# Noritz 931 Tankless Errors



## SewerRatz

I been deliming these units for the last three years with no issues. This time around I noticed there where some error codes stored. A little info on the install here before I list the error codes.

There are five 931m-DV-ASME units installed with a SC-201-6M controller installed. So now as to the error codes:

Unit #1 has two codes #73(improper circuit board setting) and #11(
Ignition Failure)
Unit #2 one error code #56 (CCP Valve abnormality)
Unit #3 one error code #56 (CCP Valve abnormality)
Unit #4 no error codes
Unit #5 one error code #56 (CCP Valve abnormality)

Noritz Tech suppurt helped me with unit #1 we figured the cicurt board is bad since the flame detection rods where still good and clean. So they are sending out the new board.

As for the error code 56 they told me the unit is either limed up or the flow control valve has debris in it causing it not to open properly. I delimed these heaters with out any issues checked the control valve and they are clean. The service manual does mention about checking that the CCP valve is working properly with the system controller. Not to sure how to go about this. I am also wondering since the unit one has a bad circuit board and it is the unit with the system controler in it can it be causing the error 56 in the other three units? 

After the last couple weeks I have had, my brain is mush, I am not sure if I am overlooking something.


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## Gettinit

Sent you something in your inbox.


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## pilot light

This circuit board bullcrap sucks many times it is not the board! Never had issues with a noritz but the board diagnosis is weak . You call Navien and regardless of the issue its a board upgrade now! Have dicussed gas valve issues with them until I told them I would fix it with out them and then I strip a gas valve out of an old one and refired it, then the heat exchanger leaked and they replaced. Got in **** from navien for doing so, told them I was a gasfitter who has a customer and if they would like to here from the purchaser who was fuming I would pass them the phone. Long story short the call center is crap, unless it is hiring gasfitters not cue card readers!


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## SewerRatz

Oh in this case with heater #1 it is the board. The circuit for the flame sensing rod had char marks around the chip.

The other three heaters are the ones I am stumped with the #56 code. When I got go back to install the new board I am going to ser if those other three heater will run on their own without be connected to the system controller.

Sent from my Motorola Photon using Plumbing Zone app for Droid.


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## victoryplbaz

If they were Rheems id say replace all the circuit boards. They for some reason will throw a BS code and its a circuit board issue. Only installed a few Noritz since i quit installing rheems junk. But i have not had any issues..well except for HO unpluging the unit once.


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## Gettinit

pilot light said:


> This circuit board bullcrap sucks many times it is not the board! Never had issues with a noritz but the board diagnosis is weak . You call Navien and regardless of the issue its a board upgrade now! Have dicussed gas valve issues with them until I told them I would fix it with out them and then I strip a gas valve out of an old one and refired it, then the heat exchanger leaked and they replaced. Got in **** from navien for doing so, told them I was a gasfitter who has a customer and if they would like to here from the purchaser who was fuming I would pass them the phone. Long story short the call center is crap, unless it is hiring gasfitters not cue card readers!


You must not see many Rheem's. Green capacitors, whoever manufactured them, or spec them caused a lot of grief. They are actually paying still, even labor cost's because it is such an issue.


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## pilot light

Gettinit said:


> You must not see many Rheem's. Green capacitors, whoever manufactured them, or spec them caused a lot of grief. They are actually paying still, even labor cost's because it is such an issue.


 Went to the seminar the protective heat sheild around the heat exchanger good god!:blink:


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## MarkToo

Swap control wiring between the unit that isn't throwing a code and another that is and see if the error follows the unit or the wiring.


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## Surfing Plumber

Installed Noritz for years, never had any problems...Just need to make sure the water is treated if it's hard water.... Noritz has the best quality units out on the market


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## Gettinit

Surfing Plumber said:


> Installed Noritz for years, never had any problems...Just need to make sure the water is treated if it's hard water.... Noritz has the best quality units out on the market


The job dictates which brand I use. They all have their draw backs.


