# What could I have done different?



## Kentheplumber (Aug 18, 2010)

So I go to a customers house today and he says that his building sewer is backing up into his basement floor drain. I take a look and sure enough, there is toilet paper and poo all voer the floor around the drain but the water has mostly receeded.
He says he has had pevious problems with tree roots and shows me a tree by his driveway he recently removed because of it. He then proceeds to tell me that after clearing the building sewer he w ould like me to clean the floor drain to the building drain and also cable bath lav line that gives him problems from time to time.
I inform him of the prive for the first drain and that there is an extra charge per drain after the first but that I would give a discount. He says go for it and signs my ticket.
I cable the building sewer to the city line with relative easy twice and pull back nothing. Run a check by dumping a full wash machine, flushing toilets, etc. No back up. I move on. I cable the floor drain through the trap and clean out to the building drain and check again by pumping wash machine and bucket of water into the drain. Everything is good. 
I inform the resident of everything the entire time I am ther of everything that is happening and that it is going well. I move on to the lav sink and he seems happy with the results so far. 
The lav drain is 1" and 1/2 cast iron so I thought I would give a shot with the 3/8 cable. It was giving me a hard time. Then the sh*t hit the fan. 

The wife came home. She immediately began questioning the husband about the price of the job and threw a fit saying she never had to pay so much in the past and saying that he should have called a different company. They were agueing quite loudly for a while. She questioned me about not using a cutter on my cable and got upset when I told her that most of our sink cables dont have them. Then she wanted to argue with me about where the drain pipe was lead or CI but I left it be. I was in the prossess of getting my 1/4" cable when I recevied a page to pull off the job cause the HO called the office and was upset.
I upon leaving I tried to get a signature on my ticket for the work I had done even though I marked it no charge. They refused to sign and by this time even the husband was getting sh*tty with me. They were mad because I didnt pull back any tree roots. I told them have a nice day and left. 
I want to know if by my telling anyone can see a problem with what I did. I don't want this to happen again. I wasted my time and didnt get paid. and I got a feeling I might get a talking to at the office. Critisize away. I can take it.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Why did you not get paid?

It sounds like they signed your ticket to authorize the work. If they were quoted a price"y" to do "x" and you did in fact do "x" then they do in fact owe you "y".

Simple.



Kentheplumber said:


> So I go to a customers house today and he says that his building sewer is backing up into his basement floor drain. I take a look and sure enough, there is toilet paper and poo all voer the floor around the drain but the water has mostly receeded.
> He says he has had pevious problems with tree roots and shows me a tree by his driveway he recently removed because of it. He then proceeds to tell me that after clearing the building sewer he w ould like me to clean the floor drain to the building drain and also cable bath lav line that gives him problems from time to time.
> I inform him of the prive for the first drain and that there is an extra charge per drain after the first but that I would give a discount. He says go for it and signs my ticket.
> I cable the building sewer to the city line with relative easy twice and pull back nothing. Run a check by dumping a full wash machine, flushing toilets, etc. No back up. I move on. I cable the floor drain through the trap and clean out to the building drain and check again by pumping wash machine and bucket of water into the drain. Everything is good.
> ...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't know how long you've been doing this but I feel you should know something. There are people out there that will do all kinds of things in an attempt to get things for free. Many of them will complain about something no matter how good of a job you do just in hopes that you will fold and they don't have to pay their bill.

It sounds like you did what you said you'd do and you should have demanded payment.

Also, you should have advised them that they need to repair the broken pipe rather then endlessly paying to cable out the roots. As soon as someone tells me about roots bells and sirens go off. 

Cabling a root infested pipe is like treating cancer with painkillers!


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## Kentheplumber (Aug 18, 2010)

They were refusing to pay and my general manager has no balls apparently. " The most important thing is pleasing the customer," is what he says. For the most part I agree but there needs to be a some sort of limit. I work on comission so If they dont pay I dont get paid. And if the office tells me to leave then I best listen. Im new and dont want to get into any problems.


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## Kentheplumber (Aug 18, 2010)

The whole root thing perplexed the hell out of me. I figured it was a good thing not pulling back roots. That means that their attempts at killing the tree may be working.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I agree with Ken. And don't think that some people will not try anything to get out of paying. Sounds like it worked.


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## aero1 (Feb 13, 2009)

don't take it to hard as protech said sometimes you just walk into an unpleasant situation and get blindsided. if your an employee you do as your office tells you if your an owner operator you collect for what you can and haul a#s and hope there house floods. people personality's and skilled trades people can lead to some interesting interactions.


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## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

It sounds like the job was Y and it should have cost X but you got "F"ed!


