# Old school ...



## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Did a remodel a few weeks ago, all the copper was bent like this. Made me sad that a lot of it underground was bad, replaced all the copper with pex.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Skills, I used to bend all the time. Miss those days


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

I'm so used to using rigid copper on plumbing I never really thought about using my benders. We make bends like those all the time on air conditioning installs.


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## KoleckeINC (Oct 22, 2011)

If you can get away with K above ground. Yep-bend away.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

KoleckeINC said:


> If you can get away with K above ground. Yep-bend away.


Or L copper.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Inspector told me once that bending copper makes the outer radius a bit thinner after it is bent. Hard to argue against that point.

I've bent some copper in the past, made others on the job notice.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Tommy plumber said:


> Inspector told me once that bending copper makes the outer radius a bit thinner after it is bent. Hard to argue against that point.
> 
> I've bent some copper in the past, made others on the job notice.




Yup, but cut that bend in half and measure with a micrometer, then cut a 90 in half and measure. I bet the bend is still thicker.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plumbdrum said:


> Yup, but cut that bend in half and measure with a micrometer, then cut a 90 in half and measure. I bet the bend is still thicker.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


:yes:


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

I still bend copper when it makes sense so pretty much only 1/2" and almost never 3/4" except for making crooks for washing machine discharge hoses. It's better than sticking the rubber hose in the stand pipe because over time the rubber hose flattens out where it is bent over and then the washer doesn't empty all the way.


You can bend many brands of L copper, I used to know which ones. I can tell you for 100% that you can bend mueller L. In the uk they still bend copper all the time so i imagine that the companies which sell over there just temper all of there L copper to the same standard. That's the issue with some brands, They don't heat the copper enough for it to be bendable without cracking. You'll get like 15 degrees into the bend and then the wall will just pull apart.







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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

they sell different grades of copper( all of it L thickness), some for bending and some not, I was told the bending copper, has more copper content to allow it to bend without kinking, and it cost more than non bending copper , also the radius on the bender makes a difference on how well you can bend it, I use to bend alot, until pex took over..


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> they sell different grades of copper( all of it L thickness), some for bending and some not, I was told the bending copper, has more copper content to allow it to bend without kinking, and it cost more than non bending copper , also the radius on the bender makes a difference on how well you can bend it, I use to bend alot, until pex took over..



Seamless Copper Water Tube:
Copper water tube is a seamless, almost pure copper
material manufactured to the requirements of ASTM B 88 –
Standard Specification for Seamless Copper Water Tube, of
three basic wall thickness dimensions designated as types K, L,
and M. Type K is the thickest and type M is the thinnest with
type L being of intermediate thickness. All three types of tube
are manufactured from copper alloy C12200 having a chemical
composition of a minimum of 99.9% Copper (Cu) and Silver
(Ag) combined and a maximum allowable range of
Phosphorous (P) of 0.015 % - 0.040 %.
Seamless copper water tube is manufactured in sizes 1⁄4”
through 12” nominal. Types K and L are manufactured in drawn
temper (hard) 1⁄4” through 12” and annealed temper (soft) coils
1⁄4” through 2” while type M is only manufactured in drawn (hard)
temper 1⁄4” through 12”.
Seamless copper water tube of drawn temper is required to
be identified with a color stripe that contains the manufacturer’s
name or trademark, type of tube and nation of origin. This colorstripe is green for type K, blue for type L and red for type M. In
addition to the color stripe the tube is incised with the type of
tube and the manufacturer’s name or trademark at intervals not
in excess of 11⁄2 ft. Annealed (soft) coils or annealed straight
lengths are not required to be identified with a color stripe.





So regardless of the silver and phosphorous content it is always at least 99.9% copper. I don't think that changes the bending ability. From what I have learned that is determined by the temper and not the minor differences in acceptable alloys. The phosphorous and the silver are added for ease of wetting when being soldered.


I know that some brands will crack if bent. I also know that tempering them makes them bendable and that doesn't require changing their alloy so I doubt the phosphorous and silver content matter for bending.


I think the main difference is amount of tempering before final drawing. Most companies won't find it profitable to burn the extra gas to temper more just so a fraction of the plumbers who do still bend copper will be happy. Mueller on the other hand is the largest player and thus a "small fraction" is still relatively large profit wise and they need to sell to those guys too.



I also think that because mueller supplies so much copper pipe in the same size for acr and medgas that it just makes sense for them to fire it all to the same temper and not bother having a seperate oven just for L & K water pipe when it is essentially less clean acr/medgas piping.





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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

I took a quess at what the difference might have been, but I know years ago the supply house would have bending copper and non bending, if you didnt ask for the bending copper you got the non bending stuff..and I tried to bend it a few times and it cracked at the bend..


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I took a quess at what the difference might have been, but I know years ago the supply house would have bending copper and non bending, if you didnt ask for the bending copper you got the non bending stuff..and I tried to bend it a few times and it cracked at the bend..


Our supply house carries mueller and cerro, you almost always get mueller which is bendable, cerro isn't. Many of the houses I go into with bent copper the pipe doesn't have the paint stripe which tells me they ordered straight sticks of soft copper. That is certainly a fine option but I would guess that it costs more, is more likely to bend in transit, and ultimately won't look quite as neat. Surely much easier to bend though which if I did it all the time I would prefer. 

I do love it when I can put the words "MUELLER STREAMLINE MADE IN USA" right in between some bends, looks real spiffy 

If you guys want I can make a picture tutorial on simple compound bends for those of you who don't/might never bend straight L. I can't promise when and I can't promise it will be perfect.




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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

What kind of bender do you use? I am guessing a ridgid single size lever bender? We have those and some eastman wheel benders at the shop.

I use a draper 34212 I got from ray grahams for ~75$ with shipping.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-34212-22mm-Tube-Bender/dp/B00UOSSYA6

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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> If you guys want I can make a picture tutorial on simple compound bends for those of you who don't/might never bend straight L. I can't promise when and I can't promise it will be perfect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your code allows to bend type L?

If you do a tutorial please post it in the lounge so not to give away the trade.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> What kind of bender do you use? I am guessing a ridgid single size lever bender? We have those and some eastman wheel benders at the shop.
> 
> I use a draper 34212 I got from ray grahams for ~75$ with shipping.
> 
> ...



no it wasnt like a conduit bender, it was compact with a geared wheel that would turn the bender, I havent bent pipe for such a long time I have to look for them to get a picture, I tried to google but none that came up look like the ones I used..


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> no it wasnt like a conduit bender, it was compact with a geared wheel that would turn the bender, I havent bent pipe for such a long time I have to look for them to get a picture, I tried to google but none that came up look like the ones I used..


Sounds like an imperial geared bender. We have many of those at the shop. Only used them once. They are physically easier and more accurate but seemed much slower than my lever bender

Conduit benders don't work for bend quality L because it is too ridgid and needs support all the way round so as not to kink.



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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

this is the type I used..they would make nice tight radius and compound bends...


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## czplumbing (Nov 24, 2014)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> this is the type I used..they would make nice tight radius and compound bends...


Same one I use, only bend 1/2" no more than a 45 copper starts to kink up . don't even bother with 3/4 even though I have the bender. even if you heat up the 3/4 it does not work. miss the K copper


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## Spacepirate (Jan 16, 2018)

Works of art.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

czplumbing said:


> Same one I use, only bend 1/2" no more than a 45 copper starts to kink up . don't even bother with 3/4 even though I have the bender. even if you heat up the 3/4 it does not work. miss the K copper



What brand of copper are you using? Btw, M copper will not work.




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