# Epoxy liner ripped out during cleaning



## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

One of the drain cleaning companies I refer work to was recently telling me about a customer who had an epoxy liner installed about 6 months back. There were apparently some low spots and the homeowner ended up with a blockage. He called the drain cleaning company to clear the line and they ended up pulling out the epoxy liner with their cable. 

Has anyone else heard of something like this happening? I'm guessing he used too aggressive of a bit or something.


----------



## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

Liners can and can not bound to the host pipe (grease) usually bends in the line would hold it in place but the cutter really should have had nothing to catch on to even bring the liner out. I think if you actually tried to repeat that it would be near impossible. But it does not sound like it should have even been lined in the first place because if it had a belly then lining just will clone the host pipe.


----------



## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

I don't think the entire liner came out but only the inner plastic flow channel. Happened to Plungerman one time and he posted pics. 

When I was at the flow expo last year, one of the lining companies said you should never snake or jet a lined pipe. There was also a company selling plastic warning signs that fit under a 4" c/o plug that the sewer was lined.


----------



## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

gear junkie said:


> I don't think the entire liner came out but only the inner plastic flow channel. Happened to Plungerman one time and he posted pics.
> 
> When I was at the flow expo last year, one of the lining companies said you should never snake or jet a lined pipe. There was also a company selling plastic warning signs that fit under a 4" c/o plug that the sewer was lined.



So if it's lined and blocked, how do you free the line without jetter or snake?


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

gear junkie said:


> I don't think the entire liner came out but only the inner plastic flow channel. Happened to Plungerman one time and he posted pics.
> 
> When I was at the flow expo last year, one of the lining companies said you should never snake or jet a lined pipe. There was also a company selling plastic warning signs that fit under a 4" c/o plug that the sewer was lined.


then how do the lining companies expect a stoppage to be cleaned?


----------



## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

They said if you ever did have a stoppage in a lined pipe, it would be soft and you could just push it


----------



## wharfrat (Nov 1, 2014)

I've seen it pulled out before.

Lining companies tell me it won't ever stop up if lined. 

The industry definitely needs clean out caps for rehabed sewers.


----------



## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

Hmmmm.... i line and have never seen this. Was the liner installed faulty? If you put a liner in with ground water present the resins can wash out and leave soft spots. Thats why you would use a pre- liner. Some of the cheaper lining materials are taped, not stitched and that could come into play
I have jetted on our installs and havent seen any difference, but we also use epoxy resins not styrene or ester base.


----------



## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

gear junkie said:


> I don't think the entire liner came out but only the inner plastic flow channel. Happened to Plungerman one time and he posted pics. When I was at the flow expo last year, one of the lining companies said you should never snake or jet a lined pipe. There was also a company selling plastic warning signs that fit under a 4" c/o plug that the sewer was lined.


The plumber the snaked the line is being threatened with a lawsuit. I think they are asking him to pay $6,000 to cover the cost of the liner.


----------



## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

Once again, how do you clear a lined pipe if it's blocked?


----------



## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

rwh said:


> Once again, how do you clear a lined pipe if it's blocked?


 I'm only guessing but I would jet at low pressure.i would imagine if it has been lined it most likely is a soft blockage. 

I'm would bet bulldozer & Cuda have a real answer.


----------



## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

I will run my jet in a liner tomorrow and see. Im sure nothing will happen. Like i said, there has to be another kind of issue. Most city mains are lined and they rod and jet those.


----------



## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

If a liner is not properly resinated or "Wet Out" i could see this happening. When you apply the resins to the liner your suppose to run the liner through a calibrated roller. Some guys use sof rollers, some guys go thinner to save on resins. We use a rolling table. Were on a municipal project right now and we have to submit cut offs from every liner. We have 75 submitted and not one failure on design/ build or structural integrity. I can run my picote in the liner with a chain flail and yes it will scratch the liner but wont rip it out. the same with pvc pipe. The only way i could pull out a seam tape would be if i half assed resinated the liner and it wasnt saturated or vacuumed before installation. I ran my warthog through one of our liners to clear a blockage in a part of the sewer that wasnt lined. Then we ran the camera through and i didnt notice any damage to the liner. Sounds like a faulty install to me.


----------



## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

bulldozer said:


> Hmmmm.... i line and have never seen this. Was the liner installed faulty? If you put a liner in with ground water present the resins can wash out and leave soft spots. Thats why you would use a pre- liner. Some of the cheaper lining materials are taped, not stitched and that could come into play
> I have jetted on our installs and havent seen any difference, *but we also use epoxy resins not styrene or ester base*.


Why would styrene or ester base resins be used?


----------



## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

Way cheaper! True epoxy resins cost more.


