# how mayn folks keep good records of work completed..???



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

we have quickbooks and since 1998 I have only posted
the name, address, telephone# , check # and amount of the bill......never a blow by blow account as to what we did on the property

Monday, I get a lady who gets all huffey with me on the phone and expected me to recite her model # and serial # off a leaking bradford white water heater I installed back in 2010.....:blink: 

I politely tell her that I am about 40 miles away from my computor driveing out to a call and cannot help her, but if she would get up ( off her fat ass) and go down the stairs I could show her where to lo ok on the heater for the information... as to the size of the unit..

Then I could order the heater and come out on Tuesday and install the new unit.. She just cant understand why I dont keep that information and still is all nasty about this... I simply tell her that we dont have a full time secretary to do all this mundane paperwork......

I set up a verbal appointment with her for tuesday morning to deal with the heater.... I was supposed to call her back that evening for the information and her address , but due to a kids basketball game I had to attend I simply forgot to do this...

So, I call her twice on tuesday morning and only get a machine...
and have not heard back from her yet..... 

I Probably will call her later today but I think she
is one customer that I would rather not deal with again...



so am I right , wrong, or just lazy????


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Keeping records is not a bad idea. However, in this case, your customer is off base. If she calls again and uses the same tone, ask her what she thinks her chances of a positive response would be if she copped a similar attitude to customer service at (name the big retailer of your choice).


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Plumbus said:


> Keeping records is not a bad idea. However, in this case, your customer is off base. If she calls again and uses the same tone, ask her what she thinks her chances of a positive response would be if she copped a similar attitude to customer service at (name the big retailer of your choice).


 
perhaps I should keep better records, it is on paper... 
 this lady is the first person since "forever" that adamantly refused to " help me help her" and that set the tone for the whole conversation.... 

of course there could be other reasons for her crappy atitude. Maybe she is handicapped, or has broken a leg or some other medical issues that she did not make me aware of during our comversation while I was driveing...

if you dont want to "help me help you," its probably more of a mental issue:whistling2:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Mark, you're lazy. Here's why, it only takes a few extra moments to write down the make, model and serial number on your invoice. If an appliance has a serial number, it should be on the invoice. How can you disprove or prove that a W/H is or is not your installation without a serial number? She could have had a hack replace the W/H years after you replaced it and you won't have any evidence to show that it isn't your install. CYA {cover your derriere}.

As for the blow by blow account on the invoice, that is a great idea too. Indicate details; master bath, 2nd guest bath, 1-pc white elongated toilet, etc, etc.

Once when I worked for another company I left the serial number of a Badger 5 off my invoice and the manager grilled me for it. I said to him, "I forgot to write it down." His response, "What if we forget to pay you?"....:whistling2:

I even snap a bunch of photos, particularly of re-models and keep them on my computer. I also print out hard copies of some e-mails that I deem pertinent and keep them in a folder with paperwork from my re-models.


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

I don't write the serial # on the invoice.

But I did make the decision when I went into business to go with a "NEAT" scanner for all my paperwork. 

I could look up a customers old invoice on my Quickbooks, then open up my Neat program on my computer and match the invoice # with the receipt for the water heater I bought (in less than 5 minutes). My supply house puts a serial number sticker on the receipt.

Neat is IRS approved. I only keep my paper receipts for one year (I don't even have to do that), before I throw them away.

Just like Quickbooks, make sure you have multiple backups.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

The more information that can be documented the better. The last outfit I was with, all pertinent info went on the invoice, which restroom in the house, make and model of fixtures, serial #s of products. When a customer called 3,4 or 5 years later about a leaky faucet or toilet we knew exactly what was needed to have the required parts. Plus when customers would call saying the tiolet we worked on is leaking we could tell them with confidence we did not work on that particular one. We had a detailed diagram of every septic system we serviced (1,000's &1,000's).
It could at times be a pain, but going to a call at 6 pm or on a Sunday and having pertinent info was worth its weight in gold. Especially if it was a 5' deep tank that needed digging


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

We document every conversation, not to mention job site details. I don't think I have ever installed a WH without documenting the model and serial #'s. 

