# Navien power.



## Jay S. (Aug 9, 2011)

Hey all, Jay Sullivan from NJ/CT/NYC/waterheatinginfo.com 
I haven't been around in a few months, hope all is well. 
Been crazy busy. We literally installed a hundred water heaters since I was here last. Dozens of oil fired heaters, a couple dozen tankless, a few combi boilers, a few heat pump water heaters, conventional heaters, everything. 

To all you OLD SCHOOL guys that think tankless water heaters are a waste. Check out this commercial job we're finishing tomorrow. 










6 Navien NP-240's 










Yeah,










And before any of you Rats start nit picking everything, I took these pics 95% of the way done, (water on floor, venting not completed)










The 6- NP-240's total 1.2M BTU's & 4 120 gallon storage tanks replaced, 2 lochinvar boilers totaling 1.5M BTU's & 2, 200 gallon storage tanks. 









(old boilers removed)










Job took one week. Our client got 12K in energy tax credits. He's happier than you can imagine. We plan on doing this for many more commercial installations in the near future. This particular application is for a laundry mat in Mount Vernon New York.
Need more work? If you're in California or Long Island NY Call or email me. 800-524-4280 [email protected] 
We are getting a lot calls for water heater installations in these two areas and we simply can't preform the work. 
In short we have the business & we need you to do the work. 

Do not expect me to reply to any new posts for a while. Working on another quote for a new project in Manhattan NYC. 
Ps. If you personally, or know of a company that cleans or builds new oil tanks in NYC/ tri state area please email me right away. I need a quote ASAP 

Note: If anyone is interested in buying this type of equipment feel free to call the good people at Sure Combustion Heating Supply, 646-688-0711 [email protected] 

Now go to sleep, it's Sunday night and we all have work to do in the morning.


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## RealCraftsMan (Dec 27, 2011)

I wish I had they chance to do work like that...looks great!:thumbup:


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## Tim`s Plumbing (Jan 17, 2012)

Very nice install love the pro press and the Navien`s use them both all the time.


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## ibeplumber (Sep 20, 2011)

Awesome :thumbup: Thanks for posting this!


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

A couple constructive comments:

Balanced flow piping on the tanks but not on the Naviens, the first Navien in line gets highest flow rate.

Looks like a lot of pump there, do you exceed 4 GPM on a consistent basis through the tankless units? 5 GPM through the 1/2" internal waterways on a consistent basis will erode tankless piping and fittings quickly with the velocity exceeding 7fps. You cant take a tankless designed for open ended momentary flows, pretend they are boilers, close the system and expect them to last at their published 7-11 GPM rates, those are figured at 1-4 hour daily usages. 

Cold water looks to be introduced into tanks. That's a lot of BTU potential that will never be used. For example, if tanks were set at 140 with a 15 degree differential, tankless set at 150, the biggest rise would be 25 degree total rise. A tankless with 4 GPM at a 25 degree rise is fired at 50,000 BTU's. 

That's a lot of tank, pump and piping cost, why not use the appropriate amount of tankless that will full-fire and hit 90%+ efficiency? Since that looks like a 2" water line, 4 to 5 more tankless units and there is no need for tanks with 140 degree DHW.

Lastly, since the inlet water temps are elevated, no condensing will take place, thus those expensive high efficient tankless will be operating in the mid 80% range.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

That's some darn good work

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## Tim`s Plumbing (Jan 17, 2012)

*Navien*



ZL700 said:


> A couple constructive comments:
> 
> Balanced flow piping on the tanks but not on the Naviens, the first Navien in line gets highest flow rate.
> 
> ...


 
Navien has designed there units to be linked exactly the way that he has them piped.


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## bizzybeeplumbin (Jul 19, 2011)

Mr. Water heater is a franchise. I wonder if this is just an advertisement and they are looking to sell franchises in the area he said he was getting a lot of work in. California or Long Island must be up for sale.

Poor customer just got a Navian. Luckily he has so many to keep him going while they need to be fixed. 

Nice propress though.

Bet those are his franchisee's pictures. 

Something is fishy.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Tim`s Plumbing said:


> Navien has designed there units to be linked exactly the way that he has them piped.


Ummm no it's not 

Linked but not piped, read again. Anyone that understands the properties of tankless operation knows what I'm talking about


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

bizzybeeplumbin said:


> Mr. Water heater is a franchise. I wonder if this is just an advertisement and they are looking to sell franchises in the area he said he was getting a lot of work in. California or Long Island must be up for sale.
> 
> Poor customer just got a Navian. Luckily he has so many to keep him going while they need to be fixed.
> 
> ...


