# Cast Iron



## Reinhard

Cast Iron should be banned from plumbing. Does anyone else agree with this statement? In my experience using cast or even replacing it, it is always corroded and full of everything you can think of sticking inside the pipe. Now I see no problem using it in venting in an open return system, you have to for fire codes. Venting will not hold materials like a drain will. I really think PVC or ABS should be the only thing allowed in waste lines. I even have my doubts about ABS. But that is better then cast.


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## Ron

ABS is king in my neck of the woods.


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## Reinhard

I worked for a company that used ABS too, it was fine. But I like PVC better. But my point was No hub sucks

I have never had more callbacks then on jobs with cast iron no hub. The pipe seems to just clog easy. It is horrible stuff. Never do you see PVC holding fats and oils like no hub.


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## SlickRick

Banned sounds so permanent....I would miss it when it's gone, used it for most of my life..


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## Reinhard

it is heavy and sucks, I would love it to be gone


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## TheMaster

Reinhard said:


> I have never had more callbacks then on jobs with cast iron no hub. The pipe seems to just clog easy. It is horrible stuff. Never do you see PVC holding fats and oils like no hub.


 Yes I see pvc packed with solid grease. Thats the users fault. I wouldn't consider a clogg a callback unless the pipes installed wrong. maybe I'm reading your post wrong......what are the cause of the callbacks?


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## Reinhard

Another thing that sucks, paying for insulation and fire caulk.
Wow have fire codes gone crazy, you must fire caulk and we even had to get out vacuum line fire insulated at $8.00 a foot. Crazy. 


the cause was using cast iron no hub, it always seems to clog easy


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## Pipedoc

I don't have a problem with iron. You never seen HO's standing around talking about how plumbers are too expensive 'cause any monkey can put together iron.

Can't say that for plastic.


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## Reinhard

it is junk

we have done many apartments, the only ones that have problems are the ones that had cast iron in the underground parking


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## SlickRick

Reinhard said:


> Another thing that sucks, paying for insulation and fire caulk.
> Wow have fire codes gone crazy, you must fire caulk and we even had to get out vacuum line fire insulated at $8.00 a foot. Crazy.


 
Calm down son, Your not taking Rocket Fire.....:laughing:


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## Ron

They say if it was easy it wouldn't be fun. Right.


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## Reinhard

we did not bid this, and you know how a change order goes

The architect never wants to take the blame.


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## Ron

Reinhard are you the owner of your company?


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## Reinhard

I should post a picture of the water heater from this job we are doing now, it is an 80 gallon with 1 1'2 lines going to it with the full boat a expansion tank and a serk pump.


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## Ron

Yea post a picture we all love pictures on here.


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## Reinhard

No I am not Ron, but I am the one who does everything with the company. Bidding and all


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## SlickRick

Wow!!


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## Ron

You spec out whats on the plans, and charge for all change orders, that how I understand it, they pay or you don't play.


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## Reinhard

look I go to the local exchange and I do the bids.

the rest is what my boss does

we have two local places that only deal with us. They do not even ask any other plumber or take bids. So we do the jobs pretty cheap.

We have one major contractor that only likes us.


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## Ron

Well I don't know what to tell you, but can you make post that are more then one sentence at a time,


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## user4

Reinhard said:


> it is junk


Yeah, those hundred year old stacks that are 25 stories tall in Chicago don't work, it's all in their head.


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## Pipedoc

Reinhard said:


> we have done many apartments, the only ones that have problems are the ones that had cast iron in the underground parking


 What kind of problems? How old is the installation?


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## SlickRick

3 pages in 30 min... Is that a record ?


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## Reinhard

Look all I was saying was cast iron seems to have a lot of problems and everything seems to clog the pipes up. Take it easy fellas use whatever you like. 


go back to using copper for your waste for all I care.


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## user4

Reinhard said:


> go back to using copper for your waste for all I care.



Funny you should mention that, we still do.


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## Pipedoc

slickrick said:


> 3 pages in 30 min... Is that a record ?


For a thread that is not t&m vs. flat rate or pex Vs. copper? Probably. :laughing:


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## Reinhard

that must cost you alot


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## Ron

I may have to merge your post if you don't stop with single line post.


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## Reinhard

all these post have been single line Posts Ron. Why should mine be any different?


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## Pipedoc

Reinhard said:


> Look all I was saying was cast iron seems to have a lot of problems and everything seems to clog the pipes up. Take it easy fellas use whatever you like.





Reinhard said:


> go back to using copper for your waste for all I care.


I don't know, maybe I am misreading you but it seems like you are throwing out a lot of attitude.

No one was bustin' your stones. Just asking questions. Right?

If I am misreading, I apoligize.


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## Ron

You seem to post 3 to 4 post after each other no reson for that when you could have run them together here I'll help you out merge time of your post.


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## Turd Burglar

I haven't seen that many problems with cast iron. If it is installed correctly and the drains are not abused, it can last trouble-free for decades.


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## Reinhard

I was not trying "to throw attitude" but if I was I apologize.
 


Ron I like to post what I am thinking, I could just wait and post one long one. But I guess I want to hear what people think right away, so I too post right away with my first thought.

I have never removed cast iron that was not clogged half way

it is junk and I know this, it should not be allowed anymore to be used in waste lines.


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## Pipedoc

Reinhard said:


> I was not trying "to throw attitude" but if I was I apologize.


:thumbsup:

No problems bud. Sometimes it is hard to read attitude. Sometimes it sounds like attitude when none was intended.


So back to my last question, what problems did you have with the iron on that job and how long was it installed?

Thanks


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## Ron

Thats fine I'll merge them all night if I have to


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## Reinhard

What is wrong with posting a quick message Ron? That way the others can read what you think and respond. 


That is kind of the point of a message board. 


I have no idea what you mean with the merge thing.


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## Ron

Nothing wrong at all, but way should you get to pad your post count and no one else can?


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## Reinhard

Oh I do not care about that my friend

set me to one for all I care

I am here to talk not to make points


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## Pipedoc

Pipedoc said:


> So back to my last question, what problems did you have with the iron on that job and how long was it installed?
> 
> Thanks


So how about it Reinhard?


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## Reinhard

why? I have been nice...

let me be.... I AM A PLUMBER! and I like the site! let me stay!


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## Protech

In most cases would agree. There are applications where you want iron and not plastic though. But 90% of the time I would say you are spot on. The only trouble is, what will we all do in 30 years when all the rusted out iron has been replaced?

We went thru that in Orlando. All the galvo and copper went and there was a flurry of repiping. Now there are no more houses left to repipe. Well there have been a few cpvc house that had cracking problems or chemical contamination. But nothing like the metallic lines. I’m just waiting on all this cpvc that was slung into the attic to start popping from become brittle. 




Reinhard said:


> Cast Iron should be banned from plumbing. Does anyone else agree with this statement? In my experience using cast or even replacing it, it is always corroded and full of everything you can think of sticking inside the pipe. Now I see no problem using it in venting in an open return system, you have to for fire codes. Venting will not hold materials like a drain will. I really think PVC or ABS should be the only thing allowed in waste lines. I even have my doubts about ABS. But that is better then cast.


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## Protech

We have been over that a million times spider, Chicago is an anomaly. In many parts of the country that iron can rot away in 30 years or less. I'm lucky enough to live in one of those areas. My concrete saws and jack hammer get plenty of work. In fact, the best paying job my company has done to date was replacing cast iron that was rotted away from the 70s.




Killertoiletspider said:


> Yeah, those hundred year old stacks that are 25 stories tall in Chicago don't work, it's all in their head.


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## Pipedoc

But think of all that good job security Protech.


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## Protech

I refuse to install something that I know will be outlasted by another product (assuming the property owner is willing to pay)

You guys want a peak in my head when I think "cast iron"?

This is what I see (16 pictures total):


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## Protech

Set 2


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## Protech

set 3


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## Protech

last one


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## Airgap

Reinhard said:


> Oh I do not care about that my friend
> 
> set me to one for all I care
> 
> I am here to talk not to make points


 I think you might want to edit that last line...


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## Protech

Those are just the ones I can quickly dig up. I've got many more. Oh yeah, that's some good stuff.


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## Bollinger plumber

I think of cast iron as job security. Please don't stop using it until I retire. Just 10 more yrs please.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

Sounds like Reinhard is someone I know. I wonder if he is gods gift to plumbing? I wonder if he could post some pictures of the talent that he has that is sooo much better than ours.


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## stillaround

Temperature is a good reason to use cast. Floor drains for a hospital sterilizer or units with steam even with sch. 80 indirect waste can sag.


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## Pipedoc

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Sounds like Reinhard is someone I know. I wonder if he is gods gift to plumbing? I wonder if he could post some pictures of the talent that he has that is sooo much better than ours.


 Starts with an H and ends with an E?


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

bingo


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## Ron

He is from Mississippi, it is not who you think he is. Unless he moved


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## SewerRatz

Protech, for every picture of bad cast iron you have I can so you PVC choked up just as bad. Also I can show you pictures of cast iron lines that are 30 + years old that are just as good as the day they where installed.


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## 1703

I know I've chased my fair share of rotten cast iron under com. kitchen floors.

I'm not sure that means it's junk, tho.

I do think that the quality of CI made today is not the same as it was 30 yrs ago.


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## Ron

I know who he is now.


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## PLUMB TIME

Well Ron, do tell. H-----e?:whistling2:


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## Optimus Primer

Since we're on a discussion of cast iron, why do they call a cap a blind plug?


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## user4

house plumber said:


> Since we're on a discussion of cast iron, why do they call a cap a blind plug?


Because it's not a cap, it plugs a hub.


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## Optimus Primer

Killertoiletspider said:


> Because it's not a cap, it plugs a hub.


But it can be used as a cap in no hub legally, right?


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## user4

house plumber said:


> But it can be used as a cap in no hub legally, right?


Not here, a No Hub blind plug has the raised lip around the end of the fitting like any other No Hub fitting, a service weight blind plug does not have that lip, and therefore can't be used as a no hub fitting.


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## Protech

The 50s stuff seems to always outlast the newer stuff. I replace no-hub every week, but it's rare that I replace any old lead and oakum.

Seems like the older it is, the better it was.



Colgar said:


> I know I've chased my fair share of rotten cast iron under com. kitchen floors.
> 
> I'm not sure that means it's junk, tho.
> 
> I do think that the quality of CI made today is not the same as it was 30 yrs ago.


