# I am not just an old grouch



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I know that a lot of the topics and or products that I get on a rant about seem like I am just an old timer that is against new stuff. But here's the real reason why I am against some of this stuff.

Shark Bites. product integrity aside. And we can argue O rings all day long. My big concern with them is that they allow a home owner to quickly and easily hack into the potable water system for god knows whatever reason. Possibly leading to cross contamination and or backflow. Yes he could do it to a copper or pex fitting also but it requires special tools and a bit of knowledge and may be enough to deter his actions.

AAV's It again is a mechanical device that up till a few years ago there was no need for. We always managed to properly vent fixtures without this abomonation and when you get down to it, isn't that what we get paid for? Also same homeowner cabal as sharkbites. An easy way to accomplish something that may very well pose a health problem.

Pex. I'm a little waffeley here because my company uses hundreds of thousands of feet of this stuff a year. Mostly for radiant, but we do do quite a few re-pipes and repairs with it also. Again, with the purchase of a 35 dollar crimper for Watts Pex, any uneducated homeowner can again cause huge problems. Also I am beginning to become very concerned with product liability here as I am beginning to see more and more lawsuits and discussions about restriction, flow rate, chlorene degradation, rodent damage, UV damage and, well all the same stuff that torpedoed Polybutylene. I won't quit using it just yet, but I will not be surprized if the day comes when I have to.

Tankless water heaters: if you add up the SFU in most any residence you will quickly see that a normal sized tankless water heater does not meet code. That local inspectors are willing to give them a pass is a result of the "green" hysteria that has gripped our nation.



As professional, licensed plumbers we have a responsibility to more than just the dollar. Many of the new products get to the marketplace because the code committees are populated with whores willing to sell out the trade for manufacturing kickbacks and bribes. It is ultimatly up to us to make informed, intelligent decisions as to the products we peddle. Just because something is code approved does not make it a good product. Remember that PolyButylene is still on the acceptable water piping list.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I've been preaching the same warnings for years and even though some of it is falling on deaf ears, 

I'm watching products that came with strength, only to disappear and become a property owner's headache. 

My visit to home depot tonight confirmed the obvious; All Zurn brass fittings for PEX was pulled off their shelves, all of it. 

Now it's QESTPEX...the stuff that was around years ago with primarily all plastic fittings.

I'm going to stop myself right here because I've made it clear about some of the things I won't touch in this profession. 

Does anyone want to put up a wager against mine that in the next 5-9 years, one of the well known PEX mfgs. will be subject to lawsuits due to product defect? 

Product liability lawsuits are only when the product fails to live to it's life expectancy, or it's use causes indirect property damage, piping failure as a result. 


Back in the 80's and 90's, PB, Blue-MAX, Failing Dip tubes were all found out, but not on the internet. With PEX being so popular now in installation practices, its time here in the states is a rolling time clock, and now we'll have the ability to hear and know the plumbers, the contractors that use the products and how they hold up as the time stamp grows. 


Has anyone, *anyone *figured out how and why we dont have plumbers on this forum, any forum on the internet AFAIK, not talking about how they installed a product they felt was so awesome, was the bestest in the world, and then went in failure mode? And then the piping they installed, similar to the product came out, is failing now as well? 

And it's starting to show up in Texas, same material. 

We are embarking upon a different track record in history now because if any of these products that are highly used in the plumbing profession are used, and widely talked about in their use,

there's going to be plenty of informational data on the internet of those with plumbing companies, those who installed it that will be forever etched into the 4 walls of the internet proclaiming their use, unlike the former class action lawsuits.

So, the sharkbites I use less than 20 a year gets me into a debacle when and if a lawsuit becomes of it, my statements online would very well incriminate me of being liable. It's amazing to know how easily it is to find information about yourself on the internet. 

Amazing how easily it would be for the lawyer who wants as much money as possible to go after those who installed defective, faulty plumbing systems. 

Don't rule it out; the internet age is always evolving and I'm sure there's software systems that can be built to follow ISP's, IP's, usernames, locations, reference to phone numbers or addresses. 

Just a passing thought...


Why is the UPC/NPC/IPC passing the use of these failing materials? You tell me. I'd say it is evident that the materials are used on a running start, and no one clearly knows the life of these new products until it is too late.


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## I'mYourTourGuide (Jun 23, 2008)

I like the asse 1061 fittings. 

AAVs are useless as tits on a boar hog in my opinion. I've had a run in with just one of them in a mobile home, and yes, it had already failed.

PB tubing is a joke.


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## brad7596 (Nov 1, 2008)

just a thought here downunder we have houses roughed in with yorkflex (sharkbite) i think its going to be a maintenance nightmare in the future. we have so many brands, with most exclusive to a supplier. now im starting to see a supplier selling imitation rehau made in china hmmmm. we have a standards boards but it has been found suppliers are selling inferior stuff and no one seems to be protecting the buyer. we had an example of a national hardware supplier selling copper advertised with a brand when in fact it was imported from korea and failed our standards well thats ok how much of it made it back on the recall i wonder.

anyway thats my 2c worth cheers brad


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

I'mYourTourGuide said:


> AAVs are useless as tits on a boar hog in my opinion. I've had a run in with just one of them in a mobile home, and yes, it had already failed.


The ones in a mobile home are cheap crap and are a completely different animal than the Studor vents, etc.


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## I'mYourTourGuide (Jun 23, 2008)

22rifle said:


> The ones in a mobile home are cheap crap and are a completely different animal than the Studor vents, etc.


Oh, well I don't really know a whole lot about them. . I know they're mechanical with a diaphragm and a spring, but that's about it.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

One problem is that no one is truley representing us, the plumbers. The manufacturers have dozens of marketing firms and advertising outlets to bolster their sales and though you might think the trade publications would do their best to fairly critique some of these products the they seem more interested in selling ad space. When was the last time you read a non biased product review in any of the trade's ? Then there's the PHCC. This at one time was "our" mouthpiece to the trade and industry but lately they have fallen into the same practice of bolstering the manufacturer and getting behind the bogus "green" movement. They seem more interested in selling code books and stuffing lobbiest money in their pockets than anything else. Where was the PHCC when AAV's, Sharkbites, and all this so called Green crap were introduced. I'll tell you where. Squarely behind the product. There's two reasons for that. One is there is hardly any voice of the working professional on their boards and the other is because the membership continues to pay dues to an organization that is at this point doing them more harm than good. And its all back door stuff. On the face the PHCC blows smoke up your ass with all ther business practice advice that seems pretty good while what they really need to be doing is fighting bogus legislation. Fighting the big box stores and fighting to keep unlicensed hacks from plumbing and gas work. If anything is going to change it is going to have to be us that change it. Either by phone calls, emails and or showing up at meetings and having a good rant. If we are not united and don't do something pretty quick, you are going to see a continued degradation and dumbing down of our profession (never say trade, electricians have a trade, carpenters have a trade, we have a profession)


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## BatonRougePlumb (Nov 21, 2008)

*Very good posts.*



nhmaster3015 said:


> One problem is that no one is truley representing us, the plumbers. The manufacturers have dozens of marketing firms and advertising outlets to bolster their sales and though you might think the trade publications would do their best to fairly critique some of these products the they seem more interested in selling ad space. When was the last time you read a non biased product review in any of the trade's ? Then there's the PHCC. This at one time was "our" mouthpiece to the trade and industry but lately they have fallen into the same practice of bolstering the manufacturer and getting behind the bogus "green" movement. They seem more interested in selling code books and stuffing lobbiest money in their pockets than anything else. Where was the PHCC when AAV's, Sharkbites, and all this so called Green crap were introduced. I'll tell you where. Squarely behind the product. There's two reasons for that. One is there is hardly any voice of the working professional on their boards and the other is because the membership continues to pay dues to an organization that is at this point doing them more harm than good. And its all back door stuff. On the face the PHCC blows smoke up your ass with all ther business practice advice that seems pretty good while what they really need to be doing is fighting bogus legislation. Fighting the big box stores and fighting to keep unlicensed hacks from plumbing and gas work. If anything is going to change it is going to have to be us that change it. Either by phone calls, emails and or showing up at meetings and having a good rant. If we are not united and don't do something pretty quick, you are going to see a continued degradation and dumbing down of our profession (never say trade, electricians have a trade, carpenters have a trade, we have a profession)



I agree with you 100%. 

I blame the plumbing contractors and not the manufacturers. It is ironic that many of the posts complaining about these new products are actually using them. Plumbers have been using copper pipe and brass for over 60 years. It appears the plumbers are always anxious to try new plastic products when they know they do not have a long history of testing and proving their life expectancy. We get asked about new products almost daily and we tell our customers to stick with the copper even though copper does get pinhole leaks in as few as 5 to 15 years. I think customers are not willing to take a chance, willing to listen, and the specs on blue prints can be modified. If you are concerned and want to drive away these new products call your local newspaper and have articles written. You will even get to throw in a plug for your company.


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

I'mYourTourGuide said:


> Oh, well I don't really know a whole lot about them. . I know they're mechanical with a diaphragm and a spring, but that's about it.


It's the rubber diaphragm that is the problem. The Studor vents don't have those.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Sorry but I 100% completely disagree. Show me any problems found with Viega or Wirsbo? Viega is the largest manufacturer of pex pipe in the world. They have over 25 years of proven installations, no problems, no lawsuits etc. How much longer do you need? I"m getting tired of a couple of folks here bashing the industry, it's getting really old.
Just like any other product in our industry you can buy junk or you can buy the good stuff, that's the way it's always been. Bashing the entire pex industry is uncalled for.
Pex is now the norm and it's here to stay. This isn't even close to the same scenerio as the old quest pipe, not even in the same ballpark.
I'll take that bet regarding viega or wirsbo any day. Bottom line, use quality materials and stay away from the big box store garbage.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Some interesting statistics.

