# plastic pipe locating



## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Old school = witching rods

New schools = ?

What are you using out there other than witching rods? I would like to get answers for water lines as well as sewers.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Sewer is easy - run a camera with a transmitter in it. 


For water lines I've heard Ken (Protech) talk about something called a "thumper"(?). I guess you run a very slow flow of water and produce a water hammer effect. You can then locate the line with listening device. I don't have any experience with it but that's how I understood the concept.







Paul


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

rocksteady said:


> Sewer is easy - run a camera with a transmitter in it.
> 
> 
> For water lines I've heard Ken (Protech) talk about something called a "thumper"(?). I guess you run a very slow flow of water and produce a water hammer effect. You can then locate the line with listening device. I don't have any experience with it but that's how I understood the concept.
> ...



I have seen pics of them but I don't know of anyone that has the balls to use them. I would be afraid of blowing something loose. If someone has one I don't mind being schooled on my ignorance to them.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

I've seen guys have some luck with a pipehorn, but you really have to know how to use it.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Killertoiletspider said:


> I've seen guys have some luck with a pipehorn, but you really have to know how to use it.


What were they using in conjunction with the Pipehorn?


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## HOMER (Jun 5, 2011)

ground penetrating radar..

I'm not using it, but it is available


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

In my experience, you want to find a plastic pipe?

Give a drywaller some screws and a few beers and he'll locate it all the way down the line for ya...


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

GPR is great if you have $25,000 or more. Jetter first.

Plus, every foot deep the material needs to be 1" diameter. Then again there is a way around that too.

It will be a necessity in the near future.


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## [email protected] (Apr 17, 2012)

like they said camera and locater for sewer. as far as waterlines i had one i couldnt find about six months ago that i couldnt locate in a commercial parking lot and deep under the loading dock. shut the main water off at the building and the meter then had a guy come out and we hit it with air and used a listening device, was right on the money but there ended up being 9 leaks in a 600ft stretch had to bust concrete for almost every one of them. btw there was a hb in the middle of the parking lot in a meter box thats how we got air into it not sure why it was put there though.


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## Plumb Bob (Mar 9, 2011)

MarkToo said:


> In my experience, you want to find a plastic pipe?
> 
> Give a drywaller some screws and a few beers and he'll locate it all the way down the line for ya...


I just experienced this last week, they realized they missed the stud and hit my wm drain. They were nice enough to call me


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## [email protected] (Apr 17, 2012)

Plumb Bob said:


> I just experienced this last week, they realized they missed the stud and hit my wm drain. They were nice enough to call me


 wow they actually called a told u that amazing. i got into it with another sup just last week because i just did a groundwork on T.I installed 40 floorsinks and some bathrooms, after it passed off and they poured concrete everyone got there lifts in there and some of them decided they could use thier lifts to push my luminators out of the way that were covering my vent pipes i wasnt to happy about that. hey to me its not such a big deal if u accidentally hit a pipe and come get me it happens, but if they hit a couple and then act like it never happened i take that as a kind of disrespect and i explained that to them and they ended up owning up to it. i wasnt at all trying to be a jackhole i just want to be fair if i did ssomething to aanother trade accidentally id immidiately tell them.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Gettinit said:


> What were they using in conjunction with the Pipehorn?


Nothing.

Set the box down on top of the incoming line and mark the signal it induces, and hope like hell it is what you think it is.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Nothing.
> 
> Set the box down on top of the incoming line and mark the signal it induces, and hope like hell it is what you think it is.


With plastic pipe?


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Gettinit said:


> With plastic pipe?


Yep.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

I will have to give it a try. How many Watts is your transmitter? Mine is 5.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I have one to do tomorrow under the parking lot at Pizza Hut.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Gettinit said:


> I will have to give it a try. How many Watts is your transmitter? Mine is 5.


I don't have a pipehorn, I can't stand those things.

