# Whats a good way to snake a kitchen sink?



## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

When ever I do any drain cleaning I like to send the snake in and run some water behind it. Ive been connecting a supply line off of the hot water side and shoving the supply line down the drain line, but it seems like extra work. Any better ways?


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Are you seriously stupid enough to shove a water line into a drain?

What the hell is the world coming to. It's no damn wonder plumbers get a bad rap....


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Matt said:


> Are you seriously stupid enough to shove a water line into a drain?
> 
> What the hell is the world coming to. It's no damn wonder plumbers get a bad rap....



Wow, that was kinda harsh. I'm sure there is some kinda airgap being employed.


----------



## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

Matt said:


> Are you seriously stupid enough to shove a water line into a drain?
> 
> What the hell is the world coming to. It's no damn wonder plumbers get a bad rap....


WOW TAKE YOUR MEEDS. Its a make shift supply line I keep on the truck just for that. I dont use that supply line for potable water.


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

vinpadalino said:


> WOW TAKE YOUR MEEDS. Its a make shift supply line I keep on the truck just for that. I dont use that supply line for potable water.


 
The hits keep coming.......

What do you hook that non-potable supply line to right before you shove it down the drain? 

I know I know! THE POTABLE WATER SYSTEM......


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Indie said:


> Wow, that was kinda harsh. I'm sure there is some kinda airgap being employed.


 
Wanna make a wager on that?


----------



## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

in other words its a good way to contaminate the water supply.


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I have a couple of percocet for you Matt. :laughing:


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Do they make medication for trade related stupidity.


----------



## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Matt said:


> Do they make medication for trade related stupidity.


what color do you turn when you get mad?


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I don't get mad HP. Most folks are not intelligent enough to make me angry.


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Matt said:


> Wanna make a wager on that?


Now Matt, you know damn well I was being sarcastic. Of course there is no airgap. Most likely its a 36" supply jammed in the drain.

Really what difference does it make, you can't stop it. What about that bag thing you put on the end of a hose. How many on here have one of those beauties sitting around?

I just had a conversation with another plumber today, we agreed, the availability of good plumbers is dwindling everyday. I glad I only 34, maybe when the scarcity is bad enough I can charge more, and retire early.


----------



## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Got to be a joke, right??


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Bill said:


> Got to be a joke, right??


 
It has to be...


----------



## Plumberologist (Aug 21, 2010)

now fellows and lady im sure the supply line has the appropriate rpz installed to thwart of cross connection calamities. right? 
and snaking from the vent or C/O and running the water at the faucet works better. not to mention he just joined and this is his first post??? fishing???


----------



## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

Matt said:


> The hits keep coming.......
> 
> What do you hook that non-potable supply line to right before you shove it down the drain?
> 
> I know I know! THE POTABLE WATER SYSTEM......


OK what do you do when snaking a main line, thats about 6' off the floor? you dont take a garden hose and shove it about a foot down the drain line when snaking. It's not a air tight seal. I cant picture sewage back siphoning into the potable water. If there's still a clog. The water will shoot back out that same drain pipe and on the floor. 
Theres no way at 50 psi the domestic water is going to be contaminated because it's just going to shoot back out the drain pipe.
Do you not use any water when snaking lines?


----------



## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

vinpadalino said:


> OK what do you do when snaking a main line, thats about 6' off the floor? you dont take a garden hose and shove it about a foot down the drain line when snaking. It's not a air tight seal. I cant picture sewage back siphoning into the potable water. If there's still a clog. The water will shoot back out that same drain pipe and on the floor.
> Theres no way at 50 psi the domestic water is going to be contaminated because it's just going to shoot back out the drain pipe.
> Do you not use any water when snaking lines?


 When I rod an over head sewer I install a custom clean out plug my old man made, its just a brass plug with the center cut out. This way we can run water during a rodding with out it spilling out on us. my father made these long before he ever heard of cross connection cause he knew sticking a hose down the sewer was not a bright idea.

You saying there is no way you can contaminate the domestic water, ever hear of pressure fluctuations? What if for some reason there is a main break, or someone opened a hydrant down the block. As a plumber you should know this basic principle of cross connections and how they are not allowed.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> When I rod an over head sewer I install a custom clean out plug my old man made, its just a brass plug with the center cut out. This way we can run water during a rodding with out it spilling out on us. my father made these long before he ever heard of cross connection cause he knew sticking a hose down the sewer was not a bright idea.
> 
> You saying there is no way you can contaminate the domestic water, ever hear of pressure fluctuations? What if for some reason there is a main break, or someone opened a hydrant down the block. As a plumber you should know this basic principle of cross connections and how they are not allowed.


