# Is Plumbers Success International worth the cost?



## tmartin

_Does anyone have any opinions on Plumbers Success International? We currently run a primarily new construction company and would like to build our service business. We were approached by this company and attended their seminar. They are VERY expensive, but they do seem to offer a good starting point. I haven't been able to find any information on them other than what they have published themselves - which of course is all good. Does anyone have any real opinions on this company and if they are worth their steep price? _


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## Wiser

My opinion is no. All costs a company incurs eventually get passed on to the consumer. Considering current economic conditions, I believe it would be very hard to pass PSI expenses on and still be profitable. Rumor has it that the local PSI plumbing company is in a lot of debt and in danger of going under.

Franchises offer a lot too; however, Ben Franklin and ARS are struggling. Why? They have a great business model, but their prices (though justified) are too high! No one wants to pay you for your natl. advertising campaign, your valpak coupons, your big YP ad, or franchise fees.


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## SPH

i can't see anything on their website that would make me want to join.


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## tmartin

Thanks for your feedback...I went to a seminar in Dallas and they made it sound like an offer I could not refuse. I take it you are familiar with the organization. Have you been to a seminar? How did you hear about them? I have not signed up yet. I am still on the fence.


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## service guy

I worked for a psi company for a few months, but I quit. He had a 4 truck operation at one point, and now he has nothing and he moved out of the area. He was notorious for being insanely expensive and a bit of a con-artist if you ask me. So it wasn't really PSI's fault that he failed.
But my experience with PSI was negative overall.


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## Plumber

PSI is Mike Diamond's baby. Mike has done more for our industry than any man has ever done. His shops are the ultimate in absolutely everything. His pricing methods are beyond compare...literally. I read his column first thing every month.

He's got a skin so thick that I doubt anything bothers him. Him being a Jewish gay with parents as business partners would toughen anyone up. :laughing:

That business model may work if you are in a huge city, but no way in a small town/county. We have a Roto-Rooter and that's it for franchises because the area isn't exactly SoCal.

I'm not spending on anything except my current ads. The phones aren't ringing because people aren't buying---me included.


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## SPH

Plumber said:


> He's got a skin so thick that I doubt anything bothers him. Him being a Jewish gay with parents as business partners would toughen anyone up. :laughing:


He is gay?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Damn and I thought I was disturbing!


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## ToUtahNow

Plumber said:


> PSI is Mike Diamond's baby. Mike has done more for our industry than any man has ever done. His shops are the ultimate in absolutely everything. His pricing methods are beyond compare...literally. I read his column first thing every month.
> 
> He's got a skin so thick that I doubt anything bothers him. Him being a Jewish gay with parents as business partners would toughen anyone up. :laughing:
> 
> That business model may work if you are in a huge city, but no way in a small town/county. We have a Roto-Rooter and that's it for franchises because the area isn't exactly SoCal.
> 
> I'm not spending on anything except my current ads. The phones aren't ringing because people aren't buying---me included.


For those of us who have watched Mike Diamond Plumbing grow up and take over the then failing George Brazil Plumbing we may have a different take of what Mike and George has done for our industry. Google Mike Diamond or George Brazil Plumbing reviews and you will see what the majority of the public think of them.

Mark


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## Redwood

The public seems to have a distaste for their "Premium Pricing"


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## ToUtahNow

Redwood said:


> The public seems to have a distaste for their "Premium Pricing"


I could maybe buy that if there were a couple of positive reviews. However, as the reviews all are bad I believe it has little to do with ligitimate "Premium Pricing". As you do not work in this area I will assume you are not aware of these companies personally.

Mark


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## Wiser

PSI is a sales machine. Of course the presentation is outstanding, 'where do I sign on the dotted line?' For what they charge, they can afford the best of the best salesman. You sign before you run all the numbers, but hey, you are hopped up and you will make it back tenfold.

You do the training, then you try to sell it to your customers. It's not as easy as they made it look. Doesn't seem to work so well for you and when it does work, you feel like you need a shower afterwards. Then you want to modify the system so you can sleep at night - BUT NO YOU CAN'T - PSI wants their money. Use their system and play the game their way.

Most cannot stomach what they do.


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## tmartin

Plumbcrazy - Do you have personal experience with them? I've really been wanting to talk to someone who has been with the company and left. Obviously at the "summit" all of the plumbers involved had only good things to say about PSI. Then, when I googled looking for reviews it seemed weird how little was published about them other than their own press releases. That's part of what made us skeptical in the first place. Especially considering all of the negative responses that have come back so quickly on this forum. Anyway, thanks for the insight either way.


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## smellslike$tome

When did sales become a dirty word? We, as plumbers, sell or should be selling all the time. If I tell a customer that I can "repair this for this price, or replace it with a "good" grade for this price, a "better" grade for this price, or "best" grade for this price, I am selling and I am doing business the proper and right way. Why do we always assume we know what the customer wants? I always, as a consumer, want as many options as I can get. Give me the info and let me decide. Well guess what, when we do this for our customers, we are selling our products and services. If I go on a drain call and clear a ks drain I charge X for that. If I turn around and offer the customer some Bio"stuff" because I believe it will help them in the future, I am selling and it is in the customer's best interest for me to do so.

Now if I'm frightening old ladies into purchasing things they don't need then I am not selling, I am extorting. If Mrs. Jones has a dripping ks faucet, I go to my truck and retrieve a brand new, beautiful, stylish, ks faucet. I then explain that I can repair her old faucet for X with X warranty, then I open the box and pull out the new faucet and I explain that I can install this faucet for X with X warranty. I am selling. I did not tell Mrs. Jones that she NEEDED OR HAD TO HAVE a new faucet, but I am certainly going to offer her one. If she says "no, just repair the old one" then I will.


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## tmartin

smellslike$tome said:


> When did sales become a dirty word?
> 
> I completely agree with what you are saying. Sales is a big part of being successful, maybe the biggest, and its not a bad thing. My reservations lie mainly in the overhead brought in automatically when joining PSI - because my competition will not have that overhead. In this economy I worry that no matter what I offer customers the bottom line will be that I charge more - because I will have to to cover my costs. We are in a small town environment where word of mouth is probably #1 advertising. I worry that especially in this type of area people will not get past the high pricing. It is so important to know your costs and charge what you need to to cover them. No one needs to feel bad about that even if it does put their prices over and above the one man operations and those who are throwing out crazy low prices right now to keep going even though it will probably put them out of business in the near future. I guess its just the idea of charging more to cover the costs of joining PSI that I'm struggling with. And I really want to be sure that the return can cover the costs in this market.


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## Plumber

SPH said:


> He is gay?


Yeah.



Roast Duck said:


> Damn and I thought I was disturbing!


You are.



ToUtahNow said:


> For those of us who have watched Mike Diamond Plumbing grow up and take over the then failing George Brazil Plumbing we may have a different take of what Mike and George has done for our industry. Google Mike Diamond or George Brazil Plumbing reviews and you will see what the majority of the public think of them.
> 
> Mark


Mark, you could be the cheapest and best plumber in town and you'll get complaints and bad reviews. I got a one star review on Google Maps about a 250.00 bid that I don't even remember doing. MD doesn't care is someone can't afford his service---his plumbing service---he does care about those who can.

His plumbers have a price book and a work order. Everything is transparent and the customer can always say no.


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## M5Plumb

I have noticed through working with companies that use PSI, the sales idea is "We are the Nordstrom of Plumbing"....Conveying that idea in the service you provide as I have heard in a number of companies is that is how they can justify their pricing...So if that helps and gives some food for thought then so be it....Keep in mind, it is hard for folks to buy off on Nordstrom plumbing when Walmart can provide me what I "Need"...It is the way the sale is handled for sure but at the same time, if you can handle sale without all the hype, give the great service in order to make your overhead figures work, then you are already ahead of the game.


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## tmartin

What I'm curious about is what happens to these companies during a recession. How many Nordstroms shoppers are now at Walmart because of the economy? And where we are the average income is in the 20-30,000/yr bracket (and just to keep the analogy going...the nearest Nordstroms is 2 hours away - there are two Walmarts in 10 miles). Its funny that you mention MD not caring about the people who can't afford his service. This was one of the points that was brought up at Summit, and my business partner and I argued about. He was totally on board with that philosophy. I, however, think that at this time we can't afford to care only about the people who can afford "Nordstroms" pricing. There just aren't enough of them out there. Especially for those of us in small towns. Bottom Line...as Plumbcrazy brought up in the beginning...will this kind of business plan work in "small town America" or just in the big cities? I was not able to make it to summit, but my partner was. I would have loved to have posed that question to PSI.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Correct. 

At some point you have to stop being a salesman and fix the damn repair like you was called out to do. 

It doesn't hurt though to point out problems, but don't take it to excess. I catch myself doing this but I'm geared to make the most out of a job while I'm there, and I do quite well with this format, but then again I've rubbed people the wrong way trying to edge the call up, even though it was legitimate what I was pointing out and what they was willing to fix.


So often I enter a home with numerous plumbing problems and I'll readily let them know, but they explain that this is what I want fixed, that's it.


If you act sore about that notion, you'll definitely lose that customer because you tried to obligate them.

It doesn't happen often in my crib, but it's apparent that it does happen sometimes.


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## ToUtahNow

Plumber said:


> Mark, you could be the cheapest and best plumber in town and you'll get complaints and bad reviews. I got a one star review on Google Maps about a 250.00 bid that I don't even remember doing. MD doesn't care is someone can't afford his service---his plumbing service---he does care about those who can.
> 
> His plumbers have a price book and a work order. Everything is transparent and the customer can always say no.


Fair enough, that is the same argument George Brazil gave me when I was visiting with him on the way to the National PHCC show back in the 80s. However, since I work in MD's neighborhood I have been to jobs behind them. I also know "techs" and dispatchers who have worked for him. Let's just say my experience goes a little beyond the expert marketing model most see. You can say what you want about his prices but if his men don't preform, where's the value? When I pay for a Lincoln I am more than a little disappointed when I end up with a Yugo. 

Mark


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## Plumber

tmartin said:


> What I'm curious about is what happens to these companies during a recession. How many Nordstroms shoppers are now at Walmart because of the economy? And where we are the average income is in the 20-30,000/yr bracket (and just to keep the analogy going...the nearest Nordstroms is 2 hours away - there are two Walmarts in 10 miles). Its funny that you mention MD not caring about the people who can't afford his service. This was one of the points that was brought up at Summit, and my business partner and I argued about. He was totally on board with that philosophy. I, however, think that at this time we can't afford to care only about the people who can afford "Nordstroms" pricing. There just aren't enough of them out there. Especially for those of us in small towns. Bottom Line...as Plumbcrazy brought up in the beginning...will this kind of business plan work in "small town America" or just in the big cities? I was not able to make it to summit, but my partner was. I would have loved to have posed that question to PSI.


MD is better positioned during a recession because even if the rich aren't making as much as last year, they are still making more than the lower incomes. 

Also, being in a big city, the number of calls is better than here. When companies here say the phone isn't ringing, you can believe it. My entire county population is smaller than one neighborhood in L.A.

It is times like these when big city life is better and country towns get shuttered. I was actually googling "how to speak spanish" in case I needed to go south.:yes:


ToUtahNow said:


> Fair enough, that is the same argument George Brazil gave me when I was visiting with him on the way to the National PHCC show back in the 80s. However, since I work in MD's neighborhood I have been to jobs behind them. I also know "techs" and dispatchers who have worked for him. Let's just say my experience goes a little beyond the expert marketing model most see. You can say what you want about his prices but if his men don't preform, where's the value? When I pay for a Lincoln I am more than a little disappointed when I end up with a Yugo.
> 
> Mark


There's that. I believe in giving top notch service and parts for the money I charge.


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## Redwood

ToUtahNow said:


> I could maybe buy that if there were a couple of positive reviews. However, as the reviews all are bad I believe it has little to do with ligitimate "Premium Pricing". As you do not work in this area I will assume you are not aware of these companies personally.
> 
> Mark


Actually Mark I believe I know what they are offering...

Nordstom pricing on dollar store items.
Installed by a clueless hack.
That has a tendency to overstate the urgency of needed repairs to enhance his commission. (added later)
That has a pimp for a boss...


Is that a proper summing up of the scenario?


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## Wiser

Smells - Selling is not a dirty word. I was referring to techs (salesman & very few plumbers) selling under the guise the item could not be repaired. Trying to sell a new toilet for $650.00 because the old one had a leak - the toilet had a bad wax seal and was less than a year old. Many people have been burned by this Company and word travels. Options good - extorting - baaaadddd!

TMartin - Redwood's response above is close to reality. Our local group are not the Nordstrom's of plumbing. Not even close. All appearance, little substance. Just interviewed one of their techs who has been to all the training - very unimpressive.

No one knows their local economy better than anyone else. If you think you are like your average customer, ask yourself about this scenario.

Furnish & install Cadet III ADA toilet complete with new seat and 'No burst' supply.

Plumber #1 - Master Plumber doing side work because he is laid off. He will get to it when he has time, but he is not insured. He's too good to clean up his own mess. Price $295.00

Plumbing Co. #1 - Licensed plumbers, but hard to get a hold of and pin down for an appointment. Answering service / no office. Some of the guys and vans look rough. Had to call twice to get a return call.
Price $385.00

Plumbing Co. #2 - Licensed plumbers, office, friendly secretary, and firm appt. times. Plumbers and vans look nice and clean. Plumber wipes his feet off and cleans up after himself. Price $420.00

PSI Company - Techs, office, friendly secretary, firm appt. time. Tech looks nice, rolling billboard box truck looks nice and clean. Tech even puts booties on and cleans up after himself. Gives you a voucher for $25.00 off your next service and offers to check all of your plumbing because he is such a nice guy! Price $775.00

You're a consumer - which company would you choose? Even if PSI company had professional plumbers, I would be livid to find out I spent $355.00 more dollars for booties, a lot a yes ma'ams, and a 'free' plumbing inspection. If it cost $30-$40.00 more, I could accept that. At $355.00 I am a big mouth repeating the story over and over to anyone who would listen. Can you believe this Company ripped me off? The above scenario is close to reality when it comes to pricing in my area.


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## service guy

I don't think PSI is all bad. My experience was negative, but it was a short experience at a single shop. The owner was irresponsible, but the system he was using wasn't bad, he just applied it poorly. If it helps plumber's make money honestly, then its cool with me. 
Franchises and business systems aren't bad by themselves, its the owners of the individual company that makes the company good or not. I'm sure there are scam-artists running PSI companies out there, but that doesn't make them all bad. I believe our friend smellslikemoney2me runs his own one truck PSI company, and he seems like a really good, honest, hardworking guy. He has no employees, so you know he isn't sending out idiots to jobsites, he's going there himself as licensed plumber just like me and a lot of us.:thumbsup:
Just saying, that you can't lump all of these guys together, because each company is unique, PSI is just a business system that helps plumbers make the most of their own business.


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## 22rifle

searching for _Mike Diamond plumbing reviews_ shows this thread to be the next to top result on the second page.

oops.


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## smellslike$tome

Ok I've laid low for the most part on this one but now I will speak.

I am a one man shop and a PSI member as SG points out. 

I understand completely EVERY point of view stated so far.

I do not like everything about PSI. I have issues with a variety of their "doctrines". PSI does not require me to do anything except pay my membership fees. They make a very wide variety of resources available to me. If I never use any of them it makes no differance to them although it is my belief that they certainly would prefer that I follow the program to the letter for my greatest benefit. There are however, no PSI police.

In spite of the things I do not care for, I remain a member, at significant cost. If I were not receiving sufficient benefit from them I would not continue to allow them to debit my checking account.

My story is the same as a lot of people's story in this business. I was working for other companies, pursuing my certifications, and once I was certified a Master Plumber by my state I had the itch to "go into business for myself so I can make all that money instead of making someone else rich". So off I went, taking ANY work I could get. This was January 2004 and by August 2005 I was broke and the phone was NOT ringing. Through a series of events I became aware of PSI. I was very skeptical but ultimately joined anyway. There is no doubt in my mind that the only reason I am still in business today, not only that but thriving, is because of the influence of PSI on my company. I joined in September of 2005. I doubled my revenue in 2006. In April 2007 my wife started answering my phone, scheduling, and dispatching for me. 2007's revenue grew another 40% over 2006 and 2008's revenue grew another 15% over 2007. I just finished my best January ever and I missed a total of 3 work days for the month. I am currently looking for the right plumber to hire. I am still the business owner and am limited by other responsibilities from producing the revenue I probably could if I were simply a "tech". I am far from having this thing mastered but I have come a very long way and I cannot conceive of how it would have been possible, in my case, without PSI. I was a good plumber, having started my career in resi new con which is in my view the best place to start, but I didn't know jack squat about running a plumbing business.

PSI may not be for everyone but for me it was absolutely the right choice. It is not nearly as simplistic as some make it out to be and I agree with Utah 100%, if you pay for a Lincoln you damn well ought to receive a Lincoln. Sending incompetent service plumbers out into the world is not, imo, a good idea. I know why it is done. It is incredibly difficult to find, recruit, hire, train to your way of doing things, and retain great plumbers. The larger you get, the harder it is to do. I don't know how many plumbers Mike Diamond employs but I'm sure he must have probably more than one full time employee who's sole job description is to find warm bodies to put in trucks. I have no specific knowledge of this and am simply engaging in speculation. 

I do not know Mike Diamond personally. I have heard him speak at several "summits". Without judging him personally I will simply say he is probably not my favorite person in the world nor do I hang on his every word. However, you are a fool if you fail to recognize what he has managed to accomplish in the plumbing world.

My goal as a plumbing company is to serve my community with respect to it's plumbing needs while producing the largest profit margins possible within my market. If doing that requires me to put on a clean uniform, wear shoe covers, etc. then that is what I will do. I don't tell people they "need" things when they don't. I absolutely will, however, offer them, along with a repair option, something new and shiny. I stopped assuming I knew what people wanted or what they could afford and started giving them choices. My sales and my revenue went up. 

Love 'em or hate 'em, PSI has done alright by me.


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## M5Plumb

Along with the "Big Thanks" to Smells, I applaud his efforts and wish him and his crew continued success...That said, if it ain't broke don't fix it !!! Smells found a great opportunity and exploited it, great job! Now, we all find a niche somewhere and find it either works or not, the saying goes, don't sit there and bang your head, do what works and keep doing it. 

Smells, thank you again for that insight. Yes there are a number of folks out there who are trying to over exploit, take advantage, whatever you want to call it. Things come full circle, call it Karma if you will.

I am always thankful, and in any endeavor is to always be just that, thankful !!!
God Bless


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## Wiser

Smells - I knew you were PSI from the beginning. However, with you, I never questioned your integrity. PSI does have valuable business information and systems in place; however, I do question the long term return on the investment. PSI fees are expensive and this is passed on to the consumer. Cost is cost, but look at it this way. A company vehicle is a legitimate expense. If you show up at the customers home in a nice pick up, no one questions it. If you show up in a Lambougini and want to pass that cost along, customers tend to pull back. 

Any company that advertises they can help you make profits you never dreamed possible will attract slimy, greed balls as well as legitimate businessmen like yourself. My concern is that PSI has sold it's system with little regard as to how some are using it to exploit homeowners. This in turn hurts you. You are doing everything above board and the slime balls are using the system and training to exploit and steal which reflects poorly on you. PSI must know how some are using this system in that way, but as long as they get their checks, it's just an inconvenient truth.

Example - Six months ago we ran water and sewer lines for a manufactured home. Line backs up on Sun. and HO (we worked for the manuf. home co.) calls one of our competitors. They show up and call in a drain cleaning company. Cannot get cable to punch through. Run camera and the top of the pipe is missing. Customer charged $1200.00. Manuf. home rep. calls us, our competitor wants to charge another $700.00 to dig up where the break is and in addition replace the entire line (no estimate on what they were going to charge for that) that was just put in six months ago! The water & sewer authority dig it up for free because it is within their jurisdiction. Apparently when stumps were removed, they took some of our pipe with it. Free vs. $1,900.00 + the cost of running a new sewer line that was not needed.


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## Song Dog

Smells, That was a AWESOME testimonial and very well put.:thumbsup:

With my past experience, without a doubt, should of went PSI before a Fanchise. If I was PSI from the beginning, I would probably still be PSI now. I am just blessed to be able to say I am not a Franchise anymore.
The franchise was basically PSI. I think PSI is a good thing, but since I got alot from my experience, I just use it in a different way.
Diagnos the repair, show the ho what it will cost to repair, then show replacement cost, and ask for what they would like to do. If you don't ask for it, you will never get it.

In Christ,

Song Dog


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

*Number of Complaints 52*

*Type of Response:*

*24 Making a full refund as the customer requested*

*11 Making a partial refund*

*16 Agreeing to perform according to their contract*

*1 Refusing to make an adjustment*

*0 Refuse to adjust, relying on the terms of contract*

*0 Unanswered*

*0 Unassigned*
__

*52*




Anyone who belongs to Plumber's Success International, 


Is this your BBB Report? 

If no one claims it,

Anyone want to know who it belongs to? 


We all know that with the above, there is far more victims than what you see, 


These are just the ones that felt it was necessary to demand what they felt was their money, and the scales were tipped way over what normal pricing entails. 



Those damn curious birds, always moving the message. :whistling2:


A good, reliable plumbing company that's profitable, never resembles the above, EVER. 


What dictates profitable? 


To some, it's a number. To the general public? It's surmised by your method of operation. Having numbers of years operating as a plumbing business usually puts it out there that there's a reason you're doing it, and having a long list of bad reports along with a *D rating speaks volumes.*


*I'm not buying the "Volume" a business does as an excuse either. I know of a company in my town that's rather large and has never had a BBB complaint, and he's one of the biggest new construction/residential service plumbing companies in the area. 40 plus years going strong, no way he's hurting. They do all the big non-union jobs in the area and do it quite well. A true marksman of a plumber. *


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## solarman.net

We have subscribed to this and Contractors 2000 . Both are VERY expensive . 

If you can afford this now , and you are willing to adopt the policies that they teach you ...do it . I can tell you that we learned more than we ever knew before . ( we did this a few years back during the housing boom ... money was FLOWING) it's good info . Our motto ... when there are no fish biting ... paint and polish the boat ... good luck


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## Plumber

solarman.net said:


> We have subscribed to this and Contractors 2000 . Both are VERY expensive .


What is the cost? What are some of the programs?


