# Florida's code enforcement problem.



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

How do we solve it? There seems to be a serious lack of enforcement of the code. There are so many codes on the book that are not enforced by the majority of municipalities that it boggles the mind.

How do we Florida contractors fix this?

I think there needs to be some accountability on the inspector's part. If he fails to do his job and enforce at least the state's mandated minimum codes, there should be a state official that we contractors can complain to that has the authority to step in with the axe. This is the only way we will ever have a uniform state code.

Thoughts?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Does Fl. have a state plumbing board that license inspectors?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I think so. I'll have to start there I guess.......


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Protech said:


> I think so. I'll have to start there I guess.......


I know that in Texas, that if we filed a complaint about codes NOT being enforced, The state board would be all over it. After picking themselves up off the floor.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Lisa would be like.............


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

I think the only way to effect any changes is to get a large group of contractors making so much noise that they local Government has no choice but to do something about it. 

It funny how when something is important to us, we assume that it must be that important to others.

Like in my State, why would my local State Rep. give one rats a$$ for plumbing enforcement? He is not a plumber, nor does he do anything that is even close to being trade related. So, I have to figure out a way to make it important to him. Course, trying to get contractors to do more than talk is damn near impossible. As long as they are making money, they aren't going to waste time.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I have said before that Texas has a good gov. for the most part. Plumbing being one of them. IMO the state plumbing board is second to none,


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## grandpa (Jul 13, 2008)

Can you give some examples of code provisions that are ignored? I didn't think this was a widespread problem.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

grandpa said:


> Can you give some examples of code provisions that are ignored? I didn't think this was a widespread problem.


Sure. Give me a bit.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Vacuum relief valves on water tanks

Brazed joints under slabs

Mixing valves on roman tubes

Hammer arrestors on dishwashers, ice makers and laundries.

And the big one: Sizing potable water systems. I have seen so many 4 bathroom houses with ¾” cold trucks and ½” hot water trucks it’s become ridiculous.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

It's impossible to compete with non-code compliant installations. 

That's where the inspector should be your best friend. Just start rolling video whenever you report a violater to the inspector. 

I just bet he would act differently:laughing:


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## grandpa (Jul 13, 2008)

Protech said:


> Vacuum relief valves on water tanks
> 
> Brazed joints under slabs
> 
> ...


 You raise some interesting, often discussed points.

I can not find in the UPC where brazing is required under slap.

I cannot find a mandate for hammer arrestors.

As to the sizing...is that an issue for an inspector to ferret out, or should that have been dealt with by the planning department before a permit was issued?


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

The only one that is not enforced here is vacuum relief on water tanks. I could probably generate my own list. Most of the time I find blatant code violations there has usually been an unskilled set of hands involved, such as handy man or maint. person etc..

If they attacked unlicensed labor then I think we would see a reduction in the amount of poor workmanship we run into over time. But the reality is that you are always gonna see outrageous work as long as Home Depot and others stock galv, PVC, and shark bites in the same isle. Not just home depot any more either, A couple of the supply houses in town are selling to handy men just like us now as well.

I really don't wish to ask my local inspectors for an all out crack down on codes cuz it will just piss them off , and then the beware what you wished for factor comes into play. 

The DBPR is the agency you want to call non stop because they govern licensing and stage sting operations. I have no problem calling the DBPR regularly and asking why Craig's List still has ads for unlicensed contractors.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Just went to an apartment complex that had 4 1 bath apartments with laundries and hose bibs running off of a single ¾” truck line.

Shower pans with no pre-sloped mortar base.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Protech said:


> Just went to an apartment complex that had 4 1 bath apartments with laundries and hose bibs running off of a single ¾” truck line.
> 
> Shower pans with no pre-sloped mortar base.



I guess you can look at it as a good thing. You know that at some point in the future, they will need repair work done. :yes:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I know that working in a county that the inspectors have an power trip axe to grind and chip on the shoulder for " code" is no help either. As a service plumber you'll find less tolerance toward this...but if you were running new work you would appreciate a softer hand in code enforcement...to a degree. I'm not advocating dangerous or time bomb plumbing systems..just like the human quality to remain in construction.