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## SewerRatz

I wonder how much of that No-Hub CI you guys are replacing is made in China? One thing I did notice is that No-Hub verses standard service weight bell and spigot CI, is that the No-Hub is much thinner and cheaper feeling.


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## Protech

I have not noticed any weight differences. I do notice a huge difference in corrosion resistance. I've cut into CI in 100 year old homes that has maybe a 1/8" thick layer of rust scale. Then I cut into 30 year old CI that typically has layer of rust scale 1/2" to 3/4" thick or has rotted thru completely. You tell me? There is a definite difference in the metallurgy of the 2 pipes. I would certainly believe that it because they were made in china nut then again the American CI manufacturers could have just changed the metallurgy over the years to.


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## Protech

I guess what I'm saying is, if you can find me someone selling that stuff in the antique homes I'll buy it and install it. Until that happens I’ll be installing PVC and to a lesser extent ABS.


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## TheMaster

I think the cast from the past was better in some cases also. The cast iron soil pipe institute has alot of information available in a pdf online. Check it out. I think its called the cast iron pipe handbook or somthing. Alabama was leading producer of cast iron pipe at one time.


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## SewerRatz

Buy some XH CI or some Ductile iron.


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## TheMaster

SewerRatz said:


> Buy some XH CI or some Ductile iron.


 I think the point is to compare the same weight pipe from today as say 60 years ago. Take service weight pipe from 1950 and service weight of 2009 and compare the quality of the cast iron. I'm saying that some of the older cast iron had a more desirable composition than the cast pipe of the same weight produced today. All pipe being domestic made.


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## SewerRatz

TheMaster said:


> I think the point is to compare the same weight pipe from today as say 60 years ago. Take service weight pipe from 1950 and service weight of 2009 and compare the quality of the cast iron. I'm saying that some of the older cast iron had a more desirable composition than the cast pipe of the same weight produced today. All pipe being domestic made.


 All the homes I been in that where built in the 1950's have XH cast iron, heck I think even most of the homes in the early 1970's has XH in it. Done a few stack replacements in homes built in the 80's and newer they have service weight cast iron.


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## TheSkinnyGuy

Reinhard said:


> Cast Iron should be banned from plumbing. Does anyone else agree with this statement? In my experience using cast or even replacing it, it is always corroded and full of everything you can think of sticking inside the pipe. Now I see no problem using it in venting in an open return system, you have to for fire codes. Venting will not hold materials like a drain will. I really think PVC or ABS should be the only thing allowed in waste lines. I even have my doubts about ABS. But that is better then cast.


 
if it was banned then many of my service calls would go away after a while... nah, keep it, and I'll keep servicing it and selling repipes :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## user4

No Hub and service weight are not the same wall thickness, no hub is thinner. The biggest problem I see with the cast iron pipe made nowadays is poorly spun pipe that is not the same wall thickness all the way around, but rather one side is thinner than the other.


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## TheMaster

I got these figures from the soil pipe handbook for 4" cast iron pipe.
Hubless: nominal o.d. 4.38" nominal thickness .19"
service weight: 4.30 and .18"
extra heavy: 4.50 and .25
Reference used: 2006 cast iron handbook chapter 5,Table one,page 72.


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## retired rooter

when I started no hub was just getting approval around here.(it was all poured joints terricada(clay) ,orangeburg,even see some cement in older areas) and we had a few years (2000 to 2008?? I think, help me master) that we could only use ductile between the house and main(for sewers) even on residental that was an over kill IMHO but we are back to normal and use what ever we want now as long as its approved by our enviormental services dept.(cast iron , pvc ductile etc). It was so much better when we had a plumbing inspector who checked out all the plumbing not just the sewers, jefferson county alabama is a strange place to work but I guess all places have their ups and downs Out in rural areas they have one inspector for everything elect, plumbing , foundations etc. 1 job 1 inspector eccept the septic system its state wide


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## SlickRick

retired rooter said:


> when I started no hub was just getting approval around here.(it was all poured joints terricada(clay) ,orangeburg,even see some cement in older areas) and we had a few years (2000 to 2008?? I think, help me master) that we could only use ductile between the house and main(for sewers) even on residental that was an over kill IMHO but we are back to normal and use what ever we want now as long as its approved by our enviormental services dept.(cast iron , pvc ductile etc). It was so much better when we had a plumbing inspector who checked out all the plumbing not just the sewers, jefferson county alabama is a strange place to work but I guess all places have their ups and downs Out in rural areas they have one inspector for everything elect, plumbing , foundations etc. 1 job 1 inspector eccept the septic system its state wide


Ductile for a building sewer...That is radical. hope they had c/o . :yes:


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## Herk

I'll chime in. My first impression of no-hub was that it was just plain flimsy. I haven't changed that opinion. 

I have replaced a lot of both no-hub and ty-seal pipe that was only 30 years old. The pipe was not just bad, it was really bad. You could put your hand through it just about anywhere along its length (horizontal). 

Now, duriron, that's a different story. Good stuff.


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## SlickRick

Herk said:


> I'll chime in. My first impression of no-hub was that it was just plain flimsy. I haven't changed that opinion.
> 
> I have replaced a lot of both no-hub and ty-seal pipe that was only 30 years old. The pipe was not just bad, it was really bad. You could put your hand through it just about anywhere along its length (horizontal).
> 
> Now, duriron, that's a different story. Good stuff.


Yea, for acid wast.... :yes:


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## WestCoastPlumber

Reinhard said:


> Cast Iron should be banned from plumbing. Does anyone else agree with this statement? In my experience using cast or even replacing it, it is always corroded and full of everything you can think of sticking inside the pipe. Now I see no problem using it in venting in an open return system, you have to for fire codes. Venting will not hold materials like a drain will. I really think PVC or ABS should be the only thing allowed in waste lines. I even have my doubts about ABS. But that is better then cast.


 
Trades should outlaw ABS and PVC, it is the material of handyman across the nation.

I pull out cast that is 40-70 years old, I pull out ABS that is 15-20 years old.

Think abiout it. Besides ABS and PVC dumbed downt he trade, looks like crap installed, Cast iron in my book is harder to move, but looks better installed and is easier to install.

DOWN WITH PVC AND ABS!!! :laughing:


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## TheMaster

WestCoastPlumber said:


> Trades should outlaw ABS and PVC, it is the material of handyman across the nation.
> 
> I pull out cast that is 40-70 years old, I pull out ABS that is 15-20 years old.
> 
> Think abiout it. Besides ABS and PVC dumbed downt he trade, looks like crap installed, Cast iron in my book is harder to move, but looks better installed and is easier to install.
> 
> DOWN WITH PVC AND ABS!!! :laughing:


 How does abs and pvc dumb down the trade but yet you say cast iron is easier to install?


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## SlickRick

Material is material, The picture is painted by the artist. There are different materials and systems all around the world and they work just fine. I was very opinionated that the UPC was the only code. Until I became a plumbing inspector and delt with other code bodies. I found out they are just peoples opinions that form codes. All we can do as plumbers is to install and maintain our work like the craftspersons (do you like that word?) we are....I will be running for office and would appreciate your vote....


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## Pipedoc

Seeing as your pro-gun, you get my vote Rick.


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## coolwater

Pipedoc said:


> I don't have a problem with iron. You never seen HO's standing around talking about how plumbers are too expensive 'cause any monkey can put together iron.
> 
> Can't say that for plastic.


:thumbsup:

In all seriousness cast iron is needed where PVC/ABS would crush.. like when you have a 4+ interval stack and offsets are prohibited.. We use PVC in Ga and it will collapse under a stack larger than 30ft.. its code down here for most commercial slabs more that 3 stories


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## Plumber Jim

coolwater said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> In all seriousness cast iron is needed where PVC/ABS would crush.. like when you have a 4+ interval stack and offsets are prohibited.. We use PVC in Ga and it will collapse under a stack larger than 30ft.. its code down here for most commercial slabs more that 3 stories


You mean you would actually have the weight of the stack of 4 plus floors without support at each floor? the weight of the stack shouldn't be on the drain below. we use riser clamps.


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## coolwater

Plumber Jim said:


> You mean you would actually have the weight of the stack of 4 plus floors without support at each floor? the weight of the stack shouldn't be on the drain below. we use riser clamps.


umm no.. never said "without support" we use riser clamps too.. but its code that any building over 3 intervals must use CI or DI as plumbing under the top three intervals..
besides..what if the clamps fail?


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## SlickRick

Plumber Jim said:


> You mean you would actually have the weight of the stack of 4 plus floors without support at each floor? the weight of the stack shouldn't be on the drain below. we use riser clamps.


 
you beat me to that question..


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## BigApplePlumber

I've used cast iron my entire life and not once did I get a call back for a clog. Maybe it's not the pipe that sucks. I don't know what it is with everyone and this plastic pipe garbage. That's pre-school, time to grow up and get schooled by real plumbers who work with real pipe. I've taken out cast over a hundred years old and not a damn thing wrong with it. If you wanted to work with plastic there's a company by my job that distributes drinking straws.......I'll put in the good word if anyone is interested.


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## SlickRick

BigApplePlumber said:


> I've used cast iron my entire life and not once did I get a call back for a clog. Maybe it's not the pipe that sucks. I don't know what it is with everyone and this plastic pipe garbage. That's pre-school, time to grow up and get schooled by real plumbers who work with real pipe. I've taken out cast over a hundred years old and not a damn thing wrong with it. If you wanted to work with plastic there's a company by my job that distributes drinking straws.......I'll put in the good word if anyone is interested.


How about a intro before getting all crazy..


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## TheMaster

BigApplePlumber said:


> I've used cast iron my entire life and not once did I get a call back for a clog. Maybe it's not the pipe that sucks. I don't know what it is with everyone and this plastic pipe garbage. That's pre-school, time to grow up and get schooled by real plumbers who work with real pipe. I've taken out cast over a hundred years old and not a damn thing wrong with it. If you wanted to work with plastic there's a company by my job that distributes drinking straws.......I'll put in the good word if anyone is interested.


 Hey you real plumber...welcome to my class. The topic today is how you can deflect a cast iron joint 5 degrees because your sloppy and cant run pipe straight so when I try to replace it with plastic because the ****s rotten and the angles dont line up because some real plumber doesn't know how to make a 45 a real 45. Sip on that with ya straw:laughing:


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## Protech

Go back and look at the pictures.

