# Do you really consider drain cleaning and snaking Plumbing?



## swedishcharm21

Just like the title said.

Do you consider drain cleaning or snaking actual plumbing?

I totally respect drain cleaners or rooters. But I do not consider them plumbers and I do not consider drain cleaning "Plumbing". 

Some of my colleagues refer to them as "snake boys" or wanna be plumbers. 

Thoughts??


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## user2090

Yes, its on the fringe of what plumbing is by my definition, but I consider it to be under the scope of what a Plumbing Service company should do.


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## Flyguy199

Yes, it falls under the scope of what a plumber does in my opinion.


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## ChrisConnor

No, I don't consider it plumbing, nor do I consider them plumbers, but I also don't think they are necessarily "wanna be" plumbers. Some of them are content in their field. 

One thing I've found, you can take a drain cleaner and make a good plumber out of him, but you can't always teach a plumber drain cleaning. Some plumbers don't do drain cleaning very well.


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## plbgbiz

It most certainly is! Even though some do it without credentials, if it happens inside a pipe then it should be done by a licensed Professional Plumber.

Without knowledge and understanding of plumbing systems a "snake-boy" as you put it, is endangering someone's health and creating work for the rest of us.


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## ChrisConnor

plbgbiz said:


> creating work for the rest of us.



Shhhh!!!!!:laughing:


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## GREENPLUM

Plumbers must have a license before they start a legit biz.

Drain Cleaners dont need a license, they can start a legit biz without one.

Plumbers should also make more money...


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## drtyhands

for the sake of this thread.More than half the guys I know call themselves "plumbers" I disagree.I hand'em a set of plans and ask them to draw me an ISO on there interpretation of a proper waste system for the project...Fail.

So back to drain cleaning.Are we talking about a guy who has years designing systems and running crews installing them who is now doing drain cleaning as part of his service repertoire?

I certainly hope someone thinks before dissrespecting another in a supply house.The other might just have to drop the mouth's pants and show the world a little unkown reality.


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## ToUtahNow

Drain cleaning is maintenance of plumbing not plumbing. Some drain cleaners are plumbers, some are not.

Mark


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## plbgbiz

GREENPLUM said:


> ...Drain Cleaners dont need a license, they can start a legit biz without one....


Not in Oklahoma. And even if they could, if the drain cleaning task involves pulling a toilet, removing or replacing a p-trap, cutting into the building sewer, or removing a T&P discharge pipe to access a drain, they would be in violation of licensing laws in many states.

That's not to say it is always enforced, but it is always illegal. But nowadays being illegal is a good thing. Just ask your friendly neighborhood alien.


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## SewerRatz

In Chicago, Plumbers are not allowed to do drain cleaning or install sewer systems unless they are a holder of a drain layers license. You do not need to be a plumber to hold a drain layers license though. 

My father and grandfather have held a drain layers license for over 50+ years, and I can tell you they can clean and maintain, as well as properly lay a sanitary sewer 100 times better than most plumbers. I am a licensed plumber as well as a drain layer. I started cleaning drains at the age of 12 years old and when I got back from the Army I apprenticed and got my plumbing license.

I was told long ago by many long term plumbers you can take a good sewer and drain cleaner and make him into a great plumber. but you can take a great plumber that never did sewer and drains, and he will always be a poor sewer and drain guy.

So to answer your question, a guy that does not hold a plumbing license and cleans drains for a living, is not a plumber. Though he does do a respected , and needed job.


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## ChrisConnor

As long as it's done through a cleanout or vent, I don't see there need for a plumbing license, but for the customer, I think they do themselves a disservice going with a non plumbing licensed drain service. Just about all the drain guys I've ever seen have fluidmasters, flush valves and supply connectors on their trucks.


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## MSilver

HTML:


I was told long ago by many long term plumbers you can take a good sewer and drain cleaner and make him into a great plumber. but you can take a great plumber that never did sewer and drains, and he will always be a poor sewer and drain guy.

Very true!!! at least 2 of our guys are real good plumbers but they suck as drain cleaners.

So, I think both trades are equally important and deserve all my respect...

I'm sorry but what I just can't stand are "handyman-plumber-wanna-be" or "General contractors-know-it-all" and of course the classic "I used to be a plumber-home owner"


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## Mississippiplum

MSilver said:


> I'm sorry but what I just can't stand are "handyman-plumber-wanna-be" or "General contractors-know-it-all" and of course the classic "I used to be a plumber-home owner"


I agree, the gc's and handyman are the worst.


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## Will

Drain Cleaning is Plumbing. So is repairing faucets, rebuilding valves, repairing water heaters, etc.


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## ToUtahNow

No disrespect to drain cleaners but to own a plumbing business most areas require 8-years of trade experience and the ability to pass a test. To own a drain cleaning business some go out and buy a pickup truck, a couple of machines and find a forum like this. That is not to say they can not learn to be the best in the business at cleaning drains but it does mean they are not a plumber. The best thing that could happen to real drain cleaners would be for them to be required to have trade experience and testing before receiving a required licence. It would sure weed out a lot of guys who don't know what they are doing.

Mark


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## rocksteady

To all those who have a lesser view of drain cleaners, do you think less of that work if it's done by a licensed plumber? Is that work beneath you as a Journeyman or Master plumber? Is it just the licensing that irks you? What about a plumber who does not have his own license? Is he above or below a legit drain cleaning operation in the food chain? I'm not really trying to stir the pot. Maybe just a little. 










Paul


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## ToUtahNow

rocksteady said:


> To all those who have a lesser view of drain cleaners, do you think less of that work if it's done by a licensed plumber? Is that work beneath you as a Journeyman or Master plumber? Is it just the licensing that irks you? What about a plumber who does not have his own license? Is he above or below a legit drain cleaning operation in the food chain? I'm not really trying to stir the pot. Maybe just a little.
> 
> Paul


I don't think being a drain cleaner when it comes to cleaning drains makes much of a difference compared to a plumber. That is just a small part of what a plumber should be qualified to do. I do feel it should be more like Ron has in Chicago. There are a lot of service jobs which do not require licenses. I happen to believe drain cleaning should not be one of them.

Mark


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## plbgbiz

ToUtahNow said:


> I don't think being a drain cleaner when it comes to cleaning drains makes much of a difference compared to a plumber. That is just a small part of what a plumber should be qualified to do. I do feel it should be more like Ron has in Chicago. There are a lot of service jobs which do not require licenses. I happen to believe drain cleaning should not be one of them.
> 
> Mark


None of us are above drain cleaning tasks. I don't mind getting in the worst of the worst ditches. 

I believe drain maintenance to be a privilege that should be reserved for "LICENSED" Professional Plumbers or registered Apprentices under the direct supervision of a Professional Plumber.


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## ChrisConnor

rocksteady said:


> To all those who have a lesser view of drain cleaners, do you think less of that work if it's done by a licensed plumber? Is that work beneath you as a Journeyman or Master plumber? Is it just the licensing that irks you? What about a plumber who does not have his own license? Is he above or below a legit drain cleaning operation in the food chain? I'm not really trying to stir the pot. Maybe just a little.


I've heard many a plumber say "I don't do drains", but these are new construction prima donnas that were applying for jobs in service when the housing market was down. I've always replied, "you don't do drains, then you don't work here, we do drains and sometimes there are a lot of them". At that point the interview is over.

Getting wrapped up in a 3/4" cable has ended thoughts of drain cleaning for many plumbers.


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## rocksteady

I guess what I'm actually asking is this. Is it the work itself or the fact that many areas allow the work to be done with no license? If it's the lack of licensing then how does a legal drain cleaner stack up to a legal (within their state's laws) unlicensed plumber working under another's license? If it's all about the license, is one higher on the status than another? 

My thoughts are that if a task is part of the design, creation, installation, alteration or maintenance of a plumbing system, a license should be required. Drain cleaning falls into this category. I know some plumbing tasks are dirtier or less technical than others but I consider them all important in being a well rounded plumber.

Here in Ca. we don't have too many drain cleaning companies because we have so many unlicensed "plumbers" running around. They do poor plumbing as well as drain cleaning. :thumbup: 






Paul


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## plbgbiz

ChrisConnor said:


> ...Getting wrapped up in a 3/4" cable has ended thoughts of drain cleaning for many plumbers.


Yep. :thumbsup:

There are many facets to our trade. The licensing is not that discriminating. Not every Licensed Plumbing Professional can do what I do but you probably should let me do your ground job. :laughing:


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## Redwood

If your company is a service plumbing company and cleaning drains is beneath you...

You are leaving better than half the money on the table untouched... :whistling2:


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## ToUtahNow

rocksteady said:


> I guess what I'm actually asking is this. Is it the work itself or the fact that many areas allow the work to be done with no license? If it's the lack of licensing then how does a legal drain cleaner stack up to a legal (within their state's laws) unlicensed plumber working under another's license? If it's all about the license, is one higher on the status than another?
> 
> My thoughts are that if a task is part of the design, creation, installation, alteration or maintenance of a plumbing system, a license should be required. Drain cleaning falls into this category. I know some plumbing tasks are dirtier or less technical than others but I consider them all important in being a well rounded plumber.
> 
> Here in Ca. we don't have too many drain cleaning companies because we have so many unlicensed "plumbers" running around. They do poor plumbing as well as drain cleaning. :thumbup:
> 
> Paul



In Southern California and Nevada there are a ton of Drain Cleaning Companies. To me a plumber who is working under the supervision of a plumbing contractor is superior to a drain cleaner who has no licencing. However, I see no difference between an unlicensed plumber or a drain cleaner who are on their own and working in plumbing systems. 


Mark


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## nhmaster3015

Most of the time, snaking drains is not what I consider plumbing but every so often situations arise where a knowledge of plumbing systems comes in handy. We don't require a license here to rod drains and I don't think that I favor having to have one either. I think the problems happen when the guy rodding breaks the trap or the clean out and now the job has turned into plumbing. As a side note, both of my drain guys are licensed and do service work also


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## easttexasplumb

Cleaning drains most of the time is quick easy money. The times that drain cleaning is not quick and easy it is good money. Here in Texas you must work under a master plumber, no matter what kind of plumbing work you are doing. So, in TX drain cleaning is a plumbers job, some plumbers have never touched a drain machine, and some can't even read blue prints. We all have our strenghts and weakness, the important thing is to know them.


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## GREENPLUM

might as well put janitors in here too , they clean toilets, urinals, and other plumbing fixtures


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## nhmaster3015

Don't forget the maid :laughing:


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## plbgbiz

nhmaster3015 said:


> Most of the time, snaking drains is not what I consider plumbing but every so often situations arise where a knowledge of plumbing systems comes in handy....


Exactly NH. It's not just about knowing what to do for the blockage. It is also very much about what NOT to do. Better to train a Plumber to maintain drains than to leave the system at the mercy of the untrained.

So in the areas where trucks operate "legally" without a plumbing license to clean drains...do they carry extra p-traps, Ferncos, or pipe fittings? If so, it sounds like they need a Plumbing license to me.


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## saysflushable

I almost never DISAGREE with to utah now, but one thing we don't need is to let the government have control over another area of our lives. 

Now to the heart of the matter. I would hate to see the noble trade of drain cleaning ruined by only letting plumbers do it. 

It is hard enough to get somebody to clean a drain that is worth a crap now lets limit that pool by requiring a licence----remember licence does not mean good at your trade it only means more control and money to the government. 

By the way, I really like drain cleaning---------plumbing is not my favorite.


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## plbgbiz

saysflushable said:


> ...It is hard enough to get somebody to clean a drain that is worth a crap now lets limit that pool by requiring a licence----remember licence does not mean good at your trade it only means more control and money to the government.
> 
> By the way, I really like drain cleaning---------plumbing is not my favorite.


Just like it is hard enough to get a plumber to plumb a tract house properly. Liking what you do is important but it isn't enough.

Maybe Plumbing licensing should be more compartmentalized like some of the HVAC trades. Not all plumbers are qualified or want to do new installations on a high rise but does that mean they should be allowed to do service work on single family homes without a license?

No, having a license does not mean you're good at it. But doesn't the consumer have a better shot at quality with someone that had to prove a certain level of knowledge and experience rather than rolling the dice on companies with no credentials at all?


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## rocksteady

plbgbiz said:


> No, having a license does not mean you're good at it.


This is true. I'm licensed in California but there are certainly facets of plumbing that I'm not qualified to tackle due to my lack of experience with them. Hydronic heating is one of them. Legaly I could design and intall a system but because I've worked on one in my 16 years of plumbing.






Paul


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## plbgbiz

Plumbing License Program

Plumbing License A
Unlimited Plumbing Contractor - Allowed to make contracts to install, maintain, and hire other Plumbers to install and maintain any plumbing system.

Plumbing License B
Industrial Plumbing Contractor - Any commercial or manufacturing facility

Plumbing License C
Commercial Plumbing Contractor - Any commercial facility not to exceed 10,000 square feet or 3 stories or 5 stories for multi-family buildings 

Plumbing License D
Residential Plumbing Contractor - Any residential single or multi-family building not to exceed 3 stories.

Plumbing License E
Commercial Service Plumbing Contractor - Repair service and drain maintenance only. Not allowed to contract for new construction.

Plumbing License G (skipped "F", it's like skipping the 13th floor :laughing
Residential Service Plumbing Contractor - Repair service and drain maintenance only. Not allowed to contract for new construction.

Each license must be tested for individually.

No test for the "A" license. It is granted after successfully earning all others.


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## ToUtahNow

saysflushable said:


> I almost never DISAGREE with to utah now, but one thing we don't need is to let the government have control over another area of our lives.
> 
> Now to the heart of the matter. I would hate to see the noble trade of drain cleaning ruined by only letting plumbers do it.
> 
> It is hard enough to get somebody to clean a drain that is worth a crap now lets limit that pool by requiring a licence----remember licence does not mean good at your trade it only means more control and money to the government.
> 
> By the way, I really like drain cleaning---------plumbing is not my favorite.


LOL-I'm okay with you disagreeing with me but I don't consider this Government intrusion, I consider it public safety. There are some areas where drain cleaners are required to know something about plumbing and some where it doesn't matter. In some areas all it takes is a business license and nothing else. Now if the drain cleaner never did anything beyond feeding cables I would be okay but most are pulling fixtures or even replacing sewers and drains.

Mark


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## MSilver

saysflushable said:


> I almost never DISAGREE with to utah now, but one thing we don't need is to let the government have control over another area of our lives.
> 
> Now to the heart of the matter. I would hate to see the noble trade of drain cleaning ruined by only letting plumbers do it.
> 
> It is hard enough to get somebody to clean a drain that is worth a crap now lets limit that pool by requiring a licence----remember licence does not mean good at your trade it only means more control and money to the government.
> 
> By the way, I really like drain cleaning---------plumbing is not my favorite.


Yep, license sometimes means nothing, even if you memorized the plumbing codes, can draw isometrics like Da Vinci or read blueprints like an engineer, if you do not have a little common sense and experience in the real world you will allways be a mediocre plumber...


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## saysflushable

To answer the original question I DON'T consider drain cleaning plumbing.

Anyway if you guys want drain cleaners to be licenced I would say it should be a special licence that even plumbers need to get, maybe after serving another apprentiship. 

