# Failed copper dwv



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Anybody ever seen it? I'm sure someone must have but I have not. The reason I ask is that I replaced a water heater today and while I was there I noticed that the dwv was split with respect to piping materials. It starts off at the fixtures with copper and then transitions via no hubs to cast iron. Here is the really odd part to me, the no hubs of course are recent, the copper dwv is ancient and the c.i. is ancient. My first thought was that someone cut out all the larger copper lines, leaving the branches and replaced with ci but all the ci had poured joints except for the transitions to copper which as I said were done with no hubs. I see copper dwv occasionally but haven't paid it that close of attention but thinking back on it now it seems that this is usually how I find it, copper branches to ci main. So having never poured a ci joint in my life I have to ask, is there some issue with pouring joints on smaller diameter pipe? I'm just trying to figure out why in older houses I always see smaller lines in either galvi or copper. Why not all copper? Cost? If cost why not all ci vs part ci/part copper? What about the no hubs? No hubs were not around when this house was plumbed I don't think. When did no hubs come along?

If I ever thought anyone would pay for it I would dearly love to repipe a house (it would definately have to be the right house, no crawl spaces) in nothing but copper dwv. This will probably never happen unless someone had good reason to spend the extra money which brings me back around to the original question, has anyone ever seen copper dwv fail? I've seen plenty of failed ci and galvi but have yet to see any failed copper dwv. What possible reason could I give to a client for doing this? PVC is always the dwv repipe material of choice (no abs around here). I know that ci (even now) is occasionally used in resi new con to minimize noise. Will copper do the same thing or not? I don't think this will ever happen at this day and time but I'm just always looking for different, saleable options to offer my clients. I just have to be able to have some good reason for offering them.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Lots of copper dwv failures in restaurant settings...residential some. There are several neighborhoods in the Fort Worth area that have all copper DWV systems.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

I have seen alot of copper DWV fail here. alot of it was used here in the 60's and early 70's it tends to wear on the bottom much like how a stream eats through the earth. Keep in mind people have a habit of using acid drain cleaners trying to keep drains clean and open which eats the copper up.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Copper is just as noisy as PVC, and it is subject to failure, especially if installed in a building that is on a septic system. I have poured thousands of 2" copper hub adapters into cast iron hubs, copper stacks are not used because of cost, it is 4X more expensive to install a 4" copper stack over a 4" CI stack, and more labor intensive. I have installed copper stacks in places where the architect would not provide an 8" plumbing wall to accommodate the size of the hub.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Here 99 percent of the homes built on a slab in the 60 had 2" cast iron under the foundation with a cast iron 90 turned up and then transitioned to 1.5" copper for K-sinks. Same for the washing machine. The main stack in the home was cast iron with the lavatory arm being copper. The tub drain arm was cast iron with a 1.5" heavy brass trap. The toilet arm was cast iron. I replace all the copper arms and branchs all the time and have posted many pics of bad dwv copper. I posted a pic a few months back of a badly attacked 3" dwv copper vent from sewer gas....It also split the cast iron also.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Plumber Jim said:


> I have seen alot of copper DWV fail here. alot of it was used here in the 60's and early 70's it tends to wear on the bottom much like how a stream eats through the earth. Keep in mind people have a habit of using acid drain cleaners trying to keep drains clean and open which eats the copper up.


Yep alot is found here also, and just as you said bottom gets eaten away, by harsh chemicals


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## Regulator (Aug 20, 2009)

The CP brass trap arms of the room sinks in extended care facilities I serviced often failed due rotting on the invert of the tubing. The cause was all the orange being poured in the sink on a regular basis.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Wow! Maybe I need to pay closer attention. I don't see a ton of copper dwv but when I do see it it's never the reason I was called to the home. I cut out ci and galvi all the time but I can't remember ever having to cut out copper.

I guess I've heard enough to kill the repipe idea.


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## PlumberDave (Jan 4, 2009)

copper is great for water dist. but for waste lines not so much. Most of what I have found is at the W/C's 3" copper just fails/splits/rots on the bottom just after joints leading me to suspect erosion.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

smellslike$tome said:


> Anybody ever seen it?
> 
> *This photo is a kitchen drain, verticle pipe from the basement up to a first floor sink. In the wall to the vent tee. *
> 
> *Now lets talk about copper going out on the bottom. Usually under the toilet. I am sure that all plumbers have seen the jet hole in a toilet blocked. And you all know the cause, people peeing in a toilet and not flushing it. Now lets assume that we have a 1-1/2 bath house. That would put one bath in the sleeping area. Also lets assume there are two childred about 12 years old and mom and pop and the family has the habit of not flushing at night because the toilet make noise. Pop gets up first and goes, now mom, at this point that toilet has a pretty high percentage of urine. Now in come the kids, they contribute to the habit, **but water finds it's own level. So a 1/2 pint in at the top means a 1/2 pint pure urine out the bottom. Pure urine in a copper DWV line will eat right through over time and look like a crack. This photo, I have never seen copper fail on the verticle before. Maybe he was __________ in the sink? *


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I've replaced a ton of vertical copper k-sink drains that looked just like your picture plumber Bill. I think its from old age and automatic dishwashing detergent.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Speak of the devil....I'm replacing some vertical k-sink drain today....i will post pics tonight. The H.O thought is was a leak under the slab on the cold water.....I go this mornign and rip the wall open and find vertical copper split wide open.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

We occasionally see the 3" copper vertical pipe from a closet flange to the el below it split. It looks like a line is cut right into the pipe. I belive that a water closet running for a long time will cause this condition.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ok here it is.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

^ That looks like somethigng that would happen with excessive flux just laying there.

