# Backflow (1/2" Watts 009QT) spraying water from the top



## Expo Engineer (Mar 4, 2020)

I'm relatively new to the world of backflows having just completed my tester certification course last year. I have a 1/2" Watts 009QT RP assembly that is spraying water from the little nipple in the middle of the top cap above the relief valve piston. I opened it up, found a broken piston O-ring (the red one that goes on the plastic piston itself). I replaced that O-ring but it still sprayed water. I then bought a relief valve rebuild kit and installed it but the same thing is happening. Is the little nipple on the top of the cap supposed to be open (air vent, etc)? If so what seals it so it doesn't spray water? There's also a slight dent in the cap below one of the 4 slots at the bottom of the cap (I have no idea how that happened). Could that be causing the leak? I tested this device 4 months ago and it tested ok. Help!


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Expo Engineer said:


> I'm relatively new to the world of backflows having just completed my tester certification course last year. I have a 1/2" Watts 009QT RP assembly that is spraying water from the little nipple in the middle of the top cap above the relief valve piston. I opened it up, found a broken piston O-ring (the red one that goes on the plastic piston itself). I replaced that O-ring but it still sprayed water. I then bought a relief valve rebuild kit and installed it but the same thing is happening. Is the little nipple on the top of the cap supposed to be open (air vent, etc)? If so what seals it so it doesn't spray water? There's also a slight dent in the cap below one of the 4 slots at the bottom of the cap (I have no idea how that happened). Could that be causing the leak? I tested this device 4 months ago and it tested ok. Help!



do a proper intro on your qualifications to be on this forum or you will get NO answers and your balls broken....


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## mtfallsmikey (Jan 11, 2010)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> do a proper intro on your qualifications to be on this forum or you will get NO answers and your balls broken....



Yes, please do an intro. I see you're a building engineer, like me, but I'm a 3rd gen. plumber first and foremost.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

You will need to fill in an introduction


Are you an employee, apprentice, journeyman, business owner?

Tell us if you had to go to trade school. How long?

How many hours or steps(1/2/3/4) before you become a journeyman?

What trade certificate do you have, plumbing, gas, oil, pipe fitter etc? How did you get them, exams, courses, or free in a cracker jack box?

What about your recent jobs, describe what you actually do and what type of building : houses, high rises, commercial building, institutional, oil refineries, paper mills etc.

Tell us about you, some funny plumbing jobs and or horror stories.

*Intro page :*

https://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/


.


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

Expo Engineer said:


> And BTW I contacted Watts tech support to get the answer to my original question and reason for coming to this forum. Turns out that the 009QT RP should have been installed with a check valve to prevent downstream hammering. Wasn't actually a problem with the device.


I certainly wouldn't be one to argue with WATTS, but it seems kind of crazy to me that you would need to add another check valve to a device that already has two in it. If you have a water hammer issue wouldn't you install a device to manage that symptom instead of just putting something in front of the RPZ to keep it from 'seeing' the water hammer?

I might be misunderstanding the actual problem anyway.


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## Expo Engineer (Mar 4, 2020)

Alan said:


> I certainly wouldn't be one to argue with WATTS, but it seems kind of crazy to me that you would need to add another check valve to a device that already has two in it. If you have a water hammer issue wouldn't you install a device to manage that symptom instead of just putting something in front of the RPZ to keep it from 'seeing' the water hammer?
> 
> I might be misunderstanding the actual problem anyway.


Per the Watts tech I put in a $66 (from $Fergu$on$) spring check AFTER the device. He was thinking the fast closing water solenoid in the ice machine was causing the problem. It seemed ok initially but today I checked and it's still leaking. Back to square 1. I'm gonna go through another RP test procedure to make sure the internal checks aren't fouled. I would think if one of those checks is bad it would leak all the time. I have other backflows in the same area & they don't do what this one is doing.


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

The check valve for a supposed to stop a water hammer and a sudden spike in pressure. This will cause the relief to spit but not the relief vent to leak. You’re getting water on top of the diaphragm some how.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

How much water is this thing using that the solenoid closing does that? Maybe throttle the valve down before the backflow preventer just to add some restriction, might help with the water hammer.



Sounds to me like you need an expansion tank/hammer arrestor. Just throwin that out there since check valves usually make water hammer worse and hammer arrestors are designed to limit water hammer. 



Or maybe the pressure is too high and you need a prv. I usually suggest one if it's over 90. I don't like to see pressure over 75 but trying to get my manager to push one on them when it's under 90 is like pulling teeth, he just doesn't see it as that much of a benefit and doesn't like to push them.








