# Name that tankless violation



## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

So, it's been a while since I have posted any pics of tankless units.....hmmm, actually I don't think I have ever posted pics of a tankless job on this forum...bunch on CT. Anyhow, this is a simple resi-relocate. The interior was repiped....actually, it was repiped after I did the tankless. THis is in southern california which operated under the California Plumbing Code, which is just about an exact replica of the UPC. There were no local ammendements to speak of. The installation of the tankless code compliance falls under the manufactures reccommendations. Whenever installing one of these have a copy of the install manual ready for the inspector...makes things go quicker. Now, picturs of the new gas line I ran and the riser to the meter makeup are not part of this, nor is at all involved with this. Nothing you can't see is related to whether or not there is a code violation(s) or not in this job. THese pictures may or may not represent the final finished product.

And please.....Just having a little fun here, this is not a federal case. 

So good luck and look very closley!!!


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## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

Exhaust too close to window. Gas line improperly connected. " Get those fixed and I'll give you the rest of the list".:laughing:


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

WHO the heck insulated that


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## muck (Oct 10, 2008)

******* said:


> WHO the heck insulated that


 3 union guys


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

That looks like a Noritz unit. If so, the exhaust clearance from an outdoor mounted unit only needs to be greater then 1', according to their installation instructions. Takagi makes no distinction between an outdoor installation and a vent from an indoor installation, requiring 4' from either.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

muck said:


> 3 union guys



Looks that way,

I just fookin love the kendoff


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

What's wrong with the insulation? Looks fine to me.


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## muck (Oct 10, 2008)

service guy said:


> What's wrong with the insulation?


fine in my book

:wheelchair:


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

this is gonna be fun!!!


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

It's a code violation to run water lines in an outside wall, to run them outside has to be two times worse,


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> It's a code violation to run water lines in an outside wall, to run them outside has to be two times worse,


In southern Kalifornia I doubt that that particular item is of much concern.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Don't know anything about the UPC so I'm disadvantaged.

I see the gas line coming out of the ground in the 3rd pic but where is it coming from? Where is the meter/regulator?

Will the small window above the block window be permanately shut?

What kind of gas stop is that?

In the 3rd pic, ground level, below the elec panel, there are 3 lines coming out of the ground. The one on the left ells into the wall. What is this line? Are the other two lines connected and is either the water service? If so, where is the prv and house stop?


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> In southern Kalifornia I doubt that that particular item is of much concern.


 
KTS hasen't been out here recently. I have actually have had 2 green freaks ask me to do something similar to that.....free solar heating, no sh*t. Running pipe on the exterior is not a violation. There was no insulation on any of the pipe during inspection. I have never once seen or heard of an inspector asking about or requiring pipe insulation.
You guys understand I am right near the ocean.

Smells, the pipe on the right of that up-over-down is the service feed. I tapped that for my cold into my heater. the line that goes down below the grade is the cold feed for the house. I didn't build it...just tapped it.

The window.....hmmm, are we getting warmer?


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> Don't know anything about the UPC so I'm disadvantaged.
> 
> I see the gas line coming out of the ground in the 3rd pic but where is it coming from? Where is the meter/regulator? 38 feet off to the left. 1" pe to trans riser.
> 
> ...


No PRV - there is a ball valve for the main shutoff.


Added: my bad, the pipe comming down from the panel is the non-required conduit for bonding of the panel. it just stubs off and the bond wire goes to where it goes. the other pipe, is the existing gas line. It is sorta visible in the other pic...a few inches below the grade. Client didn't want to pay to have it raised.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

para1 said:


> Exhaust too close to window. Gas line improperly connected. " Get those fixed and I'll give you the rest of the list".:laughing:


 
please enlighten me on the rest of your list. :whistling2:


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Plumbus said:


> That looks like a Noritz unit. If so, the exhaust clearance from an outdoor mounted unit only needs to be greater then 1', according to their installation instructions. Takagi makes no distinction between an outdoor installation and a vent from an indoor installation, requiring 4' from either.


Tat's because TK are a piece of....eerrr never mind, I know alot of guys on here like them. Your remarks are just another of many "issues" with them. 



> That looks like a Noritz unit. If so, the exhaust clearance from an outdoor mounted unit only needs to be *greater *then 1', according to their installation instructions. hmmmmm


It is a Noritz 7.51 M O.D. Nat -Gas.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Will the operable window on top of the block window be utilized in any way as a forced air inlet?


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> Will the operable window on top of the block window be utilized in any way as a forced air inlet?


