# Side Work



## Widdershins

Just wondering what your policies are about your employee's doing side work.

Mine are fairly straight forward; No poaching from my pool of GC's and no letting your side gigs interfere with showing up for your regular gig.

I know rules differ from state to state, but here in Washington a Journeyman is allowed to own a shop and is also allowed to work under the license and bond of a GC.


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## plbgbiz

Here we go again...:whistling2:

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/stealing-work-12053/

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f4/side-job-contracting-10043/

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f4/employee-theft-10215/

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/instruction-needed-9719/

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/side-jobs-4546/

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/side-job-gone-bad-2144/


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## easttexasplumb

Contractors should have insurance and licenses, if these requirements are met it is not side work. If I found out that an employee was acting as a plumbing contractor, they would be let go. Letting the employee go would be the best thing for said person, time to go make your own way in this cruel world.


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## user2090

No employer should allow side work of any sorts. IMO

If an employee does side work, they are not being paid enough, and have to much free time. 

Employees that are willing to put in that extra time, should be using that time to make his employer money. Why lose out on revenue they could be making some for you?

What will you do if that employee hurts themselves off the job? What if they screw something up and the customer tries to sue you, since they work for you?


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## plumbpro

We should start a flat rate vs TM side job thread and do you use putty or silicone on the side job. :laughing:


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## 504Plumber

Indie said:


> No employer should allow side work of any sorts. IMO
> 
> If an employee does side work, they are not being paid enough, and have to much free time.
> 
> Employees that are willing to put in that extra time, should be using that time to make his employer money. Why lose out on revenue they could be making some for you?


I'm sorry, I like ya, but I cannot disagree more with that statement. Free time is time off, time to do what I want and when I want ( not doin the debate on side jobbing again ) whether it be with my family or friends. I work enough during the week and at nights that I feel is sufficient, why should I bust my ass even harder to hardly see any gains from the money I make for this company? I feel that I should be allowed to at least come home and see my kids when they are awake, spend time with them, and with the hours I'm working now that is hard to do. I don't think that is unreasonable to ask for ( my kids go to bed at 7:30. )


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## easttexasplumb

plumbpro said:


> We should start a flat rate vs TM side job thread and do you use putty or silicone on the side job. :laughing:


 
I predict at least 100 replies


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## smoldrn

I figure if they're doing it for family or friends, that's their business. Go after any of my GC's, well, enjoy that paycheck I just gave ya, 'cause it's your last. I don't employ competitors.
What works well for me is to offer them a bonus when they bring in new work to the shop. Ideally you hand them cash in front of the other employees & explain that you appreciate them bringing you the work. Pretty soon most of your guys will be looking for work to bring you.


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## user2090

504Plumber said:


> I'm sorry, I like ya, but I cannot disagree more with that statement. Free time is time off, time to do what I want and when I want ( not doin the debate on side jobbing again ) whether it be with my family or friends. I work enough during the week and at nights that I feel is sufficient, why should I bust my ass even harder to hardly see any gains from the money I make for this company? I feel that I should be allowed to at least come home and see my kids when they are awake, spend time with them, and with the hours I'm working now that is hard to do. I don't think that is unreasonable to ask for ( my kids go to bed at 7:30. )



Let me clarify just in case there is a misunderstanding. 

I agree, your time is your time, and spend it the way you should want to. However, if you are using that time to side-job the company you work for, with permission from the boss, then why not spend that time working for him?


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## plumbpro

Indie said:


> Let me clarify just in case there is a misunderstanding.
> 
> I agree, your time is your time, and spend it the way you should want to. However, if you are using that time to side-job the company you work for, with permission from the boss, then why not spend that time working for him?


That would depend entirely on the employees long term goals. If the company let's you, and you want or need the extra hours, and you plan to eventually go out on your own, more power to you.


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## 504Plumber

Indie said:


> Let me clarify just in case there is a misunderstanding.
> 
> I agree, your time is your time, and spend it the way you should want to. However, if you are using that time to side-job the company you work for, with permission from the boss, then why not spend that time working for him?


I mean no disrespect, if it came across that way I'm sorry, hard to put any joking emotion writing from my iPhone. My answer is simple and I'm sure with you being a business owner you can understand, ethics aside, the money is better working on the side than working for my boss. I don't spend too much time doing sidework anymore simply because time is hard to come by now and I realized how much better my life is spending as much time as I can with my wife an kids.


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## PrecisionPlumb

I would instantly fire any worker doing side work for anyone other than a family member or friend. As the employer Im sure he could mess up and i could get sued.


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## luv2plumb

Where is the "beating the dead horse" icon at? This topic is getting old. I do not allow moonlighting; I have all my employees sign a paper in the employee handbook stating anyone caught moonlighting will be fired. No ifs, ands or buts about it.


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## Lifer

I do not do side work ..( at least very very few ) But it is not because my boss employs me and or has the rights to do plumbing exclusively in my town or made me sign a waver saying i would not . It's because i choose not too . I paid in excess of $60 000.00 in total for training and time to get my plumbing license , so if i were to chose to make some extra money I feel that is my right .

We in Canada do not have to worry as much about all the law suits that you Americans seem to find your self in ... It just does not happen here.

You can make tons more money working on the side , if you choose to do so, but you should be mindful of where you are in the food chain .. or you may find your self in the soup line.


My $.02 first and last time i will chime in on this well beaton subject.

Lifer...


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## Pipe Dreams

Man, you guys are brutal. When I took my current job I made it very clear that I do work on the side and it in no way would affect my full time job. I would never steal work from my boss and he knows that. I have made many connections over the years and I wouldn't be where I am today without side work. If I can make in a few hours moonlighting what I can make in a week working for someone then why not? Around here good help is hard to find so I hold the cards. My boss would be a lost puppy without me. Let him tell me that I can't work on the side and I'll have a new job by tomorrow with someone who understands what it's like getting started.


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## plumr-n-tx

I have done it both ways with my employees. Those that worked on the side were constantly calling in "sick". Eventually I would discover it was because they had to finish or start a side job.
I worked for a guy once who would give a bonus to any employee who ratted out another employee for working on the side. My personal feeling on this is that I don't want to support my competition. If they're doing plumbing for the public- they are my competition. Get their license, their insurance, their tools, their advertising, and their own truck and gasoline. And don't ask me to buy it for them by paying them a paycheck while they are competing with me.


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## RW Plumbing

Pipe Dreams said:


> Man, you guys are brutal. When I took my current job I made it very clear that I do work on the side and it in no way would affect my full time job. I would never steal work from my boss and he knows that. I have made many connections over the years and I wouldn't be where I am today without side work. If I can make in a few hours moonlighting what I can make in a week working for someone then why not? Around here good help is hard to find so I hold the cards.* My boss would be a lost puppy without me.* Let him tell me that I can't work on the side and I'll have a new job by tomorrow with someone who understands what it's like getting started.


I hope for your sake your right. Usually people don't get to the point where they can hire employees by being lost idiots. Believe it or not, you are replaceable. If you're so confident, why don't you start your own shop? Guys like you who think the boss would huddle up in a corner and cry if you left are almost always the ones shocked when their ass hits the curb after getting fired. 

Side jobbers hurt business owners and by extension THEIR EMPLOYEE's profits. If you're out there doing work for half what your employer charges, your devaluing the trade and are an idiot.


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## Pipe Dreams

RW Plumbing said:


> I hope for your sake your right. Usually people don't get to the point where they can hire employees by being lost idiots. Believe it or not, you are replaceable. If you're so confident, why don't you start your own shop? Guys like you who think the boss would huddle up in a corner and cry if you left are almost always the ones shocked when their ass hits the curb after getting fired.
> 
> Side jobbers hurt business owners and by extension THEIR EMPLOYEE's profits. If you're out there doing work for half what your employer charges, your devaluing the trade and are an idiot.


I never said anything about charging half. I make just as much if not more as he does and all my work is done with a permit. My boss has told me on more than one occasion that he doesn't know what he would do without me. Maybe you are out there in the field with your employees but my boss hasn't worked in about 5 years. I handle everything from pricing jobs to the work itself. He's not going to just hire someone off the street to do what I do....I just won't happen. For an idiot, I do pretty well for myself and for my boss. Every situation is different and this is mine....no need to argue with it.


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## OldSchool

Pipe Dreams said:


> I never said anything about charging half. I make just as much if not more as he does and all my work is done with a permit. My boss has told me on more than one occasion that he doesn't know what he would do without me. Maybe you are out there in the field with your employees but my boss hasn't worked in about 5 years. I handle everything from pricing jobs to the work itself. He's not going to just hire someone off the street to do what I do....I just won't happen. For an idiot, I do pretty well for myself and for my boss. Every situation is different and this is mine....no need to argue with it.


I would fire your sorry azz in a new york minute... but first I would be looking to replace you every waking minute of the day...


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## plbgbiz

Pipe Dreams said:


> ...all my work is done with a permit....


Do you....

1. Have liability insurance?
2. Have worker's compensation insurance?
3. Have a license to legally contract for plumbing work?
3. Have your own supply inventory?
4. Have your own work truck?
5. Have a legally registered business name that pulls its own permits?
6. Have a business checking account that all side money goes into?
7. Have an accountant prepare a business tax return and pay taxes on your side income?
8. Have a clue?


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## Plumber patt

plbgbiz said:


> Do you....
> 
> 1. Have liability insurance?
> 2. Have worker's compensation insurance?
> 3. Have a license to legally contract for plumbing work?
> 3. Have your own supply inventory?
> 4. Have your own work truck?
> 5. Have a legally registered business name that pulls its own permits?
> 6. Have a business checking account that all side money goes into?
> 7. Have an accountant prepare a business tax return and pay taxes on your side income?
> 8. Have a clue?


Of course not, that's why it's a side job lol!


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## RW Plumbing

Plumber patt said:


> Of course not, that's why it's a side job lol!


Then you're a sloppy hack. Do it right, or don't do it at all. If you don't carry the insurance what happens when you start some woodchips on fire and burn a house down? Or when a joint you forgot to solder breaks loose and floods a house when the customer is on vacation? 

You're doing a dis-service to everyone you work for. I hope, for your bosses sake, none of your jobs go wrong. He could be sued for your mistake. That is unfair to your boss. Your not any better than some handyhack off craigslist. Just because you may or may not know what you're doing, doesn't give you the right to do business without the proper insurance.

I stand behind my previous diagnosis of you being an idiot, i'm going to add to it that your boss is one as well.


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## Pipe Dreams

plbgbiz said:


> Do you....
> 
> 1. Have liability insurance?
> 2. Have worker's compensation insurance?
> 3. Have a license to legally contract for plumbing work?
> 3. Have your own supply inventory?
> 4. Have your own work truck?
> 5. Have a legally registered business name that pulls its own permits?
> 6. Have a business checking account that all side money goes into?
> 7. Have an accountant prepare a business tax return and pay taxes on your side income?
> 8. Have a clue?


Everything but number 2 because it's not required when you have no employees.


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## OldSchool

Pipe Dreams said:


> Everything but number 2 because it's not required when you have no employees.


So you are saying you have a registered plumbing buisness ... just for side jobs


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## Pipe Dreams

RW Plumbing said:


> Then you're a sloppy hack. Do it right, or don't do it at all. If you don't carry the insurance what happens when you start some woodchips on fire and burn a house down? Or when a joint you forgot to solder breaks loose and floods a house when the customer is on vacation?
> 
> You're doing a dis-service to everyone you work for. I hope, for your bosses sake, none of your jobs go wrong. He could be sued for your mistake. That is unfair to your boss. Your not any better than some handyhack off craigslist. Just because you may or may not know what you're doing, doesn't give you the right to do business without the proper insurance.
> 
> I stand behind my previous diagnosis of you being an idiot, i'm going to add to it that your boss is one as well.


I assume you were talking to me....and I'm the idiot. Do you normally pull  right out of your  without getting your facts straight first or is this a special occasion?


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## Pipe Dreams

OldSchool said:


> So you are saying you have a registered plumbing buisness ... just for side jobs


Drain cleaning if you want to get technical but I am insured and I do pay taxes on all the money I make. My father or my boss stamp anything I do plumbing related that requires a permit but a good percentage of what I do on the side is actual drain cleaning. I am in my final year of schooling and do intend to get licensed. I try to do the right thing for myself and my family in the mean time so the bills get payed and I can can reach my ultimate goal of getting licensed. If that makes me an idiot the so be it....I'm just trying to survive.


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## OldSchool

Pipe Dreams said:


> Drain cleaning if you want to get technical but I am insured and I do pay taxes on all the money I make. My father or my boss stamp anything I do plumbing related that requires a permit but a good percentage of what I do on the side is actual drain cleaning. I am in my final year of schooling and do intend to get licensed. I try to do the right thing for myself and my family in the mean time so the bills get payed and I can can reach my ultimate goal of getting licensed. If that makes me an idiot the so be it....I'm just trying to survive.


You would be a lot better off going through the company you work for... I am sure your boss would give you overtime and commission if you brought the work to him instead...

I just dont find that right or moral... Your boss works to find you work and a steady job.....and what do you offer... you would be worth a lot more if you actually brought work into the company.. than just thinking about yourself..


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## 1703

luv2plumb said:


> Where is the "beating the dead horse" icon at?


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## Plumber patt

Pipe Dreams said:


> I assume you were talking to me....and I'm the idiot. Do you normally pull  right out of your  without getting your facts straight first or is this a special occasion?


I hope he is talking to u, I was just kidding around....


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## Pipe Dreams

He doesn't have steady work or it might not be necessary. He gives me 10% on whatever work I bring in and I do bring in work whenever I can but he's not equipped and has no desire to do drain cleaning so he gives me whatever calls he gets along with the ones I get on my own. Boilers, tankless heaters, additions, anything that's not in and out goes right to him and I take my percentage.


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## luv2plumb

Colgar said:


> How dat?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or dis?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Take yur pick.


 

This will work....or is it DIS


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## OldSchool

Pipe Dreams said:


> He doesn't have steady work or it might not be necessary. He gives me 10% on whatever work I bring in and I do bring in work whenever I can but he's not equipped and has no desire to do drain cleaning so he gives me whatever calls he gets along with the ones I get on my own. Boilers, tankless heaters, additions, anything that's not in and out goes right to him and I take my percentage.


Well it doesn't sound like a side job then.... just a side buisness


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## Widdershins

Wow.

We really do come from different worlds.

So, the majority of you would fire an employee for enriching himself by taking on a job that you yourself would never be able to get because you're priced higher than the customer is willing to pay?

Note I didn't say that you're charging too much, just more than the customer is willing to spend.

And just so we're clear, I do differentiate between taking on Service work on the side and taking on a re-pipe or a remodel or new construction.

Chances are, if you're a Service orientated shop, then the high dollar drain cleaning, jetting, cameras et al on the trucks belong to the owner -- As does the liability if your equipment is used and an accident happens. Trust me, I get the zero tolerance policy towards doing Service work on the side.

But I don't do Service work, nor do any of my guys -- So that's a nut I've never had to crack. As for the rest of the tools on my guys trucks -- Those belong to them, the trucks are mine, but the tools are theirs. We have an understanding, implicit from the get-go, if you break one of your tools on one of my jobs, I pay to repair or replace it.

As I stated at the beginning, my policy is fairly straightforward: No poaching from my pool of GC's and no letting the side gig interfere with the regular gig -- Beyond that, they're free to take on as many projects as they like.

A nice bonus to that policy is that it has brought work my way over the years; The six bath job we're in the middle of right now was brought to us by one of my guys GC's who thought the job was much too big for one guy to handle. And we'll be starting a Health Club later on in the Spring that was brought to us by another one of my employee's GC's who is branching out into Commercial work.

But I digress -- I actually had a reason for bringing this up.

I ran into a kid (early 30's, 6th years Journeyman) at Consolidated Supply yesterday who was fired for doing side work. The company he works for has a zero tolerance policy towards side work -- Here's the kicker; He hasn't worked in over 2 months and the 'side job' was a trade with a Vet who put his dog back together after she was mauled by a Bull Mastiff.

I know his boss, BTW, I golf with him from time to time and have heard him sing this kids praise a number of times. And not a bad guy, either. ****ty golfer, but a pretty decent guy.

Here's the real question, folks -- Should I intervene on this kids behalf and talk to his former boss (the boss already knows it was a bartered gig and that no money changed hands -- That's the good news, the bad news is that the Vet is a regular client of the Boss) or should I just let it go?


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## Pipe Dreams

OldSchool said:


> Well it doesn't sound like a side job then.... just a side buisness


I suppose but in the end he's my bread and butter until I can go completely on my own.


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## OldSchool

Why dont you hire him ???????


