# Leaking ZURN PEX.. Lets look into the future.



## sweetness09

Home two years old, homeowner noticed a drip in his mechanical room coming from this hot 3/4" pex run. This line was STRAIGHT, not kinked or stressed out. Water pressure -60 lbs. At first inspection looks like a leaking crimp ring. It was a slow drip. After cutting this fitting out, the tee broke off in hand. Ive read about the lawsuit but this is the first fitting we have seen like this! Scary to think about, the home could have flooded at any time! How many of you have seen this?


----------



## Plumberman

Havent run any Zurn pex, only Wirsbo. I have had cracked fitting on the Wirsbo Plastic fittings.


----------



## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

All I use is Vangaurd pex down here.


----------



## user823

I use Viega, fittings are bronze, not brass as show in your pictures. But... that one doesn't look like a total dezinc break down. There's been lot's of press about illegal brass fittings, all over ebay with no certification. Just a good example of why you should only use quality materials.


----------



## Green Country

3/5" ? Is that a typo?


----------



## Nevada Plumber

It was probably a typo. It looks to be a 3/4" x 3/4" x 1/2" tee.

A couple of years ago I was installing a water heater in a newer manufactured (mobile) home. After I finished and turned the water on, I heard water running under the home. I crawled under the house and found a tee in the cold water line had sheared off exactly like in your picture. The PEX piping said Tuff-PEX by Uponor on it, and was joined together using brass fittings with the Oetiker clamps on it. That's the only brass PEX fitting failure I have seen.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

*Threads like these, gunna make me independently wealthy*

Like being able to pull the handle at the slot machine and not have to get on the gambling boat to do it.


Yeeeeeeeeehaawwwwww!!!!!! :thumbsup: Giddy-up!


----------



## stillaround

Scary. I'll have to check again what we use. The only problem we've had is the drop ear 90 splitting one month later because a nipple was either tightened too tight or they used that thicker teflon tape without regard to amount. Florida has a 12 year liability for errors and omissions.


----------



## Ron

It is the velocity of the water flowing through the fitting, a plumber I work with went to a code update class for his CE hours, and has learned that at 80 psi or higher pressure is causing the failure if the fitting/s, this meaning if the pressure is at 80 a prv is needed, this is always the case is far as code in concerned, I guess water moves much faster though pex then though other material. Thats all the details I have about it.


----------



## Protech

I don't see how the pressure would cause it unless the system was at the edge of it's flow limits and the extra flow being pushed thru the fixtures put the flow over the design limits.


----------



## Protech

What part of fl are you at?



stillaround said:


> Scary. I'll have to check again what we use. The only problem we've had is the drop ear 90 splitting one month later because a nipple was either tightened too tight or they used that thicker teflon tape without regard to amount. Florida has a 12 year liability for errors and omissions.


----------



## SPH

Flow rates do change from pex to copper, PEX is 8fps and Copper is 4-5fps.

Before you can discount this manufacturer (although i must say i would never touch that brand) you would have to test the water at that location. Water hardness can dramatically affect the lifetime of those cheaper brass fittings. 

At the risk of offending SOME of the old school plumbers and Union guys, maybe even COPPER piping would have failed in this situation.. haha


----------



## sweetness09

The home was on well water, with no conditioning so I suppose that could be a problem like some of you mentioned.. But still.. 2 years old??


----------



## SPH

sweetness09 said:


> The home was on well water, with no conditioning so I suppose that could be a problem like some of you mentioned.. But still.. 2 years old??


BINGO! that would do it, and poorly made fittings.


----------



## Protech

You know what's wierd is, it looks like it's being leached from the OUTSIDE instead of the inside. The inside looks good but the outside apears to be sweating zinc.


----------



## ILPlumber

Protech said:


> You know what's wierd is, it looks like it's being leached from the OUTSIDE instead of the inside. The inside looks good but the outside apears to be sweating zinc.


I wondered that myself Protech. It looks like it just broke to me.


----------



## stillaround

Protech said:


> What part of fl are you at?


North Central--columbia,alachua,suwanee,hamilton,baker etc
callplumbingnow.com


----------



## Airgap

ILPlumber said:


> I wondered that myself Protech. It looks like it just broke to me.


 I agree, it looks like a clean break.


----------



## Kyle181

looks like acute crapafication of the brass fitting to me


----------



## jayson22

Is that a brass fitting? It's a little hard to tell with the color on the computer.


----------



## Kyle181

your right, it might be one of those new powder coated gold fittings


----------



## Redwood

Like problems with Zurn PEX is new news?
http://www.zurnclassaction.com/index.html










I just wonder why anyone would still be installing it...
I bet at least a few of you are!

I measured out a couple of these fittings just to see how thin they are...
The thinnest one I measured was .028" The thickest was .033"


----------



## Ron

Redwood said:


> Like problems with Zurn PEX is new news?
> http://www.zurnclassaction.com/index.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just wonder why anyone would still be installing it...
> I bet at least a few of you are!
> 
> I measured out a couple of these fittings just to see how thin they are...
> The thinnest one I measured was .028" The thickest was .033"



Yep I still install pex systems, that lawsuit was back in 2003, it is now 2009, I have seen no failures here, not one. :whistling2:


----------



## Redwood

I install PEX too....
But Zurn is not what I install....


----------



## Ron

I don't use q-pex fittings, I'm sure they fixed there problem with it, but I won't use them myself.


----------



## user823

Bronze is the way to go.


----------



## Camolia0

Thats weird, we never ran into problems yet. Mind you we use Vanguard here. The only problem I have with this product is that plastic fittings that we use. In the winer the are extremely easy to break. Haven't they been using Zurn in Europe for years?


----------



## bfriely

Has anyone else had problems with pex with the copper crimp ring not holding up to the 100lb air test? I keep getting very slow leaking on multiple tests


----------



## Protech

adjust your crimpers


----------



## Redwood

bfriely said:


> Has anyone else had problems with pex with the copper crimp ring not holding up to the 100lb air test? I keep getting very slow leaking on multiple tests


Are you using a Go/No-Go gauge to check your crimps?










You will probably find your crimper tool is out of adjustment.


----------



## Ron

Why are you testing at 100 psi?


----------



## Protech

I usually test at 120 to 130.


----------



## Ron

UPC only requires a 50 psi air test on water distro lines, that is why I asked. Did you know air acts different in pex.


----------



## Protech

how so?


----------



## Ron

Not sure but I was told this, it looses pressure not sure how or why but it does, I tested a house once and pressure did drop over time, checked if it was the gauge, it was not, thought there was a leak somewhere, after getting water on the system, no leaks were found, so I don't have a real answer for you. I maybe wrong about it.


----------



## Protech

I don't do a timed drop test with air. I pump it up and see if it holds for 5 min. Then I blow the charge and do a hydrostatic test. I just use the air to make sure that I didn't miss a crimp and flood an attic. Hydrostatic is better for finding tiny leaks in solder joint and casting defects in fittings once you know that the system is closed.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Nitrogen is the way to go...


Low amounts and the leaks will shriek loudly.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Ron The Plumber said:


> Why are you testing at 100 psi?


 

Code in Kentucky I believe, or the "maximum working pressure" .


----------



## Redwood

When air testing I use a ultrasonic leak detector...
It screams that there is a leak from 20-30 feet away and you have to turn down the sensitivity as you get closer to pin point it.


----------



## Protech

You guys walk every job with leak detectors?


