# This could get interesting.....



## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

With a large group including me excited about our profession, what do you see as the biggest downfall for our future in the trade?

For me... besides the obvious big box industry, we see a lack of youth here in FL. Our state has seen sharp declines in the educational end of our trade over the past ten years. During the New Const/ housing boom young men were being trained on one aspect of residential like trim and cut loose in trucks and called plumbers from then on. 

Is this happening in your areas also?

This could end up being good for our pocket books today but I feel the industry as a whole will suffer down the road.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Proud Plumber said:


> Our state has seen sharp declines in the educational end of our trade over the past ten years. During the New Const/ housing boom young men were being trained on one aspect of residential like trim and cut loose in trucks and called plumbers from then on.
> 
> Is this happening in your areas also?
> 
> This could end up being good for our pocket books today but I feel the industry as a whole will suffer down the road.


I'm on quite a few forums. One thing that I find scary Is the fact that there are such wide differences in the quality of education plumbers get in different states. There are clearly some states that are tougher than others and I cringe at some of the questions and answers I see posted... I'm talking ones that are coming from a licensed master plumber that I'd whack a 1st year apprentice in the back of the head for not knowing.

I think alot of this is due to the fact that there are so many different codes in use and there is no standardization. This is probably what leads to the differences in education. If we were having one code the education could be standardized along with the license requirements.

That'll be the day!:laughing:


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Redwood said:


> I'm on quite a few forums. One thing that I find scary Is the fact that there are such wide differences in the quality of education plumbers get in different states. There are clearly some states that are tougher than others and I cringe at some of the questions and answers I see posted... I'm talking ones that are coming from a licensed master plumber that I'd whack a 1st year apprentice in the back of the head for not knowing.
> 
> I think alot of this is due to the fact that there are so many different codes in use and there is no standardization. This is probably what leads to the differences in education. If we were having one code the education could be standardized along with the license requirements.
> 
> That'll be the day!:laughing:


I agree. Unfortunately, some states are full of morons. The plumbing standards here are pathetic compared to Long Island, NY where I learned the trade. I was appalled at the standards when I first moved here...cheap materials, shoddy workmanship....it is everywhere here. * The code isn't the problem here, its THE LACK OF ENFORCEMENT.* An amazing amount of unpermitted, illegal plumbing by unlicensed individuals goes on here every day. Until there is serious enforcement, I don't see it changing.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I think those 2 things are the biggest threats to our profession.

When we can have some of our own out there that have a lack of knowledge and skills the licensed pro may be no better than a hack handyman.

Yes, there does need to be strict enforcement of unlicensed individuals out there doing unpermitted work for a living. In states where the homeowner is permitted to DIY the inspection should be tough to make sure the work is right!

Both of these dilute the professionalism of our trade.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

There will never be a universal code in this country, because large cities like New York, Chicago, etc. will never give away the revenue stream they get from being able to issue their own licenses and making contractors purchase their code book. That revenue for a large city is in the millions.


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

Redwood said:


> I I cringe at some of the questions and answers I see posted... I'm talking ones that are coming from a licensed master plumber that I'd whack a 1st year apprentice in the back of the head for not knowing.
> 
> That'll be the day!:laughing:


 
I can see the frustration. Our codes here are strict, mainly due to so many hurricanes. However, I hear about 4 and 5 years of trade school. it was not a requirement for us rather a choice and I had three. Even as simple as the bottle/drum trap question i had. i have literally never seen a drum trap. All I knew as they are not legal. 

I also see huge differences in system designs. For example, Flat dry vents are completely illegal here. All of our vents have to be washed at the base of the vent stack. I have also noticed from some of the pics that all fictures get vented in other areas and here it is not the case. A small bathroom group for example most likely only has one vent at the lav and the w/c and tub are vented by the lav. Very big differences

I was fortunate, the men I started under were excellent plumbers and very hard on apprentices (we were called helpers then). They required school, it was not an option with them. I was also fortunate to work for some EX union guys that really taught me a lot.

