# What is that one little thing that really chaps your A$$????



## SC Plumbing Repair (Dec 7, 2020)

We all run into things on a regular basis that just really irritates us to no end. This little thing might make you mad as a hornet but it doesn't even phase the other guy.

The one thing that really sets me off is having to remove closet bolts where the lazy a$$, so called plumber that set the toilet didn't bother to cut the bolts properly but rather broke them off or used bolt cutters. Now you have to spend half an hour just to remove a closet bolt. 

I have told everyone that works for me that if they were caught doing that they would be fired on the spot.

What is that really sets you off?
What is your opinion on bolt cutters to closet bolts?


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## RichardBull (Jan 7, 2021)

I didn’t know there was a way to properly cut closet bolts......but oh well.

I hate it when I call the customer 15 minutes ahead and tell them I will be there in 15 minutes.
When I get there they have to put their dogs away or they need me to move my truck so they can get out. 
Or someone just got in the shower.....


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## RichardBull (Jan 7, 2021)

Then there’s the ole.......” while your here “ after you’ve made the invoice !


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

RichardBull said:


> I didn’t know there was a way to properly cut closet bolts......but oh well..........



The proper way to cut joni bolts is not to cut them at all.


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## RichardBull (Jan 7, 2021)

I cut them with bolt cutters or big linemans pliers.

if I pull a toilet I use new bolts.


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## The cable guy (Oct 31, 2020)

SC Plumbing Repair said:


> We all run into things on a regular basis that just really irritates us to no end. This little thing might make you mad as a hornet but it doesn't even phase the other guy.
> 
> The one thing that really sets me off is having to remove closet bolts where the lazy a$$, so called plumber that set the toilet didn't bother to cut the bolts properly but rather broke them off or used bolt cutters. Now you have to spend half an hour just to remove a closet bolt.
> 
> ...


best way around this is to take a pair of tin snips and cut the washer under the bolt. Much easier than trying to cut the bolt under the nut and as long as they didn’t use 5/16 bolts the toilet bolt holes are bigger than the nut so it will slide right over.

for me its when a sewer cleanout is in a rose bush(really any bush but the painful ones are extra annoying) or when the cleanout is 2” deep and the home owner expects you to find it right away but gives you a 10 square foot area and says its around there somewhere only for the cleanout to be on another side of the house. Then when ypu offer to extend it they dont want the “eyesore.”


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## The cable guy (Oct 31, 2020)

[USER=98215]@RichardBull Holy crap dude just saw your post count. Haven’t been very busy this week have you?


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## RichardBull (Jan 7, 2021)

The cable guy said:


> @richard Bull Holy crap dude just saw your post count. Haven’t been very busy this week have you?


I work 4-5 hrs a day.


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## Sstratton6175 (Jan 10, 2021)

For me it’s when you’re fueling up your work truck and some a-hole pulls in nose to nose because their stupid fuel cap is on the passenger side of their car!!! Only thing that makes it worse is when some other idiot pulls in behind you so you can’t even back out.


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## RichardBull (Jan 7, 2021)

Sstratton6175 said:


> For me it’s when you’re fueling up your work truck and some a-hole pulls in nose to nose because their stupid fuel cap is on the passenger side of their car!!! Only thing that makes it worse is when some other idiot pulls in behind you so you can’t even back out.


That’s when I get loud.....


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

SC Plumbing Repair said:


> We all run into things on a regular basis that just really irritates us to no end. ........


*When the customer says "I didn't know this was going to be a big job!"*, especially when I've already specifically told them it will be quick/easy/small job.

The things that elicit this reaction include but are not limited to;

-Laying down a small drop cloth
-Using the slide hammer handle puller
-Cutting the basket strainer nut off with an angle grinder

Give me time I may think of a few more. The slide hammer one almost always makes them say it and that one pisses me off the most.

*Story time*

Even those of you against repairing faucets can understand why I would rebuild a central utility faucet when the slop sink has had a plywood cabinet built all the way around it. Would have had to spend 30 minutes disassembling the cabinet to change the faucet and then have to reassemble it again.

I happened to be 10 mins down the road so I got to this guys house fast. His toilet needed a new handle. He's the kind of guy who uses hyperbole to emphasize what he feels is an extreme opinion BUT he does it using reverse psychology. He assumes I will tell him he should replace the old toilet but he doesn't want to so he says; The handles been busted for years, we should probably just replace the whole piece of junk with a new toilet.". It's important to note that it's a very clean toilet and the ONLY issue is the handle. Instead of playing into his game and acting alarmed I calmly say I'm not sure, let me see what I have for handles, it is quite old.

The other issue with this guy is he watches the clock and will make the same back-handed comments trying to get me to go fast, which I already do.

I get my stuff together and before I leave I always ask if there's anything else they'd like me to take a look at. He mentions the kitchen faucet sprays funny and the utility faucet doesn't shut off all the way and it leaks from the handle. Again he makes some comment about how they are not a big deal because it would then go past the hour minimum and might turn into "big jobs". I tell him the kitchen faucet just needs an aerator as I am already putting one on and that the utility sink faucet would be best served being repaired instead of replaced because it is a quality cast-brass body and I explain the cabinet issue. He begrudgingly agrees to let me fix the utility faucet even though it will in his mind lead to a 1-1/2hr bill, he calms down and stops rushing me.

With 15mins left and this guy finally having stopped being an a-hole I switch into super high gear and replace both seats, stems, spout oring, aerator, and the handles on the utility faucet. He comes out when I start on the handles with the slide puller and goes *"I didn't know this was going to be a big job!". *Parts neatly laid out on the counter in plain view, I assure him it isn't, just corroded on handles.* 

I kept that job to the hour minimum, he was ecstatic when I handed him the ticket and told him it's just the hour minimum plus the parts.*

What pissed me off the most, is this is like the fourth time I have worked at that house when he was home and I impressed him and he still chose to make the comments. Some people are just so used to being manipulative dicks. I know he actually thinks highly of me because he's gotten his neighbors to switch to us and ask specifically for me.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

RichardBull said:


> That’s when I get loud.....


I just gas up at the shop. Most of the new install guys have gas cards or submit receipts.


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## RichardBull (Jan 7, 2021)

skoronesa said:


> I just gas up at the shop. Most of the new install guys have gas cards or submit receipts.


I haven’t made it to the big time yet. I wish I had a shop with gas pumps. I’d probably retire then for sure ! 🤣✌👍


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

What pisses me off :

1) Those who literally use a stop watch. Or argue the time putting the tools away doesn't count or worse getting tools and parts to and from the van shouldn't count. So my paperwork says you pay for that time!

2) Those who are 10 inches away from you for the entire job and I have to push them out of the way to put my tools down.

3) Those who try to cram more work into an hour without having to pay extra. They ask if it'll go over the minimum 1hr. I say yes it'll go over. They give me the go ahead and hand them the 1.5 hour bill and they are angry for the extra 30 minutes and most time they try not to pay.

4) You tell the new Canayens the T&M rate on the phone 3-4-5-6 times and they sign the paperwork. When you give them the bill, the rate doesn't apply to them, they say to you lied or they don't understand. They argue it's flat rate, they say the job was easy so the amount is not true and they aren't going to pay the entire bill, parts are supposed to be free, service call fee was supposed to be included in the hourly rate. They don't want to pay taxes. Once the job is done they don't pay, they call another company to check the rate and argue they were cheaper and will file a lawsuit for fraud. YES they don't pay and threaten to sue and file complaints! I'm done with that FINITO!

5) Toilet flanges too low, rotted floor and they refuse you to do it right and want you to reinstall it with a guarantee.

6) They try to schedule an appointment in the evening and weekends expecting it will be cheaper than the day/week rate.

7) New Canayens wanting a free estimate for a 1hr job.

8) The majority think you will change out a tub/shower faucet without cutting the wall. 

9) Add 50 more things to this list.

Now I'm angry, I need to go pat my lucky charm now. Should of never read this thread and reply.


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## BRPguy21 (Jan 15, 2021)

RichardBull said:


> Then there’s the ole.......” while your here “ after you’ve made the invoice !


I know what you mean. 

I did a shower valve for a lady and when I was cleaning up and bringing tools out the the truck I walked back in to invoice her and she says just like you said "While your here". So we went to the basement and as we were walking I was thinking to myself was "this better be easy or cheap or just a oh come look at something" but there was a bathroom that hasnt been touch since moby dick was a minow. She was looking for a nice remodel of fixtures. 

And like that.....my mood changed and I got her on the schedule couple days later.


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## The cable guy (Oct 31, 2020)

BRPguy21 said:


> I know what you mean.
> 
> I did a shower valve for a lady and when I was cleaning up and bringing tools out the the truck I walked back in to invoice her and she says just like you said "While your here". So we went to the basement and as we were walking I was thinking to myself was "this better be easy or cheap or just a oh come look at something" but there was a bathroom that hasnt been touch since moby dick was a minow. She was looking for a nice remodel of fixtures.
> 
> And like that.....my mood changed and I got her on the schedule couple days later.


Sounds to me like she liked your work and wanted to give you more money 👍😁 never a bad thing long as they don’t expect it right now


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> What pisses me off :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

When you arrive at a job, and someone has just taken a big stinky dump in the washroom your going to be working in.


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## hewhodigsholes (Oct 28, 2020)

When the customer says something like, "It should only take you a couple of minutes," or "isn't that like a $5 part at Lowe's/Ace/HD?" Usually followed by "why so expensive?!"

Listen, you called us out to do this because you either can't do it yourself due to lack of time/equipment/know-how or you just don't want to. I get the sticker shock, especially from older folks, but don't b**** at me for the price or the time it takes when you clearly don't know what all is involved.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

hewhodigsholes said:


> When the customer says something like, "It should only take you a couple of minutes," or "isn't that like a $5 part at Lowe's/Ace/HD?" Usually followed by "why so expensive?!"
> 
> Listen, you called us out to do this because you either can't do it yourself due to lack of time/equipment/know-how or you just don't want to. I get the sticker shock, especially from older folks, but don't b**** at me for the price or the time it takes when you clearly don't know what all is involved.


That one is on my list too! Sometimes I get " well you get parts cheaper than me". Implying I should charge less than what they can buy it themselves. The parts don't magically appear in the truck, that time is remunerated.

This guy Wednesday said that comment to me to install a laundry tub/pump. That big job is going to be flat rate anyway.


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## hewhodigsholes (Oct 28, 2020)

Tango said:


> That one is on my list too! Sometimes I get " well you get parts cheaper than me". Implying I should charge less than what they can buy it themselves. The parts don't magically appear in the truck, that time is remunerated.
> 
> This guy Wednesday said that comment to me to install a laundry tub/pump. That big job is going to be flat rate anyway.


Or "the last plumber did it for $x.xx," "my friend said he can do it for such-and-such."

Then why didn't you call them?