Are you asking if there will be a fan mounted on/in that window to feed a gas fired appliance...FAU...Dryer?


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Tankless said:


> Are you asking if there will be a fan mounted on/in that window to feed a gas fired appliance...FAU...Dryer?


That or possibly a window ac unit or even just a fan used to draw in fresh air? The problem with that is noone can acount for how someone might use an operable window in the future. I have to believe that the inspector would limit his judgement to what the window would be used for at the time of inspection. 

Having said that, if it is going to be utilized in any way as a forced air inlet then it would be a violation because of the distance rule.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> That or possibly a window ac unit or even just a fan used to draw in fresh air? The problem with that is noone can acount for how someone might use an operable window in the future. I have to believe that the inspector would limit his judgement to what the window would be used for at the time of inspection.
> 
> Having said that, if it is going to be utilized in any way as a forced air inlet then it would be a violation because of the distance rule.


 
I see where you are going with this and good thoughts however this is not a mechanical air inlet. At the time of inspection and currently, it is simply an openable window for a bathroom. It also does not constitute a non-mechanical air inlet. You are correct if it were mechanical. Nice try...:thumbsup:


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Ok, let me help you all out a little bit. The answer(s) are here:

http://www.noritz.com/u/n_0751m_od_installation_manual.pdf


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Ok then, I got nuttin'. I say it passes (except for the "no prv" which is more an issue with the entire house rather than the tankless install).

Gas line is properly sized and installed.

No venting issues that I can see.

Water looks to be properly sized.

Pressure relief valve is installed on the hot side.

I'm assuming the electrical is properly grounded although I wouldn't really know since I never touch it. I always sub the electrical out on my installs.

I don't see the remote temp controller but I'm assuming it simply hasn't been installed yet and wouldn't be a violation or limit performance even if it was not installed.

I say collect the check!


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Smells is close. The remote is installed. There is a reason I posted this particular installation. It is something that......I ain't gonna give it away.

Here's another hint. It passed as you see it, however there was a clear violation that the inspector called me out on. Mind you I had just gotten done explaining fire stopping and vent pipe clearences with him!! He signed off on it as is, but there is a violation(s).

Noritz units must have the wired remote installed in order for the unit to turn on and operate. The remotes are not waterproof, and must be installed in a WX proof enclouser or inside. Note the grey PVC elecytrical on the bottom of the runs, that is the remote line.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

The gas valve is on the wrong side of the union. I also don't see any sealant where the copper line enters the house.


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## A Good Plumber (Jun 18, 2008)

Marlin, You are right! You win!!! Buy him a beer.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Tankless said:


> Smells is close. The remote is installed. There is a reason I posted this particular installation. It is something that......I ain't gonna give it away.
> 
> Here's another hint. It passed as you see it, however there was a clear violation that the inspector called me out on. Mind you I had just gotten done explaining fire stopping and vent pipe clearences with him!! He signed off on it as is, but there is a violation(s).
> 
> Noritz units must have the wired remote installed in order for the unit to turn on and operate. The remotes are not waterproof, and must be installed in a WX proof enclouser or inside. Note the grey PVC elecytrical on the bottom of the runs, that is the remote line.


??? I have at least (1) 751 OD unit in service as we speak with no remote installed. I probably didn't sell it well enough (if they are installed at the unit I include it in the install price but if in another location I charge extra) but the ho didn't think he really needed it. I have been back several times for other work and all seems to be well. Do I need to revisit this? The unit definately runs and seems to be running properly. I always figured if there was ever a problem I could hook up a remote for diagnostic purposes to get the codes. I know that the 531 (which I've never installed) and the 631 do not come with remotes but are available optionally.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> ??? I have at least (1) 751 OD unit in service as we speak with no remote installed. I probably didn't sell it well enough (if they are installed at the unit I include it in the install price but if in another location I charge extra) but the ho didn't think he really needed it. I have been back several times for other work and all seems to be well. Do I need to revisit this? The unit definately runs and seems to be running properly. I always figured if there was ever a problem I could hook up a remote for diagnostic purposes to get the codes. I know that the 531 (which I've never installed) and the 631 do not come with remotes but are available optionally.


 
ummm, I think maybe the M versions require the remote, becasue the M stands for multiple (if memory serves) meaning you can hook up at least one addtl unit to it via the data cable but the remotes are required. I am aware of the other older units not having them but I have never installed a Noritz without a remote. Do you know the mdl # exactly?


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Marlin said:


> The gas valve is on the wrong side of the union. I also don't see any sealant where the copper line enters the house.


