# Under sink recirculation systems



## Prscptn Plmbng

I have a customer that has a tankless and wants a under counter recirculation pump. I have been a devoted grundfos installer but the closest the get to under the counter are their comfort systems, but the pump mounts on the water heater and are controlled with a timer.... installing that on a tankless would kill it... 

I have no idea what tankless he has yet.

The question is which manufacture has the beret better under sink system ?

Prescription Plumbing Inc 
P.O.Box 6378 
Oceanside, CA 92502


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## GREENPLUM

why not use a Taco, these systems work well for me

*D'MAND® System 

**Product > Water Circulation Pumps & Circulators > Wet Rotor Circulators > D'MAND® System *


The Taco D’MAND System is the only recirculating system that operates 24 hours to provide hot water “on demand” at the same time it saves water, energy and money. 

The D’MAND System is a small, silent pump that you attach to the hot and cold water lines in the cabinet under the most remote kitchen or bath fixture in the home. When the D’MAND System is activated, the cool water you normally let run down the drain is recirculated back to the water heater through the cold water line.

On demand, the pump circulates hot water from the water heater and returns the cooled water back through the cold water line. When the hot water arrives at the faucet, the D’MAND System’s patented heat sensor and control board shut off the pump to prevent pumping excess hot water into the cold water line. 



Runs Only When Activated by the User
Automatically Senses When Water is Hot Enough.
Saves Water, Energy and Money
Saves Construction Costs—No new return line needed and no need to drain the system.
Simple Installation

*click image for larger view* 
*click image for larger view* 

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-140.pdf


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

Yes


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## Prscptn Plmbng

GREENPLUM said:


> why not use a Taco, these systems work well for me
> 
> D'MAND® System
> 
> Product > Water Circulation Pumps & Circulators > Wet Rotor Circulators > D'MAND® System
> 
> The Taco D’MAND System is the only recirculating system that operates 24 hours to provide hot water “on demand” at the same time it saves water, energy and money.
> 
> The D’MAND System is a small, silent pump that you attach to the hot and cold water lines in the cabinet under the most remote kitchen or bath fixture in the home. When the D’MAND System is activated, the cool water you normally let run down the drain is recirculated back to the water heater through the cold water line.
> 
> On demand, the pump circulates hot water from the water heater and returns the cooled water back through the cold water line. When the hot water arrives at the faucet, the D’MAND System’s patented heat sensor and control board shut off the pump to prevent pumping excess hot water into the cold water line.
> 
> 
> [*]Runs Only When Activated by the User
> [*]Automatically Senses When Water is Hot Enough.
> [*]Saves Water, Energy and Money
> [*]Saves Construction Costs—No new return line needed and no need to drain the system.
> [*]Simple Installation
> 
> http://www.taco-hvac.com/images/DMand_ReCirc-Schematic_lg.pdf
> click image for larger view http://www.taco-hvac.com/images/DMandSchematic2_lg.pdf
> click image for larger view
> 
> http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-140.pdf


this is the type of system I'm looking for just looking to find which manufactures are the best

Prescription Plumbing Inc 
P.O.Box 6378 
Oceanside, CA 92502


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## Catlin987987

I am not a fan of the Taco's, I have installed the grunfos comfort system a few times without anycall backs expect to say they work.


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## Widdershins

Catlin987987 said:


> I am not a fan of the Taco's, I have installed the grunfos comfort system a few times without anycall backs expect to say they work.


The problem is, the Comfort System will not work with a tankless system, whereas the Taco D'Mand system will.


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## Prscptn Plmbng

Catlin987987 said:


> I am not a fan of the Taco's, I have installed the grunfos comfort system a few times without anycall backs expect to say they work.


 I used to only like the go grundfos comfort system, but thru the years of installing them, it's always been a challenge to set the timer for retired people with their habits. It also it's hard with large families that use water at odd changing times each day. With this type of system you should not have it running 24/7 or the cold side will warm up... 

The push button system has been great, since my first post I've now installed about 10 and all customers have been praising them.

Prescription Plumbing Inc 
P.O.Box 6378 
Oceanside, CA 92502


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## beachplumber

Ther is also a system with wireless sensors. Tje rinnai rep told me about. I don,t have the specifics.

I am late getting to the office, i wiil look into it later


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## plbgbiz

Might want to mention to the customer the increase in their utility expenses as well.

A retro fitted system won't have any insulated lines.


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## stillaround

Also there will be tepid cold water at times....


