# Should real plumbers use sharkbite fittings or are they for handymen.



## j.funk

I say no. handymans favorite fitting. stop doing our jobs and everybody elses.:furious:


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## Protech

I use them in many situations.


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## SPENCE

I keep some in the truck for a "just in case" moment. but i have this thing about somebody looking at my work and going oh he used shark bites.


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## Ron

There code approved here, so why not.


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## muck

I used 6 today for a Walmart remodle job where we could only shut the water down for 10 min. No wat we could have drained the system enough to solder anything.


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## aero1

they do serve a purpose and in my opinion should be used sparingly.


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## user823

It's not a matter of being a real plumber or a handyman. The question is are they code approved in your state? Here in Minnesota they are not. If it's not listed in the code book as an approved material or fitting it's illegal. Also for example, compression fittings are also illegal here.


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## Kyle181

me and the original poster here installed a Zoller water powered back up sump pump last week ,i think its one of their newest models , its all pre assembled really sweet , easy to install, and the weird thing is that it comes with a brass male port for the water supply connection(which i liked much better than the old plastic female port) and a female sharkbite adapter, which we threw away and used a copper female adapter instead. I agree with j , shark bites are stupid.. your never gonna catch the dream team installing one!


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

I use em on grey poly thats about it. You gotta remember, they already have ****ty pipe, so why not put it back together with a half ass fitting. And fellows, we gotta sell the repipes, I mean ***** the boss wants a new boat.


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## Kyle181

i guess maybe on a grey poly repipe, but only if its under a trailor hahaha


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## j.funk

hell yah bro. i can see like that guy how he could only have the water off for ten minutes. but i would never install one permantely. sure they sell them and they might be code approved but why not just use compression. and zoeller should be shot for that crap.:thumbsup:


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## j.funk

*I HEAR YOu*

see iam with you. maybe a just in case. a tight in the wall fix or something but you right, everytime i see a sharkbite on a job i say what a hack lazy ass.


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## Ron

Shark Bites seal the same way as pro press via an o-ring, so do you think the same way towards pro press?


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## user4

Kyle181 said:


> me and the original poster here installed a Zoller water powered back up sump pump last week ,i think its one of their newest models , its all pre assembled really sweet , easy to install, and the weird thing is that it comes with a brass male port for the water supply connection(which i liked much better than the old plastic female port) and a female sharkbite adapter, which we threw away and used a copper female adapter instead. I agree with j , shark bites are stupid.. your never gonna catch the dream team installing one!


You have no problem installing a pump system that has the potential of poisoning a municipal water supply, yet you balk at using a sharkbite fitting?

I fail to see the logic involved in this thought process.


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## user823

Ron The Plumber said:


> Shark Bites seal the same way as pro press via an o-ring, so do you think the same way towards pro press?


Not even close Ron. Shark bites are "push on" fittings, pro press is what it says, they are pressed on with many many pounds of pressure, Huge difference, not even close.:no:


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## Ron

They still seal with an o-ring.


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## user823

Killertoiletspider said:


> You have no problem installing a pump system that has the potential of poisoning a municipal water supply, yet you balk at using a sharkbite fitting?
> 
> I fail to see the logic involved in this thought process.


I talked to the inspector about those pumps, he said we could use them as long as the proper backflow device was installed along with it otherwise he would fail it. I think I'll stick with my regular sump pumps anyway.:thumbsup:


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## user823

Ron The Plumber said:


> They still seal with an o-ring.


Ok you got me there but that's like saying me and the cat are the same cause we both have eyeballs!:thumbup: meow
Man, I'm in a rotten mood tonight. Just got real busy with bids this week and trying to keep up with the service calls! Where's Dave!!!!!!!!:blink:


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## Plumber

When its 5 degrees under the house and you're cutting out broken pipe, you use sharkbites.


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## user823

Plumber said:


> When its 5 degrees under the house and you're cutting out broken pipe, you use sharkbites.


That's when I used one, under a trailer but you can add a 3 in front of that 5 and then say below zero.

Hey Ron, I was actually thinking about buying the new Ridgid propress kit with jaws also for the Pureflow pex, they just came out with a new one, lot's of improvements, lighter, better batteries etc. It's the RP 210-B, guess what that baby costs? OUCH!!!!


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## Ron

ironranger said:


> That's when I used one, under a trailer but you can add a 3 in front of that 5 and then say below zero.
> 
> Hey Ron, I was actually thinking about buying the new Ridgid propress kit with jaws also for the Pureflow pex, they just came out with a new one, lot's of improvements, lighter, better batteries etc. It's the RP 210-B, guess what that baby costs? OUCH!!!!


Sweet, if you do, give us a review, so tell us what it will cost.


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## Protech

Water powered sump pumps are legal as long as they have an RPZ.

I would use a shark bite on a potable water line before I would use a compression fitting (except on high heat application like solar). I have yet to run into a leaking shark bite fitting though I have seen some propress leaks. Sharbites are excellent for doing repairs on old failing copper systems because they don't deform the copper like an propress or compression fitting would which would expose fresh metal on the inside and accelerate erosion corrosion at that point. If the copper is in good enough condition I always sweat vs. a SB but I leave enough room so that if the copper pinholes from sanding, fluxing and heating I have enough left to SB onto. They have their place and applications. I understand that many plumbers hate them because they have enabled so many handyman/DIY hacks to reek havoc on plumbing systems but I'm not going to let that dictate what I choose to use. That's being a conformist in my view. 

