# Failed heater inspection.



## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

We replaced a water heater in a rental a few weeks ago. Usually we are present for inspection unless it’s something simple like a heater or laundry at a rental. 

We have two inspectors in this one city, inspector A and inspector B. Inspector A is a moron and can’t seem to figure out how to use a phone in order return a call, inspector B had to take the Master test ten times and was fired by my Master years ago for stealing (also one of my Master’s worst plumber, but awesome drain cleaner).

We prefer inspector B because we can at least get a call back. This particular LL likes inspector A. 

So inspector A shows up a half hour late. Says to the LL “Oh, you’re the LL. Sorry, my computer has issues and had to drop it off at IT. All I know is the address and the plumber who pulled the permit. What am I hear to inspect?”

LL: “Water heater”

Inspector A: “Oh, I hope he did his math!”

WTF????

We install to code. 4” vent, plastic drip tube secured to the heater (instead of burning up a flat mickey we 45 the bottom and secure it with a zip screw, like a laundry stand pipe). First thing inspector A does is yank on it real hard. Not once but twice. Then he kicks the heater up to max to check the vent draw. “Yep, it’s good.” Turns it back down and sticks his hand in the vent hood. “I can’t pass this. He used a 3” vent hood.”

LL: “So what do we need to do?”

Inspector A: “He (the plumber) needs to figure it out.” When LL asks what he means... “I haven’t bought a heater in 12 years, he’ll just have to figure it out.”


I don’t know about any of you, but neither my Master nor I have ever seen seen a 4” only vent hood. Besides, manufacture specs supersedes code. Right after we met with the LL on a different job we had to stop by the supply house for tomorrow’s job and asked if they had ever heard of one. Nope.

We’ve butted heads with this idiot in the past. 

One example was an RO system we put in. We protected the RO system that fed three coffee makers with air gaps. (Specialty coffee, not like gas station coffee makers.) He made us protect each fixture.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Cripes, good thing we don't have them, and stupid. When and if we ever see one they will end up filing in complaint paperwork.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Tango said:


> Cripes, good thing we don't have them, and stupid. When and if we ever see one they will end up filing in complaint paperwork.


You don’t have inspectors??!!?!! Really? The official who determines if the plumbing work was performed in compliance with the health and safety of the nation... they don’t inspect?


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

OpenSights said:


> You don’t have inspectors??!!?!! Really? The official who determines if the plumbing work was performed in compliance with the health and safety of the nation... they don’t inspect?


I said it many times, no inspectors, the government doesn't have the budget or something.

On big jobs usually the engineer who made the plans who inspects but not always. New residential nothing.

You should see how many corners are cut. You cut corners you get to keep your job in most cases. You as a plumber who tries to follow code amongst all other employees you are the first to get laid off. Time is money!


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Mirror. $125 us for a heater permit. All about the money here.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

OpenSights said:


> Mirror. $125 us for a heater permit. All about the money here.


What about the homeowner and he does it himself? I bet he doesn't need to pay that.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Tango said:


> What about the homeowner and he does it himself? I bet he doesn't need to pay that.


Legally HO permit. I didn’t.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

The draft hood comes with the W/H from the mfg. and it will fit either 3" or 4". I don't install a lot, but I've seen this on all the recent installs that I've done. Is that what he's picking on?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I am glad that this city and state does not require
permits to change out a simple water heater........it would raise 
the price dramatically and waste a whole lot of time .... 

The plumber would be punished but the guy who goes to a hardware
store and buys his own would get away with doing it himself.....

it is Just something else to make work and collect fees for


the inspectors in our area do not know what they are doing and
someday I would LOVE to have a position going around inspecting
jobs.... but I would probably not last long....


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> *The plumber would be punished but the guy who goes to a hardware
> store and buys his own would get away with doing it himself.....*



That's what it is here, plumbing contractors are supposed to send in 22$ for a water heater. The home owner doesn't need to. I'd be surprised if any company sends that money in.

The ascociation has been asking the ministry to remove that fee for a while. The elected had promised they would remove it but didn't.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> That's what it is here, plumbing contractors are supposed to send in 22$ for a water heater. The home owner doesn't need to. I'd be surprised if any company sends that money in.
> 
> The ascociation has been asking the ministry to remove that fee for a while. The elected had promised they would remove it but didn't.



22 dollars is CHEAP but the time spent kissing up to those inspectors could be unlimited.. 

If they sell heaters in the hardware stores, they are being installed every 
day without permits.........

in our town there is a loophole in the law that says if you replace a 40 with another 40 then their is no need to get a permit.... if you upgrade to a 50 or 75 then you need a permit..... 

but no one gets a permit for an upgrade either and actually does it....




.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> 22 dollars is CHEAP but the time spent kissing up to those inspectors could be unlimited..
> 
> If they sell heaters in the hardware stores, they are being installed every
> day without permits.........
> ...


Over here it you replace lets say a toilet, sink, faucet no fees. But if you move the toilet pipe 6 inches then you should send in 22$ for the first item and 11$ for each other fixture that you move away from the original location. That too I'd be surprised how many actually send in the money.

Heck GCs most times don't hire plumbing contractors in renos so that means they never send in any money for that. What a mess.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Tommy plumber said:


> The draft hood comes with the W/H from the mfg. and it will fit either 3" or 4". I don't install a lot, but I've seen this on all the recent installs that I've done. Is that what he's picking on?


Yep. I’ve never seen any different hood.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

OpenSights said:


> Yep. I’ve never seen any different hood.



I have a 50 gallon high out put water heater that has a 4 inch only damper and a standard 50 gallon water heater with a 3 or 4 inch damper...so not all the same, code here for minimum flue is 4 inch from a water heater...
if your having issues with an inspector( many are clueless and not licensed plumbers) you need to educate the fat heads..call the manufacture and explain the issue and have them send you a letter stating their water heater with that size damper meets local code, or see a rep in the supply house to get some paper work on that, otherwise the inspector will keep playing the game of he knows better..some do many dont...


