# What do you charge



## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

I was just in this argument with my wife she thinks I don't charge enough on service calls and I know bigger cities will have higher pricing. My standard charge for a service call is 65 to go and then 50 an hr after if I change a wh it is 75 minimum and if I have to go run my sewer camera it is 145 an hr. I also live in a small town there are roughly 12-1400 people and 5 plumbing companies the thing I tell her is I'm really busy and get a lot of calls where I have talked to other plumbers around and they all wishing they had work but they are also all higher priced than me my thought is I would rather have a lot of work at a reasonable price then sit at home get a call a month and over price it and wonder if I will have any more work. We are struggling to get by but we are making it so is my thought process wrong or am I right to be a little cheaper and still make decent money and get all the work I want.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Ericw said:


> I was just in this argument with my wife she thinks I don't charge enough on service calls and I know bigger cities will have higher pricing. My standard charge for a service call is 65 to go and then 50 an hr after if I change a wh it is 75 minimum and if I have to go run my sewer camera it is 145 an hr. I also live in a small town there are roughly 12-1400 people and 5 plumbing companies the thing I tell her is *I'm really busy and get a lot of calls* where I have talked to other plumbers around and they all wishing they had work but they are also all higher priced than me my thought is I would rather have a lot of work at a reasonable price then sit at home get a call a month and over price it and wonder if I will have any more work. *We are struggling to get by* but we are making it so is my thought process wrong or am I right to be a little cheaper and still make decent money and get all the work I want.


Well it's obvious from your post that the volume of your calls isn't your problem, yet you are still struggling to get by. If the work is there and you still aren't making a profit, you need to raise your rates. I would personally rather sit home and try to find customers that will pay what I'm WORTH than work for peanuts.


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## Plumber3653 (May 5, 2010)

Your rates seem reasonable for you and for the customer. If you need to start charging $5 or $10 more per hour then do so. Costs are always on the rise. A fair cost of living increase is feared by most plumbers, believing that customers will be upset. Show that you are worth every penny through your workmanship. It wouldn't hurt to consult a financial planner or accountant who could tell you what you truly need to charge your customers for daily operational costs and profit. Could be information that you really need to get, but beware...most cost analysis will show that you are charging about 1/2 or 1/3 of what you should to be profitable as well as cover all of your expenses. Info that might give your wife the upper hand in the discussion.


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

RW Plumbing said:


> Well it's obvious from your post that the volume of your calls isn't your problem, yet you are still struggling to get by. If the work is there and you still aren't making a profit, you need to raise your rates. I would personally rather sit home and try to find customers that will pay what I'm WORTH than work for peanuts.


I'm about 15 dollars cheaper on my total rate I mean I could raise my rate but 60 an hr is pretty good money the reason we struggling is she is being bounced from one place to another and she just not making g money she was so I feel as I give a great service at a great price and proud to not screw people


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

make it to the business lounge on this forum, and i will give you a couple of pointers. My only thing I can say publicly, and with no remorse is that cheap work only brings in more cheap work, and cheap work leads to cheap results.


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> make it to the business lounge on this forum, and i will give you a couple of pointers. My only thing I can say publicly, and with no remorse is that cheap work only brings in more cheap work, and cheap work leads to cheap results.


Do you think 60 an hr is cheap work I mean average worker here makes 8.50 an hr now this rate is only me if I have someone with me I charge 20 more an hr. For them and pay them 10 so am I off here I think its fine but she sees what my friend is getting in a much bigger city and thinks I should get the same


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Ericw said:


> Do you think 60 an hr is cheap work I mean average worker here makes 8.50 an hr now this rate is only me if I have someone with me I charge 20 more an hr. For them and pay them 10 so am I off here I think its fine but she sees what my friend is getting in a much bigger city and thinks I should get the same



have you calculated your break even? that will tell you what you should be charging. If you see you are not making enough you either have to raise your prices or cut costs.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Ericw said:


> I was just in this argument with my wife she thinks I don't charge enough on service calls and I know bigger cities will have higher pricing. My standard charge for a service call is 65 to go and then 50 an hr after if I change a wh it is 75 minimum and if I have to go run my sewer camera it is 145 an hr. I also live in a small town there are roughly 12-1400 people and 5 plumbing companies the thing I tell her is I'm really busy and get a lot of calls where I have talked to other plumbers around and they all wishing they had work but they are also all higher priced than me my thought is I would rather have a lot of work at a reasonable price then sit at home get a call a month and over price it and wonder if I will have any more work. We are struggling to get by but we are making it so is my thought process wrong or am I right to be a little cheaper and still make decent money and get all the work I want.


50 per hr w/75 min on a wh means you are changing wh in 1.5 hrs which means you are using shark bites or flexies and are not installing txt. All this means that the quality of your work is poor (imo). You may not be screwing your customers but they are giving you a royal reaming daily. I'm pretty certain you are not properly insured and I doubt you are paying any taxes. A successful plumber/plumbing does not require the wifey to do anything to produce income for the family unless of course she is willing to work for the business. You say you are struggling and at those rates, and I don't care what part of the country you are in or how rural it is, what that means is that you are 1 crisis from the abyss. Blow a tranny or get sick for more than a week and you are done. I'd like to know how you even came to own a sewer camera. I know this is a little harsh but it sounds like you have no clue. Let me guess, when you decided to "go into business" you called around to your competitors (or had the wifey do it since they probably all know you) to see what they charged and decided to undercut them so you could get some work. WAKE UP!!! All you are getting is poverty.


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## Plumber3653 (May 5, 2010)

Amen, Rockstar. Eric, I have to ask this. If you charged $70 an hour and still gave the outstanding service then how would you be screwing people? You need to value yourself at any price, whether it's $45 or $90 an hour. A plumber can charge $35 an hour and still be screwing people through shoddy work, cheap materials and unnecessary work. If you do good work, then don't worry...you're not screwing anybody. I don't own my own business, but I believe my advice is sound. I just hate to hear of good plumbers worrying about "screwing people" while bad plumbers do it daily without remorse.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

I read your profile where it says "residential plumber". Of course anybody can claim anything. Fess up now, you are not a certified, licensed plumber are you? Dabble in a little carpentry, painting, electrical, do you? What kind of lawn equipment do you use?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

RS, right on :thumbsup:

You have to charge whatever it takes to pay the overhead plus a profit or there is no point in being in business. We are flat rate but the labor charge if you sort it out is $ 147.50


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

smellslike$tome said:


> 50 per hr w/75 min on a wh means you are changing wh in 1.5 hrs which means you are using shark bites or flexies and are not installing txt. All this means that the quality of your work is poor (imo). You may not be screwing your customers but they are giving you a royal reaming daily. I'm pretty certain you are not properly insured and I doubt you are paying any taxes. A successful plumber/plumbing does not require the wifey to do anything to produce income for the family unless of course she is willing to work for the business. You say you are struggling and at those rates, and I don't care what part of the country you are in or how rural it is, what that means is that you are 1 crisis from the abyss. Blow a tranny or get sick for more than a week and you are done. I'd like to know how you even came to own a sewer camera. I know this is a little harsh but it sounds like you have no clue. Let me guess, when you decided to "go into business" you called around to your competitors (or had the wifey do it since they probably all know you) to see what they charged and decided to undercut them so you could get some work. WAKE UP!!! All you are getting is poverty.


