight against it.How are people responding to sprinklers in your area.
> 
> On a more serious note, I am a volunteer fireman and this year alone we have had two fatalities in two separate incedents in house fires. I look at both situations and think both would have survived posibly with no injuries if the houses had sprinkers


Nearly certain they would have survived without injuries.

*Scottsdale Report 15 Year Data Now Available*



> In Scottsdale, Arizona, a sprinkler ordinance was implemented on January 1, 1986. Ten years after the ordinance was passed, the Rural/Metro Fire Department published the Scottsdale Report. *The study has now been updated to include 5 additional years of data.*
> 
> 41,408 homes, more than 50 percent of the homes in Scottsdale, are protected with fire sprinkler systems.
> 
> ...


Being in the fire service I think you'd agree that if someone wants to see real water damage take a look at what the fire department can do with a couple 2 1/2" hose streams. Not only does it get the drywall wet depending on the nozzle setting they can blow holes right through walls. Wet the house from end to end.

The home builders association is fighting this like crazy... anytime you hear of costs $5,000, $10,000 or even $20,000 you can be sure it came out of the home builders association.


It simply has no basis in fact. Non whatsoever UNLESS they are taking a standard full 13 system attempting to use the price that system generates against a residence. 

It's like me claiming the Taj Mahal is built of marble at a cost of $3,000 per sq. ft. therefore if you have granite counter tops a 2,000 sq. ft. home will cost you $6 million.

Take a 2,000 sq. ft. home in a cold climate and equip it with a full NFPA #13 system designed for a light hazard occupancy and I can see costs rising to $6,000 to $10,000. But comparing this to a residential system is like comparing apples and rotten tomatoes.

What would make the difference? In a full 13 system I would sprinkler everything... every closet, every bathroom, the crawl space below (yes, if it is accessible or, even it if isn't, if it has electrical and/or plumbing you betcha it would be required) and don't forget the unheated attic and garage.

The unheated attic will take a dry pipe system and plastic isn't allowed.. you are using steel and with a density of .10 gpm over 1,500 sq. ft. you would be looking at a 4" water supply to the house (around 200 gallons here) and don't forget the 100 gpm hose stream allowance that isn't required in an NFPA 13D residential system.

Between the alarm valve, 4" backflow preventor, dry pipe valve, compressor, fire department connection (it would be over 20 heads so it would be required) and to top that all of don't forget the IBC required central station monitoring alarm that will cost $2,000 to $3,000 to install plus the $25 per month monitoring fee plus the $30 per month cost to have an additional phone line. If you have an approved central station alarm (IBC requires it, it isn't a cheap Brinks home security system) you have to have a minimum of two phone lines.

*Post to long. See part II*


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## sprinklertech (Oct 24, 2010)

*Part II (Continued from previous post).*

Yeah, for a full 13 compliant system I could see $15,000 (or more) but the whole reason 13d was written was to make it affordable. 

The difference between a standard and residential system is standard systems are meant to save property while the residential system is designed only to prevent flashover giving occupants time to escape. We don't care if the building burns down we want to save lives but most often the sprinklers either put the fire out or contain it until the fire department arrives. The way to look at having it put the fire out is an added benefit. A freebie.

Unless you are in the business most people have little idea how devastating flash over is. When it happens it is fast. It is like the inside of the house explode on you.

Another tactic home builders love to use is the argument of not enough public water... how you have to put in a tank and pump etc. I have seen some claim how you would need a automatic generator with power transfer switch... all this is pure nonsense that has no basis in fact.

So you are in the desert, you don't have a big well and without public water what do you do?

One way around it is to try the *13D Home Defender* by ITT. *The first UL Listed pump specifically for 13D residential fire pump service.*:thumbup: Yeah guys, if you run into a problem this is what you want... while the listing isn't required it is really nice to have.

I don't know what they cost but they aren't all that much. You use house electrical and an alternate source of electric (such as a generator) is not required.

Problems? Maybe the city wants an outrageous tapping fee... tell them to take a hike and you'll put in your own water supply. Maybe you got to bore a four lane highway... at least you know it is there.

