# Pro-Press Poll Can you do this without one



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Can you make this repair without using Pro-Press in an hour or less?

The repair is 15' off the ground in a parking garage.
The pipe is 2-1/2" copper


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Is it the highest point in the system? Does it have a draindown setup?


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Need a little bit more info- is the valve feeding the line not shutting off all the way? 
Are there multiple floors above that this line feeds? 
Is the copper in poor condition?

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Time stamped pics neeeded! LOL


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

I'm gonna say prolly not...heck, I can't even get set up in less than an hour...LOL

I Pro-Pressed a 4" 90* in the basement on a 6 story bldg, it actually took more prep time than the actual repair...of course. I just don't think it would be that quick.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Supposedly it feeds an entire city block but I think that is BS

There is a shut off valve and it does work.

I don't think there is a drain down. Cut the pipe and let her rip. It's in a parking garage so flooding is not an issue.

The copper is fairly new and in good condition, the elbow has had a leak since the initial install.

There is, from the photo, piping above the leak.

It can be reached using an extension ladder and the floor below is all clear and you can park your van right beside it.

Set up would be standing the ladder up and leaning it against that overhang.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

I am missing the photo?


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

I would say if it is the highest point and you can drain down yes. Given a lift of course.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

deerslayer said:


> I am missing the photo?



Woooops......it's there now sorry


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

I could fix it in less than an hour. easy peasy


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

If you don't mind getting wet, no problem. Get 2 sweat 90's and 2 Propress repair couplings. Prefab the section to be removed in about 15 minutes, hike up the ladder and chop out the section, press the new one in, go home for dry clothes.



EDIT *** read the question wrong. I'm slower than usual this morning. 


Paul


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

No Pro-Press allowed


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> No Pro-Press allowed


My mistake, I read the question wrong. It did confuse me a little, wondering why you'd be asking if you could do it _with_ a ProPress. 


No, I don't think I could do that in an hour or less with sweat fittings unless I was going to throw a union in there. I'm just assuming the water would be too much.




Paul


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

So throw a union in there, nobody said no unions


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> No Pro-Press allowed


 
i also didnt read the OP very well.

4 hour job with 2 men


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

It would take me about 5 hours by myself with just my helper. I would have to run back to the shop to get a 12 foot step and my bigger torch. plus get parts. i don't stock 2 1/2 inch cu


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

No running, you have already been there and seen the job, had a couple weeks to plan


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

GREENPLUM said:


> i also didnt read the OP very well.
> 
> 4 hour job with 2 men


What's the 2nd man for? All you have to do is set up the ladder, cut the pipe and swett in a union, a coupling and a new elbow.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Drill a hole in the bottom 90 where the leak is with a step drill bit in the 90 turn, not affecting the pipe part of the equation. A quick setup to drain that while you're setting up a new tip in your torch, I believe a W-6. 


Heat the socket of the top 90 on the vertical, push up. Pipe will come out of the 90 and take a rag, wipe out excess solder in the 90's socket.

If the bottom 90 is fully drained (should be) then heat the socket on the horizontal, pulling off the 90 that has a drill hole in it and the piece that pulled out of the top 90.

Clean the excess solder off the horizontal pipe you just pulled the 90 off of, use a new 90 and cut a new piece of copper pipe. 

You can get away with reusing that short vertical piece and not even heat the the pipe out of the top 90, IF you've got enough flexibility loosening up the clevis hangers. Doubt it though.

Drilling a hole in the 90 makes the mess less you have a barbed fitting with tubing to direct to the floor, instead of sawzalling that pipe in half between the two 90's or using a cutter.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

I think you can do the repair in about 30 min if you prep everything before hand. At 15' I'd work off a scaffold and not a ladder. I think you should take rick up on his offer. I've always thought it would be interesting to meet you and talk plumbing. Why can't you freeze the pipe and solder like regular?


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> No running, you have already been there and seen the job, had a couple weeks to plan



Ok I was checking my supply houses on line and it would take about a couple of weeks to get the 2 1/2 cu in. Well with all that being said.

I will say about 2 hours. I don't work that fast:no:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

looks like an all day affair to me and thats the way I would price it...

Even though the actual repair will not take that long...

Lets see... my time to drive to the site... pull my ladder out of the truck... start draining the system.... now its coffee time... sit down and wait with my coffee and smoke... 

Now shoot the chit for a bit with who is ever there that owns the building...

Now walk slowly over to check if the water is drained... ooops still a drip... enough time for another coffee and a smoke...

by 1 or 2 oclock I would have it apart... should have the water back on by 4:30.... could go it to over time...