Average annual pay for plumbers in the U.S is $44,000.00

As a percentage that figure (adjusted for inflation and such) is down 50% from the 1950's

Why? Good question. Lots of answers. Why are we in such a rush to "get er done"? Plastics, better tools, newer codes all make our job easier and much much faster. Easier and faster translates to less profit unless you are absolutly swamped with work. It means we have to do more work faster to make the same margin. So do we go back to the old ways just to protect our income? We could'nt even if we wanted to because contractors and homeowners are used to what we have been doing. This is a conundrum we, as businessmen have to deal with on the one hand and as craftsmen on the other. There is a balance there somewhere. Ironranger is correct in that only we in the end can determine the products that we feel comfortable with. There is crap on the market everywhere. What has always made me scratch my head though are the plumbers that boast that they can rough a 2 bath house in in a day and a half with pex and pvc. Nice, but what do you have lined up for Wednesday? I know that economy wise a lot of guys are hurting and so is their bottom line. Maybe we need to slow down a bit and smell the profit. :thumbsup: Even more head scratching is the DOE's forcast that there will be 100,000 new plumbers needed by 2012. Hell we are lucky to get 8 or 9 apprentices per class the last couple years.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Further musings: The other thing that is killing us is the big box stores. Even if homeowners and contractors are not buying the fixtures and pipe from them, they know how much the stuff costs (sort of) and then when we price a job they hit us with the " I can get that same toilet at cheepo deepo for 1/2 of what you are charging me" Yes you and I know that there are overhead and handling costs attached to that toilet but I'm sick and tired or having to explain that time and time again. Also because of the sliding economy, everyone thinks we should drop our prices and give them a break? WTF is with that mentalaty? I've been around this a long time now and it seems to me that 30 years ago we got a whole lot more respect from the clientel than we do now. Is that our fault or are we being eaten alive by a cancer we have no control over? I think we all need to start doing a whole lot more PR than we have over the last 25 years and get the respect back. That means uncompromising service and quality. That means standing behind our work and our code 110% and taking crap from no one. That means expressing your opinions to the state plumbing boards and code review commitees and getting on the legislation mailing list so that you can have your voice when some dumb assed ammendment comes up. Fight Fight Fight.....:thumbsup:


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## pzmember (Sep 20, 2008)

well i have to say you're not an old grouch. all the points made are valid, lucid, and spot on. if you think about it 50 years ago the homeowner had 2 choices white for fixtures and chrome for faucets. and the sam walton mentality had not caught on yet. yeah if you are a large corporation and have buying power you get a great break on inventory there by cutting our throats, thanks again big box america. and im not a big fan of sharkbites, my wholesaler sold a homeowner thousands of dollars of shark fittings and pipe so he could pipe his whole house. which i could have piped it for the same or just a little more with a conventional tried and true method. i got real pissed that my wholesaler would help w/ the cutting just so they could make a buck. all of the owners and all of the guys working for someone how much do we spend annually w/ wholesalers. who really has the buying power. i think kohler, delta, moen and thier ilk would rethink the big box break if all of the nations plumbers startes a unionized buying program. and boycotting materials until the playing field gets leveled.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

You know, none of this is anything new. I posted this some months back. Most of it is still valid today a hundred and some odd years later.

*The Baltimore resolutions of 1884*
In reguards to shoddy plumbing practice and inferior materials a group of Master Plumbers drew up this resolution which was the foundation of professional plumbing standards and practices. See how times have changed.

Whereas, the manufacturing and wholesale firms in plumbing materials persist in selling to consumers, to our injury and detriment, placing us toward our customers in the light of extorsionists, causing endless trouble; and

Whereas, The system of protecting us from this wrong, which draws in it's wake other wrongs, is innefective; it is absolutly necessary to perfect such a system, by united action, which will remove these evils from which we have suffered for years; therefore be it

Resolved, That we withdraw our patronage from any firm manufacturing or dealing in plumbers material selling to others than master plumbers.

Resolved, That the manufacturers of gas fixtures, selling to consumers shall not recieve the patronage of any master plumber.

Resolved, That the master plumbers shall demand of the manufacturers and wholesale dealers in plumbing materials to sell goods to none but master plumbers.

Resolved, That this association shall keep a record of all journeymen and plumbers who place in buildings, plumbing material bought by consumers of manufacturers or dealers.

Resolved, That and manufacturing or wholesale dealers, dealing in wrought iron pipe, who sell to consumers shall not receive our patronage.

Resolved, That a commitee be appointed by this association in every state and county, for the purpose of reporting to the proper officer at it's head in the state any violation of these resolutions.

Resolved, That these measures are just and necessary to our welfare, and a rigid enforcement is demanded.

Resolved, That this convention endorse the above, and urge upon the national association to perfect and adopt a uniform system of protection for the trade over their entire jurisdiction.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Barnett



mjcoleman said:


> well i have to say you're not an old grouch. all the points made are valid, lucid, and spot on. if you think about it 50 years ago the homeowner had 2 choices white for fixtures and chrome for faucets. and the sam walton mentality had not caught on yet. yeah if you are a large corporation and have buying power you get a great break on inventory there by cutting our throats, thanks again big box america. and im not a big fan of sharkbites, my wholesaler sold a homeowner thousands of dollars of shark fittings and pipe so he could pipe his whole house. which i could have piped it for the same or just a little more with a conventional tried and true method. i got real pissed that my wholesaler would help w/ the cutting just so they could make a buck. all of the owners and all of the guys working for someone how much do we spend annually w/ wholesalers. who really has the buying power. i think kohler, delta, moen and thier ilk would rethink the big box break if all of the nations plumbers startes a unionized buying program. and boycotting materials until the playing field gets leveled.


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## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

I agree with NHMaster! But I think the horse has left the barn. Too many plumbers, manufacturers, trade organizations just sold out for the almighty dollar (not much different than Wall Street). It's the human condition of GREED.

Pride has become a relic of the past. . . 

Sometimes my husband just says he's too old for this world anymore - for the record, he is not that old - just fed up with the crap!

We will continue to fight the good fight, but until every professional plumbers signs on, we are barely holding our ground.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

NH Master said:


> *I am not just an old grouch*


I would think "Wise Old Fart" would be about right!:laughing:


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

Everybody knows that plumbers are too expensive.

And that's part of the problem. 

We're on the defensive when we walk in the door. 

Most of the faucets I sell are "budget" models. People refuse to pay $120 or more for a faucet. And I have a clear memory that when I first started in business a good faucet only cost $20.

I'm more than willing to make copper repairs in copper. I'm also more than willing to charge about four times as much as if I were making the repair with PEX. It's a no-brainer which I'll be using.

Isn't cast iron great? 

No, not really. It must last better in some areas than it does here. I've replaced 30-year-old TySeal all the way through a house that you could stick your hand through at any point in its length. 

I've recently seen copper installed to code that was only a few years old with several pinholes. I have no idea why it failed. I know that someone can post something about PEX that failed, but I've never seen it. My own house is plumbed with polybutylene and I have never had one single problem with the plumbing. Not one. 

As to AAVs - there are places where they'd be really nice. I was up in Jackson Wyoming talking to some plumbers many years ago who were quite happy with plumbing entire houses with only one stack and no vents anywhere else. No inspections, no permits, no inspectors. One stack in the middle of the house. 

Now, if there were a good plumbing code that was enforced, and I mean enforced, all across this great nation, we might see some good plumbing systems. Don't hold your breath. We don't all live in Chicago, and we don't all do commercial.

Do you suppose those guys who string hoses around in restaurants for Pepsi or Coke are saying, "Gee, I really miss the days when we did all this in galvanized." 

We use what we must, and we try to be as good at installing it as we can. After all, we aren't the ones making the decisions regarding materials anymore. The politicos have taken over the code making from the old plumbers. No more lead pipe. No more galvanized pipe. No more buggy whips. We move on or we become obsolete ourselves.


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## Dr Steevil (Jan 25, 2009)

They have plumbing in Wyoming? Oh wait, yes they do...


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Herk said:


> Everybody knows that plumbers are too expensive.
> 
> And that's part of the problem.
> 
> ...


 
So, back to my "Abruptly Rupture" coined two worded phrase:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

When I get a call for a water service leak?

90% are plastic water line rupture, snap-off, separation immediately after the connection

When I get a call for a leak on a supply riser at a home?

Most times it is a PEX riser, a white vinyl braided hose with plastic inserts. If it is chrome-copper riser, it's always the compression ferrule that's leaking.

Since I'm an emergency service plumber, 

The industry moved to CPVC in my area about 10-15 years ago and when these pipe fittings fail, it's disasterous. It's always abrupt, sometimes violent acting when it does give away. I've never seen or heard a 3/4" Female Adaptor flood a house because someone was at the movies and enjoyed their day away.

So if you want to bash copper for freezing and not holding up,

Why is it the piping's fault when someone hasn't properly insulated their home? Ice expands? What is it, 100-1000 times its size when it grows? How durable do you want type M copper to be? 

If you have a wall with frozen water lines, copper will rupture and pinpoint the break, if PEX freezes you have top open that wall completely to unthaw it, or just tell the customer good luck and wait till it thaws. Someone mentioned hair dryer but who's going to pay that plumber to hair dry a wall? :laughing: Are plumbers going to have to carry torpedo heaters into the home, heat the house up without opening the walls to unthaw pipes now? You know the heat was already 72 degrees already.

I couldn't unthaw some plastic water services this year because you can't; it's in the ground and you can't use thaw machines because they do not conduct electricity.

When I get called for an emergency water leak, where damage is created and people are frantic,


why......is it always closely associated to plastic products most times. 

I'm preaching to choir here, I understand that, no problem.

I speak solely from the down the road perspective like I always do. I don't jump on bandwagons for any reason whatsoever. I've had to many plastic drain lines crack and bust abruptly, plastic water lines bust/crack/rupture/divide/split in such a unexpected way that almost every customer is alerted to the problem like they had no clue it was coming. 


Copper leaks are usually always gradual, just like galvanized piping. Cast iron is the same way, takes a long time to happen, usually gives the end user some ample time to make a decision to decide what's best for them. 

