# Lowes



## Plumbbum0203 (Dec 14, 2011)

Lowes is cleaning out there csst gas pipe. A move in the right direction Giving this one back to the plumber.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

The potential of a disaster and the threat of lawsuits from homeowners and neighbors probably has them scared ****/ess.....

they would be named in every accident that happens with that product.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

I found it interesting as well when I went to Home Depot for a 3/4" adapter (I'm working a big church remodel and one of the roof units has a tracpipe run) and they no longer carry it at my local one :thumbsup:


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Plumbbum0203 said:


> Lowes is cleaning out there csst gas pipe. A move in the right direction Giving this one back to the plumber.


Next up, Water Heaters.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> I found it interesting as well when I went to Home Depot for a 3/4" adapter (I'm working a big church remodel and one of the roof units has a tracpipe run) and they no longer carry it at my local one :thumbsup:


I would never consider using a HD fitting on Counterstrike pipe. For more reasons than 1.


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

plumberkc said:


> Next up, Water Heaters.


Yep. Rennai tankless is about to be sold at your local Lowe's store, according to a Rennai service trainer I attended a class with yesterday.


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## Drumma Plumma (Jun 5, 2012)

Well then Rinnai just sold their soul like Rheem did 20 years ago when they started supplying to HD.

Regarding the CSST, I've never used the stuff. Expectations are to hard pipe most all gas in black steel here. I should probably read up on it more , but I will black pipe any gas before CSST. I remember years ago the Cali contingent on the Ridgid forum being all up in arms when HD started carrying CSST because they didn't make the customer take the "installation class." Lol, what BS! The " installation class" is a 10 minute YouTube video . Ditto for Pex like Uponor and the like. Lowes is not "giving it back to the plumber " in my opinion. Just giving up on a product. Next week will be pipe threading instructionals at the store . Heck, they already cut and thread pipe in the store for you now!


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Cajunhiker said:


> Yep. Rennai tankless is about to be sold at your local Lowe's store, according to a Rennai service trainer I attended a class with yesterday.


You mean they are no longer going to be selling 'Jacuzzi' tankless heaters? :sad:


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> You mean they are no longer going to be selling 'Jacuzzi' tankless heaters? :sad:


I guess when Rinnai moves in, Jacuzzi will move out.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Cajunhiker said:


> Yep. Rennai tankless is about to be sold at your local Lowe's store, according to a Rennai service trainer I attended a class with yesterday.


I have a Rinnai RU98i in my house and can say first hand that it doesn't compare to a traditional tank water heater. It's only a year old and has already had it's issues. Not to mention the annual maintenance that's required.


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

How about the fact that CSST is not approved for gas here, and Lowes has been selling it for years. Any installations are an immediate Class A hazard, as well as being guilty of "Work Without A Permit" violation.
Now try finding a licensed plumber here who has not racked up at at least a few fines for "violations".


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

plumberkc said:


> I have a Rinnai RU98i in my house and can say first hand that it doesn't compare to a traditional tank water heater. It's only a year old and has already had it's issues. Not to mention the annual maintenance that's required.


Couple of things I learned from that class:
1. It all depends on water usage as to how these tankless units perform. For example, lots of homes with lots of people living there and with large garden style tubs probably need 2 tankless units plumbed in parallel. 
2. As the temperature is increased to 140 or higher, the water volume coming out of a faucet will decrease.
3. "Instant" water heater is a mis-nomer. 
4. Don't mess with the DIP switches unless you know what you are doing. 
5. Correct venting for interior units are critical to their performance.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Sorry to see them go but the annual maintenance was not required with an Eternal. Stainless steel heat exchangers are huge help in this area.

As for performance, my customers many happy responses to the 19.5 gpm Eternal's performance are all saved as they were all very impressed and said so in emails. As for the one in my house, I will state it blow's away the 50 gal gas heater's performance that was there originally. The Eternal flat puts out some hot water.

Again, a shame they are gone as they had some very unique ideas. Hard to find a replacement, at the moments Rennais and Naviens are our preferred makes.

Anyway, I'm always surprised to see a plumber consider a tank heater a better performer or option. We have installed many many tankless heaters and only have satisfied performance feedback, not 1 single complaint about performance.


