# Long Plastic Supplies on Faucets



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Have you noticed some faucet manufacturers have much longer plastic supplies on their faucets?

There is a reason for it. I'll provide the answer if no one gets it.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Have you noticed some faucet manufacturers have much longer plastic supplies on their faucets?
> 
> Delta told me 3 years ago that it was long as to allow a loop in the line to discourage cutting the lines to fit.
> 
> ...


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I do not know why they are doing it however it needs to be re-addressed. This year we have had 1 plastic line and 2 stainless lines that were looped by plumbers that rubbed the lines raw and flooded 3 units. 1 Delta.1 Kohler, have no idea on the 3rd one as it came from a cabinet manufacturer from Canada as a set. (cabinet, top and faucet). I asked each customer for the receipts so that I could get the replacement faucets for free due to the supplies being part of the faucet, instead of separate.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Have you noticed some faucet manufacturers have much longer plastic supplies on their faucets?
> 
> There is a reason for it. I'll provide the answer if no one gets it.


 It could just be the market/niche that I'm in, but I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Which manufacturers and models are they?


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

I will give you guys a hint . . . it's a compliance issue.


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

It's to make them lead free.
My thought, the supplies seem very long, very close, if not to being against code


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Very good Plumb Nutz, if you cut them or modify them, the faucet would no longer comply with the Lead Free Law.

Consumer feels all warm and fuzzy, no lead in drinking water. Manufacturers support that with their marketing and advertising. 

Plumber comes in and makes sensible modifications to fit his/her application and the faucet no longer meets standards. :furious: When I read about this, it just furthers in my mind why consumers don't trust plumbers. In the above scenario, the average plumber knows NOTHING about this and it would be an honest mistake.

Why can't manufacturers just comply with the law, instead of trying to find a loophole to exploit? (No pun intended).

It's a dirty little secret . . . just like greenwashing.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Very good Plumb Nutz, if you cut them or modify them, the faucet would no longer comply with the Lead Free Law.
> 
> Consumer feels all warm and fuzzy, no lead in drinking water. Manufacturers support that with their marketing and advertising.
> 
> ...


Let me see if I understand PC... the long supply tubes increase the overall mass/volume of the faucet bringing the lead/volume ratio down... When the supplies are cut down, the ratio is no longer in compliance. Correct?


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

U666A said:


> Let me see if I understand PC... the long supply tubes increase the overall mass/volume of the faucet bringing the lead/volume ratio down... When the supplies are cut down, the ratio is no longer in compliance. Correct?


Absolutely correct. The law requires lead in products that supply drinking water will have to be less than .2% by 2014.

To calculate the overall lead content, the total surface area of the entire product is calculated. This includes the plastic supply tubes. The longer you make them, the smaller the lead percentage overall.

The brass in the product still has 12 times the concentration that the law allows, so in essence, the amount of lead in the water is still high. IMO, that makes the law meaningless. 

From what my research turned up, WB complies with the law by reducing the lead in their brass. Not by smoke and mirrors.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Wow... The lengths these manufacturers will go to to cheat the system... Incredible.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Exactly! The intent of the law is to reduce lead in the water . . . just because the faucet complies, DOES NOT mean it's okay. IMO, they violated the spirit of the law.

Even with a warning to plumbers to NOT cut the supplies, the lead concentration is still higher than it should be.

Lead in our drinking water would definitely explain the downward spiral our country has taken. Turned the majority of our citizens into sheep being lead to slaughter.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Thanks PlumbCrazy for the insight. 
So in theory I might install one of these faucets, cut the supply line for my particular application, a savvy inspector busts me for altering a low-lead faucet and essentially turning said faucet into a non-compliant fixture. Now as a licensed plumber, in the foregoing scenario, I look like a complete jackass in front of HO, standing there with my mouth open while the inspector fails a plumbing final. Then ofcourse the HO expects me to purchase and install another new faucet on my dime. 

It's brilliant, what will the college-educated engineers at the mfgs. think of next?...:furious:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

TommyPlumber - I can't see inspectors failing it, because most probably won't know about the issue of long supplies. The no-lead law has been in the making for quite sometime and it wasn't until I spent time really looking into it that I found this information. 

