# CA underground flare fittings



## voltatab

I live in Southern california and perform a bunch of slab leak detection and repiar. Ive have had to repair underground copper many times before with a copper fitting but it can be a pain cleaning the oxidation off and dealing with remaining water, mishapen tubing etc, 

Ive recently been told by a plumber that flare fittings are used commonly for underground soft copper as they are stronger and more durable than silver solder (his words) 

Ive personally never seen one used around here nor have I used one for water...

Are using flare fittings underground code in california? Is what Ive been told true about strength? Is this a faster method than silver solder? Tell me what you think and what you do.

Thnaks all you master plumbers


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## plumbpro

Does it seem like a good idea to put a flare fitting under concrete? I don't know about the left coast, but here the only approved copper connections in a slab are going to be silver soldered


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## RW Plumbing

There's no such thing as silver soldering It's brazing. :whistling2:


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## plumbpro

RW Plumbing said:


> There's no such thing as silver soldering It's brazing. :whistling2:


It is common here to call it silver soldering or sill-floss. The technical term would be brazing, but this is arkansas


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## smudge

Legend repair couplings compression for water mains. Easier then flare and will not pull apart


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## plumbpro

smudge said:


> Legend repair couplings compression for water mains. Easier then flare and will not pull apart


I've used those outside, but would not use one under concrete. I think that's what he is asking about?


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## plbgbiz

My understanding is that the code would refer to an underground/exterior location as somewhat accessible adn low risk. Where as an underground location that is also under a slab and interior would not be considered accessible. In addition, the under slab location poses risk of damage to the structure.

Although there may be mechanical short term repairs that some of us may or may not be willing to try, I don't think a mechanical fitting on a water line under an interior slab will be approved in any form by any code.

In my experience, inspectors have been much less concerned about the cost or inconvenience of a given repair solution no matter how drastic as compared to whether or not it meets the letter of the code they are enforcing.


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## voltatab

yeah it just doesnt seem right to bury a brass fitting in the dirt under a slab, but in the case of a leak, a new connection must be made, and I have heard a coupe times now that a flare fitting is much stronger than a (brazed) fitting.


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## Bill

plumbpro said:


> It is common here to call it silver soldering or sill-floss. The technical term would be brazing, but this is arkansas


I guess farmville va is behind the times because we also call it silver soldering as well


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## Tommy plumber

Down here is South FLA we also call it silver soldering. But yes, technically it is brazing. The brazing rods by code melt at a temperature above 1000 F. That is also what is required for medical gas piping. So it is probably never going to leak. Whereas I wouldn't bet on a flare joint under a slab NEVER leaking. If after repair is made with a flare fitting and customer starts getting high water bills, what are you going to do then? Go chip open slab to investigate? If an underground copper line had a leak in (1) place who is to say it won't get another leak 2 or 3 feet away? I prefer to run a whole new line above or around. With a new line you can warranty your new line won't have any leaks. More peice of mind for customer.


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## gladerunner

In phila. all underground domestic water required by code to be flare fittings,from main to meter. Don't think the fitting knows that there's a slab above it


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## rocksteady

gladerunner said:


> In phila. all underground domestic water required by code to be flare fittings,from main to meter. Don't think the fitting knows that there's a slab above it


The fitting may not but the guy jackhammering the slab would. 








Paul


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## Tommy plumber

gladerunner said:


> In phila. all underground domestic water required by code to be flare fittings,from main to meter. Don't think the fitting knows that there's a slab above it


 
So you are talking about from city main to meter? That is the city's jurisdiction and they can do whatever they want. But to put a flare fitting under a cement slab isn't a good plumbing practice in my opinion. Would you use a flare fitting on a gas line under a slab?


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## TheMaster

I will use 95/5 solder to repair a copper water line under a slab if I'm repairing because its worn out or otherwise super thin. If I'm repairing it because of lightning and its good pipe I will braze it.


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## mssp

I have installed flare fittings for over 25 yrs on service lines. i wouldnt have a problem putting one under a slab, in fact I have a few times. I have seen type L copper split when it is flared, but I always use type K. never had a problem


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## Redwood

Tommy plumber said:


> So you are talking about from city main to meter? That is the city's jurisdiction and they can do whatever they want.


Maybe where you are, but here between the curb stop and the meter belongs to the homeowner cause the meter is in the basement.:laughing:


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## bigdawginc

*Hey how u doin!*



voltatab said:


> I live in Southern california and perform a bunch of slab leak detection and repiar. Ive have had to repair underground copper many times before with a copper fitting but it can be a pain cleaning the oxidation off and dealing with remaining water, mishapen tubing etc,
> 
> Ive recently been told by a plumber that flare fittings are used commonly for underground soft copper as they are stronger and more durable than silver solder (his words)
> 
> Ive personally never seen one used around here nor have I used one for water...
> 
> Are using flare fittings underground code in california? Is what Ive been told true about strength? Is this a faster method than silver solder? Tell me what you think and what you do.
> 
> Thnaks all you master plumbers


 I Live in phila. we use nthing but flare to flare fitting for underground water! very simple to use also. but i been doing for a along time!! pro press fittings are approved for undergrond also! have u ever used this system? good luck


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## bigdawginc

*come on take it easy on em!*



gladerunner said:


> In phila. all underground domestic water required by code to be flare fittings,from main to meter. Don't think the fitting knows that there's a slab above it


 u can solder on the water distribution! although it is frowned upon! but when push come 2 shove u do what u have 2 do in apinch! ford couplings can be used also!!! have a good nite:thumbsup:


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## JK949

Never heard of anyone doing this in my area. I wouldn't do it myself. When in doubt, reroute.