So how much trouble are you guys seeing with drain cleaners causing public health issues?

I like the fact I can tell the plumbing board or the state to take a flying leap and still make a living drain cleaning.


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## ToUtahNow

saysflushable said:


> To answer the original question I DON'T consider drain cleaning plumbing.
> 
> Anyway if you guys want drain cleaners to be licenced I would say it should be a special licence that even plumbers need to get, maybe after serving another apprentiship.
> 
> So how much trouble are you guys seeing with drain cleaners causing public health issues?
> 
> I like the fact I can tell the plumbing board or the state to take a flying leap and still make a living drain cleaning.


And there in lies the problem. You are responsible but not all drain cleaners are. That's not to say all plumbing contractors are responsible either. However, when a plumbing contractor screws up he is in jeopardy of losing his license which took years to receive. When a drain cleaner screws up is there really anything to risk? Many areas require a plumbing contractor to have contracting bonds, liability insurance and pay into a victim restoration fund. What are drain cleaners required to carry/pay in to?

Mark


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## stillaround

In Chicago, correct me if I'm wrong...plumbers union used to hold the control of all drain laying etc....they gave it up to the laborers union and so you can have a crew of laborers running water main...

How do you want to look at it??
Historically, by virtue of the skill levels required, how much money can be made?


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## incarnatopnh

We have one guy in our area that is a drain cleaner. ( other than RR and the like). He has more money invested in drain cleaning than I do in my whole plumbing and HVAC business. He says he's not a plumber and won't even fix a broken cleanout. He will have the customer call a plumber to fix it. I have tried to pick up a customer for drain cleaning off of those calls. People live him and still call him first and I charge less. Is a drain cleaner a plumber? The good ones aren't.


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## ShaneP

Drain cleaning may not be plumbing, but a little experience with plumbing layout and design would be very beneficial.


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## Bill

When a licensed plumber clears a line its plumbing, but for some company who specializes in nothing but drain cleaning in my eyes are not a plumber.


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## nhmaster3015

_I'll give it another 10 years and your license won't be worth the plastic it's printed on anyway the way things are going now. 


_


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## easttexasplumb

nhmaster3015 said:


> _I'll give it another 10 years and your license won't be worth the plastic it's printed on anyway the way things are going now. _


 
Will it still cost $250.00 to renew. :blink:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

easttexasplumb said:


> Will it still cost $250.00 to renew. :blink:


 

Nope.



$350 I presume. 


I just renewed my journeyman's/masters and I spent $326.00.


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## easttexasplumb

Texas does the same thing they give you both cards, so they can charge more. The theroy is if you have a masters and want to work for someone else, you can show them your journeymans card. The only problem is with a few keystrokes they can look you up online and see that you have a masters and or liability insurance.


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## rob the plumber

I think cleaning drains is plumbing work. I think a good plumber can do all aspects of plumbing.


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## liquid plumber

where i live a company specializing in drain maintenance does not need a cotractor license to do business, so i would not consider them plumbers. just like roto-rooter trucks now have 2 designators on their trucks out here, one says PLUMBERS and the other says DRAINS or some sh***. Not that i take anything away from rooter techs and their abilty, but i think a plumber can do their work but they cant do a plumbers work.


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## liquid plumber

BUT!!! i was just thinkin, it brings to question the worthyness of a service plumber being considered a plumber by a union journeyman. I would venture to say they would see us as SERVICE TECHS and not necessarily plumbers?


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## plbgbiz

liquid plumber said:


> BUT!!! i was just thinkin, it brings to question the worthyness of a service plumber being considered a plumber by a union journeyman. I would venture to say they would see us as SERVICE TECHS and not necessarily plumbers?


There is a large variety of tasks and there are varying degrees of skill that fall under the umbrella of a Licensed Plumber. But they are all "Licensed".


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## EricS

Drain Cleaners are not plumbers. I think that by allowing you to clean drains and not require you to have a plumbing license is an open invitation for the drain cleaner to start offering other services because we all like making a couple of extra bucks. If you are a plumber and don't want to snake drains maybe you should have read the job description a little more carefully before deciding on a career. Just like plumbers should still be required to run water mains outside of the building, now you can be a laborer. Don't give up work when times are good cause it is way harder to get it back. Protect the trade = more money for everyone. My 2 cents.


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## plumber666

Look at Roto-Rooter. Started out as drain cleaning only, now most of their guys are plumbers and apprentices and they do it all (in Canada at least). How many times do drain cleaners hear, "While you're here, can you have a look at this?" A business would be foolish to turn down the work if they're qualified to do it. Unfortunately for us, a lot of them aren't qualified.


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## grandpa

Do you consider a colonoscopy a medical procedure?


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## Mxz--700

Absolutely NOT plumbers if they are only involved in the drain cleaning aspect. Really, would u consider a root rooter guy a Plumber? Sorry but kinda insulting to a licensed / master plumber who also pays through the nose for multiple license fee's!


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## DesertOkie

Mxz--700 said:


> Absolutely NOT plumbers if they are only involved in the drain cleaning aspect. Really, would u consider a root rooter guy a Plumber? Sorry but kinda insulting to a licensed / master plumber who also pays through the nose for multiple license fee's!


Strange, I am a licensed contractor with insurance and bonding. A lic is required to run drains in OK. Some cities or towns here let journeyman run drain businesses, not where I live but where I do most of my work. I consider drain cleaning plumbing and more importantly I consider it money in the bank. 

When I was in AZ we didn't consider new home construction guys plumbers. Just a bunch of illegals slapping abs pipes together, sometimes they even used glue.


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## user7551

DesertOkie said:


> Strange, I am a licensed contractor with insurance and bonding. A lic is required to run drains in OK. Some cities or towns here let journeyman run drain businesses, not where I live but where I do most of my work. I consider drain cleaning plumbing and more importantly I consider it money in the bank.
> 
> When I was in AZ we didn't consider new home construction guys plumbers. Just a bunch of illegals slapping abs pipes together, sometimes they even used glue.


lmao Something we can agree on okie, we here in texas have drain cleaners license and drain cleaners limited license . So drain cleaning is plumbing its where service guys make a lot of money, say for instance your cleaning out a line and figure out theres a break in the line Jackpot $$$$$.The difference in the drain cleaners license and limited is that the limited is supposed to only use c/o's that are already installed, the drain cleaner license can actually install code approved c/o's.


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## DesertOkie

playme1979 said:


> lmao Something we can agree on okie, we here in texas have drain cleaners license and drain cleaners limited license . So drain cleaning is plumbing its where service guys make a lot of money, say for instance your cleaning out a line and figure out theres a break in the line Jackpot $$$$$.The difference in the drain cleaners license and limited is that the limited is supposed to only use c/o's that are already installed, the drain cleaner license can actually install code approved c/o's.


I might change my mind about it now.:laughing:


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## pipe doc

great discussion . after 18 yrs. of installing & maintaining water,drainage,boiler,& treatment we decided to add drain cleaning as a focus of our Co. better margins , more work than other parts of the biz. now . i still feel like a plumber when i shove a cable , camera or a jetter down a drain, i'm just making twice as much.:thumbsup:


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## Airgap

I didn't clean a single drain during my apprenticeship....


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## Will

I'm glad most Plumbers are too proud to get a little crap on them. I'm also glad it take a lot of money to be a Expert and Professional Drain Cleaner. You can't go to Home Depot and buy a K400 and call yourself a Drain Cleaner. That's called a hack. 

Sure people can call a hack or a Plumber that uses a sink machine on a main line that will pop a drain open for 70 bucks, but it's just going to back right back up again and they will call in a EXPERT who has invested in the right equipment like plbgbiz's company or mine here in OKC.

Sewer and Drain Cleaning is big, big business if you know how to market yourself and have the knowledge and equipment to do the job right. 

I've done residential new construction. commercial construction, service repairs, remodels, mechanical pipe fitting, hell I've even done utilities as well as went through a apprentice course, and let me tell you Sewer and Drain Cleaning is 100% PLUMBING. In a nut shell Sewer and Drain Cleaning is repairing, replacing, and maintaining building sewers and building drains. 

Anyway I'd rether you proud Plumbers comtinue to think drain cleaning is hack work, allows people like me and plbgbiz to separate our selfs from the rest of the pack. :thumbup:


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## user2090

First, let me echo what Will said about some plumbers, but with a bit of a deviation. Most in my area will clean drains, but not only if push comes to shove. That is great for me, and I am gearing up to take the Lion's share in 2012 and beyond. 

Second, the thread has gone a little off-rail or at the least taken the wrong wye  in the road. In the OP, and is evidenced by the title, the question was, "Do you really consider drain cleaning and snaking plumbing?", with the OP adding his opinion on drain cleaners being plumbers. 

Drain cleaners in and of themselves are not plumbers, unless they happened to be licensed, that ought to be clear.

Drain cleaning and snaking according to Indiana code is not plumbing, so by definition it is not plumbing. 

However, being a plumber who cleans drains, I would argue with the code(big surprise) and say yes it is plumbing, and take it a step further to say that it should be covered under a licensed plumber. 

Much the same way Water Conditioning is not plumbing (Indiana Code), drain cleaning is to closely tied in with plumbing and plumbing systems to not be plumbing, or at least be under the supervision of a licensed plumber.


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## plbgbiz

Indie said:


> ....Drain cleaning and snaking according to Indiana code is not plumbing, so by definition it is not plumbing...


I guess it is like 75mph is not speeding. But it also depends on whose highway you happen to be on.

This is from the definitions page of the Plumbing Licensing Law of 1955 for the State of Oklahoma. It carries that date because that is when it was instituted. It is still the governing document in out state today.

*9. "Plumbing" means, and includes:*
_a. all piping, fixtures, appurtenances and appliances for, and in connection with, a supply of water within or adjacent to any building, structure, or conveyance, on the premises and to the connection with a water main or other source of supply,_
_
_
_*b.* *all piping, fixtures, appurtenances and appliances for sanitary drainage or storm drainage facilities, including venting systems for such facilities, within or adjacent to any building, structure, or conveyance, on the premises and to the connection with a public disposal system or other acceptable terminal, *_
_
_
*c. the installation, repair, maintenance and renovation of all piping, fixtures, appurtenances and appliances for a supply of water, or for the disposal of waste water, liquid waste, or sewage within or adjacent to any building, structure, or conveyance, on the premises and to the source of supply of water or point of disposal of wastes, and*
_
_
_d. the installation, repair and maintenance of radiant-floor heating system piping in residential homes with capacities no greater than one hundred thousand (100,000) BTU’s using only piping approved by the most current adopted edition of the International Mechanical Code; and_

So, in Oklahoma if you consider drain cleaning to be "repair or maintenance" of piping for the disposal of waste water, liquid waste, or sewage within or adjacent to a building, then...

*YES* it is plumbing,and...

*YES* it should be performed *ONLY* by a *LICENSED PROFESSIONAL PLUMBER*.


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## easttexasplumb

2) *"Drain cleaner" *means a person who: 
(A) has completed at least 4,000 hours working under the supervision of a master plumber as a drain cleaner-restricted registrant; 
(B) has fulfilled the requirements of and is registered with the board; and 
(C) installs cleanouts and removes and resets p-traps to eliminate obstructions in building drains and sewers under the supervision of a responsible master plumber. 
(3) *"Drain cleaner-restricted registrant" *means a person who: 
(A) has worked as a plumber's apprentice under the supervision of a master plumber; 
(B) has fulfilled the requirements of and is registered with the board; and 
(C) clears obstructions in sewer and drain lines through any code-approved existing opening under the supervision of a responsible master plumber 

(7) *"Plumbing" *means: 
(A) a fixture, appurtenance, appliance, or piping, including a disposal system, used to: 
(i) supply, distribute, circulate, or recirculate water, other liquid, or gas; or 
(ii) eliminate sewage for a personal or domestic purpose; 
(B) a fixture, appurtenance, appliance, or piping used outside a building to connect the building to: 
(i) a supply of water, other liquid, medical gases and vacuum, or other gas on the premises; or 
(ii) the main in the street or alley or at the curb; 
(C) a fixture, appurtenance, appliance, or piping, including a drain or waste pipe, used to carry wastewater or sewage from or within a building to: 
(i) a sewer service lateral at the curb or in the street or alley; or 
(ii) a disposal or septic terminal that holds private or domestic sewage; or 
(D) the installation, repair, service, or maintenance of a fixture, appurtenance, appliance, or piping described by Paragraph (A), (B), or (C). 

(5) *"Master plumber" *means a person licensed under this chapter who: 
(A) is skilled in the design, planning, and superintending of plumbing and in the practical installation, repair, and servicing of plumbing; 
(B) has worked as a journeyman plumber: 
(i) for at least four years; or 
(ii) for at least one year and has successfully completed a training program approved by the United States Department of Labor Office of Apprenticeship or another nationally recognized apprentice training program accepted by the board; 
(C) performs or supervises plumbing work; 
(D) has passed the required examination; and 
(E) has fulfilled the other requirements of the board. 

Dont mess with Texas plumbers who clean drains.


----------



## ToUtahNow

That is pretty cut and dry in Oklahoma.

With the exception of when we had an overload of work we always did drain cleaning. We did everything in plumbing, commercial, residential, industrial. We also did new work, remodel work, and service work. If the phone rang we were ready to go to work. For those times where we just couldn't get to it I had a couple of drain cleaners I trusted and would recommend. In turn, when they had stuff they could not handle they would send the work to us.

Mark


----------



## ToUtahNow

It looks like California says it's plumbing too. Drain cleaners must get away with it under the handyman clause.

C36 - Plumbing Contractor

California Code of Regulations
Title 16, Division 8, Article 3. Classifications

A plumbing contractor provides a means for a supply of safe water, ample in volume and of suitable temperature for the purpose intended and the proper disposal of fluid waste from the premises in all structures and fixed works. This classification includes but is not limited to:

(a) Complete removal of waste from the premises or the construction and connection of on-site waste disposal systems;

(b) Piping, storage tanks and venting for a safe and adequate supply of gases and liquids for any purpose, including vacuum, compressed air and gases for medical, dental, commercial and industrial uses;

(c) All gas appliances, flues and gas connections for all systems including suspended space heating units. This does not include forced warm air units;

(d) Water and gas piping from the property owner's side of the utility meter to the structure or fixed works;

(e) Installation of any type of equipment to heat water, or fluids, to a temperature suitable for the purposes listed in this section, including the installation of solar equipment for this purpose; and

(f) The maintenance and replacement of all items described above and all health and safety devices such as, but not limited to, gas earthquake valves, gas control valves, back flow preventors, water conditioning equipment and regulating valves.