For example: they've wanted to do away with under counter grease traps in the city that are not 1000 gal exterior tanks because restaurants move in and start one way and then start cooking later with grease etc. Problem is, when a sub sandwich restaurant wants to move in it can cost up to 20k for a grease trap outside if there is a lot of stuff in the ground. A sub shop doesnt need a grease trap like a chinese restaurant does...so I appreciate the fact I can talk to them and get an under counter in even though they are making it code here.


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

I here ya protech. Heck I never knew that the FL code had a requirement for hammer arrestors on dishwashers. But it makes sense, the house I bought has one under my sink. Never been red tagged for it though. Don't get me wrong, it makes sense, IMO the damn dishwasher hammers harder than any fixture in the house. I was always taught that the laundry arrestors will fix it!!
Whatever, sioux chief recommends
http://www.siouxchief.com/Resource_/ProductMedia/133/Water Hammer FAQ 4-04.pdf

Granted they are trying to sell their product..., but I'll leave it up to you (the plumbers on this forum) to decide. Don't forget that as the dollar value drops, the manufacturers will continue to create cheaper (plastic based) products to fill the void.


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

Here's my two cents!

One - stop the ability for home owners to pull their own permits. 
Trust me I don't want to sound like a Nazi, but it's for their own protection.

Two - Remind the cross-trained inspectors that they can create more revenue for their socialist based bureaucracy, by enforcing code, and thereby getting more inspection fees!:jester::no::blink::thumbup::whistling2:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I look at construction codes just like the common laws. They are not "suggestions" as to what standards used in construction. IT'S THE LAW. If It's going to remain on the books, it MUST be enforced. If it's not going to be enforced, then it must be removed. There absolutely must be uniformity in the enforcement of the codes in order to have a free and fair market.

The inspectors do not have the right to choose not to enforce certain codes any more than a police officer has the right to not to enforce certain general laws. If either one does so, they are being incompetent in their job and should be fired.

It is unfair for a local plumber to have an "in" with the inspectors and be allowed to do work to standards lower than the state minimums. Outside contractors and new contractors are put at a disadvantage because they are assuming they will have to actually do the work acording to code while the in crowd can bid lower because they are counting on the local inspector to let them slide in certain areas where the inspector chooses not to enforce the code.

There must be a level playing field.



stillaround said:


> I know that working in a county that the inspectors have an power trip axe to grind and chip on the shoulder for " code" is no help either. As a service plumber you'll find less tolerance toward this...but if you were running new work you would appreciate a softer hand in code enforcement...to a degree. I'm not advocating dangerous or time bomb plumbing systems..just like the human quality to remain in construction.
> 
> For example: they've wanted to do away with under counter grease traps in the city that are not 1000 gal exterior tanks because restaurants move in and start one way and then start cooking later with grease etc. Problem is, when a sub sandwich restaurant wants to move in it can cost up to 20k for a grease trap outside if there is a lot of stuff in the ground. A sub shop doesnt need a grease trap like a chinese restaurant does...so I appreciate the fact I can talk to them and get an under counter in even though they are making it code here.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Consistency is what makes it fair for everyone.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I dont look at code as a "law" that has a high level of worth. You cant hardly make a law that doesnt unjustly affect someone elses rights. You are trying to elevate service line size to some higher law with moral consequences like dont steal, commit fraud, kill, ....this is a problem when someone takes the concern for over 80 lbs pressure needs regulation to the level of some law that now can be considered a felony or something with a stiff fine. 
Sorry, I dont want the local code enforcement people having power like they are police. And I dont think licensing boards need to be part of a police state. I'd rather go the other direction. A lot of old houses here fed with 1/2" thruout and work fine. Dont need some higher level of enforcement to screw with average people....spend this energy somewhere else. Do a better job yourself and let things mellow...start dabbling with laws and enforcement and it will bite. Thats some of the beauty of Florida..not wound so fricken tight. Simple people who know how to cook their vegetables and enjoy the weather.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I did not say that violation of codes should be enforced via the same level punishment as criminal laws. I just want them to either be enforced evenly or removed from the books.