Why not just turn a faucet on like most people do in the house. It doesn't take much for you to consider somthing custom:laughing:


----------



## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Why not just turn a faucet on like most people do in the house. It doesn't take much for you to consider somthing custom:laughing:


Over head sewer running a faucet = water splashing out on the floor.

The plug with the hole cut out keeps the water from splashing on the floor.


----------



## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

I tried using another faucet in the house, but it doesn't have the volume of water as a hose would. Next time I hold the hose 2" from drain line so have a air gap and spray it.
The hose would have to be submerged in water before it would back siphon, when I do this, the line is clear!


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> Over head sewer running a faucet = water splashing out on the floor.
> 
> The plug with the hole cut out keeps the water from splashing on the floor.


Could you post a picture? I'd like to see it in action.


----------



## Plumberologist (Aug 21, 2010)

unless you have a hung sewer why not just fill the line to flood rim of where you are snaking and when it opens head pressure clears the sh!t from the line.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

99% of K-sink drains here have a vent going straight out the roof. I fill the sink about 1/2 with water and go on the roof and clean the drain. Once I hear the drain start to flow,I stop and go turn on the hot water at the K-sink and continue to clean the drain. No fuss,no mess and it works.


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Can't run water through the fixture if your snaking through the trap adapter. Most likely that is what is happening. Just remember not everyone installs a clean out in kitchen drain lines. 

Most of the time when I snake a kitchen or lav, I have to pull the trap off and snake through there. I rarely see a properly installed clean out, and when a drain is full of water, it is not exactly the best time to install one.


----------



## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

I was thinking of a 5 gallon bucket and have hand pump or a little giant pump. Pump the water into drain line, seems like a lot of work though.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Indie said:


> Can't run water through the fixture if your snaking through the trap adapter. Most likely that is what is happening. Just remember not everyone installs a clean out in kitchen drain lines.
> 
> Most of the time when I snake a kitchen or lav, I have to pull the trap off and snake through there. I rarely see a properly installed clean out, and when a drain is full of water, it is not exactly the best time to install one.


So how do run water while your cleaning the drain? Thats what we are talking about. With no cleanout ....SewerRats custom cleanout plug would not work.


----------



## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

For kitchen sinks I use my Eel Model N with its 5/8 sectional cable. After running the cable down the line I take the cable apart at the trap adapter, then put the trap on and flush the line. Remove the trap pull back the cable. Always worked for me.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> For kitchen sinks I use my Eel Model N with its 5/8 sectional cable. After running the cable down the line I take the cable apart at the trap adapter, then put the trap on and flush the line. Remove the trap pull back the cable. Always worked for me.


So you dont run water while the cable is turning?


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> So you dont run water while the cable is turning?


I usually try to jet open kitchen drains. 

?????

I call this "Jet Attach" Used when a kitchen drain must be jetted .
Take the fernco apart, screw the female adapter on the marvel at the drain connection in the wall. reconnect the fernco with the tee facing down. Rope comes up loops around the faucet secure with a half hitch. Under the tee put a five gallon bucket. Jetter hose now goes in the short piece and through the tee as far as you can push it. Now turn on the jetter all the water that the jetter is using flows into the bucket. As soon as the blockage is penetrated the water then flows down the pipe. This works good no mess ... unless you dump the bucket or overflow it! This is not a tool for stupid users !!! ​


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> I usually try to jet open kitchen drains.
> 
> ?????
> 
> ...


I like that but instead of the bucket you could attach a hose and let the excess run outside.:thumbsup: You make sense with that......you have posted that rig before.


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I like that but instead of the bucket you could attach a hose and let the excess run outside.:thumbsup: You make sense with that......you have posted that rig before.


Yes TM I know I posted that before. But it is a good tool. As to the hose instead of the bucket. That would work but usually when the drain opens there is only about a half a bucket collected as you have already hit the blokage and penetrated it. As to re-posting there are constantly new plumbers on here. Until they find their way around and search they will not get the good stuff. Unless we re-post at times.


----------



## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> So you dont run water while the cable is turning?


O kitche sinks where I can not run water while rodding, no I do not. But I do flush the line while my cable lays in it, and then I pull the rod out and flush the line again. Sometimes I may have to run the rod down a second time. I have yet to get a recall on a kitchen sink line due to poor rodding.


----------



## UnclogNH (Mar 28, 2009)

I just open the clean out and snake away whip it up good if it's a single family go to the basement and listen for the cable see if it's in the stack or main. Close the trap and let the sink run. If it runs I fill the sink with hot water and soap to help flush out the sludge.
If I need water to jet the drain I tap off the toilet supply line most are flexible lines and easy to get at.


