# How would you repair?



## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

We are supposed to replace a sewer on an old house for a customer as soon as possible. It is 4" clay, and is only about 25' long and has offsets, broken spots, etc. However, the house has been added on to over top of the sewer, so there is a section about 12' long under the house that is in really good shape except for one joint that has bad root intrusion.

What would you do?

1. Patch that one joint with a trenchless point repair patch (non-intrusive). We do this but it is somewhat costly compared with 12' of new PVC pipe.
2. Convert building drain (pretty minimal, one toilet near sewer) to 3" and try to shove a section of 3" pipe through the 4" clay.
3. Jackhammer floor.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Clay under house....jackhammer floor. Seen too many house additions over clay sewer lines that caused settling of the clay pipe.....replace now or replace later.


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

Without seeing it I like the 3 inch idea.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

Do you guys not tunnel in Idaho? Just curious.


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

Jackhammer...


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

aprilmayb said:


> Do you guys not tunnel in Idaho? Just curious.


Never seen it done here. Could it be because in that area there is possibly 18" of soil max before solid rock? Not sure. I know it is done elsewhere but....

How do you compact your backfill material tight enough to prevent settling after tunneling?


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

gear junkie said:


> Clay under house....jackhammer floor. Seen too many house additions over clay sewer lines that caused settling of the clay pipe.....replace now or replace later.


Slab, crawl, basement, house built on stilts...?


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

SewerRat said:


> Never seen it done here. Could it be because in that area there is possibly 18" of soil max before solid rock? Not sure. I know it is done elsewhere but....
> 
> How do you compact your backfill material tight enough to prevent settling after tunneling?


There are several ways. One mixes the dirt with a hardening agent that makes it even harder than it was before. One way is to use a tool that tamps it back compactly.

We do it all the time. I'll get John to take some pics tomorrow, we are starting a new project.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

Here, I found a couple on my phone that I took last summer.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

Thanks for the opinions, guys (and gals, sorry). We'll see what John Q. Homeowner decides when given the options.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

April, how do you dig it out? Shovel? Hydrovac? 

Looks like maybe I need to introduce you to the trenchless methods of 2013. :laughing:

All kidding aside, I'm not sure if it has to do with soil type??? I would think to tunnel that 12' would take us a week with our rocky [email protected] soils.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

One last note. If it's an insurance claim, a lot of companies say they won't cover the repair, but most all companies will cover access and egress, (getting to repair site and getting back out of the repair site). So the most expensive part (tunneling) of the repair is covered although insurance won't ever volunteer that info. Just ask "Do you cover access and egress?"


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I have never done any tunneling. I have no real interest as I get claustrophobic at times.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

Mostly we hire a tunneling company. Depending on the job, they will dig with shovels and buckets, like the 5 foot tunnel we are doing tomorrow. The tunnel in the picture was 65 feet and went from one end of the house to the other. For that, they brought in a conveyor belt type thing. I'm sure the ground has something to do with it. Plus it's not cold here.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

aprilmayb said:


> One last note. If it's an insurance claim, a lot of companies say they won't cover the repair, but most all companies will cover access and egress, (getting to and back out of) the repair site. So the most expensive part of the repair is covered although insurance won't volunteer that.


Goot to kno, yes! :yes:


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

dclarke said:


> I have never done any tunneling. I have no real interest as I get claustrophobic at times.


The tunnel is 4x4 the entire length. It is particularly good for customers with allergies, and the obvious, not tearing up the house.


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

Seems that labor to hand dig and remove with buckets that the trenchless repair would be comparative in price. I have no idea what the labor of tunneling is but it sounds expensive.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

aprilmayb said:


> Mostly we hire a tunneling company. Depending on the job, they will dig with shovels and buckets, like the 5 foot tunnel we are doing tomorrow. The tunnel in the picture was 65 feet and went from one end of the house to the other. For that, they brought in a conveyor belt type thing. I'm sure the ground has something to do with it. Plus it's not cold here.


Good luck finding a tunneling company here. Never heard of that business model. Nor the conveyor belt thingy...

