# Union Vs Non Union



## Thekid

Hi all 

I am a first year apprentice and where I am working it is non union. I am wondering is union better or worse. I would love to hear your opions


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## plumb4fun

That is a hot button topic for many here. Let me say that there are good plumbers on both sides of the fence. If your area is largely union and you can get sponsored by a union shop and go through the union school it is some of the best training out there. Working union will usually pay better with better benifits, but you may not work as often. If your area is largely non union then you will stay busier with a mom and pop non union shop. Code classes can be taken at local community colleges. You will learn the trade faster and more thoroughly if you work steady. My opinion and my personal experience.:yes:


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## Thekid

Thanks:thumbup:


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## U666A

That, my friend, is an ignorant question. Asking something blatant like that will usually only start fights.

I recommend using the search feature on PlumbingZone and doing a little research so that the senior members don't have to re-hash that age old battle on your behalf.

I personally have never worked in this trade outside of the United Association so I will not lower myself as to say that one is better than the other.

If you have any legitimate questions about how organized labour works, or whether it would be right for you, feel free to PM me and I will answer to the best of my ability.

But to start a thread on the subject with the word "versus" in the middle, is just in poor taste. We are all plumbing professionals here (except A.T.C., he's a wannabe handy-hack) from all different walks of life with many different opinions on many different subjects.

If I were you, I would be asking the mods to close this thread before you find yourself in the middle of a **** storm you did not anticipate on your 2nd day in the zone.

$0.02

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Thekid

I am just a 17 year old kid working my ass off to become a plumber. All I want to do is learn and get valuable info from people who have been doing this for a lot longer then me. I don't need you riping on me. Sorry I offended you just trying to gather more information so I can furthur my career


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## Thekid

And I have been a member longer than you just never posted always watched what was being said it's not me second day


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

Thekid said:


> And I have been a member longer than you just never posted always watched what was being said it's not me second day


Then you should no better that question the way you phrased it was inflammatory what's next a post on pex vs. Copper there's a lot already posted on many subjects and if you have a specific question you know you'll get answers

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## Redwood

Plumbers Putty is better! :whistling2:


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## DIZ

U.A.til.I.die said:


> . We are all plumbing professionals here (except A.T.C., he's a wannabe handy-hack)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


BWahhahahahah:thumbsup:


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## U666A

Thekid said:


> And I have been a member longer than you just never posted always watched what was being said it's not me second day


Real mature junior...

Listen here sonny boy, I wasn't "riping" on you, I was merely stating that a thread like that is going to stir up a hornets nest.

If you re-read my post, you'll realize that I offered help in fact, as I once pondered that question myself.

It's obvious that you have some sort of inferiority complex, as you went as far as to compare join dates... but I have been in the trade just a wee bit longer. Relax kid, I'm not the only one with the opinion expressed by my post.

Feel better tough guy?

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Thekid

I know you have been doing this longer and I am sorry I was rude I did not mean to start a huge debate or a fight I just wanted to know some advantages and disadvantges of union or non union. Maybe I did not word the question the best I could of and I am sorry for that


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## plbgbiz

OK, let's "assume" you are a are young man that simply does not have enough trade experience to keep up with your desire to learn and progress as a plumber.

You have already received lesson #1 and you didn't have to get embarrassed on the job to learn it. Man I wish there was a forum when I started. The older Plumbers get, the less likely they are to coddle cubs. For God's sake NEVER fire a defensive and sarcastic quip to a senior man on the job! :bangin: (or the forum:laughing 

As far as your original query is concerned, there is no "better/worse" or pro/con" to be compared. They are just different. Non-Union and Union shops can both provide great careers and it will all depend on *YOU*.


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## Widdershins

Thekid said:


> I know you have been doing this longer and I am sorry I was rude I did not mean to start a huge debate or a fight I just wanted to know some advantages and disadvantges of union or non union. Maybe I did not word the question the best I could of and I am sorry for that


 The advice regarding Trade School, whether it's through a Union or pursued of your own accord through a local Voc/Tech is valid.

I wouldn't even consider hiring someone without those credentials under their belt.