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

What is the brand you will use now?


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> Sorry to see them go but the annual maintenance was not required with an Eternal. Stainless steel heat exchangers are huge help in this area. As for performance, my customers many happy responses to the 19.5 gpm Eternal's performance are all saved as they were all very impressed and said so in emails. As for the one in my house, I will state it blow's away the 50 gal gas heater's performance that was there originally. The Eternal flat puts out some hot water. Again, a shame they are gone as they had some very unique ideas. Hard to find a replacement, at the moments Rennais and Naviens are our preferred makes. Anyway, I'm always surprised to see a plumber consider a tank heater a better performer or option. We have installed many many tankless heaters and only have satisfied performance feedback, not 1 single complaint about performance.


I never heard of Eternal. Wow, 19.5 gpm. That's incredible. 

That Rinnai Level III class was free (with free lunch). Google for a class near you. I took it because I was one of those guys who could install tankless but couldn't service them. I feel a 100 times more confident about trying to troubleshoot a tankless now. Got the book of error codes, too. 

Rinnai rep says tankless are flying off the shelves since the fatter tank types came on the market. And when the DIY folks from Lowes start buying these things, I'm thinking lots of money to be made fixing the DIY screw ups. Cha-Ching!


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Cajunhiker said:


> I never heard of Eternal. Wow, 19.5 gpm. That's incredible.


They have went out of business. 19.5 gpm is partially due to no flow control based upon temperature requirements. The common design throttles water allowing it to heat up to until it reaches the instructed temperature. Meaning your 9.5 gpm heater is really 4 or 5 gpm in the winter.

Eternal allows the water to flow through full bore but in the dead of winter heavy use will cause the temperature to drop.

Pick your poison in other words when you get to a high temperature rise situation.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

stecar said:


> What is the brand you will use now?


We installed Noritz for a few years and I like their quality but I don't have ready access to them at the moment. So we are mostly installing Rennai.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Cajunhiker said:


> I never heard of Eternal. Wow, 19.5 gpm. That's incredible. That Rinnai Level III class was free (with free lunch). Google for a class near you. I took it because I was one of those guys who could install tankless but couldn't service them. I feel a 100 times more confident about trying to troubleshoot a tankless now. Got the book of error codes, too. Rinnai rep says tankless are flying off the shelves since the fatter tank types came on the market. And when the DIY folks from Lowes start buying these things, I'm thinking lots of money to be made fixing the DIY screw ups. Cha-Ching!


I don't see any profit in fixing DIY phac-ups. They are just going to ***** about how much you charge.

As for the tankless flying off the shelves since the tank size has increased, I just haven't seen that here in KC. I've only had one job out of about 150 that didn't have the space. 

If you want efficiency, go with a power vent. They cost 2/3 the amount and have a more reliable source of heat with less maintenance. 

The thing I hate about my tankless is the delay in hot water deliverance to the fixture. I'm on a crawl space and it takes forever for the water to get hot since switching to tankless. 

I'll never install another Rinnai, Navien will be my go to brand from here on out. In all honesty though, over 95% of the people that ask about tankless are easily convinced to go atmospheric.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

dhal22 said:


> Meaning your 9.5 gpm heater is really 4 or 5 gpm in the winter.


This is 100% accurate, not to mention the loss of efficiency when temp rise increases.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

plumberkc said:


> The thing I hate about my tankless is the delay in hot water deliverance to the fixture. I'm on a crawl space and it takes forever for the water to get hot since switching to tankless.


Why does the hot water delivery take longer now with a tankless vs when you had a tank heater?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

plumberkc said:


> This is 100% accurate, not to mention the loss of efficiency when temp rise increases.



I dont mean to be a smart ass.... but why did you install a tankless heater in your own home... when you already KNOW that they totally suck>??? 

They tried to give me a Rannia for free a long time ago but I did not think my wife would be happy with the whole experiment and adventure and I felt that it would be like sticking the thing in my own ass with all the trouble it would cause....

was this basically an experiment to see for yourself how badly they suck or was is just something you had to try for shi/s and giggles....???

