# My work is my work



## mtl723 (Mar 31, 2012)

So I worked for a company for several years and let them know 10 months in advanced that i was going to go out on my own. A couple of months go by and they let me go. All the pics they put on their website is work that is done 100% by me. Do I have the right to let them know that they are advertising my work with some of them even being my customers and I am going to use these on my website. Just need your alls opinion


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## eddiecalder (Jul 15, 2008)

If they were paying you as an employee its the companies work as far as I know.


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## bjmi007 (Apr 28, 2012)

*its the co. pic u r a worker.*

they pay u to do those job, those r there pic, unless u work for free then it is ur pic, if u get pay everything belong to them, if u put those pic on ur website without their ok they can sued. I would sued if im the boss. Why not just get ur own new pic from the job u going to get?


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

eddiecalder said:


> If they were paying you as an employee its the companies work as far as I know.


This...and the same applies to the customers.



I've always thought a 2 week notice was generous. Why would you give a ten month notice?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

mtl723 said:


> ... some of them even being my customers and I am going to use these on my website. Just need your alls opinion


Are you kidding? You were an employee. They were not YOUR customers.

If a former employee put a company's photos from when they were an employee on their website to advertise their new business, any first year law student would eat him for breakfast and poop him out for lunch.

Real businesses don't take shortcuts. You wanted to get out there and run a business so get your own pics and get your own customers.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

As far as letting you go is concerned, we had this same exact scenario with an employee that planned to start his on company. He made it no secret that he was going to open his own shop. Someday you will understand what that really means. It is like saying from this minute forward I am using the money you pay me to become your competitor. In general that is fine with me. After all, I started somewhere too. 

However, after a couple of months went by the employee's performance changed for the worse. He was clearly not focused on his job any longer. I had an unexpected opportunity to hire a plumber that wanted to work with us. A business decision had to be made for the future of my business. The employee was all pissed off because he thought I screwed him. It is absolutely laughable. He wanted to plan his business future but was shocked that I would do the same. He thought I was supposed to let him limp along as a half baked employee to support his business.

He thought wrong.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I had the same problem once where an employee was going around behind my back trying to take my contracts.... Big backfire for him as my customers told me and it was grounds for immediate dismissal ...

Send him backing .... As soon as I found out

Bad enough I have competition on the outside of my business but it will not be tolerated inside my business


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

if you took the pics, you own the copyright to them, but you have to prove that you took them.

now if you had a legal agreement first stating otherwise, i am not so sure.


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## CPT (Aug 13, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> Are you kidding? You were an employee. They were not YOUR customers.
> 
> If a former employee put a company's photos from when they were an employee on their website to advertise their new business, any first year law student would eat him for breakfast and poop him out for lunch.
> 
> Real businesses don't take shortcuts. You wanted to get out there and run a business so get your own pics and get your own customers.


What he said.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Bayside500 said:


> if you took the pics, you own the copyright to them, but you have to prove that you took them.
> 
> now if you had a legal agreement first stating otherwise, i am not so sure.


Not if taken in the course of performing tasks assigned by his employer. Also not if documenting employer assigned tasks. Employees DO NOT own ANYTHING in the business in which they are employed. 

Exceptions would be allowed if there is a contractual agreement between the two parties. Even that would be subject to legal scrutiny. Contracts that violate employee and/or employee legally established rights are not worth the paper they are written on.

For instance, a staff photographer might have a written agreement with his employer regarding the ownership and use of photos he takes.

An employee cannot legally claim ownership to jobs, customers, or documentation that he performed as an employee.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

johnlewismcleod said:


> I've always thought a 2 week notice was generous. Why would you give a ten month notice?


THis

Why 10 months? U had Master test around that same time?


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> Not if taken in the course of performing tasks assigned by his employer. Also not if documenting employer assigned tasks. Employees DO NOT own ANYTHING in the business in which they are employed.
> 
> Exceptions would be allowed if there is a contractual agreement between the two parties. Even that would be subject to legal scrutiny. Contracts that violate employee and/or employee legally established rights are not worth the paper they are written on.
> 
> ...


it seems you may be right on this..........

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ09.pdf

i stand corrected


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

I wonder what mtl would say if he got a call about warranty work on his work after he left the company?


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

More importantly what's the website I want to see the pictures


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

I'm guessing that mtl's former shop is one of those commission work shops. If I'm right this is just another example of why that practice is a scourge on our industry.

For plumbers that work for commission the incentive is not only to behave unprofessionally and unethically in the field, but it confuses the relationship between plumber and shop: every man is out for themselves.

