# Time to break the unions?



## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

What do you think?

I know that the non-union shops are way starting to out weight the union shops.

Do you think that there should be more or less unions shops?

Or should there be no plumbing union?

Seems like the unions guys work a lot less then non union shops as well.

I mean half of my plumbing career was walking past picket lines.......I thought it was always better to just work rather then stand with a sign...

Thoughts?


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Where do the large shops that do large projects like new high rises turn to for finding workers? Do you expect them to take on the expense of providing training and benefits to their employees? Or are you suggesting that those employees should have to provide their own benefits if they want something like health insurance? Perhaps you think that they should all become subcontractors to save the employer the hassle of deducting taxes?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I you don't like unions, don't join one.


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## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

All unions are is a temp service for new construction plumbers.

(not bashing, JMO)


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Where do the large shops that do large projects like new high rises turn to for finding workers? Do you expect them to take on the expense of providing training and benefits to their employees? Or are you suggesting that those employees should have to provide their own benefits if they want something like health insurance? Perhaps you think that they should all become subcontractors to save the employer the hassle of deducting taxes?



Are you saying that non union shops don't do what you listed?

That's just ludicrist, Come on....

So by the above statement your saying that non union shops do not only have the man power , but they don't pay taxes or provide health care?

Hmm.....I worked for all non union shops and always had health care, U just had to ask my boss.

We also had a 120+ man shop.......

And I think my boss also paid his taxes..

So what point are you trying to make?

Maybe I am missing something here?

I mean lets look at it this way.

Let's say "westcoastplumber" and "rockstar"

They are both non union licensed plumbers and provide for there family?

How would be a UNION shop benefit them?

Thats my question to you...

So if westcoast and rockstar and whoever else joined the union they would live better?

OK - SO why isn't everyone in the union?


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

It's tempting. But I don't think I'll take the bait on this one. :gunsmilie:


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

******* said:


> Are you saying that non union shops don't do what you listed?
> 
> That's just ludicrist, Come on....
> 
> ...


You're comparing one man shops to shops that employ 600+ plumbers?

I'm done talking to you, you can't even begin to grasp my point.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> You're comparing one man shops to shops that employ 600+ plumbers?
> 
> I'm done talking to you, you can't even begin to grasp my point.


I am asking how WHY a non union shop Vs a union shop is better or the other way around,

YOUR going off topic with the number of men a shop can employ, WHO CARES

*HERE IS THE QUESTION*

WHY OR HOW, can a non union shop benefit from becoming a union shop?


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

******* said:


> I am asking how WHY a non union shop Vs a union shop is better or the other way around,
> 
> YOUR going off topic with the number of men a shop can employ, WHO CARES
> 
> ...


The Plumbing Unions have the highest trained and educated plumbers there are. There is a big difference between a guy working in the trenches every day and a guy working in the trenches every day and then heading to school after work to learn the technical side of things. If you eliminate the Unions who is going to teach the skills the Unions are teaching now?

Mark


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

non union teachers?


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

******* said:


> non union teachers?


The Union Halls have the facilities and the Instructors to teach plumbing. It's not that there are not non-Union schools and teachers but there is no where near the number needed. If you ever get a chance, stop by the multi-million dollar facility the Las Vegas Pipe Fitters Union built and tell me what non-Union school could even come close at what they have at that facility.

Mark


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

******* said:


> non union teachers?


That's fine if you get the licensing body to accredit the schools they teach in and the procedures used, not as easy as may think.

Where is your labor pool? Here is a small example from my background, I used to run new high-rise work, in Monday's job meeting we are told that production has to ramped up to finish tower one so that financing can be secured to start tower two, so now I need twenty five trained journeymen plumbers by the end of the week to acheive this, if not for the union where do you get them? Are you proposing that guys with skills are going to sit at home waiting for shops to need help with no benefits for the time they are sitting?


