# To all florida contractors installing solar domestic water heaters



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Apparently some of you out there do not know this:

13-612.AB.3.4 Solar water heating systems. Solar systems for domestic hot water production are rated by the annual solar energy factor of the system. The solar energy factor of a system shall be determined from the Florida Solar Energy Center Directory of Certified Solar Systems. Solar collectors shall be tested in accordance with ISO Standard 9806, Test Methods for Solar Collectors, and SRCC Standard TM-1, Solar Domestic Hot Water System and Component Test Protocol. Collectors in installed solar water heating systems should meet the following criteria:

1. Be installed with a tilt angle between *10 degrees and 40 degrees of the horizontal; and*

2. Be installed at an orientation *within 45 degrees of true south*.




So the next time I roll up to a HOs house and see a collector flush mounted on a North, East or West facing roof deck I am calling code enforcement! This crap is getting old! :furious:



Florida solar water heater, Florida solar water heating, solar water heater, solar domestic water heater, solar collector mounting, solar collector orientation, solar panel orientation, collector azimuth


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Sounds like you've installed a good number of solar systems. I've only replaced existing systems, ie: panels, W/H's, etc. I have not installed a new system.

If I ever have a new install, I'll be sure to ask you if I have any questions or concerns.


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## McSlagerhaden (Jun 12, 2011)

Protech said:


> Collectors in installed solar water heating systems should meet the following criteria:


Apparently you need to learn the difference between "shall" and "should." Go ahead - call. It's a recommendation, not a requirement in the code.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Onliest thang ...once it be sayin should...and a lawyer looks into the jury's eyes and points to the defendant ......what he should have known.....is going to mean shall....


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

McSlagerhaden said:


> Apparently you need to learn the difference between "shall" and "should." Go ahead - call. It's a recommendation, not a requirement in the code.


 



You 'shall' post us an intro; all newbies are required to do so. Then, 'should' you wish to post, you may do so.


How's that for correctly using 'shall' and 'should'?

shall=mandatory
should=optional


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

So, even though you would be a dumbass for not doing it right, you would technically be able to get away with it. :whistling2:



McSlagerhaden said:


> Apparently you need to learn the difference between "shall" and "should." Go ahead - call. It's a recommendation, not a requirement in the code.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

I have personally been through the "mandatory language" arguments of shall and should with inspectors before. They do interpret it that way, as does the legal system. Shall, will, must vs should. Should holds no water in the court room and there are mountains of precedence that supports it.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

ckoch407 said:


> I have personally been through the "mandatory language" arguments of shall and should with inspectors before. They do interpret it that way, as does the legal system. Shall, will, must vs should. Should holds no water in the court room and there are mountains of precedence that supports it.


 I have personally sat across from a judge who was as ignorant as a toadstool, and he asked me what was the "best" way to install something.....and no suprise he awarded to the homeowner $1500.....based only on what was the best way.....

I cant believe someone can argue for what you can get away with on $5000 systems....


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

So again, even though you would be a dumbass for not doing it right, you would technically be able to get away with it.

That would still make you a hack if you do it the wrong way. You would be going against industry standards set forth by the FSEC. You would be selling a product of poor value to your unwitting clients.

That would put anyone not adhering to these guidelines in the same category as PCPlumber, a blight on the industry.



ckoch407 said:


> I have personally been through the "mandatory language" arguments of shall and should with inspectors before. They do interpret it that way, as does the legal system. Shall, will, must vs should. Should holds no water in the court room and there are mountains of precedence that supports it.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

They have a jury on pesky little civil trails? Usually just a judge. The concept still works though.



stillaround said:


> Onliest thang ...once it be sayin should...and a lawyer looks into the jury's eyes and points to the defendant ......what he should have known.....is going to mean shall....


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Protech said:


> So again, even though you would be a dumbass for not doing it right, you would technically be able to get away with it.
> 
> That would still make you a hack if you do it the wrong way. You would be going against industry standards set forth by the FSEC. You would be selling a product of poor value to your unwitting clients.
> 
> That would put anyone not adhering to these guidelines in the same category as PCPlumber, a blight on the industry.


Yes and yes. You would be a dumbass/hack/ripoff for doing it that way. And yes you could get away with it pursuant to the existing language of "should". Would I do it that way? Hell to the no. All of my installs face true south and or get a tilt kit. They are all boiling hot as we speak.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

stillaround said:


> I have personally sat across from a judge who was as ignorant as a toadstool, and he asked me what was the "best" way to install something.....and no suprise he awarded to the homeowner $1500.....based only on what was the best way.....
> 
> I cant believe someone can argue for what you can get away with on $5000 systems....


