# Underground repair on 1 1/2 pvc water main



## MikeS

Just curious what you guys do for underground repairs on water mains. I had one yesterday (actually, the junior on-call did, and he called me to "assist"). I quizzed him on how he wanted to repair it. It was under a driveway, asphalt like 4" thick, but after I found the problem, we ended up with a 5x7 hole (customer already had a hole going, so I just followed the flow). Junior wanted to use a pvc compression coupling. I don't trust them. Then, Flow-Span. I'm ok with those, but, they do have o-rings, and only if fully extended. I prefer a coupler and a union. Dig a big enough hole to lift the pipe on one side. Here is my repair. Basically, the pipe blew apart at a coupling. How do you guys deal with straight runs like this?


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## ChrisConnor

Even those unions have orings.

But what you did is fine. You could always make a swing joint.

if that was a 5'x 7' hole, you could have skipped the union and used two couplings and some pipe.

I've done a few repairs with wirsbo and threaded adapters to pvc, if I felt the ground was going to move more or if it was really tight area between the driveway and the house.


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## rocksteady

We have a lot of expansive soil here and it causes pipe movement. If the line's 1" or smaller, I might use pex to allow the pipe some flexibility. Anything bigger and I stay with PVC. I agree with Chris that with a hole that size you could probably have gotten enough pipe movement to use 2 regular couplings. Another option I have is using sch 80 mip's and copper with a propress repair coupling. Nice and easy, especially if there's water in the line and no way to access more pipe.






Paul


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## Epox

It's rare that I use a dresser or even a flo-span. I prefer the unions but if shift or movement has occurred I will swing joint to relieve any stress on the pvc.


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## MikeS

no way I could get enough flex for 2 couplers. Maybe a 3/4 line, but not a 1 1/2. it was 5' along the line, 7' from the original hole. I've never buried PEX before. that is an approved ok way to do things? How to attach to pvc? Male adapter, then pex adapter? I know the union has an o-ring, but its smashed when you tighten it, not like the slide one on the Flow Span. I've used flow spans many times, but don't trust them under slabs or driveways, etc. Whats your thoughts on those compression couplings?


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## ChrisConnor

Never a dresser under pavement.

Then again, I don't know the last time I used one on pvc.


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## rocksteady

Nothing wrong with what you did. I don't like compression couplings and can't remember if I've ever used one. I've used flo-span's before and they're fine but I agree they shoudln't be under a driveway. 




Paul


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## Mississippiplum

Dressers and telescopics are for hacks. 
A swing joint is good and unions are Great also. But the best is if u can get enough play in the pipe to use two couplings. But the very, very best is to use solvent weld shcd. 80 flanges instead of unions, if the budget allows it (only used on 2 inch plus)


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## markb

four 90s


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## RealCraftsMan

I was told that you could not use unions on pvc underground by my boss the other day. I don't have a full code book only the code check 2006 upc so I can't find it.


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## MikeS

markb said:


> four 90s


not even an option.


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## MikeS

RealCraftsMan said:


> I was told that you could not use unions on pvc underground by my boss the other day. I don't have a full code book only the code check 2006 upc so I can't find it.


 then that rules out half the flow spans and all the compression couplings


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## DesertOkie

I would use a smith blair before 4 90s even sch 80. Not a big fan of the telescoping stuff.


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## MikeS

DesertOkie said:


> I would use a smith blair before 4 90s even sch 80. Not a big fan of the telescoping stuff.


whats a smith blair? never heard of that. Always learning....

not these, I hope:
http://www.smith-blair.com/water_prod.php?cat=3

but I might use these:
http://www.smith-blair.com/water_prod.php?cat=8


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## RealCraftsMan

MikeS said:


> then that rules out half the flow spans and all the compression couplings


 
I love when ho's use comp couplings underground. A few years later and there leaking.


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## DesertOkie

MikeS said:


> whats a smith blair? never heard of that. Always learning....



They call it a dresser also. We have used the bigger version on 12" ductile water pipe without issue.


