# PEX tubing and rodents



## Innovator88 (Sep 29, 2013)

Here's a couple pics of PEX tubing in a residential housing development. You can see where mice chewed through it causing property damage.


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

That's a good reason to not have mice. Lol


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## Plumbbum0203 (Dec 14, 2011)

That second pic looks like a mess. I can't believe that passed inspection. Poor craftsmanship. Oh well its already done


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

Plumbbum0203 said:


> That second pic looks like a mess. I can't believe that passed inspection. Poor craftsmanship. Oh well its already done


Inspections are not meant to scrutinize craftsmanship, only code. There's a lot of crappy looking work out there that's done to code.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*I love pex*

yea , pex is great to work with and no one cares what the heck it looks like when you are done....

as long as hot is on the left and cold is on the right
life is good in hooterville..

 you have to use the white pex , cause the mice dont know wether they are biteing into a water line or a power line.. .:laughing::laughing: 

the red and blue stuff is a dead give-a-way


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## Plumbbum0203 (Dec 14, 2011)

Our inspectors will fail for craftsmanship.


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

My code book says work must be done in a professional manor with craftsmanship. They will fail you for crap work.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

If you're going to run PEX in an open space like a crawl space please insulate it for goodness sake!!


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

PEX failing for whatever reason. It's the exception, not the rule.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Cajunhiker said:


> PEX failing for whatever reason. It's the exception, not the rule.


I wouldn't say that it was the PEX that failed...

It's a freaking rodent infestation....

Sparky isn't going to say his Romex failed because a rodent chewed the insulation off....:no:


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

The pex didn't fail, but it is an inherent weakness.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

MTDUNN said:


> If you're going to run PEX in an open space like a crawl space please insulate it for goodness sake!!


Why?


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> Why?


So that the mice can make a blanket with their pex meal


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Plumbbum0203 said:


> Our inspectors will fail for craftsmanship.


I agree we used to have an inspector that would fail you for not wiping your solider joints.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

wyrickmech said:


> I agree we used to have an inspector that would fail you for not wiping your solider joints.


There's reasons for wiping joints after soldering...


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> There's reasons for wiping joints after soldering...


yes I agree he would fail if you didn't. I was taught wiping joints was a must get rid of the leftover flux and it didn't look like there was a drip


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

wyrickmech said:


> I agree we used to have an inspector that would fail you for not wiping your solider joints.


When our test had a shop portion, it was an automatic fail if you wiped the solder joints.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> When our test had a shop portion, it was an automatic fail if you wiped the solder joints.


when I took my journeyman's we still had to wipe a lead joint


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

wyrickmech said:


> when I took my journeyman's we still had to wipe a lead joint


The lead and oakum was off when I too mine. They replaced it with a PVC jig and gas fusion.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> The lead and oakum was off when I too mine. They replaced it with a PVC jig and gas fusion.


they replaced ours with making a lead flashing.one had to be for a flat roof and tested water tight,the second one had to be for a piched roof. The second one had to be folded with no wrinkles exactly one inch inside the pipe. Wonder what will happen in the next twenty years, it has evolved so much.


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

rjbphd said:


> There's reasons for wiping joints after soldering...


??? Which are ...???


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## Chandog (Nov 22, 2010)

Cajunhiker said:


> ??? Which are ...???


A drip makes it very difficult to cut the pipe in the future with a tubing cutter


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Chandog said:


> A drip makes it very difficult to cut the pipe in the future with a tubing cutter


Nope.. if u have a drip after soldering...u are using too much


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Nope.. if u have a drip after soldering...u are using too much


I tend to drip less when using acetylene. 

Then again. That's why they invented diaper underwear.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> Nope.. if u have a drip after soldering...u are using too much


Drips are cheaper than leaks.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Around here if you want repeat business you better wipe the joints. It just adds a little professional touch.


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## O.C. plumberman (Nov 21, 2008)

Innovator88 said:


> Here's a couple pics of PEX tubing in a residential housing development. You can see where mice chewed through it causing property damage.


