# prv and threm tank scam



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

A Plumbing company in town works for one of the american home sheild places, 
so they go out to a ladies home today to check out a leaking 50 gallon electric heater....

the water heater is bad and will be changed for the deductable of $60 bucks... 
but they claim that the pressure is too high in the home and they need a prv
valve and a thermal expansion tank on the heater...

the pressure was only 80psi which is average pressure 
I have 110psi....at my home and have it kicked down to 80 here...

anyway they say to meet code we are going to have to charge you
$$ 800 bucks for the prv and therm tank but of course the water heater is free:blink:

she politely paid the 60 bucks and they left...


I personally dont think that 80psi is high water pressure, 
and they are pulling a sort of dirty scam on the customer....

Well maybe its ok to hide behind the code and stick someone in the ass 
like this, but I got to live with myself and look myself in the mirror every 
morning... 


so at what pressure is it wise to do this,
and what price is considered a fair one for these items???


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

PRV, is that pressure relief valve or pressure regulator valve?


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## drain surgeon (Jun 17, 2010)

Code says pressure cannot be OVER 80 PSI. Also there needs to be a thermal expantion tank if there is a PRV in place The price depends on location of PRV.
If in a crawl or a basement 800.00 seems high but if it is located in the yard ahead of the meter and requires some dig work and a yard box its not far off the mark


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*pressure reducing vale*



gitnerdun said:


> PRV, is that pressure relief valve or pressure regulator valve?


pressure reducing valve...they can be picked up for about 45 bucks at lowes


on average this is not a hard thing to install where the main stop comes
 into the home near the heater in the same room....I am ont talking about digging 
up the front yard or doing a 100 foot crawl across a 18 inch crawl space to install one
at the incomming main....



anyway, we quoted not to exceed 475 for both along with the install of the heater.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

80 really ain't that high, our code sais over 80 and a prv is needed.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Codes across the US have it in the code about pressures over 80psi require protection.


Every device made in plumbing was engineered/designed to operate at 60psi.


Of course, they'll work at lower and higher pressures with higher pressures causing issues.


All gpm flows are dictated at 60psi. 


When customers are on the fence about this, I ask them, "So you go and put extra air in your tires? Why not? It's rubber, same as all the washers in your home you're wearing out."

And if that doesn't work, I show them a picture of this







​


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

80 psi = "ok" water pressure, no regulator needed.

If they wanna charge $800.00 for a regulator and thermal expansion tank, that's their business, but to say the PRV is needed when it's not.... is not ok.:no:

I am surprised they didn't try to charge her for a sediment trap, too. (yes, I know it said electric, but you never know with some people)


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> A Plumbing company in town works for one of the american home sheild places,
> so they go out to a ladies home today to check out a leaking 50 gallon electric heater....
> 
> the water heater is bad and will be changed for the deductable of $60 bucks...
> ...


I can't quote the exact part of the code here in Indiana because the book is in the van, but I am certain it states that water pressure is not to exceed 80 PSI., and if so a PRV must be installed. They were probably out of line, but not that out of line, per code. 

If I remember tomorrow I will look it up. Don't hold your breath.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

In Arkansas a regulator is required if more than 75psi.

An expansion tank depending on how you interpert the code it is also required.

Some of your water heater manufacturers either suggest or require an expansion tank be installed


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

So at the point in time when you measured the pressure it was 80 psi.

Did you use a Lazy hand gauge and measure pressure for an extended period?
You do realize that water system pressures can fluctuate as the water company pumps water through the system filling tanks.


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## drain surgeon (Jun 17, 2010)

Wouldnt it be nice if the national code was realy national and all inspectors were on the same page. Just sayin.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*make your living however you wish*



Redwood said:


> So at the point in time when you measured the pressure it was 80 psi.
> 
> Did you use a Lazy hand gauge and measure pressure for an extended period?
> You do realize that water system pressures can fluctuate as the water company pumps water through the system filling tanks.


