# Closet Flange ?



## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

Recently I have run into a problem with the pvc closet flanges cracking at the slot where the closet bolts go. I have been replacing the whole flange to fix this. sometimes this can get to be a pain expecially where the flange is set into concrete. My question is do they make a brass or metal split flange that slides over the old flange. I think I have seen these a long time ago but don't remember where or who makes them. Any info would be appreciated. thanks


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

This is why people should stub up 4" for toilets so the flange can be glued on the inside. Inside flanges are simple to get out and replace.


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## user2091 (Sep 27, 2009)

Should be able to pick one up at the local hardware store. i just saw some at Ace.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> This is why people should stub up 4" for toilets so the flange can be glued on the inside. Inside flanges are simple to get out and replace.


That would be a code violation here.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Killertoiletspider said:


> That would be a code violation here.


 Your the exception..not the rule They dont have a valid reason for it other than its in the "CODE"


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Go with ABS, less problems.


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

The local supply should have something like this one by Superior Tool









Also, I agree with TM, all my flanges are glued inside, makes it easier to remove if they have too. I rough all mine in with 4x3 closet bends even on two stories.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Look at the Sioux Chief # 888PM Glues inside 3" pipe ,, LLLOOONNNGGGG tail in case you need it or can be cut off .

AND BEFORE I TAKE AN ASS WHI**ING --- it is LARGER then the horn of the toilets and does NOT restrict any flow . Tried and Proved itself MANY times for this old timer


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Go with ABS, less problems.


Theres no problem with any of it if the flange is installed correctly and secured to the floor. The floor must be proper also. No uneven tile. If you install the toilet right the 1st time.....it will be the last time you see the bottom of it. Poor new construction hacks are the cause of most of my work and the inferior products they use. Thank GOD for them:whistling2:. In 10 years I've replaced 3 flappers in my home.....a repair plumber would starve if I plumbed all the houses:laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Cal said:


> Look at the Sioux Chief # 888PM Glues inside 3" pipe ,, LLLOOONNNGGGG tail in case you need it or can be cut off .
> 
> AND BEFORE I TAKE AN ASS WHI**ING --- it is LARGER then the horn of the toilets and does NOT restrict any flow . Tried and Proved itself MANY times for this old timer


 I have one of those instock and you are correct they do work.:thumbsup: I still prefer the 4" stubbed up because those sioux chief flanges are a specialty item.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Cal said:


> Look at the Sioux Chief # 888PM Glues inside 3" pipe ,, LLLOOONNNGGGG tail in case you need it or can be cut off .
> 
> AND BEFORE I TAKE AN ASS WHI**ING --- it is LARGER then the horn of the toilets and does NOT restrict any flow . Tried and Proved itself MANY times for this old timer


Is that a stainless steel ring?


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Cal said:


> Look at the Sioux Chief # 888PM Glues inside 3" pipe ,, LLLOOONNNGGGG tail in case you need it or can be cut off .
> 
> AND BEFORE I TAKE AN ASS WHI**ING --- it is LARGER then the horn of the toilets and does NOT restrict any flow . Tried and Proved itself MANY times for this old timer


Agreed 100%. It also has the SS flange which is much better then the all abs or pvc style.


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

And don't forget, once you set a wc, if on mable or tile-grout it, if on wood floor,vinyl- adhesive caulk not dap 

Not doing the above under the bowl leads to 90% of the calls I get due to broken flanges. At least some counties here are now checking that on final inspections..


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

How does using dap vs adhesive caulk lead to broken flanges? Why not just screw the flange down?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Sioux Chief also makes an offset pvc flange that has a full throat that doesn't restrict at all. Its very nice.


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

Cal said:


> Look at the Sioux Chief # 888PM Glues inside 3" pipe ,, LLLOOONNNGGGG tail in case you need it or can be cut off .
> 
> AND BEFORE I TAKE AN ASS WHI**ING --- it is LARGER then the horn of the toilets and does NOT restrict any flow . Tried and Proved itself MANY times for this old timer



Thanks for that info, did not know of one that glued into 3". Have 5 new wc's to install this week in an existing 3 story and all flanges are broken, will have to see if i can get these tomorrow.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

ESPinc said:


> Thanks for that info, did not know of one that glued into 3". Have 5 new wc's to install this week in an existing 3 story and all flanges are broken, will have to see if i can get these tomorrow.



