# For those who say pex won't last



## Protech

I went to a house where to VERY friendly guys wanted stops installed at all the toilets as they had a 1991 manabloc polybutylene home. They wanted a way to shut the toilets off without having to go to the main panel. I asked them if they were the original owners and they said yes. “Any leaks?”. “No.” so we have a 18 year old system without any problems. The fittings were al brass with the exception of the panel it self. If a poly system will last 18+ years then I think it’s safe to say the pex will be fine to.


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## Protech

more pics


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## Protech

yet more


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## Phat Cat

With the way we have seen new construction plumbers (mostly illegals) install PEX, doubt it will last ten years! It's cheap so it will continued to be used, but we all pay for it in our homeowner's insurance premiums.


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## TotalPlumber

PlumbCrazy said:


> With the way we have seen new construction plumbers (mostly illegals) install PEX, doubt it will last ten years! It's cheap so it will continued to be used, but we all pay for it in our homeowner's insurance premiums.


 
so, just so I understand, the immigration status of the installer effects the warranty of the product? PEX won't last ten years because of this? or are you saying there are kinks, bad crimps, no expansion joints, and other poor techniques due to poor training? Does one's immigration status indicate weather or not they do good work? 
FOR THE RECORD: I am in no way advocating the use of illegal immigrants for anything! The word illegal means illegal! I have never used 'em, never will. Plumbcrazy, I was pretty shocked to read this post. You are better than that. Illegals are here and some contractors insist on using them. If you choose to not use them, it's your right. Why throw the baby out with the bathwater in this way? 

my 2 cents.

Total


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## Phat Cat

> so, just so I understand, the immigration status of the installer effects the warranty of the product?


Sometimes I summarize to a fault because my mind connects the dots very quickly. My thought process goes something like this. Builders who are willing to break and bend the rules (hiring illegals) do it to save money. Typically they hire the cheapest subcontractors out there. The subs and their employees care very little about the overall project because they are basically working for next to nothing. Builders who break the rules do it to help their profit margins. It's certainly not to deliver quality to the end user. How well (& long) a product lasts is directly related to the installation and the integrity of the company who stands behind it. As for immigration status - YES - indirectly this does affect longevity. If you own a home in a community and your family has ties to a community, your reputation and ability to keep a job to support your family is tied to your work performance. If you own nothing and are willing to relocate at the drop of a dime - reputation and quality doesn't matter. Illegals are known to migrate from place to place and the builders that hire them don't check references. There is a higher accountability when you are an American. 



> PEX won't last ten years because of this? or are you saying there are kinks, bad crimps, no expansion joints, and other poor techniques due to poor training?


My opinion is based on exactly what you wrote.



> Does one's immigration status indicate weather or not they do good work?


Indirectly yes! History has proven as humans we behave and perform better when there is accountability.



> FOR THE RECORD: I am in no way advocating the use of illegal immigrants for anything!


I am not against anyone earning a living. However, using poorly trained illegals (or ANYONE poorly trained for that matter) in construction affects our industry. 



> Plumbcrazy, I was pretty shocked to read this post. You are better than that.


Rereading my post, I don't see what is so shocking. Everyone here has seen shoddy, new construction work. If adding that illegals are performing a lot of the shoddy work bothers you, then I am surprised. Reality is that a lot of new construction utilizes illegals - reality is a lot of new construction is shoddy. That's my conclusion and only my opinion.



> Illegals are here and some contractors insist on using them. If you choose to not use them, it's your right.


It is not only my right, it is my civic duty. It is my loyalty to my country. I'm not selling out my country, but I am starting to feel like it is selling me out.

PEX properly installed and utilizing quality materials and labor appears to be a good system. That said, since a lot of the fittings and such are coming from China, where we all know quality control is less than here in America - I wouldn't bet on it! Somewhere on this forum was a post about Zurn ? PEX fittings failing - possible cause was the quality of brass used. 

I miss the old America! Quality is a thing of the past and too many sit idly by and watch it go. It seems as though people have forgotten what value means.


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## pauliplumber

Hey pro is that a poly to pex adapter in the 5th pick down? Didn't know they existed. Back in the early 90's I put in a lot of polybutelene when I worked for my brother in law on cape cod, was popular with this one builder. I've been meaning to ask him how they are holding up. It was always brass fittings with copper crimp rings.


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## TotalPlumber

Plumbcrazy,
I don't disagree with many of your points. The logic used in your 2nd post is more of what I'm used to from you. The first one was loaded with assumptions, heresay and rhetoric. I'm expect you to be the "voice of reason" on this forum, and you usually are just that. I was merely surprised at the tone of the first one, though. 

Total


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## Cal

TotalPlumber said:


> Plumbcrazy,
> I don't disagree with many of your points. The logic used in your 2nd post is more of what I'm used to from you. The first one was loaded with assumptions, heresay and rhetoric. I'm expect you to be the "voice of reason" on this forum, and you usually are just that. I was merely surprised at the tone of the first one, though.
> 
> Total


Man ,, you got a pair on you !!! Questioning Herself ?? My head hurt just reading the first few paragraphs of response 
:laughing::laughing:


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## Phat Cat

My initial tone was a little harsh. In my defense, I just received my homeowner's insurance bill and it went up again. 

Due to shoddy plumbing in new construction and homeowners willing to use handymen, the water restoration companies that are tied in with the insurance companies are raking in small fortunes and we are all paying the price. 

Sometimes it feels like we are fighting an uphill battle and losing ground when it comes to professional plumbing and that is really the source of my frustration.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

Manablocs (cirlce R) are cool. BUT, i hate installing them. PITA. when you do 48 of them in 3 months, you kinda lose your taste for them. But, if i ever built a new home for me, i would use a manabloc. My house would be an offgrade though, id run all the lines under the house. I am a believer in pex. I use it all the time. Just did a custom shower with 6 body sprays, a handheld, two regular shower heads, and one rain head in the ceiling. One tempature control vavle, 5 volume control knobs. All pex.


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## user4

You're calling 18 years proof of longevity?

Let me know when it catches up with the Carbon and Carbide building on Michigan Ave, it has 27 floors worth of water pipe risers that are over a hundred years old, as does the Wrigley building on the other side of the river, and the water pipe in those buildings will not burn.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Okay, I'm gonna try to be nice, and I'm going to be "reasonable"....at least till ironranger comes in here defending his tried and true.


Protech, for the record, did you put that piping together below in the picture? Everyone is up for criticism when they post; I've had my share and sure enough, I taketh, I giveth.


If someone wants to ball bust me on sharkbites, I'm cool with that. At least there is no "plastic" involved other than the piping I'm having to contend with.


If I was a homeowner and you installed that group of fittings, knowing that the connection exists because of personal preference to a brand you're using, 

I'd have you come over every week to mop that floor in and around that piping, because what you've created is a potential leak point because all the years before you changed that piping, it was possible to mop, move stuff around that connection. Not no more. 

You've installed *4* points of possible leaking instead of just 1 where it connects. 

You cannot "group" polybutylene with PEX. They are two different families of plastic piping systems. You're comparing one solo house that has no problems to the deafening roar of all the people who have had problems with this piping, and it's in the millions in damage as a result.


Why wasn't a pex riser used instead of a flex stainless steel supply, to at least "strengthen" that potential connection from leaking?


First hit with the mop and it's going to break/leak/rupture. It's going to be an accident, and I surely hope you don't throw a rebuttal stating that they should now stop mopping their floor around their toilet. 

Between your thread and mine, can you all see the resemblance of how **** up this **** really is? 


We aren't plumbers anymore because the word "plumb" means level, accurate, straight. There is nothing in the equation of plastic piping systems that equates to that notion. 

We've all turned into garden hose installers, that's about it. Mexicans? They have their place:


"Yo Pedro, you matcha red to red, blue to blue and make fast through the wood." 

Running waters for a mobile home is done in the exact same way. No difference, crimp and run. 

