# Sewer slab leak



## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

So I'm relatively new to drain cleaning. It was always referred out as an apprentice, so I've pretty much learned on my own with the advice of a couple other plumber friends and the PLB zone. 

Anyway, I've got a 2" cast iron drain that when the ho showers upstairs, the downstairs floods. Upon troubleshooting, I found that water was flooding because the waste (must have a crack) underneath the slab and roots have grown/blocked the drain, causing water to flood up through some small cracks in foundation in one wall. 

I snaked the tub shower as best I could with my smaller 5/16 cable (didnt know about roots yet) but kept getting stopped up at a certain point) once I realized I had roots (a first for me!) I went and got my bigger machine with a 1/2" cable and a c shaped root cutter tip.(I located a cleanout downstairs under a cabinet) I tried to snake with that but couldn't get past the 90 sweep right under slab, but pulled up packed roots in the 18" that i could snake. I even took the blade off and still couldn't get past that 90. I was afraid of getting my cable caught in the assumed crack so I stopped and I informed the ho of what was happening. 

Anyway. What's my next step? I told the ho that the drain needs to dugup and replaced where the crack is. He asked how much and i said im not exactly sure cause i dont know how long the crack is....But I dont have the experience to really know what all my options are. 

Should I hire a drain guy ( with ire exlerience) who can clear all the roots then camera it so see exactly what I'm looking at? 

Is trying to clear the roots a bad idea due to possibly getting my cable stuck? (I have no leverage to snake anyway cause of the narrow access under the cabinet where cleanout was found)

Is epoxy lining a better option? How small do cracks have to be for that to work? 

I think part of the reason for the questions and not just telling the ho that he's gotta cutup the floor/cabinets is cause he's the sweetest old old man and a widow, and his old home is falling apart, and hes on SS income. He kinda reminds me of my gramps. It's just hard to break the bad news to the guy. I just want to make sure he's getting the best/cost effective solution. 

Thank you for any tips/advice


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Does he have some relatives, a church he belongs too etc, that could help him fund the repair? That's ultimately what needs to happen at this point.


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Are you the owner of company? 
I've been in same situation, I offered a paymen


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## Anonymous (Jan 7, 2012)

If it is the upstairs washroom ... why dont you just repipe it to another drain

This way you wont have to break his basement floor


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Stupid phone...
I olffered a payment plan to help some folks out. Deeply discounted at that. Just make sure to clarify and sign everything. Karma can be a good thing amigo.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

I am the owner, and can do payments. Anything I would do would be at a discount for sure. I don't think he's got much family or friends but I've tales with him and he does have a little savings he can dip into. 

Reroute the waste to another waste is a great idea!...didnt think about that. However I would still have the problem of a waste line that is connected to the system with a crack in it. So it could possibly grow into the main would think...or if waste backs up it would flood again


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## Anonymous (Jan 7, 2012)

voltatab said:


> I am the owner, and can do payments. Anything I would do would be at a discount for sure. I don't think he's got much family or friends but I've tales with him and he does have a little savings he can dip into.
> 
> Reroute the waste to another waste is a great idea!...didnt think about that. However I would still have the problem of a waste line that is connected to the system with a crack in it. So it could possibly grow into the main would think...or if waste backs up it would flood again


Many times I rerouted the drain if the under slab piping was finnished...

Count himself lucky it is an upstairs wash room


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## Ross (Dec 9, 2011)

I would cable with bare cable a little at a time. Don't force it you will get stuck. If this isn't possible then replace. I would find where the drains go down and cable from the vertical line in the downstairs wall if it isn't the same place as the cleanout. Roots are a pain in a 2" drain.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

I would through a camera down the cleanout and see what your options are...


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Thanks,

I think rerouting may be best option for his finances, but is it a valid concern of the roots traveling further into the plumbing or...with the stop of water will the roots have no source and may die off?

I dont have a camera and have to refer to a friend for that...but wouldn't you have to clear the roots out first to see what your dealing with? 

I also tried to snake with no cutter and still couldn't get through...although I think primarily because I had no real leverage/acces to get in front of the clean out and forc it down. I was on my hands and knees trying to feed the cable with the switch under my knee. The cable was a good 4-5 ft out of drain(found drain in a narrow hallway under built in cabinet)


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

voltatab said:


> Thanks,
> 
> I think rerouting may be best option for his finances, but is it a valid concern of the roots traveling further into the plumbing or...with the stop of water will the roots have no source and may die off?
> 
> ...


 
I used to rent one when I didn't own one.. I would camera the line and snake it as needed. Just a thought. I'm sure you will decide whats best for ya.. A line thats colapsed or split under ground isn't something you want to abandon..


