# Pex vs copper



## john433 (Mar 20, 2013)

I do commercial so everything I work on is cast and copper but I was gonna redo the water lines In my basement have not used pex much besides on a couple side jobs but not much what are the pros and cons about pex ? Besides price and speed difference


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

benefits, like you said running pex is cheaper then copper. But you will need pex tools, and just make sure you anchor it good so it does not look like spaghetti. If your just trying to save money, run flow guard gold cpvc piping. all you need is a cutter and flow guard glue. Really the stuff is pretty hardy. You can take it and make a figure 8 out of it and it will not break. Also unlike normal cpvc, you can take a hammer and smash it, and only a small part will, smash not crack like normal cpvc. Otherwise you will need to buy an ex-pander tool for uponor, or a crimp tool for normal pex. All 3 are good products if installed correctly.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I would like to see you make a figure 8 out of a piece of 5 year old flowguard gold....


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

never tried that! LOL not the same deal i take it?


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

Only tried fresh off the truck


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## suzie (Sep 1, 2010)

I have both in my 1949 home. I used Pex for the ease of work in difficult spots feeding to an upper level without busting into walls. If I were to build new I would run Pex off of a manifold and be done in a few hours.


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## john433 (Mar 20, 2013)

Not about money or anything I have all the copper I would need I have pex tools just was not sure of any benefits more volume or flow ? With pex .


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

The only advantage copper has over Uponor/Wirsbo PEX is the feeling of pride you get once the install is done. Other than that Copper is probably inferior...


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## suzie (Sep 1, 2010)

john433 said:


> I do commercial so everything I work on is cast and copper but I was gonna redo the water lines In my basement have not used pex much besides on a couple side jobs but not much what are the pros and cons about pex ? Besides price and speed difference


If you decide on Pex most wholesale shops will rent you the tools at a nominal fee.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

suzie said:


> I have both in my 1949 home. I used Pex for the ease of work in difficult spots feeding to an upper level without busting into walls. If I were to build new I would run Pex off of a manifold and be done in a few hours.


1949 home.... got hydronic heat??


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## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

john433 said:


> I do commercial so everything I work on is cast and copper but I was gonna redo the water lines In my basement have not used pex much besides on a couple side jobs but not much what are the pros and cons about pex ? Besides price and speed difference


Stick with copper. F that red and blue spaghetti.


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## MDPlumber1977 (Mar 4, 2013)

CPVC was the product of choice for years in the res. new con. market in this area. I have no real complaints about it besides the serviceability sucks. Due to the glue taking a while to set up, I have seen more and more repairs made with Sharkbite fittings. As for the PEX, I was not originally sold on the stuff but now that I have run a fair amount, I actually like Uponors product.


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

I hate to be the flow guard spokesman! LOL! but flow guard glue is 100% cure in 1 hour, and really i have turned the water on in 5 mins. Any joint i have ever done have never had a leak as long as it was actually glued. (again i like copper, as been plumbing for some time, but many company's here when copper shot up went to it, and have had no call backs yet. Many Many apt complex's years and years ago. (at least they didn't call me :})


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

I also prefer copper water pipe to pex personally. I re did my house in pex mainly because my well water will take the paint off your car even with my neutralizer, softener, greensand, uv light, and carbon filter. I will only use Viega or wirsbo/uponer pex and fittings. Best quality I've seen in my opinion.


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## MDPlumber1977 (Mar 4, 2013)

gardon said:


> I hate to be the flow guard spokesman! LOL! but flow guard glue is 100% cure in 1 hour, and really i have turned the water on in 5 mins. Any joint i have ever done have never had a leak as long as it was actually glued. (again i like copper, as been plumbing for some time, but many company's here when copper shot up went to it, and have had no call backs yet. Many Many apt complex's years and years ago. (at least they didn't call me :})


We usually wait a couple of hours on the hot side. I cant say I have never jumped the gun and cranked the valve after a half hour but I have seen a home get flooded a good few years back from not waiting. A tech had gone to repair a water line that was leaking in the wall on the master WC of a new con. home. He cut out the 90 in question, coupled everything back together, cranked up the water after about 20 min, and down the street he went. What he didn't know was that the toilet supply was actually crossed and was being fed with hot. Anyway, best we could tell based on the timer, just after he left the HW recirc kicks on and kaboom!! Water ran for approx 1-3/4 hrs before anyone came home. Since that day I have always tried to be patient. Now 1 point of interest is the dry time listed by the manufacturer. The back of the can says to wait 6 hour for hot supply while the product literature from charlotte says you are good @ 30 min.


