# Water Heater Tripping Circuit Breaker



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

First to guess what is wrong gets a prize.

Water 10 year old, cold tank, tripped circuit breaker, no moister on electrical components, replaced upper and lower stat, replaced upper element, all wires on correct terminals, you trip the breaker and you get full poser to the upper side of the heater, 5 min elapses the circuit trips out.

What is wrong here?

You get a toaster if you guess it. :laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Lower element grounded out.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Lower element grounded out.


Here is your prize.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Do you use UPS or fedex? I pefer UPS. Please go ahead and fill out the warranty card for me and mail it off. I knew my plumbing skills would pay off somday


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Here is you tracking number.

6482158545692318965475216489652134896547856321458765489124536589742312589525366 :laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

On a serious note.....Do you test your elements with a continuity tester?...Both probes on the element screws should read positive continuity......one probe one one screw and the other to the bare tank should NOT read continuity. Power off and all wires removed from the element screws.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

On a non serious note.

I don't believe in tester.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron said:


> Here is you tracking number.
> 
> 6482158545692318965475216489652134896547856321458765489124536589742312589525366 :laughing:


Where it coming from the space station? 

Ok I hafta go be nice and make some money....I have a few sevi calls to run. 

1. Install a automatic bowl cleaning thing made by fluidmaster that connects to the refill tube on the ballcock.
2. Replace a wax seal and closet bolts.
3. Run a 3/8 o.d. copper tube for a cooktop from the attic down the wall to a cabinet for a cooktop. 2lb natural gas.
4. Rebuild a sayco shower only faucet.

4 different homes...all within a 3 or 4 miles of each other.


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> On a serious note.....Do you test your elements with a continuity tester?...Both probes on the element screws should read positive continuity......one probe one one screw and the other to the bare tank should NOT read continuity. Power off and all wires removed from the element screws.


 Element can't be imersed in water to test continuity.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

The master is right...if the element is broke open and is touching the water then it would read continuity to bare tank...thus blowing the fuse


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Imo, the only fool proof way to check an element is amp draw.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Colgar said:


> Imo, the only fool proof way to check an element is amp draw.
> 
> That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.


You can test it with a ohm/continuity tester and its accurate. Trust me I work on them all the time,I'm a plumber


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> On a serious note.....Do you test your elements with a continuity tester?...Both probes on the element screws should read positive continuity......one probe one one screw and the other to the bare tank should NOT read continuity. Power off and all wires removed from the element screws.


Didn't you gentlemen see my post on OHM'S Law ... The best tool a plumber can carry ... Here it is again ...
A FREE TOOL. This was on a post about wired wrong for 5 years

Here is the attachment ... Work out the couple of excersizes, then print on card stock, cut out the wheel. Check what the Ohm's should be for the voltage your are supplying. If you want to use amps the wheel will tell you what the amps should be. A must for electric water heater service. Caution always take OHM readings with the power off. On some meters you will pop the fuse in the meter case. Or blow the meter.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Didn't you gentlemen see my post on OHM'S Law ... The best tool a plumber can carry ... Here it is again ...
> A FREE TOOL. This was on a post about wired wrong for 5 years
> 
> Here is the attachment ... Work out the couple of excersizes, then print on card stock, cut out the wheel. Check what the Ohm's should be for the voltage your are supplying. If you want to use amps the wheel will tell you what the amps should be. A must for electric water heater service. Caution always take OHM readings with the power off. On some meters you will pop the fuse in the meter case. Or blow the meter.


I dont open files like that online. This is kinda easy stuff....I dont see the big deal.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

TheMaster;[[FONT=Arial Narrow said:


> 4763[/FONT]]I dont open files like that online. This is kinda easy stuff....I dont see the big deal.


TM ... Believe me there is nothing wrong with that file. Just a word Document. 

And it is a big deal there are a lot of plumbers that don't understand electricity and a lot don't understand the correct way to service an electric water heater, probably even you. It certainly is not only done with continuity!


