# Eternal hybrid tankless. Very very nice.



## Jay S. (Aug 9, 2011)

Best damn tankless heater I've ever installed. 

-20 year warranty
-extremely high temp rise
-2" PVC vent
-3/4 trac is NO problem.

Only comes in 2 sizes. 
large $1,800-my cost. extra large $2,000 my cost
Materials are very low, you don't even need a isolator valve kit. 
Only 2" vent, so expensive vent kit isn't needed. 
No heat exchanger so it requires no maintenance. 
Low water pressure, well water. No problem. 
Best damn thing I've ever seen. Installing it was easier than the other tankless heaters i've done. It comes with mini legs if you want to set it on a floor, and light enough to mount on the wall. 

I recommend everyone to check them out. 
Here is an installation I did last year. 
http://www.waterheatinginfo.com/tip...kless-water-heater-for-homes-with-well-water/ 

(If this thread is going some where else already I apologize)


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## Jay S. (Aug 9, 2011)

It provides Real endless hot water. I put one in a house with 3 baths, ran everything in the house at the same time in the dead of winter and these things don't skip a beat. 
And there is no cold water sandwich issues either, because again, it has no heat exchanger.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

What are the drawback to it? 

I hear due to extreme incoming cold temps that tank less are less than desirable.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Never mind I read the answer for myself. Very informative link.


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## Jay S. (Aug 9, 2011)

Indie said:


> Never mind I read the answer for myself. Very informative link.


Thanks.

Yes incredible temp rise. Best on the tankless market I believe. 
Without getting into the crazy price range.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

I keep hearing the beating drum of the hype that the Eternal hybrid is the best tankless water heater out there.

It is no better than any other tankless water heater out there. Have a look at the spec sheet they have on their own website. http://eternalwaterheater.com/pdf/downloads/2011%20Eternal%20Spec%20Sheet%204.20.11.pdf Second page there is a chart that shows you the GPM at a given temperature rise. In my area that temperature rise is 70º the GU195 gives 5.6 GPM and the smaller unit 4.1 GPM Tell me how is this better than say the Noritz NRC111 gives 5.3 GPM @ 70º temperature rise which is not Noritz largest unit but same BTU's as the Eternal GU195 and uses PVC venting. The new unit they just came out with NRC98 gives 4.8 GPM

So with the above numbers how is this new miracle tankless by Eternal so much better than any other out there? And the Noritz is less expansive than the Eternal.


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

wtf are you talking about "no heat exchanger" :laughing: it does have a buffer tank but for sure it has a heat exchanger....


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Plumbworker said:


> wtf are you talking about "no heat exchanger" :laughing: it does have a buffer tank but for sure it has a heat exchanger....


He is buying into their hype. Guess he drank to much of the kool-aid. Like the statement its light enough to hang on the wall, it weights 90+ pounds. Then the line no cold water sandwich, that is only if there is a recirculation loop according to Eternals own website.


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> He is buying into their hype. Guess he drank to much of the kool-aid. Like the statement its light enough to hang on the wall, it weights 90+ pounds. Then the line no cold water sandwich, that is only if there is a recirculation loop according to Eternals own website.


yeah and the "no maintenance" line :blink: :laughing:

actually there should be no sandwich even without a return not installed... ill give him that...


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Plumbworker said:


> yeah and the "no maintenance" line :blink: :laughing:
> 
> actually there will be no sandwich without a return installed ill give him that...



Here is the line that is on their PDF spec sheet.


> Easy integration with recirculation and no startup lag eliminates cold water sandwich​


I think I understand that they might be stating two points in one bullet. But this so called cold water sandwich, is what the water that cools in the heat exchanger and hot water supply pipes? I had people voice concerns about it taking time to get hot water at the fixture would be longer if they went with tankless verse their tanked heater. The only way it would take it longer is if you install the new tankless unit farther away from all the plumbing fixtures like on an external wall that I see lots of installers doing. I like to keep the tankless in the same spot as where the tank heater was. Then the lag is the same with the tankless unit as it is with a tanked unit.


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

that shot of cold water from the heat exhanger enters the 2 gal hot water storage (buffer tank) with or without a return


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Plumbworker said:


> wtf are you talking about "no heat exchanger" :laughing: it does have a buffer tank but for sure it has a heat exchanger....


Oh no! :no: It heats the water by magic! :laughing: Not with a nasty heat exchanger. :laughing:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*you are mistaken*

the heat exchanger is Stainless Steel and needs no maintaince,,, lime cannot build up in the unit like in 
normal tankless heat exchangers... 

no need to be de-limed... and you can also install a recirulation line into it because it has a few gallon capacity tank within the unit... 

or so I am told....

 I would like to try one myself, but cannot find any plumbing supply house that will give me one for free to experiment with..:laughing:


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

The stainless heat exchanger is still going to require maintenance at some point in its life. In fact i've had to descale many stainless flat plate & frame style exchangers on the potable side... granted the water ways in the eternals exchanger are much larger.. i just think the op's post was a little out there is all.

the way he worded it as miracle water heater that has a 20yr warranty and requires no maintenace


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

I have installed approx 140 of the eternal GU series tankless units over the last two years, and have had 14 warranty calls on them. 12 of those calls turned out to be workmanship/improper installation. The two units that did have problems were easy to diagnose and repair. The units are very simple compared to a noritz, and the components are laid out so that they are easy to get to

I like 'em


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## Jay S. (Aug 9, 2011)

-To touch up on a few comments.- 

No "traditional" heat exchanger, i guess I should have said. Obviously there is a chamber within the unit where heat exchanging takes place! smart guy. But there is no small restrictive internal lines like there is in all "traditional" heat exchangers. The Eternal requires ZERO maintenance. And why it comes with a 20 year warranty on the "heat exchanging tank". 
(Watch the video on my stupid external link) and see the difference between the Eternal and traditional tankless units. (Oh wait you did, we got over 8 thousand page views yesterday.) 

I have a Rheem in my house, installed many Noritz and many more Navien's. The cold water sandwiching doesn't happen with the Eternal, and there is no recirculating line required. The Eternal is more like a traditional water heater than a Noritz because there are very few thing to go wrong. The Eternal doesn't even have any computer board, well it's about 1/8 the size of Noritz and Naviens. Anyway check them out if you have an application with Well Water. The Eternal is the Perfect choice for tankless with well water applications IMO. 

Don't kill the messenger! I'm just trying to see if anyone else has been installing them and how they have been working.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

But Jay what about these great flow rates that out perform the Noritz and other tankless units? Oh wait I proved to you that it has the same flow rates as a tankless heater. It is all hype.


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## Jay S. (Aug 9, 2011)

Here's the thing. I'm not saying "this is the best tankless water heater for every application" I'm saying it's a great product. I'm saying it's perfect for times when a "traditional' tankless inst a good idea. Like, an application with well water. 

In my part of the world. Fairfield/ New Haven County, CT. We have Big houses, well water, and not much gas service. The Eternal handles well heads much better than Noritz, and no PRV is required like most tankless units with well water applications. 

