# Tankless options



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

I had my first opportunity today to quote a tankless replacement. The old Bosch is starting to under-perform, and was never sized right anyway. While trying to do some research on what tankless would be the best option for this job, I found myself with probably more questions than when I started. 

What I would like to know from those who would actually install them is what brand and why? 

Also, has anyone installed a Eternal Hyrbrid? What do you think of it?

Based on what I found today I would rank tankless this way.

1. Nortiz
2. Rinnai and Eternal Hybrid
3. Navien and Takagi
4. Bosch, Rheem







For those who don't like tankless, keep you opionion to yourself, this is not the thread for it. I would prefer facts not conjecture.


----------



## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

I recommend taking the manufactures installer and service class. This way you can learn the pros and cons of along with any limitations each has.

As for the units I like the Noritz would be my first choice, they have been the most dependable units I have installed. Their customer service is A-1 as well. 

Rinnai is my second choice, they to make a good unit that I have yet gotten any service calls on. I really like that all their units but their largest one uses concentric venting. I pick these units when I know its best to have a direct vent unit since I am only dealing with one vent pipe.

Takagi only has one unit that I like and its great for a place that needs two units to deal with the demand. Its the T-M50 it has two tankless heat exchangers in one casing. Its all prewired and plumbed for you so all you need is one hot and one cold water supply, and one exhaust vent. Other than that I am not a huge fan of them. When I took their service course their units are a bit more of a pain in the arse to work on.

I will not consider the Navien or Bosch ever. Some of the Rheem is just a rebadged Rinnai. As for the Eternal Hybrid there is only one supplier around here that carries them. They do talk a good hype but if you look at their numbers for how many GPM to temperature rise, it is no better than a tankless unit.


----------



## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Indie the noritz are good heaters got a variety of sizes


----------



## luv2plumb (Apr 30, 2010)

I have installed Rinnai and Navian...both good heaters but like SewerRatz said I would recommend taking the classes


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

What's wrong with takagi?


----------



## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Protech said:


> What's wrong with takagi?


I was just not a huge fan of them after taking their repair class. Like I said the one good heater they make is the T-M50 other than that I rather put in Noritz or Rinnai heaters. I think what might of put me off on Takagi is the local service rep here that did the training classes where more tying to sell us on the product than answer technical questions. Maybe I might think differently if they had a guy that knew the product inside and out teaching the classes.


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Hundreds of active Plumbing professionals, and I get 5 responses.


----------



## 1234mg (Nov 13, 2010)

I've put in about 10 Naviens. Haven't had a complaint yet and I like them a lot. I know the Noritz has the best reputation but Navien is a good choice too.


----------



## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Noritz.
Solid units. Almost no warranty issues. Best warranty if you do need it. Easy to work on. Great customer service. They perform as specified, unlike some other brands. They have great loyalty rewards, marketing support, and third party financing for dealers to help make the sale. And I think they have established themselves well as industry leaders. Why settle for less?


----------



## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

From what I've heard, Noritz is preferred by most. I like Rinnai. I have had reliability issues with every tankless manufacturer that I've installed (I've not installed a Noritz before) except for Rinnai. I'm very slow to jump onto a new product because I feel it's my responsibility to be able to service what I recommend and install. I know how to work on the Rinnai heaters and am not familiar with the Nortiz's so that's what I sell. They work great too.





Paul


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Indie said:


> Hundreds of active Plumbing professionals, and I get 5 responses.


 
That's because you done said we couldn't respond if'n we was going to advise against installing any of dem pieces o crap :laughing:


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> That's because you done said we couldn't respond if'n we was going to advise against installing any of dem pieces o crap :laughing:



I appreciate your honoring my request. I will install one for this customer, cause he wants one, and already has a Bosch tankless.


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Okey Dokey just remember that once installed, you own the damned thing when Joe homeowner calls you cause it ain't performing to his dreams


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Okey Dokey just remember that once installed, you own the damned thing when Joe homeowner calls you cause it ain't performing to his dreams



Maybe while I'm there figuring out why it isn't performing I can talk to his neighbors about installing one, or maybe look at the remodel he might want, or just shoot the bull, and collect on the service call. Then again, if it works, and he has no problems, he will be thankful, and tell all his family and friends, how I took care of his problem, and installed a unit that does exactly what he wanted. 

Yes your argument is making sense to me now. :laughing:

I almost forgot the thousands I will collect for installing the unit.


----------



## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Indie has the unit ever been cleaned? Could it just be lime buildup degrading the performance?


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Pipe Rat said:


> Indie has the unit ever been cleaned? Could it just be lime buildup degrading the performance?



