# Consumer education



## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

The flipping Vegas thread was sort of my last straw. I have a large bug up my arse to educate consumers. What have you guys done to educate consumers? Anything large scale? I think if plumbers got together we could do lots to educate consumers and protect our trade. The reason I see handymen getting plumbing work or people hiring Home Depot, is the respect for our trade is gone. All the so called professional organizations do nothing to combat the perception that plumbers are idiots, and their job is simple. IMO this is what unions were supposed to do but failed. I've seen many threads on here about people taking pictures of plumbing disasters why can't we use stuff like this to educate consumers? Any thoughts?


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

Let the hacks educate them. Once they get slammed with multiple thousands of dollars for work that is worthless or sued out of house and home, they'll learn. Until then, they just want cheap cheap cheap. When someone in their house dies from carbon monoxide poison, they may finally understand that they should have hired a licensed pro. So to answer your question directly.... scare the hell out of them.


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## Tim`s Plumbing (Jan 17, 2012)

I agree 100% RW when I come across a person who may have tried to do plumbing them selves or has hired someone who is not quailfied. I explain to them that they are risking damage to the home or even them selves by not having a qualified pro do the work. I lived in an apartment years ago that the landlord did all his own plumbing when you ran the kitchen sink you could hear the trap in the bathtub being siphoned then you could smell the sewer gas. I often tell home owners stories like that not to scare them but to educate them of the dangers of improper venting.


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

Not sure how the unions are to blame for customers perception of the plumbing trade in this day and age? They spend countless hours and a lot of money promoting safer and better standards for everyone's benefit. 
PHCC pushes a lot of the same agenda in that aspect. 
Are you a member of either?


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

HSI said:


> Not sure how the unions are to blame for customers perception of the plumbing trade in this day and age? They spend countless hours and a lot of money promoting safer and better standards for everyone's benefit.
> PHCC pushes a lot of the same agenda in that aspect.
> Are you a member of either?


Yes, trust me I have first hand knowledge of unions. What exactly have they been doing besides paying lip service to their members? I haven't seen my local do anything in the way of consumer education. With the amount of money the UA brings in, you'd think they would direct some of that towards consumer education. As far as the PHCC, yes they are involved with product development but there again, no education on the consumer level. What good is developing new standards if the people who are purchasing don't know why?


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

Relic said:


> Let the hacks educate them. Once they get slammed with multiple thousands of dollars for work that is worthless or sued out of house and home, *they'll learn. Until then, they just want cheap cheap cheap.* When someone in their house dies from carbon monoxide poison, they may finally understand that they should have hired a licensed pro. So to answer your question directly.... scare the hell out of them.


Let them learn the hard way. Unfortunately in these economic times that is the story, most are looking for cheap. Alot of homeowners will exhaust all options before they call a professional. I've grown tired of the nonsense spewed by ignorant people who claim plumbers are expensive and our job is easy, I just agree with them.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Relic said:


> Let the hacks educate them. Once they get slammed with multiple thousands of dollars for work that is worthless or sued out of house and home, they'll learn. Until then, they just want cheap cheap cheap. When someone in their house dies from carbon monoxide poison, they may finally understand that they should have hired a licensed pro. So to answer your question directly.... scare the hell out of them.


Yeah, that'll show em. I ask you this though, what's better for your trade outlook I.E. your pocketbook, a well educated consumer base that understands the need for licensed competent professionals or uneducated people who don't understand why you charge double what handy man Jim down the street charges? There always has and will continue to be a certain element of caveat emptor, but if more people understood the difference between a pro and a hack it would be better for everyone. 

The majority of the people I come across with hacked up dangerous plumbing simply didn't know any better. They weren't trying to just save a buck, they didn't understand there was a difference. I know this because after I talk to most people, and they understand the difference a professional can make, they go the pro route. There are people who just want price and could care less about quality. They are in the minority though. 

I personally don't like telling people their plumbing system is screwed up beyond repair. I would rather they involved a professional in the first place. With how popular the zone is, and how many successful, professional plumbers are here we could really change things. I don't know what would be the best way to reach people en masse, but it would help if we did.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Perception will change when plumbers change. Don't foresee that happening anytime soon. When the vast majority of plumbers start treating consumers with respect, you will see a change.


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

Consumers only care about cost. Period. ( majority)

The ones that care about professional services are the ones that you have to hold onto. You can never convince someone to spend more than what they want to pay. 

I dont think consumer edu. Is the issue. I think stricter policies and more expediting by officials is tge key. Make all rural into municipalities and demand city inspections. Inform homeowners of tge illegalness of hiring unlicensed individuals. Make consumers responsible also. 

That would cost us, but i am willing to give an extra thousand or 2 a year to help fund this. Im sure any legsl master would agree.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

justin said:


> Consumers only care about cost. Period. ( majority)
> 
> The ones that care about professional services are the ones that you have to hold onto. You can never convince someone to spend more than what they want to pay.
> 
> ...


This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Pressuring your state officials some kind of lobby group. Same thing for consumers, the code and training are there for a reason.


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

Phat Cat said:


> Perception will change when plumbers change. Don't foresee that happening anytime soon. *When the vast majority of plumbers start treating consumers with respect, you will see a change.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I completely disagree, it's the other way around. If I had a dollar for all the ignorance and dis-respect I've heard over the years about plumbers I'd be a rich man.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

I had a call today I'm doing a bathroom remodel for a guy who refused in the beginning of the job to hire a gc or knowledgable supervisor for his project even after I highly advised him to do so. He talked about how many "construction projects" he has seen and how it's a piece of cake, in essence. Well I installed the trim for the shower valve and proceeded to test and happened to glimpse on the other side of the pony wall and I saw a puddle of water on the floor. I asked if they had hot mopped that wall, he said yes. Well, I don't know what happened but the guys doing the tile were illegal aliens who he couldn't even speak to because he spoke no Spanish. I don't know who did the hot mop nor did I see it, but he has no retribution now because I don't believe anybody was licensed except for me. It was very hard to bite my tongue and not say I told you so! Unfortunately this guy I don't think learned his lesson. Educating consumers is great, but you will not get through to many of them. In my experience, even after learning the hard way they still don't get it. If I had enough business I would avoid these types of customers like the plague, but at this point I don't have that luxury. I just collect a check every chance I get, you don't want an angry customer holding your money because of something you didn't have anything to do with. I'm all for educating customers, but the fact of the matter is , IMO the smart ones know to pay the qualified licensed contractors what they're worth because they realize it's way over their heads. The ones who think they are above us (construction trades) or could "easily do it themselves if only they had the time" are the ones who will get screwed in the long run either way. I don't think those consumers are reachable with our education, after all there is google and YouTube for all your DIY needs! Hahhahaha, my two cents.....


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> Perception will change when plumbers change. Don't foresee that happening anytime soon. When the vast majority of plumbers start treating consumers with respect, you will see a change.


I think you have that one backwards. I treat everyone with respect and in a professional manner, as do most of the plumbers I've worked with. Doesn't change the fact the general public perceives us one step above janitors.


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## sburntx74 (Aug 13, 2012)

I can't imaging not educating, and not treating my paying customer with respect. Regardless of my company, I take it as a personal responsibility to do so.


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## 3KP (Jun 19, 2008)

*Education*

Thursday I got called to do an estimate on a partial replumb. (someone stole the copper out of their basement) They told me they had 4 more plumbers coming out to give an estimate. I advise them to becareful some folks claim to be plumbers but are not! I shown them my license and pointed out how my truck is lettered and have the license # on the side of it. If the other estimates can not produce a license or the truck is not lettered turn them away! If you don't chose our company that is fine just want you to know how to protect your investment and family!