I don't know that I would go so far as to call you lazy. Lack of planning or not realizing the importance maybe, but not lazy. 

Now after this if you don't do it next week? That would be lazy. :laughing:


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

Keep all model and serial numbers of water heaters, softeners and similar equipment. 

Don't keep for faucets, sinks, toilets, etc... 

Keep good notes on jobs, but nothing is ever good enough and whole books could be written. 

Have learned the balancing act of what to record and not. Used to argue with the boss about what needed to be written and what didn't. I think he just wanted to fight with someone and used that for a reason. :laughing:

It is important to know what you do and what you don't do. The line items on our invoices have a sentence or two describing what was done. 

1. Description of problem. 

2. What was done and charges.

3. Notes or recommendations. Warranties, future concerns, what not liable for, etc...


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## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

Have you ever noticed that most water heater boxes have spare stickers on them noting the model and serial #'s that you can peel off and apply to your invoice? Usually there's a handful of them so the wholesaler has access too. Bradford white does this for sure. I'll also usually take before and after pictures and one of the rating plate, but I've not yet been linking them to invoice numbers, which I really should.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Our shop is mostly pipefitters, and my boss started the practice of a bid folder holds all the info used to make a bid. If we get awarded the job, all the info is copied, and a job folder is started. The bid folder stays in the office and the job folder goes with the foreman. Before he starts the job, he orders out material, gets lead times, etc. Every day, the hours used and work performed gets written down and goes in the folder. all supply house invoices go into the folder, not on the dashboard or floor of the truck. If it's a plumbing job, the supply house makes up spec books. When the job is over, if we ever need to, we can pull the folder and we know exactly what was done, who ran the job, who worked on it, the material, the fixtures, the as-builts, everything. It was hard to get everybody on board, but I have noticed that my boss has weeded out all the guys who don't/can't keep track.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

During an ambitious phase I created this form to keep track of jobs on which multiple employees contributed. Kind of like a patient chart. I confess I never instituted it's use. Some day.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

We try to write down every day how much pipe or fixtures we installed. When the job is over our boss then can compare reality with what he bid. This has helped him really dial in his bidding factors and be very competitive. It's working because our company just made it thru it's 6th full year, and it was our best year yet.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

CaberTosser said:


> Have you ever noticed that most water heater boxes have spare stickers on them noting the model and serial #'s that you can peel off and apply to your invoice? Usually there's a handful of them so the wholesaler has access too. Bradford white does this for sure. I'll also usually take before and after pictures and one of the rating plate, but I've not yet been linking them to invoice numbers, which I really should.


 
yes, I do use the stickers off the box and usually plaster them to our paper invoice... that is a pretty easy thing to do and we have done this for decades....

this is a paper invoice of course , 

so if you ask me to look that information up
then I will have to go back through my paper records to find it......and that is something I am not gonna do for just anybody.....
'
perhaps I should type in on quick books the ser# and model # if for no other reason in case we get stiffed on a water heater and need to kill and void their warranty..

considering this is the first time I have had someone be so difficult and feistey in over 35 years, I dont think I am gonna change my lazy ways just yet....


we have bought out a number of de-funct plumbing companies in town
over the past 5 years and have gotten some irate customers calling us wanting 
a warranty on their 5 year old heaters , or call screaming about a flood caused by
the last plumber not installing the heater into a catch pan...... 

I just tell them to show me the invoice where I was there back in 2007 



I am sure there is some sort of automatic scanner available that
I could literallly pass every paper invoice through and it would make
a file on computor with that info..... 



so who knows what kind of equipment for my office I need to buy
to do this paper invoice fileing on computor????


more minutia to deal with

*mi·nu·tia*

_noun_ \mə-ˈnü-sh(ē-)ə, mī-, -ˈnyü-\
_plural_*mi·nu·ti·ae*\-shē-ˌē, -ˌī\
*Definition of MINUTIA*

*:* a minute or minor detail —usually used in plural 

Latin _minutiae_ trifles, details, from plural of _minutia_ smallness, from _minutus_


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

422 plumber said:


> We try to write down every day how much pipe or fixtures we installed. When the job is over our boss then can compare reality with what he bid. This has helped him really dial in his bidding factors and be very competitive. It's working because our company just made it thru it's 6th full year, and it was our best year yet.


