# Underground Leak In Domestic Hot Water



## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

I know you guys have talked about this before, so maybe you can give some tips, or steer me the old thread.

Got a 3/4in L soft copper underground pipe that goes appox. 35ft long. It comes out of slab, right behind water heater, then the other end terminates in access panel behind tub.(This line only feeds a tub & shower unit, & a lav, in a small 2 bedroom apt). So I got access to both ends. I plan on pushing a pex line through the 3/4in copper, that is under the slab.So here is my questions;

Any way of getting 1/2in pex line through there? If not do they make 3/8in I.D. pex? I hate to run 1/4in that far.

Do I need to grease it up, or lubricate it in any way? I know I will ream the pipe for where I make the cuts, coming out of slab.

Any tips will be appreciated, cuz I never tried this before, but doesn't seem too difficult, or impossible to accomplish.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*maybe you will get lucky*

I hoep that their are no joints down inthe slab


It would work as long as they did not bent the copper too much ,,, or it might work, 

1/2 wirsbo aquapex would be my choice for this contest.......

maybe it will, who knows...
go ahead and try it,
 cause you got nothing to lose anyway


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Cut the end at a 45 degree angle, if it gets stuck try rotating the pipe so its twisting like a sewer cable. I'm not sure what plumbers grease would do to pex. Make sure there are no "tape" marks on the pex, they make it a PITA. If it will reach use a straight stick of pex. 1/2 should go no problem, they make 3/8 and fittings try a mobile home store.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Can you run it overhead? I've never pushed it thru existing pipe.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

Titan Plumbing said:


> Can you run it overhead? I've never pushed it thru existing pipe.


 Overhead not an option, unless we ran inside, & boxed it in. Freezing attic above. I suggested fake baseboard heaters along walls, but owner said it would be a dirt collecter. Gotta go through a bedroom, laundry room, & furnace room.


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## grandpa (Jul 13, 2008)

I think the chances of pushing any pex that far are slim. Pulling might work. Fish a string through, possibly using air pressure. Or try to get an electricians fish tape through. Now figure out a good secure connection to the pex.

Remember that 1/2" PEX has an ID closer to that of 3/8 copper. Marginal for your application. 3/8 pex would be unacceptable. 

Is there a known leak in your copper? Possibly reconsider trying to locate and access that leak.

Electricians use pulling grease. It is OK for thermoplastic insulation, so probably ok on pex, but don't quote me on that . Check with the pex boys.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I know a customer of mine that pushed 3/8" soft copper through 3/4" soft over 50' back in the 70's. 

Lots of vaseline....


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## PlumberJake (Nov 15, 2010)

I did this a few weeks ago.. only about 18' of 1/2" pex through 3/4" polybutylene though. I was able to push it, but had a fish tape ready just in case. I'd say definitely plan on having to pull it for a 35' run. Have fun!

On another note: Since volume may be an issue for that bathroom after the repair, you may consider using your new run as the cold line and switching the good run to the hot. That is if you can get to the toilet supply.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Soap and water is the best lube you can use

If you do want to pull a line through

What we do is put a vacuum on one end and a string and a wad of cotton on the other end and vacuum pulls it right through

Sent from my miniature laptop


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

We push through all the time. The only issue we have is when the ends are "bent" poorly. I have recently pushed 45' of 1/4 pex through 1/2 poly. I didn't like it but jackhammering was not an option and it was that or cut the cold to an old guys kitchen sink.


Your better off trying to pull first, no harm in trying and it does not screw up the pipe.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I have pushed several 1/2 through 3/4 copper up to about 40'. No crimps in the copper, no problem.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

If there is a kink you'll get stuck and for that far of a run a kink is likely, but worth a try.

Another option that I've done a few times with success is use the old copper to pull new copper (haven't actually done it with pex yet, but foresee no problem with that).

Pull the tub, break out enough floor underneath to give the copper a straight pull (other end would work also if more convenient), then take a double wrap with a strong nylon piece of pulling string or rope.

On the other end weld the old to new with a coupling (or pex adapter if you want to do pex), and have your helper feed it to you as you pull it through with a come-along.

