# Pex system question



## TXPlumbBob

For the "crimp" systems do you prefer the copper rings or the Stainless steel "cinch" rings? 

What are the pros and cons of each for you? 

What of the tools? One for the cinch vs size specific for the crimp rings? 


One of my dilemmas is being in the middle of nowhere. The supply house is 180 miles away. We currently use the copper crimp rings and barb type fittings. And have to order the rings in from the supply house. A local lumber yard carries them but they are highly unreliable on stock. We try to keep a good stock but sometimes it just does not work out. The cinch rings on the other hand seem to be available in all the local hardware stores. We rarely do any piping over 1" so we could trade 3 tools for 1. Then I thought I had heard some plumbers were using import cinch rings that started failing in the hot water systems. Have you heard that? Any problems with domestic rings? 

Any insight is greatly appreciated.


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## Redwood

I've been using SSC Rings for about 6-7 years without problems...
Availability and the single tool were the exact reasons why I went with them...

But what would I know? :laughing:


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## Best Darn Sewer

Redwood said:


> I've been using SSC Rings for about 6-7 years without problems...
> Availability and the single tool were the exact reasons why I went with them...
> 
> But what would I know? :laughing:


Well, you are a certified lunatic after all...

Are the SSC rings the ones that look kinda like a hose clamp?


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## Redwood

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Well, you are a certified lunatic after all...
> 
> Are the SSC rings the ones that look kinda like a hose clamp?


Yes, They look like this...


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## incarnatopnh

I only use the copper crimp rings. My tools will crimp 3/8" - 1" just by switching the jaws which only takes 5 seconds. In NY, any job funded by the department of housing and community renewal will only allow copper crimp rings.


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## MootsNYC

Those are the crimp rings I use as well. Almost purely on the fact that they are the easiest to obtain.


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## tims007

Redwood said:


> I've been using SSC Rings for about 6-7 years without problems...
> Availability and the single tool were the exact reasons why I went with them...
> 
> But what would I know? :laughing:


same here ... after spending way to much on tools that become outdated as fittin types change ..this one has been around for a while and is found everywhere


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## Tommy plumber

tims007 said:


> same here ... after spending way to much on tools that become outdated as fittin types change ..this one has been around for a while and is found everywhere










I think the manufacturers are laughing all the way to the bank. They change waterpiping tools and sit back and watch all the plumbing contractors go out and purchase the latest tool.

I have a 1/2" & 3/4" crimp tool that I use copper crimp rings.


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## Protech

been using the copper rings for more than a decade with zero issues. Fast, cheap reliable.
Well over a million crimps.


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## tims007

Tommy plumber said:


> I think the manufacturers are laughing all the way to the bank. They change waterpiping tools and sit back and watch all the plumbing contractors go out and purchase the latest tool.
> 
> I have a 1/2" & 3/4" crimp tool that I use copper crimp rings.


i started out with these ( still have them collecting dust )
http://www.pexsupply.com/Viega-5603...l-Set-3-8-1-2-5-8-3-4-1-Press-Tools-5438000-p

now im just running these all the time .
http://www.pexsupply.com/HydroPEX-HDCLAMPTOOL-Heavy-Duty-PEX-Ratchet-Clamp-Cutting-Tool


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## wyrickmech

I switched over to uponor memory ring fittings. The flow rate is a little better.


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## plbgbiz

wyrickmech said:


> I switched over to uponor memory ring fittings. The flow rate is a little better.


I wish I could switch. Unfortunately, in service I have to be prepared for whatever snake oil the new con guys buy into.


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## wyrickmech

plbgbiz said:


> I wish I could switch. Unfortunately, in service I have to be prepared for whatever snake oil the new con guys buy into.


 I have tooling for the others but only use them when they are needed. I hate keeping stock in the truck for all types. Around here you might run into a home with copper,cpvc,PVC,pex and galvanized what a pain.


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## Best Darn Sewer

plbgbiz said:


> I wish I could switch. Unfortunately, in service I have to be prepared for whatever snake oil the new con guys buy into.