Don't worry, it's here to stay...but I'm going to make money off this stuff and I never have to install it to say that. I'm now the voice of the victims as we cannot have so much praise that is giving problems to so many victims across the states. 

If you're going to deny that, or anyone for that matter, you've just lowered your platform and raised mine. 


Roast "Letting the steak burn on the grill intentionally" Duck :laughing:


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## Redwood

Put me down as agreeing with the duck on this...
That's some ****** up ****. :whistling2:

Nothing ruins my day worse than running into a leaking polybutylene line on a manabloc that won't shut off. Freakin Junk!

Home running is for people that don't know how to size pipe.:yes:

I like to run trunk and branch with remote manifolds.


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## gusty60

Duck, I believe the 'plumb' in plumber comes from the Latin word 'plumbum' which means 'lead'. Not busting your balls though:no:


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## Protech

Ok, here's the deal duck. It’s 9:46pm and I'm just now walking in the door. I'm gonna go spend some time with my girl so I'm not going to unload on you tonight as I just don't have the time..........but tomorrow morning it's on boy!

I'll leave you with one question until morning: How would you have done it?



Roast Duck said:


> Okay, I'm gonna try to be nice, and I'm going to be "reasonable"....at least till ironranger comes in here defending his tried and true.
> 
> 
> Protech, for the record, did you put that piping together below in the picture? Everyone is up for criticism when they post; I've had my share and sure enough, I taketh, I giveth.
> 
> 
> If someone wants to ball bust me on sharkbites, I'm cool with that. At least there is no "plastic" involved other than the piping I'm having to contend with.
> 
> 
> If I was a homeowner and you installed that group of fittings, knowing that the connection exists because of personal preference to a brand you're using,
> 
> I'd have you come over every week to mop that floor in and around that piping, because what you've created is a potential leak point because all the years before you changed that piping, it was possible to mop, move stuff around that connection. Not no more.
> 
> You've installed *4* points of possible leaking instead of just 1 where it connects.
> 
> You cannot "group" polybutylene with PEX. They are two different families of plastic piping systems. You're comparing one solo house that has no problems to the deafening roar of all the people who have had problems with this piping, and it's in the millions in damage as a result.
> 
> 
> Why wasn't a pex riser used instead of a flex stainless steel supply, to at least "strengthen" that potential connection from leaking?
> 
> 
> First hit with the mop and it's going to break/leak/rupture. It's going to be an accident, and I surely hope you don't throw a rebuttal stating that they should now stop mopping their floor around their toilet.
> 
> Between your thread and mine, can you all see the resemblance of how **** up this **** really is?
> 
> 
> We aren't plumbers anymore because the word "plumb" means level, accurate, straight. There is nothing in the equation of plastic piping systems that equates to that notion.
> 
> We've all turned into garden hose installers, that's about it. Mexicans? They have their place:
> 
> 
> "Yo Pedro, you matcha red to red, blue to blue and make fast through the wood."
> 
> Running waters for a mobile home is done in the exact same way. No difference, crimp and run.
> 
> Don't worry, it's here to stay...but I'm going to make money off this stuff and I never have to install it to say that. I'm now the voice of the victims as we cannot have so much praise that is giving problems to so many victims across the states.
> 
> If you're going to deny that, or anyone for that matter, you've just lowered your platform and raised mine.
> 
> 
> Roast "Letting the steak burn on the grill intentionally" Duck :laughing:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

gusty60 said:


> Duck, I believe the 'plumb' in plumber comes from the Latin word 'plumbum' which means 'lead'. Not busting your balls though:no:


 

Damn you! You hit me with your big fish!


Okay......let me paraphrase or dig myself a deeper hole: 


When you plumb a house, do we intentionally put in crooked piping systems? Or do we take careful attention to proper installation, being proud of our work and considering our craft, artwork. 

We've went from hard and rigid to soft and bending, and there's no blue pill to fix this. 

When I call out to another plumber when running my stacks from basement to rooftop, I ask, "Is it plumb?" Meaning straight, tight, level.

There was a good reason why there was a groove in those torpedo levels on one side of the tool, it was for copper piping systems that you jig up and pull measurements when you piping was straight and you run with it.

If you've been doing it enough like you and me, we can set the torpedo level aside and eyeball it because years of sight gauging has earned that quality control feature. 



Word History: A plumber works with water pipes, once made from lead, with lead solder for the joints. The Romans used lead pipes, and the word plumber comes from the Latin word for lead, plumbum. There is no Latin, or even Indo-European, etymology for plumbum but it bears a distant similarity to the Greek word for lead, the standard form of which, molubdos, gives us the name of another element in the Periodic Table, molybdenum. Two non-standard forms, molibos and especially bolimos, are even more similar to the Latin.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/plumber


No where is there mention of plastic flexible water piping in the above context. 

But as I say, it's all here to stay. You all can choose to use what products you like, I'm cool with it. It shouldn't matter to anyone what I think is best, this is a free world to entertain the opinion you choose to follow, represent. I just can't turn a blind eye to a history of piping that in the past 25 years has surpassed a billion dollars in property damage claims, resorted to products that offer no benefit when discarded like the precious metal copper provides, and doesn't have a slew of disgruntled angry as hell mobs of people searching on the internet for answers of why I have water leaks all over my home.

To knock copper that worked for so long and then starts failing...who is at fault for that? Where is the MASSIVE copper class action lawsuits with tv cameras and 2am infomercials and lawyer ads stating you've been robbed by the manufacture to supply a product that did not live to expectation?

Keep in mind, there's always two sides to every story, and mine is just one of a million of those who are not plumbers, but victims of our product choices that are lining up to have a spot to have their say, get understanding and information to help them through their crisis and get some answers, 

because the product rep that came in with lunch and a roll of pipe that promises to give you higher profit margins and less work, copper is bad mentality is long gone along with the guarantee that the product you now have miles installed is possibly starting to untie like your shoes when you was in grade school.

And to think that it's not a big deal? Maybe I was born under a park bench in the woods, yesterday. 


Roast "working for the man" Duck


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## user823

Sorry Duck but not in the mood for an argument but I will say it will be a cold day in hell when anyone has to repair any of my Viega Pex installations, not in this lifetime.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Protech said:


> Ok, here's the deal duck. It’s 9:46pm and I'm just now walking in the door. I'm gonna go spend some time with my girl so I'm not going to unload on you tonight as I just don't have the time..........but tomorrow morning it's on boy!
> 
> I'll leave you with one question until morning: How would you have done it?


 
Given the fact that PEX stubouts in copper are made in Type L thickness? 

I would of opened that wall up and braced that preformed copper stubout and turned out the copper, regular shutoff valve and then a properly sized flex riser.

No movement in the line whatsoever. I don't want any connection visible but 1, and that's where the shutoff valve connects to the piping.


I will bet you your business that if given the choice in design in subjective view from the customer's vantage point...they'd rather have that copper stubout and worry about a leak down the road........looooooong down the road than to have a connection that looks like ass cancer on farrah faucett not having the ability to even mop around their damn toilet after you left it like that. Please, do not tell me you're going to defend this. It's amazing that you're wanting to build momentum in silent thought to achieve this the next day.

Why the 2 barbed fittings? Why not a valve to crimp to the PB? If it is so good it should have a 1 step transition valve that offers the ability to just cut and crimp, be done with it!


This is where complicated has its own fix. It wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't the piping that's being used. 

I personally could not do that to any of my customers. And if that is a zurn brass fitting, I'd be moving out of the country because those snap soon enough. The thickness of that brass barbed fitting along with water quality dictates all those parameters. 


Like I said, I'm being reasonable. I can't see that connection you put up working anywhere in respect to a professional repair. 

If you support it that much, put it in your latest tv advertising clip you posted on here. Be proud, show it off. Prove to me that the masses and your competition are going to call it good and I'll be your sheep.


