# Side Work!!



## MDPlumber1977 (Mar 4, 2013)

I am figuring that these two words in a row will draw as much attention on this site as "Nude Girls" does from the highway. Knowing how opinionated people are about this subject I hope this does not turn into another hateful thread. The question is 2 part, very simple, and geared toward those of utter disapproval. How do most small companies get started? Is developing a customer base after hours while working for another company in an effort to start your own business stealing??


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

It's not stealing if your not taking customers and materials, tools, truck etc. Either your boss has to be cool with it or you need to be using your own stuff. What you do on your off time is your own business.

If I wouldn't have turned away side work for the last 15 years I might be out in my own today.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Side jobbing makes my blood boil like nothing else. It is now and always has been a cancer to our trade. Here is a bit from the past on this topic...

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f4/side-job-contracting-10043/
http://www.plumbingzone.com/f4/employee-phone-numbers-business-cards-24354/


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## SlowDrains (Mar 25, 2013)

I stopped doing side work along time ago. That being said I want to open my own company on my own time soon. I am planning on talking to my boss about it. I would refuse to work for his customers. I hope he is ok with it. I see no other way to do it and still be able to pay my bills


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## SlowDrains (Mar 25, 2013)

And yes I have my masters and bought insurance he already knows I bought insurance. He asked why do you need that I said incase I need to make extra money so I think he knows already


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Cultivating customers OUT of your employer's service area on your own time would be a great way to start.


As long as you already have ALL the required licenses, insurance, tools, vehicle, etc...

Otherwise, competing for the same customer base while being paid by him is pretty underhanded in my opinion.


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## SlowDrains (Mar 25, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> Cultivating customers OUT of your employer's service area on your own time would be a great way to start.
> 
> As long as you already have ALL the required licenses, insurance, tools, vehicle, etc...
> 
> Otherwise, competing for the same customer base while being paid by him is pretty underhanded in my opinion.


I agree the guys that are unlicensed, use the company truck, tools, material and tell people I can do this cheaper on the side are evil. As far as service area I'm sure it would overlap at sometime though we are in different counties


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

What you do on your time with your material is your business, but if I see your sticker plastered over my sticker on a service call that I just sent you out on last week,.....

...... you are fired ............ok??:blink:


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Side work is stealing. You're stealing from the company and co-workers. That money can go towards better insurance, retirement, 40 hours, overtime pay and increase company profits.You are ultimately stealing from yourself. If you're not making enough money at work learn to negotiate a better wage.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

SlowDrains said:


> I agree the guys that are unlicensed, use the company truck, tools, material and tell people I can do this cheaper on the side are evil. As far as service area I'm sure it would overlap at sometime though we are in different counties


Like my Master told me...

"If you want to work here, learn to be a better plumber, and learn the business of plumbing...I will pay you. If you want to open your own legitimate company, compete fairly for the customers in our city, and accept the risks that come with it..I will even help you with that. But I'll be gawd damned if I'm gonna do both."


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

When i worked for someone I did side work when ever I could. Never used the company truck even though I took it home with me. Never stole the bosses material ever. And I was always honest with him about what I was doing. He even stamped a few permits for me. I also did not work anywhere near his service area so he was totally cool with it. Also I never stole any customers from him. Still wont today and we both work in close proximity to each other. If it weren't for side work I would be living under a bridge somewhere never would have been able to buy a $400,000 house at 25 if I didn't do it then. I look back now and think man I was nuts working without insurance but it taught me to be very careful and detail oriented. Or maybe I was just lucky.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

You can't be hot and cold at the same time. Either respect your employer and not do side jobs, or respect your employer and stop working for him and go out on your own.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

theplumbinator said:


> When i worked for someone I did side work when ever I could. Never used the company truck even though I took it home with me. Never stole the bosses material ever. And I was always honest with him about what I was doing. He even stamped a few permits for me. I also did not work anywhere near his service area so he was totally cool with it. Also I never stole any customers from him. Still wont today and we both work in close proximity to each other. If it weren't for side work I would be living under a bridge somewhere never would have been able to buy a $400,000 house at 25 if I didn't do it then. I look back now and think man I was nuts working without insurance but it taught me to be very careful and detail oriented. Or maybe I was just lucky.


Your boss was an idiot. Living under a bridge on plumber wages in New Jersey? Bull.

I guess it is all good if you get away with it.


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## Pipe layer (Mar 10, 2013)

I have mixed feelings about it. Because it is how most of us got our start in business. For me I made the decision that I was going to go out on my own so I went to my boss at the time and told him of my intentions. I was working for a commercial outfit so really me doing residential side work wasn't an issue of stealing from my boss and as I said I did not try to hide anything from him. I only did it for a couple months (and I was Licensed and insured) before I got the testicular fortitude to make a go of it on my own. Within 2 months I had builders totaling up to about 175 houses a year and ended up referring all service work back to my old boss. So it actually worked out good for both of us. I would just say it needs to be done with the boss knowing and all proper license and insurance requirements.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> Your boss was an idiot. Living under a bridge on plumber wages in New Jersey? Bull.
> 
> I guess it is all good if you get away with it.


Ok maybe not under a bridge that was an exaggeration but I would have continued to rent. Also remember this was ten years ago the company I worked for had so much work they turned stuff away. Me putting in a faucet or re roughing a bathroom on a weekend was not hurting him. Maybe it was hurting another plumber. In retrospect I ***** about guys stealing work from me without licenses. So either im a hypocrite now or im getting back what I gave to other guys. I also should have waited to buy a house could have paid half what i did then. I see exactly where you are coming from and I totally understand your points. If I had it all to do over I would have done things different im sure. What i did was stupid and i definitely dont condone it. All I can do is chalk it up as a learning experience now. If i had gotten caught it would have ruined my career the state board would have thrown me out of the apprentice program and never issued me a license. I just played Russian roulette and somehow came through without a hole in the head.


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## CT18 (Sep 18, 2012)

What does everyone consider "side work". For family and friends or out trying to get work in town with flyers and such.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

SIDE JOB: adjective. 

1. The act of personally performing a plumbing task for an individual or company by an employee of a plumbing company and receive payment directly for such task without any involvement from the employer. Often this is closely associated with not reporting that income to the reigning tax authority.

Usage: John ran by the house of a friend from church on his way home from work to unstop their sewer so he could pick up a little extra cash.

2. Contracting for work without proper credentials. Assuming all liability risk with no protection of insurance or legal payment collections.

3. Illegally and illegitimately cultivating, establishing, and/or maintaining a customer base without actually being a business operator.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

CT18 said:


> What does everyone consider "side work". For family and friends or out trying to get work in town with flyers and such.


I am not a complete zealot on the issue.

I would expect a person with plumbing skills to assist a family member in need but that is a far cry from trying to establish or maintain a customer base.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Here's another one worth revieving...

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/stealing-work-12053/


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

If one of your guys is doing side work apparently you are not paying him enough exspecialy if he works 4o plus for you and then works 10 plus one the side


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## JWBII (Dec 23, 2012)

I think there's a line there revenge. Guys can make good money but live beyond their means which causes them to have the need to work extra. That's not the employer's fault. We all make decisions as to what wage is acceptable to us when we hire on with a company.


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## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

Used to be all over it in my younger days, hell, I even had an old boss that would throw jobs to me if he didn't want us to do it for whatever reason. 
I finally figured out that the reason people were trying to get things done on the side instead of paying a company is because they are usually cheap asses and no good to work with. 
I even had a couple GC's try to get me to do thier work on the side when i showed up working for the company. :furious:


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

bottom line, nobody went into business without doing side work first, unless they inherited the business, bought the business, or had money to survive until they had buisness. Im union, along with my father 4 uncles, and grandfather. so i know side work makes people mad. But everyone has to have work to start out, or tens of thousands in the bank until they build up there customer list.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

gardon said:


> bottom line, nobody went into business without doing side work first, unless they inherited the business, bought the business, or had money to survive until they had buisness. Im union, along with my father 4 uncles, and grandfather. so i know side work makes people mad. But everyone has to have work to start out, or tens of thousands in the bank until they build up there customer list.


You don't think most business owners didn't have a safety net before opening a business? I'd say pretty much all did, then they busted there tail off getting customers and equipment while they didn't pay them selfs.


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

Will said:


> You don't think most business owners didn't have a safety net before opening a business? I'd say pretty much all did, then they busted there tail off getting customers and equipment while they didn't pay them selfs.


