# Navian #1



## smellslike$tome

*Navien #1*

No, I am not proclaiming the preeminence of Navien, far from it. I am however installing my 1st Navien tomorrow morning. 

Yesterday afternoon I sold a Noritz NR 98 DVC and had no choice but to schedule it for Thursday. Today I installed another NR 98 DVC and so the other one had to be done tomorrow. Well we get a call this morning from the ho saying that she was going with another quote (even though she had already signed on the dotted line with me). I stop what I'm doing and call her. I begin to contrast the things I know about Navien with the things I know about Noritz with her. The other quote, however, is about $400 less for a condensing unit than my quote for a non-condensing (it was either a low ball quote or a quote by someone who does not yet know how to price this work). Anyway I've already ordered everything at this point and the schedule was clear to accommodate this install which means if I don't do this install then I have nothing to do.

I try first to offer an upgrade to the NRC 111 at my original price. I think I'm tempting her but in the end it just doesn't fly. Ultimately I have to offer to match the other offer (something I would not ordinarily do) or lose the job.

I guess it was because, in my mind, I had already taken ownership of this job yesterday afternoon and was unwilling to give it back if I could help it. I wound up offering to honor the other quote with the only concession being that I will be doing an outside install about 10' from the gas meter. I still have to run a return line for the recirc through a crawl space but that's better than the other guys plan. He was going to leave the unit in the bathroom closet where the existing wh is, go horizontally through the wall for combustion air and replace the vertical b vent through the roof with sch 40 pvc. He also would have had to run about 40' of 1/2" semi rigid copper tubing for the gas supply (2 psig) and a return line back to the other side of the house. Sale price was $3325. I haven't done one that cheap in about a year and a half and wouldn't have done this one so cheap except that I already had the deal inked and didn't want to give it up.

Ok so all of you Navien people, anything special I need to know?


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## rex

hot on the left cold on the right.....

NAVIEN.....


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## smellslike$tome

Yeah, I caught that after the fact and was too lazy to change it, sue me. 

Got any helpful info about the install or the product?


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## smellslike$tome

Better?


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## fhrace

Take some pictures?


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## smellslike$tome

*I was not impressed.*

1. This thing seems very loud to me.

2. The remote was busted right out of the box. Read the warranty info which says pretty much that they will replace the parts and pay whatever labor they feel like paying and I'm sure that that labor rate will not cover the 1.5 hours I stood around waiting for a return phone call from "tech support".

3. I did not like having to fiddle around with dip switches in order to set it up for external recirculation. This was no big deal really but never having done it before, it took me a little time to make sure I was doing it correctly.

4. Don't know how the weight compares to other condensing units but it seemed big and bulky compared to the N0751DVC I'm used to installing.

5. Didn't see any kind of clip for the condensate drain hose they provided. It was difficult to get on and I'm not sure it will stay there.

6. Under the conditions in which I installed it, it should produce, according to Navien, 7.7 gpms. I have no way of knowing for sure because the remote was broken and even if it worked I saw no instructions anywhere on how to access a maintenance monitor if one even exists. Anyway I am VERY confident that this unit did not produce 7.7 gpm. This was a 2 bath house. There was a very noticeable reduction in flow when a third fixture was added to two tubs.

7. This was an outdoor install so the venting was no big deal but this becomes more labor intensive when running both combustion air as well as vent when it's installed in an interior room. This would be troublesome with any condensing unit however, so that is nothing special to Navien.

8. I don't know if the recirc system works or not since in order to set the timer you must have a working remote.

9. I really wonder about the efficiency claims. If the projected flow rate is inaccurate, how can I believe in the efficiency claims.

10. Hooking up the broken remote was a pain in the arse. You get two bare ended wires coming from the control board and two more bare ended wires (about 4" long) coming from the remote. The remote can't be installed outside (not that I would anyway) but the orange wire coming from the board is not nearly long enough (maybe about 4', I don't know because I didn't measure).


I installed this unit because it was either Navien or nothing. Next time it might be nothing.


