# Water Heater Hand Truck has Arrived!!!



## gear junkie

Ordered on Thursday, arrived on Saturday! Whoo hoo!!!!

Now the curse.....every time I buy a new tool, I don't need it for about 6 months. Crossing fingers it doesn't happen with water heaters. 

So now I got my hands on it, here's my thoughts:

-The straps that came with it are military grade and are simple but seem strong enough. 

- There are zerk fittings on the wheels which I think are great.

-seems strong and purpose-designed. But its light. My 12 year old son is able to pick this up with one hand.

-Not sure how this would do for stairs, no stairclimbers and I don't think the wheels will do well on them.

I really think this is going to do a bangup job on water heater installs. I have been bearhugging 40 and 50 gal WH but I realize I can't do that forever. This cart is way cheaper then back surgery or a chiropractor. I think for the average install where the WH is in the garage on a stand, this is perfect. 

http://www.wolfvalleytools.com/


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## Phat Cat

I hope it works out for you as you have envisioned.

After looking at the video a few weeks back, I had the guys in the shop look at the video to see if it may be of use. The first video that they watched kind of had them excited - the more they watched, the less excited they/we were. Started to notice some awkward moments / positions. If the guy demonstrating it's use had awkward moments after already having experience using it, what about the new guy using it in various situations?

In some shots, it appeared that the operator struggled, or you could see how control could easily be lost if your center of gravity was off. You mentioned in another thread that you thought this was something that promotes safety for plumbers. Honestly, I don't see it as offering much safety, and it has the potential to seriously injure someone IMO. 

I do see where it can save a homeowner money, or make a one man operation more profitable. 

When lifting a water heater, or placing in an awkward space, we send two men to do the job and the customer pays for it. It costs us nothing extra, and does not put the plumber in jeopardy. In lieu of an extra man, the second option for us would be what Master Mark has.

Overall, I would not have one in our shop due to the potential liability issues. Our plumbers are our most valuable asset, and I don't see using this as a good option for them, or the company.


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## gear junkie

Phat Cat said:


> I hope it works out for you as you have envisioned.
> 
> After looking at the video a few weeks back, I had the guys in the shop look at the video to see if it may be of use. The first video that they watched kind of had them excited - the more they watched, the less excited they/we were. Started to notice some awkward moments / positions. If the guy demonstrating it's use had awkward moments after already having experience using it, what about the new guy using it in various situations?
> 
> In some shots, it appeared that the operator struggled, or you could see how control could easily be lost if your center of gravity was off. You mentioned in another thread that you thought this was something that promotes safety for plumbers. Honestly, I don't see it as offering much safety, and it has the potential to seriously injure someone IMO.
> 
> I do see where it can save a homeowner money, or make a one man operation more profitable.
> 
> When lifting a water heater, or placing in an awkward space, we send two men to do the job and the customer pays for it. It costs us nothing extra, and does not put the plumber in jeopardy. In lieu of an extra man, the second option for us would be what Master Mark has.
> 
> Overall, I would not have one in our shop due to the potential liability issues. Our plumbers are our most valuable asset, and I don't see using this as a good option for them, or the company.


This product is designed for plumbers. You're not a plumber so your insight really isn't helpful or constructive on this. If you're able to have 2 plumbers to send out, great, but many of us don't, myself included. What should we do then?

The product Mark has weighs 115 lbs by itself.....loading or unloading that in a cargo van can hurt the operator as well. Also the mule is designed for the industrial warehouse setting and cost about 1500. Also I don't see stairclimbers on the Mule (mark's hand truck). Now they do make stair climbing trucks.....also weigh about 100-170 lbs. This one is so light a 12 year old can pick it up with one hand.


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## Phat Cat

gear junkie said:


> This product is designed for plumbers. You're not a plumber so your insight really isn't helpful or constructive on this. If you're able to have 2 plumbers to send out, great, but many of us don't, myself included. What should we do then?
> 
> The product Mark has weighs 115 lbs by itself.....loading or unloading that in a cargo van can hurt the operator as well. Also the mule is designed for the industrial warehouse setting and cost about 1500. Also I don't see stairclimbers on the Mule (mark's hand truck). Now they do make stair climbing trucks.....also weigh about 100-170 lbs. This one is so light a 12 year old can pick it up with one hand.


Exactly! I was initially hopeful when I watched the one video. Since I would not be using it, I relied on the men who would be using it to offer their insight. It was not favorable. They were the ones who pointed out the potential dangers / pitfalls.

There was another product posted several years ago also claiming to solve the water heater lifting issue that involved using straps. Also, looked into that as a possible viable option. Decided against the straps too for similar concerns. 