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## Pipe Dreams

Widdershins said:


> Wow.
> 
> We really do come from different worlds.
> 
> So, the majority of you would fire an employee for enriching himself by taking on a job that you yourself would never be able to get because you're priced higher than the customer is willing to pay?
> 
> Note I didn't say that you're charging too much, just more than the customer is willing to spend.
> 
> And just so we're clear, I do differentiate between taking on Service work on the side and taking on a re-pipe or a remodel or new construction.
> 
> Chances are, if you're a Service orientated shop, then the high dollar drain cleaning, jetting, cameras et al on the trucks belong to the owner -- As does the liability if your equipment is used and an accident happens. Trust me, I get the zero tolerance policy towards doing Service work on the side.
> 
> But I don't do Service work, nor do any of my guys -- So that's a nut I've never had to crack. As for the rest of the tools on my guys trucks -- Those belong to them, the trucks are mine, but the tools are theirs. We have an understanding, implicit from the get-go, if you break one of your tools on one of my jobs, I pay to repair or replace it.
> 
> As I stated at the beginning, my policy is fairly straightforward: No poaching from my pool of GC's and no letting the side gig interfere with the regular gig -- Beyond that, they're free to take on as many projects as they like.
> 
> A nice bonus to that policy is that it has brought work my way over the years; The six bath job we're in the middle of right now was brought to us by one of my guys GC's who thought the job was much too big for one guy to handle. And we'll be starting a Health Club later on in the Spring that was brought to us by another one of my employee's GC's who is branching out into Commercial work.
> 
> But I digress -- I actually had a reason for bringing this up.
> 
> I ran into a kid (early 30's, 6th years Journeyman) at Consolidated Supply yesterday who was fired for doing side work. The company he works for has a zero tolerance policy towards side work -- Here's the kicker; He hasn't worked in over 2 months and the 'side job' was a trade with a Vet who put his dog back together after she was mauled by a Bull Mastiff.
> 
> I know his boss, BTW, I golf with him from time to time and have heard him sing this kids praise a number of times. And not a bad guy, either. ****ty golfer, but a pretty decent guy.
> 
> Here's the real question, folks -- Should I intervene on this kids behalf and talk to his former boss (the boss already knows it was a bartered gig and that no money changed hands -- That's the good news, the bad news is that the Vet is a regular client of the Boss) or should I just let it go?


I would have asked my boss if he had a problem with it first so it's kind of his own fault. Being upfront and honest with someone goes a long way.


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## Widdershins

OldSchool said:


> Why dont you hire him ???????


 Because:

A) I don't need him -- A low dollar Apprentice would be helpful, but a high dollar Journeyman just isn't in the cards.

B) Professional Courtesy.

C) I can see both sides of the story.

Seriously, though -- What would you do?


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## Widdershins

Pipe Dreams said:


> I would have asked my boss if he had a problem with it first so it's kind of his own fault. Being upfront and honest with someone goes a long way.


Hence the quandry.

No easy answer, eh?


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## OldSchool

Widdershins said:


> Because:
> 
> A) I don't need him -- A low dollar Apprentice would be helpful, but a high dollar Journeyman just isn't in the cards.
> 
> B) Professional Courtesy.
> 
> C) I can see both sides of the story.
> 
> Seriously, though -- What would you do?


If he is as good as his exboss says I would hire him.... I am sure he learned a lesson 

Talk to your friend and say if you dont hire him back I will and see where it goes from there


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## Widdershins

> If he is as good as his exboss says I would hire him.... I am sure he learned a lesson


 If I did that, it would be a strictly 'piece work' situation -- Nothing full time.



> Talk to your friend and say if you dont hire him back I will and see where it goes from there


 That's where I'm leaning. Hopefully he doesn't call my bluff.


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## RW Plumbing

I thought plumber patt, who was kidding was the person who was orginally talking about side jobbing not you. That's why I called him an idiot. If you have all the proper stuff to do a job, you aren't really side jobbing more like working for yourself, and another company. There's nothing wrong with doing it on your own and for someone else.

As long as someone is doing it with the proper licenses it isn't any different than any other business owner here IMO. I apologize for the confusion.


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## Pipe Dreams

RW Plumbing said:


> I thought plumber patt, who was kidding was the person who was orginally talking about side jobbing not you. That's why I called him an idiot. If you have all the proper stuff to do a job, you aren't really side jobbing more like working for yourself, and another company. There's nothing wrong with doing it on your own and for someone else.
> 
> As long as someone is doing it with the proper licenses it isn't any different than any other business owner here IMO. I apologize for the confusion.


Not a problem...sorry if I got snippy :whistling2:


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## OldSchool

Widdershins said:


> If I did that, it would be a strictly 'piece work' situation -- Nothing full time.
> 
> 
> 
> That's where I'm leaning. Hopefully he doesn't call my bluff.


I am sure he would be happy with anything..... it might suprise you... things happen for a reason....

As long as this guy makes you money there is no reason not to get him on board with you... if not send him back were you found him


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## wundumguy

My employer doesn't care what I do with my free time so long as it doesn't interfere with my job.
Unfortunately, school interferes with my free time.


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## U666A

plumbpro said:


> We should start a flat rate vs TM side job thread and do you use putty or silicone on the side job. :laughing:


And who do I pay union dues to during all of that?!? Lol!


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## waldrop

I do all side work I can get ,just charge regular rate. And don't tell wife seeing she the boss. But I don't ask for gas money for a week or so


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## Jammyrft

Indie said:


> No employer should allow side work of any sorts. IMO
> 
> If an employee does side work, they are not being paid enough, and have to much free time.
> 
> Employees that are willing to put in that extra time, should be using that time to make his employer money. Why lose out on revenue they could be making some for you?
> 
> What will you do if that employee hurts themselves off the job? What if they screw something up and the customer tries to sue you, since they work for you?




what an "out to lunch" post this is. the point of side work is to cut out your employer and a chance to make real money and not money for "the man" you go to work full time for your boss, if you want to spend your free time doing side work for extra cash for yourself GO AHEAD!!

and how in the world could someone sue the company you work for if you're doing to work unrelated to the company on your own time?


what a stupid post


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## Redwood

Jammyrft said:


> and how in the world could someone sue the company you work for if you're doing to work unrelated to the company on your own time?


Do you take your employers truck to the side job?

If you screw the pooch are his pockets deeper than yours?

If you do screw the pooch I can guarantee they will try...:yes:

And you'll be on the outs with your boss!:whistling2:


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## Widdershins

> As long as this guy makes you money there is no reason not to get him on board with you... if not send him back were you found him


What -- Outside the local supply house begging for piece work because he hasn't worked for two months and is ineligible for unemployment because he was fired instead of laid off?


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## Jammyrft

RW Plumbing said:


> Then you're a sloppy hack. Do it right, or don't do it at all. If you don't carry the insurance what happens when you start some woodchips on fire and burn a house down? Or when a joint you forgot to solder breaks loose and floods a house when the customer is on vacation?
> 
> You're doing a dis-service to everyone you work for. I hope, for your bosses sake, none of your jobs go wrong. He could be sued for your mistake. That is unfair to your boss. Your not any better than some handyhack off craigslist. Just because you may or may not know what you're doing, doesn't give you the right to do business without the proper insurance.
> 
> I stand behind my previous diagnosis of you being an idiot, i'm going to add to it that your boss is one as well.




so are you saying a mechanic can't do a brake job on a Saturday?
are you saying an accountant can't do his friends taxes for him?
can a painter not paint someone's house on his spare time?

No one in the world should be allowed to use their skills in the world OTHER than for their boss? do you really believe this or do you just want to sound up tight?


You sound like such a sally I can't even put it to words. I work 40 hours a week for my employer, I put in hard to work put premium fuel in his fararri. If I want to change a sink, a HWT or change a faucet on my own damn time to put a little change in my pocket then that's my f***ing right. Pull your skirt up and grow a pair, there's worse things going on in the world other than a journeyman changing a shutoff valve after hours :furious:


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## Jammyrft

Redwood said:


> Do you take your employers post to the side job?
> 
> If you screw the pooch are his pockets deeper than yours?
> 
> If you do screw the pooch I can guarantee they will try...:yes:
> 
> And you'll be on the outs with your boss!:whistling2:




...I have no idea what you're talking about here


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## Redwood

Jammyrft said:


> so are you saying a mechanic can't do a brake job on a Saturday?
> are you saying an accountant can't do his friends taxes for him?
> can a painter not paint someone's house on his spare time?
> 
> No one in the world should be allowed to use their skills in the world OTHER than for their boss? do you really believe this or do you just want to sound up tight?
> 
> 
> You sound like such a sally I can't even put it to words. I work 40 hours a week for my employer, I put in hard to work put premium fuel in his fararri. If I want to change a sink, a HWT or change a faucet on my own damn time to put a little change in my pocket then that's my f***ing right. Pull your skirt up and grow a pair, there's worse things going on in the world other than a journeyman changing a shutoff valve after hours :furious:


You sound a lot like the guys I've seen find sudden unemployment..... :yes:

Have a nice life...


----------



## ILPlumber

Let's not forget to be civil to each other folks. 

Thank you for your future cooperation.


----------



## Redwood

Jammyrft said:


> ...I have no idea what you're talking about here


I didn't think you would but press on and one day you'll find out...

It obvious you don't know what I'm talking about...


----------



## Jammyrft

Redwood said:


> You sound a lot like the guys I've seen find sudden unemployment..... :yes:
> 
> Have a nice life...




me no shink sho sorlly


----------



## user2090

Jammyrft said:


> so are you saying a mechanic can't do a brake job on a Saturday?
> are you saying an accountant can't do his friends taxes for him?
> can a painter not paint someone's house on his spare time?
> 
> No one in the world should be allowed to use their skills in the world OTHER than for their boss? do you really believe this or do you just want to sound up tight?
> 
> 
> You sound like such a sally I can't even put it to words. I work 40 hours a week for my employer, I put in hard to work put premium fuel in his fararri. If I want to change a sink, a HWT or change a faucet on my own damn time to put a little change in my pocket then that's my f***ing right. Pull your skirt up and grow a pair, there's worse things going on in the world other than a journeyman changing a shutoff valve after hours :furious:


You really don't know how dumb this crap you are saying sounds. If it wasn't for employers you wouldn't have the ability to side work you dingle-berry. 

Who trained you?
Who provided you with the environment to learn?
Who withholds your taxes?
Who provides you with benefits?
Who puts you in the van and gives you work orders so that you can go make that pay check that provides for your family? 
Who pays the other half of you social security?
Who covers your workman's comp?
Who gives you that paid vacation?


You clearly do not understand the cost of doing business. When you do, your opinion will change. 

Ignorance is bliss, buddy. 

Its better to let someone think your a dumb-ass, then to open you mouth and prove you are.


----------



## OldSchool

Jammyrft said:


> what an "out to lunch" post this is. the point of side work is to cut out your employer and a chance to make real money and not money for "the man" you go to work full time for your boss, if you want to spend your free time doing side work for extra cash for yourself GO AHEAD!!
> 
> and how in the world could someone sue the company you work for if you're doing to work unrelated to the company on your own time?
> 
> what a stupid post


This what happens 

While you are working for me you are day dreaming of your side jobs

More than likely I am paying you while you are shopping or making phone calls for prices for your side job.... or talking on your cell phone with your side job client while you are on my time.

Then after a full days work you go off to your side job and still have the energy to work at night or on the weekends. That extra energy to doo your side job is because you never gave your all while you were working for me.

Yes you do affect my buisness... more so than you think..

I am paying you for an honest days work.... that means you work for me and the time cards you give me should be productive time spent for the company..

It boils down to this... you are stealing time and pay from me and you think you can work both ends... it will catch up to you eventually... sooner or later your productivity will drop while working for me and I will notice.... I may not say anything ... but what I am thinking is way different ..... To tell you the truth I am no longer satisfied with you and I am looking to replace you.... 

Yes I am actively looking for a guy that has a different out look than you and shortly you will be dismissed from the work place. It will come to you as a suprise but I have been planning this ever since your productivity started to go down.


----------



## Jammyrft

Redwood said:


> Do you take your employers post to the side job?
> 
> If you screw the pooch are his pockets deeper than yours?
> 
> If you do screw the pooch I can guarantee they will try...:yes:
> 
> And you'll be on the outs with your boss!:whistling2:



-do I take my employers post to a side job? I have no friggin clue what a post is, do you mean work van or something? if so no I don't. I have my own work van

-if I "screw the pooch" are his pockets bigger than mine? I'm assuming you're talking about my employer and the answer is yes of course he is very wealthy. But how is my employer involved in a side job with me. Every side job I go to the customer doesn't know, nor care who I work for m-f 7am-3pm

- if I screw the pooch you guarantee they will try? me no speak [email protected]&!^

what does that even mean?


-my employer knows if I do side work because I tell them. It's no like you're cheating on your wife. Just don't let it interfere with your normal job and don't steal from your employer. Other than that who cares





your reply makes no sense:jester:


----------



## Jammyrft

OldSchool said:


> This what happens
> 
> While you are working for me you are day dreaming of your side jobs
> 
> More than likely I am paying you while you are shopping or making phone calls for prices for your side job.... or talking on your cell phone with your side job client while you are on my time.
> 
> Then after a full days work you go off to your side job and still have the energy to work at night or on the weekends. That extra energy to doo your side job is because you never gave your all while you were working for me.
> 
> Yes you do affect my buisness... more so than you think..
> 
> I am paying you for an honest days work.... that means you work for me and the time cards you give me should be productive time spent for the company..
> 
> It boils down to this... you are stealing time and pay from me and you think you can work both ends... it will catch up to you eventually... sooner or later your productivity will drop while working for me and I will notice.... I may not say anything ... but what I am thinking is way different ..... To tell you the truth I am no longer satisfied with you and I am looking to replace you....
> 
> Yes I am actively looking for a guy that has a different out look than you and shortly you will be dismissed from the work place. It will come to you as a suprise but I have been planning this ever since your productivity started to go down.



ha ha ha oh man that's such a LUDACRIS way of thinking it literally boggles the mind!!! If I find out on a monday I have to go do a re&re on a toilet for $125 bucks on a Saturday do you really think I would be "dreaming about my sidejob" and that my "productivity would drop because I'm talking ALL DAY on the phone about a toilet I need to replace" that is such a stretch you seem to be a little out of touch with reality. While I agree you shouldn't be stealing time from your employer and talking on the phone about your other job, to think that happens on the degree you're talking about is INSANE!!!

I mean maybe if your employer is on the horn to contracters making bids on jobs, trying to run a crew for another job on your time or has his number advertised so he's getting calls all day. But we're just talking about odd job side jobs here


----------



## 504Plumber

OldSchool said:


> Then after a full days work you go off to your side job and still have the energy to work at night or on the weekends. That extra energy to doo your side job is because you never gave your all while you were working for me.


I told myself to not get involved, I told myself, then you post this. Crack that whip massa' crack dat whip, only way dis a cotton gon get picked.


( not meant to be racial/racist ment to imply some bosses favor slave driving instead of just being a boss. )

So when I'm done working for you I'm supposed to be dripping with sweat an no energy left to spend time with family or friends? Glad I don't work for you.


----------



## OldSchool

504Plumber said:


> I told myself to not get involved, I told myself, then you post this. Crack that whip massa' crack dat whip, only way dis a cotton gon get picked.
> 
> 
> ( not meant to be racial/racist ment to imply some bosses favor slave driving instead of just being a boss. )
> 
> So when I'm done working for you I'm supposed to be dripping with sweat an no energy left to spend time with family or friends? Glad I don't work for you.


I dont think any of you guys have a clue to what an honest days work is...

All you guys think about is yourself.... me me me...

Well maybe you should just start your own buisness and move on... 

Oh wait .... just maybe you dont know how.... 

or what is your excuse ????? :whistling2:


----------



## Jammyrft

Indie said:


> You really don't know how dumb this crap you are saying sounds. If it wasn't for employers you wouldn't have the ability to side work you dingle-berry.
> 
> Who trained you?
> Who provided you with the environment to learn?
> Who withholds your taxes?
> Who provides you with benefits?
> Who puts you in the van and gives you work orders so that you can go make that pay check that provides for your family?
> Who pays the other half of you social security?
> Who covers your workman's comp?
> Who gives you that paid vacation?
> 
> 
> You clearly do not understand the cost of doing business. When you do, your opinion will change.
> 
> Ignorance is bliss, buddy.
> 
> Its better to let someone think your a dumb-ass, then to open you mouth and prove you are.



hold the phone here tough guy, you're painting this picture that somehow I don't appreciate or care about why employer which is 100% in accurate. take for example my wife's father from time to time gives people my number to do an odd job. So if I arrange on my own time to change a recirc pump at some guys house on a Saturday, please enlighten me again what this has to do with my employer and what he's done for me? :laughing::laughing:


you're right ignorance is bliss and I'm not your buddy, Pal


----------



## 504Plumber

OldSchool said:


> I dont think any of you guys have a clue to what an honest days work is...
> 
> All you guys think about is yourself.... me me me...
> 
> Well maybe you should just start your own buisness and move on...
> 
> Oh wait .... just maybe you dont know how....
> 
> or what is your excuse ????? :whistling2:


Is it me me me or is it you you you? The meaning of life to you is dictating others free time, yes?


----------



## Redwood

Jammyrft said:


> hold the phone here tough guy, you're painting this picture that somehow I don't appreciate or care about why employer which is 100% in accurate. take for example my wife's father from time to time gives people my number to do an odd job. So if I arrange on my own time to change a recirc pump at some guys house on a Saturday, please enlighten me again what this has to do with my employer and what he's done for me? :laughing::laughing:
> 
> 
> you're right ignorance is bliss and I'm not your buddy, Pal


Did you spend his time on Friday ordering and picking up parts for your Saturday side job?

Maybe grab a few fittings off the truck?

Yea its no big deal you needed them....:whistling2:


----------



## OldSchool

504Plumber said:


> Is it me me me or is it you you you? The meaning of life to you is dictating others free time, yes?


