# PVC fire suppression



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

I caught a call today at some properties I normally take care of. It was a house they have converted into apartment style living for women and children. Anywho, I fixed the kitchen sink faucet and I looked up and the sprinkler system is piped in CPVC. The house was redone and had permits pulled on it. I'm kind of thinking if the fire is big enough it would just melt the plastic.. or am I missing something?


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Was the pipe orange?


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Was the pipe orange?


I believe it was....


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

That stuff is temp rated at something over 500 degrees, the heads let go at 145 degrees.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> That stuff is temp rated at something over 500 degrees, the heads let go at 145 degrees.


For real? I knew it had to be something to it. Since build permits were pulled. See I learn something new eveyday:thumbup: You are the Dolly Lama of info:laughing:


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

I don't think the pipe would melt. You can boil water in a leaf, same concept.


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

But the pipe would soften, and with the increased pressures created by heating the water, it would fail.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

uaplumber said:


> But the pipe would soften, and with the increased pressures created by heating the water, it would fail.


With the heads open the pressure wouldn't increase much. Especially considering the speed at which the water is traveling it has very little time in the pipe to heat up.


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

Yup, you got me there.


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

I can understand the concept of boiling water, we done it as kids in a paper cup. But I always thought that a fire supression should be done with iron piping. 

New one on me!


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

CPVC sprinkler systems ahve been around for a long time.


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

May be 22, but all I have ever seen was the iron ones.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

All I've ever seen myself is iron. I've heard of copper systems but I've never seen them.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Done work for a few sprinkler fitters in my day and they say that the orange CPVC is one of the better products out there. 

He said you could throw that piping in a fire barrel and it won't do anything but wilt, turn black, but won't burn.


I've watched those guys work with that grooved piping and it amazes me how fast they are, and usually one-man bands.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

It's called Blazemaster pipe. It's pretty good stuff. Goes in very fast, which makes it ideal for fast paced construction of apartments, nursing homes, assisted living, and hotels. They are about the only places I see it.

I did an assisted living one time. I put trapeze up and left room for the sprink on it. Only one rule. Do not tee off the side of the pipe. I had to run my mains on there also.They ran to every room right off the side.:furious: I called the guy and he said to chop it out. His fitters were sooo pissed.


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## plumbingpaul (Sep 18, 2008)

CPVC is common in residential applications out here they still use steel for commercial though.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

First time I have ever seen it, victolic and iron pipe is all I have seen untill now. I imagine its cheaper as well? or no


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

*Pvc Fire Suppression*

*YES IT IS CHEAPER ! :thumbsup:*

*BUT YOU HAD BETTER GET USED TO SEEING IT ON JOBS, THEY ARE USING PEX COMBO. SYSTEMS :thumbsup:*
*FOR FIRE AND POTABLE WATER AT SAME TIME,*

*CA. LIC. FIRE SPRINKLER CONTRACTOR SINCE 1990 :thumbup:*


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

Blaze master has become ruler of the land here. We are even starting to see it done in some commercial applications. However, heavy commercial is still piped in steel either threaded, or victaulic. I have a buddy who is a sprinkler head and they love it.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

JERRYMAC said:


> *YES IT IS CHEAPER ! :thumbsup:*
> 
> *BUT YOU HAD BETTER GET USED TO SEEING IT ON JOBS, THEY ARE USING PEX COMBO. SYSTEMS :thumbsup:*
> *FOR FIRE AND POTABLE WATER AT SAME TIME,*
> ...


 
*JERRY MAC*










:laughing: I couldn't help myself Jerry!


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## tciplumber (Aug 27, 2008)

I believe the theory is that the sprinklers are going to do their job before it gets hot enough to melt the pipe. If they can't handle it, you have a lot more to worry about than melted sprinkler pipe.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

I received a call tonight asking I attend an inspection at a lab here in California on Thursday. They are looking at a CPVC sprinkler line which came apart and flooded a bunch of multi-million dollar condos. I had to turn it down as I will be on an inspection in Georgia but I am sure this will not be the last time a plastic line fails. It seems everyone assumes the installation is easy so anyone can do it. There are still installation requirements which have to be met regardless of how easy it is.