I'm a master plumber (are you?) and I use all kinds of plastic pipe. By the general tone and content of your post I would peg you as a union journeymen who has done little work outside of your home turf. You are probably a construction oriented plumber who does mainly high rise work with little experience in the service side of things.

BTW, you do realize that you are a minority now right?



BigApplePlumber said:


> I've used cast iron my entire life and not once did I get a call back for a clog. Maybe it's not the pipe that sucks. I don't know what it is with everyone and this plastic pipe garbage. That's pre-school, time to grow up and get schooled by real plumbers who work with real pipe. I've taken out cast over a hundred years old and not a damn thing wrong with it. If you wanted to work with plastic there's a company by my job that distributes drinking straws.......I'll put in the good word if anyone is interested.


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## RealLivePlumber

I guess he's a pexist, too.:thumbup:


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## 1703

BigApplePlumber said:


> ....I've taken out cast over a hundred years old and not a damn thing wrong with it.


So have I. 

I've also taken out cast iron that's less than 20 years old that the bottom third is rotted away.


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## SlickRick

Come on BigApple plumber...Do a intro. Then you can get back in the game. We would like to here from you.....


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## user4

I don't think I ever did an intro, but I was also here before almost everyone else.


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## Protech

slickrick said:


> Come on BigApple plumber...Do a intro. Then you can get back in the game. We would like to here from you.....


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## stillaround

BigApplePlumber said:


> I've used cast iron my entire life and not once did I get a call back for a clog. Maybe it's not the pipe that sucks. I don't know what it is with everyone and this plastic pipe garbage. That's pre-school, time to grow up and get schooled by real plumbers who work with real pipe. I've taken out cast over a hundred years old and not a damn thing wrong with it. If you wanted to work with plastic there's a company by my job that distributes drinking straws.......I'll put in the good word if anyone is interested.


 Finally, a real plumber ...schooled, experienced and ready to straighten out this huge mess.


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## ROTOR KING

Cast iron ,with the gases,ends up corroding,and splitting,I,ve seen ABS split in restaurants,PVC is more brittle than ABS.as far as a piece of rock hitting it.I think PVC is the better product.I could say good bye to cast.Is PVC fireproof,I know in some parts of the city,and commercial,we,re not allowed ABS.


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## ROTOR KING

stillaround said:


> Finally, a real plumber ...schooled, experienced and ready to straighten out this huge mess.[/quote NO disrespect,but being competitive,and in the business,you have to have a opened eye.If the product is better and installed quicker why not use it.Cast Iron ain,t as durable as it was 60 years ago.Every product has its advantages and disadvantages,use whats best to help your business.


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## 70bbc

Protech said:


> I have not noticed any weight differences. I do notice a huge difference in corrosion resistance. I've cut into CI in 100 year old homes that has maybe a 1/8" thick layer of rust scale. Then I cut into 30 year old CI that typically has layer of rust scale 1/2" to 3/4" thick or has rotted thru completely. You tell me? There is a definite difference in the metallurgy of the 2 pipes. I would certainly believe that it because they were made in china nut then again the American CI manufacturers could have just changed the metallurgy over the years to.


 big time weight diff from charlotte to china just snap a piece the china pipe splinters and when you look at it from the end the pipe thickness is not uniform junk. nh by far is better than pvc do a hospital or commercial kitchen pvc does not hold up under high temps ...


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## 70bbc

ROTOR KING said:


> stillaround said:
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, a real plumber ...schooled, experienced and ready to straighten out this huge mess.[/quote NO disrespect,but being competitive,and in the business,you have to have a opened eye.If the product is better and installed quicker why not use it.Cast Iron ain,t as durable as it was 60 years ago.Every product has its advantages and disadvantages,use whats best to help your business.
> 
> 
> 
> i agree
Click to expand...


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## Protech

When you say "it does not hold up" what exactly are you talking about. ALL of the restaurants around here are done in PVC and I haven't seen any problems. I'm just wondering what you are seeing that I'm not.



70bbc said:


> big time weight diff from charlotte to china just snap a piece the china pipe splinters and when you look at it from the end the pipe thickness is not uniform junk. nh by far is better than pvc do a hospital or commercial kitchen pvc does not hold up under high temps ...


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## stillaround

ROTOR KING said:


> stillaround said:
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, a real plumber ...schooled, experienced and ready to straighten out this huge mess.[/quote NO disrespect,but being competitive,and in the business,you have to have a opened eye.If the product is better and installed quicker why not use it.Cast Iron ain,t as durable as it was 60 years ago.Every product has its advantages and disadvantages,use whats best to help your business.
> 
> 
> 
> I should have used an emoticon...100% sarcasm...cant believe you missed that.
Click to expand...


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## user2091

Reinhard said:


> it is heavy and sucks, I would love it to be gone


 :no: i love cast iron, works great when installed right. looks great when done right. try doing 8" and above!! i was doing 10" and 12" on a lift last month looks incredible!:thumbup: i say keep it! nice and quiet. tested about 200' with air at 12 psi not a single leak! Hospital rain leaders. oh and don't forget the overflow! damn that **** is heavy!


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## user2091

all jobs that are bid come with submitals, drawings, schedules, charts, reports in accordance with approved specifications & standards. materials used being one. lots of city's and counties are different and have different requirements when it comes to this. ahj has the last say on what materials we use!


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## LIVBMI

We are a commerical contractor and use cast iron most of the time, mainly because of the fire code (Louisiana). The older cast iron is much better than the new stuff. We have been having problems with no hub cast iron on hi rise buildings split open (15-20 years old). This mainly happens on the vent lines from 8" to 2". Any way i like cast iron.


----------



## user2091

slickrick said:


> Material is material, The picture is painted by the artist. There are different materials and systems all around the world and they work just fine. I was very opinionated that the UPC was the only code. Until I became a plumbing inspector and delt with other code bodies. I found out they are just peoples opinions that form codes. All we can do as plumbers is to install and maintain our work like the craftspersons (do you like that word?) we are....I will be running for office and would appreciate your vote....


 :thumbsup: nicely put. You got my vote. I still think there is only one code UPC. :thumbup: U.A Craftsmanship


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## Plumbus

You want to know why modern CI doesn't last as long as the old stuff? It's not wall thickness, or uniformity. It's the EPA. Their restrictions on pollutants have required pipe manufacturers to reformulate the coatings they place on the pipe. The stuff they spray on the pipe these days doesn't hold up as well as what used to be applied. How do I know this? I asked. When I was a boy in the early '60's, I remember seeing slings of pipe sitting out in the weather. It was always completely black, whether it was service weight or nh. Now, if you leave nh out in the weather, it will show rust spots almost immediately. I've even noticed rust on the inside of pipe scraps that have been kicked around a job site, waiting to be thrown into the recycle bin. Fittings rust as well. They didn't used to.


----------



## Protech

I've had over 8 calls in the past 30 days on CI pipe that has rotted out. Most of those homes were built in the 60s and 70s. I just got a call a few minutes ago that I'm going out on in an hour about a home built in 1962 that has rotted CI lines in it. She’s been having problems for almost a decade.


----------



## Tieger plumbing

I strictly use cast iron hub cast iron / or XH when the accounts are willing to pay the difference.

The reasoning I use cast iron is

1- No toxic
2- easy to recycle
3- Quiet 
4- I use long sweeps on drainage thus much easier to snake waster jet then a PVC ell
5- Can support heavier loads (under ground)and requires must less clevis hangers
6- every joint is a possible clean out 
7- NHCI can be installed even with waste still flowing and under water 
8- Looks a lot more professional, then coming to a job with a hack saw and can of glue and primmer that anyone can put together with 2 minutes of training
9- Does not support combustion
10- Can be installed in direct sun light

I still use cast iron roof drains on 100% of my jobs, inside caulk by choice conections not because the code wont allow it I also use 4 PSF sheet lead for these drain installations as well as shower pans.

In 41 years of plumbing I refuse to put in a plastic roof drain /floor flange /floor drain

Plastic has its uses such as chemical waste and lawn furnature 

Actually If one wants the best of both weorlds use the plastic for venting (not through the roof) and use CI for drainage


----------



## GREENPLUM

Tieger plumbing said:


> I strictly use cast iron hub cast iron / or XH when the accounts are willing to pay the difference.
> 
> The reasoning I use cast iron is
> 
> 1- No toxic
> 2- easy to recycle
> 3- Quiet
> 4- I use long sweeps on drainage thus much easier to snake waster jet then a PVC ell
> 5- Can support heavier loads (under ground)and requires must less clevis hangers
> 6- every joint is a possible clean out
> 7- NHCI can be installed even with waste still flowing and under water
> 8- Looks a lot more professional, then coming to a job with a hack saw and can of glue and primmer that anyone can put together with 2 minutes of training
> 9- Does not support combustion
> 10- Can be installed in direct sun light


 
BS, :whistling2:


----------



## RealLivePlumber

GREENPLUM said:


> BS, :whistling2:


 Ain't no homeowner gonna run on down to the depot on a Sunday morning and pick up a 4" cast iron combo to tie in his new illegal basement bathroom, now is there?

Of course its more professional.


----------



## ILPlumber

GREENPLUM said:


> BS, :whistling2:


That is opinion. Not BS. 

You made a completely useless post.


----------



## GREENPLUM

RealLivePlumber said:


> Ain't no homeowner gonna run on down to the depot on a Sunday morning and pick up a 4" cast iron combo to tie in his new illegal basement bathroom, now is there?
> 
> Of course its more professional.


that scenario is like the 10,000 other's any one with half a brain can make up. I understand you think your more professional because you use CI, but you might want to step down from your high horse and look at things with a more opened mind. I also understand that the older you are the more frightened you are of change in the biz. You old timers should be scared of us new Plumbers, why, because I run circles around your slow azz, I take your contacts and cut you out with faster time and better price. You might argue that your quality is better but we both know thats BS, time is money and customers are looking at the bottom line so hold on to your CI tight because your gonna get cut out with it.:laughing:

Look people I know cast has its place but if its not a high rise or industrial building , bet your azz its PVC ,, around here anyway.


----------



## GREENPLUM

ILPlumber said:


> That is opinion. Not BS.
> 
> You made a completely useless post.