It will be a chore sometimes to break the old copper free at first, but once it starts moving it will come out well and pull the new in behind it.

If all else fails you can abandon the old loop and take new overhead after establishing the copper is poured through a beam or whatever 

The key is letting the customer know the options and that any single option can be unsuccessful and that you will then have to move to the next with no freebies...customer chooses which to try first and knows success isn't guaranteed due to unknown conditions below slab.

I've not ried it before, but Old School's suggestion of sucking a string through might be good for enabling you to pull and push at the same time :thumbsup:



Edit: Hmmm...one possible problem with pulling pex rather than copper would be if there are jagged rocks or other debris. Pex is easily cut or torn when dragged over sharp objects.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

The vacuum method is what we do to pass heat trace in poly pipe

Sent from my miniature laptop


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

I wouldn't even consider pulling for the chance that wasting time and pulling tub , and then failing at the pull. There goes a day!!! Overhead with heat tape , fiberglass insulation and a metal jacket. Collect money.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

I might try pushing 1/2 through but would fear to much pressure loss. try quickly, like once or twice. If nothing, then its overhead. Be out in 2 to 4 hrs.
Hope it works out for you.


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## Bellboy (Jan 21, 2012)

Do you know where the leak is? Why not jackhammer and fix the leak?


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

Going to do this job today. I'll let you all know how it turns out.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

Bellboy said:


> Do you know where the leak is? Why not jackhammer and fix the leak?


$$$$$$$ Thats why! And its a 2 bedroom apt with people living in it. I would have to bust through the kitchen, laundry room, furnace room, & bedroom, to accomplish this.

I would run it on outside of walls, if all else fails.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

SlickRick said:


> I have pushed several 1/2 through 3/4 copper up to about 40'. No crimps in the copper, no problem.


Can you downsize water pipe? 

Isn't this a code issue?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

TallCoolOne said:


> Can you downsize water pipe?
> 
> Isn't this a code issue?


That all depends on the length of run, size of supply, and pressure. I don't think there are any residential fixtures that the IPC tables show requiring larger than a 1/2" supply except for the water heater.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> That all depends on the length of run, size of supply, and pressure. I don't think there are any residential fixtures that the IPC tables show requiring larger than a 1/2" supply except for the water heater.


I am postive if i downsized a pipe from 3/4 to 1/2 that would be a red tag or if the plumbing board found out it would be a fine here in Texas


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Sometimes the customer has to suck it up. I would never suggest to the customer something I never tried. They have homeowner insurance. Do it the way you were trained. If you cause $10k damage getting to the leak, most homeowner policies will cover the demo and repair of floors walls and ceilings but not the actual plumbing repair. Maybe try it, but let the customer know if it doesn't work to call their insurance company.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Don The Plumber said:


> Got a 3/4in L soft copper underground pipe that goes appox. 35ft long. It comes out of slab, right behind water heater, then the other end terminates in access panel behind tub.(This line only feeds a tub & shower unit, & a lav, in a small 2 bedroom apt).


Two fixtures only...1/2" would pass muster.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

TallCoolOne said:


> I am postive if i downsized a pipe from 3/4 to 1/2 that would be a red tag or if the plumbing board found out it would be a fine here in Texas



Do they drive down the streets fining the people with 40 year old galvanized pipe?

You Texans are hard core.:laughing:


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Dude already said it is an apartment. Pay attention.

Anyway, OP, get some 3/8" od pex, and get it done man.

Manablocks are (were?) all the rage, right?. (all 3/8")

It will be fine, for Gods sake.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

Did the job today. Managed to get 1/2" pex through. Used lots of electrical cable lube, & hooked with a fish tape so we could push & pull. Worked out awesome. I got pics, but can't get them to upload. How in the Hell do ya post pics from camera card. Been workin on these damn pics, for almost as long as it took me to do the plumbing job.:laughing: Now I know why I don't work in an office. Now I need advice on pics.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

I'm waiting for the update, I heard it was going well with 1/2 pex until they hit the sharkbite holding the 2 sticks together.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

desertokie said:


> i'm waiting for the update, i heard it was going well with 1/2 pex until they hit the sharkbite holding the 2 sticks together.


lol!


