# vent is required for toilet to flush



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Well I got to share about a house we worked on the other day,problems were leaking around bottom of toilet,lav pop-up broke,leak on tub faucet.so we got there and saw water around toilet,flushed toilet and it would go down but wouldn't knock the bottom out of it,so we pull toilet,repair flange and reset with new bolts and wax ring,repair the lav and leak on tub faucet,start picking up and as we are running water in lav the toilet is gurgling and burping like crazy and wasn't doing it when we first got there,also toilet would not. Go down at all,just rise and swirl.there was no vent visible when I looked down into the 4"waste pipe,so come to find out the reason the toilet was flushing when we got there was because the leak at the wax ring was allowing enough air at the toilet to let it flush,so when we made that wax ring air tight it wasn't getting any air at all and I'm telling you it would not go down at all,and lav was making toilet burp and gurgle while running,I said oh crap what we gonna do now???so I go outside and walk around the 150 yr old house and find an 1 1/2" galvanized pipe coming out of ground about 12 feet tall,go get sawzall,cut pipe down to 4ft and tell son to go flush toilet,no change but I could hear him thru the pipe so I knew that was a vent pipe off the toilet and lav drain,take garden hose and flush it out and it was full of leaves and crap and dirt,go flush toilet again and knocks the bottom out of the toilet it flushed so good,no more burping and gurgling,we solved the problem,so what I'm getting at here is there are some here that swear a vent is not necessary on a plbing system but I'm here to tell you that without that vent pipe the toilet would not flush one bit

Ps. This is the first time I ever ran into a situation like this where a toilet would not go down at all without that vent.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

And here we go

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

plumbdrum said:


> and here we go
> 
> sent from my iphone using plumbingzone



...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Hey Sparky...what's a fella gotta do to get a few blank lines thrown into that mega-paragraph? :blink: :jester:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I believe I shall shout this :laughing:

TOILETS ARE FULL SIPHONING FIXTURES THAT ARE FULLY VENTED BY THE S TRAP AND THE WATER ABOVE !!! 

You have either a sag in the drain or an obstruction downstream. 

Thanks to the BIZ for allowing me the opening salvo. :thumbsup: :laughing:

Gentlemen....you may now fire at will.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plumbdrum said:


> And here we go
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Lololo, don't hate the messenger lololol:laughing:


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plbgbiz said:


> Hey Sparky...what's a fella gotta do to get a few blank lines thrown into that mega-paragraph? :blink: :jester:


I know,I'm tryin to watch moonshiners while typing this and let it go lololo:laughing:


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I believe I shall shout this :laughing:
> 
> TOILETS ARE FULL SIPHONING FIXTURES THAT ARE FULLY VENTED BY THE S TRAP AND THE WATER ABOVE !!!
> 
> ...


Negative,that toilet would not go down unless it had air at the bottom of the toilet or that vent was cleaned out,also septic tank was installed new 3yrs ago,it was an airtight system so way some how:yes::yes:


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## hawkeye77 (Feb 20, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I believe I shall shout this :laughing: TOILETS ARE FULL SIPHONING FIXTURES THAT ARE FULLY VENTED BY THE S TRAP AND THE WATER ABOVE !!! You have either a sag in the drain or an obstruction downstream. Thanks to the BIZ for allowing me the opening salvo. :thumbsup: :laughing: Gentlemen....you may now fire at will.


I agree the line is sagged and cleaning the vent allowed the air to escape


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

hawkeye77 said:


> I agree the line is sagged and cleaning the vent allowed the air to escape


Maybe,but this is the first time I ever seen a whole system air lock like it did


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

There is another problem which you haven't figured out yet...:laughing:

Did you run a camera through the line?


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Redwood said:


> There is another problem which you haven't figured out yet...:laughing:
> 
> Did you run a camera through the line?



Unfortunately I don't have a camera but that is gonna be the next purchase hopefully,there could be something going on from house to septic,it's possible,but this is the first time I have ever seen a toilet not flush at all because of air lock,I have been in houses that I know for a fact that had no vent and toilet would still flush good,this was a weird vent issue:yes:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sparky said:


> This was a weird vent issue:yes:


:no: It Wasn't! :no:
It was either a line issue or, going to a sealed(completely) tank such as an ejector pit that wasn't plumbed properly with a vent through the roof. Even then most of those leak enough that a toilet would still flush.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Redwood said:


> :no: It Wasn't! :no:
> It was either a line issue or, going to a sealed(completely) tank such as an ejector pit that wasn't plumbed properly with a vent through the roof. Even then most of those leak enough that a toilet would still flush.


:yes:It was :yes:

When that vent was plugged and after we fixed the flange and wax ring it would not go down at all,and the lav drain ran into the 4" cast iron about 18" below the toilet and just running the lav would make toilet burp and gurgle and if you tried to flush toilet while running lav it would come out in floor,after we flushed out the vent toilet flushed like a new one,and no more burp and gurgles!!