Where did you get mr water heater from? It's not mentioned, jay is a contractor in the NE with big Internet marketing hopes.

Bizzy, everyone in Cary still following what ever Cary plumbing does?


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## Tim`s Plumbing (Jan 17, 2012)

*I was wrong*



ZL700 said:


> Ummm no it's not
> 
> Linked but not piped, read again. Anyone that understands the properties of tankless operation knows what I'm talking about


You are right I should have read your post more carefully. As you stated they are linked properly but not piped properly.


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## Jay S. (Aug 9, 2011)

Little more info:
This laundry mat just had a flood over 3 feet of water in the basement a week before we got there. The business owner was basically demanding going the "thankless route" because he liked the idea of wall mounted heaters, even more because of the 12K tax credit. (2k per Navien) 

We didn't need that many units, 4 likely would have been enough, but we were going from 1.5M btu's down to 1.2M even with the 6, and the business owner wanted to More than enough during high demand times. They have a couple 125 pound washing machines that draw a ton of water at once and the owner wanted to be sure the Naviens could do the job. He's a president of some laundry mat association so we wanted to go big and get the pics in the magazine. 

-We have a return line with a pump pushing the return hot water mixing in the the cold supply, and we have all the storage tanks pre-heated as well. On our very 1st fire up all 4 storage tanks heated up in about 15 minutes and the system shut off, we were quite pleased. During the fire up/ 1st fill, all 6 units like the were full firing, as you would hear them roaring like any normal residential with 1 unit and a few fixtures running. After the system heated up none of the 6 units ever made this sound again. After the storage tanks were partly emptied and the naviens fired up you couldn't even hear them running because they are modulated to their lowest firing point, they are basally just maintaining the heat. The circulator pump made more noise than any of the naviens while running besides the 1st fire up. There is a steady dip of condensate exiting the system when there are running. Every storage tank, and every Navien has unions at every single entry and exit point on the hot, cold, & gas lines so every major component can be removed and replaced easily if and when necessary. 

In my opinion the gas savings will be very significant. The building owner told us the old heating system would basically run all day long. I'm not sure why this was, but they certainly were running for a few hours a day, maybe 6 hours a day, 12? idk. Now the navines turn on for about 30 seconds and turn off until needed again, i'm figuring the naviens will be working for 1-2 hour a day total, max. Do I know what the exact efficiency is with this system? No. Could it have been done even better if time & price was no objection? yes. We're going to insulate all the copper for more efficiency this week. 

All i know for sure is we went from a 1.5M system that ran all day to a 1.2M system that runs a few minutes2 per hour. We have accomplished our goals and when I find out about the exact gas savings in a few month I'll be sure to post the info. 

The flow rate per unit point is a good one. We have the units further away set at a higher temperature than the units closer to the exit point. They are not running as a master/ slave, we kept them all firing together and they all were running at the same time when called upon. It would have been nice to have each hot water line on each Navien on an individual branch but we didn't have much time to go too crazy. 

Material costs. Each navien cost a little over 1k, each storage tank is a little under 1k. 6 naviens, 4 storage tanks= 10k + another 5K in pro-press and L copper. The 3M filter was around 2k, add another 500 for mis parts i'm forgetting about. +500 to get the walls cleaned up. 18 total. 
The owner got a very good deal. With the 12K in tax rebates a really great deal. Not the best profit margins ever for us but we really wanted the job. I took about 100 pictures, and the pictures are going to led to a bunch of work in the future.


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## bizzybeeplumbin (Jul 19, 2011)

ZL700 said:


> Where did you get mr water heater from? It's not mentioned, jay is a contractor in the NE with big Internet marketing hopes.
> 
> Bizzy, everyone in Cary still following what ever Cary plumbing does?




I saw the Mr Water heater email and in my paranoid head thought it was an advert. :laughing:

That's awesome if its ligit. It just sounded weird. Congrats to the op for a great job!!