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

gear junkie said:


> I think you can do the repair in about 30 min if you prep everything before hand. At 15' I'd work off a scaffold and not a ladder. I think you should take rick up on his offer. I've always thought it would be interesting to meet you and talk plumbing. Why can't you freeze the pipe and solder like regular?


_
If I didn't have school the next two weeks and Skills the week after that I'd go in a heartbeat. I think freezing would work also but the way I see it, two Jet-Swetts, a union, coupling and elbow and it's done. BTW I often use a standard inflatable test ball when I need something flexible on a repair like that. If you listen to some guys you would have to wonder how any plumbing ever got done at all 20 years ago :laughing:
_


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> looks like an all day affair to me and thats the way I would price it...
> 
> Even though the actual repair will not take that long...
> 
> ...



Couldn't you have maintenance drain it down for you?:laughing:


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> What's the 2nd man for? All you have to do is set up the ladder, cut the pipe and swett in a union, a coupling and a new elbow.


 
somebody's got to hold down the work truck. its dangerous out there :laughing:


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

I keep 2 1/2" on the truck as well as a 90 or two so yes I could've repaired it in less than an hour provided it didn't take more than a half hour to drain it down. Travel time would be extra of course. BTW that is soldering it not a propress.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

All conditions being perfect, yes it could be done in 1 hour or less...However we all know the conditions are NEVER perfect! LOL


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## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Supposedly it feeds an entire city block but I think that is BS
> 
> There is a shut off valve and it does work.
> 
> ...


rent a freeze machine. Much neater and you wont have to worry about purging, nasty brown water or water legs draining while you work from people flushing or whatever.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Working off the top of a box truck with a jet swet, B-tank and a 7/16" screaming Turbo Torch, yes it can be done.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

GREENPLUM said:


> somebody's got to hold down the work truck. its dangerous out there :laughing:


and go for coffee


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Yes It probably could be done in an hour but I wouldnt promise!


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

If the valve works, then no problem sweating. You just need a jet swet and another valve to create a dry zone between, then rebuild.

My question would be "Why not just propress?"

PP would be faster, easier, more certain and only require one pp 90. Sweat repair would be a ball valve, two 90's, pipe, and a no stop coupling.

Do it in pp, then just remember to charge as if you took the extra time and mat'l's to do a sweat repair 


Edit: Sorry, just saw no pp allowed. I'd allow 4 hours minimum, but could easily get lucky and be done in 2.


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

Since your in a parking garage shut off the line and cut in half and let it drain , the repair itself with a union,coupling and a 90 shouldn't take that long. You could solder that with mapp gas with the right tip. As for the parts we have up to 3" fittings and pipe in the shop . With all that being said I also have up to 4" propress fittings in the shop which would be a hell of a lot quicker with less fittings being needed you could just replace the 90 with the longer 2 1/2" propress 90.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Quit asking questions..... :laughing:

The whole point of this is that another plumber, on another forum is of the belief that Pro-Press is the only way this can possibly be done in less than 5 1/2 hours, which I say is pure BS


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

johnlewismcleod said:


> If the vale works, then no problem sweating. You just need a jet swet and another valve to create a dry zone between, then rebuild.
> 
> My question would be "Why not just propress?"
> 
> ...


 
A sweat repair would require one 90? Drill hole in bend of 90 and when empty sawzall it into. If it is free of waterr I will open something to let pressure out and solder it.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

deerslayer said:


> A sweat repair would require one 90? Drill hole in bend of 90 and when empty sawzall it into. If it is free of waterr I will open something to let pressure out and solder it.


I'd never spend the time and effort to sweat off a fitting unless it was necessary...particularly if you don't know how long it will take to drain or if it will ever stop dripping 

I'd cut the line on the opposite side of the bad 90 from the shut off, stick a jetswet in and solder a valve on. Then you've got a dry zone to rebuild in:

Two 90's, one repair coupling, and enough pipe to span the drop...done and done.

P.S.: it would probably be a good idea to have an extra valve on hand just in case the existing shut off only "mostly" works. Sometimes even ball valves let a steady drip go by when off (particularly if the original installer used too much heat).


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> ...The whole point of this is that another plumber, on another forum is of the belief that Pro-Press is the only way this can possibly be done in less than 5 1/2 hours, which I say is pure BS


This is not surprising at all NH. For some of the guys that grew up with PEX, ProPress, and microwave ovens it would take more than the first hour just to get motivated to do the work, much less actually tackle it with confidence. For the PEX generation, that is not only an all day event, but maybe a little scary too.

(No disrespect intended to the younger plumbers among us. Just giving my opinion.)


