# Wonderful commercial water heater install



## Protech

:whistling2:


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## PLUMB TIME

1-800-heater3:jester:


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## Protech

Oh, you don't like how they did that? :jester:


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## Airgap

Why is there backer board behind it? I'm not even going to comment on the piping...cause...well


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## LEAD INGOT

I am glad to see that they used plastic perf strap to hold up thet TET. :whistling2:. I see that kinda crap everyday. And thats why I'm so busy.


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## Redwood

They shoulda used PEX...:whistling2:


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## Protech

Why the 6" vent? It's only 70k Btus and the vent runs straight up like 4ft.


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## Protech

I would be ok with that vs cpvc and pvc right. No plastic pipe should be right next to that flue like that though.

They have hot water running thru pvc indoors at 138F at 60+ psi.
It's been that way for a few years now. I have no idea how it hasn't blown up yet.



Redwood said:


> They shoulda used PEX...:whistling2:


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## Plumber Jim

just wait till that expansion tank gets water logged.. the weight will drop that pipe. What a nasty pipe job.


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## Protech

That won't happen because I was called in to relocate the heater. That monstrosity will be terminated with extreme prejudice.​


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## Plumber Jim

Cool, Can't wait to see the after pics.


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## Airgap

Slap some tile on that backer board while you're in there....:whistling2:


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## futz

Protech said:


> Oh, you don't like how they did that? :jester:


Unbelievable. :no: What slop.


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## TheMaster

Protech said:


> They have hot water running thru pvc indoors at 138F at 60+ psi.
> It's been that way for a few years now. I have no idea how it hasn't blown up yet.


 Maybe they used primer:laughing:


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## smellslike$tome

I suspect I'm setting myself up for ridicule for not knowing this but why is a vavuum breaker necessary on a top fed wh? This is an actual question so someone please enlighten me.


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## PipeDreamer

smellslike$tome said:


> I suspect I'm setting myself up for ridicule for not knowing this but why is a vavuum breaker necessary on a top fed wh? This is an actual question so someone please enlighten me.


Here's what my book says:

*10.16.7 Vacuum Relief Valves​*Where a hot water storage tank or an indirect water heater is located at an elevation above the fixture outlets in the hot water system, a vacuum relief valve shall be installed on the storage tank or heater.​


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## TheMaster

smellslike$tome said:


> I suspect I'm setting myself up for ridicule for not knowing this but why is a vavuum breaker necessary on a top fed wh? This is an actual question so someone please enlighten me.


 It wouldn't be required here. The only way you would need it on a top feed is if the hole in the diptube became blocked and the siphon couldn't break. Or some code:laughing:


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## Protech

I don't know why there is a vac relief valve on there. I only see them on commercial installations, not resi.

I'll have to look up the code.


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## user2091

holy crap? who hired the irrigation tech? you think he over thought this one out? ho is cutting cost. give him his stimulus money now!!!! plz


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## Protech

I have not done commercial for a while so I’d like to get some input from the commercial guys if possible. 

The situation is this. I need to move that heater from the shed like room that was added on to the building and move it over to the right of the clothes washers. That is, it needs to go right in between the washers and the dryers. Some idiot ran 1/2" pvc lines from that heater to feed a 2 compartment laundry sink. I'll need to rip those out and run some new lines to feed that sink. I was thinking that I could just run the relief and pan drain behind the washers to the back wall of the building and dump them to the exterior. I was thinking 4" type b double wall going straight up and thru the roof (a new penetration would need to be made) for the flue. I have 1" cpvc trunk lines running behind the washers to tie into for the heaters water lines. The current heater is fed from a 1" black iron line that drops down from a 1.5" line in the drop ceiling. I will cap that line at the 1.5" x 1.5" x 1" tee. I will then remove a 1.5" drip leg in the access room and install a 1.5" x 1.5" x 1" tee there to pull a 1" line from. that 1" line will run across the east wall heading north and feed my heater with natural gas.

Sound like a plan? Pictures to follow.


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## Protech

here's the layout of the place


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## Protech

a sketch from the side looking to the east


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## Protech

sorry for the horrible drawing


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## Protech

the current 1" branch feeding the heater. to be capped.


