# How do u pipe water heaters flex or hard pipe?



## arkyplumber

I personally cant stand flex lines. Seen to many with worn out washers. I have replaced many with the wrong kind of nipples in them too. I always hook up mine with hard pipe and d-electric unions. Takes more time for sure, but much better and longer lasting job. I will admit I have been to a few jobs were flex lines were the way to go. Them in and out kind of jobs:laughing:


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## uaplumber

Hard pipe. Every time.


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## Ron

We use flex lines all the time, don't seem to have a problem with them myself.


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## pzmember

hard pipe w/ dielectric unions, and ballvalves on hot and cold. the flex lines seem to work just fine. and are required in seismic regions ive been told. makes sense. pipe for your region.


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## Tankless

Flex lines...mostly Brasscraft or Bobs....sometimes SS.
However I hate....with a passion Dielectric unions. I refuse to install them. If I need a union it's always brass. Tripple the price, I know but they don't rust shut in 5 years either.


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## I'mYourTourGuide

Ball valves on hot and cold? Hopefully the ball valve behind the bladder tank, lol.

I always just installed a gate valve on the cold side coming in, behind the bladder tank.

But anywho, hard pipe all the way!


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## pzmember

I'mYourTourGuide said:


> Ball valves on hot and cold? Hopefully the ball valve behind the bladder tank, lol.
> 
> I always just installed a gate valve on the cold side coming in, behind the bladder tank.
> 
> But anywho, hard pipe all the way!


 the twin ballvalves make for a quick replacement of the wh the next time no draindown time on the hot. yeah it might be 10 years later, but the next plumber will thank me. or i may thank myself.


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## WestCoastPlumber

flex all mine, unless it is a 75 gallon and up. Flex lets it move when the shaker comes......

When I hard pipe, I use all brass to transition to `copper, I have seen so many dielectrics fail, rust and leak. Brass unions and nipples, or brass to copper unions, or bell reducers and nipples, then copper fip's.

you get the point. good to have flex out here.


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## pzmember

WestCoastPlumber said:


> flex all mine, unless it is a 75 gallon and up. Flex lets it move when the shaker comes......
> 
> When I hard pipe, I use all brass to transition to `copper, I have seen so many dielectrics fail, rust and leak. Brass unions and nipples, or brass to copper unions, or bell reducers and nipples, then copper fip's.
> 
> you get the point. good to have flex out here.


 ive seen dielectrics close shut w/ almost 0 pressure, brought it to the attention of the plbg commission yet its still code here to have them. climate controlled engineers and lawyers. but then again i might suck at thier job too.


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## gabby

I hard pipe but have considered using flex when possible. You could not make me use a gate valve,ball valve only. The gate valve is the worst valve on the market. Two ball valves is over kill you still have to remove the air from the new tank.


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## Plasticman

Does yalls jurisdiction require you to use heat loops? Here we have to have a loop in the hot and cold at least 6 above from where you tie in to the water heater. A longer flex line makes that easier. Used to have to use 90's when working for this one company years ago. I found like I said, that flex connectors can do the same thing and faster. Passes code.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Hard pipe, always but I understand Ca has to use flex and earthquake straps for their installs.


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## 422 plumber

Two ball valves have nothing to do with purging a tank, it keeps the hot water from flooding your work area. Also, a lot of commercial tanks have recircs, and if there is crossover from a faucet anywhere, you get blasted. I just had to add a 1-1/4" valve on the hot outlet of a 100 gallon heater at a school, yesterday.


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## arkyplumber

Had to put my first heat loop on a water heater for a homeowner that built this new house. He said it was to conserve energy, by not loosing heat out of the water heater when not being used. First time I really heard of this, but no big deal as far as install, just a few more 90's. Also was wondering how many put on expansion tanks on new installs?


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## BatonRougePlumb

gabby said:


> I hard pipe but have considered using flex when possible. You could not make me use a gate valve,ball valve only. The gate valve is the worst valve on the market. Two ball valves is over kill you still have to remove the air from the new tank.


How do you figure ball valves are better than a gate valve. What is so terrific about a ball valve.

1) You cannot repair a ball valve without removing the valve from the pipe.

2) Even if you had parts for a ball valve it would be easier to replace the entire valve and this require draining the entire system, getting out a dozen tools and about one hour.

3) Ball valves ride on a Nylon seat. The seats crack and the valve leaks.

4) The brass ball erodes and the valve leaks.

6) The stems leak and you cannot re-pack nor tighten the valve.

7) When a ball valve has a tiny leak you cannot crank it off tighter.


The problem is; you never use a NIBCO gate valve with a non-rising stem. My boss said he has been using these valves for 50 years and never had one stem break and never saw any corrosion of the body of a valve.

Great thing about the NIBCO gate valve. You can change the stem in 30 seconds and the valve lasts forever.

Another hated valve is the quarter-turn angles stops. These valves are garbage and we see many of the angle stops will not turn completely off within six month.

Sorry, but this is what you can expect from the sorry ball valve and this is what you can expect a NIBCO gate valve to look like in 50 years. I removed this valve because; it would not turn completely off. the stem was leaking, and the body has holes corroding through it. Which valve is more serviceable?

Sorry, I just hate it when I see every plumber pushing ball valves and I spend many hours every year changing them and never had to change a gate valve.


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## BatonRougePlumb

*Di-electric unions are worse than flexes*



arkyplumber said:


> I personally cant stand flex lines. Seen to many with worn out washers. I have replaced many with the wrong kind of nipples in them too. I always hook up mine with hard pipe and d-electric unions. Takes more time for sure, but much better and longer lasting job. I will admit I have been to a few jobs were flex lines were the way to go. Them in and out kind of jobs:laughing:


When you use stainless steel flexes you can remove and screw on new flexes in about 4 minutes.

I have never seen it possible to change a water heater, with di-electric unions and be able to use the same unions. They are always corroded and you have to pull out all your tools and spend another 20 to 30 minutes.

I have never seen water flex washers leak. Of course, what do I know because I am only 18 year old, but from my little experience I have seen the very end of the copper connector corrode. This is the part the rubber washer sits on, so it appears that the rubber is leaking.


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## ToUtahNow

After our last big earthquake every water heater I had with broken water or gas lines were piped in flex with the exception of one 75-gallon heater. I pipe all my water heaters with brass C X MIP Unions.

Mark


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## BatonRougePlumb

*Why was the flex the problem?*



ToUtahNow said:


> After our last big earthquake every water heater I had with broken water or gas lines were piped in flex with the exception of one 75-gallon heater. I pipe all my water heaters with brass C X MIP Unions.
> 
> Mark


I would think the earthquake bracket was not installed at all or was not installed the correct way. Of course, we don't have your shake n' bake problems in Baton Rouge. I would also think that I would rather have a properly strapped water heater with a flexible gas pipe in an earthquake rather than taking a chance that the shaking would snap a joint. I can't see how a di-electric union could hold up better in a shaker than a flex. My boss said he has not used a di-electric union in over 50 years. If necessary, we install a solid brass union and attach brass nipples to the water heater.

I want to go to California and experience an earthquake. In Baton Rouge we call a shopping mall a poor man's Disney Land. We take our kids up and down the escalators and elevators several times and we don't need any E Tickets. Of course, E tickets were gone long before I was a sperm.

When was your last quake?


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## ToUtahNow

BatonRougePlumb said:


> I would think the earthquake bracket was not installed at all or was not installed the correct way. Of course, we don't have your shake n' bake problems in Baton Rouge. I would also think that I would rather have a properly strapped water heater with a flexible gas pipe in an earthquake rather than taking a chance that the shaking would snap a joint. I can't see how a di-electric union could hold up better in a shaker than a flex. My boss said he has not used a di-electric union in over 50 years. If necessary, we install a solid brass union and attach brass nipples to the water heater.
> 
> I want to go to California and experience an earthquake. In Baton Rouge we call a shopping mall a poor man's Disney Land. We take our kids up and down the escalators and elevators several times and we don't need any E Tickets. Of course, E tickets were gone long before I was a sperm.