Mark


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

easttexasplumb said:


> 2) "Drain cleaner" means a person who:
> (A) has completed at least 4,000 hours working under the supervision of a master plumber as a drain cleaner-restricted registrant;
> (B) has fulfilled the requirements of and is registered with the board; and
> (C) installs cleanouts and removes and resets p-traps to eliminate obstructions in building drains and sewers under the supervision of a responsible master plumber.
> (3) "Drain cleaner-restricted registrant" means a person who:
> (A) has worked as a plumber's apprentice under the supervision of a master plumber;
> (B) has fulfilled the requirements of and is registered with the board; and
> (C) clears obstructions in sewer and drain lines through any code-approved existing opening under the supervision of a responsible master plumber
> 
> (7) "Plumbing" means:
> (A) a fixture, appurtenance, appliance, or piping, including a disposal system, used to:
> (i) supply, distribute, circulate, or recirculate water, other liquid, or gas; or
> (ii) eliminate sewage for a personal or domestic purpose;
> (B) a fixture, appurtenance, appliance, or piping used outside a building to connect the building to:
> (i) a supply of water, other liquid, medical gases and vacuum, or other gas on the premises; or
> (ii) the main in the street or alley or at the curb;
> (C) a fixture, appurtenance, appliance, or piping, including a drain or waste pipe, used to carry wastewater or sewage from or within a building to:
> (i) a sewer service lateral at the curb or in the street or alley; or
> (ii) a disposal or septic terminal that holds private or domestic sewage; or
> (D) the installation, repair, service, or maintenance of a fixture, appurtenance, appliance, or piping described by Paragraph (A), (B), or (C).
> 
> (5) "Master plumber" means a person licensed under this chapter who:
> (A) is skilled in the design, planning, and superintending of plumbing and in the practical installation, repair, and servicing of plumbing;
> (B) has worked as a journeyman plumber:
> (i) for at least four years; or
> (ii) for at least one year and has successfully completed a training program approved by the United States Department of Labor Office of Apprenticeship or another nationally recognized apprentice training program accepted by the board;
> (C) performs or supervises plumbing work;
> (D) has passed the required examination; and
> (E) has fulfilled the other requirements of the board.
> 
> Dont mess with Texas plumbers who clean drains.


Yea yea. In Tx you don't have to be licensed to clean drains. Heck they have a license you can get after two years in the field ... Tradesman. You can do any thing on a one story residential single family dwelling. Most young service guys here are just tradesman !!!!


----------



## Will

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Yea yea. In Tx you don't have to be licensed to clean drains. Heck they have a license you can get after two years in the field ... Tradesman. You can do any thing on a one story residential single family dwelling. Most young service guys here are just tradesman !!!!



Sorry bud, your wrong on that. You have to be under the supervision of a responsible master plumber.

After rereading your post, I'm confused on your opinion. Are you saying tradesman license allows you to work on you own(it doesn't) or you saying you can work on your own(single dwelling only) under a master? You can only work under a Master. I should know I have had a Texas Tradesman and Journeyman license.


----------



## SlickRick

You can't just go out and get a truck and start a drain cleaning biz in Texas.


----------



## DesertOkie

I think it comes down to:

Plumbers that do drains correctly think it is plumbing.

Plumbers who can't do drains and would probably run a dry vent for hours trying to clear a line don't. 

I am sure they would be outraged by a HO calling a handyman to change a Delta lav faucet cartridge though.


----------



## user7551

SlickRick said:


> You can't just go out and get a truck and start a drain cleaning biz in Texas.


Absolutely correct gotta have master license plus insurance to do any plumbing in texas

And coming Jan 1st if u don't have insurance on file with state plumbing board you will be required to take more classes before u can use your master license.Some type of business classes.So those in texas better make sure their insurance is on file before the new year.


----------



## Turd Chaser

Cleaning drains, drawing an iso, cutting the lawn...it doesn't matter. If the customer asks me to do something, consider it done. I am a licensed plumber and do occassionally clean a drain or too. I don't like it but it pays the bills. As far as the people who strictly clean drains-NOT PLUMBERS unless they hold a valid state credential...:thumbup:


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

Will said:


> Sorry bud, your wrong on that. You have to be under the supervision of a responsible master plumber.
> 
> After rereading your post, I'm confused on your opinion. Are you saying tradesman license allows you to work on you own(it doesn't) or you saying you can work on your own(single dwelling only) under a master? You can only work under a Master. I should know I have had a Texas Tradesman and Journeyman license.


Yes that's how I ment It. You can only work under a rmp !!! Not ur own company!!! My point was to go run drains for a company you don't have to be a licensed journeyman master or tradesman. All you have to have is a drain cleaning license to clean drains for a company with a rmp !!!! And tradesman can work only under a rmp I know Tx plumbing license law!!! And I also don't think a tradesman is a true plumber!! How can you learn what you need to know in 2 years. Maybe I guess cuz it's just residential work!! I didn't waste time with the tradesman because it wast worth any thing in the com or mech field!!! No offense to any tradesman out there. Just my opinion


----------



## Mxz--700

Really in most cases the drain monkeys are just poking a small hole through a drain line ( kitchen or basin , not main line) when the line is most likely in need of replacement by a licensed plumber,and no, it is not "beneath me" to clean a drain, have done at least a thousand, but u know what, there is no sales in it and it is bloodmoney with the customer usually bummed out about literally throwing money down the drain. Now since our large sewer snake broke we just sub it all out and make real money by actually doing plumbing...


----------



## DesertOkie

Whatever makes you sleep better at night.


----------



## Mxz--700

Having a solid licensing system does. I'm happy r u?


----------



## sidekick

*drain leaning*

In order to satisfy your customer and the referrals you need to broaden our ability and be diversified. “Don’t limit yourself”. When you r customers request or when you get referrals to clear a drain. Do you scoop to that level or do pass it on?


----------



## suzie

Drain Cleaning should be explained as preventative maintenance at best, If you have your customers on bio-clean and if, you can provide them with an alternative plumbing option(s) to satisfy the customers problem or concerns, everyone will be in a win, win situation.


----------



## Airgap

grandpa said:


> Do you consider a colonoscopy a medical procedure?


We're talkin about enema's, not video inspection.....


----------



## DesertOkie

Mxz--700 said:


> Really in most cases the drain monkeys are just poking a small hole through a drain line ( kitchen or basin , not main line) when the line is most likely in need of replacement by a licensed plumber,and no, it is not "beneath me" to clean a drain, have done at least a thousand, but u know what, there is no sales in it and it is bloodmoney with the customer usually bummed out about literally throwing money down the drain. Now since our large sewer snake broke we just sub it all out and make real money by actually doing plumbing...


You might want to read your own post. Sounds like the drain hacks don't do a good job and they need a lic plumber to clean them. 

I'm fine with the lic requirements in OK. I've seen work in lic and non lic states. In both there are hacks who think they are plumbers because they have a pipe wrench.


----------



## plbgbiz

Mxz--700 said:


> ...but u know what, there is no sales in it...we just sub it all out and make real money by actually doing plumbing...


That must be why RR is one of the largest, most successful, and cash rich franchises (service businesses) in U.S. history.

If properly maintaining sanitary drainage systems and having the technical expertise to keep them separate from our potable water isn't actual Plumbing, then I doubt whatever it is you do with pipes is actual Plumbing either.


----------



## rocksteady

Airgap said:


> We're talkin about enema's, not video inspection.....


More like an angioplasty. I'd consider that a medical procedure and I wouldn't hire somebody off of Craigslist to do it.






Paul


----------



## Airgap

rocksteady said:


> More like an angioplasty. I'd consider that a medical procedure and I wouldn't hire somebody off of Craigslist to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paul


I've been to a couple of Dr's, that may as well have come off Craigslist....


----------



## DesertOkie

Airgap said:


> I've been to a couple of Dr's, that may as well have come off Craigslist....


You should have known, when they have a liposuction table in the garage they aren't up to AMA standards.

I learned this the hard way too.


----------



## Airgap

DesertOkie said:


> You should have known, when they have a liposuction table in the garage they aren't up to AMA standards.
> 
> I learned this the hard way too.


Was this your Dr?


----------



## 3Peasdrain

To begin with this whole thing about licsense or no licsense is a joke. I probably work for 17 to 23 plumbers or plumbing co. They call me for all their drain cleaning needs. So to have a licsense or not is senseless. They all tell me to pull the toilet and reset or if a pipe needs to be cut out and replaced to do it. They have seen my work and that says enough to them that i am treated like an equal. Even though they dont like to get dirty


----------



## DesertOkie

Airgap said:


> Was this your Dr?
> 
> View attachment 12853



I saw her leaving when I came in, I got her #. "I Like big butts I can......:whistling2:


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

3Peasdrain said:


> To begin with this whole thing about licsense or no licsense is a joke. I probably work for 17 to 23 plumbers or plumbing co. They call me for all their drain cleaning needs. So to have a licsense or not is senseless. They all tell me to pull the toilet and reset or if a pipe needs to be cut out and replaced to do it. They have seen my work and that says enough to them that i am treated like an equal. Even though they dont like to get dirty


Are you licensed???


----------



## user2090

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Are you licensed???



Must not be with the way the post was written. Its all good the site is for Plumbing Professionals. 

There you have it folks, finally after much debate the Zone has solved the dilemma about drain cleaning. :no::yes:


Drain cleaning is....


----------



## plbgbiz

3Peasdrain said:


> To begin with this whole thing about licsense or no licsense is a joke. I probably work for 17 to 23 plumbers or plumbing co. They call me for all their drain cleaning needs. So to have a licsense or not is senseless.....


So it is senseless to follow licensing laws because you have 23 plumbers that are willing to be accomplices?:laughing::furious::laughing::furious:

Less than two years ago (02/2010) you posted:


3Peasdrain said:


> guys *very new to the drain cleaning field* was wondering the best way to to snake a house trap do i go from the house side or the street side????...


Then a whole six months later you proclaimed:


3Peasdrain said:


> ...*I have been in the plumbing and drain cleaning trade for 20 years *and have found my calling to be repair work in plumbing and some serious drain cleaning I love the smell its just dollars in the drawer.....


Then six months later you posted:


3Peasdrain said:


> I am looking to hire in 6 months....


I'm not surprised you think it's OK to piss on a Plumber's License.


----------



## Titan Plumbing

Ahhhh, the interweb is such a comforting place.


----------



## NYC Plumber

plbgbiz said:


> So it is senseless to follow licensing laws because you have 23 plumbers that are willing to be accomplices?:laughing::furious::laughing::furious:
> 
> Less than two years ago (02/2010) you posted:
> 
> Then a whole six months later you proclaimed:
> 
> Then six months later you posted:
> 
> I'm not surprised you think it's OK to piss on a Plumber's License.


Lol! Peabrain is clearly a joke.
Licsense lol.
I like the street side house side question.
Should we also let him know that there is just a little more to plumbing than setting bowls?


----------



## plbgbiz

And another thing...

I can't believe we were duped into giving you serious advice on hiring an employee. I hope for your new-hire's sake, you didn't.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

plbgbiz said:


> So it is senseless to follow licensing laws because you have 23 plumbers that are willing to be accomplices?:laughing::furious::laughing::furious:
> 
> Less than two years ago (02/2010) you posted:
> 
> Then a whole six months later you proclaimed:
> 
> Then six months later you posted:
> 
> I'm not surprised you think it's OK to piss on a Plumber's License.


What way to clean a house trap??? God almighty!!! Yea lest push up the line !! Cuz we all know that's how crap flows... Up hill rite!!!


----------



## ToUtahNow

Why can't 3peasdrain be a 20-year plumber who is new to drain cleaning?

Mark


----------



## Titan Plumbing

This may just call for a vacation...


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

3Peasdrain said:


> To begin with this whole thing about licsense or no licsense is a joke. I probably work for 17 to 23 plumbers or plumbing co. They call me for all their drain cleaning needs. So to have a licsense or not is senseless. They all tell me to pull the toilet and reset or if a pipe needs to be cut out and replaced to do it. They have seen my work and that says enough to them that i am treated like an equal. Even though they dont like to get dirty


Here's yer sign!!!!!!!! SMFing hack


----------



## plbgbiz

ToUtahNow said:


> Why can't 3peasdrain be a 20-year plumber who is new to drain cleaning?
> 
> Mark


I'm sure he can Mark but according to his posts, I'm guessing that's not going to happen for another 18 years or so. However, now some of his suggestions like _toilets should not be caulked but should be set with plaster_ and recommending _cleaning a clogged urinal drain with a soda pop_ make a little more sense.

Here's the thing...I will readily admit that according to some I might be a bit over passionate for my Trade. So it is entirely possible that I was being too narrow minded and prejudged his comments unfairly. If that is the case I sincerely apologize. 

Otherwise, I stand by my previous rant.


----------



## DesertOkie

Soda pop? Like for car battery terminals?

Don't ever move to AZ Biz, you would die. Pipe wrench = plumber pipe wrench and van = contractor. They don't last long but they do some damage before they quit.


----------



## Mxz--700

plbgbiz said:


> That must be why RR is one of the largest, most successful, and cash rich franchises (service businesses) in U.S. history.
> 
> If properly maintaining sanitary drainage systems and having the technical expertise to keep them separate from our potable water isn't actual Plumbing, then I doubt whatever it is you do with pipes is actual Plumbing either.


No, your right, it is actually artwork what I do. I leave it to the wannabe guys to the brainless work of snaking pipes. Yeah, Mcdonalds is a franchise too but I would rather eat at a fine restaurant than a amateur burger flippers place... Sorry but the franchise scheme just don't prove they are plumbers,just maintenance guys at best. Almost as bad as someone installing a bathtub OVER another one and actually thinking it is a quality job.


----------



## plbgbiz

Mxz--700 said:


> ...Sorry but the franchise scheme just don't prove they are plumbers,just maintenance guys at best.


I was in no way making a statement as to the quality of the work provided by RR. I was simply addressing your statements regarding drain cleaning that *"...u know what, there is no sales in it..."* and that _*"...we just sub it all out and make real money by actually doing plumbing..."*_.

Your post was a knock against drain cleaning based on your belief that it is not lucrative while the Plumbing work you do is. No matter what you think of the skill (or lack there of) exhibited by Plumbers that focus on drain cleaning or your feelings about RR, there are a lot of sales in it.

The published 3rd quarter sales for RR is $88.5 million. That translates to somewhere around $1,475,000 per work day. Not bad for a part of our Trade that has no sales in it.


----------



## Mxz--700

plbgbiz said:


> I was in no way making a statement as to the quality of the work provided by RR. I was simply addressing your statements regarding drain cleaning that *"...u know what, there is no sales in it..."* and that _*"...we just sub it all out and make real money by actually doing plumbing..."*_.
> 
> Your post was a knock against drain cleaning based on your belief that it is not lucrative while the Plumbing work you do is. No matter what you think of the skill (or lack there of) exhibited by Plumbers that focus on drain cleaning or your feelings about RR, there are a lot of sales in it.
> 
> The published 3rd quarter sales for RR is $88.5 million. That translates to somewhere around $1,475,000 per work day. Not bad for a part of our Trade that has no sales in it.


. Those are some pretty poor sales figures if you would compare those numbers to the same amount of actual plumbers doing real plumbing and heating. Just in NY. Alone I'm sure we do more than that per day.. And you are talking about a national franchise.


----------



## plbgbiz

Mxz--700 said:


> . Those are some pretty poor sales figures if you would compare those numbers to the same amount of actual plumbers doing real plumbing and heating. Just in NY. Alone I'm sure we do more than that per day.. And you are talking about a national franchise.


Agreed and you are correct. I also have no doubt that percentage wise, drain cleaning alone is not over 50% of our Trade's sales compared to all other aspects of Plumbing sales. But that is a far cry from "there are no sales in it".

