# Plumbing books



## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Recently I came across a volume of plumbing books

PHCC plumbing 101, 201, 301 & 401. Apparently they are the books used for the journeyman course that the PHCC uses to certify someone through their school. 

I am a young licensed plumber with my own small business, but being a professional who learned his trade on the job, im always curious to learn things that I may not know or have been misinformed about - my last post about backflow preventers have especially made me see howmuch there still is to learn, even if it's not my niche. 

I was wanting to purchase these books to read for myself, but dont want to spend the $80 per book that they cost. Does anyone already have these books already that they would want to sell?


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

You didn't go through a apprentice school will working?


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Not in California. You don't need to. 6 years under a plumbing company that plumbed custom homes, remodels and residential service calls- as an apprentice working my way up till i was one of the lead plumbers running other guys. Then I got an opportunity to be the referring company taking emergency calls for a restoration company as my own business and took it. 

I'm very good at my job, but it's in my nature to want to learn more and why things are, or what there may be that I didnt learn. I'm always curious as to why codes are put in place, not just what codes Affect me. It's when you learn why codes or rules are put in place that you can know how to safely and properly modify them if you need to. 

I saw the books and thought they would be a good read


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

I think there are better books available but that is just my opinion. 

I went through a PHCC apprenticeship and their books sucked. 

Should have taught from code book starting day one. 


Since you don't go through school, how do you know your work is code? Rely on inspectors? No offense intended.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

No offense taken brotha, I know it's code from reading the code book where necessary, my boss telling me what code was, and having to deal with inspectors telling me what was and wasn't. 

Thanks for the info, glad I didnt waste my money if the books were lame. Do you know of any other nooks that you liked? 
I was thinking of doing a continuing Ed course but believe or not since they aren't required in Cali there not especially easy to find


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Indie said:


> Since you don't go through school, how do you know your work is code? Rely on inspectors? No offense intended.


Dude its California.... 

Not exactly the best licensing and consumer protection system in the country...
But it is what it is....

Hopefully other parts of the country resist being Californicated....:whistling2:


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Redwood - back off bro, I challenge you to a plumb off! 

Haha ok ok I realize that most other states are way more hardcore in there plumbing requirements but, at least I'm demanding more of myself, regardless of what's required in my state. - yes Cali is loose on laws with plumbers ( and as a legit licensed insured plumber, I have to compete with those guys who do just the minimum, and have no pride in workmanship) but my old boss was a very intelligent man who loved the trade, and taught me well. With that said, there may be things he never knew that theres always something new to learn, so at least give me that

I do agree that my state should update it's requirements, I hate seeing guys not knowing what theyre doing, making things worse......but then again it's those guys that are the reason I stand out from my competitors and have a business at all!


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

voltatab said:


> Redwood - back off bro, I challenge you to a plumb off!


:laughing::laughing::laughing:

Yea... The last thing I'm doing here is getting down on any California Plumbers...

The system you guys have to experience of there really stinks. 
I think it really cheapens the trade and quality suffers.IMHO

The major things I see that are bad are:

GC's with virtually no plumbing knowledge or, skills can plumb.
The lack of formal training and apprenticeship.
The licensed plumbing contractor with employees working under him.
Lax enforcement of the laws which is a problem in many places.

Those things are a problem in many places, those factors can drive down the prices we can charge customers, and drive down the wages of the plumbers.

The lax laws regarding training, licensing, who is allowed to plumb, along with the lack of enforcement on illegal operators, only serve to drive down the value of your product in your customers eyes.

The 161 illegal contractors rounded up in a "Statewide Sting Operation" on unlicensed contractors on March 25, 2010 is a drop in the bucket in a state with a population of 36,961,664 (Jul 2009 Source: U.S. Census Bureau) The state owes you and the consumers more than that... The sting was designed for "The News" not to accomplish anything. :whistling2:

There is no reason why we should not have a requirement for formal education and and apprenticeship while holding an apprentice card before being able to sit for the journeyman license exam.

Once you hold the journeyman card there should be a requirement for continuing education, and a requirement for additional formal education and a certain amount of time in the trade before being allowed to sit for the masters exam and be able to run a business.

Enforcement should be relentless to the point where if you plumb for hire without a license you stand a better than even odds of doing jail time.

