# Anyone know what to do with this antique stuff??



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I go out to a home down south that has sections build as far back as 1840
and it has another area built in 1863 and most of the plumbing from the early 20s...

he claims it was an underground rail road building with a tunnel to the next building about a 
block away.......

the guy wants to repair 3 of these tub faucets and I am not sure if this is even possible
they are Crane from about 1920 or earlier


also wants to upgrade he toilets to tank type which would mean reducing the water line in the wall
and coming out with 1/2 or 3/8th which looks like a fun time too......


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I am not even sure what the handle above the sink is even for on this crane unit...... 
Thought it might work the drain
but it is not connected in any way....maybe it was for water from a cistern 
all sinks in the building have that same thing.....


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

The handle above the sink may be a shut off for the toilet or something else. Sometimes you'll see shut offs done that way in really old homes. It could have been for an in wall waste assembly, but that would almost certainly mean access on the back side and probably wouldn't have a "C" on the handle.

Why wouldn't the shower and lav faucet be serviceable? I handle pre-war stuff all the time. Remember, you're not fixing them, just servicing them. Old stuff is meant to be serviced and rarely actually breaks. Most guys now a days just say it's broken because they don't have the tools or knowledge to work on them.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> The handle above the sink may be a shut off for the toilet or something else. Sometimes you'll see shut offs done that way in really old homes. It could have been for an in wall waste assembly, but that would almost certainly mean access on the back side and probably wouldn't have a "C" on the handle.
> 
> Why wouldn't the shower and lav faucet be serviceable? I handle pre-war stuff all the time. Remember, you're not fixing them, just servicing them. Old stuff is meant to be serviced and rarely actually breaks. Most guys now a days just say it's broken because they don't have the tools or knowledge to work on them.



I am calling around for parts at this point.... they want to tear out those toilets and install tank type toilets 
so that means it has to be reduced in the wall which could go easy or real hard....


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> I am calling around for parts at this point.... they want to tear out those toilets and install tank type toilets
> so that means it has to be reduced in the wall which could go easy or real hard....


What parts do you need? You don't have the standard rebuilding stuff like washers, seats, screws, packings, etc?

I really like those bowls. Is that a sloan angle stop? Never seen that before.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> What parts do you need? You don't have the standard rebuilding stuff like washers, seats, screws, packings, etc?
> 
> I really like those bowls. Is that a sloan angle stop? Never seen that before.



I have most everything ....been carrying this junk around in my truck for decades
the stems should just take washers , perhaps seats if they can be matched up--which is no big deal
hopefully my seat wrenches will fit whatever kind of seat is staring back at me.....

but the single handle shower valve concerns me--- never fooled with one of those in decades

setting a toilet is not the issue but getting into that pipe in the wall and bushing it down could be a
contest ......

the parts guy at the best store in town told me to bring one of the stems up to him to match them up

gonna worry about this tomorrow.


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

The valve on the wall above the lav was for hard water. The hot and cold on the sink were softened. you can see where it was hooked up in the pic with your hand. 

you were really somebody if your house had soft water back then.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Toli said:


> The valve on the wall above the lav was for hard water. The hot and cold on the sink were softened. you can see where it was hooked up in the pic with your hand.
> 
> you were really somebody if your house had soft water back then.


Thanks for that info!

Should be a diverter stem then to swap between the softened and unsoftened on the cold side. Nice. 

I have seen ancient softeners, they had to be regenned manually and some were huge, roughly 200gal steel tanks. Some were intended to be swapped out like culligan still does now with smaller steel tanks. Blows my mind that they still do that.


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

No diverter stem. The hard valve ties into the faucet just like the soft valves. If you look at the pic of the under side of the lav you’ll see third nipple coming out of the wall between the hot and cold. Thats the hard feed.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Toli said:


> No diverter stem. The hard valve ties into the faucet just like the soft valves. If you look at the pic of the under side of the lav you’ll see third nipple coming out of the wall between the hot and cold. Thats the hard feed.


That is something you dont see every day...actually I think its the first time for me....


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> The handle above the sink may be a shut off for the toilet or something else. Sometimes you'll see shut offs done that way in really old homes. It could have been for an in wall waste assembly, but that would almost certainly mean access on the back side and probably wouldn't have a "C" on the handle.
> 
> Why wouldn't the shower and lav faucet be serviceable? I handle pre-war stuff all the time. Remember, you're not fixing them, just servicing them. Old stuff is meant to be serviced and rarely actually breaks. Most guys now a days just say it's broken because they don't have the tools or knowledge to work on them.