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

voltatab said:


> Thanks,
> 
> I think rerouting may be best option for his finances, but is it a valid concern of the roots traveling further into the plumbing or...with the stop of water will the roots have no source and may die off?
> 
> ...


I would reroute the line....

No sense worrying about the old line.... the roots are atracted to water

seeing you are abondoning the line there will never be water in it..


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

So glad I posted this question. I think I will definitely reroute it. The location under slab is horrible and he will be excited to see his home not turn into a construction site. 

I will live to snake another day 

Thanks guys


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

When you guys deal with roots., How do you proceed to remove them without getting your cable caught in the assumed opening? Is that just not a problem that happens all that often or is it just proceeding with much caution? 

Also, what are the most common tips you guys use with our machines? My buddy told me to get a "single finger cutter" tip for roots as that's what he favors


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

voltatab said:


> When you guys deal with roots., How do you proceed to remove them without getting your cable caught in the assumed opening? Is that just not a problem that happens all that often or is it just proceeding with much caution?
> 
> Also, what are the most common tips you guys use with our machines? My buddy told me to get a "single finger cutter" tip for roots as that's what he favors


 It depends if the roots are entering through a collapsed line or failed fitting/coupling. Some collapsed lines are so bad that your snake can't get through.. I use a spiral cutting blade for roots. I can hit it straight on with it.. You need to make several passes with your snake until it's cleared. start with a small head and increase until your at the pipe size.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> I would reroute the line....
> 
> No sense worrying about the old line.... the roots are atracted to water
> 
> seeing you are abondoning the line there will never be water in it..


 Agrees, and be sure to cap the abandoned line off at the floor.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

How could you just reroute the drain line and leave a open line under ground. that just doen't make sense to me. Make sure you cap the line at the tie in to the main drain if your going to reroute it..Thought dead ends aren't aloud. I'll just list a few issues if you decide to cap it above ground and just reroute to another connection, sewage smell, rodents and insects like rats and sewer fly's. If there's a main stoppage your going to have everything back up in the dead end. If theres a break in the dead end you left your going to have it all leak under the slab...


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

I agree about the main backup absolutely, it would spill out again the same way if the main backed up. I need to make sure he is informed of the risks with this option. 

But I don't see how rodents can get into the home via crawling through the compromised drain and through the slab since the slab isn't broken 

And I would think sewage smell would have started by now if it was going to be an issue. The roots were growing past the clean out and up the drain, so I assume it's been bad for sometime. 
But those are good things to think about


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

voltatab said:


> I agree about the main backup absolutely, it would spill out again the same way if the main backed up. I need to make sure he is informed of the risks with this option.
> 
> But I don't see how rodents can get into the home via crawling through the compromised drain and through the slab since the slab isn't broken
> 
> ...


Just my opinion, You might be saving him money now but in the long run It can cause him more damage.. If there's a hole in the pipe it's going to stink eventually that's why we use smoke tests to find open lines in walls..
Rodents can crawl through cracks in a pipe and find a way through a hole in a slab, I wouldnt rule it out.
Hope I'm being helpful.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Absolutely you are. 
I will inform him exactly so. Well see what he decides, but it's nice to be able to give him options.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

What size pipe is entering the floor?
What size is the pipe where you are gaining access?

I would not ever consider 5/16" cable worthy of doing battle with roots.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

2" clean out 2"into slab. And I used 5/16 cause I snaked through tub at first and I didn't know where it was backed up or what backed it up at first until I pulled the cable up


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I'd give a 1/2" cable and a 1 1/2" blade a shot at it...

Might have to go with a 1/2 blade if the turns are tight...


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

I did. I couldnt pass it through. I even tried at first with just the cable. I think my biggest obstacle was access. It was in between two shelves in a cabinet... Which was located in a narrow hallway, so I was on my stomach trying to control the cable in while trying to not let it whip me in the face. I just couldn't get a good position on it to push through


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

I'm sure you seasoned vets could of showed me whats up but I was spinning my wheels.


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

what type of pipe is it pvc , cast iron or abs . You could save this guy a whole lot of money by not busting the slab open or rerouting . When I was doing residential slab leaks I ran into this a few times and it is very frustrating but like redwood said you will have to use a 1/2 cable with different size heads intill u get the drain flowing then camera the pipe to see what u need to do . If its castiron its more than likely the joints but when u get the drain flowing you could look at using a hydro jet to get all the roots cut out completely and never have bust his slab .


