# When the Plumber makes a Mistake



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I got a little stupid with the sawzall yesterday. 

Was on the wrong side when I was cutting it. My "goal" was to cut it below the hub, sweat off the brass and reconnect with a mission no hub coupling. 



Question: 


Knowing what happened, and knowing that

1. Can't touch those joists
2. Can't go above and open the wall behind the toilet to bring a new piece down (tiled wall)


What would you do?


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Use one of those new "giant" sharkbites...


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

inside tubing cutters. reconnect etc. or reinforce joists by building a pony wall , cut out joist to make repair and replace cut out joists by scabbing new 2/6 up against old atleast 4' , with joist hanger. dont forget to charge customer also.


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

Will a no-hub squeeze in between the joists?

If so, a small cut off wheel on a dremel or the like will take care of the copper from the inside.


If a no-hub coupling/fernco won't fit in there, can you notch the joist, get your plumbing sorted, then sister up another joist beside it?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I'd box out the area with joist hangers and cut out the joist on the near side. That should give room to cut the pipe off with a recip saw or grinder with a diamond blade. If not go with the inside pipe cutter.

Fernco after that. The joist looks like it will have to go to get the Fernco in.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Call jsoh!!


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## seanny deep (Jan 28, 2012)

Internal cutters and hole saw a floor joist so you can get a nut driver in to tighten fernco/ no hub


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Now remember,

I claim to be an old school plumber. For a fact, a mission no hub coupling will not fit inbetween those joists, even if I tried to spread the joists. <<< Wouldn't happen that close nailed to the band joist anyway.

I've got video of what I did,


some won't like, 


some will understand perfectly. 

Just think old school. A mistake is a mistake, and this "is" a vent heading to the roof, but I'd claim my fix as good enough to hold like a water line in this repair.

If I had time I'd build this video tonight but I gotta head to bed. I'll get this together here soon.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Titan Plumbing said:


> Use one of those new "giant" sharkbites...


 
I bet in the next 15 years, we will have push fit DWV. The government is slowly removing VOC's from paint, lead from plumbers... it going to happen.




justin said:


> inside tubing cutters. reconnect etc. or reinforce joists by building a pony wall , cut out joist to make repair and replace cut out joists by scabbing new 2/6 up against old atleast 4' , with joist hanger. dont forget to charge customer also.


 
Can't touch those joists. I pride myself to this day that I can do most plumbing service work without destroying joists, namely structural members.





MarkToo said:


> Will a no-hub squeeze in between the joists?
> 
> If so, a small cut off wheel on a dremel or the like will take care of the copper from the inside.
> 
> ...


No-hub won't fit. That screw up went way above what a hub will cover to the pipe below the joist.



plbgbiz said:


> I'd box out the area with joist hangers and cut out the joist on the near side. That should give room to cut the pipe off with a recip saw or grinder with a diamond blade. If not go with the inside pipe cutter.
> 
> Fernco after that. The joist looks like it will have to go to get the Fernco in.


 
No ferncos above ground in KY, but a fernco would of worked in this fashion between the joists. Would of been hard to tighten the bands though.



seanny deep said:


> Internal cutters and hole saw a floor joist so you can get a nut driver in to tighten fernco/ no hub


 
That would work too, but as mentioned I try not to touch the wood in older structures. 

I'm going to post a picture of the finished work, leave everyone guessing how I repaired it till tomorrow. :jester:


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## walker426 (Oct 17, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I got a little stupid with the sawzall yesterday.
> 
> Was on the wrong side when I was cutting it. My "goal" was to cut it below the hub, sweat off the brass and reconnect with a mission no hub coupling.
> 
> ...


Why not just sweat it off to start?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)




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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

walker426 said:


> Why not just sweat it off to start?


 
That was the goal; keep the cut below the hub, but I goofed. Above is the picture where I reconnected to the same pipe with the brass hub removed from the tee.


Tomorrow when I get off work I'll build the video of my fix.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)




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## coast to coast (Feb 17, 2012)

Is that a lead p trap I see ? Just wondering why you didn't re-work the 3" ?


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

Doesn't look like it passed the bell of fitting I would solder a slip coupling install a street nitey 
l


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

revenge said:


> ....install a street nitey


They have laws against that profession in Oklahoma. :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I agree with Mr. Revenge. That no hub doesn't look like it got above the bottom of the floor joist. How did you repair the over cut that went higher?


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## bikefitter0 (Nov 22, 2011)

sweat it off, then try to tin it in with 50/50 on the inside. fill in the slice. stick some flashing against the joist.


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

I like your "Dunbar" stickers.

