# drain cleaners (chemical) and vents



## tooslow (Jul 17, 2009)

Never been a fan for drain cleaners, my business has switched gears and I am doing service work that is new to me. I have hooked up with a contractor that I used to do new work for (that work has dried up) we are now taking care of Postal facilities in a 100 mile radius. 

I recently ran a 5/16 cable down a couple of sink lines--had to pull the traps,
as there was no c/0. Sinks still had a slow drain that I am not satisfied with.

My next guess is a plugged vent and I may open up the wall, last resort.

I guess that is why I am asking about the chemicals.


Thanks,

pat


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Your going to have a learning curve.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

If I were to get to the point of using a chemical...I'd make sure the HO didn't see me...


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I dont use drain chemicals.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Get on the roof and clean the vents if you think they're plugged. This sounds like a good candidate for a jetter. Drain cleaning chemicals are the devil!




Paul


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I guess you're headed for a long learning curve is you're thinking a clogged vent can cause a slow drain...

It would take some very special situations for that to happen...:whistling2:

We might have to go right to plumbing basics and ask what is the purpose of a vent...

Once you answer that you might have to ask how lack of a vent would do anything except to cause the drain to drain faster and pull the water out of the trap...:yes:

Going back to your drain that isn't clearing...

Either you haven't touched the clog yet or, you have been through it and it didn't move...

Quite often I like to add water while I'm stirring...

Remember what the drain cleaners say, "Water Is My Friend.":thumbup:


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## tnoisaw (Jun 16, 2009)

I seldom recomend them. Saying that, I did today because I could not get my cable through the 1 1/4 copper fitting that was about 18 inches below the S-trap (Yes, I said S trap) I tried to suck it out with 3/4 pex taped to a vaccum hose. No luck. I recomended a chemical for the weekend and if that doesn't work we may have to do some demolition.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Redwood said:


> I guess you're headed for a long learning curve is you're thinking a clogged vent can cause a slow drain...
> 
> It would take some very special situations for that to happen...:whistling2:
> 
> ...


I hate to correct you but a lack of a vent would not allow the drain to flow faster. It would be slower. It will sihpon the water from the trap as you indicated.

Try Lye and water mixture.....no smell..... and will go through anything


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> I hate to correct you but a lack of a vent would not allow the drain to flow faster. It would be slower. It will sihpon the water from the trap as you indicated.


Really that is a bit of news to me...:whistling2:

A drain siphoning can do very nicely especially if it has a bit of fall to it...:yes:

I'll stand by my diagnosis that the drain is clogged...:thumbup:

The vent protects the trap seal!


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> I hate to correct you but a lack of a vent would not allow the drain to flow faster. It would be slower. It will sihpon the water from the trap as you indicated.
> 
> Try Lye and water mixture.....no smell..... and will go through anything


I have to strongly side with Red's comment here. For my 1st 10 years in Chicago all you'd hear from the janitors or other know nothings that they thought the vent was clogged. Its a rare bird and almost always a drain issue ( I know about the possible scenarios ). After 20 years plus in Florida you still hear , "I think the vent might be clogged" and there is gurgling and etc ect..Statistically, its a drain..and a jetter is better ( rhyming ) for some things....my 10 cents


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## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

Only thing draino is good for is for meth production.

I dont believe in chemicals, they never work


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## tnoisaw (Jun 16, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> I hate to correct you but a lack of a vent would not allow the drain to flow faster. It would be slower. It will sihpon the water from the trap as you indicated.
> 
> Try Lye and water mixture.....no smell..... and will go through anything


 I agree here because I've seen it. For example: If you hold a bottle completely upside down it will drain slowly as it sucks for air. Turn it on its side a little and create a way for air to get in it drains faster. It doesn't happen very often- I think I've only seen it a few times in fifteen years.


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## mongo (Jun 26, 2010)

I do not use chemicals. 

I believe that the drain is partially obstructed by a semi-clog (new word?).

How far is the fixture from the waste stack? Are any other fixtures being served by the same drain?

I would think that rodding from the vent on the roof would be best if it is not in the fixture drain. You might want to try a sewer cam too.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

tnoisaw said:


> I agree here because I've seen it. For example: If you hold a bottle completely upside down it will drain slowly as it sucks for air. Turn it on its side a little and create a way for air to get in it drains faster. It doesn't happen very often- I think I've only seen it a few times in fifteen years.


Except a sink is not a bottle.:laughing:

The top of the sink is open.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Just to clarify

1. No vent on plumbing will make a drain slow.

2. I am not saying that his vent is blocked

3. although if the vent was not roughed in properly etc. back fall then yes a vent could get blocked .


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> Just to clarify
> 
> 1. No vent on plumbing will make a drain slow.
> 
> ...


1 All those old s-trapped drains ran slow eh? Some of them were the fastest drains I have ever seen, unless they were clogged.

2 Good because it probably is not.

3 A vent can become blocked, but is very unusual, and would probably only be noticed by gurgling in the traps signifying the lose of protection to the seal of the trap.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Redwood said:


> 1 All those old s-trapped drains ran slow eh? Some of them were the fastest drains I have ever seen, unless they were clogged.


Back then S trap my have worked fine as the plumbing system where a lot simpler. One washroom home in a 800 sqft house and the kitchen was tied in 5 to 10 ft away from the main stack.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> Back then S trap my have worked fine as the plumbing system where a lot simpler. One washroom home in a 800 sqft house and the kitchen was tied in 5 to 10 ft away from the main stack.


But they didn't drain slow did they?:whistling2:

All the vent does is protect the trap seal...


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Except a sink is not a bottle.:laughing:
> 
> The top of the sink is open.



Exactly, atmospheric pressure forces the water down the drain on non vented drains. 

Tape some plastic to the top of the sink tightly and now the sink will drain slowly. I always got a kick out of those that try to bring up the water in the straw example.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

So how do you think the water is going down the drain with out a vent.


Is it going down in one solid chunk or flowing at only a % of the capacity of the pipe.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> So how do you think the water is going down the drain with out a vent.
> 
> 
> Is it going down in one solid chunk or flowing at only a % of the capacity of the pipe.


It is going down in one solid chunk flowing at 100 % of the capacity of the pipe. until it is done draining and sucks air through the trap very similar to a toilet.:thumbup:

Which by the way is an unvented s-trap.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Redwood said:


> It is going down in one solid chunk flowing at 100 % of the capacity of the pipe. until it is done draining and sucks air through the trap very similar to a toilet.:thumbup:
> 
> Which by the way is an unvented s-trap.


 
My point exactly. 100% capacity flow has to be a hell of a lot slower than if the pipe was only 30 to 40% full of water.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Redwood said:


> It is going down in one solid chunk flowing at 100 % of the capacity of the pipe. until it is done draining and sucks air through the trap very similar to a toilet.:thumbup:
> 
> Which by the way is an unvented s-trap.


 
As for a toilet you do not want fast flow.


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## bartnc37 (Feb 24, 2009)

If the vent does not affect how fixtures drain then why is it that when one forgets to pull to test cap off of the main 3" stack or the frost over in the winter the toilets wont flush properly. Drains prevent both positive and negative pressure, probably not noticeable on a lav due to the drain being oversized for the .5GPM but they sure as heck will screw with a W.C. on a 3" line or ACW on a 1.5".


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> My point exactly. 100% capacity flow has to be a hell of a lot slower than if the pipe was only 30 to 40% full of water.


I'm having trouble following the logic here...
I hope someone didn't just get a new signature...:laughing:

Which is flowing more water?

The river in the summer that is dry except for water in the channel...

Or that same river in the spring when melting snow and spring rains has it overflowing its banks?:whistling2:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Redwood said:


> I'm having trouble following the logic here...
> I hope someone didn't just get a new signature...:laughing:
> 
> Which is flowing more water?
> ...


Around ...Around we go:laughing: soon I have to head to bed.

How about putting that river in a pipe :whistling2:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> Around ...Around we go:laughing: soon I have to head to bed.
> 
> How about putting that river in a pipe :whistling2:


Same difference...

Same pitch and pipe diameter which is flowing more...

The almost empty pipe or, the one that is full of water...:whistling2:

Oh Ya and the pipe is not clogged!

Hint: You might find this link helpful http://engineeringtoolbox.com/


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Same difference...
> 
> Same pitch and pipe diameter which is flowing more...
> 
> ...


 
Well Red.... seeing this is all about you saying* you dont need a vent* then guess what the pipe with water flowing in it plus air would have a better flow than 100% full of water.

Dont forget this is gravity and not a forced system

and Your link is riddled with advertising

Thank God you did not write the plumbing code or we would still be back in the dark ages :laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> Well Red.... seeing this is all about you saying* you dont need a vent* then guess what the pipe with water flowing in it plus air would have a better flow than 100% full of water.
> 
> Dont forget this is gravity and not a forced system
> 
> ...


I'm not saying that you don't need vents... Never did say that!
Vents are essential to protecting the trap seal and protecting the heath...
That is why we have the plumbing code...

But venting has nothing to do with the flow of water and waste in a pipe by gravity.

It will go downhill unless the pipe is obstructed...

One of the few places you could get the flow to stop by lack of venting would be into a closed container such as a sealed ejector pit that has no vent allowing air to escape so that the water and waste can enter the pit...

Maybe it can happen in a line that has a big time belly creating a double trap effect...

But, Almost every other circumstance involves a clogged drain....

*That's My Point And I'm Sticking To It!* :laughing:

If you argue that you are either wrong or, misunderstanding the statement.:whistling2:

As far as the 100% or, 40% capacity which is flowing more that is a helluva sig...:laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I was agrin'in and a laughin at the same time when i read your post :laughing:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Let me get this straight. A 40% full 4" pipe is flowing more gpm's than a 100% full 4" pipe? :laughing:

Seriously........


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Matt said:


> Let me get this straight. A 40% full 4" pipe is flowing more gpm's than a 100% full 4" pipe? :laughing:
> 
> Seriously........


Oh Boy :blink:

Not you too........ did Redwood need back up???

First off we are discussing drainage and vent. 

Pipe size for any particular fixture is sized at what?..... 100% full? NO

First off a drain line completely full of water would chug its way down the line.

Redwood and my arguement was about vent on plumbing.

Red says no vent required and that an S trap flows just fine and even better with out a vent.

I disagree....


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Its always risky to jump in...
Unless the drainage end of the line is blocked or sealed ( as in a basin )then the vent wont affect the flow rate..
People complaining about a slow drain need the drain cleared. As long as there is air flow in the lateral the rate is normal..
If there was a flow in a full pipe and the discharge end had air and the supply end had a blocked or no vent..the trap would suck dry..I dont think that momentary drag is the issue at hand and flow rate would not be impeded.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

stillaround said:


> Its always risky to jump in...
> Unless the drainage end of the line is blocked or sealed ( as in a basin )then the vent wont affect the flow rate..
> People complaining about a slow drain need the drain cleared. As long as there is air flow in the lateral the rate is normal..
> If there was a flow in a full pipe and the discharge end had air and the supply end had a blocked or no vent..the trap would suck dry..I dont think that momentary drag is the issue at hand and *flow rate would not be impeded.*


*Zackly!* :thumbup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I had a servi call for an island double bowl sink would not drain if you filled both bowls up and pulled the stoppers. If you just ran water with empty sinks it drained fine.

It had a center outlet waste with a 17 ga tubular brass p-trap then about a 1' piece of 1.5" dwv copper....then a 90' elll looking down to the crawlspace. Once it entered the crawl space it continued vertical for another 5' and then two 45's made a short offset and it connected to a 3x1.5" cast iron combo.

To solve the problem i installed a mechanical vent under the sink.....after I ran my cable in it 3 or 4 times and determined its not clogged..AT ALL.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TM, What do you attribute the fact that it wouldn't drain to?:whistling2:

There is no reason why it wouldn't drain that would be cured by an AAV unless there was a closed system it was draining to and the AAV was defective...

Did you verify the line was not clogged with a camera?:whistling2:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

For a full pipe you always need air....water glass example...too much water and no trap to suck dry in your example. Some touchy 1.6 gal at end of line and mech vent going to septic have exhibited syphon issues....main question addressed flow rate and the wild goose of clogged vent....I think :blink:

It should drain....gotta take these things slow its Sunday afternoon...:blink:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Is it possible...( Ive been here before and it was a humbling experience..here we go again.)...that the size of the strainer opening and c.o. waste sizing etc. slowed flow by friction enough to make the weight of the water in the sinks act as a seal.. enough to create a water glass effect....I asked it in question form..whats the worst that can happen here 

I read a little on downspouts and they are to be designed to prevent vacuum.....is this the same issue with the kitchen sink..( timidly asked as happens when I start talking just a bit beyond my intelligence..)


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

What percentage full of water are un-vented storm drain leaders sized to run at?

Hint:
The answer is NOT 40:laughing:


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I had a servi call for an island double bowl sink would not drain if you filled both bowls up and pulled the stoppers. If you just ran water with empty sinks it drained fine.
> 
> It had a center outlet waste with a 17 ga tubular brass p-trap then about a 1' piece of 1.5" dwv copper....then a 90' elll looking down to the crawlspace. Once it entered the crawl space it continued vertical for another 5' and then two 45's made a short offset and it connected to a 3x1.5" cast iron combo.
> 
> To solve the problem i installed a mechanical vent under the sink.....after I ran my cable in it 3 or 4 times and determined its not clogged..AT ALL.