It's a short step to the frame of mind mtl is displaying here.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

DesertOkie said:


> I wonder what mtl would say if he got a call about warranty work on his work after he left the company?


:laughing::laughing::laughing:

Wasn't my job

I didn't do the work

I have no clue what you are talking about

Who Me ?


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

johnlewismcleod said:


> I'm guessing that mtl's former shop is one of those commission work shops. If I'm right this is just another example of why that practice is a scourge on our industry.
> 
> For plumbers that work for commission the incentive is not only to behave unprofessionally and unethically in the field, but it confuses the relationship between plumber and shop: every man is out for themselves.
> 
> It's a short step to the frame of mind mtl is displaying here.


I ran a commission based shop in California, and I have to agree with you on unethical behavior.
It was a constant battle , to keep sales up and not allowing the plumbers to run unchecked.

What seemed to clean things up was setting a ZERO complaint policy.
If a customer called with a complaint I made it right and the plumber responsible lost the commission on any refunds given back to the customer.


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

What about repeat business for these shops.
I know a few plumbers that I would be totally shocked if they got repeat business after poor work then being nailed on price.
Its a fine line and its hard not to cross it when money and greed get involved.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

johnlewismcleod said:


> I'm guessing that mtl's former shop is one of those commission work shops. If I'm right this is just another example of why that practice is a scourge on our industry.
> 
> For plumbers that work for commission the incentive is not only to behave unprofessionally and unethically in the field, but it confuses the relationship between plumber and shop: every man is out for themselves.
> 
> It's a short step to the frame of mind mtl is displaying here.



It always comes down to the person. It's like saying DC makes politicians dishonest. It's more like dishonest people are drawn to politics.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

mark kiernan said:


> What about repeat business for these shops.
> I know a few plumbers that I would be totally shocked if they got repeat business after poor work then being nailed on price.
> Its a fine line and its hard not to cross it when money and greed get involved.


We ran about 60 % repeat with commercial accounts and about 40 % on residential.

As you said it is a fine line and a constant battle to attempt to keep everyone happy.


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

Being cheap on price does not mean your undercutting or living on the bread line it may mean that his over head is real low.
If the price is right and everyone is happy then its all good.
Yes being in business is hard enough but because you have been in business for say ten years and and managed to screw everyone over you have done work for you will soon find your business model may fail as repeat customers will not be a repeat, once bitten twice shy.
Give good service at a good price.
Eaxmple, two shops do a water main burst, 2 foot dig depth on the lawn.
Both shops take approx 3 hours, shop #1 charges $600. Shop #2 charges $2000.
Customer pays and is happy with repair. Shop #1 will be recomended every time and shop #2 may not be recomended and will always be remembered for being high in price and will always be remember for doing so, it takes a long time to build a good customer base and one bad review to finish you.
Its a good thing a lot of people have other irons in the fire.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I consider my clients as my clients; I also consider Bill’s business my business. How Bill goes I go. Saying this if something was to happen and I was no longer employed by Bill those same clients I called mine would revert back to Bill. What the client actually purchased is the brand and the brand is Bill. The clients purchased his name, reputation, and his service strategies.

The only thing I did was help build that brand to the best of my ability. I only own what I brought to this company and that is me and my tools. What I received is worth more than what I brought into the company and I get to keep that education.


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

Richard Hilliard said:


> I consider my clients as my clients; I also consider Bill&#146;s business my business. How Bill goes I go. Saying this if something was to happen and I was no longer employed by Bill those same clients I called mine would revert back to Bill. What the client actually purchased is the brand and the brand is Bill. The clients purchased his name, reputation, and his service strategies.
> 
> The only thing I did was help build that brand to the best of my ability. I only own what I brought to this company and that is me and my tools. What I received is worth more than what I brought into the company and I get to keep that education.


Most customers already know what they want fixed when they call a plumber, in some respect.
We do educate them on why we do it the way we do.
I have seen expert sales men in peoples home running their mouths on how great business A is and why they need all this extra work.
Just offer great service with great price and be polite, get a good cpa and start building the business.
I sat in on one of mr hillards web chat meets and it was very informative so please don't think I'm poking you richard.
I have had my business in the USA for three years now, before I moved to the usa I did email a lot of companies in the usa offering my services.
No offers so I went it alone.
I have worked long and hard for what I have got since I started and I am NOT sitting at home needing work.
Infact I have to much at the moment that I'm considering giving some pretty good jobs away as I don't have the time as I'm booked untill feb next year.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> I ran a commission based shop in California, and I have to agree with you on unethical behavior.
> It was a constant battle , to keep sales up and not allowing the plumbers to run unchecked.
> 
> What seemed to clean things up was setting a ZERO complaint policy.
> If a customer called with a complaint I made it right and the plumber responsible lost the commission on any refunds given back to the customer.





