# The Union Way: Have no work for you members



## VanCityPlumber (Dec 11, 2010)

Relax


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## ranman (Jan 24, 2010)

here is az the bench will be empty soon. a lot of big projects.


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## DIZ (Nov 17, 2010)

*this is gonna get ugly!*


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## VanCityPlumber (Dec 11, 2010)

I love the union 


Grrrrr


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

VanCityPlumber said:


> Well, my experience with being in the Union is that they will gladly take your union dues, send you a flashy magazine and hold meetings. This is what they do all the time.
> 
> What they can't do, or wont do is actually have their members working.
> 
> ...


I have an option for you.... Give up that card you've got and give it to someone who will put it to good use. If it's such a joke then walk away, I promise you we won't mind with an attitude like that.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

So you post what I quoted, then edit? What's up with that?


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

He's trolling...


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

I know local 170 (Services BC execpt for the island) has over 200 commercial guys on the boards waiting and another 400 industrial guys waiting. With close to 600 apprentices on the boards, I don't complain working non union right now and getting slammed with work 50-70 hours a week. 

I'm not waiting for a hand out I'm doing the work I enjoy and not worried about where my name is on the board.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Greenguy said:


> I know local 170 (Services BC execpt for the island) has over 200 commercial guys on the boards waiting and another 400 industrial guys waiting. With close to 600 apprentices on the boards, I don't complain working non union right now and getting slammed with work 50-70 hours a week.
> 
> I'm not waiting for a hand out I'm doing the work I enjoy and not worried about where my name is on the board.


600 apprentices!!!!!!!! How many members in 170!! Does your BA know you are working non union???? Is that an accepted practice???


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

Airgap said:


> 600 apprentices!!!!!!!! How many members in 170!! Does your BA know you are working non union???? Is that an accepted practice???


When I first joined as a second year my BA said "welcome aboard here is a list of our contractors, be prepared you may have to work non-union for a few years till we have a spot for you."

It's depressing watching the job boards, they have the man power but not the work. So either I take a number and get in line for 1-2 years or we all work non-union and put food on the tables for our families.


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## VanCityPlumber (Dec 11, 2010)

The Union has NO RIGHT, to tell me how I will feed my family. 
Green knows how it is.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

I'm sure all Unions are different and all BA are different but I left the Union 35-years ago when I realized all they cared about were my dues.

Mark


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Greenguy said:


> When I first joined as a second year my BA said "welcome aboard here is a list of our contractors, be prepared you may have to work non-union for a few years till we have a spot for you."
> 
> It's depressing watching the job boards, they have the man power but not the work. So either I take a number and get in line for 1-2 years or we all work non-union and put food on the tables for our families.


Thanks. It's just different here. My app. class started out with 8 guys, and we ended up topping out 5 of us... There was some out of work time, but nowhere near what you are dealing with. 

Bottom line is, you have to feed your family...


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

VanCityPlumber said:


> The Union has NO RIGHT, to tell me how I will feed my family.
> Green knows how it is.


That's a choice only you can make. Sounds like you should drop out altogether...


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

I will only comment to say "no comment"...

Sent from my Union Hall using PlumbingZone


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

VanCityPlumber said:


> The Union has NO RIGHT, to tell me how I will feed my family.
> Green knows how it is.


We also have NO right to force you to get in, so as I said before the same door you walked in on will still be the same one you walk out of. Quit, it's that easy. No need in hollering about how bad it is, UA has been feeding my family for 8 years now and I don't see it ending anytime soon. If it doesn't work for you then leave, we have plenty of members who want to be here.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Changed my mind. What grinds my gears is that you still belong to a local even though you feel this way. 

You come on to a forum, bragging about working non union while being on the list, and insult your brothers and the likes.

Does the BA in your jurisdiction know that you feel that way? Maybe you should air your beef with him instead of tearing down on my way of life.

I knew when I joined that the amount of work in this area/ vs. The amount of active members meant that there was potential ti be out of a job at times, and I too have had to sit on the bench. ....

