# what would you do in this situation??



## triadplumber (Jul 14, 2012)

so the company i work for just went union, which i'm grateful for because the benefits and steady work. I'm about to finish up my current apprenticeship term, i told my boss to give him a heads-up but he tells me i will have to wait to get my entitled union pay increase because the company going union is costing him a lot of money.

i really don't want to talk to the union about this because i'm afraid it might ruin our relationship, i like working for him hes an easy going boss. i met his family and stuff, i kind of envisioned me working for him for a long time as the company grows. but in the other hand i think i deserve my entitled raise because i take pride in the quality of my work and i been told i know my stuff in the short amount of time i been in this trade. i'm doing kinds of work most company have licensed or close to licensed plumbers are doing. 

but i also think hes taking advantage of me because i never once ask him for an raise whereas the other guys nag him for raises. i know for a fact if he tells the other workers to wait for the raise they will leave in an heartbeat.

what would you do? speak up or hold your tongue?


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## PinkPlumber (May 20, 2012)

triadplumber said:


> so the company i work for just went union, which i'm grateful for because the benefits and steady work. I'm about to finish up my current apprenticeship term, i told my boss to give him a heads-up but he tells me i will have to wait to get my entitled union pay increase because the company going union is costing him a lot of money.
> 
> i really don't want to talk to the union about this because i'm afraid it might ruin our relationship, i like working for him hes an easy going boss. i met his family and stuff, i kind of envisioned me working for him for a long time as the company grows. but in the other hand i think i deserve my entitled raise because i take pride in the quality of my work and i been told i know my stuff in the short amount of time i been in this trade. i'm doing kinds of work most company have licensed or close to licensed plumbers are doing.
> 
> ...



If it was me, I'd suck it up and be grateful for a job in these hard times....some of what you receive as a benefit, is your training. Don't take it for granted. Once you complete the apprenticeship, you can make more decisions.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

If I were you I woud post an intro!:yes:


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

triadplumber said:


> entitled


:whistling2:


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## triadplumber (Jul 14, 2012)

MarkToo said:


> :whistling2:


in the union are you not suppose to get a raise for each term you finish?? i'm pretty sure you are


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

triadplumber said:


> in the union are you not suppose to get a raise for each term you finish?? i'm pretty sure you are


Post an intro please,

If you do not have the union card you are not union. Not being a dyck. just saying the truth


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## triadplumber (Jul 14, 2012)

affordabledrain said:


> Post an intro please,
> 
> If you do not have the union card you are not union. Not being a dyck. just saying the truth


this is my working card not union card...


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

My friend even in bat country you must post an intro!:laughing:


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I guess I am confused. If the company did not join the union you would not be entitled to the raise?

I am not sure I like the word entitled or mandated. I love the word merit. When he joined the Union you guys did in essence receive a huge raise with the bennies that are soon to follow. Read up on attitude of gratitude.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Let it ride, enjoy your apprenticeship. To be honest, your not in a position of leverage. 

Going Union and receiving the better money and pay ought to be enough. 



It has always been a curious thing to me when I hear a person talk about being entitled or due a raise.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

One thing about the owner going Union, give him a hard time, and he can trade you in. There are prolly a lot of good hands on the bench these days.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

SlickRick said:


> One thing about the owner going Union, give him a hard time, and he can trade you in. There are prolly a lot of good hands on the bench these days.



Any person who thinks they are indispensable needs to be taught otherwise.


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

Me after two years at the plumbing shop: can I haz a raise?

Plumber: hands me a ladder and points at scudle hole. :no:


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## triadplumber (Jul 14, 2012)

SlickRick said:


> One thing about the owner going Union, give him a hard time, and he can trade you in. There are prolly a lot of good hands on the bench these days.


the company actually needs a few more guys to keep up with the jobs but the owner doesn't want random people from the union, he only wants people he trusts/knows in the company. i been with this company through all the lows, and we had quite a bit. 

just because i want the raise i was expecting to receive for finishing my term doesnt mean i'm not thankful for a good job. i'm sure lots of you guys would want more money as well, who doesnt?


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

I am in the want more moey camp


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

triadplumber said:


> the company actually needs a few more guys to keep up with the jobs but the owner doesn't want random people from the union, he only wants people he trusts/knows in the company. i been with this company through all the lows, and we had quite a bit.
> 
> just because i want the raise i was expecting to receive for finishing my term doesnt mean i'm not thankful for a good job. i'm sure lots of you guys would want more money as well, who doesnt?


