# Uponor pex



## The bear

I am considering a change from cpvc pipe to uponor pex. I welcome any feedback from those using the uponor system. I am a service plumber so we would mainly use it for repipes and repair work. Also what is a better choice the m12 right angle or the m18. I would use the straight pipe rather than coils. I need my piping to be neat and straight. I am old school and a bit OCD.


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## Michaelcookplum

Are you switching so u dont have to waste time waiting for glue to dry? If so why not just sweat copper?


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## Boundry

Good move ditching cpvc, uponor pex is in my opinion superior to cpvc.


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## Epox

Uponor is excellent piping. 
As far as the drills go it depends on the use you have in mind.


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## JK949

You INTENTIONALLY use CPVC? 

Uponor any day! Milwaukee tool works great! Material gives me no challenges, much faster than CPVC, lasts much longer.

Majority of my work is up to 1".

I would contact a sales rep for help with jobs for larger sizes. Maybe you could borrow a tool in exchange for something.


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## The bear

In Florida if you showed up to repipe a building in copper I would probably get tarred and feathered. Copper has failed drastically in Florida. Our own county utility tells customers they do not recommend a copper system within their area. Since 1996 most plumbers are using cpvc or pex. My concern is that we are beginning to see failures on cpvc with no obvious cause. This year I had to repipe a familys 12 year old home that was piped with cpvc under slab. They had 5 failures in 12 years. Man reps blamed installation error which is convenient since original plumber passed away.Failures were all hot water and blamed on lack of thermal loops in original install.
This week a failure on a cold water stub out under lav sink on 6 year old home. Cut out pipe and found 2" split inside pipe. Last month failure on 1/2 st ell glued into male adapter on tub faucet. Hot side 5 year old repipe.


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## johnlewismcleod

I got the M18 mostly because I didn't want to have to buy it later anyway in order to run 1-1/4" and 1-1/2".

If I was confident I would never have to run anything larger than 1", then I would have got the M12.

The M12 is several several hundred dollars cheaper than the M18 and by all accounts they both work excellently.


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## okcplum

I use the m12 and it works great and I have not had it let me down yet.
I also got the impact driver and drill to match and at a pretty good price.

Cpvc is just plain wrong IMHO.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.


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## Protech

Michaelcookplum said:


> Are you switching so u dont have to waste time waiting for glue to dry? If so why not just sweat copper?


No, hes switching because the market demands it.


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## Tommy plumber

This is not my work. In my travels, I came across an under-ground being done. I have not done new construction in a while, but do codes in FL allow fittings of CPVC below slab? When I did new construction in the 1990's, the contractors I worked for used CPVC in 'soft'; in other words it was in rolls for looping under the slab. This is new to me, seeing all these fittings under a slab right before it's poured...:blink:... I must have been out of the game for too long.

I should add, now a days all I do is service. The last major constuction I did was a re-model about a year or so back.


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## The bear

As far as I know they are still putting it under the slab. I have seen galv,copper,cpvc,poly, and pex under slab in my area. Putting water piping under slab is like buying a new car and stopping at the dealers body shop and having the hood of the car welded shut.
I notice in the pictures there are no thermal loops on the hot water side. Manufacturer states they are needed under slab.


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## No-hub

cpvc is for pan drains and irrigation around here, wanna go out of buisness? Use cpvc. Supply houses hardly have any. Copper or uponor around here.


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## PlumberJ90

The bear said:


> In Florida if you showed up to repipe a building in copper I would probably get tarred and feathered. Copper has failed drastically in Florida. Our own county utility tells customers they do not recommend a copper system within their area. Since 1996 most plumbers are using cpvc or pex. My concern is that we are beginning to see failures on cpvc with no obvious cause. This year I had to repipe a familys 12 year old home that was piped with cpvc under slab. They had 5 failures in 12 years. Man reps blamed installation error which is convenient since original plumber passed away.Failures were all hot water and blamed on lack of thermal loops in original install.
> This week a failure on a cold water stub out under lav sink on 6 year old home. Cut out pipe and found 2" split inside pipe. Last month failure on 1/2 st ell glued into male adapter on tub faucet. Hot side 5 year old repipe.


I've found the hot water or even just cpvc in attics make it very brittle very quickly. The owner of my company knows it and still chooses for us to install it. Making comments like your making sure you have work in the future with this cpvc


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## PlumberJ90

Tommy plumber said:


> This is not my work. In my travels, I came across an under-ground being done. I have not done new construction in a while, but do codes in FL allow fittings of CPVC below slab? When I did new construction in the 1990's, the contractors I worked for used CPVC in 'soft'; in other words it was in rolls for looping under the slab. This is new to me, seeing all these fittings under a slab right before it's poured...:blink:... I must have been out of the game for too long.
> 
> I should add, now a days all I do is service. The last major constuction I did was a re-model about a year or so back.


Cpvc fittings are allowed in the ground in FL. CPVC is what my company almost exclusively uses. Unless is sch 80 or copper spec'd commercial. We have put cpvc under the slab for hot cold and recirc lines. Even in multi-million dollar homes in the past few years


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## OldSchool

PlumberJ90 said:


> I've found the hot water or even just cpvc in attics make it very brittle very quickly. The owner of my company knows it and still chooses for us to install it. Making comments like your making sure you have work in the future with this cpvc


Actually your boss is a fool ...

