# The true Rehau story



## user823

I have seen Rehau brought up here a few times. Some folks trying to use the company as an example of pex failures. That notion is just not true. Rehau will still be making and selling PEX but have redirected their efforts towards the pexA radiant heating sector and other heating sectors and still using PEX. They have also decided to quit the PVC sewer and drain business also, funny how that never comes up? hmm
There is such a large market out there, so many companies selling "their" pex. We all know the biggest sellers are Wirsbo and Viega. Like any other newer product, only the strong will survive. It has NOTHING to do with pex failures.
http://www.pmmag.com/Articles/Breaking_News/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000457694


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## Ron

We use Rehau pex pipe exclusively here for all pex installations.


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## user823

Ron The Plumber said:


> We use Rehau pex pipe exclusively here for all pex installations.


Looks like it will still be available in the states until stock runs out. I think that alone speaks volumes. If there was a problem, as some have insisted, they wouldn't still be selling it would they?:thumbsup:


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## user823

Rehau decided to change directions and focus on this:


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## WestCoastPlumber

Rehau to me was the best pex system, the fittings were more expensive, but proved to be a better seal.

now, wirsbo has something like this system. the brass cplg system.


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## user823

WestCoastPlumber said:


> Rehau to me was the best pex system, the fittings were more expensive, but proved to be a better seal.
> 
> now, wirsbo has something like this system. the brass cplg system.


I heard Wirsbo was coming out with something new but haven't heard what. You already know I like the Viega system, the SS sleeves in the Viega Pureflow system is similar.


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## WestCoastPlumber

ironranger said:


> I heard Wirsbo was coming out with something new but haven't heard what. You already know I like the Viega system, the SS sleeves in the Viega Pureflow system is similar.


 
I am in love with anything Viega, so I will check them out!


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## ILPlumber

I'm pex ignorant. Educate me. Is there a standard for sizing of pex tubing like other pipe or tubing. 

I guess my actual question is: Are all the manufacturer's tubing and fittings interchangable.

I have only used this stuff on radiant tube slab heat. It had compression fittings at the manifolds.


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## Ron

ILPlumber said:


> I'm pex ignorant. Educate me. Is there a standard for sizing of pex tubing like other pipe or tubing.
> 
> I guess my actual question is: Are all the manufacturer's tubing and fittings interchangable.
> 
> I have only used this stuff on radiant tube slab heat. It had compression fittings at the manifolds.



Pex is sized the same way copper gets sized, flow charts are in the code book.


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## user823

I'm not sure about other brands but Viega does have a flow and size chart on their website. Interchanging fittings is not a good idea. Wirsbo makes fittings for their pipe as does Viega for theirs. I wouldn't want to do anything to jeapordize the 25 year warranty of each, I only use Viega fittings in Viega pipe. Though I do see thousands of fittings that look close on eBay, I wouldn't use them.


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## ILPlumber

Ron The Plumber said:


> Pex is sized the same way copper gets sized, flow charts are in the code book.


 
I'll go peek in your code Ron. Our code doesn't have them. Barely touches on pex at all.


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## Ron

There is not allot of talk about pex in our code book, but the charts are found under Chapter 6 Water Supply and Distribution


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## user823

In the Minnesota Code book it says this:

*L.*

Cross-linked polyethylene (PEX) tubing 6M with fittings 6N or 6O shall be certified by an independent third-party certifier. The water distribution system shall be installed by a factory-trained installer in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions. Tubing and fittings must be marked with the appropriate ASTM designations by the manufacturer.


Not much more about it. I do like it that Minnesota requires the installer to be certified by the company. Not many homeowners I know of are certified and I let all my customers know it's required. Viega and Wirsbo both offer certification.


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## ILPlumber

Is there a maximum FPS for the metallic fittings?

How do you pipe a battery of 1" flushometers?

How big does pex go?


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## Ron

Pex is up to 2"


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## ILPlumber

Ron The Plumber said:


> Pex is up to 2"


I didn't know how large it went. Interesting topic. While I have no plans to start installing it. It never hurts to learn.


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## Ron

I have only done up to 1-1/2", any size above 1" your using wirsbo fitting.


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## user823

ILPlumber said:


> Is there a maximum FPS for the metallic fittings?
> 
> How do you pipe a battery of 1" flushometers?
> 
> How big does pex go?