Im in business, i know how i stocked up on tools, money, and a customer base (not the guy i worked for customers) I also Know how every other contractor around did it. (some inherited from family, some did side work to build a base, or had some money to have a lic plumber run their shop so they could get a contractors lic, and some stole their current employers customers. (which did you do?)


you don't just pull a add in the yellow pages and pray, until you go bankrupt, Sucking away every dime you stashed


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## goob (Dec 29, 2008)

i am waiting on the stories about what happened when you were drinking


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## SlowDrains (Mar 25, 2013)

My plan is to work till there is a set amount in the bank that the business generated on its own ( I won't say the amount on here as people will prob say I'm crazy) after I hit that goal I set for myself I will go full blown


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

goob said:


> i am waiting on the stories about what happened when you were drinking


LOL who's that directed to?


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## goob (Dec 29, 2008)

miss hearing the stories


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

rob i know thats you! LOL! just looked at your post's! still having probs at the hotel i see with pex rings!


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## goob (Dec 29, 2008)

not rob


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

goob said:


> not rob


Its Mark, i figured it out by age of your introduction, and you know my relatives, how you doing? (plus you know how to use a computer)


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

gardon said:


> bottom line, nobody went into business without doing side work first, unless they inherited the business, bought the business, or had money to survive until they had buisness. Im union, along with my father 4 uncles, and grandfather. so i know side work makes people mad. But everyone has to have work to start out, or tens of thousands in the bank until they build up there customer list.


I worked at my normal job and saved for several years without side work to start my own business. Started from scratch without a customer base. It has been a struggle and after two plus years its starting to come around. 
Business is not for the weak willed. Starting out with the feeling that stealing from your company is ok because you need the money for you business is flat out wrong. 
No matter what stage in your business life you are at ethics plays an important role.


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## goob (Dec 29, 2008)

retired jan 1st having a ball need to find a part time job for health insurance


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

HSI said:


> I worked at my normal job and saved for several years without side work to start my own business. Started from scratch without a customer base. It has been a struggle and after two plus years its starting to come around.
> Business is not for the weak willed. Starting out with the feeling that stealing from your company is ok because you need the money for you business is flat out wrong.
> No matter what stage in your business life you are at ethics plays an important role.



so from day one you had not one customer, and not one contact, but felt hey i can do it! I will quit my job today, and tomorrow i'm on my own! With no chance to make a penny, until the customers call me, who by the way do not know you exist!, because you don't do side work, and never have (Hope the phone book add comes out tomorrow, cant tell your current boss you pulled one). That sounds about right. So i will just buy multiple thousands of dollars worth of tools, a surety bond, and business insurance, and hope.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

How do restaurants, liquor stores, retail shops, nightclubs, and pawn shops get their start? Mention any other mom & pop startup and stealing clientele from your current employer while employed or running the business in off hours without licenses/permits is not even a consideration.

Why must this be the accepted norm in or trade? Because of laziness, ignorance, and a sense of entitlement.

No, it is not easy.
No, it isn't without risk.
No, you shouldn't expect your competitor to feed you while you fumble through it.

If you can't figure it out or get someone to teach you, then you have no business being in business.


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> How do restaurants, liquor stores, retail shops, nightclubs, and pawn shops get their start? Mention any other mom & pop startup and stealing clientele from your current employer while employed or running the business in off hours without licenses/permits is not even a consideration.
> 
> Why must this be the accepted norm in or trade? Because of laziness, ignorance, and a sense of entitlement.
> 
> ...


Let me tell you working your day job and then trying to pay bills, yet buy tools, trucks, insurance after hours, and everything else needed is not being lazy! Its how most people did it, you must be the magic guy where the business showed up on your doorstep when you went to get your paper in the morning. As for restaurants, pawn shops, etc... those ar store fronts, where the customer see's it and walks in the door in there neighborhood. Totally different thing, and most fail, and are there for a short time. Most of service work is from word of mouth, and from the customer knowing the work you do and they can trust you, unless your in a flooded market, and they have no choice. (thats not my market, it go's on skill and service here)


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

goob said:


> retired jan 1st having a ball need to find a part time job for health insurance


Im glad you got to retire, you deserve it!, sounds like your doing good then, and thats a good thing! Good to hear from you, funny meeting on here! Gary :thumbsup:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Nothing magic or blessed about it. But no shortcuts either. I'll be happy to share the sorted tale when I have more time to type.

This is an overview...

Beans & rice diet,
Desire,
Determination,
Networking,
Help from friends and family (jobs, not handouts).


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## SlowDrains (Mar 25, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> Nothing magic or blessed about it. But no shortcuts either. I'll be happy to share the sorted tale when I have more time to type.
> 
> This is an overview...
> 
> ...


My work will be coming from a retired family members customer list to start I just don't know if it will be enough to support me and my daughter to start with that's why I am hesitant to go all out. Also I've talked with many plumbers around here and that's how most of them started and about 4 different ones are giving me advice how to set it up legal and to avoid mistakes they made


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

I relocated to another state, never worked for another outfit in the new state, opened a business on day one with no customers. Didn't even know anyone here in the state(Oklahoma). It was slow going, I lost a lot of money, but I kept at it. Just now I'm starting to see my hard work paying off, 3 years later. 

There is ways to pick up jobs, with out lining up customers from moonlighting.


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

Will said:


> I relocated to another state, never worked for another outfit in the new state, opened a business on day one with no customers. Didn't even know anyone here in the state(Oklahoma). It was slow going, I lost a lot of money, but I kept at it. Just now I'm starting to see my hard work paying off, 3 years later.
> 
> There is ways to pick up jobs, with out lining up customers from moonlighting.


Ok how did you get customers? your wife worked and made a bunch of money to support you in the mean time? had thousands to draw off of with no work at all, phone book only comes out once a year, so doubt it was an add unless you planned a year ahead, and had a local number, Cold calling? windshield flyers? Door to door?, or you had thousands to drain off of until you got a call?


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

If there is a easy way i missed would love to know how to do it. (for real not being smart a$$)


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

I don't believe there is a easy way. Doesn't even get easy once established. I meet the right people along the way and word of mouth let others know about me. Honest plumbers are not the norm, neither are there many that do what they say they where going to do, or ones that actually do good work and don't cut corners. If you can provide that, word will spread pretty quick.


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

Will said:


> I relocated to another state, never worked for another outfit in the new state, opened a business on day one with no customers. Didn't even know anyone here in the state(Oklahoma). It was slow going, I lost a lot of money, but I kept at it. Just now I'm starting to see my hard work paying off, 3 years later.
> 
> There is ways to pick up jobs, with out lining up customers from moonlighting.


You misunderstood my question. You say you did not do side work and even harder relocated to new state. where did your work come from? it does not just appear, nobody knows you, and your in a new state. now if you say you placed a add and waited months plus word of mouth i get that, but thats burning through thousands until the phone rings once.


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

gardon said:


> so from day one you had not one customer, and not one contact, but felt hey i can do it! I will quit my job today, and tomorrow i'm on my own! With no chance to make a penny, until the customers call me, who by the way do not know you exist!, because you don't do side work, and never have (Hope the phone book add comes out tomorrow, cant tell your current boss you pulled one). That sounds about right. So i will just buy multiple thousands of dollars worth of tools, a surety bond, and business insurance, and hope.


That's pretty close to what I have done. I was actually out of work with a hand injury and had the time to get my licenses and all my other ducks in a roll. 
I am currently not doing a lot for advertising with the majority of work coming through word of mouth and repeat business. 
My commercial accounts have come through my residential customer and vise versa. 
Working hard now on adding HVAC service next summer. This will be another couple licenses, insurances, bonds etc. Again this will be done ethically or it won't happen. That is simply how I roll.


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

gardon said:


> You misunderstood my question. You say you did not do side work and even harder relocated to new state. where did your work come from? it does not just appear, nobody knows you, and your in a new state. now if you say you placed a add and waited months plus word of mouth i get that, but thats burning through thousands until the phone rings once.


My friend if your expecting to hang a shingle and they come running your sadly mistaken. Expect to advertise from your own mouth non stop. Talk to everyone you know and tell them to send anything your way. Do the same in church if you go. Sell your family car and buy a work vehicle. 
You can get a start with a couple grand in tools and work up from there. Have at least several months of your personal finances saved to get you by. Never never stop moving forward. 
Do not think you will survive or grow by undercutting everyone else. Quickest way to go out of business. 
Read about your business always. 
Learn how to talk and more importantly how to listen. 
Read the PZ everyday.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

gardon said:


> You misunderstood my question. You say you did not do side work and even harder relocated to new state. where did your work come from? it does not just appear, nobody knows you, and your in a new state. now if you say you placed a add and waited months plus word of mouth i get that, but thats burning through thousands until the phone rings once.


I did burn through thousands. But I consider it more if a investment or trial by fire learning experience. 