Of course everybody WANTS more money. It is your reference to being "entitled" that is meeting with some resistance. You are entitled to work for what you were promised. You are entitled to go work somewhere else.

Your raise will become effective when you do.


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

triadplumber said:


> just because i want the raise i was expecting to receive for finishing my term doesnt mean i'm not thankful for a good job.


Really? 

Your first post here and you clearly stated you feel he's taking advantage of you - AND you indicate you were giving him a heads up (I have to assume you mean aren't quite "entitled" to the raise yet, just priming him the the big day).

You can take what I say or tell me to shove it - I don't care either way but given where you're at in your short career so far, I'd focus less on what you feel you're entitled to and learn what you should so that you can actually be an asset to any company or yourself.

Getting yourself caught up in the "Well those are the rules", mentality will get you a good hourly rate but you'll spend enough time on the bench that it won't matter.


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## PinkPlumber (May 20, 2012)

triadplumber said:


> the company actually needs a few more guys to keep up with the jobs but the owner doesn't want random people from the union, he only wants people he trusts/knows in the company. i been with this company through all the lows, and we had quite a bit.
> 
> just because i want the raise i was expecting to receive for finishing my term doesnt mean i'm not thankful for a good job. i'm sure lots of you guys would want more money as well, who doesnt?



As another poster said before....which was an excellent point...you ARE NOT in a position of leverage. Slow down and do what you are told for now, rather than forcing the issue. Part of being an apprentice is putting up with BS, and what feels like unfair treatment. You WILL not be treated the same as licensed coworkers....you will not make what they do, and will be given the crap duties. It's all part of training...think of it as boot camp...whine now, and you're showing signs of weakness....suck it up and deal with it.....it can't be rushed, but it can be shut down on you in a heartbeat.
Apprentices are a dime a dozen....remember that, and toe the line until you are worth something more.

My apprenticeship was pure hell...and I loved every minute of it.:thumbup:


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

I got given a raise this week was pretty sweet didnt even have too ask was told instead! So I didnt refuse!:thumbup:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I just gave everybody a $ 2.00 an hour raise

Now they are all making $ 4.00 an hour


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> I just gave everybody a $ 2.00 an hour raise
> 
> Now they are all making $ 4.00 an hour


Wow those guys will definately buy you lunch now at Safeway!:laughing:


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## PinkPlumber (May 20, 2012)

Lunch at Safeway?


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

PinkPlumber said:


> Lunch at Safeway?


Its pretty good and affordable! The deli has a soup and sandwhich area at the Safeway supermarket!


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## PinkPlumber (May 20, 2012)

pilot light said:


> Its pretty good and affordable! The deli has a soup and sandwhich area at the Safeway supermarket!


Down here we have Piggly Wiggly:thumbup:


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

Im going home and demanding a raise. Hope it goes over as well as me feeling i desserve it.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

triadplumber said:


> ...just because i want the raise i was expecting to receive for finishing my term doesnt mean i'm not thankful for a good job....


Just so I understand, you are supposed to get a raise just because you hung on and didn't get fired? Is that what you mean by getting a raise for finishing your term? :blink:


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## triadplumber (Jul 14, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> Just so I understand, you are supposed to get a raise just because you hung on and didn't get fired? Is that what you mean by getting a raise for finishing your term? :blink:


no because for my quality of work, honesty and making the site goes smoothly when hes not around. the other guys are always on their phones when the boss is not around, i'm not. i could easily leave and come an hour early/late and no one would know, but i dont cause thats the person i am.


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## PinkPlumber (May 20, 2012)

triadplumber said:


> no because for my quality of work, honesty and making the site goes smoothly when hes not around. the other guys are always on their phones when the boss is not around, i'm not. i could easily leave and come an hour early/late and no one would know, but i dont cause thats the person i am.



Continue being the ethical person/worker you are....it will take you far one day when you go out on your own. Until then, sadly, someone owns you and your good work....that's why they PAY you and give you free training.:yes:


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

If you don't mind me asking what year apprentice are you and what percentage of journeyman scale is he paying you? Is that what the union contract says? If it is what the contract says you have absolutely no legal ground to stand on. 
If you feel your work, behavior, attitude and ethics merit a raise above your contracted scale than you will most likely have to speak up as most bosses feel that paying scale is fair. After all scale is designed to be fair to the employee no matter what.
I often feel that I am worth more than scale and one of these days I will start my own shop and prove it! Until then I make a good living for what I do!


