# Would this pass or fail in your jurisdiction



## SPH (Nov 4, 2008)

taken from a plumbers site i found online... would this pass or fail an inspection in your area?


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

hopefully it was a "what not to do" example. 
1: no stud guards.
2: horizontal branch looks lower than trap wier so would hold water and is illegal to begin with- 2 fixtures on one trap. 
3: looks like a washer riser. High discharge with a branch draining into it would back up.
Did I miss anything?


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

SPH said:


> taken from a plumbers site i found online... would this pass or fail an inspection in your area?


FAIL. From the pic I can't even understand what it is. Still looking though - might figure it out yet.

Looks S-trapped. The Tee looks upside down, but might not be - hard to tell.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

*PASS - Cincinnati Ohio *

Glad to see you've taken the time to visit my picture album. :laughing:


You are staring at the underside of a 2nd floor bathroom floor, standing perpendicular to the layout of the toilet, looking up at the pipe. The long pipe is pitching towards the center of the house and into a chaseway next to the chimney. *It passed inspection because it superceded Ohio plumbing code.*


That is a 2 story home in Cincinnati Ohio where a repipe was done and if you look at that crumbling structure, you'll see how and why I couldn't touch that wood and/or remove anymore concrete that once was solid into the plumbing wall.

That was the only main stack inside that house leading to the roof and it had to stay full size.

Distance from flange to vent was less than 3 feet, code will allow up to 5 feet in KY or OH, I thinks. :blink:


In KY we can bring that toilet drain around a full 360 degrees to catch a vent in the wall serving behind that toilet and head towards the stack.

You're looking at a job that was done 11' off the floor in that home. It SUCKED, badly and thank goodness I know how to work with pipe and fittings because I couldn't of done it twice with the accuracy and working with such tolerances with the fittings.

A 90 to the wall into a street 90 into the front of that tee wouldn't work, distances aren't lined up. 

Customer would not let me drop that piping out of the ceiling...5' elegant kitchen wall cabinets being hung right below.


Questions?...feel free to ask.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Oh! We're looking UP at it. :laughing: Now I understand. No, that wouldn't pass here, I don't think. Though whenever I do a point-and-laugh at some of jobs around here done by "modern" plumbers (slobs) I think maybe it would (NOT!).  Some of the stuff they do is very shocking to me, and the fact that the inspectors pass it is even more shocking to me.

I'm not calling you personally a slob, Mr. Dunbar. Everybody does what the authority-having-jurisdiction allows in their area, and I guess your AHJ's allow lots and lots of elbows. I'm just saying that it would not be allowed here.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

If you look at that gap in the concrete to the plumbing wall, all of that fell out, crumbled and fell to the first floor when they was trying to get that cast iron piping out for me.

The piping system before was a tee laid on its side, completely clogged as it wasn't washed and it did two turns to line back up and go to the roof. 

You could tell the plumbers back then had nothing to work with, literally.

Building inspector was involved because of the integrity of that floor was in question. :whistling2:

When I glued that snake together before entering that tee for the main stack...I had one and only one shot to glue those fittings together and pray they were the right degree between each turn of direction.

The lead bend for that toilet stretched from the laid sideways tee, all the way to the freaking hole for the toilet flange.

I'm actually glad I don't do these types of extensive jobs anymore. 

No other plumber would take the job, a perfect job fo me. :thumbsup:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

A better view to clarify the way that image looks











Every other plumber that looked at that job stated they could not replumb that bathroom without dropping down and under. I proved that by the pictures that it could be done, still in the joists.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Here is what that system looks like from the 2nd floor staring at the toilet.


As you see, the tee and the closet flange location are too close together to make a fitting into the front of the tee.

Plus, I wasn't allowed to bust out any concrete, had to work with the existing location of the lead.











All that piping you see was boxed into that joist and encased in concrete.


That 2" is picking up a 1/2 bath in the basement, the 1.5" is picking up the tub to the left.


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

My bad, was thinking the first pix was the wall, now that I look at it, it looks like the ceiling


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## drtyhands (Aug 16, 2008)

We are only allowed 135 degrees on a trap arm,
long sweeps on the horizontal.
Out here I think I would've had to use a wye downstream a few more inches.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

As stated above, 

Short sweeps on the horizontal.

No clean-out. 


Looks like an ideal spot for a rear outlet water closet dropping into a combo below, to me. Problems solved.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

drtyhands said:


> We are only allowed 135 degrees on a trap arm,
> long sweeps on the horizontal.
> Out here I think I would've had to use a wye downstream a few more inches.


Your code sounds much like ours. No street fittings allowed here either. We have a minimum radius we're allowed, and they outlawed streets cuz they wouldn't make the radius.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

*Not legal on UPC code*

As stated by dirty hands for trap arm in excess of 135 degrees. Another code violation is using a santee on its back, must be a y or combi, and are those long sweep 90s , because they must be . It might pass inspection here too! you never know ! sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do!