From a business perspective, I would think any business owner permitting their employees to use this cart would definitely want to weigh the pros / cons, costs / benefits against the potential for serious harm.

As for you being a one shop operator, if you do get hurt while using this, you stand to lose the most financially. 

If I remember correctly, Ron was out on Workman's Comp. for quite a long time due to an injury where a h.o. offered to help lift a water heater and the homeowner lost control. Ron should not have been put in that position. 

I don't have the solution, which is why any product claiming to solve this issue catches my attention. There are many jobs we turn down because we are not equipped to do them. You feel safe using it, and I sincerely wish you the best in using it.

Three plumbers died this week. One that I was very fond of, one that I didn't know, and one that died in an accident related to plumbing. An employer is not only financially liable for mishaps related to safety, I believe an employer is morally responsible for the safety of the plumbers they employ.

I will not apologize for not promoting a product that I feel has the potential to put plumbers at risk. 

We can agree to disagree as to whether this product is safe or not. It's in production - if it's as great as you think it to be, then one day, it will show up in our local Lowes. Until that time, our plumbers will not be the test subjects. :no:


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## Redwood

I don't see a need for it here...

With our climate garages are a stupid place for plumbing... Unless you want frozen pipes... So there aren't any raised platforms... Isn't FVIR phasing out raised platforms in codes? (I haven't paid any attention as I never see raised platforms)

I use the hand truck for the K-3800 drain machine as a hand truck for water heaters without having to carry anything extra on board the van..


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## DDDave

I understand how we can move on from here.

I have made no claims about this tool, except one- it's the so-called 'best way to lift a water heater'. A little whimsical, I thought. I have and do refer to it as a 'water heater lifter' out of convenience. I don't like to, and the term generally goes away after discussing it with someone. I've freely shown 'what can be done' with videos, but I will never say 'you can do this'. May seem technical, but I consider it respect for the other person to not tell them but show/ask them.

Regarding self-promotion. Please note that the parts and configuration of the kit plus the basics of how to use it were freely viewable and being discussed well before I let it out that I sell them. Anyone could copy it and learn how to use it without even talking to me. Please acknowledge that you were not asked nor are you expected to promote this tool. Or just go easier on me.

Your concerns for plumbers are appreciated. I was in a place in life where I needed to do water heaters differently, and an idea came to me. Whether this solution covers everyone we want, we'd probably agree 'nope'.

This product is not offered as 'safe'. This product is offered as 'demonstrably useful' to someone wanting a better way for their situation.


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## Phat Cat

DDDave said:


> it's the so-called 'best way to lift a water heater'. . . and do refer to it as a 'water heater lifter' out of convenience. . . I've freely shown 'what can be done' with videos, but I will never say 'you can do this'.





> This product is not offered as 'safe'.





> This product is offered as 'demonstrably useful' to someone wanting a better way for their situation.


:blink:


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## sierra2000

I'm with Cat on this one. Initially it looked promising but the more i watched it with the straps and all...IDK. 
What ever happened to CVT water heater lift? This one he's pushing on here looks like a manual knock off type of CVT.


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## saysflushable

Looks like a fricken awesome tool. I don't know if it works but I for one appreciate a plumber who comes up with an idea to help make a job easier and I'm sure we can't say safer but safer alternative. 

I'm thinking just to get heaters in and out of pans it might be handy.


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## OpenSights

I'm with Red as I really have no use for it in my area, or at least little to none... I won't work at those places unless they pay triple.

However, it looks like something a jarhead like myself would come up with to get the job done.


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## wharfrat

I like the tool. 

I want to hear Gears thoughts after using it too.


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## gear junkie

sierra2000 said:


> I'm with Cat on this one. Initially it looked promising but the more i watched it with the straps and all...IDK.
> What ever happened to CVT water heater lift? This one he's pushing on here looks like a manual knock off type of CVT.
> http://youtu.be/uUXcqPhC4RA


Looks great but doesn't look like you can use it when the WH is in a pan


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## thumper

Looks like a safer way to remove and install a gas water heater off the stand when 
working by yourself. But how often will you need it? Looking forward to the full review.


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## gear junkie

Unfortunantly I do very little WH's. I just looked at my invoices and I've done 5 for the entire year. So maybe I'm the perfect guy to test one out because I'm as novice as you can get. 

I plan on grabbing an old one at my supply house to try out this week.


