# Indian people



## Pacificpipes (Oct 1, 2013)

I'm not racist at all. Why are Indian people so difficulty to deal with from start to finish? I've been not accepting service calls because it's just too much of a hassle. Any insight on a better angle?


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## Pacificpipes (Oct 1, 2013)

I feel like my work isn't valued when I do an awesome job that's why I have been turning down calls.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Guys here used to speak negatively of Indian customers due to them wanting to haggle endlessly over price. 

I had never experienced it for myself up until a few months ago. An Indian gentleman purchased a {400} room hotel in my area. He contacted me about replacing some copper piping that had been stolen. I went out, looked at the work, gave him a written estimate and collected a small fee for leaving a written estimate. He calls a day or two later and really low-balls my price. I said 'no, I can't do it for that.' He kept on relentlessly trying to get me to cave in. I said 'no' a few more times. Finally, against my polite demeanor, I realized I had to hang up on him. I remember telling him, "I'm sorry Mr. So-and-so, I cannot work for you." Then I hung up the phone. He was not going to pay my price, no way, no how.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Pacificpipes said:


> I'm not racist at all. Why are Indian people so difficulty to deal with from start to finish? I've been not accepting service calls because it's just too much of a hassle. Any insight on a better angle?[/QUOTE
> Indians and Asians are in the same boat for me. Got a call the other day from an Asian guy asking if I install a certain type of whole house water filter system and I told him no even though I do. From experience as soon as I give the price all but one so far have said that's too much.


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## piper1 (Dec 16, 2011)

I found a way to handle this. if I quote a price for something. example : toilet install.. and I say 175.00 for the install... customer, says can you do better on the price...sure I can.. how's 225.00 sound to you.. customer, wait that's not better.. I tell them it is for us, you asked if I could do better. u didn't say for who... I already gave u a good price first. I could have just raised it to start with.. but I gave you the our best price first..


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

Is it racist if I say I hate most Armenians?....funny thing though is I is one :laughing: wait...does that mean deep down I hate myself? Whoa! Heavy stuff right there! I used to get calls all the time from them once word got out about an "Armenian plumber", but similar to many foreign groups, it's always like....no no no no no no no no no no no no no no, my frlend my frlend! This prrrice iss no good! Forlget the upgraded toilet, how much forl de basic one. Then I'm like ok here's my price. Then they're like, so den we split de difference and you put in de good toilet forl dis prlice! Then I'm like f**k no:laughing:
Sorry bout the spelling, I was tryin to catch the accent, so as yur readin it, it's funny!


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## Pacificpipes (Oct 1, 2013)

They always want to haggle I get that but they always do the price breakdown thing. I always say no.


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## piper1 (Dec 16, 2011)

I don't think it's not racist, to bring up how other cultures think..as plumbers you deal with all walks of life.. if I make a good deal buying a car. I feel that I did good. what's the diff.


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## piper1 (Dec 16, 2011)

I say no to the price breakdown too. that is just an opening for more haggling. that's the price,


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

Pacificpipes said:


> They always want to haggle I get that but they always do the price breakdown thing. I always say no.


Sounds like your alleviating a lot of stress by just eliminating them! It's not a really a racist thing as much as a cultural thing..I think that sounds better. I mean, I don't care what race you are, if you don't value me as a plumber, I won't value you as a customer...don't want it, don't need it!


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## piper1 (Dec 16, 2011)

some cultrues , don't value plumbers. and that's just the way they think. I got friends that think I make to much.. (till they have a flood)


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

I'm hourly, so I tell them the rate, parts mark-up, etc. They either take it or leave it....they don't haggle time and material, see? Give them a flat rate and they will question it.


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## piper1 (Dec 16, 2011)

plumber. u said price mark-up ..they don't say; oh i'll buy the parts?


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## tims007 (Aug 31, 2013)

i had a new asian food company ask me to do work .. the manager who can make checks agreed to the price... .. the owner when i was done asked for a break down on the costs .. so i said no thats not what i do .. so he demanded a breakdown .. so i took the total cost .450 and split it inot half 225 each and put parts on on line and labor on the other line ... handed him his reciept as the manager got me the check... hse then said can i see your parts reciept.. i said no why would i do that ...????.. he said cause i asked .. so i said if i eat here and you bring me the bill and i ask to see your reciept for the food you just made me what would you say .... he said good point.. and i left


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Some of them are ok folks and I work for them on occasion, but the ones that own hotels are the absolute worst....

I cannot stand even stepping foot on the property to listen to them whine and haggle like another race of folks you have to deal with...(who live in the middle east)..:whistling2:

presently I have $400 dollars outstanding with one that 
I dealt with last month....about 40 days out and just mailed them a past due notice.....


I like to keep them on a short leash..

but I do love the food they cook when I get into their homes...
if you can stand the heat from molten lava its great......


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## Plumbbum0203 (Dec 14, 2011)

I've caved and lowered my price before.I was weak minded at the time. It always will bite you in the ash. Something will break or not go right. I just price high and hope the tell me to leave. The worst is when you give the price and they talk to a family member in front of you in native tongue. You just know they are ripping you to pieces.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Pacificpipes said:


> They always want to haggle I get that but *they always do the price breakdown thing.* I always say no.













That's what the hotel owner did to me; how many hours will the job take you? How much are you paying for the material? The man owned a hotel. Would he like it if I tried to haggle the price of a room for the night?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

There is a cultural difference in negotiations and every deal is subject to negotiation with Indians...

You might do well to read this...


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

When I was in Ohio I did not have to learn how to deal with different cultures. In our area most of the people were either Black or White.Athletes,burnouts,people that partied, religious fanatics were all the same people. It made life real simple. I am sure that is different today then it was in the 90's

When we moved to Florida it became a cultural shock for me and business. It took a long time to understand business in a different way. Each culture has their own quirks. It used to be in the traditional White family the husband made the decision on repairing,today it is the female. Hispanics you must speak to the makle first as a sign of respect.Middle Easterners and Asians love to negotiate and it is a sign of wisdom to have the ability to negotiate. I had to learn to identify this and change our system to allow negotiating. Give the feeling and perception they won the engtiating battle and you have won a customer for life.225.00 becomes 275.00 and the customer asks can you do better, what are you thinking? How about 250.00, I'll give you 225.00. Ok.

Before we give a price you must identify our customers. I used to say we must qualify our customers. When I thought that way everybody was my customer.Today I have changed that to I must disqualify a customer as a fit for our company and I have way less headaches and a higher profit margin.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

I like to approach the job with, say, $225 estimate calculation in situations were I know 'culturally' I expect to get a request to lower my price. Offer to do the job for $300, then negotiate down to $250. Make money and have fun using the negotiating instinct against them. Of course it doesn't always work but worth a shot every time.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

I love when racist people start out a conversation with "I'm not racist", then follow up with a stereotype statement. I find almost all owners/managers small commercial business have worked real hard to get where they are frugal with their spending. We all make a choice whether we want to work for that person.

I have a friend of 45 years who is of Indian descent from the Fiji Island. He is one of the most sought out director of music videos in the world. Would you put him in the same category?

Mark


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> I love when racist people start out a conversation with "I'm not racist", then follow up with a stereotype statement. I find almost all owners/managers small commercial business have worked real hard to get where they are frugal with their spending. We all make a choice whether we want to work for that person.
> 
> I have a friend of 45 years who is of Indian descent from the Fiji Island. He is one of the most sought out director of music videos in the world. Would you put him in the same category?
> 
> Mark


Not enough information. Does he haggle?