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## SewerRatz

A quick update finally tracked down what was causing the 56 codes. The phone support guy told me to check the flow sensors to ensure they are spinning freely. They were just fine. 
Then he had me take out the flow control valve at the very top of the heater attached to the outlet of the heat exchanger. After I took it out he told me to take the valve apart and ensure nothing was jamming the valve. So I took it apart and carefully removed all the pieces, and found no debris or lime in the valve, put it back together and called him with my findings. So now he was stumped... So 3 months later they finally send a Noritz Tech out to help me trouble shoot.

Eric from Noritz comes out picks a heater, and disconnects it from the multi system controller. Then he closes the hot water outlet service valve, and opens the T&P valve it flowed water for 45 seconds and then went to a trickle. He is like AH-HA the heat exchanger is either clogged or the flow control valve is clogged. 

I asked him why there was water flow at first. He said that is due to the main flow control valve being closed and the bypass valve being open. After the water flows for a little bit the circuit board sends a single to the bypass flow control valve to close and one to the main flow control valve to open.

So he drains the heater down and takes out the main flow control valve. He ensures it is in the open mode and tries to blow through it, and cannot. So he says it is clogged solid. He then takes it apart, removing the servo motor, then unscrewing the top plate of the valve which the spring pushes up as he unscrews it. Due to the spring pushing up he had a puzzled look on his face. He then pulls all the inner parts out and say wow I never seen this before. Normally the spring and all these parts are one unit like a cartridge. But this one is broke and that’s why the valve was not opening properly. He went to his car grabbed a new valve put it in the heater, turned it on and it works perfectly now. 

The trouble was the phone tech did not tell me the parts where supposed to be like a cartridge, and all in one piece. Go figure. Eric called the tech support guy I was dealing with, had a few words with him and proceeded to order me up new servo flow control valves for the other heaters.


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## rjbphd

SewerRatz said:


> A quick update finally tracked down what was causing the 56 codes. The phone support guy told me to check the flow sensors to ensure they are spinning freely. They were just fine.
> Then he had me take out the flow control valve at the very top of the heater attached to the outlet of the heat exchanger. After I took it out he told me to take the valve apart and ensure nothing was jamming the valve. So I took it apart and carefully removed all the pieces, and found no debris or lime in the valve, put it back together and called him with my findings. So now he was stumped... So 3 months later they finally send a Noritz Tech out to help me trouble shoot.
> 
> Eric from Noritz comes out picks a heater, and disconnects it from the multi system controller. Then he closes the hot water outlet service valve, and opens the T&P valve it flowed water for 45 seconds and then went to a trickle. He is like AH-HA the heat exchanger is either clogged or the flow control valve is clogged.
> 
> I asked him why there was water flow at first. He said that is due to the main flow control valve being closed and the bypass valve being open. After the water flows for a little bit the circuit board sends a single to the bypass flow control valve to close and one to the main flow control valve to open.
> 
> So he drains the heater down and takes out the main flow control valve. He ensures it is in the open mode and tries to blow through it, and cannot. So he says it is clogged solid. He then takes it apart, removing the servo motor, then unscrewing the top plate of the valve which the spring pushes up as he unscrews it. Due to the spring pushing up he had a puzzled look on his face. He then pulls all the inner parts out and say wow I never seen this before. Normally the spring and all these parts are one unit like a cartridge. But this one is broke and that&#146;s why the valve was not opening properly. He went to his car grabbed a new valve put it in the heater, turned it on and it works perfectly now.
> 
> The trouble was the phone tech did not tell me the parts where supposed to be like a cartridge, and all in one piece. Go figure. Eric called the tech support guy I was dealing with, had a few words with him and proceeded to order me up new servo flow control valves for the other heaters.


 Thanks for the worthly tips, Ratz!


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## SewerRatz

Well the new flow control valves came yesterday. I am off to replace the last of them to get the rest of their heaters up and running.

I talked to Eric, he told me I should try to get to one of his advanced classes, he goes more into teaching proper trouble shooting. When I hear what the dates are I will post it up here for those that are in the Chicago area that might be interested.