Stick to your Noritz bud! They are great products! I have installed many of them over the years. (not recently I do admit) But the Eternal is easier to install, requires less materials, and comes with a much better warranty then that Noritz.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Jay we have wells around here still. I do not just do work in the City of Chicago, I do work out in the burbs as well. Never had an issue with well water or pressures. And yes you did try to say it will out perform a tankless heater 


Jay S. said:


> It provides Real endless hot water. I put one in a house with 3 baths, ran everything in the house at the same time in the dead of winter and these things don't skip a beat.
> And there is no cold water sandwich issues either, because again, it has no heat exchanger.


A single large unit in a three bath house around here in the dead of winter I would not be able to turn on every fixture and get the flow you are speaking of. Just three faucets @ 2gpm each would max out the flow rate @ a 70º rise. 

So all you are doing is coming on here and posting your website full of hype to help drive up sales on an overpriced unit. Do not get me wrong, Noritz, Navien, Takagi and all the others are guilty of hyping up how wonderful their products will perform, but their flow rates they hype about is at a 30º Temperature rise. Where Eternal numbers they hype about is only at a 20º temperature rise. If you compare the flow rates on the other brands of tankless units to the Eternal at any given temperature rise (35º, 48º....70º) you will see that the numbers are with in tenths of a gallon of each other. 

As for gas sizing 199K BTU Eternal and a 199K Tankless still requires the proper sizing of the gas line. I do not think you can hook up an Eternal to the 1/2" supply that was used on the tank heater. Going to need to up size it just like any other tankless unit.


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## Jay S. (Aug 9, 2011)

SewerRatz said:


> Jay we have wells around here still. I do not just do work in the City of Chicago, I do work out in the burbs as well. Never had an issue with well water or pressures. And yes you did try to say it will out perform a tankless heater
> 
> A single large unit in a three bath house around here in the dead of winter I would not be able to turn on every fixture and get the flow you are speaking of. Just three faucets @ 2gpm each would max out the flow rate @ a 70º rise.
> 
> ...


*Eternal can run perfectly with 3/4 trac. 
I for one would never run 3/4 trac on any other type of large demand tankless. We had a bunch of problems with Navien and Noritz back in the day when I was eating dirt, figuring them out for the first time. Now we run only 3/4 black pipe, or 1" trac with full port gas valves. 
* only 2" hole required through home. 
* 20 year warranty. 
* No cold water sandwiching. 
* No recirculating line needed. 

Your turn sir.


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

Jay S. said:


> *Eternal can run perfectly with 3/4 trac.
> I for one would never run 3/4 trac on any other type of large demand tankless. We had a bunch of problems with Navien and Noritz back in the day when I was eating dirt, figuring them out for the first time. Now we run only 3/4 black pipe, or 1" trac with full port gas valves.
> * only 2" hole required through home.
> * 20 year warranty.
> ...



To touch your points:
* 3/4CSST is inadequate for a tankless, unless you mean to say medium pressure

Although it can run a 2" vent, 3" is quieter.

*20 year heat exchanger warranty. They also have great tech support, and the units are easy to work on

* no cold water sandwich, but it does have a min. Flow rate of .5gpm

*works well with a recirc system, although it isn't needed.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Aa for csst I can not comment on since I do not install the stuff. As for 2" venting that's up to 35' with minimal turns. I have no problem with black pipe and 3" venting. 

I am not impressed with any hybrid or Tankless system. They all like to hype up their products, just like you are doing with this thread. 

Most people that contact me about this unit or any other tankless unit are wearing the ruby colored glasses and drank the cool aid about how these units will save them.so much. I have to educate them that a single unit will not give the performance to run two to three showers and do laundry all at the same time. Also have to explain to them when the unit breaks they will be without hot water till the parts get in. So to avoid down time and have enough capacity they need two install two units. 

I have installed many tankless water heaters and the installs I have done I have properly sized the system to fit the needs of the building. Only ones that see a noticable savings is my commercial properties. The residential only see a very small savings if any.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Jay S. said:


> *Eternal can run perfectly with 3/4 trac.
> I for one would never run 3/4 trac on any other type of large demand tankless. We had a bunch of problems with Navien and Noritz back in the day when I was eating dirt, figuring them out for the first time. Now we run only 3/4 black pipe, or 1" trac with full port gas valves.
> * only 2" hole required through home.
> * 20 year warranty.
> ...


Please explain to me how an eternal running at 199K BTU is different than, say a noritz, running at 199K BTU.


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

Colgar said:


> Please explain to me how an eternal running at 199K BTU is different than, say a noritz, running at 199K BTU.


It's not. The difference is in the design, quality, and cost of the unit. They are both about on par with each other in terms of efficiency and flow rates. We used to install Noritz tankless, however, something strange about our local water from lake lavon causes these little black specks. After numerous calls to tech support, several workarounds( noritz even built completely different boards for us!)


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

sikxsevn said:


> It's not. The difference is in the design, quality, and cost of the unit. They are both about on par with each other in terms of efficiency and flow rates. We used to install Noritz tankless, however, something strange about our local water from lake lavon causes these little black specks. After numerous calls to tech support, several workarounds( noritz even built completely different boards for us!)


I had to replace on board in my lifetime and it was due to a power surge taking it out. When I looked at these circuit boards, the electronics are coted in a water proof epoxy coating. The only part not coated was the power supply part of the board. So I am wondering where are these black specks you are talking about? And how does the circuit board figure in to this if the specks are in the water?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*only time will tell*

I spoke to my sales rep and the difference for 
me between a ranni and a eternal when you add 
in the SS pipe and labor to install the Ranni....

works out to about 500 bucks.... the larger Eternal would run me about 2350.

I have been told at a Eternal training class a few years ago 

that they are useing the Eternal in commercial apps like public laundry rooms.... and large dorms ect.... and they keep up well with the demand.... replaceing huge 120 gallon commercial heaters..

I would never trust a Ranni or Nortiz to handle anything like that...... those puppies would not keep up unless you put about 3 of them in parrellel

I have not seen any videos on anyones site about them...
 so is this true??


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> I had to replace on board in my lifetime and it was due to a power surge taking it out. When I looked at these circuit boards, the electronics are coted in a water proof epoxy coating. The only part not coated was the power supply part of the board. So I am wondering where are these black specks you are talking about? And how does the circuit board figure in to this if the specks are in the water?


You must have misunderstood. The little black specks are basically soot, theres something in our water that doesn't work well with most tankless heaters. Noritz programmed a new board custom for us, I think it changed the way the units run. It didn't fix the problem. Noritz ended up just recommending us install water softeners 

Since we swapped to eternal, no more black specks in the water, and no more clogged heat exchangers. 

Yes, they are more expensive units, but really, you get what you pay for


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## Jay S. (Aug 9, 2011)

Nice installation. Nice additional comments. 
You got that thin on a piece of granite? 
We have had lot of flooding issues the past few years so I usually stick them on the wall, but really that looks nice. :thumbsup: 

(Oh wait at second look I see you have it in a utility closet which is off the ground.) Sweet.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

sikxsevn, I do not understand how soot is getting into the water. Soot is caused by a fuel not burning properly and it would show on the fins of the heat exchanger and in the exhaust, but I can not see how it gets in the water.

Master Mark, how can the Eternal work better than a Rinnai or a Noritz? I pointed out that its (the Eternal) flow rates are no better than a tankless water heater. If the Eternal has to do a 70º Temp rise it only going to flow 6 GPM, so for them to work in large dorms or public laundry that draws more than that you will have to put in multiple units just like any other tankless unit out there.