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## plbgbiz

Thekid said:


> Hi all
> 
> I am a first year apprentice and where I am working it is non union. I am wondering is union better or worse. I would love to hear your opions


After re-reading your question, I believe there is already a fundamental problem with you. This is either because of your own nature, or because of stupid people you have listened to. In between the lines of your question I see a bit of the "grass is greener" (GIG) syndrome.

This is a common ailment amongst plumbers. Even with some of the seasoned ones. We always think everybody has a better deal. Why? Because everybody is telling us how great they are doing. So to combat these feelings, plumbers tell of all there successes (even if they are lies) when they see other guys at the supply house. Heaven forbid they admit they are keeping a job that is not as good as yours.

Why are you thinking of changing work environments? What are you not getting? Who told you you're getting GIG'ed? Does your shop seem unfair? Are you not being taught? Do they have training? Are your workmates undesirable? Is the owner undesirable? How do you feel about your pay rate? Do you get benefits? Do you not like the type of work you are doing?

Personally, I hate the GIG illness. It is counterproductive. Focus on what you like and don't like about your current situation and then your course will be clearer.

I have a non-Union shop to thank for much of my supposed success. Many others can same the same for Union work. In the end, it is what you make it.


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## U666A

plbgbiz said:


> After re-reading your question, I believe there is already a fundamental problem with you. This is either because of your own nature, or because of stupid people you have listened to. In between the lines of your question I see a bit of the "grass is greener" (GIG) syndrome.
> 
> This is a common ailment amongst plumbers. Even with some of the seasoned ones. We always think everybody has a better deal. Why? Because everybody is telling us how great they are doing. So to combat these feelings, plumbers tell of all there successes (even if they are lies) when they see other guys at the supply house. Heaven forbid they admit they are keeping a job that is not as good as yours.
> 
> Why are you thinking of changing work environments? What are you not getting? Who told you you're getting GIG'ed? Does your shop seem unfair? Are you not being taught? Do they have training? Are your workmates undesirable? Is the owner undesirable? How do you feel about your pay rate? Do you get benefits? Do you not like the type of work you are doing?
> 
> Personally, I hate the GIG illness. It is counterproductive. Focus on what you like and don't like about your current situation and then your course will be clearer.
> 
> I have a non-Union shop to thank for much of my supposed success. Many others can same the same for Union work. In the end, it is what you make it.


Again, Mr. Biz, bravo.

As per usual, a very level headed statement, taking all factors into consideration...

How do you do it?

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## plbgbiz

U.A.til.I.die said:


> ...How do you do it?


Very simple, I know good ideas when I steal them. :laughing:

I am merely repeating what the Masters in my old shop and the shops you came up in, tried to teach us.


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## Richard Hilliard

My experience from an area where unions are strong they seemed to control the commercial end and receive more education and experience in the commercial end of it.(on the job experience) Where non-union enjoyed the residential aspect of plumbing. That may have changed in the last 20 years.

I do not see one way better than another way. Both have great shops and both have bad shops. Both have exceptional owners and both have bad owners. Benefits at that point are not relevant to how happy anyone is if the shop is bad.


Living and working in a right to work state there are not that many Union shops and I have noticed here that many of the plumbers do not attend apprenticeship school. I also noticed the pay scale here is a lot less than they are in areas where the plumbers are represented. Thank God that you live in an area that is represented which affects all plumbers in that area.

What the majority of these guys are saying is it is how things are wroed or stated that make a difference. Pretty much the same thing at home with the wife when she asks me how she looks in that dress. I better like it ,if I say it makes your butt look big I am in trouble. Sometimes selective hearing is the best alternative.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

I've been successful ever since I left the union in 2000. I don't like being told what to do, at any age.


Last big job I was on: 8th floor at Bel-Terra Hotel room in Indiana, doing copper stubouts. Easy work, but the majority of plumbers on that job were travellers.

Always good for stories about ex-wives and how they have all their checks go to child support. 

$24.00/hour back in 1999, benefit package was $38.00/hour...

40 and out the door in new construction, paycheck after 18 deductions >>> Maybe $600-$700 a week. 

That's not making money. It truly isn't.


