# Theater turned Arcade



## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

Just some picks of the job I believe I will be on for most of this summer. We did two bathroom groups and bit more last year at this location and the landlord has found a tenant so we started the buildout on an arcade type spot in half the space. Going to be two full service bars, two bathroom groups of 16 w/c each and a handful of other fixtures. Figured I’d share some pics of the work since I have put forth zero content since joining.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)




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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

We set 4 urinal and 12 wc carriers, core drilled and stubbed plastic and copper to the floor below so far. Will be probably finishing this second floor next week drilling for and setting floor sinks and floor drains and finishing up a family restroom we started today.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Thank you for putting a cleanout above one of the cross tees. Why didn't you put a cleanout above the other?

I snake drains, I also cuss out lazy a holes who can't be bothered to put cleanouts above cross tees. Yesterday I had to bend the end of a 1/4" snake to unclog back to back lav sinks on a cross tee. They each 90'd to the left into the tee. I had to run my camera in one drain so I could watch myself manipulate the snake I ran into the other drain. If I didn't have the camera lord only knows how long I would have been trying to get my snake to go down the cross tee.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

I asked the same question and the answer I got was that there was one c.o. called out in the drawing so it got one clean out.

So short answer my master gives zeros f’s and ordered one c.o. tee because he knew he had to have a c.o. where it was accounted for.

More detailed would be the architect didn’t take into account that there was no way to catch seven carriers to the right of that clean out because we need fall. The drawing called for one drop, one clean out. We had to break the carriers into two drops, but the second cross’ clean out would have nowhere to exit the wall because of the proximity of the carriers and the backing for the partitions that is yet not installed as of these pictures. Little bit of bad planning and little bit of lack of desire led to something we’re not required to put in by code to be left out. I dislike it but it’s not wrong per se. As my boss would say “I guarantee you _I_(he) will never have to pull one of these toilets to snake it!”


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Good looking work. Are your handicap carriers 2" higher?


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

dhal22 said:


> Good looking work. Are your handicap carriers 2" higher?


Sure are. On the mens side furthest left and ladies furthest right.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

Catching cores from a lift below, certainly not my first time on one by any means but first time I’ve ever been required to harness on a scissor. Probably saw cut and chip floors for waterproofing tomorrow.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

I hate metal studs!


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

OpenSights said:


> I hate metal studs!


That's decking?


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

skoronesa said:


> That's decking?


Looks like metal studs to me….


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

OpenSights said:


> Looks like metal studs to me….
> View attachment 132722


Well clearly I thought you were responding to the most recent post.

What's the problem with metal studs? Just get self tappers or pop rivets. When I did duct work metal studs were nice, only had to carry a couple types of screws.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

skoronesa said:


> Well clearly I thought you were responding to the most recent post.
> 
> What's the problem with metal studs? Just get self tappers or pop rivets. When I did duct work metal studs were nice, only had to carry a couple types of screws.


Just giving you shnit I’ve sliced a finger or two. We used hole saws, not knockouts. Pex with mickey’s.

watch the preview.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

OpenSights said:


> Just giving you shnit I’ve sliced a finger or two. We used hole saws, not knockouts. Pex with mickey’s.
> 
> watch the preview.


I get lazy, pilot hole with a screw, then my red snips. I prefer milfords, they don't get brittle and crack.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

We don’t have any grommets for 1” copper yet, but typically punch for copper and grommet and plastic gets hole sawed w/o any means of protection. Anything over 2” typically ends up in a chase.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

Sometimes grinder and snips if necessary or you miss the mark a bit, but it’s hard to make look nice.
This will be a 4’ concrete trough lav S


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Nice looking work but I absolutely hate ferncos!!! I always use mission couplings with the solid stainless jacket (not no hub bands). I’ve seen too many in my life that have sagged.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

Pipe Rat said:


> Nice looking work but I absolutely hate ferncos!!! I always use mission couplings with the solid stainless jacket (not no hub bands). I’ve seen too many in my life that have sagged.


I I’ll take a pic tomorrow of an example but we support any run beyond carrier to carrier to prevent sagging. Finished up a family bathroom with a tight chase with a double wye laying flat that catch carriers at the far corners of the ADA bathrooms and lavs, with strut coming up from rod to prevent any chance of sag.



also thanks to everybody for the kind words I’m glad I’m learning from someone who is both skilled and takes pride in our work.

I certainly can’t take a lot of credit for the finished product because even though I do a lot of the work it is with close guidance and heavy scrutiny. Some of it takes two tries (and maybe three on occasion).


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> I certainly can’t take a lot of credit for the finished product because even though I do a lot of the work it is with close guidance and heavy scrutiny. Some of it takes two tries (and maybe three on occasion).


The old saying, “we’re doing it nice because we’re doing it twice”


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> Sometimes grinder and snips if necessary or you miss the mark a bit, but it’s hard to make look nice.
> This will be a 4’ concrete trough lav S
> View attachment 132723




I dont work with anything this involved, but my question is if I used one of those 3 or 4 inch fernco fittings on a line in
someones basement I would be worried about them sagging over time.....
I have seen them move and sag many times....


How come no hub clamps with full SS bands on them not used in this application????
Why would fernco fittings without full SS bands on them be passable and ok on work like you are doing???
are you putting some kind of leg or support under each one of them?

It all looks real good to me, I just did not think fernco fittings were kosher in commercial work


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

Given three guesses it would be cost, cost, and cost.


