# Methanol



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Anyone use it as an anti-freeze. A job I am looking at is spec'd 15% methanol in a geo-thermal loop.

How are you guys pumping it into the system? I'm guessing an air-driven diaphram pump. Due to flammability. ???

I don't think it's legal to feed make-up water to the system even through an RPZ. As far as I know methanol is toxic or deadly. Am I wrong???

Propelyne glycol is $14,000 and methanol is $4,000 for the same amount:yes:


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> Anyone use it as an anti-freeze. A job I am looking at is spec'd 15% methanol in a geo-thermal loop.
> 
> How are you guys pumping it into the system? I'm guessing an air-driven diaphram pump. Due to flammability. ???
> 
> ...


I don't know that it is all that much more toxic than diesel, hell of a lot more flammable though, we use it for making Nitro Methane for my buddy'stop fuel funny car. I would think you would have to use a break tank with a Keckley valve set up to feed domestic water into the system.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

If the HDPE fails I would rather have sugar water in the aquifer than methanol.

The heat transfer properties are very similar on 15% methanol and 25% propelyne glycol.

I'm hoping having to have a break tank changes the architects mind on the methanol. He thought I would jut feed the methanol filled system with an RPZ:no: "We have done it like that all over the state":no:


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

Glycol all the way.

BEWARE Methanol burns very clean. You will be on fire and never see the flames.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

uaplumber said:


> Glycol all the way.
> 
> BEWARE Methanol burns very clean. You will be on fire and never see the flames.


Nitro Methane is cool though, it you can puor it on the ground at throw a match in it and it won't light, but hit the puddle with a hammer and it can blow your arm off.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Nitro Methane is cool though, it you can puor it on the ground at throw a match in it and it won't light, but hit the puddle with a hammer and it can blow your arm off.


That could bring new meaning to the phrase "I got hammered on alchohol last night"


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

Ah MAN!!!! Now I gotta get some!:thumbsup:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

"Alberta man loses arm and hammer while experimenting with nitro methane" read more on page 6.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

The Nitro in Nitro Methane is Nitro Glycerine, the stuff they make dynamite out of, there is a reason top fuel drag cars make 8,000 HP.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Actually both methanol and nitro-methane are slow burning compared to gasoline. It is the longer burn that gives them the increase in power over gasoline.

If you check the timing of your car or trucks gasoline engine the spark probably occurs somewhere between 8 and 16 degrees before top dead center (TDC). By the time the piston reaches TDC the fire is lit and the burn is now ready to start the power stroke.

Now lets have a look at the nitro-burning motor... Those of you that have watched drag races will recall seeing a crew member with a plastic squeeze bottle spraying something ito the butterflies of the air scoop when they go to fire the motor. The motor will not start on nitro alone. They need to spray in something they can start the motor on. You hear the difference when the injectors start pumping the nitro.





 
The nitro engines have a spark about 70 degrees before TDC and the fuel is still burning for about 10 feet after it leaves the exhaust pipe. It is this long burn that gives it the tremendous power. 8,000 + horsepower out of a little 500 cu. in. hemi isn't too shabby.





 
Interestingly enough todays fuel cars are limited to how much nitromethane they are allowed to have mixed in their fuel. In an effort to prevent engine explosions NHRA limited the percentage of nitromethane to 85% which was later raised to 90% in 2008. 

The first car to run with 100% nitromethane was Raymond Beadle in the Blue Max funny car... There is a blast from the past!





 
Aside from being a little flammable and poisonous whats the problem with methanol?
http://www.biodieselgear.com/documentation/methanol.htm


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's more poisonous than diesel. I was told that a thimble full is all that is needed to make you go blind permanently. I don't know if it's true as I have yet to test it out.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Protech said:


> Actually, I'm pretty sure it's more poisonous than diesel. I was told that a thimble full is all that is needed to make you go blind permanently. I don't know if it's true as I have yet to test it out.