Unless the homeowners are rich,replacing that old stuff is the most economical way for them to go,the time it takes tracking this crap down then trying to piece it all back together then it leaks worse after you fixed it and they feel like you screwed them over,new is the best way to go 98% of the time


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> Thanks for that info!
> 
> Should be a diverter stem then to swap between the softened and unsoftened on the cold side. Nice.
> 
> I have seen ancient softeners, they had to be regenned manually and some were huge, roughly 200gal steel tanks. Some were intended to be swapped out like culligan still does now with smaller steel tanks. Blows my mind that they still do that.


Was there a ancient water softener in the house mark???


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> Unless the homeowners are rich,replacing that old stuff is the most economical way for them to go,the time it takes tracking this crap down then trying to piece it all back together then it leaks worse after you fixed it and they feel like you screwed them over,new is the best way to go 98% of the time


I am gonna bid this high , already was told to take out a stem and drag it down town to match it up if they even have one...
The were not even sure about this... and not sure about the single handle shower faucets installed above the faucets too....

probably just going to pass on this mess...

The water softener was torn out decades ago and replaced with an Autotrol which appears to soften
the whole house.. its old as hell and turned off too...
.. I assume the old soft line going to about 5 lavatories in the home has been cut 
out and capped off long ago too

dicking around with those toilets and installing tank type could be a real challenge too....

I told him 2, 500 to cut it all out and install a single handle delta 1700 and a new 
tub drain... we would have to cut out the drum trap too... their are 3 tubs to do in this barn

Its not gonna happen


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

You can’t put new, modern faucets on those lavatories.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Toli said:


> You can’t put new, modern faucets on those lavatories.


Why not? I don't think he should, but I think he could.

Sign of the crab makes a widespread faucet with an extra wide base for the spout which should cover the old waste control hole. Personally I would have the spout re-plated and then get modern valves to hook up to it. Newport brass makes some trims that look really close to those handles.









P0345 St. Lawrence Widespread Lavatory Faucet with Cross Handles


Industry leaders in vintage, period specific, high-end plumbing fixtures and hardware. Best-in-class quality and customer service from wholesale to end customer.




stromliving.com


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

See that area in the circle? The entire pop up linkage is in there. Inside the china. Modern style pop ups won’t work on that lav. And the existing pop up will not work with a new faucet.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> I am gonna bid this high , already was told to take out a stem and drag it down town to match it up if they even have one...
> The were not even sure about this... and not sure about the single handle shower faucets installed above the faucets too....
> 
> probably just going to pass on this mess...
> ...


You quoted a generous price IMO


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Toli said:


> View attachment 130385
> 
> See that area in the circle? The entire pop up linkage is in there. Inside the china. Modern style pop ups won’t work on that lav. And the existing pop up will not work with a new faucet.


If the homeowner is wanting a usable lavatory then tear out sink and all of it and replace with stiff from the 21st century,if they want to look at it then leave it like you found it


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Toli said:


> See that area in the circle? The entire pop up linkage is in there. Inside the china. Modern style pop ups won’t work on that lav. And the existing pop up will not work with a new faucet.


Yes, I understand that. He would cover the pop-up hole with the new spout like I said and could no longer use a standard pop-up assembly. I guess I should have mentioned they make push-button pop-ups. Or for that retro look he could get a deep strainer tailpiece with a grumb cup and use a rubber stopper.

Most push button pop-ups have longer threaded portions which he may need given the design of that sink.


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

But the hole in the China for the spout is not the same hole as the pop up linkage. There’s two problems with this- the hole is so far to the back that a modern style spout won’t sit right on the sink, and the hole for the pop up linkage is too far away from the other hole to be covered with a spout.
I’ve tried all this in the past. Next thing you know you got 8 hrs fuquin’ around and a cobbled together mess to show for it.


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

here’s a pic of a similar crane spout.


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

The other problem with the drain- the sink is so thick that I don’t think a mushroom drain would be long enough. I could be wrong on that, tho.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> If the homeowner is wanting a usable lavatory then tear out sink and all of it and replace with stiff from the 21st century,if they want to look at it then leave it like you found it





sparky said:


> You quoted a generous price IMO



You guys are getting way ahead of yourselves.... 
he is planning on tearing out the lavatories and installing modern pedistels himself... wise move

all he wants from me is those crane toilets taken out and tank type toilets installed in place of them... 
which means cranking out that nipple from the wall and reducing it to 1/2 

Also, he wants those tub faucets repaired if possible ... Now, I can dabble with them, throw in a new washer
but I dont intend getting hung up on 3 of those pigs for days and days.... I have taken out seats before
and sanded them down to a fine flat surface again when you could not match them up .... I have had to 
do this many times over the years....

I have not bid the job as of yet..... 

Toilets could be trouble getting out those old nipples without tearing up the wall
installing the toilet itself is no big deal.....I think, hope.....

New delta tub faucets would be a bear to do with changing out the tub drain and drum trap 
probably would have to cut open the ceiling on the first floor and make a hell of a mess doing it ..... 

