# Island sink



## Bill

I had went to NJ and saw my dad on a plumbing job and he asked me how to do an island sink drain. I told him we run a whatever the main line x 2" tee wey, then come up through the floor, through the cabinet base, install a sanitary tee with a AAV on top of the tee. I helped him do it and when the inspector came he failed it. Not because we used a mobile home vent, we used a top of the line brand (Cant think of it right now) but rather the inspector wanted a what ever x 2" tee wey on the main line, then come up into the cabinet, then turn a 90, over to a 2x2x1-1/2 sanitary tee on its side so the trap can connect to the 1-1/2 side, then the other side the tee goes over to another 90 turned down, then run back through the cabinet to the main, connected by another what ever x 2 tee wey. I cant for the life of me figure that one out because what you are trying to accomplish is actually a vacume break. If the main line loads up as it passes the sink it causes negitive pressure in the line to the sink (Vacume) thus sucking the water out the trap. So, where happens when the main line loads up with this inspectors idea? There is no place for air to get in to break the vacume at all exept through the trap. Am I missing something here?

Dont laugh at my drawing, I am not an arist but this is how the inspector wanted it. The red dot is the tee for to catch the sink trap


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## Plumberman

He had the right idea with how he wanted it, but he missed one thing.When we install an island sink we come through the cabinet twice. Downstream we cut in a vent and arm it over to the nearest wall. Lay combos down, and on the second drain line we cut in a 2" combo to hit the wall. Now its vented....Studor vents are not legal down here unfortunatly..


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## WestCoastPlumber

AAV's are not legal here, unless you can talk the inspector into it. Except you need a c/o on the vent in the wall, and where the santee is, you should use a comby, but sometimes you don't have the room, so the inspector will approve the santee.

Maybe this will help, this is legal, in UPC country.


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## Plumberman

I looked for a pic but gave up.... Exactly what I was trying to put into words:thumbup:


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## 22rifle

WestCoastPlumber said:


> AAV's are not legal here, unless you can talk the inspector into it. Except you need a c/o on the vent in the wall, and where the santee is, you should use a comby, but sometimes you don't have the room, so the inspector will approve the santee.
> 
> Maybe this will help, this is legal, in UPC country.


You mean a combo where the vent tees off? Why so? 

BTW, this is the way I am used to doing it pre-AAV.


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## Bill

OK, now here is the problem people! code clearly states "No vent line shall run horizontal unless it is 6" or more above the flood rim level" So according to that pix it is a code violation. So they are violating it themselves by wanting it done that way.


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## WestCoastPlumber

22rifle said:


> You mean a combo where the vent tees off? Why so?
> 
> BTW, this is the way I am used to doing it pre-AAV.


 

Not sure, supposed to be a comby where the vent goes to the wall.. This is how it is in the UPC illustrated manuel. shows a wye 1/8th bend.


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## user4

USP45 said:


> OK, now here is the problem people! code clearly states "No vent line shall run horizontal unless it is 6" or more above the flood rim level" So according to that pix it is a code violation. So they are violating it themselves by wanting it done that way.


My code does not say that, it says all vents must tie in 6" above the flood rim of the tallest fixture being served by said vent.


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## Plumberman

Thats why you tie the lines in at the highest point possible.... I see what your saying though.


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## Ron

Right, to can run a vent below the flood level rim, but rules do apply, vertical to horizontal can be a short turn, but when going from horizontal to vertical it has to be a drainage fitting, then when connecting to the exiting vents, you have to be six inches above the the fixture it surves as KTS just said.

UPC Code.

That island loop picture posted by WCP is correct, except you have to have a clean out on the vent in the wall and it has to be accessible.


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## Bill

Why the high loop above the sanitary tee at the trap? Cant it be lower, or is that the thing to do, extend the "Loop" as high up under the sink top as you can get it to go?


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## user4

USP45 said:


> Why the high loop above the sanitary tee at the trap? Cant it be lower, or is that the thing to do, extend the "Loop" as high up under the sink top as you can get it to go?


You want to extend the vent as high in the cabinet as you can to prevent waste from entering the vent in case of a blockage.


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## Bill

Killertoiletspider said:


> You want to extend the vent as high in the cabinet as you can to prevent waste from entering the vent in case of a blockage.


Makes sense, thanks!


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## A Good Plumber

905.3 ...... *Vents less than six(6) 
inches(152mm) above the flood-level rim of the 
fixture shall be installed with approved drainage 
fittings, material, and grade to the drain.*

You allready mentioned the requirement for a cleanout on the vertical vent riser but I noticed that medium sweep 90 on the vent just before it rises vertical.

A code violation according to the UPC and inforced in my area.


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## Ron

Not sure why it's not showing in my code, but it used to say type of fitting you can use on change of directions, all I know is how it's been done, and it's still being done today. So yes in reality it's not being done to code, I'll ask next time I see an inspector.


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## WestCoastPlumber

For the record, the picture was for reference, it may or may not be code in your area. we have to do our island vents this way, except for the couple things i mentioned in my original post about the cleanout in the wall, on the vent, and the santee being a wye 1/8th.

this picture gave a good example, except for the few code changes that need to be done. :yes:


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## 3KP

Here we can just stub up an 2" line through the bottom of the cabinet. In certian county's there are different rules. every county allows us to stub up 2" bu tin one county we have to install studer vent. in other countys put a 2" 90 with 2x 1 1/2 bushing in it. Code can be taken in so many different ways. 

Here is a code that is quite broken here. In my Code book Table 7-5 DFU's chart it show that on a horizontial 1 1/2 can only have 1 dfu how many dfu's is a tub/shower unit??? According to my book it's 3 units SO how does this pass? :blink: There is another situation but I can't remember it right now.


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## Bill

3Kings Plumbing said:


> *According to my book it's 3 units SO how does this pass?* :blink: There is another situation but I can't remember it right now.


I always thought that any floor drain shall not be less than 2", so if a shower is considered a floor drain then it should have to be 2" waste line. AND I thought the code also says you can not reduce the size of the drain going downhill, and most showers I install have a 2" drain, so that means one would have to install a 2x1-1/2 flush bushing or reducer coupling, thus reducing the size as it flows downhill. And a tub/shower combo is a tub so to speak so the 2" rule does not apply to the tub. But then again, there is much more volume of water coming out of a tub than a shower, so I would had thought the tub should have a 2" drain. betcha the water would run out real quick that way!


