# tracpipe and other csst



## Protech

I don't do as much gas as some so I was wondering what what the gas gurus think about csst. Will it stand the test of time?


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## Redwood

Sure!
Just don't put a nail in it!:whistling2:


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## richfield

it's great for reno's or if you need to add a line after the fact. I prefer to thread black iron throughout but sometimes it's not practical so I use csst. I see it installed with plastic J-clips(used for pex) a lot and it fails inspection. so check with your code because mine says you need to use metal clips. I think it will stand the test of time and if a nail is put through it... just heat the nail up with your torch until it falls out :whistling2: :no:


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## Cal

I've used quite a bit of trac ,,, Am VERY happy with it ! Sure a nail can go through it ,, however we learn that as you run it in a vertical wall ,,,, leave it somewhat loose so it can move a little . Otherwise it really is good stuff !!

IMO

Cal


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## WestCoastPlumber

I like Trac, especially when I am installing tankless. I do agree, snak it loose in the walls and when the inspector calls you on it, fight him. Inspectors here want to see the book on it, to check for approvals and all.

I don't see any problems with it as long as it does not get hit my lightening or something. (Heard something bad about that somewhere)

electricians need to take a section of wrap off it to properly ground.


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## Scott K

Inside a house I will run threaded steel (black iron) 99% of the time. The other 1% goes to Copper when I can't run steel. Steel offers several benefits:

1) Durable & tough - can take a beating
2) Reliable & proven
3) Challenging, yet rewarding to install at times (requires some planning in tight installations for wrenching)
4) Common - every supply house will carry fittings & pipe. 
5) Safe - you can't put a hole in it (well, unless you're doing something serious but it'd be the last product out there certified for gas use that would give up the ghost). 

The only thing that irks me about steel is that a lot of the steel the supply houses carry is made in China. But otherwise I feel a sense of duty and safety when I install it over other products in the houses I work in.


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## 22rifle

WestCoastPlumber said:


> electricians need to take a section of wrap off it to properly ground.



NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Never, ever let an electrician ground to CSST pipe. That's extremely dangerous.

The ground must be to a fitting or to steel pipe that is connected to the CSST. But never to the CSST.


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## Redwood

Have a good read here...
http://www.gastite.com/include/languages/english/downloads/pdfs/TB2008_01.pdf

and here...
http://www.toolbase.org/pdf/techinv/csst_lightningconcerns.pdf

Better understand it or, you shouldn't be installing it!


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## uaplumber

I love gastite. You can make it look really good if you try. It cuts install times very well which makes up for the higher cost of materials. In new construction saving time is always a blessing. I am also moving away from the home-run style of installing pex. I am using Uponor flow though manifolds now. Run a 3/4 main through the home and branch where you need to. Put an end manifold on the cold or even tie it back into the main. Run the hot back to the tank for a recirc or just plug it for future. Cuts install times that much more and really looks better than the spaghetti of a home run system.


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## 22rifle

Redwood said:


> Have a good read here...
> http://www.gastite.com/include/languages/english/downloads/pdfs/TB2008_01.pdf
> 
> and here...
> http://www.toolbase.org/pdf/techinv/csst_lightningconcerns.pdf
> 
> Better understand it or, you shouldn't be installing it!


A pertinent quote that backs up what I said:



> For attachment to the CSST gas piping system, a single bonding clamp must be attached to either a segment
> of steel pipe or to a rigid pipe component._ The corrugated stainless steel tubing portion of the gas piping
> system shall not be used as the point of attachment of the bonding conductor at any location along its length
> under any circumstances._


The emphasis was theirs.


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## Tankless

22rifle said:


> NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
> 
> Never, ever let an electrician ground to CSST pipe. That's extremely dangerous.
> 
> The ground must be to a fitting or to steel pipe that is connected to the CSST. But never to the CSST.