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

https://www.bradfordwhite.com/3x4-draft-diverter-atmospheric-units-0

Send this line link to the inspector and he’ll probably sign you off


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

I have seen 4in only vent hoods. Installed one today in fact. BUT, they are only seen on Apollo type heaters with side loops, because they use more BTUs, and are rated for higher performance.

All others I have seen are 3 or 4 combo hood.

Many inspectors around here ding us for ridiculous things just to try to get the re inspection fee. We will call them on it if needed.

We stopped inspecting heaters in Durham county because they are so backed up with inspections that they were purposefully failing us for silly stuff just to "get back" at us for the workload.

Since that sort of thing only hurts the homeowner and their time. We made the decision to have the owner (licence holder) face time the installs. As long as it is like for like (for us, this means same fuel type, and vent configuration) no inspection is necessary.

Permits and inspections are privatized in some counties here, so there is a real drive for getting that re inspection fee since it's a for profit company.

It's a BS game they are playing with customers.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

ECH said:


> I have seen 4in only vent hoods. Installed one today in fact. BUT, they are only seen on Apollo type heaters with side loops, because they use more BTUs, and are rated for higher performance.
> 
> All others I have seen are 3 or 4 combo hood.
> 
> ...



One trick you always play on an inspector is forget a j hook or tallan. They got something! Run out to the truck and fix it.

Always schedule your inspection just before lunch or at the end of the day.


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

OpenSights said:


> One trick you always play on an inspector is forget a j hook or tallan. They got something! Run out to the truck and fix it.
> 
> Always schedule your inspection just before lunch or at the end of the day.


We aren't there at the time of inspection. I have seen a couple times a guy will go out to meet the inspector on a complicated job. But by and large, we tell the office girl that the job is ready to be inspected, then she tells the authority, and they work it out with the convenience of the customer.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

We’re just a two man shop, and no office girl. With as much as our phones ring it’s amazing we get any work done.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

OpenSights said:


> One trick you always play on an inspector is forget a j hook or tallan. They got something! Run out to the truck and fix it.
> 
> Always schedule your inspection just before lunch or at the end of the day.


Taking notes for Inspector 101.

How about spray painting the cpvc copper color then flooding the crawl space.


If an inspector doesn't have sense to read the manufactures approved installation instructions, they don't need to be doing the job. 


I have a lot of useless info floating around in my head, you start with basic codes then if not specified READ. That is if the contractor didn't hide the install instructions.


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

GAN said:


> Taking notes for Inspector 101.
> 
> How about spray painting the cpvc copper color then flooding the crawl space.
> 
> ...


That seems like a sensible approach, I don't know what some of our inspectors are thinking on some of the stuff they come up with.

The one that comes to mind first is a Tankless I helped on, the inspector dinged us for 1/8 of an inch too close to the joist (12in is code, we were 11 7/8), and the recirc line needed insulated. Crawl space piping isn't required to be insulated for freezing, but there is a Dept of Energy code stating recirc lines need to be.

Even the homeowner was getting frustrated with the inspector because of all the silly stuff.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

You can bet if we ever have over zealous inspectors like that guys are going to retaliate. Many crazies and bikers working construction.


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

I just don't understand the end game of the inspectors. I mean, we pull permits because we want to do things right, and cover our butts, and the customers butts for insurance purposes.

The guys buying heaters at the big box or supply house and doing hack work with no licence or inspection are the ones that are hurting people. Why not crack down on them??


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ECH said:


> I just don't understand the end game of the inspectors. I mean, we pull permits because we want to do things right, and cover our butts, and the customers butts for insurance purposes.
> 
> The guys buying heaters at the big box or supply house and doing hack work with no licence or inspection are the ones that are hurting people. Why not crack down on them??


Some want to be superior, some are on a power trip, some want to justify their job. If they don't catch anything there is no use for them. Look busy on paper.

That aside :

It's harder to prove a hack with evidence in court. It's a lot easier to fine someone who provides a legit receipt. Then 60% of people think it's no big deal to hire a hack without a receipt. I've been asked by a federal tax man to install a basement bathroom cash under the table. Some businesses and many home owners will only pay cash. 

*BUT *they will throw you under the bus in a split second!


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Don’t get me wrong, we have some really good inspectors that we deal with outside of our largest local city. When we have a big job where following modern code can’t really be followed we meet with the inspector and throw the ball into his court and ask “what do you want to see?”. When dealing with 100+ y/o buildings sometimes plumbing to code with the existing plumbing or structure just isn’t possible without gasoline and a match.


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## Florida Plumber (Aug 27, 2017)

Master Mark said:


> If they sell heaters in the hardware stores, they are being installed every
> day without permits.........


Several years ago in Kentucky they started to get back at people doing that. The Home Depots there would ask for a permit number if you bought a water heater. Not in that area anymore so not sure if it is still a thing.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ECH said:


> That seems like a sensible approach, I don't know what some of our inspectors are thinking on some of the stuff they come up with.
> 
> The one that comes to mind first is a Tankless I helped on, the inspector dinged us for 1/8 of an inch too close to the joist (12in is code, we were 11 7/8), and the recirc line needed insulated. Crawl space piping isn't required to be insulated for freezing, but there is a Dept of Energy code stating recirc lines need to be.
> 
> Even the homeowner was getting frustrated with the inspector because of all the silly stuff.





Screwing you over an 1/8" is stupid. But you should have insulated those pipes when you were in there the first time. I believe hot/recirc should always be insulated, other wise the recirc is even more wasteful.








.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

I met one homeowner who bought his own mini split kit. He was so pissed when the supply house wouldn't sell him gas or manifolds and was giving him the run around on any question he asked.








.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> I met one homeowner who bought his own mini split kit. He was so pissed when the supply house wouldn't sell him gas or manifolds and was giving him the run around on any question he asked.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's because they are responsible for anything he does. We were well warned in contractor school never to give out advice because we would be 100% responsible for everything.

Someone asks if there 2nd floor balcony is safe and you say yes. It falls off or the person fall off then you will pay all medical bills till the end of time, a new balcony plus recompense and whatever else.

