# What's wrong with this picture?



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

What's wrong with this picture?


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

According to my code. You can connect CPVC direct to a gas water heater. . No EQ Straps


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Yep, now for the follow up. How does an entire hood get built this way and pass inspection?:blink:


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

It was inspected? Must have paid he off.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

all 50 homes


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Bet he was a friend of the plumber that did the work, how else could this come to be?


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## Double-A (Aug 17, 2008)

I'm really digging the "type b" vinyl dryer vent going into the ceiling and the high tech foil tape mechanical connection.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Double-A said:


> I'm really digging the "type b" vinyl dryer vent going into the ceiling and the high tech foil tape mechanical connection.


Should be double wall flue passing through there I think.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Double-A said:


> I'm really digging the "type b" vinyl dryer vent going into the ceiling and the high tech foil tape mechanical connection.


And the valves on both hot and cold water lines. One shut off valve on cold side down here.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

the two front valves are for a heater coil in the air handler nextdoor. only one shut off.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Protech said:


> the two front valves are for a heater coil in the air handler nextdoor. only one shut off.


Ahh, my bad. Still looks like poo:laughing:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

agreed


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## Double-A (Aug 17, 2008)

I install full port ball valves on the hot and cold on a heater. This is to be able to swap the heater quickly, drain down or blow down for maintenance or to be able to remove the heater entirely and loop easily for test purposes.

In service plumbing, the concept of too many service shut offs is just a myth perpetuated by stingy people that hate service plumbers and want to make our life harder.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Double-A said:


> I install full port ball valves on the hot and cold on a heater. This is to be able to swap the heater quickly, drain down or blow down for maintenance or to be able to remove the heater entirely and loop easily for test purposes.
> 
> In service plumbing, the concept of too many service shut offs is just a myth perpetuated by stingy people that hate service plumbers and want to make our life harder.


You can never have too many that's for sure.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Double-A said:


> I install full port ball valves on the hot and cold on a heater. This is to be able to swap the heater quickly, drain down or blow down for maintenance or to be able to remove the heater entirely and loop easily for test purposes.


That would be a code violation here, you can't valve the outlet side of a water heater, only the branches.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Double-A said:


> I'm really digging the "type b" vinyl dryer vent going into the ceiling and the high tech foil tape mechanical connection.


I believe what you are looking at is an Ameri-flex vent connector which is snapped into a B-Vent. I'm not sure what the aluminum tape was for but the vent connector is the only vent connector I am familar with which has a 1" clearance to combustibles based on that design.

Mark


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> That would be a code violation here, you can't valve the outlet side of a water heater, only the branches.


Is there a reason for that?:001_huh: We can (and usually do when repiping) and install a relief valve. No quake strap. No pan required when not in habitable space on first floor. No plastic allowed anywhere near the flue(though you wouldn't know it from the pic)

While where on the subject of water heaters, I notice the electricians NEVER install disconnects on heaters. NEC says heaters must have disconnect when more than 50 feet away from main panel or not in direct line of sight of panel. I see lots of heaters in attics, closets, utility rooms that are no where near the panel and definitely not in line of sight.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

I like to install two valves on water heaters, it makes it much easier to change them out. 

As for tape their were a few carbon monoxide poisonings from poorly installed flu pipes so now we are required to use it on all joints. Never mind that the problems were from homeowners and unlicensed folk that won't follow the rule anyway.


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

Slop crap like that really fries my  a$$. Then we get to here how we are all idiots in FL because one moron pulls crap like that and gets paid for it. That kind of hack crap is we should start :hang: on the town square. No expansion tank either? We are required to exp tanks on heaters in Lee County are you all not required to in Orlando?


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Expansion tanks are not needed unless the need for one is needed. Hope you don't need an explanation on that.


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> That would be a code violation here, you can't valve the outlet side of a water heater, only the branches.


*Ditto, cold only.*
*Makes for interesting discussion regarding the premade tankless kits....*


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *Ditto, cold only.*
> *Makes for interesting discussion regarding the premade tankless kits....*


On a tankless we can install a valve on the outlet side, since the unit has no storage to expand.