And I do in fact know how to enjoy my vegetables and enjoy the weather. In fact, I just made a nice Italian dish from scratch and completely made up the recipe on the fly using only fresh organic ingredients and left overs from the last few meals and it was freaking awesome. So there












stillaround said:


> I dont look at code as a "law" that has a high level of worth. You cant hardly make a law that doesnt unjustly affect someone elses rights. You are trying to elevate service line size to some higher law with moral consequences like dont steal, commit fraud, kill, ....this is a problem when someone takes the concern for over 80 lbs pressure needs regulation to the level of some law that now can be considered a felony or something with a stiff fine.
> Sorry, I dont want the local code enforcement people having power like they are police. And I dont think licensing boards need to be part of a police state. I'd rather go the other direction. A lot of old houses here fed with 1/2" thruout and work fine. Dont need some higher level of enforcement to screw with average people....spend this energy somewhere else. Do a better job yourself and let things mellow...start dabbling with laws and enforcement and it will bite. Thats some of the beauty of Florida..not wound so fricken tight. Simple people who know how to cook their vegetables and enjoy the weather.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Sounds good...I love italian...making some midnight marinara right now. I hear you...it would help if things were consistent.....


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

6th Density said:


> I here ya protech. Heck I never knew that the FL code had a requirement for hammer arrestors on dishwashers. But it makes sense, the house I bought has one under my sink. Never been red tagged for it though. Don't get me wrong, it makes sense, IMO the damn dishwasher hammers harder than any fixture in the house. I was always taught that the laundry arrestors will fix it!!
> Whatever, sioux chief recommends
> http://www.siouxchief.com/Resource_/ProductMedia/133/Water%20Hammer%20FAQ%204-04.pdf
> 
> Granted they are trying to sell their product..., but I'll leave it up to you (the plumbers on this forum) to decide. Don't forget that as the dollar value drops, the manufacturers will continue to create cheaper (plastic based) products to fill the void.


 


Water hammer arrestors are required on all quick-closing valves, like dishwashers, ice makers, etc. Also known as a solenoid valve.

As for code not being enforced let's start with w/h's. When doing a new install, thermal expansion tanks are not required, copper male adapters can be attached directly to tank, and if the T&P relief line roughed-in years ago is only 1/2", that's OK with the inspectors. They don't mind if you tie into a 1/2" line.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

*Florida's code enforcement problem*



Protech said:


> Vacuum relief valves on water tanks
> 
> Brazed joints under slabs
> 
> ...


 
 Most of those are strictly enforced in our area which is Sarasota. I wish code was not up to each inspector interpretations. Dishwashers by code are supposed to be 3/8 inch. Which is ¼ L lavatory supply line size and some inspectors want it to be 3/8ths inch inside or ½ od copper. I have had them pass and fail ¼ L copper.
 Air admittance valves on washing machines and I have not found one manufacturer of them to say it is advisable to use them on washing machines.

Pressure balance, temperature valves on deck mount tub fillers is not enforced.

Can anyone inform me why septic tanks are not sized on the number of bathrooms in a home but are sized by bedrooms here in Florida? I understand the more bedrooms the higher the usage can be. However a 4 bedroom home with 10 bathrooms would make a major difference with usage.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Well, another area that will probably get me in trouble with y'all. I dont think a homeowner who wants to add a bedroom addition should have to deal with environmental health and enlarge the septic tank...I dont like permits for water heaters...and I'm not particularly fond of inspections in general. I've had my wrist slapped a couple of times and have a good relationship with the bldg. depts. and still wish there was less of it. ( I know its needed )

As far as sizing..one bedroom can only fit so many people...a single person with 10 bathrooms will only pee so many times a day and do so much laundry...but 10 bedrooms and 10 people will use that one bath 10 times as much. Occupancy is the deciding factor as in restaurants.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I bet you can't understand why there are so few water heater replacements to go around these too huh?


I wonder if that would be the case if code enforcement actually did it's job.
If they treated water heater installations without pulling a permit(and had inspectors that actually enforced the codes) the same of police treat dealing cocaine, do you think we would be where we are right now?


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Dont want highway patrol every 10 miles on I 75 either .


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

They went through a lot of effort last year to pass the requirement for a grease removal service contract in place for restaurants....since the economy went bust they havent started enforcing it...to the chagrin of one of the inspectors...but I thought it was good politics to not hammer restaurant owners at a time when they were down on sales.....this is what I'm saying..keep some human compassion in the mix and a more mellow approach. They've always done an incremental approach to change here and I like it.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

stillaround said:


> Dont want highway patrol every 10 miles on I 75 either .


No, but I'd like the existing cops on the street to actually do their job


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

I asked the local inspector about the need for permit to swap out a w/h, he said no need, unless you relocate or change the electrical supply needed for the new heater.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

*Florida's code enforcement problem*

What floors me plumbers want to meet the code not exceed the code. Codes are minimum requirements.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Richard Hilliard said:


> What floors me plumbers want to meet the code not exceed the code. Codes are minimum requirements.


