# Their install versus ours.



## Dtmack87 (Dec 1, 2017)

Walked into a home. Complaints on noisy system with limited heat. Saw this. Contractor apparently does not know how to not only size the lines, but cut and thread piping as well. This system calls for a single 2 1/2" supply and header with 1 1/2 returns. I personally like to run 2 supplies with a full size header, but this system only has one steam supply. Not a fan of Slant Finn. Nonetheless, it is working just fine now. Ridiculous. Existing steam main is 3 1/2" as well. Very funky sizes here. 


















After a full day of work, It now looks like this.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Looking much better. Good job.

Do you have a supply shut off before the backflow device so you can service it?


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## Dtmack87 (Dec 1, 2017)

GAN said:


> Looking much better. Good job.
> 
> Do you have a supply shut off before the backflow device so you can service it?



There is a shut off valve in the ceiling.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Can't see where the riser connect to the system pipe.. and with enough room, why didn't you use the drop header set up, few more fittings but less,faster laborwise.

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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Local code? All I see here is copper for radiant unless the beast is old.


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## Dtmack87 (Dec 1, 2017)

rjbphd said:


> Can't see where the riser connect to the system pipe.. and with enough room, why didn't you use the drop header set up, few more fittings but less,faster laborwise.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


Single supply system does not call for drop header. I only install drop headers and swing joints on high btu load systems (250,000 btu and up) with dual supplies on boiler. Steam main is directly overhead with a split tie into mains going in both directions to feed home. Improper 2 pipe steam system was tied in attempting to connect steam baseboards. This was all removed and radiators reinstalled with proper sized lines pitching back towards system with drip line installed. System pressure is .5 psi with a 1 lb differential.

Priming and surge issues in system have now been addressed and steam line bounce is under 1 inch on full steam.


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## Dtmack87 (Dec 1, 2017)

OpenSights said:


> Local code? All I see here is copper for radiant unless the beast is old.


This is a steam boiler. Installing copper for steam mains is a big no-no. A also never install copper for returns as the acidic nature of the condensate eats the pipe.

If this was a hot water boiler, all piping would be installed in copper.


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## 5onthefloor (Sep 13, 2017)

Dtmack87 said:


> Single supply system does not call for drop header. I only install drop headers and swing joints on high btu load systems (250,000 btu and up) with dual supplies on boiler. Steam main is directly overhead with a split tie into mains going in both directions to feed home. Improper 2 pipe steam system was tied in attempting to connect steam baseboards. This was all removed and radiators reinstalled with proper sized lines pitching back towards system with drip line installed. System pressure is .5 psi with a 1 lb differential.
> 
> Priming and surge issues in system have now been addressed and steam line bounce is under 1 inch on full steam.


I think it sounds so bad ass when u guys talk hydronics. This is one aspect of the trade that I have little to no experience. We just don't run into residential systems here in TX as heat and ac is thru an air handler unit with furnace and condenser outside. Obviously our climate differs greatly so the only time you will deal with boilers, radiators etc is in multi family or large commercial. 
2 years ago I wish I had been on this forum. I was working at a hospital as their level 3 plumber and we had 4 boilers that supplied hot water and heated the building. We had one plant technician that I did not get along with so I generally would stay out of the plant. The first time I was on call, the boilers kept going into low water alarm stage, I'd get paged and have to leave my house to investigate. One of the other employees showed me what to do if that happened including managing the BAS in those scenarios. To this day, I believe the plant tech was somehow sabotaging the boilers so they would alarm on me. When he was on call they miraculously would seem to run smoothly.
The longer I worked there the more I learned, and I made a big deal about alarms on the boilers. Supervisor agreed and he made the plant tech give a class to all facilities staff on proper procedure of blowdown, checks etc. He hated that but afterwards I rarely if ever got any alarms after that. 

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## Dtmack87 (Dec 1, 2017)

5onthefloor said:


> I think it sounds so bad ass when u guys talk hydronics. This is one aspect of the trade that I have little to no experience. We just don't run into residential systems here in TX as heat and ac is thru an air handler unit with furnace and condenser outside. Obviously our climate differs greatly so the only time you will deal with boilers, radiators etc is in multi family or large commercial.
> 2 years ago I wish I had been on this forum. I was working at a hospital as their level 3 plumber and we had 4 boilers that supplied hot water and heated the building. We had one plant technician that I did not get along with so I generally would stay out of the plant. The first time I was on call, the boilers kept going into low water alarm stage, I'd get paged and have to leave my house to investigate. One of the other employees showed me what to do if that happened including managing the BAS in those scenarios. To this day, I believe the plant tech was somehow sabotaging the boilers so they would alarm on me. When he was on call they miraculously would seem to run smoothly.
> The longer I worked there the more I learned, and I made a big deal about alarms on the boilers. Supervisor agreed and he made the plant tech give a class to all facilities staff on proper procedure of blowdown, checks etc. He hated that but afterwards I rarely if ever got any alarms after that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I am just like you. I love reading things that i have a partial understanding about, or none for that matter, written by others who just know their ****. I learn so much that way. 

It is why i love forums like this. We all benefit from our vast, shared experience.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

5onthefloor
You want to learn how to work on Commercial Water Heaters, they are almost
the same as working on Boilers, and a whole lot FUN besides !