Roast "boosting page views since 2002" Duck



*One crimp connection at the wall, inside the wall and braced, not exposed.*


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## Airgap

AND HEEERE WEEE GOOOO!!!:boxing::boxing:


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## user823

*"One crimp connection at the wall, inside the wall and braced, not exposed.*"


I find that hard to believe coming from you!:laughing: I think you would have used a sharkbite!:thumbup:


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## Plumberman

Wow, think I would have left those pics on my camera


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

ironranger said:


> Sorry Duck but not in the mood for an argument but I will say it will be a cold day in hell when anyone has to repair any of my Viega Pex installations, not in this lifetime. Maybe you should change your name to sharkbite! You have some huge ones to talk smack about the above job after the disaster waiting to happen you posted! LOL


 

Ahh, can I pull sap out of a tree or what? :laughing:


I'd love for you to formulate the principle that your statements hold weight, when I know for a fact that you and everyone was running copper 10 years ago. Look, some of us don't take the fast way to shanghi to get work done. That doesn't mean it's wrong to use it, but there's a sport in this trade called professionalism, and I don't see it with PEX. You see that camera man? 

There's plumbers on this site that use it, and that's great...it doesn't make you any less of a plumber. It's a product choice, that's it. Just like my sharkbites and you know why? Because there isn't a better connection to that CPVC **** that I trust at this point, and I'm going with the consensus that ford pack joints underground for copper worked all those years flawlessly without failure, let's try another design like the stage up from PB, Blue Max, Plastic Dip Tubes. It's just not the father in the family that's the devil in disguise, it's the sister, the brother, the mother and the grandson that's all in this big picture of products that aren't standing the test of time that rebounds as products that are proven to fail beyond their maturity dates.

I didn't write that book, history did. I'm just the interpreter at this point and able to clearly decide who is getting the raw deal and who's the one smiling like a chesire cat when this stuff blows up in the walls and everywhere else when it wasn't supposed to.

But remember chuck, you're the one tail spinning through forums getting threads locked and deleted so consider my statement to you a simple one; we don't see eye to eye because you're kneeling son.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Plumberman said:


> Wow, think I would have left those pics on my camera


 

LOL! Someone said that about me on my crazy water heater replacement. :blink:

Thank goodness for doctors and pills.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

airgap said:


> AND HEEERE WEEE GOOOO!!!:boxing::boxing:


 
Where's your air gap hat! I need it!


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## Airgap

Duck takes a close first round 10-9. 

I believe you may need more than an air gap hat in this one. I'll see if I can find my rpz helmet.

*waiting anxiously for Protech's reply*


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## user823

You're so full of it Duck you don't know which way is up anymore. I haven't posted a dozen times in the last two months on the other TWO fourms I have EVER posted on so back off.
We don't see eye to eye because I'm a professional and ONLY do professional work, you on the other hand have proven through your posts and pictures that you are a *&$% and could care less about the health and safety of the public regarding your so called plumbing work.


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## Ron

Let stop calling others on here a hack. We are plumbers on here.


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## user823

Ron The Plumber said:


> Let stop calling others on here a hack. We are plumbers on here.


Could have fooled me.:whistling2: I'm serious Ron, when I see professional plumbers disregarding the safety of customers, taking short cuts and so on I seriously have to question the ethics. In my book that is a hack. If I had an employee take such disregard for his profession I would boot him on his butt so quick he wouldn't know what hit him.


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## Ron

Roast Duck is a plumber, he makes his own decisions, he does what he feels is best for what he is dealing with, don't call him a hack.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

From an outsiders point of view, its great that all of us are so passionate about our work. You won't find any other trades, or tradesmen like it. We take our SHiot very seriously.


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## user823

Ron The Plumber said:


> Roast Duck is a plumber, he makes his own decisions, he does what he feels is best for what he is dealing with, don't call him a hack.


Sorry Ron I won't say it again but I call them as I see them and it doesn't get any more clear than that.


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## Ron

ironranger said:


> Sorry Ron I won't say it again but I call them as I see them and it doesn't get any more clear than that.


Thats all fine a dandy with me, say how you feel about it, make your points, and lets leave it at that, but we all can be professional at what we put down in words, that's all I'm saying here.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

ironranger said:


> You're so full of it Duck you don't know which way is up anymore. I haven't posted a dozen times in the last two months on the other TWO fourms I have EVER posted on so back off.
> We don't see eye to eye because I'm a professional and ONLY do professional work, you on the other hand have proven through your posts and pictures that you are a *&$% and could care less about the health and safety of the public regarding your so called plumbing work.


 
I'm driving home points and you're calling names. Ever think that method might not work in the trade of opinions? 


I've brought some great attention to this trade by my inspirations on the web and in my profession doing work right, following a ritual of not shortcutting the profession or the work. That doesn't mean I'm forced to make a glued connection I don't want to make. (See CPVC/Water Heater Thread) 

You got no pony in this race buddy, I already know that. If you want to make yourself credible at this point you should get out there and quit being a complainer to everything but what you do and do more than leave nothing but a bunch of empty cardboard boxes. 

Hahaaaa!!! G' damn that was funny as hell to type that one out! :laughing:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

ironranger said:


> Sorry Ron I won't say it again but I call them as I see them and it doesn't get any more clear than that.


 
How many times do you say sorry on forum boards, a week?

At some point the alcoholic stares at the glass, knowing there's no answers in the bottom.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

Flexible PEX tube is manufactured by extrusion, and shipped and stored on spools, where rigid plastic or metal piping must be cut to some practical length for shipping and storage. This leads to several advantages, including lower shipping and handling costs due to decreased weight and improved storage options.
PEX plumbing installations require fewer fittings than rigid piping. The flexible tubing can turn 90 degree corners without the need for elbow fittings, and PEX tubing unrolled from spools can be installed in long runs without the need for coupling fittings.
Attaching PEX tube to fittings does not require soldering, and so eliminates the health hazards involved with lead-based solder and acid fluxes; PEX is also safer to install since a torch is not needed to make connections..
PEX resists the scale build-up common with copper pipe, and does not pit or corrode when exposed to acidic water.
PEX is much more resistant to freeze-breakage than copper or rigid plastic pipe.
PEX tubing does not transfer heat as readily as copper, and so conserves energy.
Water flows more quietly through PEX tube, and the characteristic "water hammer" noise of copper pipe systems is virtually eliminated.
PEX plumbing installations cost less because:
PEX is less expensive than copper pipe.
Less time is spent running pipe and installing fittings than with rigid pipe systems.
Installing fewer fittings reduces the chances for expensive callbacks.


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## user823

Roast Duck said:


> How many times do you say sorry on forum boards, a week?
> 
> At some point the alcoholic stares at the glass, knowing there's no answers in the bottom.


What?


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## user823

Roast Duck said:


> I'm driving home points and you're calling names. Ever think that method might not work in the trade of opinions?
> 
> 
> I've brought some great attention to this trade by my inspirations on the web and in my profession doing work right, following a ritual of not shortcutting the profession or the work. That doesn't mean I'm forced to make a glued connection I don't want to make. (See CPVC/Water Heater Thread)
> 
> You got no pony in this race buddy, I already know that. If you want to make yourself credible at this point you should get out there and quit being a complainer to everything but what you do and do more than leave nothing but a bunch of empty cardboard boxes.
> 
> Hahaaaa!!! G' damn that was funny as hell to type that one out! :laughing:


I'm calling names? Do you even read what you post? No Duck you're not forced to do anything, my point exactly. You will take the short cut every single time. Kitchen sink job ring a bell, using silicone to join tubular? Now the water heater disaster? Problem after problem with your customers? You do it to yourself Duck and then you brag about it? If that's how you bring attention to this trade then oh my, leave me out!:laughing: Sure, we're all professional plumbers here, LOL.
I'm not sorry for what I said earlier about you, that's exactly what you are and I don't care if I can say it here or not. You have proven it, you can't help yourself.


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## Plumberman

fftopic:


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## Ron

Take a break, come back when you can say something worth reading about ok.