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## DDDave (Aug 6, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> I dont work with anything this involved, but my question is if I used one of those 3 or 4 inch fernco fittings on a line in
> someones basement I would be worried about them sagging over time.....
> I have seen them move and sag many times....
> 
> ...


See post#18 this thread


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Those Fernco's are WRONG. They should not be there. Pvc/ci adapters and no hub couplings are correct. I bet you don't put a 10' head on those connections.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

And pvc pipe is not fire rated through the floor. Fire caulk ain't gonna do it.


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## Sstratton6175 (Jan 10, 2021)

Very nice work. I wish we could use pvc on commercial jobs in my state but I am ok with not being able to use ferncos. I completely understand that you’d probably prefer not to use them too but if that’s what the boss orders you don’t have a choice.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> Those Fernco's are WRONG. They should not be there. Pvc/ci adapters and no hub couplings are correct. I bet you don't put a 10' head on those connections.



I was wondering about this fernco issue and if anyone else would chime in...

Not just the sagging issues but over time I have seen them loosen up
and need to be tightend down some more as they began to shrink and leak..

I have seen fernco fittings with the full SS band on them that would probably
have been a better choice...

I am lucky we can use pvc here in our state.... 
if that all has to be no-hub cast work it would be way more expensive .


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Sstratton6175 said:


> Very nice work. I wish we could use pvc on commercial jobs in my state but I am ok with not being able to use ferncos. I completely understand that you’d probably prefer not to use them too but if that’s what the boss orders you don’t have a choice.


Now the question arises, does the lowly apprentice make a mention of this Fernco issue to his boss
and question the use of them?? Will he get in hot water for asking??
Or does the apprentice just let it slide and hope that the boss dont try to shift blame to him 
on this fernco thing , if the inspectors catch this problem down the road..??.

So what do you do, what do you do>???
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also on another note, are those wall mounted toilet carriers gonna hold up being
only 2x4 light construction steel in the walls to hold them??? I have seen them pull out of the 
walls before?


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

I brought up the fernco’s on the first commercial job I was on. I agree they are not approved for above ground horizontal work. Clearly stated in the code book. With that being said, we’ve not had any inspectors here in the county have an issue or call them out in any way.

As far as fire caulking, all penetrations are to be fire caulked specifically to the effect to stop the spread of smoke. This is a three story mixed use space with a very in depth sprinkler system. I do not know much about building codes pertaining to fire proofing beyond us caulking the holes above and below the decking for smoke control. Sometimes we have to plenum wrap our pvc in plenum spaces or hang cast iron instead.

The single carriers are 3/8 power studded to the concrete in three places, and the back to back in four.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

The walls should never take the load of a properly mounted carrier fixture. The carrier is bolted to the floor and the 3/4 rods should have nuts and washers between the wall and the fixture carrying the load.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Pipe Rat said:


> The walls should never take the load of a properly mounted carrier fixture. The carrier is bolted to the floor and the 3/4 rods should have nuts and washers between the wall and the fixture carrying the load.



I have seen a few of these come through the drywall before. with the steel studs in the walls...... 
all you need is some heavy heffer's
slamming their asses down on those toilets for a few months in the ladies room
and they will begin to sag


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

dhal22 said:


> Those Fernco's are WRONG. They should not be there. Pvc/ci adapters and no hub couplings are correct. I bet you don't put a 10' head on those connections.


Depending on whether or not the brand we supplied meets the c1461 standard, I reason that they are actually not specifically prohibited, but given the spirit of the rest of the sections regarding mechanical couplings I tend to agree with you none the less.

I can’t find what I was looking for specifying any above ground horizontal flexible couplings shall be shielded and properly supported on both sides within 18” or something to the effect.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

And upon rereading the above specs both 1460 and 1461 call for shields, meaning that they are indeed wrong regardless of sag, support, or other stipulations.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

I’m still learning how to effective use and understand my code book but here is what I mentioned earlier about supports. This is an addendum in Allegheny county :








it’s confusing because I don’t see any standard mentioned for any unshielded coupling above ground, but here it shows a lean in that direction. Sorry for the barrage of responses but this is something that piqued my interest both at school and in the field in practice. Yet I could never get a definitive answer on the subject. 

Our inspectors have never had a problem with the methods we use just to clarify, but I’m always looking to have the knowledge to do it right, do it better, and understanding some of the reasoning why as well.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

The short answer is that ferncos have no place in new construction. The money you save using a fernco over a husky band or no-hub is lost because you need to support both sides of a fernco so it doesn't sag, this almost always means at least one hanger.

Even in a vertical situation, where you're almost always using a fernco to transition from plastic to cast iron, ferncos aren't ideal because over time they squeeze out thinner and won't be making a good seal when rust accumulates. Almost every fernco I've taken off cast iron had rust flakes stuck in the joint.

Don't get me wrong, I use ferncos alot for drain cleaning, almost as often as I use a no-hub, but they're always supported by at least some loops of hanging strap. Hanging strap is a bit wanky for a brand new building. For the 100yr old houses I work in, a fernco and strap is usually going to outlast the rest of the plumbing and often the homeowner.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> And upon rereading the above specs both 1460 and 1461 call for shields, meaning that they are indeed wrong regardless of sag, support, or other stipulations.


Well, just dont be the guy to ask the inspectors about this issue...
that would not be beneficial. 

Never, ever make the inspector look stupid.....by asking questions
he dont have the answer to--- 
it never goes well if you do this.....


