# Right call?



## joeplumber85 (Jul 16, 2012)

Got called out to a clogged toilet the other day.

I show up, toilet flushes fine, so I throw a soild amount of toilet paper down and it still flushes fine. Shove the augur thru with complete ease. So I assume toilet isn't the issue.

Pull off a 3" cleanout behind toilet and throw the camera thru about 45 feet, and absolutely nothing. And it's a long straight run with absolutely no offsets at all until it hit's outside sewer.

Anyway, I pull back the camera and while it's sitting just at the base of the 3" stack, about 1-2 feet from toilet trap arm connection, I flush the toilet. Water comes rushing UPstream towards the stack, rises to about 1/2 way up the pipe and then slowly finds it's way back downstream.

At this point, I do a bit more diagnostic work to make sure I'm right, and then inform the client that I believe the CORRECT solution is to redo the piping under the floor, and I give him the quote.

Right call? Office seems to be suggesting I should of just tried to sell a new toilet.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Screw the office, they should stick to their job. .. Your the one in the field.. You did what you think thought was right. 

With what you described I think you did the right thing.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Right call.


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

Sounds right from this armchair.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

joeplumber85 said:


> Anyway, I pull back the camera and while it's sitting just at the base of the 3" stack, about 1-2 feet from toilet trap arm connection, I flush the toilet. Water comes rushing UPstream towards the stack, rises to about 1/2 way up the pipe and then slowly finds it's way back downstream.
> 
> Right call? Office seems to be suggesting I should of just tried to sell a new toilet.



How did the toilet tie in? How often does this problem occur? Did you try to duplicate and observe this flush again with tissue?

It's normal to have some water wash back when dropping into an horizontal line, even when coming through a combination. I've had many horizontal clean outs on slab houses spit some water out when the clean out is off and the toilet is being flushed.

I don't think it is necessarily a problem needing attention at all. It may have been too much tissue in the toilet and it cleared itself.


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## SHAUN C (Feb 16, 2011)

Sounds like a belly in the line maybe? Did you notice any standing water when you ran the camera?


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## joeplumber85 (Jul 16, 2012)

The toilet tied in about 1-2 feet of the base of the stack which serves the bathroom+ of the suite upstairs, most likely through a Tee instead of a Wye. By code it is too close to the base of the soil&waste stack, and given the proximity I highly doubt they vented it at all.

I duplicated several times just to make sure I wasn't missing anything, and with each flush the piping upstream of the toilet connection would fill up about 1/2 way before slowly settling down. According to the client, this toilet has been clogging regularly for months now and even when they attempt to use a toilet auger it will not drain.

My conclusion was that the connection to the main building drain was through a Tee instead of a Wye and minimum grade was likely not achieved.

The connection from the building drain to the actual floor flange is less than 2 feet, so my belief is that when "solids" are being flushed instead of flowing down the drain they hit that Tee and like the water just slowly settle down to the bottom of the pipe and are creating clogging issues. Client says eventually the clog seems to go away, which most likely occurs after the upstairs toilet is flushed and the force pushes everything further down the building drain.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

If you know there is a problem like


> By code it is too close to the base of the soil&waste stack,


 then you didn't need to ask the question as to whether or not you made the right call regarding selling a toilet after all, did you?


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## joeplumber85 (Jul 16, 2012)

SHAUN C said:


> Sounds like a belly in the line maybe? Did you notice any standing water when you ran the camera?


No standing water anywhere in the main building drain, and no issue with anything else draining, including the adjacent bathtub. There was some standing water sitting out in the city sewer but that's common and with no issues anywhere else, I didn't want to go that route.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

You'd be surprised at what you can determine about drain line carry with a camera and a couple of cans of cheap dog food and ten sheets of toilet paper.


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## joeplumber85 (Jul 16, 2012)

ChrisConnor said:


> If you know there is a problem like then you didn't need to ask the question as to whether or not you made the right call regarding selling a toilet after all, did you?


The entire house smelled like piss.
The tub spout was upside down leaking out water.
There was a 3" 90 about head height coming out from the ceiling and going into the wall.
The water supply for the toilet came out on a 45* angle about 1 foot to the RIGHT of the toilet.
The toilet itself was covered in piss, which I cleaned up and then homeowner did for me again after I ran out to the van for a minute.

Best part though was the wall built for the tub tile which extended about 2/3rd in front of the window that they didn't bother removing/moving when putting the bathroom in.