They called back with in 2hrs after I left. We did the job on SAturday. They told me the contractors after me were not as impressive and they realy like the time I took to educate them on the difference of license and non licensed plumbers. They call my office and told my wife they were impressed with the plumber that came out and they programed our # into their phone for future problems. :thumbup:

Will be returning in a few days to install an new kitchen faucet


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

3KP said:


> Thursday I got called to do an estimate on a partial replumb. (someone stole the copper out of their basement) They told me they had 4 more plumbers coming out to give an estimate. I advise them to becareful some folks claim to be plumbers but are not! I shown them my license and pointed out how my truck is lettered and have the license # on the side of it. If the other estimates can not produce a license or the truck is not lettered turn them away! If you don't chose our company that is fine just want you to know how to protect your investment and family!
> 
> They called back with in 2hrs after I left. We did the job on SAturday. They told me the contractors after me were not as impressive and they realy like the time I took to educate them on the difference of license and non licensed plumbers. They call my office and told my wife they were impressed with the plumber that came out and they programed our # into their phone for future problems. :thumbup:
> 
> Will be returning in a few days to install an new kitchen faucet


Perfect. We all need to do this with every customer we meet.


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

I usually complain when the government gets involved, but how else do we stop this!

I do get customers from people that have been exploited, by either hack general contractors or DIY's. WHY does it have to come to this, some of this stuff is buried in walls and attics and the dangers are not even seen or known about.

Now I'm dealing with a guy who has a store front ( which I do not). He sells water. Fine. Now for three years he is doing water treatment. I hardly see water treatment anymore. The company he gets equipment from educates him. now he thinks he knows everything, getting into pressure systems and wells and pumps. He has asked me to do a few jobs with him (no way!) when it's over his head. Last week it was 3 commercial water heaters! Furious! So this nice good talking guy is taking work, and I have to wait for a law suit! I don't even know what he is legally allowed to work on in Canada.

I heard in UK you must have license to work on anything, but that has driven the trades underground!

What can we do??!!

Mad as hell!

Case

Btw good thread RW


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## Tim`s Plumbing (Jan 17, 2012)

Here in Mass if you are caught doing plumbing without a plumbing license you can be fined up to $2,500 but I still see unlicensed guys posting on Craigslist. The problem is the state does not have enough people out there enforcing these law`s.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

That's right. There isn't enough people out there to enforce it, or it isn't a priority. There's one municipality around here that the inspector does a good job of catching guys, but that's about it. They can collect our money for license fees, and permit costs but they don't protect our trade and enforce the rules. In most states it's illegal to even advertise for plumbing without a masters license on the ad. Yet, Craigslist is chocked full of these clowns. 

They don't do anything because we aren't holding them accountable. If we got together and demanded enforcement, things would change. If we gave every person who was screwed by some unlicensed guy the power, a voice of someone to biotch at things might change. For every thread I see pointing out some hackery, there should be a letter written to a state board letting them know they failed to enforce the code in this area. I'm slow today, I'm going to write a letter to my state inspection department about all the ads I see on Craigslist today. 

It probably won't do anything but, if half the companies in this state did the same we wouldn't have Craigslist ads her anymore.


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

My local had a bill (_HB1445_) introduced recently that forbids any prevailing wage project to pay unlicensed workers the prevailing wage. So all state projects are required by law to check on the persons license status by the employer, or face penalties. 

HB1445 insures that contractors hire and use only licensed workers on any state project, or face fines of $5000 per offense. We've always had a problem with out of state contractors coming in and bidding on state work and using unlicensed hacks. This loophole is closed now and this helps the industry by making sure non-plumbers do not perform work. This also helps local companies that have properly licensed guys. They don't have to compete with out of state hacks that are unlicensed now.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

i try not to talk to much to customers,the can educate themselfs, im not a teacher


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

While the PHCC and the unions may have some responsibility here, the majority of the issue lies with us. We have fostered the image by allowing our employees and sometimes ourselves to become sloppy and portray the wrong image to customers. We are often dressed poorly in dirty and torn jeans and tee shirts with questionable messages printed across them or filthy shorts and caps worn backwards or sideways on the head. We send servicemen to homes with skull tats all over their necks and arms and a face full of steel studs. Dreadlocks, beards that look like vermin live in them, plain white vans decorated with rude stickers, dirt and rust. Jobsite radios blaring out songs extolling the virtues of "slappin the hoe around" Top all that off with our growing propensity to use whatever products will allow us to get the job done fast, cheap and easy so we can get out of the house and get to drinking and smoking weed and you can see why homwowners might have lost a bit of respect for us.


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

It's a vicious cycle. In order to provide CHEAP service, you need to have cheap labor. If the company pays $15 per/h who do you think will apply for that position? Unlicensed ex-cons and illegals that's who. The way out is tighter local state oversight of existing laws. The consumer will ALWAYS want cheaper and if the industry allows this to be the driver of future growth, expect things to get worse, not better. You don't see this in the medical industry because of oversight.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> While the PHCC and the unions may have some responsibility here, the majority of the issue lies with us. We have fostered the image by allowing our employees and sometimes ourselves to become sloppy and portray the wrong image to customers. We are often dressed poorly in dirty and torn jeans and tee shirts with questionable messages printed across them or filthy shorts and caps worn backwards or sideways on the head. We send servicemen to homes with skull tats all over their necks and arms and a face full of steel studs. Dreadlocks, beards that look like vermin live in them, plain white vans decorated with rude stickers, dirt and rust. Jobsite radios blaring out songs extolling the virtues of "slappin the hoe around" Top all that off with our growing propensity to use whatever products will allow us to get the job done fast, cheap and easy so we can get out of the house and get to drinking and smoking weed and you can see why homwowners might have lost a bit of respect for us.


How many guys under your employ fit under that standard? I certainly don't, nor would anyone affiliated with me. Most companies are the same. I don't know too many outfits that would allow that sort of thing. The ones that do either work large commercial construction, or aren't what I would call professionals and are the sort of people we need to separate ourselves from.

You're right about one thing though, the majority of the fault lies with us. By not pursuing hacks, or shoddy work and not doing our part to deliver the message of what separates a professional from a clown. That's what this thread is about. Doing our part is more than making sure our employees fit a certain standard, or making sure hacks aren't doing plumbing. Anyone who cares about this should do something. The biggest problem is when we sit idly by. I know at times it doesn't seem like anything we do makes any sort of difference. 

I know there is one thing the older generations got right, the respect for our trade. I've worked to hard, and too long to give it all up. Even if I don't change anything, at least I can try. Seeing our trade go down the tubes is disheartening. I have a long time left in this trade and the way things are going, I'm not sure there will be a trade left by the time I'm your age. The generation before you protected the trade for your living. Now, no one is protecting it. Back in the old days, guys would do whatever it took to protect our trade. Now we sit by and watch as box stores and hacks do our work.


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## sburntx74 (Aug 13, 2012)

RW Plumbing said:


> How many guys under your employ fit under that standard? I certainly don't, nor would anyone affiliated with me. Most companies are the same. I don't know too many outfits that would allow that sort of thing. The ones that do either work large commercial construction, or aren't what I would call professionals and are the sort of people we need to separate ourselves from.
> 
> You're right about one thing though, the majority of the fault lies with us. By not pursuing hacks, or shoddy work and not doing our part to deliver the message of what separates a professional from a clown. That's what this thread is about. Doing our part is more than making sure our employees fit a certain standard, or making sure hacks aren't doing plumbing. Anyone who cares about this should do something. The biggest problem is when we sit idly by. I know at times it doesn't seem like anything we do makes any sort of difference.
> 
> I know there is one thing the older generations got right, the respect for our trade. I've worked to hard, and too long to give it all up. Even if I don't change anything, at least I can try. Seeing our trade go down the tubes is disheartening. I have a long time left in this trade and the way things are going, I'm not sure there will be a trade left by the time I'm your age. The generation before you protected the trade for your living. Now, no one is protecting it. Back in the old days, guys would do whatever it took to protect our trade. Now we sit by and watch as box stores and hacks do our work.


