# Can We No Longer Repair Backflows?



## MattZone (Mar 28, 2014)

If a device needs repairs are we not allowed to rebuild them if they are not compliant with the lead-free act?

I've been told by a few local inspectors that you can still rebuild devices non-compliant with the lead free act so long as that is all we are doing is replacing parts for either check or the relief. 

Others have told me that if the device fails you must replace it with one that is lead free compliant.

I live and work in DuPage, Cook, and Kane counties in Illinois.

Anyone know what the official call is on this issue?


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

At some point it gets ridiculous. The state is making us snitches.


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## TwoTon (Jul 13, 2014)

Can't help with Illinois but while on an industrial retrofit job in Seattle the inspectors told us we couldn't even re-use good equipment on the retrofit, it had to be replaced. Luckily I was running new water supply and air lines for the new manufacturing equipment so I didn't have to deal with that anyway.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

TwoTon said:


> Can't help with Illinois but while on an industrial retrofit job in Seattle the inspectors told us we couldn't even re-use good equipment on the retrofit, it had to be replaced. Luckily I was running new water supply and air lines for the new manufacturing equipment so I didn't have to deal with that anyway.




re use are you kidding me? good bye :laughing::laughing::laughing: this is not equipment hooker uppers forum:no::no::no:


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## TwoTon (Jul 13, 2014)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> re use are you kidding me? good bye :laughing::laughing::laughing: this is not equipment hooker uppers forum:no::no::no:



With all due respect, you might check out the following quote and link which I read prior to signing up. I am not an "equipment hooker upper", I am an educated professional. No, I do not do residential plumbing or install bathroom sinks and toilets, nor is that a requirement to be a member on this forum.



http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/what-plumbing-professional-29217/



> PlumbingZone is a site for Plumbing Professionals only, who are interested in promoting and improving the Plumbing trade. In our community the term "Plumbing Professional" refers to the following persons:
> 
> * Master [COLOR=blue ! important]Plumber[/COLOR], Plumbing Contractor, Journeyman Plumber,* Pipe Fitter,* Apprentice Plumber, and Plumbing Helper, Plumbing Inspectors and Plumbing Engineers.
> 
> ...


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I put lead on my corn flakes

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## MattZone (Mar 28, 2014)

Well I rebuilt a non-compliant device, paid the filing fee and sent in the paperwork stating I rebuilt the unit's 1st and 2nd checks as well as the relief. The make and model number tells them it is not lead-free compliant. Lets see where this goes.

I really wish they would sent notices to the customers on this issue informing them why they must be replaced, so I don't have to be the "bad-guy" telling them they have to replace a perfectly good 3 year old device that has a bad washer.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

422 plumber said:


> At some point it gets ridiculous. The state is making us snitches.


Washington State is like crazy mother. On one hand, she says gays can marry, pot is legal, and you do have the right to die. But on the other hand, if you don't cover your ass on every job, you will pay and pay. And you must wear motorcycle helmets....crazy state.


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## Steveking (May 16, 2014)

The body has lead in it the other parts are plastic and stainless and rubber what about the water meter in san diego we are allowed to repair a leaded device


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

MattZone said:


> Well I rebuilt a non-compliant device, paid the filing fee and sent in the paperwork stating I rebuilt the unit's 1st and 2nd checks as well as the relief. The make and model number tells them it is not lead-free compliant. Lets see where this goes.
> 
> I really wish they would sent notices to the customers on this issue informing them why they must be replaced, so I don't have to be the "bad-guy" telling them they have to replace a perfectly good 3 year old device that has a bad washer.


Who do you send paperwork off to when you rebuild a back flow??first I heard of that


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

If it was installed before the law came into place it's fine, what's next having to replace old faucets that need to be repaired?

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

A little lead never hurt anyone......:laughing:


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Tommy plumber said:


> A little lead never hurt anyone......:laughing:


but it sure made the prices go up when they take it out:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::thumbup:


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

sparky said:


> Who do you send paperwork off to when you rebuild a back flow??first I heard of that


To the AHJ, who else? When you rebuild it, you test it, and send it off to the AHJ.


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## MattZone (Mar 28, 2014)

sparky said:


> Who do you send paperwork off to when you rebuild a back flow??first I heard of that


You mean you have never heard of filing paperwork when working on / testing devices... do you even carry a CCCDI?


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

MattZone said:


> You mean you have never heard of filing paperwork when working on / testing devices... do you even carry a CCCDI?


