# Anyone here familar with Mass. plumbing code?



## Smitten_kitten (Sep 8, 2011)

Unfortunatley here in Massachusetts we run off state code so ours is different then alot of other states but i think the foundation of our code is based off the IRC.

Anyhow i have been pouring over my code book latley and i have a couple months to school starts but have some code questions. I wasn't sure if anyone here was specifically from massachusetts but that would be great luck if there was.

Anyhow question on check valves- "check valves shall not be installed in the cold water supply to any hot water heater unless special permission from the board" Except thermal check valves are allowed they are Check valves "with a minimum 1/8in diameter hole in the clapper"


What the heck is the 1/8 hole for? doesn't that seem to defeat the purpose. What are they worried about a closed system? There are no "open systems" anymore though meters have check valves in them, PRV ETC... why the need for this code???

And if this is such a concern why isn't it mandatory for Expansion tanks on every system? its just reccommended but no one does it...


----------



## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Are you absolutely sure your meters have checks in them?

Meters having integral checks have almost reached 'Urban Legend' status among Plumbers here in Seattle. I have to chuckle every time I hear it repeated. Our meters here in Seattle don't have integral check valves.

I'm not saying yours don't, btw, I'm just asking if you're sure.

As for the no check valve on the cold side of a HT tank connection goes, I have to wonder how you guys pipe in hot water circ. systems; What prevents the pumped hot water from the return line from entering the cold feed?


----------



## Smitten_kitten (Sep 8, 2011)

I am pretty sure they have checks in them... though really im not sure as Code for water mains differ from town to town. I just figured they did as I have heard a million people say so. But they could all be wrong. Maybe i could call the water department and ask ha? 

I also thought that PRV had checks until i just went to watts website and saw they make their PRV's with thermal expansion bypasses. 

As for re-circulation lines I have never done one don't really understand how to even set one up... but I've seen them and they have check valves many check valves. Maybe those are the thermal check valves the code is talking about.

However it makes little sense even to me.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Smitten_kitten said:


> I am pretty sure they have checks in them... though really im not sure as Code for water mains differ from town to town. I just figured they did as I have heard a million people say so. But they could all be wrong. Maybe i could call the water department and ask ha?
> 
> I also thought that PRV had checks until i just went to watts website and saw they make their PRV's with thermal expansion bypasses.
> 
> ...


 Huh???


----------



## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

I'm from Illinois. If we create a closed system by installation of checks (either for a circ system or check at the meter) then we must install a properly sized tank to address thermal expansion.

Seeing how you worded your statement, it seems to address the supply to the water heater directly not a statement on the water service to the structure.
I would think the 1/8" hole is an attempt to address thermal expansion at the water heater with installation of this type of valve and is approved by your jurisdiction without prior approval. 
If you do not use this type of valve then you would need to submit what type (and in Illinois submit text and design) you intend to use for approval prior installation. Of course that being said if there is a check at the meter thermal expansion still needs to be addressed.


----------



## Smitten_kitten (Sep 8, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Huh???


hah wow its bad when i dont even know what i was saying :thumbup:

I guess what im pulling from this is that the code was Specifically stating that NO checkvalves on Cold supplies to water heaters. That still allows me to Tap in my recirc line to the drain and put a spring check on the bottom before the pump. That in no way violates code.


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Smitten_kitten said:


> hah wow its bad when i dont even know what i was saying :thumbup:
> 
> I guess what im pulling from this is that the code was Specifically stating that NO checkvalves on Cold supplies to water heaters. That still allows me to Tap in my recirc line to the drain and put a spring check on the bottom before the pump. That in no way violates code.


Your going to have to have a check on the recirc., I use a swing not a spring.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

I don't use check valve or pump on 90% of the recirc jobs I do.


----------



## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> I don't use check valve or pump on 90% of the recirc jobs I do.


Time for an ISO drawing.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

ISO??? In Search Of???


----------



## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> ISO??? In Search Of???


Isometric.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> Isometric.


Oh... learning something new today... 
About the ISO.. don't know how to post pixs or drawing form my pos phone... but you can find some 1900 heating books explaining gravity heating systems..


----------



## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Oh... learning something new today...
> About the ISO.. don't know how to post pixs or drawing form my pos phone... but you can find some 1900 heating books explaining gravity heating systems..



Gravity is not my friend.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> Gravity is not my friend.