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## 504Plumber

Am I wrong to assume you can use a comfort system with a small electric heater as a holding tank? I've installed a few comfort systems but am not a fan.


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## Prscptn Plmbng

beachplumber said:


> Ther is also a system with wireless sensors. Tje rinnai rep told me about. I don,t have the specifics.
> 
> I am late getting to the office, i wiil look into it later


The taco demand system has an optional sensor but then it turns on even when your there for the toilet... The better option is the wireless switch for it, it looks like a light switch, just mount it next to the bath light and its eassy...  The wireless remote also works great for large houses with multipe bathrooms on same line pump is on...


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## Prscptn Plmbng

plbgbiz said:


> Might want to mention to the customer the increase in their utility expenses as well.
> 
> A retro fitted system won't have any insulated lines.


The amount of electricity during the 15-20 seconds its actually on will definitely be out weighed be the huge amount of water and sewer fees that will be saved...


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## Redwood

504Plumber said:


> Am I wrong to assume you can use a comfort system with a small electric heater as a holding tank? I've installed a few comfort systems but am not a fan.


No you aren't wrong...

With Tankless it is always best to check with what the manufacturer recommends...


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## plbgbiz

Prscptn Plmbng said:


> The amount of electricity during the 15-20 seconds its actually on will definitely be out weighed be the huge amount of water and sewer fees that will be saved...


I am referring to the heat loss through the uninsulated hot water pipes. Maybe the ground and air temp in San Diego make it a non-issue.

If you add a circ system here without insulating the lines, the utility bill for keeping that water hot in the winter is pretty high.


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## 504Plumber

plbgbiz said:


> I am referring to the heat loss through the uninsulated hot water pipes. Maybe the ground and air temp in San Diego make it a non-issue.
> 
> If you add a circ system here without insulating the lines, the utility bill for keeping that water hot in the winter is pretty high.


It's not really an issue down here but if it runs above ground we insulate them anyway.


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## Prscptn Plmbng

plbgbiz said:


> I am referring to the heat loss through the uninsulated hot water pipes. Maybe the ground and air temp in San Diego make it a non-issue.
> 
> If you add a circ system here without insulating the lines, the utility bill for keeping that water hot in the winter is pretty high.


Heat loss is not an issue with this type of system no matter the climate, its an on demand system, meaning no hot water runs thru the piping until the button is pushed. 

Its the same as running the faucet and waiting, the brilliant Thing is... Instead of wasting the water down the drain, the cooled water in the hot pipe is pushed into the cold water side making a loop at the water heater. 

Out here our sewer bill is based off the water usage... So saving water saves on the sewer bill... Not to meantion saving water and customers time... 

Check out the system online...


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## Prscptn Plmbng

504Plumber said:


> It's not really an issue down here but if it runs above ground we insulate them anyway.


Yes uninsulated piping is a problem even here in san diego... Insulating Hot and cold piping will make the system more efficiently.


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## 100 Watt

We've installed plenty of these pumps. They do the job.






Autocirc made by Laing. @$275

If someone wants a tankless and "instant" hot water I try to steer them to the Navien with the built in recirc pump.


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## stillaround

The Laing has a 93 degree thermostat setting. ( I think )..When people want instant hot its less than satisfying...for $200 you can put in a 2.5 gal tank in a cabinet with the hot piped in and out....kind of old school but I havent had anyone really like the under sink recircs


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## HOT H2O

stillaround said:


> The Laing has a 93 degree thermostat setting. ( I think )..When people want instant hot its less than satisfying...for $200 you can put in a 2.5 gal tank in a cabinet with the hot piped in and out....kind of old school but I havent had anyone really like the under sink recircs


I was just looking at the Laing's autocirc, and may end up putting one in, but I'm curious about the 2.5 gal under the sink. Would that only take care of the one fixture, or can you figure a way to plumb it into the whole bathroom group. Down here in Florida a lot of things are looped under slab, I am guessing that to connect to the manifold would probably cost more than using the under sink recirc pump.


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## Don The Plumber

HOT H2O said:


> I was just looking at the Laing's autocirc, and may end up putting one in, but I'm curious about the 2.5 gal under the sink. Would that only take care of the one fixture, or can you figure a way to plumb it into the whole bathroom group. Down here in Florida a lot of things are looped under slab, I am guessing that to connect to the manifold would probably cost more than using the under sink recirc pump.