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## leak1

i have to get my 2 cents in here, i have nothing against pex but that it is a quick&easy install, i dont use it except in mobilhomes or if thejob is already plumbed in pex. weather or not you like it pex will be used by many plumbers and thats there personal choice, but in my opinion doing a job in copper - weather it is 1/2in. or 4in. is a work of art. theres nothing more professional looking then a straight,plumb&level copper job! LEAK-OLD SCHOOL-1
PS-weather you use pex,copper,sharkbites,or duct tape thats your call,i may not agree with you guys sometimes but as my dear old dad use to say: if the HO wants the toilet hung upside down on the ceiling do it! just make sure you tell them the water wont stay in the bowl.
CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!!!!!!!!!! PLEEEEEEEAAAAAASSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEE!


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## Herk

OK, I guess I have to say it again. My own house is plumbed in polybutylene. I replaced the copper with poly in 1992. I was tired of having the copper freeze if the power went out.

I have one of those manablocks, just like the one in the photos, except mine isn't showing the leaks that one is. 

I have never had a leak or a problem of any kind with my system. I have three finished baths.

As to the direct connected valves at the wall - yes, there used to be such things, but for crineoutloud! You can't buy them anymore. PB problems were caused by chemicals in the water used for purification. Our water is clean; our pipe is not failing. I have always preferred to bring my pipes out of the floor to putting the stubouts on - but of course I use the stubouts in basement walls. All my fixtures except the tubs have valves directly crimped to the pipe, unless I've remodeled and changed the valve, in which case I've converted to PEX and put on a brass valve.

I was not plumbing in copper ten years ago. I was using polybutylene until they quit making it. I have yet to run into a PB system that has problems in a house, although they all have problems in trailer houses because of the cheap fittings and poor installation practices.

I spent plenty of years plumbing in copper and had no problem switching to plastic when it became available. I don't much care for CPVC. I don't trust glued joints as much as mechanical ones. And yes, I would use Sharkbites to hook up a water heater to CPVC - I think the joint is superior to the CPVC joints. But that's just my opinion. 

Considering the great number of PEX repairs I've made without ever a failure, I trust that, too. And considering that the plumbers in the area use PEX on new houses and have since it became available, I am not repairing them. They just work. The main failures I've seen are on the copper manifolds rather than any other part of the system.

Saying that copper is a work of art is something I will not argue with, but most people will not buy a Rolls Royce when they can only afford a Chevy.


----------



## Protech

Ohh, that's how you’d do it eh? So how would you have connected to that 3/8" poly huh? What fitting would you have used?

It just so happens that no one makes a 3/8"poly x 3/8"od compression straight 1/4 turn stop and that would have been the only way to install a valve with only 1 connection. In fact, the only way to properly connect onto a 3/8" poly line is to use a 3/8"poly x 3/8"pex adapter. They don't make a 3/8"pb x 1/2" pex adapter so the only option is to use a 3/8pb x 3/8pex adapter then a 3/8pex x 1/2pex adapter to get to 1/2" pex for my 1/4 turn stops. But you already knew that when you made those ignorant statements right? 

You were probably where pissing in a bottle in the back of your POS pickup truck and thought "I know, I'll just say something really stupid on PZ tonight to get a rise out of a real professional like protech". Yea, that's proly how it went down because I’d hate to think you just didn't understand everything in the above paragraph because that would be the only other reason you would spout such ignorant garbage. What's next, you gonna tell me how to properly sweat onto pvc?



Roast Duck said:


> Given the fact that PEX stubouts in copper are made in Type L thickness? And you do realize that at least half of the people running pex don't even use those copper stubouts because the whole reason to use pex is to get away from copper, right?
> 
> I would of opened that wall up and braced that preformed copper stubout and turned out the copper, regular shutoff valve and then a properly sized flex riser. Uh huh, and how would you have connected your 5/8" OD copper to that 3/8" OD pex?
> 
> No movement in the line whatsoever. I don't want any connection visible but 1, and that's where the shutoff valve connects to the piping.
> Assuming you actually had a proper and uncomplicated solution to the above paragraph how would you sold the $1500 worth of work you just described when I was barely able to get them to sign for $450?
> 
> 
> I will bet you your business(well I wouldn't, one of my trucks is worth more than your whole bussiness) that if given the choice in design in subjective view from the customer's vantage point...they'd rather have that copper stubout(well, you'd be horribly wrong buddy:thumbsup and worry about a leak down the road........looooooong down the road than to have a connection that looks like ass cancer on farrah faucett not having the ability to even mop around their damn toilet after you left it like that. Please, do not tell me you're going to defend this (I've already done so and it's your move "yellow bottle"). It's amazing that you're wanting to build momentum in silent thought to achieve this the next day.(I didn't want to "build momentum". I’d rather spend time with my attractive better half than argue with some ignorant, old, crude plumber on a Friday night after working a 14 hour day.)
> 
> Why the 2 barbed fittings? Why not a valve to crimp to the PB?(I've already went over this.) If it is so good it should have a 1 step transition valve that offers the ability to just cut and crimp, be done with it! (show me one and I'll use it)
> 
> 
> This is where complicated has its own fix. It wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't the piping that's being used.(what does that even mean?)
> 
> I personally could not do that to any of my customers. And if that is a zurn brass fitting, I'd be moving out of the country because those snap soon enough. The thickness of that brass barbed fitting along with water quality dictates all those parameters. (I see, so I guess all of those other brass fittings in the existing pb system in the home should have snapped then.)
> 
> 
> Like I said, I'm being reasonable. I can't see that connection you put up working anywhere in respect to a professional repair.
> 
> If you support it that much, put it in your latest tv advertising clip you posted on here.
> Be proud, show it off. Prove to me that the masses and your competition are going to call it good and I'll be your sheep. (So let me get this straight. I special order some 3/8"pb x 3/8"pex adaptors and make a second trip out so I can install proper crimp connections onto a pb system in lieu of some other half assed connection(shark bite, qick tite, john guest, brass compression etc) and I'm a hack. You do a heater install (as seen on your cpvc post) and install shark bites to adapt from 3/4 hard copper to 3/4" cpvc even though you should have had copper FIPs and cpvc MIPs with you to do a threaded transition but you chose not to. Yep I'm the hack and your the pro.......:whistling2:)
> 
> 
> Roast "boosting page views since 2002" Duck
> 
> 
> 
> *One crimp connection at the wall, inside the wall and braced, not exposed.*


----------



## user823

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

By the way, you're right about the trucks since he has ONE and it's a small pickup with a shell.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Protech said:


> Ohh, that's how you’d do it eh? So how would you have connected to that 3/8" poly huh? What fitting would you have used?
> 
> *Given you are so defiant to install plastic, yes. The fitting I'd use is one "correct" connection to PB, no 4 connections because you didn't have the right parts. You're picture is heading in places for reference of "what not to do" and I decide if I tag your name to it.*
> 
> 
> It just so happens that no one makes a 3/8"poly x 3/8"od compression straight 1/4 turn stop and that would have been the only way to install a valve with only 1 connection. In fact, the only way to properly connect onto a 3/8" poly line is to use a 3/8"poly x 3/8"pex adapter. They don't make a 3/8"pb x 1/2" pex adapter so the only option is to use a 3/8pb x 3/8pex adapter then a 3/8pex x 1/2pex adapter to get to 1/2" pex for my 1/4 turn stops. But you already knew that when you made those ignorant statements right?
> 
> *First off, I don't work on those systems when I'm told the product exists. It's easier to pass up these situations because of the nature of the beast.*
> 
> 
> You were probably where pissing in a bottle in the back of your POS pickup truck and thought "I know, I'll just say something really stupid on PZ tonight to get a rise out of a real professional like protech". Yea, that's proly how it went down because I’d hate to think you just didn't understand everything in the above paragraph because that would be the only other reason you would spout such ignorant garbage. What's next, you gonna tell me how to properly sweat onto pvc?


