# This drain defeated me!



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I had to unclog the laundry line. The kitchen line was also connected to it underground.

My 3/8 and several bits wouldn't go further than 2 feet and about 6 inches after the underground elbow. I think I hit clay.

I tried the 5/16 with the same results. I think the underground pipe is broken and filled with packed clay. I still charged the 2 hours I spent there including the installation of a C/O

What are opinions about this?


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

Looks like clay to me. Time to jackhammer.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I told them to get a second opinion but weren't thrilled, 99% of other companies are bad apples around here.

Anyone else agree it's clay? I could make a lot of money breaking concrete and fixing it.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> I told them to get a second opinion but weren't thrilled, 99% of other companies are bad apples around here.
> 
> .



are you out of your mind?????? telling a customer to get someone else for an estimate....you give the people the price and or estimated cost for a job, but tell them no guarantee on final price as its clay, now if the CUSTOMER says they want to get another price fine, but you DONT EVER suggest that....
it shows your not sure of yourself and the next guy will steal the job with a fake cheap start price and them hit them with all the extras....


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Like I said I'm in unknown territory. Not 100% sure it was clay. I prefer to err on the safe side than being wrong and doing something stupid.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> Like I said I'm in unknown territory. Not 100% sure it was clay. I prefer to err on the safe side than being wrong and doing something stupid.


do you have a camera? take a look whats down there....but if the drain cleaner cant go through it you take your best guess and go for it..if its a broken pipe in your best opinion then sell it and do the job, either way the pipe needs to be cleaned, either removal and replacement or drain cleaner...you tried on method now its time for plan B..dig


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I have a cam, it won't fit in 1 1/2" pipe. I could see the if the mainline just beside also has clay. I would have to cut out the brass cleanout.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Clay or dirt retrieved on a cutter like that means one thing. Rotted out line. Sometimes I get them open, sometimes it’s a bust up. Closer picture would be helpful, but you have a rotted line.

When you bid, remember the fact you’re going to be dealing with nasty sewer soaked dirt! Make it worth your time.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

The line isn’t filled with packed clay, there’s a hole in the cast iron and your cable is going into the dirt. I just did one the other day. My neighbor ran his snake through the tub waste/overflow, tested to see if it was clear and water was pouring out. 

He called me and I busted up the slab for the repair. I found a lot more rotten cast under the slab.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Don’t want to, but looking at a 36 unit occupied underground. 


Did I say I don’t want to? If not, I’d like to say I don’t want to.

Right now, not including cement we’re at $110k. If this goes through we will need to hire extra workers, and I’m going to strong arm for more $ from my Master!


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

That's the pictures I have. I'll call them tomorrow morning to see if they haven't hired another company.

I was thinking staying on an hourly discounted rate. I have no idea what I need to replace once it's broken up. It's safe to say I'll be spending at least 10 hours breaking concrete, replacing the rotted part and re-cementing. If it didn't affect the main line that's right beside it.


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

I don't know what it's like up there but I love those jobs since they're usually a guaranteed sale. They need their drain working plus you've already built a rapport with them, at least you should have if you've been in the house for hours. 
I usually give them an estimate on the spot since I carry a full size and micro camera. If it's broken under the slab I'll recommend they call their insurance since 70 to 80 percent of the time it will be covered and nobody wants to spend thousands of dollars out of pocket when they could just pay a deductible.
I'll usually ask if they'd like to me to wait while they call insurance since I know they're more likely to approve the work if it's explained in a professional manner.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> I don't know what it's like up there but I love those jobs since they're usually a guaranteed sale. They need their drain working plus you've already built a rapport with them, at least you should have if you've been in the house for hours.
> I usually give them an estimate on the spot since I carry a full size and micro camera. If it's broken under the slab I'll recommend they call their insurance since 70 to 80 percent of the time it will be covered and nobody wants to spend thousands of dollars out of pocket when they could just pay a deductible.
> I'll usually ask if they'd like to me to wait while they call insurance since I know they're more likely to approve the work if it's explained in a professional manner.


