# I don't do commercial



## Oorgnid (Apr 5, 2016)

I rarely, if ever do commercial. This is probably my 5th commercial job I?ve done since 2008. I've blown through 3 rolls of solder and I?m about sick and tired of soldering. I can see why commercial guys use propress.


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## Oorgnid (Apr 5, 2016)

Not sure why it changed all my apostrophes to question marks. Anyways, few more.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Nice looking solder joints. Mine usually have a chrome stripe running down my verticals.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Nice work! 2" is the biggest I've soldered, eats it right up!

BTW, what's up with the ? In place of the ' ...?


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## Oorgnid (Apr 5, 2016)

Debo22 said:


> Nice looking solder joints. Mine usually have a chrome stripe running down my verticals.


Thanks. Some of the verticals had some run downs, always that very touchy point between just right and too hot. 



OpenSights said:


> Nice work! 2" is the biggest I've soldered, eats it right up!
> 
> BTW, what's up with the ? In place of the ' ...?


I hate soldering big pipe. My boss’s uncle owned a dry cleaner and man those were some big lines. 2 or 2 1/2 I believe. Luckily these are only 1 1/4 with a 1” recirc. No idea about the apostrophes being question marks. I know for sure I used ‘. Probably my dumb phone.

Definitely my phone. Had to request desktop mode to
Fix them.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Clean work. You are going to get some noise from using those split ring hangers. 
Next time (if there is one), try these
https://www.erico.com/catalog/literature/M520S-NAEN.pdf


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## Oorgnid (Apr 5, 2016)

Plumbus said:


> Clean work. You are going to get some noise from using those split ring hangers.
> Next time (if there is one), try these
> https://www.erico.com/catalog/literature/M520S-NAEN.pdf


Hey, those are neat. I’ll run that by my boss if there is. Hopefully the hammer arrestors help some.


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## Bendite (Jan 5, 2016)

Looks good. Nice work....I'm trying to never touch pex or abs again. I do use a lot of pro press though and trust the Viega product only.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

I would love to solder this much. We rarely use sweat fittings anymore. I take it those are washing machine hook ups at a laundromat?


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## Oorgnid (Apr 5, 2016)

Correct. Did the underground and the waterlines.


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

Nice and clean work, congrats. 
Btw, I'm a commercial guy and just use propress just in extremely situation when do services/repair.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

That laundry matt work looks real nice.... Tell me that they only have a 50 gallon bradford white to take care of all those units??? That poor heater will probably give out in no time... 

I guess it depends on the demand in that room of washers.


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## breplum (Mar 21, 2009)

*I don?t do commercial*

Gorgeous work And beautiful photos. On recirc I’ve always been told by the engineers to use long sweeps. One bonus with Pro press is that the 90s have a fairly decent sleep in them by default. Thanks for posting
We have been using Propress for years and rarely solder. 


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Multi oversized pre charged air chambers are needed for this

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## breplum (Mar 21, 2009)

I have posted on Tapatalk but it hasn't showed up.
Nice work and beautiful photos.
To properly insulate and support hot/recirc lines, use calcium silicate inserts at the support points. http://www.cooperindustries.com/con...and_supports/PSGSS-CalciumSilicateShields.pdf
The other thing to mention is that good practices dictate that on recirc, it is worthwhile to use "long sweep" elbows. Another advantage of Propress is that the elbows already have good sweep.
Also, you do not need to use 1" for return on a typical system. If using PEX, most mfrs want 3/4" but on moderate distances, 1/2" is more than enough. The velocity needed on the pump is minimal.


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## Oorgnid (Apr 5, 2016)

Master Mark said:


> That laundry matt work looks real nice.... Tell me that they only have a 50 gallon bradford white to take care of all those units??? That poor heater will probably give out in no time...
> 
> I guess it depends on the demand in that room of washers.