As for Cary Plumbing, they are one of my competitors, good company. :thumbsup:


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## Jay S. (Aug 9, 2011)

bizzybeeplumbin said:


> Mr. Water heater is a franchise. I wonder if this is just an advertisement and they are looking to sell franchises in the area he said he was getting a lot of work in. California or Long Island must be up for sale.
> 
> Poor customer just got a Navian. Luckily he has so many to keep him going while they need to be fixed.
> 
> ...


lol, I have NOTHING to do with Mr. water heaters llc of Pittsburgh PA. I know a decent amount about them because they actually tried to sue me in 2009 for having a owning a domain called Mr-waterheaters.com then again for my Twitter name. Their marketing director Mr. Young is a total *******. I wiped my ass with the law suit paper work while on a conference call with them and their lawyers. FYI, domain names & email address have NOTHING to do with trade mark infringement laws. The supreme court ruled on this, and I knew this. They didn't. I relutently made the changes just to stop being harassed by them.

I'm a 30 year old plumber (I use that term lightly)/ water heater installer wth over 3,000 installations under my belt. I have never roughed in a new construction home in my life, nor have I ever used a rooter machine. It's safe to say I know less than 90% of the people on these boards. You will only see me in the water heating section cause all I have ever done is water heating. I lost my job with a large water heater installation outfit in 2009 and starting building websites (with friends help) about my experience with water heaters. The success of the websites is based on Internet traffic and phone calls. The site gets over 13,000 visitors a month, and most days I get from 5-10 calls from water heater repairs or replacements to my 800#. These calls for water heaters (not in my area) has lead to partnerships with a bunch of plumbers, mostly on the East coast. I'm a plumber/ internet marketer. I own over 80 domain names/ almost all about water. Heating it, storing it, protecting it, conserving it. I'm in the process of building a nation wide water heater installation team. I send the work, you do the work, you send me 7.5% after your check clears. We have plumbers partners in the following areas.

A Plus Plumber, Orange CT (my company)
Sure Combustion Heating, NYC NY
Top choice plumbing, South Jersey
Platinum plumbing- Philly PA
Miller plumbing - Pittsburgh PA
MPM plumbing- Maryland 
Falcon plumbing- ATL
Katy plumbing- West Houston 
We also have New guys in the following areas. 
VA beach, 
San Jose CA, 
Bergen county NJ, 
2 new guys in Long Island, and a few other places, I can't remember everything. 
It's growing pretty fast. Best thing is, I don't go after anyone. If you Google something like- effective internet marketing for plumbers, my site is #2 or 3. They read the article and call me if they like they see. 

It's not a joke, not a scam, no catch. When people call or email me from your area i take the info on your behalf, then text you the information. You call back, sell job whatever, then you send me the 7.5% I'm asking for because your so damn happy you want to keep the work coming. I have no time to double check to make sure guys are paying me properly, it's all trust on my part, so I'm really looking for some smaller outfits, owner operator companies, great plumbers, guys that really know the trade well and take pride in their work. (This is why I'm here, I am here to meet you.) I'm not here bragging about how great I am, I didn't even install this Navien system, My buddy Johnnies company did. I just got the job from my website and sold it, then I helped out a little bit on the last day & took the pictures you see here. I don't want to get my hands dirty anymore and I don't really have too. Though I know a heck of a lot about plumbing and water heaters, my gift to the world is not plumbing, it's internet marketing. My area of knowedge is water heating products. When new clients call my 800# they are talking to someone that knows exactly what's going on, not an internet marketing company. I know it's kinda sounds strange but it's working really well for eveyone invloved so far.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Your comment about setting at different temps leads me to believe that they are not cascaded meaning the fans are not operating together and controlled. If thats the case that cant be common vented because the control system uses the fans to assure proper positive cat IV venting operation. 


Here is how they should be piped, this gives inlet coldest water during pump operation for higher fire rate, allowing reduction in units and tanks.


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## Jay S. (Aug 9, 2011)

I'm 95% sure the Navien NP-240's have some sort of check valve on their exhaust which eliminates any negative pressure issues or any change in venting pressure.

I believe the piping is exactly as it looks in that diagram.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Jay S. said:


> I'm 95% sure the Navien NP-240's have some sort of check valve on their exhaust which eliminates any negative pressure issues or any change in venting pressure.
> 
> I believe the piping is exactly as it looks in that diagram.


Ask Navien it has a check but you still can not do

Piping isnt even close


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## Jay S. (Aug 9, 2011)

ZL700 said:


> Ask Navien it has a check but you still can not do
> 
> Piping isnt even close


Why would you want the units to take in 'the coldest' water, when they can have pre heated warm water and not work as hard??


