# Lost another call to Lowes



## chuckscott (Oct 20, 2010)

I did an estimate today to install new water heater, prv and expansion tank. All parts are customer supplied. I gave the customer the price and she told me that Lowes would do it for 100 bucks less. 

I don't know about anyone else, but real plumbers in my area follow behind these hacks fixing code violations and install mistakes. Things like two 24' flex gas lines connected together to supply a water heater, no dielectric unions, etc, etc.. take your pick, we have all seen it..

What I am concerned about is that they will let any handyman type do their installs with little to no regard to code. When I told my customer to make sure that they send a licensed plumber do the install because, in doing so she could ensure that it was done to code. She asked me what code was! 

I guess my problem is that I, like many others, spent years to learn what I know and big box companies send any warm body to do the job with no concern for the safety of their customers.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Why would you want to be involved with the installation of a Whirlpoo Water Heater even if it is customer supplied? :whistling2:

http://www.google.com/search?aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=whirlpool+water+heater+complaints

Consider yourself lucky! :whistling2:


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Why would you want to be involved with the installation of a Whirlpoo Water Heater even if it is customer supplied? :whistling2:
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=whirlpool+water+heater+complaints
> 
> Consider yourself lucky! :whistling2:


When every I get a call to service a WHitlpoo or a GE heater, I just tell them its time for a new one, even if the one they are calling about is a month old.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Went to install a ho supplied bar sink and faucet the other day. Rough piping was not finished. Hot/cold water and drain had to come from room on other side of wall from an adjacent wall (two 90 bends for each line). Pex h/c water and pvc drain about 6' each w/hangers, new stops, faucet supplies, strainer, drill through wall and cabinet, escutcheons, waste connector, trap, etc. I give her a total price of $1195.00. She gets mad and informs me that Blowe's will do it for $120.00.  Good luck with that lady.


P.S. It bothered me because this was a long time client who thought I was trying to rip her off so I called 2 other small plumbing company owners who are friends to play lets make a price just to make sure I wasn't way out of line. I give them the scope of work without telling them what I quoted. They both came back with $1200.00.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> Went to install a ho supplied bar sink and faucet the other day. Rough piping was not finished. Hot/cold water and drain had to come from room on other side of wall from an adjacent wall (two 90 bends for each line). Pex h/c water and pvc drain about 6' each w/hangers, new stops, faucet supplies, strainer, drill through wall and cabinet, escutcheons, waste connector, trap, etc. I give her a total price of $1195.00. She gets mad and informs me that Blowe's will do it for $120.00.  Good luck with that lady.
> 
> 
> P.S. It bothered me because this was a long time client who thought I was trying to rip her off so I called 2 other small plumbing company owners who are friends to play lets make a price just to make sure I wasn't way out of line. I give them the scope of work without telling them what I quoted. They both came back with $1200.00.


people like that are just ignorant. they must have had a quote to just install the sink. not all the rough work. People like that will find out the hard way but sad thing is they will be too embarrassed to call you back after they realize.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Plumber Jim said:


> people like that are just ignorant. they must have had a quote to just install the sink. not all the rough work. People like that will find out the hard way but sad thing is they will be too embarrassed to call you back after they realize.


Thats a fact, when they realize they got screwed buy the so called installers from the home centers and such, they always are embarrassed to call me in to fix it. I just tell them no worries, that I feel bad they had to learn the hard way.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

I know this does not help, but most big box stores sub the work to a large outfit, then that outfit subs to the actual installer who gets it at a several discounted price. 

Due to the low price for install you are going to see hack work.

Sorry you lost it, but no reason to brood. Just give a card and offer to clean it up if, and when there is a problem. :laughing:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*did you mention the law suit??????*

whenever I hear about lowes, I like to mention
the class action lawsuit dealing with their water heaters
to the customer.....http://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/whirlpool_water_heaters.html

I tell them to go to consumer reports and the 210 pages of 
complaints on the whirlpool heater....or I direct them to my web sites first page 

and then I tell them to ask Lowes why they keep selling that brand of heater to the public when they know it has all these problems...

they are too stupid to care about code, 
but if you let them know what kind of troubles 
they are in for with that brand , 

it usually gives you a much better chance to win them over .


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

But remember, 

These customers get guarded, defensive of the cheap install because they know they saved money initially.

Now do they care about code? Most times, no. They just want hot water and that's the size of it.

And if you try to pursue the last idiots that did the terrible work?

"Can't find the receipt"
"Have to call and see who did the work"
"I'll call you when I find out" 


and then you never hear from them again. Why? Because they have hot water. Even if the flue pipe is clogged, hanging down, disconnected or hanging with pantyhose...no dead bodies so they are not upset. 