The union is great for education though... you will gain that if you're willing to seek it out. The more feathers in your cap (credentials) the better chance you have to keep steady at work. 

Do NOT expect to be compensated on the hourly though. Seniority or moving to supervisor positions bring you $1-$3 on the hour, but you'll be earning that heavily. No free rides and you'll feel the same stress as a business owner. 

Pick what fits your motivation.


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## U666A

Now look what you've done... You've upset Richard! :jester:

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## RealLivePlumber

Its a damn good thing the kid didn't ask about silicone. 

or pex.

You guys are unbelievable.


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## easttexasplumb

RealLivePlumber said:


> Its a damn good thing the kid didn't ask about silicone.
> 
> or pex.
> 
> You guys are unbelievable.


What about silicone and pex? :whistling2:


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## Widdershins

easttexasplumb said:


> What about silicone and pex? :whistling2:


 What? You don't silicone your pex?:whistling2:


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## easttexasplumb

Widdershins said:


> What? You don't silicone your pex?:whistling2:


of course thats the only way it can be run outdoors, the silicone keeps the UV rays off the pipe :cool2:.


sorry about being off topic, but I am not touching this topic.


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## Richard Hilliard

U.A.til.I.die said:


> Now look what you've done... You've upset Richard! :jester:
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


 

I do not get upset, just frustrated.


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## PlumberPete

There's those who can and those who can't join the union.:laughing:


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## Airgap

I wonder if the kid's picked out a sawzall yet? Or decided to go flat rate...That would really be dumb.....


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## Airgap

CardinalPumbing said:


> There's those who can and those who can't join the union.:laughing:


Yeah, I'd say you definitely can't join the union....


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## Widdershins

Airgap said:


> I wonder if the kid's picked out a sawzall yet? Or decided to go flat rate...That would really be dumb.....


 I'd opt for the 28 volt cordless hourly rate, of course.:boxing:


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## plbgbiz

Richard Hilliard said:


> I do not get upset, just frustrated.


Don't mess with the Richard. :jester:


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## U666A

plbgbiz said:


> Don't mess with the Richard. :jester:


ROTFLMFAO!!! that there's funny, dont care who y'are!!!

BTW, I was only kidding Richard. : jester:

Sent from my iPhone using Remorse


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## plbgbiz

U.A.til.I.die said:


> ...BTW, I was only kidding Richard. : jester:...



Me too. Just playin'


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## Richard Hilliard

Yeah I know. whew I just cut the first row of trees so you can see the rest of the forest! Then I realized I just made another first row of trees.All that work for nothing!!!


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## U666A

Richard Hilliard said:


> Yeah I know. whew I just cut the first row of trees so you can see the rest of the forest! Then I realized I just made another first row of trees.All that work for nothing!!!


It's a riddle wrapped in a conundrum, wrapped in an enigma...

I've gone cross-eyed.....

Sent from my iPhone using Mass confusion and chaos...


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## PlumberShep

Thekid said:


> I am just a 17 year old kid working my ass off to become a plumber. All I want to do is learn and get valuable info from people who have been doing this for a lot longer then me. I don't need you riping on me. Sorry I offended you just trying to gather more information so I can furthur my career


At 17 you should consider career options besides plumbing as well.If you were to start soon, by age 25-26 you could be finished with a degree that would make you alot more money than plumbing will.Just a thought.Good luck either way.


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## Thekid

PlumberShep said:


> At 17 you should consider career options besides plumbing as well.If you were to start soon, by age 25-26 you could be finished with a degree that would make you alot more money than plumbing will.Just a thought.Good luck either way.


Thanks but no thanks I want to be a plumber and I don't really care about the money because I enjoy what I am doing. Thank you for the input I appreciate it.


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## U666A

Thekid said:


> Thanks but no thanks I want to be a plumber and I don't really care about the money because I enjoy what I am doing. Thank you for the input I appreciate it.


Good luck Tiger, we wish you well. 

I don't know if I read your intro... Are you a registered apprenti? What kind of company do you work for? What areas do they specialize in? How long have you been in the trade?

Sent from my iPhone using Interrogation tactics.