Well for your info I am covered by my dad I work as partners with him he takes care of insurance and everything else its the deal we have he lets me go out on my own in the evenings and do service work after my regular time with him is up and we split and bought a camera jetter and auger together sorry we didn't all get silver spoons handed to us like you and if it takes u more than an hr and half to change a wh then your screwing the customer most are electric here and almost all are cpvc so why should it take longer


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## Plumber3653 (May 5, 2010)

$75 minimum per hour, not $75 for a 1.5 hour install is what I got from it.Please take into consideration that he is asking advice and having a tough time mixing business and marriage. His questions are valid and by trying to humiliate a man when he's already down is a low blow.


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

smellslike$tome said:


> I read your profile where it says "residential plumber". Of course anybody can claim anything. Fess up now, you are not a certified, licensed plumber are you? Dabble in a little carpentry, painting, electrical, do you? What kind of lawn equipment do you use?


Company name is west electric and plumbing I have never had to advertise and always had plenty of work just because I do electric and plumbing doesn't mean I'm not a plumber yes we do things different here there is rarely ever any copper ran and most people don't even know there is such thing as copper dwv but that doesn't mean I am any less of a plumber than any of you
We are all in this trade no matter how we do it


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## Plumber3653 (May 5, 2010)

smellslike$tome said:


> I read your profile where it says "residential plumber". Of course anybody can claim anything. Fess up now, you are not a certified, licensed plumber are you? Dabble in a little carpentry, painting, electrical, do you? What kind of lawn equipment do you use?


Entered plumbing Jan. 1999 by "accident". It was a supposed to be a temporary job.How did you find PlumbingZone.com?notified by two different contractortalk forum membersWhat is your Plumbing related field/trade:residential service plumber, though I've done almost everything at one time or another.LocationBirmingham, ALInterestsI think I used to love to fish but it's been so long that I can't rememberOccupationPlumbing problem solver. Plumbing wish fulfiller.Yup...anybody can say anything. You are correct.
Don't see where it says "Certified" or "Registered" anywhere...does Birmingham have a licensing board or a plumbing school?


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Ericw said:


> Well for your info I am covered by my dad I work as partners with him he takes care of insurance and everything else its the deal we have he lets me go out on my own in the evenings and do service work after my regular time with him is up and we split and bought a camera jetter and auger together sorry we didn't all get silver spoons handed to us like you and if it takes u more than an hr and half to change a wh then your screwing the customer most are electric here and almost all are cpvc so why should it take longer


Ok so you are not in business you are simply "side jobbing" under Daddy's license. That doesn't make you legitimate by any means it just means that Daddy is picking up all the overhead. Did you pay cash for your half of the equipment or is Daddy's name on the note?

As for silver spoon, not sure where you could have gotten that idea but I started with nothing but a Chevy 1500, my hand tools, and a sawzall. I didn't even have a drill, no client base, and sure as hell no Daddy or anybody else to fall back on. I was however, certified by my state as a licensed, competent, master plumber. Do what you want, I don't care.


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

Look I'm 32 with a son that turned 3 today my dad doesn't wanna do this much longer so I wanna make sure that I got things in order when he does decide to hang it up if you wanna help I would love advice because most of you have been doing this a long time but if all you wanna do is belittle me stay outa my threads thank you


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## Plumber3653 (May 5, 2010)

smellslikes*tome, I don't see how you are legitimate either. What do you have that make you any more of a legitimate plumber than anybody else in this forum. Do you have a license or education? I'll tell you what you DO have...a small and tormented ego that somehow gets it's rise from beating up on other people. Are you as useless to the public when you provide service as you are to this forum? Really. Are you?


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Plumber3653 said:


> Entered plumbing Jan. 1999 by "accident". It was a supposed to be a temporary job.How did you find PlumbingZone.com?notified by two different contractortalk forum membersWhat is your Plumbing related field/trade:residential service plumber, though I've done almost everything at one time or another.LocationBirmingham, ALInterestsI think I used to love to fish but it's been so long that I can't rememberOccupationPlumbing problem solver. Plumbing wish fulfiller.Yup...anybody can say anything. You are correct.
> Don't see where it says "Certified" or "Registered" anywhere...does Birmingham have a licensing board or a plumbing school?


State of Alabama Plumbers and Gasfitters Examining Board.

Yes my name is on the rolls as a certified Master Plumber and Master Gas Fitter, so what is your point?


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

smellslike$tome said:


> Ok so you are not in business you are simply "side jobbing" under Daddy's license. That doesn't make you legitimate by any means it just means that Daddy is picking up all the overhead. Did you pay cash for your half of the equipment or is Daddy's name on the note?
> 
> As for silver spoon, not sure where you could have gotten that idea but I started with nothing but a Chevy 1500, my hand tools, and a sawzall. I didn't even have a drill, no client base, and sure as hell no Daddy or anybody else to fall back on. I was however, certified by my state as a licensed, competent, master plumber. Do what you want, I don't care.


Yes I paid cash and is it a bad thing to side job on daddy's insurance I have my own licence when he tells me to do that


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

All overhead comes out of what we do during the day anything we do at night is different but I don't know that everything doesn't bread to be overhauled I just wanna get as far ahead before I am the one who is 100% in charge as I can be


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## Plumber3653 (May 5, 2010)

My point is: You act very prideful while talking down to others. You attack their abilities when they are already showing weakness. You humiliate less knowledgeable people to feed your ego and provided no useful information with regard to the question, but you claim "competence" as one of your state-recognized attributes. If you are any representation of what a "master plumber" is from Alabama, then you are a shameful one and I hope others are also shamed by how you behave.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Ericw said:


> Look I'm 32 with a son that turned 3 today my dad doesn't wanna do this much longer so I wanna make sure that I got things in order when he does decide to hang it up if you wanna help I would love advice because most of you have been doing this a long time but if all you wanna do is belittle me stay outa my threads thank you


I know you don't see it this way right now but actually I am trying to help you. Probably half the people on this board started out in similar fashion, myself included, well, minus the Daddy part.