 
100% correct. Never ......ever bond to the actual CSST. You will cruch / kink the pipe in no time. Trac pipe...is IMO not a great product. I don't care for the fitting design, it is annoying. Ward flex.....no experience, I use Gas Tite only. I've ran at least a few thousand feet of the stuff and never once has there ever been an issue. Not even one little leak. You would have a really hard time finding me threading pipe. It happends but it's rare. Per manu specs, csst needs room for xpansion inspectors can go to hell. I had a guy a few years ago stand there and tell me that wasn't gas pipe and it wasn't allowed. I called him a few really foul mouthed names and very inpolitley got him off my job after I realized he was serious. That was the only time I have ever been rude to an inspector, I just have no patience for stupid people. CSST is here to stay and it's A-OK:laughing:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Protech said:


> I don't do as much gas as some so I was wondering what what the gas gurus think about csst. Will it stand the test of time?


 

I only have 40' of this installed under my name, it's WardFlex back in 94 and I know the house where I installed if it blows up. 


The house transferred names so I'm off the hook....not unless someone can find me. 


I dislike the piping system because I've seen dogs chew through it leading to a gas water heater, I've seen it get holes rubbed through the covering and the tubing itself, I've seen people use Dawn dish detergent, only to figure out years later that chemical in the detergent slowly disintegrates the piping allowing it to leak.

It's fast and easy and I'd rather follow what I know will survive the test of time, black iron.

SCH80 metal piping takes a lot to malfunction/break/deteriorate.


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## WestCoastPlumber

you guy's are 100% correct, no bonding to the csst. only to steel or fittings. I haven't had to bond any of my csst, seeing as I use it just for my tankless installs and I use it only under the house, I go in with steel and exit with steel, trac is never showing.

I am annoyed trying to remember who said to remove the sleeve to ground, I could have sworn that was the topic of discussion, it makes since not to ground to the csst itself as the pipe is very thin. This was a few years ago so maybe things got mixed up in the old head.

I will remember who's mouth that came out of in the middle of the night :thumbup:


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## Tankless

> no bonding to the csst. only to steel or fittings.


Well, and this is just being on the anal side of things, The bond is sopposed to be on the brass fitting of the CSST, not on the steel of the meter....trunk...branch....and of course not the steel of the appliance nipple. Are inspectors down in your area requiring the bond? Or are they just happy to see a permit was pulled?

Up here, they don't have a clue about any of this sort of thing. Well, one guy does....I taught him!!

http://gastite.com/include/languages.../TB2007_01.pdf

see fig. 1http://www.contractortalk.com/showthread.php?t=34546


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## Redwood

Tankless said:


> Well, and this is just being on the anal side of things, The bond is sopposed to be on the brass fitting of the CSST, not on the steel of the meter....trunk...branch....and of course not the steel of the appliance nipple. Are inspectors down in your area requiring the bond? Or are they just happy to see a permit was pulled?
> 
> Up here, they don't have a clue about any of this sort of thing. Well, one guy does....I taught him!!
> 
> http://gastite.com/include/languages.../TB2007_01.pdf
> 
> see fig. 1


The link you posted is old and was superceded by this one.
http://www.gastite.com/include/languages/english/downloads/pdfs/TB2008_01.pdf


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## Tankless

Thanks!

Do you see the differences between the two? This whole ordeal had become and is just so lame. In my post of 06-07 TB the bond had to be made directly to the nut of the brass terminal. Someone realized that was a stupid idea and now it says it's ok to just simply bond to a portion of iron pipe. THis is one of those things that I pisses me off, in that I feel strongly in what I know to be accurate and safe, verses this stupid lawsuit enforced code addition that won't do a lick of good. But code is code and I don't make the rules.


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## WestCoastPlumber

Tankless said:


> Well, and this is just being on the anal side of things, The bond is sopposed to be on the brass fitting of the CSST, not on the steel of the meter....trunk...branch....and of course not the steel of the appliance nipple. Are inspectors down in your area requiring the bond? Or are they just happy to see a permit was pulled?
> 
> Up here, they don't have a clue about any of this sort of thing. Well, one guy does....I taught him!!
> 
> http://gastite.com/include/languages.../TB2007_01.pdf
> 
> see fig. 1


 
I was tagged on a 75 gallon in Santa Monica for not bonding, even when 2 months before the place was re-piped and the inspector approved it. The repipe was done by another company. They left he 20 year old 75 gallon installed and incorrectly installed the Watts 210, so I called the inspector on it, and int he end went to his supervisor to straighten it out because I didn't want a correction, because I don't have time to go back and fix things, so they had me leave the 210 off and inspected it, well, the inspector called me on "Bonding" and the last 6" of my 1" pipe were not insulated. 