----------



## AssTyme (May 15, 2010)

UnclogNH said:


> I just open the clean out and snake away whip it up good if it's a single family go to the basement and listen for the cable see if it's in the stack or main. Close the trap and let the sink run. If it runs I fill the sink with hot water and soap to help flush out the sludge.
> If I need water to jet the drain I tap off the toilet supply line most are flexible lines and easy to get at.




How do you listen for the cable and run the machine at the same time ?


----------



## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

Any good drain cleaning guy uses water to flush the pipes as there snaking. I learned the hard way. I would send a 100' of cable down a waste line, then pull it back, put the trap back on and run the faucet. Oops didn't get it so i would have to do the process all over again. Big waste of time.


----------



## UnclogNH (Mar 28, 2009)

AssTyme said:


> How do you listen for the cable and run the machine at the same time ?


Vice grips on the foot petal leave it running go down stairs and listen :thumbsup:


----------



## UnclogNH (Mar 28, 2009)

vinpadalino said:


> Any good drain cleaning guy uses water to flush the pipes as there snaking. I learned the hard way. I would send a 100' of cable down a waste line, then pull it back, put the trap back on and run the faucet. Oops didn't get it so i would have to do the process all over again. Big waste of time.


It don't a take long to snake out a kitchen sink drain.
Once it's open hit it with the jet if it's full of sludge to open the rest of the drain line.


----------



## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

UnclogNH said:


> It don't a take long to snake out a kitchen sink drain.
> Once it's open hit it with the jet if it's full of sludge to open the rest of the drain line.


I dont have a jet.


----------



## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

vinpadalino said:


> Any good drain cleaning guy uses water to flush the pipes as there snaking. I learned the hard way. I would send a 100' of cable down a waste line, then pull it back, put the trap back on and run the faucet. Oops didn't get it so i would have to do the process all over again. Big waste of time.


Trick is not to run the water to fast at first. If you think about it the rod just broke up the clog, if you run the water real fast or fill the sink and let it go right away, you will just pack the debris into the next fitting. You turn the water on a trickle and let it run for a minute or two then increase the flow, once you get it to max flow you go ahead and fill it up and let it go. Now in my case the cable is still in the line. So I am cleaning off my cable at the same time. Then I remove my cable and repeat the starting of the flow of the water at a trickle then increase the flow.

Only lines I have had trouble with are the ones where the owner put 30 Lbs of potato peals down the drain. In that case I break out my electric jetter and make multiple passes to get all them peals moving along.


----------



## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> Trick is not to run the water to fast at first. If you think about it the rod just broke up the clog, if you run the water real fast or fill the sink and let it go right away, you will just pack the debris into the next fitting. You turn the water on a trickle and let it run for a minute or two then increase the flow, once you get it to max flow you go ahead and fill it up and let it go. Now in my case the cable is still in the line. So I am cleaning off my cable at the same time. Then I remove my cable and repeat the starting of the flow of the water at a trickle then increase the flow.
> 
> Only lines I have had trouble with are the ones where the owner put 30 Lbs of potato peals down the drain. In that case I break out my electric jetter and make multiple passes to get all them peals moving along.


Thats a real cool trick If I had a eel that size. I only have my eel for 3-4"
The point I was trying to make is you have to flush the line with water. If not your going to have call backs and unhappy customers. 
Next time I'll use water out of the boiler so I dont have to hear every ones crap.


----------



## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

vinpadalino said:


> Thats a real cool trick If I had a eel that size. I only have my eel for 3-4"
> The point I was trying to make is you have to flush the line with water. If not your going to have call backs and unhappy customers.
> Next time I'll use water out of the boiler so I dont have to hear every ones crap.


If you use a Ridgid K-50 with 5/8 cable you can do the same.


----------



## 3Peasdrain (Feb 5, 2010)

*kitchen sink*

the line is full of water when you start snaking. Plus you should almost always feel the clog when snaking unless its full of sludge. Run your snake back and forth 2 to 3 times pull it out let the water run slow at first and if possible put your ear to the stack or kitchen line in the basement and listen for the water running through the pipe.Then fill it up and let it go:thumbsup:


----------



## AssTyme (May 15, 2010)

UnclogNH said:


> Vice grips on the foot petal leave it running go down stairs and listen :thumbsup:



:laughing:


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Flushing lines whilst cabling is a must. But "hot" water? I was taught to only use cold water (especially on KS) so the grease can break up and go down drain rather than soften and sludge up. Using hot water wold just insure coating the building drain with grease rather than just the kitchen branch.