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## GrumpyPlumber

*USP, you're diagram with the red dot shows a san tee connecting to the vertical portion of the bow, I think your inspector is on drugs buddy!:no:*

*Robert / Westcoast's picture is a great display of a good bow vent / island sink.*

*As for the vent, we have to use combo's on all vents vertically connecting to a horizontal run.*

*A good way to look at it is if a small twig just long enough to not make the radius of a shortsweep falls into the external VTR, it will stop and rest in the horizontal run...leading to a clog.*
*It could also happen on a combo, but at least a combo gives a wider radius.*


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## 22rifle

I understand a combo for any vent connecting to a horizontal drain.

What I don't understand is a combo for a horizontal vent connecting to a vertical line. In fact, I think it's dead wrong.

A san-tee in the vertical position is definitely a drainage fitting just as a regular 90 is when used from horizontal flowing into a vertical pipe.

What am I missing guys?


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## Herk

The UPC has, if I remember correctly, a special exemption for the island fixture, as long as it's plumbed as specified. (The picture above was a very good visualization of that.)

But the code that states that the vent must not go horizontal until it's above the flood level rim also states that if the pipe must be run below the flood level rim it will be of approved drainage materials.


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## GrumpyPlumber

22rifle said:


> I understand a combo for any vent connecting to a horizontal drain.
> 
> What I don't understand is a combo for a horizontal vent connecting to a vertical line. In fact, I think it's dead wrong.
> 
> A san-tee in the vertical position is definitely a drainage fitting just as a regular 90 is when used from horizontal flowing into a vertical pipe.
> 
> What am I missing guys?


*Thats what I'm talkin' 'bout!*

*Makes NO sense!*


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## WestCoastPlumber

I agree, makes no since. But the drawing has an arrow, and points tot he fitting, say's wye and showes the sweep of an 1/8th bend. :yes:

that to me is a comby, not a santee. :no: 

Maybe has too do with sweep, radius, or siphonage or something engineers would know about? something gravitational and 
mathmatical? :jester:


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## GrumpyPlumber

WestCoastPlumber said:


> I agree, makes no since. But the drawing has an arrow, and points tot he fitting, say's wye and showes the sweep of an 1/8th bend. :yes:
> 
> that to me is a comby, not a santee. :no:
> 
> Maybe has too do with sweep, radius, or siphonage or something engineers would know about? something gravitational and
> mathmatical? :jester:


*To be sure we're on the same page, I was referring to the O/P's pic with the red dot on the horizontal representing the drain inlet...never seen any bow vent/island sink set up that way, I have to wonder if he didn't misinterperet the inspectors description or something.*


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## WestCoastPlumber

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *To be sure we're on the same page, I was referring to the O/P's pic with the red dot on the horizontal representing the drain inlet...never seen any bow vent/island sink set up that way, I have to wonder if he didn't misinterperet the inspectors description or something.*


 

Oh, but I think 22 is curious about the comby, so I am going to post the picture out of the UPC illustrated manuel :thumbup:

I will feel better :yes::yes: just as soon as my IT , gets it on (my wife)


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## WestCoastPlumber

The code





there you go, hard to see, wife say's save it as a picture, then zoom it, but I bet you get the idea.


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## user4

A is legal in Chicago, B is not.


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## Plumberman

Same here....


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## WestCoastPlumber

Drain fittings below flood level rim only, and it is legal. vent fittings over floodlevel rim. :thumbsup:


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## Cal

Still don't think the vent below the floor is legal in Va. 

We use a lot of Studor AAV here . As long as they are accessible ,,, shouldn't be a problem .
Cal


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## Plumberman

Seen alot of AAV fail down here...


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## 22rifle

Plumberman said:


> Seen alot of AAV fail down here...


Which brand?

How are they failing? Is the rubber gasket cracking?


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## user4

22rifle said:


> Which brand?
> 
> How are they failing? Is the rubber gasket cracking?


Any mechanical device is going to fail, it is merely a question of when.

I have yet to see a car that runs forever without going in for repairs.


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## 22rifle

Killertoiletspider said:


> Any mechanical device is going to fail, it is merely a question of when.
> 
> I have yet to see a car that runs forever without going in for repairs.


True. And I don't consider that a problem. I install plenty other mechanical items in my systems and so do you.

I do consider "lots" of AAV's failing to be a problem and worthy of further questions.


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## user4

22rifle said:


> True. And I don't consider that a problem. I install plenty other mechanical items in my systems and so do you.
> 
> I do consider "lots" of AAV's failing to be a problem and worthy of further questions.


They are a code violation here, because of said failures.

I can't envision a single reason why they should be allowed to be installed.


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## Bill

We can use a Studor vent, they are allowed, but not those black trailer home vents


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## 22rifle

Killertoiletspider said:


> They are a code violation here, because of said failures.
> 
> I can't envision a single reason why they should be allowed to be installed.


Humph!

I bet you don't like PEX either.

LOL


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## rombo

Not sure if you guys would be allowed to do this in the states but this is legal here and works great


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## GrumpyPlumber

*To make it from the KS basin to below the floor joist, the length of the standpipe from drain to trap weir would exceed 24", it wouldn't be legal.*


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## Plumberman

22rifle said:


> Which brand?
> 
> How are they failing? Is the rubber gasket cracking?


Maxi- Vent i think was the names of them, its been awhile since I have come across one. But the valve itself would stick open dumping sewer gas into the cabinet or wherever it was located instead of sealing off after it drains. But like killer said any mechanical device has the chance of failing.


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## LIVMECM

west cosat plumber has it how we do it in louisiana


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## Redwood

West Coast posted the right way to vent an island sink.
It's also known as a loop vent.
It seems with the lax codes of today and liberal use of AAV's not many know about them anymore...


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## Plumberman

LIVMECM said:


> west cosat plumber has it how we do it in louisiana


What part of the great state bro?


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## plumbingpaul

*Island Sink*

Out West (IM in nevada) they want a loop vent, it is accomplished by putting 2 wye combonations together from the main line coming up through the cabinet putting in your sanitary tee for the drain and going as high as you can in the cabinet and joining a 1/4 bend and 2- 1/8 bends to form a 180 and going back through the floor to the other combo which has a san - tee that goes to a wall to VTR.


