# But you were only here 30 minutes



## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

Had a call today. stopped up kitchen line. typical question how much do you charge. I tell him 90 dollars first hr. 75 every hour after that broken down into quarter hr increments. He says ok come on out. I get there open up the clog. It was a real easy one. Make up the bill and hand it to him.(127.50 ) He looks at it and says "but you were only here for 30 minutes.) I explain to him about travel time and fuel cost to and from the job. He says to me "so thats how you rip people off".  freaking jerks.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

It sounds to me that it is your fault for not making it clear that you charge for travel time. I would have been angry too if you hadn't explained it on the phone clearly.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

al said:


> Had a call today. stopped up kitchen line. typical question how much do you charge. I tell him 90 dollars first hr. 75 every hour after that broken down into quarter hr increments. He says ok come on out. I get there open up the clog. It was a real easy one. Make up the bill and hand it to him.(127.50 ) He looks at it and says "but you were only here for 30 minutes.) I explain to him about travel time and fuel cost to and from the job. He says to me "so thats how you rip people off".  freaking jerks.


I started asking the H.O. zipcode before i would give a price per Hr and include the travel time into the hourly rate. A zipcode tells me alot around here as to what to expect also when i get to a job. Some zipcodes I expect grinder pumps and in another zipcode you find alot of lead drain pipe,etc,etc. Alot of times I know whats wrong based on what the customer has told me and the part of town they live in. I'm not sure i would have paid you all the money if i was your customer either. he asked how much you charged and you left the part out about the gas and the travel time. When a customer calls on the phone and asks hourly rates and how you charge...all that should be explained to avoid conflict. I like to get the zipcode of the repair and then give an hourly rate...and then a total estimate of what the typical job like that costs in that part of town based on age of the houses and what is typically found installed in this area. It works well for me. keeps the sticker shock to a minimum.


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## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

Had one yesterday, water heater replacement. i'm at the supply when I get the call from the HO tells me WH has sprung a leak, so I give him a price to replace and he asks me "isn't that expensive?". I say that's how much it is and then he asks how much is just the WH. I tell him the price and he then asks where I get my WH from and wouldn't be cheaper just to go to HD...

I explain about getting what you pay for, not being able to give him a garentee because it's a POS...

He then asks if he were willing to take the chance on a HD WH would I be willing to put it in? I agree. But he doesn't have a HD close by and wants me to pick it up and not charge him for that time!

Says $85.00 an hour for driving is crazy.

So, I told him I am a plumber and I charge $85.00 an hour for my time whether I'm driving,cleaning windows, taking out the trash, or replacing a WH.

He ended up gong with the WH from the original quote:thumbup:


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

You told him 90 an hour for the first hour. 75 and hour after that but broken into quarters. That's pretty much self explanitory. It's not your fault he's an idiot and can't add. That's why I won't do service cuz of the bull sh*t like that. I'm happy with new construction, thank you.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

house plumber said:


> You told him 90 an hour for the first hour. 75 and hour after that but broken into quarters. That's pretty much self explanitory. It's not your fault he's an idiot and can't add. That's why I won't do service cuz of the bull sh*t like that. I'm happy with new construction, thank you.


Its not self-explanatory that he charges for travel time. Some plumbers do, some don't, but either way it is only fair to say so on the phone if you do.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

house plumber said:


> You told him 90 an hour for the first hour. 75 and hour after that but broken into quarters. That's pretty much self explanitory. It's not your fault he's an idiot and can't add. That's why I won't do service cuz of the bull sh*t like that. I'm happy with new construction, thank you.


 Not try to start anything but if I asked someone how much they charged and then told me 90 for the 1st hr and then 75 hr after that to unclogg my k-sink....and then the phone went silent......I would think that 1st hr would include the trip and thats why it costs more. I just think if someone asks you how much you charge the answer should be detailed and not leaving things out. It causes problems just like this one.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Not try to start anything but if I asked someone how much they charged and then told me 90 for the 1st hr and then 75 hr after that to unclogg my k-sink....and then the phone went silent......I would think that 1st hr would include the trip and thats why it costs more. I just think if someone asks you how much you charge the answer should be detailed and not leaving things out. It causes problems just like this one.


Exactly. Very poor business practice by not telling the customer beforehand about travel time. This is why I don't currently do T&M. You have to be VERY clear about when the clock "starts".


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

house plumber said:


> You told him 90 an hour for the first hour. 75 and hour after that but broken into quarters. That's pretty much self explanitory. It's not your fault he's an idiot and can't add. That's why I won't do service cuz of the bull sh*t like that. I'm happy with new construction, thank you.


