# Union vs non-union.



## Plumber1970 (Mar 6, 2013)

Here is my scenario and dilemma:

I am currently a union journeyman plumber. 
I also have been recently asked by a non-union contractor to start up their service department. 

I am trying to weigh the pros and cons of leaving the union for an opportunity to start up and lead a service department. 

Any thoughts from either union and non-union contractors and plumbers would be appreciated. 

Thank you


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Here's a few things to consider;
If you are serious, you'll have to look at the package offered and not just the salary. And, what kind of employment guarantee they will offer if the service dept doesn't pan out to their liking. You'll also have to consider if you will forfeit any of the union pension hours you have built up and if the hall will welcome you back with open arms if things don't work out.


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## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

first of all, do you have service experience to lead this department? Everyone would be looking to you for answers.

I think you should also list the details so we could give a better answer.


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## Plumber1970 (Mar 6, 2013)

to AKdaplumber:
Yes I believe I have the experience to lead a service dept. I will admit I don't know everything but I will be sure to do research to find the answers to questions asked. 
I have been doing service work for 15+ years. Learned old school plumbing from a small "mom and pop" shop, but also know current trends and technology. 
Some details are: 
Union wage is $38/hr vs Non union would be $30
Union contractor offers no paid vacation. Non union offers paid vacation.
Union contractor has an overtime paid after 8hrs per day vs non union OT paid after 40hrs worked.
Non union contractor offering me 1yr old high cube van vs union contractor has me working out of 1999 1 ton Chevy van that has seen much better days. 
Newer tools and better tools available at non union contractor. 
Union contract has health insurance included in overall wage package vs non union I would pay $150/week
Union dues are average $140/week. 

I hope this helps with any honest opinions and thoughts. 

Thank you


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

What about pension?


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## Plumber1970 (Mar 6, 2013)

To Plumbus:

Good questions for me to inquire about at union hall. Thank you. 

I would be taking a pay cut indeed going to non union shop so salary is not the big picture alone. 

The opportunity to lead the service dept would definitely give me insight to my desire to open my own shop in the future. 
I will surely ask the owner of non union shop what would the outcome be if the service dept did not do as well as expected and what position I would hold afterwards. 

Thank you for your insight.


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## Plumber1970 (Mar 6, 2013)

Right now union does not allow members to access 401k until retirement or out of the union for 12 consecutive months. I could roll over 401k to non union contractors 401k offerings or go on my own. 
I will inquire about my current pension and non union pension this week.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

What about the lost income you do understand you are going backwards. Is there any incentives to close the gap in pay?


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## TC27 (Mar 10, 2012)

your dues are $140/week? that seems awful high, you pay 9% dues? we only pay 3% here.


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## Plumber1970 (Mar 6, 2013)

For 30hrs worked I paid $95 in dues. Ok maybe dues are closer to $120 per week.


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## Steveking (May 16, 2014)

Stay union think about your health care and your pension need to think long term my dues are about 105 a month local230


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Ok you are loosing somewhere in the amount of 9800 per year in cash. That's not to mention healthcare after you retire. Retirement is made up but you need around 36 to even the field. I still have the opinion that if you are in the union stay retire young enough that you can enjoy later years. Retirement isn't as early on the other side. Most of the good craftsmen on the non union side retire right before they go in a nursing home.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

a lot of non union shops offer a retirement plan. some are better than the union shops and some are not. a lot of union boys have on their union blinders and will argue forever that they have it better than everyone else. there are plenty of places of employment where the union forced the company to move out. the employees with 40 years dont have much to show for all of their union dues. union or not, compare apples to apples and do what is right for you. we dont know what your new company pays or has to offer so figure it out. it doesnt matter if its union or not.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> there are plenty of places of employment where the union forced the company to move out. the employees with 40 years don't have much to show for all of their union dues.


I'm not aware of any locals screwing members out of vested pensions. DOL attorneys would send a local business manager up the river for attempting that. Can you give us an example?


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

ask any big union person in wisconsin, especially teachers and public sector employees. they dont like scott walker. collective bargaining was taken away. tecumseh engines, closed the doors and are gone. ask the locals how that worked for them.