DesertOkie said:


> It always comes down to the person. It's like saying DC makes politicians dishonest. It's more like dishonest people are drawn to politics.


With all due respect, I think your missed my point (mostly because I wasn't very clear ).

With a commission based shop all the plumbers are treated basically as independent contractors. They treat the customers as "shop referrals" and get what they can out of each call.

This system will naturally work against team mentality and undermine loyalty to the shop owner producing just the type of attitude displayed by the OP: "why not cut out the "middleman"(shop owner) and take "my" customers to my own shop?"

There are lots of other problems with the commissioned shop as well, but I was referring specifically to this issue.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

johnlewismcleod said:


> With all due respect, I think your missed my point (mostly because I wasn't very clear ).
> 
> With a commission based shop all the plumbers are treated basically as independent contractors. They treat the customers as "shop referrals" and get what they can out of each call.
> 
> ...


I think his my customer mentality comes from him not knowing what being a business owner is like. A belief that he is the company and it could not run without him. I prefer to call it the "you didn't build that" syndrome. 

He will get the rude awakening and see where all that money goes.:laughing:


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## mtl723 (Mar 31, 2012)

I think some of you got it all wrong. What I am talking about they are my customers. They have followed me from company to company. If they aren't my customers then why am I doing their work right now. Ummm. Don't take stuff the wrong way. I would never steal a customer but if I give you tons of business and you screw me then hell no I'm gonna take all of them back. Even the not so good ones.


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## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

Last I checked the company paid for your screw ups, so ya figure that one out.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

mtl723 said:


> I think some of you got it all wrong. What I am talking about they are my customers. They have followed me from company to company. If they aren't my customers then why am I doing their work right now. Ummm. Don't take stuff the wrong way. I would never steal a customer but if I give you tons of business and you screw me then hell no I'm gonna take all of them back. Even the not so good ones.


I think your OP was pretty clear :yes:...most of us just don't agree with you, is all :no:


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## mtl723 (Mar 31, 2012)

Not a commission based company. I was paid hourly. We had talked about me getting my masters and joining in on the partnership but then they screw me so I said **** them. I'm taking my **** back. Not only my customers but my tools as well. When they let me go they had all kinds of my tools for about a month. Not just hand tools. Sewer machines. Power threader. Tripods. Jetter. Sink machines. Now you know why I would like to take some of my customers work pics of big jobs and use for me. Cause they are still my customers. I can go to these places we are talking about and take current pictures if that will make some of you feel better cause I'm there working.


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## mtl723 (Mar 31, 2012)

I don't think anyone of you have ever worked for a company that you single handedly turned around and basically used your stuff to make the company money. Never have you all supplied material for big jobs out of your pocket cause the company had lost their credit at supply houses and could not afford to do that current job. They relied on service but when the phone doesn't ring and I bring lots of builders to you they gotta get somehow. Put yourself in my shoes


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Mtl,

You really do have a distorted understanding of employer, employee, and customer relationships.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

mtl723 said:


> I don't think anyone of you have ever worked for a company that you single handedly turned around and basically used your stuff to make the company money. Never have you all supplied material for big jobs out of your pocket cause the company had lost their credit at supply houses and could not afford to do that current job. They relied on service but when the phone doesn't ring and I bring lots of builders to you they gotta get somehow. Put yourself in my shoes



That's fair, I would never work for a company that I paid for materials myself, or at least not a lot of material. Any customer that followed you I can see, sorta. 

As for them keeping your tools, if that is the case I would agree with a scorched policy with nothing off limits. If a company or a person takes a tradesmen's tools they are stealing present and future money.. I detest thieves workers or bosses and they deserve what they get.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

mark kiernan said:


> Most customers already know what they want fixed when they call a plumber, in some respect.
> We do educate them on why we do it the way we do.
> I have seen expert sales men in peoples home running their mouths on how great business A is and why they need all this extra work.
> Just offer great service with great price and be polite, get a good cpa and start building the business.
> ...