Replaced a bunch just like that.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> ^ That looks like somethigng that would happen with excessive flux just laying there.
> 
> Replaced a bunch just like that.


 Thats from 40 years of automatic dishwashing detergent going down the drain or a faucet left dripping for years.. That stuff is corrosive.(water and detergent)


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

"So having never poured a ci joint in my life I have to ask, is there some issue with pouring joints on smaller diameter pipe? I'm just trying to figure out why in older houses I always see smaller lines in either galvi or copper. Why not all copper? Cost? If cost why not all ci vs part ci/part copper?"

In the 40's and 50's, when a lot of hybrid hub and spigot/copper waste systems were installed, copper and cast iron were close in cost up to 2" and it takes longer to caulk a 2" hub than to sweat a 2" copper joint or thread a 2" piece of gal. Plus, before the snap cutter was introduced, cast iron was cut with a hammer and chisel. It was the savings in labor that drove this type of installation. 
Even after the introduction of no hub, copper and durham (gal) were still being installed. In fact, Plumbworker still uses DWV copper extensively. Is it still prevalent in Chicago?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Thats from 40 years of automatic dishwashing detergent going down the drain or a faucet left dripping for years.. That stuff is corrosive.(water and detergent)


Maybe you won't hit a beam or footing on this one.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

slickrick said:


> Maybe you won't hit a beam or footing on this one.


 Oh I'm already done with this one. That use to be the outside of the house...you see the green asbestos siding i ripped off. No I didn't wear a mask either....ok so anyway I know how the houses were plumbed back then and they usually ran the K-sink line out of the house seperate in this area. They had added on to the house and poured a slab were the outside of the house use to be. I broke that slab out about 18"x18" dug down and found the pipe...cut it and bypassed the copper that was in the footing and the rest of the bad vertical. I used a couple 45's to get back into the wall and connect to the vent. installed a wye in the vertical for a C.O. I also replaced the fixture arm and all everythign up to the K-sink including the basket drains. No cast iron at the end of the vertical copper on this one.....however they did use L copper under the slab and it was in great shape and i connected to it.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Asbestos containing siding is not hazardous unless you use a grinder or circular saw on it. Rip it off (by hand) and trash it. Spraying water on it as you do it is not a bad idea.

I say this to protect the homeowner, your painful sickness and death intrigues me.:laughing::jester:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

"After" pics?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Nope no after pics......its pvc you've seen it 1,000 times.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Most of the copper dwv I replaced is rotted thru on the top of horizontal runs.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Here are 2 more pics....2 different jobs...same problem....split vertical copper.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Here is some 3" dwv copper or whats left of it I should say. This copper died a violent death by sewer gas.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Nope no after pics......its pvc you've seen it 1,000 times.


I never get tired of looking at it. It's like plumber porn. 

Aren't you proud of it?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Careful how you say that...
It might be enough that the pics will get deleted!:laughing:


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## Regulator (Aug 20, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> I never get tired of looking at it. It's like plumber porn.
> 
> Aren't you proud of it?


Durn it! I was gonna paste the Ridgid Calendar, "Plumber Porn" but it violates the rules! Who would have guessed, Ridgid Calender too risque for Plumber's Forum! :laughing:


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## Tieger plumbing (Nov 13, 2009)

Hi Bill, normally DWV systems fail because the thin wall becomes erroded from excessive velocity (Hazen Williams) beddies the harsh chemicals people throw down the drains.

If there is a copper system already there I use type L tubing with the Cast Dwv fittings


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Um.....:no:. First of all, the Hazen-Williams equation is for fully filled round pipe with cold water running thru it. That equation is used to calculate pressure drop on water mains. Manning’s equation is what you would use on drain lines.

Second, I have never seen or heard of velocity damage on gravity drain lines. What the velocity on a vertical stack??? You can get velocity damage (erosion-corrosion from cavitation and/or impingement) on pressurized lines but in order for that to occur on a drain system the line would have to be completely full and under head pressure. That would mean that the drain is undersized and maxed out to the point that the fixtures that it serves would be backing up and that just wouldn't fly.

Now, would you care plead your case and demonstrate how the velocity damage would be possible on a DWV copper pipe?:whistling2:



Tieger plumbing said:


> Hi Bill, normally DWV systems fail because the thin wall becomes erroded from excessive velocity (Hazen Williams) beddies the harsh chemicals people throw down the drains.
> 
> If there is a copper system already there I use type L tubing with the Cast Dwv fittings


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> Um.....:no:. First of all, the Hazen-Williams equation is for fully filled round pipe with cold water running thru it. That equation is used to calculate pressure drop on water mains. Manning’s equation is what you would use on drain lines.
> 
> Second, I have never seen or heard of velocity damage on gravity drain lines. What the velocity on a vertical stack??? You can get velocity damage (erosion-corrosion from cavitation and/or impingement) on pressurized lines but in order for that to occur on a drain system the line would have to be completely full and under head pressure. That would mean that the drain is undersized and maxed out to the point that the fixtures that it serves would be backing up and that just wouldn't fly.
> 
> Now, would you care plead your case and demonstrate how the velocity damage would be possible on a DWV copper pipe?:whistling2:


 No he wouldn't because its B.S. DWV copper wears out end of story...like everyone didn't already know that. I've replaced several vertical dwv copper drains in the past couple months......and I've been doin it at that rate since I started plumbing 20 somthing years ago. need proof??? check the pics out above that i posted.:whistling2:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> I never get tired of looking at it. It's like plumber porn.
> 
> Aren't you proud of it?


 Oh IL I'm not a proud person...I'm grateful:jester:


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