Would take a lot of writing to go through my whole experience. That's why I didn't go into much detail.


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

HSI said:


> My friend if your expecting to hang a shingle and they come running your sadly mistaken. Expect to advertise from your own mouth non stop. Talk to everyone you know and tell them to send anything your way. Do the same in church if you go. Sell your family car and buy a work vehicle.
> You can get a start with a couple grand in tools and work up from there. Have at least several months of your personal finances saved to get you by. Never never stop moving forward.
> Do not think you will survive or grow by undercutting everyone else. Quickest way to go out of business.
> Read about your business always.
> ...


LOL Again im in business, have a solid customer base, work trucks, all tools, do not advertise at all yet, but dont need to, because of word of mouth, repeat customers. This whole post was to do with sidework, and almost every contractor out there got started with side work, or inherited a business, or was rich in the first place and had time to build a customer base. You are few in rare if you got a customer base fast enough to survive, in a new state, with no contacts, no advertising, in my opinion. Again i asked how you did it, word of mouth is not possible, if you just move there, knew no one, did not advertise. You cannot get referrals from someone that you never worked for. (so im asking how did you find your first jobs in your new state?)


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Who even uses the phone book anymore? Old people? The demographic you want to work for my friend is going to us a search engine to find you waste money on a phone book add is a fools errend. If you do want a phone provider add even after what I just told you definitely do a mobile listing dont waste your money on the paper version. I dont have either anymore I stopped paying for my website too. My phone rings every day word of mouth and referrals from oil companies to do burner service. for free! Once im in their house I get everything, plumbing heating and air if they have it. When I started out 3-4 years ago I spent tons of money on advertising and it didn't get me much more than price shoppers. Networking works for me. You need charisma and confidence. A crapload of friends helps also. Do good work, leave the place cleaner than I was when you got there, be polite, sociable but not too sociable. Drop clothes and shoe booties. Keep your overhead as low as possible, don't try and get too big too quick, dont buy things with money you dont have in hand yet, keep your supply houses paid, insurance paid, and most important keep your taxes paid!


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

theplumbinator said:


> Who even uses the phone book anymore? Old people? The demographic you want to work for my friend is going to us a search engine to find you waste money on a phone book add is a fools errend. If you do want a phone provider add even after what I just told you definitely do a mobile listing dont waste your money on the paper version. I dont have either anymore I stopped paying for my website too. My phone rings every day word of mouth and referrals from oil companies to do burner service. for free! Once im in their house I get everything, plumbing heating and air if they have it. When I started out 3-4 years ago I spent tons of money on advertising and it didn't get me much more than price shoppers. Networking works for me. You need charisma and confidence. A crapload of friends helps also. Do good work, leave the place cleaner than I was when you got there, be polite, sociable but not too sociable. Drop clothes and shoe booties. Keep your overhead as low as possible, don't try and get too big too quick, dont buy things with money you dont have in hand yet, keep your supply houses paid, insurance paid, and most important keep your taxes paid![/QUOT
> 
> Thanks when you say use a search engine, from net i take it, how do i set that up exactly?


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

I know this will be a little hard to understand by those with strong opinions about side work, but.

Anyone who is trying to start their own business/ trying to make more money needs to have one overriding concern, their family. 

Employers have you working for one reason, having you work is in their best interest. You make money for them. If having you work there is no longer in their best interest you will be gone. I am sure most bosses will agree with this. 

These same employers would not care if you were collecting cans on the weekends, or selling homemade bird nests for extra cash. 

Everyone has a responsibility to their own best interests above the interests of their employer/employee. 

If you feel it is in your/your families best interest to work and find your own customers, then that is what you should do. You are not in it to be approved of by your boss or other owners.


That being said: 
If you are offering a lower price at jobs you boss sends you to, or handing out cards at jobs that called your boss because they saw an ad or have dealt with that company before. YOU are stealing. 
If you are working without the require lic,bond,and insurance. YOU are a hack. 

And lastly, if your Boss has a no side work policy and fires you because he caught you don't cry you knew the risks.

just my .02


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Make a website. And your going to have to pay some money to get your listings to pop up on Google, Bing, Yahoo. All the popular ones that would be money well spent. But honestly testimonials from people mouth to mouth is awesome! It just takes some time for that to happen. Set up a Facebook page too. Make sure everyone you know has knowledge of how to contact you and is aware your starting your own company. I have friends that do a little of everything my one buddy is a manager at sleepys he sells beds to hundreds of people every month he is a salesman so obviously he makes small talk they mention their plumber jus raped them and they ate looking for someone else or their remodeling thats y they are looking for new furniture boom he gives them my card. Other friends that work in offices that have 200 other people there ive got my friends trained to hand out my card when they're in the break room and someone is crying about their broken shower. Its that easy. Just takes time. You have to be patient. And answer your phone no voicemail. Also be Johnny on the spot when you say your gonna be there. If your going to be ten min Late and u know this an hour before the call, call them and let them know. Your customers will love you and find the work for you. But you Must stay organized you cant slip up. Your their to service them not the other way around.


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

DesertOkie said:


> I know this will be a little hard to understand by those with strong opinions about side work, but.
> 
> Anyone who is trying to start their own business/ trying to make more money needs to have one overriding concern, their family.
> 
> ...


This is a great post! and i agree with all of it, and is great advice! Stealing customers from your current employer is wrong in every way, esp if your handing out cards or low balling them. Side work to start a business so your not punching a clock for the rest of your life for you and your family, which is customers your company would never know or get i feel is your deal. If your boss finds out your doing side jobs and fire's you so be it, and you probably deserved it. But I will not sit by until my days are gone, when i could work towards a better future for myself and my family. I don't want to punch the clock, i want to own it! At this time i do!


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

theplumbinator said:


> Make a website. And your going to have to pay some money to get your listings to pop up on Google, Bing, Yahoo. All the popular ones that would be money well spent. But honestly testimonials from people mouth to mouth is awesome! It just takes some time for that to happen. Set up a Facebook page too. Make sure everyone you know has knowledge of how to contact you and is aware your starting your own company. I have friends that do a little of everything my one buddy is a manager at sleepys he sells beds to hundreds of people every month he is a salesman so obviously he makes small talk they mention their plumber jus raped them and they ate looking for someone else or their remodeling thats y they are looking for new furniture boom he gives them my card. Other friends that work in offices that have 200 other people there ive got my friends trained to hand out my card when they're in the break room and someone is crying about their broken shower. Its that easy. Just takes time. You have to be patient. And answer your phone no voicemail. Also be Johnny on the spot when you say your gonna be there. If your going to be ten min Late and u know this an hour before the call, call them and let them know. Your customers will love you and find the work for you. But you Must stay organized you cant slip up. Your their to service them not the other way around.



Thanks! great help, i appreciate it!!:thumbsup:


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

Those that say they needed sidework. That's total BS! I too saved up money and bought what I needed and then quit my regular job I had. At no time di I do any side work at all. I wanted nothing to do with plumbing when I was off. That was my time and not anyone else. I had 0 customers when I started and did all the work myself. I got one job and then the next and the next and soon people saw my van out and about and I got calls. I also did warranty work for every water heater company to get my name out. 

How many of you feel that had to have sidework. had a guy working for you doing the same thing? I bet most of you would squeal like a stuck pig and cry they are stealing from you. But you felt its ok to do it to your employer. Sorry but if you cant save your money and collect your tools and then go out on your own. You are not that great of a business owner. My rules for my company...side work will get you fired on the spot and yes I have fired people on the spot. Now its just me and my sons and I know they aren't doing sidework as they know what they will inherit when I get tired of it.


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## germanplumber (Sep 13, 2011)

Don't forget that if you do side jobs your stealing from the local unions B.M. and B.A. salary by not paying into your union dues sorry to say but its a big joke and I believe you should be able to do all the side jobs you want as long as your not stealing any of YOUR employers customers.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

germanplumber said:


> Don't forget that if you do side jobs your stealing from the local unions B.M. and B.A. salary by not paying into your union dues sorry to say but its a big joke and I believe you should be able to do all the side jobs you want as long as your not stealing any of YOUR employers customers.


Again im not going to say I didn't do it myself, and im some kind of Angel. I even had my employers blessing.But believe me when I tell all the young guys not to make the mistakes I did. Not worth it if you get busted. By either the code enforcement official, or your boss.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

What's side work. Is that like putting siding on a house ?? Or side walks?? Lmao. I work enough at work the last thing I want is more work after work. Hell it took the wife threading to call a plumber to fix the tub shoe on our master bath tub to get me to fix it after hours. I said if you do call a plumber call the number on the side of my truck and request me. That way il get paid to fix it. I'd stick it to her with the bill and mark up the parts 50%. Lmao. That would have been freakin funny as hell. Then come home and say. This plumber charged you what ??? Wtf. I'm not paying that !!!!!! Lol. Really. If ur not my blood relative don't ask and it ain't free unless ur mom or grandma !!!!!!