 

I have seen this a number of times. A faulty AAV WILL make the drain flow slower. I have been to dozens of mobile homes where the AAV under the k/s failed and the sink would run slow. The lines were sometimes but not always verified to be free of any obstructions. Replacing the AAV cured the problem. 



Next time you are in a m/h with an under-sink AAV try this. Fill the sink completely full and let it rip. stick your head under the sink and you can hear the AAV sucking air. After that's done, pull the AAV out and cap it with your hand. Now fill the sink and try it again. It WILL run slower and you can feel the suction on your hand. You can even modulate the flow by removing your hand momentarily.


I'm not going to get into the physics and fluid dynamics of this whole thing but this is what WILL happen in these specific situations.





Paul


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

tooslow said:


> Never been a fan for drain cleaners, my business has switched gears and I am doing service work that is new to me. I have hooked up with a contractor that I used to do new work for (that work has dried up) we are now taking care of Postal facilities in a 100 mile radius.
> 
> I recently ran a 5/16 cable down a couple of sink lines--had to pull the traps,
> as there was no c/0. Sinks still had a slow drain that I am not satisfied with.
> ...


YES YOU NEED TO LEARN ABOUT DRAIN CLEANING !

IF YOU ARE PULLING THE P-TRAPS YOU NEED TO BE RUNNING A "MUCH" 

LARGER SNAKE LIKE AT LEAST 3/8" OR 1/2" CABLE !

THINK PEANUT BUTTER, VISALINE, AXEL GREASE !

ALL YOU ARE DOING IS PUTTING A SMALL HOLE IN BLOCKAGE :whistling2:

I HAVE USED A 1/4" OR 5/16" CABLE BUT ALWAYS WITH WATER IN THE 

SINK AND FLOWING THOUGH WHILE CABLE RUNS BACK AND FORTH

THE VENT IS TO RUN THE LARGER SIZE CABLES THOUGH WHILE WATER

RUNNING :thumbsup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

There was no AAV there before...thats the only reason why i was called.....I assumed it was clogged...it wasn't.....all it needed was an AAV and it drained like a champ. It was all 1.5" copper and was almost all vertical pipe except about 1' of it after the p-trap.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> There was no AAV there before...thats the only reason why i was called.....I assumed it was clogged...it wasn't.....all it needed was an AAV and it drained like a champ. It was all 1.5" copper and was almost all vertical pipe except about 1' of it after the p-trap.


Your statement doesn't add up.

The only thing that could have prevented water from entering the drain would be a positive pressure.

An AAV does nothing to relieve a positive pressure. It only allows air into the line to relieve a vacuum.

A vacuum would aid draining.:whistling2:

Unless you were using some cheapo defective junk and it was allowing air to vent out from a problem you failed to diagnose.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Your statement doesn't add up.
> 
> The only thing that could have prevented water from entering the drain would be a positive pressure.
> 
> ...


 
Thats my story and i'm stickin to it.....There was no AAV to begin with...I installed the AAV and it would drain...remove the aav and it wouldn't drain.....real simple. I'm not trying to convince you......set it up like I outlined and try it for yourself:whistling2::laughing: Nothing was missed because i recreated it by removing the aav and filling both sides of the sink then pulling the stoppers.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Is it possible that the restricted flow thru the strainer starves the draining because it has become a full pipe ...and the flow of a solid block of liquid is held by a partial vacuum...due to the orifice nature of the drain??????? The liquid in the drop of the sink drain having a greater pressure or something.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Like this maybe


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

stillaround said:


> Like this maybe


Now double that....it was a double bowl K-sink. center waste.:thumbsup: It didn't just slow up......IT LOCKED UP


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Thats my story and i'm stickin to it.....There was no AAV to begin with...I installed the AAV and it would drain...remove the aav and it wouldn't drain.....real simple. I'm not trying to convince you......set it up like I outlined and try it for yourself:whistling2::laughing: Nothing was missed because i recreated it by removing the aav and filling both sides of the sink then pulling the stoppers.


Yea I know you're sticking to it...

Just like that Noobie that called me the other night with one of the greatest mysteries ever in the drain cleaning business...

He had a main that he had "cleaned" and "was clear" except water wouldn't leave the housetrap unless he had the cleanout plug on the line after the housetrap removed...

I told him repeatedly that the line was still clogged and he needed to get back on his snake and clean it...

But the Noobie was absolutely sure that wasn't the case and something very funny was going on that couldn't be explained...

So I was having to go and camera the line the next day...

I really wished that he did his job that night because the next morning I went there and cleaned the line and when I was done the line drained with the cleanout plug installed. The camera didn't show me much 12' down the pipe it was under water and I couldn't see anything...:whistling2:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

stillaround said:


> Like this maybe


Stillaround, What you are trying to is essentially replicate the conditions that we see with vessel sinks without overflows and a grid strainer on the drain. water over the top of the grid in the sink traps air between the grid and the water in the trap choking the flow. Even in this case a vent after the trap will not bring increased flow.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Yea I know you're sticking to it...
> 
> Just like that Noobie that called me the other night with one of the greatest mysteries ever in the drain cleaning business...
> 
> ...


Well thats him and this is me. Double bowl K-sink....center outlet waste...12-15" from the outlets of the sink to the P-trap....approx 1' of pipe between the outlet of the trap and a 90 looking down to the crawl space......then it drops vertically for about 5 or 6' then takes a couple 45's offsetting to get in line with the building drain that was running by....there it connected to a 3x1.5 combo. I wish sombody would set this up and make a video. Fill both sink and pull the stoppers...from the top of the sink to the 3" it was about 8 or 9 vertical feet of 1.5" pipe.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Well thats him and this is me. Double bowl K-sink....center outlet waste...12-15" from the outlets of the sink to the P-trap....approx 1' of pipe between the outlet of the trap and a 90 looking down to the crawl space......then it drops vertically for about 5 or 6' then takes a couple 45's offsetting to get in line with the building drain that was running by....there it connected to a 3x1.5 combo. I wish sombody would set this up and make a video. Fill both sink and pull the stoppers...from the top of the sink to the 3" it was about 8 or 9 vertical feet of pipe.


Yea I'll believe ya TM you've convinced yourself...:laughing:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Ive had those vessel sinks do that . It seems once the bowl gets to a certain height it chugs it down. I know the physics has to be right and with a properly sized drain it has to flow unless clogged or air bound down the line. I was reading on roof drains and they require minimums of 7 sq inch surface area..and design to prvent vacuum. Thats why I got on this pony. Im grasping at this point but am wondering if the example is possible.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Also the concept of surface tension is a bit beyond me at present..is that what keeps the water from passing thru the grid strainer until a sufficient weight(level) overcomes it.?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Stillaround, Yup, You got it! It's a lot like a double trap situation. Put enough pressure on top and it chugs...:thumbup:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Well Red in your original arguement and theroy you stated it doesnt matter because there is air above the sink and it would not matter after that...that the water would flow.....

Get some glass pipe and try it out. I guess seeing is believing.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> Well Red in your original arguement and theroy you stated it doesnt matter because there is air above the sink and it would not matter after that...that the water would flow.....
> 
> Get some glass pipe and try it out. I guess seeing is believing.


No I stated:


Redwood said:


> I guess you're headed for a long learning curve is you're thinking a clogged vent can cause a slow drain...
> 
> It would take some very special situations for that to happen...:whistling2:
> 
> ...


So there really is no glass pipes involved.

His line was still clogged and he didn't clear it...

You guys are trying to come up with special circumstances not involving a clog, double trap, or, restriction and I'm not seeing any golden BB's yet that shoot down what I said...:whistling2:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

The K-sink drain i was working with was not clogged. It would act the exact same way if i removed the AAV and filled the sink. I had cleaned the pipe 3 times with my cable and cut a cleanout in under the crawlspace...the pipe was clean as a:whistling2:

If there was a pot of GOLD at the end of this rainbow I would take the time to mount a double sink 10' off the ground and pipe it like i explained in an earlier post and watch some of you Its too hot here to play games like that right now.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> The K-sink drain i was working with was not clogged. It would act the exact same way if i removed the AAV and filled the sink. I had cleaned the pipe 3 times with my cable and cut a cleanout in under the crawlspace...the pipe was clean as a:whistling2:
> 
> If there was a pot of GOLD at the end of this rainbow I would take the time to mount a double sink 10' off the ground and pipe it like i explained in an earlier post and watch some of you *Its too hot here to play games like that right now.*


Yea you're right TM...

I'm off to the beach for a soak...

Anytime you can explain exactly why the water stopped draining and what the AAV did to make it drain I'm all ears... But remember a plumbing defect such as clog double trap, belly, or, lack of vent on a sealed containment etc. doesn't spread the mustard...

Off to the lake laters....


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Yea you're right TM...
> 
> I'm off to the beach for a soak...
> 
> ...


I cant explain why alot of things happen per scientific explaination...but I do know that the particular piping arrangment I found without a vent with filled sinks did not drain......I installed the AAV and it drained perfectly...I could remove the AAV and it would act the same as when I first walked in the door of the house......would not drain. I repeated that process of filling both sinks with the AAV and without the AAV. 

Enjoy the lake because your gonna be  a river....:jester::laughing:


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## Kevan (Jul 5, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> I cant explain why alot of things happen per scientific explaination...but I do know that the particular piping arrangment I found without a vent with filled sinks did not drain.


I'm with you on that one. I've seen similar cases. For eleven years, drain cleaning was all I did, so eventually I saw a lot of things that I don't run into today, since I do mostly plumbing.

But I agree that the original post's problem is not the vent. Using a too-small cable is begging for a callback.

As for chemicals, practically every home I entered for a sink drain problem had an empty chemical bottle in the waste basket by the sink.


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

In my book chemicals are a no-no:no:. If you do have to end up doing some demo do you want the potential of chemical burns  plus the damage it could do to old cast iron pipe isn't worth it.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Redwood said:


> I'm not saying that you don't need vents... Never did say that!
> Vents are essential to protecting the trap seal and protecting the heath...
> That is why we have the plumbing code...
> 
> ...


 


I'd like to weigh in.... how can a plumber say "venting has nothing to do with the flow of water" ? Are you going to stand by that erroneous statement? Come on.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> I'd like to weigh in.... how can a plumber say "venting has nothing to do with the flow of water" ? Are you going to stand by that erroneous statement? Come on.


Read the thread for context please. No one is saying vents arent necessary. They protect the trap seal. As long as there is air and no obstruction in a pipe vents wont alter the flow rate..its the physics part of a mass of liquid moving by gravity. If a pipe is bellied or blocked the flow of liquid toward it will be affected. If there is air in the pipe and no obstructions nothing on the upstream end matters. S traps work. 
So a salty plumber knows where 1st to look for drainage issues.

A full pipe of liquid draining will create negative pressure on the upstream end unless there is a way to equalize it such as sucking out the trap seal or a vent....which then allows air in the pipe and flow rate is a function of gravity, momentum etc.

Many have looked for the clogged vent in a slow drain to be looking in the wrong direction.....

Flow can become air bound..it is a discharge side issue.

There may be some anomolies with an easy explanation but this fluid dynamics stuff is worse than drain chemicals...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> I'd like to weigh in.... how can a plumber say "venting has nothing to do with the flow of water" ? Are you going to stand by that erroneous statement? Come on.


Yup I'm going to stand by it!:thumbup:

But I will say in my own house and on my plumbing work a though the roof vent is my #1 choice.... I seldom find the need to install an AAV.

The water is going to go downhill unless there are other circumstances which more than likely should be corrected. You are probably begging for a callback if you don't.

If you are one of the non-believers you are fully qualified to head over to DIY Chat and answer the homeowner and handy-manny questions...



> "The water in my kitchen sink won't drain... I've dumped every chemical known to man in it and it still won't drain... Do you think the vent might be clogged?"


:laughing:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I'm taking a stab at this before I try and contact an engineer. The full kitchen sink creates head pressure at the strainer/orifice...once a full pipe of liquid is created in the drain due to its particular configuration, it is causing some negative pressure that can only seek to be equalized upward thru the orifice. With the combined effect of restricted port to equalize, and head pressure..its possible to hinder and if the numbers are such possibly stop the flow.(in my mind )

_I'm putting it to rest and ending the misery._


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Your bottle example is baseless, because the fixture is not under a vacuum like the bottle is.



tnoisaw said:


> I agree here because I've seen it. For example: If you hold a bottle completely upside down it will drain slowly as it sucks for air. Turn it on its side a little and create a way for air to get in it drains faster. It doesn't happen very often- I think I've only seen it a few times in fifteen years.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Go fill up a 5 gallon bucket and set it on the top of a ladder. Drill a hole in the bottom and put a garden hose in the bottom. Now you can do what ever you want with that hose (back pitch it several times), but as long as you don't bring the level of the hose above the top of the water line in the bucket, the bucket will still drain.

In fact, the bucket will still drain even if you DO bring a part of the hose above the water line, so long as the end of it remains below and large quantities of air is not introduced to the hose thru the bucket drain.

Now, after observing these basic rules of hydraulics, how can you make your previous argument?




OldSchool said:


> So how do you think the water is going down the drain with out a vent.
> 
> 
> Is it going down in one solid chunk or flowing at only a % of the capacity of the pipe.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

WTF are you talking about ??!?!??!

