# Here's a few pic of a custom home I did



## 3KP

I hope these fit


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## Ron

Nice, put I'm confused, where is the vent take off's for the tub and toilet, here you have to pick up a vent within said amount of distance from the trap, or closet flange.


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## 3KP

*Help with confussion*

Here we don't have to vent the toilets! I think is really retarted!  I throw a Y in with in 5ft from the WC flange. (wet vent) run an 2" line to tub and lav. When I reach the lav I throw in an 2x1 1/2 Y in and roll up to catch my lav (wet vent) off the end of the Y I run and catch my tub or shower. I been doing it this way for 11 years I never sat down and looked it up in the code book. But in the last 4 years I have NOT failed an inspection!:thumbup:

I know every state has there own rules and guide lines. These pic I posted was in a area where the inspectors are  They have a License Contractor on the inspection board and he personally looks at all plumbing in there county!


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## GrumpyPlumber

*I gotta be a plumber, they say ask 4 plumbers how to do someting and get 4 different answers....*
*Pic #1 I'd have run the 1-1/2" line straight down the bay into the 2" with a 2"x 1-1/2" combo wye rather than drill the joist.*
*Pic #2 I'd have used a 3" x 2" x 3" wye (with bushing if necessary) to catch the 2" lav/tub drains rather than add the extra offsets on the 2" drain.*

*As for the venting, it looks like you guys can use wet vents like we can...I can see not needing a vent for a toilet where they're already a full S-trap and depend on the fill valve to refill the trap after siphoning, but a toilet can still siphon from the vacuum/pressure created from other fixtures draining...we're allowed to flat vent WC's here, but nothing else.*
*All traps in my code must be vented.*

*One final complaint....how the heck do you work on PVC & NOT get nasty filthy greasy disgusting hand prints all over it?!?:laughing:*

*Clean work buddy, well done.*


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## user4

It's amazing how codes vary state to state, that job would have to be ripped out if installed here, PEX is not approved, PVC is OK in some area's, but has to be installed with color contrasting primer, and no wet vents of any type are allowed, except a single fixture with no more than one fixture unit may be tied into the base of the stack.


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## WestCoastPlumber

First of all, clean work!

I guess you used clear Primer? I use purple, messy, but visable. We can only use pvc for water here, but same idea.

That would never pass here. way to many bends, I see plenty of areas that need cleanouts because of all the 1/8's and 1/4's. 

Failed in my area, but sure will work well for years to come.


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## WestCoastPlumber

By the way, I like the manifold system on the pex, it insures equal water pressure throught the system, instead of the original way to pipe it.


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## Ron

Too much pex, too costly, we don't do manifolds here.


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## 22rifle

I can't figure out the appeal of the manifold systems. Here are the negatives I have figured out.

1. They cost more money.

2. They look messier.

3. Thy take longer to install.


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## Song Dog

Killertoiletspider said:


> It's amazing how codes vary state to state, that job would have to be ripped out if installed here, PEX is not approved, PVC is OK in some area's, but has to be installed with color contrasting primer, and no wet vents of any type are allowed, except a single fixture with no more than one fixture unit may be tied into the base of the stack.


:laughing::laughing::laughing: Or within the same state. Its neat to here you mention what is code and not for you up there cuz it is different down here. But for the most part the same. 

3Kings, CLEAN! I do like the color scheme RED WHITE & BLUE. 
Grumpys right you can ask 4 plumbers and each one will have a different answer or a way they would have done it. What it is, is what it is. It passed then its ok.

In Christ,

Song Dog


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## Herk

22 Rifle said:


> 1. They cost more money.
> 
> 2. They look messier.
> 
> 3. Thy take longer to install.


I thought they look impressive.

They install pretty quickly.

They do cost a bit more.

Now, let's look at advantages:

No tees, nineties, reducers or other fittings buried in the walls. There's just one solid pipe from the manifold to the fixture.

When a fixture needs repaired, you shut off the lines to that fixture only, no need to shut off anything else in the house.

Smaller pipes bend more easily making them easier to install.

Try to imagine an electrical system where you run great big wires across the house and put breaker boxes all through the house to take off one wire at a time . . .


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## Plumberman

It does look clean, good job! But like the codes differ from state to state and county to county or for me parishes this would not of passed. We HAVE to individually vent toliets. We have never installed manifolds but they look clean also. They never leave us enough room in these house down here to put one in. Plus another company installed some in the attic down here on some new high rise condos on the river. They did the job in the summer and did not insulate the manifolds..... Yep you guessed it the ruptured and demolished the ceilings in every condo.... Thousands of dollars in damages.