Imagine that, there all broken :laughing:


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Your the exception..not the rule They dont have a valid reason for it other than its in the "CODE"



It's a restriction in pipe size.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ESPinc said:


> Thanks for that info, did not know of one that glued into 3". Have 5 new wc's to install this week in an existing 3 story and all flanges are broken, will have to see if i can get these tomorrow.


If you cant get them...I can just let me know if you need a phone number.:thumbsup: The Sioux Chief distributor here is a cool mofo:thumbsup:


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

gear junkie said:


> How does using dap vs adhesive caulk lead to broken flanges? Why not just screw the flange down?



Even with the flanges screwed down the floors are not level. You need to shim to make the wc level. Dap stays to flexible.. You should see some of workmanship in this state, it would make ya sick..


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

IF IF IF ,, the existing flange is EVEN with the floor or lower ,,, these things are real nice that ( in some instances ) you can glue it in the pipe directly over the existing flange ,,, then screw / secure through the old flange in to subfloor .

And YES Ron ,, full SS flange ,,, not that old cheap A** red / blue lined JUNK ... remember them ?


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Cal said:


> IF IF IF ,, the existing flange is EVEN with the floor or lower ,,, these things are real nice that ( in some instances ) you can glue it in the pipe directly over the existing flange ,,, then screw / secure through the old flange in to subfloor .
> 
> And YES Ron ,, full SS flange ,,, not that old cheap A** red / blue lined JUNK ... remember them ?


Yes I seen the old ones, these slip inside glue flanges are against code. 

Just saying....


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Yes I seen the old ones, these slip inside glue flanges are against code.
> 
> Just saying....



how would an inspector ever know? Serioulsy. They gonna pull and reset the toilet?:laughing: Fat chance of that ever happening.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Killertoiletspider said:


> It's a restriction in pipe size.


 You know better than this and I'm not gonna argue with you...your a master plumber. Theres no restriction...its a reduction from 4 to 3 and its allowed by alot of codes for toilets. While we are talking I have a question....WTF is up with people on gunbroker not selling ammo to cook county,IL. Are they restricting ammo sales? Also on a hunting forum I read that hunting deer with a rifle is not allowed in IL? Any truth in that or just garbage?


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> how would an inspector ever know? Serioulsy. They gonna pull and reset the toilet?:laughing: Fat chance of that ever happening.



I'm a plumber not a hack, I believe on doing it right. :yes:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> I'm a plumber not a hack, I believe on doing it right. :yes:


 Does doing somthing against your code make you a Hack even if it works?


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Does doing somthing against your code make you a Hack even if it works?


You can pipe a lav waste to drain into a toilet, will it work? Yes, does it meet code? No.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Does doing somthing against your code make you a Hack even if it works?



You can do what ever you like, your the one that has to live with your own actions.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Now boys ,,, let's remember it tis the season . I'm not condoning any code violations ,,, however as i've posted before . With SERVICE WORK my criteria is SOMETIMES 
- IS it SAFE 
- Will it give the customer 100% of it's "life" expectancy 
- Would i do this in my house 

Are we NOT allowed to turn up 4" pipe and glue a 4 x 3 flange inside it ? Isn't THAT a reduction ? 


Sometimes we have to adjust on the fly ,,,,,, I'm just saying


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> You can do what ever you like, your the one that has to live with your own actions.


 I'm willing to put in writting in public that I know more about residental repair and what works and what doesn't in my city just as well or better than anyone else that plumbs,inspects or otherwise has anything to do with plumbing. The code is not the word of GOD to me. It has alot of flaws and alot of people take it out of context. The code writers cant back up every rule in the book with facts as to why it shouldn't be done and thats one reason why codes are deleted and rewritten all the time.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Killertoiletspider said:


> You can pipe a lav waste to drain into a toilet, will it work? Yes, does it meet code? No.


