# I must be good



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I must be a good ... I actually brought a tear to the customer eye...

I just unfroze the water and I am writing out the bill and I tell the customer make out the check for $ 390.00

And I look up and she almost has tears in her eyes ... They were red and watering up...

I guess she was so happy she almost started crying.. I think


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Are you sure she didn't make the cheque out for $39.00?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

U666A said:


> Are you sure she didn't make the cheque out for $39.00?


Now I got to look at the cheque ...

I was in and out in less than an hour ... Maybe it was tears of laughter


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## zoharami (Jan 7, 2013)

don't you set the price before you start to work?


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Doubt she was crying for joy over $390.00, but I'm sure she was happy to have water. 

What is being done to prevent it from happening again?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

zoharami said:


> don't you set the price before you start to work?


No ... 

How would you flat rate a frozen pipe ???

I charge for the way I feel at the moment ... It's Friday .. So I figured I would need a little extra spending money ... So I over charge every one on Fridays ...

Now on Monday's I am a little more generous ...


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

I'm a sucker for tears, but I've learned how to let it go in one ear
and out the other. I give a price before doing any work and stick
to it (in most cases). When the customer starts wailing those crocodile
tears, I pat them on the hand and show some sympathy. Often times
a little freebie (toilet flapper) thrown in, helps ease the big bill pain.
I guess I'm just getting callous in my old age :laughing:


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## Aaron V (Jan 25, 2013)

OldSchool said:


> No ...
> 
> How would you flat rate a frozen pipe ???
> 
> ...


When you die i hope its on a monday and not a friday. God might decide to use the same reasoning


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Aaron V said:


> When you die i hope its on a monday and not a friday. God might decide to use the same reasoning


Enclosed is a pre-emptive "Oh Snap!" as I eagerly await OS's rebuttal... :laughing:

Now you gone and stepped in it!


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Intro????


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Aaron V said:


> When you die i hope its on a monday and not a friday. God might decide to use the same reasoning


Who are you? Awfully judge mental for a new member. You don't have the right to an opinion without an intro. 

I used to charge what I felt like, then I realized it wasn't enough... 390 for a frozen pipe isn't too bad if it took a while.


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## Aaron V (Jan 25, 2013)

Sorry guys. I would love to intro myself but having a tough time learning the app. Give me a little time. But just to qualify myself January third I celebrated 20 yrs in buiseness- residential contracting. Yea, my comment was sorta harsh but made ya think i bet... Is this where i insert a smiley?


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

No, it's where you insert your other foot...


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## Adamche (Feb 10, 2012)

Yeah and post an intro.....no excuses. RJ will be here soon


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

Aaron V said:


> When you die i hope its on a monday and not a friday. God might decide to use the same reasoning



LOL. He might have a point.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

Adamche said:


> Yeah and post an intro.....no excuses. RJ will be here soon


(Licks lips)


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

Aaron V said:


> When you die i hope its on a monday and not a friday. God might decide to use the same reasoning


Nothing to do with the fees from the op but I just about fell outa my chair laughing lol


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

OldSchool said:



> No ...
> 
> How would you flat rate a frozen pipe ???
> 
> ...


I am curious about this. At times I have A job like this one and, if I charge by the hour It's say 159$ and I know that it should be 250$ at least. And we didn't agree on any price, I just know I can fall back on " my hourly rate". How do you justify. I need to do this more OS.


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

RW Plumbing said:


> Who are you? Awfully judge mental for a new member. You don't have the right to an opinion without an intro.
> 
> I used to charge what I felt like, then I realized it wasn't enough... *390 for a frozen pipe isn't too bad if it took a while.*


He said it took less than an hour, I'm sorry but that woman got raped.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Aaron V said:


> When you die i hope its on a monday and not a friday. God might decide to use the same reasoning


If I die on a Friday by the time they show me off to the crowd and plant me in the ground I would get the Monday special price...

The undertaker more than likely will not give me a deal because he knows I will only be a one time customer...

I know Fridays and Sat is busy for God and we all know he doesn't work on Sundays .... So more than likely I will just float around until they open shop on Monday..


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Titletownplumbr said:


> He said it took less than an hour, I'm sorry but that woman got raped.


It wasn't rape it was my Friday special price ...


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Did I already post "Oh snap!"?

...why yes, yes I did! :laughing:


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

I think OS was posting they were in the - temps all week. $390 is a steal.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

DesertOkie said:


> I think OS was posting they were in the - temps all week. $390 is a steal.


It seems to fairly consistently at least 15°C colder where OS is from where I am and I haven't seen it above -10°C this week. I know he reported at let once it was -36°C. Considering propane boils at what, -40°? That's pretty freaking cold!!!


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

DesertOkie said:


> I think OS was posting they were in the - temps all week. $390 is a steal.


I actually though it was inexpensive .... I only had to use my mapp gas torch ...

Got to look at it this way ...

To hire a plumber is a luxury and to have water and sewer is a necessity ...

Add those two together and it's very expensive ...

This is the difference with service and construction ..

Most service is an emergency for the customer or they would not call ..

Now add luxury, necessity and emergency and wha la ... Instant high invoice ...


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Damn... That's quite a bit to charge for zero material and in and out in under an hour.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Maybe she was crying because you forgot the lube? :laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

U666A said:


> Maybe she was crying because you forgot the lube? :laughing:


I though water would be lube enough


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> I though water would be lube enough


And maybe a little bit of blood?
Eww...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

So would it have been better if OS charged $90hr and dinked around for 4 hours trying to figure out a solution?

Last time I checked, the guy on the track the least amount of time gets the most money.

She was not paying for time, she was paying for results.


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> So would it have been better if OS charged $90hr and dinked around for 4 hours trying to figure out a solution?
> 
> Last time I checked, the guy on the track the least amount of time gets the most money.
> 
> She was not paying for time, she was paying for results.


I think your justification is hilarious, you make it sound like it's brain surgery. Alot of other plumbers could have given her the same result for considerably less, I know I could have.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I put it this way ...

If a customer can afford to hire you everyday your price is to cheap...

She said time was of the essence because she wanted to go shopping ...

Well you know from that .. That she has disposable income...

Now add the fact that I also wanted to take the wife out to dinner and a movie .. So I needed some disposable income ... And seeing that she had some I knew I was going out tonight ....


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> I put it this way ...
> 
> If a customer can afford to hire you everyday your price is to cheap...
> 
> ...



Now that's lmfao funny :thumbsup:.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> I put it this way ...
> 
> If a customer can afford to hire you everyday your price is to cheap...
> 
> ...


I can't help but smirk knowing that at the same time you're dead serious AND trying to stir the pot!
:laughing: :thumbup:


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

U666A said:


> I can't help but smirk knowing that at the same time you're dead serious AND trying to stir the pot!
> :laughing: :thumbup:


Seems to me you know OS better than some of these guys that are giving him crap...

I been smirking myself.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

SewerRat said:


> Seems to me you know OS better than some of these guys that are giving him crap...
> 
> I been smirking myself.


You've been around a while pal, are you sensing a pattern?

It IS Friday night! :laughing:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Titletownplumbr said:


> I think your justification is hilarious, you make it sound like it's brain surgery. Alot of other plumbers could have given her the same result for considerably less, I know I could have.


Well sure you could. anybody (including OS) COULD have done it for less. In fact OS could probably have afforded to do it for free but that is not the point. I agree the arbitrary way he described the situation sounds cold but he's booked out three months or more and took the emergency call anyway.

Plumbers routinely charge time and a half or even double time just because a call is inconvenient. What makes this any different?


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

BRB, gone for popcorn! :lol:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

U666A said:


> I can't help but smirk knowing that at the same time you're dead serious AND trying to stir the pot!
> :laughing: :thumbup:


The funny thing I am serious ... This is why I celebrate ever Friday night ... 

Fridays I charge a premium ... Gibson finest is expensive and like everything else the customer has to pay for it ... 

What you guys think I am going to use my own money ... That would be just crazy ...


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> The funny thing I am serious ... This is why I celebrate ever Friday night ...
> 
> Fridays I charge a premium ... Gibson finest is expensive and like everything else the customer has to pay for it ...
> 
> What you guys think I am going to use my own money ... That would be just crazy ...


I was just fishing through my gallery for this when you posted that
:laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

You guys are starting to make me feel guilty that I didn't charge her more ...

Her eyes just watered up ... I don't think anything rolled down her cheek ...


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

STAHP! *slaps knee

Tears are streaming down my cheeks from laughing so hard!

Pour yourself a drink on me bud!


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

U666A said:


> ....Tears are streaming down my cheeks...


Did you just get your pipes thawed out?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

So what is the consensus ...

Did she have tears of joy for getting water?

Or

Were they tears of shock ???