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## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

guess we all LIVE @ LEARN


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## Kentheplumber (Aug 18, 2010)

So I learned that at any given time the rug can be pulled from under me and I work for free. 
I guess its just motivation to get my license and have more options of employment or self employment.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*they hosed you good*

you were probably being flim-flammed
they saw you comming and had you on
the ropes before you knew what hit you..

those types of people are very rare indeed
and you dont run into them maybe even once 
or twice in your life time (unless you work for builders)..




I have been screwed much worse by a jewish
couple that had their game down good..
he befreinded me and we were all buddy buddy till
the bill was handed to him, which he handed to
his wife and walked away.....

then all hell broke loose...

I just walked away....

you actually have to feel sorry for them to be that way...


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

These peeps are what I call, " professional costumerrs". They know how to call for work to be done, and then screem things were'nt done right. Yup they know what they are doing. Sorry brother.


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## UnclogNH (Mar 28, 2009)

When they sign the ticket that means you have a contract. They agreed to pay the job at your set price. Here All I have to do is call the police they show up and I report theft of services haul them to court and collect what is owed plus court fee's
But on the most part people here are good and pay and are happy the service was completed. People will try anything don't back down then they will pay.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I would have made them pay.... or still would have charged the boss for the call this way if he wants to give away free work let him.... the only loser was you.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I understand. The desire to not have a confrontation is usually a default mode and not worth the fight unless they are unreasonable to that extent. Once you assert yourself after the 1st time it gets easier. Its not easy though..goes with the territory...fortunately not that often.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Sounds just like a company I once worked for....:whistling2:
*****-******* :blink:

Stay there long enough they will probably try sending you back there!:laughing:

Get the hell out of Dodge there is greener grass...:thumbup:
There is a reason why they have a 30% +++ employee turnover...


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

You're getting advice from some business owners here that isn't 100% in your power to implement. You work for a company, not for yourself, so you have to do what they tell you. The customer pays the company and the company pays you. Commission or not, you get payed by your employer and not the customer. If your service manager has no balls and is prepared to do the job at a loss, he has to pay you. You don't really have the authority to override the decisions of your supervisors. If you're new to this company, I would keep your eyes open and your ear to the ground for something else. I can see this becoming a pattern.







Paul


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

I would have a talk with the service manager and find out what he thought you did wrong. ( It sounds like you did it all right btw ) and when he says you did nothing wrong confirm that you will be getting paid as you did you the job correctly and it was his call not to collect. I assume the husband was not a minor right? lol they probable had it all setup. he probably called her and told her it was ok that you fixed the main and it was her turn to come rip you off.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

I believe that you should have attempted payment. Standing there just staring at them works for me. When I have had customers yell, I don't respond, when they notice I'm quite they calm down.
If you asked for payment, the worse they would have done is said no. I suggest learning how to deal with people, such as reading books on sales techniques, and even books on how to deal with people. There are a lot of good techniques that can help tremendously.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Ken

I am not sure of the situation between the husband and wife. That is where the issue is. It has nothing to do with you. The husband made a decision without his wife who generally makes the decisions. You received approval from him. He could not and did not have the ability to defend his decision to his wife.

The only thing you could have done better would have been communication with what was necessary to do so that he could have communicated easier to his wife his decision. Keep in mind there are some people who will not get it and worse yet refuse to get the message. It is impossible to be all things to each person all the time.

Before saying the service manager is weak or ball less there are some things that you may not know. If the treatment they gave you was the same treatment over the phone it is a no win situation for the company and you. Sometimes the correct choice is to walk away and fire the client and give this client to the competition. Obviously this has happened in the past and will happen in the future. I would bet the same thing happened to the last plumber on the job. The company and you have learned to put this couple on the no work list. It costs less to walk away sometimes then to fight and struggle receiving the money and trouble that will follow.

I am sure that you had a feeling about this guy. Use that feeling and ask if there is anyone else that may be involved in the decision. Write it on paper when he or she says no there is no one else to make the decision.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Kentheplumber said:


> So I learned that at any given time the rug can be pulled from under me and I work for free.
> I guess its just motivation to get my license and have more options of employment or self employment.


Having your license will definitely open up more doors. 

Since the H.O. already called the office and they made the call to pull you, it was out of your hands at that point.

In the future, trust your instincts. We trust our plumbers to make good decisions - and sometimes that means firing a customer when they pull up to a property. If there is EVER a question about a customer's ability or willingness to pay, we ask them to pay up front.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

I think this customer may have been hopeless, to satisfy, & sometimes you just have to fire your customer, & move on. I have never fired a customer, then regretted it. There have only been a handful, but each one was a huge relief. Sometimes, you just don't click with each other.