Bottom line though, client didn't like answer, and is questioning it(not the first time) which makes the office question me. I know, given the state of the home, they wanted a less expensive answer from me for the toilet issues, and I could of made a life a lot easier on myself in the short term anyway by just suggested a more powerful toilet.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

joeplumber85 said:


> The entire house smelled like piss.
> The tub spout was upside down leaking out water.
> There was a 3" 90 about head height coming out from the ceiling and going into the wall.
> The water supply for the toilet came out on a 45* angle about 1 foot to the RIGHT of the toilet.
> ...


In better times, I would have bailed in the first minute. People like that are seriously screwed up and will make your life miserable.

If you collected for the first call and the check cleared, cut the ho loose.
If the office gives you trouble, have them meet you at the house.
If the office stills gives you crap, find another job.


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## damnplumber (Jan 22, 2012)

How old is the house and was this problem as old as the house


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## joeplumber85 (Jul 16, 2012)

Estimate the house at 30-40 years old, given the area, appearance, and structure style. The bathroom with the issues however, is obviously an addition.

HO says he bought post-reno, and the toilet problems started 2 months ago.

I take HO provided details under consideration but do not consider them gospel.

Could be the 3" stack wasn't supported under the ground and it settled lower 2 months ago and the lesser grade is adding to the issue, or maybe the HO just took notice a couple months ago, or they are just lying in hopes someone else in the company will come give a free second opinion.

Without the camera I probably would of been inclined to suggest a new toilet, buti did have a camera and since we guarantee our toilets against clogs for 2 years, I'll be content if someone else sells the toilet so they can deal with the callbacks.


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

Good call. Forethought saved you future headaches.
If the ho pissed on the wc after you cleaned it, as a boss I would advise you to get out of there. Good riddance.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I am not quite clear with which toilet you flushed. if the second floor it sounds like hydraulic jump at the base of the stack and is normal. Your solution is still the right call.

You still have not addressed the toilet stoppage. The toilet stoppage cleared itself of a paper stoppage in the trap. You may want to address it at the very least verbally and then put a recommendation on your paperwork. When the toilet stops up again you will have at least explained why.


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## The bear (Sep 27, 2012)

ChrisConnor said:


> You'd be surprised at what you can determine about drain line carry with a camera and a couple of cans of cheap dog food and ten sheets of toilet paper.


The idea of using cheap dog food as waste is brilliant.I always use paper to determine drain line carry but never tried dog food for waste. Best part of PZ is the experiences we share. Thanks:thumbup:


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## joeplumber85 (Jul 16, 2012)

Richard Hilliard said:


> I am not quite clear with which toilet you flushed. if the second floor it sounds like hydraulic jump at the base of the stack and is normal. Your solution is still the right call.
> 
> You still have not addressed the toilet stoppage. The toilet stoppage cleared itself of a paper stoppage in the trap. You may want to address it at the very least verbally and then put a recommendation on your paperwork. When the toilet stops up again you will have at least explained why.


The toilet in question is on the ground floor, the second floor toilet belongs to the upstairs tenant and I did not have access to their suite, nor did I feel compelled to investigate it. 

Not sure what you are referring to with regards to addressing the toilet stoppage. Upon my arrival there was no stoppage, despite this I used the auger anyway and it went through with the greatest of ease. According to the HO, when it does clog he uses his own auger and it will not clear the clog, and yet, according to the HO, the basin (connected about 2 feet downstream of toilet) still drains fine.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

joeplumber85 said:


> The toilet in question is on the ground floor, the second floor toilet belongs to the upstairs tenant and I did not have access to their suite, nor did I feel compelled to investigate it.
> 
> Not sure what you are referring to with regards to addressing the toilet stoppage. Upon my arrival there was no stoppage, despite this I used the auger anyway and it went through with the greatest of ease. According to the HO, when it does clog he uses his own auger and it will not clear the clog, and yet, according to the HO, the basin (connected about 2 feet downstream of toilet) still drains fine.


 
What did they do when it has clogged in the past? Tenant has an a auger and that suggests the toilet stops up frequently. The problem is in the toilet. I would also want to see the combo as it sounds like it is a short sweep combo and that will explain why water backs into the horizontal line close to the cleanout. Years ago combo's came in 2 different lengths.1 was equal to a wye and 1/8 bend in length the other had much shorter sweep less than a st 1/8 bend into a wye.

Your assessment of the drain line indicates the drain line is clear and no issues with the drain and that points to the toilet again.

How long has the tenant lived there? Is he or she on meds? How often does the toilet stop up? What kind of foods do they eat? My money s the tenant is new and has difficulty with his or her dumps due to meds/drugs.