Thanks. The blueprints were calling for (3) 80 gal water heaters jammed into that little room, but we are only installing a Bradford White 75gal and an existing 80 gal that the GC wants to reuse. 16 washers total, so we’ll see how it holds up. 



breplum said:


> I have posted on Tapatalk but it hasn't showed up.
> Nice work and beautiful photos.
> To properly insulate and support hot/recirc lines, use calcium silicate inserts at the support points. http://www.cooperindustries.com/con...and_supports/PSGSS-CalciumSilicateShields.pdf
> The other thing to mention is that good practices dictate that on recirc, it is worthwhile to use "long sweep" elbows. Another advantage of Propress is that the elbows already have good sweep.
> Also, you do not need to use 1" for return on a typical system. If using PEX, most mfrs want 3/4" but on moderate distances, 1/2" is more than enough. The velocity needed on the pump is minimal.


Thanks. Your first post did show up. I however just now got the time to respond to posts. The blueprints called for a 1” recirc. Trying to do everything best to blueprints, though the limited space and unwillingness of the GC makes it a little rough. 

The GC actually did their own drain rough in. I took some pictures to share. I shake my head because I took a lot of time to make the copper look nice. They are trying to cut costs by doing some of the work themselves. I have a very strong feeling it isn’t going to pass and I’ll end up doing it anyways.


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## 5onthefloor (Sep 13, 2017)

Wait seriously? After all that great looking work they can do their own plumbing? You know I heard that NASA scientists like to watch the movie Armageddon with ol Bruce Willis so they can point out all the mistakes and science goofs. These 3 pics made me think of that. So u did under ground then they put this hackery to it?!?

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## Oorgnid (Apr 5, 2016)

5onthefloor said:


> Wait seriously? After all that great looking work they can do their own plumbing? You know I heard that NASA scientists like to watch the movie Armageddon with ol Bruce Willis so they can point out all the mistakes and science goofs. These 3 pics made me think of that. So u did under ground then they put this hackery to it?!?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Yep. The vent is running below flood level and a lot of the stand pipes are not plumb and just butchered in. I won?t lie, it was very hard to keep myself motivated after seeing the drain lines. Looks like Barney ejaculated all over the place.


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

Nice copper, nice sweat work. That sucks someone else did the dwv. If I were the property owner, you would have the entire plumbing bid.


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## 5onthefloor (Sep 13, 2017)

Oorgnid said:


> Yep. The vent is running below flood level and a lot of the stand pipes are not plumb and just butchered in. I won?t lie, it was very hard to keep myself motivated after seeing the drain lines. Looks like Barney ejaculated all over the place.


The funny thing is they probably think they are the **** but that inspection is gonna bite em right in the ass!

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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Kinda like driving around a brand new car with a dent in the drivers door...


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Great looking copper for sure.

Until I read further I thought oh man how screwed the PVC was. Glad you have no claim n that.

Was another supposed plumber responsible for that mess? If not how the heck did the AHJ let them get by with it.

With all fixtures the same oversizing the horizontal branch by one pipe size, leaving the wye's flat a vent between the first trap and stack and between the last two traps up as high as it can be ran would do it. "Battery Venting" at least in Illinois code. If more than 8 then two branches.


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

I thought the battery vent provision was for floor outlet only? Been a while since I did anything like that.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Toli said:


> I thought the battery vent provision was for floor outlet only? Been a while since I did anything like that.



Toli, Yep your correct, good catch. Definition of "battery" is vague until you read the section 890.1520.

As a lot in the code that doesn't make common sense, no difference between above or below floor in the real world. I hate to see how many times a clean out is not installed to open at a right angle to the direction of flow (end of a wye & 1/8 bend) and still gets passed, or an Island vent has a tee in the vertical and horizontal against the code verbiage and still passes with State Inspectors. So much so (engineered floor trusses) in my area I pass them instead of bucking the State.

Other option is vertical cross tee, vent off the top, max 48" from trap to vent can catch 2 washers off of one line.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Pass or no pass, that set up is an invite to suds problems.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Oorgnid said:


> Yep. The vent is running below flood level and a lot of the stand pipes are not plumb and just butchered in. I won?t lie, it was very hard to keep myself motivated after seeing the drain lines. Looks like Barney ejaculated all over the place.




So they let you do the hard work and Mr PATEL goes and gets some hack
freind of his with some glue to do the drain work....

that is great


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## Oorgnid (Apr 5, 2016)

rwh said:


> Nice copper, nice sweat work. That sucks someone else did the dwv. If I were the property owner, you would have the entire plumbing bid.


