# Next class action law suit on the way?



## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Yesterday I was talking to a friend and past Supervisor ( very sharp guy) where I worked before going on my own. They were out repiping a million dollar house I plumbed about 5 years ago tops. 
He said this will probably be next thing to the poly class action law suit that had been going on. It's Dezincification process and in a nut shell it removes the zink in fittings with more than 15% zinc. The remaining material is brass and is thus porous and deteriotates the fitting leaving it brittle. This what I had seen when I was yet working there and had started using all polymer fittings with the exception of fip's and sweat adpts. The problem is the brass fittings, the pipe is great. To my understanding the copper pex fittings are still ok. Plenty to be read on the topic. Here is a start for those interested.
http://www.richardmalin.com/Dezincification.html


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Sounds like the water is incompatible with the material (brass).

What do they use for faucets, compression ferrels on supply lines, stops, water heater t/p valves and drain valves in these areas?



mpsllc said:


> Yesterday I was talking to a friend and past Supervisor ( very sharp guy) where I worked before going on my own. They were out repiping a million dollar house I plumbed about 5 years ago tops.
> He said this will probably be next thing to the poly class action law suit that had been going on. It's Dezincification process and in a nut shell it removes the zink in fittings with more than 15% zinc. The remaining material is brass and is thus porous and deteriotates the fitting leaving it brittle. This what I had seen when I was yet working there and had started using all polymer fittings with the exception of fip's and sweat adpts. The problem is the brass fittings, the pipe is great. To my understanding the copper pex fittings are still ok. Plenty to be read on the topic. Here is a start for those interested.
> http://www.richardmalin.com/Dezincification.html


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Protech said:


> Sounds like the water is incompatible with the material (brass).
> 
> What do they use for faucets, compression ferrels on supply lines, stops, water heater t/p valves and drain valves in these areas?


We use the same thing everybody elsewhere uses but if it looks old we go to the meter to turn water supply off. T&P valves are just not touched once they have any age on them unless you're prepared to change it out.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Old News!

The guy is a home inspector and the pics he used are lifted off the Kitec Class Action Website....

http://www.plumbingdefect.com/lawsuit.html

The deadline for claims in that Class Action was 7/31/2010....
So it's definitely not the next one....


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

So it is. I had been seeing this problem locally long before now though and had switched so I know it's not going away and is big.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

What was the water piping material? Copper? What was brass that deteriorated? And why did your past supervisor re-pipe the house? Was all the water piping bad? Orig. post left me asking these questions. Maybe I'm tired because it's almost 1:00AM. :jester:


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> What was the water piping material? Copper? What was brass that deteriorated? And why did your past supervisor re-pipe the house? Was all the water piping bad? Orig. post left me asking these questions. Maybe I'm tired because it's almost 1:00AM. :jester:


Piping was Pex, and fittings were pex brass material. Nice thing about the pex is i'm sure they can replace just the fittings for now. I will have to find out how extensive they are having to go. But he did say repipe. He was wanting my walk through camcorder video of the top-out.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

mpsllc said:


> Piping was Pex, and fittings were pex brass material. Nice thing about the pex is i'm sure they can replace just the fittings for now. I will have to find out how extensive they are having to go. But he did say repipe. He was wanting my walk through camcorder video of the top-out.








I would lose that video if it were me. Someone might be looking for evidence to present in court. If past boss needs to know where manifolds are, tell him. But I'd be cautious about turning a video of top-out over to others. Just my 2 cents.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

I couldn't find it anyway. We've switched pcs 2 or 3 times since then and no telling where it is,,,,, grinssssssss. Honestly I did look hard though.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

BTW I did volunteer to do a walk through with him though.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Yeah, another plumber was just telling me today, that since us contractors are licensed and also must carry insurance, we have a target on our backs. I'm not looking to get sued.