----------



## Redwood

I have a hand held ultrasonic detector that I bought for a compressed air job years ago. If I'm air testing I use it to check for leaks. It doesn't take any time at all and like I said it will tell me if there is a leak from 20-30' away...

I located all the leaks in a 85,000 square foof plant in a couple of hours. I had 2 guys scrambling tagging all the air leaks as I was finding them...


----------



## Artisan

*Pex OK*

__WOW, this list seems to have some knowledgeable guys in it and I like the boot the DIY'ers are getting / the self policing of the list seems to keep them out. It SLAYS me that some plumbers will offer up DIY repair info on their website, WHY? So they will fix it them selves and not call a pro, or is it they want to show there skills? Ummm, well, another topic...:furious:

__I have not done an intro, I did place my web site Addy under my user name, suggesting a click tells much. I can tell you here I am a graduate of Southern California Pipe Trades Trainer Center, a union school, 5.5 years, graduated when I was about 21 years old and I am almost 51 now, and I wiped the floor w/ 90% of all others in all my classes. I can not remember how many times Journeymen would call the BA and complain about the "Apprentice" that was the boss on the job and each time I was just moved to a new place or the complainers were, w/ the latter usually happening. After 7 years vested I flipped the BA off when he sent out a new pipe handler and I was left on the bench, I was only on the bench twice since starting as a shop grunt at 15 years old. That was BS! I never looked back...

__Look up the July 2002 Issue of Reeves Journal Magazine for more info, I am on the cover and there is a small spread inside about Moi' as well. I am not the messiah of plumbing, no where near it, there is always another whom is better tis why I seek out lists like this. Another list I am on is the PIPDL a Yahoo Group that can be VERY entertaining at times, Sylvan Teiger from NY runs that ship. 

*CASE and POINT / Q's;*
__I have resisted PEX for years and of course it didn't help that California only recently approved it. I do believe, as w/ CSST (in certain conditions) that I wish to convert to PEX installs seeing it will probably last longer than our children's, children and then some when installed properly and I am sure, ( ? ) not exposed to UV light. 

__Just today I ran into ANOTHER copper pin hole leak in a home and I suggested a PEX repipe over copper for the above reasons. I am SO GLAD I saw the Zurn fitting issue. I would suggest the "thinness" has EVERYTHING to do with it with expansion and contraction being the culprit, it seems the jury is out on this, just an observation. I think I would settle w/ a 4-5 GPM flow rate over the 8 GPM rate and have thicker fittings than issues.

*PURPOSE FOR POST;*


__I have not done a PEX system yet. I am sure it will be easier yet not having done it I am sure there are a few tricks one would want to know prior. Herein I ask for some enlightenment as to your observations. I.E.

Looks like I won't be using Zurn, ehh?
What tools are best?
Plastic vs Bronze/Brass/Powder coated, what do YOU use?
Which manufacturer seems to have the BEST materials.
Pros and Cons
Tips and Tricks
What Co. has a good quality distribution block?
Strapping issues / Suggestions
Using PEX in the ground from the meter? Is it OK?
So what, use copper where the water service is exposed? (we are no freeze here) I would think solid brass, HA! $$$
I have a habit of doing installs square to the world, straight, level, plumb etc. Will I go bonkers? :wallbash:
Is it advisable to test above 80 PSI and yes, I would have automatically added a regulator if the pressure exceed 80psi.
__If it is considered I am high-jacking this thread please advise and I will delete and post anew elsewhere. :surrender:

__Any and all info would be much appreciated. :notworthy:

Regards,
Brad Davis
http://www.plumbers.cc


----------



## Airgap

Artisan said:


> __WOW, this list seems to have some knowledgeable guys in it and I like the boot the DIY'ers are getting / the self policing of the list seems to keep them out. It SLAYS me that some plumbers will offer up DIY repair info on their website, WHY? So they will fix it them selves and not call a pro, or is it they want to show there skills? Ummm, well, another topic...:furious:
> 
> __I have not done an intro, I did place my web site Addy under my user name, suggesting a click tells much. I can tell you here I am a graduate of Southern California Pipe Trades Trainer Center, a union school, 5.5 years, graduated when I was about 21 years old and I am almost 51 now, and I wiped the floor w/ 90% of all others in all my classes. I can not remember how many times Journeymen would call the BA and complain about the "Apprentice" that was the boss on the job and each time I was just moved to a new place or the complainers were, w/ the latter usually happening. After 7 years vested I flipped the BA off when he sent out a new pipe handler and I was left on the bench, I was only on the bench twice since starting as a shop grunt at 15 years old. That was BS! I never looked back...
> 
> __Look up the July 2002 Issue of Reeves Journal Magazine for more info, I am on the cover and there is a small spread inside about Moi' as well. I am not the messiah of plumbing, no where near it, there is always another whom is better tis why I seek out lists like this. Another list I am on is the PIPDL a Yahoo Group that can be VERY entertaining at times, Sylvan Teiger from NY runs that ship.
> 
> *CASE and POINT / Q's;*
> __I have resisted PEX for years and of course it didn't help that California only recently approved it. I do believe, as w/ CSST (in certain conditions) that I wish to convert to PEX installs seeing it will probably last longer than our children's, children and then some when installed properly and I am sure, ( ? ) not exposed to UV light.
> 
> __Just today I ran into ANOTHER copper pin hole leak in a home and I suggested a PEX repipe over copper for the above reasons. I am SO GLAD I saw the Zurn fitting issue. I would suggest the "thinness" has EVERYTHING to do with it with expansion and contraction being the culprit, it seems the jury is out on this, just an observation. I think I would settle w/ a 4-5 GPM flow rate over the 8 GPM rate and have thicker fittings than issues.
> 
> *PURPOSE FOR POST;*
> 
> 
> 
> __I have not done a PEX system yet. I am sure it will be easier yet not having done it I am sure there are a few tricks one would want to know prior. Herein I ask for some enlightenment as to your observations. I.E.
> 
> Looks like I won't be using Zurn, ehh?
> What tools are best?
> Plastic vs Bronze/Brass/Powder coated, what do YOU use?
> Which manufacturer seems to have the BEST materials.
> Pros and Cons
> Tips and Tricks
> What Co. has a good quality distribution block?
> Strapping issues / Suggestions
> Using PEX in the ground from the meter? Is it OK?
> So what, use copper where the water service is exposed? (we are no freeze here) I would think solid brass, HA! $$$
> I have a habit of doing installs square to the world, straight, level, plumb etc. Will I go bonkers? :wallbash:
> Is it advisable to test above 80 PSI and yes, I would have automatically added a regulator if the pressure exceed 80psi.
> __If it is considered I am high-jacking this thread please advise and I will delete and post anew elsewhere. :surrender:
> 
> __Any and all info would be much appreciated. :notworthy:
> 
> Regards,
> Brad Davis
> http://www.plumbers.cc


You just killed two birds with one stone.


----------



## Associated Plum

[quote=Artisan;37671 Another list I am on is the PIPDL a Yahoo Group that can be VERY entertaining at times, Sylvan Teiger from NY runs that ship. 


Brad,

Are you trying to stir the pot again?


----------



## Artisan

Associated Plum said:


> Artisan;37671 Another list I am on is the PIPDL a Yahoo Group that can be VERY entertaining at times said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah HA! A familiar face! Nope, no pot stirring, you know me, if I were stirring the pot, 2 guys would have committed suicide by now, simply out of sheer fear of what I might do next and the rest would be quietly sending me *$, Monthly *:whistling2:
Click to expand...