I wish it were that way, would have made things a lot easier.



5onthefloor said:


> The funny thing is they probably think they are the **** but that inspection is gonna bite em right in the ass!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


They've been making comments about how long it's been taking to do all the soldering and what not. They spent about a day on the drains, which it shows. Problem is, they are buying all the material, so I can only solder with what I have, which isn't much. In any case, my boss told them it looked good, so now they think they're plumbers. 



GAN said:


> Great looking copper for sure.
> 
> Until I read further I thought oh man how screwed the PVC was. Glad you have no claim n that.
> 
> ...


Well, the situation is complete crap. They had multiple bids for this job, but they were saying it was too high. Some plumber quoted them 13k for everything, gaslines, drains, water, saw cutting the concrete, etc. They said that was too high. Lowest bid they go was 5.8k, they provide material, but I guess that was still too high. 

Right now, as it stands, my boss is charging them $60 an hour and material at cost.... The GC saw cut the concrete, ran the gaslines, ran the vents and drains. They said they would have done it all if they weren't required to have a master's license to do the work, but since it's in the city they are required to. 

In any case, did the underground and the waterlines. We were going to do the drain lines, but they said they were going to do them to save money and time, and my boss okay'd it. Which...I don't understand why because now when that fails inspections, that makes us look bad. No way am I taking credit for that shoddy work, and if they try and pin it on me, I'm pointing the finger at the source. Not sure why my boss thinks it isn't going to come back on us, when he's the one who pulled the plumbing permit.

Believe me, I've been trying to find a new job. I feel underappreciated for the clean and hard work I do, as well as just putting up with his poor business management. That state job didn't fall through for me because I didn't have enough commercial experience. Wont be able to apply to the plumbing union this month because applications are only excepted every third Monday of the month. I'll apply, but still wont be able to get in until March of next year. From what I understand from the recruiter, they accept applications every month, but don't hire until March. I don't think my hours under a master will transfer, but at this point, I just don't care anymore. I'm tired of working for a hack.


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## 5onthefloor (Sep 13, 2017)

Oorgnid said:


> I wish it were that way, would have made things a lot easier.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bro, what the ****? Here in TX one call to the city or plumbing board would have had all those hacks off the jobsite. No person can touch plumbing without a license, especially if you're in a city where code enforcement trucks circle the city like sharks in the water. 
If your master pulled permits, and he's letting hacks do this ****ty ass work, it will fall under his permit and license. For as much beating down they did, I would have walked. Unless your boss included exclusions in the contract for failed inspections due to work not done by the plumbing company. 
This is what a train wreck looks like before it jumps the rails I just feel for you because it's not an ideal situation and I hope the best for you. 
We all put up with different ****, and not all jobs can be perfect, but how we handle our business and maintain our professionalism despite the bravo Sierra really says so much about us and our tradecraft. 
You know they don't know **** since they criticized your CU work while their primer jizzed DWV is being mocked by pros all over the interwebs. 
I'm rooting for you bro, I really am

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## Oorgnid (Apr 5, 2016)

5onthefloor said:


> Bro, what the ****? Here in TX one call to the city or plumbing board would have had all those hacks off the jobsite. No person can touch plumbing without a license, especially if you're in a city where code enforcement trucks circle the city like sharks in the water.
> If your master pulled permits, and he's letting hacks do this ****ty ass work, it will fall under his permit and license. For as much beating down they did, I would have walked. Unless your boss included exclusions in the contract for failed inspections due to work not done by the plumbing company.
> This is what a train wreck looks like before it jumps the rails I just feel for you because it's not an ideal situation and I hope the best for you.
> We all put up with different ****, and not all jobs can be perfect, but how we handle our business and maintain our professionalism despite the bravo Sierra really says so much about us and our tradecraft.
> ...


I've wanted to walk many times. I was just saying that to myself today because the GC's poor attitude and how he came *****ing to me asking where the expansion tank was. That's between him and my boss, but since my boss doesn't make a presence, I'm the middle guy and have to deal with the back and forth crap. Unfortunately, there is only one inspector for the city, and he covers all trades, which he's always so crammed with inspections he doesn't have time to be driving around and checking on people who do work. So there are a lot of flybynighters. Thanks for the pick me up. I'm trying to hang in there while I search.


