# WTF is happening to the plumbing trade?



## PLUMBER_BILL

Throw away all your tools, all your education, but I bet the work you do is not going to be around in 60+ years. Subject in point.
After viewing the photo click on this link. Again WTF
http://www.phcnews.com/content/sharkbite-introduces-evopex-push-connect-plumbing-system%E2%80%8B


----------



## Master Mark

what are you worried about... 
you and me will be dead and gone before this takes 
a bite out of our income.....

thats someone elses problem...

I got to install 2 1 1/4 shark bite ball valves next week in a 34 unit
apartment complex to isolate a unit to make repairs ... they work
just fine for me.....

BILL dont worry about it... 
sit back and have a beer or 
smoke a blunt..... .


----------



## Tommy plumber

I'm with you Bill. It really is sad what is happening to this trade. It is cheapening by the year. My license is not worth what a master plumbing license was worth in years past. 


With so many hacks running around trying their hand at plumbing, it's a wonder that plumbing companies keep on going. Just the other day a man had me looking at a small re-model, he and his wife bought a small house so they could turn it into a ladies' hair salon. This man's wife cuts hair. They had a painter installing CPVC water lines for this salon! After it became clear that the painter couldn't get it all done and he was in over his head, they called me. When I gave an estimate of around $1400 to do the work, they about near fell over. "We'll think about it and give you a call." That was {4} weeks ago.


With glue together pipes, compression angle stops, shark-bites and my all-time favorite one to hate: flex supply lines, everyone thinks they can do plumbing.


What really p!$$es me off is all the different manufacturers who are trying to re-invent waterpiping systems. PB, pex, CPVC, Uponor, etc. But no one is telling A/C contractors to use this stuff for their line sets on the central A/C system. That has been copper with brazed connections and nobody but nobody is trying to change that! Yet my trade is a free-for-all. HD, Lowe's the plumbing supply houses will sell plumbing supplies to anyone who walks in the door. Not so with A/C refrigerant and other A/C supplies.


One more rant, an older man called me today. He has {2} outside hose spigots that he purchased and wants his new ones installed on his house. He asks how much. I don't play along, I say that I have to come out and look at it. He says that he "just ran off some guy who wanted $145.00." I responded, "I can't work for you. You'd better keep calling around."


I'm done.


----------



## Debo22

Tommy plumber said:


> What really p!$$es me off is all the different manufacturers who are trying to re-invent waterpiping systems. PB, pex, CPVC, Uponor, etc. But no one is telling A/C contractors to use this stuff for their line sets on the central A/C system. That has been copper with brazed connections and nobody but nobody is trying to change that! Yet my trade is a free-for-all. HD, Lowe's the plumbing supply houses will sell plumbing supplies to anyone who walks in the door. Not so with A/C refrigerant and other A/C


A/C tried to do the same thing in the late 80's or early 90's using plastic for the line sets just on the suction line. I think it was Carrier. It was a definite fail. We still see them around now and then. I'm sure the hvac engineers are still trying to come up with something to dumb down the trade. Home Depot online sells all the a/c components to do it yourself also. I'm not sure how they get around the EPA refrigerant licensing but they do.


----------



## dhal22

I took a call from a contractor who was looking for a plumbing co to do a small subdivision (10 homes). I told him licensed plumbers left that part of the trade years ago. No way would he pay for one of my licensed plumbers to plumb a subdivision house. Most subdivision homes are plumbed by unlicensed undocumented plumbers and he should look for a company that offers that.


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL

Master Mark said:


> what are you worried about...
> you and me will be dead and gone before this takes
> a bite out of our income.....
> thats someone elses problem...
> I got to install 2 1 1/4 shark bite ball valves next week in a 34 unit
> apartment complex to isolate a unit to make repairs ... they work
> just fine for me.....
> BILL dont worry about it...
> Mark, I'm not worried about it from a money standpoint
> {income}. You mention using sharkbites to isolate a unit to make repairs. I would assume those valves are acessible. Using this system for whole house will in my mind be a total disaster as most will be inaccessible.
> Just think back a few years when the post on freezing and pressing fitts on was discussed. Somebody on the Zone took 1/2 copper, shark bites and Viega, assembled same put pressure on .. and put it all in a freezer. What were the results? Sharkbite was destroyed, Viega pushed off, Copper did have a swelled up cap but the joint did not let loose. Nor did the copper split. They say that a freeze will not harm Pex but how about the fitts pushing off? How much damage will result when the thaw comes? Yeh your right I, and maybe you will be dead, but my soul will still say I told you so in 2017.