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## brians plumbing (Jan 12, 2012)

Pex lasts longer than copper but make sure your transitions to copper stubouts are corect.


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## 100 Watt (Aug 11, 2011)

If its mild temps, @50 or better - we'll wait at least 20 minutes before turning water on CPVC. Never had any issues. 

I do agree about the cpvc getting brittle after a couple years. I still use it and recommend it for most jobs.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

brians plumbing said:


> Pex lasts longer than copper but make sure your transitions to copper stubouts are corect.


Tell me that in 20 years.......................


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Tell me that in 20 years.......................


There is PB here that has been in service for 25+ years doing just fine.


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

If using the Viega fittings with PEX i try and run nothing but 3/4 especially if its a 2 story. Look in the fittings and you'll know why.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

JDGA80 said:


> If using the Viega fittings with PEX i try and run nothing but 3/4 especially if its a 2 story. Look in the fittings and you'll know why.


No doubt they are choked down big time. Code says its ok to run 1/2" to two fixtures off 3/4" but I wont do it with pex. Every fixture gets its own riser of 1/2" when I rough, I also keep every branch of 1/2" less than 5' long. I do it that way with copper also. Bigger is better and it doesn't cost that much extra to make it better. Never had a volume problem that way. Especially with some kind of crazy spa type shower set up, witch seems to be the norm these days. 3/4" directly to the diverter.


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## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

brians plumbing said:


> Pex lasts longer than copper but make sure your transitions to copper stubouts are corect.


They said the same thing about Quest (polybutylene)


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## phishfood (Nov 18, 2012)

Actually, I have seen more failures on copper than PB around here.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

PB issue was quality control. PEX is going to have similar issues if plumbers keep buying crimpers and fittings from the big box stores instead of using Uponor or Viega. There is a lot of PB here still in service with no issues.


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

Back in the '90s, I repiped houses and trailers with Polybutylene and installed copper or CPVC, I was doing 2 houses a week for a few years and I saw leaks everywhere with the poly. The plastic fittings, the poly it self, the copper rings, the brass fittings, the copper fittings. I don't miss that work at all.

Pex either wasn't big in that area yet or no one wanted it, I can't remember.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

phishfood said:


> Actually, I have seen more failures on copper than PB around here.


Most likely because there is way more copper out there than PB these days most of it is gone by now, occasionally I come across some PB still in a house maybe 4 houses a year. Actually I was in one today that had it and it looked like a mess it was a crown boiler installed 24 years ago all the loops were PB. and the only reason the leaks stopped was because the water is so hard in this house, the mineral deposits on the fittings and drooling down all the pipe sealed themselves. Thankfully I was only there to do a cleaning and tune up. Not to screw with that mess he has. I am doing a boiler estimate for him though and it will include ripping out all the PB from the mechanical room and replacing with copper.


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## PlumbBeer (Mar 28, 2013)

I'm a huge fan of wirsbo pex. When you repipe an attic in Texas in the summer, you want to get out as fast as possible and wirsbo allows for that. As far as cpvc goes, I don't like it only for the fact of thermal expansion. You always have customers swearing they hear a drip in the wall, then just to get them to quit complaining you have to put in air chambers to stop the "dripping" sound. Even though there are no visual signs of water, they still swear there is a leak.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

PlumbBeer said:


> I'm a huge fan of wirsbo pex. When you repipe an attic in Texas in the summer, you want to get out as fast as possible and wirsbo allows for that. As far as cpvc goes, I don't like it only for the fact of thermal expansion. You always have customers swearing they hear a drip in the wall, then just to get them to quit complaining you have to put in air chambers to stop the "dripping" sound. Even though there are no visual signs of water, they still swear there is a leak.