----------



## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

Unfortunately in the lining world, alot of us have a long ways to go on our understanding of resins, hardeners,and other additives. Unfortunately we must rely on the manufacturer for installation specs, etc. As lining matures in this country we get better and better about proper, vacuuming, wet out, installation pressure, and curing. Im not personally a fan of ambient curing but some guys are. I prefer hot water or steam to cure and control hardening. Adding the heat allows the resins to migrate to areas that might be thin on resin. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Good thread! 

I'm still not sold on liners, they are nonexistent here, I've never seen 1, we just dig and replace, I can see its usefulness in the city, under concrete. But if they can't be rodded or jetted, im out


----------



## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Found this http://www.aoc-resins.com/images/uploads/tech_non-styrene_options_CIPP.pdf

Trying hard to absorb it all.


----------



## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

Just to make your head spin even more Ben just when you think you understand resins the next step in lining evolution will probably be local and national laws on what lining resins are allowed to be used. There have been a lot of tests done to the water downstream after a liner is installed that showed too high of contamination levels from the lining job, other studies have shown that it may even leach for some time. What has happened in the past to other industries like painting as an example is the good paint that does the best job (oil base) is outlawed and then the installers will be left with a terrible product (like latex paint) that is environmentally friendly but is not as hard or doesn't last or stand up to human waste in our case. Right now a real good quality resin and wet out on a liner will make it as tough as PVC pipe and a snake should not even be an issue.


----------



## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

Spot on Cuda! If you go under Pipe Lining Supply they have many,many articles and blogs about resins, installation and failures. Hohn Heisler knows his stuff and is a leader in the industry! He educates not just on his products or equipment but across the board. I look forward to receiving his weekly blogs as they are unbias and educational.


----------



## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

GREENPLUM said:


> Good thread!
> 
> I'm still not sold on liners, they are nonexistent here, I've never seen 1, we just dig and replace, I can see its usefulness in the city, under concrete. But if they can't be rodded or jetted, im out


Dont worry, coming to your neighborhood soon! There not the cure all but they have their place. Being in the sewer business for 25 years i have to say if conditions permit i would rather line a sewer that is 8 ft. Deep at the house and 10-12 feet at the street then open cut any day! Open cut work can be dangerous work even when done safely. Trust me ive been doing it all my life! I know certain parts of the country have shallow sewers but were we are at our water services average 6 ft.


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Time will tell, but I don't think it's gonna happen soon

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

Unfortunately in every industry progress takes over. Good or bad it takes over. Im not saying its the only tool in the box but i am saying a tradesman needs many tools in his box! I still open cut jobs, pipe burst, pipe patch, even on grade bore. None are a cure all or better then another but all of them have saved my customers tons of money, social and environmental impact, saved lives, and just the financial ass ache of replacing driveways, roads, parking lots, shutting down production facilities, and countless trees.


----------



## brad7596 (Nov 1, 2008)

over here our water authorities put tags on the entry to the mains to state relining has occurred and jetting only 

I feel sorry for the plumber that ripped it out if its unknown its down there how is supposed to know?

I don't think relining is infallible , ive had instances where it has collapsed or let go & moved downstream. 
I'm probably stubborn but I think the only way to repair a vit clay drain is to renew in pvc


----------



## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

brad7596 said:


> over here our water authorities put tags on the entry to the mains to state relining has occurred and jetting only
> 
> I feel sorry for the plumber that ripped it out if its unknown its down there how is supposed to know?
> 
> ...


Are you referring to lateral? If so how could this happen....I almost never see a lateral tied into the main with a tee. It's almost always a wye which would stop the liner....yes/no?


----------



## brad7596 (Nov 1, 2008)

yes we tie in with 45 junctions. that one the slipped or moved was a straight run of main, it took me while to work out why I kept getting called to the same house for blocked drain downstream from the connection point. 

I never got an answer from the water board, just told it had moved/slipped blocking off the junctions. I don't know what happened after that as mains are the responsibility of water companies.


----------



## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

I can see a collapsed liner from a faulty install. But thats an installation problem. But when we are holding inversion were at 8-10 pnds. For 11/2 to 2 hrs. With heat applied. Unless the pipe wasnt properly cleaned i cant see how the liner can move. Unless someone shoots a 4 inch liner through a 5 or 6 inch pipe.


----------



## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Probably water in the low spot when they lined it. I've seen spots not take when water was left in the line. 

I have tried to pull a line when our cal tube went to crap almost all the way in. We could not pull it by hand, it took a truck with it tied to the hitch. It was over 110 so once the liner was in it cured fast.


----------



## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

A huge takeaway for me on this thread is you can't buy into lining. Gotta have the experience and do it right.....also means you'll probably end up making a lot of mistakes. This is the biggest reason why I'll never get into this line of work.


----------



## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

Its not bad. You just have to do your homework. Learn from good installers, ask questions all the time, no when yo bail! I was a nervous wreck when we first started lining but i quickly realized freaking out is the worst thing you can do! Now, years later its easy cheesy, not quite as physical as pipe bursting or quite as good. Do we make mistakes? Hell yes we do! But you can learn to limit them by proper training and educating yourself on the dos and donts. Were averaging roughly a 1000 ft. A week on lateral installs and our last failure which we caught before launch was the compressor ran out of fuel. Things happen.