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> sikxsevn, I do not understand how soot is getting into the water. Soot is caused by a fuel not burning properly and it would show on the fins of the heat exchanger and in the exhaust, but I can not see how it gets in the water.


Sorry, calling it soot may be a bit misleading. We( my company+Noritz) aren't exactly sure what it is, we never did find a solution

One of the things Noritz tried for us was a new reprogrammed board that slightly changed the operating procedures of the tankless. 

The way a noritz works, as explained by my Noritz rep, is that it superheats or flash heats the water to well above boiling, and then mixes it back down to the set point. 

One of the things our reprogrammed boards did was change the temperature that the heater flash heats to, among other changes that Noritz would not disclose to us

At the intent of keeping this thread on topic, after dealing with the black speck problem in several installations, refunding customers monies, and so forth and so on, we made the switch to Navien in 2007, and to Eternal in 2009

Sewerratz, if you wish to discuss this matter further, feel free to shoot me a PM or start another thread. As for Eternal units, I would love to answer instalation/warranty related questions. We could talk each other to death about flow rates and why X unit is better than Y. I'm not saying Eternal is better, just different


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*that looks good*



so youhave put in over 40 of these with no real hitches yet... that is a pretty good track record... 

looks like a very simple install, the hardest part is probably running the pvc vents


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

I personally have installed 40, the company about 140. I have photos of almost every single one I've installed. The units are very well designed, and can either be wall hung or just set it in the pan using the provided rubber feet. It also comes with a set of 6" tall legs, very useful if you need to use a condensate pump. All the connections are on the top and left side of the unit, very handy for retrofits. Every single one if these photos is a retro from tanks


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

A couple more:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*what was the average cost*

they look pretty good... I know that they will keep up up or surpass a 75 gallon gas heater...

looks like a air intake and a exaust on them??

do the condensate very much??

 I was wondering what was
your average cost to change them out??


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

i was told that the built in mixing valve was not adjustable and fixed at 120 F.. is that true? I would like more adjustable range if needed


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> they look pretty good... I know that they will keep up up or surpass a 75 gallon gas heater...
> 
> looks like a air intake and a exaust on them??
> 
> ...


Yes, air intake and exhaust. The intake does not have to be piped to outside, but I do in installations where there were two heaters, so there's already two flashings. When there was only one heater, I just put a 90 onto a one foot piece for the intake

As for condensation, they produce quite a bit, about a gallon per hour in this area, it's humid here

I haven't ever priced the cost of installing one, I know our cost for just the unit is about 1600 for the GU195, or about 800 for a Noritz. But once you factor in the costs of the stainless vent pipe, the remote, and the isolation kit, the cost is pretty close



Plumbworker said:


> i was told that the built in mixing valve was not adjustable and fixed at 120 F.. is that true? I would like more adjustable range if needed


The built in thermostat can be set from 90F to 140F, but there are ways to make it run hotter if you call tech support


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*you for got some things to add*



sikxsevn said:


> Yes, air intake and exhaust. The intake does not have to be piped to outside, but I do in installations where there were two heaters, so there's already two flashings. When there was only one heater, I just put a 90 onto a one foot piece for the intake
> 
> As for condensation, they produce quite a bit, about a gallon per hour in this area, it's humid here
> 
> ...


 
It appears that the unit requires no extra large gas line going to it either.... 
I notice you have used the common yellow flex lines so that is another saveings 
over the Nortiz...... whatever it cost to get the unit a 3/4 inch line or larger...


also a lot of times you have to relocate the Tankless units to a closer side wall....

the isolation kits, and the service call to de-lime the unit can be substantail .....


*so these units sweat like pigs...* 
then it is wise to be sure you have a close drain for
them or install a condensation pump???

I am itching to try one in my own home... I got a 75 gal bradford white
at the present time with a gas meter on it that I have run for about 4 years now

....what size would be the best one to install.

I also see a recirulation pump on this unit....in your pictures 
how well does it do with one of those in the line??

..


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> It appears that the unit requires no extra large gas line going to it either....
> I notice you have used the common yellow flex lines so that is another saveings
> over the Nortiz...... whatever it cost to get the unit a 3/4 inch line or larger...
> 
> ...


the units in the pictures have mostly undersized gas systems, so we convert them to medium pressure. Thus the regulators. The yellow gas flexes you see are 3/4" ID and flow 299,000 BTU. The GU195 used 199,000 btu. 

On every unit we install we throw in annual tuneups. Tbh this comprises of opening up the case, inspecting it, cleaning out the condensate trap, and flushing the tank. On every 1st and 2nd tuneup I've done, every unit has been sediment free

As for condensation, you have a few options. Since it's acidic, you can either tie it into the T&P or pan drain if you use a condensate neutralizer, but it could freeze up in the winter. Or you could run it into the sanitary sewer somehow, via a hub drain, branch tailpiece on a service sink or something, or use a condensate pump and tie it into an ac condensate. 

As for sizing, I would totally go with the GU195, it's only $300 more than the GU145

It works well with a recirc system, either true recirc or a retro-fit system. Since it uses a 2gal tank, and it keeps the water in that tank hot, it will run without keeping the burner firing all the time as long as the flow rate is less than .5 gpm


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

Oh, and by the way, one of the best things about the eternal units is when they can't keep up with the demand, they compromise on temperature instead of flow rates. Instead of the flow ring reduced to a trickle when you turn every thin on at once you get tepid water


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

sikxsevn said:


> Oh, and by the way, one of the best things about the eternal units is when they can't keep up with the demand, they compromise on temperature instead of flow rates. Instead of the flow ring reduced to a trickle when you turn every thin on at once you get tepid water


See to me that is unacceptable. I will be in a shower , and someone decides to turn on the washing machine, all of a sudden I get a wave of cold water. Not acceptable at all. Just as a undersized tankless system is unacceptable to me as well.

If I am going to sell them a tankless or hybrid system I will size it where all the fixtures can run and you will get full flow as well as the desired temperature. So if the Eternal I will install as many as needed to ensure that they will get hot water at all the fixtures while all of them are running. 

I always wondered how guys get away with installing an inadequate tankless or hybrid systems and not get dinged by the code.


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

Sewer ratz, have you installed pre filters on your noritz units to help with the scaling issues in the country installs?


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> See to me that is unacceptable. I will be in a shower , and someone decides to turn on the washing machine, all of a sudden I get a wave of cold water. Not acceptable at all. Just as a undersized tankless system is unacceptable to me as well.
> 
> If I am going to sell them a tankless or hybrid system I will size it where all the fixtures can run and you will get full flow as well as the desired temperature. So if the Eternal I will install as many as needed to ensure that they will get hot water at all the fixtures while all of them are running.
> 
> I always wondered how guys get away with installing an inadequate tankless or hybrid systems and not get dinged by the code.


I do get your point, and we do advise the customer as to their best options. We can't put a tankless in every house, sometimes there just isn't a way to make it work, or the hot system is too large for a tankless to be able to keep up with the demand

We offer a 2 year test drive on all of our tankless installations, if they aren't happy we'll pull the tankless and put back in tanks. We've only ever had to do it once, and it wasn't because of lack of hot water either, it was noise. My biggest complaint about theeternal units is they aren't exactly silent


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

With the Noritz you can put in up to 24 units in one place to handle the demand. I have 6 restaurants that are using tankless. 3 of them have 6 units and the other 3 have 5 units. When the dishwasher, all the sinks, pot, triple, prep, hand wash x10, bar, and bathroom sinks are all running at once all the units fire up. But during normal peak hours I might be lucky to see 4 fire up at once. But having the extras are nice in case a unit goes down. 