By the way, if anyone ever has an issue with how I talk about the UA, call my BA. PM me and I will offer up my card number.

He can be reached at 905-227-6660
Attn. Mike Bannister.

Sheesh!

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Here's the way I see it based on membership in my local-

10% of the members are top notch mechanics. The best of the best. These are the guys that will ALWAYS have work. They show up a little early, leave a little late. These are the men and women that move up the ranks.

80% of the members are average workers. They are walking at a minute or two late, leaving a few minutes early. They are competent plumbers but lack the drive to be anything else beside competent. They generally do a decent job. Some see what is needed to become a top 10%er and move up. Others are content to stay where they are.

The last 10% are the slugs. These guys show up 15 minutes late, jabber with a buddy for another 15, then decide to work. They then leave 15 minutes early and can't understand when they get jumped about it. "45 minutes a day. What's the big deal?" is commonly their thought. *sidenote* I once handed a "bottom 10%er" a calculator and told him to figure out how much he was costing me in a day,week, month.
These members are usually the loudest group of whiners and *****ers. Complain about everything, bringing down productivity by not only plumbers but other tradesmen/ women on the job. These whiners think a paycheck is earned by showing up to work. They pizz and moan about their employing contractor, then wonder why they're not asked to come back on the next job.


So my question to the OP- which category do you fall in?


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

U.A. - I think you have Green mixed up with VanCityPlumber. Apparently where Green is from, working non-union is customary and acceptable.

VanCity is the guy dissing the Union.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

I apologize if my statements were interpreted as directed at anyone other than OP. not my intention.

Hey Plumberman, I made some room in my inbox...

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

U.A.til.I.die said:


> I apologize if my statements were interpreted as directed at anyone other than OP. not my intention.
> 
> Hey Plumberman, I made some room in my inbox...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


10 4. PM sent.

Van City.... FAIL


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

VanCityPlumber said:


> The Union has NO RIGHT, to tell me how I will feed my family....


You're right, they don't have the right to tell how to do it. But if you're going to pay dues and by extension of that, agree to obey the bylaws of the union, then they certainly have not only the right, but the obligation to tell you how NOT to do it.

You are an un-unified union member and that makes no sense. Your union will become effective when you do.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> ...the same door you walked in on will still be the same one you walk out of. Quit, it's that easy.....


Don't send us the bottom 10%, we have too much of our own. :laughing:


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> Don't send us the bottom 10%, we have too much of our own. :laughing:


Haha, y'all take them so we don't have to hear them whine.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> Haha, y'all take them so we don't have to hear them whine.


Now where's that "no thanks" button when I need it? :no:


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

UA member since 73 and have collected ONE week of unemployment compensation in 35+ years,some slow times yes but I've made a damn good living at it with a damn good pension waiting for me in a few years.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Unions are only ever as good as their membership. :thumbsup:


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> Now where's that "no thanks" button when I need it? :no:


Haha, guaranteed Van City would be complaining union or non union.... Bet that! 

NH your correct sir, I have had the blessing of working with the top 10% in my hall. I have learned many things from these guys.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Not only that but 90% of union members never voice their opinions and probably more than 1/2 of them never bother to show up at meetings and then all they do is ***** when things aren't going their way. Union bosses aren't kings. They are elected by the members.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I keep a list of 10 percenters. The others better aim to please. 

It all boils down to a simple saying. You made your bed. Now you have to lie in it. 

Contractors are not the enemy. We only become the enemy when we have to take time from management to bird dog your ass due to lackluster production.

Nobody cares that this was sent from my droid using. Plumbing Zone


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Van city roller, my local (630) out of West Palm Beach, FL tries to keep men employed, but in case it has escaped your attention, the whole nation took a down-turn in the last few years. It is not the business agent's fault that there isn't enough work for you.

Make a pest of yourself to your bus. agent; call him everyday, visit him every week. What certifications do you have? If you don't have any, get 'em.