You tell the homeowner how to install gas pipe you are responsible. Even here supply houses do not sell oil or gas fittings. I couldn't even get them for myself even if I showed my trade certificate.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Update. Had a couple inspections yesterday with inspector B and asked him about this issue. Apparently there’s a code in the mechanical code book that’s not in the plumbing code book. Because of the size of the chimney, 8x12 I think he said, it is oversized for the btu’s of the furnace and heater. Somehow the 4/3” vent fcks with the math and needs to be a 4” not tapered down to 3”.

I’m not a HVAC tech, understand very little of the trade and code. In plumbing and drain cleaning, there are many codes I agree with, but some I think are totally unnecessary and only there for permit revenue.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

OpenSights said:


> Update. Had a couple inspections yesterday with inspector B and asked him about this issue. Apparently there’s a code in the mechanical code book that’s not in the plumbing code book. Because of the size of the chimney, 8x12 I think he said, it is oversized for the btu’s of the furnace and heater. Somehow the 4/3” vent fcks with the math and needs to be a 4” not tapered down to 3”.
> 
> I’m not a HVAC tech, understand very little of the trade and code. In plumbing and drain cleaning, there are many codes I agree with, but some I think are totally unnecessary and only there for permit revenue.


Good point. Yes when an old chimney is oversized with more efficient devices which run cooler. Heat equals convection & velocity, less heat convection & velocity. Mostly though it works in reverse. Smaller diameter piping less heat and velocity loss.

For instance, 100,00 total BTU may be fine in a single story structure with an 8" flue, not much chance for loss. Now a 2 story structure with an 8" flue, to much heat and velocity loss. Convection stops and vent gases pour back into and around a bonnet. Reduce the size of the flue to 6" and the heat loss and velocity are not affected. Been a while since I've sat and done the math. Have seen it happen when people go from a 40% efficient furnace with a brick chimney to an 80% connected to the same brick chimney. You have to use the old chimney as a liner for a metal B vent.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

GAN said:


> Good point. Yes when an old chimney is oversized with more efficient devices which run cooler. Heat equals convection & velocity, less heat convection & velocity. Mostly though it works in reverse. Smaller diameter piping less heat and velocity loss.
> 
> For instance, 100,00 total BTU may be fine in a single story structure with an 8" flue, not much chance for loss. Now a 2 story structure with an 8" flue, to much heat and velocity loss. Convection stops and vent gases pour back into and around a bonnet. Reduce the size of the flue to 6" and the heat loss and velocity are not affected. Been a while since I've sat and done the math. Have seen it happen when people go from a 40% efficient furnace with a brick chimney to an 80% connected to the same brick chimney. You have to use the old chimney as a liner for a metal B vent.



Question, out of curiosity, does outside conditions, factor in? He checked the draw, as we always do and it was drawing perfectly. He uses dust, we use a lighter. Single story house. Also if both the heater and furnace fire at the same time, is that a factor?

I thought the reason for liners was due to more moisture because of the higher efficiency. You don’t want moisture getting into the nicks and cracks during winter. Expansion contraction. Not draw...

I guess it’s similar to drainage. When I see a kitchen line only on a 4” underground 50% of the time a jetter is needed. I always give the customer the option of me attempting, but they have to pay either way. It’s rare I see it, maybe once every couple of years.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Sorry, been out on vacation. 

Work harder when I am out. Glad to be back to work...…..



Yes outside conditions make a difference, but I don't believe they are addressed directly in any code. If any code did I think it would be under the IECC possible the mechanical code. I can't recall anything in the IMC.

Heater & WH firing at the same time would tend to eliminate a possible drafting issues, more heat more velocity. Less chance of vent gasses cooling & falling.


I have seen this in new construction as well with an ultra tight home and not enough combustion air being drawn in.

Yes a liner is for keeping moisture down but it is a two fold game.


Under the right conditions (seems to be more of an issue during summer) I have seen more than one WH not draft and spill out CO into the basement. I believe cooler indoor air affects what would be in the winter a natural tendency to draft upward with hotter air and vent gasses.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

most appliances ( water heaters, boilers, furnaces, etc) have the size chimney and distance sizes in the installation booklet, with all the higher performances now its even more critical to follow them so you dont have problems...that big oil guzzler in that big chimney was no issue, till you install an efficient gas unit that exhausts less than half the heat to old one did, each job you do has to be looked at and sized to what your putting in or you will have problems..
a chimney on the exterior of the house is different than one on an inside wall, as now you have the outside climate affecting draft either by chilling or heating the chimney flue way..almost all gas appliances now should not go into an unlined brick or mortar chimney, should be lined with stainless steel liner...
different municipalities have their own add ons, but if you stick with the manufactures specs you should be good and any inspector should agree with the manufacture..


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Funny you bring this thread back up today. Tomorrow’s reinspection. This time we’re meeting with the mechanical inspector.

We found a true 4” vent hood and installed it last week. To be honest, I don’t understand the math behind it, but when we had the combo hood it sucked the flame of a bic lighter in nice and hard. When we put the true 4” hood it barely sucked it in at all. Weather on both days of installation and first inspection were pretty close. LL is going to install a couple carbon monoxide detectors. 

With what I saw, if that were my house with my kid and wife.... the combo hood would be going back in after inspection.... if I were to actually pull a permit in my own house that is.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> most appliances ( water heaters, boilers, furnaces, etc) have the size chimney and distance sizes in the installation booklet, with all the higher performances now its even more critical to follow them so you dont have problems...that big oil guzzler in that big chimney was no issue, till you install an efficient gas unit that exhausts less than half the heat to old one did, each job you do has to be looked at and sized to what your putting in or you will have problems..
> a chimney on the exterior of the house is different than one on an inside wall, as now you have the outside climate affecting draft either by chilling or heating the chimney flue way..almost all gas appliances now should not go into an unlined brick or mortar chimney, should be lined with stainless steel liner...
> different municipalities have their own add ons, but if you stick with the manufactures specs you should be good and any inspector should agree with the manufacture..


We called Rheem, talked with the rep and he said the combo vent was within manufacture specs for our situation.... but the Bible says....


