# Softener myths?



## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

So I guess to me...it's just BS, but I OFTEN hear people saying they hate drinking soft water because of all the salt in it...I hear others say the salt dries out their skin / hair. There are other complaints, those are just off the top at the moment. 

I understand how a softener works...I install them---repair / rebuild them and it just doesn't make sense to me. So my neighbor is a retired master plumber. He and I yap every now and then about business. So I am in my backyard adding a few bags of potassium and he asks me if I ran a city water line to the cold kit sink. I said no, everything but the hose bibs and WC's are soft. He baulks and says how can you drink that stuff. So I figured before I tell him he is clueless I thought to bite my tounge and inquire. All a softener does is remove calcium from the water. The calcium is attracted / attached to the rosin beeds inside the rosin tank. The brine...or concentrated salt water (in my case potassium) is used to rinse/scrub the rosin beeds and discharge the salty (soduim brine) calcified waste. I have a AWP 5600 Econiminder head with a 1 1/4 cu ft. tank. No activated carbon or anti microbial sections...because I really don't want to spend the money. So anyhow...during all the differeent phases of the regeneration cycle I see NO place where salt water would enter the potable supply line. I see nothing "added" to the water...nor do I see why someone wouldn't want to drink soft water unless they need the extra calcium. Am I an idiot and are all these people right or are these just myths?


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

The brine does leave a trace on the media during the backwash cycle, and sometimes more depending on the type and age of the media, and you are also adding trace particles of the media itself. Installing a micron filter on the outlet side can elimate the majority of it.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

ok...but wouldn't that be true for maybe the first few gallons after regeneration? What exactly would the micron particulate filter be picking up?


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Tankless said:


> ok...but wouldn't that be true for maybe the first few gallons after regeneration? What exactly would the micron particulate filter be picking up?


Like I said, it depends on the type and age of the media, it may be a few gallons, it may be much more, it also depends on how often the system backwashes. A micron filter will remove sodium, and very small particles of any other solid, but it kills your water pressure. I have installed large commercial softeners with micron filter systems in hospitals, and we always installed a holding tank that was pressurized to compensate for the micron filters.


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## BatonRougePlumb (Nov 21, 2008)

*It does put salt ions into the water.*

There is a transfer of salt ions that go into the drinking water. Some people can taste the salt.

The softeners do not take only calcium particles out of the water. The salt ions create a negative charge on the beads and a positive charge on the cold water. All debris particles that make the water hard are attracted to the negative charge on the beads.

So, the big question is; what happens to the positively charged ions in the cold water. They stay in the cold water you drink. We never connect soft water to a kitchen faucet. Even doctors recommend against it.

Here is another myth or truth. Many plumbers say they do not connect water softeners to the hot water because hot water is already soft. Turn, on a hot water faucet when the pipes are cold. Listen to how hard the water sounds when it is cold. Then listen how it sounds soft as the water turns hot.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

BatonRougePlumb said:


> There is a transfer of salt ions that go into the drinking water. Some people can taste the salt.
> 
> The softeners do not take only calcium particles out of the water. The salt ions create a negative charge on the beads and a positive charge on the cold water. All debris particles that make the water hard are attracted to the negative charge on the beads.
> 
> ...


No disrespect but that to me is all junk science. I read all about the suspencion of ion systems and this and that...all junk science.


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## BatonRougePlumb (Nov 21, 2008)

*Here is contracting proof.*



Tankless said:


> No disrespect but that to me is all junk science. I read all about the suspencion of ion systems and this and that...all junk science.


Sorry, the title was supposed to say, Contradicting Proof, meaning this article starts with what appears, at first glance, to be contradicting statements and then makes it very clear that salt is added to soft water. You can read the link or the excerpts.

http://www.problemwater.com/s_softeners.html

These are excerpts from this link. *Read the last line in the excerpt.* My recent post explained that there is a salt ion exchange as stated in these excerpts. 