RR is easy to pick on from any angle because they are nationwide and also very successful. But they are by no means the only Plumbing company that focuses on drain cleaning as their primary niche. And they are certainly not the only one that makes money doing it.

MONEY. That is the ONLY reason this thread is a relevant topic. If there wasn't good money to be had cutting roots and de-greasing kitchen sink lines, hacks wouldn't be beating down our doors to steal the work. If we as a trade continue to allow a valid part of our skill set to be marginalized, then we will all be weaker for it.


----------



## 3Peasdrain

To all of you premondonna plumbers who think drain cleaners are hacks Im glad you dont like drain cleaning it just means more work for me and plumbers like you will never get a recommondation from me cause you guys think that you are above us drain cleaners. Its too bad that alot of you plumbers cant snake a drain properly and even explain whats going on to your customers. You guys who think your above doing drain cleaning can kiss my [email protected] 
:thumbup:


----------



## plbgbiz

3Peasdrain said:


> To all of you premondonna plumbers who think drain cleaners are hacks Im glad you dont like drain cleaning it just means more work for me and plumbers like you will never get a recommondation from me cause you guys think that you are above us drain cleaners. Its too bad that alot of you plumbers cant snake a drain properly and even explain whats going on to your customers....


Well there you have it 3PD, that's our common ground. :yes:

Here's where we part, if a Licensed Plumber chooses one aspect of the trade over another, I couldn't possibly care less. UNLESS...that work ends up in the hands of an UNLICENSED drain cleaning hack.

Drain cleaners are not hacks. *UNLICENSED* DRAIN CLEANERS ARE HACKS.

Just because some members of the trade may well turn their nose up at drain maintenance tasks, that shouldn't give others with no verifiable credentials allowance to _*ILLEGALLY*_ dog-pile into a skilled and licensed trade.

That makes as much sense as putting free bridges over the Rio Grande because a lot of Americans don't want to pick potatoes.


----------



## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

It is definitely a part of plumbing so is chimney cleaning and boiler decarbonization. However sewer guys need to be talented, they need to understand plumbing design as well as have a good feel and good ears. I respect good and honest sewer guys, maybe because I stink at it.
I have worked with several really good sewer guys who have taught me alot of tricks and stuff and I ain't scared of getting dirty but I stink. 
Subbing out sewer cleaning and camera inspection work brings me in more work, I find that working with other specialists whose work might overlap mine can still be profitable.


----------



## beachplumber

Definitely plumbing no?


----------



## OldSchool

it is definetly part of plumbing .... so is installing HWT

in all reality there is not enough real licenced plumbers to go around... this is the reason you have guys doing stuff like drain cleaning and HWT installs.

At one time our ministry of trades sent me a water meter installation ticket because of my plumbing ticket..

The only thing I could figure was there was not enough real journeyman to do the work.... so they must have ran a short training coarse for those guys and gave them a water meter ticket.

This is why our trade is being split up into different groups .....


----------



## KCplumber

I owned & operated a sewer & drain cleaning business for 15 years, got hired by a plumber, did an apprenticeship & got my masters license, now that I'm on my own as a master plumber I don't have time for drain cleaning but there are some damn good drain cleaning specialists with top notch equipment that don't have to be licensed in wisconsin


----------



## OldSchool

KCplumber said:


> I owned & operated a sewer & drain cleaning business for 15 years, got hired by a plumber, did an apprenticeship & got my masters license, now that I'm on my own as a master plumber I don't have time for drain cleaning but there are some damn good drain cleaning specialists with top notch equipment that don't have to be licensed in wisconsin


My point exactly ... now that you are a real plumber you don't have time for smaller tasks of plumbing


----------



## Greenguy

Nice thing about drain cleaning is if your equipment is properly maintained there is little additional costs to carry. Drain cleaning is like changing filters for an HVAC guy it's preventive maintence or a mechanic doing an oil change we all do it, often it may be under ememergency conditions. 

As to being licensed that debate depends on which state or province you are located in. My first service company I worked for did mostly drain cleaning, flushing and camera work, it really taught me the importance of placing clean outs properly.


----------



## KCplumber

Still remains a bit of a gray area - I don't mind refering the one that I know doesn't do any other plumbing work
I still have all the equipment, if it ever gets slow enough I would do it ( Anything for a buck)


----------



## plbgbiz

KCplumber said:


> Still remains a bit of a gray area - I don't mind refering the one that I know doesn't do any other plumbing work
> I still have all the equipment, if it ever gets slow enough I would do it ( Anything for a buck)


If he carries p-traps, closet bolts, supply lines, angle stops, glue/primer, or any DWV fittings on his truck then referring drain work to him will end up being one of the reasons you get slow.

The OP asked whether or not drain cleaning is "plumbing". There has not been one post that has suggested anything other than it IS. Oh sure there have been plenty of reasons why some refuse to do it but it is still Plumbing. This is an undeniable fact regardless of an individual state's right to ignore enforcement or even refusing to enact laws governing it.

I believe there are some amazing unlicensed mechanics that have incredible skills and expertise in drain cleaning. I also believe it is an undeniable fact that even the best of them have holes in their knowledge.

It is only a gray area because laziness and complacency allow it to be.

*IPC 2009
CHAPTER 2 - DEFINITIONS
Page 13
PLUMBING.....The practice, materials and fixtures utilized in the installation, MAINTENANCE, extension and alteration of ALL PIPING, fixtures, plumbing appliances and plumbing appurtenances, within or adjacent to any structure, in connection with SANITARY DRAINAGE, or STORM DRAINAGE facilities; VENTING systems; and public or private SEWERS.*

So it is yet another undeniable fact that when anyone (licensed or not) unscrews a c/o plug to cable a building sewer, puts a cable down a vent pipe, pours Clobber in a kitchen sink drain, runs a jetter into area drains, takes out a pop-up assembly, pulls a toilet, or removes a p-trap, *THEY ARE PLUMBING.*

And yet here we are in this so-called Plumbing Zone with a steady stream of Licensed Plumbers proclaiming the virtues of casting that critical part of Service Plumbing to unlicensed drain cleaners. Why? Because it is difficult, dirty, smelly, and has a negative stigma attached. Well guess what, the only reason it has that negative stigma is because Plumbers are propagating the lie.

*Let's try this on for size and see how it fits:*
There isn't anyone on the face of the earth that hates doing new construction more than me. I think Service Plumbing is where the real plumbers are. In fact, I also think plumbers that insist on ONLY doing new work are weak.

They wouldn't know real plumbing work if I hit them in the head with my #2 spade. Anybody can throw pipe on the ground when the house isn't on top of it. High rises? Geez, who couldn't do that with a building full of guys watching to make sure you don't produce more than the group thinks they should do that day. If they spent as much time working as they did hiding behind the gang box or riding the service elevator, maybe they'd get some work done.

There's only two reasons why new construction plumbers exist:
1. Provide work for the Service Plumbers after the tail light warranty expires.
2. Keep the girls that can't handle Service Plumbing off the streets.

It's just not really plumbing what they do, so I think we should just refer all of that to unlicensed people since I don't have to worry about being in that environment. No skin off my back. After all, your not going to convince me that it takes actual Plumbing Trade Skills to throw a spaghetti bowl of PEX on the ground or tighten no-hub clamps with a nut driver are you?:laughing::jester:

All jokes aside....
You only want to do big construction on high rises? Great! Have at it.
You only want to do new clean installs on custom houses? Great! Have at it.
You want to do service work? Great! Have at it.
You want to do drain maintenance work? Great! Have at it.

All four are Plumbing. All four receive more respect from me than you can imagine. All four should require apprenticeships, training, and credentials in the form of a licensed earned by testing. Just because you despise one, that doesn't make the other three any better.

And again I wonder, where is the jealousy for your craft and your livelihood?

This is only a gray area if we refuse to take off our rose colored glasses.


----------



## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

To the OP, the answer is YES. In my professional opinion, i would find it rather hard to drain clean anything without understanding and knowing how a basic plumbing DWV system would be laid out.


----------



## drtyhands

plbgbiz said:


> If he carries p-traps, closet bolts, supply lines, angle stops, glue/primer, or any DWV fittings on his truck then referring drain work to him will end up being one of the reasons you get slow.
> 
> The OP asked whether or not drain cleaning is "plumbing". There has not been one post that has suggested anything other than it IS. Oh sure there have been plenty of reasons why some refuse to do it but it is still Plumbing. This is an undeniable fact regardless of an individual state's right to ignore enforcement or even refusing to enact laws governing it.
> 
> I believe there are some amazing unlicensed mechanics that have incredible skills and expertise in drain cleaning. I also believe it is an undeniable fact that even the best of them have holes in their knowledge.
> 
> It is only a gray area because laziness and complacency allow it to be.
> 
> *IPC 2009*
> *CHAPTER 2 - DEFINITIONS*
> *Page 13*
> *PLUMBING.....The practice, materials and fixtures utilized in the installation, MAINTENANCE, extension and alteration of ALL PIPING, fixtures, plumbing appliances and plumbing appurtenances, within or adjacent to any structure, in connection with SANITARY DRAINAGE, or STORM DRAINAGE facilities; VENTING systems; and public or private SEWERS.*
> 
> So it is yet another undeniable fact that when anyone (licensed or not) unscrews a c/o plug to cable a building sewer, puts a cable down a vent pipe, pours Clobber in a kitchen sink drain, runs a jetter into area drains, takes out a pop-up assembly, pulls a toilet, or removes a p-trap, *THEY ARE PLUMBING.*
> 
> And yet here we are in this so-called Plumbing Zone with a steady stream of Licensed Plumbers proclaiming the virtues of casting that critical part of Service Plumbing to unlicensed drain cleaners. Why? Because it is difficult, dirty, smelly, and has a negative stigma attached. Well guess what, the only reason it has that negative stigma is because Plumbers are propagating the lie.
> 
> *Let's try this on for size and see how it fits:*
> There isn't anyone on the face of the earth that hates doing new construction more than me. I think Service Plumbing is where the real plumbers are. In fact, I also think plumbers that insist on ONLY doing new work are weak.
> 
> They wouldn't know real plumbing work if I hit them in the head with my #2 spade. Anybody can throw pipe on the ground when the house isn't on top of it. High rises? Geez, who couldn't do that with a building full of guys watching to make sure you don't produce more than the group thinks they should do that day. If they spent as much time working as they did hiding behind the gang box or riding the service elevator, maybe they'd get some work done.
> 
> There's only two reasons why new construction plumbers exist:
> 1. Provide work for the Service Plumbers after the tail light warranty expires.
> 2. Keep the girls that can't handle Service Plumbing off the streets.
> 
> It's just not really plumbing what they do, so I think we should just refer all of that to unlicensed people since I don't have to worry about being in that environment. No skin off my back. After all, your not going to convince me that it takes actual Plumbing Trade Skills to throw a spaghetti bowl of PEX on the ground or tighten no-hub clamps with a nut driver are you?:laughing::jester:
> 
> All jokes aside....
> You only want to do big construction on high rises? Great! Have at it.
> You only want to do new clean installs on custom houses? Great! Have at it.
> You want to do service work? Great! Have at it.
> You want to do drain maintenance work? Great! Have at it.
> 
> All four are Plumbing. All four receive more respect from me than you can imagine. All four should require apprenticeships, training, and credentials in the form of a licensed earned by testing. Just because you despise one, that doesn't make the other three any better.
> 
> And again I wonder, where is the jealousy for your craft and your livelihood?
> 
> This is only a gray area if we refuse to take off our rose colored glasses.


That is a classic post.
Biz you have a gift of great communication skills.
You put a smile on my face.It's not even a bad thing.If I ever have a chance to roll out a set of plans on the hood of the truck before starting the day putting in a ground work I think I'd gladly pay a few hundred to fly you out.We would have a fun time.Hopefully you would cut me a break on your daily rate while your company's on auto pilot.

Drain cleaning is rewarding to me.
I love opening drain lines when scammers fail at attempts to rip off my future customer.
The other's $39.99 is turning out to get me more and more work.


----------



## plbgbiz

drtyhands said:


> ...If I ever have a chance to roll out a set of plans on the hood of the truck before starting the day putting in a ground work I think I'd gladly pay a few hundred to fly you out.We would have a fun time....


As long as you don't expect me to be be useful. :laughing:


----------



## plbgbiz

Do codes other than the IPC define "Plumbing" the same way?


----------



## OldSchool

well said Biz..

A little long winded... almost lost me.... but I read the whole rant... very well said


----------



## plbgbiz

OldSchool said:


> A little long winded...


Probably a lot long winded. :yes:


----------



## Epox

I haven't chimed in on this yet, but for me, yeah it's plumbing, no question. And we all know they pull traps, and make repairs.


----------



## Mxz--700

plbgbiz said:


> Do codes other than the IPC define "Plumbing" the same way?


Let me try to see exactly where u are coming from with this whole thread, because I both agree and disagree with you. This is my take on it, drain cleaning is in fact plumbing (which I agree). But do you believe being a drain cleaning guy makes you a plumber? This is where I am losing you, because I sure don't . That makes anyone a plumber. They are simply maintenance guys DOING plumbing. Kind of like me drawing a picture of a house doesn't make me an architect,right?. I just have a huge prob with these wannabe unlicensed guys running around calling themselves " Plumbers".


----------



## SlickRick

Mxz--700 said:


> Let me try to see exactly where u are coming from with this whole thread, because I both agree and disagree with you. This is my take on it, drain cleaning is in fact plumbing (which I agree). But do you believe being a drain cleaning guy makes you a plumber? This is where I am losing you, because I sure don't . That makes anyone a plumber. They are simply maintenance guys DOING plumbing. Kind of like me drawing a picture of a house doesn't make me an architect,right?. I just have a huge prob with these wannabe unlicensed guys running around calling themselves " Plumbers".


I believe Biz is saying the same same.


----------



## plbgbiz

Mxz--700 said:


> But do you believe being a drain cleaning guy makes you a plumber? This is where I am losing you, because I sure don't . That makes anyone a plumber. They are simply maintenance guys DOING plumbing. Kind of like me drawing a picture of a house doesn't make me an architect,right?. I just have a huge prob with these wannabe unlicensed guys running around calling themselves " Plumbers".


I agree 100%. A Plumber might well become an effective drain cleaner but a person whose sole knowledge and experience is drain cleaning is by no means a Plumber. I don't care if he can dance the Nutcracker on a rooftop with a K1500, he's not a Plumber and has no business accessing the inside of a piping system.

Quite simply, if any particular Plumber chooses to do drain cleaning or chooses not to it matters not. But a person that has yet to prove by the only means we have (tests for licensing) that they posses the needed knowledge of Plumbing systems to be able to work on Plumbing correctly.

Should unlicensed dental workers be allowed to install braces just because some other dentists focus only on installing permanent implants?


----------



## plbgbiz

Sorry if I wasn't clear. As OS pointed out, I do tend to get long winded and sometimes I lose myself.


