# Rinnai Tankless update



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Contacted Rinnai today. They will be holding a training class soon, said sign me up. Also found out that my local Ferguson carries them exclusively, that is good!:thumbsup:

I wanted to thank everyone who gave me advice yesterday on the Rinnai tankless heaters, it was a great help, thank you!

I Know they've been around for a while but they're new for me. I do get a few calls for them and it seems I'm getting more questions lately about tankless. I want to make sure I'm ready, it's coming to my area no doubt.

It's good to keep educated and to keep up with the latest. Just like what happened with pex, if you don't keep up you will get left behind, or be sitting at home wondering what happened to the work. I feel like I have a few more years left in me, I'm keeping up!:thumbup::thumbsup::thumbup:


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

If you can get into a Noritz training class I think you will see they are a much better unit. I took the Rinnai class first since Ferguson carries them here as well. But after taking the Noritz Level 1, 2, and 3 class I was really impressed with how much more advanced their units are. Also I felt the Noritz classes where more informative over all. The information they teach you will be huge benefit no matter what brand you sell.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Whats about a Noritz is "more advanced" than a Rinnai?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I suggest researching them well and try to find an average price you will install them for.....once you have that figure,start every conversation out with it. Here I say 3,000 average install price and for 95% of people thats a no go. So you end up talking alot about a product that nobody wants to pay for. The payback takes too long. Goverment tax credits will help but in this economy its a hard sell to the average joe. Its not that theres lack of interest,plenty of that but few buyers here.
Noritz gave me outdated info 3 times by tha way


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I suggest researching them well and try to find an average price you will install them for.....once you have that figure,start every conversation out with it. Here I say 3,000 average install price and for 95% of people thats a no go. So you end up talking alot about a product that nobody wants to pay for. The payback takes too long. Goverment tax credits will help but in this economy its a hard sell to the average joe. Its not that theres lack of interest,plenty of that but few buyers here.
> Noritz gave me outdated info 3 times by tha way



The researching is about done, I'm going with the Rinnai. I have the support from Ferguson and the training. I'm really not going to push them, I just want the option available for those who ask me.
I did ask my rep at Ferguson today about how many they sell, he said lot's of them! So someone is buying them.

I agree, for the normal Joe it's not worth it, for my house it's not worth it and I'll stick with the tank. But there are people out there that don't care about spending too much money. If they want a tankless because their buddy has one then they will buy one too. I'll be ready when that happens.:thumbsup:


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

GREENPLUM said:


> Whats about a Noritz is "more advanced" than a Rinnai?


Lets compare the Rinnai R75LSi / GE 75DNSRSA to the Noritz N-0751M-DVC

*BTUs* 
Noritz 11,000 - 199,900 Rinnai 15,000 - 180,000

*Flow rates / temp settings*.
Noritz .5 gpm - 9.8gpm 100º - 180º Rinnai .6 gpm - 7.5 gpm 98º - 140º
Noritz can be set to 180º with out any special controllers, the Rinnai needs a special remote that needs to be purchased. Also Rinnai's min flow rate can vary from .6 gpm to 1 gpm

*Vent piping*
Noritz uses 100% stainless and is adjustable. Rinnai uses galvanized steel or plastic and requires cutting to adjust the lengths.

*Heat Exchanger*
Noritz heat exchanger is 25% thicker than the Rinnai's

*Burner *
Noritz uses a duel flame burner which gives a better temperature stability. Rinnai is still using a single flame burner.

*Controls*
Noritz comes with a controller that gives you full diagnostics. The Rinnai must purchase a special remote.

*Additional Features*
Noritz allows you to make a simple elevation adjustment by just clipping two wires together, the Rinnai you need to set the dip-switches. Noritz also has a built in controller for recirculation pumps where the Rinnai does not.