If people fulfilled the minimum requirements jobs would be ok. What reward is there for going beyond..personal ego? If its not money then what is it. I wouldnt want a bid job robbed of profits because someone wanted to exceed code. Point out the glaring deficiencies of code for me. I dont see them. Unless you mean cpvc valves or the cheapest faucets etc.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Yet another code tat isn't enforced: *P2903.10 Hose bibb.* Hose bibbs subject to freezing, including the "frost-proof" type, shall be equipped with an accessible stop-and-waste-type valve inside the building so that they can be controlled and/or drained during cold periods.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Where meeting min reuqirements of the code is not beneficial.

Max. amount of fixtures on a 1/2 inch water line and it does affect volume.
Not enough cleanouts
Min. pitch if even that
Plastic faucets
cheap bad flushing toilets 
1/2 ,1/3 hp disposals
nylon closet bolts
poly supply lines
rubber washing machine hoses
hose bibbs less then 12 inches off the floor ,cannot put a bucket under a hose bibb
Faucets too close to the back splash and handles not easily manipulated or cleaned. Plumber may have not have drilled the holes however they did do the install without speaking out.
unproper sizing of the water heater and until recently unproper sizing of the watts of the water heater to the breaker size. This is now being enofrced here in Sarasota
Plastic closet flanges

I could go on. Do you want the min. standards of education for your children? How about Min. standards of insurance coverage for your children?I have seen this many times stated just because it is ok does not make it right.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Where meeting min reuqirements of the code is not beneficial.
> 
> Max. amount of fixtures on a 1/2 inch water line and it does affect volume.
> Not enough cleanouts
> ...


 Just because you dont like it doesnt make wrong. Plastic closet flanges dont rust..and put a washer underneath and/or double nut...jeesh
Plastic faucets supplied by homeowner..labor is the same..they want it
1/2 hp disposers ( badgerV) are industry standards and a great value..
Poly supply lines etc.....sounds more like snobbery than a good grip on minimum standards.....just cause the word minimum is used does that trip some kind of switch....the whole world as seen thru the Sarasota filter more like it.

The only one that I'll think about is cleanouts.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Protech said:


> Yet another code tat isn't enforced: *P2903.10 Hose bibb.* Hose bibbs subject to freezing, including the "frost-proof" type, shall be equipped with an accessible stop-and-waste-type valve inside the building so that they can be controlled and/or drained during cold periods.


You all are out of control.....this isnt Illinois....stop and waste for a hose bib ??????....in Florida.....do you also want the water service 5 ft deep..that exceeds code...


I hope that the tightly wound sticklers never get in authority.....So what if a few things could be improved...SO WHAT!....march on Tallahassee then......maybe you make your sales pitch by just being appalled at what is allowed.....I figure.." hey, we could fix this a little better , if you like" .....can you see the difference?

When I moved from Chicago 23 yrs ago I started letting everyone know how we did it up north. Right away I learned something..goin back up north?? take a friend...and then the mellow crept in..
Southern hospitality, and a general lack of concern for plumbing perfection....maybe its ******* or just ripening .....Anyway the headline on the thread is Florida's code enforcement and a big part of it is Florida....dont want to be Miami or Chicago...( no I dont think Miami is in Florida  )


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

With regard to clean outs, they are now required at the base of every stack. Here in Palm Bch county, c.o.'s used to be only on stacks in 1) an exterior wall, 2) a laundry room wall and 3) garage wall. Now like I stated, c.o.'s are required on all stacks. So if Richard Hiiliard is finding alot of stacks without c.o.'s, this could be due to before code changed.


With regard to sizing of water lines, I was taught up to (2) cold fixtures could be fed with 1/2". Up to (4) hot fixtures could be fed with 1/2". If you went over that, then you needed to rough-in 3/4". Has this changed? 

Maybe in Sarasota, you're seeing entire houses run with only 1/2" cold, I don't know. If so, that doesn't even meet minimum standards.