How is your wife handling it so far...???? 

are you about ready to throw it out and go back with a 50 gas??

just wondering what your next move will be:blink:


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## paultheplumber1 (May 1, 2014)

Around here you need to be certified to purchase counterstrike. It's not sold in any home improvement stores. If I want the pipe or any fittings you must take the class to get certified.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Master Mark said:


> I dont mean to be a smart ass.... but why did you install a tankless heater in your own home... when you already KNOW that they totally suck>??? They tried to give me a Rannia for free a long time ago but I did not think my wife would be happy with the whole experiment and adventure and I felt that it would be like sticking the thing in my own ass with all the trouble it would cause.... was this basically an experiment to see for yourself how badly they suck or was is just something you had to try for shi/s and giggles....??? How is your wife handling it so far...???? are you about ready to throw it out and go back with a 50 gas?? just wondering what your next move will be:blink:


My water heater and furnace are on the first floor inside a closet. The furnace would not be serviced without draining down and removing the tank. I'm also on propane which can be as much as twice the amount as natural gas.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

dhal22 said:


> Why does the hot water delivery take longer now with a tankless vs when you had a tank heater?


The first second or two of a tankless kicking on will second cold water through. I'm also on a crawl and it gets very cold down there in the winter. Instead of running at 140, I keep it at 120.


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

plumberkc said:


> I don't see any profit in fixing DIY phac-ups. They are just going to ***** about how much you charge. As for the tankless flying off the shelves since the tank size has increased, I just haven't seen that here in KC. I've only had one job out of about 150 that didn't have the space. If you want efficiency, go with a power vent. They cost 2/3 the amount and have a more reliable source of heat with less maintenance. The thing I hate about my tankless is the delay in hot water deliverance to the fixture. I'm on a crawl space and it takes forever for the water to get hot since switching to tankless. I'll never install another Rinnai, Navien will be my go to brand from here on out. In all honesty though, over 95% of the people that ask about tankless are easily convinced to go atmospheric.


Tomatoe ... Tomato 
Rinnai, Navien, Noritz, Takagi - all pretty much the same - no significant differences in technology, energy efficiencies or gpm. And yep, I'll gladly service those purchased by DIYers. Btw, I prefer tanks too, but tankless has a market, also.


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## fixitright (Jan 5, 2012)

*CSST Lawsuits*

Sometimes it goes BOOM :furious:


http://www.forthepeople.com/class-action-lawyers/csst-lawsuits/


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

140 failures isn't a lot considering.


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## fixitright (Jan 5, 2012)

dhal22 said:


> 140 failures isn't a lot considering.


Just to play Devils Advocate:

Think how many things have been shut down for much less.

Medical devices, food poisoning, bad water, bad drugs ................


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> They have went out of business. 19.5 gpm is partially due to no flow control based upon temperature requirements. The common design throttles water allowing it to heat up to until it reaches the instructed temperature. Meaning your 9.5 gpm heater is really 4 or 5 gpm in the winter.
> 
> Eternal allows the water to flow through full bore but in the dead of winter heavy use will cause the temperature to drop.
> 
> Pick your poison in other words when you get to a high temperature rise situation.


What your saying is its OK and a benefit to get insufficient water temps and dangerous fluctuating temps to the fixtures because it can flow at higher rates due to no modulating flow control?

They went out of business for a few reasons, this was one of them.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> What your saying is its OK and a benefit to get insufficient water temps and dangerous fluctuating temps to the fixtures because it can flow at higher rates due to no modulating flow control?
> 
> They went out of business for a few reasons, this was one of them.


I have one at my house and it's an awesome heater. Never any fluctuations or cold water. I walked in my bathroom after a long day of hard workin the dead of winter a couple of years ago and one of my sons was using our shower. Wishing to use the jetted tub I turned on the water full blast and waited to see if it affected the 2 head shower. None. I left and walked into the kitchen and turned on the faucet and then returned to the bathroom, my son is happily showering away.

I have a tub filling at least 5 gpm, 2 shower heads running at 5?gpm plus a kitchen faucet at 2 gpm? so 12 gpm or so in the dead of winter with zero temperature loss.