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## Gettinit

SewerRatz said:


> Well the new flow control valves came yesterday. I am off to replace the last of them to get the rest of their heaters up and running.
> 
> I talked to Eric, he told me I should try to get to one of his advanced classes, he goes more into teaching proper trouble shooting. When I hear what the dates are I will post it up here for those that are in the Chicago area that might be interested.


I hear the "advanced" classes mean real classes instead of their sales pitches by their salesman. You should do it, I have heard good things.


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## SewerRatz

Gettinit said:


> I hear the "advanced" classes mean real classes instead of their sales pitches by their salesman. You should do it, I have heard good things.


There are three levels of classes which I took all three. First one is sales pitch, second level is sizing and installation and basic maintenance. The third one was basic troubleshooting, and taking the whole heater apart and putting it back together. Thing is the guy that taught the third level when I took the class, did not have us take apart the servo controlled valves. He did have us take apart the flow sensor and taught us how to make sure you out the impeller back in the right way.

Eric, says his class will go more into detail of troubleshooting, using the remote controller to read the different systems of the heater to help narrow down any issues. Like when the 56 code, he had the control set to look at what position the step motor was in on the servo on the main flow control valve and the bypass valve. It was reporting that the Step motor was in full open on the flow control which means we should of had a flow out of the T&P when opened. But we didn't have any flow. So he was thinking something was clogging the flow control valve or the heat exchanger was clogged solid.

I learned more in the hour I was with him on the job than I did in the three classes I took.


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## SewerRatz

So here is a picture of the part that failed.


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## Tankless

Very good. That would have been a pain in the arse for me too!
I learned a long time ago when I flush the units is to let them fire when u plug in ur pump then gut the gas. The bypass will close sending ur descale solution through the xchanger.
Even doing that you would have had a hard time seeing that problem. Very rare...Wha it the SS spring that snapped and jammed up?

BTW, good to see all you guys doing gods work on here!!


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## easttexasplumb

I miss the days when the problem was the thermocoupling.


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## Mississippiplum

easttexasplumb said:


> I miss the days when the problem was the thermocoupling.


Lmao thats the truth

Sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## Don The Plumber

SewerRatz said:


> So here is a picture of the part that failed.
> 
> View attachment 19880


 So Ron, let me ask, how many total hrs did it take for you to figure out this problem? Now be honest. I'm talking total time with phone calls, & trips out to the job, finding & replacing part, & so on. How long was this customer without hot water? How much profit did you make on this one? How much did your customer lose, for their major inconvenience?

When I hear stuff like this, I just can't see how anyone thinks tankless is the way to go. My customers would not be my customers very long.


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## Surfing Plumber

Don The Plumber said:


> So Ron, let me ask, how many total hrs did it take for you to figure out this problem? Now be honest. I'm talking total time with phone calls, & trips out to the job, finding & replacing part, & so on. How long was this customer without hot water? How much profit did you make on this one? How much did your customer lose, for their major inconvenience?
> 
> When I hear stuff like this, I just can't see how anyone thinks tankless is the way to go. My customers would not be my customers very long.


well Don, it is not really the fault of the machine when the city supplies hard water?....So why is the rest of the world using tankless when we are still using 1850 technology like a tank water heater. SewerRatz learned from this challenge and he is now more knowledgeable when it comes to installing and servicing tankless. Furthermore, SewerRatz knows to install a water softener or a scale filter to combat hard water problem and this type of corrosion won't happen next time. 

You can evolve and adapt to new technology and learn from things and make the next installation better or you can just install a regular tank water heater, which doesn't take much brain power or technical skill to perform... The future is in your hands


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## Surfing Plumber

Gettinit said:


> The job dictates which brand I use. They all have their draw backs.


There is no drawbacks if the tankless is installed correctly. Right size gas line, right venting materials and treat the water if it is hard. It is very simple, might be a bit costly, but who wants hard water in their house or any business anyways?