I know a guy that is self employed as a utility locator, he has about twenty different locating machines, he sold me my RD 4000.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

I have Vivax VlocPro.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

If there are no fittings you can push a tracer wire quite a ways!:thumbup:


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

deerslayer said:


> If there are no fittings you can push a tracer wire quite a ways!:thumbup:


Jameson baby! Or do you have one you use?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

SlickRick said:


> I have one to do tomorrow under the parking lot at Pizza Hut.


Another successful mission, and they have another one 20' away that I have marked for tomorrow or Wed.

Too much primer pooled up behind the bell coupling.

I couldn't get a wire or tape in it. So I drilled holes around the expansion joint until I had dry holes, then I just pinpointed it with my XLT 30.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

SlickRick said:


> Another successful mission, and they have another one 20' away that I have marked for tomorrow or Wed.
> 
> Too much primer pooled up behind the bell coupling.
> 
> I couldn't get a wire or tape in it. So I drilled holes around the expansion joint until I had dry holes, then I just pinpointed it with my XLT 30.


Why all the holes? Did you need to use a trace gas?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Gettinit said:


> Why all the holes? Did you need to use a trace gas?


I didn't have anyway to trace the line, I start drilling holes until they are dry, then my search area in narrowed to a small area.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

SlickRick said:


> I didn't have anyway to trace the line, I start drilling holes until they are dry, then my search area in narrowed to a small area.


:blush:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Gettinit said:


> :blush:


Did I say something that didn't make sense?


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

SlickRick said:


> Did I say something that didn't make sense?


I should have realized why you drilled the holes, nothing more.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

There was water coming from another expansion joint @ 20' away, the smartest thing I did was have the Mgr. come out so I could show him the leak I found before I cut it out, just encase there was a second leak. And sure enough there is. That would have been a sticky moment.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

SlickRick said:


> There was water coming from another expansion joint @ 20' away, the smartest thing I did was have the Mgr. come out so I could show him the leak I found before I cut it out, just encase there was a second leak. And sure enough there is. That would have been a sticky moment.


It's rare but it happens. 

I had one and the owner was watching the whole time. The excavator found the pipe and still didn't see the leak. I took the shovel and dug out beside it and there it was. Had me wondering for a bit. If he didn't see it he would not have believed me. Most people I come across think its voodoo. Especially when I break out the copper wire as a witching rod. I dig out many of my leak detection's for other plumbers because they don't ever dig far enough.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

*Pipe puller*

I'm on a 1" poly slab leak. It's been a pita for me because it's every bit of 85 ft. long and towards one end of a loop it makes a hard turn like a question mark. Been tricky to find end of loop because fish tape won't make the hard turn. I suspect kinked line. The outside walls are the styrofoam/concrete. I've had to use chipping hammer to find a suspect manifold. A friend says he uses a thing that sounds similar to chinese finger cuffs to pull the line. Anybody seen this that can be used to pull piping? He's even used it to pull copper. Gonna try it tomorrow hopefully. I do a lot of slab leak replacements but this one has been rougher than all so far.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Epox said:


> I'm on a 1" poly slab leak. It's been a pita for me because it's every bit of 85 ft. long and towards one end of a loop it makes a hard turn like a question mark. Been tricky to find end of loop because fish tape won't make the hard turn. I suspect kinked line. The outside walls are the styrofoam/concrete. I've had to use chipping hammer to find a suspect manifold. A friend says he uses a thing that sounds similar to chinese finger cuffs to pull the line. Anybody seen this that can be used to pull piping? He's even used it to pull copper. Gonna try it tomorrow hopefully. I do a lot of slab leak replacements but this one has been rougher than all so far.


I use trace gas for poly lines. I am leery about those pulling machines. If I can't see where it is going or what may or may not be touching it I will not do it.