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## breid1903

next time it MIGHT be nothing. i love it. might. you will do it again. breid...............:rockon:


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## smellslike$tome

breid1903 said:


> next time it MIGHT be nothing. i love it. might. you will do it again. breid...............:rockon:


Only if they absolutely refuse to listen to reason and are yet willing to show me the money.

I can say emphatically though that it won't be done at that price again.


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## Tankless

I fricken love it!!

It doesn't get much easier after a few more!!

All your points are right on as well.
Bad remote? Yeah pal....I got that:









Don't expect anything in terms of payment to replace it.
They are loud, and obnoxiously heavy. 

The dip switches are lame....in this day in age, we still have dip switches? That is right out of the 1970's and it is a PITA to make sure everything is set correctly. 

Recirc will not work until the remote is working, and you have programmed it. Think the stupid dip switches (Takagi) were bad? Wait till you have to set the schedule. There is no monitor from the remote....it's a very dumb system....again poor engineering.

You can see the GPM by pressing and holding the button on the left for a few seconds. There are two buttons....like just push buttons, kinda in the middle of the board, off to the left center. I have never pushed the right one. But that one on the left will take you through about 5 or 6 pages of data that is displated on the clock counter. The first one will be GPM, than one or two, than it will be the incoming temp than the output temp. Have fun watching this thing try and maintain a stable output.....

There is no clip or any kind of connector for the condensate hose. Just sort of thread it on backwards. These units condense a lot more than the Noritz units do and the PH level is really high, so careful where you discharge. Old cast will get worked real quick....within a few years I'd say.

Remember how this job came about with this client....make sure your paperwork is in order so you do not marry the unit. You have a 60% chance for a guaranteed call back, dot your Eye's!!

Now you have a little window into why I hate these F-ing POS units so much.

I assume you know better, but I'll remind you.....what ALWAYS happens when we give people a break, or more for the money or an extra favor? They always want more, and like a stupid kitten, they expect it now. Cash that check and burn the invoice :laughing::yes:




smellslike$tome said:


> 1. This thing seems very loud to me.
> 
> 2. The remote was busted right out of the box. Read the warranty info which says pretty much that they will replace the parts and pay whatever labor they feel like paying and I'm sure that that labor rate will not cover the 1.5 hours I stood around waiting for a return phone call from "tech support".
> 
> 3. I did not like having to fiddle around with dip switches in order to set it up for external recirculation. This was no big deal really but never having done it before, it took me a little time to make sure I was doing it correctly.
> 
> 4. Don't know how the weight compares to other condensing units but it seemed big and bulky compared to the N0751DVC I'm used to installing.
> 
> 5. Didn't see any kind of clip for the condensate drain hose they provided. It was difficult to get on and I'm not sure it will stay there.
> 
> 6. Under the conditions in which I installed it, it should produce, according to Navien, 7.7 gpms. I have no way of knowing for sure because the remote was broken and even if it worked I saw no instructions anywhere on how to access a maintenance monitor if one even exists. Anyway I am VERY confident that this unit did not produce 7.7 gpm. This was a 2 bath house. There was a very noticeable reduction in flow when a third fixture was added to two tubs.
> 
> 7. This was an outdoor install so the venting was no big deal but this becomes more labor intensive when running both combustion air as well as vent when it's installed in an interior room. This would be troublesome with any condensing unit however, so that is nothing special to Navien.
> 
> 8. I don't know if the recirc system works or not since in order to set the timer you must have a working remote.
> 
> 9. I really wonder about the efficiency claims. If the projected flow rate is inaccurate, how can I believe in the efficiency claims.
> 
> 10. Hooking up the broken remote was a pain in the arse. You get two bare ended wires coming from the control board and two more bare ended wires (about 4" long) coming from the remote. The remote can't be installed outside (not that I would anyway) but the orange wire coming from the board is not nearly long enough (maybe about 4', I don't know because I didn't measure).
> 
> 
> I installed this unit because it was either Navien or nothing. Next time it might be nothing.


