# Are fire sprinklers and domestic water crossed?



## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

Has there been changes I never seen a sprink tee'ed off a domestic line? In california its a seperate lic. sprinklers. Just wondering, I havent plumbed a new house in some time 7 years.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

jeffreyplumber said:


> Has there been changes I never seen a sprink tee'ed off a domestic line? In california its a seperate lic. sprinklers. Just wondering, I havent plumbed a new house in some time 7 years.


 Backflow protection is required in my neck of the woods.

I usually meet with the sprinkler installers at the beginning of the job and tell them to give me a mark on the wall or floor where they would like to see their feed -- I then provide them with the appropriately sized line and a ball valve.

What they do with it after that is no concern of mine.


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## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

In Colorado in areas using the IPC, the sprinkler system may be tied into the domestic cold water supply for single family homes. Commercial still has to be done the same way it always has been.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

greenscoutII said:


> In Colorado in areas using the IPC, the sprinkler system may be tied into the domestic cold water supply for single family homes. Commercial still has to be done the same way it always has been.


 No cross connection restrictions under the IPC?


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## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

Widdershins said:


> No cross connection restrictions under the IPC?


I don't think so, but I'm digging out my code book... Where I lived and worked (mostly) we used the UPC, so I'm not as familiar.... Stand by....


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Illinois allows it providing:

-the system shall be looped with no dead ends to prevent stagnation

- the system shall not have any nonpotable connections or a Siamese connection

- 20 heads or less

- the system is constructed of potable water supply quality pipe.

If those are met no backflow protection is required.


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## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

Colgar said:


> Illinois allows it providing:
> 
> -the system shall be looped with no dead ends to prevent stagnation
> 
> ...


Thanks Colgar!


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

You're Welcome.

Keep in mind that's out of IL's code. I have no idea what other codes allow or don't allow.


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## sprinklertech (Oct 24, 2010)

Colgar said:


> Illinois allows it providing:
> 
> -the system shall be looped with no dead ends to prevent stagnation
> 
> ...


I've heard the 20 heads or less limit before but I am curious to know what there thinking was on that. From a fire protection standpoint it doesn't make any difference because once you have two operating heads in a compartment it doesn't impact water demand whether there is 5 sprinklers, 20 sprinklers or 100 sprinklers in a dwelling.

Code departments need to adjust their way of looking at things to accommodate changes in other parts of codes and standards. One of these is the acceptance of combined domestic/sprinkler systems for one and two family dwelling units as superior to separate systems. 

Someone mentioned their jurisdiction required sprinklers to be fed from a separate tap or source. At first separate feeds might sound a better thing to do but in my opinion separate feeds for one and two family dwellings is a very bad idea.

I know why some require separate systems it is a spill over from avoiding liability should the customer not pay his water bill. Shutting off the water impairs the fire sprinkler system which is a felony. If a city really wants to face some real liability watch what happens when someone die in a fire that got out of control because the water department shut the sprinkler off for non-payment of a water bill.

Your home is your castle and once you move in the only way a fire or building inspector can gain entrance is with a court order and that takes cause. In other words once the homeowner occupies the home that sprinkler system might not be inspected for 100 years unless the homeowner invites someone in. Fireman Bob pounding the front door demanding entrance won't fly.

It's easy to shut off a separate feed system... just cut the lock off and close the valve but if it is a combined system, just one valve controls sprinkler and all domestic water, the sprinkler will stay on from necessity. 

As far as liability for the city I don't think it exists. With combined systems if domestic water is shut off the sprinkler is shut off as well but the property becomes unlivable. If something is wrong with sprinkler it is going to get repaired in short order if the homeowner can't flush a toilet.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

sprinklertech said:


> I've heard the 20 heads or less limit before but I am curious to know what there thinking was on that. From a fire protection standpoint it doesn't make any difference because once you have two operating heads in a compartment it doesn't impact water demand whether there is 5 sprinklers, 20 sprinklers or 100 sprinklers in a dwelling.


