# let me have it! lol



## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

My first non-residential 80 gal in quite a few years. If I slipped according to ICC standards let me know.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

It's freakin invisible... :laughing:


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)




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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Where the hot re-circ line ties back into the cold looks OK, but, why does it tee off back into the hot also? I'm not familiar with that setup.


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

Tommy plumber said:


> Where the hot re-circ line ties back into the cold looks OK, but, why does it tee off back into the hot also? I'm not familiar with that setup.


The thermostatic balancing valve to ensure that the temperature throughout is below what the city says it will tolerate


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> Where the hot re-circ line ties back into the cold looks OK, but, why does it tee off back into the hot also? I'm not familiar with that setup.


Looks like a tempering valve to me...


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

OK. That tempers all the water coming out of the W/H then. I usually see them only in commercial settings; ie: (1) hot line un-tempered to the dishwashers and (2) the other tempered water to everything else.

I'm not used to seeing the only hot line with a tempering valve. I guess if somebody cranks up the t-stats, then the tempering valve will be a backup. We don't install tempering valves here in residential.


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

Same here Tommy. I usually sick to residential so I was gonna see how much constructive criticism I could muster from the members if i botched up this one too bad. It's in a night club.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

What I'm trying to say is that I don't see a tempered hot line coming off the W/H also connected to the hot re-circ return line. When I've installed a tempering valve, it was only connected to the cold so it could mix hot with cold; I've just never seen it also tied into the hot water re-circ.

The copper looks nice and straight. 

Some guys might say something about the copper female adapters connecting directly to the steel nipples in the tank, but that's how we did it in south FL all the time and it always passed inspection. The W/H's will usually corrode and leak before electrolysis corrodes the steel nipples...:laughing:


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

The recirc pump should run continuously. If not the tempering valve will not function properly.

It's piped correctly if the pump is continuously in operation.

Does that PVR valve have unions on both sides? If not its jammed up against the wall.


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

Tommy plumber said:


> What I'm trying to say is that I don't see a tempered hot line coming off the W/H also connected to the hot re-circ return line. When I've installed a tempering valve, it was only connected to the cold so it could mix hot with cold; I've just never seen it also tied into the hot water re-circ.
> 
> The copper looks nice and straight.
> 
> Some guys might say something about the copper female adapters connecting directly to the steel nipples in the tank, but that's how we did it in south FL all the time and it always passed inspection. The W/H's will usually corrode and leak before electrolysis corrodes the steel nipples...:laughing:


That's the good thing about the pro press nipples. There bronze, which is less likely than brass, and way less likely than copper to have electrolysis happen. I see your point with the recirculation line feeding tempered water back into the cold inlet. I guess I should have tee'd back in after the tempered outlet huh? In a static state I guess it could cause the water heater to work a little more due to the cold being mixed in?


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

Olemissplumber said:


> The recirc pump should run continuously. If not the tempering valve will not function properly.
> 
> It's piped correctly if the pump is continuously in operation.
> 
> Does that PVR valve have unions on both sides? If not its jammed up against the wall.


Yes, PRV had unions and the pump will be in continuous operation when they give me the okay to replace. I turned it on and it hummed nice for a second then went to rattling like it had a bad bearing. It can be cycled off and then on and it sounds good till it gets running full speed then goes to rattling. I thought it might be cavitation or aeration so I purged every hot valve in the place but to no avail.


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

not piped correctly.. you're not tempering the return water properly this is a good article that will explain

http://www.plumbingengineer.com/may_10/code.php


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

Plumbworker said:


> not piped correctly.. you're not tempering the return water properly this is a good article that will explain
> 
> http://www.plumbingengineer.com/may_10/code.php


If that's a watts valve,watts says its piped correctly. As I said the pump must run continuously,it could be placed on a timer but during off periods the water will not be tempered properly. This would not matter during a no flow condition and it most likely wouldn't matter if showers are not involved in the scenario. Only off when the building is not occupied.


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

Plumbworker said:


> not piped correctly.. this is a good article that will explain
> 
> http://www.plumbingengineer.com/may_10/code.php


I read that and it said its piped correctly. The valve isn't oversized, the pump isn't on a timer, the check valves are in the right position, and the recirculation line is piped back into the cold inlet as stated in the final paragraphs of the article. I'm confused as to why you quickly said it was piped wrong yet that article says its okay?


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

LOOK at the piping diagrams at the bottom of the article do you have a split into the cold side of the mixing valve and then continue back to the tap on the heater...