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

So I guess I'm the only plumber in the entire world that the plumbing company I worked for screwed me over on paychecks, hours, wrecked schedules and played favoritism to others.

Or get hired being promised I'd be in a service division in 3 months, not a year later.



And I guess I'm the only one who got stuck with a worker's comp bill the company I worked for, 3 years after I'm gone, had to pay. 


Is that what this thread is about? All bosses can do no wrong?


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## piper1 (Dec 16, 2011)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> What's side work. Is that like putting siding on a house ?? Or side walks?? Lmao. I work enough at work the last thing I want is more work after work. Hell it took the wife threading to call a plumber to fix the tub shoe on our master bath tub to get me to fix it after hours. I said if you do call a plumber call the number on the side of my truck and request me. That way il get paid to fix it. I'd stick it to her with the bill and mark up the parts 50%. Lmao. That would have been freakin funny as hell. Then come home and say. This plumber charged you what ??? Wtf. I'm not paying that !!!!!! Lol. Really. If ur not my blood relative don't ask and it ain't free unless ur mom or grandma !!!!!!


:laughing::laughing::laughing: you brought a tear to my eye.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Well I'm a joker after three beer a Ritas at Texas road house 
Lol


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## piper1 (Dec 16, 2011)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Well I'm a joker after three beer a Ritas at Texas road house
> Lol


i'd would drink with you anytime.


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## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

I'm just filing my incorporation papers for my own company this week. And keeping my day job. 
And letting my boss know. 
And being congratulated by him.

My day job is all commercial; tower condo's, factories, military, maintenance contracts, etc

My own outfit will be residential and a select few commercial clients, some of whom I'd been serving going back 18+ years. I won't be soliciting new commercial, but if some happens along & tempts me I'll clear it through the day job powers-that-be. They're picky on clientele and are expensive, so not all clients want them...

Running your own business brings lots of new challenges, and improves a person who must overcome them and learn many new things. This will improve me at my day job, but I'll have to be careful to never tire myself out to where I'll be less productive for them. 

There will be those who have a fundamental stance and disagree with me on some aspect or the whole thing in general, but to them I respond : I don't work for you, and even when I work for others, I'm ultimately working for myself.

I have my own vehicle and inventory, have ordered my own uniforms with my own custom logo. I've ordered shirts in sizes other than my own for days when I'm getting help. Three of those shirts and an embroidered coat will fit my old man, who is a retired plumber/ business owner/ commercial landlord. 

Being moral about it is possible, and I'll be trying my best to keep it that way. I also won't be working myself to death; I'll serve my already established clients, and perhaps advertise on the occasions I wish to have a bit more work on something like Kijiji where ads can be turned off when desired.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> So I guess I'm the only plumber in the entire world that the plumbing company I worked for screwed me over on paychecks, hours, wrecked schedules and played favoritism to others.
> 
> Or get hired being promised I'd be in a service division in 3 months, not a year later.
> 
> ...


If the guy screws you revenge by stealing his customers or his material doesn't make it justifiable. Call the labor board thats why they exist.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

piper1 said:


> i'd would drink with you anytime.


Well come on over to txs. Or the next time I go to Clearwater beech il call u up. 

My buddy grew up in Melbourne fl. 
I went to see him and family ther 
We watched the sun come up over the beach in Melbourne then drove 1 1/2 hours to Tampa to see his brother and watched the sun go down over the beach (Clearwater) while we ate crab legs and drank cold beer 

For a Texas boy to see the sun rise and set on the ocean all in one day was freaking cool as hell 

Only in fl could you do that !!!

In txs a 1 1/2 hour drive is just a few county's over... It sure aint a drive from the Atlantic coast to the gulf coast 

Il never forget that day !!!!!


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

theplumbinator said:


> If the guy screws you revenge by stealing his customers or his material doesn't make it justifiable. Call the labor board thats why they exist.


 

If you do wrong, wrong comes your way. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. I give it the way you send it. I'm fair till someone screws me, and then I'm the enemy within. I treat a great deal of all people good and never steal of them. 

To think a boss has some leverage over me is where mistakes in business are taught by your employees, not employers. I've handed out some very important lessons over my times, especially ones that didn't pay their wages/bills.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Since were quoting the bible... what about " turn the other cheek". The guy doesn't pay you or messes with your check one phone call to the correct department usually clears that up. That lesson isn't yours to teach. Your tax money pays a salary of someone who has authority over your boss to uphold the labor laws. Think of them as child protective services of your paycheck. Make sure you quit too the dude will be paying your unemployment while you find work and he is being raped by a state agency wondering why he thinks its ok not to pay his employees. Much better revenge. Better lesson taught. Not only that but since your getting religious quoting scripture you should understand its not your job to judge the guy he will get his when he stands b4 God one day.


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## MDPlumber1977 (Mar 4, 2013)

MDPlumber1977 said:


> I am figuring that these two words in a row will draw as much attention on this site as "Nude Girls" does from the highway. Knowing how opinionated people are about this subject I hope this does not turn into another hateful thread. The question is 2 part, very simple, and geared toward those of utter disapproval. How do most small companies get started? Is developing a customer base after hours while working for another company in an effort to start your own business stealing??


Yep, I kinda figured this would be a hot button issue. I guess everyone has an opinion on the subject. I have not done "side work" in years but when i did, it was with full approval and professional courtesy between my boss and I. I always carried a license and insurance and worked with my own truck, tools and materials. It was done under an actual company name and out of the general service area of my daytime employer. I functioned as an LLC and worked nights and weekends to save enough money to truly get the ball rolling. I worked with cash accounts @ all the local supply houses so I was able to stay out of heavy debt. Again, this was all with the blessing of my daytime boss. I had eventually reached the crossroad where I had gotten too busy to carry this venture as a side business and had to make a choice. It was about this time that my day employer had began to have some issues and needed help. I can already hear the naysayers, "Maybe if you hadn't been stealing work your employer wouldn't have run into problems." I assure you that this was not the case and the issues were based on a bad bid that cost the Co. big $$$. Without a second thought I closed up shop and jumped in the ring. After a year of long hours and commitment, things were back on the right track and everything was back in black. This is what one man will do for another, or to put it a different way, an employee will do for an employer, when all sides support each other in their goals. I know plenty of owners who treat their guys like they are just labor and purely expendable. Had my boss treated me like that in my personal en devours then I would have never had his back when he needed it most. On another note, I see so many point out that a 40 or 40 + week should provide for all ones needs and if it doesn't they either need a raise or should cut back and live more responsibly. I would agree with this if the problem was based on a $550.00 Lexus payment and an over the top mortgage. I am all for people being responsible with their money but unless your life is completely predictable, one thing will always hold true. "**** Happens". Even the most responsible people cannot prepare themselves for all the situations life throws down the line. When given the choice to take out a loan to pay for unforeseen expenses or moonlight for extra $$$ to stay out of debt, I would be right back in the bosses office letting him know my intent, followed by a trip to the surrounding counties to re-activate my Masters licences. As a husband and father, I made the choice years ago to always provide for the ones I love. This is the blessing and burden that keeps me "In the trenches" from sun up to sun down. If I need "side work" to help me keep my family in good graces, then I do it with a smile.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

gardon said:


> bottom line, nobody went into business without doing side work first, unless they inherited the business, bought the business, or had money to survive until they had buisness. Im union, along with my father 4 uncles, and grandfather. so i know side work makes people mad. But everyone has to have work to start out, or tens of thousands in the bank until they build up there customer list.


We sold our home and relocated to start the business. Everything we had ever worked for was on the line. It was what we lived off of for the first few years.

We worked our a$$e$ off to get it up and running . . . it wasn't done on anyone else's dime. We had four kids to feed, so failure wasn't an option. 

IMO, those who choose to compete behind an employer's back to develop a customer base before taking the leap, don't have what it takes to run a profitable business. Business is risk - - - riding the fence, waiting for the right time, demonstrates an aversion to risk. 

If you have a passion to succeed, you can find a way without stepping on others to do it. You know what they say about karma?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

gardon said:


> Let me tell you working your day job and then trying to pay bills, yet buy tools, trucks, insurance after hours, and everything else needed is not being lazy! Its how most people did it, you must be the magic guy where the business showed up on your doorstep when you went to get your paper in the morning. As for restaurants, pawn shops, etc... those ar store fronts, where the customer see's it and walks in the door in there neighborhood. Totally different thing, and most fail, and are there for a short time. Most of service work is from word of mouth, and from the customer knowing the work you do and they can trust you, unless your in a flooded market, and they have no choice. (thats not my market, it go's on skill and service here)


Okay you want a road map spelled out...here it is.