Where is this phantom force that is resisting the flow of water down the drain? The ONLY venting issue that can cause a drain to drain slower is a totally closed system.

Example: A single fixture draining into a septic tank with zero positive vents anjd no other fixtures in the system.
The water is trying to enter a sealed container and has to displace air. Since the displacing air occupies space in the drain pipe as it flows in the oposite direction, it has effectively reduced the diameter of the drain. Think of a 2 lane, 1 way road being converted into a 2 lane, 2 way road. 1/2 as many cars can now get thru due to the on coming traffic taking up 1 lane.

Adding an AAV would not help anything in this situation.

If we add other fixtures to the above situation things change. The drain will move a bit faster because the air can escape thru another fixture trap. There will still be a little resistance due to the pressure required to lift the other trap seal out of the way for the air (or should I say sewer gas) to escape the system.



stillaround said:


> I'm taking a stab at this before I try and contact an engineer. The full kitchen sink creates head pressure at the strainer/orifice...once a full pipe of liquid is created in the drain due to its particular configuration, it is causing some negative pressure that can only seek to be equalized upward thru the orifice. With the combined effect of restricted port to equalize, and head pressure..its possible to hinder and if the numbers are such possibly stop the flow.(in my mind )
> 
> _I'm putting it to rest and ending the misery._


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Protech said:


> WTF are you talking about ??!?!??!
> 
> Where is this phantom force that is resisting the flow of water down the drain? The ONLY venting issue that can cause a drain to drain slower is a totally closed system.
> 
> ...


An orifice reduces the pressure thru it. If a solid water column can form in the waste pipe and a head of sink water restricts the equalization, then the weight of the water column will be held by negative pressure.
Hers a test. Draining water heater with a valve at top to meter the aperture. If its almost closed the vacuum inside the tank will override the seep of air out the top valve and hinder flow. As long as the drain is larger so that the vacuum can build.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

stillaround said:


> An orifice reduces the pressure thru it. If a solid water column can form in the waste pipe and a head of sink water restricts the equalization, then the weight of the water column will be held by negative pressure.
> Hers a test. Draining water heater with a valve at top to meter the aperture. If its almost closed the vacuum inside the tank will override the seep of air out the top valve and hinder flow. As long as the drain is larger so that the vacuum can build.


Again we are talking about a vacuum in a closed container which does not apply in the case of any fixture.

Of course a water heater needs and air vent to drain. Or, for that matter a straw with a finger over it or, a soda bottle.

We are talking about sinks, tubs, and toilets none of which have a sealed cover. They all have atmospheric pressure above them.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Again we are talking about a vacuum in a closed container which does not apply in the case of any fixture.
> 
> Of course a water heater needs and air vent to drain. Or, for that matter a straw with a finger over it or, a soda bottle.
> 
> We are talking about sinks, tubs, and toilets none of which have a sealed cover. They all have atmospheric pressure above them.


 I know, but I started running some vectors in a drawing on this notion that the restriction caused by the strainer opening in relation to the size of the potentially full drain pipe which is larger also being affected by head pressure in the sink water above just might turn into a golden bb example. I got going on this.....if the heater drains faster than the vented air can keep up the vacuum increases and with that in mind..if the drain has more column of water weight exerting gravity force down..I'm wondering if the strainer restriction and head pressure could starve the drain from equalized pressure. I'll humbly admit wrong if there is no merit to this.

In any case, I sent off the question and a drawing to a fluid engineer in Ohio..LMNO engineering, a guy named Ken Edwards and he said he'd look at it. He has a couple short videos of basic experiments involving friction loss to help hawk his software: at this link http://www.lmnoeng.com/Video/index.shtml

I asked after drawing a double bowl kitchen sink scenario with no vent and assumed open air free and clear drain, if there was a plausible set of numbers in his experience that could substantiate the restricted flow.
He seems nice . I'll post as I get the info.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

stillaround said:


> I know, but I started running some vectors in a drawing on this notion that the restriction caused by the strainer opening in relation to the size of the potentially full drain pipe which is larger also being affected by head pressure in the sink water above just might turn into a golden bb example. I got going on this.....if the heater drains faster than the vented air can keep up the vacuum increases and with that in mind..if the drain has more column of water weight exerting gravity force down..I'm wondering if the strainer restriction and head pressure could starve the drain from equalized pressure. I'll humbly admit wrong if there is no merit to this.
> 
> In any case, I sent off the question and a drawing to a fluid engineer in Ohio..LMNO engineering, a guy named Ken Edwards and he said he'd look at it. He has a couple short videos of basic experiments involving friction loss to help hawk his software: at this link http://www.lmnoeng.com/Video/index.shtml
> 
> ...


A restriction will regulate the flow but will not stop it.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Hey Redwood does this look familar? :whistling2:

Author: *e-plumber (NY)* 
It's an illegal connection because the trap weir is higher than the vent fitting, it could be considered a 'partial' s-trap and inspector would fail it. 

Author: *redwood (CT)* 
E-Plumber finally borrows one of my pics after I've been stealing his for years...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Did you have a point in posting that or something?



OldSchool said:


> Hey Redwood does this look familar? :whistling2:
> 
> Author: *e-plumber (NY)*
> It's an illegal connection because the trap weir is higher than the vent fitting, it could be considered a 'partial' s-trap and inspector would fail it.
> ...


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Protech said:


> Did you have a point in posting that or something?


Yah why? Did you have a point to replying?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Ya, that quote seems to be totally irrelevant to the current conversation.



OldSchool said:


> Yah why? Did you have a point to replying?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Yes, Old School

Like I said I know about venting and how to do it properly...

My work is vented properly and probably the least used part on my entire truck is a cheater vent!

I assume that you would agree that a sani-tee should be used on a dirty arm and not a combo or, wye and street 45...:whistling2:

I also know that a drain not draining is clogged in almost every circumstance except with the few exceptions that I have mentioned before in this thread numerous times...

It is a clogged drain not a clogged vent...

*And your point is?*:whistling2:


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

*What!*



Redwood said:


> Really that is a bit of news to me...:whistling2:
> 
> A drain siphoning can do very nicely especially if it has a bit of fall to it...:yes:
> 
> ...


I did a job Saturday morning. Lady says " tub has been draining slow and bubbles, toilet also" . First thing that came to mind was vent. Went in back yard to look at vent and there were two flashings coming out of house. One had pipe sticking up and the other was just flashing. So at that point I asked the HO " did you know about that". She replied " yes, the roofer moved the vent to another one when they put on new roof abou 6 months ago". I asked her if it had always did the slow draining , or was it recently. She said now that she thinks about it that it had been ever since the roofers re-did her roof. I went in the attic and the vent had been pushed down, not re-ran. It had formed a trap and had backfall .over time it had rained and it was full of water. I put on a new flashing and lifted the vent, correcting fall back to the fixture served. Went to tub and it drained fine, toilet as well.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

justin said:


> I did a job Saturday morning. Lady says " tub has been draining slow and bubbles, toilet also" . First thing that came to mind was vent. Went in back yard to look at vent and there were two flashings coming out of house. One had pipe sticking up and the other was just flashing. So at that point I asked the HO " did you know about that". She replied " yes, the roofer moved the vent to another one when they put on new roof abou 6 months ago". I asked her if it had always did the slow draining , or was it recently. She said now that she thinks about it that it had been ever since the roofers re-did her roof. I went in the attic and the vent had been pushed down, not re-ran. It had formed a trap and had backfall .over time it had rained and it was full of water. I put on a new flashing and lifted the vent, correcting fall back to the fixture served. Went to tub and it drained fine, toilet as well.


So would you like to add the rest of the story?

Sewer or, septic?
House trap?
Condition of the line? 

I've seen a few line where a vent masked drain problems...
Until the pipe finally filled to where it could be seen?

I'm Just Saying...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

<<<<<<is up on his roof installing expansion plugs in his VTRs. Some people just need a bit more to get the message across.........

Video link to follow....


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Protech said:


> <<<<<<is up on his roof installing expansion plugs in his VTRs. Some people just need a bit more to get the message across.........
> 
> Video link to follow....


Can I write the narration right now?:whistling2:

And the water still drained:laughing:

That's all folks!:yes:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

My experience over the years has overwhelmingly pointed to drain..get into septic country and you have to be aware of the lack of air---on the drain side. I find it useful to know what some things cant be in troubleshooting and a little physics or electrical can point that out and save wasted brain time. If the flow of air is free in the drain line gravity flow will happen..upstream vent not an issue. This is the main crux of the original discussion. Any anomolies have to be looked at but the basic flow principles will be a guidepost. Thats why I understand and side with Red on this. 

Some of the advanced hydraulics and fluid stuff is hairy..even the basic stuff. But each situation somebody has faced has to be traced back to the science principles and I personally want to understand it that way. A little like the thread on getting to the root...that I made fun of. Knowing an s trap works will eliminate so much time vent hunting when it would be better served drain hunting. There may be some weird issues from time to time but its best to eliminate the drain which causes almost all the problems faced.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

*After reading this thread*

I'd say it's a clogged vent, which is clogging the drain. Add drain chemicals and call in the morning. :thumbsup:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Video link:





 




 




 


:whistling2:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

It's Magic! :laughing::thumbup:

Thanks Protech for the video!:thumbup:

Looks like things were draining nicely without vents...

Whodda Thunk!:whistling2:


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

:laughing: Protech, your wife must think ur nuts, on the roof at midnight plugging vents!


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

She walked out on the back porch and asked wtf I was doing.

Me: Making a video. I'm arguing with some people on the internet about plumbing.

Her: <disgruntled tone> Oh great, you're going to be up all night aren’t you?

:laughing:



pauliplumber said:


> :laughing: Protech, your wife must think ur nuts, on the roof at midnight plugging vents!


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I'm the plumber that gets called out, months/years later when the new construction plumber was too lazy or forgot to pull the caps off the roof vents. 

It will go for an extremely long time before everything comes to a point where people start having issues.


Here's what I find: 


All drain piping, horizontal, vertical or any degree of slope has a covering of waste that perfectly encrustates the pipe, just like those crosscut pictures of drains where the entire pipe's surface is narrowing.

This is through inspection of any cleanout in a structure affected or cut into any drain line where the piping system has sealed off venting.

Nothing is relevant to the short term, but long term is where the chronic drain issues start cropping up.

You'll know this as a drain cleaner that any drain lacking a vent will be a drain you'll be working on far more for maintenance than any drain that is properly vented.

In KY our codes are designed to follow maximum flow rates when the discussion of DFU's are determined for fixtures. Very opposite of other codes in other states in relation to plumbing because the majority follow minimum.

Many plumbers from other states criticize our code for being so complex, but in reality in a residential home, there's only $100 more material into the mix. More labor, but if you're a plumber you shouldn't be afraid of more work. 

Add up the total area of any piping system and you'll have more than enough to flush a fixture. 

But, I've cleared main stacks where they reduced down to 1.5" galvanized that were packed with leaves, and the nearby toilet would not flush until opened. Every scenario has its own set of circumstance...


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

To add a little suspense I got my 1st response:


Ken,
Looked at your drawing. I need a few clarifications:
Your dwg looks like the pipe is flowing full all the way from the sink to a few inches below the 90 degree bend. Is that correct?
Is the pipe from the strainer to the trap flowing full? Looks like it is in your drawing, but I wouldn't expect it to be.
Is the pipe from the trap to the 90 degree bend flowing full? Looks like it is in your drawing, but I wouldn't expect this to be full either.
With those clarifications, I can better help. Thanks,
Ken
Ken Edwards, Ph.D., P.E.

I don’t know in reality. There is a lock up situation and the assumption is that the drain further down the line has atmospheric pressure and poses no complication. If air blocks would cause a choke condition that would still make my point. I said full to create the water glass scenario that stops flow, and all to try and justify this reported condition.

He said he would calculate some pressures and get back to me. Take about an hour..I said "take your time"...


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

Redwood said:


> So would you like to add the rest of the story?
> 
> Sewer or, septic?
> House trap?
> ...


 Sewer, no house trap, excellent condition . House built in 98.
Did flow test and was perfect.


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## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

The ho usually asks what kind of drain opener is good??Sell him some bio-clean (it cant hurt) then ho tells you they usually clean out the vent ( IN THEIR MIND YOU ARE JUST CLEANING THE VENT I GUESS) ,I used to grab my mid-sized machine and head to the roof, it was the quickest way when I was YOUNGER = fill both sides of sink let the customer watch until the water goes down @ then tell him to turn it on wide open until you get your cable out (ca ble washed off too) I only go to roof now when it is a long line that takes my 100' 3/8 cable,(MID SIZED -MYTANA that I can easily take apart and take it up in 2 pieces) the little 1/4 inch 50ft on my little gorlitz gets most sinks ,lavs,and tubs and I can run water while cable is turning.Like most of you I hate chemicals too esp when some newlywed pours a whole can of crystal drano or red devil lye in sink and only a cup or so of water ,it sets up harder than cement ,after pulling the trap all you see is a SOLID glob of drano


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

justin said:


> Did flow test and was perfect.


What flow rate and how long?

Did you camera the line to verify no problems?

I have seen plenty of new lines with problems especially settling problems making bellies and misaligned joints.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Really guys you need some ammo at least as credible as what Protech provided...:whistling2:

Why not just get out there working and when you come up with one for real, go all out to prove us wrong...

Video proof of the not draining and your vent fix with a camera inspection of the line to show it's not blocked, having no line defect or, sealed container.