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Don The Plumber said:


> Did the job today. Managed to get 1/2" pex through. Used lots of electrical cable lube, & hooked with a fish tape so we could push & pull. Worked out awesome. I got pics, but can't get them to upload. How in the Hell do ya post pics from camera card. Been workin on these damn pics, for almost as long as it took me to do the plumbing job.:laughing: Now I know why I don't work in an office. Now I need advice on pics.


Good to hear :thumbup:


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Don The Plumber said:


> Did the job today. Managed to get 1/2" pex through. Used lots of electrical cable lube, & hooked with a fish tape so we could push & pull. Worked out awesome. I got pics, but can't get them to upload. How in the Hell do ya post pics from camera card. Been workin on these damn pics, for almost as long as it took me to do the plumbing job.:laughing: Now I know why I don't work in an office. *Now I need advice on pics.*


Join a photo hosting site such as Photobucket, upload them to PB and then copy the image code, insert into post.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Dude already said it is an apartment. Pay attention.
> 
> Anyway, OP, get some 3/8" od pex, and get it done man.
> 
> ...





DesertOkie said:


> Do they drive down the streets fining the people with 40 year old galvanized pipe?
> 
> You Texans are hard core.:laughing:


3/8" OD for a tub/shower and lav?:blink: I wouldn't want to be in that shower when someone turned on the lav 

You two aren't hardcore enough...we'll see if can get you scheduled for a visit to Austin :thumbsup:


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

johnlewismcleod said:


> 3/8" OD for a tub/shower and lav?:blink: I wouldn't want to be in that shower when someone turned on the lav
> 
> You two aren't hardcore enough...we'll see if can get you scheduled for a visit to Austin :thumbsup:



What I was saying is most 3/4 galvanized pipe I see has less than 1/2 worth of ID. Remember in cases like this there are lots of Sleeve it or cap it I don't have the $.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

DesertOkie said:


> What I was saying is most 3/4 galvanized pipe I see has less than 1/2 worth of ID. Remember in cases like this there are lots of Sleeve it or cap it I don't have the $.


Very true...I run into that periodically myself. I need to replace the piping in my Dad's house and all the way to the well soon as a matter of fact


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

A good friend of the family built an addition to his house at his deer ranch, did everything himself. He used spa pipe, pressure fittings and 3/8' soft copper...it all worked for years. I took many a shower in that place. I eventually re-piped his main house with the proper size water pipe and his wife swore I was trying to rip her skin off, intentionally.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Titan Plumbing said:


> A good friend of the family built an addition to his house at his deer ranch, did everything himself. He used spa pipe, pressure fittings and 3/8' soft copper...it all worked for years. I took many a shower in that place. I eventually re-piped his main house with the proper size water pipe and his wife swore I was trying to rip her skin off, intentionally.


Us non Texans don't think 1 1/2 wirsbo is proper size.:laughing:


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

Ft. Worth has started making you run 3/4" all the way to the toilet then they will let you stub out 1/2" for the piece coming out of the wall


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

playme1979 said:


> Ft. Worth has started making you run 3/4" all the way to the toilet then they will let you stub out 1/2" for the piece coming out of the wall


Our Chief has some ideas for sure.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

playme1979 said:


> Ft. Worth has started making you run 3/4" all the way to the toilet then they will let you stub out 1/2" for the piece coming out of the wall


Heh...everytime I have to call for an inspection in Fort Worth I expect something new :whistling2:

It would really piss me off if it wasn't for the fact that they are actually improving the plumbing systems with their changes (as opposed to most other municipalities that seem to be competing in the "race to the bottom").