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## SewerRatz

I been flat out refusing to install these units. I rather turn down the work than install something and "marry" the unit as Tankless puts it. I will give them other options but some people fall for all the hype out there that Navien and its reps are spewing.


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## ZL700

No reason to install the remote, especially when it is outside. The DIP switches would control the internal/external circulation feature without the remote, along with temps, but only in 10 degree increments without remote. 

Show me a tankless without DIP switches please?

You didn't expect a condensing unit with an extra heat exchanger both made with stainless not to be heavier?

The remote is sandwiched inside Styrofoam, what did you do drop the unit on it or step on it?


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## Asparta

The Naivien is a great unit, but I would only buy commercial units. If they are setup correctly, and installed/plumbed correctly there will be no issues with the working's of the unit. I have put in 6 of these and no call backs. I am in Canada too, so the groundwater in winter is FREEZING ASS COLD! Still no issues. Don't sell a tankless unless the input is 199,000 BTU or higher. It's just the way they work. You don't size these as minimum requirments. You size for bigger than what you need. Dip switches get set and then y0ou never touch them again! Also, you don't set the dip switches for "external recirculation". That doesn't mean recirc line. You just ahve to turn the switch in behind the pump on the diverting valve. It says "IN" and "OUT" on it. Turn it, and that's all you have to do for re-circ line. 
I really wish ppl would stop blaming these units, and start blaming poor installations.

Just my 2 cents


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## Asparta

Also, when setting up any tankless, for one thing, avoid using them if you are on a well, also, when filling the unit/system, get all air out from available bleed tubes, and turn on all hot faucets and let unit run 10 minutes. This allows the unit to "learn" the maximum flow it needs to make up. 
Also, you are not allowed hotter water than 170 degrees in a drainage system, and by code not hotter than 120 degrees to a shower. So 120 degrees setting on the unit is plenty.


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## smellslike$tome

ZL700 said:


> No reason to install the remote, especially when it is outside. The DIP switches would control the internal/external circulation feature without the remote, along with temps, but only in 10 degree increments without remote.
> 
> Show me a tankless without DIP switches please?
> 
> You didn't expect a condensing unit with an extra heat exchanger both made with stainless not to be heavier?
> 
> The remote is sandwiched inside Styrofoam, what did you do drop the unit on it or step on it?


Wrong, wrong, wrong!

Maybe you know something Navien doesn't. Enlighten me, just exactly how do you program the timer for the external recirc without the remote or do you suggest that the recirc should just run continuously until it finally burns up? Navien seems to think it is necessary according to their published owner's manual. Tell me why a ho would want to spend that sort of money for something that claims to be 98% efficient, only to turn around and throw every bit of that efficiency away (plus some since not even a tank burns all the time) by continuously heating and recirculating water 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. 

With respect to it being big and bulky, well, it is. The CR 240A weighs 86 pounds vs. Noritz NRC 111 which weighs 74 lbs and the CR 240 A is 1.4" narrower but is 3.8" taller and 6.5" deeper. 

As for the styrofoam encased remote, when I opened the box there was something very similar to the pic that Tankless posted, staring up at me. It was busted right out of the box. Now maybe you just toss those pesky remotes aside since they are so unnecessary, but my customer paid for it and she will receive it. Insult my intelligence all you want, it doesn't change the fact that this is an inferior product.

P.S. with respect to the recirc, I'm still not even sure it will operate at all until the timer is set. If I'm Navien I want to promote the heck out of my recirc system but I certainly don't want it running 24/7 which would result in a lot of unhappy people, if not from premature pump failure then certainly when they see their gas bill. Maybe it can, I'm not sure, but I'm betting no.