Every time I set a plastic closet flange, I know damn right well that someday that flange will turn a nice shade of light brown, be brittle and eventually crack at the closet bolt slots, it's guaranteed. Brass closet flanges were built for the long haul, indeed. Copper DWV systems lasted years before select trap arms like the kitchen sink, the toilet arm lost their way to what runs through them, acidic bases. I've wrote enough, but the bottom line, us plumbers do not think alike when it comes to what is valued in product choices, and which products affects the ones that line our pockets everyday.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

It amazes me to no end the number of small contractors in any trade that continue to use home centers as their main source of material, knowing full well that they are doing little more than funding their own competition. I also know that the common excuse for small shops is that they get better pricing from them, but I have to ask, what difference does it make? The customer is ultimately paying for the material, and they have no clue what you paid for it, so you are helping out a business that is looking to steal your customers for what? Perhaps 5 dollars in profit?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I can't understand if you are for this move by some, or against it.


I "try" to spend money at these local mom&pop hardware stores but their pricing is through the roof, and they justify it because the big box store is right down the road, and they justify the higher charge to keep in business.

Like a sympathy rule that we accept if we buy there. 

The problem lies with them that they just don't have the inventory that offers "everything" that you like to have when you are making multiple purchases, getting it all in one place.


Explain what you mean in your statement.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

You don't have a wholesaler near by or access to a company like Barnett Brass that serves the trade?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> You don't have a wholesaler near by or access to a company like Barnett Brass that serves the trade?


 

Yes. I buy from Barnett's, I bought from both a specialty plumbing supply today, along with a regular plumbing supply. 

But in a quick move I also bought at Ace Hardware today as well. 2 supply houses in total, one local hardware store.

I'm loyal to no one in particular because I buy on the fly. :thumbup: I'm already losing money being a smiling face in a supply house/hardware store to begin with, today was unusual to frequent 3 in one day.


The Ace Hardware pumps my tax dollars back into my community, the other two did not...Barnett's serves Florida's entirely.

Takes 20 minutes to get to either of those supply houses, barnett's is 24 hour shipping/next day and Ace hardware is 5 minutes if I blow through 2 stop signs and one red light.


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## Plumbergeek (Aug 16, 2010)

I am guilty of purchasing from the big box stores but only due to necessity. We have 2 plumbing supply houses in my town that carry next to nothing for the service plumbers, besides the quality of their materials is lacking (i.e. china) They also will sell directly to the homeowner for the SAME price they sell to me! I hardly ever sell a Kitchen/Lav faucet because the customer wants to go pick one out themselves, which I install with NO Warranty..... If I do sell one with my small mark-up I guarantee I will be explaining my price to the husband that night because he saw the same on at Lowes/HD for a lot less!
Now here is the killer in all this, our local RE Michel sells HVAC equipment/parts and will never sell to homeowners or me as I am not HVAC licensed, but they will sell water heaters to the HVAC guys all day long:furious:
In Georgia only LMP can install water heater, don't know about yalls code.
Frustrated in Georgia


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Man, this thread is so old it must be past the statute of limitations :laughing:


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## Plumbergeek (Aug 16, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Man, this thread is so old it must be past the statute of limitations :laughing:


LOL, just noticed that! Well, it's still relevant so start it back up:thumbup:


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

It's really a chicken or egg type thing. When you give people a number of 700-1000 to repipe water distribution in pex or, 1700-2300 in copper it is easier to justify the pex. People as why it is so much more expensive but the pipe is 2-3 times the cost and it takes longer to install. I agree that copper is a better product but, people don't want to spend that kind of money. I need every job I can get, and I can't afford to justify an extra 500+ dollars to run a vent from a basement through the roof not to mention drywall repairs and such. 

It is much better to throw an AAV in and get the job. There are still people that will take copper over PEX and the vent run over an AAV they recognize quality, but this day in age, those people are few and far between.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Herk said:


> Everybody knows that plumbers are too expensive.


Feelings are no different today than they were in the 1880's


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

RW Plumbing said:


> It's really a chicken or egg type thing. When you give people a number of 700-1000 to repipe water distribution in pex or, 1700-2300 in copper it is easier to justify the pex. People as why it is so much more expensive but the pipe is 2-3 times the cost and it takes longer to install. I agree that copper is a better product but, people don't want to spend that kind of money. I need every job I can get, and I can't afford to justify an extra 500+ dollars to run a vent from a basement through the roof not to mention drywall repairs and such.
> 
> It is much better to throw an AAV in and get the job. There are still people that will take copper over PEX and the vent run over an AAV they recognize quality, but this day in age, those people are few and far between.


 
So you are only in plumbing for the money then?

Willing to justify and install inferior and frankly crappy materials?

Now I'm back to being an old grouch again :thumbsup:


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

RW Plumbing said:


> It's really a chicken or egg type thing. When you give people a number of 700-1000 to repipe water distribution in pex or, 1700-2300 in copper it is easier to justify the pex. People as why it is so much more expensive but the pipe is 2-3 times the cost and it takes longer to install. I agree that copper is a better product but, people don't want to spend that kind of money. I need every job I can get, and I can't afford to justify an extra 500+ dollars to run a vent from a basement through the roof not to mention drywall repairs and such.
> 
> It is much better to throw an AAV in and get the job. There are still people that will take copper over PEX and the vent run over an AAV they recognize quality, but this day in age, those people are few and far between.


 
:whistling2::whistling2:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I'll use an aav...pex....a sharkbite. I'm not turning down a job because a guy wants an AAV instead of me slicing his house apart.

Make no mistake about it.....I'm all about the money.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Whats better for everyone? ..not just the plumber...because this question gets avoided makes the 1st premise harder to see.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

I'm glad this thread got resurrected because I'd like to address some of the points made.

About the ph of water in Idaho - our water is obviously not that bad. I have seen an occasional well that produces serious problems in a relatively short time, but overall, copper holds up pretty well here. I didn't say that all copper is getting pinholes, I said I've seen it happen for unknown reasons. For many years, I plumbed houses in copper with no problems at all - and so far as I know, they still don't have any problems, even after the 35 years I've been in business. 

Yes, price is a serious consideration. No, I don't charge 4 times as much for a PEX repair, I charge 4 times as much for a repair in copper, even though I still have to use a couple of sweat fittings on the ends of the PEX. But putting in a bid for copper plumbing when PEX is working just fine in new homes seems a bit odd to me. Wanting the job to take longer so you can be paid for more hours is not what I consider honest work. And as to galvanized pipe, you might have a hard time finding faucets these days that don't have some problems with the rust. I really hate galvanized pipe and the damage it does. 

And Steve, water expands 9% when it freezes, not 100 to 1000 times. However, a copper pipe is likely to freeze and thaw about three times before it actually bursts, with the burst section stretching a little bit with each freeze. 

An AAV is great when the customer cannot afford the repair at all and the roof is 20 years past needing replaced and the area from the fixture to the roof is impossible to get through without major demolition. Idaho, at least my side of it, is a very poor state with little industry and there are lots of rich folks somewhere but not here. Social Security doesn't take rising plumbing costs into consideration. If you folks knew how many unvented kitchen sinks and other fixtures I see here, you'd be amazed. Back in the 'good old daze' anyone who could get their hands on a set of threaders was a plumber. I've seen houses plumbed more recently with galvanized water lines because the brothers didn't know how to solder.

As I've said, I'd love to see an enforced code, but there are not enough inspectors nor a harsh enough law here to get it done. I often run into newer houses that were plumbed in the countryside with no inspections or permits. I've also seen flipped houses that are obviously not inspected. There are lots of handymen and remodelers and the sky's the limit. 

And, yet another peeve, ever since "modular homes" are sold as "you bought a house!" and yet have no serious code requirements, it's difficult to understand why the house next door does have them. The Cheaping Down of America is a sad thing to watch, but it's also a sign of the times. Driving around my fair city, I see old buildings that were pretty impressive in their time, if buildings under three stories can be impressive, and yet, that kind of construction hasn't happened here for nearly a hundred years. For some reason, those things could be built then, but now it's just cheap junk by comparison. 

I don't have a lot of hope for our industry. A low-wage, nearly slave nation doesn't have room for real professionals. Free markets and cheap labor is the watchword of the day. 

Today, I gave a price on a "budget" toilet replacement. "My husband and I will do it ourselves," said the lady, who probably lives off the rentals rather than putting any of it back into the property. "He's already done it three or four times at our house."


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> So you are only in plumbing for the money then?
> 
> Willing to justify and install inferior and frankly crappy materials?
> 
> Now I'm back to being an old grouch again :thumbsup:


No, I'm in plumbing for the prestige and satisfaction of a job well done.:laughing: Of course I'm in in for the money. I explain the options to the customer that an AAV can fail and the such, and let THEM decide. After all it is their house, and they are the ones paying the bills. Every thing we install has a plus and a minus side. 

It is YOUR opinion that AAV's are crap and that you don't like PEX. It really depends on who you talk to. For me they are handy for someone adding fixtures in a basement or something where a vent is unavailable.

Plumbing is just a job man. The second plumbing no longer provides income for myself and my family, I will move onto something else.


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

22rifle said:


> The ones in a mobile home are cheap crap and are a completely different animal than the Studor vents, etc.


Here the type used in a trailer are against code, but the Studor vent is acceptable


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

so you are letting the customer decide what is better? Aren't you the guy with the license and the knowledge? What the hell does a cutomer know? If you give a customer the choice between cheap and expensive what do you suppose they will choose...................every time.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

I agree 100% that AAV's are cheapening our trade, due to excessive use. I do all repair & remodel plumbing, & I don't care what anyone says, but in my experiences of over 30yrs, it simply aint practical, in half the circumstances, to run an atmospheric vent to outside, unless you only work in ranch style houses.

And even then, if your adding a basement bathroom, it aint no picnic fishing a revent through a wall, & customers simply are not gonna tear up places they don't plan on remodeling, or just got done remodeling, to run a vent. And don't tell me about running through a closet either, I think that is hack plbg too.

In a perfect world, where every customer had unlimited budgets, & wanted everything done 1st class, I'm all for running a vent to outside, no matter what it takes. I agree an atmospheric vent is 10000000000 times better than an AAV. But this aint a perfect world.

Atleast an AAV allows me to do my work, up to current code, at a reasonable cost, & I'm not limited to placement of fixtures. I believe most of the air movement is along the top of drain pipes anyway, & like alot of you showed in other threads, the drains will work with no vent.