----------



## TheMaster

Ron The Plumber said:


> UPC only requires a 50 psi air test on water distro lines, that is why I asked. Did you know air acts different in pex.


 They make us test to 200psi on pex systems here. For a repair theres no test but for new houses,repipes and bathroom additions we test to 200 psi hydrostatic test


----------



## trout lake

As my old pa use to say, "there's no conciet in my family, I've got it all"!!


----------



## tooslow

*pex*

Read through the pex problem with fitting failure after a two year install, If there was issues with water quality does any manufacturer make stainless fittings, seems a logical solution.


----------



## Protech

There were talks of Flowguard making a stainless pex system at the 2008 Orlando builder's show

search for: "FlowGuard Flex"


----------



## user823

Protech said:


> There were talks of Flowguard making a stainless pex system at the 2008 Orlando builder's show
> 
> search for: "FlowGuard Flex"



Uponor already makes SS transition fittings used mostly for RO Systems.


----------



## Protech

Here is a pic of a 1/2" Zurn fitting that was installed about 10 years ago in bell isle FL in a million dollar home. It was cut out last year during an addition. You'll see that after 10 years you can just start to see some surface de-zincification. I put the scratches in there just so you can see how thin the de-alloyed layer is.


----------



## Protech

Same fitting, now with pex cut off of it.


----------



## trout lake

I like your posts....
The name protech is fitting (excuse the pun )
trout


----------



## schultzie

So in one house i had two pex leaks.... 

number 1

i had a late night call the home owner INSISTED on haveing there outside hosebib for the weekend

Friday night...only thing open was a CANADIAN TIRE (from ontario canada)
So the only Stop and waste i could find was a 1/2" gate valve with each end threaded ( as in two FIPS) 

I also bought 2 1/2" MIPS adaptors for the gate valve to simply adapt to pex....

I did all the work crimped my rings etc etc etc....
small leak...coming from what i thought was the thread...took it all apart...MASTER metallic dope and pink tee tape.....still leaked like a seive....

took all apart the pex adaptor wasnt a perfect circle...( not oval not sqaure just a slight a very slight off circle) and thats what made it leak.... 

I also in the same house had to rough in for a laundry room in the 3rd floor...

I ran pex up.....had to leave for the day so my boss sent a apprentice to finish the job...(simply snap on a couple pex 90's and a couple ball valves)

i came back turned on the water No leaks no problems

Thanks pay me

7 months go by and theres a leak in the ceiling....i trace it all back.. the apprentice didnt crimp the ring on a perfect straight angle....just a little to the side...LEAKED...

after 7 months???
freaks me out...
im now doing a house in 3/4 copper with a full mainfold system and couldnt be happier...solder solder solder.,....i just got my red seal license and was all for PEX for the last 5 years....i've lost my confidence...


----------



## rickmccarthy

I dont understand all of this crimping. About 10 yrs ago I was installing a brand called KITEC and that had crimp fittings they also had compression the compression were a problem because of there makeup..... I now only install uponor wiresbo pex with the expanding rings. I look at it like this once you assemble your fitting that fitting has memory and will attempt to restore itself to its natural form. Therfore when you expand the ring it spends the rest of its life contracting. However when you crimp something just the opposite.....This isnt proven simply my theory
Rick


----------



## Protech

I suppose you've never had a defective copper fitting or a helper cold solder a joint before:whistling2:



schultzie said:


> So in one house i had two pex leaks....
> 
> number 1
> 
> i had a late night call the home owner INSISTED on haveing there outside hosebib for the weekend
> 
> Friday night...only thing open was a CANADIAN TIRE (from ontario canada)
> So the only Stop and waste i could find was a 1/2" gate valve with each end threaded ( as in two FIPS)
> 
> I also bought 2 1/2" MIPS adaptors for the gate valve to simply adapt to pex....
> 
> I did all the work crimped my rings etc etc etc....
> small leak...coming from what i thought was the thread...took it all apart...MASTER metallic dope and pink tee tape.....still leaked like a seive....
> 
> took all apart the pex adaptor wasnt a perfect circle...( not oval not sqaure just a slight a very slight off circle) and thats what made it leak....
> 
> I also in the same house had to rough in for a laundry room in the 3rd floor...
> 
> I ran pex up.....had to leave for the day so my boss sent a apprentice to finish the job...(simply snap on a couple pex 90's and a couple ball valves)
> 
> i came back turned on the water No leaks no problems
> 
> Thanks pay me
> 
> 7 months go by and theres a leak in the ceiling....i trace it all back.. the apprentice didnt crimp the ring on a perfect straight angle....just a little to the side...LEAKED...
> 
> after 7 months???
> freaks me out...
> im now doing a house in 3/4 copper with a full mainfold system and couldnt be happier...solder solder solder.,....i just got my red seal license and was all for PEX for the last 5 years....i've lost my confidence...


----------



## TheMaster

schultzie said:


> So in one house i had two pex leaks....
> 
> number 1
> 
> i had a late night call the home owner INSISTED on haveing there outside hosebib for the weekend
> 
> Friday night...only thing open was a CANADIAN TIRE (from ontario canada)
> So the only Stop and waste i could find was a 1/2" gate valve with each end threaded ( as in two FIPS)
> 
> I also bought 2 1/2" MIPS adaptors for the gate valve to simply adapt to pex....
> 
> I did all the work crimped my rings etc etc etc....
> small leak...coming from what i thought was the thread...took it all apart...MASTER metallic dope and pink tee tape.....still leaked like a seive....
> 
> took all apart the pex adaptor wasnt a perfect circle...( not oval not sqaure just a slight a very slight off circle) and thats what made it leak....
> 
> I also in the same house had to rough in for a laundry room in the 3rd floor...
> 
> I ran pex up.....had to leave for the day so my boss sent a apprentice to finish the job...(simply snap on a couple pex 90's and a couple ball valves)
> 
> i came back turned on the water No leaks no problems
> 
> Thanks pay me
> 
> 7 months go by and theres a leak in the ceiling....i trace it all back.. the apprentice didnt crimp the ring on a perfect straight angle....just a little to the side...LEAKED...
> 
> after 7 months???
> freaks me out...
> im now doing a house in 3/4 copper with a full mainfold system and couldnt be happier...solder solder solder.,....i just got my red seal license and was all for PEX for the last 5 years....i've lost my confidence...


 Sounds like one of your fittings got bent...are they kept in bins or just loose in the truck? Do you have a hydrostatic test pump so you can test your systems when your done? I find bad solder joints all the time while installing water heater's. My point is the reasons you state for not liking pex is not a valid arguement. Bent fittings do leak and improper crimps can leak. Its up to the mechanic to install it proper with undamaged fittings.


----------



## nhmaster3015

*pex Sucks!*


----------



## trout lake

nhmaster3015 said:


> *pex Sucks!*


Why does pex suck. Isn't the install as good as the guy installing?


----------



## rickmccarthy

Why because its clean ir because it doesnt freeze and bust or because it reduces the amount of fittings you need eliminating possibilities for a leak. 

The hardest thing for me to get used to when I started using pex in new con was that it didnt look like copper not nice and straight and plumb. For me that was the biggest thing to get over because I am a stickler for neat pipe

It can be done with pex but it takes some work. But once you get used to it pex is great. I truly believe It is one of the greatest advancements in our trade. I am talking about Uponor wirsbo pex heck they stand behind it with a 25yr warranty.

