# Lav rough-ins



## Miguel

What're you residential plumbers using lately for RI dimensions on lavs? It wasn't all that long ago that 20-22" above finished floor was pretty good for the waste and 24" worked great for water. On wall hung and vanities alike it just seemed to always work out well. Even pedestals weren't bad as long as you knew at the RI stage what to expect come trim-out.

In the '90's some people started going with the weird vanities which required a little more accuracy and planning. Vessel lavs were always a problem to the plumbers and the cabinet guys alike, but some cussing and cursing betwixt the two and it could be made to work.

But NOW it seems that I just can't win! I've had numerous designers e-mail me specs on the latest and greatest, wierdass lavatory setup only to find that come fixturing day they've changed out to something completely unexpected.

Are we working to a standard these days or is it all in the wind?

Just curious to know if everyone is dealing with these pains, and how are you dealing with it.

cheers,
Mig


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## plumberkc

I have always set mine 18" off the finished floor. I feel your pain, anything custom or high end can change on you. 

One of my recent jobs the homeowner's father was building them a custom vanity as a present. It was a really nice vanity but they did not regard the discussion that we had about leaving enough room for the p-trap. They were pretty pissed off when I cut a hole in the bottom of their vanity to make room for the trap. :yes:


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## Tommy plumber

18" for waste arm. I'll run my hot line at 23" and cold line at 19", then stub the water lines out at 21". At those heights, I don't have to jump lines over other lines. Those measurements are standard. High-end fancy foo foo designer stuff might be different.


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## Abel Plumber

I do 18" on the rough. Alot of customers love those damn "furniture" vanities. All of the specs. are always in metric n it never ends up the way you want it. I just started a rough where all of the vanities are 36" high so im stubbing out at 24".


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## Michaelcookplum

Always set at 20-21 unless it's noted during rough-in. Never that big of a dealto make it work regardless. If stub our is too low, you can always st90 up into a tee with a studder vent on top for secondary vent.

There are always options besides hacking a cabinet whether you would normally use studder vent or not. Last resort is to jigsaw out a spot for the trap. 

Bottom line it's never been that big of a deal for me to think tres about it...though I have thought twice, and this is my conclusion. 

Good luck


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## OldSchool

Lavs at 18" on drain and 21" on water

Kitchen 16" on drain

laundry tub 16" on drain


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## Widdershins

I never rough in a lav with custom cabinetry until I've seen the shop drawings, architects elevations or I have a cut sheet in hand.

I've been burned too many times in the past.


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## seanny deep

42" to top of washerbox
18" to center of drain lavtory 21" 8" spacing on water supply
6" x 6" off center to the left water closests
15" to kitchen sink 18" for water supply 
12" for laundry tub 
42" to center of shower divertor 
Thats how iv been taught anyways some times custom stuff can be interesting like kohler cast iron service sink with cast ptrap that kind of ****e when it hits you unexpected can be a pain thanks seanny


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## Widdershins

seanny deep said:


> 42" to top of washerbox
> 18" to center of drain lavtory 21" 8" spacing on water supply
> 6" x 6" off center to the left water closests
> 15" to kitchen sink 18" for water supply
> 12" for laundry tub
> 42" to center of shower divertor
> Thats how iv been taught anyways some times custom stuff can be interesting like kohler cast iron service sink with cast ptrap that kind of ****e when it hits you unexpected can be a pain thanks seanny


There are a few 1 piece water closets out there that require 8" left of center. 6" will run right into the back of a few of the TOTO's I've set over the years.


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## plumberkc

Widdershins said:


> I never rough in a lav with custom cabinetry until I've seen the shop drawings, architects elevations or I have a cut sheet in hand.
> 
> I've been burned too many times in the past.


Drawings :blink: WTF are drawings.


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## Piper34

18"waste22"waters on lavatories lower waste kit. ,laund. Sink wastes but no matter how much you try they always get draws on wrong side or that cover one water. I gave up trying the furniture vanities are always a nightmare as are open vessel sinks .it seems so few try to get good drawings .on occasion you get good stuff but it just seems GCs&HO value their time and money with very little concern for ours .chargeing extra for small shiot like that sounds good but rarely happens


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## Miguel

'preciate the input, guys. At least I know I'm keeping with current standards.
Hard to believe after some of the curveballs thrown my way lately! 