2500 seemed reasonable for the tub faucet and drain but you say that was cheap
but you tell me what you would tackle that beast for Sparkey......

I will gladly listen to your advice..... run away


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> You guys are getting way ahead of yourselves....
> he is planning on tearing out the lavatories and installing modern pedistels himself... wise move
> 
> all he wants from me is those crane toilets taken out and tank type toilets installed in place of them...
> ...


My mistake,I thought the toilet work was included in that estimate,you are good with the 2500.00 for the tub faucets only IMO


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> You guys are getting way ahead of yourselves....
> he is planning on tearing out the lavatories and installing modern pedistels himself... wise move
> 
> all he wants from me is those crane toilets taken out and tank type toilets installed in place of them...
> ...


I have done that with seats lots of times, I would take them out to the sidewalk to grind them flat


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

MACPLUMB777 said:


> I have done that with seats lots of times, I would take them out to the sidewalk to grind them flat


He be lucky to get seats out that are that old,if they have dried out from water being turned off you can forget about it


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> He be lucky to get seats out that are that old,if they have dried out from water being turned off you can forget about it



I wont touch them if they look good.... normally a good piece of sandpaper and running the seats over them on a flat surface will
work pretty well to take out small nicks... a file is needed if its a huge spot that needs to be shaved down..

So what do you think my chances are in getting those 1 inch nipples out of the wall and reducing them to 1/2 
on those antique toilets????


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

I replaced five of those same era toilets in a mansion down SE MI years ago. I can’t remember what we did though. I think we bushed them down and ran copper down outside the wall, not sure. Don’t remember anything going wrong.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> I wont touch them if they look good.... normally a good piece of sandpaper and running the seats over them on a flat surface will
> work pretty well to take out small nicks... a file is needed if its a huge spot that needs to be shaved down..
> 
> So what do you think my chances are in getting those 1 inch nipples out of the wall and reducing them to 1/2
> on those antique toilets????


If the water has been turned on the whole time where threads are submerged in water I’d say pretty good chance they will come right out,but if they have dried out and corroded up they will break off most likely


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

sparky said:


> He be lucky to get seats out that are that old,if they have dried out from water being turned off you can forget about it


What? Are you talking about the rubber washers?


@Master Mark @MACPLUMB777

A note of caution, if you take the seats out and simply grind them flat than make sure to soften the edges so they don't just cut up the new washer. You'd likely be better off trying to resurface them with a tool in place instead of removing them if you don't have replacements. I like to use a piece of grit cloth stretched on a flat surface when I am forced to do this.


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## northplm (Jul 11, 2021)

Master Mark said:


> I wont touch them if they look good.... normally a good piece of sandpaper and running the seats over them on a flat surface will
> work pretty well to take out small nicks... a file is needed if its a huge spot that needs to be shaved down..
> 
> So what do you think my chances are in getting those 1 inch nipples out of the wall and reducing them to 1/2
> on those antique toilets????


I used to do a lot of work in an old apartment building from the 1800s that had those Sloan valves, I think we called them "naval" Sloan valves. The guy was a huge cheapskate and didn't give a crap what stuff looked like, so lots of times we would just spin the Sloan stop off, spin on a nipple with a reducing coupling, and hook to a tank style toilet. Galvanized like that can be fishy, it might come right out with a pipe wrench or it might start crumbling. I would be liberal with PB Blaster on the stuff, and if you have access to the back side of the wall, get another guy with a backer wrench you might have some luck spinning those old nipples out. I would just be really careful to let the homeowner know that he could be opening a massive can of worms. Same apartment building I was telling you about, landlord had me in there rebuilding a bunch of old faucets, new seats, packings, etc. He wanted any stop valves replaced that needed it as well. So I'm on the third floor, I go to turn off the cold stop and the packing starts leaking. I was really nervous about it because it looked like it was in terrible condition, so I put a backer on the stop and when I went to tighten the packing, I accidentally ripped the whole valve off the nipple, the old galvanized nipple was rotted out. So water starts blasting all over, I run down, shut water off, had to break out a little block wall, was able to spin the old rotted nipple out of the 90 in the wall, replaced, new stop, etc. I turn water back on, no leaks. I think to myself "better be careful on the hot side". I went to turn the hot side stop valve off, and just the force of my bare hands turning the valve handle ripped the valve right off the rotted out nipple, water gushing all over, repeated the whole thing over again. Should have just replaced them both at the same time, I know. Anyways, long story short, never trust 100 year old galvanized.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> .................So what do you think my chances are in getting those 1 inch nipples out of the wall .........


The galv might break off in the wall, but with some heat you might have good luck. Worst case you need a big square extractor. Are you sure it's galv? Looks like chrome in the pic.

