# Tankless Maintenance



## plbgbiz

What type of maintenance issues are you having with tankless heaters now that they are not so new anymore?

How often do you flush them out?
How long is the service call?
Assuming a proper valve set up was installed, what materials do you use for flushing?
Life of the tankless vs. tank type?
What other maintenance issues have regularly come up?
Are the customers as happy with them 3 years after the initial install?


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## plbgbiz

Hmmm...The silence on this topic is deafening.


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## RealLivePlumber

Please post an intro, tell us a little about yourself................:laughing::laughing::laughing:

Just kidding. 

Sorry, we don't do much tankless. I think they recomend a yearly flush.


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## plbgbiz

INRO:

I've worked in maintenance at a motel in high school and read an article about starting my own handyman plumbing business. Thought I would start with tankless heaters. Wanted to do drains since that is where the easy money is but I couldn't afford the $150 power snake so I decided to do tankless water heaters since I already have pliers and a torch. :laughing:


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## Will

I personal don't like them. I haven't had much luck with any brand other than Rheem. I tell my customers to just stay with a tank type heater.


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## vinpadalino

I don't like them. I'll stick to storage tanks. Check the consumer report on them. Not too good.


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## Phat Cat

Payback is too long IMO. Most of the H.O.s who inquire about them realize that the cost associated with endless hot water is more than they anticipated.

A little discussed reality with tankless, the savings are more dismal when you factor in that H.O.'s change their habits as a result of having access to endless hot water. All quoted savings are based on using hot water in the same way you did prior to getting a tankless. Reality is, after a tankless, people will take longer showers, fill up the Whirlpool more often, and generally waste more hot water since the possibility of running out is eliminated.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

1/32" of calcium lime buildup will rob the efficiency of a tankless by as much as 30%.


When you clean them, you can't see how well it cleans, just the difference of color in the solution...and that could be intentional to 'think' it is working.

If they created a tankless that was priced respectively and had compartments that were built like waterproof suitcases to clean...I'd sell the dog**** out of them.

But those scales and charts/graphs are fictitious when we all know those compartments lime scale up. It's the end product of heating water at high temperatures with mineral content. 


People don't drain their water heaters now....you think they'll listen to a plumber on a tankless? How could it possibly need cleaning when it is so small in respect to a big bad tank water heater? 


In hot climate areas, it's a no brainer...less than 35 degree temperature rise. Put those in cold climate area and almost double that degree rise. 

I get stroked for my knowledge on these all the time. Haven't mislead one customer with the facts I push that are points considered in my region in relation to hard water and temperatures that affect how hard the unit has to work.

I know of customers that have them in my area, they always undersize them though because they bought on price before sizing. No fault to the product but telling someone 3-5 grand really corks their bat, so to speak. 

And you most likely won't be back to clean it for up to $200 a cleaning. You can cheat and white vineager the unit...but you'll have an hour in it to do it right.

A strong acid like muriatic would be my answer...but since it is not a product that's used in food preparation or can be consumed by humans, it's off the list. You can drink vineager if you had to.


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## Redwood

Here with our incoming water temps in the mid 30's in the winter, really the only residential use for tankless is someone that has a car wash shower system, and is ready to pay the price for the ganged system it would require.

We don't see many at all...

Those that do have them are less than satisfied and probably would go back to a tank next time.

The main reasons is the slow payback, and inconvenience associated with low flow and intermittent hot water use without a storage tank. Once you figure a storage tank added to the system the cost and payback makes it prohibitive.


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## user2090

So far, I have seen a lot of plumbers post about not liking them, but no one has stated real solid reasons for that. Except the payback, and possibly the cleaning procedures.
Not having had a chance to install them, but being very interested in it here are a few observations that I have made.
1. There are several plumbers on here that install quite a few, and make who knows how much money doing it.
2. Ignorance on the workings of a tankless prevent many from pursuing any type of attempt at gaining some market share with them.
3. Most "Problems" are from improperly installed units, and therefore cannot be blamed on the product.
4. I am convinced that with many other types of products, we the plumber are our own worst enemy. 
That's it for this round.


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## rocksteady

I don't sell them for economic reasons at all, I sell them for convenience. People don't have a regular water heater because it's cheaper than not having hot water, they like the convenience of not having to boil water every time they want to take a bath. We've all gotten used to this convenience and take it as a given now. Tankless heaters just take this convenience further. I don't sell the dog **** out of them though.  I really need to find somebody that's not looking to save money but rather somebody who wants the other benefits (endless hot water, space savings, high tech geeks, etc.). I think they're great so long as you understand their limitations and know what they will do and how they'll perform in different installations. I've seen a ton of folks with tankless heaters that are soured on them now because they were promised the world and what they got was a crappy tankless install that wasn't thought out and most likely undersized to save $$$.






Paul


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## user2090

Ok, I have a sceneraio for those who are oppposed to tankless.

I have a customer that is going to need a water heater any time now, due to the condition of the 40 gallon tank.

They are a younger married company with 5 kids. Their oldest is 8 years old.
With a family of seven what would you put in for them?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

50 gallon tank water heater, and I guarantee 2 things:


If you call them back, ask what they think, and they'll say they have a lot more hot water than the old 40 that came out, 

and they will still use hot water in moderation, and they probably didn't spend over a grand to accomplish the bottom line.


Trying to push tankless is a sales pitch/move entirely, when one product certainly tasks the need, like it has for 50+ years. 

And instead of asking them to spend 3, they spend around 1. 

After a week of having a new water heater, there is absolutely no regret in their decision making, especially when the bank account balance reflects that.


Out in california or florida where they can outside mount, not have to worry about venting or 60 degree rise... you better be installing those.


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## Redwood

Indie said:


> Ok, I have a sceneraio for those who are oppposed to tankless.
> 
> I have a customer that is going to need a water heater any time now, due to the condition of the 40 gallon tank.
> 
> They are a younger married company with 5 kids. Their oldest is 8 years old.
> With a family of seven what would you put in for them?


I think we are wandering away on the thread subject...

I stated above that I don't see many installs here and the reason.

But in response to your scenario you need to give better info...

What is their demand requirements? Are they doing this in a 1 bath home?:laughing:
Yea my parents did that with 6 kids....

What are the rate of rise requirements? Are we in Miami or, Fairbanks, Alaska?

What are the energy sources available?

What is the sizes of the spaces available for mechanical equipment installation?

Is there other already installed equipment available that should be considered? I.E. a boiler

Are you wishing to blindly force tankless as the best solution or, is high output tank an option?

just a few of the many questions....


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## plumbpro

Indie said:


> Ok, I have a sceneraio for those who are oppposed to tankless.
> 
> I have a customer that is going to need a water heater any time now, due to the condition of the 40 gallon tank.
> 
> They are a younger married company with 5 kids. Their oldest is 8 years old.
> With a family of seven what would you put in for them?


80 gal marathon, or a high efficiency gas wit recirculator connection built in, like AO Smith vortex


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## user2090

Ok, Red. 

52 degree water.
2.5 bath
Natural Gas Readily available
Mechanical room is a nasty closest type room. Tank-less easily moved to exterior wall in other part of basement.
They have gas forced air, for heating and a/c
Ok, I hope that is enough information. My turn

What would the cost and perfomance be for a high output tank, or your other options?

Dunbar, Why should they have to use moderation, when there is a solution that will provide endless hot water. To be honest, I would not be a happy customer, if I spent a grand and still had to use moderation when talking how water.


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## Redwood

Nasty mechanical room does not say the space available. Is there room for a larger tank with the old one removed? How much?

One other question Indie...

In your scenario what unit are you proposing?:whistling2:

PS you are doing a nice job of optimizing this for a tankless install now that you have moved from Indy....:laughing:


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## Master Mark

*the death song for tankless.......*

DUNBAR, REDWOOD 
are you guys are all forgetting something here..

REMEMBER.....ALL THIS CRAP IS GOING DOWN THE DRAIN AT OF THE END OF THIS YEAR....WHEN THE TAX INCENTIVES END...12-31-10


I had a long talk with the Rheem guy on Friday
at their cook out and they were at a loss to answer my biggest question...
acted like deer stareing into headlights...

once you dont get that 30% tax rebate how are 
you going to make a tankless heater look feasable?????

how are you going to sell tankless once this 
crutch is kicked out from underneath it????

and I also asked why would they sink more money 
into tankless research and development with this hanging on
the horision.....????

I remember when those tax credits ended back in
1986 for the solar industry..... even the very best of them were all gone 
and out of business in less than two years...


