# Plumber or Business Owner



## robwilliams (May 6, 2011)

Friend of mine, operate his own plumbing business. He started his business the exact same year I started mine, 1976. For him lately, business has not been very good. He actually thought about closing his doors. Anyway, he gets a call for a leaking water heater last week. He goes to the house this past Tuesday, tells the woman, she should replace this water heater because it is leaking and it is 18 years old. She asks for him to replace it Friday (today). He scrapes the money to buy the new heater, because he doesn't have a charge account with any of the supply houses around here. He installs the new water heater and guess what? It doesn't heat the water. It is an electric water heater and he determines the elements are defective. He calls Ferguson and they tell him the warranty department is closed until Monday. And the counter person will not swap the heater without approval from the warranty department. He calls and asks me, what should he do. I immediately told him, NOT to leave the customer without hot water. I say, if it were me, I would buy another water heater, install it and deal with the warranty on the defective heater on Monday. This will result in a satisfied customer. What does he do? He leaves the woman without hot water until Monday, because he doesn't have enough money to buy another water heater until Monday. I just cannot believe this guy thinks it's ok, to remove a working water heater, replace it and find out the replacement is defective, and just walk away leaving the customer without hot water on Easter weekend. This customer will never forget this. I told him, this kind of business practice is why his telephone is not ringing. This is why his business is doing poorly now. I mean, sometimes I feel sorry for him when he tells me, his business is failing. But, when I hear this, I gotta say, he has only himself to blame. I mean, some people are plumbers and some people are businessmen. Not everyone can be both.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

All he is doing is delaying the inevitable. When I sold my business to my boss, the first thing he did was look at my numbers, and raise the rates about 20%. He's a pipefitter by the way, never had any service work or experiance, but huis business acumen is what convinced me to sell to him.


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## ROTOR KING (Oct 7, 2008)

robwilliams said:


> Friend of mine, operate his own plumbing business. He started his business the exact same year I started mine, 1976. For him lately, business has not been very good. He actually thought about closing his doors. Anyway, he gets a call for a leaking water heater last week. He goes to the house this past Tuesday, tells the woman, she should replace this water heater because it is leaking and it is 18 years old. She asks for him to replace it Friday (today). He scrapes the money to buy the new heater, because he doesn't have a charge account with any of the supply houses around here. He installs the new water heater and guess what? It doesn't heat the water. It is an electric water heater and he determines the elements are defective. He calls Ferguson and they tell him the warranty department is closed until Monday. And the counter person will not swap the heater without approval from the warranty department. He calls and asks me, what should he do. I immediately told him, NOT to leave the customer without hot water. I say, if it were me, I would buy another water heater, install it and deal with the warranty on the defective heater on Monday. This will result in a satisfied customer. What does he do? He leaves the woman without hot water until Monday, because he doesn't have enough money to buy another water heater until Monday. I just cannot believe this guy thinks it's ok, to remove a working water heater, replace it and find out the replacement is defective, and just walk away leaving the customer without hot water on Easter weekend. This customer will never forget this. I told him, this kind of business practice is why his telephone is not ringing. This is why his business is doing poorly now. I mean, sometimes I feel sorry for him when he tells me, his business is failing. But, when I hear this, I gotta say, he has only himself to blame. I mean, some people are plumbers and some people are businessmen. Not everyone can be both.


 He could of tooken the pill and gave you the job,cashed in the tank,or kept it and waited for the next job


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Sounds like there is more to the story . . . maybe he owes Fergies money. I find it hard to believe you would have to wait for the warranty department. Our supplier will swap it out after the fact if need be. Then again, they aren't Fergies.

Leaving the customer without HW is awful. She would be justified in calling another plumber to finish the job, and tell your friend he can pick up his faulty water heater. He didn't provide a service, and IMO, should not be paid for one.

He actually did a dis-service.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

robwilliams said:


> Friend of mine, operate his own plumbing business. He started his business the exact same year I started mine, 1976. For him lately, business has not been very good. He actually thought about closing his doors. ....


For 37 years his business kept a roof over his head and food on the table? Not too shabby, even for a plumber.

The water heater....he's all turned around, by the sounds of it. When has a electric water heater been that defective out of the box?