If you really don't want to break it off in the wall you could just reuse the nipple on the sloan valve and keep the sloan stop. Put a reducing 90 on the sloan nipple. The nipple is part #17 in the exploded view below. Put the sloan valve body in a chain vise and apply some heat, they use adhesive pipe dope to put those nipples in. You can also buy those nipples separate.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> The galv might break off in the wall, but with some heat you might have good luck. Worst case you need a big square extractor. Are you sure it's galv? Looks like chrome in the pic.
> 
> If you really don't want to break it off in the wall you could just reuse the nipple on the sloan valve and keep the sloan stop. Put a reducing 90 on the sloan nipple. The nipple is part #17 in the exploded view below. Put the sloan valve body in a chain vise and apply some heat, they use adhesive pipe dope to put those nipples in. You can also buy those nipples separate.
> 
> ...


Hell, I dont know what is coming out of that toilet wall... 
it might be a chrome sleeve on old galvanized for all I know.....
Maybe if I get lucky I will heat that baby up red hot and burn the house down....  

We have been blessed with a ton of work for us to do for the last 18 months
.... this week so far I its been fairly medium to slow which feels goooood.... for a change..
Tonight I threw 2 gas leak calls to another company that likes to do them., and today I 
threw a job 35 miles away to another company to go re-set a toilet......
we have plenty of things to keep up busy enough without burning up a tank of gas
and half the day driving across town for a small job.... 

I am finding that when you are very busy with the big 
dollar calls , you can actually lose money when you go out and waste half of the day
dicking around on a toilet or cleaning out a kitchen drain. Of course If I dont have
anything else to do today then I will go do it.... 

I am really not all that enthused about diving into this mess head first , when I am already
booked up with easy-peasy things to do.......... 

Now if I was totally dead in the water I might consider it
but fools rush in where wise men fear to tread...


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## After Hour plum (Jun 9, 2020)

MACPLUMB777 said:


> I have done that with seats lots of times, I would take them out to the sidewalk to grind them flat


many many times back in the early 90s


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> What? Are you talking about the rubber washers?
> 
> No,I'm talking about the brass seats the washer goes against
> @Master Mark @MACPLUMB777
> ...


no I'm talking about the brass seats the washer goes up against


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Well, I walked away from this mess..... It turns out he actually is ordering some antique crane toilets 
that match this design and he plans on installing them in place of the cracked bowls .... 
In his own words.. this is gonna go smooth---
finding the correct spud and possibly a new 1 1/2 elbow ought to be fun

I wished him
luck cause he is gonna need it....


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> ................
> I wished him
> luck cause he is gonna need it....


Looks like just a standard 1-1/2" spud to me. If he gets new bowls meant for wall hung tanks he'll just need 1-1/2"X2" spuds.

I do this kind of stuff everyday, doesn't take luck, just the right tools, parts, and know how. Your father would have fixed this stuff everyday when he started plumbing.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> Looks like just a standard 1-1/2" spud to me. If he gets new bowls meant for wall hung tanks he'll just need 1-1/2"X2" spuds.
> 
> I do this kind of stuff everyday, doesn't take luck, just the right tools, parts, and know how. Your father would have fixed this stuff everyday when he started plumbing.



Originally he wanted new tank type toilets,,,, now they want it to stay the same

Yes its a standard spud... dont really know if you can use the elbow bend over again
I suppose they are available if you hunt long and hard for them..
and he is getting some used crane stuff off of E-bay or some other outlet...(sweet).
and I dont really have the time or patience to fool with it right now..

. I am busy with your common run of the mill things right now

If I was extremely slow, well maybe


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> ................ dont really know if you can use the elbow bend over again
> I suppose they are available if you hunt long and hard for them..
> .............


You mean the discharge from the sloan valve? If you don't care about a vacuum breaker you can use a 1-1/2" chrome flanged tailpiece meant for a kitchen sink. If you want a vacuum breaker than use a sloan VB, cut it short and use a 1-1/2" chrome slipjoint 90. If you can't get the Sloan VB to fit and you still want backflow prevention you could just put a double check on the 1" supply to the sloan valve.

Or you just do it the right way and use two street 90s on the supply so you can use a modern sloan valve.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> You mean the discharge from the sloan valve? If you don't care about a vacuum breaker you can use a 1-1/2" chrome flanged tailpiece meant for a kitchen sink. If you want a vacuum breaker than use a sloan VB, cut it short and use a 1-1/2" chrome slipjoint 90. If you can't get the Sloan VB to fit and you still want backflow prevention you could just put a double check on the 1" supply to the sloan valve.
> 
> Or you just do it the right way and use two street 90s on the supply so you can use a modern sloan valve.


I have used the flanged tailpiece trick before


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

I think MARK is talking about a wall mounted tanks,


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> Well, I walked away from this mess..... It turns out he actually is ordering some antique crane toilets
> that match this design and he plans on installing them in place of the cracked bowls ....
> In his own words.. this is gonna go smooth---
> finding the correct spud and possibly a new 1 1/2 elbow ought to be fun
> ...


