# Moen Valve issue I've never had



## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

Has anyone ran into this exciting problem yet. It seems the HVAC guys hooked me up 10 yrs ago. Lol. The problem was continuous running. I thought cartridge. Changed, worked fine. This intermittent problem messed me up for a minute.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Looks like maybe a bibb screw left behind from a previous valve.


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

Bad picture sorry. It was a coarse thread, Phillips, self tapper. About ½". All other fixtures are Moen as well. House is only ten years old


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

JDGA80 said:


> Has anyone ran into this exciting problem yet. It seems the HVAC guys hooked me up 10 yrs ago. Lol. The problem was continuous running. I thought cartridge. Changed, worked fine. This intermittent problem messed me up for a minute.


Thought you are a plumber??? Required to install safety valve if ya gone that deep looking into bedroom..


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Thought you are a plumber??? Required to install safety valve if ya gone that deep looking into bedroom..


Is that a local thing? ICC? Tempering device?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> Thought you are a plumber??? Required to install safety valve if ya gone that deep looking into bedroom..


I am not really sure what DEEP looking into a bedroom is, but I am very sure we should not talk about it. :w00t:


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Thought you are a plumber??? Required to install safety valve if ya gone that deep looking into bedroom..


Safety valve??? First I have heard... Are you required to have a "safety" valve in new construction???


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

504Plumber said:


> Safety valve??? First I have heard... Are you required to have a "safety" valve in new construction???


All the new single handle valves have a pressure balancing cartridge. So a spool valve is not needed. The old valves like the one pictured are not pressure balancing.


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

Sorry, not familiar too much with moen and I've never heard of a pbv called a safety valve.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

504Plumber said:


> Sorry, not familiar too much with moen and I've never heard of a pbv called a safety valve.


 Safety shower valve can be ethier of this.. balancing spool ( Moentrol). Oldest one made back in the 40's by Speakman...
Other is temps control... 
New Construction or renovation, or just replacement.. safety shower valve must be installed. Hence, the crappy Posti temp came along..


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

These pressure balancing devices only are applicable in situations where you have 3.5 gal flush valves going off near a gang shower in the barracks. Oh what fun I had in the rangers flushing whilst people were showering. We use Leonard and Simmons in our hospital but with the water sense making us go1gal flush you don't see that drop anymore. Those days are over from what I see.


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## Plumb Bob (Mar 9, 2011)

I would have sold them a new valve and trim...


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

I understand plumb Bob. For some crazy reason I kinda enjoy troubleshooting and fixing rather than complete replacement. Sure I might not make as much but it kinda feels like more of an accomplishment to repair things to like new condition.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

JDGA80 said:


> I understand plumb Bob. For some crazy reason I kinda enjoy troubleshooting and fixing rather than complete replacement. Sure I might not make as much but it kinda feels like more of an accomplishment to repair things to like new condition.


I do that all the times.. however, when its comes to safety valve as per codes , plus looking thru bedroom wall....


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## Plumb Bob (Mar 9, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> I do that all the times.. however, when its comes to safety valve as per codes , plus looking thru bedroom wall....


Not to mention giving the best value to your customer... How much money did they spend for you to repair there old valve and how much would it have cost to just replace it?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Plumb Bob said:


> Not to mention giving the best value to your customer... Ho much money did they spend for you to repair there old valve and how much would it have cost to just replace it?


Plus the wall and title repair


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

I didn't have to repair the valve, just remove the screw. I charged the rental agency $175. Why change the valve? It's a solid brass casting. Not much can fail. I'm still not following on this safety valve. What page in the 2006 ICC is it on?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

JDGA80 said:


> I didn't have to repair the valve, just remove the screw. I charged the rental agency $175. Why change the valve? It's a solid brass casting. Not much can fail. I'm still not following on this safety valve. What page in the 2006 ICC is it on?


The IPC requirement to install an approved valve that adequately protects the user, would not be applied to a repair situation. Even removing and reinstalling the existing valve would get a pass from most AHJ's. if you were to be installing a NEW valve, the IPC is very clear on the requirement and has been for a long time. This is not new news.

Maybe the confusion is the use of the term "safety valve". The code never refers to the required device as a safety valve. It only speaks in technically specific terms of what said valve must accomplish. This of course can easily be viewed as a "safety" valve since it does make the user safer. Much like companies refer to grab bars as safety bars, hand rails as safety rails, and bodily restraints as safety belts. Referring to a pressure balanced valve as a safety valve may have started with someone thinking they needed to dumb it down for a customer (or themselves) and then it stuck as they conveyed that term to other plumbers.

Terminology...one of the most critical aspects of any conversation where the words really matter.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

...