Try expanding those rings on a zero deg day. You would like Viega better. Probably dont have that issue in TX though.


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## PlumbBeer (Mar 28, 2013)

Yeah. Dont have too many 0 degree days here.lol. but we get a mean 40 degrees during the winter here and its hell expanding the 2" rings.......lol


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

PlumbBeer said:


> Yeah. Dont have too many 0 degree days here.lol. but we get a mean 40 degrees during the winter here and its hell expanding the 2" rings.......lol


40 deg is a nice hoodie day here lol.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

PlumbBeer said:


> I'm a huge fan of wirsbo pex. When you repipe an attic in Texas in the summer, you want to get out as fast as possible and wirsbo allows for that. As far as cpvc goes, I don't like it only for the fact of thermal expansion. You always have customers swearing they hear a drip in the wall, then just to get them to quit complaining you have to put in air chambers to stop the "dripping" sound. Even though there are no visual signs of water, they still swear there is a leak.


Do tell, how do air chambers stop the 'dripping' sound??


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Do tell, how do air chambers stop the 'dripping' sound??


I would assume maybe better hangers would help, or more of them. Something with maybe a coating for cushion to reduce the noise. Air chambers have their place in a plumbing system if necessary for fast closing fixtures like washing machine. But if your installing them to make the pipes not make the "ticking" sound from expansion and contraction then your just putting a band aid on a gaping wound. Dont see how they would do anything at all if this were the case, except waste time and money.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

theplumbinator said:


> I would assume maybe better hangers would help, or more of them. Something with maybe a coating for cushion to reduce the noise. Air chambers have their place in a plumbing system if necessary for fast closing fixtures like washing machine. But if your installing them to make the pipes not make the "ticking" sound from expansion and contraction then your just putting a band aid on a gaping wound. Dont see how they would do anything at all if this were the case, except waste time and money.


Those dead end pipe are useless after being used one week... only way to go is the precharged type.. but question here, how do the air chamber stop a dripping sound on cpvc??


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Those dead end pipe are useless after being used one week... only way to go is the precharged type.. but question here, how do the air chamber stop a dripping sound on cpvc??


I know the answer to that question, its in my post above at the end. But im as curious as you to hear his answer too. Air chambers that guys make are pointless fill up with water and dont work. I figure he was speaking of the tiny ones that look like a pancake expansion tank. Like an extrol .05 lol.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

PlumbBeer said:


> ...You always have customers swearing they hear a drip in the wall, then just to get them to quit complaining you have to put in air chambers to stop the "dripping" sound. Even though there are no visual signs of water, they still swear there is a leak.


That can happen with any uninsulated hot water line strapped securely to a wood stud. 

Copper, CPVC, PB, PEX...they all do it.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> That can happen with any uninsulated hot water line strapped securely to a wood stud.
> 
> Copper, CPVC, PB, PEX...they all do it.


Exactly thats why i always use code approved hangers that insulate the pipe from the wood. its legal to let the pipe touch wood but you know its going to make noise sooner or later.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Turn the tv up. Then you can't hear it


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> That can happen with any uninsulated hot water line strapped securely to a wood stud.
> 
> Copper, CPVC, PB, PEX...they all do it.


Same with those heating pipes in walls and thru floors.. big differeance when you have plumbers/hackers vs real hydronic guys installing them.. hey I'm deaf and I get call for those problems, but you guys call it 'dripping' while we call it expanison and contraction..


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## Aqua (Apr 22, 2013)

i always drill the holes larger and use mickies "hold rite clamps" inside the holes to keep it off of the wood and secure the pipe


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## PlumbBeer (Mar 28, 2013)

theplumbinator said:


> I know the answer to that question, its in my post above at the end. But im as curious as you to hear his answer too. Air chambers that guys make are pointless fill up with water and dont work. I figure he was speaking of the tiny ones that look like a pancake expansion tank. Like an extrol .05 lol.