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## triadplumber (Jul 14, 2012)

deerslayer said:


> If you don't mind me asking what year apprentice are you and what percentage of journeyman scale is he paying you? Is that what the union contract says? If it is what the contract says you have absolutely no legal ground to stand on.
> If you feel your work, behavior, attitude and ethics merit a raise above your contracted scale than you will most likely have to speak up as most bosses feel that paying scale is fair. After all scale is designed to be fair to the employee no matter what.
> I often feel that I am worth more than scale and one of these days I will start my own shop and prove it! Until then I make a good living for what I do!


right now i'm at 60% of journeyman wage, in union rules its suppose to jump to 70% when i'm done my term.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

I would make casual mention of it and if he doesn't give the raise then you are faced with dropping it or going to the union. Or you can say nothing and if he lays you off or p's you off take your stubs in and he will have to pay arears.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

I think its good too be still turning the wrenches these days! I think the whole industry has felt it! I take it you are young and this may be new to you! When there is a boom there are no workers and lots of work so its open season and when it goes bust you got lots of workers and no work! I started in 1997 so I never fully understood when the old timers told me about the early 1980's! But I was 8 in 1982 so I remember a little! :thumbsup:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

triadplumber said:


> right now i'm at 60% of journeyman wage, in union rules its suppose to jump to 70% when i'm done my term.


What is all this "done my term" stuff mean?

It sounds like finishing a certain amount of time, right?


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## triadplumber (Jul 14, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> What is all this "done my term" stuff mean?
> 
> It sounds like finishing a certain amount of time, right?


in canada your apprenticeship is divided into 5 terms each 1800 hours



pilot light said:


> I think its good too be still turning the wrenches these days! I think the whole industry has felt it! I take it you are young and this may be new to you! When there is a boom there are no workers and lots of work so its open season and when it goes bust you got lots of workers and no work! I started in 1997 so I never fully understood when the old timers told me about the early 1980's! But I was 8 in 1982 so I remember a little! :thumbsup:


here in Ontario, there is a huge boom in condos. condos have been going up downtown like wildfire. how is the condo scenes in the states?


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

triadplumber said:


> in canada your apprenticeship is divided into 5 terms each 1800 hours
> 
> 
> 
> here in Ontario, there is a huge boom in condos. condos have been going up downtown like wildfire. how is the condo scenes in the states?


 Then just ask for a raise! Good God! If you think you are underpaid and that good go for it! I learnt along time ago the more money you make the more they expect out of you! Which is great but sometimes you are overpaid and lack the experiance, seen lots of guys get in over their heads this way! I usually accept my role and try to play it the best I can! Then when they ask me too step up I shrug my shoulders and say sure! This way they know I may be in over my head but am willing to try! Taught a few apprentices this way they are eager to try but understand there role!


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

In my area if there is union talk, the owners will just fire everyone and start from scratch.......


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

triadplumber said:


> in canada your apprenticeship is divided into 5 terms each 1800 hours...


Exactly!

So what you are saying in effect is that since you made it through your next 1800 hour term without getting your head lopped off, that you deserve more money. And what I am saying is that is a load of crap.

This is (in my never-to-be-humble opinion) one of the biggest fallacies with many Organized environments. The idea that you deserve a certain amount of money based solely on tenure weakens your company and lowers your value as an employee.

With all due respect to what you think is fair in this world, you really need to get over this term issue as it relates to your pay. Like PL said, if you honestly think you are worth more money than you are receiving, then ask for it. HOWEVER, if even one penny of that reason has ANYTHING to do with the fact that you made it through another term, you might want to keep all this raise malarky to yourself.

I really do hope the best for you but you sound like you are off base on this.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

......


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## thepmac (Apr 26, 2011)

First let me start by stating that i don't post here often, but I read this forum weekly and have learned a lot from you folks.

I'm not sure about Ontario law, but Alberta law dictates that you must be paid a certain percentage of journeyman rate based on the year of your apprenticeship. 50% for first year, 60% second, 70% third, 80% fourth and then you must be paid at least the company's full journeyman rate once your apprenticeship is completed. no exceptions. So if you are not being paid the appropriate rate, your employer is in fact breaking the law.

HOWEVER, you employer is not obligated to keep you as an employee under any circumstance. We are considered 'seasonal workers' here in Alberta, meaning we can be laid off without reason and not nessecarily hired back to fill any new positions.

My point being, you may be legally entitled to your raise, but that doesn't nessecarily mean your employer thinks you are worth the money. We let countless apprentices go to school knowing full well that they are not worth the pay raise when they come out. You have to earn your pay scale, and if you don't, don't expect to be around long.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

TallCoolOne said:


> In my area if there is union talk, the owners will just fire everyone and start from scratch.......