----------



## GAN

dhal22 said:


> I took a call from a contractor who was looking for a plumbing co to do a small subdivision (10 homes). I told him licensed plumbers left that part of the trade years ago. No way would he pay for one of my licensed plumbers to plumb a subdivision house. Most subdivision homes are plumbed by unlicensed undocumented plumbers and he should look for a company that offers that.



Not in this part of the U.S. Any plumbing less an owner occupant must be installed by a licensed individual. Of course the Apartment managers get by with repairs, but no new work.

Now you may see non-union doing most of the residential work instead of union.

As far as PEX and other advances, ti sure does cut down on the craftsmanship required and I for sure don't know how to keep ahead of it. Same type of thing when the industry went from cast, lead & galvanized to PVC. If you would have told me I would need to know how to change out a circuit board 25 years ago for plumbing, I would have said you nuts. maybe more focus for us on the technical part of diagnostics will come into play.


----------



## OpenSights

I'm a little surprised about this new, but not entirely. My Master dabbled in new constitution years ago and said it's just not worth it. You have to use the cheapest, lowest quality material just to compete. Some of the new construction houses I've been in lately I'm just appalled at what I see. All done to code, but oh my word! If the entire plumbing system, at least the potable side, lasts a decade I'd be surprised. Now new construction from ten years ago is a different story when it comes to plumbing.

With this and current new construction that I see is just guaranteed future money in the bank for service plumbers. Sure people's insurance rates will go up, but they are the stupid ones who buy crap new houses.

No offense intended at all to you new construction guys here. It's a sad thing for all of us. We switched to the stupid crimp ring system instead of everloc for two reasons, supply and competition. With everloc a whole house repipe costs almost as much as sweating copper.


----------



## GAN

I am not seeing a lot of PEX in my area. The largest job was a 3 story motel, first floor ceiling PVC & CPVC then off the those main lines valves and up to each of the units.

Houses for the main part are still copper or at least CPVC, with plastic water services.

I don't know about the long term reliability of PEX, but CPVC, when I was still in the field with a previous developer we did many 4 family ranch style adaptable apartments (some 20 years ago), all CPVC except for the first 16" above the water heater. Back when all you had was female and male CPVC adapters. The only issue we ever had was splitting the female adapters if they were to tight. Went to all male CPVC adapters, problems solved and the units are still up and running.

One thing in today's market, you have to be fast. Not bragging, but my crew of 3 could rough in a 2.5 bathroom ranch with copper (pre-made drops, valves, etc. from the shop) in no more than 10 hours, Always very nice looking work, all scraps picked up and material list made, consistently. That's the only way the shop made money on residential new construction. I was completely top roughing these out the roof and flashed in 6 hours.

Work smart, work fast. Of course the caveat was, the job had to be ready, stairs in place, clean entry or we backed the one ton up and set the ramp in the front door, temporary power so we didn't drag down the generator, no other trades inside for 1.5 days to finish off all including gas. If the builder can't get that straight by the 3rd. home or so, we would not continue to work for them.


----------



## chonkie

Debo22 said:


> A/C tried to do the same thing in the late 80's or early 90's using plastic for the line sets just on the suction line. I think it was Carrier. It was a definite fail. We still see them around now and then. I'm sure the hvac engineers are still trying to come up with something to dumb down the trade. Home Depot online sells all the a/c components to do it yourself also. I'm not sure how they get around the EPA refrigerant licensing but they do.


When I was doing a/c service, we were not allowed, by law I was told, to purchase a/c materials online and sell/use them in a customer's home. I would also tell the HO we were not allowed to install any HO supplied parts. I never said by law on that part just incase it was wrong info but just a company policy.

Many times I would show up to a customer holding a big cap in their hand that was the wrong one. They would have a fit when they found out our prices on caps and go to the you can get it online for half routine. Many times I would test the new cap for giggles and many times they were out of spec out of the box.

I never did see refrigerant online, but never looked that hard. I quit doing any a/c work around the time 410 was coming around. I wish I had some reclaim tanks the other day on a remodel where they took out a big r22 system. How much is that stuff going for right now?


----------



## Gargalaxy

R22 at Johnston Supply over $600, almost $700.


----------



## Debo22

chonkie said:


> When I was doing a/c service, we were not allowed, by law I was told, to purchase a/c materials online and sell/use them in a customer's home. I would also tell the HO we were not allowed to install any HO supplied parts. I never said by law on that part just incase it was wrong info but just a company policy.
> 
> Many times I would show up to a customer holding a big cap in their hand that was the wrong one. They would have a fit when they found out our prices on caps and go to the you can get it online for half routine. Many times I would test the new cap for giggles and many times they were out of spec out of the box.
> 
> I never did see refrigerant online, but never looked that hard. I quit doing any a/c work around the time 410 was coming around. I wish I had some reclaim tanks the other day on a remodel where they took out a big r22 system. How much is that stuff going for right now?