I'm using bronze fittings, I believe they're worked out the same as the pipe. That's the way I've done it anyway, maybe it's wrong but it works. Max for what I'm using is about 12 FPS, 8 is required by code. I figure the psi x 2.307 = loss.
The battery of 1" flushometers would be plumbed the same way as you would use copper, depends on the amount. Viega makes pex up to 1", maybe larger but I sure don't use it.


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## uaplumber

Uponor is soon going to be rolling out larger sizes like 4"
Try hand expanding that!!
Truth be told it will be compression connections.


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## user4

uaplumber said:


> Uponor is soon going to be rolling out larger sizes like 4"
> Try hand expanding that!!
> Truth be told it will be compression connections.


Interesting, IL code will only allow a compression connection is it is exposed and easily accessible.


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## M5Plumb

Ron The Plumber said:


> We use Rehau pex pipe exclusively here for all pex installations.


Hey Ron, where are you getting your Rehau?? I used to pick it up at Keller's.


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## Ron

That's where we get ours, CSCO also carries it.


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## M5Plumb

Ron The Plumber said:


> I have only done up to 1-1/2", any size above 1" your using wirsbo fitting.


I've had to do the the 1-1/2" Rehau, that is a really cumbersome tool but well worth it's weight in gold, all that Rehau stuff is awesome for the underground work.


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## Ron

Yea, did you know the batteries can be charged in a dewalt charger?


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## Protech

Pex is CTS though the wall thickness is greater than copper for obvious reasons. Even though the ID is smaller due to the thicker walls you can still use the same size pex pipe in place of copper due to pex's greater erosion resistance and the pex is smoother than copper and can use less fittings. You don't have to factor in coppers increasing roughness with age nor reduction in diameter. 

The fittings are somewhat interchangeable. Pex-a is compatible with all connection types. Pex-b can only be used with crimp style connections, it can't be used with cold expansion type connections(upunor/wirsbo, rehau).



ILPlumber said:


> I'm pex ignorant. Educate me. Is there a standard for sizing of pex tubing like other pipe or tubing.
> 
> I guess my actual question is: Are all the manufacturer's tubing and fittings interchangable.
> 
> I have only used this stuff on radiant tube slab heat. It had compression fittings at the manifolds.


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## Protech

4" pex, my nipples are hard!!



uaplumber said:


> Uponor is soon going to be rolling out larger sizes like 4"
> Try hand expanding that!!
> Truth be told it will be compression connections.


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## PlumberJoe101

p{margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px;} 
This is good news for us Rehau fans.










*REHAU PEX Plumbing Products to Remain on the Market*
We are pleased to announce that Sioux Chief Manufacturing has purchased REHAU’s North American fittings business for plumbing systems applications and will begin offering F 2080 fittings effective April 1, 2009. REHAU will continue to supply our high-performance PEXa pipe for potable water applications.

Sioux Chief, a leading supplier of plumbing components, will expand into the manufacture and supply of complete fitting systems by assuming REHAU’s proven, high-quality line of compression sleeve fittings. The Sioux Chief product range will include:

-Sioux Chief F 2080 compression sleeve fittings
-Sioux Chief F 1807 crimp fittings

Under the agreement, REHAU will continue to ship compression sleeve fittings for potable water applications until March 31, 2009. Sioux Chief will begin shipping these fittings on April 1, 2009. 

REHAU will continue to produce and distribute PEXa plumbing pipe listed to NSF, CSA and AWWA current requirements. Our agreement with Sioux Chief further supports our continued supply of PEXa pipe, providing a solid foundation for our future PEXa-based system developments. Our development efforts are focused on fire protection and integrated low-temperature heat source and distribution applications, including radiant heating, geothermal ground loop and solar thermal systems.

Please contact your REHAU sales office with any questions or concerns.

Sincerely,
REHAU Construction LLC

Bill Johansen
Business Unit Manager
Building Technology


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## ILPlumber

Sioux Chief just keeps growing:thumbsup: I use quite a bit of their stuff. My favorite is their "finish line" stuff.


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## Rick Kelley

I agree, the "old timers" had some work to be proud of and sometimes unfortunately not so proud of. I am very fussy when it comes to craftsmanship even if its hidden in the walls. Sloppy work drives me nuts. I am known in the area as ANAL RETENTIVE.


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## PLUMB TIME

*Pex*

I had talked to a village official near where we are at and was referred to the code enforcement that does all inspections in this area. He told me that because pex had a smaller i.d. it couldn't be sized the same, all piping had to be increased one increment?