The supervisors both agreed the "Approved" installation was not correct and should have failed.

So, after all the hell I went through to not get a correction notice, they gave me one anyways. I spoke to a few inspector friends of mine, one which used to be the head inspector for los angeles city, and he said it is an electrical code issue,new construction, and should have been done on the re-pipe side, if anything, not water heater change out. 

They just had it out for me. Los Angeles does not require Bonding, neither does Torrance.

City of Santa Monica also requires a cross connection specialist go in and approve re-pipes. So when you pull a permit for a repipe, expect 2 seperate inspections in Santa Monica.


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## Tankless

I don't even like going to SM anymore. That place is worse that San Fransisco.


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## DiRtY pLuMbEr

*thank god i'm on the east coast*



WestCoastPlumber said:


> I like Trac, especially when I am installing tankless. I do agree, snak it loose in the walls and when the inspector calls you on it, fight him. Inspectors here want to see the book on it, to check for approvals and all.
> 
> I don't see any problems with it as long as it does not get hit my lightening or something. (Heard something bad about that somewhere)
> 
> electricians need to take a section of wrap off it to properly ground.


 
ARE YOU  SERIOUS?!?!?! This is why CSST is on a temporary ban in Massachusetts right now. You never leave any stainless exposed indoor or outdoor. I was a manufacturers rep for a CSST company for 1-1/2 years. I certified over 1000 people with my product. You should be putting the bonding clamp on the first FITTING of CSST or the FITTING that is closest to the electrical panel. NEVER CONNECT THE BONDING CLAMP TO THE CSST!!!  IDIOT!! Most codes in New England are saying that you (the licensed plumber and csst trained and certified) have to install the bonding clamp and run #6 grounding wire to the electrical panel, but the licensed electrician has to connect it the panel. If the black pipe system is already grounded prior to installing the CSST, then there is no need to ground the new CSST. NEVER ground to a water pipe either or secure it while running it vertical. If you ask why not, go get re-certified.:thumbsup:


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## muck

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/csst-banned-1443/


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## Kyle181

Ive used wardflex and tracpipe, and i think i like wardflex better now just because of the brass split rings are bigger and easier to work with, but i think they are all pretty much the same and all good


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## WestCoastPlumber

DiRtY pLuMbEr said:


> ARE YOU  SERIOUS?!?!?! This is why CSST is on a temporary ban in Massachusetts right now. You never leave any stainless exposed indoor or outdoor. I was a manufacturers rep for a CSST company for 1-1/2 years. I certified over 1000 people with my product. You should be putting the bonding clamp on the first FITTING of CSST or the FITTING that is closest to the electrical panel. NEVER CONNECT THE BONDING CLAMP TO THE CSST!!!  IDIOT!! Most codes in New England are saying that you (the licensed plumber and csst trained and certified) have to install the bonding clamp and run #6 grounding wire to the electrical panel, but the licensed electrician has to connect it the panel. If the black pipe system is already grounded prior to installing the CSST, then there is no need to ground the new CSST. NEVER ground to a water pipe either or secure it while running it vertical. If you ask why not, go get re-certified.:thumbsup:


we already spoke about this, it is old news


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## WestCoastPlumber

DiRtY pLuMbEr said:


> ARE YOU  SERIOUS?!?!?! This is why CSST is on a temporary ban in Massachusetts right now. You never leave any stainless exposed indoor or outdoor. I was a manufacturers rep for a CSST company for 1-1/2 years. I certified over 1000 people with my product. You should be putting the bonding clamp on the first FITTING of CSST or the FITTING that is closest to the electrical panel. NEVER CONNECT THE BONDING CLAMP TO THE CSST!!!  IDIOT!! Most codes in New England are saying that you (the licensed plumber and csst trained and certified) have to install the bonding clamp and run #6 grounding wire to the electrical panel, but the licensed electrician has to connect it the panel. If the black pipe system is already grounded prior to installing the CSST, then there is no need to ground the new CSST. NEVER ground to a water pipe either or secure it while running it vertical. If you ask why not, go get re-certified.:thumbsup:


 


you guy's are 100% correct, no bonding to the csst. only to steel or fittings. I haven't had to bond any of my csst, seeing as I use it just for my tankless installs and I use it only under the house, I go in with steel and exit with steel, trac is never showing.