Huge differences from my counterparts on this forum. I don't think the differences in design are as bad as just the simple educational requirements. I was raised in Wisconsin and raised union. Truly, many disclaim unions but the education and skill are second to none. unions have done more good than bad education is one area.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Industry and corporate whores that are willing to sell to the highest bidder. Shoving so called "green" products and technology down the public's throat when they know damn well most of it is high priced crap. A legion of lobbiests and lawyers stuffing cash into the pockets of the PHCC and the code review boards in order to get sub standard and sub code products accepted. Worse than all of that though is us. Because we are willing to sit back and see what happens rather than make a stand for a profession that is over 2000 years old and directly responsible for saving more lives than all the doctors and hospitals since the beginning of time. We could stop this trend anytime we want. We could take back the PHCC from the greedy hands it is in now. We could show up at code review and plumbing board meetings in mass. We could write our congress and write legislation that would keep the box stores form selling dangerous products to homeowners. For that matter we could all flat refuse to ever buy any plumbing products from or subcontract for the box stores. We could do a whole lot of things. What we will do is up to us.

Sorry, I'm real passionate and angry about where I see the plumbing profession heading. I'm not too enthusiastic about what I see and waving a bunch of shiney new "green" technology in front of my eyes is not quite enough to blind me.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

service guy said:


> I agree. Unfortunately, some states are full of morons. The plumbing standards here are pathetic compared to Long Island, NY where I learned the trade. I was appalled at the standards when I first moved here...cheap materials, shoddy workmanship....it is everywhere here. * The code isn't the problem here, its THE LACK OF ENFORCEMENT.* An amazing amount of unpermitted, illegal plumbing by unlicensed individuals goes on here every day. Until there is serious enforcement, I don't see it changing.


I live on LI, how long ago did you move because their are certainly no shortage of hacks here.

Hell I can name a certain electrician running a four man shop with no license.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> There will never be a universal code in this country, because large cities like New York, Chicago, etc. will never give away the revenue stream they get from being able to issue their own licenses and making contractors purchase their code book. That revenue for a large city is in the millions.


Which is exactly why we need it. To legally be licensed in the entire county here will probably run you 10k a year. You need to be licensed by about 20 different townships all charging a hundred bucks or so a year. Then half of them require you to have separate insurance polices in that town. Why? The almighty dollar.


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

Marlin said:


> I live on LI, how long ago did you move because their are certainly no shortage of hacks here.
> 
> Hell I can name a certain electrician running a four man shop with no license.


*You need me to look up the phone number of the local board for ya?*

*Seriously, NH has a real point.*

*Just like the pharmaceutical industry, tobacco industry and many others...our so called "leaders" have been bought.*


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Marlin said:


> I live on LI, how long ago did you move because their are certainly no shortage of hacks here.
> 
> Hell I can name a certain electrician running a four man shop with no license.


It was over 5 years ago, on the east end. I am just saying that when I moved here the contrast was stark. I was plumbing 5 million dollar houses in cast-iron in long island, and here I see polybutlyene waterlines and studor vents everywhere! Of course pb is illegal now but they sure put a dump-load of it in here when it was around.


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## TradeQualified (Aug 28, 2008)

*From The UK*

We are seen the same problem here in the UK "Proud Plumber" , not many young people are showing interest in the plumbing career, as you said this is good for us now, but what will happen down the road could turn into a downfall to whole industry.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

*Our Trades Future*

2 pts here brothers
1. If we stay American, the trade will prevail. There are still fathers out there teaching there children that motivation, determination and skill will lead to a secure future.
There also seem to be a growing number of H.O. who can't change a light bulb unless they take a DIY course, or go online.

My son is in the trade now because he to is proud of the fact that the harder & smarter he works, the better he will be able to provide for his family. 

As the world of the paper pushers crumble, the day may come sooner than we all know when a tradesmen is valued above others. What will the paper pusher barter with if the $ system fails? We are able to stand back at the end of a day and put our hands on and use what it is that we have built.