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## Protech

The heater needs to go where that pile of laundry is.


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## Redwood

Phew.. Wanna resize those pics?


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## Protech

Done. Better?


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## SlickRick

Protech said:


> I have not done commercial for a while so I’d like to get some input from the commercial guys if possible.
> 
> The situation is this. I need to move that heater from the shed like room that was added on to the building and move it over to the right of the clothes washers. That is, it needs to go right in between the washers and the dryers. Some idiot ran 1/2" pvc lines from that heater to feed a 2 compartment laundry sink. I'll need to rip those out and run some new lines to feed that sink. I was thinking that I could just run the relief and pan drain behind the washers to the back wall of the building and dump them to the exterior. I was thinking 4" type b double wall going straight up and thru the roof (a new penetration would need to be made) for the flue. I have 1" cpvc trunk lines running behind the washers to tie into for the heaters water lines. The current heater is fed from a 1" black iron line that drops down from a 1.5" line in the drop ceiling. I will cap that line at the 1.5" x 1.5" x 1" tee. I will then remove a 1.5" drip leg in the access room and install a 1.5" x 1.5" x 1" tee there to pull a 1" line from. that 1" line will run across the east wall heading north and feed my heater with natural gas.
> 
> Sound like a plan? Pictures to follow.


Sounds like a solid plan...:thumbup:


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## Protech

Another thought. Couldn't I get away with running 3/4" brazed copper instead of 1" BI for the fuel gas. The heater is only 70,000 btus and it requires an inlet pressure of 5" WC. I'm only running 10' from the 1.5" main which is at 14"WC.


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## SlickRick

We can't run ANY natural gas in copper here. The additive issue...

How about some gas tite or ward flex...Does your supplier sell just the footage you need, one of ours does. That would be nice!


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## TheMaster

I would use type L stick or roll copper. Brazed.


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## Protech

I can't use silphos. I need a brazing filler that contains NO phosphorous.

Any suggestions?


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## Protech

Sulphur dioxide is low here so copper is ok.



slickrick said:


> We can't run ANY natural gas in copper here. The additive issue...
> 
> How about some gas tite or ward flex...Does your supplier sell the footage you need, one of ours does. That would be nice!


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## TheMaster

I think I'd use 1/2" copper and flare it. Thats 5/8" o.d.


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## TheMaster

Protech said:


> I can't use silphos. I need a brazing filler that contains NO phosphorous.
> 
> Any suggestions?


 I use Harris "Stay-Silv" #15. No idea if it has phosphorous or not.


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## SlickRick

Protech said:


> Sulphur dioxide is low here so copper is ok.


Even with low sulphur dioxide content the corrosive additives for the odor are the problem. Very corrosive to copper, especially to flare joints. Florida is a funny place. Do the drains go down counter clockwise there! :laughing:


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## Protech

I can't tell you how many 50+ year old homes that I've been in with copper gas lines. Never had a problem with gas leaks due to odorants. I have seen one or two leaks due to lightening, and corrosive soils but it's pretty rare.



slickrick said:


> Even with low sulphur dioxide content the corrosive additives for the odor are the problem. Very corrosive to copper, especially to flare joints. Florida is a funny place. Do the drains go down counter clockwise there! :laughing:


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## Protech

1/2"? I don't know if that would fly for 70k btus........

On second thought I think I'm just going to stay with my original plan and run 1" BI. There will be a ton of it left over from the old line. I can just reuse it all. Heck, I'll even reuse the gas valve and whip. Why not? It's not like its old or anything.



TheMaster said:


> I think I'd use 1/2" copper and flare it. Thats 5/8" o.d.


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## SlickRick

Protech said:


> I can't tell you how many 50+ year old homes that I've been in with copper gas lines. Never had a problem with gas leaks due to odorants. I have seen one or two leaks due to lightening, and corrosive soils but it's pretty rare.


Just check on what I am saying. gas suppliers warn against it. Your a tech. guy , look up the additives in it. And if you don't purge that copper with nitrogen while you are brasing you know what the oxidation will be in it..


