# My Feelings Lic. Plumbers Verus Drain Cleaners



## MACPLUMB777

To all plumbers we have a proud trade and I have always been proud to be 

a plumber, :thumbup:

but having said that there are a lot of states where drain cleaners are not

required to be licensed plumbers ! :whistling2:

And having work both sides of that, I can honesty tell you they do not have 

to licensed to work to protect the " health " of the nation !

They are just as dedicated and trust worthy as any licensed plumber out

there ! :thumbup:

Are there cheats among them yes they are ! Just as they are the same kind of :furious:

people that are licensed plumbers ! People are people no matter what their

" licensed " status is,

I am plain getting sick and tired of plumbers bashing drain people ! :furious:
__________________


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## ILPlumber

I bash drain people (that do plumbing).

Drain cleaners do have their place in the pecking order of the pipe trades. BUT

They should not overstep their bounds, by messing with ANY plumbing piping or fixture removal.

People are people yes, licensed plumbers are people who went the extra mile to serve an apprenticeship and grab the brass ring. 

As long as drain cleaners know their place in the pecking order of the pipe trades, I have no problem.


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## MACPLUMB777

ILPlumber said:


> I bash drain people (that do plumbing).
> 
> Drain cleaners do have their place in the pecking order of the pipe trades. BUT
> 
> They should not overstep their bounds, by messing with ANY plumbing piping or fixture removal.
> 
> People are people yes, licensed plumbers are people who went the extra mile to serve an apprenticeship and grab the brass ring.
> 
> As long as drain cleaners know their place in the pecking order of the pipe trades, I have no problem.



YES THANKS THAT IS ALL THAT I AM SAYING,
IF THEY WANT TO DO PLUMBING THEN GET THE PROPER LICENSE :thumbup:


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## SlickRick

Jerrymac, 1989 to 2009 is not 35 yrs?


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## MACPLUMB777

I STARTED PLUMBING MARCH 1975,

FOR OVER 30 YEARS I WORKED 12 - 14 HOUR DAYS 6 & 1/2 DAYS A WEEK

INCLUDING "ALL" HOLIDAYS, FAMILY BIRTHDAYS ETC, ANNIVERSARY'S

INCLUDED IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME I CAN YOU GIVE BOTH MY EX WIVES

CONTACT INFORMATION AND THEY WILL TELL YOU THAT THEY CALLED

MY PAGER/CELL PHONE THE "BEST" FORM OF BIRTH CONTROL KNOWN TO MAN ! 

BECAUSE I WENT WHERE "DOCTORS FEAR TO TREAD ! ! :thumbup:

BECAUSE I MADE HOUSE CALLS 24/7 ! ! 

SO I CHALLENGE YOU TO ADD UP ALL THOSE HOURS AND FIGURE HOW MANY

8AM-5PM MON - FRI WORK YEARS THAT ADDS UP TO ?

I PLANE JUST QUIT COUNTING AFTER THE FIRST 1/2 DOZEN YEARS


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## SlickRick

JERRYMAC said:


> I STARTED PLUMBING MARCH 1975,
> 
> FOR OVER 30 YEARS I WORKED 12 - 14 HOUR DAYS 6 & 1/2 DAYS A WEEK
> 
> INCLUDING "ALL" HOLIDAYS, FAMILY BIRTHDAYS ETC, ANNIVERSARY'S
> 
> INCLUDED IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME I CAN YOU GIVE BOTH MY EX WIVES
> 
> CONTACT INFORMATION AND THEY WILL TELL YOU THAT THEY CALLED
> 
> MY PAGER/CELL PHONE THE "BEST" FORM OF BIRTH CONTROL KNOWN TO MAN !
> 
> BECAUSE I WENT WHERE "DOCTORS FEAR TO TREAD ! ! :thumbup:
> 
> BECAUSE I MADE HOUSE CALLS 24/7 ! !
> 
> SO I CHALLENGE YOU TO ADD UP ALL THOSE HOURS AND FIGURE HOW MANY
> 
> 8AM-5PM MON - FRI WORK YEARS THAT ADDS UP TO ?
> 
> I PLANE JUST QUIT COUNTING AFTER THE FIRST 1/2 DOZEN YEARS


Well change that 1989 to 1939... I'm just sayin' :laughing:

Our license # may be close M 13745


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## RealLivePlumber

Thats funny. I know a guy who went to the state Board of Master Plumbers, and applied to sit for the test. He went after year 2 of a 5 year program. 

Told them he worked alot of overtime, 3 years worth, and wants his license now, 3 years early....

Man, they got a good laugh out of that. Sent him packing.

See you in three years, chief.


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## Song Dog

ILPlumber said:


> I bash drain people (that do plumbing).
> 
> Drain cleaners do have their place in the pecking order of the pipe trades. BUT
> 
> They should not overstep their bounds, by messing with ANY plumbing piping or fixture removal.
> 
> People are people yes, licensed plumbers are people who went the extra mile to serve an apprenticeship and grab the brass ring.
> 
> As long as drain cleaners know their place in the pecking order of the pipe trades, I have no problem.


Well put. Anytime plumbing is being altered (pull stool-take trap off) is against the law. They do it all the time. Do I have an issue with taking a trap off to clear a vanity????????? Maybe not, but yes in a way. Give them an inch and they will push the envelope and take a 100. 

In Christ,

Song Dog


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## Turd Burglar

I think they should be licensed. I do a lot of drain work, but I am a licensed plumber too, so I can protect the health of my customers when I repipe their drain to code, etc.
A drain-cleaner without a plumbing license is little more than a maintenance man imo. There is one company in town like that, the rest are licensed companies. We all play by the rules, except that one company has been getting away with it for years! Oh well, at least I can legally replace a sewerline, they have to give it away to a licensed plumber if they can't open it, or maybe they replace it illegally, but I hope not! I been behind their work, they like to drill holes in sewerlines and leave them like that! Its a health hazard! They'd know that if they were educated and licensed.


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## bchplumbing

I have found a lot of homes in my area with holes drilled into them to accept a drill drumed hand cleaner then duct taped over. I hate it when I find these. I imediatly replace the fitting and tell the home owner not to let drain cleaners do that. 

The last one I found like that the septic tank back up and out the hole it came and flooded the bar area. What a stinking mess.

Although my area doesn't require you to be licensed to plumb or drain clean it's nice to have just to show your customers that you care enough to protect them. 

I do a lot of drain cleaning. I spent three years with a master drain cleaner and plumber. He taught me every thing he knows about clearing drains. He spent 30 years with Roto Rooter in Philly and was one of the first plumber/drain cleaners with the company.

I have a lot of respect for drain cleaners. they put up with a lot Sh**.


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## user4

Chicago code requires that all drain cleaning to be done by a licensed plumber, or someone that possesses a drainlayers license, and the drainlayers license allows you to work from an outdoor cleanout only. This is not well enforced, but it does leave an easy opening to go after companies that do sub standard work or those that are trying to do unlicensed plumbing work.


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## retired rooter

Back n the 70s I worked for a union company that had a non union service dept.I rode with old roto rooter man who had had a heart attach , who started with first RR franchise in bham but moved over to plumbing co as the (sewer man) for more money.I worked hard learned and studied my code book .Passed journeyman test 2nd try and 3 yrs later passed masters after flunking it twice .In our state the non union guys could take masters after holding journeyman 1 year in those days.I got involved with the other rooter franchise and ended up owning it for a couple of years When I left (plumbing co) my employer he wished me well helped me stock my truck(he gave me stuff I never stole from him) and told me I was welcome back anytime.Never looked back, never bankruped ___ and to you guys getting started NEVER FRANCHISE


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## Ashleymc

Well ..if you like bread being taking off your table by unliscenced, unregulated,uninsured drain slobs ..so be it..

Heres the deal..We screw up we face the Plumbing board,who are quick to hand out $1000 fines..

THEY screw up..theres no regulating authority..no penalties..nothing!
Now how do you feel about "drain slobs"??


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## user2091

i don't mess with other peoples poo so go at it. just don't do, add or remove any part of a plumbing system.


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## affordabledrain

here is my take. What if they are insured bonded. and do not do any otheer plumbing be sides clear drain and sewer blockages? Are they still bad people?


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## Master Mark

*Same story here*



bigdaddyplumber said:


> i don't mess with other peoples poo so go at it. just don't do, add or remove any part of a plumbing system.


The reason that their are un-regulated drain guys is very simple....

because plumbers " on average " dont like doing that kind of work....

I cant even find guys that I would trust to do a clean decent job in someones home anyway........

*At least in Indiana* their seems to be a difference between the fellows that like to do plumbing and the ones that only like to grind away in tree roots all day long.....

and you can see it in the way they dress and look too....basic skill levels....

I refer all my sewer work away to a couple of companies in town that have un-lisc guys go out and do the work....one or two a week.

I dont even get a x-mas card from them either
.....but they both owe me big time.......
.and they know some day the Godfather will ask for a favor in return..



Personally....
*I dont like* carrying a 400 lb spartan drain cleaner down a flight of 'white carpeted" stairs to clean out a sewer line..in a pretty basement.
*I dont like* looking for a clean out plug in the front yard with a foot of snow on the ground in -5 temp....



I am lucky that my phone rings enough that I can send all this grizzley nasty work packing ...


..


