# I hate plastic pop-ups; and low quality parts



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Did a job today for a customer/friend. She called to see if I would install a sink, faucet, disposal, and lavatory faucet. I was like ok, suspecting that I would have a day of Big Box delight. Let me break it down.
Moen Faucets, ISE Badger 1, Kohler cast iron sink

Moen lavatory faucet(Big Box): Suck 
Lavatory faucet, had a damn plastic pop-up, that I had to try to install. Seemed like it went fine, until I checked it a bit later and there was a drip. Tightened nut, dripped more. Now, I can go back and install a metal one. 
Note: If I would have said it was going to be a problem, would customer think I was up-selling to up-sell? Most likely yes.

Moen Kitchen faucet(Big Box): Sucks, it seems ok, but you can just feel the inferior quality.

ISE Badger 1(Big Box): Predictable install, certainly not an Evolution, but hey its not a waste king.

Kohler Cast Iron sink: Heavy as a car, but went in great. Did I mention it was heavy. 

Unknown sink strainer: Leaked, resealed, and it leaked again. Pulled it and put in Garvin. Will test tomorrow.


Thank goodness, they are friends and live blocks away. Hate to charge for extra time, but I didn't buy the stuff. :no:

Assessment of job: I HATE BIG BOX PLUMBING PRODUCTS!!! With a few exceptions.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Oh, and for the first time in my career, I am getting a container of Plumbers Putty. That silicone was a  to get off of that new sink. 
Dang high quality silicone. :furious:


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

The worst part of those plastic pop ups is the rod that connects the thing you pull out of the faucet and the ones that goes into the drain being plastic. They don't tighten enough because the plastic strips out. Then you go to pull up the rod and it doesn't close the drain. 

Those plastic nuts on the drain don't work well either unless you dope the washer that goes under the sink.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I stock 17 ga. pop up assys in brushed nickel, ORB, and chrome. I will not install a plastic pop up. Been there........

I lay them on the counter, and they always go with mine. 

Except that POS mexican standard, with the speedometer cable. :furious:


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

On pop-ups I always use putty, I dope the rubber washer and threads and almost never have a leak. With pop-ups dope is your friend. I prefer brass but don't mind plastic cause mine never leak.

With basket strainer assemblys 9 out of 10 times I'll refuse to install the customer supplied ones cause they are usually junk. Watts makes one I like alot for under $10. Unlike with pop-ups, I've had problems with crap basket strainers.

SS is they way to go for kitchen sinks IMO. It will outlast any CI sink, scratches are less noticeable and my back likes em better also. Oh one more dislike about CI sinks is if you tip over a glass in a CI sink most of the time it will shatter, less likely with SS. I currently have a Kohler CI sink in my kitchen. Next one will be SS.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

I have seen some plastic pop-up assemblies pull themselves nearly in two. I think it's Delta that has the plastic ones that tighten with one huge nut and I've seen the threads that hold the drain flange pull themselves so thin that you can almost see though them. Total Junk!!







Paul


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Did you ever install a cast iron kitchen sink by yourself, and pinch your boys between the sink and the countertop?

Man that hurts.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Did you ever install a cast iron kitchen sink by yourself, and pinch your boys between the sink and the countertop?
> 
> Man that hurts.


Funny you mention that, I was very well aware of that potential. I had help setting it in place. What one of them weight 200#. If not it sure feels like it, and I guarantee the boys would not fair well under that weight.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

plastic pop ups suck, but i agree if you put alot of teflon tape on the threads and dope after that and only hand tighten like you were a girl, they go in fine. I always offer the brass pop up as an option because i like them way better and the plastic ones only last a few years before they leak anyway. I have overtightened a Price Pfister by hand and split it in two. I have also had strainers that will not seal on the sink and I always toss them and use whatever I have on the truck. I noticed that if a sink basket doesn't have a manufacturers brand name on the box, they tend to leak. I guess they are just as embarrassed about making them as I am to install them.:laughing:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

We always offer the metal pop-ups and if the customer declines, it is clearly written on the invoice that the customer chose to ignore our recommendation and that there is no warranty.