Pex has just been approved recently,couple years, but most towns by me still write it out of there code.

I agree with ilplumber that I dont use it but am willing to be educated.


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## user823

Where I'm at our code has us sizing pex the same as copper, no problems so far. Also, I guess this news says a lot about Rehau pex piping, it wasn't about quality but more of a change of direction for the company, GO PEX!!!!!!!!


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## jmreid73

Wirsbo's version of Rehau was the AXP (Or APX?) Fittings. Axial Press Fittings I believe it stood for. It was my understanding that they were dropping it for the same reason that Rehau was and it was over concerns of lead content in the fittings. No more brass pex fittings was what I was told. They will still use them for radiant heating, but not for potable water systems.


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## Redwood

Seems to be a little misconception on the size of PEX.
The O.D. is sized to CTS however, the thickness and I.D. is determined by SDR-9.

SDR means Standard Dimension Ratio and here's a link where you can see what it all means...
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/sdr-standard-dimension-ratio-d_318.html


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

I'm sworn to secrecy, but you all are in for a big surprise when it becomes public knowledge. 



You think my wife is ugly...wait till ya get a load of this! :laughing:


Give me months, I'll be back with the ****. :whistling2:


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## user823

It's been over 25 years with Viega and Wirsbo. You'll be waiting many many many months! hahaha
Viega Pureflow, bronze fittings, no dezincification. SS sleeves, no rusting out, no leaks, no weak joints. 
Wirsbo, plastic fittings no problems, pipe no problems. 
Bottom line, if you're going to use Pex then use quality, not big box store junk.
Attempting to bunch all pex products into one is crazy.
Because Eljer toilets suck do all toilets suck? Didn't think so.


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## user4

ironranger said:


> It's been over 25 years with Viega and Wirsbo. You'll be waiting many many many months! hahaha
> Viega Pureflow, bronze fittings, no dezincification. SS sleeves, no rusting out, no leaks, no weak joints.
> Wirsbo, plastic fittings no problems, pipe no problems.
> Bottom line, if you're going to use Pex then use quality, not big box store junk.
> Attempting to bunch all pex products into one is crazy.
> Because Eljer toilets suck do all toilets suck? Didn't think so.


A lot of that history is based on installations in Europe, where water is lightly treated if it is at all, some cities are drawing water out of rivers and distributing it with no treatment at all, where are the the proven studies with water that has gone through a treatment plant? Can they provide 25 year old examples of that?


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## Redwood

ironranger said:


> Because Eljer toilets suck do all toilets suck? Didn't think so.


I thought it was Gerber toilets that sucked...:laughing:


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## dahlman

ILPlumber said:


> I'm pex ignorant. Educate me. Is there a standard for sizing of pex tubing like other pipe or tubing.
> 
> I guess my actual question is: Are all the manufacturer's tubing and fittings interchangable.
> 
> I have only used this stuff on radiant tube slab heat. It had compression fittings at the manifolds.


Interchangeability is dictated by 1) whether the system is using PEX A or PEX B and 2) the pipe/system manufacturer's warranty, with the latter likely being of much more concern to any installer. On the other hand, there is much legal precedent when it comes to the finer points of warranty but a whole other topic...

All PEX is made to the ASTM F876 pipe standard. The system standard is F877 and was used to cover fittings as well until ASTM developed the F1807 standard specifically for metal insert fittings, which is why older parts are marked F877 and newer parts are marked F1807.

As previously posted, and the nominal size is determined by OD and wall thickness. 1/2 nominal (or 5/8 OD) PEX is approximately 0.473" nominal versus 1/2 Copper pipe at approx. 0.502" nominal.

There is PEX A, suitable for expansion, and PEX B, not suitable for expansion. Rehau and Uponor Wirsbo employ a cold expansion method (for use on PEX A only) in making up their joints so that the ID of their fittings can match the nominal size of the pipe, and use that as a selling feature over the competition with standard/generic F1807 crimp insert fittings that tend to have an ID in the area of 0.390"-0.395" (if I recall correctly).

As a result, ASTM established separate standards for both Rehau (F2080)and Wirsbo (F1960). The Wirsbo Axial Press connection is an F2080 fitting, by the way. 

It's odd that Rehau states that Sioux Chief will take over their F1807 fittings business - Sioux Chief already sells F1807 crimp fittings/products, just like everybody else; it's kind of like saying that their 2% milk is different than everybody else's...not.