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Well I had one shot through those 3 joists sandwiched together, and it comes at almost a 45 degree angle and then quickly turns to get into the open space you see.

I thought about the wye config but doesn't that create a flat vent on the mainstack? << That's exactly what was there before and was 100% clogged. 

There are no restrictions on street fittings, cutting down hubs, vent street 90's for closet flanges. The way I layed that tee? Common here, even 50 years ago.

Like I said...I could not of done that job twice given how crazy that 3" travels to the tee, in such a bizarre direction to land in there.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

The codes about not using street fittings does not make sense to me. I mean all your cast iron and clay are street fittings, heck the code even stats all hubs must go in one direction with the flow, and no double hub fittings are allowed. Can you imagine iv PVC and ABS had to follow the same codes as cast iron? No double hub fittings, all the pipe is bell and spigot (which they do make Sch 40 like that), and every fittings would be a street fittings.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

True, and there would be absolutely no freaking way to tuck piping in joist spaces in finished ceilings without dropping them. If I did new construction and told the GC they'd have to drop box out? Fired, on the spot, gone.


What I didn't mention is how much work I pulled off this job for being the only plumber out of 5 that took the challenge, got it done without dropping down. I stopped working for them because they kept wanting me to go further up north in Ohio, and I don't like doing larger jobs to begin with.

That repipe you see I believe I charged $1700.00, drains only, they pulled all the cast iron out before I started. I had maybe $270.00 in material and a lot of that material came back with me. :yes:


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

FAIL -No purple primer


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Here is what that system looks like from the 2nd floor staring at the toilet.
> 
> 
> As you see, the tee and the closet flange location are too close together to make a fitting into the front of the tee.
> ...


Could you have offset that vent in the wall upstairs to bring it down through the floor further downstream in order to reduce the amount of turns on that toilet sweep?


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## Kyle181 (Sep 5, 2008)

well dunbar i guess i will be the first to admit that it looks like a serious pain in the a*s of a job, and you got it done and passed inspection!


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Plumber Jim said:


> Could you have offset that vent in the wall upstairs to bring it down through the floor further downstream in order to reduce the amount of turns on that toilet sweep?


 This was my thought too . Tee downstream further , 45 's offsets in wall above.

That would be the only way it would pass here .


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

That looks like a nightmare. Still trying to fiqure out what the heck I'm looking at. Is that a 3" trap?? 
BTW, did you have to do an air test on the waste for final? Reason I ask is that was something I had to do back in 85 on the motel 6's I did in Dayton..


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

Pretty crazy repipe, Dunbar! It's amazing what a difference context plays when you're only looking at pictures. From the OP I thought (as I'm sure many others did) that I was looking at a 2" p-trap in a wall. That'd fail at first glance, but then your explanation of what we were actually looking at, the circumstances and criteria, not to mention the fact that some poor S.O.B had to fit that all together with primer and gluecans dangling on a tall stepladder. . .

My hat's off to you, man! GJ!
(It'd still fail here as we have to use the 135° change of direction rule. The san-tee on it's back is OK as long as it's a vent, but too close to ells to be allowed here.)


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## SPH (Nov 4, 2008)

Dunbar. I didnt post that picture to pick on you, just thought it would start some conversation and it did. I agree, you did the best you could under the circumstances and the customer was happy.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Plumber Jim said:


> Could you have offset that vent in the wall upstairs to bring it down through the floor further downstream in order to reduce the amount of turns on that toilet sweep?


 
I wasn't allowed to touch anything with a saw, and the pitch of the arched ceiling didn't allow a redirect in the wall. 

I tried for that application and got shot down. Roof had clay tiles on it..property owner was swearing that was a load bearing wall...it wasn't.


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## drtyhands (Aug 16, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING;89416I said:


> I thought about the wye config but doesn't that create a flat vent on the mainstack?


The 45 degree angle off the horizontal wye is still considered vertical.

It's tough when the guy running the job dictates how you run your pipe.

Your getting hammered on this one Dunbar.I'm possitive it is to code and acceptable in your area,and it is a clean installation.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

I was taught to use a santee on its back for venting and did it for years, Found out it was illegal reading my code (UPC) . My mentor assured me it was legal until I finaly got called by an inspector and since through working with others found out this practice w illegal. It was very common and still is done but not quite as often seen. And it works... Just a little better practice though to use a y or combi. Sometimes a little compromise to save the structure and keep the customer happy. I suppose the inspector could have cut you some slack as well.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Well what matters is what involves that system in a flooded/backed up state, meaning waste matter can back up that main vent to the highest flood level rim in that second floor, which would be the vanity at which it will overflow.