 I agree with you that service plumbing is totally different and can be a pain in the butt too. When a repair guy does new construction he has a long list of complaints also. I dont do new construction because it puts me out in the weather all day everyday and contractors who like to negotiate after I'm done just because he didn't make as much money as he thought or says he cant pay me because the H.O hasn't paid them etc,etc. Bottom line is any business is a pain in the butt if you care about it.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Sorry, but I'm sitting here laughing and shaking my head reading this thread!:laughing:

I'm not laughing at anyone, just the situation. I had the same troubles years ago too. If you charge t&m for service work, fuel, driving time, blah blah blah you will always run into these problems. I don't care who you are or what part of the country you're in. In my opinion it's not worth the hassle. But then some don't mind, more power to them. If it works for them great!:thumbup:

I agree with Service Guy, I also no longer charge t&m for these exact reasons.:thumbsup:

I also never quote a price over the phone and I've never had anyone say they don't want me to come out then. When I'm there I diagnose the problem, write it up, have them sign it and go to work. It just doesn't get any simpler and they have no grounds for any argument.

Arguing with customers about a mile or two or 15 minutes would give me a freaking headache!


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

well I guess since I don't do service I don't know how the billing goes so i shouldn't have said anything. It just made sense to me. Sorry guys.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

house plumber said:


> well I guess since I don't do service I don't know how the billing goes so i shouldn't have said anything. It just made sense to me. Sorry guys.


 Ahhh come on man its not like that!!! I hear what your saying loud and clear!!! I might would agree on some days. I value your opinions!


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I like the show up fee. A lot of t&m shops use it also. It is easy for the customer to understand even if they dont like it. Some flat rate jobs go extremely fast and Im careful to read the customer when that happens. Usually agreeing with the customer--that went fast ....yes it did....or thats expensive...yes it is, disarms a bit .


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

stillaround said:


> I like the show up fee. A lot of t&m shops use it also. It is easy for the customer to understand even if they dont like it. Some flat rate jobs go extremely fast and Im careful to read the customer when that happens. Usually agreeing with the customer--that went fast ....yes it did....or thats expensive...yes it is, disarms a bit .



LOL, that's what I say too! They don't know what to say except when can you start! :thumbup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Customers can get you if they want to. its not good to leave customers feeling cheated wether you cheated them or not.....if they really feel they have been cheated then you could have a problem. I try to screen every customer....at the 1st sign of trouble...I'm gone! Sometimes they get you tho and theres no way around it. I will edit this post in a while.....I do not want to give anyone any ideas.


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

ironranger said:


> Sorry, but I'm sitting here laughing and shaking my head reading this thread!:laughing:
> 
> I'm not laughing at anyone, just the situation. I had the same troubles years ago too. If you charge t&m for service work, fuel, driving time, blah blah blah you will always run into these problems. I don't care who you are or what part of the country you're in. In my opinion it's not worth the hassle. But then some don't mind, more power to them. If it works for them great!:thumbup:
> 
> ...


So what you are saying I should have drove 30 miles to this house. went and looked at what he got,told him what it was going to cost. what if he said he would call someone else?then I just put 60 miles on my truck wasted 8 gallons of gas and an hour of my time and got nothing out of the deal.no thanks I will do my quotes over the phone. I live in a rural area most of my jobs are 25 to 50 miles away, I could never make any money that way. I tell them up front what I charge so they know what to expect. I also don't know any plumbers or any other trade or service provided in this area that does not charge travel time. On top of the travel time they even charge for fuel per mile. Also how can you tell how much a sewer stoppage is going to cost. You could be there for half and hour or you could be there all day. If you can look at a stopped sewer and tell the ho that you will have it working in 1 hr and ten minutes you are a better man than me. I am not trying to be an ass about this it just that it doesn't make sense to me. If I am wrong then so be it. I am pretty new to this. The fifth of july will mark my first year in business, so I am still learning. Another point i should probably make is that we have no plumbing code in this area so you have no idea what you are going to run into like the post I posted over the weekend where they had perimeter drains tied into the septic system. O k i'm done let me have it now.:laughing:


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## Song Dog (Jun 12, 2008)

This thread went into a little different direction, so I will follow. When they say wow thats expensive, I reply most of the time with, compared to?????acting like I am really curious, which I am.
If they say that was fast, I also reply with, well, with my experience and training things come 2nd nature and you can't put a pricetag on that.