Well put!


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Relic said:


> It's a vicious cycle. In order to provide CHEAP service, you need to have cheap labor. If the company pays $15 per/h who do you think will apply for that position? Unlicensed ex-cons and illegals that's who. The way out is tighter local state oversight of existing laws. The consumer will ALWAYS want cheaper and if the industry allows this to be the driver of future growth, expect things to get worse, not better. You don't see this in the medical industry because of oversight.


Yup, that is the driving force. It's up to us to make sure that oversight happens. All of us need to make our states do their jobs.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

GREENPLUM said:


> i try not to talk to much to customers,the can educate themselfs, im not a teacher


Then you're part of the problem. It's your job to show customers why you do it better than an unlicensed guy. They won't educate themselves. They will continue to hire unlicensed hacks, and your work will get slower and wage will decline. If you're happy with losing your money to people who don't know what they're doing, continue on your path. If you want to secure your trade for the future, get involved.

You are a teacher. Customers won't know the difference between a pro and a hack unless you tell them. Everyone here knows that plumbing isn't something that can be compared apples to apples. All jobs aren't equal. No one will know that unless pros start spreading the word.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

> RW Plumbing said:
> 
> 
> > How many guys under your employ fit under that standard? I certainly don't, nor would anyone affiliated with me. Most companies are the same. I don't know too many outfits that would allow that sort of thing. The ones that do either work large commercial construction, or aren't what I would call professionals and are the sort of people we need to separate ourselves from.
> ...


*So get involved with the PHCC and sit in on plumbing board meetings. Find the local tech schools teaching plumbing and offer to talk to the youngsters entering the trade. Support the trade and support the trade schools. The schools need your time and whatever else you can give to help thos kids out. We do a piss poor job of marketing our trade and our skills. Finally; Why do we insist on lowering our standards? The popular excuse is that we can't be competitive unless we use crappy products just like everyone else does. Maybe so, but consider that strategy and ask yourself just how low are you willing to go. Homeowners and handy hacks abound because they no longer need the skills or the tools necessary to install the crap being pushed on the industry. PEX would have died early on had we not allowed it to saturate the market and the same can be said for most of the other crap thats out there.*


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

> So get involved with the PHCC and sit in on plumbing board meetings. Find the local tech schools teaching plumbing and offer to talk to the youngsters entering the trade. Support the trade and support the trade schools. The schools need your time and whatever else you can give to help thos kids out. We do a piss poor job of marketing our trade and our skills. Finally; Why do we insist on lowering our standards? The popular excuse is that we can't be competitive unless we use crappy products just like everyone else does. Maybe so, but consider that strategy and ask yourself just how low are you willing to go. Homeowners and handy hacks abound because they no longer need the skills or the tools necessary to install the crap being pushed on the industry. PEX would have died early on had we not allowed it to saturate the market and the same can be said for most of the other crap thats out there.


I want to disagree with a part of your last comment. We as in the _workers_ have no hand in what products come to market. This is a process of the free market system. If the product performs to a set standard, it's allowed on the open market. We can petition the overseeing authority to raise the standard yes, but this goes beyond the scope of most MCA's or PHCC.

I'm union and pay my dues which in part go to the political fund we have. We've managed to get a bill (_HB1445_) signed into law that at least helps our state and helps the companies that live here. My donation through my dues helps the industry whether you are union or not. Point is, the most productive method to help the industry maintain a high level of standards and see us prosper is through collective activity i.e. donate your money and time to help change your states laws. Joining your local PHCC is a good place to start, but honestly they are not political and in my view are not the best choice if you want something changed in that arena.

We go down to the state house many times per year in force to make ourselves visible to the legislature. We hold signs and wear our shirts, making certain bills that support the growth and well being of our trade are passed and we hold to task those who oppose them. I've personally have walked the line in pouring rain for our trade.

We also recruit from the armed services, our helmets to hard hats program is huge and very successful. I'd suggest any of your owners out there check out your local armed service recruiter for more info on how you can recruit new blood from them for your companies.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

On the service side of things, my employer has designed his presentation to outline what our services provide and how we protect the client. We don't call anyone else out but it does help them u der stand the difference between legal and other businesses.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Relic said:


> I want to disagree with a part of your last comment. We as in the workers have no hand in what products come to market. This is a process of the free market system. If the product performs to a set standard, it's allowed on the open market. We can petition the overseeing authority to raise the standard yes, but this goes beyond the scope of most MCA's or PHCC.
> 
> I'm union and pay my dues which in part go to the political fund we have. We've managed to get a bill (HB1445) signed into law that at least helps our state and helps the companies that live here. My donation through my dues helps the industry whether you are union or not. Point is, the most productive method to help the industry maintain a high level of standards and see us prosper is through collective activity i.e. donate your money and time to help change your states laws. Joining your local PHCC is a good place to start, but honestly they are not political and in my view are not the best choice if you want something changed in that arena.
> 
> ...


Sounds like your union is doing stuff to help you guys out. If we did that here, things might be better.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

RW Plumbing said:


> Then you're part of the problem. It's your job to show customers why you do it better than an unlicensed guy. They won't educate themselves. They will continue to hire unlicensed hacks, and your work will get slower and wage will decline. If you're happy with losing your money to people who don't know what they're doing, continue on your path. If you want to secure your trade for the future, get involved.
> 
> You are a teacher. Customers won't know the difference between a pro and a hack unless you tell them. Everyone here knows that plumbing isn't something that can be compared apples to apples. All jobs aren't equal. No one will know that unless pros start spreading the word.


if you say so ,, i see things abit differently :thumbsup:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Well I think that if we care about the trade then we all need to do whatever we can to improve things. Some can do more than others but we all need to be united in the cause. Plumbing really isn't a trade, it's a profession and it's a profession that carries a lot of responsibility for the health and safety of the public we serve. Face it though. Most are too busy and don't have the time to get out and beat the drum very often. Still, with the internet and all we should be able to do something. Maybe we need an organization that listens to our needs and concerns. Maybe we need the PHCC to better tune themselves and us to the problems facing the trade today. I quit the PHCC a few years back because I feel that they are more interested in championing manufacturers and big business than supporting the little guy, the local businessman and his problems. I just didn't feel like I was getting any value for my membership but if they were to do an about face, maybe I would join up again.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Well I think that if we care about the trade then we all need to do whatever we can to improve things. Some can do more than others but we all need to be united in the cause. Plumbing really isn't a trade, it's a profession and it's a profession that carries a lot of responsibility for the health and safety of the public we serve. Face it though. Most are too busy and don't have the time to get out and beat the drum very often. Still, with the internet and all we should be able to do something. Maybe we need an organization that listens to our needs and concerns. Maybe we need the PHCC to better tune themselves and us to the problems facing the trade today. I quit the PHCC a few years back because I feel that they are more interested in championing manufacturers and big business than supporting the little guy, the local businessman and his problems. I just didn't feel like I was getting any value for my membership but if they were to do an about face, maybe I would join up again.


This is what I'm trying to say. There is no organization out there which really looks out for our interests. I think the time for one is past due.