Also before we left I filled tub up with about 3"-4" water,filled washer up,fill lav up,kitchen sink up,and dropped everything at the same time while flushing toilet,and it all went out just fine,all I can come up with is that since septic tank was installed new 3 yrs ago with new laterals,no clean-outs anywhere,when that vent was plugged it caused that house drain and outside sewer to become air tight,but once that vent was opened up it would let the toilet flush like one with a flush valve.i know it don't make sense,still don't :yes::yes:


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## Nathan901 (Feb 11, 2012)

We did a rough in with no open vents before. 

Total of 3 AAVs for 2 bathrooms. Same scenario with the toilets filling to the top and not going down. 

As soon as I pulled the cleanout cap outside the building it all drained perfectly. 

All it took to actually keep the toilets flushing was a 3/4 inch hole drilled in the cleanout. 



?


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Nathan901 said:


> We did a rough in with no open vents before.
> 
> Total of 3 AAVs for 2 bathrooms. Same scenario with the toilets filling to the top and not going down.
> 
> ...


Thank you,it is a weird situation for sure,what geeks me out about the whole thing is I have been in numerous houses with no known vent and toilet would still flush,but come to think of it they were on city sewer I believe,maybe that septic tank wasn't letting ant air in at all as it was completely covered over with no clean outs!!!thanks for sharing that interesting situation you encountered,glad I'm not the only one now:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

The Deadmen are rolling in their graves wondering about what we call plumbers today...


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Redwood said:


> The Deadmen are rolling in their graves wondering about what we call plumbers today...


You can say that again brother,you can say that again


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Nathan901 said:


> We did a rough in with no open vents before.
> 
> Total of 3 AAVs for 2 bathrooms. Same scenario with the toilets filling to the top and not going down.
> 
> ...


Yea that air in the pipe had to go somewhere,anytime you add water to a pipe that air in the pipe has to go somewhere,when it on a closed system it can't go anywhere causing the above problems


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sparky said:


> Yea that air in the pipe had to go somewhere,anytime you add water to a pipe that air in the pipe has to go somewhere,when it on a closed system it can't go anywhere causing the above problems


Actually it would be the air in the tank needs to go somewhere, however it is extremely rare that a septic system is that tight that air cannot escape from the tank. The only time I have ever seen that was on a tank that had just been emptied and the house had a house trap leaving the house, evidently the initial filling of the tank was too much air volume to get rid of instead of the usual water in and water out to the leaching...

I think you might have something you haven't figured out yet like perhaps a belly in the line giving you a double trap effect or a partial clog...


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## johnh (Jul 6, 2013)

The house I lived in as a kid didn't have a vent. I lived there from age 3 to age 18. At 18 I became a plumbers apprentice. Anyhoo there was a cast iron drain coming from the toilet to the septic. The 90 at the bottom of the toilet had two 1.5 inch threaded taps, the lav and tub went into these taps. The kitchen and laundry went to a drywell. I never thought much of it until I got into the trade. All the time I lived there there we never had a visit from a plumber. weird


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Redwood said:


> Actually it would be the air in the tank needs to go somewhere, however it is extremely rare that a septic system is that tight that air cannot escape from the tank. The only time I have ever seen that was on a tank that had just been emptied and the house had a house trap leaving the house, evidently the initial filling of the tank was too much air volume to get rid of instead of the usual water in and water out to the leaching...
> 
> I think you might have something you haven't figured out yet like perhaps a belly in the line giving you a double trap effect or a partial clog...


I can't say for sure there isn't a runnin trap on that sewer line or a real bad belly in it, but I don't think it is,but unless I get a camara or dig it up I will never know,reason for posting this in the first place was to see if any of you guys had ever ran into a similar situation as this.it is just the first time I have seen a toilet not flush cause a vent was plugged or no vent at all!!


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sparky said:


> I can't say for sure there isn't a runnin trap on that sewer line or a real bad belly in it, but I don't think it is,but unless I get a camara or dig it up I will never know,reason for posting this in the first place was to see if any of you guys had ever ran into a similar situation as this.it is just the first time I have seen a toilet not flush cause a vent was plugged or no vent at all!!


Nope... Not without another defect.
The volume in a septic is water in and water out so the air volume doesn't change...

Only when the tank is initially filling...


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## NyNick (Feb 14, 2013)

There was a vent. Its called a wet vent...or the wrong way of doing a wet vent. Whoever installed that wanted to vent the terlet with the lav vent. The water closet was gurgling when you ran the lav because it's venting through the lavs drain instead of the lavs waste line. That is probably why there is a 4" cast iron pipe instead of 3".


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## plumsolver (Apr 7, 2011)

We went to a job the other day were the 3" vent stack was ran up into a wall behind tub and never finished ( house had to be 20 yrs old) up through roof w.c wasn't flushing etc. 
Once we found there was no vent in attic but was in crawlspace we investigated further... the holes were drilled and everything just had to poke up through drywall into attic roofer coming next day to extend through roof, we opened the 3" drain and installed a c.o but drain was clear... once we ran vent up out of wall wc flushed no problem. Now my question is would the stack not get enough air in wall to work?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Oh come on. Not this again. Toilets don't need vents. They self siphon. That huge area of water in the bowl is the vent. If you need to vent it to make it flush it's because of an obstruction, sag or rise in the drain.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Amazing how many "Plumber's" don't grasp the concept for venting...

The idea that a drain works just peachy freakin keen without a vent was a concept that was already well known and established in the late 1800's...