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## drain surgeon (Jun 17, 2010)

Even if he could not afford another heater he should have at least checked the t stats and elements and replaced what was needed. Not much more that can go wrong unless.......did he check the breaker??


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## robwilliams (May 6, 2011)

I wasn't there, so I am not real sure what he did or did not check. And I am sure there is a lot more to the story than what he told me. He has had numerous financial problems the last couple of years. Whether he owed anyone money or not, or whether he checked the elements or the thermostat, the point I was trying to make is, he is not customer oriented. I tried to tell this guy years ago, to keep parts on his van for everything he sells. That way, even if he is too dumb or too lazy to know to check the elements or the thermostat, he could simply swap each part out, in a matter of minutes to see if one of them was defective or not. I don't know about anyone else, but I would never leave someone without hot water for even one night, let alone an entire weekend.


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## robwilliams (May 6, 2011)

Plumber said:


> For 37 years his business kept a roof over his head and food on the table? Not too shabby, even for a plumber.
> 
> The water heater....he's all turned around, by the sounds of it. When has a electric water heater been that defective out of the box?


Just because someone runs a business for 37 years, doesn't necessarily mean that particular business paid his bills and kept a roof over his head. This guy has had financial help from family and friends.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

robwilliams said:


> Just because someone runs a business for 37 years, doesn't necessarily mean that particular business paid his bills and kept a roof over his head. This guy has had financial help from family and friends.


He's been a throne in your heel for near 40 years, huh.

And big business gets bailed out by the feds. And the US gets bailed out by China. It's good he's got family. I can't think of one plumbing company that doesn't have family involved. 

I've got family helping me and I help them. Family is good. Some parts of my family in Texas has 4 generations living under one roof.

And it is okay to be in fiancial straights. 1 out of 25 houses here are 90 days late on mortgage. 1 out of 25.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Sounds like he didn't realize the newer heater fires at 4500 watts, and if the wiring is inadequate (20amp, 12-2) then he's got more problems than anyone knows. 


You will not get around that situation, must be 10-2 30 amp wire for all new electric heaters. Only Sears Kenmore, an A.O. Smith heater made specific for Sears has the 3800 upper/lower elements that can be operated by 20amp service.


And if the guy was smart, he should of had the customer buy the heater. Problem solved, no worries. 

Nobody is making more than $100 profit off a water heater in materials, NO ONE.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Sounds like he didn't realize the newer heater fires at 4500 watts, and if the wiring is inadequate (20amp, 12-2) then he's got more problems than anyone knows.
> 
> 
> You will not get around that situation, must be 10-2 30 amp wire for all new electric heaters. Only Sears Kenmore, an A.O. Smith heater made specific for Sears has the 3800 upper/lower elements that can be operated by 20amp service.
> ...


 
The first thing is you're right on the amps and breakers. However depending on distance the 20 amp breaker will work with 4500 watts. If it is a great distance away it may throw the breaker. I have witnessed many heaters installed improperly by plumbers that had a 4500 watt heater on a 20 amp breaker. Used to be that all you needed to do was change the elements as the wire was the same inside the heater. I am not sure how long ago the wiring inside the heaters changed and the Ul rating on the wire prohibits exchanging the elements and voids the warranty.

sounds like a dry fire to me.


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

I agree it sound like it was dry fired.


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## wyplumber (Feb 14, 2013)

You have to fill those full of water first?


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## Gryphon Plumber (Jun 3, 2012)

Thank this guy for me. His horrible service helps me justify my rates, because I would NEVER do that.


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## Gryphon Plumber (Jun 3, 2012)

wyplumber said:


> You have to fill those full of water first?


LoL


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Richard Hilliard said:


> The first thing is you're right on the amps and breakers. However depending on distance the 20 amp breaker will work with 4500 watts. If it is a great distance away it may throw the breaker. I have witnessed many heaters installed improperly by plumbers that had a 4500 watt heater on a 20 amp breaker. Used to be that all you needed to do was change the elements as the wire was the same inside the heater. I am not sure how long ago the wiring inside the heaters changed and the Ul rating on the wire prohibits exchanging the elements and voids the warranty.
> 
> sounds like a dry fire to me.


