# Swore I'd never do this.



## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

I've always maintained that I would never drop my price to get work, but I had to backpedal on that today -- Not just once, but twice in the space of an hour.

We're actually doing alright day to day with repipes and remodels, but the outlook for the next 4 or 5 months for good sized new homes/light commercial is looking pretty grim.

I've been looking at a Bar on the East Side -- It'll basically be ready to go once the plans are approved, but we still seem to be dickering around about price. The GC running the job is a guy I've been working with since 1985, a pretty decent guy who has never beaten me up on price, until today.

Apparently he shopped my numbers around, no big whoop, I expect this kind of thing -- Being shopped around to keep you honest is pretty much an everyday occurrence. I don't hold a grudge when my GC's do this -- Hell, I snoop around behind their backs to make sure they're still licensed and bonded.

Anyway, the upshot is he beat me up on the low ball bid. I can take having to justify my budget against the middle and the high, but the low baller?

Well, suffice it to say I gritted my teeth, sucked it up and listened to what he had to say -- I'm not very happy, this sets a very dangerous precedent, but I did drop 5 grand from my original budget and now have the job.

A few consolations, though -- He dropped 7 grand from his price, my contract is with the investors in the venture (meaning no mark up on my bills go to him) and I'm off the hook for providing the fixture package.

Friend or not, once things even out and start to pick up, I'm kicking this 'friend' to the curb.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Right now as long as you cover overhead with some profit things are good.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Congratulations; you've just started down a path that you don't want to go down.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> Congratulations; you've just started down a path that you don't want to go down.


 I'm hip. . . . . . .

At this point, I just want to make payroll, pay off the Supply House and cover my operating expenses.


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> Congratulations; you've just started down a path that you don't want to go down.


Exactly, I'd rather do nothing, than work for nothing.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> ...Well, suffice it to say I gritted my teeth, sucked it up and listened to what he had to say -- I'm not very happy, this sets a very dangerous precedent, but I did drop 5 grand from my original budget and now have the job....


Getting through a cash flow crisis requires being able to adjust on the fly. Unfortunately you can't buy groceries with your principles.

However I hope you understand fully the precedent you set. You have to get through this and then fire him immediately after the bar gig.

I predict you will be low balled by $7,500 next time and $10,000 the time after that. :whistling2:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> Getting through a cash flow crisis requires being able to adjust on the fly. Unfortunately you can't buy groceries with your principles.
> 
> However I hope you understand fully the precedent you set. You have to get through this and then fire him immediately after the bar gig.
> 
> I predict you will be low balled by $7,500 next time and $10,000 the time after that. :whistling2:


 I'm not that hungry.

Time will tell, but I imagine I'll be kicking a lot of folks to the curb before we climb out of this hole.


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## Hoozycoozy (Apr 26, 2011)

Nothing worse than having a contractor come back at you with a price from another company. Even worse when you can't see how they are turning a profit... I always wonder if they "forget" some stuff on those bids to get a little T&M later?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

I gave a GC a price to sub the plumbing. He came back and beat me up not once, but TWICE. I caved and lowered the price both times. People on here opened my eyes and I realized the error of my ways. 

I subsequently told him I won't do that again, so don't ask. To date, I have only done one other job for him. Incidentally it was one where he was paid to manage the project. He was paid with a 'costs plus' contract I think. So my price on the latter job didn't affect his bottom line one bit.

So far this year he hasn't asked me to submit any bids...I know he's still working, just not using me.

And I see this guy just about every week in church!..:whistling2:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Hoozycoozy said:


> Nothing worse than having a contractor come back at you with a price from another company. Even worse when you can't see how they are turning a profit... I always wonder if they "forget" some stuff on those bids to get a little T&M later?


 I don't mind having my prices shopped around -- So long as they're being shopped around to my Peers.

Having them shopped around to folks who aren't even in my league is downright insulting.

Frankly, if this is going to be the new trend, then I'll close up the shop and hit the Links a few years earlier than I anticipated.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> I gave a GC a price to sub the plumbing. He came back and beat me up not once, but TWICE. I caved and lowered the price both times. People on here opened my eyes and I realized the error of my ways.
> 
> I subsequently told him I won't do that again, so don't ask. To date, I have only done one other job for him. Incidentally it was one where he was paid to manage the project. He was paid with a 'costs plus' contract I think. So my price on the latter job didn't affect his bottom line one bit.
> 
> ...


 Well, I can think of no better time than now to find out who your 'real' friends are.

I wouldn't have brought this up in the first place if I weren't so ticked off.

His mark ups on my bills (and his other Subs) have essentially kept his company afloat for the last four years: A point he gratefully acknowledged less than a year ago. I thought about bringing that up during the walkthrough today.