I don't think it has ever been cleaned. Due to the condition of the unit, and the already leaking valve I am not going to touch it. The homeowner definitely wants a new and better unit, he asked for a new one. 

I presented him with options and he will get back to me after Christmas, as long as the unit limps through the Holidays.


----------



## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

ckoch407 said:


> Noritz.
> Solid units. Almost no warranty issues. Best warranty if you do need it. Easy to work on. Great customer service. They perform as specified, unlike some other brands. They have great loyalty rewards, marketing support, and third party financing for dealers to help make the sale. And I think they have established themselves well as industry leaders. Why settle for less?


I agree. 

Also, check out SlickRicks thread from a couple of weeks ago about tankless.


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Indie said:


> Maybe while I'm there figuring out why it isn't performing I can talk to his neighbors about installing one, or maybe look at the remodel he might want, or just shoot the bull, and collect on the service call. Then again, if it works, and he has no problems, he will be thankful, and tell all his family and friends, how I took care of his problem, and installed a unit that does exactly what he wanted.
> 
> Yes your argument is making sense to me now. :laughing:
> 
> I almost forgot the thousands I will collect for installing the unit.



That's a whole bunch O Maybe's there :laughing: Not ragging on you old son, but I have 12 guys working for me, and we spend a whole lot o time cleaning, repairing, warrantying, removing and generally screwing with tankless heaters. Sure we get paid to service them and all but there is no way in hell I will ever sell another one of them to anybody unless they sign a paper saying that when the thing screws up they will pay the full amount to either repair or replace it. Noritz, Rinnai,Bosch, Tagakai, makes no difference. One is just a little bit better crap than the others.


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> That's a whole bunch O Maybe's there :laughing: Not ragging on you old son, but I have 12 guys working for me, and we spend a whole lot o time cleaning, repairing, warrantying, removing and generally screwing with tankless heaters. Sure we get paid to service them and all but there is no way in hell I will ever sell another one of them to anybody unless they sign a paper saying that when the thing screws up they will pay the full amount to either repair or replace it. Noritz, Rinnai,Bosch, Tagakai, makes no difference. One is just a little bit better crap than the others.



I certainly will bow to your expertise. I am just trying to make my way in this tough world. Let me ask, since you derailed my thread. :laughing:

Why or what are the reasons you are repairing these tankless heaters? I hear the number one problem with tankless heaters is, installation problems. Most of the "Experts" I have talked to say that more than 90% of the problems are easily traced back to the original installation.


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I have only installed about a dozen total in the last 5 yrs. Rinnai and Noritz, I have not had any issues so far. When I sell them, it is what the customer has their eyes set on, not because I push tankless.


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Absolutely. Probably more than 1/2 of the problems are due to stupid homeowner self installation problems. Usually undersized gas supply and undersized water supply piping. The other problems are not so much equipment porblems as they are owner expectation problems. These units deliver different temperatures depending on incoming water temperature. Then there are the problems with hard water deposits and the remainder are warranty issues. All in all, for the money spent and the supposed money saved, a tank water heater delivers better value for the money and far far les maintainence issues


----------



## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Last time I was in Costco they were offering Nortiz installations. I think we are done with them in favor of Takagi.


----------



## dclark (Dec 12, 2010)

Hey Indie,

The company I work for installs tankless heaters.

Initially, we installed Bosch BVented units. 
These were, I think, 117mbh nat gas, so with local cold supply water at about 50 or 55 F, about 1.75 or 2 gpm (1 shower).
Very few issues with these, as long as the venting was installed exactly listed (Less than minimum height is trouble) and there was adequate combustion air.

We then started installing some Rinnai units (I think about 180mbh, so about 3 gpm (2 x 1.5 gpm(hotside) showers).
The big drawback was venting costs. If the unit was not, or could not be placed adjacent to an outside wall, it would add considerably to the price.
If the unit was not installed with a condensate collector on the vent (even if the instructions said it was not needed), we'd end up with seriously corroded heat exchangers within a few years. 
These units were.. maybe 86% eff? Not positive.
They now also have condensing units, I've only installed one, went in well, quiet, performs well, but it's only been in for about 6 months, so I can't comment on that unit.
The manufacturer is rebating the entire cost of the venting (Canada, not sure about US) until the end of this month. Condensing units only.

We are now installing Naviens. I know a little more about these than the first 2.
A quick search of other forums / net will tell you to never ever ever install these pieces of junk.
IMO, they are good units.
I installed one in my sisters house 2 years ago, and she still talks to me. She is actually very happy, she can at last fill her large jetted soaker tub. 

