# Best/Worst shower valves



## pdxplumber

Just installed my second Newport Brass shower valve. I work with a high end tile contractor and frequently have to install whatever the customer has picked out.
Nobody wants a Delta valve, despite my strong recommendations.
I have installed Newport Brass, Grohe, some weird Costco brand P.O.S., Hansgrohe, Symmons. 
I think Delta is the most reliable, serviceable valve out there, also inexpensive and easy to install. Hansgrohe has got to be the biggest pain in the a**, but people love them.
What is the best overall shower valve?


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## MTDUNN

Here's your queue RJ.

I don't like a mixit. Horrible!!


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## pdxplumber

I tried to turn on a mixit valve the other day and almost broke it. What a terrible design. I used to work on those pieces of crap.


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## rjbphd

MOENTROL all the way... postitemp, crap... delta, crap.. worst one are the Valley faucet, under Kohler... old day Speakman was a mainstay for safety valve, Moentrol use the same design.. easy to maintain.. simple parts.. Hansgrove..as well for Kolher, how many different parts you freaking needs to get the water out of faucet???


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## gear junkie

I judge faucets on how repairable they are after time has passed since I'm mostly service. Delta sucks for this. I really like moen (even mixit) for this.


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## rjbphd

gear junkie said:


> I judge faucets on how repairable they are after time has passed since I'm mostly service. Delta sucks for this. I really like moen (even mixit) for this.


 No Mixet for me...


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## gear junkie

I think they're ugly as sin but seem to hold up well in my area and only need one repair part....unlike delta and kohler.


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## redbeardplumber

Never heard of mixit up here.


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## rjbphd

redbeardplumber said:


> Never heard of mixit up here.


Be thankful for that!


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## Will

I like Delta for shower valves. Think there the best for the money and easiest to get parts for if needed. Never seen a Moentrol, but there Postitemp seem to be an allright right valve. I've had one in my home that I use daily that has held up fine.


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## plbgbiz

I install Delta T/S valves. Doing so with a lifetime labor and material warranty for the last 15 years. 

1,000's of valves in with no regrets.


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## Redwood

If the choice is mine it will be a Moen, Delta or, Symmons Temptrol...

Or,

I'll put in whatever Piece of Shiot they hand me...
And then the warranty headaches are on them...:laughing:

If its a real steamer I'll issue a warning...
If its a real steamer and they are ripping out a good valve I'll suggest they rebuild and save money...


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## Tommy plumber

I've installed many Moen tub and shower valves during new construction; I can rough them in asleep. Easy rough-in.

Those fancy over-priced Grohe's and HansGrohe's with the directions in {8} languages are a PITA to rough-in. I don't like 'em. Although there is a Grohe that is basically a green uni-box that roughs-in pretty easily.

With regard to service, the Avante cartridge from a Price Pfister is pretty easy to replace.

Whereas a Symmons cartidge has at times been difficult to replace due to those hot and cold seats that are different sizes.


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## agonzales1981

We do a lot of high end remodels and additions. So I see a lot hansgrohe, danze and kohler. I try and push moen and delta when my opinion is asked.


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## plu4you

Just installed handscrohe shower valve with delta cartridge. Delta makes great faucets, but some shower valves are pain to fix. Moen shower valve and delta faucets my first choices.


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## leakfree

I'll put a Moen in first and a Symmons last,or use my line lately if they don't care for a recommendation of "I don't care if it's made of wood if that's what you really want I'll put it in but don't cry later".


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## Redwood

Tommy plumber said:


> Whereas a Symmons cartidge has at times been difficult to replace due to those hot and cold seats that are different sizes.


You just need the right tool and it is easy peasy.... :yes:


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## crown36

I personally like Kohler, Moen and Delta. Glacier Bay and AquaSource= JUNK!


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## jmc12185

I know not many are going to agree but I still prefer Kohler. The K-304 is my go to shower valve and the only one that I keep a few on the truck. I install it and the homeowner can pick the trim they want. They have a pretty good selection of choices. I've installed thousands with little to no problems.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## jmc12185

My only problem with the K-304 is they sit so deep in the wall. Always have to offset the riser to the shower head out or else the shower arm won't look normal. Besides for that , I like them.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## RW Plumbing

I like moentrol the best. Are they the only manufacturer that realized its nice to be able to screw the valve body in the wall and provided the ears on the body to do so?


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## gear junkie

plbgbiz said:


> I install Delta T/S valves. Doing so with a lifetime labor and material warranty for the last 15 years.
> 
> 1,000's of valves in with no regrets.


