# Friday's boiler prefab



## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

This is being installed in a spec house, starting Monday. Doing all this work (a day's work, including pick up) in the shop just makes more sense than dragging all out to the job and doing it. In the shop not only can I get a decent coffee when I want one, but if/when I run out of things I just pull the door closed and go to the supplier. On the job I'd have to pack things up so they don't get stolen.


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## Ishmael (Dec 9, 2009)

Nice looking work. And of course this is the first post I chose to look at after spending the last hour or so googling garage plans; wishing I had someplace to do that very kind of thing you're doing! It's about 50 degrees right now and the wind is howling outside. Forecast is about the same for the boiler replacement I've got scheduled for Monday - in a tiny shed off the back side of the house.


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## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

futz said:


> This is being installed in a spec house, starting Monday. Doing all this work (a day's work, including pick up) in the shop just makes more sense than dragging all out to the job and doing it. In the shop not only can I get a decent coffee when I want one, but if/when I run out of things I just pull the door closed and go to the supplier. On the job I'd have to pack things up so they don't get stolen.


 Nice work. How are you shipping it, and is that a Utica boiler?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

is that a true boiler or just the water heater?

If it is water and not steam, won't that steel pipe corrode?

Forgive the stupid questions, but we don't do much boiler work in this subtropical climate.

Edit: I just noticed the pump, so it must be a water heater.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Protech said:


> is that a true boiler or just the water heater?


It appears to be a hot water boiler, DHW production off this unit could be on a separate zone for an indirect water heater.



Protech said:


> If it is water and not steam, won't that steel pipe corrode?


No it is a closed system so the water will have a low oxygen level and corrosion is not a problem even with dissimilar metals. If the system has leaks and constant replenishment corrosion could be a problem.

Stupid questions about boilers could be expected from a plumber in Florida. You can probably count the number of boilers in your whole state on your fingers and toes...


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## Ishmael (Dec 9, 2009)

Protech said:


> is that a true boiler or just the water heater?
> 
> If it is water and not steam, won't that steel pipe corrode?
> 
> ...


It's a boiler, and the black iron pipe and fittings are very durable - they'll last for decades.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

vinpadalino said:


> Nice work. How are you shipping it,


Well... you see that van there? :laughing: Yes, they fit fine. I lay it on its side on a water tank cardboard so I can slide it easily in and out.



> and is that a Utica boiler?


Burnham


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Ishmael said:


> It's a boiler, and the black iron pipe and fittings are very durable - they'll last for decades.


That's the answer. Once the initial water fill combines all its free oxygen with the iron, making a thin protective layer of rust inside, corrosion pretty much stops, as there is no more free oxygen to oxidize things. The water turns black - we call it black gold - great stuff! Some service guys go so far as to save it when they drain a clean system and re-inject it. I doubt if it's worth the trouble, but maybe...

If you drain one and the water is brown that means it's still corroding and you need to find out why. All that brown is your boiler and pipes and pumps in iron oxide powder form.  As someone earlier said, leaks or any other reason for getting fresh oxygenated water into the system starts the corrosion process all over again.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Futz, do you use Oatey #5 flux?


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> Futz, do you use Oatey #5 flux?


No. This stuff or similar:









It's probably pretty similar to Oatey #5.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

futz said:


> No. This stuff or similar:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The reason I asked is because the joints look great, like they were soldered with the older style flux (non-water soluble). Around the year 1999 or 2000 the codes here changed, mandating us to use water-soluble flux. When water-soluble flux is used, the joints don't look shiny, they tend to look darker and turn green if you don't clean 'em up.


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## TDB (Jun 25, 2008)

that air scoop requires 18 inches of horizontal pipe going into it to work correctly. Most of the time an air scoop installed this way will not work at all. Give it 18" and they work great...

is that a 203 or 204? What is this going to heat?


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## TDB (Jun 25, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> The reason I asked is because the joints look great, like they were soldered with the older style flux (non-water soluble). Around the year 1999 or 2000 the codes here changed, mandating us to use water-soluble flux. When water-soluble flux is used, the joints don't look shiny, they tend to look darker and turn green if you don't clean 'em up.


this is a nonpotable boiler (cast iron exchanger) so you can use real flux and 50/50 solder if you like. I'd go 95/5 though... water flux is a joke... no where near as good as my cold weather acid flux.


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## Ishmael (Dec 9, 2009)

TDB said:


> that air scoop requires 18 inches of horizontal pipe going into it to work correctly. Most of the time an air scoop installed this way will not work at all. Give it 18" and they work great...


I wasn't going to say it! It is good-looking work, but what you just pointed out is why I like to use a $pirovent (that, and I just think they do a much better job of scrubbing the air out).