Roast Duck said:


> *...*
> 
> *I'm not buying the "Volume" a business does as an excuse either.... *


I buy the volume excuse. Out of the hundreds of customers I had last year, there were some serious complaints. If this was L.A. and I was doing thousands of customers per year, 52 complaints ain't nothing---maybe 2% of all calls.


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## ToUtahNow

I can tell you in the 20-years I had my shop and the 10-years the new owner has had the shop there has not been a single BBB complaint and we are in Los Angeles. The new guy has picked up a single non BBB complaint from a guy who says he likes the owner but was disappointed the price of repiping his home did not include a new 100' water service. 

Mark


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Plumber said:


> What is the cost? What are some of the programs?
> I buy the volume excuse. Out of the hundreds of customers I had last year, there were some serious complaints. If this was L.A. and I was doing thousands of customers per year, 52 complaints ain't nothing---maybe 2% of all calls.





ToUtahNow said:


> I can tell you in the 20-years I had my shop and the 10-years the new owner has had the shop there has not been a single BBB complaint and we are in Los Angeles. The new guy has picked up a single non BBB complaint from a guy who says he likes the owner but was disappointed the price of repiping his home did not include a new 100' water service.
> 
> Mark


 

There you have it. 


Proof *Mark's statement* that how a plumbing business operates is reflected by the peering that the BBB does.



Plumber, 


What excuses "serious complaints" and what is the allowable 2% when it comes to customer satisfaction and tieing loose ends.


You mentioned 100's in your own words, not thousands which would indicate you're significantly higher than 2%. 


Why is it that I've operated 7 years without 1 single complaint... I promise I've had a customer not like me, it's a given.


To take it a step farther, when you see a system like BBB indicating several complaints, there's usually hundreds if not possibly 1000's of people that had the same thing happen to them, just didn't follow the avenue of reporting it.

You have to be pretty determined to jump the hoops, and "just 52" means there's a whole lot more than we know, or is recorded.

Congrats Mark on that fine accomplishment.

And I bet you made money, good money while you was doing it as well. :laughing:


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## ToUtahNow

I don't give a lot of credibility to BBB but the fact they have 52 people pissed enough to seek out the BBB and complain tells me there is a bunch of unresolved problems with customers. I have gone into my own pocket more than once to make sure all of my customers were happy once we were done. 

And yes I did make a pretty good profit doing it.

Mark


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## Plumber

Roast Duck said:


> There you have it.
> 
> 
> Proof *Mark's statement* that how a plumbing business operates is reflected by the peering that the BBB does.
> 
> 
> 
> Plumber,
> 
> 
> What excuses "serious complaints" and what is the allowable 2% when it comes to customer satisfaction and tieing loose ends.
> 
> 
> You mentioned 100's in your own words, not thousands which would indicate you're significantly higher than 2%.
> 
> 
> Why is it that I've operated 7 years without 1 single complaint... I promise I've had a customer not like me, it's a given.
> 
> 
> To take it a step farther, when you see a system like BBB indicating several complaints, there's usually hundreds if not possibly 1000's of people that had the same thing happen to them, just didn't follow the avenue of reporting it.
> 
> You have to be pretty determined to jump the hoops, and "just 52" means there's a whole lot more than we know, or is recorded.
> 
> Congrats Mark on that fine accomplishment.
> 
> And I bet you made money, good money while you was doing it as well. :laughing:


Maybe, maybe not. Mike Diamond does upward of twenty million dollars ($20,000,000.00) a year in the most populous part of America. That's a lot of service and repair. What are the odds of getting a complaint?

The BBB thing snowballs. All it takes is one complaint and then everyone complains. Some complaints aren't rational---could be anyone complaining.

Not one complaint in 7 years? Wow. I consider 2% (2 out of 100) not a bad record at all.


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## Plumber

smellslike$tome said:


> ....
> Love 'em or hate 'em, PSI has done alright by me.


What is the monthly dues?


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## smellslike$tome

Plumber said:


> What is the monthly dues?


I don't think that I have the liberty to reveal that number but it's stout. Let's just say that you could easily make a truck payment with it and depending on what you bought, maybe even two truck payments.

Having said that, there are specific tools that I received from PSI that I can directly attribute to 10X that number in revenue. Maybe I would have discovered these tools on my own eventually but I really, really, REALLY, doubt it.

It's not for everyone. I was scared to death when I joined because I was promising money I didn't have at the time. Looking back on it though, for me, there is no mistaking that it is what turned my failing business around.

Look, I'm not a PSI salesman, they have enough of those already. I'm not trying to talk anybody into anything. All I'm saying is that up to now it has worked very well for me. I'm new to plumbing relatively speaking. 10 years and 2 months ago if you had suggested that I would ever have anything to do with the plumbing industry I would have laughed in your face. When I went into business I could do the field work but I didn't know how to price it and I had no clue how to run a successful plumbing business. Had I continued doing what I was doing I could not possibly have survived far into 2006. PSI made the difference for me. I can't tell you how long I will remain a member of the orginazation, maybe from now on. Maybe I stop seeing the benefit somewhere along the way and if I do then I will bail. For now though it is worth the money that I pay them.


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## PlumberDave

Up front, love where I'm at and the co I work for, not proud of how we got here I'm a just a plumber here.
PSI in 2007, Contractors 2000 in 2003. today 38 service, sewer and rough, trucks on the road 22,000 jobs in 2008 gross 14mil 2008 and way tooo knowing of the BBB and WA AG office. 2003 6 trucks less than 8000 jobs 2mil+ no BBB complaints. They worked for us in a way and like I said I am not proud of how they worked.
Every week I watch those stupid videos, and I got to say for me to sit there is absolutely stupid! BUT we have a lot of younger guys that don't know folks don't expect tracks on their carpet or hand prints on the wall because they needed our help and our help is dirty work. They don't know that if you don't ask they won't say yes. These younger guys need something and in our case it has paid. In the same thought their programs do push sales for your commish (Buyers Remorse)over the right reccomendation (Loyal Customer). I read history and since the industrial revolution pushing breeds remorse everytime not sometimes. I am solid on the idea of loyal customers to keep me sleeping at night.


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## Wiser

BBB 2% rating is unacceptable. Rarely will a customer take this step, so if 2% do, it means your dissatisfied customers is much greater.

We are going on our fifth year and not one registered complaint (except one guy was disappointed our 'free' estimate didn't come w/ Model & Serial Numbers - the BBB tossed it out). Last year we did 1500 calls.

Personally, I like having control over our reputation. Having PSI or a Franchise - you run the risk of getting lumped with bad apples. Their reputation becomes your reputation - good or bad.

I met with a business owner from Tennesee? a few years back and his costs were around $300.00 / week for PSI. This did not include his initial buy in which was $20,000. - $40,000.00. Cannot remember the exacts, only that it blew us away. He was happy with it and in his 2nd or 3rd PSI year.


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## smellslike$tome

I will also say this, as a one man shop, I feel the cost much more intensely. The membership fees do not increase as your company grows so when you spread the cost in terms of a per truck or per technician average the cost becomes less and less. If you have 5 trucks, the cost vs. benefit is imo a no brainer. If you have 10 or more trucks I think you would scarcely even feel it at all.

I'm not sure how PSI determines what they charge. I do know that PC's numbers were a bit off with respect to what I am paying. I've always assumed that everybody paid the same and I think this is the case. My "buy in" in 2005 was considerably less than 20K and my weekly has not yet reached $300 per week. The weekly does go up every year, usually about $10 per week or so but is not $300. I'm sure the buy in has gone up too but I really have no idea what it is today.


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## smellslike$tome

One more thing. Once you "buy in" and start paying the membership fees don't expect that that that is the last opportunity PSI will present you with to spend money. There is a myriad of other training classes, special seminars, etc. that you can elect to use at additional cost. PSI is a business. They make their living from plumbing companies. Now if you never take another class, their is still a mountain of material that you will receive initially that will have a huge impact on your business. I just don't want anyone to think that once you sign up that that's it. They will constantly promote their training schedule. I sent my wife to one class and there is no question that it was worth the cost. I would like to attend some of their training it's just harder for me to be gone.


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## Plumber

Plumbcrazy said:


> BBB 2% rating is unacceptable. Rarely will a customer take this step, so if 2% do, it means your dissatisfied customers is much greater.
> 
> We are going on our fifth year and not one registered complaint (except one guy was disappointed our 'free' estimate didn't come w/ Model & Serial Numbers - the BBB tossed it out). Last year we did 1500 calls.
> 
> Personally, I like having control over our reputation. Having PSI or a Franchise - you run the risk of getting lumped with bad apples. Their reputation becomes your reputation - good or bad.
> 
> I met with a business owner from Tennesee? a few years back and his costs were around $300.00 / week for PSI. This did not include his initial buy in which was $20,000. - $40,000.00. Cannot remember the exacts, only that it blew us away. He was happy with it and in his 2nd or 3rd PSI year.


I don't think BBB is up here... When people complain here, you hear about it from the supply house geek or the wife. I'd rather deal with the BBB. :laughing:

I guess you wouldn't have to tell customers that you're PSI---kinda a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. We have some aggressive plumbing companies here, so PSI wouldn't be that noticable and I'm sure the program is adjustable.

Too bad its not flexible in pricing. 20 grand here is harder to get than 20 grand in the city.



smellslike$tome said:


> One more thing. Once you "buy in" and start paying the membership fees don't expect that that that is the last opportunity PSI will present you with to spend money. There is a myriad of other training classes, special seminars, etc. that you can elect to use at additional cost. PSI is a business. They make their living from plumbing companies. Now if you never take another class, their is still a mountain of material that you will receive initially that will have a huge impact on your business. I just don't want anyone to think that once you sign up that that's it. They will constantly promote their training schedule. I sent my wife to one class and there is no question that it was worth the cost. I would like to attend some of their training it's just harder for me to be gone.


 I figured that MD would max out the profit angle. Training classes are invaluable.....


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## grandpa

Is diamond the one that advertises on the radio that his plumbers "smell good" , guaranteed to smell good or free? Quite a concept.

They also are running a radio ad that says "if you don't have an antisiphon ballcock , you may be drinking toilet tank water"

While that is a true statement, I think it is sort of out there on the fringe of being an uncalled for scare tactic.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Plumbcrazy said:


> BBB 2% rating is unacceptable. Rarely will a customer take this step, so if 2% do, it means your dissatisfied customers is much greater.
> 
> We are going on our fifth year and not one registered complaint (except one guy was disappointed our 'free' estimate didn't come w/ Model & Serial Numbers - the BBB tossed it out). Last year we did 1500 calls.
> 
> Personally, I like having control over our reputation. Having PSI or a Franchise - you run the risk of getting lumped with bad apples. Their reputation becomes your reputation - good or bad.
> 
> I met with a business owner from Tennesee? a few years back and his costs were around $300.00 / week for PSI. This did not include his initial buy in which was $20,000. - $40,000.00. Cannot remember the exacts, only that it blew us away. He was happy with it and in his 2nd or 3rd PSI year.


 
I found this very enlightening, and very disturbing in the same stroke.

I've never been on the brink of losing my business so I've been moving up from the go. My health will be the kick to the chins when I go down, the very reason I started 2 other companies. Remember the saying; "Don't put all your eggs in one basket." Granted, if I was in that situation, knowing how much money I fork over to another company, it sounds purely like the "pay for play" amway pyramid scheme we've all come to know and love.

Smell, now I know why you have to charge what you do, you're at a forced hand to do so because nothing in the name of profit starts until you've paid them first.


Why isn't anyone "breaking free" of this system once they harvest the valuable knowledge, or is it designed where you sign your life away? 

To me, it sounds like franchise design and I like to make money, but only at my accord. I'm driving the don't fix what ain't broke mentality and I report to no one but myself. 

I can see it working for others however and it makes people better off I suppose. Can't knock anyone for that. 

The good thing is I can control what leaves my hands in the form of payment and if the rock dropped on me tomorrow, I'm better prepared to have limited my outgoing. 

If there's plumbers in my area that belong to plumber's success international in my area, they indirectly employ me because people will shuffle to a lower price every time unless force tactic is used in the home to commit...so much like roto rooter does with people upset, calling me because 

"The guy told me that I have to commit no later than tomorrow to fix my clogged drain, and having nothing but women here is why you keep having problems." 

Niiiice. What a way to sell a job. Make them feel guilty for being women and tell them the clock is ticking for the countdown that the world is ending if you don't let them replace the pipe.


I'll never be that type of plumber, ever. I tell people straight up; "I'm just educating you on these matters, choose to do what you feel is in your best interest." <<< That statement has yielded me more work than any 3rd party will produce for me, knowledge from within.


You go grandpa! I think my dog and me had toilet water this morning in the coffee! P-tooey!!! 


There's good ways and bad ways to generate calls; Last night when I typed in my craigslist ad, 


I wrote in service areas such as: 


Portugal
Devil's Den
Fort Willy 
Cow's Tongue

:laughing:


People have to see you have a sense of humor, embedded in the fine print. 


Craigslist is giving me search engine status and is pushing down others because the search engines are crawling the recent movements of craigslist.

So, don't care if I don't get calls off CL, it's making my competition move down to page 2, which is exactly what I want. 

The chances of people searching for page 2 and 3 for a plumber is rare at best.



Still, nobody wants to know who's BBB reliability report I put up? It wasn't mine! That's a promise, check me out. 


I'm waiting for a 80 gallon electric heater to be delivered at a store that serves a pizza parlor, subway and a grocery store. They call I go, the money flows. I used my dog as an excuse to back another call off. I just didn't tell her that a dog treat brought him back to life. :whistling2:

Good doggie, good damn doggie!!! Gotta move calls when the money is there for the pickins.


When I payed off my 40 grand debt (To start plumbing company)and then to start my two businesses last year, I saw no reason to expand my horizons in the plumbing field. I can work harder than I do now, and I already work a lot. I don't want to be a big plumbing company ever, don't want the headaches. I don't need to make a 1/4 million a year, have 10 trucks and huge overhead, spending 30 grand a year in phone services, $50,000 a year in advertising.

Every single company that was big, ended up always going small because it seemed the waste factor was substantial enough to warrant it.


Here's proof in the pudding: 


I constantly, always get put on these mailers of large auction companies that send notice to me of large or small plumbing companies that went bankrupt, have to liquidate their assets. 

This has been going on for years, and lately it's getting worse. There are companies right now that EVEN if they pull out of this slump, they are still going to be forced to shut down months, years later because they can't get out of behind the 8 ball. Start owing back taxes and that's a guarantee. 

Here's a great bit of advice that's helping me; In my situation, I'm constantly lending money from one business to another in the form of a loan, to keep the ball rolling. Shareholder Loans, Shareholder Distribution, Shareholder Loan Repayments that all work in harmony like clockwork in building a company from the ground. 

Since this money is "loaned" it is not taxable, and I'm not using it for personal wealth. These movements are well known by tax code and there's no problem with this, along as you have a clean paper trail, to which I do so no one can knock me off my perch. 

In a plumbing business, there's only so many corners of the room you can go to...the bigger you become the more you're ept to advertise just to keep the leaking balloon pumped up. That can be a slippery slope and there's a lot of national plumbing companies hurting like a sore coochie right now because their operation costs are way above their earnings. This is a sort of an implosion of sorts and they'll pull through, but it will come at a significant cost. 

Can't put it any plainer; I felt no desire to become anything more than a one man band in plumbing, the next step is one that is very painful, creating two of everything that I need. No guarantee that the truck will leave monday morning, no matter if I pay him like an owner of the company; the greed factor will kick in, the ability to "do as they may" becomes a stronghold I'm not willing to part with yet.

And the threat to leave for $2 more an hour somewhere else will always be the predicament. Opening up 2 other businesses eliminated that shortfall completely.


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## ToUtahNow

I can see where someone with little business exposure who is just started out could benefit with programs like these. I can also see where a company which is struggling would benefit by these programs assuming they can afford to participate. The part I really find amazing though is how George Brazil, then Maio and now Mike Diamond are making more money by marketing these programs then they are by doing plumbing. 

Mark


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## Wiser

smellslike$tome said:


> I will also say this, as a one man shop, I feel the cost much more intensely. The membership fees do not increase as your company grows so when you spread the cost in terms of a per truck or per technician average the cost becomes less and less. If you have 5 trucks, the cost vs. benefit is imo a no brainer. If you have 10 or more trucks I think you would scarcely even feel it at all.
> 
> I'm not sure how PSI determines what they charge. I do know that PC's numbers were a bit off with respect to what I am paying. I've always assumed that everybody paid the same and I think this is the case. My "buy in" in 2005 was considerably less than 20K and my weekly has not yet reached $300 per week. The weekly does go up every year, usually about $10 per week or so but is not $300. I'm sure the buy in has gone up too but I really have no idea what it is today.


The guy I spoke with had been in business for a while and had at least 4 or 5 trucks. He bought all the accounting software, bookkeeping, etc. I'm positive it was at least $20,000.00 and I am not sure why, but the $40,000.00 rings in my head. If it was in the $10,000. range, we probably would have considered it. Once we heard monthly fees to keep using the system - it was 'no way.' I may still have it in my files somewhere. At one time we had the downfalls of "upfront" and "flatrate" pricing on our website. The information we had learned about the system was part of our justification for T & M. We even had a link to PSI for a while showing customers plumbers quotes "I never dreamed I could be so profitable." I have since taken it off our site as there are honest companies that use these systems.

Many companies go under because they don't know their costs. Once you charge accurately and can be profitable, why keep forking over money to PSI or a franchise? Other companies offer selling / customer service / marketing courses for a lot less.


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## ToUtahNow

smellslike$tome said:


> I don't think that I have the liberty to reveal that number but it's stout. Let's just say that you could easily make a truck payment with it and depending on what you bought, maybe even two truck payments.


This is one of the things that bothers me about all of these type of programs. They do not want customers to know rates and what they are paying for and now users of their services are not at liberty to discuss what they pay. There is generally a reason for using all of the smoke and mirrors. The reason is usually because no one would agree to it without the extra pressure of the hard sell. I can't think of anything I just go out and buy without first doing my home work. How can you do your home work when you are kept in the dark until your sitting with a sales person?

Mark


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## Plumber

ToUtahNow said:


> This is one of the things that bothers me about all of these type of programs. They do not want customers to know rates and what they are paying for and now users of their services are not at liberty to discuss what they pay. There is generally a reason for using all of the smoke and mirrors. The reason is usually because no one would agree to it without the extra pressure of the hard sell. I can't think of anything I just go out and buy without first doing my home work. How can you do your home work when you are kept in the dark until your sitting with a sales person?
> 
> Mark


That's why I feel uncomfortable not giving prices over the phone because it could be interpreted as a hard sell. 

I hardly ever do it---give prices over the phone--- and then I'll lowball just to get in the door. We're not talking ten of thousands, so its usually not a big deal.


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## M5Plumb

ToUtahNow said:


> I can see where someone with little business exposure who is just started out could benefit with programs like these. I can also see where a company which is struggling would benefit by these programs assuming they can afford to participate. The part I really find amazing though is how George Brazil, then Maio and now Mike Diamond are making more money by marketing these programs then they are by doing plumbing.
> 
> Mark



I remember those Maio trucks in San Diego years back, that same name now known as the Maio success systems is into very similar ground as the PSI thing, in fact, I think Maurice Maio probably was the first to really break ground in the Maio universtiy atmosphere with selling, etc etc etc...None the less, all these groups have one thing in common, they are here to support the plumber who is willing to step out on a limb and really persue the Nordstrom mentality. Smells, your doing good stuff with PSI, if it aint broke, don't fix it. Any others out there doing similarly, same thing, do what works for you! BooooYaahhh !!:thumbup:


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## TotalPlumber

I considered PSI when starting my company. I drove from Birmingham, AL to Cincinnati, OH for their first "career day" exposure meeting. I did not receive a hard sell. I did however sit one on one with one of their salesmen. He was very professional and polished, as was their product. My wife and I made the trip together, and she was sold on the concept, completely. At the time I was a 1 man shop running out of my spare bedroom. The initial fee that they were asking for was $12.000.00 (not terribly high, but certainly not pocket change). They also wanted $660.00 per month starting immediately. 

I paid them $1,500.00 at the meeting in Cincinnati, only to change my mind before the 1st meeting 5 months later in Miami, FL. My sales contact was very friendly and said he understood about my decision. He agreed to refund my $1,500.00, which they did after about 10 phone calls, faxes and lots of jumping through hoops.

I believe that they have a ligit product for SOME of the plumbing businesses out there. My company is still in it's infancy, just under 2 years, but gross revenue is much more than my plan, however, as posted here before, profits seem to be elusive.

I don't charge what PSI said I should, however, I'm not the "low cost alternative" either, if you ask me, low cost alternative is another way of saying "I'm not serious about my business and have such a low self-esteem that I'm not worth more".

God Bless you, Smell$, if it works for you, great, ride that gravy train!

For those of you who are on the fence about PSI, give 'em a chance. It may be for you what it was for Smell$. 

thats why Baskin Robbins makes 31 flavors, no one thing applies to all situations!
Total


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## Plumber

TotalPlumber said:


> ....My company is still in it's infancy, just under 2 years, but gross revenue is much more than my plan, however, as posted here before, profits seem to be elusive.
> 
> I don't charge what PSI said I should, however, I'm not the "low cost alternative" either, if you ask me, low cost alternative is another way of saying "I'm not serious about my business and have such a low self-esteem that I'm not worth more".....


The post was great except for this bit.

If you're not making profit, it's either because a) you are NOT charging enough, or b) your expectations for making profit is too high. 

Plumbers are a luxury, charge (and act) accordingly. Also, very few owners rise above middle class and are happy with that. Shoot, most of us should be digging ditches on the county farm, so be grateful.

This should not be confused with not getting calls or paying too much for the calls you get. Getting calls is an art onto itself and probably the most complicated part of our business.


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## Song Dog

Plumber said:


> Getting calls is an art onto itself and probably the most complicated part of our business.


That is so true. You have to find what works and run with it. We told our franchise consultant what we should do for our area and she told us that it was a waste of our money and do what the book says to submit. It never worked, put us in a financial bind. We left the franchise and started doing the marketing we mentioned to her and POOF, we are doing better than ever.