Can't miss 'em.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

I would have used a rotary tool (Dremel) with a corrugated cut off wheel to cut the pipe off internally (and square) and then an oscillating saw to shave off just enough of the joists to slip on a shielded coupling.

And as somebody else pointed out, your shielded coupling appears to be well below your first cut.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Is the shielded coupling placed right over the hub of the copper fitting that was to be removed?


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## seanny deep (Jan 28, 2012)

My guess is dunbar soldered it up and then connected with no hub he did say he was oldschool. That's my guess.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Inside tubing cutters


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Yup, amazing how many plumbers don't know about inside cutters. I have 2 sets, big and small. Paramount when nothing else will work.


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## Pipecommandor (Apr 18, 2011)

I think the patch is fine !!! I would have have stacked 2 Tee's though, a 4 x 3 tee up high then the 4 tee stacked under that. Picking up the other drop. It would be a little lower but look better than those 45', I like the PVC x DWV no hubs, those are a must !!


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

I would have used a 3x2 wye instead of a 3" wye / bushing and I would have tried to role it to the side to eliminate 2" snake of fittings.


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## coast to coast (Feb 17, 2012)

Colgar said:


> I would have used a 3x2 wye instead of a 3" wye / bushing and I would have tried to role it to the side to eliminate 2" snake of fittings.


4x3 y . I agree with the rolling it to the side though .


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## walker426 (Oct 17, 2011)

seanny deep said:


> My guess is dunbar soldered it up and then connected with no hub he did say he was oldschool. That's my guess.


Thats what I would have done matter of fact I have sweated l copper to dwv before to make a repair


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

I'd like to know what the original problem was that required so much 'surgery'.

If it was just a simple matter of tying in a new line, then why didn't he just leave the existing tie-ins alone and wye in the new line lower down on the stack?


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Y'all see the electrolysis taking place where that copper water line is touching that angle iron in the first pic.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## Dmaz (Jan 11, 2011)

Mississippiplum said:


> Y'all see the electrolysis taking place where that copper water line is touching that angle iron in the first pic.
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


Looks like they fixed it once by throwing that coupling in, but didn't wrap it afterwards to prevent it from happening again.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I didn't forget about this... just been too busy to build the video. One of you got it right though.

I like the idea of a slip coupling, but I fixed it on site instantly without additional parts.


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## walker426 (Oct 17, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I didn't forget about this... just been too busy to build the video. One of you got it right though.
> 
> I like the idea of a slip coupling, but I fixed it on site instantly without additional parts.


U soldered a piece of pipe on there


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I would have cut it from the wall above. You said it's tile on the floor above, you can usually pull the tiles off and reuse them in older homes. Or go from the other side of the wall (assuming it wasn't an outside wall). You can't hack stuff together, and soldering a peice of pipe on there isn't strong enough. If you were going to do that brazing would be the least you could do.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I got a little stupid with the sawzall yesterday.
> 
> Was on the wrong side when I was cutting it. My "goal" was to cut it below the hub, sweat off the brass and reconnect with a mission no hub coupling.
> 
> ...


I would apply my flux to the solder joint just like usual for unsweating a fitting. Then, I would apply my torch to the interior of the pipe that is inside what remains of your hub. The material doesn't know if the heat's being applied from inside or outside. I've done this countless times when trying to remove a copper w/c flange that was installed on wet-bed & new floor will be thin-set.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Never mind. I just saw the diagonal cut. My new suggestion would be pray to the plumbing gods.:thumbup:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)




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## bikefitter0 (Nov 22, 2011)

So it looks like you took my suggestion. glad it worked out for you.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

bikefitter0 said:


> So it looks like you took my suggestion. glad it worked out for you.


 

Can't give ya credit because I already made the repair before I started the thread... just took me 4 days to get the video built. :furious: 

I've been busy lately so I didn't have time, took over an hour to make the video and it looks like I need to remove a function off that video.


That job was done all in one day since that served a one bathroom house. 

The little kids were pissing off the deck (with mother's assistance) until they left when mother couldn't do the same. :laughing:


She was pregnant too, so glad I taped the seat down on the toilet.:thumbsup:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*goo djob*

dont you hate that when something nasty like this happens.....

it takes a big man to admit that he made a mistake...

that was a creative way to make the repair...

after soldering that together, I would have added about a 1/4 a tube of clear silicone around that 3 inch pipe and a good load of it in the fercno fitting just for good measure......

I need you to pm me with what kind of camera you use for your video ...... 
I want to be a plumbing star some day like you:yes:


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## Mega Smash (Oct 9, 2009)

It takes guts to admit to making a mistake. It takes brains to fix it.

Nice job.

... I would have used Mighty Putty!