I have a difficult time with an inspector missing a tee on its back. I know they are not perfect however they do not miss obvious code infractions like that. Most of the time my experience with inspectors mistakes happen with Fixture units and size of the pipe.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

joeplumber85 said:


> Got called out to a clogged toilet the other day.
> 
> I show up, toilet flushes fine, so I throw a soild amount of toilet paper down and it still flushes fine. Shove the augur thru with complete ease. So I assume toilet isn't the issue.
> 
> ...


If water is not standing in the piping then it has fall so that is correct. Did you run your closet auger in with the camera in the line to insure tee is correctly oriented? If tee is correct it sounds to me like a new toilet is needed. Seeing a line backwash a little when toilet is flushed is perfectly normal and almost always observed.


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## joeplumber85 (Jul 16, 2012)

Richard Hilliard said:


> What did they do when it has clogged in the past? Tenant has an a auger and that suggests the toilet stops up frequently. The problem is in the toilet. I would also want to see the combo as it sounds like it is a short sweep combo and that will explain why water backs into the horizontal line close to the cleanout. Years ago combo's came in 2 different lengths.1 was equal to a wye and 1/8 bend in length the other had much shorter sweep less than a st 1/8 bend into a wye.
> 
> I have a difficult time with an inspector missing a tee on its back. I know they are not perfect however they do not miss obvious code infractions like that. Most of the time my experience with inspectors mistakes happen with Fixture units and size of the pipe.


I suspect the toilet is not aiding the issue however with the problem being intermittent, and an auger not being able to deal with the blockage tells me that the issue lies beyond the toilet. I mean if it were just large chunks of stool blocking the p-trap, wouldn't the auger either knock them loose or atleast be obstructed by them?

As far as the inspectors go, I can assure you, no inspection was ever done here. If it was, they would of failed it for lack of ventilation, improper venting, having a connection too close to a soil & waste stack and my guess for using a sanitary-tee on it's side.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

joeplumber85 said:


> I suspect the toilet is not aiding the issue however with the problem being intermittent, and an auger not being able to deal with the blockage tells me that the issue lies beyond the toilet. I mean if it were just large chunks of stool blocking the p-trap, wouldn't the auger either knock them loose or atleast be obstructed by them?
> 
> As far as the inspectors go, I can assure you, no inspection was ever done here. If it was, they would of failed it for lack of ventilation, improper venting, having a connection too close to a soil & waste stack and my guess for using a sanitary-tee on it's side.


 
You're trusting the tenant ? That is the worst thing to do. How do you explain the stoppage disappearing? Not enough head to clear a stoppage in the line and not leave evidence and that is proved by finding nothing in the drain line via your camera inspection. There would have been some debris in the line as the water would have traveled faster than the waste. You do not have to accept that it is the toilet. Everything you have stated points in that direction. With the 1.6 wc's you want the vent as close as you can get it.



The only way to assure me is to see if a permit was pulled and to go back and see how many bathrooms the home had originally. Otherwise it is an assumption. I thought it was a best guess if it was a tee and not known for sure? Another question I have is it has been working for a very long time and recently has become an issue. This leads me back to the tenant again and that particular toilet. Go back and ask the tenant more questions and specifically the questions I posed. I am with the shop on this one.

The reasons there are issues with the solution, it is a guess, I think or I guess it is this verse I know it is this that is causing the problem.


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

Good call on the re-pipe, boss should stand behind you. Customer should appreciate your insight and get a 2nd opinion, sounds costly to a HO. But the boss should trust your judgement after how you described it here.


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## phishfood (Nov 18, 2012)

CoolCanuck, an intro is requested from all new members, detailing years experience, certifications, types of plumbing that you have done, etc.


Paging rj, paging rj.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Coolcanuck said:


> Good call on the re-pipe, boss should stand behind you. Customer should appreciate your insight and get a 2nd opinion, sounds costly to a HO. But the boss should trust your judgement after how you described it here.


 
Explain why the home owner needs to redo the sanitary system. When there is no debris in the line, no way of discerning what was stopping the toilet from working. We do not even know if the lavatory or tub was affected so we cannot say a bathroom group was affected. To top it off the stoppage mysteriously disappeared leaving no evidence with a camera inspection of the building drain. We have a tenant that has his own auger for toilet stoppages. We know this has just started to happen and the building is 30-40 years old.


We do not know how often this has happened in the past, we do not know what they did to take care of the problem in the past, we do not know if this just started happening since the tenant moved in. We do not know if the tenant has a funky diet or on meds to affect his waste product and stop up the toilet. We do not know if the tenants auger went through the toilet stoppage but did not clear it. We think there is a tee laid on its back but we do not know that for sure. We do not know what type toilet is existing. Due to the building drain being clear should tell us there is no back pitch. We know the upstairs bathroom was not tested to see if that is the problem. A lot of unknowns and we are diagnosing a solution without the proper information.