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## smellslike$tome

Asparta said:


> The Naivien is a great unit, but I would only buy commercial units. If they are setup correctly, and installed/plumbed correctly there will be no issues with the working's of the unit. I have put in 6 of these and no call backs. I am in Canada too, so the groundwater in winter is FREEZING ASS COLD! Still no issues. Don't sell a tankless unless the input is 199,000 BTU or higher. It's just the way they work. You don't size these as minimum requirments. You size for bigger than what you need. Dip switches get set and then y0ou never touch them again! Also, you don't set the dip switches for "external recirculation". That doesn't mean recirc line. You just ahve to turn the switch in behind the pump on the diverting valve. It says "IN" and "OUT" on it. Turn it, and that's all you have to do for re-circ line.
> I really wish ppl would stop blaming these units, and start blaming poor installations.
> 
> Just my 2 cents


Well that pretty much leaves residential home owners out in the cold doesn't it. We do not install commercial appliances in single family dwellings.

Oh yeah, you are just as wrong as the other guy. In order to place the unit in external circulation mode you must open the 3 way valve AND SET THE DIP SWITCHES TO EXTERNAL CIRCULATION. I wonder how many people you have left thinking they have external circulation set up when they don't. 

When all else fails gentlemen, read the install instructions and the owners manual, especially before you show up lecturing me. 

My opinion of Navien has not changed.

P.S. Refer to page 28 of the Navien Owner's Operation Manual


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## ZL700

Wow your panties are in a bunch

So you know DIP switch 4 up, 5 down is internal circ, 4 down and 5 up is external circ, the difference between the two is the delta t of on/off operation. 

External circ DIP position raises circ off temp read at inlet thermistor of buffer tank so that unit doesn't cycle and ext circ line will lose temp faster than unit, whereas internal circ shuts off at near set point of unit. Also you need to be informed that circ doesn't run 24/7, it cycles and samples the water to read the circ line temps. This happens more frequently when set to external circ. And yes circ will work without remote connected. 

"With respect to it being big and bulky, well, it is. The CR 240A weighs 86 pounds vs. Noritz NRC 111 which weighs 74 lbs and the CR 240 A is 1.4" narrower but is 3.8" taller and 6.5" deeper."

Show me a Noritz unit with a circ and buffer tank in it that is smaller and lighter, and you will have a valid argument!

Oh by the way, the CR 240A hasn't been available since December, its a NR240A


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## Asparta

The dip switch information about recirc comes from Navien tech himself. Installed them this way and water circulates as it should. The operator's manual is not as clear as it should be. Has anyone taken a Navien repair course? 

I have not left anyone complaining about their system not working. I have ot had all the issues that all these other plumbers are having with the unit. You can install commercial unit in residential. If using the heating box for radiant heating you HAVE to use the commercial model according to NAvien. This comes from a Navien tech. 

I don't tell anyone that they HAVE to get the comercial model, but problems such as board re-programming, dud remotes, blown 90 degree elbows and other leaks have only happened on the residential models. I let people know this. Why should someone spend that kind of money and have problems with them? 

I got ripped apart by SmellsLike, and I don't think there was reason for it. 
What I have stated is fact, much from NAvien tech, and personal experience. I have not had to go back and "service" a unit yet. My guess is that it's because I know how to install these units. Seems weird that many others ahve had issues. I must not know what I am talking about.

Just my 2 cents......homeslice!


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## Asparta

You only set the dip switch for external recirculation if you are not using the internal pump. That is what that switch designates. Internal pump, or external. Nothing to do with the circulation path whatsoever. That is what the 3 way valve is for.

Get your facts straight before you try cramming facts down people's throats...

SUCKA!


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## Tankless

I love how everybody is an expert. ...anf FYI, unit recycles the return line after only about 5 minutes. Real efficient. As I have said before, it's a better idea than it is a product. But if it's making you money.......


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## ZL700

Tankless,

Answer to your earlier question, the right button scrolls through the menu/readouts in reverse of the left button. (makes it easier to view the main 3 functions without scrolling through the 8 others)

Also hold down both at once and you can scroll through the last 5 stored error codes if any, assuming the board didn't lose power for about 20 minutes. 

Also, if you didn't know, if remote is installed, hold down top left two buttons and bottom right two buttons for about 3 seconds and you get into a expanded menu of the LED on CB which allows you to observe two readouts at once such as GPM on CB and outlet temp on remote. Scroll through the remote menu with the up/down arrows. It helps to have the chart, to know what you are looking at, such as cycles, BTU, water & gas valve position, and so on but 5,6,7 are the main menus.