Am I missing something?

If no clean out, I like to add a wye on the waste arm of the p-trap and use water from the faucet. I don't see myself being able to safely operate a drain machine (under a sink) and control a supply tube with only two hands. I always look for an excuse to stay off the roof.


----------



## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> Flushing lines whilst cabling is a must. But "hot" water? I was taught to only use cold water (especially on KS) so the grease can break up and go down drain rather than soften and sludge up. Using hot water wold just insure coating the building drain with grease rather than just the kitchen branch.
> 
> Am I missing something?
> 
> If no clean out, I like to add a wye on the waste arm of the p-trap and use water from the faucet. I don't see myself being able to safely operate a drain machine (under a sink) and control a supply tube with only two hands. I always look for an excuse to stay off the roof.


I dont specialize in drain cleaning but there are some cases you cant put a Y fitting, like a pedestal sink.
I guess if you take the pop up assembly out and send the snake down that way. You can use the water. Just plug the pop up opening with your finger.


----------



## Kevan (Jul 5, 2010)

If the roof vent is not a good option and you're running it from under the sink, if you still have one trap intact, you can cram a rag into the opening around your cable and run water down the sink and through the intact trap. The rag minimizes spillage, but your cable stays in place.

The laundry is often near the kitchen. Running water there can carry away sludge and test the drain after you've run your cable.

Another way to test the line while the cable is in place is to flush a toilet and then listen under the kitchen sink. If the KS drain is open, the sound of splashing water should carry and you can hear it in the drain.

When needed, bite the bullet and get up on the roof and cable the line from the vent while water runs in the sink. A drain man who avoids the roof is like a basketball player who can only dribble with one hand.


----------



## AssTyme (May 15, 2010)

Kevan said:


> A drain man who avoids the roof is like a basketball player who can only dribble with one hand.




:tt2:


----------



## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

This thing usually takes care of the problem unless its heavy grease. I haven't met a small drain I couldn't unclog with this.


----------



## AssTyme (May 15, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> This thing usually takes care of the problem unless its heavy grease. I haven't met a small drain I couldn't unclog with this.




What is the make and model number ?


----------



## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Thats a kinetic water ram made by General tools. http://waterram.com/


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Kevan said:


> A drain man who avoids the roof is like a basketball player who can only dribble with one hand.


Be my guest...
I'm not going up there...
I haven't yet and I'm not going to start now...
BTW I clean em just fine...
Those wood and slate shingles can be a little slippery when wet and even worse with a touch of frost on them...:whistling2:


----------



## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Wow!...drain rodding seems to be as varied as the people doing it.
1. hooking a supply tube to an angle stop and shoving in the drain is a violation of what...you fear a cross connection???? dont reuse the supply tube on the next job for water connection:laughing:...geesh, does any body cross in the middle of the street or walk all the way to the corner?? sorry Matt---Im 180 on you there. I worked in Chicago for ten years...we did a lot of stuff and said we really shouldnt do that( like park in the alley and get tickets)...never lost sleep or hurt anyone. When the water backs out because the drain isnt open makes a little mess.
2. Taking the rod out and then having to re cable is a drag especially if there's a lot of black gooey grease to fly around next run but its not that bad to re rod.

or when we ran out of Oakum grab a rag and roll it up and stuff it in


----------



## Kevan (Jul 5, 2010)

Redwood said:


> I'm not going up there


Sometimes the roof is the best option. If you avoid the best option, you are, by definition, not doing that job the best way.

On some houses the roof is not the best option, so you should solve the problem another way.

Don't avoid cleaning drains from the roof. Size up every situation and choose the best (or most promising) approach.


----------



## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Kevan said:


> Sometimes the roof is the best option. If you avoid the best option, you are, by definition, not doing that job the best way.
> 
> On some houses the roof is not the best option, so you should solve the problem another way.
> 
> Don't avoid cleaning drains from the roof. Size up every situation and choose the best (or most promising) approach.


The roof vent is not a proper clean out, and should not be used as such.
Your insurance company will not be happy when you go on a roof and the hidden rot may cause you to fall through. Also if an OSHA official seen you on a roof with out the proper fall protection you will be paying huge fines. There is only three times I will go on a roof. To repair a flashing, poor peppermint oil down the vent stack, and to rod roof drains on a flat roof.

