# Cracked Brass Ball Valve Part II



## rocksteady

I got a call today that another of the Red White ball valves had split. These ball valves were installed 2 months ago and this is the second that has split on me. I posted pictures of the first one and some thought it might have been too tight, I didn't think so. This one is no where near too tight yet it split just like the first, only it took a few weeks longer. 




















I installed 18 of these and already 2 have failed. Each time it takes a good 2+ hours due to travel time and draining the system down. Luckily none of them are in an area where they would cause damage by leaking but it's a huge inconvenience to me and the customer. I never shop at Ferguson's so I don't know what valves they carry but these are the best available where I do shop. What ball valves does Fergy's in Ca. carry? Am I going to have to order valves over the internet? 

If this is a result of the new brass formula, is there a valve that is more malleable or thicker? It looks like I'm going to have to find a supply on my own so what do you guys recommend for a $15 or so (my cost) ball valve? These are cheaper but the supply house has said over and over that nobody will buy the more expensive valves. It doesn't matter to me because I just pass the cost to the customer and whatever you save on cheap valves you lose as soon as you have to eat 2 hours and material to replace one. 








Paul


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## AKdaplumba

they split because they are made in China


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## user2090

Yikes, I would be freakin out. Are those China brass? We put in Nibco valves they seem ok enough. We have a supplier here the sells Apollo valves. They make some that are thick enough to hurt your toe if you dropped it.


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## leak1

ledgend or apollo valves - my dad always said: tights tight and tighter is broke. :whistling2:


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## user2090

leak1 said:


> ledgend or apollo valves - my dad always said: tights tight and tighter is broke. :whistling2:


I always say, "If you don't make a face when you tighten it, then its not tight enough."


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## rocksteady

AKdaplumba said:


> they split because they are made in China


These are made in Italy but I don't think it matters to me anymore, they may as well be Chinese. 







Paul


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## Plumbworker

As far as i know the red & white valves with a red handle are made in italy.. I've seen green handled red and white lead free valves at my supplier and they were manufactured in china but still had the classic Red & White logo printed. It should be stamped Italy...


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## rocksteady

There are no markings either way on the body but it does say "Italy" stamped on the underside of the handle. I'm hoping it was just a bad batch but I may be done with these.





Paul


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## Rambo

not takin away from the thread but why not sweat valves?


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## Ron

Hell you know they have shark bite ball valves. I'd start using them if I was you. :laughing:


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## mongo

I've put in hundreds of Nibco's without a split failure.


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## rocksteady

Rambo said:


> not takin away from the thread but why not sweat valves?


 
The valves are on water stations very similar to these...












There isn't room because of how the valves are mounted to heavy steel plates with the water lines coming in from behind, just above the stations. It would have been nice to raise all the water lines about 8" and install unions after the valves. The customer made a point of not wanting 3 piece valves when I gave the bid so I need to basically remove the entire station to replace one valve due to lack of space.







Paul


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## rocksteady

Ron said:


> Hell you know they have shark bite ball valves. I'd start using them if I was you. :laughing:


Not a chance. :no:










Paul


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## Master Mark

*made in Italy*



rocksteady said:


> These are made in Italy but I don't think it matters to me anymore, they may as well be Chinese.
> 
> Paul


 



stay away from anything made in Italy, 

I had the same experience 10 years ago with ball valves with yellow handles that I bought from Italy...

I will only install Nibco or wolverine....


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## Redwood

Master Mark said:


> stay away from anything made in Italy,
> 
> I had the same experience 10 years ago with ball valves with yellow handles that I bought from Italy...
> 
> I will only install Nibco or wolverine....


Yea, I had a car once that was made in Italy...
What a Freakin Nightmare that was...

*F*ix *I*t *A*gain *T*ony! :laughing:

They are good for the arts, food and wine....:thumbup:
Stay away from their tech and mechanical stuff...


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## TheMaster

Sounds like a bad batch of valves or you over-tightend some of them. I've replaced 3/4 stop valves before and need a couple 14" wrenchs to break them loose.....way too tight. 100psi is nothing...why do peeps think it needs to be so tight?


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## PaulW

It appears to me a pipe wrench was used to tighten causing an oblong type stress to the valve combined with weak manufacturing could have caused the crack. 
Of course I am only guessing from a pic.


Let us know what you find out!

Paul


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## rocksteady

No pipe wrenches were used. These were new and installed on new copper mip's, no need for big artillery. I used a 12" crecent wrench on the valves and a pair of channel locks on the copper. I'm headed into the supply house to get the same old "that's wierd, nobody else has said anything". 







Paul


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## TheMaster

rocksteady said:


> No pipe wrenches were used. These were new and installed on new copper mip's, no need for big artillery. I used a 12" crecent wrench on the valves and a pair of channel locks on the copper. I'm headed into the supply house to get the same old "that's wierd, nobody else has said anything".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paul


I'm not pointing a finger at you....I've had valves split that I did not think were too tight. It happens..:thumbsup: Thats why I have insurance....:yes:


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## Master Mark

*Redwood....*



Redwood said:


> Yea, I had a car once that was made in Italy...
> What a Freakin Nightmare that was...
> 
> *F*ix *I*t *A*gain *T*ony! :laughing:
> 
> They are good for the arts, food and wine....:thumbup:
> Stay away from their tech and mechanical stuff...


 
Redwood, you forgot thatthey got hot ladies over there too......


