# Kitchen sink issue



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

Has anyone noticed when a kitchen sinks duo strainer has a tubular break installed close to the outlet and you run hot water in the sink it starts to fill up then you switch the water to cold and it starts draining again...

Any thoughts as to why this happens? Im thinking it has to do with either the oxygen in the water or the molecules in the hot and cold water...


----------



## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

cityplumbing said:


> Has anyone noticed when a kitchen sinks duo strainer has a tubular shoe installed close to the outlet and you run hot water in the sink it starts to fill up then you switch the water to cold and it starts draining again...
> 
> Any thoughts as to why this happens? Im thinking it has to do with either the oxygen in the water or the molecules in the hot and cold water...


 Originally Posted by *Plumber:* _The way the code was explained to me is that water expands more by flame than electric, so its (thermal expansion tank) not needed on electric. :blink: dV = V0 β (t1 - t0) _


----------



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

(scratches head)(and realizes he may have found a new sig line)


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

This thread has Signature Potential.... :laughing:


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

Ok, just an observation.. I found this on a bunch of new construction homes... And just recently had a customer ask me about why this was happening to there sink...

You never seen this happen??


----------



## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Whatever the cause, it's definitely on the molecular level...

:blink:


----------



## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

Hot water is thicker.

Like blood.


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

I just tell them its either change the piping arrangement or deal with it..
I'm Just curious as to the scientific reason behind this...


----------



## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

City is this you???:001_unsure: http://www.citywideplumbers.com/franchise.htmlor


----------



## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

cityplumbing said:


> I just tell them its either change the piping arrangement or deal with it..
> I'm Just curious as to the scientific reason behind this...


sell them on a repipe, an improved design:thumbsup:


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

retired rooter said:


> City is this you???:001_unsure: http://www.citywideplumbers.com/franchise.htmlor


No it's not. I like the website though..


----------



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

cityplumbing said:


> Has anyone noticed when a kitchen sinks duo strainer has a tubular shoe installed close to the outlet and you run hot water in the sink it starts to fill up then you switch the water to cold and it starts draining again...
> 
> Any thoughts as to why this happens? Im thinking it has to do with either the oxygen in the water or the molecules in the hot and cold water...


Enlighten us, how do the molecules in the water restrict drainage?

Or the oxygen? 




----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

cityplumbing said:


> Has anyone noticed when a kitchen sinks duo strainer has a tubular shoe installed close to the outlet and you run hot water in the sink it starts to fill up then you switch the water to cold and it starts draining again...
> 
> Any thoughts as to why this happens? Im thinking it has to do with either the oxygen in the water or the molecules in the hot and cold water...


_The way this was explained to me is that hot water expands the metal strainer and the cold water compress's it, try turning the hot water heater down. _


----------



## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

GREENPLUM said:


> _The way this was explained to me is that hot water expands the metal strainer and the cold water compress's it, try turning the HOT water heater down. _


 Another signature worthy quote...:whistling2:


----------



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

CoCo Plumbing said:


> Another signature worthy quote...:whistling2:


Thinking that was a little sarcasm from GreenPlum....


----------



## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> Thinking that was a little sarcasm from GreenPlum....


 Gotcha...Went right over my head might of been the oxygen expanding from my lungs to the brain.:smartass:


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> Enlighten us, how do the molecules in the water restrict drainage?
> 
> Or the oxygen?
> 
> 


 
I was hoping you can enlighten me buddy I asked the question no?

First of I didn't say restrict drainage all together I was referring to one particular situation if you don't know the reason save your lame sarcasm for another thread.....
Let me ask you something genius is there any particular reason you feel the need to insult someone for asking a question I personally have the confidence to say I don't know everything there is about plumbing that's why I ask questions to learn...


----------



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

cityplumbing said:


> Has anyone noticed when a kitchen sinks duo strainer has a tubular shoe installed close to the outlet and you run hot water in the sink it starts to fill up then you switch the water to cold and it starts draining again...
> 
> Any thoughts as to why this happens? Im thinking it has to do with either the oxygen in the water or the molecules in the hot and cold water...





cityplumbing said:


> I was hoping you can enlighten me buddy I asked the question no?
> 
> First of I didn't say restrict drainage all together I was referring to one particular situation if you don't know the reason save your lame sarcasm for another thread.....
> Let me ask you something genius is there any particular reason you feel the need to insult someone for asking a question I personally have the confidence to say I don't know everything there is about plumbing that's why I ask questions to learn...


Every one of the posts on this thread have been sarcastic, but you choose mine to get your panties in a wad about... That's cool man, do what you do.