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

Don't get me wrong I'd rather be working union but to be considered a service plumber I need my cross connection ticket For back flow testing, I don't have it and it comes up every interview...that said I am taking the class in the summer. I have a lot of friends and family in the union and am looking forward to getting a slot, I check the job boards daily, and apply to every service job that pops up( most are interviewed positions instead of list hire).


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I hear enough wailing and crying in my Martha and Mary sewing circle. I come here for the yuks. Van City, ya better man up or leave the UA. What ya got? A year in? Get out now, the whiners, criers and complainers got no place in the UA. It's nut cuttin' time. Go non-union and you can't blame the union, only yourself. That's a hard reality for some people. If you make it, I am happy for you. But my beloved UA gets bashed enough from non-union, we don't you to jump on the dogpile.


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## Tarp1987 (Jan 3, 2011)

As someone who has worked both sides (non union and currently union) i will tell you if you are not willing to sit on the wheel and take another gig (non plumbing related) then you should not be in the ua. I have made tons of money when their is work and gotten by when their wasn't any. Overall i am better off because of the union... but that is my 2 cents


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Relax... :yes:

How much does it cost to live in your work van down by the river? :blink:

Van City you don't need the money... Don't sweat it! :thumbup:


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## Thekid (Oct 24, 2010)

Van city why are you smashing the union online just keep this stuff to yourself you know that there is strong opions about both shops. No one needs your negative bull if your unhappy leave simple as that. I know there's lots of happy guys in the union. (by the way I am non union and have nothing againts it)


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Thekid said:


> Hey Plumberman, I made some room in my inbox...
> 
> Hahahahaha classic
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


[/QUOTE]

What?


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## Thekid (Oct 24, 2010)

Nvm I miss understood read my other post lol


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Dammit! 


Now you made somebody cry! 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee925OTFBCA&feature=youtu.be


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

What?[/QUOTE]

Hahaha... Driving drunk... Classic!

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## wundumguy (Apr 3, 2010)

VanCityPlumber said:


> The Union has NO RIGHT, to tell me how I will feed my family.
> Green knows how it is.


United Association Constitution

SEC. 194. (a) A member shall not perform any work for any contractor whose business performs work that comes within the work jurisdiction of the United Association, if that employer is not a party to a collective bargaining agreement entered into either by a UA Local Union or the United Association.

(d) A member violating this section shall be disciplined under Section 199 by fine, suspension or expulsion. Local Unions failing to comply with this section shall be disciplined as provided by Sections 90 and 91.

Local Union 170's Working Rules and Bylaws

SEC 2.21. (a) A member shall not perform any work that comes within the work jurisdiction of the U.A. for an employer who is not a party to a Collective Bargaining Agreement entered into either by a Local Union or the U.A.

Correct: Local 170 cannot tell you, or anyone else for that matter, how to feed their family.
Also correct: You cannot tell Local 170 who can or cannot be a member, including yourself.

You agreed to abide by the UA Constitution and the Bylaws of Local 170 as a condition of membership. On the other hand, the UA never agreed to act as an employment agency as a condition of collecting member dues. No one goes around reporting on the activities of out of work members. Everyone understands everyone else has to eat; however, your attitude can be offensive. So, if someone does accidentally notice and is offended enough to make an issue of it, expulsion is in the rules.

And, to put things in perspective, the member dues for an out of work journeyman in Local 170 is $28 a month, or less than $1 day. If you're going to whine about a buck a day, just stop paying it. Nobody makes you pay member dues. If you have to break the rules to feed your family, just shut up. It takes a real dimwit to drive with hazard lights while above the legal limit, or tell the principal he's skipping class tomorrow.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

wundumguy said:


> United Association Constitution
> 
> SEC. 194. (a) A member shall not perform any work for any contractor whose business performs work that comes within the work jurisdiction of the United Association, if that employer is not a party to a collective bargaining agreement entered into either by a UA Local Union or the United Association.
> 
> ...