I am annoyed trying to remember who said to remove the sleeve to ground, I could have sworn that was the topic of discussion, it makes since not to ground to the csst itself as the pipe is very thin. This was a few years ago so maybe things got mixed up in the old head.

I will remember who's mouth that came out of in the middle of the night :thumbup:
__________________


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## Tankless

DiRtY pLuMbEr said:


> ARE YOU  SERIOUS?!?!?! This is why CSST is on a temporary ban in Massachusetts right now. You never leave any stainless exposed indoor or outdoor. I was a manufacturers rep for a CSST company for 1-1/2 years. I certified over 1000 people with my product. You should be putting the bonding clamp on the first FITTING of CSST or the FITTING that is closest to the electrical panel. NEVER CONNECT THE BONDING CLAMP TO THE CSST!!!  *IDIOT!!* Most codes in New England are saying that you (the licensed plumber and csst trained and certified) have to install the bonding clamp and run #6 grounding wire to the electrical panel, but the licensed electrician has to connect it the panel. If the black pipe system is already grounded prior to installing the CSST, then there is no need to ground the new CSST. NEVER ground to a water pipe either or secure it while running it vertical. If you ask why not, go get re-certified.:thumbsup:


 
Hay, dirty dumbass guess what? you're wrong. Should have been trained by a real pro....Now you have infested as you say 1000 ppl out there....maybe you are the reason it got banned because you are teaching plumbers that they need to do the bond and not an EC. If you knew the entire CSST product line, you would know GasTite (made in MASS) has no SS exposed. Another geinues is amoung us....please tell us something we don't know. And don't insult members on this forum. It really makes you look like an a s s hole


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## DiRtY pLuMbEr

*Calling all CSST installers*



Tankless said:


> Hay, dirty dumbass guess what? you're wrong. Should have been trained by a real pro....Now you have infested as you say 1000 ppl out there....maybe you are the reason it got banned because you are teaching plumbers that they need to do the bond and not an EC. If you knew the entire CSST product line, you would know GasTite (made in MASS) has no SS exposed. Another geinues is amoung us....please tell us something we don't know. And don't insult members on this forum. It really makes you look like an a s s hole


 
Hey Dickless, guess what, I'm right. In Massachusetts, where there is a conflict between local codes and the manufacturers installation guide and the mass modifications, the modifications take precedence. If the question is not in the modifications then refer to the installation guide. Take a company like Wardflex. Why would wardflex offer plumbers a UL-467-approved clamp? Hmmm...Maybe because they are the ones that have to install it. When you get Wardflex certified, you get trained in Bonding and Grounding of the CSST. Read the 3rd paragraph down. A "qualified person", not electrician. You become a qualified person once you take 
the certification class. http://www.wardflex.com/images/Technical_Bulletin_WF2008.pdf
 PS. don't insult memebers on this forum, especially when you have no idea what you are talking about because it makes you look like an idiot, not an a s s hole.:laughing: 
WestCoast, I do appologize if I came at you a little strong. I did not see the date on the article. I do appologize. I just get really annoyed that there are plumbers out there that do not know the reasons why you have to install things the way that the manufacturer says you should.


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## Tankless

DiRtY pLuMbEr said:


> Hey Dickless, guess what, I'm right. In Massachusetts, where there is a conflict between local codes and the manufacturers installation guide and the mass modifications, the modifications take precedence. If the question is not in the modifications then refer to the installation guide. Take a company like Wardflex. Why would wardflex offer plumbers a UL-467-approved clamp? Hmmm...Maybe because they are the ones that have to install it. When you get Wardflex certified, you get trained in Bonding and Grounding of the CSST. Read the 3rd paragraph down. A "qualified person", not electrician. You become a qualified person once you take
> the certification class. http://www.wardflex.com/images/Technical_Bulletin_WF2008.pdf
> PS. don't insult memebers on this forum, especially when you have no idea what you are talking about because it makes you look like an idiot, not an a s s hole.:laughing:
> WestCoast, I do appologize if I came at you a little strong. I did not see the date on the article. I do appologize. I just get really annoyed that there are plumbers out there that do not know the reasons why you have to install things the way that the manufacturer says you should.