What would be the cost for a 12' tunnel using your subcontractor??? Rough, not brass tacks.


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

aprilmayb said:


> The tunnel is 4x4 the entire length. It is particularly good for customers with allergies, and the obvious, not tearing up the house.


I would be fine in a tunnel that size. I could see the benefit. Its crazy seeing how people in other parts if the country try are working.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

Here's a picture of some of the stuff he cut out. He's gonna kill me when he sees all these pics tomorrow. Ha!


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

SewerRat said:


> Good luck finding a tunneling company here. Never heard of that business model. Nor the conveyor belt thingy...
> 
> What would be the cost for a 12' tunnel using your subcontractor??? Rough, not brass tacks.


Usually each access hole is around $395, then the 4x4 hole runs $160-$240 a foot, depending on who you hire. That's what they charge us. We add to it of course.

Another benefit, you can test the line before you close it and if you discover there is another leak 3 feet away, you just keep digging and replacing as opposed to jack hammering up someone's whole house. Many customers hardly know we are there, they leave for work in the AM and by the time they get home we have tunneled under their home, repaired, back filled and are gone.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

They do kinda make him look less than desirable, don't they? :laughing:


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

OK, for comparison's sake:

I can buy a 2' patch for around $300. It would take us around 3 hours with 2 guys, in and out and done.

There is one bad joint, and two good joints. If the others at some point in the future begin to see root intrusion, they can be repaired using the same method, in the same amount of time, through the cleanout that we will install.

Thoughts?


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

So SR how much would it be to replace that 12 foot section doing trench less ?


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

dclarke said:


> Seems that labor to hand dig and remove with buckets that the trenchless repair would be comparative in price. I have no idea what the labor of tunneling is but it sounds expensive.


So far, we've found trenchless to be more expensive.


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

Its seeming it would be roughly $2800 to trench plus the markup to the customer.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

SewerRat said:


> OK, for comparison's sake:
> 
> I can buy a 2' patch for around $300. It would take us around 3 hours with 2 guys, in and out and done.
> 
> ...


Are your 2 guys both licensed plumbers who are employees?


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

dclarke said:


> Its seeming it would be roughly $2800 to trench plus the markup to the customer.


Roughly $2315 for the same length of tunnel, does not include the actual repair. So it sounds pretty close to the same.

Oh, mine does not include markup to the customer.


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I'm still very thankful we don't have many slabs. They have been getting a little more common because of the national builders doing track homes.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

dclarke said:


> I'm still very thankful we don't have many slabs. They have been getting a little more common because of the national builders doing track homes.


I wish all the homes here were pier and beam. Customers would save so much money and our lives would be so much easier.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Replace all of it now while you are there . It will cost the customer more money to do it later with the mobilization cost of having a contractor having to go back out there at a later date. Give them a turn key price for a complete system repair now instead of looking like the guy that just wanted to get in and out as fast as possible. Just my 2 cents.


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

aprilmayb said:


> Roughly $2315 for the same length of tunnel, does not include the actual repair. So it sounds pretty close to the same.


My estimate was off of your pricing for a 12 foot trench. I figured $200 a foot as you stated between 160 -240 and then 400 for the egress. Plus different areas are different. I haven't beard of a company to do trenching around here. If I do I'll sure keep the number. We have some crawl spaces I can't work in.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

dclarke said:


> So SR how much would it be to replace that 12 foot section doing trench less ?


We only do point repair. Like I said in the earlier post, total materials for repairing that one joint would be $300 plus or minus OldSchool's pocket change.

3-4 hours onsite, first using a jet/camera to remove roots, then wet out and install the patch, then 2 hour cure time. Actually during the cure a guy could actually maybe run a quick service call, but we worry about the "what if's" like if our compressor would quit and the packer would deflate, and so far we have felt like it's not worth the risk to leave the job while the patch cures.

So, with materials costs that low, it really boils down to how much profit you want to make on the job, although due to the equipment required it is always a four digit number.

How low you come is determined by how badly you want the job.

Answer your question?