Also, folks who expect me to install or repair a no-name fixture from Amazon with our full warranty. Repairs done today please.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Here's another that I get once in a while, guy calls to say he saw my ad in the hacker's classifieds, he tried to hook his fridge line and the hose backed off into the fridge or something and it's unreachable. He asks a bunch of questions and an estimate. SEND SOME PICS! He offers me less money than the rate I just told him. Wawa whining, I bought some snakeBait fittings and now I can't do it. 

Geez he called back he got it out but still can't do it himself, he says he can install it himself but I'll do it faster. SAME PRICE NO HAGGLING! PLUS TAXES!


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

hewhodigsholes said:


> Or "the last plumber did it for $x.xx," "my friend said he can do it for such-and-such."
> 
> Then why didn't you call them?
> 
> Also, folks who expect me to install or repair a no-name fixture from Amazon with our full warranty. Repairs done today please.


I'm getting more calls now from people who ordered wayf.a.ir china junk faucets and want me to install them. NO. Yesterday a tenant had ordered a junk roman tub faucet. Sure good luck with that. Now half of costco's stuff isn't approved. Too bad for you I'm not installing flood fixtures.


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## Dontbitenails (Oct 16, 2020)

When you go to replace a kitchen or lavatory faucet and they do not have it cleared out under.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Dontbitenails said:


> When you go to replace a kitchen or lavatory faucet and they do not have it cleared out under.


That I don't mind, it adds 15 minutes to the clock, very profitable.


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## The cable guy (Oct 31, 2020)

Dontbitenails said:


> When you go to replace a kitchen or lavatory faucet and they do not have it cleared out under.


We’re flat rate so I understand where you’re coming from i dont mind moving a few things but when its piled to the bottom of the sink i get a tad annoyed. One lady wanted me to put everything back exactly in the order that she had it in. She had schit stacked up to the bottom of the sink and like 6 of everything then i asked her how she had everything in there to begin with and she got mad and said she’d just do it herself. Whole time she was going on and on about how the last guy cleaned her line from the roof. There was 4” of snow on the ground. I should have just walked away from the get go...


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## SC Plumbing Repair (Dec 7, 2020)

Tango said:


> That I don't mind, it adds 15 minutes to the clock, very profitable.


Only if you are charging T&M, if it is flat rate you are losing money.


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## SC Plumbing Repair (Dec 7, 2020)

skoronesa said:


> The proper way to cut joni bolts is not to cut them at all.
> 
> View attachment 127091


I have not seen that before, how does it work? Where do you get them?


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## SC Plumbing Repair (Dec 7, 2020)

RichardBull said:


> I cut them with bolt cutters or big linemans pliers.
> 
> if I pull a toilet I use new bolts.


The next time that you cut them with bolt cutters try to remove the nut, when you can't then you will realize there is a correct way to cut closet bolts.


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## SC Plumbing Repair (Dec 7, 2020)

Tango said:


> What pisses me off :
> 
> 1) Those who literally use a stop watch. Or argue the time putting the tools away doesn't count or worse getting tools and parts to and from the van shouldn't count. So my paperwork says you pay for that time!
> 
> ...





Tango said:


> 7) New Canayens wanting a free estimate for a 1hr job.


I am almost scared to ask; What is a "New Canayens"?


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## The cable guy (Oct 31, 2020)

SC Plumbing Repair said:


> I have not seen that before, how does it work? Where do you get them?


Those started being sold at one of the local supply houses in Wichita about a year ago. Never tried them. I like the tall china caps that screw on to the plastic washer


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Tango said:


> Here's another that I get once in a while, guy calls to say he saw my ad in the hacker's classifieds, he tried to hook his fridge line and the hose backed off into the fridge or something and it's unreachable. He asks a bunch of questions and an estimate. SEND SOME PICS! He offers me less money than the rate I just told him. Wawa whining, I bought some snakeBait fittings and now I can't do it. !
> 
> Geez he called back he got it out but still can't do it himself, he says he can install it himself but I'll do it faster. SAME PRICE NO HAGGLING! PLUS TAXES!



Anyway I just got back, he was complaining a bit but he zipped up when he saw my stature and I didn't care about his biatchn. Guess what not one but 2 Porches in the driveway! Still got my paycheck pronto. Hey they are not the only ones allowed to make money.


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## RichardBull (Jan 7, 2021)

I cut the bolts with bolt cutters and have no problem removing the nuts. I use wolverine brass closet bolts with the flat square brass nut that secured the bolt to the flange. 

The heavy chrome plated brass nut will straighten any deformed thread caused by the bolt cutters when removed.

it’s amazing.....


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## smoldrn (Oct 4, 2010)

I like the one's who say "all you have to do to fix it is...". I tell them my number is M****, what's yours?
'What's my what'?
Your master plumber license number.
'Oh, I don't have one.
Well when you do, I'll be more than happy to discuss plumbing theory with you, but isn't the reason you called me is that I'm supposed to be the professional? Works every time...


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

smoldrn said:


> I like the one's who say "all you have to do to fix it is...". I tell them my number is M****, what's yours?
> 'What's my what'?
> Your master plumber license number.
> 'Oh, I don't have one.
> Well when you do, I'll be more than happy to discuss plumbing theory with you, but isn't the reason you called me is that I'm supposed to be the professional? Works every time...


*I find most people have their story to tell and once you listen to it they feel better *and then you can tell them whatever. If they're wrong don't even try to bring up their theory, just tell them whats up. They have gone over what they're going to tell you a dozen times before they call you or you show up at their house.

I can't tell you how many times I have had people walk me around their house showing me each fixture in the order they stopped working and how exactly they sounded and who was brushing their teeth and taking a dump......etc, etc, etc. It's annoying when I am amped up or trying to get the job done quicklyer than normal.

*If you interrupt them their brain has a little aneurysm.* I just wait until they're finished and then I ask about the septic tank and then ask to see the basement. Many go OH, you don't think it's just the sink, toilet, tub, shower?, yada yada yada. They all say they had the tank pumped recently but they can't remember when exactly or where the tank is which means it's been close to a decade since they pumped it last.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

*The one thing that probably bothers me more than anything else is when they tell me how to drive.* This usually takes the form of telling me how to turn around on their lawn so I can pull out nose first instead of backing into traffic. I have one customer where I do the k-turn when I pull into their driveway because of how many times they have *insisted I drive into their back lot and turn around and there's never enough room.*

It really bothered them the last couple times I was there because I politely declined and said I could back out just fine. *The last time I agreed to pull around in their back lot and then I didn't

Their brains stopped for a couple minutes the first time I backed in when I arrived. *They didn't notice until I went to leave and they start with their usual "You can pull around outback, don't worry about the lawn, there's plenty of room go ahead, the road traffic can be so dangerous.....". I just said 'I'm already pointed nose out". Oh, you pulled around outback when you arrived? No I backed in. Their mouths dropped and I said I'll see you later all cheerily


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## JimmyMac (Nov 4, 2015)

smoldrn said:


> I like the one's who say "all you have to do to fix it is...". I tell them my number is M****, what's yours?
> 'What's my what'?
> Your master plumber license number.
> 'Oh, I don't have one.
> Well when you do, I'll be more than happy to discuss plumbing theory with you, but isn't the reason you called me is that I'm supposed to be the professional? Works every time...


That is fantastic! So going to use that one!


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Retention.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Plumbus said:


> Retention.


repeat customers that recommend you are the most valuable customers..and it sometimes takes a little give and take to fluff them over to get that warm fuzzy feeling that will make them keep coming back...so you knock a few bucks off..what do you spend on advertising??? just figure this as part of the investment...anything that makes your company grow cant be looked at as an expense, but an investment in future profits..


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Cheap azz single ply rough azz port-a-potty toilet paper


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## Sstratton6175 (Jan 10, 2021)

Dontbitenails said:


> When you go to replace a kitchen or lavatory faucet and they do not have it cleared out under.


I typically leave their stuff in a pile on the floor and say “I’ll leave this stuff here... you should probably go through this and organize it before you shove it all back in there”


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

chonkie said:


> Cheap azz single ply rough azz port-a-potty toilet paper


I always keep a pack of TP in the van. Almost always....

Of course a couple months ago I went to take a water sample at a house for sale. The damn real estate agent took the toilet paper from all 9 bathrooms AND the linen closets. I had just given my pack of TP to a customer dealing with a spouse with dementia. They were flushing lots of the triple ply and clogging the toilet.

The one day I didn't have any in the van! I had to use take-out napkins and bag them because I wasn't going to clog the toilet/pipes.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> I always keep a pack of TP in the van. Almost always....
> 
> Of course a couple months ago I went to take a water sample at a house for sale. The damn real estate agent took the toilet paper from all 9 bathrooms AND the linen closets. I had just given my pack of TP to a customer dealing with a spouse with dementia. They were flushing lots of the triple ply and clogging the toilet.
> 
> The one day I didn't have any in the van! I had to use take-out napkins and bag them because I wasn't going to clog the toilet/pipes.


you coulda used your hand, just wipe it off in the grass...helps build your immune system....


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

skoronesa said:


> I always keep a pack of TP in the van. Almost always....
> 
> Of course a couple months ago I went to take a water sample at a house for sale. The damn real estate agent took the toilet paper from all 9 bathrooms AND the linen closets. I had just given my pack of TP to a customer dealing with a spouse with dementia. They were flushing lots of the triple ply and clogging the toilet.
> 
> The one day I didn't have any in the van! I had to use take-out napkins and bag them because I wasn't going to clog the toilet/pipes.


Socks and underwear!


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

SC Plumbing Repair said:


> The next time that you cut them with bolt cutters try to remove the nut, when you can't then you will realize there is a correct way to cut closet bolts.


I never had much success removing nuts this way either. But I did learn a good tip from this site awhile back. Use a metal sawsall blade to hold the bolt under the washer and remove nut with an impact drill. I know- still too much work but it can get you out of a jamb.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

89plumbum said:


> I never had much success removing nuts this way either. But I did learn a good tip from this site awhile back. Use a metal sawsall blade to hold the bolt under the washer and remove nut with an impact drill. I know- still too much work but it can get you out of a jamb.


Tilting the toilet to the side will usually keep the head of the joni bolt up in the channel of the bolt flange.


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## SC Plumbing Repair (Dec 7, 2020)

89plumbum said:


> I never had much success removing nuts this way either. But I did learn a good tip from this site awhile back. Use a metal sawsall blade to hold the bolt under the washer and remove nut with an impact drill. I know- still too much work but it can get you out of a jamb.





skoronesa said:


> Tilting the toilet to the side will usually keep the head of the joni bolt up in the channel of the bolt flange.


 I agree with both of those tricks but if the lazy a$$, "so-called" plumber would have cut them properly then that wouldn't be neccesary. It takes 5 seconds to cut a closet bolt with a mini hacksaw, even less if you have a Dremel.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

89plumbum said:


> I never had much success removing nuts this way either. But I did learn a good tip from this site awhile back. Use a metal sawsall blade to hold the bolt under the washer and remove nut with an impact drill. I know- still too much work but it can get you out of a jamb.


I use a little cheese saw to cut the new johnny bolts and if they are a bugger to get the old ones off, a one handed sawsall and hold the nut with channel locks to prevent from spinning and a few seconds later your cut through...


