# Carlon "Super Sewer" Pipe Info



## ralphco (Nov 21, 2009)

I am involved in a forensic investigation of a failed septic system. We discovered a section of pipe that had been used in a previous repair (it had not failed, just had been incorrectly installed.) Markings found on the pipe were: 
4" Carlon "Super Sewer© Vantage™ ASTMO 2729 Perforated PVC Performance Sewer Pipe 2500# Crush 43215 4EL22F6C
It is 4" thinwall (kinda looks like SDR35?) PVC pipe with a bell on one end of each 10' length. It has 1/2" holes about every 12" at about the 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock positions.
I've been unable to find any information about when this pipe was manufactured. I have contacted Carlon which referred me to Thomas & Betts which referred me to Prime Conduit. It seems the company that made this pipe kept selling the division that actually produced it to another company. Any information or leads to that information will be greatly appreciated. :blink:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

WTF are you talking about ...

The bed is the bed what is leading to it is just a pipe ... 


You got to explain more if you want my professional advice


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

:blink: You're a plumber, Ralph? :shifty:


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

What? I'm lost. It didn't fail. Sounds like lech line. Why do you want to know when it was made ?


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## ralphco (Nov 21, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> WTF are you talking about ...
> 
> The bed is the bed what is leading to it is just a pipe ...
> 
> ...


Have a problem with English up there in Canada? If you tell me WTF your blabbering about a "bed is the bed" means, maybe I'll be able to explain that I need to determine the age of some pipe I found while consulting on a legal case. I hope this forum has some other people who really are professional and can help me out. I doubt any advice I would get from you would have any professionalism within it.


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## ralphco (Nov 21, 2009)

Yes, I'm a plumbing contractor in Northern California. The pipe itself didn't fail but the septic system did. I need to determine when the repair that contained this pipe was most likely made in order to determine who most likely made the incorrect repair.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

Wouldn't say if I did know. Sounds like a sue-happy world out there.

How old is the system? If the pipe is old enough that it outlasted several manufacturers, proving that it failed prematurely is a very long shot. So the pipe was installed incorrectly? Let me guess: the holes were up or sideways.

Is the failure due to the pipe being plugged? Well then, how often was the tank pumped? How often should it have been pumped? Are you sure there isn't a hydraulic overload situation? Are you sure the soils evaluation was correct when the system was originally installed? If the system was sited in C group soils and was designed for B soils you got problems. Are you sure there isn't a sodium buildup in the soils? What about medications? Illegal drugs? Oh, scented tissues and disposable wipes can kill bacteria and lead to organic overloading (suspended solids) in effluent. Did I mention that you'll need records from a certified water meter to prove that the residents didn't use more water than the system was designed for? Oh, have you checked the drain rock for tree root impaction? Did you know that dialysis, chemotherapy, drugs for treatment of lupus, etc can harm or kill a septic system? Hopefully these people can prove that they have used NO antibacterial products whatsoever because said products are a detriment to septic system biology and can cause premature failure. Oh, they don't bleach their laundry either, do they? I hope not, otherwise they might lose. Has anyone ever driven a vehicle across the drainfield? If so, the soils are compacted which can cause premature failure. Do the homeowners use additives? Excessive use of enzyme-based additives can liquify waste faster than the bacteria can digest it, leading to suspended organics which can reconstitute in the drainfield. I hope they didn't use additives, and if they did I hope they can prove that they didn't use too much. 

On another note, if this was a spot repair I hope the performance of the entire system didn't hinge on who used what kind of pipe in a spot repair. Wait, if there was a repair there could have been damage. Who damaged the original pipe, and when? 

Oh, regarding the perf pipe, if it was installed incorrectly 15 years ago it is clearly the installers fault that this system failed. Aren't your installers bonded where you live?

Good luck.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

ralphco said:


> Have a problem with English up there in Canada? If you tell me WTF your blabbering about a "bed is the bed" means, maybe I'll be able to explain that I need to determine the age of some pipe I found while consulting on a legal case. I hope this forum has some other people who really are professional and can help me out. I doubt any advice I would get from you would have any professionalism within it.