 
Mark; this portion I have a little issue with, most customers do not know what it is they need. They may know and understand the thing is broken and needs to get fixed. I’ve been doing this a long time the majority of customer does not know what is out there for them to take a look at. Sure they may understand they can buy new what they do not know is what best fits them. I have never seen anyone at home centers ask the customer how they use their fixtures. I need a faucet , they are over there pick one out.

Take a kitchen sink faucet. A basic single lever or 2 handle with side spray. They cook a lot and use large pans, she washers her hair and small dog in the sink, she works on her plants. She knows the faucet is leaking however she does not know or understand that she can have a pull out spray faucet installed that will make those other jobs easier.

A customer walks with a walker, a water closet and it needs to be pulled and reset and the tank is now leaking. Doesn’t he deserve to know about an ADA water closet and given the choice to install a water closet that is easier to get off and on? These are thing home owners do not think of the majority of times.

How about that young family that has kids 4-7 years old and the water heater is a 30 gallon electric heater. Shouldn’t we be thinking ten years down the road when a 50 gallon may be required by the teenagers? Here the water heater is expected to last 12 years.

No one has stated to sell what is not wanted or needed if that is the case then I would agree 100%. I think where we differ is I believe it is up to the customer to decide what is needed or wanted verses me making that decision. My question will determine that issue. That is my job as a representative of our company.

I have no issue with the rest of your thread. It is ok that we have a difference of opinion on what we believe the customer needs.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Taking Richards post a tad further, it could actually be a *disservice* to not offer options that could be beneficial to the customer. And I agree that actually very often the customer doesn't know or hasn't thought about what else could be done. It's a simple offer, if they decline more power to them.
What I hear a customer say very often is " Oh I have wondered about that do you have one for me to look at?". 
I was fixing a leak in a home in the garage next to the water heater. 
I told the customer the 50 gallon elect, WH shows mineral buildup around the lower edge at the seams and should be replaced asap. She declined which was fine. Bout a month later,,,,,,,,you know the rest of the story.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

mark kiernan said:


> Being cheap on price does not mean your undercutting or living on the bread line it may mean that his over head is real low.
> If the price is right and everyone is happy then its all good.
> Yes being in business is hard enough but because you have been in business for say ten years and and managed to screw everyone over you have done work for you will soon find your business model may fail as repeat customers will not be a repeat, once bitten twice shy.
> Give good service at a good price.
> ...


Price is only one thing that gets satisfied customers. Thinking like that will keep you only making the 600 I'll take the 2k and my customer will be just as happy if not more so. I will explain the job very thoroughly, and walk the customer through it. Since I'm charging a premium dollar, I have no problem taking the extra time to clean up and making sure everything is perfect. 

The customer will say things like he was so thorough and attentive. He answered all my questions and cleaned up perfectly. I used to be the get in and get out type plumber. When you do that, you tend to cut time with the customers short and don't build a good rapport with them. When you charge more, it isn't a problem to spend the extra time.


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Mark; this portion I have a little issue with, most customers do not know what it is they need. They may know and understand the thing is broken and needs to get fixed. I’ve been doing this a long time the majority of customer does not know what is out there for them to take a look at. Sure they may understand they can buy new what they do not know is what best fits them. I have never seen anyone at home centers ask the customer how they use their fixtures. I need a faucet , they are over there pick one out.
> 
> Take a kitchen sink faucet. A basic single lever or 2 handle with side spray. They cook a lot and use large pans, she washers her hair and small dog in the sink, she works on her plants. She knows the faucet is leaking however she does not know or understand that she can have a pull out spray faucet installed that will make those other jobs easier.
> 
> ...


If you noticed I said most...
My point is that people do not want to be charged a fortune for service.

Customers water heater is leaking and is up to code, does he not know he wants a water heater if he sees it leaking.
There is true and false in all statements.
I also agree its upto the customer to decide, what I'm saying is the customer don't need raped in the process because the contractor don't want to leave money on the table.
I'm saying the higher charging shops are going to suffer before long and have staff sat doing nothing.
The smaller shops with lower over heads seem to be doing better imho from what I have seen.
Unless the bigger shops employe full times sales team with sales training and they word it just right that its not forced but a option and a expensive one.
When I get a job call come in the customer nows they need a plumber hence why my phone rings.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Mark; this portion I have a little issue with, most customers do not know what it is they need. They may know and understand the thing is broken and needs to get fixed. I’ve been doing this a long time the majority of customer does not know what is out there for them to take a look at. Sure they may understand they can buy new what they do not know is what best fits them. I have never seen anyone at home centers ask the customer how they use their fixtures. I need a faucet , they are over there pick one out.
> 
> Take a kitchen sink faucet. A basic single lever or 2 handle with side spray. They cook a lot and use large pans, she washers her hair and small dog in the sink, she works on her plants. She knows the faucet is leaking however she does not know or understand that she can have a pull out spray faucet installed that will make those other jobs easier.
> 
> ...