As far as comparing the quality of the connection between SB and PP, I think PP is better but not by much. The pull out strength is pretty similar and so is the temperature rating. Does anyone actually have the dimensions that the o-rings are compressed to once both fittings are installed?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Everything these days is 

push fit

crimp on

glue


so that's why joe billybob is doin' our job yeeeehaaaaaawww!!!! :laughing:


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## smellslike$tome

I'll be hunting down Elkay water cooler parts in the morning for a leaking water fountain I looked at today. Cooler is about 5 years old I think and was leaking like CRAZY from push fittings on the push button. I have also repaired leaking shark bites inside walls installed by handymen. I have also installed many sharkbites on pb (which it is not even rated for) underneath mobile homes and on pb water services (thin wall). Do I hold my nose every time I do it? Yes I do. Do I bad mouth them to customers who ask about them? Yes I do. Does this make me a total hypocrite? Yes it does. Am I going to stop using them in specific situations where it seems to be the best solution? No I am not.


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## Redwood

Kyle181 said:


> i guess maybe on a grey poly repipe, but only if its under a trailor hahaha


Thats exactly where I use them.... :laughing:


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## Airgap

smellslike$tome said:


> I'll be hunting down Elkay water cooler parts in the morning for a leaking water fountain I looked at today. Cooler is about 5 years old I think and was leaking like CRAZY from push fittings on the push button. I have also repaired leaking shark bites inside walls installed by handymen. I have also installed many sharkbites on pb (which it is not even rated for) underneath mobile homes and on pb water services (thin wall). Do I hold my nose every time I do it? Yes I do. Do I bad mouth them to customers who ask about them? Yes I do. Does this make me a total hypocrite? Yes it does. Am I going to stop using them in specific situations where it seems to be the best solution? No I am not.


You probably already know , but you can replace the o-rings in the water 

cooler push fittings really easy. They want to get indented on one side 

and cause leaks. I've replaced alot of them on coolers that were not very old at all.


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## wookie

I use sharkbites for temp/in progress jobs only. Great for quickly testing as you go and gets water on for the customer. Sharkbites are like John Guest fittings which I HATE! Its not IF they leak it's WHEN they leak! The orings dry out and if there's movement of the line it leaks ( talking about water filtration systems ) I use Jaco fitting on my drinking water systems instead.

So given my experience with the technology I won't use Sharkbites for permanet work.

wookie


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## Kyle181

Killertoiletspider said:


> You have no problem installing a pump system that has the potential of poisoning a municipal water supply, yet you balk at using a sharkbite fitting?
> 
> I fail to see the logic involved in this thought process.


 
it has a vacuum breaker built in, and it passed inspection.


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## Redwood

Kyle181 said:


> it has a vacuum breaker built in, and it passed inspection.


Sounds like your code is pretty lax on cross contamination...
Most places I know of require a RPZ for protection...

That said...
In times of high water I see little value in using a sump pump that adds an additional gallon to the waste stream for every 2 gallons pumped out of the sump...


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## gear junkie

I have to keep a supply on the truck because VA Beach is full of quest pipe. I don't trust the quest to pex connection at all and feel a sharkbite is a better alternative. Since I bought a jet swet, I will only solder copper.


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## Herk

I would never use a Sharkbite on polybutylene, UNLESS I had one of the original stainless steel inserts for the pipe, such as were supplied with manifolds. The plastic insert that comes with the Sharkbite does not have a large enough outside diameter to support the pipe. Sharkbites are not approved for polybutylene.

Really, I've never seen the need for a Sharkbite with PB because I carry crimp adapters to use with PEX.


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## Ron

Herk said:


> I would never use a Sharkbite on polybutylene, UNLESS I had one of the original stainless steel inserts for the pipe, such as were supplied with manifolds. The plastic insert that comes with the Sharkbite does not have a large enough outside diameter to support the pipe. Sharkbites are not approved for polybutylene.
> 
> Really, I've never seen the need for a Sharkbite with PB because I carry crimp adapters to use with PEX.



Yep I don't use then on quest pipe myself, I don't think there made for quest.


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## nhmaster3015

I been plummin for nye on to 36 years widd out em and see no reason to start now. I ain't always lookin for fast and easy, done got plenty O time to do it right.


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## gear junkie

Herk said:


> Sharkbites are not approved for polybutylene.


I totally see where you're coming from Herk. I called cash acme and asked about it and the response was that since quest is a failed piping system, cash acme didn't want to be associated with it. What if there was a leak at a fitting, did the pipe fail or did the SB? They did say they since Quest has the same OD as CTS pipe, it should work.

That being said, I think that a SB is less damaging to the quest pipe. I've seen too many leaks at the crimp ring with quest. Why use a known bad system? I believe a SB is the lesser of the two evils. At the end of the day, you're the one who has to live with your actions and the repercussions they cause others.