I don’t blame you one bit,me and you have our own businesses and can’t afford to be tied up on junk like this for days and days but if we were just working for a company it would be different,you would loose more money turning down jobs than you would make fooling with this ancient crappers


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

MACPLUMB777 said:


> I think MARK is talking about a wall mounted tanks,



I dont know what direction this guy is gonna go.... first it was tank type toilets, then now he is getting
some antique junk from somewhere and is gonna try to make it work.....

You look at the bottom of that sloan valve and it appears you could possibly use a flanged tailpiece washer and
a 1 1/2 brass kitchen elbow and fit that thing together..... I hope he is gonna put on a new spud too 

Its all got to fall into place without a hitch..... if it done line up perfectly
its going to be the crying game,,,,

and I wish him the best...


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

Those valves with 90 degree vacuum breakers and straight stops can be bought from Sloan. Probably be cost prohibitive but they are available.


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## Bostic Plumbing (Sep 20, 2021)

I think that if you can get this stuff to come apart, and that is if, and if the worms or threads on the stem and faucet body are not badly worn out. You may be able to clean them up with a brush, sand cloth etc. Grease everything with silicone grease, replace washers, use Teflon packing or roll long strands of Teflon tape for packing you may be able to put it back in working order. You can even grind down the top of the seats if they are integral with the faucet body and are pitted. These do not look as heavy as old Kohler faucets from the 20's, but they could be. I have done this on old Kohler faucets this old and they were incredibly heavy and were just corroded badly. It was miraculous how well they worked after cleaning and greasing. An old man told me many years ago, "grease is cheap boy, use it". That is one of our biggest problems with faucets (and flush meters) today. If one is a new work plumber then one will just slap the new one in and get gone never intending to be back. I am a repair plumber and I do still have customers calling me for repairs on 200 year old houses 37 years later. SO, LISTEN UP, grease all threads on all faucets and even flush meters, filters, Basket strainers, whatever because the plumber that has to come back and service the faucet etc. may be you and if it is greased properly it may just come apart easily. The extra time that you take to do this will pay off in the future. 
Thanks Jim


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## Bostic Plumbing (Sep 20, 2021)

OH and PS no price, time and material because this will take a lot of time .


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Bostic Plumbing said:


> OH and PS no price, time and material because this will take a lot of time .


I say put it in new if at all possible and be a hero


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## Bostic Plumbing (Sep 20, 2021)

sparky said:


> I say put it in new if at all possible and be a hero


They want old. you can't put new old in in most cases.


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## Bostic Plumbing (Sep 20, 2021)

Master Mark said:


> I go out to a home down south that has sections build as far back as 1840
> and it has another area built in 1863 and most of the plumbing from the early 20s...
> 
> he claims it was an underground rail road building with a tunnel to the next building about a
> ...


Just where "down south" are you talking about?


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Bostic Plumbing said:


> Just where "down south" are you talking about?


I think he means southern Indiana.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Bostic Plumbing said:


> They want old. you can't put new old in in most cases.


You're yelling at the deaf. Most of these guys can't comprehend why a customer would want to use old plumbing fixtures. Many of them don't even carry seats/washers on the van. 

Some of them even drive open body pick-ups to service calls!!!!


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> Some of them even drive open body pick-ups to service calls!!!!


and that means we are the best of the best,we. Know what we need and don't have $15,000.00 in material driving up and down the road collecting dust


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

sparky said:


> and that means we are the best of the best,we. Know what we need and don't have $15,000.00 in material driving up and down the road collecting dust


I regularly use 80% of my material. My tools take up more space than my parts. None of my stuff gets rained on and I almost never call back for parts or make a supply house run. That right there is efficiency and more money in the company's pockets. Good for me when I get my bonus/raise/profit sharing.

But hey, some guys need an excuse to run and grab a bud in the middle of a call


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> I regularly use 80% of my material. My tools take up more space than my parts. None of my stuff gets rained on and I almost never call back for parts or make a supply house run. That right there is efficiency and more money in the company's pockets. Good for me when I get my bonus/raise/profit sharing.
> 
> But hey, some guys need an excuse to run and grab a bud in the middle of a call



I got dial -ease stems in my truck that have seen at least 200k miles of travel time.. I dont know why I still carry them around..
I threw out a whole bin of various brass seats this summer cause they weighed probably 30 pounds and I have
not touched them since 2005..... Still carrying around Sayco stems and repair trim but have not needed any
of it in a few years.... i dont need half the stuff i carry around.... must be out of habit


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## DDDave (Aug 6, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> I got dial -ease stems in my truck that have seen at least 200k miles of travel time.. I dont know why I still carry them around..
> I threw out a whole bin of various brass seats this summer cause they weighed probably 30 pounds and I have
> not touched them since 2005..... Still carrying around Sayco stems and repair trim but have not needed any
> of it in a few years.... i dont need half the stuff i carry around.... must be out of habit


You might need them but you're burning dollars. Two vans ago while building new drawers, I came up with something like $14 in gas (I donno 3.25 at the time maybe) per pound vehicle weight for 150k miles. Don't quote me.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

DDDave said:


> You might need them but you're burning dollars. Two vans ago while building new drawers, I came up with something like $14 in gas (I donno 3.25 at the time maybe) per pound vehicle weight for 150k miles. Don't quote me.