When in Rome . . .

Why is it that we are expected to accept what we consider to be rude?


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

I don't return voicemails from anyone with a middle eastern accent. Nor do I give those guys more than 4 mins on the phone. I'm busy all the time I refuse to adjust my American way of doing business based on the way the country you fled does things.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Phat Cat said:


> Not enough information. Does he haggle?
> 
> When in Rome . . .
> 
> Why is it that we are expected to accept what we consider to be rude?


Not that I've seen. When you have work done in your truck do you shop prices or give the shop a blank check. Being prejudice is being prejudice. You are welcome to call it what what you but PZ has even condoned "Mr Patel" threads. Gandhi was from India, is it okay to degrade him. He was a London trained lawyer who returned to India and defeated the British Empire without using violence. Martin Luther King was a big fan of what Gandhi was able to accomplish. Will you denigrate Blacks next? How is this any different than any other ethnic, cultural or racial comments?

Mark


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

Pacificpipes said:


> I'm not racist at all. Why are Indian people so difficulty to deal with from start to finish? I've been not accepting service calls because it's just too much of a hassle. Any insight on a better angle?


Sound racist to me when you single out a group ,and what kind of Indian do you mean


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

you guys are so racist, Richard had it right you need to Cater to each culture, the ones who like to haggle i always raise my price 20-40% 1000$ job becomes a 1400$, It serves two purposes, allows them to claim they brought me down and saves them face (thinking they got the better of me), also if they bring me down to 1200$ or 1100$ i still make extra money for the trouble, as long as they think they won, they will be a repeat customer. 

As far as my invoices from the wholesaler, mine don't have pricing on them, also my discount % is not shown either. i also have a good working relationship with my Wholesaler, they often call me when one of my customers is price checking, they will give the customer the marked up price, it doesn't matter then if i make the part sale or the Wholesaler (they give me a credit equal the the markup) everyone wins.


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## Pacificpipes (Oct 1, 2013)

Unclog1776 said:


> I don't return voicemails from anyone with a middle eastern accent. Nor do I give those guys more than 4 mins on the phone. I'm busy all the time I refuse to adjust my American way of doing business based on the way the country you fled does things.


 Word


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I refuse to lie about the cost to provide service. I will not adopt a practice I find offensive, just to appease someone that thinks it acceptable.

That said, there are two places in the U.S. where haggling and yelling prices down is accepted. The NY Stock Exchange and flea markets. Neither of which is where I conduct business.


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## Pacificpipes (Oct 1, 2013)

I know it sounds racist and it's the old I don't want to offend you but. I probably should have asked it a different way. I was asking for how to better deal with the situation redwood and Richard nailed it like always, learn the people and prosper. I was speaking of Indians in the dot not feather variety.


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## wharfrat (Nov 1, 2014)

I hate having to play that game. I keep the price the same no matter what. I explain that my price is the best I can I do and thats it. Sometimes you can see the haggle coming from a mile away. What really drives me up the wall is when the price has been settled, the work completed, and then the haggle. Having grown men literally begging for a discount is awkward and I don't know how some folks do it. I think it is ok to ask for a great price, but to beg, plead, argue and throw all of your dignity out the window in the process is beyond me. Getting to meet all walks of life...just one more perk of the profession.


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## Pacificpipes (Oct 1, 2013)

Time is money in America


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## wharfrat (Nov 1, 2014)

I had a guy try and pay with Wendy's gift cards. He owned the Wendy's and agreed to the price. I had to threaten to pull the urinal off the wall and take it with me for him to finally pay in normal currency. I could not believe it. My boss laughed at me for days and just said, " welcome to the real world"


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## wookie (Dec 16, 2008)

I've never learned how to haggle, just not me. I show up for estimate, figure out a price and present the cost. NO haggling. The price will only get changed if the scope of work changes. I believe if you lower your price the customer is thinking yeah that  plumber was trying over charge me.

I'm decent at the phone interview to see if we'll be able to do business. I'll try to come up with price range if they still want to talk cool!

Rarely get into haggle hassles. :whistling2:


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## Pacificpipes (Oct 1, 2013)

wookie said:


> I've never learned how to haggle, just not me. I show up for estimate, figure out a price and present the cost. NO haggling. The price will only get changed if the scope of work changes. I believe if you lower your price the customer is thinking yeah that  plumber was trying over charge me. I'm decent at the phone interview to see if we'll be able to do business. I'll try to come up with price range if they still want to talk cool! Rarely get into haggle hassles. :whistling2:


 I do the price range thing to for phone shoppers. With a 500 dollar variable.


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## PlumberDave (Jan 4, 2009)

I do not haggle the price. "Mr this is what it costs sign here before I begin." I walk or work. Even gone into the culture thing with a few folks "this might be how it works in your world, but I find it degrading" and yes I have been accused of being a racist for my way of handling it, to which I reply "OK" it's a free country. I am very forward with my "culture" and I will not bend over for them. Hispanic, Asian, Black, White or Questionable others.


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## 4Aces Plumbing (Aug 26, 2011)

Threads like this are a lose lose situation. While I do understand the point some of you are making, you don't think some people would consider it racist that you jacked the price up for a certain ethnic origin? 

Unfortunately America has become a place where anytime we make a post like this, or ask a question we have to be so politically correct it's ridiculous because somebody will get offended.


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## Pacificpipes (Oct 1, 2013)




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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Pacificpipes said:


> Time is money in America


How true...:yes:

Until you try to place your value for time as a value with an Indian Negotiator...:blink:

Unlike us, the Indians view time subjectively. when you examine the different cultures you deal with you'll find Indians will be the least sensitive to time considerations. While we are out to conquer the world and hopefully by tomorrow, Indians do not have that same sense of urgency as North Americans do. Since the arrival of Alexander the Great and the Macedonian Army and on through Roman Empire various European Trading Partners have subjected India to Colonialism, the Portuguese, the Dutch, the Danish, the French, the Spanish, and British. Even Japan occupied parts of India in WW II! 

The lack of sensitivity to time stems from them having more of a “being” than a “doing” orientation, and this difference in the orientation affects their sensitivity to time.

Their culture has many stories of things such as the ant moving a tree which of course is impossible for a single ant to do, but since ants work collectively pushing and pulling in unison with the ability to carry more than their own body weight it becomes possible....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S1GdRfep-4

The Indian Culture has a great amount of patience and it took them 335 years to throw the British rule out of India they did so in a massive pacifist movement led by Mahatma Gandhi...

This country was discovered by someone bumping into it looking for a faster trade route to get to India...

Good Luck bulling your way through a quick negotiation with them placing value on something they have no value for...:laughing:

They will wear you down and spit you out like betel juice...

Sorry thats all of the seriousness for today... 
We did well stopping the open discussion of Mr Patel here, but we still do dumb things like open a discussion with, "I'm Not Racist, But....":laughing:
I've got to get back to the P&R Forum for a brilliant discussion on ******** and islamophobia...:thumbup::laughing:


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

4Aces Plumbing said:


> Threads like this are a lose lose situation. While I do understand the point some of you are making, you don't think some people would consider it racist that you jacked the price up for a certain ethnic origin?
> 
> Unfortunately America has become a place where anytime we make a post like this, or ask a question we have to be so politically correct it's ridiculous because somebody will get offended.



Nothing racist about using different math methods to get the same answer.


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

Jacking up a price for a certain ethnicity is extremely racist. I bet a lawsuit could be brought to a company for doing it.