But I do agree with you 100%. If it did happen in front of a H.O., it would appear that you were trying to pull a fast one. H.O.'s looking to the professional plumber for advice assume that we are in-the-know. They have every right to expect the professional to know and we have every right to expect manufacturers to keep us in-the-know. :yes:


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

And the house this lead free faucet is going in probably has 50/50 solder everywhere.


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

Always confused me why so much attention was paid to lead yet no one really says anything about the prescription drug chemicals or the industrial chemicals that are in our drinking water that can't be filtered out. Think that bottle of tap water you bought on the store is really that safe?
Gotta nuke plant down the way a little bit. Though it doesn't directly hit our reservoir, somethings got to be in the ground water....?
Water is the greatest dissolver period. Gives life and can cut steel in half. Something that is that useful will break down everything eventually and that has to be carried somewhere.
Don't fear lead. Fear what the united cooperation of America ain't telling us....


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

The fix?


Turn your angle stops downwards out of the wall so the loops can remain, or shorten the lines coming out of the floor of the sink base whether kitchen or lavatory, use angle stops once again, that way you can easily get those lines to install. 

Out of all the Delta Faucets I have installed with this longer supply line, I'll never cut those lines because it's the probability issue that will throw a claim to its failure. 


Seems like Delta, or my customers have started going back to the brass shank design because I haven't put those long supply type ones in for awhile. 

Putting in more than just basic models, if that makes any difference.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> The fix?
> 
> 
> Turn your angle stops downwards out of the wall so the loops can remain, or shorten the lines coming out of the floor of the sink base whether kitchen or lavatory, use angle stops once again, that way you can easily get those lines to install.
> ...


 



What if they start making the faucets with 4' long supply lines?....:laughing:


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## KCplumber (Dec 31, 2009)

Tie them in, in the basement

Or under the the slab:laughing:

I asked a rep about the lenght of the supplys a while ago because a supply line from the valve can only be 24", he said it was part of the faucet so it could exceed the limits


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

KCplumber said:


> I asked a rep about the lenght of the supplys a while ago because a supply line from the valve can only be 24", he said it was part of the faucet so it could exceed the limits


Someone told me a while ago, that if Nathan catches someone trying to boost their post count illegitimately...

He will

Knock them

Back to

Zero

:laughing:

Don't worry... You'll join the ranks of the elite soon enough....


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## KCplumber (Dec 31, 2009)

Have him bring it, I'm a little chatty tonight - but i'll be 3 more years till I reach 500


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

KCplumber said:


> Have him bring it, I'm a little chatty tonight - but i'll be 3 more years till I reach 500


Then go to the chat room and leave my thread alone. You are mucking it up.


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## KCplumber (Dec 31, 2009)

I just want to get in the lounge with plumbcrazy 

Sorry


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

ROFLMAO - That was a good one. 

Seriously, we are in chat right now. :yes:


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Guess I need to read the paper work on the DST Deltas. While I get what's being said it seems odd they supply extra ferrils with the unit. An invitation to blow the liability huh?


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## nyckosova (Jan 23, 2011)

yeh delta faucets have 36'' inch plastic supplys


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*Delta faucets are junk*

Delta faucets have turned to absolute junk...
trying to comply with this stupid lead free law

this law is a total joke and should be outlawed
because the only people pushing for it is bankrupt california
.... 

at this time I have stopped installing the Delta kitchen
 and vanity faucets because they are so very crappy... 


our supply house has brought in a brand called *Oympia *which is basically 
solid brass and is copy cat of Delta back when they were made of brass.... 
all the working parts are basically delta.....they are pretty nice and remind me 
of the old DELEX line that Delta had way back in the 80s...



I guess when this law comes in to affect I think Olympia will probably attach 2 60 foot rolls of 3/8 wirsbo pex to their faucets and then put them under the kitchen sinks to be able to comply with the new lead laws....


anything to kiss californias ass...:laughing:.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Where does it say you will void the warranty if you cut the lines? All I see is don't cut them too short or over tighten.

page 4

http://www.deltafaucet.com/customersupport/documentation/592-DST.html?document=mi&documentIndex=0


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

It's not the warranty that gets voided...

