# Mixing Valve Problems



## Maintenanceberg

I am servicing a hot water circulation loop at a senior living facility. A new boiler and Symmons 6-400 valve were installed 5 months ago on a 40 year old building. We have very hard water. 

The system worked great for about three months, regulating the temp between 110 and 120 pretty consistently. Around that time we began receiving work orders from nurses who noticed "cold water" at the central bath. We check temps randomly throughout the facility daily and had not noticed any variance. However, we ran the central bath fixtures and had maintenance monitor temperatures on the loop at the boiler simultaneously and noticed a nearly instant drop in temperature, from 120 on the outgoing gauge to 80 in less than a minute.

We pulled the valve cartridge, noted some small granules of scale, cleaned and replaced. Closely monitoring the temperature every half hour, we noticed it now varies widely and unsafely between 140 to 80 degrees, depending on the load. I shut off the return and opened a bypass to attempt to eradicate any air in the system, but still cannot regulate the temperature safely. As an emergency option, I moved the boiler down to 120 degrees and fully opened the mixing valve. The water is consistently 120 on departure and 110 on return. The new boiler is not experiencing a drop in temp, just the circulation loop.

Any ideas on what could be the problem? At roughly $500 I don't want to just throw a cartridge at it without eliminating other options but I need to get my boiler back up to temp to be in compliance in the laundry and for legionaire's. Thanks in advance. 

Facts about the facility:

hot water softened, but not cold mixing water
72 bed facility
central bath and laundry on boiler, laundry not on balanced loop
single story


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## Gettinit

HMMMM, $500 :blink::whistling2: Are you kidding me? You must not be a plumber or have common sense.


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## Plumberman911

Their going to tare you up


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## mightypipe

Maintenanceberg said:


> I am servicing a hot water circulation loop at a senior living facility. A new boiler and Symmons 6-400 valve were installed 5 months ago on a 40 year old building. We have very hard water.
> 
> The system worked great for about three months, regulating the temp between 110 and 120 pretty consistently. Around that time we began receiving work orders from nurses who noticed "cold water" at the central bath. We check temps randomly throughout the facility daily and had not noticed any variance. However, we ran the central bath fixtures and had maintenance monitor temperatures on the loop at the boiler simultaneously and noticed a nearly instant drop in temperature, from 120 on the outgoing gauge to 80 in less than a minute.
> 
> We pulled the valve cartridge, noted some small granules of scale, cleaned and replaced. Closely monitoring the temperature every half hour, we noticed it now varies widely and unsafely between 140 to 80 degrees, depending on the load. I shut off the return and opened a bypass to attempt to eradicate any air in the system, but still cannot regulate the temperature safely. As an emergency option, I moved the boiler down to 120 degrees and fully opened the mixing valve. The water is consistently 120 on departure and 110 on return. The new boiler is not experiencing a drop in temp, just the circulation loop.
> 
> Any ideas on what could be the problem? At roughly $500 I don't want to just throw a cartridge at it without eliminating other options but I need to get my boiler back up to temp to be in compliance in the laundry and for legionaire's. Thanks in advance.
> 
> Facts about the facility:
> 
> hot water softened, but not cold mixing water
> 72 bed facility
> central bath and laundry on boiler, laundry not on balanced loop
> single story


You should post an intro in the intro section before asking questions. I am really nice, but there are plumbers here who will not be... They want to know who you are, where your from, that you have some kind of license, etc. you're probably lucky that many of the east coasters are now asleep. Hurry, post an intro before morning.


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## rjbphd

mightypipe said:


> You should post an intro in the intro section before asking questions. I am really nice, but there are plumbers here who will not be... They want to know who you are, where your from, that you have some kind of license, etc. you're probably lucky that many of the east coasters are now asleep. Hurry, post an intro before morning.


Damn, others had the first taste of you before I did... post a proper intro or the beatings will get worst.


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## Gettinit

mightypipe said:


> You should post an intro in the intro section before asking questions. I am really nice, but there are plumbers here who will not be... They want to know who you are, where your from, that you have some kind of license, etc. you're probably lucky that many of the east coasters are now asleep. Hurry, post an intro before morning.


I thought we were the nice guys?


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## mightypipe

rjbphd said:


> Damn, others had the first taste of you before I did... post a proper intro or the beatings will get worst.


Too late maintenanceberg... They're here!


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## mightypipe

Gettinit said:


> I thought we were the nice guys?


If it makes you feel better, you can be one of the nice guys too!


