# Stealing work



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

One of my daughters called for plumbing info. She had a plumber come out on a home warranty call to check out a low water pressure issue. She was asking about his quote for a repipe. I ask her if he was licensed and insured? No, he is a journeyman plumber she says. I told her not to let him work on the house if he was not a licensed contractor. I told her his price was too low. Then she tells me that he was going to do the job on Sat., instead of going through the co. he works for as a side job. Guess who is getting a call in the morning.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

SlickRick said:


> One of my daughters called for plumbing info. She had a plumber come out on a home warranty call to check out a low water pressure issue. She was asking about his quote for a repipe. I ask her if he was licensed and insured? No, he is a journeyman plumber she says. I told her not to let him work on the house if he was not a licensed contractor. I told her his price was too low. Then she tells me that he was going to do the job on Sat., instead of going through the co. he works for as a side job. Guess who is getting a call in the morning.


 



Maybe you can pull the permit for him.......:laughing:


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

Lemme guess, the company he works for.


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## Jammyrft (Jan 24, 2011)

if it's a warranty job is it safe to assume it's a new house? if so they whats the need for the repipe? what's the water pressure coming into the house before the PRV? and what's the pressure drop at the furthest fixture?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

You win PP. I tried to call as soon as I got off the phone with her. She said "Dad, don't do that, he is going to try to get me a new WH."


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

Also with warranty work, don't they want proof of insurance and licensing info?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Jammyrft said:


> if it's a warranty job is it safe to assume it's a new house? if so they whats the need for the repipe? what's the water pressure coming into the house before the PRV? and what's the pressure drop at the furthest fixture?


Not a new house. the warranty was furnished by the seller as part of the deal. Even though it hasn't payed a dime on a issue yet.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

SlickRick said:


> You win PP. I tried to call as soon as I got off the phone with her. She said "Dad, don't do that, he is going to try to get me a new WH."


Make the call Rick, I'll send her a water heater.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> Make the call Rick, I'll send her a water heater.


You can bet I will make the call, I got the answering machine tonight.


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## 3KP (Jun 19, 2008)

Some warranty companies require it. Some out ther don't care... One I use to work for didn't care! I quit them and they hire a Guy I knew for a fact that he wasn't licensed.. I turned them both into state and of course nothing happened!


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## bkplumber (Jan 24, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> Make the call Rick, I'll send her a water heater.


Makes you wonder what's the point to renu licenseew o


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Go get 'em QuickSlickRick :laughing: Your daughter must live out of town I presume? :whistling2:


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Lets see, company advertises, buys the trucks and building, gets the calls, hired help goes out and lands himself an instant repipe side project. Boss will love that.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

mpsllc said:


> Lets see, company advertises, buys the trucks and building, gets the calls, hired help goes out and lands himself an instant repipe side project. Boss will love that.



3 years in California state prison if you pull that crap here.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

plumbpro said:


> Also with warranty work, don't they want proof of insurance and licensing info?


Not in Texas, I see unlicensed guys working on water heaters daily. 

Waste of time to turn them into the Texas Plumbing Board. The Board only fines licensed plumbers. If you are un licensed then it's open season on the homeowners.......

Thanks Lisa Hill......


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*Sounds like my old employees*

go get this fellow....... but dont give him any squirm room
to weasel out of the hole he has dug for himself.

What you should do is wait till FIRDAY afternoon to
 call his employer..... by then he would have already 
STOLEN a water heater from his employer...


I am 100% sure that is the plan....his employer probably trusts him
he probably drives a company truck..
.......

tell them to catch him red-handed on the job first thing sat morning
with that stolen heater.......

this way they can fire him with no issues from the un-employment board ..


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## bkplumber (Jan 24, 2011)

That's the kind of veal I'm talking about we can't compete with their prices. Home owners want to save money so they hire the jack legs. I wish I was an inspector I would hand out at supply houses and bust their tails.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

3KP said:


> Some warranty companies require it. Some out ther don't care... One I use to work for didn't care! I quit them and they hire a Guy I knew for a fact that he wasn't licensed.. I turned them both into state and of course nothing happened!


This guy is a journeyman that was sent out by a plumbing company in Tyler. Where was he going to get the WH? from the plumbing company he works for?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Pipe Rat said:


> Go get 'em QuickSlickRick :laughing: Your daughter must live out of town I presume? :whistling2:


She lives in another town 15 mi. from here. I will give them free advise, other than that, call a plumber.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I called the owner of the co. He said the plumber was a relative that had been with him for 5 yrs, and there is no way he would do that. OK :whistling2:

I had a guy with me for 12 yrs, that I treated like a king do it to me.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

SlickRick said:


> I called the owner of the co. He said the plumber was a relative that had been with him for 5 yrs, and there is no way he would do that. OK :whistling2:
> 
> I had a guy with me for 12 yrs, that I treated like a king do it to me.


So, why else would you have called him out of the clear blue sky? 