Without the TAX CREDITS, its all over , 
and the fat lady is getting ready to sing in a few short months.....:laughing::laughing::yes::yes:..





























http://weilhammerplumbing.com/houseofhorrors/


if you want a dirt cheap tankless heater , just wait till next
spring --summer when the supply houses are stuck with about 50 of them and 
cant sell them.....you should be able to get one for 1/3 of the cost 
just because their will not be a market for them....




history is just repeating itself again.....


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## Redwood

Master Mark said:


> DUNBAR, REDWOOD
> are you guys are all forgetting something here..
> 
> I had a long talk with the Rheem guy on Friday at their cook out and they were at a loss to answer my biggest question......
> 
> once you dont get that 30% tax rebate how are you going to make a tankless heater look feasable?????


Oh I'm not forgetting that...

Already Indie had to move further south to get that 52 degree water temp...:laughing:

I'm pretty sure he's got to stack the deck more before all the bases get covered...:whistling2:

Really we don't see many up here with winter water temps in the mid 30's...

My own nephew built his own house and did a pretty nice job of it, decided to go with an lp gas tankless...

We talked after the fact and he was saying there were some inconveniences that he is now tolerating. Mainly the flow required to turn on and the gpm limitation in the winter. Usable yes... But with limitations and inconvenience.

I told him we should have consulted and discussed a storage tank option but he's not going to bother with it. He'll be doing a tank next time around...:whistling2:


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## plbgbiz

I think we all agree that the marketing of *ALL* tankless manufacturers can be taken with a grain of salt. It has all been based (fo the most part on saving energy bucks and getting tax credits. I agree that it is a bubble that is due to bust next year.

However, as usual we as an industry are still left to service what is being installed. So what are we up against? Are they really servicable or was that over promised as well?

I believe (especially in warm water climates) there can be a place for them but the long term maintenance maintenance is seldom discussed. For instance, I think having one in my shop behind the house would be helpful for washing cars adn other utility type things and I would not have to keep a 40 gal. tank ready for weekly or monthly use. And save space. But then there's the cost.:whistling2:


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## Master Mark

can you say edsel???

once the bottom falls out, the companies go under

the service and support will dry up and fade away eventually 
and then everyone will be left on their own....to fend for themselves..... 


when the units go bad, they will most likely get replaced with tank type heaters
because that will be the only logical choice.....


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## user2090

Sorry for hijacking your thread.


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## Titan Plumbing

I have a querstion.............How many plumbers actually have them in their home?


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## Master Mark

*been wanting one*

i have been wanting to try one but cant bring myself
to get rid of the 75 gallon bradford white I presently have....

I have a brand new nortsz in the box supposed to be able to do 6.9 gpm, about a 2005 unit....

 but I cant bring myself to install it...


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## Phat Cat

We have an 80 gallon electric Whirlpool water heater (came with the house) and a recirc. pump. At one time, there were six of us and we rarely run out of HW. 

If it goes soon, I would seriously consider one of the hybrid heat pump water heaters. Of course, the Federal Tax Rebate weighs heavily in the decision. No rebate, don't know that we would spring for it. IDK

In any case, Tankless is not even a consideration. My soon to be three teenagers would NEVER leave the bathroom.


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## PlungerJockey

I've installed a couple and I've have not had any problems.

I do somework for a resturant chain and all of their waterheaters have been replaced with a pair of Takagis. I go in once a year and flush them with CLR. I have installed valve kits on each unit to speed the process. I flush each unit for 45 minutes. I charge 2 hours to do the pair and charge a pump fee and charge for the CLR.

CLR is fairly corrosive to steel, it not recommended for use on copper. Takagi says use CLR, Rinnai has their own brand of poison they push which is just as corrosive.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

For restaurants, no matter where they are in the united states, is a great application. Constant hot water demand that can span hours at a time.

Nothing worse than a busy night and now the dishes aren't getting clean. A danger all to itself.


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## rocksteady

Choctaw said:


> I have a querstion.............How many plumbers actually have them in their home?


 
I do! :clap:

I've had an exterior Rinnai 84 for the last 5 1/2 years and have had no problems. I've flushed it and that's it. Our house is small and by going tankless I got an extra closet in the house and didn't have to deal with an ugly water heater dog house on the side of the house. 


Pretty sure Randy (RSP) has one too.




Paul


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## PlungerJockey

I got a great deal on one from a Rinnai rep. I plan on installing it in my new home.


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## ckoch407

Indie said:


> So far, I have seen a lot of plumbers post about not liking them, but no one has stated real solid reasons for that. Except the payback, and possibly the cleaning procedures.
> Not having had a chance to install them, but being very interested in it here are a few observations that I have made.
> 1. There are several plumbers on here that install quite a few, and make who knows how much money doing it.
> 2. Ignorance on the workings of a tankless prevent many from pursuing any type of attempt at gaining some market share with them.
> 3. Most "Problems" are from improperly installed units, and therefore cannot be blamed on the product.
> 4. I am convinced that with many other types of products, we the plumber are our own worst enemy.
> That's it for this round.



Man you said a mouthful there. When properly sized, and the tax credits and utility rebates available you would be a fool not to install them.They have THE best manufacturers waranty and you will never replace a heater as you will with a tank heater. Only parts when the time comes. Financing helps a lot too. Noritz is what I install. Have done several warranty jobs for Bosch and Rheem. Never a Noritz or a Rinnai. I dont do a lot compared to others but will be offering them every opportunity I get this winter and forever after.


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## ckoch407

Indie said:


> Ok, Red.
> 
> 52 degree water.
> 2.5 bath
> Natural Gas Readily available
> Mechanical room is a nasty closest type room. Tank-less easily moved to exterior wall in other part of basement.
> They have gas forced air, for heating and a/c
> Ok, I hope that is enough information. My turn
> 
> What would the cost and perfomance be for a high output tank, or your other options?
> 
> Dunbar, Why should they have to use moderation, when there is a solution that will provide endless hot water. To be honest, I would not be a happy customer, if I spent a grand and still had to use moderation when talking how water.


Present both options with features and benefits of each. Point out that if they plan to live there more than 5-6 years tankless is a great longer term investment, especially since they are adding kids. Tank is cheaper now if thats what you want, but ...


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## Titan Plumbing

The payback is 20 yrs min. With the added maintenance I don't really see the upside, with the exception of us putting more money in OUR pockets.

At 4-5K for a retrofit install the HO can have several tank type heaters and as was said earlier the HO's will end up using more fuel and water with a tankless.


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## ckoch407

Choctaw said:


> The payback is 20 yrs min. With the added maintenance I don't really see the upside, with the exception of us putting more money in OUR pockets.
> 
> At 4-5K for a retrofit install the HO can have several tank type heaters and as was said earlier the HO's will end up using more fuel and water with a tankless.


Would you mind sharing the math you used to arrive at a 20 year return? And who says everyone wants to suffer the inconvenience of replacing a tank 3 to 1? They may not be for everyone. That much is true. But if you give the option and say 1 in 10 want one who is it bad for if they know the facts? Who am I to push them away? Different strokes for different folks.


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## Titan Plumbing

After many questions to different tankless reps; one finally, although extremely reluctant explained the payback was 20 yrs minimum. One can pencil whip the payback into all sorts of scenarios, but I personally don't see the benefit, short or long term. But then again I don't see the benefit to owning a Chevy, either.


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## Master Mark

*their is no pay back*



ckoch407 said:


> Would you mind sharing the math you used to arrive at a 20 year return? And who says everyone wants to suffer the inconvenience of replacing a tank 3 to 1? They may not be for everyone. That much is true. But if you give the option and say 1 in 10 want one who is it bad for if they know the facts? Who am I to push them away? Different strokes for different folks.


 
you two can debate this till hell freezes over....
What do you charge to de-lime tankless heaters?? once a year $175.00 ....$250???


if you dont factor in the mandatory maintaince then you are simply
*lieing to the customer* about payback... just to get them to go tankless 

that is called .........greed......... you blind yourself to the facts and mis-inform 
the customer just to get to make some big bucks and then you walk away
then 8 months pass and they call you and you say oooppps I forgot to tell you 
that you need to de-lime these things every so often........


the average return on the investment works out to about
22 years...*consumer reports 08..* that is with a saveings of
a massive* $80 bucks* a year over a normal tank type heater.. 

wow, 80 bucks , I want to run out and get one right now.....

read it for yourself..

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...eaters/overview/tankless-water-heaters-ov.htm




you must factor in the *de-limeing service* that MUST be 
done at least once a year or sometimes TWICE...in Indiana...

*are you planning on going out for the next 22 years for FREE to do this??* 

What do you plan to charge the customer to DE_LIME
their tankless unit each year??? Does $175.00. sound fair???

basically...if the customer does not do their own maintaince 
on these units their really is no saveings at all..
their is actually a huge loss over a tank type heater.. :yes::yes::yes:

now once the tax credits end........

the fat lady sings like a songbird............