*Funny, I get compliments all the time with my truck, and sells jobs all the time. For reference, *

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060609183616AAfYO3y

:thumbup: Got it covered! :laughing: Thank YOU Yahoo answers!


----------



## Kyle181

Protech, i was messing with you before about your other pictures, but seriously that is some garbage work in this one, i have no idea why you would be proud of that enough to post the picture online, if i was a homeowner and saw that you were doing work like that, i would definately not call you... you dont need to be a plumber to know crap work when you see it . sorry bud


----------



## user823

Already fighting and causing trouble with someone else duck?:thumbsup: Nice, real nice.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Given the fact that PEX stubouts in copper are made in Type L thickness? And you do realize that at least half of the people running pex don't even use those copper stubouts because the whole reason to use pex is to get away from copper, right? 


*Given your inability to properly connect to that PB, I believe your customers would rather have the option that provides not only a better appearance, but a better install.*



I would of opened that wall up and braced that preformed copper stubout and turned out the copper, regular shutoff valve and then a properly sized flex riser. Uh huh, and how would you have connected your 5/8" OD copper to that 3/8" OD pex?

*Given what you did, I'd use garden hose with hose clamps before I'd put that many points of potential leaks in that system. 

I bet you never even checked the water pressure to know what you're dealing with.*

No movement in the line whatsoever. I don't want any connection visible but 1, and that's where the shutoff valve connects to the piping. 
Assuming you actually had a proper and uncomplicated solution to the above paragraph how would you sold the $1500 worth of work you just described when I was barely able to get them to sign for $450?


*If you're going to rip people off in that manner, of course, you're going to have limited options. But I don't follow those lines in business. *



I will bet you your business(well I wouldn't, one of my trucks is worth more than your whole bussiness) that if given the choice in design in subjective view from the customer's vantage point...they'd rather have that copper stubout(well, you'd be horribly wrong buddy:thumbsup and worry about a leak down the road........looooooong down the road than to have a connection that looks like ass cancer on farrah faucett not having the ability to even mop around their damn toilet after you left it like that. Please, do not tell me you're going to defend this (I've already done so and it's your move "yellow bottle"). It's amazing that you're wanting to build momentum in silent thought to achieve this the next day.(I didn't want to "build momentum". I’d rather spend time with my attractive better half than argue with some ignorant, old, crude plumber on a Friday night after working a 14 hour day.)

*Priceless! I know I'm something special when people resort to weak draw comparisons. Aren't you the one posting pig slop pictures? I'm not, I'm posting pictures of water heater situations where you're plastic piping choices has me in limited option to deal with, and I work with the problems.*


Why the 2 barbed fittings? Why not a valve to crimp to the PB?(I've already went over this.) If it is so good it should have a 1 step transition valve that offers the ability to just cut and crimp, be done with it! (show me one and I'll use it)

*So, it took a plumber online to change your work practices? Maybe the picture had something to do with it? *

This is where complicated has its own fix. It wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't the piping that's being used.(what does that even mean?) 

*You know exactly what I mean. Google PB and Class Action Lawsuits and quit making one house special to a whole entire host of problems that piping had....and then you're trying to group this product with PEX? Aren't you the one who talk speaks the true chemical equations to these plastic piping systems?*



I personally could not do that to any of my customers. And if that is a zurn brass fitting, I'd be moving out of the country because those snap soon enough. The thickness of that brass barbed fitting along with water quality dictates all those parameters. (I see, so I guess all of those other brass fittings in the existing pb system in the home should have snapped then.)

*Heard of Zurn Pex brass fittings? I don't know, nor care what type you used. All I know is I see angle and straight stops that are designed with a built-in barb that makes reconnects to plastic piping a crimp joint and run, just like every other "fast" connection in plumbing. *



Like I said, I'm being reasonable. I can't see that connection you put up working anywhere in respect to a professional repair. 

If you support it that much, put it in your latest tv advertising clip you posted on here. 
Be proud, show it off. Prove to me that the masses and your competition are going to call it good and I'll be your sheep. (So let me get this straight. I special order some 3/8"pb x 3/8"pex adaptors and make a second trip out so I can install proper crimp connections onto a pb system in lieu of some other half assed connection(shark bite, qick tite, john guest, brass compression etc) and I'm a hack. You do a heater install (as seen on your cpvc post) and install shark bites to adapt from 3/4 hard copper to 3/4" cpvc even though you should have had copper FIPs and cpvc MIPs with you to do a threaded transition but you chose not to. Yep I'm the hack and your the pro.......:whistling2:)


*This is your problem on the internet to fix, not mine. I'm feeling special how I put up a thread about plastic piping and you start one to defend. The great thing is I'm playing it like a fiddle.*


*So when is job security the swing of a mop handle? *


*Lots of people have understanding with my water heater installation, but when I see crooked piping coming out of a wall with a flex stainless steel supply line that is prone to supply feed movement, especially with 4 possible connections that have more crimps than the entire home run back to the begining, *

*Someone has to stand up to the plate and call foul. *

*You are providing me a ton of script for the homeowner who knows a bad situation when they see it, and to defend it brings the reason why lawyers, lawsuits and complaints across the web are present. *

*As I repeat, I didn't write this book. *


----------



## SPH

I guess its your choice or not to use pex or copper on a job. 

But say you are pricing out a house, you price it copper, i price it pex. I will get the job without a doubt. So please by all means guys keep bashing pex and use copper, it will keep me busier and making more money.


----------



## user823

*
"I bet you never even checked the water pressure to know what you're dealing with."

Oh my, you're kidding right? LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!
*


----------



## Redwood

ironranger said:


> *"I bet you never even checked the water pressure to know what you're dealing with."*


I know he has!
We've talked...:whistling2:


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

SPH said:


> I guess its your choice or not to use pex or copper on a job.
> 
> But say you are pricing out a house, you price it copper, i price it pex. I will get the job without a doubt. So please by all means guys keep bashing pex and use copper, it will keep me busier and making more money.


 
Isn't that what you're doing already putting up piping systems that has a history already of busting/splitting, snapping off at brass fittings in the wall...

crimps blowing off because the calibration of the tool was off, crimps didn't "take", 


Manufacture quit selling or went belly up, product discontinued making their product and now you have to retrofit to existing systems.....?


Did you realize your statement has a shadow to reality? 

Don't put copper piping in where your water municipality has no qualms about taking care of corrosive water, it's that simple.



Put the stuff in people, KEEP putting it in. It's your choice. Years ago you wasn't though and years now it's showing failures. Maybe not in your backyard, but it sure is in others.

So I'm going to be the catch basin for all the negatives to this product. That doesn't mean I don't like you. All I know is there has to be a voice for the victims. Everyone "should" be on the same page on this.


----------



## user823

Redwood said:


> I know he has!
> We've talked...:whistling2:


I don't know redwood, to each their own I guess. Pressure caused it, pressure will cause it again unless the source of the problem has been fixed. From the sound of it, it has not.


----------



## user823

Roast Duck said:


> Isn't that what you're doing already putting up piping systems that has a history already of busting/splitting, snapping off at brass fittings in the wall...
> 
> crimps blowing off because the calibration of the tool was off, crimps didn't "take",
> 
> 
> Manufacture quit selling or went belly up, product discontinued making their product and now you have to retrofit to existing systems.....?
> 
> 
> Did you realize your statement has a shadow to reality?
> 
> Don't put copper piping in where your water municipality has no qualms about taking care of corrosive water, it's that simple.



You're talking about a product that had a problem, it's no longer sold. Has Wirsbo or Viega had these problems? No, they have not. Keep digging duck!:thumbup:
I don't want to fight with you duck, let's just try keeping it civil ok?:laughing:


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

ironranger said:


> You're talking about a product that had a problem, it's no longer sold. Has Wirsbo or Viega had these problems? No, they have not. Keep digging duck!:thumbup:
> I don't want to fight with you duck, let's just try keeping it civil ok?:laughing:


 
Ahh I love ya. Just put after those two products.......




















yet.