Very few go with the plastic pop-up. If you don't offer it to them and get a callback, they will ask why you didn't tell them that on the first trip. Customers are not just paying you for your time/labor, they are paying you for your expertise. It's not upselling IMO, it's offering them a long term fix.

One trip back for a small drip is more expensive than the cost of the metal pop-up.


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## bartnc37 (Feb 24, 2009)

I've really never had a problem with the plastic pop ups leaking, that said, I dope the living shiot out of them. I also dope where the pop up seat threads on to the body of the assembly. Basically i dope everything on them.:whistling2:
My favorite is when I get called to finish putting in a lav the H.O. couldn't get to stop leaking. Its either they followed the instructions that say don't tighten the nut over hand tight or occasionally they try to put the tubular trap washers in upside down.:thumbup:


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

I use putty on all of my popup installs. Plastic or brass.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Indie said:


> Oh, and for the first time in my career, I am getting a container of Plumbers Putty. That silicone was a  to get off of that new sink.
> Dang high quality silicone. :furious:


It's about time you stepped away from the dark side....:laughing:


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Redwood said:


> It's about time you stepped away from the dark side....:laughing:


I'm gonna have to read the instructions on how to use it. Silicone has worked so well for me in the past, but yes is a royal pain in the rear to clean up, and especially after its been in for awhile.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

To the upsale accusation-

Accuse me of it all you want. I'm not installing a plastic pop up. End of discussion.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Colgar said:


> To the upsale accusation-
> 
> Accuse me of it all you want. I'm not installing a plastic pop up. End of discussion.


Easier said from a position of strength. :yes: 

When you just start up a business, you don't make it a habit of arguing with the few customers you are getting. Also, there was never an accusation, but I was trying to avoid it, preemptively by installing plastic. Lesson learned.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

I installed the new brass pop-up with putty, wow, did it go easy. Why have I waited so long to try putty. I think that is the way I will go when installing new fixtures.


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## john_mccormack (Feb 27, 2010)

*Putty vs Silicone*



Indie said:


> I installed the new brass pop-up with putty, wow, did it go easy. Why have I waited so long to try putty. I think that is the way I will go when installing new fixtures.


In my few years as a plumber I have never seen silicone used on finish plumbing. I'm not saying it's wrong, this forum definitely opened my eyes to it's correct use. I just always saw plumbers in Massachusetts use putty.

I've removed tub shoes that were installed 25 years ago. That putty is still there, keeping that shoe from leaking. It's all dried up, but still doing it's thing.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

If there's a chance that I'll be back to work on it...It won't be getting silicone on it....Too hard to remove...


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I have been using putty in the appropriate amounts since I started in this trade. Never had 1 problem caused by putty, or repaired one caused by putty. I have tried the silicone to see what all the hype is about, and I don't see any advantage, just more trouble to work with IMO. On the Plastic PU's, I haven't had any problems out of them when they are installed properly. I know they feel cheesy, but when I have to use them, No problem.... But then again, I am the greatest.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Never had problems with plastic po's here, maybe I haven't ran across real pieces of crap though (they're all crap IMO) I use pipe dope on the threads as well as putty between the rubber washer and the sink. No problems yet knock on wood.:thumbup: But then again I am the second greatest. :laughing:


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

slickrick said:


> No problem.... But then again, I am the greatest.





Piperat said:


> :thumbup: But then again I am the second greatest. :laughing:



Comments like that can bring on a world of hurt. But, since you the two greatest plumbers, you can probably foresee any problems and avoid them. 

Also, for being the greatest, you two should be posting more, trying to help the lowly masses on here. :w00t: Maybe we need to start a couple of Ask Slick and rat threads.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Indie said:


> Comments like that can bring on a world of hurt. But, since you the two greatest plumbers, you can probably foresee any problems and avoid them.
> 
> Also, for being the greatest, you two should be posting more, trying to help the lowly masses on here. :w00t: Maybe we need to start a couple of Ask Slick and rat threads.


I don't think either one of us are worried, we can handle our own. Piperat is full of info. As for me, I am just full of it. I throw a little info out now and then.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I'd be careful about the dope you use on plastic...:whistling2:

I'm just saying some of it softens plastic...