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Expansion tanks are not needed unless the need for one is needed. Hope you don't need an explanation on that.


No, I do not need an explanation. We are required by local ordinance to install them in the below fashion. The bulk of the homes fed by metered water supply have back flow preventers on them. Therefore several years ago the requirement to install them came forth. However, homes on well systems are not as an expansion tank exist on the system already. 

It is not a state code mandate, however the four counties I have been working in do require them. Which is why I asked the question.


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> On a tankless we can install a valve on the outlet side, since the unit has no storage to expand.


*This is gonna make ya wanna scream, tankless's still create expansion.*

*Some codes require a TXT on them.*

*I know first hand...had a customer that needed a TXT when the laundry, shower, or toilet shut off the PR would piss.*

*He had 80psi and wanted to keep the pressure for his shower.*


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Proud Plumber said:


> No, I do not need an explanation. We are required by local ordinance to install them in the below fashion. The bulk of the homes fed by metered water supply have back flow preventers on them. Therefore several years ago the requirement to install them came forth. However, homes on well systems are not as an expansion tank exist on the system already.
> 
> It is not a state code mandate, however the four counties I have been working in do require them. Which is why I asked the question.


The code says we install them, but it's not enforced.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Orange, Seminole and Polk County require a thermal expansion device on all heating devices.

State code but some municipalities choose not to enforce.

*504.4 Relief valve.​*​​All storage water heaters operating above
atmospheric pressure shall be provided with an approved,
self-closing (levered) pressure relief valve and temperature
relief valve or combination thereof. The relief valve shall conform
to ANSI Z21.22. The relief valve shall not be used as a​
means of controlling thermal expansion.

*607.3 Thermal expansion control.​*​​A means of controlling
increased pressure caused by thermal expansion shall be provided
where required in accordance with Sections 607.3.1 and
607.3.2.​
*607.3.1 Pressure-reducing valve.​*​​For water service system
sizes up to and including 2 inches (51 mm), a device for controlling
pressure shall be installed where, because of thermal
expansion, the pressure on the downstream side of a
pressure-reducing valve exceeds the pressure-reducing
valve setting.​
*607.3.2 Backflow prevention device or check valve.​*Where a backflow prevention device, check valve or other
device is installed on a water supply system utilizing storage
water heating equipment such that thermal expansion
causes an increase in pressure, a device for controlling pressure​shall be installed.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *This is gonna make ya wanna scream, tankless's still create expansion.*
> 
> *Some codes require a TXT on them.*
> 
> ...


If we install a shutoff on the hot side we have to also install an expansion tank at least twice the capacity of the heaters GPM rating.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

why would you have expantion on a tankless? delayed shutoff?


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

Protech said:


> Orange, Seminole and Polk County require a thermal expansion device on all heating devices.
> 
> State code but some municipalities choose not to enforce.
> 
> ...




I long for the day they create uniform code amongst our counties, unfortunately.... that is most likely a pipe dream.​


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## cincnc (Oct 14, 2008)

i take it expansion tanks are optional?


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Seems we could save time by asking "Whats right with this picture"


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## Wrenchboy (Oct 4, 2008)

Oh Lordy,,,,

I hope there is not a sleeping room directly above this service area.

Hell it could be weeping carbon monoxide allready

Do these folks a favor and sell them a proper vent,,,

If they don't accept ,at least a carbon monoxide alarm

This is "an accident waiting to happen"

Dave Doyle
Monrovia,Calif


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> On a tankless we can install a valve on the outlet side, since the unit has no storage to expand.


 
Well yes and no. By defination, there is no tank, however there is aprox 1/2" gallon of water within the internal piping. 

The next generation of tankless heaters will contain a 1 gallong tank, but this will be termed a "mixing" tank. Cool stuff and it actually has a good purpose!!


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> If we install a shutoff on the hot side we have to also install an expansion tank at least twice the capacity of the heaters GPM rating.


 
Hmmm.... Would it be to protect the closed hot side, or does the Xpan tank need to be incorporated into the tankless? Like the hot shutoff AFTER the tee for the Xpan tank?


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