# Cerro copper pipe pinholes



## eddiecalder (Jul 15, 2008)

I'm working in a grocery store at night and the entire recirc systems is full of pinholes or the black spots that will turn into pinholes. When I google " Cerro copper pipe pinholes" I find lots of websites that allude to a defective product and a lawsuit but cant find a definitive answer. 

Anyone have some info on this? 

I'm wondering if I need to repipe the whole store at this point........


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Only on the recirc line?? With pump?


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

eddiecalder said:


> I'm working in a grocery store at night and the entire recirc systems is full of pinholes or the black spots that will turn into pinholes. When I google " Cerro copper pipe pinholes" I find lots of websites that allude to a defective product and a lawsuit but cant find a definitive answer.
> 
> Anyone have some info on this?
> 
> I'm wondering if I need to repipe the whole store at this point........


It is likely a problem with the instillation before defective copper. Pin holes in circulation lines are a real common installation problem. Copper tubing is 99.99% pure copper so the chance of inclusions is almost non existent.

Mark


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

ToUtahNow said:


> It is likely a problem with the instillation before defective copper. Pin holes in circulation lines are a real common installation problem. Copper tubing is 99.99% pure copper so the chance of inclusions is almost non existent.
> 
> Mark


 How would improper installation cause pin holes?


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> How would improper installation cause pin holes?


 For one... oversizing the re circ pump..


----------



## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> For one... oversizing the re circ pump..


# 2 not reaming copper doesn't help the situation


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

justme said:


> # 2 not reaming copper doesn't help the situation


Not reaming copper can cause pin holes?


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Not reaming copper can cause pin holes?


Non reamed copper can cause localized velocity erosion. In more extreme situations, a properly reamed but undersized system can cause velocity erosion.

Mark


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

ToUtahNow said:


> Non reamed copper can cause localized velocity erosion. In more extreme situations, a properly reamed but undersized system can cause velocity erosion.
> 
> Mark


Good info. I'm amazed at the knowledge a lot of you guys have.


----------



## eddiecalder (Jul 15, 2008)

rjbphd said:


> For one... oversizing the recirc pump..


There are balancing valves everywhere on the recirc system........ 
I didnt even think to check the GPM on the pump but I will tonight. 
I would assume I would need less velocity to prevent premature wear to the copper



justme said:


> # 2 not reaming copper doesn't help the situation


I'll check this tonight but I doubt it was reemed.......



rjbphd said:


> Only on the recirc line?? With pump?


Yes




Thanks everyone. The store is only 8 years old and its a complete mess.


----------



## eddiecalder (Jul 15, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> Non reamed copper can cause localized velocity erosion. In more extreme situations, a properly reamed but undersized system can cause velocity erosion.
> 
> Mark


Would this be only by the fittings or throughout the length of pipe? 

(the holes are along the entire length of pipe)


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

How do plan on checking to see if the pipe was reamed??

It seems to me that velocity erosion caused by pipe not being reamed would only be around the fittings


----------



## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

eddiecalder said:


> There are balancing valves everywhere on the recirc system........
> I didnt even think to check the GPM on the pump but I will tonight.
> I would assume I would need less velocity to prevent premature wear to the copper
> 
> ...



In order to know if its properly sized you will need the length of the return line and the size , whether or not there are balancing valve's. If you get this info you can determine the proper size


----------



## eddiecalder (Jul 15, 2008)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> How do plan on checking to see if the pipe was reamed??
> 
> It seems to me that velocity erosion caused by pipe not being reamed would only be around the fittings


Cut 1 inch from a cpl and use my finger to feel for a ridge. If I cant feel a ridge neither can the water I would assume.

I agree with the erosion being only by the fitting unless someone has some information i'm not aware of.


----------



## eddiecalder (Jul 15, 2008)

justme said:


> In order to know if its properly sized you will need the length of the return line and the size , whether or not there are balancing valve's. If you get this info you can determine the proper size


Are you suggesting that the lines should be of equal length regardless of balancing valves?


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

eddiecalder said:


> Are you suggesting that the lines should be of equal length regardless of balancing valves?


 No... u need to get the figure the longest 'loop' and get a pump just to overcome the resitence(sp) of pipe and fittings.. most likely a lo flo pump..


----------



## eddiecalder (Jul 15, 2008)

rjbphd said:


> No... u need to get the figure the longest 'loop' and get a pump just to overcome the resitence(sp) of pipe and fittings.. most likely a lo flo pump..


Ok that makes sense. I'm worked from 6pm to 8am yesterday and I see what you said and what I thought you were trying to say.


----------



## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> No... u need to get the figure the longest 'loop' and get a pump just to overcome the resitence(sp) of pipe and fittings.. most likely a lo flo pump..


What he said , you need the footage of the longest run of return line.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

justme said:


> What he said , you need the footage of the longest run of return line.


 Thanks for the correction, my fingers get ahead of my reading..


----------



## eddiecalder (Jul 15, 2008)

Come to think of it I have never actually sized a recirc pump before. I guess all you would need is:

type of pipe
size of pipe
# of fitting
GPM required

I assume you get the sizing info from the manufactures charts.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

eddiecalder said:


> Come to think of it I have never actually sized a recirc pump before. I guess all you would need is:
> 
> type of pipe
> size of pipe
> ...


 Actually, I won't even install a pump on return if its piped correctly


----------



## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

With all that said , the percentage increase of pinholing copper was noticeble in Florida when cerro got widespread use here about 23 to 25 years ago......it wasnt consistent enough to definitively blame the "non mueller" product but we all blamed it. 

I had a Grunfos circ. pump on the higher speed cause a ridiculous amount of pinholes near the heater....before I knew about velocity issues and changed the section to cpvc


----------