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> The short answer is that ferncos have no place in new construction. The money you save using a fernco over a husky band or no-hub is lost because you need to support both sides of a fernco so it doesn't sag, this almost always means at least one hanger.
> 
> Even in a vertical situation, where you're almost always using a fernco to transition from plastic to cast iron*, ferncos aren't ideal because over time they squeeze out thinner and won't be making a good seal when rust accumulates. Almost every fernco I've taken off cast iron had rust flakes stuck in the joint.*
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I use ferncos alot for drain cleaning, almost as often as I use a no-hub, but they're always supported by at least some loops of hanging strap. Hanging strap is a bit wanky for a brand new building. For the 100yr old houses I work in, a fernco and strap is usually going to outlast the rest of the plumbing and often the homeowner.


I always like to throw a liberal amount of pro dope on the inside of every fernco fitting I have to install....
I also like to grease up the pipe real good too.... They DO get loose over time and I have had to tighten down a few

I know the pipe dope will lube up , fill the gaps and seal everything extra well, 
and it will most likely last for the rest of my lifetime anyway....


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> I always like to throw a liberal amount of pro dope on the inside of every fernco fitting I have to install....
> I also like to grease up the pipe real good too.... They DO get loose over time and I have had to tighten down a few
> 
> I know the pipe dope will lube up , fill the gaps and seal everything extra well,
> and it will most likely last for the rest of my lifetime anyway....


When we want a fernco to be more permanent we will prime the pipe and give it ~30 seconds to dry, then put the fernco on. It bonds just enough. When you need to remove it, make a slice longways using a razor, it will peel right off leaving almost nothing behind. 

Doesn't work with no-hubs because they are made from Neoprene.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> When we want a fernco to be more permanent we will prime the pipe and give it ~30 seconds to dry, then put the fernco on. It bonds just enough. When you need to remove it, make a slice longways using a razor, it will peel right off leaving almost nothing behind.
> 
> Doesn't work with no-hubs because they are made from Neoprene.


I have used PVC glue on them before and that basically makes it impossible to remove
those fernco clamps down the road...


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> I’m still learning how to effective use and understand my code book but here is what I mentioned earlier about supports. This is an addendum in Allegheny county :
> View attachment 132764
> 
> it’s confusing because I don’t see any standard mentioned for any unshielded coupling above ground, but here it shows a lean in that direction. Sorry for the barrage of responses but this is something that piqued my interest both at school and in the field in practice. Yet I could never get a definitive answer on the subject.
> ...



This is my type of guy. Someone NOT offended by centuries of experience critiquing his work. Researching, actually researching the critiques and still asking questions. Excellent attitude.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> When we want a fernco to be more permanent we will prime the pipe and give it ~30 seconds to dry, then put the fernco on. It bonds just enough. When you need to remove it, make a slice longways using a razor, it will peel right off leaving almost nothing behind.
> 
> Doesn't work with no-hubs because they are made from Neoprene.


Back in the 80’s I fabbed up some no hub carrier hospital groups at the shop. Both soil and water piping and then transported them to the job. We used a no hub sealant made by Gaco. It really solidified the joints for transport. That and some strategically placed unistrut temporary braces. They were about 20’ long made in two sections. I see there is a similar product out there from Black Swan.


https://www.blackswanmfg.com/Category-04/No-Hub-Sealant.HTML


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Pipe Rat said:


> Back in the 80’s I fabbed up some no hub carrier hospital groups at the shop. Both soil and water piping and then transported them to the job. We used a no hub sealant made by Gaco. It really solidified the joints for transport. That and some strategically placed unistrut temporary braces. They were about 20’ long made in two sections. I see there is a similar product out there from Black Swan.
> 
> 
> https://www.blackswanmfg.com/Category-04/No-Hub-Sealant.HTML



That black swan stuff brings back memories
We used to call it "Camel Jizz-umm" used to plaster
something like it onto all sorts of joints that had to be lubed up...


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

Starting the underground tomorrow. I promise no ferncos guys 😎. Will snap some pics if not getting the whip cracked on me too hard.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> Starting the underground tomorrow. I promise no ferncos guys 😎. Will snap some pics if not getting the whip cracked on me too hard.


The past six months I've found almost a half dozen "Offset Ferncos" causing clogs hahaha


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## JimmyMac (Nov 4, 2015)

I would still say the biggest issue is the NO cleanout above the 1 cross, that is 100% guaranteed to be an issue at an arcade...a place where a bunch of kids hangout, they are definitely going to flush something that will get stuck in that cross, makes zero sense to me to NOT put one in, that WILL be an issue guaranteed.

Ferncos may sag, but they may not...is it wrong yes, but not as big an issue as the no cleanout.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

I just found these Ferncos today. She’s a leaka


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Debo22 said:


> I just found these Ferncos today. She’s a leaka
> View attachment 132807



Those ferncos have been in there for a long, long time...

I think the ferncos that are being used in this arcade will at least last out their one year warranty..

all its got to do is last the year warranty and they are good to go....LOL....


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

Underground is inspected in two sections so far.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

Notice as dhal mentioned earlier that no, we rarely get or even attempt 10’ of head as is required by our code for testing. I waited on this one and met the chief inspector and he had little to say other than nice work and sign here.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

You would fail in Georgia, good looking work but the only primer I see is in the can.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

dhal22 said:


> You would fail in Georgia, good looking work but the only primer I see is in the can.


