# air in hot side ?



## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

So just the other day i had a call and before i left the customer said he has been getting air in the hot side of his fixtures. he is on city water and there is no air in the cold. i am unsure if he has gas or electric for the WH. he said he hasnt touched it and the water hasnt gotten really hot. he said it has just started recently. just looking for some possibilities.


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

Weird, ...um, is there a expansion tank on the water heater? Something is up with water heater for sure.


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

he said there is an expansion tank. i am assuming its on the cold side. i should have actually looked at everything but being the bill was written up and i was on my way out i didnt look but i still want to be able to find an answer in case i ever go back or run into the situation again.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Well you would think the expansion tank would eventually run out of air


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> Well you would think the expansion tank would eventually run out of air


I know just spitballing, i can think of one reason only the hot side would spit air.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Fullmetal Frank said:


> I know just spitballing, i can think of one reason only the hot side would spit air.


Something has to be tied into the system ... City water you say so pressure is constant ... Some thing is letting air in... What do they have that is not in a normal system


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> Something has to be tied into the system ... City water you say so pressure is constant ... Some thing is letting air in... What do they gave that is not in a normal system


 Sure it not tied to the heating system???


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

dclarke said:


> So just the other day i had a call and before i left the customer said he has been getting air in the hot side of his fixtures. he is on city water and there is no air in the cold. i am unsure if he has gas or electric for the WH. he said he hasnt touched it and the water hasnt gotten really hot. he said it has just started recently. just looking for some possibilities.


The "customer said" is the problem 

You ar not allowed to create a new invoice for a secondary job or you were to lazy to even check it out for yourself? 

And now you want us to guess, fine my guess is he has a lazy plumber / tech


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Do you spam for one of those ask. Coms


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

its not tied into the heating system. the development isnt that old maybe 15 years and in this area the only residential boilers are in old houses. i havent seen anything residential with a boiler that has been built since at least the 60s. its piped in cpvc. the reason i didnt look is once again it wasnt what the call was for and he asked me as i was leaving. i did offer to check it out and he said it wasnt a big issue so i didnt but i was still curious myself if anybody else has run into the same issue and what they might have found the issue to be. it just happend that i ran into him at the grocery store today and being i just joined the site i figured i would ask other professionals. no need for any type of insults. thanks for any help i am able to recieve


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Anode gassing?

Aerator?


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

Ask if a neighbor has the same issue. Could be coming in from a city pump leak and bubbles have time to gather in the heater. I've seen similar at a house on well water.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Does the house have a water softener? unit stuck in draw cycle and pulling air into the system.

Sent from my iPhone 10.5


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Replace the WH and every faucet in the house, if that dont fix it dont worry he will not call back. :whistling2:


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

dclarke said:


> So just the other day i had a call and before i left the customer said he has been getting air in the hot side of his fixtures. he is on city water and there is no air in the cold. i am unsure if he has gas or electric for the WH. he said he hasnt touched it and the water hasnt gotten really hot. he said it has just started recently. just looking for some possibilities.


One time I went to a service seminar on I believe Water Tech [the only water softner company that uses mined Zeolite] anyway they trapped air in the top of the softener tank and used it to blow out the jet.

That could work its way to the water tank. 

And that was so long ago that I could be full of $hit.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> One time I went to a service seminar on I believe Water Tech [the only water softner company that uses mined Zeolite] anyway they trapped air in the top of the softener tank and used it to blow out the jet.
> 
> That could work its way to the water tank.
> 
> And that was so long ago that I could be full of $hit.


 Water Right is the ONLY company that have Zeolite..


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> Something has to be tied into the system ... City water you say so pressure is constant ... Some thing is letting air in... What do they have that is not in a normal system


Unless it's an air compresser, water would more likely push out rather than allow air in. 

I leaning to anode gassing. Is there a smell when running the hot side?


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

Thanks for the help. Just an odd issue and i was curious for troubleshooting ideas in the future just in case I ever hear of this same problem again.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Fullmetal Frank said:


> Unless it's an air compresser, water would more likely push out rather than allow air in.
> 
> I leaning to anode gassing. Is there a smell when running the hot side?