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

OpenSights said:


> Funny you bring this thread back up today. Tomorrow’s reinspection. This time we’re meeting with the mechanical inspector.
> 
> We found a true 4” vent hood and installed it last week. To be honest, I don’t understand the math behind it, but when we had the combo hood it sucked the flame of a bic lighter in nice and hard. When we put the true 4” hood it barely sucked it in at all. Weather on both days of installation and first inspection were pretty close. LL is going to install a couple carbon monoxide detectors.
> 
> With what I saw, if that were my house with my kid and wife.... the combo hood would be going back in after inspection.... if I were to actually pull a permit in my own house that is.



the funnel or reduction in hood created a venturi like effect, the velocity was more through a smaller hole and created a good suction that pulled the bic lighter flame, once you opened up the hood to full 4 inch you cut the velocity and created less of a suction, that is my understanding of it as learned over the years, it may not be the engineered answer...


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> the funnel or reduction in hood created a venturi like effect, the velocity was more through a smaller hole and created a good suction that pulled the bic lighter flame, once you opened up the hood to full 4 inch you cut the velocity and created less of a suction, that is my understanding of it as learned over the years, it may not be the engineered answer...


Exactly my understanding too! 

Tomorrow I hope we get an education. I know the mechanical inspector, but he probably doesn’t remember me. I use to cable his main line as a prevent. I like the guy, no dummy like my plumbing inspectors. 

I only know plumbing mechanical vent code, not actual mechanical vent code.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

So inspector A showed up instead of the mechanical inspector. Both my Master an I were pissed! Got a sticker, so LL was happy. We had all kinds of questions ready for the mechanical inspector ready. My plumbing inspector A can’t explain the code.... it’s just in the book. In reality, his job isn’t about following code, his job is a revenue generator. That is a fact straight from plumbing inspector B’s mouth. If they don’t get x amount of reinspection fees they don’t have a job.


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## czplumbing (Nov 24, 2014)

OpenSights said:


> You don’t have inspectors??!!?!! Really? The official who determines if the plumbing work was performed in compliance with the health and safety of the nation... they don’t inspect?



Only thing they inspect around here is rough plumbing when we are doing a new house or reno. They only inspect the PVC : So your telling me to even install a water heater you need an inspector to check it out to make sure it was installed right ?


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

czplumbing said:


> Only thing they inspect around here is rough plumbing when we are doing a new house or reno. They only inspect the PVC : So your telling me to even install a water heater you need an inspector to check it out to make sure it was installed right ?


Yes sir. A heater permit is $125.


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## czplumbing (Nov 24, 2014)

OpenSights said:


> Yes sir. A heater permit is $125.


Take a look at my post in general plumbing discussion titled bad plumbing their is a video I put on there ,
what would have the inspector did in that situation


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

czplumbing said:


> Only thing they inspect around here is rough plumbing when we are doing a new house or reno. They only inspect the PVC : So your telling me to even install a water heater you need an inspector to check it out to make sure it was installed right ?


 I have my suffolk master plumbers license and have worked in most towns in suffolk( not the hamptons) and you technically need a permit for anything but a repair, now that doesnt mean you get one for changing a toilet or sink, but any renovation with a building permit you need a plumbing permit and 3 inspections, under ground, rough inspection, and finish, and another inspection for any gas work with an air test now( they outlawed any mercury testers)..so how can the hamptons only do a pvc inspection and call it good?
also permits and inspections for any heating or water heating equipment installed....
and some municipalities want a licensed plumber to file for HVAC for the water line for a humidifier and drain lines for the condensate..


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## czplumbing (Nov 24, 2014)

Im telling you its a joke, that's why a lot of unlicensed plumbers are out here getting away with it. We have to have underground work inspected as well if work is in slab, and yes we air test the gas and if national grid wants a letter head we provide it, but the inspectors are only concern about PVC work. Its Crazy I can remember when I was in local union 200 based out of Nassau county we were doing a lot of community developments and only thing I remember being tested was the gas with mercury test. we didn't fill the pvc with water or anything else


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

czplumbing said:


> Im telling you its a joke, that's why a lot of unlicensed plumbers are out here getting away with it. We have to have underground work inspected as well if work is in slab, and yes we air test the gas and if national grid wants a letter head we provide it, but the inspectors are only concern about PVC work. Its Crazy I can remember when I was in local union 200 based out of Nassau county we were doing a lot of community developments and only thing I remember being tested was the gas with mercury test. we didn't fill the pvc with water or anything else



what township only inspects pvc? suffolk county or some small village or township? most areas still only visual inspect the DWV system, north hempstead and a few villages want a water test...


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## czplumbing (Nov 24, 2014)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> what township only inspects pvc? suffolk county or some small village or township? most areas still only visual inspect the DWV system, north hempstead and a few villages want a water test...


East Hampton/ Southampton/Sag Harbor/Shelter island


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

czplumbing said:


> East Hampton/ Southampton/Sag Harbor/Shelter island


I guess those little out of the way towns can do as they please..they probably dont want to spend the salary to have inspectors inspect..lol


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## smythers1968 (Feb 4, 2009)

Opensites....What version of code are you working with?


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## smythers1968 (Feb 4, 2009)

OpenSights said:


> Update. Had a couple inspections yesterday with inspector B and asked him about this issue. Apparently there’s a code in the mechanical code book that’s not in the plumbing code book. Because of the size of the chimney, 8x12 I think he said, it is oversized for the btu’s of the furnace and heater. Somehow the 4/3” vent fcks with the math and needs to be a 4” not tapered down to 3”.
> 
> I’m not a HVAC tech, understand very little of the trade and code. In plumbing and drain cleaning, there are many codes I agree with, but some I think are totally unnecessary and only there for permit revenue.



As I do both Plumbing and Mechanical it is covered in the plumbing UPC and the Mechanical UMC with the same verbage.

It's about sizing a chimney for the appliance(s) and sizing the connecting arm of the appliance to the common flue. 

UPC 510.5.3 and the catcher is 510.5.4(Inspection of Chimney) that will force you in to placing a liner in the chimney unless you can verify 100% no cracks in the chimney.

More times over we convert the WH to electric vs connecting two appliances to a liner. At some point the furnace will go 90%+. 

Even your mechanical inspector seems like an idiot.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

smythers1968 said:


> Opensites....What version of code are you working with?