Is there a certain standard for how much needs to be showing for your inspectors to like it? Because all these joints are primed and upon close inspection you can see purple in the hub. Some of our guys are sloppy with it but I was taught to prime to the insert depth. Helps it look nice and an easy visual cue if the pipe’s not seated all the way.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

On this same note how do the inspectors you guys deal with feel about air locking through a trap instead of filling it all up? It’s common practice for us and we’re honest and up front about it. The benefit being less water to dispose of in situations like this where the tie in won’t be done for a few weeks at least, we didn’t want to fill the ditch up with water.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Even better then if you take the time to keep the primer that neat.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

This week we have been relocating rain leaders because the wall they were in was removed and they decided to box them in next to the columns. Will take pics tomorrow but Monday we core drilled, Tuesday Wednesday we moved the tie in points on the first floor overhead, and today we piped from the roof drains over to the new penetrations that we stubbed through. Will get some pics of the bars that are done (lots of floor sinks) and some 6” chases we did for the beer guy.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)




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## bayside500_822 (Nov 23, 2021)

that re-vent in the wall looks way too low from the pictures


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

bayside500_822 said:


> that re-vent in the wall looks way too low from the pictures


You still haven’t been vetted. Might want to do so.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

bayside500_822 said:


> that re-vent in the wall looks way too low from the pictures


Astute observation. No reason not to tie it in on horizontal above or just jump over above flood level of that bar lav. I didn’t do anything but drill and set the floor sinks in that bar we moved on to cast while another crew took that over. I didn’t catch that even when I was taking the pictures this morning. Will suggest fixing it on Monday.


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## bayside500_822 (Nov 23, 2021)

OpenSights said:


> You still haven’t been vetted. Might want to do so.


some how my old user name/password got messed up, i am bayside500


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

bayside500_822 said:


> some how my old user name/password got messed up, i am bayside500


Password Gate? I think we lost a lot of members of that.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> Just some picks of the job I believe I will be on for most of this summer. We did two bathroom groups and bit more last year at this location and the landlord has found a tenant so we started the buildout on an arcade type spot in half the space. Going to be two full service bars, two bathroom groups of 16 w/c each and a handful of other fixtures. Figured I’d share some pics of the work since I have put forth zero content since joining.
> View attachment 132694
> 
> View attachment 132691
> ...


I would take those ferncos off and replace with clampalls,ferncos not legal inside a blding in my state and they will sag eventually looks good tho


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> That's decking?


Yes that is decking lololo


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

dhal22 said:


> Those Fernco's are WRONG. They should not be there. Pvc/ci adapters and no hub couplings are correct. I bet you don't put a 10' head on those connections.


It would hold it guarantee you that I just don’t like them inside a blding and are not allowed inside blding or under concrete in my state


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> Now the question arises, does the lowly apprentice make a mention of this Fernco issue to his boss
> and question the use of them?? Will he get in hot water for asking??
> Or does the apprentice just let it slide and hope that the boss dont try to shift blame to him
> on this fernco thing , if the inspectors catch this problem down the road..??.
> ...


The carriers will hold just fine on a flimsy wall like that,you put a nut and washer on rod on backside of toilet so no pressure is on the wall at all,it would fail if you don’t put the nut and washer behind the toilet,butttt if it is a concrete block wall you can get by not using the nuts


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Pipe Rat said:


> The walls should never take the load of a properly mounted carrier fixture. The carrier is bolted to the floor and the 3/4 rods should have nuts and washers between the wall and the fixture carrying the load.


What he said,exactly


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Pipe Rat said:


> Back in the 80’s I fabbed up some no hub carrier hospital groups at the shop. Both soil and water piping and then transported them to the job. We used a no hub sealant made by Gaco. It really solidified the joints for transport. That and some strategically placed unistrut temporary braces. They were about 20’ long made in two sections. I see there is a similar product out there from Black Swan.
> 
> 
> https://www.blackswanmfg.com/Category-04/No-Hub-Sealant.HTML


We use black swan


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> The past six months I've found almost a half dozen "Offset Ferncos" causing clogs hahaha


Found one the other day


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

I’ll snap some pics tomorrow but since that last underground I posted about we piped up the bathrooms it served. Today we pretty much buttoned up overhead plastic minus two grease trap pump out lines and a handful of outlying vents.

A couple of the other guys we’re putting up trapeze for the water. $80,000+ invoice on a little over 2,000ft of varying size copper up to 3”. I have to imagine the fittings will be over 20k as well but I didn’t see that ticket. Propress (and me) will be getting a workout over the next week and a half.

I imagine a couple guys will be headed back upstairs next week or the week after to start trimming out as the tile goes up. Trying to get ahead so we’re not stuck working Saturday’s like everybody else on the job.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

dhal22 said:


> And pvc pipe is not fire rated through the floor. Fire caulk ain't gonna do it.


Also we have an apprentice fresher than me so he was tasked and has almost finished putting fire collars around each pvc penetration against the decking from below.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> View attachment 132957
> 
> View attachment 132958
> 
> ...


Looks rather sexual young man


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> Astute observation. No reason not to tie it in on horizontal above or just jump over above flood level of that bar lav. I didn’t do anything but drill and set the floor sinks in that bar we moved on to cast while another crew took that over. I didn’t catch that even when I was taking the pictures this morning. Will suggest fixing it on Monday.


