# Space heating ports



## mpot (Oct 2, 2012)

New customer calls. Claims her water quality is so horrible that her hot water is tinted black. "When the tub is filled you can sweep up the black 'powder'. " I was skeptical. Test kit in hand, my first stop is the kit sink. Near perfect ph 6.9. No iron. Hardness was not horrible (forget exactly) TDS- near 600. Bad. Seen worse but still bad. 
Okay. Let me at the basement... New neutralizer and softener. Nice set up. Pull the sediment filter before the conditioning. Expecting heavy sediment. Not exactly. Nothing but typical fine sediments. The conditioning system is operating as it should. Can't do much for a high TDS except buy extended warranties. 
On to this water heater. Found the hot water recirc tied into the return port for space heating. Closed the valve and isolated the recirc line. Ran hot water at tub for about 1 hr. Much clearer now. Problem solved. I guess the big "space heating only" stickers weren't big enough! 
MY QUESTION- how do these ports work? Is it an exchanger in the tank? Separate from domestic side? 
How was this system circulating? Only the return port was used. The supply above was still plugged from the factory...


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

They are completely separate. So they didn't really have a recirc line. It wasn't doing anything but holding water. Did the recirc have a pump?

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## mpot (Oct 2, 2012)

jmc12185 said:


> They are completely separate. So they didn't really have a recirc line. It wasn't doing anything but holding water. Did the recirc have a pump? Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Yes. It was spinning to no where when I arrived.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

All the ones that I have seen as a service agent, have just been side holes in the tank.
think about it if it was a separate loop then it could not be affecting the bathtub !
all I can say is the recirc loop was stirring up the bottom of the water heater


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Wow, talk about a health hazard, also surprised boiler relief did not blow off from street pressure

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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

Not all of them have a coil, most that I have seen are just open to the potable water. They say space heating only because there is no dip tube, and would provide ****ty hotwater output.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Catlin987987 said:


> Not all of them have a coil, most that I have seen are just open to the potable water. They say space heating only because there is no dip tube, and would provide ****ty hotwater output.


Some are tank in a tank, space heating is the primary heating source off of a boiler, it's called indirect heating, come on keep up

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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

^^^^ you keep up. It's a HWT.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

mpot said:


> New customer calls. Claims her water quality is so horrible that her hot water is tinted black. "When the tub is filled you can sweep up the black 'powder'. " I was skeptical. Test kit in hand, my first stop is the kit sink. Near perfect ph 6.9. No iron. Hardness was not horrible (forget exactly) TDS- near 600. Bad. Seen worse but still bad. Okay. Let me at the basement... New neutralizer and softener. Nice set up. Pull the sediment filter before the conditioning. Expecting heavy sediment. Not exactly. Nothing but typical fine sediments. The conditioning system is operating as it should. Can't do much for a high TDS except buy extended warranties. On to this water heater. Found the hot water recirc tied into the return port for space heating. Closed the valve and isolated the recirc line. Ran hot water at tub for about 1 hr. Much clearer now. Problem solved. I guess the big "space heating only" stickers weren't big enough! MY QUESTION- how do these ports work? Is it an exchanger in the tank? Separate from domestic side? How was this system circulating? Only the return port was used. The supply above was still plugged from the factory...


Tied the recirc into the space heating only, it's an indirect . Read it

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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Ok, it's a HWT that gets it's energy from a heating boiler, what the OP was saying makes no sense

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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Your space heating lines are your heating pipes off your boiler to a coil or tank in tank design, the post states that the HW recirc line was tied into it. Therefore non potable water is tied into potable water.

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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/...ublic/indirect_water_heater.jpg?itok=QgAmv2mi

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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

My bad, I'm tired, HWT with space heating ports, don't see many of these around here. We deal with mostly indirects. Sorry. Been in a book all day

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## packardv8 (Mar 21, 2014)

Catlin987987 said:


> Not all of them have a coil, most that I have seen are just open to the potable water. They say space heating only because there is no dip tube, and would provide ****ty hotwater output.


 *mpot* didn't mention the brand, but Bradford White makes most of these I've seen; their M-2-XR65T6FBN, for example. Who else offers a similar unit and who makes the best of this side-outlet space heating unit in the 50-75 gallon sizes?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

packardv8 said:


> mpot didn't mention the brand, but Bradford White makes most of these I've seen; their M-2-XR65T6FBN, for example. Who else offers a similar unit and who makes the best of this side-outlet space heating unit in the 50-75 gallon sizes?