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## Bollinger plumber

The biggest problem I have with drain cleaners that have no plumbing background is the fact that they have no concept of what is behind that wall or under ground. When they go do a job they will tell ho's things that totally wrong and when the real plumber gets there to fix the problem it is very difficult to convince the ho's that what the drain cleaner told them is totally wrong. The ho's look at you as if you are trying to cheat them out of thier hard earned money. I have run across this several times. an example of this is recently I went to a ladies house where a drain cleaner had been there before. He told her that her sewer went out at a certain place. I went there and put my camera in and located the line and it came out at a totally different place. It showed it coming out of the house and going under a coy pond then turning and going under the driveway. I even probed it since it was only 18 inches deep to assure myself that I was right. The ho absolutely refused to belive me. I tried like heck to convince her that the other guy was wrong but she got so flustered with me she called the shop on me. My super called me ask me what was going on I explained it to him and he told me to start digging where she wanted. Well after digging for about 3 hrs and not finding any pipe and totally ruining her landscaping I told the lady the pipe was not there. she still insisted it was and again called the shop on me. I was then directed to leave the job. A few days later I drove by the house and there was another plumber there digging where I told her the pipe was and within 15 minutes he had found the pipe and the problem and was fixing it (they broke the pipe when installing the coy pond). The ho came out while I was talking to the plumber and I couldn't resist looking her in the eye and saying I told you so.:laughing: She said she was going to call the shop on me and I said I don't care as long as you tell them I was right all along. I love it when I am right. 
But anyway my point is that drain cleaners have thier place and they do provide a good service to help protect the health of the people but do not go beyond your expertise.


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## UnclogNH

Bollinger plumber said:


> The biggest problem I have with drain cleaners that have no plumbing background is the fact that they have no concept of what is behind that wall or under ground. When they go do a job they will tell ho's things that totally wrong and when the real plumber gets there to fix the problem it is very difficult to convince the ho's that what the drain cleaner told them is totally wrong. The ho's look at you as if you are trying to cheat them out of thier hard earned money. I have run across this several times. an example of this is recently I went to a ladies house where a drain cleaner had been there before. He told her that her sewer went out at a certain place. I went there and put my camera in and located the line and it came out at a totally different place. It showed it coming out of the house and going under a coy pond then turning and going under the driveway. I even probed it since it was only 18 inches deep to assure myself that I was right. The ho absolutely refused to belive me. I tried like heck to convince her that the other guy was wrong but she got so flustered with me she called the shop on me. My super called me ask me what was going on I explained it to him and he told me to start digging where she wanted. Well after digging for about 3 hrs and not finding any pipe and totally ruining her landscaping I told the lady the pipe was not there. she still insisted it was and again called the shop on me. I was then directed to leave the job. A few days later I drove by the house and there was another plumber there digging where I told her the pipe was and within 15 minutes he had found the pipe and the problem and was fixing it (they broke the pipe when installing the coy pond). The ho came out while I was talking to the plumber and I couldn't resist looking her in the eye and saying I told you so.:laughing: She said she was going to call the shop on me and I said I don't care as long as you tell them I was right all along. I love it when I am right.
> But anyway my point is that drain cleaners have thier place and they do provide a good service to help protect the health of the people but do not go beyond your expertise.


 

Had this problem back when I worked for RR. I was hired as a fourth year apprentice and got my journeymen's while at RR. Had to do both Service plumbing and drain cleaning. Started learning plumbing at a tech/high school. Then a little shop for 4 years then was hired at RR and attended the Peterson school of plumbing in Ma, Having plumbing experience makes a world of difference. Know what's going on in the wall Back to backs, Drum traps, running traps copper to galvi etc. We had what we called Roto Tards people who could buy a van train for eight weeks then off to the races. Love when they would run into a buried house trap, Back to back sink or tub :blink:.
There are some companies both sides of the fence Plumbers, Drain companies that are good at what they do. Then there are the scum hacks.


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## SewerRatz

My father is a drain cleaner, has been for a long time. He can out locate, and rod any plumber out there. As far as I can remember, he always got called in by plumbers to do drain cleaning, locates and sewer repairs. 

*Bollinger plumber,* the drain cleaner you followed behind made the number one mistake guessing where the pipe runs. Never assume anything. Now my dad could walk outside look at the ground and nine times out of ten he could tell you where the trench line is.

I will give you an example of assuming where the sewer / problem spot is.
Back in the day, before we all had sewer cameras, I was called out to power rod a main line. The sewer if you passed it off from the clean out to the city sewer it should take about 100' of rod to clear the line. Well I got to 80' and just could not get through. I tried every cutter I could think off, even tried a sectional machine. So the city inspector sent out a village idiot to watch me rod and agreed it had to be dug up. 

Now I offered to locate the sewer the home owner and the village idiot both said no, 80 puts me just in the street. All I said yes it would as long as the line runs straight out. The city take responsibility from the sidewalk on to the stub. So they locate the stub and traced it over to the parkway and dug up the sewer. I later get a call saying the line was open from the park way to the city sewer, and they hired a plumber and he said the blockage was 60' back from the parkway which put us in front of the house. Then they said they are going to send me a bill for 6 grand. 

Of course I came back and said, "Did any one locate where 80' puts you from the clean out in the house?" They said no, that they didn't need to. So I told them let me run my locater through the line and trace the sewer. Turns out the sewer went out the back of the house turned and then went to the side then out to the front. So 80' put me 5' shy of the front of the house. The pipe at 80' was broken due to the home owner digging there cutting a hole in the 6" clay pipe and inserting a 3 PVC pipe into the sewer which was for his sump pump discharge.

The city ended up charging the home owner for the digging they did and fining them for an illegal hook up to the sewer.


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## UnclogNH

We have this problem up here. No record of where the sewers run or hook up to the city sewer. 
I called them up. Do you know where this sewer runs? Installed mid 80s my guess. No but if you find out let us know 
They don't take pictures or log info after a dig and repair or full sewer replacement for future reference.


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## SewerRatz

Ashleymc said:


> Well ..if you like bread being taking off your table by unliscenced, unregulated,uninsured drain slobs ..so be it..
> 
> Heres the deal..We screw up we face the Plumbing board,who are quick to hand out $1000 fines..
> 
> THEY screw up..theres no regulating authority..no penalties..nothing!
> Now how do you feel about "drain slobs"??


 You know my grandfather was a sewer and drain cleaner, my father is a sewer and drain cleaner, they never touched plumbing what so ever. They have always carried general liability insurance and always was bonded. They also always pulled permits to do sewer repairs. In the City of Chicago it is required to call in a $20.00 sewer rodding permit, my father always has done that and till this day still does it.


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## Bollinger plumber

SewerRatz said:


> My father is a drain cleaner, has been for a long time. He can out locate, and rod any plumber out there. As far as I can remember, he always got called in by plumbers to do drain cleaning, locates and sewer repairs.
> 
> *Bollinger plumber,* the drain cleaner you followed behind made the number one mistake guessing where the pipe runs. Never assume anything. Now my dad could walk outside look at the ground and nine times out of ten he could tell you where the trench line is.
> 
> I will give you an example of assuming where the sewer / problem spot is.
> Back in the day, before we all had sewer cameras, I was called out to power rod a main line. The sewer if you passed it off from the clean out to the city sewer it should take about 100' of rod to clear the line. Well I got to 80' and just could not get through. I tried every cutter I could think off, even tried a sectional machine. So the city inspector sent out a village idiot to watch me rod and agreed it had to be dug up.
> 
> Now I offered to locate the sewer the home owner and the village idiot both said no, 80 puts me just in the street. All I said yes it would as long as the line runs straight out. The city take responsibility from the sidewalk on to the stub. So they locate the stub and traced it over to the parkway and dug up the sewer. I later get a call saying the line was open from the park way to the city sewer, and they hired a plumber and he said the blockage was 60' back from the parkway which put us in front of the house. Then they said they are going to send me a bill for 6 grand.
> 
> Of course I came back and said, "Did any one locate where 80' puts you from the clean out in the house?" They said no, that they didn't need to. So I told them let me run my locater through the line and trace the sewer. Turns out the sewer went out the back of the house turned and then went to the side then out to the front. So 80' put me 5' shy of the front of the house. The pipe at 80' was broken due to the home owner digging there cutting a hole in the 6" clay pipe and inserting a 3 PVC pipe into the sewer which was for his sump pump discharge.
> 
> The city ended up charging the home owner for the digging they did and fining them for an illegal hook up to the sewer.


Ron I have no doubt about your fathers abilities and I commend him on it. But he is the exception to the rule. I am sure that if he didn't know where it was he would tell the ho that instead of guessing at it. I myself can pretty much tell where a sewer line runs by the color of the grass, location of the main sewer line tap or septic system or a slight depression in the ground. This was not the case on the job I mentioned in the other post. They had landscaped it with mulch and bushes and other decorations such as the coy pond and a good part of the rest of the sewer was run under a concrete driveway. That makes it pretty hard to judge where the sewer runs in that case I don't care how good you are. All I was saying is that if a drain cleaner doesn't know for sure where the line comes out then he should let someone who has the means and experience do it. I am sure you have come across a job when you get there the ho will tell you " well so and so told me the problems was right here. " Then you run the camera or rodder in and find that the problem is elsewhere and you try to convince the ho that it is elsewhere, and ho keeps saying well thats not what so and so said and no matter what you tell them the ho keeps referring back to so and so. The thing is so and so has planted something in thier head and no matter how much you try to explain to them that so and so was wrong they refuse to believe you because they heard it from him first. Something else that I didn't mention in the other post is that this lady wanted us to pay for the repair of the landscaping where I had dug up because I dug where the drain cleaner had said it came out. Which started one heck of an arguement which could have been avoided if the drain cleaner had simply said he didn't know where it came out. I am not trying to discredit drain cleaners, I actually commend them for doing the job they do. a lot of plumbers would not even think about wading in knee deep raw sewage to open a line. I am one myself now, I am just saying that if they don't have the means or the experience to accurately locate the problem then they should leave it up to some one who can and not plant ideas into the ho's head. I also feel that the means and experience comes from some knowledge and a background in the installation of plumbing systems. Most drain cleaners i know do have a background in plumbing but as most of us here know a lot of them do not. I too remember the days when cameras and locators were not around and a lot times I would misjudge where the sewer came out but that was then and this is now and now we have the technology to accurately locate sewer lines in most cases. Now the drain cleaner I mentioned in the above post was not that far off(about 5 ft.) but when you are digging up bushes that your great great grand mother planted or a japanese maple that cost about 1500 dollars 5 ft makes a big difference.