I agree with this 100%. It's your job to sell the best system for the customers needs. If I can see something that the customer hadn't considered, it will be beneficial to us both.

For example I had a customer that needed a toilet reset. After taking with her, I found out that the toilet in question was reset many times. She also told me that it would clog frequently as her husband was on medication that made his stools hard. She would plunge it to unclog it.

See a pattern here? It was a combination of the closet collar being too low, and the toilet not having Sufficient flush. Throw in the fact that her husband was disabled and the toilet was not an ADA toilet.

I sold her a pressure assist toilet, ADA height. Instead of resetting the toilet, I did an up sale. And now the toilet won't clog, her husband will be able too get on and off easier and it will eliminate the problem permanently. The problem wasn't a leaking toilet, it was a not having the right toilet.


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

RW Plumbing said:


> Price is only one thing that gets satisfied customers. Thinking like that will keep you only making the 600 I'll take the 2k and my customer will be just as happy if not more so. I will explain the job very thoroughly, and walk the customer through it. Since I'm charging a premium dollar, I have no problem taking the extra time to clean up and making sure everything is perfect.
> 
> The customer will say things like he was so thorough and attentive. He answered all my questions and cleaned up perfectly. I used to be the get in and get out type plumber. When you do that, you tend to cut time with the customers short and don't build a good rapport with them. When you charge more, it isn't a problem to spend the extra time.


If you read I said identical in not so many words, three hours I said.
I didn't do them a disservice earning $600 and cleaning up I just made sure I earned what was right for the hours and materials.
I didn't say we wouldn't clean up or explain how and what I'm doing, your just putting to it to justify your high charges.
You may well get the 2k from them but the chance of referals is not that great with people watching every penny they spend.
I earn pretty good wages, well I think so.
The people that will defend high prices are guys with new trucks and 6 employees who need to charge higher than one man shops.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

mark kiernan said:


> If you noticed I said most...
> My point is that people do not want to be charged a fortune for service.
> 
> Customers water heater is leaking and is up to code, does he not know he wants a water heater if he sees it leaking.
> ...


 

Mark words like “most” are irrelevant when other words like rape are inserted. Who gets to decide if the customer has been raped? Is it you or is it me that decides?
Here is an example does the low ball plumber get to decide if the customer was over charged? I used the terminology lowball plumber because he charges less than me. It implies he or she does not know what they are doing.
Define overcharged?
Define raped? 

Use facts in the definition verse an opinion. Is it what the market will bear? The higher price was paid that suggests the market will bear the higher price and is proven.

The answer to your water heater question is NO. I have had customers ask me if I can repair a leaking water heater. Generally speaking the customer has an idea that it needs replaced however they do not know if they have the appropriate sized heater. 

I am also confused when you state the higher charging shops and then state they do not want to leave anything on the table. Is it that they charge more per hour or is it because they take care of all the issues the customer has going on in their home and that ticket receives more money? Are you implying to leave the customer’s home with other plumbing issues not talked about or resolved?

I really do not care what any company charges. When you deliver on your promises and the customer sees value it is all good. 
When promises are broken and not kept you can charge 50 dollars and you have over charged.
I remember the days when I charged 1.00 for a wax ring and then have a customer call me a crook. No one can please all of the customers all of the time. I kind of figure this type customer is not a customer of mine and my competition can have them.

 My point is that people do not want to be charged a fortune for service.

why do you think this is a true statement? I would replace the word fortune with fair price.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

mark kiernan said:


> ...The people that will defend high prices are guys with new trucks and 6 employees who need to charge higher than one man shops.


The three highest hourly rate companies I know of in OKC are one man shops. They a waaaay higher than me and you already know I'm not the cheapest guy in town. Unless something has changed within the last 9 months or so, the shop with the most number of trucks in OKC still charges $85 per hour for service work.

The three highball guys are driving older model trucks, operating with minimal overhead, and like you they offer great skill and service. Their customer base is well established. They do not advertise so they are relying solely on referrals and repeat business. Their customers are paying a premium and obviously still believe they are getting their money's worth.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

mark kiernan said:


> If you read I said identical in not so many words, three hours I said.
> I didn't do them a disservice earning $600 and cleaning up I just made sure I earned what was right for the hours and materials.
> I didn't say we wouldn't clean up or explain how and what I'm doing, your just putting to it to justify your high charges.
> You may well get the 2k from them but the chance of referals is not that great with people watching every penny they spend.
> ...