Btw, seanny deep: nice set o' specs there! Live by them but not so much that you can't be flexible. When a cabinet with an 8" kickspace gets thrown into your 12" laundry tray (it'll happen, trust me ) you won't have room for the p-trap. _"Oh, we decided to go with this Italian laundry sink, undermount on a marble top and here's the German faucets we'd like you to install.... OH, and you just love the cherrywood cabinets from Irzbeckastan!"_ :blink:


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## Widdershins

Miguel said:


> 'preciate the input, guys. At least I know I'm keeping with current standards.
> Hard to believe after some of the curveballs thrown my way lately!
> 
> Btw, seanny deep: nice set o' specs there! Live by them but not so much that you can't be flexible. When a cabinet with an 8" kickspace gets thrown into your 12" laundry tray (it'll happen, trust me ) you won't have room for the p-trap. _"Oh, we decided to go with this Italian laundry sink, undermount on a marble top and here's the German faucets we'd like you to install.... OH, and you just love the cherrywood cabinets from Irzbeckastan!"_ :blink:


With fixture manufacturers throwing out the 'Standards' book these days, it pays to take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with what is going in and how the manufacturer recommends it be roughed-in.

All of my guys have tablets now and can pull up a .pdf cut-sheet for the fixture out in the field off of the internet or they can have the showroom e-mail them a copy out in the field.


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## Richard Hilliard

I set lavatories at 19 kitchens are 17 off the floor.


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## Tim`s Plumbing

*18" above finish floor*



plumberkc said:


> I have always set mine 18" off the finished floor. I feel your pain, anything custom or high end can change on you.
> 
> One of my recent jobs the homeowner's father was building them a custom vanity as a present. It was a really nice vanity but they did not regard the discussion that we had about leaving enough room for the p-trap. They were pretty pissed off when I cut a hole in the bottom of their vanity to make room for the trap. :yes:


 
I set drains for vanities at 21" at 18" you need to use a tail piece extenstion. Tail piece extenstion lets say $ 1.99 x how ever many you hook up in a year sounds like a waste of money to me.


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## Widdershins

Tim`s Plumbing said:


> I set drains for vanities at 21" at 18" you need to use a tail piece extenstion. Tail piece extenstion lets say $ 1.99 x how ever many you hook up in a year sounds like a waste of money to me.


Until you meet that one lavatory where they opted for the sink deep enough to drown a cat.

I believe in covering my bases.


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## hroark2112

Widdershins said:


> Until you meet that one lavatory where they opted for the sink deep enough to drown a cat.
> 
> I believe in covering my bases.


I've run into at least 3 lately. With the current trend of granite countertops and deep sinks, I'll take the extra 3" just in case.


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## Tim`s Plumbing

*deep sinks*



hroark2112 said:


> I've run into at least 3 lately. With the current trend of granite countertops and deep sinks, I'll take the extra 3" just in case.


 
That is why it is always good to know what they are planning on before you do the rough. I had done a job where niether the GC or the home owner bothered to tell me that they had a in wall faucet for the lav. I was looking through the list af fixtures that they where supplying and found it before dry wall was done.


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## Widdershins

Tim`s Plumbing said:


> That is why it is always good to know what they are planning on before you do the rough. I had done a job where niether the GC or the home owner bothered to tell me that they had a in wall faucet for the lav. I was looking through the list af fixtures that they where supplying and found it before dry wall was done.


Unless they change things midstream, looking through the fixture list and roughing-in accordingly is your job.


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## Widdershins

plumberkc said:


> Drawings :blink: WTF are drawings.


Sometimes you need to beat them up for information.

I held off roughing-in a freestanding tub for almost five weeks because nobody would tell me what I was roughing in for.

Good thing I did. 

I managed to get in the right blocking for the tub and the floor mount tub filler just a few hours before they poured the floor.

Doing it after the Gypcrete was poured would have been a disaster.


