# Employees - This thread is for you!



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

> This is a bit off topic, but the thread drifted in this direction regarding employees.
> 
> I'm posting here and creating a new topic to further the discussion since 'employees' most likely are not reading this thread.


Personally, I find it appalling that business owners are publicly announcing that employees are basically not worth having. You do realize you are insulting every self-respecting plumber who gets up everyday and does an excellent job for his employer? Or did that not occur to you?

We have had employees that have not met our expectations and were terminated; however, the majority were fine men and fine plumbers.

Could it be that your hiring decisions were bad decisions? What happened to taking responsibility? I realize in some markets finding good help may be very difficult, but I don't believe for a moment that it is impossible. If you have/had a bad employee, you were responsible.

There are 2,282 members on PZ. I'd like to hear from employees who are proud of their performance and are happy to be working for their respective companies.

My question to employees - "What does your employer do to keep you loyal and hardworking?"


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

_(crickets..........chirping)_






Keep in mind these valuable facts:


Us plumbers were all employees at one time, we know what went on, the time theft, the material theft, the slag time, the "find opportunity" time when you don't feel you're treated fairly, and a whole freaking host of other situations from getting injured and playing it out on a free ride or just taking advantage of the system.


The system we all know it to be as the workplace.


Granted, there might be some good employees out there, but there's an overwhelming amount of bad experiences that are the first to come to mind in situations where they should be praised. 

Employees make a business operate, but they cost you as well. Humans are not the most efficient either. 

I would praise a good employee like I would a good wife...someone who went the distance and showed respect...over a long period of years. Then I'd say it's a well deserved recognition.

I haven't seen a shop that didn't have leaks in the employee equation...ever.


There's the brownnoser
There's the know it all
There's the family man who can do no wrong
There's the religious freak
There's the party animal
There's the "always broke" 
There's the "got woman problems"
Theres the "works great but has a drug problem" guy who shows up half the time but works his arse off when he's there
There's the "going to be there even when the doors close and the owners die, going to have to get police assistance to peel him off the walls" employee
There's the guy with a sinister plan to get as many side jobs he possibly can with your material, and make it look like someone else did it :laughing:

There's the guy who is asking for a raise as soon as he learns something
There's the guy always threatening to quit if he doesn't get his way
There's the guy who always thinks his personal life is more important than his work life
There's the guy who says he knows what he says and has no idea what he really knows
There's the guy who is always asking for money advances
There's the guy who is always drinking around work, might as well let him drink on the job to be consistent
There's the guy who doesn't get along with others - shrimp boy
There's the guy who works the shop that works harder than the highest paid man, but gets **** on because he doesn't have a license
There's the guy who always has mistakes in the field but he's a super nice guy and you don't want to fire him because of the moral ground of helping the stupid
There's the "chronically smelly dude" that you know he took a bath but you forgot to tell him to wash his clothes
There's the "Only type of worker he is...is one in the ditch and not conversating with the customer" 
There's the "OMG WTF DID YOU DO THAT FOR?!??!" employee that makes you wonder if your company will be shut down in the next 6-9 months


And finally?


There's the employee that you're stuck with, knows the legalities of your business better than you do and you know that it's one fake injury, one attitude that forces the hand to lay them off, or fire...and then the unemployment compensation begins. But could that be a worker's comp claim, no? How about finding out later that your rates jumped sky high because the fellow is claiming emotional distress and can't be a plumber anymore.

Or you just keep looking the other way while that boiling point keeps building and you can't seem to put a finger on it on what to do in your best interest.



Now, 

Did I make all this up...or have I lived the life inside a few plumbing companies knowing how the ball is rolled. 

I think I have. 


DUNBAR "speaking to those who know" PLUMBING


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

What you have described is the human condition. No one is the 'perfect' employee and everyone has flaws/limitations. As an employer, it's your job to manage these 'imperfect' people.

There are times when as an owner I do everything right, production and accomplishments skyrocket.

Then there are those days when I would fire me. Four days of rain, colder weather, lack of sleep, and I am not at peak performance.

As a package, I earn my keep all things considered!

You have been an employee before, so answer my question

What could a company do to keep you loyal and hardworking?

Off topic - Wives, just like employees need consistent praise, motivation, and cheerleading! If you ignore this fact, you won't have their loyalty for very long.