I understand its a opinion,,duh
thanks for buttin in with your normal BS


----------



## MT Plumber

Couple other interesting tidbits, especially for the PVC fans out there: 

PVC is only rated to 140F
ABS is rated to 180F
NH is limited to the neoprene in the couplings, 165F if I remember correctly. Higher temp couplings are available at a high cost, but we've tested the standard ones in boiling water for hours and no distortion or melting. Not sure where they get their specs.
ABS was actually formulated for building sewers, PVC was not. 
Flame spread of ABS vs. PVC is still being argued by engineers, AFAIK

Bummer is that in MT we can't get ABS for some stupid reason, nobody carries it that I can find. My thinking is: A) there is more profit in selling PVC and B) ABS has to be stored inside because of the UV issues, and our pipe supply houses are too lame to carry it and C) they wouldn't sell any more primer!!

So, for commercial drainage where you might get higher temp water discharge it's either NH or copper, or freight in some ABS. Other installs PVC ok.


----------



## ILPlumber

GREENPLUM said:


> I understand its a opinion,,duh
> thanks for buttin in with your normal BS


 
No problem your highness.

I will butt in as I see fit. I enjoy responding to useless comments. 

I believe your opinion of me is in the vast minority. I could be wrong though. 

You have 5 minutes to form a post before it times out. Try to think of something intelligent to say. Thanks.


----------



## TheMaster

Tieger plumbing said:


> I strictly use cast iron hub cast iron / or XH when the accounts are willing to pay the difference.
> 
> The reasoning I use cast iron is
> 
> 1- No toxic
> 2- easy to recycle
> 3- Quiet
> 4- I use long sweeps on drainage thus much easier to snake waster jet then a PVC ell
> 5- Can support heavier loads (under ground)and requires must less clevis hangers
> 6- every joint is a possible clean out
> 7- NHCI can be installed even with waste still flowing and under water
> 8- Looks a lot more professional, then coming to a job with a hack saw and can of glue and primmer that anyone can put together with 2 minutes of training
> 9- Does not support combustion
> 10- Can be installed in direct sun light
> 
> I still use cast iron roof drains on 100% of my jobs, inside caulk by choice conections not because the code wont allow it I also use 4 PSF sheet lead for these drain installations as well as shower pans.
> 
> In 41 years of plumbing I refuse to put in a plastic roof drain /floor flange /floor drain
> 
> Plastic has its uses such as chemical waste and lawn furnature
> 
> Actually If one wants the best of both weorlds use the plastic for venting (not through the roof) and use CI for drainage


 Pvc if installed properly it is superior to cast iron in a residental setting. PERIOD. Sorry to burst your bubble. I've also seen alot of ornamental yard art made from cast iron so its good in the garden too.:laughing:


----------



## Redwood

TheMaster said:


> Pvc if installed properly it is superior to cast iron in a residental setting. PERIOD. Sorry to burst your bubble. I've also seen alot of ornamental yard art made from cast iron so its good in the garden too.:laughing:


Cast Iron makes good scrap to sell to the Chinese too...:thumbup:


----------



## GREENPLUM

ILPlumber said:


> No problem your highness.
> 
> I will butt in as I see fit. I enjoy responding to useless comments.
> 
> I believe your opinion of me is in the vast minority. I could be wrong though.
> 
> You have 5 minutes to form a post before it times out. Try to think of something intelligent to say. Thanks.


 
seems I struck a nerve:laughing:


----------



## ILPlumber

GREENPLUM said:


> seems I struck a nerve:laughing:


Negative on the nerve strikeage. I'm not sure I have nerves anymore.

I think you know me well enough to know, I tell it like I see it.


----------



## ILPlumber

TheMaster said:


> Pvc if installed properly it is superior to cast iron in a residental setting. PERIOD. Sorry to burst your bubble. I've also seen alot of ornamental yard art made from cast iron so its good in the garden too.:laughing:


I agree.

I make PVC look just as artsy as C.I. 

PVC is much slicker than C.I.

There are long radius fittings in PVC as well as C.I.
I mean, come on, how long does the radius need to be?

I can install PVC 3 times faster than H&S C.I. and make it look just as good.

C.I. of the 50's was good ****. C.I. of present day is ****. "Be careful caulking that joint! You will break the hub!"

I run H&S were requested. If I have my choice it will be schedule 40 PVC. 

What I'm saying can be summed up in 2 letters

BS:laughing:​


----------



## user4

ILPlumber said:


> Try to think of something intelligent to say. Thanks.


I don't think I've made any intelligent posts.



TheMaster said:


> Pvc if installed properly it is superior to cast iron in a residental setting. PERIOD. Sorry to burst your bubble. I've also seen alot of ornamental yard art made from cast iron so its good in the garden too.:laughing:


PVC is a bit too noisy, keep it.


----------



## TheMaster

Killertoiletspider said:


> I don't think I've made any intelligent posts.
> 
> 
> 
> PVC is a bit too noisy, keep it.


 Yeah I get calls daily because its so noisy. You can wrap an upstairs to downstairs drain with lead or fur the wall out and add insulation. Most of the noise from pvc is from allowing the drywall to touch the pipe....like fools do trying to stuff a 3" pipe in a 2x4 wall.


----------



## RealLivePlumber

GREENPLUM said:


> that scenario is like the 10,000 other's any one with half a brain can make up. I understand you think your more professional because you use CI, but you might want to step down from your high horse and look at things with a more opened mind. I also understand that the older you are the more frightened you are of change in the biz. You old timers should be scared of us new Plumbers, why, because I run circles around your slow azz, I take your contacts and cut you out with faster time and better price. You might argue that your quality is better but we both know thats BS, time is money and customers are looking at the bottom line so hold on to your CI tight because your gonna get cut out with it.:laughing:
> 
> Look people I know cast has its place but if its not a high rise or industrial building , bet your azz its PVC ,, around here anyway.


 Well, since you took the liberty.....

Listen wiseass, know your facts before you open your mouth, this way you won't look like such an idiot. 

I have installed maybe 60' of C.I. in my 10 year career. Interior stacks in new houses you could never dream of working in. Architect insisted upon it due to noise issues. (you do know who the architect is, don't you? He is the guy on the job in the suit.)

I never said, or insinuated that I used CI, or was more professional, or was on a high horse. I use PVC, exclusively, and foam core at that. I am proud of it. (You do know that foam core is quieter, because of the foam core?) And, at 38, I am not an old timer. (Am I?) As far as running circles, :laughing: 

Now why don't you go out and play with your guns in the woods.


----------



## Christina

RealLivePlumber said:


> Ain't no homeowner gonna run on down to the depot on a Sunday morning and pick up a 4" cast iron combo to tie in his new illegal basement bathroom, now is there?










:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Well no, Home Depot is going to sell them something more like this... and this is suppose to be better than what PVC they could sale them? "I think" on your everyday residential that PVC is just fine IMHO.
(By the way the smilies are from not knowing whether to laugh or cry when I stumble across this) By plumbing a house in cast iron, it does not guarantee that Home Depot or Blowe's can-not make a sale!


----------



## ILPlumber

RealLivePlumber said:


> (You do know that foam core is quieter, because of the foam core?)


Here is some reading to support your statement and educate on foam core pipe. Enjoy.


The foam, created by a blowing agent (azobiscarbonamide),
replaces virgin PVC compound in the core, or middle layer, of
the pipe. Depending upon the extrusion set up, the primary
machine(s) feeds PVC compound into a feed or Y block, which
separates the PVC melt into two streams. A second extruder
feeds the foamed PVC compound into the same block through
a channel between what will become the inner and outer layer
(skin). The three layer structure is then brought together in the
die.
Because the foam core pipe wall thickness is the same as a solid
wall PVC pipe, a manufacturer produces substantially more
product from the same amount of PVC resin. On four inch pipe
running up to 1,200 lbs./hr.*, a foam core line can produce
800-1,000 lineal feet of pipe versus 600 lineal ft. of solid PVC
pipe at an equal output rate. Since the foam layer is 18 to 40%
lower density than solid PVC, weight savings for foam core PVC
pipe range from 10 to 35% lower than equal length and size of
solid wall PVC pipe.
Foam Processing Systems
Presently three processes are commercially available for production
of foam core pipe. There are two systems which use two extruders.
One developed by Alphacan and is known as the Bipeau process,
while the second is manufactured and marketed by American
Maplan. The third system uses three extruders and the Genca
die.
Figure 1 is a diagram of the Bipeau extruder configuration. The
Bipeau (two skin) process was developed by Alphacan, a subsidiary
of Atochem S.A. The Bipeau system is fed by two extruders
connected to a Y block die. The foam core extruder can be
smaller than the skin extruder. The Bipeau Y block, as seen in
Figure 2,divides the solid skin melt into two streams, which
cover the foam melt from the second extruder. The extruders are
at right angles to the feed, as seen in Figure 1. The process
required two dies - one for pipe diameters below 4” and one for
pipe diameters above 4”. Recent improvements by Alphacan
have minimized the need for separate tooling. The largest pipe
currently made by this process is 12”. Plans are underway to
increase this to 15” - 18” shortly.
When first introduced, the Bipeau system gave a weight savings
of 25% over solid wall PVC pipe. It also claimed output increases
of 20%. These claims have been verified by several manufacturers
using the Bipeau system. Plans are underway to further decrease
weight and increase output.
The American Maplan system generally uses two equal size
extruders with their foam core die assembly. This assembly
requires additional floor space versus the Bipeau system.
However, a smaller version of their system is equivalent in floor
space compared to the Bipeau system. This particular system
uses a Cincinnati Milacron 62 mm. twin screw extruder to
Foam Core PVC Pipe
Presented at SPE Vinyl RETEC 91 * Normal rates average 1,050 to 1,100 lbs./hr.
provide the skin. The coextrusion block design differs from
that of the Bipeau system, specifically in internal construction.
The angle of entry into the Y block for Maplan’s triple wall
tooling (Figure 3) is an acute angle. This system is patented for
American Maplan. Maplan claims comparable weight savings
and output versus the Bipeau system.
The three extruder system is offered by Kraus Maffei and
Battenfeld Extrusions Technik with Genca tooling. This system
(Figure 4) combines three extruders, each independently
producing a separate layer, eliminating the need for the feedback
flow divider. The key to this system is the die, made by
Genca, a division of General Cable Co. The die has three flow
channels that separate the melt streams and does not require
spider supports.
Analysis of the Processes
The Bipeau and Maplan systems are similar in design and
weight savings, and are considered simple to operate. Since the
melt forming the inner and outer skin comes from the same
extruder, it is the same melt temperature, ensuring that the
viscosity of the extrudate is the same. In the three extruder
system, opponents claim there is less control of the melts,
while proponents claim better melt control and improved
weld line strength between the layers, which yields a stronger
product. A distinct disadvantage of Genca tooling is its inability
to process tin stabilized PVC foam compounds. The use of tin
stabilized PVC compounds has resulted in unacceptable
production, as the tin compounds cause severe corrosion of
the flow channels of the die. This limits the foam compounds
to non-tin stabilized formulations.
Another distinct difference between the three systems is the
amount of floor space required for each. The Bipeau system
requires approximately 250 square feet. The Maplan system
could require up to 450 square feet, depending on the size of
the extruders, feedblock and die package. Surprisingly, the three
extruder system takes up the least floor space - 200 square
feet. This compact set-up is accomplished by positioning the
third extruder along the sizing tank (Figure 4). Neither system
requires anything special in the way of downstream equipment.
Depending on the size of the foam core PVC pipe produced,
longer water tanks may be necessary, since the foam core is an
insulator, and is harder to cool than solid PVC.
An advantage to the Bipeau system is that the choice of the
size and manufacturer of the extruders used with the Bipeau
die is left to the customer. Aplacan’s system is patented, and
processors using this technology must pay a licensing fee and
a royalty based on a percentage of sales. The Maplan system
does not require any fees, but requires that American Maplan
equipment is purchased. Details of the Genca system were not
available. Table 1 summarrizes the costs of the Bipeau and
Maplan systems.
Advantages of Foam Core
The cellular structure of the core PVC layer is the key to producing
foam core PVC pipe of quality. To develop maximum
savings and physical properties, the core must have uniform
cell structure. A feature of foam core pipe is the unique “I-Beam”
structure it assumes. The skin is designed to take the initial
load, while the foam gives rigidity and maintains the shape of
the pipe under load. This is demonstrated in Figure 5. The pipe
on the left is typical of solid wall PVC under load and the type
of distortion normally expected. The foam core pipe on the
right, under equal load, distributes the load more evenly and
does not show the same amount of distortion. This is due to
the “I-Beam” structure of the cellular PVC pipe.
Aside from the weight advantage, it is believed that the foam pipe
has a flex life up to ten years longer than conventional PVC
pipe. The foam core’s insulating properties act to reduce noise,
which would be beneficial in large buildings. The insulating
foam core may aslo increase the pipe’s service temperature
range.Taking the differences between foam core PVC pipe and
solid wall PVC into account, producers agree that foam core
pipe is a better product than solid wall PVC pipe.
Standards