I only wish that someone had said the things to me that I am saying to you. It would have saved me several years of beating my head against the wall.

You are priced grossly too low and I don't even have to see your books (if you even keep any) to know that. Fuel costs more or less the same where you are as it does where I am, so does a gallon of milk. 

If you want to side job with Daddy's blessing, fine, just don't present yourself as a business owner because you're not. If you want to be in business for yourself then do it right and quit cutting the throat of legitimate plumbing companies who do everything they are supposed to do.

As for the water heater, we live in different worlds. I'll give you my public apology if you can change out a simple 40 gal ng (I know you said your mostly electric but my world is virtually entirely gas). Install must include type L copper pipe (cut, clean, and ream every pipe end and clean every fitting I don't care if it's brand new out of the box), 2 gallon thermal expansion tank properly charged to normal house pressure, 3/4" ball valve, reuse gas supply as long as gas stop meets current code. We'll assume it's in an easily accessible garage w/no need of a pan and t&p discharges directly to the floor, load the old tank on to the truck. One hour and thirty minutes from the time you park your truck to the time you drive off.

No shark bites and no flexes.


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

Plumber3653 said:


> My point is: You act very prideful while talking down to others. You attack their abilities when they are already showing weakness. You humiliate less knowledgeable people to feed your ego and provided no useful information with regard to the question, but you claim "competence" as one of your state-recognized attributes. If you are any representation of what a "master plumber" is from Alabama, then you are a shameful one and I hope others are also shamed by how you behave.


Thank you not everyone will stand up for another those days are dead people just don't respect others like they should so thank you I thought it was a legitimate question I really just wanted to know the difference in small town pricing and bigger cities


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Anything you do at night is NOT overhead? Please explain that part to me, as for that idiotic question was not on my state certified licensing exam. (That i passed on the first test) :blink:


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

I'm not cutting there throats there are others that are doing its cheaper I pay all my taxes split everything down center right now with dad I can tell you this we charge the exact same thing during the day when we are doing for business this is where I got pricing is it such a bad thing to be able to do it cheaper than someone else and do as good or better


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Plumber3653 said:


> My point is: You act very prideful while talking down to others. You attack their abilities when they are already showing weakness. You humiliate less knowledgeable people to feed your ego and provided no useful information with regard to the question, but you claim "competence" as one of your state-recognized attributes. If you are any representation of what a "master plumber" is from Alabama, then you are a shameful one and I hope others are also shamed by how you behave.


Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about.

I'm sick of low balling, side jobbers and handy hacks corrupting the industry. If you want to play, play by the rules otherwise your just a thief.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Man, you are so backwards in your pricing that you really just need to read and listen to what the business owners here are saying. I wasn't the greatest in pricing either but you have to at least have a budget. Do you know what your accounting costs are? What about vehicles and tools? If you do everything properly you have way more overhead than what you're charging for.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Ericw said:


> I'm not cutting there throats there are others that are doing its cheaper I pay all my taxes split everything down center right now with dad I can tell you this we charge the exact same thing during the day when we are doing for business this is where I got pricing is it such a bad thing to be able to do it cheaper than someone else and do as good or better


Did you do a break even to see what you need to charge per hour?


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Ericw said:


> Company name is west electric and plumbing I have never had to advertise and always had plenty of work just because I do electric and plumbing doesn't mean I'm not a plumber yes we do things different here there is rarely ever any copper ran and most people don't even know there is such thing as copper dwv but that doesn't mean I am any less of a plumber than any of you
> We are all in this trade no matter how we do it


So your a master electrician or master plumber?


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

RW Plumbing said:


> Man, you are so backwards in your pricing that you really just need to read and listen to what the business owners here are saying. I wasn't the greatest in pricing either but you have to at least have a budget. Do you know what your accounting costs are? What about vehicles and tools? If you do everything properly you have way more overhead than what you're charging for.


Ok here is my next question we are doing 1/3 less new construction right now so it is even harder when the most of your money is coming from service work and not new where the bread and butter was I'm just really confused on whether I should raise rates and leave new homes the same or what


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Ericw said:


> Do you think 60 an hr is cheap work I mean average worker here makes 8.50 an hr now this rate is only me if I have someone with me I charge 20 more an hr. For them and pay them 10 so am I off here I think its fine but she sees what my friend is getting in a much bigger city and thinks I should get the same


you remind me of me young gasshopper. Basing your rates on the "side" based on what you or others you know make an HR. Business is not based on what the employees make an hr. It is based on what it takes to keep that employee employed by the hour. You know dam well what your "daddy" charges an hr. If he didn't charge that per hour, daddy would not be in business would he? I think some of your customers, may be "daddy's" customers, and you may be looking for a reason to justify your cheapness. But I hate to tell you brothah, you are not going to find that reason in this forum, no way Jose' .


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

Plumber Jim said:


> So your a master electrician or master plumber?


Never said that didn't know I needed to be a master plumber to be on this forum


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

They are both our customers and he don't wanna work late so he lets me he gave me the rate sorry I didn't tell that sooner but he wants nothing to do wit work after 5 so I do it


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Ericw said:


> Never said that didn't know I needed to be a master plumber to be on this forum


No, I didn't mean that. I just saw you had electric and plumbing in your name. I assumed you had to be a licensed master to run a business either plumbing or electrical. In my state you have to hold a masters license in order to run a plumbing or electrical business. What state do you work in?


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Ericw said:


> Never said that didn't know I needed to be a master plumber to be on this forum


Are you a LICENSED plumber????? This forum is for PROFESSIONAL plumbers, not someone with a pipe wrench that watched bob vila on this old house a few times. A professional is someone that is properly accredited to perform the task they are claiming to do. If you don't have a proper license you don't belong here.

Hey guys, my son just got a my first doctor set. He's a doctor now, anyone need an operation?


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

I respect all you guys who are master plumbers and wish I could but I could never be that I am good at what I do but I have a small range most on here could plumb circle round me and I don't care to admit that and hope I can learn from you here


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Ericw said:


> They are both our customers and he don't wanna work late so he lets me he gave me the rate sorry I didn't tell that sooner but he wants nothing to do wit work after 5 so I do it



:laughing:, dude you are crazy. Have your wife call your competitors after 5pm, and see what they are charging for that kinda work. Blind leading the Blind is what i am reading in this thread.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Ericw said:


> I respect all you guys who are master plumbers and wish I could but I could never be that I am good at what I do but I have a small range most on here could plumb circle round me and I don't care to admit that and hope I can learn from you here


Do you have a license????? If not I hope the mods read this and get the BAN hammer out.