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> This is not surprising at all NH. For some of the guys that grew up with PEX, ProPress, and microwave ovens it would take more than the first hour just to get motivated to do the work, much less actually tackle it with confidence. For the PEX generation, that is not only an all day event, but maybe a little scary too.
> 
> (No disrespect intended to the younger plumbers among us. Just giving my opinion.)


I have to agree with you , a lot the younger plumbers that are in their 20's wouldn't know how to tackle that without propress.Their thinking is to get it done and get on to the next call, where I'm thinking slow down do it right make more $$$$$ . If its not an emergency schedule that next call for the next day . Keep the work flow going for a steady week.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Quit asking questions..... :laughing:
> 
> The whole point of this is that another plumber, on another forum is of the belief that Pro-Press is the only way this can possibly be done in less than 5 1/2 hours, which I say is pure BS


 
I'm one of the ProPress supporters but whoever said it can't be done in less than 5 1/2 hours is a bit out of it. I could do it with sweat fittings, have it leak, take it all apart again and then redo it in that time. 





Paul


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

If the valve works I can get it done with in an hour to two hours depending on the drain down. A little water never hurt me since I do use a B tank and one hot torch. If water was an issue put in an union.

But I can do that repair in 15 minutes to 45 minutes with a ProPress and one 90º, might take a hour if I have to add two couplings and a piece of pipe.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> This is not surprising at all NH. For some of the guys that grew up with PEX, ProPress, and microwave ovens it would take more than the first hour just to get motivated to do the work, much less actually tackle it with confidence. For the PEX generation, that is not only an all day event, but maybe a little scary too.
> 
> (No disrespect intended to the younger plumbers among us. Just giving my opinion.)


I've done much more difficult repairs without propress. Entire hospital shutdowns without propress back before it was real big here. I've only been in this trade 10 years but when I started propress didn't really exist here. The co I was working for is one of the biggest in the state and we didn't jump on propress until I was a third year.

So there you have it, a plumber in his 20's who isn't afraid of sweating pipe. With that being said... I wouldn't budget ANY shut down in under an hour. Something like that would be an at least 4 hour bid, or t&m.

I would shut it down, then open fixtures it's feeding until the water stops coming out of em. Only then would I pierce the pipe. I've seen too many valves that "should" hold still let way too much water through. 

Try and rush something like that and it might work out 100 times but all it takes is one f up. This is the part of the trade I love, the part where making a mistake isn't a possibility. If they don't accept my large hour bid, so be it hopefully the guy they contract won't be caught with his pants down.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Once the system is drained down enough and it's verified that the valve holds, soldering or propress would take about the same length of time. I approach shutdowns with a multi-leveled plan to ensure my arse is kept out of a sling. Verifying the valve is shut off well by draining down by fixtures is important. If you open enough fixtures, and the water stops flowing in them you can proceed with making a hole in the pipe. This also helps find out if you have a cross connection somewhere, which is often the case in a bigger building.

I then do as Dunbar does, drilling a hole instead of cutting with a sawzall. The only thing I add is depending on the size of pipe, I cut a fernco in half and put that and the bands around the pipe close to the hole. If something goes wrong, you can tighten the bands to stop water spraying out of the hole pretty quick. Then I wait until the flow stops and cut with the sawzall. 

If you do all that stuff it doesn't matter if you sweat or press. I still like having a propress around even if I plan on sweating the pipes together. You can easily do it sweat, and truth be told I prefer soldering. Press is just another layer of protection in case SHTF.


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

Easy fix without propress, in 15 minutes..

B-valve and a jetswet on the upper horizontal - smooth sailing from there.

Put a no-hub gasket around a 2" JS to cover the extra 1/2" diameter.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

affordabledrain said:


> Couldn't you have maintenance drain it down for you?:laughing:


Why would I want them to drain it... that would leave me no time to have several coffees and smokes...

What you trying to do .. be a kill joy..


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

....Checking the catalogs for 2 1/2" Sharkbites :laughing:
We'll get this sucker done in no time at all... :laughing:


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> Once the system is drained down enough and it's verified that the valve holds, soldering or propress would take about the same length of time. I approach shutdowns with a multi-leveled plan to ensure my arse is kept out of a sling. Verifying the valve is shut off well by draining down by fixtures is important. If you open enough fixtures, and the water stops flowing in them you can proceed with making a hole in the pipe. This also helps find out if you have a cross connection somewhere, which is often the case in a bigger building.
> 
> I then do as Dunbar does, drilling a hole instead of cutting with a sawzall. The only thing I add is depending on the size of pipe, I cut a fernco in half and put that and the bands around the pipe close to the hole. If something goes wrong, you can tighten the bands to stop water spraying out of the hole pretty quick. Then I wait until the flow stops and cut with the sawzall.
> 
> If you do all that stuff it doesn't matter if you sweat or press. I still like having a propress around even if I plan on sweating the pipes together. You can easily do it sweat, and truth be told I prefer soldering. Press is just another layer of protection in case SHTF.


