# hot water takes 10 minutes



## Plantificus (Sep 17, 2009)

its a GE tank and it's two years old, for some reason it was plumbed with 1/2 in copper that is threaded into 3/4 in galvanized after about two feet. it takes about 10 minutes for hot water to reach any area in the house, the hot water itself has good pressure and its hot, not luke warm .. I'm thinking melted heat traps or the 1/2 is restricting flow of the hot water. Any thoughts?


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Hmmm.....


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

If, when hot water gets to the fixtures, it's hot and has good pressure/volume I'm thinking hot water is going somewhere it shouldn't. A leak or crossover maybe? That's a long time to wait for water if it's not dribbling out the tap.






Paul


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## Plantificus (Sep 17, 2009)

I'm sure there are no leaks, I've never diagnosed a cross over, where are the common places to find them?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Plantificus said:


> I'm sure there are no leaks, I've never diagnosed a cross over, where are the common places to find them?


 




Search for a check valve stuck in the open position. Maybe after 10 minutes it closes.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

What size are the hot water trucks? Maybe they ran a 2" galvo trunk line and it just takes that long to purge it :laughing:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Plantificus said:


> its a GE tank and it's two years old, for some reason it was plumbed with 1/2 in copper that is threaded into 3/4 in galvanized after about two feet. it takes about 10 minutes for hot water to reach any area in the house, the hot water itself has good pressure and its hot, not luke warm .. I'm thinking melted heat traps or the 1/2 is restricting flow of the hot water. Any thoughts?


 



Is the W/H electric? If so, maybe top element is blown.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Nope. Not possible.



Tommy plumber said:


> Is the W/H electric? If so, maybe top element is blown.


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## HOMER (Jun 5, 2011)

common cross connection source : Moen single handle (not Posi temp)


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Protech said:


> Nope. Not possible.


You got me thinking...why can't this be a possibility?


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

Because u wouldnt have hot water bu the time the top of the tank emptied the cold comong in would dilute the hot on the bottom


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

Not necessarily so. Did you/he actually check the elements out or are we just looking and guessing?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

gear junkie said:


> You got me thinking...why can't this be a possibility?


it's cut and dry actually. most water heaters are non simultaneous operation wired. the primary thermostat at the top only turns on the top element 1 top of the tank is cold. when it does this it disconnects the lower element. the top element happens to be blown, no elements would be running as the top 1 is blown in the lower 1 is switched off. since the upper thermostat will not direct power to the lower element until the top portion of the tank is heated in the top portion of the tank will never heat because the element is blown, the tank will not heat at all. 

If the lower element happens to be blown, only the top third of the tank will heat. a common complaint for a lower blown element is not enough hot water. the building occupant will typically only get 5 minutes worth of hot water before it goes cold on them.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

plumb nutz said:


> Not necessarily so. Did you/he actually check the elements out or are we just looking and guessing?


there is no need to check the elements. even if the top element was somehow blown, and the water heater continued to heat in spite of the reasoning listed above, the heated water from the lower element would just stratify to the top of the tank. of course as I explained earlier, the only way that would even be possible is if someone rewired the tank.


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## FEDguy (May 19, 2010)

*How long is the hot water piping run?*

How long is the hot water piping run?


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

Protech said:


> there is no need to check the elements. even if the top element was somehow blown, and the water heater continued to heat in spite of the reasoning listed above, the heated water from the lower element would just stratify to the top of the tank. of course as I explained earlier, the only way that would even be possible is if someone rewired the tank.


It would only be possible if...

If...

If you take the 5 minutes to put the meter on the elements that's one think checked off the list. It took more time to write your last post instead of properly checking the heater out. Keep it simple, check the basics, then go to all the Sherlock Holmes sh*t.


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

It's not the tank, it obviously is heating water. I can't think of a way that awater heater would have cold water at the top of the tank over hot water.

How long has this been a complaint?

It could be that there is a small heater, in line, being fed by the main heater, and that small tank is no longer heating. For example, in the past someone may have added a tank near the farthest fixtures to keep from waiting for the hot water to arrive.

Look around. check breakers to see if there is a second wh listed.


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

gitnerdun said:


> It's not the tank, it obviously is heating water. I can't think of a way that awater heater would have cold water at the top of the tank over hot water.
> 
> How long has this been a complaint?
> 
> ...