As long as it's above the flood rim on what it's serving you should be good


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

One of two upstairs bars and bathroom set along with a back of house for the bar to include a mop sink and a few floor drains. One questionable vent on a floor drain. Every piece in these pictures was hung by me working with a ball busting ground guy. I had two leaks, one at a set of butted 4x3 combos and one on the riser side of a 3” trap. Both fixed and retested today.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> View attachment 133116
> 
> View attachment 133119
> 
> ...



More hangers........ Generally specs call for one on either side of a joint/ fitting and no more than 6'. Looks great though.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

dhal22 said:


> More hangers........ Generally specs call for one on either side of a joint/ fitting and no more than 6'. Looks great though.


Thanks. I know you’re definitely right on the hangars, I was following directions on that along with everything else. All I can do is say my piece and work. 
Inspection went well, the new hire inspector complimented the work and didn’t question either the bad vent we ran or the 3” branch we snuck an extra dfu on.

On another note, the county has hired three new inspectors in the past few months and all three are from the local union. What a pay cut. Makes me wonder if the guys who suck get tired of being laid off and just end up looking for something steady. Doesn't matter what you’re rate is if you’re always stuck in the hall.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> .......
> On another note, the county has hired three new inspectors in the past few months and all three are from the local union. What a pay cut. Makes me wonder if the guys who suck get tired of being laid off and just end up looking for something steady. Doesn't matter what you’re rate is if you’re always stuck in the hall.


Money isn't everything, you can't buy sanity.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

i love my job but some of the stuff we do is so silly. Pounding the ears down on wood nail plates to drive self tapping screws into the metal studs. 16g nail plates on 16g studs lmao. 80 of them here


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Do they not know these exist?









Proflo, Stud Guards & Shield Plates,


Steel construction, Holes (Ea. End): 1



www.globalonesupply.com


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

chonkie said:


> Do they not know these exist?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We all know they exist. The main supply house we use keeps 8 in stock at a time so unless they get preordered specifically for a job we always end up getting basic nail plates for wood.
Just several layers of poor management and constantly getting pushed. It’s just me and a fresh first year apprentice with a 29 year old master. He’s a good plumber but he doesn’t have decades of experience running jobs of this scale and didn’t get ahead of this headache.
The nail plates and insulation seem to always end up being thrown on with the guys trying to hang board as soon as we’re done. Part of the pace of the commercial jobs we take on. Every other crew is between 5-15 guys a day and we’ve been two at times and 4 at most a few days at a time.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> View attachment 133430
> 
> i love my job but some of the stuff we do is so silly. Pounding the ears down on wood nail plates to drive self tapping screws into the metal studs. 16g nail plates on 16g studs lmao. 80 of them here


thats a nice hammer lolololo


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> .
> Every other crew is betweven 5-15 guys a day and we’ve been two at times and 4 at most a few days at a time.


get used to it cause nothing will change


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

sparky said:


> thats a nice hammer lolololo


I'm assuming sarcasm with the lololo, but Estwing hammers are awesome!


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

It is a nice hammer. I had a 16oz estwing for a while that Was my dads trim hammer back in the 80s and everybody made fun of my little tykes hammer but it got the job done until it disappeared.
End of the day yesterday the carpenter asked when he could take off the nail plates and start boarding. I loled and walked away.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

chonkie said:


> I'm assuming sarcasm with the lololo, but Estwing hammers are awesome!


No sarcasm at all,I was just commenting on the expensive hammer in the pic,a hammer is my most favorite tool of the trade,if I can't fix it I can beat the holy crap out of it lololololo


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

If hammer doesn’t fix it.



you need a bigger hammer. 
bfh ftw


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

Tested some 1” and 2” gas runs we did for outdoor fire pits this morning. Moved onto trim. Suspect I’ll be at it for about three weeks. Hung a dozen w/cs today and tomorrow will do the four urinals and start flush valves on all of them.

Will take some pics it seems like all these commercial jobs I’ve been on lately they end up putting black/dark gray and stainless everywhere. So dark trying to do detail oriented work.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

Only got 6 flushometers on today. Cut sweat and installed the valves on everything first and two of the spuds didn’t want to take and fought me for a while. Expected to get more done but
Not bad for a Friday.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

I see you roughed them from the back side 😉


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

skoronesa said:


> I see you roughed them from the back side 😉


Not sure exactly what you’re poking at. The mens side is all right hand flush and womens left hand because they were roughed back to back with a tee for the supply for simplicity’s sake. Inconsequential since they are all sensor flush anyway, but it puts the manual flush button out of the corner on the two handicaps how it should be.

Please clarify if I’m missing the point lol


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> Tested some 1” and 2” gas runs we did for outdoor fire pits this morning. Moved onto trim. Suspect I’ll be at it for about three weeks. Hung a dozen w/cs today and tomorrow will do the four urinals and start flush valves on all of them.
> 
> Will take some pics it seems like all these commercial jobs I’ve been on lately they end up putting black/dark gray and stainless everywhere. So dark trying to do detail oriented work.