Thanks that's useful info! I own a 3' mini ridgid cam which is not really good. and a real ridgid micro is about 6 or 9 thousand dollars I can't remember. Never will I buy that at that price and the image quality is as bad as the 3' x 130$ one.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> I don't know what it's like up there but I love those jobs since they're usually a guaranteed sale. They need their drain working plus you've already built a rapport with them, at least you should have if you've been in the house for hours.
> I usually give them an estimate on the spot since I carry a full size and micro camera. If it's broken under the slab I'll recommend they call their insurance since 70 to 80 percent of the time it will be covered and nobody wants to spend thousands of dollars out of pocket when they could just pay a deductible.
> I'll usually ask if they'd like to me to wait while they call insurance since I know they're more likely to approve the work if it's explained in a professional manner.


Do you guys rent a fan and flexible exhaust to the outdoors to get the dust out while breaking the floor? It's a tiny space /bathroom and outside of that it's a finished basement,


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

That looks like soap and grease not dirt but I could be wrong.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

T&M, don’t discount snit! Start busting up where your cable went in and follow it to the bad spot and keep following till you find good pipe or the main. 

10 hours by yourself, that’s a good payday.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Tango said:


> Do you guys rent a fan and flexible exhaust to the outdoors to get the dust out while breaking the floor? It's a tiny space /bathroom and outside of that it's a finished basement,


Bring some tarps, tell the customer to remove what they don’t want dust on before you start busting up.


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

Do you guys rent a fan and flexible exhaust to the outdoors to get the dust out while breaking the floor? It's a tiny space /bathroom and outside of that it's a finished basement,[/QUOTE]

We own one of those fans. We we're doing enough inside digs where it became cheaper to buy than rent. We also have 2 jackhammers and 2 OSHA compliant silica dust vacuums with attachments for the jackhammers. 
With the attachment and silica vacuum we really don't need the fan. The amount of dust released is negligible but we use it anyway.
I don't know what micro camera you tried but our Ridgid micro reels have an excellent image. Probably close to DVD quality. We have an 80' and a 100'. 
I've seen some used units for around $2,000.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Thinking it over night I'm not sure I want to do this. 2 feet away is a shower sitting and connected directly on top of the main. That means 2 -3 feet from the abs clean out I installed is the main which is right by the foundation and footing. I probably have to remove the shower stall. What if the connection to the main is bad(cast iron) then I'm up $hit creek as its right at the foundation footing. I'm not about to dig under the foundation or have a backhoe dig the front yard.

I think it's too much risk for it to go wrong as a one man shop.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

justme said:


> That looks like soap and grease not dirt but I could be wrong.


I think its clay, it was very sticky and it had a crunching sound between the spring of the bit. Clay is always gritty. I don't know if you can see in the picture but the bulb on floor for the 3/8 cable bent out of shape.


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

Tango said:


> Thinking it over night I'm not sure I want to do this. 2 feet away is a shower sitting and connected directly on top of the main. That means 2 -3 feet from the abs clean out I installed is the main which is right by the foundation and footing. I probably have to remove the shower stall. What if the connection to the main is bad(cast iron) then I'm up $hit creek as its right at the foundation footing. I'm not about to dig under the foundation or have a backhoe dig the front yard.
> 
> I think it's too much risk for it to go wrong as a one man shop.


 That's why you need to video inspect first. You do a video inspection of the main, shower and any other drains in the vicinity of where you'll be digging. The more information you have the better. Going in blindly is just asking for trouble. 
If you do a video inspection of the line you snaked you may not see anything but at least you can use a locator to follow the pipe. That should give you an idea if you're going to have to mess with the shower.
Don't they rent equipment like that up your way? If not, call someone who does and pay them to do it for you once you make a deal with the homeowner.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> That's why you need to video inspect first. You do a video inspection of the main, shower and any other drains in the vicinity of where you'll be digging. The more information you have the better. Going in blindly is just asking for trouble.
> If you do a video inspection of the line you snaked you may not see anything but at least you can use a locator to follow the pipe. That should give you an idea if you're going to have to mess with the shower.
> Don't they rent equipment like that up your way? If not, call someone who does and pay them to do it for you once you make a deal with the homeowner.


