# Iron pipe woes. What do you use on your threads?



## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

We ran about 200' of 4" black iron pipe with about 60 joints and 14 of them are leaking. Some of the threads are put together with Blue Block and Teflon, some of the others are Blue Block and wicking. It doesn't seem to make a difference which was used. Fittings were tightened with 48" wrenches so they are defiantly made up. Most of the ones we cut only went at best six of the nine threads into the fitting, some went all the way in, others only went three or four. I'm trying to figure out what went wrong here. I have a couple ideas.
Is Blue Block a bad idea on pipes this large? Just a bad idea in general? Last time I did pipe above 2" was a 3" gas line put together with plain old Megaloc. We had one leak on the whole line and it was because of a bad fitting. 
How far should 4" black pipe make up into a fitting? Ideally it should be locked up on the last thread right? I'm thinking that the dies on the Ridgid 141 might be shot or something else on the threader is going wrong. Is their any way to tell when the dies are shot besides physical damage?


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

had that happen with 1-1/2 black pipe. Did an entire house in the attic. Dies were bad.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

You gotta get pretty mean with 48's on 4". That stuff has to be TIGHT. We use tape and permatex teflon dope. Get ALL the cutting fluid off the threads or the pressure will chase the thinned dope out of the thread. The blu-block sucks. Any vibe or joint movement and you've got a leak. 

Remember 3 threads showing when it's tight. No tears in the threads and screw on 2 turns before it gets tight by hand or the dies are wrong. NO OIL RESIDUE after threading. Don't tighten it till you think it's tight. Tighten it till you can't tighten it anymore.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Are you using threaded cast iron (IPS) or threaded black steel pipe? 

There is a huge difference.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Are you using threaded cast iron (IPS) or threaded black steel pipe?
> 
> There is a huge difference.


Never thought of that. I ASSumed blk steel. Also, I don't know what fittings leaked. I'm guessing the ones that went all the way in where merchant couplings?


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## tamor67 (Dec 13, 2008)

teflon tape, pipe dope, 48" pipe wrench with a breaker bar...


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## gladerunner (Jan 24, 2009)

We use GASOLA and usually thats all. I don't know what your piping, but we can't use teflon tape on gas. Check your fittings. We had problems once on a resturant and found out it was bad threads in the fittings that came out of china. Ever since I make sure we buy usa made malable fittings.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

You assumed correctly, it is black steel pipe. We did not thoroughly clean the threads, we just wiped them with a rag. Maybe that's the problem. In the future I'll keep the bottle of Spray Nine and some paper towels handy and see if that helps.
As for tightening them that's what we do, tighten until they won't turn anymore. We started out using 36" wrenches. I went and dug out 48" the next day because I didn't think that was enough. 
I also don't like Blue Block for the exact reason you mentioned. Once it's hardened for a couple hours any movement in that pipe and you have problems. It's so easy to crate more leaks fixing the leaks we have now by not holding back correctly.
These are water lines, not gas. We are not allowed to use teflon tape or wicking on gas lines either. I have heard their is a special tape for gas which is approved but I've never seen it or used it.

edit:
One more thing. How deep do you guys thread 4" pipe? I'll do a thread count today and see exactly what it is. I think we are 15 or so threads deep. If we actually tightened it to three threads left sticking out we would be well inside the fitting and wouldn't that cause pre-mature wear on the pipe? When I said "made up all the way" I meant it made all the way into the fitting which is nine turns. The only ones that made up more than that are the factory cut threads on the nipples and lengths. Most of the ones we are backing out and re-doing now are making up somewhere between five and nine threads.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

If your using a 141 threader it has a start and a stop line on it. I think it might be 12 threads. Your bottoming out in the fitting before the taper hits the fitting much. 2.5" EMT conduit about 5' long makes a good cheater. It's light. Slide it on till it's tight on the tapered part of the wrench. You'll end up with 72" of wrench.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Yup, it has the start and stop lines. I took a look today and it's threaded 15 deep. You are right, while threading it comes out probably nine threads or so passed the dies when it's fifteen threads deep. That is the whole depth of the fitting. Next time I'll try making some adjustments and getting a couple less threads on it. Most likely the problem here is a combination of everything mentioned, threads cut to deep, excess oil, and being under tightened.

We spent the whole day today re-doing it. Now we have nice clean threads and the fittings cranked with a 48" wrench with a 3' cheater bar. I'm nervous about fitting it up on Monday. Someone forgot to hold back and moved a couple fittings sealed with Blue Block two months ago. They're in a horrible spot as well, it would be two days of work to get to that fitting.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Make sure that 141 is set on tapered threads. It will cut both nss and npt. 

I use a can/dauber of clear pvc primer to remove the oil. Then wipe clean with a dry rag. 

Teflon tape makes them go in deeper more easily.

When we run T&C pipe the journeyman I use weighs 300+. That helps more than anything. I tip the scales at about 180. It don't matter how strong you are if ya don't have enough a$$ to crank that wrench

It's been a few years since we ran run much T&C pipe. Used to run t all the time. Then we went to Vic:thumbsup: Now we run 4" sch 10 grooved with oil resistant doughnuts rather than 4" sch 40. A joint of 4" sch 40 is about all 2 guys can handle. Good luck!