One of the restaurants did have a heater go out due to a pinhole leak one one of the internal pipes near a brazed joint. And one other unit was not on a surge suppressor and its circuit board ended up with a bad ground which was causing a code 11 and 12 fault. They where with out two heaters for a day and a half, they did notice a slight fall in flow during th peak hours but nothing that they couldn't handle. But they would of been in huge trouble if they only had 3 or 4 units installed and had 2 of them go down. For most homes around here 1 large unit can handle all the fixtures at once. But I prefer to go down one size and install two of them, this way they save a few bocks on cost, and have a back up if one goes down for service. 

I do admit I like the fact if anything goes wrong in the units be it electronics, to piping, to the heat exchanger, you just replace the bad part unlike a tank heater when the tank leaks its time for a new heater. But thats all I like about it and that is the only selling point to me.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*how loud are they*

ok, if you install the largest Eternal ... I assume it
would keep up with what a 75 gallon heater set on 140 would put out??

and how loud is this unit anyway???


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Sewer, thanks for keeping down the fort in my absense. I just read all this and.....yes the coolade is flowing.

Pet peeve of mine.....3/4" gas line for this should work......jesus.....THe load and the distance determins the gas pipe size. The knee jerk reaction of 3/4" gas line is just wrong. This is basic gassing here, nothing difficult.

Since when does stainless steel not corrode or have places where scale can build up?

Little black specs.....this one made me laugh! "They even built us a new board".....really.....? No they didn't. They made a minor change, that you could have done yourself if you have a remote and a clue. To say the water gets brought up to a boil (212*f) then tempered back down is a half truth. Its about 140-160 depending on the unit. Units years ago that didn't do this sucked azz, now, all of them mix. U ever test the hardness? Do u understand what is happening when water rich in calcium and mag gets heated, does? Ever heard a tanked heater fart? Calcium carbonate can be black. Brown, teal and just about every other color. The advice to install a softener is the correct info. However if you read page 19 i think, the manual clearly tells you this. If you are installing a tankless and dont know the hardness, then you should be selling used cars....in either of those two jobs you never will know how the unit will perform. This is like basic math, one needs to have two variables to solve for...X Hardness IS one of those variables.

20 years no maint......really, tell ya what come back here in about 18 and let us know.

Better yet, what appliance can u buy off the shelf today that requires no work for the next 20 years?

Sixseven.....hay man, I'm sure your customers love you. I hope you make a ton of money...so take this as constructive.....if I had a guy working for me that did that kind of work I would make him redo it then fire his lazy azz. 

Anyone know the definition of plumb?

*–adverb *Also, plum. 
4. in a perpendicular or vertical direction. 
5. exactly, *precisely*, or directly. 
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plumb

Less materials? Sure.....

Thanks for keeping things straight around here Ron


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

Tankless said:


> take this as constructive.....if I had a guy working for me that did that kind of work I would make him redo it then fire his lazy azz.


I'll take the bait. How would _* YOU *_ install one? Photos would be even better. I'll even settle for pictures of an NRC-111, or equivalent.

Oh, and by the way, my 1985 year model Roper electric oven is still alive and kickin' like the day it was new, only maintenance has been the occasional can of oven cleaner.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Welcome back Tankless, you have been missed. 

I was going to say, any of you own a stainless steel pot? Boil water in it every day without washing it out, you will start to see mineral build up.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> ok, if you install the largest Eternal ... I assume it
> would keep up with what a 75 gallon heater set on 140 would put out??
> 
> and how loud is this unit anyway???


Master Mark, I think you are not understanding, the Eternal is a glorified Tankless heater. Instead of regulating flow it will sacrifice the temperature. So @ 6 GPM if you go two people in two showers and a third person starts laundry or takes a shower as well, they will have the same pressure like a tank heater but the water will get colder. Where a standard tankless they will lose some water pressure but maintain the temperature.


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## Jay S. (Aug 9, 2011)

Just got a call from a guy in a 13,000 square foot house currently using 2, 75gallon AO Smith powershots' and wants a quote for 2 Eternal's. Nice!


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

hmmmmm. im sure he will love those over his two 75's


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## JenkPlbg (Nov 27, 2011)

The only insight I have on the topic is that we were installing rinnai tankless heaters. They seemed to be high maintenance, and there were a lot more parts that can go wrong with them compared to an eternal. The venting is a lot cheaper to run compared to the rinnai as well.


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## plumjoe (Oct 21, 2009)




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## Jay S. (Aug 9, 2011)

One we did last week. 










It replaced a 50 gallon home depot **** electric water heater. 
They were spending 600-800 on hot water, that ran out after one lousy shower. 

They now have virtually unlimited hot water and at least 400 PER YEAR savings. 
Not too shabby I'd say. I got a perfect 100 score on the Eternal customer questionnaire too.


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## Jay S. (Aug 9, 2011)

Another one we did last week or the week before. The original call was to "repair" an old tankless water heater installed like complete cra_p. I told them I wouldn't be bothered with fixing such a junker, and recommended the Eternal. They never were able to run more than one fixture at a time, I told them with the Eternal that would be a memory. 
They went for it. 










The Eternal replaced a piece of junk Bosch. 



















We got a 96 on the customer questionnaire, so I guess they were 96% happy with everything.  

Hey you! Do you want some Eternal installations? Join us, we get calls from all over the country everyday for all types of water heater installations. We can only keep the Tri State & CT jobs for ourselves. That means we need plumbers to partner up with all over the country to take the jobs we're already getting calls for but can't physically get to. 
All we ask for is a very reasonable 7.5% of the completed jobs we set up for you. PM me if you want to BS, if your interested email me for a quick response [email protected] 

Dear, Plumbing Zone Staff-
If I'm breaking some kind of promotion rules please let this one slide. I'm a real plumber with some marketing knowledge and a niffy website, not a scum internet marketing salesman. I'm simply just trying to Not let these out-of-area-calls go to waste and instead set up some guys in the community to do the jobs we can't get to. I think it's a win win for the community, the plumbers that take some jobs, home owners in need of a good plumber, everyone. If you disagree or have another idea for me to explore please let me know. I value this site, if I had more time I'd be on every day. J.S.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

I have one of these things in the field (customer bought it, not me) and it's been nothing but trouble. I've been out to his house (90 mile round trip) 4 times on warranty calls that I have yet to be paid for. Based on what I know, I will never recommend one of these to a customer and I'll continue to sell Rinnai heaters as they are, by far, the most reliable in my experience.




Paul


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## plumbperfect59 (Mar 14, 2012)

What is code for raising it off the floor in a crawlspace? (I guess it's a silly question. Different in each area probably, but I am curious what the rules are in other places). It just so happens that we are looking to install a good tankless next week, so I appreciate the reference.


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## DoctorMendel (Jul 19, 2013)

Thanks for starting that topic.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

DoctorMendel said:


> Thanks for starting that topic.


Your comment means nothing unless you post a proper intro, if ya a plumber.