What's this handyhack doing here without a intro???


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## packardv8 (Mar 21, 2014)

rjbphd said:


> What's this handyhack doing here without a intro???


 Sorry for not posting an intro. It's done.

I hereby promise never to ask a working professional HOW to do anything. However, per the Plumbing Zone Terms and Conditions, asking for product information seems reasonable. 


> Plumbing Zone provides users with access to informational resources including communication and interactive resources pertaining to the plumbing industry.


 I would appreciate guidance on WHAT I'll be paying a pro to install, so I'll start a separate thread for that question.

jack vines


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## alberteh (Feb 26, 2012)

mpot said:


> New customer calls. Claims her water quality is so horrible that her hot water is tinted black. "When the tub is filled you can sweep up the black 'powder'. " I was skeptical. Test kit in hand, my first stop is the kit sink. Near perfect ph 6.9. No iron. Hardness was not horrible (forget exactly) TDS- near 600. Bad. Seen worse but still bad.
> Okay. Let me at the basement... New neutralizer and softener. Nice set up. Pull the sediment filter before the conditioning. Expecting heavy sediment. Not exactly. Nothing but typical fine sediments. The conditioning system is operating as it should. Can't do much for a high TDS except buy extended warranties.
> On to this water heater. Found the hot water recirc tied into the return port for space heating. Closed the valve and isolated the recirc line. Ran hot water at tub for about 1 hr. Much clearer now. Problem solved. I guess the big "space heating only" stickers weren't big enough!
> MY QUESTION- how do these ports work? Is it an exchanger in the tank? Separate from domestic side?
> How was this system circulating? Only the return port was used. The supply above was still plugged from the factory...


I'm looking at buying a test kit for water treatment (trying to get into that side of the business).

any recommendations?


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## mpot (Oct 2, 2012)

alberteh said:


> I'm looking at buying a test kit for water treatment (trying to get into that side of the business). any recommendations?


I'll have to check the name on my kit. Pretty basic setup. Tests iron. Hardness and ph. I opted to include a digital TDS meter. More for show since only a RO systems can control high tds. I have yet to find a customer go for the whole house RO. A service plumbers dream...
I'll post the manufacturer when I'm back in the truck tomorrow.


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## mpot (Oct 2, 2012)

It's made by HACH


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

That's the kit I have. I think around 200$. In canada


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## mpot (Oct 2, 2012)

redbeardplumber said:


> That's the kit I have. I think around 200$. In canada


Sounds about right. Add a bit more for the digital TDS tester.


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## alberteh (Feb 26, 2012)

thank you. already got the tds meter and now am on the lookout for a hach 62B.

thank you very kindly.


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## alberteh (Feb 26, 2012)

one more thing:

is there like a water treatment course or a book that teaches you everything you need to know?

we learned a bit in school but not enough to actually call myself a professional in that particular area.


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## mpot (Oct 2, 2012)

alberteh said:


> one more thing: is there like a water treatment course or a book that teaches you everything you need to know? we learned a bit in school but not enough to actually call myself a professional in that particular area.


My supplier was an awesome ally. Their specialist is great with customers. Very informative. He doesn't push new equipment if it's not needed. He doesn't trash talk other brands. 
The most important thing you need to make customers aware of is the maintenance schedule. If they aren't willing to have service preformed every year at a minimum, then they will be unhappy customers that hold you responsible for poor water quality.


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## PoodleHeadMikey (Jun 21, 2014)

*So why isn't that OK ?*

Most of those "space heating water heaters" are just a tank with multiple access ports. Even some that are labeled as 'solar storage' tanks or just ports into potable water. Very few have an internal HX coil.

So having the hot water recirc line tied into the return port for space heating makes sense. The supply side was was out to the fixtures and the return pump was to that return port. 