Dickless huh? Wow, how original. You must be one of them smart guys I hear so much about on the East coast. You obviously know nothing about electrical requirements. I could care less what some retarded manufacturer says...especially Wardflex. Class or no class plumbers are not allowed to bond CSST PERIOD. Per the NEC only qualified personal are allowed to do electrical work. Taking some retarded training class that is almost useless does not make a plumber a "qualified" person. To be a qualified person doing electrical work, that person must be under the supervision of at least a journeymen electrician or electrical contractor. Why a manu includes a bonding clamp is a gift for the ELECTRICIAN not the plumber. So weather you think your wrong or not, I could give a **** as you do not affect any money I make therefor you are useless to me. To come on a forum that no one knows you from and start blasting a poster really tells alot about you. No class looser. Now run along, the adults are talking.:laughing:


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## DiRtY pLuMbEr

Tankless said:


> Dickless huh? Wow, how original. You must be one of them smart guys I hear so much about on the East coast. You obviously know nothing about electrical requirements. I could care less what some retarded manufacturer says...especially Wardflex. Class or no class plumbers are not allowed to bond CSST PERIOD. Per the NEC only qualified personal are allowed to do electrical work. Taking some retarded training class that is almost useless does not make a plumber a "qualified" person. To be a qualified person doing electrical work, that person must be under the supervision of at least a journeymen electrician or electrical contractor. Why a manu includes a bonding clamp is a gift for the ELECTRICIAN not the plumber. So weather you think your wrong or not, I could give a **** as you do not affect any money I make therefor you are useless to me. To come on a forum that no one knows you from and start blasting a poster really tells alot about you. No class looser. Now run along, the adults are talking.:laughing:


Wow... You know, graduating the 5th grade will drastically improve your spelling. Your handyman license I guess covers you for all trades, huh. Just to let you know, the class that I taught, the plumbers recieved a card that is nessesary to purchase and install CSST (just one manufacturer though). PS. If you knew anything about CSST manufacturers, you would know that Wardflex has the highest overall flow rating as well as it's the most flexible and it's the only dual seal on the market, but you probably knew that. Keep using your Tracpipe, enjoy it when it whips around the coil and slashes your leg open and you start crying like a little baby  . Go catch a wave, and hang ten bro...:laughing: .


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## uaplumber

Good morning DirtyPlumber.

Just a thought from an observer, if you put insults in your posts people will respond in kind. Maybe a little bit of adult behaviour from the start would prevent the crap this post is turning into. There is no place on this forum for the type of "picture" you have drawn. There are women on this site as well as some children reading the posts. (some of us would like our children to learn the trade early). Please refrain from the nastyness, or find a different site to visit.

Just my 2 cents. My views are mine alone. I have no say in the running of this site.


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## Ron

Lets all respond in a professional way on here, no more insults please. Dirty Plumber, tankless is a Licensed Plumber, we don't allow handymen on this site.


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## service guy

I agree, enough with the trash-talk. It makes whomever's spouting it look unprofessional.


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## Tankless

Well, I agree. My intent was to offer accurate information. It's fine for others to disagree, I have no issue with that. I will and to my own mistake attempt to correct inaccurate info that is being offered as I understand it. As for this post...I am done with it.


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## Bill

Lets watch the language, and the bashing. If this thing continues I will close the thread!!

Like Ron said, lets all act like adults. I dont want to see any more of this talk.


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## gusty60

uaplumber said:


> Good morning DirtyPlumber.
> 
> Just a thought from an observer, if you put insults in your posts people will respond in kind. Maybe a little bit of adult behaviour from the start would prevent the crap this post is turning into. There is no place on this forum for the type of "picture" you have drawn. There are women on this site as well as some children reading the posts. (some of us would like our children to learn the trade early). Please refrain from the nastyness, or find a different site to visit.
> 
> Just my 2 cents. My views are mine alone. I have no say in the running of this site.


Thank you!


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