# So how long does copper last in FL?



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

You tell me.


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

15yrs or so huh?.. with exessive oil bas flux and m type non reamed tube..


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

As bad as your alls water is in florida, 


what is the rate of stomach cancers, Esophageal cancer in your area where this piping is eating itself from the inside out.


If water treatment is non-existent in your area, I can see this leading to health issues, health concerns, death.


My friend in Broward County can install copper piping and last as long as it does up here in Kentucky,


damn near indefinite without the need for replacement.


Does the water district down there have a vetted interest with plastic piping industries, allowing for people with once fine copper piping systems, then change the water chemistry to allow destruction of the water piping? 

I'm assuming this boils down to money, and what the water treatment facility in your area is refusing to address, and this is why you have a job.

Copper piping deterioration is always geographical, never widespread. Along with the fact that 80% of the homes and businesses in america are using copper water piping for water distribution.


When you replace to plastic, you are masking a problem, because that water quality is corrosive to just more than copper piping. Chrome finishes are one such example. 

This is why copper cannot be used for RO system discharge; PH levels are at a level that will eat that piping quickly. 

The state of Florida and their municipal water treatment facility has a lot to answer for regarding why they allowed a perfectly good piping material choice (copper) and allowed it in the homes of good tax paying floridians, only to allow water that sounds like battery acid flow through the piping and destroy it.

If there is any reason to walk away from a house in florida, that would be a good one for allowing such an incident to create itself without methodical steps made on behalf of the water treatment facility to at least correct it.

State of Florida Plumbing Division has a degree of accountability in this matter, why they approved the copper piping if they knowingly accepted the facts that the water would be detrimental to the piping and its use.

Furthermore, what type of plumbing division in florida sets up homeowners for the fall in such a manner? 

The hell with talking about the material itself, who's running the ship down there and who is getting paid off in this "big picture" ??


I'm calling out the State of Florida Plumbing Division to be held accountable for their actions along with the complete denial of observations regarding piping choices for what was either known beforehand or known along the way, or was discussed behind closed doors without letting the general public aware of such conditions that may or may not cause inoperable harm (cancer).

The State of Florida Plumbing Division must answer these questions, and why they misled the plumbers active in the state peforming these work duties using copper piping for potable water systems in conjunction with the inspectors that are allowing this piping choice, all the way down to the water treatment facilities that refuse to address this aggressive water condition.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

Dunbar, that was deep. You da man


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

well my house was built in 1969 and the copper is still good AFAIK

although i probably just put a hex on it now by saying that LOL

this is in clearwater florida on pinellas countywater


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Usually type, L. Very few failures from unreamed tube. Usually oil based flux or just plain contaminated water.



Plumbworker said:


> 15yrs or so huh?.. with exessive oil bas flux and m type non reamed tube..


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I have noticed the same thing. Old subdivisions with very few problems located right next to 10-20 year old homes that are bursting at the seams. Both of them are on the same water supply yet the 80s and 90s homes are falling apart while the 60s and 70s rarely have a leak. I say it's workmanship that is causing most of the failures. Sure, water quality has is part in the equation but by and large it's due to these hacks using a tablespoon of oil based/self cleaning flux on every joint.



Bayside500 said:


> well my house was built in 1969 and the copper is still good AFAIK
> 
> although i probably just put a hex on it now by saying that LOL
> 
> this is in clearwater florida on pinellas countywater


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## cbsron (Feb 15, 2010)

Type "L" or maybe even "K" $$$ is the issue. "L" un reamed and treated water should last over 30 yrs just make sure all hangers are isolated from piping. I personally would get away from copper there are to many other options out there these days.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Well, you asked for it. Ask and ye shall receive:



DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> As bad as your alls water is in florida,
> 
> 
> what is the rate of stomach cancers, Esophageal cancer in your area where this piping is eating itself from the inside out. *I simply love how you diagnose all of the problems in a location you nothing about. You know nothing about our water supply and in what municipalities we have what problems. *
> ...


Waiting for your no doubt technically accurate and insightful write up on the subject matter .


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

I always thought it was funny how the really older homes in Central Florida had copper that was just fine, but when you got into houses in the 80's the copper was leaking everywhere. I was a plumbing contractor in Orlando for several years, and always attributed the piping problems to the lightning, crappy workmanship during the housing boom and crappy pipe. Oh, and enough chlorine in the water to make your eyes burn sometimes!!

But, I ate good all summer doing so many repipes 

So, thanks State Plumbing Division!!


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## robwilliams (May 6, 2011)

With the value of copper going up, especially at the scrap yards, I would think copper will not last long at all. Someone will eventually steal it. I don't about Florida, but here in Maryland, our Company has had 16 calls the past month from people that have had their A/C units ripped apart, in their own yard, and the copper coils cut out.


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## timplmbr (Mar 16, 2011)

ITS THE LITTLE GREEN GREMLINS I TELL YA. BE WARNED THE WILL EAT YALLS COPPER PIPE NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:jester:


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Protech


There are a ton of reasons for the copper piping developing pinholes. From plumber error to the minerals in the water, add that to the vibration of the copper tubing installed in sand. We have a problem.

 I have seen plumbers here using their feet to unroll soft copper allowing for kinks in the line creating resistance, not reaming the cut copper piping. Excessive acid flux used and the majority of our pin-hole leaks and repairs are within 5 feet of a copper joint. Purely speculation from our experience that it is the flux.


During the boom years a lot of the copper tubing was foreign. I have pulled a ton of copper that was made in Mexico. I cannot prove my theory but I believe there are thin spots in that copper piping.