Dragging all this dead weight around can cost money over time.... wear and tear on the truck, tires ect..
I need to wean myself of things I have not used in years......

cost vs efficiency and not having to go find parts if you need them....


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> I regularly use 80% of my material. My tools take up more space than my parts. None of my stuff gets rained on and I almost never call back for parts or make a supply house run. That right there is efficiency and more money in the company's pockets. Good for me when I get my bonus/raise/profit sharing.
> 
> But hey, some guys need an excuse to run and grab a bud in the middle of a call


Stop making all that money for the company,you are just a number to them,get your open bed utility bed truck and go in business for yourself,gotta be a leader, can’t be a follower your whole life


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## DDDave (Aug 6, 2014)

sparky said:


> Stop making all that money for the company,you are just a number to them,get your open bed utility bed truck and go in business for yourself,gotta be a leader, can’t be a follower your whole life


OR, "pay" your (non-idiot) boss to do boss stuff 24/7 while you treat him and his operation with care/respect and you get to do what you want, including plumbing stuff. It's a percentages thing.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

DDDave said:


> OR, "pay" your (non-idiot) boss to do boss stuff 24/7 while you treat him and his operation with care/respect and you get to do what you want, including plumbing stuff. It's a percentages thing.


You will never make the same kind of money working for somebody vs working for yourself,I have done both and until I went into business for myself full time I never realized how much money I was making for the man,I was wearing and tearing my body so I finally realized I might as well kill my body for myself vs someone’s that doesn’t give a crap about me


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

That can all be true, but there are also some benefits to punching out at 4:00 and shutting off your work phone, heading out of town or staying drunk all weekend, without a care in the world until Monday morning rolls around. If you are worth it you can pretty much ask what you want and demand how you want to be treated, and if you don't get it someone else will be happy to give it to you, all without the headaches that the boss has. I have been on both sides of the fence, and the benefits to both sides are good, just different. You are going to have headaches one way or another. I can't imagine going to sleep at night worrying about the work that some of our guys have done, how it is potentially going to affect our customers' homes, property, even their lives. Yeah, I may someday go back to owning my own business, having learned from some past mistakes, but I don't know if I would have employees again. That can work for you if you have the right temperament. Being a one man shop can also have it's downfalls, such as what happens if I get sick or injured.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> You will never make the same kind of money working for somebody vs working for yourself,I have done both and until I went into business for myself full time I never realized how much money I was making for the man,I was wearing and tearing my body so I finally realized I might as well kill my body for myself vs someone’s that doesn’t give a crap about me


I have made more money in one day than many people make in a month.. on average
I would say normally what most people make in a week is my normal day. and then some..
. I could be out installing a water heater on sunday if I was really greedy but I dont want to get a divorce ...
. 
I would not be able to work for anyone ever again...... If you have to wear yourself out
its better to build up your business vs taking care of someone who could really care less
about you and what kind of nasty hell holes they send you to 
.....(and maybe you might get a Turkey for X-mas bonus) lol

build up your own business and you are enriching your own soul and family with a potential legacy at the 
same time.....


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> I have made more money in one day than many people make in a month.. on average
> I would say normally what most people make in a week is my normal day. and then some..
> . I could be out installing a water heater on sunday if I was really greedy but I dont want to get a divorce ...
> .
> ...


Sooooo agreeeee,the boss might give you the nastiest call you ever seen and you want to quit before you do it,but if you are on that same nasty call for your own business it makes all the difference in the world,just one example,the only reason I got into plumbing to start with was to have my own business,that's the only reason


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> Sooooo agreeeee,the boss might give you the nastiest call you ever seen and you want to quit before you do it,but if you are on that same nasty call for your own business it makes all the difference in the world,just one example,the only reason I got into plumbing to start with was to have my own business,that's the only reason


Those nasty calls can go to hell too...
. I had a company that seemed to have all section 8 work to do and they 
even had some hell hole apartments full of druggies on our side of town... 
I did a few calls for them and I could see, feel, and taste mostly trouble and danger too.... 

Then I got an emergency call from them and I had to open up the side of a kitchen sink wall to get to a leak
goinng up to the third floor....I thought the bugs, lice and roaches were gonna drag me under the kitchen sink and eat me.... 
Then they wanted the cost to re-do 2 apartments that caught on fire due to meth making in that same building
Of course They wanted to re-plumb these meth apartments
two summers ago just exactly at the time I was going out of town ....