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## Gettinit

Surfing Plumber said:


> There is no drawbacks if the tankless is installed correctly. Right size gas line, right venting materials and treat the water if it is hard. It is very simple, might be a bit costly, but who wants hard water in their house or any business anyways?


Would you want to try and run SS two stories through a roof when you can use PVC?....drawback if you only use Noritz.

Some brands have no problems keeping a full warranty even if you run a recirc through it....drawback

SS heat exchanger....won't go there but drawback.

I love how Rinnai vents their heaters. It is a drawback without this when there isn't enough combustion air. 

I would go on but.....I hope I made my point.


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## easttexasplumb

Surfing Plumber said:


> There is no drawbacks if the tankless is installed correctly. Right size gas line, right venting materials and treat the water if it is hard. It is very simple, might be a bit costly, but who wants hard water in their house or any business anyways?


Hard to sell a tankless and softener for 10 times what a tank costs, when the customer had a tank type that worked good for 30 years.


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## Gettinit

easttexasplumb said:


> Hard to sell a tankless and softener for 10 times what a tank costs, when the customer had a tank type that worked good for 30 years.


Big drawback.


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## plbgbiz

easttexasplumb said:


> Hard to sell a tankless and softener for 10 times what a tank costs, when the customer had a tank type that worked good for 30 years.





Gettinit said:


> Big drawback.


"THE" drawback. 

In most residential applications it is like buying a battery powered car. Sounds cool but it makes no sense.....or cents.


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## Surfing Plumber

Gettinit said:


> Would you want to try and run SS two stories through a roof when you can use PVC?....drawback if you only use Noritz.
> 
> Some brands have no problems keeping a full warranty even if you run a recirc through it....drawback
> 
> SS heat exchanger....won't go there but drawback.
> 
> I love how Rinnai vents their heaters. It is a drawback without this when there isn't enough combustion air.
> 
> I would go on but.....I hope I made my point.



Hmmm. I just installed 5 Noritz NRC last week and I used 3" PVC... If you don't know, now you know

one of the 5 installations had a recirc system, I put a timer on there, retained the full warranty... hmm if you don't know again, now you know

I don't know the point you are trying to make with the Rinnai venting? Are you saying Noritz can not be vented? I am confused...


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## Surfing Plumber

easttexasplumb said:


> Hard to sell a tankless and softener for 10 times what a tank costs, when the customer had a tank type that worked good for 30 years.



I don't know how much you are charging to install a tankless. but I agree, it is 2 to 3 times more expensive than a tank. But if you don't explain and educate the homeowners, and just basically tell them a price, of course they will say NO THANKS! 

I would have to agree to a certain degree that tankless is not for everyone, these days, the economy is tough and people are struggling to stay afloat, for those people, there is no need to break the bank. However, for other homeowners, who wants endless hot water, space saving, energy saving and all the benefits of tankless water heater, by all means educate them and have them make the decision. 

Like I said already, even a monkey can install a tank water heater and if this industry is going to thrive and follows the trend and uses the latest technology, then tankless is the way to go. Be better, challenge yourself in both installations and sales. Learn to evolve and adapt. We are not cavemen anymore

P.S. Good luck buying a tank water heater today that will last 30 years......


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## Will

Not many tankless water heaters can even supply the demand of the average American home. Most are going to take atleast 2 tankless water heaters. That same home can work fine with one 50 gal water heater. 

The cost to reroute the water lines, gas lines, and new vents makes that tankless like a Rolls-Royce or two, when all your family needed was the Chrysler 300.


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## plbgbiz

Surfing Plumber said:


> ...Good luck buying a tank water heater today that will last 30 years......


With a few hundred dollars of service annually along with a new anode rod on each visit i think I'd take that bet.

The way a tankless makes it thirty years is because of the ongoing expense of servicing it. A good babysitter is what they require.

Not saying it is right, wrong, better, or worse. Just more trouble than most consumers (and plumbers) in this "set it and forget it" world are willing to put up with.


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## Will

I'm all for better technology, but tankless ain't better than a tank. Simple as that.