That's illegal, and if someone goes to the NLRB with it he will be out of business unless he can afford to pay backpay to everyone that was unlawfully terminated.


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## knuckles (Dec 16, 2011)

Our union sends out notices to the employers informing them of your upcoming change in pay. There are also audits of the payroll to verify they are paying there employees correctly.
Here the notices come late and the employees get retro pay.
This is how my apprenticeship went. Also the word ENTITLED does apply when talking about an agreed upon pay scale.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

^^^

Yes, when I started an apprenticeship, I signed a contract. Entitled DOES come into play in this scenario.

It has nothing to do with the OP's skill/ethic/productivity, if they intend to keep him, the rate of pay is based on the contract, if not, he should be laid off.


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## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

If the OP company went Union and the boss wants to keep the employee then he should be pay him accordingly, if that means he's due a raise he's due a raise. Sorry those are the rules.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

Killertoiletspider said:


> That's illegal, and if someone goes to the NLRB with it he will be out of business unless he can afford to pay backpay to everyone that was unlawfully terminated.


 So if he goes out of business, then he will be starting from scratch, right?

Tony's plumbing, will now become toni's plumbing.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Don The Plumber said:


> So if he goes out of business, then he will be starting from scratch, right?
> 
> Tony's plumbing, will now become toni's plumbing.


Agreed Don.

The idea that state and federal employees can out think an entrepreneur is laughable.

The violation would be by Tony's Plumbing, NOT Tony. And in court that is a HUGE difference.

I am not suggesting it is ethical or right, but it is a fact.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> Agreed Don.
> 
> The idea that state and federal employees can out think an entrepreneur is laughable.
> 
> ...


But they can out tax him or tax him out as it were.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

If the apprentice was paid more than required by the unions would he pay that back or could the guy lower his pay?

I'm not sure I understand why a plumbing company would go union. Is it to get jobs or the ability to trade out workers?


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

DesertOkie said:


> If the apprentice was paid more than required by the unions would he pay that back or could the guy lower his pay?
> 
> I'm not sure I understand why a plumbing company would go union. Is it to get jobs or the ability to trade out workers?


The schedule of benefits described in the UA Constitution are defined as minimums. That employer must pay his employees according to a percentage of the current journeyman rate. He may choose to pay more, as he is well within his rights, but he may not pay less. If his employees are currently above the minimum rate of pay (albeit unlikely) he may also choose to lower their rate without repercussions.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Don The Plumber said:


> So if he goes out of business, then he will be starting from scratch, right?
> 
> Tony's plumbing, will now become toni's plumbing.


:thumbup:


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Don The Plumber said:


> So if he goes out of business, then he will be starting from scratch, right?
> 
> Tony's plumbing, will now become toni's plumbing.


He better have someone else listed as the owner, otherwise the NRLB can drag him right back to court and reapply the charges.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

Killertoiletspider said:


> He better have someone else listed as the owner, otherwise the NRLB can drag him right back to court and reapply the charges.


 He can have the Mrs as owner, or his little baby.

Contractors do it all the time for bankruptcy, I'm sure they can get away with it from the union, & its rules too, if they want. I'm not saying its right or ethical, just saying they can do it. They let people walk away from their financial obligations all the time. So ya think a union rule is gonna stop them.:no:

Had a contractor here that started a huge subdivision, & he went under, & left about 40 contractors hanging. This guy moves to another state, & starts a whole new co, with different name. It's well known it is the same guy, but legally nothing can be done. And this guy owed millions.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Don The Plumber said:


> He can have the Mrs as owner, or his little baby.
> 
> Contractors do it all the time for bankruptcy, I'm sure they can get away with it from the union, & its rules too, if they want. I'm not saying its right or ethical, just saying they can do it. They let people walk away from their financial obligations all the time. So ya think a union rule is gonna stop them.:no:
> 
> Had a contractor here that started a huge subdivision, & he went under, & left about 40 contractors hanging. This guy moves to another state, & starts a whole new co, with different name. It's well known it is the same guy, but legally nothing can be done. And this guy owed millions.



It's not a union rule, it's federal law.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> Exactly!
> 
> So what you are saying in effect is that since you made it through your next 1800 hour term without getting your head lopped off, that you deserve more money. And what I am saying is that is a load of crap.
> 
> ...


It's a promised raise when you get your apprenticeship. He would be entitled to the raise as it was agreed upon in the union contract for every union employee. 
The employer can delegate different responsibilities to the employee but they cannot withhold a contract raise. Like others have said, the employer can just lay him off if they feel the guy isn't worth it.