Bring some good evidence back and prove us wrong...


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## Plumbducky (Jun 12, 2010)

I call a plugged drain, doesn't matter that it was cabled. I have seen it before where the plug collapses as you go past it. Run water and cable it till it runs good. In 13 years I have only seen 1 vent cause a slow drain.


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## kenneth (Jul 3, 2010)

Why would anyone want to waste their time trying to argue with idiots?:thumbsup: Clogged vents "DO" slow drains. Anyone that needs PROOF of this BASIC fact probably thinks that " If someone farts in a different room theres no way it could've stunk, because I didn't smell it." Justin I've seen many houses that had slow tubs and sinks that bubble in the toilet and drain SLOWLY, and whoodda thunk it... The drain was clogged..
:whistling2:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

kenneth said:


> Why would anyone want to waste their time trying to argue with idiots?:thumbsup: Clogged vents "DO" slow drains. Anyone that needs PROOF of this BASIC fact probably thinks that " If someone farts in a different room theres no way it could've stunk, because I didn't smell it." Justin I've seen many houses that had slow tubs and sinks that bubble in the toilet and drain SLOWLY, and whoodda thunk it... The drain was clogged..
> :whistling2:


It's simple Kenny...

We're not Idiots...

But in 13 posts I've formulated an opinion on who just might be an Idiot...:whistling2:

Wanna chat? Hellgore is in there waiting on you...:laughing:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

We have venting issues from time to time. Usually on MH's on septic that have no vents or malfunction of AV,s. We had one 2 weeks ago that had a toilet that would not drain properly,and a second bath that they had not used the WC in 2 yrs because it would not drain. Upon a through examination by my expert staff a vent was deemed necessary and thus added. The proof is that the shioters work and I have a deposit slip.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Rick,
MH on septic?
House trap?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Rick,
> MH on septic?
> House trap?


Roger on the septic, all over the area here'

Negative on the house trap, illegal here.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

slickrick said:


> Roger on the septic, all over the area here'
> 
> Negative on the house trap, illegal here.


Yep!
The septic tank needs a vent or the water no go in...
Zackly like I said....

Yea I wasn't sure about house traps where you were...
I know some places require them on MH parks in case one ever puts it's wheels on and leaves...:laughing:

Thank you sir!:thumbup:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Yep!
> The septic tank needs a vent or the water no go in...
> Zackly like I said....
> 
> ...


 
In your area do you put in a house trap and vent on the exterior? I looked into it while I was inspecting but there is not 1 within 100 mi. of us.


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Really guys you need some ammo at least as credible as what Protech provided...:whistling2:
> 
> Why not just get out there working and when you come up with one for real, go all out to prove us wrong...
> 
> ...


i'd rather wipe my ass with sand cloth( mesh kind only, than waste an hour of labor on my sewer machine, and camera.
Why would I waste my time to prove myself right? Come on red wood, are you really a plumber or just a hacker? In Texas you could actually be required to retest for comments like you have been making. Take your argument to a continuing Ed. Class ( if you know what that is) and see if you don't get made the laughing stock of the class. No hard feelings man, you'll learn in time . Good try though.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

justin said:


> i'd rather wipe my ass with sand cloth( mesh kind only, than waste an hour of labor on my sewer machine, and camera.
> Why would I waste my time to prove myself right? Come on red wood, are you really a plumber or just a hacker? In Texas you could actually be required to retest for comments like you have been making. Take your argument to a continuing Ed. Class ( if you know what that is) and see if you don't get made the laughing stock of the class. No hard feelings man, you'll learn in time . Good try though.


Well Justin...

Here in Ct if you were taking a license test and you stated the purpose of a fixture vent was for anything other than protecting the trap seal you would have a wrong answer marked.:laughing:

I've been in this a couple of years now probably since before you were born...

I stand by what I say!:whistling2:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I agree with RW and The Kid. On a closed system, (which a "belly" in a line trapping water would act the same) there would be a positive pressure issue with no venting. Otherwise the vents protect the trap seal and would not prevent the water from draining.


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## rex (Jun 13, 2008)

last new house i plumbed i vented a bathroom group with a AAV ....stubbed drain in wall with 90 into cabinet with the plans to use a san t on back with AAV for got i vented it that way....so i only used a bag trap and no AAV and after flushin toilet and runnin sink or shower there was a bad gurrgel and when you didnt flush the toilet and ran the lav the sh!ter trap would be sucked dry.....dont know what that proves as either way i dont give a fuk ....

only reason i used a AAV was all plumbing was on outside wall and there was a double joist sittin on top plate and i was lazy and didnt feel like rerouting vent all over so im a hack and dont care....cut in san t and the bathroom group drain fine


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

slickrick said:


> In your area do you put in a house trap and vent on the exterior? I looked into it while I was inspecting but there is not 1 within 100 mi. of us.


We have pretty much every configuration you could imagine...
Most areas don't have them but some places they are still required even on new construction.

We have them exposed in basements, in slabs vented through side walls and through the roof.

We have them outside vented outside, and my favorite buried somewhere out in the yard with a vent sticking up that goes down a couple of feet to an elbow then takes off 30' across the yard to a trap who knows where...

All we know is the trap vent connects within about 2 feet of the trap on the house side.

This pic I made years ago show some of the possible configurations...

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/outsidecleanoutconfigurations.jpg


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## Christina (Jul 14, 2009)

slickrick said:


> *We have venting issues from time to time*. Usually on MH's on septic that have no vents or malfunction of AV,s. We had one 2 weeks ago that had a toilet that would not drain properly,and a second bath that they had not used the WC in 2 yrs because it would not drain. Upon a through examination by my expert staff a vent was deemed necessary and thus added. The proof is that the shioters work and I have a deposit slip.


_Well bull!! I wanted to practice my venting issues and share with everyone my inability to properly vent... dang it!! Wrong kind of venting!!_


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I just find it funny that some of these guys have failed to learn from the Dead Men...

Consider these excerpts...







































This isn't anything new I'm telling you....

This has been known for many years and this knowledge was passed down to us by those long gone...

Somewhere your education in the field of plumbing has failed to teach you the basic principles of plumbing....

I'd suggest to some of you rather than sit there looking at the same old ads and the same old rehashed be a franchise articles in todays trade magazines go way back and learn the basics from the Dead Men...

We may not use crown vents, drum traps, and wipe lead anymore...
But the principles remain constant....

It's been going downhill since the Romans built the Aqueduct and some things never will change...:whistling2:

Excerpts taken from:


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## Christina (Jul 14, 2009)

*Sorry, I am agreeing with Redwood...*

The purpose of venting is to *protect the trap seal of each trap*. The vents are designed to maintain maximum differential pressures at each trap to less than 1" of water column. Pressure fluctuations are created by waste flow in the drainage system. Venting is not intended to provide for the ciculation of air within the drainage system. It here were no traps in a drainage system, venting would not be required. The system would funtion adequately because it would be open to the atmosphere at the fixture connections, thereby allowing airflow... 

...Venting *protects every trap* against the loss of trap seal....
From: 1997 IPCC


*901.2 Trap seal protection.* The plumbing system shall be provided with a system of vent piping that will *permit admission or emission of air so that the seal of any fixture trap shall not be subjected to pneumatic pressure differential of more than 1" of water column*.
From: 2003 IPC

_Now, I don't have any of the new books with me, can't look it up right now in the 2009 IPC. I have seen a few good arguments in here on possible, not probable conditions that even I have seen occur. I would frown on any of our plumbers using a chemical- if they wanted chemicals to be used the customer could have; 1) done it themselves, or 2) they have probably already did it. I don't know about you; but I have been told several times "we put some stuff down there the other night to try to get it to drain". Do you want to play the guessing game at what you are going to mix with 'some stuff'? And don't fool yourself, I have had them that do not tell me they used chemicals and have burnt my hands & arms. Just don't believe in the chemical thing when clearing drains..._

... Though I do love using "Santeen Delimer" (Hydrochloric acid) in the area I live. We get alot of calcium, rust, etc build up in water closets here that will completely stop up the jets in a stool in only months, depending on the area and water source. Talk about being able to make a customer smile!! But that is not part of this conversation!

So there is my 2 cents and a bunch of yadda, yadda, yadda... GOOD NIGHT!


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## luv2plumb (Apr 30, 2010)

2000 UPC as it states word for word:

_*901.0 Vents Required*

Each plumbing fixture trap, except as otherwise provided in this Code, shall be protected against siphonage and back-pressure, and air circulation shall be assured throughout all parts of the drainage system by means of vent pipes installed in accordance with the requirements of this chapter and as otherwise required by this Code._

Come on guys this is basic plumbing 101


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

This thread is not a code issue. We are discussing how a blocked vent could cause a slow drain. How these pressures (positive/ negative) effect drainage systems. Plumbing 202.


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## luv2plumb (Apr 30, 2010)

No one ever said it was a code issue I am just backing up what RW had stated earlier. I agree Slick this thread needs to get back on course. I am finding this topic very interesting.


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Well Justin...
> 
> Here in Ct if you were taking a license test and you stated the purpose of a fixture vent was for anything other than protecting the trap seal you would have a wrong answer marked.:laughing:
> 
> ...


I know what the code is. I know what UPC and IPC state, that a vent is to protect trap seals. The whole issue was on a slowing of a drain. I never said it would stop flow., but in some cases it will slow flow. This is not an opinion , it is a fact. Try running a 6' trap arm, stub out to your fixture drain , then stub up with 1.5 tubular to your basket strainer. Make sure that you have a 12" max flanged tailpiece to connect to basket strainer. Now drain and tell me if it isn't slow. You can then go back and revent before 90 stubbing out. Then see if the flow changes. I assure you that it will. 
Dont know man, I just call it like I see it. Vents help flow in CERTAIN circumstances. That's all I'm saying.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

slickrick said:


> This thread is not a code issue. We are discussing how a blocked vent could cause a slow drain. How these pressures (positive/ negative) effect drainage systems. Plumbing 202.





luv2plumb said:


> No one ever said it was a code issue I am just backing up what RW had stated earlier. I agree Slick this thread needs to get back on course. I am finding this topic very interesting.


Exactly Guys!

I knew way back on post #6 when I first made the statement that it would get heated.:whistling2:

I love provoking thought and debate on plumbing subjects. I like the Plumbing 202 reference.

There is no disputing that venting is essential for proper operation of the DWV system. It is also law by being in the plumbing code virtually wherever we are. Some countries are sadly lacking in their venting and use of traps so we get the horrific results like the 2003 outbreak of SARS in China, or expatriots buying beautiful retirement homes in Mexico and Central America that smell like $hiot.:laughing:

The basic thing I'm saying is exactly what is stated in that excerpt from The Dead Mans Bible...



> The stoppage of a trap vent is to be considered far more dangerous than a stoppage of the waste, as the latter makes itself known by the setting back of waste into the fixture, *while the former is seldom known unless the work is taken apart.*


What this is saying is that the drain will operate without a vent. 

There are circumstances that venting will prevent drainage. What I'm saying is you need to go beyond the statement that a vent is causing the stoppage and look for the reason. In many cases the reason is an underlying drain problem that you are failing to diagnose. There are also legitimate reasons such as the venting required on a sealed containment.

The argument that vents are not needed is not being made here, it's a moot point! Vents are needed and required for good reason.

The point being made is "How it works" and what specific cases a lack of vent will cause the drain flow to be impeded. I consider it a rule of thumb that a stopped up drain is almost always a clogged drain and seldom a clogged vent. But yes there are circumstances where a clogged vent or lack of vent can cause an impeded flow in the drain and we should look at the specific situations where this would occur and why.

*It's Plumbing 202 Baby!*:laughing:

Let's Converse!:thumbup:


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## luv2plumb (Apr 30, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Exactly Guys!
> 
> I knew way back on post #6 when I first made the statement that it would get heated.:whistling2:
> 
> ...



:clap:ENCORE:clap:


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I'm going to work on a thread split guys hold tight


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

On 2nd thought not sure were to start a split, will just leave it as is.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I changed the thread name to include venting issues that makes all relevant post come together


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I hope TooSlow snaked that clogged drain...:laughing:


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## luv2plumb (Apr 30, 2010)

You know after re-reading the original post; I had a similar issue in a Barnes and Noble bookstore. After pulling the trap and running a cable down the drain the sink would still drain slow. I took the p-trap off again and shined a light from the sink into the tail-piece. You could hardly see any light coming out the bottom; the stoppage was at the point where the overflow of the sink meets the drain assembly. May not be the issue for Tooslow but it was for me on that call. Everything drained like a champ after that.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Ken,
If there is water completely filling the system from the water surface in the sinks all the way to beyond the 90 degree bend, then the flowrate depends on:
1. elevation change between the water surface in the sink and where the pipe is no longer flowing full (beyond the 90 degree bend on your dwg).
2. pipe diameter
3. fittings (elbow, trap, tee)
4. strainer
One equation for the flow when the strain restriction way exceeds the restrictions due to the elbow, trap, tee, and pipe friction is:
Q=A [2g(z1-z2)/K]^0.5
Q=flowrate, cfs (note 1 cfs=448.8 gpm)
A=pipe cross-sectional area, ft2
g=32.2 ft/s2
z1-z2=elevation of water in sink minus elevation of water in pipe where its pressure is atmospheric, ft.
K=minor loss coefficient for restriction, maybe 200 if highly restrictive.
Other equations could be used to predict the actual area of the restrictions, but the equation I show gives a basic relation between restriction and flow.
I would think if the strainer is highly restrictive, then the suction in the pipe would release resulting in a lower value of z1-z1.
_*Putting in a vent at B would not help the flow if the pipes are flowing full. Since adding a vent at B helped restore flow, something else is going on.*_
Hope that helps!
Ken Edwards (740) 592-1890, [email protected]
The fluid flow calculations website - http://www.LMNOeng.com Hydrology, pipe flow, open channels, flow measurement, groundwater, unit conversions.

ken roche wrote:
> Sorry to nudge,
> 
> I’m curious about the outcome.
> 
> Ken Roche
> 
> Plumbing Now


*Help me interpret this. If a vent at (B.) wont help then there must be something else going on..suggests drain side issues. I ran the formula for 1.5" pipe and using a highly restrictive strainer number of 200 got 5.62 gal/min flow where *
*A of 1.5" pipe is .0122 sq. ft.*
*z1-z2 is 3 ft.*


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Definitely Plumbing 202

Also my thanks to K. Edwards for taking a little time out to respond.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

stillaround said:


> Definitely Plumbing 202
> 
> Also my thanks to K. Edwards for taking a little time out to respond.


