# Let's play what's the solution to this problem



## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

PROBLEM: the client's toilets back up rather frequently. Client purchased an auger and clears blockage. We were called when client had shoulder surgery and couldn't operate auger.
-- first floor toilet sees most usage, and usually is the one that backs up
-- second floor toilet has backed up with usage
-- primarily one user
-- second floor toilet backed up recently when used by grandchild

FACTS:
-- three bathrooms, one on top of another. Basement half bathroom, first floor full bathroom (toilet, lav, shower), second floor full bathroom (toilet, lav tub).
-- all toilets appear to be in good working order
-- plumbing is cast iron and is to code and in good working condition
-- main stack and building drain and main sewer have been video inspected, including the main vent serving all toilets. all open and in good condition
-- first floor toilet was a Toto, it was relocated upstairs when the first floor bathroom was remodeled, in general it has worked well in the past, but has experienced issues from time to time (but is not used frequently, one of the issues was with the grandchild)
-- first floor toilet was changed to a nicer Kohler toilet, worked well for a while
-- we changed first floor toilet (where problems usually occurred) to a new Kohler 1.6 Cimmaron. Client has since had problems with this toilet as well.
-- we pulled the new toilet and have inspected it as well, no obstructions in trap way
-- blockages can be cleared with an auger

Thoughts?

--Will


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

Camera the lines


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Obese and/or sickly customer.


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## Green Country (Mar 6, 2009)

I had one customer that was on a lot of medication and he crapped pop can size rocks. We installed a toto, which helped for a while, but even that couldn't keep up when he got worse. I told them they would just have to let it soak for a while and also bent up a coat hangar so they could break it up.


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## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

Cajunhiker said:


> Camera the lines


already did that. they are clean and in good shape


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

woberkrom said:


> PROBLEM: the client's toilets back up rather frequently. Client purchased an auger and clears blockage. We were called when client had shoulder surgery and couldn't operate auger.
> -- first floor toilet sees most usage, and usually is the one that backs up
> -- second floor toilet has backed up with usage
> -- primarily one user
> ...


Either you are gonna have to install and find some older 3.5 gal per flush toilets or you are gonna have to go with the pressure assist toilets so it can bust the fecal matter up,you don't say if they put a lot of toilet paper in the commodes,nor did you say if they are on septic or city sewer,septic tank might be full and leaching out slowly but I doubt it


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Like I saw on countertop yesterday


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## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

Sorry.

City sewer. Open and in good shape.

To clarify, I really need to identify the source of the problem first. I don't want to say what I think/know it is just yet. I am looking more for consensus about what the problem is and then the solution.

I have considered the pressure assist toilet though, and that may be in the cards.


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## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

Debo22 said:


> Like I saw on countertop yesterday


It's not wipes. Client only uses paper products. Brand changes, because client is buying what is on sale, but its always paper.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

woberkrom said:


> PROBLEM: the client's toilets back up rather frequently. Client purchased an auger and clears blockage. We were called when client had shoulder surgery and couldn't operate auger.
> -- first floor toilet sees most usage, and usually is the one that backs up
> -- second floor toilet has backed up with usage
> -- primarily one user
> ...


First you sure the customer is a client, maybe they are patients??
Second it always opens with a auger that alone says it's a toilet problem unless you are using an extended auger. Look for not enough water in the tanks, wrong flush-balls being used. Too much paper or colored paper [the dyes in some papers hold the clump together.] Jet holes blocked because toilets are not flushed all the time. 13-14 year old grand kids puberty age they have stools that look like an arm. Question can you plunge them open? How about wipes that they say are flush-able and this trade knows better.


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## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> First you sure the customer is a client, maybe they are patients??
> Second it always opens with a auger that alone says it's a toilet problem unless you are using an extended auger. Look for not enough water in the tanks, wrong flush-balls being used. Too much paper or colored paper [the dyes in some papers hold the clump together.] Jet holes blocked because toilets are not flushed all the time. 13-14 year old grand kids puberty age they have stools that look like an arm. Question can you plunge them open? How about wipes that they say are flush-able and this trade knows better.


-- Not wipes.
-- problem is clear able with an auger
-- all the toilets are right as far as parts and other considerations


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

I'm sure you would have noticed.. You said they remodeled. Did they put one of those 3" fitting flanges in?


