# How many Pumps



## OldSchool

What do you think the minimum number of pumps is needed to do Hydronic heating


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## Scott K

Depends....


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## OldSchool

It doesn't depend there is a right answer


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## futz

OldSchool said:


> It doesn't depend there is a right answer


Ya, the old, old, old fashioned way with no pumps at all. Gravity system. Nobody does it that way anymore though.  I think most modern boilers wouldn't tolerate the low flow without trying to jump out of the mechanical room. :laughing:


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## njoy plumbing

futz said:


> Ya, the old, old, old fashioned way with no pumps at all. Gravity system. Nobody does it that way anymore though.  I think most modern boilers wouldn't tolerate the low flow without trying to jump out of the mechanical room. :laughing:


 Thank you!:thumbsup:


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## OldSchool

futz said:


> Ya, the old, old, old fashioned way with no pumps at all. Gravity system. Nobody does it that way anymore though.  I think most modern boilers wouldn't tolerate the low flow without trying to jump out of the mechanical room. :laughing:


Actually a modulating condensing boiler would be more efficient


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## OldSchool

futz said:


> Ya, the old, old, old fashioned way with no pumps at all. Gravity system. :laughing:


Congrats futz ...you got the right answer :thumbup:


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## OldSchool

Bump this thread ....

This subject seems to be needed to be discussed again


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## Airgap

0 pumps...One circulator per loop doesn't hurt.....


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## rjbphd

futz said:


> Ya, the old, old, old fashioned way with no pumps at all. Gravity system. Nobody does it that way anymore though.  I think most modern boilers wouldn't tolerate the low flow without trying to jump out of the mechanical room. :laughing:


I still do gravity hydronic heat!


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## rjbphd

Airgap said:


> 0 pumps...One circulator per loop doesn't hurt.....


If that's the case, you are over pumping!!


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## OldSchool

futz said:


> Ya, the old, old, old fashioned way with no pumps at all. Gravity system. Nobody does it that way anymore though.  I think most modern boilers wouldn't tolerate the low flow without trying to jump out of the mechanical room. :laughing:


That my be true as now adays most boilers are considered low mass high BTU boilers...

Back then the boilers were all high mass ranging from low to high BTU


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## Airgap

rjbphd said:


> if that's the case, you are over pumping!!


twss...


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## AkonJakson

*Hydronic heating*

According to me.. Two


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## phishfood

You are going to post two intros?


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## rjbphd

AkonJakson said:


> According to me.. Two


Ya think ya gonna sneak in here without posting a full proper intro??? Its over 2 times you been requested.. do it before its gets worst.


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## alberteh

newbie here but doesn't it go something like "one circulator for the primary loop and one for each loop coming off of it" for a minimum of two? of course this is for a modern high efficient boiler with a lot of restriction through the boiler...


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## OldSchool

alberteh said:


> newbie here but doesn't it go something like "one circulator for the primary loop and one for each loop coming off of it" for a minimum of two? of course this is for a modern high efficient boiler with a lot of restriction through the boiler...


Most of what the guys are trying to accomplish with pumps could easily be done with monoflow tees


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## Gettinit

OldSchool said:


> Most of what the guys are trying to accomplish with pumps could easily be done with monoflow tees


To go along with their over-sized pumps.


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## OldSchool

Gettinit said:


> To go along with their over-sized pumps.


You know .., I have seen systems where other guys have put in so many pumps in a small system it's crazy ... 

One we were doing the plumbing and another company had the heating ... The house was 2,000 sqft and they had 13 pumps in total ..I just shook my head ...


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## izzyduke

OldSchool said:


> It doesn't depend there is a right answer


it dosent depend on the location of the boiler? for this gravity feed (old school boiler of yours ) if boiler is fed from second floor can it feed fourth floor?.. w/o pumps or magic?


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## OldSchool

izzyduke said:


> it dosent depend on the location of the boiler? for this gravity feed (old school boiler of yours ) if boiler is on second floor can it feed fourth floor?.. w/o pumps or magic?


Any thing higher than the boiler itself ...

It's called convection ...

Of coarse piping has to be installed with grade for this to work ..