How does he explain that..... People are idiots. Don't let your daughter let him back in her house. He's pissed now.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I found out that two guy's that did it to me by someone calling me. When I confronted them it was, " Rickey, how long have I been with you?, I wouldn't do that." I said, " Well, evidamndintley you did, the customer has your card". That was the end of that.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

If I worked for someone else, I would never cross that line. I had customers ask "oh do you do side work". I would say I don't take work away from the guy that feeds my family. I can't believe people would take side work when you send them on an outcall. They don't have the overhead so their price can be half yours, and you're the big evil contractor making loads of money off your customers.

Those are also the first employees wondering what happened when they get laid off because there isn't any work.


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## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

When I was still working for Doug, a man I have immeasurable respect for, several of the real estate investors we were working for approached me about doing work, "on the side".....

I said no of course, and ratted em' right out to the boss. He asked why I didn't take it since we had been slow and he hadn't been able to keep me full time.

I told him I want to go back to full time and stabbing him in the back wasn't going to make that happen any sooner.


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## Sylvain (Jan 22, 2011)

SlickRick said:


> This guy is a journeyman that was sent out by a plumbing company in Tyler. Where was he going to get the WH? from the plumbing company he works for?


What is a journeyman plumber ?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Sylvain said:


> What is a journeyman plumber ?


 
In Texas a licensed journeyman plumber is allowed to perform work without direct supervision of a licensed master plumber, who essentially has the business license.


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## HuskyMurph (Dec 13, 2010)

ive walked out on jobs like that. someone try's to slip you some cash. i packed up and left before i did any work. i didnt want my boss even suspecting. hoped in the truck called the boss. side note i do do side jobs i love em. but wouldnt take em from my company.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

HuskyMurph said:


> ive walked out on jobs like that. someone try's to slip you some cash. i packed up and left before i did any work. i didnt want my boss even suspecting. hoped in the truck called the boss. side note i do do side jobs i love em. but wouldnt take em from my company.


 :laughing:


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## HuskyMurph (Dec 13, 2010)

i do do that alot. i always do do when i get home and once in the morning after coffee is the worst do do


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## plumr-n-tx (Jan 18, 2011)

Husky, 
When you do do a side job, even if it isn't from who you are working for, you've taken it away from a ligitimate business with all the overhead that goes with it. Now some other journeyman out there is taking work away from your boss. It's thinking like yours that will have you wondering one day why your work has slowed down and you can't get your hours in.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

*stealing work*

I have people asking me if I do side work all of the time. Some I play with others I offer a very loud no and inform that I am not pleased that they would think I would steal from my company and the people I work with  the others I give them a price much higher than I have given them to do the job for our company. They look at me and say that is higher than a plumber I say dah.


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

plumr-n-tx said:


> Husky,
> When you do do a side job, even if it isn't from who you are working for, you've taken it away from a ligitimate business with all the overhead that goes with it. Now some other journeyman out there is taking work away from your boss. It's thinking like yours that will have you wondering one day why your work has slowed down and you can't get your hours in.


Or, he's taken it out of the hands of handy manny off the curb at home depot. I do side jobs a lot (almost daily.) my boss knows about all the work I do on the side, but, he doesn't care as long as they are my customers. I would never steal work from my boss and he knows that. Hell, if I get a job too big for me to handle I give it to him. There are too many "other guys" Side job customers would call instead of a real plumber.


Edit: without side work how do people start-up a customer base?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

504Plumber said:


> Or, he's taken it out of the hands of handy manny off the curb at home depot. I do side jobs a lot (almost daily.) my boss knows about all the work I do on the side, but, he doesn't care as long as they are my customers. I would never steal work from my boss and he knows that. Hell, if I get a job too big for me to handle I give it to him. There are too many "other guys" Side job customers would call instead of a real plumber.
> 
> 
> Edit: without side work how do people start-up a customer base?


What are the requirements for performing plumbing work for the public in La.?


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

SlickRick said:


> What are the requirements for performing plumbing work for the public in La.?


To get your journeyman card? 

5 years as a helper or 8000 hrs and to pass the test. Also have to get three journeyman or master plumbers to sign off for you to take the test.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

504Plumber said:


> To get your journeyman card?
> 
> 5 years as a helper or 8000 hrs and to pass the test.


No, to go out and contract for plumbing work. like you are doing "on the side".


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

SlickRick said:


> No, to go out and contract for plumbing work. like you are doing "on the side".



You can do all work a master plumber can do, we just can't file, therefore any work that needs to be filed I do not do. My bread and butter on the side is faucet repair, toilet repair and other small jobs.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

504Plumber said:


> You can do all work a master plumber can do, we just can't file, therefore any work that needs to be filed I do not do. My bread and butter on the side is faucet repair, toilet repair and other small jobs.


Correction, you can do all the work a master can do, you can't pull a permit. They make it that way because a journeyman cannot do work on his own. In other words, a journeyman can only work for a master plumber. When a faucet supply blows apart because of excessive pressure, the master plumber and his insurance is responsible. If the home owner files a claim against plumbing work you have performed, the insurance company is going to come down on you and the state. The state says you are performing work ilegally, so the insurance company wins a judgement against you for 100k.


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

plumbpro said:


> Correction, you can do all the work a master can do, you can't pull a permit. They make it that way because a journeyman cannot do work on his own. In other words, a journeyman can only work for a master plumber. When a faucet supply blows apart because of excessive pressure, the master plumber and his insurance is responsible. If the home owner files a claim against plumbing work you have performed, the insurance company is going to come down on you and the state. The state says you are performing work ilegally, so the insurance company wins a judgement against you for 100k.