If we are being 100% honest, when I was first an apprentice I did residential new construction. I worked with an old plumber that did our warranty work for the company. We would get these types of calls all the time. The old plumber I worked with never really explained anything to me, just showed me what to do and I did it. ( In my defense, I didn't work with him for very long, only a couple of months). All I know is we did it and it worked and I just did it two days ago and it worked. I know that's a poor answer but it is tried and true. Had a 3/4 cpvc line leaking in a ceiling two days ago and the customer swore it was leaking about 5' away in one direction and about 5' away in the other direction. After hearing what he was talking about I knew what was going on so instead of just repairing the line with 2 couplings, I used a coupling and a tee and put an 18" riser with a cap on it. After we fired it up, no more dripping noise. Customer was amazed. So long story short, I don't know. I assume it runs along the same principle as water hammer, but if that were the case, I would get a call back about a week later. ???????


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

PlumbBeer said:


> If we are being 100% honest, when I was first an apprentice I did residential new construction. I worked with an old plumber that did our warranty work for the company. We would get these types of calls all the time. The old plumber I worked with never really explained anything to me, just showed me what to do and I did it. ( In my defense, I didn't work with him for very long, only a couple of months). All I know is we did it and it worked and I just did it two days ago and it worked. I know that's a poor answer but it is tried and true. Had a 3/4 cpvc line leaking in a ceiling two days ago and the customer swore it was leaking about 5' away in one direction and about 5' away in the other direction. After hearing what he was talking about I knew what was going on so instead of just repairing the line with 2 couplings, I used a coupling and a tee and put an 18" riser with a cap on it. After we fired it up, no more dripping noise. Customer was amazed. So long story short, I don't know. I assume it runs along the same principle as water hammer, but if that were the case, I would get a call back about a week later. ???????


Was it on hot or cold water line?


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## PlumbBeer (Mar 28, 2013)

Hot line.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

My philosophy on plumbing is know what your doing and why your doing it. Dont just do things out of habit because thats what the guy that taught u did. Learn why u do it. I've worked with guys that know the code correctly because thats what they were taught. But when you ask them why its the code? you get an answer like this "cause its what the code says" see where im going with this? If you want to be a good plumber follow the code and do what you were taught. If you want to be a great plumber learn why we do what that book says to do.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

theplumbinator said:


> My philosophy on plumbing is know what your doing and why your doing it. Dont just do things out of habit because thats what the guy that taught u did. Learn why u do it. I've worked with guys that know the code correctly because thats what they were taught. But when you ask them why its the code you get an answer like this "cause its what the code says" see where im going with this? If you want to be a good plumber follow the code and do what you were taught. If you want to be a great plumber learn why we do what that book says to do.


Oh... as a hearing impaired person, growing up missing out a lot of things, I resorted to asking " why?" to everything being done, I won't stand down to " its just the way we been doing it or its what the code book say so". There's is a reason for every thing printed and I want to know why and have the answers when people as me WHY!!... inspectors hate me for this as they can't come up with explanation except using the book for excuse of knowing nothing.


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

john433 said:


> I do commercial so everything I work on is cast and copper but I was gonna redo the water lines In my basement have not used pex much besides on a couple side jobs but not much what are the pros and cons about pex ? Besides price and speed difference


 
I think the real question is what/why are you doing side jobs? It is frowned upon on this site like D.I.Y. here. :no:


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Fast fry said:


> I think the real question is what/why are you doing side jobs? It is frowned upon on this site like D.I.Y. here. :no:


FF, where the hell have ya been??


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

:laughing: working on your own house is one side job no one wants to do. I procrastinate on my own house until the nagging gets to be to much to bare.


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]i[/YOUTUBE]


rjbphd said:


> FF, where the hell have ya been??


Just came off of an industrial shutdown in the kootneys bc . Acid ,lead and mercury plant . Will post pictures . They paid me 15k for two weeks . And yes working on my house .


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## fhrooter72 (Apr 12, 2011)

Uponor!!!!


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## shakeyglenn68 (Dec 29, 2010)

theplumbinator said:


> :laughing: working on your own house is one side job no one wants to do. I procrastinate on my own house until the nagging gets to be to much to bare.


Thats why I built a second house she had hers, I had mine. Damn the luck got divorced she got both & the land (240 acres)


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## suzie (Sep 1, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> 1949 home.... got hydronic heat??


No forced air and some radiant


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