I have ran into a many homes where there is no proper clean out on the stack or in the home for the main. I offered to pull the water closet and explain to the owners that this is not a proper clean out and give them a price on a proper clean out on the stack and one outside. Some will tell me that many plumbers rod the main from the roof and they do not want their water closet pulled. I thank them hand them the estimate for the proper clean outs and leave.


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Be my guest...
> I'm not going up there...
> I haven't yet and I'm not going to start now...
> BTW I clean em just fine...
> Those wood and slate shingles can be a little slippery when wet and even worse with a touch of frost on them...:whistling2:


Boy it sure is fun when you must go up on a roof like that to install and flash a vent. Looks like a 12" run 14" rise.

Anoher topic would be how do you make a flashing. I did a couple of houses with roofs like that. Truck carries a 100' 3/4" rope. I have an electricial pistol that shoots a dart attached to a fine thread. After I shoot that over the roof I pull up a piece of 1/4" nylon rope, then that pulls up the 3/4 rope. One end gets tied to the truck frame with a bowlin. Now you can walk up holding the rope. About 2 feet down from the peak I tie a loop into the rope, the loose end goes through the loop mking a loop I can get around my waste. I can by wiggiling my ass work my way down the roof to the piping location. Do the shingle cutting as necessary. I have made flashings for these high pitch roofs out of sheet lead and out of copper. I lay my electronic level on the roof and read the angle. I the take a piece of plywood and duplicate the angle on the groung by proping up the pluwood as necessay. I then take 1/4" drill and drill a verticle hole {plumb} through the plywood. Then I take a 1/4" rod about a foot long and insert it in a hole saw arbor with a large enough hole saw for the pipe OD and drill the hole on the angle. Then I make a round sleeve of the material to be used for the flashing and solder the seam with a 3# iron. Then placing my round piece through the hole I mark the angle on the pipe and cut the end of the pipe to that angle. I now solder the pipe to a flat piece of the flashing material. Now I fill the flashing with water to test for leaks in the solder joints. No leaks, I then punch a hole in the flat piece. I now have a flashing that lays flat on the roof and the verticle is perfect for a plumb piping install. At the top I do not fold in the lead or copper flashing into the pipe. Instead I remove the stop ring on a copper or plasic manhoff fitting. I then put the bottom of the manhoff down over flashing and either solder or glue [in the case of plastic] the manhoff to the pipe. OHSA appproved I doubt it but I didn't have the men go up I did, The man with me put the tools in the bucket and did the inside work.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> The roof vent is not a proper clean out, and should not be used as such.
> Your insurance company will not be happy when you go on a roof and the hidden rot may cause you to fall through. Also if an OSHA official seen you on a roof with out the proper fall protection you will be paying huge fines. There is only three times I will go on a roof. To repair a flashing, poor peppermint oil down the vent stack, and to rod roof drains on a flat roof.
> 
> I have ran into a many homes where there is no proper clean out on the stack or in the home for the main. I offered to pull the water closet and explain to the owners that this is not a proper clean out and give them a price on a proper clean out on the stack and one outside. Some will tell me that many plumbers rod the main from the roof and they do not want their water closet pulled. I thank them hand them the estimate for the proper clean outs and leave.


Yes flat roofs dont rot and people dont fall off of flat roofs or ladders. I'm not responsible for repairing a roof that is rotten if i step through it......my camera would win that argument in court everytime. Osha can kiss my azz:thumbsup: I've ran roof vents with reel machines with the cable ran through the top rung of my ladder and an extension on the foot control......so much infact I almost wore out the ladder:laughing: Where was OSHA? :laughing: This jobs for men:whistling2: or really strong women:laughing:


----------



## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I dont think OSHA hits on residential very much. Years ago my son got hit in the head ( a few stitches and a worried old man) with a double roof jack. The roofers were worse than Ive ever seen for cowboy attitudes.....I called OSHA to ask their opinion about fencing off areas for tossing stuff down and he said.....people fly thru those houses so fast they dont target it unless a death or something...and rule #1 was always finger point the employer ..me...my responsibility to teach the art of watching out for flying roof jacks. The fines are big though----------anyway my OSHA two cents.


----------



## Kevan (Jul 5, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> The roof vent is not a proper clean out, and should not be used as such. Your insurance company will not be happy when you go on a roof and the hidden rot may cause you to fall through. Also if an OSHA official seen you on a roof with out the proper fall protection you will be paying huge fines.


Roto-Rooter is a pretty big outfit and definitely on top of government rules and regs and they always allowed us to use the roof. I think OSHA must allow it.

OSHA doesn't cover self-employed persons, so it's not a concern of mine.

I'm sure that the number of roof vents I've run goes into the thousands. I've never fallen and never put my foot through rotten wood.