I told them to just get someone else to mess with that hell hole and go ahead and give that guy do all the shi//y service calls
in the crack parts of town.. my gift to him. ... The guy that got the work was actually grateful to me and I suppose he made 
good money doing those re-habs. Today, now he is very sick and bed ridden this year....probably from breathing in 
all the chemicals in those **** holes...

This loss of work did not hurt my bottom line one bit, we were still chugging along just fine doing good jobs
You know , if you do this work for 40+ years and you still have to dance with every nasty pig that comes along ,
then you might be doing something wrong....


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> Those nasty calls can go to hell too...
> . I had a company that seemed to have all section 8 work to do and they
> even had some hell hole apartments full of druggies on our side of town...
> I did a few calls for them and I could see, feel, and taste mostly trouble and danger too....
> ...


So true,but we don't all get to inherit and take over an already established company where you start making profit day 1 out the door,sometimes you gotta take what you can get


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> So true,but we don't all get to inherit and take over an already established company where you start making profit day 1 out the door,sometimes you gotta take what you can get


Sparkey True..to a point... our company basically crashed and burned in the late 70s and into the 80s
My family lost some huge contracts that kept the doors open but we still had to somehow keep a crew busy doing
whatever kind of work available to make payroll..... been there and done that.. and we were certainly not making profit
and basically trying to survive...... in hindsight should have just laid everyone off and everyone would have been
happier....
It was not a pleasent time working for builders and getting stiffed every year or two, and employees
just sitting back acting like they were doing us a favor showing up in the morning..... 

Those days are over... 
So believe me or not, I had to re-invent our company from close to the ground up from the mid 80s
until now ..... I went cold turkey on all construction work and bathroom remodels
because I dont need to churn dollars for dollars to make payroll for a bunch of employees any longer.....

I dont know if we would actually be doing all that well if it were
not for the stickers I have thrown out there in every home I have stepped into over the past 30 years
and the majic of Google, the internet and the power of advertising-------- but times are certainly different

I am staying the course


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> Sparkey True..to a point... our company basically crashed and burned in the late 70s and into the 80s
> My family lost some huge contracts that kept the doors open but we still had to somehow keep a crew busy doing
> whatever kind of work available to make payroll..... been there and done that.. and we were certainly not making profit
> and basically trying to survive...... in hindsight should have just laid everyone off and everyone would have been
> ...


Oh I believe you for sure,you had to change the company to what makes you the most money with the least amount of labor and headache,I would have done the same thing


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> Oh I believe you for sure,you had to change the company to what makes you the most money with the least amount of labor and headache,I would have done the same thing


Hey Sparkey, , even as spoiled as I am, I did a nasty call today.....
.I had to get someone out of trouble and lead in a 6 inch deep cast iron flange. 
It turned out that I had the last 6 inch cast flange in 
the city still laying in our shop.... Then it took me about an hour to find our lead ladle's and okaum to lead in this pig
I got lucky

That 6 inch deep cast flange has not seen the light of day in 10 years and it got used today..... 

I have not poured a lead joint in probably 5 years...






Google Photos


Home for all your photos and videos, automatically organized and easy to share.



photos.google.com










Google Photos


Home for all your photos and videos, automatically organized and easy to share.



photos.google.com


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

I was visiting Hillwood Estate in Washington DC a few months ago. In the kitchen, the drain lines below the multiple compartment sink are plumbed in hard brass pipe. To the average visitor, probably not even noticed. But, to a plumber it's a jaw dropper.
Here's a few pics of the kitchen. This installation was probably prewar.





Kitchen and Pantry | Hillwood Estate, Museum and Garden







hillwoodmuseum.org


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> Hey Sparkey, , even as spoiled as I am, I did a nasty call today.....
> .I had to get someone out of trouble and lead in a 6 inch deep cast iron flange.
> It turned out that I had the last 6 inch cast flange in
> the city still laying in our shop.... Then it took me about an hour to find our lead ladle's and okaum to lead in this pig
> ...


Cool,see it never pays to clean the shop up and toss out a bunch of dust collector items,hope that 6" flange made you a lot of money today,what you charge just to be curious???


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> .............. I did a nasty call today.....
> .I had to get someone out of trouble and lead in a 6 inch deep cast iron flange.
> .................


You think that's a nasty call?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> You think that's a nasty call?



No not really.,,, it was clean ---I know what a nasty call looks like
just been trying to steer clear of them as much as I can..

Remember I said I was spoiled....