Mark


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## drtyhands (Aug 16, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> I received a call tonight asking I attend an inspection at a lab here in California on Thursday. They are looking at a CPVC sprinkler line which came apart and flooded a bunch of multi-million dollar condos. I had to turn it down as I will be on an inspection in Georgia but I am sure this will not be the last time a plastic line fails. It seems everyone assumes the installation is easy so anyone can do it. There are still installation requirements which have to be met regardless of how easy it is.
> 
> Mark


Boy this project sounds familiar:shifty:


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

drtyhands said:


> Boy this project sounds familiar:shifty:


I still find that pretty funny. What are the odds we would be working in the same building when neither of us live within 30-miles through heavy traffic of the building. In the 70s I use to drive down that street everyday on my way to our shop in Beverly Hills. Back then the traffic moved fairly good compared to the parking lot we have now.

Mark


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> I received a call tonight asking I attend an inspection at a lab here in California on Thursday. They are looking at a CPVC sprinkler line which came apart and flooded a bunch of multi-million dollar condos. I had to turn it down as I will be on an inspection in Georgia but I am sure this will not be the last time a plastic line fails. It seems everyone assumes the installation is easy so anyone can do it. There are still installation requirements which have to be met regardless of how easy it is.
> 
> Mark


Mark,

When doing inspections, do you find CPVC to be a failing product as a whole? Or, is it mainly attributed to improper installation? The reason I ask is this.... Copper plumbing is a disaster here, My community is on RO and homes with type L copper are failing in some instances as soon as 5 years old. Since 1995 CPVC has become the dominant product used in the market, Pex secondary. We are now seeing the trend move into commercial. I have often wondered if the ideas and solutions for copper problems are no better and will lead to the same failure rates and problems.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Proud Plumber said:


> Mark,
> 
> When doing inspections, do you find CPVC to be a failing product as a whole? Or, is it mainly attributed to improper installation? The reason I ask is this.... Copper plumbing is a disaster here, My community is on RO and homes with type L copper are failing in some instances as soon as 5 years old. Since 1995 CPVC has become the dominant product used in the market, Pex secondary. We are now seeing the trend move into commercial. I have often wondered if the ideas and solutions for copper problems are no better and will lead to the same failure rates and problems.


For the most part the CPVC failures I have seen were installer errors and not material failures. My favorite failure was a project where the installer spent extra money on his isolators and installed Acousto-Plumb isolators. The only problem is Acousto-Plumb isolators have a chemical in them which attacks CPVC and turns it into a soft material which ruptures like a balloon. Had the installer read the specs on the Acousto-Plumb he would have known that.

Mark


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> For the most part the CPVC failures I have seen were installer errors and not material failures. My favorite failure was a project where the installed spent extra money on his isolators and installed Acousto-Plumb isolators. The only problem is Acousto-Plumb isolators have a chemical in them which attacks CPVC and turns it into a soft material which ruptures like a balloon. Had the installer read the specs on the Acousto-Plumb he would have known that.
> 
> Mark


Thanks


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

*Here's a thought...CPVC will hold without solvent.*

*Worked a job once where the GC was rocking a wall, he went to hit the rock with a 2x4 and hammer to pop it in and the water line behind it blew apart.*

*It had held for 2 weeks without solvent, might have stayed that way indefinitely if the guy hadn't hit it.*


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *Here's a thought...CPVC will hold without solvent.*
> 
> *Worked a job once where the GC was rocking a wall, he went to hit the rock with a 2x4 and hammer to pop it in and the water line behind it blew apart.*
> 
> *It had held for 2 weeks without solvent, might have stayed that way indefinitely if the guy hadn't hit it.*


We had a copper fitting go 6-months without every being soldered on a new construction job. Thankfully the fitting was in a rather tall attic and was barely dripping. I made the guy who ran the pipe do the repair. He never missed another fitting.