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## AWWGH

easttexasplumb said:


> Hard to sell a tankless and softener for 10 times what a tank costs, when the customer had a tank type that worked good for 30 years.


Fine fine fine. I'll sell them the softener and you sell them the tankless. Deal?


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## Don The Plumber

Seems like whenever the argument about tank heaters vs. tankless heaters comes up,for residential use, the tankless guys always think that the only reason the plumbers that install tanks, keep doing it, is because, as was said, a monkey could do it, & we're just stupid.

The reason I do it, is because it is economical for the customer, fits their needs, they don't have to take a 2nd mortgage to pay for it, they rarely, if ever, have to service it, & it is profitable for me, cuz I'm in & out, with rarely, if ever a call back.

If a monkey could do it, then why does it require a permit?

The venting & gas pipe are huge obstacles on tankless, especially on replacements. If I have an existing chimney, I can't use it on a tankless. Instead of a couple nipples & ftgs to reconnect gas, I gotta run a whole new larger size gasline. And I'm sure you high tech tankless guys, with all this up to date knowledge, would not run a crap flex pipe to this Rolls Royce unit right?

The customers that I am accustomed to, don't care how their hot water gets there. The tanks provide them enough for their needs. Tank heater has fit their needs for decades. They don't want to be servicing & flushing & replacing parts every year. And you know the only way they find their tankless unit don't work, is when they gotta take a cold shower, before the work day. Yea thats gonna make for a happy customer. And if these units supposedly last 30 yrs, 3 tanks would still be cheaper in the long run. And in alot of cases, you would only go through 2 tanks in 30 yrs. JMHO

If I thought tankless was the cats meow, for my customers, I would install them, & learn all about them. I would put one in my own house, in a heartbeat. But for now, I just can't see the advantage for me, or my customers. Even the rich customers. Then on some of these tankless units, they want an electric water heater for storage, when there is a recirc line? That's crazy. Heck a 6 or 12 gal electric heater costs almost as much as a 40 gal nat draft, gas heater.
Then if ya want flow, just install 2 or 3 tankless units huh?


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## plbgbiz

I don't think tankless is all bad all the time. They certainly have their place when there is a need for an endless supply of hot water. 

It's not a fear of technology or the inability to be at that level. It just seems like a lot of extra steps and expense that is not always justified. 

Kinda like all the research and money NASA expended developing a pen that would write in zero gravity. Sometimes it's better to just stick with a pencil. 

No disrespect intended toward the tankless fans.


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## Don The Plumber

plbgbiz said:


> I don't think tankless is all bad all the time. They certainly have their place when there is a need for an endless supply of hot water.
> 
> It's not a fear of technology or the inability to be at that level. It just seems like a lot of extra steps and expense that is not always justified.
> 
> Kinda like all the research and money NASA expended developing a pen that would write in zero gravity. Sometimes it's better to just stick with a pencil.
> 
> No disrespect intended toward the tankless fans.


 No disrespect here either. Notice I said residential. I believe these tankless units make a good fit in some commercial applications. I'm not close minded about it. I have went to a couple classes on the Noritz unit. I installed the unit at my supply house, so they could show potential customers, a fully operational model.I just don't see the profit for me, or the benefit for the customer. I have bid a few tankless jobs, to sort of get more familiar with the units, but just like tank heaters, some of these guys take short cuts, & are willing to work for poverty wages. And in this economy, very few people are willing to spend extra on anything.


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## ZL700

30 years?
Too early to tell. Noritz has only been here 10, Takagi about 14, Rinnai the longest. Regarding semi-quality that's about it with any time installed in US, and the 2520 units are being replaced now, so, call it 15-20 years maintained?


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## SewerRatz

Tankless said:


> Very good. That would have been a pain in the arse for me too! I learned a long time ago when I flush the units is to let them fire when u plug in ur pump then gut the gas. The bypass will close sending ur descale solution through the xchanger.Even doing that you would have had a hard time seeing that problem. Very rare...Wha it the SS spring that snapped and jammed up? BTW, good to see all you guys doing gods work on here!!