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## nhmaster3015

You can still get Poly fittings, why not just repair it with them?


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## Plumberman

Sharkbites have their place. I want bury them in walls on in places they are hard to get to. But I will use them to cap off lines temporarily and for emergency repairs


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## Herk

::sigh::

I guess I'll have to say it yet one more time: polybutylene may be a failed system, but it never failed at my house nor any of the houses I've plumbed with it, to the best of my knowledge.

On trailers, the aluminum crimp rings and acetal plastic fittings are notorious for failing. In fact, I just did another string of repairs at a trailer I worked at only a few months ago - water had leaked from one fitting and destroyed the aluminum crimp rings on several other fittings. 

I never used either the acetal fittings nor the aluminum crimp rings, and the local water is good enough to not need treatment, which is what damages the pipe. It cannot withstand chlorinated water.


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## kenneth

Hell.... Use em' they're approved


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## tnoisaw

I will have to use one this week because the area that I need to use it is a hard access area with a high risk of burning down the apartments with a torch. It is also in a confined space and often a torch sucks the oxygen out of the area and starves the torch which shuts it down.


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## Ron

tnoisaw said:


> I will have to use one this week because the area that I need to use it is a hard access area with a high risk of burning down the apartments with a torch. It is also in a confined space and often a torch sucks the oxygen out of the area and starves the torch which shuts it down.


And how would you fix this if there was no shark bites?


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## Redwood

tnoisaw said:


> It is also in a confined space and often a torch sucks the oxygen out of the area and starves the torch which shuts it down.


Usually something else starves for oxygen before that happens...:whistling2:


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## Bill

I admit, I do. It really depends. If its somewhere that water dripping will be an issue to solder, then why not? Sweat all the lines, leave the problem to last and use a shark bite.


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## RealLivePlumber

I only use them to adapt to CPVC, in an exposed unfinished location.


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## Protech

Oxy/Ac torch. done. I reach down under slabs and sweat copper all the time that way.


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## nhmaster3015

Guess how I feel about them :whistling2:

I will fire anyone on my crew that uses 

Sharkbites
AAV's
CSST
PEX ( except for in floor radiant heat)
Plastic toilet bolts
Plastic tube talons on copper pipe


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## Ron

nhmaster3015 said:


> Guess how I feel about them :whistling2:
> 
> I will fire anyone on my crew that uses
> 
> Sharkbites
> AAV's
> CSST
> PEX ( except for in floor radiant heat)
> Plastic toilet bolts
> Plastic tube talons on copper pipe


Your just a Big Bully :laughing:


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## user2090

Somebody mining for some interesting topics? Going back to the early days.


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## Richard Hilliard

*shark bites*

I do not care if any other plumber uses shark bites. I do not use them. I have seen shark Bites leak and I have seen them seep. I have seen water heater installs done with shark bites, 2-mip x shark bite, 2- 90 degree shark bite elbows and 2 -shark bite couplings. Sorry that is silly. I am sure it took 60 bucks in fittings and the same amount of time as it would take me to hard pipe the water heater.


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## Bill

nhmaster3015 said:


> Guess how I feel about them :whistling2:
> 
> I will fire anyone on my crew that uses
> 
> Sharkbites
> AAV's
> CSST
> PEX ( except for in floor radiant heat)
> Plastic toilet bolts
> Plastic tube talons on copper pipe


Is that what happened to the guy in your avatar?


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## justin

i feel that as long as you can keep cost down then it is ok to use them . Whoa!!!! you see how much they cost !!! but i use them every chance i get. they are code approved. This is just me, but i think if anythings code approved, makes job easier, and works, and has been proven over and over again, then i will use it. why waste time letting a piece of copper dry out, sweat it then find out you didnt get that last spec of water out of pipe. Back to step one....its the same old story. Thats just me though:cowboy:


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## nhmaster3015

justin said:


> i feel that as long as you can keep cost down then it is ok to use them . Whoa!!!! you see how much they cost !!! but i use them every chance i get. they are code approved. This is just me, but i think if anythings code approved, makes job easier, and works, and has been proven over and over again, then i will use it. why waste time letting a piece of copper dry out, sweat it then find out you didnt get that last spec of water out of pipe. Back to step one....its the same old story. Thats just me though:cowboy:


Ever hear of a Jett-Swett?
If you're looking for a job, pass my shop up :laughing:


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## user4

Sharkbites are not code approved here, neither is PEX or CPVC for domestic water distribution systems. It helps cut down on the number of "if you can't glue it we can't do it "plumbers" attempting to do work here.


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## user2090

nhmaster3015 said:


> Ever hear of a Jett-Swett?
> If you're looking for a job, pass my shop up :laughing:


I always forget to take our kit, that is similar to that, but there is always a way to make it work. I have some sharkbites on the van, but have yet to use one in over a year.