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## izzyduke

OldSchool said:


> Any thing higher than the boiler itself ...
> 
> It's called convection ...
> 
> Of coarse piping has to be installed with grade for this to work ..


 
Thats one busy boiler if you ask me. kinda like the hot pots in yellowstone..(get me the hell outa here)!!


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## OldSchool

izzyduke said:


> Thats one busy boiler if you ask me. kinda like the hot pots in yellowstone..(get me the hell outa here)!!


I can see you are very young and don't have much knowledge of earlier boiler system ...

Most system ... Even hot air furnace were all designed by convection ..

But this is before your time ..


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## nhmaster3015

We still service about a half dozen gravity systems. I'm a zone valve fan myself. 
Also a huge fan of VFD smart pumps especially for radiant jobs. These young kids missed the glory years of heating when boilers were so large you could set a dining room table and 6 chairs in the firebox. Passages so wide you could throw a cat clean through and never touch the sides.


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## OldSchool

nhmaster3015 said:


> We still service about a half dozen gravity systems. I'm a zone valve fan myself.
> Also a huge fan of VFD smart pumps especially for radiant jobs. These young kids missed the glory years of heating when boilers were so large you could set a dining room table and 6 chairs in the firebox. Passages so wide you could throw a cat clean through and never touch the sides.


That's the thing now adays everybody wants something automatic ... Can't even change the channel with out a remote .


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## Epox

OldSchool said:


> That's the thing now adays everybody wants something automatic ... Can't even change the channel with out a remote .


Hey that hurt!


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## wyplumber

How about a pump on supply side and a pump on return lines and a pump mounted to boiler to pull water into boiler when flow switch tells it to I'll have to Take some Pics of the mess an engineer made of this job 3 hp pump on supply side 1/6hp on return side and 2hp pump to pull water into boiler set up with two parallel boilers Each has 2hp pump on each boiler 2 3 hp pumps are on supply side but one is just a back up


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## rjbphd

wyplumber said:


> How about a pump on supply side and a pump on return lines and a pump mounted to boiler to pull water into boiler when flow switch tells it to I'll have to Take some Pics of the mess an engineer made of this job 3 hp pump on supply side 1/6hp on return side and 2hp pump to pull water into boiler set up with two parallel boilers Each has 2hp pump on each boiler 2 3 hp pumps are on supply side but one is just a back up


Huh????? I got dizzy reading this?? Pixs pls..


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## mcmulld

*Wow!!*



OldSchool said:


> You know .., I have seen systems where other guys have put in so many pumps in a small system it's crazy ...
> 
> One we were doing the plumbing and another company had the heating ... The house was 2,000 sqft and they had 13 pumps in total ..I just shook my head ...


13 Pumps?!? What ever happened to "keep it simple stupid" and keep it service friendly!


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## wyplumber

Sorry rbj got to typing and realized I was rambling any way it is a complete mess I'll try to get pics Tomorrow meeting with owners of the nursing home to give them price for a real fix lol they have out going temps of 180 return temps of 175 and no heat in the actual building the pics with explain why


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## OldSchool

wyplumber said:


> Sorry rbj got to typing and realized I was rambling any way it is a complete mess I'll try to get pics Tomorrow meeting with owners of the nursing home to give them price for a real fix lol they have out going temps of 180 return temps of 175 and no heat in the actual building the pics with explain why


Do they have a bypass on this system ?


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## rjbphd

OldSchool said:


> Do they have a bypass on this system ?


Must've.. bypass working too good with one radatior and 5 degrees delta T..


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## OldSchool

rjbphd said:


> Must've.. bypass working too good with one radatior and 5 degrees delta T..


That's my thoughts ...


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## rjbphd

rjbphd said:


> Must've.. bypass working too good with one radatior and 5 degrees delta T..


Sorry, fellow plumbers..' Delta T' have nothing to do with the Delta faucets..


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Dha. It's change in temp / heat transfer !!!


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## wyplumber

You shall see the joy of this mech room tomorrow when I take some pics try not to die of laughter when you see it makes me smile all the time when I think of the work we are going to get from it


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## ZL700

OldSchool said:


> I can see you are very young and don't have much knowledge of earlier boiler system ...
> 
> Most system ... Even hot air furnace were all designed by convection ..
> 
> But this is before your time ..