Has Fort Worth outlawed foam core PVC yet?...Please say yes.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

We have alot of problems with slab leaks on homes built in the late 80's and early 90's. We push pex thru quite a few. I try pushing 1/2 inch thru 3/4 and it generally goes thru without a problem. If I have a hard time pushing it, I split the pex for the first 15 feet or whatever is nessasary. I can get the split line thru tight bends or some kinks. Once you get the split pex out the over end you can push and have a helper pull from the other end. I have only had one I could not repair this way and it was due to a bad repair and they sweated 90s in the slab.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

PlungerJockey said:


> We have alot of problems with slab leaks on homes built in the late 80's and early 90's. We push pex thru quite a few. I try pushing 1/2 inch thru 3/4 and it generally goes thru without a problem. If I have a hard time pushing it, I split the pex for the first 15 feet or whatever is nessasary. I can get the split line thru tight bends or some kinks. Once you get the split pex out the over end you can push and have a helper pull from the other end. I have only had one I could not repair this way and it was due to a bad repair and they sweated 90s in the slab.


Ooooh!...That's a brilliant trick! Thanks for sharing :thumbsup:


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

johnlewismcleod said:


> Heh...everytime I have to call for an inspection in Fort Worth I expect something new :whistling2:
> 
> It would really piss me off if it wasn't for the fact that they are actually improving the plumbing systems with their changes (as opposed to most other municipalities that seem to be competing in the "race to the bottom").
> 
> *Has Fort Worth outlawed foam core PVC yet?*...Please say yes.


Nope and they better not.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Titan Plumbing said:


> Nope and they better not.


Heh...make lots of money on broken sewer line repairs, do we?


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

playme1979 said:


> Ft. Worth has started making you run 3/4" all the way to the toilet then they will let you stub out 1/2" for the piece coming out of the wall


 Thats gonna be a necessity for sure on these 1.28 GPF toilets. Gotta love beaurocrats.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> That all depends on the length of run, size of supply, and pressure. I don't think there are any residential fixtures that the IPC tables show requiring larger than a 1/2" supply except for the water heater.


But the distance this is running and feeding 2 fixtures I would not decrease the pipe size. 

Using the IPC-builders code-install as cheap as possible code h**l why not if we can't do it right this will suffice then 1/2 will probably work.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

PlungerJockey said:


> We have alot of problems with slab leaks on homes built in the late 80's and early 90's. We push pex thru quite a few. I try pushing 1/2 inch thru 3/4 and it generally goes thru without a problem. If I have a hard time pushing it, I split the pex for the first 15 feet or whatever is nessasary. I can get the split line thru tight bends or some kinks. Once you get the split pex out the over end you can push and have a helper pull from the other end. I have only had one I could not repair this way and it was due to a bad repair and they sweated 90s in the slab.


Do the inspectors know about this?


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

DesertOkie said:


> Do they drive down the streets fining the people with 40 year old galvanized pipe?
> 
> You Texans are hard core.:laughing:


The problem with your arguement is that the galvanized is an exisitng product, and what you are installing would need to meet current codes.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

Associated Plum said:


> Do the inspectors know about this?


I suspect the people pushing PEX down cooper are out in the sticks or don't have to deal with inspectors.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

TallCoolOne said:


> I suspect the people pushing PEX down cooper are out in the sticks or don't have to deal with inspectors.


Definitely one of the two. With service work you have to be creative sometimes. 

35' run of 3/8" O.D. for tub/shower & a lav. = bad creative IMO :no:

35' run of 1/2" pex to supply a lav and tub/shower = good creative IMO :yes:

If it works and doesn't violate code...why not?


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Associated Plum said:


> Do the inspectors know about this?


We landed a huge repipe once only because we promised we would not compromise their marble kitchen floor. Pushed 3/8 pex through 1/2" cpr for island. We were only company to even suggest it. Although angle stops were farther than code permited, inspector was quite impressed and had no proplem with it. (even out here In the stix). We landed 3 more monster repipes I'm same subdivision.
Oh yeah, I could not believe that a few other bidding companies even suggest deleting ialand sink all together.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

On this job I now have 1/2" pex feeding a tub & shower unit, & a lav. This is a 2 bedroom apt. The bathroom is about 5ft X 7ft. Not very often are the tub & lav gonna be running at same time. Just like Johnlewis said, in repair, or service work, you gotta get creative.

Now I ran the bathtub fully open, & turned on the lav, all hot water, & there was plenty of water coming out of both. Turned off tub, & lav volume barely increased. Now this is all hot water. Under normal use, you would be mixing cold in with it.