SMH

A trap might not do very well but a drain will....


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Oh come on. Not this again. Toilets don't need vents. They self siphon. That huge area of water in the bowl is the vent. If you need to vent it to make it flush it's because of an obstruction, sag or rise in the drain.


You can say what you want to but on the toilet that I first posted about would not flush or even go down unless the wax seal was leaking or the vent was cleaned out,then it would knock the bottom out of it,and the line was open,when I had toilet pulled up I filled everything in the house and dropped all at one time and it ran out like a river,didn't even try to back up.i have been in old houses with no vents at all and toilet would flush good,but they were on city sewer,when you have a house on a septic tank and no vent that changes things,that air has to go somewhere don't it:yes:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sparky said:


> You can say what you want to but on the toilet that I first posted about would not flush or even go down unless the wax seal was leaking or the vent was cleaned out,then it would knock the bottom out of it,and the line was open,when I had toilet pulled up I filled everything in the house and dropped all at one time and it ran out like a river,didn't even try to back up.i have been in old houses with no vents at all and toilet would flush good,but they were on city sewer,when you have a house on a septic tank and no vent that changes things,that air has to go somewhere don't it:yes:


What air has to go from where to where?

Please splain it to me...:whistling2:


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Redwood said:


> What air has to go from where to where?
> 
> Please splain it to me...:whistling2:


The air in the house drain,and in the sewer,:whistling2:


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

i had a call yesterday. per the ho, 2 showers girgle when the toilets are flushed. both have a poor flush. the fireplace doesnt draft as well. ??? just had a new furnace and pv water heater installed before the problems started. sounds like a negative pressure issue for the fireplace and a blocked sewer. he said no, its the plumbing vent. he checked on-line and thats the problem. i went and looked. the filter on the septic tanked was blocked. removed it and cleaned it and all is good. its not always a venting issue. as for the fireplace, call a pro in that field.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Of course toilets need to vent. If people sat on you and did poop each day, you'd need to vent too!........


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## BC73RS (Jan 25, 2014)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> sounds like a negative pressure issue for the fireplace and a blocked sewer. he said no, its the plumbing vent. he checked on-line and thats the problem. i went and looked.


I like to hear that people go online to solve their problems, makes us more valuable, I'm liking this lol.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sparky said:


> The air in the house drain,and in the sewer,:whistling2:


Ummmm Yea Okay...:blink:

Sounds like plumbing fundamentalism to me...:laughing:

Where in the pipe between the toilet and the city sewer is there air that builds a pressure stopping the flow of waste water?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

sparky said:


> You can say what you want to but on the toilet that I first posted about would not flush or even go down unless the wax seal was leaking or the vent was cleaned out,then it would knock the bottom out of it,and the line was open,when I had toilet pulled up I filled everything in the house and dropped all at one time and it ran out like a river,didn't even try to back up.i have been in old houses with no vents at all and toilet would flush good,but they were on city sewer,when you have a house on a septic tank and no vent that changes things,that air has to go somewhere don't it:yes:


I don't care, I don't care, I DONT CARE  you are WRONG, you're thinking is WRONG. Go get an electricians license because you don't understand plumbing AT ALL!!!!! ARRRRRRRGGGGGGG 

I'm having an aneurism !


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I don't care, I don't care, I DONT CARE  you are WRONG, you're thinking is WRONG. Go get an electricians license because you don't understand plumbing AT ALL!!!!! ARRRRRRRGGGGGGG
> 
> I'm having an aneurism !


Maybe? With all the cold in the country, Kentucky got some Hor Frost and
it closed the vent{s}?


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

i wish i could take you to this house and show you what im talkin about,that is the only way i can get you to understand what is going on,plain and simple,you can have a stroke and it still would not flush unless the vent was cleaned out or the wax ring was leaking.i cant make you believe it,but that is just the way it is


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Maybe? With all the cold in the country, Kentucky got some Hor Frost and
> it closed the vent{s}?


no,that is not it,and i think maybe that was a joke????if you will reread the first post on here,you will see what was going on


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

All the vent is doing is giving the trapped air someplace to go. Note the two words trapped air. :thumbsup:


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

I have seen 1 toilet going into a lift pit with a sealed lid and no vent that would not flush properly. the trapped air needed someplace to go. I have seen on 2 seperate occations toilets going into septic tanks not flush properly because of no vent. I assume the septic systems were in good working order not sure about that but the drain going to the septic was fine.

I do know if I spent my time looking for plugged vents like my plumbing buddies and customers want me to. I would never have time to clear the blockages in the drains and fix the problem


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I don't care, I don't care, I DONT CARE  you are WRONG, you're thinking is WRONG. Go get an electricians license because you don't understand plumbing AT ALL!!!!! ARRRRRRRGGGGGGG
> 
> I'm having an aneurism !


Here get your helmet on...:laughing:
Quick before your head explodes...


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## NyNick (Feb 14, 2013)

Redwood said:


> sparky said:
> 
> 
> > The air in the house drain,and in the sewer,
> ...


In a high rise if the water closet is not properly vented the trap can be blown out do to back pressure as opposed to syphonage.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

NyNick said:


> In a high rise if the water closet is not properly vented the trap can be blown out do to back pressure as opposed to syphonage.