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## MikeS

DesertOkie said:


> They call it a dresser also. We have used the bigger version on 12" ductile water pipe without issue.
> 
> View attachment 13502


 yeah, thats probably the best repair option in my opinion. Only, in a pinch, they don;t have them at Lowes or Home Depot. And the wholesaler is closed. I've always called them Drescher couplings.


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## plbgbiz

I would have pulled a new line under the driveway with no fittings under the concrete/asphalt.


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## MikeS

plbgbiz said:


> I would have pulled a new line under the driveway with no fittings under the concrete/asphalt.


oh, do tell. Somewhere, there is a fitting.


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## hroark2112

Plenty of room in that hole for 4 90's, or 4 45's. I've used those Smith Blair clamps before, the wrap type clamps will hold like a coupling.


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## MikeS

hroark2112 said:


> Plenty of room in that hole for 4 90's, or 4 45's. I've used those Smith Blair clamps before, the wrap type clamps will hold like a coupling.


 seriouslly, 4 90's or 45's?


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## easttexasplumb

You guys are way over thinking this, just wrap some of this stuff around the leak.:whistling2:


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## MikeS

easttexasplumb said:


> View attachment 13505
> You guys are way over thinking this, just wrap some of this stuff around the leak.:whistling2:


 too late, I buried it


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## hroark2112

MikeS said:


> seriouslly, 4 90's or 45's?


Yup, 2 facing up (or right, or left, whatever you prefer) and 2 facing down (left/right/whatever, just facing the first 2). You can use 2 90's and 2 street 90's if you want.


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## MikeS

hroark2112 said:


> Yup, 2 facing up (or right, or left, whatever you prefer) and 2 facing down (left/right/whatever, just facing the first 2). You can use 2 90's and 2 street 90's if you want.


 I don't! Looks like ****, and, might blow out later! Seriously, people really do this?


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## ChrisConnor

I've got some on two inch that's been in the ground for fifteen years. No need to over engineer it, especially if the ground has moved and there is no alignment.


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## RealCraftsMan

MikeS said:


> I don't! Looks like ****, and, might blow out later! Seriously, people really do this?


 
It's called a swing joint and its perfectly ok to do, IMO.


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## RealLivePlumber

Really don't matter how you fix it. Its still a junk water service. You'll be back fixing it again. 


I'da pulled 1 1/4" copper through the pvc, under the driveway. Male adaptors on the pvc. Female on the copper. At least that section would be forever.


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## marc76075

I would definitely go with two couplings if you have enough play in the line, but that's rarely the case. Unless I feel like digging 5 plus ft on both sides, ill use 4 90's. Digging through the lime down here can be a be-otch.


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## GREENPLUM

FYI, round here when we fix it with 4-90's we call it .... a Horseshoe Coupling

swing joints are different


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## MSilver

In here Unions underground are a big no nio, there is no way you can use couplings, (1-1/2" under concrete? c'mon), mechanical compression coupplings only as tempory repair.
Only options for "in line" repairs are 2 sets of flanges or 4 90's with a kicker.
this is plumbing 101


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## U666A

Personally, I like to hold my tongue on a subject like this until a few of the members, whom I follow around like a puppy dog, have come to a concensus.

Then i adopt their opinion as my own and act like I feel just SSSOOO STRONGLY about it! Sheesh!



I know Kung Fu!


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## easttexasplumb

Guess no one wants to waste a schwinn coupling on PVC.


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## DesertOkie

plbgbiz said:


> I would have pulled a new line under the driveway with no fittings under the concrete/asphalt.


Would you use 1 1/2 pe for that? We did a good long run of 6" in a trailer park finding mega lugs that would fit was a PITA.


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## DesertOkie

easttexasplumb said:


> Guess no one wants to waste a schwinn coupling on PVC.



It was an emergency, it's hard to find 1 1/2 schwinn couplings at homedepot. I was thinking bud coupling, they are everywhere, but we can only use those on DWV here.:thumbup:


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## MSilver

DesertOkie said:


> It was an emergency, it's hard to find 1 1/2 schwinn couplings at homedepot. I was thinking bud coupling, they are everywhere, but we can only use those on DWV here.:thumbup:


What's a bud coupling?