----------



## GREENPLUM

RealLivePlumber said:


> Well, since you took the liberty.....
> 
> Listen wiseass, know your facts before you open your mouth, this way you won't look like such an idiot.wouldnt be the first time
> 
> I have installed maybe 60' of C.I. in my 10 year career. Interior stacks in new houses you could never dream of working in.i can dream, cant i  Architect insisted upon it due to noise issues. (you do know who the architect is, don't you? He is the guy on the job in the suit.)
> 
> I never said, or insinuated that I used CI, or was more professional,ya you did post 111 or was on a high horse. I use PVC, exclusively, and foam core at that. I am proud of it. (You do know that foam core is quieter, because of the foam core?) And, at 38, I am not an old timer. (Am I?) As far as running circles, :laughing:
> 
> Now why don't you go out and play with your guns in the woods.


That was more of a general comment , not totally directed to you, I figured you would pick up on that. Sorry you took it so personal. :thumbsup:


----------



## TheMaster

I dont care what the producers think....i bet they do when they can make more product. I'm in the real world and in the real world solid core is better. noise can be dealt with in other ways if you know anything about how sound travels.


----------



## Christina

ilplumber said:


> Since The foam Layer Is 18 To 40%
> lower Density Than Solid Pvc, weight Savings For Foam Core Pvc
> pipe Range From 10 To 35% Lower Than Equal Length And Size Of
> solid Wall Pvc Pipe.
> 
> When First Introduced, The Bipeau System Gave A weight Savings
> of 25% Over Solid Wall Pvc Pipe. It Also Claimed output Increases
> of 20%. These Claims Have Been Verified By Several Manufacturers
> Using The Bipeau System. plans Are Underway To Further Decrease
> weight And Increase Output.
> 
> A Feature Of Foam Core Pipe Is The Unique “i-beam”
> Structure It Assumes. the Skin Is Designed To Take The Initial
> load, While The Foam Gives Rigidity And Maintains The Shape Of
> the Pipe Under Load. Aside From The Weight Advantage, It Is Believed That The foam Pipe Has A Flex Life Up To Ten Years Longer Than Conventional Pvc
> pipe. The Foam Core’s insulating Properties Act To Reduce Noise,
> Which Would Be Beneficial In Large Buildings. The Insulating
> Foam Core may Aslo Increase The Pipe’s Service Temperature
> range. Taking The Differences Between Foam Core Pvc Pipe And
> Solid Wall Pvc Into Account, Producers Agree That Foam Core
> pipe Is A Better Product Than Solid Wall Pvc Pipe.


 thank You Il!!


----------



## TheMaster

If its so strong why cant you use it for pressure. Think about it and you'll eventually get it.


----------



## ILPlumber

TheMaster said:


> If its so strong why cant you use it for pressure. Think about it and you'll eventually get it.


 
If you were careful on installation the pipe could be used for supply AND return in a pressurized system. Think about it....


----------



## TheMaster

Charlotte pipe strongly cautions the use of foamcore pipe in commercial applications. Its not as strong. Go download charlotte pipes plastic pipe handbook and fip to page 108 and have a read.


----------



## ILPlumber

TheMaster said:


> Charlotte pipe strongly cautions the use of foamcore pipe in commercial applications. Its not as strong. Go download charlotte pipes plastic pipe handbook and fip to page 108 and have a read.


Cut and paste TM. I'm too lazy to google.


----------



## Christina

ILPlumber said:


> Cut and paste TM. I'm too lazy to google.


Yes, and please hurry, I am watching the information pile in... :whistling2:


----------



## LEAD INGOT

anyone ever stick a 3" wafer cap on the inside of 3" cell core, as compared to solid. I have had to hammer it into the cellcore. Always goes right into the solid. My theory is that cellcore is weaker and when in high pallet storage the lower bunks that have the most weight on them tend to oval a littleunder the weight.


----------



## Tieger plumbing

ILPlumber said:


> That is opinion. Not BS.
> 
> You made a completely useless post.


Not useless shows the mind set

The unskilled /under trained when confronted with facts have to utter BS rather then give any facts, this is why home centers are thriving with DIY folks as anyone who wants a cheap high will swear by plastic.
Even Charlotte pipe suggests CI for a professional job.. Most of the butcher plastic jobs I have seen used band iron on plastic.

There claim to fame is plastic is fast and easty to work with but never ask them how to recycle it :thumbsup:


----------



## TheMaster

Tieger plumbing said:


> Not useless shows the mind set
> 
> The unskilled /under trained when confronted with facts have to utter BS rather then give any facts, this is why home centers are thriving with DIY folks as anyone who wants a cheap high will swear by plastic.
> Even Charlotte pipe suggests CI for a professional job.. Most of the butcher plastic jobs I have seen used band iron on plastic.
> 
> There claim to fame is plastic is fast and easty to work with but never ask them how to recycle it :thumbsup:


Pvc requires angles to be more precise than hub cast iron if its installed properly. Thats a fact. Now whos a bullshitter.
Recycled pvc is called re-grind and its being done.


----------



## ILPlumber

TheMaster said:


> Pvc requires angles to be more precise than hub cast iron if its installed properly. Thats a fact. Now whos a bullshitter.
> Recycled pvc is called re-grind and its being done.


 
If installed properly. All the angles are perfect, No?

I know of nowhere in my area that recycles PVC pipe.


----------



## Christina

ILPlumber said:


> If installed properly. All the angles are perfect, No?
> 
> I know of nowhere in my area that recycles PVC pipe.


Found this... I didn't know of this either...
http://earth911.com/plastic/pvc/tips-on-recycling-pvc/


----------



## RealLivePlumber

GREENPLUM said:


> That was more of a general comment , not totally directed to you, I figured you would pick up on that. Sorry you took it so personal. :thumbsup:


 Sorry then. I guess I did take it kind of personal. I interpreted it as being directed at me. Everyone is entitled to thier opinion, and that is what makes this forum so great. 

I hope you will accept my sincere apology.


----------



## user4

ILPlumber said:


> If installed properly. All the angles are perfect, No?
> 
> I know of nowhere in my area that recycles PVC pipe.


The Plastic Recycling Alliance has a large facility near me, they do everything from pop bottles to old underground plastic tanks, provided the tanks were not used for chemicals.


----------



## TheMaster

ILPlumber said:


> If installed properly. All the angles are perfect, No?
> 
> I know of nowhere in my area that recycles PVC pipe.


 Cast iron hub allows a 5 degree deflection angle. In other words you can cheat the angle because you didn't get it RIGHT...thats not allowed with PVC. So which one takes more skill to install?


----------



## user4

TheMaster said:


> Cast iron hub allows a 5 degree deflection angle. In other words you can cheat the angle because you didn't get it RIGHT...thats not allowed with PVC. So which one takes more skill to install?


Cast iron.


----------



## TheMaster

Killertoiletspider said:


> Cast iron.


 Your confusing TIME and MUSCLE with skill.


----------



## user4

TheMaster said:


> Your confusing TIME and MUSCLE with skill.



No, I'm going by experience, whenever I would hire someone that was not out of Chicago's local chances were that if they couldn't glue it, they couldn't do it when it came to installing stacks and horizontal building drains.


----------



## ILPlumber

TheMaster said:


> Cast iron hub allows a 5 degree deflection angle. In other words you can cheat the angle because you didn't get it RIGHT...thats not allowed with PVC. So which one takes more skill to install?


That dog don't hunt TM, and you know it. 

Great attempt at prolonging the argument though.


----------



## TheMaster

Killertoiletspider said:


> No, I'm going by experience, whenever I would hire someone that was not out of Chicago's local chances were that if they couldn't glue it, they couldn't do it when it came to installing stacks and horizontal building drains.


Just because a guy hasn't worked with cast iron doesn't mean it takes more skill to install. It only means he's ignorant to how but more lilely they knew how and "DIDN'T WANT TO" if they were in the union. Whats so glamorous about packing and pouring a joint..Hows that skillful? Its muscle memory is all it is.