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

Another option if you get the line cleared and don't have a muddy cable when you pull it back is to use some RootX. It will need to be done yearly and should hold him over as long as the pipe is not broken or rotted.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Sometimes you can do things like take a fernco and a piece of pipe and extend the cleanout out to where you can safely work. It's kept me from going into places that I really didn't want to go. such as cabinets and crawl spaces.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I'm trying to visualize the layout. Upstairs tub/shower drains downstairs and under a slab.

Where is the WC and lav? Is anything else on the 2" line under the slab? So this tub drains downstairs by itself and then reconnects with the bathroom group it left? Where do other fixtures tie in downstairs? It sounds like something is missing.

Can you draw a lay out of the house?

If all of that is accurate, it is possible the 2" full of roots is VERY close to a 3" branch that still functions just fine. The least expensive thing for your customer may be opening up the slab where those roots are.

Re-routing this drain to another location from upstairs will result not only in a colossal mess, but a lot of expense repairing walls and the ceiling.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

^^^ what he said. I take it your sure there are no other fixtures that tie in on that line. In my neck O the woods everything ties in upstairs and comes down together. If you have access to a good drain cleaner you might give him a call, you'll be paying him to clean and train. You might hit up redwood about the drain cleaning forum if your not on it, lots of info there.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

How far did you run your cable at the test tee at the base of the stack? I am betting that you can pull the cabinet and penetrate the floor and discover a broken sweep or the pipe that is cracked relatively close to the sweep. At this point you can camera the line easily or replace to the branch. Pull the toilet to discover which way the building drain is installed. The connection will be before the 1st floor lavatory connection.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

I've ran all other fixtures and the is no problem. The tub has its own line that comes up from slab to 2nd floor. Toilet and lav each have their own line coming up from slab believe it or not, so there's a couple lines Incan connect to. 
Reroutung isn't really a "colossal mess" it's just some drywall repair. As opposed to tearing out the cheap cabinets cutting open the floor, and possibly tearing out another bathroom sink/cabinet that is on the other side of the hallway...and cutting the floor open there also.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

How possible is that I can get my cable stuck while trying to clear roots in the compromised area? 
I like the fernco idea for accessing the cleanout. 

Everything ties in under slab. No idea why it was done like that....


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

voltatab said:


> How possible is that I can get my cable stuck while trying to clear roots in the compromised area?
> I like the fernco idea for accessing the cleanout.
> 
> Everything ties in under slab. No idea why it was done like that....


I use a 3/8 cable on 2", there will be a totally different feel from the stoppage and if you have gone into the mud. If you start to get in a bind, STOP, pull the cable back and look for mud, if it has mud on it you are in dangerous territory and you can get hung up.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

And if you go into the mud a repair or reroute is all that's left.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

what part of the world are you located in? maybe someone here could come take a look at it and offer up some ideas or help. also, I think you said you got like 4-5 feet in from the base of the stack before you got stuck? I have done alot of 2" under slab leaks where the first 6 foot section of the cast iron pipe is rotted along the bottom of the pipe. It means cutting it out at least to the next hub.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Plumber Jim said:


> what part of the world are you located in? maybe someone here could come take a look at it and offer up some ideas or help....


If he were around here I'd go give it a look. Heck, I might even bring him a cup of Biz Brew.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

I'm in SoCal - orange county 
And plbrJim that's exactly where it's stuck. The first 6 feet under slab. I also did get mud upon snaking so I stopped and told him the ho whats up.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

So how did it go 

Did you get it clear? Going to break the floor? Or you going to reroute the pipe to another stack

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Couldn't clear it. Saw mud so I stopped. Told home his options...digup or reroute. 

He wants reroute even though hes been informed of the possibilities that can happen from not dealing with a broken pipe that's still tied into his waste. It's just too much money for him. I unfortunately did a slab leak 4 months back at his home with a 3/4 hot from his detached garage to inside the home. Most of his savings have gone to me this year, it sucks.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

voltatab said:


> Couldn't clear it. Saw mud so I stopped. Told home his options...digup or reroute.
> 
> He wants reroute even though hes been informed of the possibilities that can happen from not dealing with a broken pipe that's still tied into his waste. It's just too much money for him. I unfortunately did a slab leak 4 months back at his home with a 3/4 hot from his detached garage to inside the home. Most of his savings have gone to me this year, it sucks.


Poor guy, It sucks when people have no money and big plumbing issue's..
So what's your plan open the ceiling and catch the toilet waste?


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Yeah, tomorrow. I have to figure out how everything is configured though


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

Don't forget to take some pics for us curious plumbers..