Maybe 404.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Sounds like Ken and Ken are in perfect agreement :whistling2:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

There's a lot a Kens poppin up lately...every where you turn just about. Didnt seem all that common when I was a young'n.
I was interested how he thought the water would separate at the strainers instead of hold any suction....just proves the physics..and he also said the vent would do nothing unless there was another problem...down the line I suspect. Anyway it was an instructive thread again..drives it home.

BTW I always knew the water had to flow without a vent if there was air in the line and no restriction. But get going on these vectors on a piece of paper and anything can happen...Also I want to give the benefit as much as possible to some of the scenarios and see if there is any way they " hold water ".:thumbsup:


Also ...I have eaten enough humble pie that the taste no longer bothers me


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

That was definitely a Plumbing 404 answer...:laughing:

But it confirms what some of us already knew...

Thanks for pulling in the big guns on this Stillaround!:thumbup:

I've been thinking some and even a house trap shouldn't be a problem as long as it has the vent properly installed on it and that vent isn't blocked.:whistling2:

A septic tank would have problems as would an ejector pit or laundry tray pump without a vent.

I'm trying to think of additional things that wouldn't work without a vent...

Any ideas?


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Heating of course ..dont know if thats what you meant...circulation stopped because of air pocket


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

stillaround said:


> Heating of course ..dont know if thats what you meant...circulation stopped because of air pocket


Oh jeeze lets stick to simple stuff like drains...:laughing:


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## tooslow (Jul 17, 2009)

This drainage problem is at a Post Office and we gave them a price to rework their san tees and lav traps as they are worn out, I am going to install DWV copper, and at he same time I will snake the drain with plenty of water! I will also have a chance to inspect the vent piping. All this will occur on Monday as we got the go ahead to do the work.

I have enjoyed reading the cat fight verbage about this topic.

Funny no one has mentioned a combination wast and vent system.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

tooslow said:


> This drainage problem is at a Post Office and we gave them a price to rework their san tees and lav traps as they are worn out, I am going to install DWV copper, and at he same time I will snake the drain with plenty of water! I will also have a chance to inspect the vent piping. All this will occur on Monday as we got the go ahead to do the work.
> 
> I have enjoyed reading the cat fight verbage about this topic.
> 
> Funny no one has mentioned a combination wast and vent system.


I look forward to you reporting back with your findings.:thumbup:

BTW sometimes with stuff like this where you have already gone through the line from a disconnected p-trap you might try putting it back together and snaking from the sink trough the trap with a smaller diameter snake that won't break the trap such as a 1/4" snake with a little water in the sink. stir stir stir and watch it go. Then go back below and hit it with the big snake for good measure.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

We have a vacummn sewer systems and how does that change the equation?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Richard Hilliar said:


> We have a vacummn sewer systems and how does that change the equation?


Richard are you in the joint?:laughing:

Seriously bring on your experience...:thumbup:
How would it change things?


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Richard Hilliar said:


> We have a vacummn sewer systems and how does that change the equation?


 
I present to you. Richard Hilliar's shortest post EVER.:laughing:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I am dismayed at the number of licensed plumbers that apparently do not understand venting. But, on the plus side I can see what area of plumbing practice that I should spend more time clarifying to students.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Richard Hilliar said:


> We have a vacummn sewer systems and how does that change the equation?


 Richard, while I was frantically googleing fluid dynamic sites I did see an equation that had notes stating that if the pressure above was the same as beneath nothing changed. Im sure with all those equations theres one to handle delta P.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I am dismayed at the number of licensed plumbers that apparently do not understand venting. But, on the plus side I can see what area of plumbing practice that I should spend more time clarifying to students.


Most dont go thru a school other than hard knocks ( my alma mater). I knew a union plumber that got buried in a shop cutting pipe for high rises for 35 years. When he was with me and we were doing a simple remodel...he asked if there was a special way for the water line to go and confessed he didnt know...he was a nice guy and a person can go years and never face the strange issues enough to have to dig in. And looking at 80 ft. of sewer going to a septic and watching the toilet not flush with an AAV could make a person scratch their head wondering that in 80 ft. of pipe there should be no room for my toilet water.


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## Kevan (Jul 5, 2010)

tooslow said:


> This drainage problem is at a Post Office and we gave them a price to rework their san tees and lav traps as they are worn out


Nothing spoils a plumbing system like a worn out sanitary tee.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

So...

You're saying that all this drain needed was a cheater vent?


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

*drain cleaners*

The proper amount of air is necessary to drive the wastewater in the line to the vacuum station or it will not work


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

wha wha wha wha what?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Richard Hilliar said:


> The proper amount of air is necessary to drive the wastewater in the line to the vacuum station or it will not work


I may need a visual aid on this one.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Vacuum drainage and waste systems have isolated piping at 16 to 18 inches hg...Atmospheric on the one end and suction on the drain end..soooo no vents ( hehehe)..a few check valves. The differential in pressure moves the waste over offsets, up up and away.

I worked on steam vacuum systems in Chicago that had these= thermostsatic traps that would open and drain back..the purpose of the vacuum there was to be able to cook water a little lower temp or btu requirement and save money especially in big buildings. If I remember right 3 lbs vacuum.

www.plumbingengineer.com/may_08/vacuum_feature.php


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Ive also wet vac'd a long electrical conduit a couple hundred feet to suck that little mouse and a string attatched for pulling the wire. No vents


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

And no one can understand why our trade is dying..........



nhmaster3015 said:


> I am dismayed at the number of licensed plumbers that apparently do not understand venting. But, on the plus side I can see what area of plumbing practice that I should spend more time clarifying to students.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I going to chime right back in...

We all know what a vent is for under the plumbing code so that is a mute point.

There is however situations that a vent does assist flow....

Maybe you have never experienced it yet but after my years doing plumbing you come across it. NEVER SAY NEVER.

1. Mostly it is on the configuration of piping. or the restriction in bends.

The water will lock up or slow done. You might say it is because of a blockage but it can and will happen on new plumbing also.

I guess seeing is believing


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> Mostly it is on the configuration of piping. or the restriction in bends.


So What you are saying then if it isn't plumbed right a vent may help it drain....:whistling2:

Does that mean we are finally in agreement?:laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Redwood said:


> So What you are saying then if it isn't plumbed right a vent may help it drain....:whistling2:
> 
> Does that mean we are finally in agreement?:laughing:


Thanks for the quick response RED.

But No thats not what I am saying :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

You have to take into consideration that any given pipe can handle only so many gallon per minute. Agreed?

Now add in some restriction.... Plumbing is to code and it is all down hill from there.

every bend adds restriction... this of coarse will cause the pipe to allow less flow.

It could get to the point where the water just locks up


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> You have to take into consideration that any given pipe can handle only so many gallon per minute. Agreed?
> 
> Now add in some restriction.... Plumbing is to code and it is all down hill from there.
> 
> ...


No it would get to where it flowed slower because of the restriction...

But that said if your pipe was correctly sized the restriction would almost always be at the fixture itself...


Pop up or, Grid drain an a lav...
Basket Strainer Assy on a kitchen sink...
The outlet of the toilet...
The grid or, pop up on a bath tub...
etc. etc. etc.

If your drain pipe work is worse then those examples may I suggest my book?:laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

31 minutes to respond Redwood ..... what you napping???:laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

nice picture of your plumbing by the way....:laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> 31 minutes to respond Redwood ..... what you napping???:laughing:


No I'm Watching Robots on the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico and liking what I'm seeing...:thumbup:

http://www.sanaracreations.fi/rov-feeds/index.html

Prolly won't work with windows 98 and Dial up though...:laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> nice picture of your plumbing by the way....:laughing:


Did you have a response?:laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I have been in situations where the water would come up another fixture.

This was not blockage.... it was do to....to much water entering the pipe at once....

adding a vent rectified the problem...... this could however.... cause the effect of less water going down the drain and therefore water not coming up in the other fixture


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> I have been in situations where the water would come up another fixture.
> 
> This was not blockage.... it was do to....to much water entering the pipe at once....
> 
> adding a vent rectified the problem...... this could however.... cause the effect of less water going down the drain and therefore water not coming up in the other fixture


Yea I've seen that too...

Someone using an incorrect fitting or 2...

I had one where the flush from a Flushmate equipped toilet came out of a floor drain and a lav sink...

There was a tight 90 followed by a belly...:whistling2:

Make sure you use those baffle Tees on those center outlet combination wastes now ya hear!:whistling2:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I make my own waste for kitchen sinks... 2 swivel adaptors..... 90 and ty


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> I make my own waste for kitchen sinks... 2 swivel adaptors..... 90 and ty


I'd like to see a picture of one sometime...

Maybe add it to my book...:laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

i think your book is already full of your own work :laughing:

I am going to start my own book and call it 

*Plumbing out of the Red*


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I hate those cheap continous kitchen waste they sell. Some times they jump the thread on the basket strainer.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> I hate those cheap continous kitchen waste they sell. Some times they jump the thread on the basket strainer.


I use good basket strainers so it doesn't happen...:thumbup:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> I going to chime right back in...
> 
> We all know what a vent is for under the plumbing code so that is a mute point.
> 
> ...


 This was the same premise I started my question and asked the engineer. The answer he gave showed that the lock up would not happen and..the slowing down according to his formula would *never* get to the point of being mistaken for a lock up...in the case of highly restrictive strainers the water would break apart in the drain. 
I thought because a heater draining could slow down to maybe the rate of air release that draining could get near to lock up..but that doesnt mean friction losses in fittings and strainers come close..


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Red/Protech 1, Oldschool 0


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## Kevan (Jul 5, 2010)

Odd things happen in the world of drains. It isn't because we don't know physics; it's because drains are long and narrow and opaque and we cannot see what's happening. We figure that we know what's happening; but when odd things occur, it is a mistake to claim that they aren't occurring just because we think they can't.

I posed a question to the best drain man I've ever known: when you encounter thus-&-such problem, how do you address it? He told me his method and I responded "That's exactly what I do; but what I want to know is, _why does that work?_ He answered "I don't have the slightest idea." We develop some techniques through logic, others through trial-and-error.

The finest engineers at MIT can snow me with equations and pontifications, but I can't get them down to Memphis when a drain is giving me fits. When a vent solves the problem and I can get home in time for supper, so be it.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

So troubleshooting abilities are directly proportioned to how close it is to dinner?

Sounds like.." I dont know why it works, but it does..and I dont know for how long cause I dont understand it,,but I am a plumber..make no mistake"

If you have a snake and a camera you dont need much above the neck....takes longer though.

Why would the finest engineers at MIT want to pontificate to you or snow you...a little predisposition there.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

If a drain is configured in such a way as to lock-up....due to friction ect..no vent installed will help. If in a reasonably normal piping configuration a vent installed helps...then its because of blockage or some other containment that blocked air release..*on the discharge side.* If that is too much a stretch for you Kevan to accept..blindly....then carry on and do it your way....
I for one am impressed and respect a working mind. Archimedes discovered bouyancy and the water screw....and compound pulley....


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

It would seem to me that the statements made in all these arguments cannot be used as blanket statements. A lack of vent can slow flow . . . sometimes. There are so man variables that affect the hydraulics that there are probably quite a number of problems and solutions. I know that I have seen a lot of puzzles that I had to solve. 

If both the sink and toilet gurgle when you run water in the sink, I start cleaning the main drain. (Especially if water comes up in the tub . . .)

But it could depend on whether the installer put the santee in upside down, if the pipes grade properly, how long the trap arm or drain is, the sizing of the vents, and so on.

A sewage sump that is connected to a closet vent will siphon the water right out of that closet because it's pulling air very fast, even though the closet is otherwise properly vented.

If you're draining a water heater on a second floor, and run the hose out through a window, it will drain far more quickly than if it's on the first floor. One assumes that drains work the same way. If there's a slight clog and the water is building up further down the line, there's no vent, then the flow of water would necessarily be limited to what can pass through the strainers. Add a vent and the water can get away more quickly, but you still have the problem that the water can't pass through the strainers any faster. Very confusing.

However, add the siphonage to the mix, and you would think that the water would actually flow more quickly without a vent!