The main 4" with a brass plug is 2-3 feet away from the 1 1/2" C/O where I snaked it. I probably would have to cut the 4" plug to see inside. Once removed I doubt about sealing it with a new plastic cap. 

3 doors down 10 or more houses get flooded several times by the city, another problem if I remove it. I'm responsible if it doesn't seal well.

I could use my chinese 50M camera and locator on the main to locate the branch and see it there's mud. There's only one place where they rent a single camera for large pipe and its not always available.


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## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

Tango said:


> I had to unclog the laundry line. The kitchen line was also connected to it underground.
> 
> My 3/8 and several bits wouldn't go further than 2 feet and about 6 inches after the underground elbow. I think I hit clay.
> 
> ...


That's definitely broken and clay... so I'd just give them a quote to fix it and hopefully they bite... more than likely it's just the 90 gone... your cable probably went into the ground and went a little furthur


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## Standard Drain (Feb 17, 2016)

I would go into this situation with the guess that its a broken P-trap. Give them an estimate to replace this area.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Standard Drain said:


> I would go into this situation with the guess that its a broken P-trap. Give them an estimate to replace this area.


There's no underground 1 1/2" p-trap around here... 

You have them???


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## Standard Drain (Feb 17, 2016)

I've ran into it..


There almost looks like the concrete where the pipe is is slightly different; maybe an add on at some point. Either way; the next step is to cut it open.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

What I'm afraid of is a back water valve outside the house from 1974. 6-8 feet deep underground. How the heck do you deal with that!


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

Tango said:


> What I'm afraid of is a back water valve outside the house from 1974. 6-8 feet deep underground. How the heck do you deal with that!


Again, that's a lot of wondering. Do a video inspection or have someone do it for you and you'll know exactly what you're getting into.
I just did a similar job today except I was able to get mine unclogged. It was for a branch line that serves the laundry, kitchen and basement tub. The cable came back caked in mud. Ran the camera found the direction the pipe was going until the camera dropped into the hole where the pipe corroded and I couldn't go farther in. Removed the toilet and found where it wyes off to the branch. Was able to give them an estimate on the spot.
I know we don't give prices on the site but let's just say I could buy another used micro reel for what I quoted. They can choose to spend big money once and not have to deal with it 2 to 3 times a year as they have. Or they can continue spending hundreds every time they call a plumber out. At least I gave them options.
This customer for example. They've spent over $2,000 snaking the drain with several companies and nobody has ever bothered to do a video inspection. Now the homeowner knows why it keeps clogging and they can choose how to proceed. Even though I charged nearly double what the last guy did they still gave me a $20 tip.
It seems to me you do a lot more drain cleaning than water heaters. Wouldn't it make more sense to save up to buy a halfway decent micro camera and locator than a stair climber? 
I understand if you don't want to get into digging up main lines outside because of all that red tape they have in your area. But surely they'd allow you to dig up the pipe inside, or are they that strict?


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> Again, that's a lot of wondering. Do a video inspection or have someone do it for you and you'll know exactly what you're getting into.


I never tried it, but does your camera see though fecal water or clay filled water? 3" to 4"? I guess it's more about locating the head than seeing forward. Second issue people complain about drain cleaning prices and if I have to add a camera fee on top and I have to say it on the phone, no way will they hire me. Then again it steers away people who aren't going to pay.





> This customer for example. They've spent over $2,000 snaking the drain with several companies and nobody has ever bothered to do a video inspection. Now the homeowner knows why it keeps clogging and they can choose how to proceed. Even though I charged nearly double what the last guy did they still gave me a $20 tip.


Will people actually pay for a camera inspection(camera fee plus time using it)? I don't have enough experience but from my limited experience and vibe I get that would be a no. At that stage they are probably thinking I'm about to rip them off.