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## mccmech

Miguel said:


> What're you residential plumbers using lately for RI dimensions on lavs? It wasn't all that long ago that 20-22" above finished floor was pretty good for the waste and 24" worked great for water. On wall hung and vanities alike it just seemed to always work out well. Even pedestals weren't bad as long as you knew at the RI stage what to expect come trim-out.
> 
> In the '90's some people started going with the weird vanities which required a little more accuracy and planning. Vessel lavs were always a problem to the plumbers and the cabinet guys alike, but some cussing and cursing betwixt the two and it could be made to work.
> 
> But NOW it seems that I just can't win! I've had numerous designers e-mail me specs on the latest and greatest, wierdass lavatory setup only to find that come fixturing day they've changed out to something completely unexpected.
> 
> Are we working to a standard these days or is it all in the wind?
> 
> Just curious to know if everyone is dealing with these pains, and how are you dealing with it.
> 
> cheers,
> Mig


Always do 18 1/2" from floor for vanities, 21" for pedestal ( that's for drains). I make it a point, however, of getting specs for vanities from h.o. or g.c.. That way I have documentation for my rough-in. Any alterations become an extra.


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## mccmech

OldSchool said:


> Lavs at 18" on drain and 21" on water
> 
> Kitchen 16" on drain
> 
> laundry tub 16" on drain


You really do 16" on k/s drain? I'm actually finding that, due to granite tops with deep bowl undermount sinks, oh, & don't forget the garbage disposal, I have to stub out at like 13 1/2. That's if I don't want to flip the trap around & have water sitting in the g/d rotting it away.


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## Abel Plumber

Same here. Ive been doing my k/s at 13". I had to do one a few months ago at 11" because the h.o. was buying a country sink.


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## Miguel

Again I'd like to express my appreciation for the input, guys. This is GOOD!

If I can remember how to post pics, here's a selection from one potential disaster that was averted. (Not the ones I was looking for but they're in my archives and I'll post 'em when I find 'em.


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## PLUMB TIME

Looks like the vessel and vanity were an afterthought. Originally a pedestal rough?

Just wait till the old boy gets up from the throne and snags his right hip and arm one to many times. That can't be 15".:laughing:

P.S. looks good though


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## frisco kid

plumberkc said:


> One of my recent jobs the homeowner's father was building them a custom vanity as a present. It was a really nice vanity but they did not regard the discussion that we had about leaving enough room for the p-trap. They were pretty pissed off when I cut a hole in the bottom of their vanity to make room for the trap. :yes:


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## mccmech

Miguel said:


> Again I'd like to express my appreciation for the input, guys. This is GOOD!
> 
> If I can remember how to post pics, here's a selection from one potential disaster that was averted. (Not the ones I was looking for but they're in my archives and I'll post 'em when I find 'em.


Pretty Vessel Bowl set-up. The one nice thing about those drains is that ya don't have to worry about a pop-up assembly. It's just like a grid-strainer where you can cut the tailpiece reaeeaaallyy tight if ya have to to make the trap tie in.


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## MikeS

mccmech said:


> You really do 16" on k/s drain? I'm actually finding that, due to granite tops with deep bowl undermount sinks, oh, & don't forget the garbage disposal, I have to stub out at like 13 1/2. That's if I don't want to flip the trap around & have water sitting in the g/d rotting it away.


 same here. Right around 13" is pretty much standard in my neck of the woods.


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## bizzybeeplumbin

I have always roughed kitchens in between 13-14", lavs 19".

When I was doing a ton of custom bathroom remodels in Los Angeles, the fanccy furniture vanities were the worst, some had a 4" x 4" box to rough everything in on because the way the drawers would close. Plus add the legs, its a nightmare. I remember checking 30 times, then pulling the gc to the master and going through with him so we were all on the same page. A lot depends on his tile and flooring guy also, when you have a 4" box and they double float the floor and instead of 1" of tile and mortar turns to 21/2" for some reason the plumber is always to blame.


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## Miguel

PLUMB TIME said:


> Looks like the vessel and vanity were an afterthought. Originally a pedestal rough?


