# Finding leak



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Here's the run down...

Commercial kitchen at a junior high in town. 1 1/2 hot water main under slab, known for a fact that there are fittings under slab. They have had two different leaks that have been fixed prior to this one.

I busted up on one side of the wall where water was heavily showing above finished floor. Dug down found 2nd repair, no leak. Cut water on and water came pouring from under wall.

So went to other side of wall and busted down, found pipe, turned on water, no dice. The water is traveling down some old conduit and finding it's way to my hole.

It being Friday evening and will have to be back in the morning, and American Leak Detection won't come over tomorrow and we don't own leak detection equip...

I was thinking of cutting the water heater loose, and rigging up a hydrostatic pump, or air compressor to pressurize the line and see if I could find where it was spraying from with a stethoscope.

Haven't attempted this before but it seems plausible...

Thoughts?


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

three ways i have seen 2 of them i have done:
1. i've found leaks in radiant piping with an air compressor before, just make sure its in the other room. 
2. the other way i have done it in the past is using a ridgid locator (for sewer camera) for a and hooking up an electric charge to the line.
3. had an employer use two dowling(sp?) rods and locate a burried 3" pvc water main, he was with in a foot of where the water line was, there was no plans for the site.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

You really need to be able to trace the lines, or it will be like looking for a needle in a haystack.

You may get lucky, buts that's what it will be.

Your knees and elbows will get a abrasiderm for sure. Send us some action pictures.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

The way I found a hot water leak was turn of the heater/boiler and let the cold water leak under the slab overnight. Then come morning take a thermal reading of the floor in 6" squares, then fire up the heater and boiler and watch the area with the thermal gauge. We came within 2" of the leak.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

We do have the equipment to track the line. I was planning on loading that up in the morning. Forgot to mention that.

Greenguy- was it a pin hole? Or a pretty good gusher? If I can't get it to pressurize I think I will be pissing in the wind.

SR- at 27 both my knees are shot, old football injuries. I can't even feel them on the front where they cut me open. The joys of being a defensive lineman. 

I hope this works, the pray and spray just ain't working out, after 12 hours of it, I'm looking for other avenues in a hurry. I'll snap some pics, it's going to be a long weekend.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

SewerRatz said:


> The way I found a hot water leak was turn of the heater/boiler and let the cold water leak under the slab overnight. Then come morning take a thermal reading of the floor in 6" squares, then fire up the heater and boiler and watch the area with the thermal gauge. We came within 2" of the leak.


Wow I never thought of something like that , that's smart


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> The way I found a hot water leak was turn of the heater/boiler and let the cold water leak under the slab overnight. Then come morning take a thermal reading of the floor in 6" squares, then fire up the heater and boiler and watch the area with the thermal gauge. We came within 2" of the leak.


As in thermal laser thermometer? 

That could be a possibility too, I've had the heater shutdown since this morning.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Plumberman said:


> As in thermal laser thermometer?
> 
> That could be a possibility too, I've had the heater shutdown since this morning.


Not a laser therm. But a thermal imaging camra. it detects heat and displays it using different colors


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Plumberman said:


> As in thermal laser thermometer?
> 
> That could be a possibility too, I've had the heater shutdown since this morning.


 Yep that is what I used a Fluke thermal laser thermometer.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Mississippiplum said:


> Not a laser therm. But a thermal imaging camra. it detects heat and displays it using different colors


WTF? This ain't NASA


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Plumberman said:


> WTF? This ain't NASA


:laughing: a future sig line


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> Yep that is what I used a Fluke thermal laser thermometer.


That's the one I've got. Sweet idea.

Will have to try it if the hydro and stethoscope doesn't work.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Mississippiplum said:


> Not a laser therm. But a thermal imaging camra. it detects heat and displays it using different colors


Back when I had to find this leak a thermo imaging camera cost 20K and up and the guys that owned one wanted to charge me 5K to locate the leak. So I used the Fluke digital laser thermometer.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Greenguy said:


> three ways i have seen 2 of them i have done:
> 1. i've found leaks in radiant piping with an air compressor before, just make sure its in the other room.
> 2. the other way i have done it in the past is using a ridgid locator (for sewer camera) for a and hooking up an electric charge to the line.
> 3. had an employer use two dowling(sp?) rods and locate a burried 3" pvc water main, he was with in a foot of where the water line was, there was no plans for the site.