I haven't heard any laws against installing online or homeowner supplied parts. Sometimes people call for a price to install a furnace, coil, and condenser they are planning to buy online (usually a Goodman). I let them know the manufacturer voids warranties for equipment purchased online.


----------



## Debo22

Gargalaxy said:


> R22 at Johnston Supply over $600, almost $700.


I haven't bought any this year but the price usually goes down toward the end of the year. I was told if the r-22 manufacturer doesn't sell the amount they made the EPA only allows them to make what was sold the previous year. So they drop the price to move volume before year end.


----------



## OpenSights

Debo22 said:


> I haven't bought any this year but the price usually goes down toward the end of the year. I was told if the r-22 manufacturer doesn't sell the amount they made the EPA only allows them to make what was sold the previous year. So they drop the price to move volume before year end.


Good 'ol government. I know nothing about a/c or hvac but is r-22 the old bad stuff they want to do away with? 

Well I know three things about hvac... when a furnace isn't working right to let the HO know, for some reason HVAC guy's around me hate water heaters, and I don't **** with that ****!


----------



## Debo22

OpenSights said:


> Good 'ol government. I know nothing about a/c or hvac but is r-22 the old bad stuff they want to do away with?
> 
> Well I know three things about hvac... when a furnace isn't working right to let the HO know, for some reason HVAC guy's around me hate water heaters, and I don't **** with that ****!


Yes, supposed to be phased out in the next few years. 

When I got in the trade 20 something years ago if you wanted to do residential heating and an air you had to be a plumber also. You wouldn't survive the spring and fall in this climate zone doing hvac only.

Yesterday I changed out a primary heat exchanger in a Rinnai. Customer said the plumbers he called didn't want to work on them at all. I told him with my hvac background I'm used to working with the electronics.


----------



## OpenSights

Very true where you are about the seasons... I always had a big laugh seeing all the people walking around in down coats when it was 55 and I'm walking around in shorts and a tee shirt. Hated living in SoCal, but really looking forward to our trip in December.

I'm glad I don't have to mess with that electronic crap.


----------



## Debo22

OpenSights said:


> Very true where you are about the seasons... I always had a big laugh seeing all the people walking around in down coats when it was 55 and I'm walking around in shorts and a tee shirt. Hated living in SoCal, but really looking forward to our trip in December.
> 
> I'm glad I don't have to mess with that electronic crap.


I'm SoCal wussified, I don't run the furnace while I sleep but I wake up in the morning and it's 65 in the house I'm freezing and turn on the heat. Born and raised here, so that's 45 years in this climate zone. 

On a separate note, if you have any questions about your heat/air feel free to pm me.


----------



## sparky

Tommy plumber said:


> I'm with you Bill. It really is sad what is happening to this trade. It is cheapening by the year. My license is not worth what a master plumbing license was worth in years past.
> 
> 
> With so many hacks running around trying their hand at plumbing, it's a wonder that plumbing companies keep on going. Just the other day a man had me looking at a small re-model, he and his wife bought a small house so they could turn it into a ladies' hair salon. This man's wife cuts hair. They had a painter installing CPVC water lines for this salon! After it became clear that the painter couldn't get it all done and he was in over his head, they called me. When I gave an estimate of around $1400 to do the work, they about near fell over. "We'll think about it and give you a call." That was {4} weeks ago.
> 
> 
> With glue together pipes, compression angle stops, shark-bites and my all-time favorite one to hate: flex supply lines, everyone thinks they can do plumbing.
> 
> 
> What really p!$$es me off is all the different manufacturers who are trying to re-invent waterpiping systems. PB, pex, CPVC, Uponor, etc. But no one is telling A/C contractors to use this stuff for their line sets on the central A/C system. That has been copper with brazed connections and nobody but nobody is trying to change that! Yet my trade is a free-for-all. HD, Lowe's the plumbing supply houses will sell plumbing supplies to anyone who walks in the door. Not so with A/C refrigerant and other A/C supplies.
> 
> 
> One more rant, an older man called me today. He has {2} outside hose spigots that he purchased and wants his new ones installed on his house. He asks how much. I don't play along, I say that I have to come out and look at it. He says that he "just ran off some guy who wanted $145.00." I responded, "I can't work for you. You'd better keep calling around."
> 
> 
> I'm done.