Exactly! You nailed it, Plumb Time!
Not the best example as I have some pretty poor examples (the one I was looking for was a complete "roll-your-eyes" nightmare to make it work. I have it archived somewhere but it was so lame I musta hid it pretty good. lol)



> P.S. looks good though


Hey, thanks. When I got the news from the cabinet guy that the HO had changed out the ped to a vanity with a bank of drawers I just told him to go ahead and I'd deal with it when I got there. It actually worked out not so bad but when we found the vessel lav onsite he was cursing a blue streak since he makes cabinets to accomodate them. The flood rim is like 40" on that lav but the people are tall and they seemed to like it the way it turned out. <shrug>

_P.S. - Have a brand new Toto Supreme w/ 8" centre for sale cheap. Comes with faucets! _


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## Miguel

Here's am example that burns my britches. Not really residential but same concept:
I'd gone through great pains to get this set just right, but no, they decide that they'd like to set it up differently, about 3-1/2" over from each lav. Why? I dunno. They were using the same prints that I was. Aw, what's a few inches either way matter?








It'll all line up. Won't it?


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## Adamche

Sheesh a bugger with the chrome work! Question... Why are the H & C offset from each other? Ours are traditionally level


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## Miguel

Adamche said:


> Sheesh a bugger with the chrome work! Question... Why are the H & C offset from each other? Ours are traditionally level


It's L copper in the walls w/ 4 lavs back to back. Just thought I'd save some time and money. The hots are 5/8" higher than the colds. Didn't think it'd be sucha big deal but you're the 2nd plumber to bring that to my attention. :whistling2:


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## plbgbiz

I don't know why you guys fret so much over rough in measurements. After all, they are called "ROUGH" for a reason. :laughing:

Just use one of my patented Water Works Flexi Traps...problem solved.:yes:


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## GREENPLUM

Do you hafta use trap & supply protectors?


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## mccmech

Miguel said:


> It's L copper in the walls w/ 4 lavs back to back. Just thought I'd save some time and money. The hots are 5/8" higher than the colds. Didn't think it'd be sucha big deal but you're the 2nd plumber to bring that to my attention. :whistling2:


Some of the stuff that's out there on commercial work will make ya re-consider, 5/8" difference under a counter-top is not such a big deal. After you add the ADA valve guards noone will really notice a height difference anyway.


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## NYC Plumber

Miguel said:


> It's L copper in the walls w/ 4 lavs back to back. Just thought I'd save some time and money. The hots are 5/8" higher than the colds. Didn't think it'd be sucha big deal but you're the 2nd plumber to bring that to my attention. :whistling2:


Actually looks like the hot is 11/16" higher....just sayin...


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## billy_awesome

Miguel said:


> It's L copper in the walls w/ 4 lavs back to back. Just thought I'd save some time and money. The hots are 5/8" higher than the colds. Didn't think it'd be sucha big deal but you're the 2nd plumber to bring that to my attention. :whistling2:


That's how I do all of mine too, saves a crap load of time and material.

Sometimes when you have basins back to back I install hot and cold mirrored. If you know what I'm talking about. So your hot and cold will be backwards on one side. Makes things cheaper and easier, especially when you have 2 x 4's to work with.

I'm sure I'll get hell for saying this, as long as your not and idiot and you remember on the finish to cross the lines with your braided supplies your good to go!


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## NYC Plumber

billy_awesome said:


> That's how I do all of mine too, saves a crap load of time and material.
> 
> Sometimes when you have basins back to back I install hot and cold mirrored. If you know what I'm talking about. So your hot and cold will be backwards on one side. Makes things cheaper and easier, especially when you have 2 x 4's to work with.
> 
> I'm sure I'll get hell for saying this, as long as your not and idiot and you remember on the finish to cross the lines with your braided supplies your good to go!


Wow your actually proud of that huh?
You know thats illegal right billy not so awesome?
Take a hike.


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## Tommy plumber

NYC Plumber said:


> Wow your actually proud of that huh?
> *You know thats illegal* right billy not so awesome?
> Take a hike.


 




Correct, I do believe I have read in my code book that cold is supposed to be on the right and hot on the left. Exceptions being W/C water pipe stub-out, etc. 

Billy Awesome, don't be lazy, do it the right way. Tell your canadian journeyman that Tommy plumber wants him to teach you the correct way, not the lazy trailer-park way......:laughing:


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## NYC Plumber

Tommy plumber said:


> Correct, I do believe I have read in my code book that cold is supposed to be on the right and hot on the left. Exceptions being W/C water pipe stub-out, etc.
> 
> Billy Awesome, don't be lazy, do it the right way. Tell your canadian journeyman that Tommy plumber wants him to teach you the correct way, not the lazy trailer-park way......:laughing:


Lol i agree!