I should add that we can also do 4' patches, overlapped by a few inches, so 3 of those plus a 2 footer would more than span the entire 12', but would cost a lot more of course. The 4' patches are pretty close to double what the 2 footers cost.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

aprilmayb said:


> Usually each access hole is around $395, then the 4x4 hole runs $160-$240 a foot, depending on who you hire. That's what they charge us. We add to it of course.
> 
> Another benefit, you can test the line before you close it and if you discover there is another leak 3 feet away, you just keep digging and replacing as opposed to jack hammering up someone's whole house. Many customers hardly know we are there, they leave for work in the AM and by the time they get home we have tunneled under their home, repaired, back filled and are gone.


April who do you use to do the tunneling ?


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

dclarke said:


> My estimate was off of your pricing for a 12 foot trench. I figured $200 a foot as you stated between 160 -240 and then 400 for the egress. Plus different areas are different. I haven't beard of a company to do trenching around here. If I do I'll sure keep the number. We have some crawl spaces I can't work in.


Oh, OK. Seems like everyone's upping their price suddenly. $140 was common, today I got 3 quotes, one for $3500 for the job. Crazy! One for $240 a foot. Still crazy. And one for $160. I'm thinking of starting our own tunneling crew.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

justme said:


> April who do you use to do the tunneling ?


I PM'd you.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

aprilmayb said:


> Are your 2 guys both licensed plumbers who are employees?


Nope, none of us are. We are licensed septic guys, with an Idaho plumbing specialty license that allows us to permit and install sewer and water. Thus, the retro in the basement or jackhammering the floor would be subbed. We can do the trenchless though.

The two guys would be either me, my brother, my Dad (all owners), or our new hire.

Why do you ask?


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

aprilmayb said:


> Oh, OK. Seems like everyone's upping their price suddenly. $140 was common, today I got 3 quotes, one for $3500 for the job. Crazy! One for $240 a foot. Still crazy. And one for $160. I'm thinking of starting our own tunneling crew.


I hate digging but for 240 a foot its tempting. I know how hard dirt can be though so I dont think the 240 is enough. I've tunneled under a footer before and spent 2 hours with a hammer and mini shovel.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

SewerRat said:


> We only do point repair. Like I said in the earlier post, total materials for repairing that one joint would be $300 plus or minus OldSchool's pocket change.
> 
> 3-4 hours onsite, first using a jet/camera to remove roots, then wet out and install the patch, then 2 hour cure time. Actually during the cure a guy could actually maybe run a quick service call, but we worry about the "what if's" like if our compressor would quit and the packer would deflate, and so far we have felt like it's not worth the risk to leave the job while the patch cures.
> 
> ...


I alluded to this earlier in another feed, but when bidding a job, the best way to bid is find out what you need to make per hour to cover your overhead, your flat rate. Lets say it's $200. If you have 2 guys on site for 4 hours, that's already a bid of $1600, before machine charges, sub contractors and parts or parts mark ups.


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## JPL (Feb 8, 2013)

aprilmayb said:


> Here, I found a couple on my phone that I took last summer.


Ohh HELL NO! would I crawl in there with a house on me when the BIG one hits. You guys are crazy


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

JPL said:


> Ohh HELL NO! would I crawl in there with a house on me when the BIG one hits. You guys are crazy


Wouldn't matter. When the big one hits, y'all are falling off into the ocean.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

aprilmayb said:


> Wouldn't matter. When the big one hits, y'all are falling off into the ocean.


Kinda like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMryErno5kg


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## JPL (Feb 8, 2013)

aprilmayb said:


> Wouldn't matter. When the big one hits, y'all are falling off into the ocean.


Swimming in water in much easier then swimming underground.:thumbsup: 
I've heard of the process but never seen it done or really thought it through. 
Me Thinks it will stay that way!!


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

SewerRat said:


> Kinda like this?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMryErno5kg


Oh my word! How did this guy get elected? He's either high or the dumbest person in government.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

aprilmayb said:


> or the dumbest person in government.


No, wait, you forgot about our....