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

RW Plumbing said:


> The flipping Vegas thread was sort of my last straw. I have a large bug up my arse to educate consumers. What have you guys done to educate consumers? Anything large scale? I think if plumbers got together we could do lots to educate consumers and protect our trade. The reason I see handymen getting plumbing work or people hiring Home Depot, is the respect for our trade is gone. All the so called professional organizations do nothing to combat the perception that plumbers are idiots, and their job is simple. IMO this is what unions were supposed to do but failed. I've seen many threads on here about people taking pictures of plumbing disasters why can't we use stuff like this to educate consumers? Any thoughts?


There is a way to educate, inform, and ingratiate ourselves to a small percentage of our customers, but it seems to me that we are running down an inevitable road to CHANGE (and not the Obama kind). My grandfather was Ua local 469, and told me about their opposition to an insidious scourge. They tried to keep municipalities and governing bodies from adopting these stupid materials, which would be easier to install, cheaper to make, and therefore require less highly trained personnel, specialized tools, and manpower to complete a project. The evil was plastic drain pipe... And the reason they didn't win, ultimately, was that they were running up against the capitalist free market. I don't mean to knock capitalism, for all it's perceived faults, it has been good for a lot of people, my family included. But, one of its side effects, is that up against a finite set of resources, business must always Increase profit. This means that we either have to continuously charge more for services (which means we have to pay employees more to afford them), or we have to use technology to find ever cheaper ways of doing things. 
My grandfather was right in his assertion that plastic pipe would in a lot of ways 'dumb down' our industry, and allow some people who should not be called plumbers to work in the field. They couldn't stop it, and neither can we. In less than 20 years, our houses will be built by robots, and many tradesmen will be put out of work (if you're laughing right now google it). This won't effect the service industry as much directly, but innovations in 'hand-tight, and 'click-seal' technologies will make it easier and easier for HO's and hacks to do their own work. There will still be service sector jobs, but they will get harder and harder to obtain and keep, and the competition inherent in our now worldwide system will drive prices lower and lower. It is where we are going...
Large lobby groups will be the only way to get our voices heard, and money is what makes THEM work. So eventually large corporations with deep pockets will be the only ones left who are 'seemingly' talking. Unions were good until they got in the way of profits. Now look what is happening to them. It would be nice if we could re-invent them, but IMO the writing is on the wall. This industry as it is now is doomed to go the way of the dinosaur. Highly skilled and highly technical sectors of our trade will still be in demand for quite some time, so if you are currently making a living in this part of the trade you might still be able to finish a respectable career, but these jobs will slowly become more scarce, and therefore harder to keep and prosper in. Luckily our failing education system is not producing a lot of American competition for you right now, but other countries are, and when the money men decide they need more and cheaper skilled labor, they will get it. 
I don't know what We should or could do about the whole thing, but complain and drag our feet toward the inevitable. I brought this subject up with my son, who is 11, while we were watching a documentary on robotic construction. I explained to him in simple terms, how robots that build and maintain houses, and eventually everything, would someday put us out of a job. I was surprised when he showed a firm grasp on the gravity of the subject, and said : "well, I guess you are going to have to learn how to fix robots."


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

mightypipe said:


> There is a way to educate, inform, and ingratiate ourselves to a small percentage of our customers, but it seems to me that we are running down an inevitable road to CHANGE (and not the Obama kind). My grandfather was Ua local 469, and told me about their opposition to an insidious scourge. They tried to keep municipalities and governing bodies from adopting these stupid materials, which would be easier to install, cheaper to make, and therefore require less highly trained personnel, specialized tools, and manpower to complete a project. The evil was plastic drain pipe... And the reason they didn't win, ultimately, was that they were running up against the capitalist free market. I don't mean to knock capitalism, for all it's perceived faults, it has been good for a lot of people, my family included. But, one of its side effects, is that up against a finite set of resources, business must always Increase profit. This means that we either have to continuously charge more for services (which means we have to pay employees more to afford them), or we have to use technology to find ever cheaper ways of doing things.
> My grandfather was right in his assertion that plastic pipe would in a lot of ways 'dumb down' our industry, and allow some people who should not be called plumbers to work in the field. They couldn't stop it, and neither can we. In less than 20 years, our houses will be built by robots, and many tradesmen will be put out of work (if you're laughing right now google it). This won't effect the service industry as much directly, but innovations in 'hand-tight, and 'click-seal' technologies will make it easier and easier for HO's and hacks to do their own work. There will still be service sector jobs, but they will get harder and harder to obtain and keep, and the competition inherent in our now worldwide system will drive prices lower and lower. It is where we are going...
> Large lobby groups will be the only way to get our voices heard, and money is what makes THEM work. So eventually large corporations with deep pockets will be the only ones left who are 'seemingly' talking. Unions were good until they got in the way of profits. Now look what is happening to them. It would be nice if we could re-invent them, but IMO the writing is on the wall. This industry as it is now is doomed to go the way of the dinosaur. Highly skilled and highly technical sectors of our trade will still be in demand for quite some time, so if you are currently making a living in this part of the trade you might still be able to finish a respectable career, but these jobs will slowly become more scarce, and therefore harder to keep and prosper in. Luckily our failing education system is not producing a lot of American competition for you right now, but other countries are, and when the money men decide they need more and cheaper skilled labor, they will get it.
> I don't know what We should or could do about the whole thing, but complain and drag our feet toward the inevitable. I brought this subject up with my son, who is 11, while we were watching a documentary on robotic construction. I explained to him in simple terms, how robots that build and maintain houses, and eventually everything, would someday put us out of a job. I was surprised when he showed a firm grasp on the gravity of the subject, and said : "well, I guess you are going to have to learn how to fix robots."


While I can see where you're coming from, I have to disagree. Piping might be easier to put together but without the knowledge of how the system is designed to work the system won't function properly. Robots will only effect manufactured housing, which is already a non issue. We are quite far away from robots capable of the portability required to do work on site. I doubt it will ever be viable to send out robots to do construction. You're talking about post singularity, as it would require a robot to think and adapt. If we ever reach this point, the entire world will change, and IMO, is not worth talking about.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

I found out my state Oklahoma does bust handyman and hacks all the time. I learned this while I was working in Tishamingo. Our problem here is there is more hacks than state investigators. We have 5 that cover the state. They need more man power. I heard story after story of bust they have done. There is just so many. This is do to self soldier, shark bites and anything else so simple to assemble. Heck the plumbing picture on lowes plumbing sign above the dept is a illegal trap. Hack employees telling people how to do stuff as pros that can will get them hurt or killed. Heck hey sell csst now. You know how many times I've seen people grab a compression fitting for copper and think its for csst. Someone's going to blow up their home. HO can buy a gas HWT and install it but can't buy a replacement valve. Hello!! Are they stupid? Government has to crack down on home improvement stores to help. We do all need to play a part in education I saw stuff as a inspector from hacks that almost killed people. We have to find a way maybe even start a fund for TV ads to educate vast people as to the dangers. Mike Homes gets on my nerves sometimes but the man is doing what we need to be doing Educating


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Plumberman911 said:


> I found out my state Oklahoma does bust handyman and hacks all the time. I learned this while I was working in Tishamingo. Our problem here is there is more hacks than state investigators. We have 5 that cover the state. They need more man power. I heard story after story of bust they have done. There is just so many. This is do to self soldier, shark bites and anything else so simple to assemble. Heck the plumbing picture on lowes plumbing sign above the dept is a illegal trap. Hack employees telling people how to do stuff as pros that can will get them hurt or killed. Heck hey sell csst now. You know how many times I've seen people grab a compression fitting for copper and think its for csst. Someone's going to blow up their home. HO can buy a gas HWT and install it but can't buy a replacement valve. Hello!! Are they stupid? Government has to crack down on home improvement stores to help. We do all need to play a part in education I saw stuff as a inspector from hacks that almost killed people. We have to find a way maybe even start a fund for TV ads to educate vast people as to the dangers. Mike Homes gets on my nerves sometimes but the man is doing what we need to be doing Educating


This is what I was getting at. I would be willing to contribute to a fund to educate customers, and crack down on government officials.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

While pvc may be a "dumbed down" material we all see diy's and hacks misuse of these materials by using pressure fittings on drains, funny thing though. Don't guess I've seen drainage material used on pressure, why do you think that is?
But this applies to supposed professionals as well. I just completed a remod by a "professional" that was unreal. New system, that I ripped out and replumbed.:thumbsup:
Thankyou, to this "professional" btw. Kachingggg


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> I think you have that one backwards. * I treat everyone with respect and in a professional manner, as do most of the plumbers I've worked with.* Doesn't change the fact the general public perceives us one step above janitors.