----------



## Redwood

ironranger said:


> I don't know redwood, to each their own I guess. Pressure caused it, pressure will cause it again unless the source of the problem has been fixed. From the sound of it, it has not.


Like a bad T& P for one thing...
I'm sure he didn't put the old one on the new water heater...:laughing:
Plus a few other possibilities...

It's a bit off topic and the mods should do some thread clean up

*Now about the topic at hand ranger lad...*
*A direct answer would be appreciated...*

What is your opinion of the plumbing shown on the first posts of this thread?

What would you have done differently if you were doing this job?

:whistling2:


----------



## user823

Redwood said:


> Like a bad T& P for one thing...
> I'm sure he didn't put the old one on the new water heater...:laughing:
> Plus a few other possibilities...
> 
> It's a bit off topic and the mods should do some thread clean up
> 
> *Now about the topic at hand ranger lad...*
> *A direct answer would be appreciated...*
> 
> What is your opinion of the plumbing shown on the first posts of this thread?
> 
> What would you have done differently if you were doing this job?
> 
> :whistling2:


Hahaha, I guess I never really said anything did I? I don't like dealing with the stuff because I don't carry parts for it and don't care for that style crimp fitting. 

I would have sold them a complete re-pipe using Viega pex, if not I would have passed up the job and walked. I don't have to put myself in bad situations, I'm not that hard up for work right now.:thumbsup:


----------



## user823

Roast Duck said:


> Ahh I love ya. Just put after those two products.......yet
> 
> 
> Duck we fight like two brothers wanting to tear each others head off but I think we can find some common ground and get along. Let's try discussing something we agree on.:thumbup:


----------



## Redwood

ironranger said:


> Hahaha, I guess I never really said anything did I? I don't like dealing with the stuff because I don't carry parts for it and don't care for that style crimp fitting.
> 
> I would have sold them a complete re-pipe using Viega pex, if not I would have passed up the job and walked. I don't have to put myself in bad situations, I'm not that hard up for work right now.:thumbsup:


I guess y've been blowing off a lot of work huh?
I can't wait for the next whole house repipe...
I'm patching crap I wouldn't have fixed last year.

Good to know the bad economy
is just a hiccup here...:whistling2:

Well it's good to know your just a brawling brother with duck...
came in here off topic with nothing to say...
Just to attack him!

Way to go bruther! Now grovel at his feet and say your sorry!:thumbup:


----------



## Redwood

Kiss his sweaty toes that he just pulled out of his old sneakers.


----------



## Protech

<in my truck at work so I'm keeping this short> 
So it seems no one here has a better way to do the job than the way I did it. In spite of this, some have attempted to criticize my work. So I guess I screwed up by doing what my customer wanted in the most professional way I could for the amount of money they were willing to spend? I guess maybe I should have told him he needs a complete repipe even though I know he doesn't need one? Oh wait, maybe I should have just pulled a new 1/2" pex line from the manablock on all 3 toilet lines as to reduce the number of fittings? Oh, I like ducks idea even better, just walk away. Good one duck. I should take notes. I'll be working out of a pickup truck loaded down with piss bottles and buckets of s**t hourly in no time.


----------



## user823

Redwood said:


> I guess y've been blowing off a lot of work huh?
> I can't wait for the next whole house repipe...
> I'm patching crap I wouldn't have fixed last year.
> 
> Good to know the bad economy
> is just a hiccup here...:whistling2:
> 
> Well it's good to know your just a brawling brother with duck...
> came in here off topic with nothing to say...
> Just to attack him!
> 
> Way to go bruther! Now grovel at his feet and say your sorry!:thumbup:



I have nothing to be sorry about and I'm not about to kiss ass just to be nice. IF I see something I don't agree with I will say it. I'm not afraid to hurt feelings if that's what's happened. I still don't agree with the way it was handled, I would have done it different. I guess I'm learning we all do things different and won't always agree. 

Your remark about the hiccup and the whistling icon is sort of strange, I don't get it. Are you saying that I'm not doing the re-pipes etc.? You're welcome to take a trip over here Redwood, I'll take you fishing after you look at my ledger book ok?:laughing:


----------



## nhmaster3015

When I teach the section on PEX, I drag out Watts, Viega, and Wirsbo pipe, fittings and tools. I explain how the stuff is manufactured and how it is supposed to be installed. I go over the code and the pro's and con's. At the end of the day, the decision to use or not use it is left to the plumber. You can have endless discussions as to the longevity and the merits of the products and methods. Most plumbers that use it are of the get er done fast and cheap mentality. If that's you and it's working than by all means keep on keeping on. I however have never understood this obsession with getting everything done fast. There is not one single plumber here that can tell me with a straight face that pex looks better or even as good as copper. Neither can you support an argument for the rigidity of pex as you make fixture penetrations. Truth is, it looks like crap and 30 years ago not one single plumber would have stood for that god awfull mess of spaghetti. Now we have a younger generation of plumbers that would rather get things done fast and easy and don't want to put the time in to doing a neat job. Day one of my plumbing class. The three most important tools a plumber owns. 1- his brain. 2 - a tape measure. 3 - a level. And with pex you don't need any of the above. I said in another post that AAV's are hack plumbing because 30 years ago there was no such thing and we found ways to get it done anyway. The good plumbers ran a back vent. The hacks put an S trap in and called it a day. Unfortunatly that mentality is still out there. You guys all wonder why you can't get good help and why the trade and business is slowly dying. It's because we have allowed the hack, get er done mentality, along with plastic crap to flood our trade to the point where homeowners feel like they don't need us anymore and can do it themselves. Try and find a chrome lav tube at Home Depot. There are none. They don't carry them because homeowners don't use them. The big box stores and your inability to support the trade are what's killing us. Everytime you opt to sell and install a product because it's cheaper and faster you are putting one more nail in your own damn coffin. You can argue all you want and I'm sure some of you will but mark my words the worth of a plumbing license is slowly coming to an end.

You want to call yourself a pro then prove it.


----------



## user823

Oh come on nhmaster, tell us how you really feel about pex! LOL

I don't think every homeowner is going to rush out and spend 500 plus bucks on pex tools. I'm pretty sure our livelyhood is safe.
I buy Viega in straight 20 foot lengths. If I'm doing a smaller re-pipe in the basement it's installed straight and level, it looks great. As good as copper or better and will outlast copper by decades. 
I'll continue using it, I doubt I will ever do another copper re-pipe again. Word of mouth is a great thing around here, word is spreading and I'm booking more and more re-pipes every month. People like how it looks and how it's going to last well beyond our lifetime.


----------



## express

I grew up on long island, allwe had was copper and it lasted as long as I'm around 50 years. we had great water on LI. here in Va. copper water pipes on wells are getting pin hole leaks within 15-20 years. Service line from street are having leaks within 12 years. comparing pex done right vs. copper done right pex and Quest are out lasting copper. I think everyone on here would always want to do a repipe but if the customer doesn"t want to go for it I would have done the same. steve


----------



## Redwood

Protech said:


> <in my truck at work so I'm keeping this short>
> So it seems no one here has a better way to do the job than the way I did it. In spite of this, some have attempted to criticize my work. So I guess I screwed up by doing what my customer wanted in the most professional way I could for the amount of money they were willing to spend? I guess maybe I should have told him he needs a complete repipe even though I know he doesn't need one? Oh wait, maybe I should have just pulled a new 1/2" pex line from the manablock on all 3 toilet lines as to reduce the number of fittings? Oh, I like ducks idea even better, just walk away. Good one duck. I should take notes. I'll be working out of a pickup truck loaded down with piss bottles and buckets of s**t hourly in no time.


Umm your confused that was Iron Rangers Idea...

Duck is catching flak from Iron Ranger for just changing out an overpressured water heater with a customer that wouldn't spring for a new PRV and expansion tank...