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Tell him Zl700

He needs some schooling

Sent from my portable office....yes I am at work


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Jay S. said:


> Why would you want the units to take in 'the coldest' water, when they can have pre heated warm water and not work as hard??


Thank you Old School I will soon


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Back from Lunch-

*“Why would you want the units to take in 'the coldest' water, when they can have pre heated warm water and not work as hard??”*

First Jay get out of your head that a tankless unit no matter who's brand or efficiency must never be confused as a boiler. It is not a low cost solution for a boiler as so many think. The application of storage with tankless 9X out of 10 is misunderstood and misapplied with tankless heaters. Tankless units are designed and sole purpose was to heat water as used, which is not the case for example in your install. In your case rarely will the dew point of combustion be reached due to inlet water temperature thus, the efficiency will never be there. I can only imagine you used Navien due to the venting advantage. While more efficient than other tankless choices due to heat exchanger mass, it’s barely over the 84% units als available.

Why do people use storage tanks with tankless units?

Wrong reasons:

1. Fail to understand they don’t get installed like indirect heating boilers with storage

Right reasons when installed correctly:

1. Space restrictions
2. Insufficient gas capacity to meet BTU/Flow requirements
3. Occasional high DHW demands with intermittent time to recover rather than get ridiculous with tankless required (Emergency shower would be one application) 

It’s a common known fact that in order to maintain steady output temp of a tankless water heater, they react to flow rate, and fire accordingly based on temperature rise required to hit desired output temperature. Boilers fire on/off and stay on as long as an upper limit is not reached. This allows with correct flow rates boilers to be considered as full fire BTU capability. 
Given that you are pumping the system, however without balanced piping, let’s assume the flow through the heaters is a constant 5 GPM, as long as their water adjustment valves are trying to close. With tank storage you must be activating the pump via set point minus differential. Again making assumptions lets use 140 degrees as the set point and a 20 degree differential, so pump on is 120 degrees
Storing water at 140, pump starts at 120, tankless let’s say they are commercial units (for warranty) allowing over 140 settings may be set at 150 so that tank temp set point may be reached. Using temp setting examples above, this is what happens:

5 GPM x 500 (8.34 weight of 1 gal water at 60 degree x 60 min/hour, BTUH) x 40 degree rise (tank temp 120, blended with cold water entering being heated to set point of 150) = 100,000 BTU firing rate. That’s ½ of Navien’s potential. There are only 2 ways to increase the firing rate remember? Its flow or temp rise. Since temp rise isn’t an option its flow, but flow can’t be increased because you’ve taken an open-ended flow tankless used for intermittent water heating and closed the system trying to create an indirect heating boiler system? 

Tankless have small passageways, piping elbows, heat exchangers, many times 1/2” I.D. while they be capable of flowing 7-11 GPM, these figures are based on 30-40 degree rise at periods of 1-4 hours per day, not 12-14 with a pump. Most manufactures settle on a max pumped GPM rate of 4. At 4 GPM the velocity is 6.528 ft/sec. Moving up to 5 GPM and the velocity is 8.16 ft/sec, far exceeding ASHRAE recommendations for velocity. While so many wish to blame the product, giving tankless a bad name, its excessive velocity causing the erosion of the waterways often caused by misapplied pumps or circulators, creating the premature failures.

As tank temps continue to drop, flow through tankless doesn’t change, the system will fall behind. This due to the tankless seeing a mixed water inlet temp which takes us back to the original question.
At what point is the minimum water temp allowed to laundry? Following the scenario above you couldn’t get away with this in a hotel or restaurant without customer complaints or health dept. shutting down kitchen due to inadequate water temps. 

Referring to the earlier drawing, as I spec many brands, this one being a Navien job, this is how it works:

If Navien’s see 50 degree inlet water set at 150, 5 GPM each:

5 x 500 x 100 = 250,000 BTU required, unit fired at 199,000. they at full fire, condensing mode, 98% published efficiency.
5 x your 6 units at 5 GPM is a 30 GPM flow, any fixture draw less than 30 GPM, it will be a lower rise requirement due to blended water from tanks. Only at 79.6 degree rise required will the firing rate of the Naviens drop below 199,000 BTUH at 5 GPM flow rate each. (199,000 / 500 / 5 = 79.6) 


If fixture draw exceeds 30 GPM, the units see full operation; the remaining cold water back feeds into tanks, meeting any draw rate above 30 GPM, only hindered by pipe and delivery method to fixtures or laundry in this case. 