In Christ,

Song Dog


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Song Dog said:


> This thread went into a little different direction, so I will follow. When they say wow thats expensive, I reply most of the time with, compared to?????acting like I am really curious, which I am.
> If they say that was fast, I also reply with, well, with my experience and training things come 2nd nature and you can't put a pricetag on that.
> 
> In Christ,
> ...


 I do too. I say sometimes that I just make it look easy--sometimes they are not humored. Or welcome to 2009, I often say Im with you I dont like to spend too much on anything..etc. Those silent moments get awkward. Just talking and being normal seems to help one skate by confrontations. I have a 100% satisfaction guarantee so I have to address any issues.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

hey song dog, what gun is that in your avatar?


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

al said:


> So what you are saying I should have drove 30 miles to this house. went and looked at what he got,told him what it was going to cost. what if he said he would call someone else?then I just put 60 miles on my truck wasted 8 gallons of gas and an hour of my time and got nothing out of the deal.no thanks I will do my quotes over the phone. I live in a rural area most of my jobs are 25 to 50 miles away, I could never make any money that way. I tell them up front what I charge so they know what to expect. I also don't know any plumbers or any other trade or service provided in this area that does not charge travel time. On top of the travel time they even charge for fuel per mile. Also how can you tell how much a sewer stoppage is going to cost. You could be there for half and hour or you could be there all day. If you can look at a stopped sewer and tell the ho that you will have it working in 1 hr and ten minutes you are a better man than me. I am not trying to be an ass about this it just that it doesn't make sense to me. If I am wrong then so be it. I am pretty new to this. The fifth of july will mark my first year in business, so I am still learning. Another point i should probably make is that we have no plumbing code in this area so you have no idea what you are going to run into like the post I posted over the weekend where they had perimeter drains tied into the septic system. O k i'm done let me have it now.:laughing:


I'm sure not going to let you have it Al :laughing:, it's different for all of us where we live. Once again I didn't tell you what to do, just what I do. What I do won't work for everyone and what you do won't work for me. I don't drive very far so I have the option of giving free estimates.

When I show up for a main sewer stoppage I give them the quote, once again on a written proposal. It's clearly stated on the proposal the price is for a normal stoppage. Meaning running the cable out to the street. If we find out it's something more they still pay the fee quoted, the job just moves to another level with an add on to the original proposal.



And.... Happy first year and many more to come!:thumbup:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

al said:


> So what you are saying I should have drove 30 miles to this house. went and looked at what he got,told him what it was going to cost. what if he said he would call someone else?then I just put 60 miles on my truck wasted 8 gallons of gas and an hour of my time and got nothing out of the deal.no thanks I will do my quotes over the phone. I live in a rural area most of my jobs are 25 to 50 miles away, I could never make any money that way. I tell them up front what I charge so they know what to expect. I also don't know any plumbers or any other trade or service provided in this area that does not charge travel time. On top of the travel time they even charge for fuel per mile. Also how can you tell how much a sewer stoppage is going to cost. You could be there for half and hour or you could be there all day. If you can look at a stopped sewer and tell the ho that you will have it working in 1 hr and ten minutes you are a better man than me. I am not trying to be an ass about this it just that it doesn't make sense to me. If I am wrong then so be it. I am pretty new to this. The fifth of july will mark my first year in business, so I am still learning. Another point i should probably make is that we have no plumbing code in this area so you have no idea what you are going to run into like the post I posted over the weekend where they had perimeter drains tied into the septic system. O k i'm done let me have it now.:laughing:


 You are way ahead of my growth in business. And Im not trying to patronize in any way because I respect where you are at --sometimes I dont quote the flat rate and just hit people with the bill. It is my risk but at times I think the price would flip their switch and I chance it --willing to negotiate if necessary. I could see myself not mentioning travel because when I quote flat and I feel like its getting high on the phone even tho I mentioned the show up fee 1st I dont repeat it with the price willing to work out the misunderstanding rather than lose the call. This may open me for criticism but as long as I have that 100% satisfaction thing going I know Ill always settle out ok. If I get burnt too many time Ill sure change my tactic.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

The only thing you did wrong is not tell the guy when the clock started and about the fuel charge. I wouldn't drive out 30 or 40 miles either to look at somthing either...nots not realistic. Price per hour when properly explained to the customer is the fairest way to do business. The customer pays for your time and materials. I'm refering to repair work only! The trick is to have your hourly rate set so you reap the profit you expect for the hours you invest. I went to my zipcode method. Different price per hour based on zipcode. The farther away the zipcode...the more the rate goes up. For two reasons.......For the 1st trip and then if theres a problem and I have to go back. So the farther the zip the more i charge per hour. I always give a customer who asks my rates an estimated total price for their repair 1st.....then if they ask how I came up with that,i say past experience and my rate of xx per hour. I never have a problem,although 95% of my business is repeat customers. That MAKES a huge difference!!!! great customers make your business almost run itself!!!! Pick who you work for wisely!!!!!!