What he is making is future work for other plumbing companies because they won't hire him to make any future repairs on crap materials and business ethics like that ...

No wonder I keep getting more clients everyday .., some fool was doing work for them before me


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## PlumberJ90

OldSchool said:


> Actually your boss is a fool ...
> 
> What he is making is future work for other plumbing companies because they won't hire him to make any future repairs on crap materials and business ethics like that ...
> 
> No wonder I keep getting more clients everyday .., some fool was doing work for them before me


Yes, I completely agree. However I just do what im told. I may not like what im told to do but I NEED a job. And haven't had any luck finding another one.


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## bcp2012

Has anyone used the CPVC that is called aqua rise? Before I went on my own the company I worked for did a re pipe in a nursing home with it. I didn't mind it but we had to do expansion loops in it

Sent from my iPhone


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## PlumberJ90

All we use is flogaurd gold. Never done loops either.


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## bcp2012

Could be that aqua rise is a trade name for a product up here in Canada

Sent from my iPhone


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## Protech

PlumberJ90 said:


> All we use is flogaurd gold. Never done loops either.


Your local service plumber thanks you :thumbsup:


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## The bear

Check out website of pipe manufacturers. Read installation guidelines about themal expansion loops especially under slab. I do not want to name any particular manufacturers. Also I did not know until this year that the lifetime warranty sheets we had were no longer valid. Flowguard gold is no longer lifetime but ten years.
I am considering a change because I have always tried to use what I felt are the best products for my customers. I cannot continue to install a product that is starting to have failures in the field. Also in Florida the plumber will be expected to take responsibility for any cost incurred from a failure. Product liability laws hold us liable for twelve years. Most plumbers do not have deep pockets so it will be hard to defend ourselves from liability from defects.


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## The bear

Service call I went on today is a prime example of manufacturers making junk products. Homeowner in condo called today for repair work. Upon arrival found condo repiped with a manibloc system for polybutlene. There is a seperate water line from manibloc to each fixture. No cutoffs under sink,lavs,toilets,or water heater.On top of that pipe to manibloc is cpvc. Both hot and cold lines are coffee colored. Main cutoff was cut in using pvc and cpvc fittings together.Workmanship throughout home was horrible.
Gave homeowner a written estimate for the work she wanted done and included priced for our recommended work. Told her that she would be wasting money on repairs. Home needs to be repiped whether it is us or another company.


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## Tommy plumber

The bear said:


> Check out website of pipe manufacturers. Read installation guidelines about themal expansion loops especially under slab. I do not want to name any particular manufacturers. Also I did not know until this year that the lifetime warranty sheets we had were no longer valid. Flowguard gold is no longer lifetime but ten years.
> I am considering a change because I have always tried to use what I felt are the best products for my customers. I cannot continue to install a product that is starting to have failures in the field. Also in Florida the plumber will be expected to take responsibility for any cost incurred from a failure. Product liability laws hold us liable for twelve years. Most plumbers do not have deep pockets so it will be hard to defend ourselves from liability from defects.


 





A GC was telling me about 'latent defect' one time. Something about the homeowner is protected against things they can't see. So a product warranty may start when a homeowner actually discovers a problem which could be years down the road; not when the homeowner closes on his house. Then of course many a manufacturer will pin a failure on installer not following mfg.'s instructions. And the buck goes 'round.... Correct me if I'm wrong with the 'latent defect' theory.


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## The bear

The last I heard was Florida Statute holds up liable for our work for 12 years from completion. Also if it can be proven that the defect was from gross negligence,such as installing an improper fitting knowingly, you can be held liable for lifetime. Our warranties that we state in our contracts are no defense from this liability. An insurance adjuster explained that a warranty is the time period we tell to our
customers that we will return at no charge to address their complaint. Our liability is set by statute.


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## The bear

Thanks everyone for feedback. Ordered 2 m12 Propex kits today. Next repipe will be Uponor.


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## Protech

The bear said:


> The last I heard was Florida Statute holds up liable for our work for 12 years from completion. Also if it can be proven that the defect was from gross negligence,such as installing an improper fitting knowingly, you can be held liable for lifetime. Our warranties that we state in our contracts are no defense from this liability. An insurance adjuster explained that a warranty is the time period we tell to our
> customers that we will return at no charge to address their complaint. Our liability is set by statute.


Latent defect law in florida applies to new homes only.

Implied merchantability is another ball of wax though.


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## The bear

Glad to know that because I do not do new construction. How would you classify repipes.


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## JK949

The bear said:


> Thanks everyone for feedback. Ordered 2 m12 Propex kits today. Next repipe will be Uponor.


You will be pleased! Try to schedule a meeting with your local rep for installation tips. 

When in doubt, leave the pipe on the tool for a few for cycles and let the joint rest a little longer. A neat story: I was working on a repipe and had made my last connection, I like to let things ret for at least 5 mins before testing, my co-worker did not. As he hit the air, I realized I heard air escaping from my last joint which became less and less as it set up. Hit the water, no leaks!


