# Box store boycott



## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

In response to another thread about Home Depot hamstringing contractors I thought it best to share ideas on another thread. 

Does anyone have an idea of what can be don't to promote a boycott and voice out displeasure? 

I propose at least a bumper sticker. Looking for ideas, keep it clean and legal. Lol

Will discuss funding later.


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

How about bigboxboycott.com? Color scheme would represent the stores. 

If done on a bumper sticker or other types of signage it could draw attention to the movement and identify who is a participant.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

i think menards figured this out on their own. they advertise that we are your supplier, not your competition.


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> i think menards figured this out on their own. they advertise that we are your supplier, not your competition.


I believe if we are loud enough and prove we can effect the bottom line maybe the big orange and blue would back off. 

It's a guarantee they won't stop if we stay silent.


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

They're kinda our competition: "10% lower than any plumber contractor".... why can't you buy nothing in any HVAC supply? Unless you have license to do it..... home depot just sale a/c filters not Freon etc. Sale plumbing parts (cheap articles but still plumbing) and also try to compete with us? They have a good idea and I love it because when the time comes up and peoples figure what hd did in theirs home, they'll call us. I'm with you Hoosier :thumbsup:


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

I don't think it's crazy to say if Home Depot and lowes survive another century they will employ "professionals" from all trades and continue to drastically undercut everyone. I have an employee who used to work for lowes. He is probably the most hardworking and dedicated employee I have ever had, defiantly not a complainer but he can tell you stories for days about who terrible lowes is in regards to their employees. It is an evil that needs to be stopped. Just wait until Home Depot or lowes or whatever buys roto rooter or Ben franklin or some other nation wide company


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

Hoosier Plumber said:


> I believe if we are loud enough and prove we can effect the bottom line maybe the big orange and blue would back off.
> 
> It's a guarantee they won't stop if we stay silent.


I can't find a better way to say it. You hit the nail on the head. Baby steps is what it will take...

"Only hire licensed plumbers, ask your installer for their license"
Plumber against unlicensed work at the big box store

I don't know we need ideas? I don't think we can mention names, but I'm down for whatever you folks come up with.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

Just get MOMS DEMAND ACTION in on it:laughing:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

You know, you're barking up the wrong tree. Bad government is the enemy here not a capitalist company. If the state lawmakers prohibited the sale of gas pipe for example, then big box would be hamstrung and have to comply. Air conditioning contractors have the law on their side. The federal EPA does not permit freon {or whatever the refrigerant is called nowadays} to be sold without the proper credentials; ie: mechanical contractor's license. 

I voiced my opinion to my local counter guys one day. They were told that they will sell any plumbing product to any ying yang with a pulse as long as he has the money. But the A/C trade gets protection. Without the EPA certificate, no one is purchasing A/C equipment. The local supply houses and big box would have to_ voluntarily_ refuse to sell to un-licensed individuals absent any government regulations or laws. 

Rather than go the route of boycotting thousands of stores who have alot more resources than we do, I would prefer to get in contact with local lawmakers. 

In the meantime, I am searching out customers who want to pay my price. Those customers are out there. They have the means to pay a professional and want a quality job. I may have to cull out the bottom-feeders to get to the decent ones, but it's worth it.

I think fighting big box is an uphill battle. Even contacting lawmakers is probably futile since big box will send lobbyists to undermine our efforts. I am not against contacting lawmakers, but it won't be easy. When I contact my state licensing agency to turn in un-licensed hacks, they hardly take notice. Enforcement is lax at best.

I am not a negative person. Just realistic.


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

Tommy plumber said:


> You know, you're barking up the wrong tree. Bad government is the enemy here not a capitalist company. If the state lawmakers prohibited the sale of gas pipe for example, then big box would be hamstrung and have to comply. Air conditioning contractors have the law on their side. The federal EPA does not permit freon {or whatever the refrigerant is called nowadays} to be sold without the proper credentials; ie: mechanical contractor's license.
> 
> I voiced my opinion to my local counter guys one day. They were told that they will sell any plumbing product to any ying yang with a pulse as long as he has the money. But the A/C trade gets protection. Without the EPA certificate, no one is purchasing A/C equipment. The local supply houses and big box would have to_ voluntarily_ refuse to sell to un-licensed individuals absent any government regulations or laws.
> 
> ...


You have to start somewhere. 

Inaction guarantees no results. 