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

How about changes in direction more than 45 degrees require a co. With that in mind, I did a slab rough in in Charlotte County and the inspector failed me for having 2 sweeps and a combo with no cleanout. His solution was to cut in a wye and extend to a access point outside of slab. After some discussion he was "nice" and agreed to let me cut out the offending fittings out and replace sweeps with an 1/8 and a street 1/8 and the combo with a wye and street 1/8. This was the most absurd thing a inspector has ever done. I was doing this house for a friend and was not well known in Charlotte County. Maybe that had something to do with it. That was definately a rule not enforced in Sarasota County and shouldn't be. 

I lost a little respect for the code and those who write and enforce it that day.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Did you get out your code book, and turn to the page titled "Approved changes in direction"? If not, why not?

Or, ask the inspector to do his job, and site the exact code section that you are in violation of. If he can not, he is required to give you an approval sticker.


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Did you get out your code book, and turn to the page titled "Approved changes in direction"? If not, why not?
> 
> Or, ask the inspector to do his job, and site the exact code section that you are in violation of. If he can not, he is required to give you an approval sticker.


 
That's my point, it is in the code. He did state where in the code. It is a bad rule. 

A sweep was wrong, two 1/8s was OK


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> With regard to clean outs, they are now required at the base of every stack. Here in Palm Bch county, c.o.'s used to be only on stacks in 1) an exterior wall, 2) a laundry room wall and 3) garage wall. Now like I stated, c.o.'s are required on all stacks. So if Richard Hiiliard is finding alot of stacks without c.o.'s, this could be due to before code changed.
> 
> 
> With regard to sizing of water lines, I was taught up to (2) cold fixtures could be fed with 1/2". Up to (4) hot fixtures could be fed with 1/2". If you went over that, then you needed to rough-in 3/4". Has this changed?
> ...


If I remember correctly it used to be no less than 12lbs pressure with everything on...or something like that. We used to allow 3 on a 1/2" cold if the third was a toilet...I dont know what the deciding criteia is now. It was more important to have enough for the notorious master shower with all the body sprays etc a few years ago.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I personally don't care whether frost proof bibs are used or not or whether isolation valves are used for bibs or not. My point is DON'T PUT IT IN THE DAMN CODE IF YOU AREN'T GOING TO ENFORCE IT. If it is going to be included in the code, then enforcement needs to be universal or the inspector is being incompetent.



stillaround said:


> You all are out of control.....this isnt Illinois....stop and waste for a hose bib ??????....in Florida.....do you also want the water service 5 ft deep..that exceeds code...
> 
> 
> I hope that the tightly wound sticklers never get in authority.....So what if a few things could be improved...SO WHAT!....march on Tallahassee then......maybe you make your sales pitch by just being appalled at what is allowed.....I figure.." hey, we could fix this a little better , if you like" .....can you see the difference?
> ...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

12lbs for sinks, showers, what ever. 20 lbs for toilet fill valves.

Another point of interest: Is there a velocity limit in the code for potable water distribution systems in the Florida code? :whistling2:



stillaround said:


> If I remember correctly it used to be no less than 12lbs pressure with everything on...or something like that. We used to allow 3 on a 1/2" cold if the third was a toilet...I dont know what the deciding criteia is now. It was more important to have enough for the notorious master shower with all the body sprays etc a few years ago.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I got the point. You asked for any thoughts at the beginning of the thread . Sure it makes more sense to dot all the i's but I'm not sure how much evil is being created by the relaxed approach. What I hear you saying is ..hey look, the code is either not appropriate or the enforcement isnt consistent and it would be better to correct all this. My point is, we are dealing with people in Florida and not Munich..where you are an idiot if you dont read the sign and have to ask a question..
You can be technically right but miss it on the how to get from here to there.


And I just in the last year ( on this forum I think) was made aware of the detriment to copper with velocity beyond 5 ft/sec. I dont know if it is code.


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Where meeting min reuqirements of the code is not beneficial.
> 
> Max. amount of fixtures on a 1/2 inch water line and it does affect volume.
> Not enough cleanouts
> ...


The problem is you could not bid above those standards in mass production housing. Your list above should not be a code issue it is a design issue on the GC and his architects part. 

That is what bothers me, don't blame us for the materials that get used, blame the mass production builders who ask for it and have made it the standard. Blame whiny Northerners who Cry about the cost of housing.. Same guy crying about the cost is the same "construction expert" that moved down here to rescue us and critique our work. 