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## billy_awesome

Have my code book right here.

On all facets hot must be on left, cold on right.

Our code does not specify what side stub out lines are on.

I know I'm just an apprentice and 95% of you guys have more experience than me, but I don't think this is a trailer trash way of doing things. You are eliminating over twice the copper fittings, saving time and reducing the chance of leaking in the future.

Very rarely do we get braided supplies that look good after they are installed to the tap, that's why I like to rough mine in at 24" or higher so when your ADA counter top sits at 32" high, you won't see any plumbing besides your trap under the sink. Is it really the end of the world if under the sink the lines cross? I wouldn't call it my best work in my life, but sometimes circumstances are different on the job, like this time I was working with block layers that didn't speak any English and would cover up any plumbing if I turned my back for 5 minutes.

I really don't think it's polite to tell me to take a hike either, have some respect for your fellow tradesman, even if you think I'm an idiot.


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## seanny deep

Maybe You should try using red and bleu wirsbo that would look less tacky then valves hidden behind the sink with hot and cold installed on the wrong side. Thats usually my first sign a homeowner or hack "not calling you one" did the install. When i did light commercial grocery stores and condos ect. That was my pet. Peave no one gave a shiit, barbers loops with drains on the vent side cause everyone was roghed in different and hot and colds crossed even on home run systems dont ask me how flanges cored to close to walls ect ect.. if i were an apprentice again id be the guy giving the journeyman **** for stuff like that dont the. Supply lines interfere with the pop up when the stop is that high?


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## billy_awesome

seanny deep said:


> Maybe You should try using red and bleu wirsbo that would look less tacky then valves hidden behind the sink with hot and cold installed on the wrong side. Thats usually my first sign a homeowner or hack "not calling you one" did the install. When i did light commercial grocery stores and condos ect. That was my pet. Peave no one gave a shiit, barbers loops with drains on the vent side cause everyone was roghed in different and hot and colds crossed even on home run systems dont ask me how flanges cored to close to walls ect ect.. if i were an apprentice again id be the guy giving the journeyman **** for stuff like that dont the. Supply lines interfere with the pop up when the stop is that high?



I would say 75% of the work we do is commercial, so no pop-ups, just grid style.

Can't use any pex on some jobs either, as much as I want to. Even though it's permitted in non combustible material buildings, our engineer thinks that stuff is 'crap' and wont have it in buildings they design. Whatever it's his design we're just the tradesmen, right?


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## seanny deep

When im doing copper work i always put cold on the bottom and hot on top for two reasons one do it the same every time and you cant get it crossed. Two cold on the bottom usually works so you dont have to cross lines, another thing i always do is make the ball valve open with flow do it consistently how ever you decide to do it and it simplifys things down the road. I worked for a guy who got mad at me for the valve thing he always said put the handle so if it falls it closes the valve instead od opening if it was closed. Makes sense for gas but i thought it was stupid for water a valve isnt going to fall closed with 50 or more psi behind it. Good luck with the apprenticeship just dont teach yourself other guys bad habits. Last but not least why are the block layers covering your pipes as you lay them.. your engeneer doesnt believe in testing your drainage or water supply. "thats a code requirement. Drainage must be capable of passing static water test. Ball test, smoke test and or air test of 4:5psi. Water must be capable of withstanding pressure equal or higher then incoming water pressure. Here they want 200psi or manufactures reccomendations.


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## billy_awesome

seanny deep said:


> When im doing copper work i always put cold on the bottom and hot on top for two reasons one do it the same every time and you cant get it crossed. Two cold on the bottom usually works so you dont have to cross lines, another thing i always do is make the ball valve open with flow do it consistently how ever you decide to do it and it simplifys things down the road. I worked for a guy who got mad at me for the valve thing he always said put the handle so if it falls it closes the valve instead od opening if it was closed. Makes sense for gas but i thought it was stupid for water a valve isnt going to fall closed with 50 or more psi behind it. Good luck with the apprenticeship just dont teach yourself other guys bad habits. Last but not least why are the block layers covering your pipes as you lay them.. your engeneer doesnt believe in testing your drainage or water supply. "thats a code requirement. Drainage must be capable of passing static water test. Ball test, smoke test and or air test of 4:5psi. Water must be capable of withstanding pressure equal or higher then incoming water pressure. Here they want 200psi or manufactures reccomendations.



