# New toilets with the built in overflow



## Phat Cat

Has anyone seen the new toilets with the built in overflow in the China in operation? Is it a good flush?


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

PlumbCrazy said:


> Has anyone seen the new toilets with the built in overflow in the China in operation? Is it a good flush?



I dont see how that would affect the flush. Im sure, that the overflow is at the highest point in the bowl. RSP belives, that the overflow in the bowl, would not affect, nor interfer with the flush what so ever. Well, at least thats how i would build the damn things. :thumbup:


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## Phat Cat

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> I dont see how that would affect the flush. Im sure, that the overflow is at the highest point in the bowl. RSP belives, that the overflow in the bowl, would not affect, nor interfer with the flush what so ever. Well, at least thats how i would build the damn things. :thumbup:


I,m not suggesting the flush is different because of the overflow, just wanting to know if these toilets perform well overall. One of our suppliers is going to start stocking them.


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## TheMaster

PlumbCrazy said:


> I,m not suggesting the flush is different because of the overflow, just wanting to know if these toilets perform well overall. One of our suppliers is going to start stocking them.


 Tell them if they want you to sell some to your customers then they should GIVE you one to try out.:thumbsup:


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## Phat Cat

TheMaster said:


> Tell them if they want you to sell some to your customers then they should GIVE you one to try out.:thumbsup:


Great idea TM! Definitely not selling them without track record or personal experience with them.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

PlumbCrazy said:


> I,m not suggesting the flush is different because of the overflow, just wanting to know if these toilets perform well overall. One of our suppliers is going to start stocking them.



Well then PC, go to your supply house, un box one of the bowls, take a seat on it, do your business, and then dump a bucket of water in there, and see how it does. :laughing:


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## Airgap

PlumbCrazy said:


> Has anyone seen the new toilets with the built in overflow in the China in operation? Is it a good flush?


 Who's the manufacturer PC?


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## Phat Cat

The toilets are made by Penguin - two guys in construction invented it and are promoting it.

As far as I can tell, Penguin is having them manufactured.

http://www.penguintoilets.com/


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## tnoisaw

I just looked at the Penguin toilets at their web site. The problem I see is that unless you have only liquids the overflow holes will be easy to clog because the holes appear to be pretty small. Usualy when a toilet overflows it has solids in it too with TP which will plug the overflow holes.


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## Plumber Jim

I think if they just make a toilet that flushes well then they won't need to worry about it overflowing. I question how well it flushes seeing as how it wastes some water buy going straight down the secondary drain to keep it clean. Also giving that the secondary drain is so small it may clog over time from minerals and i see no way to clear it.


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## Pipedoc

tnoisaw said:


> I just looked at the Penguin toilets at their web site. The problem I see is that unless you have only liquids the overflow holes will be easy to clog because the holes appear to be pretty small. Usualy when a toilet overflows it has solids in it too with TP which will plug the overflow holes.


 
If the three holes get clogged it will still drain. There is a secondary drain to the secondary drain. 

I don't know if that made sense? :laughing:


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## Pipedoc

Plumber Jim said:


> I think if they just make a toilet that flushes well then they won't need to worry about it overflowing. I question how well it flushes seeing as how it wastes some water buy going straight down the secondary drain to keep it clean. Also giving that the secondary drain is so small it may clog over time from minerals and i see no way to clear it.


I agree. However, I would like to test one of these out though. If they perofm well I think we'll be seeing more of this design in the future.


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## Protech

I see a huge design flaw...........


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## Phat Cat

Protech said:


> I see a huge design flaw...........


Please elaborate Protech . . .


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## Protech

What happens when the second trap clogs? how are you going to clean that? looks like the water ways are very small with tigh bends.

Also I see a very real potential for the rim jets getting clogged.

I say just get a caroma or a toto.


