# Compression ring difference



## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Has anyone noticed the difference in the lead free compression rings?

I had one push off about a month ago, during an airtest, and couldn't figure out why? Today I had a bunch to put on and i noticed the older stock from my truck would compress the ring without alot of wrench torque but newer ones of the same brand required substancial torque to get them to compress. 

Just be warned if you are putting compression stops on. You might pull it back off and make sure you compressed the ring.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

I've always put silicon grease on the threads...helps seal the bugger better.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

gear junkie said:


> I've always put silicon grease on the threads...helps seal the bugger better.


What he said.:thumbsup:


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

I am leery of lead free anything that needs to be compressed or torqued due to how brittle it is. Call me crazy.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

gear junkie said:


> I've always put silicon grease on the threads...helps seal the bugger better.


I know what your saying I always used blue magic on the threads for lubrication but these newer ones are different!


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## plumberpro (Jan 1, 2013)

I always you pipe dope magaloc brand it's blue and non Harding works good I also remove the stem and put on silicone grease so the valve will turn off latter on down the road when the fixture needs service.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## KCplumber (Dec 31, 2009)

what brand are you using?


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

I use elbow grease on mine!!!!!


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

The POS valves that use a washer are a waste of time to grease the stem. It will work one time, when it is installed.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Lubricating the threads is always a good idea, but that's not the leak issue slayer is talking about :no:

He's talking about the ferrules that bite into the copper and that the lead free ferrules are stiffer (more brittle) than the older ferrules that were more malleable because they had lead content.

It won't do any good if the thread portion is sealed tight if the ferrule doesn't compress and the valve blows off the copper :no:

I think I'll start giving them a good tug in the future before I turn my back on one.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

You gotta get "Deliverence" on them. Make 'em SQUEEL! :jester:

*Autocorrect changed it to "make me". I almost had to change my name.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

johnlewismcleod said:


> Lubricating the threads is always a good idea, but that's not the leak issue slayer is talking about :no:
> 
> He's talking about the ferrules that bite into the copper and that the lead free ferrules are stiffer (more brittle) than the older ferrules that were more malleable because they had lead content.
> 
> ...



Exactly! Pull the first one or 2 of the new ones off and make sure you compressed the ferrule. Tugging them don't always show the problem:no:
On the one that blew off I checked the rest off em in the house and they seemed solid, but when I pulled them apart the ferrule or crimp ring had not bit into the copper, so I redid all of em with substantially more torque than before and they were finally biting in good.

We normally use Wolverine Brass or Brasscraft 1/4 turn stops


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

deerslayer said:


> We normally use Wolverine Brass or Brasscraft 1/4 turn stops


Thanks for this! Have to tell the rest of my shop about this on Monday.
When did they (brasscraft) go to lead free?


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

JK949 said:


> You gotta get "Deliverence" on them. Make 'em SQUEEL! :jester:
> 
> *Autocorrect changed it to "make me". I almost had to change my name.


Yep. Elbow grease!!!!


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Yep. Elbow grease!!!!


Only Texans will know that from the land of s and q...


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Only Texans will know that from the land of s and q...


Might I recommend you edit that post with a :jester: at the end
of that statement, there's a long list of Texas members here
that might just take offense to that one :whistling2:


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Na. We like rj. Just don't tell him that. I'm surprised he knows what elbow grease is. Like posted. I tighten them till they squeal !!!


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

deerslayer said:


> Exactly! Pull the first one or 2 of the new ones off and make sure you compressed the ferrule. Tugging them don't always show the problem:no:
> On the one that blew off I checked the rest off em in the house and they seemed solid, but when I pulled them apart the ferrule or crimp ring had not bit into the copper, so I redid all of em with substantially more torque than before and they were finally biting in good.
> 
> We normally use Wolverine Brass or Brasscraft 1/4 turn stops


Gawd, I hate those qtr turn stops, only the service plumbers would know...


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Gawd, I hate those qtr turn stops, only the service plumbers would know...


Why you have trouble getting ferrel off??


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Why you have trouble getting ferrel off??


How do u take the stem out of the qtr turn?


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> How do u take the stem out of the qtr turn?


That's the nice thing about teflon seated balls...you don't have to :thumbup:


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> How do u take the stem out of the qtr turn?


You don't. Why would you want to??? If it leaks. Replace it


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Guess you're not service plumbers, there are many time when I have plugged line to supply ( 0ld homes with glav pipings,etc) with regular stem stops, I can remove the stem to flush out the line, etc without having customers saying its a brand new valve and not paying for another one..