The c-clip somehow popped loose. This caused the servo controlled valve not to open. This happened right after the deliming of the tankless units.



Don The Plumber said:


> So Ron, let me ask, how many total hrs did it take for you to figure out this problem? Now be honest. I'm talking total time with phone calls, & trips out to the job, finding & replacing part, & so on. How long was this customer without hot water? How much profit did you make on this one? How much did your customer lose, for their major inconvenience? When I hear stuff like this, I just can't see how anyone thinks tankless is the way to go. My customers would not be my customers very long.


In this case there were 5 units and when the problem first came about there were 3 units with the odd error code and one unit that would not stay lit. I got the parts for the one unit that was not staying lit the next day and that took an hour to replace the fried circuit board. So for one day they had one heater handling the whole load for the restaurant. The next day there were two heaters handling the load. So far total time invested is 2 hours including being on the phone with tech support.

What surprised me is the place was running pretty good with two heaters.


Now that it took Noritz almost 3 months to get me some help out here to troubleshoot was mostly a communication, and bad timing. I am lucky enough to have a main headquarters here in the Chicago area, but the two people that were able to help where either out of town or on a leave of albescence due to his wife having a baby. As long as they were getting hot water they were not overly worried.

Once Eric from Noritz was able to come to my job, he had the issue figured out within a hour and a half. So far total time is 3 1/2 hours. They mailed me the replacement parts for the other heaters now heater #1 started throwing the same error; luckily Eric got me some extra valves. Each heater took an hour to change the valve. (Would have been quicker if they were mounted at a normal height, not where the top of the box is nearly seven feet in the air) So when I went back with the new valves I was planning only on repairing two units since Eric fixed one when he came out to help me troubleshoot. So I ended up replacing three valves for a total of 3 more hours.

So my total time spent on troubleshooting these units and repairing them was 6 1/2 hours, all of it billed. Parts did not cost me or the customer anything since the heaters are still under warranty.


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## ZL700

Noritz has been shrinking in size over the years with their decline in sales, which includes fewer employees. Recently in Charlotte, they were not even present at the ASPE convention and show. Increased competition, flat sales growth and running unprofitable has taken its toll on many tankless companies. If AO Smith ends up totally buying Takagi, perhaps soon, it wouldn't surprise me if Bradford White made a bid for Noritz.


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## Surfing Plumber

plbgbiz said:


> With a few hundred dollars of service annually along with a new anode rod on each visit i think I'd take that bet.
> 
> The way a tankless makes it thirty years is because of the ongoing expense of servicing it. A good babysitter is what they require.
> 
> Not saying it is right, wrong, better, or worse. Just more trouble than most consumers (and plumbers) in this "set it and forget it" world are willing to put up with.



:confused1: uhhh....I was talking about good luck finding a TANK that will last 30 years.....a TANK water heater will last between 7 to 10 years these days. AGAIN, if the tankless is installed correctly, a minimal maintenance every 5 years is sufficient.


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## rjbphd

Surfing Plumber said:


> :confused1: uhhh....I was talking about good luck finding a TANK that will last 30 years.....a TANK water heater will last between 7 to 10 years these days. AGAIN, if the tankless is installed correctly, a minimal maintenance every 5 years is sufficient.


 Just replaced a tank water heater that I installed 12 years ago at a small school, reason for failure, scamtrol tank was never checked. I just got account back after other hacks got fired.


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## Gettinit

Surfing Plumber said:


> Hmmm. I just installed 5 Noritz NRC last week and I used 3" PVC... If you don't know, now you know
> 
> one of the 5 installations had a recirc system, I put a timer on there, retained the full warranty... hmm if you don't know again, now you know
> 
> I don't know the point you are trying to make with the Rinnai venting? Are you saying Noritz can not be vented? I am confused...


You are funny. First of all only the more expensive condensing models are vented in PVC. I already knew. It is more expensive and doesn't help your argument. It also has a SS secondary heat exchanger in it....I am not a fan for several reasons. 