2. I joined this trade after "mastering" another and our leaders decided that it would be better for the country to produce thoughts, ideals and concepts rather than actual products. Both trades share many of the same techniques and skills. The fundementals of genuine craftsmenship are tought however, not from your employer. They should have been instilled from a parent or guardian. My parents tought me values. Impresse these at every opportunity on the future generation, and instead of wondering how quick they can get the big house, they will focus on working well each day, and letting the big home come to them. 

CAN I GET AN AMEN MY BROTHERS
sorry if a got a little to preachy there. 
I try not to worry about the future to much, I find it goes better if I do the best I can every day giving 100% then at least there aren't as many regrets.
Will


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

*Will....AMEN*

*You are correct, with all recent developements economically and ethically, I think the focus on making fast cash is going to shift.*

*Too many middlemen, salesmen and pencil pushers getting too much credibility & influence over authorities in this country have degraded our economy, our standards...and our trade.*


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

ASUPERTECH said:


> 2 pts here brothers
> 1. If we stay American, the trade will prevail. There are still fathers out there teaching there children that motivation, determination and skill will lead to a secure future.
> There also seem to be a growing number of H.O. who can't change a light bulb unless they take a DIY course, or go online.
> 
> ...


Amen


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## trick1 (Sep 18, 2008)

The green movement is a joke IMHO. Since we also handle hydronic and steam heating, I can't tell you how this green movement has affected us. Clients are no longer concerned with reliable operation as long as it's efficient. On the plumbing end, all I can see is inferior equipment being sold as high end, no support system for legitimate license holders (state inspection units) and a corrupt trade organization that I tried to stop without success. Now, we're seeing more and more separation of our license skillset with no chance for grandfathering. In, CT. I can no longer install vacuum systems for dental operatories without a special lisence. A special lisence to install schedule 40 PVC with solvent weld connections!!!?? 

Anyways, when I was a kid, this trade was the end all and be all, I couldn't wait to get into it. Don't get me wrong, I still love it and am so proud of it, but something is missing. There's no more sticking together, it's all top line numbers with these guys and undercutting the other guy (usually me!!) on a daily basis.

We need a REAL trade organization and plumbing professionals that stick together. We need to get back to the basics: Quality installs and service, and a profit at the end of the day. We need to break the steortype that only people that couldn't make it to college are in these types of fields. I actually turned down full scholarships to pursue my craft. It is a 8+ year program just to sit for a plumbing contractor's test...it's a doctorate!!

I know it's not going to be easy, but I've always felt that our profession requires a lot of knowledge..algebra, geometry, physics, chemistry and business management just to name a few. Some of us engineer our own systems, install them and commission them!!

Okay...off of the soapbox now


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

trick1 said:


> Okay...off of the soapbox now


*Jump back on...anytime.*


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

trick1 said:


> The green movement is a joke IMHO. Since we also handle hydronic and steam heating, I can't tell you how this green movement has affected us. Clients are no longer concerned with reliable operation as long as it's efficient. On the plumbing end, all I can see is inferior equipment being sold as high end, no support system for legitimate license holders (state inspection units) and a corrupt trade organization that I tried to stop without success. Now, we're seeing more and more separation of our license skillset with no chance for grandfathering. In, CT. I can no longer install vacuum systems for dental operatories without a special lisence. A special lisence to install schedule 40 PVC with solvent weld connections!!!??
> 
> Anyways, when I was a kid, this trade was the end all and be all, I couldn't wait to get into it. Don't get me wrong, I still love it and am so proud of it, but something is missing. There's no more sticking together, it's all top line numbers with these guys and undercutting the other guy (usually me!!) on a daily basis.
> 
> ...