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## plbgbiz

Master Mark said:


> if you dont factor in the mandatory maintaince then you are simply
> *lieing to the customer* about payback... just to get them to go tankless


That's really where I was going when I started the thread. Are we really informing the customer of the LONG TERM commitment to tankless maintenance costs?

My 2nd point is this...Are WE really aware of the long term commitment to tankless maintenance costs? (Not so much lying but...) Or are we just turning a blind eye to the service issues down the road?


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## Master Mark

*a blind eye*



plbgbiz said:


> That's really where I was going when I started the thread. Are we really informing the customer of the LONG TERM commitment to tankless maintenance costs?
> 
> My 2nd point is this...Are WE really aware of the long term commitment to tankless maintenance costs? (Not so much lying but...) Or are we just *turning a blind eye to the service issues down the road?*


 
YES.... a blind eye is one way to put it nicely...
then you get people who think its almost their patrotic 
duty to get a tankless heater to save the planet and stimulate the economy........


a blind eye has been turned towards a lot of things 
over the past 10 years just to keep this economy going.... 

like the houseing bubble and mortgage fraud..
and many other nasty things going on that we cant mention here......


anyway if it has to be serviced every year for $175
x 20 years, and you only save $80 bucks max per year...


the math dont add up but people still think that they 
need one .... :laughing::laughing:



.tax credits still end on 12-31-10.











.


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## plumbpro

The only time I have ever recommended a tankless is when you literally need endless hot water. Though, a high end gas can recover more than a tankful in less than an hour and you can always run 2 tanks together or in succession if room allows


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## plumbpro

As far as high end gas goes, I put in an AO Smith Vertex in a few months ago and I am pretty sure recovery rate on the 50 gal was close to 100 gal an hour(correct me if I'm wrong on that). At a unit cost of 1600 and %90 efficiency that is a great deal if you need the hot water. They also have recirc lines built into the side.


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## Airgap

Choctaw said:


> The payback is 20 yrs min. With the added maintenance I don't really see the upside, with the exception of us putting more money in OUR pockets.
> 
> At 4-5K for a retrofit install the HO can have several tank type heaters and as was said earlier the HO's will end up using more fuel and water with a tankless.


Funny thing about a 20 year return...I have lived in a couple places that I thought I would be in for the long haul...I have yet to make it anywhere past 6 years....I'm not too excited about a 20 year return.....


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## ckoch407

Master Mark said:


> you two can debate this till hell freezes over....
> What do you charge to de-lime tankless heaters?? once a year $175.00 ....$250???
> 
> 
> if you dont factor in the mandatory maintaince then you are simply
> *lieing to the customer* about payback... just to get them to go tankless
> 
> that is called .........greed......... you blind yourself to the facts and mis-inform
> the customer just to get to make some big bucks and then you walk away
> then 8 months pass and they call you and you say oooppps I forgot to tell you
> that you need to de-lime these things every so often........
> 
> 
> the average return on the investment works out to about
> 22 years...*consumer reports 08..* that is with a saveings of
> a massive* $80 bucks* a year over a normal tank type heater..
> 
> wow, 80 bucks , I want to run out and get one right now.....
> 
> read it for yourself..
> 
> http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...eaters/overview/tankless-water-heaters-ov.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you must factor in the *de-limeing service* that MUST be
> done at least once a year or sometimes TWICE...in Indiana...
> 
> *are you planning on going out for the next 22 years for FREE to do this??*
> 
> What do you plan to charge the customer to DE_LIME
> their tankless unit each year??? Does $175.00. sound fair???
> 
> basically...if the customer does not do their own maintaince
> on these units their really is no saveings at all..
> their is actually a huge loss over a tank type heater.. :yes::yes::yes:
> 
> now once the tax credits end........
> 
> the fat lady sings like a songbird............




One can find infinite literature/reports for or against tankless. And as was pointed out the return can be manipulated for or against the actual return as well. So I wont argue those points. But I will say that most of the ones Ive installed, the owner did not buy based on the return.(Does one buy a Ferrari based on a return?)It was more for the fact that they will never run out of hot water and will never have to replace the unit. And the wives loved the extra space that was cleared by getting rid of old tank. 

As for the descaling, there are several ways to handle that. 
* Charge X amount per year as most have pointed out. (A gross waist of money for the owner indeed).
* Install a point of use descaler (Noritz has their own or you can use any other). 1 or 2 de-scalings would pay for it.
* Install a softener. X per year forever to descale or X one time only and have the benefit of a new softener. 
* Include the descaling in your annual maintenance plan (if you offer this service) just as you would include flushing the tank water heater. 


Or plan B: Stand back and watch, clearing the way for those who do offer them.:jester:


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## Master Mark

*I will stand back and watch*



ckoch407 said:


> .
> 
> As for the descaling, there are several ways to handle that.
> * Charge X amount per year as most have pointed out. (A gross waist of money for the owner indeed).
> * Install a point of use descaler (Noritz has their own or you can use any other). 1 or 2 de-scalings would pay for it.
> * Install a softener. X per year forever to descale or X one time only and have the benefit of a new softener.
> * Include the descaling in your annual maintenance plan (if you offer this service) just as you would include flushing the tank water heater.
> 
> 
> Or plan B: Stand back and watch, clearing the way for those who do offer them.:jester:


 
No one has yet stated how much they charge to de-scale one

I have heard quotes for tankless heaters as high as 5900 
which did include a water softener ....
. they wont work correctly without one in these parts....


Personally , I would rather just do plan B 
clear the way for everyone else who sells them.... 

then stand back and watch the fat lady sing on dec 31st.....:laughing:


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## user2090

Master Mark said:


> No one has stated how much they charge to de-scale one
> 
> I have heard quotes as high as 5900 which included a water softener ....
> . they wont work correctly without one in these parts....
> 
> 
> Personally , I would rather just do plan B
> clear the way for everyone else who sells them....
> 
> then stand back and watch the fat lady sing.....:laughing:


I think its great of you to decide that. A person has to know their limitations, and if your content to not install them, then you are correct, it will clear the way for someone else to have that portion of the market. 

We have most plumbing outfits up here that agree with your way of thinking, and I find it to be of benefit to me, if I can start selling that type of equipment, then hopefully I will fill a niche and grow my company.

I have only quoted a handful of tankless, but I make dang sure, that the potential customer knows exactly what the score is, no hidden costs. Of course, I do not quote a tankless alone, but give alternatives. I find that when I do that the customer will pick something, and a job is done, money is made. So all in all, tankless will make me money if I install them or not. :laughing:

Who is to say that additional tax credits will not be passed? If they are, then so much for you fat lady.


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## user4

Choctaw said:


> I have a querstion.............How many plumbers actually have them in their home?


I have one.


I have installed quite a few of them over the years, price, rebates, and energy savings were not really a factor in any of them, the selling point was convenience, space, or the need for unlimited hot water. I have installed them in homes, restaurants, condos, and in food manufacturing facilities, they have multiple uses.

Selling them simply on rebates, saving money on energy bills, etc. to me is taking the wrong approach to selling them, or you just don't want to sell or install them.


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## plbgbiz

Indie said:


> ...then hopefully I will fill a niche and grow my company....
> 
> I have only quoted a handful of tankless, but I make dang sure, that the potential customer knows exactly what the score is, no hidden costs. Of course, I do not quote a tankless alone, but give alternatives. I find that when I do that the customer will pick something, and a job is done, money is made. So all in all, tankless will make me money if I install them or not...


I like the niche offering.:thumbsup: That is an important step for any new company (and some not so new also). 

As long as the continued commitment for maintenance costs are discussed ahead of time then I think it can be a great option for someone that needs an endless supply of hot water.


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## A Good Plumber

Killertoiletspider said:


> I have one.
> 
> 
> I have installed quite a few of them over the years, price, rebates, and energy savings were not really a factor in any of them, the selling point was convenience, space, or the need for unlimited hot water. I have installed them in homes, restaurants, condos, and in food manufacturing facilities, they have multiple uses.
> 
> Selling them simply on rebates, saving money on energy bills, etc. to me is taking the wrong approach to selling them, or you just don't want to sell or install them.


 

I agree with you Killer. I've installed almost 80 units over the past 5 years, starting with the one at my home. It's a Rinnai. I installed it to replace an electric tank water heater in the home and use the space for a clothes dryer. 

I have never flushed the unit, nor have I had to do any maintanance to it. I hardly even know it's there. It works like the day it was installed and has never failed to provide plenty of hot water (except on the one day we had a power outage)

I was very much against Tankless before I installed one in my home. Since then I've learned a lot about em and although I have not had one customer say anything bad, I would say their not for every situation.