Don't mind OldSchool. He is definitely a hack. Just ignore him and deal with the real professionals on here.:laughing:

PM jnohs, I think he might be the person you are looking for.


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## ralphco (Nov 21, 2009)

SewerRat said:


> Wouldn't say if I did know. Sounds like a sue-happy world out there.
> 
> How old is the system? If the pipe is old enough that it outlasted several manufacturers, proving that it failed prematurely is a very long shot. So the pipe was installed incorrectly? Let me guess: the holes were up or sideways.
> 
> ...


Doesn't sound like I'm going to get much help here. Most of the potential causes of failure mentioned above are present in this case. This investigation stems from a neighbor dispute over an easement. The owner of the house that uses the septic system has blocked access to the lot that contains the septic system and well that serves the house. The septic system was originally installed in 1932. There were no permits or records kept at that time. The tanks are about 80' directly uphill from the well. Raw effluent was surfacing about 30' below the septic tank. The house owner bought the house in 1991 and was informed that the septic system had failed and that he needed to hook up to the sewer. That cost about $70,000 and he never did it.

The house owner claims the lot owner dug up his leach lines when he was cleaning up some brush on his lot and that is what made the system fail. He wants the lot owner to pay the costs of hooking up to the city sewer. A lawyer, a paid plumbing expert, and a paid onsite wastewater disposal expert were onsite while I operated an excavator and uncovered the entire septic system. One small scoop at a time. Sometime in the past, someone had replaced the tightline from the tank, that may have actually gone to a leach field somewhere on the lot, with 30 feet of this perforated pipe. The first joint of pipe had the holes up. The next two had holes down with a 6" rock blocking the end of the third piece of pipe. The entire 30' of the pipe ran downhill at about a 5% slope. It had no rock around it. That was the entire "leach field".

If the lot owner can show that pipe was manufactured after 1991, it will prove the house owner did this "repair". No recent damage was found to any of the piping. That's why I want to know how old the pipe is. Now, is anyone familiar with this pipe and have any idea if any of the markings on it contain a date code?


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

I seriously don't know, but I admire your guts for taking it on. I hope the pay is good.

Keep us posted on the outcome, I'm a full-time septic service and installation guy and am always learning. Sounds like an interesting case.

And if I ever get a call like that, I'm busy that day.


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## ralphco (Nov 21, 2009)

SewerRat said:


> I seriously don't know, but I admire your guts for taking it on. I hope the pay is good.
> 
> Keep us posted on the outcome, I'm a full-time septic service and installation guy and am always learning. Sounds like an interesting case.
> 
> And if I ever get a call like that, I'm busy that day.


Thanks Kendell
No guts involved. It really kinda fun once you get into it. The money's real good sometimes but I get satisfaction figuring out what really happened to cause the problem we are trying to solve.
When all the good land around here was used up, people started building on marginal soils. Engineers started designing pretty sophisticated septic systems and I started installing quite a few of the more complicated ones. The guys that had been installing standard systems were afraid of all the pumps, valves, controls, etc. and subbed everything out to plumbers and electricians. By figuring it out and doing it all myself, I was able to make good money installing them and have fun doing it. I'm too old to do that now, but this consulting keeps my mind in the game for a while longer.

Thanks again, Ralph


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

The pipe you describe is S&D perforated pipe. It's extremely common in Texas and every plumber knows what it is and what it can be used for.

I'm surprised it's not known to you.

30' of 4" leach field is totally insufficient for any septic system. The original was either clay or concrete and has been replaced by the screw up you describe by an unlicensed hack at some point.

I don't know how to date individual pipe sections.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Hopefully .... You are not doing this for someone else...

It's pretty bad .. If you would be charging some one when clearly you don't have a clue ...

Hang on ... You say to the customer ... I will google the answer ... Or at worst join a professional forum to get you the answer ..