There is no science behind what you are asking, it either drains or it doesn't. As per your first post you mentioned it "started draining" again when you swapped to cold. So to me that's called a restriction.

You have an idea that it's the "molecules" or "oxygen" in the water, I was actually asking how do you figure that.

Tread softy the sharks are circling... 


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> Every one of the posts on this thread have been sarcastic, but you choose mine to get your panties in a wad about... That's cool man, do what you do.
> _You responded to my thread directly by posting to my quote...That's why _
> _I gave you direct response..Your the one wetting you pants buddy all I had was a question.. If your going to be sarcastic at least follow through with some sort of contribution to the thread so you don't look like a total jack***..._
> There is no science behind what you are asking, it either drains or it doesn't. As per your first post you mentioned it "started draining" again when you swapped to cold. So to me that's called a restriction.
> ...


_Come on buddy are you serious with this comment?? :laughing:_


----------



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

cityplumbing said:


> Come on buddy are you serious with this comment?? :laughing:


Lol

Are you serious about your comment?

And no one has posted anything that answers your question and you continue to blow up at me... You kin to PC Plumber? 

Lighten up man, you'll live longer...


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

If your going to be sarcastic at least follow through with some sort of contribution to the thread so you don't look like a total jack***...
That should be directed to everyone that thinks there above there fellow plumber Just because you have been blogging for years doesn't make you a know it all so basically no question should be above you. And without asking questions your never going to move from the position your in now. Do me a favor go sit on a bucket have a beer and bring your *ss back to reality because your going to get a lot of questions from me that might be common to you and some might not be. I'm on here to better myself not to play games...


----------



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

So out of these 21 posts name one that has contributed to this post, except the ones you have made.


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> So out of these 21 posts name one that has contributed to this post, except the ones you have made.


 
I think my last post is a good response to this.. no??


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

The vent must be blocked...:whistling2:


----------



## suzie (Sep 1, 2010)

LMAO what a waste of time:thumbup::laughing:. I would get a bigger shoe maybe a size 8


----------



## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

City,
I have only seen issues with hot water causing washers to swell in faucets or valves, never in drains. The drain could have something partially obstructing it, and hot water could cause it to swell, slowing down the drainage. Just a thought.


----------



## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

are you using a flanged tailpiece washer? I have seen them restrict the flow on a basket strainer. as for why only on the hot side maybe it is borderline and the hot water causes it to swell just enough to restrict the flow but when it is cold it will shrink some.


----------



## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Should have used putty... :whistling2:


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

422 plumber said:


> City,
> I have only seen issues with hot water causing washers to swell in faucets or valves, never in drains. The drain could have something partially obstructing it, and hot water could cause it to swell, slowing down the drainage. Just a thought.


 
This problem was seen by me and a couple service techs a while back mostly on new construction the company we were working for at the time used to use bazooka's. This was seen on many homes in the area where we were working at first we had told people to lower there water heaters then we actually tried drilling out the strainer to add more space for water to flow through but didn't help at all. It was definitely not a vent issue because the cold water would be having the same problem. So we repipied it and it helped. I just recently saw the issue again a week ago at one of my customers homes and she also had a break that was close to the tail piece on the strainer.. I saw this happen with tubular brass and tubular pvc also.


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

Plumber Jim said:


> are you using a flanged tailpiece washer? I have seen them restrict the flow on a basket strainer. as for why only on the hot side maybe it is borderline and the hot water causes it to swell just enough to restrict the flow but when it is cold it will shrink some.


 
Its posible we used flanged tailpiece washers. It was mostly contributed to installing a bend close to the strainer I think..


----------



## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

I hope someone is getting paid well for all the research in the field:thumbup:


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

gitnerdun said:


> I hope someone is getting paid well for all the research in the field:thumbup:


Well my boss had to warranty his homes he was plumbing so he was paying us for a service call whenever a complaint was called in.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Are these double basin or, single basin sinks you are having the problem with?


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Are these double basin or, single basin sinks you are having the problem with?


Both!!


----------



## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

So when you run hot water in a single or double strainer sink it runs slowly but when you run cold it runs fine?


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Okay...

On the double basin ones does water come up on the other side when the draining stops or slows?

Are you using a combination waste or trapped separately?


----------



## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Perhaps your getting a higher gpm on the hot side and when you switching to cold the drain can handle the lower gpm


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

I need to get this on video so you can see what I mean. You actually turn the hot water on and after around a minute the water gradually fills up then you switch to cold and it drains again..