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## 5onthefloor (Sep 13, 2017)

Oorgnid said:


> I've wanted to walk many times. I was just saying that to myself today because the GC's poor attitude and how he came *****ing to me asking where the expansion tank was. That's between him and my boss, but since my boss doesn't make a presence, I'm the middle guy and have to deal with the back and forth crap. Unfortunately, there is only one inspector for the city, and he covers all trades, which he's always so crammed with inspections he doesn't have time to be driving around and checking on people who do work. So there are a lot of flybynighters. Thanks for the pick me up. I'm trying to hang in there while I search.


You got it man. I don't know what it's like where you're from but here the city has an army of code enforcement and a lot of these folks are ex cops and the like. They don't put up with this BS especially in New construction and remodels. I get what you're saying. I used to have a boss that did the same to me. I started telling the GC's "I don't know" as my answer always so they would get fed up and call him. If he didn't answer I'd give them the same answer and they'd eventually leave me alone
I do the same now. I do warranty service so the GCs will sometimes talk to me like I'm their employee and I straight up ignore them. They hate it but I'm paid to work not deal with them. That's what my boss is for. They try to get my work cell and I'm like in your dreams Jean!
Anyway no worries man. We hear your pain. I'm just curious how this will all play out in the end. And be sure your exit strategy is in place when you do step off

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## Oorgnid (Apr 5, 2016)

5onthefloor said:


> You got it man. I don't know what it's like where you're from but here the city has an army of code enforcement and a lot of these folks are ex cops and the like. They don't put up with this BS especially in New construction and remodels. I get what you're saying. I used to have a boss that did the same to me. I started telling the GC's "I don't know" as my answer always so they would get fed up and call him. If he didn't answer I'd give them the same answer and they'd eventually leave me alone
> I do the same now. I do warranty service so the GCs will sometimes talk to me like I'm their employee and I straight up ignore them. They hate it but I'm paid to work not deal with them. That's what my boss is for. They try to get my work cell and I'm like in your dreams Jean!
> Anyway no worries man. We hear your pain. I'm just curious how this will all play out in the end. And be sure your exit strategy is in place when you do step off
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I'm curious too. The only thing that has been inspected, was the underground. They insulated the waterlines and they haven't even been inspected yet. I hate to be that guy, but part of me hopes that they have to remove the insulation for inspection. As far as an exit plan, I wont jump roof till I know there is safe landing underneath.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Oh my goodness.

Wow I feel your crawling stomach. I sure hope you can get away from the ****bum boss you have. A disgrace to the trade. Anyone can and will make mistakes and I have no issue with that. But to blatantly violate the code when your licensed is completely another matter.

When I inspect I will work with anyone union or not, you have to. Be up front and honest and we get things worked out. Screw me like this guy is doing and your life will become miserable for the next year or so.

I had a licensed plumbing contractor several years ago in my area, who would let guys working for him install plumbing without having an apprentice license (not needed for cutting holes, gas piping, material runs, etc.). Caught his guys in the act (won't blame them, they're trying to make a living). I reported it to the State who licenses plumbers & their apprentices and forced a hearing. Drug him and his apprentice in he got a talking to by the State and got his personnel correctly licensed. His rear will be in a sling if he gets caught again. At least when word gets around for something like this it helps the industry self correct.

Good luck dude.


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## 5onthefloor (Sep 13, 2017)

Update?

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## Oorgnid (Apr 5, 2016)

Still waiting on inspection. Have not been there all week. Last week I was only there to finish the other water heater. Water authority put the meter in but they cannot find the curb to turn water into the building. Dunno what the hold up is, but do not worry, I will keep everyone posted. 

Side note: I would like to use contractions when I post, but apparently when posting from mobile, it turns the words into a jumbled mess.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Iron pump on potable water return??