If it wasn't for gravity, plumbing wouldn't work...


----------



## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

We used to have a guy from Mass here, but he got banned.


----------



## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

+
I'm from mass. We use check valves on recerc lines all the time. I've never used a check on a cold water supply anyway. Small hot water heaters have built in checks for whatever that's worth.The new water heater /slash hydronic coil requires 1 that is drilled out for expansion. 

If you are going to take the test I strongly recommend Hugh Whites cape cod plumbing school crash course before the test. They drill the questions into you right before you take it.


----------



## Smitten_kitten (Sep 8, 2011)

fightnews said:


> +
> I'm from mass. We use check valves on recerc lines all the time. I've never used a check on a cold water supply anyway. Small hot water heaters have built in checks for whatever that's worth.The new water heater /slash hydronic coil requires 1 that is drilled out for expansion.
> 
> If you are going to take the test I strongly recommend Hugh Whites cape cod plumbing school crash course before the test. They drill the questions into you right before you take it.


 
Cool another mass guy. And yes good advice I am going to that school its now Masters Plumbing and Gasfitting run by keith farnum who is a really knowledgeable teacher. 

fightnews were in mass your from anyway... also when you mention the WH/hydronic coil are you talking about an intergrated system? hot water heater/air handler....


----------



## Smitten_kitten (Sep 8, 2011)

SlickRick said:


> Your going to have to have a check on the recirc., I use a swing not a spring.


Slick i must admit i know very little about re-circ systems i really havent been a plumber that long. But from what i have read most people seem to recommend spring checks as they open softer, and don't get all jammed up with sediments until the clapper is wont seat and close. It seems re-circs are constantly plauged by sediment issues especially if piped from the bottom of the heater due to the pump pulling hot water out and with it minerals.

but why do you prefere swing checks?


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Smitten_kitten said:


> Slick i must admit i know very little about re-circ systems i really havent been a plumber that long. But from what i have read most people seem to recommend spring checks as they open softer, and don't get all jammed up with sediments until the clapper is wont seat and close. It seems re-circs are constantly plauged by sediment issues especially if piped from the bottom of the heater due to the pump pulling hot water out and with it minerals.
> 
> but why do you prefere swing checks?


That's one I don't have a reason, other than back in the day, I worked for a mech. contractor that was a mech. engineer. We always used swing checks on our hospital work and actually drilled a 1/8" hole in the "clapper" to allow for thermal expansion. And we have never had a problem.

But I have never seen a spring check used any where I have worked in Texas.
Others may have.


----------



## Tim`s Plumbing (Jan 17, 2012)

I am from Mass and have installed alot of recirc lines for hot water heaters. I have never installed the connection at the cold water feed with out a check valve and I have never had an inspector ask me it it had the 1/8 hole in the check. Most of the time I like to run the recirc line to the drain valve connection though.


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Tim`s Plumbing said:


> I am from Mass and have installed alot of recirc lines for hot water heaters. I have never installed the connection at the cold water feed with out a check valve and I have never had an inspector ask me it it had the 1/8 hole in the check. Most of the time I like to run the recirc line to the drain valve connection though.


The 1/8" hole was under the direction of the owner of the co. Like I said he was a mech. engineer and had his reasons. Do you use spring or swing?


----------



## Tim`s Plumbing (Jan 17, 2012)

SlickRick said:


> The 1/8" hole was under the direction of the owner of the co. Like I said he was a mech. engineer and had his reasons. Do you use spring or swing?


 I perfer a spring check due to the fact a swing check can chatter at times. But I am refering to the 1/8" hole being Mass code.


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

The other forum has a thread on the swing or spring, most prefer swing.


----------



## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Tim`s Plumbing said:


> I am from Mass and have installed alot of recirc lines for hot water heaters. I have never installed the connection at the cold water feed with out a check valve and I have never had an inspector ask me it it had the 1/8 hole in the check. Most of the time I like to run the recirc line to the drain valve connection though.


I don't like to run to the drain valve connection -- It seems to me it just stirs up and suspends all of the crap and detritus in the bottom of the tank.


----------



## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Widdershins said:


> I don't like to run to the drain valve connection -- It seems to me it just stirs up and suspends all of the crap and detritus in the bottom of the tank.


If it is a gravity system there usually isn't a whole lot of choice.