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## Protech

So what would you call a low melting and flowing temperature, silver bearing alloy used to fill the gaps in between copper pipes and fittings?

I call it solder, and using it would be soldering. Since it contains silver, I don't think one would be wrong in calling it silver soldering.

Even when brazing with silver bearing alloys, I don't think using the term "silver soldering" is all that wrong. It's just one of those grey areas of terminology. Maybe not the most accurate, but not "wrong". 



RW Plumbing said:


> There's no such thing as silver soldering It's brazing. :whistling2:


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## Protech

Under slabs I soft solder using an air/acetylene torch or an oxi/acetylene torch. I can see no legitimate reason to braze potable lines here in Florida as soft solders are allowed to be used under slab here.

Actually, I can't think of any reason to braze on potable at all unless you are working on evacuated tube solar collectors or some other super high heat application.


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## Optimus Primer

shark bites are approved under slab too, but I would never use them. 


And Tommy Plumber, things must be real different for the 200 plus miles we live from each other. Here the city owns everything to the meter, the water service from the meter to the house is the home owners responsibility.

When our shop orders Delta's 501 lav faucet that has just straight copper on it I will solder that end of the compression coupling on and then convert to pex after that. That way if the cleaning people or whoever goes in there bumping things around, it wont leak.



bigdawginc said:


> I Live in phila. we use nthing but flare to flare fitting for underground water! very simple to use also. but i been doing for a along time!! pro press fittings are approved for undergrond also! have u ever used this system? good luck


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## Protech

Pure genious! That's going right in the bag tricks.



house plumber said:


> shark bites are approved under slab too, but I would never use them.
> 
> 
> And Tommy Plumber, things must be real different for the 200 plus miles we live from each other. Here the city owns everything to the meter, the water service from the meter to the house is the home owners responsibility.
> 
> *When our shop orders Delta's 501 lav faucet that has just straight copper on it I will solder that end of the compression coupling on and then convert to pex after that. That way if the cleaning people or whoever goes in there bumping things around, it wont leak*.


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## Protech

Yeah, for hard copper only. You know as well as I do that most systems are soft around here.

Also, Polk county has a local ordinance against using them under slab.



house plumber said:


> *shark bites are approved under slab too*, but I would never use them.
> 
> 
> And Tommy Plumber, things must be real different for the 200 plus miles we live from each other. Here the city owns everything to the meter, the water service from the meter to the house is the home owners responsibility.
> 
> When our shop orders Delta's 501 lav faucet that has just straight copper on it I will solder that end of the compression coupling on and then convert to pex after that. That way if the cleaning people or whoever goes in there bumping things around, it wont leak.


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## Optimus Primer

I just sand the copper obviously appy flux on copper and on threads of coupling. Solder around the nut and copper and then the threads. I tighten it on too of course but no need to go super tight.


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## Optimus Primer

yeah I know. I was just stating that it is approved. Because that one guy said its approved to use flare fittings under slab. I wouldnt use either of them in that application.



Protech said:


> Yeah, for hard copper only. You know as well as I do that most systems are soft around here.
> 
> Also, Polk county has a local ordinance against using them under slab.


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## Pipe Rat

I guess its a matter of personal opinion in some cases. Around here you can use "Silver Solder" he he Flare or compression (Ford/Pack Joint coupling) or pro press underground but under a slab Brazing only for me. I could be wrong but I truly think the local code amendments do not allow anything but brazing under slab. Soft soldering never underground around here anywhere. I have seen them pull apart.


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## plumbpro

IPC only allows brazing under a slab. Anywhere else underground you can solder or use a mechanical fitting. I personally have only ever used flare fittings to repair existing LP lines or connect hard pipe to a soft copper LP feeder line.


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## Protech

What would pull apart a totally soldered joint underground? Ya'll sitting on a fault line over there? 

Seriously though, The only joints I've ever seen pull apart where cold soldered joints. You know, the ones where the solder is just wiped around the outside of the joint. The ones that you can deflect the pipe a bit and then pull it right out of the hub bare handed.



Piperat said:


> I guess its a matter of personal opinion in some cases. Around here you can use "Silver Solder" he he Flare or compression (Ford/Pack Joint coupling) or pro press underground but under a slab Brazing only for me. I could be wrong but I truly think the local code amendments do not allow anything but brazing under slab. Soft soldering never underground around here anywhere. *I have seen them pull apart*.


