# Dishwashers



## Raleigh Plumbin (May 1, 2009)

Question for plumbers doing new homes:
We have had several incidences where we install the dishwasher, caulk and test and get final inspection, only to discover down the road that the dishwasher has leaked, typically ruining a hardwood floor. We take extra precautions to make sure our connections are leak free and have now started videoing the dishwashers in action as proof that the connections were leak free when we were done. We know that flooring companies and electricians have come behind us and pulled/reset the dishwasher, but we are left footing the bill when they leak because we can't prove anything different. Is anyone else having a similar issue like this. If so what are you doing to keep from being responsible for damages. The attached photo was the latest install by a tech that's worked for us for 10 years. There's no way he left this connection like this and no way the final inspection would have passed, yet we are having to foot the flooring repair bill, again! Appreciate any feedback.


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## PlumberJake (Nov 15, 2010)

If I continually had that problem I would make sure I'm the last person to touch the dw. Don't let your guys install it until sparky and the flooring guys are done with it.


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## exclamation (Mar 11, 2013)

Tell the gc you can’t/won’t do the trim until the flooring and electric are done or you get the benefit of the doubt and gc eats it when something happens like that


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Dang, that's some BS right there. I've seen it where the electrician didn't reattach the d/w to the counter top or resupport the hose loop in the cabinet, or put it back in the hole square, but I've never had them not reattach the supply properly. I would like to think that video and/or pics of your finished work should cover yall from the blame. If that doesn't work, next time INSIST on the eletrician wiring in the pigtail before yall set it.


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## Raleigh Plumbin (May 1, 2009)

Problem is, we're first on site and will have to make a special trip back for the dishwasher. I'm considering some type of tamper proof seal that our crews can install around the connection that has to be broken in order to disconnect the DW. This way we know if it's been tampered with. If there's interest from other plumbers, I might have something made.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

The best option would to be the last one in. You can be blamed for for a flood but they have the burden of proof. It's still BS.

Being last you could finish up all the trim work, do a final inspection at the same time. 

You could have the GC sign the work is done without reserve (as is) when the hook up is made.

If you make an unremovable thing, the other trades will yank the dishwasher and damage the flex supply or the flimsy drain where you can't see it. Then you can be blamed for the contraption for not being to code?


Lastly put a hidden cam catch the culprit and show it off to everyone.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Why do you hook up the dishwasher before the flooring is done? The finished floor is supposed to be installed before the dishwasher. Also for the electrician have the wire sticking out from the front so all he has to do is remove the trim and wire it. No need for him to pull the dishwasher to get the wire stuck in the back.


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## exclamation (Mar 11, 2013)

My thoughts exactly tango - also what are the flooring guys doing about toilets and pedestal lavs? I think he’s just talking about outlet cover plates for the electricians cause he mentioned having video of the dw running when they leave it, which could be solved by having them put the outlets under the ks and not behind the dw. Either way bad situation to be paying for someone else’s mistakes - needs a sit down with the gc.


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## Cagey57 (Mar 2, 2018)

Raleigh Plumbin said:


> Problem is, we're first on site and will have to make a special trip back for the dishwasher. I'm considering some type of tamper proof seal that our crews can install around the connection that has to be broken in order to disconnect the DW. This way we know if it's been tampered with. If there's interest from other plumbers, I might have something made.


Go to the Drugstore and buy a bottle of bright red Fingernail Polish. Paint it on the fitting and you'll know if someone disconnected it !


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## limitless (Jan 5, 2018)

You can buy tamper seals for cheap for plumbing connections. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=tamper+seals is a list of plumbing tamper seals on amazon. This should fix your problem!

Brandon
LImitless Plumbing and Sewer


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## canuck92 (Apr 1, 2016)

The company i work for ( when it comes to new homes) we dont hook up the appliances and state that in the contract. Probably for reasons like this. But we will do service calls an swap out appliances.


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

Happened to me once on a remodel. Contractor had already unboxed the appliance and put it in the hole. I had to have him help me pull it out so as not to scratch the flooring that they installed UP TO the dishwasher. lain:

The electrician hadn't been there yet and i hooked up the water and checked the connection for leaks and went on my way. 

We got a call that their whole house was flooded. They had turned the dishwasher on, gone to bed and woke up to a flooded house with warped hardwood. None of my fittings leaked. It was a plastic sensor on the bottom of the tub that had cracked either in shipping or unboxing or moving into the house. 