Even if you tape these guys leaving the store, coming in and showing the pathetic work and chasing the hacks down for an answer, rarely will you get a rage going that matters to get people to change. 

But how dare you not renew your license fees or not get your continuing education hours. 

Then the state not only wants to remove your right to practice plumbing, but find you and make you stop until then, even though you're providing good work to the masses.

Never do they pay attention to the guy with no credentials, chopping up/ripping off customers. 

Need horrible consequences before customers will do anything. It's the norm these days and it's worse now than it has ever been. 

People don't have money to spend and they WILL chance a better deal. An electric water heater is only 3 connections, gas is 5. <<< They know this.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

Indie said:


> I know this does not help, but most big box stores sub the work to a large outfit, then that outfit subs to the actual installer who gets it at a several discounted price.
> 
> Due to the low price for install you are going to see hack work.
> 
> Sorry you lost it, but no reason to brood. Just give a card and offer to clean it up if, and when there is a problem. :laughing:


The electric company pays something like $100 to install a marathon, HD or Blowes pays something like $125, to install an electric. I could conceivably do it for $100 if I didn't have to add parts (pop off line, pan), or replace parts (flex lines, extend lines, etc. The electric company doesn't ask for any license, you just have to have insurance. I have never been in and out on a water heater replacement. There is always something that has to be added or changed.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*sears charges 269*



plumbpro said:


> The electric company pays something like $100 to install a marathon, HD or Blowes pays something like $125, to install an electric. I could conceivably do it for $100 if I didn't have to add parts (pop off line, pan), or replace parts (flex lines, extend lines, etc. The electric company doesn't ask for any license, you just have to have insurance. I have never been in and out on a water heater replacement. There is always something that has to be added or changed.


sears is chargeing 269 in our town to install a water ehater, but in the fine print it states that this does not include getting the heater up to code..

I KNOW what is going to happen when they show up and try to cram a thermal expansion tank down these cheap asses throats........:thumbup:.:laughing::yes:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Sears, Home Depot, and Lowe's all have the same routine here as well. Lowe's charges $269 for the install and an additional $35 for the permit if it is in Oklahoma City. They only pay the plumber half of that but they supposedly do use licensed plumbers. 

The plumber only get's about half of that money so there are always going to be unexpected add ons. They are priced to make up for the fact that the plumber is losing money on the basic install. Results in fights with the customer. It's just a bait and switch to the consumer.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

I do not know how many installs the Big Box cretins get, but the worst part is they are ever expanding the buffet of services. I think HD charges 99.00 for a garbage disposal install. 

I worked for a company that signed up to be the back-up installer for plumbing. The first few times we installed a water heater, we did not know that the store had already added $ for the install. It was when we got the paperwork for a normal install that we realized how little they were paying. 

Lesson for Big Box installer: NOT WORTH IT!!! 

I considered doing it to gain some free leads, but the paperwork is atrocious and they area you have to cover is a 30 mile radius of the store. I live 15 miles from the store, that could me a 45 mile drive for peanuts, no thanks. As much as I want work, I can't afford to spend a dollar chasing a nickel.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Indie said:


> I do not know how many installs the Big Box cretins get, but the worst part is they are ever expanding the buffet of services. I think HD charges 99.00 for a garbage disposal install.
> 
> I worked for a company that signed up to be the back-up installer for plumbing. The first few times we installed a water heater, we did not know that the store had already added $ for the install. It was when we got the paperwork for a normal install that we realized how little they were paying.
> 
> ...


I went through the same thing. Stretched me too thin.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Then we're expected to fix it or worry about their warranty when something goes bad ??? No thanks ,, i'll do other work


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Company I used to work for done installs for Sears. We installed micro hoods, wtr htrs, dishwashers etc. Boss was on us to increase profits. I told him to can the sears bit. We had to go to store and pick up unit. Sometimes took 45 mins. Drive to customers usually another 20 mins or so. Uncrate unit, customers says wrong color, shape etc.:furious: Return unit for correct unit and drive back for install. Sears says not theire problem if they sent us with wrong unit. We had to eat it. Boss researched the activity over next month or so and cancelled them. :thumbsup: They saw me in store recently and wanted me to do them, I almost laughed in theire face. They have no installers here,,,, go figure.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

Plumber Jim said:


> people like that are just ignorant. they must have had a quote to just install the sink. not all the rough work. People like that will find out the hard way but sad thing is they will be too embarrassed to call you back after they realize.