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## service guy

Yep, the secondary trap is necessary to prevent sewer gas leaks, but the secondary trap is also a bit of a design flaw. What prevents the trap from becoming a bacteria-fest or mineral depository? That is my question as well. Good call Protech. Sharp.:thumbsup:


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## TheMaster

Everytime the toilet gets flushed the secondary trap gets washed out with 300ml of water. I dont see minreral build up or bacteria in the secondary trap being an issue under typical conditions. If you have mineral build up in toilets from the water supply then you need water treatment anyway. The only mineral build up I see on a regular basis is from people urinating in the toilet and not flushing it. I see some mineral build up around the rim ports occasionally but most of the time its only mildew growing under the rim and in the ports of a toilet that doesn't get flushed very much. Sure the overflow could get clogged and the overflow from the rim ports could also clogg but under normal conditions it wouldn't. Nothing perfect. Here is my MAIN problem with the design and its a stretch kinda.....Its about the secondary trap and it clogging. NOT from mineral build up or the waste matter in the bowl in most conditions....but when the sewer cloggs and the toilet branch pipe fills up with sewage and backs up into that little trap and sits there. It could clogg that secondary trap and sit there with water sitting on top of it......stinking to the high heavens and growing bacteria. I would like to here there service proceedure for an occasion like that. I'd like to know the size of the secondary trap and if its glazed or not. I still would NOT SELL one but I would install it with a no warranty stamped on the ticket. I would only warranty that I installed it per the directions. I dont think I would buy one.:laughing: I realize under normal conditions the toielt doesn't clogg anyway.....I'm speaking of Vomit mainly...that would concrn me.


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## ASUPERTECH

PlumbCrazy said:


> The toilets are made by Penguin - two guys in construction invented it and are promoting it.
> 
> As far as I can tell, Penguin is having them manufactured.
> 
> http://www.penguintoilets.com/


 
I like it my first thought was that it was only 1 terd away from overflowing, but after watching the video from the link, I like it, as far as cleaning the 2ndary trap and it is washed with every flush, and should any of the jets get clogged, I do this on standard toilet rebuilds... Vacum down all water from the bowl, dump 1 bottle of calci-solve into the overflow tube this should remove mineral bld up. And if you were to use one of those in the tank mounted overflow tube bypass bowl cleaning solution kits I think you would be keeping every thing pretty sanitary. I can see this selling well on 2nd story and condo jobs.:thumbsup:


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## 1972plumber

I know these toilets have been around for more than 2 years.
Their track record is proven,they have been installed in major 
hotels and nursing homes,office buildings,homes and apartments. 
I know this cause I have installed them.
I have followed up with the maintenance person. They have
told me they have had no issues since the installation,in fact they 
have told me they have not had a overflow since also.My hats off
to the designers

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Bill

1972plumber, would be nice if your first post was in the intro area. Thanks.


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## 1972plumber

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


1972plumber said:


> I know these toilets have been around for more than 2 years.
> Their track record is proven,they have been installed in major
> hotels and nursing homes,office buildings,homes and apartments.
> I know this cause I have installed them.
> I have followed up with the maintenance person. They have
> told me they have had no issues since the installation,in fact they
> have told me they have not had a overflow since also.My hats off
> to the designers
> 
> :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## ILPlumber

1972plumber said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


What is that supposed to mean?

Go to http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/
and tell us a little about yourself.


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## saysflushable

*Something new*

If the cost is not huge and if it flushes good. I say good for these guys. I guess if they save one apartment from water damage they would pay for themselves. My biggest concern about a toilet is if a toilet seat bidet can fit on them- If not the toilet is a piece of junk


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## Redwood

Looking at the outlet of the bowl I see some people having great difficulty in getting it set properly...
All to often these miracle cures come from people outside the trade that don't have a clue...
BTW I know of a few Kohler low profile designs that will not overflow either...

I'll go with Protech's suggestion of a good toilet that doesn't clog like a Toto or, Caroma...


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## 1972plumber

Myself and a few other contractors, that have set these toilets have had no issues,same step as any other toilet.


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## Phat Cat

1972plumber said:


> Myself and a few other contractors, that have set these toilets have had no issues,same step as any other toilet.


An intro would be nice. First and only three posts responding to a toilet that is not very common seems suspicious.

Do you profit in any way for promoting these toilets?


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## Redwood

PlumbCrazy said:


> An intro would be nice. First and only three posts responding to a toilet that is not very common seems suspicious.
> 
> Do you profit in any way for promoting these toilets?


For some reason I share your suspicions... :laughing:


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## Phat Cat

Redwood said:


> For some reason I share your suspicions... :laughing:


I know the reason Red - Great minds think alike! :thumbsup:


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## Scott K

You know, perhaps not related to the topic at hand, but someone mentioned something about having a really good flushing toilet. They have 6 liter toilets now that can flush over 2 pounds of sh*t!