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## Carcharodon (May 5, 2013)

plumbperfect59 said:


> What is code for raising it off the floor in a crawlspace? (I guess it's a silly question. Different in each area probably, but I am curious what the rules are in other places). It just so happens that we are looking to install a good tankless next week, so I appreciate the reference.


For the externals per manufacturer instructions you only need clearance for commercial food service of 6 inches. I think think clearance from the bottom would not be an issue in a crawlspace, the clearance from the top, 12 inches, sides, 6 inches and the front, at least 6 but obviously as much as you can are the more important ones.

Have replaced more externals than we have installed, not reliable at all.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Carcharodon said:


> For the externals per manufacturer instructions you only need clearance for commercial food service of 6 inches. I think think clearance from the bottom would not be an issue in a crawlspace, the clearance from the top, 12 inches, sides, 6 inches and the front, at least 6 but obviously as much as you can are the more important ones.
> 
> Have replaced more externals than we have installed, not reliable at all.


" externals" PLEASE !! how can you be little a great product when you can't even call it by its proper name ?? 
Ladies & Gentlemen , I give you the root problem with the Internet .

Go away


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## Carcharodon (May 5, 2013)

Cal said:


> " externals" PLEASE !! how can you be little a great product when you can't even call it by its proper name ??
> Ladies & Gentlemen , I give you the root problem with the Internet .
> 
> Go away


Ok, psycho, I misspelled it, it was because my kindle did an auto correct on the word but if you want to go ahead and make a vast generalization about someone then, I believe you are what's wrong with the internet.
I am only going off what I have seen, installed around 7 or 8, had to replace around 4 and then fixed another 4 or 5.
My company does represent eternal when they need a technician to troubleshoot them so we do see more than most and granted a lot of the time it is due to improper installation but to say it is a great product is not too accurate.
You must work for eternal to be so uptight about it, chill out dude.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Carcharodon said:


> Ok, psycho, I misspelled it, it was because my kindle did an auto correct on the word but if you want to go ahead and make a vast generalization about someone then, I believe you are what's wrong with the internet.
> I am only going off what I have seen, installed around 7 or 8, had to replace around 4 and then fixed another 4 or 5.
> My company does represent eternal when they need a technician to troubleshoot them so we do see more than most and granted a lot of the time it is due to improper installation but to say it is a great product is not too accurate.
> You must work for eternal to be so uptight about it, chill out dude.


Calm yourself with the " psycho" talk sonny. No need to step in the ring yet.
I DO NOT work for Eternal but I have installed several of their units.
To date they have been flawless. As all things in our trades improper installation causes MOST failures / problems.

My point is this, as far as tankless goes. Eternals are easier to install, not requiring the maintenance of all others , given the best tech support, given the best service to the customers of all the other brands I've installed.

That many failures of what you wrote,,, come on,, it's either installation or environmental conditions . 
Have they fully stood behind their product with support & replacement ? 
My guess is yes !


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## Carcharodon (May 5, 2013)

Cal said:


> Calm yourself with the " psycho" talk sonny. No need to step in the ring yet.
> I DO NOT work for Eternal but I have installed several of their units.
> To date they have been flawless. As all things in our trades improper installation causes MOST failures / problems.
> 
> ...


Only calling it as I see it, granted some of the ones eternal get us to look at are due to improper installation, usually venting but they are by no means flawless, there have been many that have been installed correctly that have failed, a lot of the time the whole unit has to be replaced, yes eternal does offer great tech support and customer service but for a premium product it is what I would expect. Our shop is even considering not installing them anymore.
I was talking to a Bradford white rep a few weeks ago and he said that eternal got too big too fast and are now struggling a bit with some of the problems with them, something about outsourcing cheaper parts too, but that could be all BE too and I would take it with a pinch of salt. 
Have they not changed their warranty also ? I think they have reduced it.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Carcharodon said:


> Only calling it as I see it, granted some of the ones eternal get us to look at are due to improper installation, usually venting but they are by no means flawless, there have been many that have been installed correctly that have failed, a lot of the time the whole unit has to be replaced, yes eternal does offer great tech support and customer service but for a premium product it is what I would expect. Our shop is even considering not installing them anymore.
> I was talking to a Bradford white rep a few weeks ago and he said that eternal got too big too fast and are now struggling a bit with some of the problems with them, something about outsourcing cheaper parts too, but that could be all BE too and I would take it with a pinch of salt.
> Have they not changed their warranty also ? I think they have reduced it.


 Thank you for your insights sir . Will keep an eye open .


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## Carcharodon (May 5, 2013)

Have had to replace 2 more in the past few days, one was for a faulty water pressure switch which resulted in all the circuits in the tank getting fried.

Other was due to the water being supplied from a well and the system in place is not adequate for the eternal, water softener company is going to reevaluate the system. In fairness to eternal, they replaced it for free even with that issue but won't do it again obviously.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Thank you. Will keep eyes and ears open. Have had no issues to this point and pray it stays this way .


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

I've heard enough bad things from other plumbers, supply houses, and homeowners that I avoid Eternal Tankless all together.

I usually recommend Rinnai first and then Navien second. I just don't like the idea of PVC for the exhaust.


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## double45 (Sep 7, 2013)

"Carcharodon said:


> Have they not changed their warranty also ? I think they have reduced it.


Navien actually has the worst warranty of all 3 with labor/parts/heat exchanger at 1/5/10. Whereas rinnai and eternal both have 15 years on the exchanger. In the past year we have installed about 15 eternals all went very smoothly and have had no problems as of yet. On the other hand we've installed 3 naviens and 2 rinnais and have had a problem with 1 of each. Just my experience so far


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## plumber78 (Nov 14, 2013)

I'm new but I ran across this thread and thought I would throw in my 2 cents. We install Navien and I have no experience with this brand so I am not commenting on the unit itself however there are a few things I thought I would address. 

I think people have a hard time realizing that tankless water heaters are not sized like tank type heaters are. Tankless will provide an unlimited amount of hot water if the demand does not exceed that of the tankless capability in gpm. Seems pretty obvious but it is hard to get through some people's heads. Instead of just figuring how much storage you need for a family or business to use, you need to take it a step further and figure out how many potential fixtures are going to be used at one time and what are the gpm of each one. Instead of figuring out how quickly will a tank be drawn down, we need to know how much water is needed immediately. 

Navien has a stainless steel heat exchanger as well and we install a scale inhibitor cartridge on every install. We also strongly advise our customers to have us service and flush the unit yearly even though Navien does not make it a requirement. (They do have requirements on water quality however.) Stainless steel may not build up as quickly as a copper heat exchanger, however, it will over time. If the owner asks, I am even willing to have my tech show them how do flush it themselves on our first maintenance visit just to make sure that it gets done. It might be overkill but it will eliminate problems in the future. 

I tried to read everything in this thread but did skim read some of it for time's sake. One question I saw thrown up was how can one tankless operate differently than another tankless on the same size gas line. I will use Navien as an example since that is what I am familiar with. With the 1st and 2nd generation Navien units gas sizing was extremely crucial to proper operation. Even the slightest pressure drop would have them acting crazy. I have a 1st generation in my house and I ran 1-1/4" 40' to where it and my furnace split off just to be sure that I was covered. With the 3rd gen, they claim that the new unit can be run a 1/2" line run up to 24' and I am being told it will run with massive pressure drop (almost down to nothing). The difference is in how the unit gets gas. The 1st and 2nd gen units used the system pressure to deliver the gas to the burners where as the 3rd gen uses a negative pressure gas valve and a fan that will actually pull gas into the unit.