When words are used carefully, one may say that a vent is not a "proper" cleanout. In my work, though, I am only interested in finding the best way to solve a problem. "Best" is, I'll admit, a judgment call that includes safety to me and to the customer's property, as well as speed, cost, profit, the likelihood of a callback, and the overall impression on the customer. But one factor that never enters the equation is whether or not my approach is _proper_.


----------



## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Kevan said:


> *OSHA doesn't cover self-employed persons, so it's not a concern of mine.*


You better rethink that. OSHA will go after you if they see you violating their rules and regulations. I know a self-employed plumber that got hit with a $5000.00 fine for sticking his head into a manhole to listen for his rod. He went out popped open the manhole tried to hear the rod but traffic noise was to loud so he stuck his head a few inches into the manhole in hopes to hear the rod. An OSHA officer happened to see it and wrote him up for breaking the plain of entry with out checking the air and having the proper confined space entry gear. He tried to fight it, and ended up paying the fine, lawyers fees, and lost a day of work.


----------



## AssTyme (May 15, 2010)

Kevan said:


> I've never fallen and never put my foot through rotten wood.



All it takes is one time and there might not ever be a chance at a 2nd :blink:


----------



## Kevan (Jul 5, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> You better rethink that.


I try to look when I can; then I don't have to think. I got it from the OSHA web site, which saith:

*Who is not covered by the OSH Act:* 

Self employed;
Immediate family members of farm employers that do not employ outside employees; and
Workers who are protected by another Federal agency (for example the Mine Safety and Health Administration, FAA, Coast Guard).
I can only wonder how your acquaintance fell prey to the Oshapo unless the web site has it wrong.

Everything is dangerous if you become careless. A solitary jail cell, on the other hand, is as carefree a situation as I can imagine. This pretty well illustrates my opinion of OSHA, for the most part.


----------



## Kevan (Jul 5, 2010)

AssTyme said:


> All it takes is one time and there might not ever be a chance at a 2nd :blink:


That's true, AT, but we can usually form good judgments of danger by looking at experience. That's why we are willing to drive cars, even though every oncoming car has the potential to kill us. Two bazillion people drive umpteen jillion miles every day, and almost none of them has a head-on collision.

Yes, I could fall; but experience demonstrates that it is highly unlikely.

I have done stupid and dangerous things before which I have learned not to repeat. The risk is *far* too great. But hitting drains from the roof isn't one of them.


----------



## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

((((Flushing lines while cabling is a must. But "hot" water? I was taught to only use cold water (especially on KS)(quote) so the grease can break up and go down drain rather than soften and sludge up. Using hot water wold just insure coating the building drain with grease rather than just the kitchen branch.)) I run hot water last, after I open the line and wash it out with cold ,the HOT is to clean my cable.Does anyone ever use the 1/4 cable machine with 50' of cable? I run the small cable thru the basket strainer ,with trap on (sure I bust a few traps ,but not many and I have plenty on truck) across the arm and down stack ,on short lines 25 to 35 ' this opens line and washes it out too .Long lines I go to roof if possible any machine that holds at least 50' of 1/4'" cable will work I use drain cable direct in my little gorlitz machine its perfect for counter tops put a towell or rug under it


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Kevan said:


> Sometimes the roof is the best option. If you avoid the best option, you are, by definition, not doing that job the best way.
> 
> On some houses the roof is not the best option, so you should solve the problem another way.
> 
> Don't avoid cleaning drains from the roof. Size up every situation and choose the best (or most promising) approach.


Doood...

Did you look at that roof? Open your eyes man...:whistling2:
Up here we get snow in the winter and the roofs on houses have pitch!

I'll avoid going on any roof that will easily slide me off the roof and deposit me in a busted up heap on the ground 2 floors down. That way I can do more work and make more money instead of lie in a hospital bed with my boss there asking what happened only to mutter dumbazz under his breath after I finish telling him the story...:whistling2:

Yep I agree size up is important on every job and if I ever move south and work in the trade I might bother to look up at the roof...

Here there is almost no point in doing so!:yes:


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Boy it sure is fun when you must go up on a roof like that to install and flash a vent. Looks like a 12" run 14" rise.
> 
> Anoher topic would be how do you make a flashing. I did a couple of houses with roofs like that.


Hey I said I wasn't going on that roof and I meant it! :laughing:

Haven't you heard of a Kozy Kollar?
http://www.kozykollar.com/


----------



## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Most of the time roof flashings arn't my deal. I usually supply the flashing and a roofer will install it. If it is an existing building I will tie the new vent into the existing stack since every house needs at least a 3" stack.