From the first day I started my apprenticeship, it was with a view to owing and operating a plumbing business. I was not gifted, flooded by my market, performing magic, a customer thief, experiencing dumb luck, or any other label that uninformed onlookers throw around. It was a calculated endeavor based on years of planning. The one thing it was not was a desperate move because I didn't like my job. That is the most common reason plumbers hang a shingle and it is the dumbest reason as well. If I had a dollar for every time I have heard some idiot say, "my boss won't pay me enough" or "I hate my job"...."so I'm going out on my own" I could have already retired.

I spent every waking hour learning my trade skills and learning the trade skills of being a business operator. I took every opportunity to ask questions of my JP and my Master. Being around me was like being with a toddler that only new one word..."WHY?". I attended every free SBA seminar available along with any other seminars I found out about. I tested and earned my Plumbing Contractor's license, applied for a TIN, got a separate phone line, bought 250 business cards at Kinkos, and bought a minimal liability policy. Then and ONLY THEN did I try to get a customer.

During that time MizBiz was in poor health, bills were crazy, and I worked 8-5 at the plumbing company and 11p-7a at a motel. Every extra penny (literally saving pennies) went toward only the most needed tools via garage ales, pawn shops, and flea markets. 

Side jobs? No freakin' way!!! That is an unethical and illegal shortcut that I refused to have hanging over my head and conscience for the rest of my life.

Next step? Get a customer.

I networked. Every face I came in contact with became immediately aware that I was a licensed Plumbing Contractor and preparing to open my own business. Very soon I met a guy doing HVAC replacements in a nearby town that my employer was not licensed in. The homes were all owned by the same person, old, and all needed repipes. I quit my night job and started doing the repipes at night and n the weekends. This was done out of the only vehicle we had...a 1980 Chevy Caprice 2-door with a Landau roof that my dad gave me so I would not have to walk to the grocery store. Back seat full of tools, the trunk full of materials, and a 16' extension ladder bungee strapped to the roof. Then I picked up a few other jobs from the neighbors. This went on for a couple of months and then the day came...

My networking went a little too good. My network communication made it back to my employer. He called me in the office and showed me one of my own cards.  that's when I got the "poop or get off the pot" speech. He fired me on the spot since he knew full well what my intent was. I went home, emptied my tools out of his truck, brought it back to him with a bottle of Chivas, and thanked him for the job and all the things he tried to teach me. 

I then went straight to Kinkos in my Caprice. I had some flyers printed up on neon colored paper and headed home. MizBiz and I spent that evening rolling them up with rubber bands and filling large trash bags. The next morning a 7am I was on the street attaching them to every door in my neighborhood. After I ran out of flyers I went to every restaurant within a few miles of our home. Introduced myself to the manager and explained the benefit of having their emergency service provider right in the neighborhood. I made appointments to meet with the employers my parents worked for. They both became customers immediately.

From that day forward I had a job or two every day somewhere close by. Mostly residential but because of the networking, within one month I was also working for McDonalds, A&W, Red Lobster, Taco Bell, and a few other mom/pop diners.

Did I have help? You bet, and lots of it. But did I build it off of side work? NO! :furious: So again, it is not easy and requires not just hard work but an unbelievable level of commitment.

This is why I have such disdain for side jobs and those that do them. It is a lazy shortcut taken by people that lack the intestinal fortitude, knowledge, and strength of character to start their venture in an ethical manner.


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## SlowDrains (Mar 25, 2013)

Biz it sounds like you started out the same way I plan to you just didn't tell your boss about your networking and got caught. I have no customers right now but I do have all tools , licenses and insurance. My next step is to get business cards to hand out and start contacting customers from a family members list. I was planning on informing boss of my intentions


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> Okay you want a road map spelled out...here it is.
> 
> From the first day I started my apprenticeship, it was with a view to owing and operating a plumbing business. I was not gifted, flooded by my market, performing magic, a customer thief, experiencing dumb luck, or any other label that uninformed onlookers throw around. It was a calculated endeavor based on years of planning. The one thing it was not was a desperate move because I didn't like my job. That is the most common reason plumbers hang a shingle and it is the dumbest reason as well. If I had a dollar for every time I have heard some idiot say, "my boss won't pay me enough" or "I hate my job"...."so I'm going out on my own" I could have already retired.
> 
> ...



Sooooo you did sidejobs legally? And then got caught, so opened your own shop. But everyone else who does the same is a chicken sh!t punk that won't get off the pot?

Am I missing something or was your post another April 1st thing?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

DesertOkie said:


> Sooooo you did sidejobs legally? And then got caught, so opened your own shop. But everyone else who does the same is a chicken sh!t punk that won't get off the pot?
> 
> Am I missing something or was your post another April 1st thing?


Apparently you missed everything.

Fully licensed, fully insured, and not competing in my employers market does not equal a side job. If you do not see the difference between the two all hope is lost.

I did not become a competitor in my employer's market area until I was out of his company.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> Apparently you missed everything.
> 
> Fully licensed, fully insured, and not competing in my employers market does not equal a side job. If you do not see the difference between the two all hope is lost.
> 
> I did not become a competitor in my employer's market area until I was out of his company.



I believe some of the ones you jump on for sidejobbing are doing the same as you did. That is what I am doing also. 

If they are not doing it legally then I agree with you.


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## suzie (Sep 1, 2010)

Will said:


> You don't think most business owners didn't have a safety net before opening a business? I'd say pretty much all did, then they busted there tail off getting customers and equipment while they didn't pay them selfs.


Contrary to some, it can be done. I didn't inherit a business and I didn't step out on my former employer performing side jobs. I did however grab the bull by the horns and started my own company.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

DesertOkie said:


> I believe some of the ones you jump on for sidejobbing are doing the same as you did. That is what I am doing also.
> 
> If they are not doing it legally then I agree with you.


If they are legal, insured, and not competing in the same market with their current employer I have no problem with it at all. That is not sidejobbing.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> If they are legal, insured, and not competing in the same market with their current employer I have no problem with it at all. That is not sidejobbing.



Your Boss thought it was.:laughing:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

DesertOkie said:


> Your Boss thought it was.:laughing:


There is a huge difference between illegal sidejobbing and working in a conflict of interest. It is a line I wouldn't cross and I feel as strong about it today as I ever have.


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

well the side work i was speaking of, was actually hvac, as i learned this from my father. WHich i worked while being a union plumber and used to buy my truck,tools, and customers, contacts. Im union now and was back then, yet even though i was not working plumbing, which i was union for, i still say this was side work, at night, on weekends. Call it how you want to, but a business does not just show up with thoughts and dreams, the next day. (you had to do something, to make it happen which contradicted your current job) and don't:jester: say stealing customers from your boss, thats not it. Its still side work if its not your day job.


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

Meaning i stole no customer as i was a commercial plumber, and was doing residential hvac to jump start my business. now im doing both and am a contractor. I took nothing, only made what i have, and its all ethical


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

Maybe a new post should be started.... either 1. i do side work so i can fulfill my dreams, making my future come to me. (not stealing customers), or 2. i do side work stealing my companys customers, because i'm unethical ... and want extra money


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## john433 (Mar 20, 2013)

I got out of side work about 5 years ago when times were good but I do all commercial service and boss does not care if we do side work in his truck as long as we put gas in it . I am starting to get back I to it because it is slow right now in our union but mostly friends and family . If times get worse I will jump In with both feet and open my own .


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## suzie (Sep 1, 2010)

Here is a perfect scenario about side jobs and why it is wrong. I started a remodel last Friday. The homeowner called me and said the tile company has an employee that knows you and here is his name. Now in guest bathroom 1 a tub/ shower has been converted to a shower only requiring a shower pan. Even though the pan falls under my plumbing permit and licensure the tile guys install the pan. 
I found out the tile guys who have business cards and website are both moonlighting. Meaning by day they are both working for a union tile shop and trying to go out on their own working evenings and weekends. 

This is very precarious for me remember they are really not REAL company. Should I inform the homeowner or the plumbing inspector to ask the tile company in question if they are registered with the state and carry insurance, or should I turn the other cheek? 

One of the tile guys works for my partners company which is the largest tile company here and perform work nationwide. He gets paid well. I know this for fact. He had also been to our home for parties. 

It is not right nor is it ethical in my opinion. That's why doing business has a $ amount we have to pass along to client. Either take a crap or get off the pot.