The whole industry needs to stand up and demand change. We have just as much access to law makers as the Depot, but choose not to use it because it would be difficult and take time. We would rather complain and do nothing. 

I think its a whole package deal if you want to make a difference. 

1. Protect your own house: Find paying customers first and foremost. Your company and personal success come first. 

2. Give back: Pay it back or forward for the industry or trade that allows you to make a good living. You didn't come across the knowledge of plumbing and start working in the trade without help. The least you can do is nothing but take care of number one, the next least thing would be to have a hand in training the next generation. 

3. Advocate: Be a agent and voice of change. You work in the trade you know what is wrong and what is right.


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

Tommy plumber said:


> You know, you're barking up the wrong tree. Bad government is the enemy here not a capitalist company. If the state lawmakers prohibited the sale of gas pipe for example, then big box would be hamstrung and have to comply. Air conditioning contractors have the law on their side. The federal EPA does not permit freon {or whatever the refrigerant is called nowadays} to be sold without the proper credentials; ie: mechanical contractor's license.
> 
> How do we get the above done for us plumbers?
> 
> ...


You have a point, but the real reality is we don't do anything about it. The cslb is suppose to be on our side, but what do they do if you report someone? I've reported people and guess what they did NOTHING!

So where do we go from here is the question?

Just to clear things up this is not just about home depot it is an entire industry problem. The law in this case CSLB not doing their job and much more.


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

Hoosier Plumber said:


> In response to another thread about Home Depot hamstringing contractors I thought it best to share ideas on another thread. Does anyone have an idea of what can be don't to promote a boycott and voice out displeasure? I propose at least a bumper sticker. Looking for ideas, keep it clean and legal. Lol Will discuss funding later.



We can't even stop unlicensed hacks how in the world are going to take care of home cheapo


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

I had to go to Home Despot today. Wasn't impressed with the customers or the employees. The only people who will use them is for the Home Depot credit line.

Damn, I may have made a mess of their stock, too.....:laughing:


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

Leach713 said:


> We can't even stop unlicensed hacks how in the world are going to take care of home cheapo


One step at a time. 

Getting people on board and organized is the biggest hurdle to change. 

I'm an active member of the PHCC and their representation leaves me disappointed. A lot of meetings are nothing more than talk. B

We need a collection of plumbers who are willing to put effort and/or money into effecting change. 

What would happen if we flooded state representatives with letters expressing outrage at the lack of action on their part? Our paid representatives don't represent because we don't demand they do. 

It's early in the process and I'm sure we can formulate some good ideas and action plan.


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## jnaas2 (Dec 6, 2012)

Home depots in my area are now advertising heat and a/c repair


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

You are fighting a huge monster business in their playground: politics.

Why not a smear campaign instead with the hook being using private contractors? Start a organization that has members donating money and time to smear and advertise.


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

Letters is a good idea. We should have a template we can follow. Is there some type of online form we can post a link to that we can use? I'm gonna look into it. We should write to the cslb demanding they do something about unlicensed activity that gets reported. Maybe if we can start a fund to help them with a donation of whatever $1 or $5 dollar. Just throwing ideas here.


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

If we all come together... Have you seen all the plumbers around. I can count more plumbers than anything else.


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

I'm working on trying to put some stuff together but without help it's going to take a long time. 

Input is welcome. 

I suggest

Formal organization like P.H.C.C. That can be funded and handle the representation on the political front, and offer anonymity to those who want it. 

Develop a focused campaign for change. Letters to state and national representatives. 

With strong representation and effort we can pressure manufactures as well. 

This is only possible banding together much like unions. 

Now who wants to volunteer? Lol.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

I suggest going after Rheem. Refuse to repair or service any Rheem water heater. If they are installing an inferior product, it's an easy sale to convince the homeowner to go with you. I actually bought a Rheem short on a Sunday, dented out of the box. Plus it took 45 min to get it off the top shelf. I left a review on their website which was unapproved on their site. I edited the review and it was posted, two weeks later it had been pulled again. Anytime a plumber see's a Rheem that has failed, document it with pictures. I could snatch up a URL rheemfailures.com which would allow you to post a picture and description of the crap water heater.


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

I found this maybe we could use it.



https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/



http://petitions.moveon.org/create_start.html


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

If you are going to have success at squeezing HD, you need to be prepared to squeeze the brands they promote.