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## user2091 (Sep 27, 2009)

I think you both make great points.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> What could a company do to keep you loyal and hardworking?


Evidently there is nothing a company could do, or I would not be self-employed. That's just the way some people are wired. When I was an employee I never received less than an exceeds expectation evaluation. And I never expected anything other than my paycheck on friday. Anything else was just a bonus.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Every single one of the 13 plumbers we have working are the cream of the crop, most professional, trustworthy motivated men that money can buy :thumbsup:


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

It is hard to find a really good plumbing employee. Most of the best ones seem to go out on their own. (like myself!:whistling2: :laughing: )

BUT, there are really good plumbers who just want good pay but not the headaches of running a business. That is the only type I would hire, the cream of the crop. I pay top dollar, if a guy is worth it, he's worth it.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

I hate my employees. I wish they knew what a Mo Fo it is to run a company and answer the phone all damn day long while trying to work calls at the same time, and fax things, and email things, and pay for things, and your calling me because your aggrevated with a job that your doing?????????????????????????? Really????????????????????


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Every single one of the 13 plumbers we have working are the cream of the crop, most professional, trustworthy motivated men that money can buy :thumbsup:


 

I swear, this has got to be the first positive statement I've ever seen NHMaster3015 print. :thumbsup:


Was you getting paid...or did they have ball bats waiting for you in the parking lot.


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## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Every single one of the 13 plumbers we have working are the cream of the crop, most professional, trustworthy motivated men that money can buy :thumbsup:


 
_BROWN NOSE, BROWN NOSE!!!!!!!!:laughing::laughing:_


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

para1 said:


> _BROWN NOSE, BROWN NOSE!!!!!!!!:laughing::laughing:_


Some must be PZ members..:whistling2:


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

I always tried to treat my employees with respect because I felt it would only take a couple of bad jobs to make me an employee. 

Mark


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> I always tried to treat my employees with respect because I felt it would only take a couple of bad jobs to make me an employee.
> 
> Mark


 I always respect coworkers because i don't want some guy to crack me over the head with a hammer after I f'd with him too much and he snaps.


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## grandpa (Jul 13, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Personally, I find it appalling that business owners are publicly announcing that employees are basically not worth having. "


 
Maybe I missed something. I have not personally seen business owners 
"dissing" employees. It certainly would be an illadvised thing for a business owner. If there is dirty laundry which needs to be aired out, do that IN HOUSE. Share your dirty laundry with customers and they will find a new laundromat!


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

As an employee, I would like to get paid more than I could get in a lot of the factory jobs around here, not the lowest amount that an owner can get away with. I get just a little pissed when I hear that I could get paid better working a machine. I recognize that the owner carries the greater responsibilty, but a little respect would be nice. I know that there are a bunch of worthless losers out there. I am not one. I come to work everyday, I work over if needed. I don't call in sick. I rarely leave earlier. I take most work orders without complaint. This I'm sure is considered brown nosing. Although, I may not be the greatest plumber in the world I believe that I do a good job and make the company a reasonable sum of money.
Why does it seem that most owners try to gamble on giving just enough compensation to keep an employee? Also, why is it that most employers want to ***** about the guys that are making them money?

I could go on for awhile, but I'll just wait for the blowback.:yes:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Indiana Plumber said:


> As an employee, I would like to get paid more than I could get in a lot of the factory jobs around here, not the lowest amount that an owner can get away with. I get just a little pissed when I hear that I could get paid better working a machine. I recognize that the owner carries the greater responsibilty, but a little respect would be nice. I know that there are a bunch of worthless losers out there. I am not one. I come to work everyday, I work over if needed. I don't call in sick. I rarely leave earlier. I take most work orders without complaint. This I'm sure is considered brown nosing. Although, I may not be the greatest plumber in the world I believe that I do a good job and make the company a reasonable sum of money.
> Why does it seem that most owners try to gamble on giving just enough compensation to keep an employee? Also, why is it that most employers want to ***** about the guys that are making them money?
> 
> I could go on for awhile, but I'll just wait for the blowback.:yes:


 Want to move south?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Indiana Plumber said:


> Why does it seem that most owners try to gamble on giving just enough compensation to keep an employee? Also, why is it that most employers want to ***** about the guys that are making them money.:yes:


I have always done the opposite. I pay more than they can make anywhere around and treat them better than I have ever been treated. They talk about how they have found a home, then they self destruct.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

I have been both an employee and an employer, and union for both, and I spent a long time as an employee with the power to hire and fire other employees, I had no control over pay rates being union, but I could always tell when someone was working for a living and when they were collecting a paycheck. I never asked anything out of my crews than an honest days work, when I was running high rise work I knew how long it should take to get a floor done, by crew, because I did it myself, if they could get close to my time I considered it good. Those that could not get things done got sent back to the hall, and I made it a point to tell the BA that I would make it known that this man should not be hired.