Great units, with a few issues.
The performance is as advertised, but when calculating the size required, make sure to do the math, and use your local cold water supply temps.
If you use their charts, read their fine print. Big flow showerheads, superhigh flow tub fills can be trouble for a single unit unbuffered.
Increasing the setpoint will not increase the amount of hot water available.

There used to be a few choices in models, but there seems to be only 2 now, with 3 sizes each. 
The 240 is 199 mbh, the 210 is 175 mbh, the 180 is 150 mbh. I shake my head and wonder...

Issues we've had with these..
Board failures, requiring replacement (Navien mails them out, 2 or 3 days).
Sensor replacements (usually due to water quality issues).
Integral fitting failures (they have now changed the material these are made of, they used to be a grey color, like polyb, now are black).
Lag time in getting replacement parts.

If you have a local supplier that stocks parts, you may be able to get the boards/parts from them, but it seems that Navien prefers to mail the parts.
We now stock a few boards, pressure/flow switches ourselves to speed it up.

The tech support is fine, but annoying. You need to call them while standing in front of the unit, with all of the customer information, including zip/postal code.
Then, you better make sure you have a digital manometer with you (You'll need to check the gas pressures, exactly).
The guys on the phone are great, but they have to follow procedures I guess.

We have installed maybe 50 or 60? in the last 3 years.
The first year, we probably had 3 or 4/10 that had problems.
The 2nd year, 2 or 3, including my sisters (board replacement).
The last year we have had few issues. They seem to have worked out their problems.
We are still installing them.

Customers new to tankless need to know that these units need yearly maintenance, and that these units may have a slightly longer initial 'hot water to the tap' than their old storage heater.

Sorry I rambled there, hope that helps..

Regards..

Don.


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Wow Don, that was a great post. Very helpful, and it confirms I am heading in the right direction.

This customer does in fact have a Bosch, b-vent, 117,000 unit. Its leaking and under-performing.

Unclog, you also confirmed what I thought I knew. It all comes down to installation. If installed correctly, then serviced as needed, you might just have to say it is a decent appliance.


----------



## Shuanvon (Aug 5, 2009)

I have not had good luck with Bosch heaters at all  We pulled one out last week that was 3 years old(regularly serviced) because the blower went out($400 for new one). We have installed quite a few Noritz and Rinnai with absolutely no problems. i cant comment on Navien or Takagi because we do not have a local distributor, although i have heard positive feedback about both of them.


----------



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

I've installed 50 tankless water heaters over the last 2.5 years. All of them were Noritz except for 3, 1 Rinnai, 1 Takagi, 1 Navien. Ho refused service contract on the Rinnai (this was my first ever install) but called this summer because it was leaking. Failed heat exchanger (no maintenance and high water pressure) cost him around $600 to replace as I recall (and that probably was not enough to charge btw). No calls on the Takagi but I really didn't like it. I replaced a Takagi that I did not install earlier this year. I forget the exact circumstances but I remember something about the unit would not fire and we could not run the proper test until the unit was running. If I'm not mistaken I think we suspected an thermistor reading high temp or something (probably from scale build up), anyway it was going to cost $500 or so just to get the thing to fire so that we could see what was actually wrong with it. Ho elected to replace it with a pair of NR98 DVC. I installed the Navien under duress earlier this year. No complaints on the Navien so far but I didn't like it either (parts came busted out of the box and I still haven't been reimbursed for the warranty call from Navien).

Of the nearly 50 Noritz units I have installed I had one lady who was not absolutely thrilled with it's performance. I spent a lot of time on a couple of different occasions putting the unit through it's paces. Everything checked out: gas inlet pressure, gas manifold pressure, production vs. inlet water temp., outlet temps, etc. I checked everything and even talked to tech support while I was on site with the water heater. We never found any abnormality and could never make it do what she indicated it was doing.

Everybody else has loved these water heaters. Size them properly, make certain the ho understands clearly what they will and will not do, and install them correctly and they are fabulous machines.

I have also been the only Noritz authorized service provider for my region for just over 2 years. In that time I have received 9 or 10 requests for service. In case you didn't catch it, that is a miniscule number of service calls over 2 years covering a population of roughly 1.5 million people. The first call I ever received was for a fast food restaurant that had a 13xx (can't remember the last two digits of the model #) M. This unit pulls it's combustion air from whatever space it is in. It was sucking grease laden air from the grill 20' away. This failure was not the fault of the unit, rather the fault belonged to whoever specified that unit, the installer should have caught it as well. We replaced it with a 931 direct vent and all is well since. I had a call about a month ago that turned out to be a failed ignitor (no the probe didn't need cleaning, the ignitor itself failed). This was apparently very rare because Noritz tech support asked me essentially the same questions in a slightly different way several times because they just don't see this happen very often, if ever. Popped in the new ignitor and everything was fine. Every other call we have received has been either improper installation or lack of maintenance. Invariably when it is lack of maintenance, the ho reports that no one ever informed them of the need for any maintenance. After we run the descaling flush (or have the ho do it if they are too far away) the units perform as they should.