----------



## user2090

plbgbiz said:


> I agree 100%. A Plumber might well become an effective drain cleaner but a person whose sole knowledge and experience is drain cleaning is by no means a Plumber. I don't care if he can dance the Nutcracker on a rooftop with a K1500, he's not a Plumber and has no business accessing the inside of a piping system.
> 
> Quite simply, if any particular Plumber chooses to do drain cleaning or chooses not to it matters not. But a person that has yet to prove by the only means we have (tests for licensing) that they posses the needed knowledge of Plumbing systems to be able to work on Plumbing correctly.
> 
> Should unlicensed dental workers be allowed to install braces just because some other dentists focus only on installing permanent implants?


Couldn't agree with you more Mr. Biz. The problem often lies in the fuzzy line or gray area that our particular Licensing Boards allow. As long as we keep allowing those who are ignorant of what it is we do make the rules we can never hope for a change. 

While many others claim to have gone the same road, I suppose I will try it for myself and join what associations are available to make some effort to put necessary enforcements in check. 

The right things seems so easy to do, that it is almost incomprehensible that those who we charge to protect the public health don't do it. At least in Indiana, unless your in one of the big counties and even then its only enforced when it comes to permits. 

We've already defined what plumbing is, why in the world isn't all plumbing work covered under licensing laws?


----------



## SlickRick

I like the fact that I can send a apprentice, with the required hrs. and endorsement to clean a drain, or work on a yard service/ main sewer replacement without having me or a journeyman on site at all times. 

Somethings just don't require my skill level.

As long as they know when to call in the gun's if needed.

IMO, it is not a wise decision to let anyone that is not backed by a skilled plumber to stick something as powerful as one of these machines in a line unless they have the capability to resolve any issues that might arise.


----------



## user2090

SlickRick said:


> I like the fact that I can send a apprentice, with the required hrs. and endorsement to clean a drain, or work on a yard service/ main sewer replacement without having me or a journeyman on site at all times.
> 
> Somethings just don't require my skill level.
> 
> As long as they know when to call in the gun's if needed.
> 
> IMO, it is not a wise decision to let anyone that is not backed by a skilled plumber to stick something as powerful as one of these machines in a line unless they have the capability to resolve any issues that might arise.


I like the way that is set up in your State. That is what Indiana needs to do, make certifications or certain levels of licensing to cover the different levels of plumbing work. 

Level 1: Only work under direct supervision of Licensed Plumber

Level 2: Limited ability to work without supervision -Drain cleaning etc...

Level 3: Full ability to work without supervision, but unable to own business.

Level 4: Do everything, own, work, permits etc...


----------



## plbgbiz

SlickRick said:


> ....with the required hrs. and endorsement...


:thumbsup:


----------



## nhmaster3015

Probably 10 years or so ago we did very little drain cleaning at all with the exception of the occasional tub or sink stoppage. Didn't even own a machine. Just had a couple of hand snakes. We farmed it all out to Mr. Rooter. Mr. Rooter would naturally blow through lines and such and either find broken clean outs, traps and fittings or break them in the normal course of rodding 75 year old pipes. Mr. Rooter is not licensed and neither are any of his workers. Still, when they broke stuff or found broken stuff they would fix it themselves rather than call us back in which is what they should have done if for no other reason than giving us the same courtesy we gave them so........ F&#K Mr. Rooter and the horse he rode in on. We bought around 20 thousand worth of drain equipment including sectional machines and jetters and dedicated two service trucks and two LICENSED plumbers to man them. That part of the business has since been very profitable and in the lean times has in fact kept us from having to lay people off. Should drain cleaners be licensed? I think absolutely if only because we all know that in the course of doing the job you are guaranteed to run into plumbing repair work on a daily basis.


----------



## Epox

SlickRick said:


> IMO, it is not a wise decision to let anyone that is not backed by a skilled plumber to stick something as powerful as one of these machines in a line unless they have the capability to resolve any issues that might arise.


 Volumes were spoken here. The percentages of drain cleaning that ends up requiring repair work is very high.


----------



## saysflushable

mpsllc said:


> Volumes were spoken here. The percentages of drain cleaning that ends up requiring repair work is very high.


 I have noticed the guys that have the backhoes and excavators seem to have a high percentage of repair work that needs to be done after trying to clean a drain.

Funny I don't seem to have the same trouble. neither does the only drain cleaner I will let clean a drain if I can't get to it. he is not a plumber. But i know if I send him to one of my customers they will be getting the best drain cleaner around. Not a licenced 1/2 blade wonder that wants to fire the backhoe up for a couple grand.

Anyhow I guess in some states drain cleaning is plumbing and some it isn't. 

Heck I'm glad my fellow plumbers don't like it and don't do it.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Seems to be a lot of plumbers that don't

Don't do water pumps

Don't do water filtration

Don't do HVAC work

Don't clean drains

But mostly, don't have much to do three days a week :laughing:


----------



## ToUtahNow

saysflushable said:


> I have noticed the guys that have the backhoes and excavators seem to have a high percentage of repair work that needs to be done after trying to clean a drain.
> 
> Funny I don't seem to have the same trouble. neither does the only drain cleaner I will let clean a drain if I can't get to it. he is not a plumber. But i know if I send him to one of my customers they will be getting the best drain cleaner around. Not a licenced 1/2 blade wonder that wants to fire the backhoe up for a couple grand.
> 
> Anyhow I guess in some states drain cleaning is plumbing and some it isn't.
> 
> Heck I'm glad my fellow plumbers don't like it and don't do it.


I was talking to a couple of plumbing contractors the other day. We all have had our share of getting called out as the second company when others have said it can't be cleared. We generally clean them without too much trouble and tell the owners they have years left without much to worry about. One of the guys was trying to sell his trailer jetter to buy a new one. A rooter companie who called about the jetter explained they send these guys out to sell new sewers not clean them.

Mark


----------



## Will

I believe it should be under the plumbing license law that only LICENSED, INSURED, and BONDED _Plumbing Contractors or Master Plumbers _should be allowed to clean drains. I'm not going to go out of my way and prosecute drain cleaners that aren't licensed, but I wish the state board would crack down on them and fine them.

If a drain cleaning only company wants to have a sewer and drain cleaning company they should have taking the time and effort that us licensed plumbers have done to get our certificate. It's that simple, do your time, learn stuff along the way, study the code, and pass your state tests. If you haven't done that, then imo you have no right to clean drains. 

If I had it my way all sewer calls south of I40 would go to me and all calls north of I40 would go to plbgbiz. To quote nhmaster3015 "F&#K Mr. Rooter" :laughing:


----------



## SlickRick

Back when pooter rooter came to our area, it went over like a lead balloon, now it is pooter rooter plumbing.


----------



## plbgbiz

Will said:


> ...If I had it my way all sewer calls south of I40 would go to me and all calls north of I40 would go to plbgbiz.


Sounds good to me Will but then if MzBiz's sink stops up, she'll have to call you to clean it out. :laughing:


----------



## Will

I think we could work something out. I could clear the lav drain for free, but I won't warranty the free cleaning if there was abuse to the sewer:laughing:


----------



## DesertOkie

Will said:


> I believe it should be under the plumbing license law that only LICENSED, INSURED, and BONDED _Plumbing Contractors or Master Plumbers _should be allowed to clean drains. I'm not going to go out of my way and prosecute drain cleaners that aren't licensed, but I wish the state board would crack down on them and fine them.
> 
> If a drain cleaning only company wants to have a sewer and drain cleaning company they should have taking the time and effort that us licensed plumbers have done to get our certificate. It's that simple, do your time, learn stuff along the way, study the code, and pass your state tests. If you haven't done that, then imo you have no right to clean drains.
> 
> If I had it my way all sewer calls south of I40 would go to me and all calls north of I40 would go to plbgbiz. To quote nhmaster3015 "F&#K Mr. Rooter" :laughing:


Please send anything you get east of Tulsa to me. You might even want to start advertising in our yellow book:laughing:


----------



## plbgbiz

DesertOkie said:


> Please send anything you get east of Tulsa to me...


I'm good with it if Will is. All Tulsa (and attached suburbs) drain calls go to DesertOkie. All those in favor say AYE.


----------



## Will

How about anything east of the indian nation turnpike and 75 goes to you? 

I acutely have 3 jobs in Tulsa coming up in the next few months. Not looking forward to the drive....

BTW, yellowbook is a waste of money...


----------



## DesertOkie

Will said:


> How about anything east of the indian nation turnpike and 75 goes to you?
> 
> I acutely have 3 jobs in Tulsa coming up in the next few months. Not looking forward to the drive....
> 
> BTW, yellowbook is a waste of money...



I'm down with you taking all of Tulsa. It's an hour away, and pretty populated with plumbers who advertise heavy. I'll take Wagoner and East:laughing:


----------



## 130 PLUMBER

Hell No!!!

Per City of Chicago,

A licensed Drainlayer who is *not *a licensed Plumbing Contractor may apply for an underground sewer permit for work that involves *only tile *and/or *concrete pipe*.

CITY OF CHICAGO
Department of Water Management​

*DRAINLAYER’S LICENSE CLASSIFICATIONS*
​​:

*During 2002, the Department of Water Management implemented a DRAINLAYER’S TRAINING PROGRAM*
*in conjunction with licensing. This program will be offered by City Colleges of Chicago in 2005 again. Successful*
*completion of this program, including passing both a written and practical exam is required in order to obtain*
*a drainlayer’s license from the City of Chicago for 2005. All current license holders should have completed this*
*program from January 9, 2004 through November 19, 2004. If not, please see the 2005 Program Schedule*
*attached.*
*Work included under an “A” drainlayers license*
_New building construction, sewer main construction, or sewer and sewer related activity is done. All license_
_requirements are needed including C.D.O.T. license, _​

​​_*practical and written test every five years*._

New construction on private property
New construction in the public way
Single family residences
Development of townhouses - condominiums - multiple family residences
Also, all items included under a type “B” and “C” license​​*Work included under a “B” drainlayers license*
_Repairs and construction on existing buildings only, or sewer and sewer related activity is done. No new building_
_construction or new sewer main construction activity is done. Otherwise, all license requirements are needed_
_including _​

​​_*practical and written test every five years *except C.D.O.T. permit needed only as applicable._

Repairs - Repair extensions
Repair or adjustment of a sewer structure in public way or private property
Flood controls, overhead conversions, sump and drain tile pipe
Flood control repair
Sump pump without overhead conversion/drain tile pipe
Stubs permits
Power rodding
Inspection manhole
Paving
Also, all items included under a type “C” license​​*Work included under a “C” drainlayers license*
_Only sewer and sewer related activity is done. No building construction or sewer main construction activity is_
_done. Requirements on page 15 of the 2005 Permit and Fees Booklet are needed including _​

​​_*practical and written*_​
_*test every five years*_​​​

​​_._

Pumping permit for miscellaneous other
Pumping water out of basements
Seal permits
Televising, cleaning, lining and inspection of sewers
Installation of testing equipment
Please be advised a type “A” license encompasses the activity listed under a type “B” and a type “C” license, and
likewise a type “B” license encompasses the activity listed under a type “C” license. ​​​

​​*Drainlayers ARE NOT*​
*ALLOWED to make REPAIRS and/or ADDITIONS in the PUBLIC WAY unless it is for*​​​
*commercial/industrial or a building with more than four units.*​


----------



## Redwood

Here in Ct there is no license for drain cleaners. Most plumbing companies don't do drain cleaning, but some will send someone out with a 3/8" hand snake to an established customer to attempt to clear a main and when they can't, will dump clobber in the line, and charge about a hundred bucks for trying... :blink:

Fortunately our company does both plumbing and drain cleaning so we are ready to service the new customers they send to us.... :laughing:

Personally I'd rather drive around all day to customers with drains backing up than spend the day talking to customers that are "Thinking About" adding a second bathroom to their home or, remodeling an existing one...:whistling2:

I really enjoy the gotta do it now work much more than the bird in the bush....


----------



## plbgbiz

130 PLUMBER said:


> Hell No!!!


:thumbup:


----------



## drs

swedishcharm21 said:


> Just like the title said.
> 
> Do you consider drain cleaning or snaking actual plumbing?
> 
> I totally respect drain cleaners or rooters. But I do not consider them plumbers and I do not consider drain cleaning "Plumbing".
> 
> Some of my colleagues refer to them as "snake boys" or wanna be plumbers.
> 
> Thoughts??


 

By me, My lic says "Commercial, Industrial, residnetial , Septic License".

I have been called "Wannabe plumber" in the past and guess what? I don't "Wannabe Plumber". I like to clean drains and that seems to be a problem to some master plumbers who can just spend 100 g's on drain cleaning equiptment and use your Master plumber brain and you are in the drain Cleaning Business. Most Master Plumbers look down at drain Cleaning and That is fine with me BUT Don't call me a "Wanna BE Plumber". 


My License says that I can stop any emergency problem in any plumbing system BUT can Not make a repair in anything but a DWV system. I get calls all the time in the middle of the night from people telling me their Plumber does not pick up his phone and They have water pouring out of a broken pipe, can you come over? And yes I do.

Plumbers have other things to worry about besides drains. If you ever put in a boiler or HVAC, just the math alone to size the system will make your head spin. I don't want to make my head spin.


Do Plumbers get calls from clients in other states to do work their local Plumber or drain cleaners can't do? I do.


I will never call myself a "Plumber" but let others call me that. Calling me a Plumber or a "WannaBe plumber " is wrong i feel.


----------



## Mxz--700

drs said:


> By me, My lic says "Commercial, Industrial, residnetial , Septic License".
> 
> I have been called "Wannabe plumber" in the past and guess what? I don't "Wannabe Plumber". I like to clean drains and that seems to be a problem to some master plumbers who can just spend 100 g's on drain cleaning equiptment and use your Master plumber brain and you are in the drain Cleaning Business. Most Master Plumbers look down at drain Cleaning and That is fine with me BUT Don't call me a "Wanna BE Plumber".
> 
> 
> My License says that I can stop any emergency problem in any plumbing system BUT can Not make a repair in anything but a DWV system. I get calls all the time in the middle of the night from people telling me their Plumber does not pick up his phone and They have water pouring out of a broken pipe, can you come over? And yes I do.
> 
> Plumbers have other things to worry about besides drains. If you ever put in a boiler or HVAC, just the math alone to size the system will make your head spin. I don't want to make my head spin.
> 
> 
> Do Plumbers get calls from clients in other states to do work their local Plumber or drain cleaners can't do? I do.
> 
> 
> I will never call myself a "Plumber" but let others call me that. Calling me a Plumber or a "WannaBe plumber " is wrong i feel.


This IS a "plumbing" forum though.........:whistling2:


----------



## user2090

Mxz--700 said:


> This IS a "plumbing" forum though.........:whistling2:


No, it's a forum for plumbing professionals. Did you miss the sign on the door?


----------



## Mxz--700

Indie said:


> No, it's a forum for plumbing professionals. Did you miss the sign on the door?


Right:thumbsup:


----------



## SewerRat

Please refer to my intro to decide if I qualify as a "plumbing professional" and feel free to kick me off the board if necessary.