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Hey listen,

I am not against unions in any way, and now I do see some valid points, 

The best way to learn is to debate ...pleasantly that is


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Don't forget about retirement. The unions have a great retirement plan.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

******* said:


> Hey listen,
> 
> I am not against unions in any way, and now I do see some valid points,
> 
> The best way to learn is to debate ...pleasantly that is


The union isn't the best alternative for everyone, most one man shops would be doing themselves a disservice by going union, as they would not profit from the union's strengths, which is why I lost patience with the discussion when you brought up the examples of Rockstar and Robert, which is an example that would not benefit from being union unless they were working in an area like Chicago.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Killertoiletspider said:


> The union isn't the best alternative for everyone, most one man shops would be doing themselves a disservice by going union, as they would not profit from the union's strengths, which is why I lost patience with the discussion when you brought up the examples of Rockstar and Robert, which is an example that would not benefit from being union unless they were working in an area like Chicago.


A one man shop can become a union and pay the monthly dues for himself. Health insurance (top notch plan), retirement, vacation savings, the ability to have apprentices trained, government contracts closed to non-union, etc, and the general labor pool of licensed plumbers. 

Trust me on this, guys, no matter how small, the union has much to offer.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Plumber said:


> A one man shop can become a union and pay the monthly dues for himself. Health insurance (top notch plan), retirement, vacation savings, the ability to have apprentices trained, government contracts closed to non-union, etc, and the general labor pool of licensed plumbers.
> 
> Trust me on this, guys, no matter how small, the union has much to offer.


I'm not saying they can't, my point was if they intend to remain a one man shop till they retire, they can structure things to suit them better than what the union is offering for the same net cost. I know a lot of guys that are one man shops, and a couple that are two brothers working together, some are union, some choose to go their own way.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Killertoiletspider said:


> I'm not saying they can't, my point was if they intend to remain a one man shop till they retire, they can structure things to suit them better than what the union is offering for the same net cost. I know a lot of guys that are one man shops, and a couple that are two brothers working together, some are union, some choose to go their own way.


Not the same net cost when compared line to line with other packages. 

Some of the finer points: 

The union doesn't arbitrarily changes rates. 
Most one man shops never think about retirement, vacation savings, etc.
The monthly dues for a one man shop turns into a no-brainer. The whole benefit package is taken care of by the union office. 
You can't be dropped from the insurance program.
The retirement is the strongest in the nation.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

I'll let some of the one man shows that are members here respond, I think you might be wrong, these guys know what suits them best.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I guess I'll chime in. I am a one-man union shop. This allows me to bid large jobs due to almost unlimited man-power. Then when things get slow they are sent back to the hall. 

2 of my large clients have international agreements with the labor unions to use their labor exclusively. If I wasn't union I would not be qualified to bid 90% of the jobs I go after. These are very profitable jobs.

Most of the time when I am contacted for a bid the first question asked is am I union. 

I can't comment on the benefits as I don't elect to pay them. I would rather invest my own money and buy my own health insurance. If owners take the health insurance they are required to pay on 40 hours per week every week even if they only work 2 hours that week.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It seems to vary with the state you are in. In Fl unions carry a smaller percent of the work force. Fl is a "right to work state". A journeymen's license is worth about as much as the paper it's written on here. All of the highest paid plumbers I know of are non-union. Benefits are better with the union, but you can put a dollar amount on benefits. If you make $7 more an hour non-union it will out weigh the benefits.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Its been a good discussion so far and lots of good points 

See now this is what I like to do on forums, fun arguments where everyone can learn !!

Thanks!


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> I guess I'll chime in. I am a one-man union shop. This allows me to bid large jobs due to almost unlimited man-power. Then when things get slow they are sent back to the hall.
> 
> 2 of my large clients have international agreements with the labor unions to use their labor exclusively. If I wasn't union I would not be qualified to bid 90% of the jobs I go after. These are very profitable jobs.
> 
> ...


What owner only works 2 hours a week? Even if you hit a slow time (the 2 hours?) and you're paying private insurance, you still have to pay. The union health insurance is far better with a 200.00 deductible, etc., than anything I can find here. They never questioned a single claim, either.

Unions are about benefits that stay with you during the course of your lifetime. The union is as loyal to you as anything is in a capitalistic economy....which means you have to pay the dues..



