# 2" Braze Joint



## UA25 (Jan 11, 2013)

Just thought I would post a picture of my braze joint from this Thursday for a water service going into a building we were putting the underground in. It's not the best looking but I welcome your comments.

Ryan


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## Justin Gruver (Apr 9, 2012)

Thought the code book says no brazing or soldering for water service until you are inside building?


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## UA25 (Jan 11, 2013)

*2" braze*

Sorry, I was vague in post. Yes it was inside the building.

Ryan


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Looks good for the conditions


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

UA25 said:


> Just thought I would post a picture of my braze joint from this Thursday for a water service going into a building we were putting the underground in. It's not the best looking but I welcome your comments.
> 
> Ryan


Yes...but did you do it without getting your uniform dirty? :laughing::jester:

I have it on questionable authority that the best plumbers don't get dirty when they work


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## UA25 (Jan 11, 2013)

johnlewismcleod said:


> Yes...but did you do it without getting your uniform dirty? :laughing::jester:
> 
> I have it on questionable authority that the best plumbers don't get dirty when they work


 
Brother, It was towards the end of the day and I was muddy mess. But to be honest I love that about this job:yes:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

That is by the book. When I worked new construction for local 630, I did the same. Copper water lines got brazed below slab.

When I worked non-union, I had not even heard of brazing. I'm not picking on anyone, but having worked both non-union and union, I can say that us union guys (I still pay my dues) are better trained than non-union.


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## Plumb Bob (Mar 9, 2011)

johnlewismcleod said:


> Yes...but did you do it without getting your uniform dirty? :laughing::jester:
> 
> I have it on questionable authority that the best plumbers don't get dirty when they work


And don't they smell good?


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## Plumb Bob (Mar 9, 2011)

I will be brazing a 2" copper water main next week.


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## Adamche (Feb 10, 2012)

Looks ok, maybe got the solder a shade too hot!


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## JPL (Feb 8, 2013)

We have to braze Type K and have 30" soil cover is San Francisco for water service/Fire combo lines. I was struggling with one last month.


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## Justin Gruver (Apr 9, 2012)

So I have to ask, is brazing supposed to be stronger? Cheaper? Easier? More reliable? Why not use solder or is this a localized code for doing a water service?


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## JPL (Feb 8, 2013)

What set up do you all use to braze??


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

JPL said:


> What set up do you all use to braze??


I used to favor oxy/acetyl. rigs, but about 4 years ago I finally retired my old Goss B-tank rig and replaced it with a Lenox turbo rig.

These new turbo rigs are hot as firecrackers...make brazing easy with no risk of blow out :yes::thumbsup:


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Justin Gruver said:


> So I have to ask, is brazing supposed to be stronger? Cheaper? Easier? More reliable? Why not use solder or is this a localized code for doing a water service?


Joints below slab must be brazed.

No...it's not better IMO (and certainly not cheaper :laughing. 

Brazing temps make the copper more brittle and although the weld lasts forever, they tend to crack and fail next to the weld if there is any movement over time.


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

Just bought a pound of 15% brazing rods. That's 28 in the pound. $130 I think was the cost. Not cheaper by a long shot. Mixed with a minimum of L copper underground.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

JPL said:


> What set up do you all use to braze??


Up to 2" i'll use a b-tank with the appropriate tip. 2-1/2+ gets oxy/acet.

I once cushion clamped 2 turbo torches with a32s to a piece of unistrut to get a couple of 4" joints when I didn't have the gas wrenches handy.

"Whaddya mean you went through 6 b-tanks today?!?" :laughing:


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

Oh and the turbo torch tip I just bought for up to 1" was $80!


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

johntheplumber said:


> Oh and the turbo torch tip I just bought for up to 1" was $80!


What size?


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

U666A said:


> What size?


A8 or a11 I think.


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## JPL (Feb 8, 2013)

I used a B-tank/A-14 for 2". Worked good for pre-fab. I had to borrow a Oxy/Acet rig when I was in the trench. I think I was burning up all the Oxygen and couldn't get good heat. Plus it was raining on me.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Goss ga 32. It's the biggest they make. And it doesn't scream like turbo brand tips. Goss is the chit. It's all the tips I use with my Lenox b bottle rig. 
Code states. No joints under slab but if must have a joint under slab it must be brazed !!! If its under Crete if any type. Even side walk it gets 15% sil flos. If you get it cherry red ur getting it to hot. But I think a well done brazed joint is stronger by far and the copper isn't weakned to much


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## andy86 (Mar 5, 2013)

Any of you use that flux for brazing? Does it do any good? I was taught to braze by just cleaning the pipe and fitting and throwing the torch on it haven't had a leak yet


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## andy86 (Mar 5, 2013)

I should of said the flux made for brazing


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

The only time you use brazing flux is when brazing copper to brass. For that application it works well.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Tommy plumber said:


> That is by the book. When I worked new construction for local 630, I did the same. Copper water lines got brazed below slab.
> 
> When I worked non-union, I had not even heard of brazing. I'm not picking on anyone, but having worked both non-union and union, I can say that us union guys (I still pay my dues) are better trained than non-union.


I wouldn't go that far. I'm not union and I have brazed 4" k, soldered 6" L, poured 12" cast blah blah blah.... On the other hand I worked with guys that got out of the union that should have picked a different trade. Honestly, one ex union guy spent 8 hours packing and pouring a 6" wye, ⅛ and eco and every joint leaked. 

I've been lucky enough to work for some great companies that have taught me a ton of different things that most guys will never see. I took advantage of every opportunity I could. Just because the union offers training doesn't mean everyone takes advantage of it and even if they try to it doesn't mean they took anything away from it.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Imma be right back with some popcorn.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I think I'll sit back. 
My Dis-Organized brethren might not like what I type.