I hold every license Idaho requires to install any kind of septic system, and I hold a "specialty plumbing" license which allows me to do, among other things, outdoor plumbing, such as sewers and water lines. The reason we do drain cleaning, which is what ultimately led to my being invited to join this forum, is that about 30% of the time when we go to pump a backed up septic system the main is still clogged after we pump the tank. We had a lot of demand for clearing sewer blockages. One thing led to another and now we pretty much try to handle any drain cleaning. Before we ever bought our first snake I asked the state inspector what I needed for a license and he said in Idaho no license is required. I then asked what about pulling a W/C or a trap, he said there are provisions for drain cleaners to pull traps to gain access as long as no modifications are done, and on the toilet issue he said drain cleaners and flooring guys can pull a toilet legally. We DO NOT, however, make repairs to any plumbing inside a building. We have absolutely no desire to pursue that sort of work. We have a super relationship with a number of licensed plumbers who hire us to do their drain cleaing, jetting, camera work, and septic work, and we hire them back for any plumbing work we need done indoors. For instance, this week I had 3 septic/sewer install jobs where I hired or will hire a plumber to repipe the drains in houses where we needed the sewer to exit the building at a different location. We operate legally and we wish to remain so. We have an Idaho contractors license, liability insurance, workers comp, etc etc etc. 

Truthfully, I prefer not to clean indoor drains. I am ultra careful, probably too careful, and have never damaged anything with the exception of blowing out a rusted trap on an old trailer (I called a plumber to fix it). I feel comfortable that I understand DWV systems, although I cannot quote code like you guys can. And, interestingly enough, I have come in behind quite a few licensed plumbers and have cleaned lines that they could not or did not clean or had misdiagnosed. We have a new guy in town, licensed plumber, did new construction all his life and now got the bright inspiration to start doing service. The guy bought one snake, a hand carry 1/2" General Mini Rooter, and he's going around "cleaning" sewers. I have been called to backups and when I get done I learn that he was there yesterday and poked a hole in the blockage. I hired a good friend yesterday to reroute a sewer, my dad has used him in new construction for years and he's a good plumber who does clean, quality work, but he was obviously very uncomfortable working on old existing lines. Wasn't sure how to hook the new sewer to the old cast iron. I had to tell him how it is normally done. 

I feel that plumbers and drain cleaners can work together very nicely without stepping on each others toes. If every plumber had a camera, jetters, every size of cable machine, did smoke testing, etc, they would all have a ton of overhead and there would be no money in it because of competition. As it is my licensed plumber friends know that they can refer me and I WILL do a good job, and they also know that I will try to keep a few jobs coming their way as well. They also know that I have a strong moral line that I will not cross, if they give me a job I will not sell our company to that customer, I tell customers to talk to their plumber. In a lot of cases, I only offer the service, and I let the plumber who hired me look over my shoulder and make the decisions for himself (camera inspections, smoke tests). If they didn't have our company to rely on many of them would have to refer work to their competitors. In a hungry world where every customer counts, how many of you non-service guys want to give work to your competition? 

I understand septic systems and am licensed to install and repair them. They are my _forte._ From my perspective it makes me mad when a journeyman plumber feeds someone a line of bull about there septic system because he thinks he knows it all and ends up costing a homeowner thousands of unnecessary dollars. There are different skill sets within the realm of plumbing and we need to respect each other and our/their licensing accordingly.


----------



## plbgbiz

SewerRat said:


> ....There are different skill sets within the realm of plumbing and we need to respect each other and our/their licensing accordingly.


What he said. ^^^^

When the AHJ has provided credentials based on proven knowledge and experience, a person working in any single part of this greatest trade on Earth is a man to be respected.

I wouldn't be qualified to buy lunch for some of you guys hanging pipe on big commercial or industrial construction. And I am probably not any more qualified to properly install a leach field. Does that make me a non-Plumbing Professional? I sure hope not.

The new construction Plumber that has lost work and grabs a snake and a CL ad, Is he a Plumber? Well sure he is, just not a Service Plumber and Not a Drain Maintenance Plumber. However, a case could be made that he is an idiot. :laughing:

SewerRat may not be doing the type of service work I do but if has credentials proving his knowledge and experience, then he is every bit as much of a Professional Plumber as I am.


----------



## Will

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Septic guy is responsible for the sewer line before the tank. In other words the Plumber stubs the building drain out and the septic guy take it from there. 

In my mind a Septic guy is qualified to clean drains/sewers, atleast in rural areas. I respect guys that do septic system installs. Big difference in my mind between a licensed septic installer than a hack. Not even in the same league.

Becoming certified for septic installs in a goal for me. It is a area of my business that I want to expand in. Your most diffidently not a hack Kendall, you have proved that with your certifications. All good from my view, keep snaking those drains. :thumbsup:


----------



## drs

Mxz--700 said:


> This IS a "plumbing" forum though.........:whistling2:


 

Yes, then what should I call myself ? What do I do to pay the bills?

Do you call Employees who work under a Master plumber a Plumber?


----------



## drs

Indie said:


> No, it's a forum for plumbing professionals. Did you miss the sign on the door?


 
So am I not wanted by here then? is it a problem that a guy who cleans drains is here?


----------



## Will

drs said:


> So am I not wanted by here then? is it a problem that a guy who cleans drains is here?



According to the forum rules your not wanted. According to me and most people on this forum as long as your not out there moonlighting, under cutting plumbers, and being a hack then they probably don't realy care. 

NOt sure the regulations up there in NY, but you wouldn't be legal here in Oklahoma if your not licensed.


----------



## Airgap

drs said:


> So am I not wanted by here then? is it a problem that a guy who cleans drains is here?


Drain cleaning is part of maintaining a plumbing system....

Therefore drain cleaners are "Plumbing Professionals", as it says at the top of the page....

I hope this answers your question....


----------



## plbgbiz

drs said:


> So am I not wanted by here then? is it a problem that a guy who cleans drains is here?


If you are operating within the accepted interpretation and enforcement of the laws in your area then who are we to say you are not a Plumbing Professional?

We may be approaching the dead horse stage of this topic. The original question of whether or not Drain Maintenance is a Plumbing task has been answered by code definition for who knows how long. You may not be a Licensed Plumber but you are plumbing.

So again, if you are meeting your AHJ's interpretation of licensing requirements then so be it. If you are not required to prove your knowledge and experience to receive credentials, then I think that is wrong according to most licensing laws and code interpretations but it doesn't necessarily mean you are not a Plumbing Professional.

Not all Plumbing Professionals are Licensed Plumbers. There are also other contributors to the PZ that are not Licensed Plumbers. They too have a voice as Plumbing Professionals as they are actively working in some relevant capacity in the Plumbing Trade.

God might well have created all Plumbing Professionals equal, but we are clearly not all the same.


----------



## plbgbiz

drs said:


> Yes, then what should I call myself ? What do I do to pay the bills?
> 
> Do you call Employees who work under a Master plumber a Plumber?


In Oklahoma, the designation of "Plumber" is only available to persons who have passed the Journeyman's or Contractor's exam.

A non-licensed person working for a Master (or Contractor in Oklahoma) is considered either a helper or an Apprentice regardless of experience or know-how. A Licensed Plumber is required to on the job site at all times. Without a license, he is not allowed to perform Plumbing (even Drain Maintenance) without direct supervision.

In the real world though, it happens every day. Most multi-truck companies here fill van seats with whoever (or whatever) they can find. The City of OKC and the State's Construction Industries Board is doing a much better job of hammering them when they can catch them. :thumbsup:

What does your AHJ call you?


----------



## plbgbiz

drs said:


> So am I not wanted by here then? is it a problem that a guy who cleans drains is here?


I absolutely think you are wanted here. :yes:


----------



## SewerRat

plbgbiz said:


> SewerRat may not be doing the type of service work I do but if has credentials proving his knowledge and experience, then he is every bit as much of a Professional Plumber as I am.





Will said:


> Your most diffidently not a hack Kendall, you have proved that with your certifications. All good from my view, keep snaking those drains. :thumbsup:


Thanks for the vote of support, guys. I have always taken a back seat on this board because I didn't want to say the wrong thing and get the boot :laughing:.

I spend a lot of time lurking here to learn all I can from you guys that will hopefully make me even better at the services I perform.


----------



## DesertOkie

I bet in a lot of states you can use the experience you have to apply for a journeyman lic. If some people don't want you here F them. Like I have said before we considered guys who did new home construction hacks. We had to train them like they were totally new to plumbing. I must admit though they did us ABS glue like a pro.


----------



## Mxz--700

drs said:


> Yes, then what should I call myself ? What do I do to pay the bills?
> 
> Do you call Employees who work under a Master plumber a Plumber?


Nah, we call em Journeymen and they must also be licensed here as well as helpers. We pay 500 each master plumber in each county in my parts and I believe 200 for every journeyman and 25 for helper registration. I want to make sure everyone who calls themselves plumbers around here pay up too. And they are enforcing the he'll out of it in southern ny. Thank God.


----------



## grandpa

Is someone who changes a bibb washer on a hose bibb a plumber?
Is someone who drops some abs in a trench and maybe gets it level, is that a plumber?
Is someone who can solder copper but has no idea what a pressure balance valve looks like, is he a plumber?
Is someone who drops a new flapper on a toilet a plumber?

Where do you draw the line?


----------



## Will

grandpa said:


> Is someone who changes a bibb washer on a hose bibb a plumber?
> Is someone who drops some abs in a trench and maybe gets it level, is that a plumber?
> Is someone who can solder copper but has no idea what a pressure balance valve looks like, is he a plumber?
> Is someone who drops a new flapper on a toilet a plumber?
> 
> Where do you draw the line?


They may not be a plumber, but they sure are _doing plumbing. _


----------



## drs

:thumbsup:

What does your AHJ call you?[/QUOTE]


We have the Department of Consumer affairs who runs the Licence department for the county. I have to swing by there anyway, and I will just ask them.


----------



## drs

Mxz--700 said:


> Nah, we call em Journeymen and they must also be licensed here as well as helpers. We pay 500 each master plumber in each county in my parts and I believe 200 for every journeyman and 25 for helper registration. I want to make sure everyone who calls themselves plumbers around here pay up too. And they are enforcing the he'll out of it in southern ny. Thank God.


 
I am on the island and we pay 400.00 for 2 years to hold the licence is a area.

So drain cleaners have to be licenced by you? What is it called if it's not a Master Plumber's Licence?


----------



## Mxz--700

drs said:


> I am on the island and we pay 400.00 for 2 years to hold the licence is a area.
> 
> So drain cleaners have to be licenced by you? What is it called if it's not a Master Plumber's Licence?


Drain cleaners must hold a plumbing license here because they are working on the sanitary drains of a plumbing system. They are not licensed by me but can work under my license as a Journeyman if they pass the test and pay $200 every year. Question 2 I answered in prev posts. We have Master who can pull permits and do all plumbing and own company, and u must show W2 forms for 9 years as an apprentice before even sitting for test. Then u have journeyman who can work as a mechanic under me and cannot pull permits or open business. Then u have apprentice who u simply must register as such when he is hired , basically a helper. Each of these titles comes with a county photo ID which is asked for by code enforcers who are really stepping up to the plate here and fining the he'll out of the ones who steal from the legitimate responsible plumbers.


----------



## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

Mxz--700 said:


> Drain cleaners must hold a plumbing license here because they are working on the sanitary drains of a plumbing system. They are not licensed by me but can work under my license as a Journeyman if they pass the test and pay $200 every year. Question 2 I answered in prev posts. We have Master who can pull permits and do all plumbing and own company, and u must show W2 forms for 9 years as an apprentice before even sitting for test. Then u have journeyman who can work as a mechanic under me and cannot pull permits or open business. Then u have apprentice who u simply must register as such when he is hired , basically a helper. Each of these titles comes with a county photo ID which is asked for by code enforcers who are really stepping up to the plate here and fining the he'll out of the ones who steal from the legitimate responsible plumbers.


I apologize for my ignorance does your license qualify you to perform annual low pressure boiler test reports?


----------



## Mxz--700

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> I apologize for my ignorance does your license qualify you to perform annual low pressure boiler test reports?


No nor do I need to . But I do check back flow preventers and can run municipal water filtration plants . So why do u ask ol wise one. Ifi am ever required to though I will and excel at it though, I assure you. I do low pressure tests on gas mains all the time. Kinda silly wisecracks question for such a brainless operation. Take a test to become a NYS A water plant operator ( and pass) then bust my balls.:laughing:


----------



## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

Mxz--700 said:


> No nor do I need to . But I do check back flow preventers and can run municipal water filtration plants . So why do u ask ol wise one. Ifi am ever required to though I will and excel at it though, I assure you. I do low pressure tests on gas mains all the time. Kinda silly wisecracks question for such a brainless operation. Take a test to become a NYS A water plant operator ( and pass) then bust my balls.:laughing:


Calm down buddy I was just curious, part of the city exam includes nys low pressure boiler and was curious if you're county license did the same


----------



## Lmp

Mxz--700 said:


> No nor do I need to . But I do check back flow preventers and can run municipal water filtration plants . So why do u ask ol wise one. Ifi am ever required to though I will and excel at it though, I assure you. I do low pressure tests on gas mains all the time. Kinda silly wisecracks question for such a brainless operation. Take a test to become a NYS A water plant operator ( and pass) then bust my balls.:laughing:


What county in ny do you have a license?


----------



## incarnatopnh

The NYS A water treatment license test it no joke! Wastewater is even worse.


----------



## Ross

I consider a stopped up drain a plumbing problem. When the customer says the bathroom is flooding, who do you send?A drain man a repair man or a plumber that's gonna handle business.


----------



## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

incarnatopnh said:


> The NYS A water treatment license test it no joke! Wastewater is even worse.


 http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...wbntBQ&usg=AFQjCNHi2pH1hK1NWo0RMi3iW8mwvTY_iw


----------



## 130 PLUMBER

incarnatopnh said:


> The NYS A water treatment license test it no joke! Wastewater is even worse.


 ...


----------



## Will

I go back and read this thread from time to time and I'm having a hard telling this thread is any different from threads titled "Putty or Silicone?" "T&M or Flat Rate?" or even "Blonde or Brunette". 

Where is the judge? This case is closed.....


----------



## 130 PLUMBER

Ross said:


> I consider a stopped up drain a plumbing problem. When the customer says the bathroom is flooding, who do you send?A drain man a repair man or a plumber that's gonna handle business.


 
make your self useful by posting a introduction http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/why-post-intro-11368/


----------



## incarnatopnh

I posted an intro a long time ago...


----------



## 130 PLUMBER

incarnatopnh said:


> I posted an intro a long time ago...


 
That wasn't for you it was for the *Ross* man:thumbsup:


----------



## drs

Went down and talked with my Local Consumer Afrairs office and asked them point blank when I showed them My license : What do you call me?

They said I am in the Plumbing area of the license but under a sub cat called for short, a Liquid waste License, and it is in the plumbing field. If a customer called looking to check my license and said I was a plumber, I would not be under that Licence cat, But under the Liquid waste Cat part of that License, but I am in the same trade or field.


----------



## SewerRatz

Just something from a 2004 Chicago sewer and drain permit book. Its the same in the 2011 book.


----------



## 130 PLUMBER

Here's a copy of my Drainlayer License. If you read it very careful you would notice that the word Plumber isn't mention!!!