----------



## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

Smitten_kitten said:


> Cool another mass guy. And yes good advice I am going to that school its now Masters Plumbing and Gasfitting run by keith farnum who is a really knowledgeable teacher.
> 
> fightnews were in mass your from anyway... also when you mention the WH/hydronic coil are you talking about an intergrated system? hot water heater/air handler....


yeah I'm from the south shore and yes that's what I'm talking about . I haven't done one but I got the sketch at continuing ed and have seen them installed.


----------



## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

SlickRick said:


> The 1/8" hole was under the direction of the owner of the co. Like I said he was a mech. engineer and had his reasons. Do you use spring or swing?


Not sure but the 1/8th inch hole is actually mass plumbing code in a certain installation. Not sure how they can verify it but whatever.


----------



## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

Tim`s Plumbing said:


> I am from Mass and have installed alot of recirc lines for hot water heaters. I have never installed the connection at the cold water feed with out a check valve and I have never had an inspector ask me it it had the 1/8 hole in the check. Most of the time I like to run the recirc line to the drain valve connection though.


No me either, The 1/8th inch hole is for a specific installation of a particular system that's new.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

fightnews said:


> Not sure but the 1/8th inch hole is actually mass plumbing code in a certain installation. Not sure how they can verify it but whatever.


 Whole lotta of bs with the checkvalve, hole drilled in cvalve defend the purpose of the check valve so why bother putting it in first place??? For expanison control, install the expanison tank!!


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

fightnews said:


> Not sure but the 1/8th inch hole is actually mass plumbing code in a certain installation. Not sure how they can verify it but whatever.


It would be interesting to know when they require it if you get a chance to find out. IPC doesn't require it.


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

rjbphd said:


> Whole lotta of bs with the checkvalve, hole drilled in cvalve defend the purpose of the check valve so why bother putting it in first place??? For expanison control, install the expanison tank!!


Thermal expansion devices were not required back when we drilled the 1/8" hole. It does not affect the recirc. system in a negative way, I have seen it done too many times.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

SlickRick said:


> Thermal expansion devices were not required back when we drilled the 1/8" hole. It does not affect the recirc. system in a negative way, I have seen it done too many times.


 So tell me how many check valve you see on the gravity hot water system??


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

rjbphd said:


> So tell me how many check valve you see on the gravity hot water system??


Iv'e never seen a gravity system, I had to draw a iso. when I took my journeyman's exam in '77. I didn't realize we were talking about a gravity system.


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I'm sure ZL700 can shed some light on the 1/8" hole if he sees this thread.

I sent him a PM and ask him to check it out next time he was online.


----------



## 1bddelx (Aug 18, 2012)

We always installed swing checks on gravity circs


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

1bddelx said:


> We always installed swing checks on gravity circs


What for??? For WHAT purpose??? Pretty obvoius(sp) for those does it don't have a clue about hydronic heating systems.


----------



## Smitten_kitten (Sep 8, 2011)

I have a guess what the 1/8 hole could be for

Its for protecting the recirc pump from airlock. Im taking this from what i know about sump pumps. Their both pumps so i'd imagine the same theory applies. In sump pumps airlocks are problem as the pump can over pump before the switch kick off pulling air into the impeller chamber. so somtimes people drill holes in the check valves so there is no chance that the system can get airlocked as the water drains back into the pump. 


I'd imagine this to be true even more so for a small recirc pump. If the recirc line were to pull air into the impeller chamber it would damage the the impeller and all of its bearings as the bearings would heat up quick as it struggled to push the air out especially with no water to cool its bearings. And if the pump didn't have the power to push out the air then it definatley would not have the power to open the check which allows water to circulate. 

so the 1/8 hole allows for water to circulate through the system and the pump and makes sure air doesn't lock up and damage the impeller assembly....??? 

this is all hypothetical but it sounds right in my head ha


----------



## 1bddelx (Aug 18, 2012)

So there were no issues of drawing backwards. We always tied into the bottom of the heater too. Pump systems a check on top, gravity check on bottom Did it that way for 30 plus years. Also we always put a 3/4 ball valve in right at the drain then a tee and a hosebib. It was the easiest way to start the gravity circ. Shut off the 3/4 valve open the hosebib and blow all the air out shazzamm circ is running. Only on gravity though


----------



## Smitten_kitten (Sep 8, 2011)

I would love to see a drawing of a correctly done recirc system... that be great if anyone has one


----------



## 1bddelx (Aug 18, 2012)

Smitten_kitten said:


> I would love to see a drawing of a correctly done recirc system... that be great if anyone has one


 
There are a few different correct ways to do them. I preferred returning mine to the bottom so I wasnt recirculating luke warm water all the time. Just my 2 cents


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

1bddelx said:


> There are a few different correct ways to do them. I preferred returning mine to the bottom so I wasnt recirculating luke warm water all the time. Just my 2 cents


 There's only one way to do it..the right way.. pipe as you would like hydronic gravity system.. no check valve or pump bullsh1ts..