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## plumbingpaul

you have to slopew the horizontal vent 1/4 inch per foot


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## Ron

plumbingpaul said:


> Out West (IM in nevada) they want a loop vent, it is accomplished by putting 2 wye combonations together from the main line coming up through the cabinet putting in your sanitary tee for the drain and going as high as you can in the cabinet and joining a 1/4 bend and 2- 1/8 bends to form a 180 and going back through the floor to the other combo which has a san - tee that goes to a wall to VTR.


Does your code require an accessible CO in the wall of that VTR? Our's does, what code are you using?

Oh and by the way welcome to the board.


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## plumbingpaul

*co in the wall*

of course I realized i left that out, We currently in reno use the 2000 UPC but for whatever reason the contractors test was on the 1997 UPC. But im positive that a loop vent has been a code since the 1997 edition.


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## Protech

I see this frequently and it seems to work well. They sure are a breeze to jet.
Florida building code. Mostly slab on grade construction.

On that loop vent setup, wouldn't you want a test tee on the vent side of the loop so you could clean out the top of it?


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## Redwood

Protech said:


> I see this frequently and it seems to work well. They sure are a breeze to jet.
> Florida building code. Mostly slab on grade construction.
> 
> On that loop vent setup, wouldn't you want a test tee on the vent side of the loop so you could clean out the top of it?


Would you expect anything less for Studor's home state?:whistling2:


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## Proud Plumber

Redwood said:


> Would you expect anything less for Studor's home state?:whistling2:


Yes sir we Floridians are famous for more than hanging chads.:thumbsup:


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## Redwood

:laughing:


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## trick1

Ahhhhh the island vent. Up here in CT, we're using the International Residential Code and the IPC. Both accept the mechanical vent as long as the manufacturer's installation instructions are followed.


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## Redwood

Yea , I know but does that make it right?
Plumbing... So easy a caveman could do it!


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## Alan

Ron The Plumber said:


> Right, to can run a vent below the flood level rim, but rules do apply, vertical to horizontal can be a short turn, but when going from horizontal to vertical it has to be a drainage fitting, then when connecting to the exiting vents, you have to be six inches above the the fixture it surves as KTS just said.


Also have to be prohibited by structural conditions before you can even think about running below the 6" minimum, otherwise for-get it!


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## Protech

Sometimes they vent below the flood rim, sometimes they don't use a studor vent at all. I guess it's just comes down to what that inspector says on any given day.


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## rombo

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *To make it from the KS basin to below the floor joist, the length of the standpipe from drain to trap weir would exceed 24", it wouldn't be legal.*


We are allowed a developed length of 48" so we just make it


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## Kyle

ya the picture pretty much shows the best way to do it if allowed in your region. only thing ive done differently was cleanout on vent and drain about 2 inch up in cabinat looks pretty good. have not had alot of problems with them except for when installed and not properly supported an plus people put everything down the drain .


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## gusty60

Ron The Plumber said:


> Right, to can run a vent below the flood level rim, but rules do apply, vertical to horizontal can be a short turn, but when going from horizontal to vertical it has to be a drainage fitting, then when connecting to the exiting vents, you have to be six inches above the the fixture it surves as KTS just said.
> 
> UPC Code.
> 
> That island loop picture posted by WCP is correct, except you have to have a clean out on the vent in the wall and it has to be accessible.


 
And the san tee below the floor must be a wye and 1/8 bend ( or combo ) according to UPC. The UPC Illustrated Training Manual explains it in detail.


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## JCsPlumbing

In IPC where I am you can't have any vent with a "dry bottom". So the relief to the left couldn't be done.

J.C.


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## gabby

The method that the inspector was talking about is in an old BOCA code book. Weuse a studer ventin your situation now days. Inyears past we would run a 3" line into the cabnet with a 3x1.5 tee and cleanout on top or the tee. The vent to the wall in the picture is not legal in VA and never will be. You have a flat dry vent below the flood level of the fixture. The vent will work without the tee and running into a wall and out. The picture with out the tee is old school.


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## arkyplumber

Here in Arkansas, have to run twice the size of the drain, in this case 3'' up threw the cab. Vent can then run no more than 20' horizontal under the floor to the nearest wall, and then threw the roof.


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## deejay112776

(FIGURE 12: Reserved)
FIGURE 13a: *Illustration of Bow Vent Single Installations.*







here an picture from the the mass plumbing code book.a little differnt than the horizontal installation.


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## Ron

That diagram is not how they do it here under UPC


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## WestCoastPlumber

arkyplumber said:


> Here in Arkansas, have to run twice the size of the drain, in this case 3'' up threw the cab. Vent can then run no more than 20' horizontal under the floor to the nearest wall, and then threw the roof.


 

3" drain for a kitchen sink island vent........geeze, there aren't any scouring principles in that pipe.

Over size is not good either.


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## nhmaster3015

arkyplumber said:


> Here in Arkansas, have to run twice the size of the drain, in this case 3'' up threw the cab. Vent can then run no more than 20' horizontal under the floor to the nearest wall, and then threw the roof.


That is a very good method indeed and far superior to running either a bow, loop or AAV. With a 3" pipe you really don't have to worry about self scouring.


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## WestCoastPlumber

nhmaster3015 said:


> That is a very good method indeed and far superior to running either a bow, loop or AAV. With a 3" pipe you really don't have to worry about self scouring.


 

I have run cameras in oversize lines, it is nasty as all heck. the bottom looks like a stream, and the sides havea large amount of buildup.

This is why we size our pipes. Self Scouring is important, I believe it even talks about it in the code book.

If it's not important, why not run everything on 4":no: :thumbsup:


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## M5Plumb

Two things I'd be concerned with on the bow vent are the size of the vent, (1-1/4"), I'd size it up to 1-1/2" and add in a clean out on the yoke part of the vent.


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## nhmaster3015

M5Plumb said:


> Two things I'd be concerned with on the bow vent are the size of the vent, (1-1/4"), I'd size it up to 1-1/2" and add in a clean out on the yoke part of the vent.


IPC there needs to be three clean outs which naturally, no one ever uses. That is the whole problem with the bow vent in the first place is that the vent can clog and no one will ever know untill the sink begins to stink.