It's all in how you value yourself. Believe it or not the majority of my business is referrals and when I started charging more and upping my customer contact and service, I received MORE referrals and more satisfied customers. 

Do a post search on me Mark. You will see that when I joined this forum, i thought the exact way you do. Ask Richard, I'm sure he remembers the conversations we used to have. 

The point being is the work itself may have taken three hours but was it complete. I spend more time with customers now, and even though the bill is higher, they are more satisfied. 

You have to try and stop telling yourself what the customer wants to spend. by assuming the customer only wants you to get the job done super fast, and as cheap as possible, you are making that decision for the customer. You would be surprised that most customers want to know what's going on and be presented with options. 

Giving a customer a choice between a spot repair and a complete replacement isn't a bad thing. I did a job Friday where the call came in to do a few spot repairs on a leaking gas main. I wound up doing a repipe. I didn't force a sale, the pipe was 100 years old. I didn't know what caused the three separate leaks. I gave a price for both and explained the pros and cons to each. I let the customer choose.


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

My point was, and this was fact for me.

I get a call for a water leak under a slab from someone about 1 year ago.
I turn out and do the repair for just under 1k with concrete and clean up.
They pay the bill and thank me and then proceed to tell me the other estimates they got were more than double what I charged, did I leave money on the table, no.
This person has given me over 150k in business this year so far.
This person and their company used to use a very well known larger shop in our area and this shop lost the contract.
I now have it and its worked good for me.
Mr biz, I have had the pleasure to work with you and I was impressed by the way you run your shop and guys. 10/10
But as you stand by what you say "you don't mark up materials"
How many mark up materials and then still overcharge.
Sorry it took so long to get back to this but I had 3 calls come in from the same company i get a lot of work from.
As far as saying raped I mean the guys who would knowingly over charge for something that we all know wouldn't cost that much to do.
We all seek a good income and great customers. Customers remember a good service at a fair price.
We all know that people are holding onto their money more now as they fear loosing it faster than they can earn it.
I guess you get what you pay for.


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## Big cheez (Jan 11, 2012)

As long as you can account for your prices I have no problem costing more then the next guy. apples to oranges. You can install a six year heater I can install a twelve, your can be a whirlpool im sticking with Rheem. I'm gonna hard pipe the unit install an expansion tank, vacuum breaker, flood stop alarm and a new pan of course mine cost more. You can keep the cheap customers and under cut are trade all you want. I will only agree with you of they can't account for over pricing and it's apples to apples.


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

Big cheez said:


> As long as you can account for your prices I have no problem costing more then the next guy. apples to oranges. You can install a six year heater I can install a twelve, your can be a whirlpool im sticking with Rheem. I'm gonna hard pipe the unit install an expansion tank, vacuum breaker, flood stop alarm and a new pan of course mine cost more. You can keep the cheap customers and under cut are trade all you want. I will only agree with you of they can't account for over pricing and it's apples to apples.


I always fit as per instructions, one thing for sure though, I know I go above most on installs.
I bend my own 90s and swage my own couplers, cuts down on solder joints.
I will use copper where permitted.
As for whirlpool, not me my friend, I also won't touch rheem.
Bradfords or a o smith.
I don't sacrafice on my quality. I lead weld my own weather flashings and aneal pipes still as this is how I was taught.
I also learned how to gas rate a product instead of relying on a sticker that says 40000btu I like to gas rate.
You may think I'm after cheap customers but you are so wrong and walked so far from the path.

As for undercut the trade, I don't undercut I know my prices by my cost of being in business and have done my math.

I always give options and my views to customers they can take it with a pinch of salt though if they so choose.

Apples to apples here.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Mark

I have no issue with what you charge. It does not matter what you charge. I would hope no one else is condemning you for what you charge. What I am trying to accomplish is to discover what is over charging and help change attitudes to the idea of what overcharging is. I would like to attempt to change the terminology and attitude of suggesting that people rape a customer. Hence the reason for asking for a fact base definition of raping a customer and not have it based on an opinion that someone was charged too much.

Personally I appreciate a company or person that will challenge what the market will bear. It increases my standard of living and allows me to give my family more. In my case it allows me to give them a better education. They can have nice clothes, a safe car to drive, insurance to protect them. It allows me to live without the stress and worries of living pay check to pay check. I did that for many years when I first started out in plumbing.