Witching, dousing, or divining rods...

The latter is the term I'm personally most familiar with.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Mississippiplum said:


> :laughing: a future sig line


As would yours, even if it was a joke.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Let my clarify here a laser thermometer uses a laser beam and when pointed at something it detects temp?


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

U666A said:


> Witching, dousing, or divining rods...
> 
> The latter is the term I'm personally most familiar with.


Figures... DIVINING? 

Lol

Does it get you closer to God?

What's been up man? Same ole? 

Mods- yes I'm drifting in my own thread, that's just how I roll.

UA- PM me!


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Mississippiplum said:


> Let my clarify here a laser thermometer uses a laser beam and when pointed at something it detects temp?


Yes.

So your post about the thermal camera was legit?

Awesome- sig line worthy!!


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Thermal imaging cameras http://www.fluke.com/Fluke/usen/products/TI-Mechanical.htm over on the right hand side of the webpage you can ask for an onsite demo of the system. Might be worth a try.

There are ones about 1300 bucks and they go up to 10k easy


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Plumberman said:


> Yes.
> 
> So your post about the thermal camera was legit?
> 
> Awesome- sig line worthy!!


It was legit, I dont mind admitting it lol


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

SewerRatz said:


> Thermal imaging cameras http://www.fluke.com/Fluke/usen/products/TI-Mechanical.htm over on the right hand side of the webpage you can ask for an onsite demo of the system. Might be worth a try.
> 
> There are ones about 1300 bucks and they go up to 10k easy


That what I was referring to :laughing:


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Mississippiplum said:


> That what I was referring to :laughing:


 I knew what you where referring to, just they are a bit expensive, where a inferred laser thermometer is a whole lot cheaper, and can get you pretty dang close.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

SewerRatz said:


> I knew what you where referring to, just they are a bit expensive, where a inferred laser thermometer is a whole lot cheaper, and can get you pretty dang close.


Yeah, laser thermometers are handy tools to have, especially for checking water temps. I have a craftsman, it's a decent tool, durable also.


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

Plumberman said:


> We do have the equipment to track the line. I was planning on loading that up in the morning. Forgot to mention that.
> 
> Greenguy- was it a pin hole? Or a pretty good gusher? If I can't get it to pressurize I think I will be pissing in the wind.
> 
> ...


With a air compressor it can come down to CFM's they work on both big and small. It's my favorite tool for testing CI, copper and gas lines, they make a nice whistle when your near a leak and a lot cleaner then testing with water.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Greenguy said:


> With a air compressor it can come down to CFM's they work on both big and small. It's my favorite tool for testing CI, copper and gas lines, they make a nice whistle when your near a leak and a lot cleaner then testing with water.


Not worried about clean, should see the bomb that went off in this cafeteria. I can pump the hole down as needed. 

Im afraid with the hydro I'm just going to hear it rushing all under the slab, at least with straight air it will be more centralized.

I'm digging both ideas, Sewer Ratzs method sounds solid as well.

I've gotta make this happen by Sunday night.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> WTF? This ain't NASA


Insert gig about uncivilized swamp people here...

That bloody joke writes itself!!!

:laughing:

You still up Chippy? I'll give you a call... Is your telegraph machine plugged in? :jester:?


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## HOMER (Jun 5, 2011)

Could try one of these to pinpoint the noise from the compressed air. About $ 25.00. Northern tool has them.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200310627_200310627


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> Back when I had to find this leak a thermo imaging camera cost 20K and up and the guys that owned one wanted to charge me 5K to locate the leak. So I used the Fluke digital laser thermometer.


Back in the 90's when I was doing a facility maintenance gig we had a number of problems (roof leaks & electrical distribution) that were easily located with a thermal imaging survey. It was worth every penny spent even at the prices back then.

Fortunately the technology has gotten a lot cheaper and user friendly since then and a very decent unit can be had for around $1K...

That kind of brings it out of the NASA price range and a bit more palatable to justify if you have the work for it. If I was still doing that maintenance gig I'd probably have the thermal imaging in my tool box at that price.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

U666A said:


> Witching, dousing, or divining rods...
> 
> The latter is the term I'm personally most familiar with.


Witching. Is what it's called here. Iv seen an old timer do it !!


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

A few of the water well drillers use it I'm told and are normally on the money. 