You can own and operate with a journeyman card here.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

If you can own and operate with a J card, why can't you pull permits?


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

plumbpro said:


> If you can own and operate with a J card, why can't you pull permits?


More incentive to get masters? Not sure really. Technically here, as soon as you pass your journeyman test you can take the masters test, have to hold 100k liability insurance to keep it active.


I take it you are opposed to people doing side work?


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

504Plumber said:


> My bread and butter on the side is faucet repair, toilet repair and other small jobs.



So is mine, but it's on the clock for my licensed boss. You wanna play the game, get your license, start advertising, then come back and complain how hard it is out there. If you have time for side work, you aren't working hard enough during the day.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

504Plumber said:


> Edit: without side work how do people start-up a customer base?


You could do what I and a lot of folks here did. Go out and find your own customers after you've left your former employer in good standing. Advertise, hit the streets, get the word out. If you steal from your boss, you have no ground to stand on when somebody does it to you.







Paul


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## mialle30 (May 10, 2010)

In CA you do not need a license if the job is under $500 materials included even if the H/O furnishes the them. For minor repairs I don't see a problem with a journeyman doing that kind of work as long as he can be held accountable. It is better than having a handyman or some other jackass do it. As for the repipe that is a different story. There is no accountability or liability for the journeyman in question or any recourse for the H/O if the shiz hits the fan down the road. I think that every state should not only fine and penalize those who work without a license but also the H/O. This would help even the playing field between licensed and unlicensed contractors. Contractors have a lot going against them, the laws always protect the H/O first and foremost.


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## kellybhutchings (Jul 29, 2008)

I know of three unlicensed people busted around mt. pleasant by the texas state board. One was a guy building 2 story apartments and did the plumbing his self. He had no water and two 3 inch stub outs for 8 apartments. I heard the state fined him 5000.00, made him dig it all out, and hire a licensed plumber.


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

rocksteady said:


> You could do what I and a lot of folks here did. Go out and find your own customers after you've left your former employer in good standing. Advertise, hit the streets, get the word out. If you steal from your boss, you have no ground to stand on when somebody does it to you.
> 
> Paul


Said it before and say it again, I do not steal customers from my boss. All of my customers are word of mouth from family friends and referrals of past customers.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

504Plumber said:


> More incentive to get masters? Not sure really. Technically here, as soon as you pass your journeyman test you can take the masters test, have to hold 100k liability insurance to keep it active.
> 
> 
> I take it you are opposed to people doing side work?


Most companies would fire you for such things.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

504Plumber said:


> Said it before and say it again, I do not steal customers from my boss. All of my customers are word of mouth from family friends and referrals of past customers.


What if the shoe were on the other foot? .........


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

I will say this what if you replace a couple of supply lines on a lav. The ho thank you and pay you, you 50 bucks, oh happy day. The ho then leave for their annual 2 week vacation, the supply line, you provided and installed leak, the boss will be happy you used that one. Now, this leak continues for two weeks and causes 100,000 dollars in damage. 

Now lets do the math.

Lawyer fees 10,000
Got fired from job 40,000 annually
The damages to house and property 100,000

This very profitable side job just cost you $149,950.00
Not bad for a 10 min job.


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## HuskyMurph (Dec 13, 2010)

plumr-n-tx said:


> Husky,
> When you do do a side job, even if it isn't from who you are working for, you've taken it away from a ligitimate business with all the overhead that goes with it. Now some other journeyman out there is taking work away from your boss. It's thinking like yours that will have you wondering one day why your work has slowed down and you can't get your hours in.


 Thats a good point. if my work slows ill do even more side jobs. theres know tracing. my customers are family friends and word of mouth. i would never take the customers from my boss they are all uptight rich folk. there isnt a plumber on here thats never done side work. you get sick making hourly wage for what you can do 2 to 3 times on the side. thanks sir also i am taking work from handyman. maybe i shouldnt take from handyman cause id get call to fix later on.


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## HuskyMurph (Dec 13, 2010)

504Plumber said:


> Or, he's taken it out of the hands of handy manny off the curb at home depot. I do side jobs a lot (almost daily.) my boss knows about all the work I do on the side, but, he doesn't care as long as they are my customers. I would never steal work from my boss and he knows that. Hell, if I get a job too big for me to handle I give it to him. There are too many "other guys" Side job customers would call instead of a real plumber.
> 
> 
> Edit: without side work how do people start-up a customer base?


 let me get a huge BINGO. ive done that to i guy i use to be a custodian for in highschool. wanted me to plumb his new building with a year of expiernce. So i did it but it was though my plumbing company. the boss got the bid i got hourly and expeirence


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

HuskyMurph said:


> Thats a good point. if my work slows ill do even more side jobs. theres know tracing. my customers are family friends and word of mouth. i would never take the customers from my boss they are all uptight rich folk. there isnt a plumber on here thats never done side work. you get sick making hourly wage for what you can do 2 to 3 times on the side. thanks sir also i am taking work from handyman. maybe i shouldnt take from handyman cause id get call to fix later on.