Job tracking, though a time consuming pita, really helps the estimator (and the bottom line).


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Our foremen are expected to take a half hour every day to stay on top of things. Our boss actually has hard bound 6 month job journals for the foremen. These have 2 pages per day, very detailed, including weather, deliveries, subs, etc. Our fitters work in mostly industrial environments, including nuclear. There are always delays, so if you want to be paid, you need to document that the hold ups were caused by the plant, or security wouldn't let a delivery in, etc. If you can document it, they will pay you. If not, they hold you to the contract number. Last year, we had 4 separate jobs at one nuke, worth about 300k, run over into about 700k. The money was all in having to pay fitters to sit around and twiddle thumbs because of various delays caused by the plant. The gf was so harassed and busy, trying to get all the jobs going, he didn't document the delays, and didn't think to have the crew foremen do it. We almost lost our azz. Thankfully, they were able to reconstruct most of the events and submit them to the utility, and we got paid. Now, this guy is a detail freak.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

In the early 2000's my welder and I sat at Salem #2 (Nuke) for 5 weeks reading magazines before we were processed in, all the while being paid. We only got to work one week. We found out later he (welder) was on a no fly list and I was a psychiatric risk. It took five weeks for them to find out I wasn't crazy and he wasn't a terrorist. Needless to say the government screw up cost me and him thousands in the future because the contractor would'nt hire us back for future shut downs. Nukes have to be a contractors nightmare in some cases anyway.


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> considering this is the first time I have had someone be so difficult and feistey in over 35 years, I dont think I am gonna change my lazy ways just yet....


You make a valid point! 
Yet, you asked.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

6th Density said:


> You make a valid point!
> Yet, you asked.


 

well, if you dont ask....
then you never learn anything
or find better ways to run the big show...


I am still aksing if anyone uses or knows what kind of tools they have to just scan copy every 
invoice to a computor file for faster record keeping...

are theyir any good ones available??


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> well, if you dont ask....
> then you never learn anything
> or find better ways to run the big show...
> 
> ...


I already told you that on page 1
Neat!!!

http://www.neat.com/


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

6th Density said:


> I already told you that on page 1 Neat!!! http://www.neat.com/


 I AGREE !! Neat is fantastic ! 

Not to act like I've always done this because ,,, only had the ipad for a year however ; 

On Invoice2go , I'll take a pic of the installation & the tag ,then attach both pics to the paid invoice , hit save and no longer worry  

Old paper invoices go through Neat Desk ,,,,, then shredder ,,, GGRRRRRRRR !


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

I own a Neat Desk unit

http://www.neat.com/products/neatdesk


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

6th Density said:


> I own a Neat Desk unit
> 
> http://www.neat.com/products/neatdesk


My wife saw that on tv and said I need one I said its just another gimmicky POS. Looks like I may be investing in one sounds like a good setup.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

6th Density said:


> I already told you that on page 1
> Neat!!!
> 
> http://www.neat.com/


 
thanks, 
 I sort of glossed over you original post...


400 bucks.... I guess its worth it..


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## tims007 (Aug 31, 2013)

i write everything down as to what i did in a customers house down on the invoice , i also put down and estimats for future work that i see , aswell as and recomendations or items that i see such as hey i see a drippy basket strainer but customer dont want it replaced and i am replacing the garbage disposer ..that way they cant pin the leak on me ...all this is written down before any work is done and signatures are gotten before work is done... they get a coppy and i get two coppys ...i keep paper copys sorted by date ...should do it by name ( note to self) and will be getting it all in program asscessible by me anywhere just incase i have to go searching for info....all so you can cover your ass and customers asss sometimes


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

We use Fujitsu ScanSnap. 