Of course since this is the land of the free homeowner should be allowed to screw up their own homes...:laughing:
But the work they do should be strictly enforced, with permits required the same as those for us and inspections.
Once they go to sell the house, the home inspector should be required to be good enough to catch the messed up minor plumbing jobs, and generate a list of repairs to be made by a licensed plumber....
That would then make the homeowner pay to have the good plumbing they could have enjoyed the whole time they were living there instead of buying it for someone else...

This would drive up the value of our work in the customers eyes, allowing us to command higher prices, and higher wages for our work.

Ahhh, to only turn back the hands of time and unscrew all the screwups our elected officials have made...


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Everybody knows the licensing laws are pretty loose here in California but we are held to the UPC so regardless of your qualifications, you have to meet those standards. Sadly, there are tons of plumbers (service mostly) that have no clue when it comes to code requirements because you can be hired on with no experience and work for a company for 20 years without any testing, schooling or accountability other than to your boss.

I'm all for any books you can get your hands on if you haven't been to a legit trade school (I've never been to one). It really comes down to your personal work and education ethic here in California. 










Paul


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

If you want a good explanation of the code get the commentary...

It explains a lot of the legalize of the code book


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## Nikolai (Dec 17, 2009)

You don't have to attend a school in Alaska either, the apprenticeship is 8,000 hrs of OTJ training and book work. We use the UPC and I continuously read through the code book and illustrated training manual to stay on top of code. Like the OP, I read as much as I can to better myself and I'd also be interested in purchasing some really informative plumbing books. We have a lot of lazy, uneducated plumbers up here and I'm striving to be the best.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Redwood- so true, considering the money probs out state has, it would just mean more jobs/money to generate. 


Plum nutz
What do you mean commentary? I can purchase a code book with commentary? Sweeeeeet!


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Nikolai said:


> You don't have to attend a school in Alaska either, the apprenticeship is 8,000 hrs of OTJ training and book work.


Still much better than California...
There all you have to do is get hired by a licensed plumbing contractor and go to work...


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Redwood said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> Yea... The last thing I'm doing here is getting down on any California Plumbers...
> 
> ...


I agree, guarantee people get sick over there.
I wasn't even aware it was so lax over there, how long has it been like that?
I can't believe those cites don't have real plumbers... They will change when there is an outbreak.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Nikolai said:


> You don't have to attend a school in Alaska either, the apprenticeship is 8,000 hrs of OTJ training and book work. We use the UPC and I continuously read through the code book and illustrated training manual to stay on top of code. Like the OP, I read as much as I can to better myself and I'd also be interested in purchasing some really informative plumbing books. We have a lot of lazy, uneducated plumbers up here and I'm striving to be the best.


Alaska doesn't have the population California has.... So it's not really a good comparison.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Dude its California....
> 
> Not exactly the best licensing and consumer protection system in the country...
> But it is what it is....
> ...


Not true, California requires proof of 4-years (8,000 hours) working as a Journeyman. You have to submit proof from a Union, a Trade School or pay stubs. I know a guy who took and past his test but he was turned down after the fact on his experience. He had worked for his dad for 10-years with 6-years in his own truck. 

The problem was part of that time his dad was paying him cash so he had no proof for that time period. He ended up getting a job as a plumber for the City which will probably pay better in the long run anyways.

Mark


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> Not true, California requires proof of 4-years (8,000 hours) *working as a Journeyman*. You have to submit proof from a Union, a Trade School or pay stubs.


Right! So I can come in from working as a used car salesman....

Get a Job working for Motor Scooters.....

Go to their one day a week "Plumbing Technician School" and work with another guy for 6 weeks of training and then I'm good to go.... :whistling2:

Drive around in a Motor Scooter Van for 4 years on my own figuring out how to plumb on my own at the customers expense and risk...

I didn't realize that California had a "Journeyman." Are you sure it just isn't employee? I'm pretty sure the above Motor Scooter experience will fulfill the requirements... :laughing:

Then comes the big day...

4 years and 8,000 hours later I'm ready to be a licensed plumbing contractor in California.... :whistling2:


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Right! So I can come in from working as a used car salesman....
> 
> Get a Job working for Motor Scooters.....
> 
> ...