Don't kid yourself ... Did you ever hear of a Venturi effect ?


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> Don't kid yourself ... Did you ever hear of a Venturi effect ?


So, your saying a restriction in the water flow would cause it to suck in air on the low side? No I think you misunderstand the principle, besides on even if you'er right, it would definitely still leak like a s.o.b. the second the fct was off, and the pressure equalized, making the problem obvious which it's not.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Fullmetal Frank said:


> So, your saying a restriction in the water flow would cause it to suck in air on the low side? No I think you misunderstand the principle, besides on even if you'er right, it would definitely still leak like a s.o.b. the second the fct was off, and the pressure equalized, making the problem obvious which it's not.


You never know until we have seen the job site ... But let's say there is a hot water return line ..which there is a pump ... The constant running of the pump would keep the Venturi effect present and no sign of water leaking from place where air is entering ...

That being said ... A Venturi effect does not need anything more than a change of direction in piping for this to take place .... The pipe would not have to reduce and then get back to the same size ..


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> You never know until we have seen the job site ... But let's say there is a hot water return line ..which there is a pump ... The constant running of the pump would keep the Venturi effect present and no sign of water leaking from place where air is entering ...
> 
> That being said ... A Venturi effect does not need anything more than a change of direction in piping for this to take place .... The pipe would not have to reduce and then get back to the same size ..


I am a bit in the dark on this OS. Could you explain how this works in layman's terms for us non-wet heads?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> I am a bit in the dark on this OS. Could you explain how this works in layman's terms for us non-wet heads?


This principle applies to both water and air ..

The air entering could be from a dripping faucet on the hot side ... As water passes by that dripping faucet it could actually start sucking from there ...

God only knows .. But anything is possible ...

If there is a return line pump then it could be happening 24 hours a day if the pump ran for 24 hrs ...


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> This principle applies to both water and air ..
> 
> The air entering could be from a dripping faucet on the hot side ... As water passes by that dripping faucet it could actually start sucking from there ...
> 
> ...


*Would not this be the same as a deep well 2 pipe system ... The foot valve is the venturi [looking at OS diagram] though using water. Pump water down the well [the small pipe] thru the venturi [foot valve] vacuum created, vacuum filed with water -- then pumped up the bigger pipe and into the pressure tank *


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Would not this be the same as a deep well 2 pipe system ... The foot valve is the venturi [looking at OS diagram] though using water. Pump water down the well [the small pipe] thru the venturi [foot valve] vacuum created, vacuum filed with water -- then pumped up the bigger pipe and into the pressure tank


Yes ... There is a Venturi at the bottom of a deep well system ...

A Venturi effect is used in numerous applications and happens naturally in nature ...


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> Yes ... There is a Venturi at the bottom of a deep well system ...
> 
> A Venturi effect is used in numerous applications and happens naturally in nature ...


I'm with you I've seen it on a single faucet that had a pinhole in the body and didn't leak when on but sucked in air, but the whole house? 

Line of the day 

happens naturally in nature ...


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> You never know until we have seen the job site ... But let's say there is a hot water return line ..which there is a pump ... The constant running of the pump would keep the Venturi effect present and no sign of water leaking from place where air is entering ...
> 
> That being said ... A Venturi effect does not need anything more than a change of direction in piping for this to take place .... The pipe would not have to reduce and then get back to the same size ..


:blink: I just got schooled by oldschool.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Fullmetal Frank said:


> :blink: I just got schooled by oldschool.