My experience is different than yours. 

PZ Plumbers . . . There isn't enough hours in the day to document the level of disrespect on the Zone. Seriously, do you think the behavior exhibited on PZ shows plumbers in a professional light?

The reason things won't change is because the vast majority are close minded and cannot agree on a middle ground. A whole lot of 'my way or the highway' going on IMO. 

I know more than a few plumbing business owners, and most have said they can count on one hand the plumbers that were worth having. So, I think it starts with the plumber. 

When one behaves with respect, one is more likely to get respect.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

Phat Cat said:


> My experience is different than yours.
> 
> PZ Plumbers . . . There isn't enough hours in the day to document the level of disrespect on the Zone. Seriously, do you think the behavior exhibited on PZ shows plumbers in a professional light?
> 
> ...


Thank you very much, PC. I appreciate your thoughts.

You must be tired after a presentation like that. May I get you something to sit on while rj or somebody gets you something to drink, please? 

Here, let me help you on with your coat. Wait! I'll get the door. 

You are most very welcome, ma'am. Have a nice evening. Watch your step as you go down the walk.

(Sound of door closing)

Gentlemen, what COULD she have been referring to? SURELY we don't have THAT problem within these revered walls.

:laughing:

All in fun, PC.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

I know you were exaggerating, but just imagine if all plumbers had that attitude, toned down of course, with customers?

I do believe the plumber would get more respect. :yes: Now, I'm not saying that customers are always right or that all customers are appreciative of the extra mile, but it has been my experience that the majority are. There will always be azzholes (customers & plumbers alike). Let the professional plumber take the high road with the azzhole customers.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> I think you have that one backwards. I treat everyone with respect and in a professional manner, as do most of the plumbers I've worked with. Doesn't change the fact the general public perceives us one step above janitors.


I have had that feeling myself on multiple occasions. 
On the same note however, I often felt my past employer looked down on us "plumbers". He was pro HVAC which is fine. But the respect for us just was not there.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

RW Plumbing said:


> I think you have that one backwards. I treat everyone with respect and in a professional manner, as do most of the plumbers I've worked with. Doesn't change the fact the general public perceives us one step above janitors.


 
I've never had this problem, ever. I get along with just about everyone I work for. but then again I look like an ex-nfl football player that can throw anyone through a wall. 


But in reality, there's no physical prowess left in me, just a beat down body putting my time in. I take from the go in the manner of speaking that I have control of the experience by everything I say, everything I do. 

This type of control allows for you to make sure from the minute you answer the phone the one who takes charge. 

This is not a brutus mentality either. It's a form of discipline that you enact and provide for both the service provider the experience you want the best results from. Being stern is a favorable trait. Let someone climb over that and you'll know how the relationship goes at that point. 

I know my profession, residential plumbing is very easy. This is why I won't plumb a skyscraper, or medical facility with 400 bathrooms. It's not my strong point. I do what serves me best in relationship to my expertise and dart away from the rest. 

If a customer wants to see who the boss is, they'll get it from me in attitude. Respect me and it's a wonderful experience, like taking your family to disney.


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

Getting this post back on topic.

A great many consumers can not be educated, simply because that is not what they want. In order for someone to gain knowledge, one must want it first. Many of these cheapo customers want to "_just make it work as cheaply as possible_". There is no one size fits all for clients and so you should treat each one the way you yourself would like to be treated. If they don't listen, or could care less, well you have your peace of mind and move on.

I try and mirror the medical field in the way I handle clients. Treat the home visit like you are the doctor and they are the patient. They are nervous they can't afford the treatment. They are scared having a complete stranger in their private areas (bathroom, bedroom, etc.). They may sometimes doubt you and may even sometimes believe they already know what is wrong and just need you to do x,y,z. They got their internet education already. Your job as the professional is to put them at ease. Make them feel comfortable with you and your abilities. Once this is achieved, the rest just falls into place. The money and respect we want comes when *YOU* do these things.

At the end of the day, I want to be able to say that I did the best I could. I know some clients will not be changed or take what I have. This is not my fault if I do what is right, it's their fault.


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

RW Plumbing said:


> While I can see where you're coming from, I have to disagree. Piping might be easier to put together but without the knowledge of how the system is designed to work the system won't function properly. Robots will only effect manufactured housing, which is already a non issue. We are quite far away from robots capable of the portability required to do work on site. I doubt it will ever be viable to send out robots to do construction. You're talking about post singularity, as it would require a robot to think and adapt. If we ever reach this point, the entire world will change, and IMO, is not worth talking about.


Okay... Maybe I got a little freaked out about robots building things... I don't quite agree that it can only happen 'post singularity', but after reading extensively on contour crafting, it is still a good way away.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

mightypipe said:


> Okay... Maybe I got a little freaked out about robots building things... I don't quite agree that it can only happen 'post singularity', but after reading extensively on contour crafting, it is still a good way away.


There gonna be a " Da Vince " machine for us to handle plumbing problems?


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

This Old House......Youtube......Hombre Depot.......Blowes........they all do a wonderful job of educating the consumer.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

You guys represent the best of the trade. You wouldn't be on this forum if you weren't because if you weren't you wouldn't be bothered to come here and talk with like minded professionals. Unfortunately, I fear you are in the minority


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Strike that. Fortunately you are in the minority. Less competition :laughing:


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> I know you were exaggerating, but just imagine if all plumbers had that attitude, toned down of course, with customers?
> 
> I do believe the plumber would get more respect. :yes: Now, I'm not saying that customers are always right or that all customers are appreciative of the extra mile, but it has been my experience that the majority are. There will always be azzholes (customers & plumbers alike). Let the professional plumber take the high road with the azzhole customers.


I think you're missing the mark I'm trying to hit. The respect for our trade has nothing to do with appearance, or customer service. Most doctors, and lawyers aren't very nice or customer focused. There is a built in respect for their craft though. The level of knowledge, and degrees are what is respected. Plumbing used to have a level of respect similar to that. Now, all I hear is jokes about butt cracks and how stupid we are. Trades used to be viewed as a necessary part of society and an important one. 

This isn't because we are dirty. Plumbing has always been a dirty job. It's because everyone thinks they can do our job. I have an equivalent of an engineering degree with a masters license. In this state, it's a literal equivalent. Since handymen abound, the whole trade suffers. The problem is people have no idea what separates me from nacho the handyman. Care to venture a guess? It isn't uniforms, although I have those. It isn't excellent customer service, although I have that as well. These are both things nacho can bring to the table as well. 

The thing that separates me from them is knowledge, plain and simple. They have no idea what they are doing. They don't know a potentially deadly situation if it smacked them in the face. I've seen handymen disable T&P valves, cross contaminate water sources, create serious sewer gas issues, incorrect atmospheric venting creating CO poisoning and much more. I know this is the difference, you know this is a major difference but the average person has no idea. 