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## Thekid

Yes I am registered. It is A commerical company and we specialize in new construction. I have been in the trade for about 6 months now as I am only 17


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## Widdershins

Thekid said:


> Thanks but no thanks I want to be a plumber and I don't really care about the money because I enjoy what I am doing. Thank you for the input I appreciate it.


 You really need to set your sights higher, Son.

The Trades are an honorable profession, no doubt about it, but the world is your oyster at 17.

Don't sell yourself short.

As for not caring about the money -- You'll reach an age where responsibility surpasses cash flow.

It's been a very long time since I was hungry and wondering about my next gig and a roof over my head, but not long enough ago to forget how it felt.

I'm just saying. . . . .


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## U666A

Thekid said:


> Yes I am registered. It is A commerical company and we specialize in new construction. I have been in the trade for about 6 months now as I am only 17


Good for you skippy, back when I was a boy, I wasn't allowed in the local paper mill as a 17 year old first year (and that's where the big money shut down were  )

And don't listen to father time up there
^^^^^^^

You chose a great proffession. Just be smart about it, I just received results for an MRI I had done and I have arthritis and a pinched nerve, probably from working those same shutdowns...

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Thekid

U.A.til.I.die said:


> Good for you skippy, back when I was a boy, I wasn't allowed in the local paper mill as a 17 year old first year (and that's where the big money shut down were  )
> 
> And don't listen to father time up there
> ^^^^^^^
> 
> You chose a great proffession. Just be smart about it, I just received results for an MRI I had done and I have arthritis and a pinched nerve, probably from working those same shutdowns...
> 
> I'm sorry to hear that. I am happy to be able to be in this trade and look foward to being in the trade for a long time


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## plbgbiz

Mr Kid,

I must again agree with my Organized brother. Very rare is the man that loves his job. That my friend is worth far more than you can imagine at your age. Yes college is great. But trade work should not be dumbed down to a last resort for those that can't cut it in school.

Our trade desperately needs young men (& women) that love the work they do. I think it is sad that a young person expressing this much interest in being a career plumber is being discouraged by plumbers. :sad:

What's wrong with sticking with a career you love, has a respectable wage, and is likely to never be eliminated? Pursuing the pot of gold in the white collar world is a tough row to hoe. There are a lot of degreed professionals working the night shift at 7-11. On the other hand...a bright, energetic, sober, clean, professional, well spoken, hard working young man will never be out of work with a plumbing license in his pocket.

Stay the course Kid. We may give you grief but we want you to grow up to be a pro.


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## plbgbiz

PlumberShep said:


> At 17 you should consider career options besides plumbing as well.If you were to start soon, by age 25-26 you could be finished with a degree that would make you alot more money than plumbing will.Just a thought.Good luck either way.


Or stick to your passion and by the age of 25-26 you could be telling the new cubs how it's gonna be or maybe own your own company.


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## Thekid

Thanks much appreciated


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## Widdershins

> Our trade desperately needs young men (& women) that love the work they do. I think it is sad that a young person expressing this much interest in being a career plumber is being discouraged by plumbers. :sad:


 I agree that an infusion of New Blood would be great -- Still, I field a lot of calls from laid off Journeymen and Apprentices looking for work.

The herd is thinning as we speak. The bubble burst. A lot of these people are going to stay laid off.


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## plbgbiz

Widdershins said:


> I agree that an infusion of New Blood would be great -- Still, I field a lot of calls from laid off Journeymen and Apprentices looking for work.
> 
> The herd is thinning as we speak. The bubble burst. A lot of these people are going to stay laid off.


Agreed, but some of that fat needed to leave anyway. I believe someone that has his sights set from the beginning on being a pro, has a great future as a plumber.

I see a number of jp's out of work as well. However, I have yet to meet one worth having that didn't have a good job with a boss trying to take care of him. That of course is just in my limited area here.


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## Thekid

I am up in Canada (ottawa) and there is no shortage of work where I am everyone is always hiring


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## retired rooter

I am 61 yrs old and if I had it all to do over again, I would??????????