The original code said we only needed to install earthquake straps on water heaters piped in flexes. The reason they changed the code was because repair plumbers were adding flexes when they did a change out and not adding the strap. After the Northridge earthquake we replaced hundreds of flexes and/or water heaters on properties where the heaters were piped in flexes and had one piece of 1" copper snap on a 75-gallon heater. Even at that, while the pipe snapped the water heater was still standing. It is the flexes which allows the water heater to move enough to need an earthquake strap.

Mark


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## BatonRougePlumb

*Are earthquakes good for business?*

We have a team that follows disasters in several states. The problem we encounter is it is difficult to get decisions because the customer does not know if FEMA will pay, their insurance company will pay, or they will have to foot the money themselves. I imagine just after an earthquake thousands of broken water mains, broken gas pipes, flooded homes, and nobody wants to commit to be the responsible party to pay the bill. Did you have this problem?


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## Tankless

Well, I lived in Northridge.....Right through that earth quake. I saw Bill Clinton on Balboa Blvd, where there was 10 foot flames comming up out of the center of a 6 lane road that was split in the middle. I saw my mother in tears after what her house looked like, I heard of many people that lost their pets because the damn things freaked out. I drove around for hours to friends homes and not once did I see a still standing block wall. That's what I actually remember the most was all the fallen walls. The apt complex that fell ontop of itself....I knew a sister of a guy that didn't make it out of there. 

So if you ask me what it's like in an earth quake.......for me, as soon as I feel the shaking I wonder to myself if this is going to be the one that brings down the house.
I don't live in Northridge anymore and the EQ's I feel here are small from what I used to feel as a kid. But we are due for a biggie. THere's nothing fun about EQ's


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## Tankless

BatonRougePlumb said:


> We have a team that follows disasters in several states. The problem we encounter is it is difficult to get decisions because the customer does not know if FEMA will pay, their insurance company will pay, or they will have to foot the money themselves. I imagine just after an earthquake thousands of broken water mains, broken gas pipes, flooded homes, and nobody wants to commit to be the responsible party to pay the bill. Did you have this problem?


FEMA doesn't pay for squat...they are a glorified Red Cross. Fema makes low interest loans to help HO's get things fixed.


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## Airgap

BatonRougePlumb said:


> Sorry, I just hate it when I see every plumber pushing ball valves and I spend many hours every year changing them and never had to change a gate valve.


 never had to change a gate valve?? The only time I prefer a gate over a ball valve is for steam. But I guess to each his own.


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## Ron

I like ball valves. :thumbsup:


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## BatonRougePlumb

gabby said:


> I hard pipe but have considered using flex when possible. You could not make me use a gate valve,ball valve only. The gate valve is the worst valve on the market. Two ball valves is over kill you still have to remove the air from the new tank.


I don't understand what you are talking about when you say remove the air from the tank. The water heater tank? Why would you need a 2nd valve?

Where would you install the second valve. You cannot install in on the outlet side of the water heater, or you could have an explosion if the T & P fails. A valve on the hot side must be against the code over the entire world.

Bradford-White recently decided to void the guarantee on their 100 gallon heaters if you don't install an expansion tank. 

I'll agree with your ball valve theory. Replacing them with gate valves helps to pay my rent. We charge $200 to $250 to replace a 3/4 or 1 inch ball valve with a NIBCO gate valve.


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## BatonRougePlumb

Tankless said:


> Well, I lived in Northridge.....Right through that earth quake. I saw Bill Clinton on Balboa Blvd, where there was 10 foot flames comming up out of the center of a 6 lane road that was split in the middle. I saw my mother in tears after what her house looked like, I heard of many people that lost their pets because the damn things freaked out. I drove around for hours to friends homes and not once did I see a still standing block wall. That's what I actually remember the most was all the fallen walls. The apt complex that fell ontop of itself....I knew a sister of a guy that didn't make it out of there.
> 
> So if you ask me what it's like in an earth quake.......for me, as soon as I feel the shaking I wonder to myself if this is going to be the one that brings down the house.
> I don't live in Northridge anymore and the EQ's I feel here are small from what I used to feel as a kid. But we are due for a biggie. THere's nothing fun about EQ's


I apologize. I was not thinking about the terrible things that happen in an earthquake. I was too young when the last earthquake hit California and was not aware of the damage. I sincerely apologize.


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## Ron

BatonRougePlumb said:


> A valve on the hot side must be against the code over the entire world.


I can't find anywhere in my code that tells me I can't have a shut off on the hot side of a water heater, it does say there will be a shutoff on the inlet side of the water heater, at or near the water heater. So saying it is against code all over the world is not at all true......


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## ToUtahNow

Tankless said:


> Well, I lived in Northridge.....Right through that earth quake. I saw Bill Clinton on Balboa Blvd, where there was 10 foot flames comming up out of the center of a 6 lane road that was split in the middle. I saw my mother in tears after what her house looked like, I heard of many people that lost their pets because the damn things freaked out. I drove around for hours to friends homes and not once did I see a still standing block wall. That's what I actually remember the most was all the fallen walls. The apt complex that fell ontop of itself....I knew a sister of a guy that didn't make it out of there.
> 
> So if you ask me what it's like in an earth quake.......for me, as soon as I feel the shaking I wonder to myself if this is going to be the one that brings down the house.
> I don't live in Northridge anymore and the EQ's I feel here are small from what I used to feel as a kid. But we are due for a biggie. THere's nothing fun about EQ's


Within an hour of the Northridge Earthquake I was in my truck headed to Northridge because of all of the apartments we did down there. The property management companies were without communications for days so we just kept going from building to building hoping the owner would understand and pay our bill. I was out working for 72-hours before I came home the first round. After that it took our crews 4-hours each way to dive the 20 miles into the San Fernando Valley. We finally started driving through Filmore then Simi to get into Northridge which still took 3-hours. It was a crazy time in Southern California for months afterwards.

Mark


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## BatonRougePlumb

Ron The Plumber said:


> I can't find anywhere in my code that tells me I can't have a shut off on the hot side of a water heater, it does say there will be a shutoff on the inlet side of the water heater, at or near the water heater. So saying it is against code all over the world is not at all true......


I will look for the proper literature and code. Putting a valve on both sides of a water heater is the same principle as making a pipe bomb, except your water heater will have more explosive power. You are putting a cap on both sides of a pipe (tank) and heating the tank until it explodes. I come from a very large family of civil engineers, plumbers, steam fitters, and a lot more, and I have been taught the explosive power of steam. When water is turned into 5,000 degree steam and pressure, it has one of the most explosive powers on this planet.

Regardless of the safety devices installed on water heaters, you never install a gate valve on the hot side and you never rely on the safety devices. You will probably say it does not matter because the faucets are turned off any way, but you still cannot install a valve on the hot side. Maybe this is a code requirement because they want the angle stops or something to blow apart before the heater sends the house to the moon. I don't know why but I have never seen a valve on the hot side, my boss has worked in many states and was in several countries and never saw two valves on a water heater. I never saw a manual nor instructions that showed two valves on a water heater.

I got a call from a factory and they said the pipes were rumbling. I went to the boiler room and the 500,000 btu boiler flame was on. The boiler was almost jumping up and down. This was the most fearful day of my entire short life. I really panicked because I did not want to go near the boiler. So, I ran to a restroom and opened all the hot water faucets. The faucets whistled so loud about 500 factory worker panicked and ran from the building. The PR valve on this boiler failed to release the pressure. My second fear was that the cold water was going to enter the boiler, cause a crack, and cause an explosion.