In short, I have had very good success with Noritz. This is not to say that some other brands might not perform adequately but I have done very well with Noritz thus far.


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I don't see where anyone commented on the Eternal hybrid. They had a rep. at the supply house today, they furnished breakfast, that's why I went (donuts). They are 110% efficient, 20 yr. res. warranty and 0 maint. required. They pay the plumber $150.00 to trouble shoot one of their units. PVC venting, but they cost almost as much as a conv. tankless w/vent pipe.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

slickrick said:


> They are 110% efficient


Please explain 110% efficiency in a gas water heater to me.... :whistling2:

I've got my hand on my wallet and I'm ready to buy.... :laughing:


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Maybe it was 105%. Just let me worry about that, you just write the check.


----------



## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

*Eternal Condensing Hybrid*



CONTRACTOR LOGIN
SIGN IN »
not registered? sign up »
 
Username 
Password 


Forgot your password? 
Forgot your username? 



Home
Products
Technology
reviews
News & Events
Support

Accessories
Product Gallery
*Products*

*All the right choices.*

No matter which Eternal you choose, you'll get endless hot water, consistent pressure and never a cold water sandwich. When installed in optional recirculation, you'll save water by never waiting for hot water again.
*The Future is Here - 98%+ Efficient - Eternal Condensing Hybrid*










*Clean*


316L Stainless Steel Heat Exchanger w/built in 2 gallon reserve tank
Meets NSF Standards for health and cleanliness
Ultra low emissions (1ppm CO) leaves almost no carbon footprint and is safe
Patented self-cleaning utilizes turbulent flow to flush sediments out









*Clever*


98%+ Efficiency saves cost, exceeds Energy Star standards, and qualifies for Tax and LEED credits
Compact chassis can wall or floor mount; standard water connects on top
Flexible NG / LP / Indoor / Outdoor / Direct Vent / Power Vent conversions in one unit
 

98, 105, 110, whats the difference?:laughing:

What was that line in the movie "Whadda ya wiring that with, 220?"

"Yeah, 220, 221, whatever it takes."

That was funny. I think it was "The money pit"


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

So these perpetual motion generators are in finally huh....

High 90's yes... 110% never.....


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Redwood said:


> So these perpetual motion generators are in finally huh....
> 
> High 90's yes... 110% never.....


The salesman told me that a perpetual motion generator was available as a option.


----------



## BB_cuda (Apr 24, 2010)

mr. mom.


----------



## Ruudplumber (Feb 21, 2011)

have always leaned customers towards the standard water heater replacement. We have 39 grain hardness and some occasional pressure fluctuations in the water service. With such bad water wouldn't the tankless just be a maintenance nightmare? To busy to have to add another routine job to the mix.


----------



## AllAces777 (Nov 23, 2010)

I've always been a fan of Rinnai, mainly the support and service is top notch. I've serviced a few of them, nothing major, just control panel resets and am currently installing 3 in a commercial market. They came to town around 8 years ago, but back then they were too high priced, but with the new .67 energy star requirement, this may become a better option.

I haven't installed any Electric Tankless yet, still waiting for Rheem to give me the free one for my house, hehehehe! :thumbup:


----------



## Ruudplumber (Feb 21, 2011)

on the electric side. stay away from american heat. used them on some in-floor heat jobs. what a joke. they sent me 3 bad boards and then finally wanted me to ship the whole thing back to find out they have garbage for an inventory. literally send you bad boards. what a joke.


----------



## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Ruudplumber said:


> on the electric side. stay away from american heat. used them on some in-floor heat jobs. what a joke. they sent me 3 bad boards and then finally wanted me to ship the whole thing back to find out they have garbage for an inventory. literally send you bad boards. what a joke.



Electric tankless on floor heat? WOW. They cant even heat enough domestic water to serve a two bath house.


----------



## Ruudplumber (Feb 21, 2011)

yea, most of the big machine sheds 
(50 to 60x 100') we have been putting in the small electric heats to heat the whole shop. works very well..... just that brand was sold out. Now mainly using mini boilers.


----------



## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Never would've thought that electric tankless would work as an option for that application. Very interesting. 