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## B.P. repairer

*Shark bites*



j.funk said:


> I say no. handymans favorite fitting. stop doing our jobs and everybody elses.:furious:


I use shark bite fitting to. But I think they will bite us in the you know what someday just like PB did


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## user4

justin said:


> i feel that as long as you can keep cost down then it is ok to use them . Whoa!!!! you see how much they cost !!! but i use them every chance i get. they are code approved. This is just me, but i think if anythings code approved, makes job easier, and works, and has been proven over and over again, then i will use it. why waste time letting a piece of copper dry out, sweat it then find out you didnt get that last spec of water out of pipe. Back to step one....its the same old story. Thats just me though:cowboy:


Have you ever used the tool tattooed in your AV?

Galvanized water pipe can be assembled under wet conditions, and has been proven by time, much more so than any fitting that relies on a rubber O ring that will rot in time.


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## Ron

Yea I think I'll stop using shark bites and start using Just For Copper.

FAST, EASY, and SIMPLE way to plumb with copper.
No training required, no risk of fire, no burns, 100% perfect bond every time!


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## nhmaster3015

Spidy, love you man :thumbsup:


Ah yes copper glue, fantastic stuff. Too bad Billy Mays bit the big one :laughing:


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## Don The Plumber

Indie said:


> I always forget to take our kit, that is similar to that, but there is always a way to make it work. I have some sharkbites on the van, but have yet to use one in over a year.


 I don't know what type of work you do (comm. or res.) but what I do is have a 1/2 & 3/4 jet sweat right in my solder box all the time. That is the most common sizes for me anyway. You'd be surprised how often you use them, when readily available. I carry a whole kit up to 2" in my truck, but rarely use that. But I use the ones in my solder kit, all the time. just saying. And they're pretty inexpensive too.


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## justin

Killertoiletspider said:


> Have you ever used the tool tattooed in your AV?
> 
> Galvanized water pipe can be assembled under wet conditions, and has been proven by time, much more so than any fitting that relies on a rubber O ring that will rot in time.


that is a 36" pipe wrench. next time ill just demo the house tighten up two fittings then call out the builder to start over. :laughing:


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## user4

nhmaster3015 said:


> Spidy, love you man :thumbsup:



I am here to pound the lead.


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## Ron

Glad to see you around KTS :thumbup:


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## Neplumber

I use sharkbites fairly regularly, just like with any fittings, there are some that will leak, but overall, I think they are good....


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## nhmaster3015

Killertoiletspider said:


> I am here to pound the lead.


Well then, true up your inner and outer and let's pour some lead :thumbsup:


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## user4

Ron said:


> Glad to see you around KTS :thumbup:


It's nice to know someone is.


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## tnoisaw

Ron said:


> And how would you fix this if there was no shark bites?


Great question. I would have to go through the ceiling below.


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## Ron

tnoisaw said:


> Great question. I would have to go through the ceiling below.


Bingo, Great Answer. :thumbsup:


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## RealLivePlumber

Neplumber said:


> there are some that will leak, but overall, I think they are good....


Now that's a signature line if I ever read one!


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## Protech

I prolly use about 4 per year. I keep the proper transition fittings on the truck to go from cpvc to pex to copper to PB to glavo. There are rare occasions where the customer pisses me off and/or the place is a dump and they don't want to pay to do it the right way......and in those cases they get the sharkbite.


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## TheMaster

Protech said:


> I prolly use about 4 per year. I keep the proper transition fittings on the truck to go from cpvc to pex to copper to PB to glavo. There are rare occasions where the customer pisses me off and/or the place is a dump and they don't want to pay to do it the right way......and in those cases they get the sharkbite.


So in other words you do it right until sombody pisses you off or they dont have any money or live in a dump......in those cases you dont mind doing what you consider...wrong. Ok I got it.


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## ckoch407

I do not use the sb brand at all under any circumstance because that is the "you can do it we can help" flagship brand that replaced qest and zurn on the shelves of home cheapo. PEX pipe, fittings, push-fit ball valves, wh connectors, angle stops, etc. I absolutely refuse to let an owner see a professional use what they see on DIY network/boxstore shelves. What is left in their mind to separate a Pro from a DIYer after the Pros have 
endorsed it? 


Having said that, I carry exactly 4 each Premier brand couplings and caps for 1, 3/4, and 1/2 as a temporary in-case-of-emergency-break-the-glass situation. I think I have used the caps in remodels once or twice, and couplings twice,and not as a permanent fix.


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## user2090

Don The Plumber said:


> I don't know what type of work you do (comm. or res.) but what I do is have a 1/2 & 3/4 jet sweat right in my solder box all the time. That is the most common sizes for me anyway. You'd be surprised how often you use them, when readily available. I carry a whole kit up to 2" in my truck, but rarely use that. But I use the ones in my solder kit, all the time. just saying. And they're pretty inexpensive too.


I do residential service. If I put Jett Swett in my bag they would just get damaged. Thankfully, the guy I did most of my apprenticeship with, insisted we learn the hard way to do everything, it makes you appreciate the right tools, and also allows you to figure out how to make it work, when you don't have the newest tool. 

To the fans of sharkbites: Honestly, could you fix the problem without the sharkbite? How many of the SB fan club are flatrate guys, that are just trying to get in and out faster to make the most bang for the buck?