That is how tankless is applied with tanks. But, Im not a fan, skip tanks unless there is an absolute need. The longentivity of the tankless, increased operating efficiency, minimal standby losses, reduced electricity usage and maintenance will recover the difference in upfront costs.


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## Tim`s Plumbing (Jan 17, 2012)

*Thank you*



ZL700 said:


> Back from Lunch-
> 
> *“Why would you want the units to take in 'the coldest' water, when they can have pre heated warm water and not work as hard??”*
> 
> ...


 Thank you for breaking it down for us. This shows us why it is not good to over size a tankless as well as under size.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> Back from Lunch-
> 
> *“Why would you want the units to take in 'the coldest' water, when they can have pre heated warm water and not work as hard??”*
> 
> ...


You took the words right out of my mouth .... a little more long winded however


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> You took the words right out of my mouth .... a little more long winded however


No doubt and it could have gotten longer if I was considering the thick headed.

I have spoken before plumbing, engineering and energy groups often on the subject.

Never ceases to amaze me the misnomers on the subject by many intelligent people.

I could sum that up in 1 sentence, tankless firing rate is based on flow rate, temp rise and operating efficiency to deliver GPM result.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> No doubt and it could have gotten longer if I was considering the thick headed.
> 
> I have spoken before plumbing, engineering and energy groups often on the subject.
> 
> ...


See you could have said that in one sentence :laughing:


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## Jay S. (Aug 9, 2011)

You guys are right, everything is wrong. What were we thinking! We're ripping everything out this afternoon and starting again from scratch with 2 large cast iron boilers on the floor. Then we'll get that unlimited/ lightning fast, high efficiency, flood protected system we were after. And you can send the guy the next $12,000 check instead of ConEd/ Lockheed Martin. :/

I don't think it's reasonable to imply that everything is fundamentally wrong with this installation. There is always more than one way to accomplish the goals our clients are after. Our clients goals on this particular job were strictly big rebates, and flood protection (as much as possible in both areas.) 

For the record we did not want to do a job this size in a 1 week and we had concerns about true efficiency, it's hard to know exactly what the efficiency is with this type of a system. We told the business owner this up front. Really in fact we wanted (tried to turn him) towards a couple large A.O Smith Cyclone water heaters in there and be done in 3 days, but the owner DID NOT want them because they did not qualify for the rebates even tho they are in the high mid-high 90's. He demanded the tankless route for the $2,000 rebate from ConEd/ Lockheed (per) tankless unit. 

Looking forward to posting the gas bill savings. I'm betting at least 30% savings minimum.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Jay S. said:


> You guys are right, everything is wrong. What were we thinking! We're ripping everything out this afternoon and starting again from scratch with 2 large cast iron boilers on the floor. Then we'll get that unlimited/ lightning fast, high efficiency, flood protected system we were after. And you can send the guy the next $12,000 check instead of ConEd/ Lockheed Martin. :/
> 
> I don't think it's reasonable to imply that everything is fundamentally wrong with this installation. There is always more than one way to accomplish the goals our clients are after. Our clients goals on this particular job were strictly big rebates, and flood protection (as much as possible in both areas.)
> 
> ...


With that mindset, had you gone with more tankless and no tanks his rebate would have been higher, install costs lower, energy savings higher, so explain your choices there?

http://www.rinnai.us/documentation/downloads/Hot_Water_Design_Manual_Rev_C.pdf

Well look at that page 22, Rinnai's design drawing literally matches one I posted, their ideas must be insuperior to your design application too.


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## Tim`s Plumbing (Jan 17, 2012)

*Hire an engineer*



Jay S. said:


> You guys are right, everything is wrong. What were we thinking! We're ripping everything out this afternoon and starting again from scratch with 2 large cast iron boilers on the floor. Then we'll get that unlimited/ lightning fast, high efficiency, flood protected system we were after. And you can send the guy the next $12,000 check instead of ConEd/ Lockheed Martin. :/
> 
> I don't think it's reasonable to imply that everything is fundamentally wrong with this installation. There is always more than one way to accomplish the goals our clients are after. Our clients goals on this particular job were strictly big rebates, and flood protection (as much as possible in both areas.)
> 
> ...


 
I would have told the owner hire an engineer to design the system this way if it does not meet his or her expectations you have the drawing to fall back on. If you pipe it according to the engineer`s spec`s. I`m sure if you had called Navien they would have sent out a rep to help you design it for the need`s of the facility


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