# Is HD A Real Supply House?



## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

aundraew said:


> I use the home depot app a lot especially when it's past 5pm when the suppliers are closed. I like the fact that they have a store locator option.


If its at H.D, it should be stocked on your truck. Especially for weekends and evenings.
No reason to hit up box stores unless its a true emergency and don't have enough parts.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Qball415 said:


> If its at H.D, it should be stocked on your truck. Especially for weekends and evenings.
> No reason to hit up box stores unless its a true emergency and don't have enough parts.


Menards stock waaay much better than HD and bLowes. You cann grab a pizza there too.


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Agreed. I would rather if I had to go to the small mom and pop type hardware stores. We have Ace and True Value here, and they always have free popcorn.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Qball415 said:


> Agreed. I would rather if I had to go to the small mom and pop type hardware stores. We have Ace and True Value here, and they always have free popcorn.


 

the free popcorn is next to the $23 3"PVC 90 :laughing:


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

Qball, i have a dislike for big box as well, however they have done no other than the american way. The manufactures allowed them, i still install delta, kohler, and moen. They can pull an order fasger ag my jd and have it ready faster than my fergies. The hd ordr is pulled and paid for ready for pick up. 2 faucets the other day h.d. 20 min.. fergies, 3 toilets yesterdy 2 calls over a 5 to 6 hour period still not ready. When i get there 1 guy at counter,out side saleman on phone(acceptable thats what he does and he ispretty good), appliance guy texting on his phone. He says yeah pull out back. Then procedes to pull my seats, has to unlock the over seas container they keep toilets in, and then pull the toilets i wanted.

I don,t owe them anything if they want to be in the game they need to work for it. I DO!!! I will b having a chat with the manager mon.

OH YEAH!!! I got 30 min away to the job and one of the seats was biscuit to go with the three white toilets i was setting behind schedule( my fault).

Sorry for the getting off subject sometimes i get carried away on my smart phone. Lol.lol.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

beachplumber said:


> Qball, i have a dislike for big box as well, however they have done no other than the american way. The manufactures allowed them, i still install delta, kohler, and moen. They can pull an order fasger ag my jd and have it ready faster than my fergies. The hd ordr is pulled and paid for ready for pick up. 2 faucets the other day h.d. 20 min.. fergies, 3 toilets yesterdy 2 calls over a 5 to 6 hour period still not ready. When i get there 1 guy at counter,out side saleman on phone(acceptable thats what he does and he ispretty good), appliance guy texting on his phone. He says yeah pull out back. Then procedes to pull my seats, has to unlock the over seas container they keep toilets in, and then pull the toilets i wanted.
> 
> I don,t owe them anything if they want to be in the game they need to work for it. I DO!!! I will b having a chat with the manager mon.
> 
> ...


You do realize that the moen, delta etc from big box stores are not the same as the proffessional grade faucets from a reputable supplier? The model #'s will be close usually the pro stuff has an extra number or letter. The pro stuff has more brass usually!


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

U do realize that they there is no disclaimer or sign at big box store stating such. I would venture u would not get any of the brands to put that in a statement for u. I know they are not the same, but the consumer does not. If the manufacturer gave a $hit about their integrity they wouldn,t compromise there name by compromising there product. Hd wouldn,t sell name brand for what we can buy it for if they didn,t offer them a product to sell at a lower price. The big box stores r doing what retailers do. The supply houses would sell the same crap if plumbers wouldn,t throw a fit. Big box doesn,t care about plumbers because there are many more consumers than plumbers.

My supply houses need to get off ther @ss o i will amazon it with free two day shipping, usualy at a cheaper price.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

beachplumber said:


> U do realize that they there is no disclaimer or sign at big box store stating such. I would venture u would not get any of the brands to put that in a statement for u. I know they are not the same, but the consumer does not. If the manufacturer gave a $hit about their integrity they wouldn,t compromise there name by compromising there product. Hd wouldn,t sell name brand for what we can buy it for if they didn,t offer them a product to sell at a lower price. The big box stores r doing what retailers do. The supply houses would sell the same crap if plumbers wouldn,t throw a fit. Big box doesn,t care about plumbers because there are many more consumers than plumbers.
> 
> My supply houses need to get off ther @ss o i will amazon it with free two day shipping, usualy at a cheaper price.


You can install them if you want my friend, I will not, if they want junk they can buy it for me to install that way we are not responsible for the warranty!


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

The customr picked oit the DELTA model. It fit into her fixture allowance.88.00 through h.d.. 133.00 thru fergie. It is a h.d. only model unless ordered direct from DELTA ( bettinv ifs gonna b a h.d. quality product wherever i get it). Fergie was two weeks or more out or pay freight. The product is nof warrantied because it is not "approved". DELTA is the problem here not h.d.. the delta rep will still come to your supplier and play we are here for u and want your feed back.BS. 