Forget it, don't want this to end up in P&R.:laughing:


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I think he's about average intelligence judging by how our gov. Operates.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

SewerRat said:


> No, wait, you forgot about our....
> 
> Forget it, don't want this to end up in P&R.:laughing:


No, save that until I can get into the P&R section. ;-)


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## JPL (Feb 8, 2013)

dclarke said:


> I think he's about average intelligence judging by how our gov. Operates.


Then the State GOV here is below average.


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

aprilmayb said:


> No, save that until I can get into the P&R section. ;-)


One day we will be allowed to enter....and it will feel like just another day in the zone. Kinda like turning 18.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

dclarke said:


> One day we will be allowed to enter....and it will feel like just another day in the zone. Kinda like turning 18.


You're so close! Just 8 away!


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

OK ok ok ok ok! We better talk about repairing sewers now or it will get moved!

Stupid of me to derail my own thread huh?


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

aprilmayb said:


> You're so close! Just 8 away!


I thought it was 750


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

P&R sucks big-time, trust me.

Picture a bunch of guys in a block building ramming their foreheads into the walls, each other, the floor, etc. Protech's avatar pretty much sums up P&R.

Yeah, you get the picture.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

SewerRat said:


> OK ok ok ok ok! We better talk about repairing sewers now or it will get moved!
> 
> Stupid of me to derail my own thread huh?



.....


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

SewerRat said:


> .....


So tell me on the trenchless, what kind of warranty do you give? How has it proven to hold up over time? Does it create a bottle neck in the line?


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

aprilmayb said:


> So tell me on the trenchless, what kind of warranty do you give? How has it proven to hold up over time? Does it create a bottle neck in the line?


Manufacturer 50 year, we've only done it a little over a year so...

Very smooth transition and the patch is about 1/8-3/16 thick. You can hit a demo patch with a sledge hammer and break the PVC pipe off without breaking the patch.

I have some pics on here somewhere that show it. Search PipePatch.


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## Bigcim (Feb 22, 2013)

JPL said:


> Ohh HELL NO! would I crawl in there with a house on me when the BIG one hits. You guys are crazy


Ive never heard of it in California probably because of earthquake codes. what if your digging under a pillar for a beam sounds scary


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## Bigcim (Feb 22, 2013)

aprilmayb said:


> Wouldn't matter. When the big one hits, y'all are falling off into the ocean.


lol true ocean front property in Arizona


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

If you have an acceptible access point, Pipe Patch hands down.


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## davidokc (Mar 5, 2013)

I'm for jackhammer also


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

Full replacement if HO can afford it. Band-aids will only prolong the problem.

I would never tunnel under someones house. How do you back-fill properly? What supports the section of floor after it's complete? Seems way to shaky. It would never pass inspection in my area either as there are strict rules for trenching and back fill.


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

Relic said:


> Full replacement if HO can afford it. Band-aids will only prolong the problem.
> 
> I would never tunnel under someones house. How do you back-fill properly? What supports the section of floor after it's complete? Seems way to shaky. It would never pass inspection in my area either as there are strict rules for trenching and back fill.


Code around some city's is you must get a compaction report from a licensed engineer. 

Tunnels are commonplace here in NorthTx. I have been apart of tons of tunnels over the years and none of them have had any foundation problems. They wet the dirt a bit and add sodium Benzonate, I believe, to harden the dirt. When they are done there is only about a 4" bump over the access hole.


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

aprilmayb said:


> Oh my word! How did this guy get elected? He's either high or the dumbest person in government.


In his defense... This was an early morning session, and the coffee maker was broken.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

JPL said:


> Ohh HELL NO! would I crawl in there with a house on me when the BIG one hits. You guys are crazy


Why not? Ya afraid of spiders or rats?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> Why not? Ya afraid of spiders or rats?


...


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

Kendall, Time to man up and get the jackhammer out.
Forget about a patch or a tunnel and geterdun.


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## Plumbbum0203 (Dec 14, 2011)

Is this tunneling OSHA approved


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

Plumbbum0203 said:


> Is this tunneling OSHA approved


Yes. Certified tunneling and backfilling. Insured, the whole shebang.


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## Bigcim (Feb 22, 2013)

aprilmayb said:


> Yes. Certified tunneling and backfilling. Insured, the whole shebang.