I carefully explain to all my customers the advantages, disadvantages and misnomers about Tankless water heating. I've turned away the oportunity to install approx 50 more, just because their financial situation or the layout of the existing utilities didn't make the project right.

I want customers who call back because they want me to do more work, not call back to complain about something I didn't tell em about before I installed it.


----------



## PlungerJockey

Tax credits ending is not going to stop tankless water heaters from being installed. They were being installed here long before the socialist came into power and started offering cash for clunkers.


----------



## breid1903

*a g p*

i'm not poking you here. how do you get 5 years, with out cleaning? if you can go 5, can you just wear it out without ever flushing? 22 years? breid................:rockon:


----------



## user4

breid1903 said:


> i'm not poking you here. how do you get 5 years, with out cleaning? if you can go 5, can you just wear it out without ever flushing? 22 years? breid................:rockon:


I've never cleaned mine in four years, but Chicago water is naturally soft and relatively particulate free from the treatment process it goes through prior to distribution.


----------



## Master Mark

*does anyone ever flush these things???*

Hey , I know my limitations.. knock yourself out INDE
I dont want to fool with them ..... 

but still, even with this thread going on and on..and on...

I have yet to hear from anyone who claims to 

have installed them exactly how much they charge for 
\
about 2 hours of their time to de-lime one of them ???

is this some tradsecret that would possibly kill future sales

if potential customers were to look on this site????


I would say it is worth every bit of $195.00...

am I high or am I low???


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

ckoch407 said:


> One can find infinite literature/reports for or against tankless. And as was pointed out the return can be manipulated for or against the actual return as well. So I wont argue those points. But I will say that most of the ones Ive installed, the owner did not buy based on the return.(Does one buy a Ferrari based on a return?)It was more for the fact that they will never run out of hot water and will never have to replace the unit. And the wives loved the extra space that was cleared by getting rid of old tank.
> 
> As for the descaling, there are several ways to handle that.
> * Charge X amount per year as most have pointed out. (A gross waist of money for the owner indeed).
> * Install a point of use descaler (Noritz has their own or you can use any other). 1 or 2 de-scalings would pay for it.
> * Install a softener. X per year forever to descale or X one time only and have the benefit of a new softener.
> * Include the descaling in your annual maintenance plan (if you offer this service) just as you would include flushing the tank water heater.
> 
> 
> Or plan B: Stand back and watch, clearing the way for those who do offer them.:jester:


 
What state are you in


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

plbgbiz said:


> I like the niche offering.:thumbsup: That is an important step for any new company (and some not so new also).
> 
> *As long as the continued commitment for maintenance costs are discussed* ahead of time then I think it can be a great option for someone that needs an endless supply of hot water.


 


And you have licensed plumbers on here stating for the record that they aren't even doing that.


----------



## A Good Plumber

breid1903 said:


> i'm not poking you here. how do you get 5 years, with out cleaning? if you can go 5, can you just wear it out without ever flushing? 22 years? breid................:rockon:


I'm not sure why the thing works as wel as it does, but I plan to let it go till it seizes up. Really

I'm sure it's not the best thing for it but as I tell my customers who worry they may miss a cleaning, I've missed a cleaning for five years.

I don't have a softener or water conditioner and the water around here is not spring water.

For me, this is a test to see what the effects of poor service are:laughing::laughing:....Maybe I'm just too busy to work on my own plumbing:yes:

OK, call me goofy


----------



## ckoch407

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> What state are you in



Florida.


----------



## Master Mark

*Potential sales of tankless heaters........*



Master Mark said:


> Hey , I know my limitations.. knock yourself out INDE
> I dont want to fool with them .....
> 
> but still, even with this thread going on and on..and on...
> 
> I have yet to hear from anyone who claims to
> 
> have installed them exactly how much they charge for
> \
> about 2 hours of their time to de-lime one of them ???
> 
> is this some tradsecret that would possibly kill future sales
> 
> if potential customers were to look on this site????
> 
> 
> I would say it is worth every bit of $195.00...
> 
> am I high or am I low???


Still No one wants to answer this simple question..

lets say you have someone that wants a tankless water heater , and they already know about the
annual or bi annual flushing they need...

they are about to sign the contract for $$3500 for installation, and its a very easy job to do...but they look up and ask you......

does this price include isolation valves in the system ??
and how much do you usually charge to come out and de-scale my new tankless heater??...
Or is that service FREE with installation??..

this appears to be a major deal breaker

now...do you just stare at them like a deer looking into oncomming headlights??? 

or do you come up FAST with a figure to do this job for them every year????

.so....... lets play like I am a customer ....:jester:

would someone who sells these things please shoot me their price to del lime one????.

.


----------



## ckoch407

*...*

I would give the options I gave in my previous post. And I would not leave the issue to become an objection at the end by making them have to ask.
If it were an existing install and they wanted it flushed I would offer them our annual maintenance plan for under $100 a year that includes a descaling flush.




Master Mark said:


> Still No one wants to answer this simple question..
> 
> lets say you have someone that wants a tankless water heater , and they already know about the
> annual or bi annual flushing they need...
> 
> they are about to sign the contract for $$3500 for installation, and its a very easy job to do...but they look up and ask you......
> 
> does this price include isolation valves in the system ??
> and how much do you usually charge to come out and de-scale my new tankless heater??...
> Or is that service FREE with installation??..
> 
> this appears to be a major deal breaker
> 
> now...do you just stare at them like a deer looking into oncomming headlights???
> 
> or do you come up FAST with a figure to do this job for them every year????
> 
> .so....... lets play like I am a customer ....:jester:
> 
> would someone who sells these things please shoot me their price to del lime one????.
> 
> .[/


----------



## ckoch407

PS:
Of course the iso valves are included. (only a hack would install without them). 
Would you like to add any of these accessories today for an additional savings of X. (point of use descaler, whole house softener, battery backup in case of a power outage, plumbing maintenance plan, etc)? 







Master Mark said:


> Still No one wants to answer this simple question..
> 
> lets say you have someone that wants a tankless water heater , and they already know about the
> annual or bi annual flushing they need...
> 
> they are about to sign the contract for $$3500 for installation, and its a very easy job to do...but they look up and ask you......
> 
> does this price include isolation valves in the system ??
> and how much do you usually charge to come out and de-scale my new tankless heater??...
> Or is that service FREE with installation??..
> 
> this appears to be a major deal breaker
> 
> now...do you just stare at them like a deer looking into oncomming headlights???
> 
> or do you come up FAST with a figure to do this job for them every year????
> 
> .so....... lets play like I am a customer ....:jester:
> 
> would someone who sells these things please shoot me their price to del lime one????.
> 
> .


----------



## Phat Cat

Interesting thread. I don't see it as being completely cut and dry.

I do have a few questions though.

1. Could the average H.O. do this on a yearly basis without having to use the services of a plumber? 

If so, then it's not any different than recommending a customer flush their water heater once a year. Very few do it though. When we sell a water heater, we don't discuss pricing for flushing on an annual basis.

2. Is it a manufacturer recommendation, but not really a requirement?

Seems to be since several have said they have done nothing with their own tankless units in several years.

3. If you were selling a Bentley, would you point out to the customer that tune-ups are more expensive? I think tankless may fall into this category since several have agreed that cost and payback are usually not the determining factors in purchasing a tankless.

4. Since most have agreed endless hot water is the biggest selling point, why are the manufacturers trying to PUSH (very hard IMO) the GREEN factor and energy savings? I had a rep tell me point blank, the savings is based on a consumer using water the same as before the install. However, he did say most consumers change their habits regarding water usage after the install. 

5. Also, why should taxpayers be subsidizing something that is being promoted as saving energy, when in reality, the savings is minimal? Factor in the additional water usage that happens with this luxury and the overall GREEN savings is nil. There is an energy cost associated with delivering clean water and treating waste water.

All that said, if our customer wanted one, we would gladly install one. :yes:

Since we do not run out of hot water, I'll save the money and spend it on another luxury. 

Stillaround might have a clue as to where I would spend my money. :laughing:


----------



## plbgbiz

I never consider offering a tankless without the isolation valves. Given the manufacturer's persistent beating of the "MUST FLUSH" drum, I am surprised it is not a mandatory item.

Since we have never been called back to do descaling on tankless units we've installed, I have no reference point for time allowance or materials used. Maybe it is not as big of an issue as I thought.


----------



## A Good Plumber

I charge a fee of 300.00 for a flush. The actual flush is 1 hour and the cost includes local travel, flushing fluids and the use of my pump and hoses.

I also suggest the customer purchase a flush kit from me for 400.00 and that price will include the first flush and I'll show them how to do it themselves if they would like to save a little when they do the next flush.