With the union comes a much easier time replacing guys. You can get a new one the next day. This has been the downfall of many union plumbers that can't hack it. It forces a certain wage upon the employer but this makes it easier to evaluate an employees worth.

Everyone gets paid the same regardless of skill so even when times are good the lousy guys don't get to stick around for less. Some guys just aren't worth the extra but it would be worth it to keep them around for a lower wage.

The cutthroat aspect equals out the forced wage IMO. Usually you get more work out of a union guy than a non union. It isn't because union guys are better. Just because it's real easy to evaluate performance because they all get paid the same.

I guess what I'm trying to say is sticking around is a big accomplishment for a union guy. If you aren't good your gone. I worked for a union shop that was real busy when I got into this trade. They cycled through 3-5 guys a week.

When youre so easily replaced just being there means you're doing well.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

DesertOkie said:


> If the apprentice was paid more than required by the unions would he pay that back or could the guy lower his pay?
> 
> I'm not sure I understand why a plumbing company would go union. Is it to get jobs or the ability to trade out workers?


I know if I decided to go union as a owner it would be for the advantage to get all the manpower I needed, or reduce as needed. I see that as a huge benefit.

I worked union for a while for a shop outside of Dallas. They paid me over scale and treated me like a king. They were even going to relocate me to Dallas, I just don't like city life. I never had to ask them for a raise.

What ever scale is, your going to automatically get that.


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## jc-htownplumber (Feb 29, 2012)

Hmm finish your apprenticeship first then talk money. I was in the same situation about getting and doing jobs journeymen should do. I would get the jobs because my boss knew I can do and do a good job doing it also. Take pride in your work.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

triadplumber said:


> so the company i work for just went union, which i'm grateful for because the benefits and steady work. I'm about to finish up my current apprenticeship term, i told my boss to give him a heads-up but he tells me i will have to wait to get my entitled union pay increase because the company going union is costing him a lot of money.
> 
> i really don't want to talk to the union about this because i'm afraid it might ruin our relationship, i like working for him hes an easy going boss. i met his family and stuff, i kind of envisioned me working for him for a long time as the company grows. but in the other hand i think i deserve my entitled raise because i take pride in the quality of my work and i been told i know my stuff in the short amount of time i been in this trade. i'm doing kinds of work most company have licensed or close to licensed plumbers are doing.
> 
> ...


To all those telling the OP to keep his head down and his mouth shut, know that as a card carrying UA member, he is in breach of the constitution by accepting a lower rate of pay. 

This is one of the main reasons that organized labour exists, equality and fairness amongst all members (in relation to monetary issues) governed by an international constitution as well as a local collective agreement.

It's right there in black and white...

"United we bargain, divided we beg."


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## user8031 (Dec 14, 2011)

triadplumber said:


> so the company i work for just went union, which i'm grateful for because the benefits and steady work. I'm about to finish up my current apprenticeship term, i told my boss to give him a heads-up but he tells me i will have to wait to get my entitled union pay increase because the company going union is costing him a lot of money.
> 
> i really don't want to talk to the union about this because i'm afraid it might ruin our relationship, i like working for him hes an easy going boss. i met his family and stuff, i kind of envisioned me working for him for a long time as the company grows. but in the other hand i think i deserve my entitled raise because i take pride in the quality of my work and i been told i know my stuff in the short amount of time i been in this trade. i'm doing kinds of work most company have licensed or close to licensed plumbers are doing.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear you guys are receiving "steady" work. Here, the UA folks have been sitting at the hall, out of work. And have been for quite a while! The non-union companies here are stock piled with work.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

SlickRick said:


> I worked union for a while for a shop outside of Dallas. They paid me over scale and treated me like a king. They were even going to relocate me to Dallas, I just don't like city life. I never had to ask them for a raise.
> .


I don't know any shops in Dallas that are Union. I suspect they are few and far between especially in Texas


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

RW Plumbing said:


> Usually you get more work out of a union guy than a non union.



Ridiculous and unfounded statement.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

TallCoolOne said:


> I don't know any shops in Dallas that are Union. I suspect they are few and far between especially in Texas


Local 100 is in Dallas. The ones I worked for were mech. contractors,


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

Killertoiletspider said:


> That's illegal, and if someone goes to the NLRB with it he will be out of business unless he can afford to pay backpay to everyone that was unlawfully terminated.


Texas is different than most States, read this...
http://www.smithgarglaw.com/articles-0207termination.html


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