Like I said ... if you are not company minded then it would be better if you moved on...

You are hired to add to the company not take away... if there is no added value in having you around then surely you will be replaced with a more productive company minded person...

all you side jobber .... why lie to yourself and your employer just start your own buisness and move on

So what is your excuse


----------



## Redwood

OldSchool said:


> all you side jobber .... why lie to yourself and your employer just start your own buisness and move on


Prove you have a pair!

Or get busy and get back to work instead of lining up side jobs. :yes:


----------



## plbgbiz

If you are an apprentice or journeyman doing side jobs and think it's OK, then stop reading NOW because the rest of this post is just going to piss you off.

If you insist on not only doing side jobs without a Plumbing Contractor's License (or your state's equivalent) and proper insurances, but also stubbornly, selfishly, and arrogantly rationalize it under the "a man's got to do what a man's got to do", then you are nothing more than a tick sucking the lifeblood out of the very trade you claim to be a part of.

Don't give me any of that "but I have to get customers", "I have to eat", "Johnny needs a new pair of shoes", "my boss cheated me", "taxes are too high", "my friend did it", "my boss did it", blah, blah, blah. Stop being a cry baby.

Here's the cold hard fact...It's not easy to do it the right way but there are plenty of grownups in our trade that did do it the right way. So if you're not willing enough, smart enough, or strong enough to figure it out, then quit pretending you know what you're doing before you get hurt or even worse hurt someone else.

Doing side work as a regular supplement to your income proves one of three things:

1. Your paid too little so talk to your boss to resolve that issue or go get a better paying job.
2. You're greedy and think worker's comp laws, liability insurance laws, labor laws, and tax laws apply to everybody but you.
or...
3. You're an idiot.

And that's not to say it can't some combination of all 3.


----------



## user2090

Jammyrft said:


> hold the phone here tough guy, you're painting this picture that somehow I don't appreciate or care about why employer which is 100% in accurate. take for example my wife's father from time to time gives people my number to do an odd job. So if I arrange on my own time to change a recirc pump at some guys house on a Saturday, please enlighten me again what this has to do with my employer and what he's done for me? :laughing::laughing:
> 
> 
> you're right ignorance is bliss and I'm not your buddy, Pal



Ok, sir, let me take the higher road with you. 

If you truly knew what it takes to start a business, and then keep it running. I mean truly knew, from personal experience, you would finally understand why owners get a little upset when a person makes light of side work. 

To most owners side work is close to stealing. Then ad to that, the stealing is coming from someone who they have invested much money and time in. 

If you ever had to pay the bills, and all the other cost associated with running the company, it would all become clear. 

To many employees it seems as if it is unfair that the boss has a nice car, or house or paycheck or whatever else he has. But, you do not know what he or she has gone through to get there. 


You have no idea the time, money and sacrifices that someone has made in an attempt to make a better life for themselves. All you see is what you perceive to be unfair. 

Go out and try it yourself, and then come back and respond to this thread. 

If you have never run your own business, you don't know what you are talking about.


----------



## Redwood

Where the heck did all these CraigsList caliber plumbers come from? :laughing:


----------



## OldSchool

I think those two guy are brothers from different mothers... their father must have taught them to think like that


----------



## RW Plumbing

504Plumber said:


> I told myself to not get involved, I told myself, then you post this. Crack that whip massa' crack dat whip, only way dis a cotton gon get picked.
> 
> 
> ( not meant to be racial/racist ment to imply some bosses favor slave driving instead of just being a boss. )
> 
> So when I'm done working for you I'm supposed to be dripping with sweat an no energy left to spend time with family or friends? Glad I don't work for you.


You're supposed to put in an honest days work. And yes, this means working as hard and efficiently as possible. You SHOULD give your employer your all. Not because he expects it, but because your a tradesman. When I worked for other companies, I put my best into my job EVERY DAY. Your attitude SUCKS, you should want to make money for your boss so you'll have a job tomorrow. 

If it was so easy to make a fortune being a business owner, why don't you give it a shot. You have no idea how many hours a week your boss puts in or has in the past for you to even have a job. Unless someone else built the business for him, he's had to bust his ass to get it to where it is. I've taken 3 phone calls since I got home while I was trying to spend time with my son. There hasn't been a day in at least a year where I didn't have something business related to do. 

You don't have to be glad you don't work for me, as if you did, you wouldn't be for long.


----------



## Jammyrft

"some guy" - hey man, welcome to the floor hockey team

"plumber" - thanks man, great to get out and blow off some steam

"some guy" - you mean you have extra energy after work to play a sport? you shouldn't be here you should be working HARDER for your boss! what is it that you do for work?

"plumber" - oh I'm a journeyman plumber

"some guy" - cool, hey that reminds me I have this old shut off valve under my sink that drips maybe you could come by and swap it out

"plumber" - are you serious...no really are you joking? listen a$$hole that would be hurting the very trade I work in. Not only that it's basically like stealing from my employer. If you want that valve changed you're going to have to get a hold of me through my boss just call my company. I can't believe you even asked me

"some guy" - woah sorry man, just figured you might want to earn a little side cash it's not a big deal

"plumber" - don't you know what it takes to run a company? ignorance is bliss buddy. That's stealing and I can't sit there all week dreaming about your valve and then stealing off my boss NO WAY NO HOW!

"some guy" - Yeah you're right, running a business is tough I guess. What was I thinking?








...this must be a sad way to live out your life guys. Kinda dumb isn't it


----------



## Jammyrft

RW Plumbing said:


> You're supposed to put in an honest days work. And yes, this means working as hard and efficiently as possible. You SHOULD give your employer your all. Not because he expects it, but because your a tradesman. When I worked for other companies, I put my best into my job EVERY DAY. Your attitude SUCKS, you should want to make money for your boss so you'll have a job tomorrow.
> 
> If it was so easy to make a fortune being a business owner, why don't you give it a shot. You have no idea how many hours a week your boss puts in or has in the past for you to even have a job. Unless someone else built the business for him, he's had to bust his ass to get it to where it is. I've taken 3 phone calls since I got home while I was trying to spend time with my son. There hasn't been a day in at least a year where I didn't have something business related to do.
> 
> You don't have to be glad you don't work for me, as if you did, you wouldn't be for long.



who's saying they're not giving their all? who's saying they're not putting a hard days work in you're just assuming all of that to justify in your head how stupid you sound. as a matter of fact the very "stand up employees" you may have working from you probably from time to time do side jobs and you don't even know it. Have you ever in your life stopped to think that maybe just MAYBE someone can work very hard at work and have a meaningful hard working career and still from time to tim (if the opportunity arises) do a side job?


----------



## JK949

Jammyrft said:


> "some guy" - hey man, welcome to the floor hockey team
> 
> "plumber" - thanks man, great to get out and blow off some steam
> 
> "some guy" - you mean you have extra energy after work to play a sport? you shouldn't be here you should be working HARDER for your boss! what is it that you do for work?
> 
> "plumber" - oh I'm a journeyman plumber
> 
> "some guy" - cool, hey that reminds me I have this old shut off valve under my sink that drips maybe you could come by and swap it out
> 
> "plumber" - are you serious...no really are you joking? listen a$$hole that would be hurting the very trade I work in. Not only that it's basically like stealing from my employer. If you want that valve changed you're going to have to get a hold of me through my boss just call my company. I can't believe you even asked me
> 
> "some guy" - woah sorry man, just figured you might want to earn a little side cash it's not a big deal
> 
> "plumber" - don't you know what it takes to run a company? ignorance is bliss buddy. That's stealing and I can't sit there all week dreaming about your valve and then stealing off my boss NO WAY NO HOW!
> 
> "some guy" - Yeah you're right, running a business is tough I guess. What was I thinking?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...this must be a sad way to live out your life guys. Kinda dumb isn't it


NO, you're mental if you let some guy throw $20 at you to work on his home on YOUR free time without any insurance. He thinks he can buy and sell you because you're just a scumbag plumber. Taking him up on it just perpetuates that B.S. that our skills can be bought on the side for pennies. So go ahead, you're being insulted and you don't even know it.


----------



## user2090

Jammyrft said:


> "some guy" - hey man, welcome to the floor hockey team
> 
> "plumber" - thanks man, great to get out and blow off some steam
> 
> "some guy" - you mean you have extra energy after work to play a sport? you shouldn't be here you should be working HARDER for your boss! what is it that you do for work?
> 
> "plumber" - oh I'm a journeyman plumber
> 
> "some guy" - cool, hey that reminds me I have this old shut off valve under my sink that drips maybe you could come by and swap it out
> 
> "plumber" - are you serious...no really are you joking? listen a$$hole that would be hurting the very trade I work in. Not only that it's basically like stealing from my employer. If you want that valve changed you're going to have to get a hold of me through my boss just call my company. I can't believe you even asked me
> 
> "some guy" - woah sorry man, just figured you might want to earn a little side cash it's not a big deal
> 
> "plumber" - don't you know what it takes to run a company? ignorance is bliss buddy. That's stealing and I can't sit there all week dreaming about your valve and then stealing off my boss NO WAY NO HOW!
> 
> "some guy" - Yeah you're right, running a business is tough I guess. What was I thinking?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...this must be a sad way to live out your life guys. Kinda dumb isn't it



The best part of that is, its actually close to the way it should be. Let me ask

Do you know what it takes to run a business? Do you know the cost?


----------



## Jammyrft

JK949 said:


> NO, you're mental if you let some guy throw $20 at you to work on his home on YOUR free time without any insurance. He thinks he can buy and sell you because you're just a scumbag plumber. Taking him up on it just perpetuates that B.S. that our skills can be bought on the side for pennies. So go ahead, you're being insulted and you don't even know it.



ok man whatever you say


----------



## Redwood

Fred: Hi Fred's Plumbing Service How can we help you...

Some Guy: I had one of your guys here replacing an angle stop, and the faucet supply line broke flooding my house.

Fred: What is your name and invoice #?

Some Guy: I'm some guy and I don't have an invoice...

Fred: let me check the computer....

I'm sorry you aren't in there....

Who was at your house?

Some Guy: It was Plumber, he works for you....

That's all she wrote folks....

Some Guy is calling his Lawyer going after the deep pockets....

Plumber is unemployed...:yes:

Now if he had a real business he just might have liability insurance but Some Guy who saved a few bux didn't worry about that and now he has $30K worth of water damage in his home to worry about....:whistling2:


----------



## Jammyrft

Indie said:


> The best part of that is, its actually close to the way it should be. Let me ask
> 
> Do you know what it takes to run a business? Do you know the cost?


I know a little bit yes, cost varies but I do know it's expensive.


----------



## Jammyrft

Redwood said:


> Fred: Hi Fred's Plumbing Service How can we help you...
> 
> Some Guy: I had one of your guys here replacing an angle stop, and the faucet supply line broke flooding my house.
> 
> Fred: What is your name and invoice #?
> 
> Some Guy: I'm some guy and I don't have an invoice...
> 
> Fred: let me check the computer....
> 
> I'm sorry you aren't in there....
> 
> Who was at your house?
> 
> Some Guy: It was Plumber, he works for you....
> 
> That's all she wrote folks....
> 
> Some Guy is calling his Lawyer going after the deep pockets....
> 
> Plumber is unemployed...:yes:
> 
> Now if he had a real business he just might have liability insurance but Some Guy who saved a few bux didn't worry about that and now he has $30K worth of water damage in his home to worry about....:whistling2:



that's not how it would work at all but okay, keep dreaming.


----------



## easttexasplumb

ok how will it work


----------



## Redwood

Jammyrft said:


> that's not how it would work at all but okay, keep dreaming.


Really?:laughing:

I can't tell you how many times I have seen it....

So Jammyrft you have liability insurance for your side work? :yes:

I'll bet!:laughing:


----------



## user2090

How about you pop in chat, and we can discuss it more in-depth without wasting internet space.

If not tonight, then some other night.


----------



## Redwood

Indie said:


> How about you pop in chat, and we can discuss it more in-depth without wasting internet space.
> 
> If not tonight, then some other night.


No Guts... No Glory.... :laughing:


----------



## Prscptn Plmbng

Pipe Dreams said:


> Drain cleaning if you want to get technical but I am insured and I do pay taxes on all the money I make. My father or my boss stamp anything I do plumbing related that requires a permit but a good percentage of what I do on the side is actual drain cleaning. I am in my final year of schooling and do intend to get licensed. I try to do the right thing for myself and my family in the mean time so the bills get payed and I can can reach my ultimate goal of getting licensed. If that makes me an idiot the so be it....I'm just trying to survive.


Total TURD CHASER...so your boss is your dad...? No wonder why your a cocky lil ******


----------



## Prscptn Plmbng

Jammyrft said:


> ha ha ha oh man that's such a LUDACRIS way of thinking it literally boggles the mind!!! If I find out on a monday I have to go do a re&re on a toilet for $125 bucks on a Saturday do you really think I would be "dreaming about my sidejob" and that my "productivity would drop because I'm talking ALL DAY on the phone about a toilet I need to replace" that is such a stretch you seem to be a little out of touch with reality. While I agree you shouldn't be stealing time from your employer and talking on the phone about your other job, to think that happens on the degree you're talking about is INSANE!!!
> 
> I mean maybe if your employer is on the horn to contracters making bids on jobs, trying to run a crew for another job on your time or has his number advertised so he's getting calls all day. But we're just talking about odd job side jobs here


Where does such a great employee like you get all of your side work? Do you advertise or from your employer... I'm sure such a smart guy like you knows illegal to advertise without a contractors license...


----------



## OldSchool

*Never be able to get through to this guy*

*its like trying to led a horse to water or trying to led stupid to knowledge*


----------



## Jammyrft

I'm not saying I get a tone of side work, I'm just saying if someone finds out I'm a plumber and needs me to do a little service job on their home or what not I will do it. I don't think it's on the same level as murder or rape as you're making it out go be


----------



## plbgbiz

...


----------



## SlickRick

Jammyrft said:


> I'm not saying I get a tone of side work, I'm just saying if someone finds out I'm a plumber and needs me to do a little service job on their home or what not I will do it. I don't think it's on the same level as murder or rape as you're making it out go be


It is a form of rape to this industry. You may choose to always work for a co. and do side work. If you go it on your own to make the mega bucks, you will loose the customers you have now, due to the fact that you will have to charge what a legitimate co. does to survive, just like the rest of us. If you want to play the game, assume the risk the rest of us do. If you choose not to, I wouldn't brag about side work. Some of us have paid the price to get where we are.


----------



## stillaround

I did side work years ago....and had some close calls...no real understanding at that time regarding liability. My son does a few side jobs and its harder to apply pressure there. Obviously if he screws something up my insurance would cover it.
On the moral or ethics side everyone understands trying to provide for a family or getting enough to pay rent but the bulk of side work is a feeding of the baser cheapskate instincts of customers to the smellier get something for nothing someone owes me side jobber attitude. Those are the 2 attitudes that need adjusting and I for one wouldnt cry if legislation came down a little stronger in this area..I mean enforced.


----------



## luv2plumb

Once again here we are...........


----------



## stillaround

luv2plumb said:


> Once again here we are...........


 We could talk about what interests you only...but fishing stories tend to be eggagerated.


----------



## SlickRick

In Texas it is totally illegal if someone does not have a masters license and proper insurance. If I reported this type activity the state would investigate the complaint immediately, and levy a fine in a heart beat. The fine is up to $5000.00 per day, or for each separate violation.


----------



## luv2plumb

stillaround said:


> We could talk about what interests you only...but fishing stories tend to be eggagerated.


I do fish but not that big into it.......now if you want to talk hunting and beer drinking I am all for it.


----------



## easttexasplumb

stillaround said:


> we could talk about what interests you only...but fishing stories tend to be eggagerated.


 







This one has only been out of the water, a few minutes, they seem to rapidly grow once removed from water. :laughing:


----------



## stillaround

This guy jammyrft was not afraid to take it all on ...a few more times around the side job wall seemed useful....my exposure to fishing was dismal...the old man took me to Hayward Wisconsin where the big Northern and Muskie roam.....3 days, no nibbles.....big bees and that rockin feeling at night.....I went from outdoorsman to indoorsman..


----------



## PrecisionPlumb

Jammyrft said:


> I'm not saying I get a tone of side work, I'm just saying if someone finds out I'm a plumber and needs me to do a little service job on their home or what not I will do it. I don't think it's on the same level as murder or rape as you're making it out go be


If I had more info on you id call your boss and report you to the state. Your no better than a handyman


----------



## luv2plumb

PrecisionPlumb said:


> If I had more info on you id call your boss and report you to the state. Your no better than a handyHACK


I fixed it for you


----------



## Lifer

easttexasplumb said:


> I predict at least 100 replies


 Well 2 more and you win a toaster ... of course it's an old toaster and it burns on one side .. but it's all yours .. enjoy.


Lifer...


----------



## Prscptn Plmbng

The main question to these moonlighters...??? Have you ever taken your bosses customers offer to do the job on the side???


----------



## 504Plumber

Prscptn Plmbng said:


> The main question to these moonlighters...??? Have you ever taken your bosses customers offer to do the job on the side???


Not once, turned down a long time gc the other day when he said he would ask my boss if I could, I couldn't sleep at night doing that. Almost like sleeping with his wife or somethig...

Sorry lifer, guess your shelling out a toaster after this post...