Back to TPs post, at least you got money back. The franchise made us do the 100% satisfaction or the ho don't pay. We were not one bit satisfied with our experience, and said we sould get our money back:laughing::laughing: That never happened. They got their money and didn't care about anything else.
Sorry about getting off topic, the disapproval I feel for the franchise is still eating me up sometimes and just needed to vent (thats a code approved vent BTW)

In Christ,

Song Dog


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## joenewyork17

I had to join this forum, just to get my point across,
PSI has one thing and one thing only in mind when signing you up. Residual income. And making it impossible to leave. I was a member for 8 months and not once did they contact me for any reason other then to sell a program, product or upcoming seminar. Their summit were they say, we will contact you, come and see you, guide you, is all a sales pitch.

The day I was trying to leave, the FIRST question, " Well I'm sorry to see you go, can we buy you out." They want other PSI members in my area, which when I signed up was told had 2, now I was leaving there was 5, hmmm, to buy you so the programs stay afloat.

I am in an area the NY, were your customer testimonials and refferals are huge and because of that, companies like Amway and Herbalife, and PSI's ways do not do very well.

Do not make the mistake of thinking they are going to save you, no way. Waking up, going to work, and being honest to yourself, your employee's and of course your customers will far surpass the theory of PSI. Go hire a sales person at 450.00 + commish. per week and that will equal out what PSI charges, and if that person does not work out, well, letting him/her go is a lot less painful. 

No, I did not have a bad experience with them, as a matter of fact, it was sold and bought with high expectations on both parties. Just saying, why do you need some outside, cross country, "business auditor" who charges very high fee's for what they claim they will do.


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## pcplumber

*i'm glad you said it.*



joenewyork17 said:


> I had to join this forum, just to get my point across,
> PSI has one thing and one thing only in mind when signing you up. Residual income. And making it impossible to leave. I was a member for 8 months and not once did they contact me for any reason other then to sell a program, product or upcoming seminar. Their summit were they say, we will contact you, come and see you, guide you, is all a sales pitch.
> 
> The day I was trying to leave, the FIRST question, " Well I'm sorry to see you go, can we buy you out." They want other PSI members in my area, which when I signed up was told had 2, now I was leaving there was 5, hmmm, to buy you so the programs stay afloat.
> 
> I am in an area the NY, were your customer testimonials and refferals are huge and because of that, companies like Amway and Herbalife, and PSI's ways do not do very well.
> 
> Do not make the mistake of thinking they are going to save you, no way. Waking up, going to work, and being honest to yourself, your employee's and of course your customers will far surpass the theory of PSI. Go hire a sales person at 450.00 + commish. per week and that will equal out what PSI charges, and if that person does not work out, well, letting him/her go is a lot less painful.
> 
> No, I did not have a bad experience with them, as a matter of fact, it was sold and bought with high expectations on both parties. Just saying, why do you need some outside, cross country, "business auditor" who charges very high fee's for what they claim they will do.


Thank you very much. I am glad you said this because I was waiting for someone who actually joined to tell what you did. I went three of PSI's meetings only because I was impressed with the B.S. and the great free lunch. I always have an urge to sock people who sign up after listening to their hype. I give PSI credit for what they are doing for themselves. I think they are making over $4 million a month because they now have PSI for plumbers, HVAC, electrical, and maybe a few more. At the last meeting I went to their goal is to get $24,000 up front and $900 a month from each member for 5 years, and they want something like 473 members in each trade.

3 trades x 473 x $900 X $3,449,478 + 

3 trades x $473 x ($24,000 / 60) = $567,000 per month

Grand total every month $4,016,000 at least this is their goal

Last meeting I went to was $24,000 to sign up, $900 per month for 5 years, plus you had to pay $500+ per month for the internet connection for bar coding in your truck, plus they told you that you could send your employees to their school in Minnesota (or some place) but they did not tell you that you had to pay extra for the school, + I hear you had to pay a lot of money to go to their Round Table in Florida that they said was free. They told members they were giving you an $8,000 software package for bar coding and failed to mention the connection fee and monthly fees.

There is also another company called Nexstar that is even worse. They are really full of beans and a lot of plumbers join.


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## 22rifle

pcplumber said:


> Thank you very much. I am glad you said this because I was waiting for someone who actually joined to tell what you did. I went three of PSI's meetings only because I was impressed with the B.S. and the great free lunch. I always have an urge to sock people who sign up after listening to their hype. I give PSI credit for what they are doing for themselves. I think they are making over $4 million a month because they now have PSI for plumbers, HVAC, electrical, and maybe a few more. At the last meeting I went to their goal is to get $24,000 up front and $900 a month from each member for 5 years, and they want something like 473 members in each trade.
> 
> 3 trades x 473 x $900 X $3,449,478 +
> 
> 3 trades x $473 x ($24,000 / 60) = $567,000 per month
> 
> Grand total every month $4,016,000 at least this is their goal
> 
> Last meeting I went to was $24,000 to sign up, $900 per month for 5 years, plus you had to pay $500+ per month for the internet connection for bar coding in your truck, plus they told you that you could send your employees to their school in Minnesota (or some place) but they did not tell you that you had to pay extra for the school, + I hear you had to pay a lot of money to go to their Round Table in Florida that they said was free. They told members they were giving you an $8,000 software package for bar coding and failed to mention the connection fee and monthly fees.
> 
> There is also another company called Nexstar that is even worse. They are really full of beans and a lot of plumbers join.


Why do you say Nexstar is worse?


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## pcplumber

*Why Nexstar is worse!*



22rifle said:


> Why do you say Nexstar is worse?


I went to Nexstar's meeting in Ohio two years ago. They did not have any good ad copy, no good sales techniqhes, they try to show off all their trade secrets, and they have nothing that is valuable. They took us to a funky plumbing stop with about 12 non-productive people and about 12 productive people. The company has to share the profit between three (maybe two) brothers and they claim they net about 7% out of gross sales of $2.8 million. The way they spoke and what they said was very tacky. They said over 30 times they were not doing what they do for money. One of the owner's (or senior partners) said she was doing it to help save the elephants ans she gave this sob story that was sickening.

Perhaps, you are aware that every one of these infomercials or whatever you call these things have a sob story. They seriously try to play on your emotions. The main speaker told his sob story that he was in the service in some state and his father died. Of course, he was poor. His father died in California and his mother lived in Texas (or some place). Because he had only enough money to visit one person, it broke his heart to have to decide whether to go to his mother, or deceased father. Are you crying yet? Well, after this incident this fool decided that he would never be broke again. Yes! And you can learn how he became rich if you give him $24,000 (can't remember exact amount). I can't stand these people because they were so trashy. I sent them several email and even called them to give them my thoughts. I asked people in the room not to sign up and think about what what was said for a few days. I even asked people who signed up to ask for their money back until they gave it a little thought. T

Over 30 times, the main speaker said he owned a motor home and was on a 6-month work sabbatical. I almost jumped up and wanted to create a commotion because he was seriously full of B.S. He lived in Arizona and was working au a serious sweat in Ohio trying to sell his services to plumbers. I would not call this a sabbatical from work.

Both Nexstar and PSI work very hard to control what everyone thinks during their sales pitch. PSI has several tables set up for lunch. There is one PSI member on each table so they can control the conversation during lunch. PSI does not want people discussing whether or not people see value in the B.S. Everything at PSI and Nexstart is very orchestrated and it is amazing how many people can't see sort B.S. from fact.

I can't figure this out. The Nexstar meeting was two full days. Some fools signed up within the first two hours. One of them was sitting at my table. Every time someone signed up Nexstar gave them a toy that made a lot of noise. This is another way to work on your emotions. Why would someone make a decision so fast?

Nexstar also plays another really sick game. They give people numbers at the table and tell people with specific numbers to change tables. This is orchestrated so you split from the person you go with. This way, you cannot speak with your partner about the B.S. They also split up the partners when we visited the plumbing shop. I refused to split up and play their games.


----------



## 22rifle

pcplumber said:


> I went to Nexstar's meeting in Ohio two years ago. They did not have any good ad copy, no good sales techniqhes, they try to show off all their trade secrets, and they have nothing that is valuable. They took us to a funky plumbing stop with about 12 non-productive people and about 12 productive people. The company has to share the profit between three (maybe two) brothers and they claim they net about 7% out of gross sales of $2.8 million. The way they spoke and what they said was very tacky. They said over 30 times they were not doing what they do for money. One of the owner's (or senior partners) said she was doing it to help save the elephants ans she gave this sob story that was sickening.
> 
> Perhaps, you are aware that every one of these infomercials or whatever you call these things have a sob story. They seriously try to play on your emotions. The main speaker told his sob story that he was in the service in some state and his father died. Of course, he was poor. His father died in California and his mother lived in Texas (or some place). Because he had only enough money to visit one person, it broke his heart to have to decide whether to go to his mother, or deceased father. Are you crying yet? Well, after this incident this fool decided that he would never be broke again. Yes! And you can learn how he became rich if you give him $24,000 (can't remember exact amount). I can't stand these people because they were so trashy. I sent them several email and even called them to give them my thoughts. I asked people in the room not to sign up and think about what what was said for a few days. I even asked people who signed up to ask for their money back until they gave it a little thought. T
> 
> Over 30 times, the main speaker said he owned a motor home and was on a 6-month work sabbatical. I almost jumped up and wanted to create a commotion because he was seriously full of B.S. He lived in Arizona and was working au a serious sweat in Ohio trying to sell his services to plumbers. I would not call this a sabbatical from work.
> 
> Both Nexstar and PSI work very hard to control what everyone thinks during their sales pitch. PSI has several tables set up for lunch. There is one PSI member on each table so they can control the conversation during lunch. PSI does not want people discussing whether or not people see value in the B.S. Everything at PSI and Nexstart is very orchestrated and it is amazing how many people can't see sort B.S. from fact.
> 
> I can't figure this out. The Nexstar meeting was two full days. Some fools signed up within the first two hours. One of them was sitting at my table. Every time someone signed up Nexstar gave them a toy that made a lot of noise. This is another way to work on your emotions. Why would someone make a decision so fast?
> 
> Nexstar also plays another really sick game. They give people numbers at the table and tell people with specific numbers to change tables. This is orchestrated so you split from the person you go with. This way, you cannot speak with your partner about the B.S. They also split up the partners when we visited the plumbing shop. I refused to split up and play their games.


OK.


----------



## service guy

thanks leonard, very useful information here.
And also, I have been following your other advice lately and I am being less judgemental of new callers...I only use the diagnostic charge sparingly now, most times I just go out to their house and give my best presentation and my sales are up nicely!!!:thumbsup: I still weed out some callers, the ones that call every company in phonebook just to check pricing, they are very obvious, _( e.g. "hey, how much do you charge for a water heater, I am checking prices.")_, they get told there is a diagnostic charge as they are looking for the lowballer and are a total waste of time. But MOST serious callers, I no longer use a diagnostic, I just show up and BAM, make the sale! I sold 2 complete showervalves, 3 toilets, a premium garbage disposal, a 75 gal gas water heater and a bunch of other stuff this week!
Last week was even better, a $2000 kitchen & laundry drain repipe, and a $4000 sewer were among them.
Thanks for the sales advice! Money in my bank!:thumbup:


----------



## 22rifle

As long as you don't have to lie to the customer to make the sale.


----------



## pcplumber

*Thank you very much.*



service guy said:


> thanks leonard, very useful information here.
> And also, I have been following your other advice lately and I am being less judgemental of new callers...I only use the diagnostic charge sparingly now, most times I just go out to their house and give my best presentation and my sales are up nicely!!!:thumbsup: I still weed out some callers, the ones that call every company in phonebook just to check pricing, they are very obvious, _( e.g. "hey, how much do you charge for a water heater, I am checking prices.")_, they get told there is a diagnostic charge as they are looking for the lowballer and are a total waste of time. But MOST serious callers, I no longer use a diagnostic, I just show up and BAM, make the sale! I sold 2 complete showervalves, 3 toilets, a premium garbage disposal, a 75 gal gas water heater and a bunch of other stuff this week!
> Last week was even better, a $2000 kitchen & laundry drain repipe, and a $4000 sewer were among them.
> Thanks for the sales advice! Money in my bank!:thumbup:


Thank you very much.


----------



## service guy

22rifle said:


> As long as you don't have to lie to the customer to make the sale.


Huh? I suck at lying, honesty is way easier, and honesty sells!:thumbsup: This is plumbing, stuff sells itself. Plumbing sales is super easy, all you have to do is make suggestions. Old leaky drains, pipes, valves, 50 year old toilets. It isn't hard to convince people to upgrade.
e.g. "well ma'am, I could fix this toilet but its from 1955 and flushes about 5 gallons every time. I could put a new one in that flushes only 1.6 gallons, 5 year warranty and it will no longer run and flush bad, it only costs $xxx, so what do you want to do?"
~Bam, sold!:thumbup:


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## 22rifle

service guy said:


> Huh? I suck at lying, honesty is way easier, and honesty sells!:thumbsup: This is plumbing, stuff sells itself. Plumbing sales is super easy, all you have to do is make suggestions. Old leaky drains, pipes, valves, 50 year old toilets. It isn't hard to convince people to upgrade.
> e.g. "well ma'am, I could fix this toilet but its from 1955 and flushes about 5 gallons every time. I could put a new one in that flushes only 1.6 gallons, 5 year warranty and it will no longer run and flush bad, it only costs $xxx, so what do you want to do?"
> ~Bam, sold!:thumbup:


I wasn't implying you might be lying to the customer. Sorry I came across that way. 

Some people brag about it though. Be careful. That's all I am saying.


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## Plumber

22rifle said:


> I wasn't implying you might be lying to the customer. Sorry I came across that way.
> 
> Some people brag about it though. Be careful. That's all I am saying.


This reminds me of the handyman I had to work with today. He swore he was a plumber, but he's been doing maintenance for a stone-cold trailer park for 15 years while living in a 5th wheel.

Great fun :no:


----------



## smellslike$tome

"Both Nexstar and PSI work very hard to control what everyone thinks during their sales pitch. PSI has several tables set up for lunch. There is one PSI member on each table so they can control the conversation during lunch. PSI does not want people discussing whether or not people see value in the B.S. Everything at PSI and Nexstart is very orchestrated and it is amazing how many people can't see sort B.S. from fact."

This is not the truth.

I do not know anything much about Nexstar but PSI is a business. They make money from plumbing companies. You've got to realize this going in. They are not a charitable organization. If you join and decide it's not for you then you can leave at any time. If you know enough about business to make a decent profit then don't bother unless you think they can help you do better. If you are like I was and understand that you don't know squat about business, then you might benefit. I have. PSI will lead you to do things that will intertwine your company with their systems. This will, if you follow it to the letter, make it difficult (not impossible) to seperate from them. Isn't this what we all want to do with our customers. I want to give my customers every reason to only consider calling me when they have any plumbing issue. Isn't this just good business? I am very skeptical by nature and did not sign up as a snap decision. I went to my first "summit" with my finger on the trigger just waiting for someone to twitch. Instead I left that first week's meeting with a mountain of material certain that they were supplying me with tools to help "right my ship". My history since that time has borne this out. Some of the material I received was worthless. Some of it was priceless. Being skeptical as I am I always forsee the possiblilty that I may decide to bail one day. Because of this possibility I have chosen not to use many of the things they offer or else have adapted them in such a way that I won't face a mountain of work should I choose to leave them behind one day. In the meantime, it is my judgement that what I am recieving from them is at least worth what I am paying them (I can document this in actual dollars), so in reality, they are costing me nothing.

Everybody's got to do what they think is best. It's just amusing to me that anyone standing on the outside would presume to announce that it's a rip off with out even having all of the facts.


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## Plumber

What I'm hearing from Smellsalot is PSI is a business college for plumbers. And business college is expensive.

I can testify that you can lose a fortune or two trying to get this plumbing business right, so that could justify the cost. I don't know.

In my tiny part of the world, it would never pay, but a city business maybe.


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## pcplumber

smellslike$tome said:


> "Both Nexstar and PSI work very hard to control what everyone thinks during their sales pitch. PSI has several tables set up for lunch. There is one PSI member on each table so they can control the conversation during lunch. PSI does not want people discussing whether or not people see value in the B.S. Everything at PSI and Nexstart is very orchestrated and it is amazing how many people can't see sort B.S. from fact."
> 
> This is not the truth.
> 
> I do not know anything much about Nexstar but PSI is a business. They make money from plumbing companies. You've got to realize this going in. They are not a charitable organization. If you join and decide it's not for you then you can leave at any time. If you know enough about business to make a decent profit then don't bother unless you think they can help you do better. If you are like I was and understand that you don't know squat about business, then you might benefit. I have. PSI will lead you to do things that will intertwine your company with their systems. This will, if you follow it to the letter, make it difficult (not impossible) to seperate from them. Isn't this what we all want to do with our customers. I want to give my customers every reason to only consider calling me when they have any plumbing issue. Isn't this just good business? I am very skeptical by nature and did not sign up as a snap decision. I went to my first "summit" with my finger on the trigger just waiting for someone to twitch. Instead I left that first week's meeting with a mountain of material certain that they were supplying me with tools to help "right my ship". My history since that time has born this out. Some of the material I received was worthless. Some of it was priceless. Being skeptical as I am I always forsee the possiblilty that I may decide to bail one day. Because of this possibility I have chosen not to use many of the things they offer or else have adapted them in such a way that I won't face a mountain of work should I choose to leave them behind one day. In the meantime, it is my judgement that what I am recieving from them is at least worth what I am paying them (I can document this in actual dollars), so in reality, they are costing me nothing.
> 
> Everybody's got to do what they think is best. It's just amusing to me that anyone standing on the outside would presume to announce that it's a rip off with out even having all of the facts.


You can't quit at any time. When I was at the meeting I think they wanted $24,000 to join. Yes, they even take credit cards. But, there is a time period for your money back and I would not want to take the chance. I just got a letter from PSI last week and I'll bet they offer the same discount they offered four years ago, so why do people sign up without thinking for a few days. I'll post the letter if I can find it in my junk pile.

I went to three PSI meetings in Las Vegas, Ontario California, and Texas because I was impressed with their presentation, impressed with their B.S., and I always learn something. I even got to sit with Mike Diamond at the lunch table and we had a little chat.

The entire presentation is orchestrated like a play. The presentation starts with a video of a house that looks like it is worth about $15 million and reminds me of the house in Gone With The Wind. It has about two acres of manicured gardens. The CEO (I think) of PSI is standing on the balcony drinking wine with his wife and they are looking over the gardens. You are supposed to think that if you join PSI you can be rich like them and this is done in almost every type of seminar sales presentation. The first thing these people want you to 'think' is they are successful people. Otherwise, why would they show you their $15 million house (if the house is even their house).

It is strange how the plumber who looks like Elmer Fudd, who owns two companies, and wears a baseball cap crooked to make himself look even dumber, made the exact same statements at all three meetings. He said he had 42 fishing trips planned for the year. This statement was made at three different meetings during three different years. At all three meetings he said his companies are on running on automatic, without him, and the only thing he does is go to his shops on Fridays to take his 'bags' of money to the bank. This was not meant as a joke.

The entire presentation is hype and B.S. They rattle number after number without taking a breath. They play on your emotions by telling you this sob story:

"I was 24 years old when my father died. Mom and I started going through his papers and we realized that my dad was broke after working for 50 years. My mom didn't have any income and all my dad got from his 50 years of work was a broken back. Well, I had to do something to help mom, so I decided I would take over pop's business. What a mess it was! Bill collectors were calling. I did not know how to run the business, and I wasn't going to make it. Then, I got a letter from PSI. I went to one of their meetings and I've been on the fast track to succes ever since. Now, I have 42 fishing trips planned this year, I did $787,349.23 in business last year, and this year I am on track to do more than $1.5 million, and the best part is; thanks to PSI's Systems and Procedures, all I have to do is go to my shop on Fridays and take the bags of money to the bank.

This was not exact, but it is exactly what they talk about for the entire day.

Neither Nexstar nor PSI qualify their candidates. They do not care about your age. They do not ask what you want. They do not ask for your experience background, education, etc. They only give you manuals, video tapes and want you to think you will be able to walk on water. One plumber who joined Nexstar had no employees and he was about 70+ years old. If you look up Nexstar you will see he is on their member's list and his shop is in Pasadena.

Another reason I go to PSI's sales presentations is because you can still get some ideas and food for thought, but I heard that many of PSI's members are not successful and many of their Benjamin Franklin companies are going bust.

I'm just in a bad mood today and I don't know why, so don't take this as an argument. I think Mike Diamond and the people who run PSI are geniuses.

There are many contractors who don't want a Super Shop. Their net profit is very low. I think they mentioned about 10%. If you use their Systems and Procedures you will need dispatchers, secretaries, book keepers, a parts men, and a general manager. As your business grows it also decreases with the heavy load you have to carry.

Maybe you were more suited to get involved, but most people who sign up are not qualified and it really makes me sad to see people throw away the money they already earned to realize they would have been better off buying a few books, or just asking a contractor who would help for free. You don't have to pay $50,000 to learn a few tricks.