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## Oorgnid (Apr 5, 2016)

rjbphd said:


> Iron pump on potable water return??
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


Stainless. Whopping $436 for that bad boy.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Plumbus said:


> Clean work. You are going to get some noise from using those split ring hangers.
> Next time (if there is one), try these
> https://www.erico.com/catalog/literature/M520S-NAEN.pdf


We use splitties all the time for yrs and never no noise at all long as you tighten them up:laughing: those insulated ones way to expensive eek


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Oorgnid said:


> Yep. The vent is running below flood level and a lot of the stand pipes are not plumb and just butchered in. I won?t lie, it was very hard to keep myself motivated after seeing the drain lines. Looks like Barney ejaculated all over the place.


Looks like someone just rared back and threw that crap in place,will not pass in ky,they have running traps everywhere,I would get my money ASAP if they are in this bad of shape,also I would not permit their work


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## Oorgnid (Apr 5, 2016)

Still have yet to go back. They want the water turned in to the building, but there’s no heat. I’m still anxious for the inspection.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

sparky said:


> We use splitties all the time for yrs and never no noise at all long as you tighten them up:laughing: those insulated ones way to expensive eek


If they engineer calls for quiet, the insulated rings are the way to go. They are only too expensive when one neglects to include them in one's bid.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Plumbus said:


> If they engineer calls for quiet, the insulated rings are the way to go. They are only too expensive when one neglects to include them in one's bid.


Never heard copper rattle while secured in a properly rod and nutted split ring hanger,never,now if you don’t put nuts on the allthread then it could make some racket but highly doubtful


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Wilo 3 speed stainless pump, $ 246.00. ...

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## Oorgnid (Apr 5, 2016)

No idea. I didn’t order it. Funny story, the GC of the job went into the supply house and ordered it on my boss’s account. Supply house didn’t question it and allowed the transaction. (I’ll never do another job for these yayhoos again). Just finished an addition for them, and we’re finishing this one. *eye roll*

I’m sure it would have been more expensive if we would have ordered it from APR supply. Stopped in today for (4)1/2 x 3/8 quarter turn, threaded straight stops. $12 a piece. Could have bought them cheaper from Home Depot. Supply houses are worse than box stores anymore. Same brass craft **** too.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

I hate those qtr turn shut off, should be banned

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## flyy (Dec 31, 2013)

awesome soldering job. Be careful what your good at. your name has probably already been past around a few times.


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## Oorgnid (Apr 5, 2016)

flyy said:


> awesome soldering job. Be careful what your good at. your name has probably already been past around a few times.


Huh??


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Oorgnid said:


> Huh??


Hack from BC. No intro. I don’t agree with a ignore list, butt the mods here are cool enough to let us f with idiots for a a bit.


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## Oorgnid (Apr 5, 2016)

OpenSights said:


> Oorgnid said:
> 
> 
> > Huh??
> ...


Oh. I was trying to wonder why it would be bad if I could solder lol


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Oorgnid said:


> Oh. I was trying to wonder why it would be bad if I could solder lol


No, I think that was actually a complement from him.

Top notch work soldering, as he mentioned, but I suspect that isn’t the norm in his day to day world.


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

I LOVE commercial. Lot different than residential. Look at the blue prints, figure it out, find the flaws, change them to work, more money, plumbing or carpentry. I LOVE commercial work!!


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

I know it inside and out, can turn a quick buck on it


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## plumb1801 (Apr 4, 2014)

Nice looking job! Whenever possible and when the budget allows I use ProPress fittings- saves time and you can insulate as you go especially when you are 20' above finish floor. The ProPress is nice for repairs on commercial work when the water will not completely shut off or where a burn permit is required when hot work is done. I have contracts with health care facilities that require burn permits and in my area that can take 2 days to get. Again nice clean work.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Good looking work. To answer your question there is a breaking point that makes pro press profitable and it is usually 21/2 inch. If you think three rolls is bad wait till you solder some six inch.


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## canuck92 (Apr 1, 2016)

Oorgnid said:


> Master Mark said:
> 
> 
> > That laundry matt work looks real nice.... Tell me that they only have a 50 gallon bradford white to take care of all those units??? That poor heater will probably give out in no time...
> ...


Are you guys aloud to gang trap a bank of clothes washers where your from ? Would save alot of material ...
Nice work though very clean.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Around here we can use a trough for multiple commercial washers. Last one I did had a twenty foot trench and a 6 inch p trap flowing into a 100 gallon lint trap.


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