I think everyone should take this very seriously. What could have happened if a worker found something was wrong before I arrived and decided to turn off a valve you installed on the hot side of the heater. 

This water heater was connected to a water system that had a pressure regulator. The pressure regulator also acts as a check valve and will not allow water to flow backwards. If this factory did not have a regulator steam would have went backwards into the cold system and most times even backwards through the water meter. Then someone could have flushed the toilet and lost their assets with about 5,000 degrees of steam.

I'll look it up.


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## Ron

You talking about a boiler or a home water heater? I'm not talking about a boiler, hell I can't touch a boiler, install or repair one with out being certified, we can get a stiff fine if we ever try to mess with a boiler without proper licensing.


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## ToUtahNow

What do you call a water heater with a shut off on both sides?



A potential bomb!

Mark


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## uaplumber

Here we have to add a shut off valve before the expansion tank on a hydronic heating system. Same idea really. I pull the handle off, place it as far away as I can, then tag the valve with a bright red DO NOT OPERATE tag. I suppose you could do the same for water heaters if they are there to facilitate repairs by a competant person. But there is always that chance that Handy Andy will decide that he needs to adjust that valve with his vice grips. On big commercial or industrial you could just put a lock on the valve and be done with it, if your company is the one doing all the work, all the time for the customer.
Too many variables, my vote? Keep the second valve in the van.


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## Ron

Then we should not have shut off valve at all the fixtures, ie.. lav sinks, kitchens, laundry, water is going to expand I don't care how one looks at it, pressure will increase on all points of the system in a closed system. Code does not say you can't have a shut off on the hot side of a water heater, I seen shut offs on both sides, there is no problem with them there. I don't put them on both sides myself but there is nothing wrong with it. Thats all I have to say.


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## ToUtahNow

Ron The Plumber said:


> Then we should not have shut off valve at all the fixtures, ie.. lav sinks, kitchens, laundry, water is going to expand I don't care how one looks at it, pressure will increase on all points of the system in a closed system. Code does not say you can't have a shut off on the hot side of a water heater, I seen shut offs on both sides, there is no problem with them there. I don't put them on both sides myself but there is nothing wrong with it. Thats all I have to say.


I think what you are missing is expansion through an entire plumbing system is different than expansion in a metal tank. Depending on what type of pipe is installed there is considerable room for expansion, all of the supply lines will expand with pressure and on the cold side ballcock diaphragms will expand (and possibly leak). I believe the accepted numbers are a 40-gallon water heater with a 50-degree increase will expand by half a gallon. While that isn't a lot it is incredibly dangerous in a sealed tank. While I agree there would have to be a bunch of things go wrong for anything to happen, I would rather not have my name on it when it all goes bad.

Mark


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## Herk

I use flexes, preferably stainless steel. As far as dielectrics, there has been much discussion with the conclusion that they don't actually work. An 18" piece of brass pipe will work better. 

It doesn't matter if I'm working on a copper system, a galvanized system, or a PEX system, I use the same flexes, and a minimum of 18". 

I also make sure that the water heater is properly grounded. (Mostly electric here.)


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## Airgap

Cold water in.... 

Hot water out...



:laughing:




Sorry, I could'nt help myself


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## muck

we hard pipe all wh's


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## BatonRougePlumb

*Here is a trick for water flexes.*

Maybe there are a few plumbers doing this but I have never seen one. Every plumber faces there 3/4 pipe or MIP in a horizontal position.

When we install a water heater we always install a 45 or a 90 facing up. If you install a 90 facing straight up, you make a beautiful U-shaped curve on the flex and you never get a kink. You never have to bend the flex in an S-shape nor in a complete circle. In a water heater cabinet, because the heater is closer to the ceiling of the cabinet, we install a 45 facing up. Bring some 45's an 90's and try this on your next water heater. What do you think?


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## Ron

I'll try that next, sounds simple enough.


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## user4

ToUtahNow said:


> What do you call a water heater with a shut off on both sides?
> 
> 
> 
> A potential bomb!
> 
> Mark


Bingo.


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## Ron

ToUtahNow said:


> What do you call a water heater with a shut off on both sides?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mark


A water heater that has two shut offs on it. Thats what I call it. :laughing:


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## WestCoastPlumber

BatonRougePlumb said:


> How do you figure ball valves are better than a gate valve. What is so terrific about a ball valve.
> 
> 1) You cannot repair a ball valve without removing the valve from the pipe.
> 
> 2) Even if you had parts for a ball valve it would be easier to replace the entire valve and this require draining the entire system, getting out a dozen tools and about one hour.
> 
> 3) Ball valves ride on a Nylon seat. The seats crack and the valve leaks.
> 
> 4) The brass ball erodes and the valve leaks.
> 
> 6) The stems leak and you cannot re-pack nor tighten the valve.
> 
> 7) When a ball valve has a tiny leak you cannot crank it off tighter.
> 
> 
> The problem is; you never use a NIBCO gate valve with a non-rising stem. My boss said he has been using these valves for 50 years and never had one stem break and never saw any corrosion of the body of a valve.
> 
> Great thing about the NIBCO gate valve. You can change the stem in 30 seconds and the valve lasts forever.
> 
> Another hated valve is the quarter-turn angles stops. These valves are garbage and we see many of the angle stops will not turn completely off within six month.
> 
> Sorry, but this is what you can expect from the sorry ball valve and this is what you can expect a NIBCO gate valve to look like in 50 years. I removed this valve because; it would not turn completely off. the stem was leaking, and the body has holes corroding through it. Which valve is more serviceable?
> 
> Sorry, I just hate it when I see every plumber pushing ball valves and I spend many hours every year changing them and never had to change a gate valve.


 

Oh No, this is sounds familiar..................... 

GATE VALVES SUCK!! Whether you can just change the guts out or not, they suck. they leak when they get old and they snap in the worst times.

Ball valves are teflon coated and although they do fail, not nearly as much as gate valves, and they are 100% positive shut off in 98% of the cases.

Hi Leonard! 

I will post a picture of a nasty looking Nibco gate valve, wish I had read this before I tossed my scrap!


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## WestCoastPlumber

BatonRougePlumb said:


> Sorry, I just hate it when I see every plumber pushing ball valves and I spend many hours every year changing them and never had to change a gate valve.


Didn't you say you were 18? I have been doing this for 10 years, not very long, but I have had a good fill in those 10 years, I have replaced a small handfull of ball valves, but I have replaced 100's of gate valves, you are saying you will take the guts out of a new gate valve and install them into an old gate valve body, have you ever seen the inside of an old gate valve???? you clean all that crap out of there? How many different gates and tops do you carry in the van??? you can go out and change out a red and white inside with a nibco body? I don't think so.


Don't believe eveything you hear, gate valves suck, I had 2 last week that broke when I tried to turnt hem off, the handles cvame off, the shafts came out and water shot out of the top, all the while the water heater stayed leaking.


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## BatonRougePlumb

*Why?*



WestCoastPlumber said:


> Oh No, this is sounds familiar.....................
> 
> GATE VALVES SUCK!! Whether you can just change the guts out or not, they suck. they leak when they get old and they snap in the worst times.
> 
> Ball valves are teflon coated and although they do fail, not nearly as much as gate valves, and they are 100% positive shut off in 98% of the cases.
> 
> Hi Leonard!
> 
> I will post a picture of a nasty looking Nibco gate valve, wish I had read this before I tossed my scrap!


Nibco gate valve stems never snap. Red-White gate valves do snap. At least when a stem snaps on a gate valve you can repair it in less than one minute so how do you figure a ball valve is better. Why is a ball valve better when you cannot repair it, it takea an hour to change, and they still don't turn completely off? 