To be honest I have no clue really. Plumbing inspector pulled it out of the mechanical code book. The “angriest mayor” in America, Virge, really did a number on that city. Inspectors are required to find reinspection fees. No joke! A former employee of my Master, who was fired for stealing, is a city plumbing inspector let it slip.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Our latest code book.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

smythers1968 said:


> As I do both Plumbing and Mechanical it is covered in the plumbing UPC and the Mechanical UMC with the same verbage.
> 
> It's about sizing a chimney for the appliance(s) and sizing the connecting arm of the appliance to the common flue.
> 
> ...


What gets me is the draw with the necked down to 3” was much better than the 4” he required, which poses a greater chance of carbon monoxide especially with weather/wind. I understand about how much moisture these newer, more efficient heaters produce and expansion/contraction.... but apparently the chimney is more important than human life....


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## smythers1968 (Feb 4, 2009)

OpenSights said:


> What gets me is the draw with the necked down to 3” was much better than the 4” he required, which poses a greater chance of carbon monoxide especially with weather/wind. I understand about how much moisture these newer, more efficient heaters produce and expansion/contraction.... but apparently the chimney is more important than human life....


It is simple, Your inspectors are idiots. Residential water heater draft hoods are 3" and your connector arm off the draft hood is 3". Code states that as well as Mfg install instructions. From there your connecting arm needs to be as short as possible but may be up to 75% the height of the vertical flue. From there you have to go to flue vent tables, Mason chimney, B-Vent ect.

I would truely love to met your inspectors.

All my books are on my computer. So, when an inspector makes a call that I know is BS we look it up and I am very seldom wrong. If they make a call I will make them prove it to me on-site.

From the way I understand from this thread you had a WH and Furnace connected to the chimney.

With that the chimney is sized by 510.5.3(3).


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

smythers1968 said:


> It is simple, Your inspectors are idiots. Residential water heater draft hoods are 3" and your connector arm off the draft hood is 3". Code states that as well as Mfg install instructions. From there your connecting arm needs to be as short as possible but may be up to 75% the height of the vertical flue. From there you have to go to flue vent tables, Mason chimney, B-Vent ect.
> 
> I would truely love to met your inspectors.
> 
> ...



You must pull a work trailer....just to carry around your massive balls :biggrin:


You show those inspectors who is boss!!!





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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

skoronesa said:


> You must pull a work trailer....just to carry around your massive balls :biggrin:
> 
> 
> You show those inspectors who is boss!!!
> ...


Lol! Honestly it’s not the inspectors... they’re just trying to stay employed. The money hungry government is the real problem.

I’m all about protecting the health and welfare of the nation... I’m a common sense type of person.

This particular situation really rubbed me the wrong way! We have less draw, and really barely any draw at all. But code says....

Truth be told, we gave the original hood to the LL and told him to reinstall it after we got finaled, to protect his tenant, who’s a firefighter and was present for this whole debacle.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

smythers1968 said:


> It is simple, Your inspectors are idiots. Residential water heater draft hoods are 3" and your connector arm off the draft hood is 3". Code states that as well as Mfg install instructions. From there your connecting arm needs to be as short as possible but may be up to 75% the height of the vertical flue. From there you have to go to flue vent tables, Mason chimney, B-Vent ect.
> 
> I would truely love to met your inspectors.
> 
> ...



code in my area is minimum 4 inch flue for ANY appliance aka water heater...even though the water heaters come with a 3 inch hood, but the inspectors go with whatever is factory is good, the manufacture knows better than an individual inspector...hence they had engineers designing the product...
some inspectors want to think they are smarter than the engineers, but usually once you show them the install guide from the manufacture they agree...and every once in a while you get one that just wants to break balls, and thats the one the code book comes out for...


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## smythers1968 (Feb 4, 2009)

OpenSights said:


> Lol! Honestly it’s not the inspectors... they’re just trying to stay employed. The money hungry government is the real problem.
> 
> I’m all about protecting the health and welfare of the nation... I’m a common sense type of person.
> 
> ...



Truth being told, It is the inspectors. But, when the law suit for CO poisoning or wrongful death gets served to your door do not look to the city for coverage. Not knowing that the same info in Mech Code is in Plumbing Code in the WH section and failing to understand is not a going to stand as an excuse as a licensed guy in court.

skoronesa jokes that I carry my balls in a trailer and jokes that I am a used car salesman in a WH replacement to electric but, In the end it is my and only my fault if someone gets injured in my work. I am State tested and a Licensed trained guy where as an Inspector studies a book, goes and takes a test and Holy Cow is a Know all of the Code Inspector. I will give respect to an inspector but will not allow my work to suffer because the inspector is ignorant and I am not but, then again if I was lacking I would follow the inspectors guide.

If a AHJ wants it a certain way and I know it is wrong I have a form for them sign assuming fault.

Do not get me wrong I do not go looking for a fight with inspectors but, this is my trade and I am not looking to the inspectors for training.

It is funny to me that the State of MI adopts the Uniform Plumbing Code and then renames it to the MI Plumbing Code.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

I failed my water heater inspection today. It was a change out in an outside metal water heater cabinet. The inspector shows up and I take her through the side gate to check the heater. She says it looks good, then she says we need to go in the house so she can verify a smoke detector in each bedroom and a combo smoke/carbon monoxide detector in the hall.

There were no smoke detectors in the bedrooms so she can’t finalize the permit until they’re installed and a re-inspection.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Debo22 said:


> I failed my water heater inspection today. It was a change out in an outside metal water heater cabinet. The inspector shows up and I take her through the side gate to check the heater. She says it looks good, then she says we need to go in the house so she can verify a smoke detector in each bedroom and a combo smoke/carbon monoxide detector in the hall.
> 
> There were no smoke detectors in the bedrooms so she can’t finalize the permit until they’re installed and a re-inspection.





yup..I got that schit in my area too..I did a direct replacement bathroom for a town job and the plumbing inspector is like..do all the rooms have proper smoke and co detectors...and im like who the fk knows or cares it aint plumbing...and then he explained how they are checking for them and holding hostage the permits...


but better to fail for some BS like that than defect in workmanship....