When I started my business I hired two journeymen I had working for me for years, and two apprentices that worked for me from day one as apprentices and knew how I wanted things done, and they did me proud by finishing two large projects under budget, it was not their fault I went under.

I like being an employee instead, let someone else deal with the finances.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

KTS, did you start your business as a union shop? 


I understand the reasons why you said it didn't work out, but I would assume that there were significant costs in being a union plumbing company.


The reason I ask is because I've seen countless smaller shops go under in my area in recent years because of the costs, and the diminishing values of the perks that the union offers to its employees.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> KTS, did you start your business as a union shop?
> 
> 
> I understand the reasons why you said it didn't work out, but I would assume that there were significant costs in being a union plumbing company.
> ...


Yes I did, the only way I was going to get the jobs was to be union, I knew that going in, the costs would have been fine had the payments arrived in thirty instead of 45 to 90 days. IlPlumber knows far more about financing work than I ever will, because I will never do it again.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I would assume that there were significant costs in being a union plumbing company.


 
Not really. Scale is higher in some instances. But that is a wash on prevailing wage jobs. 

I do pay a couple hundred bucks per year in dues. I don't take their retirement or insurance. I do pay $46.00 per week into the training fund.

When work is slow, my employee salary other than myself is 0.0

When work is good, I have virtually unlimited man-power.

When work is really slow, the union guys will work for 70% scale just to get work. On non-prevailing wage jobs of course.

As far as financing, I save a considerable amount of money to carry me between draws. If the money isn't there, I have a large line of credit to float on. I started getting work again in May. I just now am back at zero for the year with money coming in. Not a kick ass year, just a good year. 

Enough rambling....


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

It must be different from state to state because I actually worked at one of the companies that went union, then struggled to stay afloat. The service division kept the lights on but new construction is where the equation was. 

It seemed that bidding as a union contractor put them in such a peril as it was plain and simple; Favoritism, not enough "big" jobs and too many trying to bid the same jobs.

What would happen is either the same guy would keep getting the jobs either by inside information or some other way. ??? 

Well, when everything slows down, this forces the competition to react. Having a large cash flow/line of credit wasn't the problem with the company I worked for...it was the series of blows (not getting good paying work) that kept happening over and over. The estimators were top notch...it was just too many guys out there, two/three/five man companies that were all bidding these jobs and cutting everyones throats.

That has all changed now as 100's sit on the bench, even "good" workers that have fallen into the cracks of a bad economy.

These small companies have folded, disappeared and what's left are the bigger union outfits that have toughed it out. Of course; there's a few small shops still hanging on...but if the economy turns down even more? The writing is on the wall. 

I've been told the bennies have considerably been diminished since I was there in 98'. What once was good health insurance is now bare minimum. Dental/Vision you have to buy in. 

You "have" to pay into subpay, you also pay national union dues aside from local. These big companies being awarded these contracts are working for less, the industry is demanding it. Everyone got a haircut. 

With so many companies working on such elevated income earning levels just 18 months ago, and to now be working on nearly razor thin margins now...that's got to be a struggle into itself.

Every company in my area, union and non-union has shedded more than just employees and equipment. It's all about survival mode with debts still growing, even though there is work at this point. 

I've managed quite well this year considering, but nothing like how it used to be. Barnett's finally changed my rep because I'm a dead account in florida.

I loved buying in bulk but I just day buy like I've done for the past 14 months. Of course I've got other feathers in my cap causing this with my other businesses...but the employees at the supply houses keep telling me that I'm extremely lucky to be working, daily.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

OFF TOPIC:furious:

Start a Union thread if you wish.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> I hate my employees. I wish they knew what a Mo Fo it is to run a company and answer the phone all damn day long while trying to work calls at the same time, and fax things, and email things, and pay for things, and your calling me because your aggrevated with a job that your doing?????????????????????????? Really????????????????????