Contrary to popular belief, a water softener adds no salt (sodium chloride) to the household water. Rather, *it exchanges sodium (salt) ions for the pesky hardness ions,* thus adding sodium to the water supply usually in the form of sodium bicarbonate. During the regeneration process the softener is separated from the household water supply by an automatic bypass. This assures that no salt enters the house. *(The last sentence means the salt from the softener does not enter directly into the house water from the storage nor the brine tank. This statement does not take into account the transferring of salt ions).*

Probably the number one question asked by the consumer concerning water softening is about the "sodium issue." This issue is greatly misunderstood because of all the bad press about too much salt (sodium) in the average American's diet today. We must have sodium to live, but how much is enough and how much is too much? The topic can be put into perspective by showing where the sodium in one's diet comes from daily. As discussed earlier,* a water softener takes out calcium and magnesium and replaces them with sodium (salt)*. The amount of sodium added to the water is determined by the amount of hardness minerals, which are taken out. *The harder the water before softening , the more sodium is added to the softened water.

These are excerpts showing how salt in soft water can be avoided when installing a softener.
*

 The plumbing can be arraigned so that unsoftened water is piped to the kitchen and other drinking water taps.​
 Hot water only can be softened.​
 Potassium (sodium free) water conditioning salt can be used.​
*
Recap! This tells you that salt is added to the softened water.


*


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

I still don't buy it. I'm going to call the president of AWP...American Water Products and see what his take on it is. I just want to learn more about this and dispell the myths. I appreciate you looking it up!!!


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## wookie (Dec 16, 2008)

All my customers with softners have a reverse osmosis system, so no worries about drinking softened water. 

Does anyone caution customers about effects of softened water on the wh anode? Anyone with experience observing anode rod wear on a regular schedule?

wookie


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Here it is, easy water, looks simple but does it work, I don't know I'm not into water softening.

http://easywater.com


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Here it is, easy water, looks simple but does it work, I don't know I'm not into water softening.
> 
> http://easywater.com


:laughing::laughing::laughing: I would love to see a hardness test done before and after install.

No way it works.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

Tankless said:


> I still don't buy it. I'm going to call the president of AWP...American Water Products and see what his take on it is. I just want to learn more about this and dispell the myths. I appreciate you looking it up!!!


 Please fill us all in....
I was under the impression, that the media is nuetral, the salt is neg. charged, and both calcium and magnesium carry positive charge. When the Mdia is washed in the softner backwash, it both washes the + charged minerals away as well as recharging the media. :sorcerer:=black magic

The most likely way to introduce salt into the water supply is if water is drawn in while the unit is in back wash. I've even done this at my own home on accident. I know the wife got up to go in the middle of the night if when I'm brushing the teeth I taste a little salt.:tooth:

If the softner is set correctly, the media is in good condition, and no water is drawn during backwash, if a person drank the Dr. recommended 12 8 oz. glasses of water from the tap of there softened water they would be consuming the same amount of sodium as one slice of wonder bread = 5 mg. :yes:

The only thing I don't run soft water to, is a marcinite/ concrete pool. I've been told that the now mineral starved water will then pull minerals from the concrete or grout and cause premature failure. I also storngly discourage the sale of a R.O. unless prescribed by a physician. 

I can't imagine why you wouldn't want it every where else including W.C. or the hose bibb you wash the cars with. :drink:

The only advantage to the potassium Chloride is if you have a dry well, you won't kill your grass, you are on Blood pressure meds, or a low-no sodium diet.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

Find out anything good yet?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

There may indeed be some very very small trace amounts of salt in the potable water after the backwash cycle but the salt is not purposly added to the water. The backwash cycle introduces salt water to the resin bed to scrub the accumulated particulate off the beads and then wash them out the drain.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> There may indeed be some very very small trace amounts of salt in the potable water after the backwash cycle but the salt is not purposly added to the water. The backwash cycle introduces salt water to the resin bed to scrub the accumulated particulate off the beads and then wash them out the drain.