About tanks. Tanks do not have to be listed and they don't have to be big. On single story homes not exceeding 2,000 sq. ft. a 7 minute supply is required while a 10 minute supply is required for larger and two story homes.


Typically you can get the demand down to 24 to 26 gpm depending on the heads and spacing selected. If really squeezed you can get it down as low as 18 gpm but let's go withthe 26. 7*26=182 gallons while 10*26=260 gallons. These are not large tanks. 260 gallons is only 35 cubic fee... 2'-0"x2'-0"x6'-8" high is not a large tank. You could fit the entire thing, pump, tank and all, in a small 2'-0"x5'-0" closet for heavens sake.

The tanks do not have to be listed... they just have to hold water.

*Interesting article here*.

I think you can get a self contained water supply complete for maybe $2,000? 

Opps... forgot... of course these can not be interconnected to the potable water supply. I don't consider it a big deal myself but watch your license restrictions.

The whole argument about a generator is bogus. I do full 13 systems all the time with fire pumps and never have to worry about a transfer switch until it is a genuine high rise building (That is defined as anything with the top floor higher than 70' above the lowest part of fire department access). I have lots of four story buildings with fire pumps that do not have alternate power sources.

About the 70' for you sticklers that want to get me. I can't remember (to lazy to look it up) if the IBC defines high rise as 65', 70' or 75' but it is one of those. I think the BOCA code defines it as 65'. Anyway, it is a multi-story building. I don't know everything but I do know where to look it up.

But in closing I can not imagine a residential sprinkler system costing more than $4,500 under the worst (no water) conditions in a typical 2,000 to 3,000 sq. ft. home. I really can't.

The plus on a self contained water supply is if something did break the most water you'd get would be limited to the size of the tank.

What I always did with tanks is once a month I'd throw a cup of bleach in to keep the scum down.


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## hepco (Jul 29, 2008)

I think maybe a common misconception about sprinklers is their purpose. In a commercial environment sprinklers are meant to save property thus the large amount of water needed to operate the system. A residential systems sole purpose is to save lives and can operate on the water flow that a residential plumbing system provides. Now if the residence is saved, great. The sprinkler system operates at a lower temperature than commercial. Most fires are contained with two or less sprinklers. Only the sprinkler or sprinklers that are closest to the fire are activated unlike you see in the movies where they all come on at once. Some of the scenerios I have seen has the fire department responding on scene in 10 minute...I believe this would be nearly perfect conditions. This is where sprinkers are so important. A sprinkler should activate in the first couple of minutes and even if it doesnt put the fire completly out, it will slow the fire and give the occupants a lot more time to escape. 10 minutes is too late...watch the video..its very clear and real to life about the time frame.

http://www.homefiresprinkler.org/FS/FSTimelineUS.html


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## bchplumbing (Oct 24, 2009)

*ceiling heads...*



hepco said:


> Congrats Curtis,
> 
> I actually got mine back in August. The response I get is very disturbing though. It cost too much or why would you want pipe in your ceiling or someone will hit a sprinkler, break it and flood your house. Im building now and Im going to install a system in my house. It will be my first - just waiting for the system to be designed. I believe it is the Home Builders Association that is putting up a big fight against it.How are people responding to sprinklers in your area.
> 
> On a more serious note, I am a volunteer fireman and this year alone we have had two fatalities in two separate incedents in house fires. I look at both situations and think both would have survived posibly with no injuries if the houses had sprinkers


Use side wall heads instead. 
Congrats Curtis, now you have an edge!


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## sprinklertech (Oct 24, 2010)

hepco said:


> Congrats Curtis,
> 
> I actually got mine back in August. The response I get is very disturbing though. It cost too much or why would you want pipe in your ceiling or someone will hit a sprinkler, break it and flood your house. Im building now and Im going to install a system in my house. It will be my first - just waiting for the system to be designed. I believe it is the Home Builders Association that is putting up a big fight against it.How are people responding to sprinklers in your area.
> 
> On a more serious note, I am a volunteer fireman and this year alone we have had two fatalities in two separate incedents in house fires. I look at both situations and think both would have survived posibly with no injuries if the houses had sprinkers


When home building comes back which it will.