 
Just this week, I had a littlle 1/2" copper line, which was in between 2 joists, about 4" apart, above a drywalled ceiling, in a plush basement. Had to lay down tarps, set up vac, cut hole, ect.., so I could install a valve & a new outside hose bib. This job took me 3hrs.

I turned off the water meter, drained down all the faucets in basement, & said, before I cut it, I better open up the hose bib, I am replacing, to double check water is off. ( Remember, whole ceiling is drywalled, & can't see where any pipes go). So I go outside & turn on the hose bib,........ I got full pressure. I go to the other hose bibs, they all have full pressure, & I got the meter off. I also had the recirc pump off on hot water. I go looking around, in furnace room, & bunch of other rooms, & see nothing. Then I look under this big stairway, which was made into a closet, & wala. A well pump tank, that feeds all the outside bibs. If I was working 90 miles an hr, like so many on here claim, I would of been using some scuba gear myself. Cuz I would of not even known where the heck to shut off water, if I had cut that pipe, cuz I was in a rush.

Ok, I will be the 1st one to brag on here. I'm slow. Big deal. Job took me 3hrs, I charged for 3hrs, & got paid for 3hrs. Access panel on ceiling when I left, & customer has 100% finished product, & dry basement.

Now what is this propress thing you guys were talkin about?:laughing:


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Redwood said:


> ....Checking the catalogs for 2 1/2" Sharkbites :laughing:
> We'll get this sucker done in no time at all... :laughing:


Shark bite, propress, same thing as far as I am concerned and they are both set for failure. In my mind there is very little difference other than the price.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Gettinit said:


> Shark bite, propress, same thing as far as I am concerned and they are both set for failure. In my mind there is very little difference other than the price.


I think you took the quoted post waaaaaaaaay too seriously....:laughing:


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> looks like an all day affair to me and thats the way I would price it...
> 
> Even though the actual repair will not take that long...
> 
> ...


 I thought you were American, looks like I was right


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Redwood said:


> I think you took the quoted post waaaaaaaaay too seriously....:laughing:


Nope.....I saw the little bald heads....:thumbup::thumbup:


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Gettinit said:


> Shark bite, propress, same thing as far as I am concerned and they are both set for failure. In my mind there is very little difference other than the price.


One could say that all plumbing is set for failure couldn't they?


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Don The Plumber said:


> Just this week, I had a littlle 1/2" copper line, which was in between 2 joists, about 4" apart, above a drywalled ceiling, in a plush basement. Had to lay down tarps, set up vac, cut hole, ect.., so I could install a valve & a new outside hose bib. This job took me 3hrs.
> 
> I turned off the water meter, drained down all the faucets in basement, & said, before I cut it, I better open up the hose bib, I am replacing, to double check water is off. ( Remember, whole ceiling is drywalled, & can't see where any pipes go). So I go outside & turn on the hose bib,........ I got full pressure. I go to the other hose bibs, they all have full pressure, & I got the meter off. I also had the recirc pump off on hot water. I go looking around, in furnace room, & bunch of other rooms, & see nothing. Then I look under this big stairway, which was made into a closet, & wala. A well pump tank, that feeds all the outside bibs. If I was working 90 miles an hr, like so many on here claim, I would of been using some scuba gear myself. Cuz I would of not even known where the heck to shut off water, if I had cut that pipe, cuz I was in a rush.
> 
> ...


Yup , and that was just a residential basement. A building that uses 2 1/2" water is a decent size. It's suprising how much money one little mistake can cost you. When you working around multi million dollar equipment, one mistake puts 99% of guys out of business. I like working for myself, so I don't want to go out of business. I've seen stuff like this happen often enough to other guys, and how they feel after doing it to know I don't want to. I normally work as quick as possible, shutdowns being the only time I realllly slowww down.


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

GREENPLUM said:


> One could say that all plumbing is set for failure couldn't they?


Sounds like me, to my mom, "the bed's only gonna get messy again anyway"


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

GREENPLUM said:


> One could say that all plumbing is set for failure couldn't they?