If nothing else run a new line..,


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Witching. Is what it's called here. Iv seen an old timer do it !!


I read GG's OP and looked up "divining rod" through wikipedia. Those were the results.

I know them as what I called them, and I had heard them called witching rods; and because I knew what to search from GG's post, tells me I've heard the term "dousing rod" before. :thumbup:

And yes, I've seen a plmbg vet use them before, and even got a chance to try for myself. Pretty cool...


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Fixing to cross the hot and cold together, I can't get enough pressure through the hydro to up the PSI

I'm hoping by back feeding to my test rig I can maintain at least 50psi then hit the pump to jump up my pressure.

I crossed the cold and hot earlier with city pressure and couldn't hear the leak under slab.

Hopefully this will help it show it's face....

I'll keep the updates coming.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Is that a sharkbite? 

On a more serous note, I hope you are able to find the leak, what you are doing should find it.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

That's a temporary hose bib with a sharkbite on it, yes very much so.

I will use them till the cows come home on a job like this.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Plumberman said:


> That's a temporary hose bib with a sharkbite on it, yes very much so.
> 
> I will use them till the cows come home on a job like this.


It's ok it's just temporary so there's no big deal


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

I may leave them on, and then put another one on the drop from the faucet that it connects to.

Take a washing machine hose and use that as a flex, 

You know why? Because it aggravates you... And that's how I roll

Lol

Sharkbites have their place, this is one of them.

When I get through with this mess everything goes back hard piped, kitchen employees are rough on plumbing...


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Plumberman said:


> I may leave them on, and then put another one on the drop from the faucet that it connects to.
> 
> Take a washing machine hose and use that as a flex,
> 
> ...


As long as there is no sharkbites on it after the job is done I don't see a problem, cause why solder it now when its just temp.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Plumberman said:


> I may leave them on, ...blah blah blah...


 
Why not post an intr... oh wait.. Sorry bout that, got carried away.


Sharkbites are great for troubleshooting, as Mississippiplum said as long they are not around on the finished job.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I doubt that your hydrostatic testing unit will have enough volume to pressurize the leak...

You'll need a compressor or, high pressure bottle and regulator....


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Redwood said:


> I doubt that your hydrostatic testing unit will have enough volume to pressurize the leak...
> 
> You'll need a compressor or, high pressure bottle and regulator....


Correct again sir

I've since abandoned that idea.

I did hear water running in an area on down from my last hole.

I'm fixing to pump this shiot up with nitrogen... And hope the other joints hold... What a day.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Try turning the water off, let the pressure off, close it up and apply the air and listen for the bubbles popping. It may sound more like a loud pinging.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

I found it. I heard water running when I was crossing the cold to the hot at the heater.

Wound up being about 10" off. It's a 1/2 90 split at the throat.

We are busting up the last little bit of concrete right now.

Will post pics of repair. It's going to be pro pressed.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Witching. Is what it's called here. Iv seen an old timer do it !!


The boss asked me if I witched a leak yet when I first moved to OK. I must have given him a WTF are you talking about look he just walked to the truck and got his rods out. He was pretty good. I don't think he likes it though, $400 for leak detection with the Sewerin free with two pieces of silphos.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Plumberman said:


> I found it. I heard water running when I was crossing the cold to the hot at the heater.
> 
> Wound up being about 10" off. It's a 1/2 90 split at the throat.
> 
> ...


Good job, 10 inches off is pretty damn good.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

I thought so myself.

It was a 3/4 90 not 1/2


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Repair looks good, good job :thumbsup:


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Preciate it.

This one was getting hairy quick. I didn't sleep worth a shiot last night thinking about how I was going to find this one.

The joys of caring about what you do...


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Plumberman said:


> Preciate it.
> 
> This one was getting hairy quick. I didn't sleep worth a shiot last night thinking about how I was going to find this one.
> 
> The joys of caring about what you do...


I wouldn't have been able to sleep either, but atleast you can sleep well tonight knowing you found the leak and fixed it properly.


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## bizzybeeplumbin (Jul 19, 2011)

Nice repair, I love propress. 

I was always scared to sue it under the slab because the existing pipe was pitted, I always brazed the joint. Guess that isnt an issue now, from your picture looks like it worked just fine.

I had slab leaks in houses that were built by the military for housing, every house in the development had fittings under the slab, some buried in the concrete. what a nightmare it was.


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