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## Protech

I guess you don't know that sulphur dioxide *IS* the odorant.



slickrick said:


> Even with low sulphur dioxide content the corrosive additives for the odor are the problem. Very corrosive to copper, especially to flare joints. Florida is a funny place. Do the drains go down counter clockwise there! :laughing:


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## SlickRick

Protech said:


> I guess you don't know that sulphur dioxide *IS* the odorant.


I am not a highly tech individual.That is not the chemical additive name that is mentioned. I will find it and you can tell me..


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## Protech

Right. If copper is exposed to air while it's at 800+ degrees it will oxidize into copper oxide. It's a brownish grey color and forms a flakey coating on the inside of the pipe which can chip off and clog things up. It can also react with certain gasses.



slickrick said:


> Just check on what I am saying. gas suppliers warn against it. Your a tech. guy , look up the additives in it. And if you don't purge that copper with nitrogen while you are brasing you know what the oxidation will be in it..


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## Protech

butyl mercaptan perhaps?



slickrick said:


> I am not a highly tech individual.That is not the chemical additive name that is mentioned. I will find it and you can tell me..


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## Titan Plumbing

Better you than me, Rick...........:laughing:


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## TheMaster

1/2" I.D soft copper with no joints will deliver about 300,000 BTU's over a 10' run on 14in w.c..


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## Protech

My code book says 101,033btu. Even so, you're right 1/2" would be fine for a 70Kbtu heater at 5" WC minimum with 14"WC at the main.



TheMaster said:


> 1/2" I.D soft copper with no joints will deliver about 300,000 BTU's over a 10' run on 14in w.c..


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## SlickRick

Protech said:


> I guess you don't know that sulphur dioxide *IS* the odorant.


Sulphur Dioxide occurs naturally in gas and has to be removed.

Thiophane-dimethyl disulfate is added for odor.


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## Protech

I think you are confused. It's hydrogen sulphide that's naturally found in some (but not all) gases and that's known as sour gas.

I've never heard of "Thiophane-dimethyl disulfate" but if it's the same as Tetrahydrothiophene then it's NOT corrosive to metals.



slickrick said:


> Sulphur Dioxide occurs naturally in gas and has to be removed.
> 
> Thiophane-dimethyl disulfate is added for odor.


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## SlickRick

Protech said:


> I think you are confused. It's hydrogen sulphide that's naturally found in some (but not all) gases and that's known as sour gas.
> 
> I've never heard of "Thiophane-dimethyl disulfate" but if it's the same as Tetrahydrothiophene then it's NOT corrosive to metals.


I am not confused I do my home work before I say anything... Let's get it on... Im' just Sayin'


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## Protech

Could you provide a reference then?



slickrick said:


> I am not confused I do my home work before I say anything... Let's get it on... Im' just Sayin'


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## SlickRick

Protech said:


> Could you provide a reference then?


Give me a minute, I am new to this cut and paste stuff.
The thiophane-dimethyl disulfide is a trade name.

http://www.naturalgas.org/naturalgas/processing_ng.asp sulphur dioxide (sulfur dioxide) removal

http://www.springerlink.com/content/p603k43205510643/ mercaptan (t-butyl mercaptan) affects on copper


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## Kyle181

what a horrible install.


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## TheMaster

methyl mercaptan is whats used somtimes. We use copper here and its approved. Its approved because there no problem with it. I've installed many 2psi copper gas systems and they are still running fine over 20 years later. Some gas suppliers put more into the mix. There are several different gas's they can use for oder agent.


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## Protech

:yes:



TheMaster said:


> methyl mercaptan is whats used somtimes. We use copper here and its approved. Its approved because there no problem with it. I've installed many 2psi copper gas systems and they are still running fine over 20 years later. Some gas suppliers put more into the mix. There are several different gas's they can use for oder agent.


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## TheMaster

Protech said:


> My code book says 101,033btu. Even so, you're right 1/2" would be fine for a 70Kbtu heater at 5" WC minimum with 14"WC at the main.


