# To pay or not to pay?



## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

Do you charge if you do not clear the blockage?


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Fast fry said:


> Do you charge if you do not clear the blockage?


Of course. The charge is to run a cable. You can't see what's in the line or the condition of it. Running the cable is the first step. If it doesn't work and the customer doesn't want to go further with correcting the issue then that's not your fault. 

When you first give an estimate, have in writing that the charge is to run a cable up to X feet and for X amount of time. Do NOT put that you will unclog the line for X price. I always tell my customer that I guarantee I can get it unlogged, I just can't guarantee that it will only need to have a cable run to do it.


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

Was helping out a new general on this job . He just finished a Reno on Home Depot with some hack plumbers , and got a call within two weeks of a drainage blockage . I dropped in and my one machine was too small and other was too big . So we go grab one from tool rental and the general gets it stuck. Technically we had the rental machine in the store so we technically had returned it . It was pretty classic . Never got a machine stuck. After a few hours they called in drain cleaning"specialists" and it took the other guys 3 machines at once to clear the blockage. Apparently a piece of furniture


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Three machines "at once"?

What does that mean?


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## ibeplumber (Sep 20, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> Three machines "at once"? What does that mean?


how does that work?


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> Three machines "at once"? What does that mean?


If you google triple penetration you'll find plenty of videos and images to show you....



*waits*


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

On a cable we don't charge if the line doesn't drop...

But we will move on to the next step...

I'm waiting on the 3 machines at once explaining too...:blink:


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## 4Aces Plumbing (Aug 26, 2011)

fast fry said:


> was helping out a new general on this job . He just finished a reno on home depot with some hack plumbers , and got a call within two weeks of a drainage blockage . I dropped in and my one machine was too small and other was too big . So we go grab one from tool rental and the general gets it stuck. Technically we had the rental machine in the store so we technically had returned it . It was pretty classic . Never got a machine stuck. After a few hours they called in drain cleaning"specialists" and it took the other guys 3 machines at once to clear the blockage. *apparently a piece of furniture*


wtf?


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

4Aces Plumbing said:


> wtf?


You say that as though you've never seen a dining room table inside of a sewer line before. Jeez, 4 Aces... how long you been plumbing?


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## Pac Rim Plumber (Jun 23, 2010)

Why was the GC running the drain machine with you there?


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

We charge for the attempt to unclog your drain its x amount for us to attempt to unclogg your drain. If we dont succeed then we will look at ur options and charge accordingly


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

Flyout95 said:


> If you google triple penetration you'll find plenty of videos and images to show you....
> 
> 
> 
> *waits*


I was with a girl once who wanted that. She called it the devils pitch fork . 

Apparently the 3 machines where all going in different parts of the line . Furniture - this Home Depot has seen allot of vandalism . I had my foot on the foot switch and cause the blockage was so stubborn general was manually rodding the rod with his hands to try to pass the blockage . I knew this May lead to trouble but was already 3 hrs in with no success. Never has happened before , but I knew I was limited with anything more that I could physically do . I think general felt responcible for being on the hook for it so he was ram rodding the mo of to try to get it to clear. If it was my own machine I wouldn't of let him do that. But the Home Depot rental and getting it stuck inside their own store ......,just classic boys . U only see that shot in the movies


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

Also all washrooms where out of order . You know what that means . Getting trailers on site and running temp power to them out front . That was another 5 k bill . General just of been sweating bullets . Job I am doing for him now .....,, mandatory snaking the line before we throw new water closets on


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

No charge if I can't get it open enough to identify the problem.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Your plumbers on site need to get paid for their time there, so yes we charge if the line doesn't open.

Cabling a line is the first step in diagnosis of the problem. Doctors get paid for making a diagnosis, then you get billed more for the surgery.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

If a loved one doesn't make it out of the operating room from an ongoing illness due to no fault of the doctor, does the doctor still get paid? 
If you loose a court case does the lawyer still get paid?

So why when you give it your best effort, with all your expensive equipment and unrecoverable time spent trying to open that drain but can't because the customer may have made a conscious decision to not have the yearly maintenance done on a problem they've known about from the last plumber who snaked it 7 years ago and told and showed them on the camera that it needs to be snaked yearly for preventative maintenance, but they chose to ignore it the following year because it didn't clog and again the next year and so on for the next 7 years until now when the roots have grown so thick in those 7 years that the only option is to try the more expensive jetter or a replacement is necessary but the customer chooses to not believe you just like the last plumber, or wants to find someone to possibly do it cheaper, should you not get paid?
WHEW! Take a breath now.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Years ago we asked ourselves the very same question. It didn't 'feel' right charging if we were unable to clear a line. Once we got over the feeling part and applied logic / business sense, the answer was obvious - charge! 

That meant we had to change a few things. Customer calls and asks how much to clear a main line blockage: correct answer, "we charge *** amount to run our cable machine for up to one hour in attempt to clear the line. 95% of the time we are successful in clearing the line. There are times that a line requires more than cabling, and in those cases the cost will be more. "

We use to say "we charge *** to clear a main line, " which in fairness to the customer, we should not have charged if we were unsuccessful. 