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## Phat Cat

gear junkie said:


> Unfortunantly I do very little WH's. I just looked at my invoices and I've done 5 for the entire year. So maybe I'm the perfect guy to test one out because I'm as novice as you can get.
> 
> I plan on grabbing an old one at my supply house to try out this week.


Have you had a chance to use this yet? Was it easy to maneuver, or was it awkward?


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## gear junkie

Phat Cat said:


> Have you had a chance to use this yet? Was it easy to maneuver, or was it awkward?


I wanted to have pics on a real job but unfortunately I haven't had a water heater job since buying it so I went to the supply house to try out on all the old water heaters. Really works super well. Not awkward at all. I can balance a WH with 1 hand on this. 

I used to use a wh lifting strap but still relied on my strength to get the wh up on the stand. I've never been hurt but I know my number is coming. This thing is easy and I'm glad I bought it. 

I really wish more people gave Dave a fair shake. I hope to see him at the flow expo if he can make it.


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## Phat Cat

How tall are you? I know our taller plumbers in general have an easier time with 50's and 80's.


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## gear junkie

6'3"


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## Plumber

That dolly's curved back is worth something.


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## Greg755

I just use a regular appliance hand truck. It goes easy up steps and has the straps built in. Of course it does not lift up the water heater, I do have to tilt it forward a little to slip the truck under it. Mine was used so it was cheap.


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## sierra2000

Greg755 said:


> I just use a regular appliance hand truck. It goes easy up steps and has the straps built in. Of course it does not lift up the water heater, I do have to tilt it forward a little to slip the truck under it. Mine was used so it was cheap.


You missed the boat dude. You're comparing two different purposes of the dolly.


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## KoleckeINC

Nobody uses two 3/4 18" pipes and couplings ay? Drop cloth in a Contractor bag over the bottom of the old heater while traveling over carpet.


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## Plumber

I had to lift a wh twice today because I didn't get it the first time. It was only 20'' from floor. Embarrassing, that.

Wolf website is done. Anyone know about that? Not that I'm going to order one, but I just wanted to look at it a bit....


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## Plumber

Seems Wolf Valley Tools is out of business. His Hot Rod Hand Truck and Strap Kit (water heater lift) is now a collectors item.


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## gear junkie

So talked to Dave tonight. He was having server issues. Should be back up and his number is listed on his profile. 

Some things I mentioned to him that may be of use to other people. 

Since buying it, my curse has come back.....not a single water heater call. BTW...I looked it up....I did 5 water heaters for 2015. So anyway when I went to supply house and practice with it, I figured about 2 hours. After 30 minutes I was done, because it was that easy to catch on to. 

A questioned I asked Dave was how many times have you been hurt since using your cart? He's done about 400 water heaters with the cart and not once. That's a quantifiable number with a real result. As easy as the cart is to balance a water heater, I have no doubt this will really reduce injury from heavy lifting.

Also he's on the fence about the flow expo. Hope to see him there.


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## Will

Looks cool, but would have limited use because of the space needed to use it. But looks to save the back when you got enough space for it, have to look into it.


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## Will

gear junkie said:


> Looks great but doesn't look like you can use it when the WH is in a pan



???? That would be every water heater install for me. Pans are required here.


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## gear junkie

Will said:


> ???? That would be every water heater install for me. Pans are required here.


Same here, I was referring to the link Sierra posted.


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## plbgbiz

I have lifted more than one or two WH's in my life and I must say that initially looking at the video I was just about ready to place an order. I brought all the guys in and watched the demonstration videos on his site. We're going to pass on it for two reasons but not because I think it is a bad tool. 

Half or more of our raised WH installs are through a door opening that is lower than the top of the WH. For those circumstances the WH has to go in top first and the tool won't help.

The other reason is that I can have two men on each install if needed so it's not as much of a priority as with a OMS like Ben. 

If I were still a OMS or did not have the circumstances to have two men on WH installs, then I'd probably order it today. Someday I may get one anyway just to have. It would allow for one man to handle the job but only for half (or less) of the WH's we see. Chances are it would be a $300 dust collector at my shop.


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## Plumbus

I bought one. None of my guys have used it yet. Unfortunately, most of the heaters we install are 75 and above. And, like Biz, we can send a young buck out as a spare hand whenever needed.


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## Debo22

Will said:


> ???? That would be every water heater install for me. Pans are required here.







Looks like it would work with pans


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## DDDave

Will said:


> Looks cool, but would have limited use because of the space needed to use it. But looks to save the back when you got enough space for it, have to look into it.


Here's a link to a video showing a hallway furnace plenum installation:




And this one's kinda cool, I think. Customer was nice to work for:





This question doesn't come up much, so thanks for putting it out there...