Convection is the heat transfer via fluids. 

Gravity furnaces transfers heat by conduction not convection.


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## rjbphd

ZL700 said:


> Convection is the heat transfer via fluids.
> 
> Gravity furnaces transfers heat by conduction not convection.


I think its the other way around..


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## dplumb

Another question to add to this is pump sizing. I swear nobody sizes pumps anymore. Everyone seems to think that a Taco 007 is just a universal pump for all applications. At least it seems that way around here.


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## OldSchool

rjbphd said:


> I think its the other way around..


And I though he was an engineer


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## OldSchool

ZL700 said:


> Convection is the heat transfer via fluids.
> 
> Gravity furnaces transfers heat by conduction not convection.


So you did that back wards ...

Even though conduction is the method of heat transfer ... The flow which this thread is about is convection ... 

Hot rises naturally and cold drops naturally ...

This natural occurrence is utilized in both those systems ..


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## RealLivePlumber

So, now we have to call convectors conductors. 

And conductors, maybe gutters? 

And train conductors, drivers? 

im all effed up now.


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## MarkToo

RealLivePlumber said:


> And train conductors, drivers?
> 
> im all effed up now.



No, they're called engineers. Or, maybe I've got that backwards. Some of the drawings I've worked from may have been done by train conductors.


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## OldSchool

For ZL700

Convection is the concerted, collective movement of ensembles of molecules within fluids (e.g., liquids, gases) and rheids. Convection of mass cannot take place in solids, since neither bulk current flows nor significant diffusion can take place in solids. Diffusion of heat can take place in solids, but is referred to separately in that case as heat conduction. A good model for convection is when you take a heat source (e.g. Bunsen burner) and place it at any side of a glass full of a liquid, you then can feel the different levels of heat in the glass.

Convective heat transfer is one of the major modes of heat transfer and convection is also a major mode of mass transfer in fluids. Convective heat and mass transfer take place through both diffusion – the random Brownian motion of individual particles in the fluid – and by advection, in which matter or heat is transported by the larger-scale motion of currents in the fluid. In the context of heat and mass transfer, the term "convection" is used to refer to the sum of advective and diffusive transfer.[1] Note that in common use the term convection may refer loosely to heat transfer by convection, as opposed to mass transfer by convection, or the convection process in general. Sometimes "convection" is even used to refer specifically to "free heat convection" (natural heat convection), as opposed to forced heat convection. However, in mechanics the correct use of the word is the general sense, and different types of convection should be properly qualified for clarity.

Convection can be qualified in terms of being natural, forced, gravitational, granular, or thermomagnetic. It may also be said to be due to combustion, capillary action, or Marangoni and Weissenberg effects. Due to its role in heat transfer, natural convection plays a role in the structure of Earth's atmosphere, its oceans, and its mantle. Discrete convective cells in the atmosphere can be seen as clouds, with stronger convection resulting in thunderstorms. Natural convection also plays a role in stellar physics.


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## Airgap

MarkToo said:


> No, they're called engineers. Or, maybe I've got that backwards. Some of the drawings I've worked from may have been done by train conductors.


Gold Jerry! Gold!


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## MarkToo

Airgap said:


> Gold Jerry! Gold!


Yeah well, since my level of technical knowledge is often limited, I make up for it by trying to be the class clown.



Hey look over there!


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## Airgap

MarkToo said:


> Yeah well, since my level of technical knowledge is often limited, I make up for it by trying to be the class clown.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey look over there!


I've been described the same way....


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## ZL700

*No*

Convective heat transfer, often referred to simply as convection, is the transfer of heat from one place to another by the movement of fluids. Convection is usually the dominant form of heat transfer in liquids and gases. Although often discussed as a distinct method of heat transfer, convective heat transfer involves the combined processes of conduction (heat diffusion) and advection (heat transfer by bulk fluid flow).
Baseboard, radiation, whatever is convection and conduction

*The point was gravity furnaces do not work by convection*

Keep digging your way out :whistling2:


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## OldSchool

ZL700 said:


> Convective heat transfer, often referred to simply as convection, is the transfer of heat from one place to another by the movement of fluids. Convection is usually the dominant form of heat transfer in liquids and gases. Although often discussed as a distinct method of heat transfer, convective heat transfer involves the combined processes of conduction (heat diffusion) and advection (heat transfer by bulk fluid flow).
> Baseboard, radiation, whatever is convection and conduction
> 
> The point was gravity furnaces do not work by convection
> 
> Keep digging your way out :whistling2:


Suggest reading several post back that I posted for you ...