Every job I have installed an AAV in, had atleast 1 or more VTR, so I don't think its a big deal, or cheapens the plumbing system. And if they go bad, unscrew it, & install a new one. But I've only seen 2 or 3 go bad, in the last 10yrs or so.

Now I'm talkin remodel here. If your building new, or have "reasonable" access to outside, then I will always run VTR. I think in those circumstances VTR should be required. Hard to enforce though.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> so you are letting the customer decide what is better? Aren't you the guy with the license and the knowledge? What the hell does a cutomer know? If you give a customer the choice between cheap and expensive what do you suppose they will choose...................every time.


No I dont let the customer decide whats better. I explain the differences and let them decide what they want to pay for. It all looks good from my house.
Not all customers pick the cheap way,however most do. So what.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Im gonna ask this again because nobody has ever given me an answer.

What did you do before when AAV's were not legal. Did you tell the customer the job could not be done and walk away?

Customers would not even know what the hell an AAV was unless some plumber told them. If we all had refused to use the damn things way back in the first place the market for them would have died and that would have been the end of it but hell no..... somebody(s) had to get greedy and underbid the other guy and the only way he could do it was to use crap and crap spreads and here we are today. so instead of billing jobs for several hundreds or thousands of dollars and pocketing the profit, now we can do them for peanuts and pocket ****. Thanks guys, appreciate it.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Im gonna ask this again because nobody has ever given me an answer.
> 
> What did you do before when AAV's were not legal. Did you tell the customer the job could not be done and walk away?
> 
> Customers would not even know what the hell an AAV was unless some plumber told them. If we all had refused to use the damn things way back in the first place the market for them would have died and that would have been the end of it but hell no..... somebody(s) had to get greedy and underbid the other guy and the only way he could do it was to use crap and crap spreads and here we are today. so instead of billing jobs for several hundreds or thousands of dollars and pocketing the profit, now we can do them for peanuts and pocket ****. Thanks guys, appreciate it.


 Agree 100%. PVC & copper did the same thing. The plumber used to get weeks to rough in a house or bldg, with galv, & cast iron piping. Now you gotta do it in 1 or 2 days. Even then the DWV plastic wasn't cheap enough, so they had to make SCH.30. What's next SCH. 20? Economics, trumps all decision making in this worlds economy.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Im gonna ask this again because nobody has ever given me an answer.
> 
> What did you do before when AAV's were not legal. Did you tell the customer the job could not be done and walk away?
> 
> Customers would not even know what the hell an AAV was unless some plumber told them. If we all had refused to use the damn things way back in the first place the market for them would have died and that would have been the end of it but hell no..... somebody(s) had to get greedy and underbid the other guy and the only way he could do it was to use crap and crap spreads and here we are today. so instead of billing jobs for several hundreds or thousands of dollars and pocketing the profit, now we can do them for peanuts and pocket ****. Thanks guys, appreciate it.


Upsize the pipe and make it a combination waste and vent. Simple.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Don The Plumber said:


> Agree 100%. PVC & copper did the same thing. The plumber used to get weeks to rough in a house or bldg, with galv, & cast iron piping. Now you gotta do it in 1 or 2 days. Even then the DWV plastic wasn't cheap enough, so they had to make SCH.30. What's next SCH. 20? Economics, trumps all decision making in this worlds economy.


When I went in business in 1969 The sale of materials paid all the overhead and made profit. The plumber then did not have to be a businessman. Today with a lot cheaper materials, plus everybody else selling you had better be a businessman and a damned good one at that. 
Basically all you are selling today is labor. So labor cost, labor burden, overhead and profit has to be where? 
ON YOUR LABOR !!! Granted you are selling PVC/ABS Pex, in some cases a bit of copper. CPVC, CSST. The sell price of those items does not generate a lot of gross sales whereas O/H and profit can be extracted. Certainy not enough to pay like the old products did.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Upsize the pipe and make it a combination waste and vent. Simple.


 
Yes, yes yes yes :thumbsup:

Proven plumbing with no moving parts to fail.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Pandora's Box has already been opened. There is no going back.

If you want to compete and survive, you need to play by a new set of rules.

Look on the bright side, all this substandard plumbing work will keep us service plumbing companies in business for a long time. :yes: 

No more 20 year water heaters . . . the average is close to 8 years now. In a few more years, I bet the manufacturers will have it perfected that water heaters will rupture within weeks of the 6 warranty period ending.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

NHMaster said:


> What did you do before when AAV's were not legal.


I've done a lot of different things, knowing that someone else would just put in a drain without any vent at all. I used them before they were legal. In some cases, I ran out the side of the building, offset to get the pipe alongside the fascia and strapped to that. Ugly, but legal. The kind of thing I'm talking about here is putting a washing machine hookup on a back porch, for example, when people get too old to go into the basement or when the house was never plumbed for a washer. I'm happy to say that I've lost a lot of jobs because I refused to put in something 'to get by' because that's what the customer wanted.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Pandora's Box has already been opened. There is no going back.
> 
> If you want to compete and survive, you need to play by a new set of rules.
> 
> ...


 
Who's making the rules? Is it you or the manufacturer or worse yet, the homeowner


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Who's making the rules? Is it you or the manufacturer or worse yet, the homeowner


I say none of the above, economics has caused the shift. It all started when the U.S. started to allow cheap imports and cos. to ship jobs overseas IMHO. Everyone sat back and thought 'this is good.' We are just starting to reap what we have sown. Everyone looks out for themselves instead of what's good for our country, industry etc. Plain and simple, we sold out. 

Plumbers are the most cut throat group of tradesman by far. 

Bottom line - GREED and ignorance created this mess.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Who's making the rules? Is it you or the manufacturer or worse yet, the homeowner


I think aav's are great because when I sell one I make 20 bucks. If I could sell one to everyone I would be happy...so happy I would install them in my house.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I think aav's are great because when I sell one I make 20 bucks. If I could sell one to everyone I would be happy...so happy I would install them in my house.


 
20 BUCKS In 1938 that was a lot of money. $20.00 back then could have easily been 2-3 days work. In Allentown there was a plumber called to my uncles house one evening for a blockled Vogel toilet on the back porch. Old Ramey took a look promptly rolled up his shirt sleeve, reached in and grabbed the neck of a coke bottle wrapped in toilet paper. During the process my uncle remarked "I wouldn't do that job for 20 bucks". Old Ramey dried off his arm pulled down his sleeve. Uncle Bert said "What do I owe ya? Ramey said 20 bucks.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

This is nothing new.IN the 80’s and 90’s I did 200 homes a year in Ohio. Where each fixture had a separate vent, cpvc and aav’s were not code. I did work for 12 builders. The homes I did all were bid with cast iron tubs, 3/4 hp disposals, china lavatories Kohler Wellworth water closets,type L copper, and ABS drains, Kohler faucets. I bid against plumbers installing steel tubs, steel lavatories, Sayco /Elger washerless faucets, type M the only thing that was similar is the ABS drainage .

When the builder would come to me and ask for a break I would ask what are you willing to give up. For me to give up money I will need to give up quality and service .Pick something and we will change it. Back then I was bullheaded more than I am now. I learned that times are a changing and I must change with the times.

Friday I had a client that handed me an advertisement from Walmart for a toilet under 100 dollars. Years ago I would have laughed at the client and walked away shaking my head swearing how stupid the client is. Friday I took the advertisement and asked where their trash can was located and threw it away and said now let us sit down and talk serious about improving the quality of your fixtures. The toilets in the home were 1994 Briggs 1.6 with the small trap all scaled up and a handy plunger sitting beside each toilet. Both the husband and wife on medication and creating large bowel movements now they have 2 Toto Drakes.

Point is we will always be dealing with competition that will never see that they are worth more than they charge and we will always have people that want to save money where he or she thinks they can. My parents lived through the depression and they never thought they had enough money to live. They were not cheap due to their experiences. Most plumbers think people are cheap. Why is the client cheap? We the plumber allowed them to be cheap because it is not our job to discover the why.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> No I dont let the customer decide whats better. I explain the differences and let them decide what they want to pay for. It all looks good from my house.
> Not all customers pick the cheap way,however most do. So what.


 This is exactly what I do, and how I feel about it. I make sure the customer understands the difference and only do things to code. I don't just rig stuff in there or cut corners but most customers want things done to the lowest cost. I honestly don't care. I remodeled my house, and put an AAV in for my kitchen sink waste. I didn't feel like tearing my second story apart to revent my kitchen sink. To each his own on this matter.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> 20 BUCKS In 1938 that was a lot of money. $20.00 back then could have easily been 2-3 days work. In Allentown there was a plumber called to my uncles house one evening for a blockled Vogel toilet on the back porch. Old Ramey took a look promptly rolled up his shirt sleeve, reached in and grabbed the neck of a coke bottle wrapped in toilet paper. During the process my uncle remarked "I wouldn't do that job for 20 bucks". Old Ramey dried off his arm pulled down his sleeve. Uncle Bert said "What do I owe ya? Ramey said 20 bucks.


:lol: :laughing: :lol:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

The last thing I ever want is to have the reputation of being the cheapest plumbing company in town. When you have tht reputation you get all the shoppers, and deadbeats.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> The last thing I ever want is to have the reputation of being the cheapest plumbing company in town. When you have tht reputation you get all the shoppers, and deadbeats.


Who cares if people think your the cheapest as long as you hit your profit goal. Walmarts cheaper than Target on most stuff....think walmart cares?:laughing: Come on man get off the high horse.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Who cares? I care. You can either run your ass off doing el-cheapo jobs all week long for people that argue about your price or worse never pay you or you can do a few profitable jobs a week for people that don't question the bill and do pay you. Been where you are and never ever will go back. I want my client base to be upscale professionals not toothless trailer scum.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Sometimes the "upscale professionals" are the worst. 

Like the arsehole attorney I worked for. The last draw invoice, he just didn't feel like paying it. Proly threw it in the trash. . I was doing HVAC, another guy was the plumber. He got screwed, as well. 