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## Debo22

DDDave said:


> Here's a link to a video showing a hallway furnace plenum installation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc2te0_tdUc
> 
> And this one's kinda cool, I think. Customer was nice to work for:
> YouTube
> 
> This question doesn't come up much, so thanks for putting it out there...


Not working, says you need to sign up to view


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## DDDave

Debo22 said:


> Not working, says you need to sign up to view


Sorry. Thought I could post the direct link and have it work. I changed the settings at YouTube, so it should be good to go.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber

I think I may give one of these a try.


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## Cal

OMS here also Dave . Looks good ! In our location we have A LOT of stairs. Do your tires have any flex to them ? How is this hand cart when hauling an old , heavy up 12-15 stairs ? 
I think you've done a great job !


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## DDDave

Cal said:


> OMS here also Dave . Looks good ! In our location we have A LOT of stairs. Do your tires have any flex to them ? How is this hand cart when hauling an old , heavy up 12-15 stairs ?
> I think you've done a great job !


Regarding 'flex'- Essentially, NO. They are NOT solid, but they might as well be, especially when compared to tires with tubes/air in them. To me this is a negative because of little cushion. But I do prefer them due to little rolling resistance. I can use them to actually 'grab' angles on stair treads, and they turn corners way easy because the tread doesn't twist.

That being said- This hand truck's built with an industry standard 5/8" axle, meaning there's a selection of tires/wheels out there that can be installed, tube tires included.

Regarding going up/down stairs- Only one other possible negative here IMO- the center handle. I'm 6'2" with a 32" inseam, and I am somewhat aware (haha) of the handle when I'm pulling two-handed up a set of stairs. It points right at my crotch (ahem!). In a 'shorter inseam' situation, the handle will be headed more for a guy's belt, which is better.

On the plus-side for stairs- Stability/control. This thing has essentially one, continuous handle across the top. And the tank sits back into the rails. Meaning I have choice where I pull from, and I concentrate less on keeping the thing stable.

I don't presently have a video of this, but I see the need.

I do use it in mountain homes, multi-story city condo's, places with stairs. Basements, railroad ties for stairs, narrow turns on inside landings, etc.


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## Cal

Thank You! I'm 5'5" soooo no issue with " manhood removal fear"&#55357;&#56837;. The stairs I deal with are 50-50 carpet or wood . Have dumped Fix.a.flat into mine and they have hardened pretty good. I will ponder this some more.


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## Cal

Dave thanks for the messages ! Just ordered and am looking forward to using it . Have had the same hand cart 20 years and she needs to go to Jesus ,,, i'm just waiting for the bottom plate to spit off half way up a stairwell . OH LORD THAT WOULD SUCK ! 

Thank you for all your thought into this cart !

Cal


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## GREENPLUM

I'm concerned about wrapping around the plastic gas valves to lift heater. Still interested, looks like a tool that would speed up the job


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## DDDave

GREENPLUM said:


> I'm concerned about wrapping around the plastic gas valves to lift heater. Still interested, looks like a tool that would speed up the job


The plastic gas valves are interesting. I never lift a customer's new tank by the gas valve, whether plastic or not (most of them are of course). I use the 'cinch strap' which bear-hugs the heater and tightens up as the tank hangs from the hand truck. This is the way lifting of new tanks should be done (with this kit).

That being said, someday most leakers will have plastic gas valves. The tanks will have to be removed and what'll happen then? I'm not too worried. I have a non-working 50 gallon with an all-plastic one in my garage. I've used it to lower the tank when experimenting. I heard it crack once, but it wasn't in the area that would keep a strap in place or carry a load. It was a tab on the front cover when the angle was wrong. Hope this helps.


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## Cal

Dave ,, received my great hand cart yesterday and THANK YOU for all of it ! Got a 50 gas on Tuesday , bunch of steps, tight spaces , etc. REALLY looking forward to using your cart. 
Nice solid build , great video instruction, just exceptionally well thought out & applied skills !!


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## 760GWS

Good to meet you at the San Diego PHCC event Dave. And thanks for the front door delivery! We're looking forward to our first use. Been on digups all week though :-[ 
It's all money!


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## DDDave

GREENPLUM said:


> I'm concerned about wrapping around the plastic gas valves to lift heater.



I did a warranty swap-out yesterday and came up with this video clip. Its a short clip that's zoomed-in so the gcv is bigger. Not very scientific but I thought it might interest...


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## DDDave

760GWS said:


> Good to meet you at the San Diego PHCC event Dave. And thanks for the front door delivery! We're looking forward to our first use. Been on digups all week though :-[
> It's all money!