I would of had to tear up 1yr old ceramic tile in kitchen, furnace room, & laundry room, as well as carpet in bedroom. These tenants would of also been very inconvenienced, or may even of had to move out. I mean this place is so small, I had to walk outside, to change my mind.:laughing:

No way can any rational person say this was not the way to go. And I don't care whether insurance would or would not pay, there were alot of other factors than just money, you gotta think about. Any rational inspector would of passed it too. Now had I used 3/8", then I could see a potential pressure issue, (minimal), or a code issue, but with 1/2", your rarely if ever, gonna run 2 fixtures at same time. It will always be supplying only 1 fixture at a time.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Naaah, I won't do pex through copper.

Imagine the repair plumber trying to find a leak in pex that's sleeved 35'. Any cost savings today will be lost when that pex leaks.

Yeah, I may not get the job today, but I'll sleep better knowing I didn't do it.

If it was to a stable or barn, I might, but a dwelling? Firgitboutit.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Actually sleeving runs of piping is a code approved and sometimes required technique. You don't have to know where the leak in the line is, just see that there is a leak in the sleeve as it bubbles out. When there is a leak you just cut the pipe on either end and pull new through. 

Very common for supplies that go under driveways and parking areas.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Associated Plum said:


> The problem with your arguement is that the galvanized is an exisitng product, and what you are installing would need to meet current codes.



No what I'm saying is we have people that wait until the 1st of the month to get their main line ran here. It is either sleeve or cap. To say sorry I don't think thats cool it will restrict flow to much it's jackhammer or nothing is BS.

The customer knows the possibility that it will limit flow but certainly understands it will be much more flow than a cap. Yes most of what I do is in the sticks, and yes it is a whole new world. Believe me I had plumbers culture shock moving here. 

Out here you are not working from A to Z you are fixing D, to the best of your ability and what your customer can do. 


You guys sound like me when I moved here.:laughing:


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

Plumber said:


> Naaah, I won't do pex through copper.
> 
> Imagine the repair plumber trying to find a leak in pex that's sleeved 35'. Any cost savings today will be lost when that pex leaks.
> 
> ...


Whats wrong with a pex pipe in a sleeve? It would be an easy replacement, if needed, but I don't see it lasting any less than the pex pipes I see flopping around in houses, & commercial bldgs, & the big sags in hot water lines, cuz it wasn't supported properly. And IMO the way to support pex, especially the hot lines, is continuously.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

You are talking apples and oranges here. 

Running a undersized pex tube through a broken copper pipe is not sleeving.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

It worth a try to push a pex pipe through..

I had a 400 unit apartment building and each unit was heated with a hot water tank using baseboard convectors...

The existing pipe was that grey plastic crap of a pipe... any way the existing pipe was actually wearing out ... it was getting pin holes in it...

The maintence guys were patching these lines everyday in different units.....

So I showed them what to do... to fish 1/2" pex through the existing pipes and tie the new pex to the rads..

It worked like a charm... the only problem was it was so easy to do they did it themselves...


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

Plumber said:


> You are talking apples and oranges here.
> 
> Running a undersized pex tube through a broken copper pipe is not sleeving.


Ok then, lets say I insulated it underground with copper tubing.:yes:

But seriously, in a perfect world, I am on board with what your saying, 100%. But this aint a perfect world, where everyone has all kinds of money, & wants it all done to code. I would love to go in there, tear up the ceramic tile flooring, & carpet, & replace that underground line. Heck why not replace the cold too, while we got it open. That may break soon as well. "PREVENTATIVE MAINTAINENCE"? Not too many landlords ever heard of it.

I can't for the life of me, understand why you think this is so bad to run a pex line through a copper pipe. If this pex line only lasted 2 yrs, I could pull it out & replace 20 times, for what its going to cost to break up floors. (But in my opinion, it will outlast the apt unit itself). I'm not supplying Trump towers here, I'm supplying 1 bathtub, & 1 lav in a 5ft X 7ft bathroom in a 2 bedroom apt. And I hate pex pipe, but here, in this situation, I had no choice.

Whoever uses this bathroom will never ever notice any difference in water volume, &/or pressure. No one uses all hot water at either fixture. So the cold is still supplying 30% to 50% of the water, while showering.

