# Pinhole question



## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I did an addition 18 yrs ago , soft copper in the ground with a circulation loop and above ground the common wall for the w/m and w/h was copper, and started pinholing in that wall only. Starting 8 yrs ago I have been taking out copper and putting in cpvc and pex. Today was the last of the copper.
Commercial 100 gal electric heater
3 speed grunfos circ. pump
Well water softened

My hope is that the underground is not going because the place is posh and marble floors expensive everything...
If the worst is happening near the water heater and pump are there any conclusions I can make?


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Was Type M copper used above ground? Well water around here eats copper up. The Ph of the water determines the live of the pipe. The underground pipe will fail. The question is "how much life do the pipes have left".


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Is it possible that the re-circ pump is oversized? Without knowing distances, sizing the pump can be crucial. My humble opinion


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## express (Nov 22, 2008)

I agree with greenplum around here people on wells have the same problem with the Ph of the water. too much acid, what is it doing to their body's.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I would worry more about copper poisioning before I worried about low ph water consumption.

To the OP: Aren't you glad you used copper? Better put more copper in, you wouldn't want to use that evil plastic pipe. You know it's all crap right? :laughing:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

1. Lol on glad I used copper
2. I turned the pump to slowest setting
3. I probably used some M in places

The only place that shows up (sofar) is in that wall near the heater and pump the lavs and other tub etc have not leaked yet.
If I get a pic of the inside of the latest"fitting"--not M- would that tell enough...it has green dots all over the inside..


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

You can send a piece of the copper to the Copper Development Association and they will do an analysis for you.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Green dots all over the inside sounds like too much flux was used on the install.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

So much for the 50 year guarantee!:laughing:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

jjbex said:


> You can send a piece of the copper to the Copper Development Association and they will do an analysis for you.


 I checked the home page and I guess Ill contact them...Id like to know..


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I would never say "Oh not me" on flux use but I question that because of the localization of one area over the years ...


No one suggested stray voltage..hmmmm


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

I (had) a similar problem with a 2 story home that was 10 years old. A customer of mine brought this home 3 years ago , we did not do the original plumbing and the first leak we fixed was in a 1/2 soft copper line under slab under the master bath between her lav and tub. It took 3 days to do the repair as the client's wife did not want any damage inside the bath it is wall to wall to ceiling marble , so I pulled the master tub and jack hammered a hole large enough to fit my *** and tunneled under. 3 months later leak #2, again under slab, 1/2 soft copper, between his lav and W/C, 9 hrs later that was done, at least it was closer to the exterior.The copper was green inside and the pinholes developed from the inside out. BTW the master bath 21' x14'.Home also has a re-cir system, but both leaks were on the cold lines. After the second leak I decided to check the home for a ground connection, there was no grounding anywhere. I do not know how this place passed any electrical inspection without it. Leak # 3 come before the electrician showed up, another 2 days under the master bath. He has not had any issues since multiple ground rods and connections were made 8 months ago. 

I sent a piece of the copper to Cerro first to see if the copper belonged to them. 3 weeks later they contacted me and sent the sample back split in two and informed me that it was Mueller's product. So off to them it went. I received a 3 page report on possible causes, one was the ground. The public water in his area is also like a rock, so we installed a softner. But sooner or later I know as I have informed him its only a matter of time before more appear as the damage has been done.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

ESPinc said:


> I (had) a similar problem with a 2 story home that was 10 years old. A customer of mine brought this home 3 years ago , we did not do the original plumbing and the first leak we fixed was in a 1/2 soft copper line under slab under the master bath between her lav and tub. It took 3 days to do the repair as the client's wife did not want any damage inside the bath it is wall to wall to ceiling marble , so I pulled the master tub and jack hammered a hole large enough to fit my *** and tunneled under. 3 months later leak #2, again under slab, 1/2 soft copper, between his lav and W/C, 9 hrs later that was done, at least it was closer to the exterior.The copper was green inside and the pinholes developed from the inside out. BTW the master bath 21' x14'.Home also has a re-cir system, but both leaks were on the cold lines. After the second leak I decided to check the home for a ground connection, there was no grounding anywhere. I do not know how this place passed any electrical inspection without it. Leak # 3 come before the electrician showed up, another 2 days under the master bath. He has not had any issues since multiple ground rods and connections were made 8 months ago.
> 
> I sent a piece of the copper to Cerro first to see if the copper belonged to them. 3 weeks later they contacted me and sent the sample back split in two and informed me that it was Mueller's product. So off to them it went. I received a 3 page report on possible causes, one was the ground. The public water in his area is also like a rock, so we installed a softner. But sooner or later I know as I have informed him its only a matter of time before more appear as the damage has been done.