I should clarify the freeze and bust comment If the water freezes the pipe will expand to 3 times its size before it ruptures. amazing expansion capabilities. Now I am unsure about the plastic fittings that may be a whole other story.

Do some research and give it a chance I think it may change your mind.
If not so be it copper is great too I belive pex is a superior pipe though. 

I would rather have it in my house and be drinking out of it in 15 yrs.


----------



## para1

Artisan said:


> __WOW, this list seems to have some knowledgeable guys in it and I like the boot the DIY'ers are getting / the self policing of the list seems to keep them out. It SLAYS me that some plumbers will offer up DIY repair info on their website, WHY? So they will fix it them selves and not call a pro, or is it they want to show there skills? Ummm, well, another topic...:furious:
> 
> __I have not done an intro, I did place my web site Addy under my user name, suggesting a click tells much. I can tell you here I am a graduate of Southern California Pipe Trades Trainer Center, a union school, 5.5 years, graduated when I was about 21 years old and I am almost 51 now, and I wiped the floor w/ 90% of all others in all my classes. I can not remember how many times Journeymen would call the BA and complain about the "Apprentice" that was the boss on the job and each time I was just moved to a new place or the complainers were, w/ the latter usually happening. After 7 years vested I flipped the BA off when he sent out a new pipe handler and I was left on the bench, I was only on the bench twice since starting as a shop grunt at 15 years old. That was BS! I never looked back...
> 
> __Look up the July 2002 Issue of Reeves Journal Magazine for more info, I am on the cover and there is a small spread inside about Moi' as well. I am not the messiah of plumbing, no where near it, there is always another whom is better tis why I seek out lists like this. Another list I am on is the PIPDL a Yahoo Group that can be VERY entertaining at times, Sylvan Teiger from NY runs that ship.
> 
> *CASE and POINT / Q's;*
> __I have resisted PEX for years and of course it didn't help that California only recently approved it. I do believe, as w/ CSST (in certain conditions) that I wish to convert to PEX installs seeing it will probably last longer than our children's, children and then some when installed properly and I am sure, ( ? ) not exposed to UV light.
> 
> __Just today I ran into ANOTHER copper pin hole leak in a home and I suggested a PEX repipe over copper for the above reasons. I am SO GLAD I saw the Zurn fitting issue. I would suggest the "thinness" has EVERYTHING to do with it with expansion and contraction being the culprit, it seems the jury is out on this, just an observation. I think I would settle w/ a 4-5 GPM flow rate over the 8 GPM rate and have thicker fittings than issues.
> 
> *PURPOSE FOR POST;*
> 
> 
> 
> __I have not done a PEX system yet. I am sure it will be easier yet not having done it I am sure there are a few tricks one would want to know prior. Herein I ask for some enlightenment as to your observations. I.E.
> 
> Looks like I won't be using Zurn, ehh?
> What tools are best?
> Plastic vs Bronze/Brass/Powder coated, what do YOU use?
> Which manufacturer seems to have the BEST materials.
> Pros and Cons
> Tips and Tricks
> What Co. has a good quality distribution block?
> Strapping issues / Suggestions
> Using PEX in the ground from the meter? Is it OK?
> So what, use copper where the water service is exposed? (we are no freeze here) I would think solid brass, HA! $$$
> I have a habit of doing installs square to the world, straight, level, plumb etc. Will I go bonkers? :wallbash:
> Is it advisable to test above 80 PSI and yes, I would have automatically added a regulator if the pressure exceed 80psi.
> __If it is considered I am high-jacking this thread please advise and I will delete and post anew elsewhere. :surrender:
> 
> __Any and all info would be much appreciated. :notworthy:
> 
> Regards,
> Brad Davis
> http://www.plumbers.cc


 
Yes, you will go bonkers at first. It goes against all your professional instincts.:blink:


----------



## rickmccarthy

Uponor wirsbo the best use the expansion rings theyhave a hand tool or you can spring for a battery operated expander pex in slab ablolutely sleeve it (here at least) test it at 100 psi your fine staight plumb level youll lose your friggan mind but you can get it pretty good if you work with it use the bend supports it is much faster but you wont save much time at first because you will spend so much time trying to make it look like copper. You wont close maybe take advantage of the quality of the material the speed of the install and go fishing


----------



## Wai Corp

This is an example of the ambulance chasing lawyer hype that is being circulated about Zurn PEX. From the external oxidation and deposits in the photo, one can see that this fitting was leaking at the cinch clamp and not due to through-wall corrosion of the fitting itself - the latter of which is the alleged Zurn issue. In this photo, one can also see that the installer DID NOT use Zurn stainless steel cinch rings but rather used VANGUARD cinch rings on Zurn Pex tubing. So this is NOT a Zurn failure. Moreover, it is not a Vanguard cinch failure either because you can see that the cinch ring was not properly (fully) squeezed together. It could not have passed a go-no go check. In short, the PEX installer screwed up not Zurn and not Vanguard. Its just a sloppy amateur connection. Moreover, since both cinch rings are defectively installed, one can only wonder how much of the other pex in the home is in similar condition. Amateurs CAN install pex simply and easily. But you have to read the one page of instruction that comes with the PEX cinch tool and use the go no-go gage. If you can't read, then leave the job to professionals.


----------



## Wai Corp

Para1 - Would you put horseshoes on your car? Then, why put old fashioned corrosive copper pipe back in your home? Time to step into the 21st century, save time, do it better, faster, and cheaper with PEX. Q. Why does anyone still plumb in copper? Ans. - Because it takes so much time to cut & sweat the fittings together and time is money $$$$. Also why put in a maintenance free PEX system when you can install copper and have your customers coming back for repairs a few years later? 

>>Looks like I won't be using Zurn, ehh? << NOTHING wrong with Zurn but stick with their newer poly fittings. If you want the ease of brass PEX fittings that can be found off the shelf at Lowe's, rather than special ordering poly fittings from your plumbing supply store, then go with Vanguard. They are thicker than Zurn's brass fittings and more durable. The Vanguard fittings also can be installed with either crimp or cinch clamps rings and the install tools are more universal. Zurn's poly fittings need the Zurn cinch ring. You can't use a crimp ring with them. 

>>What tools are best? << Use Zurn stainless cinch rings and the Zurn cinch ring tool on Zurn poly fittings not a crimp ring or another vendor's cinch rings. If you go with brass fittings, you can use pretty much any crimp ring tool and manufacturer, but I prefer the Kobalt multi-size crimp ring tool and the Vanguard black copper crimp rings. Wisbro also makes a great compression ring system that uses their proprietary tool, proprietary rings, and PEX tubing. Nice but your supply options are limited. 

>>Plastic vs Bronze/Brass/Powder coated, what do YOU use? < Vanguard OR ZURN Poly FITTINGS are best in my view. But Vanguard brass fittings are also ok. The brass fittings have more options. 

>Which manufacturer seems to have the BEST materials. 

>Pros and Cons - What's not to like about PEX? Store new, unused pex in the dark next to your vampire. That's all. 
>Tips and Tricks< When doing a major remodel or renovation, seriously consider the home-run style layout option rather than using a tree-branch scheme to replace the copper. With PEX, you can run the pipe anywhere you like and do not have to follow the old contorted copper runs and cramped access to fittings. Aim to minimize the number of connections and branches within the walls. Ideally, have none (i.e., one connection at the fixture and one connection at the supply manifold. Keep in mind that drywall is cheap. 