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## andy86 (Mar 5, 2013)

When it comes to being trained I completely agree that no matter whether your union trained or non union trained its all what you decide to get out of it but i would say at least for iowa while the non union training has come a long way in the last few years i did a walk through of the union training center in cedar rapids a few years ago and all I can say is wow they everything from mock hospital rooms for piping oxygen to full sized homes to practice rough-ins / trim outs commercial mechanical rooms for hydronics and whatnot not to mention an entire building for there welding training unfortunately i dont non union programs will ever have the money for that kind of training or the time for there students


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## UA25 (Jan 11, 2013)

*2" braze joint*



bct p&h said:


> I wouldn't go that far. I'm not union and I have brazed 4" k, soldered 6" L, poured 12" cast blah blah blah.... On the other hand I worked with guys that got out of the union that should have picked a different trade. Honestly, one ex union guy spent 8 hours packing and pouring a 6" wye, ⅛ and eco and every joint leaked.
> 
> I've been lucky enough to work for some great companies that have taught me a ton of different things that most guys will never see. I took advantage of every opportunity I could. Just because the union offers training doesn't mean everyone takes advantage of it and even if they try to it doesn't mean they took anything away from it.


Tommy Plumber was simply making a statement regarding our training. And yes it is certainly better then what non-union contractors have to offer. But the real training comes from the field. And taking advantage of every opportunity to learn something new and my all time favorite is asking my J-Man any question I can think of as it relates to plumbing and the task at hand. 

And I could say the same thing as was mentioned in the above qoute about non-union hands I have worked around. Some that I have worked around are very skilled and contribute to our craft. While some should have picked a different career.

Ryan


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

UA25 said:


> Tommy Plumber was simply making a statement regarding our training. And yes it is certainly better then what non-union contractors have to offer. But the real training comes from the field. And taking advantage of every opportunity to learn something new and my all time favorite is asking my J-Man any question I can think of as it relates to plumbing and the task at hand.
> 
> And I could say the same thing as was mentioned in the above qoute about non-union hands I have worked around. Some that I have worked around are very skilled and contribute to our craft. While some should have picked a different career.
> 
> Ryan


Better training. Maybe. And I'm sure thers union guy that need to pic a different job

I could hold my own next to any union plumber. And I don't have to worry about being put on the bench or fighting for tools or benched cuz a diff union hall took over 

Ur rite about the field and learning all you can but it seems to me union guys look down on nonunion guys. Wich I don't care for one bit !!!!


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## JPL (Feb 8, 2013)

The whole Union/Non thing doesn't bother me so much anymore like it used to. I was both trained in and work for a non-union shop. I have five full years of 8hr days of hands on training. I know I have strong skills and have gained a understanding of plumbing systems on a "living" level. 

That being said, I also know that my training was limited too and in the order of what jobs my company had. Obviously Union schooling has an organized linier structure. That's one of the reasons I hang out here and read posts. There simply so much to learn. There are some photos where I know I could do better, lots that humble me, and some that I have no idea of what I'm looking at. Just my $.02.


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## MDPlumber1977 (Mar 4, 2013)

andy86 said:


> Any of you use that flux for brazing? Does it do any good? I was taught to braze by just cleaning the pipe and fitting and throwing the torch on it haven't had a leak yet



When brazing with silver solder rods, they typically contain phosphorus. 15/5 for ex. contains 15% silver and 5% phosphorus. The Phosphorus acts as a fluxing agent when joining copper to copper so flux is not required. When joining brass and copper a flux such as "Stay Brite" is recommended. In lieu silver solder rods depending on the application you can also use silver bearing solder. Again I use "Stay Brite" #8 silver solder for this. It joins a ton of different metals with relatively low heat.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

I'm not trying to **** on the union here. There are some great guys that are in the union, but at the same time there are some hacks in there too. I wasn't all that fond of the "union guys are better trained" blanket statement. I've worked with guys that were in the union for 20+ years and I was not impressed. They all had the same excuse for not being in anymore, lack of work. I can almost guarantee it had more to do with their work than lack of work. So obviously I wasn't working with the best the union had to offer. 

I've lost jobs because they wanted union guys doing the work and I've seen the job after they did it. Sometimes I am impressed, sometimes I'm not. I'm just saying that when someone assumes that just because I'm non union that it automatically means I don't have the same or better qualifications than a union guy it pisses me off.


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## Mpc_mhayes (Nov 27, 2012)

Union / non-union can’t cure stupid. Some Plumbers are better learners then others.


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## Plumb Bob (Mar 9, 2011)

Back on topic...


Here is a pic of 2" copper brazing I did yesterday for underground under slab.


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## andy86 (Mar 5, 2013)

Do you have have to use k copper when brazing water services? I've only had to braze refrigerant lines never water services


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## Plumb Bob (Mar 9, 2011)

andy86 said:


> Do you have have to use k copper when brazing water services? I've only had to braze refrigerant lines never water services


Type L copper. Brazing is required inside building under slab.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

andy86 said:


> Do you have have to use k copper when brazing water services? I've only had to braze refrigerant lines never water services


K copper is required in my state when using copper for a water service. Any copper tubing can be brazed generally speaking......

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Plumbing Zone


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## Plumb Bob (Mar 9, 2011)

ILPlumber said:


> K copper is required in my state when using copper for a water service. Any copper tubing can be brazed generally speaking......
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Plumbing Zone


Type L is fine for underground in California unless K is specified in plans.


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