----------



## 22rifle

pcplumber said:


> You can't quit at any time. When I was at the meeting I think they wanted $24,000 to join. Yes, they even take credit cards. But, there is a time period for your money back and I would not want to take the chance. I just got a letter from PSI last week and I'll bet they offer the same discount they offered four years ago, so why do people sign up without thinking for a few days. I'll post the letter if I can find it in my junk pile.
> 
> I went to three PSI meetings in Las Vegas, Ontario California, and Texas because I was impressed with their presentation, impressed with their B.S., and I always learn something. I even got to sit with Mike Diamond at the lunch table and we had a little chat.
> 
> The entire presentation is orchestrated like a play. The presentation starts with a video of a house that looks like it is worth about $15 million and reminds me of the house in Gone With The Wind. It has about two acres of manicured gardens. The CEO (I think) of PSI is standing on the balcony drinking wine with his wife and they are looking over the gardens. You are supposed to think that if you join PSI you can be rich like them and this is done in almost every type of seminar sales presentation. The first thing these people want you to 'think' is they are successful people. Otherwise, why would they show you their $15 million house (if the house is even their house).
> 
> It is strange how the plumber who looks like Elmer Fudd, who owns two companies, and wears a baseball cap crooked to make himself look even dumber, made the exact same statements at all three meetings. He said he had 42 fishing trips planned for the year. This statement was made at three different meetings during three different years. At all three meetings he said his companies are on running on automatic, without him, and the only thing he does is go to his shops on Fridays to take his 'bags' of money to the bank. This was not meant as a joke.
> 
> The entire presentation is hype and B.S. They rattle number after number without taking a breath. They play on your emotions by telling you this sob story:
> 
> "I was 24 years old when my father died. Mom and I started going through his papers and we realized that my dad was broke after working for 50 years. My mom didn't have any income and all my dad got from his 50 years of work was a broken back. Well, I had to do something to help mom, so I decided I would take over pop's business. What a mess it was! Bill collectors were calling. I did not know how to run the business, and I wasn't going to make it. Then, I got a letter from PSI. I went to one of their meetings and I've been on the fast track to succes ever since. Now, I have 42 fishing trips planned this year, I did $787,349.23 in business last year, and this year I am on track to do more than $1.5 million, and the best part is; thanks to PSI's Systems and Procedures, all I have to do is go to my shop on Fridays and take the bags of money to the bank.
> 
> This was not exact, but it is exactly what they talk about for the entire day.
> 
> Neither Nexstar nor PSI qualify their candidates. They do not care about your age. They do not ask what you want. They do not ask for your experience background, education, etc. They only give you manuals, video tapes and want you to think you will be able to walk on water. One plumber who joined Nexstar had no employees and he was about 70+ years old. If you look up Nexstar you will see he is on their member's list and his shop is in Pasadena.
> 
> Another reason I go to PSI's sales presentations is because you can still get some ideas and food for thought, but I heard that many of PSI's members are not successful and many of their Benjamin Franklin companies are going bust.
> 
> I'm just in a bad mood today and I don't know why, so don't take this as an argument. I think Mike Diamond and the people who run PSI are geniuses.
> 
> There are many contractors who don't want a Super Shop. Their net profit is very low. I think they mentioned about 10%. If you use their Systems and Procedures you will need dispatchers, secretaries, book keepers, a parts men, and a general manager. As your business grows it also decreases with the heavy load you have to carry.
> 
> Maybe you were more suited to get involved, but most people who sign up are not qualified and it really makes me sad to see people throw away the money they already earned to realize they would have been better off buying a few books, or just asking a contractor who would help for free. You don't have to pay $50,000 to learn a few tricks.


it isn't for everyone for sure.


----------



## smellslike$tome

pcplumber said:


> You can't quit at any time. When I was at the meeting I think they wanted $24,000 to join. Yes, they even take credit cards. But, there is a time period for your money back and I would not want to take the chance. I just got a letter from PSI last week and I'll bet they offer the same discount they offered four years ago, so why do people sign up without thinking for a few days. I'll post the letter if I can find it in my junk pile.
> 
> I went to three PSI meetings in Las Vegas, Ontario California, and Texas because I was impressed with their presentation, impressed with their B.S., and I always learn something. I even got to sit with Mike Diamond at the lunch table and we had a little chat.
> 
> The entire presentation is orchestrated like a play. The presentation starts with a video of a house that looks like it is worth about $15 million and reminds me of the house in Gone With The Wind. It has about two acres of manicured gardens. The CEO (I think) of PSI is standing on the balcony drinking wine with his wife and they are looking over the gardens. You are supposed to think that if you join PSI you can be rich like them and this is done in almost every type of seminar sales presentation. The first thing these people want you to 'think' is they are successful people. Otherwise, why would they show you their $15 million house (if the house is even their house).
> 
> It is strange how the plumber who looks like Elmer Fudd, who owns two companies, and wears a baseball cap crooked to make himself look even dumber, made the exact same statements at all three meetings. He said he had 42 fishing trips planned for the year. This statement was made at three different meetings during three different years. At all three meetings he said his companies are on running on automatic, without him, and the only thing he does is go to his shops on Fridays to take his 'bags' of money to the bank. This was not meant as a joke.
> 
> The entire presentation is hype and B.S. They rattle number after number without taking a breath. They play on your emotions by telling you this sob story:
> 
> "I was 24 years old when my father died. Mom and I started going through his papers and we realized that my dad was broke after working for 50 years. My mom didn't have any income and all my dad got from his 50 years of work was a broken back. Well, I had to do something to help mom, so I decided I would take over pop's business. What a mess it was! Bill collectors were calling. I did not know how to run the business, and I wasn't going to make it. Then, I got a letter from PSI. I went to one of their meetings and I've been on the fast track to succes ever since. Now, I have 42 fishing trips planned this year, I did $787,349.23 in business last year, and this year I am on track to do more than $1.5 million, and the best part is; thanks to PSI's Systems and Procedures, all I have to do is go to my shop on Fridays and take the bags of money to the bank.
> 
> This was not exact, but it is exactly what they talk about for the entire day.
> 
> Neither Nexstar nor PSI qualify their candidates. They do not care about your age. They do not ask what you want. They do not ask for your experience background, education, etc. They only give you manuals, video tapes and want you to think you will be able to walk on water. One plumber who joined Nexstar had no employees and he was about 70+ years old. If you look up Nexstar you will see he is on their member's list and his shop is in Pasadena.
> 
> Another reason I go to PSI's sales presentations is because you can still get some ideas and food for thought, but I heard that many of PSI's members are not successful and many of their Benjamin Franklin companies are going bust.
> 
> I'm just in a bad mood today and I don't know why, so don't take this as an argument. I think Mike Diamond and the people who run PSI are geniuses.
> 
> There are many contractors who don't want a Super Shop. Their net profit is very low. I think they mentioned about 10%. If you use their Systems and Procedures you will need dispatchers, secretaries, book keepers, a parts men, and a general manager. As your business grows it also decreases with the heavy load you have to carry.
> 
> Maybe you were more suited to get involved, but most people who sign up are not qualified and it really makes me sad to see people throw away the money they already earned to realize they would have been better off buying a few books, or just asking a contractor who would help for free. You don't have to pay $50,000 to learn a few tricks.


I don't know you but it really seems you have an axe to grind and yet you've seen fit to go scavange crumbs from PSI "sales pitches" not once but three times. Maybe I am wrong about this.

As for needing help if you grow, ... well yes that would seem to be the logical outcome of growth. I have been a one man shop since I started in business. My wife started answering my phones in April of 2007 because I couldn't get off the phone long enough to get any work done. I came to plumbing later in life than most. I have a lot of ground to make up to provide for the upcoming needs of my family i.e. 2 college educations, etc. and to be able to enjoy a decent retirement and not have to still be grinding my knees away when I'm 70 (unless I choose to). For me growth is not an option. I am currently interviewing plumbers. I will be patient because I want the right person. It is difficult. I have been through about 8 or so interviews and all but one of the applicants has had either some kind of drug and/or criminal history. The point is that if you are happy being a one man band with no office staff then that is perfectly fine, you don't need psi. If you are a one man band and have determined that you don't know what you're doing on the business end or see the need or just have the desire to grow and aren't really sure how to get there, they can probably help you. If you are a large company with no or low profits and can't figure out why, they can probably help you. I just interviewed a kid from a local t&m shop that runs 28 trucks most of which are hvac trucks but at least 4 of them were plumbing trucks. He tells me basically what I already knew, that they charge $79 per hour with a $25 truck charge on the first hour. What he told me that I did not know is that for this 28 truck company they have 32 office personel! 32, how is this even possible. I'm not trying to convince anyone. I really don't care how someone else does it. I'm doing what works for me and my company. I'm not looking to be king of the plumbing world but this is what PSI helped me do, in 2005 having been in business for 2 full years I believe I had 2 months out of the year where my revenue for the month was in excess of 10k. I joined psi in September of 2005. In December of 2006 my monthly revenue broke 20k for the first time. The last time my monthly revenue did not exceed 20k per month was May of 2008. I've come close to breaking 30k per month a couple of times and expect this will happen for the first time this year. In 3 years since joining psi my annual revenue has tripled over what it was for 2005. 2008 was our best year to date. January 2009 was our best January ever. February, which historically is one of my worst months, started off a little flat but is ending up very strong and is very probably going to be our best February ever. I don't know anything about any economic downturn. Make no mistake, I am not bragging, on the contrary I am very grateful. My God has chosen to bless me, my family, and my business. He did not need psi to do this but it is clear to me (in all the finer details of my experience) that He has chosen to use them to effect His will for my life. In no way do I consider psi to be anything other than strictly secular organization but the Creator of it all can pick up any old stone in the field and do with it as He wills. I don't know what happens tomorrow. Today it is working out pretty well and psi played a significant part in it. You can say whatever you like about psi but you really can't argue with my experience. Again, I am not their cheerleader. There is plenty that I really don't like about the organization. The day may come when I walk away but it won't be today.


----------



## 22rifle

territory spat.


----------



## pcplumber

smellslike$tome said:


> I don't know you but it really seems you have an axe to grind and yet you've seen fit to go scavange crumbs from PSI "sales pitches" not once but three times. Maybe I am wrong about this.
> 
> As for needing help if you grow, ... well yes that would seem to be the logical outcome of growth. I have been a one man shop since I started in business. My wife started answering my phones in April of 2007 because I couldn't get off the phone long enough to get any work done. I came to plumbing later in life than most. I have a lot of ground to make up to provide for the upcoming needs of my family i.e. 2 college educations, etc. and to be able to enjoy a decent retirement and not have to still be grinding my knees away when I'm 70 (unless I choose to). For me growth is not an option. I am currently interviewing plumbers. I will be patient because I want the right person. It is difficult. I have been through about 8 or so interviews and all but one of the applicants has had either some kind of drug and/or criminal history. The point is that if you are happy being a one man band with no office staff then that is perfectly fine, you don't need psi. If you are a one man band and have determined that you don't know what you're doing on the business end or see the need or just have the desire to grow and aren't really sure how to get there, they can probably help you. If you are a large company with no or low profits and can't figure out why, they can probably help you. I just interviewed a kid from a local t&m shop that runs 28 trucks most of which are hvac trucks but at least 4 of them were plumbing trucks. He tells me basically what I already knew, that they charge $79 per hour with a $25 truck charge on the first hour. What he told me that I did not know is that for this 28 truck company they have 32 office personel! 32, how is this even possible. I'm not trying to convince anyone. I really don't care how someone else does it. I'm doing what works for me and my company. I'm not looking to be king of the plumbing world but this is what PSI helped me do, in 2005 having been in business for 2 full years I believe I had 2 months out of the year where my revenue for the month was in excess of 10k. I joined psi in September of 2005. In December of 2006 my monthly revenue broke 20k for the first time. The last time my monthly revenue did not exceed 20k per month was May of 2008. I've come close to breaking 30k per month a couple of times and expect this will happen for the first time this year. In 3 years since joining psi my annual revenue has tripled over what it was for 2005. 2008 was our best year to date. January 2009 was our best January ever. February, which historically is one of my worst months, started off a little flat but is ending up very strong and is very probably going to be our best February ever. I don't know anything about any economic downturn. Make no mistake, I am not bragging, on the contrary I am very grateful. My God has chosen to bless me, my family, and my business. He did not need psi to do this but it is clear to me (in all the finer details of my experience) that He has chosen to use them to effect His will for my life. In no way do I consider psi to be anything other than strictly secular organization but the Creator of it all can pick up any old stone in the field and do with it as He wills. I don't know what happens tomorrow. Today it is working out pretty well and psi played a significant part in it. You can say whatever you like about psi but you really can't argue with my experience. Again, I am not their cheerleader. There is plenty that I really don't like about the organization. The day may come when I walk away but it won't be today.


If you pay $50,000 to learn one thing that makes you a million dollars over a lifetime it is a good investment. As each person sits through one of these sales presentations we each see something different that has a really great appeal. I did not like the information at many sales presentations and wanted to join just for one piece of information. 

Please don't misunderstand my statements as an insult or an argument. I always write to the entire group. If you ask me, as a friend, I would tell everyone not to fall into the trap where you listen to PSI, Nexstar, and let your emotions guide you. I am positive Nexstar and PSI have done a lot of great things for contractors and maybe no other person or company was readily available to help, but there are very many people (maybe not you) who do not read between the lines, do not see what is B.S., cannot tell the truth from absolute fiction, and do not have the business maturity to make a large financial equipment, of this type, with less than a few hours of thought. 

I agree with your choice to join and at least you are doing something to improve your business and lifestyle.


----------



## Plumber

Thanks to you pc and smellsrealbad for a great thread.

Businesses and even governments spend billions on outside consultants to advise and guide on matters they don't have a clue about, so why shouldn't plumbers?

I got a feeling if pc weren't so darn cheap, he'd join. After all, 3 times in 3 different cities? C'mon man, you know you want to...:laughing:

If I were in a city, I would probably join. Every day I wish I had someone to talk to about something business related, but either I'm more experienced or they aren't up here in the woods. Or they are hustlers ala *******.


----------



## Wiser

Plumber said:


> Every day I wish I had someone to talk to about something business related, but either I'm more experienced or they aren't up here in the woods. Or they are hustlers ala *******.


That is why a lot of us like PZ. We can share experiences, debate (somestimes forever), show each other respect, and still walk away a little smarter. :thumbup:


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## Protech

$20,000 to get started then $900 a month. I'm just guessing I really have no idea:whistling2:



Plumber said:


> What is the monthly dues?


----------



## Plumber

Plumbcrazy said:


> That is why a lot of us like PZ. We can share experiences, debate (somestimes forever), show each other respect, and still walk away a little smarter. :thumbup:


You can't beat the price, either. I read somewhere that Nathan may have this as a pay site and make million a year in dues off us. :laughing:



Protech said:


> $20,000 to get started then $900 a month. I'm just guessing I really have no idea:whistling2:


huh. I wonder if they prorate it for population. _ing Mike Diamond has a 15 million customer base and I've got 160 (thousand, including children and mother-in-laws).

That would make my buy-in $1,600.00 and $9.60 a month....that's about right.


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## joenewyork17

I have read through these posts with an open mind. One that stands out the most was on the last page that said something like plumbing today is an easy sale, tell them old pipes, leaky faucets, new technology bowls, etc.
Well, why than do we as good sale people and good plumbers need PSI or Nexstar?
One piece of advice that I will guarantee it to be priceless.........
The difference between a good, surviving, busy plumbing company to one that is slow, goes through employee's every other week, run down trucks, bad credit, is learn to be a good businessman as well as doing your due diligence to your customers, community, trade groups, employee's and of course your self and your family.
You'll end up dead at 50-55, maybe divorced or have a cheating wife because your never home, troubled teenagers, but you will be successful. Fine line between a good businessman and a good father/parent/husband.
I know I'm a bit off the topic, but, that is how these groups get you to sign up, showing you what we already know and have as plumbers. 
No way does any company; plumbing, accounting, doctor, need to outsource their decisions. Let them Pay ME half of what my company is worth, then when WE show a profit after working together day and night, blood, sweat and tears, I'll gladly pay you weekly for what you have done for me.


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## stillaround

I have been a PSI member for 5+ years and recently decided to quit. There is a procedure for quitting and so far it's painless. Part of the contract stipulates no public statements about confidential items so I'll refrain from that. Some plumbers after joining turned their businesses around dramaticly. It helped get me out of a rut and was well worth the pricing for that alone. While readjusting during the present climate I decided to cut all unneccesary expenses. If my revenue was a little higher right now I'd stay a member. I dont charge the way some have or certainly not the way some have characterized -although there are abuses everywhere and the plumbing industry is right up there near the top with real and perceived abuses. 
5 years ago there was electricity in the air at the summits and you could rub shoulders with some high powered/performing business owners. The people who own and conceived psi are the best and brightest in the industry and the speeches were often riveting. But that said, my most memorable quotes are from other plumbers. One in particular still rings in my ear," ya gotta know your numbas" (in a Rhode Island accent). I charged less according to my area and always reserved the right as an owner to give away or help someone in need. No sour grapes here just a decision based on my personal impression of value for the buck.


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## Green Country

What is the incentive to stay in? What do they provide every month that is worth $900, or whatever the cost is?


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## user823

Green Country said:


> What is the incentive to stay in? What do they provide every month that is worth $900, or whatever the cost is?


I wouldn't give them 10 dollars a month. There is nothing they can tell me I don't already know or can find out on my own. I don't pay anyone to tell me how to run my business, period.:no:


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## stillaround

Green Country said:


> What is the incentive to stay in? What do they provide every month that is worth $900, or whatever the cost is?


Obviously no further incentive for me. Earlier: planning, business training, marketing training, image training, aquisitions, employee relationship training, sales training, time management training, pricing systems, group buying, motivation, personal help from representatives. Training out the you know what. They have a step by step system by Jim Abrams which is very well thought out by someone who turned a small St. Louis hvac firm into service experts -largest service company $275mil plus. He is a big dog and I could listen to him for hours. Some people know it all and it would certainly be no use to them especially since they dont know what it is about.
Unfortunately, some of the above criticisms are right on. The extra training cost extra and there is question in my mind of its value. Also, there are demographic differences which are not given credence. Big cities can support the pricing. But , if you cant get $450-$500 an average ticket you just have to do more calls a day-dont need to spend a lot to figure that out. And much of the info can be researched and found on ones own. Common sense business practices. Its all put together in a nice package. But the real genuine desire to help each plumber on has faded into what I think is a growing shift to web based training. Also some of the relationships formed with people like Gem plumb/heating out of Rhode Island ($30+ million annual) and a few others left me missing something. I want Minnesota to know that a guy named Goodrich was hvac and looking for a new territory and had only plumbing available and still in two years did 3 million plus gross in 2 cities added to his 7 million hvac and wrote himself big checks. He was also named Las Vegas businessman of the year. He was smart. And mixing and listening to these can help. He told me 5 years ago that he never saw anyone do greatly trying to keep new construction and service, that the mind sets were different. I didnt want to listen at that time having 2 sons who didnt want to do service but in retrospect he was right. Its hard to find out some of this on your own.
All in all I left but Im better for it. So-who cares.


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## Wiser

Well written post above! It is rare to find a plumber who can come up from the ranks and possess all the skills listed above to run a business.

Many excellent plumbers have set out on their own to open shops and fold within a few years because they lack what PSI has been selling.

A lot of it is common sense and gut, but some of it has to be learned. A plumber opening up a business is so busy looking for work, he rarely has time to pursue learning about other parts of the business. Most of what I know comes from experience and cannot be taught in the class room. How do you teach 'gut instinct?'


----------



## para1

*******************:no:******************











*"someday this war's gonna end"*


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

para1 said:


> *******************:no:******************
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"someday this war's gonna end"*


 
If I was to guess,


A younger Robert Duvall....right? 

That man is one hell of a actor, enjoyed his work over the years. For me though he's been old since I known him on the big screen.


----------



## Associated Plum

Plumber said:


> PSI is Mike Diamond's baby. Mike has done more for our industry than any man has ever done. His shops are the ultimate in absolutely everything. His pricing methods are beyond compare...literally. I read his column first thing every month.
> 
> He's got a skin so thick that I doubt anything bothers him. Him being a Jewish gay with parents as business partners would toughen anyone up. :laughing:
> 
> That business model may work if you are in a huge city, but no way in a small town/county. We have a Roto-Rooter and that's it for franchises because the area isn't exactly SoCal.
> 
> I'm not spending on anything except my current ads. The phones aren't ringing because people aren't buying---me included.


Actually it is a Jim Abrams/John Young of CSG and Service Experts fame latest venture with Mr. Diamond along for teh ride.


----------



## Mega Smash

Oh wow.

I just spent the last 15-20mins reading everything on the last 9 pages.

Just.... wow.

I work for a Nexstar company and was sent on one of their "Service Seminars" in Florida last year. 

And the comments made about PSI seem to strike home with Nextar as well. Actually, during the seminar, PSI was brought up, and quickly shot down and ridiculed.

Just as smell$ mentioned, it's a tool. And how you (or anyone else for that matter) uses it, is up to you. I learned some great points with regards to customer service, price justification, cost of running a company, first impressions, etc.

But with everything, "upselling" is different than "extorting" - I guess how you use the principles and methods is up to you.

In my opinion, the worst part about my situation is that I spent 9000hrs of training, wrote the qualification test, and have the wallet card that says i'm a Licensed Plumber - but the company says that i'm "not yet a licensed technician" and my paystub says "Plumbing Technician" - both verbally and numerically. It feels like i'm supposed to be a salesman before a plumber.


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## ckoch407

tmartin said:


> What I'm curious about is what happens to these companies during a recession. How many Nordstroms shoppers are now at Walmart because of the economy? And where we are the average income is in the 20-30,000/yr bracket (and just to keep the analogy going...the nearest Nordstroms is 2 hours away - there are two Walmarts in 10 miles). Its funny that you mention MD not caring about the people who can't afford his service. This was one of the points that was brought up at Summit, and my business partner and I argued about. He was totally on board with that philosophy. I, however, think that at this time we can't afford to care only about the people who can afford "Nordstroms" pricing. There just aren't enough of them out there. Especially for those of us in small towns. Bottom Line...as Plumbcrazy brought up in the beginning...will this kind of business plan work in "small town America" or just in the big cities? I was not able to make it to summit, but my partner was. I would have loved to have posed that question to PSI.


So its been aover a year since your OP. How is it working out for you?


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## Mega Smash

pcplumber said:


> Nexstar also plays another really sick game. They give people numbers at the table and tell people with specific numbers to change tables. This is orchestrated so you split from the person you go with. This way, you cannot speak with your partner about the B.S. They also split up the partners when we visited the plumbing shop. I refused to split up and play their games.


I'm pretty sure that the primary reason behind constantly changing tables/partners/groups is so that you get to know everyone in the group - instead of just hanging out with the 2-3 others that you came with.


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## BooBerry

This has been an interesting thread. I think everyone gets out of their business what they put into it but since joining PSI, it literally turned my business around. We're profitable, we have happy clients and we have made our business grow in leaps and bounds. I think, after having read this entire thread, that what PSI offers is a philosophical shift that is hard for companies to get their heads around. Here is what I know:

Upon joining PSI, you're going to lose guys because they might not embrace the philosophy at all. This isn't a bad thing - if you can't change your people, you should change your people. Period. 

You need to train train train train train train train!!!! The only time we ever get complaints about our prices is when a technician hasn't done a proper visit to a client's home and when he didn't build the relationship. What you need to understand is that plumbers all think the number one thing that matters to clients is money or price and I'm telling you that isn't the case. In maybe 10% of the cases, there are people who will complain about the price, but want to know something? We don't want them as customers because these people think EVERYTHING is too expensive. What we do know is that if you build value in someone's home and offer solutions, you have every right to be the most expensive guy on the block. What matters most to customers isn't price, it's TIME! That's why we give them the total price before we do the work-that way if they don't like it, we leave and let them call someone else. In the three years since we've done this, clients have said no to our pricing on ten occasions - every other time, they're just happy with the relationship and the confidence in knowing that they don't have to pay a cent until they are 100% satisfied with the work we do.