Agreee all the way,been saying same thing for yrs now,but nothin changes sadly :whistling2::furious:


----------



## Mainz

GAN said:


> I am not seeing a lot of PEX in my area. The largest job was a 3 story motel, first floor ceiling PVC & CPVC then off the those main lines valves and up to each of the units.
> 
> Houses for the main part are still copper or at least CPVC, with plastic water services.
> 
> I don't know about the long term reliability of PEX, but CPVC, when I was still in the field with a previous developer we did many 4 family ranch style adaptable apartments (some 20 years ago), all CPVC except for the first 16" above the water heater. Back when all you had was female and male CPVC adapters. The only issue we ever had was splitting the female adapters if they were to tight. Went to all male CPVC adapters, problems solved and the units are still up and running.
> 
> One thing in today's market, you have to be fast. Not bragging, but my crew of 3 could rough in a 2.5 bathroom ranch with copper (pre-made drops, valves, etc. from the shop) in no more than 10 hours, Always very nice looking work, all scraps picked up and material list made, consistently. That's the only way the shop made money on residential new construction. I was completely top roughing these out the roof and flashed in 6 hours.
> 
> Work smart, work fast. Of course the caveat was, the job had to be ready, stairs in place, clean entry or we backed the one ton up and set the ramp in the front door, temporary power so we didn't drag down the generator, no other trades inside for 1.5 days to finish off all including gas. If the builder can't get that straight by the 3rd. home or so, we would not continue to work for them.


I agree on this. today is all about being fast an convenient. Shut-off times are annoying for me and the client. At the end quality (experience, knowledge, being positive) will always succeed. however, just like the world is moving forward it is important to also move forward and always be informed about the newest trend. I just now started to really understand how to work with stainless steel pressfittings m-contour. I actually needed to pay for that course, but do think I could consider myself an expert now. 

All the best for all of you though. creating real value !!! :thumbsup:


----------



## GAN

Mainz said:


> I agree on this. today is all about being fast an convenient. Shut-off times are annoying for me and the client. At the end quality (experience, knowledge, being positive) will always succeed. however, just like the world is moving forward it is important to also move forward and always be informed about the newest trend. I just now started to really understand how to work with stainless steel pressfittings m-contour. I actually needed to pay for that course, but do think I could consider myself an expert now.
> 
> All the best for all of you though. creating real value !!! :thumbsup:




How about following procedure and posting an intro?????


http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/new-member-welcome-please-read-29585/


http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/why-post-intro-11368/


----------



## Gargalaxy

GAN said:


> How about following procedure and posting an intro?????
> 
> 
> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/new-member-welcome-please-read-29585/
> 
> 
> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/why-post-intro-11368/


Gan, experts don't follow any rules....next time we see this short term expert will be dropping any link.


----------



## Mainz

Sorry I missed that one. I will introduce myself shortly, however need to warn you, i am pretty boring


----------



## Mainz

Gargalaxy said:


> Gan, experts don't follow any rules....next time we see this short term expert will be dropping any link.


the friendliness of this community is surely indicating: these are experts. 

No worries I am not a link dropper. As soon as I drop a link just kick me
:thumbup:


----------



## GAN

Mainz said:


> the friendliness of this community is surely indicating: these are experts.
> 
> No worries I am not a link dropper. As soon as I drop a link just kick me
> :thumbup:



Well, your disrespecting the community by not posting an intro as "asked".

Just an observation, your vague, have not really contributed anything useful, seem to almost talk in the third party, seem to post quotes just to agree hoping for acceptance. :vs_no_no_no:


----------



## Mainz

Posted intro, and more will follow. FYI English not my first language.


----------



## GAN

Nothing newer than this one, which was light...?

http://http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/new-forum-73522/#post1081298


----------



## Protech

It's a great time to be in the service business.


----------



## Master Mark

Protech said:


> It's a great time to be in the service business.



It really is a great time to be a service plumber...
No body knows their asses from their elbows around here how to 
make even simple repairs.... 

I just went out last week where some 
handyman dumbass tried to use purple primer to glue a cpvc shut off valve to an 1/2 inch aquapex line on the second floor of a house.... It held for a few minutes then flooded the hell out of the house...... 

Then I get called and they say ....please just fix it asap and send us the bill


So Where have you been??


----------



## Oorgnid

Master Mark said:


> Protech said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a great time to be in the service business.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It really is a great time to be a service plumber...
> No body knows their asses from their elbows around here how to
> make even simple repairs....
> 
> I just went out last week where some
> handyman dumbass tried to use purple primer to glue a cpvc shut off valve to an 1/2 inch aquapex line on the second floor of a house.... It held for a few minutes then flooded the hell out of the house......
> 
> Then I get called and they say ....please just fix it asap and send us the bill
> 
> 
> So Where have you been??
Click to expand...