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Debo22 said:


> She says it looks good, then she says we need to go in the house so she can verify a smoke detector in each bedroom and a combo smoke/carbon monoxide detector in the hall.
> 
> There were no smoke detectors in the bedrooms so she can’t finalize the permit until they’re installed and a re-inspection.





So you did not fail.







ShtRnsdownhill said:


> ..........do all the rooms have proper smoke and co detectors...and im like who the fk knows or cares it aint plumbing...and then he explained how they are checking for them and holding hostage the permits....




This bs is why people don't get permits.














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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

I can follow both train of thoughts.

I do agree why the heck is a "plumbing inspector" monitoring this. In Illinois in general by public act they require C.O. detectors within 15' of every sleeping room, for any dwelling that has gas appliances, wood burning equipment or an attached garage only, no matter when it was built.

Smokes are not covered by the mandate, but may be by a local municipality. That said they would need to adopt a "Property Maintenance Ordinance" to be able to properly enforce it.

Since homes built years ago under an approved code may have not been required to have smoke detectors installed. So if your an inspector be ready when the smart owners ask what code your enforcing and be ready to pull out the 1940 building code and prove it or point to an adopted ordinance. Been there.

Unless under a State Law your not required to be certified to inspect any type of work a municipality can allow any of its inspector to perform whatever inspections they need. My case besides my plumbing license I have ICC training & certifications for multiple inspections. These can be a joke (although I will pat myself on the back I am pretty decent on multiple codes). You don't have to serve any time. all you need to do is be able to read and know how to maneuver a code book. Then a 2 hour 50 question open book test and if you pass you are ICC certified for the area you tested in.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> So you did not fail.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 you can bet your a$$ on that, it has become such a PITA to file and get inspections and then to have to deal with non plumbing issues for a plumbing inspection is a big reason im not a fan of getting permits...its just become a new revenue stream for towns and villages....
$175.00 for a simple direct replacement 3 piece bathroom replacement...and several hours at the building dept...


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

GAN said:


> I can follow both train of thoughts.
> 
> I do agree why the heck is a "plumbing inspector" monitoring this. In Illinois in general by public act they require C.O. detectors within 15' of every sleeping room, for any dwelling that has gas appliances, wood burning equipment or an attached garage only, no matter when it was built.
> 
> ...



the towns and villages seem to do what THEY want and any laws allowing them or not allowing them doesnt make much of a difference..because bottom line you will lose if you challenge them....or they pass some quick resolution next political hack meeting and now a new ordinance is born to cover whatever they need...I wouldnt be surprised if you challenged the installing of smokes and co detectors that they wouldnt fine you till they re installed...
during my inspection the plumbing inspector was going to try and hold me personally responsible to make sure they got installed, and I wasnt having any of that, luckily the home owner was present and told the plumbing inspector he would have them installed by the end of the day, and when final inspection was done the plumbing inspector walked the whole house to make sure they were installed...
I can see the need for safety to have them installed but holding the trades hostage, that have nothing todo with installing smoke or co detectors complete BS....give the home owner a notice and bust their chops....its their house they are living in so they should be responsible, not the trades...and what happens if the home owner tells you to screw off they arent buying or installing them, now what happens when the job comes to a stand still because the town holds back permits or inspections because of it???


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

This thread came up at a good time. I’m officially working “full time” with my Master again. 

The Master he tried out failed miserably. Back call king, f’ed up a customer’s carpet, bad attitude... I got a very nice gift this year.

Back on topic of inspection, this new Master doesn’t have a contractors license, so he can’t pull a permit. He did a repipe on his own where the HO pulled a HO permit. Tee’s on their sides, 90s on their sides. Passed.

Health and safety! That is the most important! I’ve had my plumbing inspector stop a plumbing inspection over a window that was downsized to fit a tub surround. Permit hadn’t been pulled yet, and according to my plumbing inspector it wasn’t framed right per building code. They framed in the window the day before so we could install and get rough. We get 72 hours to pull permits. Turned out it was built to code.

My inspector slipped and told us basically he has to find flaws in other trades , even if it’s an 1950’s electrical box, original to the house... but no sticker! Bring it up to today’s code!


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

I get that towns want their buildings to be updated so they are worth more and their town seems nicer.


I also get that some really care about safety and not just taxing new work for income.


But quite frankly I think this really impedes a persons freedom and that I can not agree with. It's not like the middle class is flush with cash and can do these upgrades willy nilly. If I want to live in a home with knob and tube or no smoke detectors than that is my own damn business. If someone doesn't feel safe next to a house with old features than don't buy a house next to it!!!!!












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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> you can bet your a$$ on that, it has become such a PITA to file and get inspections and then to have to deal with non plumbing issues for a plumbing inspection is a big reason im not a fan of getting permits...its just become a new revenue stream for towns and villages....
> $175.00 for a simple direct replacement 3 piece bathroom replacement...and several hours at the building dept...


Permit for a water heater change out was $210.00. 

I’ll put the smoke detectors in for her, she’s in her 80’s and I don’t want her to have to find a handyman to do it.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Debo22 said:


> Permit for a water heater change out was $210.00.
> 
> I’ll put the smoke detectors in for her, she’s in her 80’s and I don’t want her to have to find a handyman to do it.





I take it they don't need to all be interconnected?


Installing simple smoke/co detectors is fine. I was under the impression they wanted the hardwired variety.












.













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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

skoronesa said:


> I take it they don't need to all be interconnected?
> 
> 
> Installing simple smoke/co detectors is fine. I was under the impression they wanted the hardwired variety.
> ...


Major remodels need smoke detectors to be hardwired and interconnected. They don’t expect you to hire an electrician and fish wire for a water heater change out.


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## jakewilcox (Sep 3, 2019)

As you guys have stated, the more trouble a permit is, the less likely anyone is to get them. I have found that they don’t add anything to the job. They just cost money. 

I had a huge argument (I really try not to do that with inspectors -it just makes life harder) about the fact that a tracer wire is NOT required for a steel (pvc coated) gas pipe running under ground. 