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

TDB said:


> that air scoop requires 18 inches of horizontal pipe going into it to work correctly. Most of the time an air scoop installed this way will not work at all. Give it 18" and they work great...
> 
> is that a 203 or 204? What is this going to heat?





Ishmael said:


> I wasn't going to say it! It is good-looking work, but what you just pointed out is why I like to use a $pirovent (that, and I just think they do a much better job of scrubbing the air out).


While it would be real nice to give it 18" if you had room, they work just fine my way. Been doing it like that forever and I ain't gonna change.

This is a smallish spec house and Spirovent or even the cheaper B&G spiro-style air eliminator just isn't in the budget. Can't use champagne in a beer house.  The air scoop will do the job just fine.

What means this "203 or 204"? Oh! You mean the boiler? It's a 202XNC.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

TDB said:


> this is a nonpotable boiler (cast iron exchanger) so you can use real flux and 50/50 solder if you like. I'd go 95/5 though... water flux is a joke... no where near as good as my cold weather acid flux.


Illinois use to let us use 50/50 on DWV. Not anymore. It's bad, I'm an inspector and don't know if water soluble flux is mandatory yet.


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## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

futz said:


> While it would be real nice to give it 18" if you had room, they work just fine my way. Been doing it like that forever and I ain't gonna change.
> 
> 
> > Futz, so tell me again - is that 20 years expierience, or 1 year 20 times? Or maybe 2 years, 10 times?


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Scott K said:


> Futz, so tell me again - is that 20 years expierience, or 1 year 20 times? Or maybe 2 years, 10 times?


Hey Mr. Wonderful. :jester: How about you post some good pics (no blurry phone-cam shots please) of your marvelous gold-plated boilers for us to pick at.

Whenever I talk to other plumbers I very often get this kind of "I'm the greatest plumber ever, and I only use the most perfect materials, and you should do it exactly like I do because I'm so great... blah blah blah..." bluster. Lots of bluster. But pretty often when I have a look at their jobs I find that their work is just more of the same slop you see everywhere. It's good enough, usually, but mostly nothing special. Some of it is horrible. A very small percentage is really nice.

So if your stuff is so incredibly all-fired great, where's the pics!? Put up or shut up. Pics or it didn't happen. :laughing: I won't be hard on ya - if it's awesome work I'll freely admit it. I love to see that kind of work, but it is rare.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Installed and fired up. House is nice and toasty. Just doing some final fine tuning today, so the door and aquastat lid are off.



















And for all of you who don't believe it's possible, that air scoop, with a 3-1/2" nipple ahead of it, purged the entire system absolutely clean of air on its own. The gasfitter, I think urged on by the floor guy, gasfit the boiler and turned it on while I was elsewhere for a couple days. I had it full of water but not properly purged (just a super quicky rough purge - at least two zones were totally full of air and stuck still) or adjusted - just random factory settings on all aquastats. Came back and found the boiler running and the house hot!  "Oh! Dude! Don't do that!!! Call me before you turn on an unadjusted boiler!" :furious: I was rather pissed off - there's a chance, however slim, that it could have killed itself. Anyway, no harm done.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

futz said:


> This is being installed in a spec house, starting Monday. Doing all this work (a day's work, including pick up) in the shop just makes more sense than dragging all out to the job and doing it. In the shop not only can I get a decent coffee when I want one, but if/when I run out of things I just pull the door closed and go to the supplier. On the job I'd have to pack things up so they don't get stolen.


NICE WORK
Why didnt you put an isolation valve at at the expansion tank and I here they only allow water feed at return never saw it between scoop and exp. tank


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

jjbex said:


> Illinois use to let us use 50/50 on DWV. Not anymore. It's bad, I'm an inspector and don't know if water soluble flux is mandatory yet.


 
Not mandatory. YET


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> NICE WORK
> Why didnt you put an isolation valve at at the expansion tank?


I don't waste the money and the vertical space. The boiler/boiler loop is SO simple and quick to isolate, drain and repurge that it just isn't worth it. Chances are extremely good that when you're changing the exp tank you're going to want to change the air vent on the scoop anyway, and sometimes if they've let things go badly, the BFP, fill valve and pressure relief too. I do enough service to know what's needed and what's a waste of money in terms of extra service valves. If this was a much bigger, fancier job I might do all the extra frills, but it's a ground floor only radiant system in a spec house - there will be no air problems and it's trivially easy to service without the extras.



> and I here they only allow water feed at return never saw it between scoop and exp. tank


Feeding right at the expansion tank is the optimum location according to much smarter people than me (Was it Holohan? Maybe - I can't remember). I take their advice. You want to feed at "the zero point".

If I remember this correctly, feeding the return will get you excessively high system pressure. I read the article a long time ago, so I can't remember if that's correct or not.


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