# Some Customers



## seagixxer (Sep 19, 2015)

So I'm just looking for some input.

I recently put 2 wall hung water heaters in a commercial kitchen.I said that it would be more than enough hot water.Irt seems to be not one sink has a flow restrictor on it and when to many fixtures are running he loses pressure.Long story short i suggested we put in another 50 gal commercial heater in to help with the demand.I said i will eat any additional labor but he needs to buy heater for additional 2k.. And then he has a hissy fit because i said he would have plenty of hot water.


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## seagixxer (Sep 19, 2015)

This is coming from same guy when i plumbed his house and asked the carpenter to patch in roof vent flanges,he got pissed i cut a hole in roof ,then told me if it leaks i should be responsible.


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## Qplumb (Dec 19, 2015)

Is he running out of hot water or just losing pressure when too many fixtures are running?


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## fixitright (Jan 5, 2012)

Why would you work for him again?

Fool me once .......


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## Paul4813 (Nov 28, 2015)

Too many fixtures on without flow restrictors will cause a loss of flow, naturally. Is this problem only on the hot side? If he's not getting hot water due to large flow, what are the gpm's for each tankless?


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## Workhorseplmg (Apr 10, 2013)

What size water lines to and from each tankless?


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

It is your fault. 3 bays, prep sinks, pretty much anything besides hand sinks in a commercial kitchen won't have flow restrictors on them. You should have checked what he had and sized accordingly. 
I've never seen even a small commercial kitchen run properly off of two tankless heaters. Some can get away with 3. Last one I did was engineered for 5 and even then they get a small pressure drop at peak times.
If I was him, I'd be pissed at you too.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Wall hung water heater? Are we talking about tankless or point of use instahots


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

What is a roof vent flange?


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## moz (Aug 4, 2012)

seagixxer said:


> This is coming from same guy when i plumbed his house and asked the carpenter to patch in roof vent flanges,he got pissed i cut a hole in roof ,then told me if it leaks i should be responsible.


Same goes here, a lot of roofing guys won't warranty any penetrations not done by them. Fair enough, I wouldn't warranty someone else's work either.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

bct p&h said:


> It is your fault. 3 bays, prep sinks, pretty much anything besides hand sinks in a commercial kitchen won't have flow restrictors on them. You should have checked what he had and sized accordingly.
> I've never seen even a small commercial kitchen run properly off of two tankless heaters. Some can get away with 3. Last one I did was engineered for 5 and even then they get a small pressure drop at peak times.
> If I was him, I'd be pissed at you too.



So you told him that he would have plenty of hot water in a restaurant with 2 tankless heaters?? Now you are gonna install a commerical tank type heater to rescue him..??? I guess that their was enough room to just do the tank type in the first place...???.. 

so which one of you is the tankless lover..?? was it you or him?? 

Whose brain-child was the tankless heaters in a large restaurant in the first place??? Of course you are the professional and he is just the hash slinger.... so its probably gonna fall on you....

I suggest you go big ion the commercial heater and tear out the tankless units before they break down... 

wait till those 2 tankless units got to be de-limed someday soon and watch this guy go ape-shi/

now you are in it deep......


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

seagixxer said:


> So I'm just looking for some input. I recently put 2 wall hung water heaters in a commercial kitchen.I said that it would be more than enough hot water.Irt seems to be not one sink has a flow restrictor on it and when to many fixtures are running he loses pressure.Long story short i suggested we put in another 50 gal commercial heater in to help with the demand.I said i will eat any additional labor but he needs to buy heater for additional 2k.. And then he has a hissy fit because i said he would have plenty of hot water.


SG, you own it. Your customer had a reasonable expectation for a viable system to meet his needs. Put it in the "live and learn" category. You have three choices.

1. Pay thousands out of your own pocket to make the system right.
2. Lose a customer and suffer bad PR from him.
3. Possibly a combination of both.

You already knew this was your fault before bringing it up on the forum. Your real mistake though was not owning up to it from the beginning. He will never forget that you were ready and willing to have HIM pay $2K+/- for YOUR mistake. Plus saddle him with the ongoing expense of maintaining a faulty system.

Basically you screwed yourself on this one.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

seagixxer said:


> This is coming from same guy when i plumbed his house and asked the carpenter to patch in roof vent flanges,he got pissed i cut a hole in roof ,then told me if it leaks i should be responsible.


You needed a carpenter to repair roof penetrations?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

This would help...


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

The past situation has nothing to do with the present situation. IF you guaranteed him it would work, than you need to make it work. But don't guess. And don't throw some silly solution at it just to make him go away. Have a rep or someone like that help if needed.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> SG, you own it. Your customer had a reasonable expectation for a viable system to meet his needs. Put it in the "live and learn" category. You have three choices.
> 
> 1. Pay thousands out of your own pocket to make the system right.
> 2. Lose a customer and suffer bad PR from him.
> ...







