# simple single zone controller



## roving plumber (Apr 25, 2011)

looking for opinions on a simple, economical, and reliable single zone pump controller. There is low voltage stat wire ran, I probably would have went with a line voltage stat to the pump if they had run romex. My thought right now is a Taco SR501 to simply activate the pump when the stat calls, I shoud mention this system is fed off a 50 gal gas hot water heater (Iknow, it's a homeowner thing). Any suggestions are appreciated, I have piped a lot of boiers but not wired any syatems (although this is about as basic as it gets) 
Thanks, Jeff


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Sounds like you want a relay, doesn't get simpler than that.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Did you figure out how to connect the leg bone to the hip bone?


24v transformer, one wire goes to thermostat, the returning wire goes to the 24v side of a relay, the wire then comes back to the other side of the transformer. 



The 120v side of the relay will switch one leg of the pump, if it's a 120v pump it will switch the hot leg. For a 220v pump you can pick either.


I could be wrong but if it's a standard small residential circulator you can just use one of those "ice cube" relays, I think they are good to 5amps.




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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> Did you figure out how to connect the leg bone to the hip bone?
> 
> 
> 24v transformer, one wire goes to thermostat, the returning wire goes to the 24v side of a relay, the wire then comes back to the other side of the transformer.
> ...



while that may work im thinking no electrical code will allow it...


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> while that may work im thinking no electrical code will allow it...





Care to elaborate?




,


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> while that may work im thinking no electrical code will allow it...





Taco makes one.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Or you could get a separate 24v transformer and stick a RIB relay off the side. Just add 4x4 box and you're done.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> Taco makes one.
> 
> 
> .


 ok that wasnt what I was thinking of when you said " ice cube relay", I had in mind those little black relays you put under the hood of your truck for lights, the way you described hooking it up didnt sound like a factory made unit like the tacos, that would be fine...something like this when you said ice cube relay..
https://www.amazon.com/Emerson-90-3...&qid=1545911664&sr=8-3&keywords=24+volt+relay


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## roving plumber (Apr 25, 2011)

Thanks for all the thoughts, I ended up going with the Taco single zone controller. Simple to install, may not have been the cheapest option I think it was under $80.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

roving plumber said:


> Thanks for all the thoughts, I ended up going with the Taco single zone controller. Simple to install, may not have been the cheapest option I think it was under $80.



if your working on your own stuff cobbling together something may work, but if the unit is not UL approved and there is a fire , you are liable and insurance may not cover because you used a bunch of parts not meant to be used in the fashion they were put together, sometimes cheapest is not smartest or cheapest in the end, you made a good choice using a taco control..


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> ok that wasnt what I was thinking of when you said " ice cube relay", I had in mind those little black relays you put under the hood of your truck for lights, the way you described hooking it up didnt sound like a factory made unit like the tacos, that would be fine...something like this when you said ice cube relay..
> https://www.amazon.com/Emerson-90-3...&qid=1545911664&sr=8-3&keywords=24+volt+relay





I don't see why that would be an issue if you use insulated connectors, especially if you put it inside of a 4" or 6" junction box.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> I don't see why that would be an issue if you use insulated connectors, especially if you put it inside of a 4" or 6" junction box.


once you put the pieces together, as crazy as it make sound, the complete unit is not UL certified, as now you " manufactured a control" and the workings of the control havent been tested..a better example would be you make a home made lamp out of UL certified parts, but the lamp is not UL certified and you cant sell it as you would be liable big time if it caught fire and burned a house down, 

so say the control you built holds too much heat in on the relay and it melts the wires and burns..if UL tested the whole box and parts this would have shown up..the taco relay is UL approved as a whole, even if you could break it down to components ...


