# Multi. WH. failure



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I have installed 3 - 66 gal. State elect. wh's at the local Ford Dealer in the last 24 mo. The last was installed in Oct. 09. There is nothing unusual about the installation. It feeds 6 lavs and a hand sink. All have failed at the same spot, @ 5 o clock on the lower thread o let. State is saying they have no other reports on this. We have @ 130 psi on the main, no PRV, We found a buried BFP this morning. The relieve valve has started discharging, normal for this situation, but that is an easy fix. Not any where near the pressure rating of the tank. Anyone ever known of any stray currents causing a problem? I will come up with a answer before installing a new one. Any ideas?


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## prontoplumbing (Nov 20, 2009)

I am gonna recommend you install an expansion tank right off that bat hope this helps especially when there is a back flow preventer and def. needs a prv high pressure and expansion not good.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

prontoplumbing said:


> I am gonna recommend you install an expansion tank right off that bat hope this helps especially when there is a back flow preventer and def. needs a prv high pressure and expansion not good.


We are going to do ET/PRV. But that is not the cause of these tank failures. We have WH's all over town some wo/ Prv that are not failing. They are not getting over 150 psi. due to T&P.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PRV and some form of thermal expansion control. If you use a thermal expansion tank use the 5 gal model. Why such a large tank for lav's and a mop sink?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> PRV and some form of thermal expansion control. If you use a thermal expansion tank use the 5 gal model. Why such a large tank for lav's and a mop sink?


Hell, I don't know? They had a comercial 100 gal. in there before. But there has got to be something else. This is not the only one installed in simular situation around here.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

slickrick said:


> We are going to do ET/PRV. But that is not the cause of these tank failures. We have WH's all over town some wo/ Prv that are not failing. They are not getting over 150 psi. due to T&P.


I've seen brand new t&P valves 1st hand not open and the pressure go up to over 250#. The dumbass homeowner still refused to let me do somthing about the thermal expansion after he watched the gauge himself. I made a note of the danger on his invoice and had him AND his wife sign it and sent a copy to the building department with signature required. It's a multi million dollar house and i'm not taking the hit when it floods from a water supply blowing out somwhere due to high ass pressure its getting somtimes. Another example of an educated idiot I've worked for.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I've seen brand new t&P valves 1st hand not open and the pressure go up to over 250#. The dumbass homeowner still refused to let me do somthing about the thermal expansion after he watched the gauge himself. I made a note of the danger on his invoice and had him AND his wife sign it and sent a copy to the building department with signature required. It's a multi million dollar house and i'm not taking the hit when it floods from a water supply blowing out somwhere due to high ass pressure its getting somtimes. Another example of an educated idiot I've worked for.


But the T&P seems to be working fine. I can fix the pressure issue. But why are they failing at the same spot?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

If the tank is over taxed and ran out of hot water on a regular basis the tank will sweat between the insualtion and the bare steel inner tank causing it to rust from the outside in. If the t&p valve was being popped off all night and dribbling, the cold supply will sweat and possibly rust out the inlet? hell I dunno you may have just got some bad ones,I'm just throwing ideas out.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> If the tank is over taxed and ran out of hot water on a regular basis the tank will sweat between the insualtion and the bare steel inner tank causing it to rust from the outside in. If the t&p valve was being popped off all night and dribbling, the cold supply will sweat and possibly rust out the inlet? hell I dunno you may have just got some bad ones,I'm just throwing ideas out.


It looks like new, plenty of hw. The orig. was 3 phase, I wonder if it could be an elect. issue when they switched it? Elect. is coming in the pm.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

slickrick said:


> It looks like new, plenty of hw. The orig. was 3 phase, I wonder if it could be an elect. issue when they switched it? Elect. is coming in the pm.


 It would be nice to know if its the electrical because it will be a 1st for me. I think you got bad tanks. Could it be the adapter your using??? did you reuse the same adpater into the heater eeach time you replaced it?...funny its leaking in the same spot everytime,makes me think you got a bad batch.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> It would be nice to know if its the electrical because it will be a 1st for me. I think you got bad tanks. Could it be the adapter your using??? did you reuse the same adpater into the heater eeach time you replaced it?...funny its leaking in the same spot everytime,makes me think you got a bad batch.


Which adt? It goes from pex to flex connectors.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I agree it sounds like a defect. But the first one was 2 yrs ago.


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## plumb4fun (Feb 18, 2009)

Hecho in Mexico?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

The rep. just called and they are willing to give me another wh. I am going to install a 52 gal. this time just to see. I think their welding machine is outa wack.


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## mselkee (Aug 13, 2009)

Don't know if this helps, but I just finished up with a customer that had the same problem with a stainless steel indirect water heater. They have failed at the same place as your failures. They replaced 4 over a period of 6 years. Manufacturer said never seen this before ever. We changed horses in mid stream and went with another product.