I totally agree with your assessment here PLBZ.. this guy is screwed on this one and has painted himself into a corner..... 

Either take it in the ass like a man and make it right or move on with your tail between your legs and let someone else re-do the whole mess.... Chalk if off as a learning experience....


I know of a tankless in a little breakfast joint that constantly needs to be de-limed.... its just one Rheem unit and they have absolutely no room to install anything better.. and no room for a water softener either... The guy that designed the place was probably an architect who did not know his ass from a hole in the ground..........

every few years I get a call from a new manager of the place wanting to know what they can do to make it work properly......

we could probably install a short residential 50 gallon power vent *brad white* We would probably have to build a platform or a shelf out of unistrut about a foot above the mop sink faucet and tear out the tankles unit sitting there and it would work work for them but they dont want to spend 4000 to do this.... 

They would have to watch not to bump their foreheads when they turn on the mop sink faucet but it would work...

.just trying to do what I can with what I got to work with.....






.


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## Nathan901 (Feb 11, 2012)

In some locations where not having hot water is grounds for a major fine, or even flat out being shutdown, like in a restaurant, I wouldn't even think about installing a tankless.

The only time I usually say to a customer that a tankless is a viable option, is in a residence and if they have lp/city gas. I'll never install an electric tankless aside from the obvious point of use under a hand sink. 

Just last month we ripped out an entire tankless system in a nursing home that was three years old and replaced them with two high recovery 100 gallon heaters and they couldn't be happier. 
20,000 dollars later. 

All in all if the system can't keep up with the demand, unfortunately it falls directly onto your shoulders. Your customer hired you to come up and install a system to meet his needs.


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## Workhorseplmg (Apr 10, 2013)

I know of a system in some efficiency apartments that have a total of 5 tankless heaters with 3 storage tanks that's been in 10 yrs working great. It's a total of 32 units. But everything has flow restrictors on.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

just hope the customer doesnt dial 1 800 lawyer..and hold you responsible for all the damages including lost revenue from a bad install along with what it will cost to fix it correctly....its time to be honest with the customer and a little humble pie goes a long way..we all make mistakes..how we fix them shows what kind of company and man you are...even if you lose some $$ ..and get it going correct..you stood behind your work, that could pay off long term..if you walk away and screw him..it could cost more than you will know...


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Stretching your boundaries is always risky and quite often expensive.

Look at it as "college tuition" because you gonna pay: 1) rip the units out and install correct ones and 2) don't do business with that guys again. Please.


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## seagixxer (Sep 19, 2015)

Ok i understand i made a mistake.I have No problem taking the units out and installing one big cyclone which was up there.But i charged him 2k plus material.So if i was to put a 100 gallon heater back in there from the start it would have cost him a lot more than that to begin with.And there no way i can get it back into the same spot .it was put in before they built the restaurant.


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## seagixxer (Sep 19, 2015)

And i said the roofer installed the flange


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## Roto-Rooter (Jan 31, 2015)

seagixxer said:


> Ok i understand i made a mistake.I have No problem taking the units out and installing one big cyclone which was up there.But i charged him 2k plus material.So if i was to put a 100 gallon heater back in there from the start it would have cost him a lot more than that to begin with.And there no way i can get it back into the same spot .it was put in before they built the restaurant.


You ask for input!!!!!!! Glad I don't do plumbing, just sewer and drain cleaning.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

seagixxer said:


> Ok i understand i made a mistake.I have No problem taking the units out and installing one big cyclone which was up there.But i charged him 2k plus material.So if i was to put a 100 gallon heater back in there from the start it would have cost him a lot more than that to begin with.And there no way i can get it back into the same spot .it was put in before they built the restaurant.


I said install correct tankless.

Contact the manufacturer of the ones you put in and tell them what happened and ask them for a solution. Don't go on a ramble, just state the facts and ask what you can do or which units are better.

Sell the old ones on Ebay.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

seagixxer said:


> Ok i understand i made a mistake.I have No problem taking the units out and installing one big cyclone which was up there.But i charged him 2k plus material.So if i was to put a 100 gallon heater back in there from the start it would have cost him a lot more than that to begin with.And there no way i can get it back into the same spot .it was put in before they built the restaurant.


well.... I am really sorry about this mess you are presently in.

I would not wish this kind of trouble on even my worst--- most evil past employee. (actually I probably would smile with glee if it happened to one of them) :thumbup::thumbup:



I guess your only hope is who insisted on the tankless heaters in the first place..... did the customer want them or did you push this on them...??? 

I suppose you could just install that heater and eat it, as long as it fits...



good luck 



.


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## Blackhawk (Jul 23, 2014)

1. It is your job to properly size the size to meet peak demands. It is simple math (peak GPMs, versus maximum flow rate per unit at highest Delta-T.