Having seen what rodents can do to pvc water lines in California, and dishwasher discharge hoses here in Ohio, and having felt bad for the poor lady who had paid thousands in repairs and couldn't find a insurance company that would take her,.... I always wondered when PEX came out, when everyone was saying how great it was... if they ever took into account what rodents can do to the plumbing. 
Btw, I like copper myself, maybe I'm old school but seeing that shiny copper when I leave makes me feel a lot better knowing it will last and even mighty mouse can't bite it open :thumbup:


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

O.C. plumberman said:


> Having seen what rodents can do to pvc water lines in California, and dishwasher discharge hoses here in Ohio, and having felt bad for the poor lady who had paid thousands in repairs and couldn't find a insurance company that would take her,.... I always wondered when PEX came out, when everyone was saying how great it was... if they ever took into account what rodents can do to the plumbing. Btw, I like copper myself, maybe I'm old school but seeing that shiny copper when I leave makes me feel a lot better knowing it will last and even mighty mouse can't bite it open :thumbup:


copper is first choice for most of us . But to survive we must use the stuff or sit on our hands in sheer boredom. Because most houses ain't going to spend extra for the copper. Just a sad fact.


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## Innovator88 (Sep 29, 2013)

I too was very skeptical about this when PEX first came out also. I was told by a rep that there was a built-in inhibitor to prevent this very thing. Obviously, as we can see, that's not the case. As a craftsman I prefer copper as well, but at the end of the day the customers are attracted to the price point especially on a whole house re-route where drywall loss is best kept minimal. Also, here in Cali we are fighting high alkalinity and PEX is proving to be impervious. Whereas copper is corroding from the inside out and causing slab leaks galore...


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## Pac Rim Plumber (Jun 23, 2010)

I recently went to a Viega Class

The sales rep stated that the reason the mice or rats eat through the pex piping to access the water is due to the poison, that the rodents do not seek out water normally but when poisoned they seek out the water. Has anyone heard of this???


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Pac Rim Plumber said:


> I recently went to a Viega Class
> 
> The sales rep stated that the reason the mice or rats eat through the pex piping to access the water is due to the poison, that the rodents do not seek out water normally but when poisoned they seek out the water. Has anyone heard of this???


Some of the poisons used thin their blood and cause internal bleeding. One of the symptoms of internal bleeding is an unquenchable thirst which is why you often find dead rats and mice next to water. So yes it has been heard of...

Warfarin, Difenacoum, & Bromadiolone which are anticoagulants are a couple of the commonly used ingredients...


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Well that does it. I'm back charging the exterminator!!


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

MTDUNN said:


> Well that does it. I'm back charging the exterminator!!


And he'll back charge you for not sealing around the frostproof hose bibb and the tankless water heater vent you didn't seal properly which let the mice wiggle in...:laughing:


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## Innovator88 (Sep 29, 2013)

I have found that the poison decon dehydrates them making them seek water. I have also seen them chew through many ABS P traps and ABS tub shoes when poisoned.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Innovator88 said:


> I have found that the poison decon dehydrates them making them seek water. I have also seen them chew through many ABS P traps and ABS tub shoes when poisoned.


DeCon Baits use Brodifacoum very similar to Warfarin and it is an anticoagulant...


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Redwood said:


> DeCon Baits use Brodifacoum very similar to Warfarin and it is an anticoagulant...


i have found that a co2 pistol a chair and a cooler full of your favorite beverage a lot more effective way to take care of rodents.


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## Pac Rim Plumber (Jun 23, 2010)

The rep said to use traps instead of poison.......:laughing:

I have the rat zapper in the garage, one time took out 7 of the buggers in 2 days. Zaps them and stops the heart.


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## mtfallsmikey (Jan 11, 2010)

Mice loved QEST tubing as well...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

mtfallsmikey said:


> Mice loved QEST tubing as well...


Yeah, we see it all the time on PB.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

mtfallsmikey said:


> Mice loved QEST tubing as well...


hey I know this is off subject but I run into some quest the other day and did not know that sharkbite makes a coupling just for transitioning from quest to pex. Good to know


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Plumbbum0203 said:


> Our inspectors will fail for craftsmanship.