Oh well, at least I ain't gotta warranty the job. How can you warranty a job you werent paid for.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Who cares? I care. You can either run your ass off doing el-cheapo jobs all week long for people that argue about your price or worse never pay you or you can do a few profitable jobs a week for people that don't question the bill and do pay you. Been where you are and never ever will go back. I want my client base to be upscale professionals not toothless trailer scum.


You assume people who dont have alot of money are crooks.....I propose that some of the people with money have money because they ARE crooks.

Alot of lower income families pay cash. I work for everyone that can pass my prescreening on the telephone.

Basically your profiling based off what you think they have...big mistake.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Not really, I have the balance sheets for 30 years to prove it. Sure, you get the occasional ******* lawyer but on the whole business is much better catering to a higher end demographic.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Not really, I have the balance sheets for 30 years to prove it. Sure, you get the occasional ******* lawyer but on the whole business is much better catering to a higher end demographic.


The higher end demographic can be a pain in the azz to work for. They can be inconsiderate stuck up mofos that will pick a perfect job to death more than the guys here on the plumbingzone will. I had a super rich mofo price shop me and say the local gas provider was 20.00 cheaper.......He lives in a 10 million $ home........but that doesn't mean he has any money left does it.

I've never had sombody tell me there not paying me....I've had them avoid me but never tell me they were not paying face to face. I wouldn't dare call a man out from a small business to do work at my home and then tell him I wasn't gonna pay him...knowing the man knows 3/4 of the city. I like to sleep at night.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I understand just what your saying and in a totally perfect world it would be great to only work for people who gave you a blank check but thats just not the case. I cant run my repair plumbing business that way. I work for families and extended families. Just because a guy has money doesn't mean his brother does...but his brother may need work done. If I dont treat the brother of the rich guy right I will lose his everyones business connected to that family eventually. I try to treat people the same no matter if they are rich or poor if they are good honest people and needing my services. I work for maids of rich people....if I dont treat the maid right I would probably lose all the business connected with the maid. 

Let me ask you a few questions.

How do you determine the person is rich or poor?
How you determine if you want to work for the person?
What do you say when you refuse the work when they dont pass your test of determining if they are a worthy customer?


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

We find the best customers are the hardworking middle class. The wealthy can be a royal PITA with trying to beat you down in price. Sometimes I think that is how they became wealthy . . . preying on hardworking, desperate people.

The poor always cry about not having money, their bad luck, can we wait til they get their 'check', can you do a temporary repair, can you install this old toilet my neighbor got rid of . . . yadda yadda.

Then there's the ones in the middle. "How much do I owe you? Thanks a lot for showing up on time and taking care of this. Here's an extra $20.00 for you.":thumbup:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Let me ask you a few questions.

How do you determine the person is rich or poor?
How you determine if you want to work for the person?
What do you say when you refuse the work when they dont pass your test of determining if they are a worthy customer?[/QUOTE]


I'll keep the answer simple and open a familiar wound.

Flat rate pricing
Get a credit card number before the work starts.

When you decide to compete with all the other station wagon plumbers and unlicensed handymen you jump into a pretty big pond full of pretty little fish. It does take time and work to be the most expensive plumbing company in town but the rewards are well worth the effort.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Just because you aren't the most expensive doesn't mean you drive a station wagon. You guys who claim to be the most expensive(flat-rate) are the very ones that turn the trade into a mexican bid off...cutting your rates and profiling customers based off what you think you can get. Especially when things get slow and they do get slow for everyone at times. I had 'the most expensive" company in town under bid me and lay a 100' sewer for around 2400.00 that I bid 3600.00. I saw the bid..I told the customer that i cant beat that,let them do it. It took 3 of them 2 days with a backhoe plus pipe and inspection fees.

hey buts thats ok because that same company will go out to some old ladys house and charge her 2,000 to repalce a water heater and then go around town like you are saying how much money they make and how good of a business man they are and they are the most expensive plumbers in town because they are the best. In other words they make up for the loss on the sewer job. Sounds familiar to me.

They price the job based on their current work load or lack of.......making it up here and there by taking advantage of people because when they get slow and drop those rates...but in their eyes its just smart business.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

TM, not going to argue with you here. All I wil say is that we have 13 technicians, 8 vans, looking for a new apprentice. We are never slow, ever. We never underbid anyone either. Why would I want to cut the margin I need to be profitable?

Diversity in your company is the key to staying busy, not cutting your prices. Essentially what you are doing is letting your competition determine* your* margin regardless or your costs. If you want to get out of that rat race, you need to re-think your business model and perhaps seek business education otherwise you will spend the next 20 years circling the drain. 

And, I'm not insulting you at all. I see a lot of guys operating the same business model that you are. I, ran the same business model myself so I know what that's like. I also know that we plumbers are stubborn and for every point I can make you are still set in a position to where you are looking for reasons why not rather than maybe I can. It's a lot like that same mentality that causes us to read the code book looking for what can not be done rather than what can. I wish you the best of luck and maybe your company will be the exception to the rule, but next time you are at the supply house look around as note how many guys there that are running the same operation that you are.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> TM, not going to argue with you here. All I wil say is that we have 13 technicians, 8 vans, looking for a new apprentice. We are never slow, ever. We never underbid anyone either. Why would I want to cut the margin I need to be profitable?
> 
> Diversity in your company is the key to staying busy, not cutting your prices. Essentially what you are doing is letting your competition determine* your* margin regardless or your costs. If you want to get out of that rat race, you need to re-think your business model and perhaps seek business education otherwise you will spend the next 20 years circling the drain.
> 
> And, I'm not insulting you at all. I see a lot of guys operating the same business model that you are. I, ran the same business model myself so I know what that's like. I also know that we plumbers are stubborn and for every point I can make you are still set in a position to where you are looking for reasons why not rather than maybe I can. It's a lot like that same mentality that causes us to read the code book looking for what can not be done rather than what can. I wish you the best of luck and maybe your company will be the exception to the rule, but next time you are at the supply house look around as note how many guys there that are running the same operation that you are.


I make 90 an hour......my material sales pay for my business to operate. can ya beat that? I will come work for you for 90 an hour.....how many of your guys do you pay that?

Kinda makes all that crap you took the time to type pointless doesn't it? Flat rates not the only way to make money...sorry you drank the kool-aid.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

In the land of the blind the one eyed man will be king:thumbsup:

Your response is exactly what I expected to be and that's fine.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> In the land of the blind the one eyed man will be king:thumbsup:
> 
> Your response is exactly what I expected to be and that's fine.


You say you have access to 30 years of business records.....I had access to 8 master plumbers and business in 3 states with a total of about 240 years of business experience between them all.... as mentors/family memebers from the time I was born. Some of those men are still alive and they are by no means broke and in the gutter. I have running a one man plumbing business down to an exact science and its based on investment based on return.....and I'm killing it.

your above post is exactly what i expected...avoid avoid avoid. Flatrate doesn't impress me. I dont hafta use it and I make a huge profit....because I'm one of the best at what i do.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

If it's working for you, if you are able to invest, re-invest, plan and save for the future; if you are increasing the market value of your business then by all means keep on keeping on. BTW is that 90 bucks an hour gross or net? Is that 90 bucks an hour enough to grow your margin at a reasonable rate over the years? I onkly ask because 90 bucks an hour gross would not even begin to cover our expenses and growth.

What will your business be worth in real dollars when you decide to retire? What are your business assets worth? Do you have a building or do you work out of your house? Land owned by the business or other tangable assets. Tools and trucks ain't worth Jack, they depreciate fast. Finally, you are killing it which I assume means that you can pay your mortgage and bills but where is the business going? want to stay a one man shop forever? One man shops are fine and all but that pond is full of guys just like you all hunting for that same fish. 

You sound awful defensive for a guy that has it all figured out.

Growing a business is the difference between working for a goal and working for a living


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> What will your business be worth in real dollars when you decide to retire? What are your business assets worth? Do you have a building or do you work out of your house? Land owned by the business or other tangable assets. Tools and trucks ain't worth Jack, they depreciate fast. Finally, you are killing it which I assume means that you can pay your mortgage and bills but where is the business going? want to stay a one man shop forever? One man shops are fine and all but that pond is full of guys just like you all hunting for that same fish.
> 
> You sound awful defensive for a guy that has it all figured out.


Red herring question NHMaster. You know very well the answer to your first question. His business will be worth next to nothing. TM has stated over and over, his customers trust HIM! Long time customers he inherited from his family's plumbing business. NO ONE is going to buy a company like that . . . the owner changes and the customers disappear. The other important thing to mention is that all his eggs are in one basket, he gets hurt . . . bye bye income, bye bye business. As he ages, he will slow down, it's inevitable. When he slows, so will his income.

TM is making a good living and probably putting money away to fund his own retirement - he is missing out on the back side of having something worth selling in the end. Once he gets married and if babies come, he will see his six figures don't go quite as far.

$90/hr. sounds good, until you find out you could have been making $180.00. Just sayin'


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> If it's working for you, if you are able to invest, re-invest, plan and save for the future; if you are increasing the market value of your business then by all means keep on keeping on. BTW is that 90 bucks an hour gross or net? Is that 90 bucks an hour enough to grow your margin at a reasonable rate over the years? I onkly ask because 90 bucks an hour gross would not even begin to cover our expenses and growth.
> 
> What will your business be worth in real dollars when you decide to retire? What are your business assets worth? Do you have a building or do you work out of your house? Land owned by the business or other tangable assets. Tools and trucks ain't worth Jack, they depreciate fast. Finally, you are killing it which I assume means that you can pay your mortgage and bills but where is the business going? want to stay a one man shop forever? One man shops are fine and all but that pond is full of guys just like you all hunting for that same fish.
> 
> ...