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## gladerunner

Man you guy's got it tough. In philadelphia we use a one pipe system that allows us to run small fixture waste 12' developed lenth from a vented line with no additional venting. We could even use an s trap if we wanted.


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## deejay112776

Ron The Plumber said:


> That diagram is not how they do it here under UPC


 hey Ron ive always been told Massachussettes is one of the strickest states as far as plumbing code.R.I allows aav`s on almost everything, exclusiely on an island we have to get written permission from the board.am i hearing wrong from other local plumbers?just curious.


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## Ron

deejay112776 said:


> hey Ron ive always been told Massachussettes is one of the strickest states as far as plumbing code.R.I allows aav`s on almost everything, exclusiely on an island we have to get written permission from the board.am i hearing wrong from other local plumbers?just curious.


I think all code except for I'mYourTourGuide code that he uses, are strict in one way or the other.


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## highpoint

*northern sinks must drain different lol*

our inspector here in the great north wants it like a shower arm with the trap in the floor joists. you can use an 1 1/2 vent. you can also come off hte tail piece with 1 1/2. but from the clean out down he wants 2" if you are going 8' , 3" for 12' and on and on.


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## ILPlumber

OK how do you do it if it gets over the limit set by the inspector? 

We all have distance of trap to vent maximums.

How do you Canadians vent an island sink?

Having the trap that low is something I have never seen approved.


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## Protech

Highpoint, that looks WACK! Wouldn't you end up with more than 24" of trap riser? And 8' is looooonnnggg way to run and unvented waste arm. I would think that trap would siphon dry every time.


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## highpoint

ILPlumber said:


> OK how do you do it if it gets over the limit set by the inspector?
> 
> We all have distance of trap to vent maximums.
> 
> How do you Canadians vent an island sink?
> 
> Having the trap that low is something I have never seen approved.


 
we only have one building inspector in our area and very often he makes up his own rules. if we are over the limits and do an island vent, (he refers to them as barber loops) it seems he has a different idea every time on how he wants it.
i did one that looked alot like the drawing from westcoast plumber and then the inspector told me there had to be 6 ' inbetween the wyes on the horizontal drainage connection, and then there is no need to vent up the wall because you would have adequate air flow. it is difficult having a carpenter inspect plumbing and i do my best to point out plumbing code.
therefore everyone around here does it this way. 
and yes you are almost always over the 750mm fixture outlet max.
he suggests sinks on an outside wall be run like this too for frost protection.


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## ILPlumber

Sounds like that inspector wakes up in a new world every morning.

Sorry to hear of the problems in the great white north. I thought Canada was a utopia


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## highpoint

haha. a utopia alright; my snowmobile gets more use lately than my pipe wrench. lol

I ran into the inspector today and asked him for a drawing on the island venting (barber loop) . he said he has two drawings of them and he would accept either one but prefers the 'shower drain' style instead.


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## Plumbworker

highpoint said:


> haha. a utopia alright; my snowmobile gets more use lately than my pipe wrench. lol
> 
> I ran into the inspector today and asked him for a drawing on the island venting (barber loop) . he said he has two drawings of them and he would accept either one but prefers the 'shower drain' style instead.


he's wacked!!


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## SPH

Highpoint has it right, we can run 8ft on a 2" arm. Never had any problems with it. Developed length on the outlet pipe can get a bit long but its better than putting in an AAV.

I cant really think of too many situations where you would be 8ft from a wall to run a vent. And really there is nothing wrong with an AAV in my opinion. Sure they will wear out in time like anything else. If you get an Oatey and screw it into a 2" Female adaptor then its no big deal. Some plumbers just don't like change, seems that even the inspectors are more forward thinkers than some plumbers, like in illinois, haha


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## Protech

6' on 2" here. Nore more than 24" drop from drain to trap. Florida code.


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## Plumbworker

Protech said:


> 6' on 2" here. Nore more than 24" drop from drain to trap. Florida code.


upc is 5' for 2"


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## ILPlumber

SPH said:


> Highpoint has it right, we can run 8ft on a 2" arm. Never had any problems with it. Developed length on the outlet pipe can get a bit long but its better than putting in an AAV.
> 
> I cant really think of too many situations where you would be 8ft from a wall to run a vent. And really there is nothing wrong with an AAV in my opinion. Sure they will wear out in time like anything else. If you get an Oatey and screw it into a 2" Female adaptor then its no big deal. Some plumbers just don't like change, seems that even the inspectors are more forward thinkers than some plumbers, like in illinois, haha


Right. Forward thinkers.... haha 

We in IL are smart enough not to approve whatever crap is produced with a lobbying budget as well as an advertising budget. 

Build a correct island vent or run a vent if it's within distance.

How hard is that?


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## stillaround

ILPlumber said:


> Right. Forward thinkers.... haha
> 
> We in IL are smart enough not to approve whatever crap is produced with a lobbying budget as well as an advertising budget.
> 
> Build a correct island vent or run a vent if it's within distance.
> 
> How hard is that?


Ahh! Life in Illinois. You "guys" can relax a bit you have great tasting tomatoes from the garden. You'd also be able to enjoy your vegetables more if you'd cook them and add a little sugar and maybe some bacon grease. Not starting anything here, one hard adjustment was after living in Illinois 35 years and plumbing in Chgo. for 10 years, then moving to Florida and coming face to face with what was called plumbing-- After a few thats not how we did it up north comments ( they dont like that one )and spending too much time making it look great and solid the mellowing process took over and 21 years later.......what was I saying?
Oh, have you ever looked under a house where the waste pipes are'nt connected and havent been for a while and the people dont really care except its starting to smell bad-it makes the proper loop vent seem far away. :whistling2: dixie.


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## fusionmec

SPH said:


> Highpoint has it right, we can run 8ft on a 2" arm. Never had any problems with it. Developed length on the outlet pipe can get a bit long but its better than putting in an AAV.
> 
> I cant really think of too many situations where you would be 8ft from a wall to run a vent. And really there is nothing wrong with an AAV in my opinion. Sure they will wear out in time like anything else. If you get an Oatey and screw it into a 2" Female adaptor then its no big deal. Some plumbers just don't like change, seems that even the inspectors are more forward thinkers than some plumbers, like in illinois, haha


Hey guys, new to the forum, and just had to chime in... I am in Vancouver B.C., Canada, and have to agree with SPH and Highpoint, its what the inspectors want here!!,... infact, I did a commercial job a few years back where I installed the drainage/venting much like the drawing that WestCoastPlumber drew for a island sink, did it all in cast iron, even had to rent a scissor lift and get a guy in to core through a 8" wall,... only to have the inspector tell me to take it out and run it like a shower arm?. So I did and he passed it!? and have been passing it since (not the same dude though, eh?!)