Matt, not everyone on this site is from IL, every state has their own code, don't play the high and mighty again. Starting an argument solves nothing.


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

Matt I got a question, I just tested a 2" RPz Wilkins model 975xl, its about. 5 years old device. RV opened 2.4, CV#1 5.2 & CV#2 1.8, Buffer 2.8. What should I do? Fail it, replace it, repair it or pass it?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Gargalaxy said:


> Matt I got a question, I just tested a 2" RPz Wilkins model 975xl, its about. 5 years old device. RV opened 2.4, CV#1 5.2 & CV#2 1.8, Buffer 2.8. What should I do? Fail it, replace it, repair it or pass it?










#1 check valve is close, but it passes.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

422 plumber said:


> To the AHJ, who else? When you rebuild it, you test it, and send it off to the AHJ.


who or what is the AHJ????im not certified in backflows but have worked on several thru the yrs.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

MattZone said:


> You mean you have never heard of filing paperwork when working on / testing devices... do you even carry a CCCDI?


hey hoss,dont get all high and mighty with me,just asking simple question,if you dont know the answer then dont post.im not cerified to work on backflows


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## MattZone (Mar 28, 2014)

Gargalaxy said:


> Matt I got a question, I just tested a 2" RPz Wilkins model 975xl, its about. 5 years old device. RV opened 2.4, CV#1 5.2 & CV#2 1.8, Buffer 2.8. What should I do? Fail it, replace it, repair it or pass it?


It fails because the 1st check must have at least 3 psi static loss *above* what the relief opens at. In this case the 1st check is.

I would fail the device and offer to rebuild it (or unless the village or inspector would not allow it because it would no longer comply with lead-free act). Then replacement of the device would be the outcome offered.


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## MattZone (Mar 28, 2014)

sparky said:


> who or what is the AHJ????im not certified in backflows but have worked on several thru the yrs.


You know it is illegal to work on a backflow device without a CCCDI right?

If you're a licensed plumber you can instal them, so long as you do not disassemble anything. But you cannot certify them or do any work to them.

I don't get it, everyone is on me calling him out for working on devices without a proper license but we all get on people for doing unlicensed plumbing work all the time?


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

Matt what about if I say that you're wrong? If I have the same scenario a few years ago, then I can say that you are right but about 3 years ago that changed. Buffer less than 3 just fail in a new device, any other with more than a year is fine.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

AHJ is an acronym for Authority Having
Jurisdiction. In Illinois, devices are supposed to be tested yearly, with a copy left at the device, and one filed with AHJ.


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## MattZone (Mar 28, 2014)

Gargalaxy said:


> Matt what about if I say that you're wrong? If I have the same scenario a few years ago, then I can say that you are right but about 3 years ago that changed. Buffer less than 3 just fail in a new device, any other with more than a year is fine.


As far as I know in Illinois that is not the case. Again I do not do very much backflow testing and I might be mistaken but I'm fairly certain you need a 3 psi buffer to pass. 

****I just looked it up and it says you need a 3 psi buffer minimum and says nothing about the age of the device.


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

Maybe you're right in your search, Google? What about update yourself and if you have any chance, try to participate in any cross connection event or conference.
Also do you know the main difference between a wilkins 375 & 975XL2?


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## MattZone (Mar 28, 2014)

Gargalaxy said:


> Maybe you're right in your search, Google? What about update yourself and if you have any chance, try to participate in any cross connection event or conference.
> Also do you know the main difference between a wilkins 375 & 975XL2?


I do not understand what you're trying to prove here?

1. No I did not google it. I looked it up with the backflow authority here (Being ERTC @ SIU Edwardsville).

2. I told you that I do not do very much backflow testing, the only reason I hold a CCCDI and own a gauge is so I can perform the service for existing clients of mine just to ensure another plumber does not get a foot in the door.

3. I have never came across a 375, so no I do not know the difference. But I know I could test one just fine and rebuild it if I had to. Your point?

Again what are you trying to prove with me. I simply called someone out for working on devices illegally (without the proper license).


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

MattZone said:


> I do not understand what you're trying to prove here?
> 
> 
> 3. I have never came across a 375, so no I do not know the difference. But I know I could test one just fine and rebuild it if I had to. Your point?