As far as warranties on a recirc system, it depends. Their three smaller ones below 7.5 gpm I believe you cannot use recirc and keep warranty the same. You need an aquastat. A timer alone will not keep your warranty. 

They are all vented. One hole is better than two. I am not quite sure where your confusion is on venting. Surely you didn't think I was some moron that doesn't know they need to be vented. Let me know what you are talking about and I will explain my view point.

You need to do more reading. No offense, just want you to know.


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## Gettinit

I was also not picking on any one manufacturer.


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## Surfing Plumber

Don The Plumber said:


> Seems like whenever the argument about tank heaters vs. tankless heaters comes up,for residential use, the tankless guys always think that the only reason the plumbers that install tanks, keep doing it, is because, as was said, a monkey could do it, & we're just stupid.
> 
> The reason I do it, is because it is economical for the customer, fits their needs, they don't have to take a 2nd mortgage to pay for it, they rarely, if ever, have to service it, & it is profitable for me, cuz I'm in & out, with rarely, if ever a call back.
> 
> If a monkey could do it, then why does it require a permit?
> 
> The venting & gas pipe are huge obstacles on tankless, especially on replacements. If I have an existing chimney, I can't use it on a tankless. Instead of a couple nipples & ftgs to reconnect gas, I gotta run a whole new larger size gasline. And I'm sure you high tech tankless guys, with all this up to date knowledge, would not run a crap flex pipe to this Rolls Royce unit right?
> 
> The customers that I am accustomed to, don't care how their hot water gets there. The tanks provide them enough for their needs. Tank heater has fit their needs for decades. They don't want to be servicing & flushing & replacing parts every year. And you know the only way they find their tankless unit don't work, is when they gotta take a cold shower, before the work day. Yea thats gonna make for a happy customer. And if these units supposedly last 30 yrs, 3 tanks would still be cheaper in the long run. And in alot of cases, you would only go through 2 tanks in 30 yrs. JMHO
> 
> If I thought tankless was the cats meow, for my customers, I would install them, & learn all about them. I would put one in my own house, in a heartbeat. But for now, I just can't see the advantage for me, or my customers. Even the rich customers. Then on some of these tankless units, they want an electric water heater for storage, when there is a recirc line? That's crazy. Heck a 6 or 12 gal electric heater costs almost as much as a 40 gal nat draft, gas heater.
> Then if ya want flow, just install 2 or 3 tankless units huh?


First of all, depends on the state that you live in, a permit is not always necessary required when installing a tank water heater....They required a permit for tank water heater because the code has not change for the past who knows how long. You are a professional plumber right? You tell me a monkey can't retrofit a regular tank type water heater. :blink:

I don't know how much you guys charge for tankless over there in midwest, but we install a tankless here for a 3 br home here in California for around $2500, that includes gas line, venting, labor, and the tankless. I make a great profit from it. A tank water heater, 60 gallons with 10+ years warranty, cost around $1200 installed these days. Yes, it is quick profit and easy installation, but isn't this a problem for the US? If every plumbers only install tank water heaters, then how are they differentiating themselves from the other installers? How are we going to propel to the next level? We are able to charge $2500 here in California because we have a lot of competitions, we have many experienced installers who can install one in less than 4 hours. and we also have gas utility company providing rebates. So at the end of the day, the homeowner pays for a tankless with a scale filter for around $2800, minus the rebate of $300, takes it down to $2500 with a scale filter, which will protect the heater and no problems will arise for the homeowners for the next couple of years.