If you're asking me why it's 20 heads or less, I have no idea. Taking a wild guess, I might say there was some politics involved in setting that number, but that's a complete guess.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

I hear Ca is going to require sprinkler in all homes built and that they will be cross conected. I just dont get how a fire sprinkler contractor can do this job or a plumbing contractor can do it. It would take a combo licence. other wise who is responceble for the piping?


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## luv2plumb (Apr 30, 2010)

jeffreyplumber said:


> I hear Ca is going to require sprinkler in all homes built and that they will be cross conected. I just dont get how a fire sprinkler contractor can do this job or a plumbing contractor can do it. It would take a combo licence. other wise who is responceble for the piping?


The sprinkler pipe will have a backflow device installed at the point of tie-in. Here in Texas residential sprinklers can be installed by a licensed plumber with the proper endorsement.


*Sec. 1301.3565. ENDORSEMENT: MULTIPURPOSE RESIDENTIAL FIRE
PROTECTION SPRINKLER SPECIALIST.*
Text of subsection effective on June 01, 2010
(a) A person may not engage in the installation of a multipurpose residential fire protection 
sprinkler system that uses a single piping system to provide potable water for fire 
protection sprinklers and for domestic plumbing fixtures and appliances unless the person:
(1) is licensed under this chapter as a master plumber or journeyman plumber; and
(2) holds an endorsement issued under this section.
(b) The board shall issue an endorsement as a multipurpose residential fire protection 
sprinkler specialist to a person who:
(1) holds the license described by Subsection (a);
(2) applies to the board on a form prescribed by the board;
(3) pays a fee set by the board;
(4) presents evidence satisfactory to the board of successful completion of a training 
program approved by the board that provides the training necessary for the proper 
installation of a multipurpose residential fire protection sprinkler system as required by the 
applicable codes and standards recognized by the state; and
(5) passes an examination required by the board.
(c) An endorsement issued under this section is valid until the third anniversary of the date 
of issuance and may be renewed on compliance with any requirements prescribed by 
board rule.
(d) A person who holds an endorsement under this section may represent to the public 
that the person is a multipurpose residential fire protection sprinkler specialist.
(e) Notwithstanding any other law, a person who holds an endorsement under this section 
is not required to hold a license or registration issued by another state agency in order to 
install a multipurpose residential fire protection sprinkler system.
(f) A plumbing inspector who meets the requirements of the board may inspect a 
multipurpose residential fire protection sprinkler installation.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

Im talking about a different type of system not a traditional one where the 2 systems are isolated by some kind of check but a system where through out the house there are heads that tee off the domestic water piping. Is this how some systems are being installed?


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## luv2plumb (Apr 30, 2010)

jeffreyplumber said:


> Im talking about a different type of system not a traditional one where the 2 systems are isolated by some kind of check but a system where through out the house there are heads that tee off the domestic water piping. Is this how some systems are being installed?


If it is part of the domestic water line; only a licensed plumber with the endorsement can install. 

If it is a multipurpose sprinkler system then why are you asking about cross connections?


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## Wafflefryer (Nov 4, 2010)

*Yes you can.....if*



jeffreyplumber said:


> Im talking about a different type of system not a traditional one where the 2 systems are isolated by some kind of check but a system where through out the house there are heads that tee off the domestic water piping. Is this how some systems are being installed?


 
You need to be a c-16 contractor to install multipurpose systems in California. Uponor has been designing these systems for c-16 contractors already in California. You should contact them for more information. They are providing installation training too.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

here in WI, it's part of our school and license to install multipurpose piping systems. I don't know of any contractors that do them here and i'm not sure what the demand is. I learned how to do it in school, but I doubt I could install one now.


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## Squeak TN (Feb 8, 2011)

RW Plumbing said:


> here in WI, it's part of our school and license to install multipurpose piping systems. I don't know of any contractors that do them here and i'm not sure what the demand is. I learned how to do it in school, but I doubt I could install one now.