 
That's where you are wrong.


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## HuskyMurph (Dec 13, 2010)

easttexasplumb said:


> I will say this what if you replace a couple of supply lines on a lav. The ho thank you and pay you, you 50 bucks, oh happy day. The ho then leave for their annual 2 week vacation, the supply line, you provided and installed leak, the boss will be happy you used that one. Now, this leak continues for two weeks and causes 100,000 dollars in damage.
> 
> Now lets do the math.
> 
> ...


 good point. dont leave a paper trail. really who leaves a leak. i check and check andcheck. before i walk out i check again. so your saying you have never done a side job???? you must own acompany. How about when you were a apprentice??? first year or 2 journeyman. .......^ thats why i pick and choose. i dont touch any rentals.


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## HuskyMurph (Dec 13, 2010)

SlickRick said:


> That's where you are wrong.[/QUOT
> i respect you on here alot your a very informative plumber. your saying you never did a job for your folks, grandma, old lady next door. when you were a apprentice before you owned a company. maybe thats how they did it back in the day. not these days. people love money. side jobs are cash and they buy the big stuff i need for my house. dishwasher. water heater, furnace. my hourly pays mortgage and bills and rest goes to savings


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

HuskyMurph said:


> SlickRick said:
> 
> 
> > That's where you are wrong.[/QUOT
> ...


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

plumbpro said:


> Most companies would fire you for such things.


Well my boss right now encourages me to do side work, he's done it in the past. Have to feed the family and pay the bills somehow.


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## HuskyMurph (Dec 13, 2010)

if i know someone that can do work i need done. if they'll do it on the side or trade labor ill do it. if not ill pay full price. in this day and age you have to do whatever you can and SAVE. the company ya work for today may not be there tomrrow.... fiest or fammin. take it while its there cause it may not be there later.
anywho new topic.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

HuskyMurph said:


> if i know someone that can do work i need done. if they'll do it on the side or trade labor ill do it. if not ill pay full price. in this day and age you have to do whatever you can and SAVE. the company ya work for today may not be there tomrrow.... fiest or fammin. take it while its there cause it may not be there later.
> anywho new topic.


 
Maybe sooner rather than later if you keep side-jobbing. There goes any benefits package when you lose your job. What's the difference between side jobbing without the proper licenses your state requires to run a shop and a handyman? In both cases, you're taking work from properly licensed and insured companies. Hurting the trade and devaluing what we all do for a living.






Paul


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

easttexasplumb said:


> I will say this what if you replace a couple of supply lines on a lav. The ho thank you and pay you, you 50 bucks, oh happy day. The ho then leave for their annual 2 week vacation, the supply line, you provided and installed leak, the boss will be happy you used that one. Now, this leak continues for two weeks and causes 100,000 dollars in damage.
> 
> Now lets do the math.
> 
> ...


Ah, well said. The exact point I was trying to make earlier. The plumbing board is not liable because he is not authorized to do work on his own. His boss is not liable because he didn't authorize the work, or even know about it. He is the only liable party, assuming he has no insurance.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

As an apprentice I did a few side jobs for friends, with the blessing of my boss. I rarely got paid anything above the cost of materials. To start a business all you need is very low personal expenses, effective advertising, and a need to fill. I started my business with the blessing of my boss at the time. He is planning on moving, and I have to make a living. He still needs me sometimes so I do my own thing and when he calls for help I work it in to my schedule. I get paid as an independent contractor working under my own license and insurance. 
504, if your boss knows you are side jobbing and has no problem with it, I don't have a problem with it either. 
When I went out on my own I had 0 customers. I advertised heavily, networked, business cards everywhere. Some of my bosses customers for service are using me now. I didn't angle to get them, they just found out one way or another I had started my own company and started to use me because the liked me better. I gave already gotten a lot of referral work, but I didn't have for the first several months. I am not working full time now most weeks, but I have no debt and low expenses (personal) and save money just for times like these.


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

plumbpro said:


> As an apprentice I did a few side jobs for friends, with the blessing of my boss. I rarely got paid anything above the cost of materials. To start a business all you need is very low personal expenses, effective advertising, and a need to fill. I started my business with the blessing of my boss at the time. He is planning on moving, and I have to make a living. He still needs me sometimes so I do my own thing and when he calls for help I work it in to my schedule. I get paid as an independent contractor working under my own license and insurance.
> 504, if your boss knows you are side jobbing and has no problem with it, I don't have a problem with it either.
> When I went out on my own I had 0 customers. I advertised heavily, networked, business cards everywhere. Some of my bosses customers for service are using me now. I didn't angle to get them, they just found out one way or another I had started my own company and started to use me because the liked me better. I gave already gotten a lot of referral work, but I didn't have for the first several months. I am not working full time now most weeks, but I have no debt and low expenses (personal) and save money just for times like these.


That is the way it should be. I plan on going on my own but I feel right now is not a good time with 2 brand new children and all the expenses that come with them this young. I have given my boss jobs that came my way in excess of 30k and some that were just a few thousand, so I guess he has no problem if I'm referring a good portion of my yearly salary to him lol.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

For the most part, every owner has done side work. While there are a few that didn't do it, or have some obscure definition to explain it away, it does not change the fact. 