But the only thing I may have tried in this situation, is the Sewer Ratz motto. Tell them that you could find no problem with the main sewer line, you did not find any roots or other obstruction, & you are confident it is clear. In fact you are so confident, you will give them a 2yr warranty (or 1yr,or whatever you are comfortable with), & if the problem occurrs again, you will clean out the main sewer for free. And put it in writing. 
Think about it.............................you just did it for free anyway, so this could maybe have been a way to get this freeloader to pay you, atleast for doing it this time. JMO.:yes:


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

My men do NOT work for free! Your boss does not share the profit with you and therefore should not expect you to share the losses. If he chose to walk away from said customer thats his choice and you did right by leaving when told so. But in no way shape or form should you have been left uncompensated for your time. This pi**es me off and I wasn't even there.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

This is kind of tricky most 100% commission pay with a 1099 and do not have an hourly.A few other companies in this area pay that way. I am not a fan of this type pay scale.

It will depend on Ken's contract with the company.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Richard Hilliard said:


> This is kind of tricky most 100% commission pay with a 1099 and do not have an hourly.A few other companies in this area pay that way. I am not a fan of this type pay scale.
> 
> It will depend on Ken's contract with the company.


I disagree wholeheartedly Richard. 1099 is an independant contractor which would give him the authority to pursue payment from the homeowner. He is under the direct supervision of his employer by being told to leave. Commission based should still have an hourly base or commission whichever is higher or they be breakin' some labor laws. A true 1099 employee is not under direct supervision. :whistling2:


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I know what a 1099 is and you are right.Do you think he knows or anyone else who works this way know of thier rights? The majority of people working this way have no idea what rights they have. They are more worried about making money and keeping the job. Lots of illegal stuff happens until someone is caught. Most employees do not want the trouble to persue this kind of thing. They quit and move on to the next company.It is easier for them.

I am sure Ken fills out a compensation form that he must turn in to get paid.



Once the training is over so is the hourly wage they were collecting.They are set on an island.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

In order to 1099 someone they must truly be a sub contractor. They must have there own insurance and WC, vehicle, and generally supervise themselves.



Richard Hilliard said:


> This is kind of tricky most 100% commission pay with a 1099 and do not have an hourly.A few other companies in this area pay that way. I am not a fan of this type pay scale.
> 
> It will depend on Ken's contract with the company.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I can almost guarantee that the poor guy is a commissioned employee for RR. :whistling2:

Or, a company that is very similar...

Not an independent contractor...


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## Kentheplumber (Aug 18, 2010)

Wow, thanks for all the advice and support. I admit I need to talk to my manager face to face and havent been pushing the issue. I actually expected him to call me in to talk but it hasnt happened, which I'll take as a good sign. 
As far as the commission thing goes. There has been a law suit about not being paid for hours work against the company. Pipe rat was right. If my the hourly rate is higher then thats how they would pay. Needless to say the people who get payed this way dont last very long. If your sales arent good you won't last long. Its kinda like a scare tactic. But, nobody is being forced to do it and there are alot of guys who do really well. 
I have decided to brush it off cut my losses and move on. I'll have my talk with the manager and move on. Next time I'll be more aware and push harder to get paid for the good work I know I have done. Thanx again


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

I wish you luck Ken. Learn your trade and find a respectable employer when the time is right. Good Luck


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Give me their address


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## bartnc37 (Feb 24, 2009)

Thats the kind of thing they should put in all the apprenticeship posters and adds. Get paid to learn a trade and be screwed in every way possible on your way. :furious:
I realize there are plenty of respectable owners on this site and this isn't directed at you but for every one one respectable company there are a dozen more that are pure B.S. 
In my opinion the very fact that someone takes the time to hang out and participate in this forum validates that they do give a crap about this trade and their profession. I give all due respect in that regard but the last few months have just about taken the fight out of me. I've always known a certain percentage of the population were crooks, i just didn't know the number was so high.

Thus ends the rant fueled by a pony keg of heineken, by the way my mini kegerator is awesome:thumbup:


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## john_mccormack (Feb 27, 2010)

*Apprentice*

Ken, I'm sorry if I'm wrong about this, but aren't you still an apprentice? I know that you were drain clearing and don't require a licence to do that, but do they also send you solo to plumb? Service?
Around here you must be in the presence of a licenced plumber when plumbing. A large company I used to work for would send me out on my own as a apprentice (after two weeks riding with a licenced plumber to make sure I "knew what I was doing") and an inspector stopped by a job one day and asked for my licence.
I explained the situation and he said that he was going to have a chat with the company president, but it was also my responsibility to protect my own apprentice card. That could have been pulled.
You may already know all of this and practice "safe apprentice", but drain clearing seems to be a science in itself; I've never done much beyond sink/shower drains. Sorry if I'm off base. A good apprenticeship program is the responsibility of the company owner. Shame on them if they're putting you in that position.