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## SHAUN C (Feb 16, 2011)

Epox said:


> I'm on a 1" poly slab leak. It's been a pita for me because it's every bit of 85 ft. long and towards one end of a loop it makes a hard turn like a question mark. Been tricky to find end of loop because fish tape won't make the hard turn. I suspect kinked line. The outside walls are the styrofoam/concrete. I've had to use chipping hammer to find a suspect manifold. A friend says he uses a thing that sounds similar to chinese finger cuffs to pull the line. Anybody seen this that can be used to pull piping? He's even used it to pull copper. Gonna try it tomorrow hopefully. I do a lot of slab leak replacements but this one has been rougher than all so far.


Can you just cap it at the manifold and reroute the line overhead?


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Reroutes would have been a major problem due to the high end construction of this house and was 87ft. from end to end. I did finally verify the hidden end of loop and was able to pull the 1" poly surprisingly easy and went back with 1" Super Pex. Got it done but the bill is gonna be up there and H.O. is aware and just thankful we didn't do any major damage to house. 
I would like to know more about the trace gas mentioned but this hidden loop was poored in 6" of concrete in the walls so not sure anything would like that would have surfaced through all that.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Gettinit said:


> Jameson baby! Or do you have one you use?[/QUOTE
> 
> ? I have no idea what you are talking about? I usually push a wire or fishtape in the plastic and call a local service we use to locate they clamp on it and tell us where the pipe is. Now we have a ridgid brick transmitter so I will do it myself next time! If we are looking for a specific leak for repair we usually still trace the line to get as close as possible! Then we use sound and drilling to locate usually, once again we call a specialist!


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Epox said:


> Reroutes would have been a major problem due to the high end construction of this house and was 87ft. from end to end. I did finally verify the hidden end of loop and was able to pull the 1" poly surprisingly easy and went back with 1" Super Pex. Got it done but the bill is gonna be up there and H.O. is aware and just thankful we didn't do any major damage to house.
> I would like to know more about the trace gas mentioned but this hidden loop was poored in 6" of concrete in the walls so not sure anything would like that would have surfaced through all that.


 It would have made it through.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

deerslayer said:


> Gettinit said:
> 
> 
> > Jameson baby! Or do you have one you use?[/QUOTE
> ...


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

I usually call the guy with the ground penetrating radar. I think the rigs about $17000. He can give you depth, type of pipe size locate other pipes like conduit. Saves alot of time!


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

pilot light said:


> I usually call the guy with the ground penetrating radar. I think the rigs about $17000. He can give you depth, type of pipe size locate other pipes like conduit. Saves alot of time!


Underground detective has GPR in our area and it must be the operator because they are useless with it. I have had them looking for pipe as big as 10" with it and they have yet to locate anything with it for me! They do great with other methods but not GPR.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

deerslayer said:


> Underground detective has GPR in our area and it must be the operator because they are useless with it. I have had them looking for pipe as big as 10" with it and they have yet to locate anything with it for me! They do great with other methods but not GPR.


 The guy I get is a fellow plumber and was trained @ the factory. It takes time and making sure the buggy is managed in the correct fashion. He is pretty good.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

pilot light said:


> The guy I get is a fellow plumber and was trained @ the factory. It takes time and making sure the buggy is managed in the correct fashion. He is pretty good.


Soil is a *BIG* factor. But he still should have been able to see the difference in the soil patterns on his display.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Gettinit said:


> Soil is a *BIG* factor. But he still should have been able to see the difference in the soil patterns on his display.


 
That is the typical answer this soil is to compacted, old, wet, dry to tell anything!


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

He should have noticed the soil change in the display. I would try looking for an engineering firm for those big jobs, but the usually charge for the whole day even if it takes a couple of hours.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

If it's a "have to" I will keep that in mind but cost is always an issue as you well know.

I have a job scheduled in the morning with a track camera CO. they charge $172 an hr for a 2 man crew and all the cool cams. Our normal locating service charges $250 an hr with one man? Kind of an ironic difference?


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Nice to make a extra coin off of a sub every now and again. Take it and add to your retirement....:thumbup:


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

I have water witched with coat hangers as well! Not bad! :thumbup:


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Big drawback on witching is it will pick up any ditch line. You definitely have to get all of the utilities located first.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Gettinit said:


> Big drawback on witching is it will pick up any ditch line. You definitely have to get all of the utilities located first.