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

In TN you need a license not a master and yes I have a plumbing LLC and an electrical LLC which are the requirements where I live told you guys we live in different worlds


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Ericw said:


> I'm not cutting there throats there are others that are doing its cheaper I pay all my taxes split everything down center right now with dad I can tell you this we charge the exact same thing during the day when we are doing for business this is where I got pricing is it such a bad thing to be able to do it cheaper than someone else and do as good or better


Actually it's good that you have family that is able and willing to help. That is not a bad thing. 

What plumbing code are you under? I'm under IPC so I don't know the UPC. IPC requires a means of controlling thermal expansion which means installation of a thermal expansion tank along with every water heater since 2003 unless your ok with water escaping the water distribution system in which case it's possible you could use some other device. It's pretty clear though that a txt is the best way to deal with thermal expansion. Installing a thermal expansion tank in cpvc water distribution system is a ridiculous notion that needs no explanation. Maybe UPC does not require this, I don't know. If it doesn't and you are in fact under UPC then no worries. If it does or if you are under IPC and either not doing it or installing into cpvc then you are not giving your customers a proper or quality installation. 

So "cheaper than someone else and do as good or better" is a meaningless statement if you are not doing it in a way that satisfies the plumbing code and doesn't violate common sense.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

I looked at your intro and it says you have been plumbing for 14 years. Man, If i was you I would go test for you masters license. I am not busting your chops just curious, are you running your business with a different name and number from your dad? Or is this just your dad's company and you are taking the night calls for him?


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## beavercreekhc (Mar 15, 2010)

well the only advice i can give you that i received recently was would you rather do 5 jobs for $500 or 4 jobs for $500.
like others have been saying.. the best thing you can do is sit down and figure out your expenses to keep the business going. only you know what you should be charging. even a small company can have a good amount of overhead. if you say your a professional doing a professional job than advertise it and charge for it. don't wait too long or your customers may get use to your prices and than you'll be screwed. so now is the time to do it and see what happens. make yourself standout from the other companies in town and who cares if your the highest price one.. let them know why you're getting the business and they're not


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

Truth be known codes just started being enforced here about 3 wks ago there has been nothing said about expansion tanks and my rates are based on labor only they supply the parts unless its something I have I am just now learning code but I have been plumbing for 14 yrs


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

I'm betting the "service" work started somewhere around November or December 2009. 

More new con looking to "service work" to save their bacon having utterly no clue that it is a completely different world.


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

beavercreekhc said:


> well the only advice i can give you that i received recently was would you rather do 5 jobs for $500 or 4 jobs for $500.
> like others have been saying.. the best thing you can do is sit down and figure out your expenses to keep the business going. only you know what you should be charging. even a small company can have a good amount of overhead. if you say your a professional doing a professional job than advertise it and charge for it. don't wait too long or your customers may get use to your prices and than you'll be screwed. so now is the time to do it and see what happens. make yourself standout from the other companies in town and who cares if your the highest price one.. let them know why you're getting the business and they're not


Thanks we have never advertised and never needed to we always had plenty of work but things are slow now so were having to try to get more service work


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Ericw said:


> Truth be known codes just started being enforced here about 3 wks ago there has been nothing said about expansion tanks and my rates are based on labor only they supply the parts unless its something I have I am just now learning code but I have been plumbing for 14 yrs


Sorry dude, you are not a plumber.


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

smellslike$tome said:


> I'm betting the "service" work started somewhere around November or December 2009.
> 
> More new con looking to "service work" to save their bacon having utterly no clue that it is a completely different world.


Been doing service work since I been partners just always had more new con now its completely opposite


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Ericw said:


> In TN you need a license not a master and yes I have a plumbing LLC and an electrical LLC which are the requirements where I live told you guys we live in different worlds


so you have 2 companies? the limited liability company for plumber and another for electrical? do you hold an electrical license?



Ericw said:


> Truth be known codes just started being enforced here about 3 wks ago there has been nothing said about expansion tanks and my rates are based on labor only they supply the parts unless its something I have I am just now learning code but I have been plumbing for 14 yrs


Ok, so you have a plumbing license and you don't know the plumbing code? how did you manager to get a license without knowing your code? maybe I just don't know much about Tennessee. they test use to make sure we know our trade before they hand us a license.


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

I be willing to bet 1000 that the inspector here knows nothing about expansion tanks either


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Ericw said:


> Truth be known codes just started being enforced here about 3 wks ago there has been nothing said about expansion tanks and my rates are based on labor only they supply the parts unless its something I have I am just now learning code but I have been plumbing for 14 yrs


they just started enforcing codes 3 weeks ago?? you mean they weren't inspecting your new construction jobs?? OMG.


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

Yes I hold electrical license and yes they tested us but that doesn't mean I k ow code front to back I know you guys here are plumbers that I will never be but nowhere in this forum did I read if your not a master plumber u can't post here


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

http://tn.gov/commerce/boards/contractors/plumber.shtml

Did they not have Code questions on their exam? By LLC did you actually mean LLP? If no code questions, then what did they ask?


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

Plumber Jim said:


> they just started enforcing codes 3 weeks ago?? you mean they weren't inspecting your new construction jobs?? OMG.


No we are way behind the rest of the world where I live. Now they have figured out how much money they been losing in permits and now starting used to you could go pay 75 dollars and build anywhere without a builders license or anything the only thing inspected was electric


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Ericw said:


> Yes I hold electrical license and yes they tested us but that doesn't mean I k ow code front to back I know you guys here are plumbers that I will never be but nowhere in this forum did I read if your not a master plumber u can't post here


nobody said you have to be a master plumber to post here. I was just asking. I don't know the code book front to back either. I know the code with respect to what i am doing and if i don't know something i look at the code book in my truck. as far as the expansion tank it is only required in a closed system. you would have to know if the house you are working in has a check valve on the meter or a prv that doesn't have a thermal bypass.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Ericw said:


> No we are way behind the rest of the world where I live. Now they have figured out how much money they been losing in permits and now starting used to you could go pay 75 dollars and build anywhere without a builders license or anything the only thing inspected was electric


wow, the only thing they inspected was the electrical? the rest was not looked at? man i am glad i don't live there. no telling what is going on behind alot of them walls.


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

ckoch407 said:


> http://tn.gov/commerce/boards/contractors/plumber.shtml
> 
> Did they not have Code questions on their exam? By LLC did you actually mean LLP? If no code questions, then what did they ask?