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Guess you're not service plumbers, there are many time when I have plugged line to supply ( 0ld homes with glav pipings,etc) with regular stem stops, I can remove the stem to flush out the line, etc without having customers saying its a brand new valve and not paying for another one..


With a 1/4 turn compression stop you can remove the whole valve to flush the line if you wish:yes:


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

deerslayer said:


> With a 1/4 turn compression stop you can remove the whole valve to flush the line if you wish:yes:


Yep. And flush it well too


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Guess you're not service plumbers, there are many time when I have plugged line to supply ( 0ld homes with glav pipings,etc) with regular stem stops, I can remove the stem to flush out the line, etc without having customers saying its a brand new valve and not paying for another one..


Does the mech. Mea any thing to you !!!


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Does the mech. Mea any thing to you !!!


 Yes.
It probably means you haven't had the pleasure of getting slapped in the face with a turd soaked 11/16" cable. :laughing:


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Yes.
> It probably means you haven't had the pleasure of getting slapped in the face with a turd soaked 11/16" cable. :laughing:


I have never been hit by a turd soaked 11/16 cable and I am a service plumber. Now 5/8", 7/8" and 1.25" have all slapped me at 1 time or another:laughing:


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Guess you're not service plumbers, there are many time when I have plugged line to supply ( 0ld homes with glav pipings,etc) with regular stem stops, I can remove the stem to flush out the line, etc without having customers saying its a brand new valve and not paying for another one..


I've learned over time that if my customers want to keep their old
galv. water lines, the cost of maint. is what it is.
My house had galv. water lines when I bought it. It was not long before
I bit the bullet and repiped it. Over 25 years, I've saved enough time
and hassle to have long since paid for that investment.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

deerslayer said:


> I have never been hit by a turd soaked 11/16 cable and I am a service plumber. Now 5/8", 7/8" and 1.25" have all slapped me at 1 time or another:laughing:


Oh yea !
Did you have to pick corn out of your hair ?:laughing:


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Oh yea !
> Did you have to pick corn out of your hair ?:laughing:


Believe it or not, no! I can usually stay clean on even the nastiest sewers other than the cable getting my leg occasionally!

Had a bathroom with 2" of poo on the floor in a factory and as I went to walk in there the maintenence man stops me and says "are you gonna get that shiot on your boots" I reply i sure as hell ain't going barefoot:laughing:


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## damnplumber (Jan 22, 2012)

johnlewismcleod said:


> Lubricating the threads is always a good idea, but that's not the leak issue slayer is talking about :no:
> 
> He's talking about the ferrules that bite into the copper and that the lead free ferrules are stiffer (more brittle) than the older ferrules that were more malleable because they had lead content.
> 
> ...


But by lubricating threads with silicone grease as I do also, it makes for cranking it down easier as those puppies need to be tighter than the good ole' lead based units in order to crimp the ferrule. Never turn your back in a ferrule install until you are double sure.


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## mpot (Oct 2, 2012)

I prefer to skip the compression all together. Countless times during demo I have simply pulled the ferule and valve clean off. No fancy ferule puller. Try doing that with a 3/8 ip valve.


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## Platinum824 (Jan 17, 2012)

*No Lead Brass = Bad*

I have been looking on this message board for someone with the same issues I have had. It seems in the last 2 months I have had numerous brass ferrules leaking. 

1st set I was replacing shutoff valves/installing them on toilets/pedestal lavatories. I like to use rigid chrome supplies on these because they are exposed and I feel that as a craftsman I should make these look their best. (I hate seeing flex lines exposed). Sure enough I started seeing about 1/2 of the 3/8 comps. leak. I could not figure out reason. I got very frustrated (I very rarely had any leaks on these). Then when entering invoices from the supply house I see that the price went up on the stops I was installing on these jobs. The only correlation I can see is that they switched the brass. I have been much more cautious when installing these and triple checking them.

2nd problem. I installed a water heater and did the usual gas leak check. I connected the pipes, turned on gas valve, used a sniffer to double check fitting connections. Filled and fired water heater and walked away. Got a call a couple days later. The owner of the apartment said they smelled gas. I went there. Smelled nothing. Ran some water to get heater to ignite. Then the sniffer picked it up. I sprayed leak detector on control valve and found leak on pilot brass connection. (I have installed 100's of water heaters in the last 12 years and have not had any issues with leaks after the control valve; therefore I did not check for any). Sure enough when I received the invoice from the supply house again the price had increased. This leads me to believe they went lead free. 