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

cityplumbing said:


> I need to get this on video so you can see what I mean. You actually turn the hot water on and after around a minute the water gradually fills up then you switch to cold and it drains again..


 



Maybe it's a partial stoppage? Maybe it's not the temperature of the water? I don't know, I'm just throwing this out there.


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

I think its a green alien messing with the plumbing!!!!


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Well an answer would suffice...

Or I might start joking around again...:laughing:


----------



## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Are you in Australia? This would make perfect sense in the southern hemisphere.


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Okay...
> 
> On the double basin ones does water come up on the other side when the draining stops or slows? Nope just one side..
> 
> Are you using a combination waste or trapped separately?


one trap


It happens when there is a break close to the stainer...


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

DesertOkie said:


> Are you in Australia? This would make perfect sense in the southern hemisphere.


No i'm not, why would that make a difference?


----------



## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

cityplumbing said:


> No i'm not, why would that make a difference?


Haven't you heard their toilets flush backwards?


----------



## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

ON a more serious note. Have you filled a sink up and then let it drain? This would clear up the GPM question, even though I think the aerator limits the GPM on most faucets. If you try it both ways, time the whole sink to drain hot and cold.


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

DesertOkie said:


> ON a more serious note. Have you filled a sink up and then let it drain? This would clear up the GPM question, even though I think the aerator limits the GPM on most faucets. If you try it both ways, time the whole sink to drain hot and cold.


 
I haven't tested it that way. Im tempted to repipe my own kitchen sink to see if it happens and video it..


----------



## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

OK city plumbing I got this from someone smart (my wife). It seems you might be right with the molecular thing sorta. When you add the cold water it is denser and will drop faster. This probably causes a vortex(the little swirly thing) making it drain faster. My wife's example is the Thermohaline circulation 



. You might try food coloring to see if cold water is sinking faster granted this is a lot of work compared to saying that's how it's supposed to work.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

cityplumbing said:


> one trap
> It happens when there is a break close to the stainer...


Well that pretty much indicated the problem whatever it is...
Is located between the strainer and the baffle tee...


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Even though it SEEMS this is directly related to the temperature, I doubt the coefficient rating of a sink coupling washer or a plastic flange tailpiece washer is high enough to expand to the point of slowing down the flow.

Post a pic of the waste configuration under the sink.

What type of faucet and what is the water pressure?


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

DesertOkie said:


> OK city plumbing I got this from someone smart (my wife). It seems you might be right with the molecular thing sorta. When you add the cold water it is denser and will drop faster. This probably causes a vortex(the little swirly thing) making it drain faster. My wife's example is the Thermohaline circulation. You might try food coloring to see if cold water is sinking faster granted this is a lot of work compared to saying that's how it's supposed to work.


Could be on to something there..


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Well that pretty much indicated the problem whatever it is...
> Is located between the strainer and the baffle tee...


 
The problem is located within the first three inches of the strainer..
If there is an elbow to close it will cause the problem.


----------



## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

DesertOkie said:


> OK city plumbing I got this from someone smart (my wife). It seems you might be right with the molecular thing sorta. When you add the cold water it is denser and will drop faster. This probably causes a vortex(the little swirly thing) making it drain faster. My wife's example is the Thermohaline circulation Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3niR_-Kv4SM. You might try food coloring to see if cold water is sinking faster granted this is a lot of work compared to saying that's how it's supposed to work.


Isn't hot water lighter and therefore more viscous


----------



## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> Isn't hot water lighter and therefore more viscous


No it's just the opposite, at the molecular level the hot water is spread out. So it is less viscous(thiner). Unless you live in Australia where it is reversed like the toilets :laughing:.


----------



## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> Even though it SEEMS this is directly related to the temperature, I doubt the coefficient rating of a sink coupling washer or a plastic flange tailpiece washer is high enough to expand to the point of slowing down the flow.
> 
> Post a pic of the waste configuration under the sink.
> 
> What type of faucet and what is the water pressure?


Been thinking the same thing John... Expansion... On that kind of scale??? I think not!


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> Isn't hot water lighter and therefore more viscous


 
Cold water is more dense then hot. The molecules in hot water are spread apart and are rapid moving. In cold water they are closer together and slower.From what I understand.. So hot water would have more volume then in its cold state..


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

cityplumbing said:


> Cold water is more dense then hot. The molecules in hot water are spread apart and are rapid moving. In cold water they are closer together and slower.From what I understand.. So hot water would have more volume then in its cold state..


Until it freezes then it expands again... :laughing:


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Have you tried with and without the basket strainer?

If so what happened?