We need to shelve the talk about customer service, or appearance. This is was separates different PLUMBING COMPANIES, not us from homeowners and handymen. If customers were made aware the danger potential of having hacks alter their plumbing system things would be better. If there was a real system of enforcement instead of just collecting revenues of people doing things right, respect would climb.

I've ran into many doctors who weren't very professional, same with lawyers. What happens if you start your own doctoring business, you go to jail. Same thing happens when you start your own lawyering business, even though its pretty rare someone will die from poor legal advice. What happens when you do plumbing work if you aren't qualified? Most of the time, NOTHING. This is the failure. The law says, it's a crime to perform unlicensed plumbing. It's enforced very little. These people advertise, they aren't hiding. We need some sort of organization to find and punish these people.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

RW Plumbing said:


> I think you're missing the mark I'm trying to hit. The respect for our trade has nothing to do with appearance, or customer service. Most doctors, and lawyers aren't very nice or customer focused. There is a built in respect for their craft though. The level of knowledge, and degrees are what is respected. Plumbing used to have a level of respect similar to that. Now, all I hear is jokes about butt cracks and how stupid we are. Trades used to be viewed as a necessary part of society and an important one.
> 
> This isn't because we are dirty. Plumbing has always been a dirty job. It's because everyone thinks they can do our job. I have an equivalent of an engineering degree with a masters license. In this state, it's a literal equivalent. Since handymen abound, the whole trade suffers. The problem is people have no idea what separates me from nacho the handyman. Care to venture a guess? It isn't uniforms, although I have those. It isn't excellent customer service, although I have that as well. These are both things nacho can bring to the table as well.
> 
> ...


 
Were not doctors or lawyers were plumbers ,,

State Govs cant handle handing out drivers licenses, and you want them to form a Plumbing Police ,,,,, never gonna happen 

If you see a hack, call and report it , if that doesn't get you anywhere write a letter to the Governor and the SOS......that should do it :laughing:


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Relic said:


> Getting this post back on topic.
> 
> A great many consumers can not be educated, simply because that is not what they want. In order for someone to gain knowledge, one must want it first. Many of these cheapo customers want to "just make it work as cheaply as possible". There is no one size fits all for clients and so you should treat each one the way you yourself would like to be treated. If they don't listen, or could care less, well you have your peace of mind and move on.
> 
> ...


You couldn't be more right. When I get in front of a customer they understand why I charge what I charge, and the difference between a pro and a hack. I'm talking about ways we can educate people on a larger scale. I think the hacks doing work is a bigger problem for everyone customers included than we even realize.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

GREENPLUM said:


> Were not doctors or lawyers were plumbers ,,
> 
> State Govs cant handle handing out drivers licenses, and you want them to form a Plumbing Police ,,,,, never gonna happen
> 
> If you see a hack, call and report it , if that doesn't get you anywhere write a letter to the Governor and the SOS......that should do it :laughing:


Well we can just sit back and do nothing. That's working great for us so far. If there was some sort of organization putting pressure on the state it would happen. We aren't doctors or lawyers, that's true. It's called an example. They have enforcement. I would be willing to pay for a plumbing police. I bet most plumbing companies would pay a couple hundred a year for one as well. Instead of sitting on my arse saying its never gonna happen, I would rather MAKE something happen. 

If you don't want to do anything, fine. You've already stated it you don't believe it's your job to educate consumers. If you can't see unlicensed guys screwing you, fine. Keep doing what you're doing. I'm going to figure out a way to combat this shiot. Lobby groups get what they want all the time. Raise enough coin on a state level and you can possibly see some changes. Handymen don't, and won't ever get a lobby group. Even the box stores wouldn't fight it, the law is already in existence. We just need it enforced. So sit back and relax while people who care do something about it.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

RW Plumbing said:


> Well we can just sit back and do nothing. That's working great for us so far. If there was some sort of organization putting pressure on the state it would happen. We aren't doctors or lawyers, that's true. It's called an example. They have enforcement. I would be willing to pay for a plumbing police. I bet most plumbing companies would pay a couple hundred a year for one as well. Instead of sitting on my arse saying its never gonna happen, I would rather MAKE something happen.
> 
> If you don't want to do anything, fine. You've already stated it you don't believe it's your job to educate consumers. If you can't see unlicensed guys screwing you, fine. Keep doing what you're doing. I'm going to figure out a way to combat this shiot. Lobby groups get what they want all the time. Raise enough coin on a state level and you can possibly see some changes. Handymen don't, and won't ever get a lobby group. Even the box stores wouldn't fight it, the law is already in existence. We just need it enforced. So sit back and relax while people who care do something about it.


 
Please , I challenge you to do what you seem so passionate about

you wont get any money from me, but I'm excited to see the changes that could take place 

please start a thread about this topic and prove that you arnt sitting on yer arse <--yer words, show us the changes that were made, and real enforcement that is happening cause of this movement 

what do they say .... I'm from Missouri , Show Me!


FWIW- I hope you do well and "change" the whole world , but I feel like Ive seen this movie before


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

RW Plumbing said:


> Well we can just sit back and do nothing. That's working great for us so far. If there was some sort of organization putting pressure on the state it would happen. We aren't doctors or lawyers, that's true. It's called an example. They have enforcement. I would be willing to pay for a plumbing police. I bet most plumbing companies would pay a couple hundred a year for one as well. Instead of sitting on my arse saying its never gonna happen, I would rather MAKE something happen.
> 
> If you don't want to do anything, fine. You've already stated it you don't believe it's your job to educate consumers. If you can't see unlicensed guys screwing you, fine. Keep doing what you're doing. I'm going to figure out a way to combat this shiot. Lobby groups get what they want all the time. Raise enough coin on a state level and you can possibly see some changes. Handymen don't, and won't ever get a lobby group. Even the box stores wouldn't fight it, the law is already in existence. We just need it enforced. So sit back and relax while people who care do something about it.


I agree in principal with what you are saying here... But... The big box 'DIY' stores would and do fight enforcement of these laws. Their political action committees do contribute money to local campaign funds, who choose to look the other way on enforcement of laws that would cause them to loose money.
If you go into Home Depot or lowes and watch their 'contractor desk' for and hour, it is hack utopia in there!!!

Two cities in the Phoenix metro area have recently dropped their requirement for permits on water heaters, and other 'minor' plumbing installations on the basis that it costs too much money for the manpower to do the inspections. These are the kinds of officials they are buying... Oh sorry, I meant 'helping to elect' these days.

This is called being 'business friendly' out here, and it will continue. This was more the point of my first post to this thread, before I got derailed by robots. 

I wish that we could rise up with a PAC and raise enough money to fight this, but I don't think so. Business is what makes the whole world work, and is built on a model of expansion and growth to an endless horizon. 

I think what we can do is cut out a niche in the current business model, and prosper, while flowing in the basic direction of the unstoppable river.
Report hacks... Educate our own customers as much as they are willing to be educated... Follow-up on reports about hacks... Educate ourselves and adapt to the times... Present ourselves as honorable professionals... And hopefully sock away enough dough to retire on.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

You have to start by convincing your state legislature that a problem exists and that the so called right to work may be ok for some trades but sanitary plumbing is too important to the public safety to allow non licensed hacks to do. Then you need to lean on your state plumbing board as well as the local inspectors and make sure everyone is on board. I hope that the sleeping giant can be awakened but it just might take a major health crisis to open folks eyes. I always tell my students that in the plumbing profession there is no "good enough, there is only perfect". Good enough gets folks hurt, killed or costs money. And that's where we need to be in the public eye. You want to educate then the first step is to differentiate our "profession" from the rest of the trades. Now on to who can help with this PR project. The Phcc has the infrastructure, the industry connections and the money to handle it but, they need a very strong push from the membership so.....those that are not members, join. And then we begin with emails, letters, phone calls to our local and national chapters and we lay our concerns and agenda out and then act on it. I let my membership lapse a few years ago but this thread has reinvigorated me and I rejoined about an hour ago. I will start my own personal lobbying campaign with the Phcc tomorrow.


