# Need more power



## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

HO is looking to keep toilet but gain a more powerful flush. 3.5 gal kohler with water displacement device. Has anyone ripped out the Styrofoam liner? Thoughts?


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## Flyin Brian (Aug 22, 2009)

looks kinda like an old artesian,what is the styrafoam for to prevent the tank from sweating?


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

The "power" of the flush is strictly a function the the casting of the china (which you cannot change) and the difference in elevation between the top of the water column in the tank and the weir of the china trap in the bowl.

Pulling out the Styrofoam would change nothing.

You could gain a small amount of more force by raising the water level in the tank to maximum (which would require extending the flush valve overflow), but the gain would be extremely negligible and not worth the effort IMO.

You could also gain some force by lessening friction in the china casting somehow (possibly a wax coating), but I can't imagine how to do that effectively.


The answer to an HO who wants a more powerful flush without changing the china is:_ "it cannot be done_".


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

On second thought you could hook up a solenoid valve to push water down the overflow during a flush cycle. Most of it would likely come back up past the flapper, but it _would_ increase the pressure :yes:

The time, effort, and money involved in this engineering feat would be significant (and your liability if it malfunctioned would be large also)...but think of the entertainment value :thumbup: (for us, anyway :laughing


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Not sure why a 3.5 gallon wouldnt have a powerful enough flush. :blink: I would start looking for other problems. Partial clog, no or poor vent, or simply calcium buildup in the rim and/or siphon jets. Most commonly I have found that the refill tube from the ballcock is not filling the bowl entirely or you have the wrong flapper (closing prematurely). Let us know what you find.

The styrofoam is there to keep the tank from sweating. I doubt you need more water volume.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Michaelcookplum said:


> HO is looking to keep toilet but gain a more powerful flush. 3.5 gal kohler with water displacement device. <snip>
> 
> I don't think you'll get a lot by tearing out the liner, but it looks in the photo that a DIY ball was installed. A 3.5 needs the original ball or it will shut to quick. Also make sure the refill is not blocked and it is inserted at the right point the bowl must be brought back to the correct refill height or about 1/2 of the next flush will be lost. Lastly put a disposal connector cut to the right height to raise the water level [looks low] to me.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

John:blink:Mcleod. That was funny. :laughing::blink: Were you serious?:blink:


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## No-hub (Sep 1, 2012)

Take an allen wrench and stick it in every hole in the p-rim and clean them out and it makes the cast in the china a little larger=more flow in bowl, better flush. About all you can do.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Pipe Rat said:


> John:blink:Mcleod. That was funny. :laughing::blink: Were you serious?:blink:


Just having a little fun with the phrasing of the OP :laughing:

It would work, though :yes:...and be oh, so funny to look at the pics :laughing:

No offense meant to Michael...just joking around.

The "more power" issue can likely be addressed by the means you and Bill posted. 

There is an acid treatment out now that's supposed to remove lime deposits from the china waterway that I've been seeing in supply houses recently. I haven't used it, but a few plumbers I've talked to have and claim it works.

I can't remember the name of the stuff, but it starts with a "V" and is supposed to dissolve deposits without making fumes.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Those 3.5 gallon wellworths didn't really flush that well anyways. It's time for a new toilet.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Toilet is too old to justify your time. 

Here, no one wants the liability of trying to decalcify a toilet. Too easy to get sued for using caustic chemicals in a home. Taking the toilet to your shop kills any profit.

If setting the water level to the right height, right flapper and making sure the trap and jets are clear don't help the flush, new toilet is needed.

Learn what works, when to walk away and when to run.


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

A toilet swap makes more money anyway, especially if the flange needs repairs. I've all but stopped trying to juke the ports out with the coathanger. Just wasting time. IMO


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

I wish I would have saved some 3.5's for myself. I would rebuild them for eternity. Water conservation and skidmarks be damned.:yes:


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Pipe Rat said:


> I wish I would have saved some 3.5's for myself. I would rebuild them for eternity. Water conservation and skidmarks be damned.:yes:


 I pulled a American Std tilt flush valve toilet and I'm holding on to it...


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

Why not just install the Sloan Flushmate? I wanna put one in my foyer bath just to scare people. You never forget the first time you use one. Lol


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

I often give it a decent attempt to revive a commode and do well most of the time. But after a decent attempt unless a commode is an off color the customer can't live without or it is wrapped with tile then it isn't worth the expense. Always customers choice, just make sure they want to spend the money.
If they love the commode that much maybe offer to plant a rose in it and set it in the flower garden.:laughing:


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

Pipe Rat said:


> I wish I would have saved some 3.5's for myself. I would rebuild them for eternity. Water conservation and skidmarks be damned.:yes:


This HO bought it right before they stopped selling 3.5's. we installed it a few years later


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## b1800e30m3 (Feb 10, 2012)

Get ride of that old junker and get yourself an Ada Gerber avalanche. They flush great, approx 1000 grams per flush. We install about 50 or so a year. Base is larger so it covers old toilet footprint. And customers love the comfort height for its easier on there knees. We just took out an old kohler the other day that was packed with calcium. I don't think it ever flushed better than the avalanche. 

Hth,
Barry


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## Drumma Plumma (Jun 5, 2012)

b1800e30m3 said:


> Get ride of that old junker and get yourself an Ada Gerber avalanche. They flush great, approx 1000 grams per flush. We install about 50 or so a year. Base is larger so it covers old toilet footprint. And customers love the comfort height for its easier on there knees. We just took out an old kohler the other day that was packed with calcium. I don't think it ever flushed better than the avalanche.
> 
> Hth,
> Barry


The gerber viper flushes very well too. Uses regular fluidmaster and 
Flapper too (no 3") so repair will be easy. I've installed about a dozen in the last six months. None have clogged yet (though many customers have tried!) much better price point than Avalanche too. I just wish they were made here and not in china!!


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

I've installed a bunch of kohler highlines this year without 1 problem.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

I install the keeney flushall. http://www.keeneymfg.com/featured_products/29-Keeney-FlushAll-Flush-Valve

It appears to me that it works a little better than the standard flush valves. Customers like them to. I've had luck putting a cherne in a toilet then filling the whole thing with white vinegar overnight. Came back and brush the side holes with a stiff brush....worked much better then before.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

gear junkie said:


> I install the keeney flushall. http://www.keeneymfg.com/featured_products/29-Keeney-FlushAll-Flush-Valve
> 
> It appears to me that it works a little better than the standard flush valves. Customers like them to. I've had luck putting a cherne in a toilet then filling the whole thing with white vinegar overnight. Came back and brush the side holes with a stiff brush....worked much better then before.


I've seen those before but have no experience with them.. Basically it's a 3" flapper on a 2" flush valve right? Maybe I'll try them out if they are really better. They seemed kinda gimmicky when I saw them.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

JDGA80 said:


> A toilet swap makes more money anyway....


Not necessarily. 

If your billable hour rate is set to cover your overhead and profit properly, then it doesn't matter if you spend that time changing flappers or cleaning old toilets out of your van.


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