Protech said:


> It seems to vary with the state you are in. In Fl unions carry a smaller percent of the work force. Fl is a "right to work state". A journeymen's license is worth about as much as the paper it's written on here. All of the highest paid plumbers I know of are non-union. Benefits are better with the union, but you can put a dollar amount on benefits. If you make $7 more an hour non-union it will out weigh the benefits.


Unions are about benefits that stay with you during the course of your lifetime.

In a private shop, if you stay 30 years, what is your retirement? A worthless IRA or a pat on the back and a social security payment? Unions have retirement, man, that's a fact.

Face it, all plumbing shops have high turnover and a union allows you to take your paid-in benefits with you from shop to shop over the course of your lifetime. That is the best point for a trade union right there.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

That’s fine if you live by a pay check to pay check mentality. I make my own retirement.



Plumber said:


> What owner only works 2 hours a week? Even if you hit a slow time (the 2 hours?) and you're paying private insurance, you still have to pay. The union health insurance is far better with a 200.00 deductible, etc., than anything I can find here. They never questioned a single claim, either.
> 
> Unions are about benefits that stay with you during the course of your lifetime. The union is as loyal to you as anything is in a capitalistic economy....which means you have to pay the dues..
> 
> ...


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I was a one man, union shop. I elected out out of the retirement, but kept the insurance. If I lived in a bigger city, I would probably still be going. Living where I am at, all my competition was non-union. I smoked them on skill, quality, personal appearance, knowledge and finished product. But, I was charging 90 bucks an hour, and barely making ends meet, and these clowns were at 45 and 50. So guess who was busier? I was fixing stuff that their 2 man crews had spent hours on, properly diagnosing, ripping out their POS work and doing sweet installs while charging double their rate, but my tickets were lower than theirs. 
Sorry, off topic, for a second. I ended up going back to work for somebody else and last years I made 100K. Not a lot of OT, either. I doubt there are very non-union plumbers who aren't owners making that cake:thumbup:
I worked at a bunch of POS jobs, non-union till I got into the apprenticeship. So I am pro-union, pro-workingman. Unions have problems, sure, but they have done good for me and my family.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

It is because of organized labor(unions), that skilled tradesman are able to make the wages they are making today. They do have their problems, but at their core, unions just want what is fair for working men and women.


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## plumber1a (Jan 3, 2009)

Unions are a benefit to all trades, they provide qualified workmen and they are a business out to make money. They keep the pricing up there, so it's much easier for non-union to compete with, as an individual I'd be better off in the long run to work union, but having my own business is the next best step and I must put something away for the latter years, kind of like a union, but I have control of my money. Unions fight for the best deal for the workers and were necessary in the past, I don't feel they are as necessary as they use to be say 50 years ago, but without them the trades would be much worse off. Look to Mexico where you go to the town square to hire a trade, a man with a saw is a carpenter, the guy with the pipe wrench is a plumber, they often trade tools to keep busy, but the knowledge can't be simply exchanged. Unions force businesses to do certain things for their employees that in many cases non- union workers can only dream of.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

Unions aren't much interested in small, residential shops. But for commercial work or mechanical contractors, the union is the way to go.

Those who say we don't need unions haven't been around long. They can't remember when only one member needed to work to support a family. 60% of women are now in the work force - that wasn't true in the fifties and sixties. 

Plumbing varies all over the country. In some areas, plumbers do well. In other areas, they have more expenses or can't charge as much. Here in Idaho, we are reddest of the red - heavily conservative. Wages are at very low levels here compared with much of the nation. (Though probably not as bad as the rust belt.) I charge what I can, but nowhere near what I could get elsewhere. It doesn't really matter what it takes to run a business - if you charge what you think you should here, the phone won't ring, not with plumbers still charging $65/hr. 

I think that we all could benefit from unions, particularly if they were set up to handle small shops. If someone was expected to provide maybe $27 per hour and bennies to their journeymen, they'd certainly have to raise the rates. 

And I also think that we need unions across the board. That free market attempt to squash the unions has harmed the economy, not helped it.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Nice Post herk!!!