Let's do a survey. Count defective and leaking ball valves and count defective and leaking Nibco valves. I'm willing to bet you I will find 10 defective ball valves that have to be entirely replaced and you will not find one Nibco gate valve that needs to be replaced. We will take pictures of valves and put the dates on the pictures. I've only seen one or two non-rising Nibco stems that leak very little when the valve is 50% on or off. I have never seen a bad Nibco valve. Nibco makes the finest quality red brass valve in the world and Red-White and all other valves are junk red brass. Most of the other gate valves are yellow brass and these are the worst.

This valve thing is not about arguing. If someone is going to claim that a ball valve is better than a Nibco gate valve, then show the facts and statistics.


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## WestCoastPlumber

BatonRougePlumb said:


> Nibco gate valve stems never snap. Red-White gate valves do snap. At least when a stem snaps on a gate valve you can repair it in less than one minute so how do you figure a ball valve is better. Why is a ball valve better when you cannot repair a ball valve and they still don't turn completely off?


 
IMO, all gate valves snap, I have snapped every brand, granted nibco is a better valve, they still snap. All gate valves leak after a long period of time, because the buildup in the body keeping the gate from closing, altleast with a teflon coated ball valve, there is very little to no buildup.

Yes, you may be able to "Service a gate valve", but how many different parts do you keep on your truck to service the different gate valves out there? parts are not interchangeable, so unless they only sell nibco in your area, your gonna run into one that can't be "serviced"

In my mind, all gates a horrible and need to be replaced, I see them fail all the time, far less then ball valves, and I agree with you, you can service them, but in my mind it is a waste, especially with all the buildup in the gate valve body, why waste your time? Ball valves are far more reliable. it's proven.


Just my 2 cents big guy. No disrespect or belittling, this is one of those things that is debatable.

:thumbsup: :yes: maybe the other can chime in for a bit and lets hear their opinions.


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## Tankless

No disrespect Baton, but if I saw a guy taking out one of my ball valves to install a gate....I'd prolly just beat his ass right there. To me, that is malicious. Gates were good in their hay day...it's now the ball valve turns! In my entire life I have seen maybe 3 or 4 ball valves fail...and those were cheap ass china junk. On any one given day I can find atleast a few that don't work correctly. I did a bid last night for a tankless...on the way out of property I noted there was a gate on the main...seeing as I will need to shut it down....and seeing as It will most likley not work I added in to change it out to a nice new Nibco....the kind that will outlast you and me both.


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## M5Plumb

*Good Point !*

BRP, 

you have a very valid point here, sad as it is, there are those who don't know better and will throttle the valve on the hot side, leave it closed etc....My preference is to valve the hot and cold, also add one onto the Exp Tank to isolate. Oh and flexes too.

On the valve issue, I have had many more failures with gate more so than ball valves, I'm sold on ball valves.:thumbup:





BatonRougePlumb said:


> I got a call from a factory and they said the pipes were rumbling. I went to the boiler room and the 500,000 btu boiler flame was on. The boiler was almost jumping up and down. This was the most fearful day of my entire short life. I really panicked because I did not want to go near the boiler. So, I ran to a restroom and opened all the hot water faucets. The faucets whistled so loud about 500 factory worker panicked and ran from the building. The PR valve on this boiler failed to release the pressure. My second fear was that the cold water was going to enter the boiler, cause a crack, and cause an explosion.
> 
> I think everyone should take this very seriously. What could have happened if a worker found something was wrong before I arrived and decided to turn off a valve you installed on the hot side of the heater.
> 
> This water heater was connected to a water system that had a pressure regulator. The pressure regulator also acts as a check valve and will not allow water to flow backwards. If this factory did not have a regulator steam would have went backwards into the cold system and most times even backwards through the water meter. Then someone could have flushed the toilet and lost their assets with about 5,000 degrees of steam.
> 
> I'll look it up.


----------



## Tankless

M5Plumb said:


> My preference is to valve the hot and cold, *also add one onto the Exp Tank to isolate*. Oh and flexes too.


Isn't that illegal?


----------



## ToUtahNow

BatonRougePlumb said:


> Nibco gate valve stems never snap. Red-White gate valves do snap. At least when a stem snaps on a gate valve you can repair it in less than one minute so how do you figure a ball valve is better. Why is a ball valve better when you cannot repair it, it takea an hour to change, and they still don't turn completely off?
> 
> Let's do a survey. Count defective and leaking ball valves and count defective and leaking Nibco valves. I'm willing to bet you I will find 10 defective ball valves that have to be entirely replaced and you will not find one Nibco gate valve that needs to be replaced. We will take pictures of valves and put the dates on the pictures. I've only seen one or two non-rising Nibco stems that leak very little when the valve is 50% on or off. I have never seen a bad Nibco valve. Nibco makes the finest quality red brass valve in the world and Red-White and all other valves are junk red brass. Most of the other gate valves are yellow brass and these are the worst.
> 
> This valve thing is not about arguing. If someone is going to claim that a ball valve is better than a Nibco gate valve, then show the facts and statistics.


I think what you are talking about is a quality gate valve versus a cheap ball valve. Nibco valves are bronze while Red White valves are mostly Brass. Nibco is a much better valve than a Red White. Like most others here I have changed thousands of gate valves compared to hundreds of ball valves across 35-years.

Mark


----------



## Ron

Most gate valves will begin to seize up, ball valves don't, I don't use gates and won't use gates. To top it off, gates valves don't give a positive shut down when aged.


----------



## Dr Steevil

I've been trying to "educate" my customers about the valves in their systems. I tell them its a good idea to cycle them every once in awhile. Rule of thumb I've been using is every 6 months at least. Do it when they reset their clocks and change batteries in their smoke detectors. Especially the stop valves!


----------



## BatonRougePlumb

WestCoastPlumber said:


> Didn't you say you were 18? I have been doing this for 10 years, not very long, but I have had a good fill in those 10 years, I have replaced a small handfull of ball valves, but I have replaced 100's of gate valves, you are saying you will take the guts out of a new gate valve and install them into an old gate valve body, have you ever seen the inside of an old gate valve???? you clean all that crap out of there? How many different gates and tops do you carry in the van??? you can go out and change out a red and white inside with a nibco body? I don't think so.
> 
> 
> Don't believe everything you hear, gate valves suck, I had 2 last week that broke when I tried to turn them off, the handles came off, the shafts came out and water shot out of the top, all the while the water heater stayed leaking.


I did not say we swap Nibco guts with Red-White guts. I said my boss was using Nibco gate valves for 50 years. Of course, we stock only Nibco. Perhaps, to answer your next question, we do not repair Red-White nor any other gate valve. As stated before, we will sell the customer a Nibco gate valve for $200 to $250 rather than repair and guarantee junk. 

I'm about Nibco'd out. Had enough! I won't talk about valves no more. Time to go check the other forum to see what they are talking about. It is actually funny or fun to see how everyone has a different opinion as long as you don't get to fighting about it. It is more fun to find out what these opinions are based on.


----------



## Ron

BatonRougePlumb said:


> I don't believe a ball valve with a Teflon seat that cannot be repaired is better than a Nibco gate valve that last maybe 100 or more years.


IMO they are better then gates, use all the gates you like, I'm happy you have found something you like.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

BatonRougePlumb said:


> I did not say we swap Nibco guts with Red-White guts. I said my boss was using Nibco gate valves for 50 years. Of course, we stock only Nibco. Perhaps, to answer your next question, we do not repair Red-White nor any other gate valve. As stated before, we will sell the customer a Nibco gate valve for $200 to $250 rather than repair and guarantee junk.
> 
> I'm about Nibco'd out. Had enough! I won't talk about valves no more. Time to go check the other forum to see what they are talking about. It is actually funny or fun to see how everyone has a different opinion as long as you don't get to fighting about it. It is more fun to find out what these opinions are based on.