 No it will not work because its not sanitary. Lets try not to take a comment out of context.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

A 4x3 closet bend is exempt from the reduction in pipe size in the direction of flow, But they have in there someplace that the inside of a pipe shall not be used as a hub. Now, I think it works fine but just speaking technically. even souix chief has a little note in thier catalot that it might not meet code in some areas. I am speaking of a flange that glues inside of a 4" pipe not the one that glues into a 3" pipe.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Plumber Jim said:


> A 4x3 closet bend is exempt from the reduction in pipe size in the direction of flow, But they have in there someplace that the inside of a pipe shall not be used as a hub. Now, I think it works fine but just speaking technically. even souix chief has a little note in thier catalot that it might not meet code in some areas. I am speaking of a flange that glues inside of a 4" pipe not the one that glues into a 3" pipe.



Understood . Thank you sir !


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## mssp (Dec 15, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> This is why people should stub up 4" for toilets so the flange can be glued on the inside. Inside flanges are simple to get out and replace.


 This is the only way to do it. I use a 3"x4" 90 under any toielt on GR


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Also on a hunting forum I read that hunting deer with a rifle is not allowed in IL? Any truth in that or just garbage?


shotgun, muzzleloader, bow.

maybe a handicap deal for crossbow- i can't remember.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Colgar said:


> shotgun, muzzleloader, bow.
> 
> maybe a handicap deal for crossbow- i can't remember.


You forgot large caliber handgun season.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Ron is name calling. IM not a hack. I just agree that glue in flanges work, and are code approved here in the Great State of FLorida.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Lets keep this on topic, this is about flanges not hunting.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Ron is name calling. IM not a hack. I just agree that glue in flanges work, and are code approved here in the Great State of FLorida.


 I did not call anyone a hack, I'm a plumber, we all are plumbers on here, we should do work on a plumbers level.

I still like your name on here, it is the best one of them all.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> I did not call anyone a hack, I'm a plumber, we all are plumbers on here, we should do work on a plumbers level.
> 
> I still like your name on here, it is the best one of them all.



Im just bustin your cat balls. I like your name too. It screams, hey, im ron.

Ron ron, fo fon, banna fanna fo fon,

lets do muck.

Muck muck fo fu.............oops.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Im just bustin your cat balls. I like your name too. It screams, hey, im ron.
> 
> Ron ron, fo fon, banna fanna fo fon,
> 
> ...



YAYAYAYAHAHAHAHAHA !!! :laughing::laughing:


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## LEAD INGOT (Jul 15, 2009)

Hey KTS, are wax rings with horns illegal where your at? That would technically be a reduction in pipe size.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

LEAD INGOT said:


> Hey KTS, are wax rings with horns illegal where your at? That would technically be a reduction in pipe size.


They are not code approved here.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Could someone please tell me what beneficial effect the horned ring has?

The toilet will flush better with no horn.

You have a 2 3/8" hole in the bottom of the toilet dropping directly into a 3 or 4 inch ID pipe. How can a horn help this process?


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

It doesn't !! just a HO thing . over time you see them "oval " or close down .

my .02


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> Could someone please tell me what beneficial effect the horned ring has?
> 
> The toilet will flush better with no horn.
> 
> You have a 2 3/8" hole in the bottom of the toilet dropping directly into a 3 or 4 inch ID pipe. How can a horn help this process?


 
It benefits a clogged toilet if it folds in on it's self, that is all it is good for.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> Could someone please tell me what beneficial effect the horned ring has?
> 
> The toilet will flush better with no horn.
> 
> You have a 2 3/8" hole in the bottom of the toilet dropping directly into a 3 or 4 inch ID pipe. How can a horn help this process?


 It's done by marketing Magic! :laughing:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

It takes forever to get a reply on this board.... Jeesh.:laughing:


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

LEAD INGOT said:


> Hey KTS, are wax rings with horns illegal where your at? That would technically be a reduction in pipe size.


Yes they are.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> It takes forever to get a reply on this board.... Jeesh.:laughing:



Try that on ct, it takes longer.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> It takes forever to get a reply on this board.... Jeesh.:laughing:


It's just we have nothing better to do.


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> This is why people should stub up 4" for toilets so the flange can be glued on the inside. Inside flanges are simple to get out and replace.


i agree!!


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> It takes forever to get a reply on this board.... Jeesh.:laughing:


I am still trying to figure out if my question was answered. :whistling2:


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

Plumber Jim said:


> A 4x3 closet bend is exempt from the reduction in pipe size in the direction of flow, But they have in there someplace that the inside of a pipe shall not be used as a hub.