Our most recent water treatment plant uses the osmosis system and that area experienced tremendous epidemics of pin-hole leaks. One of the ways they have fixed the problem is to mix ro water with traditional treated water. One of my clients’s a husband and wife team are the scientists that test the water and they spoke to me about the condition. I did not understand half of what they were talking about.


When I moved to Florida in 1993 the first plumbing company I worked for was re-piping a house for the 3rd time. The house was on a whole house ro system and they did not realize that copper piping should not be used when the unit is not service properly. The owner trusted his employees with information. No questions were asked about the Osmosis system and the employees did not understand the system.

How long wil copper last who knows.


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

Copper failures vary in cause all over the state. In my area homes on RO with L copper fail in 5 - 7 years. Flux issues would be 2nd on the cause. Copper is just about non existant here.


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

I'm sticking to my "too much chlorine" theory.

When did the big wave of pinholes start?

Date? Anybody?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Still waiting on that write up Dunbar :whistling2:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Protech
> 
> 
> There are a ton of reasons for the copper piping developing pinholes. From plumber error to the minerals in the water, add that to the vibration of the copper tubing installed in sand. We have a problem.


 I came across a failure about this time last year that just blew my mind.

One of Western Washington's largest Plumbing/Mechanical contractors used wire hangers with a plastic coating, the kind generally used for gas piping, to hang copper tube in a high rise.

The natural movement of the tubing wore away the plastic coating and exposed the tubing to the steel and electrolysis set in within 5 years of installation.

We looked at the job but passed on taking it because of the sheer scope of the job.

The last I heard, the Plumbing contractor was negotiating with the Insurance company to go in and epoxy line all of the copper tube in the high rise.


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## rvaughnp (Nov 19, 2009)

We find most of our pin holes to be from heavy minerals in the water. 1/3 of our water comes from ground water well farms. 
I have taken pin holes out of a 10 year old pro press system before, in the wall 4'-5' up, no insulation. 
One of the potential issues here in west Texas is the code requires electricians to tie onto the domestic water system for ground. Our soil is mostly sand and cliche. I believe this feeds electolisys. Just my theory.


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## GPSPlumbing (Jun 16, 2011)

I agree with some of the others who have mentioned flux issues. I would also agree that poor quality pipe and water with high chlorine content can contribute to the issue. From my experience I tend to see pin hole leaks just a few inches from joints, in my opinion this is from too much flux which causes a ridge and in turn causes an eddy. think of rivers used for white water rafting or any river for that matter. that inconsistancey in the pipe changes the way the water flows and creates a weak spot in the pipe.. just my .02


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Nope. Flux does not cause erosion-corrosion. The flux does act as a catalyst in our water and eats deep pits into the pipe though.

See here: http://www.plumbingzone.com/f21/copper-damage-oil-based-flux-high-res-5658/



GPSPlumbing said:


> I agree with some of the others who have mentioned flux issues. I would also agree that poor quality pipe and water with high chlorine content can contribute to the issue. From my experience I tend to see pin hole leaks just a few inches from joints, in my opinion this is from too much flux which causes a ridge and in turn causes an eddy. think of rivers used for white water rafting or any river for that matter. that inconsistancey in the pipe changes the way the water flows and creates a weak spot in the pipe.. just my .02


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> I came across a failure about this time last year that just blew my mind.
> 
> One of Western Washington's largest Plumbing/Mechanical contractors used wire hangers with a plastic coating, the kind generally used for gas piping, to hang copper tube in a high rise.
> 
> ...








WS, you must be very happy that you passed on that job. Negotiating with the insurance company doesn't sound like a good thing...:no:


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But knowing Widder, (just from this forum) I bet he would have used the proper hangers.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

422 plumber said:


> But knowing Widder, (just from this forum) I bet he would have used the proper hangers.


 I stopped using wire hangers for CT altogether about 15 years ago -- Way too much movement.

I also stopped using copper clad Unistrut clamps at about the same time -- Not enough movement. Combine that with a faulty or failed expansion tank and you have a recipe for incremental movement due to thermal expansion that slowly rubs the CT against the Unistrut and wears holes in the CT. I do use the strut clamps with the rubber inserts, though.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> I came across a failure about this time last year that just blew my mind.
> 
> One of Western Washington's largest Plumbing/Mechanical contractors used wire hangers with a plastic coating, the kind generally used for gas piping, to hang copper tube in a high rise.
> 
> ...


 
I ran across a water system the cement heads placed rolled wire on top of the copper with no seperation or protection. The inspector missed that mistake. I was the 3rd plumber in to make a repair and the first to explain to the home owner why so many leaks and to expect more.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Richard Hilliard said:


> I ran across a water system the cement heads placed rolled wire on top of the copper with no seperation or protection. The inspector missed that mistake. I was the 3rd plumber in to make a repair and the first to explain to the home owner why so many leaks and to expect more.


that doesn't make any sense


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Protech said:


> that doesn't make any sense


 Sure it does.

Tie wire is made from steel.

I cleaned up a lot of hydronic messes back in the day before PEX was introduced.

Add a little lime from the concrete/gypcrete and steel from the tie wire and you have a ticking electrolysis bomb.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Ok, let me break it own then. 1st, why was the copper laid above ground where the cement monkeys could even get at it. 2nd, even if it was laid right on top of grade, there should have been heavy mil polyethylene sheeting laid down before they poured.



Richard Hilliard said:


> I ran across a water system the cement heads placed rolled wire on top of the copper with no seperation or protection. The inspector missed that mistake. I was the 3rd plumber in to make a repair and the first to explain to the home owner why so many leaks and to expect more.


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