Damn, made me upload another pic. It's not in that pic becasue I still had to solder next to it, and I don't like melted pipe insulators.
I don't know who told you it was a violation to have the valve / union in that order, but there is no violation with that.

Pipe insulator:


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

A Good Plumber said:


> Marlin, You are right! You win!!! Buy him a beer.


 
It doesn't take much for me to buy anyone a beer, I'm ready to drink.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Tankless said:


> I don't know who told you it was a violation to have the valve / union in that order, but there is no violation with that.


Here in NY they want the gas valve before the union, I guess your code is different. I'd put it the other way around to make my life easier should I have to change it out and so that if someone decides they want to steal it they at least shut the gas off.The instructions for the unit also call for the valve before the union.
Other than that I'm stumped.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

You very well could be right. I have never experienced any issue with that. But now that you said it...it's gonna bug me. OK, Riser - union - gas inlet!!


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Tankless said:


> ummm, I think maybe the M versions require the remote, becasue the M stands for multiple (if memory serves) meaning you can hook up at least one addtl unit to it via the data cable but the remotes are required. I am aware of the other older units not having them but I have never installed a Noritz without a remote. Do you know the mdl # exactly?


N-0751M-OD installed 8/28/08.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

And the unit didn't come with a remote? Never seen that before. The ones I get all come with. It was always taught to install the remote. Maybe there is something I don't know about that.....I will call my guy tomorrow....maybe I'll txt him tonight

So have all you guys given up yet? I have the answer all ready!


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I'm no tankless guy but, the directions call for a thermal expansion tank if there is a backflow preventer on the cold supply to the house.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

THat would be any tankless - tanked - boiler heting equipment. There is no BF...these people don't even have a prv.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

OK I see. All our meter loops here are a dual check. I give up. Looks like a good install. I'm suprised Kalifornia doesn't make you you flex on the gas hookup due to earthquakes. Or even a seismic valve on the gas?


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> N-0751M-OD installed 8/28/08.


 
page 17 of the manual. It just tells the default temps should the remote become disconnected. I am awaiting a txt msg on what Noritz requires.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Or even a seismic valve on the gas? All new builds for the last decade or so are required to have auto shutoff valves. They are expensive.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Tankless said:


> And the unit didn't come with a remote? Never seen that before. The ones I get all come with. It was always taught to install the remote. Maybe there is something I don't know about that.....I will call my guy tomorrow....maybe I'll txt him tonight
> 
> So have all you guys given up yet? I have the answer all ready!


It came with the remote but the ho didn't want to pay to have it located inside and I didn't offer to put it in a box outside because although I'm perfectly willing to mount the unit outside, for some reason it just doesn't seem like a very good idea to me to locate the remote outside, so we just didn't install it and I wound up subsequently selling it as an option on a 631 install.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Tankless said:


> Or even a seismic valve on the gas? All new builds for the last decade or so are required to have auto shutoff valves. They are expensive.



I've never seen one.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Architects always spec em down here. I put em in. Guys I bid against don't. That pisses me off. Last one was 5 valves for a total of $2600 if memory serves me correctly.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> I've never seen one.


I put them in every now and then...SoCal Gas does aswell. Here is a pic of one.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

*Ok here it is*

So here is the answer you all failed to see. Clearences is very important. Not only to air inlet areas like Smells mentioned but for your own insurance. Permit / no permit - inspector / no inspector it is vital that all the rules of these things be taken seriously into account when planning an install. This basic rule is that important that they post it on the face of the unit. For outdoor installations it's all about combustables.....36" below anything that can burn. 24" in front of the heater (OD models) 6....that's right 6 inches on either side is required. This installation has violated that simple basic rule....and it was totally my fault. That is the only code compliance issue with this installation. The receptecal is GFCI protected in an approved outdoor INUSE (IT must be INUSE) enclouser.

There is a reason I put this one up...I knew most of you would instantly thing Oh look how close to the window he is...must be that. I had 2" left of clearence on the front 24" rule. I had 40" from the VENT TERMINATION (not the top of the heater but where the spent gasses exit the unit. That is labled V in the manual). I initially gave myself 9" from the right side. So in that respect the plumber did his job.