 
Did you get into my pain medication?



How many calls have I received on "dropped gates" or "can't get the water to shut off" or "I can't get the valve to open back up, it's stuck" 

Gate valves would work great if they were used periodically, but they're not. They operate solely on two machined surfaces that work like a ground joint when in the closed position.


In larger commercial applications, Gate Valves is all you'll see. I believe this topic hammers residential, put it in and forget it types of valves.

The only valves I see that are faulty with ball valves are those valves sold by Lowe's called "American Valve" or B&K Mueller's ported ball valves with those super thin sockets. Guaranteed to cancer out and need replacement in a short time. But, you get what you pay for.

People are sold on "One-finger" operation of shutting water off. That's why these 1/4 turn angle/straight stops are selling so well, $6 to $12 a pop and simplifies the use down the road.


The only way a ball valve can get damaged is by someone overheating a ball valve and turning it on or off too quickly before cool-down, distorting the packing gland. I know of one ball valve right now that serves as a main valve that I know is damaged just by that....but still turns the water off. :whistling2: Emergency call at midnight, fighting water and I had to go.


Too often the gate valve has an excessive amount of turning to shut it off, the uneducated user never knows how far to turn it, which indirectly can snap the stem.


If the history of gate valves were as such that they are turned off and on regularly, you might have a valid point...but in the end they don't, and that's why ball valve sales have shot through the roof in the past 25 years. 


When I put in a gate valve for someone, I'm doing it because I either don't like them, know I'm not coming back, or financial constraints led them to that buying choice. 

Ball valves are a easy ticket markup item and the average dummy can understand its operation. 

I STILL get customers asking me which way to turn off a valve. Scary.


----------



## 22rifle

WestCoastPlumber said:


> Oh No, this is sounds familiar.....................
> 
> 
> Hi Leonard!



Bingo!


----------



## user823

18 years old and telling plumbers here with decades of experience what is better? That's the problem today, kids with a few months experience think they know it all, sad. My son who is 22 just started working for me as an apprentice. I have had to set him straight more than once. I told him he's looking at years, not months before he knows squat. Ball valves are superior, better, period. Ok, I said my say on that.

Earthquakes, you want to hear about earthquakes? I was in San Francisco installing a commercial water heater in 89 when the big one hit. I don't give a hoot what kind of connections were used, flex or hard pipe, they all broke! Earthquake straps? Absolutely meaningless, that quake ripped three inch lags out of walls like it was pulling out of butter! I picked up water heaters that ended up on their side for two weeks after it hit. I found gas water heaters laying on their side that were still firing and burned holes through the jacket. 
Anyway, I hard pipe all my water heaters here in Minnesota now. In Ca. they were mostly all flex. I don't use dialectics ever. I do use the dialectric nipples. Earthquake straps here are unheard of. All our gas lines are hard piped to the water heaters here, no flex lines. Flex lines leak here. The water gets so cold in the winter it shrinks the washers and they leak (personal experience on that one). 
Sorry to ramble on, this thread sort of hit a nerve. Ok, I feel better! ;-)


----------



## 22rifle

ironranger said:


> 18 years old and telling plumbers here with decades of experience what is better?


He's not 18 years old.


----------



## nhmaster3015

I find that one of the best things about these forums is that we get to hear from plumbers all over the world. And just because we do something a certain way in our little corner, doesn't mean every else does it the same way. Here on the East coast we have very little need or use for flex connectors on a water heater but I can certainly see the merits of it's use in earth quake country. As for valves, I've been an Apollo ball valve user since they first hit the market. No particular reason really. It's what my supplier stocks.


----------



## Tankless

nhmaster3015 said:


> I find that one of the best things about these forums is that we get to hear from plumbers all over the world. And just because we do something a certain way in our little corner, doesn't mean every else does it the same way. Here on the East coast we have very little need or use for flex connectors on a water heater but I can certainly see the merits of it's use in earth quake country. As for valves, I've been an Apollo ball valve user since they first hit the market. No particular reason really. It's what my supplier stocks.


 That is actually one of the things I like most about this site, is the diverse locations of others. From the God awefull sticks to the nazi codes of ILL. I like hearing about all that. Hearing that no plastic DVW in the S.F. area was news to me....I don't know if it makes me a better plumber but it definitly makes me more rounded. I very much like learning how other guys do things. I think I just have a general like for constantly learning!!!:thumbsup:


----------



## user4

Tankless said:


> That is actually one of the things I like most about this site, is the diverse locations of others. From the God awefull sticks to the nazi codes of ILL. I like hearing about all that. Hearing that no plastic DVW in the S.F. area was news to me....I don't know if it makes me a better plumber but it definitly makes me more rounded. I very much like learning how other guys do things. I think I just have a general like for constantly learning!!!:thumbsup:


What's wrong with Illinois' Codes?


----------



## Tankless

Killertoiletspider said:


> What's wrong with Illinois' Codes?


Well, nothing I guess. In all the discussions about your codes they just seem...excessive or obsurd in some cases. I don't recall any one particular at the moment, just remember they are on the extreme....at least to me from 2000+ miles away.


----------



## user4

Tankless said:


> Well, nothing I guess. In all the discussions about your codes they just seem...excessive or obsurd in some cases. I don't recall any one particular at the moment, just remember they are on the extreme....at least to me from 2000+ miles away.


They are a bit excessive, but I understand why after having a discussion with Dean Thiedy, who wrote most of the state's codebook, his approach was always to err on the side of caution rather than allow something that could come back as a mistake. Chicago's code is even worse than state code, but a lot of it because of a certain fire that happened a long time ago, not to mention politics.

I like Chicago's code, it helps keep hack's out of the city, they wouldn't have the tools or the knowledge to install hub and spigot stacks.

If you can't glue it they can't do it.


----------



## Arpsf

I use flex all the time as well in san francisco. one is that it allows for some mobilty the other is on the output line if you take the flex line and make a loop it creates a trap that helps the loss of heat. Their is also a new type of flex its not copper nor stainless stell braided. I belileve it is aluminum material very easy to bend without kinks. I would have to say that stainless stell braided are the worst. If you dont pick up the exact lenght they tend to kink real easy.


----------



## ILPlumber

Our code is without a doubt one of the toughest in the country. Especially cook county code. I have grown to love it. We seem to be one of the few plumbing programs not suceptible to the lobby.

To keep on topic. Hard pipe with seismic bracing on everything. That's just how I was trained. But I still hard pipe lav and WCL supplies to.


----------



## Plumber

Killertoiletspider said:


> They are a bit excessive, but I understand why after having a discussion with Dean Thiedy, who wrote most of the state's codebook, his approach was always to err on the side of caution rather than allow something that could come back as a mistake. Chicago's code is even worse than state code, but a lot of it because of a certain fire that happened a long time ago, not to mention politics.
> 
> I like Chicago's code, it helps keep hack's out of the city, they wouldn't have the tools or the knowledge to install hub and spigot stacks.
> 
> If you can't glue it they can't do it.


Yeah but, does the a.a. have the manpower to back the regs up? We have more hacks, loopholes and inspectors afraid to step on toes that brand new homes are barely inhabitable. No joke. 

Part of it was the carpetbaggers trying to flip homes and realizing they made a horrible mistake. The prices are cheap here because incomes are low. Low incomes = low property values, but the greedy little house flippers didn't see it in time.

What a mess we have here due to poor codes and no enforcement.

To stay on thread, flex connectors, earthquake straps....riiight.