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## newyorkcity

*?*



ZL700 said:


> Convective heat transfer, often referred to simply as convection, is the transfer of heat from one place to another by the movement of fluids. Convection is usually the dominant form of heat transfer in liquids and gases. Although often discussed as a distinct method of heat transfer, convective heat transfer involves the combined processes of conduction (heat diffusion) and advection (heat transfer by bulk fluid flow).
> Baseboard, radiation, whatever is convection and conduction
> 
> *The point was gravity furnaces do not work by convection*
> 
> Keep digging your way out :whistling2:


What is a gravity furnace?


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## rjbphd

newyorkcity said:


> What is a gravity furnace?


Old timer furnace held down by gravity air.. gravity boiler is held down with gravity water.. 
Is that a gong I'm hearing???


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## newyorkcity

*more like this*


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## OldSchool

ZL700 said:


> The point was gravity furnaces do not work by convection
> 
> Keep digging your way out :whistling2:


Convection is the direct result of gravity ... So how can you say it does not work by convection...


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## pipes

MarkToo said:


> No, they're called engineers. Or, maybe I've got that backwards. Some of the drawings I've worked from may have been done by train conductors.


:laughing::laughing: One of the best lines I have read here.


Gotta go with the Old guy on this one, let’s keep it simple, 
Convection – transfer of heat by way of a medium (air or water)
Conduction- transfer of heat through contact
Radiant- transfer of heat through light rays 

To be even more confusing and nit picky, all three are happening in that gravity furnace.:whistling2:


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## OldSchool

pipes said:


> :laughing::laughing: One of the best lines I have read here.
> 
> Gotta go with the Old guy on this one, let&#146;s keep it simple,
> Convection &#150; transfer of heat by way of a medium (air or water)
> Conduction- transfer of heat through contact
> Radiant- transfer of heat through light rays
> 
> To be even more confusing and nit picky, all three are happening in that gravity furnace.:whistling2:


Yes it's all happening ... But only one is the cause of circulation with out a pump or fan


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## izzyduke

OldSchool said:


> I can see you are very young and don't have much knowledge of earlier boiler system ...
> 
> Most system ... Even hot air furnace were all designed by convection ..
> 
> But this is before your time ..


 i guess your right. i get how it could work on a fin tube type situation but not a multi floor heating loop.


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## rjbphd

izzyduke said:


> i guess your right. i get how it could work on a fin tube type situation but not a multi floor heating loop.


So tell us newbies how do the multi floor heating loop works??


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## theplumbinator

Funny we are talking about gravity hot water. The other day I want to a 100 year old house with a pipe pouring water out of the side wall up near the attic. I was like what the hell could that be? So I went up into the attic, started digging around and found this big metal tank with a pipe going through the wall to outside. Turns out the house at one time had a gravity system and had been converted to pump with a boiler change somewhere through the years. They never removed the tank and the valve that was turned off to it had failed finally. Filled the tank up and started overflowing out the side of the house into the driveway and out to the street making everything into an ice skating rink. So i cut the tank out and capped the line. I just never saw a system like that before. But u guess thats how they used to do it long before my time.


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## rjbphd

theplumbinator said:


> Funny we are talking about gravity hot water. The other day I want to a 100 year old house with a pipe pouring water out of the side wall up near the attic. I was like what the hell could that be? So I went up into the attic, started digging around and found this big metal tank with a pipe going through the wall to outside. Turns out the house at one time had a gravity system and had been converted to pump with a boiler change somewhere through the years. They never removed the tank and the valve that was turned off to it had failed finally. Filled the tank up and started overflowing out the side of the house into the driveway and out to the street making everything into an ice skating rink. So i cut the tank out and capped the line. I just never saw a system like that before. But u guess thats how they used to do it long before my time.


