# Watts Floodsafe? Not Very!



## Redwood

For some time I have been posting telling people to avoid Watts Floodsafe supplies for Toilets, Faucets, Icemakers, Dishwashers, and Washing Machines.

I have been posting telling of how I had a customer have one break at the compression connector to the Floodsafe Valve connection point causing a lot of water damage to his home.











The day I did that job I did not have a camera with me to get a picture of the evidence. The Floodsafe Supply was not installed by me as I was already avoiding them because of the nuisance trips that are fairly well known to happen with them. The supply was retained by the customer as evidence.

Recently a person seeing one of my posts on this connection failure E-Mailed me photo's of the same thing happening at his house. A Watts Floodsafe Dishwasher Supply failed at the same connection that I was talking about. The connector was not over tightened, 1/3 of a turn with the wrench and the compression connector was turning by hand, pressure was 70 PSI. the valve just blew apart on it's own flooding the house and causing about $25K in damage maybe higher if the entire wood floor has to come up or, just the kitchen portion.

In his own words, "I think the valve was poorly manufactured or damaged during manufacture. Like I said before, no freeze, no physical damage I could see. Just blew all by itself. Bury Watts all you want, this product is crap."

Here is a picture of the failed connector under the sink.










Here is a picture of the failed connector. Note how the connection between the compression fitting and the safety valve is where the failure occurred. This left the compression fitting on the stop valve spraying water while the safety valve blew off.










Here is a picture of the label on the failed Watts Floodsafe Dishwasher Supply.










This is a picture of the flooded kitchen hardwood floor.










This is a picture of the ceiling below the kitchen prior to demo.










And this is the picture of the same area after demo.


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## ILPlumber

I know they take longer, but I do love rigid supplies.


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## user823

Has anyone ever tried the white colored pex 3/8 risers? My rep gave me a handful to try, haven't used them yet but they seem like they would work pretty good.


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## Ron

ironranger said:


> Has anyone ever tried the white colored pex 3/8 risers? My rep gave me a handful to try, haven't used them yet but they seem like they would work pretty good.


Yes they work just fine. I have installed allot in the past.


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## ILPlumber

I've never used one. Do they require an inner stiffener at the compression joint?


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## Ron

No, but you need to use the plastic compression sleeve


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Not to rain on the parade, but those pex risers have a habit of snaping off right at the edge of the ferrule and nut after 10-12 years if there's any bend in the line. 

They harden up like every plastic does, then becomes brittle. If someone really turns a hard bend in the product, like for a toilet riser, that line will split right at the upper part of the turn. 

I might be able to muster a few pictures of this, and new construction plumbers habitually use those damn brass ferrules which cut right into the edge of plastic.


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## super plumber

i avoid anything with the WATTS name on it. a few years ago i was pushing the WATTS intelliflow washing machine valves...i eventually replaced about every damn i of them..about 30 or so. WATTS said they had not heard of any problems...BS. stay away from WATTS


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## I'mYourTourGuide

That's why it says "turn the water on SLOWLY".

They know if you turn it on after installing and the hammer surge hits, it'll bust right in your face, haha.


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## Ron

Roast Duck said:


> Not to rain on the parade, but those pex risers have a habit of snaping off right at the edge of the ferrule and nut after 10-12 years if there's any bend in the line.
> 
> They harden up like every plastic does, then becomes brittle. If someone really turns a hard bend in the product, like for a toilet riser, that line will split right at the upper part of the turn.
> 
> I might be able to muster a few pictures of this, and new construction plumbers habitually use those damn brass ferrules which cut right into the edge of plastic.


That's why I said use the plastic ferrules, compression sleeve.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

I will say, I've seen more failures with brass ferrules than plastic by far.


I posted the above picture in 2006 somewhere on the internet and described how many thousands of dollars it cost in property damage. 


When people have these gray or white ones in their home, I tell them they are on borrowed time as where the ferrules compress to the piping, they become brittle. I've seen the fused tops pop off as well, but always leak before blowing apart. 

It's the cheapest supply line on the market and when they bust, it's always property damage. With copper it is usually noticed sooner than later of the problem and doesn't "abruptly" fail. 

I used those back in the early 90's but stopped for the reason that I felt I was being too much of a risk taker, following the idea of servicing those same customer years from then. 

I don't work for them anymore; a lot of them died off. I guess I'm next. 



Guess how many thousands this plastic nut cost a homeowner...










Nobody was home when it broke loose, abruptly.


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## WestCoastPlumber

What about deltas new kitchen faucet that comes with the supplies already installed? to new of a product to give an opinion on? I personaly don't like it. I like to use the braided stainless supply lines. 