We sell a fair amount of tankless, however I stress to each person that asks me about them that these are a high maintenance item. When we first started installing them we had many unhappy customers after they realized what needed to be done maintenance wise and we had not forewarned them. I would rather not have the sale, then install one and have a pissed off customer a couple years down the road.


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## plumber78 (Nov 14, 2013)

double45 said:


> Navien actually has the worst warranty of all 3 with labor/parts/heat exchanger at 1/5/10. Whereas rinnai and eternal both have 15 years on the exchanger. In the past year we have installed about 15 eternals all went very smoothly and have had no problems as of yet. On the other hand we've installed 3 naviens and 2 rinnais and have had a problem with 1 of each. Just my experience so far


 
Warranty info from Navien site. Residentially they are on par with the other units you listed, not sure how other manufacturers handle commercial/space heat installations.

_"For NR/NP Series installed in residential applications (Domestic Hot Water Use Only): 15 Years on the Heat Exchanger, 5 years on all other parts and components, and 1 year on labor (manufacturer’s defect).
_
_For NP Series installed in commercial use or residential space heating use: 10 Years on the Heat Exchanger, 3 years on all other parts and components, and 1 year on labor (manufacturer’s defects). "_


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## gdplmr (Apr 17, 2014)

I have had to remove and refund several Eternal installations here in Seattle. Not recommended for north of San Jose, Kansas City, or Charlotte. Even on 2 bath Condos.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

gdplmr said:


> I have had to remove and refund several Eternal installations here in Seattle. Not recommended for north of San Jose, Kansas City, or Charlotte. Even on 2 bath Condos.


What did u replace them with??


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## gdplmr (Apr 17, 2014)

Why you bugging me? Afraid somebody might know more than you? FYI that is a strong possibility. Ask me nicely.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

gdplmr said:


> Why you bugging me? Afraid somebody might know more than you? FYI that is a strong possibility. Ask me nicely.


I never worry about ones that know more than I do anymore than I know more than others..


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## gdplmr (Apr 17, 2014)

Almost SEVEN THOUSAND posts, no doubt as meaningful as your last one.
Try again.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Has anybody heard that eternal has been having weld failure on tankless heaters? Same source is pushing intellahot as the superior product. Just wondering if the weld thing was true.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

As cool as some of the tankless stuff is, hard to beat a plain jane tank type water heater.....


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## gdplmr (Apr 17, 2014)

*eternal*

The problem we are having with these units has to do with our temperature of the ground and the amount of temperature rise the unit is capable of achieving. Water service runs at 40 to 45 from Dec to Feb. These units are developed and tested in the southern states where the incoming water temp is 60+. I am currently working on a pre- heater prototype to solve this problem. BTW they gave the people their tank type heaters back. The claim of " endless" hot water is not true in this application.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

gdplmr said:


> The problem we are having with these units has to do with our temperature of the ground and the amount of temperature rise the unit is capable of achieving. Water service runs at 40 to 45 from Dec to Feb. These units are developed and tested in the southern states where the incoming water temp is 60+. I am currently working on a pre- heater prototype to solve this problem. BTW they gave the people their tank type heaters back. The claim of " endless" hot water is not true in this application.


so was the thermal shock breaking welds? If so intelahot hot may be a superior product.


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

I've installed 4 of these things. Their alright i'm not the biggest fan of them i still preferr Takagi tankless over these things. The main issue i've had with these are ..


They had a defective plastic water pressure switch that would disinegrate break and damage the entire unit and cause thousands in water damage to property's.. Luckly they fiqured this out and issued some recall notices to people who registered their units.. They Also realized that the water pressure switch is completely unnecessary.. they send a stainless steel threaded plug to go in place of the switch that connects to the hot water outlet inside the heater's cabinet and a short jumper wire to connect to the electrical leads.. I've had to replace one of these units already because the pressure switch cracked luckly for the customer the unit was installed in a mech room with concrete floors with proper floor drain so property damage was minimal.. But i've also gotten calls from people who recieved recall notices (i'm factory authorized service providor) when i removed the pressure switch's they would usually snap right at the threads.. their like ticking time bombs the ones that do unthread i can easily break them apart in my hands without much effort.. 

So everyone here should contact their customers with these units to inform them about the recall.. Grandhall had two different versions of these pressure switches the all white plastic ones are the worst the darker grey ones with stainless threads dont seem to be failing but all the switches are recalled and to be replaced anyways..

The other reason's are the fact about re-circ options they have some very fine print on the piping diagrams in the manual about setting the pump aquastat to 20degrees below the set point of the heater as their unit has a fixed differential and if the water is coming back is too hot on the cold inlet the burner will rapidly short cycle.. I found this out because i had a customer who had another company install a combi system with radiant infloor heat off of a flat plate exchanger and the burner was shorting every tens seconds when the thermostat called for heat soo bad in fact it wore out the coil burner ignitor within 6 months.. They have no explaination for this in the manual i had to call grandhall and talk to two clueless service techs until they put me on with their engineer who explained about the water coming back too hot the the unit and the fixed differential.. 


The last one is they can only put out about 6gpm with the incoming water temps in my area..


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## SSP (Dec 14, 2013)

*Ask more questions... mostly to yourselves though...*



sikxsevn said:


> A couple more:


.. . Sorry i'm Canadian and i've yet to hear of this eternal hybrid over-hyped mumbo jumbo stuff... i know all about norwitz the shocking thing is how overly critical people are here, and yet this guy posts straight [email protected] hack work... some of the most disgraceful sh1t i've ever seen...:yes:
And people are like ya looks great tell me more... or whatever, i lightly skimmed through this 

But do recall OP or a supporter of eternal challenge to post traditional tankless installs that equate to the eternal hype machine... Not to beat a dead horse , but i just noticed this thread and just happened to install a new Navien 240 NPE in a smaller commercial coffee shop... good thing i took pictures ... even though i'm not at all proud of them... just the standard work i do :whistling2:

I read manufacturer spec's and install manuals inside out before i even consider proposing a unit or begin designing a heating system for a customer. I do not claim to be any sort of wizard or mad genius that just discovered the cure for endless hot water like tankless heater guys though.. because anybody why knows anything at all about hydroponic (funny i spelt Hydronic and it auto-correct to that, too late i'm keeping it) heating can smell the used car sales man snake oil from a mile away... You my friend are not only deceiving your customers but creating future issues i'm sure you are yet to be aware of... 