Posting an artical about how they are culturally different and there concept of time is not valued the same is racist.

Not answering the phone because of a persons accent is racist.


Saying you don't like to deal with a certain ethnicity is racist.

treating an ethnic group any different than you treat anybody is racist.

All that being said I do business my way, nobody elses


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

saysflushable said:


> Jacking up a price for a certain ethnicity is extremely racist. I bet a lawsuit could be brought to a company for doing it. Posting an artical about how they are culturally different and there concept of time is not valued the same is racist. Not answering the phone because of a persons accent is racist. Saying you don't like to deal with a certain ethnicity is racist. treating an ethnic group any different than you treat anybody is racist. All that being said I do business my way, nobody elses


 jacking the price is not racist. That is just a smart business move. I have a couple old German decent costumers that I increase the cost just so they can beat me down. They smile after I lower the cost and I smile because they pay me what I wanted. Everybody goes away happy. It is very important to know your costumer just because you treat every situation differently does not make it racist. Every costumer is different and you adjust pricing to fit the situation.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Persons that attempt to force their ethnic culture on me are racists. 

In this country people are free to call me a racist...no matter how ignorant of the meaning of 'racist' they are.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> Persons that attempt to force their ethnic culture on me are racists.
> 
> In this country people are free to call me a racist...no matter how ignorant of the meaning of 'racist' they are.


I am the center of the Universe...:laughing:

My own little universe... But damn it... I'm the center...:laughing:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Redwood said:


> I am the center of the Universe...:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> My own little universe... But damn it... I'm the center...:laughing:



Why yes. Yes I am! 😎

I plan to walk amongst the street vendors in Dubai. I will try to force them to change their business model and tell me in advance what the bottom dollar is without garage-sale negotiations.

I wonder if they will brand me a racist?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> Why yes. Yes I am! 😎
> 
> I plan to walk amongst the street vendors in Dubai. I will try to force them to change their business model and tell me in advance what the bottom dollar is without garage-sale negotiations.
> 
> I wonder if they will brand me a racist?


Ummmm Dubai is a city in the United Arab Emirates and is an entirely different country with about a 1,000 mile swim across the Arabian Sea in between...

Dubai, in the UAE is mostly Islamic in terms of religion, while India is mostly Hindu, Buddhist, Jainist and Sikha, along with a small Christian and Islamic population....

I would pay good money to watch a YouTube Video of you attempting to negotiate with an Indian Merchant....:laughing:

There was a reason why 3 boats bumped into Murica while looking for a faster trade route to get to India...:laughing:

By 2035 India is expected to be the 3rd Largest Economy in the World behind China and the US....

Not to worry though, in your universe it will probably be limited to a few No-Tell Motels and Quickie Marts...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Ummmm Dubai is a city in the United Arab Emirates and is an entirely different country with about a 1,000 mile swim across the Arabian Sea in between...


Dubai, New Dehli, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Mexico City, Bangkok, Karachi, or Montreal. My point is the same and you missed it...or most likely are wanting to ignore it. Although, I am sure the geography lesson helped somebody. 😄

Standing by the cultural ideology and practices in which I was raised, while doing business in my homeland, makes me a racist.

Fine by me but we dare not be unjust with the label placed by stupidity...

The street vendors on foreign soil refusing to adhere to my culture, are racist. 
Black and white people demanding I suffer for sins that are not mine, are racists. 
Black people holding dear the N word while crying foul if a white man says it, are racist.
Black and white people voting for a black leader because of his color, are racists.
Quebec's political leaders and citizens that demand a French language society, are racists.
Defending a country from the tyranny of another, is racist.
A Mexican flying a Mexican flag on U.S. soil, is a racist.
Celebrating Cinco de Mayo anywhere but Mexico, is racist.

And by all means...

Asians that expect me to itemize and negotiate, are RACISTS!

Patels that expect me to itemize and negotiate, are RACISTS!


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## PeckPlumbing (Mar 19, 2011)

'you give me good price?'
'you go lower?'
'cut me deal?'
'how much, how much?'
'I pay cash, you go low?'

The list goes on and on... we all have heard it. Lol.

Wrote up a bill for a service call, like 120$ ... "is that the best you can do" they ask.. umm, how about you pay and we never come back.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

PeckPlumbing said:


> 'you give me good price?' 'you go lower?' 'cut me deal?' 'how much, how much?' 'I pay cash, you go low?' The list goes on and on... we all have heard it. Lol. Wrote up a bill for a service call, like 120$ ... "is that the best you can do" they ask.. umm, how about you pay and we never come back.


That's dead on, word for word.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Ummmm Dubai is a city in the United Arab Emirates and is an entirely different country with about a 1,000 mile swim across the Arabian Sea in between...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Try to focus on the topic at hand RW. This is not now, nor was it ever a religious issue.

And as far as the boat bumping goes, India was the trade leader because of their vast numbers and location. Not just their ability. Location is irrelevant in the world economy of shipping and receiving today. Shocking as it may be, there are places outside of New England that have airplanes, phones, and internet access. 😱

Watch me negotiate? That would be a pay-per-view event. I don't provide that much education for free. And yes, you would want to take notes. Don't be so naive to think my refusal to allow my prices to be negotiated equates to me being a poor negotiator. I can hold my own just fine. :yes:


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

I have to apologize to all I said were doing anything racist. By the definitions I found in the American heritage college dictionary and internet search nobody posted anything racist. 

My apologize to all


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

saysflushable said:


> I have to apologize to all I said were doing anything racist. By the definitions I found in the American heritage college dictionary and internet search nobody posted anything racist. My apologize to all


You ever walk into a building and see a sign posted that says
"We Reserve The Right To Refuse Service To Anyone For Any Reason"


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

wyrickmech said:


> jacking the price is not racist. That is just a smart business move. I have a couple old German decent costumers that I increase the cost just so they can beat me down. They smile after I lower the cost and I smile because they pay me what I wanted. Everybody goes away happy. It is very important to know your costumer just because you treat every situation differently does not make it racist. Every costumer is different and you adjust pricing to fit the situation.


 You are 100% correct it is not racist by the definition and again I'm sorry I said it.

I bet jacking up a price because of ethnicity is illegal. Just like not hiring, or firing or not renting to a certain ethnicity is illegal


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## PeckPlumbing (Mar 19, 2011)

Oh boy this is turning bad... :hammer:


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

this one always does


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

PeckPlumbing said:


> Oh boy this is turning bad... :hammer:



Personally, I think everyone has done okay so far. Nothing wrong with differing opinions, or holding to them passionatly. 

As long as we can stay a bit to the side of politics, religion, and personal attacks...let the game play on.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

saysflushable said:


> You are 100% correct it is not racist by the definition and again I'm sorry I said it.
> 
> I bet jacking up a price because of ethnicity is illegal. Just like not hiring, or firing or not renting to a certain ethnicity is illegal


When two people negotiate does the starting point even count? I would think the bottom line is the determining factor. If both parties agree to the final number, isn't that a fair business practice? 

Is it any different than lowering the price of a given service to a single mother, or a retired person on a fixed income, while charging the successful lawyer full price?

Is it charitable, or are you sticking it to the successful lawyer? Guess it depends on who you are. 

I would think that one could argue that negotiating is time consuming, therefore adding more to that bill is nothing more than recovering costs.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> When two people negotiate does the starting point even count? I would think the bottom line is the determining factor. If both parties agree to the final number, isn't that a fair business practice?
> 
> Is it any different than lowering the price of a given service to a single mother, or a retired person on a fixed income, while charging the successful lawyer full price?
> 
> ...