Toilets are supposed to be siphonage fixtures. But run the arm uphill to the vent so it stays full and the toilet just won't flush. Drop the tee so that the arm is level and it flushes like crazy.

What I'm saying is that there are just a lot of different scenarios and what fixes one won't fix the other.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

How about adding suds to the mix...still..the physics will find you out. Its not a mystery that a person cant take their brain out of mothballs to understand. 
A slug of water will flow through a pipe at gravitational accelleration less pipe friction and fitting friction. The flow can be estimated very accurately by "formulas" if there is the same pressure above and below the water. If the pressure is different that also can be figured accurately. If there is atmospheric pressure above and below then no vents are necessary and neither would they alter the flow...anyone been listening to this. This "its a mystery because I can't grasp it stuff" is a call to further investigation and not a call for a mental " lets close shop" attitude. Jeesh.
In order to solve a problem completely you need to understand it.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

In Fla. you can wet vent a toilet. So if a washing machine ties into that line and suds run across the 3 inch combo should it bubble the toilet. Their toilet bubbled and the real issue was that it was a septic tank that when the suds filled the lin it cut off access to other vents and had limited air to the tank anyway...a combined effect...best understood if the basic physics was part of the answer...instead of "dont use so much Wisk", and drilling a hole in the cleanout plug.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

It amazes me that the topic of venting has so many of you debating back and forth. Venting must be the least understood aspect of this trade. I was diagnosing a poorly flushing toilet one day in a mobile home, it was at a stable/ horse farm, not the typical mobile home. I looked at the jets under the rim, they weren't plugged; I looked in the tank, enough water going from tank to bowl. I went under trailer and saw a 2 inch drain line to the lav sink was backpitched (band iron strap broke). This line being backpitched was holding water from lav drain which was effectively cutting off vent of w/c. When I properly pitched the 2 inch drain line, poof! the toilet flushed fine. That 2 inch drain line was venting the bathroom group. Don't tell me a clogged vent has no effect on a fixture draining, that's bull. :no:

BTW I'll check back in a week, when this thread is at post number 500 or so. I'm sure the debat will still be going....and going... and going... I think some of you like to see yourselves talk.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I'd like you to explain how an AAV would help a toilet flush seeing as how it only lets air into the line and not out.



Tommy plumber said:


> It amazes me that the topic of venting has so many of you debating back and forth. Venting must be the least understood aspect of this trade. I was diagnosing a poorly flushing toilet one day in a mobile home, it was at a stable/ horse farm, not the typical mobile home. I looked at the jets under the rim, they weren't plugged; I looked in the tank, enough water going from tank to bowl. I went under trailer and saw a 2 inch drain line to the lav sink was backpitched (band iron strap broke). This line being backpitched was holding water from lav drain which was effectively cutting off vent of w/c. When I properly pitched the 2 inch drain line, poof! the toilet flushed fine. That 2 inch drain line was venting the bathroom group. Don't tell me a clogged vent has no effect on a fixture draining, that's bull. :no:
> 
> BTW I'll check back in a week, when this thread is at post number 500 or so. I'm sure the debat will still be going....and going... and going... I think some of you like to see yourselves talk.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> It amazes me that the topic of venting has so many of you debating back and forth. Venting must be the least understood aspect of this trade. I was diagnosing a poorly flushing toilet one day in a mobile home, it was at a stable/ horse farm, not the typical mobile home. I looked at the jets under the rim, they weren't plugged; I looked in the tank, enough water going from tank to bowl. I went under trailer and saw a 2 inch drain line to the lav sink was backpitched (band iron strap broke). This line being backpitched was holding water from lav drain which was effectively cutting off vent of w/c. When I properly pitched the 2 inch drain line, poof! the toilet flushed fine. That 2 inch drain line was venting the bathroom group. *Don't tell me a clogged vent has no effect on a fixture draining, that's bull. :no:*
> 
> BTW I'll check back in a week, when this thread is at post number 500 or so. I'm sure the debat will still be going....and going... and going... I think some of you like to see yourselves talk.


 This does get old but I'm willing to help you Tommy because others are willing to help me and have helped.
Why, Why, Why...does the clogged vent have an effect on that fixture flow. 
Is it going to a septic tank???
Is it going to an ejector pit or tank???
Isnt it because there is a lack of air flow at the discharge end?
If you say its a clear drain with airflow at the end...then you are mistaken.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

stillaround said:


> This does get old but I'm willing to help you Tommy because others are willing to help me and have helped.
> Why, Why, Why...does the clogged vent have an effect on that fixture flow.
> Is it going to a septic tank???
> Is it going to an ejector pit or tank???
> ...


 
I know w/ vent back-pitched and holding water, w/c didn't flush. When I raised drain and properly pitched it, then w/c flushed fine. I don't study the mechanics of venting like an engineer, but I know what I saw. I have and open mind, maybe I'm missing something. I'm all ears.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Was the horse barn going to a septic tank? Septic tanks rarely have air flow and especially a horse barn, possibly being the only bathroom group on it...then the air wont displace on the discharge side and a vent would be needed to allow air to drain. This is one of the main points...that the plumber should always be aware of the drain side issues...air or no air, blockage or belly. Then if it was city sewer and the vent made a difference, youd know you have some drainside issues still to contend with.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

stillaround said:


> Was the horse barn going to a septic tank? Septic tanks rarely have air flow and especially a horse barn, possibly being the only bathroom group on it...then the air wont displace on the discharge side and a vent would be needed to allow air to drain. This is one of the main points...that the plumber should always be aware of the drain side issues...air or no air, blockage or belly. Then if it was city sewer and the vent made a difference, youd know you have some drainside issues still to contend with.


 
I'm pretty certain it was well and septic. There are no city sewers in that part of municipality, it was rural. This call was back in like 2001 or 2002 I think.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

We did a job several years ago in Elmhurst,Il.

100 year old house that had a kitchen pantry converted to a powder room in the '50's. 4" cast waste and 1 1/2" lav waste. No vent on either, EXCEPT, a 3/4" piece of galv. water pipe extending horizontally to outside wall (about 2') and terminating outside with a 45 ( below the 4"san. tee in basement).

After 50 years the nipple had rusted shut and toilet didn't flush. Cleaned out nipple with coat hanger (for ****s and grins), presto, toilet flushes.

Cover end of nipple with thumb, no flush.:no:

That about summed it up for me.

Julias Bilanco (sp.) I think had an article in P.M. about an experimental house in Kohler, Wisc. that wwas vented with a single 1" pvc pipe. I'll have to look for it.

What this has to do with the thread I don't really know :blink: but maybe it's the 96 deg. heat outside.

My .02


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

PLUMB TIME said:


> We did a job several years ago in Elmhurst,Il.
> 
> 100 year old house that had a kitchen pantry converted to a powder room in the '50's. 4" cast waste and 1 1/2" lav waste. No vent on either, EXCEPT, a 3/4" piece of galv. water pipe extending horizontally to outside wall (about 2') and terminating outside with a 45.
> 
> ...


 

I've seen Julius Balanco on a crime TV show. He was introduced as a forensic plumbing investigator on the show. He seems pretty knowledgable. I was told in a code class once by teacher that for an average size single-family home, half-inch size vent would work fine. But ofcourse code permits 1 1/4" as smallest vent.


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## braindead (May 29, 2010)

*Vent Line*



Tommy plumber said:


> I've seen Julius Balanco on a crime TV show. He was introduced as a forensic plumbing investigator on the show. He seems pretty knowledgable. I was told in a code class once by teacher that for an average size single-family home, half-inch size vent would work fine. But ofcourse code permits 1 1/4" as smallest vent.


I'll put my 2 cents in, it used to be in one jurisdition in Maryland they would allow a 1/2in. vent ( I don't think that is still in effect ), Just info. :blink:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Then how do you explain this ?



PLUMB TIME said:


> We did a job several years ago in Elmhurst,Il.
> 
> 100 year old house that had a kitchen pantry converted to a powder room in the '50's. 4" cast waste and 1 1/2" lav waste. No vent on either, EXCEPT, a 3/4" piece of galv. water pipe extending horizontally to outside wall (about 2') and terminating outside with a 45 ( below the 4"san. tee in basement).
> 
> ...


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## oldkado (Jul 15, 2010)

*tooslow*

There are many technical experts giving good replies, and to them I would like to add the simple and possibly and overlooked answer. Are the holes in the strainer too small to allow the water to flow quickly, or if it is a pop-up perhaps not enough clearance.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Protech said:


> Red/Protech 1, Oldschool 0


the current score

Red/Protech 1, Oldschool 4 :laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> the current score
> 
> Red/Protech 1, Oldschool 4 :laughing:


The math is fuzzy just like the grey between the ears...:laughing:

You've got some splainin to do if if you think you have any points...:whistling2:

Cause you've been body slammed...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

PLUMB TIME said:


> We did a job several years ago in Elmhurst,Il.
> 
> 100 year old house that had a kitchen pantry converted to a powder room in the '50's. 4" cast waste and 1 1/2" lav waste. No vent on either, EXCEPT, a 3/4" piece of galv. water pipe extending horizontally to outside wall (about 2') and terminating outside with a 45 ( below the 4"san. tee in basement).
> 
> ...


So you didn't look any further to see why?:whistling2:

Because there is something else going on...


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Redwood said:


> The math is fuzzy just like the grey between the ears...:laughing:...


Now thats my Guru....:laughing:

always quick witted :laughing:


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Redwood said:


> So you didn't look any further to see why?:whistling2:
> 
> Because there is something else going on...


Red,

That was more than twenty years ago.At the time I/we just thought it was interesting and didn't go much further due to the fact it was all coming out.

I won't debate the laws of physics (cause I can't:no or why sometimes things happen we can't explain.We saw,we observed. That was it.:yes:

Actually,I think a new thread on faith and believing in things we can't see or prove may be a good thread.:whistling2::laughing:


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

i dont know if its been said , and i am not gonna go back and read the 20 pages.
Why does a water heater drain go from 0-60 when you take off a heater flex, break a union or pull on the t&p valve. Is that a venting issue:whistling2:just curious. Do vents help the flow of water? how is that different than a laundry tray dumping in a floor sink. do i need to run my sewer machine in the boiler drain? :blink: 
just curious.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

justin said:


> i dont know if its been said , and i am not gonna go back and read the 20 pages.
> Why does a water heater drain go from 0-60 when you take off a heater flex, break a union or pull on the t&p valve. Is that a venting issue:whistling2:just curious. Do vents help the flow of water? how is that different than a laundry tray dumping in a floor sink. do i need to run my sewer machine in the boiler drain? :blink:
> just curious.


That would be the finger over the straw argument, which doesn't apply because fixtures do not have sealed covers and are open to atmospheric pressure.

You would need to run your snake wherever the clog is.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

I have been on calls in trailer homes that use the mechanical vents that had clogged kitchen sinks. 

First time I came across this I never knew what a mechanical vent was and did not notice this sink had one installed. The sink line was 80' long before it reached the 4" line. I rodded it with my Spartan 100 13/32" cable by 100' long. Put the trap back on ran the water sink fills up. So I am thinking sludge blockage. I rodded it a few more times and still would not drain. So I get under the sink more to see if maybe there is a clean out on the exposed vent pipe, or if there was room to cut one in, so I can run water while rodding in hopes to break up the sludge. I noticed the pipe stopped a few inches above the bowl in the back and had this funny looking black cap on it. So as I unscrewed this black cap, I hear the sink drain down... it just didn't drain it roared on the way down. Then I read the writing on the top of this thing to learn it was a mechanical vent and the rubber was stuck which was not allowing the sink to properly vent.

So to say a sink will drain better with a vent is not always true.


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

Redwood said:


> That would be the finger over the straw argument, which doesn't apply because fixtures do not have sealed covers and are open to atmospheric pressure.
> 
> You would need to run your snake wherever the clog is.


that was a joke , but thanks . i new you would be the first one to respond. no harm intended


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## kenneth (Jul 3, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> I have been on calls in trailer homes that use the mechanical vents that had clogged kitchen sinks.
> 
> First time I came across this I never knew what a mechanical vent was and did not notice this sink had one installed. The sink line was 80' long before it reached the 4" line. I rodded it with my Spartan 100 13/32" cable by 100' long. Put the trap back on ran the water sink fills up. So I am thinking sludge blockage. I rodded it a few more times and still would not drain. So I get under the sink more to see if maybe there is a clean out on the exposed vent pipe, or if there was room to cut one in, so I can run water while rodding in hopes to break up the sludge. I noticed the pipe stopped a few inches above the bowl in the back and had this funny looking black cap on it. So as I unscrewed this black cap, I hear the sink drain down... it just didn't drain it roared on the way down. Then I read the writing on the top of this thing to learn it was a mechanical vent and the rubber was stuck which was not allowing the sink to properly vent.
> 
> So to say a sink will drain better with a vent is not always true.


I love to hear stuff like that.. it just proves a point.. thank you. (no sarcasm promise.)


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

kenneth said:


> I love to hear stuff like that.. it just proves a point.. thank you. (no sarcasm promise.)


Point it proved to me is why Illinois does not allow AAV's and mechanical vents.


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## kenneth (Jul 3, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> Point it proved to me is why Illinois does not allow AAV's and mechanical vents.


i agree that they suck, i can't stand studder vents. they only remit air, and vents should emit and remit air


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Yeah, it's really bad when they omit.

Ba dump bump.

:laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

kennifer said:


> I love to hear stuff like that.. it just proves a point.. thank you. (no sarcasm promise.)


Yea it proves something further down the line is creating a closed container type of situation that required the removal of the AAV to allow the outward flow of air from the line...

Exactly what we will never know because the poster didn't investigate further to determine the real problem...

Given the fact that it was a tin house on wheels virtually anything is possible...:whistling2:


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Yea it proves something further down the line is creating a closed container type of situation that required the removal of the AAV to allow the outward flow of air from the line...
> 
> Exactly what we will never know because the poster didn't investigate further to determine the real problem...
> 
> Given the fact that it was a tin house on wheels virtually anything is possible...:whistling2:


The line further down the line was spotless considering I rodded it multiple times with the 13/32 cable with an 1 1/2 C cutter on it. I did go under the trailer, to look for clean outs, seen proper pitch and all the fittings where proper. I still do work for this elderly lady, she has not had a problem ever with a blockage. She does have problems with the mechanical vents failing. I did replace them with AAV's but they have failed in time as well.

I think the issue is the lack of vent and the length of the drain. So when the AAV fails with the developed length its like holding your finger over the the end of a straw. I did fail to mention if I ran the water nice and slow with the failed AAV in place it drained fine, but when I filled the sink, it would not drain.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> So when the AAV fails with the developed length its like holding your finger over the the end of a straw. I did fail to mention if I ran the water nice and slow with the failed AAV in place it drained fine, but when I filled the sink, it would not drain.


No! The finger over the straw argument does not apply in the situation you describe because the top of the sink is open to atmospheric pressure...

However, something which you deny existing can create the situation where air needs to escape from the line for drainage to occur and that would be a blockage or, draining to a sealed container...

Similar to the situation where I received the late night call from the tech telling me the line is clear and in order for the line to drain the clean out plug had to be left off the line in order for water to leave the house trap....

The line was clogged and he needed to snake it clear. I had no need to go there with a camera the next day to see for myself the line was clogged. But the idiot made me waste my time doing so...:whistling2:

Yup it was clogged alright!

10 - 15 foot down the line the camera was under water and I spent several hours battling heavy roots to the city line...:whistling2:

The line was still flowing slightly through the roots and the running water wouldn't have made it up to the clean out where he could see it at least in the volume he was using, but put the plug in and that line was air-bound.

Gravity while some make it out to be very complex is actually a very simple thing and it works.

Something is stopping the flow and the vent is only masking the symptom.

We can have this circular argument for weeks but I can't tell you from here what the problem was on your job and you didn't look far enough into the problem to find it...:whistling2:


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## kenneth (Jul 3, 2010)

la-tee-dah


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Plumbus said:


> Good venting, as well as positive trap seal, is *critical to waste flow,* nowhere more so than at this catchall plumbing workhorse.


Not really....

But you sure need it to protect the trap seal....


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Not really....
> 
> But you sure need it to protect the trap seal....


And unstop the drain.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Plumbus said:


> When the arteries start to harden, as they always will at the kitchen sink, and the channel shrinks, the equilibrium provided by a proper vent becomes more and more critical.


Ah.... But then that is a clogged drain that was detrimental to the waste flow and not the need for a good vent....:thumbup:

Other than flowing into a sealed container such as a sewage ejector pit can you tell me anywhere a vent is essential to maintaining the flow of a drain?

Unvented drains do indeed flow quite well in fact sometimes too well as the trap seal can be lost.
But that is the purpose of a vent....


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> Stacked Tees would fly here as long as you don't have a major over a minor.
> 
> The AAV fails in the State of Louisiana though...


Here we can't even use an AAV but I thought that they needed to extend above the fixture flood level


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> Here we can't even use an AAV but I thought that they needed to extend above the fixture flood level


 





You're correct, they are SUPPOSED to be above the flood rim level of the fixture they serve, but, hey it's Florida after all....:laughing: The 2000 Presidential elections should've removed any lingering doubt about the state...remember that debacle??.... Manual counting of ballots, seniors unsure of whom they voted for... more lawsuits than I care to count


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> Here we can't even use an AAV but I thought that they needed to extend above the fixture flood level


Supposedly, haven't ever installed one. Not code compliant.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Here's a cardboard wrapper of an AAV that's been on my vehicle for years. The picture shows it being installed under a sink. When I workded for another company years ago doing a ton of new construction, I can tell you we installed many of these AAV's. They were all under kit. sinks and lavs. We always passed inspection...:whistling2:


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> Here's a cardboard wrapper of an AAV that's been on my vehicle for years. The picture shows it being installed under a sink. When I workded for another company years ago doing a ton of new construction, I can tell you we installed many of these AAV's. They were all under kit. sinks and lavs. We always passed inspection...:whistling2:


And they worked? Or is the issue that when they fail they will start leaking?


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> And they worked? Or is the issue that when they fail they will start leaking?


 
Oh, they do work. And they will leak. And they will go prrrrrrrrbbbbb every time you drain any volume of water. 






Paul


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

I think that I will never use one thanks


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

rocksteady said:


> Oh, they do work. And they will leak. And they will go prrrrrrrrbbbbb every time you drain any volume of water.
> 
> Paul


I thought it was more like one of these sounds....


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

I have used 2 that I can remember (not counting replacing failed ones that are pre-existing). I could never imagine the need to use one in a new construction scenario but in "budget concious" renovations you end up working within some constraints. TONS of mobile homes have them under the k/s around here but to see them in a foundation home is rare.








Paul


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

In my opinion if you can't afford to properly vent the waste you can't afford a renovation why should we cheapen our work so they can have nicer tile it doesn't make sense to give people an option that hurts the quality of the plumbing and hurts our bottom line


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> You're correct, they are SUPPOSED to be above the flood rim level of the fixture they serve, but, hey it's Florida after all....


 Most of the codes that have approved them for use require they be installed no less than 6" above the inlet of the trap.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> Most of the codes that have approved them for use require they be installed no less than 6" above the inlet of the trap.


 



Mfg. states 4" above trap weir. But if and when there is a backup, potentially bacteria and feces will back up into an AAV; after stoppage is cleared, there is no way to effectively 'clean' that AAV or it's riser. At least with a VTR, rain and other precipitation will 'clean' the vent. Not so with an AAV.

Also of concern, when an AAV goes bad (like anything mechanical) it will allow sewer gas to enter the building. I have been called to homes where the HO complains about a persistent odor in a bathroom. First thing I do is look under the lav sink, and voila! A studor vent (AAV). After replacing, no more objectionable odor.

Seems to me that if the local AHJ really cared about the health and safety of the citizens, they wouldn't have approved these things in the first place.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> Seems to me that if the local AHJ really cared about the health and safety of the citizens, they wouldn't have approved these things in the first place.


Isn't Studor based in Florida? :laughing:

I'm sure at one time they were....


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

AAV's are job security in my opinion when it goes bad its just another service call. No complaints here...:thumbup:


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Ah....
> 
> Other than flowing into a sealed container such as a sewage ejector pit can you tell me anywhere a vent is essential to maintaining the flow of a drain?


Sewer gases have to go somewhere when rushing water displaces them. A sink will drain without a vent, but at a certain flow rate it will clug, clug. In other words, if you hooked up to a sanitary sewer two sinks side by side, one with a vent and one without, filled them both to the brim and opened both drains simultaneously, the vented sink would drain faster. If drained directly into a bucket they would probably perform equally because atmosphere would absorb the displaced gases in the tailpieces. Unvented fixtures do perform adequately, that's why they are allowed by both major codes in certain fixture group piping designs. My point is that they don't perform as well as vented fixtures.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Red, down boy!

Are we really going to have this argument again?!?


----------



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

U666A said:


> Red, down boy!
> 
> Are we really going to have this argument again?!?


Ding ding....


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Isn't Studor based in Florida? :laughing:
> 
> I'm sure at one time they were....


 




Yes, the package I have says, "Dunedin, FL." www.studor.com


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> And they worked? Or is the issue that when they fail they will start leaking?


 




Yes, they work. The idea behind how they work is simple. A little rubber membrane will open to allow air to enter the AAV when a fixture is draining. Then the little rubber membrane closes to seal and prevent sewer gas from escaping. But like all mechanical devices with moving parts, they are prone to one day fail.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Plumbus said:


> Sewer gases have to go somewhere when rushing water displaces them. A sink will drain without a vent, but at a certain flow rate it will clug, clug. In other words, if you hooked up to a sanitary sewer two sinks side by side, one with a vent and one without, filled them both to the brim and opened both drains simultaneously, the vented sink would drain faster. If drained directly into a bucket they would probably perform equally because atmosphere would absorb the displaced gases in the tailpieces. Unvented fixtures do perform adequately, that's why they are allowed by both major codes in certain fixture group piping designs. My point is that they don't perform as well as vented fixtures.


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

I would urge you to spend some time reading at this thread....

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/drain-cleaners-chemical-vents-9307/

It will no doubt prove to be very educational, bear this in mind....


I am in no way saying that vents are not required. (That seemed to be a very strong point that many posters got hung up on)

Vents are very much necessary in a DWV system especially to protect the trap seal. Our health depends on this seal being maintained.

In addition they are a requirement of our plumbing codes and plumbing should always be installed in accordance with the plumbing code.

Now here comes the opening salvo....


In order for a fixture to drain well venting in most cases has no affect on the draining of a fixture.

The only time lack of a vent will cause drainage to slow is if the drain is going into some type of sealed containment where the vent is required to release air to allow the waste water to enter the sealed container.

Most times when a vent appears to provide better drainage and underlying undiagnosed defect is the actual culprit such as a clog or belly in the line which creates a double trap effect.

Unvented drains may actually be faster draining in a situation where there is a tall vertical drop and the siphon effect aids drainage.

*Read the thread!
It's a long one but there is no credible evidence brought forward yet to dispute my claims....
There are many misapplied principles such as the finger over the straw and others....
If you do manage to come up with something which wasn't already beat to death in that thread I'd be happy to discuss it with you....*

Don't pay any attention to them boys getting all excited...
They are just a bunch of sharks circling looking for new signatures they can use....:laughing:


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Ah yes an oldie but goody...:laughing: I just went back and re-read some of those posts in the "Great Venting Debate" thread.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> Ah yes an oldie but goody...:laughing: I just went back and re-read some of those posts in the "Great Venting Debate" thread.


It was unbelievable how many people kept coming back with: 
"You need vents they are required by code." 
The vent is needed to protect the trap seal."
"I can't believe that you would break the law and not put in vents."

Damn I never once said any of those things...:laughing:
I musta said the exact opposite several hundred times...

Then there was the ones that wanted to get to my doorstep and kick my azz...:laughing:

Oh boy here we go again....


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Maybe there will be a re-match for the title....:boxing:

ding ding ding..."In this corner, weighing 218 lbs, with a record of 23 wins, 0 draws and 1 loss, is..........."


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Don't pay any attention to them boys getting all excited...
> They are just a bunch of sharks circling looking for new signatures they can use....:laughing:


Noooo... Not us!


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Red...

Its is a lot different ... running water through a open pipe at both ends
as it is running water through a open end pipe with a ptrap in it.

I am sure you will argue until you are blue in the face... 

Lets take a S trap for example

a straight pipe will drain a lot better than a pipe that turns 180 degs upwards then 180 downwards


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> Red...
> 
> Its is a lot different ... running water through a open pipe at both ends
> as it is running water through a open end pipe with a ptrap in it.
> ...


I had straight pipes on my Triumph Daytona...

I liked them.... The cops didn't....:laughing:

I just got done reading back through that thread...
It's quite a bit shorter since they moderated all the death threats out of it....:laughing:

I still find it funny that no one picked up on that 40% vs. 100% full pipe signature opportunity.... :laughing:

You got lucky there....

It looks like NH Masters YouTube Video got lost or, maybe that was in another thread....
I just found it in another thread to read...
http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/stack-venting-12646/

He had the sinks configured with and without a vent...
The times were close enough that it could be argued that someone pulled the plug faster or, slower....


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Redwood said:


> I had straight pipes on my Triumph Daytona...
> 
> I liked them.... The cops didn't....:laughing:
> 
> ...


 
???? :laughing:

Now about the offsets... you dont think this slows water down?????


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> ???? :laughing:
> 
> Now about the offsets... you dont think this slows water down?????


Friction will always slow flow but it will never stop the flow.

If we are going to reopen debate we should take it back to the old thread rather than be off topic here.

Maybe one of the mods can move these posts to the other thread sorry to the original poster for going off topic...


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Friction will always slow flow but it will never stop the flow.
> 
> If we are going to reopen debate we should take it back to the old thread rather than be off topic here.
> 
> Maybe one of the mods can move these posts to the other thread sorry to the original poster for going off topic...


What you never seen a thread derailed ...

Its the Norm around here


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> What you never seen a thread derailed ...
> 
> Its the Norm around here


Yea...

But this subject has the potential to really derail someones thread....:laughing:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Redwood said:


> I had straight pipes on my Triumph Daytona...
> 
> I liked them.... The cops didn't....:laughing:


 I had 'em on my Norton Commando.

And you're right, cops hated 'em.

How's that for a thread derailment, OS?:laughing:


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

:no:

We have beaten this horse to death. I demand to see a video of your supposed experiment. I'll accept your lack of producing one as an admission of error. 