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## rocksteady

TheMaster said:


> I'm not pointing a finger at you....I've had valves split that I did not think were too tight. It happens..:thumbsup: Thats why I have insurance....:yes:


Oh yeah, I know. They were obviously too tight for what they can handle, just not any tighter than any brass fittings I've installed for the last 10+ years. I think I'm just going to have to buy some valves that are a bit more stout and/or ease up on my wrenches. The one I put in to replace the cracked one is on loose. If it were the good old days, I'd have spun it around one more turn but it didn't leak so...

There is apparently a heavier Red-White valve that my supply house didn't stock because they're more expensive. These are only $8 and some guys have complained about the price increase over the Smith Coopers that they used to carry. People are cheap around here but I would gladly pay twice the price for a reliable valve. I'm trying to get them to stock either Apollo or Nibco, we'll see.






Paul


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

I had a helper put on to much Teflon that when he went to make it up he had bury it to make it look like he had the right depth valve cracked 1-2 weeks after install. NOT saying that's the case just somthin I have seen.


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## PLUMBER_BILL

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> I had a helper put on to much Teflon that when he went to make it up he had bury it to make it look like he had the right depth valve cracked 1-2 weeks after install. NOT saying that's the case just somthin I have seen.


I had a watts 1" with a split thread boss. I replaced it wit another watts 1" ... Was there a difference? U BET the new watts had twice the thickness on the thread bosses. Why the one that failed was a watts import. The good one was a watts domestic.

Caution I blew up a ball valve the other day. Sweat, had to take it out (off the system) a little bit of water dripping I figured that I could steam it out and get it hot enough to pull. Must have had water trapped inside the ball chamber. POW lucky I wasn't hurt. Reason for post I was stupid but I will use caution in the future. Word to the wise is sufficent!!


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## Redwood

Master Mark said:


> Redwood, you forgot thatthey got hot ladies over there too......


They may be hot when they are young....

But as Italian men age they usually take a young mistress for good reason...:laughing:


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## Protech

Stress corrosion cracking of yellow brass? Is that a brass BV or a bronze BV? If it's brass, it's SCC that caused the failure. 

Bronze won't do that, even in aggressive water.........of course bronze valves cost more than brass ones.........


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## Optimus Primer

TheMaster said:


> Sounds like a bad batch of valves or you over-tightend some of them. I've replaced 3/4 stop valves before and need a couple 14" wrenchs to break them loose.....way too tight. 100psi is nothing...why do peeps think it needs to be so tight?


Bayside500 was doing gas today and the helper he had was tightening the galv too tight. Bayside told him that it was too tight and the helper said that he can still see some threads left. The plumber that that helper usually works with taught him to bury the pipe into the fittings. Not going to be a pretty site if he cracks a ball valve on gas.


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## Redwood

I dunno...

I've had some shiot valves crack on me while while i was tightening them by hand waiting for the thing to snug up before using a wrench...

I think in some cases they are just selling us some real garbage...

Thank goodness for this global economy...:whistling2:


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## Protech

I would say being to cheap is the cause. Even if made in America/Canada, if they used a zinc rich alloy of brass and cut the threads when too cold, you will end up with stress corrosion cracking.

With that said, I do usually find "made in china" stamped on a cracked brass fitting. 



Redwood said:


> I dunno...
> 
> I've had some shiot valves crack on me while while i was tightening them by hand waiting for the thing to snug up before using a wrench...
> 
> I think in some cases they are just selling us some real garbage...
> 
> Thank goodness for this global economy...:whistling2:


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## futz

Could be a bad batch, but when two of them go it's very worrying. Maybe you were extra strong that day...  But the two would probably have come out of the same box, and out of the same batch of brass. If a third one goes then I'd start to really worry.

I had a 1" Conbraco PRV union split on me in a two or three year old house. That made me worry a lot because I install a LOT of them. But it's been the only one (knock wood).

Had several chinese-made pump flanges split *way* too easy when screwing them together. That one seems to have been a bad batch of metal because after avoiding them for a while I'm back using the same brand and they're fine now.


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## futz

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Must have had water trapped inside the ball chamber. POW lucky I wasn't hurt.


They make quite a bang don't they? :laughing: I did that on a 1-1/4 R&W once. Startled me pretty good.


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## Associated Plum

rocksteady said:


> I got a call today that another of the Red White ball valves had split. These ball valves were installed 2 months ago and this is the second that has split on me. I posted pictures of the first one and some thought it might have been too tight, I didn't think so. This one is no where near too tight yet it split just like the first, only it took a few weeks longer.
> 
> 
> I installed 18 of these and already 2 have failed. Each time it takes a good 2+ hours due to travel time and draining the system down. Luckily none of them are in an area where they would cause damage by leaking but it's a huge inconvenience to me and the customer. I never shop at Ferguson's so I don't know what valves they carry but these are the best available where I do shop. What ball valves does Fergy's in Ca. carry? Am I going to have to order valves over the internet?
> 
> If this is a result of the new brass formula, is there a valve that is more malleable or thicker? It looks like I'm going to have to find a supply on my own so what do you guys recommend for a $15 or so (my cost) ball valve? These are cheaper but the supply house has said over and over that nobody will buy the more expensive valves. It doesn't matter to me because I just pass the cost to the customer and whatever you save on cheap valves you lose as soon as you have to eat 2 hours and material to replace one.
> 
> Paul


This is why we don't use teflon tape.


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