Correct! Vents protect the trap seal...:thumbup:

The waste water will drain...


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

nhmaster3015 said:


> All the vent is doing is giving the trapped air someplace to go. Note the two words trapped air. :thumbsup:


According to redwood there is no trapped air in the system


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

saysflushable said:


> I have seen 1 toilet going into a lift pit with a sealed lid and no vent that would not flush properly. the trapped air needed someplace to go. I have seen on 2 seperate occations toilets going into septic tanks not flush properly because of no vent. I assume the septic systems were in good working order not sure about that but the drain going to the septic was fine.
> 
> I do know if I spent my time looking for plugged vents like my plumbing buddies and customers want me to. I would never have time to clear the blockages in the drains and fix the problem


So did you "clear the drain and fix the problem" or are you just stating this to agree with your plbing buddies here???:laughing:


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

saysflushable said:


> I have seen 1 toilet going into a lift pit with a sealed lid and no vent that would not flush properly. the trapped air needed someplace to go. I have seen on 2 seperate occations toilets going into septic tanks not flush properly because of no vent. I assume the septic systems were in good working order not sure about that but the drain going to the septic was fine.
> 
> I do know if I spent my time looking for plugged vents like my plumbing buddies and customers want me to. I would never have time to clear the blockages in the drains and fix the problem


In this particular house where this happened you will see where I posted that the drain was open,when we had toilet pulled up and looking into pipe we had a full washer draining out along with two full bowls at kitchen,full lav,and about 4" water in the tub all dropped at the same time and it went out no problem at all,so that is a pretty good indicator that the line is not blocked,I see what everybody is saying but there are exceptions to everything,esp man made plumbing,anything manmade can and will fail some time or another.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> All the vent is doing is giving the trapped air someplace to go. Note the two words trapped air. :thumbsup:





sparky said:


> According to redwood there is no trapped air in the system


Unless a problem exists with the line...
So our electrshun in training needs to get his snake boy hat on and fix the problem that is making the air trapped...:yes:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sparky said:


> In this particular house where this happened you will see where I posted that the drain was open,when we had toilet pulled up and looking into pipe we had a full washer draining out along with two full bowls at kitchen,full lav,and about 4" water in the tub all dropped at the same time and it went out no problem at all,so that is a pretty good indicator that the line is not blocked,I see what everybody is saying but there are exceptions to everything,esp man made plumbing,anything manmade can and will fail some time or another.


Did you camera the line?:blink:


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

sparky said:


> So did you "clear the drain and fix the problem" or are you just stating this to agree with your plbing buddies here???:laughing:


 I am mostly agreeing with you in this situation. I consider our septics a closed system because often they have a 90 pointing down on the inlet side to just below the water, No vent, No good flush, even with the 90 pointing down on the outlet side going into the middle 1/3 of the tank I believe it causes a closed system. That is why 1 of the people would have toilets and sinks gurgle for no reason even in the middle of the night, I think sewer gas escapeing through the traps was the easiest route of escape. I could be wrong


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

saysflushable said:


> I am mostly agreeing with you in this situation. I consider our septics a closed system because often they have a 90 pointing down on the inlet side to just below the water, No vent, No good flush, even with the 90 pointing down on the outlet side going into the middle 1/3 of the tank I believe it causes a closed system. That is why 1 of the people would have toilets and sinks gurgle for no reason even in the middle of the night, I think sewer gas escapeing through the traps was the easiest route of escape. I could be wrong


90* el going into below shwt level in septic tank????!!??? Wtf??? Nobody in right mind do that around here..


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

rjbphd said:


> 90* el going into below shwt level in septic tank????!!??? Wtf??? Nobody in right mind do that around here..


 I have no idea why it ever started here or why it is sometimes used. I will tell you it does not cause as many blockages as you might imagine, but it does cause a few.


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## wyplumber (Feb 14, 2013)

Vents are way over rated. 

A contractor called to tell me the homeowner did not like the fact we used "vent caps" for his plumbing vents. 

Well ran over to see what he was talking about and at this three year old house i forgot :whistling2: the cut the caps off from the rough in test. 

Oh what a fun job on a 12/12 roof with a foot of snow on it.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

rjbphd said:


> 90* el going into below shwt level in septic tank????!!??? Wtf??? Nobody in right mind do that around here..


I agree there should be a baffle or, a tee used on the inlet and outlet...


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

wyplumber said:


> Oh what a fun job on a 12/12 roof with a foot of snow on it.


12/12 roof isn't fun even on a beautiful spring day while you are wearing your stickiest shoes.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Redwood said:


> Did you camera the line?:blink:


No no camera,don't have one buttttttt,the septic tank was put in new 3yrs ago with new laterals,don't know if outside sewer was put in new or not,but it was less than 20'-0" from the house to the tank,the way the water went out when we dropped everything is fair to say there is nothing wrong with the sewer line


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Redwood said:


> I agree there should be a baffle or, a tee used on the inlet and outlet...