Which Inspector. City or State. If the City has a hope of a a leg to stand, they had better adopt an ordinance on exactly how the work should be performed. Since in the 2004 Illinois Plumbing Code makes no mention of how much or what part should look to be installed in a Professional Manner.

_TITLE 77: PUBLIC HEALTH 
CHAPTER I: DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC HEALTH
SUBCHAPTER r: WATER AND SEWAGE
PART 890 ILLINOIS PLUMBING CODE 
SECTION 890.150 WORKMANSHIP
_
_*Section 890.150 Workmanship* 

a) All plumbing work performed shall comply with the provisions of this Part. 

b) In the process of installing or repairing any part of a plumbing system, the floors, walls, ceilings, tile work, or any other part of the building or premises which must be changed, altered or replaced shall be left in a safe structural condition so as not to pose a health or safety hazard. 

c) Exterior/interior openings through walls, floors, and ceilings shall have the annular space around pipes properly closed to prevent the entrance of mice, rats or other rodents. Exterior wall openings shall be made water-tight. _


_TITLE 77: PUBLIC HEALTH 
CHAPTER I: DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC HEALTH
SUBCHAPTER r: WATER AND SEWAGE
PART 890 ILLINOIS PLUMBING CODE 
SECTION 890.1910 INSPECTIONS_

_*Section 890.1910 Inspections* 

A plumbing system or any part thereof shall not be enclosed, covered up or used until the system has been inspected and approved by a plumbing inspector. It is the responsibility of the licensed plumber or plumbing contractor on the job to arrange for inspection by the Department or a local plumbing inspector. The plumbing inspector may require tests as listed in Section 890.1930 to determine whether or not the system as installed is in compliance with this Part. Plumbing found not to be in compliance with this Part shall not be approved. A plumbing system not complying with the provisions of this Part shall not be used until such time as it is brought into compliance with this Part. After the plumbing corrections have been made, the plumbing contractor shall arrange for reinspection. 
_




Not that pride in a persons work should be expected. 

If an inspector has to formally cite a code violation he must cite in writing the violation and deadline for corrections. If it is hard pipe you could cite stress on a fitting or question the integrity of a joint or connection. This would be easier. But to just say the workmanship is poor and not to be able to cite it in the plumbing code would be a far stretch, unless it is specifically in the product installation instructions if a contractor ever wanted to push the issue. 


At_ "Ardipex"_ nothing is mentioned about how neat it should look, only to allow for expansion, which I see not being addressed a lot.


"

*Running The PEX Tubing*

_PEX will install a bit differently than normal PVC or copper tubing. Allowances must be made for ever 10 degrees of change in temperature. PEX will contract one inch every 100 feet of pipe with every 10° of temperature change. Offset this by making a loop in the PEX that is no more than 8 times the diameter of the PEX tubing.

You will need straps and hangers when installing the PEX. It must be supported at least every 32 inches if PEX tubing is installed alongside a joist. If it is placed atop a beam, it should be supported every 6 feet. When run vertically, it will require support at every floor level. When installing, always leave slack in the PEX tubing to allow for contraction. The support hangers should not be so tight that they will restrict movement of the PEX."_


I don't see a lot of people using the "go/NO go" gauges to check the final joint either.


As long as it is supported horizontally at 32" and you watch the radius would cover the most of it, with room left for expansion.



http://http://0323c7c.netsolhost.com/docs/PEXDesApplGuide.pdf​


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> When our test had a shop portion, it was an automatic fail if you wiped the solder joints.



Yup Illinois test will knock off points for "wiping" a solder joint as well as having a drip hanging down off the joint, and over cleaning the pipe.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

GAN said:


> Yup Illinois test will knock off points for "wiping" a solder joint as well as having a drip hanging down off the joint, and over cleaning the pipe.