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## TheMaster

Piperat said:


> I guess its a matter of personal opinion in some cases. Around here you can use "Silver Solder" he he Flare or compression (Ford/Pack Joint coupling) or pro press underground but under a slab Brazing only for me. I could be wrong but I truly think the local code amendments do not allow anything but brazing under slab. Soft soldering never underground around here anywhere. I have seen them pull apart.


Here a joint on copper under the slab is suppose to be brazed. A brazed joint is stronger than the pipe if the pipe is new. On old thin copper under a slab I have used soft solder as a temporary repair. Trying to braze old thin copper is like pizzing in the wind. Sounds like we follow the same rules.:thumbsup:


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## Miguel

TheMaster said:


> Here a joint on copper under the slab is suppose to be brazed. A brazed joint is stronger than the pipe if the pipe is new. On old thin copper under a slab I have used soft solder as a temporary repair. Trying to braze old thin copper is like pizzing in the wind. Sounds like we follow the same rules.:thumbsup:


Pretty much the same here. Old, thin copper has to be replace as the minimum is type K soft. Old, pitted copper doesn't conform to the definition of type K regardless of what it used to be.

An often overlooked point is to quench the joint with cold water while the joint is still cherry red to maintain the "softness". But that's always made me wonder why we'd bother with that after brazing a coupling on that is as thick as type M at best. :whistling2:


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## plumbpro

....


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## ToUtahNow

plumbpro said:


> IPC only allows brazing under a slab. Anywhere else underground you can solder or use a mechanical fitting. I personally have only ever used flare fittings to repair existing LP lines or connect hard pipe to a soft copper LP feeder line.


Where is it approved to soft solder under the slab?

Mark


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## plumbpro

ToUtahNow said:


> Where is it approved to soft solder under the slab?
> 
> Mark


I didn't think it was approved anywhere but I've seen it before


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## plumbpro

I didn't mean anywhere else in the US, I meant in the yard, or at the meter.


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## stillaround

We do some under slab repairs and use sharkbites....but I like flared fittings on soft...besides working well it feels safe....whereas I would understand the unsafe feeling many have about sharkbites.


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## plumbpro

stillaround said:


> We do some under slab repairs and use sharkbites....but I like flared fittings on soft...besides working well it feels safe....whereas I would understand the unsafe feeling many have about sharkbites.


The only place I feel good about using sharkbites is under a house to tie onto cpvc or quest pex. I once had to add isolation valves to 1" copper under ground in a yard and wished I had 1" SB couplings to do it, because it was a PITA. An o ring seal is reliable but I wouldn't expect it to last 10 years in water.


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## plumbear

plumbpro said:


> The only place I feel good about using sharkbites is under a house to tie onto cpvc or quest pex. I once had to add isolation valves to 1" copper under ground in a yard and wished I had 1" SB couplings to do it, because it was a PITA. An o ring seal is reliable but I wouldn't expect it to last 10 years in water.


The only place I feel safe using shark bites is at least 100 yards from any structure on a non pressure line.


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## plumbear

Tommy plumber said:


> So you are talking about from city main to meter? That is the city's jurisdiction and they can do whatever they want. But to put a flare fitting under a cement slab isn't a good plumbing practice in my opinion. Would you use a flare fitting on a gas line under a slab?


I wouldnt put a gas line under a slab.


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## Bayside500

plumbear said:


> I wouldnt put a gas line under a slab.


unless it was in a sleeve that was vented outside


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## RealLivePlumber

Gas company puts gas lines under slabs all the time. 

Roads, too, for that matter.

And bridges. 

And creeks and rivers.


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## plbgbiz

RealLivePlumber said:


> Gas company puts gas lines under slabs all the time.


That's scary....:001_unsure:

Here the utility doesn't install any piping in or under a building structure of any kind. There are some older homes that still have meters in the basement but they were built shortly after the turn of the previous century.

Under a street vs. under an occupied structure is apples and oranges.


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## plumbear

RealLivePlumber said:


> Gas company puts gas lines under slabs all the time.
> 
> Roads, too, for that matter.
> 
> And bridges.
> 
> And creeks and rivers.


Where do you live, Mexico?


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## gplumb

here are some pics of 2" k copper with flare fittings i put in this week, it in a park. i still have alittle more to go. i've never done this many flare fittings in one place, it sure is a pain work with this stuff. I will also be brazing later on. soldering under ground is not allowed here in chicago.


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## RealLivePlumber

plbgbiz said:


> That's scary....:001_unsure:
> 
> Here the utility doesn't install any piping in or under a building structure of any kind. There are some older homes that still have meters in the basement but they were built shortly after the turn of the previous century.
> 
> Under a street vs. under an occupied structure is apples and oranges.


I went back and reread, and may have misunderstood. We have mostly basements around here, and when we say a slab, we generally mean a driveway or sidewalk, not slab on grade construction. 

There is no gas under an building.


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