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

Check the jets, I'll bet they are built up with hard water deposits


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## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

89plumbum said:


> I'm sure you would have noticed.. You said they remodeled. Did they put one of those 3" fitting flanges in?


flange is good


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## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

Fatpat said:


> Check the jets, I'll bet they are built up with hard water deposits


jets are good


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

If everything is good as you state then there is only two things left, the size of the turds and how much paper are they using.


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## CT18 (Sep 18, 2012)

How about fittings from stack to flange.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Blocked vent?


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## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

CT18 said:


> How about fittings from stack to flange.


they are good


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

the kid stuffing toys in the toilet..and as they move around they block and dont block...


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

That is very simple.....
someone in the house drops a turd the size of a tennis ball. or larger......

I have seen the horror before...it almost brings me to tears just to think of passing something out of me that large.....

They probably keep an auger in the home for that very reason

They are just too embarrassed to admit it and would rather blame the toilets over the culprit in the house whos nickname should be "turd-zilla"


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## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

dhal22 said:


> Blocked vent?


main vent is open

the vent for the first floor toilet is basically inaccessible, but looking at the condition of everything else...I can't think it is an issue


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## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> the kid stuffing toys in the toilet..and as they move around they block and dont block...


Only one person lives in the house. I think the grandchild visits once a year.


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## KoleckeINC (Oct 22, 2011)

Suck it up and get a Caroma


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

...


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

I had an elderly customer years ago with the same exact issue. Videoed all the drains and vents, rebuilt the stools, replaced the stools... Turns out it was all because of the meds he was on was causing large, HARD, bowel movements. He finally fessed up after I couldn't get one of the stools open with my auger and pulled and rolled it just to dig his clay-like turd out of the trap with a spoon he provided. He spent a nice chunk of change with us.

I remember what part of town he's in, roughly, can't remember his name for the life of me, but I remember his PITA dog's name... Jessie. Full sized poodle, no training and hopped up on speed. That stupid dog would be up and down the stairs twenty times in the time it would take me to walk up them, almost knocking me over every time.

My money's on massive BMs.


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## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

OpenSights said:


> I had an elderly customer years ago with the same exact issue. ...
> 
> My money's on massive BMs.


This is basically where I am at with it as well. I didn't want to color anybody else's thoughts with my own diagnosis.

I'm having a hard time making the client understand it isn't an issue that can be solved by replacing pipes or toilets.

I've been pretty direct with the client, but before I get any more direct, I wanted to make sure I hadn't overlooked something.

I appreciate the input from you guys.

--Will


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Did you pull the W/C off the floor? Maybe the wax ring was one of those 'kant leak' with that awful plastic ring; when someone augers a W/C with those 'kant leak' wax seals, sometimes the auger hooks the plastic flange and moves it so that it is blocking the passageway. 

Charge him to pull and re-set the offending W/C. If that seal is alright, then I would be of the opinion that the customer is passing large stools and that is why the clogs are occurring.


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## wharfrat (Nov 1, 2014)

Definitely needs stool softener. Seen it many times as a med side effect.


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## KoleckeINC (Oct 22, 2011)

From what I've read the Caroma has a 4" trapway. Sounds like a winner to me.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

http://www.amazon.com/Compare-Stool...qid=1455799930&sr=1-1&keywords=stool+softener

buy a case for the home owner........


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## paultheplumber1 (May 1, 2014)

We've had something similar happen to us a couple times a few years ago. For some reason when ever we set a newer toilet( toto's at the time) on an older mostly cast closet flanges, that the wax rings we were using were too thick. We would have to modify the wax ring to prevent this from happening. We've since stopped using toto for other reasons and haven't had the issues since.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

You stated this is an older cast system. With the newer WC's venting is critical. May still be to code, but to far from a 4" stack on the top floor, vent on the lower level not rising vertically.

Have seen this multiple times when changing out old WC's for the 1.5 gal flush.

Stool softeners may help, if that's not the case (since you mentioned a grand child, unless they have something in the WC trap).

Have also seen a plastic lid act like a flapper in the WC trap, hand auger goes by, water goes by but solids get caught up.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

The ONLY purpose of a vent is to prevent the trap from being siphoned . As long as that house has one good vent and doesn't have any bellies a vent wouldn't be the problem. That's it.