I was just grateful to have that deep, deep flange in stock
cause their was not another one in town .. I was about to just 
walk away from that call and come back another day when I 
found some of those deep flanges.... their was no way I was
tearing into that slab floor-- 

.gonna have to order a few more of them 
I can probably find them on line






sparky said:


> Cool,see it never pays to clean the shop up and toss out a bunch of dust collector items,hope that 6" flange made you a lot of money today,what you charge just to be curious???


Not really enough....$275.
It was for a freind of a freind


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

You


Master Mark said:


> No not really.,,, it was clean ---I know what a nasty call looks like
> just been trying to steer clear of them as much as I can..
> 
> Remember I said I was spoiled....
> ...


 you lost money lolololololo,maybe next time


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> You
> 
> you lost money lolololololo,maybe next time


It was a charity kind of thing.... really fairly simple 
so I am ok with it....... 

Out of curiosity what would you have charged for a cast iron 
flange and setting the toilet??


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> It was a charity kind of thing.... really fairly simple
> so I am ok with it.......
> 
> Out of curiosity what would you have charged for a cast iron
> flange and setting the toilet??


@OpenSights

This should be moved to the business lounge.

Probably ~400$ all done for me. How was it removing the old flange?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> @OpenSights
> 
> This should be moved to the business lounge.
> 
> Probably ~400$ all done for me. How was it removing the old flange?


It pulled out in about a minute so it was mostly going off on a hunt for
the 6 inch flange and finding my ladels and lead....

no big deal really...


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> It was a charity kind of thing.... really fairly simple
> so I am ok with it.......
> 
> Out of curiosity what would you have charged for a cast iron
> flange and setting the toilet??


$700.00 if all went well,maybe more as difficulty came about,
I quoted a lady 500.00 to remove and reinstall a new dishwasher,told her I might have to do some different plumbing,she was good with it,went and did job,slid old one out new one back in hooked up exactly as it should,gave her the bill she said,"well it won't be as much since you didn't have to do any pipe moving",I looked at her in the eye and told her,"I got lucky but you didn't, pay me $500.00 bucks and she did lolololololololo


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> $700.00 if all went well,maybe more as difficulty came about,
> I quoted a lady 500.00 to remove and reinstall a new dishwasher,told her I might have to do some different plumbing,she was good with it,went and did job,slid old one out new one back in hooked up exactly as it should,gave her the bill she said,"well it won't be as much since you didn't have to do any pipe moving",I looked at her in the eye and told her,"I got lucky but you didn't, pay me $500.00 bucks and she did lolololololololo


If you can get that every day good for you.....


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> It pulled out in about a minute so it was mostly going off on a hunt for
> the 6 inch flange and finding my ladels and lead....
> 
> no big deal really...


You ever try lead wool? It packs really nicely and you'd never know it wasn't poured. 

I keep some oakum on the van for small leaks in basement walls/penetrations. I keep lead wool too in case the gap is quite large and I need to backup the oakum. All of the oakum we have is ancient and it's still good as new. I've opened 100yr+ joints to find the oakum still good. That pine tar is some amazing stuff.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> You ever try lead wool? It packs really nicely and you'd never know it wasn't poured.
> 
> I keep some oakum on the van for small leaks in basement walls/penetrations. I keep lead wool too in case the gap is quite large and I need to backup the oakum. All of the oakum we have is ancient and it's still good as new. I've opened 100yr+ joints to find the oakum still good. That pine tar is some amazing stuff.


we used to have it laying around long ago but the okaum does good enough
also used to have a roll of asbestos rope laying around too , it was used to 
caulk in cracks on boiler doors... we threw that out long ago too

I am on the hunt now for a couple of 6 inch cast iron flanges, my local salesmen dont think
they even make them that long any more..... 

has anyone seen them on line anywhere??


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> we used to have it laying around long ago but the okaum does good enough
> also used to have a roll of asbestos rope laying around too , it was used to
> caulk in cracks on boiler doors... we threw that out long ago too
> 
> ...


We have a couple at our shop but they aren't for sale. We keep them for this one commercial operation which has several dozen. We change one once every couple years.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> We have a couple at our shop but they aren't for sale. We keep them for this one commercial operation which has several dozen. We change one once every couple years.


I found out that Jones stevens makes them , I found them on line for about 35 bucks each... even supposed to be 
available at home depot but I find that hard to believe










JONES STEPHENS 4 in. x 6 in. Inside Caulk Cast Iron Water Closet Flange Extra Heavy with 5 in. ID and No Bead C42460 - The Home Depot


Jones Stephens has built its reputation over the years as a leader in the plumbing industry, providing the market with thousands of products to complete any project. If you need it, we got it. The Water



www.homedepot.com


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> I found out that Jones stevens makes them , I found them on line for about 35 bucks each... even supposed to be
> available at home depot but I find that hard to believe
> 
> 
> ...


What's wrong it's you??Home Depot has everything lolololololol


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> What's wrong it's you??Home Depot has everything lolololololol


Yes, that they do......
or they claim to have


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