We were grandfathered in if you had been in business for more than 10 yrs plumbing you didn't have to take exam


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## bkplumber (Jan 24, 2011)

We have to keep a code book in our truck at all times.


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

Plumber Jim said:


> nobody said you have to be a master plumber to post here. I was just asking. I don't know the code book front to back either. I know the code with respect to what i am doing and if i don't know something i look at the code book in my truck. as far as the expansion tank it is only required in a closed system. you would have to know if the house you are working in has a check valve on the meter or a prv that doesn't have a thermal bypass.


All meters here are required to have check valve installed by water company


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Which code?


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Ericw said:


> All meters here are required to have check valve installed by water company


then you need an expansion tank or other approved device.


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

smellslike$tome said:


> Which code?


We under ipc


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

ckoch407 said:


> http://tn.gov/commerce/boards/contractors/plumber.shtml
> 
> Did they not have Code questions on their exam? By LLC did you actually mean LLP? If no code questions, then what did they ask?



OMg I looked at that link. If i understood it correctly you only need 1 year of plumbing experience to start your own plumbing company as long as you don't do a job over $25k that is just scary.


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

Plumber Jim said:


> OMg I looked at that link. If i understood it correctly you only need 1 year of plumbing experience to start your own plumbing company as long as you don't do a job over $25k that is just scary.


Different worlds


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Ericw said:


> Different worlds


The thing is, I have seen what people do when they don't have things inspected and it is down right scary. If I lived there i would have to have a house built and inspect it myself, to make sure it was safe.  Not picking on you. I'm just shocked. I thought this stuff was wiped out in places like the USA and only went on in third world countries. I could see why people don't want to pay much. because you can start a plumbing company with less experience than a handy hack here has.


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## 130 PLUMBER (Oct 22, 2009)

After reading this post, all i can say is, im so proud of myself for the long "HARD" journey that i took back in the 90's when i did a hole 2 years as a sewer tech and 5 years as a plumbing apprentice:yes:


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## smoldrn (Oct 4, 2010)

Around here There's not even a journeyman's test. I believe all they have to do is show 2 yrs experience to take a Master's exam. Big difference from where I learned my trade in Fl. Use to be 4yrs apprentice, pass journeyman's exam, then 2 yrs working under MP before you took that test.


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> make it to the business lounge on this forum, and i will give you a couple of pointers. My only thing I can say publicly, and with no remorse is that cheap work only brings in more cheap work, and cheap work leads to cheap results.


What is this business forum I keep hearing about :detective:


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Remind me never to buy a home in that part of TN.


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## Plumber3653 (May 5, 2010)

I belong to several other forums and have encountered 'professional' plumbers who still don't pressurize their thermal expansion tanks.Not everybody is required to have certification all across the US. Every 'professional' plumber is not the end-all be-all of plumbing knowledge. 
There have been some harsh words directed towards ericw since his original post. Some may say it is to help him and others say he should not be plumbing at all. 
Given enough time and reviewing enough posts, I'm sure we all could pick each other apart until there's nothing left but one guy standing...The Perfect Plumber!
I know it wouldn't be me, but who out there can look past their own fallibility and make that claim?


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Eric, 

What are other plumbers charging? If you want to become a premier (make a decent living) plumbing company you should be charging at least as much if not more than the what the highest plumbers charge in your area.

Now with that being said disregard what I said previously and determine what your true breakeven is. This is the ONLY way you are going to know for sure what YOU should be charging.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Ericw said:


> All overhead comes out of what we do during the day anything we do at night is different but I don't know that everything doesn't bread to be overhauled I just wanna get as far ahead before I am the one who is 100% in charge as I can be


Why are you not running all this work through the company?


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Plumber3653 said:


> I belong to several other forums and have encountered 'professional' plumbers who still don't pressurize their thermal expansion tanks.Not everybody is required to have certification all across the US. Every 'professional' plumber is not the end-all be-all of plumbing knowledge.
> There have been some harsh words directed towards ericw since his original post. Some may say it is to help him and others say he should not be plumbing at all.
> Given enough time and reviewing enough posts, I'm sure we all could pick each other apart until there's nothing left but one guy standing...The Perfect Plumber!
> I know it wouldn't be me, but who out there can look past their own fallibility and make that claim?


 
We already found who the perfect plumber is....he ran himself off....Does anybody know who I'm talking about??????


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Plumber Jim said:


> they just started enforcing codes 3 weeks ago?? you mean they weren't inspecting your new construction jobs?? OMG.


The county I live in borders WV. The county in WV that borders mine does not have any plumbing inspections on new res homes. 

Not sure about electrical, but there are no framing or mech. inspections either....I'm not sure about the other counties in the state. 

This county is extremely rural, low income. I can only guess that they can't afford any inspectors in their budget...


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Ericw said:


> Ok here is my next question we are doing 1/3 less new construction right now so it is even harder when the most of your money is coming from service work and not new where the bread and butter was I'm just really confused on whether I should raise rates and leave new homes the same or what


That is probably part of the problem. You are baseing your pricing on new construction. IMO your rates should be at least double or triple what you would charge for new construction and the main reason is unbillable hours.

Do you actually know how much an hour you are making?


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Ericw said:


> Been doing service work since I been partners just always had more new con now its completely opposite


If you have been doing new construction the installations should have been installed to code and if so you shouldn't have a problem passing a plumbing test. Most IMO Journeyman and Master plumbers test would be based on new construction and not service.

Ina Arkansas you have to have gone to a recognized Apprenticeship school and had on hte job training for 4 years before you can test for a Journeymans license and then you have to hold a Journeymans for a year before you can test for your Masters.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

So you work under your fathers license and insurance. But you do it at night, holding yourself out to be a seperate entity from your father's company.

Where the rubber meets the road I'm not sure you are actually insured or licensed.......


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

Associated Plum said:


> That is probably part of the problem. You are baseing your pricing on new construction. IMO your rates should be at least double or triple what you would charge for new construction and the main reason is unbillable hours.
> 
> Do you actually know how much an hour you are making?


On new homes we clear roughly 150-250 an hr then u take out gas money insurance and everything else then if we we make over a certain amount I get a bonus so my dad prob clears 40-75 an hr and he never shows up on new construction he does service work during the day while I do new construction then he allows me to do the service work he can't get to and any other for extra money. Maybe this thread went wrong but the highest priced plumber here is bout 20 dollars higher than what we charge. People like us and trust us I have contractors that have been with us for the whole 14 yrs I been with him. If you came to this town we would be one of the highest referred companies in this town.


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

ILPlumber said:


> So you work under your fathers license and insurance. But you do it at night, holding yourself out to be a seperate entity from your father's company.
> 
> Where the rubber meets the road I'm not sure you are actually insured or licensed.......