As one of the local counties informed me that was do to the fact that PVC has a outside rating and approval but the inside does not. That may be the case on that foam core PVC. But here in Florida they say we can still do what we "plumbers" have done for years.

It looks like I'd be in trouble if I was out in the northwest



ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> how would an inspector ever know? Serioulsy. They gonna pull and reset the toilet?:laughing: Fat chance of that ever happening.


They used to do a flange inspection in Pinellas County to see if ya bolted it down. If the flanges were not installed on 2nd rough and you forget to call when they were down and you trimmed out, they would make you pull the wc's and recall for final. It was about the dumbess thing they ever did.


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

Bollinger plumber said:


> I am still trying to figure out if my question was answered. :whistling2:


hope so:yes:

Here is something else, I don't use these but they still make them 

spanner flange


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

ESPinc said:


> hope so:yes:
> 
> Here is something else, I don't use these but they still make them
> 
> spanner flange


I use them if the flange is just cracked, and not busted all to hell. Slip that bad boy up under that flange, tapcon it in place, and wall ah, done.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Bollinger plumber said:


> I am still trying to figure out if my question was answered. :whistling2:


The only thing on a plastic ring that I know of is the spanner flange. I use a split ring to replace the metal ring on plastic flanges. Try one of these and let me know if it works, before I buy one.





http://www.plumbingsupply.com/toilet-flange-removal-tool.html


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

The Oatey Moss Bay Replacement Flange is a great product for replacing rusted out steel rings on PVC/ABS closet flanges. Check out redwoods website...http://411plumb.com/a-great-toilet-flange-repair-for-a-rusted-painted-steel-ring.....it might work on plastic


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

GREENPLUM said:


> The Oatey Moss Bay Replacement Flange is a great product for replacing rusted out steel rings on PVC/ABS closet flanges. Check out redwoods website...http://411plumb.com/a-great-toilet-flange-repair-for-a-rusted-painted-steel-ring.....it might work on plastic


That's the one I use to replace metal rings, it fits into the groove where the old ring was. It won't work on solid plastic flanges.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

slickrick said:


> The only thing on a plastic ring that I know of is the spanner flange. I use a split ring to replace the metal ring on plastic flanges. Try one of these and let me know if it works, before I buy one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pretty cool tools. :thumbsup:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> Pretty cool tools. :thumbsup:


If I knew for sure they would work, I would get one. Just seems a little hard to believe.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

slickrick said:


> If I knew for sure they would work, I would get one. Just seems a little hard to believe.


We have enough of "those" tools. I'm a tool junky too.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I've got the* Pipe Hawg*, that thing has made me a lot of money and enabled me to make repairs that other plumbers can't. They work and make you look like a genius in front of customers. Especially on commercial jobs where the drains are in masonry walls. The old way to repair is to bust out blocks and cut out fittings and install slips or ferncos. The SlickRick way is to use a *Pipe Hawg.* I'm just sayin'


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

jjbex said:


> I've got the* Pipe Hawg*, that thing has made me a lot of money and enabled me to make repairs that other plumbers can't. They work and make you look like a genius in front of customers. Especially on commercial jobs where the drains are in masonry walls. The old way to repair is to bust out blocks and cut out fittings and install slips or ferncos. The SlickRick way is to use a *Pipe Hawg.* I'm just sayin'


Your not jerking my chain are you? They really work?


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

slickrick said:


> Your not jerking my chain are you? They really work?


 
I have used a cheaper version that that pipe hawg and it works very well. I bet that pipe hawg is really good.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> Could someone please tell me what beneficial effect the horned ring has?
> 
> The toilet will flush better with no horn.
> 
> You have a 2 3/8" hole in the bottom of the toilet dropping directly into a 3 or 4 inch ID pipe. How can a horn help this process?