You dont scrape the dirt from the bottom of the slab right? So when tunneling how do you support the overhead dirt per osha. Whats the procedure for getting someone out if something happens(cave ins)?


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Not heard of around our neck of the woods, to much unstable clay and luss. Plus worrying about conpaction when backfilling.

Unless it is near the slab edge, either patch or jackhammer city.


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

Bigcim said:


> You dont scrape the dirt from the bottom of the slab right? So when tunneling how do you support the overhead dirt per osha. Whats the procedure for getting someone out if something happens(cave ins)?


Actually the tunneling company that I use digs an almost perfect 4'x4' square tunnel. The top of the tunnel is the bottom of the slab. There is no overhead dirt. It is not more than the OSHA 5' shoring requirement. We use air movers if the tunnel is long. I also have been through confined space training several times. 

Honestly it's not that big a deal. 4x4 is really a big area to work in. 

The customer has no indication inside that we were ever there.


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

And a little tip for when you do need to jackhammer inside. Get a 100% cotton mop head. Soak it in water. Wring it out a bit. Toss it over the area you are going to be punching through and then jackhammer straight through the mop. It holds the dust down about 80-90%. Once you see it start to get dusty then rinse it and use again.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

http://www.cleaner.com/editorial/2010/03/angels-of-mercy


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

lol I'll try that. I'll call my boss and ask for some mob heads. He'll be like...what for? and I'll be like...to jackhammer, what else? geez


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

johntheplumber said:


> And a little tip for when you do need to jackhammer inside. Get a 100% cotton mop head. Soak it in water. Wring it out a bit. Toss it over the area you are going to be punching through and then jackhammer straight through the mop. It holds the dust down about 80-90%. Once you see it start to get dusty then rinse it and use again.


 Another tip along the same lines. A wet grout sponge held against your angle grinder diamong wheel when grinding tile will virtually eliminate the dust.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

dclarke said:


> I hate digging but for 240 a foot its tempting. I know how hard dirt can be though so I dont think the 240 is enough. I've tunneled under a footer before and spent 2 hours with a hammer and mini shovel.


If you were a digging crew, you would be stupid not to get yourself an air chisel powered by a tow behind compressor. With air tools like that the digging goes pretty quick.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Someone here posted a time lapse video of a tunnel job they did...very cool. Within the last year. Can't remember who but do remember they used the hilti TE1500.


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> http://www.cleaner.com/editorial/2010/03/angels-of-mercy


So they backfilled with mason sand.

I'm not sold on the soundness of this method unless an engineering study shows me it's legit.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

It would be one deep arse tunnel in these parts. We have little things called basements. Would have to dig 12' down before you could even start the tunnel. Probably why they don't do that here.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

There is a company here in cincinnati that will dig you a basement where a crawlspace is while supporting your house. They dig a tunnel with a bobcat and start hauling dirt out. I would love to do it to my place but it is very cost prohibitive.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

The basement issue is probably why instead of air chisels I have jack hammers. If there's a problem under the slab here, you're running the jackhammer.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

gear junkie said:


> Someone here posted a time lapse video of a tunnel job they did...very cool. Within the last year. Can't remember who but do remember they used the hilti TE1500.







Found the video.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

That HAD to be one of those KH21 excavators Will was talking about that move so slow.


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## Bigcim (Feb 22, 2013)

Imagine tunneling under one of these in earthquake country lol


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## JPL (Feb 8, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> Why not? Ya afraid of spiders or rats?


 At least some of your rats end up in jail!:whistling2:


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

JPL said:


> At least some of your rats end up in jail!:whistling2:


Not sure I'm smellin' what you're steppin' in there, JPL.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

SewerRat said:


> Not sure I'm smellin' what you're steppin' in there, JPL.


Maybe a reference to crooked Illinois politicians and Chicago mob menatility?


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## JPL (Feb 8, 2013)

SewerRat said:


> Not sure I'm smellin' what you're steppin' in there, JPL.


It was a dumb post. Two Governors and a Rep from his State are/went to Jail. I edited it down and it only made sense to me.


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