Explain to me how to post a pic on here from my phone and I will prove to you I am a llp and you cannot have a business in TN without ins.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

I'm going to keep this short....

1: If you feel you aren't charging enough, you are not...

2: Don't take this wrong, but.... Read more, post less....


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

Airgap said:


> I'm going to keep this short....
> 
> 1: If you feel you aren't charging enough, you are not...
> 
> 2: Don't take this wrong, but.... Read more, post less....


If you read the very beginning my wife thinks I don't I can't find a way to justify charging more with everyone struggling just wanted input on whether other people are raising rates right now and how its working out and most people have only cared about belittling me instead of helping


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## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

I would listen to your wife. I'm just finding out how expensive it is owning your own biz. Supplies, maintenance on your vehicle, biz ins, heath ins, advertising, gas, all your bills at home, tools, uniform, I'm sure I'm missing some stuff.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Ericw said:


> If you read the very beginning my wife thinks I don't I can't find a way to justify charging more with everyone struggling just wanted input on whether other people are raising rates right now and how its working out and most people have only cared about belittling me instead of helping


 
Yes we are.

The bank has not reduced our payment on the mortgage. the insurance comapnies are not reducing our premiums, material costs are continuing to go up (20% increase this month on copper and pvc), etc.... Overhead and salaries have to be covered with less billable hours, so the only option is to go up on rates.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Ericw said:


> If you read the very beginning my wife thinks I don't I can't find a way to justify charging more with everyone struggling just wanted input on whether other people are raising rates right now and how its working out and most people have only cared about belittling me instead of helping


I raise my rates just about annually... My customers trust me, and don't usually even notice a change.

If you worry too much about the struggles of your community you will fall farther and farther behind. Then you will have to drastically increase your prices, and it will cost you more customers than if you slowly increase...

I've also found out, my wife is right all of the time...whether she is right or not...


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

Associated Plum said:


> Yes we are.
> 
> The bank has not reduced our payment on the mortgage. the insurance comapnies are not reducing our premiums, material costs are continuing to go up (20% increase this month on copper and pvc), etc.... Overhead and salaries have to be covered with less billable hours, so the only option is to go up on rates.


Thank you finally someone who gets the thread and I understand all those things just scared if labor prices are raised ill be sitting at home wondering how much more work I could of had kinda scared to change something that has been working


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

Airgap said:


> I raise my rates just about annually... My customers trust me, and don't usually even notice a change.
> 
> If you worry too much about the struggles of your community you will fall farther and farther behind. Then you will have to drastically increase your prices, and it will cost you more customers than if you slowly increase...
> 
> I've also found out, my wife is right all of the time...whether she is right or not...


Thank you I think in 14 yrs I can only remember raising our rates 5 times you guys make every question so much more than what it really is I just really love this site and can see there are some really smart plumbers and business men here sometimes you can be the best at whatever you do and do good till people come in and start cutting your throat then you have to get creative to keep business no matter what you all may think if people know your rates and can't afford them they are gonna call joe blow off the streets to come fix there problem whether he can or not and when your in a small town joe blow can cost you a lot of money


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Plumber Jim said:


> have you calculated your break even? that will tell you what you should be charging. If you see you are not making enough you either have to raise your prices or cut costs.


Eric,
Jim asked you this direct question at the beginning of the thread and you have yet to answer. Have or have you not calculated your break even? Here's the questions only you and your father can answer and they MUST be answered for you to settle your disagreement with Mrs. Eric and to move forward with some common sense in your business:

1. FIRST AND FOREMOST, IF MRS. ERIC SAYS YOU'RE NOT CHARGING ENOUGH, FIND OUT SPECIFICALLY WHY RIGHT NOW. SHE'S GOT A LOT MORE TIME TO FIGURE IT OUT THAN YOU DO WHILE YOU'RE REPLACING A WATER HEATER SO CHANCES ARE SHE'S RIGHT AND YOU'RE NOT.
2. How many hours per day, week, year do you really have a truck parked in a customer's driveway working (total of all trucks if you have more than one on the road)? This is your "billable hours".
3. What is the difference between direct expenses, labor expenses (including ALL business and personal taxes), and overhead expenses?
4. What is the to the penny amount of your overhead expenses per day, week, year?
5. What is the to the penny cost of your direct costs per hour, day, week, year?
6. What is your expected annual income (for you to not struggle)?

There is no need for you to post such private information on a public forum but you MUST HAVE these answers for yourself. Now that you have these numbers, do some basic math:

Overhead+Direct Labor / Billable Hours = Minimum Hourly Rate to show up in a customer's driveway. You might want to be sitting down with a fully cooked crow and a knife/fork when you see the number.


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> Eric,
> Jim asked you this direct question at the beginning of the thread and you have yet to answer. Have or have you not calculated your break even? Here's the questions only you and your father can answer and they MUST be answered for you to settle your disagreement with Mrs. Eric and to move forward with some common sense in your business:
> 
> 1. FIRST AND FOREMOST, IF MRS. ERIC SAYS YOU'RE NOT CHARGING ENOUGH, FIND OUT SPECIFICALLY WHY RIGHT NOW. SHE'S GOT A LOT MORE TIME TO FIGURE IT OUT THAN YOU DO WHILE YOU'RE REPLACING A WATER HEATER SO CHANCES ARE SHE'S RIGHT AND YOU'RE NOT.
> ...


I am gonna do that this weekend I haven't yet just been kinda going on speculation thanks


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Airgap said:


> ...I've also found out, my wife is right all of the time...whether she is right or not...


MizBiz says...:yes:


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Ericw said:


> Thank you I think in 14 yrs I can only remember raising our rates 5 times you guys make every question so much more than what it really is I just really love this site and can see there are some really smart plumbers and business men here sometimes you can be the best at whatever you do and do good till people come in and start cutting your throat then you have to get creative to keep business no matter what you all may think if people know your rates and can't afford them they are gonna call joe blow off the streets to come fix there problem whether he can or not and when your in a small town joe blow can cost you a lot of money


YOU brought up the question...no need to get your feelings hurt, everyone is trying to help.


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

Titan Plumbing said:


> YOU brought up the question...no need to get your feelings hurt, everyone is trying to help.


Didn't know they were hurt in that just saying small town plumbing a lot different then big cities


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

I'm making money just not the money she thinks I should I make close to 45000 a yr in a town where the average person makes 25 so I think I do pretty good


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Ericw said:


> On new homes we clear roughly 150-250 an hr then u take out gas money insurance and everything else...


