# Underground rough-in layout question..



## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

Hey everyone, I came across an issue with a GC about my underground rough-in. I'm doing a back to back bathroom and the interior walls on the plans show the room at 6'6". He said I should have roughed in my plumbing and figured a 6'7" room to allow for sheetrock. This threw me for a loop because I had always firgured dimensions on a plan to be for rough openings. But I'm second guessing myself here and would love some help from the zone..


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Measurements are going to be framing, check the plans for wall type. Or on a house verify it would be 1/2" rock, might have tile etc,


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

Depends what type of drawings your looking at.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Check the notes. Measurement types are always noted.
Always...

Last couple years for me all the numbers on plans have been finished wall...

It varies by architect

Nobody cares that this was sent from my droid using. Plumbing Zone


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

If it is a house he may only have 1 sheet. And wall may not be specified.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

SlickRick said:


> Measurements are going to be framing, check the plans for wall type. Or on a house verify it would be 1/2" rock, might have tile etc,


 
I did figure for wall type. But I figured for a the bathroom to be 6'6" like the plan showed and not 6'7" adding sheetrock like he told me I should have figured for.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

They are sloppy plans. I'll have to double check the notes.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

cityplumbing said:


> I did figure for wall type. But I figured for a the bathroom to be 6'6" like the plan showed and not 6'7" adding sheetrock like he told me I should have figured for.


A house plan around here would be framing to framing.

So if the plan showed 6'6 inside it would actually be 6'5 in the clear.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

Every plan I have ever seen is finish. Think about it. Do they ever put the dimentions for your toilet 18-1/2" from side wall & 12-1/2" from back wall? No, all dimentions are from finish.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Rough Framing, sheet rock is in free space.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Was the measurement 6'6 inside?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Don The Plumber said:


> Every plan I have ever seen is finish. Think about it. Do they ever put the dimentions for your toilet 18-1/2" from side wall & 12-1/2" from back wall? No, all dimentions are from finish.


Not here.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Rarely do I see a house with finished diminsions. Commercial seems like all are. I have made it a habit to ask the super if it's rough or finished before I start.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

SlickRick said:


> Was the measurement 6'6 inside?


Plan showed 6'6" and there both interior walls.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

The plans were drawn in NJ the house in in FL.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

The plans for a job we are on is finished, not studs.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> The plans for a job we are on is finished, not studs.


It specifies that in the plans i'm guessing?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

So what I am saying is that around here if it showed 6'6 inside to inside of the room, And it was a 1/2 rock wall, I would have 6'5 in the clear and that is what I would have to rough in the w/c by. Or I am going to be a 1/2" too close to the wall.


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## AWWGH (May 2, 2011)

We see rough not finished here usually.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Here we will have 1 sheet for a spec. house and it will be framing. I am sure things could be different elsewhere, but don't assume.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

SlickRick said:


> So what I am saying is that around here if it showed 6'6 inside to inside of the room, And it was a 1/2 rock wall, I would have 6'5 in the clear and that is what I would have to rough in the w/c by. Or I am going to be a 1/2" too close to the wall.


He wanted to add an inch to the room figuring 6'7" for sheetrock. I figured 6'6" and went 12 1/2" from the wall. If he went the extra inch to 6'7" then I would have been out of the wall an inch with my vents and it would have thrown off the other bathroom as well.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

cityplumbing said:


> He wanted to add an inch to the room figuring 6'7" for sheetrock. I figured 6'6" and went 12in from the wall. If he went the extra inch to 6'7" then I would have been out of the wall an inch with my vents and it would have thrown off the other bathroom as well.


Seems like he is going the wrong way if the plans are framing, if it were finished you would't add or subtract anything.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

I'm going to assume if it's not specified on the plans then it should be rough dimensions. This is what framers are telling me..


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

cityplumbing said:


> I'm going to assume if it's not specified on the plans then it should be rough dimensions. This is what framers are telling me..


If the framers don't know then everything is screwed.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Here I string both sides of the wall and the w/c would be 12 1/2" off the string.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

SlickRick said:


> If the framers don't know then everything is screwed.