Not one customer has ever complained about fluctuating water or cold water. 

And btw that was a pretty stupid comment. Considering.


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## Absaroka Joe (Mar 30, 2013)

It wouldn't hurt my feelings if the supply houses would stop selling csst. We won't use the stuff for all the obvious reasons and I don't like competing against those who have no fear.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> I have one at my house and it's an awesome heater. Never any fluctuations or cold water. I walked in my bathroom after a long day of hard workin the dead of winter a couple of years ago and one of my sons was using our shower. Wishing to use the jetted tub I turned on the water full blast and waited to see if it affected the 2 head shower. None. I left and walked into the kitchen and turned on the faucet and then returned to the bathroom, my son is happily showering away.
> 
> I have a tub filling at least 5 gpm, 2 shower heads running at 5?gpm plus a kitchen faucet at 2 gpm? so 12 gpm or so in the dead of winter with zero temperature loss.
> 
> ...


 Lets do the math:
We know its a 199,000 BTU heater right? AHRI lists the comb efficiency at 94%
Your "dead of winter" water temps are fortunately better than most tankless users so not mislead any one that these or any tankless are magic with their water flows.

If we use 55 degrees as your incoming water temp heated to 110 (adequate temp to fill a cool tub,, lower than most desire for laundry and dishwashers) 

199,000 / 50 degrees rise (110 degrees minus 55) / 8.34 lb of water / 60 min x .94 efficiency = 7.48 Maximum GPM that heater can produce without dipping below 110 degrees

That's why the northern users with lets say a 79 degree rise would only get 5.34 GPM. 

Now if you were truly flowing 12 GPM that would be a maximum of 31 degree rise. probably not acceptable unless your cold water was above 79 degrees (mid summer perhaps) 

Stupid comment? Why, defensive? 
The tankless market is quite large in the north, they wouldn't put up with insufficient hot water, one reason the eternal concept failed as I mentioned. (besides heat exchanger, boards, valves, noisy, no parts, so tech support, poor warranty support.........)


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

So the Eternal is 98% efficient, or so they say. My combustion analyzer has shown 99% many times and I don't think our dead of winter water temp gets to 55 degrees so your math is off. 

Regardless, I've seen multiple valves, faucets running in my house simultaneously many times and all had plenty of very hot water every time so I don't care about how many gallons it is. The fact is my tankless puts out plenty of hot water. And I've got many many customer emails commenting on the impressive hot water performance, a fairly important fact. 

Noisy? Not any of the Eternals we installed. Just a light blower noise.
Failed heat exchangers, boards, valves? Nope, none of ours, are we talking about the same heater?
Tech support was fine, parts weren't an issue until they closed. Yes I have replaced a few mixing valves.
I've pulled out a few rinnais this year so no brand is perfect.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> So the Eternal is 98% efficient, or so they say. My combustion analyzer has shown 99% many times and I don't think our dead of winter water temp gets to 55 degrees so your math is off.
> 
> Regardless, I've seen multiple valves, faucets running in my house simultaneously many times and all had plenty of very hot water every time so I don't care about how many gallons it is. The fact is my tankless puts out plenty of hot water. And I've got many many customer emails commenting on the impressive hot water performance, a fairly important fact.
> 
> ...


Awesome, but they did close their doors and turn their backs on all contractors. Just wait it's coming for you too, best you can do is have a plan and be ready.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

I have a few extras stored for existing customer support but no longer installing them. We've accumulated a few warranty failures units and holding on to them for parts as well. 

Oddly enough we are still getting checks from eternal. A recall part pays $150 a unit, we sent several invoices before they closed and I thought we were never going to see the money. Worse, we replaced a unit under warranty and invoiced the approved $1750, then they closed their doors. No way were we going to see that paid but we have. Even last week we received a check. I assume something is still functional at their headquarters.


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## mtfallsmikey (Jan 11, 2010)

With CSST going bye-bye..... Anyone interested in some old unused QEST fittings?


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## johnmeto (Oct 13, 2015)

I thought that it was intriguing too when I went to Home Depot for a 3/4" connector and they no more convey it at my neighborhood one.


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