Are you willing (and able) to boycott:

Kohler
Watts
Ward
Nibco
Fluidmaster
Cash-Acme
Delta
Price Pfister
Moen
American Standard
Jacuzzi
Charlotte Pipe
Wolverine Tube
Thrift
Hercules
Oaty
Rectorseal
Blue Monster
Channel Lock
Knipex
Johnson Levels
Dewalt
Milwaukee
Porter Cable
Lincoln

That's just the short list off the top of my head that I have seen at the HD and Lowes in OKC.

Oh wait, there is one more little company that some plumbers patronize....

Ridgid.

Are you gents mad because all these companies (via the box store) are catering to the retail consumer? Or just maybe we should realize it is because as a trade...we failed to.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

You also better boycott Ferguson, Desert Industrial, Hirsch Pipe and Supply, PWO and all the other supply houses cause they all promote they're open to the public. I'd love to see HD go but it'll never happen.

We'd send a better message by only buying our material from Barnett, Hodesco and other supply houses that only sell to plumbers.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> ...
> Are you gents mad because all these companies (via the box store) are catering to the retail consumer? Or just maybe we should realize it is because as a trade...we failed to.


You can't say that to us! We're American Victims! 

Nothing is our fault! We can eat, sex, drug, smoke, speed, and be totally incompetent without taking responsibility for our actions!

We can push consumers into the arms of Big Biziness with our inexperience and high prices because that's what we can do and you can't say anything or we'll be insulted and tell Daddy and he'll post at you!

Are you a foreigner or something?


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> If you are going to have success at squeezing HD, you need to be prepared to squeeze the brands they promote.
> 
> Are you willing (and able) to boycott:
> 
> ...


Good point. Part of the process has to be deciding where to start and who to work on first. 

Those manufacturers will adjust with time and effort. 

An outright boycott of all companies associated with box stores is insanity. 

Small steps people, small steps.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Hoosier Plumber said:


> Good point. Part of the process has to be deciding where to start and who to work on first. Those manufacturers will adjust with time and effort. An outright boycott of all companies associated with box stores is insanity. Small steps people, small steps.


Okay, small steps it is...but in the right direction.

What do you want as a result? The failure of the big box, or the success and stability of the Plumbing Business Operator. Answering that question is the first small step. Then the second step (and all other steps) become glaringly obvious. 

The most important second step: Look in the mirror and change that which you can. Stock up on trade wisdom, product knowledge, technical expertise, marketing savvy, and incomparable service. Then sell those five things to those consumers that have need of them. There always was, are, and will be masses of consumers that need (and want) them. 

In the early 90's Herb Kohler stated that plumbing service would become an install and repair only revenue stream and that the larger share of fixture sales was going to be retail within the next decade. He was not wrong and ALL manufacturers that matter followed suit. Realize that you and we combined cannot and will not redirect a retail giant. The genie has forever left the bottle.

No politician will hear your plea favorably. It will just come across as protectionist in nature. Plumbers as a group do not (and never will) have the political clout to get plumbing supplies pulled from retail shelves. If the EPA had not put the lid on refrigerant sales, the HVAC trade would have their own aisle at Lowe's as well. But even before that, plumbing was viewed as a retail item. 


Evolve or die.
- Charlie Greer


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

The goal is for the law to be enforced better. Going after every manufacturer is not the answer. We can write and ask for the cslb to do its job and at the same time ask how we can assist them. Up to now we reported people and nothing was done. Is it because of lack of funds? Maybe we can create a fund to help. 

Why is anyone allowed to purchased supplies that by law are to be installed by a licensed professional? Enforcing this is the goal. We can live without ac but we can't live without water which thanks to the plumbers we have in every house. If we can get the law to be enforced everything will fall into place. It doesn't hurt to ask. Knowing that we tried is better than not trying at all.

No one knows if some one will listen or do something because we have not tried anything so to say it won't happen we simply don't know that as of now. We all have been told at some point in our lives that we can't do something or that it is too hard. What did we do?

Lost of changes have been made. Look in our history it only takes one person to stand up and the rest to follow. What if the big corporations united roto r, Ben f, rescue r and whoever else has the bank and more power to do something? We are not that small... 

To get the big box to close and the manufacturers to do the same is not the idea.


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> Okay, small steps it is...but in the right direction.
> 
> What do you want as a result? The failure of the big box, or the success and stability of the Plumbing Business Operator. Answering that question is the first small step. Then the second step (and all other steps) become glaringly obvious.
> 
> ...