----------



## TheMaster

ILPlumber said:


> That dog don't hunt TM, and you know it.
> 
> Great attempt at prolonging the argument though.


Is that B.S or do you have any facts?


----------



## ILPlumber

When all else fails, slam the union. 

I guess it has nothing to do with thinking ahead?

What fittings need to be where? With C.I., you better be thinking ahead about 6 fittings. With PVC it more like 2. 

All muscle memory :laughing:


----------



## Protech

Could you please explain what they found so hard about working with CI (other than the sore back)?



Killertoiletspider said:


> No, I'm going by experience, whenever I would hire someone that was not out of Chicago's local chances were that if they couldn't glue it, they couldn't do it when it came to installing stacks and horizontal building drains.


----------



## ILPlumber

Alot of guys are not capable of thinking that far ahead Protech. Sad but true.

They end up screwing themselves as they work down through a branch drain header. I have prevented this from happening numerous times in my lifetime.


----------



## TheMaster

ILPlumber said:


> When all else fails, slam the union.
> 
> I guess it has nothing to do with thinking ahead?
> 
> What fittings need to be where? With C.I., you better be thinking ahead about 6 fittings. With PVC it more like 2.
> 
> All muscle memory :laughing:


WTF??? Please explain why 6 ahead with cast and 2 ahead with plastic and if you have buleprints why the fk would you need to think ahead when you already know whats going in before you start:laughing: Yeah and when all else fails blame union guys for only knowing how to work with plastic like the ones killertoiletspider gets from his local.


----------



## ILPlumber

When you are jacking around with a bunch of long fittings space can get VERY tight. A drain you need in the middle of the main may have to wye off way back the line due to the fact the fittings just don't fit.

Most of the time , adequate venting is not on the blueprints.


----------



## user4

Protech said:


> Could you please explain what they found so hard about working with CI (other than the sore back)?


They didn't know how to cut it, they didn't know how to measure for it, they didn't know where to install the hangers for it, they didn't know how to use a running rope or pour a lead joint without creating a mess on the floor, and taking an hour to make the mess, they didn't know what tools to use or how to use them when it came to yarning a joint, and they whined about the pipe being heavy, similar to the way you southern boys do.


----------



## TheMaster

ILPlumber said:


> When you are jacking around with a bunch of long fittings space can get VERY tight. A drain you need in the middle of the main may have to wye off way back the line due to the fact the fittings just don't fit.


 Dont start complaining about the very pipe and fittings your defending. So your saying snce the fittings are long it takes more skill to install. OK I think I might add that to the bottom of my posts.


----------



## TheMaster

Killertoiletspider said:


> They didn't know how to cut it, they didn't know how to measure for it, they didn't know where to install the hangers for it, they didn't know how to use a running rope or pour a lead joint without creating a mess on the floor, and taking an hour to make the mess, they didn't know what tools to use or how to use them when it came to yarning a joint, and they whined about the pipe being heavy, similar to the way you southern boys do.


 All thats just poor union training. Now you know why the good plumbers are not union here and the ones coming north are the ones we dont want. Ever consider that?


----------



## service guy

Wait, what were we talking about again?


----------



## user4

TheMaster said:


> All thats just poor union training. Now you know why the good plumbers are not union here and the ones coming north are the ones we dont want. Ever consider that?


No, because it isn't true, it is you trying to pigeonhole unions, one of the best plumbers I ever worked with was a traveler from Louisiana.


----------



## TheMaster

Killertoiletspider said:


> They didn't know how to cut it, they didn't know how to measure for it, they didn't know where to install the hangers for it, they didn't know how to use a running rope or pour a lead joint without creating a mess on the floor, and taking an hour to make the mess, they didn't know what tools to use or how to use them when it came to yarning a joint, and they whined about the pipe being heavy, similar to the way you southern boys do.





Killertoiletspider said:


> No, because it isn't true, it is you trying to pigeonhole unions, one of the best plumbers I ever worked with was a traveler from Louisiana.


 Scroll back up and see who brought the union into this. the fact is that a cast joint can be CHEATED 5 degrees and a pvc joint cannot. That tell you right there you better get the angle right with pvc....with cast iron they know the best the union can do is CLOSE hence the 5 degree retard factor they build into the stuff.


----------



## SlickRick

The only way this could get any better is if wax gaskets were involved..:thumbup:


----------



## TheMaster

Now why was NO hub developed again? Was it the lack of skilled packers and lead pots?


----------



## user4

TheMaster said:


> Now why was NO hub developed again? Was it the lack of skilled packers and lead pots?


It was developed to eliminate the hub and therefore allow for smaller plumbing walls.


----------



## ILPlumber

TheMaster said:


> Now why was NO hub developed again? Was it the lack of skilled packers and lead pots?


Yes. :laughing: If that makes the argument end.


----------



## ILPlumber

Killertoiletspider said:


> It was developed to eliminate the hub and therefore allow for smaller plumbing walls.


KTS, 
Let's not let facts hinder this conversation.:laughing:


----------



## RealLivePlumber

slickrick said:


> The only way this could get any better is if wax gaskets were involved..:thumbup:


Sharkbite????.................................shhh.:thumbup1:


----------



## TheMaster

:laughing:Yeah it takes alot of skill to cut that cast iron pipe and alot of skill to heat lead up and even more skill to pour it without getting burned then you even hafta use a hammer...one of the hardest tools to use in the world.:whistling2:


----------



## Phat Cat

Boys will be boys :laughing:


----------



## TheMaster

No-hub takes more skill to install than hub. But its too easy right? No skill involved.


----------



## user4

TheMaster said:


> No-hub takes more skill to install than hub. But its too easy right? No skill involved.


No Hub takes more work, not more skill, given the labor involved with installing twice as many hangers as you need with hub and spigot the main advantage to it is that you don't have to worry about knowing how to install hub and spigot correctly, except the crooked cuts on the pipe have to be a bit more minimized.


----------



## TheMaster

Killertoiletspider said:


> No Hub takes more work, not more skill, given the labor involved with installing twice as many hangers as you need with hub and spigot the main advantage to it is that you don't have to worry about knowing how to install hub and spigot correctly, except the crooked cuts on the pipe have to be a bit more minimized.


 Why do you ignore the fact that no hub jonts can be cheated and are all the time because the angles not correct,making it EASY to install without being exact? Thats not skill.


----------



## ILPlumber

My ex-wife always had to have the last word. God rest her soul.:laughing:


----------



## TheMaster

ILPlumber said:


> When you are jacking around with a bunch of long fittings space can get VERY tight. A drain you need in the middle of the main may have to wye off way back the line due to the fact the fittings just don't fit.
> 
> Most of the time , adequate venting is not on the blueprints.





TheMaster said:


> Now why was NO hub developed again? Was it the lack of skilled packers and lead pots?





Killertoiletspider said:


> It was developed to eliminate the hub and therefore allow for smaller plumbing walls.





ILPlumber said:


> KTS,
> Let's not let facts hinder this conversation.:laughing:


NOW FOR THE FACTS 
The shielded no-hub coupling for cast iron soil pipe and fittings is a plumbing concept that provides
a more compact arrangement without sacrificing the quality and permanence of cast iron. The design,
depicted in Figure 1 (a), typically uses a one-piece neoprene gasket with a shield and stainless steel​retaining clamps. The great advantage of the system is that it permits joints to be made in limited access areas.


----------



## user4

TheMaster said:


> Why do you ignore the fact that no hub jonts can be cheated and are all the time because the angles not correct,making it EASY to install without being exact? Thats not skill.


You can cheat anything if you have the skills, I can cut cut a crooked thread on galvanized pipe if I need to cheat it, but it takes skill to know how to cut a crooked thread. I can cheat PVC to hang next to out of plumb walls and match the wall as opposed to being straight, because it looks better when it doesn't match the crooked wall, it takes skill to do that.

I can train a monkey to glue joints and assemble them.


----------



## Christina

Killertoiletspider said:


> You can cheat anything if you have the skills, I can cut cut a crooked thread on galvanized pipe if I need to cheat it, but it takes skill to know how to cut a crooked thread. I can cheat PVC to hang next to out of plumb walls and match the wall as opposed to being straight, because it looks better when it doesn't match the crooked wall, it takes skill to do that.
> 
> I can train a monkey to glue joints and assemble them.











No Monkey'n Around in Here!


----------



## Tieger plumbing

TheMaster said:


> Pvc requires angles to be more precise than hub cast iron if its installed properly. Thats a fact. Now whos a bullshitter.
> Recycled pvc is called re-grind and its being done.


What are you talking about a 45 degree offset (1.4142) or a rolling offset doesnt care what the materials are ....

What kind of apprenticeship did you attend?

Did you ever bother to read the MSDS re primmer or glue?

Do you know what NIOSH /OSHA / ASTM /ASSE stand for? Come talk about proven longevity not nonsense about angles 

Speaking of angles where do you have these in plastic?

1/32 bend

1/16 bend

1/8 bend 

1/4 bend 

short sweep /long sweep


----------



## Tieger plumbing

TheMaster said:


> Now why was NO hub developed again? Was it the lack of skilled packers and lead pots?


No hub was developed because of cost as the use of extra heavy uncoated cast iron bell and spigot was the the way most civilized codes required.
Over time the skill level dropped considerably as very few people wanted to attend a 5 year (10,000, hour) apprenticeship with 744 hours of class room studies.
No hub allowed joints to be accomplished in all weather conditions with out the fear of some semi skilled person cracking a hub because of using to heavy a hand when caulking, packing and trimming a joint or not preheating the hub prior to pouring molten lead below freezing weather (thermo cracking)
Making repairs or cutting in a fitting with bell and spigot required great skills as a a ****** fitting was illegal and no hub made cutting in a fitting no big deal.
The NFPA had placed a lot of restriction on toxic plastic especially below grade applications and then OSHA /NIOSH frowned upon the use of lead fumes in confined spaces.
Today I still use the lead pot and oakum and hub roof drains rather then no hub when possible. 
My reasons are

1- I do not have to inconvenience the tenants in a commercial high rise by opening their ceiling as all work can be performed on the roof

2- A lead /cast iron drain is impervious to sun rays which destroys plastics

3- Bird droppings can be quite acidic and lead resists most acids including acid rain from soot.