Mark


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

High density CPVC is a quality product, I've done work in chemical plants that have used heavy schedule CPVC for transporting corrosive gasses, the pipe that we used was not glued, we threaded it like steel pipe using special dies designed for plastic pipe.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Copper can do it to though it's rare. I went to a service call for a leak, opened up a wall and found a leaky 3/4 copper elbow. Drained the system and pulled the elbow right off. It had never been soldered. My guess is it was fluxed, put together, then sat for long enough that the resulting corrosion sealed it.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

CPVC suppression is getting more and more common in condo and community developments. It had my attention in an attic because it flexs just like you would expect. I was a bit concerned something was going to pop.

Copper suppression has ben used in resi for years. Comm is still IP.


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## bchplumbing (Oct 24, 2009)

I have installed thousands of feet of cpvc fire pipe. It really is some good stuff. You need to use special cpvc fire glue not cheap around $30.00 for a pint. When I first began installing the stuff I went over the code. 

When I saw that you have to have 200psi on the pipe for 1 hour for the inspection I was skeptical. But it works.

I am waiting for our area to pass wirsbo pex fire piping.


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## sprinklertech (Oct 24, 2010)

bchplumbing said:


> I have installed thousands of feet of cpvc fire pipe. It really is some good stuff. You need to use special cpvc fire glue not cheap around $30.00 for a pint. When I first began installing the stuff I went over the code.
> 
> When I saw that you have to have 200psi on the pipe for 1 hour for the inspection I was skeptical. But it works.
> 
> I am waiting for our area to pass wirsbo pex fire piping.


The glue used on BlazeMaster pipe is special... it actually fuses the fitting to the pipe and properly done it will not leak.

A 200 psi test is a good idea (this is standard on every job in sprinkler work) but it isn't required on one and two family dwellings.

From NFPA 13D "Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems in One- and Two-Family Dwellings and Manufactured Homes" 2002 Edition



> 4.3* Hydrostatic Tests.
> 4.3.1 *Where a fire department pumper connection is not provided, the system shall be hydrostatically tested for leakage at normal system operating pressure.*
> 4.3.2 Where a fire department pumper connection is provided, the system shall pass a hydrostatic pressure test performed in accordance with NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems.


From the appendix



> A.4.3 Testing of a system can be accomplished by filling the system with water and checking visually for leakage at each joint or coupling.
> *Fire department connections are not required for systems covered by this standard but can be installed at the discretion of the owner.* In these cases, hydrostatic tests in accordance with NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems, are necessary.


As you can see there are no requirements for a pumper or Siamese connection on one and two family dwellings. 

All you have to do is fill them with water and make sure they don't leak but some sort of hydro, to say 50 psi above normal pressure, is not a bad idea in my opinion.


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## Wafflefryer (Nov 4, 2010)

sprinklertech said:


> All you have to do is fill them with water and make sure they don't leak but some sort of hydro, to say 50 psi above normal pressure, is not a bad idea in my opinion.


 
This is a good idea for a non-integrated system.

On a multipurpose system, only go up to a max of 80 psi so you don't ruin your plumbing fixtures.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

sprinklertech said:


> The glue used on BlazeMaster pipe is special... it actually fuses the fitting to the pipe and properly done it will not leak.
> 
> A 200 psi test is a good idea (this is standard on every job in sprinkler work) but it isn't required on one and two family dwellings.
> 
> ...


http://www.plasticfailure.com/user/Why_Plastic_Pipes_Fail.pdf

email the guy and ask for the report. It will change your views on cpvc.


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## slowforthecones (Apr 20, 2009)

I prefer the proven old method of black iron.


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