My goal is not and will not be the death of big box, wholesalers, or anyone who sells DIY. That is unattainable. 

Promotion and protection of the trade is why I will be involved. 

I see an organization that is funded by professionals for professionals. 

Education, sharing info, advocating, action, etc...... Again what the PHCC and others should be and were founded to be. 


The PHCC has had a campaign to harass unlincensed contractors and overwhelm the state attorney general in taking more action. It has had some small success but I don't think that is where the change needs to take place. 

We need to bully state lawmakers into making changes that allow for local enforcement. Local inspector love to use the out of not being responsible. Id love to see that changed. It can be done if enough state residents made some noise. 

That is one part of the change I want to effect.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

do you see the problem at all?

Every hardware store sells plumbing,home centers are not new by the way. The size and scope of lowes and home depot are new.

back in the day there were Stambaughs which had quite a few states, 84 lumber was another company that stocked plumbing and heating goods and sold to the public. In Florida the Big store was Scotty's and they went out of business with Home depot and Lowes. Now don't forget Wal mart and Sams club plus target selling toilets and faucets. It is just a matter of time before water heaters are there also.

Buying form Barnetts ,wolverine,plumb master etc will end up chasing your local wholesaler out of business . Then these mail order places will cheapen their products even more then they already have . Remember Home Depot purchased a plumbing wholesaler Hughes supply.

Accept what is happening decided to strengthen your ability to compete with these places by increasing your skill. Adding to your plumbing skill by being able to think,design a strategic plan that will give you the edge over the box stores and their selling ability. Add to your ability to bs the customer with conversations that deliver information while discovering what the customer will buy,how they can afford you, what words to use,how to align their reasons to your products and services and more.Easy way to explain how to communicate better with your customer.


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## MNplumb1 (Feb 17, 2014)

This might/should be its own thread but how many of you have a showroom or sell to public from there shop. I know around here there are a few shops with doors open to public not sure what they sell but I know I was out of town and went to one to buy a thermostat really is no different than a big box store is it? Just a thought...


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## APP14 (Jan 21, 2014)

What needs to happen IMO is enforcement on unlicensed plumbers and businesses. If I had a storefront and advertised I was a lawyer immediately the hammer would come down on me. Jail time and fines. But guys operate plumbing businesss everyday and nothing is done. There is a plumbing shop 2 blocks from my house. The guy who owns and runs the place doesn't doesn't have a plumbing contractors license or masters. Hell he doesn't even have a journey man's license. The guys he has work for him are unlicensed. They have been there for 3 years. I have told the city inspector, the city, the mayor. No one cares. I called the state and nothing has been done. I've wrote letters. NOTHING. I agree with banding together in some way to have the laws enforced. These laws need to be enforced and people need to know that there are consequences. These guys don't care because nothing is ever done to them. The fight against the box stores I agree with but I think the focus should be on having a voice to enforce the laws that are already written. Just my 2 cents.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

APP14 said:


> What needs to happen IMO is enforcement on unlicensed plumbers and businesses. If I had a storefront and advertised I was a lawyer immediately the hammer would come down on me. Jail time and fines. But guys operate plumbing businesss everyday and nothing is done. There is a plumbing shop 2 blocks from my house. The guy who owns and runs the place doesn't doesn't have a plumbing contractors license or masters. Hell he doesn't even have a journey man's license. The guys he has work for him are unlicensed. They have been there for 3 years. I have told the city inspector, the city, the mayor. No one cares. I called the state and nothing has been done. I've wrote letters. NOTHING. I agree with banding together in some way to have the laws enforced. These laws need to be enforced and people need to know that there are consequences. These guys don't care because nothing is ever done to them. The fight against the box stores I agree with but I think the focus should be on having a voice to enforce the laws that are already written. Just my 2 cents.


exactly the reason i will not be having anymore residential water heaters inspected,they are gonna have to catch me,and lord knows that will never happen,as i know where ho's have installed heaters themselves and nothing ever happens,hell with giving the state 45.00 if they aint gonna enforce their own crap


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

sparky said:


> exactly the reason i will not be having anymore residential water heaters inspected,they are gonna have to catch me,and lord knows that will never happen,as i know where ho's have installed heaters themselves and nothing ever happens,hell with giving the state 45.00 if they aint gonna enforce their own crap


That's a good way to look at it. If every plumber stopped pulling permits and they started to feel it financial wise then maybe they'd get the hint. They won't enforce anything, stop pulling permits for residential things you can get away with.