Or nothing on the inlet,as long as you have one on the outlet you are fine


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sparky said:


> No no camera,don't have one buttttttt,the septic tank was put in new 3yrs ago with new laterals,don't know if outside sewer was put in new or not,but it was less than 20'-0" from the house to the tank,the way the water went out when we dropped everything is fair to say there is nothing wrong with the sewer line


Why don't you just say, "I Dunno" and save time...


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

sparky said:


> Or nothing on the inlet,as long as you have one on the outlet you are fine


 I agree. I have no idea why even a T is sometimes used on the inlet. it seem 100% useless to have anything other than an open pipe.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sparky said:


> Or nothing on the inlet,as long as you have one on the outlet you are fine





saysflushable said:


> I agree. I have no idea why even a T is sometimes used on the inlet. it seem 100% useless to have anything other than an open pipe.


Baffles in a septic tank are way over rated...

Hell! Why not just run a straight pipe to the leaching fields...:laughing:


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Baffles in a septic tank are way over rated...
> 
> Hell! Why not just run a straight pipe to the leaching fields...:laughing:


 What is a baffle in a septic tank. I only see baffles in oil or grease seperators. Our septic tanks are just big tanks with a pipe coming in mostly open sometimes with a 90 pointing down and even less with a T. then a 90 pointing down on the outlet with a pipe attached to about the middle 1/3 of the tank. any big advantage to baffles?


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

From what i have been taught, the baffle or tee is there to keep the incoming waste and h2o from stirring up the solids in the septic tank. We have to use a tee, with a section of pipe extending below the scum layer, instead of a 90* on the inlet pipe so you can clean it out easier if it does clog up right there. That actually doesn't happen too often around here. I haven't used an actual baffle in the past 8 years, i guess the tee is now the baffle. This could all be debated on if a tee is good on the inlet, some say no, some say yes and all have their ideas why.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Redwood said:


> Why don't you just say, "I Dunno" and save time...



i believe that can go both ways here:yes::yes::laughing::laughing:


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Redwood said:


> Baffles in a septic tank are way over rated...
> 
> Hell! Why not just run a straight pipe to the leaching fields...:laughing:


As long as you have baffle on OUTLET side you are fine,only thing baffle good for on inlet is stopping the line up,nothing else:yes:


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

chonkie said:


> From what i have been taught, the baffle or tee is there to keep the incoming waste and h2o from stirring up the solids in the septic tank. We have to use a tee, with a section of pipe extending below the scum layer, instead of a 90* on the inlet pipe so you can clean it out easier if it does clog up right there. That actually doesn't happen too often around here. I haven't used an actual baffle in the past 8 years, i guess the tee is now the baffle. This could all be debated on if a tee is good on the inlet, some say no, some say yes and all have their ideas why.


Have to be some massive flow to "stir the solids"


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

I disagree that it would have to be massive flow, but it's all theory to me now anyways since I personally have never tested what I have been taught. I've never sat there and watched a live system being used in real time to see what the turds do to the scum layer and how that affects what is going on in the other sections of the tank. I have seen older systems that didn't have a tee or baffle on the inlet and they had many full term turds and other trash sitting on top of the scum layer. Thereby the waste was not being processed by the bacteria, it just sat there waiting to be pumped out. 

I've done plenty of maintenance on the ones we install, and we install a septic on pretty much every single house we do. I have not once come across a clogged tee on the inlet. Maybe our customers listen when I tell them to not use their disposal so much, flush what they aren't supposed to or pour grease down the drain. If they know doing all that bad stuff makes them have to spend more $ to get the trash tank pumped more often, it seems to resonate with them more so they don't do it as much.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sparky said:


> Have to be some massive flow to "stir the solids"


Have you ever had to clean a filter on the outlet?:whistling2::laughing:


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Have you ever had to clean a filter on the outlet?:whistling2::laughing:


 I dont think we have filters on the outlets of our septic tanks, but I guess I dont know, I dont deal with that side of the tank


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sparky said:


> i believe that can go both ways here:yes::yes::laughing::laughing:


Hardly...


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Not really a filter on the outlet, but a tee with a filter between the treatment tank and the pump tank. At least with what we install.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

................


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Haven't used the type you show Red. Here's what we use. The one you posted looks like a big brush, that would suck to have to clean. I would almost rather throw in a new one.


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Come to think of it, different filters for different system. We don't install leach systems. Soil type around here doesn't allow it, i think too much clay. That's why i said no filter on outlet for us. The chlorinator would go between the treatment tank and pump tank. Last time we used the infiltrator system panels was the last time we had to use an outlet filter.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

That's why I built outhouse...


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

This is basically our tank setups, but it is poured as a single piece instead of three seperate tanks.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Redwood said:


> Hardly...


Oh yea,nothing anybody has said here can explain why this was happening other than an air locked system,nothing


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Redwood said:


> Have you ever had to clean a filter on the outlet?:whistling2::laughing:


Whatyatalkinboutwillis???we don't use filters,straight out of tank into d-box or hillside boxes


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sparky said:


> Whatyatalkinboutwillis???we don't use filters,straight out of tank into d-box or hillside boxes


You use SDR-30 coming out of the trailers?:laughing:


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

Now I'm positive we don't use filters


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

It sounds like you had a blockage right past the toilet. Depending on location in the house, maybe dropping all that water was past that so it seemed clear. Then when you cut that stack outside and flushed it out, that flushing cleared the blockage that was in the drain pipe right past that toilet.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

chonkie said:


> It sounds like you had a blockage right past the toilet.