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## easttexasplumb

plbgbiz said:


> Agreed, but some of that fat needed to leave anyway. I believe someone that has his sights set from the beginning on being a pro, has a great future as a plumber.
> 
> I see a number of jp's out of work as well. However, I have yet to meet one worth having that didn't have a good job with a boss trying to take care of him. That of course is just in my limited area here.


 
And when you ask them where they worked before they name off about 10 companies.


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## U666A

easttexasplumb said:


> And when you ask them where they worked before they name off about 10 companies.


My home local has what is known as a 1:1 hiring ratio. This means that a contractor must take the man at the top of the list first, then he may hire anyone by name from anywhere on the list be chooses, and the process repeats.

The mechanical contractors assoc of On (MCAO is the other bargaining party to our collective agreement) has been desperately trying to push through "100% name hire" ever since I joined the local. Do you know who is afraid of this? The lazy ones and the loud mouths and those who are not skilled. Construction unions are a difficult place to survive, because the contractor does not have to put up with any of these factors. So the guys that have 10 t4's every year are going to find it harder and harder to get and to hold a job.

Sorry to the OP for the threadjack

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## plbgbiz

U.A.til.I.die said:


> ...The mechanical contractors assoc of On (MCAO is the other bargaining party to our collective agreement) has been desperately trying to push through "100% name hire" ever since I joined the local. Do you know who is afraid of this? The lazy ones and the loud mouths and those who are not skilled. Construction unions are a difficult place to survive, because the contractor does not have to put up with any of these factors. So the guys that have 10 t4's every year are going to find it harder and harder to get and to hold a job.
> 
> Sorry to the OP for the threadjack


Interesting point UA. Many non-union workers (including me) may be incorrectly lumping ALL union jobs into the same category. The opinion from the outside looking in is often that performance doesn't matter (ala teachers and/or auto makers unions). Apparently I was misinformed and all unions are not created equally.

Having the protection the union can give along with the ability to shine if you are a top notch worker is a great combination.

I think your comments are right in line with what the OP (and maybe some others) should to know.


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## U666A

Thanks John, for recognizing that. It is apalling that people believe that the UA would still be viable if they protected the weak or the lazy. That's not to say that there aren't the few that slip through the cracks with smooth talking or baglicking, but those type usually get promoted...:laughing:

Somebody on here has a sig that says "I've never been fired, but I've been laid off while they were still hiring..." and it is so true. There are still loopholes in the system that allow a contractor to over hire, and then trim the fat. The only penalty they face is that they lose hiring privileges for 2 weeks. Big deal.

OTOH, it is a flawed system in the regard that I have seen good men get black balled from a job or a contracting firm altogether, because they had a dispute with a steward or a foreman or what have you. 

100% name hire will also hurt newer members, simply because nobody wants to take a chance on a stranger. But how's a guy supposed to make a name for himself? Then that same guy sits on the list for ages because now he is deemed unemployable...
"if so and so made it all the way to #1 on the list, he must be pretty useless..." which is not necessarily true, given what I have just stated.

I was the first one to jump into this thread saying I didn't want to see an argument develop, I am only trying to share information John.

Sent from my iPhone using Knowledge and factual information.


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## easttexasplumb

Nobody has answered the kids question which is one is better Union or non union :whistling2::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Richard Hilliard

Union or non union is a personal individual decision. It depends on what you want and need.

Saying that, nice to sit on the fence isn’t it. LOL
I say learn the trade AND go to college. You can never have enough education and options. I am extremely happy with the education I have and I really need to go back and finish. Our bodies get destroyed in time and to have an option in life after 50 is a wonderful thing.


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## wundumguy

A trade union like the UA cannot prosper if the union contractors cannot carry on a profitable operation. Classes for pre-apprentices in my local, and presumably many other UA locals, includes lectures on matters of concern to our contractors: sometimes razor thin margins just to keep the team together; tardiness and absenteeism can cost the contractor many additional hours to work around the idiot; financial penalties may exist when a contractor cannot deliver on time; clients will not award another job to the contractor that doesn't deliver quality; injuries from carelessness and pranks result in lost time, lost productivity, and increased insurance costs for the contractor; that every UA contractor that fails means fewer opportunities for future UA members. Accountability is a component of in-school training that starts at the pre-apprentice level.