I realize that water pressure can rise a lot at night.
when no one is useing water...

another company went to this home and did the 
reading probably around high noon... wether it be the high
 or low for the day, is only half of the equation...

having a lady with 4 kids over a barrell with no hot water and
 sticking it to her for 800 bucks, quoting the code book like its the bible .......
is totally your decison to do things this way ..... 


you can charge whatever you want to for your services,, it is a free country... 
so why not charge $1200 if you get a hefty %45 comission 
on the labor, then that is great if they go for it....

all i am saying is that she smelled a rat and asked them to leave...:thumbsup:.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Redwood said:


> So at the point in time when you measured the pressure it was 80 psi.
> 
> Did you use a Lazy hand gauge and measure pressure for an extended period?
> You do realize that water system pressures can fluctuate as the water company pumps water through the system filling tanks.



Maybe she already had a regulator in an unknown location?


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

Ive been putting in prvs with expansion bypasses built in..


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Plumbworker said:


> Ive been putting in prvs with expansion bypasses built in..


Which only works when the supplied pressure is low enough....:blink:


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Unbelievable. The IPC says max 80 psi. It says this for a reason. I replace more prv than any other single plumbing task. Of course if you are ok with charging the ho over and over again every 6 months or year for pressure related problems e.g. fill valves that won't shut off, dripping faucets, etc., then by all means, don't sell them a prv or a txt. 

As for the cost of $800, in light of the fact that the warranty company wants to pay $450 for a tank replacement (I confess it's been about 3 or 4 years since I talked to any warranty company but that's what they were willing to pay me and *****ed incessantly about that) then $800 is certainly not too high for necessary, code required, equipment. In fact, if you add the $800 to the $450 it's really as if they are getting the prv and txt for free. In my opinion, and it is strictly my opinion, no water heater change out should cost less than $1200 (maybe slightly less for electric but we are overwhelmingly ng here).


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

drain surgeon said:


> Wouldnt it be nice if the national code was realy national and all inspectors were on the same page. Just sayin.



Naah, I don't want to have to bury pipes as deep as those Minnesota frost lines.


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## LEAD INGOT (Jul 15, 2009)

This gauge left over night will solve any peak/ non peak questions on max house pressure. Tells the truth everytime.


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## Dave4260 (Oct 18, 2011)

Water pressure is like blood pressure, will it work at 80psi? Sure for years. Is it good on the pipes? No. Or valves, ice maker, dishwasher, sinks or any thing in the system . 80 psi today95 psi tonight. It will increase at night. I would install a prv. They come preset at50 psi for a reason.... My opinion.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

LEAD INGOT said:


> This gauge left over night will solve any peak/ non peak questions on max house pressure. Tells the truth everytime.


I have that exact gauge sitting on the dashboard of my truck... :thumbup:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

LEAD INGOT said:


> This gauge left over night will solve any peak/ non peak questions on max house pressure. Tells the truth everytime.


 




With the 'lazy' hand, I think they call it.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

I have the same gauge Also, sitting in my toolbag. Comes in handy, especially for well systems.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Mississippiplum said:


> I have the same gauge Also, sitting in my toolbag. Comes in handy, especially for well systems.


Why especially for well systems?


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

ChrisConnor said:


> Why especially for well systems?


Alot of times when there is bounce back problems, the gauge can be helpful, also if the primary gauge at the p-tank is acting up then the gauge featured in this thread can be used to find cut out pressure easily. and like I was saying about bounce back, this gauge can be used to determine how bad the bounce back actually is. And in situations were there is an irrigation system with hammering valves this gauge can determine how bad of a pressure wave the situation is causing.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Mississippiplum said:


> Alot of times when there is bounce back problems, the gauge can be helpful, also if the primary gauge at the p-tank is acting up then the gauge featured in this thread can be used to find cut out pressure easily. and like I was saying about bounce back, this gauge can be used to determine how bad the bounce back actually is. And in situations were there is an irrigation system with hammering valves this gauge can determine how bad of a pressure wave the situation is causing.


So what you are saying is for some reason you try to measure water hammer at the source of the water supply? :whistling2:


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Redwood said:


> So what you are saying is for some reason you try to measure water hammer at the source of the water supply? :whistling2:


Bounce back starts at the p-tank. The source of supply could be a well 100 ft down yonder. But bounce back starts at the tank, and it Is imparitive that we know how bad it is so we can properly combat it, bounce back can cause serious damage if the case is severe.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Mississippiplum said:


> Bounce back starts at the p-tank. The source of supply could be a well 100 ft down yonder. But bounce back starts at the tank, and it Is imparitive that we know how bad it is so we can properly combat it, bounce back can cause serious damage if the case is severe.