I hate flood safe, I have had to many stick and cause pressure problems.

junk.


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## pzmember

in the early days all i used was brass and chrome plated brass supplys. ive gotten into the pex lav supplys w/ plastic ferrules, and braided stainless closet supplies. i have not had any problems but i have been kickin around the idea of going back to old school. i didnt have problems w/ metal and i havent had problems w/ plastic. i feel im being pushed toward what is cheaper rather than what is a little more and proven.


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## WestCoastPlumber

I see the 1 piece flex and stops blow all the time and flood. I always replace those. junk


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## user4

WestCoastPlumber said:


> What about deltas new kitchen faucet that comes with the supplies already installed? to new of a product to give an opinion on? I personaly don't like it. I like to use the braided stainless supply lines.
> 
> I hate flood safe, I have had to many stick and cause pressure problems.
> 
> junk.


Braided lines and poly lines are illegal in Chicago, some inspectors frown on 3/8 OD lines and would prefer to see 1/2 OD lines on all fixtures.


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## WestCoastPlumber

really? I hate poly plastic braided lines, they fail. I am surprised braided stainless supplies are illegal, that is crazy, so do you install the 1 piece corrigated stops and supplies??


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## user4

WestCoastPlumber said:


> really? I hate poly plastic braided lines, they fail. I am surprised braided stainless supplies are illegal, that is crazy, so do you install the 1 piece corrigated stops and supplies??


This is the stop we use more than any other.


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## WestCoastPlumber

Killertoiletspider said:


> This is the stop we use more than any other.


 


I like that, must be very $$$$$$.


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## user4

WestCoastPlumber said:


> I like that, must be very $$$$$$.


$35.00 each our cost.


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## smellslike$tome

Roast Duck said:


> I will say, I've seen more failures with brass ferrules than plastic by far.
> 
> 
> I posted the above picture in 2006 somewhere on the internet and described how many thousands of dollars it cost in property damage.
> 
> 
> When people have these gray or white ones in their home, I tell them they are on borrowed time as where the ferrules compress to the piping, they become brittle. I've seen the fused tops pop off as well, but always leak before blowing apart.
> 
> It's the cheapest supply line on the market and when they bust, it's always property damage. With copper it is usually noticed sooner than later of the problem and doesn't "abruptly" fail.
> 
> I used those back in the early 90's but stopped for the reason that I felt I was being too much of a risk taker, following the idea of servicing those same customer years from then.
> 
> I don't work for them anymore; a lot of them died off. I guess I'm next.
> 
> 
> 
> Guess how many thousands this plastic nut cost a homeowner...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody was home when it broke loose, abruptly.


Holy cow we agree completely on something! I have installed probably hundreds of these when I was doing new con. The first time I found one fractured like that was the day I went back to soft copper supplies. I have not installed another pex supply since. I use pex routinely and have no problem doing so but no more pex supplies for me. I have seen many failed pex supplies.

Can I use your photos?


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## smellslike$tome

Oh yeah, the floodsafes suck too.


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## M5Plumb

ironranger said:


> Has anyone ever tried the white colored pex 3/8 risers? My rep gave me a handful to try, haven't used them yet but they seem like they would work pretty good.



I've had no problem with them either.:thumbsup:


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## WestCoastPlumber

Killertoiletspider said:


> $35.00 each our cost.


 
not to be stupid, but how does it install?


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## user4

WestCoastPlumber said:


> not to be stupid, but how does it install?


How is asking stupid?

They are threaded, we install a drop ear 90 in the wall and use brass nipples. They are expensive, a pain in the ass to install as they have no flat spots for a wrench. but they do give an elegant appearance if they are roughed exactly right for the fixture. 

The riser you see is a cover tube that is trimmable to hide the supply lines, when we use them with faucets from the same manufacturer they work out well, as the faucects come with factory installed braided stainless flex lines that the inspectors never see.


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## Plumber

WestCoastPlumber said:


> What about deltas new kitchen faucet that comes with the supplies already installed? to new of a product to give an opinion on? I personaly don't like it. I like to use the braided stainless supply lines.


I install my first one today and while it worked, I didn't like it. Delta did away with the ball assembly, too. Using that new Diamond Technology or whatever.

The good thing is the one piece plate design. No more brass bolts.

I still emailed a complaint to Delta about the changes. The biggest selling points was the brass inners and the ball assembly and they changed it. 

Kohler screwed up by getting rid of the Ingenium system, too.

Man, its getting hard to find quality product.


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## Protech

Show me one with a plastic ferrel on there. You are not supposed to use brass ferruls on pex and that is why.