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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Expo Engineer said:


> I'm relatively new to the world of backflows having just completed my tester certification course last year. I have a 1/2" Watts 009QT RP assembly that is spraying water from the little nipple in the middle of the top cap above the relief valve piston. I opened it up, found a broken piston O-ring (the red one that goes on the plastic piston itself). I replaced that O-ring but it still sprayed water. I then bought a relief valve rebuild kit and installed it but the same thing is happening. Is the little nipple on the top of the cap supposed to be open (air vent, etc)? If so what seals it so it doesn't spray water? There's also a slight dent in the cap below one of the 4 slots at the bottom of the cap (I have no idea how that happened). Could that be causing the leak? I tested this device 4 months ago and it tested ok. Help!



did it spray from the time you put it in? or is it an older existing unit?


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## Expo Engineer (Mar 4, 2020)

The weird thing about this situation is, as far as I know, it just started spraying from the vent only recently. I think the ice machine and the backflow have been in place for over 15 years. When I first looked at it I found the red O-ring broken, replaced that with same results. Also same results after replacing the relief valve piston. There are other devices on the same water feed and they're not having any issues as far as I know. Per the gauge on the filter assembly the water pressure is 80-85psi.


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## Expo Engineer (Mar 4, 2020)

Correction: 65-70psi on the gauge at the filter downstream of the RP. After doing a little more research I'm pretty sure we're having a water hammer situation upstream of the device. I did a test on the device: check 1 at 8.0psi, apparent pressure 65psi, relief valve opens at 5.1psi, & check 2 is tight (all good).


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

they dont last forever, I think a new one is around $200.00, you wasted more in time and labor than the cost of a new RPZ..


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## Expo Engineer (Mar 4, 2020)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> they dont last forever, I think a new one is around $200.00, you wasted more in time and labor than the cost of a new RPZ..


Even though the device tests ok?


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Expo Engineer said:


> Even though the device tests ok?



its leaking, so its not ok, how much time are you gona waste to fix a leak? you tried twice and it still leaks, so either you dont know how to fix it or there is an unfixable defect....it will take about an hour at most to swap it out and be done, send a bill and move on to another job...


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> its leaking, so its not ok, how much time are you gona waste to fix a leak? you tried twice and it still leaks, so either you dont know how to fix it or there is an unfixable defect....it will take about an hour at most to swap it out and be done, send a bill and move on to another job...


 Great point gotta bite the bullet and get it fixed . SWap in a new!then take the old one home and figure out


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Could be the brass casting itself which is worn and won't accept a seal. I had a customer with the most beautiful moen 8710 I have ever seen. It was 30 years old. One of our other plumbers was there two weeks before me and we both swapped the cartridge and replaced all the seals. Leaked after both of us. Had to scrap it. The moen 8710 is my favorite faucet. 







.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

Talked to a Licensed Plumber friend of mine who is backflow Certified 
says to buy a new backflow not worth trying to repair, and most times
repairs will not work :biggrin:


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

So what happened did you repair it replace it or ignor it? If you put a brand new one did that leak? If your going to ask a qyestion share what you did that way . we get something back to learn from. Was it worth repairing? not worth it? did you f it up whatever. hey ive screwed a few things up myself.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Bad oring on the shaft of the relief valve. Or a pinhole in the relief.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

A little late to the party but. I work on and test hundreds of these things a year.

Generally anything 2” or less I just cut out and replace unless it’s a simple fix or some other reason that repair is a better option. It seems often with those devices I put in a kit and they still don’t work right. Then of course the custumer doesn’t want to pay.

That said. That device has a hole in the top. It's to relieve air in the barrel when the piston travels up to operate the relief. In an older device it’s almost normal to get a drop or two of water from there when the relief opens. If it’s a constant weep open it up, clean the barrel with a brush or some grit cloth, clean it, grease it, replace the o rings with new watts parts, not ones from your truck. If that doesn’t solve it you can buy a new brass top or wiper. However now your parts are in the same range as a new device and you’ve spend 3x the time on it.


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## alson (Apr 18, 2014)

Marlin said:


> A little late to the party but. I work on and test hundreds of these things a year.
> 
> Generally anything 2” or less I just cut out and replace unless it’s a simple fix or some other reason that repair is a better option. It seems often with those devices I put in a kit and they still don’t work right. Then of course the custumer doesn’t want to pay.


I agree with all of those who have said to replace it. I found that rebuilding a 009 is a waste of time and money. Put in a new one and don't look back. In many cases it is fruitless to rebuild an RPZ, but sometimes it works for just check valve washers. I used to do testing for a firesprinkler company and when I would tell them that the 3" detector check device needed a rebuild, they would always say that it was a waste of time and the customer would be better off with a complete replacement. And that was talking about thousands of dollars.


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## KilkenX (Nov 25, 2020)

silicone grease is your best friend


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

KilkenX said:


> silicone grease is your best friend


Next time before you and your honey take a shower, stick a dab of silicone grease up high on the wall in the shower.

_"Why does water make it sticky!?!?!?!?" _You'll never be screaming that again


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