What did you test your gas lines with?? We use ounce gauge to test ours


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> Not sure exactly what you’re poking at. The mens side is all right hand flush and womens left hand because they were roughed back to back with a tee for the supply for simplicity’s sake. Inconsequential since they are all sensor flush anyway, but it puts the manual flush button out of the corner on the two handicaps how it should be.
> 
> Please clarify if I’m missing the point lol


He's drinking today lolololololo


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

sparky said:


> What did you test your gas lines with?? We use ounce gauge to test ours


We usually use a Kuhlman gauge (possibly what you refer to as an ounce gauge) for any type of air test. As of late tho it’s been a spring gauge and 5-6 psi overnight because nobody will kick up a kuhlman that’s either not leaking or working correctly in general.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> We usually use a Kuhlman gauge (possibly what you refer to as an ounce gauge) for any type of air test. As of late tho it’s been a spring gauge and 5-6 psi overnight because nobody will kick up a kuhlman that’s either not leaking or working correctly in general.


We put ounces on gas lines if it is gonna be ounces pressure on the pipes,most low pressure around here is 11ounces water column so we use a 30 ounce gauge,leave it 5-10 minutes and good to go,the ounce gauge will show a leak ina few seconds if you have one


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## TerryTotoSucks (5 mo ago)

Any new gas systems I do 15 psi of nitrogen for an hour with a testo temp compensated gauge then do another test with the working pressure once the system is in use with a manometer attached for 5 min.

The gas provider also does their own inspection and test after I do mine.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

Cool to hear there are other methods that I have not been exposed to. I was under the impression the kuhlman gauge was the industry standard for any type of pressure test.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

TerryTotoSucks said:


> Any new gas systems I do 15 psi of nitrogen for an hour with a testo temp compensated gauge then do another test with the working pressure once the system is in use with a manometer attached for 5 min.
> 
> The gas provider also does their own inspection and test after I do mine.


Why nitrogen? Obviously it’s inert and won’t risk any contamination like oil, dirt or water from compressed air; but what other qualities does it possess to make it a superior method to warrant the cost?


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## TerryTotoSucks (5 mo ago)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> Why nitrogen? Obviously it’s inert and won’t risk any contamination like oil, dirt or water from compressed air; but what other qualities does it possess to make it a superior method to warrant the cost?


I usually have the nitrogen out and already connected on new systems.

On the low pressure test I use the gas we are running, propane or natural.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

TerryTotoSucks said:


> I usually have the nitrogen out and already connected on new systems.


Are you like welding or brazing with a method that requires shielding? I just don’t understand where/why the nitrogen comes into play testing or fitting up gas piping. It seems very specialized, I feel like I’m missing something critical here. I was thinking you meant med gas or something but then you said low pressure test with propane/ng and now I’m more confused.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> Not sure exactly what you’re poking at. The mens side is all right hand flush and womens left hand because they were roughed back to back with a tee for the supply for simplicity’s sake. Inconsequential since they are all sensor flush anyway, but it puts the manual flush button out of the corner on the two handicaps how it should be.
> 
> Please clarify if I’m missing the point lol


That's exactly it, noticed they were opposite of the norm. I almost never see that where I am so it caught my eye.

Did you use cross tees to allow for a hammer arrestor?


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

skoronesa said:


> That's exactly it, noticed they were opposite of the norm. I almost never see that where I am so it caught my eye.
> 
> Did you use cross tees to allow for a hammer arrestor?


The arrestors serve four fixtures each so they’re teed off of the trunk in the wall. You may be able to see one in the older pics from the rough.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> Are you like welding or brazing with a method that requires shielding? I just don’t understand where/why the nitrogen comes into play testing or fitting up gas piping. It seems very specialized, I feel like I’m missing something critical here. I was thinking you meant med gas or something but then you said low pressure test with propane/ng and now I’m more confused.


He's likely installing gas furnaces with A/C coils. For those he'd need Nitrogen for brazing and testing.

The gas coming into a home is low pressure compared to most water piping, certainly low compared to most refrigeration gases.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

We don’t do HVAC beyond firing appliances and servicing the piping in boilers so pardon my ignorance. Put in simple terms like they it makes sense. You got it sitting there in a bottle and don’t have to drag in a compressor… more power to ya!


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Nitrogen in a gas line is not needed,it is just costing you more money and you still gotta drag tanks out and all the crap that goes with it,I will stick to my ounce gauge and tire pump


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## TerryTotoSucks (5 mo ago)

sparky said:


> Nitrogen in a gas line is not needed,it is just costing you more money and you still gotta drag tanks out and all the crap that goes with it,I will stick to my ounce gauge and tire pump


I braze my gas lines and I flow nitrogen when I do. 

I do high quality work and I charge the customer for the gas. 👍


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

To clarify there was 80’ of 2” and 180’ of 1” steel. So both nitrogen and the bike pump would’ve been a little out of their respective leagues. We will certain bike pump a couple small runs in a house but the atmosphere I’m working in most frequently the air compressor and the differential test (kuhlman) are seemingly the most efficient method.

I’ve never touched a nitrogen tank… at work at least 🤘


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)




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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

TerryTotoSucks said:


> I braze my gas lines and I flow nitrogen when I do.
> 
> I do high quality work and I charge the customer for the gas. 👍


I don't use copper on gas lines and gas lines are not supposed to be brazed,you are doing it all wrong, run screw pipe up to 2" and then weld it after 2" and up,I have never in 25yrs seen or heard anyone brazing copper together for a gas line,explosion waiting to happen


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> To clarify there was 80’ of 2” and 180’ of 1” steel. So both nitrogen and the bike pump would’ve been a little out of their respective leagues. We will certain bike pump a couple small runs in a house but the atmosphere I’m working in most frequently the air compressor and the differential test (kuhlman) are seemingly the most efficient method.
> 
> I’ve never touched a nitrogen tank… at work at least 🤘


Wrong,the ounce gauge will work fine on a system like that,this is what most gas companies use when they do their test


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## TerryTotoSucks (5 mo ago)

sparky said:


> I don't use copper on gas lines and gas lines are not supposed to be brazed,you are doing it all wrong, run screw pipe up to 2" and then weld it after 2" and up,I have never in 25yrs seen or heard anyone brazing copper together for a gas line,explosion waiting to happen


You’re incorrect. I suggest you researching the subject. ✌


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

TerryTotoSucks said:


> You’re incorrect. I suggest you researching the subject. ✌


I could be wrong it’s happened before


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

I’ve cut out soft copper gas lines.