Thanks to killertoiletspider for some very good points as well,

I certainly saw a new light and many different sides to this


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Plumber said:


> What owner only works 2 hours a week? Even if you hit a slow time (the 2 hours?) and you're paying private insurance, you still have to pay. The union health insurance is far better with a 200.00 deductible, etc., than anything I can find here. They never questioned a single claim, either.
> 
> Unions are about benefits that stay with you during the course of your lifetime. The union is as loyal to you as anything is in a capitalistic economy....which means you have to pay the dues..quote]
> 
> ...


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## trick1 (Sep 18, 2008)

I'm sure that unions have their place. My father was involved with the local up here for a few years. I have to disagree with the mentality that every single union plumber is awesome and all non union guys are uneducated hacks. I've seen plenty of "side jobs" done by union guys that I've ripped apart, installed correctly and made ten times the price of the side job.

Let's face facts......whether you're union or non-union places no bearing on a skill set. If an individual wants to learn, they will learn regardless of union affiliation. 

I know some really sharp guys in the union...I also know people that can install underground with the best of them, but can't repair a faucet.

The union has some really great benefits and training programs, but I can attend any training that the union people can...'cause I choose to. I want to be the best that I can technically and business wise.

Is the union needed? In my opinion, sure. Does it mean that non-union contractors somehow lose out....NO WAY!


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

trick1 said:


> I'm sure that unions have their place. My father was involved with the local up here for a few years. I have to disagree with the mentality that every single union plumber is awesome and all non union guys are uneducated hacks. I've seen plenty of "side jobs" done by union guys that I've ripped apart, installed correctly and made ten times the price of the side job.


If you got that impression from me it was not intentional, I know some excellent plumbers that are not union members, and I have hired and fired many union guys that were as useless as a broken hammer, it's a two way street. 

Unions also have a reputation of protecting the underacheiver, which in a way is true, but strides have been made in many locals to weed this element out, and in this tight economy that effort merely gains momentmum.


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## trick1 (Sep 18, 2008)

No problem, not aimed at you at all. I should have been more clear. It was more of a generalzation from talking with people around here.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

If I were a non union plumber, the last thing in the world I'd want to do is break the union. High union wages float all boats. Non union plumbing wages in areas with a strong union presence are higher relative to the general population then in areas with little or no union plumbing activity. 
For non union contractors, the union does cause upward pressure on wages. But, it also does something else. If a union shop's costs dictate that they charge $125 for a service call a non union shop can make a good living charging $120 a call. Bid work generally plays out the same way. 
As alluded to in an earlier post, where the union with it's trained workforce has an advantage is in projects such as hospitals, manufacturing and power plants that demand numerous workers with skills not easily obtained on the job.
As a small union contractor (under 10 men), I have only two major beefs. One, wage creep (in the last 2 three year labor contracts the package has risen close to $20). Two, the innate intelligence and work ethic of the young people getting into the apprenticeship seems to be going down. It's as if plumbing as well as construction in general is losing status as a worthy occupation.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Plumbus said:


> It's as if plumbing as well as construction in general is losing status as a worthy occupation.


It is not limited to construction, all blue collar trades are seeing the same thing, when large manufacturers started shipping jobs out of the country to increase profit margins, they forced people to turn to jobs that did not require them to work with their hands. Over time the perception of people that worked with their hands for a living got lower and lower, and perception is reality. Nowadays kids don't want to be that guy that has to take a lowly blue collar job, they want to to work in the white collar segment, and it shows in their work ethic. 

This country lost a lot more than just manufacturing power when they ceased to be an industrial giant, it lost it's ability to instill pride in workmanship, when you build nothing what do you really have to show for your work at the end of the day?


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Plumbus said:


> ....Two, the innate intelligence and work ethic of the young people getting into the apprenticeship seems to be going down. It's as if plumbing as well as construction in general is losing status as a worthy occupation.


That may change IF there really is a recession instead of a correction. What I mean is that people will see the trades as what they are: a steady form of employment for the talented. Like every occupation there's bums. Look at the doctors and lawyers---full of bums.

Times like these I feel blessed to be able to earn more in a day than most do all week. One day a week is all I need to make my personal expenses and two days to make my business nut. Think I'm not recession-proof? You betcha I am.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

"Mr. Gorbachev, Tear that wall down" :laughing:


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