The Home Builders Association is the one putting up the fight and putting out tons of erroneous information about cost and failures.

I've covered costs before and we're looking at a couple thousand per home at most with people spending more on carpets.

Nearly every motel with interior hallways have sprinklers and I have yet to hear of one "just going off". The last one I heard about is two drunk girls who held a cigarette lighter under one to see if it worked. It did, they were arrested and now get to pay tens of thousands in water damages. Well, duh?

These things do not "just go off" the liability to manufacturers would be to great. There is always a reason.

But where we will see failures is improper installations caused by freezing pipes in cold weather climates. Biggest boogaboo would be installing pipes in an attic thinking covering them with insulation will somehow keep them warm and toasty. It won't and you try this in Minnesota you'd be an idiot. As another poster said always keep pipes and heads in the heated shell space which for a two story might mean normal pendent sprinklers in the basement and first floor while using sidewall sprinklers (keeping pipe in the walls below the ceiling where they are kept heated) on the upper top floor. This will be more expensive, it will require more heads, more labor and more pipe but this way it will not freeze. Cost for the upper floor might increase from $600 to $1,200 if you want an idea.

Installing pipe in the walls completely reduces the chances it would be damaged by someone walking on it. If I were doing it I would insist sprinklers never be installed in the attic even in warm climates.

How you do this is run all your pipe in the joist space on the first floor then running a riser to the head on the second floor then back down again.

Something like this










Kind of a crappy drawing but it gives an idea how to avoid dead ends.

We used to do hotels up north with CPVC using this method and it didn't take long once you have a "system" in play. We would easily rough in the equivalent of a house (four units first floor with four on second for a total of 16 sprinklers) in a single day. 

Oh, do never run pipe in an outside wall either. Most of you are plumbers and would you run a waterline in an attic or outside wall? I didn't think so.


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## Wafflefryer (Nov 4, 2010)

*What?*



sprinklertech said:


> Biggest boogaboo would be installing pipes in an attic thinking covering them with insulation will somehow keep them warm and toasty. It won't and you try this in Minnesota you'd be an idiot.


 
Oh it will. I would do it in a heatrtbeat. There is enough empirical data out there regarding attic installations to suggest differently.

I've witnessed installations (a Minnesota installation in particular) where the system was filled with water and the building has been left unoccupied for 2 winters. The temperature inside the dwelling is maintained at 50°F and so far there have been no freeze-ups. 

All the installing contractor really has to verify is that there is enough insulation above the pipe. If the regional R Value requirement is R30 above a sheetrock lid, make sure when pipe is installed that the regional R value requirement is on top of the pipe instead of just the lid. This normally means adding an extra 4" of insulation on the pipe.

The end result is a less expensive sprinkler system (even with the added cost of insulation) and a better looking system (no ugly sidewall heads to look at).


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## Paddy (Sep 2, 2011)

hepco said:


> Congrats Curtis, Im building now and Im going to install a system in my house. It will be my first - just waiting for the system to be designed.


I hope that you are doing a combined system, one that gives you the most hydraulically efficient plumbing system as well as the sprinklers. FPE's (Fire Protection Engineer's) are accustomed to designing sprinkler systems, and plumbing is a second thought. That makes both systems more expensive. Gridded plumbing layouts, (called Networks in the sprinkler standards), provides balanced systems that eliminate pressure/temp fluctuations 


> On a more serious note, I am a volunteer fireman and this year alone we have had two fatalities in two separate incedents in house fires. I look at both situations and think both would have survived posibly with no injuries if the houses had sprinkers


First off, thank you for becoming a volunteer firefighter. I know how many hours of training you went through to qualify, and I sure hope that your neighbors appreciate your commitment to their life safety.

The history of residential sprinklers backs up your conclusions about the two fire incidents in your community. When fires occur in homes protected with fire sprinklers, over 98 percent of occupants survive. Compare that to homes equipped with smoke alarms only, where only 50 percent survive.

Paddy


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