Guess you heard my dead donkey analogy?


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## Cal

Mine goes ,
- Wolverine Brass
- Moen & Delta next. 
Installed all types and have an obsessive hatred of Kohler , Grohe , price pfister ,danze 

I'm the guy repairing so I want something reliable and easy to fix. 

Note : a medium amount of grease while installing any faucet makes it 100% easier for the next guy .


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## Will

RW Plumbing said:


> I like moentrol the best. Are they the only manufacturer that realized its nice to be able to screw the valve body in the wall and provided the ears on the body to do so?



Delta does this also


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## plbgbiz

Will said:


> Delta does this also


:yes:


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## RW Plumbing

Will said:


> Delta does this also


Yeah but deltas isn't very stiff. The thing still moves. The metal is too thin.


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## Will

Once trim is on it stiffens up. Being thin can actually work in its favor, gives it move play


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## PLUMB TIME

Cal said:


> Mine goes ,
> - Wolverine Brass
> - Moen & Delta next.
> Installed all types and have an obsessive hatred of Kohler , Grohe , price pfister ,danze
> 
> I'm the guy repairing so I want something reliable and easy to fix.
> 
> Note : a medium amount of grease while installing any faucet makes it 100% easier for the next guy .




:yes::yes: ^^^


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## timrath

Moen moentrol or positemp valves are my preference. The only problems occur when the cartridge gets scaled up. Super hard water in my area


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## Plumb26

Jado = GARBAGE! I never understood why only a few manufacturers get the fact that you only need just a few things to make a cartridge. Not 10 separate pieces that have to be installed in a certain order. Kohler is the easiest repair of all the complicated valves but still a piece of crap. Delta is easy as long as you can remove the stupid set-screw that gets stripped if you look at it funny. 
Wolverine brass is my favorite design but not many customers like the limited trim selection.


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## Plumbus

HansGrohe I Box 









Grohe GrohFlex


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## love2surf927

Plumb26 said:


> Jado = GARBAGE! I never understood why only a few manufacturers get the fact that you only need just a few things to make a cartridge. Not 10 separate pieces that have to be installed in a certain order. Kohler is the easiest repair of all the complicated valves but still a piece of crap. Delta is easy as long as you can remove the stupid set-screw that gets stripped if you look at it funny.
> Wolverine brass is my favorite design but not many customers like the limited trim selection.


Talk about over engineered. I was on a project where there were 6-7 Jado therm valves man were those things a pain in the azz to take apart and put back together correctly. It felt more like I was building a model or something.


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## Plumb26

love2surf927 said:


> Talk about over engineered. I was on a project where there were 6-7 Jado therm valves man were those things a pain in the azz to take apart and put back together correctly. It felt more like I was building a model or something.


I had a customer buy one of these and want me to put it in. I spent 30 minutes trying to talk them into something different to no avail. They ended up paying me several times to come back out and tweak this and that. Each time I'd say, I didn't build it, I just installed it.


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## gasaman

Residential application I always go with Symmons. 
I have also replaced some commercial valves (Speakman and Powers) with Symmons.


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## Flyguy199

Delta and Kohler for shower valves in residential. I've installed Moen too without issues.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

Moen by far is the superior brand IMO. No one has mentioned Santec valves? High end crap that not too many people can afford. Unique trim lines. 

Delta- my beef with them is there trim is going the way of Plastic, and then on a remodel, i gotta purchase the trim and store the crap because their rough in valve doesnt come with the damn cartridge which creates a mixing issue.

Kohler- there trim sucks. Using a plastic threaded beveled escuseon to lock down a face plate flat out sucks. I've seen so many where the face plate has spun upside down, and good luck securing there valves in a 3.5" wall. They are so deep you really need a 5.5" wall to secure them to a regular 2x4.


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## rjbphd

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Moen by far is the superior brand IMO. No one has mentioned Santec valves? High end crap that not too many people can afford. Unique trim lines.
> 
> Delta- my beef with them is there trim is going the way of Plastic, and then on a remodel, i gotta purchase the trim and store the crap because their rough in valve doesnt come with the damn cartridge which creates a mixing issue.
> 
> Kohler- there trim sucks. Using a plastic threaded beveled escuseon to lock down a face plate flat out sucks. I've seen so many where the face plate has spun upside down, and good luck securing there valves in a 3.5" wall. They are so deep you really need a 5.5" wall to secure them to a regular 2x4.


 MOENTROL, yes.. Postitemp... crap


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## brent_sd

I have a lot of success with any product that uses the Tempress rough valve body, as here in California they stand up to hard water conditions quite well.