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## Plumber1970 (Mar 6, 2013)

To SchmitzPlumbing:

I am a Wisconsin journeyman. 
I know my pension is vested and will stay with me after I leave the union. 
The opportunity is almost too good to pass up. Not being able to touch 401k except to adjust where I invest or choose to participate I a big deal for me. 
I was laid off for 3.5 years and I was unable to solicit or search for an employer with a position available. That has left a negative impression on me. 
As a result of being laid off and UNDERemployed I have racked up so much debt. I wish I could borrow against or divest my 401k to eliminate my debt. Unable to do that while in the union. Another negative impression. 

I don't have the full benefit package being offered by the nonunion shop but what I have been told is very inviting. 

Thank you for your opinion.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> a lot of non union shops offer a retirement plan. some are better than the union shops and some are not. a lot of union boys have on their union blinders and will argue forever that they have it better than everyone else. there are plenty of places of employment where the union forced the company to move out. the employees with 40 years dont have much to show for all of their union dues. union or not, compare apples to apples and do what is right for you. we dont know what your new company pays or has to offer so figure it out. it doesnt matter if its union or not.


 don't you usually have full retirement at 30 years of service?even if the company left the dues were paid to the local. Don't take this the wrong way but the union has a pretty good gig they are well trained and are good craftsman. I have also seen the other side of the union that was not very pleasant but it was in a different time. 70,s and 80,s were a difficult time for us all. Now the choices are there for a craftsman that has talent and wants to expand his knowledge. The benefits was what I was worried about,I have no drought that he can run the service just trying to help him think of all of the angles.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

i have nothing against the union. a j-man plumber used me as a reference last week and got hired as a union equipment operator and will make a lot more than most local plumbers and will have better insurance and benefits than i can dream about. all that i am saying is watch for the pros and cons. its not about union or non union, or burger king or mc donalds. its a plumbing career.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Plumbus said:


> I'm not aware of any locals screwing members out of vested pensions. DOL attorneys would send a local business manager up the river for attempting that. Can you give us an example?


Oklahoma City. Couple of heads went to prison and LOTZ of pension dollars were never recouped. Was back in the 60's or early 70's according to. Gramps.


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## Mike Jessome (Aug 7, 2008)

If you can stay in the union shop i would don't be a turn coat and work for some guy that keeps all the profit for himself your a tradesman you do the work and your entitled to a good pay a pension and benefits you say you get no paid vacation? What about your 10+% vacation pay per week


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## Plumber1970 (Mar 6, 2013)

10+% vacation pay per week? What is that? Nothing like that in my local. 
If you don't work you don't get paid. That's the motto here. No paid sick leave. No personal days. Etc etc.


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## mytxplumber (Jul 28, 2013)

*Union vs non-union*

Why not start your own plumbing company and you take all the risk and get all the reward? It is a great life if you do it right....


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

My question to you is simple: What do you value most in a job and for your career in the long term? 
Answer that and you will know what to do.


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## Plumber1970 (Mar 6, 2013)

To mytxplumber:

I need another year of at least 1000 hours worked as journeyman to complete state of Wisconsin requirement of 3 consecutive years or 1000 hours worked to test for masters license. I was laid off for 3.5 years so that delayed my goal.


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## Plumber1970 (Mar 6, 2013)

Oops meant 3 consecutive years of 1000 hours worked.


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## CT18 (Sep 18, 2012)

Are you saying your working dues, or you pay that out of pocket a week. I am in a local in the Midwest and my dues are no where near that.

Back to your topic. I did almost exactly what you are considering but with a friend who owned the non union business. It did not turn out well as he could not fulfill what he promised. i can only say to you, when push comes to shove these owners will take care of themselves and you are just a number. The moon will be promised when they need you, but if things get rough its every man for themselves.

I had to pay fines to get back in good graces with the union. I am currently working salary in the office but keeping my dues up


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

My monthly dues are 38.00 dollars and then I pay something like 80 dollars a week on a 50 hour check , if I have more hours then my weekly goes up depending upon hours worked.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> Oklahoma City. Couple of heads went to prison and LOTZ of pension dollars were never recouped. Was back in the 60's or early 70's according to. Gramps.