 Someday, Id like to really have a firm grip on the copper issue so that id be able to say its either this or that with certitude. I think its getting closer..I like hearing about sending things off and getting responses..this will be my 1st.


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## Leakinator (Dec 2, 2008)

It was a brass pump housing? Right?


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

stillaround said:


> I would never say "Oh not me" on flux use but I question that because of the localization of one area over the years ...
> 
> 
> No one suggested stray voltage..hmmmm


Well the first obvious thoughts are electrolysis esp. when you mentioned the "green dots" inside the pipe.
I've had lots of dealings with it in the past (who hasn't?) but I'm far from an expert on pinpointing/isolating the source. But I've done a lot of commercial DHW in the past and have seen it both before and after it's become a problem. In my experience the problem manifests itself near a temperature change ie: water heater. Big problem in many hotels and restaurants with large consumption of DHW. (Not as big a problem but apparent in residential use with leaky faucets.) I'm sure there's other places but this is where I've encountered it as a problem the most.

Things I've done that seem to work: on water heating and HW storage tanks I always tie in with a brass nipple with a threaded brass union. From there I'll go with a copper MIP to/from the system. Dielectric unions have ended up in the scrap bins for the last 15 yrs at least. The idea is sound but they simply do not work! *ANY* galvanised fitting is verbotten, even the poly lined _dielectric_ ones.

As far as water quality goes, well, although the sodium content should be nil or very, very low after the softener I can't help think back to gr 8 science making batteries out of copper, _zinc_ and a saline solution . . .


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Leakinator said:


> It was a brass pump housing? Right?


No it was the red/purple iron body one


No I wont need a blindfold.........


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Miguel said:


> Well the first obvious thoughts are electrolysis esp. when you mentioned the "green dots" inside the pipe.
> I've had lots of dealings with it in the past (who hasn't?) but I'm far from an expert on pinpointing/isolating the source. But I've done a lot of commercial DHW in the past and have seen it both before and after it's become a problem. In my experience the problem manifests itself near a temperature change ie: water heater. Big problem in many hotels and restaurants with large consumption of DHW. (Not as big a problem but apparent in residential use with leaky faucets.) I'm sure there's other places but this is where I've encountered it as a problem the most.
> 
> Things I've done that seem to work: on water heating and HW storage tanks I always tie in with a brass nipple with a threaded brass union. From there I'll go with a copper MIP to/from the system. Dielectric unions have ended up in the scrap bins for the last 15 yrs at least. The idea is sound but they simply do not work! *ANY* galvanised fitting is verbotten, even the poly lined _dielectric_ ones.
> ...


 Well the temp is high there...I did use a d/e union and the original pinholes were 3 feet from the pump and each time I would change a piece out it wasnt long...untill today the last piece right on top of the heater...fortunately the manifold hasnt started leaking ---5 feet away...thtas still all copper.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Actually, a softener adds sodium instead of removing it. It removes other ions (salts) and replaces them with sodium ions. It's irrelevant to your battery comparison though because all electrolytes in a solution enable electrolysis to occur.




Miguel said:


> Well the first obvious thoughts are electrolysis esp. when you mentioned the "green dots" inside the pipe.
> I've had lots of dealings with it in the past (who hasn't?) but I'm far from an expert on pinpointing/isolating the source. But I've done a lot of commercial DHW in the past and have seen it both before and after it's become a problem. In my experience the problem manifests itself near a temperature change ie: water heater. Big problem in many hotels and restaurants with large consumption of DHW. (Not as big a problem but apparent in residential use with leaky faucets.) I'm sure there's other places but this is where I've encountered it as a problem the most.
> 
> Things I've done that seem to work: on water heating and HW storage tanks I always tie in with a brass nipple with a threaded brass union. From there I'll go with a copper MIP to/from the system. Dielectric unions have ended up in the scrap bins for the last 15 yrs at least. The idea is sound but they simply do not work! *ANY* galvanised fitting is verbotten, even the poly lined _dielectric_ ones.
> ...