How many pipe to the tank in attic??


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## theplumbinator

Just one going into tank with a gate valve. Then a vent exiting tank out the side of the house. The tank had a port also that was plugged as if there was another pipe in it at one time. But I didn't see any other pipes up there.


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## theplumbinator

What did that tank do in the gravity system? Remove air somehow? Only thing I could think of as to y it was in the attic at the highest point in the house. First time I ever came across anything like this. I kept the tank. Thought it looked cool with all the rivits in it at the seams. My guys want to scrap it lol.


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## OldSchool

Here is a lot of info for you http://www.oldhouseweb.com/how-to-advice/gravity-hot-water-heating-continued.shtml


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## rjbphd

theplumbinator said:


> What did that tank do in the gravity system? Remove air somehow? Only thing I could think of as to y it was in the attic at the highest point in the house. First time I ever came across anything like this. I kept the tank. Thought it looked cool with all the rivits in it at the seams. My guys want to scrap it lol.


Tank there with half full of water to handles the expanison.. the overflow is an incaditor(sp) showing there's enough water and static pressure on the system.. wherea the red incaitor (sp) needle is for on the tri gage.. 
Reason for asking how many pipe to tank is.. one pipe made it simple but prone to freezing in uninsulated attic, hence,with 2 pipes to tank, creating its own gravity circ to prevent freezing.
Had one home with 2 pipes and I reused it to connect the radiator in the remodeled attic.


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## theplumbinator

Cool thanks. Nice site. Good diagrams, answered my questions.


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## izzyduke

rjbphd said:


> So tell us newbies how do the multi floor heating loop works??


 nowadays with pumps from the boiler to heat pumps ,cuh's ect. maby even a erl loop in there for eff. i dont have time for newbies or sarcasm. lol


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## NyNick

Boilers don't utilize "pumps"..they use circulators.


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## theplumbinator

NyNick said:


> Boilers don't utilize "pumps"..they use circulators.


This is true circulators change water pressure causing water to move through heat loop. (Pumping Away by Dan Holohan)


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## OldSchool

theplumbinator said:


> This is true circulators change water pressure causing water to move through heat loop. (Circulating Away by Dan Holohan)


There Fixed it for you

Circulating away by Dan Holohan


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## theplumbinator

There Fixed it for you

Circulating away by Dan Holohan[/QUOTE]
Lmfao good one! Should post that up on heatinghelp.com


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## rjbphd

theplumbinator said:


> There Fixed it for you
> 
> Circulating away by Dan Holohan


Lmfao good one! Should post that up on heatinghelp.com[/QUOTE]

If Dan Holohan join the Zone.. I would welcome him heartly..


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## OldSchool

rjbphd said:


> If Dan Holohan join the Zone.. I would welcome him heartly..



I guess you and I are in good company rjbphd... 

Dan doesn't say circulating away .. He says pumping away ...


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## wyplumber

Alright guys keep in mind I was reminded plenty of times on this job I am just the plumber mech engineer is the only one to design it. 1st pic is of pump on the boiler to draw more flow into each boiler in the pic it is the equivalent of a taco 007 engineer has us changing it out to a taco 1600 series going from moving 15 Gpm to 170 according to engineer 2nd pic is a taco 0011 on the return line for the system 3rd pic my favorite engineer had us add 3hp taco pumps on the supply side of boiler 1st time I had them installed each had own check valve and strainer so switching between the 2 was easy but engineer failed it so had me put in that design 4th pic is the 20 dollar gate valve replacement I had to do because a ball valve there did not offer enough control to flow rates


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## rjbphd

Last pix with 2 large Taco pumps.. knowliy one is closed, but its still a mighty oversized for the size pipe???
See TX MECH.... no die elec unions crap in these pictures..


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## wyplumber

rjbphd said:


> Last pix with 2 large Taco pumps.. knowliy one is closed, but its still a mighty oversized for the size pipe???
> See TX MECH.... no die elec unions crap in these pictures..


Overdid to say the least lol vfd controllers got installed on these but owner ran out of money for pressure balancers on the line so whichever pump is running is at 100% oh and If you could not tell from the pics the galv and most of the copper is existing the insulated stuff I put in


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