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## Bollinger plumber

Ashleymc said:


> Well ..if you like bread being taking off your table by unliscenced, unregulated,uninsured drain slobs ..so be it..
> 
> Heres the deal..We screw up we face the Plumbing board,who are quick to hand out $1000 fines..
> 
> THEY screw up..theres no regulating authority..no penalties..nothing!
> Now how do you feel about "drain slobs"??


 I think this post was totally uncalled for. What right do you have calling these people drain slobs. Most plumbers that I know would not even think about touching a sewer snake or camera much less plunge a toilet. Most drain cleaners do not install plumbing nor design plumbing system so why should they have a plumbers license. I believe they should be regulated and at least have a business license but if they are not installing or designing plumbing systems why should they have to pay for a plumbing license. They are not a threat to us or our profession if they follow the rules. When I was in Maryland I believe you had to have a drain cleaners license and the only thing they were allowed to touch were sink traps toilets and clean outs. I see nothing wrong with that. They are simply there to protect the people of a health and sanitary hazards. well I am getting off track here. I guess my point is that calling people "drain slobs" that do a service for people to protect thier health is very wrong. It is an insult to me, unclog sewer rat and his father and grandfather not to mention many other guys on this forum. I think you could have gotten your point across without making insulting and derogatory statements about us and our profession that we chose to provide people because we care about how they live.


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## user2091

Master Mark said:


> The reason that their are un-regulated drain guys is very simple....
> 
> because plumbers " on average " dont like doing that kind of work....
> 
> I cant even find guys that I would trust to do a clean decent job in someones home anyway........
> 
> *At least in Indiana* their seems to be a difference between the fellows that like to do plumbing and the ones that only like to grind away in tree roots all day long.....
> 
> and you can see it in the way they dress and look too....basic skill levels....
> 
> I refer all my sewer work away to a couple of companies in town that have un-lisc guys go out and do the work....one or two a week.
> 
> I dont even get a x-mas card from them either
> .....but they both owe me big time.......
> .and they know some day the Godfather will ask for a favor in return..
> 
> 
> 
> Personally....
> *I dont like* carrying a 400 lb spartan drain cleaner down a flight of 'white carpeted" stairs to clean out a sewer line..in a pretty basement.
> *I dont like* looking for a clean out plug in the front yard with a foot of snow on the ground in -5 temp....
> 
> 
> 
> I am lucky that my phone rings enough that I can send all this grizzley nasty work packing ...
> 
> 
> ..


:thumbup: well put. i won't even do my own sewer. the city or i call the landlord! get at it boy you fit the description! then i supervise from afar!!!!! it's always 4:20 at that time!:blink::thumbsup::yes:


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## Bollinger plumber

Master Mark said:


> The reason that their are un-regulated drain guys is very simple....
> 
> because plumbers " on average " dont like doing that kind of work....
> 
> I cant even find guys that I would trust to do a clean decent job in someones home anyway........
> 
> *At least in Indiana* their seems to be a difference between the fellows that like to do plumbing and the ones that only like to grind away in tree roots all day long.....
> 
> and you can see it in the way they dress and look too....basic skill levels....
> 
> I refer all my sewer work away to a couple of companies in town that have un-lisc guys go out and do the work....one or two a week.
> 
> I dont even get a x-mas card from them either
> .....but they both owe me big time.......
> .and they know some day the Godfather will ask for a favor in return..
> 
> 
> 
> Personally....
> *I dont like* carrying a 400 lb spartan drain cleaner down a flight of 'white carpeted" stairs to clean out a sewer line..in a pretty basement.
> *I dont like* looking for a clean out plug in the front yard with a foot of snow on the ground in -5 temp....
> 
> 
> 
> I am lucky that my phone rings enough that I can send all this grizzley nasty work packing ...
> 
> 
> ..


Well you gave your reason for not doing sewer and drain work and you did it honestly,properly and respectfully and I in turn respect you for that. I didn't care for the remark about how they dress and look but I have seen many drain cleaners who don't care about thier appearance so I can't really argue with you there. I always wear protective clothing to keep myself clean for the next job. I am always clean shaven when going to a customers house and keep a change of clothes in the truck just in case. But that is me can't speak for all drain cleaners. I decided to go into sewer and dain cleaning because I figured it was the fastest and easiest way to get myself established in business.
Now you gave your reasons for not cleaing drians, let me give my reasons as to why I went into drain and service work. 

Commerical
1. Walking on concrete floors all day is too hard on my old knees hip and back.
2. I don't like being stuck on the same job everyday for months and in some cases years.
3. I like dealing with people and meeting them and building a friendship
4. Dealing with G.C. that always seem to know your job better than you.
5. Its always hurry hurry hurry
Residential
1. The houses aregetting bigger and more spread out and the bosses expect you to do the plumbing in them as fast as you do a simple rambler on a slab or crawl space. 
2. The ho's change thier mind as often as you change a new born babies diaper and expect you to change your rough in work free of charge.
3. The architects allow for electrical and duct work but screw the plumber. 
4.The ho's and builders pick these fixtures that take 3 days just to figure out which way is up and expect you to install it in the same time as a standard 4 or 8 inch center set.
5. Its always hurry hurry hurry.


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## service guy

You guys who hate drain work make me laugh! I am a licensed plumber, I can do my pick from new construction, remodels, plumbing repair or drain work. The drain work makes me the most money bar none.:thumbsup: Of course it is hard, nasty work and the equipment is mucho dinero, and there are a lot of guys out there giving it away, but its a business I enjoy. I carry a $9,000 seesnake and locator at all times. I carry around $7,000 in other drain equipment, and I charge accordingly for my services. I am soon investing in a jetting machine, probably for around $12,000-$15,000.

I still do lots of plumbing repairs, sewer replacements, water services, water heaters and all other plumbing service work, so of course I am licensed, but I consider myself a FAR BETTER service plumber because of the drain work.
As far as I am concerned, drain work IS plumbing service. *So any service plumber should be able to do drains, or they are just leaving money on the table.*


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## para1

i FIND MOST PLUMBERS THAT SAY THEY DON'T DO DRAIN WORK, DON'T KNOW DRAIN WORK.


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## Master Mark

*I will leave it on the table*



service guy said:


> You guys who hate drain work make me laugh! I . *So any service plumber should be able to do drains, or they are just leaving money on the table.*


 
Their is good money in drain cleaning
I have done miles and miles of it.....all the small stuff.
we cleaned out a kitchen drain today, no big deal..$150. . I am usually too busy to get involved in them, but on average , the small lines are generally not that difficult...unless you go up the roof vent ... then its always the "crying game" 

we have 4 Rigid K 50 small sewer machines , three of them are about worn out ...and we probably have 4 95 foot reels of the snap together cable ....all nice and rusty.....

What I cannot bring myself to do are the larger main lines.... and get myself tied up in a job all day long when I got other things to do..

it does not seem cost affective to me to grind away on a bunch of sewer roots for 3 hours when I got 2 water heaters to install


I am glad for you that you can do it all.. 100% full service......
but as you stated *YOU *carry all this expensive equipment in your truck... 
*You *are doing the lugging of this stuff around, up and down flights of stairs, 
not your employees.... its your body that might wear out from this someday


I cant find guys I am willing to trust to do that work in a clean 
and efficient manner that makes me money..

a good 40% of the main sewer calls are always trouble...
especially when you are the fourth guy to try to clean out 
that line in "dog-patch--shantyville".. 
of course they dont tell you that you are plumber #4 till you
have given up , and they dont expect a bill 



so I dont feel that I am leaving much on the table 

I have come to the realization that I cant do it all, all the time
all day long. every day ...I would rather fight the easy battles
and come home victorious every day, 

so this sewer work had to go...

.....


----------



## Redwood

Bollinger plumber said:


> I think this post was totally uncalled for. What right do you have calling these people drain slobs. Most plumbers that I know would not even think about touching a sewer snake or camera much less plunge a toilet. Most drain cleaners do not install plumbing nor design plumbing system so why should they have a plumbers license. I believe they should be regulated and at least have a business license but if they are not installing or designing plumbing systems why should they have to pay for a plumbing license. They are not a threat to us or our profession if they follow the rules. When I was in Maryland I believe you had to have a drain cleaners license and the only thing they were allowed to touch were sink traps toilets and clean outs. I see nothing wrong with that. They are simply there to protect the people of a health and sanitary hazards. well I am getting off track here. I guess my point is that calling people "drain slobs" that do a service for people to protect thier health is very wrong. It is an insult to me, unclog sewer rat and his father and grandfather not to mention many other guys on this forum. I think you could have gotten your point across without making insulting and derogatory statements about us and our profession that we chose to provide people because we care about how they live.


I can vouch for what AshleyMC is talking about...
Here in Connecticut Drain Cleaners are not licensed...