>What Co. has a good quality distribution block? I like Manabloc or Zurn manifolds made from poly not copper. 

>Strapping issues / Suggestions - Don't ever consider using metal.

>Using PEX in the ground from the meter? Is it OK? The manufacturers all say yes, but you have to make sure the pipe bed is OK and that the pipe can move somewhat. Pex thermally expands and contracts much more so than metal or PVC. Also, PEX is pretty durable but read the instructions and watch out for PEX installations with chlorine (water softeners). 
>So what, use copper where the water service is exposed? (we are no freeze here) I would think solid brass, HA! $$$ I'd use use heavy gauge copper or CPVC
. 
>I have a habit of doing installs square to the world, straight, level, plumb etc. Will I go bonkers? It helps to have a couple Jack Daniels before you start running the PEX. The drywall also helps. 

>>Is it advisable to test above 80 PSI and yes, I would have automatically added a regulator if the pressure exceed 80psi. -you mean a relief valve?


----------



## Plumber Jim

Wai Corp said:


> Para1 - Would you put horseshoes on your car? Then, why put old fashioned corrosive copper pipe back in your home? Time to step into the 21st century, save time, do it better, faster, and cheaper with PEX. Q. Why does anyone still plumb in copper? Ans. - Because it takes so much time to cut & sweat the fittings together and time is money $$$$. Also why put in a maintenance free PEX system when you can install copper and have your customers coming back for repairs a few years later?
> 
> >>Looks like I won't be using Zurn, ehh? << NOTHING wrong with Zurn but stick with their newer poly fittings. If you want the ease of brass PEX fittings that can be found off the shelf at Lowe's, rather than special ordering poly fittings from your plumbing supply store, then go with Vanguard. They are thicker than Zurn's brass fittings and more durable. The Vanguard fittings also can be installed with either crimp or cinch clamps rings and the install tools are more universal. Zurn's poly fittings need the Zurn cinch ring. You can't use a crimp ring with them.
> 
> >>What tools are best? << Use Zurn stainless cinch rings and the Zurn cinch ring tool on Zurn poly fittings not a crimp ring or another vendor's cinch rings. If you go with brass fittings, you can use pretty much any crimp ring tool and manufacturer, but I prefer the Kobalt multi-size crimp ring tool and the Vanguard black copper crimp rings. Wisbro also makes a great compression ring system that uses their proprietary tool, proprietary rings, and PEX tubing. Nice but your supply options are limited.
> 
> >>Plastic vs Bronze/Brass/Powder coated, what do YOU use? < Vanguard OR ZURN Poly FITTINGS are best in my view. But Vanguard brass fittings are also ok. The brass fittings have more options.
> 
> >Which manufacturer seems to have the BEST materials.
> 
> >Pros and Cons - What's not to like about PEX? Store new, unused pex in the dark next to your vampire. That's all.
> >Tips and Tricks< When doing a major remodel or renovation, seriously consider the home-run style layout option rather than using a tree-branch scheme to replace the copper. With PEX, you can run the pipe anywhere you like and do not have to follow the old contorted copper runs and cramped access to fittings. Aim to minimize the number of connections and branches within the walls. Ideally, have none (i.e., one connection at the fixture and one connection at the supply manifold. Keep in mind that drywall is cheap.
> 
> >What Co. has a good quality distribution block? I like Manabloc or Zurn manifolds made from poly not copper.
> 
> >Strapping issues / Suggestions - Don't ever consider using metal.
> 
> >Using PEX in the ground from the meter? Is it OK? The manufacturers all say yes, but you have to make sure the pipe bed is OK and that the pipe can move somewhat. Pex thermally expands and contracts much more so than metal or PVC. Also, PEX is pretty durable but read the instructions and watch out for PEX installations with chlorine (water softeners).
> >So what, use copper where the water service is exposed? (we are no freeze here) I would think solid brass, HA! $$$ I'd use use heavy gauge copper or CPVC
> .
> >I have a habit of doing installs square to the world, straight, level, plumb etc. Will I go bonkers? It helps to have a couple Jack Daniels before you start running the PEX. The drywall also helps.
> 
> >>Is it advisable to test above 80 PSI and yes, I would have automatically added a regulator if the pressure exceed 80psi. -you mean a relief valve?


 
My zurn rep says you can use the copper rings with the plastic zurn fittings.

Now i don't use zurn but my brother is.


----------



## Protech

I looked into this issue and found the cause of the failure to be stress-corrosion cracking. It was caused by a bad batch of fittings that Zurn put out. Essentially a dull bit was used on the fittings during manufacturing that caused micro cracks to form in the metals crystalline structure. When exposed to water the cracks quickly corrode and cause the fitting to suddenly shear off.



sweetness09 said:


> Home two years old, homeowner noticed a drip in his mechanical room coming from this hot 3/4" pex run. This line was STRAIGHT, not kinked or stressed out. Water pressure -60 lbs. At first inspection looks like a leaking crimp ring. It was a slow drip. After cutting this fitting out, the tee broke off in hand. Ive read about the lawsuit but this is the first fitting we have seen like this! Scary to think about, the home could have flooded at any time! How many of you have seen this?


----------



## RealLivePlumber

Wai Corp said:


> Para1 - Would you put horseshoes on your car? Then, why put old fashioned corrosive copper pipe back in your home? Time to step into the 21st century, save time, do it better, faster, and cheaper with PEX. Q. Why does anyone still plumb in copper? Ans. - Because it takes so much time to cut & sweat the fittings together and time is money $$$$. Also why put in a maintenance free PEX system when you can install copper and have your customers coming back for repairs a few years later?
> 
> >>Looks like I won't be using Zurn, ehh? << NOTHING wrong with Zurn but stick with their newer poly fittings. If you want the ease of brass PEX fittings that can be found off the shelf at Lowe's, rather than special ordering poly fittings from your plumbing supply store, then go with Vanguard. They are thicker than Zurn's brass fittings and more durable. The Vanguard fittings also can be installed with either crimp or cinch clamps rings and the install tools are more universal. Zurn's poly fittings need the Zurn cinch ring. You can't use a crimp ring with them.
> 
> >>What tools are best? << Use Zurn stainless cinch rings and the Zurn cinch ring tool on Zurn poly fittings not a crimp ring or another vendor's cinch rings. If you go with brass fittings, you can use pretty much any crimp ring tool and manufacturer, but I prefer the Kobalt multi-size crimp ring tool and the Vanguard black copper crimp rings. Wisbro also makes a great compression ring system that uses their proprietary tool, proprietary rings, and PEX tubing. Nice but your supply options are limited.
> 
> >>Plastic vs Bronze/Brass/Powder coated, what do YOU use? < Vanguard OR ZURN Poly FITTINGS are best in my view. But Vanguard brass fittings are also ok. The brass fittings have more options.
> 
> >Which manufacturer seems to have the BEST materials.
> 
> >Pros and Cons - What's not to like about PEX? Store new, unused pex in the dark next to your vampire. That's all.
> >Tips and Tricks< When doing a major remodel or renovation, seriously consider the home-run style layout option rather than using a tree-branch scheme to replace the copper. With PEX, you can run the pipe anywhere you like and do not have to follow the old contorted copper runs and cramped access to fittings. Aim to minimize the number of connections and branches within the walls. Ideally, have none (i.e., one connection at the fixture and one connection at the supply manifold. Keep in mind that drywall is cheap.
> 
> >What Co. has a good quality distribution block? I like Manabloc or Zurn manifolds made from poly not copper.
> 
> >Strapping issues / Suggestions - Don't ever consider using metal.
> 
> >Using PEX in the ground from the meter? Is it OK? The manufacturers all say yes, but you have to make sure the pipe bed is OK and that the pipe can move somewhat. Pex thermally expands and contracts much more so than metal or PVC. Also, PEX is pretty durable but read the instructions and watch out for PEX installations with chlorine (water softeners).
> >So what, use copper where the water service is exposed? (we are no freeze here) I would think solid brass, HA! $$$ I'd use use heavy gauge copper or CPVC
> .
> >I have a habit of doing installs square to the world, straight, level, plumb etc. Will I go bonkers? It helps to have a couple Jack Daniels before you start running the PEX. The drywall also helps.
> 
> >>Is it advisable to test above 80 PSI and yes, I would have automatically added a regulator if the pressure exceed 80psi. -you mean a relief valve?