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## Richard Hilliard

I do flat rate and do not have any shark bite connectors in my truck and will not use tham at any time or any persons home.I do not have balls at the bottom of a solder joint and will not accept a silver fitting. I am very quirky about having a nice neat solder joint and using the proper amount of solder.

I do not tolerate shoddy work and doing a half assed job no matter what condition the work area is in and who owns the home. Shoddy workmanship is found in any shop where the people have very little pride in thier work ,appearance and in themselves.


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## gear junkie

I personally love them. They've made me quite a bit of money having to cut them out and repair properly. I hope everyone out there keep using them. I'll probably go to HD and nick every o-ring out there just to drum up more business. This was a joke btw.


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## affordabledrain

used one last week. was in a difficult location to attempt to solder. I will Use them again for applications like that. I just don't see the point of using them all the time.
BTW I HATE PEX


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## gear junkie

Figured out some time ago that not having to worry about a leak outweighs any convience of using a SB.


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## TheMaster

Here is a good use for a sharkbite.....I dont have time to sit and watch cpvc cure in a storage room in a 65,000 house. Hell no.


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## Ron

TheMaster said:


> Here is a good use for a sharkbite.....I dont have time to sit and watch cpvc cure in a storage room in a 65,000 house. Hell no.



Looks good TM :thumbup:


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## Protech

Pretty much. You catch on quick.



TheMaster said:


> So in other words you do it right until sombody pisses you off or they dont have any money or live in a dump......in those cases you dont mind doing what you consider...wrong. Ok I got it.


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## TheMaster

Protech said:


> Pretty much. You catch on quick.


Thats why when I read a website like yours I know the guy really doesn't mean it. Its for show. You'll do whatever wrong or right depending on your mood or when it comes down to money........rather than just leaving the job.


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## user2090

Protech said:


> Pretty much. You catch on quick.


I love capitalism. Free to choose you own method.


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## Redwood

I use SharkBites in the winter with garden hose adapters and stainless braided washing machine hoses to temporarily fix freeze up leaks...

Once I find all the leaks and have the system holding pressure, I drain down and fix them all at once...

Saves a bunch of time...:thumbup:


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## Protech

You are entitled to your (frequently wrong) opinion :thumbsup:
And no, I'm not going to go back and forth with you about this. I think at this point everybody on this forum knows who is who.



TheMaster said:


> Thats why when I read a website like yours I know the guy really doesn't mean it. Its for show. You'll do whatever wrong or right depending on your mood or when it comes down to money........rather than just leaving the job.


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## plumbrob

Killertoiletspider said:


> You have no problem installing a pump system that has the potential of poisoning a municipal water supply, yet you balk at using a sharkbite fitting?
> 
> I fail to see the logic involved in this thought process.


Really? a sump pump poisoning the municipal water system? come on. install a back flow preventer.:laughing:


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## stillaround

I use them. I hope they hold up. They are code and convenient. I'm not into proving some point about the destruction of the trade....and I dont care for the posture of some plumbers who go around bad mouthing approved fittings as if they were superior somehow. They are not.


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## nhmaster3015

So just because a fitting is approved then it must be good? Need I remind you that polybutlyne was approved for man years also. Sharkbites are hack plumbing


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## stillaround

Its only your opinion.


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## TheMaster

nhmaster3015 said:


> So just because a fitting is approved then it must be good? Need I remind you that polybutlyne was approved for man years also. Sharkbites are hack plumbing


How do you feel about braided stainless fixture connectors? When you buy a toilet do you change the flushvalve from plastic to brass? When was the last time you purchased a toilet and what brand was it?


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## Tommy plumber

I was working on a slab leak today. After I opened the block wall and found 1/2" copper sleeved in black poly, I cut the copper and use the removable type sharkbite or gatorbite cap, and after I find what line feeds which fixtures, I can quickly remove the gatorbite 1/2" cap and proceed with repair. Good for temp. work. The gatorbites should NEVER be used in a wall. I can't imagine a code allowing them in a wall.


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## Titan Plumbing

They was a time when ALL the plumbers could not believe PVC was any good at all. That's stuff is just crap and it will kill our trade......


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## Redwood

Tommy plumber said:


> The gatorbites should NEVER be used in a wall. I can't imagine a code allowing them in a wall.


Funny though...

They all do!:whistling2:


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## Christina

j.funk said:


> *Should real plumbers use sharkbite fittings or are they for handymen?*


*It seems to me we have had this conversation before in a previous thread...* :whistling2:



Christina said:


> ...A skilled guy should be able to turn a sharkbite situation into more money anyway? Are you kidding me? A half intelligent plumber knows that the code is made to protect the life, home and health. Repairing a small leak on a copper run for a time with two sharkbites and a whole lot less labor can get the water turned back on for a family so they can get their running water back on! That to me is a lot more important than trying to upsale! If the family can first, afford the repipe then yes, it is time to sell a new system. Otherwise, you are selling alot of time and material on items that were not necessarily _needed_ at that time!! If the house needs repiped that is fine... but I am not going to require a complete repipe when a small leak can be temporarily fixed and they have a chance to come up with funds to replace the entire system....
> 
> *...I use sharkbites when NECESSARY to get water services restored for families so that they can bathe, drink and prepare meals!!*
> 
> ​


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## PlumberPete

I only use Shark Bites in emergencies, to get someone through the night. I'll come back the next day and repipe or make a permanent fix with copper. I understand the Walmart job but, what about using a "Jet Sweat" and a Full Port Ball valve? I'd give it another 10 years and sweating copper will be a thing of the past.