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## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

justme said:


> The ONLY purpose of a vent is to prevent the trap from being siphoned . As long as that house has one good vent and doesn't have any bellies a vent wouldn't be the problem. That's it.


We may be talking across one another, but vents work to equalize the air pressure in the dwv system.

When a toilet flushes, or water falls from a height sufficient to create positive pressure in front of it, the venting allows for that air to be directed away from trap seals.

At the end of a drainage cycle, the vent will in turn allow air back to the trap in most fixtures to break the siphon action.

In the case of of the toilet, the vent serves both purposes, but the toilet itself should siphon during its operation (at least in the majority of toilets). Theoretically, the vent for the toilet is facilitating the siphon action, at least on a toilet, by allowing the air to escape in front of the flush.

At least, that's my understanding of it.

As for this particular case, the vents, as site conditions allowed were inspected and are open and in good condition.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

woberkrom said:


> We may be talking across one another, but vents work to equalize the air pressure in the dwv system.
> 
> When a toilet flushes, or water falls from a height sufficient to create positive pressure in front of it, the venting allows for that air to be directed away from trap seals.
> 
> ...


I stand by what I posted above. We have severely kicked this particular horse to death. Not doing it again.:no:


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

justme said:


> The ONLY purpose of a vent is to prevent the trap from being siphoned . As long as that house has one good vent and doesn't have any bellies a vent wouldn't be the problem. That's it.



Dude you need to study more. They also prevent back-pressure on traps, but today the focus is on siphoning.:yes:

One vent per house, wow, study, study, study. Here is some study material for Ya....... http://http://www.plumbingpros.com/pdf/dwvents.pdf
Oh wait here is another, now pay close attention to "The relationship of air & plumbing systems........ http://https://philadelphiaplumbing...r-venting-can-actually-destroy-a-toilet-trap/

1) siphon
2) venting gases out
3) pressure against traps

Vent flat- water may prohibit the air draw
Vent small - restricts the required volume of air inhibits flush, especially with 3" waste and water savers.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

GAN said:


> Dude you need to study more. They also prevent back-pressure on traps, but today the focus is on siphoning.:yes:
> 
> One vent per house, wow, study, study, study. Here is some study material for Ya....... http://http://www.plumbingpros.com/pdf/dwvents.pdf
> Oh wait here is another, now pay close attention to "The relationship of air & plumbing systems........ http://https://philadelphiaplumbing...r-venting-can-actually-destroy-a-toilet-trap/
> ...


I don't need to study about plumbing. The sole purpose of the vent is to protect the trap seal, nice try mr inspector.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

You should probably read your own links lol


901.2 Trap seal protection. The plumbing system shall be provided with a system of vent piping that will permit the admission or emission of air so that the seal of any fixture trap shall not be subjected to a pneumatic pressure differential of more than 1 inch of water column (249 Pa).


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## ruddiger (Jul 21, 2009)

Where I live we have hard water... 11.7 I believe, which has an effect on many toilets building calcium around the main jet but also in the trap way of the toilet. Muriatic acid removes it. Probably not the problem but that's my 2 bits worth.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

justme said:


> You should probably read your own links lol
> 
> 
> 901.2 Trap seal protection. The plumbing system shall be provided with a system of vent piping that will permit the admission or emission of air so that the seal of any fixture trap shall not be subjected to a pneumatic pressure differential of more than 1 inch of water column (249 Pa).


Already did, along with basic physics and a few engineering articles, only part of the total, ya know like solvent cement is not good without primer, don't chew your finger nails, pay day is Friday, night proceeds day or the other way around. Mr. plumber I guess.

Gotcha to read some though huh.......


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## plumberinlaw (Jan 13, 2010)

I just saw a commercial for a opiod induced constipation medication. When you have eliminated all the possibilities it must be the impossible. (stole that from somewhere)


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

plumberinlaw said:


> ...(stole that from somewhere)


Spock


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> Did you pull the W/C off the floor? Maybe the wax ring was one of those 'kant leak' with that awful plastic ring; when someone augers a W/C with those 'kant leak' wax seals, sometimes the auger hooks the plastic flange and moves it so that it is blocking the passageway.
> 
> Charge him to pull and re-set the offending W/C. If that seal is alright, then I would be of the opinion that the customer is passing large stools and that is why the clogs are occurring.