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> Make sure that 141 is set on tapered threads. It will cut both nss and npt.
> 
> I use a can/dauber of clear pvc primer to remove the oil. Then wipe clean with a dry rag.
> 
> ...


I didn't know that it could do both threads with the same dies. I'll check that out. That's actually what I ended up using. I tried the Spray Nine and paper towels. That lasted for one thread and I grabbed a can of PVC cleaner.
I've seen the sprinkler fitters using vicaulic. That is some cool stuff, we've never used it though. I don't know if it's even approved for a geothermal system. The architect specified black steel pipe. We tried to get him to use plastic or copper but we wanted black because a fire wouldn't damage it (go figure that logic out).


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Look into getting a set of chain tongs, or even two sets, I have a 5' and a 6' set for doing IPS pipe, I also have three different sizes of compound leverage pipe wrenches that work well when space is limited.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Those are cool and would probably help out a lot but it's not my company and I'm still working on trying to get a new cordless drill, I don't think the boss man is going to spring for those.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

On anything 2-1/2" or larger, I use Super Dope Anaerobic Thread Sealant. 
http://argco.com/store/main.aspx?p=itemdetail&item=1010086
Laco also makes an anaerobic dope. 
http://www.laco.com/productDetail114.aspx
Once we started using it, no more leaks. The trick when using is to clean the threads completely with a solvent, like pvc primer, to remove any oil before applying the dope.


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## kellybhutchings (Jul 29, 2008)

anything over 2 should be welded


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

kellybhutchings said:


> anything over 2 should be welded


That's dead wrong.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I've never done anything that big but on the smaller stuff I go for 3 turns to hand tite or, I'm playing with the adjustment on the dies...

Is it the same on larger stuff?


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Marlin said:


> Those are cool and would probably help out a lot but it's not my company and I'm still working on trying to get a new cordless drill, I don't think the boss man is going to spring for those.


Then you work for a fool.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

No one uses quick wick? >Thats what I used to use on fire systems with black pipe when we didnt use VIC


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Then you work for a fool.


http://www.plumbingzone.com/f7/recirculation-line-expansion-tank-question-2188/

It doesn't make much sense to me either. The man hours lost due to not having the proper tools far exceed the cost of the tools.

I can't really badmouth the guy. He does know volumes more than I do.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

I haven't been by here in a while but we had to do some 3" gas lines this week and had this same problem all over again. That got me thinking of this thread. Anyway the issue is resolved and I figured I'd stop by and tell the kind of embarrassing story. I e-mailed Ridgid to get the manual for the 141 hoping their might be something in there to lend a clue. 

Turns out their was. I didn't know it but the machine can be set for straight or tapered threads and it was set for straight. I always watched that machine cut wondering how the threads were supposed to seal with only the tiny bit of taper on the dies. Now I have my answer, they don't. The guide bar needs to be flipped so the dies open up as the pipe is pushed into them. I never would have guessed that that bottom bar could slide out and be flipped to change the thread type and apparently no one else at the shop knew about it either. 

Now it turns in three turns by hand and locks up. Everything seals up great now with regular wrenches. No more 6' bars on 4' wrenches only to have a leak.


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## DIZ (Nov 17, 2010)

Marlin said:


> I haven't been by here in a while but we had to do some 3" gas lines this week and had this same problem all over again. That got me thinking of this thread. Anyway the issue is resolved and I figured I'd stop by and tell the kind of embarrassing story. I e-mailed Ridgid to get the manual for the 141 hoping their might be something in there to lend a clue.
> 
> Turns out their was. I didn't know it but the machine can be set for straight or tapered threads and it was set for straight. I always watched that machine cut wondering how the threads were supposed to seal with only the tiny bit of taper on the dies. Now I have my answer, they don't. The guide bar needs to be flipped so the dies open up as the pipe is pushed into them. I never would have guessed that that bottom bar could slide out and be flipped to change the thread type and apparently no one else at the shop knew about it either.
> 
> Now it turns in three turns by hand and locks up. Everything seals up great now with regular wrenches. No more 6' bars on 4' wrenches only to have a leak.


more tape more dope, thats way quicker then rethreading it all


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Marlin said:


> I haven't been by here in a while but we had to do some 3" gas lines this week and had this same problem all over again. That got me thinking of this thread. Anyway the issue is resolved and I figured I'd stop by and tell the kind of embarrassing story. I e-mailed Ridgid to get the manual for the 141 hoping their might be something in there to lend a clue.
> 
> Turns out their was. I didn't know it but the machine can be set for straight or tapered threads and it was set for straight. I always watched that machine cut wondering how the threads were supposed to seal with only the tiny bit of taper on the dies. Now I have my answer, they don't. The guide bar needs to be flipped so the dies open up as the pipe is pushed into them. I never would have guessed that that bottom bar could slide out and be flipped to change the thread type and apparently no one else at the shop knew about it either.
> 
> Now it turns in three turns by hand and locks up. Everything seals up great now with regular wrenches. No more 6' bars on 4' wrenches only to have a leak.