The short answer is no you would not be qualified.


What is an apprenticeable occupation?
An "Apprenticeable Occupation" is one that requires independent judgment and the application of manual, mechanical, technical, or professional skills and is best learned through an organized system of on-the-job training together with related and supplemental instruction. For additional information on apprentice skills and programs visit the Department of Industrial Relations.

What is a journeyman?
A journeyman is a person who has completed an apprenticeship program or is an experienced worker, not a trainee, and is fully qualified and able to perform a specific trade without supervision. But, that person does not have a license and is not able to contract for jobs that value more than $500 in labor and materials.

How many years are required in Connecticut as an Apprentice and then a Journeyman to become a Master/Contractor?

Mark


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Never mind I found it:

(a) Unlimited plumbing-piping contractor's license (P-1). 
The holder of this license may do all plumbing and piping work as defined in section 20-330 of 
the Connecticut General Statutes. The requirements to qualify for this license examination shall 
be two (2) years as an unlimited licensed journeyperson or equivalent experience and training. 

(b) Unlimited plumbing-piping journeyperson's license (P-2). The holder of this license may do 
all plumbing and piping work as so defined and only while in the employ of a contractor licensed 
for such work. The requirements to qualify for this license examination shall be the completion 
of a registered apprenticeship program or equivalent experience and training. 

Mark


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> The short answer is no you would not be qualified.
> 
> 
> What is an apprenticeable occupation?
> ...


Okay...

At what point does this Motor Scooter "Plumbing Technician/Employee" become an "experienced worker, not a trainee, and is fully qualified and able to perform a specific trade without supervision" In the eyes of California? Or, is it the employer?

Or, is it only possible to get through the union?

Seems to be a lot of non union guys running businesses, I'm just wondering what the straight scoop is....


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

It may be different in larger cities but around here it is a joke. The way it's worded is open to interpretation as it says you have to have 4 years experience "working at the journeyman level". To me that means what Mark said but to a lot of guys it means what Redwood said. I didn't even think about taking my test after I'd been plumbing for 4 years. For a lot of guys around here "been plumbing" means "been a plumber". In my book they are far from the same thing. I waited until I'd been plumbing for 12 years before testing and it scares me to think there are guys that I know where hired 4 years ago with NO EXPERIENCE at all that are licensed now. Hell, when they were hired they didn't even know how to hold a pair of channel locks or read a tape measure, now they are "plumbers". It's a messed up system for sure but I can only be responsible for myself and my knowledge. 






Paul


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

There was a time when proving experience was easy and all you needed was a letter. Those days are gone and now they are verifying experience. I work with a guy who was a licensed plumbing contractor on the east coast and they rejected his California application for not having enough experience. He petitioned and was finally approved to take his test but it was not a slam dunk.

Mark


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Okay...
> 
> At what point does this Motor Scooter "Plumbing Technician/Employee" become an "experienced worker, not a trainee, and is fully qualified and able to perform a specific trade without supervision" In the eyes of California? Or, is it the employer?
> 
> ...


*I trained for 3 months *and was then given a truck and told to go do the jobs assigned. Does that make me a journeyman?
Most trades require one to five years of apprentice time in order to fully understand the complexity of the work along with codes, standards, business management, and troubleshooting. Just because an employer is sending you out on basic jobs, it does not qualify you as a journeyman.

The apprentice time is valuable learning time that can not be skipped. Writing an invoice and collecting for services is not the same as processing the invoice, depositing the money, balancing books monthly, paying expenditures, processing payroll, and providing the government with all applicable paperwork.

*I built the house I live in* and remodeled a rental. Does this qualify me to be a journeyman as it took 4 years to complete both projects? I also hired all the subcontractors with no problem.
Owner/builder qualifications are difficult to assess. The CSLB may consider the work if there is verifiable evidence that it was completed to code. Also in consideration is how long it would have taken a licensed contractor to complete the same project. A new home and remodel could take less than a year to complete. As such only one year's experience would be credited. However, you still needed to complete 2-4 years of apprentice training prior to your owner/builder experience.

Learning along the way and being sure that it is done right does not automatically qualify for journeyman accreditation. Hiring subcontractors to complete the work on the house does not qualify you to be a journeyman. Experience must be hands-on in the trade.