What is leaving stuff on the table? If any plumber is leaving things on the table the customer is ultimately losing. They must wait for it to totally break down, call the plumber, schedule time off work, wait for the plumber to get there and pay another trip charge, additional minimum hour charge, in the likely case it may flood the customers home or area. It simply is not logical to not give the customer the choice to take care of it today. If the customer chooses to ignore the problem or they choose to take care of the problem what or where is the problem? Base this on fact and not opinion. 

Over charging= manipulate, cheat, take unfair advantage, change your pricing structure due to the type house and area someone lives. Not following through with your promises of delivering product, service, and warranty. Selling the wrong product that will not solve the problem. 

You can over charge when you charge 50 bucks and you can also over charge when you collect 1000 dollar when it does not take care of the customers issues. Especially when you know it will not take care of the issue. The amount anyone charges is not relevant.

If we could do a head to head competition I would enjoy having you do a ride along so tha you could change your perception. It may not change the way you do business however I am certain it would change your perception and view.

What you have described is when another company has taken advantage of a customer and that is wrong.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

RW
Oh yeah I do remember I am happy that we took the time to communicate outside of the pz. As you well remember I did not try to persuade or convince you I did try to influence you to see a different point of view.

Once you opened your mind to a different point of view you were able to see different results. The results are proven. The results convinced and persuaded you to adjust to a different way. You did it yourself. I am happy for you.

You are spot on with the referrals they are amazing and extremely strong referrals. Question when you get the referrals, do you ask your customer what the referring party told them? If not start, it makes the referral stronger and reminds the customer why they called you.


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

Richard you are right on when I say taking advantage of a customer, that's my whole point.

People complain about dealership prices.
Everyone complains about gas prices and tells their friends where to go to get cheaper gas for their cars.
Walmart & target pricing for same apples.
Buy a on demand at lowes then price one at supply house, we all strive to get a better deal for the same product or service.
Am I a cheap customer because I filled up at seven eleven today and I'm now not the type of customer shell oil wants because I wanted to get my gas 10 cents cheaper a gallon.
I am not saying all contractors are the same, I use the term raped I think a little different than you took the statement for.
I feel raped if I pay to much for anything, just me.
We all want the best deal when we next purchase a k60 machine, it is cheaper at winnelsons than it is at locke supply by nearly $400, did winnelsons leave money on the table, they just gained all my business as they took care of me when I wanted a k60.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Mark,

When trying to say one price is too high or too low it puts the thing being priced into a commodity category.

For instance, the K60 is a K60 no matter where you get it. It is a commodity. The way we sell services cannot be fairly compared to the selling of widgets.

Making a commodity out of our services is a dangerous slope. I do not believe plumbing services are ever an apples to apples comparison to each other, much less to widgets. There are always differences and those differences either add or take away value in the consumer's mind.

Some residential customers may feel more at ease with a wrapped late model vehicle with no oil leaks. On the other hand, a commercial customer that never personally sees you or the truck may not care. 

Some people may be willing to pay more for the experience they have with your company as opposed to another. For instance, maybe they are willing to pay you $20 an hour more not because they think you are a better toilet fixer, but because they trust your opinion on the toilet being fixed. Or maybe the Mrs. just likes your accent. :jester:

There are countless reasons why we should never allow our services to be judged good, bad, or indifferent based solely on the dollar amount. The price has almost ZERO to do with the level of service. When price is the determining factor alone, then we are just a commodity to be traded like soybean futures on the stock market.

Your service and the way you provide it cannot be compared fairly to mine. Mine cannot be compared to RW's. And RW cannot be compared to Richard. We all have unique talents and gifts we bring to the customer's table. I never want to work for someone that only considers the price and never considers or realizes the value.

The VALUE the customer receives....that is the key difference. Sometimes it takes more money to provide certain things that certain customers view as valuable. Sometimes not. It is a balancing act that all business operators dance with every day.


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

So long as that dance isn't m c hammer..... lol.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> Mark,
> 
> When trying to say one price is too high or too low it puts the thing being priced into a commodity category.
> 
> ...


Exactly this. It took me too long to realize this. My ability to provide options, and explain the customers plumbing system cannot be priced. Getting a toilet fixed isn't the same job by every company. Did the guy notice the collar wasn't high enough, or just put two wax rings. Did he use shims and assure the toilet doesn't move. Did he notice the toilet was an old 3.5 gallon toilet where the water savings would pay the cost in a few years?