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Looks like he changed his mind. We'no digging up now next week.


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## plumberinlaw (Jan 13, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Sometimes you can do things like take a fernco and a piece of pipe and extend the cleanout out to where you can safely work. It's kept me from going into places that I really didn't want to go. such as cabinets and crawl spaces.


ditto, extend the pipe to where you can safely work. not a good idea to be laying next to your cable with 5' out of the machine especially if your by yourself


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

So I replaced the sewer line yesterday. Was in pretty bad shape and I still couldn't really replace all that was bad. I dugup as much as i reasonably could, (without having to tear part another room, cabinets, bathroom etc) snaked out the renaming section and rebuilt. There was about 4 more feet I had to push through with my root cutter before I got into the main. Once I did I made several passes back n forth then was able to flush out the remaining dirt to the street. 

Now that the line is clear i was gonna run some rootx into it for any cracks remaining. Can you put rootx into a 2" drain?? The can has 4" instructions


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Pipe was totally cracked. I finally got a peice that was sound enough (but you could see that hairlines were forming) I connected the 2" and filled the tub upstairs 3X. Drains great now, no leaks. But I told him to camera the line cause he prob still has cracks in his system elsewhere. And to start a maintenance program of snaking and rootx...

Good advise? I'm a little green with sewer maint


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

Does he have home owners insurance? He may be able to make a claim and replace it all..


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

He does, but you know how sweet insurance can be. I think he said they either "don't cover plumbing" or will drop him if he files another claim. 

I should have gotten into the insurance
business.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Most insurance will cover diagnostics, access, egress and everything needed to patch everything, just not the actual repair.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

voltatab said:


> He does, but you know how sweet insurance can be. I think he said they either "don't cover plumbing" or will drop him if he files another claim.
> 
> I should have gotten into the insurance
> business.


 
I can only speak from experience in my area, that here there are most if not insurance companies will cover the home owner for what it took to actually fix the plumbing problem but they won't pay for the actual plumbing repair. So in your case it might be a good idea to tell the home owner to check with a public adjuster not an adjuster from his insurance company to go over his policy with him and maybe he can have that cement, sheetrock painting, cabinets etc. covered and finish the repair..


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Spoke to him. He said they will drop him if he files a claim, he ha filed one a couple years back


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

voltatab said:


> Now that the line is clear i was gonna run some rootx into it for any cracks remaining. Can you put rootx into a 2" drain?? The can has 4" instructions


I'm sure you can as long as you have a dry point where you can put the powder in the line and close it before adding water. The Root-X chemical foams on contact with water.

Check this link to find your rep and contact him on what to do with a 2" line application. I'm sure he'll be able to tell you how much of the chemical and water to use.

http://rootx.com/about/reps/plumbers

Dan Lawrence is on DCF he's a great guy...

You will want to wait about 6 weeks before doing the application anyway as the cut roots now have a healing cap on them and won't absorb the Root-X as well. They need to be done within an hour of being cut or wait 6 weeks...


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Great info thanks. Would you have approached this leak relatively the same way? I realize your not here to confirm every step but more or less...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Pretty much!

Try to clean the line...
Couldn't get through the line...
Fix the line....

Drain Cleaning finds us a lot of work... :thumbup:

I would have camera'd the balance of the line to ensure the repairs didn't need to go further....

If you are cleaning and repairing lines a camera becomes a must have tool...
Check out the Vu-Rite camera's they will get you in business with a good camera that won't let you down without breaking the bank...


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

I will def do that. I'm starting to see the infinite value of a camera. What am I looking at ....1 or 2k? 

Also as far as pricing for a digup like this. I put him on T&M but gave him a "most likely range" cause insaid I have nobway of knowing what I'm gonna run into once I start. Do you do the same or is the benefit of having a camera is that it kindof eliminates the whole "I dunno"side of it


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

A little more than that... :laughing:

http://www.vu-rite.com/

They may have some used ones as well...

The camera takes a lot of the guess work out of it.
We give up-front pricing on all excavations.

Talk to UnclogNH, plbgbiz and a few other here...
They have them and like them...


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

I will, thanks buddy

Btw......."REDWOOD" Is that screen name because you love the forest and the trees or are you just bragging about the equipment you carry around in your pants Hahahahaha


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

voltatab said:


> I will, thanks buddy
> 
> Btw......."REDWOOD" Is that screen name because you love the forest and the trees or are you just bragging about the equipment you carry around in your pants Hahahahaha


Neither, it has to do with how High in a tree I once cast a fishing lure on a windy day.... :laughing:

My fishing partner assigned the name and I've been using it ever since...


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