 Had it happen many times, especially with dishwashers I give price, told I'm too high!!! Then get called back 3-5 days later to do job, because Lowes said at time of install, they could'nt complete cause stop wont turn, need dual stop, cabinet need to be shaved to accomodate new machine, etccccc.
It's all good, smiling, I just remind people that I'd be happy to return and do the work, and to call the office when they need me.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> whenever I hear about lowes, I like to mention
> the class action lawsuit dealing with their water heaters
> to the customer.....http://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/whirlpool_water_heaters.html
> 
> ...


 
Next time your in the store, ask the guy in the plumbing isle if you need a themal expansion divice and if so what size, if he actually sais yes, ask him why:blink: Doesn't go over as well in uniform. I've thrown stuff like that at people picking up a heater just to get them thinking. Works well when in uniform.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

HD prices from the other day:

toilet install $99
disposal $90
faucet $99

I called the 800 # to get an install price on a water heater. After a zillion questions it came down to this:

basic install included removal and haul off of old tank, install of new tank with up to 5' of hard water pipe (I asked if this meant that if i had flex now, would they do away with the flex and replace with hard copper, she said yes up to 5'), testing of new tank for leaks.

basic install cost was $269.00
add txt $100.00
add stand $100.00
permit $25.00

total $494.00

Their 40 gal ng tank was like $375 (6 year tank)
add tax here and you get $412.50

For a grand total of $906.50. I charge more than that for just the tank, however, they are not as cheap as I thought they were and this works in my favor.

I can communicate the value of a $350 difference in their price and mine a whole lot easier than a $500 or $600 difference which is what I thought it was prior to calling.

Their still a bunch of cheap, low balling, sob's though.

On another note, I went to install two ho provided (glacier bay) widespread lav faucets the other day. Ho had them for about a year just never had them installed. Of course they came from the clearance table. Blowe's had quoted $90 each for the install. The lady asked why mine was $295 each but fortunately the man had a clue and said "that's alright, it doesn't matter, just get them in". First one goes in without a hitch, the second one is missing an o-ring and another gasket (yes the box had been previously opened). Assured the lady that she would not find parts at Blowe's but if we got lucky they could be ordered. They are nice people who hopefully learned a lesson. They are supposed to have the parts tomorrow. They will receive another trip charge.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*going down the drain working for LOWES*



plbgbiz said:


> Sears, Home Depot, and Lowe's all have the same routine here as well. Lowe's charges $269 for the install and an additional $35 for the permit if it is in Oklahoma City. They only pay the plumber half of that but they supposedly do use licensed plumbers.
> 
> The plumber only get's about half of that money so there are always going to be unexpected add ons. They are priced to make up for the fact that the plumber is losing money on the basic install. Results in fights with the customer. It's just a bait and switch to the consumer.


 
I worked for Lowes right after 9-11 for a few months......:laughing:
My mistake, but I learned quite a bit from the experience

Usually the class of people you are delaing with are the lowest out there.... worked for drunks, ect... and the cheapest skum of the earth..

You simply cannot make a living doing it ..... 
you will literally sit in their store waiting for an hour just to get your hands on a water heater , then only to find out when you get to the job it wont fit , or the people have flat out lied about the installation.....

fileing paperwork for everything, waiting for products to be pulled when you showed up at the stores, wrong products when you got to the job, with nothing for your time and effort...

we even got into trouble because a bunch of fancy faucets someone bought would not work on their antique pedistle sinks in a 100 year old home.. homeowner was pissed that she had to take the day off work , and Lowes was pissed that I did not attempt to install something I knew would not work..

After about 3 months, I finally told them to stick it up their a//


we had an employee go in business and to work for sears, he was one of the nicer guys I ever had working for me and I learned later that he went under, burning gas and time trying to please them...


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## chuckscott (Oct 20, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> Sears, Home Depot, and Lowe's all have the same routine here as well. Lowe's charges $269 for the install and an additional $35 for the permit if it is in Oklahoma City. They only pay the plumber half of that but they supposedly do use licensed plumbers.


It sounds as if Lowes, HD and Sears will follow the rules, somewhat, when forced by local authorities. Where I am they charge a lot less for install. I think this happens when they are not pressured from cities and counties to do it right. 


It was mentioned before and worth saying again, if we fail to get the required continuing education, are late paying our license fees, or fail to get a permit then they (governing authorities) are all over us. These handyman/ jack of all trades types continue to fly under the radar causing potentially deadly situations and get away with it. 

I guess what I want to know is how can we force these hacks to conform and get educated, or to cease doing the work?

Any ideas?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

chuckscott said:


> ...how can we force these hacks to conform and get educated, or to cease doing the work...


This topic has been recently discussed on this forum and everywhere else in our industry for that matter. Ever since licenses were issued, licensed plumbers have been disgusted with those that are not.