If people find mold in their house (after a re-model, addition, etc.) anyone associated with that job could be sued by some lawyer group that's out for blood.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

The kind of thing sleepless nights are made. Speaking of night, I'm off to count sheep, rest well guys.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*thats already gone down in Nevada*



Tommy plumber said:


> Yeah, another plumber was just telling me today, that since us contractors are licensed and also must carry insurance, we have a target on our backs. I'm not looking to get sued.
> 
> If people find mold in their house (after a re-model, addition, etc.) anyone associated with that job could be sued by some lawyer group that's out for blood.


most of this has already gone donw in Nevada with the Kitech disaster... Their were about a half a dozen plumbers that had to go under just to protect their assets and then let their insurance companies be sued for the brunt of the millions and millions involved.....

a few of these guys were pretty big outfits with over 50 trucks ..all crashed and burned... and had to start over under new names,,,, just to keep from having the pants sued off of them.........
 that would feel something like a kick in the balls...ouch:yes:


FYI the next big lawsuit will be with the ZURN PEX fittings if it has not already started up in Minnesota...
that was big news back in 07....

I dont think my plastic WIRSBO fittings we use will ever go bad... but they are having fits with a SS banded crimp ring they were selling back in 08 too..

if you install pex you better be incorporated or a LLS.
or wear a heavy duty cup just in case...:laughing::yes:


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Keep in mind Kitec and RTI were both closed down because of the problem with Dezincification of Yellow Brass. Kitec paid $90,000,000 in the Las Vegas class-action. Wirsbo and Rehau are still dealing with the results of Disinfection. Dezincification only happens in very limited areas of the United States. Of the tens of thousands of water purveyors in the United States this exact water is only found in ten of them. The materials these manufacturers used is a legal material we all use on a daily basis. And finally, the people who were most familiar with the problems with Yellow Brass and Las Vegas water were the plumbers who had been dealing with it since before Kitec was ever installed in Las Vegas.


I don't believe anyone meant for the PEX disaster to happen in Las Vegas but there was a major failure to connect the dots. As Protech pointed out, the materials were not compatible with the environment they were installed in. It is our responsibility to ensure the materials we install are compatible with the environment we install them in. The fact that a material works in 99.9% of the US does not mean it will work in all conditions.

Mark


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> Keep in mind Kitec and RTI were both closed down because of the problem with Dezincification of Yellow Brass. Kitec paid $90,000,000 in the Las Vegas class-action. Wirsbo and Rehau are still dealing with the results of Disinfection. Dezincification only happens in very limited areas of the United States. Of the tens of thousands of water purveyors in the United States this exact water is only found in ten of them. The materials these manufacturers used is a legal material we all use on a daily basis. And finally, the people who were most familiar with the problems with Yellow Brass and Las Vegas water were the plumbers who had been dealing with it since before Kitec was ever installed in Las Vegas.
> 
> 
> I don't believe anyone meant for the PEX disaster to happen in Las Vegas but there was a major failure to connect the dots. As Protech pointed out, the materials were not compatible with the environment they were installed in. It is our responsibility to ensure the materials we install are compatible with the environment we install them in. The fact that a material works in 99.9% of the US does not mean it will work in all conditions.
> ...


 
RTI closed long before that. RTI closed because they were owned by Wirsbo, later renamed Uponor. RTI was a small distributed reseller cutting into its own parent company Wirsbo, so they consolidated.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

ZL700 said:


> RTI closed long before that. RTI closed because they were owned by Wirsbo, later renamed Uponor. RTI was a small distributed reseller cutting into its own parent company Wirsbo, so they consolidated.


The first failure I ever documented of a PEX related Dezincification was on the hot water side of an RTI fitting in North Las Vegas. By the time I got involved there was a question of whether it was the fitting which expanded from the corrosion of the Dezincification or the Otiker clamp just failed. Before too long the Kitec fittings started becoming a major problem.

Mark


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

ToUtahNow said:


> I don't believe anyone meant for the PEX disaster to happen in Las Vegas but there was a major failure to connect the dots. As Protech pointed out, the materials were not compatible with the environment they were installed in. It is our responsibility to ensure the materials we install are compatible with the environment we install them in. The fact that a material works in 99.9% of the US does not mean it will work in all conditions.
> 
> Mark