4- The coefficient of expansion per degree of cast / lead will not be as great as other materials thus the water proofing remains in tact and the CI resists cracking from bearing loads from ice build up.


Think about this a guy comes to a job with a can of glue and primmer and installs a plastic drain and leaves 

Now another mechanic arrives removes the old drain installs a caused drain with 4 PSF sheet lead flashed it in and charges $1,800 Do you honestly believe a guy with a plastic degree can demand professional rates as a skilled artist?

The same with lead wiping

I had a job a few months ago in an embassy where the ceilings were all inlaid wood and the floors were marble and inside an access door the waste piping was visible and the leak was a lead trap.

To lead wipe this trap one could ask for $2,000 or let someone else come in and destroy the 1900 wood work and tear up a floor trying to replace the lead piping.

Some skills are a gold mine and placing two pieces of plastic together is not one the highly rated skills in plumbing.:thumbsup:


----------



## Tieger plumbing

Killertoiletspider said:


> You can cheat anything if you have the skills, I can cut cut a crooked thread on galvanized pipe if I need to cheat it, but it takes skill to know how to cut a crooked thread. I can cheat PVC to hang next to out of plumb walls and match the wall as opposed to being straight, because it looks better when it doesn't match the crooked wall, it takes skill to do that.
> 
> I can train a monkey to glue joints and assemble them.


Oh my crooked threads takes me way back to my apprenticeship days when installing galvanized waste and then steam return lines when we needed more pitch.

Bless the 65R ..

How about reversing the dies to thread a pipe in a slab then you cannot fit a standard stock and die over it .

Nipple chuck anyone.. Running threads :whistling2:


----------



## TheMaster

Tieger plumbing said:


> What are you talking about a 45 degree offset (1.4142) or a rolling offset doesnt care what the materials are What kind of apprenticeship did you attend?
> 
> Did you ever bother to read the MSDA re primmer or glue?
> 
> Do you know what NIOSH /OSHA / ASTM /ASSE stand for? Come talk about proven longevity not nonsense about angles
> 
> Speaking of angles where do you have these in plastic?
> 
> 1/32 bend
> 
> 1/16 bend
> 
> 1/8 bend
> 
> 1/4 bend
> 
> short sweep /long sweep


 If you knew as much about cast iron as you put on you would know what I'm talking about. Look it up I'm not your teacher. All the info is in this thread that you need to undersstand...if you dont understand or cant find it then thats your loss and its not responsibility to educate you.


----------



## user2091

:blink:


Killertoiletspider said:


> You can cheat anything if you have the skills, I can cut cut a crooked thread on galvanized pipe if I need to cheat it, but it takes skill to know how to cut a crooked thread. I can cheat PVC to hang next to out of plumb walls and match the wall as opposed to being straight, because it looks better when it doesn't match the crooked wall, it takes skill to do that.
> 
> I can train a monkey to glue joints and assemble them.


 try working on your math skills usually it's a lot easier that way! no need to train monkeys we have enough illegals in this country trying to do the same. leave the monkeys alone sorry they are smarter then your help!


----------



## Christina

TheMaster said:


> If you knew as much about cast iron as you put on you would know what I'm talking about. Look it up I'm not your teacher. All the info is in this thread that you need to undersstand...if you dont understand or cant find it then thats your loss and its not responsibility to educate you.


Hey Tieger Plbg...
_Competency is another issue for most ENTJs: they want to deal only with those they perceive as competent and knowledgeable._

_ENTJs frequently like people who get straight to the point, and can back up their claims with facts._

_You can expect most ENTJs to challenge and freely criticize your statements._

_Anything that remotely appears illogical will not sway ENTJs._

_Avoid redundancy._

_If your plans are unclear or lack structure, most ENTJs will ignore them._

_Overloading an ENTJ with useless facts, minutiae, and hearsay will also make them impatient, and they will ignore that information._

:whistling2:_ I'M JUST SAYIN'!..._


----------



## ILPlumber

Christina said:


> Hey Tieger Plbg...
> _Competency is another issue for most ENTJs: they want to deal only with those they perceive as competent and knowledgeable._
> 
> _ENTJs frequently like people who get straight to the point, and can back up their claims with facts._
> 
> _You can expect most ENTJs to challenge and freely criticize your statements._
> 
> _Anything that remotely appears illogical will not sway ENTJs._
> 
> _Avoid redundancy._
> 
> _If your plans are unclear or lack structure, most ENTJs will ignore them._
> 
> _Overloading an ENTJ with useless facts, minutiae, and hearsay will also make them impatient, and they will ignore that information._
> 
> :whistling2:_ I'M JUST SAYIN'!..._


Christina, 
That was funny as heck.

TM, 
Tieger has more plumbing knowledge in his muscle memory worn pinkie fingers than you ever will. Don't you get tired of googling the living **** out of a subject when arguing. Go do something productive.

All this is in my humble opinion.


----------



## TheMaster

ILPlumber said:


> Christina,
> That was funny as heck.
> 
> TM,
> Tieger has more plumbing knowledge in his muscle memory worn pinkie fingers than you ever will. Don't you get tired of googling the living **** out of a subject when arguing. Go do something productive.
> 
> All this is in my humble opinion.


 Dont you get tired of being proved wrong all the time by a small time hack?


----------



## ILPlumber

TheMaster said:


> Dont you get tired of a small time hack?


All the time:laughing:


----------



## TheMaster

You play too dirty for me.:laughing:...I might end up on a billboard in chicoland if I keep talking. Wanted...Dead or alive...MOB hit.


----------



## ILPlumber

Reinhard said:


> Cast Iron should be banned from plumbing. Does anyone else agree with this statement? In my experience using cast or even replacing it, it is always corroded and full of everything you can think of sticking inside the pipe. Now I see no problem using it in venting in an open return system, you have to for fire codes. Venting will not hold materials like a drain will. I really think PVC or ABS should be the only thing allowed in waste lines. I even have my doubts about ABS. But that is better then cast.


 
Here is what we are talking about in this thread. Remember.


----------



## Christina

OFF TOPIC HERE... YOU GUYS ARE MAKING THIS WOMAN DANG NEAR PEE HER PANTS FROM LAUGHING SO HARD!! PLEASE STOP, I AM GETTING GUT CRAMPS FROM ROLLING ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING MY  OFF.

But I have to say guys. I am not familiar with installing cast iron, I know that everytime I have ran on to it... It has been a problem. Dealing with some in the new portion of the hospital right now that is  and the fittings are  too. I have some other choice words for the men who put it in- but I will not bash union too bad being that my dad was union until he took over the family business and my grandad went back to work for the union for retirement and all after he quit the business... but anyways. I can see having to use it where it has apt to being ran over (driveway, whatever) or in your larger industrial or commercial applications- but in residential installation?

And I don't remember who said it about CI being more professional because no Lowe's guy could sell him that CI tee on Sunday... 
:whistling2: I have worked at a supply house and you won't believe what people will buy to avoid calling a plumber.

I was in the middle of replying when this was still in the CAST IRON THREAD!! I get done and it's not where I want it... CAN YOU PLEASE PUT ME IN CI?


----------



## Bill

There you go Chris!


----------



## user4

Christina said:


> But I have to say guys. I am not familiar with installing cast iron, I know that everytime I have ran on to it... It has been a problem.


What is the problem you run into?


----------



## Bill

No gone. I dont mind it, as a matter of fact a lot of high end jobs the HO wants cast because its quieter than plastic.

For me, CI= more $!!


----------



## Christina

Reinhard said:


> *Cast Iron should be banned from* *plumbing.* *Does anyone else agree with this statement?* In my experience using cast or even replacing it, it is always corroded and full of _everything you can think of sticking inside the pipe_. Now I see no problem using it in venting in an open return system, you have to for fire codes. Venting will not hold materials like a drain will.* I really think PVC* or ABS *should be the only thing allowed in waste lines.* I even have my doubts about ABS. But that is better then cast.





Killertoiletspider said:


> What is the problem you run into?


Have been called out to a new section of the hospital that is ran in cast-iron. Now, I know, this is suppose to be CI do to strength, sounds, acids, fire codes, whatever... but I know for a fact that PVC is allowed elsewhere in the hospital so why not here? It is not a surgical area, it is the top floor, it is an area where there are mainly just elderly. These patients are sometimes forgetful... hmmm... they flush paper towels, football size toilet paper, wipies... etc. So, with the abrasiveness of the CI guess what? Regular cleaning. Well here is another problem that we have came across.

Was called out for 2 rooms (plumbed in pairs) that were stopped up. We ran the small cable (3/8") in the floor drain of one... came up in the lav vent of the other. Ran the small cable in the shower drain of one... came up in the shower drain of the other. Was able to get my arm in the 5" (DID I SAY 5") access panel and remove the rubber cap from behind the wall hung commode... came up into the other commode. Tried all this from the other restroom going back toward the first one... same dang thing. Finally, had to go down a floor (unfinished, thankfully) and pull a plug to clear the line. So, what am I suppose to do when this floor gets finished and the drop ceilings are installed? Don't worry, not a one time freak thing... we have been called for the same problem 3 times now. The Wye-Cross type fittings that these "plumbers :laughing:" have put in seem to not have enough angle to force my cable down the line. The cable jumps across EVERYTIME!! The last call we got on this floor of the hospital was again on a cast iron line and all retrieved was papertowels, toilet paper, wipies. This was the main line leaving this floor.
The pipe is too abrasive causing _everything you can think of sticking inside the pipe._ *I really think PVC **should be the only thing allowed in these types of waste lines.*

I hope I explained that all OK- if not I am sure you will ask more question... But, this is only my personal oppinion!