I've found that most don't want to do it themselves cuz afterall they have enough to do, like changing the batteries in their smoke detectors:no: NOT! 

BTW...While the system is flushing, I provide a free service to check the condition of all their plumbing fixtures, faucets and valves. This usually generates another repair or replacement fee.:thumbsup:


----------



## plbgbiz

A Good Plumber said:


> BTW...While the system is flushing, I provide a free service to check the condition of all their plumbing fixtures, faucets and valves. This usually generates another repair or replacement fee.:thumbsup:


Giving great service!:thumbsup:


----------



## SlickRick

Get a room.


----------



## Master Mark

*thank you for coughing up a price*



A Good Plumber said:


> I charge a fee of 300.00 for a flush. The actual flush is 1 hour and the cost includes local travel, flushing fluids and the use of my pump and hoses.
> 
> I also suggest the customer purchase a flush kit from me for 400.00 and that price will include the first flush and I'll show them how to do it themselves if they would like to save a little when they do the next flush.
> 
> I've found that most don't want to do it themselves cuz afterall they have enough to do, like changing the batteries in their smoke detectors:no: NOT!
> 
> BTW...While the system is flushing, I provide a free service to check the condition of all their plumbing fixtures, faucets and valves. This usually generates another repair or replacement fee.:thumbsup:


Wow.....thank you.... 

 300 bucks is more salty than even I had thought it would be....... 
so you save about 80 bucks a year with a tankless, but you have to spend about 300 bucks to get it cleaned:blink::blink::blink:

then if they want to be taught how to do it themselves, you will gladly show them and also inspect their home for plumbing problems for free while it is de-scaleing..... will you do the dishes and sweep the carpet too???

except for endless hot water, could someone please explain to me exactly where the saveings is with this product??? 

 I guess I am just too stupid to understand the math here......:laughing::laughing:


----------



## Titan Plumbing

Mark I will.........You have a heater that runs for 5 mins and uses 199000 btu's and you have another heater that takes several minutes to fire and only uses 38000 btu's...........that's where the savings are. Told you the numbers can be manipulated. :laughing::laughing:


----------



## ckoch407

Choctaw said:


> Mark I will.........You have a heater that runs for 5 mins and uses 199000 btu's and you have another heater that takes several minutes to fire and only uses 38000 btu's...........that's where the savings are. Told you the numbers can be manipulated. :laughing::laughing:



Having already established through the previous posts that most buy not on conservation, I don't understand why everyone seems to be focusing on that aspect. Maybe someone can clue me in on that?

I am now curious as to just why they have an energy star rating and a tank heater does not. So based on what I do know I would like to see exactly what they do use compared to a tank type. 

A pretty common heater is a NR 98. 199 k btu is the max output based on it's full rated load of 9.8 gpm @ 35 degree rise. It's minimum btu output is 12 k btu. It has a manifold with 3 independent solenoids that open based on the demand and which automatically adjusts the manifold output pressure of the gas based on the load. It comes on only when needed and has an 84% thermal rating (the new condensing models are 93%). Most tank heaters are 60-ish% thermal efficiency rating. One comes on only when needed and the other sporadically depending on location. Most garages get pretty cold though and will make it come on mire often than a heated location. 

Somebody be a gentleman and oblige me with some good solid physics that will make the 38k btu tank more efficient than the tankless at 38k btu output in this scenario. Better yet, make it raise 9.8 gallons 35 degrees in one minute. ......


----------



## ckoch407

:clap: by selectively choosing the highest price given on the thread to flush a tankless and combining it with the worst consumer report for savings you could find and applying it to all consumers habits to prove there are no savings you have almost convinced me to dissuade all potential buyers I come across. Great case. All I need is some good physical evidence and I'm done. 
:whistling2:


Master Mark said:


> Wow.....thank you....
> 
> 300 bucks is more salty than even I had thought it would be.......
> so you save about 80 bucks a year with a tankless, but you have to spend about 300 bucks to get it cleaned:blink::blink::blink:
> 
> then if they want to be taught how to do it themselves, you will gladly show them and also inspect their home for plumbing problems for free while it is de-scaleing..... will you do the dishes and sweep the carpet too???
> 
> except for endless hot water, could someone please explain to me exactly where the saveings is with this product???
> 
> I guess I am just too stupid to understand the math here......:laughing::laughing:


----------



## Master Mark

*I hear crickets chirping*

oh.....I forgot to ask.... 

I can change out all the parts.. EVERYTHING on a 7 year old Bradford white gas defender in about 30 minutes... 
Usually charge the customer about $195..

whats the minimum you can charge just to figure out and DIAGNOSE what is wrong with a 7 year old tannkless???.

then on average.... what is the down time and how long does it normally take to get something like a gas solenoid valve for a TAKAGI??

anyone care to ballpark this??


crickets chirping.... silence......................................
.............................................................................:laughing:














been saying all this for 8 years http://weilhammerplumbing.com/houseofhorrors/


----------



## RealLivePlumber

There are tank type energy star rated water heaters. 

http://www.bradfordwhite.com/hb_energystar.asp


----------



## ckoch407

RealLivePlumber said:


> There are tank type energy star rated water heaters.
> 
> http://www.bradfordwhite.com/hb_energystar.asp



Yes there are energy star rated tank types. But not traditional tank types. Cost to purchase one of those is probably the same or more than a tankless. I know power vents are comparably priced to a tankless at my suppliers.


----------



## ckoch407

Master Mark said:


> oh.....I forgot to ask....
> 
> I can change out all the parts.. EVERYTHING on a 7 year old Bradford white gas defender in about 30 minutes...
> Usually charge the customer about $195..
> 
> whats the minimum you can charge just to figure out and DIAGNOSE what is wrong with a 7 year old tannkless???.
> 
> then on average.... what is the down time and how long does it normally take to get something like a gas solenoid valve for a TAKAGI??
> 
> anyone care to ballpark this??
> 
> 
> crickets chirping.... silence......................................
> .............................................................................:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> been saying all this for 8 years http://weilhammerplumbing.com/houseofhorrors/



Why anyone would want to change all parts on a 7 year old TANK heater is beyond me. But to each their own.

Noritz has onboard diagnostics. Just read the error code in about 5 minutes so the standard trip charge applies. Easy peezy. IF a part needs to be changed they are super simple. (I have stripped them down completely and put them back together in around a half hour as well.) Parts can be had next day for about the same as regular freight (if they are out of warranty) due to the light weight. I cant speak for Takagi as I have no experience with them. But I recently have had several Noritzs in a neighborhood that were LP units installed on a NG system. They ran for almost 4 years before anyone even noticed. Had to change out manifold (which includes the solenoids) to NG system and adjust the settings. Piece of cake after the the learning curve of the first one. Will be doing a 4th one this week. Installing plumber was not very clever. 

PS: I dont do "ball park" pricing over the phone (or internet forums). I can diagnose your problem and give you an accurate price right down to the penny so you wont have to guess if you'd like? :thumbup:


----------



## user2090

Master Mark said:


> oh.....I forgot to ask....
> 
> I can change out all the parts.. EVERYTHING on a 7 year old Bradford white gas defender in about 30 minutes...
> Usually charge the customer about $195..
> 
> whats the minimum you can charge just to figure out and DIAGNOSE what is wrong with a 7 year old tannkless???.
> 
> then on average.... what is the down time and how long does it normally take to get something like a gas solenoid valve for a TAKAGI??
> 
> anyone care to ballpark this??
> 
> 
> crickets chirping.... silence......................................
> .............................................................................:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> been saying all this for 8 years http://weilhammerplumbing.com/houseofhorrors/



Ok, we get it, you don't like tankless. Here's an idea, don't put them in. What difference does it make what it costs, or what it takes to fix them. You don't have to put them in. Why keep at it so hard, if it is not going to change your mind?


----------



## Master Mark

ckoch407 said:


> Why anyone would want to change all parts on a 7 year old TANK heater is beyond me. But to each their own.
> 
> 
> 
> PS: I dont do "ball park" pricing over the phone (or internet forums). I can diagnose your problem and give you an accurate price right down to the penny so you wont have to guess if you'd like? :thumbup:


 
people have had me rebuild 15 year old heaters before
because they were selling the house or sold the house and did not want to shell out any extra money.....

if you have recently rebuilt a couple of Nortz
 , you must have an invoice available with the final damages for the change outs.......

just wondering how ugly it got...


----------



## RealLivePlumber

ckoch407 said:


> Yes there are energy star rated tank types. But not traditional tank types. Cost to purchase one of those is probably the same or more than a tankless. I know power vents are comparably priced to a tankless at my suppliers.


 
Incorrect. 

