# Fire place log lighter valve



## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Does anyone know if there is a required distance from where the "key" valve is to where the log lighter is?

Imagine a standard fireplace with a log lighter (say 18" long) and instead of the valve on the normal locations there is the valve IN the fire place cavity but off to the side and towards the front of the place. Is there a minimum distance required between the log lighter and the valve?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

The keyed valve should not be in the firebox period. I always install the keyed valve within 3' of the firebox and on the same wall as the firebox. The valve IN the firebox wouldn't be allowed here.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Tankless said:


> Does anyone know if there is a required distance from where the "key" valve is to where the log lighter is?





Tankless said:


> Imagine a standard fireplace with a log lighter (say 18" long) and instead of the valve on the normal locations there is the valve IN the fire place cavity but off to the side and towards the front of the place. Is there a minimum distance required between the log lighter and the valve?




USUALLY THERE IS A VALVE RIGHT ON THE GAS LOG AT THE INLET.

FROM A PRACTICLE STAND POINT I ALWAYS INSTALLED A REMOTE VALVE. e.g. If there was a problem [flare up] or what-not in the fireplace or on the log itself, you could not turn any thing off, if the valve was in the fire place. Almost the same as a gas valve behind a range. Absolutely of no use in an emergency.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> USUALLY THERE IS A VALVE RIGHT ON THE GAS LOG AT THE INLET.
> 
> FROM A PRACTICLE STAND POINT I ALWAYS INSTALLED A REMOTE VALVE. e.g. If there was a problem [flare up] or what-not in the fireplace or on the log itself, you could not turn any thing off, if the valve was in the fire place. Almost the same as a gas valve behind a range. Absolutely of no use in an emergency.


He's talking about a log lighter not gas logs that means a wood for will be burning......You install a gas valve inside the firebox with live gas on one side and the log lighter on the other??? To each his own guess:whistling2:


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> He's talking about a log lighter not gas logs that means a wood for will be burning......You install a gas valve inside the firebox with live gas on one side and the log lighter on the other??? To each his own guess:whistling2:


That's exactly how it was done. I need to be able to cite a code violation on this one for one of my clients that is buying a house. It is pretty stupid how they did this. As is now there is a bed of blue glass in the box.....


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Tankless said:


> That's exactly how it was done. I need to be able to cite a code violation on this one for one of my clients that is buying a house. It is pretty stupid how they did this. As is now there is a bed of blue glass in the box.....


 I guess call the gas inspector or the gas provider. I wouldn't bring a continuously live gas line into a wood buring firebox.


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## user2091 (Sep 27, 2009)

no requirements but as the master said. will work great!


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Nfpa 54. Check to see if the valve you are dealing with is listed blah blah blah......


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> Nfpa 54. Check to see if the valve you are dealing with is listed blah blah blah......


 No it would not apply because a fireplace that burns wood is not an appliance. they are talking about gaslogs or similar appliances.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Log lighters are not specifically addressed in NFPA 54. While not decorative. It is an appliance, in a fireplace.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> Log lighters are not specifically addressed in NFPA 54. While not decorative. It is an appliance, in a fireplace.


 Appliances have data plates and appurtenances may not. If the firebox is commercially manufactured it must have a data plate making it the appliance and the log lighter the appurtenace. I've never found a log lighter burner with a rating plate on it. Can you name one appliance that doesn't have a rating plate? Since we are debating if the log lighter burner is an appliance or not....lets not use that one as an example.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Feel free to debate whatever you like. Alone.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Thats what i thought. You cant name one. Thanks!


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I didn't even fully read your post above. I'm in no mood to endlessly debate useless bullshit with you Dan.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I've said my peace maby sombody else will reply...its not all about you.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

In the 1997 UPC (it's all I had at home!) It said in 1211.14. that all gas outlets located in a barbecue or fireplace shall be controlled by an approved operating valve located in the same room and outside the hearth,but not more than 4 feet from such outlet.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

You guys need to look at local fire code, not gas code, the state fire marshal's office oversees woodburning fireplaces and all things related to them.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

This thread is on FIRE..........................


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Tankless said:


> Does anyone know if there is a required distance from where the "key" valve is to where the log lighter is?
> 
> Yesterday I posted on this. I was set straight -- I thought you were talking about a gas log.
> I found this inspectors site on Google ... Interesting!
> ...