Never think you don't learn things on PZ


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## plumberpro (Jan 1, 2013)

Is there a softener for wh if there is a air leak on the brine line ? When softener regents it will draw in air and it will show up on hot side of faucets

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Think about this for a few. Constant water pressure, sucking air, no visible sign of water leaking, and only spitting air on the hot side nothing coming from the cold side.
Bad expansion tank
Anode rod 
Bad recirculating pump
a. Shut off valve should be throttled down to allow a trickle of water, if opened all the way throttle valve down.
b. Pump over heating causing air, replace pump
c. Incorrect installation, install check valves and boiler drain for bleeding the system.
d. No heat trap install heat trap, had this happen and air went into the toilet directly above the water heater ( prior to heat traps factory installed)
Bad solenoid valve in the washing machine.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

plumberpro said:


> Is there a softener for wh if there is a air leak on the brine line ? When softener regents it will draw in air and it will show up on hot side of faucets
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


 
Kind of odd to install a softener on hot only.


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Kind of odd to install a softener on hot only.


Thats what most companies (including us) do. Its an easy install, no needing to seperate water lines. Hot is usually only needed to bath in.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Catlin987987 said:


> Thats what most companies (including us) do. Its an easy install, no needing to seperate water lines. Hot is usually only needed to bath in.


 
I always mix cold with hot in the shower. Kind of defeats the purpose of a softener ,to get rid of the hardness.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Catlin987987 said:


> Thats what most companies (including us) do. Its an easy install, no needing to seperate water lines. Hot is usually only needed to bath in.


What temp are your WH's normally set at?


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Catlin987987 said:


> Thats what most companies (including us) do. Its an easy install, no needing to seperate water lines. Hot is usually only needed to bath in.


Installing a softener only on the water feeding the WH is pointless IMO, install it in on the main feeding the house, or don't install it at all

Sent from my iPhone 10.5


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## bcp2012 (Oct 27, 2012)

I install it on the main. Only thing that is raw water are the outside lawn services

Sent from my iPhone


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## drain surgeon (Jun 17, 2010)

Water softener on the hot side only??? Thats a new one on me.


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## plumberpro (Jan 1, 2013)

drain surgeon said:


> Water softener on the hot side only??? Thats a new one on me.


We do that quit a bit especially in rental prop were the owner doesn't want to pay to split the system in the house even more if they have galv pipes

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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

drain surgeon said:


> Water softener on the hot side only??? Thats a new one on me.


 My parent's home was piped that way, ( my dad is a master plumber) except for washing machine. He explained at that time people didn't like the slimly felling from the soft water, hence, mixing with the mostly used soft wate
r while showering. Also, can drink cold hard water from any faucet.


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> what temp are your wh's normally set at?


140f


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## zoharami (Jan 7, 2013)

heya
since you mentioned the cpvc are in hot pipes, there is your answer.
that pipe is great except the hot line (iow only for cold water use).
cpvc will make great shapes and loose it pipe rounded shaped.
had replaced several of those, willl picture for you next time.
hope you'll feel free to travel and bump onto that customer.
atb
Zohar/


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Look Zohan, we're gonna need an intro or RJ will "maka you the beautiful!"


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

zoharami said:


> heya
> since you mentioned the cpvc are in hot pipes, there is your answer.
> that pipe is great except the hot line (iow only for cold water use).
> cpvc will make great shapes and loose it pipe rounded shaped.
> ...


 If ya know so much... then why didn't you read the request for posting a proper intro?? I won't be the only one to get ugly here..


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

zoharami said:


> heya
> since you mentioned the cpvc are in hot pipes, there is your answer.
> that pipe is great except the hot line (iow only for cold water use).
> cpvc will make great shapes and loose it pipe rounded shaped.
> ...


From your grammar I think it fairly safe to assume English is not your native language, so won't bust your chops about that, however you are incorrect about cpvc being for cold use only, cpvc may be a crappy system but it is rated for hot water use.


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## zoharami (Jan 7, 2013)

hi all.
sorry for not makin an intro.(fixed that one :>)
Frank thank you for not chopppin me.
In my place where i live cpvc (years ago) was very common.
although it's crappy system it works for cold water not bad.
in hot water the pipe will reshape itself there for you might have the air problemo.
that's all
hope everyone are happy.

if ill make it next time ill send a pic of such one.
ATB
Zohar/


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