....Good point....but I would like them to be the o-rings and washers in my faucets not the o-rings on my water main or a main for the city block. I know that a copper line could have a leak down the road even if it installed properly. I also know that those o-rings will dry rot. 50 year warranty my a$$. These fittings are not out of necessity like Orangeburg pipe was during the war. They are a lazy way out of doing a professional job. It may take planning or an act of Congress to get some places shut down, but it happens.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

This is a no brainer -- I've done this a 1/2 dozen times in the vaults under Seattle's Sanitary Market over the past 20+ years.

Shut it down/drain it down, use a Jet-Swet to isolate and burn two ball valves -- One of the ball valves should have a stop-n-waste/drain down so the steam has a means to escape while you're sweating it.

Piece of cake. I could do this in about 2 hours from rollout to rollup.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

I am waiting for someone to equate the o-rings to a Megalug.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Gettinit said:


> I am waiting for someone to equate the o-rings to a Megalug.


Or the meter spud washer, I know right


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## skitian (Apr 5, 2011)

Yall think too much, put on your rain suit, some radiator hose and a few hose clamps. Why would you even shut the water off since it's a parking garage. I'd be outta there before my coffee had time to cool down.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

A perfect application for a Schwinn Coupling....


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Widdershins said:


> This is a no brainer -- I've done this a 1/2 dozen times in the vaults under Seattle's Sanitary Market over the past 20+ years.
> 
> Shut it down/drain it down, use a Jet-Swet to isolate and burn two ball valves -- One of the ball valves should have a stop-n-waste/drain down so the steam has a means to escape while you're sweating it.
> 
> Piece of cake. I could do this in about 2 hours from rollout to rollup.


I think I would lose my license if I was caught putting a stop and waste in an area that could lead to contamination by way of backflow. RPZ's are not allowed in a vault even with a drain to daylight.


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Why would I want them to drain it... that would leave me no time to have several coffees and smokes...
> 
> What you trying to do .. be a kill joy..


ok got it.

Around here they couldn't even do it right anyway


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

redwood said:


> a perfect application for a schwinn coupling....


 
Shazam!!!


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

I'd bring a scissor lift with me, load on a large liquid nitrogen cylinder, freeze either side of the leak, and put it back together, should take about 45 minutes.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Gettinit said:


> I think I would lose my license if I was caught putting a stop and waste in an area that could lead to contamination by way of backflow. RPZ's are not allowed in a vault even with a drain to daylight.


15 feet off of the ground in a parking garage with floor drains.

I feel pretty good about my solution.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Widdershins said:


> 15 feet off of the ground in a parking garage with floor drains.
> 
> I feel pretty good about my solution.


Referring to you using them in vaults. Maybe I misinterpreted it. Sorry.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Gettinit said:


> Referring to you using them in vaults. Maybe I misinterpreted it. Sorry.


No worries.

The vaults I speak of are just below street level and only accessible from basement access points that are easily 10 to 15 feet below the vaults.

Present day Downtown Seattle was built on top of the remains of Olde Downtown Seattle.

There are some areas that are just barely above the level of Puget Sound.

Some of the rental properties I own in Georgetown, a good 7 or 8 miles from the Sound, are built on lots that were tide flats 100 years ago or so.


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## [email protected] (Apr 17, 2012)

Widdershins said:


> This is a no brainer -- I've done this a 1/2 dozen times in the vaults under Seattle's Sanitary Market over the past 20+ years.
> 
> Shut it down/drain it down, use a Jet-Swet to isolate and burn two ball valves -- One of the ball valves should have a stop-n-waste/drain down so the steam has a means to escape while you're sweating it.
> 
> Piece of cake. I could do this in about 2 hours from rollout to rollup.


 a fellow washintonian ehh the competition lmao


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Great posts Gentlemen and a pretty good confirmation of the abilities of the majority of plumbers that post on this forum. Thing is I never said that Pro-Press was necessarily a good nor bad way to tackle this repair, only that Pro-Press was not needed. The OP said that he got the job because no other plumbing companies in the area would even consider doing the job. I say nonsense


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Great posts Gentlemen and a pretty good confirmation of the abilities of the majority of plumbers that post on this forum. Thing is I never said that Pro-Press was necessarily a good nor bad way to tackle this repair, only that Pro-Press was not needed. The OP said that he got the job because no other plumbing companies in the area would even consider doing the job. I say nonsense



he must be a dreamer:laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

affordabledrain said:


> he must be a dreamer:laughing:


Maybe .... He meant

No other company would do it as the job is to small and their price is to high....

This guy more than likely was the cheap guy on the block.... And it's the first time he has ever made a repair of this nature...