It's all in the wording.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Phat Cat said:


> Years ago we asked ourselves the very same question. It didn't 'feel' right charging if we were unable to clear a line. Once we got over the feeling part and applied logic / business sense, the answer was obvious - charge! That meant we had to change a few things. Customer calls and asks how much to clear a main line blockage: correct answer, "we charge *** amount to run our cable machine for up to one hour in attempt to clear the line. 95% of the time we are successful in clearing the line. There are times that a line requires more than cabling, and in those cases the cost will be more. " We use to say "we charge *** to clear a main line, " which in fairness to the customer, we should not have charged if we were unsuccessful. It's all in the wording.


I'd like to borrow this.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

sierra2000 said:


> I'd like to borrow this.


You may keep it. I borrowed some of it loosely from Mr.Biz. Ever since he used the term "attempt," I have used it often in different scenarios. The best part, when you explain things up front to a customer, they really do understand and accept. 

You may even find a way to apply it to those lining jobs. Wouldn't that be nice!


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Phat Cat said:


> You may even find a way to apply it to those lining jobs. Wouldn't that be nice!


I don't know about that. User error is user error.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

This is what I currently have in my flat rate book.

ATTEMPT to unclog sewer main with cable machine up to 100 feet from an accessible full size exterior cleanout. Includes (***) attempts with small, medium and large cutting blades and camera inspection. Any additional attempts are an additional cost priced from option# 8 below. 
(***) warranty if we're able to get a full size cutting blade through. No warranty otherwise.


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

Did you solve the problem or turn it over to someone who could?


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

Unclog1776 said:


> Did you solve the problem or turn it over to someone who could?


I Was giving a hand . Had it turned over to drain cleaner"professionals". Was kind of a grey area for me seeing as I was " giving a hand" which I don t make a habit of. Everytime we do that shot always go south


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

You say you called pro drain cleaners... Did they fix the clog?


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

sierra2000 said:


> This is what I currently have in my flat rate book.
> 
> ATTEMPT to unclog sewer main with cable machine up to 100 feet from an accessible full size exterior cleanout. Includes (***) attempts with small, medium and large cutting blades and camera inspection. Any additional attempts are an additional cost priced from option# 8 below.
> (***) warranty if we're able to get a full size cutting blade through. No warranty otherwise.


That's old school and has always worked.


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

We charge for the machine and hourly. I've had a few collapsed bldg sewers, or grease nightmares, I finalize my bill and let the show begin.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

Coolcanuck said:


> We charge for the machine and hourly. I've had a few collapsed bldg sewers, or grease nightmares, I finalize my bill and let the show begin.


That is the way I ran my shop in L.A. and it seemed to work well when people know that they are paying by the hour no matter how long it takes or what you have to do ! :thumbup:


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

Phat Cat said:


> Years ago we asked ourselves the very same question. It didn't 'feel' right charging if we were unable to clear a line. Once we got over the feeling part and applied logic / business sense, the answer was obvious - charge!
> 
> That meant we had to change a few things. Customer calls and asks how much to clear a main line blockage: correct answer, "we charge *** amount to run our cable machine for up to one hour in attempt to clear the line. 95% of the time we are successful in clearing the line. There are times that a line requires more than cabling, and in those cases the cost will be more. "
> 
> ...


I'm thinking of having that on my invoices loud and clear


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## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

A threesome wheew!!!! I have been on a double where first plumber put all he had in but didn't have extra roll of cable ,his buddy comes along to help him out hooks his cable to his buddys and gets to bottom of matter but a threesome never been there!!!:thumbup:


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

Unclog1776 said:


> You say you called pro drain cleaners... Did they fix the clog?



No I don t call anyone . It was general who called these guys who he had to use before . I think he was saying they have one flat fee to show up , with their machine . Then like 60$ for each hour after . That beats my price

And yes apparently clog was fixe, from what I was told


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

What we do and I dont really agree with is if we fail to clear it we charge for the time but not for the machine.


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

If you failed to clear it because the line was damaged you should charge. If you failed to clean it because you either didn't have the right equipment or something like that and then someone who does gets the job done... I wouldn't pay


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

All my time is billable. I have a fully stocked drain truck and if I can't clear it, it's got to be broken. In that case I still charge because I didn't damage the line.


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

If the pipe is broke they get charged. if the pipe is intact and I can't clear it they may only pay a service call(rare). If somebody else clears it they get a full refund. (ya that don't happen). If I don't have enough cable to clear the blockage they don't get charged. I usually refuse these. no sense to waste my time, but if I'm not busy and set up is easy I may try.


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## JAraiza (May 7, 2012)

If we don't clear it it's free and if we clear it it's free. We just refuse to charge for anything, it's are golden rule. It's also free to get a free disease and to bring it home to the family with a free warranty on that guaranteed. For
Free!


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