I didn’t say the ounce gauge was out of its league, I said the tire pump was. Our local providers have accepted 50 psi gauge at 5 psi for house lines, and 150 psi at 90 psi for service lines. I’ve never seen a gas company do their own test.
They just bring out a sniffer and if you’re leaking they lock out your meter. Up to you to hire a plumber to find and fix the leak.


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## TerryTotoSucks (5 mo ago)

If I wanted to get fancy I could test with the nitrogen then pull a vacuum down to about 300 microns. 

boom goes the dynamite


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)




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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

Why do architect call for chrome traps with lav guards? Almost every commercial job I’ve been on has been like this. As far as my brain tells me the chrome traps are an aesthetic thing and lav guards completely negate that.

Why not just use plastic traps? We tried to get away with it once and I had to go back and swap out 27 :1 1/4” plastic traps after the owner did their take over inspection on the space.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> Why do architect call for chrome traps with lav guards? Almost every commercial job I’ve been on has been like this. As far as my brain tells me the chrome traps are an aesthetic thing and lav guards completely negate that.
> 
> Why not just use plastic traps? We tried to get away with it once and I had to go back and swap out 27 :1 1/4” plastic traps after the owner did their take over inspection on the space.


Because chrome traps don't melt and allow the drain/vent to be a source of oxygen for a fire.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

skoronesa said:


> Because chrome traps don't melt and allow the drain/vent to be a source of oxygen for a fire.


I mean the rubber washers will melt between the slip joints and out of the clean out pretty readily…?

the waters boils out of the trap and it’s feeding through the sink… I just don’t see it


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> Because chrome traps don't melt and allow the drain/vent to be a source of oxygen for a fire.


Wrong,the trap wrap is a necessity if handicap accessible,when they run hot water down the drain the chrome traps get hottttt and will burn someone in a wheelchair or other Ada contraption,this is why trap wrap is mandatory on chrome and plastic traps,plus it keeps them from getting cut by the pipes


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

sparky said:


> Wrong,the trap wrap is a necessity if handicap accessible,when they run hot water down the drain the chrome traps get hottttt and will burn someone in a wheelchair or other Ada contraption,this is why trap wrap is mandatory on chrome and plastic traps,plus it keeps them from getting cut by the pipes


I understand why the trap wraps are there. The question is if it’s getting trap wrapped it hides the chrome p-trap’s visual appeal. So if it’s for fireproofing so be it, but the job was submitted with plastic as the piping material… seems counterintuitive to protect the trap if the Desanco is just melting off anyway and causing the same problem lol


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> I understand why the trap wraps are there. The question is if it’s getting trap wrapped it hides the chrome p-trap’s visual appeal. So if it’s for fireproofing so be it, but the job was submitted with plastic as the piping material… seems counterintuitive to protect the trap if the Desanco is just melting off anyway and causing the same problem lol


I agree with you,we do the same thing put chrome traps to a pvc pipe then cover it up,should just throw a tubular pvc ptrap on it but if it's in the specs to be chrome then if you get caught you have to change them out


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> I mean the rubber washers will melt between the slip joints and out of the clean out pretty readily…?
> 
> the waters boils out of the trap and it’s feeding through the sink… I just don’t see it


Because it's not about IF it will fail but HOW LONG. A fire rating doesn't mean something won't burn, it just means it will take long enough to burn that people will have time to escape/be rescued.

That trap adapter sticking out the wall should have a metal escutcheon over it and is much thicker than a cheap plastic slip joint poly trap. Or were you saying they should have used solvent pvc traps? Also, even if the washers melt on the metal trap it's much less air than a plastic trap just falling off and exposing the full bore. Yes it seems odd to use nice traps only to cover them up, but it also seems odd that commercial jobs often spec no-hub cast iron garbage, until you remember they need to meet a fire code.

If it were up to me all drains would be sched. 40 solid pvc and have slip joint pp traps, but fire code exists and supposedly my ideals aren't good enough. I am okay with single union solvent pvc traps, but they cost more and aren't easy for me to get.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

skoronesa said:


> Because it's not about IF it will fail but HOW LONG. A fire rating doesn't mean something won't burn, it just means it will take long enough to burn that people will have time to escape/be rescued.
> 
> That trap adapter sticking out the wall should have a metal escutcheon over it and is much thicker than a cheap plastic slip joint poly trap. Or were you saying they should have used solvent pvc traps? Also, even if the washers melt on the metal trap it's much less air than a plastic trap just falling off and exposing the full bore. Yes it seems odd to use nice traps only to cover them up, but it also seems odd that commercial jobs often spec no-hub cast iron garbage, until you remember they need to meet a fire code.
> 
> If it were up to me all drains would be sched. 40 solid pvc and have slip joint pp traps, but fire code exists and supposedly my ideals aren't good enough. I am okay with single union solvent pvc traps, but they cost more and aren't easy for me to get.