Heck, these landlords don't spend money on necessity items. He cut a hunk of wood for access panel, that we had to make larger, & didn't bother to paint it, or trim it, or anything. Just threw it up on wall in bedroom, with 4 screws. Tenants in these places don't care either. So if you do fix these places up plush, they don't appreciate it, & destroy,abuse, or don't take care of it anyway. And this place was not in a bad hood either, not great, but not bad. I had to mop the kithen floor before I could even lay my tarps down, cuz there was sticky stuff all over, from garbage bag that was oozing. I had to take the bag out myself, to get rid of, cuz it stunk too. There is a dumpster 100 ft away.

So no, I don't think this tenant is concerned that she now only has 1/2" pipe feeding 2 fixtures.:no:


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Don The Plumber said:


> Ok then, lets say I insulated it underground with copper tubing.:yes:
> 
> But seriously, in a perfect world, I am on board with what your saying, 100%. But this aint a perfect world, where everyone has all kinds of money, & wants it all done to code. I would love to go in there, tear up the ceramic tile flooring, & carpet, & replace that underground line. Heck why not replace the cold too, while we got it open. That may break soon as well. "PREVENTATIVE MAINTAINENCE"? Not too many landlords ever heard of it.
> 
> ...


Still wasn't to code...:laughing:

I haven't done this, but it's definitely in my toolbox from now on.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

89plumbum said:


> We landed a huge repipe once only because we promised we would not compromise their marble kitchen floor. Pushed 3/8 pex through 1/2" cpr for island. We were only company to even suggest it. Although angle stops were farther than code permited, inspector was quite impressed and had no proplem with it. (even out here In the stix). We landed 3 more monster repipes I'm same subdivision.
> Oh yeah, I could not believe that a few other bidding companies even suggest deleting ialand sink all together.


Are the risers for island coming up through the floor?


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Don The Plumber said:


> Ok then, lets say I insulated it underground with copper tubing.:yes:
> 
> But seriously, in a perfect world, I am on board with what your saying, 100%. But this aint a perfect world, where everyone has all kinds of money, & wants it all done to code. I would love to go in there, tear up the ceramic tile flooring, & carpet, & replace that underground line. Heck why not replace the cold too, while we got it open. That may break soon as well. "PREVENTATIVE MAINTAINENCE"? Not too many landlords ever heard of it.
> 
> ...


You're fired.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

MTDUNN said:


> Are the risers for island coming up through the floor?


Yes. Slab on grade.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

TallCoolOne said:


> I am postive if i downsized a pipe from 3/4 to 1/2 that would be a red tag or if the plumbing board found out it would be a fine here in Texas


If you are so positive I would ask you to check with your local inspector. When you do, though, make sure you include all the particulars, such as how many & what fixtures are being fed, how long of a run. Don't give only half of the information & expect an accurate response. I am positive that if the inspector is doing his job, upholding the code, and not inputting his personal agenda, that he/she will have no choice but to approve based on what the o.p. stated.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

I believe most municipalities allow for exemptions either way based on cost of changing existing structure. We had this happen lots bringing WH up to code, hard to run a T&P to sunlight when the water heater closet is in the center of the house.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

DesertOkie said:


> I believe most municipalities allow for exemptions either way based on cost of changing existing structure. We had this happen lots bringing WH up to code, hard to run a T&P to sunlight when the water heater closet is in the center of the house.


Good example is we are remodeling a bathroom right now in a 6000 sq ft house, that was built in the 1930's. This community has mostly old houses. The new electrical code, I guess calls for any remodeling done in house, that you must put in smoke detectors & CO alarms throughout house, that are hard wired, so 1 goes off, they all go off. Well this would cost mega bucks to do in this particular 3 story house, not including basement. But the inspector let the GC off without doing it, cuz it was too costly. And the GC called the chief bldg insp, ( believe it or not, bldg dept enforces this, not electrical), before the job even started, cuz all the other communities we have been working in, are requiring smokes, & CO in every room of house. 