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## user2091 (Sep 27, 2009)

2006 UPC 1211.7 covers Sediment traps pretty well. and UPC1211.8.2 covers the log lighter issue. (B) Equipment shutoff valves installed in fireplaces shall be removed and the piping capped gas-tight where the fireplace is used for solid-fuel burning.[nfpa54:6.7.2.2


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

The 2001 CPC still has the following language: "that all gas outlets located in a barbecue or fireplace shall be controlled by an approved operating valve located in the same room and outside the hearth, but not more than 4 feet from such outlet." 
In the 2007 CPC (California never approved the 2003 UPC) such language has been removed. 

I'm guessing that the 2001 book reflected a synthesis of the old UPC and the NFPA languages where the 2007 book takes it's Chapter 12 verbatim from the NFPA.

I think best practice would be to follow the wording of the 2001 CPC.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Hmmm, 07 CPC has priority over all else. I really would like to have it capped off and a discount be applied to the home sale however the agents are going to have a shyit fit because it will just delay their sales / money. 07 doesn't address my specific issue, so do I simply say it's now allowed or default to 01 cpc? Either way if I am going to throw a stink I need code to back me up.... 






Plumbus said:


> The 2001 CPC still has the following language: "that all gas outlets located in a barbecue or fireplace shall be controlled by an approved operating valve located in the same room and outside the hearth, but not more than 4 feet from such outlet."
> In the 2007 CPC (California never approved the 2003 UPC) such language has been removed.
> 
> I'm guessing that the 2001 book reflected a synthesis of the old UPC and the NFPA languages where the 2007 book takes it's Chapter 12 verbatim from the NFPA.
> ...


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## user2091 (Sep 27, 2009)

Tankless said:


> Hmmm, 07 CPC has priority over all else. I really would like to have it capped off and a discount be applied to the home sale however the agents are going to have a shyit fit because it will just delay their sales / money. 07 doesn't address my specific issue, so do I simply say it's now allowed or default to 01 cpc? Either way if I am going to throw a stink I need code to back me up....


 I would since you can't burn almost anywhere here in Ca.!! In Ca. UPC supersedes all other codes, that includes CPC. 2006 UPC has been adopted in Ca. and it's what we use in Local 447 U.A Plumbers and Pipe fitters union. befor that was the 2002 UPC and before that the 1997 UPC and the last i remember is the 1994 UPC. :thumbup:


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

International Fuel Gas Code.

Chapter 6, 603.1

Log lighters shall be tested in accordance with CSA and installed in accordance with the manufacturers installation instructions.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

From "Blue Flame" (Log lighter)















<LI type=disc>*International Mechanical Code*








<LI type=disc>*ICBO - West Coast*
<LI type=disc>*BOCA - East Coast*
<LI type=disc>*SBCCI - South*
<LI type=disc>*Universal Plumbing Code*​
*AGA Certificates*




 
Fireplace* - *Fireplace Systems


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## user2091 (Sep 27, 2009)

RealLivePlumber said:


> International Fuel Gas Code.
> 
> Chapter 6, 603.1
> 
> Log lighters shall be tested in accordance with CSA and installed in accordance with the manufacturers installation instructions.


 :blink: In California 2006 UPC will supersede any manufactures recommendation[& this code IFGC]:no:. so if that's what you got it won't help!
(2006 UPC 1211.7 covers Sediment traps pretty well. and UPC1211.8.2 covers the log lighter issue. (B) Equipment shutoff valves installed in fireplaces shall be removed and the piping capped gas-tight where the fireplace is used for solid-fuel burning.[nfpa54:6.7.2.2)


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

We don't use UPC. We use NSPC, and IFGC

The manufacturer clearly shows the valve to be outside of the firebox. 

Common sense will also dictate that the valve is outside of the firebox, within arms reach. Turn the gas on, and light a match to ignite the loglighter. After wood is lit, turn off loglighter, from OUTSIDE the firebox. Why would you want to stick your arm in the firebox to reach the control valve. When the valve is off, no gas is in the piping in the firebox. Also, the holes are straight up.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

RealLivePlumber said:


> We don't use UPC. We use NSPC, and IFGC
> 
> The manufacturer clearly shows the valve to be outside of the firebox.
> 
> *Common sense will also dictate that the valve is outside of the firebox*, within arms reach. Turn the gas on, and light a match to ignite the loglighter. After wood is lit, turn off loglighter, from OUTSIDE the firebox. Why would you want to stick your arm in the firebox to reach the control valve. When the valve is off, no gas is in the piping in the firebox. Also, the holes are straight up.