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

I love, love, love when they tell me right in the middle of a job that they have somewhere to go, and they don't want me in their house alone. Usually an hour into a 3 hour job, that they couldn't conceive could possibly take that long. I've started asking when I get there if they have any time constraints, but the one time I forget is when it still happens.
Also love the "can you move your van". Just love it.
"Oh, he won't bite", as the dog is trying to break down a door to get to me....and then someone else in the house lets him out while I am there.
It's pouring rain and they take their sweet time answering the door.
Walk ways or bulkhead access around back that are not cleared of deep snow that they expect me to walk through. Icy walks that are not sanded. I have started keeping a bag of salt on the truck, and charging for it, as well as application time. The few times they dare have the nerve to beatch about the charge, I've gotten real stern that MY safety is paramount, and if they won't ensure it after asking me to come onto their property I will take it into my own hands.
ME having to put down what I'm carrying in or out every time to shut a door so their cat won't get out. Put the damn thing in another room. Filthy litter boxes right next to the toilet I'm working on.
I used to be understanding of people who want to sit right there and watch the whole time, because usually they're just curious, but more and more it annoys me. Clutter under the sink used to bother me too, but now I just make a joke that I'm on their dime, so if they want to spend it having me clean it out, no problem. It's funny as hell seeing sometimes how fast they will jump up and do it while I'm brining in tools, or tell me to leave it all and they will put it back.
You show up to a house and the other spouse has called, but the one there has no clue which bathroom has the problem, or what in the basement is leaking, and they can't get the other one on the phone.
Probably my absolute favorite is when I pull into the driveway and they are out there immediately walking right up to the truck and expect me to jump out. No, I have to sign in on site on my tablet, return a call to the office, return a text, take a drink, whatever. Back off and give me a minute and some space to get my head together.
Our fellow plumbers can cause annoyance too. I hate it when I'm with another guy on a job and he won't clean up, or worse discourages me from doing it. Several times I've gotten pushback for cleaning up "too much", or "that is enough". Not on a job I'm on. My philosophy is to leave it cleaner than I found it. How have they not learned that the one thing that pisses a customer off most is not cleaning up, and the one thing they love the most is when you do?


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## SC Plumbing Repair (Dec 7, 2020)

goeswiththeflow said:


> I love, love, love when they tell me right in the middle of a job that they have somewhere to go, and they don't want me in their house alone. Usually an hour into a 3 hour job, that they couldn't conceive could possibly take that long. I've started asking when I get there if they have any time constraints, but the one time I forget is when it still happens.
> Also love the "can you move your van". Just love it.
> "Oh, he won't bite", as the dog is trying to break down a door to get to me....and then someone else in the house lets him out while I am there.
> It's pouring rain and they take their sweet time answering the door.
> ...


So I take it that the *one *thing "that really chaps your a$$" is your *JOB. *


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

SC Plumbing Repair said:


> So I take it that the *one *thing "that really chaps your a$$" is your *JOB. *


Don't know how you inferred that from what I posted, but heck, my wife comes up with all sorts of outlandish assumptions that have nothing to do with what I actually said too, so Iiving with a woman gets one used to that kind of stuff.


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## SC Plumbing Repair (Dec 7, 2020)

goeswiththeflow said:


> Don't know how you inferred that from what I posted, but heck, my wife comes up with all sorts of outlandish assumptions that have nothing to do with what I actually said too, so Iiving with a woman gets one used to that kind of stuff.


Everything that you listed is a description of the daily life of a plumber therefore your Job; It was intended as a joke not to hurt your feelings.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Tango said:


> What pisses me off :
> 
> 1) Those who literally use a stop watch. Or argue the time putting the tools away doesn't count or worse getting tools and parts to and from the van shouldn't count. So my paperwork says you pay for that time!
> 
> ...






That is one more reason monsieur, to go to flat-rate, n'est-ce pas?


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

I worked for places that have done both. Each has it's pros and cons. I've gotten pretty good at setting the clock watchers straight. Pretty much everything that I do while I'm on the property is chargeable time because it costs money to get me and my truck there. We are a business, and are not in business to not charge for things that cost us money. Even putting my tools away. I would not be there if not for your request. I am getting paid to put my tools away, and that has to be passed on. They were required to do the job that you requested me for. Just like you Madam Customer at your job when you get paid for every minute you are there except walking into the building and back out to your car. I don't know for sure how they put it to customers on the phone at my current job when they explain our pricing guidelines, but whatever they say, I get very few arguments here about that, knock on wood.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Tommy plumber said:


> That is one more reason monsieur, to go to flat-rate, n'est-ce pas?


Change my mind, I'd like to know what you would handle these situations. Here's a few examples it doesn't work here, I tell them the rate in T&M for a clogged drain and they say come over and just before I hang up they ask me how much total for an 1hr? I give them the total and cancel the job.

*Flat rate is 1 price and you can't change it by law*. How do you Flat rate hack work if you haven't seen what's under the leaking toilet? Flange too low, rotted floor(have to go back 2 or 3 times free?), how about a broken flange and to do it right you have to open walls and ceilings, repipe 1st floor and basement stack for free?. The other week, it needed a 10" rough toilet instead of a 12" because the hack roughed it wrong, or how about last week they cut out the lead flange, there was no lead! Then the valve starts to leak (now it's free?), You shut the main but doesn't close 100%(now it's free?), the fill valve breaks( it's now free?), the tank bolts start to leak(now it's free?). Might as well Flat rate 1500$-2000$ for a leaking toilet since usually it's hacked but they will kick you out and say it's too expensive. Or charge 1500$ and it just needed a wax seal and you are done in 30 minutes, they might not pay you and file a complaint you robbed them.

Yesterday a pipe was frozen, I thought it might be only one split, it ended up 10 splits on both pipes when I was done, would of lost the equivalent of 3 regular rate jobs.


Here read this story. Flat rate for a shower drain? The main stack was broken, I would of lost several hundreds and I mean several hundreds :









The Adventures of the Soap Opera


Nothing good happens when we go outside out lane. I'm trying hard not to get sucked into replacing a toilet paper holder for a customer. Theirs fall out of the wall and his story goes from the wall being plastic, tile or drywall. I gave him the name of two carpenters and I sure hope one of...




www.plumbingzone.com


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

goeswiththeflow said:


> I love, love, love when they tell me right in the middle of a job that they have somewhere to go, and they don't want me in their house alone. Usually an hour into a 3 hour job, that they couldn't conceive could possibly take that long. I've started asking when I get there if they have any time constraints, but the one time I forget is when it still happens.



I had a few say they needed to go somewhere, told them I might be done before they arrive. Both times they paid me sitting in the truck. _Good luck with those who flat rate!_






> Walk ways or bulkhead access around back that are not cleared of deep snow that they expect me to walk through. Icy walks that are not sanded. I have started keeping a bag of salt on the truck, and charging for it, as well as application time. The few times they dare have the nerve to beatch about the charge, I've gotten real stern that MY safety is paramount, and if they won't ensure it after asking me to come onto their property I will take it into my own hands.


Very good idea, I'll start carrying salt! Some places are dangerous and waiting for me to slip and break bones. Did you know if you hurt yourself they are 100% responsible? Here you have to have a path for the mail main and not be slippery. When they don't shovel, if I find one I will make a path to my truck, clock is rolling and I'm getting paid. _Good luck with those who flat rate!_






> Probably my absolute favorite is when I pull into the driveway and they are out there immediately walking right up to the truck and expect me to jump out. No, I have to sign in on site on my tablet, return a call to the office, return a text, take a drink, whatever. Back off and give me a minute and some space to get my head together.


I tell them I'll be with them in 5 minutes.


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

With experience I started working those annoyances into the rate that I quoted. It's not an exact science, but sometimes I made out when their blatent disregard for me made me add the a$$hole fee. A few times when they balked I even mentioned that the quote included me shoveling a path through the snow or cleaning out the clutter to get where I needed to work. Sometimes they just agreed to it and understood the extra work, sometimes they get the damn shovel out or start moving schitt right away.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

If I see stuff under a kitchen sink that I was called for to fix I tell them to clear it while I gather my tools and fittings. Most times they don't even know you need room to work and stuff out of the way. It doesn't bother me, last week a guy said sorry I forgot to take the stuff out, as I'm taking stuff out I said no worries. He replied I know why you don't mind you are getting well paid, I said yeah, I'll clean your dishes, vacuum the place, mow the lawn and I can stay here all day!. We had a good laugh.


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## Nazareth (Sep 30, 2017)

That one damned self tapping screw you just can't get to go in on a water heater


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Nazareth said:


> That one damned self tapping screw you just can't get to go in on a water heater


Seriously, WyTF do we need security screws on a phucking water heater!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> If I see stuff under a kitchen sink that I was called for to fix I tell them to clear it while I gather my tools and fittings. Most times they don't even know you need room to work and stuff out of the way. It doesn't bother me, last week a guy said sorry I forgot to take the stuff out, as I'm taking stuff out I said no worries. He replied I know why you don't mind you are getting well paid, I said yeah, I'll clean your dishes, vacuum the place, mow the lawn and I can stay here all day!. We had a good laugh.



Exactly, I tell them for 95$/hr there pretty much ain't nothing I won't do! lolz


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> Seriously, WyTF do we need security screws on a phucking water heater!!!!!!!!!!!!


We don't have that but there's a special screws on many dishwasher. That's annoying.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

When friggin @Razzy7 puts crap in the middle of the walking path. It takes me a while to notice I’ve been stepping over it or dodging it all day and then I’m like what the F is this in the way for. Put this sh!t somewhere else.


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## Nazareth (Sep 30, 2017)

When @Razzy7 doesn't post anything


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Nazareth said:


> When @Razzy7 doesn't post anything


He’s a pu$$y. He says I know everything so he doesn’t need to ask questions here he’ll just ask me. I tell him my brain is clogged with plumbing, heating, and air so I probably only know 70% of each trade and the guys on PZ are plumbing only so they know about 95%+ of plumbing.


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## Nazareth (Sep 30, 2017)

Tell him tomorrow to put his shoulders up

Be a man


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

Super Cold weather:
Frozen rags, 
Hard/stiff flux,
Frosty cold tools that stick to wet fingers,
And 
silicone that needs to be soaked in hot water..


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Logtec said:


> Super Cold weather:
> Frozen rags,
> Hard/stiff flux,
> Frosty cold tools that stick to wet fingers,
> ...


-Door seals that stick and tear, gotta grease'em!
-Having to bring the mini-jetter inside
-Hoses that don't run until you beat them
-Batteries that last a quarter the time
-The bearings on my band saw won't move
-Snake cable director won't rotate
-Siphon hose cracks
-Toilet sucker won't budge. Definitely a nice thing about the copper one is I can stick it in the toilet and it thaws immediately, pvc sucker took a minute.