Or . . . . was there Really an internal HX and so the "return" line was actually just dead-ended to a coil? <g>

PHM
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mpot said:


> New customer calls. Claims her water quality is so horrible that her hot water is tinted black. "When the tub is filled you can sweep up the black 'powder'. " I was skeptical. Test kit in hand, my first stop is the kit sink. Near perfect ph 6.9. No iron. Hardness was not horrible (forget exactly) TDS- near 600. Bad. Seen worse but still bad.
> Okay. Let me at the basement... New neutralizer and softener. Nice set up. Pull the sediment filter before the conditioning. Expecting heavy sediment. Not exactly. Nothing but typical fine sediments. The conditioning system is operating as it should. Can't do much for a high TDS except buy extended warranties.
> On to this water heater. Found the hot water recirc tied into the return port for space heating. Closed the valve and isolated the recirc line. Ran hot water at tub for about 1 hr. Much clearer now. Problem solved. I guess the big "space heating only" stickers weren't big enough!
> MY QUESTION- how do these ports work? Is it an exchanger in the tank? Separate from domestic side?
> How was this system circulating? Only the return port was used. The supply above was still plugged from the factory...


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

PoodleHeadMikey said:


> Most of those "space heating water heaters" are just a tank with multiple access ports. Even some that are labeled as 'solar storage' tanks or just ports into potable water. Very few have an internal HX coil.
> 
> So having the hot water recirc line tied into the return port for space heating makes sense. The supply side was was out to the fixtures and the return pump was to that return port.
> 
> ...


Deffy not a plumber here..


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## mpot (Oct 2, 2012)

PoodleHeadMikey said:


> Most of those "space heating water heaters" are just a tank with multiple access ports. Even some that are labeled as 'solar storage' tanks or just ports into potable water. Very few have an internal HX coil. So having the hot water recirc line tied into the return port for space heating makes sense. The supply side was was out to the fixtures and the return pump was to that return port. Or . . . . was there Really an internal HX and so the "return" line was actually just dead-ended to a coil? <g> PHM ------


Well this Bradford White certainly did have a internal coil or tank or whatever. Verified by isolating recirc line. Draining main tank at boiler drain, opening waste on ball valve at recirc line. Nada water. Main tank still drained for 10 min.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

mpot said:


> Well this Bradford White certainly did have a internal coil or tank or whatever. Verified by isolating recirc line. Draining main tank at boiler drain, opening waste on ball valve at recirc line. Nada water. Main tank still drained for 10 min.


Were they famous for heating coil leaky inside due to different pressure on the system??


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## PoodleHeadMikey (Jun 21, 2014)

*It wasn't much of a plumber that piped it the first time either <g>*

Some years ago I built a hydronic solar system to heat the domestic water in my house and have one of each of those tanks for the storage. An 80 gallon w/coil and an 80 gallon with just the extra ports into the tank. When solar hot water was popular in the 1970's most of the systems around here had a secondary HX up on top of the tank - as an add-on solar-heating system - and used the extra-ports tanks. Bradford White made them. My submerged-HX tank was made in CA somewhere - American maybe?

I am in the process of building some more collectors and a 1000 gallon water storage tank because I'd like to do some space heating with the solar water. Originally I had the no-HX tank as just pre-heat to the tank w/HX coil - but later I added a little bronze circ pump to equalize the tanks' temps. It makes my solar system collect more heat. The outlet from the tanks feeds the inlet of a tankless gas WH so I can always temper up from whatever the solar system is doing at the moment.

PHM
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rjbphd said:


> Deffy not a plumber here..


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## PoodleHeadMikey (Jun 21, 2014)

*No more than domestic coils in boilers*

Which if you think about it is the same thing in reverse: street pressure inside the coil and low boiler pressure outside the coil. 

Solar systems using glycol require double insolation HX's now. Although I just use food-grade glycol in mine to avoid the issue.

PHM
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rjbphd said:


> Were they famous for heating coil leaky inside due to different pressure on the system??


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## PoodleHeadMikey (Jun 21, 2014)

It does remind me of a funny thing. We have installed plenty of WH's as tiny boilers when apartment buildings were dividing their utilities. Some were even little electric units. <g> But always with a boiler fill valve so the heating system ran at 5-10 lbs. But I have seen systems which just pump domestic hot water out, at full street pressure, to copper baseboard. Which makes me cringe when I think about all that high pressure fresh water inside that tinfoil-grade copper they made the baseboard elements from. <g>

PHM
------


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Were they famous for heating coil leaky inside due to different pressure on the system??


I think you are right... Do they even make these anymore???

I had a guy buy one at a discount ( prolly 10 yrs old). He wanted to use it for his floor as well. I cut the coil nipples off and droped the coil into the tank then used a heat exchanger.


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