The longer I negotiate, the more it will cost somebody.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> The longer I negotiate, the more it will cost somebody.


And that somebody not being you. Lol


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

Phat Cat said:


> When two people negotiate does the starting point even count? I would think the bottom line is the determining factor. If both parties agree to the final number, isn't that a fair business practice?
> 
> Is it any different than lowering the price of a given service to a single mother, or a retired person on a fixed income, while charging the successful lawyer full price?
> 
> ...


 
I just don't want to be the guy on video quoting one nationality 1 price and somebody else a lower price for the same job..........

I can see the interviewer now, why is the quote for mr. patel higher than mr smith for the same job.

Well Mr. reporter mr patel was supposed to negotiate a lower price:laughing:.

Oh! and why is that. 

Goll that interview would sure make for a good thread.:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

saysflushable said:


> I just don't want to be the guy on video quoting one nationality 1 price and somebody else a lower price for the same job..........
> 
> I can see the interviewer now, why is the quote for mr. patel higher than mr smith for the same job.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. I wouldn't want to have to defend that practice, although I don't have a problem with others doing it . Like some others on this thread stated, this is my price, take it or leave it. 

May negotiate on larger jobs, but your average service call? Not worth the headache IMO.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

saysflushable said:


> You are 100% correct it is not racist by the definition and again I'm sorry I said it. I bet jacking up a price because of ethnicity is illegal. Just like not hiring, or firing or not renting to a certain ethnicity is illegal


 no it's not you are free to charge what ever you want. The increase in price is just a correction factor for difficulty. The same thing for hazard ,if you feel there is a likelihood of disease or danger from location you charge more. For instance if you have a sewer call at a resident where drugs are known to be sold you charge more. If you do some work in a lab where they are testing for Ebola you charge more. If you change a faucet for grandma you charge less.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> And that somebody not being you. Lol



Cust: "$9,300!! Is that the best you can do?"

Biz: "Well let's see. Will you pay me $9,301?"

Cust: "Nope!"

Biz: "Then unfortunately it appears $9,300 is the best I can do."


I never went in the hole on a job I didn't get.


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## 4Aces Plumbing (Aug 26, 2011)

Funny thing is if I complained about doing work for a guy with a mullet wearing a white "wife beater" since I hate working on trailer houses, how many wold call me racist? Isn't AMERICA ironic?

Some people are racist, some are just descriptive, I have two guys that own a few gas stations locally. Yep they are frugal and of a Eastern ethnic background. I have a few customers that own a couple Oriental restaurants, they are even considered "family" since my wife is 1/2 Thai. When I show up to do work, I give a price they take it or leave it, even though they always take it I might lose a different customer from ANY ethnic diversity because I don't haggle, that is their right here in America!! In fact it has happened before. The one that always comes to mind is a crazy old "white" lady that told me if I did her 40g Nat gas water heater for $575, I could have the job.. Hey, not discriminating against old white ladies, just being descriptive.. 

The point is we are all Peers, and I respect the hell out of a lot of you that have had different opinions in this thread, you have all kept it fairly mellow, thank you for that! :thumbsup:


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

wyrickmech said:


> no it's not you are free to charge what ever you want. The increase in price is just a correction factor for difficulty. The same thing for hazard ,if you feel there is a likelihood of disease or danger from location you charge more. For instance if you have a sewer call at a resident where drugs are known to be sold you charge more. If you do some work in a lab where they are testing for Ebola you charge more. If you change a faucet for grandma you charge less.


 You might be right. 

But I don't think you are free to charge what ever you want based on race. Just like in Michigan you can be fired for no reason at all, but you can't be fired for the wrong reason, race, religion or sex being the 3 I know of.

I don't think you would win in court, But maybe it isn't illegal anyway. Maybe you can charge different races different prices?

I know in Michigan employment and rent can't be based on race.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

4Aces Plumbing said:


> Funny thing is if I complained about doing work for a guy with a mullet wearing a white "wife beater" since I hate working on trailer houses, how many wold call me racist? Isn't AMERICA ironic?


Agree. Don't see many mobile homes in my area of work but I have worked on them in the past. Should a request to work on one come to me I would decline. So if I (carefully) work for Asian/Middle Eastern Americans but refuse to work for my own race in certain situations (mobile home occupants) am I racist against my own race?

David


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> Cust: "$9,300!! Is that the best you can do?" Biz: "Well let's see. Will you pay me $9,301?" Cust: "Nope!" Biz: "Then unfortunately it appears $9,300 is the best I can do." I never went in the hole on a job I didn't get.


See, one day I would love to be in a financial position where I can actually afford to say this type of stuff to customers.
One day maybe.


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## wookie (Dec 16, 2008)

I will make a confession. I do raise my pricing when dealing with property managers and realtors. PIA surcharge LOL


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

I'm not racist; I hate everyone.

Seriously, I've been burned by every race, tall, short, fat, long hairs, bald, male, female, gay, lesbian, whatever...I hate you all. Pay me and stop whining.


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

What kind of Indian are we talking about lol heirs Indian or Indian that work at most gas stations
lol


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

I don't think people are getting it. Refusing to work on a mobile home or raising your prices to a million dollars an hour to work on a mobile home is legal. refuseing to work or jacking up the price because of the race of the occupant may be illegal.

what happened to the bakery in Colorado that refused to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple. wern;t they forced to make the cake? or face some discrimination case? I think it is the same thing

Nobody is talking about jacking up prices to work at motels people are talking about jacking up prices to work for Indians that own motels.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Just keep your reason to yourself and refuse to do the work. Nothing illegal there. That's where I'm at. If I know I'm likely to get haggled when I get that call I suddenly got booked for the next two weeks already.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

sierra2000 said:


> See, one day I would love to be in a financial position where I can actually afford to say this type of stuff to customers.
> One day maybe.


S2, you already are. It's not money that makes it possible. It's confidence. Confidence in yourself and confidence in knowing there will always be another job to look at for someone else.

There is a time and place for that kind of conversation. It is not for every customer or situation. There are also less in-your-face ways to get the same point across. But there have been times when I've had that conversation, word for word. More so in recent years. Early on, the jobs I was most desperate to get, I usually regretted getting.

Most often the best approach is to simply ask which of the proposed steps in the proposal do they want me to leave out. 

Negotiating implies any number of things that should never be...
I guessed at my price.
I lied about the cost to do a job.
I lied about what I was willing to accept for the job.
Pricing is just a game.
I really don't know what it will take to do the job.

But for me...
I never guess at a price.
I am honest about job costs.
I am serious when I give a price.
My business is my family's wellbeing, not a game.
I know EXACTLY what it takes to get the job done...right.

I wholeheartedly believe those five points to be a must. None of them are possible if I negotiate prices.

When we capitulate on an already given price, we lose all credibility.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

saysflushable said:


> I don't think people are getting it. Refusing to work on a mobile home or raising your prices to a million dollars an hour to work on a mobile home is legal. refuseing to work or jacking up the price because of the race of the occupant may be illegal. what happened to the bakery in Colorado that refused to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple. wern;t they forced to make the cake? or face some discrimination case? I think it is the same thing Nobody is talking about jacking up prices to work at motels people are talking about jacking up prices to work for Indians that own motels.


lol I would have *&^^&*( on that cake and smeared some icing on it.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

wyrickmech said:


> lol I would have *&^^&*( on that cake and smeared some icing on it.


You can bet that cake was never eaten and every part of it was analyzed in a lab for just that...