Insurance company still tried to pin it on the plumber because we should have run a cycle on the dishwasher and checked for leaks.

Why would we EVER be responsible for a faulty unit? GTFO.


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## JohnnieSqueeze (Mar 23, 2016)

keep the ****ing shut off valve closed done deal 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Spacepirate (Jan 16, 2018)

I hate installing dishwashers.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Spacepirate said:


> I hate installing dishwashers.


I hate them too because people expect you to install them for 10$ like it was a plug in toaster.

I think I've done 2 at the most this year. Like water heaters they mostly go to the hacks. 

The worst is when they were installed before the finished floor. You can't get them out without dismantling the counter top and cutting the legs off. It gets even worse when trying to level the new one and you can't pull it out to adjust it.

The absolute crap dishwasher are Bosch, they only have one tiny channel to run the pipe and electrical as they are flat to the floor. They always get pinched or jammed underneath. When I get those There's an extra fee for the swearing that's about to ensue.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Probably regional but what due you caulk on a dishwasher?


Just curious not trying to start anything


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

PLUMB TIME said:


> Probably regional but what due you caulk on a dishwasher?
> 
> 
> Just curious not trying to start anything



That would be the first time I hear that too. AND WHERE??


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## Spacepirate (Jan 16, 2018)

Tango said:


> I hate them too because people expect you to install them for 10$ like it was a plug in toaster.
> 
> I think I've done 2 at the most this year. Like water heaters they mostly go to the hacks.
> 
> ...


Yeah lowes is advertising a basic install for $129. :surprise: For that price they can have it.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

PLUMB TIME said:


> Probably regional but what due you caulk on a dishwasher?
> 
> 
> Just curious not trying to start anything


 












When I read the orig. post I took that to mean "Caulk, grout and test" the entire final {of the fixtures} not the D\W.


Are you guys installing the D/W's without the electrical pig tail on it? You're making the electrician's job harder. You know he still has to wire the unit, why not leave it for last?

When I did new construction, first thing I did was tell the electricians if they were working in the same home with me, was 'Hey guys, the D/W and garbage disposal need to be wired. I'll leave them for you to wire and after you wire them, then I'll set them.'

The elec. W/H didn't matter, I could set that and the electricians could wire it after it was set since it didn't involve the sparky having to crawl underneath anything.


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

Normally dishwasher is set at trim out here. I will wire appliance whip at the same time I connect supply and drain. Push under cabinet, level, secure, never pull again.


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## PlumbdogTim (Apr 9, 2018)

You should have the electrician install a box under the sink for the dishwasher just like he does the garbage disposal. You can connect the plug yourself. No reason for them to have to mess with the dishwasher.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

PlumbdogTim said:


> You should have the electrician install a box under the sink for the dishwasher just like he does the garbage disposal. You can connect the plug yourself. No reason for them to have to mess with the dishwasher.


Here it has to be directly wired. No pig tail allowed. 

If the disposal didn't come with a pigtail then it is hard wired(hopefully I'm using the correct term)


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Tango said:


> Here it has to be directly wired. No pig tail allowed.
> 
> If the disposal didn't come with a pigtail then it is hard wired(hopefully I'm using the correct term)


I heard that any appliance that doesn’t come from the factory with a cord needs to be hardwired. That would include disposals, furnaces, dishwashers etc. 

Where I’m from everyone uses pigtails on all those appliances except for one city wanted hardwire for furnaces. We called it the Huntington Beach hardwire kit and it was a light switch with a round 15 amp fuse incorporated in it. The inspector that made the whole city do that retired and they’re back to allowing pigtails.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

I think the biggest issue is that you haven't made it clear when you will set the dishwasher, and that you will test it after you set and from that point forward anyone who touches it is paying the repair costs.

If someone touched a dishwasher we set and the gc saw that connection because someone pulled it and then caused a flood they would be paying the cleanup or they wouldn't work with that gc again.

Homeowner, insurance company, inspector, they may have some say but around here if you start focking other trades over you're the one who will pay and the rest of us will make sure. The guy who did that wouldn't have his company last the winter if he didn't take responsibility.


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## Mattguyver (May 20, 2017)

When we have issues like this we make the gc come and see that the unit is in proper working condition and make them sign off that our workmanship is free of defect, but not including defective material


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> If someone touched a dishwasher we set and the gc saw that connection because someone pulled it and then caused a flood they would be paying the cleanup or they wouldn't work with that gc again.
> 
> .