*Can I substitute any education*, technical training, or apprenticeship training for the required journeyman experience?
You may receive credit for your technical training, apprenticeship training, or education in place of a portion of the required four years of practical experience. At least one year must be practical experience. You must provide written documentation of any training or education claimed in place of experience. Acceptable documentation includes copies of apprenticeship certificates and college transcripts.

For more information, check out the Applicant section of this Web site.

*I worked for myself since I was 16 years old*. I am now 21. Does that qualify for four years of journeyman experience?
Provided you submit verifiable evidence that you worked full-time for the last four years, you may qualify, depending on the trade. Verifiable evidence includes, but is not limited to invoices, income tax reports, 1099s, and copies of contracts. If you were paid in cash and kept no records and filed no taxes, it will be difficult for you to prove you actually did any work.

An important aspect of being a journeyman ready to be a contractor is knowing how a business is run and demonstrating that knowledge whether you are licensed or not. Depending on the trade, you also need to prove 1-4 years of apprentice experience in addition to the four years of journeyman time.

*I have been a property manager for four years* at an apartment complex. Does this experience count as journeyman?
This could be very difficult to prove as verifiable experience because you do not complete any one trade on a regular basis for four years. If you wanted to apply for a C36 Plumbing license you would need to show that you performed plumbing every day for four full years for approximately eight hours per day.

*Note:* A plumbing apprenticeship is normally five years. Plus another four years of journeyman time in order to apply. Most apartment complexes have a variety of trades that need attention but rarely the same trade day after day. To qualify for a B license you would have to prove that you actually built or rebuilt apartments on a daily basis not just repaired siding or drywall on occasion.


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

voltatab said:


> Plum nutz
> What do you mean commentary? I can purchase a code book with commentary? Sweeeeeet!


The IPC commentary can be bought at iccsafe.org


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Thanks buddy, I thought my original question was lost for sure!


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

voltatab said:


> What do you mean commentary? I can purchase a code book with commentary? Sweeeeeet!


I still have my first commentary from when I was studying for my Contractor's exam. 1990 BOCA.

The IPC commentaries are very good as well. Basically they provide practical application of the legalese of the code. The illustrations are very helpful too. The commentary is also developed by the same code coucil so it is consistent with the actual code.


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

Redwood said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> Yea... The last thing I'm doing here is getting down on any California Plumbers...
> 
> ...


Actually our license law states they can't do any trade beside framing unless two trades are involved. So the can do bath remodels but by law the shouldn't be able to do stand alone plumbing work.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

tungsten plumb said:


> Actually our license law states they can't do any trade beside framing unless two trades are involved. So the can do bath remodels but by law the shouldn't be able to do stand alone plumbing work.


Right! So on a kitchen or, bath remodeling job you just might have a GC "Plumber" :blink:


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Right! So on a kitchen or, bath remodeling job you just might have a GC "Plumber" :blink:


Most of the time yeah :laughing:


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## breid1903 (Feb 8, 2009)

in indiana at least where i live we have gc that do the electrical, plumbing and hvac. if the customer doesn't demand that i be there, the gc will just do it. i get the call when what the gc does, dosen't. like the time the amish wired the house. yes the amish. or when the gc yanks all the devices out of the boxes, didn't tag anything. oh yea there were 4 3way switches in there and he had no idea where or what. or the time the same gc cut all the register holes in the floor on an ac job. nobody went into the basement to find the gal water lines that were in the way. suppose he came in under on that bid? etc. breid....................:rockon:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

NYC Plumber said:


> I agree, guarantee people get sick over there.
> I wasn't even aware it was so lax over there, how long has it been like that?
> I can't believe those cites don't have real plumbers... They will change when there is an outbreak.


 



That's funny, I'm laughing my rear off. I might use that as a signature line if I new how to do it...:laughing:


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> That's funny, I'm laughing my rear off. I might use that as a signature line if I new how to do it...:laughing:


 
highlight the words you want to use by left clicking and holding it down and drag the mouse. then right click, then left click copy. go to your user cp (control panel) find the setting for setting your signature. once you find it right click in the box left click paste and click save changes


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