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## Master Mark

*slow morning here*

that is some butt ugly workmanship...

So what is going to keep the ground from shifting 
around those cpvc.. joints...?? 

Even if they were to
put aramaflex on all the pipes I still would not trust
the expansion and contraction that goes on over time
in the concrete especially at the joints....

In this state we are not allowed to have any underground joints at all and that should be the code 
for the whole nation...

After seeing this slop I am going to pos the last job
I did out of Uponor pex with shark-bites..

 Uponor pex is the best , but I dont like the fittings or the expansion tools, they all seem to get out of calibration and leave me in a mess... 

I would rather use sharkbites 


.


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## Mpc_mhayes

In NC we have been useing pex for years. Loop underslab, no fittings. We use chrimp rings here. I think because we used poly before and all ready had the tools. CPVC is junk. Takes longer to run and its doesnt age well. ABout 2 weeks ago my helper was under a house working on a leaking waterline.CPVC. He mad the repair. I turned the water on. All good. On his way out it hit is head on a 3/4 tee. Man he got wet. Weak pipe.


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## phishfood

@ The bear, why have you decided to go with expansion PEX instead of crimp?


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## The bear

I guess the crimp rings remind me of poly pipe. Also like the fact that there are no crimp gauges to worry about checking the crimps I make. Did not find the uponor system at Lowes or Home depot.


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## phishfood

What is the price difference between crimp fittings + rings versus expansion fittings + plastic rings?


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## The bear

I do not know the difference in price between crimp versus expansion. My concern was the difference between CPVC and Uponor. Talking with other plumbers in my area I believe the biggest difference will be in the labor and the amount of fittings used.
Pex in general should be faster to install and less fittings.


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## Cuda

The bear said:


> I guess the crimp rings remind me of poly pipe. Also like the fact that there are no crimp gauges to worry about checking the crimps I make. Did not find the uponor system at Lowes or Home depot.


Not all crimps are the same, Viega has no crimp gauge and you won't find it at HD or Lowes.


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## JK949

Viega is good stuff, however I always keep my M12 kit on my truck. The Viega kits is pretty bulky.


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## JDGA80

I've never used the expansion pex but I hear you gotta be quick putting your stuff together. Of the copper and stainless steel rings I much rather use the SS. The one handed ratchet tool makes the joints easier to make cause you can hold the pipe with your free hand


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## The bear

Just finished repipe with Uponor. Had rep come to shop and certified us. Could not imagine using Uponor with a hand expander. Two M12's worth every penny.
A lot less fittings used compared to Cpvc.


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## HSI

JDGA80 said:


> I've never used the expansion pex but I hear you gotta be quick putting your stuff together. Of the copper and stainless steel rings I much rather use the SS. The one handed ratchet tool makes the joints easier to make cause you can hold the pipe with your free hand


It's not bad. There is a few seconds of time to put it together. If you don't hit the window you can expand it again without effecting the pipe.


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## wyrickmech

The biggest difference between uponor pex and the crimp pex is the flow rate is not restricted as much on the uponor. Researching the pex pipe I found that there is three types of pex pipe A,B and C . The A is uponor and has the 80% cross link and has a memory so it can be heated and it will reshape its self. The next is 60% cross linked which cannot be used with anything except the crimp ring system or shark bites. The third type I haven't found much about and I don't want to. The uponor is by far the highest quality with the most benefits . Other than the cost of tools I can't say anything negative about uponor.


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## MCarreira

I absolutely LOATHE cpvc. Yeah it's quick, but it's quite easy to make it look terrible (which most of what I've has has looked). Uponor (wirsbo) is great. I recently started using it after seeing some that's been installed for a few years holding up very nicely. Cpvc tends to get very brittle over time and when you try to cut it with a normal squeeze/ratchet type cutter, it shatters. Either a wheel cutter or hacksaw easily fixes that problem, however (I don't know about you guys) but I really don't trust it. I've been using viega pex for a couple years and like that too. Just stay away from anything push fit.


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## wyrickmech

Cpvc is out dated and has proved itself to fail over time. The uponor is newer but has a better track record so far. I do agree with the point that cpvc looks bad .I used it on two houses and I decided after finished the second one that no matter how much the owner wanted it I would not install it anymore . I went back to copper now I will use uponor.


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## suzie

Uponor or Pure links are both good Uponor price point is higher though


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## wyrickmech

suzie said:


> Uponor or Pure links are both good Uponor price point is higher though


Is pure links class A pex? Where do you find it?


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## truckman5000

we just completed a 300 unit condo. Each unit is cpvc gold. The gc, used his plumber, we did everything else. The cpvc wasnt installed correctly and there is already problems.
But our code only allows cpvc or copper in this situation.
Job security:thumbsup:


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## johnh

I've used the uponor pex, zurn and veiga. Currently I use the zurn with the copper ring but I'm in the process of converting over to veiga. Veiga has a 1/2" long s.s. crimp ring that is very solid.


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