Was it expensive ???

Am I arsehole for billing for what I think it's worth ?


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> Did you just get your pipes thawed out?


And how! Trust me, OS was worth every penny! :laughing:


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> So what is the consensus ...
> ???
> 
> Am I arsehole?


Yes, full stop
:jester: :laughing:

Edit: Yes, I'm aware I'm gunna git it for this! :jester:


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

I think the tears meant that she would only be purchasing her new Lexus this trip... the Armani gown will have to wait til the next pay period.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

SewerRat said:


> I think the tears meant that she would only be purchasing her new Lexus this trip... the Armani gown will have to wait til the next pay period.


Now you're catching on! :laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

U666A said:


> Yes, full stop
> :jester: :laughing:
> 
> Edit: Yes, I'm aware I'm gunna git it for this! :jester:


I never said I wasn't an arsehole ... So you are safe ...

So the question is .... WHY DO I PLUMB

Do you think it could be for the money ...?

Certainly isn't the joy of play in people's crap...because I would do that for free


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Nobody said booked out for three months , this was arbitrary Friday pricing....isnt it the price not being the issue but rather its the suggestion to go ahead and stick it, because I can, and what the heck, Friday is as good a reason as any. Something here dont smell right.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Money makes the world go round and keeps the Missus happy. :yes:

Tears of regret that she didn't marry a plumber.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Stillaround - Not in this thread, but elsewhere OS mentioned having too much work.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I guess I dont believe the story as it has been told.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

stillaround said:


> Nobody said booked out for three months , this was arbitrary Friday pricing....isnt it the price not being the issue but rather its the suggestion to go ahead and stick it, because I can, and what the heck, Friday is as good a reason as any. Something here dont smell right.


Had my boys working at a school changing zone valves and changing boiler feed and some controls .. So I figured I will sneak out and grab some Friday money ...

The truth of the matter this is how I charge ... Now trying to get my guys to do that is a struggle ...


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> I never said I wasn't an arsehole ... So you are safe ...
> 
> So the question is .... WHY DO I PLUMB
> 
> ...


I for one would never question your scruples friend, as aside from our private conversations, you post evidence in open forum on a regular basis that speaks for itself.

The factoid that screams to me the most is that with 5 trucks on the road, equipped with men and equipment that YOU put your name on, there are many customers who won't let ANYONE but you enter their home or business...

Being more than just a name in a phonebook in a town of 160,000+ people, and being the ONLY trusted name by many takes quite some time and effort to build.

I say good on you, charge what you can, and remember me in your will...
:laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

stillaround said:


> I guess I dont believe the story as it has been told.


I wouldn't have wrote it if it wasn't true ... This is the first time I notice some getting all teary eyed over an invoice ...

But it happen ... I can see if I charged $ 3,000.00 I might get a reaction ...

Right now we are three months behind .. So I guess my billing is going up ...supply and demand might have some thing to do about it...


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> ...
> 
> The truth of the matter this is how I charge ... Now trying to get my guys to do that is a struggle ...


Being totally neurotic isn't contagious, you can't just will it on your employees...
LMFAO I'm on fire tonight!


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> So what is the consensus ...
> 
> Did she have tears of joy for getting water?
> 
> ...


No you are correct.

I personally take great pleasure in, and am in need of the Old School of arseholes.... It's just a fast track to the crotchety train I'm already on.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I dont believe, OS, you rip reople, but I will go out and say you might embellish a story once and a while.


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

U666A said:


> I can't help but smirk knowing that at the same time you're dead serious AND trying to stir the pot!
> :laughing: :thumbup:


No stillaround I think this is accurate. Lol


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

I'll explain.

OS got a call for a frozen water line from an extremely wealthy actress living alone in a very high end home. He told her he was too busy but she said she'd seen his photograph on some of his advertising and no one else would do (she's a rich person who can afford hire strictly for looks vs skill). Anyway he tried to wriggle out of it but no, she promised to "make it worth your time." So he went there and did his job and, being the naive ruggedly good-looking professional plumber that he is, failed to take the cue and made it worth his time. Being an actress, tears of gratefulness were easy to come by, although there may have been some disappointment involved.

They both held up their end of the deal and tonight OS's wife got taken to a nice dinner and the customer went shopping without being delayed by a slow hack.

Get it? Does anybody have any questions? Is everybody happy now? 

OK, class dismissed.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

stillaround said:


> I dont believe, OS, you rip reople, but I will go out and say you might embellish a story once and a while.


Sorry but it's the truth ... 

I have been pounding away at this business for along time ...

I try to always be the most expensive guy in town ... And everybody knows it...

Very seldom do I ever get a complaint .. Maybe one every 6 months.. Which let's me know I am still not charging enough...

I don't charge customers thinking what I would pay ... Because I am a cheap azz...

So that is out of the equation... 

I made rules along time ago that I follow and that is to make my business as profitable as possible..... No matter how much it hurts


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

SewerRat said:


> I'll explain.
> 
> OS got a call for a frozen water line from an extremely wealthy actress living alone in a very high end home. He told her he was too busy but she said she'd seen his photograph on some of his advertising and no one else would do (she's a rich person who can afford hire strictly for looks vs skill). Anyway he tried to wriggle out of it but no, she promised to "make it worth your time." So he went there and did his job and, being the naive ruggedly good-looking professional plumber that he is, failed to take the cue and made it worth his time. Being an actress, tears of gratefulness were easy to come by, although there may have been some disappointment involved.
> 
> ...


Srsly, I'm gonna piss my drawers before this thread comes to rest!
:laughing:


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

U666A said:


> I for one would never question your scruples friend, as aside from our private conversations, you post evidence in open forum on a regular basis that speaks for itself.
> 
> The factoid that screams to me the most is that with 5 trucks on the road, equipped with men and equipment that YOU put your name on, there are many customers who won't let ANYONE but you enter their home or business...
> 
> ...





OldSchool said:


> Sorry but it's the truth ...
> 
> I have been pounding away at this business for along time ...
> 
> ...


The defence rests...


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

U666A said:


> The defence rests...


So what .. You heading to bed ?


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

You kidding? This is just getting good! :laughing:

I just put on "Seven Psychopaths" again...


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I can tell you right now that this is a true story ...

As the week goes on the higher the price gets ...

Monday being the cheapest and Sunday the most expensive ...

By Wednesday our prices start to escalate .... Lots of stuff we flat rate ... So on Monday our price is less and as the week goes I start to raise it ...

On Friday every one wants off early ... So to discourage any one from hiring us the price goes up ...

I know it sounds crazy ... But we only need 40 hours a week with out any over time to be very comfortable ...

So yes our increase in rates is to weed out customers ... Weird but true...


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Os. Do you have a monopoly in your area ????


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

aaron v said:


> when you die i hope its on a monday and not a friday. God might decide to use the same reasoning


This actually made me laugh out loud.

The thought of what many believe to be an omnipotent being having a case of the Mondays makes my own beliefs even stronger.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Os. Do you have a monopoly in your area ????


I wish .....

There just seems to be more work than there is plumbing and heating companies...

The small jobs I usually try to direct to other plumbing companies... There is five companies that I send work to all the time ...

I figure it this way ... If I consume them with low margin high labour time they will have to refuse the more larger profitable jobs ...

This strategy seems to work .... and on the same note they send the larger jobs my way because they are booked up...

These other companies I mentor ... Showing them how to price higher...and how to deal with customers... I also share technical advise with them ...I can't have them screwing up if I recommended them ...


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Dam ur old. And dam ur wise. YODA II.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

A few years ago, I would have been with many of you thinking OS is charging way too much and is a scoundrel. I didn't believe I was worth the money. Now I see things a bit differently. I come out and solve problems no one else can solve. I am punctual, professional and worth the money. I want to learn how to establish myself as the technical expert of my area, not compete with the Craigslist plumber. If they want the low price clown, let them have that quality work. If they want expert recommendations, and high quality service, they should grab their wallet. As far as the arbitrary nature of his charging, so what. 

The real question you should be asking is how can I establish myself as the expert in my city or town. How can I be viewed as expensive, but worth it. I know that's the question I'm asking after threads like this. No customer is going to send me an extra check if I fall short on bills one month. None of your customers give a shiot if you make your bills, just when are you going to fix my problem.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Consumers have a responsibility to do their own research before hiring a contractor. OS did the job he was hired to do. His customer did not ask a price or get other estimates.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I just came back from two furnace sales in the same building ...

So the customer wants to replace two of the furnaces ... So he says can I give him a lower price such as a two for one deal ..

I said sure I will give you two furnaces for one big price...

We all start laughing .. I think this is the way I get around it ... I joke a lot with the customers ..


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

It is my intention to become the best around and have people call my company because of results not cost. 