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## walker426 (Oct 17, 2011)

RW Plumbing said:


> I would have cut it from the wall above. You said it's tile on the floor above, you can usually pull the tiles off and reuse them in older homes. Or go from the other side of the wall (assuming it wasn't an outside wall). You can't hack stuff together, and soldering a peice of pipe on there isn't strong enough. If you were going to do that brazing would be the least you could do.


 How is soldering a piece of type l on there not strong enough 4 a d w v system


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## walker426 (Oct 17, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Can't give ya credit because I already made the repair before I started the thread... just took me 4 days to get the video built. :furious:
> 
> I've been busy lately so I didn't have time, took over an hour to make the video and it looks like I need to remove a function off that video.
> 
> ...


 Nice repair dunbar


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

walker426 said:


> How is soldering a piece of type l on there not strong enough 4 a d w v system


Because solder isn't made to fill 1/4" gaps. What will happen when that joint cracks? Ever pulled a stub out and broke the solder joint on a hold rite bracket? Solder isn't very strong which is why fittings are cupped.

They solder flows all the way around the pipe, and that's what makes up the joint strength. I've seen repairs like that fail. Not saying Dunbar's will but I have seen it happen. 

The bond strength of a brazed joint is what makes T drilling possible. I already said I would have cut the pipe above, bit the bullet and repaired the tile. 

His repair might be perfectly fine, in fact it probably will. It isn't code though. The problem with not following codes is where do you draw the line? In my opinion doing things the proper way even when it's difficult is what separates a good plumber from a great plumber.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

RW Plumbing said:


> *Because solder isn't made to fill 1/4" gaps.* What will happen when that joint cracks? Ever pulled a stub out and broke the solder joint on a hold rite bracket? Solder isn't very strong which is why fittings are cupped.


 50/50 or lead bar stock would have if you shined the shiot out of the copper and tinned it first. Lead is very malleable.

I still think it was an 'iffy' fix, though. I wouldn't have felt good walking away from it.

You'd have to be a serious 'Toolphile' like me to have made this work the way I would have done it.

Like I posted earlier, I would have cut out the damaged portion of the pipe internally with a rotary tool (Dremel) and surgically removed just enough wood from the floor joists with an oscillating saw and chisel to be able to slip on the appropriate shielded coupling.

Then again, I have a very hard time understanding how he botched the cut to begin with. Time is money -- There is no way in hell I would just start hacking away at something w/out thinking it through first.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> 50/50 or lead bar stock would have if you shined the shiot out of the copper and tinned it first. Lead is very malleable.
> 
> I still think it was an 'iffy' fix, though. I wouldn't have felt good walking away from it.
> 
> ...


Glad you said it

I have been thinking that but didn't want to piss on his parade

Sent from my portable office....yes I am at work


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

*This isn't a popularity contest.*



OldSchool said:


> Glad you said it
> 
> I have been thinking that but didn't want to piss on his parade
> 
> Sent from my portable office....yes I am at work


As unpopular as this may be to say, I close out about 90% of Dunbar's posts and walk away just shaking my head.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> 50/50 or lead bar stock would have if you shined the shiot out of the copper and tinned it first. Lead is very malleable.
> 
> I still think it was an 'iffy' fix, though. I wouldn't have felt good walking away from it.
> 
> ...


I've been guilty of cutting too far a time or two. I've never gone THAT far though, either he has some super sawzall blades or he should have stopped sooner and checked what he was doing. Yeah 50/50 would have worked, I don't have any though. Can you even buy that at the wholesale house anymore? I assumed he used regular 95/5 or 100% lead free. That doesn't bond for shiot and brakes easily. 

I wouldn't feel good about walking away from it either. I've made a promise to myself that if I was going to run my own shop well I wouldn't leave a job with a repair that "might" hold or "should" hold, only one that will hold. If you could make a clampall fit, then your repair would be the easiest. If not, then it's open up the wall time.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> As unpopular as this may be to say, I close out about 90% of Dunbar's posts and walk away just shaking my head.


hmmm and i though you were the hard azz

I am about 99%


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

OldSchool said:


> hmmm and i though you were the hard azz
> 
> I am about 99%


I admire his ingenuity.

That's about as kind as I'm willing to be.

Sue me.


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## walker426 (Oct 17, 2011)

RW Plumbing said:


> Because solder isn't made to fill 1/4" gaps. What will happen when that joint cracks? Ever pulled a stub out and broke the solder joint on a hold rite bracket? Solder isn't very strong which is why fittings are cupped.
> 
> They solder flows all the way around the pipe, and that's what makes up the joint strength. I've seen repairs like that fail. Not saying Dunbar's will but I have seen it happen.
> 
> ...


Did u not read the part about soldering a piece of pipe over the cut


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