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## Dun' Right (Sep 27, 2010)

Piperat said:


> My men do NOT work for free! Your boss does not share the profit with you and therefore should not expect you to share the losses. If he chose to walk away from said customer thats his choice and you did right by leaving when told so. But in no way shape or form should you have been left uncompensated for your time. This pi**es me off and I wasn't even there.


This pisses me off too. Had I been doing this call for my company, I would have stood at their front door and informed them I had called the police. This works 99% of the time, even if you don't actually call the police. I understand your working for a company and you gotta make the boss happy. Sorry you were put into this situation Ken! Remember, don't let them screw you around too much. Plumbing jobs are a dime a dozen in Kansas City, and you have to filter out the BS companys. Once they get into the habit of using and abusing you, it's a never ending battle. 



bartnc37 said:


> Thats the kind of thing they should put in all the apprenticeship posters and adds. Get paid to learn a trade and be screwed in every way possible on your way. :furious:
> I realize there are plenty of respectable owners on this site and this isn't directed at you but for every one one respectable company there are a dozen more that are pure B.S.
> In my opinion the very fact that someone takes the time to hang out and participate in this forum validates that they do give a crap about this trade and their profession. I give all due respect in that regard but the last few months have just about taken the fight out of me. I've always known a certain percentage of the population were crooks, i just didn't know the number was so high.
> 
> Thus ends the rant fueled by a pony keg of heineken, by the way my mini kegerator is awesome:thumbup:


While I was an apprentice I was screwed around by the same company for 5 years. The same company refused to pay for any schooling or in any way shape or form compensate me in any way if I were to go get my license. Finally I said enough was enough and went out and got my license on my own. Once I got my Master license, I worked for 2 other companys who mistreated their employees and customers both. I'm not the type of person who is going to hand a 70 y/o woman a bill for $1300 for a new water heater. Keep up the good work Ken. Study the code book, and get your license. If you go to JCCC, and take the courses, you will have no problem passing the test. 

I now work for myself, and it's the best choice I've ever made. Getting started was rough, but now I can't picture it any other way. I now have the ability to take care of my customers far more than if I worked for a "abusive" company. Once you do a good job for somebody, for a fair price, they will call you forever. I also now have the ability to walk away from abusive customers, a choice you do not have when working for a company. 

Good luck Ken. You sound like a guy that takes pride in his work, and that's rare these days. I wish the best to ya bud.


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## standard2nr (Sep 30, 2010)

*service issues*

I don't believe you did anything wrong. Unfortunately, sometimes a customer will insist that they know more than the professional who is actually doing a job that they've done a hundred times before. If you encounter a problem like this in the future and the customer is unwilling to pay, then send the bill to a collection service, and file a mechanics lean against the property. They will shortly realize that it would benifit them to just pay the bill and educate themselves a bit. Never allow a customer to tell you how to do your job. which they know absolutely nothing about, just try to be reasonably diplomatic about it.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I wish that all contractors (plumbing were/ are like the majority of you in this site. Understand that you are a different breed of owners. Being in a place like this puts you ahead of the other owners, you all put yourself out there and are responsible. However there are sneaky,lousy ,double talking owners that rip off thier employees and clients.


I have met a ton of plumbers(not limited to plumbers) that have a 6th to 8th grade reading level and are forced to work jobs that an owner provides and what they do is illegal. These workers bust their butts and do not know or understand thier rights.


I ran a businesss and do understand what a 1099 sub contractor is allowed to do and what they must provide.


Don't beleive this happens, read some of the stories that have been written about in this site and it is legal.Maybe not right but legal. Someone working a business illegally why would they care about thier employees?