Tempress is Canadian made and owned by Grohe, and to my knowledge they are used in Grohe, some Hansgrohe and Newport Brass among other products.

I generally Prefer Grohe because of the high quality of the finish fittings and plating.


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## Tommy plumber

*Hello! Introduction Requested* 
An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/.

The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession)

Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field.

This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is.

We look forward to your valuable input.


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## rjbphd

brent_sd said:


> I have a lot of success with any product that uses the Tempress rough valve body, as here in California they stand up to hard water conditions quite well.
> 
> Tempress is Canadian made and owned by Grohe, and to my knowledge they are used in Grohe, some Hansgrohe and Newport Brass among other products.
> 
> I generally Prefer Grohe because of the high quality of the finish fittings and plating.


Those brands suck..


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## gear junkie

All these likes for delta blows my mind. That locking nut that you can never get off is the worst design ever!


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## Best Darn Sewer

If that's your only complaint than that's not too bad. What's the dead donkey reference? Moentrol is nice, I will give you that. I am all about future repairs too. The positemp sucks and their roman tub faucets with 10 parts to remove to get to a damn stem that I have to break out of there because the crappy plastic swells up over time and sticks to the brass body also suck. I like moen's old style plastic pull-out and push-in cartridge (1224?) and thats it. Their other's are crap in my humble opinion.


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## Best Darn Sewer

Tommy plumber said:


> I've installed many Moen tub and shower valves during new construction; I can rough them in asleep. Easy rough-in.
> 
> Those fancy over-priced Grohe's and HansGrohe's with the directions in {8} languages are a PITA to rough-in. I don't like 'em. Although there is a Grohe that is basically a green uni-box that roughs-in pretty easily.
> 
> With regard to service, the Avante cartridge from a Price Pfister is pretty easy to replace.
> 
> Whereas a Symmons cartidge has at times been difficult to replace due to those hot and cold seats that are different sizes.


I was with you up to the PP Avante cartridge. Those are easy to remove?? We used to joke that the user got clutch foot after a while because they would have to put their foot against the wall to help pull the handle to turn it on! 

The cartridge can be just as hard to remove. I haven't had to do one in a while but its rare that they come out without a fight. 

I take it its not as difficult where you're at in Florida, huh?


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## gear junkie

Dead donkey reference.....

Little Johnny moved to Texas and bought a donkey from a farmer for $100.00.

The farmer agreed to deliver the donkey the next day.

The next day he drove up and said, ‘Sorry son, but I have some bad news, the donkey died.’

Johnny replied, ‘Well, then just give me my money back.’

The farmer said, ‘Can’t do that. I went and spent it already.’

Johnny said, ‘OK, then, just bring me the dead donkey.’

The farmer asked, ‘What are you going to do with him?

Johnny said, ‘I’m going to raffle him off.’

The farmer said ‘You can’t raffle off a dead donkey!’

Johnny said, ‘Sure I can, watch me. I just won’t tell anybody he’s dead.’

A month later, the farmer met up with Johnny and asked, ‘What happened with the dead donkey?’

Johnny said, ‘I raffled him off. I sold 500 tickets at two dollars apiece and made a profit of $898.00.’

The farmer said, ‘Didn’t anyone complain?’

Johnny said, ‘Just the guy who won. So I gave him his two dollars back.’


I kinda feel like manufacturers do this to us....heck some companies do this to their customers. Give us craptastical products then when someone complains, give them their money back.


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## Leach713

gear junkie said:


> Dead donkey reference..... Little Johnny moved to Texas and bought a donkey from a farmer for $100.00. The farmer agreed to deliver the donkey the next day. The next day he drove up and said, &#145;Sorry son, but I have some bad news, the donkey died.&#146; Johnny replied, &#145;Well, then just give me my money back.&#146; The farmer said, &#145;Can&#146;t do that. I went and spent it already.&#146; Johnny said, &#145;OK, then, just bring me the dead donkey.&#146; The farmer asked, &#145;What are you going to do with him? Johnny said, &#145;I&#146;m going to raffle him off.&#146; The farmer said &#145;You can&#146;t raffle off a dead donkey!&#146; Johnny said, &#145;Sure I can, watch me. I just won&#146;t tell anybody he&#146;s dead.&#146; A month later, the farmer met up with Johnny and asked, &#145;What happened with the dead donkey?&#146; Johnny said, &#145;I raffled him off. I sold 500 tickets at two dollars apiece and made a profit of $898.00.&#146; The farmer said, &#145;Didn&#146;t anyone complain?&#146; Johnny said, &#145;Just the guy who won. So I gave him his two dollars back.&#146; I kinda feel like manufacturers do this to us....heck some companies do this to their customers. Give us craptastical products then when someone complains, give them their money back.