----------



## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

retired rooter said:


> ((((Flushing lines while cabling is a must. But "hot" water? I was taught to only use cold water (especially on KS)(quote) so the grease can break up and go down drain rather than soften and sludge up. Using hot water wold just insure coating the building drain with grease rather than just the kitchen branch.)) I run hot water last, after I open the line and wash it out with cold ,the HOT is to clean my cable.Does anyone ever use the 1/4 cable machine with 50' of cable? I run the small cable thru the basket strainer ,with trap on (sure I bust a few traps ,but not many and I have plenty on truck) across the arm and down stack ,on short lines 25 to 35 ' this opens line and washes it out too .Long lines I go to roof if possible


Ive been looking for a machine that fits doen basket strainers. Does General make one? That would save a **** load of time, trap break just charge extra.:thumbup:


----------



## Kevan (Jul 5, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Doood...
> 
> Did you look at that roof? Open your eyes man...:whistling2: Up here we get snow in the winter and the roofs on houses have pitch!


We get snow in Memphis, too. It snowed just last winter. We took pictures and sent them to our relatives, posted them on Facebook, all kinds of stuff. Had to shut our windows and turn on the central heat. It was brutal.

I'm with you on that. I didn't dare get on a roof that day. If there wasn't a good way to do the job on the ground, customers had to wait until the next day when the snow was melted off.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Kevan said:


> We get snow in Memphis, too. It snowed just last winter.












I don't think you get it Kevan...
I take it that it snowed once last winter in Memphis...
It must have been quite a novelty....

I bet it must have shut down all the roads, businesses closed for the day and all sorts of things happened...

On the other hand we had probably one of the mildest snowfall years I can remember last year. I only had to plow the driveway about 5 or 6 times...

We've also had years where it snowed every day for a couple of months with close to 100" season total where you start running out of places to pile the white crap. There are a number of guys here where they get even more than that. The funny thing is when it happens we may start a little later in the morning after digging out our vans and waiting for the plows to come by but things almost never shut down. Its just another day in the winter...

And it doesn't melt off in a day either...
It will melt off most years by the end of February...

Here's some pictures that might help you to comprehend...:whistling2:


----------



## Kevan (Jul 5, 2010)

Redwood said:


> I don't think you get it Kevan.


No?


> I bet it must have shut down all the roads, businesses closed for the day and all sorts of things happened.


You got that right. They called the parents and had 'em come get their kids from school, too. It's all the news could talk about: *Winter Storm 2010.*


> Here's some pictures that might help you to comprehend...:whistling2:


I appreciate that.

Maybe I can restate my point in a more agreeable way. Avoiding the roof is like taking a tool out of your box. A pipe wrench can do pretty much what channellocks do, but we all understand that some things are harder with a pipe wrench, so we don't want to drive up to a house without slip-joint pliers in the toolbox.

If a roof is pitched like a European cathedral, if the vent is two stories up, if the roof is slick with ice or snow, if it's raining heavily, if the old asphalt shingles are little more than storage sheets for millions of tiny ball bearings -- then the roof is not a good option _for that particular job_. Anybody who can successfully adjust the float on a Fluidmaster knows that.

On some other jobs, the roof is the best option _for that particular job_. In such cases, if you've just decided you aren't going on the roof, you're sacrificing something: either the customer's interests or your own.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Kevan said:


> If a roof is pitched like a European cathedral which most of them are in the northern climate for snow loading, if the vent is two stories up, if the roof is slick with frost which is typical from the beginning of October until mid April, ice or snow typical from mid November to mid April, if it's raining heavily, if the old asphalt shingles are little more than storage sheets for millions of tiny ball bearings or, if the roof is a slate roof, or if the roof is a wood shingle roof over with moss on it or if the roof is wood shingle over plank -- then the roof is not a good option _for that particular job_.


There Kevan I fixed it a little and I can live with it now...
You see on the average we get about 10X the amount of snow you will ever see.
This snow has weight so buildings are constructed differently to prevent the snow loading on the roof from collapsing the roof. 
http://www.eng.uab.edu/cee/faculty/ndelatte/case_studies_project/Hartford Civic Center/hartford.htm
This design involves a steep pitch on most buildings.

So yea, in the north the last place we look is up to the roof.
Besides, what good would it do when there is a house trap in the basement.
It's all part of the size up! Here it is seldom an option...


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Kevan said:


> Maybe I can restate my point in a more agreeable way. Avoiding the roof is like taking a tool out of your box. A pipe wrench can do pretty much what channellocks do, but we all understand that some things are harder with a pipe wrench, so we don't want to drive up to a house without slip-joint pliers in the toolbox.