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

stillaround said:


> Well the temp is high there...I did use a d/e union and the original pinholes were 3 feet from the pump and each time I would change a piece out it wasnt long...untill today the last piece right on top of the heater...fortunately the manifold hasnt started leaking ---5 feet away...thtas still all copper.


The "manifold" is part of the domestic distribution system or tied into a combo heating loop? (Don't laugh if that seems weird to you... most of the cooler climate colleagues will understand).

I could be wrong but I think your problem could be at the heater. Break apart the unions (make sure you have some replacement gaskets handy)* and check for buildup. If there's buildup there than THAT'S where the minerals being leached from the copper are ending up! Has the tank been flushed? Check for sediments in the bottom of the tank.
Deep six those di-E unions man! I used to think they were the way to go but they simply do not work as advertised!

*NB: mebbe bring along some 3/4" brass unions, some brass nipples 4" or longer (to replace those supplied with the WH) and some copper ftgs to tie it all back in with if the di-E unions seem pooched. Just a thought.

*EDIT*: I misread your response to leakinator <sp>. An IB pump is no good here!!! Should be bronze or stainless! Check that bad boy too!


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

What kind of velocities are we talking about on the recirc loop?


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Redwood said:


> What kind of velocities are we talking about on the recirc loop?


 I wont be able to find out till Saturday...I suppose the little Grunfos 3 speed 3/4" circ pump of 18 years ago is not going to ring enough bells. I wouldnt mind if that were it because thered be hope for the other copper.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Miguel said:


> The "manifold" is part of the domestic distribution system or tied into a combo heating loop? (Don't laugh if that seems weird to you... most of the cooler climate colleagues will understand).
> 
> I could be wrong but I think your problem could be at the heater. Break apart the unions (make sure you have some replacement gaskets handy)* and check for buildup. If there's buildup there than THAT'S where the minerals being leached from the copper are ending up! Has the tank been flushed? Check for sediments in the bottom of the tank.
> Deep six those di-E unions man! I used to think they were the way to go but they simply do not work as advertised!
> ...


Im going to delay response till I check the pump(never know I might have s/s or bronzed it) but I doubt that would do this ...based on only a gut feeling that is ..I have the d/e from top and it had no build up. There is a small heat loop for the floor and heated towel bar but at the other end of this system 20 ft away


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Grundfos ups 15-42F 3 speed cast iron pump.......I have to call the supplier and get some data to guess the velocity........


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

stillaround said:


> Grundfos ups 15-42F 3 speed cast iron pump.......I have to call the supplier and get some data to guess the velocity........


So it is a combi-system. 
hmmm, velocity shouldn't be an issue with that pump then, but being iron body might. That is if the domestic water flows thru that pump. ie: not a closed system.
Hopefully it's just the pump! Easy fix and you can once again stand there, fists on hips, chin held high and your superplumber cape flapping in the breeze. :thumbsup:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

The pump is on the domestic and its cast iron but Ive seen cast pumps on domestic for years and not react like this


The floor loop is under a heated towel bar with a solonoid zone valve alowing on off away from the trouble area.

Im glad you feel the velocity isnt an issue.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I'm seeing allot of posts suggesting that copper is somehow damaged be being attached to galvanized steel. You do realize this is completely untrue right?


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

Protech said:


> I'm seeing allot of posts suggesting that copper is somehow damaged be being attached to galvanized steel. You do realize this is completely untrue right?


I dunno about "completely". Depends on a lot of things and sometimes the dissimilar metals will live happily together for years upon years. Most times one, both or all the metallic components will be affected in one way or another.

To say it's completely untrue? Naw, I can't agree to that. But one way or another something is attacking the copper on this particular job.

*Edit* I also don't know if this is true or not but yrs ago I recall a seasoned plumber tell me that if you had to mix dissimilar metals it was, "brass with steel and copper with galvanised". Over the yrs I've noticed that statement holds water.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

The galvy is whats going to suffer in that relationship!