Lol nice


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## MACPLUMB777

I prefer moen or delta, have installed jado peice of crap


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## LordOfThePipe

I like moen valves they work great and so easy to service


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## rjbphd

LordOfThePipe said:


> I like moen valves they work great and so easy to service


 What make you a LOTP without proper introduction here??


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## LordOfThePipe

rjbphd said:


> What make you a LOTP without proper introduction here??


What do you wanna know


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## rjbphd

LordOfThePipe said:


> What do you wanna know


Do the intro as per site request in the introduction section..


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## Dpeckplb

Moen are the best for service. However that said that posi temp cartridge can be a pos to pull with rusty water. The one I hate is some fancy a** yuppie faucet that had gold plated parts. The tool to disassemble this thing was the gold sleeve piece that covers the brass. When you use it to remove the nut it destroys the sleeve. The nut had no sides on it, just three indents which this thing goes into to turn. Dumbest design ever.


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## rjbphd

Dpeckplb said:


> Moen are the best for service. However that said that posi temp cartridge can be a pos to pull with rusty water. The one I hate is some fancy a** yuppie faucet that had gold plated parts. The tool to disassemble this thing was the gold sleeve piece that covers the brass. When you use it to remove the nut it destroys the sleeve. The nut had no sides on it, just three indents which this thing goes into to turn. Dumbest design ever.


As I said before... MOENTROL all the way... post I temp... all the way to garbage can.


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## PeckPlumbing

We put in moen positemps. Some of you guys are right though, I have had problems where the plastic swells and 'bonds' to the brass valve and have had to drill them out. Moen is great though for service, moen is great about warranty issues and sends out almost any part at no charge. 

I installed a Kohler valve at my house...having problems with it already 1 year later... no wonder our wholesaler was closing them out lol!


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## klempner

prefer delta. 1700 series, can control volume. find them extremely reliable. never any pressure balance issues. positemp--lots of pressure balance issues. delta bonnet nut: if i installed it, you will get the nut off easily. it's called grease. i guess i don't know what moentrol means exactly: i had assumed it was the non-pressure balanced precursor to positemp. the old push-pull left-right moen TS were very reliable, but slowly get hard to pull. both delta and moen, the main stressor is getting the zamac handle off. routinely have to cut them off. moen cartridge puller--use it constantly but not enough travel. kohler, grohe, danze, pp, glacier bay, aquasource, AS--no thanks.


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## Will

Redwood said:


> You just need the right tool and it is easy peasy.... :yes:


Where you get that?


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## rjbphd

klempner said:


> prefer delta. 1700 series, can control volume. find them extremely reliable. never any pressure balance issues. positemp--lots of pressure balance issues. delta bonnet nut: if i installed it, you will get the nut off easily. it's called grease. i guess i don't know what moentrol means exactly: i had assumed it was the non-pressure balanced precursor to positemp. the old push-pull left-right moen TS were very reliable, but slowly get hard to pull. both delta and moen, the main stressor is getting the zamac handle off. routinely have to cut them off. moen cartridge puller--use it constantly but not enough travel. kohler, grohe, danze, pp, glacier bay, aquasource, AS--no thanks.


A master plumber doesn't know what MOENTROL is?? The last part ot MoenTROL means pressure balanced! Far more superior than pos Posti temp valves..


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## joecypress

With our water we have trouble with all pressure balancing valves. Positemps are a huge PITA to replace the cartridge. They come out in pieces the size of your little finger nail half the time. I have a theory about this. I think alot of this comes from sweating the valve with the cartridge in it. Just my theory? Kohlers are OK, easy to service. Not alot of Delta hear. Hate that retainer nut. The water here welds it to the body.

We used to stock nothing but Moen on the trucks for replacements but their quality has gotten so poor we stopped selling them. Not a bigger POS than a Moen Pull out kitchen faucet in my opinion. Why would anybody build a kitchen faucet with steel parts? Just stupid.

We stock and sell nothing but Wolverine now and have had 0% problems with it.
Sadly, they are made in China but engineered here but I dont think hardly anything is made here anymore.


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## Will

rjbphd said:


> A master plumber doesn't know what MOENTROL is?? The last part ot MoenTROL means pressure balanced! Far more superior than pos Posti temp valves..



positemp are pressure balanced too right? I have never heard of moentrol either...


