# Clay pipe issue old timers or experienced guys chime in



## ARMYPLUMBER (Jan 24, 2012)

Ok The house i am working in is WW2 times and the drainage bellow the slab is red clay.

I have to redo the section behind the main stack due to not being done properly IE floor drain with no Ptrap and a piece of pipe cemented into a piece of cast iron that is cemented into the clay pipe.

Now the problem i have is the main is cast iron draining into a clay 4x4x4 Y there is a clay 4x4x4 Y that is broken in the female side of the first Y. I took it out so now im left with a 4x4x4 that the main is draining into the Y that is on its back.

Now i need so adapt ABS into this 4" female hub of the Y. Removing the Y is not realy and option as the furnace is beside it.

My idea was to take a small piece of 4" flay straight pipe and cement it in via quick set cement or if i can find fondu cement i will use that.

What other ideas do you guys have ? I seen a dual tite donut but cant find any more info on sizes for clay pipe.











As you can see on the right there is a clean out and that is the main run to the city. The furnace is to the right also and moving the furnace is not a option. The silver steel box was the floor dain i have no clue how they considered that a floor drain as it was a steel box connected right to the main sewer line with no trap once so ever.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

See the "Go back one page" button on your screen? Hit that button and never come back to the Plumbing Zone.:thumbsup:


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## ARMYPLUMBER (Jan 24, 2012)

Why


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/why-post-intro-11368/


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## ARMYPLUMBER (Jan 24, 2012)

Oh i forgot to post a intro ?


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

ARMYPLUMBER said:


> Why


Are you a plumber ?


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## ARMYPLUMBER (Jan 24, 2012)

Yes i am a red seal plumber.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

ARMYPLUMBER said:


> Yes i am a red seal plumber.


Great !
Post an intro and you will be welcomed with open arms.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Call a drain layer, he will make a proper transition for you.


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## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

Fernco and Mission make Clay X PVC bands, not a big deal


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

Rando said:


> Fernco and Mission make Clay X PVC bands, not a big deal


He's talking about piping into a clay hub I think... 

Pictures would help, but by your description, I would be expanding this job, and removing a furnace.


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

They make a clay by plastic donut but they usually don't fit too tight...


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

I have been known to use a few rags shove pipe into clay pipe pack rags around pipe cement in then brush tar over cement didthat once or twice maybe


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## ARMYPLUMBER (Jan 24, 2012)

Yes i need to put the pipe into the Hub. 

One of my plumbing buddies sugested i put a small 6" long piece of clay pipe and quikset cement around it then tar around it. then use a fernco for clay to abs. kind of what revenge said


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Get a Fernco large enough to fit the o.d. of the hub. Concrete the hub in using non-shrink grout then attach the Fernco.


Extra insurance - pour some Quikcrete around the Outside of the Fernco for stability.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Why can't you cut the hub off? If possible I would do that, then tie on with a fernco. If not, I would make a joint similar to what revenge said.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Thanks for the intro, Army :thumbsup:

The donut for hub transition from clay to IPS works good if you can find it, but they are getting very scarce these days.

As others have said the fernco (CT) that is clay x IPS is easier to find. Just cut the hub off and remember to pour concrete around the CT connection to stabilize it and you're good to go.

Be careful not to leave a rubber seam between the clay and the ABS or some plumber (possibly you) will hate you down the road when he rods it and gets his retriever head snagged in the CT


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

This is before I was a plumber but it worked. Kinda like revenge said, except I wraped duct tape around end of PVC pipe so that the inverts would be even when inserted into hub of clay. Then cemented that joint. It was the main sewer at property line, I know it was good for at least 10 years.

Whatever you do just make sure the soil under is compacted well, and then use gravel or really make sure dirt is compacted well around pipe. If the pipe never ever moves a hair the odds of it ever having a problem is almost zero with a good tie in.


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## ARMYPLUMBER (Jan 24, 2012)

Hey guys the reason I can't cut the hub off is cause it's part of the Y. If you look in the pic there is a y on its side and it is broken. It is in the y on its back and the main stack is draining into it. I'm gonna see if I can find a fern onto go over the whole hub then cement around it or I will I guess put in a small piece of clay and cement that into the hub of the Y and French onto that stub/nipple. Does that make sense ?