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

I gotcha. We started putting those in a while back on new construction. Safety valve as a term threw me a curve. I was pretty sure it didn't apply to service work but thank you guys for checking me if I'm doing something illegal.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

JDGA80 said:


> Has anyone ran into this exciting problem yet. <snip>
> 
> *In this post you mention charging the association (rental agency) $175.00.*
> *Now question association -- Is this in a condo? Was it built with steel studs ... That screw in the photo looks like a screw that fabricated the steel studs. I can see how it could get in the piping during the rough stages and go unnoticed for 10 years. To me the valve looks like an older Moen Chateau. No balance spool no check stops. Would not be legal today.*


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## Plumb Bob (Mar 9, 2011)

JDGA80 said:


> I didn't have to repair the valve, just remove the screw. I charged the rental agency $175. Why change the valve? It's a solid brass casting. Not much can fail. I'm still not following on this safety valve. What page in the 2006 ICC is it on?


If I was to pull my torch out it would have been to replace the valve and it would have been $600.


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

It was a rental property. I contract through them. I can charge H.O. more and install new valves easier but these rental properties want the bear minimum and the rates have to be lower. It's pretty competitive nowadays


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

JDGA80 said:


> It was a rental property. I contract through them. I can charge H.O. more and install new valves easier but these rental properties want the bear minimum and the rates have to be lower. It's pretty competitive nowadays


Rental properties... more reasons to install safety valve!!!!


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

I had this happen to my mother. I was replacing seats and washers on the hot side of her three handle shower body about every three months. This went on for a while and I finally got around to just replacing the body. A month later she calls me to tell me their is no pressure in the hot side. I take it the body apart and what do I find lodged in it but a bib screw. That damn screw must have been in there the whole time chipping away at the seats when the water was being turned off.


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

Damn. That's how the plumbing gods laugh at us.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Marlin said:


> I had this happen to my mother. I was replacing seats and washers on the hot side of her three handle shower body about every three months. This went on for a while and I finally got around to just replacing the body. A month later she calls me to tell me their is no pressure in the hot side. I take it the body apart and what do I find lodged in it but a bib screw. That damn screw must have been in there the whole time chipping away at the seats when the water was being turned off.


Lesson learned. Next time I see a stem without a bib screw, I will flush with seat out.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

rjbphd said:


> Rental properties... more reasons to install safety valve!!!!


It might not be necessary, there could be a central boiler w/ storage tank, or some other big water heater with a master mixer at the source.


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

422 plumber said:


> It might not be necessary, there could be a central boiler w/ storage tank, or some other big water heater with a master mixer at the source.


This was a single family dwelling. Just your normal 3-2 bath house.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I seldom do residential anymore, but I have learned that when I change any cartridge, either a sink or faucet, I blow it out if possible. I hate crawling, but will go back down into the crawl space and open and close the main shutoff several times to blow any debris out. The way, I figure it, it's quicker to do that, than turn install a new cartridge crawling to turn the water on, discovering there is a problem, and then having to crawl agin, turn it off, pull the cartridge, go back, turn the water off and on, come out, reinstall the cartridge, then go back and turn the water on, the 4th and final time.

I don't upgrade the shower faucet unless the customer has agreed to pay. I know what the code says, but I don't think a plumber can be held responsible for scalds if the customer wouldn't pay for an anti-scald/pressure balanced faucet.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

422 plumber said:


> I seldom do residential anymore, but I have learned that when I change any cartridge, either a sink or faucet, I blow it out if possible. I hate crawling, but will go back down into the crawl space and open and close the main shutoff several times to blow any debris out. The way, I figure it, it's quicker to do that, than turn install a new cartridge crawling to turn the water on, discovering there is a problem, and then having to crawl agin, turn it off, pull the cartridge, go back, turn the water off and on, come out, reinstall the cartridge, then go back and turn the water on, the 4th and final time.
> 
> I don't upgrade the shower faucet unless the customer has agreed to pay. I know what the code says, but I don't think a plumber can be held responsible for scalds if the customer wouldn't pay for an anti-scald/pressure balanced faucet.


Depends on how many lawyers are in the family..


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

rjbphd said:


> Depends on how many lawyers are in the family..


have there been any documented cases of plumbers being sued as individuals or as contractors for not forcibly installing an item the customer wouldn't pay for?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

422 plumber said:


> have there been any documented cases of plumbers being sued as individuals or as contractors for not forcibly installing an item the customer wouldn't pay for?


I remember reading them way back in P/M magizines.. I'm sure we all can google it now and espically in Lawyer's " How to sue and get rich quick". That's one lawyer did with the FVIR water heater ...


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

*scald lawsuit link*

http://antiscald.com/prevention/lawsuits/elderly.php
The plumber didn't get sued, the landlord did.

http://www.homeinspector.org/resources/journals/Plumbing-News.pdf
plumber got sued here


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