I've used Uponor for a few years now and love it. When I run into other brands of Pex that I have to repair I have used a sharkbite as a transitional fitting instead of buying or renting various tools to make the repair. I know, I know, sharkbites are for hacks and I avoid using them most the time, but as transitions they suffice and are code approved.


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## Cal

wyrickmech said:


> I have tooling for the others but only use them when they are needed. I hate keeping stock in the truck for all types. Around here you might run into a home with copper,cpvc,PVC,pex and galvanized what a pain.


TOTALLY agree !, same here. I must have 5 different ways, materials & tools to run and repair water lines on my truck ,, Hate that ! 
I now use Uponor and think its great . 
Miss the days when only had to carry copper and stuff to adapt off of galv.


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## CaberTosser

I've encountered a few of the broken stainless clamps in a few spots in a condo tower, its made me a little leery of them to be honest, though I never used them frequently in the first place.


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## Best Darn Sewer

Cal said:


> TOTALLY agree !, same here. I must have 5 different ways, materials & tools to run and repair water lines on my truck ,, Hate that !
> I now use Uponor and think its great .
> Miss the days when only had to carry copper and stuff to adapt off of galv.


I carry sharkbites to use as transitional fittings between the different types of pex and what I use which is uponor. Sharkbites fit all the different pex pipes and saves you from having to have the proper tool and stocking all different types of brand fittings. 

Here in Houston we have lots of CPVC, PVC, pex, (all brands and versions) copper and galv. 

I love uponor for our climate. In colder climates crimp style is best. I know uponor takes too long to contract onto a fitting in the colder climates. That was why the new construction comp I worked for in Montana chose to use the raehau (sp?) pex over uponor.


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## Hoosier Plumber

CaberTosser said:


> I've encountered a few of the broken stainless clamps in a few spots in a condo tower, its made me a little leery of them to be honest, though I never used them frequently in the first place.


I was told by a rep that one style of stainless was breaking and a local local company is suing the manufacturer. 

He said it was the Zurn and larger sizes like 1" are the problem.


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## TXPlumbBob

I too was told about cinch rings failing in the hot water recirculating system piping. Maybe the expansion and contraction of the pipe and fitting. I was told it was the import rings causing the problems. I will look into whether it is Zurn or not. Lots of 1/2 million + homes in the Midland area got repiped because of these rings. 

We too use Uponor in the custom homes we do because of the superior flow rate and ease of install. The "pex b" systems will be used in the government replacement homes we do.


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## TXPlumbBob

http://www.bigclassaction.com/settlement/rti-plumb-pex-plumbing-class-action-settlement.php

RTI Radiant Technologies Inc. class action lawsuit for SS cinch rings and Uponor F1807 fittings.

http://www.topclassactions.com/laws...ipe-fittings-class-action-lawsuit-settlement/
Zurn's lawsuit. 

http://www.topclassactions.com/laws...mbing-system-class-action-lawsuit-settlement/


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## Will

I use Wirsbo 1st, copper crimp 2nd, and SS clamp last. Wouldn't consider using a sharkbite. The SS clamps I've had leaks with, I also have had them snap while cinching, don't trust them.


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## suzie

TXPlumbBob said:


> http://www.bigclassaction.com/settlement/rti-plumb-pex-plumbing-class-action-settlement.php
> 
> RTI Radiant Technologies Inc. class action lawsuit for SS cinch rings and Uponor F1807 fittings.
> 
> http://www.topclassactions.com/laws...ipe-fittings-class-action-lawsuit-settlement/
> Zurn's lawsuit.
> 
> http://www.topclassactions.com/laws...mbing-system-class-action-lawsuit-settlement/[/QUOTTE
> 
> I had heard of this right in my backyard too.