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## Ron

Herk said:


> When a fixture needs repaired, you shut off the lines to that fixture only, no need to shut off anything else in the house.


Without the manifold, each fixture less tub shower valve, will have a shut off at the fixture it's self. This eleminates the need to shut off entire house. Cost lot less to run if you run it with branch lines. Fewer holes to drill if not fewer then smaller holes through your floor joist.


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## Alan

22rifle said:


> I can't figure out the appeal of the manifold systems. Here are the negatives I have figured out.
> 
> 1. They cost more money.
> 
> 2. They look messier.
> 
> 3. Thy take longer to install.


4. takes longer to get hot water.


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## Ron

So what is the total footage of pex needed to run from that manifold?


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## Song Dog

Ron The Plumber said:


> So what is the total footage of pex needed to run from that manifold?


I did a new const. home last year (against my wishes:yes I used a different type of manifold and used 1000' at .29 per foot= $290 my cost and it went 100 X's quicker that copper or branched trunk line. I asked the GC what would he wanted truck or manifold (makes no difference to me, manifold is would cost him more), he said manifold. OK thats what it will be. Hot and cold had its own 1" copper horizontal manifold with brass ball valves. 
This example of what I used is when I was using Aquapex type fittings. But the regular crimps is what I used at the house I am talking about. Both manifolds Aquapex and crimp is pretty much the same. I label stick each line so the ho knows whats what.









In Christ,

Song Dog


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## Song Dog

BTW- The 1000' was for a 2 1/2 bath, kitchen,laundry, and 3 hose bibs.

In Christ,

Song Dog


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## Bill

I thought the code stated that all traps and trapped fixtures must be vented?


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## Herk

Alan said:


> 4. takes longer to get hot water.


No and yes. It actually takes less time to get hot water because the pipe is much smaller than the 3/4" or 1" mainline. However, if you get hot water to one fixture, you have to wait for it again at the next fixture, though the water in the manifold itself is still hot, so only the water in the pipe itself counts.


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## Ron

So how does one put a recirc on a manifold, seems it can't happen like it's planned to work?


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## Herk

Ron the Plumber said:


> Without the manifold, each fixture less tub shower valve, will have a shut off at the fixture it's self. This eleminates the need to shut off entire house. Cost lot less to run if you run it with branch lines. Fewer holes to drill if not fewer then smaller holes through your floor joist.


True enough, as long as the repair isn't from someone shooting a nail in a pipe in between. I recently had a problem with water heater sediment backing up into the manifold at a customer's house. I had to flush out a single line to a toilet where the white flakes plugged the stop. I had to shut off the water at the manifold, remove the stop at the toilet, flush it into a bucket using the valve on the manifold with the tube upstairs extended to the bucket. Easy-peasy. I knew exactly which line was plugged because there was nothing else on it.

And there's no reason you couldn't incorporate ball valves into the lines at bathtubs and showers if you didn't want a manifold. It would be easier to make repairs.

I also removed a bathtub two years ago that I no longer needed. Yup - I just shut off the valves on the manifold and cut the lines. So there are pluses and minuses and it can come down to the preference of the owner. But I have to say that it's absolutely true that it balances the water pressure. My tub valves predate the pressure-balanced valves and no one ever gets scalded when water is used elsewhere in the house. You can't ever feel a difference in temperature.

BTW - my system is polybutylene installed around '92 and I have yet to have a single leak or problem with it. (No chlorine or chemicals in our water.)


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## 3KP

*How much pex*

I used 1500' of blue and 1300' of red. But this was an 6 bath house 3 upstairs on 3rd floor and 2 on main floor at opposite ends of house and the one in the basement was at opposite end of house. I never looked to see how much it cost (kinda scared to) The total 2nd R/I in material costed me around $4500.00 (tubs, pipe, fittings, and misc. stuff)

USP45
They are vented. We wet vent everything here. I know in Illinois they have to put vents on every single thing!!! Tub even has it's own vent. (Tee on it's back running up to vent is what I seen). Here according to turpitation of code book. We don't have to vent toilets or showers with 2' traps on them. But I was taught to wet vent everything. I think I tried to explain it a few post back somewhere. We modifiy all kitchen drains here. Just run a 2" line up through the floor 8" off center. On finish in some countys we have to put a studer vent on them in others just put a 2" 90 with 2x1 1/2 bushing to catch the drain in the kitchen.