Not that anyone here is better or worse, but we rarely have identical products. It took me a while to realize my services are worth a good price.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

mark kiernan said:


> So long as that dance isn't m c hammer..... lol.


I prefer Ginger Rogers.


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Mark
> 
> I have no issue with what you charge. It does not matter what you charge. I would hope no one else is condemning you for what you charge. What I am trying to accomplish is to discover what is over charging and help change attitudes to the idea of what overcharging is. I would like to attempt to change the terminology and attitude of suggesting that people rape a customer. Hence the reason for asking for a fact base definition of raping a customer and not have it based on an opinion that someone was charged too much.
> 
> ...


People like to buy, but nobody likes to be sold.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

mark kiernan said:


> Richard you are right on when I say taking advantage of a customer, that's my whole point.
> 
> People complain about dealership prices.
> Everyone complains about gas prices and tells their friends where to go to get cheaper gas for their cars.
> ...


 
Mark 

Everything you have stated the people are conditioned by those companies to accept low pricing. With the low pricing they also are conditioned to inferior products. Let us take a look at Wal Mart and Target. The clothing is cheaper. The reason the clothing is cheaper is the color fades more quickly than if you purchased the identical looking clothing at a premier shop. I purchased 2 shirts at Wal Mart and they did not last 3 months the stitching came loose and they have holes. My next purchase of shirts was not at Wal Mart.

Do people really drive out of their way to get the cheaper gas the answer is no. I can tell the difference in the mileage when I buy gas at a stop and shop, I can also tell the difference in mileage with citco gas then BP. The people you are talking about are comparing money and not the performance.

I understand what you are trying to convey. I do not believe that MOST people are doing it. I shop at Wal Mart and Target. The reason I can buy 5 dollar movies. I can get a basic computer for 100 dollars less. It is no Toshiba it is a Compaq. Again I am giving something up for price and that is performance.

I am sure you will not use Winn Nelson for every plumbing purchase. I am not even sure half of your plumbing needs will be supplied by them. We are a small plumbing company and we have 6-8 different suppliers we use. I wanted a water closet delivered by WN. The day it was supposed to be delivered it did not show up. When I called to ask where it was I received a sob story that a driver did not show up. Not my problem. My job was scheduled the next day get it to me, there was a promise to deliver it at a lesser rate and guess what the promise was broken.

I have to keep asking this; what is too much? Why is it rape if you get better performance and value?


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Cuda said:


> People like to buy, but nobody likes to be sold.


 

If we research this statement we would discover this is a false statement and what is meant. The content and context is missing. Whenever this statement is made typically what follows and we discover that the persons selling did a horrible job. People love to buy for their own reasons not mine or yours.

For the statement to be correct it should read this way; People love to buy for their own reasons and dislike being sold to badly, by a sales person.

When you want to discover information you seek out a person to sell to you.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> I had the same problem once where an employee was going around behind my back trying to take my contracts.... Big backfire for him as my customers told me and it was grounds for immediate dismissal ...
> 
> Send him backing .... As soon as I found out
> 
> Bad enough I have competition on the outside of my business but it will not be tolerated inside my business


Same thing happened to me in 2009, customer brought their card by and they still denied it. Been with me for 12 yrs. and said "Do you think I would do that to you? Evidamndintley. They were dismissed immediately. I don't mind competition, but I will be damned if I will finance it.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

When I worked for my own family, many many times, I would get customers from my friends, or their parents, or my friends neighbors, & so on, to use my family's plumbing business. I had a close friend, whose father worked at a big factory, that gave my family business tons & tons of work. I never even considered, that customer should be mine, when I went into business, on my own. Even though 100% of the reason the guy called was cuz of me. In fact, to be perfectly honest, the thought never even once occurred to me.

But when I started on my own, I needed a change. So I never even wanted those old customers, even if I could have got them. It was so nice to meet new people, & get new challenges, & once people find out your in business for yourself, do good & honest work, know what your doing, & IMO most importantly, be there when you say you will be there, then it will snowball from there.


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

I was saying apples to apples, the exact same product supplied from different people but one charged xx and the other ***.
Maybe.
Yes I do drive out of my way for cheaper gas. Lol.
I would say I get approx 90% of my goods from winnelsons and they always hot shot me parts wherever I am in the city.
They even have their counter guys drop me stuff in their own cars sometimes to get stuff out to me.
Not once have they let me down but they also know I will drop them like hot coal if they ever do let me down and I tell them this.


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