I suspect the problem was due to water and or electrical currents. The manufacturer's spec. in this case called for copper MIPs screwed directly into the tank.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I wonder if they run different sizes on different lines or all on the same line?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

The tanks connected with pex(plastic) so if its electrical its coming from the water heaters electrical supply....electricity likes to eat at the point the current is discharging to ground. I dunno seems like slickrick has alot of electrical issues,like that badger 5,you must be a super conductor:laughing:.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> The tanks connected with pex(plastic) so if its electrical its coming from the water heaters electrical supply....electricity likes to eat at the point the current is discharging to ground. I dunno seems like slickrick has alot of electrical issues,like that badger 5,you must be a super conductor:laughing:.


Maybe local sparky's


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

slickrick said:


> Maybe local sparky's


 I'll blame them for it raining in a heartbeat....imo everythings their fault.:laughing: I had a customer who had a sparky come out to change the outlet on her sump pump. It had a piggy back float/pump plug in. The dumbass replaces the plug and then plugs the pump and the float into seperate plug-ins on the power outlet. The pump must have came on and before it stopped he just walked off because he told her it was working. It burnt the pump up and her basement flooded ruining her water heater and heating system plus everything else she had down there. Cost him some money:yes:. She didn't have a backup pump but that didn't matter,he still had to pay. When I told him what I found his response was "Huh?" he thought I was joking him......he thought one was the main pump and one was the backup pump.:laughing::no:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I'll blame them for it raining in a heartbeat....imo everythings their fault.:laughing: I had a customer who had a sparky come out to change the outlet on her sump pump. It had a piggy back float/pump plug in. The dumbass replaces the plug and then plugs the pump and the float into seperate plug-ins on the power outlet. The pump must have came on and before it stopped he just walked off because he told her it was working. It burnt the pump up and her basement flooded ruining her water heater and heating system plus everything else she had down there. Cost him some money:yes:. She didn't have a backup pump but that didn't matter,he still had to pay. When I told him what I found his response was "Huh?" he thought I was joking him......he thought one was the main pump and one was the backup pump.:laughing::no:


Had the same thing happen. :laughing:


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## fhrace (Sep 7, 2009)

Yeah thats a funny one.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

IF it is an electrical problem with the water heater, shouldn't you be able disconnect various components of the water heater and look for cont. between said component and ground?

The above has a plumber correctness factor of 8.67%.

A GOOD electrician (not a wire puller)could help better than I.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Had the elect. checked out. Has to be a defect. New one coming tomorrow. Adding PRV and expansion tank.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Use of dielectric fittings on a SS tank usually voids the warranty.



mselkee said:


> Don't know if this helps, but I just finished up with a customer that had the same problem with a stainless steel indirect water heater. They have failed at the same place as your failures. They replaced 4 over a period of 6 years. Manufacturer said never seen this before ever. We changed horses in mid stream and went with another product.
> 
> I suspect the problem was due to water and or electrical currents. The manufacturer's spec. in this case called for copper MIPs screwed directly into the tank.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Repeated high pressures can cause the enamel to develop hairline cracks as the tank swells slightly(not visible to the eye).Steel is more elastic than the enamel liner. These hair line cracks usually corrode quickly as you now have a very small surface area exposed to a high surface area of more noble metal (copper, brass) in a thin piece of metal.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

" @ 5 o clock on the lower thread o let. "

Are you saying the lower element threads @ 5 o'clock ??

If so ,,, you got a bad batch of heaters and threads .


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Cal said:


> " @ 5 o clock on the lower thread o let. "
> 
> Are you saying the lower element threads @ 5 o'clock ??
> 
> If so ,,, you got a bad batch of heaters and threads .


The thread o let that is welded to the tank. the weld is leaking @ the 5 o'clock position. same on all 3 heaters. They said I am the only one.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

slickrick said:


> The thread o let that is welded to the tank. the weld is leaking @ the 5 o'clock position. same on all 3 heaters. They said I am the only one.


 I say "they" are FOS.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I say "they" are FOS.


You would think "they" would want to know about a potential problem. Our pressure may make it show up, but I feel it is a defective weld. I am going to spend a little time to document this one. Going CSI.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

slickrick said:


> The thread o let that is welded to the tank. the weld is leaking @ the 5 o'clock position. same on all 3 heaters. They said I am the only one.


 BU*** SH**T !!! They got a bad weld and don't want to make it right . 

See ,,, we could learn a lot from Toyota:

" We got a F**Ked up thing-a- ma-jig ,, AND WE WILL FIX THEM FOR FREE ! " :thumbup:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Sounds like a welder doesn't know how to overlap the start and finish of the bead around the bung.