I would rather make $300.00 in one hour than make $100.00 per hour for three hours of work. 

Telling someone else what they should or shouldn't charge is an act of foolishness.


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

There's alot to be said for building a customer base where you start hearing
comments like, "man, you guys are expensive, but we love your company."
and...
"I don't mind paying a higher price for your service, you guys ALWAYS do
such a great job."
and...
"We've never had trouble getting someone out from your company, when
we need a problem fixed right away."
and...
"You're the third plumber we've had over to look at this and the only
one who was able to fix it. You guys are worth every penny."


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## jasonp (Jan 24, 2013)

A brain surgeon had a plumbing emergency late one night and called the 24 hr plumbing service. The plumber figured out the problem, fixed it and handed the doctor the bill. The surgeon gasped and exclaimed, "WHAT! I don't even charge this much an hour for brain surgery!" The plumber calmly replied, "I know. I used to say that too when I was a brain surgeon."


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

RW Plumbing said:


> A few years ago, I would have been with many of you thinking OS is charging way too much and is a scoundrel. I didn't believe I was worth the money. Now I see things a bit differently. I come out and solve problems no one else can solve. I am punctual, professional and worth the money. I want to learn how to establish myself as the technical expert of my area, not compete with the Craigslist plumber. If they want the low price clown, let them have that quality work. If they want expert recommendations, and high quality service, they should grab their wallet. As far as the arbitrary nature of his charging, so what.
> 
> The real question you should be asking is how can I establish myself as the expert in my city or town. How can I be viewed as expensive, but worth it. I know that's the question I'm asking after threads like this. No customer is going to send me an extra check if I fall short on bills one month. None of your customers give a shiot if you make your bills, just when are you going to fix my problem.


^^^absolutely!

In the first incarnation of my plumbing business (the one I ran into the ground), I worked 7 days a week. When I started, I was a pretty good "service tech" but I was NOT an excellent plumber. I charged too little and worked my butt off. When I ended it, we were billing at $65 per hour, and I made a decent living, but had watched from the outside as my kids grew up without me, my wife was miserable and lonely, and my family grew to know me as "the relative who was never there." I learned a tremendous amount about plumbing, and after my first run, and almost 9 years in commercial new construction (working for someone else), I have become an expert. 

In my new business, I charge much more...
Much like the OP, my prices reflect how I feel at the moment. I have not broken it down by days of the week, or anything, but to me OS's system seems like an honest representation of his values. He knows what it is worth to him, and he sticks to it. If a customer doesn't like it... They can call someone else.

For me, if I quote you a price (sometimes I flat rate up front, sometimes I don't), it always includes : some for the materials and labor. some for business profit and overhead. Some for swallowing that feeling I had when I had to tell my wife I wouldn't be home until late again for so many years. Some for every crappy slime hole I found myself in for years while I was learning how to be an expert. Some for every moment I missed when my kids were little, and another little bit because I am really good at what I do.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

jasonp said:


> A brain surgeon had a plumbing emergency late one night and called the 24 hr plumbing service. The plumber figured out the problem, fixed it and handed the doctor the bill. The surgeon gasped and exclaimed, "WHAT! I don't even charge this much an hour for brain surgery!" The plumber calmly replied, "I know. I used to say that too when I was a brain surgeon."


I know the joke. I've had real doctors say similar things except they DON'T know how much their time is billed for, just what they get paid. We might present a bill that cost more than they make, but they are billed in the thousands to insurance companies.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

As long as he can get it and the phone keeps ringing so be it.


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

This whole thread has really got my brain turning on what and how I charge for what we do. 

Those of you that charge on how you feel, what do you actually list on the invoice? If you don't mind sharing...

Simply description of work with cost? Do you even bother with an hourly rate for some of this stuff?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

JoshJ said:


> This whole thread has really got my brain turning on what and how I charge for what we do.
> 
> Those of you that charge on how you feel, what do you actually list on the invoice? If you don't mind sharing...
> 
> Simply description of work with cost? Do you even bother with an hourly rate for some of this stuff?


I just right down a number on where it says labour... No explanation ...

If they want one I tell them verbally ..


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

That's the way I do it. I price the job for what I feel is fair. Just a flat rate. No breakdown. 

Every job is different.


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Am I flat rate? Am i hourly? 

Neither. I suppose I'm a mix of both. I know what I need to charge to be in business for the future. I have many ways of setting my price as per call basis. 

Tone of client, location, task, and total time I guesstimate it will take. I could receive 2 of the same calls in a day and they could be hundreds of dollars difference.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

I started flat rate. It's been better for bottom line. But it's been hard change for my existing customers. I just hope I didn't Change over to late. My old pricing I was going bankrupt. My j man I gave him the guide lines for FR. Trip charge. He cracks me up. He makes more money for the company than I ask for. He is great with people. But on the other coin he gets call backs. I'm working with him on that.


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## phishfood (Nov 18, 2012)

Plumberman911 said:


> I started flat rate. It's been better for bottom line. But it's been hard change for my existing customers. I just hope I didn't Change over to late. My old pricing I was going bankrupt. My j man I gave him the guide lines for FR. Trip charge. *He cracks me up.* He makes more money for the company than I ask for. He is great with people. *But on the other coin he gets call backs.* I'm working with him on that.


Call backs, as in multiple, aren't good. Maybe you should crack HIM up. 

Didn't you just hire him a short time ago?


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

Ya just hired him about the first of the month. Seems like residential service. Every call he has done I get a call back. Vary frustrating. I don't get call backs. It makes us look bad.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Plumberman911 said:


> Ya just hired him about the first of the month. Seems like residential service. Every call he has done I get a call back. Vary frustrating. I don't get call backs. It makes us look bad.


You get call backs too, just there not calling you back, there calling me lol


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

Well at least their getting the best then. Everyone gets one sometimes but every job. One job four times. I'm going this time


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Yea I had to let my helper go, he was driving me nuts. I roll solo now


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I get call backs sometimes but I shoot for 95% or better between them. Going back for every job will bankrupt your company pretty quick.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

Ya. Noting about it is good. Guys are hard to come by. Not sure what to do yet. I'm to busy for solo. But this isn't any good either. 
Do I make him fix them off the clock to teach him to pay attention. I mean, what does it take. I tell them take enough time to do it right.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Plumberman911 said:


> Ya. Noting about it is good. Guys are hard to come by. Not sure what to do yet. I'm to busy for solo. But this isn't any good either.
> Do I make him fix them off the clock to teach him to pay attention. I mean, what does it take. I tell them take enough time to do it right.


Tell him I'm gonna send u to Abilene for a week and jay will straighten u up !!!!


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Plumberman911 said:


> Ya. Noting about it is good. Guys are hard to come by. Not sure what to do yet. I'm to busy for solo. But this isn't any good either.
> Do I make him fix them off the clock to teach him to pay attention. I mean, what does it take. I tell them take enough time to do it right.


You technically cannot make him work for no pay. When I worked for someone else I did all my call backs off the clock but, that was by choice not forced. Write out a formal write up sheet every time he has a call back. Make him sign each one, and briefly discuss it with him. This will do two things, cover your backside if you decide to fire him and give you some ammo if you keep him around and he asks for a raise. 

You have to make sure you do a good job keeping track for now.


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

Where do you all get your flat rate pricing from? Make it based on your past experience with common jobs? 

I like the idea, just not sure how to put it in place in my small town of >10,000.

Thoughts? Books or articles to read? This is one area I know I need input. I can plumb as well as the next guy, better than many. But I'm too soft with my prices and the time I bill for.


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

JoshJ said:


> Where do you all get your flat rate pricing from? Make it based on your past experience with common jobs?
> 
> I like the idea, just not sure how to put it in place in my small town of >10,000.
> 
> Thoughts? Books or articles to read? This is one area I know I need input. I can plumb as well as the next guy, better than many. But I'm too soft with my prices and the time I bill for.


Start here softy...

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f4/more-than-owning-job-17477/


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I do not care how anybody does their pricing. What someone charges is up to them. I will never say someone charges too much conversely I will say if someone is charging way to low. You’re worth more than that. Something to think about especially in the states and that is you want a pricing manual that shows your flat rate charges or your hourly rate. All it takes is 1 time to get turned into the state for taking advantage of the elderly and you will lose. When you say I charged because that is the way I felt at that time you have now opened up an investigation of all your paperwork. When they see similar job descriptions completed and some are much higher than the others you’re fried.

When you charge as you feel that day or time and cannot prove that you are consistent they will have fun with you.

I love the fact oldschool is all for higher pay, raising standards in our industry however be careful of what you put in print and practice and make sure you and your company are protected.