You know where it would have gone if anything had been detected...


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Redwood said:


> You can bet that cake was never eaten and every part of it was analyzed in a lab for just that... You know where it would have gone if anything had been detected...


ya but the fact is who would have wanted to continue in a invioronent that they were not welcome in. I think they were wrong by forcing the business owners to do something against there will. That's just as bad as somebody wanting a wedding reception at a Muslim based restaurant and demanding bacon and the government forcing them to serve it.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I wish we would never have to learn how to negotiate however with different cultures we must learn to do business that allows you to exist with he different cultures.

Negotiating does not mean you do not believe in your pricing or where you stand. The customer must be willing to give something up in order to gain something. When you get to deduct something form your costs of doing business you have room to negotiate.

If you have coupons, give discounts, or any way the customer can save money you have just negotiated.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> ...If you have coupons, give discounts, or any way the customer can save money you have just negotiated.


I see a difference, although some may not.

Offering a sale price on a particular item or service is enticing, not negotiating.

Dropping a coupon from the Clipper Magazine at the cash register is far different from trying to talk the clerk down just because you think you can get away with it.


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## GrtLksPlbr (Aug 12, 2014)

sierra2000 said:


> You ever walk into a building and see a sign posted that says
> "We Reserve The Right To Refuse Service To Anyone For Any Reason"



You can hang the sign, but you'll likely get sued and lose your business for trying to stick to the practice these days.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

GrtLksPlbr said:


> You can hang the sign, but you'll likely get sued and lose your business for trying to stick to the practice these days.


Maybe true for SOME brick and mortar buildings but as a plumber I'd like to see how far someone gets in court trying to sue me because I refuse to do business with them.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

I have not had this problem yet but would anybody raise there rates because of hazards like possibility of infectious diseases like aids or other fluid transmitted diseases. I would like to see someone sue me for refusing to work on something like that.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

wyrickmech said:


> I have not had this problem yet but would anybody raise there rates because of hazards like possibility of infectious diseases like aids or other fluid transmitted diseases. I would like to see someone sue me for refusing to work on something like that.


I think most of that is already lurking in some of these sewers and drains we snake and jet everyday.


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

sierra2000 said:


> Maybe true for SOME brick and mortar buildings but as a plumber I'd like to see how far someone gets in court trying to sue me because I refuse to do business with them.


 as long as they don't know who sierra2000 is you will be O.K:thumbsup:.


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

Just remember when money is changing hands your freedom to associate with who you want is severly restricted in this Country


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

I work for all sorts of people, just not people that haggle. Haggling is financial harassment and I don't have time for that. Now, you might wish to counter that haggling is "part of their culture", Well, I offer you that arranged marriages, public stoning, and slavery are all cultural, too, but none of you are taking up those mantles.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Richard Hilliard said:


> If you have coupons, give discounts, or any way the customer can save money you have just negotiated.


I agree with Richard here. Most of us have all had discounts or specials at one time or another. That is why people of every Race, ethnic group or cultural group will ask "is that the best you can do?". Through various discounts, some service providers have created schemes to make people think they are getting a better deal. 

The truth is, an honest contractor does not leave enough meat on the bone to be giving stuff away. When people use to ask me "is that the best you can do?" while bidding a custom home or repipe, my answer was always "no, I can do better, which bathroom do you want me to leave out?". I rarely lost a job.

Mark


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

ChrisConnor said:


> I work for all sorts of people, just not people that haggle. Haggling is financial harassment and I don't have time for that. Now, you might wish to counter that haggling is "part of their culture", Well, I offer you that arranged marriages, public stoning, and slavery are all cultural, too, but none of you are taking up those mantles.



Chris, I usually agree with you but here we run up against cultural 'haggling' often. Stoning and arranged marriages, not so much.

David


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

dhal22 said:


> Chris, I usually agree with you but here we run up against cultural 'haggling' often. Stoning and arranged marriages, not so much.
> 
> 
> 
> David



Frequency makes it okay?


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> Chris, I usually agree with you but here we run up against cultural 'haggling' often. Stoning and arranged marriages, not so much. David


I'm was using extreme examples of cultural staples to show you that those cultural traditions will only continue where it is tolerated.

Of course, the the other side of the coin are those flat rate shops that play the game where the give a price and if/when the customer declines, they call the manager who comes up with a lower price. I think it sucks to deal with business like that, too, and that's not cultural.


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

I don't negotiate. Period. End of story. I've actually done quite well with this method. I'm busy and my customer base is one that values professional work before bargain prices.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> Frequency makes it okay?


Either the 2 IPA's or the long day are clouding my comprehension this evening. Not sure about this post.

David


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

dhal22 said:


> Either the 2 IPA's or the long day are clouding my comprehension this evening. Not sure about this post.
> 
> David


If they stoned people more often, would we be expected to grow accustomed to it like we are supposed to become accustomed to haggling?


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> If they stoned people more often, would we be expected to grow accustomed to it like we are supposed to being accustomed to haggling?


IMO, haggling is more trouble than it's worth. If I lived in an area where the majority of my customers haggled, I would adapt and play the game. But I don't, so the few that do come along play the game my way, or we don't play 

House rules.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

:laughing:
When I buy a house, car, or truck I pay the asking price....
:laughing:

Haggling or negotiating a price, would be so rude....:whistling2:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Redwood said:


> When I buy a house, car, or truck I pay the asking price....


I don't sell cars, trucks, or houses. 

I sell expertise for a certain fee. Pay the fee, or move along.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Redwood said:


> :laughing:
> When I buy a house, car, or truck I pay the asking price....
> :laughing:
> 
> Haggling or negotiating a price, would be so rude....:whistling2:


Big difference in big ticket item vs a service call.

When it is a larger contract job, customer is told up front that we are giving them our best price. If it is too much, we can negotiate what to take out of the job to get it in line with their budget.

Red, I think you are just trying to stir the pot. Lol


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## Nathan901 (Feb 11, 2012)

Not to derail the morales behind the public stoning debate, but I actually just left an estimate for a indian fellow. 

Brand new house, I'd say about a 2 or 3 mil home. Audi and porches in the garage. 

Determined that the stubs for the water heater were backwards, gave him a reasonable quote to switch it around( under 300 dollars). 
Hit me with- "ohhhh....that's too much. Joo com und do this for me this weekend, I pay you"


Priceless.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

I called my Indian hotel customer about a two rooms for two days hoping to get a discount. Both rooms are comp'ed....costs me nothing. The haggling goes both ways.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

ChrisConnor said:


> I work for all sorts of people, just not people that haggle. Haggling is financial harassment and I don't have time for that. Now, you might wish to counter that haggling is "part of their culture", Well, I offer you that arranged marriages, public stoning, and slavery are all cultural, too, but none of you are taking up those mantles.



Someone has already thrown this into this conversation a plumbing service call is a bit different than marriage or a dowry. However I am sure we can arrange a stoning if you would like. A little negotiating is no where even close to some of the trash talking going on in this thread and that is a fact jack.

Quite a few owners are slaves to their company many more are slaves to money. Many more employees are slaves to their owners who pay so little that they live hand to mouth due to charging 70 dollars an hour and cannot afford to pay the help.

I am getting a kick out of reading all this. This thread actually is a fantastic thread to show us (plumbers) why customers use home depot, Lowes to buy cheaper products and use unqualified personnel to install. 