Recycling of the circ function is based on standby loss at unit, yes install it outside in a cooler climate and it will cycle. Whats your other option, install a big 4 Jap tankless hang a electric water heater below it and let it cycle on electric, after spending $600 more on parts, now that's real efficient!

Thanks for recognizing I am somewhat of an expert, ha

Go ahead and call yourself Tankless, but it would help you immensely if you had a full understanding of your business.


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## smellslike$tome

ZL700,

I just checked your profile and see that you have chosen not to give your plumbing credentials only the fact that you are a mechanical engineer. This probably leaves only two possibilities. Either you have decided not to post your plumbing credentials for some reason known only to yourself or you do not possess any plumbing credentials. If it is the former, I would suggest that you post them so that the membership may know that you are indeed a licensed professional plumber, owner, or at the very least a licensed apprentice. If it is the latter then I would ask exactly how many tankless water heaters you have illegally installed.

Now I might expect the typical "engineers" response, something like "don't you know I'm an engineer? There is nothing about this that I don't understand better than you." I don't have anything against engineers, in fact I believe that Tankless is an electrical engineer in addition to being a plumber, (correct me if I am wrong Tankless) I just don't prefer to work with or for them because they virtually always want to complicate things unnecessarily. When they are customers, they are generally very difficult to please because their arrogance gets in the way of my professional knowledge and experience. I in no way wish to diminish your accomplishment. Engineering school is no small feat. I just wish you would leave the plumbing to plumbers.


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## Airgap

smellslike$tome said:


> ZL700,
> 
> I just checked your profile and see that you have chosen not to give your plumbing credentials only the fact that you are a mechanical engineer. This probably leaves only two possibilities. Either you have decided not to post your plumbing credentials for some reason known only to yourself or you do not possess any plumbing credentials. If it is the former, I would suggest that you post them so that the membership may know that you are indeed a licensed professional plumber, owner, or at the very least a licensed apprentice. If it is the latter then I would ask exactly how many tankless water heaters you have illegally installed.
> 
> Now I might expect the typical "engineers" response, something like "don't you know I'm an engineer? There is nothing about this that I don't understand better than you." I don't have anything against engineers, in fact I believe that Tankless is an electrical engineer in addition to being a plumber, (correct me if I am wrong Tankless) I just don't prefer to work with or for them because they virtually always want to complicate things unnecessarily. When they are customers, they are generally very difficult to please because their arrogance gets in the way of my professional knowledge and experience. I in no way wish to diminish your accomplishment. Engineering school is no small feat. I just wish you would leave the plumbing to plumbers.


 *Roaring Applause*


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## Tankless

I can run circles around you, all day long. Please don't ASSume you know it all. I have forgotten more than you have ever learned about tankless systems. You smell like a rep......Steve is it? I think that was the head of Navien's tech support. I'm the guy that blasted you for having your techs reply to issues with "here's a box of parts, just keep changing them out till it works".

Because I choose not to sell Naviens anymore does not mean I need "immense" help to understand my business.

How many tankless units have you personally installed?

I gotta feeling you are a rep of some kind, the wording you use is not that of a typical plumber. It's obvious you know about these units, and good for you, really. 






ZL700 said:


> Tankless,
> 
> Answer to your earlier question, the right button scrolls through the menu/readouts in reverse of the left button. (makes it easier to view the main 3 functions without scrolling through the 8 others)
> 
> Also hold down both at once and you can scroll through the last 5 stored error codes if any, assuming the board didn't lose power for about 20 minutes.
> 
> Also, if you didn't know, if remote is installed, hold down top left two buttons and bottom right two buttons for about 3 seconds and you get into a expanded menu of the LED on CB which allows you to observe two readouts at once such as GPM on CB and outlet temp on remote. Scroll through the remote menu with the up/down arrows. It helps to have the chart, to know what you are looking at, such as cycles, BTU, water & gas valve position, and so on but 5,6,7 are the main menus.
> 
> Recycling of the circ function is based on standby loss at unit, yes install it outside in a cooler climate and it will cycle. Whats your other option, install a big 4 Jap tankless hang a electric water heater below it and let it cycle on electric, after spending $600 more on parts, now that's real efficient!
> 
> Thanks for recognizing I am somewhat of an expert, ha
> 
> Go ahead and call yourself Tankless, but it would help you immensely if you had a full understanding of your business.