When I was a 4th year apprentice I had the bad luck to chop off the excess pvc for the floor drain for the gas furnaces. We'd use a hammer to break it off. We did 2 furnaces a day and someone kept piisssiing in them and I'd get 4 week old stuff splatter in my face. It made me mad and stink all day and there wasn't any running water. When the builder owner showed up I told him if I caught the guy he'd have a fractured skull and I showed him the hammer.

Trust me no one ever piissseed in them again.


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

Debo22 said:


> Tango said:
> 
> 
> > Here it has to be directly wired. No pig tail allowed.
> ...


A furnace is different than a dishwasher or disposal. Hardwire furnace. Appliance whip for the appliances. Fused switch on furnace is a nice touch, even if not code required.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

rwh said:


> A furnace is different than a dishwasher or disposal. Hardwire furnace. Appliance whip for the appliances. Fused switch on furnace is a nice touch, even if not code required.


Oops I made mistake a furnace has a switch.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> When I was a 4th year apprentice I had the bad luck to chop off the excess pvc for the floor drain for the gas furnaces. We'd use a hammer to break it off. We did 2 furnaces a day and someone kept piisssiing in them and I'd get 4 week old stuff splatter in my face. It made me mad and stink all day and there wasn't any running water. When the builder owner showed up I told him if I caught the guy he'd have a fractured skull and I showed him the hammer.
> 
> Trust me no one ever piissseed in them again.


I am sure they thought you were crazy, who shortens pipe with a hammer? You didn't have a sawzall? Or an angle grinder?


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> I am sure they thought you were crazy, who shortens pipe with a hammer? You didn't have a sawzall? Or an angle grinder?


Nope we had barely any tools. My boss put newspaper in his winter boots because he had tooney sized holed in the soles.

He stopped buying screws for strapping the pipes. He would also would hook the thermostats at night because he didn't want to buy us blades anymore to strip the wires.

Anyway the pvc was so thin 2-3 whacks and it was flush to the ground


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

Tango said:


> skoronesa said:
> 
> 
> > I am sure they thought you were crazy, who shortens pipe with a hammer? You didn't have a sawzall? Or an angle grinder?
> ...



Cellular core?


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

rwh said:


> Cellular core?


It was underground DWV PVC. It cracks just by looking at it.


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## Raleigh Plumbin (May 1, 2009)

I appreciate everyone's thoughts. Unfortunately we don;t have the luxury of not connection the dishwasher and on new construction homes, we're usually first in and first out so there's other trades that come behind us. However, I believe I found a way to ensure our dishwasher connection isn't messed with. I'm having a tamper proof cap made that clicks on around the connection at the dishwasher. The only way to disconnect the dishwasher is to destroy the protective seal that we've wrapped around the connection. No seal - no warranty!


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Raleigh Plumbin said:


> I appreciate everyone's thoughts. Unfortunately we don;t have the luxury of not connection the dishwasher and on new construction homes, we're usually first in and first out so there's other trades that come behind us. However, I believe I found a way to ensure our dishwasher connection isn't messed with. I'm having a tamper proof cap made that clicks on around the connection at the dishwasher. The only way to disconnect the dishwasher is to destroy the protective seal that we've wrapped around the connection. No seal - no warranty!



If you had a picture it doesn't show up.


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## Raleigh Plumbin (May 1, 2009)

*Dishwasher Lock OUt*

Sorry, photo didn't attach. This is what we are having made.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Raleigh Plumbin said:


> Sorry, photo didn't attach. This is what we are having made.


Didn't work again. Probably better to use an image host unless you made an error?


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

Tango said:


> Why do you hook up the dishwasher before the flooring is done? The finished floor is supposed to be installed before the dishwasher. Also for the electrician have the wire sticking out from the front so all he has to do is remove the trim and wire it. No need for him to pull the dishwasher to get the wire stuck in the back.


This. 

The plumber, at least in Toronto is one of the last trades in the kitchen. 
Once the floor, cabinets/counter is done, the dw can be installed, usually along with the sink/faucet/drain/etc. 
I do the dw’s water supply, drain and electrical, at this time.
Then the dw tested.
I always cover the machine with plastic and cardboard, and tell my client to remove this after all the work is done.


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