Here are the standards as defined by ASTM. I'm certain there is another for Viega but don't recall off the top of my head. Hope this helped.

ASTM F876 - 08b Standard Specification for Crosslinked Polyethylene (PEX) Tubing

ASTM F877 - 07 Standard Specification for Crosslinked Polyethylene (PEX) Plastic Hot- and Cold-Water Distribution Systems

ASTM F1807 - 08 Standard Specification for Metal Insert Fittings Utilizing a Copper Crimp Ring for SDR9 Cross-linked Polyethylene (PEX) Tubing

ASTM F1960 - 08 Standard Specification for Cold Expansion Fittings with PEX Reinforcing Rings for Use with Cross-linked Polyethylene (PEX) Tubing

ASTM F2080 - 08 Standard Specification for Cold-Expansion Fittings With Metal Compression-Sleeves for Cross-Linked Polyethylene (PEX) Pipe


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## user823

Redwood said:


> I thought it was Gerber toilets that sucked...:laughing:


Gerbers suck great!:thumbup:


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## Ron

This is a good thread folks, lets keep it on topic please, there is a thread somewhere that talks about what is the best toilet.


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## Redwood

*Why not just spill the beans now Roast Duck?*

Why not just tell them what we know?

Pex problems to date:

1.) KITEC by IPEX, Discontinued Class Action Lawsuit...
Dezincification of the Brass Fittings.
http://www.plumbingdefect.com/index.html










2.) Zurn Q-PEX, Still being sold, Class Action Lawsuit.
Brass Fittings Breaking.
http://www.zurnclassaction.com/index.html










3.) Rehau PEX, Rehau Discontinuing Sold to Sioux Chief. ?
Corrosion/Dezincification of brass Everloc fittings.
http://www.scaview.org/REHAU.html











4.) Nibco / CPI DURAPEX, The next to go
Tubing Failure. Splitting Lengthwise.
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21075

At this time 3 failure victims from N.C. are posting in this thread on Terry Love's Forum. The tubing in question was made by CPI before the sale to NIBCO. NIBCO's insurer is denying any claims. In this post the other day the words Class Action Lawsuit was mentioned. http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showpost.php?p=186295&postcount=57

Truth of the matter is they seem to be stacking up kinda like...


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## user823

Sorry but I disagree, I see nothing stacking up. There was a problem with certain brass fittings and dezincification, problem is solved. There was never a problem with the piping. You don't see it happening with plastic or copper fittings or the bronze fittings I use with the Viega Pureflow system. So there was a problem, live and learn. Problem solved. Like I said before I could spend an entire weekend writing volumes about plumbing material problems over the years that were resolved, including copper problems. I'm not impressed with one or two problems occuring when in reality there are literally hundreds of thousands of feet being installed monthly without problems. Also, Rehau piping is not being discontinued, they are being bought out and the fitting situation has been resolved. 
So why don't we discuss all the problems with bad water and copper then? I've seen acidic water eat through copper pipe in less than a year. Where's all the lawsuits?
So what if you installed a pex piping system using the copper fittings on acidic water. Would pex be at fault then too? Give me a break please.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

High marks for Redwood for posting that. :thumbsup:




You ask a good question ironranger; why haven't there been lawsuits on copper,...? 



You know why? Because the makers of copper have proven it's the fault of the water purveyor.


When we discuss this PEX, this stuff is blowing apart in different ways and different situations within 2-4-7-10 years.


Trust me on these next words,


I'm soon going to be the voice of the victims, whether anyone likes it or not. I'm doing it for many reasons, one of which is monetary. 


Remember, 

When you produce a product, it must provide a reliability *everywhere*, not just in your back yard.



IronRanger, 


Cincinnati Ohio, big high rises, skyscrapers, buildings nearing 100 years old with copper piping that looks like the day it was installed, non-fouling, operating consistently without any problems.

If the first 100 years are any indication to its value, I can imagine it's going to see another 25-50-75 years.


No plastic piping system has proven its reliability in United States for any decent length of time.


There's a reason I can go hunting across the internet finding problems with these plastic piping systems, and it's nothing sinister; it's guaranteed by the physical characteristics of the material itself.