BTW. I can only assume that when fixing these problems I was using previously manufactured brass repair parts with lead. 

It is going to be a long road.

Give Feedback!


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## kiddplum (Feb 7, 2010)

*compression ring difference*

good thread I have also done some demo work and was surprised to be able to remove the compression stop and then pull both nut and ferrule off
these valves had been installed approx. 15 years without a problem
whew.....
I have not experienced any problems with the new valves yet....
there may be something to the no lead theory......this last weekend we replaced a large number of 3/4 sweat by pex adapters which would not hold pressure due to leaking at the solder joint
joints appeared good were installed a number of different people solder and flux were both suspect but checked out ok
is it possible there is a related issue?


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

kiddplum said:


> good thread I have also done some demo work and was surprised to be able to remove the compression stop and then pull both nut and ferrule off
> these valves had been installed approx. 15 years without a problem
> whew.....
> I have not experienced any problems with the new valves yet....
> ...


I have had problems with the sweat pex adapters, I think I started a thread here a while back.


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## plumbing ninja (Jan 15, 2012)

Compression Rings

I think you need to clarify what type of compression rings you are referring too?
It seems you are "tarring all compression fittings with the same brush" Single ferrule are different to double ferrule systems! 
On a lot of cheap single ferrule systems, the manufacturer is very vague on the method of assembling so most people overtighten them
On one specific brand I've used (double ferrule) the operation was as follows....
Insert cleaned de-burred tube in compression fitting push all the way through until it bottoms out on the shoulder
Hand tighten until you are unable move any further movement
Mark a ref mark at the 6 o'clock position
With a spanner, fasten the nut 1-1/2 rotations clockwise and back off 1/4
This has worked for this brand of double ferrules compression fittings. I've not see many instruction on brass double ferrule rings


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

mpot said:


> I prefer to skip the compression all together. Countless times during demo I have simply pulled the ferule and valve clean off. No fancy ferule puller. Try doing that with a 3/8 ip valve.


Must be a lot of sissy plumbers in your town


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## gilbertjeffrey (Mar 6, 2011)

I paint my ferrules with prodope and tighten the piss out of them. the seal is not made at the threads, it is made where the brass mates with the copper.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Use Sharkbites instead.....:laughing:


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## smoldrn (Oct 4, 2010)

Just solder on an R-19, protect the trade.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Use Sharkbites instead.....:laughing:


 







Ahh the irony of that statement......


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

I've never used a compression supply stop. Everything is sweat or IPS, havnt had one leak on me yet. I think it looks nicer and more professional than a compression valve, that big nut just bothers me for some reason. Your typical homeowner isnt going to mess with a sweat valve either.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Marlin said:


> I've never used a compression supply stop. Everything is sweat or IPS, havnt had one leak on me yet. I think it looks nicer and more professional than a compression valve, that big nut just bothers me for some reason. Your typical homeowner isnt going to mess with a sweat valve either.


Works for me...
I seldom see compression stops here...
I see a few IPS stops, but not compression....


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Compression stop are the norm here in Oklahoma and they where the norm in Texas. Nothing wrong with them and they last as long as a solder or threaded joint


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Use Sharkbites instead.....:laughing:


 
good idea...


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Marlin said:


> I've never used a compression supply stop. Everything is sweat or IPS, havnt had one leak on me yet. I think it looks nicer and more professional than a compression valve, that big nut just bothers me for some reason. Your typical homeowner isnt going to mess with a sweat valve either.


 
we have used compression stops for decades
fast, efficient, and can be installed on a copper pipe with water pouring out...no problem

they never give us a problem and look good...
no one is supposed to be looking under the toilet to 
see how the shut off valve looks


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> we have used compression stops for decades
> fast, efficient, and can be installed on a copper pipe with water pouring out...no problem
> 
> they never give us a problem and look good...
> ...


I can't argue that they work fine when properly installed. 

I actually do keep a couple on my truck now incase of an emergency because of a situation a couple months back. I had to shut down a small apartment building and strip of stores in the middle of the day due to a burst supply line (I'll save the I hate flex supplies for another thread) and a bad supply stop. Didn't want to wait for it to drain because I had an ice cream store and deli screaming at me. So I pressed on male adapters and used IPS valves. Compression valves would have been perfect for that job. 

As for people not looking under their toilet. Tell that to the people who spend a hundred bucks or sometimes more ordering fancy supply stops. Behind a toilet I always tin the pipe comming out of the wall while soldering on a stop then use a ridgid supply. It does look a lot nicer.


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