----------



## Pipe Rat

Lifer said:


> Well 2 more and you win a toaster ... of course it's an old toaster and it burns on one side .. but it's all yours .. enjoy.
> 
> 
> Lifer...


I fix toasters on the side. :whistling2:


----------



## OldSchool

Pipe Rat said:


> I fix toasters on the side. :whistling2:


Hey if there is money in it why not :laughing:


----------



## easttexasplumb

Can I just have the retail value of a broken toaster?:laughing:


----------



## Prscptn Plmbng

OldSchool said:


> Hey if there is money in it why not :laughing:


As long as you don't work for a toaster repair company during the day... Lol


----------



## wundumguy

Prscptn Plmbng said:


> The main question to these moonlighters...??? Have you ever taken your bosses customers offer to do the job on the side???


That wouldn't be strictly moonlighting or doing side jobs for yourself. We call that stealing. I certainly don't condone that kind of practice.

Just last month, a coworker plumber asked if I could install a HWT for his friend cause he didn't want the extra "work" either, but it's his friend.. so somebody has to do it. Personally, I don't have time to work after work because I have more interesting priorities. And, I'm not sure I'm all that tempted at this point in my life, anyways. Of my previous and current employer, neither were concerned about employees doing work for themselves so long as it doesn't interfere with work time. In fact, my current employer doesn't even care if we use his wholesaler accounts (for his discount) as long as the invoice is charged directly to our own credit cards or paid at the counter.

I work for a sizeable organization, about 80 tradesmen and it's a pain do go through the process of signing out a differential pressure gauge as I don't generally do that kind of work. I needed the backflow preventer tested on my irrigation system, so I asked a friend I met in plumbing school and offered to pay him cash or have his company bill me to come test it. He asked his boss who replied: We don't do residential work, so as far as I'm concerned, you can borrow the equipment and it's none of my business. So friend says, I'll bring the gauge over, but you test it yourself and buy me a beer. LOL

Medical clinics do not have a problem with their doctors running a practice of their own, on their own time. I know lawyers who do side jobs and pro bono side jobs with explicit permission from the law firm that employs them. Accounting firms do not have a problem with their staff accountants taking on side jobs and creating a little hobby-business in tax filing and book keeping from home. In fact, some accounting firms even let their accountants use the firm's tax software afterhours for that specific purpose. What makes the plumbing business any more sacred than medicine, law or accounting?

As tradesmen, whether small employers or employees we don't hestitate to hire another tradesman friend "on the side", like a carpenter, painter or electrician to do something for us in our personal life, knowing full well he has a day job doing exactly that for a business. And as business owners, many got their start learning about business by doing side jobs. Further, there are plenty of small plumbing business owners who take their books to accountants working on the side, or even worse, to an unlicensed book keeper. To the hypocrites among us (and I'm not saying everyone is a hypocrite), get off the high horse already.

The issue isn't about having disloyal or over-worked employees who can't do their day jobs well. If that were the case, side job, baby crying all night, or party too much, any way, the day dreaming employee is fired. The issue is simply a matter of being a control freak and concerned about restricting future competition. More progessive owners and management, and better educated professionals do not have a problem with employees doing side work, providing a conflict of interest does not exist. It is usually the small timer that develops an irrational fear of potential or future competition from employees. Of course, there are also unscrupulous employees.


----------



## Prscptn Plmbng

wundumguy said:


> That wouldn't be strictly moonlighting or doing side jobs for yourself. We call that stealing. I certainly don't condone that kind of practice.
> 
> Just last month, a coworker plumber asked if I could install a HWT for his friend cause he didn't want the extra "work" either, but it's his friend.. so somebody has to do it. Personally, I don't have time to work after work because I have more interesting priorities. And, I'm not sure I'm all that tempted at this point in my life, anyways. Of my previous and current employer, neither were concerned about employees doing work for themselves so long as it doesn't interfere with work time. In fact, my current employer doesn't even care if we use his wholesaler accounts (for his discount) as long as the invoice is charged directly to our own credit cards or paid at the counter.
> 
> I work for a sizeable organization, about 80 tradesmen and it's a pain do go through the process of signing out a differential pressure gauge as I don't generally do that kind of work. I needed the backflow preventer tested on my irrigation system, so I asked a friend I met in plumbing school and offered to pay him cash or have his company bill me to come test it. He asked his boss who replied: We don't do residential work, so as far as I'm concerned, you can borrow the equipment and it's none of my business. So friend says, I'll bring the gauge over, but you test it yourself and buy me a beer. LOL
> 
> Medical clinics do not have a problem with their doctors running a practice of their own, on their own time. I know lawyers who do side jobs and pro bono side jobs with explicit permission from the law firm that employs them. Accounting firms do not have a problem with their staff accountants taking on side jobs and creating a little hobby-business in tax filing and book keeping from home. In fact, some accounting firms even let their accountants use the firm's tax software afterhours for that specific purpose. What makes the plumbing business any more sacred than medicine, law or accounting?
> 
> As tradesmen, whether small employers or employees we don't hestitate to hire another tradesman friend "on the side", like a carpenter, painter or electrician to do something for us in our personal life, knowing full well he has a day job doing exactly that for a business. And as business owners, many got their start learning about business by doing side jobs. Further, there are plenty of small plumbing business owners who take their books to accountants working on the side, or even worse, to an unlicensed book keeper. To the hypocrites among us (and I'm not saying everyone is a hypocrite), get off the high horse already.
> 
> The issue isn't about having disloyal or over-worked employees who can't do their day jobs well. If that were the case, side job, baby crying all night, or party too much, any way, the day dreaming employee is fired. The issue is simply a matter of being a control freak and concerned about restricting future competition. More progessive owners and management, and better educated professionals do not have a problem with employees doing side work, providing a conflict of interest does not exist. It is usually the small timer that develops an irrational fear of potential or future competition from employees. Of course, there are also unscrupulous employees.


In my twelve years I've had tons of customers bauk at the price of the job and ask if I would be willing to do it on the side...thats stealing for sure and when I hear of someone doing side jobs thats what I think of... As far as doing work for family members and friends I don't see an issue as long as you don't steal parts, time, gas or customers from your boss...


----------



## Pipe Rat

I think one of the reasons there is so much debate is the differing regulations. In my area a mofo needs to be licensed bonded and insured, a registered business with the secretary of state and local municipalities, a tax paying entity etc.

Wanna put yourself out for hire big boy? Then do it the right way mofo. What's a matter, you scared? 

You guys all devalue the trade for your own selfish reasons. 

Level the playing field and I welcome the competition. But keep doing it your way and your no better than any other hack out there.

I take my trade and my hard earned license seriously. Come to my area and let me find out where your working I'll turn you in in a heartbeat and smile when they suspend your journeymans license. What ya gonna do for a job now cupcake? Piss off.


----------



## RealLivePlumber

What side of the bed did you wake up on this morning?:laughing:


----------



## Pipe Rat

RealLivePlumber said:


> What side of the bed did you wake up on this morning?:laughing:


LOL Hey I made it through over a hundred posts of these quacks defending their actions before I blew a gasket. :thumbup: I thought I showed respectable restraint. :laughing:


----------



## pauliplumber

Just wondering.

Is there a single business owner here that has never done one side job before they were licensed, insured, bonded, had all their own equiptment, tools, truck, etc. etc.

Not for your parents, uncle, neighbor?

C'mon now, be honest.

I agree side jobbing for alot of reasons, most of the time, is not a good idea.

I also think some of us are being a little hypocritical.


----------



## ianclapham

pauliplumber said:


> Just wondering.
> 
> Is there a single business owner here that has never done one side job before they were licensed, insured, bonded, had all their own equiptment, tools, truck, etc. etc.
> 
> Not for your parents, uncle, neighbor?
> 
> C'mon now, be honest.
> 
> I agree side jobbing for alot of reasons, most of the time, is not a good idea.
> 
> I also think some of us are being a little hypocritical.


family is different in my opinion..........close family yes distant family no.


----------



## Will

pauliplumber said:


> Just wondering.
> 
> Is there a single business owner here that has never done one side job before they were licensed, insured, bonded, had all their own equiptment, tools, truck, etc. etc.
> 
> Not for your parents, uncle, neighbor?
> 
> C'mon now, be honest.
> 
> I agree side jobbing for alot of reasons, most of the time, is not a good idea.
> 
> I also think some of us are being a little hypocritical.


I never have. I never sinned before, never cussed, never gotten mad, never raised my voice on anyone. I'm just a genuine good hearted fellow thats neveer done anything wrong before. I squeak when I walk....


----------



## plbgbiz

pauliplumber said:


> Is there a single business owner here that has never done one side job before they were licensed, insured, bonded, had all their own equiptment, tools, truck, etc. etc....


I did ONE side job before having my own license, insurance, and vehicle. I helped my dad repipe his house. Other than that, NO!

So again for those that missed it the first hundred times it was said by many...

*IF YOUR TOO SLOW, TOO WEAK, TOO LAZY, TOO SCARED, TOO ARROGANT, TOO DISHONEST, TOO GREEDY, TOO SELFISH, AND TOO STUPID TO DO IT THE RIGHT WAY, DON'T EXPECT A PAT ON THE BACK AND FREE PASS FROM THOSE OF US THAT DID.* :furious:


----------



## luv2plumb

The owner of the last company I worked for is good friends with my grandfather. The only "side work" I did was at my own house or for family. My boss kept me to busy on nights and weekends jackhammering concrete and digging trenches. So to answer the question I never did a side job; and the work I did for family was for practice and wasn't paid.


----------



## Qball415

Some of you guys must have bumped your heads:bangin: And forgot even "charity work for family" are still side jobs. That is a payable job to a lic. plumber....Im just saying.:whistling2:


----------



## plbgbiz

CoCo Plumbing said:


> Some of you guys must have bumped your heads:bangin: And forgot even "charity work for family" are still side jobs. That is a payable job to a lic. plumber....Im just saying.:whistling2:


On this we will have to agree to disagree. It would take a cold hearted person to not assist an immediate family member in need if you possess the ability to help.

I put that in a completely different category than a person that willing and illegally makes a regular practice of doing work they do not have the credentials to perform just so they can make an illegal buck.


----------



## Redwood

CoCo Plumbing said:


> Some of you guys must have bumped your heads:bangin: And forgot even "charity work for family" are still side jobs. That is a payable job to a lic. plumber....Im just saying.:whistling2:


Yep... I've found that if I make them wait long enough they usually hire someone that isn't so busy... :laughing:

Works for me.... :thumbup:

I'll tell you...
I'm an employee and when I punch out, I'm not plumbing...
Ask my wife...
She's a relative and she's getting ready to hire someone to fix a dripping Delta lav faucet... :laughing:
If she asks real nice I'll probably hand her a screwdriver and a wrench and teach her how to do it herself...:yes:


----------



## Qball415

Call me what you want just dont call me for free work! I charge everyone family or not!:yes: Plumbing is a luxury people take for granted and forget what "plumbers" charge for their work.


----------



## PlumberShep

plbgbiz said:


> On this we will have to agree to disagree. It would take a cold hearted person to not assist an immediate family member in need if you possess the ability to help.
> 
> I put that in a completely different category than a person that willing and illegally makes a regular practice of doing work they do not have the credentials to perform just so they can make an illegal buck.


Doesnt really matter that you want to categorize it differently, it is still illegal.Doing it for free doesnt make it legal.


----------



## stillaround

Well well well, now I've heard from the righteous, self righteous, the frustrated outraged, the calm and the inbetween on the evils of side jobs.........Oh they are not so bad when you compare it to a lot of things some might not want to admit that they do or have done......
a lot of things are illegal and people do them......
a lot of people take risks every day and justify it......
but when it comes to side jobs..look out....you evil vile industry raping, cheating low life vermin, ......then again cut me 10% and I'll cover you if you get in trouble...do a good job,...charge em good...give me cash. My 1st boss years ago never resented me for side work and had another who didnt care for it......SO WHAT.......


----------



## wundumguy

Pipe Rat said:


> I think one of the reasons there is so much debate is the differing regulations...


I think you hit the nail on the head, at least in so far as the regulations argument goes.

There does not exist a Master or Contractor certificate beyond the Journeyman certificate in British Columbia. A Plumbing Contractor Licence is just a cheap Business Licence that anyone can obtain through a rubber stamp process. Further, minor repair and re/re work that many here might consider plumbing, is not regulated - does not require a plumbing permit, an inspection, a plumbing certificate, a plumbing contractor, nor liability insurance. Around here, there is nothing illegal about doing minor unregulated plumbing work after your day job.

If one must open or go into a wall to effect a repair, a permit is required, which must be obtained by a Plumbing Contractor, who would be a certified Plumber with a business licence. On the other hand, I've never met a small time residential plumbing contractor who actually took out a permit and got an inspection just because he had to put a hole in a wall to fix a leak. But, around here anyways, it's exactly those small timers who whine loudly about illegal side jobs that are perfectly legal around here.


----------



## Jammyrft

had a side job today, did a re&re on a toilet...




:furious::furious::furious: GOD HELP ME FROM THE SCORN OF PLUMBINGZONE.COM:furious::furious::furious:


I'm the devil corrupting my industry _MY GOD!!!



_I find it pretty funny how some of you look down on side work so heavily. As long as you're not stealing from your employer or cutting into your employers work time WHO THE  CARES!!!


----------



## Jammyrft

wundumguy said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head, at least in so far as the regulations argument goes.
> 
> There does not exist a Master or Contractor certificate beyond the Journeyman certificate in British Columbia. A Plumbing Contractor Licence is just a cheap Business Licence that anyone can obtain through a rubber stamp process. Further, minor repair and re/re work that many here might consider plumbing, is not regulated - does not require a plumbing permit, an inspection, a plumbing certificate, a plumbing contractor, nor liability insurance. Around here, there is nothing illegal about doing minor unregulated plumbing work after your day job.



Exactly, so like I've been saying as long as it doesn't effect your company go ahead and do your damn thing. If you make a mistake and ruin someone's house it's all on you


----------



## Tommy plumber

stillaround said:


> Well well well, now I've heard from the righteous, self righteous, the frustrated outraged, the calm and the inbetween on the evils of side jobs.........Oh they are not so bad when you compare it to a lot of things some might not want to admit that they do or have done......
> a lot of things are illegal and people do them......
> a lot of people take risks every day and justify it......
> but when it comes to side jobs..look out....you evil vile industry raping, cheating low life vermin, ......then again cut me 10% and I'll cover you if you get in trouble...do a good job,...charge em good...give me cash. My 1st boss years ago never resented me for side work and had another who didnt care for it......SO WHAT.......


 



That's what I like about you Still Around, your laid-back, easy-going, moderate approach to stuff. I read through all the posts, and I like yours the best.


----------



## Redwood

Jammyrft said:


> had a side job today, did a re&re on a toilet...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :furious::furious::furious: GOD HELP ME FROM THE SCORN OF PLUMBINGZONE.COM:furious::furious::furious:
> 
> 
> I'm the devil corrupting my industry _MY GOD!!!
> 
> 
> 
> _I find it pretty funny how some of you look down on side work so heavily. As long as you're not stealing from your employer or cutting into your employers work time WHO THE  CARES!!!


Yea we found your ad...
http://www.plumbingzone.com/f13/post-your-funny-craigs-list-9245/index5/#post166806


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## CBP

We do quite a bit of remodeling work, and used to have a guy who was a decent service plumber, but was a skilled carpenter, drywaller, etc....typical Jack-of -all-trades. My policy has always been:

1. NEVER any plumbing work....period! (Ok...if your mom's sink is leaking, and you replace a p-trap, just give me the 2 bucks for the parts, but that'd be about it.) You have *MY* van full of *MY* tools and *MY* materials, and you even have a stack of *MY* T&M invoices. If someone calls you to do plumbing on a Saturday, charge them time and a half, and I'll pay you time and a half.

2. NEVER *any* work for an existing customer without consulting me. If they want their bathroom remodeled, and it involves plumbing, carpentry, tile, painting, drywall...etc., we routinely general the whole job. Some I do in house, other trades I sub-contract, but THAT'S MY BUSINESS. Thats what I have licenses, insurance and bonds for. That's what spend many $$$ on advertising for.

3. If you want to do something NOT related to my business (landscaping, roofing, transmission repair, dog walking), be my guest. I really don't care what you do with your own time, as long as it doesn't affect my business, or your productivity. And if you can make a few bucks, God bless you. But if you call in sick on Monday cuz your back hurts from spending all weekend digging in a Koi pond for your neighbor, expect to get a few more days off. If it happens again, you can take the rest of the decade off.


----------



## CBP

wundumguy said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head, at least in so far as the regulations argument goes.
> 
> There does not exist a Master or Contractor certificate beyond the Journeyman certificate in British Columbia. A Plumbing Contractor Licence is just a cheap Business Licence that anyone can obtain through a rubber stamp process. Further, minor repair and re/re work that many here might consider plumbing, is not regulated - does not require a plumbing permit, an inspection, a plumbing certificate, a plumbing contractor, nor liability insurance. Around here, there is nothing illegal about doing minor unregulated plumbing work after your day job.
> 
> If one must open or go into a wall to effect a repair, a permit is required, which must be obtained by a Plumbing Contractor, who would be a certified Plumber with a business licence. On the other hand, I've never met a small time residential plumbing contractor who actually took out a permit and got an inspection just because he had to put a hole in a wall to fix a leak. But, around here anyways, it's exactly those small timers who whine loudly about illegal side jobs that are perfectly legal around here.