Water pipe sizing is not an issue here. The inspectors here are worried daily about there jobs and are finding plenty for things to red tag for. They have our inspectors cut to 32 hours, have taken health benefits away, and have them scared to death about there jobs. They have already laid off 20 inspectors just in my county alone.


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## mssp (Dec 15, 2009)

In my UPC code it sates that it is all up to administrative authority. Hell I had an inspec telling me the size and brand screws I needed to use to anchor a flange WTF, I am with you on enforcing the codes but they need to do it EQUALLY I know each municipality has their own code rules. That is what is so irritating that in one town you plumb a cerain way and then a few blocks over in another town you plumb coom;etely differant.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

*Florida's code enforcement problem*


I did 200 homes a year for 15 years and I bid against the cheaper priced plumbers that used those materials. I had 12 builders plus service work. I did not use the ½ hp disposal, nylon bolts and the rest of that list. I can blame the guy that bids. The plumbing contractor has a choice. Some of the homes were cookie cutter spec homes and others were contract homes. The difference is not that much. We used to bid new construction and tired of giving the work away. That was our choice.

I understand bidding apartment buildings and condos and pricing to get the job. Isn’t that the guys that are bidding the jobs convincing the gc that a 1/3 hp disposal is fine and a 40 gallon water heater is good for a tub that holds 90 gallons, bidding quantity over quality. In the past 5 years I have seen more of those companies close their doors and send 100’s of plumbers to the unemployment line. Homes are different from large complexes.

Stillaround, Sarasota is not the mecca for high dollar incomes. It is like every other place in Florida with every walk of life and nationalities. I just worked at a restaurant that had 3 out of 5 water closest ,where the nylon bolts were broken, installed on ADA water closets. No snobbery just the plain simple truth. Plastic closet flanges with a washer do not stop the bolt slots from breaking or rising up especially with ADA water closets. Nor does anchoring the flange stop them from breaking.

The vast majority of kitchen sinks stoppages I go to are caused by the half horse disposal throwing food into the drainage system. ¾ and up disposals chop food finer, this is a fact. Stainless steel disposals do not rust and will last longer.

Check the rating on rubber washing machine hoses and manufacturer specifications. It is recommended to turn off the boiler drains and not have constant pressure to the hoses 24/7.

Yes the word minimum does flip a switch. It is my difference between me and the competition. I allow the client to make the choice. The client may not choose the best product all the time however most of the time when given options they do choose the better product. I do believe that the codes should be enforced equally. There seems to be some companies that are held to a higher standard than others.

I think we (the plumber) worry more about price than the real cost to the home owner. When we put the same value with the better products we will discover the client will choose the better one the majority of the time. Not all the time but most of the time.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:



Richard Hilliard said:


> I did 200 homes a year for 15 years and I bid against the cheaper priced plumbers that used those materials. I had 12 builders plus service work. I did not use the ½ hp disposal, nylon bolts and the rest of that list. I can blame the guy that bids. The plumbing contractor has a choice. Some of the homes were cookie cutter spec homes and others were contract homes. The difference is not that much. We used to bid new construction and tired of giving the work away. That was our choice.
> 
> I understand bidding apartment buildings and condos and pricing to get the job. Isn’t that the guys that are bidding the jobs convincing the gc that a 1/3 hp disposal is fine and a 40 gallon water heater is good for a tub that holds 90 gallons, bidding quantity over quality. In the past 5 years I have seen more of those companies close their doors and send 100’s of plumbers to the unemployment line. Homes are different from large complexes.
> 
> ...


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

Richard Hilliard said:


> I did 200 homes a year for 15 years and I bid against the cheaper priced plumbers that used those materials. I had 12 builders plus service work. I did not use the ½ hp disposal, nylon bolts and the rest of that list. I can blame the guy that bids. The plumbing contractor has a choice. Some of the homes were cookie cutter spec homes and others were contract homes. The difference is not that much. We used to bid new construction and tired of giving the work away. That was our choice.
> 
> I understand bidding apartment buildings and condos and pricing to get the job. Isn’t that the guys that are bidding the jobs convincing the gc that a 1/3 hp disposal is fine and a 40 gallon water heater is good for a tub that holds 90 gallons, bidding quantity over quality. In the past 5 years I have seen more of those companies close their doors and send 100’s of plumbers to the unemployment line. Homes are different from large complexes.
> 
> ...