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## plbgbiz

DesertOkie said:


> Would you use 1 1/2 pe for that? We did a good long run of 6" in a trailer park finding mega lugs that would fit was a PITA.


Probably wirsbo. Sleeved in 2" HDPE


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## DesertOkie

plbgbiz said:


> Probably wirsbo.



I miss wirsbo.


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## MSilver

U666A said:


> Personally, I like to hold my tongue on a subject like this until a few of the members, whom I follow around like a puppy dog, have come to a concensus.
> 
> Then i adopt their opinion as my own and act like I feel just SSSOOO STRONGLY about it! Sheesh!
> 
> 
> 
> I know Kung Fu!


After reading some of your posts I agree 100%


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## Widdershins

We aren't allowed to use unions below ground unless they're made accessible with a yard box.

We also aren't allowed to have any fittings under asphalt or concrete unless the piping is sleeved/chased so it can be pulled out and replaced if the fitting fails.

Then again, I live right on top of a major fault line.


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## plbgbiz

DesertOkie said:


> Would you use 1 1/2 pe for that? We did a good long run of 6" in a trailer park finding mega lugs that would fit was a PITA.


I prefer HDPE over PE. The fusable ips adapters make it darn near bullet proof.


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## plbgbiz

Widdershins said:


> ....Then again, I live right on top of a major fault line.


Does that make it all your fault? :laughing:


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## Widdershins

plbgbiz said:


> Does that make it all your fault? :laughing:


 Always.


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## DesertOkie

plbgbiz said:


> I prefer HDPE over PE. The fusable ips adapters make it darn near bullet proof.


Sorry, that's what I meant. We didn't have the fusible fittings the butt fused or the tie in type. I agree with that it would be bullet proof.:thumbup:


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## U666A

MSilver said:


> After reading some of your posts I agree 100%


Thank you for sharing your opinion. :thumbup:

BTW, This is a "bud coupling"









I know Kung Fu!


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## drtyhands

U666A said:


> Personally, I like to hold my tongue on a subject like this until a few of the members, whom I follow around like a puppy dog, have come to a concensus.
> 
> Then i adopt their opinion as my own and act like I feel just SSSOOO STRONGLY about it! Sheesh!
> 
> 
> 
> I know Kung Fu!


Bingo!!!
Lot's of pussie's around huh?
Amazes me how a thread will sit for almost a full day dead till one of the impressionables lights it up.


I have used the telescopers on lines that have settled.The only large bore I did was 6mo's ago on a residence 20yr's old.
I've seen 1 re-busted,homeowner glued out of alignment.That one was irrigation 4 90.

When contemplating a repair I've always got flow restriction of 4 90's in the back of my head.
That said,if I look up and see Mr.Culligan's 3/4" softner bypass on a 1-1/2" that's been there for 30 years it makes me wonder why I bother.


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## tungsten plumb

MikeS said:


> I don't! Looks like ****, and, might blow out later! Seriously, people really do this?


I'm starting to question if your really a plumber with questions like that:whistling2:


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## RealLivePlumber

GREENPLUM said:


> FYI, round here when we fix it with 4-90's we call it .... a Horseshoe Coupling
> 
> swing joints are different


We call it a Dog leg.


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## futz

hroark2112 said:


> Yup, 2 facing up (or right, or left, whatever you prefer) and 2 facing down (left/right/whatever, just facing the first 2). You can use 2 90's and 2 street 90's if you want.





MikeS said:


> I don't! Looks like ****, and, might blow out later! Seriously, people really do this?


Who cares what it looks like? It's underground! :laughing: Ya gotta do what ya gotta do sometimes.  As long as the customer has water again and it isn't washing his driveway away then he's happy. And it's no more likely to blow out than the original crappy PVC, or the coupling/union that the OP did.


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## cityplumbing

4-90's, sometimes 45's..