Very fast and very heavy duty for high volume.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

In today's sue happy environment, plumbers are rolling the dice if they perform work without a detailed invoice of what was and wasn't done. This paperwork becomes legal documents. That is why my boss buys expensive hardbound job journals. Everyone and their brother gets included in lawsuits now. Even if you refuse service, you should create a document as to why, so you don't get sued over a perceived 'civil rights' violation.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

422 plumber said:


> ...Even if you refuse service, you should create a document as to why, so you don't get sued over a perceived 'civil rights' violation.


We have been named in a claim against a guy that took a job and made mistakes. Customer's attorney tried to nail us for refusing the job to begin with. 

His claim was based on the assumption that our refusal to do the work, resulted in a stressed consumer that made a bad choice in the contractor that screwed up the job. The stupid contractor and stupid consumer settled the case out of court. 

I think my disclosed list of subpoenaed witnesses had something to do with it: 

State Plumbing Inspector 
State Chief Plumbing Inspector 
City Plumbing Inspector 
City Chief Plumbing Inspector 
City Chief Building Inspector 
Member of ICC Code Council 
President/CEO of local BBB office 

I love bringing nukes to a knife fight. :laughing:


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

We do our invoicing on invoices to go. You can take a picture and paste it on the invoice. We take a picture of the rating plate and attach it to the invoice. But you have to be detailed on a invoice. I write down everything and detail all we did. I had a customer try to sue my former employer saying I worked on a toilet I didn't and flooded the house. They pulled up my invoice and read it to the customer. They shut up and nothing was ever said about it or the flood again,


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> We have been named in a claim against a guy that took a job and made mistakes. Customer's attorney tried to nail us for refusing the job to begin with. His claim was based on the assumption that our refusal to do the work, resulted in a stressed consumer that made a bad choice in the contractor that screwed up the job. The stupid contractor and stupid consumer settled the case out of court. I think my disclosed list of subpoenaed witnesses had something to do with it: State Plumbing Inspector State Chief Plumbing Inspector City Plumbing Inspector City Chief Plumbing Inspector City Chief Building Inspector Member of ICC Code Council President/CEO of local BBB office I love bringing nukes to a knife fight. :laughing:


That's when I'd bring a counter suit for harassment, defamation and anything else I could think of. If someone wants to be stupid with me, I can play that game too. When they find they will be fighting a couple hundred thousand dollar counter claim they drop it if they have sense.


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## LEAD INGOT (Jul 15, 2009)

All big ticket items, I.E. Water heaters, faucets, fixtures,I put model, finish, and size if applicable. Example, Delta 520 MPU Chrome. I note what I supplied, and especially what they supplied so I don't get tricked into warrantying their homecheapo faucet. I wouldn't necessarily go the distance on model and serial on a wh. but brand name, size and vent type is helpful down the road. Then I have an invoice marked paid with a check number come argument time. Also I tag it with an acronym for which supply house it came from.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*knife fights cost money too*



plbgbiz said:


> We have been named in a claim against a guy that took a job and made mistakes. Customer's attorney tried to nail us for refusing the job to begin with.
> 
> His claim was based on the assumption that our refusal to do the work, resulted in a stressed consumer that made a bad choice in the contractor that screwed up the job. The stupid contractor and stupid consumer settled the case out of court.
> 
> ...


 
we have bee named in a frivilous lawsuit before too, for something we had installed in a public bathroom 8 years earlier...

I have an umbrella policy and the insurance companies lawyer had to duke it out for me , we finally got our name dismissed from the suit but I dont have a clue what it cost per hour to do the investigation....


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I place the w/h stickers with all the info on our receipts. One on our copy and one on the customers. I try and balance my documentation of the job for what's required to cover me and for future reference. Also any work in a large store has exactly who I spoke to explaining what was done and I have them inspect it. I've had to go back because they were refusing payment saying the job wasn't complete just to get there and find nothing wrong.


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