Yep, a member can also file charges against him and bring it in front of the board, that's when fines are levied.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

WDG & PM, both very well said. I got out my little gold book to have a lookey too.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

I will add that in my local 630, so many guys were on the bench a few years back, that, the local didn't care if a member worked non-union. The union leaders were like, "You have to feed your family." I worked in a non-union shop for a few months and my local knew it. Rather than try to fine me, the local tried to make the guy I was working for a signatory union contractor. 

Our annual picknic was canned and the money was used to pay monthly dues for the members out of work. When you go into my local hall, in the lobby are tables set up with canned goods and other food items; members were invited to take what they needed...not even churches were doing that, but my union was....

So, van city guy, rather than looking at unions as douche-bags who are hard-a$$es only interested in keeping you sitting on the bench and out-of-work, you should be grateful that the union granted you the privledge of even joining them in the first place...:yes:

I won't bash you, I just hope to adjust your thinking.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*Lot of that here too*

Their are a lot of union guys on the bench here 
and its no secret that they will do side jobs all over town .. 

a lot of the work the took away from me last year
was stuff that they would have never lowered themselves to do back in the good times....
 like frozen pipes in tight crawl spaces and sewage back ups in crawl spaces...


What else can they do anyway... 
anything is better than just sitting there..

Some I know personally have dropped out of the union and started their own business...
 non union of course.


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## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

*A few thoughts*

I've been a non-union gasfitter & plumber throughout my career, however my brother is a very hardcore union Boilermaker who is all about the brotherhood. I like hearing from my brother about union dealings and meetings and related accolades that he has to deal with because I know my brother is a very proud union member and he takes the concept of brotherhood very seriously; I could see him working at the union hall one day possibly. And I support him fully and I like hearing what he has to say. However he is also realistic and understands the non-union side of things as well. 

So when I was an early apprentice I happened to be on a site where we (non-union) were doing the gas fitting contract, and a well established union outfit was working the plumbing contract. It was a standard, nothing fancy tilt up commercial warehouse project. So naturally being young and a little in-experienced I was curious so I ended up having a conversation with the unoin companies foreman, as well as a few of the guys under him about what being in the union entailed and what it was about with their perpectives attached.

Fast forward a few monthes later and I'm in 3rd year plumbing school and for the first time there were a few union plumbers in the school sitting near me. So I also got to hear their perspectives as well. I probably got about 10 different perspectives from union members on their take on being in the union. 

The just of pretty much everything they said, which kinda shocked me because I'm used to talking to my brother about his union stuff and the brotherood, is everyone of these union plumbers didn't say one iota of anything related to the brotherhood, or pride in being a union member. Everything was about what they get. The money, the benefits, the perks, the pension, etc, etc. One person in question even mentioned how he had to be pulled off a site for not paying his dues. And when they told me how muc their dues were, it wasn't that much in the grand scheme of things, and I didn't think that showed pride in being a union member. That in it's own kinda turned me off a little bit. I mean I understand it's nice to have a company to fall back on but when I talk about the company I work for, and when I move companies, yes, I like making money of course, and I like benefits and all that, but usually for me it's about working for good people, and doing cool stuff - aka gaining interesting and valuable experience to keep me more employable in the long run. 

Fast forward to last year. At one of the local major hospitals, which has all in house maintenance staff (PLumbers, Electricians, Carpenters, Painters, Machinists, etc. there is a LOT of maintenance & upgrades always going on at every hospital to varyin degrees depending on the age of the buildings) that are all hardcore union members, apparently mid last year 2 of the plumbers were caught sleeping on the job and fired. So they subcontracted us to come fill in the gap working alongside the union plumbers until they could hire 2 replacement plumbers. So working alongside these union plumbers in the plumbing shop, we were quite involved and essentially treated the same as if we were members on staff. So I got to get a unique perspective on what this job entailed, as well as some of the happenings amongst the staff. But because we were subcontracted, we also got to see the management's perspective. I would have to say for a strong majority of the issues we saw happen, I would side with the union guys we work with about 90% of the time. I could see some of their growing pains and all the inefficiency that resulted from "posturing" between both sides - the management, and union members. I would say I saw a little more brotherhood from certain members, but for some it was still about what you get. Perhaps because this was more steady employment and a set work environment that doesn't change much. I think I was well received personally as I got lots of inklings that I would fit in well there if I decided to apply, etc, etc.