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Didn't you gentlemen see my post on OHM'S Law ... The best tool a plumber can carry ... Here it is again ...
> A FREE TOOL. This was on a post about wired wrong for 5 years
> 
> Here is the attachment ... Work out the couple of excersizes, then print on card stock, cut out the wheel. Check what the Ohm's should be for the voltage your are supplying. If you want to use amps the wheel will tell you what the amps should be. A must for electric water heater service. Caution always take OHM readings with the power off. On some meters you will pop the fuse in the meter case. Or blow the meter.


 Printed this and stuck it on the coffee room board. Came back in and the boys were throwing make shift darts at it.:laughing:


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

njoy plumbing said:


> Element can't be imersed in water to test continuity.


I will argue that. You won't get a reading if the element is blown, but under proper working conditions you sure can. Then as someone else mention, the amp draw proves it working correctly.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> TM ... Believe me there is nothing wrong with that file. Just a word Document.
> 
> And it is a big deal there are a lot of plumbers that don't understand electricity and a lot don't understand the correct way to service an electric water heater, probably even you. It certainly is not only done with continuity!


 
Its not done with that wheel you posted either. Plenty of manufacturers have info on trouble shooting online......Its not that complicated. Try checking another data base other than your OWN:thumbsup:.. This is not difficult and it doesn't need to be made or sound like it is. 

Checking for continuity and a grounded element is a good start wouldn't you say? Last time i checked I had repaired a few thousand of them....that was 10 years ago:laughing: Its not like this is cutting edge technology anymore 

Now if anyone doubts what I say is true or not....go to any manufacturers website and look up troubleshooting a standard water heater and see what they say...then come back and post about it.:thumbsup::whistling2:

ADD> I think nailing the answer sitting in my livingroom 3 mintues after Ron posted the issue is a tribute I know how to repair them. What do you think?


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

Indie said:


> I will argue that. You won't get a reading if the element is blown, but under proper working conditions you sure can. Then as someone else mention, the amp draw proves it working correctly.


The water will make the circuit on continity. If it is dry and open, contiuity is na da.
Remember the element is still in the tank at the bottom imersed in water.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

http://www.bradfordwhite.com/servicebulletins/119_burnedout.asp

Add>: Here is another if you want a second opinion.....http://waterheating.rheem.com/content/resources/documents/tech bulletins/1300 Series/1314.pdf


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## PlumberDave (Jan 4, 2009)

A normal electric HWT call is as easy as they come to troubleshoot if it is an electrical problem. No or low hot water and it has proper voltage it needs 2 stats and 2 elements. Why would you only replace one element or stat? The other stat has how many cycles on it? Have you opened one and seen the contacts? Just my 2 cents.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

PlumberDave said:


> No or low hot water and it has proper voltage it needs 2 stats and 2 elements. Why would you only replace one element or stat? The other stat has how many cycles on it? Have you opened one and seen the contacts? Just my 2 cents.


 
Knowing how to diagnose the problem and determine what parts have failed is what separates a true plumber from a "parts replacement technician". If a toilet runs does it get an automatic full rebuild? If you replace everything you can be 90% sure you'll get it, right? I've seen guys completely rebuild water heaters without even testing voltage.  This applies to any repair, not just water heaters. Anyone can change out all the parts on something and hope they fix it.









Paul


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## PlumberDave (Jan 4, 2009)

rocksteady said:


> Knowing how to diagnose the problem and determine what parts have failed is what separates a true plumber from a "parts replacement technician". If a toilet runs does it get an automatic full rebuild? If you replace everything you can be 90% sure you'll get it, right? I've seen guys completely rebuild water heaters without even testing voltage.  This applies to any repair, not just water heaters. Anyone can change out all the parts on something and hope they fix it.
> 
> Paul


 
Too many times have I replaced a single burnt element only to have to return 2 days later to replace the darn stat. A true plumber learns from experience. To go into why, as the element ages the resistance increases lowering the amp draw on that element until it finally opens. Then we come in and put a brand new shiny element in, returning the amp draw to normal. The paper thin contacts on the nearby stat now get the full amp draw across them once again, either welding the contacts together or turning them carbon black. Ran a HWT only joint of 3 techs turning 3 to 6 calls a day for 2 years return trips look and feel bad so yep learned change out both stats and elements saves face and money.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

rocksteady said:


> Knowing how to diagnose the problem and determine what parts have failed is what separates a true plumber from a "parts replacement technician". If a toilet runs does it get an automatic full rebuild? If you replace everything you can be 90% sure you'll get it, right? I've seen guys completely rebuild water heaters without even testing voltage.  This applies to any repair, not just water heaters. Anyone can change out all the parts on something and hope they fix it.
> 
> I know what your trying to say, but with the price of labor today, I think it is foolish not to replace all the parts, that are within reason. I can't imagine someone only replacing only 1 stat, or 1 element on a water heater.
> Also when I'm repairing a toilet I always replace the flapper, or flush valve seal, & supply line, no matter what, & 80% of the time, I replace shut off too. Because call backs piss me off. Also if I replace the parts 1st time, the customer pays, 2nd time I pay. And IMO replacing all the parts is in the customers best interest, whether they like it or not.
> I'm just talkin about common sense here now, I realize an auto mechanic can't replace everything on your truck, but you don't just replace 1 ball joint,or 1 U joint,or 1 radiator hose, or 1 tire, or oil without new filter, ect.....


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

Don The Plumber said:


> rocksteady said:
> 
> 
> > Knowing how to diagnose the problem and determine what parts have failed is what separates a true plumber from a "parts replacement technician". If a toilet runs does it get an automatic full rebuild? If you replace everything you can be 90% sure you'll get it, right? I've seen guys completely rebuild water heaters without even testing voltage.  This applies to any repair, not just water heaters. Anyone can change out all the parts on something and hope they fix it.
> ...


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Don The Plumber said:


> I know what your trying to say, but with the price of labor today, I think it is foolish not to replace all the parts, that are within reason. I can't imagine someone only replacing only 1 stat, or 1 element on a water heater.
> Also when I'm repairing a toilet I always replace the flapper, or flush valve seal, & supply line, no matter what, & 80% of the time, I replace shut off too. Because call backs piss me off. Also if I replace the parts 1st time, the customer pays, 2nd time I pay. And IMO replacing all the parts is in the customers best interest, whether they like it or not.
> I'm just talkin about common sense here now, I realize an auto mechanic can't replace everything on your truck, but you don't just replace 1 ball joint,or 1 U joint,or 1 radiator hose, or 1 tire, or oil without new filter, ect.....


 
Taking the time to diagnose the problem and identify the faulty parts is what I'm talking about. I completely understand that parts of a similar age wear at a similar rate, though all the parts on an electric w/h do not wear evenly. I like to explain as much as I can to the customer and let them decide what they want to do. I'll tell them that there are other related parts that are just as old as the faulty part and that I recomend replacing them also. If they want to save money, they can choose to do that but they can't say they weren't told. If they choose to replace the elements and not the thermostats they can save a few bucks but if a 'stat goes bad in 2 weeks, they have to pay to have it replaced. I don't have a problem with replacing parts in groups like you are talking about so long as you don't just roll in and grab your "water heater rebuild kit" after a 15 second "diagnosis" and get a $450 check from the customer. I wouldn't want a mechanic to tell me "your truck's all wobbly and needs all the front end stuff; tie rod ends, ball joints, shocks, the works." I want to know what's wrong and why it needs replacement and I think our customers want the same thing.








Paul


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Its not done with that wheel you posted either. Plenty of manufacturers have info on trouble shooting online......Its not that complicated. Try checking another data base other than your OWN:thumbsup:.. This is not difficult and it doesn't need to be made or sound like it is.
> 
> Checking for continuity and a grounded element is a good start wouldn't you say? Last time i checked I had repaired a few thousand of them....that was 10 years ago:laughing: Its not like this is cutting edge technology anymore
> 
> ...