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

Instead of turning a cheek, lift both of them off the pot, do your job and forget about it, they did the shower pan you did not, get paid for what you did and guarantee it, note on your invoice what you did, and did not do, and don't guarantee anything you did not.


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## cydejob (Feb 19, 2012)

wow. There are a lot of insecure business owners out there. There is plenty of work out there for everyone. Why let it bother you. Like it was mentioned before most of you do not want the kind of customers looking for a deal or looking for a cash job. So let the hacks and handymen struggle and learn the hard way how business is run. It also teaches the customers a lesson when something goes wrong or the red tape comes out.

I'm glad I was brought up in the trade by a bunch of side jobbers. I gained double the experience working all day and then working all evening as an apprentice. It also taught me how to NOT run a business seeing guys get brought up on charges in the hall and having the hammer come down on them in court. Without running a business on the side there is no way I would have been able to feed my family waiting my turn in line at the hall. I was a first gen plumber with no connections in the hall. I would wait up to 2 years to land a job. All of my work came from self promotion. I would never bite the hand that fed me. I was upfront with all my employers (since I would roll up in a fully stocked van to the job sites). They would always throw me their scraps and I was grateful. After 8 years of busting my ass I finally made a decent business for myself. Now I am the one tossing them the jobs I don't want to do.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

piper1 said:


> i'd would drink with you anytime.


Same here!!


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

No one has to justify to another if no laws are being broken. Like someone above posted, a customer wanting to hire a side-jobber is not one I would want anyway. 

The side-jobber and h.o. are both taking a risk.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

It is a fact of life....my son does side work....I did side work....one boss I had knew I did side work, another hated it....I dont really like it anymore. I understand the owners who are strongly against it more than I understand my reasons for not caring that much.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

cydejob said:


> wow. There are a lot of insecure business owners out there. There is plenty of work out there for everyone. Why let it bother you...


No insecurity on my part. I have fostered several of my own employees into their own businesses. I also actively work with several other plumbing business operators within my immediate service area to help them improve their business. 

Unlicensed/uninsured plumbers that moonlight for unreported income only serve to weaken the trade, put themselves at risk, and put their customers at risk. I am most eager to assist an aspiring LEGITIMATE business operator to have a successful enterprise...even if it is within my own service area. I believe raising the business quality of other plumbers helps all plumbing businesses, including my own. 

If someone wants to parade themselves as a Plumbing Contractor then they need to acquire the proper licensing, proper insurance, not play both ends of the game by competing for the same customer base as their existing employer, AND report all income to the IRS. Basically, grow a pair and get in the game legitimately. But sniping jobs from outside the rules that legitimate operators adhere to will NEVER be okay with me.

The laws are there for a reason. An unlicensed/uninsured sidejobber might as well just knock off liquor stores on the weekend to supplement his income. After all, a man's got to support his family, right?


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## JWBII (Dec 23, 2012)

Wow....... I agree with a lot of what's said here but I'm gonna bite my tongue on some of the comments made.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Im gonna knock off a liquor store this weekend. If the cops catch me im gonna tell em its "side work" lol...jk


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

As long as the owners who are so against it on a legal high road of moral right arent guilty of doing a job without a permit etc. then I can respect the opinion..or hide money for tax purposes or any other indiscretion...


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

theplumbinator said:


> Im gonna knock off a liquor store this weekend. If the cops catch me im gonna tell em its "side work" lol...jk


Is it still a business write off??


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

stillaround said:


> As long as the owners who are so against it on a legal high road of moral right arent guilty of doing a job without a permit etc. then I can respect the opinion..or hide money for tax purposes or any other indiscretion...


Yes every penny has been reported to the IRS from day one!

Permit on every job? Guilty as charged. But does that mean everyone with a speeding ticket must not only turn a blind eye to drunk drivers but give the a beer for the road (buying permits for unlicensed/uninsured sidejobbers)?

No one walking the Earth is an infallible saint. We have all crossed somebody's line somewhere and may well do it again. Unlicensed/uninsured/tax-free side jobbing is a line I won't cross nor will I ever be bashful about my opinion on the matter. It speaks to the rotten core and weak foundation that many startups have. 

To start a successful plumbing you must steal from your employer, contract without a license, endanger someone's home with no insurance, and commit the federal crime of tax evasion. Otherwise it cannot be done. I will scream bullshiot on that every day of the week! I know three members of the PZ in my service area that did it the right way and compete honorably in my market. Was it or is it easy for them? Absolutely not but still very doable. If an aspiring business operator can't figure it out, then they are not ready to make the step.

Don't try to tell me it has to be underhanded or it won't work. Not even Mr. Hilliard is that good of a salesman.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I started in Chicago...its a big place...a side job there is like a drop in lake Michigan...where I am now it is more serious but Im talking specifically of doing them for needed income and not to start up a biz. I still dont think it reaches gihad level but to each his own on this. Its not stealing....not by the definition of the word or the spirit of the law....I went thru the 80s recession in Chicago, was out of work, didnt take unemployment and my wife landed me a guy who managed 23 buildings.....I made more money out of work than working.....the boss that had to lay me off pulled a permit for me on a remodel I did......this stealing pure and simple reaction is pure self righteous bull crap.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

stillaround said:


> I started in Chicago...its a big place...a side job there is like a drop in lake Michigan...where I am now it is more serious but Im talking specifically of doing them for needed income and not to start up a biz. I still dont think it reaches gihad level but to each his own on this. Its not stealing....not by the definition of the word or the spirit of the law....I went thru the 80s recession in Chicago, was out of work, didnt take unemployment and my wife landed me a guy who managed 23 buildings.....I made more money out of work than working.....the boss that had to lay me off pulled a permit for me on a remodel I did......this stealing pure and simple reaction is pure self righteous bull crap.



I will say that anyone directly talking/bidding to a customer when the contact is made through your employer is stealing. 

Perhaps our definitions are what we are arguing about.

I do have one question for Biz, did any of your customers follow you when you left your employer?


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Why can’t those who do side work bring those customers into the fold of the company? Your company should give those jobs to you. The best thing is their still your customer and you assume no risks. If and when you plan to go on your own they will follow you.

When we made the decision to start a plumbing company I quit the plumber and went to work for a hardware store to help build clientele. Once my time for my plumbing business equaled the hours I put in the hardware store I quit that job and went full time into plumbing.

Yep there is enough work out there for everyone however the problem occurs when a plumber tries to steal his original company’s clients. You are not just affecting the owner you affect everyone in the company. When you take 25% of the company’s clients you create and cause and effect with the other employees losing work, time (Raises), and benefits. Create your own work outside of the company no problem at all. It would be so easy for me to start up as I bring in 2-3 jobs a day for the other guys in the shop. Don’t steal from your co-workers.

Granted I look at my job differently than many look at their job. That does not have to be the case. The difference is that it takes an attitude and confidence. Sit down with your owner and have a discussion /conversation. Don’t fear your job. By that I mean you can never be afraid that you may lose your job. Lay it out, how you can help the company, what you must do to build your value with the company and then deliver on your promises.

Not making enough money. Tell me why you deserve more money. Too many idiots come in and say I want a raise I ask why and they cannot tell me what they have done and why they should have the raise. I show up every day and I have been here a long time is not a good enough reason fellows. What do you do to increase your job security? Keep my customers happy? C’mon guys need more than that.

 I am sure we’ve all been fired before, hell I was fired once when I jumped out of the truck and decked the owners brother, one and done my message was loud and clear. I have never been without a job for more than an hour. Another time I was fired due to a manager that lied to the owner, no big deal. I’ve quit a few jobs too. It is not that big of a deal.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> Yes every penny has been reported to the IRS from day one!
> 
> Permit on every job? Guilty as charged. But does that mean everyone with a speeding ticket must not only turn a blind eye to drunk drivers but give the a beer for the road (buying permits for unlicensed/uninsured sidejobbers)?
> 
> ...


 
Do not underestimate the power of the force

If I believed opposite of my belief I might be able to influence a different result.

There are 2 sides to every story , which side of the fence you're on determines which side is right.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

DesertOkie said:


> ..I do have one question for Biz, did any of your customers follow you when you left your employer?


"MY" customers?!?! :laughing:

I was an employee. I did not have customers, my employer had customers. Those customers remained his till the day he died.

EDIT: What kind of person thinks because they were paid to perform a task by someone that bought and paid for the right to be there, that somehow now the customer belongs to the person paid to perform the task? The thought never entered my mind that I had the right to lay claim to my employer's clients. The person that believes that is appropriate should have their photo next to the words "unethical" and "underhanded" in the dictionary.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

stillaround said:


> ....this stealing pure and simple reaction is pure self righteous bull crap.


You are certainly entitled to your opinion. And you may well be correct.