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Redwood said:


> I'd be careful about the dope you use on plastic...:whistling2:
> 
> I'm just saying some of it softens plastic...


What a relief . . . I thought you were going to claim to be the third greatest plumber, which would have caused a fight with OldSchool.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

PlumbCrazy said:


> What a relief . . . I thought you were going to claim to be the third greatest plumber, which would have caused a fight with OldSchool.


Thats what I was thinking PC...We all know the I am the greatest plumber ever...actually since I original invented plumbing you know.

been getting my royality checks ever since. :laughing:


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Redwood said:


> I'd be careful about the dope you use on plastic...:whistling2:
> 
> I'm just saying some of it softens plastic...


I always use a teflon based dope. I am not aware of any of those having issues with plastic. Do you know of any?


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Yep I have always used the teflon based dope too and have yet to see plastic deteriorate from it.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

slickrick said:


> I have been using putty in the appropriate amounts since I started in this trade. Never had 1 problem caused by putty, or repaired one caused by putty. I have tried the silicone to see what all the hype is about, and I don't see any advantage, just more trouble to work with IMO. On the Plastic PU's, I haven't had any problems out of them when they are installed properly. I know they feel cheesy, but when I have to use them, No problem.... But then again, I am the greatest.


TM, is that you? :laughing:


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Don The Plumber said:


> TM, is that you? :laughing:


As the room clears out...............









Nice knowing ya Don :laughing:


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Having to use the Big Box SHIOT ,, DRIVES ME BATTY !!! however ,, sometimes gotta bend to the customers checkbook . 

Putty has worked for me for decades !


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> What a relief . . . I thought you were going to claim to be the third greatest plumber, which would have caused a fight with OldSchool.


I'll let the others claim and think they are, all they want....

I know I am....:laughing:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Don The Plumber said:


> TM, is that you? :laughing:


 
Yes, I'm bad. And I have the buttons to prove it.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

When I used to do new construction the (2) sinks we generally used were stainless steel or cast iron. When setting trim, I would trim out the s/s sink completlely, then set it in counter. Not so with the cast iron, I'd only install faucet, then put my hands in holes where basket strainers go to lift it in place. (cast iron sinks are too heavy to lift w/ strainers in place). After it was in counter, then I'd install basket strainers. I always used putty around strainers and faucet. I will never use silicone in that application.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

I'm not against using new products; hell, I use pex and sometimes sharkbites.......:laughing: But what I see a lot of on this forum is folks trying to be so specific with products, down to knowing the ionic makeup of said products. I've been doing this for 20 yrs and don't see any reason to re-invent the damn wheel. JMHO. 

Oh and another thing, this does not make me a bad plumber...my call back ratio is damn near zero and my repeat and referral ratio is through the roof...I'm just sayin'


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Choctaw said:


> I'm not against using new products; hell, I use pex and sometimes sharkbites.......:laughing: But what I see a lot of on this forum is folks trying to be so specific with products, down to knowing the ionic makeup of said products. I've been doing this for 20 yrs and don't see any reason to re-invent the damn wheel. JMHO.
> 
> Oh and another thing, this does not make me a bad plumber...my call back ratio is damn near zero and my repeat and referral ratio is through the roof...I'm just sayin'



I feel the SAME way !! :thumbup::thumbup:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Hell, I been at this longer than any of you guys. Here's a picture of some of my early work. You can all bet your asses there was no stinking plastic used there


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Hell, I been at this longer than any of you guys. Here's a picture of some of my early work. You can all bet your asses there was no stinking plastic used there


Hey NH Master...
Remember when we did this project? I think I remember Bill Parr being the foreman on it... 
No plastic there either...:laughing:


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Sheesh you guys are really showing your ages. I'm surprised your arthritic hands can even type out a post. Must have jitterbug keyboards. :laughing:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Dem was the good old days when plumbers were plumbers and a man could be proud of a days work :thumbsup:


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## Plumbducky (Jun 12, 2010)