----------



## 130 PLUMBER

drs said:


> Went down and talked with my Local Consumer Afrairs office and asked them point blank when I showed them My license : What do you call me?
> 
> They said I am in the Plumbing area of the license but under a sub cat called for short, a Liquid waste License, and it is in the plumbing field. If a customer called looking to check my license and said I was a plumber, I would not be under that Licence cat, But under the Liquid waste Cat part of that License, but I am in the same trade or field.


 
Better yet why don't you call yourself what your license calls you:yes::yes:


----------



## 130 PLUMBER

SewerRatz said:


> Just something from a 2004 Chicago sewer and drain permit book. Its the same in the 2011 book.


Yep, like i mention before,


*DRAINLAYER’S LICENSE CLASSIFICATIONS*


*Work included under an “A” drainlayers license*

_New building construction, sewer main construction, or sewer and sewer related activity is done. All license_
_requirements are needed including C.D.O.T. license, _​

_*practical and written test every five years*._

New construction on private property​ 
New construction in the public way​ 
Single family residences​ 
Development of townhouses - condominiums - multiple family residences​

Also, all items included under a type “B” and “C” license​ 
*Work included under a “B” drainlayers license*

_Repairs and construction on existing buildings only, or sewer and sewer related activity is done. No new building_​ 
_construction or new sewer main construction activity is done. Otherwise, all license requirements are needed_​ 
_including _​ 
_*practical and written test every five years *except C.D.O.T. permit needed only as applicable._

Repairs - Repair extensions​ 
Repair or adjustment of a sewer structure in public way or private property​ 
Flood controls, overhead conversions, sump and drain tile pipe​ 
Flood control repair​

Sump pump without overhead conversion/drain tile pipe​ 
Stubs permits

Power rodding
Inspection manhole
Paving
Also, all items included under a type “C” license​

*Work included under a “C” drainlayers license*

_Only sewer and sewer related activity is done. No building construction or sewer main construction activity is_​ 
_done. Requirements on page 15 of the 2005 Permit and Fees Booklet are needed including _​ 

Pumping permit for miscellaneous other

Pumping water out of basements​ 
Seal permits​ 
Televising, cleaning, lining and inspection of sewers​

Installation of testing equipment​ 
Please be advised a type “A” license encompasses the activity listed under a type “B” and a type “C” license, and

likewise a type “B” license encompasses the activity listed under a type “C” license. ​


----------



## drs

130 PLUMBER said:


> Better yet why don't you call yourself what your license calls you:yes::yes:


I do !
:laughing:


----------



## Mxz--700

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> Calm down buddy I was just curious, part of the city exam includes nys low pressure boiler and was curious if you're county license did the same


 Sorry man here is my public apology ,my mistake, i was sure you were giving me **** when you said forgive my ignorance lol, i can sure be an idiot sometimes and can admit it too.... thought you were busting my balls cause im by the book with licenses. A virtual beer for you


----------



## Mxz--700

Lmp said:


> What county in ny do you have a license?


 Westchester and putnam


----------



## incarnatopnh

Mxz--700 said:


> Westchester and putnam


See that's why you make so much money. Damn down- staters! Lol. Little different upstate. The handy hacks ruin our profits up here.


----------



## Lmp

Mxz--700 said:


> Westchester and putnam


Im licensed in NYC and Westchester got all my papers ready to go for Putnam just haven't had Time to go submit them. To tell you the truth the only reason I'm going for my putnam license is to shut my wife up. Lol! She thinks since we live in Putnam I'm gonna start working up here instead of going to the city everyday


----------



## Mxz--700

incarnatopnh said:


> See that's why you make so much money. Damn down- staters! Lol. Little different upstate. The handy hacks ruin our profits up here.


Lol, yeah I live in Dutchess and would never even think of working here. No license necessary. I remember doing the plumbing in lake George in a log home for my families vacation house and had to do an island sink vent and the inspector had no idea what he was looking at. Then he told me I did all my venting wrong because I vented every fixture he said I " double vented"everything and didn't have to vent anything if it was within 10 feet of the stack?? Ummm ok. Lol. Where u from ?


----------



## Mxz--700

Lmp said:


> Im licensed in NYC and Westchester got all my papers ready to go for Putnam just haven't had Time to go submit them. To tell you the truth the only reason I'm going for my putnam license is to shut my wife up. Lol! She thinks since we live in Putnam I'm gonna start working up here instead of going to the city everyday


Be nice not to travel!


----------



## Lmp

Almost all my work is in NYC and plus I'm a Bronx guy so I get the best of both worlds calm and peaceful Mahopac and far pace city. Lol


----------



## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

Mxz--700 said:


> Sorry man here is my public apology ,my mistake, i was sure you were giving me **** when you said forgive my ignorance lol, i can sure be an idiot sometimes and can admit it too.... thought you were busting my balls cause im by the book with licenses. A virtual beer for you


No problem, we all get carried away sometimes. 

Thanks


----------



## torontoplumber

Drain guys make more money than plumbers its for shure. 

Toronto plumber


----------



## johnlewismcleod

swedishcharm21 said:


> Just like the title said.
> 
> Do you consider drain cleaning or snaking actual plumbing?
> 
> I totally respect drain cleaners or rooters. But I do not consider them plumbers and I do not consider drain cleaning "Plumbing".
> 
> Some of my colleagues refer to them as "snake boys" or wanna be plumbers.
> 
> Thoughts??


Without a concrete foundation of plumbing knowledge any drain cleaner would be hopelessly inept. I could give a recent and very poignant example of why this is true, but the story is a bit long and it might get back to my shop, heh


----------



## nhmaster3015

well let's see....in NH and Maine you don't need a plumbing license to clean drains so......NO!

It's like asking if the pimple faced pot smoker that works at the Jiffy Lube is a mechanic


----------



## Plumb Bob

nhmaster3015 said:


> well let's see....in NH and Maine you don't need a plumbing license to clean drains so......NO!
> 
> It's like asking if the pimple faced pot smoker that works at the Jiffy Lube is a mechanic


Good example 

You definitely do not want those guys to touch your vehicle, my son worked at one of those places for a very short while, know one had a clue what they are doing.

It doesn't mean you have plumbing knowledge just cause you can clear a drain .


----------



## johnlewismcleod

I don't see the point in slamming drain plumbers here. 

Sure, some aren't well versed in the full scope of the trade, but you could say that about many parts of the trade if/when they become specialized.

The best drain plumbers know how piping systems are put together, those that don't are a menace to the trade and the public.

I'd say leave it at that *shrugs*


----------



## nhmaster3015

johnlewismcleod said:


> I don't see the point in slamming drain plumbers here.
> 
> Sure, some aren't well versed in the full scope of the trade, but you could say that about many parts of the trade.
> 
> The best drain plumbers know how piping systems are put together, those that don't are a menace to the trade and the public.
> 
> I'd say leave it at that *shrugs*



The short list - feel free to add and revise :thumbup:

If you can't rough in a house
If you can't lead a joint
If you can't solder and braze
If you can't size DFU and SFU
If you can't troubleshoot and install fixtures and faucets
If you can't install a water heater
If you can't thread and install pipe
If you can't understand what the F wet venting is about :laughing:
And if you ain't got the ticket in your wallet......

Then you ain't a plumber, simple as that!

You know what a drain cleaner is? It's a guy that is too damn lazy to get a plumbing license


----------



## PinkPlumber

GREENPLUM said:


> Plumbers must have a license before they start a legit biz.
> 
> Drain Cleaners dont need a license, they can start a legit biz without one.
> 
> Plumbers should also make more money...


In my area, any work involving an open line or trap requires a license....handymen aren't even supposed to install toilets....


----------



## johnlewismcleod

I didn't know handyhaks were allowed to work on drains in Maine :blink:

That's just wrong and should be changed for the welfare of the public. 

But rather than slap our licensed drain specialists around, it might be better to vent at your legislators up there. 

If your argument is carried to it's logical conclusion, then drain specialist plumbers aren't plumbers at all and_ shouldn't_ need a license. 

That would be a _significant erosion_ of our craft in the other states.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Why do you call them "drain specialist plumbers"? It does not get much simpler than if you don't have a plumbing license, you ain't a plumber.
They are not plumbers of any kind so quit adding the word. They may be drain specialists but they are NOT plumbers! Should we call the guy that pumps septic tanks out a tank specialist plumber? :laughing:

Some states license "drain cleaners" though god only knows why. I suspect for the same reason they license barbers and massage therapists....for the money. Cleaning drains ain't plumbing or for that matter anything close to plumbing. It's like calling the guys at the car wash mechanics.


----------



## johnlewismcleod

K...I'm trying to understand why you want to carve sewer work off of our trade. 

Are you trying to put together a shop full of minimum wage handyhaks and go into the drain clearing business?



Here in Texas (and in most states from what I understand) servicing drains is part of PLUMBING SERVICE WORK and_ *must be*_ done by licensed plumbers. 

I'm real sorry if Maine and New Hampshire screwed up and made it unlicensed work, but I for one would like to see it remain the purview of licensed plumbers for the welfare of the public and of our trade.


----------



## user2090

nhmaster3015 said:


> Why do you call them "drain specialist plumbers"? It does not get much simpler than if you don't have a plumbing license, you ain't a plumber.
> They are not plumbers of any kind so quit adding the word. They may be drain specialists but they are NOT plumbers! Should we call the guy that pumps septic tanks out a tank specialist plumber? :laughing:
> 
> Some states license "drain cleaners" though god only knows why. I suspect for the same reason they license barbers and massage therapists....for the money. Cleaning drains ain't plumbing or for that matter anything close to plumbing. It's like calling the guys at the car wash mechanics.


Couldn't agree more. Being appropriately licensed or certified is kind of a given. 

There should be no shame or embarrassment in whatever title you have in life. We are the ones who hold ourselves back from growing into what we want to be.


----------



## PinkPlumber

nhmaster3015 said:


> Why do you call them "drain specialist plumbers"? It does not get much simpler than if you don't have a plumbing license, you ain't a plumber.
> They are not plumbers of any kind so quit adding the word. They may be drain specialists but they are NOT plumbers! Should we call the guy that pumps septic tanks out a tank specialist plumber? :laughing:
> 
> Some states license "drain cleaners" though god only knows why. I suspect for the same reason they license barbers and massage therapists....for the money. Cleaning drains ain't plumbing or for that matter anything close to plumbing. It's like calling the guys at the car wash mechanics.



I think Rotor-Rooter calls them "Drain Technicians".....that place scares the crap outta me.....have you ever paid attention to some of these guys? I wouldn't let them wash my truck....do they pay crappy or something??


----------



## nhmaster3015

johnlewismcleod said:


> K...I'm trying to understand why you want to carve sewer work off of our trade.
> 
> Are you trying to put together a shop full of minimum wage handyhaks and go into the drain clearing business?
> 
> 
> 
> Here in Texas (and in most states from what I understand) servicing drains is part of PLUMBING SERVICE WORK and_ *must be*_ done by licensed plumbers.
> 
> I'm real sorry if Maine and New Hampshire screwed up and made it unlicensed work, but I for one would like to see it remain the purview of licensed plumbers for the welfare of the public and of our trade.


I think we got wires crossed there so my apologies. Be aware that I am a miserable old crotchety S.O.B. with a touch of Alzheimers

I agree with you that there should not be such a thing as a drain cleaners license. Drain cleaning should be done by licensed plumbers and yes, drain cleaning is a big part of our business but all my guys are licensed plumbers. I'm ranting about the unlicensed companies being able to clean drains


----------



## Tommy plumber

http://www.myfloridalicense.com/dbpr/pro/cilb/documents/cilb_declaratory_statements.pdf




Recently Florida issued a declaratory statement stating that a plumbing license is needed in order for someone to clean drains.


----------



## johnlewismcleod

nhmaster3015 said:


> I think we got wires crossed there so my apologies. Be aware that I am a miserable old crotchety S.O.B. with a touch of Alzheimers
> 
> I agree with you that there should not be such a thing as a drain cleaners license. Drain cleaning should be done by licensed plumbers and yes, drain cleaning is a big part of our business but all my guys are licensed plumbers. I'm ranting about the unlicensed companies being able to clean drains


Ahhhh!...all clear then, brother


----------



## deerslayer

If we plumbers don't take care and covet drain cleaning and service work then it won't be long and that will be another part of our job that is gone to lower wages forever!
Not sure about other states but here in Indiana and Ohio it doesn't require a plumbers license for any water mains and sewers on public property as they are now part of the heavy highway provisions that disregard the need for a plumbing license. I am told by the old timers that the plumbers used to have all that work and screwed up by letting others do it.


----------



## Don The Plumber

nhmaster3015 said:


> Why do you call them "drain specialist plumbers"? It does not get much simpler than if you don't have a plumbing license, you ain't a plumber.
> They are not plumbers of any kind so quit adding the word. They may be drain specialists but they are NOT plumbers! Should we call the guy that pumps septic tanks out a tank specialist plumber? :laughing:
> 
> Some states license "drain cleaners" though god only knows why. I suspect for the same reason they license barbers and massage therapists....for the money. Cleaning drains ain't plumbing or for that matter anything close to plumbing. It's like calling the guys at the car wash mechanics.


What about Joe the plumber? He had no license, & everyone called him, Joe the plumber. I pulled a sliver out of my hand today, so you can call me Dr. Don.


----------



## Mississippiplum

I fixed a pair of shoes today, so does that make me a professional shoe repair man? :laughing:

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


----------



## rjbphd

Mississippiplum said:


> A fixed a pair of shoes today, so does that make me a professional shoe repair man? :laughing:
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


 With quack quack tape???


----------



## Mississippiplum

Naaaa, liquid electrical tape on 1 pair and some pipe insulation glue on the other pair.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


----------



## affordabledrain

here in Indiana things are totaly messed up. Thats all I will say. i will let the other guys from here go into great detail


----------



## SewerRat

nhmaster3015 said:


> The short list - feel free to add and revise :thumbup:
> You know what a drain cleaner is? It's a guy that is too damn lazy to get a plumbing license


If you can't rough in a house-I can't do that
If you can't lead a joint-that either
If you can't solder and braze-nope
If you can't size DFU and SFU-no way
If you can't troubleshoot and install fixtures and faucets-not what I do
If you can't install a water heater-got the mechanical aptitude, but I don't know code well enough, nor am I interested
If you can't thread and install pipe-that I can do....underground or outdoors
If you can't understand what the F wet venting is about :laughing:- basic knowledge is all
And if you ain't got the ticket in your wallet......-wallet is vacant

Then you ain't a plumber, simple as that!- Zaaackly!


----------



## PinkPlumber

ChrisConnor said:


> I've heard many a plumber say "I don't do drains", but these are new construction prima donnas that were applying for jobs in service when the housing market was down. I've always replied, "you don't do drains, then you don't work here, we do drains and sometimes there are a lot of them". At that point the interview is over.
> 
> *Getting wrapped up in a 3/4" cable has ended thoughts of drain cleaning for many plumbers.
> *
> 
> Been there , done that....still have the coveralls with the boob torn out...still have the boob, but she was mighty snarky after that.