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Dtmack87 said:


> Single supply system does not call for drop header. I only install drop headers and swing joints on high btu load systems (250,000 btu and up) with dual supplies on boiler. Steam main is directly overhead with a split tie into mains going in both directions to feed home. Improper 2 pipe steam system was tied in attempting to connect steam baseboards. This was all removed and radiators reinstalled with proper sized lines pitching back towards system with drip line installed. System pressure is .5 psi with a 1 lb differential.
> 
> Priming and surge issues in system have now been addressed and steam line bounce is under 1 inch on full steam.


Are you fookin kidding me a out the drop header? ? And still waiting to see the system connection at top of boiler

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## Dtmack87 (Dec 1, 2017)

rjbphd said:


> Are you fookin kidding me a out the drop header? ? And still waiting to see the system connection at top of boiler
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk



http://www.slantfin.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Galaxy-Installation-Manual-Pre-DOE-2012-706.pdf


See page 7. We all have different methods to our particular work areas. Drop headers, while effective, are not always necessary. In addition, this is a permitted and inspected install. Figure 2 is our exact install in relation to the particular system in this home. While we may not agree on individual installation, we can both agree the first install is completely improper. The second is to manufacturer specifications.

As far as further pictures, Had i known ahead of time you required particular views, i would have gone to much greater lengths to provide this. Unfortunately, these are all i have. I am returning in 1-2 weeks to skim the system however. Knowing how interested you are in this, i will try to remember to take more photos.


Have a good day.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Dtmack87 said:


> This is a steam boiler. Installing copper for steam mains is a big no-no. A also never install copper for returns as the acidic nature of the condensate eats the pipe.
> 
> If this was a hot water boiler, all piping would be installed in copper.


I don't claim to be a steam wizard. I have worked on a few several years ago, residential in our historic district, none of which were copper of course.

That said I do agree about the acidic level in returns the copper industry will have you believe you can install copper for steam. For sure L I wouldn't feel safe without K.

_"Steam-Heating Return Lines
For steam-heating systems, especially return lines, the outstanding corrosion resistance and non-rusting characteristics of copper tube assure trouble-free service and maintenance of traps, valves and other devices. On condensate and hot water return lines, it is recommended that the last two feet before the heating medium should be double the size of the rest of the line. For example, if the return line is 1-inch tube, enlarge it to 2-inch."_

https://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techcorner/cu_tube_steam_systems.html

http://copperplumbing.org.uk/sites/default/files/content_attachments/steam-condense-pipelines.pdf

Also with the use of treatments.>>> http://www2.claritywatertech.com/blog/bid/356993/Condensate-Water-Treatment-Because-Steam-Boiler-Pipes-Are-Corroding


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

There are miles of copper steam and condensate lines on the campus where I work. Many are nearly 100 years old. Most of these are on central steam, maybe that helps them last, I don't know.


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## Dtmack87 (Dec 1, 2017)

GAN said:


> I don't claim to be a steam wizard. I have worked on a few several years ago, residential in our historic district, none of which were copper of course.
> 
> That said I do agree about the acidic level in returns the copper industry will have you believe you can install copper for steam. For sure L I wouldn't feel safe without K.
> 
> ...



I have seen all of this as well. And to be quite honest, i have a few systems that are in apartment buildings, with what is called an old "fireman's system", that when we run the returns in black pipe, they get destroyed. When we switch them to copper, they hold for the life of the boiler.

The only reasoning i have for this is counter-intuitive. The systems condensate returns are horrible. The amount of fresh water fill these boilers use is astronomical due to the leaking underfloor returns. Based on that logic, more fresh water=more hydrogen and oxygen. Introduce that to a cast iron system, you would get more rust and corrosion. right???

The opposite thought, for this particular system, is the amount of fresh water is actually keeping the system cleaner. So the copper is holding up better.....

But than i go back to the original thought of oxygen and black pipe will rust. So it stands to reason, the copper would be better in this situation due to it not rusting and standing up the acidic water better....

And this is exactly what i meant when i posted above that every install is different and requires different rules.

The joys of being plumbers


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Most plumbers I've met shouldn't work on hydronic heating system. 

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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

rjbphd said:


> Most plumbers I've met shouldn't work on hydronic heating system.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


You are correct,esp when you don’t have a boiler license,if someone calls wanting me to work on boiler or piping,I tell them I have no boiler license that is required in ky


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Don't have them in Illinois, the work I've seen are disgusting. .giving more reasons for sorched air companies to yank them out.

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## Dtmack87 (Dec 1, 2017)

rjbphd said:


> Most plumbers I've met shouldn't work on hydronic heating system.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


Couldn't agree with you more. I was trained for years on how to work on these systems. It took many more years in the field, screwing things up and fixing them, to get to where we are today.

Good/exceptional boiler techs are very difficult to find. It is also the reason why i am training my guys as hard as i can on this stuff.

When i go, i do not want the knowledge to go with me.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Dtmack87 said:


> Couldn't agree with you more. I was trained for years on how to work on these systems. It took many more years in the field, screwing things up and fixing them, to get to where we are today.
> 
> Good/exceptional boiler techs are very difficult to find. It is also the reason why i am training my guys as hard as i can on this stuff.
> 
> When i go, i do not want the knowledge to go with me.


I would love to be your helper for a day or week. My little boiler license could use the experience.


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## Dtmack87 (Dec 1, 2017)

dhal22 said:


> I would love to be your helper for a day or week. My little boiler license could use the experience.



If you are ever around Southeastern Michigan, hit me up. Would be my pleasure to have you along.

Have an awesome holiday!!!


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