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

ARMYPLUMBER said:


> Hey guys the reason I can't cut the hub off is cause it's part of the Y. If you look in the pic there is a y on its side and it is broken. It is in the y on its back and the main stack is draining into it. I'm gonna see if I can find a fern onto go over the whole hub then cement around it or I will I guess put in a small piece of clay and cement that into the hub of the Y and French onto that stub/nipple. Does that make sense ?


That donut piece looks kind of expensive . Because you have what looks like to me 80 percent of the floor open I would suggest talking the owner into replacing all of that dinosaur looking drainage. Possibly even go as far as installing a functional p trap to save them from the possibility of tens of thousands of dollars in damage when one of their galvanized water fittings blows


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

ARMYPLUMBER said:


> Hey guys the reason I can't cut the hub off is cause it's part of the Y. If you look in the pic there is a y on its side and it is broken. It is in the y on its back and the main stack is draining into it. I'm gonna see if I can find a fern onto go over the whole hub then cement around it or I will I guess put in a small piece of clay and cement that into the hub of the Y and French onto that stub/nipple. Does that make sense ?


Yeah what biz said. Of course it makes sense.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

ARMYPLUMBER said:


> Hey guys the reason I can't cut the hub off is cause it's part of the Y. If you look in the pic there is a y on its side and it is broken. It is in the y on its back and the main stack is draining into it. I'm gonna see if I can find a fern onto go over the whole hub then cement around it or I will I guess put in a small piece of clay and cement that into the hub of the Y and French onto that stub/nipple. Does that make sense ?


The fragile condition of the fitting is why I suggested non-shrink grout in the hub AND concrete around the outside of the Fernco.

Also, if the hub is cracked, be sure to let the inside grout setup before tightening the Fernco or the whole thing might fall in on itself.

I sure hope you and the customer are weighing the future implications of leaving that clay under the slab. This problem is not over by any stretch.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

If the rest of the joints are good, clay pipe is far superior to anything else.


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## macp&h (Oct 20, 2008)

Stick a piece of abs pipe in the hub, use oakum in the joint, then use plastic seal to finish it off.


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## antiCon (Jun 15, 2012)

cut the hub out.. only way i would do it..


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

antiCon said:


> cut the hub out.. only way i would do it..


That is best unless there is not enough room after the cut to get a solid connection. There is precious little room beyond the hub to work with.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

The reason I suggested a drain layer, is they will do the job without fernco, donuts. 

Glue on to your abs a hub adapter,
put the abs hub adapter into the hub of the clay pipe.
Use brown oakem only (white oakem expands and will crack the hub) pack in one rope of oakem dry,
get the rest of the ropes filed with wet cement and pack in till there is about an inch left to the end of the hub,
now fill the rest of the space with cement mixed to the consistency of putty.
Wait till the cement starts to stiffen then repack it with a block of wood.
If you followed the above instructions, you have made a proper joint that will last for many years to come.


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## ARMYPLUMBER (Jan 24, 2012)

thanks sewerratz this is exactly what i am going to do. I would sugest replacing all the pipes but the homeowner does not have the money for this. 

This job was orignaly just to install a drain for a wash machine then to find out its not done properly and there is no p trap on the floor drain. 

Thanks everyone for the replies. I did check on the donuts and it being a US product i am looking at 2 weeks time before i get it.

Thanks alot for the help guys.


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## ARMYPLUMBER (Jan 24, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> That is best unless there is not enough room after the cut to get a solid connection. There is precious little room beyond the hub to work with.


Thats what i am working with but there is no room to cut off the hub the hub touches the other side right away. To bad you cant glue a piece of clay onto clay lol.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

SewerRatz said:


> The reason I suggested a drain layer, is they will do the job without fernco, donuts.
> 
> Glue on to your abs a hub adapter,
> put the abs hub adapter into the hub of the clay pipe.
> ...


A sound way to do it on a repair of course. Have you tried to get a tapping saddle that can epoxy/clamp to the clay then grind the wye portion off set the saddle then concrete around it to stabilize. 

Saddle link>>http://www.fernco.com/plumbing/flexible-couplings/flexible-tap-saddles


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Saddles are against Illinois code


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> Saddles are against Illinois code


IPC as well.


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## antiCon (Jun 15, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> That is best unless there is not enough room after the cut to get a solid connection. There is precious little room beyond the hub to work with.