We do not understand our customers and refuse to adapt, we say what the hell you adapt to me.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I have one huge question of the day. If you already know that you do not sell many Middle Easterners due to the culture and negotiating why do you still schedule the job expecting different results? If you have a difficult time getting them to accept your price without movement why put yourself through that for a few hundred dollars?

The quote I am thinking of is from War Games.” It is better to not play the game” Why get upset when you already know the outcome?


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Someone has already thrown this into this conversation a plumbing service call is a bit different than marriage or a dowry. However I am sure we can arrange a stoning if you would like. A little negotiating is no where even close to some of the trash talking going on in this thread and that is a fact jack.
> 
> Quite a few owners are slaves to their company many more are slaves to money. Many more employees are slaves to their owners who pay so little that they live hand to mouth due to charging 70 dollars an hour and cannot afford to pay the help.
> 
> ...



I'll tell you what Richard. You come to New York and take all the bargain hunters. I'll continue to build a customer base that values workmanship over a discount. I'll continue to make an excellent living and we'll both be happy.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

everyone wants a discount, me included. my favorite is when they (not race specific) want to pay with cash and want a 20% discount. then they get pissed when i wont come down that much. i guess i should work to break even.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Plumber said:


> I called my Indian hotel customer about a two rooms for two days hoping to get a discount. Both rooms are comp'ed....costs me nothing. The haggling goes both ways.


Unbelievable.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> everyone wants a discount, me included. my favorite is when they (not race specific) want to pay with cash and want a 20% discount. then they get pissed when i wont come down that much. i guess i should work to break even.


Usually they get that from the techs who are stealing from the company, but will call the company when there's a warranty issue.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Drain Pro said:


> I'll tell you what Richard. You come to New York and take all the bargain hunters. I'll continue to build a customer base that values workmanship over a discount. I'll continue to make an excellent living and we'll both be happy.


Drain pro I will challenge your statement. Are you seriously telling me that EVERY customer you service is a perfect customer and does/will pay your price every time? if you say yes I will call you what you are. 

I went to bid a commercial water heater for a hotel. I should pass this heater up because I know I am going to negotiate? Knowing that I was going to negotiate and understanding leverage I started out at 26,000.00. This was a Thursday and Monday was a holiday. Every plumber was at 12 to 15 grand . I eventually negotiated at 20 grand, we picked up the heater 4 hours away and did the job Saturday morning. My total cost for the job was 7 grand for labor and materials. I will negotiate all day long for money like that while other plumbers give away what they can do because they do not realize what it is they can do.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

sierra2000 said:


> See, one day I would love to be in a financial position where I can actually afford to say this type of stuff to customers.
> One day maybe.


Yes that's the kicker right there,ones like you and me so DESPARETLY need each and every little job there is that we probably would allow ourselves to lower the price,and that is sad


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Plumber said:


> I'm not racist; I hate everyone.
> 
> Seriously, I've been burned by every race, tall, short, fat, long hairs, bald, male, female, gay, lesbian, whatever...I hate you all. Pay me and stop whining.


Hell yea f*** them all:furious: Lolololo


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Redwood said:


> :laughing:
> When I buy a house, car, or truck I pay the asking price....
> :laughing:
> 
> Haggling or negotiating a price, would be so rude....:whistling2:


Good point:thumbup:


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## IAplumber (Mar 28, 2010)

When I give the bill and they want to haggle I tell them I have to make a living just like they do. I have to put food on the table just like them. If I give you a break I'm essentially take food out of my families mouth.
NO DISCOUNT NEVER!


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Drain Pro said:


> I'll tell you what Richard. You come to New York and take all the bargain hunters. I'll continue to build a customer base that values workmanship over a discount. I'll continue to make an excellent living and we'll both be happy.


yea i agree with you here,richard must have so much money that it doesnt matter whether or not he gets haggled,and he is just so much smarter than all the rest of us here that i just dont know how we have all made it this far without him telling us who,what,where,when,how,and why.seems we are all just a bunch of dumbazzes except him,hes got it all figured out,man if i was that smart i sure as hell wouldnt be doing this nasty azz plumbing work:laughing:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

sparky said:


> yea i agree with you here,richard must have so much money that it doesnt matter whether or not he gets haggled,and he is just so much smarter than all the rest of us here that i just dont know how we have all made it this far without him telling us who,what,where,when,how,and why.seems we are all just a bunch of dumbazzes except him,hes got it all figured out,man if i was that smart i sure as hell wouldnt be doing this nasty azz plumbing work:laughing:


You have grossly mischaracterized the intent and severely underestimated the knowledge, expertise, and real world experience of Mr. Hilliard.

Besides that, it is not polite to bite the hand that is feeding you...for free.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

sparky said:


> yea i agree with you here,richard must have so much money that it doesnt matter whether or not he gets haggled,and he is just so much smarter than all the rest of us here that i just dont know how we have all made it this far without him telling us who,what,where,when,how,and why.seems we are all just a bunch of dumbazzes except him,hes got it all figured out,man if i was that smart i sure as hell wouldnt be doing this nasty azz plumbing work:laughing:


That is what you have got out of this thread and other threads? 

Not smarter ,I have been lucky enough to listen to others who have been through it and have passed their information to me. Now I am passing this information to others in order for them not to have to travel down that road of hard knocks to learn.

Sparky some people never learn as they are stuck in I've always done it this way. Please do not use the word we and try to include others in this forum with your difficulty to accept. It is not a we it is a you/I.

Thank you for thinking I have it all figured out. I wish I had but it changes daily and every day is a constant learning day. I must let you know, I no longer work in the field. I do visit clients, provide solutions ,sell jobs and work with people that others may think are difficult customers.

I wish I had more money put away for my wife and kids. This is why I am trying to give the information I have away to different people so that they can put enough money away for their future. I do not mind telling you since I have sold 1 business and have invested in a retirement program, my wife will be taken care of and modestly. I am extremely happy and proud of this fact .I work for an owner that provided this service for us and our families. I am more proud that I took advantage of the opportunities that were presented to me to become better at what I do . This covers my plumbing ability , being in the plumbing profession since 1972 and then trying to master the skill and will of sales and implementing a strategy for success. By all means keep doing what you do if you are happy with the returns and the hours you must work . If you're happy being a slave to your business why change? Move along nothing more to see here.

I do not feel superior to any person. No one person is more important than any other person. What I do feel is pity and sorrow there are some people who do not care enough about themselves or their family to want to do better for themselves or their family or make a difference in other peoples lives. Isn't that our purpose as people? I am extremely grateful to be more than just a plumber. I am more grateful for the number of people who wanted me to succeed and have been there since I have been a teen.

Thanks for having me reflect back and taking notice of how lucky I have been in the past.


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

What a ridiculous thread, racism is alive and well. Whether anyone noticed a plumber from India just posted an introduction this month. I am sure he will be quick to post if he has had a chance to read how his culture has been portrayed.


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

They did it to themselves.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

tim666 said:


> What a ridiculous thread, racism is alive and well. Whether anyone noticed a plumber from India just posted an introduction this month. I am sure he will be quick to post if he has had a chance to read how his culture has been portrayed.


Travel a bit and you'll see racism against whites is very alive and very evil. 

White males (counting northern euro-types only) comprise 20% of America and far less globally.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

There is a bunch of ways of dealing with difficult costumers and yes the best way is to mimic there stance on the issue. I really don't see it as racism that requires hatred in you towards them. I see it as bridging the communication gap. If they want to haggle then the price starts hi to give you room to do so. You just need to know your costumer. And yes the hotel Indians love to haggle so you just have to play it smart.