His screen name must be new guy on the block

Sent from my miniature laptop


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Maybe .... He meant
> 
> No other company would do it as the job is to small and their price is to high....
> 
> ...



was think that also


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

At the hospital we will fix leaks in copper by buying 4 cast bronze flanges, make a spool piece, cut out what's needed, use a jet-sweat and burn on the other 2 flanges and and bolt it up. There usually aren't any iso valves, and the hospital has so many functions that can't be without water for the time it would take to drain down completely.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

422 plumber said:


> At the hospital we will fix leaks in copper by buying 4 cast bronze flanges, make a spool piece, cut out what's needed, use a jet-sweat and burn on the other 2 flanges and and bolt it up. There usually aren't any iso valves, and the hospital has so many functions that can't be without water for the time it would take to drain down completely.


They make adjustable flanges for the plumbers that don't own a level. I believe they are made of copper. That should speed things along even more.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Great posts Gentlemen and a pretty good confirmation of the abilities of the majority of plumbers that post on this forum. Thing is I never said that Pro-Press was necessarily a good nor bad way to tackle this repair, only that Pro-Press was not needed. The OP said that he got the job because no other plumbing companies in the area would even consider doing the job. I say nonsense


Was it not needed or not allowed?

I've done a few similar jobs where ProPress was explicitly not allowed.

If this had been my job with no constraints, considering the exigent circumstances, I would have used ProPress w/out batting an eye.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

No widdie, it's allowed, that was not the whole point. The OP pretty much says that there is no way that repair can be done in 5 1/2 hours without using pro-press. I actually agree that Pro-Press is probably the fastest and easiest way to do the job but that was not the question


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

nhmaster3015 said:


> No widdie, it's allowed, that was not the whole point. The OP pretty much says that there is no way that repair can be done in 5 1/2 hours without using pro-press. I actually agree that Pro-Press is probably the fastest and easiest way to do the job but that was not the question


 Worst case senario maybe more!


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

if you look at the job. It look like a simple repair. That has so many variables to it. 

jobs like this are the ones. that people call us out to look at. Than say it should only take an hour:furious:

we all know that in this line of work crap happens and sometimes things take longer than expected


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## plumber666 (Sep 19, 2010)

I'd solder it. If this is a main serving a city block (?) what's the pressure on it? Whats the max pressure allowed on Pro Press again?


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

plumber666 said:


> I'd solder it. If this is a main serving a city block (?) what's the pressure on it? Whats the max pressure allowed on Pro Press again?


We all know propress can't stand up to what a good solder joint can , but when does a solder joint have to stand up to this ?http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pressure-ratings-solder-joints-d_1162.html


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Would no one try and hit this fitting again, it sounds like a small drip at original solder. Why not drill hole at bottom of ell to complete drain down apply heat, flux and solder then I would braze the hole I drilled. If that doesn't do it then I would repipe and solder. 


Isn't that what you would do if you had a small leak on initial test??? 

Time on a job like this is mostly drain down but I believe the time allowed would be enough that even if my first shot didn't work I would have enough time to repipe with solder


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> Would no one try and hit this fitting again, it sounds like a small drip at original solder. Why not drill hole at bottom of ell to complete drain down apply heat, flux and solder then I would braze the hole I drilled. If that doesn't do it then I would repipe and solder.
> 
> 
> Isn't that what you would do if you had a small leak on initial test???
> ...


It's a code violation here to alter a fitting.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

This is confusing. Is it under 1 hour or 5-1/2? Since it's not practicable to freeze an active large diameter line with off the shelf equipment and pro press is not allowed, you gotta do a shut down. Preparatory job site visit Back and forth phone calls, or emails to arrange a shut down and window Gathering of material Set up Drain down Actual repair Restart and walk through to assure all downstream fixtures are working properly (stuck flush valves for no known reason, solder jammed faucets, etc.) Even if all goes well, 5-1/2 hours is conservative If I were asked to bid the repair, I'd say 8 hours (and not be sure that's enough until the solder cools) Can it be done faster? Sure. If someone calls you up and says come over to fix my 2-1/2" copper line right now and you're not busy and they say they will clean up the mess, then an hour might be doable. Under any other circumstances, why take the risk?


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Killertoiletspider said:


> It's a code violation here to alter a fitting.


Ofcourse as it is here but we know the braze will outlast the hole system and it doesn't require an inspection. I feel confident in a jam with no fittings I can repair it. 

That being said I have never nor will I ever alter a fitting, I was just fishing for HACKS. Guess everyone here's is good! 

I forgot you all won't even cut down a C.I. Ell, not that I would either! 