Main thing is too install a back flow preventer on the sprinkler system. Far as installation goes, on the residential side. You only install heads in occupied rooms ie. Bedrooms, living rooms. Not closets, or rooms like that. Far as type of pipe you have steel pipe, or the more popular pipe for homes CPVC pipe by Blazemaster. Check with local Fire marshal to find out which code they use. Hope this helped you somewhat.

Sent from my iPad using PlumbingZone


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## Wafflefryer (Nov 4, 2010)

*Not Quite*



Squeak TN said:


> Main thing is too install a back flow preventer on the sprinkler system. Far as installation goes, on the residential side. You only install heads in occupied rooms ie. Bedrooms, living rooms. Not closets, or rooms like that. Far as type of pipe you have steel pipe, or the more popular pipe for homes CPVC pipe by Blazemaster. Check with local Fire marshal to find out which code they use. Hope this helped you somewhat.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PlumbingZone


 
You're thinking of a stand-alone system, not a multipurpose syste, In a multipurpose system, all of the water is potable. there are no check valves or backflow devices in a multipurpose system. You'll shower with the same water that feeds the sprinklers.

The important thing is to sizethe sytem based on the sprinkler demand. As you run your sprinkler tubing past plumbing fixtures, You can supply each on individually or use some type of manifold system to pick up more than one fixture.


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## Squeak TN (Feb 8, 2011)

O, okay I see. Thanks I didn't know that, learned something new. The way u explained it make sense to me now. I can think of the positive side too it an also the negatives.

Sent from my iPad using PlumbingZone


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

I see its called multipurpose system. obviously it must require the sprinklers and domestic water be fitted by the same company. When I used to plumb custom homes we had no plans just a floor plan and the plumber piped it any way he wanted providing it was sized to UPC code obviously this would not work on a multi purpose system. So i guess the water need be ran by whoever is fitting the sprinklers and the plumber just runs waste and gas?


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## luv2plumb (Apr 30, 2010)

jeffreyplumber said:


> I see its called multipurpose system. obviously it must require the sprinklers and domestic water be fitted by the same company. When I used to plumb custom homes we had no plans just a floor plan and the plumber piped it any way he wanted providing it was sized to UPC code obviously this would not work on a multi purpose system. *So i guess the water need be ran by whoever is fitting the sprinklers and the plumber just runs waste and gas?*


If it is a multipurpose system it has to be installed by a licensed plumber because it is part of the potable water.


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## Wafflefryer (Nov 4, 2010)

*Correct*



luv2plumb said:


> If it is a multipurpose system it has to be installed by a licensed plumber because it is part of the potable water.


 
Right. you'll need to be a licensed plumber in California with a C-16 license.


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## luv2plumb (Apr 30, 2010)

Wafflefryer said:


> Right. you'll need to be a licensed plumber in California with a C-16 license.



I understand that....in TX you need to have the MRFPS endorsement


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

Ok c 36 is plumbing c 16 is fire protection So I need both endorcements . It sounds like a good deal for us plumbers to get in on some more work! Because a fire sprinkler company isnt going to want to go into plumbing in most cases. Are these multi purpose systems becoming commonplace?


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## Wafflefryer (Nov 4, 2010)

*Are they?*



jeffreyplumber said:


> Are these multi purpose systems becoming commonplace?


 
Commonplace? I don't know but the demand for them is growing. You're right to want to get some marketshare though. If you are not looking at doing your own designs, get somebody who will give you a warranty on the design they provide.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

My guess is this type system will be cheaper particulary on tract homes. Im not in tract home work, but this is where we probebly see them first


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## slowforthecones (Apr 20, 2009)

i guess me with the c10, c16 and c36. i'd always be in business!


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## bchplumbing (Oct 24, 2009)

Here in Missouri we use a seperate water source. Check out my pics and you will see the fire main and the domestic water main. they are seperate.