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## breid1903 (Feb 8, 2009)

*ken you have been job by your boss*

i have some books from www.paladin-press.com. the stuff by george hayduke is good. the more of this stuff you read the better. it will cause you to come up with some original stuff. no guns or bombs, just neat stuff. one of my favorites i learned from a farmer. take liquid fertilizer and write obscenities on their front lawn. it will be there for years. lol. we used to say, wait 3 years. by then they have pissed off enough people that they will not think of you. i would consider your boss for some of the same treatment or ALL of it. your boss is the problem, not the customer. actually da boss will not know what hit him. good. when you leave this company, and you will immediately get a lawyer, find out you rights. in fact i would do it now. you don't have to exercise them but statue of limitations are different in each state. keep very good records. see the lawyer you need to know your rights are in kansas. breid...................:rockon:


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## breid1903 (Feb 8, 2009)

i forgot to add, pm dunbar their address. breid.............:rockon:


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## Kentheplumber (Aug 18, 2010)

To answer John Mc.s' question, around here you can work as a unlicensed plumber for a company as long as there is at least one master plumber on pay roll holding a license for the company. Its pretty crazy. I almost never see the guy. He has been there like 35 years, works three days a week mostly doing backflow testings and rebuilds. Hes a nice guy but doesnt seem to give a rats ass about what work gets done with his name. It really suprized me to see a plumbing buisness being ran this way. 
I am originally from chicago and that kind of thing just didnt seem to fly there. In my experiences there, union plumbers were the only real plumbers and you didnt call yourself one until you got your journeymans card. I tested for the union apprenticeship 3 times and was passed over despite pretty good results. I could never get a letter of intent to hire from any shops and I didnt have anybody to put a good word in for me. I dont feel sorry for myself.
This job for this company was my foot in the door. Its the closest thing to an apprenticeship I may get. I read every plumbing related publication I can get my hands on and learn from the guys who do good work on the job. And I learn a ton from this place, plumbing zone. 
Is this my intro all over again or what? Long winded...my bad.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Ken, I feel for you. You just find the guys that are nit picky about how they do their work and learn as much as you can. find an old timer plumber and ask if it;s ok to call him when you need a question answered. Without a master or jman with you it will just be a road with more bumps.


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

Ken I believe that you should get paid. You did the work and deserve pay.
The customers on the other hand were just a holes. That is sadly part of life.
I am lucky. If there is a job that I look at and decline to do. all of my customers have atleast offered me a service call fee. Sometimes I will refuse it. It is just the thought that counts.

ps. If this happened to me. I would of got paid. Like some one said. Sometimes you have to kiss a little behind to get what they owe you.


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## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

or talk about the possible damages for not having the problem takin care of.


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## pdxplumber (Nov 21, 2009)

The best solution I can see in this situation is to have make a part time job out of looking for a new job. Spent 10 to 15 hours a week making contacts, phone calls emails to respectable plumbing shops. Call in sick to your job so you can offer a free days work to a good company that will actually train you and treat you fairly. There is nothing you can do about customers like this. As the years go by you develop a sixth sense about these *******s and learn how to cover your ass in writing or pull the plug and run. The real problem is working for a company that does not give a **** about you. This is the same kind of company that puts their guys into trenches with out shoring and rips off nice customers so they can cover caving to ******* customers. It sounds like your a nice guy that cares about his work, don't let these *******s turn you into a jaded grumpy cynic like me.:laughing:


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

I like to say that I don't regret walking away from a job, but there are a lot of jobs that I regret having done.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

breid1903 said:


> i have some books from www.paladin-press.com.* the stuff by george hayduke is good*. the more of this stuff you read the better. it will cause you to come up with some original stuff. no guns or bombs, just neat stuff. one of my favorites i learned from a farmer. take liquid fertilizer and write obscenities on their front lawn. it will be there for years. lol. we used to say, wait 3 years. by then they have pissed off enough people that they will not think of you. i would consider your boss for some of the same treatment or ALL of it. your boss is the problem, not the customer. actually da boss will not know what hit him. good. when you leave this company, and you will immediately get a lawyer, find out you rights. in fact i would do it now. you don't have to exercise them but statue of limitations are different in each state. keep very good records. see the lawyer you need to know your rights are in kansas. breid...................:rockon:


*
Hayduke is AWESOME!* :thumbsup:


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I've had this happen to me once when I was still working for a company. We had upfront pricing so he signed for the total amount of the bill before I even started work. When I was finished he just looked at the bill and said "i'm not going to pay that". I asked what he ment and he said it was too much I'm not paying. I said then why did you authorize the work? He said " Well I needed the work done". I couldn't Fing believe it. I had him work it out with the office but If it happened now I would call the cops and report the theft right then and there.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

When I had just gone in business for myself, I had a call. A guys commode backing up etc, so I rented a sewer machine and headed over there. ( Like I said I was smacking new on my own on that point). Ended was just commode needed augered, so made the bill out, he looked at it and said too high. I asked what he thought was reasonable he responded half. I said have a great day this ones on me. I returned the machine, payed the rental never returned when he called for more repair work.


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