----------



## user4

Plumber said:


> Yeah but, does the a.a. have the manpower to back the regs up? We have more hacks, loopholes and inspectors afraid to step on toes that brand new homes are barely inhabitable. No joke.


I have seen whole commercial projects shut down and the jobsite locked out until proper permits and licenses can be produced.

I install water heaters using two six inch long brass nipples, two copper female adapters, and two sweat unions.


----------



## plumber1a

Depends on the customer, want it cheep, flex it is. 
Want it done to last, extra charge no problem, hard pipe with brass nipples and unions, also looks better, like a real plumber did it. I too use to connect all my fixtures with chrome plated brass craft bull head supplies, started using flex as no one really ever appreciated the extra work involved, but thats tenant improvement for you.


----------



## Protech

I run pex right to electric heaters. Threaded red brass onto gas heaters then switch to pex when I get away from the flue. I have no problem with double valving a heater as several devices would all have to fail simultaneously to cause an explosion and 100% of the heaters I put in with double valves have plastic pipes in between the valves and the heater. If the thermostat, and the T/P, and the thermal expansion device(tank or prv) all failed at once the plastic would burst not the tank.


----------



## PEXguru

*Hard pipes*

Can't go wrong with hard pipes. Seen too many basements with those - never leaked.
Two types of flex hoses i know of:
1. 304 Stainless - seam welded, too thin, depending on your water may fail pretty soon.
2. Copper ones - would use as a last resort in a tight space only.


----------



## M5Plumb

Protech said:


> I run pex right to electric heaters. Threaded red brass onto gas heaters then switch to pex when I get away from the flue. I have no problem with double valving a heater as several devices would all have to fail simultaneously to cause an explosion and 100% of the heaters I put in with double valves have plastic pipes in between the valves and the heater. If the thermostat, and the T/P, and the thermal expansion device(tank or prv) all failed at once the plastic would burst not the tank.



Hey Protech, just curious on your code...Do your folks require the first 18" to be metallic piping?? Out here we gotta run em that way...


----------



## Protech

on gas, yes.


----------



## okdrfan1

Personally I use flex and also put on a 90 facing up with a male adapter, but a lot of companies make their guys hard pipe them in, with the hard water we have here in OK the HWH collects lots of minerals if not flushed out once in awhile, and you run across the old plastic drain valves you will have a battle getting the tank drained, and the water also makes gate valves fail to close down and if they do they usually stay closed because the gate drops when you open it back up, homes here without softeners have like 27 grains per gallon so you have a lot of problems fighting mineral buildup, but non draining HWH's is the biggest PITA..


----------



## DesertOkie

I use flexes C by FIP. The commercial WH were required to be hard piped. I replace every gate valve I come across. They might make gates that don't go bad but the asses that did the houses and apts in Tucson damn sure did not use them. As for Oklahoma "Whats a shut off valve?"


----------



## tungsten plumb

I use flex lines.


----------



## Associated Plum

Hard Pipe with Watts 3008 Brass IPSxSweat Dielectric unions http://www.watts.com/pages/_products_details.asp?pid=578


----------



## nhmaster3015

Here's one I did last week, I'm bursting with pride :thumbsup:


----------



## U666A

nhmaster3015 said:


> Here's one I did last week, I'm bursting with pride :thumbsup:


Don't take ALL the credit... At least tell them that I bent and connected the flex lines while you installed the T&P...

:thumbup: :laughing: :thumbup:


----------



## nhmaster3015

You will note that I used a dielectric nipple on that too because I was pretty sure it was gonna blow off because I bypassed the gas valve so's they'd get plenty O hot water :blink:


----------



## sparky

I do both,mostly hard pipe tho,i will use a brass tee right on top of the dielectric nipple,install exp. tank on top of the tee,and hook up cold water on side outlet of the tee,works preety good,and can be reused on a change-out everytime.on another note,you want to always install your exp tank in a vertical position everytime,2 reasons,when you do this there is no weight on the threaded neck of the tank and if a piece of trash,gravel or mineral deposit comes in from the main,it wont rest against the bladder of the tank and possiblely wear the bladder out or puncture it,i have taken tanks off before that were installed hanging down or sideways,and all kinds of crap were against or in the neck of the tank.


----------



## Will

I flex them, never had a issue. The dielectric unions will fail as quick as the flex will, if not quicker. If I was to hard pipe it, I'd go start to it with brass.


----------



## Tommy plumber

I prefer hard piping.


----------



## sparky

Tommy plumber said:


> I prefer hard piping.


do you run pex to top of water heater????


----------



## Will

HEre with all the earthquakes we have been getting, flex makes more since. Plus most are in cramped closets which make hard piping not practical.


----------



## sparky

Will said:


> HEre with all the earthquakes we have been getting, flex makes more since. Plus most are in cramped closets which make hard piping not practical.


like I said I do both,i like the ss flexes better than the cheap copper ribbed ones,seen holes come in those types.yea if in a fault zone,definetly want to flex it and strap the heater down to wall floor


----------



## Will

You using the braided SS flexes or corrugated?


----------



## sparky

Will said:


> You using the braided SS flexes or corrugated?


braided


----------



## KoleckeINC

0 braided lines installed. But I hear Brookfield il allows them. Copper never galv. Brass nipples in the top and adequate heat traps if it's close to any faucets.


----------



## Dpeckplb

This is my water heater, I installed it in 08 when I was green. Still do it the exact same way.


----------



## crown36

I install the new waterless water heaters. I just dolly the thing into place and walk away.


----------



## KoleckeINC

Dpeckplb said:


> This is my water heater, I installed it in 08 when I was green. Still do it the exact same way.


. I bet


----------



## Dpeckplb

KoleckeINC said:


> . I bet


Is there something wrong with it?


----------



## KoleckeINC

How do you unscrew the tank w/0 unions? What about an expansion tank?


----------



## MootsNYC

I always hard pipe.


----------



## Dpeckplb

KoleckeINC said:


> How do you unscrew the tank w/0 unions? What about an expansion tank?


The mixing valve is allowed to act as unions. Expansion tank is at the manifold.


----------



## love2surf927

sparky said:


> do you run pex to top of water heater????


That would be against code, 18" copper at heater.


----------



## redbeardplumber

KoleckeINC said:


> How do you unscrew the tank w/0 unions? What about an expansion tank?


I hard pipe and rarely use unions... Those do-electric plug off... 

Plus in most cases they need a professional to solder it back up.., not some handyman with a shorter tank pulling down on the pipe and forcing unions together.... Nah make em work for it... I did


----------



## KoleckeINC

No unions? Like I says that's what's wrong. Shakes head...not in Illinois. How does that pos tempering device count if you can't unscrew the cold side? Why do you need one if the tank has a control? Wasted labor you stepped over a buck to pick up that penny.


----------



## Dpeckplb

KoleckeINC said:


> No unions? Like I says that's what's wrong. Shakes head...not in Illinois. How does that pos tempering device count if you can't unscrew the cold side? Why do you need one if the tank has a control? Wasted labor you stepped over a buck to pick up that penny.


Just saying this, that your code may not make mixing valves code, but that is not the case here in Ontario. The code states that the tank temperature must be 140* to kill legionaires desease, but point of touch shall not exceed 120*. I spoke to the inspector and unions are not required here on waterheaters. This was removed from the code because as redbeard stated they cause problems. I use 18" of copper off the top of the heaters and then switch to pex. So with the copper PEX ring that allows the pipe to spin in the joint there is the unscrewing point on the cold, as you say i need.
I also never reuse the old valve or anything down stream of it when i replace heaters. Call me a d*ck whatever but that way you don't have to worry about a previous joint failing. I see that all the time. 
Sorry to make this long but we all learned differently, and our codes across countries and provinces/states vary. So while it may be code to install unions in your state it isn't here. I have never been defected by the inspector here for the way I plumb the tanks.