Ahhh Them magic words...

*Common Sense*

Tells me its there without even looking to find it!:laughing:

If it's not I would consider the code to be highly deficient...:laughing:


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

1212.45

http://www.iapmo.org/UPC%20Report%20On%20Comments/2008%20UPC%20ROC/2008%20UPC%20Pre-Print/01%20Pre-Print%20-%20Chapters/Chapter%2012.pdf

So because the fireplace has been filled with crushed glass 1212.45 tells me that this is OK.....termed: decorative gas appliance.

Does this fly with you guys? I just hit the breaks on their Escrow about this, and now I'm thinking I need to just let it go.....What say you?

1211.9.2 (B)


> Appliance shutoff valves installed in fireplaces shall be removed and the piping capped gas-tight where the fireplace is used for solid-fuel burning.


Can someone please define "solid fuel burning" for me?'

Thanks


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## user2091 (Sep 27, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Ahhh Them magic words...
> 
> *Common Sense*
> 
> ...


:thumbsup:
in California we don't go by the manufacture recommendations we go by code and ahj!:thumbup: That's common sense in California. As for not going by The UPC, I understand that in hazard county they plumb by home depot standards! good deal they probably use realliveplumber common sense too! :thumbup: p.s plz refer to original question!!!!!


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## user2091 (Sep 27, 2009)

Tankless said:


> 1212.45
> 
> http://www.iapmo.org/UPC Report On ...-Print/01 Pre-Print - Chapters/Chapter 12.pdf
> 
> ...


 I would say that if it's not an insert(appliance)fire place it is not legal to install by California code standard! you will be fined for burning solid fuel.(wood/charcoal logs and so forth) appliances come with their own integral electric ignitors like water heaters! flick a switch, it's on or off! and they have thermostats to control heat! it's all covered in the title 24


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

bigdaddyplumber said:


> I would say that if it's not an insert(appliance)fire place it is not legal to install by California code standard! you will be fined for burning solid fuel.(wood/charcoal logs and so forth) appliances come with their own integral electric ignitors like water heaters! flick a switch, it's on or off! and they have thermostats to control heat! it's all covered in the title 24


 
We are not even close to title 24 on this one!!

Circa 1960s original fireplace. Home Depotesk GC ran new gas line to hearth and did the make up in there. Threw a log lighter (blue flame) in there and some glass.

I guess the argument could be made that if the new HO or tennant wanted to remove the glass and burn wood or a lighter log there is nothing restricting them from doing so, other than, now the gas valve is out of compliance.

So as of right this second the installation is compliant, however the ability to convert the fireplace to a solid burning fireplace exist, therefor what take priority? Common sense does not apply here...just code:laughing:


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## user2091 (Sep 27, 2009)

Agreed. But if your going by code you need a permit and when the inspector gets into it he will make you cap it or put in an insert that burns natural gas depending on AHJ. (Appliance fire place) you do need a contractors lic. to take out a permit.This is all in the 2007 california plumbing code or the 2006 UPC, the UPC take precedence.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Tankless said:


> 1212.45
> 
> http://www.iapmo.org/UPC Report On ...-Print/01 Pre-Print - Chapters/Chapter 12.pdf
> 
> ...


 Wood.

A "Decorative gas appliance" needs to meet a standard, and be listed by a certifying agency. Crushed glass is not/does not


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

So the fireplace would not be considered a "decoritive appliance" 
than.....just a fire place?


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

I'm bringing this one back because of a conversation I had today with a plumbing inspector. He said the new language covering a log lighter is in 1212.4 (2007 CPC)

_Gas utilization equipment connected to a piping system shall have an accessible, approved manual shutoff valve member, or a listed gas convenience outlet [NFPA 54: 9.6.4.], installed within 6 feet of the equipment it serves....

_So, it's no longer 4 ft .


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Plumbus said:


> I'm bringing this one back because of a conversation I had today with a plumbing inspector. He said the new language covering a log lighter is in 1212.4 (2007 CPC)
> 
> _Gas utilization equipment connected to a piping system shall have an accessible, approved manual shutoff valve member, or a listed gas convenience outlet [NFPA 54: 9.6.4.], installed within 6 feet of the equipment it serves...._
> 
> So, it's no longer 4 ft .


 Well that clears that up.....thank God for the code right.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Well that clears that up.....thank God for the code right.


I also thank God for the code left.