This sounds like the typical employee, thinking that the business owner is making money hand over fist because they charge $90 an hour and only pay you $35 (or whatever the current exchange rate is). You're forgetting all of the rest that goes into it. In Illinois, not only do I have to take out a contractors license in addition to my plumber's license, that requires me to have full liability and workers comp insurance. I also provide a full medical plan for my employees. Add in rent for the shop, gas, electric, cell phones, advertising, the secretary who cuts your payroll check, vehicle repairs, insurance and fuel, tools, continuing education...the list goes on, (including 'shrinkage' - the cost of materials that go unaccounted for from employees). I have had rough years when my employees made more money than me! because I realize that they are the ones who produce the income, and I have taken the risk of being in business. I will say that my payroll has ALWAYS been the first bill I pay. If I have to buy another week from the phone company, I will, but my guys get their checks every Wednesday, no matter what!
The bottom line is, IT'S A BUSINESS. I am not just a plumber, I am a Plumbing Contractor. I have built a business, a reputation and a marketable commodity. and I have invested tens of thousands hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars building that. And to have someone I have trusted with my equipment, as well as my reputation, to try to steal my work... someone I am paying maybe $60,000 a year plus benefits.... is unacceptable. I already have plenty of legitimate, licensed plumbing contractors for my competition. I don't need my own working against me.

And, BTW, you can now say you know someone who HAS taken out a permit and had an inspection for minor repairs. Not everything, obviously, but if a permit is required, I take it out. It's a lot less hassle than trying to cover your a$$ later.


----------



## stillaround

Tommy plumber said:


> That's what I like about you Still Around, your laid-back, easy-going, moderate approach to stuff. I read through all the posts, and I like yours the best.


 Im being careful because I'm pretty off base and you might be being sarcastic...which I deserve...stirring the pot a bit......I know they are illegal, bad for the industry, not fair and harmful to legit biz owners and potentially harmful to the health and home. Its a big risk if one gets caught but they seem still very commonplace. In any case , thanks...and I do agree they shouldnt be done.


----------



## smoldrn

A couple of things that haven't been mentioned yet..1., if you're doing side work & something happens like water damage, ect., the HO has no recourse against you because you're not a licensed, insured contractor. 2. In this state the HO really doesn't have to pay you, because you're representing yourself as a contractor when you agreed to do the job, whether you said you were licensed or not.
I actually went through the second part years ago where a preacher & his wife found out that my buddy wasn't licensed on their remodel, talked with their attorney, & said they didn't have to pay anyone due to no licenses.
I opened my wallet & started throwing licenses on the counter, asked them if they wanted to speak with my lawyer before they decided to withhold payment from me.


----------



## 504Plumber

smoldrn said:


> A couple of things that haven't been mentioned yet..1., if you're doing side work & something happens like water damage, ect., the HO has no recourse against you because you're not a licensed, insured contractor. 2. In this state the HO really doesn't have to pay you, because you're representing yourself as a contractor when you agreed to do the job, whether you said you were licensed or not.
> I actually went through the second part years ago where a preacher & his wife found out that my buddy wasn't licensed on their remodel, talked with their attorney, & said they didn't have to pay anyone due to no licenses.
> I opened my wallet & started throwing licenses on the counter, asked them if they wanted to speak with my lawyer before they decided to withhold payment from me.



You're so right, I've never heard those points before.


----------



## wundumguy

CBP said:


> This sounds like the typical employee thinking that the business owner is making money hand over fist...


You shouldn't compare my writing to that of a "typical" employee, if such an animal exists. And, you should not assume you know what I'm thinking unless you think that I think you're an a$$.



> You're forgetting all of the rest...


Like uhm... seriously man, you need to slow down: Read the pipe rat post that was quoted, then re-read the post you've quoted. This part of the discussion was on (1) the perception of (il)legitimacy of side jobs in jurisdictions with lax regulations, and (2) the irony and hypocricy of simultaneously ignoring regulations while advancing the falsehood that unregulated work requires a licence in a relaxed jurisdiction. We aren't talking about ethics or justification or administration or operations... only the relationship between regulation and perceived (il)legitimacy of after hours self-employment. I didn't "forget" anything. You however, need to slow down. Don't you slow down if you can't safely drive that fast? Shouldn't you slow down if you can't read that fast?



> And, BTW, you can now say you know someone who HAS taken out a permit and had an inspection for minor repairs...


And, BTW, you can now say you need to go back to high school and learn to read.

There was no suggestion that I don't know any contractors that obtained permits whenever required. The paragraph is about small time residential contractors in a jurisdiction with relaxed regulations and their hypocricy. You can't tell someone that what they're doing is illegal if it is perfectly legal in the jurisdiction in question. Well, I guess you can always tell them that, but it would by lying. Business ethics or whatever else is an entirely different matter. So, unless you're doing business up here, you need to work on your reading comprehension.

I believe I generally debate and discuss matters objectively. At least I don't remember making things personal or misquoting or misrepresenting another person's statements. However, if you insist on quoting me out of context, misrepresenting my statements, or talking down to me, don't expect me to play nice.


----------



## Jammyrft

wundumguy said:


> You shouldn't compare my writing to that of a "typical" employee, if such an animal exists. And, you should not assume you know what I'm thinking unless you think that I think you're an a$$.
> 
> 
> Like uhm... seriously man, you need to slow down: Read the pipe rat post that was quoted, then re-read the post you've quoted. This part of the discussion was on (1) the perception of (il)legitimacy of side jobs in jurisdictions with lax regulations, and (2) the irony and hypocricy of simultaneously ignoring regulations while advancing the falsehood that unregulated work requires a licence in a relaxed jurisdiction. We aren't talking about ethics or justification or administration or operations... only the relationship between regulation and perceived (il)legitimacy of after hours self-employment. I didn't "forget" anything. You however, need to slow down. Don't you slow down if you can't safely drive that fast? Shouldn't you slow down if you can't read that fast?
> 
> 
> And, BTW, you can now say you need to go back to high school and learn to read.
> 
> There was no suggestion that I don't know any contractors that obtained permits whenever required. The paragraph is about small time residential contractors in a jurisdiction with relaxed regulations and their hypocricy. You can't tell someone that what they're doing is illegal if it is perfectly legal in the jurisdiction in question. Well, I guess you can always tell them that, but it would by lying. Business ethics or whatever else is an entirely different matter. So, unless you're doing business up here, you need to work on your reading comprehension.
> 
> I believe I generally debate and discuss matters objectively. At least I don't remember making things personal or misquoting or misrepresenting another person's statements. However, if you insist on quoting me out of context, misrepresenting my statements, or talking down to me, don't expect me to play nice.


:laughing:


----------



## Widdershins

Reading some of these posts makes me glad my apprenticeship is decades behind me and grateful I had a boss during my training who was a decent guy.

Great -- Lets train a whole new generation of Plumbers to be paranoid, distrustful, mean spirited, greedy and overbearing arseholes.

Some of you guys really have no business having employees -- Let alone being in a position to train Apprentices.


----------



## 422 plumber

Widdershins said:


> Reading some of these posts makes me glad my apprenticeship is decades behind me and grateful I had a boss during my training who was a decent guy.
> 
> Great -- Lets train a whole new generation of Plumbers to be paranoid, distrustful, mean spirited, greedy and overbearing arseholes.
> 
> Some of you guys really have no business having employees -- Let alone being in a position to train Apprentices.


wait, I don't get the gist of your post, are you saying that plumbers who disapprove of their trade being whored out are paranoid, distrustful, mean spirited, greedy and overbearing arseholes?
Or the ones doing the whoring are paranoid, distrustful, mean spirited, greedy and overbearing arseholes?


----------



## Widdershins

jjbex said:


> wait, I don't get the gist of your post, are you saying that plumbers who disapprove of their trade being whored out are paranoid, distrustful, mean spirited, greedy and overbearing arseholes?
> Or the ones doing the whoring are paranoid, distrustful, mean spirited, greedy and overbearing arseholes?


If I had meant either one of those things, then I would have come right out and said those things.


----------



## 422 plumber

Widdershins said:


> If I had meant either one of those things, then I would have come right out and said those things.


I am still not understanding your post. Seriously, who are you ripping on?


----------



## Widdershins

jjbex said:


> I am still not understanding your post. Seriously, who are you ripping on?


 Re-read the thread from beginning to end and take note of the general attitude some of the posters have towards their employees.


----------



## 422 plumber

Widdershins said:


> Re-read the thread from beginning to end and take note of the general attitude some of the posters have towards their employees.


nope


----------



## ianclapham

aaa


----------



## Airgap




----------



## CBP

wundumguy said:


> You shouldn't compare my writing to that of a "typical" employee, if such an animal exists. And, you should not assume you know what I'm thinking unless you think that I think you're an a$$.
> 
> 
> Like uhm... seriously man, you need to slow down: Read the pipe rat post that was quoted, then re-read the post you've quoted. This part of the discussion was on (1) the perception of (il)legitimacy of side jobs in jurisdictions with lax regulations, and (2) the irony and hypocricy of simultaneously ignoring regulations while advancing the falsehood that unregulated work requires a licence in a relaxed jurisdiction. We aren't talking about ethics or justification or administration or operations... only the relationship between regulation and perceived (il)legitimacy of after hours self-employment. I didn't "forget" anything. You however, need to slow down. Don't you slow down if you can't safely drive that fast? Shouldn't you slow down if you can't read that fast?
> 
> 
> And, BTW, you can now say you need to go back to high school and learn to read.
> _*
> There was no suggestion that I don't know any contractors that obtained permits whenever required*_. The paragraph is about small time residential contractors in a jurisdiction with relaxed regulations and their hypocricy. You can't tell someone that what they're doing is illegal if it is perfectly legal in the jurisdiction in question. Well, I guess you can always tell them that, but it would by lying. Business ethics or whatever else is an entirely different matter. So, unless you're doing business up here, you need to work on your reading comprehension.
> 
> I believe I generally debate and discuss matters objectively. At least I don't remember making things personal or misquoting or misrepresenting another person's statements. However, if you insist on quoting me out of context, misrepresenting my statements, or talking down to me, don't expect me to play nice.


Quoted from post 122:
If one must open or go into a wall to effect a repair, a permit is required, which must be obtained by a Plumbing Contractor, who would be a certified Plumber with a business licence. On the other hand, I've _*never met *_a small time residential plumbing contractor who actually took out a permit and got an inspection just because he had to put a hole in a wall to fix a leak. But, around here anyways, it's exactly those small timers who whine loudly about illegal side jobs that are perfectly legal around here.



ok....sorry for, umm, misinterpreting what you said.

Didn't mean to come off as offensive, but I have had employees who have abused what I provide. Bottom line is, I spend ALOT of time, money and effort to have a reputable business. I AM a small time contractor, only 4 employees right now...most I've ever had was about 10. When I see my van parked in a driveway on a Sunday, with a pipe threader set up in the driveway, and dont see a ticket for it on Monday morning, I get a little miffed.


----------



## U666A

Well, here is the only input that I can add to the thread: tell me if you guys thinks it's right or wrong...

A couple of years ago, my grandfather approached me about adding a bathroom in his basement. He said he would pay cash. The contractor that I work for does not do residential... Period, but I asked my foreman anyway if they would give him a quote. They respectfully declined. I however, had the master whom I work under, come out and have a look. He pulled a permit, and told me to do the work. I first called the union hall to ask their position on side jobs. I was told that if it was for a relative, and I was not charging anything, that it was not against the constitution. I had my master (permit puller) come by before inspection to witness the test, and also to be there during inspection. All material was ordered through the contractor I work for's account at their discount (they were well aware, and even encouraged it) and they even let me borrow a breaker and a set of snap cutters. Other than the cost of material, no money exchanged hands, and I did a huge favor for my papa who is on a fixed income...

Is this wrong?
Any questions?


----------



## bartnc37

I think in our apprenticeship handbook it said you can do work for your parents and grandparents as long as no money is exchanged. Other than that your not supposed to fart without the prior written approval of your employer.


----------



## CBP

Nothing wrong with that at all. In fact, it sounds like you did everything just right. You approached your employer, who declined the work, yet was willing to work with you. You talked to your hall, who said it was ok. And grandpa knew he got a good job done by someone he could trust. Permits pulled, inspection done, not only by the inspector, but by your sponsor/master plumber. 

I know I sounded a little harsh in an earlier post. It was at 1:00 am after a helluva long day. Didn't mean to sound like Hitler.
I am not opposed to an employee helping out a family member. Hell, I re-did my parents kitchen, and of course I didn't charge them for my services. The only problem I have is when guys try to do it under the radar, and take work from under my nose.


----------



## Plumber3653

I don't see anything wrong with it. As an employee, but holding a Master's license, I choose not to do side work for a number of reasons. One of those reasons is that I don't believe in taking work away from the company who commits itself to providing me with a steady paycheck, health insurance, company truck, etc. With the exception of small repairs (toilets,faucets) for close relatives, I offer all other work to my employer first. If he declines then another plumber has to do the work. BTW, he has never declined. I also inform him of any small repair work that I do so that there are no misunderstandings as to where my loyalties are. My employer DOES however allow side work and allows us to use the company accounts to get the needed materials. I completely understand where any business owners are coming from when they frown upon side work from their employees.


----------



## U666A

The only other one would be when I replaced the cartridges in my grandmothers old salted shower valve. I did accept payment for that however, 1 dozen of her world famous gingerbread cookies. I actually enlisted the help of the forum on that one. Does something like that actually require a permit? I never even thought about obtaining one. 

Nothing beats the smile on grandmas face when she exclaims "I can turn off the shower again!". She has rheumatoid pretty bad in both her hands and thinks I am a hero for helping her out.


----------



## CBP

#1 - a batch of homemade cookies from grandma is priceless....you probably should have given her change.

#2 - Most places around here, no... changing cartridges doesn't require a permit, that would be considered a minor repair. Nor does replacing a faucet, toilet, etc. as long as they are remaining in the same location. If I move the closet collar or change a rough from a single to a double lav, that would require a permit. 

Some areas require a permit for a water heater change-out, others don't. One even requires 2 permits for an electric water heater! (separate inspectors, plumbing and electrical) Kinda BS in my book, but I gave up fighting city hall a long time ago. 

But that brings us back to the origin of this post. If I'm doing it by the book....permits and inspections...how in the heck can I compete with a guy doing it for 25 bucks an hour on Saturday?


----------



## Widdershins

I've been following this thread since I started it and I thought I should reiterate a few points and expand on a few others.

We're a small shop -- Owner (Me) and 3 Journeyman Plumbers.

We don't advertise.

We don't do Service work.

Washington State doesn't recognize the Master Plumber designation.

We've been in business for close to 30 years.

My newest employee has been with me for 16 years.

Homeowners are allowed to pull their own permits.

A licensed Journeyman Plumber is allowed to own a Plumbing Company.

A licensed Journeyman Plumber is allowed to work under the umbrella of a licensed and bonded GC.

I don't offer my guys benefits -- I match their 401k contributions, but I don't offer either medical or dental.

We aren't Union -- Ask me sometime what I think of the local Union and I'll give you an earful.

I encourage my guys to take on side work -- Sometimes I'll even provide the permit (for a percentage, of course).

I encourage them because they're good at what they do and because I know I don't stand a snowballs chance in hell of running those jobs through the company.

I trust my guys -- If they take a part off of one of my trucks or out of my shop, then I know they're going to either replace it or reimburse me for it.

Frankly, I'm baffled by the inherent distrust so many of you seem to have for your employees.

Here's the rub: I recognize that Washington State is about as Liberal as it gets -- They call it the 'Left Coast' for a reason, after-all.

I get the concerns about liability -- Truly, I get it.

I was going to go on in about 6 or 7 directions, but the Old Lady just walked in with a tumbler of Bird and Water.

See Ya.

Y'all are on your own.


----------



## Tommy plumber

stillaround said:


> Im being careful because I'm pretty off base and you might be being sarcastic...which I deserve...stirring the pot a bit......I know they are illegal, bad for the industry, not fair and harmful to legit biz owners and potentially harmful to the health and home. Its a big risk if one gets caught but they seem still very commonplace. In any case , thanks...and I do agree they shouldnt be done.


 



I can assure you no sarcasm or satire was the intent. I've done the dreaded 'side job'. Heck, I have even done them while being paid and on the clock. Was I stupid, yes. Was I wrong, Yes. Was I greedy and cheating my boss at the time, Yes. Do I regret it, yes I do. But I am not going to beat up someone too badly who changes a faucet on a saturday afternoon after working all week for a plumbing company. At least the side-jobber is a plumber; what burns my rear-end is these GC's who won't sub-contract the plumbing work (like the law states they should) but have their guys installing fixtures, tub valves, etc. Those are the guys that really burn me up.


----------



## Qball415

Enough is Enough! Where are the MODS to close this neverending thread!?:ban:


----------



## stillaround

CoCo ...this hasnt even gotten bad yet....chillax......you learn more about people when they start launching on a point...some newer folks here...fun to see their perspective and debate abilities.....and which of the other threads is doing this....


----------



## SlickRick

Close it? I was thinking of making it a sticky.