Like


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## Song Dog

HOLY SMOKES!! 2800' of pex and 6 bath, now there should be plenty of plumbing in that house. A house w/ 6 baths? That I don't get
I do believe Killers and I codes are different even though we are both in IL, but him being in Chicago is the difference. 
We must individually vent anything down stream of a stool. We can wetvent a stool but the wet must be 2". On our wetvents there is to be no more than 4 dfu's on the wet portion. Wetvent or individual vent, everything must be vented in either fashion. You are right, here we must vent everything:thumbsup:
Once again WOW 2800' fo pex:thumbsup:

In Christ,

Song Dog


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## 3KP

*Next house*

I'm spose to start an 4 1/2 bath house on the 7/24 There is an jack and jill upstairs with tub and another bathroom upstairs off of bedroom 3 with a shower. On the man floor there is a kitchen & veggie sink, 1/2 bath , master bath with 2 shower valves, laundry tub and washer box, and the garage gets an laundry tub as well. In the basement is an full bath with shower unit and a bar sink. I would give you the link to the builder but I'm not sure if it's allowed. (They take pic of the house being built) 

I will keep track of how much 1/2 pex I use in this one.


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## Bill

I have never installed a manifold. I run a main line and tap into it and go to the fixture, then install a cut off at the fixture. Here Ron, even the shower valves need to have a cut off at the valve so you dont need to cut off water to the whole house.


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## plumbingpaul

clean work nice job wiping your fittings, we cannot wet vent here eithier. I absolutely hate those manablocks though :furious:! If the HO has a leak got to go to the block to shut the water off god its stupid! But otherwise nice job.


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## "DAPlumber" 101

In Wi every thing pictured would have to be done over. Code reasons. Pex manifold looks ok but the stuff in the joists is not to appealing. That is one reason I am not a proponet of pex. Just my opinion, please take no offense.:no:


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## Kyle

wholy horizontal 90 batman. we cant use 90 on the horizontal on any lines up here except vent lines and on any line we cant do that much change of direction without clean outs....


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## Plumberman

Kyle said:


> wholy horizontal 90 batman. we cant use 90 on the horizontal on any lines up here except vent lines and on any line we cant do that much change of direction without clean outs....


Long Radius 90s or Sweeps is what we call them, legal down here.


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## I'mYourTourGuide

Hey 3Kings, I wouldn't knock your plumbing for anything in the world man, but Yea, it's amazing how the code varies state-by-state. . .In Ky, none of that would pass inspection.

1. No connections to closet arms.
2. Every fixture has to connect individually to the main soil or waste line.
3. I think I may have seen a san-tee on it's side??? Can only turn them @ 45 degrees on their backs here in a waste line.

The domestic water looks good though. We rarely use pex.
Mostly CPVC and Copper


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## Protech

Ron The Plumber said:


> So how does one put a recirc on a manifold, seems it can't happen like it's planned to work?


Hot water side has local "minifolds" on insulated recirc loop. This is rarely done though. Manabloc systems are designed to be "passive" hot water savers. The savings are accomplished by properly sizing each line for the flow and pressure requirements of each fixture.

Example: A bar sink 60 feet away from WH.

On trunk and branch you have to purge about 55' of 3/4" or 1" trunk line. Not only is there more volume to purge, but the water speed will be slower. This gives the water more time and surface area to loss heat.:thumbdown:

On manabloc you have 60' of 3/8" line to purge. Less volume to purge, Less surface area. Less sharp turns and irregular surfaces to loose flow pressure. Bare plastic looses less heat than bare copper. Less pressure fluctuations. Less noise due to pipe being an elastomer as well as the lack of turbulence from fittings. Long runs of pex with no concealed fittings are virtually freeze proof(but not the manabloc itself), superior serviceability and highly modular.:thumbsup:


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## Proud Plumber

I remember the big rave over manabloc when it came out was less time waiting on hot water. It never made sense. An 80' run to the shower is still an 80' run. People still have to wait.


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## Protech

A 60ft run of 3/8 pex contains 79.49 cubic inches of water that must be purged. The same developed length of 3/4 pex would contain 317.93 cubic inches of water to be purged. That 4 times as much water to purge. This does not take surface area and water speed into account either.

Manabloc is not faster than a recirc, but it is more energy efficient and reliable.


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## 3KP

*Different Codes*

I'myourtourguide:

I'm not sure where you might of seen a tee on it's back it's against code here. ( I think what you are talking about is the last picture the Flash kinda blended the wye and st 45 and made it look like a tee)


Kyle:

I use long sweep 90's which are equivilant to st 45 & 45 glues together. Saves a little room and time. In the Basements the inspector lets us use st 45 and 45 together. By doing that they let us get away with no C/O in the basement except where the line enters the mechanical room.