I really wish I could do more service. I miss the service field. Unfortunately my boss no longer advertises and. We mostly just do renos and new construction. ?


----------



## Master Mark

Oorgnid said:


> I really wish I could do more service. I miss the service field. Unfortunately my boss no longer advertises and. We mostly just do renos and new construction. ?[/QU
> 
> 
> things sometimes go good in service and sometimes they dont
> but today I was in the " Zen matrix" and everything flowed very well I could do no wrong... I was Just fooling around with minor leaks and stopped up drains and things... but before I knew what happened, I had done 5 service calls from 11 to 4
> all averaging about 200 each ...
> 
> .then at 4 pm, I went and got my hair cut..:thumbup:.


----------



## Cajunhiker

Protech said:


> It's a great time to be in the service business.


The OP makes a good point about the dumbing down of the plumbing trade. But tradesmen will always have good paying jobs and steady work. The simple reason is most people are lazy. If it involves a shovel, tight spaces, ridiculous heights, poop, attic work in July & August, heavy fixtures, expensive tools, etc ... call a plumber.


----------



## indyjim

Hell, DIY stores have given us tons of work. They "show them how" and shore up the confidence just enough to be dangerous. Instead of replacing a faucet, you're cutting out drywall replacing copper, patching the back of the cabinet, and replacing the faucet because after 17 trips to the hardware store they now hate plumbing, and learned an expensive lesson. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Master Mark

Cajunhiker said:


> The OP makes a good point about the dumbing down of the plumbing trade. But tradesmen will always have good paying jobs and steady work. The simple reason is most people are lazy. If it involves a shovel, tight spaces, ridiculous heights, poop, attic work in July & August, heavy fixtures, expensive tools, etc ... call a plumber.




Its funny to watch.... most everyone is lazy and they are basically brainwashed and terrified of getting any kind of dirt on them
they cant even break out in a slight sweat without having to bathe afterwards and lots of folks take 2 and 3 baths a day...... 

The only real physical activity that most are willing to do is have sex, and as much as possible just like they see on TV..., and they will jump at the chance...with even a total stranger..... 

offer them a part in a ***x o movie and they will gladly jump in the sack with a whole crowd of god knows what ......

talk about getting dirty I dont think any amount of hot water could wash that kind of stink off... ,:blink::blink:

but they dont see it that way.... because its sex..:laughing::laughing:.


I think I would rather dig a ditch.....:laughing:.


----------



## asapmarty

Unfortunitly you are incorrect about a/c line set connections. There are now approved press fittings for a/c.


----------



## ace4548

This is true.. I just saw a box with our HVAC service guy... Also see they make med gas fittings pro press as well... But so far they are so high priced.. They are used sparingly.


----------



## Debo22

ace4548 said:


> This is true.. I just saw a box with our HVAC service guy... Also see they make med gas fittings pro press as well... But so far they are so high priced.. They are used sparingly.


I'll wait to see if they stand the test of time. Some plumbers aren't going with press fittings and we're only worried about around 80psi. When there's a blockage in the hvac system we see 500psi+. In residential and light commercial brazing lines is basic.


----------



## Eddy k

After routing all your piping some hospitals require that we use the pro press fittings for the final tie in to minimize shut down. And once you do final tie in helps with not having to purge mainline.


----------



## ace4548

I'm curious about those Med Gas fittings. I haven't personally seen them.. Is there a casing around them, so to protect against heat? The main reason we braze vs solder those joints anyways.


----------



## Eddy k

When I said pro press for med gas I was being generic the system that is approved here in New Mexico is called lol ring, plenty of information on YouTube about it.


----------



## Eddy k

Lok ring


----------



## Gargalaxy

Went to Lowe's yesterday to get some materials (working on my garage) and passed by the plumbing island.... :no:









All sizes from 1.5 up and all kind of fittings.


----------



## OpenSights

Heard of them, haven't seen them yet. Looks like I'm going to have to change over stock to keep up with the times.:no:

Industry needs to start screwing with other trades like the insurance system and government. See how they like it. Quick disconnect polititan, sounds good to me. Just sayin.


----------



## justme

Gargalaxy said:


> Went to Lowe's yesterday to get some materials (working on my garage) and passed by the plumbing island.... :no:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All sizes from 1.5 up and all kind of fittings.



This is a service plumbers dream for future repair work, just like shark bites.