I just rebuilt a 375. I thinks it's the size, I have never seen a 975 bigger than 2"


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## Steveking (May 16, 2014)

Should be 375xl


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

http://www.zurn.com/Pages/ProductsList.aspx?NodeKey=421253


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

MattZone said:


> You know it is illegal to work on a backflow device without a CCCDI right?
> 
> If you're a licensed plumber you can instal them, so long as you do not disassemble anything. But you cannot certify them or do any work to them.
> 
> I don't get it, everyone is on me calling him out for working on devices without a proper license but we all get on people for doing unlicensed plumbing work all the time?


in the 20 yrs i been doing plumbing,i cant for the life of me recall one time where i have seen where a backflow has been tested since it was installed,not one time here in ky,im sure they do in bigger cities,but even in bowling green ky i cant say i have ever seen where one was tested and paperwork sent off to the AHJ.not one time.

the company i used to work for WAS certified to test backflows and sometimes they would send us out to work on some of them when they were spitting off,or some other problem,but i cant say any paper work was ever filed with anybody,not sayin the people in the office didnt do it,i just never seen it and never seen where a backflow had been inspected where somebody leaves their intials on the inspection card


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

sparky said:


> in the 20 yrs i been doing plumbing,i cant for the life of me recall one time where i have seen where a backflow has been tested since it was installed,not one time here in ky,im sure they do in bigger cities,but even in bowling green ky i cant say i have ever seen where one was tested and paperwork sent off to the AHJ.not one time.
> 
> the company i used to work for WAS certified to test backflows and sometimes they would send us out to work on some of them when they were spitting off,or some other problem,but i cant say any paper work was ever filed with anybody,not sayin the people in the office didnt do it,i just never seen it and never seen where a backflow had been inspected where somebody leaves their intials on the inspection card


Wow! What is the use of having them then? Or what stops a person from removing it after inspection?


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

422 plumber said:


> Wow! What is the use of having them then? Or what stops a person from removing it after inspection?


Right,nothing whatsoever


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

sparky said:


> in the 20 yrs i been doing plumbing,i cant for the life of me recall one time where i have seen where a backflow has been tested since it was installed,not one time here in ky,im sure they do in bigger cities,but even in bowling green ky i cant say i have ever seen where one was tested and paperwork sent off to the AHJ.not one time. the company i used to work for WAS certified to test backflows and sometimes they would send us out to work on some of them when they were spitting off,or some other problem,but i cant say any paper work was ever filed with anybody,not sayin the people in the office didnt do it,i just never seen it and never seen where a backflow had been inspected where somebody leaves their intials on the inspection card


 just because you were not privey to the test times it did happen. It is federal law the clean water act. The law requires annual testing the water purveyor must maintain records for five years. That is not a state requirement it is a federal requirement.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

422 plumber said:


> Wow! What is the use of having them then? Or what stops a person from removing it after inspection?


I tell people all the time "a backflow program is only as strong as the administrative authority wants it to be" it's easy for a new facility to have a backflow assembly put in place and the initial test performed, after that, it's up to the dept. to have to keep all their records. Eastern Municipal Water District out here probably has the best backflow and cross-connection program I have ever seen. Well over 10,000 devices within the district. A good friend of mine is in charge of the entire program so I've seen first hand their computer program. They have 3people in the office who handle all paperwork they process like 45 reports per day and all info address, assembly serial number and reading are entered into a database and any red flags such as invalid address in relation to assembly serial # and/or invalid/failing values are then sent to another database and results are double checked and then if action is needed such as failure, a letter is sent out. It takes these 3 employees only 30 min a day to process what equates to 10,000 devices. But the reason they are on top of it is because the district is now reusing upwards of 30MGD of treated wastewater so many places are dual plumbed systems so its very important to maintains water quality. 
As far as having to switch out failing devices that are not lead free I have not heard of this coming out of USC or any water districts that i test under unless of course the device fails beyond repair then of course. However I do know that when test cocks need replacing or check valve covers need replacing those have to be lead free.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

wyrickmech said:


> just because you were not privey to the test times it did happen. It is federal law the clean water act. The law requires annual testing the water purveyor must maintain records for five years. That is not a state requirement it is a federal requirement.


Federal law don't mean squat if nobody is overseeing and enforcing it


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

sparky said:


> Federal law don't mean squat if nobody is overseeing and enforcing it


DNR oversees it.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

wyrickmech said:


> DNR oversees it.


Is that the same people that oversee Pres. Obuma, and Congress !


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

I'd to stop to take this picture. New RPz model with the freeze protection valve included.


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