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

rjbphd said:


> There's only one way to do it..the right way.. pipe as you would like hydronic gravity system.. no check valve or pump bullsh1ts..


Are you saying all the recirc. systems with pumps are BS.?


----------



## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

heck if you ran all of the hot lines through the attic for a gravity recirc system, you could turn off the water heater for a good part of the year around here.


----------



## Smitten_kitten (Sep 8, 2011)

Gravity system works best?? how come we don't heat our houses that way then?? 

What the issue with using a pump? seems the most efficent to me and controllable.


----------



## 1bddelx (Aug 18, 2012)

I dont like pumps myself but sometimes we have to use them, If gravity works use it but we always had to use a check or the closet lav, shower, bidet whatever would get luke warm not hot water because the water was pulling backwards from the bottom of the tank. A check at the return on the bottom prevents this.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

SlickRick said:


> Are you saying all the recirc. systems with pumps are BS.?


No... a simple water heater recric line won't need pump.. I've done a 3 story home with baths at each end, each have their own rec line back to heater, as well each have trottling valve so the longest line will have instat hot water.
For those are installed incorrectly will needs low volume pump.


----------



## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Reading quickly this has turned into 2 subjects
1. Check valve on cold fill to water heater
2. Check valves on returns for domestic recirculation

1. 
Purpose of hole in check valve on cold water service is to relieve thermal expansion back to street. Meters don't have checks, and many PRV's earlier models could relieve excess pressure to street. Of course now and most water services are being or have been upgraded, we are finding more checks or double checks being used at the street connections. Making the weep hole checks useless, requiring other means of thermal expansion control. 

2. 
Regarding DHW recirculation, pumped I feel softseat spring checks are best. Gravity systems I feel tilted seat swing checks work best, piped into bottom at drain port to use natural convection of burner to create gravity flow. When horizontal swing checks are added to gravity systems, mounted on a horizontal line, the old timers drilled a small hole in them to keep them from chattering.

As Rick mentioned the small hole he was taught was to keep them quiet when pressure fluctuations occurred between hot and cold, along with recirc line.


----------



## 1bddelx (Aug 18, 2012)

When horizontal swing checks are added to gravity systems, mounted on a horizontal line, the old timers drilled a small hole in them to keep them from chattering.


Yes they would either chatter or swing shut hard as hell.


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Here is a decent drawing

http://www.nachi.org/forum/attachments/f22/30875d1250177520-timer-connected-water-heater-capture.jpg


----------



## 1bddelx (Aug 18, 2012)

SlickRick said:


> Here is a decent drawing
> 
> http://www.nachi.org/forum/attachments/f22/30875d1250177520-timer-connected-water-heater-capture.jpg


 
Perfect


----------



## Smitten_kitten (Sep 8, 2011)

awsome thanks for the drawing Slick, too bad their isn't a library archive full of sketches and drawings for systems that would be awsome.

But I get to put the sketch to real life. I got cleareance with the parents to put a recirc line in our house as were going to redo our bathrooms so im going to be able to cut some holes and take advantage of ripped down walls and floors. I think im going to pipe it through a mixing valve though as we got nasty well water and i want that HW tank burning at 150 killing legonialla and all sorts of nasty stuff thats probably in our 10 foot well. 

So fair warning this wont be the end of RE-circ line posts from me.


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

That's what we're here for, to help each other.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Smitten_kitten said:


> awsome thanks for the drawing Slick, too bad their isn't a library archive full of sketches and drawings for systems that would be awsome.
> 
> But I get to put the sketch to real life. I got cleareance with the parents to put a recirc line in our house as were going to redo our bathrooms so im going to be able to cut some holes and take advantage of ripped down walls and floors. I think im going to pipe it through a mixing valve though as we got nasty well water and i want that HW tank burning at 150 killing legonialla and all sorts of nasty stuff thats probably in our 10 foot well.
> 
> So fair warning this wont be the end of RE-circ line posts from me.