Yes. for some reason methanol attacks the optic nerve. So you can see why I'm a little nervous about the feed water to the system. I don't want it to be a school for the blind after the job is complete.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Maybe it's not that bad. I just found this: "Toxicity varies but it is excepted that 30ml of a 40% solution is considered the minimal lethal dose."


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Couldn't you just mix it first and then pump it? It won't burn as a 15% mix.



ILPlumber said:


> Anyone use it as an anti-freeze. A job I am looking at is spec'd 15% methanol in a geo-thermal loop.
> 
> How are you guys pumping it into the system? I'm guessing an air-driven diaphram pump. Due to flammability. ???
> 
> ...


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Mixing it would be more dangerous than shooting it in and adding water as I go. 

Air-driven explosion proof pump = $600 I didn't think that was too bad. It's gotta pump 46 barrels of methanol.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

How do you figure it's more dangerous mixing it? Once it's mixed with water it's not flammable.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I have this picture in my head of a journeyman standing over a big open container with a canoe paddle mixing this stuff. 

I don't really want to mix 8000 gallons of mixture and THEN put it in the system.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> I have this picture in my head of a journeyman standing over a big open container with a canoe paddle mixing this stuff.
> 
> I don't really want to mix 8000 gallons of mixture and THEN put it in the system.


Have him use a Hole Hawg with a mud paddle bit, but make sure it's a journeyman that can be spared.

Protech knows way more than we do, just ask him.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I'm sorry you feel threatened KTS but we are just talking. I'm not trying to tell the man how to do his job. This is a plumbing forum and we come here to talk about plumbing.

I really don't see what the big deal is with the methyl alcohol. I used the stuff all the time to make fire works. If you just pour your water into a container first and then add the alcohol there isn't much chance of fire. You have no greater chance of lighting the alcohol when pouring it into the water than you do pumping it into the system.

As far as mixing goes, I wouldn't think that you would need to mix it to thoroughly. Just enough to kill its ability to light. Say a 40% mixture then add water.

Killer, why don't you endow us all with a taste of your infinite knowledge and say why it won't work instead of just talking crap.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

This thread will self destruct in 5,4,3,2, Oh wait a minute! It already did:laughing:

Oh well. I think it had ran it's course anyway:thumbup: 

For those curious I will be mixing it in the system.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech, have you ever tried mixing pure Glycol with water? Doing it manually would take tens of hours.

The same applies to Methanol, the only difference is the flashpoint of the product, both mix far better under pressure.

But I am sure that this info is wasted on someone that has knowledge none of the rest of us posess, like yourself.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Please explain why you can't just premix it down to a 40% solution and just pump it in. After it's pumped in it will mix it self when you add the remaining water.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I used to smoke Kools and because they were menthanol:jester:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

jjbex said:


> I used to smoke Kools and because they were menthanol:jester:


There is nothing Kooler


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Shouldn't we be in bed? Good luck with the job.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Hey Jeff,
I hope to get back up around Joliet one of these years. This job I will be pulling guys from 149 Savoy. I miss all the smooth pavement around chicawgo:thumbup: We don't have any of that down here.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Propylene Glycol costs us 21$/ gallon. No worries with it though, when it comes to easing peoples minds. The largest system we have is pumped in with an automatic feed tank. It's a 70 gallon tank that is pre mixed and the pump is on a pressure switch that feeds when the pressure drops low enough.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

methonal $274 for 55 gallons. I think you see why I went with methanol:laughing:


the cost difference between propelyne glycol and methanol would have put me out of the job:yes:


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Yeah, I can see that. How many gal did you need?


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

airgap said:


> Yeah, I can see that. How many gal did you need?


A bit less than 23 barrels per system. So around 46 barrels.

There are 2 seperate systems. One @ high school. One @ grade school.

I wish I could scan in blueprints. The ME did a good job on this set. He even gave me written credit for my ideas for changes in teh addendums:thumbsup:


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

:thumbsup:


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Savoy is where I kicked ass on the state test. Good times.


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