*What I think dosen't matter ... *
*You fix em your way ... And I'll fix em my way. Really you missed the point. I'm not trying to fix a water heater. I'm trying to show the plumbing trade how use a tool to find and solve electrical problems, when the need arises. To the ones that opened the file the problem #2 to find the amount of voltage necessary to make a 10' section of stainless steel wire give off 85 watts of electricity. Do that one with your meter ... TheMaster*

*PS That was used in my shop on a plastic sheet bending machine. The hot wire glowed red when power was applied. Some might think power applied to a s.s. wire at both ends is a direct short. Not so Mr. Edison proved that with the light bulb. The s.s has such a high resistance in this case (ohms) that the electriciy is transformed into heat and no short occurs. I knew the ohms because I clipped on the leads on both ends of the wire. I measured 75 ohms. The manufacture of the plastic said you need 85 watts. *
*+- 5% ... Ohms law gives you the other part of the equation. *
*in this case 79.84 volts. The sq.root of P*R*


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Learning Ohms law is a good thing. Granted on a residential water heater its two elements and two thermostats that can fail, so you can just be a parts switcher and be done with it. But what about the commercail water heaters where there is a dozen or more elements and thermostats. Knowing how to read the ohms on an element comes in real handy here. Along with knowing how to check for continuity and amprage draw.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> You can test it with a ohm/continuity tester and its accurate. Trust me I work on them all the time,I'm a plumber


 I made this post over an hour before you even posted on this thread Do you see the word OHM present? Then you come an hour later and qoute me and asking me if I had seen your post on ohm's law.



PLUMBER_BILL said:


> *What I think dosen't matter ... *
> *You fix em your way ... And I'll fix em my way. Really you missed the point. I'm not trying to fix a water heater. I'm trying to show the plumbing trade how use a tool to find and solve electrical problems, when the need arises. To the ones that opened the file the problem #2 to find the amount of voltage necessary to make a 10' section of stainless steel wire give off 85 watts of electricity. Do that one with your meter ... TheMaster*
> 
> *PS That was used in my shop on a plastic sheet bending machine. The hot wire glowed red when power was applied. Some might think power applied to a s.s. wire at both ends is a direct short. Not so Mr. Edison proved that with the light bulb. The s.s has such a high resistance in this case (ohms) that the electriciy is transformed into heat and no short occurs. I knew the ohms because I clipped on the leads on both ends of the wire. I measured 75 ohms. The manufacture of the plastic said you need 85 watts. *
> ...


A meter would not be the proper tool for that plumber bill since its a math equation that makes your meter useful. Thanks for all your help:thumbsup: Lets try to associate electricity to plumbing since this is a plumbing forum and not working on plastic bending machines...its not only off topic its the wrong website.

I didn't appreciate how you worded a post indicating I "probably" do not understand how to repair an electric water heater......this is a professionals forum so you should be thinking ALL of us understand it and if they dont then tutor them if you would like.

What did you think about the links I posted? Or are we over that now and on to other things?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I just checked some new 4500w elements and they read 13.0 ohms......my 10 yr old elements in my water heater measured 12.8 and 12.9 ohms.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I just checked some new 4500w elements and they read 13.0 ohms......my 10 yr old elements in my water heater measured 12.8 and 12.9 ohms.


Sounds like you might need a complete rebuild, bro. Maybe even a new water heater. :laughing:. Did you take the elements out of the heater to properly check the ohms.:no: 

Alright everybody take it easy, my comments were for jest. Everyone just do your own thing.


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## Hans B Shaver (Oct 30, 2009)

*water heater trip*



Ron said:


> First to guess what is wrong gets a prize.
> 
> Water 10 year old, cold tank, tripped circuit breaker, no moister on electrical components, replaced upper and lower stat, replaced upper element, all wires on correct terminals, you trip the breaker and you get full poser to the upper side of the heater, 5 min elapses the circuit trips out.
> 
> ...


ck wires at breaker, if wires look good change breaker.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

quote=Hans B Shaver;114939]ck wires at breaker, if wires look good change breaker.[/quote]


or...............call the electrician


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Indie said:


> Sounds like you might need a complete rebuild, bro. Maybe even a new water heater. :laughing:. Did you take the elements out of the heater to properly check the ohms.:no:
> 
> Alright everybody take it easy, my comments were for jest. Everyone just do your own thing.


You dont hafta remove the element from the heater to check the resistance......how much is a shotgun rebuild on a standard residental electric uppers and lowers and 4500w element thingys?:laughing:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

It's a water heater, not a space shuttle.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Burnt Toast. Best test the elements TM after your prize gets to you.. :laughing:


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