And last but certainly not least, 

*My neighbor's barn heater must have kicked on because it smelled so bad I checked my own septic system.*
I finally get some energy to organize the van.... The urea stank was so putrid I was gretting chest pains and had to come in. Luckily I got most of it done.


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## Dontbitenails (Oct 16, 2020)

When I worked for Rotten Rooter back in the day we would have to clean out the urinal drains on a regular basis. Customers would come in to use facilities and every one of them would say " Man you got a crappy job " . That used to really piss me off . I am so retarded that I didn't realize this job sucks as I am scraping out calcified piss. So glad they could come in and remind me. Hooters was always the worst, lots of pissing going on there.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Dontbitenails said:


> When I worked for Rotten Rooter back in the day we would have to clean out the urinal drains on a regular basis. Customers would come in to use facilities and every one of them would say " Man you got a crappy job " . That used to really piss me off . I am so retarded that I didn't realize this job sucks as I am scraping out calcified piss. So glad they could come in and remind me. Hooters was always the worst, lots of pissing going on there.


Funny thing is you’re probably making way more money than them and they’re stuck at a boring ass desk job. Yes, cleaning urinals sucks but you take the good with the bad.


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## Nazareth (Sep 30, 2017)

"I'd do it myself, but.." [insert BS that goes in one ear and out the other]


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

Nazareth said:


> "I'd do it myself, but.." [insert BS that goes in one ear and out the other]


When someone else they know is a plumber, and they say he would do it for half of what I quoted.
Really, how do you know what he charges, and how do you know what he'd charge for THIS job since
he hasn't even seen it? For that matter, then wtf isn't HE here doing it for you?
Because he's the smart one, and he knows how you are, that's why.


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

What about friends or aquaintences from out of the area who try to get you to agree that they got screwed by another plumber just because they paid a lot of money, or it was a quick fix but they got charged for a full hour, or they didn't like the price but he had the nerve to charge them a service fee when "he didn't even DO anything".
They don't want to hear that sometimes the costs involved are actually legitimate, and not every plumber out there screws people, really. Even when you say that you weren't there so you couldn't see what he did or needed to do, so you can't really say if you got screwed or not.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Dontbitenails said:


> " Man you got a crappy job " . That used to really piss me off .





Debo22 said:


> Funny thing is you’re probably making way more money than them and they’re stuck at a boring ass desk job. Yes, cleaning urinals sucks but you take the good with the bad.



Friday... got a clogged toilet call, took exactly 1 minute 32 seconds. The guy had already tried to auger it with a 17$ snake... then he said he should of been a plumber(Because of the high price). Yep I can handle that kind of comment nowadays.

I get comments like these with worse ones too and moaning on a weekly basis but that's all right I raised my prices so my sanity stays afloat.


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

I hate all the butt crack jokes. I once gave an obvious left wing couple a dose of their own medicine by playing the victim and told them that most plumbers are highly offended at that reference. They twisted themselves in knots to think that, horror, they themselves were guilty of implicit bias. I should have said, yeah, everyone speaks up for minorities, transgenders and muslims, but no one cares about us poor plumbers. We have feelings too!


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Debo22 said:


> Funny thing is you’re probably making way more money than them and they’re stuck at a boring ass desk job. Yes, cleaning urinals sucks but you take the good with the bad.


I just laugh a good hearty laugh and tell them I get an extra 50$/hr for doing drain snaking. Because who would do this job for only 45$/hr? The look on their face is priceless because A, they knew plumbers made good money but 45$/hr is way better than what they make, and B, an extra 50$/hr is insane! But they believe it given what I am doing.

I usually follow it up with some reference to being glad I dropped out of highschool instead of going to college, that really burns the ones in suits.

People piss you off? Don't insult them, just use some jedi mind trick to make them think they're the azzhole!


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## Nazareth (Sep 30, 2017)

Personally, I love it when doctors complain about pricing in their medical offices. I'll just throw it right back in their face.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

I hate cold flux that will not stick to the pipe and have to take a torch and heat flux up sp it sticks to copper pipe


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## Nazareth (Sep 30, 2017)

sparky said:


> I hate cold flux that will not stick to the pipe and have to take a torch and heat flux up sp it sticks to copper pipe


Strange, I never have any issues


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

sparky said:


> I hate cold flux that will not stick to the pipe and have to take a torch and heat flux up sp it sticks to copper pipe


Just blast it with your torch for a moment.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

SC Plumbing Repair said:


> I agree with both of those tricks but if the lazy a$$, "so-called" plumber would have cut them properly then that wouldn't be neccesary. It takes 5 seconds to cut a closet bolt with a mini hacksaw, even less if you have a Dremel.


I always use a bolt cutter hell with a hacksaw


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## hewhodigsholes (Oct 28, 2020)

Here's another one: hard piped traps under lavatories with no cleanouts.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

hewhodigsholes said:


> Here's another one: hard piped traps under lavatories with no cleanouts.


That only bothers me if the trap arm has so many couplings I can't cut it and use a no-hub or fernco.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> That only bothers me if the trap arm has so many couplings I can't cut it and use a no-hub or fernco.


If the pipe is 1 1/2" you can use a 2" shielded no hub clamps on the couplings.


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## Nazareth (Sep 30, 2017)

Tango said:


> If the pipe is 1 1/2" you can use a 2" shielded no hub clamps on the couplings.


They actually make ferncos that go over the hub, and on to the pipe. They're called socket fittings. I know Barnett had em for a while


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Nazareth said:


> They actually make ferncos that go over the hub, and on to the pipe. They're called socket fittings. I know Barnett had em for a while


Never seen those. I'll ask next time at the supplier but I highly doubt I can have them.


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## The cable guy (Oct 31, 2020)

Nazareth said:


> They actually make ferncos that go over the hub, and on to the pipe. They're called socket fittings. I know Barnett had em for a while


That’s awesome


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## Nazareth (Sep 30, 2017)

Here you guys go





__





Plastic Socket Couplings | Fernco - US







www.fernco.com


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> If the pipe is 1 1/2" you can use a 2" shielded no hub clamps on the couplings.





Nazareth said:


> They actually make ferncos that go over the hub, and on to the pipe. They're called socket fittings. I know Barnett had em for a while


TANGO!!! I'm turning you into the counsel!!!! Lolz jk

That ain't legal here. Not saying I haven't hooked to a hub before, but I try to avoid it. And yeah, our supply house does sell ferncos sized for hubs. I don't stock them on the van though as I can almost always find a way.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> TANGO!!! I'm turning you into the counsel!!!! Lolz jk
> 
> That ain't legal here. Not saying I haven't hooked to a hub before, but I try to avoid it. And yeah, our supply house does sell ferncos sized for hubs. I don't stock them on the van though as I can almost always find a way.


Surely not legal anywhere but sometimes there's no other way. I'm not about to cut the back of a kitchen cabinet that's 5/8" thick with hot and cold in the way plus a layer of drywall plus vapor barrier and 4" of insulation and somehow put it all back together nicely.

No No No!


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> That only bothers me if the trap arm has so many couplings I can't cut it and use a no-hub or fernco.


I always use a11/2" st tee to add my c.o.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

When you’re driving on the freeway and hit a bump and from the back of the van you hear one of your cordless drills start spinning. Being on the freeway with no place to pull over you just let it keep spinning. You start getting that feeling of relief as the battery is dying and it start spinning slower but it usually takes another 10 minutes to finally die.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Debo22 said:


> When you’re driving on the freeway and hit a bump and from the back of the van you hear one of your cordless drills start spinning. Being on the freeway with no place to pull over you just let it keep spinning. You start getting that feeling of relief as the battery is dying and it start spinning slower but it usually takes another 10 minutes to finally die.


Lolz, yup!! At this point I set the selector to the middle to lock it. If that happens though you can usually slam the brakes and get it to stop  Just don't cause a pile up!!


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## Sstratton6175 (Jan 10, 2021)

Debo22 said:


> When you’re driving on the freeway and hit a bump and from the back of the van you hear one of your cordless drills start spinning. Being on the freeway with no place to pull over you just let it keep spinning. You start getting that feeling of relief as the battery is dying and it start spinning slower but it usually takes another 10 minutes to finally die.


Similar thing happened to me except I was STUPID!!!! enough to put a mapp gas torch screwed together with the trigger unlocked back into the van. Fortunately it was in a bucket full of black malleable fittings and didn’t start my service van on fire while I was driving on the highway.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> Lolz, yup!! At this point I set the selector to the middle to lock it. If that happens though you can usually slam the brakes and get it to stop  Just don't cause a pile up!!


Sometimes you can swerve hard right and then left to dislodge the trigger lolololololo


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## hewhodigsholes (Oct 28, 2020)

Debo22 said:


> When you’re driving on the freeway and hit a bump and from the back of the van you hear one of your cordless drills start spinning. Being on the freeway with no place to pull over you just let it keep spinning. You start getting that feeling of relief as the battery is dying and it start spinning slower but it usually takes another 10 minutes to finally die.


Better a drill than a recip saw or a grinder! 



skoronesa said:


> Lolz, yup!! At this point I set the selector to the middle to lock it.


I do this as well. It annoys the heck out of anyone I ride with. 😏


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Stepping on dog schit, INSIDE SOMEONE'S HOUSE!!!

Seriously, wtf? I ain't talking about a one time accident, some people are just too lazy to let the dog out. When that happens, I couldn't care less about tracking it through their home.


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

I keep a can of pepper spray in my bag. One day things shifted just the right way and I started coughing and gagging and my eyes watering. Took me a second to figure it out. Luckily I was able to pull into a parking lot while I could still see.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

when I worked for a company, we were in a high end house renovating some bathrooms, and had to take a dump, so I asked the home owner what bathroom I could use and they said there was a gas station down the road....she didnt like my response..I told her im ok to install your new bathroom but not good enough to schit in one??? she got all pissy so I took an hour or so driving the work truck to schit..I should have schit in a box and left it in the basement..Ive done that before....
now if it was my own business, I would have ripped her a new azzhole...


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## SC Plumbing Repair (Dec 7, 2020)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> when I worked for a company, we were in a high end house renovating some bathrooms, and had to take a dump, so I asked the home owner what bathroom I could use and they said there was a gas station down the road....she didnt like my response..I told her im ok to install your new bathroom but not good enough to schit in one??? she got all pissy so I took an hour or so driving the work truck to schit..I should have schit in a box and left it in the basement..Ive done that before....
> now if it was my own business, I would have ripped her a new azzhole...


Well that was your mistake,,,
It is far easier asking forgiveness than asking permission!


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

SC Plumbing Repair said:


> Well that was your mistake,,,
> It is far easier asking forgiveness than asking permission!


in hindsight, your right..I would have left some nasty skid marks and the wall paper would have started peeling off after dumping out...


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

I got to a job today to replace some Grohe shower stems, I pulled off both hot and cold trims to replace them and looked at my “new” stems. Damn, one looks used. Sure enough some dip$hit must’ve returned a used stem to save himself a couple bucks and the counter guy didn’t catch it. I’m also kicking myself because I usually check before I leave the supply house. 
Are people that hard up they need to get over on the supply house for a $14 stem?