----------



## KoleckeINC

Dpeckplb said:


> Just saying this, that your code may not make mixing valves code, but that is not the case here in Ontario. The code states that the tank temperature must be 140* to kill legionaires desease, but point of touch shall not exceed 120*. I spoke to the inspector and unions are not required here on waterheaters. This was removed from the code because as redbeard stated they cause problems. I use 18" of copper off the top of the heaters and then switch to pex. So with the copper PEX ring that allows the pipe to spin in the joint there is the unscrewing point on the cold, as you say i need. I also never reuse the old valve or anything down stream of it when i replace heaters. Call me a d*ck whatever but that way you don't have to worry about a previous joint failing. I see that all the time. Sorry to make this long but we all learned differently, and our codes across countries and provinces/states vary. So while it may be code to install unions in your state it isn't here. I have never been defected by the inspector here for the way I plumb the tanks.


. Cranking the tank up just shortens it's lifespan which is good for business!


----------



## Dpeckplb

They come preset.


----------



## KoleckeINC

All our heaters are adjustable., so what's the deal with the water? Out here they chlorinate for legionella and mandate no dead ends greater than 2'. This is in Chicago Illinois.


----------



## Dpeckplb

KoleckeINC said:


> All our heaters are adjustable., so what's the deal with the water? Out here they chlorinate for legionella and mandate no dead ends greater than 2'. This is in Chicago Illinois.


 Our electric ones are preset in the thermostats, The gas ones the gas valves are set from factory. If the inspector is doing their job they have to take a temp from the drain apon final inspection. Then they take a temp at the closest hot tap. Have you every heard of the Walkerton Water Tragedy? l'll post a link, people died, that is why Ontario is nuts about E.coli. We chlorinate our water. They are going to start using peroxide in a few places.


----------



## sparky

Dpeckplb said:


> Our electric ones are preset in the thermostats, The gas ones the gas valves are set from factory. If the inspector is doing their job they have to take a temp from the drain apon final inspection. Then they take a temp at the closest hot tap. Have you every heard of the Walkerton Water Tragedy? l'll post a link, people died, that is why Ontario is nuts about E.coli. We chlorinate our water. They are going to start using peroxide in a few places.


I swear I believe all the chemicals they are putting in the water all over the usa is what is causing so much cancer in us humans,that stuff cant be good for a human body to absorb


----------



## rjbphd

I never use unions on water heater here, they are waste of money and time, esp the die electric craps, not required under illinois code.


----------



## sparky

rjbphd said:


> I never use unions on water heater here, they are waste of money and time, esp the die electric craps, not required under illinois code.


I don't use them either,just cut the pipe to replace,union is waste of time and money


----------



## KoleckeINC

Heat trap nipples kill water volume, yes die electrics are only recommended if there are no trap nipples. What I like is the bonus flow from removing them if the place has multiple users. As long as the heater isn't too close to any faucets of course.


----------



## incarnatopnh

Dpeckplb said:


> Our electric ones are preset in the thermostats, The gas ones the gas valves are set from factory. If the inspector is doing their job they have to take a temp from the drain apon final inspection. Then they take a temp at the closest hot tap. Have you every heard of the Walkerton Water Tragedy? l'll post a link, people died, that is why Ontario is nuts about E.coli. We chlorinate our water. They are going to start using peroxide in a few places.


They actually teach us about Walkerton in our water treatment license classes. Here we chlorinate and use UV disinfection.


----------



## longplumb

Hard pipe. Our water here is not the best. Have seen to many flex comnectors fail, plus I don't think they look professional. Just sayin...


----------



## RW Plumbing

love2surf927 said:


> That would be against code, 18" copper at heater.


Unless it's an electric heater. That's only required for gas heaters here.


----------



## MTDUNN

KoleckeINC said:


> Heat trap nipples kill water volume


How?


----------



## KoleckeINC

MTDUNN said:


> How?


 uhh just look through them :whistling:


----------



## MTDUNN

KoleckeINC said:


> uhh just look through them :whistling:


You mean the restriction?


----------



## KoleckeINC

Yes, I meant that's what I don't like about them. When there's more than one shower I think it matters.


----------



## MTDUNN

KoleckeINC said:


> Yes, I meant that's what I don't like about them. When there's more than one shower I think it matters.


Ok, you're equating flow restriction to volume then?


----------



## SewerRatz

rjbphd said:


> I never use unions on water heater here, they are waste of money and time, esp the die electric craps, not required under illinois code.


The Illinois code does require dielectric unions or a brass transition fitting to be used when hooking up pipes of different metals.

And the Illinois code requires unions to be installed on a water heater 

Section 890.350* Unions

Unions shall be installed in a water supply system within 5 feet of regulating equipment, water heaters, water conditioning tanks, water conditioning equipment, pumps, and similar equipment which may require service by removal or replacement.* 

Unions between copper pipe/tubing and dissimilar metals shall either be made with a brass converter fitting or be a dielectric type union.


----------



## rjbphd

SewerRatz said:


> The Illinois code does require dielectric unions or a brass transition fitting to be used when hooking up pipes of different metals.
> 
> And the Illinois code requires unions to be installed on a water heater
> 
> Section 890.350* Unions
> 
> Unions shall be installed in a water supply system within 5 feet of regulating equipment, water heaters, water conditioning tanks, water conditioning equipment, pumps, and similar equipment which may require service by removal or replacement.*
> 
> Unions between copper pipe/tubing and dissimilar metals shall either be made with a brass converter fitting or be a dielectric type union.


Recommeded, not required.. say so in code book and the speaker said it at the ce class.


----------



## SewerRatz

What I posted is straight from the code book. It says shall, nowhere do I see they recommend unions and recommend how to join indifferent metals.

The speaker at your ce class needs to reread the code. The ce classes I attend have people from Springfield that actually write the code, has pointed out that the code is very clear in its wording that unions are required.


----------



## SewerRatz

Maybe ILPlumber can chime in on this.


----------



## KoleckeINC

SewerRatz said:


> Maybe ILPlumber can chime in on this.


. It's in the current green book. I read it yesterday. Look for typical gas water heater. What's funny is I just came from a stainless mesh supply line blowout. Hard piped with dielectrics thinking of you guys


----------



## rjbphd

Btw, that speaker is from the state.. code book page..(II-12 and 13). And why beat oursleves with this frivlous code?? Every water heater repalcement are most likely will be taller, fatter, etc and you have to do the repiping , hence, throwing away the unions that never will be used.


----------



## SewerRatz

Can you quote the section instead of pages


----------



## SewerRatz

rjbphd said:


> Btw, that speaker is from the state.. code book page..(II-12 and 13). And why beat oursleves with this frivlous code?? Every water heater repalcement are most likely will be taller, fatter, etc and you have to do the repiping , hence, throwing away the unions that never will be used.


here let me past the whole section for you.


> TITLE 77: PUBLIC HEALTH
> CHAPTER I: DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC HEALTH
> SUBCHAPTER r: WATER AND SEWAGE
> PART 890 ILLINOIS PLUMBING CODE​
> 
> SUBPART C: JOINTS AND CONNECTIONS
> 
> *Section 890.350 Unions*
> 
> Unions may be used in the drainage and venting system when accessibly located above ground. *Unions shall be installed in a water supply system within 5 feet of regulating equipment, water heaters, water conditioning tanks, water conditioning equipment, pumps, and similar equipment which may require service by removal or replacement.* Where small equipment may be unscrewed, only one union shall be required.
> 
> 
> a) Drainage System. Unions may be used in the trap seal and on the inlet and outlet side of the trap. Unions shall have metal to metal seats except that plastic unions may have plastic to plastic seats.
> 
> b) Water Supply System. Unions in the water supply system shall be metal to metal with ground seats, except that plastic to metal unions may utilize durable, non-toxic, impervious gaskets. *Unions between copper pipe/tubing and dissimilar metals shall either be made with a brass converter fitting or be a dielectric type union.*​


​Tell me where does it say its a suggestion?