----------



## stillaround

Widdershins said:


> I've been following this thread since I started it and I thought I should reiterate a few points and expand on a few others.
> 
> We're a small shop -- Owner (Me) and 3 Journeyman Plumbers.
> 
> We don't advertise.
> 
> We don't do Service work.
> 
> Washington State doesn't recognize the Master Plumber designation.
> 
> We've been in business for close to 30 years.
> 
> My newest employee has been with me for 16 years.
> 
> Homeowners are allowed to pull their own permits.
> 
> A licensed Journeyman Plumber is allowed to own a Plumbing Company.
> 
> A licensed Journeyman Plumber is allowed to work under the umbrella of a licensed and bonded GC.
> 
> I don't offer my guys benefits -- I match their 401k contributions, but I don't offer either medical or dental.
> 
> We aren't Union -- Ask me sometime what I think of the local Union and I'll give you an earful.
> 
> I encourage my guys to take on side work -- Sometimes I'll even provide the permit (for a percentage, of course).
> 
> I encourage them because they're good at what they do and because I know I don't stand a snowballs chance in hell of running those jobs through the company.
> 
> I trust my guys -- If they take a part off of one of my trucks or out of my shop, then I know they're going to either replace it or reimburse me for it.
> 
> Frankly, I'm baffled by the inherent distrust so many of you seem to have for your employees.
> 
> Here's the rub: I recognize that Washington State is about as Liberal as it gets -- They call it the 'Left Coast' for a reason, after-all.
> 
> I get the concerns about liability -- Truly, I get it.
> 
> I was going to go on in about 6 or 7 directions, but the Old Lady just walked in with a tumbler of Bird and Water.
> 
> See Ya.
> 
> Y'all are on your own.


.....its easier to be new construction snatching some service calls than to have someone step in on your new work turf. Service calls are finite pie....slicing some off does effect others especially in a smaller locale.......but if its a big city, not that much impact....and ....someone might just tell on you about the Old Lady comment if you dont behave:laughing:....at least you capitalized out of respect.


----------



## U666A

CBP said:


> #1 - a batch of homemade cookies from grandma is priceless....you probably should have given her change.
> 
> #2 - Most places around here, no... changing cartridges doesn't require a permit, that would be considered a minor repair. Nor does replacing a faucet, toilet, etc. as long as they are remaining in the same location. If I move the closet collar or change a rough from a single to a double lav, that would require a permit.
> 
> Some areas require a permit for a water heater change-out, others don't. One even requires 2 permits for an electric water heater! (separate inspectors, plumbing and electrical) Kinda BS in my book, but I gave up fighting city hall a long time ago.
> 
> But that brings us back to the origin of this post. If I'm doing it by the book....permits and inspections...how in the heck can I compete with a guy doing it for 25 bucks an hour on Saturday?


Thank you, CBP, for clearing that up. As a new const plumber in the ICI sector, I was honestly unaware of what requires a permit vs. What doesn't. 

As far as g-mo's cookies are concerned... Pm me with your address and you'll be in heaven!

Thanks again.

P.S. Widdershins, have you ever worked for the union? If so, in what capacity? Worker? Foreman? GF? Superintendent? Steward? Health and safety rep? Until you have held all of these positions, you have no right to bash what you do not fully understand. I have never held your exact position and therefore I would not cut you down. There are people within my local that are ignorant like you, who think they are god's gift to plumbing and that the other side is defunct. The reality is, we need eachother to keep our rates fair and by us tearing eachother apart, we hurt everyone. Think before you post.


----------



## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

Tommy plumber said:


> ; what burns my rear-end is these GC's who won't sub-contract the plumbing work (like the law states they should) but have their guys installing fixtures, tub valves, etc. Those are the guys that really burn me up.


What burns me up are the plumbers pulling the permits for these guys

Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone


----------



## falloutman22

*Maybe my boss is being greedy>>>*

On several occasions I have brought clients to my boss with no compensation to me. A good number of those people won't do business with him now because they want me to be the one coming to their house or place of business. My boss has me dedicated to other jobs and obligations. They call me back and want only me to come to do the work because they know me and not the other guys that work with me.. I have a very difficult time with this because I am aware of the trouble that can be caused by not having insurance or permits. I wish that i could get a bonus for that extra business I bring him, but he tells me that is part of my job with his company, to bring in more clients. Many of the people that call me end up calling another plumbing company because they don't think it is fair that I don't get the work or a bonus. I do feel I am doing the right thing by being honest and true to the boss man but is he in the right for not rewarding me????:confused1::confused1::confused1:


----------



## CBP

falloutman22 said:


> On several occasions I have brought clients to my boss with no compensation to me. A good number of those people won't do business with him now because they want me to be the one coming to their house or place of business. My boss has me dedicated to other jobs and obligations. They call me back and want only me to come to do the work because they know me and not the other guys that work with me.. I have a very difficult time with this because I am aware of the trouble that can be caused by not having insurance or permits. I wish that i could get a bonus for that extra business I bring him, but he tells me that is part of my job with his company, to bring in more clients. Many of the people that call me end up calling another plumbing company because they don't think it is fair that I don't get the work or a bonus. I do feel I am doing the right thing by being honest and true to the boss man but is he in the right for not rewarding me????:confused1::confused1::confused1:



That's a tough one, fallout. several years ago, we had a guy working for us, SUPER service plumber...the best....customers loved him. Unfortunately, alot of our work was new residential construction at the time. What service work we did do, I usually sent him on them, cuz he was the best. 

Unfortunately for me, many of my service customers came to associate him as the only representative of our company (I know...looking back, it's my own fault...I'm in the future too). When things got slow, he decided to start off on his own. And when customers started asking me where Steve was, it was hard.

Today, He's still a good friend, and a competitor of mine. He, and a few others in the area, I work with regularly. If we get in a bind and need an extra hand... or are going out of town, and want to refer calls to someone who we can trust not to pilfer our customers, He is one of the few I can work with.

Maybe you could reach an agreement with your boss that any work you bring to the company, you will be the man for the job. You keep working, your boss gets the job and the customer has the guy they want in their house.


----------



## user2090

I had a thought today for all those who engage in side work, and fail to understand why business owners get so wound up on this or other issues. 

Let me ask a question. If you are a licensed plumber or apprentice.

Were you, or are you so impertinent to the journeyman or master that trained you? Instead of listening to guys who are more knowledgeable in this arena than you are, and taking notes on what might be your future. You instead decide to throw it back in their faces, and treat them(not me I am to new at this) with a level of disrespect that would never be allowed in the workplace. 

Is this the same attitude you have when dealing with customers? 

Take the information in this thread, and learn from it.


----------



## Widdershins

stillaround said:


> ....someone might just tell on you about the Old Lady comment if you dont behave:laughing:....at least you capitalized out of respect.


 The Bird is the Word.

http://www.kontraband.com/videos/14222/Peter-Griffins-Surfin-Bird/


----------



## plbgbiz

falloutman22 said:


> ...Many of the people that call me end up calling another plumbing company because they don't think it is fair that I don't get the work or a bonus...


Why are you discussing your pay and benefits with customers? There is NEVER a time for that.


----------



## nhmaster3015

I have been trying to think of how many I have fired for doing side work over the years. Suffice to say, it's more than I can remember. You wanna work on your own then start your own company and use your own tools, truck and material and pay your own expenses. Side work hacks are the worst kind of scum.


----------



## Greenguy

Let me ask this, I am just an employee right now, I have paid for all my own tools over the years, only thing I don't own yet is a medium to large auger and a threader. If I pick up my own service van, use my own tools, materials, wholesaler cash account am I still in the wrong, where I live this is no master plumber (BC) I have my gas and journeymen ticket.


----------



## jeffreyplumber

If You are a service plumber that has a company truck , tools and material using them on a side job or doing jobs for existing custumers on the down low. thats pretty low. But What if you work for a company that does new construction big jobs and you have no company truck etc. and you got a garbage disposal or a faucet to install no competition to your employer. Or say you work for another contractor because the"full Time" company doesent have enough work? There are a lot of companys that arent the greatest as are employees. I hold and maintain a plumbing contractors liscence and recomend it. Just to be on the safe side. Ive been both employer and employee. I dont got that big ego that I own my employee. Sometimes the man that gets burned is the one that has it coming.


----------



## plbgbiz

Widdershins said:


> Reading some of these posts makes me glad my apprenticeship is decades behind me and grateful I had a boss during my training who was a decent guy.
> Great -- Lets train a whole new generation of Plumbers to be paranoid, distrustful, mean spirited, greedy and overbearing arseholes.
> Some of you guys really have no business having employees -- Let alone being in a position to train Apprentices.


So which "guys" would that be? Those that expect the rule of law to be enforced equally? Those that did not have an illegal and tax evading operation but have to compete with those that do? Those that have new construction side jobbers under cutting real businesses? Those that paid the FULL price of admission into the world of business operations? The ones that put it all on the line risking their families financial well being and future while side jobbers perform illegal work for pennies on the dollar?

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that this is about employers being _"paranoid, distrustful, mean spirited, greedy and overbearing..."_ as you put it. I have a great deal of trust, respect, and even admiration for my past and present employees. I have willingly assisted them in starting their own ventures as well. Hardly the mark of paranoia. Those that got the credentials and desired to be professionals, not hacks.

Since you don't do any service work, you may be insulated from this scourge to a degree and I'm happy for you that you don't have to deal with it. But here there are Professional Plumbing Business Operators that have to pay the FULL price of admission to be in business and they have to daily face illegal competition of side jobbers trying to make a quick buck.

You'd feel different if your phone stopped ringing and the service company plumbers were picking up extra night and weekend work from your GC's.


----------



## Richard Hilliard

I find it odd that during this economic time employers are turning down the work that their employees would bring to them. 

I am a different breed when I am asked to do a side job it is given to the company. All work brought into the company is to help pay my benefits and salary. It makes no sense to cut my own throat and the throats of my co-workers. When my co-workers prosper so do I with more benefits and my bonus is larger.

Have any of you owners thought about paying an incentive to employees for bringing in new work? We give our employees 10 dollars per new customer they bring in. This is done by passing out our cards after hours in restaurants, gas stations or anywhere we go. I even placed an advertisement in our local Eagles club that cost me 5 dollars that has my business card and name it more than pays for itself each month. The office staff asks every client how they discovered us and it is included in a monthly bonus check. 

Trust me I do enough work every day that I do not want to do physical work after hours for myself.


----------



## Jammyrft

I work for a big new construction company. I use my own van and own tools. There's not one thing of my companys I use for any extra work I get on the side. To me there's nothing wrong with that


----------



## Pipe Rat

Jammyrft said:


> I work for a big new construction company. I use my own van and own tools. There's not one thing of my companys I use for any extra work I get on the side. To me there's nothing wrong with that


Hey Jammy are you off work today?


----------



## plbgbiz

Pipe Rat said:


> Hey Jammy are you off work today?


:lol:


----------



## 1703

Jammyrft said:


> I work for a big new construction company. I use my own van and own tools.........


You're part of the way there. Go buy some insurance, pay for some advertising and all the other fun stuff that goes along with it.

This is meant as encouragement, not a slam.

What are waiting for?


----------



## 422 plumber

Jammyrft said:


> I work for a big new construction company. I use my own van and own tools. There's not one thing of my companys I use for any extra work I get on the side. To me there's nothing wrong with that


Yeah,
cuz you aren't realizing you are screwing every legit service plumber.


----------



## Bill

As some here may know I used to own my own company. I also owned a construction company. I let my men do side work on the construction side as long as it was not someone I have turned a bid in to or one of my regular customers. 

Plumbing side? Never. Requires a masters license here in VA, so me allowing them to do it on their own was like condoning plumbing without a license. EXCEPTION: If it was their house, mom and dad, grandpa and grandma or one of their own children then yes, I did not mind that.


----------



## Lifer

easttexasplumb said:


> I predict at least 100 replies


 

Sooooo.. double or nothing ..?

Lol 

Lifer...


----------



## easttexasplumb

Lifer said:


> Sooooo.. double or nothing ..?
> 
> Lol
> 
> Lifer...


What are you trying to take away my invisible toaster. :laughing:


----------



## luv2plumb

Lifer said:


> Sooooo.. double or nothing ..?
> 
> Lol
> 
> Lifer...


Sorry Lifer; I called 200 posts a couple days ago in chat


----------



## Castiron

Indie said:


> I had a thought today for all those who engage in side work, and fail to understand why business owners get so wound up on this or other issues.
> 
> Let me ask a question. If you are a licensed plumber or apprentice.
> 
> Were you, or are you so impertinent to the journeyman or master that trained you? Instead of listening to guys who are more knowledgeable in this arena than you are, and taking notes on what might be your future. You instead decide to throw it back in their faces, and treat them(not me I am to new at this) with a level of disrespect that would never be allowed in the workplace.
> 
> Is this the same attitude you have when dealing with customers?
> 
> Take the information in this thread, and learn from it.


On the contrary I am very grateful for my boss and his training I receive. However I don't believe in stopping employees from doing Side work - it's not that simple.

Most guys don't really want to spend the weekend putting in someones toilet or sink for fun - so money is an issue. I know a guy who was making $13 an hour working for a service guy who billed him out at $140 for the first hour. Now if you were in that guys position and you could make $100 for a Saturday's work you'd see the attraction. $13 is not a liveable wage in a big city - unless you are 18 and live in mums basement (And don't have a drug habit) - and these guys won't be asked to do side work either.

A responsible employee using his own tools and car in his own time is his own problem IMO. If he takes work from the boss or advertises himself during work hours - it is entirely different of course - but let's face it Mr Cheapo Neighbour won't really be calling Classy Mechanical Inc anyways.

And if the side jobber us out of his league (We are talking someone responsible here), guess who will get the job through a referral from his side jobbing employee. So the boss is getting business eventually he wouldn't be getting otherwise, the side jobber is getting some extra cash (For beer or tools depending on priority) and Mr Cheapo is getting a cheap basin put in cheaply.

Who looses? Or who would do the work otherwise? It'll be either a Handyman or a DIY homeowner.


----------



## 422 plumber

Castiron said:


> On the contrary I am very grateful for my boss and his training I receive. However I don't believe in stopping employees from doing Side work - it's not that simple.
> 
> Most guys don't really want to spend the weekend putting in someones toilet or sink for fun - so money is an issue. I know a guy who was making $13 an hour working for a service guy who billed him out at $140 for the first hour. Now if you were in that guys position and you could make $100 for a Saturday's work you'd see the attraction. $13 is not a liveable wage in a big city - unless you are 18 and live in mums basement (And don't have a drug habit) - and these guys won't be asked to do side work either.
> 
> A responsible employee using his own tools and car in his own time is his own problem IMO. If he takes work from the boss or advertises himself during work hours - it is entirely different of course - but let's face it Mr Cheapo Neighbour won't really be calling Classy Mechanical Inc anyways.
> 
> And if the side jobber us out of his league (We are talking someone responsible here), guess who will get the job through a referral from his side jobbing employee. So the boss is getting business eventually he wouldn't be getting otherwise, the side jobber is getting some extra cash (For beer or tools depending on priority) and Mr Cheapo is getting a cheap basin put in cheaply.
> 
> Who looses? Or who would do the work otherwise? It'll be either a Handyman or a DIY homeowner.


Who looses? Everyone. Legit plumbers are loosing work, which sooner or later will come back to hurt the owners of even the commercial shops. The owners won't be able to pay plumbers what they should be worth, because those same plumbers are lowering the expectations of the public. The sidejobbers are training the public to expect rock bottom rates. It's no wonder there are all kinds of cheapo customers, because the sidejobbers are encouraging them!


----------



## plumbpro

jjbex said:


> Who looses? Everyone. Legit plumbers are loosing work, which sooner or later will come back to hurt the owners of even the commercial shops. The owners won't be able to pay plumbers what they should be worth, because those same plumbers are lowering the expectations of the public. The sidejobbers are training the public to expect rock bottom rates. It's no wonder there are all kinds of cheapo customers, because the sidejobbers are encouraging them!


Even if you call it Karma or whatever, the cheapos come back to haunt you after you are a legit business. The same guy that was charging 10 or 15 an hour goes to 90 an hour, and can't figure out why his customers are beating him up on prices and are a general pain in the azz.

Back when I was a 2nd year apprentice someone come up to me and asked me to do some side work, so I asked my boss. He asked me what they were gonna pay me and I think it was like $15 an hour. He said no, If you do it, don't do it for less than $35 or $40. I realize after have many more years of people asking for side work that primarily people looking for the $15 deal are the same people that would not hire a lic. plumber until it is the very last resort. The people that would ask me about side work never hired my boss either, they found some jackleg to do it or did it themselves.


----------



## user2090

Castiron said:


> On the contrary I am very grateful for my boss and his training I receive. However I don't believe in stopping employees from doing Side work - it's not that simple.
> 
> Most guys don't really want to spend the weekend putting in someones toilet or sink for fun - so money is an issue. I know a guy who was making $13 an hour working for a service guy who billed him out at $140 for the first hour. Now if you were in that guys position and you could make $100 for a Saturday's work you'd see the attraction. $13 is not a liveable wage in a big city - unless you are 18 and live in mums basement (And don't have a drug habit) - and these guys won't be asked to do side work either.
> 
> A responsible employee using his own tools and car in his own time is his own problem IMO. If he takes work from the boss or advertises himself during work hours - it is entirely different of course - but let's face it Mr Cheapo Neighbour won't really be calling Classy Mechanical Inc anyways.
> 
> And if the side jobber us out of his league (We are talking someone responsible here), guess who will get the job through a referral from his side jobbing employee. So the boss is getting business eventually he wouldn't be getting otherwise, the side jobber is getting some extra cash (For beer or tools depending on priority) and Mr Cheapo is getting a cheap basin put in cheaply.
> 
> Who looses? Or who would do the work otherwise? It'll be either a Handyman or a DIY homeowner.