I wish to bring a little different aspect to this thread. I am still fresh to owning my business, and as such, I still can remember what its like to have worked for someone else, and think that I was underpaid. 

*To those who actually are doing side work.*

You better get insurance to cover the work you do. I don't care how you phrase it, leave a paper trail or not. Even if a customer does not have legal standing in criminal court,the burden of proof in civil court is much less. Any lawyer worth his or her salt, can and will find a way to sue you, and or the company you work for. If you don't believe me, you better do some research. 

Example: A few years ago there was a terrible house fire. People died, people got hurt. The cause of the fire, was faulty installation of gas line piping. The job was done by a side-jobber. They could not find a way to go after him, so they went after the company he worked for. 

After the lawsuit was filed, the employee lost his job. Some how, some way, the lawyer was able to tie the work back to the company that employed the tech, even though he did it on his own time. 

Side jobbing is a risky business, I don't care how you slice it. You are playing with fire, so to speak. If one time, something goes wrong, and you can't cover it, your a$$ will be in a sling. 

*Some States even revoke the professional license of the person, due to proven negligence. 
*

Another commentary to the I get my own customers.

If you weren't side jobbing, who would you refer that customer to? The company you work for right? 

Don't kid yourself, you know what you are doing is wrong, and you need to stop. If side jobbing is so wonderful, why not open you own shop and take the whole cake? 


One more.

*Why are you wages not enough?* Do you think that maybe its in part, due to the fact that there are people out there sabotaging the market with low rates? 

Get a clue! When you side job for less money than a legitimate business, that incurs expenses, insurances, liability, and employees. You hurt the whole industry. You are directly, and indirectly hurting the whole industry. 

While you might thinks its better than handyman, generals, or any other type of hack, its not. 

*You are no better than the rest of the hacks. You may have some type of license, but since you are cutting corners not incurring real business expenses, you are possible worse than a handy-man.*


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## HuskyMurph (Dec 13, 2010)

good points. ill still do em but i pick and choose. my boss knows and ive given him work many times. i know i watch my back. know one that has any real good skill should not even think about side jobs. but just remeber this side jobs are bad you shouldnt be hiring anybody on the side at all. that goes for your buddy the roofer. or sider or carpenter. are you handy at anything else. did you finish off your basement or do a remodel YOURSELF. fix your car yourself. because you didnt get payed you took work away from a roofer, a framer a mechanic. so if you hire for everything then more power to you. think about it.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

HuskyMurph said:


> good points. ill still do em but i pick and choose. my boss knows and ive given him work many times. i know i watch my back. know one that has any real good skill should not even think about side jobs. but just remeber this side jobs are bad you shouldnt be hiring anybody on the side at all. that goes for your buddy the roofer. or sider or carpenter. are you handy at anything else. did you finish off your basement or do a remodel YOURSELF. fix your car yourself. because you didnt get payed you took work away from a roofer, a framer a mechanic. so if you hire for everything then more power to you. think about it.



You don't understand what was said.

Do you carry liability? Workmanship comp for yourself, if required? What are you hourly rates compared to a legit business? 

Also, in most States a person can work on their own home. That is not a fair comparison to someone who charges for work they are not qualified to do.


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## HuskyMurph (Dec 13, 2010)

Indie said:


> You don't understand what was said.
> 
> Do you carry liability? Workmanship comp for yourself, if required? What are you hourly rates compared to a legit business?
> 
> Also, in most States a person can work on their own home. That is not a fair comparison to someone who charges for work they are not qualified to do.


 ill let it go. i see all your points. but times are slow you have to do what you have to do to feed your family. not being qualified isnt a good reason......^ i do the same stuff on the side as i do at work. also so know one thinks otherwise. its slow cause when i statted 6 years ago we were plumbing 2 houses a week. 5-6 bathroom house, two kitchen sinks two L.Rooms, Garage sinks. etcetc etc. new houses were are bread and butter. thanks all for the advice i do apprciate it.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I will make this statement first. I do not do side work. I work enough that I do not want to do more work after work concerning physical plumbing work.

Prior to starting my own company I did do side work until I had enough to start up a company. EVERY plumber I know who owns a business started with side work even the plumbers that grew up in a family plumbing company. I know a lot of plumbers my father owned a plumbing supply house and I sold to master plumbers and their employees. We did not sell to the public until the economy busted in the 70’s. When I did side work I was not cheaper I was more than most of the plumbing shops. I have always believed in my ability and worth. I am never going to work for less than I should be paid and that has always been my MO. I still believe that the majority of owners did side work to get started. It is very difficult for someone to get their slice of the pie with no clients it can be done however I doubt many have had to try to start up blind and unknown. The risk is high but the reward is even higher with those who do have goals and a dream to have a start up. For those who only do side work for beer and a few dollars, these are the dangerous ones and need to be stopped.