If a person calls a company with rooter in their name that also advertises they are plumbers you have better than even odds the person showing up for the plumbing work you requested a plumber for is nothing more than a drain cleaner that is a graduate of the companies 6 weeks ago I couldn't spell plumber now I are one training program...

They may have licensed plumbers working for the company but it doesn't mean that you will get one...

Just a fact of life here in Connecticut...


----------



## Bollinger plumber

Redwood said:


> I can vouch for what AshleyMC is talking about...
> Here in Connecticut Drain Cleaners are not licensed...
> 
> If a person calls a company with rooter in their name that also advertises they are plumbers you have better than even odds the person showing up for the plumbing work you requested a plumber for is nothing more than a drain cleaner that is a graduate of the companies 6 weeks ago I couldn't spell plumber now I are one training program...
> 
> They may have licensed plumbers working for the company but it doesn't mean that you will get one...
> 
> Just a fact of life here in Connecticut...


I am not objecting to his point of view i am objecting to the way he got it across. I did not appreciate him referring to people that do drain work as slobs. As I stated in another post I use protective clothing to keep clean I wear rubber or latex gloves, I clean my equipment and myself after everyjob so there fore I did not appreciate being called a slob. I know a lot of them may be but I am not. but enough said about it he got his point across and I got mine as far as I am concerned its done.


----------



## TheMaster

A few companies around here were stealing our helpers,paying them 3 or 4 more dollars an hour and putting them on their own truck to do service. No plumbing license or anything. They did it for years...we never reported them. We hoped one day rolling the dice would catch up with them and it did...more than once. My point is its not just drain cleaners that hire people without a license to do plumbing work. PEOPLE will do anything they can get away with has been my experience not just drain cleaners...its a people problem.


----------



## Ashleymc

Hold on a minute..I do drain cleaning too ..its a big profit item,not my fav but a good backup when things slow..
Lic. plumbers wake up ..these drain companys are stealing money from your pockets.
Dont mind that ? Well thats your opinion,not mine..
Me? I jumped through ALL the hurdles to be a master plumber which gives me the right to do plumbing/drain service for profit.

"Drain slobs" to me are the ones with NO credentials and therefore have no regulatory boards to over sight their actions or mischeivious business practices.
So why should "drain slobs" have the right to do ANY of the type of work I spent years training and testing for..Not to mention carrying insurance ,lic renewals that just doubled here in Ct. and required continuing ed every other year.
Customers call these slobs in for drain service due to their cheap price advertising and later on expect us to work for those same printed rates! They see no difference and assume these slobs "are liscenced"..and i dont blame em in a way.
Thats just some of the reasons i call unliscenced drain cleaners "drain slobs"
They are picking my pocket and we are letting them.


----------



## SewerRatz

Ashleymc said:


> Hold on a minute..I do drain cleaning too ..its a big profit item,not my fav but a good backup when things slow..
> Lic. plumbers wake up ..these drain companys are stealing money from your pockets.
> Dont mind that ? Well thats your opinion,not mine..
> Me? I jumped through ALL the hurdles to be a master plumber which gives me the right to do plumbing/drain service for profit.
> 
> "Drain slobs" to me are the ones with NO credentials and therefore have no regulatory boards to over sight their actions or mischeivious business practices.
> So why should "drain slobs" have the right to do ANY of the type of work I spent years training and testing for..Not to mention carrying insurance ,lic renewals that just doubled here in Ct. and required continuing ed every other year.
> 
> 
> Customers call these slobs in for drain service due to their cheap price advertising and later on expect us to work for those same printed rates! They see no difference and assume these slobs "are liscenced"..and i dont blame em in a way.
> Thats just some of the reasons i call unliscenced drain cleaners "drain slobs"
> They are picking my pocket and we are letting them.


OK you are calling my father and grandfather a drain slob. Granted Chicago requires a drain layers license to do power rodding. But they also did work outside of Chicago all through Cook, Du Page, Kane, and Will counties which there is no required license to do sewer and drain cleaning. I started out as an unlicensed drain cleaner, let me repeat that just in case you can not get it through your holyer then thou attitude I STARTED OUT AS AN UNLICENSED DRAIN CLEANER!

So I take great offence to your posts.


----------



## SewerRatz

*Ashleymc* Tell me what kind of guarantee do you give your customers for your sewer and drain cleaning? 

My father has always gave a 2 year written guarantee on all his rodding jobs. It was phrased "Guaranteed One free power rodding if the above line blocks within 2 years" That was back when he used to flat rate all his jobs. Now that we are T&M it changed a little, it says "Guaranteed One labor free rodding if the above line blocks within 2 years" So we still get a $60 Service call but they do not have to pay our $160 per hour labor rate. Till this day arrogant plumbers like you tell me and my father we are ruining the business with that guarantee. But if they are a licensed plumber thinks he is that much better than a drain slob, why doesn't he guarantee is drain cleaning like us drain slobs?


----------



## service guy

Master Mark said:


> I am glad for you that you can do it all.. 100% full service......
> but as you stated *YOU *carry all this expensive equipment in your truck...
> *You *are doing the lugging of this stuff around, up and down flights of stairs,
> not your employees.... its your body that might wear out from this someday
> 
> 
> I cant find guys I am willing to trust to do that work in a clean
> and efficient manner that makes me money..


I see your point. My employee has over 20 years experience and he is every bit as efficient as myself. Of course he costs me more money than your average joe-plumber, but he gets the jobs done and done right. So I have no problem with him doing any type of plumbing for the company. Both trucks carry drain equipment, and I am young enough to be manning a service truck myself. When I get older I will either have to find more good employees or retire from it and give it up.:wheelchair:


----------



## affordabledrain

Isn't drain cleaning part of service plumbing?
I believed it is. When going thru my apprenticeship I has to learn drain cleaning. I am pretty sure most of you had to learn it also. Why would any service plumber want to leave all the potential revenue out there. By not offering drain cleaning as one of there services? 

True the basic equipment is expensive to start up. I know I have at least $ 1100 invested in my equipment and I am still looking for more equipment to buy. In 2 months time this equipment has paid for itself all ready.


----------



## M5Plumb

A fellow plumber friend here in PDX subs out all his drain work, he just plumbs...To each their own I suppose.:thumbsup:



affordabledrain said:


> Isn't drain cleaning part of service plumbing?
> I believed it is. When going thru my apprenticeship I has to learn drain cleaning. I am pretty sure most of you had to learn it also. Why would any service plumber want to leave all the potential revenue out there. By not offering drain cleaning as one of there services?
> 
> True the basic equipment is expensive to start up. I know I have at least $ 1100 invested in my equipment and I am still looking for more equipment to buy. In 2 months time this equipment has paid for itself all ready.


----------



## ILPlumber

Ashleymc said:


> Hold on a minute..I do drain cleaning too ..its a big profit item,not my fav but a good backup when things slow..
> Lic. plumbers wake up ..these drain companys are stealing money from your pockets.
> Dont mind that ? Well thats your opinion,not mine..
> Me? I jumped through ALL the hurdles to be a master plumber which gives me the right to do plumbing/drain service for profit.
> 
> "Drain slobs" to me are the ones with NO credentials and therefore have no regulatory boards to over sight their actions or mischeivious business practices.
> So why should "drain slobs" have the right to do ANY of the type of work I spent years training and testing for..Not to mention carrying insurance ,lic renewals that just doubled here in Ct. and required continuing ed every other year.
> Customers call these slobs in for drain service due to their cheap price advertising and later on expect us to work for those same printed rates! They see no difference and assume these slobs "are liscenced"..and i dont blame em in a way.
> Thats just some of the reasons i call unliscenced drain cleaners "drain slobs"
> They are picking my pocket and we are letting them.


Hi folks. 
Let's drop the drain slobs conversation. It is moronic to lump an entire profession into one big pile of "slobs". So, let's not do that. 

I really don't like to close threads BUT, I will if this continues. Thanks.


----------



## stillaround

If this were a survey I would vote that drain cleaners should be licensed plumbers. 
But as always, the best business people seem to outshine the others. The trade has lost by giving up areas of work when being too busy. 
If I remember correctly, forced air heat was plumbers domain that was given to the fitters in Chicago. As well as drain laying to the laborers.
Im just repeating other points but I dont want it made easy for them to take work away.


----------



## MACPLUMB777

ilplumber said:


> hi Folks.
> Let's Drop The Drain Slobs Conversation. It Is Moronic To Lump An Entire Profession Into One Big Pile Of "slobs". So, Let's Not Do That.
> 
> I Really Don't Like To Close Threads But, I Will If This Continues. Thanks.



Wow It Is Good To See This Topic Still Going ! !

And For The Record The Point I Was Trying To Make Is What The Il. Plumber Just Posted Do Not Lump All Drain Cleaners In The Same Pit 

As Ron The Sewer Ratz Has Made The Point A Lot Of Good Master Plumbers Started Out As Un-licensed Drain Cleaners !

As For Me I Would Rather Go Snake The Nistest Sewer Or Main Line
Then Go Home At Noon And Lose A 1/2 Days Pay, And This Has Happened Because Plumbers I Worked For Turned Away Drain Calls !

