# Missed a Spot?



## WaterBoy (Mar 4, 2010)

*Job Summary* 
Last night I installed a 66 gal. electric w/h. Removed the old tank. Rerouted the pipes to make the job look nicer. Installed ball valve and installed dielectric unions on the new tank. 

*Prep.*
Tank is set. Took my measurements. Cleaned fittings and pipes. Fitted the pipes and 90s togther. Solder at the dielectric unions first then to the last fitting. Job completed after cleaning and etc. Job looked very nice:thumbup:
No leaks, solder took around the fittings. 

About and hour later, the h/o called and notice a small leak coming from a fitting of mine.  I went back to fix my problem. The leak was coming from the cold side dielectric union. I had no cold sweats and there was no water in the pipes. 

When I go to clean my fittings and pipe, I make them very shiny where the solder will be going. I will also use new cloth frequently. So maybe I missed a spot on the union. 

*Any ideas on why it would start leaking?* I was sure the solder was around all my fittings. It looked like I never hit that spot with solder or it looked like it split open. 

Thank you fellas.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Bad flux if it leaked from copper to brass on the dielectric.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Apparently you didn't pull the solder all the way around. Stop wasting all that sand cloth, that stuff cost money.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*use tinning flux...like Oaty*

get the Oaty tinning flux then you dont have to go 
back out after supper and fix those kind of leaks..


you do realize its a skill that cannot be taught....

to solder a joint just good enough for it to last half a day
and it only starts to leak when you have sat down to supper that night.....

a time released leak....:laughing::laughing:.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

More than likely you did not apply enough heat all around the fitting equally


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

If it was lead free brass you may have used too much heat


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

stir your flux. mix it all up. But I agree. Sounds like you didnt let it flow all the way around.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

actually after rereading its a wonder why every thing didnt leak. you didnt apply any flux. you said you cleaned all pipe and fittings the you fit everything together. you just missed your flux time.


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## plumber666 (Sep 19, 2010)

Have you soldered much before?


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

change your name from waterboy to fluxboy. You probably jinxed yourself with that name


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

How did you repair the leak? If you just heated it up again and pumped more solder in, bad move. If you pulled the fitting off, you should have seen where the problem was. 

I'm guessing you burnt off the flux in one area and didn't get full coverage with the solder.





Paul


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

3rd year apprentice and you don't know about using flux?
Installing a water heater without direct supervision?

:whistling2::no:


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## WaterBoy (Mar 4, 2010)

house plumber said:


> actually after rereading its a wonder why every thing didnt leak. you didnt apply any flux. you said you cleaned all pipe and fittings the you fit everything together. you just missed your flux time.


I did flux all the fittings and pipes. It was only the dielectric union that leaked. Everything else was working.


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## WaterBoy (Mar 4, 2010)

plumber666 said:


> Have you soldered much before?


Ya. The guy I am with now actually taught me how to solder properly. I have installed about 15 w/h already by myself. All of them by soldering copper for the water lines.


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## WaterBoy (Mar 4, 2010)

rocksteady said:


> How did you repair the leak? If you just heated it up again and pumped more solder in, bad move. If you pulled the fitting off, you should have seen where the problem was.
> 
> I'm guessing you burnt off the flux in one area and didn't get full coverage with the solder.
> 
> ...


To repair it, I put a new dielectric on and coupling onto the pipe.


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## WaterBoy (Mar 4, 2010)

Redwood said:


> 3rd year apprentice and you don't know about using flux?
> Installing a water heater without direct supervision?
> 
> :whistling2::no:


I understand the process and the purpose of using flux. 

I have been installing these water heaters by myself. My boss was with me for about the first five of them to teach me how to set a w/h. 

With direct supervision, I do a lot of jobs without the supervision still.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Heat up the old dielectric union and pull the piece of copper out. You should be able to see what happened on the pipe and fitting.







Paul


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

WaterBoy said:


> ...I do a lot of jobs without the supervision still...


I'll spare you the self-righteous "you ought not do that speech" on one condition...You do know that you ought not do that, right?


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## WaterBoy (Mar 4, 2010)

rocksteady said:


> Heat up the old dielectric union and pull the piece of copper out. You should be able to see what happened on the pipe and fitting.
> 
> I will do that when I get time this weekend. thank you.
> 
> ...





plbgbiz said:


> I'll spare you the self-righteous "you ought not do that speech" on one condition...You do know that you ought not do that, right?


I would love to have the supervision but they send me out to perform the work. I know the law states an "apprentice is suppose to have direct supervision."


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Soldiering is not major feat, but is an art nontheless. In summary what the guys have said here are to make sure fittings/pipe are clean, even a faint oily spot can cause the soldier not to take. Good clean flux and soldier. Absolutely no water happening, but one thing I was taught by someone I still have a lot of respect for was that he soldiered by holding the flame in one area and letting the soldier run around the joint. I learned the hard way to pass the flame around the joint in at least 2 opposing sides, even more if area allows. But remember too much heat can burn the flux out.  It happens to all of us from time to time so join the club. Thing is it has to be the exception not the rule.:thumbsup:


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

WaterBoy said:


> I did flux all the fittings and pipes. It was only the dielectric union that leaked. Everything else was working.