He wouldn't know...:laughing:

He just wants to claim a blocked vent will stop drains from working in a situation other than a closed container where air needs to be displaced to allow waste water to enter, such as a sealed ejector pit, and in some rare cases a septic tank. I've never seen it on a septic tank except when the tank is initially filling after a cleaning, because most of the time once the tank is filled, the liquid level in the tank is fairly constant so there is no need for a volume of air to escape...

He chooses to ignore a 100+ years of plumbing teaching about venting...


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

chonkie said:


> This is basically our tank setups, but it is poured as a single piece instead of three seperate tanks.


This is your TYPICAL tank install chonkie? Very interesting. Only system like this I have ever seen was in a state park in the Florida Keys. It was a municipal system that was being set up for reclaim water. Every residential system that I have ever seen was a simple tank straight to drain field application. Maybe that has to do with the fact that approximately 6' of excavation will yield water here, so reclaim isn't cost effective. 

Ok, derail over. Back to the bickering.


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## joeburgio (Jul 31, 2014)

*Love that Jackie*



plbgbiz said:


> ...
> View attachment 33878


 And then some....


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I don't understand how someone can hold a plumbers license and not understand this simple concept of sanitary plumbing. Air should never have to be "let out". Air circulates through the system balancing both positive and negative pressures within the drainage system and protecting trap seals. If a drain will not act properly it is always due to an obstruction, a rise, a sag or an improperly graded horizontal. Cutting a vent in to improve the situation is only a stop gap measure because all it's really doing is giving the trapped and compressed air a place to go temporarily without fixing the problem. This whole thread would go away if the OP had access to a sewer camera.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

chonkie said:


> It sounds like you had a blockage right past the toilet. Depending on location in the house, maybe dropping all that water was past that so it seemed clear. Then when you cut that stack outside and flushed it out, that flushing cleared the blockage that was in the drain pipe right past that toilet.


Maybe that is a remote possibility,but I don't see it happening


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I don't understand how someone can hold a plumbers license and not understand this simple concept of sanitary plumbing. Air should never have to be "let out". Air circulates through the system balancing both positive and negative pressures within the drainage system and protecting trap seals. If a drain will not act properly it is always due to an obstruction, a rise, a sag or an improperly graded horizontal. Cutting a vent in to improve the situation is only a stop gap measure because all it's really doing is giving the trapped and compressed air a place to go temporarily without fixing the problem. This whole thread would go away if the OP had access to a sewer camera.


I guarantee you that I could camera that line,put it all on tape,show it on here and the same ones would still say they are right and everyone else is wrong,that is just the way it is here in cyber plbing God land:laughing:


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## hawkeye77 (Feb 20, 2009)

I was sent to a house last year to investigate why a toilet would not flush on a second floor bathroom it was a new house owners just moved in a few days before. 
I wasn't involved in the original install. But here in MI air admittance valve are approved for use and had been used to vent the bathroom group. With the air admittance valve removed the toilet flushed fine because it allowed air to escape as described in this thread by others.

I think without the use of an air admittance valve this problem would have gone unnoticed for some time. But in this case it brought attention to the issue. There were no backups in the basement and all others plumbing in the house was working just fine. 

But when I pulled the main cleanout in the basement I found what I had expected the horizontal building drain was installed incorrectly and he drain was back pitched for several feet outside the home. 

This water in the pipe would not allow the air to move out. I suspect the same problem the OP had until he cleared this vent .


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## pianoplumber (Apr 19, 2014)

Shot-gun a beer and tell me proper venting is unnecessary.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

pianoplumber said:


> Shot-gun a beer and tell me proper venting is unnecessary.


Explain to me how your analogy is relevant with open air in the room above the water level in the bowl and an open drain to a sewer...

Your comparison is the same as the finger over the straw which is also irrelevant...

To match your scenario we'd have to fill the internal water passages of the toilet with grout or epoxy, and then place an airtight cover over the bowl...

But what would be the point of that?

Even then what difference would a vent through the roof behind the toilet make?

Even drain cleaners know this stuff...
What is wrong with you plumbers?


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I don't understand how someone can hold a plumbers license and not understand this simple concept of sanitary plumbing. Air should never have to be "let out". Air circulates through the system balancing both positive and negative pressures within the drainage system and protecting trap seals. If a drain will not act properly it is always due to an obstruction, a rise, a sag or an improperly graded horizontal. Cutting a vent in to improve the situation is only a stop gap measure because all it's really doing is giving the trapped and compressed air a place to go temporarily without fixing the problem. This whole thread would go away if the OP had access to a sewer camera.


 so you dont think a 90 pointing into the septic tank is enough of an obstruction to require a place for air to go for a toilet to flush properly? 