PS. if ever I mention breaking a code its always a hypothetical situation and in no way should be considered in part or in full as an admission of guilt on my part personally or as a representative of my company. 
BROOKLYN\PLUMB is not responsible for existing violations which may or may not exist, now or in the future.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

It can be "fixed" in no time.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Ahhhh a masterful job of covering your backside if ever did read one my boy. :thumbsup:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

*I think that's what I like about you. . .*



BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> Ofcourse as it is here but we know the braze will outlast the hole system and it doesn't require an inspection. I feel confident in a jam with no fittings I can repair it.
> 
> That being said I have never nor will I ever alter a fitting, I was just fishing for HACKS. Guess everyone here's is good!
> 
> ...


You lawyered up before you even clicked the 'submit reply' button.:laughing:


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> You lawyered up before you even clicked the 'submit reply' button.:laughing:


I can't confirm or deny that my team of lawyers may or may not be advising me! 

PS. Wherever applicable said applicant reserves the right to plead the 5th or any other number which may pertain to the defense of my presumed innocence henceforth


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

*Hands down.*



BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> I can't confirm or deny that my team of lawyers may or may not be advising me!
> 
> PS. Wherever applicable said applicant reserves the right to plead the 5th or any other number which may pertain to the defense of my presumed innocence henceforth


You're definitely my favorite InterWebz Joo. :laughing:


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> Ofcourse as it is here but we know the braze will outlast the hole system and it doesn't require an inspection. I feel confident in a jam with no fittings I can repair it.


For something this easy to fix it's not worth it.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> You're definitely my favorite InterWebz Joo. :laughing:


Thanks 
I'm just glad I didn't waste all of my parents money that they spent sending me to yeshiva. Lol


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Killertoiletspider said:


> For something this easy to fix it's not worth it.


You are right 
And my sarcastic reply was all in jest . Besides why not do it right and charge accordingly!


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Is it still not fixed? There is so many man hours in this job already I hope we arent all billing!:laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

pilot light said:


> Is it still not fixed? There is so many man hours in this job already I hope we arent all billing!:laughing:


Its a union job.... we didn't even start yet


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> Its a union job.... we didn't even start yet


 Oh well then I will submit a bid as an independent mechanical contractor! Lol!:laughing:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

OldSchool said:


> Its a union job.... we didn't even start yet


It's still in the design stage.

After that comes contract negotiations.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Widdershins said:


> It's still in the design stage.
> 
> After that comes contract negotiations.


 I have designed the 2 and a half inch c+c 90 for the application.Does 
this meet the design stage qualifications? Its a Nibco c+c fitting. Have
the approval of the manufacturers design.:laughing:


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## Ginawings (Aug 3, 2011)

I bet my car agsinst his 2500 that I. Can do that repair in under a hour.

Now I'm putting in the circumstances that time starts when i cut the pipe until water is back on. Because i know for a fact it can't all be done in under a hour without pressing it. But i want to highlight that the repair can be made well within the tine constrains with proper planning.

I wish plumbers around here were so lazy that i could buy a press and get all the jobs like that!


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Ginawings said:


> I bet my car agsinst his 2500 that I. Can do that repair in under a hour.
> 
> Now I'm putting in the circumstances that time starts when i cut the pipe until water is back on. Because i know for a fact it can't all be done in under a hour without pressing it. But i want to highlight that the repair can be made well within the tine constrains with proper planning.
> 
> I wish plumbers around here were so lazy that i could buy a press and get all the jobs like that!


What if its Full of ****! :laughing:


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Ginawings said:


> I bet my car agsinst his 2500 that I. Can do that repair in under a hour.
> 
> Now I'm putting in the circumstances that time starts when i cut the pipe until water is back on. Because i know for a fact it can't all be done in under a hour without pressing it. But i want to highlight that the repair can be made well within the tine constrains with proper planning.
> 
> I wish plumbers around here were so lazy that i could buy a press and get all the jobs like that!


Welding a few 2-1/2" fittings overhead in less than an hour?...not an empty boast. 

What time frame would you feel comfortable with having for prep before cutting in?


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

Looks like I need to buy a pro press. or the cheaper version.


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## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

pilot light said:


> I have designed the 2 and a half inch c+c 90 for the application.Does
> this meet the design stage qualifications? Its a Nibco c+c fitting. Have
> the approval of the manufacturers design.:laughing:


Yeah thats funny, It's even funnier that non union workers have to eat peanut butter and jelly everyday because they can't afford a decent lunch. They have to work until they die because they have no pension. And I'm non union but anyone putting them down is brainwashed.