I understand the anger with people doing side work. It is natural especially with the state of the economy and not having the ability to build value. Using the state of our profession in Florida companies lose technicians to other companies for a measly 25 cents an hour. Pay your technicians what they are worth. If they are not worth the money cut them loose and get techs that are worth the money. At the local phcc the reason employers will not bring employees because of the fear of losing them for 25 cents an hour to another company. In order for many techs to get a raise they must jump ship to another company. Ever wonder why loyalty to a company is no longer found, it used to be a guy was employed and retired from a shop. The guy that employees me hired me in 1993, another tech was hired in 1995, another in 1989 our last hire was from 2004 and the one before that in 2000. We hired a guy a few months back and let him go and I just hired a guy two months ago. This man our owner has our loyalty and we watch out for him. He treats us well and we perform like it is our company. None of us do side work and none of us want to do side work. We get paid extremely well and even our families we turn over to the company and Bill gives them a family discount.

This will not stop all side work but will help in stopping staff from wanting to do side work.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

HuskyMurph said:


> not being qualified isnt a good reason......^ i do the same stuff on the side as i do at work.


Qualifications aren't only knowledge. In order to work for yourself and charge money for what you do, you need to have other qualifications. Some of these include the proper licenses (do you have a business license for the areas you work in?) and insurance. Are you bonded? Do you claim the income? I assume I know the answer but I thought I'd ask. Commercial auto insurance on the personal vehicle (I hope you don't use a company truck) you use when side-jobbing? These are all qualifications to allow somebody to contract. The arguments are the same as the ones used to justify a legit company vs. a handyman. 

All of this doesn't even begin to address the devaluation of the trade.






Paul


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

If you are an apprentice or journeyman doing side jobs and think it's OK, then stop reading NOW because the rest of this post is just going to piss you off.

First, go read this thread... http://www.plumbingzone.com/f4/side-job-contracting-10043/

I know it's nine pages long but since you are taking the easy way out in life by taking shortcuts in our trade, then you should have plenty of time to peruse the posts in detail.

If you insist on not only doing side jobs without a Plumbing Contractor's License (or your state's equivalent) and proper insurances, but also stubbornly, selfishly, and arrogantly rationalize it under the "a man's got to do what a man's got to do", then you are nothing more than a tick sucking the lifeblood out of the very trade you claim to be a part of.

Don't give me any of that "but I have to get customers", "I have to eat", "Johnny needs a new pair of shoes", "my boss cheated me", "taxes are too high", "my friend did it", "my boss did it", blah, blah, blah. Stop being a cry baby.

Here's the cold hard fact...It's not easy to do it the right way but there are plenty of grownups in our trade that did do it the right way. So if you're not willing enough, smart enough, or strong enough to figure it out, then quit pretending you know what you're doing before you get hurt or even worse hurt someone else.

Doing side work as a regular supplement to your income proves one of three things:

1. Your paid too little so talk to your boss to resolve that issue or go get a better paying job.
2. You're greedy and think worker's comp laws, liability insurance laws, labor laws, and tax laws apply to everybody but you.
or...
3. You're an idiot.

And that's not to say it can't some combination of all 3.

Like a tick sucking the lifeblood out of our trade, a plumber doing side jobs is just another hack that just so happens to have an ID card.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

*stealing work.*




Plbgbiz I really like a lot of what you say. Rarely is there ever a piece that is not well thought out. However in this thread it is the kettle calling the pot black. Here is your statement. It does not matter if it was out of the city that your company did most of their work it still is side work.

QUOTE by plbgbiz
I worked for a company that only provided on call service to regular customers. Vary rarely did we work nights or weekends. Even then it was only to patch till we could go full force on Monday. That gave me free time to get started on my "Being a Businessman" dream. I worked a second job at night to make ends meet and spent weekends with my Dad shopping flea markets and pawn shops for hand tools.

A year before I took my first side job I told my boss my goal was to start my own company. The first jobs I contracted were re-pipes in a different city on the weekends. Waaaay out of my employer's service area. 

When I knew what I wanted was never going to come from being employed, I found myself at home with the trunk of a Chevy Caprice full of worn out tools, stars in my eyes, and a knot in my stomach. On the first day I was on my own, I printed fliers at Kinko's and hand delivered them to all homes and businesses within a mile radius of my house. I've had a little to do every day ever since. It wasn't easy but that's why they call it work.

By the way, "can't feed my kids" as an excuse for SJ?!?!? Really? Quit plumbing and get a job at WalMart. All their greeters are well fed.

My excuse for doing side work back in the day was to start up my own business. At the time I started doing side work I quit the plumbing company and worked in a company that was not involved with plumbing and gave me more time for side work. I sent letters to people I knew explaining that I was starting up and to give me a chance.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Thank you for the kind words Richard but you misinterpreted what I said.


Richard Hilliard said:


> Plbgbiz I really like a lot of what you say. Rarely is there ever a piece that is not well thought out. However in this thread it is the kettle calling the pot black. Here is your statement. It does not matter if it was out of the city that your company did *most *of their work it still is side work.


That is not what I said. Please re-read...


plbgbiz said:


> ..I worked a second job at night to make ends meet...
> ...A year before I took my first side job I told my boss my goal was to start my own company. The first jobs I contracted were re-pipes in a different city on the weekends. Waaaay out of my employer's service area.




I worked as a night clerk at a motel to get start up money for my business. I spent 3 years working 8-5 plumbing 5 days a week, and 11p-7a at the motel 5 nights a week.