 
Dang dude. I suggested you check that in 2009...... Glad you found the problem.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> Dang dude. I suggested you check that in 2009...... Glad you found the problem.


2009 was the last time I used that machine. A few other guys have used it since and they had the same problems. 

I actually remembered you making that suggestion when I was reading the manual. Turns out you were right, I just didn't fully understand your suggestion back then. I assumed like the 300 or 700 die heads I use on a regular basis you have separate dies for NPT and straight threads and that was the only difference. When we changed the dies and they were the correct ones. I didn't realize you had to change a setting on the machine. 

I don't own the company so I'm not the one directly affected by it but it's still really frustrating now. So much time was lost (weeks) between all the jobs that machine has been used for over a simple setting on the machine.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Marlin said:


> ...I didn't know it but the machine can be set for straight or tapered threads and it was set for straight....


Thanks for the follow up Marlin. I've ran 1'000's of feet of 3" with our 141 and never had a problem. I either forgot or never knew it could be set for straight threads. Which ever it is...I feel pretty lucky after reading your post. I need to send you some donuts.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

When all else fails, read the instructions............:whistling2:


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

ILPlumber said:


> Make sure that 141 is set on tapered threads. It will cut both nss and npt.
> 
> I use a can/dauber of clear pvc primer to remove the oil. Then wipe clean with a dry rag.
> 
> ...


I know this post is quite old IL, but just curious what are you guys using sched 10 for? Here the only application is for sprinkler pipe. Everything I touch is 40, 80, or even 160. It is always weird to dee a spronklerfitter walk by with 15' of 6" on his shoulder.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

kellybhutchings said:


> anything over 2 should be welded


This guy has a valid point...

here any gas line over 2" has to be welded....

Always amazed at what other jurisdictions are allowed to do....


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> This guy has a valid point...
> 
> here any gas line over 2" has to be welded....
> 
> Always amazed at what other jurisdictions are allowed to do....


 



The last big commercial job I was on, specified welded natural gas line. We plumbers on that job did not install the gas piping. The pipe fitters did the install due to the welding; I don't have any welding certs and half the pipe fitters on the job didn't even have the certs. 

Our code here states that metallic gas piping joints shall be either: (1) welded (2) brazed (3) threaded or (4) flanged.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Marlin said:


> I haven't been by here in a while but we had to do some 3" gas lines this week and had this same problem all over again. That got me thinking of this thread. Anyway the issue is resolved and I figured I'd stop by and tell the kind of embarrassing story. I e-mailed Ridgid to get the manual for the 141 hoping their might be something in there to lend a clue.
> 
> Turns out their was. I didn't know it but the machine can be set for straight or tapered threads and it was set for straight. I always watched that machine cut wondering how the threads were supposed to seal with only the tiny bit of taper on the dies. Now I have my answer, they don't. The guide bar needs to be flipped so the dies open up as the pipe is pushed into them. I never would have guessed that that bottom bar could slide out and be flipped to change the thread type and apparently no one else at the shop knew about it either.
> 
> Now it turns in three turns by hand and locks up. Everything seals up great now with regular wrenches. No more 6' bars on 4' wrenches only to have a leak.


 



Thanks for update. Where I come from, some one in that shop would be called a 'stu-nod.' Italian for dumb-dumb. The foreman or supervisor would probably be the scapegoat.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> This guy has a valid point...
> 
> here any gas line over 2" has to be welded....
> 
> Always amazed at what other jurisdictions are allowed to do....


I can confirm this. ALL gas piping 2 1/2" or bigger MUST be welded. No exceptions.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> This guy has a valid point...
> 
> here any gas line over 2" has to be welded....
> 
> Always amazed at what other jurisdictions are allowed to do....


Here any gas line over 2" in a school needs to be welded. Anywhere else threaded pipe is good to go. A poor weld can being leaking as easially as a poor threaded joint. I really don't see any need to require gas lines to be welded, am I missing something?



Tommy plumber said:


> Thanks for update. Where I come from, some one in that shop would be called a 'stu-nod.' Italian for dumb-dumb. The foreman or supervisor would probably be the scapegoat.


Hey, I was a year into plumbing when that happend the first time. This is the first time I've used the machine since then and I figured it out. At least I took some sort of initiative to go figure out what was wrong instead of just cutting the pipe out and doing it over again and again hoping that this time it will work like everyone else.

The shop won't send me to school so I'm thinking about going on my own. Their is a lot to learn (like how to use a Ridgid 141) that I'm not going to learn working there. Not that I expect to learn everything at school either, just a little more that I can use to further myself. I know the union has a great school but it's impossible to get in now with the number of union plumbers laid off. So I'm going to go to the next open house at the local technical school and see what it's about and if it's worth going. It's also one more thing on a resume to help me get ahead of the next guy.


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