BESIDES WHICH A LOT OF DRAIN CALLS TURN INTO "MAJOR" PLUMBING
JOBS,
ONE I WAS INVOLVED IN WHILE RUNNING A SHOP IN LOS ANGELS
RAN IN TO THE 100,000 DOLLAR RANGE AND OF COURSE I WAS LICENSED TO DO WORK "BUT" IT ALL STARTED WITH A DRAIN CALL
THAT THE BIG ROOTER CO. WALKED AWAY FROM ! !
BUT BECAUSE I WAS WILLING TO SPEND THE TIME RUNNING MY SPARTAN 1065 FOR 3 OR 4 HOURS AT NITE ON A HOLIDAY WEEKEND 
I GOT THE BIG JOB,
AND A REPUTATION FOR ALWAYS CLEARING A BLOCKAGE EVEN IF IT 
MEANS REPLACING 280' X 6" CLAY SEWER UNDER A DRIVE WAY AND 
KEEPING THE DRIVE WAY OPEN FOR THE TENANTS WHILE WORK GOING
ON 

JERRY THE MAC MASTER PLUMBER AND MASTER DRAINMAN !


----------



## MACPLUMB777

AND YES MASTER MARK THAT IS WHY I AM ON DISABILITY STARTING AT

THE TENDER AGE OF 53 YEARS YOUNG !


----------



## Ashleymc

*Ah, love the smell of a good controversey in the morning..*

haha:laughing::laughing:

But it was never my intention to disrespect anyones family or especially grandpa..So I retract the term "drain slobs"
Semper Fi .. my friend


----------



## gear junkie

Came into this one late but just wanted to give a big thank you to all the plumbers that don't do drain cleaning. Makes more room for me.


----------



## Ashleymc

*drain garranty ??*

Are you kidding me?  Im gonna garantee after i clear a main that.. roots arent gonna grow back? paper towels dont get flushed? sanitary pads? used cat litter?? for 2 years??
give me a freakin break! 
Anyone wants to do that ..be my guest!! :laughing:


----------



## Bollinger plumber

I have to agree with ashley here. There is no way I would guarantee a stoppage there are to many things that can cause a sewer to stop up especially if they have kids flushing stretch armstrong down a toilet. I would think that would come back and bite you in the butt. The longest I warranty a stoppage is for 24 hrs and thats only if they refuse to let me do a on site camera call. What if the sewer had a huge offset joint or is running flat and a large belly in it. I have seen all of these several times. Of course these days with the cameras you can answer all these questions but I still would not give a 2 year guarantee. A good example of this is the THINGS YOU HAVE PULLED OUT OF A TOILET THREAD.Look at what some people have pulled out of there. When I was in D.C. I pulled a beach towel out of a sewer. How they got that in there I don't know but it was there.


----------



## SewerRatz

Well when it comes to abuse like a stretch Armstrong flushed down a water closet or tampons, paper towels, or anything else that should not be flushed down the water closet would void the guarantee.

As for tree roots, and build up in a sink line or even hair build up in a bath tub drain, it does not happen over night. We have been guaranteeing our drain roddings for the 2 year period since 1959. Yes we do run into the people that try to get one by on us once in a while, but they are very rare. We do explain to them how the Guarantee works and explain to them if the rod brings back evidence that the line was abused the guarantee is void.

If you do a proper drain cleaning there is no reason for the line to back up in less than 2 years unless if there is a problem in the pipe. For example a back pitch, a slightly separated pipe. or a cracked pipe. So if the line does back up in less than 2 years, I will come out and rerod the line then run my camera down the line to see if any of the above conditions are present. If I do find one, I then show it to the home owner and explain to them this is why it did not last the two years and it should be fixed.


You may think what about a broken pipe or collapsed pipe. If you are any sort of drain cleaner you would be able to tell if the pipe is broken with your rodding machine the first time you where there before you give the guarantee. So then you would televise the line and give them a price to repair the pipe. I then explain to them at that time I can not guarantee this line knowing there is a broken pipe.

I can tell you all this. The 20+ years I been rodding drains, I get at the most 2 to 3 recalls a year. You know why? It because I was taught by a sewer and drain cleaner. I know this is not being very modest at all, but I am the best at what I do and I know it. I get called in by many many plumbers in our area that tried to rod a drain for hours on end and never could get the line open, I come there and get the line going within the first half hour in most cases. There is a skill and you have to have the aptitude for drain cleaning. If you do not have the skill or the aptitude for it, then just leave it for us that do.


----------



## retired rooter

I started with RR in 71 IN 72 I was the sewer man for a union plumbing co.It killed me being called ,sewer man ,boy and all that so I studied ,and studied until I got my J then masters in both plumbing and gas.Could I rough a new bldg ?? nope But I wanted to be at the top in my field .When I put in water htrs,prvs,new sewers,water services they were done right.But way down deep I knew I could make more money cleaning drains,and I could!I tried running several trucks, but it wasnt me ,I wanted to work when I wanted and play when I wanted.Being legal is much easier than hiding,here in alabama we pay 250.00 per yr for our masters cards plg and gas, buy insurance, bonds, and licenses .The state is the main one, but every little po dunk town wants approx 100 for plumbing and 100 for gas some more .Thats where I hide some I simply cant go to every little city hall and say "I am going to mr or mrs [email protected] and fix her faucet and I wanna buy a license to work in your town maybe 1 or 2 times per yr .Thats where I hide ,The towns I am in alot ,I get the proper license ,IF I know I will only be there a time or two they are gonna have to catch me.My state ,1 big city, 4 little towns around my area, are plenty for me if thats what we call down here, bootlegging "IM GUILTY" and I still send jobs I dont want to my friends that do and they do the same for me ( ADDED FROM MY LAST POST)


----------



## ILPlumber

retired rooter said:


> I started with RR in 71 IN 72 I was the sewer man for a union plumbing co.
> 
> It killed me being called ,sewer man ,boy and all that so I studied ,and studied until I got my J then masters in both plumbing and gas.
> 
> Could I rough a new bldg ?? nope But I wanted to be at the top in my field .When I put in water htrs,prvs,new sewers,water services they were done right.But way down deep I knew I could make more money cleaning drains,and I could!
> 
> I tried running several trucks, but it wasnt me ,I wanted to work when I wanted and play when I wanted.Being legal is much easier than hiding,here in alabama we pay 250.00 per yr for our masters cards plg and gas, buy insurance, bonds, and licenses .
> 
> The state is the main one, but every little po dunk town wants approx 100 for plumbing and 100 for gas some more .
> 
> Thats where I hide some I simply cant go to every little city hall and say "I am going to mr or mrs [email protected] and fix her faucet and I wanna buy a license to work in your town maybe 1 or 2 times per yr .Thats where I hide ,
> 
> The towns I am in alot ,I get the proper license ,IF I know I will only be there a time or two they are gonna have to catch me.
> 
> My state ,1 big city, 4 little towns around my area, are plenty for me if thats what we call down here, bootlegging "IM GUILTY" and I still send jobs I dont want to my friends that do and they do the same for me ( ADDED FROM MY LAST POST)


...


----------



## SummPlumb

You can't touch any plumbing in GA without a license. We have a very good confidential way of turning unlicensed people in to the state and it happens often! 

I will add my 2 cents about drain cleaners in other states.

If you do not understand the installation of plumbing or how it works, how do you know how to diagnose drain problems? I don't know how many times I have been called out to a sewer lift station clogged to find a AAV vent air locked on top of it. 

But we are having our bouts with these so called "handymen" now.


----------



## holman23

here in illinois, you better not touch plumbing unless you have your license, it is a 5000.oo dollar fine to you and one to your employer if caught per job. i am a plumbing contractor with half my shop being drain cleaners, works great when the cleaners cant get it and it needs fixed i send a plumber, but it also works in reverse as well. i do think that it should be allowed to pull a water closet though since 75% of houses don't have cleanouts.


----------



## Roy

I also agree that in the correct pecking order drain people should just do basic fixture
stoppages with plungers, closet augers, and simple roof top applications. Far too many times I must repair all the incomplete work. The holes in clean out plugs, the kitchen sink two part waste systems, not understanding code complience with repairs, installations, and basic code book review. I often remind my customers that
for my service your paying someone who has been participated in a formal plumber/
pipefitting apprenticeship progam. First UA plumbing and pipefitting classes in 1979,
book work is great for a perfect world, in actual hands on situations the rubber meets
the road and doing the job right saves all your clients $$$$.


----------



## retired rooter

keep googleing matt you will be an EX pert in a few yrs


----------



## tungsten plumb

Anything is better than california. Any handyhack with a snake could drain clean as long as it stays under $500 bucks


----------



## ILPlumber

retired rooter said:


> keep googleing matt you will be an EX pert in a few yrs


What is a pert? I guess I'll be forced to google it. You will notice in my reply to your post, I used the ENTER key to make it somewhat readable.

So Eddie, you should really read your post after you are done typing it.

When you take a breath in between sentences. Hit the enter key. 

Ya just end up typing a run-on bunch of gobbledygook that doesn't make a damn bit of sense.


----------



## SewerRatz

Roy said:


> I also agree that in the correct pecking order drain people should just do basic fixture
> stoppages with plungers, closet augers, and simple roof top applications. Far too many times I must repair all the incomplete work. The holes in clean out plugs, the kitchen sink two part waste systems, not understanding code complience with repairs, installations, and basic code book review. I often remind my customers that
> for my service your paying someone who has been participated in a formal plumber/
> pipefitting apprenticeship progam. First UA plumbing and pipefitting classes in 1979,
> book work is great for a perfect world, in actual hands on situations the rubber meets
> the road and doing the job right saves all your clients $$$$.


Better not come to Chicago, as a plumber you can not clean sewers or drains... unless you have a City Sewer and Drain Layers license.

My father is not a plumber, and never had done any plumbing in his life. What he has done is sewer and drain cleaning for over 50 years. I will bet you he can out clean a sewer or drain compared to you any day.