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## Tankless

Smells, I do have my BA in EE from Cal State Northridge. Not an IVY League school, but you get what you give.

I think this guys name is Steve. If it is, he heads up Navien tech support. When we were *****ing at eachother, he told me he had an engineering degree as well, but was not a plumber yet had installed many tankless units. Eitherway, I'm all for people helping out, but the unwarranted attitude he emits is that of internet muscels.

I think everyone should master Naviens push button advanced LCD and analog counter technology. It's cutting edge!


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## ZL700

Keep Guessing

Since my biz involves all tankless, I know my business well.

I believe the Steve at Navien no longer works since last there since last year? so, shoots hole in your theory, since he wouldn't be speaking about Navien would he?

Perhaps it would do you well to leave the south on occasion and experience the world, you have any idea the % of jurisdictions that enforce the requirement of a "plumbing license"? Its much smaller than you know, without that requirement, I shall say the there are lots of bad installs. 
One thing I have noticed, a HVAC tech does a much better job than the majority of plumbers on tankless installs. 

To each his own, some of us don't like handling tools and prefer the design/ownership side. 

Sorry I offended you by sharing some simple Navien operation facts you did not know.


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## ZL700

smellslike$tome said:


> ZL700,
> 
> I just checked your profile and see that you have chosen not to give your plumbing credentials only the fact that you are a mechanical engineer. This probably leaves only two possibilities. Either you have decided not to post your plumbing credentials for some reason known only to yourself or you do not possess any plumbing credentials. If it is the former, I would suggest that you post them so that the membership may know that you are indeed a licensed professional plumber, owner, or at the very least a licensed apprentice. If it is the latter then I would ask exactly how many tankless water heaters you have illegally installed.
> 
> Now I might expect the typical "engineers" response, something like "don't you know I'm an engineer? There is nothing about this that I don't understand better than you." I don't have anything against engineers, in fact I believe that Tankless is an electrical engineer in addition to being a plumber, (correct me if I am wrong Tankless) I just don't prefer to work with or for them because they virtually always want to complicate things unnecessarily. When they are customers, they are generally very difficult to please because their arrogance gets in the way of my professional knowledge and experience. I in no way wish to diminish your accomplishment. Engineering school is no small feat. I just wish you would leave the plumbing to plumbers.


 
Whats your point? You mean the credentials you list are impressive? Education, license? 

Plumbers are educated in teaching, economics, hospitality, and so on, since my education was mechanical engineering, why do you get so defensive?


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## Tankless

My convo with Steve was 3 weeks ago guy. Who said you offended me? Did you even do an intro? ARE YOU A PLUMBER?

The Tin knocker comment you made is laughable man......


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## Tankless

Dude didn't even make an intro, and is listed as a mech engineer.....Ban???


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## Asparta

tankless, you became the aggressor here. 

Maybe you should be bannned?


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## RealLivePlumber

They way I read it, the engineer accused him of breaking the remote.

This is why this site should be for plumbers, not engineers, not sales reps, not hvac guys, etc, etc. 

BTW, most, and I repeat, most hvac guys I know could not make it as a plumber. Plumbers are licensed and regulate. Hvac is not. Anyone can be an hvac guy, but not anyone can be a plumber:yes:


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## ZL700

"BTW, most, and I repeat, most HVAC guys I know could not make it as a plumber. Plumbers are licensed and regulate. HVAC is not. Anyone can be an HVAC guy, but not anyone can be a plumber"

That statement is not true, just as many areas or states do or don't require plumbing licenses may require HVAC license's (Florida, Texas...) 