When I took the contract on re-piping the houses in the other city, it was with the open consent of my boss. Neither he, nor any of the employees had a license for the city the job was in. And he had known for a year prior that having a business of my own is what I was working toward. I took the job as a licensed Plumbing Contractor with full insurance coverage, my own vehicle, my own tools, my own supply house account, and my own risk. And shortly there after I was let go so there would be no conflict of interest.

In my opinion, my start up was ethical, above board to my employer, and legal. That is not the type of side job hackery being discussed in this thread.

I have had two former employees obtain their contractor license and start their own ventures. I supported their effort and was aware of their goals. I allowed one of them to work for me for three months while I knew he was developing his own customers and then I terminated his employment with us. The second left voluntarily right after he got his contractor's license.

I openly support growth in our trade and sometimes even to my own detriment. Even if it means losing a good employee. As you put it, anything less would be the pot calling the kettle something to cook in. 

I will always support men and women taking on the torch of business ownership. It is a noble yet often thankless endeavor. I regularly visit and share ideas with my own local competitors. But I have not ever nor will I ever soften my view on the cancer in our trade that is unlicensed, law breaking, tax evading side jobbers.

Too many of us worked too long and too hard for me to sit quiet while some arrogant journeyman proclaims the virtues of his illegal activity.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

*stealing work*

Plbgbiz. I am sorry however you were working for another plumbing company. Granted you were fully capable to do the work. That is not in question. The question is side work. Whether you have permission or not it still is side work. I appreciate the fact that your company did not go that far. I was not a hack either. However I still did side work when I was younger when I wanted to start a business. I quit where I worked and went to work for a company that was not involved with plumbing. I still say it was side work as it was a side job to my main job until I felt comfortable enough to step into the deep end. My only question is this; did you receive a paycheck from a plumbing company at the same time that you did the side work of re-piping?( I am not asking if the plumbing company paid you to do the re-pipe.)

Side work is side work. I am not saying you did not start your company legit. We all have to start somewhere. I fired a guy that stole work from me doing side work at a new home where I did the plumbing. I also informed the guys I did not mind them doing side work as long as it did not come from my clients. I wanted to sell the material to them. I let my guys go work on the side job when we were slow during the winter months with new construction. I have a problem with stealing clients more than side work.

Where I am at now I will fire a guy that does side work immediately this is not my company and my responsibilities are to the company and all of the employees including non productive employees. Do as I say and not as I did kind of thing. One of the things I learned with time is whatever anyone does will affect everyone in the company.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> ...My only question is this; did you receive a paycheck from a plumbing company at the same time that you did the side work of re-piping?( I am not asking if the plumbing company paid you to do the re-pipe.)...




Yes Richard, I did get paid by a plumbing company as a licensed employee to perform plumbing work. And then on the weekend, as a licensed Plumbing Contractor, I was paid to re-pipe houses in another city that neither my employer nor his employees had a license in. There was no direct conflict of interest, no competition to my employer (direct or indirect), and most of all, no illegal activity.

So, did I operate a plumbing company part time while still fulfilling a roll as employee? Yes. And that is a side job. On this we agree 100%. However, I view a legitimate and legal startup of a new plumbing business as a good thing for our trade, not a negative. That is why I offer support and friendship to other contractors in my own area that I believe are operating at a high standard. And in the past, I have even helped two of my own employees take that step. Like Gramps told me once, if one plumber could do all the work, there would only be one plumber. So I am not afraid of someone earning their business stripes in my territory. More businesses of integrity make us all stronger. If for no other reason than by competition based on a somewhat level field.

Slickrick's original post about a journeyman that contracted for work, is side jobbing of a different sort and that is what I was addressing. It does not serve to strengthen our trade. It does not promote healthy competition between businesses. It does not contribute to our society's needs. It does not encourage high standards of work ethic. After all, if the side jobber would cheat the company that feeds him every week, what would he do to the customer that likely will never see him again?

Redwood posted a modified definition to Side Job that fits what we are discussing quite well:http://www.plumbingzone.com/f4/side-job-contracting-10043/#post133896


Redwood said:


> SIDE JOB: adjective. The act of personally performing a plumbing task for an individual or company by an employee of a plumbing company and receive payment directly for such task without any involvement from the employer. Often this is closely associated with not reporting that income to the reigning tax authority. Or, having proper licensing, inspections if required, warranty, and insurance coverage. Generally a job where the homeowner is hung out to dry and the person performing the work will probably be fired if his boss found out about it. In most cases it would be regarded as stealing from the company you work for.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

*stealing work*

Plbgbiz

The only point I was making is the term side work. The rest I agree with you 100% and have not stated anything else.. The state of Ohio did not require a state license when I started. The cities maintained their own license and gave their own tests supported and given by the unions. This is a different discussion totally. I had to take separate city tests for the different licenses and each license was 100 dollars a minimum. Today it is a different bird and a state license is required and I would agree with you 100%. I was with all due respect making the trade more responsible when I was doing my side work and starting a legit business as you have maintained you did while doing nothing illegal.

I was making light that we make all kinds of excuses to justify when the facts show a different picture. I am glad that you did admit that it was side work.