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## highpoint

fusionmec said:


> Hey guys, new to the forum, and just had to chime in... I am in Vancouver B.C., Canada, and have to agree with SPH and Highpoint, its what the inspectors want here!!,... infact, I did a commercial job a few years back where I installed the drainage/venting much like the drawing that WestCoastPlumber drew for a island sink, did it all in cast iron, even had to rent a scissor lift and get a guy in to core through a 8" wall,... only to have the inspector tell me to take it out and run it like a shower arm?. So I did and he passed it!? and have been passing it since (not the same dude though, eh?!)


 
EH!!


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## PipeDreamer

Bill said:


> OK, now here is the problem people! code clearly states "No vent line shall run horizontal unless it is 6" or more above the flood rim level" So according to that pix it is a code violation. So they are violating it themselves by wanting it done that way.


In NJ we use The National Standard Plumbing Code. Bill, see 12.8.1 exception (3) below.

As far as island venting goes, the WCP diagram looks correct. Text from the 2006 National Standard Plumbing Code follows: 
*12.8 FIXTURE VENTS*​
*12.8.1 Venting of Fixture Drains*
*Fixture drains shall have a vent so located that the vent connects above the top weir of the trap and the **developed length of the trap arm is within the limits set forth in Table 12.8.1.*
*EXCEPTIONS:*
*(1) Water closets and similar siphonic fixtures.*​*(2) Combination waste and vent systems. (see Section 12.17)*
*(3) Vents may be connected below the top weir of the fixture trap if the following conditions are met:*
*a) The vertical section of the drain pipe shall be at least one pipe size larger than the trap inlet size.*
*b) The horizontal pipe connected to the trap outlet shall be at least two pipe diameters long.*
*c) The developed length of the trap arm shall not exceed the values in Table 12.8.1.*

*Table 12.8.1*

*MAXIMUM LENGTH OF TRAP ARM*
*Diameter of Trap Length—Trap to Vent Slope—Inches per Foot*
*1 1/4 .....................3'6" ..............................1/4*
*1 1/2 .....................5' ..................................1/4*
*2 ...........................8' ..................................1/4*
*3 .........................10' ..................................1/4*
*4 .........................12'.................................. 1/8*
*NOTE: *​*This table has been expanded in the "length" requirements to reflect expanded application of the wet venting principles. Slope shall not**exceed 1/4" per foot.*


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## PipeDreamer

*12.18 ISLAND SINK VENTING*
*12.18.1 Where Permitted*
Island sink venting shall be permitted for sinks and lavatories where the vent pipe cannot rise 6 inches above the flood level rim of the fixture before turning horizontal. Kitchen sinks in dwelling units with dishwasher connections, food-waste-grinder connections, or both, shall be permitted to be island vented. Also see section 12.8.1 (3).

*12.18.2 Arrangement of Vent Piping;*
The island vent pipe shall rise vertically under the sink at the end of the fixture trap arm to at least 4 inches above the outlet of the fixture. The vent shall then turn downward and connect to the horizontal drain line below the floor downstream from the fixture drain connection so that the vertical vent drop will drain by gravity to the drainage system. A horizontal vent pipe shall be extended under the floor from the vertical vent drop to a point where it can rise vertically. The vertical rise at the end of the horizontal vent portion shall extend upward to at least 6 inches above the flood level rim of the fixture being vented before turning horizontal and connecting to a vent to the outdoors. The horizontal portion of the vent under the floor shall pitch back to the sink so that it will drain by gravity through the vertical vent drop connection to the drainage system.

*12.18.3 Size of Island Vent Pipes*
Island vent pipes shall be sized as individual or common vents in accordance with Section 12.16.1.

*12.18.4 Cleanouts Required*
Cleanouts shall be provided in the vertical vent drop under the sink and in the vertical rise beyond the horizontal portion of the vent so that any blockages in the vent piping can be rodded into the drainage system.


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## Double-A

WestCoastPlumber said:


> Drain fittings below flood level rim only, and it is legal. vent fittings over floodlevel rim. :thumbsup:


Waaaayyyyy back on page one or two of this thread, there was a discussion regarding the use of a combo or a sanitary tee to connect to the horizontal portion of the vent running to the vertical VTR. 

The one question I have about that, and I can't find it right now, but, doesn't that violate the general rule of not restricting the flow of air in a drainage system? I mean when using a combo.

The sanitary tee will at least allow air to rise up the "vent" section of the bow vent if the fitting is mostly flooded, whereas the combo won't. It will cut the vent off much sooner. 

Splitting hairs, perhaps, but this leads to the old argument in the National Code about the use of a reducing fitting (such as a 4x3 bushing) in a horizontal drain to connect a vent. It cuts off the free flow of air. I've always preferred to stay full size until I turn vertical, then reduce the size.


Oh, and regarding the scouring action of a combination waste and vent... UPC says you can't use a waste/vent on a fixture that introduces buildup that requires scouring, so a kitchen sink is out. 

We use a waste/vent system here in Arkansas for island sinks and it does cause problems. We're under the IPC. They are great for ice makers, but teh suxxors for kitchen sinks, IMHO.


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## nhmaster3015

I have been waste stack venting island sinks for better than 20 years and have never had even one single back-up or problem with them.


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## Protech

You can use combos on a waste arm in FL. ILplumber explained the reason why they don't allow that in IL and like many things in the IL code it doesn't make sense if you really think about it. I'm going to keep this short because I'm idling in front of a HO's house waiting for them to arrive at any minute.

In most cases there is going to be a flow channel and an air channel in the waste arm. A combo will not cut the arm off from the vent because the water will slide down the gradual bend of the combo much like the water at a water parks water slide does. The air channel in the top of the pipe will not be disrupted. I'll follow up with a drawing this evening.


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## Protech

OK here goes.