Sounds familiar....
 I was under the impression, that the media is nuetral, the salt is neg. charged, and both calcium and magnesium carry positive charge. When the Mdia is washed in the softner backwash, it both washes the + charged minerals away as well as recharging the media. :sorcerer:=black magic

The most likely way to introduce salt into the water supply is if water is drawn in while the unit is in back wash. I've even done this at my own home on accident. I know the wife got up to go in the middle of the night if when I'm brushing the teeth I taste a little salt.:tooth:

If the softner is set correctly, the media is in good condition, and no water is drawn during backwash, if a person drank the Dr. recommended 12 8 oz. glasses of water from the tap of there softened water they would be consuming the same amount of sodium as one slice of wonder bread = 5 mg.


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## plumb4fun (Feb 18, 2009)

ASUPERTECH, what is it you don't like about R.O.'s? Clear clean water with no crap appeals to me.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

plumb4fun said:


> ASUPERTECH, what is it you don't like about R.O.'s? Clear clean water with no crap appeals to me.


 Pure Water sounds good right?
I've read and consulted with 3 different Dr.'s, General Pract., Oncologist, and Dr. in field of dietician stuff, forgot what they called it, also spoke with a friend of mine who is a chemist/ engineer.. They all concure. Pure water is extrmely aggressive, one more reason that the RO's, are plumbed in PVC tubing. When anything is removed from water, it will pick up something else. If / when you drink it what do you think it will do next? It will strip vitamins & minerals from you? They are only recomended or prescribed for certain people with either very high blood pressure/ no sodiuum diets or ones on kidney dialesis. If your worried about junk, odor, taste or clearety, get a quality filter, it will cost you about the same as RO, or less, and you'll get just what your looking for at your tap. Charcoal will also nutralize chlorine, & some ammonia.


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## plumb4fun (Feb 18, 2009)

ASUPERTECH said:


> Pure Water sounds good right?
> I've read and consulted with 3 different Dr.'s, General Pract., Oncologist, and Dr. in field of dietician stuff, forgot what they called it, also spoke with a friend of mine who is a chemist/ engineer.. They all concure. Pure water is extrmely aggressive, one more reason that the RO's, are plumbed in PVC tubing. When anything is removed from water, it will pick up something else. If / when you drink it what do you think it will do next? It will strip vitamins & minerals from you? They are only recomended or prescribed for certain people with either very high blood pressure/ no sodiuum diets or ones on kidney dialesis. If your worried about junk, odor, taste or clearety, get a quality filter, it will cost you about the same as RO, or less, and you'll get just what your looking for at your tap. Charcoal will also nutralize chlorine, & some ammonia.


I find your info very interesting. If this is the case and R.O. water may do more harm than good than ordinary tap water, you would think that there would be a big controversy about the bottle water industry, as most of them get their pure water through the R.O. filtering process. I will research some more myself and see what other sources say as well. Thank you for your information. :thumbsup:


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

plumb4fun said:


> I find your info very interesting. If this is the case and R.O. water may do more harm than good than ordinary tap water, you would think that there would be a big controversy about the bottle water industry, as most of them get their pure water through the R.O. filtering process. I will research some more myself and see what other sources say as well. Thank you for your information. :thumbsup:


 
"Most of the manufacturers *DO NOT* run there water through RO, this is a very very expensive process for a residential costomer, imagine the millions it would cost to set it up, and the 100's of K's it would take to maintain. Most big manuf. just filter, some don't even do that Dissanni, owned by Coke, got busted cause there bottled water matched perfectly to the city water where the plant is. There response to the alligations that they were just packaging tap water*SO!!!!* RO's also waste alot of water.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

The whole RO water is bad for you because it contains no minerals myth is BS. You get 100 times more vitamins and minerals from the food you eat.

Another one is that RO water is slightly acidic so it throws your body’s PH off. Rubbish, your body regulates its own PH. Think about it, what PH is the water when it hits your stomach acid?