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Carlon has been around for quite awhile. They make a lot of electrical conduit, boxes and such and for awhile they manufactured drainage pipe. Advantage is a thin-wall SDR approved for subsoil drainage. I doubt that you will find a date code on it anywhere and you might be able to email the current incarnation of carlon from their web site. Other than that I suspect you have hit a dead end.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

Plumberman911 said:


> What? I'm lost. It didn't fail. Sounds like lech line. Why do you want to know when it was made ?


Hes trying to locate DEEP POCKETS !:yes:

Septic system failed and someone has to pay. :laughing:


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## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

ralphco said:


> Have a problem with English up there in Canada? If you tell me WTF your blabbering about a "bed is the bed" means, maybe I'll be able to explain that I need to determine the age of some pipe I found while consulting on a legal case. I hope this forum has some other people who really are professional and can help me out. I doubt any advice I would get from you would have any professionalism within it.


Would have helped if you would have just said that in the first place.
Have you thought about talking to some of the supply houses in the area?
One of the old purchasing agents might be able to help?


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

I've seen green perforated thin wall septic pipe here in Texas since I was a kid . So its been around here alot longer than 1991.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Me too, I remember it back as far as the late 70's


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Same here.. worked with orangeburg in the mid 70's then switched over to sdr35 pipe


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## ralphco (Nov 21, 2009)

johnlewismcleod said:


> The pipe you describe is S&D perforated pipe. It's extremely common in Texas and every plumber knows what it is and what it can be used for.
> 
> I'm surprised it's not known to you.
> 
> ...


I have been a licensed plumber for over 37 years. I know what kind of pipe it is. I know what it is allowed to be used for. The original (or at least an earlier repair) used Orangeburg pipe. I know this pipe was installed by an incompetant person (that doesn't necessarily equate to unlicensed!). I know it was inadequate (it failed!). I just want to know when this repair may have been made (or conversely, when it couldn't have been made).


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## ralphco (Nov 21, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Hopefully .... You are not doing this for someone else...
> 
> It's pretty bad .. If you would be charging some one when clearly you don't have a clue ...
> 
> Hang on ... You say to the customer ... I will google the answer ... Or at worst join a professional forum to get you the answer ..


SewerRat told me to ignore you. I'll take his advice.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Carbon dating :laughing:

I Dug as far as I could and the numbers don't seem to have anything to do with a date code so I think your window is a good 30 years maybe more. Any other neighbors around that might have remembered a hole being dug?


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

ralphco said:


> I am involved in a forensic investigation of a failed septic system. We discovered a section of pipe that had been used in a previous repair (it had not failed, just had been incorrectly installed.) Markings found on the pipe were:
> 4" Carlon "Super Sewer© Vantage™ ASTMO 2729 Perforated PVC Performance Sewer Pipe 2500# Crush 43215 4EL22F6C
> It is 4" thinwall (kinda looks like SDR35?) PVC pipe with a bell on one end of each 10' length. It has 1/2" holes about every 12" at about the 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock positions.
> I've been unable to find any information about when this pipe was manufactured. I have contacted Carlon which referred me to Thomas & Betts which referred me to Prime Conduit. It seems the company that made this pipe kept selling the division that actually produced it to another company. Any information or leads to that information will be greatly appreciated. :blink:


This description trips my handyhak alarm system. Plumbers know S&D perforated is bell end, comes in 10' lengths, and will couple with SDR35.

We'll chalk it up to miscommunication, but frankly my warning alarm is still ringing.


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## ralphco (Nov 21, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Carlon has been around for quite awhile. They make a lot of electrical conduit, boxes and such and for awhile they manufactured drainage pipe. Advantage is a thin-wall SDR approved for subsoil drainage. I doubt that you will find a date code on it anywhere and you might be able to email the current incarnation of carlon from their web site. Other than that I suspect you have hit a dead end.