Man that sucks. I guess that goes to show anything can happen in the legal system and we get as much Due Process as we can afford. A good lawyer would have shredded that judge. But good lawyers usually cost more than what he nailed you for. Creep must've been watching dateline the night before.


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## McSlagerhaden (Jun 12, 2011)

Protech said:


> So again, even though you would be a dumbass for not doing it right, you would technically be able to get away with it.
> 
> That would still make you a hack if you do it the wrong way. You would be going against industry standards set forth by the FSEC. You would be selling a product of poor value to your unwitting clients.


a) FSEC is an annoying impediment to the industry in many ways, and the "standards" are not necessarily what people *want* which is ultimately what counts (all that liberty we enjoy 'round here).

b) Who the hell are you to say what's "right" (and call me a dumbass, dumbass). If there are no optimal roof faces and a customer want's a collector on their NE roof, and the insist on it, and they sign a waiver acknowledging the performance (lack thereof), then it is entirely within their rights to have it, and entirely in my rights to give it to them. What you are advocating is some sort of fascist "nobody should drive a Ferrari" or more aptly "nobody should drive a Kia" mentality. You are everything that is wrong in the solar business. Suboptimal is not illegal, immoral, nor "wrong." 

Take you egalitarian perspective of who should have what-where and shove it. Just another reason that plumbers should not do solar... They don't understand the business, the customers, the performance characteristics, and the finer points of solar thermal energy.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Protech said:


> They have a jury on pesky little civil trails? Usually just a judge. The concept still works though.


 No..small claims ...I was being illustrative...once you fail to do what you should..you have no credibility in a courtroom or argument....people can can not pay and have less impunity.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Ok, now I know just how serious this guy really is.

Based on your comments, I gather you are not a plumber then. BTW, I also passed my solar contractor exam with a 93. I am not just a plumber.

But I digress. Please, keep installing pool collectors at a 45 degree angle facing north because that happens to be the roof face that's easiest for you to stack panels on. 



McSlagerhaden said:


> a) *FSEC is an annoying impediment to the industry* in many ways, and the "standards" are not necessarily what people *want* which is ultimately what counts (all that liberty we enjoy 'round here).
> 
> b) Who the hell are you to say what's "right" (and call me a dumbass, dumbass). If there are no optimal roof faces and a customer want's a collector on their NE roof, and the insist on it, and they sign a waiver acknowledging the performance (lack thereof), then it is entirely within their rights to have it, and entirely in my rights to give it to them. What you are advocating is some sort of fascist "nobody should drive a Ferrari" or more aptly "nobody should drive a Kia" mentality. You are everything that is wrong in the solar business. Suboptimal is not illegal, immoral, nor "wrong."
> 
> Take you egalitarian perspective of who should have what-where and shove it. *Just another reason that plumbers should not do solar*... They don't understand the business, the customers, the performance characteristics, and the finer points of solar thermal energy.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Was that a solar flair? :blink:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Protech said:


> Ok, now I know just how serious this guy really is.
> 
> Based on your comments, I gather you are not a plumber then. BTW, I also passed my solar contractor exam with a 93. I am not just a plumber.
> 
> But I digress. Please, keep installing pool collectors at a 45 degree angle facing north because that happens to be the roof face that's easiest for you to stack panels on.


 



Since solar work is part of the scope of a licensed plumber's work, why did you take a 'solar contractor' exam? My license allows me, per state statute, to install solar systems without needing any additional license. So what's up? Does the add'l. license give you more credibility?


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> Since solar work is part of the scope of a licensed plumber's work, why did you take a 'solar contractor' exam? My license allows me, per state statute, to install solar systems without needing any additional license. So what's up? Does the add'l. license give you more credibility?


He may have been one of the "registered plumbers" that was grandfathered to a "certified plumber" about 12 years ago. Just guessing. I know several locally who are now certified without have to take the certified test. Not questioning ProTech's Knowledge in the field, just sayin'.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

gitnerdun said:


> He may have been one of the "registered plumbers" that was grandfathered to a "certified plumber" about 12 years ago. Just guessing. I know several locally who are now certified without have to take the certified test. Not questioning ProTech's Knowledge in the field, just sayin'.


 



I've read about the law where the state may allow a person with the county master's license to get a state-wide license if that person met certain criteria.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> Since solar work is part of the scope of a licensed plumber's work, why did you take a 'solar contractor' exam? My license allows me, per state statute, to install solar systems without needing any additional license. So what's up? Does the add'l. license give you more credibility?


I took the solar contractors exam so that I could Install photovoltaic systems. it also gives me a selling advantage w.hen bidding against somebody else. I can be a plumber and a solar contractor.


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

Protech said:


> I took the solar contractors exam so that I could Install photovoltaic systems. it also gives me a selling advantage w.hen bidding against somebody else. I can be a plumber and a solar contractor.