Ruudplumber said:


> yea, most of the big machine sheds
> (50 to 60x 100') we have been putting in the small electric heats to heat the whole shop. works very well..... just that brand was sold out. Now mainly using mini boilers.


----------



## the plumber VA (Mar 3, 2011)

*Tankless*



Indie said:


> I had my first opportunity today to quote a tankless replacement. The old Bosch is starting to under-perform, and was never sized right anyway. While trying to do some research on what tankless would be the best option for this job, I found myself with probably more questions than when I started.
> 
> What I would like to know from those who would actually install them is what brand and why?
> 
> ...


I have installed many tankless units. Mostly STATE models. I have found Rinnai is the most common unit here in northern VA. State just bought Takagi so they can stop using the old Rinnai models. They just need to be sized correctly to produce hot water to all fixtures. Nortiz is the first company to use pvc out for vents.


----------



## the plumber VA (Mar 3, 2011)

*Tankless models*

I have installed many tankless units. Mostly STATE models. I have found Rinnai is the most common unit here in northern VA. State just bought Takagi so they can stop using the old Rinnai models. They just need to be sized correctly to produce hot water to all fixtures. Nortiz is the first company to use pvc out for vents.


----------



## oolong86 (Feb 10, 2009)

Haven't put my 2 cents into this forum yet, since I've only installed 2 tankless, both Paloma 7.4. After 3 years & one cleaning on each no complaints. Both were mounted on exterior walls for inexpensive & efficient ducting and 1" gas lines reduced at the heaters. The main reason for Paloma, was at the time they were the only tankless able to take input temps above 85f (adjunct to passive heating & storage). Hopefully that's changed.


----------



## AllAces777 (Nov 23, 2010)

Just wanted to post again, finished a couple of Rinnai Tankless heaters the other day at a meat market... :thumbup:


----------



## plumbz (Jan 28, 2011)

stay away from the bosch, I had a coil split at 70 pounds two weeks after install and they wouldn't stand behind it.


----------



## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

the plumber VA said:


> I have installed many tankless units. Mostly STATE models. I have found Rinnai is the most common unit here in northern VA. State just bought Takagi so they can stop using the old Rinnai models. They just need to be sized correctly to produce hot water to all fixtures. Nortiz is the first company to use pvc out for vents.


Takagi US was not sold, AO Smith cut a deal to control marketing rights in the US and are marketing the product under, Takagi (still an office in CA), AO Smith, State & American.

Navien had everyone beat by two years with PVC vent forcing all others to develop one, Paloma, Rheem, Ruud, Wei Lei, being the last to introduce one. 

Rinnai is the only one left, sticking to Polypropylene.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Nice crack pipe....er uh track pipe.



AllAces777 said:


> Just wanted to post again, finished a couple of Rinnai Tankless heaters the other day at a meat market... :thumbup:


----------



## AllAces777 (Nov 23, 2010)

Ahhh comon, Gastite man, GASTITE! :laughing:


----------



## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

oolong86 said:


> Haven't put my 2 cents into this forum yet, since I've only installed 2 tankless, both Paloma 7.4. After 3 years & one cleaning on each no complaints. Both were mounted on exterior walls for inexpensive & efficient ducting and 1" gas lines reduced at the heaters. The main reason for Paloma, was at the time they were the only tankless able to take input temps above 85f (adjunct to passive heating & storage). Hopefully that's changed.


Recognize this? Its a reason the Paloma wont fire...strange setup..its a water control diapragm that pushes a piston up into the gas valve.......this one looks like the chlorine got the better of it...5 years old. PH-24 legacy with a standing pilot.


----------



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

stillaround said:


> Recognize this? Its a reason the Paloma wont fire...strange setup..its a water control diapragm that pushes a piston up into the gas valve.......this one looks like the chlorine got the better of it...5 years old. PH-24 legacy with a standing pilot.


Not sure what that is supposed to look like but those scalloped edges look like classic chloramine degradation to me, and I'm pretty sure there should not be a hole in it either.

I don't think I ever recall coming across any Paloma product in my market.


----------



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Love those Sonic cheeseburgers btw.


----------



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

I'll file that tip away in case I ever do come across one. Thanks.


----------



## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

smellslike$tome said:


> Love those Sonic cheeseburgers btw.


I like the onion rings..this was my 1st Paloma call and Im glad they have tech support..


had to order and next day the parts which Rheem/Paloma dont supply.....kit and freight $110


----------



## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Protech said:


> Nice crack pipe....er uh track pipe.


 
You're just sayin that cause you got a freshie threader you're itchin to use. :laughing::yes:


----------