As a manager, I've never managed a union shop. As a tradesman, I've worked both union and non-union shops and attended both union and non-union schools. In my experience, all manner and quality of people and organizations exist in every industry or occupation and of every affiliation. It would be self-deluding for UA members to insist that we do not carry dead weight in our membership. On the other hand, it would be unfair to deny that this is not also true in the non-union workplace. I've been in shops where certain guys are there only because they're the manager's friend's kid, best friends with the foreman, the owner's nephew, or engaged to the partner's grand daughter, etc. Claiming that this only happens on the other side of the fence is wilful ignorance. Often, especially during bad times, these things eventually take care of themselves. There will exist situations where it seems some guy on the tools is not among the best tradesman value for their wages, but they might be great relationship builders with clients or posses some other organizational qualities etc. Yet, at other times, that future grandson in-law is both the hardest working and smartest guy on the job!

There can be many misconeptions between the cultures and method of operation of the two workplaces. Often, these misconceptions are perpetuated by individuals who color or exagerate stories for their own self-interests. Other times by individuals who simply didn't cut it at one or several organizations and blame it on the union or non union workplace. Other times, the criticism may be reasonably fair given the individual's personal perspective, but may not adequately respresent the underlying situation or fairly characterize the predominant environment encountered by most.


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## Plumberman

Of course I am pro Union.

Been working steady for 8 years. I dropped out of college my freshman year on a full paid athletic scholarship. Due to my 3rd knee surgery at the age of 19. 

Once I left there I went into trade school. By the time I turned out I was running large scale work at the 25-26 years old. I don't know everything there is to know about plumbing, I learn on a daily bases but the schooling I got and the top journeyman I worked with in my area have made me what I am in this trade today. 

I'm not saying that there aren't some jam up non union plumbers because there are. Tons of them on this forum.

But the hands on training and textbook schooling you receive in trade school is bar none. In the end you have to decide for yourself what fits you, I am in to organizing everybody, so if your willing to door is open....


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## U666A

wundumguy said:


> A trade union like the UA cannot prosper if the union contractors cannot carry on a profitable operation. Classes for pre-apprentices in my local, and presumably many other UA locals, includes lectures on matters of concern to our contractors: sometimes razor thin margins just to keep the team together; tardiness and absenteeism can cost the contractor many additional hours to work around the idiot; financial penalties may exist when a contractor cannot deliver on time; clients will not award another job to the contractor that doesn't deliver quality; injuries from carelessness and pranks result in lost time, lost productivity, and increased insurance costs for the contractor; that every UA contractor that fails means fewer opportunities for future UA members. Accountability is a component of in-school training that starts at the pre-apprentice level.
> 
> As a manager, I've never managed a union shop. As a tradesman, I've worked both union and non-union shops and attended both union and non-union schools. In my experience, all manner and quality of people and organizations exist in every industry or occupation and of every affiliation. It would be self-deluding for UA members to insist that we do not carry dead weight in our membership. On the other hand, it would be unfair to deny that this is not also true in the non-union workplace. I've been in shops where certain guys are there only because they're the manager's friend's kid, best friends with the foreman, the owner's nephew, or engaged to the partner's grand daughter, etc. Claiming that this only happens on the other side of the fence is wilful ignorance. Often, especially during bad times, these things eventually take care of themselves. There will exist situations where it seems some guy on the tools is not among the best tradesman value for their wages, but they might be great relationship builders with clients or posses some other organizational qualities etc. Yet, at other times, that future grandson in-law is both the hardest working and smartest guy on the job!
> 
> There can be many misconeptions between the cultures and method of operation of the two workplaces. Often, these misconceptions are perpetuated by individuals who color or exagerate stories for their own self-interests. Other times by individuals who simply didn't cut it at one or several organizations and blame it on the union or non union workplace. Other times, the criticism may be reasonably fair given the individual's personal perspective, but may not adequately respresent the underlying situation or fairly characterize the predominant environment encountered by most.


Well ****, you almost brought a tear to my eye with that WDG.