So as you say, alot of these cities, have to have exemptions, for certain things. Now I don't agree that not requiring smokes, & CO detectors is a good thing, I'm just giving a real example.
They let us slide alot on fixture clearances too, cuz some of these bathrooms are small, or have crazy layouts.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

mccmech said:


> If you are so positive I would ask you to check with your local inspector. When you do, though, make sure you include all the particulars, such as how many & what fixtures are being fed, how long of a run. Don't give only half of the information & expect an accurate response. I am positive that if the inspector is doing his job, upholding the code, and not inputting his personal agenda, that he/she will have no choice but to approve based on what the o.p. stated.


I disagree

The OP will be downsizing pipe, and plus how will he/she make the connection under slab?


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

TallCoolOne said:


> I disagree
> 
> The OP will be downsizing pipe, and plus how will he/she make the connection under slab?



There is no connection under the slab. A 1/2 pex pipe will be pushed through the whole thing. It's a loop system.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

What is the SPECIFIC CODE that is being violated? (not inspector's pet peeve, but CODE)

There are thousands of two bath homes plumbed with 3/4" water service to the water heater and after that EVERYTHING is 1/2". They all received green tags.

That includes my house and although I would have preferred 3/4" to the outside hydrants, I don't lack for water at any fixture (even if more than one is being used).


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> What is the SPECIFIC CODE that is being violated? (not inspector's pet peeve, but CODE)
> 
> There are thousands of two bath homes plumbed with 3/4" water service to the water heater and after that EVERYTHING is 1/2". They all received green tags.
> 
> That includes my house and although I would have preferred 3/4" to the outside hydrants, I don't lack for water at any fixture (even if more than one is being used).



Specific codes vary from one municipality to another depending in the whim of each governing body, but I've yet to encounter any that won't allow at least two fixtures on a 1/2" line.

Rumor has it that Fort Worth may be the first, though :whistling2:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I am pretty sure you can have 11 fixtures on a 1/2" pipe by code
http://www.oboa.on.ca/events/2010/sessions/files/410.pdf

Sent from my miniature laptop


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> I am pretty sure you can have 11 fixtures on a 1/2" pipe by code
> 
> Sent from my miniature laptop


Heh...11 fixture units, maybe  

A lavatory is one fixture unit, but a tub/shower can be anywhere from 4 to 10. 

Still...even with the worst case scenario a lav and tub is fine on a 1/2" line anywhere except Fort Worth.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

johnlewismcleod said:


> Heh...11 fixture units, maybe
> 
> A lavatory is one fixture unit, but a tub/shower can be anywhere from 4 to 10.
> 
> Still...even with the worst case scenario a lav and tub is fine on a 1/2" line anywhere except Fort Worth.


yah fixture units.... I was just rereading that link I posted and its 8... I though it was 11 ... oh well


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

chart


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Ooooh...very nice link there Old School...thanks!


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

johnlewismcleod said:


> Ooooh...very nice link there Old School...thanks!


So you can see from the charts that a bathroom group on cold pipe only is 2.7 FU

So in essence at 8 FU so can do three washrooms or 2.96 washroom groups with using just a 1/2" pipe on the cold


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

TallCoolOne said:


> I disagree
> 
> The OP will be downsizing pipe, and plus how will he/she make the connection under slab?


First off, who said anything about ANY connections being made underground. This is why I made the point of saying to please include ALL details when talking to the inspector. I am dumbfounded by how many people hear what they want to hear and then pass judgement. Secondly, water supply, as well as gas supply lines are downsized every day. That's what we do. We come into a home at one size, then as distance and demand require, we downsize the material. I cannot speak to the plumbing codes in your region but in mine we can feed up to 3 fixtures on 1/2" supply for water. I wouldn't hesitate to wager with anyone, however, that regardless of area of the country, 2 fixtures can be fed by 1/2" water feed ( excluding water heater ).


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

johnlewismcleod said:


> Specific codes vary from one municipality to another depending in the whim of each governing body, but I've yet to encounter any that won't allow at least two fixtures on a 1/2" line.
> 
> Rumor has it that Fort Worth may be the first, though :whistling2:


DC Metro. 3 fixture units on 1/2" unless hose bib. All hose bibs come off 3/4"

This is WSSC WS not UPC.


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