See, I think a lot of the resistance to PSI has to do with people looking for the magic wand to solve all their problems. There isn't one. It took a huge investment of time and money to implement PSI in my company, but it works and we're not even 1/2 the way through implementing all their programs. 

We promote club memberships and guess what? Those club memberships take a plumbing client off the market for our competition. They also keep us busy doing plumbing tuneups during slow periods.

Also, I read on here the argument that PSI won't work in certain areas - that's untrue, actually. PSI understands human nature and they know that in the vast majority of the cases, the public perception of plumbers is that we are crooked dirty buttcrack dudes who don't honor our work. PSI raises the bar to the point where plumbers who smell good, are clean shaven and arrive in impeccable uniforms show up at a client's doorstep and HUGELY contrast 99.9% of the non-PSI competition out there. It is for this reason alone that people are so impressed by PSI contractors because for years they have been screwed over by contractors. Once upon a time Lawyers used to be the most hated profession - now it's contractors and at the head of the pack it's plumbers.

PSI isn't for everyone, I will admit that. But what I will say is that it was the smartest money I've spent in my life. It was (is) a daily challenge to implement their programs, but they work and we are ten times as profitable as we were when I started out. We have fewer callbacks. I have happier employees and most importantly LOYAL customers who REFER my company to friends, family and coworkers.


----------



## Protech

:notworthy:



BooBerry said:


> This has been an interesting thread. I think everyone gets out of their business what they put into it but since joining PSI, it literally turned my business around. We're profitable, we have happy clients and we have made our business grow in leaps and bounds. I think, after having read this entire thread, that what PSI offers is a philosophical shift that is hard for companies to get their heads around. Here is what I know:
> 
> Upon joining PSI, you're going to lose guys because they might not embrace the philosophy at all. This isn't a bad thing - if you can't change your people, you should change your people. Period.
> 
> You need to train train train train train train train!!!! The only time we ever get complaints about our prices is when a technician hasn't done a proper visit to a client's home and when he didn't build the relationship. What you need to understand is that plumbers all think the number one thing that matters to clients is money or price and I'm telling you that isn't the case. In maybe 10% of the cases, there are people who will complain about the price, but want to know something? We don't want them as customers because these people think EVERYTHING is too expensive. What we do know is that if you build value in someone's home and offer solutions, you have every right to be the most expensive guy on the block. What matters most to customers isn't price, it's TIME! That's why we give them the total price before we do the work-that way if they don't like it, we leave and let them call someone else. In the three years since we've done this, clients have said no to our pricing on ten occasions - every other time, they're just happy with the relationship and the confidence in knowing that they don't have to pay a cent until they are 100% satisfied with the work we do.
> 
> See, I think a lot of the resistance to PSI has to do with people looking for the magic wand to solve all their problems. There isn't one. It took a huge investment of time and money to implement PSI in my company, but it works and we're not even 1/2 the way through implementing all their programs.
> 
> We promote club memberships and guess what? Those club memberships take a plumbing client off the market for our competition. They also keep us busy doing plumbing tuneups during slow periods.
> 
> Also, I read on here the argument that PSI won't work in certain areas - that's untrue, actually. PSI understands human nature and they know that in the vast majority of the cases, the public perception of plumbers is that we are crooked dirty buttcrack dudes who don't honor our work. PSI raises the bar to the point where plumbers who smell good, are clean shaven and arrive in impeccable uniforms show up at a client's doorstep and HUGELY contrast 99.9% of the non-PSI competition out there. It is for this reason alone that people are so impressed by PSI contractors because for years they have been screwed over by contractors. Once upon a time Lawyers used to be the most hated profession - now it's contractors and at the head of the pack it's plumbers.
> 
> PSI isn't for everyone, I will admit that. But what I will say is that it was the smartest money I've spent in my life. It was (is) a daily challenge to implement their programs, but they work and we are ten times as profitable as we were when I started out. We have fewer callbacks. I have happier employees and most importantly LOYAL customers who REFER my company to friends, family and coworkers.


----------



## njoy plumbing

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Damn and I thought I was disturbing!


 Just a close 2nd Dunbar:whistling2:


----------



## ChrisConnor

BooBerry said:


> This has been an interesting thread. I think everyone gets out of their business what they put into it but since joining PSI, it literally turned my business around. We're profitable, we have happy clients and we have made our business grow in leaps and bounds. I think, after having read this entire thread, that what PSI offers is a philosophical shift that is hard for companies to get their heads around. Here is what I know:
> 
> Upon joining PSI, you're going to lose guys because they might not embrace the philosophy at all. This isn't a bad thing - if you can't change your people, you should change your people. Period.
> 
> You need to train train train train train train train!!!! The only time we ever get complaints about our prices is when a technician hasn't done a proper visit to a client's home and when he didn't build the relationship. What you need to understand is that plumbers all think the number one thing that matters to clients is money or price and I'm telling you that isn't the case. In maybe 10% of the cases, there are people who will complain about the price, but want to know something? We don't want them as customers because these people think EVERYTHING is too expensive. What we do know is that if you build value in someone's home and offer solutions, you have every right to be the most expensive guy on the block. What matters most to customers isn't price, it's TIME! That's why we give them the total price before we do the work-that way if they don't like it, we leave and let them call someone else. In the three years since we've done this, clients have said no to our pricing on ten occasions - every other time, they're just happy with the relationship and the confidence in knowing that they don't have to pay a cent until they are 100% satisfied with the work we do.
> 
> See, I think a lot of the resistance to PSI has to do with people looking for the magic wand to solve all their problems. There isn't one. It took a huge investment of time and money to implement PSI in my company, but it works and we're not even 1/2 the way through implementing all their programs.
> 
> We promote club memberships and guess what? Those club memberships take a plumbing client off the market for our competition. They also keep us busy doing plumbing tuneups during slow periods.
> 
> Also, I read on here the argument that PSI won't work in certain areas - that's untrue, actually. PSI understands human nature and they know that in the vast majority of the cases, the public perception of plumbers is that we are crooked dirty buttcrack dudes who don't honor our work. PSI raises the bar to the point where plumbers who smell good, are clean shaven and arrive in impeccable uniforms show up at a client's doorstep and HUGELY contrast 99.9% of the non-PSI competition out there. It is for this reason alone that people are so impressed by PSI contractors because for years they have been screwed over by contractors. Once upon a time Lawyers used to be the most hated profession - now it's contractors and at the head of the pack it's plumbers.
> 
> PSI isn't for everyone, I will admit that. But what I will say is that it was the smartest money I've spent in my life. It was (is) a daily challenge to implement their programs, but they work and we are ten times as profitable as we were when I started out. We have fewer callbacks. I have happier employees and most importantly LOYAL customers who REFER my company to friends, family and coworkers.


Congratulations on having a profitable business and happy customers, that is truly a win-win situation. You are fortunate to be blessed with the where-with-all to utilize and effectively implement a successful reworking of your business. I do agree with the premise of the philosophical shift in order for a company to overcome their own price objection and become profitable, although such a shift is not exclusive to PSI.

Now, my two cents.

I don't think that you can really call any uniform impeccable. There's no such thing. A tuxedo or suit can be impeccable, but don't try to play the shirt and pants that the guy wears under a cabinet to replace a faucet impeccable. It makes it sound like good grooming habits are alien to plumbers, well, newsflash to PSI, it's not. Sure, there are some beer swigging construction guys that don't shave for days and come to work hung over and sure, they might do a little service work, but these aren't the norm in the service industry in the twenty first century,nor for the last thirty years of the twentieth century either. PSI didn't invent good grooming habits or cleanliness, but it _appears _to be something they believe according to their propaganda.

Things like that are an insult to the plumbing industry. Non PSI members are not muck diving members of a low caste. We are just as professional as they claim to be and in a way more so because we don't make false claims of being superior, based upon false pretenses. That whole "smell good" really makes me cringe too. You know what it implies. It's an insult to their fellow workman. Professionals don't mock each other in their advertising. PERIOD. That would be akin to McDonald's saying that Burger King spits in your food, has roaches or doesn't clean their kitchen,that's bad form.

Sure there are some "crooked dirty buttcrack dudes" that don't honor their work, but guys like that don't honor anything. A man's moral code isn't going to be made or broken by a sales "success" group or a uniform. A man may put on airs regarding appearance and hygiene, but if he is a dirty scoundrel, then now he will be a well groomed scoundrel. PSI lacks in it's so-called "understanding" of "human nature" if they believe that that is the public perception of plumbers.

There is nothing new taught in any "success" group. It's all available in all sorts of recordings and seminars by any of the dozens of guru's du jour that teach how to close sales.

I have studied marketing materials from several different industries and have found it all to be the same thing with only a different name. HVAC, Plumbing, Carpet Cleaning, you name it and all the service businesses are doing it, but with a different guy selling it. Heck, even Ellen Rohr does a schtick with Carpet Cleaning guru, Howard Partridge, just to prove a point about it's interchangeability.

I've got two words for those of you that want sales training:

Zig Zigler, everything else is copy cat. Get his stuff on iTunes. Save $895.00 a month.

The good thing about some success groups is that they teach you to *implement *things that you may already know, but needed a push start to get going, but as far as being the creme de la creme is just nonsense to keep you sending your $$$$.$$ every month. 

This is not intended to be a jab to BooBerry, but merely an opinion on certain groups marketing tactics purveyed against fellow professionals. Overall, I am glad that PSI has help him/her in their pursuit.


----------



## Protech

Also well said Chris.



ChrisConnor said:


> Congratulations on having a profitable business and happy customers, that is truly a win-win situation. You are fortunate to be blessed with the where-with-all to utilize and effectively implement a successful reworking of your business. I do agree with the premise of the philosophical shift in order for a company to overcome their own price objection and become profitable, although such a shift is not exclusive to PSI.
> 
> Now, my two cents.
> 
> I don't think that you can really call any uniform impeccable. There's no such thing. A tuxedo or suit can be impeccable, but don't try to play the shirt and pants that the guy wears under a cabinet to replace a faucet impeccable. It makes it sound like good grooming habits are alien to plumbers, well, newsflash to PSI, it's not. Sure, there are some beer swigging construction guys that don't shave for days and come to work hung over and sure, they might do a little service work, but these aren't the norm in the service industry in the twenty first century,nor for the last thirty years of the twentieth century either. PSI didn't invent good grooming habits or cleanliness, but it _appears _to be something they believe according to their propaganda.
> 
> Things like that are an insult to the plumbing industry. Non PSI members are not muck diving members of a low caste. We are just as professional as they claim to be and in a way more so because we don't make false claims of being superior, based upon false pretenses. That whole "smell good" really makes me cringe too. You know what it implies. It's an insult to their fellow workman. Professionals don't mock each other in their advertising. PERIOD. That would be akin to McDonald's saying that Burger King spits in your food, has roaches or doesn't clean their kitchen,that's bad form.
> 
> Sure there are some "crooked dirty buttcrack dudes" that don't honor their work, but guys like that don't honor anything. A man's moral code isn't going to be made or broken by a sales "success" group or a uniform. A man may put on airs regarding appearance and hygiene, but if he is a dirty scoundrel, then now he will be a well groomed scoundrel. PSI lacks in it's so-called "understanding" of "human nature" if they believe that that is the public perception of plumbers.
> 
> There is nothing new taught in any "success" group. It's all available in all sorts of recordings and seminars by any of the dozens of guru's du jour that teach how to close sales.
> 
> I have studied marketing materials from several different industries and have found it all to be the same thing with only a different name. HVAC, Plumbing, Carpet Cleaning, you name it and all the service businesses are doing it, but with a different guy selling it. Heck, even Ellen Rohr does a schtick with Carpet Cleaning guru, Howard Partridge, just to prove a point about it's interchangeability.
> 
> I've got two words for those of you that want sales training:
> 
> Zig Zigler, everything else is copy cat. Get his stuff on iTunes. Save $895.00 a month.
> 
> The good thing about some success groups is that they teach you to *implement *things that you may already know, but needed a push start to get going, but as far as being the creme de la creme is just nonsense to keep you sending your $$$$.$$ every month.
> 
> This is not intended to be a jab to BooBerry, but merely an opinion on certain groups marketing tactics purveyed against fellow professionals. Overall, I am glad that PSI has help him/her in their pursuit.


----------



## Mongrel

*Thank you sir...*



ChrisConnor said:


> Congratulations on having a profitable business and happy customers, that is truly a win-win situation. You are fortunate to be blessed with the where-with-all to utilize and effectively implement a successful reworking of your business. I do agree with the premise of the philosophical shift in order for a company to overcome their own price objection and become profitable, although such a shift is not exclusive to PSI.
> 
> Now, my two cents.
> 
> I don't think that you can really call any uniform impeccable. There's no such thing. A tuxedo or suit can be impeccable, but don't try to play the shirt and pants that the guy wears under a cabinet to replace a faucet impeccable. It makes it sound like good grooming habits are alien to plumbers, well, newsflash to PSI, it's not. Sure, there are some beer swigging construction guys that don't shave for days and come to work hung over and sure, they might do a little service work, but these aren't the norm in the service industry in the twenty first century,nor for the last thirty years of the twentieth century either. PSI didn't invent good grooming habits or cleanliness, but it _appears _to be something they believe according to their propaganda.
> 
> Things like that are an insult to the plumbing industry. Non PSI members are not muck diving members of a low caste. We are just as professional as they claim to be and in a way more so because we don't make false claims of being superior, based upon false pretenses. That whole "smell good" really makes me cringe too. You know what it implies. It's an insult to their fellow workman. Professionals don't mock each other in their advertising. PERIOD. That would be akin to McDonald's saying that Burger King spits in your food, has roaches or doesn't clean their kitchen,that's bad form.
> 
> Sure there are some "crooked dirty buttcrack dudes" that don't honor their work, but guys like that don't honor anything. A man's moral code isn't going to be made or broken by a sales "success" group or a uniform. A man may put on airs regarding appearance and hygiene, but if he is a dirty scoundrel, then now he will be a well groomed scoundrel. PSI lacks in it's so-called "understanding" of "human nature" if they believe that that is the public perception of plumbers.
> 
> There is nothing new taught in any "success" group. It's all available in all sorts of recordings and seminars by any of the dozens of guru's du jour that teach how to close sales.
> 
> I have studied marketing materials from several different industries and have found it all to be the same thing with only a different name. HVAC, Plumbing, Carpet Cleaning, you name it and all the service businesses are doing it, but with a different guy selling it. Heck, even Ellen Rohr does a schtick with Carpet Cleaning guru, Howard Partridge, just to prove a point about it's interchangeability.
> 
> I've got two words for those of you that want sales training:
> 
> Zig Zigler, everything else is copy cat. Get his stuff on iTunes. Save $895.00 a month.
> 
> The good thing about some success groups is that they teach you to *implement *things that you may already know, but needed a push start to get going, but as far as being the creme de la creme is just nonsense to keep you sending your $$$$.$$ every month.
> 
> This is not intended to be a jab to BooBerry, but merely an opinion on certain groups marketing tactics purveyed against fellow professionals. Overall, I am glad that PSI has help him/her in their pursuit.


I was just gonna flip him the 

:laughing:

You showed much more restraint and class...


----------



## BooBerry

ChrisConnor said:


> I don't think that you can really call any uniform impeccable. There's no such thing. A tuxedo or suit can be impeccable, but don't try to play the shirt and pants that the guy wears under a cabinet to replace a faucet impeccable. It makes it sound like good grooming habits are alien to plumbers, well, newsflash to PSI, it's not. Sure, there are some beer swigging construction guys that don't shave for days and come to work hung over and sure, they might do a little service work, but these aren't the norm in the service industry in the twenty first century,nor for the last thirty years of the twentieth century either. PSI didn't invent good grooming habits or cleanliness, but it _appears _to be something they believe according to their propaganda.


I can't speak for your market Chris, but I know mine and I know the vast majority of my competition looks like a bag of crap. My technicians are issued twelve clean shirts and pants and are required to keep six in their truck. If they are dirty after a job, they're required to change into a clean and impeccable uniform. PSI surely didn't invent good grooming, but that's the public perception and PSI is exceptional at changing perceptions.



> Things like that are an insult to the plumbing industry. Non PSI members are not muck diving members of a low caste. We are just as professional as they claim to be and in a way more so because we don't make false claims of being superior, based upon false pretenses. That whole "smell good" really makes me cringe too. You know what it implies. It's an insult to their fellow workman. Professionals don't mock each other in their advertising. PERIOD. That would be akin to McDonald's saying that Burger King spits in your food, has roaches or doesn't clean their kitchen,that's bad form.


My company byline is "The Smell Good Plumber". It's good marketing that taps into the public perception and it gets my phone to ring.



> Sure there are some "crooked dirty buttcrack dudes" that don't honor their work, but guys like that don't honor anything. A man's moral code isn't going to be made or broken by a sales "success" group or a uniform. A man may put on airs regarding appearance and hygiene, but if he is a dirty scoundrel, then now he will be a well groomed scoundrel. PSI lacks in it's so-called "understanding" of "human nature" if they believe that that is the public perception of plumbers.


We don't hire anyone with even a tattoo. That's how important maintaining a clean image is to our company.



> There is nothing new taught in any "success" group. It's all available in all sorts of recordings and seminars by any of the dozens of guru's du jour that teach how to close sales.


PSI has broken down the management fundamentals in such a way so that you can plug in your information on everything from cost/job to staff to technician ration to find out if you're profitable. Their business model is easy to comprehend and rewarding if implemented properly. For me, at least, it works.



> I have studied marketing materials from several different industries and have found it all to be the same thing with only a different name. HVAC, Plumbing, Carpet Cleaning, you name it and all the service businesses are doing it, but with a different guy selling it. Heck, even Ellen Rohr does a schtick with Carpet Cleaning guru, Howard Partridge, just to prove a point about it's interchangeability.


How many contractors are on the New York Stock Exchange as publicly traded companies? PSI is in there as part of clockwork home services. 1 hour heating and air is publicly traded. It's a success story.

At the end of the day, I agree - there are many freely available solutions and I've explored a number of them. For me, PSI gave me a business model that is plumbing contractor specific that works. I've increased my profits by ten times in less than three years and we are expanding in a recessionary marketplace.

It works.


----------



## RealLivePlumber

My company byline is "The Smell Good Plumber". It's good marketing that taps into the public perception and it gets my phone to ring.

Really, that is your motto?:laughing::laughing::laughing: You got that on your trucks?:laughing::laughing::laughing:
If I saw that, I would laugh at ya, not call ya. 



We don't hire anyone with even a tattoo. That's how important maintaining a clean image is to our company.

Discrimination is illegal.


----------



## BooBerry

RealLivePlumber said:


> Really, that is your motto?:laughing::laughing::laughing: You got that on your trucks?:laughing::laughing::laughing: If I saw that, I would laugh at ya, not call ya.


And yet we dominate our market (POP: 535,000) for residential plumbing after opening our doors three short years ago. I'm laughing ... all the way to the bank. I have happy clients, too. I have two plumbers earning more than $100K/each/year.




> Discrimination is illegal.


I also don't hire anyone with a criminal record.:thumbsup: We do random drug tests as well - we value our clients that much.


----------



## ckoch407

ChrisConnor said:


> Congratulations on having a profitable business and happy customers, that is truly a win-win situation. You are fortunate to be blessed with the where-with-all to utilize and effectively implement a successful reworking of your business. I do agree with the premise of the philosophical shift in order for a company to overcome their own price objection and become profitable, although such a shift is not exclusive to PSI.
> 
> Now, my two cents.
> 
> I don't think that you can really call any uniform impeccable. There's no such thing. A tuxedo or suit can be impeccable, but don't try to play the shirt and pants that the guy wears under a cabinet to replace a faucet impeccable. It makes it sound like good grooming habits are alien to plumbers, well, newsflash to PSI, it's not. Sure, there are some beer swigging construction guys that don't shave for days and come to work hung over and sure, they might do a little service work, but these aren't the norm in the service industry in the twenty first century,nor for the last thirty years of the twentieth century either. PSI didn't invent good grooming habits or cleanliness, but it _appears _to be something they believe according to their propaganda.
> 
> Things like that are an insult to the plumbing industry. Non PSI members are not muck diving members of a low caste. We are just as professional as they claim to be and in a way more so because we don't make false claims of being superior, based upon false pretenses. That whole "smell good" really makes me cringe too. You know what it implies. It's an insult to their fellow workman. Professionals don't mock each other in their advertising. PERIOD. That would be akin to McDonald's saying that Burger King spits in your food, has roaches or doesn't clean their kitchen,that's bad form.
> 
> Sure there are some "crooked dirty buttcrack dudes" that don't honor their work, but guys like that don't honor anything. A man's moral code isn't going to be made or broken by a sales "success" group or a uniform. A man may put on airs regarding appearance and hygiene, but if he is a dirty scoundrel, then now he will be a well groomed scoundrel. PSI lacks in it's so-called "understanding" of "human nature" if they believe that that is the public perception of plumbers.
> 
> There is nothing new taught in any "success" group. It's all available in all sorts of recordings and seminars by any of the dozens of guru's du jour that teach how to close sales.
> 
> I have studied marketing materials from several different industries and have found it all to be the same thing with only a different name. HVAC, Plumbing, Carpet Cleaning, you name it and all the service businesses are doing it, but with a different guy selling it. Heck, even Ellen Rohr does a schtick with Carpet Cleaning guru, Howard Partridge, just to prove a point about it's interchangeability.
> 
> I've got two words for those of you that want sales training:
> 
> Zig Zigler, everything else is copy cat. Get his stuff on iTunes. Save $895.00 a month.
> 
> The good thing about some success groups is that they teach you to *implement *things that you may already know, but needed a push start to get going, but as far as being the creme de la creme is just nonsense to keep you sending your $$$$.$$ every month.
> 
> This is not intended to be a jab to BooBerry, but merely an opinion on certain groups marketing tactics purveyed against fellow professionals. Overall, I am glad that PSI has help him/her in their pursuit.