Oh well...


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Protech said:


> Good one duck. I should take notes. I'll be working out of a pickup truck loaded down with piss bottles and buckets of s**t hourly in no time.


 

I do have a following yah know! 


Look at what you made me do! Dammit! 


Got all upset sitting in my truck refreshin' my screen and 


I'll let you know when I get the bucket idea perfected!


----------



## stillaround

Ahhh pex. Ahhh polybutylene-(shame about those fittings), ahhh sharkbite. Whiles they be fussin over it in the northern country Ahll bees use'n it heah and relaxn in the sun. I sho hope it don bodder noone.


----------



## stillaround

Havent seen a 3/8 pb x1/2 mip for a long while. They may be out there. The transition fittings are available readily.
I just have to add this: Weall dont care how you do it up north.:laughing:


----------



## Protech

<still at work> please show me where to buy this 3/8pb x 1/2"pex fitting. I've never seen one. Nor have I ever seen a 3/8" pb brass 1/4 turn angle stop. I'd love to buy them in bulk as I am in many poly homes.


----------



## Protech

And no, we don't care how you do it up north.


----------



## user823

stillaround said:


> Havent seen a 3/8 pb x1/2 mip for a long while. They may be out there. The transition fittings are available readily.
> I just have to add this: Weall dont care how you do it up north.:laughing:


You're late to the party, sorry but not interested in a debate with you about how yeall do things down south.:laughing:


----------



## stillaround

Protech, Im with you on this. Your repair got rid of the no angle stop bad fitting . You cant get these pb fittings anymore except the pex to pb coupling. The available parts made this the normal choice for Florida and the customers dont care and are glad they have a valve and it wont burst. A couple years ago Lowes still had a buttload of pb fittings. I came from up north and find the outrage humerous because I went thru it. Your repair is more sound than risking a shark bite to keep the pattern close.


----------



## user823

Protech said:


> And no, we don't care how you do it up north.


I'm looking at them right now in my book for 5.69 each but since you don't care..........
I guess you'all will just have to keep doing them like you did southern style! Good luck with that!:laughing::thumbup:


----------



## stillaround

ironranger said:


> You're late to the party, sorry but not interested in a debate with you about how yeall do things down south.:laughing:


FYI it was tongue in cheek. I made the up north comments here when I moved 21 years ago and got the full attitude adjustment therapy. Im not debating and its not my desire to offend at all. You are limited here with pb and available fittings and a value judgement of how far to go especially with a customer base that doesnt see a difference. Peace.


----------



## stillaround

Its not the role of the plumber to change a culture --just protect health and home.


----------



## nhmaster3015

ironranger said:


> Oh come on nhmaster, tell us how you really feel about pex! LOL
> 
> I don't think every homeowner is going to rush out and spend 500 plus bucks on pex tools. I'm pretty sure our livelyhood is safe.
> I buy Viega in straight 20 foot lengths. If I'm doing a smaller re-pipe in the basement it's installed straight and level, it looks great. As good as copper or better and will outlast copper by decades.
> I'll continue using it, I doubt I will ever do another copper re-pipe again. Word of mouth is a great thing around here, word is spreading and I'm booking more and more re-pipes every month. People like how it looks and how it's going to last well beyond our lifetime.


First off, a set of wirsbo pex tools 1/2, 3/4 and 1" dies is about 300 bucks. A set of 1/2 and 3/4 ring crimpers can be bought for under a hundred. The Watts tool is about 30 bucks and most of these tools can be rented by a homeowner. 

Second you have totally missed the point of my post.

Third, you have not one single bit of proof that pex will outlast copper or any other product for that matter. And if you do SHOW ME. And I want something more substantial than manufacturers propaganda. We have been fed the European bullshit for a couple years now but the truth is that most lawsuits and probles with pex in europpe NEVER get reported because their legal system is not as crappy as ours is. Most problems get paid off by the manufacturer. And if you think that's crap then you are not talking with the right people and have been brainwashed by your sales rep. 

My post was written to point out the sheer folly of selling a product just becasue it's cheaper and faster. And by the way, though you may install straight lengths of pex, when the hot water hits it it, It looks like a snake in the grass. We ain't stupid here, we know how crappy it looks no mater who installs it. Pex is lazy mans plumbing, plain and simple. Go on an sell miles of it if it makes you happy. You are only hurting your own trade and living. While you're at it, might as well eliminate all those pesky vents and slap a studor on it, be fine. :thumbsup:


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## user823

nhmaster3015 said:


> First off, a set of wirsbo pex tools 1/2, 3/4 and 1" dies is about 300 bucks. A set of 1/2 and 3/4 ring crimpers can be bought for under a hundred. The Watts tool is about 30 bucks and most of these tools can be rented by a homeowner.
> 
> Second you have totally missed the point of my post.
> 
> Third, you have not one single bit of proof that pex will outlast copper or any other product for that matter. And if you do SHOW ME. And I want something more substantial than manufacturers propaganda. We have been fed the European bullshit for a couple years now but the truth is that most lawsuits and probles with pex in europpe NEVER get reported because their legal system is not as crappy as ours is. Most problems get paid off by the manufacturer. And if you think that's crap then you are not talking with the right people and have been brainwashed by your sales rep.
> 
> My post was written to point out the sheer folly of selling a product just becasue it's cheaper and faster. And by the way, though you may install straight lengths of pex, when the hot water hits it it, It looks like a snake in the grass. We ain't stupid here, we know how crappy it looks no mater who installs it. Pex is lazy mans plumbing, plain and simple. Go on an sell miles of it if it makes you happy. You are only hurting your own trade and living. While you're at it, might as well eliminate all those pesky vents and slap a studor on it, be fine. :thumbsup:


You're wrong plain and simple. Wirsbo and Viega pex have been around for years, NO PROBLEMS. I have Viega hot and cold runs that have been installed for quite a few years hanging from dozens of basement ceilings around here and they look as straight as the day I put them in so don't even try telling me what Viega pex will do. I install in on a weekly basis and have since it was introduced. Stick to what you know, please.
If you don't like it fine, don't use it but stop the uneducated bad mouthing. I WILL POST PICTURES THIS WEEK FOR ALL TO SEE. Pictures of Viega pex hot and cold runs that have been up for years. Then will you stop with the lies?


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## SewerRatz

I just found a PB male adapter ⅜" by ½" Mips http://www.plumbingsupply.com/polyb.html I guess I am very lucky this is not a problem for me since everything up here is copper. Only time I see pex is for radiant heat systems. 

By the way my mom is on a well, and her house has all copper pipe, not a single leak in over 50 years.


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## user823

" And by the way, though you may install straight lengths of pex, when the hot water hits it it, It looks like a snake in the grass. We ain't stupid here, we know how crappy it looks no mater who installs it. Pex is lazy mans plumbing, plain and simple. Go on an sell miles of it if it makes you happy. You are only hurting your own trade and living."


I find your comments outrageous and offensive. Here we sit on this fourm, a few dozen plumbers who post on a regular basis. A few don't like pex, big whipee do dah day. Do you realize how many thousands of plumbers are using pex every day? How many millions of feet are being installed for potable water, radiant heat, snow melt etc.? For how many years now?
It's outrageous that you would think that the hundreds if not thousands of companies installing pex are hurting our trade, and to go as far as to call all of them lazy is really sad. I will continue selling miles of it and so will everyone else. You bad mouthing pex won't stop the future of our trade, it only makes you look bad. Good luck with whatever you do.