On a side note, @bawalter are these your stems that you manufacture? The one that was new seemed good quality.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Debo22 said:


> I got to a job today to replace some Grohe shower stems, I pulled off both hot and cold trims to replace them and looked at my “new” stems. Damn, one looks used. Sure enough some dip$hit must’ve returned a used stem to save himself a couple bucks and the counter guy didn’t catch it. I’m also kicking myself because I usually check before I leave the supply house.
> Are people that hard up they need to get over on the supply house for a $14 stem?
> 
> On a side note, @bawalter are these your stems that you manufacture? The one that was new seemed good quality.


I've had a few customers who were caught in this situation, kitchen faucet where the cartridge was replaced with an old one. Another time a toilet was missing parts and a broken top.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Debo22 said:


> I got to a job today to replace some Grohe shower stems,............


Those are Barry Walter stems.

You can probably get ceramic replacements for those. I always suggest to customers that they do it soon because the "seats" usually aren't replaceable. Even if they're removable the brand usually won't sell you replacements. They're not the same as the small replaceable faucet seats we're used to.

The "seats" in these are the same surface the ceramic stems seal against and once they're scored from use with compression stems you can't always get the ceramic stems to seal on them.

_UPDATE_

I looked through the catalog and there is a replaceable seat available. I don't know if that's applicable for all of their shower valves though. I have seen two handle kitchen faucets with compression stems just like those but with shorter top portions, I usually replace those with ceramic stems and I have yet to see replaceable seats on one. Having never seen a two handle grohe shower with compression stems I'm not sure if they are the same.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

skoronesa said:


> Those are Barry Walter stems.
> 
> You can probably get ceramic replacements for those. I always suggest to customers that they do it soon because the "seats" usually aren't replaceable. Even if they're removable the brand usually won't sell you replacements. They're not the same as the small replaceable faucet seats we're used to.
> 
> The "seats" in these are the same surface the ceramic stems seal against and once they're scored from use with compression stems you can't always get the ceramic stems to seal on them.


My distributor sales guy was saying he doesn’t stock the seats because they’re pretty beefy and rarely go bad. I felt them with my finger and they felt smooth.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Debo22 said:


> My distributor sales guy was saying he doesn’t stock the seats because they’re pretty beefy and rarely go bad. I felt them with my finger and they felt smooth.


"Beefy" isn't the same as corrosion/errosion resistant. Although I would be inclined to agree they would be durable as most modern seats as far as I know seem to be a high silicon content bronze which is a much harder material than brass.

I have a handful of monel seats I save for special faucets I would like to see last much longer. I don't order them because they are 5$ a piece instead of 0.30$. I just end up with them from picking through the old parts on our shelves or with other stuff I buy from ebay.


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## BowmanPlumbing (Aug 6, 2016)

SC Plumbing Repair said:


> We all run into things on a regular basis that just really irritates us to no end. This little thing might make you mad as a hornet but it doesn't even phase the other guy.
> 
> The one thing that really sets me off is having to remove closet bolts where the lazy a$$, so called plumber that set the toilet didn't bother to cut the bolts properly but rather broke them off or used bolt cutters. Now you have to spend half an hour just to remove a closet bolt.
> 
> ...


I don’t care which method they use to cut off closet bolts, as long as they use a nut washer at the flange as well. As long as the closet bolt is secured to the flange, the top nut will come off without trouble, and also recut the threads where the cut was made.


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## bawalter (Dec 23, 2020)

Debo22 said:


> On a side note, @bawalter are these your stems that you manufacture? The one that was new seemed good quality.


Yes they are. Thank you for the kind words. Quality is something we pride ourselves on.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

BowmanPlumbing said:


> I don’t care which method they use to cut off closet bolts, as long as they use a nut washer at the flange as well. As long as the closet bolt is secured to the flange, the top nut will come off without trouble, and also recut the threads where the cut was made.


Try set-fast joni bolts, I use them all the time and haven't cut a joni bolt on a toilet in years. They have a T nut that won't spin in the flange and the threaded portion is removable/adjustable.

I think most of the time nutting down regular joni bolts is unnecessary but I have done it on occasion, mostly when the concrete/wood is missing directly below the joni bolt head and it's wants to fall down. It's why I save some of the extra 5/16" thin brass nuts that come with the 3 bolt tank/bowl seal kits. If you need a longer joni bolt you can shave two sides of the head of a tank bolt btw. Or cut the head off and use the threaded portion with a set fast bolt.


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## Dpeckplb (Sep 20, 2013)

Mine is when you have two service calls on the way to a bigger job. Then you have to unload the van twice....gosh I need a kuv


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

This one tops the cake, taxes! I pay so much income tax I truly understand now what they meant by cash flow and why some businesses seem to be profitable and overnight bam out of business. Pisses me off that I have to pay the government taxes even before you make that money. Same amount as a used entry level Ferrari!

Better not get injured or sued because they want their cut anyway and right the phock now.


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> Try set-fast joni bolts, I use them all the time and haven't cut a joni bolt on a toilet in years. They have a T nut that won't spin in the flange and the threaded portion is removable/adjustable.
> 
> I think most of the time nutting down regular joni bolts is unnecessary but I have done it on occasion, mostly when the concrete/wood is missing directly below the joni bolt head and it's wants to fall down. It's why I save some of the extra 5/16" thin brass nuts that come with the 3 bolt tank/bowl seal kits. If you need a longer joni bolt you can shave two sides of the head of a tank bolt btw. Or cut the head off and use the threaded portion with a set fast bolt.
> 
> ...


These closet bolts don’t seem to be available in Canada..


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Logtec said:


> These closet bolts don’t seem to be available in Canada..


Can you order from wolverine brass? Take a trip and buy a gross, you won't regret it. I love them.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> This one tops the cake, taxes! I pay so much income tax I truly understand now what they meant by cash flow and why some businesses seem to be profitable and overnight bam out of business. Pisses me off that I have to pay the government taxes even before you make that money. Same amount as a used entry level Ferrari!
> 
> Better not get injured or sued because they want their cut anyway and right the phock now.


many people have told you.........move to the USA......your country is a giant sponge milking you for everything you have...


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> many people have told you.........move to the USA......your country is a giant sponge milking you for everything you have...


We had that discussion the other day, we pay about the same. I went and found an online chart, I pay about 5% more from what I saw. I started to charge more last year to compensate.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> We had that discussion the other day, we pay about the same. I went and found an online chart, I pay about 5% more from what I saw. I started to charge more last year to compensate.


we pay less to what you pay....we have lots of deductions...I dont know your tax system in canada, but here in the USA..you ONLY pay tax on profit..so do you deduct all your costs from your business income? truck, fuel, repairs, tools, clothing, insurance and anything else you can throw into the mix??
we also dont have all the sales tax and fees you pay on everything and thats big..you claimed in the past, just the prices on amazon are almost double from what we pay in the US...


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> we pay less to what you pay....we have lots of deductions...I dont know your tax system in canada, but here in the USA..you ONLY pay tax on profit..so do you deduct all your costs from your business income? truck, fuel, repairs, tools, clothing, insurance and anything else you can throw into the mix??
> we also dont have all the sales tax and fees you pay on everything and thats big..you claimed in the past, just the prices on amazon are almost double from what we pay in the US...


Yep I deduct all these, the van's already deducted (can only deduct a certain percentage), As for clothes it's negligible and I don't want to test the audit when they decide to check.
And same as you taxes are deducted from profits.

Sales taxes are killer, restaurant 15% tax, buy a used car, 10-15%, sell that used car 10 times and each time it will be taxed again!


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> Yep I deduct all these, the van's already deducted (can only deduct a certain percentage), As for clothes it's negligible and I don't want to test the audit when they decide to check.
> And same as you taxes are deducted from profits.
> 
> Sales taxes are killer, restaurant 15% tax, buy a used car, 10-15%, sell that used car 10 times and each time it will be taxed again!


my sales tax is 8.63% across the board and no other fees when buying stuff...


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> This year alone with the business taxes combined I'm buying someone at the government this car :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


well then you dont have enough deductions...there are red flag deductions I dont take..like entertainment or claiming part of your house as office space, and I can push other non red flag deductions and be out of the radar of the irs...


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> well then you dont have enough deductions...there are red flag deductions I dont take..like entertainment or claiming part of your house as office space, and I can push other non red flag deductions and be out of the radar of the irs...


I deduct office space, not much though. For other deductions I don't have more receipts, that's it. This year is going to be worse, I don't need new tools unless something breaks.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> I deduct office space, not much though. For other deductions I don't have more receipts, that's it. This year is going to be worse, I don't need new tools unless something breaks.


you need to get creative...your business needed that new big screen tv for the office, office supplies and equipment, printer, computer, laptop, cell phone and monthly fee, along with your gfs car expenses , insurance..all business expenses...


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> you need to get creative...your business needed that new big screen tv for the office, office supplies and equipment, printer, computer, laptop, cell phone and monthly fee, along with your gfs car expenses , insurance..all business expenses...


Yep all that was put in except the GF which doesn't belong in the picture.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> Yep all that was put in except the GF which doesn't belong in the picture.


hell thats probably one of your biggest expenses..lmao....


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> hell thats probably one of your biggest expenses..lmao....


Most other women are expensive but not her, we tally the groceries every week. However she doesn't pay gas for the vette but she sure likes the ride! 
Last summer she's said a couple of times it's just a car... Ok no problem let's take your slow poke honda fit... Well that changed her mind quick when we arrived in places in a fraction of the time!


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## Dpeckplb (Sep 20, 2013)




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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Dpeckplb said:


> View attachment 128654



Carrying ABS and plain pex in my van chaps my azz too!! Garbage.


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## Dpeckplb (Sep 20, 2013)

skoronesa said:


> Carrying ABS and plain pex in my van chaps my azz too!! Garbage.


I’d rather install PVC and copper only. But I wouldn’t have any work because people won’t pay the extra.


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## Dpeckplb (Sep 20, 2013)

How my day started. That service truck can’t come soon enough. Nothing like this to start the day. First job take everything out, get parts, re load. That really gets to me.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Dpeckplb said:


> I’d rather install PVC and copper only. But I wouldn’t have any work because people won’t pay the extra.


Whats the price difference on doing a whole house in pvc vs abs? I do 99% service so the price difference is negligible. Might even be more expensive with abs if I have to deal with prebent pipe and use more hangers because of how flimsy it is.

When I am fixing potable it's almost always already metal or it's pex in a really tight spot where you can't get crimpers(even the pp with pex jaws) on every joint so sometimes I will do it in copper with pex adapters.



Dpeckplb said:


> How my day started. That service truck can’t come soon enough. Nothing like this to start the day. First job take everything out, get parts, re load. That really gets to me.


It's not the van, it's you! Lolz. I have a van and I have everything and it's all pretty easy to get to. There are a few things that are deep in there but they're things I need maybe once a year.

I will say that when I throw in 400# of salt, two toilets, and a dehumidifier it gets to be a pain.