The one thing they do have in common is the warranty 12 year heat exchanger/ 5 year parts/ 1yr labor


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

what about takagi's


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ironranger said:


> The researching is about done, I'm going with the Rinnai. I have the support from Ferguson and the training. I'm really not going to push them, I just want the option available for those who ask me.
> I did ask my rep at Ferguson today about how many they sell, he said lot's of them! So someone is buying them.
> 
> I agree, for the normal Joe it's not worth it, for my house it's not worth it and I'll stick with the tank. But there are people out there that don't care about spending too much money. If they want a tankless because their buddy has one then they will buy one too. I'll be ready when that happens.:thumbsup:


Oh totally agree...its good to stay informed on whats happening with them and know what to say when the topic comes up while at a customers house about an install. i think theres guys here thats all they do is install the tankless for the gas company...the gas company sub-contracts these guys to do there installs....they do the installs cheap and the gas provider sells the jobs for them and puts it on the customers gas bill by the month for 10 years or some crazy long time. I cant and dont wanna compete with that.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

ironranger said:


> The researching is about done, I'm going with the Rinnai. I have the support from Ferguson and the training. I'm really not going to push them, I just want the option available for those who ask me.
> I did ask my rep at Ferguson today about how many they sell, he said lot's of them! So someone is buying them.
> 
> I agree, for the normal Joe it's not worth it, for my house it's not worth it and I'll stick with the tank. But there are people out there that don't care about spending too much money. If they want a tankless because their buddy has one then they will buy one too. I'll be ready when that happens.:thumbsup:


 
I am not saying to choose one brand over the other though. What I am saying is take the training class for Noritz as well. Heck if Takagi has a class by you take it too. They have lots of knowledge to pass on. Also you may get a HO wanting a specific brand since "they" did all the research on what brand they want. It helps to be certified to install the brand they want.

Some of them will even give you slide rules to help you figure out max BTU load on different sized gas pipe runs. Comes in real handy to quickly figure out if the 1" supply will cut it for a 200K BTU load at 75'


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> I am not saying to choose one brand over the other though. What I am saying is take the training class for Noritz as well. Heck if Takagi has a class by you take it too. They have lots of knowledge to pass on. Also you may get a HO wanting a specific brand since "they" did all the research on what brand they want. It helps to be certified to install the brand they want.
> 
> Some of them will even give you slide rules to help you figure out max BTU load on different sized gas pipe runs. Comes in real handy to quickly figure out if the 1" supply will cut it for a 200K BTU load at 75'


Good info, thanks! I'll look into it. I'm still learning about tankless, I think I have a long way to go.:laughing:


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

ironranger said:


> Good info, thanks! I'll look into it. I'm still learning about tankless, I think I have a long way to go.:laughing:


 I have been taking their classes for 7 years now. I like to take the class again in a year or so when they come out with their "new and improved" models or changes.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Alot of guys that install the Rinnai's, install them simply because that is what their house carries. I find most plumbers don't know much about tankless, or just don't care. I make alot of money off people who hire guys that get in over their head and can figure things out...keep in mind these things are almost idiot proof to install...just gotta pay attention to the little things. I rate Rinnai a distant second to Noritz. Sewer is correct in that they are a better unit that performes better - is more advanced - and the new ones and units comming out in the next year are pretty amazing. Rinnai is happy with their market place, Noritz is creating alot of distance between themselves as far as technology and types of tankless heaters. Condensing units are the way to go. More hot water for less gas......prices are starting to come down.

3 grand is a fair starting point, it just depends if you see a value in it. If you do, do you have the ability to sell that value to someone that has asked you to come to their home to do so? My closing rate is about 80-90% My average job is about 3400

With the markey slowing down, I am doing only 1...sometimes two per week. I have around 350 under my belt. Never once have I ever had a DOA unit.

Rinnai recalled thousands of heaters a few years because the the shipping shifted a filter that cuased the unit to stop working and there were a few dangerous situations with some of them. I replaced .....maybe 10 back than. 