I also dont see in the instructions anywhere where watts has provided any piping diagram wit a return line..

http://www.watts.com/pages/_products_details.asp?pid=841

http://media.wattswater.com/1915906.pdf

i could type all this up to explain to you but i'm lazy so i'm going to post this article..


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

Olemissplumber said:


> If that's a watts valve,watts says its piped correctly. As I said the pump must run continuously,it could be placed on a timer but during off periods the water will not be tempered properly. This would not matter during a no flow condition and it most likely wouldn't matter if showers are not involved in the scenario. Only off when the building is not occupied.


this does not make any sense to me sorry..


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

Plumbworker said:


> this does not make any sense to me sorry..


That's ok,it's piped correctly. The return is piped back to the cold water supply just like section 607.2.3 describes per your article.

If you don't understand then I can live with that,we will just agree to disagree. 

There are three basic designs when you have a circ pump and a mixing valve. The original poster has met that specification. Your article in fact proves it.

Here is what watts says with recirculated water
--------------------------------------------------------
C.3 Pipe recirculated tempered water return so it connects to hot water source and cold side of Tempering valve.
--------------------------------------------------------

The original poster has the return line connected to the hot water source(water heater) and the return line connected to the COLD side of the tempering valve.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

My first question is why would a professional buy a water heater from Home Depot? Or is it customer supplied?

Second question is why not run re-circ line to bottom of heater into drain bung with a brass nipple and a tee? I've never seen anyone run the re- circ off the top of the heater before. Just wondering if there is a specific reason its piped to the top I may not know about.


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

Plumbworker said:


> not piped correctly.. this is a good article that will explain
> 
> http://www.plumbingengineer.com/may_10/code.php


Duplicate


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

theplumbinator said:


> My first question is why would a professional buy a water heater from Home Depot? Or is it customer supplied?
> 
> Second question is why not run re-circ line to bottom of heater into drain bung with a brass nipple and a tee? I've never seen anyone run the re- circ off the top of the heater before. Just wondering if there is a specific reason its piped to the top I may not know about.


Customer supplied. Good catch on that! Lol.
I have seen it done both ways and prefer, like you said to go into the bottom. With the dip tube and check valves its going to end up in the same spot either way within reason. I was just going with the arrangement that was left. The pump was high on the left so it was just Little easier to do it that way.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

JDGA80 said:


> Customer supplied. Good catch on that! Lol.
> I have seen it done both ways and prefer, like you said to go into the bottom. With the dip tube and check valves its going to end up in the same spot either way within reason. I was just going with the arrangement that was left. The pump was high on the left so it was just Little easier to do it that way.


By code you must pipe it into cold supply as you did and also to cold side of mixing valve 

2009 IPC


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> By code you must pipe it into cold supply as you did and also to cold side of mixing valve
> 
> 2009 IPC


That 1/2 pro press tee from the recirculation pump goes to the cold inlet of mixing valve and the inlet of water heater at the 3/4x3/4x1/2 tee.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

JDGA80 said:


> That 1/2 pro press tee from the recirculation pump goes to the cold inlet of mixing valve and the inlet of water heater at the 3/4x3/4x1/2 tee.


I know that. It's correct. I was referring to ur statement of why u piped it to the top instead of the drain. I always pipe it to the top looks better in my opinion.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> OK. That tempers all the water coming out of the W/H then. I usually see them only in commercial settings; ie: (1) hot line un-tempered to the dishwashers and (2) the other tempered water to everything else.
> 
> I'm not used to seeing the only hot line with a tempering valve. I guess if somebody cranks up the t-stats, then the tempering valve will be a backup. We don't install tempering valves here in residential.


Tommy they are typically not run from the hot side back into the tempering valve. You will find more tempering valves connected to cold water connected to the hot and then to the house.

Most of the recirculating systems in Florida connect to the bottom of the tank at the drain valve or into the inlet side of the water heater.


This installation is correct it is a different way to make the connection.


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

well i must have been trippin last night.. cause i looked at the photo today and noticed yeah it should work correctly.. the return is split to keep the hot loop tempered.. the whole reason for splitting the return and branching into the cold side of the mixing valve is to promote flow to the cold side of mixing valve during periods of no draw from the fixtures and the pump is running this will keep the loop tempered. It is not correct to circulate through the tank (bottom tap connection etc.) with a mixing valve installed if there is no flow to the cold side of mixing valve will cause the hot port on the valve to choke down and slug untempered water into the hot piping so when someone draws water from a fixture they get a extremely hot slug of water (scalding) then tempered water with then began to flow..