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## Wafflefryer (Nov 4, 2010)

*Why not install a combined system?*



bchplumbing said:


> Here in Missouri we use a seperate water source. Check out my pics and you will see the fire main and the domestic water main. they are seperate.


Check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/user/UponorNA#p/c/CF991EA77A993BC9/4/MC0VWabiUtY


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## bchplumbing (Oct 24, 2009)

wafflefryer, that was a cool video! I wonder if the Uponor tool is compatable with Wirsbo? That is what I use Not for fire but for plumbing. Pex still hasn't been sanctioned for fire here in the Ozarks.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

bchplumbing said:


> wafflefryer, that was a cool video! I wonder if the Uponor tool is compatable with Wirsbo? That is what I use Not for fire but for plumbing. Pex still hasn't been sanctioned for fire here in the Ozarks.


 Wirsbo changed the company name to Uponor a year or so ago.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Widdershins said:


> Wirsbo changed the company name to Uponor a year or so ago.


I think its been longer than that... :laughing:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Any of you Florida plumbers install fire suppression equipment? If so, do tell.


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## roving plumber (Apr 25, 2011)

Some new subdivisions in N. Idaho are requiring sprinkler systems due to access or too remote, the pex system integrated w/potable looks good on print but wet sprinkler systems don’t fair too well in freezable space ie: attics or exterior walls


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## abudgetplumb (Aug 22, 2011)

in my short career, i've never seen a system like that. if tied into the potable seems like it would be safe to install check valve but as long as the h20 is circulating & proper potable water pipe is used i can't find anything wrong with it, except higher price for materials due to larger pipe.


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## Wafflefryer (Nov 4, 2010)

*Multipurpose System*

Potable/Fire sprinkler integated systems are called 'Multipurpose Systems' and they have been around for almost 2 decades I think. 

Uponor is easily the industry leader in these types of systems.

Their website is full of info on these and they never use tubing larger than 1" in their systems.





 
http://uponorpro.com/Extranet/Layou...aspx?id={B6CA0B69-C9E7-4A46-BA05-03F19ACD3848}


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## sprinklertech (Oct 24, 2010)

Wafflefryer said:


> Potable/Fire sprinkler integated systems are called 'Multipurpose Systems' and they have been around for almost 2 decades I think.
> 
> Uponor is easily the industry leader in these types of systems.
> 
> Their website is full of info on these and they never use tubing larger than 1" in their systems.


1" is plenty large enough for nearly all one and two family dwellings.

With few exceptions, and there are some for example specifically listed sprinklers protecting steeply pitched ceilings, the design for most dwellings will have a maximum of two sprinklers operating.

The way the Uponor system works is each sprinkler is fed by three lines so the system is a multiple patchwork of small grids.

Grids, or loops, can greatly decrease the size of tube needed.

For example take the demand of two sprinklers each discharging 9.0 gpm for a total of 18.0 gpm.

To make it easy on ourselves assume 100' of 3/4" (use an ID of 0.824" the same as steel sch. 40) line feeding these two sprinklers. 

Head loss developed over 100' is 0.230 psi/linear foot or 23.0 psi total.

If we looped it so we would have two identical 1" lines feeding the sprinklers each line would carry 9.0 gpm. Right off hand man would think half the water flowing would cut the head loss in half to 11.5 psi but this isn't true. Doubling the water nearly squares the friction/head loss but to be accurate it increases by ^1.85. By cutting the quantity in half you will almost achieve the square root of the original loss. With 23.0 psi loss I would expect (this is a guess off the top of my head) the loss to be somewhere between 5 and 6 psi. 

Let's see how close I got.

Missed it a bit, actual loss at 9.0 gpm is .064 psi/foot for a total of 6.4 psi over the entire length. You can see what happens, if half the flow the loss is nearly the square root and conversely if you double the flow the loss is nearly four times as much.

But Uponer feeds each head with 3 lines.... with three lines we can expect 6 gpm through each (as long as lengths were identical) at at 6 gpm our loss would be .030 psi/foot or 3.0 psi over the 100 foot length.