Richard, I do agree with you BTW. During the boom, I worked for over a hundred different builders, everything from custom high end homes to KB Homes and the over priced garbage they were pushing. Smaller GC's seemed to be more concerned with quality. Some track builders did OK on quality, but the 2000 plus homes per year builders all wanted the cheap crap and many of them had the materials speced ahead of time based on VIP programs they were participating in. 

Nylon closet bolts- you are totally correct and are the least of my worries, We had thousands upon thousands of feet of cpvc get installed in the boom and 15 years from now it is going to be a dried up disaster that will make old galv repairs look fun. Especially when mass production builder speced and request under slab cpvc water pipe to save time at framing stage. Fittings and all....


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

The question is not whether I like higher quality products or not, or whether I like better and stronger enforced codes.....its what you going to do about it..

We are talkin code enforcement....I dont feel like putting on a vigilante hat to right the wrongs of society, and I dont feel like getting worked up over lax code enforcement, and I dont care if my customer wants cheap garbage instead of my recommendation. 
Stop and think and then tell me what to do about it...motivate??? over lax code enforcement?? ...no way. Motivate because of lousy cheap product and feel the outrage???...so I dont use nylon bolts, but I use plastic flanges, I use 1/2 hp disposers, and feel good about myself still. You dont want to spoil that do you..do you want to try and ruin my day over a disposer???? how about ruin an inspectors day by trying to make him feel stupid....or other plumbers should feel lower because they dont raise the flag on the products of your choice...time to chill and see where it goes.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

We live in perhaps the greatest location and era to be a plumbing service contractor. Here's to 2011 :drink:




Proud Plumber said:


> Richard, I do agree with you BTW. During the boom, I worked for over a hundred different builders, everything from custom high end homes to KB Homes and the over priced garbage they were pushing. Smaller GC's seemed to be more concerned with quality. Some track builders did OK on quality, but the 2000 plus homes per year builders all wanted the cheap crap and many of them had the materials speced ahead of time based on VIP programs they were participating in.
> 
> Nylon closet bolts- you are totally correct and are the least of my worries, *We had thousands upon thousands of feet of cpvc get installed in the boom and 15 years from now it is going to be a dried up disaster that will make old galv repairs look fun. Especially when mass production builder speced and request under slab cpvc water pipe to save time at framing stage. Fittings and all....*


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

My 2 cents!

Can anyone explain why I get a little rust water when I open up my sil cocks surrounding my house. I'm speculating, but guessing that it's because the construction installing plumber decided to use\galvanized nipples rather than brass.

I'll let you know next weekend when i pull my sil cock off and see. I've been scared to do it because I'm scared the plumber didn't secure the fixture properly.

Point being... I can't stand galv nipples as the cheap replacement for brass!!


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

6th Density said:


> My 2 cents!
> 
> Can anyone explain why I get a little rust water when I open up my sil cocks surrounding my house. I'm speculating, but guessing that it's because the construction installing plumber decided to use\galvanized nipples rather than brass.
> 
> ...


 


I believe you just answered your own question........


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

*Florida Code enforcement problem*

Ken
 Forgive me however I thought you asked me for some examples and I responded to you with examples. I am not the one who threw the snob card out, attack the message and not the messenger. It is your right to do whatever you want to do with your company and customers. My difference with my competition is what I have stated and I inform my clients of the difference, then it becomes their decision on what is used and installed. What I have found is the majority of my clients when informed generally make a decision for the better product.

I actually agree with you concerning code enforcement. The only difference is I think the code should be enforced equally with all plumbing companies. I rely on inspectors to use their judgment and to make the right call concerning code questions that need enforced or if there is an exception that is accepted.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

6th Density said:


> My 2 cents!
> 
> Can anyone explain why I get a little rust water when I open up my sil cocks surrounding my house. I'm speculating, but guessing that it's because the construction installing plumber decided to use\galvanized nipples rather than brass.
> 
> ...