----------



## 5onthefloor

I wonder if this is what the older guys thought when they first saw Tyseal, no hub bands, then PVC

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## skoronesa

We use viega fostapex with brass fittings, not plastic unless it is temporary/test rigs. We use propress for service work but not usually new installs. From what I have seen the viega pex seems good to me and I don't have any qualms about its longevity. I know that with uponor the pex is expanded to fit and thus grips the pipe on it's own but I am not worried about a stainless crimp ring just failing out of nowhere, I just don't see it happening. I have seen the copper pex rings corrode and fail on the rare occasion.

Polyethylene is a great plastic, very strong, that's why we use it for underground water lines. We only use the 160psi not the ****tty 100psi stuff. We only use brass or stainless insert fittings, never plastic.

I don't like propress. I have seen many fittings with corrosion rings. I don't know if the other two options for orings are better, I have yet to see any one bother changing the oring type except for this one job we did on a chiller. I have seen pipes that I know for a fact were properly prepped get rings of corrosion. I have seen brand new unscathed pipe get corrosion rings. I have seen this happen whether we install it or one of the other 10+ plumbing companies around. I see this on roughly 5% of the propress fittings I look at that are over 1 year old.

We don't even have bad water around here, it's high in lime and at times iron. Never acidic. Any small leaks tend to cement themselves shut.

Don't even get me started on sharkbites.........

I am torn on fostapex vs copper. I know the fostapex will much outlast copper but I also know that many guys use too many restrictive fittings and that 1/2" or 3/4" pex is much more restrictive than copper. I never see any one upsize to 5/8" and 7/8". I wish they had gone with ips instead of cts sizing. Other than that if you properly run the stuff it works well. Copper on the other hand looks great and only needs simple tools to work with. 

I know this will sound like heresy here but I believe that everyone should try their hand at working on their own house. That is what's wrong with todays society, oh follow your dreams, do what makes you happy, all this happy horse schit. How about you learn some proper skills first and understand the simple machines around you and then you can follow your dreams. I am normally very professional with customers, never swearing, I talk to them in my "telephone voice". But when someone says "don't bother explaining why my waste line is clogged, I wouldn't understand anyway.", I respond with "Oh you'll understand, only phucking idiots wouldn't understand this.". And it's true, ****t runs downhill, the roots grew in and phucked it up, or the pipe rotted out. Nothing makes me more angry than willful ignorance.:furious::furious:

Sorry for the rant.


----------



## Tommy plumber

skoronesa said:


> We use viega fostapex with brass fittings, not plastic unless it is temporary/test rigs. We use propress for service work but not usually new installs. From what I have seen the viega pex seems good to me and I don't have any qualms about its longevity. I know that with uponor the pex is expanded to fit and thus grips the pipe on it's own but I am not worried about a stainless crimp ring just failing out of nowhere, I just don't see it happening. I have seen the copper pex rings corrode and fail on the rare occasion.
> 
> Polyethylene is a great plastic, very strong, that's why we use it for underground water lines. We only use the 160psi not the ****tty 100psi stuff. We only use brass or stainless insert fittings, never plastic.
> 
> I don't like propress. I have seen many fittings with corrosion rings. I don't know if the other two options for orings are better, I have yet to see any one bother changing the oring type except for this one job we did on a chiller. I have seen pipes that I know for a fact were properly prepped get rings of corrosion. I have seen brand new unscathed pipe get corrosion rings. I have seen this happen whether we install it or one of the other 10+ plumbing companies around. I see this on roughly 5% of the propress fittings I look at that are over 1 year old.
> 
> We don't even have bad water around here, it's high in lime and at times iron. Never acidic. Any small leaks tend to cement themselves shut.
> 
> Don't even get me started on sharkbites.........
> 
> I am torn on fostapex vs copper. I know the fostapex will much outlast copper but I also know that many guys use too many restrictive fittings and that 1/2" or 3/4" pex is much more restrictive than copper. I never see any one upsize to 5/8" and 7/8". I wish they had gone with ips instead of cts sizing. Other than that if you properly run the stuff it works well. Copper on the other hand looks great and only needs simple tools to work with.
> 
> I know this will sound like heresy here but I believe that everyone should try their hand at working on their own house. That is what's wrong with todays society, oh follow your dreams, do what makes you happy, all this happy horse schit. How about you learn some proper skills first and understand the simple machines around you and then you can follow your dreams. I am normally very professional with customers, never swearing, I talk to them in my "telephone voice". But when someone says "don't bother explaining why my waste line is clogged, I wouldn't understand anyway.", I respond with "Oh you'll understand, only phucking idiots wouldn't understand this.". And it's true, ****t runs downhill, the roots grew in and phucked it up, or the pipe rotted out. Nothing makes me more angry than willful ignorance.:furious::furious:
> 
> Sorry for the rant.