 



PlumbCrazy said:


> Red herring question NHMaster. You know very well the answer to your first question. His business will be worth next to nothing. TM has stated over and over, his customers trust HIM! Long time customers he inherited from his family's plumbing business. NO ONE is going to buy a company like that . . . the owner changes and the customers disappear. The other important thing to mention is that all his eggs are in one basket, he gets hurt . . . bye bye income, bye bye business. As he ages, he will slow down, it's inevitable. When he slows, so will his income.
> 
> TM is making a good living and probably putting money away to fund his own retirement - he is missing out on the back side of having something worth selling in the end. Once he gets married and if babies come, he will see his six figures don't go quite as far.
> 
> $90/hr. sounds good, until you find out you could have been making $180.00. Just sayin'


I'ma start a thread in the business lounge and we will start laying down some numbers. You two people are about to learn somthing.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I'ma start a thread in the business lounge and we will start laying down some numbers. You two people are about to learn somthing.


Look forward to it.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I look forward to the chance to learn anything new so I will reserve judgment.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Im gonna ask this again because nobody has ever given me an answer.
> 
> What did you do before when AAV's were not legal. Did you tell the customer the job could not be done and walk away?


 
We do walk away from jobs when we are unable to get a vent thru the roof, but we will not lie to the client and tell them it can't be done. We tell then we refuse to install AAV's and tell them why.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Associated Plum said:


> We do walk away from jobs when we are unable to get a vent thru the roof, but we will not lie to the client and tell them it can't be done. We tell then we refuse to install AAV's and tell them why.


Ok act like I'm the customer and explain to me why you will not install an aav for my job but 5 other plumbers will and the inspectors tell me its legal. Your standing in my livingroom....you have the floor.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Ok act like I'm the customer and explain to me why you will not install an aav for my job but 5 other plumbers will and the inspectors tell me its legal. Your standing in my livingroom....you have the floor.


Yes Ma'am, they are legal and they do meet *minimum* code, but the experinece we have had with the ones we saw installed were that they would close up and not allow enough air into the system and cause an airlock which in turn the water closet would not flush or would allow sewer gas back into the house.

We choose not to install them since we do have to warranty the system and we don't want any hard feelings if something should happen in the future.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Associated Plum said:


> Yes Ma'am, they are legal and they do meet *minimum* code, but the experinece we have had with the ones we saw installed were that they would close up and not allow enough air into the system and cause an airlock which in turn the water closet would not flush or would allow sewer gas back into the house.
> 
> We choose not to install them since we do have to warranty the system and we don't want any hard feelings if something should happen in the future.


Your doing nothing but turning work away. Its called cutting off your nose to spite your face. Theres no liability in those things but you act like they are killing people:laughing: But hey its your choice:thumbsup:

How many have you removed and then ran the vent out the roof?:laughing:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Betcha more than 1/2 the time I can convince the customer to do it the right way:thumbsup:

The other 1/2 well, it's my company and my reputation and I didn't get my reputation by doing a 1/2 assed job just for the money, but naturally with that attitude I don't always make the buck, but I do build my reputation and over the years my reputation builds the business to the point where now all the time I can turn down whatever I want.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Your doing nothing but turning work away. Its called cutting off your nose to spite your face. Theres no liability in those things but you act like they are killing people:laughing: But hey its your choice:thumbsup:
> 
> How many have you removed and then ran the vent out the roof?:laughing:


Your right it is our choice, just like it is your choice to install them.

I mentioned that drains may not operate properly or you might get an odor in the building. How did you come up with they are killing people from that?

All that were having problems and a few that weren't. If they are existing and working we leave them if the client desires, but if we are there to install a new drain and vent the vent will be installed and terminated above the roof or connected to an existing vent.

That is the great thing about this country we have a choice (at least for now) If you want to perform work to minimum codes that is your right.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Associated Plum said:


> Your right it is our choice, just like it is your choice to install them.
> 
> I mentioned that drains may not operate properly or you might get an odor in the building. How did you come up with they are killing people from that?
> 
> ...


I'm surprised if you find them working that you leave them. Seems like you would either make the owner correct it or not work for them. What if sombody sees your trucks their or a sticker on the water heater and assumes you installed it. That could look bad. I'd just avoid the whole house and the people too. See how crazy that sounds. Thats about what your saying sounds like to me.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I only put in type K copper water lines with brazed joints. I pressure test to 250lbs with nitrogen. I use all clean and degreased pipe and fittings and my pipe is up to medical gas cleanliness standards. I would hate to look stupid when regular copper leaks or isn't clean enough. But if you want to do work to minimum standards, thats up to you.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I'm surprised if you find them working that you leave them. Seems like you would either make the owner correct it or not work for them. What if sombody sees your trucks their or a sticker on the water heater and assumes you installed it. That could look bad. I'd just avoid the whole house and the people too. See how crazy that sounds. Thats about what your saying sounds like to me.


 
I thought this was about installing AAV and not existing ones?

We can't make someone remove it, but we don't have to install them. People can ass-u-me all they want, it just doesn't make it so.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Man, this has gotta get the award for longest thread ressurected from the dead :laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Associated Plum said:


> I thought this was about installing AAV and not existing ones?
> 
> We can't make someone remove it, but we don't have to install them. People can ass-u-me all they want, it just doesn't make it so.


Yes it is about AAV's period at this point. Installing them or leaving them when you find them and "working around" it. Whatever.

You say people can assume all they want but that doesn't make it so......but they are the ones that are going to be talking about you and 9 out of 10 people would agree that if it meant calling a roofer,a drywall repair man,painter,trim carpenter out to repair the damage you caused installing a vent to outside or having a code approved option of putting an aav for a lavatory thats a little to far from the vent. Goodluck but your not accomplishing anything by not installing an aav's in the proper situation but pissing off people if they know the product is available and are asking you to use it.

Not that I buy your story anyway that you wouldn't install it. before i wouldn't install it I would install it and figure on replacing it every 5 years for the next 30 years and add it on everyones bill. Your forgetting there are somtimes more costs involved other that what you charge....what about the repairs when needed...do you realize that can cost thousands?


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Yes it is about AAV's period at this point. Installing them or leaving them when you find them and "working around" it. Whatever.
> 
> You say people can assume all they want but that doesn't make it so......but they are the ones that are going to be talking about you and 9 out of 10 people would agree that if it meant calling a roofer,a drywall repair man,painter,trim carpenter out to repair the damage you caused installing a vent to outside or having a code approved option of putting an aav for a lavatory thats a little to far from the vent. Goodluck but your not accomplishing anything by not installing an aav's in the proper situation but pissing off people if they know the product is available and are asking you to use it.
> 
> Not that I buy your story anyway that you wouldn't install it. before i wouldn't install it I would install it and figure on replacing it every 5 years for the next 30 years and add it on everyones bill. Your forgetting there are somtimes more costs involved other that what you charge....what about the repairs when needed...do you realize that can cost thousands?


So it is OK to install a product that you know is going to fail, and justify it by citing it is code approved? UPC code is a joke, and most of us know that, but it's all good because it creates service calls when the product fails?

I would get a thorough laugh if you ever attempted to work where the codes aren't written to the manufacturers specs and you couldn't use lick it and stick it pipe and fittings.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I can give you the name and phone number of a journeyman I fired about a year ago for installing one. And sorry but just because its f'ing code approved don't make it good plumbing. I think I posted a few threads a week or so ago that prove that. So you wanna be the guy that meets the minimum, be the minimum guy. I said it before and I'll say it again. You guys don't effect my business at all. Not one single dime. And I will gladly recommend guys like you to customers that are only interested in meeting minimum standards and paying minimum dollars. Just because one guy pisses in the lake don't mean we all have too.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Killertoiletspider said:


> So it is OK to install a product that you know is going to fail, and justify it by citing it is code approved? UPC code is a joke, and most of us know that, but it's all good because it creates service calls when the product fails?
> 
> I would get a thorough laugh if you ever attempted to work where the codes aren't written to the manufacturers specs and you couldn't use lick it and stick it pipe and fittings.


Yes its ok to install a product thats code approved if I know it will fail. Ever install a water heater? Then you have installed a product that will fail. I could give countless other examples.

Do the codes that you would get a thorough laugh at me trying to work under have minimum standards? Sure they do:laughing: and I would meet that minimum or exceed it depending on the situation....thats why they were written..... correct?:whistling2: 

Got anything else?

ADD> There are people who read the code(like you) and there are people who one day write the code(like me). In the mean time I'm banking money while others complain about the code and the people who follow it. Its nice to be the Alpha.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> ...just because its * code approved don't make it good plumbing....


So true NHM. There are instances where the code and the ditch do not agree. That is why despite the best efforts of the code council, the inspector always has the right to require something more strict.

Doing the bare minimum of the code can save money, save time, and make an otherwise difficult task easier. However, it is not always better. It can also serve as a crutch or excuse to not only plumb bare minimum, but to sell bare minimum. Neither of which is good for any business model. The latter of the 2 is sometimes the result of insecurity over one's skill level from a technical stand point or a sales/business stand point.

On the other hand, exceeding all minimum code standards doesn't necessarily improve the system either. For instance, I have been told by folks smarter than I that exceeding recommended fall for certain pipe sizes can result in water out running the waste.

It's OK to walk away from a job that requires you to lower a standard. Even if that standard is self imposed. Back to Grandpappy, _"Son, if one plumber could do all the work, there would only be one plumber."_


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Yes its ok to install a product thats code approved if I know it will fail. Ever install a water heater? Then you have installed a product that will fail. I could give countless other examples.
> 
> Do the codes that you would get a thorough laugh at me trying to work under have minimum standards? Sure they do:laughing: and I would meet that minimum or exceed it depending on the situation....thats why they were written..... correct?:whistling2:
> 
> ...


This entire post shows a total lack of understanding as to how code councils and code review boards conduct business. The members of these boards (and I have been one) are open to lobbying from manufacturers to accept materials that honest plumbers would never accept. This is why we have seen a steady stream of plastic crap enter the market in the past 20 years or so. It's all about the money now.
Since you are more interested in "banking money" than doing anything that might improve the trade then indeed, you may very well end up writing the code one day. Lucky us. You and guys with attitudes like you are one of the reasons why the trade is dying. 
No matter what license you hold, unless you are willing to give something of substance back to the trade you will never be anything more than just another guy installing faucets, little better than an unlicensed handyman.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> This entire post shows a total lack of understanding as to how code councils and code review boards conduct business. The members of these boards (and I have been one) are open to lobbying from manufacturers to accept materials that honest plumbers would never accept. This is why we have seen a steady stream of plastic crap enter the market in the past 20 years or so. It's all about the money now.
> Since you are more interested in "banking money" than doing anything that might improve the trade then indeed, you may very well end up writing the code one day. Lucky us. You and guys with attitudes like you are one of the reasons why the trade is dying.
> No matter what license you hold, unless you are willing to give something of substance back to the trade you will never be anything more than just another guy installing faucets, little better than an unlicensed handyman.