But I'll never forget my last day - when they told us they no longer needed us a few days before and told us this was our last day. I walked in 2 minutes late on this particular day to the normal morning meeting between management and the plumbers which we sat in on always. There was a bit of banter back and forth about a confined space entry the day before and whether it was done properly and some issues surrounding it being done properly. The manager in question had to sign off the confined space entry, but it left a few of the guys after the fact feeling uneasy about the procedures in question. So I listened intently for about 5 minutes while they bantered back and forth, some of it legitimate, and some of it seeming like posturing by both sides. I began to feel my blood pressure rise and my blood boil and I think my face got flush after hearing some BS, so I opened up when the time came. I absolutely lost it. I let the union guys know in no certain terms that this was absolute BS that if they weren't sure they should not enter at all, they should check the reference material from the compensation border which is there to look at and it is pretty black and white, and I also said that I had gotten to know them quite well and I did not want to look back in 6 monthes and hear one of died and their children don't have a daddy. I then pointed at the manager in front of all the guys, and named him and said "You will be fired if one of these guys gets hurt or dies." Every guy turned and looked at me and couldn't bleieve I said that. 

After my 1 minute straight of intense venting the meeting eventually ended and I was thanked intently by the guys in the room. I then had to meet this same manager later in the day to turn in my keys. Knowing he came form a union background before becoming a manager, I think he liked what I had to say and appreciated it, and he urged me to apply for a position they are potentially offering in the future. He also told me a story of him doing a very similar thing when he was around my age to the owner of a company he worked for. 

Interestingly enough I still think unions ARE doing good, but I believe more needs to be done, especially along the lines of improved safety and injury/compensation support.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Scott you hit the nail on the head for a lot of topics never mentioned before. 


Posturing seems to be a very fitting word for a lot of union guys I know, but some are genuine and sincere, don't take it over the level. 


I never got along in a 'good ole boys club' where the ass kissing was part of the ritual to get to the top. Watching a guy buy his boss smokes for no apparent reason...

I used to rub my nose and act like I was rubbing it on a wall, making sure he saw me do it every time. 

I'm too independent, too driven to be held back, and I felt the union kept you held back the entire time unless you felt comfortable being told what to do. 

Perks are great, but those benefits are not that good from what I'm told now... so I don't know if the carrot that exists is worth the effort. 

You cannot have a bad day on the job in the union; you are always graded daily on your performance and I don't want to fight for my existence by the decision of others... 

Too much dirt in that equation to muddy the waters of what was clean water for many.


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## satelliteplumah (Jun 20, 2010)

My only thought is if you choose to work union,stickwith it and stay the heck out of residential!! Ive never worked union and I have no problem, but because your all convinced easy residential sidework is" ok" the rest of us TAXPAYING companies with INSURANCE and bills suffer from your whore pricing, were all not making money for beer and waiting for unemployment checks from our "real" jobs. If Im not welcome on your jobsite your certainly not welcome on mine! nothing personal to any one here.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

satelliteplumah said:


> My only thought is if you choose to work union,stickwith it and stay the heck out of residential!! Ive never worked union and I have no problem, but because your all convinced easy residential sidework is" ok" the rest of us TAXPAYING companies with INSURANCE and bills suffer from your whore pricing, were all not making money for beer and waiting for unemployment checks from our "real" jobs. If Im not welcome on your jobsite your certainly not welcome on mine! nothing personal to any one here.


What the hell are you even talking about?


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