Plumbus said:


> Sewer gases have to go somewhere when rushing water displaces them. A sink will drain without a vent, but at a certain flow rate it will clug, clug. In other words, if you hooked up to a sanitary sewer two sinks side by side, one with a vent and one without, filled them both to the brim and opened both drains simultaneously, the vented sink would drain faster. If drained directly into a bucket they would probably perform equally because atmosphere would absorb the displaced gases in the tailpieces. Unvented fixtures do perform adequately, that's why they are allowed by both major codes in certain fixture group piping designs. My point is that they don't perform as well as vented fixtures.


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Did I post on this thread? It's 24 pages long and I ain't wading through all of it. Watch these vids if you really believe that a plugged vent will slow a drain (by itself) then you seriously need to break out your old plumbing manuals and re-educate yourselves. :thumbsup:





 




 
The only way a plugged vent will slow a drain is if the drain is also plugged past the vent in which case the column of air in the drain will compress because it has nowhere to go.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Did I post on this thread? It's 24 pages long and I ain't wading through all of it. Watch these vids if you really believe that a plugged vent will slow a drain (by itself) then you seriously need to break out your old plumbing manuals and re-educate yourselves. :thumbsup:
> 
> YouTube - ‪vent or no vent‬‏
> 
> ...


 This reminds me of a demonstration model I made in the early 90's out of clear PVC. We mocked up two full baths -- tub, shower, WC and side by side lavs; Identical fixture layout in both baths.

One was plumbed by me and my students to UPC spec -- The other was plumbed by a Master Plumber and good friend from Georgia to IPC spec.

The model was made to show trap siphonage in a wet vented system versus no siphonage in a system where each trap and trap arm was vented.

Was there trap siphonage in the wet vented system?

Yes there was, particularly in the tub and shower traps, but never to the point where the trap seal was broken.

I miss teaching and I especially miss the budget we had at the beginning of the program.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Did I post on this thread? It's 24 pages long and I ain't wading through all of it. Watch these vids if you really believe that a plugged vent will slow a drain (by itself) then you seriously need to break out your old plumbing manuals and re-educate yourselves. :thumbsup:
> 
> YouTube - ‪vent or no vent‬‏
> 
> ...


You had posted the video on another later thread...
http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/stack-venting-12646/

This argument really made some rounds...
I'm not sure how many threads...
But it does show a definite weakness that many plumbers have in venting...

But the good news is the responses show that there is a lot of passion for proper venting techniques and that is a good thing....:thumbup:

Fortunately we've got some guys that know it....


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Question: did anyone here have a drink and hold your finger on the top of the straw, then lift the straw out of the cup filled with the liquid?
What happens when you take your finger off the straw? Thats a little venting experiment youn can do right at the dinner table lol.
I think venting does matter in my opinion.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I figured you'd be in the finger-straw club based on your previous posts on this forum.

It's pretty clear you have not actually read the content of this thread or you have a learning disability. 



NYC Plumber said:


> Question: did anyone here have a drink and hold your finger on the top of the straw, then lift the straw out of the cup filled with the liquid?
> What happens when you take your finger off the straw? Thats a little venting experiment youn can do right at the dinner table lol.
> I think venting does matter in my opinion.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> Question: did anyone here have a drink and hold your finger on the top of the straw, then lift the straw out of the cup filled with the liquid?
> What happens when you take your finger off the straw? Thats a little venting experiment youn can do right at the dinner table lol.
> I think venting does matter in my opinion.



Oh dear God...


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

you don't see too many DWV systems completely full of water like the straw you are talking about.....It's not a real life plumbing scenario....


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Protech said:


> I figured you'd be in the finger-straw club based on your previous posts on this forum.
> 
> It's pretty clear you have not actually read the content of this thread or you have a learning disability.


I didn't read twelve pages you fing keyboard tough guy. It was a little joke to a long thread. 
I can only dream to be as smart as you "protech" lol! Hows that flux pooling up in the pipe theory treating you?


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Airgap said:


> you don't see too many DWV systems completely full of water like the straw you are talking about.....It's not a real life plumbing scenario....


Was a joke forget it....geez


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> Was a joke forget it....geez


I like jokes....


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Airgap said:


> I like jokes....


Well i couldnt tell by your serious response.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

I have to chime in..... Laughing....


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> Well i couldnt tell by your serious response.


I mistook your joke for a serious response....


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I have to chime in..... Laughing....


There ya go NYC....TEX got your joke....:thumbsup:


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Airgap said:


> There ya go NYC....TEX got your joke....:thumbsup:


Thanks TEX lol at least someone understands me lol


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Quite well. I've made hundreds of thousands of dollars from my knowledge on the subject thus far. Also, it not a "pooling issue". It's a solubility/water compatibility/installation practice issue. There need not be any pooling of flux for the corrosion to occur. Again, perhaps your learning disability prevented you from digesting the information/photos in the thread.



NYC Plumber said:


> I didn't read twelve pages you fing keyboard tough guy. It was a little joke to a long thread.
> I can only dream to be as smart as you "protech" lol! Hows that flux pooling up in the pipe theory treating you?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> I didn't read twelve pages you fing keyboard tough guy. It was a little joke to a long thread.
> I can only dream to be as smart as you "protech" lol! Hows that flux pooling up in the pipe theory treating you?


Well then hit this link to a post for the short version of the challenge...

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/drain-cleaners-chemical-vents-9307/index22/#post193641

We look forward to discussing it with you if you don't agree... :yes:

But if you don't agree you really should read the thread before you open your mouth without thinking.... :whistling2:

The sharks are circling looking for signatures to use.... :laughing:


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Has any body herd the term " air locked ". An oldschool plumber used it all the time ... I've seen him replace the cracked clogged vent... Or even put in a studor vent.... And no more air lock... I don't like studor vents but they have ther place ... Better then a loop vent at least I think... And yes a sink will drain without a vent but better with ont and you have to vent the sewer out and in. At least that's what I was taught .... My opinion.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

In case it was actually a joke, I apologize. Must be my asberger's acting up.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

NYC Plumber said:


> Thanks TEX lol at least someone understands me lol


You know it man


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Air lock is only possible in a dwv system if the piping downstream of the vent connection is done improperly and said defects will have other deleterious effects on the performance of the system (like constant re-clogging and/or slow drainage).



TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Has any body herd the term " air locked ". An oldschool plumber used it all the time ... I've seen him replace the cracked clogged vent... Or even put in a studor vent.... And no more air lock... I don't like studor vents but they have ther place ... Better then a loop vent at least I think... And yes a sink will drain without a vent but better with ont and you have to vent the sewer out and in. At least that's what I was taught .... My opinion.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Has any body herd the term " air locked ". An oldschool plumber used it all the time ... I've seen him replace the cracked clogged vent... Or even put in a studor vent.... And no more air lock... I don't like studor vents but they have ther place ... Better then a loop vent at least I think... And yes a sink will drain without a vent but better with ont and you have to vent the sewer out and in. At least that's what I was taught .... My opinion.


A Air Admittance Valve allows air to flow one way only and that is inward to break the siphon of the trap seal.

If there was an airlock air would need to flow out to allow the liquid to enter.

Awww Damn It Read The Thread!
Its in there at least 50 times...
Just like the finger on the straw! :furious::furious:


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Protech said:


> Quite well. I've made hundreds of thousands of dollars from my knowledge on the subject thus far. Also, it not a "pooling issue". It's a solubility/water compatibility/installation practice issue. There need not be any pooling of flux for the corrosion to occur. Again, perhaps your learning disability prevented you from digesting the information/photos in the thread.


I cant begin to tell you how impressed i am. Did you and plumberman go to the same prestigious school?
You really missed your calling you should have been a scientist not a plumber.
Maybe you both can write a book together.
Your such a wannabe its sad.
How bout this, I've made hundreds of thousands by working my ass off, not coming up with some bs conspiracy theory.
You dont impress me at all buddy. As for my intelligence, i have a mechanical engineering degree as well as a master plumbers licence. I took classes for 5 yrs everyday after work to get it. So again keyboard toughguy you can go f yourself with your learning disabilty theory as well.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Protech said:


> Air lock is only possible in a dwv system if the piping downstream of the vent connection is done improperly and said defects will have other deleterious effects on the performance of the system (like constant re-clogging and/or slow drainage).


Wow! How fast did you google search that? Lol!


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> I cant begin to tell you how impressed i am. Did you and plumberman go to the same prestigious school?
> You really missed your calling you should have been a scientist not a plumber.
> Maybe you both can write a book together.
> Your such a wannabe its sad.
> ...


It obviously didn't stick to the grey matter!

Let me guess Bedford Stuyvesant Community College? :whistling2:


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Let's stop the insults and get back on topic please....


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Redwood said:


> A Air Admittance Valve allows air to flow one way only and that is inward to break the siphon of the trap seal.
> 
> If there was an airlock air would need to flow out to allow the liquid to enter.
> 
> ...


I know how a studor works. My point was you need a vent that terminates outside.... And as for the term airlock I was asking what it ment to yall... Trying to learn here ... That's what pz is about rite??? The way the plumber taught me was that the vent was clogged so it air locked and didn't drain properly And I have read all of the thread Yall need a beer. Takeing this to serious


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> I cant begin to tell you how impressed i am. Did you and plumberman go to the same prestigious school?
> You really missed your calling you should have been a scientist not a plumber.
> Maybe you both can write a book together.
> Your such a wannabe its sad.
> ...


Typical engineer...


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

Grooooooooooooooovy baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaby ya lol jk


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Redwood said:


> Well then hit this link to a post for the short version of the challenge...
> 
> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/drain-cleaners-chemical-vents-9307/index22/#post193641
> 
> ...


I actually think flow wise, it wouldn't make a noticiable difference. But clearly, the main purpose of venting is maintain trap seal and the air movement Extends the life of cast iron systems.
I have seen traps blowout, because of traps not vented properly in high rise bldgs.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I did not google anything. I dare you to produce the source of such alleged googling.

Also, none of your posts on this forum seem to have any substance. Every post of yours I can remember consists of a few sentences of criticism without any actual data or counter theory. Your ability to articulate any sort of counter argument is piss poor. You arrive as an unvetted new comer to a forum of master plumbers and do nothing but fill the threads with simple "your full of it" and "nuh awes". You seam to think you are owed some sort of respect when thus far you have produced nothing to build any sort of credibility.





NYC Plumber said:


> Wow! How fast did you google search that? Lol!


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Well only a failed AAV would allow air out so the AAV cannot fix an air lock...

In drainage an air lock can only occur draining to a an unvented sealed container such as a laundry pump, ejector pit, or, septic tank. I cant think of others offhand and these containers need a vent to allow the waste water to flow in...

If you are getting these symptoms and not draining to an unvented sealed container then the most likely cause would be a misdiagnosed restriction in the line...

Or, a belly in the line creating a double trap effect...

Now for the straw with the finger...

This does not apply in this situation as fixtures are open to atmospheric pressure, If you were to place an airtight seal over the top of a sink then the finger on the straw would apply...

*There now I've said it again! Are you Happy?* :laughing:

*As a penalty you get to repeat this until the thread dies a merciful death...*


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Protech said:


> I did not google anything. I dare you to produce the source of such alleged googling.
> 
> Also, none of your posts on this forum seem to have any substance. Every post of yours I can remember consists of a few sentences of criticism without any actual data or counter theory. Your ability to articulate any sort of counter argument is piss poor. You arrive as an unvetted new comer to a forum of master plumbers and do nothing but fill the threads with simple "your full of it" and "nuh awes". You seam to think you are owed some sort of respect when thus far you have produced nothing to build any sort of credibility.


I never asked for respect, again i just defend myself to dimwits like you. 
You dont take anyones opinion because you are narrowminded and concieted.
You talk like some big time expert, but i think your full of it.
You dont impress me and that hurts your little ego.
And btw you def gooled that.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Redwood said:


> Well only a failed AAV would allow air out so the AAV cannot fix an air lock...
> 
> In drainage an air lock can only occur draining to a an unvented sealed container such as a laundry pump, ejector pit, or, septic tank. I cant think of others offhand and these containers need a vent to allow the waste water to flow in...
> 
> ...


R thanks for the info. Repeated


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> And btw you def gooled that.


Got a link? :whistling2:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Great. Where? 



NYC Plumber said:


> I never asked for respect, again i just defend myself to dimwits like you.
> You dont take anyones opinion because you are narrowminded and concieted.
> You talk like some big time expert, but i think your full of it.
> You dont impress me and that hurts your little ego.
> *And btw you def gooled that.*


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Plumberman said:


> Typical engineer...


Nice comeback again. You wouldn't last ten minutes by me. You should really just stop trying.
Its not even a challenge with you.
At least protech, tries. Lol!


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> Nice comeback again. You wouldn't last ten minutes by me. You should really just stop trying.
> Its not even a challenge with you.
> At least protech, tries. Lol!


Why are you always wanting me by you?

Me thinks you have a little sugar in the gas tank, just my observation.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

NYC Plumber said:


> Nice comeback again. You wouldn't last ten minutes by me. You should really just stop trying.
> Its not even a challenge with you.
> At least protech, tries. Lol!


O boy Here we go!!!! Lmao


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I'm not seeing a match....

Google Search For Protech's Statement...


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

I've seen enough....Thread closed.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Plumberman said:


> Why are you always wanting me by you?
> 
> Me thinks you have a little sugar in the gas tank, just my observation.


A little better... Still needs work though.


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