So what. I learned a long time ago the world revolves around money. What kinda car do you drive? Do you think they built it the best it could be built? Hell no they built it the best they can build it and still sell the mofo. Thats why you can buy a car for over a million and one for peanuts......there is a need for ALL of it. There are people who cannot afford 3 grand vs a studor...wtf dont you get about that?:laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Hey NHmaster...what kinda watch do you wear when you go out to dinner? Me personally wouldn't wear a POS Seiko or timex...or 99% of anything you find in the typical store. My Rolex dealer says if you cant afford a 10,000 dollar watch...your insignificant and a cheap azz. He says you hafta spend at least 4 or 5 thousand to get a descent watch. I bet you and the Rolex dealer would get along huh? You guys think alike. Me personally...I think a cheap mofo should be able to buy a watch if he wants and shouldn't hafta spend 4 or 5 grand.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

TM, the conversation is a waste of time. You don't get it and you probably never will. There are plumbers that I have great respect for because they are not willing to compromise for the quick buck. If all you care about is the cash why not sell dope or rob banks.

Contractors and homeowners ask for the cheapest product they can possibly get and if every one of us had stood our ground and refused to install that crap we wouldn't be where we are today. You have to do 4 to 6 calls a day now instead of one. So where did that get us? Twice the gas, twice the wear and tear on the equipment and 1/2 the billable hours, meanwhile the contractors are still forcing our margin lower and lower and all because a few greedy *******s are willing to under cut prices to make a quick buck. 

So, what you have in most towns is a bunch of little fish with their pickup trucks and zero overhead, underpricing a gobbling up all the crap work like a flock of ducks fighting over breadcrumbs. And on the other side are companies like mine that don't want or need the breadcrumbs. That don't have to lower quality and standards, that don't have to meet minimum standards because we have built a solid business that has a reputation for never cutting corners. With us you pay more and you get more. So you keep on "kickin it" and we will keep on building, growing and doing things the right way.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Hey NHmaster...what kinda watch do you wear when you go out to dinner? Me personally wouldn't wear a POS Seiko or timex...or 99% of anything you find in the typical store. My Rolex dealer says if you cant afford a 10,000 dollar watch...your insignificant and a cheap azz. He says you hafta spend at least 4 or 5 thousand to get a descent watch. I bet you and the Rolex dealer would get along huh? You guys think alike. Me personally...I think a cheap mofo should be able to buy a watch if he wants and shouldn't hafta spend 4 or 5 grand.


Though both will give you the correct time
The Rolex will appreciate in value the Timex will not. Personaly though, I prefer a Doxa.

Just for fun though think on this. Had you installed copper piping (supply and dwv) in your home 40 years ago the piping is now worth way way more than the cost to install it.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> TM, the conversation is a waste of time. You don't get it and you probably never will. There are plumbers that I have great respect for because they are not willing to compromise for the quick buck. If all you care about is the cash why not sell dope or rob banks.
> 
> Contractors and homeowners ask for the cheapest product they can possibly get and if every one of us had stood our ground and refused to install that crap we wouldn't be where we are today. You have to do 4 to 6 calls a day now instead of one. So where did that get us? Twice the gas, twice the wear and tear on the equipment and 1/2 the billable hours, meanwhile the contractors are still forcing our margin lower and lower and all because a few greedy *******s are willing to under cut prices to make a quick buck.
> 
> So, what you have in most towns is a bunch of little fish with their pickup trucks and zero overhead, underpricing a gobbling up all the crap work like a flock of ducks fighting over breadcrumbs. And on the other side are companies like mine that don't want or need the breadcrumbs. That don't have to lower quality and standards, that don't have to meet minimum standards because we have built a solid business that has a reputation for never cutting corners. With us you pay more and you get more. So you keep on "kickin it" and we will keep on building, growing and doing things the right way.


Your logic is defective and I've proved it. What your saying may make some all warm and fuzzy inside but we all know its horse poop:thumbsup: I dont plumb for fun.....if theres no green...the master is not seen.:laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Though both will give you the correct time
> The Rolex will appreciate in value the Timex will not. Personaly though, I prefer a Doxa.
> 
> Just for fun though think on this. Had you installed copper piping (supply and dwv) in your home 40 years ago the piping is now worth way way more than the cost to install it.


And my lav will drain with a studor just like your will with a vent. Thank you:thumbsup:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> And my lav will drain with a studor just like your will with a vent. Thank you:thumbsup:


I seem to remember something different that made no sense but oh well who cares how your plumbing doesn't work...:laughing:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

It's drain even better with an S Trap :laughing:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I just saw a ghost.

Nice to see ya around KTS :thumbup:



Killertoiletspider said:


> So it is OK to install a product that you know is going to fail, and justify it by citing it is code approved? UPC code is a joke, and most of us know that, but it's all good because it creates service calls when the product fails?
> 
> I would get a thorough laugh if you ever attempted to work where the codes aren't written to the manufacturers specs and you couldn't use lick it and stick it pipe and fittings.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Your logic is defective and I've proved it. What your saying may make some all warm and fuzzy inside but we all know its horse poop:thumbsup: I dont plumb for fun.....if theres no green...the master is not seen.:laughing:


Hate to bust your bubble but you have never proved anything.... pretty much ever :laughing:

Nope, you don't plumb for fun, you plumb for peanuts :laughing:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

In this day and age, watches are an obsolete thing of the past. Kinda like a beeper :laughing:



TheMaster said:


> Hey NHmaster...what kinda watch do you wear when you go out to dinner? Me personally wouldn't wear a POS Seiko or timex...or 99% of anything you find in the typical store. My Rolex dealer says if you cant afford a 10,000 dollar watch...your insignificant and a cheap azz. He says you hafta spend at least 4 or 5 thousand to get a descent watch. I bet you and the Rolex dealer would get along huh? You guys think alike. Me personally...I think a cheap mofo should be able to buy a watch if he wants and shouldn't hafta spend 4 or 5 grand.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Your both funny, and have valid points.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Ah whats the use?


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

stillaround said:


> Ah whats the use?


 I agree 100% with nhm...........and I agree 100% with TM.:laughing:


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

*Location, location, location*

I think everyone here would agree that the type of work you do, depends on where you live.
I agree with nhM's philosophy, but that just aint going to work, with my customers. I did just 2 calls yesterday. My 1st call was toilet repair, & install 2 new lav faucets, & clean out lav drains. This lady is a widow. She bought not only the lav faucets from Blowes, but also bought the P-traps, the ballcock, & flapper. I put them all in for her. My material I supplied......, basically 5 supply lines & 2 jamb nuts, w/ washers. The faucets she bought were Delta, which cost her about $75 each. 
The whole time I was there, she was worried about the cost, & gave me her whole saga. If I told her to go fly a kite, I don't need her work, I'd be sitting home.
Now if this lady needed a fixture vented, you think she can, or would, pay for running an atmospheric vent, versus a AAV? No way. Just saying.

I'd love to sell everyone of my customers, L copper pipe, Sch 40 pvc, or cast iron, Grohe faucets with body sprays & rain heads, steam units, Toto toilets & all the other high end products available. But if I insisted on all that, I'd be in the unenjoyment line, &/or bankruptcy court. 90% of the people around here can't afford it. Of the 10% that can afford it, only 5% will spend. The other 5% either don't care, or say its not worth it, or they are selling the house anyway, ect....... And that small 5% is simply not enough work to pay my bills.

The average house I work in, I would say to be $100,000 to $200,000 range. Thats whats around my location, or my neighborhood. Also with Mich economy, it has gotten much worse. Everyone wants to do the bare minimum, even if they have money, cuz their house aint worth chit anymore. I have tried to bid on replumbing some forclosed houses, with pex, & I can hardly buy the materials, for what these guys are doing them for. And they must be licensed, cuz they have to pass inspections, to get occupancy permits.

Now for TM:hang: I would go out in a heartbeat, & buy up Delta, or any other faucets, I thought were quality, if I knew I could sell them. I think what he did was perfect. You get 1.5% interest at Bank :thumbdown: on 15K, thats's about $225 per yr., or $20 a month, so that IMO is a great investment. 
Now I also think I'm a descent salesman too, but I simply do not see where I have, or ever will, be able to anticipate what my customers will buy, & be able to purchase, "and sell" enough of those preselected items, & make enough profit, to justify the investment. Atleast not in my neck of the woods, & in this economy. It "obviously" works for him, & I think thats great.But I know my business, & my customers enough to know, it wouldn't work for me. It would have, about 10 to 15 yrs ago, but not today.

And I also use AAV's, but only on kit sinks, lavs, & bar sinks, simply cuz it's unrealistic to tear up floors & walls, to run a VTR. And IMHO, you could unscrew the AAV's on those fixtures, (after the inspector left of course:laughing, & plug it, & no-one would even know the difference. Now I don't agree with using them for venting toilets, or a whole bathroom groups, or something larger, but on a hand washing sink, or bar sink, or resiential kit sink, it aint no problem. I don't think it cheapens, a properly sized, properly pitched plumbing system either.:thumbsup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Don The Plumber said:


> I think everyone here would agree that the type of work you do, depends on where you live.
> I agree with nhM's philosophy, but that just aint going to work, with my customers. I did just 2 calls yesterday. My 1st call was toilet repair, & install 2 new lav faucets, & clean out lav drains. This lady is a widow. She bought not only the lav faucets from Blowes, but also bought the P-traps, the ballcock, & flapper. I put them all in for her. My material I supplied......, basically 5 supply lines & 2 jamb nuts, w/ washers. The faucets she bought were Delta, which cost her about $75 each.
> The whole time I was there, she was worried about the cost, & gave me her whole saga. If I told her to go fly a kite, I don't need her work, I'd be sitting home.
> Now if this lady needed a fixture vented, you think she can, or would, pay for running an atmospheric vent, versus a AAV? No way. Just saying.
> ...