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## Surfing Plumber

Gettinit said:


> You are funny. First of all only the more expensive condensing models are vented in PVC. I already knew. It is more expensive and doesn't help your argument. It also has a SS secondary heat exchanger in it....I am not a fan for several reasons.
> 
> As far as warranties on a recirc system, it depends. Their three smaller ones below 7.5 gpm I believe you cannot use recirc and keep warranty the same. You need an aquastat. A timer alone will not keep your warranty.
> 
> They are all vented. One hole is better than two. I am not quite sure where your confusion is on venting. Surely you didn't think I was some moron that doesn't know they need to be vented. Let me know what you are talking about and I will explain my view point.
> 
> You need to do more reading. No offense, just want you to know.


hahah I need to do more reading? go on and read the warranty paperwork. you DO NOT NEED aquastat as well to retain the warranty. And there are SEVERAL sizes of CONDENSING TANKLESS in which you they have different price point to use 3" PVC. Have you compare the price of Rinnai's special venting to a regular 3" schedule 40 PVC from home depot? I don't mean to come at you like this, but you obviously are not fully aware of the situation.


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## Gettinit

OK, I called Noritz and spoke to an engineer there since I don't have any installation manuals. They said I was right. I don't know what to say....I only say this because I don't want to seem like a know it all or that I just dismissed your words. Evidently you have it in writing so.....?


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## Don The Plumber

Surfing Plumber said:


> First of all, depends on the state that you live in, a permit is not always necessary required when installing a tank water heater....They required a permit for tank water heater because the code has not change for the past who knows how long. You are a professional plumber right? You tell me a monkey can't retrofit a regular tank type water heater. :blink:
> 
> I don't know how much you guys charge for tankless over there in midwest, but we install a tankless here for a 3 br home here in California for around $2500, that includes gas line, venting, labor, and the tankless. I make a great profit from it. A tank water heater, 60 gallons with 10+ years warranty, cost around $1200 installed these days. Yes, it is quick profit and easy installation, but isn't this a problem for the US? If every plumbers only install tank water heaters, then how are they differentiating themselves from the other installers? How are we going to propel to the next level? We are able to charge $2500 here in California because we have a lot of competitions, we have many experienced installers who can install one in less than 4 hours. and we also have gas utility company providing rebates. So at the end of the day, the homeowner pays for a tankless with a scale filter for around $2800, minus the rebate of $300, takes it down to $2500 with a scale filter, which will protect the heater and no problems will arise for the homeowners for the next couple of years.


40 gal nat draft tank type water heater, approx $850 installed. Thats all hard piped gas line, & copper water piped. No flex crap. So yea, I think a monkey would have a little bit of a hard time.But I never said it was hard to install a tank heater, I just said it was most practical.Permit is required here. And I am high priced. Guys will do it for $500. If I gave the customer an option for tankless, at a minimum starting at $2500 , they would throw me out of the house. I guess the economy must be better in California. So in a nut shell, whether I like tankless or not, $850 vs $2500 or more, the $850 tank will win, atleast here, 99.99% of the time.

And sorry I don't buy, that any replacement tank water heater,changed over to tankless, in an existing residence can be done in 4hrs. If it was at all possible, what is the ratio, 1 out of a life time? You gotta drain the old tank, & haul it out. Hang the new tankless on wall, run all the water pipes over, & into the bottom of new tankless, cut hole for vent in exterior of house, (most houses I deal with are brick, & have finished basements), run new vent pipe, run new larger gas pipe, & then run an electrical outlet, test out the unit, & so on, in 4hrs? With 1 guy I assume. Cuz 2 guys 4hrs, would be 8hrs total. Very hard to fathom that one.

I'm all for change, if something aint working, (like tank heater, &/or its technology), & your gonna replace it with something better, (tankless heater), but I just don't feel there is any need for a change, for this appliance that works it whole life, several times a day, without a glitch.
JMO, I know I aint gonna change your opinion, & I wouldn't want to. Just saying why most guys like myself, haven't fallen into the tankless hoopla frenzy. And even if I wanted to, I don't believe there is any market here for it, to make it worthwhile for me.


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## SewerRatz

So it's been almost three years. Got a call that they are getting tempered water.

Got here today, heater #2 and #5 are throwing the 56 error codes again. I am coming back Saturday morning to tear into them. I'll post results when I get them.


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## Texan

This thread is like a soap opera. Whats the latest.


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