On the CO/smoke detector issue: one of the cities around here has gone nuts about it. So, one of my buddies just need a box of them in his truck and puts them up as an additional service item. Idk if I like that idea. But it’s one solution.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

jakewilcox said:


> As you guys have stated, the more trouble a permit is, the less likely anyone is to get them. I have found that they don’t add anything to the job. They just cost money.
> 
> I had a huge argument (I really try not to do that with inspectors -it just makes life harder) about the fact that a tracer wire is NOT required for a steel (pvc coated) gas pipe running under ground.
> 
> On the CO/smoke detector issue: one of the cities around here has gone nuts about it. So, one of my buddies just need a box of them in his truck and puts them up as an additional service item. Idk if I like that idea. But it’s one solution.


Speaking of underground gas pipe....

I haven’t looked at the code yet, neither has my Master...

Can you run track pipe or lightning strike underground?


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

OpenSights said:


> Speaking of underground gas pipe....
> 
> I haven’t looked at the code yet, neither has my Master...
> 
> Can you run track pipe or lightning strike underground?



I dont know for sure but im going to say no....I use to be able to run galvanized with all threaded joints tared for corrosion, now only the yellow poly pipe under ground, it will never corrode, the gas utility here are replacing all metallic gas lines under ground with the poly pipe..


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I dont know for sure but im going to say no....I use to be able to run galvanized with all threaded joints tared for corrosion, now only the yellow poly pipe under ground, it will never corrode, the gas utility here are replacing all metallic gas lines under ground with the poly pipe..


He paid the gas company for two gas meeters, one for his house and one for the poll bard. They only installed one commercial meter at his house, so his poll barn is still on LP.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

OpenSights said:


> He paid the gas company for two gas meeters, one for his house and one for the poll bard. They only installed one commercial meter at his house, so his poll barn is still on LP.



well upstate the land of do whatever, the local LP supplier buries bare copper tubing for that....what you can do and what is safe are 2 totally different issues..


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

jakewilcox said:


> As you guys have stated, the more trouble a permit is, the less likely anyone is to get them. I have found that they don’t add anything to the job. They just cost money.
> 
> I had a huge argument (I really try not to do that with inspectors -it just makes life harder) about the fact that a tracer wire is NOT required for a steel (pvc coated) gas pipe running under ground.
> 
> On the CO/smoke detector issue: one of the cities around here has gone nuts about it. So, one of my buddies just need a box of them in his truck and puts them up as an additional service item. Idk if I like that idea. But it’s one solution.







As someone who has to track pipe a lot I definitely think they should have a tracer wire, especially steel pipe, even if for no other reason that to be used as a proper ground to stop electrolytic corrosion. The problem with grounding both ends of a steel pipe is that it every cycle it conducts will strip some material and then redeposit it as rust. If the ac current has any dc bias which can be an issue than the pipe will either corrode quickly or buildup large nodules, especially at the exposed threads. I know often the tracer wire often isn't connected at all but some guys do and it helps with corrosion. 





It's such a pitd to track a pipe being used as a ground and is often impossible, especially in ground with other wires or high iron content. Sometimes I can disconnect one or two grounds temporarily but often I can't get all or any of them. Just takes one frickin phone line to phuck you.








.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I dont know for sure but im going to say no....I use to be able to run galvanized with all threaded joints tared for corrosion, now only the yellow poly pipe under ground, it will never corrode, the gas utility here are replacing all metallic gas lines under ground with the poly pipe..







Here it's either yellow plastic coated copper or the yellow pe pipe. Frankly I like the yellow pipe. It's pretty much the same as black pe waterline and will take several hundred psi. On long runs the cost of the stab fittings is made up for with how cheap the pipe is and the stab fittings we get are darn near bullet proof. Very difficult to insert and they have a triple o-ring seal. For a line that won't see more than 30psi that's overkill and I like it.






.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> As someone who has to track pipe a lot I definitely think they should have a tracer wire, especially steel pipe, even if for no other reason that to be used as a proper ground to stop electrolytic corrosion. The problem with grounding both ends of a steel pipe is that it every cycle it conducts will strip some material and then redeposit it as rust. If the ac current has any dc bias which can be an issue than the pipe will either corrode quickly or buildup large nodules, especially at the exposed threads. I know often the tracer wire often isn't connected at all but some guys do and it helps with corrosion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 grounding doesnt stop corrosion..you have to use a sacrificial anode just like the water heaters have, and the big zinc weights on boats..a tracer wire wont do dick...


its called Cathodic protection

*Description*

Cathodic protection is a technique used to control the corrosion of a metal surface by making it the cathode of an electrochemical cell. A simple method of protection connects the metal to be protected to a more easily corroded "sacrificial metal" to act as the anode. Wikipedia


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> grounding doesnt stop corrosion..you have to use a sacrificial anode just like the water heaters have, and the big zinc weights on boats..a tracer wire wont do dick...



I didn't say it would prevent ALL corrosion. I talked about how it could be used as a jumper wire when attached on both ends of the buried line.





skoronesa said:


> .._...they should have a tracer wire, especially steel pipe, even if for no other reason that to be used as a proper ground to stop *electrolytic corrosion.* ............_.






And then I went on to explain how stray current from the electrical system which would make it's way to the ground circuit which could cause that electrolytic corrosion.




But go ahead, ignore that specific point and instead pretend I was talking about all types of corrosion.




.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> I didn't say it would prevent ALL corrosion. I talked about how it could be used as a jumper wire when attached on both ends of the buried line.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


so tell me how a tracer wire will do ANYTHING to help prevent any corrosion...


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> so tell me how a tracer wire will do ANYTHING to help prevent any corrosion...





I will, right after you go read up on galvanic reactions and figure out what electrolytic action is because I am not explaining it to you like a first year apprentice.




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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Ouch!


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> I will, right after you go read up on galvanic reactions and figure out what electrolytic action is because I am not explaining it to you like a first year apprentice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


because you cant answer it, nothing new..so you want to cause it by wrapping copper to a galvanized pipe...its hard to argue wits with some one that comes unarmed like yourself...:vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> because you cant answer it, nothing new.._so you want to cause it by wrapping copper to a galvanized pipe_...its hard to argue wits with some one that comes unarmed like yourself...