Bottom line is nhmaster has a double standard and I can explain how this is so.
His WHOLE aregument is that the atmospheric vent is better. Now does NHmaster buy the very best of everything he buys? I know he doesn't....I've seen the pics he has posted before and they look like they were taken with a polaroid and sent through a fax machine then posted So he expects everyone to buy the best but he for sure doesn't. thats hypocritical. His logic is defective and unrealistic.

People make sacrifices due to money everyday...in all aspects of life. Plumbing is no exception. :whistling2:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Don, why are you venting toilets?

TM please post the pictures that you say I posted because anything picture wise that I posted was from my file on hack plumbing and not done by my company. 

It wasn't all that long ago that I thought I could not charge the little old lady flat rate but time has proven otherwise. Sure I loose some. So what? Hey, how low will you go? Who are you allowing to set YOUR prices? You, the customer or your competition?

Those arguments never hold water. If it cost's you a hundred bucks an hour to operate than you damn well better make a hundred dollars plus or you are going under.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Don, why are you venting toilets?
> 
> You know what I meant.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Don, why are you venting toilets?
> 
> TM please post the pictures that you say I posted because anything picture wise that I posted was from my file on hack plumbing and not done by my company.
> 
> ...


What do you mean how low will I go? If your talking about prices I bid the job according to whats needed and if the code will allow a studor vent and the customer only wants to pay for a studor vent....then they get a studor.

I'm glad you realize a business has to make a profit or its a hobby.

I'll find yo pictures for ya if they still there.....on a thread some place.I will look.

Add> I didn't find the pictures but you posted them...it was from some trade school competition. .....Fuzzy pics. Anyway I did find another thread that proved my point even better.....go have a read. Your complaining about 75.00 and shipping but wouldn't mind ripping a mans house apart costing him possibly thousands and at least hundreds instead of using a code approved studor that takes 5 minutes to replace IF it goes bad before the house is torn down. You see its human nature to spend others peoples money an obscene manner but when it comes to YOUR money the strings get pulled TIGHT.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> What do you mean how low will I go? If your talking about prices I bid the job according to whats needed and if the code will allow a studor vent and the customer only wants to pay for a studor vent....then they get a studor.
> 
> *Thats Bull**** and you know it. You base your prices on what the competition is charging and what you "think" is the maximum you can get out of the customer. You don't have the confidence to set the price or the materials you use. You are not running your business. The business runs you*
> 
> ...


*No, I would have no problem "ripping the mans house apart" because I have no problem doing the job right. Before AAV's were allowed, that's what we all did and that's what I still do.*

Don, I know you know, just chain yanking :laughing:

TM, you are'nt very good at this debate thing are you? No pictures? That would be because I never posted any such thing but even if I did and they were of a trade school competition, what in gods name would that have to do with work my company does? You need to lay off the hard stuff for a bit and let the old brain clear.

Fish finder. I can well afford to buy a new one and since that three year old thread, I have. At any rate how do you connect shipping costs with AAV's? 

You go on and keep doing what you feel is the right way. I've told you that many times. I don't care what all the little fish do, how much they charge, what their ethics are or anything at all about their business dealings good or bad. I care about my companies reputation and as of now we have the reputation as a company that does top quality ( and top dollar ) work without compromise. You just don't get it do you. We don't have to sell AAV's or any other products or services that we don't like. We don't compete with the little fish, don't care, don't try. I set my price and if the customer does not like it, they can call a little fish and take their chances. It's beginning to sound like you may be a bit jealous or insecure in what you are doing :laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

We at Redwood Publishing are pleased to announce the latest book in our series of our "How To" trade guides for both the trade professional and the DIYer. The author is a legend in his own mind and is highly skilled in avoiding a vent through the roof as every customer he has is a broke old lady that doesn't need good plumbing...:laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Redwood said:


> We at Redwood Publishing are pleased to announce the latest book in our series of our "How To" trade guides for both the trade professional and the DIYer. The author is a legend in his own mind and is highly skilled in avoiding a vent through the roof as every customer he has is a broke old lady that doesn't need good plumbing...:laughing:


I should write a book on how to drink for free because I did all night on a iron workers dime. 7 beers and 35.00 in cash later he decided he cant win:whistling2: No shiot:laughing:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

7. beers, that musta been some amazing pool being played too bad ESPN wasn't there for that one :laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> 7. beers, that musta been some amazing pool being played too bad ESPN wasn't there for that one :laughing:


Sounds like small time stakes...
I know a good many players that wouldn't take their cue out of their car for that kind of money...:laughing:
But then again they have been on ESPN...:whistling2:

If you are happy and call it success I guess thats all thats all that really counts...
You goals of success might not match someone else's...


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Look at it like this. A night out, 35 bucks and free beers. don't quit your day job though.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Look at it like this. A night out, 35 bucks and free beers. don't quit your day job though.


When I was 21, I thought it was 'cool' to be able to go out with no money in my pocket and drink all night long for free.

Now I think it's 'cool' that I can go out with a lot of money in my pocket and I don't have to rely on the generosity or stupidity of others. If I don't feel like being sociable or am in a ball busting mood, when the 'free' drink comes my way, I just shake my head. 

Cold . . . shot down in flames and a drink on the bar with melting ice cubes!:yes:

Success is not finding the 'free' ride . . . success is being able to pay for your ride and give others a 'free' ride just for the helluva it.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I'll play for a beer but when money starts changing hands that's when things can get ugly. I've seen a lot of chumps get hustled over the years by guys that they though sucked at pool. sometimes it takes a few weeks for the shark to finally move in on his dinner. #1 rule of pool sharking. Don't drink. Can you imagine getting rolled in the parking lot over 10 bucks? If I'm gonna get my ass beat it's going to be for a whole lot more than that :thumbsup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I'll play for a beer but when money starts changing hands that's when things can get ugly. I've seen a lot of chumps get hustled over the years by guys that they though sucked at pool. sometimes it takes a few weeks for the shark to finally move in on his dinner. #1 rule of pool sharking. Don't drink. Can you imagine getting rolled in the parking lot over 10 bucks? If I'm gonna get my ass beat it's going to be for a whole lot more than that :thumbsup:


Well thats one of the differences between us. No I cant imagine being rolled in the parking lot ...I wear an ankle holster.:thumbsup:

You dont even hafta hustle bar players.....all you hafta do is walk in and say...."who wants to loose their money" They line the fk up.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

The guy with the gun always goes to jail. Are you smart about anything or do you live life going from one stupid decision to the next?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> The guy with the gun always goes to jail. Are you smart about anything or do you live life going from one stupid decision to the next?


Hey where does the guy that gets shot go? The hospital,graveyard or straight to hell???? maybe all three huh..who knows.:laughing: I wouln;t trade places with him would you? I live in the south......shooting people is not that big a deal....it happens.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Hey where does the guy that gets shot go? The hospital,graveyard or straight to hell???? maybe all three huh..who knows.:laughing: I wouln;t trade places with him would you? *I live in the south......shooting people is not that big a deal....it happens.*







:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
Yep you got that right!


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Yep, no big deal. Southern jails are filled with guys that did the shooting or are ya saying the judge just lets em go :whistling2: course, if'n I was you, I'd probably carry too :laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Redwood said:


> YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
> 
> :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
> Yep you got that right!


I dont think you realize how much truth the punchline has in that video. 



nhmaster3015 said:


> Yep, no big deal. Southern jails are filled with guys that did the shooting or are ya saying the judge just lets em go :whistling2: course, if'n I was you, I'd probably carry too :laughing:


I dont think you understand the stance taken on robbing and stealing here. You can use lethal force here to protect your property here........tha means if i walk out and a guy is in my van in the middle of the night stealing my tools i dont hafta say a word......I can pull the trigger if I want and be within my rights. That crap about not being able to shoot sombody in the back.....that dont apply here.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

How does it apply to a guy beating the snot out of you because you sharked his azz? Can you shoot him? Self defense I suppose. good luck with that though. You with gun, him with fists.......... Better to let him smack you around a bit and then sue the pant off him :thumbsup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> How does it apply to a guy beating the snot out of you because you sharked his azz? Can you shoot him? Self defense I suppose. good luck with that though. You with gun, him with fists.......... Better to let him smack you around a bit and then sue the pant off him :thumbsup:


 Thats a concern...but I really dont hustle anyone. But you dont hafta hustle to get nto a fight playing pool. If you lose and sdont wanna pay I dont say anything...I move along. Payment is voluntary on their end. It wouldn't be a fair fight because fights are usually not fair...it starts with a blind side bottle to the head or a cue stick to the head. Its a real concern like I said.
But if I see a fight coming I usually leave and go to the next place and play there....you get a vibe usually. Most people I play with enjoy playing a good player and it doesn't matter if they are losing.

If things go south I'm a descent size guy of 200lb and can knock sombody out with either hand. Knock on wood i've never been in a bar fight over a pool game. I did however go a round with a bartender downtown one night,it wasn't all that bad and it was quick.......I heard my description being called out over the street beat cops radios as they walked by me but I had removed my shirt and just had the t-shirt on I was wearing after I left the club. The street has like 30 bars side by side lining the street. It gets nuts down there


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech said:


> I just saw a ghost.
> 
> Nice to see ya around KTS :thumbup:


Eh, I don't come here much anymore because all my posts tend to get deleted after someone whines about them like a little girl.

This one will be gone soon too I would bet.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

You are VERY welcome here.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

That's such a shame KTS. I remember you being a well-respected contributing member. There are several others like you that have all but stopped posting too.

Glad you still stop by once in a while. :thumbup:


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> That's such a shame KTS. I remember you being a well-respected contributing member.


I don't know about the respected part.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

You are respected in my book. I still remember when you called me out on something and it really bothered me because I respected your opinion. You also were accepting of me day one.


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## LEAD INGOT (Jul 15, 2009)

Killertoiletspider said:


> I don't know about the respected part.


 I do, glad to see you.


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