No it starts at the fast acting valve when it closes, has some of it absorbed by the pressure tank and ends at the check valve....


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Redwood said:


> No it starts at the fast acting valve when it closes, has some of it absorbed by the pressure tank and ends at the check valve....


Not trying to argue, but it's also called telescoping and when the pump shuts of and the check closes the flow of water from the p-tank reverses for a second causing a shock wave to disperse from the P-tank and dead end plumbing close to the tank makes it worse because the pressure wave further reverberates.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Mississippiplum said:


> Not trying to argue, but it's also called telescoping and when the pump shuts of and the check closes the flow of water from the p-tank reverses for a second causing a shock wave to disperse from the P-tank and dead end plumbing close to the tank makes it worse because the pressure wave further reverberates.


Apples and Oranges....


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

I wasn't trying to argue any with you.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> the pressure was only 80psi which is average pressure...
> I have 110psi....at my home and have it kicked down to 80 here...
> 
> anyway they say to meet code we are going to have to charge you
> $$ 800 bucks for the prv and therm tank but of course the water heater is free:blink:


Sounds like you are overreacting a bit. That's how the business model of plumbing insurance operates. You have to inflate add-on prices to compensate for losing money on the basic job. Home Shield doesn't care because they don't have to pay for the add-ons.

And you right, 80psi is not a problem. But if the pressure ever climbed all the way to 80.0001, then you have a problem. But then again, maybe all the code writers, engineers, and fixture manufacturers are mistaken.


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## plumjoe (Oct 21, 2009)

anything 75-80, i recommend a prv. Give them a price, but its a free quote. you as a homeowner are alloewed to get as many quotes, or opinions as you want. so how i see it, what ever i quote for a job, its never a rip off cause i told you the price up front. you do not have to go with me. call out some other companies if you think my prices are high.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Mississippiplum said:


> Bounce back starts at the p-tank. The source of supply could be a well 100 ft down yonder. But bounce back starts at the tank, and it Is imparitive that we know how bad it is so we can properly combat it, bounce back can cause serious damage if the case is severe.





Redwood said:


> No it starts at the fast acting valve when it closes, has some of it absorbed by the pressure tank and ends at the check valve....





Mississippiplum said:


> Not trying to argue, but it's also called telescoping and when the pump shuts of and the check closes the flow of water from the p-tank reverses for a second causing a shock wave to disperse from the P-tank and dead end plumbing close to the tank makes it worse because the pressure wave further reverberates.


 
You guys are talking about two separate issues.







Paul


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

rocksteady said:


> You guys are talking about two separate issues.
> 
> Paul


Yea he started talking about it with irrigation then changed... :blink:
http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/prv-threm-tank-scam-15771/index3/#post216975

I didn't follow the rambling thought process... :blink:


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Redwood said:


> Yea he started talking about it with irrigation then changed... :blink:
> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/prv-threm-tank-scam-15771/index3/#post216975
> 
> I didn't follow the rambling thought process... :blink:


Bounce back can occur on a well system feeding an irrigation system or a well system feeding a residence, or anything else for that matter. If it has a pressure tank and a pump bounce back will occur, but if the system is designed right bounce back will be minimized.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Mississippiplum said:


> Bounce back can occur on a well system feeding an irrigation system or a well system feeding a residence, or anything else for that matter.


The question is when is it water hammer? :whistling2:


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Redwood said:


> The question is when is it water hammer? :whistling2:


Edit: water hammer is caused by a fast closing valve. Such as the solenoid valve in a washing machine. Bounce back is caused by the reversal of flow for a split seconde, causing a shock wave to eminate from the bladder tank.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Mississippiplum said:


> Edit: water hammer is caused by a fast closing valve. Such as the solenoid valve in a washing machine. Bounce back is caused by the reversal of flow for a split seconde, causing a shock wave to eminate from the bladder tank.


Right....


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Redwood said:


> Right....


That's a hunter control valve, the best made. Those shut slowly, and don't hammer.


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