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

nhmaster3015 said:


> You have to start by convincing your state legislature that a problem exists and that the so called right to work may be ok for some trades but sanitary plumbing is too important to the public safety to allow non licensed hacks to do. Then you need to lean on your state plumbing board as well as the local inspectors and make sure everyone is on board. I hope that the sleeping giant can be awakened but it just might take a major health crisis to open folks eyes. I always tell my students that in the plumbing profession there is no "good enough, there is only perfect". Good enough gets folks hurt, killed or costs money. And that's where we need to be in the public eye. You want to educate then the first step is to differentiate our "profession" from the rest of the trades. Now on to who can help with this PR project. The Phcc has the infrastructure, the industry connections and the money to handle it but, they need a very strong push from the membership so.....those that are not members, join. And then we begin with emails, letters, phone calls to our local and national chapters and we lay our concerns and agenda out and then act on it. I let my membership lapse a few years ago but this thread has reinvigorated me and I rejoined about an hour ago. I will start my own personal lobbying campaign with the Phcc tomorrow.


I am in the union and PHCC in Arizona and they are fighting the fight. If something is good for the trade and the contractors in it that's where I will be. If your PHCC is not doing anything join and change it. It's only as good as its members since it is member ran. 
If there is something better on a state and national level for our trade let me know and I will do my part there as well.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

RW I liked what you had to say and agree. I too would pay money for a fund to get something done. You can have free enterprise an all kinds of jobs. But the states if you have a license right now, punish us as holders more than they do hacks. Why? We forget to buy a permit or let a apprentice license laps. You'd think we robbed there last donut. Our state goes after them. But like our largest city, they won't do nothing. Because their afraid to enforce a law in place because of lawsuits. Yes, all cities need a police force to prosecute hacks. Never say never stranger things have happened. It just takes enough noise to get it taken serious. Our nation sets the path on health and safety for sewer/water protection. That's why there's the UPC, IPC and other codes. Laws, test and licenses. To insure that the health of the nation from major cities to rural towns to private homes are all protected. Billions of dollars have been spent to set all this in motion. I believe the government may have lost focus on how bad box stores and hacks are hurting what they ( gov ) have set in motion. We just need to be in numbers and a loud voice to get their attention to help them see what is happening. One point was made that something major bad had to happen first for action to be taken. Sadly hats sometimes true. What 4/5 people have to die at a intersection to get a stop light. But why should we sit and wait for something bad to happen when we know about it and can try to fix it first. Does it really hurt to try?


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> You have to start by convincing your state legislature that a problem exists and that the so called right to work may be ok for some trades but sanitary plumbing is too important to the public safety to allow non licensed hacks to do. Then you need to lean on your state plumbing board as well as the local inspectors and make sure everyone is on board. I hope that the sleeping giant can be awakened but it just might take a major health crisis to open folks eyes. I always tell my students that in the plumbing profession there is no "good enough, there is only perfect". Good enough gets folks hurt, killed or costs money. And that's where we need to be in the public eye. You want to educate then the first step is to differentiate our "profession" from the rest of the trades. Now on to who can help with this PR project. The Phcc has the infrastructure, the industry connections and the money to handle it but, they need a very strong push from the membership so.....those that are not members, join. And then we begin with emails, letters, phone calls to our local and national chapters and we lay our concerns and agenda out and then act on it. I let my membership lapse a few years ago but this thread has reinvigorated me and I rejoined about an hour ago. I will start my own personal lobbying campaign with the Phcc tomorrow.


Here you go greenplumb. I just did the something. If I got one other person excited to help change things it's a start. I'm actually working on letters to send to every listed plumbing company in SE WI. Saying we all need to band together and start changing things. It will have the list of who to call to report hack work. I will also be contacting my local PHCC. It's about time someone cared about doing something, anything. 

You hope I succeed yet you do not care to do anything yourself. You don't hope I succeed, you don't care either way. Please do us both a favor and call it like it is. I don't have to show you anything. The fact that I'm doing something about the problem is enough for me.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Just a little dig at you conservative's. it's your party that has pushed "business friendly, right to work and the vilification of the unions" all of which has been hurting your business and your reputation. Not that I'm jumping to the democrat party because they are just as out of touch but they have been more on our side as small businessmen than the republicans have ever been. End of thread drift but maybe, if you are planning on lobbying, the local democrat rep might be a good place to start.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Just a little dig at you conservative's. it's your party that has pushed "business friendly, right to work and the vilification of the unions" all of which has been hurting your business and your reputation. Not that I'm jumping to the democrat party because they are just as out of touch but they have been more on our side as small businessmen than the republicans have ever been. End of thread drift but maybe, if you are planning on lobbying, the local democrat rep might be a good place to start.


I'm all for business friendly. Right to work is fine too. If you have the qualifications to do the work you should be able to. The problem comes from people who are unqualified to do the work. This isn't a union thing, and republicans don't promote handymen doing plumbing. In this state you need a license to do the work. Have it go ahead, if not don't touch. Back to topic.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I could rebut but that's probably a better topic for the p&r forum and I think this thread is too important to muck up too. :thumbsup:


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

RW Plumbing said:


> Here you go greenplumb. I just did the something. If I got one other person excited to help change things it's a start. I'm actually working on letters to send to every listed plumbing company in SE WI. Saying we all need to band together and start changing things. It will have the list of who to call to report hack work. I will also be contacting my local PHCC. It's about time someone cared about doing something, anything.
> 
> You hope I succeed yet you do not care to do anything yourself. You don't hope I succeed, you don't care either way. Please do us both a favor and call it like it is. I don't have to show you anything. The fact that I'm doing something about the problem is enough for me.


 
whatever helps you sleep at night

how do you know that i havent been down this road before, and witnessed the outcome


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I could rebut but that's probably a better topic for the p&r forum and I think this thread is too important to muck up too. :thumbsup:


NH, why don't you just train yourself to say "politicians" on place of either there word "Republicans" or "Democrats." This country needs to move away from their divisions and while we are talking about one person doing what they can to hopefully change the world I think you're a good candidate for throwing aside partisanship. Start here on PZ and move up from there.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

You saying you is a quitter? :laughing: get back on that horse and ride :thumbup:


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

Think locally, you will not have any success on a national level. Start with a petition that every shop in town can sign. Plumbers, electricians, carpenters, painters, etc. all of them signs a petition and submit this formally to the state commissioner. This should be read to the legislature during open session and will apply pressure on those house members that serve these districts.

This is what we do all the time, it's a great and mostly free way to get attention from the news media. I've seen petitions snowball into highly debated bills before the state legislature and even get signed into law. Local politics is much easier to navigate than national politics. You just have to want it badly enough.

I used to be pretty active with my locals political arm. We'd even go to to the many bases around DC and solicit vets. There is nothing more a scary then a veteran to the politicians. They all want to desperately be seen as pro military. We'd set up tents at air shows with information for military families for so when they leave the service, they could get training and a job. I'm just offering up ideas that are easy to do and don't require a big budget.