"My convo with Steve was 3 weeks ago guy"

That guy is a kid in the tech call center, not the Steve, from the tankless industry, big difference!

"Dude didn't even make an intro, and is listed as a mech engineer.....Ban??? "

Rules state nothing about professions, only industry, what Mechanical engineers don't design equipment, systems and write specs? In fact you only have to be 13 years old and have a valid email address. 

Back to the tankless forum posts, I realize you guys have been on for awhile and apologize for being able to add info that could be helpful that you were totally unaware of. 

Regarding the remote, the units were meant to be and are shipped on their back. If you, the distributor, or whoever stood it on end and bounced it well, such as down the stairs, the remote could break.


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## plumbpro

why would you bounce it down the stairs, Hey anyone here ever have to set fixtures in a basement and just toss them down the stairs one at a time


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## plumbpro

I looked, both TX and FL require a plumbing license. The only state that I know of that doesn't have a state code is MO, and most places there still follow some sort of code and require a license for the locallity


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## ZL700

plumbpro said:


> I looked, both TX and FL require a plumbing license. The only state that I know of that doesn't have a state code is MO, and most places there still follow some sort of code and require a license for the locallity


Good for you now start checking all local municipalities in all states to see who enforces. Most major cities do but no so in the burb's


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## smellslike$tome

ZL700 said:


> "BTW, most, and I repeat, most HVAC guys I know could not make it as a plumber. Plumbers are licensed and regulate. HVAC is not. Anyone can be an HVAC guy, but not anyone can be a plumber"
> 
> That statement is not true, just as many areas or states do or don't require plumbing licenses may require HVAC license's (Florida, Texas...)
> 
> "My convo with Steve was 3 weeks ago guy"
> 
> That guy is a kid in the tech call center, not the Steve, from the tankless industry, big difference!
> 
> "Dude didn't even make an intro, and is listed as a mech engineer.....Ban??? "
> 
> Rules state nothing about professions, only industry, what Mechanical engineers don't design equipment, systems and write specs? In fact you only have to be 13 years old and have a valid email address.
> 
> Back to the tankless forum posts, I realize you guys have been on for awhile and apologize for being able to add info that could be helpful that you were totally unaware of.
> 
> Regarding the remote, the units were meant to be and are shipped on their back. If you, the distributor, or whoever stood it on end and bounced it well, such as down the stairs, the remote could break.



I've never pulled a busted remote or a busted anything else for that matter out of a Noritz box. The first Navien box I ever open has a busted remote in it and no I didn't do anything to it, and there was no visible damage to the box (I carefully checked). 

Argue all you want, I think your product is inferior. I won't say that I won't ever install it again but I can say that I won't be selling it and it's name will not cross my lips to a customer unless specifically asked, at which point I will tell them exactly what I think. If they still want it fine. I will not add my warranty to it.


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## smellslike$tome

ZL700 said:


> Good for you now start checking all local municipalities in all states to see who enforces. Most major cities do but no so in the burb's


This is total hack mentality. "Oh yeah, I know it's the law to be certified/liscensed to do this work but I'm going to do it anyway. If I get caught I'll take my slap on the wrist, pay my fine, and keep on doing whatever I want."

Tell me what whether a law is enforced or not has to do with the legality of the law.


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## ZL700

smellslike$tome said:


> [/color]
> 
> I've never pulled a busted remote or a busted anything else for that matter out of a Noritz box. The first Navien box I ever open has a busted remote in it and no I didn't do anything to it, and there was no visible damage to the box (I carefully checked).
> 
> Argue all you want, I think your product is inferior. I won't say that I won't ever install it again but I can say that I won't be selling it and it's name will not cross my lips to a customer unless specifically asked, at which point I will tell them exactly what I think. If they still want it fine. I will not add my warranty to it.


Argue what? I don't care what you install

As any smart installer install whats best for the consumer and the application, thats my recommendation.

I like how you twist words, if there is no plumbing enforcement or licensing required, by local officials, how is that illegal? 
If the stop sign isn't there you wont get a ticket

You don't list your license as most people do on here so your just another hack hiding behind someone else's umbrella? You should talk!