When the system becomes unclogged, the plumbing codes want that system to be non-fouling, which implies that in a flooded state that all piping will then return to its original condition. 

With the tee configured as I have it, gravity will return waste matter and solids back into the flow of motion, and the vent will serve its function properly without being clogged or restricted.

I agree though that a combo wye would be a better application but for a vent? 

If you are speaking of a drain, I cannot come out of the front of a wye with a 45 and offset into the wall; that vent has to be washed. That's plumbing 101 in a nutshell in kentucky. << I say that because our code supercedes ohio all day long. Ask Elmer Weil. right leak1? :yes:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

ESPinc said:


> That looks like a nightmare. Still trying to fiqure out what the heck I'm looking at. Is that a 3" trap??
> BTW, did you have to do an air test on the waste for final? Reason I ask is that was something I had to do back in 85 on the motel 6's I did in Dayton..


 
Yes, we did an air test and the inspector let us do the test on the last foot going through the roof line, inside. :thumbsup: Homie don't get on no damn clay tile roof, even with a helicopter harnessing me from the sky. :laughing:


I know I still got it in me to do jobs like this again, but this one was up there on the difficulty level, guys bought me lunch every day. LOL! I made a friend or two on this job for keeping the structure of the joists and concrete, untouched. 

It would take literally a jackhammer to bust all that back out; all one big chunk of concrete I believe.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Well what matters is what involves that system in a flooded/backed up state, meaning waste matter can back up that main vent to the highest flood level rim in that second floor, which would be the vanity at which it will overflow.
> 
> 
> When the system becomes unclogged, the plumbing codes want that system to be non-fouling, which implies that in a flooded state that all piping will then return to its original condition.
> ...


We all have different codes, In UPC there is not a situation at all that allows a santee laying on its back. The santee does not have the "sweep" like a combi or a y , 
No I wasent talikng about using the front part of y for the trap thatsthe branch for the vent


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## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

its a fail in canada, you cant use 90's to make a strap, and the trap arm is a nightmare


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

AKdaplumba said:


> its a fail in canada, you cant use 90's to make a strap, and the trap arm is a nightmare


Read a bit closer. I thought it was a trap too, but it isn't. I thought it was too, but the pic is from the bottom and all that piping is horizontal.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I still like the rear outlet toilet option in this instance......


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> I still like the rear outlet toilet option in this instance......


Good Idea, I think you could have built it legaly, that way. But If you got someone dictating and micro managing the job and you need the work badly. And they pay good then this works! I just hate doing stuff like that though, Ive had too before, take a dirty shortcut to keep them happy


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Those people would of looked at me with 3 heads with a rear outlet, especially the cost. It would of worked, but as always, everything was done at minimum to the big picture of this large project.

Another reason I despise doing these jobs; too many involved in the decision making process completely.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Seems like the toilet could have been caught with a wye and then turn up with a long sweep 90 upstream to go up.


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## A Good Plumber (Jun 18, 2008)

I say, you should hire a plumber next time you try to do a job like this.:laughing:


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## drtyhands (Aug 16, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Seems like the toilet could have been caught with a wye and then turn up with a long sweep 90 upstream to go up.


 Would not pass
"All drains shall be self cleaning"


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

drtyhands said:


> Would not pass
> "All drains shall be self cleaning"


Yup, no end venting.

No washy , no venty.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I thought it had a lavatory dumping over the top of it. Sorrrryyyyyyyyyyyy


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

It passes everywhere. It looks a bit screwey, but the line is pitched, it's vented and there is nothing in the code that says you can't make a sweep like that.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> It passes everywhere. It looks a bit screwey, but the line is pitched, it's vented and there is nothing in the code that says you can't make a sweep like that.


 The T on its back would be a no go here. They would want a combo.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I really wish I would of taken pictures of jobs I did back in the early 90's. 

I did complete gut outs of 3 story buildings, some large repipes in my day where I was working in existing brick chases that made 22's a great fitting. 

Even had some custom fabbed stainless steel toilet slabs made at a machine shop, bolted the flanges to the stainless steel as the concrete was crumbling into pieces and I knew the large pan would work better. 

They even bent the edges to keep the users from hitting their feet, causing harm. 

I hired habeeb off the street...he might of had 3 teeth left in his mouth. Him and two other guys I'd pay to pull all that horrible piping (deteriorated cast iron) out of the building. Did well on that job.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> The T on its back would be a no go here. They would want a combo.


 
Santee on its back is illegal everywhere, I just dont belive its ever legal, if it was legal why would you ever use a combi.


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## liquidplumber (Dec 6, 2009)

jeffreyplumber said:


> Santee on its back is illegal everywhere


Not against code here in Massachusetts but, generally not considered good practice.


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