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## sparky

TXPlumbBob said:


> For the "crimp" systems do you prefer the copper rings or the Stainless steel "cinch" rings?
> 
> What are the pros and cons of each for you?
> 
> What of the tools? One for the cinch vs size specific for the crimp rings?
> 
> 
> One of my dilemmas is being in the middle of nowhere. The supply house is 180 miles away. We currently use the copper crimp rings and barb type fittings. And have to order the rings in from the supply house. A local lumber yard carries them but they are highly unreliable on stock. We try to keep a good stock but sometimes it just does not work out. The cinch rings on the other hand seem to be available in all the local hardware stores. We rarely do any piping over 1" so we could trade 3 tools for 1. Then I thought I had heard some plumbers were using import cinch rings that started failing in the hot water systems. Have you heard that? Any problems with domestic rings?
> 
> Any insight is greatly appreciated.


copper crimp rings is the only way to go with pex,we have been using pex now for around 15yrs in motels and large apt complexes and some of them crimps and pipes put in by some helpers and is still there today with no problems at all,that is what sold me on the copper crimp rings and zurnpex,love the zurnpex systems.to me the cinch style rings are harder to deal with and more chance for error there,i just don't like them at all


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## sparky

CaberTosser said:


> I've encountered a few of the broken stainless clamps in a few spots in a condo tower, its made me a little leery of them to be honest, though I never used them frequently in the first place.


exactly reason I don't like them,first they remind me so much of the clamping done on the polybutelyene trailor piping and all that crap failed badly,to me it crimps the pipe to tight.with the crimp rings it seems to be equal pressure all around the pipe and fitting


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## Will

sparky said:


> copper crimp rings is the only way to go with pex,we have been using pex now for around 15yrs in motels and large apt complexes and some of them crimps and pipes put in by some helpers and is still there today with no problems at all,that is what sold me on the copper crimp rings and zurnpex,love the zurnpex systems.to me the cinch style rings are harder to deal with and more chance for error there,i just don't like them at all


You might want to start considering Uponor now with tbd no lead crap fittings out now.


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## wyrickmech

Will said:


> You might want to start considering Uponor now with tbd no lead crap fittings out now.


here the water in some areas will remove the zinc and make the fitting very brittle.


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## Best Darn Sewer

wyrickmech said:


> here the water in some areas will remove the zinc and make the fitting very brittle.


No $hit?? Where have you seen or heard this?


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## Redwood

Wow! Unbelievable!
Water doing Dezincification on brass...


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## ToUtahNow

wyrickmech said:


> here the water in some areas will remove the zinc and make the fitting very brittle.


What area are you in, that is in very limited areas and only in yellow brass.

Mark


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## wyrickmech

Best Darn Sewer said:


> No $hit?? Where have you seen or heard this?


 lake of the ozarks in central MO. It is a very small area but the results are devastating. I have a hospital there that I have worked on sense late 80s never had a problem. Then you go south or north of it and you will find pockets of trouble. Nothing wrong with the water but it is starved for zinc.it reminds me of DI water, water in such a pure state it will absorb any mineral it comes in contact with such as copper. That's why it is normally run in Polly pro fused pipe.


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## ToUtahNow

wyrickmech said:


> lake of the ozarks in central MO. It is a very small area but the results are devastating. I have a hospital there that I have worked on sense late 80s never had a problem. Then you go south or north of it and you will find pockets of trouble. Nothing wrong with the water but it is starved for zinc.it reminds me of DI water, water in such a pure state it will absorb any mineral it comes in contact with such as copper. That's why it is normally run in Polly pro fused pipe.



There is a problem with the water if it is causing Dezincification. It only happens in yellow brass but eventually, the water leaches out the Zinc and deposits a meringue which will eventually clog the fitting. So you have two problems. brittle fittings which may break and a meringue which will reduce the flow.

Mark


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## Best Darn Sewer

Damn. I am consistently impressed with the level of knowledge here. Interesting stuff. I didn't know about any of these issues. Thanks for the education.


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## wyrickmech

ToUtahNow said:


> There is a problem with the water if it is causing Dezincification. It only happens in yellow brass but eventually, the water leaches out the Zinc and deposits a meringue which will eventually clog the fitting. So you have two problems. brittle fittings which may break and a meringue which will reduce the flow. Mark


 ha it never gets to the point of clogging the fitting. The fitting always breaks before that point. It is bad enough that the suppliers sent letters out stating they would not sell any brass fittings for domestic water. That is why uponor became so popular here.


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## ToUtahNow

wyrickmech said:


> ha it never gets to the point of clogging the fitting. The fitting always breaks before that point. It is bad enough that the suppliers sent letters out stating they would not sell any brass fittings for domestic water. That is why uponor became so popular here.