Really? I have. It's called a malfunctioning upper thermostat.
Only heated at the bottom.
Only thing that surprises me is a plumber that cant be surprised...

of its only in one location, start there. If its the whole house, start at the heater.

Check your elements, your voltage, your t-stats.; if they check ok check the flow control nipples for debris or disfigurement.
If you don't know how to check the heater ask, I'm sure someone would be more than willing to help...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It took about 2 seconds to check it off my list of possibilities.

The time I spent on the post was for the benifit of those who asked a question about the elements.



Rather than waste my time playing around with elements that I know are good, I would start out buy putting my hand on the heater outlet line when the closest fixture is running and feel the hot water enter the line. Next I run into the next room where the first fixture is at and time the hot water slug to that fixture. As soon as it gets there I do the same thing again at the next closest fixture, then the next one. I do this until I get all the way out to the furthest one. I add up the times and make sure it all makes sense. If there is a huge gap somewhere I know I have a crossconnection or some kind of loop that was added.

That would be where I start.

I might also bust out the navitrack and the line tracer if needed. Map the whole system out and then recheck the hot water arrival times to make sure it all adds up.



plumb nutz said:


> It would only be possible if...
> 
> If...
> 
> If you take the 5 minutes to put the meter on the elements that's one think checked off the list. It took more time to write your last post instead of properly checking the heater out. Keep it simple, check the basics, then go to all the Sherlock Holmes sh*t.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Dude, you are making a fool of yourself.

YOU CAN NOT HAVE HOT WATER IN THE BOTTOM OF THE TANK AND COLD ON TOP. Look up "thermocline" and understand what it is. Then rejoin the conversation. This is first year apprentice stuff.




plumb nutz said:


> Really? I have. It's called a malfunctioning upper thermostat.
> Only heated at the bottom.
> Only thing that surprises me is a plumber that cant be surprised...
> 
> ...


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

Bull...

It happens with a bad dip tube
It will happen if the upper thermostat does not function and the lower one does.
Yes I understand the stacking effect of heated water. Yet you seem to believe that water at the top of the tank will never cool, never blend with colder water and never come out tepid.

IT HAS HAPPENED TO ME

If it has never happened prior to the installation of this heater, it has to do with the heater, period.


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

All I ask is that this has been checked out, I doubt it has....

If it has then lets hear it...


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

1.In a store or building with a return there is the possibility of long waits if the circulating pump is out........

2.If the house has 2 heaters and they are looped and a check valve scenario (no check valve)

Need more info
3. actual times??? 10 min at a tub or a 1.75gal/m aerator


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

A bad dip tube will not usually produce the sysmtoms described. A bad thermostat or element definatly won't. 

Like I said, hand on the outlet pipe. You should instantly feel heat when the faucet starts to flow. If not, dip tube. If you do, trace the heat from fixture to fixture.



plumb nutz said:


> Bull...
> 
> It happens with a bad dip tube
> It will happen if the upper thermostat does not function and the lower one does.
> ...


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Faulty ecu
Bad re-circulating pump
Defective mixing valve
Hot and cold hose bibbs in the garage tied together with a y fitting and using a nozzle at the end of the hose for the on /off.
Look for the ridiculous 
Bad retro fit re-circulating pump thermostatic valve adapter in a cabinet


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Recently had a tile guy install a delta monitor valve, tile man turned water on without installing the cartridge. Hot and cold cross connected through the new valve .


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I've had a few where the hack installed valves sideways or with volume controls on the riser and no check valves.

Had one where the hack installed a 3 handle valve on a shower only.

Like I said, put your hand on the outlet pipe of the heater and verify heat is leaving the heater. Then start tracking the crossover or leak down. 



Richard Hilliard said:


> Recently had a tile guy install a delta monitor valve, tile man turned water on without installing the cartridge. Hot and cold cross connected through the new valve .


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Protech said:


> it's cut and dry actually. most water heaters are non simultaneous operation wired. the primary thermostat at the top only turns on the top element 1 top of the tank is cold. when it does this it disconnects the lower element. the top element happens to be blown, no elements would be running as the top 1 is blown in the lower 1 is switched off. since the upper thermostat will not direct power to the lower element until the top portion of the tank is heated in the top portion of the tank will never heat because the element is blown, the tank will not heat at all.
> 
> If the lower element happens to be blown, only the top third of the tank will heat. a common complaint for a lower blown element is not enough hot water. the building occupant will typically only get 5 minutes worth of hot water before it goes cold on them.