MY GRIPE WAS WITH CUSTOMER SERVICE NOT PRODUCT.

any further discussion shoulx b taken to a new thread.
Sorry for derail


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Qball415 said:


> If its at H.D, it should be stocked on your truck. Especially for weekends and evenings.
> No reason to hit up box stores unless its a true emergency and don't have enough parts.


Have you been on the fittings, pipe, and parts aisle of a big box lately? I think I'm going to need a much bigger truck.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

deerslayer said:


> You do realize that the moen, delta etc from big box stores are not the same as the proffessional grade faucets from a reputable supplier? The model #'s will be close usually the pro stuff has an extra number or letter. The pro stuff has more brass usually!


I don't know about Moen since I mainly install Delta. THe only Delta difference is the box store offering is usually with an ABS pop-up rather than brass on the lav faucets. All the tub/shower and kitchen faucets are the same.

The main part number differences for Delta or Kohler is on packages designed for retail only.

For instance, at HD you can buy several Kohler or American Standard model toilets with the tank, bowl, seat, wax ring, and closet bolts all in one box. That model number is not the same as the model numbers in the traditional supply house but the product is identical. Delta sells complete tub/shower faucets at the box stores with the valve and trim together. That is not an option at the wholesale supplier. 

With the exception of pop-up assemblies, the products are identical. Delta only makes one series of valves and trims. Kohler only makes one Cimarron toilet. They just get prettier (and usually better) packaging at the box store.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> I don't know about Moen since I mainly install Delta. THe only Delta difference is the box store offering is usually with an ABS pop-up rather than brass on the lav faucets. All the tub/shower and kitchen faucets are the same.
> 
> The main part number differences for Delta or Kohler is on packages designed for retail only.
> 
> ...


 
I haven't seen any differences in the shower valve sets other than packaging. Lav faucets the abs popups and typically the handles are cheesier sometimes even the nuts that hold it down are potmetal vs brass depending on faucet (I usually favor delta as well). Kitchen faucets seem to be getting cheaper no matter where I buy them. Also the big box Delta stuf comes with delrin cartridges in 2 handle vs brass cartridges in the pro stuff.

As far as the Cimarron, AS champion etc I can't find a difference other than packaging and price. My AS champion dealer (winnelson) showed me his cost and he can't buy them for what Home Depot is selling them for!


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

deerslayer said:


> I haven't seen any differences in the shower valve sets other than packaging. Lav faucets the abs popups and typically the handles are cheesier sometimes even the nuts that hold it down are potmetal vs brass depending on faucet (I usually favor delta as well). Kitchen faucets seem to be getting cheaper no matter where I buy them. Also the big box Delta stuf comes with delrin cartridges in 2 handle vs brass cartridges in the pro stuff.
> 
> As far as the Cimarron, AS champion etc I can't find a difference other than packaging and price. My AS champion dealer (winnelson) showed me his cost and he can't buy them for what Home Depot is selling them for!


Sometimes it's only name differences.. Exclusive hd crap . I hate home depot but find myself going there when supply is not open or doesn't have a part. I just hate supporting a hack store. 

I think most of us support it in some way whether we want to or not. 

But.., in the end they are cheaper on fixtures than any supply house around these parts, and that is all made possible by our board not enforcing stricter laws on who can purchase plumbing supplies. Crap!!!!


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

beachplumber said:


> U do realize that they there is no disclaimer or sign at big box store stating such. I would venture u would not get any of the brands to put that in a statement for u. I know they are not the same, but the consumer does not. If the manufacturer gave a $hit about their integrity they wouldn,t compromise there name by compromising there product. Hd wouldn,t sell name brand for what we can buy it for if they didn,t offer them a product to sell at a lower price. The big box stores r doing what retailers do. The supply houses would sell the same crap if plumbers wouldn,t throw a fit. Big box doesn,t care about plumbers because there are many more consumers than plumbers.
> 
> My supply houses need to get off ther @ss o i will amazon it with free two day shipping, usualy at a cheaper price.


 
It takes two to tango. I have no doubt that Home Depot and Lowes have deals that they propose to different manufacturers. They are the Walmart of home improvement, you know that's true. I am certain they will approach a few manufacturers just as a property management company would approach you.

"We have XX amount of work for you (sales) but we'll need a deal. Can you give us an hourly rate (fixtures) that's 25% less than what you give everybody else?"

In that case, the management company and the plumber are to blame. 

HD and Lowes are a mafia that pushes up on manufacturers with a "deal they can't refuse". The lure of an easy buck is too great for most to turn down so it perpetuates itself into this mess we have now. 