----------



## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

This afternoon I tried to pull 10 feet of resin soaked linerer just a few inches back that was in some rough cast iron. I couldn't do it. It was no big deal so I didn't give it the old I flat out better make it happen try. I couldn't imagine pulling a cured liner out with a sewer machine after that incident.

One thing I know everything has its issues. I have seen enough broken PVC underground to know nothing is perfect.


----------



## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

gear junkie said:


> This is the biggest reason why I'll never get into this line of work.


 Funny I remember somebody else saying that. I wonder if Cuda remembers.


----------



## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

gear junkie said:


> A huge takeaway for me on this thread is you can't buy into lining. Gotta have the experience and do it right.....also means you'll probably end up making a lot of mistakes. This is the biggest reason why I'll never get into this line of work.


This particular installation was done by the biggest outfit in KC and their $99 main line "special" brings in lots of sewer work. 

They definitely pride themselves on their extensive training program, I'm guessing that it's primarily based on sales and not technical training.


----------



## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

saysflushable said:


> Funny I remember somebody else saying that. I wonder if Cuda remembers.


I have changed my mind on lots of things, I remember in 1980 I was driving my 68 charger and gas was getting near a buck a gallon and I said "If it gets over a dollar I'm never driving again" well we all know how that worked out lol.


----------



## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

gear junkie said:


> I don't think the entire liner came out but only the inner plastic flow channel. Happened to Plungerman one time and he posted pics.
> 
> When I was at the flow expo last year, one of the lining companies said you should never snake or jet a lined pipe. There was also a company selling plastic warning signs that fit under a 4" c/o plug that the sewer was lined.


I do lots of lining I can't tell how many thousands of linear ft I've done. What I see is lots of people think they can get into it by simply buying the equipment and materials. The training you get is mediocre at best once you compare it to real life situations on the job!

You learn by experience and there are things just like everything else, that you can only learn by experience tricks of the trade as we say. With the above said the problems that I have seen is by installer mistake and not the materials. Most guys unfamiliar with lining when they snake a line will think they are pulling a liner out!

The true is what you are pulling is a very thin inner bladder that holds resin in place while the liner cures. It is as thick as a plastic bag. Picture the liner being on the outside of a plastic bag once dried it is as good as abs or pvc with a 3mm or 4.5mm thickness and you can remove the plastic bag if you snake. Thickness of a liner is about the same as abs. The bladder stays the same as thick as a plastic bag when dried it is only there to keep resin in place again while hardening or curing. When you snake a liner you will pull out the bladder this is why it is not recommended to snake a lined pipe. The actual liner stays in place and it is very solid. Of course if you are not familiar with liners you will think of my God I just pulled a liner out. Pulling a liner out will be the same as pulling ABS out with a snake it won't happen.

Poor installation is the main problem. There are many steps to get the liner right and you only get one chance to get it right. There are different types of resins. The key is proper amount of resin and hardener for the length of liner to be installed. Proper mixing which has to be timed, if you mix less or if you mix for more time than you are suppose to it will fail as in it won't harden or it will harden before installation or won't harden properly. You need to have a clean host line always hydro jet before lining for the best results. Getting the air out of the liner before wet out is very important (vacuum prior wet out and while wet out) . The type of roller you use to wet out is also key. Proper air pressure from a proper compressor. There are too many small details that can be overlooked by someone with no experience.

My opinion is that it was not a liner that was pulled out but a bladder. If in fact it was a liner I'm not 100% sure but 1000% sure it was not installed properly. I can easily diffuse the liners don't work idea to those attending my demo day on April the 30th. Liners are very good based on proper installation and the resin being use:thumbsup:


----------



## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

Spot on! Cj!


----------



## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

If any of it pulled out it wasn't fully wet out.


----------



## mpm (Nov 16, 2010)

Unless you're using 100% solids epoxy, that liner will shrink when curing and can be pulled out.


----------



## Standard Drain (Feb 17, 2016)

Ive been looking at Bursting, Cure in place liners and patch liners for some time now. What would your guess be on a start up cost for all the above?

120k? 

Im a long way off, but I think(im a slow learner)I will just start with the small sectional cure liner repairs before I dive in. But in my area there is NOBODY doing this. So I am seeing the benifits of being on the cutting edge in my area of doing this. 

Also, something I think about when I notice that there is nobody doing this in my area is: Is the need that great? 

thanks


----------



## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

Hmmm..... not quite that much. If you shop around, buy used and dont go crazy on the extras i say half of that. Theres some excellent new systems out there that are pretty reasonable. Everyone has their favorite manufacturer but ive learned to keep an eye on the smaller companies who are coming on scene.


----------