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## Proud Plumber

Protech said:


> A 60ft run of 3/8 pex contains 79.49 cubic inches of water that must be purged. The same developed length of 3/4 pex would contain 317.93 cubic inches of water to be purged. That 4 times as much water to purge. This does not take surface area and water speed into account either.
> 
> Manabloc is not faster than a recirc, but it is more energy efficient and reliable.


Very true, when we first started doing them in 1992ish the bosses were out selling people on the hot water delivery time. We were putting them in big azz custom homes with long runs. When the first clients started moving in, the phone blew up. It really caused a lot of problems for them. I am still under the impression the reps still sell the system as faster hot water delivery. :thumbup:


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## Protech

They aren't lying, just stretching the truth. A properly sized manifold system is faster than a trunk and branch system with all other things being equal. They are by no means "instant" though. They should tell the truth and say "about 1/2 the wait time for hot water".



Proud Plumber said:


> Very true, when we first started doing them in 1992ish the bosses were out selling people on the hot water delivery time. We were putting them in big azz custom homes with long runs. When the first clients started moving in, the phone blew up. It really caused a lot of problems for them. I am still under the impression the reps still sell the system as faster hot water delivery. :thumbup:


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## Tankless

Protech said:


> They are by no means "instant" though. They should tell the truth and say "about 1/2 the wait time for hot water".


 
There alot of factors that go into the time to get tempered water on a mani vs. trunk layout. 1" trunk versus 3/4" that difference right there is double the time (at least) to get hot water. What I can't stand with a mani system is recirc options are either null or expensive and can only X-connect under a sink...leaving no options for a master shower or the like. In SoCal the price of water is increasing as the existing supply pipes are at their end and are getting replaced. I am getting more and more request to add in recirc systems to save water


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## Pipemaster

22rifle said:


> I can't figure out the appeal of the manifold systems. Here are the negatives I have figured out.
> 
> 1. They cost more money.
> 
> 2. They look messier.
> 
> 3. Thy take longer to install.


*Ok here's the deal, when an inspector comes out to look at your job he notices your attention to detail, he bases some if not all of his corrections on the neatness of your work. The manifold system shown above is a clean install with attention to detail. Besides looking nice, its very functional. Most homeowners are impressed by such work. The manifold sytsem provides not only for equal pressure but the ability to make easy repairs within limited times.*

*Its how it looks and how well it functions within the code. More effort means more happy customers, more happy customers, means more work **which equals that new fishing boat !*


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## Wethead

My Thoughts, 

1) Nice clean work for sure, !!

2) I agree on the 2" line thing as well, that's actually the firstthing that grabbed my eye, my boss/es would have had my arse for using fittings like that, and you could have just plumbed it different but it will work.

3) I am not really a big fan of pex but I do like the manifold system as well.


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## caseysbuilding

I'm not sure I would have done it that way but it looks real pretty. I hate the purple primer, it doesn't look as professional. The purple is good for teaching and learning tho.


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## Plumberman

caseysbuilding said:


> I'm not sure I would have done it that way but it looks real pretty. I hate the purple primer, it doesn't look as professional. The purple is good for teaching and learning tho.


The purple primer is good when the inspector requires it.....


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## user823

What color primer do you use?
Mn code: 4715.0810 subp.2. Solvent weld joints in PVC and CPVC pipe must include use of a primer of contrasting color to the pipe and cement.


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## Plumberman

ironranger said:


> What color primer do you use?
> Mn code: 4715.0810 subp.2. Solvent weld joints in PVC and CPVC pipe must include use of a primer of contrasting color to the pipe and cement.


He might dry fit em :blink:


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## stillaround

Nice work. I have a question on picture 2. What kept you from bringing the toilet straight across to the lateral to a combo and eliminate the extra 2 turns and pick everything else up in the run of the combo.


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## Plasticman

Back when we used to use soft copper under slabs, the mainifolds where usually wide. Meaning that the bottom ( or green plate ) of the plumbing wall would have to be severely knotched or cut to accomodate the piping. Looking at pex jobs with the manibloc system, I am not too sure I like it either because of all the freekin holes you have to drill in the studs. A stop on the fixture side is enough shut offs in my opinion. I don't see the need in having a panel in a home where you can shut off the water to each fixture. Plus have a stop at the fixture too. Seems like a waste. Tub valve, and shower valves, yea, nice to have a shut off there but why waste the money, pipe, and labor for another " Panel " in the laundry room or wherever and end up weakening the structure to a larger degree than necessary.