Thats about right for a 6in w.c. 101,000. But 14"w.c. will run way more.
ADD> actualy my chart is showing it to run 85,000 btu's for a 6in w.c


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## TheMaster

I'm cheating......I have a chart thats has all the BTU per hr rating for natural gas with different size pipe/type of pipe determined by pressure and lenght of run. I also have one for propane.


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## pauliplumber

Protech said:


> I don't know why there is a vac relief valve on there. I only see them on commercial installations, not resi.
> 
> I'll have to look up the code.


 Code for all water heaters in MA. We just gotta be differen't:blink:


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## Protech

Where did ya get one of those at? I could use one.



TheMaster said:


> I'm cheating......I have a chart thats has all the BTU per hr rating for natural gas with different size pipe/type of pipe determined by pressure and lenght of run. I also have one for propane.


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## SlickRick

TheMaster said:


> methyl mercaptan is whats used somtimes. We use copper here and its approved. Its approved because there no problem with it. I've installed many 2psi copper gas systems and they are still running fine over 20 years later. Some gas suppliers put more into the mix. There are several different gas's they can use for oder agent.


Thats the name. the other was a trade name. So is sulphur dioxide put in or taken out?
If your codes allow it and you feel comfortable, by all means use it!
I have found many flares that have fallen off to the touch.. The mercaptan additives are why we can't


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## Airgap

Protech said:


> 1/2"? I don't know if that would fly for 70k btus........
> 
> On second thought I think I'm just going to stay with my original plan and run 1" BI. There will be a ton of it left over from the old line. I can just reuse it all. Heck, I'll even reuse the gas valve and whip. Why not? It's not like its old or anything.


 :thumbup:


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## TheMaster

slickrick said:


> Thats the name. the other was a trade name. So is sulphur dioxide put in or taken out.
> 
> I have found many flares that have fallen off to the touch..


 If a flare or any joint leaks it will eat itself.....it becomes more corrosive when it mix's with the atmosphere. So if a flare joint is leaking it will get worse and worse.


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## SlickRick

TheMaster said:


> If a flare or any joint leaks it will eat itself.....it becomes more corrosive when it mix's with the atmosphere. So if a flare joint is leaking it will get worse and worse.


OK..

Not only is it against the codes in Texas. The gas supplier here (Reliant Energy) will refuse to provide service if they see copper.


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## Protech

Sulphur dioxide is added as an odorant by some gas companys. Butyl mercaptan is used by others. They are both additives for odor but only sulphur dioxide is corrosive out of the 2.

Hydrogen sulfide is removed from raw gas in some wells as it is highly corrosive. Such corrosive raw gas is called "sour gas".



slickrick said:


> Thats the name. the other was a trade name. So is sulphur dioxide put in or taken out?
> If your codes allow it and you feel comfortable, by all means use it!
> I have found many flares that have fallen off to the touch.. The mercaptan additives are why we can't


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## SlickRick

Protech said:


> Sulphur dioxide is added as an odorant by some gas companys. Butyl mercaptan is used by others. They are both additives for odor but only sulphur dioxide is corrosive out of the 2.
> 
> Hydrogen sulfide is removed from raw gas in some wells as it is highly corrosive. Such corrosive raw gas is called "sour gas".


Did you look at the attachment I put back a few? I am not very smart, but we have plenty of h2s wells around here


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## TheMaster

The need for tin coating on the inside of copper tubing is primarily to prevent attack by unscrubbed natural gas. The copper tubing is attacked readily by moisture, sulfur and it’s compounds which occur naturally in natural gas.
..................................................................................................................
I copied this from a tin-lined copper website. I guess we have scrubbed gas because no tin is required here. As you see the presence of moisture accelerates the attack...thats why i said a leaking joint will get worse.....I live in a very humid climate. When the gas leak mix's with all that humidity it goes wild.


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## SlickRick

TheMaster said:


> The need for tin coating on the inside of copper tubing is primarily to prevent attack by unscrubbed natural gas. The copper tubing is attacked readily by moisture, sulfur and it’s compounds which occur naturally in natural gas.
> ..................................................................................................................
> I copied this from a tin-lined copper website. I guess we have scrubbed gas because no tin is required here. As you see the presence of moisture accelerates the attack...thats why i said a leaking joint will get worse.....I live in a very humid climate. When the gas leak mix's with all that humidity it goes wild.