If you have a hard time cleaning silicone up, spray it with fantastic when you are done tightening it up and it wipes right off. I always use putty on the sink side of lavs and all of the mack washers get a little silicone on them. It works for me and doesn't leak. Just remember that we need to make the customers informed and that they are the ones footing the bill.
Make them happy and you will usually get referals and more work.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Plumbducky said:


> If you have a hard time cleaning silicone up, spray it with fantastic when you are done tightening it up and it wipes right off. I always use putty on the sink side of lavs and all of the mack washers get a little silicone on them. It works for me and doesn't leak. Just remember that we need to make the customers informed and that they are the ones footing the bill.
> Make them happy and you will usually get referals and more work.


Whhhaaaatttt? :whistling2:

You'd glue in one of those crap drains with RTV so I gotta bust my butt taking it out?:furious:

Nice guy thinking about the guy behind you...:whistling2:


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## Plumbducky (Jun 12, 2010)

Yes I would silicone the mack washer, it still comes out. Just need a little elbow grease.


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## suzie (Sep 1, 2010)

Homeowners are drones and have become addicted to box stores. Since you are a new contractor as I am, I will offer you this suggestion. Look at the product the homeowner has purchased, let them know you can provide them with a professional grade item with your one or whatever guarantee. Show how your product is superior. They will take theirs back and will become your loyal customer.


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## suzie (Sep 1, 2010)

Plumbducky said:


> If you have a hard time cleaning silicone up, spray it with fantastic when you are done tightening it up and it wipes right off. I always use putty on the sink side of lavs and all of the mack washers get a little silicone on them. It works for me and doesn't leak. Just remember that we need to make the customers informed and that they are the ones footing the bill.
> Make them happy and you will usually get referals and more work.


 
Windex also works well.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

I don't know the putty was really nice to work with. After years of using and cleaning up silicone, I might take a break. Two putty jobs, and I see no reason to stop.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

suzie said:


> Windex also works well.


It's actually the alchohol that will clean the silicone mess. Hand disinfectant will work too, or even that bottle of rum under the seat:whistling2:


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Indie said:


> I don't know the putty was really nice to work with. After years of using and cleaning up silicone, I might take a break. Two putty jobs, and I see no reason to stop.


The only time I would consider using silicone is with a shower strainer on a 2nd floor. Even then putty will usually work.

Otherwise uneccesary IMO.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

pauliplumber said:


> It's actually the alchohol that will clean the silicone mess. Hand disinfectant will work too, or even that bottle of rum under the seat:whistling2:


What a waste of rum! :yes:


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## ChrisCarsten (Sep 24, 2010)

*Metal, always*

I always use metal, or at least warn the customer they're paying for my time when I come back. Most reasonable people don't mind paying the extra $18.00 for a good, long lasting, solid brass pop up assembly.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

Those Moen Depot faucets are really junk. I've only installed one of the HD Moen kitchens and it immediately plugged solid. I had also replaced the stops on galvanized pipe. I had to go back three times to get the rust out of it.

Inside the faucet there is a European-style cartridge rather than the usual Moen cartridge, and the water has to pass through a set of very tiny holes. These will plug with rust very quickly. I open up the faucet and use canned air to blow the rust back out through the top.

But I quit supplying Moen faucets years ago. I really get tired of fixing the handles on them every time I pass one. Usually, the itty bitty screws are bent because they keep falling out and no one thinks they need tightened. I put up with Moen's bad cartridge installer causing new kitchen faucets to spray the ceiling and their handles falling off into the sink soon after they were installed, but it finally got to the point that I decided they were far too expensive to have so many problems. You see other types of faucets with cartridges far outlasting the spout o-rings. Many cartridges never seem to wear out. Moen do.

The only Moen faucet I still use is the Posi-Temp shower, and even those are getting cheaper all the time.

As to pop-ups, I'm not against plastic. Maybe it's all in the wrist. I don't use dope on plastic unless I have to. And I use putty, unless I'm putting something on a plastic or marble sink top, and then I use 100% silicone. Yes, it is more difficult to get off. What I really hate is the cheap metal lav pop-ups that have the paper-thin tailpieces on them.


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