 

I have too, but you're putting a 18.75 amp load on a 20 amp breaker. That breaker will be humming in the panel, getting hot with that type of draw. Wadsworth 'does' make a 25 amp breaker which keeps it out of that full reach of the breaker's limits. Since wadsworth is out of business, those breakers fetch a high dollar... people will pay it. 

Over the years I've seen the quality of breakers go down. At one time you could bet the bank the breaker was good, not so much with these secondary no-name brands in the biz.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I have too, but you're putting a 18.75 amp load on a 20 amp breaker. That breaker will be humming in the panel, getting hot with that type of draw. Wadsworth 'does' make a 25 amp breaker which keeps it out of that full reach of the breaker's limits. Since wadsworth is out of business, those breakers fetch a high dollar... people will pay it.
> 
> Over the years I've seen the quality of breakers go down. At one time you could bet the bank the breaker was good, not so much with these secondary no-name brands in the biz.


 
Not debating that at all. My first sentence was in total agreement with what you stated about breaker size and wattage. I am debating that it will not work . It will not hum if it is 10 feet away . 60 feet from the panel you would get it and possibly blow the breaker.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

What does being a businessman or plumber have to do with it? It's a character thing, and he has none if he is going to leave someone with out hot water. Why couldn't he install new elements? He has no work not because he is a poor businessman, it's beause
he is just $h!tty individual.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

The human race did alright without water heaters. Why, I bet there are plenty of people right here in America that do without water heaters on a daily basis.

Are we that soft now?


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## Gryphon Plumber (Jun 3, 2012)

Plumber said:


> The human race did alright without water heaters. Why, I bet there are plenty of people right here in America that do without water heaters on a daily basis.
> 
> Are we that soft now?


Is this guy so soft that he can't fulfill the obligation he has to his customer?


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Plumber said:


> The human race did alright without water heaters. Why, I bet there are plenty of people right here in America that do without water heaters on a daily basis.
> 
> Are we that soft now?


The point is that they should not have had to go without. They were willing to pay for a professional service, and the plumber didn't deliver.


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

If he cant buy elements or thermostats he needs to give it up. If it were me I would have changed them and not left her without hot water. Oh and how is a water heater defective for elements right out of the box..I don't buy it..he had to dryfire it.


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## Gryphon Plumber (Jun 3, 2012)

victoryplbaz said:


> If he cant buy elements or thermostats he needs to give it up. If it were me I would have changed them and not left her without hot water. Oh and how is a water heater defective for elements right out of the box..I don't buy it..he had to dryfire it.


And if he has been plumbing since 1976, and is dryfiring WHs he can't be very good. We all make mistakes, but seriously.


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

Plumber said:


> The human race did alright without water heaters. Why, I bet there are plenty of people right here in America that do without water heaters on a daily basis.
> 
> Are we that soft now?


That was when people lived to the ripe old age of fifty. Lol


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

and drinking grizzly wiz from the streams


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

HSI said:


> That was when people lived to the ripe old age of fifty. Lol


Instead of the decrepit age of 70? I've wondered how the older people back then made it that far. Benjamin Franklin was 85, for example.



Gryphon Plumber said:


> And if he has been plumbing since 1976, and is dryfiring WHs he can't be very good. We all make mistakes, but seriously.


At least he didn't cut off the wrong leg. It's not like plumbers are upper class geniuses, but people seem to think we should be as smart as that.


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

Plumber said:


> Instead of the decrepit age of 70? I've wondered how the older people back then made it that far. Benjamin Franklin was 85, for example.
> 
> At least he didn't cut off the wrong leg. It's not like plumbers are upper class geniuses, but people seem to think we should be as smart as that.


You got that right, my nephew was a 3rd year apprentice when he was 22. The company he worked for pushed sales like crazy so instead of plumbing he went to a dealership and sold cars. Now he is 26 making 6 figures as a sales manager. Figures, I wish I would of thought about that.


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## Gryphon Plumber (Jun 3, 2012)

You want a example of soft I'm about to leave to look at a faucet because the customer thinks the putty seal on it it bad for a faucet we installed a month ago. Now thats not a emergency.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

robwilliams said:


> Friend of mine,<snip>
> 
> *As the OP was about a water heater that did not make H.W.*
> *I was Googling around and came up with this. Thought many on here *
> ...


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