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Drain pro I will challenge your statement. Are you seriously telling me that EVERY customer you service is a perfect customer and does/will pay your price every time? if you say yes I will call you what you are.
> 
> I went to bid a commercial water heater for a hotel. I should pass this heater up because I know I am going to negotiate? Knowing that I was going to negotiate and understanding leverage I started out at 26,000.00. This was a Thursday and Monday was a holiday. Every plumber was at 12 to 15 grand . I eventually negotiated at 20 grand, we picked up the heater 4 hours away and did the job Saturday morning. My total cost for the job was 7 grand for labor and materials. I will negotiate all day long for money like that while other plumbers give away what they can do because they do not realize what it is they can do.



The answer is simply yes. If they're not willing to pay my price then I politely suggest that they move on. I've just completed my second full year in business and I've already grossed far more at this point than I did for the entire 2013 year (which also was a very good year). I'm constantly getting busier and my first full time employee starts on Monday. I predict I'll be adding a third truck by this time next year. So it appears as if my methods are working for me as I'm sure yours work for you. I took offense to the tone in your post when you inferred that some of us here don't understand our customer base, simply because we refuse to negotiate with people. I'm running a drain company, not a flea market. No negotiating here, just professional work for a price that's fair to me and the customer. The tone of your post was a bit condescending. I apologize if I mistook your intention.


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

Another point I'd like to make is to stress the importance of a loyal customer base. Sure you could sell your soul and negotiate down with every bargain hunter that calls you. The thing is, it's like building your business on a glass floor; a bargain hunter will leave you for the first guy that's a nickle cheaper. On the other hand, a customer who values quality work is far more inclined to stay with you over the long haul. They appreciate good work and are willing to pay a mutually fair rate. That's building your business on a solid foundation. So don't be short sided in business. Sure that money looks good today but always make the long haul your priority. Don't sell yourself short for a customer who only values a bargain, they'll always leave you in the end.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plbgbiz said:


> You have grossly mischaracterized the intent and severely underestimated the knowledge, expertise, and real world experience of Mr. Hilliard.
> 
> Besides that, it is not polite to bite the hand that is feeding you...for free.


He's not feeding me,my back braking work is feeding me,and he's got good ideas although it is a different story out in the real world,most of the posters here have either inherited a plbing business from their family or they have inherited money from family, or they married money,meaning they can pick and choose what they do and don't have to crawl under 1978 model trailers with dead rats laying on the ground,they can just pass on those type of calls,also most here live or serve large population areas and don't have a clue about tight azz people surviving on Medicaid and can't afford a 500.00 flat rate to put a sink in.he just comes off that he knows it all and we are all under him,you may be that way to biz I don't know,nobody ever gave me nothing


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

sparky said:


> He's not feeding me,my back braking work is feeding me,and he's got good ideas although it is a different story out in the real world,most of the posters here have either inherited a plbing business from their family or they have inherited money from family, or they married money,meaning they can pick and choose what they do and don't have to crawl under 1978 model trailers with dead rats laying on the ground,they can just pass on those type of calls,also most here live or serve large population areas and don't have a clue about tight azz people surviving on Medicaid and can't afford a 500.00 flat rate to put a sink in.he just comes off that he knows it all and we are all under him,you may be that way to biz I don't know,nobody ever gave me nothing



Geez Sparky, take a step back. What makes you think you're the only one crawling on your belly to make a living? You are no more a hard working boot-strap kind of guy than anyone else here. Everyone in this trade has their demons to fight. Plumbing and the business of plumbing ain't easy for anybody. That's why it's called work.

And no, Mr. Hilliard is not literally feeding you or your family. He is feeding you knowledge that if applied, will help you do a better job of it yourself. I don't recall anyone saying you should charge unfair prices or unsellable prices. 

Do I know it all? Not by a long shot. But I do know a lot more now, than before I became acquainted with Richard Hilliard. And that goes for a lot of people I have met. 

You do not have to sell your soul or become a disciple, to learn from someone willing to share their experience.


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

Maybe I am wrong but is this forum not for plumbers worldwide. The earlier posts on this forum would really turn away non Americans from wanting to join. I think the thread title should just be changed to negotiating. There is more to racism than black and white, if you don't think they are racist, substitute the word Indian for black and see how horrible these sound to the rest of the world.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

tim666 said:


> Maybe I am wrong but is this forum not for plumbers worldwide. The earlier posts on this forum would really turn away non Americans from wanting to join. I think the thread title should just be changed to negotiating. There is more to racism than black and white, if you don't think they are racist, substitute the word Indian for black and see how horrible these sound to the rest of the world.


It does have a tad bit of an ugly side....:laughing:
Most can't see it from their own porches...
You don't want to see the P&R Section where it all oozes out....


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Redwood said:


> It does have a tad bit of an ugly side....:laughing:
> 
> Most can't see it from their own porches...
> 
> You don't want to see the P&R Section where it all oozes out....


Oozes? 

It flows like milk and honey. :laughing:


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Drain Pro said:


> Another point I'd like to make is to stress the importance of a loyal customer base. Sure you could sell your soul and negotiate down with every bargain hunter that calls you. The thing is, it's like building your business on a glass floor; a bargain hunter will leave you for the first guy that's a nickle cheaper. On the other hand, a customer who values quality work is far more inclined to stay with you over the long haul. They appreciate good work and are willing to pay a mutually fair rate. That's building your business on a solid foundation. So don't be short sided in business. Sure that money looks good today but always make the long haul your priority. Don't sell yourself short for a customer who only values a bargain, they'll always leave you in the end.


 

You're talking customer base. My question was not answered you're telling us every customer has been happy to pay your price and none have turned you down? However if you give discounts or have coupons you negotiate. I know a ton of plumbers around the planet and I do not know one plumber that does not have a coupons or one that has not given a discount ever.

Please show me where I have said to sell your soul or give away your product and services.In fact if you have ever listened to what I have said or tried to convey you will see that I insist that you discover your prime customer ( loyal in most case) and focus on that group of people.

Now there are plenty of cheap plumbers that have loyal customers due to being cheap. Loyal really does not place a firm definition of your best customer.

short sighted is going to a customers home and leaving with nothing for your time or effort.

I do not mind giving money off to a customer as long as they are willing to give something up. I am willing to drop to 300 dollars and hour and give you a 60 day warranty instead of my normal rate and a years warranty.

I am willing to work for 250 dollars an hour and give my customer NO warranty. Just giving away product and service is not negotiating
Notice Plumbers.

The person I do this for is not a loyal prime customer , however I would rather come out of the job with more than a service call or nothing at all. This person will have an asterisk on our computer to prevent us from making the same mistake if they call us back again.

We all should have a list that is numbered to the type customer we wil service. 1 being the person we just discussed and 5 being the person that pays your full price and is a cheerleader and a service agreement holder.
#4 good customers that use 25-50 dollar coupon
#3 may be relatives and friends
#2 may be church /non profits


By the way your scheduling should abide by this list


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

sparky said:


> He's not feeding me,my back braking work is feeding me,and he's got good ideas although it is a different story out in the real world,most of the posters here have either inherited a plbing business from their family or they have inherited money from family, or they married money,meaning they can pick and choose what they do and don't have to crawl under 1978 model trailers with dead rats laying on the ground,they can just pass on those type of calls,also most here live or serve large population areas and don't have a clue about tight azz people surviving on Medicaid and can't afford a 500.00 flat rate to put a sink in.he just comes off that he knows it all and we are all under him,you may be that way to biz I don't know,nobody ever gave me nothing


 
Many of you think that I am not in the real-world. The stuff I talk about is the stuff I do on a daily basis for our customers and our plumbers. I work with customers daily. I have worked in Ohio, Indiana, Pa, West Virginian. Florida, and Oneonta New York. It has been effective in each of these states and with all types of people from highly educated to the insanely poor. In Ohio my community had 2500 people ,I went to school with 99 Freshman and by the time we were seniors we were down to about 80. I have lived in an area with more than a million people. 