So as some/most of you will sub out the electrical...I do not. I work for a few electrical contractors and they will pull permits and inspect my work before inspection. I do it all ligit as I don't have my license yet. However I am considered a very proficent sparkey and often find myself in discussions with journeys about code and compliance. Anyhow, Me being the sparkey I chose to install the box / condit etc where I did. There were two permits for this job. One was electrical the other was the gas line, and the tankless installation. This installation very easily could have failed the PLUMBING and the electrical would have been fine. There was nothing out of compliance with respect to electrical...it was the tankless that was out of line. The inspector looked at me and said is this thing gonna melt when the unit is on? I reassured him it would not and explained the exhaust flow out of the unit. He was satisfied that there would not be a saftey issue and signed off. 

Point of this entire post was to give you all a little heads up at things you may now need to concern yourself with. You don't need to know about the branch circuits or proper grounded receptecal or any of that...but just becasue you did your job correctly doesn't mean the job is completed correctly. Sure you can nail the HO for more money for the hassel, and the sparkey will want more money to relocate and now you have a mess. A pissed off client who I'm sure was not too happy about shelling out thousands for this whole tankless setup that you may or may not have sold. Point is, the client is not happy. In this day in age, I don't know about you all but I treat my clients like friggen gold. I need them to trust in me, not only for this job but for the refferals and future paying jobs. Plumbing is half our job gentlemen. Thanks for playing alon...this was fun for me!!


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## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

A Good Plumber said:


> Marlin, You are right! You win!!! Buy him a beer.


 
*Wait a minute! I said the gas was improperly connected in my 1st and only post. Where's my cigar??*


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

I was waiting for your laundry list of all these other "violations". The gas was not improperly connected...boxers briefs. Where's the list Para?


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Although you can clearly see where it calls for 6" clearance to the side on the panel of the unit, I can't find any reference to any side clearance in the install manual. I am looking at pg. 6 "installation clearances" of the install manual and I see, in relation to the vent discharge of the unit, above, below, behind and in front of clearance requirements given but nothing to the side. In fact, the below clearance listed is 6" and your elec box looks to be much more than 6" below the bottom of the vent discharge. The panel does not seem to give any clearance distance for below the discharge. I wonder if this could be a misprint and it was supposed to read below rather than side?


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

If you look at page 7 of the install manual at items F and G, there is no limitation in relation to an inside or outside corner. I realize this is of concern with respect to exhaust gasses and not combustables but still, I don't really see a problem. The unit itself does not give off very much heat at all. The exhaust gasses are where the heat is located.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Well, it really doesn't matter. The name plate says sides, 6". If there is anything a.........steel wall that doesn't combust it is still a violation. You're talking about combustable clearence...vent termination clearence and name place clearence. Why the manu wants 6" from either side is IMO for ease of servicing and to keep chit away from the air intake vents. But I agree, they do not get really hot, just a good warm to hot.


Have a look at pg. 4 from here: http://www.noritz.com/u/products_files/n_0751m_od_owners_guide.pdf

This is again IMO one of those things that doesn't need to make sense to you or me...just have to follow what they for the sign off. Is the heater going to perform worse with 4" of side clerence? No, but the AHJ doesn't care about that. They make sure you are installing the unit to manu specs...the face place clerences count for that too. I get what your talking about...the only thing I can offer is below the 6" from the vent termination, is no longer a side clerence however maybe that distance now falls under clerence requirement that Noritz wants all on their own without respect to anything in the printed manual. Smells I can't tell you how many times that manual has been rewritten, and it's very subtle changes, not like a huge revision where they let everyone know. As dorkey as it sounds when I eat lunch...mainly in my truck because I really don't like other people near me I read these install manuals. I read the owners manual...so I can quickley refference things my client may consider usefull. I have been saying this for a few years on these boards...just read the manual. It's the tankless bible.

Anyhow, I'll see if Noritz has any brilliant answers for the below 6" side requirements.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

OK, I spoke to my boy just now. This is the guy who originally trained me and one of only a few top notch guys in this business....except all of you guys on here...harr harr harr!!

Here's the deal....A) it's a grey area and always has been.

The "requirements" are not the the name plate dimentions....those are a recommendations. The requirements are the combustable / air intakes/exhaust distances as found in the install manual. The owners manual is to let harry home owner not to install shelving right up next to the unit. He said Noritz designed it this way to keep people crap away from our heaters and to make our lives a little easier to service or rebuild them. So the clearences listed in the install manual is what the AHJ is to abide by...you just need to convince him of that. Should you find yourself in the rare situation like the install I posted, well hopefully we are all a little bit smarter. THat was the point of this entire thread. ANy questions?