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## Dpeckplb (Sep 20, 2013)

skoronesa said:


> Whats the price difference on doing a whole house in pvc vs abs? I do 99% service so the price difference is negligible. Might even be more expensive with abs if I have to deal with prebent pipe and use more hangers because of how flimsy it is.
> 
> When I am fixing potable it's almost always already metal or it's pex in a really tight spot where you can't get crimpers(even the pp with pex jaws) on every joint so sometimes I will do it in copper with pex adapters.
> 
> ...


A length of pvc schedule 40 is 10-20% more per fitting or pipe. Up here only place it’s used is heavy commercial and industrial.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Dpeckplb said:


> How my day started. That service truck can’t come soon enough. Nothing like this to start the day. First job take everything out, get parts, re load. That really gets to me.


I see a lot of wasted space on the sides, you could put a lot of shelves all the way to the top.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> Whats the price difference on doing a whole house in pvc vs abs? I do 99% service so the price difference is negligible.


Fittings are double to triple the price and many fittings they don't even have in stock and have to run around to 2-3 suppliers. And like he said it's only used in commercial or 3 stories and up.


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## BRPguy21 (Jan 15, 2021)

Well last week I went out to check a job. The customer wanted an old & leaking drinking fountain removed from the wall and just capped. So when I went out yesterday to remove it and cap the lines and as I finished up in about a half hour. But as I was leaving the manager said you're already done? I said "yes". Then she said in front of her employees "That little of work for the cost that you're charging me?" I said I gave you a flat price with disposal, parts and labor in one price. She then said "Can you cut me a deal?" I just smiled bite my tounge and said "the invoice will be in the mail"


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

BRPguy21 said:


> Well last week I went out to check a job. The customer wanted an old & leaking drinking fountain removed from the wall and just capped. So when I went out yesterday to remove it and cap the lines and as I finished up in about a half hour. But as I was leaving the manager said you're already done? I said "yes". Then she said in front of her employees "That little of work for the cost that you're charging me?" I said I gave you a flat price with disposal, parts and labor in one price. She then said "Can you cut me a deal?" I just smiled bite my tounge and said "the invoice will be in the mail"


I had a price whining woman last week, she kept nagging as I was about to leave I said if I charged 20$ I'd be like the churches and go bankrupt. Churches are almost non existent here anymore, they all closed.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

BRPguy21 said:


> Well last week I went out to check a job. The customer wanted an old & leaking drinking fountain removed from the wall and just capped. So when I went out yesterday to remove it and cap the lines and as I finished up in about a half hour. But as I was leaving the manager said you're already done? I said "yes". Then she said in front of her employees "That little of work for the cost that you're charging me?" I said I gave you a flat price with disposal, parts and labor in one price. She then said "Can you cut me a deal?" I just smiled bite my tounge and said "the invoice will be in the mail"


I would have said yea,the more you whine,the higher the price will go


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## Nazareth (Sep 30, 2017)

When you're putting in a brass screw and the head snaps


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

That cold, dry air as I ride my crotch rocket........


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Today, probably sometime this Saturday afternoon around 4.30-5.00 pm someone will call me
and ask if I can still come out now and help them out of a jam.... Well, of course
I will ask them when they noticed that they did not have hot water and they usually say
that they noticed it at about 8.30 am this morning.....
Then I will politely ask them why they did not call me this morning around 9.00 ??? Of course 
they reply that they had to go to the mall to get their nails done or they had a golf outing
with their buddies..... and how soon can you be out?? .....

I tell them we can be there first thing monday morning.....


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

When it's 2:30 on Friday, you finished your last call, get all excited planning on getting a jump on the weekend, and the dispatcher decides to put you on the call that just came in instead of telling them to wait until Monday. It's an hour the other direction from home, and a toilet issue in a house with 3 bathrooms. Yeah, I love that. 
Then you get there and the cutomer says they were surprised that you could get there so quickly, they were expecting not to get an appoitment until next week!


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

goeswiththeflow said:


> When it's 2:30 on Friday, you finished your last call, get all excited planning on getting a jump on the weekend, and the dispatcher decides to put you on the call that just came in instead of telling them to wait until Monday. It's an hour the other direction from home, and a toilet issue in a house with 3 bathrooms. Yeah, I love that.
> Then you get there and the cutomer says they were surprised that you could get there so quickly, they were expecting not to get an appoitment until next week!


They send you on calls alone as an apprentice? Just alone for drain calls? I'm surprised you're on OT call at all yet. Our guys don't go on the OT call list until they get licensed.


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## Nazareth (Sep 30, 2017)

skoronesa said:


> They send you on calls alone as an apprentice? Just alone for drain calls? I'm surprised you're on OT call at all yet. Our guys don't go on the OT call list until they get licensed.


My @ss was running on call after only apprenticing for two months

Takes four years to get licensed in UT


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

goeswiththeflow said:


> When it's 2:30 on Friday, you finished your last call, get all excited planning on getting a jump on the weekend, and the dispatcher decides to put you on the call that just came in instead of telling them to wait until Monday. It's an hour the other direction from home, and a toilet issue in a house with 3 bathrooms. Yeah, I love that.
> Then you get there and the cutomer says they were surprised that you could get there so quickly, they were expecting not to get an appoitment until next week!



This is why I work for myself!


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> Today, probably sometime this Saturday afternoon around 4.30-5.00 pm someone will call me
> and ask if I can still come out now and help them out of a jam.... Well, of course
> I will ask them when they noticed that they did not have hot water and they usually say
> that they noticed it at about 8.30 am this morning.....
> ...


I had someone this morning about not so hot water. It's a water heater brand sold in just one place, not sure if I should turn him down or take on the job and get parts anyway as I will have to spend time going there and returning what I don't need in several weeks because these stores because of covid don't accept returns. I would have to explain to him the extra 1 hour charge for this time.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> I had someone this morning about not so hot water. It's a water heater brand sold in just one place, not sure if I should turn him down or take on the job and get parts anyway as I will have to spend time going there and returning what I don't need in several weeks because these stores because of covid don't accept returns. I would have to explain to him the extra 1 hour charge for this time.


Is it electric? Usually it's just the thermostats but if you're lazy and don't want to diagnose anything you can risk the bungs leaking after and just change the elements too.


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

Where I live it is very common for apprentices to be sent out on their own, if you have half a brain. Luckily I skated by with 51%. "Supervision" is by phone, or sometimes someone is available to stop by a job if we get stuck on something.It does vary by company. Some will send anyone with a driver's license out, and you wonder how they don't run into problems when you see some of their guys and their work. Some will send no apprentice out no matter how good. They are usually the ones who used to go hog wild and flaunt the rules at every opportunity and got their pee pee slapped hard when they got caught one time. Most are careful yet practical and weigh the risks and benefits to do what they need to to get the job done.
I think I told this story before, in my first year I was left alone on a water piping job on a remodel. Awesome I thought. The guy I was working with was getting on my nerves and I needed a break from him. Old, old house with all of the pains in dealing with what goes along with that, but otherwise I was in heaven. Working along and the electrician shows up with an inspector. No problem I think, he's not there for me anyway. Nice, nice old guy. They do their thing, then start shooting the **** with me. Then he asks me if we have a plumbing permit. Of course I say, the boss handles all that stuff. He wouldn't send me on a job without a permit. Where is it he says? Oh, it must be in the office. We have no record of you having a permit. You need to stop working. So I pack up and leave. Get sent back a week later. I specifically ask the boss if he has a permit this time. Oh, no problem, the office manager takes care of all that. So guess who shows up again that same day? Same inspector, this time not as friendly. You still have no permit. No that can't be right, I specifically asked the boss. No you don't, and it supposed to be posted on the job site. I apologized profusely and luckily he believed me that I was an innocent pawn. Apparently he knew how my boss operated. Man was I pissed. Called the boss but couldn't get ahold of him. Turns out no one had talked to him for 2 days. He was on a bender. It was on a Thursday morning, and I was so pissed I made myself a long weekend and didn't go in on Friday. Not a word was said when I went in on Monday, but I had another job and gave my 2 weeks. I am still on good terms with him, because he knows that he effed up. He's actually a great guy, just has his issues.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Those who call "hey can you unhook the sink late in the afternoon, tomorrow the counter top guys are putting a new counter with an undermount sink and re-pipe in the afternoon"? Then if by miracle it does fit the schedule no way will they want to lower the drain pipe in the wall, then they try to get the cheapest plumber or hack. Whichever is cheapest, you know plumbers should be next to free because the counter was expensive at 7-8-9-10 thousand dollars.

Seems like no one plans anything ahead, they don't call any plumbers in advance and they expect the countertop guys on doing the plumbing for free. They are then insulted to have to pay a plumber. A plumber should be like pizza delivery, 20 minutes or it's free, they are outraged you got there in 19 minutes and have to pay it..

Good news however I think most countertop companies have stopped doing plumbing on their own, one of them got a 21K fine a year or two ago and I think they spread the word.


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

A lady called me this morning around 6:30 (I usually work 9am -9pm), going on about how her cleaning lady accidentally flushed some type of tub/shower hair catcher down the toilet. 
She had a plumber come out and he said the toilet is fine but he can’t guarantee to her that it won’t cause a problem down the line. 
She ask me if it was going to cause a problem. 
I told he I don’t know. I don’t know, I wasn’t there, I don’t know you or your home, I don’t know what type of hair catcher was flushed, the age/condition of her piping etc.. she was like ok, it was a hair thingie and the plumber said it was ok.. 

I was like ok....
Crickets, then she said thanks for your help! click. 

3 mins of wasted sleep.


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## Eyelow (Oct 29, 2013)

Most of my annoyance happened during side-jobs.

#1 - I were doing a job for a middle aged guy, changed some valves, new copper pipings, etc. 

When I was done I told the the guy "I'm finnished with the jobs that you've requested, I'll pack my tools and be on my way"

Translated "I'm done with the job, please have the money ready when I'm done packing and ready to leave"

What the customer is hearing "He forgot about the payment, lucky me"

So, when I am by my car ready to leave the guy just stares at me and says "well thank you and goodbye", where I respond well there is this matter of payment? And he looks confused and apologizes.

#2 - I were requested by another customer to finish his plumbing for of a heating system, so I did, weren't done very well (by him) but I like the challenge. We agreed upon an hourly wage, when I was done I summed up the cost of hours plus materials and told him.

The guy in return got so mad and started googling up the material costs and what not and started a discussion over pennies and cents with me.

I just told him calmly, Sir, I don't mind you checking prices and arguing with me about pennies and cents, but we had an agreement, so this can end in two ways.

1 - You pay me, end of story.

2 - You dont pay me, I disassemble everything I've done plus I'll take your electronics from your how for the same value of my build + disassemblent cost and materials.

Well, he paid rather quickly.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Eyelow said:


> #2 - I were requested by another customer to finish his plumbing for of a heating system, so I did, weren't done very well (by him) but I like the challenge. We agreed upon an hourly wage, when I was done I summed up the cost of hours plus materials and told him.
> 
> The guy in return got so mad and started googling up the material costs and what not and started a discussion over pennies and cents with me.
> 
> ...