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

By the way i usually give price shoppers a higher price than if they would just call me up and say come repair it. After the job if I like them i might knock some off...if i dont like them i charge the full amount. I really do not have a set way to do business. Thats like expecting a car dealer to treat every cusomter that comes on the lot the exact same way and thats not realistic. So i can play anyway the customer wants to play it. If I'm in the area I may go look at somthing for free......then I dont mind giving a firm price and you can bet that i add money for making that trip too. Going to give estimates is an easy way to see how the homeowner lives and how goofy they are and how much you think you can sqeeze outta them...not only to look at the job. Now thats the businessman in me talking. I know several ways to do business but for regular customers i dont pull out any tactics.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Driving time would go under "time" and the fuel should be figured into the hourly rate. xxx.00 per hour sir and the time starts when I start to your house and ends when I'm finished with your itemized bill. If fuel goes up....mark your material up...you cant give prices on that anyway site unseen and 99% of customers do not complain about material charges...its all about what they think your making and sticking in your pocket.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> By the way i usually give price shoppers a higher price than if they would just call me up and say come repair it. After the job if I like them i might knock some off...if i dont like them i charge the full amount. I really do not have a set way to do business. Thats like expecting a car dealer to treat every cusomter that comes on the lot the exact same way and thats not realistic. So i can play anyway the customer wants to play it. If I'm in the area I may go look at somthing for free......then I dont mind giving a firm price and you can bet that i add money for making that trip too. Going to give estimates is an easy way to see how the homeowner lives and how goofy they are and how much you think you can sqeeze outta them...not only to look at the job. Now thats the businessman in me talking. I know several ways to do business but for regular customers i dont pull out any tactics.



OH.... MY......

Please don't take offense master but I guess it really is true, we all do things a little, (a lot) different!

I've been running my shop for over 20 years, I could never run it like you do master. Everyone gets charged the same price from me I don't care who you are or what I think of you, if you're a slob or a neat freak, if you're black or white I don't care.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ironranger said:


> OH.... MY......
> 
> Please don't take offense master but I guess it really is true, we all do things a little, (a lot) different!
> 
> I've been running my shop for over 20 years, I could never run it like you do master. Everyone gets charged the same price from me I don't care who you are or what I think of you, if you're a slob or a neat freak, if you're black or white I don't care.


 It costs more to change a water heater in a 3 million dollar house than it does to change it in a dump. One slip and your replacing 5,000 worth of wall paper in the utility room........the other one you give the guy 50 bucks off and hes happy. The cost of doing business is not the same from job to job. You must consider the liability in the job. We have ran a shop for over 80 years.


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## cajunplumberjoe (Mar 26, 2009)

we run into the same thing around here. we charge a trip charge and we flat rate. only price over the phone is for the trip charge.however, if i feel h.o. is looking for the cheapest deal i tell them to keep calling. we lose some jobs because of this but its usually the jobs you wouldnt make money on anyway. but on a more negative note we have guys around here that quote a low hourly rate and then surprise the h.o. with a bill for hourly labor,drive time, enviromental fee,machine and cable charge,etc. In these cases i think the h.o. is getting ripped because they dont understand all of that until the plumber is finished.but i also have some h.o.s that accuse me of ripping them off even after we have quoted the job onsite and given a flatrate to do the work. so you and me and every other plumber is ripping them off as far as they are concerned no matter what method you use.but thats only a small handful of h.o.s that think like that.the rest are really good customers that are a pleasure to work for.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> It costs more to change a water heater in a 3 million dollar house than it does to change it in a dump. One slip and your replacing 5,000 worth of wall paper in the utility room........the other one you give the guy 50 bucks off and hes happy. The cost of doing business is not the same from job to job. You must consider the liability in the job. We have ran a shop for over 80 years.



I can honestly say I've never heard anyone say that before, it's a first for me. If it's the same job, same water heater, same parts, I charge exactly the same no matter how expensive the home is or if it's a dump, it doesn't matter to me.