I wish I were so ambitious. I have a buddy who is looking closely at importing solar equip, so maybe soon I will jump in.


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## jennyrox (Jun 23, 2011)

Importing solar equipment is great thing. It gives you environmental protection. It increases value of your property also.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

jennyrox said:


> Importing solar equipment is great thing. It gives you environmental protection. It increases value of your property also.


Please post an introduction in the introduction section.


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

i see everyones point here, like stated you can install solar as a licensed plumber, now try to fine tune the system for optimal use. set flow rates right for indirect ( closed loop) systems.
give a customer a kwhr saving.
i to have taken several solar courses and got certified (insane) :laughing:
the courses do educate you on the in and out of systems and layouts.
once installed and set up, if it works right then it is right.
i got a call to commission a solar water install a couple of months back for a plumber who installed for some one and i was taken back by the mess he created.
was not happy with me when i told him it needed to come out and be reinstalled to a competent standard.
i knew something was wrong when i asked where the thermowell was for t1.
his reply (whats a t1)


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Mark, what do you guy's do to protect against hail in OK. ?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It would have to be some HUGE hail to harm that thick tempered glass.

You can throw 2x4s at the collectors i put in and they wont break. 



SlickRick said:


> Mark, what do you guy's do to protect against hail in OK. ?


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

we had a hail storm last year and the hail was the size of base balls.
and i thought i would get lots of insurance work.... :whistling2:
nope not one damaged, but i did get paid to remove them so the roofers could put the new roofs on property's. that was a nice earner for a few months.:thumbsup:
i actually had one blow over onto a concrete slab and thought thats the end of that unit, nope the slab snapped in half and the collector was fine, i still have that collector in the shop as i wont install it just in case. not worth the risk.
the only damage i get is with evacuated tubes, fragile as hell.
i got thousands of them suckers.


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

also customers always ask me what happens when hail stones hit them. tell them that they will be fine, then on a lighter note i ask them do they think of hail and what it does when they purchase a nice new 30k car..... nope...
does that 30k return there investment..... nope.....
that starts the brain ticking.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Are they popular in OKC. Ken and I talked about it a while back and I don't remember what the downside was for our area, if it was winter or what? I have never seen one anywhere near hear. Further south than OKC for sure. I had a guy that wanted me to get into solar 3 yrs ago. He wanted to be the first one around here to have one.

Or could it have been all the tall pine trees blocking the sun part of the day?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

mark kiernan said:


> we had a hail storm last year and the hail was the size of base balls.
> and i thought i would get lots of insurance work.... :whistling2:
> nope not one damaged, but i did get paid to remove them so the roofers could put the new roofs on property's. that was a nice earner for a few months.:thumbsup:
> i actually had one blow over onto a concrete slab and thought thats the end of that unit, nope the slab snapped in half and the collector was fine, i still have that collector in the shop as i wont install it just in case. not worth the risk.
> ...


Finally! someone to back me up on that! I have argued that with several people. There was a guy on here about a year ago saying those tubes were sturdy :laughing:. They may not have the wind loads of a flat plate but if something crashes into them it really doesn't matter does it?


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

i have a lot of systems in texas,
mainly fort worth area.
i mainly supply to ranchers out that way though.
tall pine trees wont help with gain though,,, :laughing:
the evacuated tubes look nice but break so easy. i try not to make eye contact with them as im afraid they will break. :whistling2:
i also use pop can heaters to help out in winter to heat my shop.
check out those bad boys on the web.
pop can heater, soda can heater.
they push out some serious heat for free. 
down side, only when the sun hits them.
but hey, its free heat in winter.
i have built three of them now.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

mark kiernan said:


> i have a lot of systems in texas,
> mainly fort worth area.
> i mainly supply to ranchers out that way though.
> tall pine trees wont help with gain though,,, :laughing:
> ...


no need for pop-can heaters here in central florida. It doesn't get cold enough.


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

that would be nice to have to never need them.
the weather in oklahoma is too harsh.
5 p.m yesterday its was 106f and i was under a house working. man it was hot.
when finished i got straight in the pool. with the owners consent of course.
gotta love nice customers,


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## HOT H2O (Sep 23, 2011)

I just started installing these smaller panels from The Green Outlet. The manufacturer says they can be laid flat on their rack that mounts under your soffit and allows the panel to slide out for use, or in for storage. 

The system is pretty cool, and installs fairly quickly and easily in comparison to other systems I've installed. It uses flat copper pipe inside the panel to increase efficiency over a smaller footprint.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

HOT H2O said:


> I just started installing these smaller panels...


How 'bout a howdy and a hand shake>>> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/


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