You should really consider balancing valves next time to fine tune everything...


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## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

I don't see expansion tank??? 

You need one.


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

vinpadalino said:


> I don't see expansion tank???
> 
> You need one.


Might be time for some glasses. Lol


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

vinpadalino said:


> I don't see expansion tank???
> 
> You need one.


The photo in the OP.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

Expansion tanks are not required to be at the heater anyway so if it wasn't in the pic it wouldn't matter too much.


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## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

My bad was looking at plum workers drawing.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Olemissplumber said:


> Expansion tanks are not required to be at the heater anyway so if it wasn't in the pic it wouldn't matter too much.


Proven that u are not a hydronic heating guy, much less a plumber that doesn't know it all..


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Proven that u are not a hydronic heating guy, much less a plumber that doesn't know it all..


Your off base. Quote me the code that says the expansion tank must be located at the water heater.

I've openly admitted I don't do heating and I never claimed to do heating. What does that have to do with this thread or an expansion tank in a potable water system?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

vinpadalino said:


> My bad was looking at plum workers drawing.


I figured that. Just poking a bit of fun.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Olemissplumber said:


> Your off base. Quote me the code that says the expansion tank must be located at the water heater.
> 
> I've openly admitted I don't do heating and I never claimed to do heating. What does that have to do with this thread or an expansion tank in a potable water system?


Where does it need to be then?

And what is the reasoning for having an expansion tank?


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

Plumberman said:


> Where does it need to be then?
> 
> And what is the reasoning for having an expansion tank?


Where does it need to be? Anywhere in the cold system as long as its not separated from the water heater by a one way valve making it excluded from the closed system it was designed to protect from excessive pressure due to thermal expansion. Water cannot be compressed for practical purposes we are speaking of so in a closed system when the water is heated the pressure will spike unless an acceptable means to control it is present and operating. An expansion tank has a charge if air on one side of the internal bladder than can be compressed.

Is that good enough. Lol


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Olemissplumber said:


> Where does it need to be? Anywhere in the cold system as long as its not separated from the water heater by a one way valve making it excluded from the closed system it was designed to protect from excessive pressure due to thermal expansion. Water cannot be compressed for practical purposes we are speaking of so in a closed system when the water is heated the pressure will spike unless an acceptable means to control it is present and operating. An expansion tank has a charge if air on one side of the internal bladder than can be compressed.
> 
> Is that good enough. Lol


The expansion tank was in the picture... But your praying and spraying with your post kept you from seeing that.

It's industry standard to place them at the water heater per manufacturer specs, so like in an other recent thread there's "no debate"


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

Plumberman said:


> The expansion tank was in the picture... But your praying and spraying with your post kept you from seeing that.
> 
> It's industry standard to place them at the water heater per manufacturer specs, so like in an other recent thread there's "no debate"


What? I never said it didn't have a tank. It's obviously in the pic the guy who said he didn't see it was looking at the pipe diagram that plumb worker posted.

The manufacturer does not state it has to be at the water heater and in fact the manufacturer says they should be install so that if they rupture no damage will result to the structure. The plumbing codes do not require the expansion tank to be installed at the water heater either.

Look it up . Lol


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Olemissplumber said:


> Expansion tanks are not required to be at the heater anyway so if it wasn't in the pic it wouldn't matter too much.


...

Where should we put them Olemissplumber almighty? 

Outside eh?


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

Plumberman said:


> ...
> 
> Where should we put them Olemissplumber almighty?
> 
> Outside eh?


That would be fine if it were protected from freezing. Name one reason why it couldn't be.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> ...
> 
> Where should we put them Olemissplumber almighty?
> 
> Outside eh?


Do we need to install the exp tank on private well system , oh mighty Ole??


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Do we need to install the exp tank on private well system , oh mighty Ole??


If the plumbing code requires it you do. If not the system will be protected by the bladder tank as long as its not isolated from the system.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Olemissplumber said:


> That would be fine if it were protected from freezing. Name one reason why it couldn't be.


Guess we should place everything outside the house to keep from damaging the structure in case of failures..

What if the system wasn't a closed loop?


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

Plumberman said:


> Guess we should place everything outside the house to keep from damaging the structure in case of failures..
> 
> What if the system wasn't a closed loop?


What if you go to plumbing school or get you a good code book so we don't play "50 basic plumbing questions" all day.