Metal on metal in and of itself does not cause galvanic reaction. If I am unarmed you brought a gun missing a couple parts to a fist fight.








.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> Metal on metal in and of itself does not cause galvanic reaction. If I am unarmed you brought a gun missing a couple parts to a fist fight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you said you were connecting tracer to pipe, not me..I try not to hurt my hands, ill just stab you in the heart, much easier..


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> you said you were connecting tracer to pipe, not me..I try not to hurt my hands, ill just stab you in the heart, much easier..



I know I did.




You ever make a pickle battery?






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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> I know I did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I think I made a potato one, but that was back in grade school...
saline in the ground conducts electrical current and the proper way to protect buried steel lines is cathodic protection, hence why all the utilities are going to poly pipe..just eliminate the problem all together..


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I think I made a potato one, but that was back in grade school...
> saline in the ground conducts electrical current and the proper way to protect buried steel lines is cathodic protection, hence why all the utilities are going to poly pipe..just eliminate the problem all together..





Yes, saline and many other minerals along with water will create a solution that can carry electrons and worsen corrosion. Regardless of there being a galvanic potential or not you can still have electrolytic corrosion. I specifically noted that the exposed cut threads on galvanized pipe(which is coated with zinc for cathodic protection) will be the most susceptible to corrosion.


And even if the threads aren't touched until all of the zinc coating is gone we all know that the thin layer of zinc is worthless which is why galv is garbage.


Now if you have a scenario where a steel gas line runs from a tank, underground, into a regulator, and then to an appliance with all metal pipe and fittings being used along the way it will be grounded at the appliance. If that appliance has any sort of electrical issue that isn't serious enough to trip the breaker than both the neutral and the ground hooked to the gas line will carry current in relation to their resistance. 



Because though some say "Electricity takes the path of least resistance" this isn't totally true. Electricity takes all of the paths, the ones with least resistance see more current. Just like hooking two headlights off the same positive terminal on a battery. They can be hooked in parralell and still both conduct electricity.




*Now that we've determined that our steel pipe is charged with a voltage potential(alternating or direct, both will do), we can look at how it will suffer from electrolytic corrosion and galvanic corrosion.* There are different ways to deal with each. We'll start with the galvanic corrosion, our pickle. 



The pipe is charged like the steel nail in our pickle. The pickle also has a copper nail or bare wire inserted, but this can be replaced with any metal which is dissimilar from our steel pipe. It can even be another steel pipe or the metals in the dirt. As long as they aren't at the same galvanic potential one will be the anode and one will be the cathode. As you pointed out steel is usually the cathode because of it's place on the galvanic chart so often our anode will be a nearby copper gutter or grounding rod. The cathode will be consumed while the anode may gain material, this is how electroplating works, that is electrolytic corrosion caused by a galvanic potential.



Now we can talk about the electrolytic corrosion aspect. Galvanic corrosion comes from the metals themselves producing a charge. Electrolytic corrosion comes from a charge being placed on two metals with an electrolytic solution(wet dirt) between them. If the steel pipe has a potential, and the copper grounding rod(or any other anode) also has a potential than we will get electrolytic corrosion happening. *If we use the tracer wire to connect them and make them the same potential(mostly) than we can limit the electrolytic corrosion.*

As you can see galvanic and electrolytic corrosion are closely linked but are not the same.

There's your 1st year apprentice explanation.

.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I think I made a potato one, but that was back in grade school...
> saline in the ground conducts electrical current and the proper way to protect buried steel lines is cathodic protection, hence why all the utilities are going to poly pipe..just eliminate the problem all together..





The short answer is that the pipe is one electrode and something else in the earth will be the other electrode. While they will make a galvanic reaction and the pipe will likely suffer _galvanic corrosion_ they both may also be at different voltage potentials and if we connect them with the tracer wire than we can stop that voltage potential and limit _electrolytic corrosion_.




*If it makes you feel better I used to prototype electrical devices.*






.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> The short answer is that the pipe is one electrode and something else in the earth will be the other electrode. While they will make a galvanic reaction and the pipe will likely suffer _galvanic corrosion_ they both may also be at different voltage potentials and if we connect them with the tracer wire than we can stop that voltage potential and limit _electrolytic corrosion_.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you mean they gave you shock treatment at the mental hospital....:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> you mean they gave you shock treatment at the mental hospital....:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:





Gotta change the subject? Can't even man up and admit when I have made a good point?






.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> Gotta change the subject? Can't even man up and admit when I have made a good point?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didnt even read that freaking book you posted..too late. maybe tomorrow..


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I didnt even read that freaking book you posted..too late. maybe tomorrow..





I gave you a short answer too  I know you have trouble reading.






.


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## jakewilcox (Sep 3, 2019)

Wow. I’m not gonna go in to cathodic protection or anodic protection; it sounds like you guys have no lack of opinion on it. 

Tracer wires aren’t required for metallic pipe (around here anyway). If you use PE with with stab fittings or use the fusion welded stuff you have to have a tracer (and in most circumstances, detectable burial tape). 

Btw an older plumber told me that the burial tape worked with divining rods. So yeah. There’s that too. 😜


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

jakewilcox said:


> Wow. I’m not gonna go in to cathodic protection or anodic protection; it sounds like you guys have no lack of opinion on it.
> 
> Tracer wires aren’t required for metallic pipe (around here anyway). If you use PE with with stab fittings or use the fusion welded stuff you have to have a tracer (and in most circumstances, detectable burial tape).
> 
> Btw an older plumber told me that the burial tape worked with divining rods. So yeah. There’s that too. 😜



any buried line NEEDS caution tape about a foot above it....steel lines no tracer, poly pipe needs tracer line....the short and sweet of it..


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## asapmarty (Nov 19, 2012)

What code is adopted in your jurisdiction? such as IPC etc.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

asapmarty said:


> What code is adopted in your jurisdiction? such as IPC etc.


who? you have to quote who your asking the question to..


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

Back in the late 70's I often ran sch 40 PVC gas pipe with a tracer wire
it was required to be a min. of 18" deep, :biggrin:


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