Cold on the bottom +1!
Also makes it easier to tie in your toilets!

With certain block layers (we all know them) they are old and crusty and will sometimes build a wall with or without your pipes in them already. After a block layer layed 8 courses I told him we had urinals going in the wall. Let's just say they are happy guys to work around once they have to redo work!


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## NYC Plumber

billy_awesome said:


> Have my code book right here.
> 
> On all facets hot must be on left, cold on right.
> 
> Our code does not specify what side stub out lines are on.
> 
> I know I'm just an apprentice and 95% of you guys have more experience than me, but I don't think this is a trailer trash way of doing things. You are eliminating over twice the copper fittings, saving time and reducing the chance of leaking in the future.
> 
> Very rarely do we get braided supplies that look good after they are installed to the tap, that's why I like to rough mine in at 24" or higher so when your ADA counter top sits at 32" high, you won't see any plumbing besides your trap under the sink. Is it really the end of the world if under the sink the lines cross? I wouldn't call it my best work in my life, but sometimes circumstances are different on the job, like this time I was working with block layers that didn't speak any English and would cover up any plumbing if I turned my back for 5 minutes.
> 
> I really don't think it's polite to tell me to take a hike either, have some respect for your fellow tradesman, even if you think I'm an idiot.


i was out of line and i apologize. Please don't take a hike...


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## Miguel

billy_awesome said:


> That's how I do all of mine too, saves a crap load of time and material.
> 
> Sometimes when you have basins back to back I install hot and cold mirrored. If you know what I'm talking about. So your hot and cold will be backwards on one side. Makes things cheaper and easier, especially when you have 2 x 4's to work with.
> 
> I'm sure I'll get hell for saying this, as long as your not and idiot and you remember on the finish to cross the lines with your braided supplies your good to go!


*meh* I'd hafta draw the line there with a big, fat crayon. I don't even like doing back-2-back showers that way even though it's allowable on certain types. :no:
And on a lav or sink setup it saves no time anyway.

GP and others: Yeah, there'll be PVC jacketed foam covers on the waste and water under each basin anyway, so... there ya go. Glad I used the 16 ga CHROME p-traps!!! 
And yeah, the one cold was out a 16th! Musta been the drywallers. :whistling2:


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## Miguel

How cool is this! We've got a thread waxing on commercial in the residential plumbing forum and I'm the thread starter! I love it! lol

Had to double-post here, too since I've been away a few days and there's some good banter going on here.

seanny deep: I use the same method for running H&C although sometimes it's impractical to use that arrangement all the time. I've told my apprentice and helpers that the hot is _usually_ on top or, if side by side near an outside wall it'll be the furthest from outdoors. If there's ever a case where it's unclear then the hot will be marked with a band of electrical tape. I use this method on PEX or copper, especially when I have to stub down into a lower floor or crawlspace from above. I try to locate a marking band on the hot about an inch or so from where it's protruding (usually the floor decking) below. Helps minimize confusion especially when the guy stubbing thru isn't the same guy tying it into the mains.

As far as valving arrangement goes, I prefer to have the handle of a ball valve point in the direction of flow, but again this isn't always practical. I prefer to have the handle "fall" in the closed position when on a horizontal run, but if having the handle point in the direction of flow when opened means that the handle will be on the opposite side of where you would likely be when you go to operate that valve (either for servicing or emergency shutoff situations) I'd rather have the handle front and centre and in the face of the possibly panicked individual that wants to stop the water.


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## RW Plumbing

I'm all for doing everything you can to insure the best quality installation. Things like crossing the supply lines Don't effect the quality of the product at all. They don't even look much worse than having them straight on if you're using braided supplies. And with hard pipe they look good if you bend them nicely. Something hidden like that doesn't matter. Most customers wouldn't even notice they're crossed unless you told them. Besides, on a back to back installation it eliminates several joints in the wall which IMO is much more important.

Its similiar to running a stack exposed. If it's visable, I take the time to make it straight. The same stack in a chase and it isn't as important. Sometimes it's about using as little joints as possible as the joint is the most likely place for a leak.


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