2. You cannot install a rood flashing? I believe that is what you meant by "flange."

This seems like you do not set expectations with you clients from the start. If the roof is too steep and you dont want to flash the vent stack you know you must install, it is on you to inform the client they will need a roofer/carpenter before you have them sign on the dotted line.

You mis-sized the solution you "engineered" for his needs, time to own it and fix it on your $$$


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## Blackhawk (Jul 23, 2014)

Also some newer tankless units come with a variety of flow restrictors built into the unit (so the client cannot exceed it output). I use navien units, they all come with a pack of small plastic flow restrictors, they vary in what the unit will allow to flow through it. Maybe try installing higher flow restrictors if they have them?

That would solve a volume issue, but if they are not getting enough hot water then you are S O L.


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## Nathan901 (Feb 11, 2012)

Is there enough space just add a third heater? If that isn't enough to make it up then their demand is too high for tankless heaters.


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## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

Before you go slapping a tank in, you need to talk to the rep or the engineer.

You will add volume, but if you add the tank after the tankless...well...a lot of tankless measure the temp of the incoming water and then use an internal valve to restrict the flow to what they can manage so they can hit the desired outlet temp.

Hypothetically, you may be able to get by with a standby tank (no heating elements) in front of the the tankless that will temper the water with the ambient building heat. Of course that can be a problem with bacteria and such.

Ergo, get an engineer involved.

Or, better yet the rep/technical support for the product you have already installed. They have a certain amount of skin in the game too. They want their product to be a part of the solution. They don't want it to look like their product is under performing when it was really a design issue and not an issue with their product.

--Will


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## myakka (Jun 15, 2011)

The smallest system we have put in for a commercial kitchen has 3 tankless heaters. Talk to your product rep.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plbgbiz said:


> SG, you own it. Your customer had a reasonable expectation for a viable system to meet his needs. Put it in the "live and learn" category. You have three choices.
> 
> 1. Pay thousands out of your own pocket to make the system right.
> 2. Lose a customer and suffer bad PR from him.
> ...





seagixxer said:


> So I'm just looking for some input.
> 
> I recently put 2 wall hung water heaters in a commercial kitchen.I said that it would be more than enough hot water.Irt seems to be not one sink has a flow restrictor on it and when to many fixtures are running he loses pressure.Long story short i suggested we put in another 50 gal commercial heater in to help with the demand.I said i will eat any additional labor but he needs to buy heater for additional 2k.. And then he has a hissy fit because i said he would have plenty of hot water.


Yea you have really screwed the pooch on this catastrophie,if you can't find flow restricters for faucets,can yotun the stops down to throttle down the flow???i would try anything before I lost money on this,if stops are not on the faucets add them at your expense,it might work:laughing:


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## Workhorseplmg (Apr 10, 2013)

I'm sure he will accept a trickle of hot water at every faucet


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## Nathan901 (Feb 11, 2012)

Yea! Take it or leave it!


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## seagixxer (Sep 19, 2015)

*Did the right thing*

So i took it on the chin and rectified the problem.He asked me to give him an estimate on a 10 unit apt building that i have been anticipating for the past year.I give him estate with all fixtures included,he tells me thats to much and he's going to shop it around.Probably going to show my estimate and see what he can dnly thing that bothers me is that i added 10 because i knew he would beat me down and he didn't even try.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

seagixxer said:


> So i took it on the chin and rectified the problem.He asked me to give him an estimate on a 10 unit apt building that i have been anticipating for the past year.I give him estate with all fixtures included,he tells me thats to much and he's going to shop it around.Probably going to show my estimate and see what he can dnly thing that bothers me is that i added 10 because i knew he would beat me down and he didn't even try.


Hopefully it will work out.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

seagixxer said:


> Ok i understand i made a mistake.I have No problem taking the units out and installing one big cyclone which was up there.But i charged him 2k plus material.So if i was to put a 100 gallon heater back in there from the start it would have cost him a lot more than that to begin with.And there no way i can get it back into the same spot .it was put in before they built the restaurant.


 if you figured profit margin correctly and profit on labor correctly you should have enough to pay for another heater and walk away with a happy costumer and breaking even. Feel lucky and take it as a lesson.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

seagixxer said:


> So i took it on the chin and rectified the problem.He asked me to give him an estimate on a 10 unit apt building that i have been anticipating for the past year.I give him estate with all fixtures included,he tells me thats to much and he's going to shop it around.Probably going to show my estimate and see what he can dnly thing that bothers me is that i added 10 because i knew he would beat me down and he didn't even try.


During the worse of the Greatest Recession, I worked for food. My price was so low, bottom feeders I never knew existed used and abused me. 

The day I raised the price, they fell away like roaches from light. A few messed with me afterwards, but I've been down this road 3-4 times and it got straightened out in my favor. 

Almost every reply in this thread told you to run like hell after resolving it. Do it. Run, boy, run.....


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