Lol I agree I meant to say wye ( since the horizontal trunk line was exposed but y'all were talking about Hubs my bad..


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

SewerRatz said:


> Saddles are against Illinois code


Yes I am aware, so is clay within the foundation, so should he rip it all out and put in approved piping?

As a repair and an inspector, I would rather see an epoxied saddle over clay than a concrete joint which will not bond to the pipe, or rip it out.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> IPC as well.


The Fernco's you were talking about in a previous post is not code approved within the foundation as well in Illinois. No hubs & adapters yes.

I didn't even bother with looking at the IPC, to stave off confusion, does it allow Clay within the foundation.

If not we are straining at Nat's and swallowing camels for repairs in a hopeless situation.

Tear it all out,,,


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

GAN said:


> The Fernco's you were talking about in a previous post is not code approved within the foundation as well in Illinois. No hubs & adapters yes.
> 
> I didn't even bother with looking at the IPC, to stave off confusion, does it allow Clay within the foundation.
> 
> ...


Elastomeric fittings (Fernco, Mission, etc...) are approved in the IPC and have all the ASME and ASTM numbers to boot. Clay pipe on the other hand is not approved for building drains and I doubt it ever was by anybody's code. 

Obviously the clay needs to go but for some reason the furnace is more important so the clay must remain.

Remain until a later date when it fails completely. Sounds like it is in the "pay me now or pay me later" category.

It looks very shallow. Can you not tunnel under? What makes the furnace untouchable? Some sacred burial ground?


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

GAN said:


> Yes I am aware, so is clay within the foundation, so should he rip it all out and put in approved piping?
> 
> As a repair and an inspector, I would rather see an epoxied saddle over clay than a concrete joint which will not bond to the pipe, or rip it out.


I can show you 10000s of homes in Chicago, Cook, DuPage, Kane, Will, and Lake counties with clay tile used as building drain material, and all of them have cement joints. I can also show you even more with clay tile as building sewer with cement joints and the joints are still holding till this day.

I have a customer that has a house built in the 1800s with clay under the house, and outside for a total of a 200' run. The property has enough trees on it to be classified as a forest. Not a single broken pipe or tree root in the line. The only time I had to rod the line was when a skunk got in and died.

These clay pipes just had a smooth spigot end that the oakem and cement did their job due to being properly installed. I have done many repairs on clay pipe in Chicago with more clay pipe and cement and guess what, it passed inspection and still is holding up.

The hub adpater that is used to transition from pvc to cast iron base a large raised edge that the oakem will hold in place. The cement will hold the oakem in place and if he slings the pipe properly, it will be a joint that will never see a problem.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Also I rather do something that once was allowed, than do something that has never been allowed.

I have code books that date back to the early 1900s and they even said saddle fittings were not allowed.

Yes tearing out all the clay under the home would be the right way, but even the Illinois code has a provision that if updating the system would cause undo hardship, that you can leave the existing system as long and changes meets the current code. A saddle would not meet not meet the past or current code.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Have installed many a Cantex, Logan and field tile clay sewers (septic tanks), have ripped out many of the same with root inclusion through said joints as well as concrete joints as well as orangeburg (fiber conduit) was glad when our jurisdiction started allowing SDR 35 for shallow applications. Also wiped, poured and poured inverted joints. SO what. Yes raised bead adapters have been around for quite some time, nothing new. 
You will find most of the rest of the State is separate from the Country of Cook County, not sure about the soil differences in the regions, but down here I can show you as many as you tout that have issues.

Outside of the foundation (which is not in the jurisdiction of the PLBG. code) saddles have been approved in most jurisdictions since the dawn of time or hand tapped clay which I am sure both you and I have done. 

I will have and always will doubt a concrete joint on a clay application (will hold better if the pipe is beaded) and outside the foundation will always use a saddle type adapter, just silly not to then encase in concrete for stability (once coated and protected). There are reasons materials change and most of the time for the better, do you still wipe lead, run galvanized for DWV, etc by choice. Hope not.

In this case on a repair Illinois approved or not (Il are not code gods they are so far behind it is not funny) I would not hesitate to give someone trouble over this, way to many more important issues to address, like getting up speed in the State, over a minor repair to save a consumer a ton, or install an inferior joint on a damaged hub.

Code's we don't need no stinking codes.

058-106725, CCDI 396


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