----------



## TheMaster

Nothing worse than a drain cleaner thinking he is a plumber and most of them DO.


----------



## CSP Drain

Like someone mentioned earlier, it really depends on the person. They either have good practices and are ethical or are not. It happens in every profession. You have the good and the bad. Maybe bankers are all bad so that could be an exception.


----------



## AssTyme

TheMaster said:


> Nothing worse than a drain cleaner thinking he is a plumber and most of them DO.



Nothing worse than a rookie drain cleaner (me) making things right after a licensed plumber has worked on something 

Just like CSP Drain said, it all depends on the person


----------



## Redwood

TheMaster said:


> Nothing worse than a drain cleaner thinking he is a plumber and most of them DO.


In CT the state agrees...:thumbup:

http://www.ct.gov/dcp/cwp/view.asp?A=3618&Q=450806


----------



## Master Mark

*cleaned out a drain yesterday*

Oh my god....

I cleaned out a shower drain yesterday with my little
gereral Wire orange drum macnine....

it actually was pretty easy for a change of pace....

pulled back a nasty little furry thing on the end of my cable from all the ladies showering in the home.....

in and out of the house in 15 minutes $125.00

did another one last friday......too..... $150.00

I have paid for the machine again....

I dont know whats got into me.....:laughing::laughing:

hell, I might ever re-surrect my K-50 Rigid machine and
a 100 foot cable for my new truck now that I got the room
to spare.....................


nnnaaaaaaaaaaa... no way.........:laughing::laughing:


----------



## Redwood

Master Mark said:


> Oh my god....
> 
> I cleaned out a shower drain yesterday with my little
> gereral Wire orange drum macnine....
> 
> it actually was pretty easy for a change of pace....
> 
> pulled back a nasty little furry thing on the end of my cable from all the ladies showering in the home.....
> 
> in and out of the house in 15 minutes $125.00
> 
> did another one last friday......too..... $150.00
> 
> I have paid for the machine again....
> 
> I dont know whats got into me.....:laughing::laughing:
> 
> hell, I might ever re-surrect my K-50 Rigid machine and
> a 100 foot cable for my new truck now that I got the room
> to spare.....................
> 
> 
> nnnaaaaaaaaaaa... no way.........:laughing::laughing:



I just figured out why you don't like to do it...
We charge Better N Twice what you do to do it....:laughing:


----------



## AssTyme

Redwood said:


> I just figured out why you don't like to do it...
> We charge Better N Twice what you do to do it....:laughing:




A few do sinks and small drains around here for $65.00.


----------



## MACPLUMB777

AssTyme said:


> Nothing worse than a rookie drain cleaner (me) making things right after a licensed plumber has worked on something
> 
> Just like CSP Drain said, it all depends on the person


THAT IS THE POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE I HAVE SEEN JOBS LIKE THIS

AND HAVE DONE DRAINS MYSELF THAT A PURE PLUMBER DID NOT KNOW 

OR HAVE THE RIGHT "PROFESSIONAL" MACHINES TO CLEAR THE BLOCKAGE 

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Redwood

I know what you are saying Jerry...

I have followed behind guys that were called to a clog showed up with a hand snake, Farted around with it for a while, threw some clobber down the drain and said "if that doesn't work you need to call a company that cleans drains"... :blink:

Then after that they charges a C-Note for giving it a good try and left...

To me that's equally bad as a drain cleaner doing plumbing without being a licensed plumber...

Either way someone is crookin the customer...:whistling2:


----------



## tungsten plumb

I have a problem with drain cleaners doing full on plumbing. But If they need to pull a toilet or remove a p-trap to get to a drain whats the damn problem? They are more competent than your local home owner who just bought a kohler from Home depot. Also drain cleaning takes a lot of skill and patience to do the job correctly. Its also very dangerous and unsanitary so I give those guys credit. Now Roto Rooter hacks who's been trained for two weeks and given a van thats something entirely different :whistling2:


----------



## AssTyme

tungsten plumb said:


> I have a problem with drain cleaners doing full on plumbing. But If they need to pull a toilet or remove a p-trap to get to a drain whats the damn problem? They are more competent than your local home owner who just bought a kohler from Home depot. Also drain cleaning takes a lot of skill and patience to do the job correctly. Its also very dangerous and unsanitary so I give those guys credit. Now Roto Rooter hacks who's been trained for two weeks and given a van thats something entirely different :whistling2:



I agree 100% :thumbsup:


----------



## Redwood

Personally I like the idea of doing both...:laughing:
But being legit...:thumbup:

Many days I'd rather clean a clogged drain than drive around talking to people that are "Thinking About" remodeling a bath....:whistling2:

It brings home the bacon today!


----------



## PaulW

My personal feeling is that if your working on any part of a plumbing system you should be licensed, bonded and insured. I tell all of our customers to look for those three qaulifications when considering a contractor of any trade.

If your just cleaning drains you should get your license you owe it to your customers.


_What if you get your equipment stuck? Who removes it? An unlicensed plumber compromizes the integraty of the sanitary system? :001_unsure:_

Just my 2 cents not meant to bash anyone.

Paul


----------



## affordabledrain

PaulW said:


> My personal feeling is that if your working on any part of a plumbing system you should be licensed, bonded and insured. I tell all of our customers to look for those three qaulifications when considering a contractor of any trade.
> 
> If your just cleaning drains you should get your license you owe it to your customers.
> 
> 
> _What if you get your equipment stuck? Who removes it? An unlicensed plumber compromizes the integraty of the sanitary system? :001_unsure:_
> 
> Just my 2 cents not meant to bash anyone.
> 
> Paul


I am going to say the sanitary system can and will be compromised by licensed guys also.
Hack work does not just get done by unlicensed people.


----------



## PaulW

> I am going to say the sanitary system can and will be compromised by licensed guys also.
> Hack work does not just get done by unlicensed people.


I am saying ONLY a licensed plumber should compromise the sanitary system. 

Whether it is hacked or not is not the issue.

A licensed driver will crash a car just like an unlicensed driver. But the licensed driver has his license to drive.

Paul


----------



## retired rooter

Drain cleaner or plumber,come on guys ?tell me when you list all those towns in your ads do you really go to each city and buy a license to work there, even if you only go into that area ,maybe once a year?
I am not talking about your state certification ,I mean a business license to work there.
Here a drain cleaners license is the same as a peanut vendor on the street .A license to do business.We tried for a state wide system yrs ago it wouldn't happen.
The plumbers have alot more stuff to buy, bonds ,cert of insurance etc. 
PS THANKS MATT WIFE SHOWED ME HOW TO WORK THE ENTER KEY LOL


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## Redwood

retired rooter said:


> Drain cleaner or plumber,come on guys ?tell me when you list all those towns in your ads do you really go to each city and buy a license to work there, even if you only go into that area ,maybe once a year?
> I am not talking about your state certification ,I mean a business license to work there.
> Here a drain cleaners license is the same as a peanut vendor on the street .A license to do business.We tried for a state wide system yrs ago it wouldn't happen.
> The plumbers have alot more stuff to buy, bonds ,cert of insurance etc.
> PS THANKS MATT WIFE SHOWED ME HOW TO WORK THE ENTER KEY LOL


Damn!

Sounds like the politicians down there have both hands in your pockets...

Here one license covers the entire state....:whistling2:


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## TheMaster

Redwood said:


> Damn!
> 
> Sounds like the politicians down there have both hands in your pockets...
> 
> Here one license covers the entire state....:whistling2:


So you dont hafta buy city business license.....Just a state business license and you can set up shop in any city in the state?

Here we buy one plumbing license from the state.....but BUSINESS license are issued by the state.....and each city.


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## Redwood

TheMaster said:


> So you dont hafta buy city business license.....Just a state business license and you can set up shop in any city in the state?
> 
> Here we buy one plumbing license from the state.....but BUSINESS license are issued by the state.....and each city.


Like I said your politicians are crooks...
We don't need a license for every town we do a job in...

Sheesh...:whistling2:


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## TheMaster

Redwood said:


> Like I said your politicians are crooks...
> We don't need a license for every town we do a job in...
> 
> Sheesh...:whistling2:


Sounds like your politicians have found a way to x out one fee...like a business license and prolly double somthing else. Whats your property tax for the typical 3 bedroom 2 bath home? Here its about 800 a year.....and my 2002 work van tag cost me 60.00:laughing:


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## Titan Plumbing

As of last year the Texas State Board of Plumbing Examiners slammed the door on all the Municipalities charging us to "register" in their City. It was expensive for sure, I'm not sure how many different little Cities there are in Tarrant County alone.


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## retired rooter

TM @ Smells we had 1 govenor that acted like he wanted to help ,just before TSHTF , he was going to send one of his staff to help try to start the ball rolling our way, it was Siggleman and you know what happened to him, ended up in jail for accepting an ATV from a contribuitor.
ps to those not familier with our screwed up political system , he is out on bail


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## TheMaster

Choctaw said:


> As of last year the Texas State Board of Plumbing Examiners slammed the door on all the Municipalities charging us to "register" in their City. It was expensive for sure, I'm not sure how many different little Cities there are in Tarrant County alone.


Here if your just an employee all you need is a state plumbing license to install plumbing.

If you want to open a business you must buy a business license......from the state and in whatever city or town your business is located in........if your business is not located in a city then you do not hafta buy a city license...if you do no work in a city then you do not hafta buy another license....just the ONE from the state.

Now if you want to work inside the city limits...you must buy a business license from that city. 