----------



## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

cityplumbing said:


> Cold water is more dense then hot. The molecules in hot water are spread apart and are rapid moving. In cold water they are closer together and slower.From what I understand.. So hot water would have more volume then in its cold state..


More volume but also more viscous 
Obviously the amount were talking about its negligent


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Have you tried with and without the basket strainer?
> 
> If so what happened?


Only without the strainer figured the less restriction while testing it the better.


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

U666A said:


> Been thinking the same thing John... Expansion... On that kind of scale??? I think not!


The majority of the issues was in NY. We used 1-1/2 tubular brass and 2in PVC traps plastic tubular washers. Of the strainers we piped tubular flanged elbows into the traps the majority of times to allow more space under the cabinet. Now I just recently had a customer here in Florida with the same problem who had a PVC tailpiece and a tubular elbow installed within 2in or 3in
From the strainer. So the common variables are hot water and elbows close to the strainers.


----------



## TPWinc (May 30, 2011)

You didn't say how it was vented, but I bet you're dealing with a thermal expansion problem in the drain. Positive pressure in the drain will make it run slow. If it's already slowed down by a horizonal offset this will only allow the water to expand more before the trap seal. Put the trap closer to the basket strainer with no offset and use air admittance valves only when neccasary. You didn't say if it had one, but I'm betting it did, and if it didn't then the vent is blocked. That's the only somewhat scientific explanation to your problem.


----------



## ChantellWilson (Oct 14, 2011)

Is it a side spay or a pull out spayer? A side sprayer faucet sends water to the sprayer, which you're not using it diverts to the spout. My first inkling is that you have too high of water pressure. Anything above 80 is generally above legal. Another thing could be water leaking out of the sprayer and being replaced with air allowing the water to rush to the sprayer handle in the off position and then Hammer once it fully pressurizes and diverts to the spout.


----------



## HOMER (Jun 5, 2011)

have you performed the test with faucet aerator removed ?


(just grasping at straws again...nobody mentioned it)


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

ChantellWilson said:


> Is it a side spay or a pull out spayer? A side sprayer faucet sends water to the sprayer, which you're not using it diverts to the spout. My first inkling is that you have too high of water pressure. Anything above 80 is generally above legal. Another thing could be water leaking out of the sprayer and being replaced with air allowing the water to rush to the sprayer handle in the off position and then Hammer once it fully pressurizes and diverts to the spout.


No problems with water hammering. The faucets were side sprays and also without sprayer. Generally in thst area of NY water pressure was 75 and above. I also experienced the problem here in FL once .


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

HOMER said:


> have you performed the test with faucet aerator removed ?
> 
> 
> (just grasping at straws again...nobody mentioned it)


Actually, I haven't tried testing the sink without an aerator.


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

ChantellWilson said:


> Is it a side spay or a pull out spayer? A side sprayer faucet sends water to the sprayer, which you're not using it diverts to the spout. My first inkling is that you have too high of water pressure. Anything above 80 is generally above legal. Another thing could be water leaking out of the sprayer and being replaced with air allowing the water to rush to the sprayer handle in the off position and then Hammer once it fully pressurizes and diverts to the spout.


 




Chantelle, please post us an intro in the introduction section; years in the trade, licenses held, etc. You've been flying under the radar. 

In one post you state that your brother is a plumber. Are you employed in the trade? If so, in what capacity?

Thanks.


----------



## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

I've seen it happen on double bowl sinks,2"x1 1/2" PVC double wye at the wall w/a C.O.,two 1 1/2 traps,could be brass or PVC,12" drop into the trap w/a flanged tailpiece or wye branch tailpiece,Moen/Delta/Kohler/Grohe/Danze fcts.,60 p.s.i. pressure,no bend close to the strainer,basement house or on a slab.Never had a real complaint from a H.O. about it so I never gave it a lot of thought.


----------



## walker426 (Oct 17, 2011)

@leakfree if its on a wye that is wrong the vent is below the weir of the trap


----------



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

@walker426

How aboot posting an intro EH?


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

ChantellWilson said:


> Is it a side spay...


When did it get moved to the side? :laughing: 

Damn you Darwin!


----------



## walker426 (Oct 17, 2011)

Ben in the plumbing industry for 10 years now run my own business walker mechanical llc out of cleveland ohio do mostly custom houses and remodel work and service work to fill the gaps


----------



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

walker426 said:


> Ben in the plumbing industry for 10 years now run my own business walker mechanical llc out of cleveland ohio do mostly custom houses and remodel work and service work to fill the gaps


Think he was referring to posting your introduction in the appropriate section. Titled introductions.


----------