I agree 100%. I have stated on multiple previous threads in here that copper for one thing is crap in houses here, and I would never use it without a disclaimer releasing me of all responsibility because it pinholes too bad. I have also stated I don't use brass pex fittings with the exception of fip's and sweat adpts. We have to keep moving, if I see something better than what I'm using I make the move. I hear so much about Moen faucets in here, single cartridge Moen faucets work great, but around here they minieral up so bad it's a crap shoot or at the least one heck of a tuck match to get it out. And I have the pullers.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> The first failure I ever documented of a PEX related Dezincification was on the hot water side of an RTI fitting in North Las Vegas. By the time I got involved there was a question of whether it was the fitting which expanded from the corrosion of the Dezincification or the Otiker clamp just failed. Before too long the Kitec fittings started becoming a major problem.
> 
> Mark


I'm not saying it wasn't an issue, mostly the imported Chinese manufactured "brass" barbed fittings, just that RTI was closed down by its parent Uponor before the problem was discovered. 

Remember the Kitec problem was a little different, being 2 dissimilar metals, aluminum barrier in the tube in contact with the "brass".


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## HuskyMurph (Dec 13, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> I'm not saying it wasn't an issue, mostly the imported Chinese manufactured "brass" barbed fittings, just that RTI was closed down by its parent Uponor before the problem was discovered.
> 
> Remember the Kitec problem was a little different, being 2 dissimilar metals, aluminum barrier in the tube in contact with the "brass".


 interseting we did some boiler work few years ago with some pipe. it was gray had a aluminum sleeve inside it. plastic outside. brass fittings. wonder if there will be problems. not sure what the pipe was but we use VEGA and the brass fittings not sure what it was for boiler.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

New one on me.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

ZL700 said:


> I'm not saying it wasn't an issue, mostly the imported Chinese manufactured "brass" barbed fittings, just that RTI was closed down by its parent Uponor before the problem was discovered.
> 
> Remember the Kitec problem was a little different, being 2 dissimilar metals, aluminum barrier in the tube in contact with the "brass".


The Kitec failure was Dezincification and had nothing to with the Aluminum layer. The fittings that failed were made in both the USA and China. The factories and the materials Kitec used for their fittings were the same other manufactures used. The water chemistry in Las Vegas caused the Zinc to be pulled out of the fittings. This caused the fittings to lose their strength and they would start to snap. In addition the corrosion caused by the Dezincification restricted the flow to the fixtures. The only solutions are, low-zinc brass, bronze, synthetic or copper fittings. 

Mark


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> Keep in mind Kitec and RTI were both closed down because of the problem with Dezincification of Yellow Brass. Kitec paid $90,000,000 in the Las Vegas class-action. Wirsbo and Rehau are still dealing with the results of Disinfection. Dezincification only happens in very limited areas of the United States. Of the tens of thousands of water purveyors in the United States this exact water is only found in ten of them. The materials these manufacturers used is a legal material we all use on a daily basis. And finally, the people who were most familiar with the problems with Yellow Brass and Las Vegas water were the plumbers who had been dealing with it since before Kitec was ever installed in Las Vegas.
> 
> 
> I don't believe anyone meant for the PEX disaster to happen in Las Vegas but there was a major failure to connect the dots. As Protech pointed out, the materials were not compatible with the environment they were installed in. It is our responsibility to ensure the materials we install are compatible with the environment we install them in. The fact that a material works in 99.9% of the US does not mean it will work in all conditions.
> ...


We are starting to find homes on RO water with yellow brass fail. The fittings are filling up with a white build up or developing leaks much like copper. Problem I see is yellow brass appears to be here to stay.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

RO water will attack all metal. SS holds up pretty good against it, but even SS will eventually fail. 



Proud Plumber said:


> We are starting to find homes on RO water with yellow brass fail. The fittings are filling up with a white build up or developing leaks much like copper. Problem I see is yellow brass appears to be here to stay.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Proud Plumber said:


> We are starting to find homes on RO water with yellow brass fail.


And that wouldn't be expected? 

At least the RO system manufacturers figured out they had to use all plastic for RO water...

I'm surprised the plumbers there didn't know this....

Does that make them negligent?:whistling2:


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

Redwood said:


> And that wouldn't be expected?
> 
> At least the RO system manufacturers figured out they had to use all plastic for RO water...
> 
> ...


Our city water is RO. Copper plumbing was here first, when the City voted the construction of the RO plant, they forgot to mention that detail. They set up a "Bonified research project" :thumbsup: and determined that copper failures were not from RO water rather the flux. :whistling2:


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