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

JoshJ said:


> Where do you all get your flat rate pricing from? Make it based on your past experience with common jobs?
> 
> I like the idea, just not sure how to put it in place in my small town of >10,000.
> 
> Thoughts? Books or articles to read? This is one area I know I need input. I can plumb as well as the next guy, better than many. But I'm too soft with my prices and the time I bill for.


If you are busy everyday, and aren't having trouble getting work, double your hourly rate, and then estimate about how long it will take you to do the job, and give that as a flat price. Explain to people that ask, that you were losing money at the old prices, and the new prices are what you need to stay in business and grow. Then... Make sure you are doing excellent work. Don't band-aid stuff, fix the WHOLE problem. Make sure you don't have to go back for the same problem for a long time, if ever (drain calls not included where applicable). I do far fewer calls with this method than I did with my first company, but make more money. It does you no good to run money through your company that you don't get to keep. Become the plumber that does it the right way the first time.

Running a business is different from being a plumber. If you've been in business for a whole year, do the math. Add up everything you made, and everything you paid. See how much is left. There has to be enough to pay yourself a salary you would be willing to work for, AND enough for the business to make profit.


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

Plumberman911 said:


> Ya. Noting about it is good. Guys are hard to come by. Not sure what to do yet. I'm to busy for solo. But this isn't any good either.
> Do I make him fix them off the clock to teach him to pay attention. I mean, what does it take. I tell them take enough time to do it right.


Maybe he needs to ride with you for a week, and be shown how to do good work. Are these call backs from things he doesn't know, or are they careless mistakes?


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

RW Plumbing said:


> You technically cannot make him work for no pay. When I worked for someone else I did all my call backs off the clock but, that was by choice not forced. Write out a formal write up sheet every time he has a call back. Make him sign each one, and briefly discuss it with him. This will do two things, cover your backside if you decide to fire him and give you some ammo if you keep him around and he asks for a raise.
> 
> You have to make sure you do a good job keeping track for now.


Back in the day when I had employees, I would set them up on hourly wage or commission which ever was greater.

If the employee had call backs the time would be counted and his hourly wage would be lower dur to call backs. 

Lets say his base wage was $20 per hour or 30% of the net from all the jobs in the pay period.

He worked 40 hours @ $20 each = $800 

His gross sales - job parts = $4000 x 30% commission he would get $1200

That $1200 would include the time he wasted doing call backs.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> I do not care how anybody does their pricing. What someone charges is up to them. I will never say someone charges too much conversely I will say if someone is charging way to low. You&#146;re worth more than that. Something to think about especially in the states and that is you want a pricing manual that shows your flat rate charges or your hourly rate. All it takes is 1 time to get turned into the state for taking advantage of the elderly and you will lose. When you say I charged because that is the way I felt at that time you have now opened up an investigation of all your paperwork. When they see similar job descriptions completed and some are much higher than the others you&#146;re fried.
> 
> When you charge as you feel that day or time and cannot prove that you are consistent they will have fun with you.
> 
> I love the fact oldschool is all for higher pay, raising standards in our industry however be careful of what you put in print and practice and make sure you and your company are protected.


Plumbing and heating is not like selling big Mac's

Every job is different and you think some one can look at paper work and determined from a similar job that you over charged ... I think that is a stretch 

Every job is a custom order ... They may sound similar ... They may look similar but in all essence every single one are custom ...


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

Good thoughts. Love the article from "More than owning a job" article! And the ideas for setting up a flat rate!
:thumbup:


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

Richard Hilliard said:


> I do not care how anybody does their pricing. What someone charges is up to them. I will never say someone charges too much conversely I will say if someone is charging way to low. You&#146;re worth more than that. Something to think about especially in the states and that is you want a pricing manual that shows your flat rate charges or your hourly rate. All it takes is 1 time to get turned into the state for taking advantage of the elderly and you will lose. When you say I charged because that is the way I felt at that time you have now opened up an investigation of all your paperwork. When they see similar job descriptions completed and some are much higher than the others you&#146;re fried.
> 
> When you charge as you feel that day or time and cannot prove that you are consistent they will have fun with you.
> 
> I love the fact oldschool is all for higher pay, raising standards in our industry however be careful of what you put in print and practice and make sure you and your company are protected.


I can see the point you are making, but am not worried about it. You are talking about something different. I do not raise my prices for people who are incapable of making informed choices to try and steal from them. When I hire employees again I will put in place some guidelines to keep them from doing that, but MY prices vary depending on what it is worth to ME at the time. As a OMS the customer is hiring ME at that moment, and my prices may vary from customer to customer for lots of reasons the customer may or may not know.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

mightypipe said:


> Maybe he needs to ride with you for a week, and be shown how to do good work. Are these call backs from things he doesn't know, or are they careless mistakes?


He may need to. He said he is a commercial j man. He is slow at that but no real complaints. I think service is a learning thing. I don't want to make him think I think he's dumb. But I don't believe he knows much. He pulled a cartridge out of a PP kitchen faucet told HO it was the diverter an was ok. HO knew it was under the sink. Oh my what do you say. I showed up and smoothed it over. But this same job it's my j man fourth trip back. No no I'm going now. But come on. I can explain and train but new at being boss w/ jman. 

Thanks for heads up. I won't make him fix them for free. I did as a jman. If my boss complained and I knew it was my fault due to lack of attention or detail. He has two call backs tomorrow. I feel I should do them but I'm so dam busy I don't have time to go back and fix his mistakes. But I don't want to loose customers either. I guess a heart to heart is needed.


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

Plumberman911 said:


> . I feel I should do them but I'm so dam busy I don't have time to go back and fix his mistakes. But I don't want to loose customers either. I guess a heart to heart is needed.



It may feel counterintuitive at this point, but it might be time for you to start raising prices. If you are swamped at your current rates, you may want to thin the herd a little. This might give you a little time to get your guy up and running. I know how scary it can feel to lose customers, but if your work is impeccable you will always have customers.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

Could be. Just went from hrly to FR. My whole plumbing career has been hourly. FR is new to me. If I could get my commercial to pay I'd add a truck. But I guess tat would be dumb till I can figure out how to get the j man I have trained. His spring my restaurants start back up. Suppose to do around ten this year. Plus my other work.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Plumberman911 said:


> I guess a heart to heart is needed.


To say the least. I had a "Jman" working for me that was a really cool guy and had a truly beautiful family. Had to love this guy but his plumbing talents sucked so bad the call backs were as you speak of, but not only that some of my regs very soon still called buttt said "*don't send that guy back*".
Some other things went on as well but ultimately had to let him go. I lost customers thx to him. BTW, I was going on his callbacks to see what was happening. 
This is the thing though, he will eventually flood or burn a house down. Maybe worse. Best get this straightened out ASAP.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

Epox said:


> To say the least. I had a "Jman" working for me that was a really cool guy and had a truly beautiful family. Had to love this guy but his plumbing talents sucked so bad the call backs were as you speak of, but not only that some of my regs very soon still called buttt said "don't send that guy back".
> Some other things went on as well but ultimately had to let him go. I lost customers thx to him. BTW, I was going on his callbacks to see what was happening.
> This is the thing though, he will eventually flood or burn a house down. Maybe worse. Best get this straightened out ASAP.


Thank you


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

I already told you that. Ur to nice. An ass chewing is needed. Let me do it like bickhing at people !! Ask my wife.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I already told you that. Ur to nice. An ass chewing is needed. Let me do it like bickhing at people !! Ask my wife.


Thanks for having my back. I am to nice.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

mightypipe said:


> I can see the point you are making, but am not worried about it. You are talking about something different. I do not raise my prices for people who are incapable of making informed choices to try and steal from them. When I hire employees again I will put in place some guidelines to keep them from doing that, but MY prices vary depending on what it is worth to ME at the time. As a OMS the customer is hiring ME at that moment, and my prices may vary from customer to customer for lots of reasons the customer may or may not know.


 

A quoted Hvac, sewer, or re-pipe remodel or replacement job is much different than service work and that is the point of this thread. This is about a service job and pricing what you feel it should be right now due to how you feel at that time. The correct legal term for it is price gouging. I used the elderly to make a point. Take a look at lawsuits or accusations in the service industry and you will discover the majority of lawsuits/accusations are for alleged price gouging. Need more proof, take a look at on line complaints which are mostly aimed at the price verse the work performed.

Your prices need to be consistent with the rest of your pricing. If you want your pricing at 350 an hour make them 350 an hour. Where it can bite you is if you are at 150 an hour and then decide to charge someone 400 for the same job. The chances are slim that 1 person will turn the trick, gain a reputation for this and you will have trouble.