 
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
I'm with you 100%. But what's next. How do we go about elevating our stature? Currently active in the PHCC. I know they are taking measures to elevate all the plumbers in the area, but as happens all to often, the beast seems to have gotten to big, fat and lazy to be effective. However they do have the money to weild. Maybe some national publicity? I don't really know, I just try to elevate each costomer as I meet them.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

service guy said:


> It was over 5 years ago, on the east end. I am just saying that when I moved here the contrast was stark. I was plumbing 5 million dollar houses in cast-iron in long island, and here I see polybutlyene waterlines and studor vents everywhere! Of course pb is illegal now but they sure put a dump-load of it in here when it was around.


Ummmmm, pb illegal? Unfortunatly not. Check da book.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

I just checked my North Carolina book and you're right Protech!!! Holy cow I can't believe that stuff is still allowed by code.


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech said:


> Ummmmm, pb illegal? Unfortunatly not. Check da book.


*Heck, I coulda told ya that...thats why I mentioned it.*

*It's still legal in my state...good luck finding a plumber willing to install it, or a supplier for that matter.*

*Hence the argument on Sharkbites.*


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

As bad as the pb era was, there seems to be a lot a misconceptions about it. The material isn't all that bad; most of the fittings and DR's were however.

I have seen many systems 20+ years old with not even one single leak. In many other industrialized countries it is still used extensively. I believe there is allot being installed in New Zealand to this day. Although it is a slightly different system, the pipe itself IS polybutylene.

My understanding of it’s downfall was that it was poorly engineered. The failures in the lawsuit were almost exclusively tied to the lack of chlorine resistance in the acetyl polymer fittings (this has made me wary of all plastic fittings) and aluminum crimp rings, not so much the pipe. Of the failures in the pipe that I have seen, all of them were on the thinner SDR pipe and not the stuff with the same wall thickness as cpvc and pex. This is not to say the thicker stuff with brass and polysulphone(sp?) fittings has never leaked, I have not personally observed it though.

I believe our industry is plagued by market hype, both positive and negative, without adequate independent third party analysis and testing.
The poorly designed green product push is one example. The abandonment of pb use would be another. 

Just my .02


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

*I have used Wirsbo expansion fittings on heat and potable.*
*That system seems scarefully inadequate.*
*I have a lower opinion of crimps.*
*I can't see how, or why, they don't just allow automotive radiator hose clamps...seriously, to me it seems like a more secure way to ensure a solid connection.*

*As ludicrous as hose clamps probably sound to the PEX guys, crimps sound just as ludicrous to me.*

*Then there's the port restriction of the fittings, I'd be more comfortable oversizing a system to ensure proper flow when in heavy use.*


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Something to think about. I have been told hose clamps cannot be used in aviation, crimps are used in there place.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech said:


> Something to think about. I have been told hose clamps cannot be used in aviation, crimps are used in there place.


The crimps used in Aviation are full sleeve hydraulic crimps, tested to two thousand PSI, similar to what is used on hydraulic hoses on machinery.

But hey, it sounded good for making your point.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Got one word for ya. Oetiker.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech said:


> Got one word for ya. Oetiker.


Not aviation approved for anything above two person craft.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *I can't see how, or why, they don't just allow automotive radiator hose clamps...seriously, to me it seems like a more secure way to ensure a solid connection.*


Heck they don't even use them in cars anymore!:laughing:


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## trick1 (Sep 18, 2008)

ASUPERTECH said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
> I'm with you 100%. But what's next. How do we go about elevating our stature? Currently active in the PHCC. I know they are taking measures to elevate all the plumbers in the area, but as happens all to often, the beast seems to have gotten to big, fat and lazy to be effective. However they do have the money to weild. Maybe some national publicity? I don't really know, I just try to elevate each costomer as I meet them.



The one way that I know of is to unite in an organization that is not biased or run from the "back room" by the lobbyists. I've seen some pretty sad and arrogant things in my time when it comes to these organizations. They actually hurt the small business owners. 