Thanks nhmaster. As I said in my original post, I've contacted various incarnations of Carlon and they haven't been able to give me what I'm looking for. Some of the Avantage pipe they made had a date code stamped on each piece of pipe but no ones knows if the numbers on "my" pipe contain such a code. You seem familiar with the Advantage name. The trademark expired several years ago. Have you seen it recently? Ralph


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> WTF are you talking about ...
> 
> The bed is the bed what is leading to it is just a pipe ...
> 
> ...



Translation:

I did not comprehend your post...

Here are some exclamations of obvious components of a system to qualify me as an expert....

Provide great superfluous detail that I may nitpick and invent cause to denigrate your plumbing skill and call you a hack. Have you considered using lye to correct the problem? It's thirty below here and I am often a cranky S.O.B. Your description of the pipe is quite generic and does not give any clues to the information you seek. Frankly, I am quite surprised that you think that providing the dimensions and design of a common component could garner any information regarding it's manufacture or history, as evident of my beratement of you as a professional.

My indignation overflows hostility towards you for having any questions about plumbing whatsoever, as if you were of the same caliber of professionalism as myself, you'd have all knowledge of plumbing. Shame on you for having such few posts on this forum and coming on so soon with any question, you could have at least gone back and searched my threads and given me thanks and a few "attaboys" for my plumbing prowess and abilities before begging for a generosity of my grace. Even if I had knowledge of the material in question, I would not give heed to your query until I had qualified your motives to be congruous with my mood. 

Let's start over and let me amaze you with the story about the time I unstopped a kitchen sink drain with common lye after having failed with insufficient and lacking equipment.........


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## ralphco (Nov 21, 2009)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Hes trying to locate DEEP POCKETS !:yes:
> 
> Septic system failed and someone has to pay. :laughing:


The person that used the septic system is looking for the Deep Pockets, not me. I'm trying to help the neighbor who is wrongfully being accused of destroying the septic system and being asked to pay for the house owner's $70,000 hook up to city sewer. If you guys would read the entire posts, you wouldn't make such inane statements as the one above.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I would like to formally apologize for certain members that apparently woke up with a bug up their ass :laughing:

Guys, we were all newbies once :yes:


Chris, your post was meant to be sarcastically humorous, yes?


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## ralphco (Nov 21, 2009)

Rando said:


> Would have helped if you would have just said that in the first place.
> Have you thought about talking to some of the supply houses in the area?
> One of the old purchasing agents might be able to help?


I did say that in the original post, I just tried to put it into simple words for OldSchool so he could understand the question with his limited command of the English language. I have called the two supply houses left in our area. The "Old Guys" there are in their forties! The guys I dealt with in the 70s and 80s are all gone now. Nobody there even knew Carlon ever made SDR pipe. But thanks for the suggestion.


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## ralphco (Nov 21, 2009)

johnlewismcleod said:


> This description trips my handyhak alarm system. Plumbers know S&D perforated is bell end, comes in 10' lengths, and will couple with SDR35.
> 
> We'll chalk it up to miscommunication, but frankly my warning alarm is still ringing.


Because I described the length and type of joints, I must be a "handyhak"? I'm trying to find information about a particular brand and style of pipe, that's why I described it in detail. BTW: At the local supply houses around here, the only SDR pipe you can buy is in 20' lengths, both solid and perforated. The big box stores are the ones that carry the 10' lengths. Plumbers know that too.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I would like to formally apologize for certain members that apparently woke up with a bug up their ass :laughing:
> 
> Guys, we were all newbies once :yes:
> 
> ...


Indeed.

Certain members don't just wake up that way, they go to bed with rectally implanted Roach Motel.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

My crystal ball doesn't show me a good ending for this thread right now. 

Let's see if we can't turn that around.

Keep things respectful people...

Thanks.

AG


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## ralphco (Nov 21, 2009)

ChrisConnor said:


> Translation:
> 
> I did not comprehend your post...
> 
> ...


Sounds like you might be OldSchool's Southern cousin?


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

ralphco said:


> Sounds like you might be OldSchool's Southern cousin?


Sheesh, you ain't too good at making friends, are ya? I just translated it to English for those who didn't understand.

What'd I ever do to you?:furious:


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