I'm sorry, not the framers on the job. Other framers I've worked with. He's doing his own framing.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

cityplumbing said:


> I'm sorry, not the framers on the job. Other framers I've worked with. He's doing his own framing.


Oh shiot.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Scale the stud walls on the plans during layout. You'll see a 3 1/2"'or a 5 1/2" thick wall. All the prints (residential) that I've ever seen are framing thickness only) Then you allow for sheetrock, plus tile if applicable. 

You have to ask the gc.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Did you point out the other rooms were going to be off?


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

And, if it's one of them totos with the plastic adaptor, you best allow for the baseboard.:yes:


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Don The Plumber said:


> Every plan I have ever seen is finish. Think about it. Do they ever put the dimentions for your toilet 18-1/2" from side wall & 12-1/2" from back wall? No, all dimentions are from finish.


 
12 inch rough is from the unfinished wall.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Richard Hilliard said:


> 12 inch rough is from the unfinished wall.


Not if you want the toilet to fit.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

You could always use a 10" rough w/c if you had to.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

SlickRick said:


> Did you point out the other rooms were going to be off?


 
A Lot would be off at this point if he went 6'7". He's going to keep it 6'6". I just wanted to ask for opinions on this since I never had this issue come up. If I was in his shoes I would have told me to allow for sheet rock when figuring where the wall was going. On the other hand I'm going to ask next time around. I can't have this be a situation again.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Don The Plumber said:


> Every plan I have ever seen is finish. Think about it. Do they ever put the dimentions for your toilet 18-1/2" from side wall & 12-1/2" from back wall? No, all dimentions are from finish.


Who is they? I put the fixtures where they go, I've never seen a plan with layout dimensions, other than shop drawings.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

justme said:


> You could always use a 10" rough w/c if you had to.


I have back to back showers a vanity and a toilet being measured off that wall.


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

Richard Hilliard said:


> 12 inch rough is from the unfinished wall.


from finished wall


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Richard Hilliard said:


> 12 inch rough is from the unfinished wall.


Tell that to Toto.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

I did mean 12.5" off framing. Not sure if anyone caught that.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

cityplumbing said:


> A Lot would be off at this point if he went 6'7". He's going to keep it 6'6". I just wanted to ask for opinions on this since I never had this issue come up. If I was in his shoes I would have told me to allow for sheet rock when figuring where the wall was going. On the other hand I'm going to ask next time around. I can't have this be a situation again.


Have they poured yet?, now is the time to make any corrections. You don't want to be out there with a jackhammer loosing money.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Richard Hilliard said:


> 12 inch rough is from the unfinished wall.


Where did you come up with that?


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

SlickRick said:


> Have they poured yet?, now is the time to make any corrections. You don't want to be out there with a jackhammer loosing money.


They poured! We agreed on not changing it's staying at 6'6". It just means an inch smaller room or if i'm interpreting the room correctly the right size room.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

cityplumbing said:


> They poured! We agreed on not changing it's staying at 6'6". It just means an inch smaller room or if i'm interpreting the room correctly the right size room.


I hope you can trust him, I would have him sign off on that one.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

SlickRick said:


> I hope you can trust him, I would have him sign off on that one.


Good point, I just might have to do that.


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## cbeck (Mar 7, 2012)

Better safe than sorry:thumbup:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Best of luck one way or the other. Hope it works out perfect.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

This was in the specifications.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

cityplumbing said:


> This was in the specifications.


Simple enough, to framing, adding or subtracting for wall finish, right?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

cityplumbing said:


> They poured! We agreed on not changing it's staying at 6'6". It just means an inch smaller room or if i'm interpreting the room correctly the right size room.


 






I have worked for builders in the past whose contracts stated that their rooms measured "on or about 6 feet 10 inches." The words "on or about" were on this builder's (GC) contracts with the home owners he was building for. That was to cover his behind. So if you had a home built by him and your furniture didn't fit in the room, you could not sue him. (It was actually a new home owner who was telling me this after he showed the contract to an attorney. The attorney said it was the worst one-sided contract he had read which had been written by a builder.)

Anyway, I always read all the notes on the prints. That tells you all the details. Much of it is standard, but some of it is necessary detailed info that you need to know. 

