# Engineers - i hate them!



## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

The whole system system is messed up, there is no way these people should be calling the shots.
Most of them are bookworms with no practical experience at all...
If they want to be plumbing engineers they should work in the field for at least 3 years.
PE's should also have to be specialized, how would it make sense that the guy designing structural beams also can make a plumbing decision??
Most of the time it's actually scary.
Am I the only one with this point of view?


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Oh sorry, I was on the engineering forum ranting about plumbers.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Not sure what that means...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I've had some interesting discussions with engineers on DIYer plumbing forums... :laughing:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

To make the statement, "I hate engineers" is short-sighted and mis-guided. If it weren't for engineers, we wouldn't have brides, skyscrapers or even the pyramids.

Granted, some are college-educated ivy league snobs, but not all.


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> If it weren't for engineers, we wouldn't have brides,


that could be a plus...


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Ha ha, I didn't see that...:laughing:

I meant bridges. I need to do a better job of proofreading.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

I wouldn't say I hate them but I have seen them design some pretty dumb things. That's our job though, to take what they put on paper and make it actually work. If everything was spelled out 100% perfectly on paper then what do you need a plumber for.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

A 3" copper water line 18' up in the air is just a pencil line on paper for an engineer. They definitley don't know how much work is involved in doing the task out in the field. We work in the elements; heat, cold, rain, snow etc.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Engineers based there decisions on facts. They can be cocky, but they know there $hit. It's the architects that we need to worry about.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*I remember some of them*

:laughing:


Redwood said:


> I've had some interesting discussions with engineers on DIYer plumbing forums... :laughing:


if you are talking about terry loves forum I remember a couple of those boobs over there that thought that they walked on water.....

Its always fun to see how they justify their dual tankless water heaters in their homes.... :laughing::laughing:


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## Txmasterplumber (Oct 2, 2010)

Will said:


> Engineers based there decisions on facts. They can be cocky, but they know there $hit. It's the architects that we need to worry about.


I know i'm not the only one that's seen jobs that have been WAY over designed... just because it looks good on paper, dosn't mean thats how it should be.......
x2 on the architects!


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

That's where people get engineers and architects confused. Engineers don't just do stuff that looks good on paper. There stuff is tested in a lab either by them or aanother engineer and they use proven formulas that are true. If anything an engineer is conservative and "over engineers there stuff." Architects will take formulas to the limit and design pretty crap. We need engineers, engineers are what kept the Japan earthquake from destroying more than it did, were as in Haiti every build collapsed and the destruction was worst.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Engineer: definition


Someone educated beyond their intelligence


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Specialist: definition

Someone who knows more and more, about less and less....


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

And in New York City speak...hate means: 

the capacity to irritate profoundly.....


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

NYC Plumber said:


> The whole system system is messed up, there is no way these people should be calling the shots.
> Most of them are bookworms with no practical experience at all...
> If they want to be plumbing engineers they should work in the field for at least 3 years.
> PE's should also have to be specialized, how would it make sense that the guy designing structural beams also can make a plumbing decision??
> ...


I couldn't agree with you more
I love when somehow they get these crazy plans approved yet if I followed them I would fail inspection they seem unaware of dep rules especially regarding fire service 
but I think that some are ok like the ones that design every thing to break in 10 yrs.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

NYC Plumber said:


> The whole system system is messed up, there is no way these people should be calling the shots.
> Most of them are bookworms with no practical experience at all...
> If they want to be plumbing engineers they should work in the field for at least 3 years.
> PE's should also have to be specialized, how would it make sense that the guy designing structural beams also can make a plumbing decision??
> ...


I couldn't agree with you more
I love when somehow they get these crazy plans approved yet if I followed them I would fail inspection they seem unaware of dep rules especially regarding fire service 
but I think that some are ok like the ones that design every thing to break in 10 yrs.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> I couldn't agree with you more
> I love when somehow they get these crazy plans approved yet if I followed them I would fail inspection they seem unaware of dep rules especially regarding fire service
> but I think that some are ok like the ones that design every thing to break in 10 yrs.


Yeah that's what I'm talking about. The contract drawings are so basic and never work anyway.
They put all responsibility on us, then give a hard time the whole way through.
Obviously structural PE's are very important. But since nobody goes to school to become a plumbing engineer, they seem to be bottom of the barrel.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

And if you find one that's half decent I bet he had some plumbing under his belt (not that I've found one) 
Also they are completely unaware of the day to day common practices that are allowed like when the height of the rpz can not be met (here on an rpz the engineer can fail job even before the building dept can inspect even when the building dept would have passed it)


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

If an engineer was so great there would never be change orders..

Lots of plumber contractors make their better living from change orders.


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## Hoozycoozy (Apr 26, 2011)

Were doing a res home, that has an engineer and a builder!! It is for a family with a really sick kid.. Water is being ran in some type of dupont Teflon tubing, we had to get a special exception from the state as it is not approved by our code for residential use.. Anyway the engineer has overseen projects in this stuff before, one of the plumbers on the job had some questions about it, and the engineer ignored him and just walked away... So he goes to the builder and asks him to get him (the engineer) to go over the project with him and the builder says "Well, he is an engineer, so I doubt you'll understand what he says"... 

Yep, because all plumbers are just dumb, I guess.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Will said:


> That's where people get engineers and architects confused. Engineers don't just do stuff that looks good on paper. There stuff is tested in a lab either by them or aanother engineer and they use proven formulas that are true. If anything an engineer is conservative and "over engineers there stuff." Architects will take formulas to the limit and design pretty crap. We need engineers, engineers are what kept the Japan earthquake from destroying more than it did, were as in Haiti every build collapsed and the destruction was worst.