Nowhere did I say Oldschool did wrong and I am not implying that either. I applaud him for higher rates and raising standards. I am stating to protect your ass and the company you work for or own. Someone just posted something where the viewing public had in a file, something 2 years old from this site.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> A quoted Hvac, sewer, or re-pipe remodel or replacement job is much different than service work and that is the point of this thread. This is about a service job and pricing what you feel it should be right now due to how you feel at that time. The correct legal term for it is price gouging. I used the elderly to make a point. Take a look at lawsuits or accusations in the service industry and you will discover the majority of lawsuits/accusations are for alleged price gouging. Need more proof, take a look at on line complaints which are mostly aimed at the price verse the work performed.
> 
> Your prices need to be consistent with the rest of your pricing. If you want your pricing at 350 an hour make them 350 an hour. Where it can bite you is if you are at 150 an hour and then decide to charge someone 400 for the same job. The chances are slim that 1 person will turn the trick, gain a reputation for this and you will have trouble.
> 
> Nowhere did I say Oldschool did wrong and I am not implying that either. I applaud him for higher rates and raising standards. I am stating to protect your ass and the company you work for or own. Someone just posted something where the viewing public had in a file, something 2 years old from this site.


You have a good point.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> You have a good point.


Look at it this way ... After customers reading this no matter what you charge them they will think they are getting a great deal ... 

Just tell them if they think your price was high they could have got an oldschool bill for the job instead


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

Richard Hilliard said:


> A quoted Hvac, sewer, or re-pipe remodel or replacement job is much different than service work and that is the point of this thread. This is about a service job and pricing what you feel it should be right now due to how you feel at that time. The correct legal term for it is price gouging. I used the elderly to make a point. Take a look at lawsuits or accusations in the service industry and you will discover the majority of lawsuits/accusations are for alleged price gouging. Need more proof, take a look at on line complaints which are mostly aimed at the price verse the work performed.
> 
> Your prices need to be consistent with the rest of your pricing. If you want your pricing at 350 an hour make them 350 an hour. Where it can bite you is if you are at 150 an hour and then decide to charge someone 400 for the same job. The chances are slim that 1 person will turn the trick, gain a reputation for this and you will have trouble.
> 
> Nowhere did I say Oldschool did wrong and I am not implying that either. I applaud him for higher rates and raising standards. I am stating to protect your ass and the company you work for or own. Someone just posted something where the viewing public had in a file, something 2 years old from this site.


Again, I see your point... But I'm still not worried about it. For it to be illegal price gouging, someone would have to prove that I am charging higher than the going rate for a given market, and I'm not. For every one of my jobs, I can call a dozen plumbing companies who would charge more... In many cases, MUCH more. I am not trying to push the envelope on pricing. I simply charge based on what it is worth to me to do the job at that moment. Sometimes it goes the other way too. If I've had a great day or week monetarily, And the job is fairly small, the customer may get a great deal. There are a lot of factors that can weigh on my decisions because I am a real person. I am not a business machine. Sometimes I don't feel good, I'm tired, I'm sick, my wife wants me home... And if you call me at those times, the price is likely to be higher than it would if I feel great, and have plenty of time.

Like I said before, when it is time for me to hire employees and grow the business I will probably be more concerned with this issue, but right now, I'm not. 

I am always considerate of people who are not mentally equipped (for whatever reason) to make 'big boy' choices. A contract with such a person would not be valid anyway... So again, I am not worried about being accused of taking advantage of people who cannot legally or otherwise make sound, informed decisions, because I don't.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

mightypipe said:


> Again, I see your point... But I'm still not worried about it. For it to be illegal price gouging, someone would have to prove that I am charging higher than the going rate for a given market, and I'm not. For every one of my jobs, I can call a dozen plumbing companies who would charge more... In many cases, MUCH more. I am not trying to push the envelope on pricing. I simply charge based on what it is worth to me to do the job at that moment. Sometimes it goes the other way too. If I've had a great day or week monetarily, And the job is fairly small, the customer may get a great deal. There are a lot of factors that can weigh on my decisions because I am a real person. I am not a business machine. Sometimes I don't feel good, I'm tired, I'm sick, my wife wants me home... And if you call me at those times, the price is likely to be higher than it would if I feel great, and have plenty of time.
> 
> Like I said before, when it is time for me to hire employees and grow the business I will probably be more concerned with this issue, but right now, I'm not.
> 
> I am always considerate of people who are not mentally equipped (for whatever reason) to make 'big boy' choices. A contract with such a person would not be valid anyway... So again, I am not worried about being accused of taking advantage of people who cannot legally or otherwise make sound, informed decisions, because I don't.


 

Does not matter do what you think is right and you will be ok. AGAIN I have not said anyone has done anything wrong. Take it or leave it as advice or whatever. I have never met a plumber that was great at evaluating mental health or if someone was mentally stable to make a decision. Hell most of the plumbers cannot figure a way out of your price is too high without getting defensive. Best of luck to you and hope you make the right choice.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

With seniors, we have a practice to always ask if there is anyone who should be involved with the decision: a family member, trusted friend or neighbor. If they say, "No", that gets noted on the invoice with an additional signature. Before and after pictures are also crucial in case there is an issue down the line.


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## damnplumber (Jan 22, 2012)

*Man I am too inexpensive!*



U666A said:


> And how! Trust me, OS was worth every penny! :laughing:


I would have charged less than half that $175 tops! and worried that would be too much! for less than 1-hour.......


A plumber cleared a guys drain in 10 minutes and says "that will be $175....
Client says "My goodness, I'm a Doctor and I don't get that much an hour"
Plumber says..."yep neither did I"


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I want to make this crystal clear I do not have an issue with the cost or price. Someone else may be higher or lower for the same job. I have issues with the method to get to that cost or price. Price does not matter however the methodology is what makes the difference. Again it goes with consistency and best business practice.

All I know is I would not want anyone to do work that prices based on how they feel to work for my family or friends.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> I want to make this crystal clear I do not have an issue with the cost or price. Someone else may be higher or lower for the same job. I have issues with the method to get to that cost or price. Price does not matter however the methodology is what makes the difference. Again it goes with consistency and best business practice.
> 
> All I know is I would not want anyone to do work that prices based on how they feel to work for my family or friends.


It called supply and demand Richard... 

Pricing should fluctuate... It is a normal and well practiced part of economics ...

Look at it this way 

On Monday I restock my shelf with available time... By mid week I am almost sold out ...
Now knowing that the demand is going to exceed my supply of available time I start to raise my prices ....

I could how ever change this by increase my supply and saturate the market...

This is bad business practice to do so... It makes a tail spin for the entire industry...

The philosophy of making profit by bulk is detrimental to any business


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

I agree that supply and demand should factor into your pricing. Also, I didn't see it mentioned, but there is another cost that is hard to quantify. Loss of opportunity.

When you are selling hours, there is limited supply. IMO, OldSchool is okay because he can back-up his bill with BS and come out smelling like a rose. :yes:. 

I think it's a problem when you have employees going off half-cocked, charging whatever they think they can get away with because they make a commission.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> It called supply and demand Richard...
> 
> Pricing should fluctuate... It is a normal and well practiced part of economics ...
> 
> ...


 
You can try to call it whatever you want. This was in no way supply and demand it was how "I" felt that day. Read your original post and then tell me it was supply and demand. Read the title and tell us differently. This thread is not about simple economics thanks for the laugh. No lesson to be taught here.


What is the difference between an owner or employee charging what they think they can get away with for personal gain? Not a 2 way street. 


Again no issues with the amount the issue is the method getting to that amount.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

What I want to charge is usually less than what I need to charge which is why I rely on calculations to determine my rate


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> You can try to call it whatever you want. This was in no way supply and demand it was how "I" felt that day. Read your original post and then tell me it was supply and demand. Read the title and tell us differently. This thread is not about simple economics thanks for the laugh. No lesson to be taught here.
> 
> What is the difference between an owner or employee charging what they think they can get away with for personal gain? Not a 2 way street.
> 
> Again no issues with the amount the issue is the method getting to that amount.


Sorry you feel that way ... But you couldn't be more wrong ... 

I can see you don't get it and no matter how I word it or reword it I think my endeavor for you to understand would be futile...

I suggest starting over from the first post and reread it ...

I know the above is not going to go over well with you because you are clearly missing the point ..and made up your mind ... Either your way or the highway ..

We definitely don't see eye to eye on this ..

However all my price is done how I feel ..

If I feel like the job will be a pain --- the price goes up

If I feel that the customer will be a pain --- the price goes up

If I feel that there is a risk -- the price goes up

If I feel like Myself or my guys are over worked -- the price goes up

If I feel like we have more than enough work --- my price goes up

If I feel like the customer really wants us --- the price goes up

If I feel like I need more income -- the price goes up

Some body stop me ... The list is never ending


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

You are walking a fine line . But I still like your post. lol


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> Sorry you feel that way ... But you couldn't be more wrong ...
> 
> I can see you don't get it and no matter how I word it or reword it I think my endeavor for you to understand would be futile...
> 
> ...