 












Don't be sorry for the rant. We all have ranted and raved at one point or another about something or another.

Mine were usually focused on handymen attempting to repair, install or alter plumbing. But then again, I've ranted about all the flex and compression and push-to-fit fittings that are dumbing down this trade. But now that I think about it, I've also ranted about customers. Most are usually nice but some just can rub you the wrong way. 

So you're not alone. My rants are buried in some old posts here.......:laughing:


----------



## 5onthefloor

This might come as a surprise to some of you and I know I will get railed for this, but I am not a SB hater. I would not plumb my whole house with it, but I have come across several situations where they got me out of a jam. In service work, you adapt to any given situation with an array of connection methods and solutions. We may not like how they dumb down the trade, but damn I've seen homeowners f up a SharkBite install(srsly a monkey could put these together). As for ProPress and MegaPress and all the other Pex systems out there, what can you do this is where the future is headed. I mean look at the poly gas risers they are selling at the supply house. Those are basically gas line SharkBite fittings. 
These fittings are in the Codebook and like many things, it will fall on us to install PMI.
I have seen ice damage copper fittings and pipe, and it will push off a SharkBite and ProPress fitting because I've seen it happen. 
As a service guy I am starting to see more copper pinhole leaks and brittle ass PVC in homes that were built in 70s and 80s. The plumbers that put that in are either retiring, retired or possibly dead. In 30 years, if robots and drones have not taken over yet, they will be replacing the Pex and Press fittings we've been putting in. 
Technology is changing and has changed this profession whether we like it or not. It's up to us to adapt and overcome to the challenges we will face 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## skoronesa

5onthefloor said:


> This might come as a surprise to some of you and I know I will get railed for this, but I am not a SB hater. I would not plumb my whole house with it, but I have come across several situations where they got me out of a jam. In service work, you adapt to any given situation with an array of connection methods and solutions. We may not like how they dumb down the trade, but damn I've seen homeowners f up a SharkBite install(srsly a monkey could put these together). As for ProPress and MegaPress and all the other Pex systems out there, what can you do this is where the future is headed. I mean look at the poly gas risers they are selling at the supply house. Those are basically gas line SharkBite fittings.
> These fittings are in the Codebook and like many things, it will fall on us to install PMI.
> I have seen ice damage copper fittings and pipe, and it will push off a SharkBite and ProPress fitting because I've seen it happen.
> As a service guy I am starting to see more copper pinhole leaks and brittle ass PVC in homes that were built in 70s and 80s. The plumbers that put that in are either retiring, retired or possibly dead. In 30 years, if robots and drones have not taken over yet, they will be replacing the Pex and Press fittings we've been putting in.
> Technology is changing and has changed this profession whether we like it or not. It's up to us to adapt and overcome to the challenges we will face
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Obviously even things like sharkbites have their place. Up until last year when one got knocked off by a carpenter removing drywall we used them all the time on stub outs. We still have 100+ different sharkbite fittings in the shop.

Most of the time propress can replace a sharkbite fitting. Interference fit oring seals are nothing new and if used properly can work great. You are correct that gas lines use the same style of seal, but two of them. I would argue that 30psi, two seals, and being underground it isn't a risk like a sharkbite in a wall. Those gas fittings also make contact with the inside of the pipe, not the outside which gets damaged very easily.

I used some propress valves today, it was very nice not having to solder up against old dry homesote in the corner of a very old dry wall in the basement of a building.

Everything has its place. On new construction, if one was to use copper pipe, I think sweat would be the way to go. I think that because I have seen more propress joints leak than copper ones. I also think the ideal plumbing system doesn't require a 2000$ tool to repair leaks. At least even the viega crimpers are only 200$ new.

On a heating system in a mechanical room at low pressure propress can be great.

Around here we don't have to worry about pinholing. Maybe a handful of houses in a whole town.

Pex is the future, I am not sure which system. For potable piping over 1-1/4" it may very well remain copper. Aqua therm is very expensive, I am told that right now it's more than copper. Cpvc is another contender but cutting in future stuff can be a pain in the dick.


----------



## Protech

Good luck pressing the connections onto the condenser and evaporator coils. Most units only have a bell to braze into. You can't press those connections.

In the HVAC trade homeowners can't buy the equipment at the big box stores and legally can't buy the refrigerants without certification.



asapmarty said:


> Unfortunitly you are incorrect about a/c line set connections. There are now approved press fittings for a/c.