Bygones.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Don't show up when you are supposed to start the job and tell him you are busy doing profitable work... :laughing:

There is your chance to set a precedent... :thumbup:


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Not if it's on the plan they wont be getting any T&M. He'll just say " you should have looked at the print better".



Hoozycoozy said:


> Nothing worse than having a contractor come back at you with a price from another company. Even worse when you can't see how they are turning a profit...* I always wonder if they "forget" some stuff on those bids to get a little T&M later*?


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## bjones (Sep 6, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> I'm not that hungry.
> 
> Time will tell, but I imagine I'll be kicking a lot of folks to the curb before we climb out of this hole.


You'll climb out of the hole as soon as you learn how to price yourself and work for people who appreciate the value you bring with that correct price.

As long as you accept jobs based solely on being the low bidder you'll always be in a hole.

You cannot make money in this business selling on price. Period...


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## PeckPlumbing (Mar 19, 2011)

What part of Washington are you in?


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Find a way to do the job on the cheap. Use cheaper materials, or better yet, cheaper labor. Run on down to homey and get some expert tunnel diggers. 

If someone askes me to lower a price, I ask them what they want to omit from the project. Eff em.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

bjones said:


> You'll climb out of the hole as soon as you learn how to price yourself and work for people who appreciate the value you bring with that correct price.
> 
> As long as you accept jobs based solely on being the low bidder you'll always be in a hole.
> 
> You cannot make money in this business selling on price. Period...


------WHOOSH------->

Sailed right o'er your head, eh?

A) I'm not in a hole -- I was referring to the general state of the Economy as a whole.

B) I know how to price jobs -- I've been doing it for a very, very, very long time -- A good sized chunk of the money I gave up on this project was in my mark up for the fixture package, which I am no longer responsible for.

C) I'm not a low ball bidder -- Never have been. 

When I price a job, I give a T&M budget not to exceed, usually a very well padded budget with built in devices to cover the unforeseen. This is a new, wide open space with no mystery surrounding it, I'll make money, just not as much as I had hoped to.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

> Find a way to do the job on the cheap. Use cheaper materials, or better yet, cheaper labor.


 I'm way ahead of you.

I negotiated new pricing on all of the floor drains, floor sinks and carriers with my distributor when I first looked at this project back in February -- The new pricing is locked in for one year.

This will also be a great opportunity to clean out the shop.:thumbup:

Labor intensive work such as digging, busting up concrete, fixture backing etc is to be performed by others at the GC's expense.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

PeckPlumbing said:


> What part of Washington are you in?


 Western Washington.

We work primarily in Seattle and the surrounding area, but will travel as far North as Bellingham, as far South as Tacoma and as far East as North Bend if the project is large enough.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Widdershins said:


> Well, suffice it to say I gritted my teeth, sucked it up and listened to what he had to say -- I'm not very happy, this sets a very dangerous precedent, but I did drop 5 grand from my original budget and now have the job.


 
How long ago did you bid the job and how much has prices increased since then?

Disregard should have read the rest of the posts


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Jeeze, some of you guys are replying as if we are in an economy where work has never been better. If that is the case for you, then congrats to your success. 
Of course you can't work for free but times are tough in some places and sometimes you have to just survive, even if that means lowering you profit margin. It sounds like he knows what he's doing, with a contractor that he has a history with. Even if he loses the GC down the road to lower bids, at least he has a lowering point that he will go to before he passes on the work. 
Acting as if your gods gift to the plumbing world, inability to adjust to the times, and unwillingness to change your business - will, IMO, hurt you more than if you dont. 
Then again I opened up my business in a economic downturn ( 3 years ago) so how smart am I? Ha!


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

voltatab said:


> Jeeze, some of you guys are replying as if we are in an economy where work has never been better. If that is the case for you, then congrats to your success....


Same song different verse from the GC. The economy is always bad, home sales are slow, concrete prices went up, taxes went up, I'm working for free, you'll get my next big house, blah, blah, blah. It always adds up to the GC squeezing blood from turnips.

If he can't handle his job as a GC to sell a quality finished product at a fair price, then maybe he should try to get his old job back at Lucky Eddie's Framing, Concrete, and Lawn Mowing Service, LLC.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

It's not always a GC(although i agree about the turnip comment) . Its common knowlege that most people arent charging what they did 5 years ago, to stay in the game. 
I have been doing more service work than ever lately and I've noticed that HO's can be the same. When I ask where my bid was in relation to the others they got, I was shocked at how low some are. I just figured out what my bottom line is to do business and profit finally which i wont go under, but I try to make more profit when I can. I've given maybe 10 estimates in the last month that I was the highest bidder on. Wasn't the case 6 months ago. 
Maybe just a bad string of customers maybe not but sooner or later You do need to change something if your the only guy in town who hasn't lowered prices...you have to stay relevant.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

I'm with Voltatab on this one. Widdershins has a 20+ year relationship with him. Also, and most importantly, this G.C. has not beaten him up on price before. Calling all G.C.'s the same is overgeneralizing. Bet all plumbers wouldn't want to be lumped together as ignorant, butt-crack, slobs. Though I have seen a lot of plumbers that fit this description.