Unfortunately, the enforcement of the licensing law is weak at best in many municipalities. The focus of most inspectors is on the day to day evaluation of the code worthiness of a job performed by a licensed plumber. Those selling services they are not licensed for stay well under most radars.

In Oklahoma City for instance, calling the city's inspectors to lower the hammer on an unlicensed job has limited effect. There has to be two verified reports of a violation before they can issue a citation and even then they have to get approval. Verified means they have to be either caught in the act or the customer has to provide proof of who did the job to the inspector.

Calling the Construction Industries Board (the state licensing enforcement entity) gets better results. They show up fast when a report is made and with expensive fines for even first time offenders.

Other than calling in a report of violation, there may not be much else we can do. I don't like people speeding through the school zone in my neighborhood but they don't let me right tickets.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> ...he went under, burning gas and time trying to please them...



 It's just a numbers game for the retailer. They lost nothing when that guy lost his business. They'll just look for the next hungry rookie, promise the world, and milk him till he dies.


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## chuckscott (Oct 20, 2010)

I don't want to sound like a whiner every time things like this happen. It is still a frustration though. I just wish there were better ways for accountability in the trades. I guess I can be positive and look at it as job security when I go in to fix mistakes. :laughing:

What seems ironic is that when I try to buy CSST at Lowes they ask if I am a certified installer before I can pay for it. You're kidding, right?

Well, I'll just keep on doing what I do....for now....


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## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

chuckscott said:


> I don't want to sound like a whiner every time things like this happen. It is still a frustration though. I just wish there were better ways for accountability in the trades. I guess I can be positive and look at it as job security when I go in to fix mistakes. :laughing:
> 
> What seems ironic is that when I try to buy CSST at Lowes they ask if I am a certified installer before I can pay for it. You're kidding, right?
> 
> Well, I'll just keep on doing what I do....for now....


 
whats ironic is that you don't want Blowes or HD to offer these services to the public, yet you support their bottom line by purchasing materials for your installs from the very company that is taking bread from your plate and the plate of the supply house and the employees that work there.:whistling2:

I will only buy from these companies if the supply house has closed for the evening or its a last resort. Put your money where your mouth is, end of story.


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## chuckscott (Oct 20, 2010)

Plumbdog said:


> whats ironic is that you don't want Blowes or HD to offer these services to the public, yet you support their bottom line by purchasing materials for your installs from the very company that is taking bread from your plate and the plate of the supply house and the employees that work there.:whistling2:
> 
> I will only buy from these companies if the supply house has closed for the evening or its a last resort. Put your money where your mouth is, end of story.


I have bought CSST from lowes once. It was a Sunday, the company I work for does not open the parts department on weekends. If I am supplying the material I will go to either our in house supply or to a real supply house. I agree that big box stores should be a last resort. I don't recall saying that I purchase everything exclusively from HD, Lowes or Menards. However, customers continue to purchase this crap and I am in no position to not install it. If I were in business for myself it would be another story. Just saying..


It should be added that the one time I bought CSST from Lowes I was asked if I was certified, I told her that I was. She didn't ask for the magic card or anything because I would have been screwed having not taken their special education CSST course.


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## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

I didn't mean to bust your chops there Chuck. i'm just sayin that they're are too many "Professional Plumbers" out there that will buy materials from these stores out of sheer convenience on a Monday and then ***** on a Wednesday when a customer wants them to install a faucet that they bought from the same store or they quote some ridiculos price for a WH install.

I just find a bit hypocritical.


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## chuckscott (Oct 20, 2010)

Plumbdog said:


> I didn't mean to bust your chops there Chuck. i'm just sayin that they're are too many "Professional Plumbers" out there that will buy materials from these stores out of sheer convenience on a Monday and then ***** on a Wednesday when a customer wants them to install a faucet that they bought from the same store or they quote some ridiculos price for a WH install.
> 
> I just find a bit hypocritical.


No worries, it's all good. I agree with you. I have worked with guys who crab like that but then go right back. Last resort is all these stores are good for. I don't know about where you are but we have a few suppliers with multiple locations to choose from so it really isn't an inconvenience to drive maybe a mile or five to get quality parts. 

Working for a company I don't really have the luxury of turning down work. I still get commission for labor, which I do jack up a bit to compensate for lost commission on parts. So it all pays the same, and I don't leave a job empty handed. I am sure it would be different if I were hourly. 

To protect myself, when installing cust supplied parts I have been writing clearly on my invoices that warranty is for labor only. Most customers understand that there is no way that I can warranty another companies stuff. Upfront on more than pricing..


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