Well this IS a thread about pros and cons of PSI isnt it? And he shared his experience and perception with PSI didnt he? Do you have any experience with PSI ? I do, and heres what I know about them... They are not the bogey man everybody makes them out to be. Their job is to keep their members ahead of the curve. They do pretty good at it and I think that may contribute to a lot of the disgruntled sentiments expressed by some in this and other threads Ive seen. That and some of the membership is a little cocky. (Note, I may be cocky too if I made what they do. LOL) It is a lot more than a sales system too. If it were that simple do you really think people intelligent enough to consistently make millions would send them their money every week? They have to give tangible value in return for that money just as we have to give our service clients. It is a dynamic system that strives to stay in the top ___%. If it were just a template system that allowed itself to become irrelevant nobody would keep using it. Regarding the "Smell Good Plumber" line, it is a trademarked unique selling propopsition that from what I can tell works well. "My plumber will smell good and show up on time or Ill pay you." No bashing of others there. I think its compelling. Kinda like Wendys "Wheres the beef?" line. There is a member near my area that uses it and is wildly succesful with it. 

Not trying to push PSI on you or anyone. Just calling it like I see it. They arent perfect and they arent the bogey man. 

PS: One of the names you mentioned above is one of my greatest mentors and just happened to serve as president of Ben Franklin, and was also heavily involved in PSI during that tenure. Why does that matter? It doesnt, unless you consider ones source of influence in their ventures today.


----------



## ckoch407

Thanks Smells and BooBerry. Glad to see others who are having positive success with PSI. Been a member for just over a year now and am starting to make my way up the ladder of success. :thumbup:


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## Phat Cat

I used to think that PSI was bad based on exposure to one PSI company in our area. I've come across several on PZ and have since changed my mind.

It appears some have abused the system, but hardly a reason to bash the whole group.


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## ChrisConnor

BooBerry said:


> How many contractors are on the New York Stock Exchange as publicly traded companies? PSI is in there as part of clockwork home services. 1 hour heating and air is publicly traded. It's a success story.


How many contractors on the NYSE are publicly traded? I do not know, how many?

PSI and Clockwork Services are *not* contractors. They are business systems and franchisors. 

Just like Dwyer Group/Mister Rooter, Chemed/RotoRooter and ServiceMaster/Rescue Rooter, just to name a few.

The above companies are "publicly traded", is this the answer your are looking for? I can name more if you want.

The guy with the license is the contractor, not the franchisor. That's why you often read "each office independently owned and operated" and the business license will say "Billy Bob" or "Xyzee inc" DBA 'SomeRooterFranchise' .

"Billy Bob" or "Xyzee inc" is the contractor or corporate entity that employs the contractor who holds the license, not the Clockwork, Dwyer or Servicemaster.


Is your company on the NYSE? Do _you_ know of _any_ plumbing contractors on the NYSE? Or am I not understanding the question as you put it to me?



BooBerry said:


> At the end of the day, I agree - there are many freely available solutions and I've explored a number of them. For me, PSI gave me a business model that is plumbing contractor specific that works. I've increased my profits by ten times in less than three years and we are expanding in a recessionary marketplace.
> 
> It works.




Like I said before, I am glad that it works for you.:thumbup:

If being a PSI member affords you a clear conscience and desired profitability in your plumbing business, then that's great, I only offer a consideration of others for what your adopted marketing implies about your fellow plumbers.

It reminds me of the Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax collector in Luke 18:9-14 
and a different warning in Matthew 7:1-5.


----------



## ckoch407

ChrisConnor said:


> How many contractors on the NYSE are publicly traded? I do not know, how many?
> 
> PSI and Clockwork Services are *not* contractors. They are business systems and franchisors.
> 
> Just like Dwyer Group/Mister Rooter, Chemed/RotoRooter and ServiceMaster/Rescue Rooter, just to name a few.
> 
> The above companies are "publicly traded", is this the answer your are looking for? I can name more if you want.
> 
> The guy with the license is the contractor, not the franchisor. That's why you often read "each office independently owned and operated" and the business license will say "Billy Bob" or "Xyzee inc" DBA 'SomeRooterFranchise' .
> 
> "Billy Bob" or "Xyzee inc" is the contractor or corporate entity that employs the contractor who holds the license, not the Clockwork, Dwyer or Servicemaster.
> 
> 
> Is your company on the NYSE? Do _you_ know of _any_ plumbing contractors on the NYSE? Or am I not understanding the question as you put it to me?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said before, I am glad that it works for you.:thumbup:
> 
> If being a PSI member affords you a clear conscience and desired profitability in your plumbing business, then that's great, I only offer a consideration of others for what your adopted marketing implies about your fellow plumbers.
> 
> It reminds me of the Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax collector in Luke 18:9-14
> and a different warning in Matthew 7:1-5.


Cant speak for Dwyer or others, but Clockwork does own and operate a fair percentage of their stores. They will buy back a franchise from an independent owner. That is part of the appeal to some is their exit strategy.


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## ChrisConnor

ckoch407 said:


> Cant speak for Dwyer or others, but Clockwork does own and operate a fair percentage of their stores. They will buy back a franchise from an independent owner. That is part of the appeal to some is their exit strategy.


 
Yes, but they still have to have a "qualifier" license holder that is involved in the day to day operations. As far as the state is concerned, at least in Georgia anyway, the person with the license is the contractor and responsible person. You can't give a license to a corporation.


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## Song Dog

ckoch407 said:


> Cant speak for Dwyer or others, but Clockwork does own and operate a fair percentage of their stores. They will buy back a franchise from an independent owner. That is part of the appeal to some is their exit strategy.


Need to contact some franchises who that was promised to when they got in. Did they buy the franchise from them, NOPE! They are full of promises. Fortunetly my experience with a franchise, is POOR consultant in the beginning. 

In Christ,

Song Dog


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## BooBerry

> PSI and Clockwork Services are *not* contractors. They are business systems and franchisors.


That are specific to contractors. Bad wording on my part.





> Like I said before, I am glad that it works for you.:thumbup:
> 
> If being a PSI member affords you a clear conscience and desired profitability in your plumbing business, then that's great, I only offer a consideration of others for what your adopted marketing implies about your fellow plumbers.
> 
> It reminds me of the Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax collector in Luke 18:9-14
> and a different warning in Matthew 7:1-5.


I don't for one moment doubt the technical capacity of plumbers who don't quite hit the mark for our service delivery model. To each their own, really. What I can say is that our client base is increasing every single day and I thank PSI for their approach to service delivery. Our guys earn more money and work fewer calls each day while in most other shops its a race to get as many calls done in a single day for a shop to remain profitable. People are happy to pay top dollar for a level of service that is a stark contrast (in a positive way) to the bulk of those in the contracting industry.


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## TheMaster

I think without box trucks and PSI we would all starve from lack of work. I know I owe all my success to PSI....best thing that I've done for my business since the ridgid closet auger and horned wax seals:whistling2:


----------



## stillaround

Where are you located boo...
and what are you gonna do about your logo if you decide to quit ..pay the 2 years dues for it...Phoenix, St. Louis...or in the sticks


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## ChrisConnor

BooBerry said:


> Our guys earn more money and *work fewer calls each day* while in most other shops its a race to get as many calls done in a single day for a shop to remain profitable. People are happy to pay top dollar for a level of service that is a stark contrast (in a positive way) to the bulk of those in the contracting industry.


So, do you say customers "no" to getting service, if and when you get really busy, just so your guys can work fewer calls? 

Or does your higher prices just have fewer people call you now?

The reason I asked is because I once worked for a PSI contractor and the techs didn't go home until all the jobs were finished, in contrast to other shops that closed strictly at 5:00 pm or the customer paid overtime if they insisted on same day after hours service.


As a matter of fact, techs weren't told if it was a busy day or a slow day, so they would not rush through the repair. They were expected to maximize the sales call with the customer. So you were expected to find everything you could on a call and complete them, even if there were twenty other people in the queue. 

So,if there were a dozen calls left at 4:00 pm and three technicians, you know what that means. How does you company handle that?


Are you quantity of calls less or the same than it was before you joined PSI? 

What is your policy on laying off employees? Is it based on "last hired, first fired" or is it based upon sales performance?


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## stillaround

Chris, Iagree with your sentiments..but I think the smell good plumber is not a slam as much as cute, clever , brilliant marketing phrase..one of their best...and it caught fire in Indianapolis 10 years ago and launched the J. Carter bsnss. which is now the flagship BF. 
Boo berry talks the PSI talk almost verbatum..it works in some areas and not as well in others...good image, good operation, charge enough..do whats right...at some pace will always do well


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## BooBerry

stillaround said:


> Where are you located boo...
> and what are you gonna do about your logo if you decide to quit ..pay the 2 years dues for it...Phoenix, St. Louis...or in the sticks


I don't plan on quitting but who knows, right?


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## BooBerry

ChrisConnor said:


> So, do you say customers "no" to getting service, if and when you get really busy, just so your guys can work fewer calls?


We're pretty busy right now so I'm in a hiring mode.



> Or does your higher prices just have fewer people call you now?
> 
> The reason I asked is because I once worked for a PSI contractor and the techs didn't go home until all the jobs were finished, in contrast to other shops that closed strictly at 5:00 pm or the customer paid overtime if they insisted on same day after hours service.


I can't speak for other shops but at mine our guys work until 5:00 and are paid overtime if a job goes over that time frame. We do after hours calls and I have two guys on call in the evenings and weekends. The thing is that we dispatch our techs for profits, matching the skill level of the tech with the nature of the job. If he runs into problems, we can send another one to help out or we have a technical adviser on the phone to help them through it. I have no problem paying overtime, though - guys have a right to it.




> As a matter of fact, techs weren't told if it was a busy day or a slow day, so they would not rush through the repair. They were expected to maximize the sales call with the customer. So you were expected to find everything you could on a call and complete them, even if there were twenty other people in the queue.


We don't put the focus on sales - instead, our focus is on giving a client options and letting the client decide for themselves what they should do next. For example, I might send a tech out to deal with a leaking faucet, but the tech also does a plumbing inspection on the entire house and makes the client aware of any deficiencies. If the client decides on further repairs beyond that of why we were called out there, we give them a price before we do the job and they can decide whether to proceed. I'd fire on the spot (and have fired on the spot) guys who push clients into a decision the client doesn't want to make. What I do know is that when we do a safety inspection and point out the deficiencies, it saves us from a call a month down the line from a client who is angry that we didn't tell them about another plumbing problem while we were at their house. We don't have twenty people in the queue, ever. Our client care reps have scheduling software so that if someone is calling and we are booked up, we fit them in the next available spot. If it's an emergency repair, we'll dispatch someone out as soon as humanly possible, but we also have a priority service process by which our service plan members get to go to the head of the line.



> So,if there were a dozen calls left at 4:00 pm and three technicians, you know what that means. How does you company handle that?


As mentioned, we dispatch for profits matching the skill level of the tech with the nature of the call. If it's 4:00 PM and I have three techs with a dozen calls for service, we'll offer after hours service or book them in the next available slot. If that doesn't suit the client, no worries - there are LOTS of plumbers in the phone book! 




> Are you quantity of calls less or the same than it was before you joined PSI?


The quantity of our calls has increased by 47% since joining PSI.



> What is your policy on laying off employees? Is it based on "last hired, first fired" or is it based upon sales performance?


Laying off employees is something I haven't had to do since joining up. If anything, I'm having problems finding skilled techs! That said, we work on the following premise: "skills will get you hired, but attitude will get you fired." I'd rather keep a less skilled technician who is a team player with a 100% positive attitude and who believes in the PSI approach than a far more skilled tech who doesn't believe in our approach. Again, it's all about building value while we're in the client's home and attitude governs everything we do in the hiring and firing of staff.


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## Protech

You sound just like Carl D. from the tech training videos :laughing:. Not that it's a bad thing.


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## ChrisConnor

Protech said:


> You sound just like Carl D. from the tech training videos :laughing:. Not that it's a bad thing.



Who's Carl D.? is he anything like Tec Daddy?


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## stillaround

Carl was cool. He was a ranger and was running the profit day when I joined..he ran the training when I went with 2 employees. Somehow he didnt blend with the muckity mucks well enough. He made the training school


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## pauliplumber

"What I do know is that when we do a safety inspection and point out the deficiencies, it saves us from a call a month down the line from a client who is angry that we didn't tell them about another plumbing problem while we were at their house."

Seriously? Well I've only been in business for 11 years, but I can't ever remember anyone blaming me for not finding another plumbing problem unrelated to the one they called me out for in the first place.


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## robthaplumber

My Mother was a dispatcher at Blessings Plumb. in Va. Beach for 2 yrs. and my Aunt was the V.P. I get a phone call from my mom and she said that my former employer was just in the office there. My former employer that sold his business to Ben Franklin and started recruiting for PSI. The same Ben Franklin that tanked 6 months later. (Priced themselves outta tha market) I called the owner and told him to RUN from this man. He insisted that it all looked good and that I couldn't change his mind. My Mom called me 8 months later and told me she was getting laid off. She said that they went from 6 plumbers to 2 plumbers that did good to get 2 calls a day. The phone quit ringing so she was not needed. She said the plumbers were sick of trying to build value to a $300.00 flapper. This business has been around and thrived for 10-15 yrs. Until PSI!!!!! The last I heard they were considering shutting the doors. PSI, CLOCKWERKS, NEXSTAR, and all the others are a JOKE!!!! They are founded out of GREED and UNETHICAL practices.:furious: Thats just my opinion because I've been there.


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## ckoch407

robthaplumber said:


> my Mother Was A Dispatcher At Blessings Plumb. In Va. Beach For 2 Yrs. And My Aunt Was The V.p. I Get A Phone Call From My Mom And She Said That My Former Employer Was Just In The Office There. My Former Employer That Sold His Business To Ben Franklin And Started Recruiting For Psi. The Same Ben Franklin That Tanked 6 Months Later. (priced Themselves Outta Tha Market) I Called The Owner And Told Him To Run From This Man. He Insisted That It All Looked Good And That I Couldn't Change His Mind. My Mom Called Me 8 Months Later And Told Me She Was Getting Laid Off. She Said That They Went From 6 Plumbers To 2 Plumbers That Did Good To Get 2 Calls A Day. The Phone Quit Ringing So She Was Not Needed. She Said The Plumbers Were Sick Of Trying To Build Value To A $300.00 Flapper. This Business Has Been Around And Thrived For 10-15 Yrs. Until Psi!!!!! The Last I Heard They Were Considering Shutting The Doors. Psi, Clockwerks, Nexstar, And All The Others Are A Joke!!!! They Are Founded Out Of Greed And Unethical Practices.:furious: Thats Just My Opinion Because I've Been There.


Ive Been With Psi For About 18 Months Now And Everything Ive Been Taught From Clockwork And Psi Has Been About Doing Whats Right. They Are The First To Tell You If You Abuse The System You Will Only Hurt Yourself. Psi Or Not, You Would Have To Be Pretty Hell Bent On Failure To Trainwreck A Company The Way You Described. $300 Flapper Huh? Thats Hard To Believe. Read The Posts From Some Of The Current Members. Abuse Is Is Abuse Whether Yu Are Involved In A Group Or Not. Good News Travels Fast, Bad News Even Faster. To Say They Are All Unethical Based On A Bad Experience Is Like Saying Everyone From Tennessee Is An Evil Bigot Because I See A Story In The News About One Person From There Who Did Something Bad. Ive Been There (am There Now) And It Has Treated Me Awesome From Day One.


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## robthaplumber

ckoch407 said:


> Ive Been With Psi For About 18 Months Now And Everything Ive Been Taught From Clockwork And Psi Has Been About Doing Whats Right. They Are The First To Tell You If You Abuse The System You Will Only Hurt Yourself. Psi Or Not, You Would Have To Be Pretty Hell Bent On Failure To Trainwreck A Company The Way You Described. $300 Flapper Huh? Thats Hard To Believe. Read The Posts From Some Of The Current Members. Abuse Is Is Abuse Whether Yu Are Involved In A Group Or Not. Good News Travels Fast, Bad News Even Faster. To Say They Are All Unethical Based On A Bad Experience Is Like Saying Everyone From Tennessee Is An Evil Bigot Because I See A Story In The News About One Person From There Who Did Something Bad. Ive Been There (am There Now) And It Has Treated Me Awesome From Day One.


There again, it was my opinion/experience. I've worked for 2 companies affiliated with PSI and both of them have went out of business within 1-3 yrs. of signing up. I see your point about abusing the sys. and that might be why these companies failed. I just found it a little ironic how both of these companies collapsed after signing up. I was tha "Field Supervisor" for both companies and evidently the most knowledgable in plumbing. These companies would spend good money to send kids to sales training out west because they were clean shav'n and just came off of a car lot?:blink: When they were lucky enough to sell a job, 6x out of 10x they called me to instruct them on how to make tha repair. The owners philosophy was, "You sell tha job and then we'll worry about making the repair". Ironically both companies I worked for were just like this. I hope you can see my experiences with PSI, CLOCKWORKS, and evidently abusive owners. Not to mention the co. my mom worked for. Coinsidence??

On the contrary, I am happy to hear that yourself and others in tha PZ are reaping tha benefits of PSI and others like them. I harbor no hard feelings towards anyone who can make things work. I know the feeling of having bad reviews against your investments. I do a LOT of home warr. work and make a killing doing so. There are a lot of guys on the PZ that give a bad rap to home warranties but I am extremly thankful for them. Peace my friend.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

I gave a call away to rr tonight just because they was on their way out, and the woman was a renter. She wanted to change her mind and go with me since I called back, knowing rr is going to be high. 

She was telling me the toilet was running slow but couldn't get a clear answer on when the sink or tub runs, if it backs up or vice versa.

I've got an elderly couple/mature son that I'm putting a mechanic's lien on their home when 30 days comes up. They told me they was a tenant after the fact.

I really don't like to ask people if they own their home on each call.


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## Mega Smash

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I gave a call away to rr tonight just because they was on their way out, and the woman was a renter. She wanted to change her mind and go with me since I called back, knowing rr is going to be high.
> 
> She was telling me the toilet was running slow but couldn't get a clear answer on when the sink or tub runs, if it backs up or vice versa.
> 
> I've got an elderly couple/mature son that I'm putting a mechanic's lien on their home when 30 days comes up. They told me they was a tenant after the fact.
> 
> I really don't like to ask people if they own their home on each call.


That's one of the most frustrating things I have to deal with at my current company.

I get sent on a call for a leaking HWT, and dispatch doesn't even bother to ask if the tank is owned or a rental. I've run into a similar situation where it's renters of an apt/condo that call, and the landlord is MIA.

Puts you in between a rock and a hard place because you don't want to inconvenience the tenant more by shutting off their water, but at the same time, you don't want to do work that you won't get paid for.

Back to the PSI debate about the $300.00 flapper install. "Building value" only goes so far - blinding the customer with BS takes you the rest of the way.


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## TheMaster

robthaplumber said:


> My Mother was a dispatcher at Blessings Plumb. in Va. Beach for 2 yrs. and my Aunt was the V.P. I get a phone call from my mom and she said that my former employer was just in the office there. My former employer that sold his business to Ben Franklin and started recruiting for PSI. The same Ben Franklin that tanked 6 months later. (Priced themselves outta tha market) I called the owner and told him to RUN from this man. He insisted that it all looked good and that I couldn't change his mind. My Mom called me 8 months later and told me she was getting laid off. She said that they went from 6 plumbers to 2 plumbers that did good to get 2 calls a day. The phone quit ringing so she was not needed. She said the plumbers were sick of trying to build value to a $300.00 flapper. This business has been around and thrived for 10-15 yrs. Until PSI!!!!! The last I heard they were considering shutting the doors. PSI, CLOCKWERKS, NEXSTAR, and all the others are a JOKE!!!! They are founded out of GREED and UNETHICAL practices.:furious: Thats just my opinion because I've been there.


Its refreshing to hear the truth from sombody:thumbsup: This post should be written in stone and displayed for all to see.


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## Phat Cat

I have witnessed PSI Companies abuse the system and I have knowledge of those who use it with integrity.

The analytical side of me says there is more to the story above. If both companies had been very successful for a long period of time, why would they jump ship and go with PSI? The initial investment can be quite costly.

Logic tells me there are two possibilities:

1. Both owners were greedy and thought they found a 'get rich quick in plumbing' program and abused it. PSI utilizes systems and procedures, they do not dictate your price.

or

2. Their respective businesses were already failing and they were grasping in all directions. In this case, the recession was the more likely culprit. VA Beach is a tourist area and the last two years have been brutal on that industry.


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## TheMaster

PlumbCrazy said:


> I have witnessed PSI Companies abuse the system and I have knowledge of those who use it with integrity.
> 
> The analytical side of me says there is more to the story above. If both companies had been very successful for a long period of time, why would they jump ship and go with PSI? The initial investment can be quite costly.
> 
> Logic tells me there are two possibilities:
> 
> 1. Both owners were greedy and thought they found a 'get rich quick in plumbing' program and abused it. PSI utilizes systems and procedures, they do not dictate your price.
> 
> or
> 
> 2. Their respective businesses were already failing and they were grasping in all directions. In this case, the recession was the more likely culprit. VA Beach is a tourist area and the last two years have been brutal on that industry.


OR NUMBER 3:
They drank from the kool-aid pitcher they found on the internet and listened to people defend the systems on forums. You think a guys gonna buy a system for a few thousand dollars and then admit they were ripped the fk off and its total B.S??? I dont think so:laughing:. Nope...most will defend it till the end to save face. The typical purchaser doesn't understand that theres no free ride and the grass is not greener on the other side. If both will work why the hell spend any money and the time it takes to learn somthing thats based off time and material anyway???:whistling2:


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## Redwood

I find this all very interesting debate...

I've been around the industry a couple of years now...
And I've learned a couple of things about it...

Roto-Rooter, Mr. Rooter, Rooter Man, Rescue Rooter, hell for that matter Rosco Rooter too, PSI. Ben Franklin, Mrs. Fields, Subway, Dunkin Donuts, McDonalds, etc. what do they all have in common?

A successful franchise business model!:thumbup:

It doesn't matter where you apply it heck didn't Mrs. Fields go to work for Mr.Rooter a few years back...:laughing:

You change the color of the fluff, come up with a catchy slogan apply the basic model to the new business and you too can sell franchises...

All you need is to sell your program to a business owner and you are rolling...

Show them a few things they should have been doing on their own and your franchise organization can make a killing being a parasite...:laughing:

Truth be told many business owners won't take the time to look at all the techniques franchises use and apply it to their own business so many will pay the fees put on the Nike Sneakers, and pull the purple shroud over their head after they drink the ...