Cut them shorter and the percentage of the waterway to the amount of lead changes and the faucet is no longer lead compliant... :blink:

You have to remember we have Lawyers Writing Laws...
That just makes weird loopholes that don't make any sense whatsoever end up in the laws.


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## plumbtastic (Apr 27, 2011)

Does cutting the supply lines short deliver water with more lead content? If it doesn't then I think the intent of the law is intact.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Well in a common sense application it would...

But when Lawyers write a lead law they do some silly things...

Like insert stupid thing like the total surface area of the waterway vs. the amount of lead that can leach into the water.

Then when you cut the supply the surface area of the waterway is reduced so the amount of lead leaching in is the same yet the ratio changes and the faucet is no longer in compliance because the amount of lead in relationship to the waterway surface area is too high....

Do you understand that? :blink:

If you had a law degree that would make perfect sense.


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## plumbtastic (Apr 27, 2011)

The lenght of the pex supply lines to not change the amount of lead in the water for the end user. It seems to me they are just using the law to their advantage during the manufacturing process. Good for them.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

plumbtastic said:


> The lenght of the pex supply lines to not change the amount of lead in the water for the end user. It seems to me they are just using the law to their advantage during the manufacturing process. Good for them.


You are correct, the length DOES NOT change the amount of lead in the drinking water. The consumer will believe that there is less lead in their drinking water with this new law and this is not necessarily so.


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## omahawinscott (Sep 11, 2011)

If American Standard is available in your area it could be worth looking into. They are using a low lead brass which meets all the regulations and continues to provide you with the 1/2" shanks down below.


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## c-note (Aug 12, 2011)

the knowledge you learn here is priceless.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

omahawinscott said:


> If American Standard is available in your area it could be worth looking into. They are using a low lead brass which meets all the regulations and continues to provide you with the 1/2" shanks down below.


Most American Standard recommendations start here>>> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Never mind. Apparently you are just here to sell stuff. Tread lightly my friend.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

I see NO problem with cutting to fit. Page four of the owners manual give instruction on cutting.
http://www.deltafaucet.com/customersupport/documentation/592-dst.html?document=mi&documentIndex=0


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## omahawinscott (Sep 11, 2011)

I truely apologize and agree it does look like I was making a pitch even though those were not my intentions. I will definately watch what I say in the future. On the delta supplies I know myself and several others in the area have notified our rep of the genuine concerns with the supplies from plumbers in the omaha area


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

The best thing about all of this lead free crap is most of the older homes around here still have lead services. How are we going to worry about the lead content in my brass fittings when we have the water travel through 60-80' of solid lead just to enter the home. :whistling2::whistling2:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> The best thing about all of this lead free crap is most of the older homes around here still have lead services. How are we going to worry about the lead content in my brass fittings when we have the water travel through 60-80' of solid lead just to enter the home. :whistling2::whistling2:


 




We discussed that very topic here in the past. Someone posted that a thin layer of mineral coating builds up on the inside of a lead water pipe effectively insulating the incoming water from contacting the lead and thereby not allowing any appreciable amount of lead to leach into the water. I can't speak firsthand about this since I don't come into contact with any lead water services. Occasionally I'll see a lead waste arm, but that is about it.


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## incarnatopnh (Feb 1, 2011)

You need to come here for lead. Lead services, even a wood water main now and then. Heck the water dept. is still packing lead around hydrant nozzle!


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> We discussed that very topic here in the past. Someone posted that a thin layer of mineral coating builds up on the inside of a lead water pipe effectively insulating the incoming water from contacting the lead and thereby not allowing any appreciable amount of lead to leach into the water. I can't speak firsthand about this since I don't come into contact with any lead water services. Occasionally I'll see a lead waste arm, but that is about it.


If this were true, wouldn't it do the same with the lead in the brass fittings?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> If this were true, wouldn't it do the same with the lead in the brass fittings?


 




I don't know, I just work here....:laughing:


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