Good to meet you, wish we'd had more time. Hope to see you if you make it to the Long Beach event.


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## ShtRnsdownhill

I watched a few videos, personally it aint for me..looks like too much can go wrong too fast..I have a appliance hand truck with stair crawlers I use all the time for boilers and whs..again the wh on pedestal must be regional..havnt seen one in my area yet..so no need to lift em up..for around $100 bucks maybe..$300.. no way...just my opinion...


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## DDDave

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> .....again the wh on pedestal must be regional..havnt seen one in my area yet..so no need to lift em up..for around $100 bucks maybe..$300.. no way...just my opinion...


Point taken about regionality, that's good feedback. This thing came out of my personal experience, of course, and there are whole areas of the country where it doesn't make sense. Regarding cost- 'understood, sir.' I honestly hope this never gets produced 'offshore'. $100 will be tough to meet, when a plain hand truck (with pneumatic tires) goes for 60. $300 does include shipping.



ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I watched a few videos, personally it aint for me..looks like too much can go wrong too fast..


Again, 'understood, sir'. When used as it was designed to be used it is a stable system. Your point means I have to get that across better. I'm still learning, and loving it.
The system- meaning the way things hook up and move- is designed to be self-stabilizing. The hand truck takes the tank and tends to keep it between the wheels. The rest is up to the operator, happens in slow motion, and is reversible at any point with minimum decision-making beforehand.
For what it's worth, I may be somewhat gutsy, but I'm not taking any chances using this per the 50 gallon videos. I can't afford mistakes onsite. In the 75 gallon videos, hopefully there's entertainment value- 'experienced operator says don't try this at home' kind of thing. Thanks, better videos forthcoming:yes:


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## ShtRnsdownhill

DDDave said:


> Point taken about regionality, that's good feedback. This thing came out of my personal experience, of course, and there are whole areas of the country where it doesn't make sense. Regarding cost- 'understood, sir.' I honestly hope this never gets produced 'offshore'. $100 will be tough to meet, when a plain hand truck (with pneumatic tires) goes for 60. $300 does include shipping.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, 'understood, sir'. When used as it was designed to be used it is a stable system. Your point means I have to get that across better. I'm still learning, and loving it.
> The system- meaning the way things hook up and move- is designed to be self-stabilizing. The hand truck takes the tank and tends to keep it between the wheels. The rest is up to the operator, happens in slow motion, and is reversible at any point with minimum decision-making beforehand.
> For what it's worth, I may be somewhat gutsy, but I'm not taking any chances using this per the 50 gallon videos. I can't afford mistakes onsite. In the 75 gallon videos, hopefully there's entertainment value- 'experienced operator says don't try this at home' kind of thing. Thanks, better videos forthcoming:yes:


ok didnt know price included shipping, if it something one could get good use out of..then its worth to that person, but so far in 30 years I havent come across a single time that would have helped me, so from my view its useless to me, but could be valuable to someone else..
I think if the tank or cart go forward and get you off balance, your going for a ride..
I think you should find something else than the rear bumper of a van to show how to get it up on the cart..many vans dont have that flat area..maybe it would work on a front stoop or other common object easily found around a home..


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## DDDave

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> ...I think you should find something else than the rear bumper of a van to show how to get it up on the cart..many vans dont have that flat area..maybe it would work on a front stoop or other common object easily found around a home..


Thanks, will do.Thought about just putting winch on the thing. I've used a 5gallon bucket, ammo box, stool, a curb. Lots of different things.


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## ShtRnsdownhill

DDDave said:


> Thanks, will do.Thought about just putting winch on the thing. I've used a 5gallon bucket, ammo box, stool, a curb. Lots of different things.


how about a bracket with flat area that will fit into a trailer hitch? this way it will be stable and wont fall over..and this could be sold as an option to the hand truck......only 20% gross sales of the bracket for that idea..lol


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## DDDave

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> how about a bracket with flat area that will fit into a trailer hitch? this way it will be stable and wont fall over..and this could be sold as an option to the hand truck......only 20% gross sales of the bracket for that idea..lol


Makes sense, how many could we sell?
What about a small folding? shelf that attaches/detaches to the stepladder a guy already uses>? Or a stool that collapses with one hand pulling on it. Light and compact and could be used for other things. I haven't found one of those out there that's tall enough.

I did a basement job the other day in an 80yr old house in Riverside (haha yes they do exist in socal). The straps in the kit were completely useless and the landing at the bottom of the stairs was too small for the tank AND the hand truck (fah!)


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