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## rjbphd

SewerRatz said:


> Can you quote the section instead of pages


Die electric unions are recommeded if die electric nipples are not provided.. btw that whole page is all messed up.. water heater shall have 3/4" taped thread?? What's piloet valve... makes ya wonder about the 'experts' on the state board merrily making some of these usless code.


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## SewerRatz

rjbphd said:


> Die electric unions are recommeded if die electric nipples are not provided.. btw that whole page is all messed up.. water heater shall have 3/4" taped thread?? What's piloet valve... makes ya wonder about the 'experts' on the state board merrily making some of these usless code.


Look at my last post with the quoted text from the Illinois Plumbing Code, and notice how I included the section I found the code in "*Section 890.350 Unions"*

It would be helpful if you could include the section and paragraph where you are reading this. 

If you do not want to follow the code due to you thinking it's useless then you shouldn't be plumbing in the State of Illinois, sorry to say.


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## rjbphd

SewerRatz said:


> Look at my last post with the quoted text from the Illinois Plumbing Code, and notice how I included the section I found the code in "*Section 890.350 Unions"*
> 
> It would be helpful if you could include the section and paragraph where you are reading this.
> 
> If you do not want to follow the code due to you thinking it's useless then you shouldn't be plumbing in the State of Illinois, sorry to say.


 As I stated before its on those two pages with the water heater drawings.. no section or mumbo craps.. so tell me, how's is ONE union going to help on mutli connections fixture?? If those pencil pushers really ever a service plumber, common sense will prevails... so how many times have you used Sharkbite on the job?


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## Triodaddyo

Hard pipe is code in KY and I'm glad.it has to be copper at least 12" above the heater before transitioning to any other material. I also standby using dielectric unions although many guys don't like them. The are a true dielectric connection as opposed to the nipples that still allow the copper and steel contact one another.


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## SewerRatz

rjbphd said:


> As I stated before its on those two pages with the water heater drawings.. no section or mumbo craps.. so tell me, how's is ONE union going to help on mutli connections fixture?? If those pencil pushers really ever a service plumber, common sense will prevails... so how many times have you used Sharkbite on the job?



What do you mean one union? If it has multiple connections you must have multiple unions. Please explain to me what part of this you do not understand? "*Unions shall be installed in a water supply system within 5 feet of regulating equipment, water heaters, water conditioning tanks, water conditioning equipment, pumps, and similar equipment which may require service by removal or replacement.* "

Wow, just wow... you are basing your code off a drawing that is older than the current code book. The drawing you are referring to is *Section 890.ILLUSTRATION L Typical Gas Water Heater* Notice the key word is "typical" Now read what I posted in #122 what I posted there is the actual written plumbing code.

rjbphd, tell me how many of your installed water heaters with out any unions have you had inspected?


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## rjbphd

SewerRatz said:


> What do you mean one union? If it has multiple connections you must have multiple unions. Please explain to me what part of this you do not understand? "*Unions shall be installed in a water supply system within 5 feet of regulating equipment, water heaters, water conditioning tanks, water conditioning equipment, pumps, and similar equipment which may require service by removal or replacement.* "
> 
> Wow, just wow... you are basing your code off a drawing that is older than the current code book. The drawing you are referring to is *Section 890.ILLUSTRATION L Typical Gas Water Heater* Notice the key word is "typical" Now read what I posted in #122 what I posted there is the actual written plumbing code.
> 
> rjbphd, tell me how many of your installed water heaters with out any unions have you had inspected?


 You left out the last part of the first paragraph, small equipment shall use one union... answer to ur question, a lot, as well many other water heaters installed without unions by reputable companies. So how many Sharkbites have you used?


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## SewerRatz

rjbphd said:


> You left out the last part of the first paragraph, small equipment shall use one union... answer to ur question, a lot, as well many other water heaters installed without unions by reputable companies. So how many Sharkbites have you used?


 The last line in that paragraph "Where small equipment may be unscrewed, only one union shall be required." Its hard to unscrew a water heater so it would need more than one union. What they mean by small equipment would be lets say an RPZ, you break the union on one side and unscrew from the other.

Three 1/2" caps, and all got replaced shortly later. Only use sharkbites to bail out a place that needed the water back on right away. Then I come back later during non-business hours and shut the system down long enough to do a proper repair. I wouldn't be using any sharkbites if my dang propress never got stolen.

I can spend all night arguing with you about unions, but I need to get some sleep, have an early start. Also I could post over 20 village water heater requirements sheets found on the internet that these villages give the plumber when he pulls a permit, and each and everyone of them state dielectric unions must be used.


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## gear junkie

SewerRatz said:


> The last line in that paragraph "Where small equipment may be unscrewed, only one union shall be required." Its hard to unscrew a water heater so it would need more than one union. What they mean by small equipment would be lets say an *RPZ, you break the union on one side and unscrew from the other.
> *
> Three 1/2" caps, and all got replaced shortly later. Only use sharkbites to bail out a place that needed the water back on right away. Then I come back later during non-business hours and shut the system down long enough to do a proper repair. I wouldn't be using any sharkbites if my dang propress never got stolen.
> 
> I can spend all night arguing with you about unions, but I need to get some sleep, have an early start. Also I could post over 20 village water heater requirements sheets found on the internet that these villages give the plumber when he pulls a permit, and each and everyone of them state dielectric unions must be used.


I hate that design.....why not use double unions.


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## gear junkie

arkyplumber said:


> I personally cant stand flex lines. Seen to many with worn out washers. I have replaced many with the wrong kind of nipples in them too. I always hook up mine with hard pipe and d-electric unions. Takes more time for sure, but much better and longer lasting job. I will admit I have been to a few jobs were flex lines were the way to go. Them in and out kind of jobs:laughing:


To the original question. Flex lines here. Never a problem because the water heaters go out before the flexes.


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## SewerRatz

gear junkie said:


> I hate that design.....why not use double unions.


When I install RPZs and such I do use double unions. The thing about the Illinois plumbing code is it is the bare minimum you are allowed to do, you can always go above and beyond.


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## plbgbiz

gear junkie said:


> To the original question. Flex lines here. Never a problem because the water heaters go out before the flexes.


My thoughts exactly.

I know SR's code is what it is but, what's the point of have 30 year pipe connections to an appliance that is designed to fail in 7?


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## Letterrip

I always hard pipe. My general philosophy is that I really don't want to leave a job with a homeowner looking at my install saying "I could have done THAT!! Anyone in earthquake country has a good reason to go flex though. 

On the derail debate, I think we could have a whole new thread on that. There are things in the code that are not always enforced. I would venture to say that there are numerous heaters in the great state of Illinois that have been inspected and passed without the required (as I read that code) unions because everything else that really mattered were correct. I say this from Florida, never having visited Illinois, but its my guess.


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## KoleckeINC

gear junkie said:


> To the original question. Flex lines here. Never a problem because the water heaters go out before the flexes.


 problem is the next guy re-uses them with a garden hose washer. I Just removed a set of braided stainless that sprung a pinhole yesterday. And I was thinking about this thread.


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## MNplumb1

Hard pipe no unions. I am guessing inspector would not pass flex lines in MN. Although have never tried, to me it seems more handy man ish. Sorry just a personal opinion. That being said I understand if you are in an earthquake area and have to use them.


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