Your wife may really need to give you a bonk on the head. Are you saying that you went from charging and average of $200 per billable hour on new construction and now you are afraid to charge more than $50 for service? You just thought smellslike$tome was mean before. You ain't seen nothin' yet. I hope you have on your safety glasses and a hardhat.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Ericw said:


> Didn't know they were hurt in that just saying small town plumbing a lot different then big cities


I can point to more than one post as an example. 

It's very difficult to discuss actual number on an open forum. From your posts, not only are you having a disagreement with the Mrs., but everyone here also. Swallow some pride and learn what is being described, read between the lines if nothing else.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Ericw said:


> ...I can't find a way to justify charging more with everyone struggling.....just wanted input on whether other people are raising rates right now.....


McD's is eliminating the dollar menu, the price of gas is going through the roof, car insurance is higher, your electric bill is going up in an area where most people use electric water heaters, lumber costs more now than a year ago, plumbing supplies are at an all time high and climbing, your politicians are due for a pay raise, and by your own words you say you are struggling.

What more do you need to justify raising your rate? :bangin:


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

Titan Plumbing said:


> I can point to more than one post as an example.
> 
> It's very difficult to discuss actual number on an open forum. From your posts, not only are you having a disagreement with the Mrs., but everyone here also. Swallow some pride and learn what is being described, read between the lines if nothing else.


The thing that bothered me is people questioning me as a plumber because I asked a question


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Ericw said:


> The thing that bothered me is people questioning me as a plumber because I asked a question



Not for nothing, but some of your comments and questions sound more like they are coming from a newjack or fly-by-night than a 14 year plumber/business owner. Its a natural response.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Ericw said:


> Thank you finally someone who gets the thread and I understand all those things just scared if labor prices are raised ill be sitting at home wondering how much more work I could of had kinda scared to change something that has been working


Mr. Ferrell Johnson of Associated Plumbers is a smart and shrewd Plumbing Professional. One of the very best in our trade in my never-to-be-humble opinion. But from what I've read, every poster on your thread gets it. What you needed to know and do was on the first page. Yet, you continued to ask as though you wanted to ignore the obvious.

It's OK to be scared in business. We've all been there and sometimes still are. But you have to shelf the emotions to a degree when looking at the numbers. The money has to come from somewhere. You only have these choices:

1. Charge more per hour
2. Bill more hours
3. Reduce your expenses

There is no law that says the problem has to be your hourly rate, but I have never seen this number calculated by a first timer that didn't get the bejeebas scared out of 'em.

Maybe you can bill more hours, get more efficient, or find cheaper insurance. But it is more likely that you just don't charge enough to cover your costs.


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> Your wife may really need to give you a bonk on the head. Are you saying that you went from charging and average of $200 per billable hour on new construction and now you are afraid to charge more than $50 for service? You just thought smellslike$tome was mean before. You ain't seen nothin' yet. I hope you have on your safety glasses and a hardhat.


On new con it is by square ft so faster we get done more money made same principal on service work if I pull up to a house with a leaky faucet and I change the spring and washer it takes 10 mins at most I charge 65 dollars for 10 mins work figure that on an hr but if it takes me longer I don't make as much per hr per say what are your service call rates


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Ericw said:


> The thing that bothered me is people questioning me as a plumber because I asked a question


Do you think as a plumber that you prevent what the doctors cure? 

If so, do you think the doctors in your area are lowering their rates just to feel warm and fuzzy inside? Or do you think they want to charge as much as possible, so as to pay for their overhead, education and way of living?


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Ericw said:


> On new con it is by square ft so faster we get done more money made same principal on service work if I pull up to a house with a leaky faucet and I change the spring and washer it takes 10 mins at most I charge 65 dollars for 10 mins work figure that on an hr but if it takes me longer I don't make as much per hr per say what are your service call rates



Maybe you should cobsider flat rating service. Same concept as you mention with new con. Greater efficiency equals greater profits.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Ericw said:


> ...what are your service call rates...


Try to separate your sentences. Some of your posts are hard for me to follow. I'm kind of a simpleton. 

In most instances we charge a $49 diagnostic fee to show up and evaluate the problem. We educate the customer on the cause of the issue and the corrective action we believe is needed. We then discuss the various solutions with the customer and give them a specific price upfront for each option. The customer will then choose the option that is best for them.

If they choose to not have the repair completed for the price given, then they pay for the diagnosis and education and we move on. If they choose one of the solutions we offer, then the diagnostic fee is waved.

Here's a bit of advice though. You better get square with your numbers first before toying with the FR vs. T&M topic.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> Mr. Ferrell Johnson of Associated Plumbers is a smart and shrewd Plumbing Professional. One of the very best in our trade in my never-to-be-humble opinion. But from what I've read, every poster on your thread gets it. What you needed to know and do was on the first page. Yet, you continued to ask as though you wanted to ignore the obvious.


:blush: I am speechless. I just consider myself as plumber who happens to own a plumbing company in Arkansas, besides there are a whole lot smarter people on here than me

Eric, listen to what the others on here are telling you and determine your breakeven and then charge accordingly. Have you ever thought that everyone else is waiting on someone else to raise their price so they can also.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I have no clue what others are charging in my area. Don't care, it's irrelevant to my companies financial needs.


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## Ericw (Jan 25, 2011)

Just like today I have no work so how do I figure those days in weather is bad and can't do what was scheduled till tomorrow


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

Ericw,

I know all about trying to compete in an area that has very little code enforcement and relaxed licensing requirements.

I think it's time you seperate yourself from the competition in your area.

First, sit down with Dad and figure out what your companys operating cost are. 

Second, do the math and set an hourly rate. I charge 65 dollars for the first half hour and 65 per hour after that. I don't care how small your town. It still takes time to drive across it.

Third, as of October 1st 2010 the state of Tennesee adopted the 2009 IPC as their standard. Learn the code and work by it. Educate your customers, we have codes for a reason.

If you offer better service, you deserve a better price and your customers will feel the same.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

PlungerJockey said:


> Ericw,
> 
> Second, do the math and set an hourly rate. I charge 65 dollars for the first half hour and 65 per hour after that. I don't care how small your town. It still takes time to drive across it.


I would have thought you would be charging more than that in NWA, but then again you are in the land of Wal Mart, charge less and make it up in volume.

I know ya'll are having it tough up there with the way the builders did ya'll.

Do you know Judy @ Johnson (no relation) Plumbing?


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

I have been reading this through to the end. Eric I do understand... my Dad built his retirement home in small town TN. All I can say is I felt like I traveled back in time. My Dad pulled into town from WI and asked at the city hall where to pull a building permit. They told him to go back to WI for that. He built a large home on the water and all they inspected was electrical. The same guy that did the electrical did the plumbing and his cousin was the inspector. The carpenter did everything from concrete foundation to plaster, and finish trim.