If its not a closed system thermal expansion is not an issue if street pressure is below 80 psi. Thermal expansion is usually still required by the major codes but exceptions could be made by local code authority. What else ya got captain 1st year?

You guys are the ones who pulled out your can opener trying to have fun with your insults and condescending attitudes making asses of yourselves.....turns out the teachers are the students this time.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Olemissplumber said:


> What if you go to plumbing school or get you a good code book so we don't play "50 basic plumbing questions" all day.
> 
> If its not a closed system thermal expansion is not an issue if street pressure is below 80 psi. Thermal expansion is usually still required by the major codes but exceptions could be made by local code authority. What else ya got captain 1st year?


Been to trade school.. And the code you operate under may be different than others operate under... I can tell you for a fact it is.

Was just wanting to further my knowledge from some one so accomplished and highly educated as yourself... Captain


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

Plumberman said:


> Been to trade school..
> 
> Was just wanting to further my knowledge from some one so accomplished and highly educated as yourself... Captain


Well you came to the right guy. That's for certain.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Olemissplumber said:


> Well you came to the right guy. That's for certain.


That's very debatable...


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

Plumberman said:


> That's very debatable...


You guys here on this forum need to show more respect for new members and then maybe some will stick around and contribute.

You guys act like your too good for anyone and everyone if they make a few posts too many you start your ridiculing and condescending tone.

This is not a private club it's a forum so start acting like it. It's always been that way,it's like there is only room for a few people and others are just baggage and its open season on them. Like high school kids oops middle school more like it.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Olemissplumber said:


> You guys here on this forum need to show more respect for new members and then maybe some will stick around and contribute.
> 
> You guys act like your too good for anyone and everyone if they make a few posts too many you start your ridiculing and condescending tone.
> 
> This is not a private club it's a forum so start acting like it. It's always been that way,it's like there is only room for a few people and others are just baggage and its open season on them. Like high school kids oops middle school more like it.


Respect is earned not given...

You sir are the one puffing your chest. But hey what do we know we aren't as accomplished as you.... What were we thinking by evening trying to match your expertise in any plumbing related subject?


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

Plumberman said:


> Respect is earned not given...
> 
> You sir are the one puffing your chest. But hey what do we know we aren't as accomplished as you.... What were we thinking by evening trying to match your expertise in any plumbing related subject?


Earned respect on an Internet forum? Whatever man I don't need acceptance or pats on the back but others might.

I think your figuring out I'm not handyman wanna be by now. There are good plumbers here on this forum and there are some real chumps too doing some ridiculing and disrespecting to new members.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Olemissplumber said:


> Earned respect on an Internet forum? Whatever man I don't need acceptance or pats on the back but others might.
> 
> I think your figuring out I'm not handyman wanna be by now. There ate good plumbers here on this forum and there are some real chimps too doing some ridiculing and disrespecting to new members also.


You obviously need some patting on the back because you keep trying to puff your chest, then when someone questions it you resort to name calling... That PM to Tex was pretty classy too..

Your upset because we could care less about hearing your bs and how great you think you are. You sound just like my old supervisor.. He barks all the time and no one listens.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Olemissplumber said:


> What if you go to plumbing school or get you a good code book so we don't play "50 basic plumbing questions" all day.
> 
> If its not a closed system thermal expansion is not an issue if street pressure is below 80 psi. Thermal expansion is usually still required by the major codes but exceptions could be made by local code authority. What else ya got captain 1st year?
> 
> You guys are the ones who pulled out your can opener trying to have fun with your insults and condescending attitudes making asses of yourselves.....turns out the teachers are the students this time.


I see theMaster has moved on again so I am a little late on this. An expansion tank is not needed if your street pressure is lower than the rating on your T&P, your regulator has a bypass and there are no check valve type devices between the water heater and the supply from the city. If it installed as listed above, any thermal expansion goes back into the street side. Because some cities are using dual checks on their yokes now, you always need to check with them first. Some local codes do not trust the plumbers to make the call and require them on all water heaters.

Mark


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

I like to add the placement of the expansion tank needs to be near the water heater with no shut off valve between the water heater and the expansion tank per code. So on a well system you are required to have an expansion tank on the water heater since the pressure tank on a well would have a shut off valve between the tank and water heater. 



> Closed water systems shall have a properly sized thermal expansion tank located in the cold water supply as near to the water heater as possible and with no shut-off valve or other device between the heater and the expansion tank.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

An expansion tank can really be installed anywhere in the cold water system and it serves the same purpose. (assumes no valves between the tank and the heater)

Mark


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