# Dumb general's



## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

We have a project where the general has refused to lay the walls out on the second floor for a month now. This morning he had a fit about every trade done his own layout. Meaning the walls to. I have exhausted all more pleasing way of dealing with this moron. I have called his office with no response yet. Since the clinic is owned by a very good customer of mine I might threaten to hire a carpenter to lay the walls out bill my costumer and have them deduct it from the generals contract. Dam!


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

you should have a clause in your contract on who is responsible $$$ if you are held up on a job and for what reasons...and how to go about a resolution, all the municipal work that is done has pages in the contracts to lay blame on what subs and what the penalties will be if work doesnt flow, and again its based on how big the job is...


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Unless it's stated clearly that you are not to layout walls, I don't see the problem. When push comes to shove, we do it and just get signatures on what we pulled from. I also send emails to CMA. Come on man, you should be setting fixtures by now! Go, go, go!!!


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

I'm with you. Especially commercial work, carpenters should be laying out walls. Should be in the contract. If not you may be stuck. So the carpentry sub which may be the general or not should be doing that.

We are plumbers & plumbing contractors, not general, electrical, masonry, drywall, etc.

I don't think the general or carpenter will be laying out your DWV system.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

GAN said:


> I'm with you. Especially commercial work, carpenters should be laying out walls. Should be in the contract. If not you may be stuck. So the carpentry sub which may be the general or not should be doing that.
> 
> We are plumbers & plumbing contractors, not general, electrical, masonry, drywall, etc.
> 
> I don't think the general or carpenter will be laying out your DWV system.


You never did underground work?


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

89plumbum said:


> You never did underground work?


Frozen ground, mud & water filled ditches, tunneled you name it.
Of course on residential. Now on the other hand commercial union, you best not touch a shovel. You best not touch material farther than 10' from the building entrance. I also don't run a back hoe if needed. Where a person having a shop with one can and may. Just best not be on a commercial job in my area or get ready to have a picket set up.


There is a big difference between a SFR or even a simple office with one accessible or two restrooms, service sink and FD. Or lets say a nursing home slab on grade. 

So to be clear, job size matters, union or nonunion matters. I am assuming (maybe not correctly) this is a larger scale commercial job. Plumber should not be responsible for location of walls.

Same nonsense I see where to get a tub into a site, the laborer has to unload it and get it into the building, then call an electrician to remove any wiring in the way or through studs that may need to be removed, then have a carpenter remove the studs, Go ahead and set the tub, then call them all back into re-install what has been removed.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

I would agree with above, if its a union job, you better not work out of tittle or you could take a nasty fall down some stairs..if its a private job, it has to be discussed with GC..preferably before a problem arises..


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## mpm (Nov 16, 2010)

Your right on job size and union / non union.

Chalk it up to a learning experience. The way I see it is that you've now learned that this kind of thing should be stipulated in your proposal AND contract. The more years I'm in business, the longer my contracts get... I'm up to 12 pages of this is what I'm doing, this is what I'm not doing, this is what you're going to pay me, this is what happens when you don't pay me, so ****ing pay me or you pay me and my lawyer.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

I have a friend that has her own compliance business with new york city contracts..you wana talk about a nightmare of contractual mud throwing..and contracts that look like an encyclopedia ..geez, either you can make a fortune if you navigate it correctly or loose a fortune because you didnt, she gets both sides coming to her, companies that dont know municipal work and the specific city the job is being done for will be out of business quickly..so they pay her big $$$$ to get them back on track..its not for the faint of heart..the biggest problem is most companies dont have the financial backing todo these big jobs and wait for payment if any issues arises..the city doesnt pay till ALL the "T"s are crossed and "I"s dotted....regardless of whose fault..most if not all of those are all union run jobs...you would need a contract lawyer on staff to make things run smoothly, the stuff that comes up to cause you problems you couldnt even dream up as there are so many areas that will bite you..


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

And then you have the jobs that give you 3 control lines per floor that you use to lay out 25-1 and 2 bath apt's. from,carpenter doesn't lay out the walls until the stacks are all set,and they will all be cast in place in the 8" pour.Indirectly every trade is laying out the walls.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

There are many scenarios that apply to this situation. Good judgment is a must and am sure wyrick is using his. 

We had a situation where the plumber cored and roughed in 4- hotel rooms. Cast and copper. Turned out the carpenters were off by a foot on everything. 

GC refused to pay a change order to us claiming the blue prints are a part of the contract and it is up to each individual trade to make sure walls are correct. Boss didn't pursue the issue because of all the work we do for them.

I've been on other jobs where similar problems occurred and we had no problems getting paid.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Depends on the contract and contractors involved but I would lean towards the GC and Drywaller being responsible for wall layout if for not other reason than to make sure the **** is done right the first time.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

I'd request a job meeting with the GC and all three MEP subs. I've used this tactic in such a situation. He may not give in, but at least he'll know he's going to get push back on multiple fronts. There's power in numbers. Plus, your inclusion of them can create friendships that pay dividends (like referrals) down the road.


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## MDservices (May 9, 2016)

I do enough reno work where I'm handed plans and left alone... the plans are nice and all but they don't always line up with existing structures or brickwork or the plans aren't detailed enough to tell you if it's 2x3 or 2x4 going against the brick wall or what not... I get in touch with the contractor but often it's the client that will fix it all for me... 90% of the time it ends with me running my piping where I believe the walls will be according to my calculations and my past experience as a carpenter. Sometimes it works out but 50% of the time, my plumbing has moved a wall over by 1/2" to 1" and things like that... it's a remodel/reno and you work with/without contractors on site, or other tradesmen etc. It varies so much and I don't have time to wait around. A small house reno will take a few days and I got too many other service calls, estimations, heating jobs lined up to wait! I just let people know how I work in advance.. so far I haven't had a complaint.

Just over the holidays I got a call from a client, roughed a whole home inside a giant barren box of bricks before any walls were up. I followed the plans to a tee. Of course, the floor was there and there was a crawl space. The client played contractor and decided to have the ventialation guy pass before me... fine, but he blocked off a good portion of the island sink below the floor which meant I had to run my drain and loop vent in the middle left of the cabinet instead of the far back. She called me and I explained and she was like "ok, sounds good". But the damn ikea cabinet guy still cut my dwv pipes so he could fit the cabinets on top of them... *face palm* ... thankfully I took measurements and photos and was able to cut the base of the cabinets exactly where the pipes where. What kind of cabinet guy doesn't know to create the holes FOR THE PIPES?


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Ha I've got him. He approached me Friday and wants me to connect some job heaters. I told him he would have heat when i get my wall layouts.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

89plumbum said:


> Unless it's stated clearly that you are not to layout walls, I don't see the problem. When push comes to shove, we do it and just get signatures on what we pulled from. I also send emails to CMA. Come on man, you should be setting fixtures by now! Go, go, go!!!


We never lay walls out. Contracts are very clear scope of works are set only thing we layout is our work. There is no time in contract for the layouts and there is time in it for the carpenters.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Well we had a meeting today and the superintendent wants to really push this job. Lol he is going to lay out the walls tomorrow he got a little cold.


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