Maybe my statement that I always avoid roofs was misunderstood. I never said I never go on a roof. I was on a roof yesterday assisting with a locating job. But I did avoid it and I did not like it (for me or my employees).

So yes, it would be like removing a tool from my tool bag...a 48" Stillson is an awesome pipe wrench. Although I AVOID using it there is a place in my shop just in case I HAVE to use it. I guess citizens in Montreal aren't allowed to have stopped up sinks from late December to April since Santa is the only fellow on those roofs. 

There are several factors that determine what the best solution is but fast and easy seldom make the list for consideration.


----------



## Kevan (Jul 5, 2010)

> So yea, in the north the last place we look is up to the roof.
> Besides, what good would it do when there is a house trap in the basement.
> It's all part of the size up! Here it is seldom an option...





SewerRatz said:


> Some will tell me that many plumbers rod the main from the roof and they do not want their water closet pulled. I thank them hand them the estimate for the proper clean outs and leave.


Whom should I believe? :confused1:

It sounds to me like some drain men in the north do roofs and others don't. Did I miss something?


----------



## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Kevan said:


> Whom should I believe? :confused1:
> 
> It sounds to me like some drain men in the north do roofs and others don't. Did I miss something?


When I was young and dumb I did rodded mains from the roof. I used to think I had to get the main open no matter how dangerous it was. But as I got older I got a little wiser. I tell people the truth, rodding from the roof is not proper, nor is pulling the water closet really. Code states pulling a water closet is not an alternative to a clean out. So I explain to them the benefits of having a proper clean out installed and that for now I can pull the water closest to get them open. Again if they do not want me to pull the water closet, and insist on rodding from the roof, I say thank you for calling, and leave.


----------



## Kevan (Jul 5, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> When I was young and dumb I did rodded mains from the roof. I used to think I had to get the main open no matter how dangerous it was.


Who taught you to do the work that way? Was it someone who ran mains from the roof *in the north*?

The original topic was a kitchen sink drain, which I think we agree is not so dangerous as a main line. Even still, I run mains from the roof when it seems to be the best approach for a particular job.

I think I can identify with the young, dumb, and dangerous stage you referred to. That's what I was talking about earlier when I confessed to doing stupid and dangerous things. But I cannot agree that working on the roof is dangerous _in itself_. When I've said that the roof is the best option sometimes, that obviously excludes a situation that could be described as "no matter how dangerous." If there's something particularly dangerous about that particular roof, then it cannot the best option for that particular job.


----------



## AssTyme (May 15, 2010)




----------



## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Kevan said:


> Who taught you to do the work that way? Was it someone who ran mains from the roof *in the north*?
> 
> The original topic was a kitchen sink drain, which I think we agree is not so dangerous as a main line. Even still, I run mains from the roof when it seems to be the best approach for a particular job.
> 
> I think I can identify with the young, dumb, and dangerous stage you referred to. That's what I was talking about earlier when I confessed to doing stupid and dangerous things. But I cannot agree that working on the roof is dangerous _in itself_. When I've said that the roof is the best option sometimes, that obviously excludes a situation that could be described as "no matter how dangerous." If there's something particularly dangerous about that particular roof, then it cannot the best option for that particular job.


 Rodding a kitchen sink from a roof around here is not an option 99% of the time. The kitchen sink vent ties into the main stack. But no matter what its still to dangerous to rod from the roof.

As who taught me to rod a drain period is my father which has been drain cleaning for over 50 years. I been at this for over 20 years.


----------



## Kevan (Jul 5, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> As who taught me to rod a drain period is my father which has been drain cleaning for over 50 years.


Since your father taught you to clean drains and you used to clean them from the roof, it sounds like you learned the roof technique from your father, and that both you and he were doing things this way back then. If so, I'm sure that each of you chose that approach because you thought that it was the best option for that particular job. 

You said in an earlier post that your competitors run these drains from the roof. Those competitors apparently think that the roof is the best option for those particular jobs.

These men, who at one time included you and your father, are not idiots and they are not Southerners (I do not mean to repeat myself). They just have a different outlook. It is an outlook I share and that I recommend to other drain men. That said, I would add that I have a high degree of respect for those who differ, so long as they forged their opinions on the anvil of experience and are committed to treating the customer fairly; and I believe that both of those things are true of you.


----------



## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

any machine that will hold 50' of 1/4" open hook cable I buy from draincable direct will go thru strainers with a few tricks send me message for details I gave better answer on other post disreguard this one


----------