Im just curious, remember all that is required to know to become a plumber is how to properly vent or install a plumbing system to code. Knowing how or why it works is not at all required. at least in Mi.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

The only thing a vent does is protect trap seals, unless you have a bad plumbing system that has a belly or partial stoppage. On a septic system that is a closed system depending on how the tank was plumbed in, do you septic guys typically install a vent on the septic tank? , if not it is a closed system and a plumbing vent might come into play. Especially if you don't have a tee installed at the inlet side of the tank and 90 is there instead, a tee there would allow air displacement to take place and make all the difference, it would still be a closed system without a vent on the tank ran back to the house.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

saysflushable said:


> so you dont think a 90 pointing into the septic tank is enough of an obstruction to require a place for air to go for a toilet to flush properly?
> 
> Im just curious, remember all that is required to know to become a plumber is how to properly vent or install a plumbing system to code. Knowing how or why it works is not at all required


*1st... One thing that has never been said in any of these numerous venting threads is that vents are not required. Of course they are! You know that NH Master wouldn't teach his trade school students to put together a DWV system without proper venting. You should also know that I wouldn't plumb a DWV system for a customer without proper venting...*

What we are saying is that if a drain doesn't drain, toilet doesn't flush etc. that in most cases it is a clogged drain or some other defect in the drain that is causing the problem with the drain. A drain will almost always drain just fine without a vent.

The only legitimate thing where a vent may stop drainage is on a closed sealed container such as an ejector pit. There may be other other things but I can't think of them.

Illegitimate reasons would be a blockage in the drain, a belly in the line, or a house trap with a blocked vent creating a double trap. With these items a vent would be needed to allow the line to fill and mask the underlying problem. A vent will not solve the problem it will only mask the underlying problem.

An AAV or Studor vent has no bearing in this discussion because it will not let air escape, and will only contribute stupidity to this discussion...


Saysflushable,
The downturned elbow you mention may possibly be a problem and I would not consider it to be a good practice, a tee open at the top, would be a better practice.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

justme said:


> The only thing a vent does is protect trap seals, unless you have a bad plumbing system that has a belly or partial stoppage. On a septic system that is a closed system depending on how the tank was plumbed in, do you septic guys typically install a vent on the septic tank? , if not it is a closed system and a plumbing vent might come into play. Especially if you don't have a tee installed at the inlet side of the tank and 90 is there instead, a tee there would allow air displacement to take place and make all the difference, it would still be a closed system without a vent on the tank ran back to the house.


Actually the septic tank has an inlet, and outlet, with a liquid level that has little variance. I would not narrowly define it as a closed system, but in some cases it may act like one.

I agree 100% with everything else you stated...


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Redwood said:


> Actually the septic tank has an inlet, and outlet, with a liquid level that has little variance. I would not narrowly define it as a closed system, but in some cases it may act like one.
> 
> I agree 100% with everything else you stated...



I only stated that because all the other tanks (grease,oil or dirt interceptors) along with pits that we install are all properly vented by code to help with the displace of air to allow proper drainage whether it be gravity or pump. But I also agree that a toilet doesn't need a vent to flush if the plumbing system isn't backed up and the piping is installed correctly. Venting was started up north to protect the trap seals in multistory buildings, because when someone dumped a lot of water or flushed a crapper it would siphon the traps out on the other fixtures above or below .


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

I don't run vents at all. The overflow on the sink and tub will suffice. Lol


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

jmc12185 said:


> I don't run vents at all. The overflow on the sink and tub will suffice. Lol


:laughing: Except your "Vent" is on the wrong side of the trap.:laughing:


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

Redwood said:


> :laughing: Except your "Vent" is on the wrong side of the trap.:laughing:


 sh*t, guess that's why the inspectors never except my explanation. Lol


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

Redwood said:


> *1st... One thing that has never been said in any of these numerous venting threads is that vents are not required. Of course they are! You know that NH Master wouldn't teach his trade school students to put together a DWV system without proper venting. You should also know that I wouldn't plumb a DWV system for a customer without proper venting...*
> 
> What we are saying is that if a drain doesn't drain, toilet doesn't flush etc. that in most cases it is a clogged drain or some other defect in the drain that is causing the problem with the drain. A drain will almost always drain just fine without a vent.
> 
> ...


 Well I guess all I learned from all this is if I ever find anouther toilet that won;t flush because of a 90 in a tank and a plugged vent or vented with AAVs I will unplug the vent or try to put an open to atmosphere vent someplace. I could try to cut the 90 off but It probebly wont be under the lid anyway:laughing:


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

saysflushable said:


> Well I guess all I learned from all this is if I ever find anouther toilet that won;t flush because of a 90 in a tank and a plugged vent or vented with AAVs I will unplug the vent or try to put an open to atmosphere vent someplace. I could try to cut the 90 off but It probebly wount be under the lid anyway:laughing:


That's why u need really long arms and use the cheapo sawall on the gfci circut..


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Drill a big hole in the top of the 90, there's yer vent!


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## pianoplumber (Apr 19, 2014)

Redwood said:


> Explain to me how your analogy is relevant with open air in the room above the water level in the bowl and an open drain to a sewer...
> 
> Your comparison is the same as the finger over the straw which is also irrelevant...
> 
> ...