How dare the people that tow the line, pay the taxes, buy the insurance, earn the licenses, adhere to labor laws, and actually pay for worker's comp coverage feel cheated by the ticks sucking the gravy off the top without paying their dues. 

You're right SA, I've got a lot of nerve and should instead be praising the shortcutters for their ingenuity.


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> You are certainly entitled to your opinion. And you may well be correct.
> 
> How dare the people that tow the line, pay the taxes, buy the insurance, earn the licenses, adhere to labor laws, and actually pay for worker's comp coverage feel cheated by the ticks sucking the gravy off the top without paying their dues.
> 
> You're right SA, I've got a lot of nerve and should instead be praising the shortcutters for their ingenuity.


I think both of you are right, if you don't make enough money to support your family, then guys do side work, that's the way it is and I agree how can someone with a legit business compete with guys doing side work, you can't. 

There was talk a few years ago here to have a limited plumbing license, not tested for and only given to Journeyman who qualified to take their masters test, which is 12,000 hours under a master plumber and 4 years of school, just to get rid of the handyman doing plumbing work, the electricians and HVAC guys both have limited licenses.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

My question now to the proponents of side jobbing is this...

Should the contractor license designation and liability insurance requirements be eliminated for residential service plumbing work? If not, WHY?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Pick me! Pick me! I know the answer! **raises waving hand in air**

No, because that would make a level playing field and that is not what side jobbers want. They prefer an unfair advantage.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

revenge said:


> *If one of your guys is doing side work apparently you are not paying him enough* especially if he works 40 plus for you and then works 10 plus on the side


A very valid point...
If I remember correctly the amount you were being paid was at a level where any business owner with a smidgeon of conscience would be embarrassed to be doing so...

If I was in your situation not only would I be the biggest side-jobber the world ever saw, trying to pull a side job out of every customer I was sent to, and doing the work with the company truck and parts, but I'd also take everything off the truck that I didn't want and bring it to a pawn shop...:laughing:


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> My question now to the proponents of side jobbing is this...
> 
> Should the contractor license designation and liability insurance requirements be eliminated for residential service plumbing work? If not, WHY?



So you would be ok with "side jobbing" without lic,insurance, ect in those states that have a "handyman" exemption? This is where no lic is required up to a certain amount of work, in Tucson AZ it was $500.


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> My question now to the proponents of side jobbing is this...
> 
> Should the contractor license designation and liability insurance requirements be eliminated for residential service plumbing work? If not, WHY?


I agree, and its different for me as an employee vs an owner, but for damage to the environment and our general health, I'd rather have a plumber doing side work than some handyman making cross connections all over the place. I can't tell you how many times I've followed handymen on water heaters and they used compression couplings on the copper gas line instead of a Flare. Yes I have ranted on appliance techs before but damnit man, 3/8 poly supply line to the dishwasher, and the drain hose ran strait to the garbage disposal, with no loop or Air Gap. I'd rather see these guys get punished, than a plumber doing side work, unless the side worker is stealing customers from the their employer, like giving the customer a cheaper price than their company, on company time. That crap is straight up stealing and should be punished as such. No way anyone getting caught doing that should be able to get their plumbing license, ever, anywhere!!!


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> You are certainly entitled to your opinion. And you may well be correct.
> 
> How dare the people that tow the line, pay the taxes, buy the insurance, earn the licenses, adhere to labor laws, and actually pay for worker's comp coverage feel cheated by the ticks sucking the gravy off the top without paying their dues.
> 
> You're right SA, I've got a lot of nerve and should instead be praising the shortcutters for their ingenuity.


 You make a compelling point:laughing:...and I get it....just there are so many injustices out there, side jobbing isnt monolithic....there are some scenarios that neuters the heinous nature of the crime.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

DesertOkie said:


> So you would be ok with "side jobbing" without lic,insurance, ect in those states that have a "handyman" exemption? This is where no lic is required up to a certain amount of work, in Tucson AZ it was $500.


No, I would not be "OK" with it but if the law allows unlicensed/uninsured hacks to cut into potable water, sanitary sewer, or natural gas piping then so be it. However, the community that elected those officials that made it "OK" deserve what it gets.


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## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

john433 said:


> I got out of side work about 5 years ago when times were good but I do all commercial service and boss does not care if we do side work in his truck as long as we put gas in it . I am starting to get back I to it because it is slow right now in our union but mostly friends and family . If times get worse I will jump In with both feet and open my own .


 It's one thing for your employer to not mind if you use his truck in such a fashion, but his insurer might. By its presence at the worksite it implies that your bosses company is doing the work. If a job went sideways and burned to the ground, who do you think the homeowners insurance will be pursuing? Fire dept shows up and photos are taken, your bosses truck is there; if you are insured they will claim you were working for your boss that day, your bosses insurer will claim the opposite; how do you think you will fare between these three sets of well-funded lawyers in court?

Your boss may be kind, but he's naive. Ante in and buy your own wheels, and stop exposing that well-intentioned but foolish boss of yours to risks that have no upside for him.


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## SlowDrains (Mar 25, 2013)

CaberTosser said:


> It's one thing for your employer to not mind if you use his truck in such a fashion, but his insurer might. By its presence at the worksite it implies that your bosses company is doing the work. If a job went sideways and burned to the ground, who do you think the homeowners insurance will be pursuing? Fire dept shows up and photos are taken, your bosses truck is there; if you are insured they will claim you were working for your boss that day, your bosses insurer will claim the opposite; how do you think you will fare between these three sets of well-funded lawyers in court?
> 
> Your boss may be kind, but he's naive. Ante in and buy your own wheels, and stop exposing that well-intentioned but foolish boss of yours to risks that have no upside for him.


It's funny you say that I told my boss my intentions today and that I plan on using my pickup as a vehicle he says " you can use the van" I declined and said I don't think that's a good idea


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## SlowDrains (Mar 25, 2013)

I think my situation is a little different though I work for a gc as a full time sub in a way I'm the only licensed plumber


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## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

SlowDrains said:


> It's funny you say that I told my boss my intentions today and that I plan on using my pickup as a vehicle he says " you can use the van" I declined and said I don't think that's a good idea


 I'll expand a few new possibilities of side jobbing off the company truck: the customer might get the impression you're stealing from the shop and think less of you. They might play it as a bargaining tactic after the work is done if they're jerks, threatening to call you in to your real boss unless you drop your price. If you're working as an 'independent' contractor in your own right does working under someone else's signage make you look remotely professional? (or for that matter independent?).

Also, if your intention is to garner more work brought by word of mouth or advertising, it would be in your best interest to have your own signage accompanying you to each job; or at the very least, not someone else's.


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## SlowDrains (Mar 25, 2013)

CaberTosser said:


> I'll expand a few new possibilities of side jobbing off the company truck: the customer might get the impression you're stealing from the shop and think less of you. They might play it as a bargaining tactic after the work is done if they're jerks, threatening to call you in to your real boss unless you drop your price. If you're working as an 'independent' contractor in your own right does working under someone else's signage make you look remotely professional? (or for that matter independent?).
> 
> Also, if your intention is to garner more work brought by word of mouth or advertising, it would be in your best interest to have your own signage accompanying you to each job; or at the very least, not someone else's.


Exactly when I'm out driving around I want people to see my signage


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

No side jobs allowed in my company in my trucks. Grounds for a firing period! Glad I have good people working for me.


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

MTDUNN said:


> No side jobs allowed in my company in my trucks. Grounds for a firing period! Glad I have good people working for me.


will you fire them if they do it on there own time, not conflicted with work, there own tools, and material, and has nothing to do with your customers or contacts?


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

gardon said:


> will you fire them if they do it on there own time, not conflicted with work, there own tools, and material, and has nothing to do with your customers or contacts?


I give them personalized business cards. I wouldn't mind if it was a friend or their neighbor given your exceptions.


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

sounds reasonable enough, they are at least going to do that, given the skill they have learned, and the phone calls from loved ones, friends etc, that know what they do. One of the worst trades you can be in, if you want to enjoy your time off is plumbing/hvac. (when theres a problem, they will find you!) office workers get left alone on the weekends, and nights


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## gardon (Apr 24, 2013)

everyone knows how to sit in a desk chair, and stare at the clock


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## jc-htownplumber (Feb 29, 2012)

To say that my boss doesn't care is not true but he has given me two jobs that he didn't want to do. The customer later called me again to do other jobs for them. That's when I stopped I was not going to take customers. I get some side work but its no where near the company customers.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

On prv/exp tank reqs, 80psi was governing rule in many counties in ohio/ky at one time. If it tested higher, no water heater replacement.