Passing on thousands of dollars that they could have used growing "Their Business" or had in profits on up to the cookie cutters at the franchise...:whistling2:


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## TheMaster

Sarasota ,FL must be the flatrate mecca because I get crap in the mail trying to get me to go to seminars........Thats the franchise operators hard earned money at work and I laugh everytime i throw it in the trash....looks like they need me more than I need them,kinda like the home warranty companies wanting me to work for them at a reduced rate. I'm the captain of my ship and I dont need any rats trying to get a free ride off my work.


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## user2090

Reading many posts on this thread gives real insight into the problems with franchising. Seems the only one making money with them is the one selling the franchise.


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## RealLivePlumber

I've been in business three years now, and have been getting alot of those ads in the mail. Toss 'em right in the can. 

Business is pretty good, and my gross is up every month. I hope the net is, too


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## ToUtahNow

George Brazil was one of the first big flat-rate franchises. At some point things were going south and Mike Diamond stepped in an took over some of those franchises. George Brazil and Mike Diamond went on to found Contractor 2000 which is now Nextstar. Fast forward a few years and Mike Diamond helps to found PSI. I always wondered why George and Mike founded these companies instead of concentrating on their own businesses.

Mark


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## RealLivePlumber

ToUtahNow said:


> George Brazil was one of the first big flat-rate franchises. At some point things were going south and Mike Diamond stepped in an took over some of those franchises. George Brazil and Mike Diamond went on to found Contractor 2000 which is now Nextstar. Fast forward a few years and Mike Diamond helps to found PSI. I always wondered why George and Mike founded these companies instead of concentrating on their own businesses.
> 
> Mark


 Simple. They were better businessmen than they were plumbers. 

And they probably made alot more money:furious:


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## Richard Hilliard

*psi*

Contractors 2000 had more than Diamond and Brazil help start the company. There was a split and another company was formed actually purchased and renamed Clockwork. Clockworks office originally housed in St Louis and now resides in Sarasota, Florida.

I really like the business ideas and format that PSI offers to the industry. The reason they exist is to help people organize their companies. Many companies started with very little business philosophy or business knows how. Often plumbing companies are started with moonlighting out of a junk van and basic tools. Soon the side work becomes more profitable than working for the company for a pay check. Next comes a start up with no idea of what to do and this is followed up with more work than one person can handle. Next comes employees and still no idea of how to run a business.

Sure there are some who are satisfied with little or no growth and these people want to keep the status quo of their organization, for those that want more there are organizations like PSI that offer tools for growth.

I do like the business ideas and models that PSI offers. The management tips are fantastic and can be found with other organizations and through books. However many owners do not understand or know where to turn to receive this help. I am interested in PSI’s management and office help and in this area they are excellent with the opportunities that they offer. Terry Nichols is one of a kind and an awesome individual that is a bundle of energy. What he passes to those who listen is fantastic. Jim Abrams is also pretty awesome individual that has great business concepts and business sense. When I had my plumbing business in the 70’s.80’s and until 1993 I used many of the concepts that Clockwork suggests with tracking the company and discovering where the company requires a change. For a business to use their business model and office set up, they are one of the most qualified companies to teach and train that I have ever had the chance to investigate.

I have read each forum post and thought most of it is pretty funny. Each has said the presentation was fabulous and interesting. Each gave thought to buying into the system. That speaks volumes of their ability to convince that change is good with those companies that attended. It also implies that each company is looking for something to change and the owners do not understand what needs changed to improve their company. What I have learned from this forum posts is that most are resistant to change and change starts with the top and moves in that direction, top to bottom.

I do have one huge problem with PSI and that is with the sales training that is offered and suggested. I was appalled at the sales seminar and training and sent a three page letter. I wanted to bolt from the sales training seminar that myself and another co-worker attended. However I suffered through it keeping intense notes and use that as training for those I coach of what not to do in any situation.

I do understand the spotless image that is expressed and realize that it is a strategy that does work and is a marketing tool that is fantastic. I understand the practice of positive truck placement, neat trucks, using the trucks as advertisement. How many of us want our trucks parked at the tavern half the day or night. I also understands image does not make a plumber a plumber however understand how much more powerful a plumber is in the eyes of a client when they are neat. Understand the difference between coming to work and going to work. The attitude of wanting to go to work instead of having to go to work is huge and attitude is 93% of the job. This is shown here in this forum; I see and have taken notice of the professionals in this site as being amazing professionals.

If you are in search of solid tools to help with marketing, positioning your company investigate PSI and other groups. However please do not think you can join any organization and quit half way through and expect money back. When your clients fire you, do you give them their money back that they have spent with you?


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## njoy plumbing

Wow that was the longest seminar iv'e ever sat thru.:blink:


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## Redwood

Maybe I'll just sell Amway....:laughing:


----------



## TheMaster

Richard Hilliar said:


> Contractors 2000 had more than Diamond and Brazil help start the company. There was a split and another company was formed actually purchased and renamed Clockwork. Clockworks office originally housed in St Louis and now resides in Sarasota, Florida.
> 
> I really like the business ideas and format that PSI offers to the industry. The reason they exist is to help people organize their companies. Many companies started with very little business philosophy or business knows how. Often plumbing companies are started with moonlighting out of a junk van and basic tools. Soon the side work becomes more profitable than working for the company for a pay check. Next comes a start up with no idea of what to do and this is followed up with more work than one person can handle. Next comes employees and still no idea of how to run a business.
> 
> Sure there are some who are satisfied with little or no growth and these people want to keep the status quo of their organization, for those that want more there are organizations like PSI that offer tools for growth.
> 
> I do like the business ideas and models that PSI offers. The management tips are fantastic and can be found with other organizations and through books. However many owners do not understand or know where to turn to receive this help. I am interested in PSI’s management and office help and in this area they are excellent with the opportunities that they offer. Terry Nichols is one of a kind and an awesome individual that is a bundle of energy. What he passes to those who listen is fantastic. Jim Abrams is also pretty awesome individual that has great business concepts and business sense. When I had my plumbing business in the 70’s.80’s and until 1993 I used many of the concepts that Clockwork suggests with tracking the company and discovering where the company requires a change. For a business to use their business model and office set up, they are one of the most qualified companies to teach and train that I have ever had the chance to investigate.
> 
> I have read each forum post and thought most of it is pretty funny. Each has said the presentation was fabulous and interesting. Each gave thought to buying into the system. That speaks volumes of their ability to convince that change is good with those companies that attended. It also implies that each company is looking for something to change and the owners do not understand what needs changed to improve their company. What I have learned from this forum posts is that most are resistant to change and change starts with the top and moves in that direction, top to bottom.
> 
> I do have one huge problem with PSI and that is with the sales training that is offered and suggested. I was appalled at the sales seminar and training and sent a three page letter. I wanted to bolt from the sales training seminar that myself and another co-worker attended. However I suffered through it keeping intense notes and use that as training for those I coach of what not to do in any situation.
> 
> I do understand the spotless image that is expressed and realize that it is a strategy that does work and is a marketing tool that is fantastic. I understand the practice of positive truck placement, neat trucks, using the trucks as advertisement. How many of us want our trucks parked at the tavern half the day or night. I also understands image does not make a plumber a plumber however understand how much more powerful a plumber is in the eyes of a client when they are neat. Understand the difference between coming to work and going to work. The attitude of wanting to go to work instead of having to go to work is huge and attitude is 93% of the job. This is shown here in this forum; I see and have taken notice of the professionals in this site as being amazing professionals.
> 
> If you are in search of solid tools to help with marketing, positioning your company investigate PSI and other groups. However please do not think you can join any organization and quit half way through and expect money back. When your clients fire you, do you give them their money back that they have spent with you?


How are you connected with what your talking up? I notice your in Sarasota,Fl also.


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## Protech

This war just keeps coming back every day !


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## Richard Hilliard

*flat rate*

The master, good question as a manager of a plumbing company that does work in the field and it is my responsibility to investigate what may or may not work with our plumbing company. I do believe that it is our responsibility to help guide our clients and allow them the best possible choices and information to make a great decision. I believe that I owe it to the staff to discover any means to help improve their quality of life. I believe in the sales process and have been involved in sales for the trades for a very long time. I have authored a sales book specific to the trades.

I have always been interested in communicating more effectively with my clients and learning to implement strategies that can increase my ability and those around me to a different level.


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## RealLivePlumber

Protech said:


> This war just keeps coming back every day !


 Thats some funny shiot right there. :thumbsup:

I guess he did too many drugs over in 'nam


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## TheMaster

Richard Hilliar said:


> The master, good question as a manager of a plumbing company that does work in the field and it is my responsibility to investigate what may or may not work with our plumbing company. I do believe that it is our responsibility to help guide our clients and allow them the best possible choices and information to make a great decision. I believe that I owe it to the staff to discover any means to help improve their quality of life. I believe in the sales process and have been involved in sales for the trades for a very long time. I have authored a sales book specific to the trades.
> 
> I have always been interested in communicating more effectively with my clients and learning to implement strategies that can increase my ability and those around me to a different level.


 Whats the name of the book,where can I buy it and how much can I expect to pay for it? Lets cut to the chase.....I'm busy.


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## Airgap

Protech said:


> This war just keeps coming back every day !


Tease me wit dem cupcakes one mo time an ima gonna go Nam on ya a$$.....


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## ToUtahNow

TheMaster said:


> Whats the name of the book,where can I buy it and how much can I expect to pay for it? Lets cut to the chase.....I'm busy.


 
Richard Hilliar has been here before. The book is around $9.00 at Tower but I can't find any reviews so buy it at your own risk.

http://www.tower.com/outside-busine...iard-paperback/wapi/114254984#product_details

Mark


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## pauliplumber

RealLivePlumber said:


> Thats some funny shiot right there. :thumbsup:
> 
> I guess he did too many drugs over in 'nam


 
I swear that dog has the same look on his face as mine did when I accidentally gave him a hit of acid. 




:laughing: I'm only serious...


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## Richard Hilliard

*flat rate*

All books are purchased at the buyers risk. Ask your local library to get the book on thier shelf and read it for free. If you like it then purchase the book.That is exactly how I started reading sales books and other books before I started my own library at home. It is available through the big three book stores.


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## angl3

*Psi*



Plumber said:


> PSI is Mike Diamond's baby. Mike has done more for our industry than any man has ever done. His shops are the ultimate in absolutely everything. His pricing methods are beyond compare...literally. I read his column first thing every month.
> 
> He's got a skin so thick that I doubt anything bothers him. Him being a Jewish gay with parents as business partners would toughen anyone up. :laughing:
> 
> That business model may work if you are in a huge city, but no way in a small town/county. We have a Roto-Rooter and that's it for franchises because the area isn't exactly SoCal.
> 
> I'm not spending on anything except my current ads. The phones aren't ringing because people aren't buying---me included.


I was a founding member of PSI that was told that we would be shown how to set up our company like Mike Diamond. I talked to him before I joined & he stated that we would not be doing anything that was not proven! That was not true, we were encouraged to put in very wordy display ads, they were the best. I fought this but went & did as they said. It was a disaster!!!! At the end of the 3rd year, I went to see Mike's operation, all of his display ads were like my old ones. He said he was about to change them to the new ones. The point being, it was a con. We were told we had a money back guarantee, that did not happen either. Save your money. 

I am looking for any PSI founders that bought any Datacor Warranties for their customers. I need to talk to you.


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## Plumber pete

Hello, I,m new here but I was drawn in with your discussion of PSI. I joined in feb last year after 21 years of buisness. I was an excellent plumber but not so great of a buisness man. My wife and I had decided that if we didn,t find a better way we were shutting down. We,ve had up to 15 employees and still were barely getting by. Our employees made more money than we did and were on the verge of divorce due to financial stress . We were at that point married 26 years. to make a long story short. since that time, I have never missed the money I pay each month. I can call psi for help anytime and I have a personal mentor. A 15 year member, extremely successful two hours away.We have Increased our service work by 5 times what it was when we started. For the first time in 22 years now, we draw a nice salary each week and have ended the year with the highest gross ever, the highest personal income ever and a true net proffit of over 12 percent. All this is not necessarily from pricing but from true organization and buisness practices.if you want to buy an SUV you can buy a Hyunda or you can buy a Lexus. There is a differance and a reason one cost more. We are not for everybody just as we all dont own Lexus. But in all the customers we have worked for, only one said they thought the price was too high after we finished our job. There are bad apples in every organization, even the police. And even the BBBis facing ethics violations for allegedly "selling"grades. So you can say what you want about it. My customers are happy, my employees are happy, my wife is happy, and oh yea I dont have creditors anymore, I pay cash as I go including cash purchases of two trucks this year.So please mark me as a supporter of psi . Thanks


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## Plumber pete

Wiser said:


> Smells - Selling is not a dirty word. I was referring to techs (salesman & very few plumbers) selling under the guise the item could not be repaired. Trying to sell a new toilet for $650.00 because the old one had a leak - the toilet had a bad wax seal and was less than a year old. Many people have been burned by this Company and word travels. Options good - extorting - baaaadddd!
> 
> TMartin - Redwood's response above is close to reality. Our local group are not the Nordstrom's of plumbing. Not even close. All appearance, little substance. Just interviewed one of their techs who has been to all the training - very unimpressive.
> 
> No one knows their local economy better than anyone else. If you think you are like your average customer, ask yourself about this scenario.
> 
> Furnish & install Cadet III ADA toilet complete with new seat and 'No burst' supply.
> 
> Plumber #1 - Master Plumber doing side work because he is laid off. He will get to it when he has time, but he is not insured. He's too good to clean up his own mess. Price $295.00
> 
> Plumbing Co. #1 - Licensed plumbers, but hard to get a hold of and pin down for an appointment. Answering service / no office. Some of the guys and vans look rough. Had to call twice to get a return call.
> Price $385.00
> 
> Plumbing Co. #2 - Licensed plumbers, office, friendly secretary, and firm appt. times. Plumbers and vans look nice and clean. Plumber wipes his feet off and cleans up after himself. Price $420.00
> 
> PSI Company - Techs, office, friendly secretary, firm appt. time. Tech looks nice, rolling billboard box truck looks nice and clean. Tech even puts booties on and cleans up after himself. Gives you a voucher for $25.00 off your next service and offers to check all of your plumbing because he is such a nice guy! Price $775.00
> 
> You're a consumer - which company would you choose? Even if PSI company had professional plumbers, I would be livid to find out I spent $355.00 more dollars for booties, a lot a yes ma'ams, and a 'free' plumbing inspection. If it cost $30-$40.00 more, I could accept that. At $355.00 I am a big mouth repeating the story over and over to anyone who would listen. Can you believe this Company ripped me off? The above scenario is close to reality when it comes to pricing in my area.


When you look at the warranty and the fact that all prices are presented and agreed upon before the work is done, its not a rip off


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## Plumber pete

Mega Smash said:


> That's one of the most frustrating things I have to deal with at my current company.
> 
> I get sent on a call for a leaking HWT, and dispatch doesn't even bother to ask if the tank is owned or a rental. I've run into a similar situation where it's renters of an apt/condo that call, and the landlord is MIA.
> 
> Puts you in between a rock and a hard place because you don't want to inconvenience the tenant more by shutting off their water, but at the same time, you don't want to do work that you won't get paid for.
> 
> Back to the PSI debate about the $300.00 flapper install. "Building value" only goes so far - blinding the customer with BS takes you the rest of the way.


just for the sake of arguement I am looking at my PSI pricing guide and there is no $300 flapper. The most expensive one is about half that and the cheapest is about 20% of that.with a minimum 1 year warranty or more. Here in my town, it is incredibly dificult to get professional trades people. Our customers have been very impressed with our company. We wont get them all, but the ones we get stay with us. I,m proud to be a PSI member


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## hulihan

My two cents is, you are making MD rich and almost all the guys I know who are involved in it are as close to going under as they can be, they may have alot of info, but in todays market, who cares, it is a good networking scam, and very pricy just to have a pretty patch on your arm, no one seems to care about the PHCC, PSI etc...... except us contractors, it is a tough market, they sure have alot of great info, but at a pricey cost ! Just my thought !


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## BooBerry

hulihan said:


> My two cents is, you are making MD rich and almost all the guys I know who are involved in it are as close to going under as they can be, they may have alot of info, but in todays market, who cares, it is a good networking scam, and very pricy just to have a pretty patch on your arm, no one seems to care about the PHCC, PSI etc...... except us contractors, it is a tough market, they sure have alot of great info, but at a pricey cost ! Just my thought !


Lots of guys are making significant profits under PSI and others not so much. Similarly, lots of guys are making significant profits under Time and Material and others, not so much. What makes PSI work for a lot of contractors is that it's a business model that teaches trades guys how to run a business profitably, that's pretty much it. There's value in it if you stick to the model religiously - you will make money. Even in a recessed economy, you will make money.

At my shop, we have over 370 service calls that come in each month and our call takers have a 90% call conversion ratio - they're able to book 9 of 10 calls and we charge an $89 evaluation fee - we won't send a tech to someone's house unless they agree to it.

It just works for a lot of guys.


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## SlickRick

BooBerry said:


> Lots of guys are making significant profits under PSI and others not so much. Similarly, lots of guys are making significant profits under Time and Material and others, not so much. What makes PSI work for a lot of contractors is that it's a business model that teaches trades guys how to run a business profitably, that's pretty much it. There's value in it if you stick to the model religiously - you will make money. Even in a recessed economy, you will make money.
> 
> At my shop, we have over 370 service calls that come in each month and our call takers have a 90% call conversion ratio - they're able to book 9 of 10 calls and we charge an $89 evaluation fee - we won't send a tech to someone's house unless they agree to it.
> 
> It just works for a lot of guys.


*Hello! Introduction Requested* 
An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/.

The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession)

Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field.

This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is.

We look forward to your valuable input.


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## stillaround

BooBerry said:


> Lots of guys are making significant profits under PSI and others not so much. Similarly, lots of guys are making significant profits under Time and Material and others, not so much. What makes PSI work for a lot of contractors is that it's a business model that teaches trades guys how to run a business profitably, that's pretty much it. *There's value in it if you stick to the model religiously - you will make money. Even in a recessed economy, you will make money.*
> 
> At my shop, we have over 370 service calls that come in each month and our call takers have a 90% call conversion ratio - they're able to book 9 of 10 calls and we charge an $89 evaluation fee - we won't send a tech to someone's house unless they agree to it.
> 
> It just works for a lot of guys.


 You may believe that to be true....but its not. Follow Jim Abrams phoenix and in 36 mo. be a millionaire...not so. Charge even the 150 invoice in some counties and you will be with only a handful of customers....fan out your radius to hook some more and you will fall by the temptation of screwing people somehow and then justify it with some clever comment and a success story about some guy who did 5 million in plumbing in a rural area.......
I know successful hvac contractors who fan a big radius and are doing well as far as income..not reputation.....Ive gone behind successful PSI plumbers who had subsituted a high dollar sales pitch for real know how....
It works for some in some areas...dont pour me any more kool-aid though.
The real secret to success escapes PSI and is not measured by gross revenue.


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## plbgbiz

stillaround said:


> ...The real secret to success escapes PSI and is not measured by gross revenue.


You can be sure that I am all about increasing sales in my company. I have weekly training sessions with my plumbers and apprenti on sales. But it *ABSOLUTELY MUST* be balanced with results. The sales also have to be for relevant needs and wants of the customer. And of course of you ignore your local market conditions, you may be in real trouble.

Then when the sale is made, you better be able to keep the high and lofty promises. A sale with no plumbing expertise is worthless. On the flip side of business, plumbing expertise without salesmanship can be just as devastating. It doesn't matter which way you tip the scale, if the business does not balance the sales effort with the technical effort, then you're already in bankruptcy, you just don't have a court date yet.

There are great benefits to the PSI models but they do tend to shrug off the technical side of the business and blatantly turn their nose up at the local market conditions.

There are (in my never-to-be-humble-opinion) much more cost effective ways to spur a business to the next level (or even the first level). Having a consultant help you with some janitorial work in your business might be more effective and rewarding than buying into a one size fits all system.


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## Plumber pete

as I have posted before, PSI has been a great thing for me. I have never had a comment card from some one who complained about our pricing. What PSI has given me has saved my buisness. You have no clue what you are talking about. There are idiots and abusers in every situation but PSI is an honest and straight up way of doing buisness and my customers love it. I know from day to day exactly where my buisness stands. There is no guess work as to if or how much money I am making, and if my buisness will servive into next week. I can offer unpresidented guarentees to my customers because I will be around long enough to fullfill them. I finished this year out with a decent salary and a 9.65% true net proffit. That never happened before I joined PSI last year. There is no magic pill. It takes hard work and dedication but with this plan, we are succeeding and this is just my first year. If you dont like it dont join it . But dont complain when the members are doing better than you. PSI is not for everyone, customers or plumbers. thank you


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## plbgbiz

Plumber pete said:


> ..You have no clue what you are talking about....


Not sure who this is directed at but since mine was the most recent post, I'll simply add...With all due respect, yes I do.

I've had several candid and confidential conversations with current and former PSI contractors. There is a sales and numbers emphasis in their system and PSI is very cookie cutter in its stylings. But of course I am not a PSI member so it is entirely possible they all lied to me. If so, fine. I do however find it interesting that the story was always the same.

I am not trying to insult PSI, call them unethical, or wrong. Just that it APPEARS they have the tendency to become unbalanced. I also stand by my belief that there are more cost effective ways to get it done without subscribing to their system. I meant no disrespect to PSI and certainly none toward you or your success. I am excited for you that PSI was your road to success. But I believe you deserve the bulk of that credit, not the system you chose. :thumbsup:


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## stillaround

Sorry to rain on someones parade ...the all hail and praise to PSI wont fly with me...member 6.5 yrs......know a little more background than the praise poster......that said, it has some good stuff...but if your business has improved..great..mazeltov. But dont say their system is the answer because on this forum there are some people who have seen the darker side. When I hear the glowing report it is a sign of being drunk on the kool-aid and just about every member was to some extent at some time. Some here that are PSI are doing well and will probably continue to do well where they are.....
but if I wanted a plumbing problem fixed or my Hvac fixed at my home or a relatives...I would recommend against a PSI member and look for someone local with a good reputation and fair price...skip the fluff, with the exception of some of the forum members that are PSI that I feel wouldnt gouge.
I love the system...there are some big holes in it. Most of the members were intimidated to go to the 200 and over invoice to keep up with scoreboards etc.....who wins and who loses there. Thats why Ben Franklin wont take over the country...and I'll leave it there for that.