Non union plumbers are severely under paid. It's not funny at all. prevailing wage is almost 3x starting non union pay.* 3x!!! *How is that right? And we let them get away with it. It's disgraceful


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

fightnews said:


> Yeah thats funny, It's even funnier that non union workers have to eat peanut butter and jelly everyday because they can't afford a decent lunch. They have to work until they die because they have no pension. And I'm non union but anyone putting them down is brainwashed.
> 
> Non union plumbers are severely under paid. It's not funny at all. prevailing wage is almost 3x starting non union pay. 3x!!! How is that right? And we let them get away with it. It's disgraceful


I guess you don't side with owner then? It would take a 100% Unionized workforce to make it work. Unemployment would be much higher as less people could afford the rates that would have to be charged to support the raise in wages. 

Not saying I'm against unions by any means, just that it's not so cut and dry. 


How much should a let's say journeyman plumber in a residential service company get paid? Also, how much should a company charge to support that wage?


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

My partner and I just worked today on a Saturday in a 600,000 sq. ft. warehouse. We had to shut off the water at the RPZ, open up faucets at both ends, and run approx 60' of 2" copper tube. 7 seven clevis hangers off beam clamps, and 3 pieces of unistrut, perpendicular off a column, using strut clamps. Demo approx. 18' of 2", throw the tube in the hangers and burn 4 couplings, 1 valve, 5 90's and 1 st. 45. Started at 7, took a coffee and lunch, and had the water back on 2:45. We worked off 10' and 12' step ladders, and used a little stationary, one man scissors lift. One man soldered, the other held a cardboard box to catch the solder drips and flux because we worked over the only part of the floor that was finished. I started sweeping, and demobing, while my partner then had to go to all the bathrooms and flush the toilets and urinals, and run all the faucets to bleed all the air out, I finished and flushed out all the office space bathrooms. The place was cleaner than when we started, and we walked out at 3:30. We busted our humps, and the facilities boss said he will use us in the future. I am happy because we are the first union subs in there, ever. We outbid non union shops to get it, and did better looking work than the original construction. I wouldn't have minded pro-press, not for the time factor, but the mess factor.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

fightnews said:


> ...Non union plumbers are severely under paid. ....


You are severely misinformed.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Indie said:


> How much should a let's say journeyman plumber in a residential service company get paid? Also, how much should a company charge to support that wage?


As someone that worked residential service as a union plumber for 7 years, I got paid the same as every other journeyman in the union, at the time I think it was $37.00 an hour plus benefits, which brought the total package to somewhere around $60.00 an hour. The shop was pretty much straight T&M, with a few exceptions, and charged $103.00 dollars an hour with a one hour minimum, and charged portal to portal.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

fightnews said:


> Yeah thats funny, It's even funnier that non union workers have to eat peanut butter and jelly everyday because they can't afford a decent lunch. They have to work until they die because they have no pension. And I'm non union but anyone putting them down is brainwashed.
> 
> Non union plumbers are severely under paid. It's not funny at all. prevailing wage is almost 3x starting non union pay.* 3x!!! *How is that right? And we let them get away with it. It's disgraceful


 I am non union and prefer tuna fish sandwiches for a decent lunch. I plan to work until the day I die because I enjoy it. When I no longer enjoy it I will stop! I have great medical dental and rrsp fund and also paid on par with my union brothers. I dont think I was putting anyone down though just chatting around the watercooler!


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## okiebill (Mar 14, 2010)

What is the question again? What site is this? Who are you people? Oh yea I remember now... Yup, less then an hour and I would use a grinder hooked up to a garden hose to cut the copper.. Ok maybe I'm still a little baffled One more post and I will break my yearly average!!!


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

fightnews said:


> Yeah thats funny, It's even funnier that non union workers have to eat peanut butter and jelly everyday because they can't afford a decent lunch. They have to work until they die because they have no pension. And I'm non union but anyone putting them down is brainwashed.
> 
> Non union plumbers are severely under paid. It's not funny at all. prevailing wage is almost 3x starting non union pay.* 3x!!! *How is that right? And we let them get away with it. It's disgraceful


 Bunch of winers Eh! Good god ! The trade is pipewrenches not backaminon!:laughing:


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

fightnews said:


> Yeah thats funny, It's even funnier that non union workers have to eat peanut butter and jelly everyday because they can't afford a decent lunch. They have to work until they die because they have no pension. And I'm non union but anyone putting them down is brainwashed.
> 
> Non union plumbers are severely under paid. It's not funny at all. prevailing wage is almost 3x starting non union pay.* 3x!!! *How is that right? And we let them get away with it. It's disgraceful



Wow your area must really suck!!!
*An Out of work plumber is an out of work plumber union or non union *


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