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## johnlewismcleod

The answer is simple, maintenanceman :yes:....hire a plumber


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Ooo ooo. I didn't miss the party. I'm not on east coast or east Texas but I'm an a hole and proud if it !!!! I was in maintenance .... But am a licensed plumber..... So I go easy. First post an intro second if your softening the hot water but mixing the cold with it in ur mixing valve and ur not softening the cold then wtf are u thinking. Turn ur softener off and put the salt in the ice cream maker. Second if ur in maintenance then you should have some boiler / plumber guy. Or a supply house guy ....someone to ask rather then go online Third I know a simple way to see if its the mixing valve but I'm not telling you!!! Fourth do what you do and eliminate parts of the equation. Fill out ur order tell boss this might work spend 500 on cartridge and try it. Maybe you'll get lucky. Maybe I read wrong but if there's a circ line back to boiler on the side of the mixing valve then u need to soften all the water. Ever heard of making pickles. You should try it!!! And last but not least. Have fun looking at what we repair daily and scratching ur head. Dam goober maintenance guys. Looking for info online cuz some suit is up ther as about budgets and spending. I feel for u. It's not rocket science here. It cold water hot water and tempered water. 
If its ur building for a while you should already know the layout and what to do


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## mightypipe

'So I go easy.'

That was very nice of you Tex. are you becoming one of the nice guys too? You even told him how to fix his problem if he is sharp enough to put two and two together.


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## rjbphd

mightypipe said:


> 'So I go easy.'
> 
> That was very nice of you Tex. are you becoming one of the nice guys too? You even told him how to fix his problem if he is sharp enough to put two and two together.


But he didn't tell him to put Moentrol in... oops, did I say too much?


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## mightypipe

rjbphd said:


> But he didn't tell him to put Moentrol in... oops, did I say too much?


Both you and tex must be drinking tonight... You might as well have gone out there and fixed it for him, together. Where is he anyway? Oh... That's right, we DON'T know, 'cause he didn't post an intro.


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## rjbphd

mightypipe said:


> Both you and tex must be drinking tonight... You might as well have gone out there and fixed it for him, together. Where is he anyway? Oh... That's right, we DON'T know, 'cause he didn't post an intro.


Tex will seek him out....


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

mightypipe said:


> Both you and tex must be drinking tonight... You might as well have gone out there and fixed it for him, together. Where is he anyway? Oh... That's right, we DON'T know, 'cause he didn't post an intro.


I highly doubt that Bone will be enough to fix it for him!! But we will see no more of him cuz I already ..................


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## Maintenanceberg

I'll do the intro after work, if I don't get booted by then. 

I am not solely a plumber by trade, rather plumbing overlaps with my profession, as does hundreds of other specialties. I do not claim to be the be all to end all when plumbing issues arise. However, I have to handle plumbing issues as they arise within my profession, delegating to either one of my staff or a licensed guy. When I feel the waters approaching “over my head” level, I call in one of the licensed guys. I don’t DIY my plumbing, so I didn’t use that version of the forum. 


As to the unsoftened cold water, I’m aware of the obvious ignorance of this and thought I would add it for that purpose. I didn’t invent the system here, just inherited it. For at least 20 years, the building has been tempered in this fashion. Not just this loop, but every loop except the newest, which isn’t softened at all. Every licensed plumber I’ve had in the facility for the last 6 years has agreed that it isn’t the brightest idea, but was a question of efficiencies to help mitigate hardness rather than eliminate it. The semi-softened mixed water has a quarter of the ppm’s of hardness of tap. Other loops in the facility function in the same half adzed way quite fine. 


The cartridge lists at $700 or so on Symmons. Plumbmaster has it for $500 or so, so I don’t know where my ignorance leads me astray with that particular comment.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

I must say I like ur outlook. And I know all about inheriting a turd. Once a turd always a turd if you paint a turd it's still a turd. I doubt you will be welcome here ..... I know you won't !!! But once again here's your bone. Go make pickles !!! Good luck to you. I've already said to much !!!!


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## Tommy plumber

Maintenanceberg said:


> I'll do the intro after work, if I don't get booted by then.
> 
> *I am not solely a plumber by trade, rather plumbing overlaps with my profession, as does hundreds of other specialties.* I do not claim to be the be all to end all when plumbing issues arise. However, I have to handle plumbing issues as they arise within my profession, delegating to either one of my staff or a licensed guy. When I feel the waters approaching “over my head” level, I call in one of the licensed guys. I don’t DIY my plumbing, so I didn’t use that version of the forum.
> 
> 
> As to the unsoftened cold water, I’m aware of the obvious ignorance of this and thought I would add it for that purpose. I didn’t invent the system here, just inherited it. For at least 20 years, the building has been tempered in this fashion. Not just this loop, but every loop except the newest, which isn’t softened at all. Every licensed plumber I’ve had in the facility for the last 6 years has agreed that it isn’t the brightest idea, but was a question of efficiencies to help mitigate hardness rather than eliminate it. The semi-softened mixed water has a quarter of the ppm’s of hardness of tap. Other loops in the facility function in the same half adzed way quite fine.
> 
> 
> The cartridge lists at $700 or so on Symmons. Plumbmaster has it for $500 or so, so I don’t know where my ignorance leads me astray with that particular comment.


 







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