Engineers are the folks who put I-beams smack dab where you need to run a 3" waste line -- But sufficiently oversize the I-beam so you can burn a few 3-5/8" holes through it if you need to.

Architects are the folks who place a ped lav in front of a knee height window (so the HO can enjoy his 2 story bird feeder) without any thought as to how the ped lav is going to be secured -- Engineers are the folks who humor the Architect by designing a Lucite framing member/backsplash to secure the ped lav.

That was 20 years ago and I still tease that Architect about that whenever I see him.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

That's true.... On every job there is a beam covering a chase without fail.
Another good one is putting wall mounted wc on a block wall with no chase, or a 4" chase.
Then trying to explain why it doesn't work.... they stink' but they are good for change order


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't know how engineering certification works up there, but down here it IS differentiated. A mechanical engineer can't do structural design and vice versa.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Protech said:


> I don't know how engineering certification works up there, but down here it IS differentiated. A mechanical engineer can't do structural design and vice versa.


Same here, whats your point?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

That is my point.



NYC Plumber said:


> The whole system system is messed up, there is no way these people should be calling the shots.
> Most of them are bookworms with no practical experience at all...
> If they want to be plumbing engineers they should work in the field for at least 3 years.
> *PE's should also have to be specialized, how would it make sense that the guy designing structural beams also can make a plumbing decision??
> ...


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Protech said:


> That is my point.


I thought you smart, your letting me down now.
PE stands for professional engineer, a PE has a license and passed a test.
They can stamp any drawing they want.
A mechancial engineer is someone who has a degree but has to work for a PE.
A structral engineer is someone who has a degree but has to work for a PE.
Can you follow this?


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

NYC Plumber said:


> I thought you smart, your letting me down now.
> PE stands for professional engineer, a PE has a license and passed a test.
> They can stamp any drawing they want.
> A mechancial engineer is someone who has a degree but has to work for a PE.
> ...


I should add that there are many different types od engineers, i dont want to confuse you.
Same rules apply though.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Yes, and there are different types of PE's. Civil, mechanical, structural. 

You cannot have a PE who does mechanical stamp wind load prints for instance.



NYC Plumber said:


> I thought you smart, your letting me down now.
> PE stands for professional engineer, a PE has a license and passed a test.
> They can stamp any drawing they want.
> A mechancial engineer is someone who has a degree but has to work for a PE.
> ...


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Protech said:


> Yes, and there are different types of PE's. Civil, mechanical, structural.



No im sorry you are wrong. One test, one license. I dont agree, but it is true one test, one PE license.
There are whats called mep firms here, they do it all. Except for structuralthats usally seperate. But if they wanted to legally they can stamp eachothers drawings.
I know you are really reaching here, but i will give outhe benefit of the doubt and say its different whever you come from.
There is a surveying license if thats what you meant lol.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I have called several mechanical firms in the last year on solar systems. They would not/could not stamp my wind loads. I was told I had to get a structural engineer.



NYC Plumber said:


> No im sorry you are wrong. One test, one license. I dont agree, but it is true one test, one PE license.
> There are whats called mep firms here, they do it all. Except for structuralthats usally seperate. But if they wanted to legally they can stamp eachothers drawings.
> I know you are really reaching here, but i will give outhe benefit of the doubt and say its different whever you come from.
> There is a surveying license if thats what you meant lol.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Protech said:


> I have called several mechanical firms in the last year on solar systems. They would not/could not stamp my wind loads. I was told I had to get a structural engineer.


They didn't want the responsibilty, you stamp its your resposibility. Come on man..... Being a contractor you should know about responsibility right?
If they wanted to stamp though, legally they could.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

It was a good try, if you werent arrogant we could avoided this whole thing.
Can i go to bed yet i have work tomorrow.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I suppose that's possible. They acted as though they were not allowed to do so though. I have never looked up the law in detail, but when several PE's give me the same story, I have to assume what they are saying is true.



NYC Plumber said:


> They didn't want the responsibilty, you stamp its your resposibility. Come on man..... Being a contractor you should know about responsibility right?
> If they wanted to stamp though, legally they could.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Sorry, but you are wrong. At least in Florida. I'm not looking up NY as I'm unfamiliar with their statutes reference system. I will assume they are the same as the rest as the nation.



471.007 Board of Professional Engineers.—There is created in the department the Board of
Professional Engineers. The board shall consist of 11 members, nine of whom shall be licensed engineers
and two of whom shall be laypersons who are not and have never been engineers or members of any
closely related profession or occupation. Of the members who are licensed engineers, three shall be
civil engineers, one shall be a structural engineer, one shall be either an electrical or electronic
engineer, one shall be a mechanical engineer, one shall be an industrial engineer, one shall be an
engineering educator, and one shall be from any discipline of engineering other than civil engineering.
Members shall be appointed by the Governor for terms of 4 years each.

*
F.S. 471.025 (3) No licensee shall affix or permit to be affixed his or her seal, name, or digital signature to any
plan, specification, drawing, final bid document, or other document that depicts work which he or she is
not licensed to perform or which is beyond his or her profession or specialty therein.*


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Looks like the fat lady just sang... :laughing:


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Redwood said:


> Looks like the fat lady just sang... :laughing:


I dont think its the same in new york. Its one test, so i dont know how they would seperate. Maybe they have to choose a practice i don't know, nor do i really care. The fact that protech had to pull up an old thread, stay up late researching, just to try and prove me wrong on something, shows what kind of person he is. He probably never had many friends, prob got beat up and bullied as a kid, and uses this forum to prove to everyone that he is brilliant and can never be wrong. Kind of sad if you ask me.
The fact that you followed with your comment is comical. Your proabably a simmialr person because you watched closely to see if he pull out some code citing.

If i was wrong, i was wrong, big effing deal. thread was about engineer incompetenece which i still feel the same about.


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