# Solve this mystery!



## Mykeeb33 (Mar 6, 2015)

Has anyone ever seen this type of damage to NH pipe? This is part of a 4 story lav waste stack in a condo/hotel building, located in Kihei Maui, installed 1985. I've been told this kind of damage is showing up all over the Hawaiian islands. So far, there have been over 40 cracks like this that start leaking and invariably causes the walls to be opened up to repair. The building management team hired consultants who may recommend that all the pipe be replaced. (440 condos, 10 buildings) What a job!
I've never seen this type vertical damage in 40 years of plumbing in the Seattle area. I was shown a sample of the 2" pipe. There was a san tee that had the same kind of vertical damage. It looks like it may have started out as a micro crack that rusted into a larger one that finally started leaking. :detective: Maybe a bad batch from the manufacturer, but you think someone would have noticed it. CI makes a very distinctive thud sound when it's cracked and you tap it on something hard.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

I've seen it in S. FL along the Atlantic ocean in high-rises. Not sure why it happens. Inferior pipe? High humidity?


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Salt and humidity destroys cast iron. Replace it with pvc... Or cast iron if you want to do it again in 30 years.


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## Gruvplumbing (Dec 26, 2013)

We see that a good bite where I'm at. It is always paper thin where the crack is and still thick on the other side. I've always just assumed it was old and needed replaced.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Flyout95 said:


> . Replace it with pvc... Or cast iron if you want to do it again in 30 years.


Reminds me of some galvanized water main we were installing on the early 90's. I wondered why and the boss said who cares, we replace it in 25 years.

That was almost 25 years ago...........................


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I'm not 100% certain but I think the cast iron pipe cracked.


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## wharfrat (Nov 1, 2014)

I see that often when the line has been dry for a few months. Commercial buildings with vacant suites, New tenant occupies and we get called to repair cracked cast. 

Im don't know why yours is cracking.


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## Mykeeb33 (Mar 6, 2015)

Wharfrat, you may be on to something there. A lot of these condos are occupied pretty steady November thru April, and then not so much during the hot Hawaiian summer season. It's like the pipe gets super brittle
. It just seems strange that the cracks are all lengthwise.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

we see that all the time in much older homes....
nothing as new as 1985..... 

I have always thought it cracked on
the side of the line that the water usually had a tendency to fly down
rubbing against the cast as it went.....something like a waterfall .......


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Sometimes you see cast iron where the center of the mold was off so there is a thin side those will crack first, but they all will crack eventually...

Yes, The hammer and sound finds the cracked lengths...

Replace it with cast iron if noise is a concern otherwise cheaper and longer lasting to replace it with PVC...


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> I'm not 100% certain but I think the cast iron pipe cracked.



Biz it didn't crack, it expanded. Don't you know the expansion rate of CI?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Sometimes you see cast iron where the center of the mold was off so there is a thin side those will crack first, but they all will crack eventually...
> 
> Yes, The hammer and sound finds the cracked lengths...
> 
> Replace it with cast iron if noise is a concern otherwise cheaper and longer lasting to replace it with PVC...



Unless his code state he has to use CI


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## Hillside (Jan 22, 2010)

We run into cracked cast all the time here in so.cal, vertical, horizontal, drain, vent, doesn't really matter, ran into this last week at a commercial building that was 10 years old, cracked floor drain vent, cracked santee fitting at urinal and a cracked toilet vent, all within 3' of each other, wasn't under stress at all


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## Hillside (Jan 22, 2010)

.......


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Hillside said:


> .......


NH on a urinal drain? Around here it has to be packed and poured to the point of dilution and 6" above flood rim. Used to only be allowed brass on the stub out but a few years back they started allowing sch 80 pvc.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Mykeeb33 said:


> Wharfrat, you may be on to something there. A lot of these condos are occupied pretty steady November thru April, and then not so much during the hot Hawaiian summer season. It's like the pipe gets super brittle
> . It just seems strange that the cracks are all lengthwise.



The water flows lengthwise , are there laundry facilities. Acidic condensation, Concentrated soap , take your pick. It's where the inside coating has worn away and the water has done what water does, erodes everything.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

bct p&h said:


> NH on a urinal drain? Around here it has to be packed and poured to the point of dilution and 6" above flood rim. Used to only be allowed brass on the stub out but a few years back they started allowing sch 80 pvc.