A good friend once told me i could sell igloos in Hawaii if i wanted too... so i shall take the same approach OP did, but with a recent Navien install i half a$$ed and slapped in within an hour and had it running immediately after... 
Just to demonstrate the true effectiveness of sales tactics that work really well on people who have no previous supporting arguments one way or another, kinda like home owners... they usually have odd, seemingly unrelated questions or concerns anyways.. like "how much money will i save if i use cascade soap in my dishwasher ? " 

So without further ado i present to you! the NEW and improved wait scratch that NEW and PERFECTED BEST TANKLESS UNIT EVER MADE NAVIEN 240NPE... Its so elegantly simple, comprised soley with industry leading high performance parts and features that make it so easy a hack from home depot could probably install one! 
*Not just one but TWO yes you read right this unit features a DUAL SS Heat Exchanger!! To provide ultra long lasting life unlike flawed traditionals that have copper heat exhangers! Plus you get DOUBLE THE HEAT EXCHANGER!
*Looking for high efficiency, like +95%? Well look no further this unit is CRUSHING the competition at 98%, holy cow i CAN FEEL THE SAVINGS ALREADY do you FEEL IT YET?? Wait there is more...!!
*This Tankless heater doesn't make you wait for hot water, UNLIKE ALL OTHERS on the market TODAY, included in this masterpiece is our own ground-breaking COMFORT FLOW TECHNOLOGY including a BUFFER TANK with a RE-CIRCULATION PUMP to completely ELIMINATE cold-water sandwiches and issues requiring MINIMAL FLOW RATES, SHAVE AWAY GENTS SHAVE AWAY
*This Ultra-mega Super efficient industry champion has such low exhaust temperatures you can USE 2" PVC up to 60 F1_1CKING FEET!! you KNOW how cheap that sh1t is, don't act like your not impressed! 
*Happen to live on a mountain or super high altitudes? NO PROBLEM NPE is designed so perfectly its already OPTIMIZED TO OPERATE EFFICIENTLY and out-perform ANY OTHER OLD TANKLESS OUT THERE up to at a WHOPPING 10,000 FEET!! YOU CAN INSTALL THIS SH1T in THE CLOUDS!!
*Happen to have Propane not nat gas, no problem AT ALL, FIELD GAS CONVERTIBILITY HAS NEVER BEEN MORE ADVANCED THAN NAVIENS NEGATIVE PRESSURE GAS VALVE AND DUAL VENTURI SYSTEM!! See that word again dual? You're getting TWICE as much VENTURI!!! You're the homeowner and none of this makes sense anyways and i know you're not gonna double check because wait... yes... there is more
*Navien proudly introduces groundbreaking technology, similar to that of your dvd player... with INTELLIGENT PREHEATING TECHNOLOGY, that is like the US government, its gonna watch ya, its gonna figure out what your up to AND IT WILL INTELLIGENTLY RECOGNIZE HOT WATER USAGE PATTERNS TO PROVIDE HOT WATER WHEN NEEDED!!! Can i get a [email protected] YA?!
*EASILY THE BEST CHOICE YOU WILL EVER MAKE IN YOUR LIFE , just take a LOOK AT THAT 15 YEAR residential warranty on the HEAT EXCHANGERS!! the print gets really small now, because the commercial version is only 5 years ! 
*WITH CASCADING CAPABILITIES THE NPE is OPTIMAL FOR ANY INSTALL EVER NO MATTER HOW HUGE !! THINK OF THE SAVINGS AGAIN!!
*UNLIKE our "competition" (they call themselves that, not us) you won't ever know this thing is RUNNING,ITS QUIETER THAN A CHURCH FART! 
*Require high GPMS? SAVE A TON OF MONEY BY ONLY INSTALLING ONE NPE WHEREAS The "competition" will try to sell you 2 or even 3 units to MATCH ITS 11.2 GPM FLOW RATE at 35F!! 

Eternal Pimp says 1800 his cost and he's purchased and installed over 140?!? 
For the "commercial" "higher" grade aka referred to as the "larger" unit since we are only plumbers and GPMs confuse us, BUT WAIT THERES MORE!!! THAT is STILL nowhere near the quality of the NPE and cost around $2000!!
SIT DOWN PLEASE, THIS IS GONNA KNOCK YOU RIGHT OFF YOUR CHAIR.. MY COST drumroll.... is a MERE $1600!! And this is ONLY THE SECOND ONE I'VE EVER INSTALLED ... FUUUKKK MANN WOWWWWWW

"LET ME HELP YOU UP SO YOU CAN HAND ME YOUR MONEY NOW" 

Ok i will admit , i kinda killed it there and over-exaggerated somewhat here and there, for demonstrative purposes as i have no real reason to be such a d1ck about something i really don't care about or have a strong opinion on. but double check it all because thats damn near word for word out of there Navien sales package... I just added some used car salesman on cable tv flare to it... :jester:

The point i am really trying to make though, is how easy it really is to absorb certain beliefs if you have no previous ideological stand-points to cross reference with. How are home-owners supposed to verify any of the details that apparently a bunch of professional plumbers don't even know about? People are dumb enough to drink "diet" soda for crying out loud for weight loss, as if the deadly aspartame could do so in a healthy fashion. So the un-informed and un-aware HOs really believe what you say...even when its dressed up with hogwash, YET they still trust you to present them with the most informed best suited options to their specific application. I could easily do the same example with Bosch, Rinnai, external , norwitz, etc.. and any homeowner will be likely to lean towards my biased "professional" opinion anyways especially if i offer trade knowledge and insider experience with any particular unit. The truth be told, i've only installed a few as an apprentice helping my boss and knew nothing about them really, until i got a call requesting one, then i did everything i could to research and learn everything i could about tankless heating solutions. Leading me to come to the zone and became highly highly discouraged in the concept as they are over-hyped systems already and then most pro's seem very biased against them, and for very sound logical reasons. I was 100% convinced all tankless units are European crap, waste of money, and completely use-less in comparison to a tank heater... especially after the marketing scheme on how the units are so much cheaper to operate since you don't have latent heat loss from heating and containing the water all day like a storage tank.. they even advertised its free while on holidays, well so is your HWT if you put it on pilot mode for a month on vacation.

. I had optimal conditions to make this unit work, since the water line to the unit has to run through 150+ Feet in heated ceiling space before hitting my tenant space the supply water would be room temperature upon entry into the unit. i could have used 1/2" BLK iron or 3/4" CSST as i was 15' from the meter, but that's never appealing to me... I also only had to run my vents less than 30' total combines length, making the 2" CPVC an option, with a proper rough-in made it literally an hour to unpack and install, easiest thing i've ever done. But i am still not on Naviens DiKK saying how great it is, i'm saying there is a potentially great unit that will suit your needs, and capable of satisfying your customers needs / budget. Only extensive research indicated this for me though. I'm not even opposed to the eternal system or their marketing strategy, just really felt like being a bit of an a$$ on my day off :laughing: :yes::whistling2:


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

We are in our 4th year of installing Eternals and have had zero problems. Of course they have to be installed correctly. I have the GU195 in my house (2 Yrs) and it performs exceptionally well. 

But as with any high tech item, we are careful with how we install it. The btu needs in the house are compared to the meter, gas pressure is checked, full port ball valve for the gas line, etc, etc.

We install 10-20 units a year.

David


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## MattZone (Mar 28, 2014)

You pay $1,600 for a NPE240A?

I am getting them at $1,100 + tax.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

MattZone said:


> You pay $1,600 for a NPE240A?
> 
> I am getting them at $1,100 + tax.


Maybe that's Canadian dollars. Still fun to read that rant occasionally.

David


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## david thompson (Sep 18, 2014)

Tell me how is this better than say the Noritz NRC111 gives 5.3 GPM @ 70º temperature rise which is not Noritz largest unit but same BTU's as the Eternal GU195 and uses PVC venting.


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

david thompson said:


> Tell me how is this better than say the Noritz NRC111 gives 5.3 GPM @ 70º temperature rise which is not Noritz largest unit but same BTU's as the Eternal GU195 and uses PVC venting.