I believe you and have a bit of understanding of how small town TN works. I toured the home during framing and mechanical stage. All the years of plumbing I have and I never truly saw san tees on there side until that day. Or short bend 90's for that matter. On a side note... I do not like my step mother and didn't mention it to her LOL.

The best advice I can give you my friend is split the difference with your wife of what she thinks your rates should be, and move on. You aint gonna win, a happy wife is a happy life bro. Then hang here with us and ask a ton of questions. I saw how things are there. You are not out of the ordinary for your part of the world if anything you are the norm.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Ericw said:


> Just like today I have no work so how do I figure those days in weather is bad and can't do what was scheduled till tomorrow



Elementary. After you find your break even and add in the profit you wish to make, divide by the number of days in the year you can work, and again by how many hours you can bill for per day. Hint: working days are usualy 250. Working hours 8 per day. Thats 2,000 work hours. Billable hours (those you can actually charge for) vary. But its NOT all 2,000. Be conservative in this figure.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

Associated Plum said:


> Do you know Judy @ Johnson (no relation) Plumbing?


I worked at Johnson Plumbing while Stan Johnson owned it and Judy was the office manager. I quit and worked abroad for awhile. I worked for Judy and Larry for about a year. It just was'nt for me.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

Associated Plum said:


> I would have thought you would be charging more than that in NWA, but then again you are in the land of Wal Mart, charge less and make it up in volume.
> 
> I know ya'll are having it tough up there with the way the builders did ya'll.


It is CUT-THROAT up here. Lots of plumbers were doing new construction and had to file bankruptcy. Alot of those guys were driving 50,000 dollar trucks they could'nt afford and did'nt know their cost.

Five years ago you could troll the yellow pages and there was 5 or 6 service plumbers in the area.

Now I would guess there are close to 100 or more. Serving a area with a population of roughly 500,000 at best. Please keep in mind these are licensed plumbers and these numbers do not include Handyman Connection, Jose, Nacho or the other unlicensed hacks.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

ckoch407 said:


> Remind me never to buy a home in that part of TN.


Run for the hills, I hear banjo music! :laughing:


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## sigshooter71 (Dec 8, 2010)

I guess you do live in a different world. Most plumbers in NJ need 200.00 to 400.00 an hour to hopefully make money.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

sigshooter71 said:


> I guess you do live in a different world. Most plumbers in NJ need 200.00 to 400.00 an hour to hopefully make money.


I don't think its his hours if you spent those same hours with no code no good practice methods and no good teachers where would you be

Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I'ma gonna get me a scription to this mag


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## breid1903 (Feb 8, 2009)

the numbers are odd. e made $200. + an hr on new work. ok. folks make $8.50. how can they do that? i don't know anyone around here making minimum wage buying new houses. i googled "smith electric and plumbing". up popped breeding swamp road, cooksville. is that you folks? breid...............:rockon:


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Ohio went to a state license in 1993 prior to that only some municipals had a requirement for a license and test. Some counties did not have inspection departments which meant no inspections or permits. I am sure there are parts of the country that still perform the same. When I started I did not need a license to do work in the county. I did have 3 city licenses to work in the cities close to me. Whether a person held a license or not did not reflect how good he or she is.

Eric concerning the dollars to run a company, your price should be based on your total costs of doing business. Even though you are pricing your work at a per hour rate in the evening sooner or later you will own the company. Think as if you are the owner at this time. You will most likely discover that it costs you close to 100 dollars to drive to the front door and wave to the customer even for a one man shop. This may be close to a breakeven price which means you have made zero dollars even though you think you made 60 dollars. During normal working hours down time accounts for 3-4 hours a day driving to and from the job, parts stores, gas, and other places. Your billable time must account for the down time. 

Some things not talked about to date. Where do you want to take the company in the future? Set up a business plan with action plans to get from point A to point B and that must be calculated in your rate. Eventually a new truck or van will be necessary how will that be paid for in the future? How about a shop, future employees how about a larger family? Insurance and benefits for you and future employees must be accounted for in this plan and rate. It is not about the here and now. If we really looked at rates seriously we would discover 150 dollars an hour not enough to cover costs to do business and location does not really enter into the equation of how much it really costs to do business. It is a tough thing to consider and most of us allow fear to enter into the decision of what should be charged and what is really charged. We fear customers will stop calling; we fear the customer will complain about the money. What we will discover the people who complain are the ones who complain when it was dirt cheap to begin with and love to complain. Most cater to the complainers instead of the people who want and will pay for great service and see fantastic value.
Good luck


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Run for the hills, I hear banjo music! :laughing:


I wouldn't run for the hills...it's worse up thar.....:blink:


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## PinkPlumber (May 20, 2012)

Why can't you become a master plumber?


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## jayson1965 (Apr 7, 2014)

smellslike$tome said:


> I read your profile where it says "residential plumber". Of course anybody can claim anything. Fess up now, you are not a certified, licensed plumber are you? Dabble in a little carpentry, painting, electrical, do you? What kind of lawn equipment do you use?


I almost wish this were facebook......SO I COULD "LIKE" THAT POST!! You took the words right out of my mouth!


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

smellslike$tome said:


> I know you don't see it this way right now but actually I am trying to help you. Probably half the people on this board started out in similar fashion, myself included, well, minus the Daddy part.
> 
> I only wish that someone had said the things to me that I am saying to you. It would have saved me several years of beating my head against the wall.
> 
> ...


Takes an hour or more just to drain the old heater this guy hasn't a clue what he's talking about


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

Eric, 
Look...if you do not know your operating cost. Your never going to be in the black. Asking other plumbers what they charge is one of the dumbest questions you can ask. What does it matter what I charge? My overhead may or may not be similar to you. Plus your not me! So it's a moot point what I charge. Oh and by the way 1.5 to change out a water heater..your losing money man! You pick up a heater that cost$. You dispose of the heater.. That cost$. Your truck I'm sure isn't one of those new ones that operate off air and floats. So you have truck costs. 

Until you open your eyes and wake up. Your never going to get it. I know a plumber here that has a business model that he says is a winner. His idea...charge 35.00 a hour and he will have all the work anyone can handle. Oh this business wizard...can't pay for gas, truck repairs, equipment repairs, and is cod at all supply houses. Yeah he sure is the plumbing king isn't he.


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## plumberinlaw (Jan 13, 2010)

You guy's realize this thread is over three years old.


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## bigjuplumbing (Jan 17, 2014)

What that guy said lol ^^^^^^^


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