 I believe an introduction is in order?


----------



## ILPlumber

Wai Corp said:


> Para1 - Would you put horseshoes on your car? Then, why put old fashioned corrosive copper pipe back in your home? Time to step into the 21st century, save time, do it better, faster, and cheaper with PEX. Q. Why does anyone still plumb in copper? Ans. - Because it takes so much time to cut & sweat the fittings together and time is money $$$$. Also why put in a maintenance free PEX system when you can install copper and have your customers coming back for repairs a few years later?
> 
> >>Looks like I won't be using Zurn, ehh? << NOTHING wrong with Zurn but stick with their newer poly fittings. If you want the ease of brass PEX fittings that can be found off the shelf at Lowe's, rather than special ordering poly fittings from your plumbing supply store, then go with Vanguard. They are thicker than Zurn's brass fittings and more durable. The Vanguard fittings also can be installed with either crimp or cinch clamps rings and the install tools are more universal. Zurn's poly fittings need the Zurn cinch ring. You can't use a crimp ring with them.
> 
> >>What tools are best? << Use Zurn stainless cinch rings and the Zurn cinch ring tool on Zurn poly fittings not a crimp ring or another vendor's cinch rings. If you go with brass fittings, you can use pretty much any crimp ring tool and manufacturer, but I prefer the Kobalt multi-size crimp ring tool and the Vanguard black copper crimp rings. Wisbro also makes a great compression ring system that uses their proprietary tool, proprietary rings, and PEX tubing. Nice but your supply options are limited.
> 
> >>Plastic vs Bronze/Brass/Powder coated, what do YOU use? < Vanguard OR ZURN Poly FITTINGS are best in my view. But Vanguard brass fittings are also ok. The brass fittings have more options.
> 
> >Which manufacturer seems to have the BEST materials.
> 
> >Pros and Cons - What's not to like about PEX? Store new, unused pex in the dark next to your vampire. That's all.
> >Tips and Tricks< When doing a major remodel or renovation, seriously consider the home-run style layout option rather than using a tree-branch scheme to replace the copper. With PEX, you can run the pipe anywhere you like and do not have to follow the old contorted copper runs and cramped access to fittings. Aim to minimize the number of connections and branches within the walls. Ideally, have none (i.e., one connection at the fixture and one connection at the supply manifold. Keep in mind that drywall is cheap.
> 
> >What Co. has a good quality distribution block? I like Manabloc or Zurn manifolds made from poly not copper.
> 
> >Strapping issues / Suggestions - Don't ever consider using metal.
> 
> >Using PEX in the ground from the meter? Is it OK? The manufacturers all say yes, but you have to make sure the pipe bed is OK and that the pipe can move somewhat. Pex thermally expands and contracts much more so than metal or PVC. Also, PEX is pretty durable but read the instructions and watch out for PEX installations with chlorine (water softeners).
> >So what, use copper where the water service is exposed? (we are no freeze here) I would think solid brass, HA! $$$ I'd use use heavy gauge copper or CPVC
> .
> >I have a habit of doing installs square to the world, straight, level, plumb etc. Will I go bonkers? It helps to have a couple Jack Daniels before you start running the PEX. The drywall also helps.
> 
> >>Is it advisable to test above 80 PSI and yes, I would have automatically added a regulator if the pressure exceed 80psi. -you mean a relief valve?


Somebody read this and le me know if it needs moderated. I have too short of an attention span to get through it.


----------



## ToUtahNow

ILPlumber said:


> Somebody read this and le me know if it needs moderated. I have too short of an attention span to get through it.


I believe your current signature says it all.

Mark


----------



## Ron

ILPlumber said:


> Somebody read this and le me know if it needs moderated. I have too short of an attention span to get through it.


I think we need intro, without it just ignore him.


----------



## Bill

Not sure what to make of it ILP!

I cant keep it together on that post either!


----------



## SewerRatz

The way it sounds he has stock in the stuff, and is pissed off that the sales went down. I just thank the plumbing gods that that stuff is not allowed in most of the areas I work in.


----------



## Tankless

There is NOTHING wrong with that crimp connection. I personally use the Zurn SS crimp rings and even those crimps look very much like the ones posted. To say they were not crimpped correctly is rediculas and they didn't leak....soooo?

I think bad brass caused all those issues, I use the same fittings shown and have NEVER had one issue other than my own errors in not crimping them square. Gotta love these reps


----------



## SewerRatz

Tankless said:


> There is NOTHING wrong with that crimp connection. I personally use the Zurn SS crimp rings and even those crimps look very much like the ones posted. To say they were not crimpped correctly is rediculas and they didn't leak....soooo?
> 
> I think bad brass caused all those issues, I use the same fittings shown and have NEVER had one issue other than my own errors in not crimping them square. Gotta love these reps


 Just like the Navian Reps that come on the forums where they are getting a bad rap. They start to blame the installers.


----------



## Master Mark

*reps are clueless*

the reps are totally clueless, but everyone listens to them instead of to their gut instincts 
about the product that they are trying to sell you...:blink:

I stayed away from poly-propeline back in the early 80s cause it looked like junk to me, even though the reps said it was great..... then the troubles began to rise in a few years down the road.. 


this ZURN junk will probably bankrupt a bunch of good plumbing companies just like the KITECH disaster did out in Las Vegas..

I even have my concerns about Wirsbo , cause right now when I turn on my city water I can smell the added chlorine in the lines.....

this strong chlorine was something that everyone just ignored and said was gonna be ok, but I wonder what Wirsbo is gonna look like in 15 years??


----------



## Tankless

There was actually a lot of discussion and fact presentation about this very aspect and the long term effects chlorinated water has on pex. It was interesting to read...but facts are rarly a concern when there's money to be made. Carbon filter sales are up for me!!




Master Mark said:


> the reps are totally clueless, but everyone listens to them instead of to their gut instincts
> about the product that they are trying to sell you...:blink:
> 
> I stayed away from poly-propeline back in the early 80s cause it looked like junk to me, even though the reps said it was great..... then the troubles began to rise in a few years down the road..
> 
> 
> this ZURN junk will probably bankrupt a bunch of good plumbing companies just like the KITECH disaster did out in Las Vegas..
> 
> I even have my concerns about Wirsbo , cause right now when I turn on my city water I can smell the added chlorine in the lines.....
> 
> this strong chlorine was something that everyone just ignored and said was gonna be ok, but I wonder what Wirsbo is gonna look like in 15 years??