Not a plumber here, been asked a few times and not intro yet!!!


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## Ncplumber84 (Dec 30, 2014)

The company I work for was putting in eternals before I started and now they are taking them out and replacing them. Boss said they have had nothing but problems.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

How come I don't pull any out? We've been installing them for 5 years. Residential only though, they are not good for commercial.


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## Ncplumber84 (Dec 30, 2014)

Not sure all I know is they say they had a lot of issues with them can ask and get back with you.


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## Carcharodon (May 5, 2013)

The water pressure switch was a major issue with them as it started to fail, thus the unit needs to be replaced and in some cases causing property damage. 
They did a recall but still an issue.
If you have a recirc line then the temp valve is likely to go a lot quicker. 
They can be a bit loud, some guys will attach them direct to the house without a spacer.
If they are not installed 100% to manufacture specs then you will have issues.
You have to educate the customer on cleaning tje water filter once a year depending on their area.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Carcharodon said:


> The water pressure switch was a major issue with them as it started to fail, thus the unit needs to be replaced and in some cases causing property damage.
> They did a recall but still an issue.
> If you have a recirc line then the temp valve is likely to go a lot quicker.
> They can be a bit loud, some guys will attach them direct to the house without a spacer.
> ...


Those are all correct. The last paragraph is most important. We install and check everything. Gas pressure is very important. Enough of a pressure drop during use and there will be combustion issues. 

We recently installed their GU120 (1/2" gas supply) and the pressure drop was too much. For an additional fee we ended up increasing the existing 1/2" pipe in the crawl space to 3/4" and the pressure issue went away.

Do not install an Eternal without a digital gas manonmeter.

David


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## Carcharodon (May 5, 2013)

dhal22 said:


> Those are all correct. The last paragraph is most important. We install and check everything. Gas pressure is very important. Enough of a pressure drop during use and there will be combustion issues.
> 
> We recently installed their GU120 (1/2" gas supply) and the pressure drop was too much. For an additional fee we ended up increasing the existing 1/2" pipe in the crawl space to 3/4" and the pressure issue went away.
> 
> ...


Yea, I always run a designated line from gas meter


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

How about that? Vast differences in opinion elsewhere but the only plumber I've ever met online that doesn't hate Eternal.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

When I was in business I installed many Eternal's with limited issues. I had factory training in Dallas , so when warranty issues arose I was payed a better rate than non trained individuals. My opinion of Eternal is that it is a fine product with a great tech staff. Like stated before, has to be installed correctly, and set up with proper equipment(just like any other piece of equipment) I've had just as many issues with Navian and other equipment


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

dhal22 said:


> How about that? Vast differences in opinion elsewhere but the only plumber I've ever met online that doesn't hate Eternal.


Hey ! I've stated that I love Eternal ! Wtf ? Lol! Happy New Year !!


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Well how about that? Multiple Eternal fans...... Installed properly (and neatly) it is an impressive finished product. That helps when customers write the big check.


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## Ncplumber84 (Dec 30, 2014)

OK talked to the boss this morning and his only answer was they are a piece of $$$$ so I don't know guess our guys just didn't put them in properly


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

I would guess that we've installed 50 or so Eternals with zero issues. Ok, a condensate pipe developed a pinhole leak. I have the big one installed at my house and the performance is awesome.

Having said that, every install is vented properly (3"), gas pressure test and adjusted, gas pipe size is maximum size, I don't even use gas cocks, only full port ball valves.

They look great, perform well, the multiple unique ideas all make for an easy highly profitable sale.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

dhal22 said:


> I would guess that we've installed 50 or so Eternals with zero issues. Ok, a condensate pipe developed a pinhole leak. I have the big one installed at my house and the performance is awesome.
> 
> Having said that, every install is vented properly (3"), gas pressure test and adjusted, gas pipe size is maximum size, I don't even use gas cocks, only full port ball valves.
> 
> They look great, perform well, the multiple unique ideas all make for an easy highly profitable sale.



Your not even allowed 2" venting on the unit anymore. They did have some issues with 2" venting. Still a great unit


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

plumbdrum said:


> Your not even allowed 2" venting on the unit anymore. They did have some issues with 2" venting. Still a great unit


I did not consider 2" big enough even back when they allowed it. I required our installs to be 3" every time. 

One of my grumbling plumbers kept handing me Navian brochures, hoping I would switch to something vented in 2".

David


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

It is all junk....

... when not installed properly.

Eternal is no better than a Noritz, Takagi and Rinnai. They all provide the approximately the same gallons per minute with the needed temperature rise. 

Only difference is Eternal is the only one that does not throttle down the flow to ensure the desired water temperature is met. So when the demand is greater than the GPM the unit can provide people will end up with the water temperature dropping. To me that is a bad thing, someone is in the shower, and someone else decides to run the wash , the dishwasher which will exceed the GPM requirement to provide hot enough water, and the person in the shower may adjust the temperature of their water so it wont feel too cold, and when the washing machine is done filling up the water temperature will spike back up, and the person in the shower may end up with a thermal shock.

Tankless heaters like Noritz, they throttle the flow of water so it will maintain the water set temperature even when the flow rate demand is greater than the heater can flow. So the person in the shower may notice a drop in water pressure, and might try to adjust the flow at the shower valve and again when the washing machine is done the pressure will increase and a thermal shock may happen.

Now the only way to ensure the above scenarios doesn't happen is to properly size the tankless systems to handle a full demand peak load. In most cases two Eternals, or Noritz units would handle most homes. 

Myself even if a single large unit could handle the demand of the whole house, I still would opt to install two of the medium sized units. This way if one of the heaters needs to be taken out of service while parts are ordered the home still will have hot water and just needs to adjust how they use it till the other heater is repaired.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Just add a flame job and all your problems are solved,


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> It is all junk....
> 
> ... when not installed properly.
> 
> ...


You are correct on Eternal not throttling the water flow. I just crank up the temperature and make it work harder. 

I keep a backup Eternal unit at our shop for any customer water heater problems. So far only a condensate tube had to be pulled off it.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

A response to the Eternal is no better than any other brand comment recently. My Eternal sale yesterday. 

One GU195 with extra gas pipe and venting $4500ish
Metlund pump with infrared motion sensor 2000ish
Two gas regulators with gas pipe rework
installed 900

Premium water heater package total $7500

I've sold this package a few times before. That won't happen with a Takagi or a Bosch.

David


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

I've installed a bunch of these in the past... About half of them have come back to haunt me. Tankless technology is nothing more than marketing hype.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> I've installed a bunch of these in the past... About half of them have *come back to haunt me*. Tankless technology is nothing more than marketing hype.


In what way? Customer dissatisfaction? Product failure?


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

gear junkie said:


> In what way? Customer dissatisfaction? Product failure?


Both


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

I have 99% product performance record and a 100% happy customer satisfaction record and I've done this for years. Two issues only, a failing blower motor on a Rennai a few years ago and a leaking condensate tube on an Eternal. 

I have many many emails from happy customers thanking us for their wonderful hot water device.


David


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Most failures are installer error


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Both


Are you able to elaborate or just not care too?


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> I've installed a bunch of these in the past... About half of them have come back to haunt me. Tankless technology is nothing more than marketing hype.



Then you didn't install them right. Or you installed junk heaters. Or you've had unbelievably bad luck.


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