I've crawled under trailers and crawl spaces with fecal matter to replace broken cast iron building drains, I've been in 14 foot holes replacing main water stops , been inside grease traps for restaurants. 


Sparky you talk as if no one else has a heart ,your sadly mistaken. I will donate my time and our company will donate materials to people who are less fortunate. Most people in a forum like this become very literal and only see black and white and forget that there is a lot of gray areas. Your assumption of me is your perception of yourself and lack of confidence in yourself. Otherwise you would know that every person is on equal ground.
Again I would like you to keep your words to yourself and not try to place your words and thoughts on me. They are not the same.

As far as receiving an education I say research a lot. Put together a plan that fits you. A lot f what I do has come from so many people it is absurd. It started out with Zig Ziglar, Tom Hopkins, Brian Tracey, Spin selling, A little Jim Abramns,Stephen Shiftman,Frank Blau,Skip Anderson, Joe Cirsara,Charlie Greer, John Maxwell, selling to VITO,consulting selling,and so much more Forgive some of the spelling on some names . The point is read, read, read, and read some more. Then design a strategy that will enhance your ability.

What happens you no longer will try to blame others success as being crooks and dishonest but start to define your own success. You will not have to show people what other don't do for you to get the job. You wil show people what you do and forget about the others.


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

Richard Hilliard said:


> You're talking customer base. My question was not answered you're telling us every customer has been happy to pay your price and none have turned you down? However if you give discounts or have coupons you negotiate. I know a ton of plumbers around the planet and I do not know one plumber that does not have a coupons or one that has not given a discount ever.
> 
> Please show me where I have said to sell your soul or give away your product and services.In fact if you have ever listened to what I have said or tried to convey you will see that I insist that you discover your prime customer ( loyal in most case) and focus on that group of people.
> 
> ...



You and I definitely have very different ideas when it comes to running a business. One is not necessarily better than the other, just different. I don't agree with most of your post. Please don't take this personally, but you sound like a guy who gives business seminars and really don't understand how things work in practicality. But if you've been successful with your methods, I stand corrected. However, my methods work for me so I'm not apt to changing them.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

I do not push the issue. If they don't like the price, me, the company, or whatever, I'll just sail on down the road. No coupons, no lowering prices.

I had two like that this week for smaller jobs for people---white people who were house flipping/getting ready to rent---and I saw them coming long way away. I gave my price, kept the smart ass remarks to the minimum and got out. 

I did not like them. So I did not work for them.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Plumber said:


> I do not push the issue. If they don't like the price, me, the company, or whatever, I'll just sail on down the road. No coupons, no lowering prices. I had two like that this week for smaller jobs for people---white people who were house flipping/getting ready to rent---and I saw them coming long way away. I gave my price, kept the smart ass remarks to the minimum and got out. I did not like them. So I did not work for them.


When you have plenty of work lined up and don't want to be a super sales converter this is what I prefer. Just don't work for them for whatever reason you have and move on to the next call.
I had one guy diagnose his water heater problem and the water heater company told him to go to lowes to pick up the part. He was referred to me by someone and the first thing he says after explaining the situation was, so, do you want to make this two trips or one? Meaning me go to lowes and pick up the part and then come put it in or deliver it if he didn't like the price. One trip of course. I gave him a quote of $248 to put on the part and he said ok he'll call me when he picks it up. 
Two days later he calls and said you were highly recommended by a friend so I want you to put it in but can you do it for $178 because this company said they'll do it for this price and on a Saturday.
HECK NO! Told him no hard feelings and I can't do it for any less than I quoted him. 
Customers like that I prefer not to deal with cause any future work will be along those lines.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Redwood said:


> It does have a tad bit of an ugly side....:laughing: Most can't see it from their own porches... You don't want to see the P&R Section where it all oozes out....


never seen the P&R section. Where is it?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Plumber said:


> I do not push the issue. *If they don't like the price, me, the company, or whatever, I'll just sail on down the road. No coupons, no lowering prices.*
> 
> I had two like that this week for smaller jobs for people---white people who were house flipping/getting ready to rent---and I saw them coming long way away. I gave my price, kept the smart ass remarks to the minimum and got out.
> 
> I did not like them. So I did not work for them.


That's not what you were saying here....
Advocating a hack repair because the customer couldn't afford it done correctly... :whistling2:



Master Mark said:


> I am gonna take some pics of the next mess I stumble upon and post them here so all the "arm chair quarterbacks " can debate on how to estimate and complete one of these nightmares we run across...





Plumber said:


> Iknowright. I wonder where some of these posters work. Sure as hell, they ain't in service and sure ain't in my part of town.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Drain Pro said:


> You and I definitely have very different ideas when it comes to running a business. One is not necessarily better than the other, just different. I don't agree with most of your post. Please don't take this personally, but you sound like a guy who gives business seminars and really don't understand how things work in practicality. But if you've been successful with your methods, I stand corrected. However, my methods work for me so I'm not apt to changing them.



Drain Pro I agree with you there are many ways to run a successful business. Business people need to pick one and stick to it and get committed.I have said many times if you're happy with what you're getting why change, it makes no sense to do things differently. My next question is if anyone is not in need of help or a change why read or get involved in threads like this without giving positive advice versus destructive negative advice that has no substance?

It is fine to disagree however disagree with it and stop assuming that there are outside forces and agendas by the person you disagree with to fulfill. When anyone does that they lose credibility without facts to back their statements up. I know sometimes it is difficult to debate facts without attacking character of another person. If you're debating character then there is no problem with the substance.I get confused if the problem is with the message or with the person writing .

I do not agree with you because I don't think it is a good business practice is a horrible reason to disagree. Please state the facts of your disagreement and not opinion and allow others to implement the strategy that you employ to help them grow their business.If it that much better I would be happy to change what we are doing for something better that will increase our earning ptoential and grow our business. That is why I am here. When I disagree with people I will place a fact finding reason for my disagreement . In some cases I have found a better way to accomplish the same thing through others.



Here is what is wrong with your statement.I have never given a business seminar, I have talked/webinars with people in the construction service trades concerning best practices for sales in the trades.

Ultimately it is you the business owner that must choose a rock solid business strategy that has the bets chance to increase your earning potential. Choose wisely and if you learned from your old employer you may want to discover a different way to run your business.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> Oozes?
> 
> It flows like milk and honey. :laughing:


More like Brown 25... :laughing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRPQSxp25z4


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

wyrickmech said:


> never seen the P&R section. Where is it?


Trust Me... You don't want to go there...:no:
It will rot your brain....


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Trust Me... You don't want to go there...:no:
> It will rot your brain....


If you go there and skip over Redwoods posts and only read mine you will think it is the writings of a great sage, handing down wisdom to be carried forth for the improvement and benefit of mankind for all eternity:thumbup:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

saysflushable said:


> If you go there and skip over Redwoods posts and only read mine you will think it is the writings of a great sage, handing down wisdom to be carried forth for the improvement and benefit of mankind for all eternity:thumbup:



That sounds so flushable. :laughing: :jester:


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