First, I do feel for the low wage guy, I have been there. 

Second, under no circumstances do two wrongs make a right. 




jjbex said:


> Who looses? Everyone. Legit plumbers are loosing work, which sooner or later will come back to hurt the owners of even the commercial shops. The owners won't be able to pay plumbers what they should be worth, because those same plumbers are lowering the expectations of the public. The sidejobbers are training the public to expect rock bottom rates. It's no wonder there are all kinds of cheapo customers, because the sidejobbers are encouraging them!


Couldn't agree with you more. I have gained a better understanding of this lately. At one time I did not really see what the harm was in side-jobbing, and would have agreed with Castiron. But, as I got to the tail end of working for someone else, I started to see the ray of light when it comes to understanding. It can be simply put.

As long as there are people, especially licensed plumbers willing to work for low wages, those who are willing to hire them will always have that option. 

Even if the D.I.Y. or handyman does it, most of the time the work will not last. Even now, I am going out and reworking stuff done by D.I.Y. and handyman types.


----------



## falloutman22

plbgbiz said:


> Why are you discussing your pay and benefits with customers? There is NEVER a time for that.


These are people that know me, friends, family, friends of friends, and referrals from all of these people. If I know a guy that is an electrician I will call him before I call a company I have never dealt with before. If he tells me he cant do side work and has to run it through the company he works for, I want him at my house and I don't want the majority of the money going to someone I don't know or trust. I would ask him if he gets any sort of extra bonus for getting the work. That is what happens to me all the time and I have to tell them I dont see any extra "IF" I do the work. They usually tell me I need to grow some balls and get what is owed to me but I remain humble and tell them I am sorry I can't help them. It does get under my skin sometimes knowing all the money that I am passing up.. And yes to go back to the beginning of this post I can't even do work for my family...


----------



## plumbpro

Good points Indie, I especially agree with that last line. I have a repipe this week because it was just repiped by a handy hack that didn't finish the work. They wanted me to come over and fix his lack.:laughing::no:

There were drainage fittings in backwards with pressure fittings all glued in everywhere. PVC cold water line, CPVC hot, nothing hooked up, nothing finished. To top it off, there was not a single vent in the house. I told them that I will not fix that, and that the only option now is a complete repipe. After someone has to pay twice to fix the same problem they learn a hard lesson, if they're smart.


----------



## user2090

falloutman22 said:


> These are people that know me, friends, family, friends of friends, and referrals from all of these people. If I know a guy that is an electrician I will call him before I call a company I have never dealt with before. If he tells me he cant do side work and has to run it through the company he works for, I want him at my house and I don't want the majority of the money going to someone I don't know or trust. I would ask him if he gets any sort of extra bonus for getting the work. That is what happens to me all the time and I have to tell them I dont see any extra "IF" I do the work. They usually tell me I need to grow some balls and get what is owed to me but I remain humble and tell them I am sorry I can't help them. It does get under my skin sometimes knowing all the money that I am passing up.. And yes to go back to the beginning of this post I can't even do work for my family...



If you have that many people offering you work, and are willing to pay you the same amount of money that your company bills outs, then the solution is simple, GO OUT ON YOUR OWN.

The only way for you to get what "YOU DESERVE", is to go it alone. Why else would you do it? 

I agree with you family "GROW SOME BALLS". When you decide to do it keep up informed of how you are doing. I can't wait for you to be several months into it. I will even start a new side jobbers thread just to see how you views change. 

I bet these people you are doing the work for don't own their own businesses, do they?


----------



## Castiron

jjbex said:


> Who looses? Everyone. Legit plumbers are loosing work, which sooner or later will come back to hurt the owners of even the commercial shops. The owners won't be able to pay plumbers what they should be worth, because those same plumbers are lowering the expectations of the public. The sidejobbers are training the public to expect rock bottom rates. It's no wonder there are all kinds of cheapo customers, because the sidejobbers are encouraging them!


I'm sorry but I disagree. Most people that want side jobbers will only use a decent company at the last resort IMO. So if you stop all side jobbing, handy men and DIY crap your phone would ring more. Until then all that'll happen is that less of plumbing employees would do the work and a lot more Handymen.

You won't stop cheapo HO trying to avoid paying a plumber for installing or fixing cheap crap! You can only tap into that when they are doing a major job.

Why people think plumbers are too expensive would be a different topic IMO. I remember reading something a while back that it has more to do with everything else getting cheaper (TV's etc) and plumbing just stayed the same adjusted for inflation.


----------



## falloutman22

Indie said:


> If you have that many people offering you work, and are willing to pay you the same amount of money that your company bills outs, then the solution is simple, GO OUT ON YOUR OWN.
> 
> The only way for you to get what "YOU DESERVE", is to go it alone. Why else would you do it?
> 
> I agree with you family "GROW SOME BALLS". When you decide to do it keep up informed of how you are doing. I can't wait for you to be several months into it. I will even start a new side jobbers thread just to see how you views change.
> 
> I bet these people you are doing the work for don't own their own businesses, do they?


So you are saying it should be okay to do work for my family and make money at it???


----------



## user2090

falloutman22 said:


> So you are saying it should be okay to do work for my family and make money at it???



I'm saying....

Start your own company, and then work for whoever will hire you to do a job.


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## falloutman22

I would love to go out on my own but there are so many damn plumbing companies in this town already that to claim my stake in the madness I would have to sacrifice so much. My boss started with hardly anything and has built quite the company, and to think I would be competing against him would slay my spirit for quite a while. I do make good money with him and have the utmost respect for him, and that is why I dont accept these side job requests. I must remember that if I do go on my own I dont get a two week paid vacation either.... I will be keeping that for now thank you


----------



## Greenguy

I work for a service company our 4 senior techs including the 1 class "A" gas fitter all have there own companies on the side, so when they don't want a task, they go do there own jobs for there personal companies. 

98% of my work is commercial service work as an employee.


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## Jammyrft

Pipe Rat said:


> Hey Jammy are you off work today?


Ha ha no not at all, I've got enough work to keep me going 6 days a week. Between that the wife, dog, gym and all of the rest of my personal life I'm very busy. Thanks for being concerned.


----------



## Jammyrft

You guys are funny


----------



## Epox

Side work,,, hmmm. Yeah I done it some what when I worked for the other guy, few times actually and you know, after recieving our tax bill, I'd do it again. Our end of year tax bill made me sick. And we payed in thousands. Work for tax free money if it came to me, you bet. And every write off I can find or scrape up? Seriously.


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## Redwood

Jammy,

Anytime you want to operate your sidejob business with all the proper licensing, insurance, taxes in full compliance with the laws of your state, go right ahead and you'll have my admiration...

Til you do that you are nothing but a 2 bit hack...

That is undercutting every legitimate plumbing business in your area.

It's that simple....

Do You Want To Step Up To The Plate And Be A Pro?
Or, Keep On Being A Tick Turd.... :whistling2:


----------



## Pipe Rat

Jammyrft said:


> Ha ha no not at all, I've got enough work to keep me going 6 days a week. Between that the wife, dog, gym and all of the rest of my personal life I'm very busy. Thanks for being concerned.


So on top of side jobbing your accessing the zone from your mobile device during working hours while your on the bossmans clock. Busted :laughing::yes: Sorry but my question was not out of concern


----------



## plbgbiz

Castiron said:


> ...I know a guy who was making $13 an hour working for a service guy who billed him out at $140 for the first hour. Now if you were in that guys position and you could make $100 for a Saturday's work you'd see the attraction...


$140 for the first hour? What is their rate for the additional hours? How many actual billable hours does the company collect while he is getting his money all day? What other overhead is having to be paid out? Are other journeymen in that shop being paid more? Does he receive other benefits?

Maybe there should be an attraction to finding out why the employer thinks that wage is appropriate for this employee.

If the company isn't paying a respectable wage for that area, maybe he should see the attraction of a better company to work for. Wages of $20+/- per hour (+ benefits) is what experienced journeymen get paid in many markets.

Or...Maybe he should see the attraction of increasing his value. I am reminded of a quote from Charlie Greer..._"Your raise will become effective when you do."_


----------



## Nikolai

I just read through this entire thread after posting about doing side jobs in the commercial forum. I think some good points were made on both sides, but ultimately the "right" thing to do is get licensed, bonded, ect which I'm working on.

But I have to ask. For all of you guys so strongly apposed to doing side jobs, you're telling me that anytime you needed roofing work, windows replaced, new flooring installed, updated electrical, new trim, ect. you hired a licensed contractor every single time and never had a "buddy" in the trade come help? Not to question anyone's integrity, but I think there's a lot of hypocrisy in this thread.


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## PlumbPowerHouse

We have employees who had done side jobs before. Basically, it can't be work stolen from our company or on company time with company material. It's allowed, but it draws negative attention to yourself from the big wigs.


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## easttexasplumb

A question for all you "side jobbers".

Would you drive your vechicle with no insurance?

If not why take on the role of a contractor without the proper insurance.


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## Hoozycoozy

easttexasplumb said:


> A question for all you "side jobbers".
> 
> Would you drive your vechicle with no insurance?
> 
> If not why take on the role of a contractor without the proper insurance.


A very good point... I understand why people do side work, it's easy money... I don't do side work anymore. People expect it for nothing, just because it is side work. Plus the last side job I did (about two years ago) the guy stiffed me, and I had no recourse for collecting. Also I would freak out about if everything was perfect, bc I don't have insurance, and replacing $10,000 worth of flooring isn't in my budget.

Now, I refer them to my company, and make sure they tell them I referred them. I still do the work, and my boss will probably keep me around longer.


----------



## Hoozycoozy

What about charitable work though? Are you non side job advocates against it too? 

I'm not anti-side work, I don't think negatively about people who do, it's just not a risk I'm willing to take for myself.

A few guys I know only do side work for cash, so there is no proof they did anything if something goes wrong, I don't agree with that. If you're gonna do the work put your name to it and stand behind good or bad.


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## plumb nutz

I've done side work and will probably continue...
Will not do it on company time or in company's backyard unless I get the ok...

I do side work not for the money but to pay the bills, my checks just about cover everything but the 20k we owe the hospital...
Side jobs pay for that...


----------



## easttexasplumb

Hoozycoozy said:


> What about charitable work though? Are you non side job advocates against it too?
> 
> I'm not anti-side work, I don't think negatively about people who do, it's just not a risk I'm willing to take for myself.
> 
> A few guys I know only do side work for cash, so there is no proof they did anything if something goes wrong, I don't agree with that. If you're gonna do the work put your name to it and stand behind good or bad.


 
If you are working for a legit charity, like habitat for humanity or a simular organization. The organization would have insurance of some sort, you would not be liable.

If you mean helping someone who is down and out, it is good to have a kind heart and help them out. If something were to go wrong, they would have no choice but to try to recover from you. 

You install a new faucet for them, a supply line blows apart. There is no one home for many hours the flood ruins thier home and possesions. They have no insurance to pay for the damages, and now most of their stuff has water damage. They do not have the money to do anything, they tell the story to someone. This someone speaks up, well the plumber should have insurance to pay for it. So, of course they call and ask you the insurance information. From this point on it can get a little tricky.

The end.


----------



## plbgbiz

plumb nutz said:


> ...I do side work not for the money but to pay the bills...



:blink:


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## stillaround

plumb nutz said:


> I've done side work and will probably continue...
> Will not do it on company time or in company's backyard unless I get the ok...
> 
> I do side work not for the money but to pay the bills, my checks just about cover everything but the 20k we owe the hospital...
> Side jobs pay for that...


 I knew it, I just knew it...:no: NPR, liberal, sidejobs, excessive reading, all qualities that can get you in trouble........:laughing:, no wonder..its just no wonder...

I'm not going to be suprized by anything you post now....Oh man, ...sidejobs.

My sons sidejobs help the company, help him and takes the edge off...I still do the equivalent of sidejobs...its where I dont charge enough to cover the overhead....on the other hand I dont want to put myself out of business.


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## plumb nutz

You know its funny, always thought that conservative/libertarian/tea party folks were always about less government regulation in their lives....

You know who needs codes or licenses? Let the free market decide...

Oh wait, when its used to protect an industry (aka here, plumbing field) well that's an exception...

Just joking... or am I... maybe its just that were all hypocrites to some degree...

Maybe some more than others..?


----------



## plumb nutz

You know its funny, always thought that conservative/libertarian/tea party folks were always about less government regulation in their lives....

You know who needs codes or licenses? Let the free market decide...

Oh wait, when its used to protect an industry (aka here, plumbing field) well that's an exception...

Just joking... or am I... maybe its just that were all hypocrites to some degree...

Maybe some more than others..?


----------



## Hoozycoozy

easttexasplumb said:


> If you are working for a legit charity, like habitat for humanity or a simular organization. The organization would have insurance of some sort, you would not be liable.
> 
> If you mean helping someone who is down and out, it is good to have a kind heart and help them out. If something were to go wrong, they would have no choice but to try to recover from you.
> 
> You install a new faucet for them, a supply line blows apart. There is no one home for many hours the flood ruins thier home and possesions. They have no insurance to pay for the damages, and now most of their stuff has water damage. They do not have the money to do anything, they tell the story to someone. This someone speaks up, well the plumber should have insurance to pay for it. So, of course they call and ask you the insurance information. From this point on it can get a little tricky.
> 
> The end.


Yes, I am referring to legitimate charitable organizations. And yeah, I don't do work outside anymore for that reason alone. I work hard for what I have and I don't need a lawsuit to destroy it


----------



## stillaround

plumb nutz said:


> You know its funny, always thought that conservative/libertarian/tea party folks were always about less government regulation in their lives....
> 
> You know who needs codes or licenses? Let the free market decide...
> 
> Oh wait, when its used to protect an industry (aka here, plumbing field) well that's an exception...
> 
> Just joking... or am I... maybe its just that were all hypocrites to some degree...
> 
> Maybe some more than others..?


 I thought I wouldnt be suprized..but I am suprized you posted it twice..:yes:..I'm for less government..not sure that means side jobs......anyway, the notion of people getting their heads together to fix something hasnt worked so well...eg:
1. big business oppressing the little guy...then unions and a living wage and safe work environment, then union oppression and businesses out of business and cant compete while the top end parachuttes to big pensions...
2. environmental concerns whacked out of proportion creating a political movement and business takes a hit
3. trying to push religion in government backfires and hypocrisies come to light and sour people on religion far worse than if they had let it alone.....
4. civil rights oppressions now become a money/ hate agenda for political and financial gain...welfare creates dependencies...family is dissolved....oh yeah leave it to the think tank....
And this ties smoothly into sidejobs:laughing:..because so much is screwed up the average guy has to look out for extra income and get it one way or another while being impuned by the "political plumbing powers that be".....so when a bunch of well meaning professionals cant bend the rules for someone who needs extra money to the extent they will risk laws and liabilities to provide for their families ..something isnt right....


----------



## Optimus Primer

I just did a side job for my parents. Fixed a leaking sprinkler pipe.


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## plumb nutz

I figure I had to do something to surprise you... though I'm not sure how I posted twice. Normally the app gets hung up and I have to re send. It will yell at me that its a duplicate post and only show it once. Guess I got lucky and beat the ol'server on that one...

BTW, I do agree with most of what you say, I just see it from a different point of view...


----------



## Widdershins

I think y'all need to lighten up.

If you had enough work to keep your guys busy all the time, then the subject would never come up.


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## Tommy plumber

I work for myself and I still do side jobs...:laughing:


----------



## Redwood

I'm in the middle of a side job for my wife...

Why won't she just call an appliance guy to fix the hot surface igniter on the gas oven....


----------



## Optimus Primer

Redwood said:


> I'm in the middle of a side job for my wife...
> 
> Why won't she just call an appliance guy to fix the hot surface igniter on the gas oven....


Tell her you left your tools in the van. Even though it's parked in your driveway


----------



## stillaround

Redwood said:


> I'm in the middle of a side job for my wife...
> 
> Why won't she just call an appliance guy to fix the hot surface igniter on the gas oven....


 I like that you said your in the middle of it....so now if you dont finish for a while I wont feel intimidated......when it comes to household projects I like to say ," whats the big hurry?"....and my wife has a time climbing over that apathy:laughing:...the daughters arent so easy......1. you should spend an hour a week in the yard, 2. you should lose weight 3. you should exercise..4. you should be more productive 5. you should hang the light fixtures..6. 7. 8..................cant they see I'm waiting for the phone to ring with more calls..


----------



## PlumbersSanJose

IMO the family of my employees should benefit from having a skilled person they know in the trades. I run a don't ask don't tell on family, if they poach jobs they are gone.


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## easttexasplumb

I know everyone is going to do side jobs of some sort. If you can get a few guys to think twice about it great. 

One day some is going to post the thread where they ask advise, because they are being sued over a side job.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

in texas if your not a master and bonded and you do side work they can take your license..... i am a mech. plumber,,, so residental work wouldnt bother my boss but its not worth the risk.... i plumb for family and friends for free.....minor repairs only.... if you dont get paid your not acting as a contractor and it legal....