 I've installed a few. Customer complaints are the cold water is luke warm to hot, & you have to run cold water for a bit, to get it cold. That's cuz the Laing pump, pumps the hot water into the cold. I thought it to be awesome at 1st, but too many complaints, & people just unplugged em. Gotta have a constant 110 circuit under cabinet too. I've had one of those pumps in stock for several years now, & just don't like them any longer.


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## plbgbiz

Don The Plumber said:


> I've installed a few. Customer complaints are the cold water is luke warm to hot, & you have to run cold water for a bit, to get it cold. That's cuz the Laing pump, pumps the hot water into the cold. I thought it to be awesome at 1st, but too many complaints, & people just unplugged em. Gotta have a constant 110 circuit under cabinet too. I've had one of those pumps in stock for several years now, & just don't like them any longer.


Same here. Solves one problem and creates another.

They go from having to run water to get hot water to having to run water to get cold water.


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## Catlin987987

plbgbiz said:


> Same here. Solves one problem and creates another.
> 
> They go from having to run water to get hot water to having to run water to get cold water.


In the bathroom for the shower and lav, you wouldn't think it would be a issue


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## rjbphd

Catlin987987 said:


> In the bathroom for the shower and lav, you wouldn't think it would be a issue


 Good point.. why must this 'must' be at the lav?? If there's room, I'll hook it up at the shower supply pipings..


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## plbgbiz

rjbphd said:


> Good point.. why must this 'must' be at the lav?? If there's room, I'll hook it up at the shower supply pipings..


Probably more accessible for maintenance under the vanity than in the wall.


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## Don The Plumber

rjbphd said:


> Good point.. why must this 'must' be at the lav?? If there's room, I'll hook it up at the shower supply pipings..


 How you gonna get an electrical plug in there, for the pump. This pumps quite a bit of hot water into the cold. I think you may get some warm or even hot water back into the toilet to.Especially when the pump is running, & toilet is flushed, you may get all hot water to toilet. 

But yea, I think this would be better in the bath, than in the kitchen, as far as cold water being warm. But I think it will cause other problems. Why not put a recirc line in to water heater? Bit more money I know, but guaranteed to work.


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## rjbphd

Don The Plumber said:


> How you gonna get an electrical plug in there, for the pump. This pumps quite a bit of hot water into the cold. I think you may get some warm or even hot water back into the toilet to.Especially when the pump is running, & toilet is flushed, you may get all hot water to toilet.
> 
> But yea, I think this would be better in the bath, than in the kitchen, as far as cold water being warm. But I think it will cause other problems. Why not put a recirc line in to water heater? Bit more money I know, but guaranteed to work.


 Now that I agree... why not plumb in the circ line in the first place!???


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## HOT H2O

rjbphd said:


> Now that I agree... why not plumb in the circ line in the first place!???


This was the email I got when I quoted the Laing... imagine if I tried to sell him a recirc line back to the heater with a pump and timer: 

______________________________________________
Billy- Honestly, this is much more than what we had in our last house and the final cost of material, labor, and electrical will be in $400-500 range- which is just not worth doing.

If there is no simpler, smaller, less expensive recirculating pump for residential use, then we'll pass.
______________________________________________

The part that kills me , is $450 installed with adding the outlet under the vanity, seems fairly cheap.


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## OldSchool

HOT H2O said:


> This was the email I got when I quoted the Laing... imagine if I tried to sell him a recirc line back to the heater with a pump and timer:
> 
> ______________________________________________
> Billy- Honestly, this is much more than what we had in our last house and the final cost of material, labor, and electrical will be in $400-500 range- which is just not worth doing.
> 
> If there is no simpler, smaller, less expensive recirculating pump for residential use, then we'll pass.
> ______________________________________________
> 
> The part that kills me , is $450 installed with adding the outlet under the vanity, seems fairly cheap.


You should write them back saying you made a mistake ... The price should have been $ 950.00


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## stillaround

HOT H2O said:


> This was the email I got when I quoted the Laing... imagine if I tried to sell him a recirc line back to the heater with a pump and timer:
> 
> ______________________________________________
> Billy- Honestly, this is much more than what we had in our last house and the final cost of material, labor, and electrical will be in $400-500 range- which is just not worth doing.
> 
> If there is no simpler, smaller, less expensive recirculating pump for residential use, then we'll pass.
> ______________________________________________
> 
> The part that kills me , is $450 installed with adding the outlet under the vanity, seems fairly cheap.


 Sounds like my marketplace.....something in their car goes bad and $450 is nothing.....


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