I say we just have to agree to disagree about how we run shop ok, and leave it at that.:thumbsup:

Let's talk about something we can both agree on. Like to hunt or fish master?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

cajunplumberjoe said:


> we run into the same thing around here. we charge a trip charge and we flat rate. only price over the phone is for the trip charge.however, if i feel h.o. is looking for the cheapest deal i tell them to keep calling. we lose some jobs because of this but its usually the jobs you wouldnt make money on anyway. but on a more negative note we have guys around here that quote a low hourly rate and then surprise the h.o. with a bill for hourly labor,drive time, enviromental fee,machine and cable charge,etc. In these cases i think the h.o. is getting ripped because they dont understand all of that until the plumber is finished.but i also have some h.o.s that accuse me of ripping them off even after we have quoted the job onsite and given a flatrate to do the work. so you and me and every other plumber is ripping them off as far as they are concerned no matter what method you use.but thats only a small handful of h.o.s that think like that.the rest are really good customers that are a pleasure to work for.


 We had a guy here that did flat rate....he would go around town collecting trip charges all day and giving estimates so high that he only did about 4 jobs a week the rest of the time he was going to pick up checks for "looking". The few jobs he did get was from idiots that paid double for the same job from another plumber. thats why they never are sucessful here.....everybody in town thinks they are a rip off.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

When they say, wow that was fast, I say thanks, and dont feel bad, I can't work on boat motors.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ironranger said:


> I can honestly say I've never heard anyone say that before, it's a first for me. If it's the same job, same water heater, same parts, I charge exactly the same no matter how expensive the home is or if it's a dump, it doesn't matter to me.
> 
> I say we just have to agree to disagree about how we run shop ok, and leave it at that.:thumbsup:
> 
> Let's talk about something we can both agree on. Like to hunt or fish master?


Ever check the difference between liability insurance for 1 million dollars vs 3 million liability insurance? The cost of working in fine homes comes with a fine price tag. Thats my logic behind why its costs more money to work in fine homes vs a dump in a trailer park. Because it actually does cost you more. Love deep sea fishing! Killing rats!!!!


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Ever check the difference between liability insurance for 1 million dollars vs 3 million liability insurance? The cost of working in fine homes comes with a fine price tag. Thats my logic behind why its costs more money to work in fine homes vs a dump in a trailer park. Because it actually does cost you more. Love deep sea fishing! Killing rats!!!!



I did a lot of deep sea fishing when I lived near the coast in northern Ca., fished mostly for salmon and cod but on occasion when the water was warmer the tuna would come in.
I hunt big whitetails up here, I live for it. I'll have to show you some pictures one of these days.


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## cajunplumberjoe (Mar 26, 2009)

when i hired a new guy from one of the other shops in town he was used to doing it t&m . after he did the first couple of calls he said we were about the same price as old shop and less expensive on many jobs using flatrate. flatrate can be used wrong,but when used correctly everybody wins:customer,shop,hourly plumber. i have seen shops use flatrate to screw a h.o. over.but i see some t&m guys do the same thing. i can see the pros and cons of both sides.i think it all boils down to the integrity of the owner. some garages use t&m others use flatrate.not trying to sell flatrate but it works for us here. i would love to go back to t&m but i didnt like the hassle.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ironranger said:


> I did a lot of deep sea fishing when I lived near the coast in northern Ca., fished mostly for salmon and cod but on occasion when the water was warmer the tuna would come in.
> I hunt big whitetails up here, I live for it. I'll have to show you some pictures one of these days.


 We have whitetail deer here but i dont hunt them.....I love salmon!!! its my favorite. Theres a place here that flly's it in from salmon country everyday. its super expensive tho here. I fish for mahi mahi,amberjack,trigger fish,red snapper,etc. inshore i fish for flounder,redfish. fresh water we do bass,catfish,crappie(bream) . I do flounder fishing with a propane gaslight at night and walk through the water about knee high out on an island in the middle of the Gulf of mexico. We go out there and camp. and walk and gig flounder with a spear. catch blue crab too


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## cajunplumberjoe (Mar 26, 2009)

master, best vacation we ever had was in alabama.gulf shores i think.nice beaches-fishing license way too high.back home-**** hunting,deer and hog. after the leaves fall in january we take my feist dog and annihilate squirrels.if you havent hunted w/ a treeing walker or feist you are missing out.3 or 4 guys one little dog and a box of shotgun shellsfor every hunter. a blast. now anyone from around here that sees this will know me.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

cajunplumberjoe said:


> when i hired a new guy from one of the other shops in town he was used to doing it t&m . after he did the first couple of calls he said we were about the same price as old shop and less expensive on many jobs using flatrate. flatrate can be used wrong,but when used correctly everybody wins:customer,shop,hourly plumber. i have seen shops use flatrate to screw a h.o. over.but i see some t&m guys do the same thing. i can see the pros and cons of both sides.i think it all boils down to the integrity of the owner. some garages use t&m others use flatrate.not trying to sell flatrate but it works for us here. i would love to go back to t&m but i didnt like the hassle.