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

I sold my sixth install since July this afternoon (yes I know, you've done at least 6 so far in December). Found a perfect little spot for an 751M-OD nesteled right in between the electric meter and a window. You can bet that after this discussion last night and this morning I checked my clearances VERY carefully! The wall is actually offset by about 4" where a carport was once converted to a garage. If I mount the unit just right I will have 7" clearance to the elec meter and 12" to the window. Like I said, perfect fit. This location gives me the shortest possible run for the water and electric as well as about 27' from the gas meter.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

To get back to the gas connection, Marlin made a good pickup on the shutoff valve and the union. The valve comes before the union in Ca. just like in NY. 

You also mentioned that you used a poly riser fitting. I'm guessing that the riser is showing at least 18" above ground level. If I'm right, that means the horizontal portion of the pipe has less then 18" of cover, which is required by code. 

From the picture, I'm guessing you have a 250cfh or 310cfh gas meter, which doesn't leave you much capacity after the tankless (200mbtu=200cfh) heater is taken into account.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Plumbus said:


> To get back to the gas connection, Marlin made a good pickup on the shutoff valve and the union. The valve comes before the union in Ca. just like in NY.
> 
> You also mentioned that you used a poly riser fitting. I'm guessing that the riser is showing at least 18" above ground level. If I'm right, that means the horizontal portion of the pipe has less then 18" of cover, which is required by code.
> 
> From the picture, I'm guessing you have a 250cfh or 310cfh gas meter, which doesn't leave you much capacity after the tankless (200mbtu=200cfh) heater is taken into account.


 
Well lets see, the pe transition riser is actually about 22" because the heater was mounted so low. Cannot backfill until it gets inspected. The gas meter you saw was from a totally different job. I inform all my clients after the installation the steps needed to get a proper size meter. The meters usually average 400-470 cfh depending on the tankless I install. 

As for the union / ball valve location I have never heard of a set code requirement for its placement. There very well may be one I have just never heard of it no have any inspectors in the last 4-5 years I have been installing these ever comment on that. Something as lame as this I seriously doubt would be a local ammendment or listed in CPC, but maybe i'm wrong. I'm not perfect, I'm damn good, but not perfect. If you can show me in writing that, that is wrong...it will never happen again. Until then I hope the thieves blow up trying to tear one off the wall.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

> If I mount the unit just right I will have 7" clearance to the elec meter and 12" to the window


Just an FYI, the rule reads "from an openable door or window". However as most windows are (meaning sliding open to the left or right XO or OX) 12" from the the point where air can pass through that window. situation: you have a 4' by 4' window. You are mounting an exterior tankless. Standing in front of the window the heater will be mounted on the right side. You need at least 6" regardless of how the window opens. Now, if the window opend from RIGHT to LEFT, than yes, you need at least 12", however if the window opens from LEFT to RIGHT, than you are still good with your 6". The only time the first method can become a question is close to bathroom windows which tend to be really small. Anyhow, glad you got another sold....if I had my way, tankless is all we would do. However there are alot of the old timmers and soon to be old timers that are anti tankless.....fine with me...more for you and I!!


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

> As for the union / ball valve location I have never heard of a set code requirement for its placement. There very well may be one I have just never heard of it no have any inspectors in the last 4-5 years I have been installing these ever comment on that. Something as lame as this I seriously doubt would be a local ammendment or listed in CPC, but maybe i'm wrong. I'm not perfect, I'm damn good, but not perfect. If you can show me in writing that, that is wrong...it will never happen again.


The valve before the union is a practical matter. The whole point of placing a valve at the appliance is to have a shutoff point in direct proximity when the unit needs replacing, so the whole gas system doesn't need to be shut down. When the valve is placed after the union it's utility (the ability to remove the heater after the gas valve is closed) is negated. Same applies with water lines, valve first then union.


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## cowserj (Aug 14, 2009)

Plumbus said:


> The valve before the union is a practical matter. The whole point of placing a valve at the appliance is to have a shutoff point in direct proximity when the unit needs replacing, so the whole gas system doesn't need to be shut down. When the valve is placed after the union it's utility (the ability to remove the heater after the gas valve is closed) is negated. Same applies with water lines, valve first then union.


In Texas We go by the IFGC and it is a written code IFGC 409.5 "The shutoff valve shall be located in the same room as the appliance, not further than 6 feet from the appliance, and shall be installed upstream from the union connector or quick disconnect device it serves."


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## gladerunner (Jan 24, 2009)

I thought the mistake was that it's a tankless install and should be a tank


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

gladerunner said:


> I thought the mistake was that it's a tankless install and should be a tank


 
I chuckled. Thanks


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