 Yes sir! It also is difficult when diagnosing pool deck plumbing leaks!


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

I would never dream of using it for any other reason other than ditches.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Gettinit said:


> I would never dream of using it for any other reason other than ditches.


 Excellent call!


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

What grade do I get for being 3' off on my 2nd leak at Pizza Hut. It was a very small pin hole on the bottom of a tee 3' deep. Frickin hwy about 40' away. I had to have the water back on by 10:30. It was just a PITA. Looking back I should have gone ahead and put a fish tape in and marked the line on the first one, but I let assumption ( even though I knew it was a possibility) that there was only one leak and time pressure of getting them open for the night rush put a kink in my better judgement. Same thing this morn. get there at 7 locate the leak, go back after 1:30 to make the repair. Did I mention I have been sick?


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

SlickRick said:


> What grade do I get for being 3' off on my 2nd leak at Pizza Hut. It was a very small pin hole on the bottom of a tee 3' deep. Frickin hwy about 40' away. I had to have the water back on by 10:30. It was just a PITA. Looking back I should have gone ahead and put a fish tape in and marked the line on the first one, but I let assumption ( even though I knew it was a possibility) that there was only one leak and time pressure of getting them open for the night rush put a kink in my better judgement. Same thing this morn. get there at 7 locate the leak, go back after 1:30 to make the repair. Did I mention I have been sick?


A+ for finding it and repairing it. 

The noise factor is what prompted me to go trace gas.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Gettinit said:


> A+ for finding it and repairing it.
> 
> The noise factor is what prompted me to go trace gas.


Thanks, are you going to tell me more about trace gas method, either public or PM.?


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## jc-htownplumber (Feb 29, 2012)

MarkToo said:


> In my experience, you want to find a plastic pipe?
> 
> Give a drywaller some screws and a few beers and he'll locate it all the way down the line for ya...


I had one use my vent line as a stud


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## east-indy (Mar 11, 2012)

jc-htownplumber said:


> I had one use my vent line as a stud


That's awsome!! :laughing:


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## Adamche (Feb 10, 2012)

Try this....


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## TTopPlumbing (Jun 8, 2012)

HOMER said:


> ground penetrating radar..
> 
> I'm not using it, but it is available


About $10,000.00 For GPR. I have run a metal fish tape down a plastic sewer line and then hooked it up to a tracing pulse, then was able to locate it with depth just like a sewer camera with transmitter.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

TTopPlumbing said:


> About $10,000.00 For GPR. I have run a metal fish tape down a plastic sewer line and then hooked it up to a tracing pulse, then was able to locate it with depth just like a sewer camera with transmitter.


What do you do for your water mains. It is not unheard of around here for it to be 1000'.


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## TTopPlumbing (Jun 8, 2012)

Gettinit said:


> What do you do for your water mains. It is not unheard of around here for it to be 1000'.


Cap them off and pump them full of helium, then locate the helium with a sniffer.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

TTopPlumbing said:


> Cap them off and pump them full of helium, then locate the helium with a sniffer.


Helium is on the way out. I went a different route for trace gas. It has been a blessing though. I prefer to know where the line is first rather than waste the gas. What type of flow device do you use?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Leak on a 400' pvc water service tomorrow, should be fun. Trace gas sure would be handy.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Gettinit said:


> Helium is on the way out. I went a different route for trace gas. It has been a blessing though. I prefer to know where the line is first rather than waste the gas. What type of flow device do you use?


 
What gas you using? What kinda pressure is required and what kinda sniffer is used?


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

deerslayer said:


> What gas you using? What kinda pressure is required and what kinda sniffer is used?


I use 95% nitrogen/5% hydrogen. You just need to overcome city water pressure. I think its electronic....no sensor to change.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Gettinit said:


> I use 95% nitrogen/5% hydrogen. You just need to overcome city water pressure. I think its electronic....no sensor to change.