D-4-504S*FBN(SX) (atomspheric vent, with damper.)


----------



## Protech

Solar and heat pumps can pay for themselves in 5 years........


----------



## vinpadalino

Indie said:


> Ok, I have a sceneraio for those who are oppposed to tankless.
> 
> I have a customer that is going to need a water heater any time now, due to the condition of the 40 gallon tank.
> 
> They are a younger married company with 5 kids. Their oldest is 8 years old.
> With a family of seven what would you put in for them?


What do they have gas or electric or oil?
I have 5 kids. My wife and me. Wifes grandma, and wifes sister all under my roof. We have a 50 gallon electric works fine.


----------



## vinpadalino

Protech said:


> Solar and heat pumps can pay for themselves in 5 years........


 
You wont get high temps from a heat pump. 120-125 max.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

I got a cow in my basement. 


I can get milk on demand, as much as I want.


----------



## user2090

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I got a cow in my basement.
> 
> 
> I can get milk on demand, as much as I want.


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## Airgap

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I got a cow in my basement.
> 
> 
> I can get milk on demand, as much as I want.


I hope it's a dairy cow...


----------



## user2090

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I got a cow in my basement.
> 
> 
> I can get milk on demand, as much as I want.



"It puts the lotion on its skin"


----------



## Redwood

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I got a cow in my basement.
> 
> 
> I can get milk on demand, as much as I want.



:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## Master Mark

*any maintaince???*



DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I got a cow in my basement.
> 
> 
> I can get milk on demand, as much as I want.


 
wow...you can get all the milk you want , endless hot milk

 but dont you still got 
to grab those utters and yank them every morning at 5am.
or the cow gets rather fussey with you???.:laughing::laughing:.

isnt that like scheduled maintaince???:laughing::yes:..


----------



## Phat Cat

MasterMark - I get that you don't see the value in tankless. However, if a customer really wanted one and was willing to pay for it, would you install it?


----------



## Master Mark

*no thank you*



PlumbCrazy said:


> MasterMark - I get that you don't see the value in tankless. However, if a customer really wanted one and was willing to pay for it, would you install it?


 
am I driveing my point home a little too much here..???
I am sorry if I am annoying and irritating some of you.....

no, Plumbcrazy.... I would probably let 3pk have it for a $200 finders fee.
and then its his problem to keep them happy down the road....
.

I have talked a lot of people out of them...and installed Rheem pro 75s 
I am trying to build up a happy client base, not sell them something I morally
 dont believe in like some of the big companies do in town .....

. Its sort of hard to tell someone the pay back is in 22+years......





anyway,,,,,
whats this got to do with the cow in Dunbars basement??.


----------



## Phat Cat

Master Mark said:


> anyway,,,,,
> whats this got to do with the cow in Dunbars basement??.




Back to Dunbar's cow. I find it unlikely Dunbar has a cow in his basement. Perhaps it's his mother . . . some women don't know when to stop nursing. I'm just surmising of course.


----------



## ckoch407

RealLivePlumber said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> D-4-504S*FBN(SX) (atomspheric vent, with damper.)



 I stand corrected.


----------



## ckoch407

vinpadalino said:


> You wont get high temps from a heat pump. 120-125 max.


You need more than that for domestic use?


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

master mark said:


> wow...you can get all the milk you want , endless hot milk
> 
> but dont you still got
> to grab those utters and yank them every morning at 5am.
> or the cow gets rather fussey with you???.:laughing::laughing:.
> 
> isnt that like scheduled maintaince???:laughing::yes:..


----------



## vinpadalino

ckoch407 said:


> You need more than that for domestic use?


I agree.


----------



## Master Mark

*yanking those utters*



DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> View attachment 7452












Dunbar.....got milk???

have you serviced that cow this morning???


----------



## ckoch407

vinpadalino said:


> I agree.



That was a question not a statement. My code wont allow domestic hot water past that. Even at 120 if it was not mixed would burn you pretty bad. Why would you need it hotter than that?


----------



## vinpadalino

ckoch407 said:


> That was a question not a statement. My code wont allow domestic hot water past that. Even at 120 if it was not mixed would burn you pretty bad. Why would you need it hotter than that?


Dishwasher, washer machine should be 140.


----------



## ckoch407

vinpadalino said:


> Dishwasher, washer machine should be 140.


Dishwasher has its own booster heater to raise it where it needs to be. Washing machine? Unique personal preference maybe. Code says not that hot... how do you argue with that one?


----------



## plbgbiz

IPC 2009 Section 424 states max temp for tubs and showers is 120deg F.

Code does allow for a max temp of 140 for domestic hot water per Section 501 but this does not trump the tub/shower limit.

The only code approved way to provide 140 in the kitchen is to have a tempering valve for the hot water to the tub and/or shower. Also, striving for a 140 setting is risky since 140.0001deg F would not be allowed.

An argument could also be made that the limiting device on many faucets such as Delta tub/shower faucets would not be compliant unless they actually are based on temperature. With Delta, this would be the TempAssure series. Most with hot water limit stops only will still allow for water hotter than 120 if the water heater is set too high.

There is potential for HUGE liability for the plumber that sets a water heater above 120deg F without also providing properly tempered water to the bathroom.


----------



## RealLivePlumber

ckoch407 said:


> Dishwasher has its own booster heater to raise it where it needs to be. Washing machine? Unique personal preference maybe. Code says not that hot... how do you argue with that one?


Bosch and Meile want 140 degree water to their units. We have had complaints about dishes not drying completely. They work on the dehumidification drying process. 

Bosch also recomends purging the hot water line to the kitchen faucet, before starting the dishwasher.


----------



## vinpadalino

ckoch407 said:


> Dishwasher has its own booster heater to raise it where it needs to be. Washing machine? Unique personal preference maybe. Code says not that hot... how do you argue with that one?


I'm not arguing. My dishwasher doesn't have a built in heater. When I used to do new construction we would run 2 hot lines 1 would be 120 for lavs and tubs. The other would be 140. that would feed the washer and dish washer. 
For my house I like to take a hot shower. 120 wouldn't cut it. It wouldn't be bad to pre heat and then have it dump into a nother heater.


----------



## Master Mark

*most of my customers*



vinpadalino said:


> I'm not arguing. My dishwasher doesn't have a built in heater. When I used to do new construction we would run 2 hot lines 1 would be 120 for lavs and tubs. The other would be 140. that would feed the washer and dish washer.
> For my house I like to take a hot shower. 120 wouldn't cut it. It wouldn't be bad to pre heat and then have it dump into a nother heater.


 
120 dont cut it, that is basically just a tad higher than pisswater....and most of my customers want the heater turned up to 130 --35... 

I show them how to do it themselves, and I put on the invoice that it was on low when installed it.. what they do after I leave is at their own risk ..if they have young kids, then I usually warn them to be careful if they decide to turn it up

Once winter time comes and the water comes into the house like a* ice cold slushey* at about 40 degrees, then they complain on how the heater cant keep up at a wimpy 120....
its called stratification....


of course with a tankless , 
that in-comming winter slush water really makes it work very, very hard:laughing::yes:

oopps, I did it again....


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## user2090

Master Mark said:


> 120 dont cut it, that is basically just a tad higher than pisswater....and most of my customers want the heater turned up to 130 --35...
> 
> I show them how to do it themselves, and I put on the invoice that it was on low when installed it.. what they do after I leave is at their own risk
> 
> Once winter time comes and the water comes into the house like a ice cold slushey at about 40 degrees, then they complain on how the heater cant keep up at 120....
> its called stratification....
> 
> 
> of course with a tankless ,
> that in-comming winter slush water really makes it work hard:laughing::yes:
> 
> oopps, I did it again....



I may be a bit north of you, but this slush thing must have something to do with the way the your water lines are run. Cause up here, the ground is a constant temp where our line are, therefore, the temp stays a constant 52 degrees.

In the words of Britney Spears "Oops I did it again." Boo-Yah!!!


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## ckoch407

http://www.accuratebuilding.com/services/legal/charts/hot_water_burn_scalding_graph.html

Guess you guys get out right before six seconds to avoid those third degree burns. :whistling2:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Master Mark said:


> Dunbar.....got milk???
> 
> have you serviced that cow this morning???


 
*Milked her dry till she died!*







​


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## user2090

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> *Milked her dry till she died!*
> 
> 
> View attachment 7465​



I'm calling P.E.T.A. :w00t:


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## Master Mark

*that water is cold in the winter*



Indie said:


> I may be a bit north of you, but this slush thing must have something to do with the way the your water lines are run. Cause up here, the ground is a constant temp where our line are, therefore, the temp stays a constant 52 degrees.
> 
> In the words of Britney Spears "Oops I did it again." Boo-Yah!!!


 
a lot of it comes from resivours in our area and some from ground wells that feed the city lines....

it can range from the 52 down to some damn cold water......