----------



## pauliplumber

Tankless said:


> There is NOTHING wrong with that crimp connection. I personally use the Zurn SS crimp rings and even those crimps look very much like the ones posted. To say they were not crimpped correctly is rediculas and they didn't leak....soooo?
> 
> I think bad brass caused all those issues, I use the same fittings shown and have NEVER had one issue other than my own errors in not crimping them square. Gotta love these reps


 
My thoughts exactly :thumbsup:. I've used Zurn with the SS cinch bands for 4-5 years now, with brass fittings, without 1 problem. Yet. My crimps look similar to those in the pics. 

Our water here seems to love copper & brass. I still use mostly copper, but when the situation is right, it's spaghetti time.


----------



## TheMaster

The only fittings I've seen leak have been on well water. Bad water. I've used the shiot since the day it came out and replaced polybutylene. I've found more bad pipe than I have found bad fittings. The pipe had micro splits in it. I've found micro splits in 4 systems. Two were closed systems with no thermal exspansion control....I have no explaination on the other two systems other than it was nibco and nibco had some problems with that. I use copper rings with brass fittings. Copper is what I put in my home,sorry pex lovers. If cost or time is not an issue then I will use copper everytime in my location,and believe it or not somtimes people dont care how much it costs aslong as they get what they want.


----------



## Protech

Wow, that's a whole lot of ignorance packed into such a small post.

I guess I'll start with the fact that you called it "polypropeline"(interesting spelling) when it was polybutylene. Polypropylene and polybutylene are apples to oranges much like how pex is to polybutylene is to cpvc is to pvf is to pvc. But hey, there all plastic crap right? The major problem with the polybutylene system marketed in the USA was/is the acetal resin fittings that rapidly failed in chlorinated water. Polybutylene is still being used all around the world today in industrialized countries (Greenland, UK, Germany to name a few) without any problems. 

As far as the "KITECH" failures go, that was not the companies fault that the water in Nevada has a specific chemical makeup that de-alloyes yellow brass. Do you want to make a bet that you can walk right into any lowes or home depot in Nevada and buy yellow brass nipples as well as other fittings? Do you know why no one is taking them to court? Simple, there has been no previous lawsuit on plumbing nipples to put the smell of blood in the water for the sharks(lawyers). The only reason kitec got sued was because shell was sued before hand and it was one of the biggest litigation settlements in history so now the sharks are gunning for anything that even resembles the stuff.

And just so you know, Uponor (formerly Wirsbo) has just about the lowest chlorine resistance out of any pex out there on the market right now.






Master Mark said:


> the reps are totally clueless, but everyone listens to them instead of to their gut instincts
> about the product that they are trying to sell you...:blink:
> 
> I stayed away from poly-propeline back in the early 80s cause it looked like junk to me, even though the reps said it was great..... then the troubles began to rise in a few years down the road..
> 
> 
> this ZURN junk will probably bankrupt a bunch of good plumbing companies just like the KITECH disaster did out in Las Vegas..
> 
> I even have my concerns about Wirsbo , cause right now when I turn on my city water I can smell the added chlorine in the lines.....
> 
> this strong chlorine was something that everyone just ignored and said was gonna be ok, but I wonder what Wirsbo is gonna look like in 15 years??


----------



## Protech

...............................sorry if I kinda flew off the handle there. I've had a really rough day today.


----------



## Protech

Those hairline cracks you found are usually caused by exposure to UV and then chlorine. Some of the crappier brands out there (durapex comes to mind, and another one that is maroon in color) have little or no UV stabilizers in them. They can be exposed to UV from slits in the bags that they come in. That one sun burned area will then be damaged if exposed to chlorinated water and split.



TheMaster said:


> The only fittings I've seen leak have been on well water. Bad water. I've used the shiot since the day it came out and replaced polybutylene. I've found more bad pipe than I have found bad fittings. The pipe had micro splits in it. I've found micro splits in 4 systems. Two were closed systems with no thermal exspansion control....I have no explaination on the other two systems other than it was nibco and nibco had some problems with that. I use copper rings with brass fittings. Copper is what I put in my home,sorry pex lovers. If cost or time is not an issue then I will use copper everytime in my location,and believe it or not somtimes people dont care how much it costs aslong as they get what they want.


----------



## plumbob78

Im not saying Iv never used pex or the other new piping out there but I still dont trust it, Copper is the only way to go. I know it cost more in time and material, but like the old sayn you get what you pay for.


----------



## Wai Corp

*Zurn Ambulance Chasing*

Again, one can see immediately from Sweetness09's photo that the VANGUARD (NON-ZURN) cinch clamp on this fitting was improperly installed. Moreover, it is not even clear that this is a ZURN QPEX brass fitting. The failed fitting in the picture has shoulders on it. Vanguard brass fittings have this shoulder but the ZURN fittings in the lawsuit do not (see image on this web page: http://www.inspection-perfection.com/main/images/PEX Weak Link Overlooked_files/image002.jpg ) 

I am not a rep for Zurn or anyone else trying to make a profit off people's troubles. Perhaps that's why I don't buy into the lawyer's class action hype or the hype from plumbers who simply want to bill excess hours by hand fitting old fashioned, corrosive copper pipes together. PEX is the future of plumbing. But hey, don't take my views as gospel. Why not read what the Maryland government's task force has to say about pin hole leaks in copper pipe. This has been a mega issue in the State. :yes:

http://www.msa.md.gov/megafile/msa/...0113/001000/001566/unrestricted/20054442e.pdf


----------



## pauliplumber

I like pex, but calling copper corrosive is just plain ignorant. They both have their place.


----------



## Wai Corp

*pex vs copper*

Pauli,
You're right. In pure distilled water, the copper won't corrode or develop pin hole leaks. Most installations though, have some water chemistry going on. Depending on what's dissolved in it, the lifetime of copper can be long or short. For some applications and water chemistry, copper is expensive and slower, but technically fine. In other applications, PG county and Montgomery County in Maryland being a good examples, the local water chemistry can led to corrosion, pin hole leaks in copper and failures in a very short time. PEX companies offer 25 year warranties (of course, if your pex company is going bankrupt, that warranty won't be of much use to you). Seems that this site is geared toward copper and that dissenting views are hassled, so I'm heading for new ground. Good luck with your copper. Its worked reasonably well for decades. But PEX is the future IMHO. And as Will Rogers once said: "Even if you're on the right track, if you don't keep moving, sooner or later you're gonna get run over." Keep current buddy!
Hang in there.


----------



## Redwood

Does that mean Wai Corp has left the building?:laughing:

Maybe he needs to try copper on RO water...:laughing:


----------



## Miguel

Redwood said:


> Does that mean Wai Corp has left the building?:laughing:
> 
> Maybe he needs to try copper on RO water...:laughing:


:laughing:

Oh well. Too bad he's so thin-skinned that he wanted to bail. Never had the chance to find out if he's just narrowminded or knows more than others do. Oh well . . .

So back to the OP's topic: I've never had one break like that but at least two of the other plumbers here have had it happen. Both times it seemed almost flukey, since all the other fittings on those particular jobs were the same brand and type (both these guys are pretty diligent) and even physically stressing other exposed fittings under higher than normal test conditions couldn't re-create that kind of failure.
One was about 4 yrs ago and the other was just last fall. :shrug:


----------



## Protech

Unless you have agressive water or soil. In that case you just got screwed.



plumbob78 said:


> Im not saying Iv never used pex or the other new piping out there but I still dont trust it, Copper is the only way to go. I know it cost more in time and material, but like the old sayn you get what you pay for.