 Groing pains is all. Watch out when it purrs like a kitten, the sec can handle the calls, and you get to leave whenever you want and plan vacations. Its a false sense of prosperity.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I always wanted appreciation as an employee. Probably because I was a bit insecure. When I got to Florida and got my license I could see my boss was not a better plumber, businessman, or person..and he didnt like the fact I was printing my business cards.( small town). I treated my other employees( other than my 2 sons) well, paid well, carried them in slow times, and waited far too long to lay them off. Now I get phone calls of how wonderful the boys are or occaisionally, I just called to tell you "because I care" what your son said.......


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*that pretty much says it all*



ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> I hate my employees. I wish they knew what a Mo Fo it is to run a company and answer the phone all damn day long while trying to work calls at the same time, and fax things, and email things, and pay for things, and your calling me because your aggrevated with a job that your doing?????????????????????????? Really????????????????????


I have felt that way before...

that is why we got rid of everyone.....


if it dont kill you , it only makes you stronger:thumbup:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Sure don't look like an employee thread to me...:whistling2:

I'm an employee and I show bad bosses why tool boxes have handles...:laughing:

It keeps them on their toes and thats a good thing!


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Its hard to have an employee thread that wasn't started directly by an employee. I shouldn't have posted either...:blink:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Actually the best day of my life was meeting a former boss at the supply house and listening to him moan about all the losers he had working for him now and how I should come back...:whistling2:

I told him he couldn't afford me...:laughing:

He insisted he could and it was different...

I told him I'd come by and see him sometime...
We'd do lunch...

I just haven't been that hungry... :laughing:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Staying on topic has to be stipulated clearly in the contract.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Just dealt with that one.



DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> _(crickets..........chirping)_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

service guy said:


> Its hard to have an employee thread that wasn't started directly by an employee. I shouldn't have posted either...:blink:


Most all of us here were an employee at one time or another. I was interested in finding out what a company can do to attract and keep good employees. 

There are a lot of bad ones and if you can side step them, your business will run more smoothly, be more profitable, and be a place where employees & employers enjoy spending time.

My off topic was related to the in/outs of unions.


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## Regulator (Aug 20, 2009)

Just a thought, but employers may wish to avoid those practices diplayed on the first post under "Day Laborers". :jester:


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> My question to employees - "What does your employer do to keep you loyal and hardworking?"


most of my workforce is under 21 with no real skills to speak of. most are at apprentice level at best. the thing they complain about the most isn't pay(they make about 1k a month), but job satisfaction and self graditude. they thought their job was mindless and unimportant, anyone could do it. i showed them some posts of nhmaster's and started to take before and after pic of their work. soon they realized what they did was important and they saw everyday what they worked on. they also started friendly competitions on who the best plumber is that speeded production.

i also set the standard regarding workmanship and always made them meet them. i try to talk to everyone with respect and this actually goes a long way. many have told me this. i try to be fair and help those that want help, no matter how bad his skills are. those that can't get with the program.....let's just say the streets around base are getting cleaner all the time.


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## bartnc37 (Feb 24, 2009)

As employee #2 of a two man operation, meaning myself in the field, the boss in the office, out bidding etc. I'd be happy with an acknowledgement that i am in fact making him some money. I think its pretty obvious i am since he does zero fieldwork yet his business has managed to stay well above water these last few years. Before the ranting about overhead, insurance, etc begins please keep in mind i am not complaining about the arrangement or how he runs his business. Just the simple act of not being treated as another expense like the fuel bill would be nice. Also a little communication as to what you want done and timeframe would be great, i can't read minds and if i could i sure as heck wouldn't be crawling around in S**t all day( Who am i kidding i still would be, l love the poo)


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

What motivated me as an employee were the following:

1. Sincere compliments and encouragement.
2. Respect for me as a person and my abilities.
3. I wanted to take on additional responsibility and was always encouraged to do so. Also, pushing me to live up to my potential.
4. Being slightly over-compensated! :yes: (I even had a clothing allowance! Hello Nordstroms.) 

For over ten years I worked for one of the smartest business men I had ever met and I have yet to meet anyone who comes close to his ability to manage people and make money. 

At some point, maybe I will start a thread and share what I learned from this truly GREAT man.

He eventually retired or I would still be working for him. I had it sooo good.


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