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## Associated Plum

MikeS said:


> whats a smith blair? never heard of that. Always learning....
> 
> not these, I hope:
> http://www.smith-blair.com/water_prod.php?cat=3
> 
> but I might use these:
> http://www.smith-blair.com/water_prod.php?cat=8


 
IMO a bolt style dresser is the way to go.


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## ToUtahNow

I've used a bunch of the KBI Quick-Fix coupling for up to 4" PVC and never had a problem.

Mark


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## damnplumber

U666A said:


> Personally, I like to hold my tongue on a subject like this until a few of the members, whom I follow around like a puppy dog, have come to a concensus.
> 
> Then i adopt their opinion as my own and act like I feel just SSSOOO STRONGLY about it! Sheesh!
> 
> 
> 
> I know Kung Fu!


Now that's funny right there!


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## damnplumber

There's a lot of hydraulic force in 1-1/2 pipe a "horse shoe joint" might work if you get a VERY GOOD and CLEAN glue joint. I draw the line with 1-inch but those telescopic glue on unions... I have had success with but I'm not over confident and always tell the client "This is only a patch" . The best way I feel is to replace the section under the driveway with a new pipe and no joints under the driveway and a coupler at each end. PEX isn't a bad idea either but I don't have any PEX tooling over 1"


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## Cuda

MikeS said:


> Just curious what you guys do for underground repairs on water mains. I had one yesterday (actually, the junior on-call did, and he called me to "assist"). I quizzed him on how he wanted to repair it. It was under a driveway, asphalt like 4" thick, but after I found the problem, we ended up with a 5x7 hole (customer already had a hole going, so I just followed the flow). Junior wanted to use a pvc compression coupling. I don't trust them. Then, Flow-Span. I'm ok with those, but, they do have o-rings, and only if fully extended. I prefer a coupler and a union. Dig a big enough hole to lift the pipe on one side. Here is my repair. Basically, the pipe blew apart at a coupling. How do you guys deal with straight runs like this?


I would need to see a larger pic of the driveway. As a rule we don't do repairs anymore under driveways, we would pull in a new line of hdpe or pex.With the pipe burster Or use a mole, all depending on other utilities in the area. Just because we don't want to come back and do it again. Even a great customer is looking at you with those eyes hoping for a reduction on the bill for the 2nd repair.


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## user7551

I guess I'm crazy because I would use 90's or 45's and make sure to get sand or gravel all around it and 6inch's on top of it.Then call it a day.I damn sure wouldn't use any kind of flange or telescoping coupling under a driveway . The best suggestion I've seen posted other than a swing joint would be to pull 1 size smaller line through the existing line , or the other suggestion about the pipe breaker and pulling a full size line under the driveway.Other than that keep it simple its 1 1/2 pvc not a 8 ductile iron line.


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## Cuda

I should have also mentioned one of the things that pisses me off is to see a water service under a driveway and then look over and see a nice grassy area next to it where it could have gone in the first place.


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## MikeS

well. thanks for all the replies guys. In my defense, I considered the union to be the strongest solution. I had an old school plumber long ago teach me to NEVER use 90's underground on any PVC, unless its supported somehow, like cement or drive in a stake or something, which is why I ruled out the 4 90's on this sized line. I've learned from experience that compression couplings will fail a few years down the road. I also have to add, that PVC water mains are quite common in Bakersfield. I have even done jobs for the local water utilities to replace mains with PVC. Its just how its done out here. I've used flow-spans in the past, and if I use them I make sure I glue them in fully extended. I liked this repair because I used only 2 fittings, and one of them was a schedule 80 fitting, the union. Since its a straight on shot, I see little chance of failure in the future. To me, four 90's always seemed like a hack, and if thats your method, ok. Just seems like more to possibly go wrong, and when it does, some other guy digs it up and goes, WTF? So, to each his own, I guess.


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## MikeS

tungsten plumb said:


> I'm starting to question if your really a plumber with questions like that:whistling2:


yeah, been doing it for 21 years.


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