When I ran my first company, I flat rated some things, and did time and materials for others. I stuck to the price list, mostly, with little variance. There was a logical rationalization for everything, and anyone including my wife in the office could justify any invoice total. The problem with this way of doing it, was that my service area kept getting bigger, business was too busy, or too slow, there were important events with my family that I spent out working, or worrying about why I wasn't getting calls. There was a regular guy with a family etc.(me) who was either not being compensated enough for the daily effort he had to put into the business, or the same guy, making what I should.
Now, if you add together these two things you get:

Enough + not enough = NOT enough

Hmmm... I thought : I make the same for an hours work (generally) that takes me 10 mins to drive to as I do if it takes me 40 mins. Drive time.
And, I make the same per hour whether or not I have to work for an a-hole, or a nice guy. And I get the same per hour if I have to listen to my wife complain all night about leaving her alone, and not spending enough time with the kids etc. as I do when I come home early and she says : "hey honey, lets put the kids to bed, crack a bottle of white, and go skinny-dipping in the hot tub!"
And I get the same per hour when I'm sick, and when I'm tired, and when I feel great, and when I don't want to do the job, and when I already made enough money that week, and on and on, and on...

After thinking about it for a long time (years really) I decided in my new business, I would just NOT do it that way again. From them on, customers would pay what the job was worth at the time, or they could call somebody else. I don't care... 

Now, I am not in the same position as OS where he is probably the highest price in town, and doesn't need the business, but even so, I don't care...

I have found that my customer base is still expanding, without advertising, and I almost never have complaints about anything. Sure I get a recall once in a while, or a customer grumbles something about the bill, but my customers keep coming back, and the ones that don't, so what?

This system is much better than flat rate or T&M because it allows me fluidity. With flat rate or T&M you have to price high enough for every hour to cover all the non productive and lost, broken, pissed off, or stolen hours in order to compensate. This sets up a cycle of having to always "sell" your jobs. Which means you have to get a salesman on site before you can give a price. Which makes you sound like a salesman instead of a plumber, which makes smart customers, think you are trying to trick them or "sell" them something, which leads to a whole culture of secrecy and white lies and problems... 

And then, you are only left with desperate, or unwitting customers, who are much more likely to sue you for "price gouging." And... 

You have to spend a lot of money advertising, just to find them...

I am a plumber... Most of my customers think I am either grouchy, funny, quirky, a little "off", or some of all of these... But... They still call.

Oops... I meant to quote Richards last post, but quoted OS instead.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

damnplumber said:


> I would have charged less than half that $175 tops! and worried that would be too much! for less than 1-hour.......
> 
> A plumber cleared a guys drain in 10 minutes and says "that will be $175....
> Client says "My goodness, I'm a Doctor and I don't get that much an hour"
> Plumber says..."yep neither did I"


You quoted me, but you took my post WAY out of context! Re-read.


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

U666A said:


> You quoted me, but you took my post WAY out of context! Re-read.


Ha ha, I say that to my wife all the time and she says my context is like a contest...


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Dam .. This customer was shock this morning ...

Call for no heat on 6 plex ... Pump making noise ...

So I grab a spring coupler and went to fix it ... Total bill ... $ 402.50 

In and out less than 35 minutes .. 4 bolts and 2 Allen screws ...

Now I got spending money for today ...

Customer was like what .. That much ..

Yes ... That's what we charge to fix your problem ... It cost lots to have a knowledgeable guy out on a satruday ...also showed her that the boiler needed cleaning .. So she booked it for this week ...


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## Oldasdirt (Dec 8, 2012)

Wow I would only have charged them 387.00 for that job but thats only because thats what my boat payment is !


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Oldasdirt said:


> Wow I would only have charged them 387.00 for that job but thats only because thats what my boat payment is !


You should see what I charge on mortgage day


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## plumberpro (Jan 1, 2013)

gave a estimate for plumbing in a washer box and kitchen drain in a bedroom a full days work running drain and water told them 800. they want. To think about it and shop around seems like people haven't idea what things cost or how much work is involed


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

plumberpro said:


> gave a estimate for plumbing in a washer box and kitchen drain in a bedroom a full days work running drain and water told them 800. they want. To think about it and shop around seems like people haven't idea what things cost or how much work is involed


$ 1,500 a day plus material .. Is our everyday low price ..


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

we aren't to far off , ours is 1445 a day plus material


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

justme said:


> we aren't to far off , ours is 1445 a day plus material


Your price is to close to mine ... Now I got to raise mine again


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

our price include a Plumber and Apprentice does yours or is that your Plumber rate lol.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

justme said:


> our price include a Plumber and Apprentice does yours or is that your Plumber rate lol.


One journeyman ...


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## plumberpro (Jan 1, 2013)

wow 1500 plus matl that's prett cool tells me im way to cheap on what I charge I want to work but now the guy wants to think on 800. if you can find someone to do it for less and to code not cobbled in good luck


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

plumberpro said:


> gave a estimate for plumbing in a washer box and kitchen drain in a bedroom a full days work running drain and water told them 800. they want. To think about it and shop around seems like people haven't idea what things cost or how much work is involed


800 including pulling the drywall, piping the waste and water and running under floor and vent. You're way way to low. I did a stack replacement which was easier for 3x that...


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Earlier today I was talking to my dad about customers. Was telling him about a funny couple that the husband wanted me out and the wife didn't seem to like my price. 

Dad says "Well sometimes people are shopping for the best price." I said "Shopping based on price is not a guarantee that the work will be done the same. If so, why would there be plumbers if a handyman or General contractor could do the work? The fact is that the handyman is not doing the same work, and the proof of that is found daily as I see bad work, while getting paid to correct it."

Despite the fact that my grandfather was a mechanic who worked for himself and I am a plumber who owns my business, my dad has never learned that skill and knowledge have a cost. He is the epitome of a price shopper, tire kicker, and nothing you I've said would change that.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

I feel ya in that. I've lost several jobs lately everyone says I'm to high. 
My mom was the tire kicker in our family. He is cheap.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

When some one is price shopping tell them to call you back when they are finished shopping and you will give them a price ..

I hate being the first guy in ... They will just use your price to get the next guy down on their price ..

I have gotten many jobs after everybody quoted and my price was the highest ..

I find if you are the last guy in you got more to talk about with the customer that they can compare what you are giving them compared to the rest of the pack...... 

Actually makes the sell easier because they are now actually ready to buy rather than continue shopping...


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> When some one is price shopping tell them to call you back when they are finished shopping and you will give them a price ..
> 
> I hate being the first guy in ... They will just use your price to get the next guy down on their price ..
> 
> ...



Selling to an ignorant customer is a PITA. Its much easier to sell once they have had a chance to learn what they do and don't want.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

OldSchool said:


> You should see what I charge on mortgage day


LMAO!!! I just had to read through some of this with my husband. I've been telling him repeatedly that we cannot afford to go out on a job without charging at least $250 (by my conservative estimation) and he's worried the customers will balk. Today we turned away 2 video drain inspections, a hydrostatic test, 2 tankless proposals, a slab leak, a gas leak and a water heater job to go to nickel and dime jobs that were already on the calendar. It is SOOOO time to raise our prices! This is the ammunition I needed! Thanks.


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

aprilmayb said:


> LMAO!!! I just had to read through some of this with my husband. I've been telling him repeatedly that we cannot afford to go out on a job without charging at least $250 (by my conservative estimation) and he's worried the customers will balk. Today we turned away 2 video drain inspections, a hydrostatic test, 2 tankless proposals, a slab leak, a gas leak and a water heater job to go to nickel and dime jobs that were already on the calendar. It is SOOOO time to raise our prices! This is the ammunition I needed! Thanks.


Sounds like you need to restructure, hire help and figure out your numbers better.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

aprilmayb said:


> LMAO!!! I just had to read through some of this with my husband. I've been telling him repeatedly that we cannot afford to go out on a job without charging at least $250 (by my conservative estimation) and he's worried the customers will balk. Today we turned away 2 video drain inspections, a hydrostatic test, 2 tankless proposals, a slab leak, a gas leak and a water heater job to go to nickel and dime jobs that were already on the calendar. It is SOOOO time to raise our prices! This is the ammunition I needed! Thanks.


It's either provide a quality service and charge for it or work for someone who knows how. You will lose your house if he is afraid of his customers.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

JK949 said:


> It's either provide a quality service and charge for it or work for someone who knows how. You will lose your house if he is afraid of his customers.