----------



## Debo22

Protech said:


> Good luck pressing the connections onto the condenser and evaporator coils. Most units only have a bell to braze into. You can't press those connections.
> 
> In the HVAC trade homeowners can't buy the equipment at the big box stores and legally can't buy the refrigerants without certification.


https://www.homedepot.com/s/hvac%20system?searchtype=suggest&NCNI-5
Homeowners can buy hvac from Home Depot


----------



## MACPLUMB777

Back when I was first starting on a service truck, I would get home owners
mostly women that would be nice as pie while working but shortly after I left
they would call the office and complain to the Owner, who would call on the 
Radio and ask what I did, then would say he fired my ass, but not really
just could not go back to that house,
nothing Sexually just the way some people reacted to my personally could not
understand why they acted so nice but complained ?


----------



## OpenSights

MACPLUMB777 said:


> Back when I was first starting on a service truck, I would get home owners
> mostly women that would be nice as pie while working but shortly after I left
> they would call the office and complain to the Owner, who would call on the
> Radio and ask what I did, then would say he fired my ass, but not really
> just could not go back to that house,
> nothing Sexually just the way some people reacted to my personally could not
> understand why they acted so nice but complained ?


I think you posted this in the wrong thread brother. I’ve done it before by having two PZ windows open at the same time.


----------



## Tango

OpenSights said:


> I'm a little surprised about this new, but not entirely. My Master dabbled in new constitution years ago and said it's just not worth it. You have to use the cheapest, lowest quality material just to compete. Some of the new construction houses I've been in lately I'm just appalled at what I see. All done to code, but oh my word! If the entire plumbing system, at least the potable side, lasts a decade I'd be surprised. Now new construction from ten years ago is a different story when it comes to plumbing.
> 
> With this and current new construction that I see is just guaranteed future money in the bank for service plumbers. Sure people's insurance rates will go up, but they are the stupid ones who buy crap new houses.
> 
> No offense intended at all to you new construction guys here. It's a sad thing for all of us. We switched to the stupid crimp ring system instead of everloc for two reasons, supply and competition. With everloc a whole house repipe costs almost as much as sweating copper.


This summer I was working for this plumbing contractor as an employee, a very bad guy. We had several schools washrooms to renovate and one student apartment building for the university. This crook had us install type M copper in the schools when by law and the specs are type L. He had us install the cheapest faucets in the apartments when the specs had a better faucet. He knew they wouldn't realize it so he pushed for cutting corners. There was a lot more junk too....

He had his 19 year old kid(1st year apprentice) He was becoming a prick like his dad. He was the plumbing foreman! He'd always came and asked me for advice because he couldn't answer the GC. The GC started to bypass him and ask me questions instead. The kid was not grateful for my help. After a couple of times I told him the kid was in charge. 

There's a new apprentice who showed up where it was his first job after his plumbing school. This kid was nice, I told him right off the bat, if you are polite I will show you tricks and help you out and will make your job way easier. He was really happy all the stuff I showed him when the bad apples were left to wilt.

Then on another job he had a 4th year kid with only limited residential plumbing be the foreman in the schools and the heating part. That kid thought he was a big shot barking orders even though he couldn't solder copper piping between metal studs, he'd use extension cords or whatever was laying around to hold his crooked pipes. I just didn't care at this point and let him shoot himself in the foot... The kid was always running around making mistakes and getting worked up by the boss. I had to settle the boss in his place a couple of times.

I'm so glad I won't be working in these situations with kids that think my experience means nothing. I won't have to endure this bad employer torture anymore.


----------



## Tango

indyjim said:


> Hell, DIY stores have given us tons of work. They "show them how" and shore up the confidence just enough to be dangerous. Instead of replacing a faucet, you're cutting out drywall replacing copper, patching the back of the cabinet, and replacing the faucet because after 17 trips to the hardware store they now hate plumbing, and learned an expensive lesson.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Here's another excellent story, read this!

I get a call to fix a leaking tub/shower faucet. I get there the man leads me to the upstairs bathroom the shower trim is removed. I see moen and get the parts in the truck. As I'm removing the part I can see in the bedroom through the wall! I asked what the hell happened? He then tells me his daughter's boyfriend is a handyman and said he could fix the faucet. he cut a 24" inch hole in the bedroom to access the faucet. When he encountered the copper pipes he was clueless on what to do! The man was pissed as it took me less than 4 minutes to fix his issue when he now had to patch the wall which didn't need to be opened!

I love my job. I got to start taking pictures!


----------