----------



## affordabledrain

nhmaster3015 said:


> The short list - feel free to add and revise :thumbup:
> 
> If you can't rough in a house. I can't apprenticed for a commercial shop
> If you can't lead a joint They were only covered for seconds in my apprentice ship class
> If you can't solder and braze
> If you can't size DFU and SFU
> If you can't troubleshoot and install fixtures and faucets
> If you can't install a water heater
> If you can't thread and install pipe
> If you can't understand what the F wet venting is about :laughing:
> And if you ain't got the ticket in your wallet......
> 
> Then you ain't a plumber, simple as that!
> 
> You know what a drain cleaner is? It's a guy that is too damn lazy to get a plumbing license


 I disagree. There are way too many plumbers that will not handle drain cleaning needs. I know of several in my area that will not touch drains or sewers


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## affordabledrain

PinkPlumber said:


> ChrisConnor said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard many a plumber say "I don't do drains", but these are new construction prima donnas that were applying for jobs in service when the housing market was down. I've always replied, "you don't do drains, then you don't work here, we do drains and sometimes there are a lot of them". At that point the interview is over.
> 
> *Getting wrapped up in a 3/4" cable has ended thoughts of drain cleaning for many plumbers.
> *
> 
> Been there , done that....still have the coveralls with the boob torn out...still have the boob, but she was mighty snarky after that.
> 
> 
> 
> heck I will go there! Do you have that on video. :whistling2:
> 
> jk
Click to expand...


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## PinkPlumber

affordabledrain said:


> PinkPlumber said:
> 
> 
> 
> heck I will go there! Do you have that on video. :whistling2:
> 
> jk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was apprenticing at the time...the best part about it was watching the fear in my bosses eyes when he looked up and saw the cable hanging off my boob...then, watching him have to manhandle "things" to get it loose.....omg, never a funnier day.....he was so damn embarrassed....didn't hurt until the next day....but we kept on feeding cable....:thumbup:
Click to expand...


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## affordabledrain

PinkPlumber said:


> affordabledrain said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was apprenticing at the time...the best part about it was watching the fear in my bosses eyes when he looked up and saw the cable hanging off my boob...then, watching him have to manhandle "things" to get it loose.....omg, never a funnier day.....he was so damn embarrassed....didn't hurt until the next day....but we kept on feeding cable....:thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> ok I can relate. I had to help a female supervisor. At the machine Shop I worked for to get her shirt from out of the rolls on a cleaning line. I grab things that were not to be grabbed. But she was more embrassed when she was free than I was. :laughing:
Click to expand...


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## nhmaster3015

Don The Plumber said:


> What about Joe the plumber? He had no license, & everyone called him, Joe the plumber. I pulled a sliver out of my hand today, so you can call me Dr. Don.


Well, everyone but us. We bashed the living crap out of him here :laughing:


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## PinkPlumber

nhmaster3015 said:


> Well, everyone but us. We bashed the living crap out of him here :laughing:


I liked the interview they did with him way back, and asked him why he didn't have a license....and he said something like "I've been meaning to look into getting one".....wtf?
I love watching those undercover news videos they do on catching unlicensed plumbers, and hearing their excuses. Some of them actually drive pretty nice rigs...


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## Will

This thread was never about whether a drain cleaner was a plumber or not. It was asking if drain cleaning is "plumbing". It is. Simple as that!


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## PinkPlumber

Will said:


> This thread was never about whether a drain cleaner was a plumber or not. It was asking if drain cleaning is "plumbing". It is. Simple as that!



*taking my Barbie dolls and going home* :scooter:


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## pilot light

Drainage is with in the scope of our description, rooting and clearing obstructions too! Cameras are also big business and locates. We get pulled into everything!


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## gear junkie

swedishcharm21 said:


> Just like the title said.
> 
> Do you consider drain cleaning or snaking actual plumbing?
> 
> I totally respect drain cleaners or rooters. But I do not consider them plumbers and I do not consider drain cleaning "Plumbing".
> 
> Some of my colleagues refer to them as "snake boys" or wanna be plumbers.
> 
> Thoughts??


I consider drain cleaning to be maintance of a plumbing system but not actual plumbing.


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## nhmaster3015

Thanks Will

Ant's at a picnic :laughing:


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## Don The Plumber

PinkPlumber said:


> I liked the interview they did with him way back, and asked him why he didn't have a license....and he said something like "I've been meaning to look into getting one".....wtf?
> I love watching those undercover news videos they do on catching unlicensed plumbers, and hearing their excuses. Some of them actually drive pretty nice rigs...


In one of those interviews, the handyman, AKA Joe the Plumber, said he has had like 15yrs exp., but been too busy to get his license, & he actually knows so much, that he is going to bypass the Jman license thing, & get his Masters.:laughing: And the media buys all this hype crap.

First thing I would ask him, is how much were you &/or your boss charging all these massive amounts of customers, on all these massive amount of plumbing jobs you been doing, as a hanyman? You know, all that work you were doing so much of, that you had no time to get a license? Were you charginging plumbers wages, or handyman wages? Who pulled permits, for this massive amount of work you were doing?:whistling2:


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## socalplmr1

plbgbiz said:


> It most certainly is! Even though some do it without credentials, if it happens inside a pipe then it should be done by a licensed Professional Plumber.
> 
> Without knowledge and understanding of plumbing systems a "snake-boy" as you put it, is endangering someone's health and creating work for the rest of us.


Here in California...they are one in the same, most companies are combined, not many so called "seperate" drain cleaning companies left.
So in answering the question: Yes


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## grandpa

I would rephrase the question:

SHOULD MUTTS BE ALLOWED TO DO DRAIN CLEANING WORK, OR SHOULD THAT WORK REQUIRE A TRAINED AND LICENSED PLUMBER.

You can certainly argue that point, since drain cleaning frequently involves at a minimum, rebuilding a portion of the drain, say under the sink, and may also involve reconstructing broken or disturbed underground piping.


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## affordabledrain

grandpa said:


> I would rephrase the question:
> 
> _*SHOULD MUTTS BE ALLOWED TO DO DRAIN CLEANING WORK, OR SHOULD THAT WORK REQUIRE A TRAINED AND LICENSED PLUMBER*_.
> 
> You can certainly argue that point, since drain cleaning frequently involves at a minimum, rebuilding a portion of the drain, say under the sink, and may also involve reconstructing broken or disturbed underground piping.



This is going to be fun to read all the responses


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## socalplmr1

grandpa said:


> I would rephrase the question:
> 
> SHOULD MUTTS BE ALLOWED TO DO DRAIN CLEANING WORK, OR SHOULD THAT WORK REQUIRE A TRAINED AND LICENSED PLUMBER.


EASY answer then...YES...everyone that comes into contact with piping should be licensed.


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## drs

How about this if I am being called a "Mutt" when this "Mutt" has a License to clean drains.......

I was wondering all who employ people who are not Licensed in the trade, do you tell your customers you are sending over a handyman to fix your pipes?

Do you consider A/C work plumbing?

Howcome where you buy your products from, YOU are not DEMANDING THEYBE A LICENSED PLUMBER since they are taking apart pipes?

Suffolk County where I work has their own drain cleaning license, so i am licensed and still I am being called a MUTT for cleaning drains?


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## nhmaster3015

I don't know about mutt but if your license does not say master or journeyman plumber, you ain't a plumber. Which means that in your district, you can clean pipes, no more.

All our HVAV guys are licensed HVAC guys and quite a few are licensed plumbers too

All our guys that work gas piping are licensed gas technicians and all of them are licensed plumbers too'

All of our drain cleaners are licensed plumbers even though you don't have to be in NH.

Here's where the drain cleaner license becomes a problem. Drain cleaner guy goes in and runs his spade through rotted out galvy. The line needs to be replaced. Drain cleaner guy grabs a few feet of PVC and a couple of Fernco's and hacks them in. That would be plumbing and probably unpermitted plumbing at that and it happens all the time.


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## OldSchool

nhmaster3015 said:


> I don't know about mutt but if your license does not say master or journeyman plumber, you ain't a plumber. Which means that in your district, you can clean pipes, no more.
> 
> All our HVAV guys are licensed HVAC guys and quite a few are licensed plumbers too
> 
> All our guys that work gas piping are licensed gas technicians and all of them are licensed plumbers too'
> 
> All of our drain cleaners are licensed plumbers even though you don't have to be in NH.
> 
> Here's where the drain cleaner license becomes a problem. Drain cleaner guy goes in and runs his spade through rotted out galvy. The line needs to be replaced. Drain cleaner guy grabs a few feet of PVC and a couple of Fernco's and hacks them in. That would be plumbing and probably unpermitted plumbing at that and it happens all the time.


Wow... All those guys and no apprentices or helpers

So everybody is fully licensed?

Sent from my miniature laptop


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## Epox

Drain Cleaners not licensed to plumb are not supposed to so much as remove a lavatory trap. As per NMCID. Funny thing is they drive around with piping hanging out the ends of the trucks. Inspector knows they are plumbing but basically can't catch him. I think he could if he wanted but just says it isn't against the law to haul pipe around. At the same time he knows plumbing company's have unlicensed people in the field.


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## nhmaster3015

Nope, not apprentices now. The last of them got his ticket back in December. Might be time to hire though.

The reason we got into drain cleaning in the first place is because we used to refer it to the local Roto Hacks with the understanding that if plumbing needed to be done they would hand it back to us which, being the dirt bags they are, they never did so.........F them. Now there is only one Roto Hack company in the area and it's on the way out :laughing:


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## Mississippiplum

nhmaster3015 said:


> Nope, not apprentices now. The last of them got his ticket back in December. Might be time to hire though.
> 
> The reason we got into drain cleaning in the first place is because we used to refer it to the local Roto Hacks with the understanding that if plumbing needed to be done they would hand it back to us which, being the dirt bags they are, they never did so.........F them. Now there is only one Roto Hack company in the area and it's on the way out :laughing:


You can't trust them roto-rooter hacks, ya just can't

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## Titan Plumbing

Solidarity said:


> Chemed Roto rooter Branches across the country have been caught purposefully and knowingly sending unlicensed people posing as Plumbers in MA,LA,MN,Hawaii and several others. It appears this is a Corporate policy to fraud consumers across the country into believing they are paying for a Licensed experienced Plumber. Has anyone had a similar experience out there. This is a detriment to the Licensed Plumber but also puts the consumer and untrained employee in Danger. Let us know if you work in a state that requires a License,if youve worker for RR or if you still do and have they asked you to do unlicensed work.Thanks


Troll a workin'...


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## duncanplumbing

*huh?*

Will Rogers this a forum for plumbers. A plumber is not going to contact you for your plumbing services. Spend some money on advertising.


Will said:


> Drain Cleaning is Plumbing. So is repairing faucets, rebuilding valves, repairing water heaters, etc.


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## SewerRat

duncanplumbing said:


> Will Rogers this a forum for plumbers. A plumber is not going to contact you for your plumbing services. Spend some money on advertising.


:huh:Huh you? :confused1: You no maka da sense, dunkie.  

'Sides, check out Will's qualifications and history here before coming out of the woodwork as a newb and bashing someone out of the blue who has been around most major plumbing forums for a while and is generally respected. :bangin:

Unless there's an inside joke here somewhere that I'm missing. :001_unsure:


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## affordabledrain

duncanplumbing said:


> Will Rogers this a forum for plumbers. A plumber is not going to contact you for your plumbing services. Spend some money on advertising.


not sure whats going on here


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## TTopPlumbing

Are chimney sweeps fire place installers? Plumbers install plumbing, guys who snake drains fall under the "industrial pipe cleaning" catergory.:laughing:


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## Will

duncanplumbing said:


> Will Rogers this a forum for plumbers. A plumber is not going to contact you for your plumbing services. Spend some money on advertising.


Not sure what your problem is, you obviously don't know what your talking about. Post an intro about yourself before posting, like everyone else has done on this Forum. Change your attitude while your at it.


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## SlickRick

Will said:


> Not sure what your problem is, you obviously don't know what your talking about. Post an intro about yourself before posting, like everyone else has done on this Forum. Change your attitude while your at it.


Must be someone in your area.


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## plbgbiz

duncanplumbing said:


> Will Rogers this a forum for plumbers. A plumber is not going to contact you for your plumbing services. Spend some money on advertising.


How about you post an intro and explain your qualifications for offering such counsel to a successful and respected Plumbing Business Operator such as Will Rogers.


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## easttexasplumb

Will said:


> Not sure what your problem is, you obviously don't know what your talking about. Post an intro about yourself before posting, like everyone else has done on this Forum. Change your attitude while your at it.


The spiderS that crawl here are giving him free advertising. :thumbup:


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## Epox

I have no issue with drain cleaners at all. But I see it all the time, drain cleaners around here that don't have a clue how drains work. I was at a house yesterday. H.O. said the washer drain been stopped up for 6 years. Yes 6 years. R.R. man walked off saying he's done and doesn't know what to do any more. He quit her. We were called in, she was ready to do full drain reroute, I said no let me check the drain. Rodded through the roof, the drain was fine, rodded the trap and WM drained great. Sold her a trap/ST replacement. $700.00. 
Job before that a different company was compared to Laurel and Hardy by a customer to me. Any drain any time $49.99. :laughing:
Thx, you're great advertisement for us.

Honestly I don't mean to pick on anyone, at least they are trying to make it and working verses setting around drawing off our taxes. They just need to know what they are doing. I realize many are true professional drain cleaners.


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## justin

I do probably 2% drain cleaning , and rest new and repair. I have jetter, cameras , locators, excavators , and sewer machines. I consider all of it plumbing . But, just because you can clean drains doesn't mean you are a plumber. And, just because you can plumb houses doesn't mean you are a plumber. I know hacks that install piping on houses , but I dont consider them plumbers. I know a guy that does bookoo work without license and he thinks he is a plumber. He's not!!! 
So , I clean drains and I consider it plumbing. 


Does that shiit even make sense?


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## johnlewismcleod

justin said:


> I do probably 2% drain cleaning , and rest new and repair. I have jetter, cameras , locators, excavators , and sewer machines. I consider all of it plumbing . But, just because you can clean drains doesn't mean you are a plumber. And, just because you can plumb houses doesn't mean you are a plumber. I know hacks that install piping on houses , but I dont consider them plumbers. I know a guy that does bookoo work without license and he thinks he is a plumber. He's not!!!
> So , I clean drains and I consider it plumbing.
> 
> 
> Does that shiit even make sense?


Yes :thumbsup:


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## pilot light

TTopPlumbing said:


> Are chimney sweeps fire place installers? Plumbers install plumbing, guys who snake drains fall under the "industrial pipe cleaning" catergory.:laughing:


 What about a power vac on a boiler?


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## Adamche

Rodding and jetting drains Is a plumbers job, end of story. No ifs or buts. To do it successfully you need to have the (knowledge), of where drains run etc. a good plumber can" see" where a drain will be underground


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## Triodaddyo

I have many years experience in commercial large scale new construction work. However, Im currently in residential service because I love doing it. That means I snake a LOT of drains. That doesnt make me less of a plumber. In fact, because of my experience Im really good at being a "snake boy". Yes there are those that don't qualify as skilled plumbers, but a good service technician can be more skilled than a lot of guys Ive worked with who just know how to glue pipe and solder a fitting.


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## Unclog1776

Drain cleaning should require a license. There are so many hacks out there it's not even funny. Some of them have plumbing licenses too


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