Paul


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

As far as the differences between products, I've found many. There's the obvious plastic vs. brass pop-ups that everybody sees. I've seen shower valves (mostly Moen) that only come with fip valve bodies. I've also seen a lot of "chrome" plastic trim kits on these valves vs. the metal kits that I get at my supply house. I haven't really seen a difference on the kitchen faucets yet.

I was told by a guy at my Ferguson that the porcelain is the same but is a B grade rather than the A that the supply houses get. They aren't seconds but if they have slight defects of blemishes, yet still pass the QC inspections, they go to the box stores. The cream of the crop goes to the supply houses. We were talking about Kohler Cimarrons specifically but if this is true, I'm sure it's the same across the board. This could have been a load of BS that the rep fed to somebody after they questioned him but it made some sense to me so who knows. 








Paul


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

rocksteady said:


> As far as the differences between products, I've found many. There's the obvious plastic vs. brass pop-ups that everybody sees. I've seen shower valves (mostly Moen) that only come with fip valve bodies. I've also seen a lot of "chrome" plastic trim kits on these valves vs. the metal kits that I get at my supply house. I haven't really seen a difference on the kitchen faucets yet.
> 
> I was told by a guy at my Ferguson that the porcelain is the same but is a B grade rather than the A that the supply houses get. They aren't seconds but if they have slight defects of blemishes, yet still pass the QC inspections, they go to the box stores. The cream of the crop goes to the supply houses. We were talking about Kohler Cimarrons specifically but if this is true, I'm sure it's the same across the board. This could have been a load of BS that the rep fed to somebody after they questioned him but it made some sense to me so who knows.
> 
> Paul


i was told the same.
I don,t know much about moen,but the branbury bn trim i installed yestrdy had a plastic trim plate. Hd bought


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## Nevada Plumber (Jan 3, 2009)

The Moen shower trims I buy at my supply house have all been a plastic trim instead of the usual metal trim for the last few months.

Faucets are just getting cheaper all across the board.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Nevada Plumber said:


> The Moen shower trims I buy at my supply house have all been a plastic trim instead of the usual metal trim for the last few months.
> 
> Faucets are just getting cheaper all across the board.


Supply houses are guilty of chasing the lowest number, just like the consumer. 

As for reps., I don't believe a word they say. Most are salesman looking to hawk a product line. Plumbers DO NOT count and they DO NOT care about plumbers. H.O.'s and big national builders is where they make their money.

We should smile knowing they all sold the plumber down the sewer short term, but more than made up for it by looking out for us long term. None of it lasts anymore. First service call usually within the first two years.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Beware of the loss lead strategy......Lowes boasted a 35% profit a while back.....supply houses dont get that......if you arent careful you pay more but for example with HD...1220 Moen brass OEM cartridge...$8.95. Been that way for 2 years. Check the pvc dwv fittings and see if one isnt much lower......they are just smarter business people...

and that stupid Glacier Bay toilet flushes well.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> Have you been on the fittings, pipe, and parts aisle of a big box lately? I think I'm going to need a much bigger truck.


Yesterday I needed a 3" riser clamp. Both supply houses didn't carry one, Grainger is on the other side of town, in stock at Lowes. Dunbar used to write about how he doesn't stock fixtures, it's all customer supplied. I used to think he was crazy but now believe he was ahead of his time. Im getting away from the brass is heavier better concept. I've never seen corroded plastic. Also, installing a part to last forever doesn't seem to make sense from a business perspective. Maybe we as plumbers are holding on to outdated business practices? Sorry for the thread drift.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

The big problem with big box is that they sell installs.....


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

gear junkie said:


> Yesterday I needed a 3" riser clamp. Both supply houses didn't carry one, Grainger is on the other side of town, in stock at Lowes. Dunbar used to write about how he doesn't stock fixtures, it's all customer supplied. I used to think he was crazy but now believe he was ahead of his time. Im getting away from the brass is heavier better concept. I've never seen corroded plastic. Also, installing a part to last forever doesn't seem to make sense from a business perspective. Maybe we as plumbers are holding on to outdated business practices? Sorry for the thread drift.


 

To add to this: 


Saturday, I wanted to buy "just in case" for a rework for a lavatory drain.


Home Depot carried the code approved mission couplings, cheaper than what I've been paying for at the supply house.

They "also" started selling the true braided stainless steel supply lines. They still have the braided polymer but those still worked well for longevity.

When I buy a tub/shower faucet from Delta, for less than a $100 ($94 out the door) for a tub/shower faucet with not one but 2 handles, a choice for the customer.

You get the same cheap plastic chrome tub spout when you buy that faucet from a supply house. Those chrome brass spouts are a memory at this point.


Customers from a toilet and faucet perspective, even a water heater... the line of credit with zero financing drives a lot of dollars into those stores.

Plus, you can buy far more than just plumbing related issues... you can buy cabinets, lighting, and electrical, home & garden.

The amount of inventory that these stores move in their plumbing aisles... $50-$150,000.00 in one weekend.