 



I'm not saying you're incorrect. So there is no scenario where the lower element and/or t-stat will work if the upper element and/or t-stat are not functioning? 

What if (I haven't put my theory stated here to the test) the lower t-stat calls for power and the upper t-stat has a loose wire or dis-connected wire. Assuming the breaker doesn't trip, won't the lower half of the tank get heated but not the top?

In other words, either the whole tank gets heated (non-simultaneously) or just the top half, but never just the bottom half?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

see bold



Tommy plumber said:


> I'm not saying you're incorrect. So there is no scenario where the lower element and/or t-stat will work if the upper element and/or t-stat are not functioning? *Correct*
> 
> What if (I haven't put my theory stated here to the test) the lower t-stat calls for power and the upper t-stat has a loose wire or dis-connected wire. Assuming the breaker doesn't trip, won't the lower half of the tank get heated but not the top? *No. The lower Tstat gets it's power from the upper when the upper is satisfied. Since the top of the tank would be cold from the lack of the element firing, the upper Tstat will never switch off and divert power to the lower Tstat.*
> 
> In other words, either the whole tank gets heated (non-simultaneously) or just the top half, but never just the bottom half? *Correct*


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Thanks Pro-Tech, I wasn't aware of the wiring and how it relates to the sequencing of current pathways.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I have only had 1 water heater wired backwards from the factory. It was a Rheem and it was back in the 80’s. The heater ran out of hot water quickly. The bottom stat would kick on first. I guess a handy man could have wired a heater wrong if he changed the stats. I do not see how that would affect the 10 minute wait time and then receive plenty of hot water; this would give you the same as if the bottom element is burned out with a correctly wired water heater.

Sometimes waiting 3 minutes can seem like 10 minutes especially standing there with a customer. Last weekend I had to verify that a tank less water heater was installed correctly. The customer did not listen to us and had another hack plumbing company install a Titan tank less for 2 bath home, laundry and kitchen. She can only run 1 fixture at a time. It takes 4 minutes 32 seconds to get hot water in her master bath. She has a 1.0 gpm Glacier Bay 2 handle faucet. Changed the aerator for her to get quicker hot water however the tank less is working the way it should which sucks to say the best. Wait till winter when the water is much colder.

If the home owner is not worried about being Green take the water saver washers out of the faucet or drill the shower heads out to increase volume. How is the volume when 2 or more fixtures are opened? I forgot about gate valves that can drop giving you the pressure but not the volume. Check the shutoffs on the heater and at the main or on the separate risers.


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

I saw a Titan that almost caught a house on fire last winter. Junk

I think we need the OP to do some more investigating (Sherlock Holmes chit) and share details.


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## AllAces777 (Nov 23, 2010)

Sure would like to see pictures!
Of course I've ran into this on more than 1 occasion. Its a shame!


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Richard Hilliard said:


> I have only had 1 water heater wired backwards from the factory. It was a Rheem and it was back in the 80’s. The heater ran out of hot water quickly. The bottom stat would kick on first. I guess a handy man could have wired a heater wrong if he changed the stats.


I don't see that as something that would result in anything less than an ECO trip...

Your initial heating on the lower element would be fine then when it switches to the upper there would be uncontrolled heating till the ECO activation...

Both thermostats would control the lower element none on the upper...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It would depend on the wiring error. Tough to say without seeing a wiring diagram of how they hacked it (not the computer kind of hacking).



Redwood said:


> I don't see that as something that would result in anything less than an ECO trip...
> 
> Your initial heating on the lower element would be fine then when it switches to the upper there would be uncontrolled heating till the ECO activation...
> 
> Both thermostats would control the lower element none on the upper...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Protech said:


> It would depend on the wiring error. Tough to say without seeing a wiring diagram of how they hacked it (not the computer kind of hacking).


Well they would then have to run an extra pair of wires to the lower thermostat for anything else to happen...

Richard did state that the lower came on first then upper...

The logic seems off...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Well they would then have to run an extra pair of wires to the lower thermostat for anything eles to happen...
> 
> Richard did state that the lower came on first then upper...
> 
> The logic seems off...


True


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