Welcome to my world!! Happens a lot less now that I screen.


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

I've had a rash of people not planning ahead lately. Usually it's women doing a remodel and they have to have this nice fancy vanity or whatnot that has no compatibility with their existing plumbing. I'm going back to a house on Monday for the 4th time! None of it my fault. She pays me without complaint each time, and likes me, unfortunately. The first of our guys who went out was just as capable, way more experience than me, and a nice guy, but whatever he did he had the sense to get her to request that he not be sent back. I should have done the same when I saw her fancy glass tiles and her swanky shower arm system that requires it be bolted to the wall at the shower head and 3' down. No way in hell was I drilling into those tiles. Told her to have the tile guys do it.
I love it when you tell them how it is and what needs to be done that is way above what they were expecting, and they can't accept it and try everything and every question to get you to tell them what they want to hear. My patience and tact really get stretched thin with those conversations.
What about new home buyers who didn't get an inspection, and you have to break the bad news to them that they have a nightmare on their hands? I'm expecting a rash of them with the way real estate is selling out of control here. There are so many bids on homes that sellers can easily go with those that won't get an inspection. I generally think inspections are scams, except for morons who don't know dry wall from a dry well.


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## Michael Young (May 12, 2021)

SC Plumbing Repair said:


> We all run into things on a regular basis that just really irritates us to no end. This little thing might make you mad as a hornet but it doesn't even phase the other guy.
> 
> The one thing that really sets me off is having to remove closet bolts where the lazy a$$, so called plumber that set the toilet didn't bother to cut the bolts properly but rather broke them off or used bolt cutters. Now you have to spend half an hour just to remove a closet bolt.
> 
> ...


Dude, use an Oscillating Tool and you can cut those bolts in less than a minute.
-Mike
LINK DELTE


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Michael Young said:


> Dude, use an Oscillating Tool and you can cut those bolts in less than a minute.
> -Mike


You have till evening to post a proper intro, any links or referral and you will be banned.


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

Michael Young said:


> What really sets me off are KARENS. We type HCFB (heinous *-faced **) on our service tickets and blacklist HCFB homeowners.


how often do you get a Karen?
When are you going to post your intro?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Tango said:


> What pisses me off :
> 
> 1) Those who literally use a stop watch. Or argue the time putting the tools away doesn't count or worse getting tools and parts to and from the van shouldn't count. So my paperwork says you pay for that time!
> 
> ...






STOP billing for time and materials!!!!!

Come on over to flat rate....you'll be glad that you did.......


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Eyelow said:


> Most of my annoyance happened during side-jobs.
> 
> #1 - I were doing a job for a middle aged guy, changed some valves, new copper pipings, etc.
> 
> ...





I have been telling plumbers for years to forget about T&M. That is archaic. It turns people into clock-watchers and then they dispute the bill. "Oh, you were on the phone with your wife, I don't feel that I should have to pay that time." Or, "I used a plumber to do the exact same job back where I used to live, and he didn't charge that."
Etc., etc., etc.

The plumber who charges T&M for a service repair is setting himself up for a dispute over price. 
Now granted, some things are better off being T&M. But for most service jobs, flat rate is the way to go.


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## Michael Young (May 12, 2021)

Logtec said:


> how often do you get a Karen?
> When are you going to post your intro?


we get about one karen a week

I posted my intro yesterday


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## Eyelow (Oct 29, 2013)

Tommy plumber said:


> I have been telling plumbers for years to forget about T&M. That is archaic. It turns people into clock-watchers and then they dispute the bill. "Oh, you were on the phone with your wife, I don't feel that I should have to pay that time." Or, "I used a plumber to do the exact same job back where I used to live, and he didn't charge that."
> Etc., etc., etc.
> 
> The plumber who charges T&M for a service repair is setting himself up for a dispute over price.
> Now granted, some things are better off being T&M. But for most service jobs, flat rate is the way to go.


Tommy, I understand your point.

But if you agree to complete someone elses work and you don't know what they've put inside the walls or how they've installed it, you can't give a flat rate. Sure you can always "guard yourself" with a higher price but that may equal out to the same or more than the hourly.

There are so many factors to take in to account when doing service work at "builder bobs" house.

Weirdly enough, I have been to more arguments about flat rate than I have with hourly rate.

Becuase,I've agreed to a flatrate, lets say 1000$, the customer in his own head thinks it's a 3 day job, I did it in 1 day, so now they start arguing about overpricing for "minimal" work.

So my arguments is always, if it would have taken me longer than you've anticipated would you have paid me more? The answer is always, no. End or arguments.

I agree with you to some point and disagree to some. My view of point is from Sweden to keep in mind, very different workculture and it's very rarely people argue over hourly pay.

Thank you for you input.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Tommy plumber said:


> I have been telling plumbers for years to forget about T&M. That is archaic. It turns people into clock-watchers and then they dispute the bill. "Oh, you were on the phone with your wife, I don't feel that I should have to pay that time." Or, "I used a plumber to do the exact same job back where I used to live, and he didn't charge that."
> Etc., etc., etc.
> 
> The plumber who charges T&M for a service repair is setting himself up for a dispute over price.
> Now granted, some things are better off being T&M. But for most service jobs, flat rate is the way to go.


Here fixed it for you :_ On many occasions the plumber who charges FLAT RATE for a service repair is setting himself up to work for free._

You always come with the flat rate argument and I always go back to my T&M. here's my reality, in my reality with so much diy peasantries it would bite me more than not. This call was for a clogged laundry, well the line was never clogged!!!! !!!! !!!!! !!!!!!. It was diy hacked! If I'd flat rate it to try and unclog it I would of given all the materials for free, worked an extra 3 hours for free to re-pipe including the diy joints not even glued along the way, remove the running trap and I would of had to hire a drywall guy at my expense! 

Sure some jobs you can flat rate and I do it sometimes but very rarely. Imagine telling the customer to repair the always running toilet it's going to cost him 350$ and it only takes you 30 minutes? Eyelow said it best they will argue you gouged them for this short amount of time. Both ways I would get price complaints.



I cut out the wall and this is what I found


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## Dontbitenails (Oct 16, 2020)

I will use flat rate for jobs that I know how long they usually take. Water Heaters replacements, Toilet replacements , faucet replacements, etc. But how do you give a flat rate for a leak coming out of a ceiling? Or a smell ? I like flat rate as you can quickly quote a customer a price. Worked for several different owners and they all had different ways to make a buck. Trust goes a long way with customers. Hourly is probably the fairest as each job costs what it took to complete. No 2 jobs are the same. You can tweak Hourly to be un fair also . Each their own, make money and show a good profit


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Tango said:


> Here fixed it for you :_ On many occasions the plumber who charges FLAT RATE for a service repair is setting himself up to work for free._
> 
> You always come with the flat rate argument and I always go back to my T&M. here's my reality, in my reality with so much diy peasantries it would bite me more than not. This call was for a clogged laundry, well the line was never clogged!!!! !!!! !!!!! !!!!!!. It was diy hacked! If I'd flat rate it to try and unclog it I would of given all the materials for free, worked an extra 3 hours for free to re-pipe including the diy joints not even glued along the way, remove the running trap and I would of had to hire a drywall guy at my expense!
> 
> ...






*How many times have I told you Tango, stop going behind my work!*


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Tommy plumber said:


> *How many times have I told you Tango, stop going behind my work!*


I win this round T/M vs Flat rate! And the last time too! 

T/M = 2
Flat rate = 0


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

I absolutely love it when I pull up to a house and there is no place to park other than blocking access to the trash bins or the mailbox, and the customer gets all bent out of shape at ME for having the nerve to do so when they are the ones who called me to their home to do the job for them. Sometimes they wait to say something until after I've already started work and/or unpacked a lot of my tools. I just love, LOVE it, when it's a frantic woman or a prissy man who can't think beyond their narrow mindset, and just move the damn bins accros the street to their neighbor's for one day, or, heaven forbid skip one day of mail delivery. As far as I'm concerned not getting mail for a day is a reprieve from more bills, but these idiots act like they are missing the only pony express delivery for a month. I am far from inconsiderate about these things, and try to avoid them when possible, but sometimes there is no other choice other than walking a block away, and I ain't about to do that carrying tools and materials. Customers can be so petty and shortsighted about so many things, but this one really gets me.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

And Heaven forbid that they should think to move one of their (3) high price cars to make room for you 
ahead of time !


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

When tweekers set up a public bathroom in the back of my parking lot


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

Many years ago when I first worked for R.R. I had to park have blocking the driveway, My helper
went out to get some tools out of truck and left the rear door open, and of course the H.O. had to get his truck out and hit the door, had to drive around the rest of the day with a bungee strap holding the door closed,
Lucky the Owner had a retired truck in the back yard, to get a door !


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

Set up a Port A Potty and charge admission lol


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## DogGod (Jul 7, 2021)

Losing jobs because the secretary scheduled wrong or argued with the customer. Managers that have no Plumbing knowledge. People who lie.

When it's really hot out and customers don't have their AC on.


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

Yeah, I just love it when I am right in the middle of a job and they tell me that I need to move my van because someone needs to get out, esp when they have an attitude about it. I used to jump right up. Now I take my sweet time. Sometimes I'll even make them ask me a second time.
When I was a second year I was too polite, and worked in a sweltering, filthy, smelly mobile home one time without complaint. Today I would tell them no way I am working in those conditions. Apparently I was too polite, since she called me back for a complaint of boiling hot water coming from her garden hose. She left it out in the baking full sun, and turned it off the second she felt the hot. I arrived and got cold water after running it a minute. I joyfully charged her the full minimum hour plus truck charge, and I did not make any attempt to cover my disgust at being called out for such a moronic issue. Apparently it worked, since I never got called back there again.
We have a dispatcher who is completely unreasonable. She'll underestimate the time it atkes to do a job and then book in another call based on that. It used to bother me, but I just do my job and finish when I finish. She never learns, and will still do it, only to have to call them and reschedule when I can't get there when she told them I would. Often she'll book them the same day only to have to call them and reschedule a few hours later. By the time I get there they are often well pissed after have been rescheduled 3 times, sometime more. I really do not like throwing my coworkers under the bus, but in this case I make it real clear that I have no control over scheduling, so at least they usually understand and are not pissed at me. Usually, but sometimes we get that one who just wants to be pissed, and they get all the reason they need after being inconvenienced several times before I get there, no matter how good a job I do. She also refuses to understand how some people will take a day off from work to be home for us when she tells them we will be there. I don't blame them one bit for being pissed.
I love it when they have to shut the light off every single phucking time I come up from the basement.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

My toolbag, my sweatbox, and a bucket.

"That's a lot of tools!"

I don't care if they're 80 years old, I smiled back like they're an idiot and say "No it's not, I can get that ll in one trip, some jobs have so many tools it takes 2 or 3 trips.". I was hot, sweaty, and tired. It was my last call.