After I re-read that I realized I wasn't clear. I want our minimum charge to be $250 (really $300 but I'm easing him into it.) He isn't afraid of our customers, just has a hard time charging that when he is at a customers home for only a few minutes. I don't blame him, but he's great at what he does and should be compensated accordingly. We are regrouping, actively recruiting (thus my ad in the plumbing jobs section) and raising our prices. We have more work than we know what to do with. It's a good problem.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

aprilmayb said:


> After I re-read that I realized I wasn't clear. I want our minimum charge to be $250 (really $300 but I'm easing him into it.) He isn't afraid of our customers, just has a hard time charging that when he is at a customers home for only a few minutes. I don't blame him, but he's great at what he does and should be compensated accordingly. We are regrouping, actively recruiting (thus my ad in the plumbing jobs section) and raising our prices. We have more work than we know what to do with. It's a good problem.


I mean $250 just to show up. So if the jobs an hour or less, we aren't wasting our time. (DANG, it's past my bedtime.)


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

Here's a good example: yesterday I got a call from a guy who was referred to me by a drywall guy I know. I went out this morning after being briefed by my friend on the problem... This guy had a 20 year old home, and had gotten his old one piece fiberglass shower ripped out by some 'hack', who then put in a nice looking travertine tile shower complete with new shower valve (cheap brushed nickel glacier bay). Immediately after the remodel he started having hammering or knocking in the pipes as he called it. The sound happened every time any water was run and then shut-off. 
The remodel 'hack' had tried to fix the problem after the job, but gave up after little effort saying : "the problem is not related to what I did."

In the past five years he had called three plumbers to fix the problem. The first guy sold him a pressure reducing valve for $800 and disappeared when that didn't fix the problem.

The next guy told him that the problem was a sizing problem that couldn't be fixed, only maintained by installing Souix chief mini-arresters on all of his angle-stops. This did lessen the problem for a while (a couple of months he said) but it came back. Charged him $950

The third guy re-routed his main water line from its original entry into the house, cutting and capping the cold manifold behind the water heater (1") and at entry to the house, and then ran a new line to said manifold through the attic (previous line was in the slab between the two). He claimed that there must be an obstruction or kink in the line somewhere causing the water hammer. Charged him $1100

Maybe I got a little bit lucky... But... After walking around for a bit and running water and listening to the knocking, I asked him to go downstairs and shut the ball valve off and then turn it back on when I said to. While he was out, I removed the handle and escutcheon on his glacier bay shower valve, and closed the integral stops. "Okay!" I shouted down to him, and he turned it on. 

We tested fixtures for 10 to 15 mins, and the 'knocking' had completely disappeared. He tried every guilty combination of water, but the knocking was totally gone... He was elated! And couldn't believe that the problem was fixed... His wife was almost hysterical with the news, as the banging had really bothered her for years.

I told him that I would permanently fix the problem, and in 2 hrs had replaced the Offending shower valve.
I thought he was going to kiss me!
His wife made me lunch, and we sat outside on the patio and ate it. He went into detail about all the other plumbers, and how he couldn't believe what an idiot he had been for calling them, and allowing them to do what they did to his house. He is going to try and get his money back from all of them, blah, blah,blah....

I thanked them for lunch, went out to my truck, and wrote them a bill for $1500 for installation of delta universal body and basic BN trim.

Now... I would have made money at $800, but what he paid for was my knowledge. To me and probably lots of others on this forum, this was a pretty basic problem/fix. I had seen this problem before. Several times. I didn't have any other calls for today, and was pretty sure with valentines day at hand, my wife was going to want something nice... And she is going to get it.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Yesterday ... I had a guy complain on my rate ...

Anyway this was on a heating system ... Previously he had two other companies in there before me ...both companies could not find the fault even though one company sent 3 guys ...

So I found the fault as it was a bare wire grounding out the 24 volt transformer ... 

I write up my bill and I charged $ 350.00 for finding the fault and replacing the transformer ..

The guy was like how much the are you charging me by the hour ..., the other companies was only $ 80.00 per hour and you are charging me over $ 250.00 per hour ...then he says you are really expensive ...

In return I said ..... Yes I am very expensive ... That is why your problem has been fixed ....

He paid in cash ... No more questions after that ...


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## heeterman1 (Feb 12, 2013)

RW Plumbing said:


> Who are you? Awfully judge mental for a new member. You don't have the right to an opinion without an intro.
> 
> I used to charge what I felt like, then I realized it wasn't enough... 390 for a frozen pipe isn't too bad if it took a while.


Not a bad price,you have to make money.when i lived in NY i did countless frozen line never easy.good job


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> Yesterday ... I had a guy complain on my rate ...
> 
> Anyway this was on a heating system ... Previously he had two other companies in there before me ...both companies could not find the fault even though one company sent 3 guys ...
> 
> ...


Just think how much you would have made on a Friday for this job. :laughing:


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

mightypipe said:


> Here's a good example: yesterday I got a call from a guy who was referred to me by a drywall guy I know. I went out this morning after being briefed by my friend on the problem... This guy had a 20 year old home, and had gotten his old one piece fiberglass shower ripped out by some 'hack', who then put in a nice looking travertine tile shower complete with new shower valve (cheap brushed nickel glacier bay). Immediately after the remodel he started having hammering or knocking in the pipes as he called it. The sound happened every time any water was run and then shut-off.
> The remodel 'hack' had tried to fix the problem after the job, but gave up after little effort saying : "the problem is not related to what I did."
> 
> In the past five years he had called three plumbers to fix the problem. The first guy sold him a pressure reducing valve for $800 and disappeared when that didn't fix the problem.
> ...


 
Wow, I can't believe you guys can charge that much for such a simple job, we would have a difficult time getting 1/3 of that in this area.


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

Titletownplumbr said:


> Wow, I can't believe you guys can charge that much for such a simple job, we would have a difficult time getting 1/3 of that in this area.


 I think you missed the point... 
It's not the turning of the wrenches that you charge for. It's for knowing how, where, and when. A lot of plumbers take for granted the things they know. They think "hey, this is and easy job." 
It is only an easy job for You... And it is only easy for you because you spent years educating yourself on the subject.

To the HO (and maybe to the 3 guys who came before me) this was a masterpiece. It was an end to a five year scourge, which had driven he and his wife nuts, and cost them a good chunk of change.


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

mightypipe said:


> I think you missed the point...
> It's not the turning of the wrenches that you charge for. It's for knowing how, where, and when. A lot of plumbers take for granted the things they know. They think "hey, this is and easy job."
> It is only an easy job for You... And it is only easy for you because you spent years educating yourself on the subject.
> 
> To the HO (and maybe to the 3 guys who came before me) this was a masterpiece. It was an end to a five year scourge, which had driven he and his wife nuts, and cost them a good chunk of change.


No, I didn't miss the point, I have solved problems similar to yours many times and understand the importance of knowledge and experience. I was just commenting on the fact that I wouldn't get that kind of money for that job in my area. I think it's awesome that you can get it, I wish we could here.


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

Titletownplumbr said:


> No, I didn't miss the point, I have solved problems similar to yours many times and understand the importance of knowledge and experience. I was just commenting on the fact that I wouldn't get that kind of money for that job in my area. I think it's awesome that you can get it, I wish we could here.


I see... Sorry for the lecture... 

Do you guys really have a hard time getting $500 for a shower valve install? The parts are $250 right off the top. 
Is this due to competition?
I mean, I don't always charge $1500 for a shower valve... But I can get $800 easy.


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## wyplumber (Feb 14, 2013)

About a month ago a long time customer had me give him a price to replace his old cast iron lines with PVC. Gave him a price he called me back 2 days later said plumber x gave him the price at $250 dollars cheaper. I told him go with that guy then. Get a call 2 weeks later saying he has a major emergency have to get over there ASAP. Pulled off my big job went over there glued 4 fitting that never got glued. Sent him a bill 2 hours two hours Tavel 1 hours on site work. My secretary called me yesterday to say he is only paying for the 22 mins I was on site and he gave her a check for 42 dollars.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

wyplumber said:


> About a month ago a long time customer had me give him a price to replace his old cast iron lines with PVC. Gave him a price he called me back 2 days later said plumber x gave him the price at $250 dollars cheaper. I told him go with that guy then. Get a call 2 weeks later saying he has a major emergency have to get over there ASAP. Pulled off my big job went over there glued 4 fitting that never got glued. Sent him a bill 2 hours two hours Tavel 1 hours on site work. My secretary called me yesterday to say he is only paying for the 22 mins I was on site and he gave her a check for 42 dollars.


See this is where you went wrong ... You made your customer emergency your emergency ... You have never done that ...

Make them stand in line and wait their turn ...