I was Kitec's Expert Witness in Las Vegas for those lawsuits. I inspected a ton of homes over a couple of years. If you have Dezincification, the fittings will eventually start to clog.

Mark


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## Redwood

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Damn. I am consistently impressed with the level of knowledge here. Interesting stuff. I didn't know about any of these issues. Thanks for the education.





ToUtahNow said:


> I was *Kitec Expert Witness in Las Vegas for those lawsuits.* I inspected a ton of homes over a couple of years. If you have Dezincification, the fittings will eventually start to clog.
> 
> Mark


Are you sure that's enough of a credential here Mark? :laughing:

To the Noobs sit back and relax there is quite a brain trust among the older members here... Don't miss out on the chance and let them become "Dead Men" before they decide you are worthy after your grand entrance into the forum....

Here's what he's talking about...


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## wyrickmech

ToUtahNow said:


> I was Kitec Expert Witness in Las Vegas for those lawsuits. I inspected a ton of homes over a couple of years. If you have Dezincification, the fittings will eventually start to clog. Mark


 we do not find that here if the fitting fails it is within a year of install and no indication of clogging.


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## Best Darn Sewer

Redwood said:


> Are you sure that's enough of a credential here Mark? :laughing:
> 
> To the Noobs sit back and relax there is quite a brain trust among the older members here... Don't miss out on the chance and let them become "Dead Men" before they decide you are worthy after your grand entrance into the forum....
> 
> Here's what he's talking about...


Ahh. I have seen that plenty of times here on dielectric unions, which was one reason I quit using them and started using brass nipples to reconnect to galv. I never knew what the hell caused that weird clog. So its called meringue and its due to the water removing the zinc? Good to know.

Edit: just looked up meringue. Just a generic term for that type of mixture. An egg beaten to a froth is also called a meringue. I know you know this but I am stating it for others like myself who were ignorant of its meaning and didn't feel like looking it up.


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## Best Darn Sewer

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Ahh. I have seen that plenty of times here on dielectric unions, which was one reason I quit using them and started using brass nipples to reconnect to galv. I never knew what the hell caused that weird clog. So its called meringue and its due to the water removing the zinc? Good to know.
> 
> Edit: just looked up meringue. Just a generic term for that type of mixture. An egg beaten to a froth is also called a meringue. I know you know this but I am stating it for others like myself who were ignorant of its meaning and didn't feel like looking it up.


Wow, I just realized that I did know the word meringue but I had never seen it spelled out before. Haha. I feel like an idiot. Like lemon meringue pie. I didn't expect it to be spelled like that. Kinda like pilates. I never knew what the heck that was when I saw it on signs until one day it clicked. Again, it is spelled very different from its pronunciation. Lordy....good thing I have an English teacher as a wife.


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## plumb_aus

Redwood said:


> Are you sure that's enough of a credential here Mark? :laughing:
> 
> To the Noobs sit back and relax there is quite a brain trust among the older members here... Don't miss out on the chance and let them become "Dead Men" before they decide you are worthy after your grand entrance into the forum....
> 
> Here's what he's talking about...


n00b here wanting to not become a dead man


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## sparky

wyrickmech said:


> we do not find that here if the fitting fails it is within a year of install and no indication of clogging.


we have had that happen here in south central ky,i have personnelly seen them break after being in about a yr,after that we went to the plastic poly fittings with no problems,never seen one clog,wont say it cant happen,but they break way before they will clog around here.


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## wyrickmech

sparky said:


> we have had that happen here in south central ky,i have personnelly seen them break after being in about a yr,after that we went to the plastic poly fittings with no problems,never seen one clog,wont say it cant happen,but they break way before they will clog around here.


 supply houses around us will not sell brass fittings for domestic without a disclaimer stating the problem.


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## sparky

wyrickmech said:


> supply houses around us will not sell brass fittings for domestic without a disclaimer stating the problem.


they will still sell them to you,no disclaimer or anything,its weird,it seems like the fittings only were breaking from a certin area in the city/county,i never did really hear what the reason for that was,but it was something like was said on here,the water absorbing the whatever is in the fitting,didnt make much sense to me at the time,but evidently there is something to it.


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