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## ciestaracing (Jul 25, 2014)

*Lengthy explanation. Hope it helps.*

A log lighter is suppose to be used to solely light the logs in a woodburning fireplace and the style that I am thinking of is like a Sioux Chief or something that is a notch better than a drilling holes in a black pipe. The reason I arrived at this thread was I was looking for that distance from the shutoff valve to the outlet of the log lighter because it was historically treated differently than the standard shutoff valve of an appliance. I want to thank the person that posted the UPC (1997) code reference earlier of 1211.14 saying 4' was the magic answer that we once used in our area. I just kept looking past it in the book. The reason for this is so a person can light a match, place it at the outlet, and THEN turn on the gas with the match calmly lighting the flame. One post said this in opposite order which we all should realize provides a big poof from the gas accumulation. A person can argue that they can start a fire or leave the match in the fireplace and still accomplish the same thing but I find this not as controlled and I've known this process since I was 5 years old and taught to light the gas room stove in the bathroom of the old house I grew up in (that had more than just that brilliant code violation so don't worry about pointing it out). We now have 2012 International Codes adopted which have changed. One post cited "the shutoff valve shall be within 6' of the appliance" which is correct for a range, water heater, etc. but I am pretty certain that this does not include a woodburning fireplace log lighter due to the above problem with gas accumulation at the outlet. However, the IRC references a log lighter specifically in G2433 and states "Log lighters shall be tested in accordance with CSA 8 and shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions." Thank you IRC for that enlightening bit of code text. As I understand, this previous owner installed a bunch of glass beads or something in the bottom with a gas log lighter to be used for the flame. This seems outside the intended use of a woodburning fireplace log lighter and possibly outside the listing of the log lighter. On the other hand, if they purchased a gas log style of kit, that may be approved due to the listing of the gas log and then the 6' shutoff valve may come into play again. FYI, the UPC requirement was 3' to the appliance instead of 6'. In either case of using the gas log lighter or the gas log insert, the woodburning fireplace damper should be blocked so that it cannot be completely shut so it still allows flue gas to escape.


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

ciestaracing said:


> A log lighter is suppose to be used to solely light the logs in a woodburning fireplace and the style that I am thinking of is like a Sioux Chief or something that is a notch better than a drilling holes in a black pipe. The reason I arrived at this thread was I was looking for that distance from the shutoff valve to the outlet of the log lighter because it was historically treated differently than the standard shutoff valve of an appliance. I want to thank the person that posted the UPC (1997) code reference earlier of 1211.14 saying 4' was the magic answer that we once used in our area. I just kept looking past it in the book. The reason for this is so a person can light a match, place it at the outlet, and THEN turn on the gas with the match calmly lighting the flame. One post said this in opposite order which we all should realize provides a big poof from the gas accumulation. A person can argue that they can start a fire or leave the match in the fireplace and still accomplish the same thing but I find this not as controlled and I've known this process since I was 5 years old and taught to light the gas room stove in the bathroom of the old house I grew up in (that had more than just that brilliant code violation so don't worry about pointing it out). We now have 2012 International Codes adopted which have changed. One post cited "the shutoff valve shall be within 6' of the appliance" which is correct for a range, water heater, etc. but I am pretty certain that this does not include a woodburning fireplace log lighter due to the above problem with gas accumulation at the outlet. However, the IRC references a log lighter specifically in G2433 and states "Log lighters shall be tested in accordance with CSA 8 and shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions." Thank you IRC for that enlightening bit of code text. As I understand, this previous owner installed a bunch of glass beads or something in the bottom with a gas log lighter to be used for the flame. This seems outside the intended use of a woodburning fireplace log lighter and possibly outside the listing of the log lighter. On the other hand, if they purchased a gas log style of kit, that may be approved due to the listing of the gas log and then the 6' shutoff valve may come into play again. FYI, the UPC requirement was 3' to the appliance instead of 6'. In either case of using the gas log lighter or the gas log insert, the woodburning fireplace damper should be blocked so that it cannot be completely shut so it still allows flue gas to escape.


You did a lot of search and reading but missed the thread where they said: this forum is for professional plumbers. Also another one said: an intro is requested for any new members! :yes:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

ciestaracing said:


> A log lighter is...



PZ is a site for those already in the plumbing trade. You are welcome to view the site and use the information available to you. Please refrain from posting until you have established that you are active in the trade. 

Start here>>> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/ 


Thanks.


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## Steveking (May 16, 2014)

Who cares burn baby burn!


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