If the seal isn't good you have a much higher chance of water leaking with a plastic horn...:whistling2:

Some flanges and toilets with larger outlets may have an interference problem with the plastic horn causing it to pinch closed causing clogging... :whistling2:

Those are about the only benefits I can think of...:laughing:


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## plumb4fun (Feb 18, 2009)

I use alot of the wax rings with the plastic horns...........mainly because thats the most common type sold at our supply houses, but other types can be had as well. The disadvantage I see is that a closet auger can hang up on the horn and cause a leak when yanking the cable free. Has happened to me before.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

It's funny that I regard the rings with the plastic horns as being too much of a fix for a poor rough-in yet I've spent time with a hot knife cutting a regular wax seal in half to place over another wax seal just to make up for the thickness. :blink: (those seals are usually quite a bit thicker)
And I don't know how many WC's I've pulled up that I had to scrape up plumbers putty that was installed before I was born to seal a toilet that hasn't leaked since 1949!!! 
Listen, folks... there's a right way and a wrong way, but for years they've been setting WC's on nothing more than plumbers putty or beeswax (oh, we've evolved so much!) and whatever doesn't leak and lets the commode flush first time- everytime is the method you should choose!

I still prefer the regular ol' wax ring but if the toilet is mounted solidly then that sucker should work very well until long after your retirement party!


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

slickrick said:


> Your not jerking my chain are you? They really work?


They really work. I just used my 4" to shave 1/2" off an ABS carrier nipple. The bolts were installed, and even using my flushcut adapter on my pvc saw, I couldn't cut if for crap. I got out the TimberWolf and *Pipe Hawg* and in 15 seconds I was done. You can use them to cut down pvc shower risers, they are great.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Miguel said:


> It's funny that I regard the rings with the plastic horns as being too much of a fix for a poor rough-in yet I've spent time with a hot knife cutting a regular wax seal in half to place over another wax seal just to make up for the thickness. :blink: (those seals are usually quite a bit thicker)
> And I don't know how many WC's I've pulled up that I had to scrape up plumbers putty that was installed before I was born to seal a toilet that hasn't leaked since 1949!!!
> Listen, folks... there's a right way and a wrong way, but for years they've been setting WC's on nothing more than plumbers putty or beeswax (oh, we've evolved so much!) and whatever doesn't leak and lets the commode flush first time- everytime is the method you should choose!
> 
> I still prefer the regular ol' wax ring but if the toilet is mounted solidly then that sucker should work very well until long after your retirement party!


 Get the Jumbo wax rings !! No more hot knife and mess ,,, just right !!:thumbup:


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> I use them if the flange is just cracked, and not busted all to hell. Slip that bad boy up under that flange, tapcon it in place, and wall ah, done.


 Thats what I am talking about right there. who makes them and where can I get them??


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

If this Ferguson is close to you give them a call.

1650 Madison 212, Fredericktown, MO‎ - (573) 783-7738‎


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Bollinger plumber said:


> Thats what I am talking about right there. who makes them and where can I get them??


Home Depot


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

gear junkie said:


> Home Depot


HD above buy cheap buy twice lol


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

These are great toooo
http://www.siouxchief.com/Drainage/ResidentialDrainage/Closet-Flanges/Ringer.829NY


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## LEAD INGOT (Jul 15, 2009)

GREENPLUM said:


> These are great toooo
> http://www.siouxchief.com/Drainage/ResidentialDrainage/Closet-Flanges/Ringer.829NY


 The Sioux Chief TKO SS collars are the only ones I use. I didn't know they just sold the ring. If I needed one in the past I would cut it off the collar. What's the price on the ring only? I'm spending about $4.00 a piece on the 4" x 3" TKO collar.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> I did not call anyone a hack, I'm a plumber, we all are plumbers on here, we should do work on a plumbers level.
> 
> I still like your name on here, it is the best one of them all.


I am now offended.
I guess the only one who thinks my name is cool is prolly Protech, I reckon.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

LEAD INGOT said:


> The Sioux Chief TKO SS collars are the only ones I use. I didn't know they just sold the ring. If I needed one in the past I would cut it off the collar. What's the price on the ring only? I'm spending about $4.00 a piece on the 4" x 3" TKO collar.


The Sioux Chief "ringer" goes over the existing flange , giving you a brand new ring using the old flange. Simply screw the ringer over the old flange...done


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

GREENPLUM said:


> The Sioux Chief "ringer" goes over the existing flange , giving you a brand new ring using the old flange. Simply screw the ringer over the old flange...done



Used those too. I like them as well.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

ESPinc said:


> HD above buy cheap buy twice lol


That's What HD sells is Sioux Chief. Along with Fernco, Charlotte, Mueller, Watts and Nibco. They're starting to get a decent selection of quality stuff. Pay more at a supply house if you really want. Plus they're open till 10 and on sat and sun.


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