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## smellslike$tome

ZL700 said:


> Argue what? I don't care what you install
> 
> As any smart installer install whats best for the consumer and the application, thats my recommendation.
> 
> I like how you twist words, if there is no plumbing enforcement or licensing required, by local officials, how is that illegal?
> If the stop sign isn't there you wont get a ticket
> 
> You don't list your license as most people do on here so your just another hack hiding behind someone else's umbrella? You should talk!


Ok you've succeeded. Now I'm pissed off. I am in fact certified by the State of Alabama as both a Master Plumber and a Master Gas Fitter. I am also endorsed by Alagasco (local natural gas provider) as one of their authorized gas advantage contractors. I am a platinum rated Noritz certified installer/service provider. I realize the last two have nothing whatsoever to do with the legality of plumbing/gas fitting but the first two most certainly do. It is the law state wide in Alabama, whether a particular county, city, township, municipality, etc. has it's own code enforcement agency or not, that anyone other than a homeowner must be certified.

Skirt whatever laws you want to, the bottom line is that you are illegitimate.


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## ZL700

You have certainly accomplished alot after falling into the plumbing industry, 11 years ago? 

There is only one Noritz platinum rated agent in that area, so that means your an installer, or the bosses kid, since they have been in business much longer than you have been plumbing, which is it?

"Skirt whatever laws you want to, the bottom line is that you are illegitimate." 
???? I'm neither a plumber or installer so not sure what that gibberish is about


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## Bayside500

ZL700 said:


> ..........................???? I'm neither a plumber or installer so not sure what that gibberish is about


so say goodbye now before this thread gets locked and you are banned :whistling2:


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## smellslike$tome

ZL700 said:


> You have certainly accomplished alot after falling into the plumbing industry, 11 years ago?
> 
> There is only one Noritz platinum rated agent in that area, so that means your an installer, or the bosses kid, since they have been in business much longer than you have been plumbing, which is it?
> 
> "Skirt whatever laws you want to, the bottom line is that you are illegitimate."
> ???? I'm neither a plumber or installer so not sure what that gibberish is about


Finally you are correct about something. There is only one platinum rated company for Noritz in my area. We are it. Yes, I am the installer. No I am not the boss's kid. I am the boss. 

If you are not an installer nor a plumber, what possible interest could you have in this to begin with, unless of course you work for Navien in some capacity? Furthermore, if you are not an installer or a plumber, what exactly makes you think you are qualified in any way to comment on field installations of tankless water heaters of any sort? You seem to have read a little bit but then you make ridiculous statements like "No need to install the remote". Well there are several reasons to install the remote not the least of which is the fact that the customer paid for the remote, it's part of the standard equipment, it gives them much more control over the equipment, and it simply belongs to them. If I don't install the remote then I am stealing from my customer. You apparently do not understand this fact.


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## ZL700

smellslike$tome said:


> Finally you are correct about something. There is only one platinum rated company for Noritz in my area. We are it. Yes, I am the installer. No I am not the boss's kid. I am the boss.
> 
> If you are not an installer nor a plumber, what possible interest could you have in this to begin with, unless of course you work for Navien in some capacity? Furthermore, if you are not an installer or a plumber, what exactly makes you think you are qualified in any way to comment on field installations of tankless water heaters of any sort? You seem to have read a little bit but then you make ridiculous statements like "No need to install the remote". Well there are several reasons to install the remote not the least of which is the fact that the customer paid for the remote, it's part of the standard equipment, it gives them much more control over the equipment, and it simply belongs to them. If I don't install the remote then I am stealing from my customer. You apparently do not understand this fact.


I'm a business owner directly involved with Tankless systems besides many other trade related products. 

Your overreacting, my statement was that there is no need to install the remote based on comments that it was conveyed that the remote must be installed for the unit to work, which is not the case. Certainly under most circumstances I highly recommend to install the remote for the added features besides the additional operation/trouble shooting capabilities it has. 

I suggest you get a hold of a service manual that goes much further than the manuals included with the unit.


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