I work when people need plumbing work done, NOT when the stroke of 4:30pm hits and you call to get parts at a supply house and the phones are turned off. 

No more is the value to the plumber, the one who creates the reason why supply houses exist. 

They'll sell materials to the homeowner just as fast if not faster because the profit margin is higher. 


Just yesterday: 


I needed a compiled list of plumbing materials, 6" SCH40 PVC. I was going down the list, guy on the phone interrupted me and said "I don't have the 6" to 6" clay to pvc ferncos." 

That pushed me to another company (not home depot) but a company I knew would have it. But it cost plenty to the property owner I sent to fetch parts while I continued working. *I promise he payed for the dust collection on that material list.*


All I hear from supply houses is "can't pay overtime" when I ask if they'll stick around to make a $100-$600 sale, possibly a water heater sale. 

Every time, they'll say no. 


The last few times I bought a 6 in 1 screwdriver at a supply house? 

$5.97
$6.99
$7.49


Home Depot on Saturday: $2.87


I'd rather pay the corporate model and flirt with the half attractive women that show cleavage if you keep dropping items on the floor than any half baked/half shaven attitude of a guy at the supply house that has a bad day every day and "I've been doing this for 20+ years and I'm tired of helping people" attitude. 


Buy that same faucet above... you'll spend $159.00 when you figure the separation of valve from trim kit, a separate lever handle. 


Home Depot has the supply house beat by a marathon mile and their pipe IS indoors not getting baked by the sun's UV rays like half the supply houses here have... yeah. We all know what happens to that pipe when it's double aged before it's installed. 


I got no love for a supply house when you don't conform to the standard. Your dollars got lost by me when you played your overtime game. 




My Prediction: 


The growth of big box stores will eventually force plumbing supply houses to mesh together, conform and become a bigger playing card in the big picture as the supply houses will continue to get choked down from the lack of growth.

The fergusons in my area finally left that large building... can't do business when you only have 10-15 trucks buying material from you a day. That's surviving, not making money.


Age of inventory is becoming an issue for some products at supply houses.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

stillaround said:


> The big problem with big box is that they sell installs.....


 

And as far as I know, they have to employ a licensed plumbing company to do so. 


They don't make much, but that's their learning experience to find out.


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

You can't get the supply houses to open up for you after hours ? I do it all the time in the DFW area ferguson, morrison's or moore.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

None of the home centers around here stock soil pipe fittings or a full selection of copper DWV fittings, and the prices they charge for the copper DWV fittings they do stock will cost you three times what you will pay at the supply house, and they probably only have two of each fitting to boot. Try finding a victaulic fitting at a home center, or a flanged fitting for ductile iron mains, supply house's aren't going anywhere anytime soon, at least not around here.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

playme1979 said:


> You can't get the supply houses to open up for you after hours ? I do it all the time in the DFW area ferguson, morrison's or moore.


 
I'm speaking from my general area from a residential service plumbing point of view only.




Killertoiletspider said:


> None of the home centers around here stock soil pipe fittings or a full selection of copper DWV fittings, and the prices they charge for the copper DWV fittings they do stock will cost you three times what you will pay at the supply house, and they probably only have two of each fitting to boot. Try finding a victaulic fitting at a home center, or a flanged fitting for ductile iron mains, supply house's aren't going anywhere anytime soon, at least not around here.


 
Again, residential plumbing service point of view. Everyone comes home to a residential structure, mostly single house dwelling.

That's my game, not so much the commercial side of plumbing. 

I still think 'eventually' they are going to have to combine or a bigger card in the playing game is going to buy them up and become profitable through volume and location.

These plumbing supply houses weren't designed to just 'get by' in a down economy. Manpower and slim profit margins are destroyers to the bigger picture. More like, is it worth it to continue on not knowing the future.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I'm speaking from my general area from a residential service plumbing point of view only.
> 
> Again, residential plumbing service point of view. Everyone comes home to a residential structure, mostly single house dwelling.
> 
> ...


Its pretty obvisous(sp) that you havnt been to Menard's mega store..


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

rjbphd said:


> Its pretty obvisous(sp) that you havnt been to Menard's mega store..


 

There's one about 22 miles from my shop which pretty much makes it non-existent. 

If something isn't within 7 miles I don't bother.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> I don't know about Moen since I mainly install Delta. THe only Delta difference is the box store offering is usually with an ABS pop-up rather than brass on the lav faucets. All the tub/shower and kitchen faucets are the same.
> 
> The main part number differences for Delta or Kohler is on packages designed for retail only.
> 
> ...



From what I understand all the brass pop-ups are going away. My supply guy is saying that the lead free issue is killing all the brass in any plumbing part. He has warned that the Delta stuff is going to be the first.


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

Doesn,t the lead refer to water distributio?


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