A true organization run by plumbing journeymen and contractors, responding to the needs of plumbing professionals is what is desperately needed. Stop appointing these lobbyists and state bigwigs, that have no clue about our day to day operations and our opinions, into the trade organizations just so that they can get their "green" bills passed without any opposition.

This trade has given me everything....a life, a home, a family, a passion like no other to strive for perfection. It makes me sad to see it all going by the wayside. 

Forget about this green [email protected]@. Let's sell reliability, comfort and most importantly, SAFETY. Let's all be better troubleshooters and technicians, not just parts changers. Lets stop the commision based pay madness that has left a black eye on this industry because of a few bad eggs There was a time when people would hold doors open for plumbers.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

Polybutylene is legal - they just DON'T MAKE IT anymore. I plumbed my own house in it, which I have pointed out every time this discussion comes up, and am completely happy with it. I have never had a failure or even a drip. It's been in since '92, some of it earlier than that.

Note: we don't _appoint_ lobbyists. They are hired by private industry to buy the government, and our government is well bought and sold. There are about 90,000 of these farging bastiches in the area surrounding D.C. and they live very well. One day, a politician, the next day, a lobbyist. Maybe the next day a politician again. Want a campaign contribution? Vote the way we like and you'll be well-treated and when you leave government, there'll be a nice, cushy job waiting for you. Tell your friends.


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

trick1 said:


> The one way that I know of is to unite in an organization that is not biased or run from the "back room" by the lobbyists. I've seen some pretty sad and arrogant things in my time when it comes to these organizations. They actually hurt the small business owners.
> 
> *A true organization run by plumbing journeymen and contractors, responding to the needs of plumbing professionals is what is desperately needed.* Stop appointing these lobbyists and state bigwigs, that have no clue about our day to day operations and our opinions, into the trade organizations just so that they can get their "green" bills passed without any opposition.
> 
> ...


*In a nutshell, thats the answer right there.*


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

well said herk:thumbsup:


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *I have used Wirsbo expansion fittings on heat and potable.*
> *That system seems scarefully inadequate.*
> *I have a lower opinion of crimps.*
> *I can't see how, or why, they don't just allow automotive radiator hose clamps...seriously, to me it seems like a more secure way to ensure a solid connection.*
> ...


I can answer one question because I raised the very question to a factory rep. once. Hose clamps can tend to be over torqued and it can cause problems. As to what problems he could not explain in english. It would also be very expensive to use hose clamps. A crimping tool properly adjusted will deliver consistancy.

Generally we in pex/poly land see hose clamps as a sure sign Craigs List has been used prior to our arrival.

I do agree with many of your arguements, but we have no choice in our area as to what systems to use. Copper does not survive in many areas of FL. We are very limited to pex/cpvc.


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## daddyplumber101 (Oct 1, 2008)

im new here but been around plumbing a few years and it the same in any state. If you get taught from a lousy plumber you become a lousy plumber ... and the harder license laws and enforcement codes there are in the state the better for a real plumber...financial especially id rather hire a greenhorn than someone doing plumbing for 20 years the wrong way..cant change em....anyways thats my opinion...like it or not


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## daddyplumber101 (Oct 1, 2008)

i love pex/poly alot cleaner and easier to repair, doesnt freeze as easily and alot less expensive....copper is more resistent to abuse but a small price to give up in my opinion and i hated the stuff when it was introduced but after the last 2 years of using like it....just has to be installed properly like anything else......


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## daddyplumber101 (Oct 1, 2008)

In Crimpstyle Systems Oversizing Is Better Even On Moderate Resisdential Use Memphis Codes Will Allow Only Wirsbo But Across The Line In Mississippi They Allow The Crimp Style So I Use Both And With Over Sizing Your Showers And Tubs And Washing Machines They Work The Same But The Crimps Tyle Is A Whole Lot Easier To Install With Same Effect Of Performance


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

daddyplumber101 said:


> i love pex/poly alot cleaner and easier to repair, doesnt freeze as easily and alot less expensive....copper is more resistent to abuse but a small price to give up in my opinion and i hated the stuff when it was introduced but after the last 2 years of using like it....just has to be installed properly like anything else......