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

I had one guy praise me up and down, very happy with what I did, it turned out to be quicker, simpler and cheaper than he expected, but then comes time to pay and he has the nerve to say, gee, I wish that I could afford to give you a tip. He should have just kept his mouth shut and let me appreciate all his compliments.
How about the butt crack jokes? Mine never shows, but they really annoy the schitt out of me when they have to make one anyway.


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## DogGod (Jul 7, 2021)

NEXSTAR CULT


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## Eyelow (Oct 29, 2013)

There are alot of legit complaints regarding home owners, but I would have to disagree with one that has come up a few times.

When a plumber parks behind a home owners car and get asked to move it. As a former plumber I have to agree with the home owner, it's just common sense.

Atleast in Sweden, to this day it's a rare thing to come across.

If I would have a job scheduled I would speak with the home owner (when I make an appointment), if they have a driveway make sure to drive their cars out so that I can park mine closer to the entrance, if they forgot call them or knock on the door and tell them what you've agreed upon before arrival.

Being a serviceplumber is not just knowing how to handle your job, but unfortunetly also thinking for the customer sometimes because they take things for granted, it's the difference in my opinion between being an everyday worker and someone who wants to excel further into their career.


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## DogGod (Jul 7, 2021)

Always park on the street if you can. When you knock on the door and you've parked in the driveway always ask if my truck is parked okay. This will show sensitivity and also will set the call. It's never a problem to move the truck


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

Eyelow said:


> There are alot of legit complaints regarding home owners, but I would have to disagree with one that has come up a few times.
> 
> When a plumber parks behind a home owners car and get asked to move it. As a former plumber I have to agree with the home owner, it's just common sense.
> 
> ...


WOW 37 POSTS IN 8 YEARS !


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## northplm (Jul 11, 2021)

Mine is when a fellow has his heart set on being my "big helper". Sometimes he's just really worried about lighting, as though his greatest fear on earth is that there isn't enough light for the plumber. However I get the feeling that usually the light is more to help him see than to help me see. He's either blazing a flashlight in my eyes, or he has some big DeWalt tree stand that looks like he stole it from a Coast Guard search and rescue ship, giving off so much heat I need sun screen. Typically this big helper likes to follow me around the house, up the stairs when I get something from my truck, then back down into the basement. I'm getting pretty crusty lately so a lot of times I just turn his giant spotlight away and tell him it's blinding me, and go for extra trips up and down the stairs to see if I can wear his old ass out. Most of the time they can't keep pace, and end up pulling up their lawn chair to supervise the plumbing from a few feet away.


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

If it makes you feel good to treat another human being like that, well, you do you.


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## DogGod (Jul 7, 2021)

You know what really chaps my ass. Plumbing supply houses with out of order sign on the bathroom door. I'm like seriously you got the part right there!


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## DogGod (Jul 7, 2021)

Oh yeah and Maryland. That's right the whole fracking state.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Tango said:


> I win this round T/M vs Flat rate! And the last time too!
> 
> T/M = 2
> Flat rate = 0



T/M will never win against flat rate.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

dhal22 said:


> T/M will never win against flat rate.


It does if you charge enough and work diligently.


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## DogGod (Jul 7, 2021)

skoronesa said:


> It does if you charge enough and work diligently.


Negative ghost rider t/m is always doomed.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

DogGod said:


> Negative ghost rider t/m is always doomed.


~60% of our company's income is T/M. I guess we've been doomed for generations, probably going to be doomed for generations to come. We must accept our fate as the biggest/healthiest shop around and make the best of it.

Oh woe is us!!! I just couldn't handle another xmas bonus, take home catered turkey dinner, or another company xmas party! We all put so many miles on our personal vehicles since we are forced to take our work vans home!

If you can't make good money doing T/M then you're doing it wrong.


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## northplm (Jul 11, 2021)

This one ticks me off, you guys have those door handles on older houses that are too close to the door jamb, so when you close the door behind you your hand gets pinched between the handle and the frame?  I'm pretty good about sniffing them out now but I still crush my hand from time to time.


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## DogGod (Jul 7, 2021)

Flat rate is time and material is truly SET TIME AND MATERIAL for each job. If it's too complicated for you to be upfront with a customer and know your job well enough to know how long it will take for each job... and give them an accurate price before performing the work... 


I say this with love. Plumbers are the best. 

If I went to the mechanic and he was like its 125$ an hour plus parts and who knows how long it will take and ol crosseyed bubba John will do the work... well I wouldn't be happy.. unless I took a chance and found they were actually good.

Truth is there are many ways of doing things.. if you can run an honest shop whether it's one way or the other kudos to you. 

Life is incentive based... socialism doesn't work. We are arguing different forms of capitalism. As long as you think America is great and god is good. Then I approve. It is my opinion because of the quality of workmanship I have seen in my short 20 years that flat rate is better and that segmented snakes suck ass.


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## DogGod (Jul 7, 2021)

Foot fungus really makes me mad


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

DogGod said:


> ...............If I went to the mechanic and he was like its 125$ an hour plus parts and who knows how long it will take...........


How often do you do service or small jobs?

Do you give flat rate estimates or quotes?

Do you charge for your time to give that quote/estimate even if they say no?


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## DogGod (Jul 7, 2021)

I have been a service plumber for 20 years. I do large and small jobs. I have worked for famous people and hoarders. I work northern va. I was in DeAngelo Halls house the other day. 

Dispatch fee, I will visually inspect the problem. That typically gives a multichoice estimate. Let's say a garbage disposal.. easy to give a few options. From cheap to bell's and whistles with enzymes.

If diagnostic is required or drywall needs to be cut or I have to enter a bad crawlspace or let's say I need to open a tankless system or water filtration system then a diagnostic is charged. If customer agrees then dispatch fee is waived and diagnostic fee is applied.

Once I have diagnosed or located the issue then multiply options are give to repair or replace. Flat rate is made to be packaged together. I won't give too much pricing detail in a public forum however when used correctly it is fair and true. 

I do not pressure customers and they do not stress about how much time it takes for the job. I get good reviews and tips from almost every customer. If I need to take a break or something isn't going my way the customer isn't penalized for it. 

Let's say you have a customer. You change a disposal. You charge 100 for the part and 100 per hr... you struggle on this job and it takes you. Rusted flange everything is a pain. You charge for 3hrs plus parts so 400. Now you did everything right and the customer loves you. You clean up and leave a card and leave. That customer then tells family or friends about you and you get a call for another disposal. This one takes you 1 hr.... now you charge 200..for the same job. 

Customer A talks to customer B..then calls and complains they were over charged..writes bad reviews.. you sir are F'd..you return the money still to late your prices aren't consistent. 

So now you go to fast.. you miss work because your being paid by the hour.. you prejudge customers and miss the extra work.. and maybe not you cause you are awesome but your employees in general.. human nature..statistics..

Flat rate eliminates this..but what do I know? I'm just a guy


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

skoronesa said:


> It does if you charge enough and work diligently.


I am so efficient and experienced that I can do a job in half or a third of what most plumbers can so no effin way way t/m works for me. Why should i reward the customer for being fast and efficient? I reward myself. 

Not patting myself on the back, just trying to make a point.


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## SC Plumbing Repair (Dec 7, 2020)

MACPLUMB777 said:


> WOW 37 POSTS IN 8 YEARS !


That's because they are a "Former Plumber".


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## Nathan109 (Aug 5, 2021)

dhal22 said:


> I am so efficient and experienced that I can do a job in half or a third of what most plumbers can so no effin way way t/m works for me. Why should i reward the customer for being fast and efficient? I reward myself.
> 
> Not patting myself on the back, just trying to make a point.


The same thing happened to me all the time with flat rate service prices.
I can roll up to a 40 gallon tall electric water heater, wide open in a garage and be writing the invoice in 60-90 minutes.
“I can go to Home Depot and buy a water heater for half of this price! You were hardly here an hour!”

Doesn’t matter the office quoted you over the phone and they prepaid with cc. Sometimes being too good can be problematic too I guess.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

Spend more checking all the faucets to confirm that all the air has been bled out, fill out the warranty paper work,
that is value perceived


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## DogGod (Jul 7, 2021)

Nathan109 said:


> The same thing happened to me all the time with flat rate service prices.
> I can roll up to a 40 gallon tall electric water heater, wide open in a garage and be writing the invoice in 60-90 minutes.
> “I can go to Home Depot and buy a water heater for half of this price! You were hardly here an hour!”
> 
> Doesn’t matter the office quoted you over the phone and they prepaid with cc. Sometimes being too good can be problematic too I guess.


I always state to the customer before even getting them a price "if you want cheap" go to home depot they have "installers" not plumbers. If you want a plumber to do it now I'm your guy. If a customer says he can get it from home depot for cheaper he has already priced it and was unhappy with something.. maybe home depot can't do it for a month or whatever... squash that argument before it happens... same with toilet installs.. believe me when I say this.. that customer will appreciate you for offering that option and not hiding it and frankly most my customers say..."I'm not cheap".. 

Always recommend home depot before giving pricing.. 

Also explain flat rate.. so easy


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## DogGod (Jul 7, 2021)

MACPLUMB777 said:


> Spend more checking all the faucets to confirm that all the air has been bled out, fill out the warranty paper work,
> that is value perceived


Do more.. test water quality.. check all toilets maybe give a free flapper or two.. check house pressure...should be doing that already.. be a service provider..


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## Nathan109 (Aug 5, 2021)

When you get to the shop to load up in the morning and your schedule is loaded from 8:00 straight through until 5:00 You don’t have time to dwaddle for non billable tasks beyond standard customer interaction. Don’t want to work till the street lights come on everyday haha
( Aways talk the little old ladies because it makes their whole month)


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

MACPLUMB777 said:


> Spend more checking all the faucets to confirm that all the air has been bled out, fill out the warranty paper work,
> that is *value perceived*





DogGod said:


> Do more.. test water quality.. check all toilets maybe give a free flapper or two.. check house pressure...should be doing that already.. *be a service provider..*


*
EXACTLY.*



DogGod said:


> ................ believe me when I say this.. that customer will appreciate you for offering that option and not hiding it .................


Whenever I suggest something expensive I always make the point that they should get several other quotes AND *compare the quotes to see if they are really equal*, such as pex vs copper, solder vs sharkbite, the size of the softener, etc.* Customers appreciate it and know they can trust me because I am helping them understand what is and isn't good.* I am wiling to explain the downsides to what we might do and why it's the better trade off. *There are almost always downsides, don't hide them.*



Nathan109 said:


> When you get to the shop to load up in the morning and your schedule is loaded from 8:00 straight through until 5:00 *You don’t have time to dwaddle for non billable tasks beyond standard customer interaction. *Don’t want to work till the street lights come on everyday haha
> ( Aways talk the little old ladies because it makes their whole month)


Like hell you don't. *What you don't have time for is a call back.*

Only takes 5mins to walk through a house and double check everything. Don't need a call back for a clogged aerator because the water main hadn't been shut in 5 years. *All customers, not just little old ladies, enjoy some face time.* Find something you like about their house and mention it.


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