You are standing in the customer's home, YOUR FAMILY POSSIBLY giving these people exuberant prices through the direction of 2 companies you represent that employs you. 

People that are sticker shocked, not expecting any code violations at time of replacement, a high water pressure issue they've had for years, and now the young guy following orders is laying the law down to spend possibly another 500 clams????

I then offer my time and effort, after the job cancels because these people have someone in front of them willing to do the job accurately, not illegally, getting those important devices installed along with that heater and everyone is happy. 

This was happening to the same company that kept shortcutting all of our paychecks, sending us out to BFE when they knew it was cheaper to put guys in motion for close proximity jobs. 

Treat your manpower like **** and you'll get your face rubbed in what comes out your arse every time. 


^^^^^

But none of this happens when you act like a good boss, do your job, don't screw over your employees. I feel a good deal of bosses can't own up to their misdeeds, constantly. 

I'm a boss myself... but I don't have employees. I sub out to another plumbing contractor when needed, saves time and effort instantly.

Burn your employees and you'll know why your house is on fire with the doors nailed shut.


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## plumber101us (Feb 25, 2013)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> On prv/exp tank reqs, 80psi was governing rule in many counties in ohio/ky at one time. If it tested higher, no water heater replacement.
> 
> You are standing in the customer's home, YOUR FAMILY POSSIBLY giving these people exuberant prices through the direction of 2 companies you represent that employs you.
> 
> ...


Amen Brother how true


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## Copper face (May 8, 2013)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> On prv/exp tank reqs, 80psi was governing rule in many counties in ohio/ky at one time. If it tested higher, no water heater replacement.
> 
> You are standing in the customer's home, YOUR FAMILY POSSIBLY giving these people exuberant prices through the direction of 2 companies you represent that employs you.
> 
> ...


 I could not agree more !!!


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## Absaroka Joe (Mar 30, 2013)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Side work is stealing. You're stealing from the company and co-workers. That money can go towards better insurance, retirement, 40 hours, overtime pay and increase company profits.You are ultimately stealing from yourself. If you're not making enough money at work learn to negotiate a better wage.


 
Mr. Hilliard, I often find your posts to be the most informative of any on this site, but to suggest that side work is stealing is way too harsh and unjustified. I personally don't assume our firm has any claim on an employees free time. A couple of our best workers have have side businesses that they run on weekends and as long a they are productive while on the clock for us, so be it. I have even a couple times rented equipment to one employee to use on his weekend gig. Often highly motivated individuals want someday to work for themselves and doing sidework is a logical first step. I am not going to discourage them. They may or may never start their own full time business. Threatening a good worker to stop doing side work would likely only hasten the time in which they quit working for us anyway.


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## Allencat (Nov 27, 2012)

side work isn't stealing,it's still work.while i'm working at my 9 to 5 plumbing job,when i get off work i'ma be doing side jobs and i'ma do side jobs on my days off work too,i don't give a f*** what anybody say about side work,side work is just extra money in my pocket.no i'm not stealing from the company i work for,why? because my company does stricly new commercial plumbing and i'm gonna do residental service plumbing on the side,so therefor there's no way i can interfear with my company's business or steal their customers because since this is 2 differtent ends of plumbing.


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

Allencat said:


> side work isn't stealing,it's still work.while i'm working at my 9 to 5 plumbing job,when i get off work i'ma be doing side jobs and i'ma do side jobs on my days off work,i don't give a f*** what anybody say about side work,side work is just extra money in my pocket.no i'm not stealing from th company i work for,why? because my company does stricly commercial new construction plumbing and i'm gonna do residental service plumbing on the side,so therefor there's no way i can interfear with my company's business or still their customers because since this is 2 differtent ends of plumbing.


I have a job for you to do


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## Allencat (Nov 27, 2012)

moonapprentice said:


> I have a job for you to do


 
naw i'm good i don't noone on this forum board,i might get set up,ratted on ,and turned in to the laws.


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## phishfood (Nov 18, 2012)

Don't worry, the laws don't have anything against stoned curb painting at night, so you will be just fine, little buddy.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Allencat said:


> naw i'm good i don't noone on this forum board,i might get set up,ratted on ,and turned in to the laws.


It's already in the works !!!


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Allencat said:


> side work isn't stealing,it's still work.while i'm working at my 9 to 5 plumbing job,when i get off work i'ma be doing side jobs and i'ma do side jobs on my days off work too,i don't give a f*** what anybody say about side work,side work is just extra money in my pocket.no i'm not stealing from the company i work for,why? because my company does stricly new commercial plumbing and i'm gonna do residental service plumbing on the side,so therefor there's no way i can interfear with my company's business or steal their customers because since this is 2 differtent ends of plumbing.


You couldn't service an empty gas can let alone plumbing. I have a friend Old school. He needs a tranny so I referred you to him. He likes his trannies just like u. Stupid


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Allencat said:


> side work isn't stealing,it's still work.while i'm working at my 9 to 5 plumbing job,when i get off work i'ma be doing side jobs and i'ma do side jobs on my days off work too,i don't give a f*** what anybody say about side work,side work is just extra money in my pocket.no i'm not stealing from the company i work for,why? because my company does stricly new commercial plumbing and i'm gonna do residental service plumbing on the side,so therefor there's no way i can interfear with my company's business or steal their customers because since this is 2 differtent ends of plumbing.


Let's vote to ban this curb painter from this site.... aye


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Doesn't work that way. I've tried that before. That won't ban one of ther own any way


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

Allencat said:


> side work isn't stealing,it's still work.while I'm working at my 9 to 5 plumbing job,when i get off work I'm be doing side jobs and I'm do side jobs on my days off work too,i don't give a f*** what anybody say about side work,side work is just extra money in my pocket.no I'm not stealing from the company i work for,why? because my company does strictly new commercial plumbing and I'm gonna do residential service plumbing on the side,so therefor there's no way i can interfere with my company's business or steal their customers because since this is 2 different ends of plumbing.


*Allencat
You might not think you are stealing but you are from all the service repair plumbers that make their bread and butter, from doing the work you are doing in such a cheap ass way no license,
not even a legal business license, liability ins. as also required by gov, regulations you pay up all those regulations, just like the real plumbers then you proclaim that you are not stealing ! ! :thumbsup:
*


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

JERRYMAC said:


> *Allencat*
> *You might not think you are stealing but you are from all the service repair plumbers that make their bread and butter, from doing the work you are doing in such a cheap ass way no license,*
> *not even a legal business license, liability ins. as also required by gov, regulations you pay up all those regulations, just like the real plumbers then you proclaim that you are not stealing ! ! :thumbsup:*


...............................................................................................................................................


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

I love side work, makes me tons of money. 

An entire house pipes in pex marked "not for potable water" $$
A water heater with female adapters hand tight $$
No vents period in the new bathroom $$
Hot water to the toilet $$


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

I won't argue but there wasn't a curse word in my post, just sayin.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Just my opinion and my policy. No side work period. I have 4 terms for new employees. No Drugs, Don't be late without a call. No shows. And no sidework.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

James420 said:


> I won't argue but there wasn't a curse word in my post, just sayin.


Lol


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## spamispeople (Feb 21, 2009)

My boss encourages side work and lets me use his van after hours. I don't feel the least bit guilty because I made more money working at a supply house 6 years ago than I do now as a Journeyman.


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## cydejob (Feb 19, 2012)

van and material? :whistling2:


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## spamispeople (Feb 21, 2009)

cydejob said:


> van and material? :whistling2:


 Negative. I know I'm getting screwed, but I'm not that type of person.


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## cydejob (Feb 19, 2012)

Your boss must be an idiot or not completely understand what is going on. I can't say much because I built my business on the side over 8 years. One thing I did was never bit the hand that fed me and I always had my own truck/van, material, and accounts. It was all separate and my employers knew exactly what was going on. They were all big dogs and always tossed me the scraps because they knew I would get the job done and still get my work in everyday. Please do yourself a favor and get your own vehicle and some insurance. You are on a slippery slope and if something goes wrong Its not going to look good on you or your employer.


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## spamispeople (Feb 21, 2009)

cydejob said:


> Your boss must be an idiot or not completely understand what is going on. I can't say much because I built my business on the side over 8 years. One thing I did was never bit the hand that fed me and I always had my own truck/van, material, and accounts. It was all separate and my employers knew exactly what was going on. They were all big dogs and always tossed me the scraps because they knew I would get the job done and still get my work in everyday. Please do yourself a favor and get your own vehicle and some insurance. You are on a slippery slope and if something goes wrong Its not going to look good on you or your employer.


 Yes he understands, and I assume he allows it to make up for the money that he doesn't want to pay his employees. I have $1m in liability insurance and my own truck.


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