I could only imagine if these same guys who designed these 6 liter flushers, could try designing something that is 13.25 liters like it used to be, just to see how much they could flush with the technologies they have now. 

As for the overflow idea, not a bad idea. I don't see any issues with a plug up since if the trapway is plugged and there is an overflow then it will save many potential floods/clean ups. But at the end of the day someone still also needs to unclog it, usually with a plunger. But it's nice that you no longer need the physical spillage to indicate this is needed. I could only imagine the day when this is now required by codes and how much $$$ these guys will make in royalties (I could see it happening).


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## Redwood

Scott K said:


> As for the overflow idea, not a bad idea. I don't see any issues with a plug up since if the trapway is plugged and there is an overflow then it will save many potential floods/clean ups. But at the end of the day someone still also needs to unclog it, usually with a plunger. But it's nice that you no longer need the physical spillage to indicate this is needed. I could only imagine the day when this is now required by codes and how much $$$ these guys will make in royalties (I could see it happening).


Personally I don't think this is as big a deal as you think it is.

Most of todays toilets won't overflow anyway unless flushed a second time.
1.6 gallons fills the bowl up to the rim and thats about it.

Of course flushing a second time or having a 3.5 flapper installed will cause an overflow but I'd say thats a matter of "You can't fix Stupid."

This is just another invention that cures a problem that doesn't exist except in the mind of the inventor and those that he manages to convince there is a need for the product he's pushing.:whistling2:


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## Plumber Jim

very good point Red. If you install a new toilet it will be 1.6 gallons and shouldn't overflow anyways..


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## Phat Cat

We had a case where the fill valve was running wide open and flooded several condos. If the flapper had hung up, I wonder if the Penguin would have been able to keep up with it.

It is rare, but it does happen.


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## Redwood

PlumbCrazy said:


> We had a case where the fill valve was running wide open and flooded several condos. If the flapper had hung up, I wonder if the Penguin would have been able to keep up with it.
> 
> It is rare, but it does happen.


What generally happens in those cases is the water goes through the toilet and down the drain unless the overflow cannot keep up with the flow then the tank overflows and water hits the floor.

To have a clog at the instance the fill valve fails that is approaching low probability and really is not a bet that i would bother to place...


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## Phat Cat

I agree Red! However, there are customers (very few) who want to cover as much as they possibly can.

More than anything, it's peace of mind.


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## 1972plumber

I would like to respond to Plumb Crazy and Red Woods concerns on how I found this forum. One of my customers referred a woman to me, whos father
was at the beginning stages of alzheimers and he would accidentaly overflow the toilet on occasion.I told here about penguintoilets feature,and she had called me back confused about the site. When she used Google search engine
penguintoilets, she opened up a search engine that was from Plumbing Zone.
So when I got home I did the search myself to see what she was talking about and this forum was there, so I read a little and decided to join and post a comment. So thats why I only have three posts.

So there you have it, how I found this topic.


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## Phat Cat

Thank you 1972 for explaining. Glad to hear you have had success with them.

Have they been MAPP rated? If so, how many grams?


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## ILPlumber

And posting an introduction must be out of the question?


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## 1972plumber

*1972 plumber* 
I would like to introduce myself, I have 27 years experience in the plumber industry.
I went through the UA apprenticeship program.
I am a certified journeyman plumber, master plumber.
I taught plumbing systems for the UA for 10 years+
I am a certified plumbing inspector for the state of California and Michigan
I certified through ICC and IAPMO as a plumbing inspector.


How I first was introduced to this toilet was through a continuing education course held in the detroit area in which 70 inspectors were in attendance. 

We all went through this product thoroughly and addressed many issued.

The bottom line, we said "why didn't we think of this ourselves!"


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## Redwood

I'll put one of these on a Toto and call it a beauty...