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## user4

nhmaster3015 said:


> First off, a set of wirsbo pex tools 1/2, 3/4 and 1" dies is about 300 bucks. A set of 1/2 and 3/4 ring crimpers can be bought for under a hundred. The Watts tool is about 30 bucks and most of these tools can be rented by a homeowner.
> 
> Second you have totally missed the point of my post.
> 
> Third, you have not one single bit of proof that pex will outlast copper or any other product for that matter. And if you do SHOW ME. And I want something more substantial than manufacturers propaganda. We have been fed the European bullshit for a couple years now but the truth is that most lawsuits and probles with pex in europpe NEVER get reported because their legal system is not as crappy as ours is. Most problems get paid off by the manufacturer. And if you think that's crap then you are not talking with the right people and have been brainwashed by your sales rep.
> 
> My post was written to point out the sheer folly of selling a product just becasue it's cheaper and faster. And by the way, though you may install straight lengths of pex, when the hot water hits it it, It looks like a snake in the grass. We ain't stupid here, we know how crappy it looks no mater who installs it. Pex is lazy mans plumbing, plain and simple. Go on an sell miles of it if it makes you happy. You are only hurting your own trade and living. While you're at it, might as well eliminate all those pesky vents and slap a studor on it, be fine. :thumbsup:


Actually, you don't hear about the problems they have had in Europe with PEX because they don't have a strong tort system of law there, if a lawsuit even makes it to court the manufacturer is usually limited to pay for the cost of repair, and not with the restorations costs from the damage.

The only right way to support plastic water lines that I can think of would be to continuously shelf it, so that the entire length is supported.

But then again what the hell do I know, I still don't see why people freak out over lead, Chicago has thousands of lead water services that have been installed since the 1800's and people aren't dropping dead left and right from lead poisoning, and I can wipe a joint on a lead service even if you can't get a good shut down on it.


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## nhmaster3015

Does it ever occur to you to wonder why you seem to get into so many arguments with so many highly knowledgeable plumbers? Could it be that your opinion of your abilities is highly over rated? I held masters licenses in four states when you were still screwing around in middle school. I was around when pex FIRST hit the market 30 years ago. Do you really think I am ignorant on the subject? If you do, really do than you are indeed a fool. Calling me a liar? Who in hell do you think your talking to? I have absolutly no doubt that you can plumb. For that matter, you probably do a pretty damn good job. (at least I hope so) But you have a whole lot to learn in the people skills department. 

I'll say this for the last GD time, on this forum ar any other. If you think I'm spouting PEX lies than print the damn proof. Not just your blessing. I want proof. Pex has been in continuous service in Europe for over 40 years now with hundreds of problems. You just don't read about them over here because they don't get reported over here. Even Wirsbo (the engle method inventors) will fess up to the problems they have had. 

As far as pictures go, make sure and run the hot water for a bit before you take a pic.


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## user823

nhmaster3015 said:


> Does it ever occur to you to wonder why you seem to get into so many arguments with so many highly knowledgeable plumbers? Could it be that your opinion of your abilities is highly over rated? I held masters licenses in four states when you were still screwing around in middle school. I was around when pex FIRST hit the market 30 years ago. Do you really think I am ignorant on the subject? If you do, really do than you are indeed a fool. Calling me a liar? Who in hell do you think your talking to? I have absolutly no doubt that you can plumb. For that matter, you probably do a pretty damn good job. (at least I hope so) But you have a whole lot to learn in the people skills department.
> 
> I'll say this for the last GD time, on this forum ar any other. If you think I'm spouting PEX lies than print the damn proof. Not just your blessing. I want proof. Pex has been in continuous service in Europe for over 40 years now with hundreds of problems. You just don't read about them over here because they don't get reported over here. Even Wirsbo (the engle method inventors) will fess up to the problems they have had.
> 
> As far as pictures go, make sure and run the hot water for a bit before you take a pic.



Make sure I run the hot water first? What the heck are you talking about. This stuff has been installed for quite a few years! Running hot water isn't going to change the pipe, my oh my, what is the deal here? You attack me and my work, call me lazy etc. etc. and then you expect me to kiss your ass because you're an old fart? Take a hike old man, you don't have a clue do you?
The future of our trade has passed you by. Go ahead and spend the rest of your days shouting out on the internet, keep crying wolf! LMAO!!!!!!!


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

SewerRatz said:


> I just found a PB male adapter ⅜" by ½" Mips http://www.plumbingsupply.com/polyb.html I guess I am very lucky this is not a problem for me since everything up here is copper. Only time I see pex is for radiant heat systems.
> 
> By the way my mom is on a well, and her house has all copper pipe, not a single leak in over 50 years.


thats about as close as you will get to the fitting that protech needed for an IP stop. But, I know my two main vendors dont carry them. Maybe you could find them at a DIY store like Ace, or HD.


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## nhmaster3015

I find your comments outrageous and offensive. Here we sit on this fourm, a few dozen plumbers who post on a regular basis. A few don't like pex, big whipee do dah day. Do you realize how many thousands of plumbers are using pex every day? How many millions of feet are being installed for potable water, radiant heat, snow melt etc.? For how many years now?
It's outrageous that you would think that the hundreds if not thousands of companies installing pex are hurting our trade, and to go as far as to call all of them lazy is really sad. I will continue selling miles of it and so will everyone else. You bad mouthing pex won't stop the future of our trade, it only makes you look bad. Good luck with whatever you do.[/quote]

In the land of the blind the one eyed man shall be king:thumbsup:

You just plain don't get it and never will. I've tried to explain how this (and other) crap is ruining the trade, but you are so single minded that you just will not see. 

All those that think I'm making myself look bad please vote now:laughing:


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## nhmaster3015

tell ya what rangee.. I'll be on the chat tonight around 9. Why not show up and see who's the "old man" You are fast wearing out your welcome on this and the other forum due to your abusive language. I have never, ever directly insulted you and I find your insults most distasteful. If you can not behave like a mature adult you belong somewhere else. We disagree here, a lot, but we try to keep it civil.


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## user823

nhmaster3015 said:


> I find your comments outrageous and offensive. Here we sit on this fourm, a few dozen plumbers who post on a regular basis. A few don't like pex, big whipee do dah day. Do you realize how many thousands of plumbers are using pex every day? How many millions of feet are being installed for potable water, radiant heat, snow melt etc.? For how many years now?
> It's outrageous that you would think that the hundreds if not thousands of companies installing pex are hurting our trade, and to go as far as to call all of them lazy is really sad. I will continue selling miles of it and so will everyone else. You bad mouthing pex won't stop the future of our trade, it only makes you look bad. Good luck with whatever you do.


In the land of the blind the one eyed man shall be king:thumbsup:

You just plain don't get it and never will. I've tried to explain how this (and other) crap is ruining the trade, but you are so single minded that you just will not see. 

All those that think I'm making myself look bad please vote now:laughing:[/quote]

Sure, you want a vote. Too bad the THOUSAND OF OTHERS WHO INSTALL PEX on a daily basis can't vote right? I didn't start the name calling on this one, YOU DID! I don't care what you think, you're wrong and that's it.


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## Phat Cat

> All those that think I'm making myself look bad please vote now:laughing:


NHMaster - I vote you have a beer! Oh, not that kinda vote. It's Saturday night and the fights begin.


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## user823

nhmaster3015 said:


> tell ya what rangee.. I'll be on the chat tonight around 9. Why not show up and see who's the "old man" You are fast wearing out your welcome on this and the other forum due to your abusive language. I have never, ever directly insulted you and I find your insults most distasteful. If you can not behave like a mature adult you belong somewhere else. We disagree here, a lot, but we try to keep it civil.


And what is this?


"a snake in the grass. We ain't stupid here, we know how crappy it looks no mater who installs it. Pex is lazy mans plumbing, plain and simple. Go on an sell miles of it if it makes you happy. You are only hurting your own trade and living. While you're at it, might as well eliminate all those pesky vents and slap a studor on it, be fine."


Oh no, no insults there right? You just insulted me and anyone else who is using pex. You said I am hurting my trade because I use pex. Kiss my pipe wrench NH, you talk from both ends and they both stink.


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## Phat Cat

I vote for IR to have a beer too! Guys, you need to chill . . .


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## Ron

OK this thread has gone on too long, lets move on.


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