To plumber pete: glad you made the turn...what do you mean by hyundai and lexus...who is who...its a clever saying but there are plumbers on this forum who outplum and outknowledge anyone you know at PSI and if Lexus means sales talk and image only and not quality under the hood then the lexus is a rip..no matter who drives it..sure charge enough, take control, improve the image, go with confidence..thats not owned by any elite group of donors ....


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## Richard Hilliard

Ken I read with interest the words you have stated concerning the less knowledgeable plumbers with PSI. I would agree with you that it is bad business to have these type plumbers on board however I cannot agree with the assumption that it is PSI ,franchise or flat rate company that employees the less knowledgeable plumber. They are located in all different plumbing companies both flat rate and time and material. Personally I feel there is more monkey see monkey do plumbers working in our profession then there should be. I see less discovering why a product failed, why a drain stopped up, how to prevent this from happening in the future. The reason for this failed hiring practice, we need more bodies in our profession.

I coach the plumbers on discovering what, why, and how it happened first prior to teaching sales. Once I know those three things I now can give the client solutions to make the problem a thing of the past. Selling just to sell without knowing what happened, why it happened, how to prevent it from happening again will only give the client the same results spending more money. Using drain cleaning as an example here in Florida the first thing the majority of plumbers do is ;set the ladder up , jump on the roof to run cable down a vent and push the stoppage into the main, then collect money and leave, see you in a year. Nothing good happens in this scenario. 

I do think with PSI, Nexstar and other sales organizations the company must have an all in idea or there is doubt. Doubt is the number one reason for failure. I do not think any company can only go half in when they join an organization. I can be successful when I am 100% behind my ideas and concepts. Anything less will give into second guessing that leads to a company that is never totally committed and always changing policy. I do like PSI and most of their business model however I am not all in with their business ideas especially with sales training and who to hire and who to fire. I do believe I need sales technicians and I need technicians who can install. Not every person wants to sell or has the mental capacity to sell.

I am all in with the way the office should be structured and how to answer the phones and book a call. I am not all in with each item being priced based on a 4 hour work day. I believe true additional sales should be at a much lower rate that is more reflective of actual time to do the task then if it was done by itself on another day.

I do believe that each company out there will discover it is necessary at this time to gain additional sales and drive the company forward. Effective communication must be taught and implemented. We are more than just a plumber. Sometimes I am Phil the psychologist, sometimes I am a listener, teacher, consultant and at others times I am just the plumber. The trick is to know when to be the person that is needed and sincere. Too bad these organizations do not teach this aspect to all plumbers whether they are flat rate or time and material.

I say if a person is happy with the way their company is progressing ,great keep up the fantastic work.


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## Plumber pete

I know that PSI is not the cure to world hunger. And I can also toot my own horn and say that if I didnt work the system, I would still be having problems. I also dont go 100% with what I,m told . I have been in buisness for 22 years and I am not ablind sheep and I am not drinking any cool aide. That being said, the things that I do choose to impliment,are great tools for a buisness to use. I was all new construction untill the market crashed. I had 8 trucks and 15 guys and was very successful . I decided to get into servicefor more buisness security I have a huge service background so it was an easy decision. I began researching what I wanted to be when I grew up so to speak and when I defined that , then I found out how to do it. I found that PSI had exactly what I was looking for and decided not to drink kool aide but to invest in a viable buisness plan that specialized in exactly what I wanted. The lexus to hyunda referance is from a comment a customer said to me. Basically saying you get what you pay for. In my area it is amaizing how many people call themselves plumbers but have no insurance, license, training, or just basic ethics. My customers have found it "refreshing to deal with a plumbing company who behaves and conducts themselves in a professional manner. This isn,t cheap. I had an x employee go around and solicit some of my customers recently and after dealing with him, they came back to me. One case in particular the x charged 3 times what I would have charged for the same work done according to my PSI pricing guide. Of course when it leaked, he was no where to be found. Maybe I sound frustrated but, I see people both on this forum and in other places, complaining of the evil PSI when I feel that a bunch of them really dont have all the details. I was one of them when the first PSI member opened shop here. I didn,t understand and I griped and complaained and when I really looked into it I got it. Again PSI isnt for every plumber or home owner. But the good certainly out ways the bad and if it doesnt work for anyone else, its working for me. I also meant no disrespect to anyone on the forum and wish all plumbing professionals great success this coming year. pete


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## stillaround

To Richard 
Well Richard, I dont exercise the level of motivated effort at as many levels as you seem to....might be spinning wheels here a bit...but I can appreciate much of it...
Ive stated before maybe not convincingly the things I liked about PSI and was even willing to endure it longer but it was a bad value finally...I enjoyed the seminars, the people, the system mentality, the mini vacations etc.....

after the BF and PSI split-up the quality of speakers dropped, the fresh inspired ideas dropped, the cutting edge was reserved for BF, I missed some of the guys and felt like leftovers while someone was trying to cram a $5000 management system by J. Abrams down my throat...for what..a feather in their cap...I became meatloaf to them. 
Where was the demographic analysis, what was the original intent other than to get Ben Franklin franchises and go public. They had a severe turnover in support staff..hid the percentage cut they kept in every vendor presence.....when it was new there was sincere help and concern...after a while nothing but internet crap, extra money for webinars after all you are spending.....and unless you get on board and push the sfpricing at 150.00/hr min they have their excuse to ignore/abandon/care less.....and call you bad seed if it doesnt work in your area....all covered by an untruth about someone doing astronomical plumbing revenues in a rural area.
Mike Diamond never went 10 step pricing and as riveting as it is to hear someone plan a strategy in business that divides and conquers with laser precision even the man hisself J.Abrams didnt accomplish his goal. There was a bit of disingenuousness in the upper mngmt. of Clockwork....their montra...we are *all* about making money. 
There is more useful info on this forum..and Ive been both places.

To Pete
I remember Larry Gem with tears and emotion telling a short testimony on my profit day and how their company trashed a $180000 software purchase to go successware (this is what I mean about kool aid ).....yes they were a 14million company that went to 30 million with some help of Abrams and co. and I remember Leonard Gem warning me quietly about the breakup...thats when they left. They didnt need to be anyones leftovers and didnt need a franchise name to propel their business. 
Originally PSI was a 3 year graduation...that evolved ( hmmm).....then came the esi and rsi in hopes of a one button home services network and more revenue.
Remember this, plumbing companies dont make it big big until they become or buy hvac companies.....
Hope you learn and do well...keep extra copies of everything you use and have in case you quit...they want it all back.


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## Richard Hilliard

*Is plumbers success international worth the cost*

Ken believe it or not I agree with you. I am more motivated than a vast majority of people. I became bored and needed more challenges to my daily routine and I was lucky enough to have met some people who challenged me to do more and get better at both my professional and personal life. 
It took me two years to talk the owners into getting out of the organization. I was having bilateral hip replacement when our company joined this group and I was not available to research this group. Finally able to talk the owners into moving into a different direction we jumped ship and out of this organization. What allowed me to talk the owners into moving into a different direction, the same things I have stated for years was recently backed up by this organization. Prior to that the only direction the company received was your prices are too low. Not one time did they send someone to see how our organization ran daily business? Our office and daily’s were never addressed; our extremely high overhead was not addressed nor was suggestions to bring things under control addressed. I was able to show money spent and still no difference with our ability. To PSI’s defense it is all about numbers and in the end it was numbers that showed that we must go in a different direction.

It is a slow process however the changes have been beneficial. We are now into this century using the internet and texting to get our message across to our existing clients. Everything used to be geared to getting new clients instead of staying in front of existing clients that have supplied companies with the best practice of surviving. It seems wise to present coupons, newsletters, fliers and information to those who have spent money with you instead of always trying to get new customers. It costs on average 450 dollars to get a new client and it costs less than 100 dollars to stay in front of existing clients who give us 80% of our business. I have never seen this being pushed with any sales organization.

If these organizations would really help the companies and visit the business every now and again to really help with their growth I would be 100% behind the sales organizations. You join spend the money, learn at a few seminars. Then it is up to you to figure out what you do not know or understand and call for help at that time. That is not why people join sales organizations. You join these organizations to help you with what you do not know and understand and this means hands on help. I am fortunate that I have a ton of resources available to me and they are willing to help and answer questions for me. 

I do not find fault with those who join and are being successful. I say kudos to them and keep on keeping on.


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## Plumber pete

Thats wierd....nobody ever told me to be a hvac company.I dont realy have any interest in doing that but,The other PSI dude in my area who is a mega company is also hvac. I never thought of that. Well I,ve said before , Im not drinking cool aide but it is working for me. I applaude anyone who is not opnly successful in this economy but anyone who has servived. Obviosly , plumbers were successfil long before PSI so I know they are not the answere to the world. I had a few :buisness coaches: and financial gooroos talk to me prior to PSI and all those people charge through the nose. It works for me and several people I know and have recently met. I even have a long time member and his wife coming to my shop on wednesday to work with us. He works with me closely to see that I achieve all my goals for my buisness and my family. good luck to all my fellow professionals


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## Plumber pete

P.S. anybody know how I can get into the HVAC bidness?


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## briansnorthstar

Looks like Im a little late to the party but Im going to put in my 2 cents worth.
I have worked for both types of companies, that belonged to PSI and those that do not.
PSI does have some very good ideas not the least of which is using flat rate to charge an amount that is profitable. That said one of the PSI companies I worked for was staffed with a lot of people that were trained in house for about 30 days then turned loose on the public. Their motive was simply to have as many people out in vans as possible so as not to miss a single call. If you owned a van and had some tools you too could be a plumber in as little as 30 days. SELL SELL SELL and quality be dammed. More than a few of these "plumbers" would do what ever it to to make a "sale" as they were paid on a comission basis. They would brag about doing things such as turning down the shut off valves on a flushometer and telling the customer it was worn out and that is why the toilet clogged and the entire flushometer needed to be replaced. Oh and since the others are the same age you realy should replace those also but Ill give you a deal, only $650.00 per toilet. Another company charged rates that would make a high dollar call girl blush. Auger a toilet? Total cost with dispatch fee $289.00 Thats right $289.00. Now Im all for making a profit but this is RAPE!! While I am sure there are some PSI outfits that are well staffed and charge a reasonable rate I have yet to find one


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## Tommy plumber

briansnorthstar said:


> Looks like Im a little late to the party but Im going to put in my 2 cents worth.
> I have worked for both types of companies, that belonged to PSI and those that do not.
> PSI does have some very good ideas not the least of which is using flat rate to charge an amount that is profitable. That said one of the PSI companies I worked for was staffed with a lot of people that were trained in house for about 30 days then turned loose on the public. Their motive was simply to have as many people out in vans as possible so as not to miss a single call. If you owned a van and had some tools you too could be a plumber in as little as 30 days. SELL SELL SELL and quality be dammed. More than a few of these "plumbers" would do what ever it to to make a "sale" as they were paid on a comission basis. They would brag about doing things such as turning down the shut off valves on a flushometer and telling the customer it was worn out and that is why the toilet clogged and the entire flushometer needed to be replaced. Oh and since the others are the same age you realy should replace those also but Ill give you a deal, only $650.00 per toilet. Another company charged rates that would make a high dollar call girl blush. Auger a toilet? Total cost with dispatch fee $289.00 Thats right $289.00. Now Im all for making a profit but this is RAPE!! While I am sure there are some PSI outfits that are well staffed and charge a reasonable rate I have yet to find one


 





Wow, $ 289.00 to auger a W/C, that is high.


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## RealLivePlumber

Not if it's 100 miles from the shop:laughing:


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## Plumber pete

wow...289 to auger a toilet. that is rape. Some people take advantage of other people. We dont as a psi member and didnt before psi. My men are very well trained, paid by the hour and answere to me for any misconduct or customer abuse. psi doesn,t build crooks. People do that on there own


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## vinpadalino

I just had a good laugh reading the reviews on George brazil and diamond! What ever happened to them?
I'm sure they had tons of people that loved there service!


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## stillaround

Plumber pete said:


> wow...289 to auger a toilet. that is rape. Some people take advantage of other people. We dont as a psi member and didnt before psi. My men are very well trained, paid by the hour and answere to me for any misconduct or customer abuse. *psi doesn,t build* *crooks*. People do that on there own


 No, maybe not, but they didnt police their own either.


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## stillaround

vinpadalino said:


> I just had a good laugh reading the reviews on George brazil and diamond! What ever happened to them?
> I'm sure they had tons of people that loved there service!


Mike Diamond is still doing biz...he has another business ( vetinary or something) and left the running of his plmg biz to his right hand man James. At least that was the status 3+ yrs ago....Mike seemed more temperate than Terry Nicholson....he would allow a new man to stay if he did a min of $600/day...assuming they had the calls. Terry was strictly sales...and thats the difference, and why things were allowed to get unbalanced...Terry Nicholson.
But, they were running At500 also and sales is a much more impt. ingredient there. One of the problems I see is trying to turn the service inordinately into sales, sales, sales.....doesnt fit as well in plumbing.


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## sikxsevn

Sitting through a PSI sales training session right now. We're going over how to incorporate scare tactics in your sales pitch *rollseyes*


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## Richard Hilliard

sikxsevn said:


> Sitting through a PSI sales training session right now. We're going over how to incorporate scare tactics in your sales pitch *rollseyes*


 
is it with a plumbing owner from Washington DC?


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## sikxsevn

Richard Hilliard said:


> is it with a plumbing owner from Washington DC?


Why yes, yes it is

The particular class I believe was "advanced sales training" which most of the points and strategies seem very pushy and pitchy, and a lot of the examples in the book we were given reek of scare tactics

I will say this though, for those of you using the 3 option close, try listing the options in order by price from high to low, offering the most expensive option first, followed by the less expensive options. The higher number of the first option makes the other two that much cheaper by comparison


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## Richard Hilliard

LMAO do you want to wait until then or take care of it now? I dislike that garbage.


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## breid1903

*sik*

if you are really in class well PAY ATTENTION YOU MIGHT LEARN SOMETHING. then again maybe not. lol. breid.....................:rockon:


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## Herk

A thought occurs to me. If companies like PSI are supposed to teach you how to run a successful business, why do you have to keep paying them month by month year after year? Did you not get it in 1? 

I mean, after you're pulling in a couple of thousand dollars per day per van, how much more do you need to learn? When will you be satisfied?

To me, it almost sounds like obsessive/compulsive behavior to continue with them beyond, say, two years at most.


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## Cotton06

I was a member for awhile then realized I was spending money for the things I already knew.


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## Phat Cat

Herk said:


> A thought occurs to me. If companies like PSI are supposed to teach you how to run a successful business, why do you have to keep paying them month by month year after year? Did you not get it in 1?
> 
> I mean, after you're pulling in a couple of thousand dollars per day per van, how much more do you need to learn? When will you be satisfied?
> 
> To me, it almost sounds like obsessive/compulsive behavior to continue with them beyond, say, two years at most.


I had the same thought. Apparently some must be fully immersed in PSI to carry out the business plan.

Business cycles and the markets change. Perhaps their members would not evolve and fight changing when market conditions dictate such. :whistling2:

In all honesty though, I am glad they are around. PSI and franchises are the ones responsible for elevating the value of professional plumbing. We all benefit financially when the PSI Plumbers survive and the hacks go under.


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## cityplumbing

Plumber said:


> PSI is Mike Diamond's baby. Mike has done more for our industry than any man has ever done. His shops are the ultimate in absolutely everything. His pricing methods are beyond compare...literally. I read his column first thing every month.
> 
> Where would I be able to read his column?


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## The real E.P.

I find it funny how the majority of the pro psi heavy supporters only posts in PZ are on this topic and this topic only.... Weird isn't it


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## JK949

cityplumbing said:


> Plumber said:
> 
> 
> 
> His shops are the ultimate in absolutely everything. His pricing methods are beyond compare...literally. I read his column first thing every month.
> 
> Where would I be able to read his column?
> 
> 
> 
> Not from what I've seen. One day I'm at a job, upstairs toilet stoppage. Pull toilet find line full of water. Mike Duamond van down the street has same problem. He asks me what I'm going to do, haul my mainline machine up there and clear it, what else. He has a caged reel Gorlitz GO68 that won't fit and a 3/8" little guy to work with.
> 
> I finished, billed n left, don't know how he did.
Click to expand...


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## damnplumber

*I went to that seminar*

I left after my free lunch and had many great stories to tell my clients...like "how to take advantage of a customer when in distress" "Give us 24K and we will show you a map of how to put tools and stock in your truck" or "for only $19.95 a month we will give you a preferred customer club card" I worked for one of those super plumbers for one day. When my "trainer and I got a big atta boy for raping a customer that lived in a single wide MH in a poor neighborhood for $600 for a 10 minute rooter job! Maybe I like to sleep at night or I will have to answer to the Big Guy upstairs. But I chose not to sign up. I do like the idea of a legitamate source of information like where we are right here!


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## jimallen

*psi member*

I've been a PSI member for 10 years. The people who dont get it, dont understand business and what your clients want from you. If you think being cheaper then the next guy makes you money, you need basic math skills, or a calculator. I've been challenged with the same opinions on this form. Funny thing is everyone who challenges PSI's techniques and tools with me, never have a solid business. Its not rocket science. If your smarter than MIke Dimond , than put your money where your mouth is. Why is he the largest service company and you aren't. Its always the guys who have no clue, who always wants to tell you how to run your business. Because of PSI i was voted buseness of the year, have happy coworkers, who have money to enjoy life, and a huge clientel list. Stop being one of the 99% and become a 1%er. Remember, misery loves, other broke companies. Sorry to be so forward, just hate to see other people holding others back, because of thier own fears of success.


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## rjbphd

jimallen said:


> I've been a PSI member for 10 years. The people who dont get it, dont understand business and what your clients want from you. If you think being cheaper then the next guy makes you money, you need basic math skills, or a calculator. I've been challenged with the same opinions on this form. Funny thing is everyone who challenges PSI's techniques and tools with me, never have a solid business. Its not rocket science. If your smarter than MIke Dimond , than put your money where your mouth is. Why is he the largest service company and you aren't. Its always the guys who have no clue, who always wants to tell you how to run your business. Because of PSI i was voted buseness of the year, have happy coworkers, who have money to enjoy life, and a huge clientel list. Stop being one of the 99% and become a 1%er. Remember, misery loves, other broke companies. Sorry to be so forward, just hate to see other people holding others back, because of thier own fears of success.


With all that gooby wordings here, he can't read this site rules..


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## plbgbiz

rjbphd said:


> With all that gooby wordings here, he can't read this site rules..


Apparently he hasn't read many of the posts either. :laughing:


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## plbgbiz

Go ahead Mr. Allen, explain to us lowly ones how the only profit is PSI profit.


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## stillaround

Its simple math....45,000 out of 70,000 in any given area who cant really afford $90/hr have never really thought about red carpet, straight forward pricing and club membership benefits at $175/hr and up......once they see how professional and business saavy a plumber you are they will figure out a way to get the money and beat down your door....there are so many examples.....and if you really have the desire burning in your gut, just jump into a Ben Franklin franchise and be part of the plumbing franchise that will someday show how wrong everybody else has been...keep waiting, its coming.


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## HSI

He may be Mike Diamonds son. Oh wait that may be impossible. Lol


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## vinpadalino

If you want to charge like Mike diamond make sure you have good lawyers and heavy trash talking from people. I'm sure they have to charge that much do to the size of there company.


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## stillaround

stillaround said:


> Its simple math....45,000 out of 70,000 in any given area who cant really afford $90/hr have never really thought about red carpet, straight forward pricing and club membership benefits at $175/hr and up......once they see how professional and business saavy a plumber you are they will figure out a way to get the money and beat down your door....there are so many examples.....and if you really have the desire burning in your gut, just jump into a Ben Franklin franchise and be part of the plumbing franchise that will someday show how wrong everybody else has been...keep waiting, its coming.


 edit:whistling2:...I hope the sarcasm was realized


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## plbgbiz

stillaround said:


> edit:whistling2:...I hope the sarcasm was realized


...


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## MTDUNN

They came and went here. Or I should say bought out


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## victoryplbaz

Most of their information is on line for free if you look hard enough. I was approach by them and Benny...met with the Benny franchise here. I already didn't care for them and now I have no respect for them. They allowed me to see behind he curtain so to speak. The great Oz isn't as great as he thinks. So save the money and search it out on the internet and weigh it out if you like it or not. Oh and my territory....was the Indian reservation here south of chandler. They tried to tell me there was 1 million homes there.. I had to explain to them what it was and there was no million homes there. For the low low cost of 80k I could retire in 5 yrs!!!


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## HSI

victoryplbaz said:


> Most of their information is on line for free if you look hard enough. I was approach by them and Benny...met with the Benny franchise here. I already didn't care for them and now I have no respect for them. They allowed me to see behind he curtain so to speak. The great Oz isn't as great as he thinks. So save the money and search it out on the internet and weigh it out if you like it or not. Oh and my territory....was the Indian reservation here south of chandler. They tried to tell me there was 1 million homes there.. I had to explain to them what it was and there was no million homes there. For the low low cost of 80k I could retire in 5 yrs!!!


And if your working on the Res no way to cover yourself for non payment


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## victoryplbaz

HSI said:


> And if your working on the Res no way to cover yourself for non payment



Learned that the hard way few years ago. Lost 2k because one of our guys pushed me to let him do work for a lady... She never paid and nothing I could do


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

*Read*



jimallen said:


> I've been a PSI member for 10 years.
> 
> success.




Do you realize that many of us have successful plumbing companies without paying a large cost to another to provide what you call comfort in profit.


The model in business isn't about plumbing. It's about marketing your product, delivering on that promise, guaranteed to be that product after the sale. 

Customer service starts before the phone calls roll into the office. 


What you should be saying in theory is that "Every plumber that wants to afford a heavy 1/3rd of their income can be a part of PSI, continue to feed the inward spiral of information that anyone can clearly determine is the same wheel of knowledge for business 101. 

Whether toothpicks or pencils, carpet or tile, concrete or asphalt, it's literally the same mentality of effective salesmanship. 

But you've done a great job sticking up for the entity that has given you what you didn't bring to the table for your customers. 

It's great being in the 99% because I'm not forced to write checks to anyone else.


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