I noticed that too


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

The sched 80 is only allowed on carriers, not branch arms


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Cast iron sucks.. install PVC and be a hero


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## titaniumplumbr (Jun 11, 2014)

Mykeeb33 said:


> Has anyone ever seen this type of damage to NH pipe? This is part of a 4 story lav waste stack in a condo/hotel building, located in Kihei Maui, installed 1985. I've been told this kind of damage is showing up all over the Hawaiian islands. So far, there have been over 40 cracks like this that start leaking and invariably causes the walls to be opened up to repair. The building management team hired consultants who may recommend that all the pipe be replaced. (440 condos, 10 buildings) What a job! I've never seen this type vertical damage in 40 years of plumbing in the Seattle area. I was shown a sample of the 2" pipe. There was a san tee that had the same kind of vertical damage. It looks like it may have started out as a micro crack that rusted into a larger one that finally started leaking. :detective: Maybe a bad batch from the manufacturer, but you think someone would have noticed it. CI makes a very distinctive thud sound when it's cracked and you tap it on something hard.


 that is normal for cast iron i see it all the time

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## TXPlumbBob (Dec 13, 2013)

Hillside said:


> .......


That does not look good. What the guy say when you told him "We are going to take this wall out here, and here"? LOL.

Seismic? on the cracks. 

CI pipe is spun and not molded so there are no seams? 

Its not freeze damage in Hawaii. LOL Capt. Obvious here. 

Lower floors more so than the upper ones? Weight?


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

plumbdrum said:


> The sched 80 is only allowed on carriers, not branch arms


The way they explained it in continuing ed a few years back was that you could use it for the piece connecting from the spud into the wall. That one straight piece of pipe. I never bothered to look it up in the code book because I always use threaded brass for that. I did look it up after you said that and it does say carriers.
I did a remodel in an office building a couple months back and the urinal stub outs were done with a couple PVC male adapters and some PVC pipe in between. The worst part was that it wasn't even the biggest hack thing done that was hidden behind the walls before we opened them up.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Sorry I kind of derailed this.
Cast iron can crack like that for a lot of reasons. Thin spot in the pipe when it was made, cracked before it was installed, bad installation of hangers, chemicals going down the drain that shouldn't be weakened the pipe, erosion, seismic activity, building settling ect...
If it has been in there for 30+ years I wouldn't put too much thought into it. 
I'm not sure what your code says about using PVC in that type of building but if it is allowed you might want to check your book about using PVC with a cast iron stack above it. My code says you can't just take out a piece of cast and put in PVC. They're concerned about the weight of the cast stack breaking the plastic.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

plumbdrum said:


> Biz it didn't crack, it expanded. Don't you know the expansion rate of CI?


I missed that question on the CI certification quiz.

As a result...I am only allowed to run PVC, Flyout won't let me carry his tools, and RJ confiscated my folding ruler.


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## titaniumplumbr (Jun 11, 2014)

Over tightening of no hubs causes a lot of this also forcing the pipe back and forth to level or straighten it can cause stress on the ci. Also the pipe gets wet and dries gets wet and dries causing multiple layers of rust to form which weakens the pipe like cancer. Also tuberculation builds up on the walls and fills the pipe which eventually causes the pipe to burst. I've seen all of these happen.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

I ran into this problem once. The conclusion was that sewer gas had ate its way threw the pipe and fittings. Causing the thin wall to crack and the acidic gas would erode and rust the crack. All of our cracks were on top of the fittings and pipe.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

wyrickmech said:


> I ran into this problem once. The conclusion was that sewer gas had ate its way threw the pipe and fittings. Causing the thin wall to crack and the acidic gas would erode and rust the crack. All of our cracks were on top of the fittings and pipe.


Yeap! Esp the building with dentist/medical offices..


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## piper1 (Dec 16, 2011)

see it all the time... lighting strikes ...


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## Dpeckplb (Sep 20, 2013)

Mykeeb33 said:


> Has anyone ever seen this type of damage to NH pipe? This is part of a 4 story lav waste stack in a condo/hotel building, located in Kihei Maui, installed 1985. I've been told this kind of damage is showing up all over the Hawaiian islands. So far, there have been over 40 cracks like this that start leaking and invariably causes the walls to be opened up to repair. The building management team hired consultants who may recommend that all the pipe be replaced. (440 condos, 10 buildings) What a job!
> I've never seen this type vertical damage in 40 years of plumbing in the Seattle area. I was shown a sample of the 2" pipe. There was a san tee that had the same kind of vertical damage. It looks like it may have started out as a micro crack that rusted into a larger one that finally started leaking. :detective: Maybe a bad batch from the manufacturer, but you think someone would have noticed it. CI makes a very distinctive thud sound when it's cracked and you tap it on something hard.


I stayed in kihei for the past 3 January's. What condo building was this at? I stayed at kihei beach resorts.


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## Mykeeb33 (Mar 6, 2015)

*Location, location, location.*

South Kihei. This was in a condo right across the street from Kamaole III beach park, although I've heard it's happening to properties all over Hawaiian Islands.


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## PaulW (Jul 31, 2008)

In Central Florida (the lightning capital of the world) we have seen cracks because of a strike.


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