----------



## TheMaster

Protech said:


> Those hairline cracks you found are usually caused by exposure to UV and then chlorine. Some of the crappier brands out there (durapex comes to mind, and another one that is maroon in color) have little or no UV stabilizers in them. They can be exposed to UV from slits in the bags that they come in. That one sun burned area will then be damaged if exposed to chlorinated water and split.


 Nibco made durapex


----------



## Miguel

I use this stuff and it's certified for use prior to 1 year exposed to sunlight.
http://www.heatlink.com/en/system/files/Warranty/HeatLink-PEX-Pipe-Limited-Warranty-2008-10-30.pdf

Nice bendy, twisty stuff but I try to keep it out of the sunlight as much as possible anyways. I have some Rehau pieces that I can snap off sections by hand (actually I may have garbaged all that) that were exposed (while I had it) for less than two months.


----------



## Redwood

TheMaster said:


> Nibco made durapex


Yes but it was the stuff made by CPI which made DuraPEX that had the problem with the splitting...

Nibco bought them out...

That move left a bunch of people with orphaned bad product...:whistling2:


----------



## TheMaster

Redwood said:


> Yes but it was the stuff made by CPI which made DuraPEX that had the problem with the splitting...
> 
> Nibco bought them out...
> 
> That move left a bunch of people with orphaned bad product...:whistling2:


 If any of you would like samples of the bad cpi durapex let me know....I have a 15' piece of it that i cut out and kept.


----------



## Protech

*Thread resurrection*

Zurn's failures were NOT from dezincification. The failures were from using an alloy of brass that cannot be worked cold in manufacturing. Because they machined the fittings in a cold state, residual stresses were left in the fittings. When these stresses are exposed to mild surface corrosion, the corrosion rapidly attacks that alloy along grain boundaries. The result is that the fittings would spontaneously shear off without warning.

Zurn is no longer using the alloy that caused the failure. That matters little to the people who received the defective fittings and are now in court over it. I feel that Zurn is responsible and should pay up. It's a shame that the plumbers who used the product have to go to court and defend themselves even though it is not their fault and could not have known about the defect in the fittings. It has also tarnished the image of pex pipe systems. It happens all the time to other types of fittings. How many time shave you installed a bunk compression stop and had the nut split? Same cause. It’s a shame because Zurn’s pipe is good stuff and so are MOST of their fittings. This bad batch just might bury them though.

IMHO, they should have just settled out of court and paid the claims.
 

Links:

http://www.thestreet.com/story/1075...certifies-zurn-pex-plumbing-class-action.html

http://corrosion-doctors.org/Forms-SCC/scc.htm

http://www.zurnclassaction.com/documents.html

http://www.lrlawfirm.com/zurn_pex.shtml


----------



## njoy plumbing

Protech said:


> I looked into this issue and found the cause of the failure to be stress-corrosion cracking. It was caused by a bad batch of fittings that Zurn put out. Essentially a dull bit was used on the fittings during manufacturing that caused micro cracks to form in the metals crystalline structure. When exposed to water the cracks quickly corrode and cause the fitting to suddenly shear off.


 This is the same reason for falures up here as well. Wholesalers are being careful now where they purchase from as they don't care for liability issues of that magnitude.


----------



## Protech

I would like to correct that statement. I misunderstood what I was reading at the time.

The SCC was caused by machining that zinc rich brass at cold temperatures. As you increase the zinc and decrease the copper in the brass alloy, it can no longer be machined at low temperatures. If it is "worked cold" stress marks (micro cracks) are left on the surface of the machined areas. Those cracks are then forced open by corrosion salts. Think of it like driving a wedge into logs wood grain. The brass then quickly splits along the grain boundaries.

Bottom line: It was a manufacturing defect. They should have kept the brass hot while working it or used a higher copper (more expensive) brass.




njoy plumbing said:


> This is the same reason for falures up here as well. Wholesalers are being careful now where they purchase from as they don't care for liability issues of that magnitude.


----------



## Redwood

Protech said:


> I would like to correct that statement. I misunderstood what I was reading at the time.
> 
> The SCC was caused by machining that zinc rich brass at cold temperatures. As you increase the zinc and decrease the copper in the brass alloy, it can no longer be machined at low temperatures. If it is "worked cold" stress marks (micro cracks) are left on the surface of the machined areas. Those cracks are then forced open by corrosion salts. Think of it like driving a wedge into logs wood grain. The brass then quickly splits along the grain boundaries.
> 
> Bottom line: It was a manufacturing defect. They should have kept the brass hot while working it or used a higher copper (more expensive) brass.


Or maybe they should have just had the stuff made for them by a machine shop in the US...

While the Chinese products may look right sometimes they miss something in the finer points....:laughing:


----------



## Protech

So you won't be purchasing one of those BYD cars? :laughing:



Redwood said:


> Or maybe they should have just had the stuff made for them by a machine shop in the US...
> 
> While the Chinese products may look right sometimes they miss something in the finer points....:laughing:


----------



## Redwood

Probably not... :laughing:


----------



## bigdawginc

i am amember of phcc. i recived a letter in reference to what occured bad smelting!!! i use poly fittings,some tonships we must test with 100psi for 24 hrs never have had any issues. ido mostly new constrution never an issue & i conventionally fit no manablock!


----------



## bigdawginc

i use poly fittings., got a letter throgh phcc ,bad smelting is what cause,stay away from brass inserts i lv pex new work ole work all i can, pro press when coppering!!! oh yea i can solder like a mofo still after 33 yrs.


----------



## Protech

Bad smelting huh? :laughing:

You do realize the smelting of the brass has nothing to do with the fittings failing, right?

Smelting is the extraction of metals from ores. The extracted metals (mainly copper and zinc) are then alloyed made into billets or cast into rough fittings. The failure was due to the cast/billet fittings being machined without proper stress relief (heat).

Just thought you should know.




bigdawginc said:


> i am amember of phcc. i recived a letter in reference to what occured bad smelting!!! i use poly fittings,some tonships we must test with 100psi for 24 hrs never have had any issues. ido mostly new constrution never an issue & i conventionally fit no manablock!


----------



## Redwood

Protech said:


> Bad smelting huh? :laughing:
> 
> You do realize the smelting of the brass has nothing to do with the fittings failing, right?
> 
> Smelting is the extraction of metals from ores. The extracted metals (mainly copper and zinc) are then alloyed made into billets or cast into rough fittings. The failure was due to the cast/billet fittings being machined without proper stress relief (heat).
> 
> Just thought you should know.


Go easy on him Protech it was the first post he made that was legible, all the others were written in kiddie texting code....:laughing:


----------



## sparky

sweetness09 said:


> Home two years old, homeowner noticed a drip in his mechanical room coming from this hot 3/4" pex run. This line was STRAIGHT, not kinked or stressed out. Water pressure -60 lbs. At first inspection looks like a leaking crimp ring. It was a slow drip. After cutting this fitting out, the tee broke off in hand. Ive read about the lawsuit but this is the first fitting we have seen like this! Scary to think about, the home could have flooded at any time! How many of you have seen this?


That's why we install plastic fittings only we have real hard water in cave country and It's always zurn pex!!! Sex with the pex loooloo")


----------