That is one of the most profound, intelligent and incredibly insightful opinions on the subject I have ever encountered on this forum, nay, in my entire career.

I feel privileged for having read that, and would love a chance to discuss this matter further with you via a more private avenue.

I would also care to hear your opinions on some other matters which seem to instill some cloudy emotions amongst the membership such as the Standard for Excellence and perhaps some other matters.

Wundumguy, please feel free to contact me via PM if you care to discuss any of this further. Perhaps we can exchange email or some other conduit.

UA

Sent from my iPhone using Unbridled patriotic union pride!


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## Tommy plumber

Whenever I need books or to re-certify my backflow and med-gas, I do that through my local 630 union hall. They don't charge extra to members in good standing. 

For example, a code book was like $ 60.00 to me. When I checked the Int'l. Code Council's website, the same book was priced higher than my local was giving it to me for. That and other benefits, not the least of which is a pension, make unions a better choice, at least from my point of view....:thumbsup:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

*Not to throw another log on the fire*

But given the union proudly represents who they actually are, 



Why is the best kept secret whether affiliated or non-affiliated have to do with the number of apprentices, plumbers, pipefitters, ironworkers, sheet metal, sprinkler fitters,


Why can't they publicly display the number of men and women on the bench at any given time, that way it's no big secret. I don't think I'd want to join a union where 479 people that came to the union to work, don't have a job and they are waiting for a phone call. 


I randomly get the numbers from the local I used to belong to. First attitudes fly off as "well if they was good workers they wouldn't be on the bench" 

and I recall this being a huge mistruth. Statistically there will be some no counts but not the entire group, at all times every year any year.


I don't care about the gainfully employed or self owners that are union, I'm talking about what makes a union in respect to being a place to go and get a job without being laid off once twice three times a year because of work shortages. Once your subpay is gone, you're scabbing to feed your family. Bad word in unions and they wouldn't hesitate to brand you/toss you if they caught you.


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## U666A

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> But given the union proudly represents who they actually are,
> 
> Why is the best kept secret whether affiliated or non-affiliated have to do with the number of apprentices, plumbers, pipefitters, ironworkers, sheet metal, sprinkler fitters,
> 
> Why can't they publicly display the number of men and women on the bench at any given time, that way it's no big secret. I don't think I'd want to join a union where 479 people that came to the union to work, don't have a job and they are waiting for a phone call.
> 
> I randomly get the numbers from the local I used to belong to. First attitudes fly off as "well if they was good workers they wouldn't be on the bench"
> 
> and I recall this being a huge mistruth. Statistically there will be some no counts but not the entire group, at all times every year any year.
> 
> I don't care about the gainfully employed or self owners that are union, I'm talking about what makes a union in respect to being a place to go and get a job without being laid off once twice three times a year because of work shortages. Once your subpay is gone, you're scabbing to feed your family. Bad word in unions and they wouldn't hesitate to brand you/toss you if they caught you.


 That is all very valid information Steve and I appreciate you having the courage to bring it up. An ever important facet of life in the UA is that there might not always be jobs for all members of a certain local, and when that is true, the work is shared. Sometimes it will be you getting the call, and then you take your rotation to the bottom of the list, and next time it is your brethren getting the call.

Sure there are exceptions... I was lucky enough to have been indentured through a large mech. contractor through my apprenticeship and have been pretty steady with them since then. And there are a ton of members telling a story just like mine. But the vast majority do live in an environment exactly as Dunby has described.

As Mr. Biz stated, there are pros and cons to organized lanour, and the same applies to the non-union sector.

The direct correlation here is that OTOH, if your services are no longer required at a non-union shop, what is your course of action? Update your resume? Hit up online job banks?

These are all important factors to consider when deciding where you want to go with a trade, and you definitely have the opportunity to switch from one to the other...

Good luck to you son, with all your future endeavors.

UA


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## drs

Just wondering how does UNION EMPLOYEES feel about UNION EMPLOYEES banging on the front door of the homes owned by NON UNION Business owners to "Inform" the family of the Business Owner "Taking food out of little kids mouth" because of their Non Union business? 

How about your family being followed by them?


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## allnone

No better experience then hands on.


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