I have never taken a thermometer to check it , 

INDY....If you like tankless, then by all means, go for it..... 
if it keeps you in business and pays your bills , 
tell the customer whatever you want to get them to buy one..

Sorry that I am just stateing cold hard facts....









.......


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## Master Mark

*I dont see any utters.....*



DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> *Milked her dry till she died!*
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 7465​














Uhhhh...Dunbar, I dont see no utters on that cow....

what exactly have you been yanking on?????

I suggest that dont drink that milk....

I think that "cow" died happy ......:laughing::laughing:


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## plbgbiz

ckoch407 said:


> http://www.accuratebuilding.com/services/legal/charts/hot_water_burn_scalding_graph.html
> 
> Guess you guys get out right before six seconds to avoid those third degree burns. :whistling2:


Now that's a great link!:thumbsup:

I'm starting a new thread called "How Hot is Too Hot?" since this has moved beyond how we handle tankless maintenance issues.

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f31/how-hot-too-hot-10468/#post140026


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## ZL700

Tankless dying because of no tax credits, I doubt it.

Take for example a Honda Civic Base Car:

One a Sedan with 4cyl gas engine with MSRP of $15,805
with combined average mileage of 30 MPG
the other a
Hybrid Sedan 4cyl with a base price MSRP of $ 23,950
combined average mileage of 41 MPG

Difference between models of 11 MPG better with the Hybrid.

At 7% sales tax, the price difference between the two is $8,715.00 without haggling (I heard there is no budging on Hybrids so my point gets better) 

A normal driver driving 15,000 miles a year and gas at $2.75 per gallon, the annual fuel costs are:

Gas-$1,375.00
Hybrid-$1,006.00

With a savings of $369 a year, the payback for the Hybrid is 23 years, does anyone these days that would buy a hybrid keep it that long?

So you can see it makes no sense to buy a hybrid, but many do, so I don't think Tankless is about to go away, with or without tax credits.

Comparisons:
Hybrids go farther on a tank of gas, tankless delivers hot water forever. 

My question: why are plumbers so concerned about payback for their customers when its not even considered anywhere else? When is the last time you considered payback on a TV, Car, Washer, Computer, ............?


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## Protech

Wonder how that works out when gas is $5 a gallon. The day will come.


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## user2090

Master Mark said:


> a lot of it comes from resivours in our area and some from ground wells that feed the city lines....
> 
> it can range from the 52 down to some damn cold water......
> 
> I have never taken a thermometer to check it ,
> 
> INDY....If you like tankless, then by all means, go for it.....
> if it keeps you in business and pays your bills ,
> tell the customer whatever you want to get them to buy one..
> 
> Sorry that I am just stateing cold hard facts....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .......



Sorry Mark, but with few exceptions, most of your assertions have been opinion. Most of what was said has been highly speculative. Then there is the accusation of someone out right lying to sell a tankless. 

After someone explained the water from a reservoir, I can see you argument. So I will give you that.


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## ZL700

Protech said:


> Wonder how that works out when gas is $5 a gallon. The day will come.


Do the math, the savings gets only 1/2 better, as fuel cost rises, closing the % gap

30 MPG $2499
41 MPG $1829

$670 a year = 13 year payback


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## plbgbiz

Master Mark said:


> ...tell the customer whatever you want to get them to buy one...


I think you might still missing the point MM. I don't think many of us buy into all the marketing and 'green' promises made by the tankless manufacturers. For me it is no different that selling a polished brass faucet before PVD finishes were available. Not every plumbing purchase is about function and cost. Sometimes people just want it because they want it. Even if it is not what I would put in my own home, if a customer has been given the pros and cons, and believes the pros weigh heavier for them, then a beautifully installed tankless water heater they shall have.

There is a luxury to having endless hot water and gaining square footage in your home. If a client is willing to pay for that luxury, then so be it.


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## Master Mark

*I agree with you*



plbgbiz said:


> I think you might still missing the point MM. I don't think many of us buy into all the marketing and 'green' promises made by the tankless manufacturers. For me it is no different that selling a polished brass faucet before PVD finishes were available. Not every plumbing purchase is about function and cost. Sometimes people just want it because they want it. Even if it is not what I would put in my own home, if a customer has been given the pros and cons, and believes the pros weigh heavier for them, then a beautifully installed tankless water heater they shall have.
> 
> There is a luxury to having endless hot water and gaining square footage in your home. If a client is willing to pay for that luxury, then so be it.


 
if they want one , they want one... and that is fine with me
just like it states on my web site.....
as long as they go into it with eyes wide open knowing what 
they are getting themselves into , then its ok.......

http://weilhammerplumbing.com/houseofhorrors/

.I would rather be looked upon as a fool than a
snake oil salesman or a Freije saltless softener salesman...

I see the the end of the road for them
unless Obama decides to extend the tax credits....
I was around back in 1986 when they ended the solar
tax credits and I watched a lot of places fold up and blow away
I will be willing to bet $$$ it will go down about 
the same all over again this time....  
you can deny that the crap is gonna hit the fan all you want
but their is a very strong possiblity it will happen.. 

I will probably pass it on to 3pk or anyone else willing to
give me a finders fee of 150 bucks .....
then its their problem:thumbup:...


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## Titan Plumbing

ZL700 said:


> Tankless dying because of no tax credits, I doubt it.
> 
> Take for example a Honda Civic Base Car:
> 
> One a Sedan with 4cyl gas engine with MSRP of $15,805
> with combined average mileage of 30 MPG
> the other a
> Hybrid Sedan 4cyl with a base price MSRP of $ 23,950
> combined average mileage of 41 MPG
> 
> Difference between models of 11 MPG better with the Hybrid.
> 
> At 7% sales tax, the price difference between the two is $8,715.00 without haggling (I heard there is no budging on Hybrids so my point gets better)
> 
> A normal driver driving 15,000 miles a year and gas at $2.75 per gallon, the annual fuel costs are:
> 
> Gas-$1,375.00
> Hybrid-$1,006.00
> 
> With a savings of $369 a year, the payback for the Hybrid is 23 years, does anyone these days that would buy a hybrid keep it that long?
> 
> So you can see it makes no sense to buy a hybrid, but many do, so I don't think Tankless is about to go away, with or without tax credits.
> 
> Comparisons:
> Hybrids go farther on a tank of gas, tankless delivers hot water forever.
> 
> My question: why are plumbers so concerned about payback for their customers when its not even considered anywhere else? When is the last time you considered payback on a TV, Car, Washer, Computer, ............?


Manipulate those figgures however you want, they will be on the shelves before long...dusty shelves that is.

Why not buy a Jetta diesel for about the same money, maybe less. No nasty batteries to deal with at some point. Get around 45 MPG + and the thing will run for over 200K miles, plus you don't have to find a electrical outlet powered by the evil coal fired power plant.


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## plbgbiz

Master Mark said:


> I was around back in 1986 when they ended the solar
> tax credits and I watched a lot of places fold up and blow away
> I will be willing to bet $$$ it will go down about
> the same all over again this time....
> you can deny that the crap is gonna hit the fan all you want
> but their is a very strong possiblity it will happen..


I'm with you on the tax credit. The government robs money from earners to subsidize feel gooders way too much. The economics of someone wanting the luxury of endless hot water is not the issue. It costs more money to install, to maintain, and saves precious little on fuel. But. that hardly makes it snake oil.

Tankless heaters are good for what they do. Endless stream of hot water at a specified gpm at a specified rise in temperature. As was stated before nobody buys a Ferrari to save money but they buy them none the less.

It is truly sad that the whole tankless marketing scheme has been based on the fallacy of going green instead of marketing them on the merits they do have and their are many. :yes:

The scam is their corporate marketing, not the viability of the product.


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## ZL700

Tankless, Hybrid cars, solar, residential heating and cooling, home appliance, all those sales have slowed, most excitement driven by tax credits and local state rebates.

But those that want it will still buy one regardless of a plumbers stumbling block of payback.

How does a bronze finish faucet "pay you back" versus chrome?

Isn't it the customers money to spend and you to take??

Perhaps your time would be better spent standing at the beverage isle at the grocery store convincing shoppers to purchase the generic colas versus name brands, thats where the payback is. 

Australia is in the process of banning inefficient water heating appliances, by 2020, I expect to see it here too. A.O. Smith knows that, if they cant build one, might as well partner up (Takagi).