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> once you put the pieces together, as crazy as it make sound, the complete unit is not UL certified, as now you " manufactured a control" and the workings of the control havent been tested..a better example would be you make a home made lamp out of UL certified parts, but the lamp is not UL certified and you cant sell it as you would be liable big time if it caught fire and burned a house down,
> 
> so say the control you built holds too much heat in on the relay and it melts the wires and burns..if UL tested the whole box and parts this would have shown up..the taco relay is UL approved as a whole, even if you could break it down to components ...




















You speak the truth runs downhill.....


I had a plumbing manager at a company that I worked for many moons ago. We were installing a jacuzzi-type Roman tub with the motor. The motor comes installed with this tub. The tub was a corner model. The problem was, that after it was to be installed, the motor was not accessible; it would have been behind a cement block wall without the required access to service the motor. 


So an idea was floated, what if we remove the motor and install it on the other side of the tub, then the motor would be accessible since we could cut an access panel under the lav vanity. However, my astute manager pointed out to us that if we did that, we would lose the UL listing that came with the tub.


In that same company, I was replacing a 40-gallon elec. W/H where the breaker for the W/H was only 20 amps. The new replacement W/H came with 4500 watt elements. As any experienced serviceman knows, those heating elements will definitely trip a 20 amp breaker {if any of you younger guys want to know how to size out elements, check OHMS for elec. W/H elements, send me a PM and I'll be happy to show you the electrical formulas.} so, I told my manager, "No problem Mike, I'll just pick up the W/H with the 4500 watt elements, and I'll replace the elements w/ 3500 watt." He said, "No you won't. Now we've altered a UL listed product and any liability down the road is on us. I'll call around and find a supply house that stocks a W/H with 3800 watt elements and we'll go get that one."


That manager was on the ball, knew his stuff and taught me a thing or two.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

I get that that sounds right, but aside from a manager being cautious and srdh's generalization what documentation are you basing this off of?


I am not saying i know it any better than you, just a little different. My understanding is that ul listings(or any other third party testing) is just when a product gets tested to a particular standard. Now that standard could be anything. It could be a page long or 3 binders. Also, anyone can submit a standard and then pay to have products tested to that standard.


So if standard 867/5309 says that the product must get above 80 degrees farenheit and have a smooth surface 6"x6" or more and it will be considered a "Cook top" than yes my stove will count but so could my vans hood if Ipay to have them tested in sufficient quantity. 



So unless you guys are looking up the ul or other 3rd party standards and verifying the setup or environment the product was tested to work in or not work in I dont think you can make the claims you are making.


So for instance, if that black relay you linked was listed as a "Heating and cooling device disconnect for less than 10 amps" and it says nothing about being installed in a particular housing and I use wire of sufficient gauge(according to NEC) than I highly doubt that I could catch flak if it malfunctions.


To say that because I took two listed components and connected them in a way that they were obviously intended to be connected, like using a 24v transformer with a 24v thermostat and relay, that they are now not covered under the listing is just ridiculous.


I get that if you disconnect and then reconnect that jacuzzi pump and something happens that was related to an improper connection you made you will be at fault. But if the switch for the interior lighting melts and starts the house on fire and you didnt cause it you're not going to be held liable.






The truth is that lawsuits and litigation are not as common as people think. Yes insurance companies want to avoid payouts, but thats why you get you own competent lawyer to protect you. I am not going to live my life trying to avoid theoretical lawsuits which might spawn from ridiculous assertions. I am going to continue to work with good intention to the best of my knowledge and am willing to defend every action I make on any piece of equipment. 



I know, I am one reckless sob.



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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tommy plumber said:


> ...I was replacing a 40-gallon elec. W/H where the breaker for the W/H was only 20 amps. The new replacement W/H came with 4500 watt elements. As any experienced serviceman knows, those heating elements will definitely trip a 20 amp breaker {if any of you younger guys want to know how to size out elements, check OHMS for elec. W/H elements, send me a PM and I'll be happy to show you the electrical formulas.} so, I told my manager, "No problem Mike, I'll just pick up the W/H with the 4500 watt elements, and I'll replace the elements w/ 3500 watt." He said, "No you won't. Now we've altered a UL listed product and any liability down the road is on us. I'll call around and find a supply house that stocks a W/H with 3800 watt elements and we'll go get that one."...