Apparently the bar owner liked the GC and gave him the opportunity to meet the number they were willing to pay. The GC had to give some back and he asked his subs to give back some.

Widdershins in turn went back to his suppliers in order to get better pricing to make up some of the difference.

The suppliers will make up the difference by charging the service plumber more.

The service plumber charges the customer more to keep his profit margin the same.

The customer buys a bar and wants to renovate it, so he asks the GC to do it for less.

Then the G.C. asks the plumber . . . 

I would rather be asked to lower our price, than to lose the job without having the chance to give it a second look. During lean times, I would like the freedom to make that determination for myself.


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

PlumbCrazy said:


> I'm with Voltatab on this one. Widdershins has a 20+ year relationship with him. Also, and most importantly, this G.C. has not beaten him up on price before. Calling all G.C.'s the same is overgeneralizing. Bet all plumbers wouldn't want to be lumped together as ignorant, butt-crack, slobs. Though I have seen a lot of plumbers that fit this description.
> 
> Apparently the bar owner liked the GC and *gave him the opportunity to meet the number they were willing to pay. *The GC had to give some back and he asked his subs to give back some.
> 
> ...


Alot of situations are very unrealistic. In alot of these cases where one has to satisfy what one is willing to pay only results in working to say you're busy.


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## breid1903 (Feb 8, 2009)

tommy. you see him in church. i love it. you might reconsider who you associate with. i filled a lien on the local united methodist church. they paid. ain't life great? breid..............:rockon:


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## breid1903 (Feb 8, 2009)

wid. you got to do what you got to do. you have to eat or at least i do. you don't want to kick him to the curb, you want to work for him again. get your money back. breid...................:rockon:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

At some point it gets like the gambler going to the casino to win his money back.... :laughing:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Update: 

The fixture package is back on the table; even with my 20% markup, I was still $2700.00 cheaper than the Purchasing Agent/Expeditor they hired for the cost of the entire package. I'm going through the numbers right now to be sure the Toto and Chicago quotes are still valid before I accept the offer. If the quotes are still in the ballpark, then this is a very big deal for me. 

And the GC threw me a bone as well. He handed me a repipe on 8 three bath Townhouses that are being converted from apartments to condo's.

He stopped by about 30 minutes ago and dropped off the signed contract and a half gallon of Makers Mark -- We start it the third week of June.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Sounds like a home run to me, WTG! Watch the fine print. :thumbup:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

mpsllc said:


> Sounds like a home run to me, WTG! Watch the fine print. :thumbup:


 I'm not sure how some of you guys view material markups, but for me, it's a windfall when the big bills start trickling in.

The markup on this fixture package will pay off 12 months of insurance for all of my work vehicles and the licensing of those vehicles. 

That's huge.

I had the money for it elsewhere, but dipping into savings and capital should be a last resort.

I'm just beside myself that it won't come to that.

It's been a very good day.


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## danfan13 (Mar 31, 2011)

Widdershins said:


> I'm hip. . . . . . .
> 
> At this point, I just want to make payroll, pay off the Supply House and cover my operating expenses.


That's called practice:blink:


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## Evolve (Jan 2, 2011)

Widdershins said:


> Update:
> 
> The fixture package is back on the table; even with my 20% markup, I was still $2700.00 cheaper than the Purchasing Agent/Expeditor they hired for the cost of the entire package. I'm going through the numbers right now to be sure the Toto and Chicago quotes are still valid before I accept the offer. If the quotes are still in the ballpark, then this is a very big deal for me.
> 
> ...


Congrats! When you are willing to work with people, more often than not it will pay off in the end.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Bet your glad you didn't tell him to get lost! Good deal for you . . . 20 year working relationship is worth holding on to.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I guess you have one of those one in a million GC's then...:thumbup:

I'm still waiting to meet one before I change my mind... :whistling2:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Bet your glad you didn't tell him to get lost! Good deal for you . . . 20 year working relationship is worth holding on to.


 I'm a sucker for a good bourbon.

Most of the initial rancor had more to do with his approach.

Instead of coming by my office and sitting down to go over my budget line by line he bushwhacked me in front of the Investors, Architect and the other Subs involved in the project.

In all fairness, I should have been better prepared to justify my numbers -- My fault for being so complacent.


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## Hoozycoozy (Apr 26, 2011)

Widdershins said:


> I'm a sucker for a good bourbon.


If you can find it try parkers heritage, it is a little pricey but worth every dime... That and pappy van winkle 12 or 15 year are the very best of bourbons stay away from the 20 and 23 year pappy they are way over priced and a little too oaky... Sorry to get off topic.


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