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## ZL700

Choctaw said:


> Manipulate those figgures however you want, they will be on the shelves before long...dusty shelves that is.
> 
> Why not buy a Jetta diesel for about the same money, maybe less. No nasty batteries to deal with at some point. Get around 45 MPG + and the thing will run for over 200K miles, plus you don't have to find a electrical outlet powered by the evil coal fired power plant.


(Hybrids dont plug in) 

I agree on the Diesel car however fuel costs don't always work in its favor.

The gas tankless industry is expected to be 450,000 units in 2010, approximately 10% of gas tanks sold. Yes fueled by tax credits. However given the fact that in 2007 it was 235,000 units, seeing increases every year, without tax credits most those years, I doubt the trend will stop.


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## Protech

vinpadalino said:


> I'm not arguing. My dishwasher doesn't have a built in heater. When I used to do new construction we would run 2 hot lines 1 would be 120 for lavs and tubs. The other would be 140. that would feed the washer and dish washer.
> For my house I like to take a hot shower. 120 wouldn't cut it. It wouldn't be bad to pre heat and then have it dump into a nother heater.


I'll pay pal you 100 bucks if you can stand under 120 degree shower for 10 minutes. 

it's against the law to have a spa above 106 in florida due to scolding. you actually think you can go 15 degrees more than that?!?!


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## Tommy plumber

Protech said:


> I'll pay pal you 100 bucks if you can stand under 120 degree shower for 10 minutes.
> 
> it's against the law to have a spa above 106 in florida due to scolding. you actually think you can go 15 degrees more than that?!?!


 
I agree. I have tried to hold my finger under a faucet with 120 F water flowing from it and couldn't do it. 120 F is plenty hot for DHW. Commercial is another story.


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## DownHill

ZL700 said:


> Tankless, Hybrid cars, solar, residential heating and cooling, home appliance, all those sales have slowed, most excitement driven by tax credits and local state rebates.
> 
> But those that want it will still buy one regardless of a plumbers stumbling block of payback.
> 
> *How does a bronze finish faucet "pay you back" versus chrome?*
> 
> Isn't it the customers money to spend and you to take??
> 
> Perhaps your time would be better spent standing at the beverage isle at the grocery store convincing shoppers to purchase the generic colas versus name brands, thats where the payback is.
> 
> Australia is in the process of banning inefficient water heating appliances, by 2020, I expect to see it here too. A.O. Smith knows that, if they cant build one, might as well partner up (Takagi).


I've put in the high end faucets and the car wash showers that don't pay anyone back on their investment. That is not necessarily a good comparison to the tankless industry because it is one of the sales tools promoted by all of the tankless manufacturers whether true or not. 

So it is something that is forced to be addressed in each potential tankless situation whereas a multi-valve Dornbracht shower system does not as there is no savings promoted. 

The issue that arises is when a customer asks a trained, informed, and ethical plumber their opinion about tanks & tankless.


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## Titan Plumbing

ZL700 said:


> (Hybrids dont plug in)
> 
> I agree on the Diesel car however fuel costs don't always work in its favor.
> 
> The gas tankless industry is expected to be 450,000 units in 2010, approximately 10% of gas tanks sold. Yes fueled by tax credits. However given the fact that in 2007 it was 235,000 units, seeing increases every year, without tax credits most those years, I doubt the trend will stop.


My hybrid does.......it's a Powerstroke. :whistling2:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

You should of never showed us your truck Choctaw





 


Hey do they miss me over there at the forums? 


I haven't felt spicy enough to come back, and HATE. :whistling2:


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## Titan Plumbing

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> You should of never showed us your truck Choctaw
> 
> YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey do they miss me over there at the forums?
> 
> 
> I haven't felt spicy enough to come back, and HATE. :whistling2:


Yeah we miss you, come back and give'em hell. They need a little 'tude!


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Choctaw said:


> Yeah we miss you, come back and give'em hell. They need a little 'tude!


 

Ahh I guess I could...but why should I be a cheerleader when I'm refusing to shave my legs at this point. 


Trust me; I got rid of a ticking time bomb when it came to expenses forseen in my immediate future.


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## ZL700

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Ahh I guess I could...but why should I be a cheerleader when I'm refusing to shave my legs at this point.
> 
> 
> Trust me; I got rid of a ticking time bomb when it came to expenses forseen in my immediate future.


Got rid of the wife?


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## ckoch407

Hmmm. That might make sense if all of the faucet/fixture manufacturers were not promoting almost every offering in their lineup as being "green" and saving money by saving water..... Just because it's a 1.6 gpf or 2.2 gpm set. Have these not been the standards for years now? Yet they are used as a marketing tool by the makers to this day. So, to all of you dinosaurs who refuse to accept change, do you refuse to install a brand because of these water and money savings claims? :whistling2:






DownHill said:


> I've put in the high end faucets and the car wash showers that don't pay anyone back on their investment. That is not necessarily a good comparison to the tankless industry because it is one of the sales tools promoted by all of the tankless manufacturers whether true or not.
> 
> So it is something that is forced to be addressed in each potential tankless situation whereas a multi-valve Dornbracht shower system does not as there is no savings promoted.
> 
> The issue that arises is when a customer asks a trained, informed, and ethical plumber their opinion about tanks & tankless.


----------



## DownHill

ckoch407 said:


> Hmmm. That might make sense if all of the faucet/fixture manufacturers were not promoting almost every offering in their lineup as being "green" and saving money by saving water..... Just because it's a 1.6 gpf or 2.2 gpm set. Have these not been the standards for years now? Yet they are used as a marketing tool by the makers to this day. So, to all of you dinosaurs who refuse to accept change, do you refuse to install a brand because of these water and money savings claims? :whistling2:


Don't know if I should be classified as a dinosaur or not. I've installed tank and tankless. I know the benefits & drawbacks to each for each individual situation, present them to the customer in an unbiased manner, (I think. Some subconscious opinions will always drift in with all of us.) and let them make an informed decision. Most choose tank. Some choose tankless. 

I totally forgot about the B.S. "Green Faucet" promotions. Thanks. 

P.S. I'll install almost anything that's safe and approved. I'll pimp the tankless with Diamonds if that's what you want.


----------



## ckoch407

vinpadalino said:


> I'm not arguing. My dishwasher doesn't have a built in heater. When I used to do new construction we would run 2 hot lines 1 would be 120 for lavs and tubs. The other would be 140. that would feed the washer and dish washer.
> For my house I like to take a hot shower. 120 wouldn't cut it. It wouldn't be bad to pre heat and then have it dump into a nother heater.





Protech said:


> I'll pay pal you 100 bucks if you can stand under 120 degree shower for 10 minutes.
> 
> it's against the law to have a spa above 106 in florida due to scolding. you actually think you can go 15 degrees more than that?!?!


I got 100 ohn it and am giving 100:1 says he can't do it. :shifty:


----------



## ckoch407

DownHill said:


> Don't know if I should be classified as a dinosaur or not. I've installed tank and tankless. I know the benefits & drawbacks to each for each individual situation, present them to the customer in an unbiased manner, (I think. Some subconscious opinions will always drift in with all of us.) and let them make an informed decision. Most choose tank. Some choose tankless.
> 
> I totally forgot about the B.S. "Green Faucet" promotions. Thanks.
> 
> P.S. I'll install almost anything that's safe and approved. I'll pimp the tankless with Diamonds if that's what you want.


That's what I'm talkin bout! This is America after all.... Give the people what they want. :yes: :thumbup:


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## Epox

Ive installed a few tankless, so not a expert on them by any stretch. I do know that most who have inquired on them seem to want the cake and eat it too in that they still want recirc systems for that far off bathroom. In my mind a tankless means just that. Isnt having a tank for them reverting back to the old school models? And I dont get how you would recirc them anyway. Our New Mexico water laughs at softeners, copper, or brass fittings. So I'm not sure of all the buildup as mentioned earlier in this thread. Last but not least the sensors, limits etc. But in all fairness the costumers I know that have them love them.:yes:


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## ckoch407

mpsllc said:


> Ive installed a few tankless, so not a expert on them by any stretch. I do know that most who have inquired on them seem to want the cake and eat it too in that they still want recirc systems for that far off bathroom. In my mind a tankless means just that. Isnt having a tank for them reverting back to the old school models? And I dont get how you would recirc them anyway. Our New Mexico water laughs at softeners, copper, or brass fittings. So I'm not sure of all the buildup as mentioned earlier in this thread. Last but not least the sensors, limits etc. But in all fairness the costumers I know that have them love them.:yes:


It is not necessary to use a tank to recirc them. There is a cave man simple and far less expensive way to do it. I won't indulge that for DIYers to stumble across but will tell all in the chat room for those interested. You will wonder why you didn't think of it yourself.


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## skoronesa

I just tell customers to go with a tank style, much more betterer.


----------