----------



## user4

Christina said:


> Have been called out to a new section of the hospital that is ran in cast-iron. Now, I know, this is suppose to be CI do to strength, sounds, acids, fire codes, whatever... but I know for a fact that PVC is allowed elsewhere in the hospital so why not here? It is not a surgical area, it is the top floor, it is an area where there are mainly just elderly. These patients are sometimes forgetful... hmmm... they flush paper towels, football size toilet paper, wipies... etc. So, with the abrasiveness of the CI guess what? Regular cleaning. Well here is another problem that we have came across.
> 
> Was called out for 2 rooms (plumbed in pairs) that were stopped up. We ran the small cable (3/8") in the floor drain of one... came up in the lav vent of the other. Ran the small cable in the shower drain of one... came up in the shower drain of the other. Was able to get my arm in the 5" (DID I SAY 5") access panel and remove the rubber cap from behind the wall hung commode... came up into the other commode. Tried all this from the other restroom going back toward the first one... same dang thing. Finally, had to go down a floor (unfinished, thankfully) and pull a plug to clear the line. So, what am I suppose to do when this floor gets finished and the drop ceilings are installed? Don't worry, not a one time freak thing... we have been called for the same problem 3 times now. The Wye-Cross type fittings that these "plumbers :laughing:" have put in seem to not have enough angle to force my cable down the line. The cable jumps across EVERYTIME!! The last call we got on this floor of the hospital was again on a cast iron line and all retrieved was papertowels, toilet paper, wipies. This was the main line leaving this floor.
> The pipe is too abrasive causing _everything you can think of sticking inside the pipe._ *I really think PVC **should be the only thing allowed in these types of waste lines.*
> 
> I hope I explained that all OK- if not I am sure you will ask more question... But, this is only my personal oppinion!


The fittings used are not designed to direct your cable, they are designed to cause no impedance to solids. they are true cross fittings. Somewhere the hospital has a set of as built drawings, find them, from them you will be able to pick the spot to clear the drains from, a cast iron stack fitting can have over a dozen different inlet configurations, but it has only one outlet.


----------



## Christina

Killertoiletspider said:


> The fittings used are not designed to direct your cable, they are designed to cause no impedance to solids. they are true cross fittings. *Somewhere the hospital has a set of as built drawings, find them*, from them you will be able to pick the spot to clear the drains from, a cast iron stack fitting can have over a dozen different inlet configurations, but it has only one outlet.


When the cast iron at the one outlet that all of the sets of restrooms is tied into is stopped up and there is not a proper cleanout installed. At this point, I would look more toward the architect or the installer. I am a repair plumber. Being stuck with figuring out how to clear lines that dim-wit monkeys have installed without considering the fact that 
" !something may get stuck in there and I will be long gone." 
*SO...*
In controdiction with your above statement of they are not designed to direct my cable, but they are designed to cause no impedance to solids, listen to yourself. I told you the solids and paper are getting hung on the  (hence the reason I was called in the first place), so therefore *you are telling me that the cast iron and its fittings are good for NOTHING*! If it were waste water with no solids or paper in it... I am sure it would drain all day... but that is not this application. Again, in this area of the hospital it is mainly elderly... have you ever dealt with elderly? Try telling them to not flush toilet paper... or regulate how much they use...

If I need help in locating the drains and the cleanouts, which I don't being they are plainly in sight (by the way I mentioned that when I told you that the drop ceilings were not yet installed in the lower floor) I will contact the head of maintenance and ask for their "liar's map". Otherwise, I think that the proper decision was made by contacting the head of engineering when the lack of cleanouts for that floor level was pointed out to him. Which, by the way all involved agreed and proper cleanouts are being installed.

This thread was started with the question of...
*Cast Iron should be banned from plumbing. *
*Does anyone else agree with this statement?*

*NO! *
YOU HAVE TO LEAVE SOMETHING FOR THE 
MONKEY TO ENTERTAIN HIMSELF WITH!

And as for your statement...* Somewhere the hospital has a set of as built drawings, find them... *I did not ask you how to do my job or deal with this problem. The problem has been clearly fixed. You asked me what the problem was that I ran into after I said that I thought 
"The pipe is too abrasive causing _everything you can think of sticking inside the pipe._ *I really think PVC **should be the only thing allowed in these types of waste lines.*" You did not clarify that you wanted to plumb for me! Had I known that you were going to step up to the plate and tell me how to figure it out... I would have told you that you are a day late and a dollar short.


----------



## SewerRatz

Christina the problem is not the abrasiveness of the pipe. The problem is how it was installed. If you have a water closet at the beginning of the drainage system then a sink that ties in several feet away down stream there is nothing to wash the line clean.


There are 100000's of homes, hospitals, high rises, commercial and industrial buildings in the Chicago area that has Cast Iron and they all do not clog up on a regular basis. The buildings I have seen plug on a regular basis was poorly laid out drainage systems that would even clog if it was done in PVC.


----------



## Christina

SewerRatz said:


> Christina the problem is not the abrasiveness of the pipe. The problem is how it was installed. If you have a water closet at the beginning of the drainage system then a sink that ties in several feet away down stream there is nothing to wash the line clean.
> 
> 
> There are 100000's of homes, hospitals, high rises, commercial and industrial buildings in the Chicago area that has Cast Iron and they all do not clog up on a regular basis. The buildings I have seen plug on a regular basis was poorly laid out drainage systems that would even clog if it was done in PVC.


OK, SewerRatz, I will listen to your input on that and I will agree. I will also say that had the proper cleanouts been installed at the original time of construction it could have saved a lot of time. I will also make a statement that telling me to go located a built as map (like I am blind) was a personal stab at my intelligence and I did not appreciate it. Thank You, SewerRatz- for not trying to treat me as though I need a map when the lines are CLEARLY exposed!!


----------



## TheMaster

Christina said:


> OK, SewerRatz, I will listen to your input on that and I will agree. I will also say that had the proper cleanouts been installed at the original time of construction it could have saved a lot of time. I will also make a statement that telling me to go located a built as map (like I am blind) was a personal stab at my intelligence and I did not appreciate it. Thank You, SewerRatz- for not trying to treat me as though I need a map when the lines are CLEARLY exposed!!


 Well I will not agree...a water closet works just fine at the beginning of the line if you have good pipe installed correctly. Cast has met its final match with the use of low volume flush toilets. Pvc is clearly the best solution.


----------



## Christina

OK, so after I proof read it aloud it seems as though SR completely changed my mind. I should have said "OK, SewerRatz, I will listen to your input on that and I will agree that improper installation could be a contributing factor"


----------



## Tieger plumbing

*Oh my*



Reinhard said:


> it is junk
> 
> we have done many apartments, the only ones that have problems are the ones that had cast iron in the underground parking


Ever think that possibly the installer did not follow directions such as a clean fill below the piping and above the pipe and compacting the soil prior to allowing pavers over it and this under ground pipe was it imported crap or Extra heavy cast knowing that once it is installed it would be very difficult to maintain?

NYC has some cast iron sewers in Manhattan HEAVY traffic areas over 100 years old and no defects in material.


----------



## Tieger plumbing

Originally Posted by *Christina*  
_Have been called out to a new section of the hospital that is ran in cast-iron. Now, I know, this is suppose to be CI do to strength, sounds, acids, fire codes, whatever... but I know for a fact that PVC is allowed elsewhere in the hospital so why not here?_

_Acid????? Who ever said CI is used for acid??_

_Duriron / Pyrex / Plastics / Lead are used for acid waste, NEVER Cast iron for chemical /acid ._

_Acid will pit the cast iron and thus cause more stoppages and then some handyman will add more chemicals to clear the stoppage and cause more corrosion of the piping, catch 22 with inept people dabbling in fields will no formal training or have no clue to the virtues or short comings of each product._

_Plastic has many,many uses but in many cases for regular drainage in commercial and residential etc cast iron is quality installation._

_The better codes even state Acid / Chemicals SHALL BE Neutralized prior to entering the drainage system through an acid crock of other means ._

_If I am pouring acetone down a plastic piping system and saying plastics suxs as it got eaten away _


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## TheMaster

Thats why there is failure after failure with cast iron on kitchen sink drains that are 40 years old........dish detergent. Its acidic and is suppose to go down the drain. Pvc out performs cast iron in a residential setting. Pvc is slick for the life,household cleaners do not eat it like it does cast iron. You dont hafta worry about the soil attacking it. You dont hafta worry about electrolisis attacking it. You dont hafta worry about sewer gas attacking it. It installs quickly. Pvc is clearly the better pipe for residental. The only thing cast iron can claim is that its the quiet pipe......and if pvc is installed with care that can be solved to. Like not letting any framing or drywall touch the pipe or wrap it with sheetlead. Using cast iron doesn't make you cool or a good plumber...it only costs people more money to buy,install,maintain. Its not the better product.


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## TheMaster

Had an old timer today complaining about plastic drains and how he like cast iron and wanted it to make a comeback at a supply house. I told him..."Hold out your hands...now **** in one hand and want with the other hand and see which one fills up first" ......and walked out. Think he got the point?:laughing: Whats so funny is he spends his time complaining about a type of pipe when his customers ask for plastic and he's too stupid to realize this is a business and not a game. Give the customer what they wont or they will get it from sombody else. If customers wanted cast iron I would be installing cast iron. Period.


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## PLUMB TIME

If nothing else, this has gotta be closing in on a post record:laughing:


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## SlickRick

I have ran miles and miles of CI / Plastic and hybrids of both. It's just what we do... I'm just sayin'..


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## Protech

:whistling2:


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## Protech

Just so you know those were not from google


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## Tieger plumbing

I noticed the wall thickness stayed in tact, thus snaking and water Jetting would have kept these lines in service


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## Tieger plumbing

*Tieger plumbing*



Protech said:


> Just so you know those were not from google


 
I like the idea of having a tee placed like that on drainage I wonder is water / waste seeks its own level when both sinks discharge or if one is full and the other is empty?:whistling2:


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## Protech

I know, I was just showing how it scales up. PVC does not scale. That was the point I was making in those last pics.


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## user4

I think it has more to do with the crap you have for water than it does the inherent elements of the pipe.


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## TheMaster

Tieger plumbing said:


> I like the idea of having a tee placed like that on drainage I wonder is water / waste seeks its own level when both sinks discharge or if one is full and the other is empty?:whistling2:


 Like every other end outlet or center outlet drain or version of. :whistling2:


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## Airgap

Protech said:


> Just so you know those were not from google


Wow, fancy cabinets....


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## Protech

Crappy water or not, it still doesn't scale/rot PVC. Many parts of the country have the same problems. If you happen to live in one of those places PVC clear advantages.



Killertoiletspider said:


> I think it has more to do with the crap you have for water than it does the inherent elements of the pipe.


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## Protech

The galvo waste arms leaked black water behind the cabinets. The water extraction guys cut out the cabinets.



Airgap said:


> Wow, fancy cabinets....


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## Airgap

Protech said:


> The galvo waste arms leaked black water behind the cabinets. The water extraction guys cut out the cabinets.


 Not my house, but I believe I'd go ahead and scrap the countertop too. Gonna be tough getting cabinets back under there.


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