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## Tommy plumber

TheMaster said:


> How do you feel about braided stainless fixture connectors? When you buy a toilet do you change the flushvalve from plastic to brass? When was the last time you purchased a toilet and what brand was it?


 
I still have with me a 3/4" s/s braided W/H supply line that burst on 6th floor of a condo when people were out-of-state. Condo maint. men got a call from people on 4th floor who saw water leaking from their ceiling. That is a lazy plumber or a real hack. We should be hard piping everything. It burns my behind when at counter of Ferguson's I see another plumber buying those copper W/H connectors.


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## nhmaster3015

TheMaster said:


> How do you feel about braided stainless fixture connectors? When you buy a toilet do you change the flushvalve from plastic to brass? When was the last time you purchased a toilet and what brand was it?



I'll start with stainless steel flex connectors. If you take the time to properly rough the house then a standard 12" chrome supply will bolt right up with no cutting or major bending. Stainless connectors look like crap, get tangled up on things under the kitchen sink and no, I don't use them. Be hones here though. How many minutes does using a ss connector really save? and they are 3 times more expensive. 

Plastic flush valves should outlast a brass one but things being made cheaply these days hardly ever do. To put it another way, I regularly run across 30 to 50 year old brass flush valves that still work just fine while 5 to 10 years is probably tops for a Fluidmaster. I sell mostly Toto Toilets and the occasional Kohler 

I've asked this question many times before but I'm gonna ask it again. Not that I expect an answer but rather I hope you take the time to think about this.

Why are we all so caught up in saving time or doing things that are easy?


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## stillaround

nhmaster3015 said:


> Why are we all so caught up in saving time or doing things that are easy?


 
Maybe its easier on the ol' ticker...


I took my time and thought about it...a sharkbite a day might help your blood pressure.


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## TheMaster

Tommy plumber said:


> I still have with me a 3/4" s/s braided W/H supply line that burst on 6th floor of a condo when people were out-of-state. Condo maint. men got a call from people on 4th floor who saw water leaking from their ceiling. That is a lazy plumber or a real hack. We should be hard piping everything. It burns my behind when at counter of Ferguson's I see another plumber buying those copper W/H connectors.


I do not use those braided quicky lines.....I think they are JUNK....I find them leaking all the time at the connection to the valve.



nhmaster3015 said:


> I'll start with stainless steel flex connectors. If you take the time to properly rough the house then a standard 12" chrome supply will bolt right up with no cutting or major bending. Stainless connectors look like crap, get tangled up on things under the kitchen sink and no, I don't use them. Be hones here though. How many minutes does using a ss connector really save? and they are 3 times more expensive.
> 
> Plastic flush valves should outlast a brass one but things being made cheaply these days hardly ever do. To put it another way, I regularly run across 30 to 50 year old brass flush valves that still work just fine while 5 to 10 years is probably tops for a Fluidmaster. I sell mostly Toto Toilets and the occasional Kohler
> 
> I've asked this question many times before but I'm gonna ask it again. Not that I expect an answer but rather I hope you take the time to think about this.
> 
> Why are we all so caught up in saving time or doing things that are easy?


In the real word time is money. Thats why people are caught up with saving time. I try to find a balance between saving time and an installation that that doesn't leak or cause me problems......I dont care if its plastic or brass so long as it works for a reasonable amount of time. Fluidmaster ballcocks can and do last longer than 10 years depending on water quality and what the end user puts in the tank such as bleach tablets.

Fluidmaster ballcocks cost me about 6.00 each......compared to a brass one at 30.00 or more. When I installed my TOTO toilets I replaced the tank bolts and the ballcock. I used wolverine tank bolts and fluidmaster ballcocks.....and that was 10 years ago.....and they still work perfectly.

I use PEX fixture supply lines......and I have NEVER had one fail. I buy them for under a 1.00 each and sell them for 5.00. I've sold over 1,000 of them in the past couple years that I have been keeping up with the materials I use closer.

I do repair for the most part so I dont have a say in how a building is roughed in.

Now why dont you change those plastic flushvalves to BRASS on the Toto toilets you buy? Maybe because the plastic ones work fine and you really dont believe its worth the money to change it? Worth the time? why dont you replace them?


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## nhmaster3015

How dare you argue with me I am the Master :blink: I got here first.


I said in theory plastic should outlast brass and it probably would if it was not so poorly manufactured, but plastic parts wear and break and chlorene is hard on it and makes it brittle. In the end though I'm only looking for things to last a reasonable amount of time before they need fixing or replacing. So what's reasonable? Dunno, I guess some of that has to do with how old you are. I grew up in a time when we expected things to last forever. These days, not so much I suppose. We do use pex supply tubes for all the reasons you do though if it can be seen we always go chrome or matching finish. Only hacks put braided supplies on pedestal lavs.