For example, *I always ask* (even if it's on the print, because the prints may not be the latest revised set), *what is going on the walls*. I want my tub and shower valve rough-ins to be perfect. If marble is going in the shower, that could add almost 2" onto the rough wall.

Hope the GC is a stand up guy and gives you the 6' 6" room like he stated verbally. Like Rick said, get it in writing.

My tip, put tub boxes around stuff that you have any doubts with in the future, so if anything is out of a wall, you won't have to chip concrete to offset the pipes back into the walls.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

SlickRick said:


> Simple enough, to framing, adding or subtracting for wall finish, right?


Very simple, plan says 6'6". It is what it is...:thumbup:


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> I have worked for builders in the past whose contracts stated that their rooms measured "on or about 6 feet 10 inches." The words "on or about" were on this builder's (GC) contracts with the home owners he was building for. That was to cover his behind. So if you had a home built by him and your furniture didn't fit in the room, you could not sue him. (It was actually a new home owner who was telling me this after he showed the contract to an attorney. The attorney said it was the worst one-sided contract he had read which had been written by a builder.)
> 
> Anyway, I always read all the notes on the prints. That tells you all the details. Much of it is standard, but some of it is necessary detailed info that you need to know.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Tommy..


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

You could always lay out all the walls first using rough diminsions then do it again using finished. It will only work one way then you'll know for sure.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> I have worked for builders in the past whose contracts stated that their rooms measured "on or about 6 feet 10 inches." The words "on or about" were on this builder's (GC) contracts with the home owners he was building for. That was to cover his behind. So if you had a home built by him and your furniture didn't fit in the room, you could not sue him. (It was actually a new home owner who was telling me this after he showed the contract to an attorney. The attorney said it was the worst one-sided contract he had read which had been written by a builder.)
> 
> Anyway, I always read all the notes on the prints. That tells you all the details. Much of it is standard, but some of it is necessary detailed info that you need to know.
> 
> ...


Yep. The 3 most important questions when doing a second rough. What is finished floor height, baseboard height, tub and shower wall thickness.


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

Yes, long gone are the days when we were the boss and everybody bowed down to us and did what we wanted. Drop this, fur that........well now it is ohhh...... How is he going to get insulation on that or the drywaller will not like this...........pfftttt!!! 

Here is a quarter to call someone who gives a sH$t.

Haha long live the plumbers!!!!


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

SlickRick said:


> Who is they? I put the fixtures where they go, I've never seen a plan with layout dimensions, other than shop drawings.


 They, meaning architect. I guess I was referring to drawings such as ADA bathroom, not for residential.

But on the other hand, exactly where do fixtures supposedly go? Didn't you know the Mrs., wanted to put that fake tree, between the wall and the water closet?:yes: Or they (owner) may want it centered under window. Who knows anymore, thats why its best to ask lots of questions. Lot of variables.


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## drain surgeon (Jun 17, 2010)

I have to agree with Richard as to 12 inch rough being from bare stud. Hence the term rough. Having said that I always rough in at 13 from the bare stud because I hate when things are tight against the wall. In fact in my own home I roughed the toilets at 14 so I could paint behind the tank without taking it off because my wife changes paint colors like some wemon change hair color.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

drain surgeon said:


> I have to agree with Richard as to 12 inch rough being from bare stud. Hence the term rough. Having said that I always rough in at 13 from the bare stud because I hate when things are tight against the wall. In fact in my own home I roughed the toilets at 14 so I could paint behind the tank without taking it off because my wife changes paint colors like some wemon change hair color.


Measurements are always from finish wall on fixtures. What do you think everyone puts on 1/2" drywall and thats it? Now the manufact, usually allows a 1/2" to 3/4" of clearance, from their 12" spec, but it's still off finished wall.

http://www.americanstandard-us.com/assets/documents/amstd/spec/SpecSheet_2264.pdf


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

drain surgeon said:


> I have to agree with Richard as to 12 inch rough being from bare stud. Hence the term rough. Having said that I always rough in at 13 from the bare stud because I hate when things are tight against the wall. In fact in my own home I roughed the toilets at 14 so I could paint behind the tank without taking it off *because my wife changes paint colors like some wemon change hair color.*


Yours too? Man, all this time I thought it was only mine who had this disease. :laughing:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Optimus Primer said:


> Yep. The 3 most important questions when doing a second rough. What is finished floor height, baseboard height, tub and shower wall thickness.