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Iron, steel and zinc all are lower on the galvanic series than copper. That means they will become a sacrificial anode and protect the copper. Of course that means they will corrode in its place but the rate that they corrode will depend on the area ratio of cathode to anode, flow rates, and the chemical makeup of the water. Bottom line, it's the ferrous stuff that’s going to leak, not the copper.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Correcto mundo



TheMaster said:


> The galvy is whats going to suffer in that relationship!


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I gotta video coming of what my area is starting to experience, but a little bird talked to me at a festival and told me what the water district has been doing lately that's causing it.

I was told things I should of never been told. :blink: Pays to have friends man! :laughing:



I'll post it here when I get the two clips stitched and on youtube. I call it a crying shame because lots of victims are going to come of this. I like to make money but the voice will never be loud enough to make them stop putting the crap in the mains to slow down the buildup.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Copper tube is susceptible to corrosion/erosion. Water temp, excessive fluid velocity caused by water pressure or an oversized pump, return line diameter, excess and/or non water soluble flux, unreamed tube, water ph and short radius 90° turns on the return line are the likely suspects as explained to my by a CDA staffer years ago.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

yep


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Im gonna post a pic before I send it off..dont know if it has any evidence thats visible...2 hrs


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Does this say anything?


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I gotta video coming of what my area is starting to experience, but a little bird talked to me at a festival and told me what the water district has been doing lately that's causing it.
> 
> I was told things I should of never been told. :blink: Pays to have friends man! :laughing:
> 
> ...


Such a tease Dunbar - out with it!:whistling2:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

any other angles?


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Protech said:


> any other angles?


tell me what you want I havent sent it off yet....Ill get some more soon....thanks for the interest


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Such a tease Dunbar - out with it!:whistling2:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Was that pipe installed vertically or horizontally dunbar? Was there a line of melted flux along the pitting?

I've got to tell you that I've never seen copper corrode in that manner. If I had to guess, I'd say it's from a chemical of some kind in the water. The way it's arranged in a straight line like that almost makes me think some kind of mineral is precipitating out of solution and forming a seed crystal.
Let us know what the lab results are.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

After watching that again I thought I saw flux on that line. I'm going with flux oxidation(though I've never seen it build up pits that high before)


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Every single pipe, every location I'm pulling these out of, look identical in nature and some of the formations are huge inside the pipe.

The newest would be one that it happened to which was 4 years old, and then by memory I'll go down the list of "years"


7

6

11

23

42

31

8


That's the ages of the ones I've done, some have been type L, most type M since it is allowed here.

Happens on the verticals and the horizontals, but mostly verticals leading to the second floors.

It's almost like the chemical introduced sources a weakness or certain vulnerability in the piping that causing certain areas to fail.

All look identical in nature, exact nature with the formations inside. That section of piping is being tested at a lab by the customer, so I have to follow up with them to see the results.

I've been told it's the chemical they are using to reverse the years of buildup inside the main lines that is aggressive in nature to the water supply. To have such a range in timeline of copper piping just start eating from the inside out...when for years it was as durable as brass...

the finger almost always points back at what has changed with the water quality.

I'm curious where the next 6 months puts all this, because if it keeps following this path and the frequency builds, it's going to be ugly and it's going to be on the news.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It sure looked like a line of melted flux that ran down the pipe to me. Is that not the case?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Nope, how would it explain the random situations, not having hardly any pinhole leaks in years, all to have them all a sudden start failing, horizontally and vertically.


It's covering a large range of time, from new to old, no real reason for its failure other than what I presume it to be...especially after what the water treatment guy is telling is their shortcut to minimize the inevitable, which is piping replacement.

I need to get the chemical names of what they are putting in...and that's like asking for FBI clearance basically. :whistling2:


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## Leakinator (Dec 2, 2008)

I would be curious to see an analysis of the water on the delivery end of that pipe.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Yeah, that does sound like a change in the water chemistry.



DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Nope, how would it explain the random situations, not having hardly any pinhole leaks in years, all to have them all a sudden start failing, horizontally and vertically.
> 
> 
> It's covering a large range of time, from new to old, no real reason for its failure other than what I presume it to be...especially after what the water treatment guy is telling is their shortcut to minimize the inevitable, which is piping replacement.
> ...


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