# Is the tenant crazy?



## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

Went to a rental unit yesterday. Property manager is part of a real estate group that we do quite a bit of work for. Very good customers.

The tenants have a few complaints that center around the water heater. First... it is old. The information has been painted over, but one look at the case and I would date it to the late 80's. There is no doubt that the unit would benefit from a new heater, but the owner is planning to sell it. Not gonna convince them to replace it if it is functional and not leaking. I checked it out in order to be thorough. Somebody has bypassed the upper element and it is strictly running off of the lower element. Drawing 18.09 amps at 246v. Cycling on and off properly. Other than the bypassed element, all is within normal range for the area. FUNCTIONALLY, the heater is......not dangerous IMO.

Here comes the weird part. The tenant complains that after about 10 minutes of showering, both mother and son experience the same red irritated skin. They claim that their eyes get red and affected as well, and that their hair is falling out. The son claims that he took a cold water only shower and stayed in for an extended period of time. He said "like an hour" which is surely an exaggeration. (BTW, water comes out in the 70's here, so cold is not that cold) He didn't experience any ill effect. They were concerned about bacteria in the hot water (city water), so I tested and found a little over 3.5 ppm chlorine in the water. (both hot and cold) The mother insisted twice that she would get in the shower while I watched so I could see. (adding to the crazy factor) The son seemed somewhat reasonable, so I'm not just blowing him off.

I've never run into this before. Has anyone run into a water heater related problem that cause a consistent skin issue. I can't connect the dots. I would happily tell the homeowner to replace the antiquated tank if I really believed it would remedy the situation, but I can't see how it would.

1. Are the tenants crazy?
2. Are the tenants trying to break the lease, and are coming up with an unsolvable problem to achieve that? (they have only been there 2 months)
3. Is this a real problem, and what am I missing?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*change the heater*



Letterrip said:


> 1. Are the tenants crazy?
> 2. Are the tenants trying to break the lease, and are coming up with an unsolvable problem to achieve that? (they have only been there 2 months)
> 3. *Is this a real problem, and what am I missing?[/QUOTE*]
> 
> ...


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

What's the temp on the hot water?


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## younger-plumber (Sep 12, 2008)

Plumberman said:


> What's the temp on the hot water?


if not above 140 im sure some nasty crap could live there...im no scientist but it sounds scary...heck take a shower with her and see what happens hahahahah


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

If its below that range, which I'm sure it is with one element bypassed there isn't any telling what all is thriving in that environment. The bottom of the heater is slam full of nasties. 

I run mine pegged out and have taught my son how to operate the shower valve, i even took out the limit stop on the new shower valve i had to install after the original sprung a leak and he has never been burned.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

That was my dumba$$ move. The tenant had also complained that when she was running the shower and the washing machine at the same time, the smoke alarm went off. So she is convinced that the heater is a death trap. By the time I had run volumes of water to prove her wrong, I had depleted the heater. Couldn't wait another 45 minutes for it to replenish. (Bottom element only). I can say that the first water coming out was pretty hot. At least 130 I would say, but that certainly wouldn't hold up in court. Also need 140 to kill off everything, but 140 isn't required on residential.

Residential requirements are:

In occupied structures, hot water shall be supplied to all plumbing fixtures and equipment utilized for bathing, washing, culinary purposes, cleansing, laundry or building maintenance.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

Plumberman said:


> If its below that range, which I'm sure it is with one element bypassed there isn't any telling what all is thriving in that environment. The bottom of the heater is slam full of nasties..


One element or two makes no difference on top end temp. Just takes longer to heat. 40 years ago, heaters had one element at the bottom. Top elements only are there for quick recovery. They heat the top portion only. Still can hit 140 with only a bottom element.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Letterrip said:


> That was my dumba$$ move. The tenant had also complained that when she was running the shower and the washing machine at the same time, the smoke alarm went off. So she is convinced that the heater is a death trap. By the time I had run volumes of water to prove her wrong, I had depleted the heater. Couldn't wait another 45 minutes for it to replenish. (Bottom element only). I can say that the first water coming out was pretty hot. At least 130 I would say, but that certainly wouldn't hold up in court. Also need 140 to kill off everything, but 140 isn't required on residential.
> 
> Residential requirements are:
> 
> In occupied structures, hot water shall be supplied to all plumbing fixtures and equipment utilized for bathing, washing, culinary purposes, cleansing, laundry or building maintenance.


If its smoking, then it ain't functioning properly.

How is the heater bypassed on the upper element?