 When you learn by mistakes, you learn to ask:laughing:.....the one that used to be screwy around here was if there was brick or block or siding....Used to get some scratched out modified drawings.
We also(after getting screwed enough) would measure the foundation and call up on any variation....and they wouldnt show where the septic was going...you name it...


Typical scenario..toilet ends up 12 " from side of cabinet...1st comment " what plumber did Thaaaat".....answer...never a cabinet detail for miles and miles......it did get better.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Don The Plumber said:


> Measurements are always from finish wall on fixtures. What do you think everyone puts on 1/2" drywall and thats it? Now the manufact, usually allows a 1/2" to 3/4" of clearance, from their 12" spec, but it's still off finished wall.
> 
> http://www.americanstandard-us.com/assets/documents/amstd/spec/SpecSheet_2264.pdf


 In Chicago, because of tile and plaster it used to be 13" from the stud...thats how I learned.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

drain surgeon said:


> I have to agree with Richard as to 12 inch rough being from bare stud. Hence the term rough. Having said that I always rough in at 13 from the bare stud because I hate when things are tight against the wall. In fact in my own home I roughed the toilets at 14 so I could paint behind the tank without taking it off because my wife changes paint colors like some wemon change hair color.


I always rough them in at 13 too, it's better to be a little far from the wall than too close. Just makes sense to me.


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

I,m a 12 3/4 kind of guy


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Richard Hilliard said:


> 12 inch rough is from the unfinished wall.


This is not right


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

cityplumbing said:


> They poured! We agreed on not changing it's staying at 6'6". It just means an inch smaller room or if i'm interpreting the room correctly the right size room.


What's an inch,except in the bedroom!!!


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

sparky said:


> This is not right


Yes it is


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

sparky said:


> This is not right


He is correct , a couple of years ago I had to rough a 10" in, a 12"WC fit. If you rough in a anything over 12" you will have a significant gap behind your tank, some people are ok with it, but I like it TIGHT woo easy, I just got excited.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Why do you suppose they call it "rough" and not finish


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Why do you suppose they call it "rough" and not finish


Correct

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Yes it is


If it is roughed in 12" from unfinished wall then add board and maybe tile or whatnot then it is gonna be to close,


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Yes it is


nope


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

sparky said:


> If it is roughed in 12" from unfinished wall then add board and maybe tile or whatnot then it is gonna be to close,


Why yes indeed it is. That's why its a good idea too find these things out before you set the flange although a 1/2 an inch extra certainly won't cause a problem.


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

A toilet with a 12" rough in means depending on wall thickness that it is roughed in so that it will be 12" from the finished wall. (According to most of the toto spec sheets)


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Okay NH, I concede to your insight. All is lost.

Rough is finish? :blink:


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I've roughed in many toilets at 12" with no issue. Just because you chose to rough at 13, 12.5 or whatever else doesn't mean you have to. Hell we could all do 10" and screw all the homeowners who wanna supply their own toilet in the future.


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## gdplmr (Apr 17, 2014)

Always add an inch each way on your toilets 13 from Bach wall 16 from side wall 19 if handicap. Gives extra allowance for rock, tile, wainscoting , whatever. Cuts the BS factor.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

gdplmr said:


> Always add an inch each way on your toilets 13 from Bach wall 16 from side wall 19 if handicap. Gives extra allowance for rock, tile, wainscoting , whatever. Cuts the BS factor.


On handicap toilets in ky the blding inspector will not
Accept a handicap toilet roughed in over 18" from finished wall,they want all handicap toilets anywhere from 16"-18" from finished wall,anything more or less and you will be putting offset flange on or busting out the floor


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## JWBII (Dec 23, 2012)

sparky said:


> On handicap toilets in ky the blding inspector will not
> Accept a handicap toilet roughed in over 18" from finished wall,they want all handicap toilets anywhere from 16"-18" from finished wall,anything more or less and you will be putting offset flange on or busting out the floor


I think he meant adding and extra inch when pulling from stud but I could be wrong.


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