I feel there is more to the story that is not being told or there are too many unknowns.


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

A duck is a duck, start with the basics and bring it up to code. If everything is done wrong above ground, camera indicates tie-ins within 5 feet of the base, who knows what arrangements or grading is under the slab. If the HO looks into permits and there is none, they may be able to go after the previous owners if done quick enough.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Coolcanuck said:


> A duck is a duck, start with the basics and bring it up to code. If everything is done wrong above ground, camera indicates tie-ins within 5 feet of the base, who knows what arrangements or grading is under the slab. If the HO looks into permits and there is none, they may be able to go after the previous owners if done quick enough.


 
Trial and Error? What to do when the same thing happens after your done? Ooops?

There are lots of things not up to code today mainly due to codes changing over time. They become grandfathered until it is remodeled or altered.

I am not sure the camera said anything was wrong. I think it is a Tee does not give me reassurance that it is a Tee. A string was not tied to the camera to verify the type fitting.


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

The camera did indicate a tie-in within 1-2 feet at the base of the stack. This would create all kinds of turbulence down there and leave solids in the branch drain. It would also pull solids out. If it is a new addition to the building drain, this is nothing new in code. Check the permits.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Coolcanuck said:


> The camera did indicate a tie-in within 1-2 feet at the base of the stack. This would create all kinds of turbulence down there and leave solids in the branch drain. It would also pull solids out. If it is a new addition to the building drain, this is nothing new in code. Check the permits.


 
It is a combo with a cleanout attached. The camera showed no debris in the line. Cannot make a determination from the information given. Everything is a reach without facts.

Said to check permits a long time ago.


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

Just curious did you camera the toilet trap? I only ask because in the past have had these mystery toilet clogs that when I arrived where not clogged but then they have called back saying it's clogged again. I have found things like catheter straws, cocktail straws, army men etc in the trap that hold debris then flush out.


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## joeplumber85 (Jul 16, 2012)

Richard Hilliard said:


> It is a combo with a cleanout attached. The camera showed no debris in the line. Cannot make a determination from the information given. Everything is a reach without facts.
> 
> Said to check permits a long time ago.


It is *NOT* a combo with clean-out attached, not sure where that assumption came from.

The clean-out I used to access the drain line was a line clean-out located about 12" to centre above the finished floor behind the toilet. The stack proceeds downwards into the floor before (2) 45* fittings direct the piping horizontal & southbound. About 2 feet south of the base of stack is where the toilet connects, then another couple feet down is the basin connection. The branch continues south about 40-45 feet before connecting to the main sewer.

The _facts_ I have are that:
a) When the toilet is flushed, the 2 feet of piping from the fitting (tee?wye?tee-wye?) to the base of the stack are filled roughly 1/2 way up with water for roughly 5-8 seconds before slowly draining downstream.
b) The toilet itself takes a chunk of waste thru it's p-trap with no issue.
c) The distance between the base of the stack and the connection to the water closet trap-arm is too close and a violation of code due to the high head pressure that occurs in that area. 
d) The piping downstream of the water closet connection runs straight and clean for about 40-45 feet with no indicators of blockages before tying into the city sewer.

According to the homeowner:
a) The toilet has been clogging more frequently over the last few months.
b) He owns & knows how to use a toilet auger and has been unable to unclog the toilet when flushing becomes difficult.

My subjective opinions are:
a) An relatively new illegal suite in an area where permits for renovations are few and far between, and that features numerous *obvious* plumbing code violations, did not receive an inspection.
b) Given the distance between the water closet flange, and where it connects to the building drain, there is not enough room to place a fitting in for a vent, nor given the lay-out of the bathroom is there any indication a vent could/would be run up the exterior wall.
c) The homeowner's indication that the clogging has been occurring more lately indicates a possible toilet issue, while his inability to auger it along with all the other findings indicates a piping issue.

Basically, I believe solid waste is just settling at a Tee fitting that connects the water closet trap arm to the building drain and that is leading to blockages and flushing issues. The problem appears to correct itself when the upstairs bathroom feeding the stack is used and generates enough head pressure to displace the debris sitting at the tee. This belief is based on facts, HO provided information and personal opinion.

I do realize it may seem to some like a bit of a stretch, but just selling a new toilet wouldn't resolve the piping issues, would be going against the evidence and would include telling the HO they are lying or incompetent about their use of the auger. Plus, they currently have a 3.5g flush, so moving to a modern 1.6g flush may actually increase their problems...Oops.


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