> It seems to me you do a lot more drain cleaning than water heaters. Wouldn't it make more sense to save up to buy a halfway decent micro camera and locator than a stair climber?


I own a brand new ridgid Navitrack II. My chinese camera works on 3" and 4" if there aren't too many bends. Will your micro reel navigate 2 to 4 x 1 1/2" vent 90's? Real common around here! 
I did only 2-3 water heaters last year. I Probably did over 20 branch drain lines, over a dozen toilet clogs, half dozen lav cleaning...





> I understand if you don't want to get into digging up main lines outside because of all that red tape they have in your area. But surely they'd allow you to dig up the pipe inside, or are they that strict?


I can do inside, it's a plumber licence. I can dig outside I have that special licence too but that's a lot of anxiety for a small one man shop, no employees, and I never dug myself or worked in a trench other than my own house.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

@V.A Hydro-ooter

What exact model is your micro drain camera? I'll look for a used one if I jump on that.

I just checked this video, the 90's are long turn which aren't the ones plumber's use around here. The guys use these one. There not supposed to but they do because they'e cheap, and also hacks use them in abundance hidden in walls. My 5/16 drain cable without the special lead won't go through.









.


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

I have a micro reel and micro drain. The micro drain is able to do pool 90's so it should be able to do vent 90's. The micro reel can do it also but not as well. I wouldn't do more than 2 with the micro reel.

Sometimes I'll throw in a video inspection for free if I think I can get more work out of it. For certain jobs the video inspection is priced in already.

I always do a video inspection if I'm doing a main sewer line, hydro jetting or if they've informed me it has been an ongoing issue. 

As far as pricing goes, I think you just have to work on your confidence. If you have doubt in your pricing then that will show when you speak to customers.

I worked for some of the bigger companies in the area with the highest prices around. I would always sell my jobs for the full price that the company set. Those were negotiable so many guys were doing them for half just to get the job. These were the guys who would always complain about prices being too high. Yet somehow the best performers were able to get full price consistently, all while working the same area and with the same customers.

I don't see how it would be an issue if you mention to the homeowner that you offer a video inspection service. It's up to them to decide if they want it. There are many people who would rather take care of the problem once and for all and appreciate having that option. What I do is inform them that their lines are old, the pipe could have issues beyond a normal clog and I lack x-ray vision so I won't know until I work on it.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> I have a micro reel and micro drain. The micro drain is able to do pool 90's so it should be able to do vent 90's. The micro reel can do it also but not as well. I wouldn't do more than 2 with the micro reel.


Do you use the CA-350 monitor with the micro drain?


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

[/quote]

Do you use the CA-350 monitor with the micro drain?[/QUOTE]

I use the ca-300 and I also have the adaptor to use them with the LCD Pak.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> I use the ca-300 and I also have to adaptor to use them with the LCD Pak.



My search has now begun for a microdrain seesnake and a CA-350. While searching for a used unit I'm still going to wait for the next staircat to show up for sale.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> My search has now begun for a microdrain seesnake and a CA-350. While searching for a used unit I'm still going to wait for the next staircat to show up for sale.



I have the cs-6 pak seesnake and it has served me very well. I can get it through 1-1/2" abs/pvc 90's. I have been using it as my only camera for about 5 years now.


Btw, how's the mini jetter serving you?








.


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## rooterboy (Jul 16, 2009)

*Vent 90*



Tango said:


> @V.A Hydro-ooter
> 
> What exact model is your micro drain camera? I'll look for a used one if I jump on that.
> 
> ...



You showed a picture of a vent 90 to be used in vents only there are three sizes that I know of Vent 90, Medium sweep, and long sweep


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

rooterboy said:


> You showed a picture of a vent 90 to be used in vents only there are three sizes that I know of Vent 90, Medium sweep, and long sweep


Yes I know the types. Like I said previously new construction plumbers, most often times kids fresh out of high school without any beard yet install vent 90's on the drain side because they don't know any better or their boss tell them to do it that way to save time, in turn it saves money. No inspection, who cares.