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

I really want to convince the HO to replace the heater. Just need to approach with something a little better than "it might help". Hoping for a strong scientific answer. (I still think the tenant is a little crazy even if she is right)


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

It isn't smoking. There are no signs of smoke, charring, or otherwise. The 220 is sent straight down to the lower half AFTER the thermal cutoff in the upper thermostat. One leg to the lower thermostat, and the other to the element. Upper thermostat has no control.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Letterrip said:


> One element or two makes no difference on top end temp. Just takes longer to heat. 40 years ago, heaters had one element at the bottom. Top elements only are there for quick recovery. They heat the top portion only. Still can hit 140 with only a bottom element.


You say 130 by feel but with no accurate temp reading. I'm not busting your ballz just working through the diagnosis.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

Letterrip said:


> That was my dumba$$ move. The tenant had also complained that when she was running the shower and the washing machine at the same time, the smoke alarm went off. So she is convinced that the heater is a death trap. By the time I had run volumes of water to prove her wrong, I had depleted the heater. Couldn't wait another 45 minutes for it to replenish. (Bottom element only). I can say that the first water coming out was pretty hot. At least 130 I would say, but that certainly wouldn't hold up in court. Also need 140 to kill off everything, but 140 isn't required on residential.
> 
> Residential requirements are:
> 
> In occupied structures, hot water shall be supplied to all plumbing fixtures and equipment utilized for bathing, washing, culinary purposes, cleansing, laundry or building maintenance.


You may want to check with your attorney before sending hotter than 120 to any residential fixture. I've instructed clients on how to turn the temp. down on a w.h. never up, & if a tnt asks, I tell them it's illegal to go over 120! 
Turn that heater down to 120, & see how quick the ho has you change it out. The tnts will have a legit complaint then, & you'll have covered your a##. Who's door do you think the attorneys will be knocking on if someone gets scalded?


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

No doubt I never turned them up from the factory, always allowed them to make that call.

Mine on the other hand runs like a scalded ape...


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Go on, take a shower with her and tell us how hot it was...


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

Plumberman said:


> You say 130 by feel but with no accurate temp reading. I'm not busting your ballz just working through the diagnosis.


Yeah, I wish I had checked. Like I said, wouldn't hold up. 



rjbphd said:


> Go on, take a shower with her and tell us how hot it was...


RJ, if I had a pic, you would understand what a mistake that would have been.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Letterrip said:


> Yeah, I wish I had checked. Like I said, wouldn't hold up.
> 
> RJ, if I had a pic, you would understand what a mistake that would have been.


Lol


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Tank thermostats are not a reliable guide to the internal temperature of the tank. Gas-fired water tanks may have no temperature calibration shown. An electric thermostat shows the temperature at the elevation of the thermostat, but water lower in the tank can be considerably cooler. An outlet thermometer is a better indication of water temperature.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

They need to get that water tested on that bypass by a third party. If it's all clear, I would strongly suggest a new water heater.

Bypassing the element and the fact that you know about it? 

I was taught in backflow if I see something wrong, since I saw it I must report it. 

So you can report it to the city or whoever is in charge in that jurisdiction to get in contact with the customer.

You don't need a possible lawsuit hanging over your head


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

Plumberman said:


> Tank thermostats are not a reliable guide to the internal temperature of the tank. Gas-fired water tanks may have no temperature calibration shown. An electric thermostat shows the temperature at the elevation of the thermostat, but water lower in the tank can be considerably cooler. An outlet thermometer is a better indication of water temperature.


Paperwork in on of the heaters years ago suggested a +- 25 degree accuracy on a thermostat.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

As far as hair falling out & skin allergens, they should consult with a dermatologist. What the he'll would a plumber know about skin irritations w/ water? I don't think it's a water issue, I think the soon is putting stictnine in there meals, & eating it himself so as not to arise any suspicion. Gotta figure out done way to kill off that crazy mom & get some ins. $...


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

I thought about sending samples to National Testing Laboratories. I think that I will present it to the HO this way. She needs to protect herself from a lawsuit, frivolous or not. It will cost WELL over half the cost of the heater to have the water from the heater tested to cover her butt. Would be a much better value to replace the heater. ONLY problem I see with this is... What if it doesn't solve the alleged problem?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

ASUPERTECH said:


> As far as hair falling out & skin allergens, they should consult with a dermatologist. What the he'll would a plumber know about skin irritations w/ water? I don't think it's a water issue, I think the soon is putting stictnine in there meals, & eating it himself so as not to arise any suspicion. Gotta figure out done way to kill off that crazy mom & get some ins. $...