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## joecypress

Moentrols used the stardard old style Moen carttridge but have a separate balancing spool. They work very well. Some areas just dont use some things. Deltas here are pretty rare.


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## Will

I've never heard if Moentrol, ever time RJ said MOENTROL I thought he was referring to maybe what Moen was called back in the day....


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## joecypress

Moentrol body


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## HP plumber

I always thought because you have flow control with the moentrol vs positemp was the reason for the name?


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## joecypress

The screwdriver stops are check stops, it takes the old 1225 cartridge, behind the big slotted screw is a balancing spool that is similar to alot of others.


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## joecypress

They've been around for maybe 40 years


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## Best Darn Sewer

joecypress said:


> They've been around for maybe 40 years


I like them but what you gain in ease with the old school cartridge you lose with the balancing spool freezing up. Though, I have had good luck removing them, pulling them apart, re-lubing and sanding them down to get them working again. All in all I would prefer the moentrol over positemp being the positemp is almost always a PITA.


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## joecypress

I've always had good luck sanding and greasing the balancing spools. You get a really pitted one every now and then you have to replace.


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## SSP

I'm a Delta & Moen fan for standard residential shower valves, great to service, reliable and simple to install. IMO Where value meets quality most effectively. 

I actually like installing Hans Grohe , as far as higher-end custom showers go they would be among my top choices for performance, but IMO they be the ugliest damn things ever made

Kohler does have some slick styles and tons of options for various custom shower trims. But then again that is their main problem, they have too much, takes way too long to manufacture parts. 8 weeks is typical and to be expected on anything fancy and new. Plastic trim BS makes them way too over-priced. Just A cheap chrome slide bar, COMPLETELY plastic $250 . 

The worst crap to install that i absolutely LOATHE is; Price Phister , Glacier bay UBERHAUS or Any box-store's "in house special brand" , or virtually any random crap a HO can find online....


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## CaberTosser

redbeardplumber said:


> Never heard of mixit up here.


Me neither, and I think I have a few years on you; I've been at it since 1988. I guess we should be happy, I've heard of Mixit complaints on here before.

I like Moentrol, and despite their fussy installations Grohe as well. Not a big fan of the newer cheaped-out Moens with the chintzy looking integral stops held in by a clip. I can't stand Gerber, I have a condo tower full of them and lots have leaked behind the escutcheon, even when they're not running water! I have video proof of this.


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## dclarke

joecypress said:


> We stock and sell nothing but Wolverine now and have had 0% problems with it.
> Sadly, they are made in China but engineered here but I dont think hardly anything is made here anymore.


I had to change out a wolverine kitchen faucet that was only a few years old because the spout split on top. They used it with a sponge laying on top until I changed it


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## MNplumb1

Nothing but moen here. Service aspect is great. Hate to say it but delta is a closer than I want admit second. I love Kohler porcelain but can't stand there faucet lines.


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## KoleckeINC

Why do I always get the galvanized house with American standard spring checks? No grohmix 150$ cartridges for me either. Let's clean 7 screens! Yea no. I like the delta with the compression tubes that get yanked off but nothing beats my personal favorite the two handle delta! Just look how popular it is. One of these days I'm gonna put a page on my website showing how to know if your plumbing has been screwed. Just look for these handles(delta)


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## RobSkii

I'd say moen posi-temp and Delta Multichoice are the best


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## alberteh

MOEN! WOOHOO!

Positemp FTW!


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## rjbphd

RobSkii said:


> I'd say moen posi-temp and Delta Multichoice are the best


Who's this 'wet behind the ear' rooting for the pos positemp valve???


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## Redwood

Redwood said:


> You just need the right tool and it is easy peasy.... :yes:





Will said:


> Where you get that?


The tool is made by Raven Products in Westborough, Mass

P/N: #SYMM/TOOL

I don't recall the price I've had it for years... $20 maybe?
Picked it up at a local supply house...


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## RobSkii

rjbphd said:


> Who's this 'wet behind the ear' rooting for the pos positemp valve???


Dont know why nobody likes the posi-temp? Easy to work on, easy install, and i've never had problems out of them! Still recomend the Delta #1


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## love2surf927

RobSkii said:


> Dont know why nobody likes the posi-temp? Easy to work on, easy install, and i've never had problems out of them! Still recomend the Delta #1


Has to do with water quality, they work great here. It is extremely rare to have too much difficulty removing if you know the technique.


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## RobSkii

love2surf927 said:


> Has to do with water quality, they work great here. It is extremely rare to have too much difficulty removing if you know the technique.


Exactly what I was thinking!


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