 
How close can you pinpoint a leak with that?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Gettinit said:


> I use 95% nitrogen/5% hydrogen. You just need to overcome city water pressure. I think its electronic....no sensor to change.


How much do the sniffers cost?


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Plastic is the only enemy to a good locate. Not the plastic pipe but the sheeting. Without the sheeting it is free to come straight up.

Stand alone's can cost over $6,000, avg. at $8,000 and can be more. My unit was bought before the sensor was brought into the US but when it came my equipment was set up for it so all I needed was the sniffer and I think it was about $1,600 more. You may be able to send the older orange units in for an upgrade...not sure.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

SlickRick said:


> Leak on a 400' pvc water service tomorrow, should be fun. Trace gas sure would be handy.


Another successful locate. :thumbsup:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Gettinit said:


> Plastic is the only enemy to a good locate. Not the plastic pipe but the sheeting. Without the sheeting it is free to come straight up.
> 
> Stand alone's can cost over $6,000, avg. at $8,000 and can be more. My unit was bought before the sensor was brought into the US but when it came my equipment was set up for it so all I needed was the sniffer and I think it was about $1,600 more. You may be able to send the older orange units in for an upgrade...not sure.


So if you were out in a pasture, could you scan an area fairly quickly, even without a exact line trace, if you are close. Like maybe a 6' sweep from side to side?


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

I have not tried to do a leak detection without knowing where the line is buried. Even if I couldn't trace it out those old farmers know exactly where everything is. I am usually not in a hurry and they don't recommend going too fast. What's too fast? I don't know. There are different levels of sensitivity. Here are the levels I pulled off the web specific to my detector... 

0 … 20 ppm 
0 … 50 ppm 
0 … 100 ppm 
0 … 500 ppm 
0 … 1000 ppm 
0 … 5000 ppm 
0 … 10000 ppm


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

These aren't "Old Farmers" around here, they are people with money that "Think" they know everything.

They usually lead me to a gopher run 200' away from the nearest water and say "that's where the leaks at". I leave a guy with a shovel to dig up nothing while I go locate the leak.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

SlickRick said:


> These aren't "Old Farmers" around here, they are people with money that "Think" they know everything.
> 
> They usually lead me to a gopher run 200' away from the nearest water and say "that's where the leaks at". I leave a guy with a shovel to dig up nothing while I go locate the leak.


There are manufacturers that sell stand alone units that utilize an adapter like a wide vacuum cleaner.....Sensus I think. When I have a chance I will post the manufacturer.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

I had one that was right at a hundred yards long. That one one was hard to find the leak on.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I had a "reported" leak on a 800' 1 1/2" line. I ask the customer to show me all the water he had on the property. He said that it ran from the meter to a MH,and that the shutoff under the MH shut off the entire system. and everything was past the shut off at the MH. He wouldn't even let me look around, he was positive it was the service (4' deep through a swamp). I spent all day trying to find the leak.

He said for me to replace the line, so I did.

Turned the water on, and the same leak is there.

He was gone, but his wife was there, so I ask if I could look around, and ask her what was in a shed w/ no doors, just sealed up. She said she didn't know?

I take one side off, and it's a old w/h that fed the fish camp.

It was pouring water out, and down a gopher hole.

5 min. to cap off, and the leak stops.

Seems there was a branch under the MH upstream of the shut off.

Very expensive repair.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

How do you run a trench through a swamp? I'm dry land here so this would be new to me.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Epox said:


> How do you run a trench through a swamp? I'm dry land here so this would be new to me.


 Water or sewer? Etheir way, call jnohss.. sorry can't help it.. Happy Father's day to all Daddies out there..


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Epox said:


> How do you run a trench through a swamp? I'm dry land here so this would be new to me.


Not a swamp like in LA. just a bottom that stays wet. My excavator will ride on top of some pretty mushy stuff. As long as there is grass.


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