If the brass traps are for fire rating, I’m onboard for using them. Usually we would use pp slip traps or as we refer to them, bag traps. Only time we use single union joint traps is for triple bowl sinks.

I know they should for many reasons including code have escutcheons but I was given direct instructions to install without, and I don’t have the power to order them and overrule the foreman on the job. I’m learning how to do a lot and learning what I want to do better when I’m in a position to make those calls.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> If the brass traps are for fire rating, I’m onboard for using them. Usually we would use pp slip traps or as we refer to them, bag traps. Only time we use single union joint traps is for triple bowl sinks.
> 
> I know they should for many reasons including code have escutcheons but I was given direct instructions to install without, and I don’t have the power to order them and overrule the foreman on the job. I’m learning how to do a lot and learning what I want to do better when I’m in a position to make those calls.


You were told absolutely 100% correct,it is not necessary to put any eschution on a trap that gets trap wrap,the wrap will go all the way to the wall and you couldn't see the eschutionanyways,plus the trap wrap goes on better without the eschution


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> View attachment 133797


everyone of those lavatories would fail inspection here. And not because the escuseon debate. Also, why not use sweat on caps since you’re sweating to the stabilizer bars? Unless you’re not paying for the material. We don’t use chrome traps even if it’s specked and I make sure it’s noted in our submittals during acceptance. Most owners will opt for a 2.00 part vs a 28.00 part that you’re never going to see.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> everyone of those lavatories would fail inspection here. And not because the escuseon debate. Also, why not use sweat on caps since you’re sweating to the stabilizer bars? Unless you’re not paying for the material. We don’t use chrome traps even if it’s specked and I make sure it’s noted in our submittals during acceptance. Most owners will opt for a 2.00 part vs a 28.00 part that you’re never going to see.


I am a lowly apprentice as of yet and I have not seen the submittals for this job. Have looked over the fixture schedule a few times to ensure there were no special sinks or provisions for other fixtures but I’m more of “do this today and if you need help ask” kind of guy.

I was not involved in the lavs in either of back to back groups. But I’d say no sweat fittings we’re ordered for simplicity’s sake. 

please enlighten me on what’s wrong with them besides the escutcheons I looked the pics over a few times to see if I could spot anything.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Your lavs and traps are just fine,just make sure to get your inspection before you install trap wrap,we used to put metal eschution on the traps but would end up cutting them off because they took up to much room and made installing trap wrap Almost impossible,so now if a lav gets wrap we do not put eschution on the trap


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

We would be required to use offset grid strainers on every one of them. Don’t ask me why, it’s just how it is around here. Any public lavatory or counter can’t exceed 34”’ above the rim height and then the knee clearance is a big deal with a wall hung lav. What’s even more stupid is requiring a 34” counter height in a break room but no leg or knee clearance. And I’ve see quite a few counters and base cabinets removed and cut down to achieve that maximum height.


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## Lickitlikeafritter (12 mo ago)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> We would be required to use offset grid strainers on every one of them. Don’t ask me why, it’s just how it is around here. Any public lavatory or counter can’t exceed 34”’ above the rim height and then the knee clearance is a big deal with a wall hung lav. What’s even more stupid is requiring a 34” counter height in a break room but no leg or knee clearance. And I’ve see quite a few counters and base cabinets removed and cut down to achieve that maximum height.


These sinks and traps will be checked by an ADA inspector with a template… maybe the angle of the picture is misleading but they’re all 34 to the lip and allow for wheelchair access by having the strainer set back pretty far in the porcelain.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Lickitlikeafritter said:


> These sinks and traps will be checked by an ADA inspector with a template… maybe the angle of the picture is misleading but they’re all 34 to the lip and allow for wheelchair access by having the strainer set back pretty far in the porcelain.


Yea. If you got that 8” clearance 27” down from the lav and back towards the tailpiece then you should be good. I think it’s 27. I could be wrong.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

We


ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> We would be required to use offset grid strainers on every one of them. Don’t ask me why, it’s just how it is around here. Any public lavatory or counter can’t exceed 34”’ above the rim height and then the knee clearance is a big deal with a wall hung lav. What’s even more stupid is requiring a 34” counter height in a break room but no leg or knee clearance. And I’ve see quite a few counters and base cabinets removed and cut down to achieve that maximum height.


We just put offset grid drains on the Ada lavs only,there is no need to make them all Ada,that's crazy but some places codes are like that
Also when you install an offset grid drain do you use the nut to tighten the strainer up???


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

sparky said:


> We
> 
> We just put offset grid drains on the Ada lavs only,there is no need to make them all Ada,that's crazy but some places codes are like that
> Also when you install an offset grid drain do you use the nut to tighten the strainer up???


no, just the shoe.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

We


ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> We would be required to use offset grid strainers on every one of them. Don’t ask me why, it’s just how it is around here. Any public lavatory or counter can’t exceed 34”’ above the rim height and then the knee clearance is a big deal with a wall hung lav. What’s even more stupid is requiring a 34” counter height in a break room but no leg or knee clearance. And I’ve see quite a few counters and base cabinets removed and cut down to achieve that maximum height.


just put offset grid drains on the Ada lavs only,there is no need to make them all Ada,that's crazy but some places c


ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> no, just the shoe.


just checking your answer lolololo


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