Second problem construction plumbers have no idea what drain cleaning is. They have no concept of future problems when blockages happen.


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## rooterboy (Jul 16, 2009)

*New Construction Plumbers*

You are right I did new construction for a few years. Install the plumbing as fast as you can because the boss only got a few hundred dollars for drain instillation per unit. In California the plumbing is inspected. I remember on a job for a multiple unit condo complexes. The plumbers installed main line clean outs under commercial water heaters not what I call accessible? They could have used another 3' of piping and put the clean out outside of the footing in the sidewalk. I do not know why the inspector passed it. I was not in charge just a track plumber for a few years after I got out of the Air Force. I did see some really skilled installers on the job site. It is good to have new construction experience as well as repair remodel drain cleaning experience to have a well rounded knowledge of how things are installed and maintained. David


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## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

What ever came of this Tango... did you get the repair or let it go.. This kind of repair could definitely make a dent in the cost for a camera


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Venomthirst said:


> What ever came of this Tango... did you get the repair or let it go.. This kind of repair could definitely make a dent in the cost for a camera


I said previously I told them to get a second opinion. It was my first time getting into clay. The main right by the footing sitting under a shower stall. A can of worms waiting to be opened.

So many rules and laws I didn't want to get involved and get blamed and probably have to foot the the bill. Big companies out here are immune to cfficial complaints it seems and screw people over. Customers don't complain or go after them but they so go after a little contractor like me.

Yep it would help get the camera paid...If they paid that is, any big estimate I do they look for the cheapest alternative.

I bought a main drain camera and locator and no one wants to pay for it. A complete bust.


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## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

Hey man don't worry it'll pay off... maybe offer yosur services to other plumbing companies that dont have that equipment... sometimes it pays to work with others.. camera is a must if you plan on roughing in a bathroom in basement....

I know you dont like being involved with other companies but sometimes it can pay off.. my motto is never burn a bridge and respect all around..


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Venomthirst said:


> Hey man don't worry it'll pay off... maybe offer yosur services to other plumbing companies that dont have that equipment... sometimes it pays to work with others.. camera is a must if you plan on roughing in a bathroom in basement....
> 
> I know you dont like being involved with other companies but sometimes it can pay off.. my motto is never burn a bridge and respect all around..


It's not friendly territory around here. I haven't met any decent plumbers or honest companies in my area. They all seem to offer camera services too. I don't refer to any other company and no one refers to me. I'm stuck in service work and a little lateral drain lines but I get mostly people who'll pay for 2-3 hours of work.


I'm called for estimates all the time for rough ins and its a waste of time. No one pays for my time, and if I do it for free all the others charge half and hack it big time. I've been to many renos where they call me to fix some issues from the last plumber. Not too long ago a full kitchen gut and I was called 2 weeks after the job was done!


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## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

It'll happen Tango if you provide a better service than those other guys... 

eventually people realize you get what you pay for.. were middle of the road I think but were not all that cheap...

However, we find that other people that have had sewer problems enough eventually find us and we take care of them.. most of our guys do a good job and if it plugs up again I usually get sent back and do a through job..

Your camera one day will pay for itself just keep positive your business is still in its infantcy and when word of mouth starts rolling you will be busy... those companies that hack it usually dont last too long... 

Your right mainlines can be a tough thing to deal with when your by yourself... but in drain work thata where you can charge the most... when there is turds on the floor people freak out and they need someone now! But if you like installing fixtures and finishing and stuff or doing a rough in here or there that's good to.. 

Do what you like doing it's too hard to do everything.. unless you got 15 employees to do it for you then that's a different story... Our company tries to do everything but still there is something were just not setup to do...

We dont do any new construction because my boss says I'm not letting a builder build their houses with my money and it's TRUE...

So we strictly do service mostly high-rise plumbing , residential plumbing and not much but a bit of commercial stuff... once and a blue moon some industrial but we dont really like doing that stuff.. 

Drain cleaning wise we have everything pretty much just dont do lining and we dont have a crawler.. so basically 12" and below we clean and max 10" we can video up to let's say 200'


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