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## user2090

nhmaster3015 said:


> Why are we all so caught up in saving time or doing things that are easy?



Let me answer that in a few words. I am sure that I will get blasted for it, since there are many threads dedicated to the subject. Let me create a list of reasons on why it is done.

1. Money
2. Greed
3. Flat-rate

Get in get out, and maximize billing, right? Isn't that why we plumb, to make as much money as possible, with the least amount of effort put into it. Do work good enough to last. Sorry, nhmaster3015, but after nearly a year on here I have had my eyes open to the way that plumbing is done. Honestly, I am sorry that I was not able to be a plumber in the days of lead, and hard piping everything, when someone that was not a plumber, would not even consider trying the work we do. But, alas, I am a plumber in the time of quick fixes and high bills.


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## Ron

Well said Indie, your my hero. :thumbup:


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## user2090

Ron said:


> Well said Indie, your my hero. :thumbup:


You making fun of me Ron?


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## Ron

Indie said:


> You making fun of me Ron?


Anyone who can stand up to master nhmaster deserves to be recognized. :yes:


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## Richard Hilliard

Only flat raters buy stainless steel supply lines? That is an insane statement.There are not that many flat rate companies compared to time and material to make it profitable, think again.

They cost more than hard supplies, they can save time however they do not save that much time. I am old school and use the hard supply lines.

These same things were stated when plastic drains came into existence and copper replaced galvanized pipe.

old timers like lead an wiping lead and galvanized pipe.
Then cooper water pipe and DWV with cast iron leaded joints. By the way this was the death of plumbing in the minds.

Then copper and cast iron with rubber doughnuts

Plastic dwv and copper water lines

Now plastic dwv and plastic water
Supply lines included in this change.


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## stillaround

I dont have problems with braided lav or toilet supplies...I like them. I dont have a problem with shark bites. I dont have a problem with plastic. I like easy. 
The plumbing world is what it is...you can adapt, pick and choose what you want to use or not use and leave the other guy alone. Unless:

1. You cant cope with change and some inner turmoil has put you on the last crusade..like a plumbing Knight Templar ( Don Quixote )
2. There are some serious deficiencies in a product...and I dont mean because one time you saw a house flooded because of a braided supply tube. Cause Ive seen houses flooded because someone flushed the toilet and walked away.....a little perspective please ......

Unless you are in a big city with restrictive codes
1. Copper is too expensive ( not because of greed ) to pipe a new house
2. Cast iron is prehistoric
3. Chrome supply tubes are unneccessary 

and life could still go on sweetly........maybe not in Maine.


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## nhmaster3015

Yes
Yes
and Yes but does not have to be

But, if you take a little extra time. Use only the best materials, have pride in your work and are good with your customers, over time your business will grow. Through the current slow down, we are pretty much the only large plumbing company in the area left. Not only that we are slammed with work right now.


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## RealLivePlumber

Farley, you idiot.

We are plumbers. 

We don't need to choose a plumber.

We don't need your advice on how to choose a plumber.

Go away.


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## Redwood

michaelfarley said:


> i think When choosing a plumber, be sure to get several quotes on your project. Ask to
> see the plumber's license and qualifications and if it's a large project, ensure that the plumber has the correct insurances.


Farley Get Lost!
An don't let the door whack ya in the kiester...


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## Ron

Gone


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## Tommy plumber

You guys that use s/s flex supply lines have never known of one to burst? Are you kidding? Or that cheap plastic nut that tightens to the brass shank of a ballcock, you've never seen it crack, and cause a minor flood? Mr Protech, you extoll the virtues of how wonderful the 8-ply supply lines are, what about when the plastic nut cracks? If you lay awake at night worrying when your apprentice uses a 3/8" nut and ferrule on a w/c supply line, then YOU haven't taught him well enough. Those who say to hard pipe a W/H in copper but then turn around and use flex lav supplies are hypocrites. I thouroughly enjoy being able to bend copper supply lines with a tubing benders (a hack doesn't know what that tool is and probably half the plumbers on this site) and in using sweat stops. That, my fellow plumbers separates the men from the boys. :yes:


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## user2090

Tommy plumber said:


> You guys that use s/s flex supply lines have never known of one to burst? Are you kidding? Or that cheap plastic nut that tightens to the brass shank of a ballcock, you've never seen it crack, and cause a minor flood? Mr Protech, you extoll the virtues of how wonderful the 8-ply supply lines are, what about when the plastic nut cracks? If you lay awake at night worrying when your apprentice uses a 3/8" nut and ferrule on a w/c supply line, then YOU haven't taught him well enough. Those who say to hard pipe a W/H in copper but then turn around and use flex lav supplies are hypocrites. I thouroughly enjoy being able to bend copper supply lines with a tubing benders (a hack doesn't know what that tool is and probably half the plumbers on this site) and in using sweat stops. That, my fellow plumbers separates the men from the boys. :yes:


Well said. I really don't see the problem with pex supplies or s.s. braided line used to hook up to fixtures. I was speaking more in general plumbing practices. 

We are starting to reap, and will continue to reap the effects of inferior materials, that have been installed. How many times do you make or hear the statement "They don't make things like they used to." I guess that it will keep us in work.