 Most of my customers use me becuase they trust me.....I could probably charge any kind of way and still have business. You can price yourself out of work both ways if your not careful. use what makes you the most money.


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## cajunplumberjoe (Mar 26, 2009)

o.k. money talk is over i am ready to go hunting.not trying to hijack a thread.


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## leak1 (Mar 25, 2009)

if you cant dazzel them with your charm then baffel them with bullshiot!


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

Thanks for the feed back guys.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

We were a T&M company and priced the way so many other compnies do and that is charge a travel time from your last job until you finished the current job. 

With the travel charges. breakdown of material, tax and labor you will always be getting complaints. It was nothing to have 1/2 dozen or more complaints a week about pricing.

In 2002 that all changed we went flat rate and have not performed one job T&M since then. Complaints, sure we still get them, but it s usually before the work is done and not after.

We have a dispatch fee that is waived if we perform the quoted work or we will also apply it if the client calls back and has the work done with in 2 weeks of the quote. The jobs that we don't do and collect just the dispatch fee amount to less than 1.5% of sales, which tells us we are probably too cheap and need to go up on prices eventho we are on the top end of the pricing scale. Our dispatch fee is based on the distance we have to drive adn if it is outside of our zone 1 we will waive the zoen 1 fee and add the balance of the dispatch fee to the invoice, becasue of the extra driving distance.

I think a lot of people do not understand how flat rate pricing works. Everyone should pay the same for the same type of job wether they be blue, green or red, drive a Maserati or a Yugo or live on different sides of the track.

Look at your average time to do a particular job and base your pricing on that. Sure you will probably lose on some, but overall you will be ahead if your pricing is right.

As far as stoppages go we aren't going to get ourselves in a situation that we are going to leave empty handed because we said we were going to unstop a line nd for some reason we are unable to. That is why we always quote it as an "attempt to unstop".

Don't think flat rate pricing won't work in your area, because it will. Other Plumbers said the same thing when we started, but for some reason more and more of them are doing it, although I don't agree with the way some do it.

The biggest obstacle to overcome in going flat rate is convincing the owner of the company.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> It costs more to change a water heater in a 3 million dollar house than it does to change it in a dump. One slip and your replacing 5,000 worth of wall paper in the utility room........the other one you give the guy 50 bucks off and hes happy. The cost of doing business is not the same from job to job. You must consider the liability in the job. We have ran a shop for over 80 years.


How much more does it it cost to change the water heater in a 3 million dollar home compared to a "dump" if they are the same size heater?

I would think the water heater install would be the same price and then you would have add ons for additonal floor and wall protection or a helper if needed.

By the way we have only been in business a little over 60 years and still learning.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Associated Plum said:


> I think a lot of people do not understand how flat rate pricing works. Everyone should pay the same for the same type of job wether they be blue, green or red, drive a Maserati or a Yugo or live on different sides of the track.


The flip side is that no two jobs are ever exactly alike. One job may be further from the shop, the million dollar homeowner could be a royal PITA, the trailer owner helps you carry the water heater out, etc. When we bid a job where the customer wants to supply everything, our labor rate is higher due to the increased liability. If we have trouble or damage a product we purchased, our suppplier will work with us. If we damage a HO's product, we a liable at the retail level. All of this is taken into consideration. It's not based on anyone's income or ability to pay per se. Sometimes working in the trailer is done at a premium. Filthy conditions call for higher pricing.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> When they say, wow that was fast, I say thanks, and dont feel bad, I can't work on boat motors.


 
Bring the motor to me. I was thinking of working on boats instead of plumbing. :laughing: At least to me it's a sure fire way to get paid. I fix, you pay, you get it back. If you can't pay, then I have possession of your equipment. Can't do that in plumbing. :whistling2:


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> The flip side is that no two jobs are ever exactly alike. One job may be further from the shop, the million dollar homeowner could be a royal PITA, the trailer owner helps you carry the water heater out, etc. When we bid a job where the customer wants to supply everything, our labor rate is higher due to the increased liability. If we have trouble or damage a product we purchased, our suppplier will work with us. If we damage a HO's product, we a liable at the retail level. All of this is taken into consideration. It's not based on anyone's income or ability to pay per se. Sometimes working in the trailer is done at a premium. Filthy conditions call for higher pricing.