I guess it is in line with the principles of the rest of the test. Some may consider wiping a solder joint to be the same error in testing as oversizing water piping. The test is to verify accurate knowledge of the code. Wiping a joint may easily be viewed as exceeding the requirements. Like running 1" waterlines to all fixtures in a single bathroom home, it works but is not the requirement of the code.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> I guess it is in line with the principles of the rest of the test. Some may consider wiping a solder joint to be the same error in testing as oversizing water piping. The test is to verify accurate knowledge of the code. Wiping a joint may easily be viewed as exceeding the requirements. Like running 1" waterlines to all fixtures in a single bathroom home, it works but is not the requirement of the code.


it may be going overboard but wiping your joints is a trade standard around here if you don't it just looks unprofessional


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Pac Rim Plumber said:


> I recently went to a Viega Class
> 
> The sales rep stated that the reason the mice or rats eat through the pex piping to access the water is due to the poison, that the rodents do not seek out water normally but when poisoned they seek out the water. Has anyone heard of this???


 






I have heard that when they ingest the rat poison, it severly de-hydrates the rodents and they'll do anything to get water. That's what I've heard anyway. I'm not an exterminator.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> I have heard that when they ingest the rat poison, it severly de-hydrates the rodents and they'll do anything to get water. That's what I've heard anyway. I'm not an exterminator.


 Its true that they get de-hydrated.... which one they chew on first?? Hot or cold??


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## Plumbbum0203 (Dec 14, 2011)

GAN said:


> Which Inspector. City or State. If the City has a hope of a a leg to stand, they had better adopt an ordinance on exactly how the work should be performed. Since in the 2004 Illinois Plumbing Code makes no mention of how much or what part should look to be installed in a Professional Manner.
> 
> TITLE 77: PUBLIC HEALTH
> CHAPTER I: DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC HEALTH
> ...


St louis Missouri. City and county. They will fail it or give you a arse chewing. I would never install my work to look like that anyway. I take pride in what I do. That looks like what a handy hack would do. I guess when I was taught my guys I worked with always said a inspector would fail for bad craftsmanship because they wanted me to learn the best and right way to install or repair plumbing.


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

wyrickmech said:


> hey I know this is off subject but I run into some quest the other day and did not know that sharkbite makes a coupling just for transitioning from quest to pex. Good to know


That is the only shark bite I use


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

I would use this before a sharkbite


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

MTDUNN said:


> I would use this before a sharkbite


Will that work on PB the old grey tubing? I would think it would split.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Which one will the rats get to first?? Hot or cold??


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

HSI said:


> Will that work on PB the old grey tubing? I would think it would split.


We make repairs to pb using crimp fittings. We install threaded adapters and convert to copper. Most of the pb was installed around here 1987-92. Don't remember having any split during repairs. Has to be a pb fitting though. Pex has a different ID. Oh, and use a nice sharp cutter.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

HSI said:


> Will that work on PB the old grey tubing? I would think it would split.


What he said. ^


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

HSI said:


> Will that work on PB the old grey tubing? I would think it would split.


That is specifically what it is made for.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> That is specifically what it is made for.


That's a poly x pex adapter, right?


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

I did not know such a thing existed. 
Thanks


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## NH_Apprentice (Oct 9, 2013)

If you don't wipe the flux after hitting the joint it will eventually discolor-ate the whole pipe won't it?


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Letterrip said:


> That's a poly x pex adapter, right?


 Yes and they are available at most plumbing supplies as well as home bleepo


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

NH_Apprentice said:


> If you don't wipe the flux after hitting the joint it will eventually discolor-ate the whole pipe won't it?


It may, but again overfluxing is a no no. You can wipe down with baking soda solution.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

In Florida, flying squirrels also chew pex...the lats incident I had was 2.5 years ago and there was no indication of poison causing the chewing...sounds like a rep thought of a good one..

can an animal smell the water thru the pex pipe? I dont know, but I doubt it


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

good appearance on a copper job is worth more to me than wasting $5 of solder...


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

stillaround said:


> In Florida, flying squirrels also chew pex...the lats incident I had was 2.5 years ago and there was no indication of poison causing the chewing...sounds like a rep thought of a good one..
> 
> can an animal smell the water thru the pex pipe? I dont know, but I doubt it


 Which did the squirrels go after first? The hot or cold??


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

stillaround said:


> good appearance on a copper job is worth more to me than wasting $5 of solder...


Using $5 worth of solder hidden inside one fitting is not only a waste, but it shows a lack of proper training. It also causes turbulence and pinholes.


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