Roast Duck said:


> I will say, I've seen more failures with brass ferrules than plastic by far.
> 
> 
> I posted the above picture in 2006 somewhere on the internet and described how many thousands of dollars it cost in property damage.
> 
> 
> When people have these gray or white ones in their home, I tell them they are on borrowed time as where the ferrules compress to the piping, they become brittle. I've seen the fused tops pop off as well, but always leak before blowing apart.
> 
> It's the cheapest supply line on the market and when they bust, it's always property damage. With copper it is usually noticed sooner than later of the problem and doesn't "abruptly" fail.
> 
> I used those back in the early 90's but stopped for the reason that I felt I was being too much of a risk taker, following the idea of servicing those same customer years from then.
> 
> I don't work for them anymore; a lot of them died off. I guess I'm next.
> 
> 
> 
> Guess how many thousands this plastic nut cost a homeowner...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody was home when it broke loose, abruptly.


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## pipes

I am not defending nor supporting any item or manufacturer but, with all the p*ssing and moaning about this s*cks or that stuff is crap , did any of you stop to think about the person who installed it. Was he/she any smarter than the object they installed? I found most failures are due to poor installation or the wrong application for the product.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Protech said:


> Show me one with a plastic ferrel on there. You are not supposed to use brass ferruls on pex and that is why.


 

Give me some time, and I'll build of collage of these with both the brass and plastic ferrules.

The problem is when the nut tightens down, it compresses the ferrule to the mating surface that meshes with the brass valve, and also firms up ferrule to pipe. At that point, that plastic is "changed" because it is now under pressure by the tightening of the nut. 

Codes warn on PVC, which is plastic as well, not to "pull/strain/redirect" plastic piping into position to obtain the location of the pipe. They state this because it hardens the pipe quicker, and it will break over time.

When I replace these risers, they sometimes will snap right in my hands upon removal when I'm lifting up to pull them out of the 3/8" port of the valve, or when I'm starting off at the top and dropping the connection down from removing the 5/8" nuts. 

I don't have much faith in the most inexpensive, cheapest supply line on the planet, as you can tell. Piping that breaks like dried twigs also break when they are hard turned into a valve, forcing it to do something that at first is very pliable, just give it years when it really matters for holding up, delivering lots of water pressure.


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## service guy

I use stainless steel braided supplies with brass nuts. They seem better than any of the plastic junk supplies, but I am not entirely happy with them, as occasionally I get a defective one that leaks at the nuts. I may even switch back to the chrome-plated metallic supplies as they seem to be the best.


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## WestCoastPlumber

Killertoiletspider said:


> How is asking stupid?
> 
> They are threaded, we install a drop ear 90 in the wall and use brass nipples. They are expensive, a pain in the ass to install as they have no flat spots for a wrench. but they do give an elegant appearance if they are roughed exactly right for the fixture.
> 
> The riser you see is a cover tube that is trimmable to hide the supply lines, when we use them with faucets from the same manufacturer they work out well, as the faucects come with factory installed braided stainless flex lines that the inspectors never see.


 
Sounds pretty simple as long as you have a good strap wrench. the flex line was tripping me out. 

Thanks!! they look durable and no packing to leak?


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## user4

WestCoastPlumber said:


> Sounds pretty simple as long as you have a good strap wrench. the flex line was tripping me out.
> 
> Thanks!! they look durable and no packing to leak?


They use quarter turn ceramic cartridges.


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## Protech

Pvc is a thermoset plastic and pex is an elastomer. What applies to one does not necessarily apply to the other.



Roast Duck said:


> Give me some time, and I'll build of collage of these with both the brass and plastic ferrules.
> 
> The problem is when the nut tightens down, it compresses the ferrule to the mating surface that meshes with the brass valve, and also firms up ferrule to pipe. At that point, that plastic is "changed" because it is now under pressure by the tightening of the nut.
> 
> Codes warn on PVC, which is plastic as well, not to "pull/strain/redirect" plastic piping into position to obtain the location of the pipe. They state this because it hardens the pipe quicker, and it will break over time.
> 
> When I replace these risers, they sometimes will snap right in my hands upon removal when I'm lifting up to pull them out of the 3/8" port of the valve, or when I'm starting off at the top and dropping the connection down from removing the 5/8" nuts.
> 
> I don't have much faith in the most inexpensive, cheapest supply line on the planet, as you can tell. Piping that breaks like dried twigs also break when they are hard turned into a valve, forcing it to do something that at first is very pliable, just give it years when it really matters for holding up, delivering lots of water pressure.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Protech said:


> Pvc is a thermoset plastic and pex is an elastomer. What applies to one does not necessarily apply to the other.