But then would you not have add on tasks for situation like that?

What I am saying is that if you replace neighbors water heaters and you charge one more than the other and they compare prices what arguement would you have if you only state on the invoice "installation of water heater" for the difference in price.

If the client wants to furnish the material that is fine with us, as we have client supplied material tasks, which also covers the profit lost on the material sale.

Just because someone is a PITA, I do not think that justifies charging them more. After that job is finished just don't work for them anymore.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I didnt see anything alarming in Masters comments . In fact it sounds like he takes care of his regular customers with integrity. Im a flat rater but the problem with trying to understand what someone means requires an explanation of what they dont mean-and that gets laborious. Also, not leaving a customer mad was good fodder.
Charging more in a 3 mil home may send a flag up for the purity of all men created equal but its not unethical if the customer is happy with the outcome and is probably smart. Its no different than building a contingency percentage in the pricing that blankets everyone for the sake of a few issues. Since its his business he decides to target whoever he wants.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Associated Plum said:


> How much more does it it cost to change the water heater in a 3 million dollar home compared to a "dump" if they are the same size heater?
> 
> I would think the water heater install would be the same price and then you would have add ons for additonal floor and wall protection or a helper if needed.
> 
> By the way we have only been in business a little over 60 years and still learning.


 If I have to carry more insurance to work in multi million dollar homes then that cost will be passed on to the multi-million dollar home owner. You say the cost of replacing the heater should be the same.....but then you add on costs........well that doesn't make it the same does it? It costs more to operate a business with 3 million liability insurance than with 1 million liability insurance. The guy in the trailer park should not hafta help pay that extra insurance....when only a handful are the reason I must carry it.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> If I have to carry more insurance to work in multi million dollar homes then that cost will be passed on to the multi-million dollar home owner. You say the cost of replacing the heater should be the same.....but then you add on costs........well that doesn't make it the same does it? It costs more to operate a business with 3 million liability insurance than with 1 million liability insurance. The guy in the trailer park should not hafta help pay that extra insurance....when only a handful are the reason I must carry it.


 
Maybe your insurance is different, but we only carry 1 policy to cover all of the properties we go in. So I quess if your carrying 2 or more liability policies I can see where that you would charge more. 

The final bill may not be the same, but the installation of the water heater is.

I'm done. You can have the last word


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

If you are flatrate, its easy. A flat fee to come out and then quote the job when you get there and see it.

If you are hourly, there are 2 simple ways to handle things. *1) Have a flat fee to cover the drive time to come out, and then start the clock when you arrive on site.* This way is the best and most upfront imo.
2) Start the clock when you start driving to the home, but imo this will cause problems because the customer has to trust you to be honest about how long it took to get to their house...they have no way of knowing. 

3) The third way isn't right at all, the way that was done that started this thread. I don't think its fair to charge by the hour for drive time *without disclosing that information to the client beforehand!*:no:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

service guy said:


> If you are flatrate, its easy. A flat fee to come out and then quote the job when you get there and see it.
> 
> If you are hourly, there are 2 simple ways to handle things. *1) Have a flat fee to cover the drive time to come out, and then start the clock when you arrive on site.* This way is the best and most upfront imo.
> 2) Start the clock when you start driving to the home, but imo this will cause problems because the customer has to trust you to be honest about how long it took to get to their house...they have no way of knowing.
> ...


 They also have know way of knowing if you dropped ball bearings down a water pipe at their house either....they trust that your honest or they shouldn't be doing business with you. I have a GPS that backs my start time up....and also the phone record were i called them...to verify they are home and ready. That way if they want me their at a specific time like during rush hour....they will pay the extra time it takes to get there. I've never had a problem. If a customer wants to complain about a bill they will find a reason....I think we all can agree on that. :yes: I can usually tell the ones that will complain,just by talking to them.:yes: I hope everybody on here is making money...i dont care really how you do it:thumbsup: Do what comes easiest for you and in your area!!!! I offer personal service and have good customers for the most part.....they usually dont ask prices to shop...they just want to make sure they have enough money to do the job and pay me!!!!:thumbsup:


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

I like these threads. The discussions that ensue help me make better business decisions, and I hope for all of you also.:thumbsup:

P.S. This thread should be moved to the "Business" section imo, as it really isn't about general plumbing, but about service pricing.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> If I have to carry more insurance to work in multi million dollar homes then that cost will be passed on to the multi-million dollar home owner. You say the cost of replacing the heater should be the same.....but then you add on costs........well that doesn't make it the same does it? It costs more to operate a business with 3 million liability insurance than with 1 million liability insurance. The guy in the trailer park should not hafta help pay that extra insurance....when only a handful are the reason I must carry it.