To me side work is side work.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

So if I hired a contractor to work for me as an employee on certain days and he continued with my knowledge and consent to travel to another city (for which I have no credentials) to work for his own customers.....

Does that mean his business in that city is now side work?


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I would have to say I see a difference in what Biz did to a side job. He was working on his own, and starting his business. I would consider that working for TWO companies not working for one and side jobbing. You have to start your company sometime and if you get all the proper licenses and insurances, then it's a seperate company. It's the same thing as working two jobs.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> I would have to say I see a difference in what Biz did to a side job. He was working on his own, and starting his business. I would consider that working for TWO companies not working for one and side jobbing. You have to start your company sometime and if you get all the proper licenses and insurances, then it's a seperate company. It's the same thing as working two jobs.


Exactly. When I here the term "side job" I can't mentally put that in the same category as a Legitimate Business Start Up (LBSU) venture out in the open with all parties aware. It would be hypocritical to demean or forcibly hold back a person from doing what I have done. The circumstances surrounding the LBSU would determine how much (if any) help I would offer. I have said before that I had more help than I deserved but I went out of my way to build my business rather than tear someone else's down.

So again, this thread is about a JP that steals work from his own boss by performing illegal activities, masquerading as a Professional Plumber, putting customers at risk, putting his boss at risk, and running a con on the IRS.

If a waiter works at two different restaurants, is one of them side work? If a doctor sees patients in two different hospitals and is paid separately, is one of those side work?

I understand and respect what you're saying Richard, but I must only agree to disagree. An LBSU of a real plumbing business is not side work in this context. I was wrong to to use side job to describe a LBSU. The more I ponder this, the more I am convinced the term side job should NEVER be used when speaking of a licensed and insured Plumbing Contractor that is working with consent and outside the licensed area of a current employer.


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

RULE #1- *Never* whore your own trade!!!!!!!!!! RULE # 2 - *NEVER FORGET RULE # 1*

I had great mentors that taught me the value of my trade, and that integrity is respect of the industry that feeds me, and betters me. 

I did not do side work. The last thing I ever wanted to do at night or on the week ends was plumbing. In 1991 during George I we went into a recession here and work dropped to 20 hours per week. I put an ad in the paper got, an occupational license and found myself 10 yards to mow. It was simple, one or two yards a night on my way home from work and Saturdays if needed. I made myself an extra 600.00 per month. 

I worked for people for 17 years before I started my own Biz. Over the years my wife and I both did things to make a little extra cash here and there. Every thing from deliver pizza at night, to a part time job at a Hardware store. 

When it was time to start my own biz I saved some of my part time job money to go out and get my customer base. I did not do side jobs to build a client base. I went to a home show and met some people and found my own clients. I did it with money I saved from my part time jobs. I did it after i left my job. I took the time to learn that to get started in biz you should save a couple of months income.

Integrity is an action word.... Often difficult to execute for some folks.....


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I can't say too much. I took over my dad's company. I worked for him when he needed an extra hand even though I was employed by another company. I never did jobs not through a company. Now that I own the biz, I see how side jobbers directly effect my income.

It's an uphill battle to come into a job when someone else literally bid it at material plus 20 bucks an hour. Then it takes time to explain why you are 3 or 4 times as much. They always understand, sometimes they care and sometimes they don't. I hope everyone that does a side job has something go wrong.

I knew a guy that used to work for the company I worked for. He was doing side work on company time with company tools. He got hurt on a job, ruined someones home and got sued. He also was fired. He got what he deserved IMO.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*side work insurance.....*

Its wise to ask your "side job buddy" 
for the name of his insurance company if you are a home owner....
 most dont have any.....


a good story from Tuscon ......
lady had a plumber installing a tankless heater in her attic... 
and he accidently caught the attic on fire....


he gets out of the attic screaming and tells the lady to call the 
fire department.... and she thinks he is going out to his truck to get a fire extinguisher......

but instead, he takes off like a bat out of hell and leaves 
half his tools laying in the garage....:laughing::laughing:


the house almost burns down to the ground and they
 find and arrest this jerkweed a few months later working in another county.....


her insurance company was not happy to have to pay for the damages:laughing:.


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

RW Plumbing said:


> I can't say too much. I took over my dad's company. I worked for him when he needed an extra hand even though I was employed by another company. I never did jobs not through a company. Now that I own the biz, I see how side jobbers directly effect my income.
> 
> It's an uphill battle to come into a job when someone else literally bid it at material plus 20 bucks an hour. Then it takes time to explain why you are 3 or 4 times as much. They always understand, sometimes they care and sometimes they don't. I hope everyone that does a side job has something go wrong.
> 
> I knew a guy that used to work for the company I worked for. He was doing side work on company time with company tools. He got hurt on a job, ruined someones home and got sued. He also was fired. He got what he deserved IMO.


Big difference between a 2nd generationer helping his Dad and a Craigs list ad that intentionally advertises side work. I bet your Dad was licensed. Totally OK in my book.... 

I was blessed with being the cause of flooding a house early on in the trade and saw how much damage a stupid mistake could do. I was always terrified if something happened I would be denied a license when the day came to take the test. It only takes one first place finish in a furniture regatta to learn the hard way.


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