I don't guess I have seen the tin-lined copper? They have scrubbers on all the wells here,


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## Titan Plumbing

slickrick said:


> I don't guess I have seen the tin-lined copper? They have scrubbers on all the wells here,


You know Rick, years ago we had copper on all the bathroom wall heaters and sometimes on W/H's. I haven't really seen to many problems with the copper. Now once you remove them, then the copper is full of all the black flakey stuff.

I have never gotten a satisfactory answer as to why we can't use copper around here.


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## SlickRick

Choctaw said:


> You know Rick, years ago we had copper on all the bathroom wall heaters and sometimes on W/H's. I haven't really seen to many problems with the copper. Now once you remove them, then the copper is full of all the black flakey stuff.
> 
> I have never gotten a satisfactory answer as to why we can't use copper around here.


The copper always looked fine. It is always the flares!

I'm not a scintist. I was told by arkla gas back in the day it was the additive.

We may never get to the bottom of it. It's kind of like flux... just one of those things ?


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## Titan Plumbing

slickrick said:


> The copper always looked fine. It is always the flares!
> 
> I'm not a scintist. I was told by arkla gas back in the day it was the additive.


 
I know it's the flares, but really, how many times have you had a leak on the copper?


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## SlickRick

Choctaw said:


> I know it's the flares, but really, how many times have you had a leak on the copper?


........ 0 ....... Plenty of flaking but no leaks.

I was thinking.. I hope no one thought I was saying not to use copper if you can. Just why we can't use it here.


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## Protech

Quoted him $1800.


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## user2091

*purge*



Protech said:


> Right. If copper is exposed to air while it's at 800+ degrees it will oxidize into copper oxide. It's a brownish grey color and forms a flakey coating on the inside of the pipe which can chip off and clog things up. It can also react with certain gasses.


 purge your lines. clean as new! i'd still do the 1" black iron, gets the job done.


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## amh112181

I would do the black iron it always looks better when someone does it right. I work for a propane company up here in Maine. We do a lot of stuff in copper. The natural gas guys up here cringe when they see copper cause when it gets cold the pressure gets low they like big black iron to everything.


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## Protech

Can you explain why the pressure would go down in the winter since the gas is coming out of a regulator????


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## TheMaster

Protech said:


> Can you explain why the pressure would go down in the winter since the gas is coming out of a regulator????


 Sure.....the service providers lines are under sized for the winter demand is my guess.


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## Protech

Oh, it sounded like he was implying that it was due to reduced vapor pressure due to the cold. 



TheMaster said:


> Sure.....the service providers lines are under sized for the winter demand is my guess.


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## TheMaster

Protech said:


> Oh, it sounded like he was implying that it was due to reduced vapor pressure due to the cold.


 He may have been I dunno...It doesn't get that cold here usually but i do know that somtimes the gas company has to stand watch over some regulators 24 hrs a day when it does get cold here.....If they freeze the gas company has to go door to door an relight all those pilots and check every house for leaks......its a nightmare for them.


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## Protech

Why would the regulators freeze?


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## TheMaster

Protech said:


> Why would the regulators freeze?


 I guess the gas has some moisture in it and it just builds and builds. They usually send peope out to baby sit the neighborhood regs when it gets really cold


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## Protech

God I love being in central FL. I never have to worry about things like that.


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## TheMaster

Protech said:


> God I love being in central FL. I never have to worry about things like that.


I dont either I dont work for the Gas co!:laughing: Now they dont baby sit each house....just the big main's. I see on the news it was like 90 down your way today...I dont miss that. It was about 73 here today. Most of the big valves have lil houses built over them with some source of heat but not all of them.


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## BigApplePlumber

All I know is if you used plastic pipe in manhattan for anything..........plumbing lisence revoked!!!!!!


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## Protech

No plastic at all? Of any kind? What do you do for aggressive water? RO/DI systems? Corrosion resistant waste?

Seriously? No plastic?


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