3 mil or whatever in insurance is a cost of doing business. Every client should pay for overhead. Doesn't matter if you "need" it at that particular location or not.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> 3 mil or whatever in insurance is a cost of doing business. Every client should pay for overhead. Doesn't matter if you "need" it at that particular location or not.


 So if I have a customer that has a 5 million dollar house and hafta call my insurance company and get a rider policy for that residence...then i shouldn't charge that customer for that???? Sure i should and it shouldn't be added to everyones bill...just that one guy who has all the liability. Contractors do it all the time......I have a friend that works in hospitals.....the liability is so high for hospital work that he charges for insurance for those jobs!!!!!! Its a cost of business but i do not feel like EVERYONE should have to pay it. We just have fundemental difference in opinion and thats ok. I understand your point of view and respect that.:thumbsup:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I agree with themaster's view on the subject.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Associated Plum said:


> But then would you not have add on tasks for situation like that?
> 
> What I am saying is that if you replace neighbors water heaters and you charge one more than the other and they compare prices what arguement would you have if you only state on the invoice "installation of water heater" for the difference in price.
> 
> ...


Add-ons can cover the business that uses flat rate. All I'm saying is that every job is different. We all sell jobs for the price we are willing to do them for. 

PITA customers - I phrased that incorrectly. They are not charged more, rather nice customers are given more discounts, breaks etc.

The other day we had a call from an 87 year old woman who reported a leak under her home. She had been crawling around in her crawl space. She was sweet as could be and we did a few extra things for her for nothing because she was so nice.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Add-ons can cover the business that uses flat rate. All I'm saying is that every job is different. We all sell jobs for the price we are willing to do them for.
> 
> PITA customers - I phrased that incorrectly. They are not charged more, rather nice customers are given more discounts, breaks etc.
> 
> The other day we had a call from an 87 year old woman who reported a leak under her home. She had been crawling around in her crawl space. She was sweet as could be and we did a few extra things for her for nothing because she was so nice.


 I give old people breaks all the time......I even grab trash cans for them and change light bulbs...free. People love personal service!!!! i have great customers!!!95% repeat business here!


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## UnclogNH (Mar 28, 2009)

I flat rate my small drains. But where I live some times I have to travel like 60 miles I explain to the HO owner I can help you the drains X and Fuel is extra due to your area of travel. Never really had a problem

Sewers are T&M. I explain to Ho there is a minimum. Depending where you live possible fuel charge for long distance. Drive time is figured into job Plus hourly if your drain requires more work not all homes are the same. All explained over phone. Don't get much complaints some say to much but end up calling back after other quotes.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I charge time and material but I do have a minimum!!!! I dont just bill straight time and material!!!! I have a service call of $85. That includes one way travel time and the remaining for work and to make the invoice. and its the same by the 1/4 hr after that. If I need parts they pay me to go get them. never had a problem with a customer that wasn't looking for a problem. For the very few that question it...a 2 minute explaination usually clears that up. very rare with me. material is itemized.....I also charge for shop supplies if used like.....pipe dope,teflon,solder,flux,etc on one line grouped together as a unit flat rate!!!!!:yes:


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

I had 2. One was I had to travel 1-1/2 hours for a broken water main sut off valve. When I got there it was a 2" pipe with a gate valve. I turned it 1/2 a turn and the water stoped. Explained to the farmer that a 2" gate valve has a lot of travel to it.

#2 was for a woman with a stoped toilert, I went there and thumped the plunger once and the toidy went down. She raised cain because she tried for hours and could not do it.


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## Roger (Jul 4, 2009)

*Flat Rate The Only Way To Go!!*

We never quote prices over the phone, you're not going to get the job anyway unless your the absolute lowest price in town. We quote a $49 trip charge to get the plumber out to look the job over. He will then give you a upfront flat rate price to do the job. If we do the work then the trip charge is waved. If not you only pay the $49. This script seems to weed out the price shopper & lessen the dry runs. 



al said:


> Had a call today. stopped up kitchen line. typical question how much do you charge. I tell him 90 dollars first hr. 75 every hour after that broken down into quarter hr increments. He says ok come on out. I get there open up the clog. It was a real easy one. Make up the bill and hand it to him.(127.50 ) He looks at it and says "but you were only here for 30 minutes.) I explain to him about travel time and fuel cost to and from the job. He says to me "so thats how you rip people off".  freaking jerks.


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