The glass lining probably filled it okay for a while until the high pressure and pressure cycling killed it...:whistling2:

Bottom line I suspect you may make it through the warranty with pressure regulation and a thermal expansion tank but they're junk.:yes:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Sounds like a welder doesn't know how to overlap the start and finish of the bead around the bung.
> 
> The glass lining probably filled it okay for a while until the high pressure and pressure cycling killed it...:whistling2:
> 
> Bottom line I suspect you may make it through the warranty with pressure regulation and a thermal expansion tank but they're junk.:yes:


Do you think w/h tanks are hand welded?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Probably a robot...
With a seam follower...
Humans do program them though and it can be tough...
I set up used an earlier version of one of these in the late 90's...
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/robotic-arc-welding/
We had a lot of problems with the welds it produced due to minor dimensional variations in the parts we were attempting to weld on it...
The problem was we realized that we were never going to have the supplied parts have a tolerance tight enough for what the robot needed...
Humans could do it better!
The robot became a glorified plasma cutter.:whistling2:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Probably a robot...
> With a seam follower...
> Humans do program them though and it can be tough...
> I set up used an earlier version of one of these in the late 90's...
> ...


That could explain a bad run on that size w/h if it was programed wrong.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

slickrick said:


> That could explain a bad run on that size w/h if it was programed wrong.


Yep... They might have needed a little extra extra heat for the added thickness of the start of the bead, 
or, 
A little more overlap...

Or, maybe even a little less grinding by Jose...

Who knows I can't even see it from here...:laughing:


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## AndersenPlumbing (Jan 23, 2010)

After having 3 leak, I would have my sales rep out there in a heart beat.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

RedRubicon2004 said:


> After having 3 leak, I would have my sales rep out there in a heart beat.


After my CSI, I am going to raise a stink.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Cut that section of the tank out and have the weld x-rayed.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

did it look kinda like this?


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I've seen brand new t&P valves 1st hand not open and the pressure go up to over 250#. The dumbass homeowner still refused to let me do somthing about the thermal expansion after he watched the gauge himself. I made a note of the danger on his invoice and had him AND his wife sign it and sent a copy to the building department with signature required. It's a multi million dollar house and i'm not taking the hit when it floods from a water supply blowing out somwhere due to high ass pressure its getting somtimes. Another example of an educated idiot I've worked for.



:laughing: Never heard that one.:laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I've seen brand new t&P valves 1st hand not open and the pressure go up to over 250#. The dumbass homeowner still refused to let me do somthing about the thermal expansion after he watched the gauge himself. I made a note of the danger on his invoice and had him AND his wife sign it and sent a copy to the building department with signature required. It's a multi million dollar house and i'm not taking the hit when it floods from a water supply blowing out somwhere due to high ass pressure its getting somtimes. Another example of an educated idiot I've worked for.


Maybe you should have them watch the MythBusters Water Heater Video...
Give them a hint of what they are about 75-lbs. away from....


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Maybe you should have them watch the MythBusters Water Heater Video...
> Give them a hint of what they are about 75-lbs. away from....


 Pressure from thermal exspansion will not make them explode like the ones that over heat. But it would cause a flood by the tank rupturing or cause it to cake up with soot when the tank distorts,the tank bottom wil start to go from convex to concave. The tank can swell and make the pipes at the top point away from each other and also the outter jacket will split open. if you notice while your doing a thermal exspansion test if you release just alittle water the pressure drops back down really really fast.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I figure the T&P is supposed to open at 150, The max pressure they test to is 300 and in the mythbusters video launch occurred at 325-psi...:whistling2:

You are correct though the overheating and instant steam conversion when the pressure on the overheated water is released is what gives the spectacular results...


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Redwood said:


> I figure the T&P is supposed to open at 150, The max pressure they test to is 300 and in the mythbusters video launch occurred at 325-psi...:whistling2:
> 
> You are correct though the overheating and instant steam conversion when the pressure on the overheated water is released is what gives the spectacular results...


 I was surprised too,so surprised I used a second gauge. It went way up...infact it pegged my gauge out,so I really dont know how high it would go. I bet its already ruined the water heater by now or sombody has corrected the issue at that home. If you coulda seen what i wrote on his invoive you would have laughed:laughing: I used all the key words.....warning,property damage, severe personal injury,death,release me from liability,etc.......:laughing:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I cut out the area around the bottom element. I marked the outside where it was leaking and when it's flipped over the coating is not on the area leaking. The weld looks like something I could have done on that side, molten drops oozing on the inside. I don't have a camera that I can download a picture from, I will see about picking one up tomorrow, one of you pro's can tell what happened. Tank was clean as new on the inside.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

sounds like a crap tank.


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