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

This is probably a dumb question for you guys, but do you have to pull permits for water heaters because they're gas? Only permits here are for construction. Never worked on gas, so I don't wouldn't know about that


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

sierra2000 said:


> That's a good way to look at it. If every plumber stopped pulling permits and they started to feel it financial wise then maybe they'd get the hint. They won't enforce anything, stop pulling permits for residential things you can get away with.


Some of us go through all the steps. Have workers comp, liability insurance and commercial isurance pretty much what comes with a legit business. When we complaint in this case to the authority that is suppose to help CSLB they don't investigate I'm talking from experience. Now if someone makes a complaint against our lic they get on it right away.

I see a none lic business with a few trucks, expensive equipment etc. All in the last few years. It looks like this outfits do very well. Lots of profit comes from not paying and having the proper insurance that us licensed guys are forced to have as well as maybe paying taxes.

Sometimes I wonder what's the point of being lic? Is it to pay all the fees that we pay? Or is it so that we do plumbing properly? Most often I go with believing the insurance companies putting their hands in our pockets and the local authorities doing the same. Now if making sure plumbing was done right was the reason then going after unlicensed activity would be top priority.

If the authorities don't care why should we? Once again there has to be something that can be done. All the unlicensed activity make it hard for the legit contractor to compete. But it also gives clients a reason not to value the legit contractor and this we need to find a way to fix. I just don't get how the unlicensed can continue to do business and not get caugh. Is it luck or do they know no one will go after them so therefore they simply don't care.

I would love to hear the business model from someone operating with no lic. If we can fight it maybe is time to unite :whistling2:


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## jnaas2 (Dec 6, 2012)

You can call the state all you want they dont care its just plumbing, Now act like a doctor and your in jail. I hold plumbing, electrical, a/c, residential and commercial contractor license and take a guess what work I dont do anymore because of all the unlicensed hacks running around

Plumbing and Residential contracting, Too many hacks and no money in it


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

sierra2000 said:


> That's a good way to look at it. If every plumber stopped pulling permits and they started to feel it financial wise then maybe they'd get the hint. They won't enforce anything, stop pulling permits for residential things you can get away with.


I assume nobody pulls a water heater permit in Atlanta, now that minimum permit fee is $200. I told someone there point blank that the new minimum will cost Atlanta money vs making money. She agreed. I don't permit very many water heaters.

David


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

dhal22 said:


> I assume nobody pulls a water heater permit in Atlanta, now that minimum permit fee is $200. I told someone there point blank that the new minimum will cost Atlanta money vs making money. She agreed. I don't permit very many water heaters.
> 
> David


i refuse to pull a permit for a heater. thats just a city that is greedy and looking to justify having inspectors. they come in and only look for other code violations. it has nothing to do with the heater. thats my 2 pennies


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

I won't boycott Big Box because:

1. I shop at Big Box for my own DIY projects. I need a few pieces of lumber, I'm not going to the lumber yard. I want to buy a few bushes, I'm not going to the nursery. It's a one-stop shop for me.

2. Big Box does carry items that our local suppliers run out of, or don't stock at all.

3. Big Box is open after the supply houses have closed.

4. Big Box sells some items cheaper than our local supply houses. 

However, your idea is not without merit. In my opinion, a better way would be to educate the consumer and attempt to change the way they view Big Box regarding advice / product offerings etc.

I would think a place on the internet with DIY'er horror stories (based on recommendations given by Big Box employees) , reviews of bad/cheap products, cheap fix vs. long-term value articles, and professional plumbers posting pictures of the bad plumbing that has been done by DIY'ers, explaining the dangers without getting into the how tos. 

Here's a domain for you: www.bigboxepicfail.com or diyerepicfail.com


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

"The guy at Home Depot said..." 

Haha, can't tell you how often I hear this. These guys have never worked in the field and rarely know what they're talking about. I guess those that can't do.. Teach.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

plumberkc said:


> "The guy at Home Depot said


That would be a great name for a site. Add pictures, like 'People of Walmart' and you would have a winner!


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> i refuse to pull a permit for a heater. thats just a city that is greedy and looking to justify having inspectors. they come in and only look for other code violations. it has nothing to do with the heater. thats my 2 pennies


Your damn right, and that's the way it should be. Why wouldn't you want to have an inspection on your work? It takes much of the liability off you, also could generate more work for you by an inspector finding violations.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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