Amazon.com: Toilet Tattoos TT-X607-O Happy Penguin Decorative Applique For Toilet Lid, Elongated: Home Improvement
:laughing:


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## Phat Cat

Redwood said:


> I'll put one of these on a Toto and call it a beauty...
> 
> Amazon.com: Toilet Tattoos TT-X607-O Happy Penguin Decorative Applique For Toilet Lid, Elongated: Home Improvement
> :laughing:


There ought to be a law against that and toilet lid covers! :yes:


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## 1972plumber

Redwood said:


> Personally I don't think this is as big a deal as you think it is.
> 
> Most of todays toilets won't overflow anyway unless flushed a second time.
> 1.6 gallons fills the bowl up to the rim and thats about it.
> 
> Of course flushing a second time or having a 3.5 flapper installed will cause an overflow but I'd say thats a matter of "You can't fix Stupid."
> 
> This is just another invention that cures a problem that doesn't exist except in the mind of the inventor and those that he manages to convince there is a need for the product he's pushing.:whistling2:


Redwood you are correct most or todays toilets wont overflow unless you flush them again, You said yourself (you cant fix stupid).

When the team from Penguintoilets did our continuing education class in Detroit for 70 inspectors, they knew the 1.6 will not overflow with one flush. 
There claim that major toilet overflows are caused when there is a
clog or obstruction happens in the main trap,and is not known and the person walks away, goes to work or goes to sleep and the flapper is warped or not seated enough from the water conditions ( calcium, Slim etc) the chain or handle hanging up. Over a period of hours this water then goes over the rim,then there can be a real problem.

How many times do we have a service call and it is a flapper (warped and needing to be replaced, or needing to have the flush valve seat cleaned off) kink in the chain etc.

I know I have seen these calls often over the years, Anyone else?


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## sandpiper plumb

funny reading this one; I was just over my wife's friends house, on saturday her toilet was clogged by her 17 year old son, her daughter went to the rest room next, and said she saw clear water, she used the toilet 1.6 gal flush and flushed the toilet, and it started to overflow, as she panicked hitting the handle the chain stuck and the flapper was wide open over flowing onto the 2nd floor down to the first floor kitchen, the bids as of today are from $50K-70K.


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## Phat Cat

Does not take long to rack up thousands of dollars of damage. 

Try spilling just a little water on a Pergo floor that is not properly sealed.


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## 1972plumber

PC 
I hear that


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## Optimus Primer

stupid question. Does a 1.6 even dump enough water from one normal flush to overflow? I've backed up a few and have never had one overflow.


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## Redwood

house plumber said:


> stupid question. Does a 1.6 even dump enough water from one normal flush to overflow? I've backed up a few and have never had one overflow.


Nope!
Gotta flush it twice to make it happen unless the toilet has a leaking flapper or, fill valve that doesn't shut off...


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## Optimus Primer

Thats what I thought. So what would be the benefit of that water closet from penguin then? If you ask me chances are if that water closet is going to overflow, the toilet paper would plug the overflow holes anyway. Stupid design.


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## Optimus Primer

1972plumber said:


> Redwood you are correct most or todays toilets wont overflow unless you flush them again, You said yourself (you cant fix stupid).
> 
> When the team from Penguintoilets did our continuing education class in Detroit for 70 inspectors, they knew the 1.6 will not overflow with one flush.
> There claim that major toilet overflows are caused when there is a
> clog or obstruction happens in the main trap,and is not known and the person walks away, goes to work or goes to sleep and the flapper is warped or not seated enough from the water conditions ( calcium, Slim etc) the chain or handle hanging up. Over a period of hours this water then goes over the rim,then there can be a real problem.
> 
> How many times do we have a service call and it is a flapper (warped and needing to be replaced, or needing to have the flush valve seat cleaned off) kink in the chain etc.
> 
> I know I have seen these calls often over the years, Anyone else?


 
I didnt read any replies to this thread. I guess I should have. But this same thing happened to bayside500. He flushed in the morning and came home to water through out his house. he didnt check to make sure it was good before he left for work.


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## Phat Cat

house plumber said:


> Thats what I thought. So what would be the benefit of that water closet from penguin then? If you ask me chances are if that water closet is going to overflow, the toilet paper would plug the overflow holes anyway. Stupid design.


Did you watch the video? Highly unlikely to clog all the holes.

It may not happen often that a toilet clogs at the same time that a fill valve malfunctions or a flapper is hung up, but it does happen. And when it happens in a condo building, it is very expensive!

We have seen it more than once in an unoccupied unit. Most recent was on the third floor, flooded three units. Malfunctioning fill valve. Unit was vacant, 2nd floor (no one home), 1st floor (away on vacation), unit next to 1st floor unit was getting water on his floor. He thought his neighbors water heater had busted. The units were destroyed.


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