I was kiddiing about that part. We had a guy that would say "green means go". Meaning when the flame turned green start applying solder. I said by time it turns green you just burnt all the flux off.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

WaterBoy said:


> I would love to have the supervision but they send me out to perform the work. I know the law states an "apprentice is suppose to have direct supervision."


Who do you think will have their butt in the sling...:whistling2:

http://www.ct.gov/dcp/cwp/view.asp?A=3618&Q=450806


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*dont beat your self up over it......*



WaterBoy said:


> I would love to have the supervision but they send me out to perform the work. I know the law states an "apprentice is suppose to have direct supervision."


Dont let all these a-holes bust your chops about this.
I was out at 18 doing stuff by myself.....

I dont think you should beat yourself up over this...
its only a water heater, and as long as you did not
flood the place out or cause any major damage,,, 

its no harm, no foul.....

we always install ours in a pan , 
with no exceptions unless its right by the sump pump........

we never use those silly dialectric unions either...
female x female flex connectors only for me..

installed 3 heaters today, 
1 sump pump and one hose bib

no leaks, drips or errors...


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

WaterBoy said:


> I would love to have the supervision but they send me out to perform the work. I know the law states an "apprentice is suppose to have direct supervision."


Contact by cell phone I guess would be considered direct supervision


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

don't beat yourself up in my state u can get your residential and commercial license after two years. 1/2 and 2/4 fittings usually go fairly well without spreading heat to much, but its always good to heat evenly all around as much as possible especially on the unions as they are brass.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Capillary action my son, capillary action.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

bechplumber said:


> don't beat yourself up in my state u can get your residential and commercial license after two years. 1/2 and 2/4 fittings usually go fairly well without spreading heat to much, but its always good to heat evenly all around as much as possible especially on the unions as they are brass.


1/2 doesn't give me many problems.

That pesky 2/4 on the other hand.....:whistling2:


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

Colgar said:


> 1/2 doesn't give me many problems.
> 
> That pesky 2/4 on the other hand.....:whistling2:


I use 1/2 and 2/4 interchangeably.:blink:


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

plumbpro said:


> I use 1/2 and 2/4 interchangeably.:blink:


 Code says you must use proper transition fittings when going from 1/2 to 2/4.

Its called a coup.....cuop.....cup.....cop.... I'm drawing a blank.....


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

....


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Im fine with them all sept those darn 2/4's give me stress:huh:


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Colgar said:


> Code says you must use proper transition fittings when going from 1/2 to 2/4.
> 
> Its called a coup.....cuop.....cup.....cop.... I'm drawing a blank.....


Come on you can say it. Sharkbite.

Is 2/4's the same as 4/8's?


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Not quite. It's closer to 3/6.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

The 5/10's are a mutha...:yes:


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> Dont let all these a-holes bust your chops about this.
> I was out at 18 doing stuff by myself.....
> 
> I dont think you should beat yourself up over this...
> ...


 The rim of a sump has to be 1" above the finished floor here. Or you have to have a watertight cover with a vent for the crock. Wastewater off a basement floor is considered sanitary waste, not storm. So in order for water to drain into the sump crock, there would need to be at least 1" of water in the entire basement. Where do you guys run your T&P discharge pipe? We either need a floor drain or a trapped and vented receptor.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Do you spin the pipe in the fitting, to make sure the flux is evenly distributed? I like *No-Korrode All-weather flux*, and I usually only put it on the pipe, just spin the pipe and you are good to go.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> The rim of a sump has to be 1" above the finished floor here. Or you have to have a watertight cover with a vent for the crock. Wastewater off a basement floor is considered sanitary waste, not storm. So in order for water to drain into the sump crock, there would need to be at least 1" of water in the entire basement. Where do you guys run your T&P discharge pipe? We either need a floor drain or a trapped and vented receptor.


We have to pipe the T&P line out of the building at a grade. Piping into a CI floor drain is accepted. Not if pvc etc. If like in a basement where we have to pipe the T&P line up we have to install a tee on the T&P with a valve on bottom and pipe off the side inlet so line can be drained.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

mpsllc said:


> We have to pipe the T&P line out of the building at a grade. Piping into a CI floor drain is accepted. Not if pvc etc. If like in a basement where we have to pipe the T&P line up we have to install a tee on the T&P with a valve on bottom and pipe off the side inlet so line can be drained.


That wouldn't work well here. If some water freezes into the pipe, it could essentially plug the T&P. That would be bad.... No limit on using PVC traps though.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

so where do you drain it to when you open the valve. If you have to do all that might as well just dump it on the floor in the first place. With a 30 ft run and a 10 ft head it probably wouldnt make it outside anyway.





mpsllc said:


> We have to pipe the T&P line out of the building at a grade. Piping into a CI floor drain is accepted. Not if pvc etc. If like in a basement where we have to pipe the T&P line up we have to install a tee on the T&P with a valve on bottom and pipe off the side inlet so line can be drained.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

WaterBoy said:


> *Job Summary*
> Last night I installed a 66 gal. electric w/h. Removed the old tank. Rerouted the pipes to make the job look nicer. Installed ball valve and installed dielectric unions on the new tank.
> 
> *Prep.*
> ...


Don't touch copper pipe or inside of fittings with your bare hands. The oils from your fingers will transfer to the copper and prevent the solder from sticking. Next time you have a leak (yes, there will be a next time) heat up the fitting, pull it apart and study it. By fixing your own leaks, you will learn.


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