Sorry if this post is disjointed, not thinking clearly today for some reason.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

GREENPLUM said:


> whatever helps you sleep at night
> 
> how do you know that i havent been down this road before, and witnessed the outcome


If at first you don't succeed, try try again. There are two kinds of people in this world, ones that change things, and ones that don't. The first kind may not always succeed, but they keep on trying. The second kind may try once, or many times but eventually give up. People have done much more amazing things than stop hacks from doing plumbing. I don't aspire to change the world, only to raise awareness to existing laws and enforce a law already on the books. 

If my state starting issuing the fines they supposedly issue for unlicensed work, the word would get out, and the work would slow down. My goal is to get the fine changed from some meaningless government fine, to a criminal action. Even at a misdemeanor, the ticket couldn't be shrugged off. They would have to pay it. Then, the fine would mean something.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Relic said:


> Think locally, you will not have any success on a national level. Start with a petition that every shop in town can sign. Plumbers, electricians, carpenters, painters, etc. all of them signs a petition and submit this formally to the state commissioner. This should be read to the legislature during open session and will apply pressure on those house members that serve these districts.
> 
> This is what we do all the time, it's a great and mostly free way to get attention from the news media. I've seen petitions snowball into highly debated bills before the state legislature and even get signed into law. Local politics is much easier to navigate than national politics. You just have to want it badly enough.
> 
> ...


I'm planning on sending a letter to every plumbing company around here. A petition wouldn't be a bad thing to include. Sign and return this letter or email your signature to this address. If I can get it from a civil fine to a criminal action, even a misdemeanor then local law enforcement would pick up enforcement. They love issuing tickets, I can give them a reason to write a whole bunch more.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Go on Craigslist and find all the ads from unlicensed hacks. Forward them to your state board. I do that a couple times a month and they do go after them.


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## Tim`s Plumbing (Jan 17, 2012)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Go on Craigslist and find all the ads from unlicensed hacks. Forward them to your state board. I do that a couple times a month and they do go after them.


 :thumbsup::thumbup:


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Go on Craigslist and find all the ads from unlicensed hacks. Forward them to your state board. I do that a couple times a month and they do go after them.


That will do nothing with the civil forfeiture penalty now. It's too easy to simply not pay. Making it a criminal action, the ticket will follow you and you will have to pay or eventually find yourself in jail. I need to figure out how to write a law. I will be talking to my lawyer this week for tips. I will then write a petition with the proposed law on it. I'm going to hit up the unions, supply houses and send out letters. With enough signatures, they will have to take it seriously.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Yep, but the ads all come down pretty fast


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Yep, but the ads all come down pretty fast


To be put right back up the next day. I would rather the local LEO be able to hold a sting. Call these clowns up and have them do some plumbing, then slap them with a 1k fine. Cops love generating revenue by stuff like this. They sit on the freeway and wait for speeders just to write revenue increasing tickets. They wouldn't even have to wait. It would be like shooting fish in a barrel.


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## alban1an (Mar 13, 2013)

I agree with RW Plumbing and commend him in his ideas. Where there is a will, there is a way. In New Jersey there are in excess of ~ 6000 active licenses in 21 counties. Most of the township inspectors work part time in multiple towns to amount to 50-60k a year salary, since the local governments don't have the funds to employ them full time.
If you had 1 inspector covering 2 counties, which is really easy to do, (it can be a private firm, set up by licensed members annual membership funds), going around busting hacks, and bait the Craig's list ads, that would necessitate 11 such inspectors, each making an annual salary of $60,000 for a total of $660,000. Divide that by each active licensee it would come out to $110 a year. 
I would imagine each licensed plumber benefits from such a service and $110 a year just for this service is not too high of a price to pay. Not to mention the amount of money the towns/state would generate from the issuing of such fines.

RW Plumbing was right again before when he mentioned that we were missing the target. It is inherent upon us to find a way to financially punish those who have no credentials / license to do our work. 
I personally have written to the board twice to report general construction companies advertising "plumbing" in their full page color ads, after first calling the number directly as a professional courtesy, and being told to f... off, I was forced to notify the board. In the first instance the guy was fined (in NJ is $2,500) and next month his ad did not have the word "plumbing", in the second case, the company hired a "bona fide" plumbing contractor to cover his work with his license, which brings me to my final point:
that there are licensed guys out there, and they know who they are, who due to the slow economy, or just greed for extra money, "lend" their license out to cover the permits and inspection for someone else's work, in exchange for a few hundred dollars. That in turn lowers the prices overall, hurts the regular guys who do everything legit, and also hurts these licensed guys who "loan" their licenses in more ways they can imagine:
1. they stand to lose their license if caught, and never get it again, therefore losing their means of livelihood, 
2. they are liable for all the shoddy work the regular contractor/hack did, and they stand to be sued, loose their business, house, savings etc, because when somethign goes awry, the homeowner's lawyer's first question is to find out who did the work (or who can he pin it on, obviously the licensee), and the 2nd question would be to find out how much is this person worth, so he can appropriately sue your pants off. 

Is anyone here one of those guys who loans out their license? I would hope not, otherwise we are all wasting time blaming the hacks when there are some of us to be blamed too.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I agree with cat about plumbers respecting the customer. A large part of respect is trust how many of you trust the customer enough that they have the money to pay you and they will make the right decisions? It is in the threads that are written that the majority of you do not trust your customers. Without trust true respect cannot be given.

2nd it is up to you the plumber to inform the customer. When you refuse to inform the customer they will continuously make bad decisions. You have to be willing to take the proper amount of time to educate the customer and give them information. The information plumbers give is what the work will amount too. Wrong information, you need to start giving the right information.

How will the product and service affect their life? What will the product and service do for them? What can they expect from the product and service? Lastly, why you should do the work.


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

It has to start with the guy in the mirror. You the owner has to make the first move. Then when you get the chance to hire people. Then hire a professional plumber that has a track record. Do your work and check on the referances he lists. Keep your trucks clean and not causing a oil slick in their driveways, uniforms, clean people, as much as people kick it.. use flat rate so they understand what they are getting. When you stop to think about it. We are doctors for homes, and when they are sick we have to treat it and heal it. 

Back in the early 00s i had the chance to do a tv show here in Phoenix. I first thought how i could project the plumbing industry in a positive light. It was ok and it got some good feedback. But where i got the most complaints..The supply house from other plumbers. They would make fun of it and act like we were not real plumbers, even though most knew i was and had the history. It seemed like they didnt care and thought it was a joke. We ended it after 2 yrs and another plumbing company filled our spot and same thing..Everyone thought it was a joke and made fun of them. 

So...unless your going to take the arrows.. nothing will move forward in changing the way people view us. We need to band together and promote how we are the first line of defence to the public. I got no clue how to do it, except to do what i feel is the best for the industry i have been part of for the last 27 yrs. I wish i had the answer to it...


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## JPL (Feb 8, 2013)

alban1an said:


> I agree with RW Plumbing and commend him in his ideas. Where there is a will, there is a way. In New Jersey there are in excess of ~ 6000 active licenses in 21 counties. Most of the township inspectors work part time in multiple towns to amount to 50-60k a year salary, since the local governments don't have the funds to employ them full time.
> If you had 1 inspector covering 2 counties, which is really easy to do, (it can be a private firm, set up by licensed members annual membership funds), going around busting hacks, and bait the Craig's list ads, that would necessitate 11 such inspectors, each making an annual salary of $60,000 for a total of $660,000. Divide that by each active licensee it would come out to $110 a year.
> I would imagine each licensed plumber benefits from such a service and $110 a year just for this service is not too high of a price to pay. Not to mention the amount of money the towns/state would generate from the issuing of such fines.
> 
> ...


Somebodys gonna write you up for not posting an Intro.


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