Or you just replace the breaker with a double 30 and run some 10awg.




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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> I get that that sounds right, but aside from a manager being cautious and srdh's generalization what documentation are you basing this off of?
> 
> 
> I am not saying i know it any better than you, just a little different. My understanding is that ul listings(or any other third party testing) is just when a product gets tested to a particular standard. Now that standard could be anything. It could be a page long or 3 binders. Also, anyone can submit a standard and then pay to have products tested to that standard.
> ...


 the easiest way to convince you is call your insurance company assuming you have one for your company again assuming you have your own business, if not call your homeowners insurance and tell them you want to cobble together some electrical parts to put on your boiler and they are not UL certified as a unit and see if they will pay for your house rebuild from a fire, and you know there arent many lawsuits by how??
and how much money will you keep paying lawyers to defend your actions even if you win you lose all that money....



I get that if you disconnect and then reconnect that jacuzzi pump and something happens that was related to an improper connection you made you will be at fault. But if the switch for the interior lighting melts and starts the house on fire and you didnt cause it you're not going to be held liable.
you WILL be liable, but your insurance will cover you as this is part of your job description and you didnt alter an already approved device and the way it was wired..
many people feel the way you do till it bites them in the a$$ and have to pay out big time, then they cry the blues they didnt know...


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> the easiest way to convince you is call your insurance company assuming you have one for your company again assuming you have your own business, if not call your homeowners insurance and tell them you want to cobble together some electrical parts to put on your boiler and they are not UL certified as a unit and see if they will pay for your house rebuild from a fire, and you know there arent many lawsuits by how??
> and how much money will you keep paying lawyers to defend your actions even if you win you lose all that money....
> 
> 
> ...





Well, if it bites me in the ass at least I was trying to do the right thing. If I make a mistake then I agree, I should be held liable. But if I wire everything correctly and the issue was a faulty part, they may try to hold me liable but I will fight it, or at least our liability insurance will.


You're right, I only have anecdotal evidence to support my idea that lawsuits aren't as common as people think. But you too up to this point only have anecdotal evidence. 



And of course if you ask your insurer they will err on the side of caution and try as much as they can to get you to do things differently or at least tell you to so if you don't they can try to avoid paying out. Heck, I would feel more at risk asking them about these issues because then if something does happen they can say they told me so even if it's not the main issue it still sounds good in court.


I still don't see how using a transformer which is ul listed and a relay which is ul listed, for the purpose I am using them for would somehow put the liability on me. Try that logic on the taco board he went with, if you combine it with a ul listed thermostat now neither of them are ul listed? WTF?


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Here's a funny video on the subject, sort of.










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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> Well, if it bites me in the ass at least I was trying to do the right thing. If I make a mistake then I agree, I should be held liable. But if I wire everything correctly and the issue was a faulty part, they may try to hold me liable but I will fight it, or at least our liability insurance will.
> 
> 
> You're right, I only have anecdotal evidence to support my idea that lawsuits aren't as common as people think. But you too up to this point only have anecdotal evidence.
> ...



google is your friend to find out how many lawsuits...
using 2 approved manufactured devices installed as per approved directions is not manufacturing a control..if you dont grasp that , hey do what you want and whatever happens happens, ill sit back and be happy to hear your good story on it...
you are wrong about your insurance fighting for you or covering you if you " build or create" your own controls and install them without approval...they will look at the fastest way not to have to spend any money..
some people get good advice and just dis miss it because it doesnt suit their needs...either way its your baby in the end...


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> Here's a funny video on the subject, sort of.
> 
> 
> The Truth About the McDonald's Coffee Lawsuit - YouTube
> ...



LOL..well that proves when you get sued for cobbling together an un approved control device that could be dangerous, just like mcdonalds 190 degree burning coffee you will have no defense and pay out big time..


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