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## nhmaster3015

Whatca got there in dat diagram is a trap weir thats above the vent which done makes it a 3/4 s trap and illegal under the IPC. Gotta use a san tee there. Even if'n you upsize the trap arm.


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## Protech

:whistling2:.................


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## Protech

here, leme make that bigger for ya.


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## A Good Plumber

Protech said:


> here, leme make that bigger for ya.


 

Your code shows a combo to be used for vert to hor and hor to vert.

Here in California we use the UPC and/or the California Plumbung Code (which ever is specified for the job), both codes require a san tee for a trap arm when going from vertical to horizontal, for the same reason nhmaster3015 stated.


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## Protech

Differn't strokes for differn't folk I guess. I'll I can say is in FL it's legal and water seems to flow from a waste arm into an adequately sized combo just fine for me.

Maybe one day when I'm bored I'll build a clear pipe rig and video it accepting water from a lav faucet and you all can tell me if you see a disturbance in the flow channels or if you see the trap siphon when I shut the water off.


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## Double-A

When you do, be sure to use the maximum distance allowed for the fixture trap to vent for the size used and be sure to install at the maximum pitch allowed (1/4" per foot I think for 4 inch and smaller). 

Also, can you tell me what you mean by "aerated water" in your drawing just past the trap weir? I'm funcused.


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## Protech

When the water is forced out of the trap at high flow it is usually churning and forms a slug of aerated water right behind the trap. After a few inches, the water calms and lays flat in the bottom halve of the pipe.


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## WestCoastPlumber

Protech said:


> Differn't strokes for differn't folk I guess. I'll I can say is in FL it's legal and water seems to flow from a waste arm into an adequately sized combo just fine for me.
> 
> Maybe one day when I'm bored I'll build a clear pipe rig and video it accepting water from a lav faucet and you all can tell me if you see a disturbance in the flow channels or if you see the trap siphon when I shut the water off.


 

Having a comby pick up a trap has nothing to do with how the water flows, it has to do with preventing the trap from siphoning. You are not able ot keep a proper trap seal with a comby.


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## Protech

why is that?


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## WestCoastPlumber

Protech said:


> why is that?


 

UPC, 1002.4

vent pipe opening from soil or waste pipe, except that of water closets and similar fixtures, shall not be below the weir of the trap.

something to that effect, I am sure water drains the same here as it does in florida. 

If you can plumb to the UPC, you can plumb anywhere.


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## Protech

As promised:


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## Protech

Thoughts? Anyone?


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

Nice.


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## TheMaster

Protech said:


> Thoughts? Anyone?


It will work fine unless the arm fills up......if the arm fills up the trap will siphon with a combo. Looks like the code is letting you use whatever fitting you want unless you install it upside down. whats the point of a code book anymore. next they will be letting people lay tee's down on their backs or quit making them all together and just have combos


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## Protech

Ah but that's just it, the waste arm won't fill up because it's just a tad bit bigger than the trap it's serving. The water only occupies the bottom section of the pipe. The air is able to exchange with the water and break the siphon because of the air channel in the top of the pipe. As long as the waste arm is properly sized it will work perfectly. If the pipe is too small then there is not enough room for a good sized air channel then it WILL siphon the trap. Not rocket science.

How is that any different than wet venting a kitchen?


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## Ron

TheMaster said:


> next they will be letting people lay tee's down on their backs or quit making them all together and just have combos


Allowed here, vent only never for drainage.


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## TheMaster

Ron The Plumber said:


> Allowed here, vent only never for drainage.


 Well sure they are allowed in the vent system...I'm talkin drain


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## Protech

And sanitary tees are not obsolete. Allot of times you won't have enough room to oversize the pipe so you would have to do it the conventional way and use the minimum waste arm size with a san tee.

It can be convenient though to use a combo in situations that would make cleaning the line difficult with a san tee. The first example that comes to mind is a twin lav setup. A double combo works great in that situation and makes for an easy drain cleaning call later on.


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## Ron

I'm talking about tee on it's back to serve as the vent for said fixture, instead of useing a combo we can use a tee, most codes do not allow this setup, does yours?


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## TheMaster

Ron The Plumber said:


> I'm talking about tee on it's back to serve as the vent for said fixture, instead of useing a combo we can use a tee, most codes do not allow this setup, does yours?


 Oh ok.....no that would be illegal because its below 6" of the flood rim. If I had a cat like urs they would pass it for me tho!!!:thumbup:


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## Protech

We can't do that here. It makes it difficult if not impossible to get a cable or a jetter down the vent to get into the waste lines.


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## GREENPLUM

I am glad I can use AAV anywhere I want here in GA. I have seen a entire house vented to the attic and then AAV on top. They were like 2 feet from the roof, I dont know why they didnt go through the roof. They had a problem with the toilets flushing. I put the vents through the roof and WAAAA LAAAA no more problems. So I would like to say "thanks" to the plumber who did this, it was an EZ job and paid well.


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## Ron

TheMaster said:


> Oh ok.....no that would be illegal because its below 6" of the flood rim. If I had a cat like urs they would pass it for me tho!!!:thumbup:


This happens all the time here there and everywhere, Sink drains into trap, from trap goes to the vent, vent out the roof, explain your it's below the flood level rim. When is the drain from a fixture ever above the flood level rim before it hits a vent?


What is the difference in the vent pickup other then difficulty in cleaning of the drain though the vent, don't say there both below the 6" level zone. Cause you did not read my post very well.


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## ILPlumber

We all know what it means Ron. I believe The Master just likes to stir the pot.


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## TheMaster

Ron The Plumber said:


> This happens all the time here there and everywhere, Sink drains into trap, from trap goes to the vent, vent out the roof, explain your it's below the flood level rim. When is the drain from a fixture ever above the flood level rim before it hits a vent?
> 
> 
> What is the difference in the vent pickup other then difficulty in cleaning of the drain though the vent, don't say there both below the 6" level zone. Cause you did not read my post very well.