If you set it up right I can easily see the loss through the overhead pipe being just 1 or 2 psi.... this isn't much at all and I used 3/4". With 1" the loss would almost be negligible.

And now you know why they grid the pipe like they do. 

I've had lots of commercial systems where the riser and largest main is 4" and lines of 1 1/2" where I gridded the system. If for some reason I didn't grid it I can easily envision the riser at 8", mains being 6" with the lines increasing to 2" or 2 1/2" which would add a huge amount to the cost of system. Cost between 4" and 8" is staggering.


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## Wafflefryer (Nov 4, 2010)

sprinklertech said:


> But Uponer feeds each head with 3 lines....


 
Missed again..:laughing:

Did you watch the video?

Uponor designs a loop, supplying sprinklers with 2 lines.

Their old system used 1/2" tubing with 4 paths but they don't really design those much anymore.

Bas of riser demands for a 1" system are usually around 25 psi.


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## Paddy (Sep 2, 2011)

[QUOTETheir old system used 1/2" tubing with 4 paths but they don't really design those much anymore.[/QUOTE]Uponor dropped the Network system because of a patent dispute with the inventor of the 4-port sprinkler fitting. HeatLink is now supplying the PEX tubing and fittings for Networks, although they do not publicize it yet.

As indicated by this thread, there is a lot of confusion over the need for backflow preventers. The problem is that a multipurpose piping system can range from a Network - where water flows through every section of the distribution lines when a plumbing fixture or sprinkler operates - and thus is 100 percent potable, to what I call a "Tree + Toity" system - where there is a connection from the sprinkelr pipe to one toilet - and the rest of the water in the system is standing.

A lot of plumbing officials and water purveyors require backflow preventers for this version of multipurpose systems because of the volume of standing water, even though they technically meet the definition of "multipurpose." The same goes for looped systems that use rigid pipe. Lots of branch lines with standing water.

I am preparing a one-day seminar on Plumbing-based Fire Protection. That term refers to a system where the sprinklers and plumbing fixtures are fully integrated into one system instead of the plumbing being an afterthought. One of the many advantages is that the hydraulic calculations include the plumbing fixtures, so plumbing contractors can prove that there will be suffcient pressure at fixtures like lo-flow shower heads to operate properly. I hear that this is becoming a problem in places like CA, which requires them in new homes.


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## luv2plumb (Apr 30, 2010)

I don't see any confusion.....if the sprinkler system is tied into or branched off the potable system at the point of entry in the building or house then yes a backflow is needed. If it is a multipurpose system which is defined in the NFPA 13D as "a piping system intended to serve both domestic and fire protection needs." then a backflow is not needed. It would be no different than a normal water supply to a house.




And by the way you need to go here first.....http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/


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## Paddy (Sep 2, 2011)

luv2plumb said:


> I don't see any confusion.....if the sprinkler system is tied into or branched off the potable system at the point of entry in the building or house then yes a backflow is needed. If it is a multipurpose system which is defined in the NFPA 13D as "a piping system intended to serve both domestic and fire protection needs." then a backflow is not needed. It would be no different than a normal water supply to a house.


The issue of standing water in sprinkler branch lines continues to vex water purveyors. They own the water supply and what they say goes, despite what the codes or standards say.

Happily, there are three basic ways to pipe sprinklers, Trees, Loops and Grids (or "Networks" to the sprinkler industry). Trees are completely separated from the potable water, flexible Loops range from completely separated to all potable, and Grids are all potable. Thus, Grids will satisfy the concerns of the purists in the purveyor community, and some Loops will also.


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## sprinklertech (Oct 24, 2010)

Wafflefryer said:


> Missed again..:laughing:
> 
> Did you watch the video?
> 
> ...


No, I didn't watch. I guess I should have but if everything is looped with 1" there won't be any problem and you are right, I would expect 25 psi to handle about anything.


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