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

I would call him and explain your side. If he does not pay them never do business with him again. If you did not get a signed work order write it off as lesson learned. Good thing you didn't have a lot of material involved. 
If you have a signed invoice still explain your involvement with the repair. 
Sounds like he is mad at the other plumber and blaming you for not lowering your price. I would bring that into the conversation as well.


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

Is it common not to collect while still on site there? This makes it harder for the customer to do this kind of thing. It is hard to look someone in the eye, and say "I'm not going to pay you..."


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

You know what ....

My prices would be cheaper if the customers would bring their plumbing and heating problems to my shop so I can take a look at it...


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## wyplumber (Feb 14, 2013)

99% of the time we do not collect on site. We tried for awhile but our customer base is one we have had a long time. We replace the boiler and all the fin tube at that customers house and had no problem with payment. But like I said we still don't collect on service calls but the amount of people that pay on time Is very good when we did collect on site it seemed everyone had a sob story and I am a sucker for a sob story


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I collect at the time of service. Its rare that I don't and its only if there is a credit card on file at the shop or a loyal customer who uses us for everything and always pays


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

wyplumber said:


> 99% of the time we do not collect on site. We tried for awhile but our customer base is one we have had a long time. We replace the boiler and all the fin tube at that customers house and had no problem with payment. But like I said we still don't collect on service calls but the amount of people that pay on time Is very good when we did collect on site it seemed everyone had a sob story and I am a sucker for a sob story


Wow! That Is strange to me...


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

95% of our service we collect while we are there. If we don't I get busy and don't bill like I should. Now we have them sign the invoice. Commercial I am having double with. Down from 4 to two that we are having to fight with. One is out of Chicago. But service keeps us going


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## bcp2012 (Oct 27, 2012)

For residential work I collect right on the spot. I have a few commercial accounts that usually take anywhere from 1-2 weeks to get paid. Did some work for one of my commercial accounts before Xmas and still haven't got paid. Thing is it was a insurance claim so my invoice got forwarded to the insurance company. Now they are fighting with my customer saying some off the work I did wont be covered under the insurance claim. So I'm stuck in the middle not getting paid. Think it might be time for another invoice to go out, this time with interest tacked on to it

Sent from my iPhone


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

wyplumber said:


> About a month ago a long time customer had me give him a price to replace his old cast iron lines with PVC. Gave him a price he called me back 2 days later said plumber x gave him the price at $250 dollars cheaper. I told him go with that guy then. Get a call 2 weeks later saying he has a major emergency have to get over there ASAP. Pulled off my big job went over there glued 4 fitting that never got glued. Sent him a bill 2 hours two hours Tavel 1 hours on site work. My secretary called me yesterday to say he is only paying for the 22 mins I was on site and he gave her a check for 42 dollars.


This is why you get signatures before work begins, so if they try this crap you put a lien on their house and take them to court.


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

JK949 said:


> This is why you get signatures before work begins, so if they try this crap you put a lien on their house and take them to court.


I don't think this is in accordance with his business plan... I wish I had as much faith and trust in people as he seems to. We apparently live in different worlds. Mayberry would be nice, but around here, someone would probably shoot Floyd the barber for asking so many questions, and looking nervous.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

aprilmayb said:


> ...We have more work than we know what to do with. It's a good problem.


Quote from one of my mentors, "If you are selling more than you can produce hen you are selling too cheap."

While there are exceptions to every rule, this might be food for thought.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

I agree with that statement, but when does no work become better than some work?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Anybody can work or get work ... But can they make money ...

I look at things in dollars ... How much $$$$ do I need every week or day ... Not how much work I need everyday or week ...

Work actually doesn't pay the bills


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

I'm learning that first hand. The price increase loosing some jobs is scary but others come through. So it works just takes a stance to want to make money not work for free


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I work way less than I used to. I'm not very busy anymore. A strange thing happened though when I raised my prices. I started making more money, lots more. I only need to work a couple jobs a week to make what I was making for 60+ hours before. When you aren't pricing yourself to cover your costs, you can do work and lose money on it. I was doing some work and making good money, and other jobs where I was going backwards. 

Now, I don't worry as much when I'm slow. I got rid of the customers that were making me move backwards, and replaced them with good money making ones.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

mightypipe said:


> I don't think this is in accordance with his business plan... I wish I had as much faith and trust in people as he seems to. We apparently live in different worlds. Mayberry would be nice, but around here, someone would probably shoot Floyd the barber for asking so many questions, and looking nervous.


Or you can take a chance and let your client run your business for you.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Will said:


> I agree with that statement, but when does no work become better than some work?


When the work...

1. Ceases to be profitable and/or,

2. Keeps you from a more profitable job and/or,

3. Damages your credibility as a "PROFESSIONAL" Plumber and/or,

4. Limits your ability to charge the right price in the future.


Go fishing and spend money, but *NEVER* go to work to break even.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Many of us Plumbing Business Operators (especially One-Man-Shops) struggle with the effect of downtime on our psyche. There is never a minute during the day or night that a PBO can't find something to work on in his own backyard that is better for the business than taking a job just for the sake of saying you are on a job.

Clean the truck, build a shelf, organize materials, work on the budget, read trade journals, have lunch with a fellow PBO, read motivational materials, or...

God forbid....

Just take a day off with your family.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Just so y'all know, I'm agreeing with y'all, just asking. I've rasied my pricing by $20 per hour since I opened, and I have gone to a minimum charge also. I've been playing around wuth the idea of going flat rate, just haven't made to plunge yet.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

It's spooky Will if all you know is one way of billing and pricing. I'm working FR a lot more now. Bid jobs where I need to be. In that part I'm much happier an less stress. Now it's collecting


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> Many of us Plumbing Business Operators (especially One-Man-Shops) struggle with the effect of downtime on our psyche. There is never a minute during the day or night that a PBO can't find something to work on in his own backyard that is better for the business than taking a job just for the sake of saying you are on a job.
> 
> Clean the truck, build a shelf, organize materials, work on the budget, read trade journals, have lunch with a fellow PBO, read motivational materials, or...
> 
> ...


Amen, the bearings in the equipment would love some grease less the grease worms win out.


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## Radium (Dec 25, 2010)

Will said:


> Just so y'all know, I'm agreeing with y'all, just asking. I've rasied my pricing by $20 per hour since I opened, and I have gone to a minimum charge also. I've been playing around wuth the idea of going flat rate, just haven't made to plunge yet.


Flat rate is the only way to go. Working hourly is degrading no matter how much money you make an hour. I have a minimum $250 call out, and a daily quota that I work towards. If the job doesn't meet either of the two criteria, I don't do it. Recently I have been adding up the bill in the driveway, get the cheque, and email the paid invoice from invoice to go when I get home.

Sent from my iPad using PlumbingZone


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Radium said:


> Flat rate is the only way to go. Working hourly is degrading no matter how much money you make an hour. I have a minimum $250 call out, and a daily quota that I work towards. If the job doesn't meet either of the two criteria, I don't do it. Recently I have been adding up the bill in the driveway, get the cheque, and email the paid invoice from invoice to go when I get home.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PlumbingZone


So your really trying to say I can't make the same or more by charging by the time ....

I think you should come be my side kick for awhile ...

I will show you the truth of the matter ...

I charge and I am not afraid to do it ..... I don't have to hide it in some mum Bo jumbo flat rate book ... 

I don't care ... If they think it's expensive ... It should be ...

If you brought your car to a mechanic .. Your smallest bill is 1,000 

Now that car is only worth 20,000 if you are lucky ..

Your house is worth 10 times that much or more ... Therefore your bill should be 10 times what a mechanic would be ...


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## Radium (Dec 25, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> So your really trying to say I can't make the same or more by charging by the time ....
> 
> I think you should come be my side kick for awhile ...
> 
> ...


I was losing money doing hourly. Home owner counting my hours, asking how much mark up was, waiting for a cheque.....to much stress for me. I will give credit to you old school, you have forgotten more then I know, but I can't go back to hourly.

Sent from my iPad using PlumbingZone


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Radium said:


> I was losing money doing hourly. Home owner counting my hours, asking how much mark up was, waiting for a cheque.....to much stress for me. I will give credit to you old school, you have forgotten more then I know, but I can't go back to hourly.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PlumbingZone


The real deal is to be able to back it up ...

I charge what I charge .. It doesn't matter what somebody else charges or would have charged ..

I know I did my up most best .. In the best professional and craftsmanship possible compared to the rest of the pack ... They pay for my knowledge and my time ... 

I don't feel bad ... As there is always somebody will to pay for that ... Smart customers ...

You pay for what you get...... 

You just need the personality to say it straight forward ....


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I've learned most customers would rather pay a bit more to have it done right the first time than save a dollar and have the same problem in a year and have to pay again.


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