They will not allow a sant. tee in the horizontal here unless its 6" above the flood level rim of the fixture. Their reasoning is if the drain cloggs then that portion of the vent can become effectivly part of the drain at this point. Ok now the drain gets unclogged from the cleanout in the basement but the vent still is clogged ........its re-vented back to the main stack......no way to clean it out. Ok they figure if the vent connection has a long sweep it will unclogg itself. Kinda like a toilets vent cant go horizontal less than 45 degrees below the flood level rim unless its washed by a fixture because its vent can become clogged easily if the system backs up. Our rule actually says NO sant tee's in the horizontal position unless its in the vent system.......in your example the tee is IN the fixture arm in the horizontal on its back......and they would fail it here everytime. I would pass it for you if you had cleanouts and the vent went out the roof.....not revented in the wall back to a stack or into the attic with 90 degree turns everywhere. A simple drain cleaning job turns into a 1/2 day ordeal without arrangments for cables to make turns. I've been accused of smoking it but never stiring it:blink:


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## TheMaster

Ron The Plumber said:


> This happens all the time here there and everywhere, Sink drains into trap, from trap goes to the vent, vent out the roof, explain your it's below the flood level rim. When is the drain from a fixture ever above the flood level rim before it hits a vent?
> 
> 
> What is the difference in the vent pickup other then difficulty in cleaning of the drain though the vent, don't say there both below the 6" level zone. Cause you did not read my post very well.


 I did read it your post...but the difference is when the tee is in the vertical the drain continues vertically to become the vent and is straight. With the tee in the horizontal,if the drain cloggs and backs up into the vent it would need to drain through a fitting designed to be installed in the vertical position on its back. What would be the big deal of using a combo instead of the tee even if the only reason was for cleaning purpose.?...thats reason enough for me


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## Ron

I was just telling you that they have already allows us people to use santee/s, want to take your mind for a spin, open your eyes to these pictures, not mine thou.

http://www.plumbingzone.com/members/i-myourtourguide-66/albums/artco-enterprises-inc/


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## ILPlumber

TheMaster said:


> I did read it your post...but the difference is when the tee is in the vertical the drain continues vertically to become the vent and is straight. With the tee in the horizontal,if the drain cloggs and backs up into the vent it would need to drain through a fitting designed to be installed in the vertical position on its back. What would be the big deal of using a combo instead of the tee even if the only reason was for cleaning purpose.?...thats reason enough for me


 
What a load of malarky. *SHOW* me chapter and verse in your code book where it says sanitary tees cannot be used for dry vents off the top of a sanitary drain. 

Are you plumbing under IPC 2006?


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## TheMaster

Ron The Plumber said:


> I was just telling you that they have already allows us people to use santee/s, want to take your mind for a spin, open your eyes to these pictures, not mine thou.
> 
> http://www.plumbingzone.com/members/i-myourtourguide-66/albums/artco-enterprises-inc/


 Wow that wouldn't pass here. I agree some places its just fine. I gave ya a reson why I dont really care for it being done that way. It makes me more money somtimes but most of the time it doesn't matter. I just like using sweeping fittings...always have. Whats wrong with stiring the pot alittle anyway?:jester:


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## Ron

Stirring the pot on here with a bunch of arrogant, hard nosed, put the boxing gloves on, I'm better then you plumbers, only leads to fights, nothing wrong with a good debut, but once it goes to the ring the bell round one it won't stop.


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## TheMaster

Ron The Plumber said:


> Stirring the pot on here with a bunch of arrogant, hard nosed, put the boxing gloves on, I'm better then you plumbers, only leads to fights, nothing wrong with a good debut, but once it goes to the ring the bell round one it won't stop.


 I agree and try to keep on subject. Gentlemen debate not argue.....after a debate we still can go get drinks together. I agree to disagree with honor!!! no foul language!!!!


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## Protech

I'm going to agree with themaster on that. The pictures shown in that link would never pass inspection in Fl. We like long sweeping bends:yes:



Ron The Plumber said:


> I was just telling you that they have already allows us people to use santee/s, want to take your mind for a spin, open your eyes to these pictures, not mine thou.
> 
> http://www.plumbingzone.com/members/i-myourtourguide-66/albums/artco-enterprises-inc/


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## Ron

Even I don't use santees like what is in those pictures, only in a vent situation and only if grade is not allowing me to use a combo.


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## GREENPLUM

I will also AGREE with "TheMaster" The Atlanta Inspection Department would take a Picture of it and put it on there "HALL OF SHAME". But I understand the CODE is different where you live. No name calling here, just postin my stinkin opinion


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## Ron

That is Kentucky Codes in those pictures, not Oregon

Here is the code and what it says.

Section 9. Change of Direction. A change in direction of a sewer shall be
made with long curves, forty-five (45) degree wyes, half wyes, quarter, sixth,
eighth or sixteenth bends *or sanitary tees installed on their back or on their sides* at an angle of not more than forty-five (45) degrees.


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## TheMaster

kentucky is as screwed up worse than alabama and thats not a easy task


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## Ron

I cleaned lines for years, clean outs are required in many parts of our code, at the kitchen, laundry, on the mains, so santee on it's back is not an issue, santee on it back to serve as vent only, no drain can connect to it, it most cases it will be for the closet, seldom for the smaller drains, and all closets vents are min 2" OTR.


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## PipeDreamer

2006 National Standard Plumbing Code (New Jersey)
We can use a tee on its back for a single fixture:


> *
> 2.3 CHANGES IN DIRECTION OF DRAINAGE PIPING​2.3.1 Uses for Drainage Fittings​*a. Changes in direction of drainage piping shall be made with long radius drainage fittings. See Table
> 2.3.1.
> EXCEPTION: Short radius drainage fittings shall be permitted in the drain piping for individual fixtures. See
> Table 2.3.1.
> b. Short radius drainage fittings are those having radius or centerline dimensions that are approximately
> equal to or less than their nominal pipe size. The radius or centerline dimensions of long radius drainage
> fittings are greater than their nominal pipe size.
> c. Long radius drainage fittings shall not be used to connect fixture trap arms to vertical drain and vent​piping. Connections to fixture vents shall be above the top weir of the fixture trap.





Protech said:


> It can be convenient though to use a combo in situations that would make cleaning the line difficult with a san tee. The first example that comes to mind is a twin lav setup. A double combo works great in that situation and makes for an easy drain cleaning call later on.


We can't use a double combo for that here. See exception C above.


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## HALO3

a vent must be roughed 6" above the highest "flood level rim" not tallest fixture. Bill is correct, the illustration above for the loop vent is incorrect. Ron correct, however, a vent which is roughed in from a horizontal wye fitting will still be plumbed accordingly, 6" above highest flood level rim.