Doesn't freeze as easily? Explain.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Marlin said:


> Doesn't freeze as easily? Explain.


It magicly changes the freezing point of water?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Whadda bunch of stone crushers!:laughing:
Picking on the newbie!

I believe this may be what he is referring to...
http://www.solar2006.org/presentations/tech_sessions/t37-a234.pdf

Maybe... I think.... Possibly...


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> It magicly changes the freezing point of water?


:laughing:


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Maybe he meant that it will freeze but not rupture...


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Yup, you just put the pipe thawing machine on it and you're good to go. Wait a second...


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

Marlin said:


> Yup, you just put the pipe thawing machine on it and you're good to go. Wait a second...


:laughing:


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Marlin said:


> Yup, you just put the pipe thawing machine on it and you're good to go. Wait a second...


The hair dryer? :laughing:


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Whadda bunch of stone crushers!:laughing:
> Picking on the newbie!
> 
> I believe this may be what he is referring to...
> ...


*Geesh...gotta take all the fun out, dontcha?*

*They realize what he meant.*
*As far as I'm concerned, thats the ONLY real selling feature of PEX, it won't burst.*


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *Geesh...gotta take all the fun out, dontcha?*
> 
> *They realize what he meant.*
> *As far as I'm concerned, thats the ONLY real selling feature of PEX, it won't burst.*


And its color coded:laughing:


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

trick1 said:


> The one way that I know of is to unite in an organization that is not biased or run from the "back room" by the lobbyists. I've seen some pretty sad and arrogant things in my time when it comes to these organizations. They actually hurt the small business owners.
> 
> A true organization run by plumbing journeymen and contractors, responding to the needs of plumbing professionals is what is desperately needed. Stop appointing these lobbyists and state bigwigs, that have no clue about our day to day operations and our opinions, into the trade organizations just so that they can get their "green" bills passed without any opposition.
> 
> This trade has given me everything....a life, a home, a family, a passion like no other to strive for perfection. It makes me sad to see it all going by the wayside.


The mechanism is already there and available to any of us working under either the Uniform or the International Codes. Each member is a voting member and can propose code changes, vote for code changes or vote against code changes. How many here belong to and support their code organizations?

Mark


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

This is what I use for thawing PEX...










:laughing:


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *Geesh...gotta take all the fun out, dontcha?*
> 
> *They realize what he meant.*
> *As far as I'm concerned, thats the ONLY real selling feature of PEX, it won't burst.*


It can burst. Wirsbo made that clear years ago.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Yes but it is a lot less likely to do so.
That link I posted above is a freez thaw study on PEX that outlines their findings on the circumstances of PEX bursting from freezing.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I've seen it burst. Not pretty.


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I've seen it burst. Not pretty.



I have seen a lot more copper burst than PEX. And it ain't pretty either.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

22rifle said:


> I have seen a lot more copper burst than PEX. And it ain't pretty either.


I've seen a lot more copper burst then PB or galvanized. That doesn't make them better products. A few reasons you will see a lot more copper bursting then pex:
Their are a lot more homes plumed in copper then in pex.
Most homes plumbed in pex are newer with more thought given to insulation and keeping water lines off outside walls.
When did pex really begin to be used for water lines here? Five maybe ten years ago at best? You can't compare new pex to 50 year old copper. 50 years down the road that pex is going to be more suseptable to breaking just like copper is when it ages.

You probably do stand a better chance against pipes bursting with pex. It isn't the cure all for freezing that some people make it out to be though.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

When water freezes in a pipe it can generate a pressure in the range of 40,000 PSI If whatever material cannot expand and absorb that pressure it will burst.

Heck in Yosemite Park water freezing and thawing Caused a 31,500-ton piece of a cliff to fall 2,200 feet into the valey below...
Yeeeeee Haaaaa!

I love it when CPVC freezes... It doesn't do well at all!


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