 Since the hot supply will feed the lav faucet nearby, make sure it pitched upward to faucet. Connect the return line just below the hot water side of T/S valve to remove any air in pipe. While u are ahead, install precharged air chambers on both supply.. with the 'crappy' well water you have, hope you are installing MOENTROL T/S valve!


----------



## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Ten foot well you say? Install a carbon block filter, chlorination system and contact tank and that will kill any bacteria, you could even install a uv light after the chlorination system.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> Ten foot well you say? Install a carbon block filter, chlorination system and contact tank and that will kill any bacteria, you could even install a uv light after the chlorination system.
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


Water Right Santizer unit will do the job as well..


----------



## Smitten_kitten (Sep 8, 2011)

Mississippiplum said:


> Ten foot well you say? Install a carbon block filter, chlorination system and contact tank and that will kill any bacteria, you could even install a uv light after the chlorination system.
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


 
ha RJ im gonna be needing alot more help than that if im gonna do this right! But thats what so great about parents their still going to love me regardless. Their the perfect test subjects... Ahhh i remeber Not too long ago when i first got my apprentice liscence i Built them an outside shower trying to give back and do something reall nice for them as a thank you for putting up with me for 21 years. Unforutnatley i ended up putting the valve in upside down ughhhhh. It has an arrow that points UP how did i point it down???? any way just switched that out for them and put in a beautiful new symmons in as the old shower didnt mix hot and cold due to it being upside down. But the best part is that my parents are so awsome and overwhelmingly supportive they think im like the best plumber to ever grace the earth cuz i didnt put the valve in upside down.



Missiplum we do have a pretty hardcore system in place. its called a perfector system. I think its a little to old school cuz its based so much on flow values of the well to clean and back wash properly and if that gets compromised so does the system. This is how our system goes- Water enters house goes through i think some kind of Micronizer?? then the water enters into an aerotor/precipitator tank, then that goes into 2 diff Settling tank one that is full of media and gravel then it goes into the softener. 

But I wanted to put something in that would kill or catch any micro-organisms that could be in our shallow well.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Smitten_kitten said:


> ha RJ im gonna be needing alot more help than that if im gonna do this right! But thats what so great about parents their still going to love me regardless. Their the perfect test subjects... Ahhh i remeber Not too long ago when i first got my apprentice liscence i Built them an outside shower trying to give back and do something reall nice for them as a thank you for putting up with me for 21 years. Unforutnatley i ended up putting the valve in upside down ughhhhh. It has an arrow that points UP how did i point it down???? any way just switched that out for them and put in a beautiful new symmons in as the old shower didnt mix hot and cold due to it being upside down. But the best part is that my parents are so awsome and overwhelmingly supportive they think im like the best plumber to ever grace the earth cuz i didnt put the valve in upside down.
> 
> Missiplum we do have a pretty hardcore system in place. its called a perfector system. I think its a little to old school cuz its based so much on flow values of the well to clean and back wash properly and if that gets compromised so does the system. This is how our system goes- Water enters house goes through i think some kind of Micronizer?? then the water enters into an aerotor/precipitator tank, then that goes into 2 diff Settling tank one that is full of media and gravel then it goes into the softener.
> 
> But I wanted to put something in that would kill or catch any micro-organisms that could be in our shallow well.


 Well, if you keep learning from ur mistakes, u'll get ahead... Micronizer is frowned around here with iron bacterica in water, will promote bacterica growth by injecting air into sytem as well plug up the pipes, very high maintence items.. google Water Right water treatment and you'll see the Santiziner unit can remove both iron, hardness, for some, control the ph level and santizied the unit every time when regenrated..


----------



## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Rip that trash out and put in a chlorination system. With water that bad chlorine will be your friend. Water goes from pressure tank through flow switch to injector then to retention tank, from retention tank to carbon block filter then through UV light and finally to softener then into house- the retention tank, heads and mineral tanks for softener and carbon block filter should be made by clack. 

I would check out water right to as Rjbphd suggested as they make quality equipment as well.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


----------



## myakka (Jun 15, 2011)

Depending on how close to Camp Edwards you are you may have aviation fuel in your shallow well too.Why not talk to a couple of local well diggers. You may have the opportunity for a deep well with better water quality. I had a deep well on the other side of the bridge and had fantastic water.
Good luck
Mike


----------