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## stillaround

I agree about questioninng the need of the panel but it does eliminate any joints in the ceiling or walls. Cpvc is king in Florida new work and it does brittle up after 10 years, but I have yet to compare the Flowgard cpvc after 10 years. I think pex is a superior plastic. We switched because the framers were nailing us silly and I was having a time collecting $100 each time they shot a pipe and fractured it to the concrete. Also once and a while we'd lose pressure on the test and when the block is off seems like if we pulled from the front they'd pull from the back to measure and missed walls got old. Pex killed a couple birds with one shot. If copper didnt pinhole so bad it would still be used more. Jacksonville's brackish water ruled it out there. 
The hospitals are all copper still and I dont know about the school board work.
To agree again, I prefer the shut-offs at the fixture.


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## SPH

Nice work!!

Love the pex manifold! Really good job, the homeowner will love that! Home run systems are the only way to run water lines in my opinon.

Wet venting is perfectly fine here, individually venting each fixture is retarded, cant believe some codes still push for that.

The only thing we couldn't use are the 90's on the horizontal for the WC.

Good work!


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## Scott K

SPH - you can use 90's on the horizontal for a W/C in BC as it is technically a trap arm, just like you can use 90's on other trap arms. Not the best practice, but still legal technically. 

I'm not a big fan of the home run system. I am a bigger fan of running a 3/4 or 1" pex lines around the house, sort of doing a "tour" of the bathroom/kitchen/laundry room, etc, and you take off tees as you need them, but don't bump the size of the line down. In effect, this is a mixing of a manifold system, and a traditional water line system, where the water mains themselves are in effect large manifolds by doing this. 

The biggest benefit I see with a manifold system is you don't see as much of an issue with pressure drop assuming not too many fixtures come on at once. Doing the system I described above allows this as well but reduces the pipe you need.


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## SPH

Scott - the problem I have with doing the "tour" is then you are stuck with having to use fitting in the ceiling space. I am not fully convinced that we won't have issues with the brass fittings in the future depending on your area and hardness of water. 

With a homerun system you are cutting down your chances of having any issues other than a pipe failure. Plus the added bonus of being able to isolate any fixture from your mechanical room.


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## SPH

And with the 90's issue, you are right we can use one, as long as we dont go over 225 deg.


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## Scott K

SPH - If Brass is an issue, then what about Copper? Are you running into Copper issues?


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## SPH

No problems with copper, but where do you get copper crimp fittings?


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## Scott K

Well crimp rings are copper, and brass is a high percentage of Copper, so why would you have issues with brass pex fittings?


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## Protech

Some water chemistries can de-zincify brass leaving a porous and brittle metal. Also known as "de-alloying". Google it.



Scott K said:


> Well crimp rings are copper, and brass is a high percentage of Copper, so why would you have issues with brass pex fittings?


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## Protech

Red brass and bronze are not effected though. It's yellow brass that you have to be careful with.


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## Protech

Here is a good set of pics of de-zincification. The white crusty stuff is the zinc that was pulled out of the brass faucet body. You'll notice that the surface of the brass is no longer yellow but brown. If you look at the brown browned brass under a microscope you see that it looks like swiss cheese. When this happens it is impossible for anything to seal against it and it becomes week and crumbly.


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## Scott K

Good to know, thanks for the info! I stand corrected...


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## PipeDreamer

Nice clean work, manifolds look great


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## user2091

we don't need no stinken vent!!!


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## user2091

i don't know about you, but i see more then one problem with codes. where i come from we are required to plumb by the UPC standards. the dwv in this picture(water closet, code requires 2'' minimum) has no vent, and if your considering it a wet vet, it's illegal too. it's on a horizontal branch and over 6' in developed lenght! upc 908.1 list could go on! 
sure looks nice. i'd like to put my level on it too!


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## Optimus Primer

bigdaddyplumber said:


> i don't know about you, but i see more then one problem with codes. where i come from we are required to plumb by the UPC standards. the dwv in this picture(water closet, code requires 2'' minimum) has no vent, and if your considering it a wet vet, it's illegal too. it's on a horizontal branch and over 6' in developed lenght! upc 908.1 list could go on!
> sure looks nice. i'd like to put my level on it too!


If you read his second post that he wrote, there is no distance from a vent on a water closet. Same with here in Florida. And a 2 inch min for a water closet? thats pretty small.


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## markb

Picture 2. Can't install a toilet here like to did in Toronto. Max 225 degrees (Two 90's and a 45) of turns before the vent.


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