Anyone can hate me for pointing this out, I'm fine with it. I however see many vantage points being the fulcrum or springboard to be the statistical database for all that's going on with these systems that are constantly searched for by *victims.*


*We all know how we act when we get bad products, imagine having a house full of it when you trusted your plumber that cared more about the then, than the now. *


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## ToUtahNow

Who says there has not been copper lawsuits?

Mark


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

ToUtahNow said:


> Who says there has not been copper lawsuits?
> 
> Mark


 
There has been "some" but not in the magnitude or common place as plastic piping systems have seen. 



http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=copper+pipe+lawsuits&aq=f&oq=



I found this on page 4 of the above, but as you will see, you have to search in the midst of all the plastic ones to find it. :blink:


http://www.policyholdersofamerica.org/newsletter/feb_2005/pinholes_leaks_in_copper_pipes.pdf


I'm talking from the view of product reliability excluding workmanship error. The pictures above are correctly installed piping systems that failed due to improper testing of a product in a variety of field situations.


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## ToUtahNow

PEX got it's foot in the door because of all of the copper lawsuits. The main difference between the two is no one has ever gone after the copper manufacturers. Consider with PEX, if the fittings are made to ASTM Standards but are not compatible with the environment they are installed in, is it the manufacturer's fault, ASTM's fault or the installer's fault? In the areas where copper is not compatible with the environment they blame the installer.

Mark


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

ToUtahNow said:


> PEX got it's foot in the door because of all of the copper lawsuits. The main difference between the two is no one has *ever gone after the copper manufacturers*. Consider with PEX, if the fittings are made to ASTM Standards but are not compatible with the environment they are installed in, is it the manufacturer's fault, ASTM's fault or the installer's fault? In the areas where copper is not compatible with the environment they blame the installer.
> 
> Mark


 

So this is why it's hard to find information against them.


The ASTM, American Society for Testing and Materials, 


Why are they allowing such a broad code to allow copper to be installed in all 50 states if it is well known that water quality or acidic soils are detrimental to the product? The comfy relationship with the copper industry and what they provide?


And to examine this issue with copper failures, was the pipe fittings ever in deterioration when these issues present themselves? 

I ask this because copper fittings are usually type L in thickness, and rarely have I seen on the internet or locally/regionally where the copper fitting failed.


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## nhmaster3015

It seems that we are attempting to install a product or products that will withstand any and all water conditions, environmental conditions and last a minimum of a lifetime. Just this past weekend i replaced a leaking stop valve of a polybutylene system that has been installed since 1984. That's 25 years and guess what? There has never been a problem with the pipe in this house or the fittings. Yet in other cases the fittings failed within a few years. We have all seen pin holed copper and copper that has lasted for well over 50 years. Same with galvanized pipe. We still run across galvanized piping on a daily basis around here. Some bad and some working just fine. We all know it's the water conditions that dictate the longevity of the product installed. Perhaps we need to take the responsibility of testing the water conditions before recommending a product? You all know that I am not the biggest fan of Pex, but most of my objection has to do with the availability and ease of installation of the product that gives unlicensed folks the false impression that they can now plumb. Pex is yet another product that slowly errodes the professionalism of the trade.


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## Redwood

ironranger said:


> Sorry but I disagree, I see nothing stacking up. There was a problem with certain brass fittings and dezincification, problem is solved. There was never a problem with the piping. You don't see it happening with plastic or copper fittings or the bronze fittings I use with the Viega Pureflow system. So there was a problem, live and learn. Problem solved. Like I said before I could spend an entire weekend writing volumes about plumbing material problems over the years that were resolved, including copper problems. I'm not impressed with one or two problems occuring when in reality there are literally hundreds of thousands of feet being installed monthly without problems. Also, Rehau piping is not being discontinued, they are being bought out and the fitting situation has been resolved.
> So why don't we discuss all the problems with bad water and copper then? I've seen acidic water eat through copper pipe in less than a year. Where's all the lawsuits?
> So what if you installed a pex piping system using the copper fittings on acidic water. Would pex be at fault then too? Give me a break please.


Maybe Viega PEX should be the next cure for Clark County, Neada's pipe problems. The way I see it that water will eat it's way through glass pipe.

NH Master Raises an interesting point on whether we should be testing the water before recommending a piping system. What happens is the caracterisiics of the water change afterwards. Well water often changes drastically in years of drought and non-drought. Maybe God will be named in a class action lawsuit then....:laughing:


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## Redwood

I guess that wiped out this thread huh Roast Duck...:laughing:


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