If your scared, get a dog.:laughing:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

No Richard, theres no real disagreement...you did say it *floors* you that other plumbers dont want to exceed code. Thats where the real snobbery accusation came from. Certainly I dont care if people have a switch that trips on minimum...in highschool I questioned why I had to take the ACT exam and the SAT if colleges really only used the SAT and the counselor said I always look for the easy way out...my English teacher said he worried about people who look for the hard way...I look for the easiest way to do a rough-in layout, the easist way and cheapest to do a job except where it crosses the line on certain product quality. And, my threshold for that is different than yours, obviously...

but my main assertion to this is that I dont want to stir up the status quo by attacking the inspectors in some way...or by creating a stronger code enforcement dept.. As long as there is no favoritism where some plumber gets a pass while I get screwed and it costs me money.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

_*I can't stand galv nipples as the cheap replacement for brass!!*_

Well water around here isnt aggressive...galvanized nipples been working fine for 23 years here...down south a little further and with some city water its a little different. Until recently ( last few years ) supply houses didnt keep much stock of brass nipples. And , the big and, they've passed inspection and still do.

I dont like soldered on sillcocks..watch out for them when you go wrenchin on one.


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

stillaround said:


> _*I can't stand galv nipples as the cheap replacement for brass!!*_
> 
> Well water around here isnt aggressive...galvanized nipples been working fine for 23 years here...down south a little further and with some city water its a little different. Until recently ( last few years ) supply houses didnt keep much stock of brass nipples. And , the big and, they've passed inspection and still do.
> 
> I dont like soldered on sillcocks..watch out for them when you go wrenchin on one.


You make a good point.
Yes, I've had to deal with a soldered sillcock before. Thank God the plumber didn't secure it properly. After the wrench didn't work I gave up (pissed off). So I pulled on it and it came out of the wall about 1 1/2 inches. I unsweated it with only minimal burn evidence to the blue stucco.

My points. 
1. Do you think every plumber who plumbs a house is going to take the time to research whether or not the water (city or well) is not aggressive?
2. Would you TRULY mix metals in YOUR water system in YOUR house?
3. Does an extra 10 to 15 dollars make or break you on whether or not you get the bid?
4. Do you think a plumber who could care less about "Galvanic corrosion," is going to care about properly securing the sillcock? 50-50 chance? 75-25? 

5. Inspectors can't see them. Can't be regulated.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

6th Density said:


> You make a good point.
> Yes, I've had to deal with a soldered sillcock before. Thank God the plumber didn't secure it properly. After the wrench didn't work I gave up (pissed off). So I pulled on it and it came out of the wall about 1 1/2 inches. I unsweated it with only minimal burn evidence to the blue stucco.
> 
> My points.
> ...


1. takes no time...you find out what an area has by working there a short while,,,supply house talk, plumber talk, contractor talk
2. Yes..years ago here they put the copper adapters for a heater right on the galv.....no problem for well water
3. We had contractors that used us regularly and we spent well over $100 a house more on the bras/cpvc adapters alone and upgraded faucets we also used...if I thought the galv nipple would be a time bomb...no
4. Yes they care...have one come loose and the talk starts..had to go back a couple times to correct a plumber using drywall screws that broke off...If an areas well water doesnt cause problems...its not a case of caring less...
Be careful that you dont convince yourself that you care more so much that you get an attitude..j/k
5. If it was code...they'd find it if I installed it...Murpys law...everyone else can get away with it but the 1st time I try it....


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

gitnerdun said:


> That's my point, it is in the code. He did state where in the code. It is a bad rule.
> 
> A sweep was wrong, two 1/8s was OK


 


Maybe the AHJ wants a peice of pipe in between the 45's (1/8th bends). In effect making it a long radius sweep.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Paper can stop up in a sweep easier than 2 1/8ths with a short pipe space. Another issue that they dont inspect is how far a plumber pushes the sewer into the septic. Shorten the space before the baffle in that front chamber and chronic blockages can start.


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

Hey, I'm here to learn above all else. I've just never heard anyone defend mixing metals because it has the potential to last 25 to ? years, over 3-5 bucks of savings per fixture.

Don't get me wrong. Even though I've never even seen plastic johnny bolts. I've always used pvc flanges in my career. I think if I had a potential customer who was over-weight,I'd just add spanner flanges with the pvc flange.I was always taught that the grout/caulk joint holds the toilet, not the flange. I once had to pull a toilet where the previous plumber used about 5 pounds of concrete mortar to set and level the toilet. Talk about a shim!! Pain in the ass to break free and clean. :yes:


​


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

stillaround said:


> Paper can stop up in a sweep easier than 2 1/8ths with a short pipe space. Another issue that they dont inspect is how far a plumber pushes the sewer into the septic. Shorten the space before the baffle in that front chamber and chronic blockages can start.


 



Thank you, my thoughts exactly.


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