The only thing health wise I can believe about RO water is that it leaches minerals from your teeth. I could believe that, but I'm not sure just how much it would actually do that. When you consider that toothpaste replenishes the minerals in your teeth, I don't think it's really an issue.



ASUPERTECH said:


> Pure Water sounds good right?
> I've read and consulted with 3 different Dr.'s, General Pract., Oncologist, and Dr. in field of dietician stuff, forgot what they called it, also spoke with a friend of mine who is a chemist/ engineer.. They all concure. Pure water is extrmely aggressive, one more reason that the RO's, are plumbed in PVC tubing. When anything is removed from water, it will pick up something else. If / when you drink it what do you think it will do next? It will strip vitamins & minerals from you? They are only recomended or prescribed for certain people with either very high blood pressure/ no sodiuum diets or ones on kidney dialesis. If your worried about junk, odor, taste or clearety, get a quality filter, it will cost you about the same as RO, or less, and you'll get just what your looking for at your tap. Charcoal will also nutralize chlorine, & some ammonia.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

less spoting and toilet ring



ASUPERTECH said:


> Please fill us all in....
> I was under the impression, that the media is nuetral, the salt is neg. charged, and both calcium and magnesium carry positive charge. When the Mdia is washed in the softner backwash, it both washes the + charged minerals away as well as recharging the media. :sorcerer:=black magic
> 
> The most likely way to introduce salt into the water supply is if water is drawn in while the unit is in back wash. I've even done this at my own home on accident. I know the wife got up to go in the middle of the night if when I'm brushing the teeth I taste a little salt.:tooth:
> ...


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

In the water starved west the amount of water that goes down the drain using RO is a problem now and will be more so in the future. As for softening (ion exchange), in places where the water purveyor disinfects with chloramine (NH2Cl) ion exchange is an effective way to remove from the water both it's residual ammonia and chlorine. In doing so, I'd prefer using a post carbon filter to remove any sodium or other impurities. The whole house system I've installed for this purpose produces bottle quality water. Though softening with potassium chloride (KCl) in place of sodium chloride (NaCl) would be an alternative way to prevent exposure to sodium, I feel the softener w/post filter produces a superior product worth the extra expense.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

If water is that scarce then you could just recycle the RO waste water.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

Plumbus said:


> In the water starved west the amount of water that goes down the drain using RO is a problem now and will be more so in the future. As for softening (ion exchange), in places where the water purveyor disinfects with chloramine (NH2Cl) ion exchange is an effective way to remove from the water both it's residual ammonia and chlorine. In doing so, I'd prefer using a post carbon filter to remove any sodium or other impurities. The whole house system I've installed for this purpose produces bottle quality water. Though softening with potassium chloride (KCl) in place of sodium chloride (NaCl) would be an alternative way to prevent exposure to sodium, I feel the softener w/post filter produces a superior product worth the extra expense.


 I've always installed the carbon as a pre filter specifically due to its nuetrallizing effect on the chloramines/ chlorine as these are the 2 components that are most detrimental to the resin in the softner. Not familiar with "ion exchange" but it is deffinetly more than a trend now becoming ever more popular- gaining more of the market share. I'm just sceptical of the many different makes and models out there.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Here it is, easy water, looks simple but does it work, I don't know I'm not into water softening.
> 
> http://easywater.com












Well Ron,
You've got some real VooDoo in a box there! :laughing:
Have a good read on your "salt free" electronic water conditioner at these links...
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/catscams.html
Those things have got to be one of the longest running scams going.
They just keep popping up with a new look...
Funny thing is a lot of the people that bought them swear they work...
"You can feel the difference!"

The problem is hardness is minerals in the water. These things do nothing to remove the minerals from the water so how could it be anything but hard after it passes through the "force field" of the device...

Unless of course they teleport it through the copper pipe...
But I haven't seen any of them claiming they figured out how the teleporter on star trek worked yet.... :laughing:


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