TK's are kinda like a Dodge Caravan...loud and won't last. I won't get into why I don't like them..do a search as I have written it up alot. The rest don't even come close.

You will do OK with the Rinnai's....IMHO you will do better with a Noritz
Espcially if you actually become good at these things and start repairing them from hack installers.

Good luck


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Yes the plumbing and install seems pretty basic. It's the fixing and diagnosing that I'll need to learn. 
I'm still concerned about the hard water situation we have here. Some have said they sell conditioners along with the units. Another company I talked to up here that installs them (not in my area, but still has hard water) doesn't seem concerned about it, installs them all the time without conditioning the water. What's your opinion tankless?

I do have a market for them here, I'm going forward with it.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

ironranger said:


> Yes the plumbing and install seems pretty basic. It's the fixing and diagnosing that I'll need to learn.
> *I'm still concerned about the hard water situation we have here*. Some have said they sell conditioners along with the units. Another company I talked to up here that installs them (not in my area, but still has hard water) doesn't seem concerned about it, installs them all the time without conditioning the water. What's your opinion tankless?
> 
> I do have a market for them here, I'm going forward with it.


 
As you should be. It ought to be criminal to install a tankless on a hard water supply. It is guaranteed to fail. Noritz - TK and a few others have come up with a scale shield system to eliminate scale only...not calcium build up. It's about half the cost to get into them versus a softener and you must buy the media cartridge every year or so. After a few years the softener will be less expensive AND will do a better (much) than their silly scale shield systems.

I install softeners all the time. Why give easy money to the hack water treatment guys. One of them hooked up the irrigation line to the output of the softener they installed on a house I fixed a few weeks ago. 

I am getting a little PH / PPM digital gauge to test the actual water for each house I go to. It will make softener sales easier and it lets clients know that I know my shyit. Just like when I whip out my manometer and measure 3" of WC at full load and the client looks at me with rage because of how much they were charged to install their tankless. Than I let them know what a new dedicated gas line will run them. That is why I am as anal as I am with these. Because I don't like seeing that stuff. I also educate my clients so they know not to just accept the cheapest price they get for the job. Most of the time I get the jobs, some I don't. Some I grossly overbid because the job isn't worth it to me or I just hate the client. That's rare but people need to be actually nice and kinda easy going for me to like them. Ironically I close 100% of the engineers and scientist and all the overly detailed oriented people.....

In either event...search this forum on tankless topics. I have given ALOT of info on the topic as has a few others too. The info I give is my experience, not the installation instructions. I expect you as an installer to know it cover to cover....and I am not exaggerating on that :no:!

Jump in, do a good job, make good money and ask questions if you need help. It's the main reason I come back here day after day.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Tankless said:


> As you should be. It ought to be criminal to install a tankless on a hard water supply. It is guaranteed to fail. Noritz - TK and a few others have come up with a scale shield system to eliminate scale only...not calcium build up. It's about half the cost to get into them versus a softener and you must buy the media cartridge every year or so. After a few years the softener will be less expensive AND will do a better (much) than their silly scale shield systems.
> 
> I install softeners all the time. Why give easy money to the hack water treatment guys. One of them hooked up the irrigation line to the output of the softener they installed on a house I fixed a few weeks ago.
> 
> ...


Do you have a source for the PH/PPM Digital gauge? I been trying to track one down for a while now.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> Do you have a source for the PH/PPM Digital gauge? I been trying to track one down for a while now.


gimme a few days on that, I'm working on it. I saw some in the hundreds, than a buddy got one for 30...so I am waiting to hear how it works


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## tooslow (Jul 17, 2009)

*ph and solids guage*



Tankless said:


> gimme a few days on that, I'm working on it. I saw some in the hundreds, than a buddy got one for 30...so I am waiting to hear how it works


I have a Grainger catalogue and they list a pocket ph tester for $75.00 and a solids tester for @$50.00.

They also list a combination tester for @ $400.00 I'm sure they have an website.


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