----------



## Redwood

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> i plumb for family and friends for free.....minor repairs only.... if you dont get paid your not acting as a contractor and it legal....


I take it out of their hide... :laughing:


----------



## RealLivePlumber

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> in texas if your not a master and bonded and you do side work they can take your license..... i am a mech. plumber,,, so residental work wouldnt bother my boss but its not worth the risk.... i plumb for family and friends for free.....minor repairs only.... if you dont get paid your not acting as a contractor and it legal....





:no:


----------



## plumber666

My usual response if asked to do side work is, "Are you in my photo album?............then, no."

Our outfit does big commercial work, so doing side jobs doesn't amount to competition for our employer. The odd reno or hot water heater is enough for me, but I rarely set a price or a T&M rate. Usually I ask what they want to pay. More often than not I end up saying that's too much, and knock a few bucks off that.

I find the guys that do side work because they NEED the money are the ones that cause problems. If you're living beyond your means and do it cause you have to, chances are you're cutting corners and doing slipshod work.


----------



## 1703

plumber666 said:


> Our outfit does big commercial work, so doing side jobs doesn't amount to competition for our employer.



Maybe not, but now you're my competition. 

This is not my trade or your trade. This is OUR trade. We gotta stop putting the screws to each other.


----------



## 504Plumber

Colgar said:


> Maybe not, but now you're my competition.
> 
> This is not my trade or your trade. This is OUR trade. We gotta stop putting the screws to each other.


So then how do you stop the hacks with licenses and insurance from under bidding everyone?


----------



## 1703

504Plumber said:


> So then how do you stop the hacks with licenses and insurance from under bidding everyone?


Totally different issue, IMO.


----------



## 504Plumber

Colgar said:


> Totally different issue, IMO.


Not by your statement, everyday "legitimate" plumbing shops are putting the screws to other plumbers.


----------



## Widdershins

Colgar said:


> Maybe not, but now you're my competition.
> 
> This is not my trade or your trade. This is OUR trade. We gotta stop putting the screws to each other.


 My experience with most folks seeking to have Plumbing work done under the table is that they will never pay full price, no matter what. They're going to keep looking for the lowest price until they find it.

So I don't view it as lost work.

Some folks are just cheap arsed S.O.B.'S.


----------



## 1703

504Plumber said:


> Not by your statement, everyday "legitimate" plumbing shops are putting the screws to other plumbers.


Absolutely! I agree! 

But they are still different issues, IMO.


----------



## 1703

Widdershins said:


> My experience with most folks seeking to have Plumbing work done under the table is that they will never pay full price, no matter what. They're going to keep looking for the lowest price until they find it.
> 
> So I don't view it as lost work.
> 
> Some folks are just cheap arsed S.O.B.'S.


I understand that. But it is still competition in my eyes.

Side work in our trade will never go away as long as there are those people out there. 

I guess what I have a hard time swallowing is the whole "I'm not taking work from my boss so its all good" mentality.


----------



## Widdershins

Colgar said:


> I understand that. But it is still competition in my eyes.


 How is it competition if you never had a snowballs chance in Hades of ever getting the job?



> Side work in our trade will never go away as long as there are those people out there.


 This is true. The 'Something for Nothing' mindset has always been with us, and it always will be.



> I guess what I have a hard time swallowing is the whole "I'm not taking work from my boss so its all good" mentality.


 If I never stood a chance of getting the work in the first place, then how is the work being taken from me?

I do understand the frustration -- I've seen some really promising jobs pass me by because I wasn't willing to do it for $50.00 an hour or less.

Bear in mind that permitting rules in my State have shaped my attitude over the years -- Homeowners are allowed to pull Plumbing permits in my State, which to me is a far more egregious give-away to the Trade than my guys doing a few repipes on 1 bath ramblers for chump change.


----------



## shakeyglenn68

Widdershins said:


> Because:
> 
> A) I don't need him -- A low dollar Apprentice would be helpful, but a high dollar Journeyman just isn't in the cards.
> 
> B) Professional Courtesy.
> 
> C) I can see both sides of the story.
> 
> Seriously, though -- What would you do?


I would talk to the ****ty golfer first, if no dice then I would talk to the Journeyman see if he would accept a little less than what He is worth. 
I know my value as a service plumber, Not many guys do, I also know in a ***thole of an economy that we have at the moment my value needs to come down some.

I worked for a Zero Tolerance company before I liked it very much, all jobs tossed to the bosses from me made their day, and it helped the Company out! You have to look at it from a different point of view when its a ZT Company. Your not looking out for yourself, your looking out for your fellow employees. Keeping those guys work to do as well.

I had given him close to 500 jobs, some small beans others multi million dollars. (All the service HVAC/R & Plumbing for a lady that owned 400 rental properties in OKC)


----------



## bigdaddyrob

Tommy plumber said:


> I work for myself and I still do side jobs...:laughing:


Lol that's how I kept feeling reading this lol


----------



## Richard Hilliard

We understand many do not like thier employees working on plumbing side jobs. What are your feelings with employees doing side work that is outside of the plumbing trade?

I know a plumbing owner upset with one of his plumbers for starting a company making access panels without telling or offering a shot to him.


----------



## Redwood

Interesting subject... And like a bad penny it keeps coming back... :whistling2:

As an employee I don't do side work as I consider it to be the same thing as stealing from my employer... :yes:

Never mind the fact that I'm not set up as a proper on the books business with appropriate business licenses, tax accounts, liability insurance and all the other things businesses have in place to operate properly and protect the consumer...

When I get done working at the end of the day or, on the weekend the last thing I want to do is more plumbing work...

Even Family find it discouraging to try to get me to do something.... 
Ask my wife! :laughing:

Anything I do "On The Side" for extra cash is not related in any way to my day job....

I'l keep it that way Thanks! :yes:


----------



## bartnc37

Richard Hilliard said:


> We understand many do not like thier employees working on plumbing side jobs. What are your feelings with employees doing side work that is outside of the plumbing trade?
> 
> I know a plumbing owner upset with one of his plumbers for starting a company making access panels without telling or offering a shot to him.


The only way I could see it being any of the owners concern is if the employee was hawking his panels on jobs he was doing for his employer or handling side business calls on the clock.


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## jeffreyplumber

I dont think any employer wants his worker doing side jobs. Or even to have a second job in an entirely differant field. Why would you want your help for instance delivering news papers at 3 in the morning? Why would you want your best plumber going out and getting an education to say be a lawyer or accountant? No ! I want my help cheap and dont want them to find a way to make more money away from me otherwise they will quit, and find a better way to feed and clothe their family. And I certainly dont want competition for work.


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## Redwood

Richard Hilliard said:


> What are your feelings with employees doing side work that is outside of the plumbing trade?
> 
> I know a plumbing owner upset with one of his plumbers for starting a company making access panels without telling or offering a shot to him.


Well...

Does his company handle the wall repairs after doing inside the walls plumbing work? :whistling2:

Selling the access panel work on the job may establish an unwanted relationship between the 2 companies...

My boss is very concerned about us endorsing any services outside of what our company offers without it being an established subcontractor for us. I can live with that...


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## user2090

It really doesn't matter what is said, people will not change their minds. It comes down to two paths a side-jobber can take.

One, he/she becomes a business owner, and learns the real cost of doing business, and how damaging it is to the "Industry". Then they can revisit this thread, and give an educated opinion.

Two, they continue to be a douchebag, and only think of themselves, and look out for number one, and in return screw the "Industry" and owners that invested in their education, which without they would not be able to do what they are doing. 

Does that sum it up?


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## Richard Hilliard

They are manufacturing the access panels to sell to wholesalers and retail shops like hardwares.

Redwood you make a valid point unless he sold them to the plumbing company to install.

So if it was Mona Vie forgive or amway it would still be wrong? Pretend he or she was not selling it to your company's customers. I would hope he or she would be smarter than that but you never know.

Personally I do not see it as a problem as long as it is not in direct competition or affects the company.


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## Hoozycoozy

jeffreyplumber said:


> I dont think any employer wants his worker doing side jobs. Or even to have a second job in an entirely differant field. Why would you want your help for instance delivering news papers at 3 in the morning? Why would you want your best plumber going out and getting an education to say be a lawyer or accountant? No ! <b>I want my help cheap<\b> and dont want them to find a way to make more money away from me otherwise they will quit, and find a better way to feed and clothe their family. And I certainly dont want competition for work.


Good help isn't cheap and cheap help isn't good... I'd never work for someone who values my time as "cheap" and
doesn't want me to better myself or my families situation. In other words, I'm
glad I don't work for someone like you.


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## plumb nutz

Hoozycoozy said:


> Good help isn't cheap and cheap help isn't good... I'd never work for someone who values my time as "cheap" and
> doesn't want me to better myself or my families situation. In other words, I'm
> glad I don't work for someone like you.


I think it was sarcasm..?
Surely he wasn't serious...


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## bartnc37

Pretty sure he was being sarcastic but I used to work for a guy with the same attitude. He loved it when an employee bought a new truck or something else big ticket. His theory was if a guy had a big truck or boat payment he could make them work tons of hours and any manner of s#%t job and the employee would have to do it because of his new financial obligations. 
This was the same guy that when the time of the year came for raises he would start riding the employees like rented mules , just tearing guys apart at every opportunity so they would think they were about to be canned and be afraid to ask about a raise. 
As far as a prior assertion that side jobbers are the biggest threat to the industry how about the "legitimate business owners" running 18 and 19 yr old guys around with no license and at best a basic knowledge of plumbing. They can send the guy back to a job 2 or 3 times at ten bucks an hour and still be money ahead of a trained journeyman at 30. It looks horrible from a h.o. point of view when the guy is on the phone every ten minutes asking how how to do the most menial tasks when they're getting charged $100 an hr for the services of a professional plumber.
I'd like to think when a h.o. hires a guy on the side they realize it is what it is. They're hedging their bets that nothing will go wrong in exchange for paying less money. When a legitimate company sends in some kid or worse some middle aged flunky out to a job with no idea what they are doing while charging for and representing them as a trained and qualified individual that shines a far worse light on the "industry" than a guy changing a faucet or w.h. on the side for a few extra bucks.


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## Richard Hilliard

plumb nutz said:


> I think it was sarcasm..?
> Surely he wasn't serious...


I am with you. I thought it was funny and sarcastic. Loved it.


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## Hoozycoozy

Richard Hilliard said:


> I am with you. I thought it was funny and sarcastic. Loved it.


If it was indeed sarcasm. I apologize. But
I do know of companies like that.


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## Richard Hilliard

Hoozycoozy said:


> If it was indeed sarcasm. I apologize. But
> I do know of companies like that.


 

Exactly and that is why it was funny


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## DesertOkie

I know this horse has been beat but let me ask you owners this. How would you feel about a journeyman doing side work if you we not able to give him/her 40 hours a week or even close, going on the assumption that the pay is hourly. 

I believe that any job that comes through the company is theirs. They pay for ads, they have paid for their reputation ect. But is there a point when the workers is part time?

All that being said I am kinda old school, when I hired in the boss told me no side work. I agreed to that when I started. 

The distribution of work is skewed here, the dispatcher has her favorites(the guy owes her $), and the other is a kiss a**. So two of us get whatever they don't want. The issue was raised(not by me) and supposedly rectified. But when the boss isn't looking it's the same old song and dance. 

After the first major slap in the face. I waited in the office an hour + for her fav to call and say what jobs he wanted so I could get the other. I took my contractors and passed. After another episode I bought a van, then machines. Tomorrow my bond and insurance will go to the Construction board to activate my lic. 

My second question. If I have lic, bond,& insur, van, machines, & tools. And I work in a different town where I live and get jobs by my own sweat is that side work?


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

DesertOkie said:


> I know this horse has been beat but let me ask you owners this. How would you feel about a journeyman doing side work if you we not able to give him/her 40 hours a week or even close, going on the assumption that the pay is hourly.
> 
> I believe that any job that comes through the company is theirs. They pay for ads, they have paid for their reputation ect. But is there a point when the workers is part time?
> 
> All that being said I am kinda old school, when I hired in the boss told me no side work. I agreed to that when I started.
> 
> The distribution of work is skewed here, the dispatcher has her favorites(the guy owes her $), and the other is a kiss a**. So two of us get whatever they don't want. The issue was raised(not by me) and supposedly rectified. But when the boss isn't looking it's the same old song and dance.
> 
> After the first major slap in the face. I waited in the office an hour + for her fav to call and say what jobs he wanted so I could get the other. I took my contractors and passed. After another episode I bought a van, then machines. Tomorrow my bond and insurance will go to the Construction board to activate my lic.
> 
> My second question. If I have lic, bond,& insur, van, machines, & tools. And I work in a different town where I live and get jobs by my own sweat is that side work?


No but I think you need to talk to your boss, not about sidejobing but about the unfair work conditions. As an owner I doubt he wants his calls dispatched that way.


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## Dun' Right

Holy hell, I just read 25 pages about side work, at 3:00am. 

Oh the joys of being a plumber. 

I have done side work. The plumber who taught me everything I know encouraged it, with the following condition....I charge the same rates that he charged, and I didn't take any of his customers. He even let me use his sewer machines to unclog a drain every now and then (before I bought my own). 

Why did he do this? Because I was a valuable asset to the company. Could the company of survived without me? YES I'm not saying my **** didn't stink or anything. I brought hundreds of thousands of dollars to his company through advertising, mailers, and door knocking. I worked off the clock designing his website, stocking his truck, cleaning his shop, doing whatever needed to be done. I put way more into his company than I got out of it, and it was his way of paying me back for my time. 

Side work has given me the customer base that still use me every time they need plumbing work. Since I charged the same rates at my former employer, there was no price shock to my customers when I started on my own. 

I'm still great friends with my former employer. When I get swamped with work, I kick work back to him, and he does likewise to me. 

Never burn any bridges, you never know when you'll have to walk back across them. 

I can understand both sides of the "side job" argument. We're all in this thing together. Sometimes helping your employee's out, or helping your employer out can really pay off in the long run.


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## Phat Cat

> Dun' Right said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have done side work. The plumber who taught me everything I know encouraged it, with the following condition....I charge the same rates that he charged, and I didn't take any of his customers.
> 
> 
> 
> Ahhhh, good intentions. However, I don't think your boss did the overall industry any favors. I'm assuming you were uninsured and didn't have workman's comp. for side work. IMO, you just proved to another group of H.O.'s that having insurance/wc is not important. So, if they can save $50.00 next time, why pay you the same amount? Slippery slope.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why did he do this? Because I was a valuable asset to the company.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My opinion only. You should have been richly compensated being a valuable asset. No way in hell would I want my valuable asset have to work side jobs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I brought hundreds of thousands of dollars to his company through advertising, mailers, and door knocking. I worked off the clock designing his website, stocking his truck, cleaning his shop, doing whatever needed to be done. I put way more into his company than I got out of it, and it was his way of paying me back for my time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You do realize the above is very rare. Wondering, during slow times, did he pay you salary? Were you guaranteed 40 hours? Sometimes employees overlook what the employer has invested in them.
> 
> Believe me, I am not picking on you personally. It is more of an admonishment to business owners and further food for thought.
Click to expand...


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## Dun' Right

Phat Cat said:


> Ahhhh, good intentions. However, I don't think your boss did the overall industry any favors. I'm assuming you were uninsured and didn't have workman's comp. for side work. IMO, you just proved to another group of H.O.'s that having insurance/wc is not important. So, if they can save $50.00 next time, why pay you the same amount? Slippery slope.
> 
> Actually, he gave me the "insurance talk" when I first started doing some side jobs, and I've carried a 1 mil liability policy ever since.
> 
> 
> My opinion only. You should have been richly compensated being a valuable asset. No way in hell would I want my valuable asset have to work side jobs.
> 
> I agree. I was paid well for the actual plumbing work I did. It was a small family owned company, and I think he wanted to show me more how to run my own company, since I had already climbed the chain as far as I could in his company. I am the same age as his son, guess who's going to take over? Not me. lol
> 
> 
> You do realize the above is very rare. Wondering, during slow times, did he pay you salary? Were you guaranteed 40 hours? Sometimes employees overlook what the employer has invested in them.
> 
> No salary. Just hourly. Never guaranteed 40 hours, and when the work got slow we didn't make anything. (hence why I would advertise, mail flyers, and knock on doors on my own time for him) Why didn't I just do it for myself? Because I owed that to him for giving me the opportunity and knowledge to own/run a plumbing company.
> 
> Believe me, I am not picking on you personally. It is more of an admonishment to business owners and further food for thought.
> 
> 
> 
> No offense taken
Click to expand...


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## DesertOkie

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> No but I think you need to talk to your boss, not about sidejobing but about the unfair work conditions. As an owner I doubt he wants his calls dispatched that way.


He has talked to her about it lots. The problem is his personality is so abrasive she is the only one that will put up with him. She is an accountant so she does the tax stuff too. 

I'm not one to cry about unfairness. I would rather be in the position to leave before I say anything. That might seem unfair to him but the guy treats his people who are stuck there (living paycheck to paycheck) like sh*t. Lots of verbal and mental abuse. I grew up with a-hole bosses so I'm ok with it, water off a duck A**, but you take my $ it's time to leave.

I was just wondering what the bosses thought of the situation.


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