Now with all that said......business licenses are cheap.....I can get a minimum license for 50.00 in some small towns and citys. I've had some even tell me ......"unless your doin alot of business here ...just dont worry about it"


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## Redwood

TheMaster said:


> Sounds like your politicians have found a way to x out one fee...like a business license and prolly double somthing else. Whats your property tax for the typical 3 bedroom 2 bath home? Here its about 800 a year.....and my 2002 work van tag cost me 60.00:laughing:


I'd say everything is a little higher here TM including what I charge...:whistling2:

But then again many of the towns I work in have a median income over $125K too...


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## Titan Plumbing

TheMaster said:


> Here if your just an employee all you need is a state plumbing license to install plumbing.
> 
> If you want to open a business you must buy a business license......from the state and in whatever city or town your business is located in........if your business is not located in a city then you do not hafta buy a city license...if you do no work in a city then you do not hafta buy another license....just the ONE from the state.
> 
> Now if you want to work inside the city limits...you must buy a business license from that city.
> 
> Now with all that said......business licenses are cheap.....I can get a minimum license for 50.00 in some small towns and citys. I've had some even tell me ......"unless your doin alot of business here ...just dont worry about it"


Wow, if you want to open a business in the Great State of Texas...THEN YOU CAN...no lic., no registrations. If you re-sale items then you must obtain a Sales Tax Number from the State...I don't think that even costs anything.


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## TheMaster

Redwood said:


> I'd say everything is a little higher here TM including what I charge...:whistling2:
> 
> But then again many of the towns I work in have a median income over $125K too...


Everybody knows red that the northeast is taxed to freakin death...its no big secret:whistling2: How many people you ever hear of retiring and moving north?:whistling2: All the ones I meet from the north that move here tell me they had to move south because they were being TAXED to death....and they tired of the snow and ice:whistling2:


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## Tommy plumber

retired rooter said:


> Drain cleaner or plumber,come on guys ?tell me when you list all those towns in your ads do you really go to each city and buy a license to work there, even if you only go into that area ,maybe once a year?
> I am not talking about your state certification ,I mean a business license to work there.
> Here a drain cleaners license is the same as a peanut vendor on the street .A license to do business.We tried for a state wide system yrs ago it wouldn't happen.
> The plumbers have alot more stuff to buy, bonds ,cert of insurance etc.
> PS THANKS MATT WIFE SHOWED ME HOW TO WORK THE ENTER KEY LOL


 
Peanut vendor's license. I laughed hard at that one. That's funny. :laughing:


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## Tommy plumber

Redwood said:


> Like I said your politicians are crooks...
> We don't need a license for every town we do a job in...
> 
> Sheesh...:whistling2:


 
"politician s are crooks.." I laughed hard at that one too. Sometimes you guys are better than watching Seinfeld. Ok, keep posting.. entertain me. :laughing::laughing:


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## bchplumbing

*Plumbers V.S. Drain cleaners*

I have a lot of respect for drain cleaners. With that said, I am a license plumber and have been plumbing for over 18 years now. Yesterday, Sept. 19/2010, I went to a clients home to make sure his drains were cleared.

I pulled large amounts of roots from his main and place them in a large Lowes bag for the home owner to show proof that his lines were root bound on the city side and not in his home. Which it was at 70' from the toilet in his master bath. From MB to the the end of his house was 35' and another 5' to the city water tap.

The client said that two weeks before the city jetted the lines and found nothing wrong. Hmmm. 

I pulled over 10 pounds of roots from the system. 

Here is the problem. six months ago he has a local drain cleaning company auger out his lines and they found nothing either. They were drain tech's and not plumbers and there prices proved that to me when the client about passed out from my bill which was 228.69 

He said the other company charged from the time they put the auger in the drain and that he never heard of charging fom time of arrival.

I told him that he was comparing apples to oranges. 

1. they were drain techs and did not solve the problem.

2. the city used the wrong tool or didn't know how to use the tool. A high powered jet should cut roots from the line... ???

3. I told him up-front I charge 99.00 per hour with a one hour minimum for sewer clearing and a 30.00 service fee. I was there for two hours and actually solved his long time problem.

Yet the client feels that I should only get 128.00 for my service. What the hell, I am not a service tech, I don't work by the hour. Iam a business owner, a plumber, a specialist. I can fix all of his problems with his plumbing. No problem there. 

I laid everything up front as far as pricing. 
So, what is the deal?
As a plumber I find it offensive to be compared to a drain cleaning tech. 
What is your feelings?:furious:


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## Plumber Jim

bchplumbing said:


> I have a lot of respect for drain cleaners. With that said, I am a license plumber and have been plumbing for over 18 years now. Yesterday, Sept. 19/2010, I went to a clients home to make sure his drains were cleared.
> 
> I pulled large amounts of roots from his main and place them in a large Lowes bag for the home owner to show proof that his lines were root bound on the city side and not in his home. Which it was at 70' from the toilet in his master bath. From MB to the the end of his house was 35' and another 5' to the city water tap.
> 
> The client said that two weeks before the city jetted the lines and found nothing wrong. Hmmm.
> 
> I pulled over 10 pounds of roots from the system.
> 
> Here is the problem. six months ago he has a local drain cleaning company auger out his lines and they found nothing either. They were drain tech's and not plumbers and there prices proved that to me when the client about passed out from my bill which was 228.69
> 
> He said the other company charged from the time they put the auger in the drain and that he never heard of charging fom time of arrival.
> 
> I told him that he was comparing apples to oranges.
> 
> 1. they were drain techs and did not solve the problem.
> 
> 2. the city used the wrong tool or didn't know how to use the tool. A high powered jet should cut roots from the line... ???
> 
> 3. I told him up-front I charge 99.00 per hour with a one hour minimum for sewer clearing and a 30.00 service fee. I was there for two hours and actually solved his long time problem.
> 
> Yet the client feels that I should only get 128.00 for my service. What the hell, I am not a service tech, I don't work by the hour. Iam a business owner, a plumber, a specialist. I can fix all of his problems with his plumbing. No problem there.
> 
> I laid everything up front as far as pricing.
> So, what is the deal?
> As a plumber I find it offensive to be compared to a drain cleaning tech.
> What is your feelings?:furious:


Did you ask him which he thought was the better value? $128 and not fix the problem or the $228 and actually fix the problem?


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## AssTyme

bchplumbing said:


> As a plumber I find it offensive to be compared to a drain cleaning tech.
> What is your feelings?:furious:




There are good and bad in every group. 

IMHO you seem a tad arrogant :yes:


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## Redwood

bchplumbing said:


> I have a lot of respect for drain cleaners. With that said, I am a license plumber and have been plumbing for over 18 years now. Yesterday, Sept. 19/2010, I went to a clients home to make sure his drains were cleared.
> 
> I pulled large amounts of roots from his main and place them in a large Lowes bag for the home owner to show proof that his lines were root bound on the city side and not in his home. Which it was at 70' from the toilet in his master bath. From MB to the the end of his house was 35' and another 5' to the city water tap.
> 
> The client said that two weeks before the city jetted the lines and found nothing wrong. Hmmm.
> 
> I pulled over 10 pounds of roots from the system.
> 
> Here is the problem. six months ago he has a local drain cleaning company auger out his lines and they found nothing either. They were drain tech's and not plumbers and there prices proved that to me when the client about passed out from my bill which was 228.69
> 
> He said the other company charged from the time they put the auger in the drain and that he never heard of charging fom time of arrival.
> 
> I told him that he was comparing apples to oranges.
> 
> 1. they were drain techs and did not solve the problem.
> 
> 2. the city used the wrong tool or didn't know how to use the tool. A high powered jet should cut roots from the line... ???
> 
> 3. I told him up-front I charge 99.00 per hour with a one hour minimum for sewer clearing and a 30.00 service fee. I was there for two hours and actually solved his long time problem.
> 
> Yet the client feels that I should only get 128.00 for my service. What the hell, I am not a service tech, I don't work by the hour. Iam a business owner, a plumber, a specialist. I can fix all of his problems with his plumbing. No problem there.
> 
> I laid everything up front as far as pricing.
> So, what is the deal?
> As a plumber I find it offensive to be compared to a drain cleaning tech.
> What is your feelings?:furious:


I wouldn't lump all the companies into one basket on either side of the fence.
The quality of service varies widely from company to company and in different states and regions.

Here a vast majority of plumbers do not get involved with drain cleaning but when a customer calls with a clogged line they will go anyway to see if there is anything they can do, They show up and give it their best with the hand crank 25' snake dump in some clobber and tell the customer if that doesn't fix it they need to call a drain cleaning company. They then present a bill and leave.:whistling2:

On the other hand we also have sewer & drain companies that don't hesitate to send out a drain cleaner to install a gas water heater...:whistling2:

Some companies here do both drain cleaning and plumbing as well.

I think the key here is if the work is out of your scope you need to be honest and tell the customer so they can get the best possible job done. Anything less is a rip off...

Oh yea and then we have the outfits on both sides that are just plain rip off outfits which the state consumer protection people should just go after and shut them down....:thumbup:

I don't think there should be any battle between plumbers and drain cleaners.
A vast majority are honest hardworking professionals and we should respect each other as well as each others turf when applicable.

Stick to what you do best and if you are geared up to do both well power to ya!:thumbup:


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## ToUtahNow

For the most part it has more to do with the competency of the individual. However, while both can be competent drain cleaners only a competent plumber can be a plumber.