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## TheMaster

Ron The Plumber said:


> That is Kentucky Codes in those pictures, not Oregon
> 
> Here is the code and what it says.
> 
> Section 9. Change of Direction. A change in direction of a sewer shall be
> made with long curves, forty-five (45) degree wyes, half wyes, quarter, sixth,
> eighth or sixteenth bends *or sanitary tees installed on their back or on their sides* at an angle of not more than forty-five (45) degrees.


Maybe they mean 45 degrees from vertical AND rolled left and right. Setting the tee in the vertical position...lean the tee on its back no more than 45 degrees and/or roll it no more than 45 degrees left and right. All of that would still be considered vertical.


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## Ron

Yea sure. Are you sure about Kentucky Codes?


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## TheMaster

Ron The Plumber said:


> Yea sure. Are you sure about Kentucky Codes]
> I'm not sure but i know thats how I read the portion of the code you posted. Maybe they are interpreting it differently in Kentucky. The code is interpreted differently by different inspectors.....I've things turned down before because the inspector had never seen it done that way and automatically assumed it was wrong. I would love to propose the question to a Kentucky inspector. Most codes consider 45 degrees as the break angle between vertical and horizontal and changes in direction. So why wouldn't it apply to that portion of the code? They start out saying long curves and end up saying sanitary tees......wtf? sant. tee doesn't have a long curve at all.


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## Ron

I don't know how to read that code, but the pictures tell a story, how would you like to be the drain cleaner on those drains?


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## TheMaster

Ron The Plumber said:


> I don't know how to read that code, but the pictures tell a story, how would you like to be the drain cleaner on those drains?


I dont like to see those tight bends is all. It ruins your cables if your not super careful and just makes the job harder. Work is work i guess,I hate all clogged drains really! Ive seen a 3x1.5 sant tee for a lavatory get clogged up in the 3" portion. It just keeps building at the sweep in the tee until the entire vent and drain is closed off. Go on the roof and drop your cable down the stack and unclogg it in 5 seconds. thats in the vertical position also!!!!!


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## ILPlumber

I'm prolly wrong, but I can't see a san tee on it's back approved for recieving waste approved under any code.

I'm going to have to look it up if I can find KY code.


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## Proud Plumber

ILPlumber said:


> I'm prolly wrong, but I can't see a san tee on it's back approved for recieving waste approved under any code.
> 
> I'm going to have to look it up if I can find KY code.


We are actually allowed to do it here. I am not saying I agree with that use, but we are allowed install them on there backs.


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## Protech

Uhhhhh, you sure bout that buddy? go back and look at the table in post #94. That's Florida code. Can't put san tees on their backs in FL:no:



Proud Plumber said:


> We are actually allowed to do it here. I am not saying I agree with that use, but we are allowed install them on there backs.


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## Proud Plumber

Protech said:


> Uhhhhh, you sure bout that buddy? go back and look at the table in post #94. That's Florida code. Can't put san tees on their backs in FL:no:


I am sure about that. I do agree with you and cannot dispute our code. However, I can walk you through roughly 600 homes in one development that have kitchen sinks where the plumbing contractor installed san tees on there backs for studor vents just to name one example off the top of my head. All of which were completed after that code was printed. Again, not saying agree with it but it is allowed or perhaps better worded they get away with it... :yes:


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## Protech

It's against the written code but the inspectors didn't catch it or don't care. I can show you 100s of homes that have combonation/waste vent system with disposals to. Still against code.


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## frostyplumber

Bill said:


> OK, now here is the problem people! code clearly states "No vent line shall run horizontal unless it is 6" or more above the flood rim level" So according to that pix it is a code violation. So they are violating it themselves by wanting it done that way.


 no the code says you may go horizontal under flood rim if it is unfeasible to do otherwise but graded to drain and you must use drain fittings


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## rickmccarthy

That is exactly how we ran them In NM had to be a 45 at the top no horizontal. Here in Tn we use those air admittance valves like crazy I hate em btw the little black ones at HD dont work if your gonna use one do yourself a favor get a good one from the supply house......still no gaurentees

Rick


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## Plasticman

The black ones are not code approved here but just last week was in supply house and this plumber guy, ( I assume ) picked up a few drainage fittings and specifically asked for the black one. Tisk, tisk.


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## jathompson

*Island Sink Loop Drain*

I read all the posts and looked at VA code and still am perplexed. None of the diagrams state if the horizontal vent pipe under the floor has a limited maximum length. Reading the code it seems to imply that it is 6' for 1.5" pipe and 8' for 2" pipe. Or it could be read to be for the waste pipe to vent length. Does anyone know if the horizontal vent pipe length matters?


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## Michaelcookplum

jathompson said:


> I read all the posts and looked at VA code and still am perplexed. None of the diagrams state if the horizontal vent pipe under the floor has a limited maximum length. Reading the code it seems to imply that it is 6' for 1.5" pipe and 8' for 2" pipe. Or it could be read to be for the waste pipe to vent length. Does anyone know if the horizontal vent pipe length matters?


I work in nova, why don't you use a studder vent instead of a loop vent? The distance won't matter If you use a studder vent. Using the loop vent vent I believe you are required to follow the maximum lengths you posted( 1.5 6', 2" 8')


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## SlickRick

jathompson said:


> I read all the posts and looked at VA code and still am perplexed. None of the diagrams state if the horizontal vent pipe under the floor has a limited maximum length. Reading the code it seems to imply that it is 6' for 1.5" pipe and 8' for 2" pipe. Or it could be read to be for the waste pipe to vent length. Does anyone know if the horizontal vent pipe length matters?


Post an intro and we will have class.


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## Tommy plumber

jathompson said:


> I read all the posts and looked at VA code and still am perplexed. Does anyone know if the horizontal vent pipe length matters?[/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do I know, I just work here......:jester:


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## Paulie B

In rhode island we are allowed to use aav's. The other way you are describing is what is known as a bowe vent.


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## SewerRatz

Paulie B said:


> In rhode island we are ...blah blah blah.


 You might want to post an intro over in the introduction part of this forum. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/


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## Mississippiplum

Paulie B said:


> In rhode island we are allowed to use aav's. The other way you are describing is what is known as a bowe vent.



Post an intro it's easy an we all had to do it


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