I'm with Tom on checking this . Those plastic horned flanges have been a bad culprit many times . 

I don't know fellas, in saving the world with the 1.6 gallon flush toilet I think all we've really done is made ourselves richer with service work. I never thought the Gerber avalanche would stop up But have had a few customers that do it regularly. Each time they tell of a spouse or offspring that craps the size of a football ! Some folks insides just work like that I guess, they need to learn how to adjust we can't do it for them.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Cal said:


> I don't know fellas, in saving the world with the 1.6 gallon flush toilet I think all we've really done is made ourselves richer with service work. I never thought the Gerber avalanche would stop up But have had a few customers that do it regularly. Each time they tell of a spouse or offspring that craps the size of a football ! Some folks insides just work like that I guess, they need to learn how to adjust we can't do it for them.


Its illegal to even have a 1.6 gallon toilet shipped here. We're down to 1.28 and they're talking getting down to 1 gallon.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

As gross as it is you know the discussion you will have to have with them. I have seen it a lot with older people. It can be vary embarrassing, the best thing I have found to make the talk easier is just act like it's no big deal, don't let them feel like they're the only one. They will ask if the toilet has an issue or if I think the plumbing has an issue, I will say no, just a "regular" clog, try flushing before and after paper and you should be good, with these darn low flush toilets you sometimes have to flush several times....Then throw in some comment about water regs being a joke to steer the convo elsewhere before they get embarrassed.

I have found the most important parts of my job are being neat, clean, and explaining things properly to the customer. Snaking a line or fixing a leak is easy compared to a rust stain or telling someone they have hard poop with a straight face.


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## cevans (Jan 5, 2015)

My daughter had hard stool for a very long time and constently stoped up my toilet one day I was digging a sewer line and was not going to be home till late my old lady took i apon her self to clear drain .... she began to flush hot water down the toilet and in just a few minutes the stool had soffened enough to flow through the toilet. i have large trap toilets and she still stoped them up.


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## thumper (Aug 19, 2011)

What was the outcome to this? I would ask the customer to call after one of the toilets got
plugged and have them do nothing to try and clear it. Pull the toilet amd check exactly whats going on...
Is drain clogged or is the blockage in the toilet?


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## panther (Oct 27, 2010)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> the kid stuffing toys in the toilet..and as they move around they block and dont block...


Had customer flush their drivers license. Augured toilet and would flush perfect. Two days later it would clog again. Pulled toilet and found it. It was acting like a valve moving with the flow. Auger would go around it.


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## panther (Oct 27, 2010)

I have a client that has the same issue. Elongated kohler. Clogs all the time. Found out he just has big doo doo's.


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## JohnnieSqueeze (Mar 23, 2016)

Condoms


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

justme said:


> The ONLY purpose of a vent is to prevent the trap from being siphoned . As long as that house has one good vent and doesn't have any bellies a vent wouldn't be the problem. That's it.


What about a stack vent or a vent stack.. only in ny are they venting a house trap. In the rest of America the main stack vent or vent stack vent is not venting a trap. So not all vents are to maintain a trap seal. Vents are mainly necessitated to maintain a trap seal. This code has multiple aspects to it. 1 we have discussed the "trap seal" 2nd is once there is not enough vent on a drain line it will form a suction and slow down the water in the pipe and cause a consistant cloggs over time...3rd is on much larger job of multiple stories you can create a water plug the just sits suspended in a pipe. Like not taking your finger off the back of a straw. The water will just sit there. Most of the time this can not happen as 90g of plumbing goes to standard fixtures. Like toilets, sinks, and showers.. but the remaining 10% can be different in design and have direct connections with semantics. That when closed if it did not have a vent would now be completely vent free and now we have a water plug situation....


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## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

And to think the vent stack or stack vent is just a tie in for all the ondividual vemts... that is not the case. It is only by standard practices and ease of installation that the individual vents tie back into the stack. Each fixture can be individually vented thorough the roof... you would still need one 3inch stack vent or vent stack up through the entire structure.


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