Mark


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## AssTyme

Redwood said:


> I don't think there should be any battle between plumbers and drain cleaners.
> A vast majority are honest hardworking professionals and we should respect each other as well as each others turf when applicable.
> 
> Stick to what you do best and if you are geared up to do both well power to ya!:thumbup:



:thumbsup:


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## plbgbiz

retired rooter said:


> Drain cleaner or plumber,come on guys ?tell me when you list all those towns in your ads do you really go to each city and buy a license to work there, even if you only go into that area ,maybe once a year?


Yes I do.
Oklahoma City
Edmond
Moore
The Village
Nichols Hills
Mustang
Valley Brook
Del City
Midwest City
Guthrie
Norman
Lawton
Enid
Elk City
Yukon
El Reno
Kingfisher
Shawnee
Chickasha
Piedmont


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## plbgbiz

How could anyone reasonably start a drain cleaning job knowing he can not pull a toilet, cut into a pipe, or remove a trap.

You can split hairs all you want, but to suggest that drain cleaning tasks do not involve the need for a trained plumbing professional with a license is an insult.:no:


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## plumbpro

plbgbiz said:


> How could anyone reasonably start a drain cleaning job knowing he can not pull a toilet, cut into a pipe, or remove a trap.
> 
> You can split hairs all you want, but to suggest that drain cleaning tasks do not involve the need for a trained plumbing professional with a license is an insult.:no:


Hey RR here always does just that, not sure how they get away with it


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## AssTyme

plbgbiz said:


> How could anyone reasonably start a drain cleaning job knowing he can not pull a toilet, cut into a pipe, or remove a trap.



These are the simplest of tasks that require little to no skill. Anything more and I refer the job to my licensed plumber friend. When he is finished making the necessary repairs he will call me back and let me know the line is ready for me to finish cleaning.

Around here most plumbers do not offer drain cleaning.


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## Redwood

Here I believe Drain Cleaners can either work for a company that has a licensed master or, may work under an HIC license.

They may pull and reset a toilet, R & R a trap, or, open a cleanout to access the line for cleaning purposes. Cutting a pipe or, changing a flapper they better have that license...

Don't hold me to that I'm not going to look it up...:laughing:
I had no worries there....
But I believe that is the way it is written here...


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## plbgbiz

AssTyme said:


> These are the simplest of tasks that require little to no skill.


Again, with all due respect to your hard work and experience, I must disagree. Removing and reinstalling existing parts of the plumbing system should also involve knowing whether or not it was correct to start with. There are right and wrong ways to set toilets and install p-traps. Although many people who perform drain maintenance may know what to do, but without being tested as a plumber, it is just as likely that they don't.

In my limited experience, many if not most drain blockages are a result (at least in part) of a problem with the plumbing system itself. i.e. improper design, deteriorated pipe, broken fittings. None of these root (no pun intended) causes can be appropriately addressed by a person without a license.

Not questioning the "legality". Just whether or not I agree with it.


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## Tommy plumber

plbgbiz said:


> Again, with all due respect to your hard work and experience, I must disagree. Removing and reinstalling existing parts of the plumbing system should also involve knowing whether or not it was correct to start with. There are right and wrong ways to set toilets and install p-traps. Although many people who perform drain maintenance may know what to do, but without being tested as a plumber, it is just as likely that they don't.
> 
> In my limited experience, many if not most drain blockages are a result (at least in part) of a problem with the plumbing system itself. i.e. improper design, deteriorated pipe, broken fittings. None of these root (no pun intended) causes can be appropriately addressed by a person without a license.
> 
> Not questioning the "legality". Just whether or not I agree with it.


 
I agree that laws should only allow a licensed master plumber to perform drain cleaning. When a person goes to a doctor's office to have that orthoscopic (spelling might be off) instrument put down their throat or up their rear-end, who does the work? It is done by an MD or a physician's assistant. But it is under the supervision of a licensed MD. It is not done by a hack MD.....So why is our trade held to a lower standard? (PS: if tm were still around, he would jump in a blast me for comparing pipes to humans. So if someone wants to go there, go ahead)


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## Airgap

Tommy plumber said:


> I agree that laws should only allow a licensed master plumber to perform drain cleaning. When a person goes to a doctor's office to have that orthoscopic (spelling might be off) instrument put down their throat or up their rear-end, who does the work? It is done by an MD or a physician's assistant. But it is under the supervision of a licensed MD. It is not done by a hack MD.....So why is our trade held to a lower standard? (PS: if tm were still around, he would jump in a blast me for comparing pipes to humans. So if someone wants to go there, go ahead)


No, TM was the master of off the wall analogies....

I know what you're saying though...:thumbsup:


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## plumbpro

Here under the IPC adopted for AR, you cannot break a trap seal or disrupt potable water lines without a JP or MP lic. Drain cleaners here get into these predicaments often, but rarely get caught. We don't have enough inspectors to deal with it, they have a full plate dealing with the unlicensed installing plumbing.


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## Pipe Rat

Unfortunately its a fact of life around here that they do it all the time. Craigslist hacks, side jobbers, drain cleaners and unlicensed work everywhere. I don't think the county inspectors go out of their way to do much about it they're too busy bustin' the chops of the licensed guys. :yes: I don't think it's gonna change in my lifetime either. On a positive note though these hacks create a steady stream of repair work in their aftermath. Sometimes the customer just has to be educated the hard way. :thumbup: _*"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of a low price is forgotten" :thumbsup:*_


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## Redwood

AssTyme said:


> *Around here most plumbers do not offer drain cleaning.*


Same Here!
A very small percentage which has proven to be very lucrative for us. :thumbup:


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## retired rooter

When I was working for a split shop, a respectable Plumber would not be caught dead cleaning a sewer,I remember going to a fiends home(union new work plumber) to open his sewer.A few yrs later when the whole local went on strike ,he was riding with me.We were both JM but our shop was split, [email protected] non-union ,those days are over now, that shop is completely non U now with maybe 10 trucks probably a few less. Every plumbing shop cleans drains around here now,eccept the mechanical contractors,that are union ,with latino apprentist or helpers doing most of the work. Plumbiz the 2 shops I worked for did like you they had walls covered with licenses in the break room we once counted , over 30!!!!


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## JimmyRooter

*Moving state to state*

What about plumbers who were licensed in one state then moved to another - just weren't interested in jumping through more hoops?


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## SlickRick

What about them? What about a intro?


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## ap plumbing

how about all of those un licensed plumbers working 4 company's like roto rooter,rescue rooter,etc.Doing work under a co license that could have min experience. alot of plumbers don't like drain cleaners because its a art to know how to clear a drain with a snake and are not quick to jack hammering up a line because they don't know how to do the job with a snake.


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## ILPlumber

retired rooter said:


> eccept the mechanical contractors,that are union ,with latino apprentist or helpers doing most of the work.


:blink: Seriously.....:no:

And what does nationality have to do with it?


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## retired rooter

Matt said:


> :blink: Seriously.....:no:
> 
> And what does nationality have to do with it?


 nice young men from Arizona who migrated to alabama


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## affordabledrain

Once Again I have seen big companies do crap work. It all depends on the person doing the work. I was on a job today where a large firm in my area did a crappy job. 

Drain cleaning is an art


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## sheeptown44

agree with you,and i am an artist and a plumber. plumbing is art read the code book
:thumbup:


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## ap plumbing

I am both a plumber and drain cleaner, but alot of plumbers are not drain cleaners and only know how to connect pipes together like its hard work. There nothing like clearing a drain that is a challenge,its kind of like fishing,when that water goes down thats when you bring out that net.Great feeling something that plumbers don't ever experience,there snakes are full of bad kinks its kind of sad.Time to buy a new fishing pole plumbers . ha ha


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## DIZ

> I dont even get a x-mas card from them either
> .....but they both owe me big time.......
> .and they know some day the Godfather will ask for a favor in




Just reminded me of my useless arrangement. Sweet [email protected] all from all those referrals. If I get a bill when it comes time to have him come service my house, im gonna wipe my a$$ with it and tuck it in his shirt pocket.


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## Plumbingpros

I do both. I respect a man who knows what his legal & mechanical limits are. Everyone needs to make a living & there's great money in both here in S.Fl. Drain cleaners here in Fl who are neat, clean & give good service make a small fortune & many a large fortune...Follow the rules, there's enough for everyone..


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## jackcss

First off when times are good and we are all loaded with new construction the last thing I want to do is clean a main line from trap to tank on a Friday night. So therefore someone needs to do it.
If they pull a trap or stool so be it. Just means their actually trying to do their job. The only way to stop them is to run for congress/President or get off the barstool and venture out yourself(not me!!!). I took the Florida exam-wicked hard 2 full day exam. Still I ran into Plumbers & Handymen doing crappy work with crap materials, But for a lot less then I'm going to charge because I care about my customers!!! and I get called back.

You can't change the world, better off living with it.


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## Nayman's Drain

Before I ever started up, I took the time to research and talk to people.
The first ones I approached, were the 7 plumbing shops in town. Five of them don't clean drains/sewers, and the other two do it on a limited basis.
Then, I went to see the local plumbing inspector who read me the riot act for over 2 hours on what I could and could not do.
Fair enough, I don't have a ticket, so I don't plumb, and any plumbing jobs I get, go to the shops that send work my way. 
I now have all 7 shops on board, as well as some shops from out of town.
I sub-contract to them, and give them 10% off so they can upcharge accordingly.
Sometimes, they sub to me, with the same percentage given to me.

To me, plumbing is a pain-in-da-ass, and I'd rather give it away. Every shop gets their turn at any work I get.
Drain cleaning, however, I still get a rush from. There's just something about the "WHUMP" I hear when the drain opens up & hits the main.
I'm happy to say that I have a great working relationship with all the players in town, and aim to keep it that way.


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