Fill every trap in your house, cap off all your roof vents, close all your windows and doors, then explain to me why my "shot-gun beer" comment is irrelevant. 
I'm not talking about "shot-gunning" the toilet by "opening" a window. The "can of beer" is the building drain/building sewer.
I admit individual vents are not always necessary (battery vented closets, stack vented groups, combination waste and vent systems, old farm houses, my house...),...but, the building drain/building sewer MUST be vented somewhere, somehow, even if it is your neighbors stack vent that is actually venting your house too.
If you pour a beer into a glass full of air, the air has to go somewhere. It doesn't just disappear. Does it go into the leach field? The sewage treatment plant? The leaks in the plumbing system? Or back into the bathroom in the form of burping and gurgling?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Here is some readings from the plumbing books of the dead men...











[.......]










[.......]










[.......]











*The quote below is especially important to this discussion as it states that a stoppage of a vent is more dangerous than a stoppage of the waste line...

Because a waste stoppage will back up into a fixture being noticed...

While a vent stoppage will not be noticed unless you take the pipes apart and see the stoppage.*


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

pianoplumber said:


> Fill every trap in your house, cap off all your roof vents, close all your windows and doors, then explain to me why my "shot-gun beer" comment is irrelevant.
> I'm not talking about "shot-gunning" the toilet by "opening" a window. The "can of beer" is the building drain/building sewer.
> I admit individual vents are not always necessary (battery vented closets, stack vented groups, combination waste and vent systems, old farm houses, my house...),...but, the building drain/building sewer MUST be vented somewhere, somehow, even if it is your neighbors stack vent that is actually venting your house too.
> If you pour a beer into a glass full of air, the air has to go somewhere. It doesn't just disappear. Does it go into the leach field? The sewage treatment plant? The leaks in the plumbing system? Or back into the bathroom in the form of burping and gurgling?


Look at it simply in your example as you are placing your "Vent" on the wrong side of the trap.
If you can't see that, then I'm sorry but I can't help you...

Maybe NH Master could explain it in simpler terms...
I can't...


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## pianoplumber (Apr 19, 2014)

I think you misunderstand me, Redwood. I'm not talking about air that's on the "wrong side of the trap". That doesn't make sense. All I'm trying to say is that a building drainage system must be vented. This is just my opinion from my own experiences.


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

All this talk of shotgunning beer is making me thirsty.

Time for a Shiner and a peanut butter sammich!


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

pianoplumber said:


> I think you misunderstand me, Redwood. I'm not talking about air that's on the "wrong side of the trap". That doesn't make sense. All I'm trying to say is that a building drainage system must be vented. This is just my opinion from my own experiences.


I don't dispute the need for vents at all...:no:

But in your shotgunning a beer example your vent is on the wrong side of the trap so it is irrelevant...


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## BumbleBee (Jan 24, 2015)

sparky said:


> I know,I'm tryin to watch moonshiners while typing this and let it go lololo:laughing:


If you are a "moonshiners" watcher then you're okay with me! I'll let it go


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## pianoplumber (Apr 19, 2014)

My beer is not the toilet, it is the soil stack.
I may not have said anything more profound.:laughing:


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

pianoplumber said:


> Shot-gun a beer and tell me proper venting is unnecessary.


I didn't shotgun my shiner and it poured down my gullet just fine ... it wasn't instant though. Hard to poke a hole in a bottle!


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

pianoplumber said:


> My beer is not the toilet, it is the soil stack.
> I may not have said anything more profound.:laughing:


Ohhh Ohhh

A beer bong would probably have been a better analogy to use then...:laughing:


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## pianoplumber (Apr 19, 2014)

Hey, that's me!


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

hawkeye77 said:


> I was sent to a house last year to investigate why a toilet would not flush on a second floor bathroom it was a new house owners just moved in a few days before.
> I wasn't involved in the original install. But here in MI air admittance valve are approved for use and had been used to vent the bathroom group. With the air admittance valve removed the toilet flushed fine because it allowed air to escape as described in this thread by others.
> 
> I think without the use of an air admittance valve this problem would have gone unnoticed for some time. But in this case it brought attention to the issue. There were no backups in the basement and all others plumbing in the house was working just fine.
> ...


That is possible as I has no access to look into the outside sewerline,yes it could have had standing water in it


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

justme said:


> I only stated that because all the other tanks (grease,oil or dirt interceptors) along with pits that we install are all properly vented by code to help with the displace of air to allow proper drainage whether it be gravity or pump. But I also agree that a toilet doesn't need a vent to flush if the plumbing system isn't backed up and the piping is installed correctly. Venting was started up north to protect the trap seals in multistory buildings, because when someone dumped a lot of water or flushed a crapper it would siphon the traps out on the other fixtures above or below .


I think you might have something here just me,because on this house that this thread is about,the man that installed the new tank and laterals is known for either running a straight pipe into the tank or turning a 90 down into the liquid,that may be where the closed system is coming from on this piece of junk rental property:laughing::laughing:


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## BumbleBee (Jan 24, 2015)

Haha I love this thread! I agree with those who are saying that a toilet should be able to flush without a vent, but it will pull some trap seals on the way out though.  The pressure in the pipe has to get back to neutral somehow. Now if you had a lot of positive pressure trapped in the line the toilet may not flush. The pressure in the pipe is always trying to get back to neutral though, so for positive pressure to be trapped in the line something more has to be wrong. By cutting the vent you relieved the positive pressure, but the pressure should of been able to be equalized in other ways.


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