Believe it or not... I had a customer asked me to by pass the water softner because she claimed its was turning her skin red... after a test period, sure enough.. so I piped one shower with untreated water (seperated water heater) as rest of family can't stands untreated water bathing/showering, etc


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

ASUPERTECH said:


> As far as hair falling out & skin allergens, they should consult with a dermatologist. What the he'll would a plumber know about skin irritations w/ water? I don't think it's a water issue, I think the soon is putting stictnine in there meals, & eating it himself so as not to arise any suspicion. Gotta figure out done way to kill off that crazy mom & get some ins. $...


Now that's funny!!


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> Believe it or not... I had a customer asked me to by pass the water softner because she claimed its was turning her skin red... after a test period, sure enough.. so I piped one shower with untreated water (seperated water heater) as rest of family can't stands untreated water bathing/showering, etc


I've had soft water bother skin before. Just not hot water. This is city water. Runs about 7-8 grains of hardness.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

rjbphd said:


> Believe it or not... I had a customer asked me to by pass the water softner because she claimed its was turning her skin red... after a test period, sure enough.. so I piped one shower with untreated water (seperated water heater) as rest of family can't stands untreated water bathing/showering, etc


I believe you, but have trouble with the "test". Again I would say, consult with a dermatologist to see what if any issues could arise from the lack of calcium & magnesium in the water? Could've been a million & 1 other things as well as a softer I suppose. I wonder what would happen if she gave it another try? 

I think people are weird sometimes. Don't get me wrong, I'd've done the same as you and got paid to repipe the softener to the shower, but aren't her clothes, dishes and hands still in it regularly? Skin breakouts can be caused by everything from mental issues, stress, toxins, allergies, viruses, weak immune system, etc., etc., etc.... I'm just skeptical is all.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

Letterrip said:


> I've had soft water bother skin before. Just not hot water. This is city water. Runs about 7-8 grains of hardness.


That's very low for most municipal water suppliers. Are you sure about the 7-8 grains? Does the condo have a softener?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

ASUPERTECH said:


> I believe you, but have trouble with the "test". Again I would say, consult with a dermatologist to see what if any issues could arise from the lack of calcium & magnesium in the water? Could've been a million & 1 other things as well as a softer I suppose. I wonder what would happen if she gave it another try?
> 
> I think people are weird sometimes. Don't get me wrong, I'd've done the same as you and got paid to repipe the softener to the shower, but aren't her clothes, dishes and hands still in it regularly? Skin breakouts can be caused by everything from mental issues, stress, toxins, allergies, viruses, weak immune system, etc., etc., etc.... I'm just skeptical is all.


True with the etc etc etc.. I suspects the soaps.. but she had tried them all... dishwashing, uses rubber gloves as well doing laundry.. have another customer that allerigic to rubber material.. so no rubber washing hoses on washer..


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Well, we all tried to come up with answers... guess, you'll have to shower with her to get the result.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

A shower it is.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

3.5ppm is high for swimming pools, but chlorine is a city issue and I don't know what he maximum amount allowed is.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

rjbphd said:


> Well, we all tried to come up with answers... guess, you'll have to shower with her to get the result.


Lol


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

ASUPERTECH said:


> That's very low for most municipal water suppliers. Are you sure about the 7-8 grains? Does the condo have a softener?


I didn't test this particular situation for the hardness. I'm going historical. Our ground water comes out around 16-18 grains of hardness. In the past when I have tested (multiple occasions over the years) public water provided by miami-Dade water and sewer runs 7-8. City of homestead where I live runs about 13.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

I HAVE SEEN SOMETHING LIKE THIS BUT IT WAS ON A NEW WATER HEATER
INSTALL WHERE THE WATER HAD A REACTION TO THE ANODE ROD,
FOR A OLD HEATER AGAIN THE HO WOULD BE BETTER OFF WITH INSTALLING A
NEW HEATER


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## yzrider (Nov 19, 2013)

have you tried draining the tank to see what comes out? I've removed lower elements before, only to find 4-6" of nasty sludge sitting on the bottom. I understand you wanting some kind of proof that the heater needs replacing. but the fact that its not running properly, the tenants are crazy and complaining, and the smoke alarm is going off, might just be reason enough. not to mention, new appliances (especially major appliances) are good selling points.


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## Gryphon Plumber (Jun 3, 2012)

New heater turned up to 150 with a mixing valve. Otherwise it seems like this is wasting your time. That "crazy" tenant is her tenant not yours.


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## Gryphon Plumber (Jun 3, 2012)

Sorry just hate slum lords & property managers in general.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*change the heater*


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