 
Then explain why both harden over time, and both have failure points that lead to property damage when they are pulled/bent into position.


I can't wear blinders and not say I haven't seen this hundreds of times.


I still remember the frantic property owner that had a PEX riser that I would assume was 8 years old, the plumber hard turned the PEX riser into the toilet's fill valve shank.


Room temperature, the line split wide open on the top of that hard turn before it went up and connected.


You and I both know that riser easily conformed to that twist turn, but when it was removed, it was stiff/hardened and no way could you remove the bends in that pipe. 

I never had the chance to know how much damage that caused on a 2nd floor to the basement, but it was abrupt and without warning when it went, the disturbing call from her was something I'd *never* want to hear with my name attached to a product like that.


Remember, it's the cheapest supply line on the market, I don't subject myself to that hardship down the road.


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## Protech

Pex doesn't harden over time. PVC and CPVC do however become less malleable and become brittle with age due to the removal/degradation of plasticizers in the mix. Pex is naturally flexible and needs little if any plasticizers added to the resin to make of flexible. As I said before one is a thermoset and one is an elastomer. Big difference.

How do we know the supply line pictures is in fact pex? It looks like polybutylene to me but it could be pex with grey die added to it. Do you actually see any lettering indicating that it is pex and not polybutylene? Quite a few plumbers can't tell the difference between the two just by look and feel. In not saying you are one of them, but are you positive that pipe is pex?



Roast Duck said:


> Then explain why both harden over time, and both have failure points that lead to property damage when they are pulled/bent into position.
> 
> 
> I can't wear blinders and not say I haven't seen this hundreds of times.
> 
> 
> I still remember the frantic property owner that had a PEX riser that I would assume was 8 years old, the plumber hard turned the PEX riser into the toilet's fill valve shank.
> 
> 
> Room temperature, the line split wide open on the top of that hard turn before it went up and connected.
> 
> 
> You and I both know that riser easily conformed to that twist turn, but when it was removed, it was stiff/hardened and no way could you remove the bends in that pipe.
> 
> I never had the chance to know how much damage that caused on a 2nd floor to the basement, but it was abrupt and without warning when it went, the disturbing call from her was something I'd *never* want to hear with my name attached to a product like that.
> 
> 
> Remember, it's the cheapest supply line on the market, I don't subject myself to that hardship down the road.


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## Sewerologist

super plumber said:


> i avoid anything with the WATTS name on it. a few years ago i was pushing the WATTS intelliflow washing machine valves...i eventually replaced about every damn i of them..about 30 or so. WATTS said they had not heard of any problems...BS. stay away from WATTS


I beat Watts to the patent on this product with the addition of a sensor in the pan to shut of flow of power and water. This is also the basis of their water heater control. It proved unreliable in long term testing on my part, I'm glad the whole picture has been seen on their part for infringing on my idea and not comunicating with me for the sake of the almighty dollar.


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## Herk

I'm sure the gray tubes in the pictures are polybutylene, not PEX. I've used a lot of them, and seen a lot of them, and have yet to see one that failed. As I've posted many times on these forums, my own house is plumbed in polybutylene and I've never had any problem at all. Of course, I've never used brass ferrules with plastic tubes.

They still sell the polybutylene tubes in a lot of stores. 

I think the secret's in the water - we don't have chlorine. The chlorinated water will destroy the small tubes as easily as it destroyed large PB under city streets if chlorine is present.

These days, I mostly use braided Fluidmaster flexes. Those aren't perfect, either. But they're better quality than a lot of other supplies.


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## user823

The grey water supplies in the pictures are not pex, you're right, they are polybutylene and they do get very brittle over time. I've had a ton of them break right in half when removing them.
The actual pex risers will not just "snap" or get hard over time. You do have to use the plastic type ferrules and you do have to use the inserts according to Viega, all supplies are in the Viega catalog. Also, the Viega Pex risers I'm starting to use are chlorine resistant as is all Viega piping.
These 3/8" Pex risers made by Viega have been in use for over 25 years according to the company without any problems. They are snow white in color and actually look very attractive when installed in a white bathroom for a toilet supply.
Myself I just started using them and like them so far. Are they cheaper? You bet they are, less than a buck each with nuts, insert and ferrule.
I'll keep using them for service work for now unless I hear something different.


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## Redwood

I guess this thread got jacked pretty good...

I guess we might as well talk about shrub winning the cup race out in vegas now....


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## user823




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## para1

I forgot what I was going to say:furious:


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