Fortunately, things have changes since the 60's, though a certain UA President was pushed out the door about a decade ago due to questionable business deals. Having spent a little time going through the financial statements of my local's pension and H&W accounts, it's become very clear to me that the feds keep a close eye on the long term health of these accounts. If they dip below a certain percentage vis-a-vis their projected liabilities, they are put on a probationary list which requires them to both report more financials details and submit a plan for righting their ship. If they pass below a certain percentage the feds will take over the account and appoint a receiver.


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## mytxplumber (Jul 28, 2013)

*Union vs non-union*

Have you thought about advertising for a retired master that might want to get back out there and make some money. This way you can take on a partner and you have more say so in the business. He would probably have tools and access to accounts and a new insight to things that would take you years to learn. This would give him a chance to make money and you provide the mobility and labor. In exchange he helps you to get your business up and running and both of you get the benefits. I know this is not as easy as it sounds and you would have hard times, but you will have more freedom to pursue your dreams. There are guys out there that will help someone get started it is a matter of finding the right fit. Good luck out there...


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

Plumbus said:


> it's become very clear to me that the feds keep a close eye on the long term health of these accounts. If they dip below a certain percentage vis-a-vis their projected liabilities, they are put on a probationary list which requires them to both report more financials details and submit a plan for righting their ship. If they pass below a certain percentage the feds will take over the account and appoint a receiver.



If your union pension fund gets to the point where the Gov. takes it on monies paid to you drop to almost pennies on the dollar.My local ran under funded for a while(before the merged) and they sent out a notice with the pecentages that you would get if the fund was taken over,way down from what you would expect to get.

I'm 60 years old as of a week ago so my view is probably skewed a little,but if I retire today my union pension will let me live very comfortably.Union vs. non union I feel that as a union member I have someone watching my back a little bit,someone may argue that but thats my opinion.At my age benefit's outweigh the wage factor.I've had slow weeks,slow years,but only 3 weeks of unenployment compensation since 1973 to present doing only union new constuction,maybe I'm an odd one.


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## Mike Jessome (Aug 7, 2008)

Plumber1970 said:


> 10+% vacation pay per week? What is that? Nothing like that in my local.
> If you don't work you don't get paid. That's the motto here. No paid sick leave. No personal days. Etc etc.


At 35 dollars an hour Canadian I make roughly 120 dollars vacation pay per week close to 500 dollars before taxes which I can take whenever I wish


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## Plumber1970 (Mar 6, 2013)

To mike jessome:

Wish I lived in Canada with those benefits. 
Different strokes for different folks I guess.


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## Plumber1970 (Mar 6, 2013)

When I was laid off for 3.5 years it was horrible. As a union plumber I could not per union rules go out on my own to look for plumbing work. The union wasn't watching my back. I got the line "we have work coming in soon. Just wait a little while longer." After unemployment compensation ran out I called the union rep and was told "guess you better go find a job." How is that for a union taking care of its plumbers? I was underemployed by being a valet parking attendant for $7.50/hr. Wth???


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Plumber1970 said:


> When I was laid off for 3.5 years it was horrible. As a union plumber I could not per union rules go out on my own to look for plumbing work. The union wasn't watching my back. I got the line "we have work coming in soon. Just wait a little while longer." After unemployment compensation ran out I called the union rep and was told "guess you better go find a job." How is that for a union taking care of its plumbers? I was underemployed by being a valet parking attendant for $7.50/hr. Wth???


 you defiantly had a bad experience. I would think you could squeeze a few more dollars out of the other guy maybe bonuses or percentage of gross sales over a set base number every month. Just watch your back because as much as the union seems to have that covered somebody will always slip threw the cracks.


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## CT18 (Sep 18, 2012)

leakfree said:


> If your union pension fund gets to the point where the Gov. takes it on monies paid to you drop to almost pennies on the dollar.My local ran under funded for a while(before the merged) and they sent out a notice with the pecentages that you would get if the fund was taken over,way down from what you would expect to get.
> 
> I'm 60 years old as of a week ago so my view is probably skewed a little,but if I retire today my union pension will let me live very comfortably.Union vs. non union I feel that as a union member I have someone watching my back a little bit,someone may argue that but thats my opinion.At my age benefit's outweigh the wage factor.I've had slow weeks,slow years,but only 3 weeks of unenployment compensation since 1973 to present doing only union new constuction,maybe I'm an odd one.


I worked for Great Lakes Plumbing and Heating for 2 years before we moved back home. I was detailing for the fitters.


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