Something I have picked up on lately. Inferior brass from china that is used in faucets, is starting to fail. I had a call for a shower valve leak, in a 7 years old house. When I pulled it apart, the brass body was worn down, and pitted. This is just the beginning. 

Cheap is cheap, there is no arguing that.


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## Will

I never use Sharkbites. I don't believe in them. That said though, I know of a plumber that uses them alot on pex repairs. They work great under houses with little to no room under them. Since pex is not rigid I don't see how it could ever blow apart. If you use them in the right scenario I can see there use, you just won't catch me using them. I have yet to hear of anyone that I know ever having a problem with Sharkbites as far as leaking or blowing apart if installed right. My pride won't let me use them.


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## TheSkinnyGuy

Ron said:


> Yea I think I'll stop using shark bites and start using Just For Copper.
> 
> FAST, EASY, and SIMPLE way to plumb with copper.
> No training required, no risk of fire, no burns, 100% perfect bond every time!


sad as this may sound I have worked with a guy or two who refuse to solder unless they feel they absolutely have to. They'll use this junk over doing things right every time.

As far as sharkbites go, I have used about 4 in the last 4 years, but only in a situation where there was no way to isolate the line, and a jet-sweat wouldn't work either (and the customer did NOT want to pay for an Isolation Valve either). I had 10 minutes to shut the system down and drain it, or I could come back after hours. I could not get the clearance for after-hours work, so ... ... sharkbite it, and call it done (can't call it good if it isn't good). So yeah, I think that there are some applications that sharkies may be the best solution. Just my two bits, for what its worth.


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## pauliplumber

Tommy plumber said:


> You guys that use s/s flex supply lines have never known of one to burst? Are you kidding? Or that cheap plastic nut that tightens to the brass shank of a ballcock, you've never seen it crack, and cause a minor flood? Mr Protech, you extoll the virtues of how wonderful the 8-ply supply lines are, what about when the plastic nut cracks? If you lay awake at night worrying when your apprentice uses a 3/8" nut and ferrule on a w/c supply line, then YOU haven't taught him well enough. Those who say to hard pipe a W/H in copper but then turn around and use flex lav supplies are hypocrites. I thouroughly enjoy being able to bend copper supply lines with a tubing benders (a hack doesn't know what that tool is and probably half the plumbers on this site) and in using sweat stops. That, my fellow plumbers separates the men from the boys. :yes:


 

I have never seen in person a SS braided supply that burst. Only a couple on the net that were the older type. Our water pressure here ranges from 80-140 PSI. 

I only use ridgid supplies on pedistals. Anywhere else not necessary, unless of course they make you feel like a man.


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## stillaround

All the lav supplies braided I deal with have metal nuts....I havent found toilet supplies with a metal nut...I have seen a split plastic nut on ss braided. Most ballcocks here are all plastic with plastic nuts.
Well pressure is 65 max but in the city some areas havent seen fit to regulate and the house pressure is over 110 at times. That does scare me with plastic nut braided toilet supplies. I also dont use braided on a pedistal unless its roughed in tight and high and its easier and hidden. My lavs are toggled and hang safely without the pedistal, so ........................................using a sharkbite, braided supply, or whatever doesnt make one a hack....as long as I suppose there is a working knowledge of the risks with respect to each individual situation.


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## nhmaster3015

Numbers

sharkbite coupling about 4 bucks and 20ish seconds to install

Pex coupling about a buck and 30 seconds to install


Duh :bangin::bangin:


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## Titan Plumbing

stillaround said:


> All the lav supplies braided I deal with have metal nuts....*I havent found toilet supplies with a metal nut.*..I have seen a split plastic nut on ss braided. Most ballcocks here are all plastic with plastic nuts.
> Well pressure is 65 max but in the city some areas havent seen fit to regulate and the house pressure is over 110 at times. That does scare me with plastic nut braided toilet supplies. I also dont use braided on a pedistal unless its roughed in tight and high and its easier and hidden. My lavs are toggled and hang safely without the pedistal, so ........................................using a sharkbite, braided supply, or whatever doesnt make one a hack....as long as I suppose there is a working knowledge of the risks with respect to each individual situation.


^ Look for Eastman part no 48088, I use them all the time.


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## stillaround

Im missing the context..*Numbers *threw me off. If you are saying go for crimp fitting first..nolo contendre ( a little patty hearst lingo for your ripe age )...
copper to pex on a repair would be a better example. Sweat a pex adapter 15 minutes ( get the torch out etc) if there isnt a water issue..cost buck and a half. Still a better repair. But then I'd be missing an opportunity to privately aggrivate you. Someone needs to send you a bouquet of sharkbites for your birthday. 

Im curious to see how these "accursed fittings hold up". 

The insulting assumption that someone who wants to use these fittings places them in category of ill repute is the most distasteful part of your personal argument. I wonder, have the people closest to you been pleading for you to mellow out or are they afraid to speak up:laughing:.


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## nhmaster3015

Swear to god, looked at an entire house that the homeowner had re-piped with sharkbites and Lowe's crap pex. The stupid ******* could have hired two plumbers for what those damn sharkbites musta costed him


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