# PEX it's what's for Plumbing



## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Alright I want to get serious here. I agree before I write this that Copper is king and always will be. I even install it still on water heaters, repairs, even on some remodels. I install PEX on my new construction and large remodels and so does every plumber in my neck of the woods. Don't care to debate on copper vs PEX etc

What I do want to talk about is the alarming amount of leaks i see on PEX PIPING. Not talking about the fitting, I'm talking about the PIPE itself. Uponor is the brand of choice in my area. I personally don't like it, but install it for the most part because that is the only brand I can get at my suppliers. Here in NE Oklahoma it leaks all the time. Recirculating pumps kill it, solution is to run timer or Grunfos Alpha 2 smart pumps. Keep temperature low also. Life span seems to be around 10 years for Uponor here. We have a lot of chloramine in water not sure if that is killing the Uponor or not. PEX A is worst with Chlorine, I'm not a chemist so can't tell you the total difference between chloramine and chlorine other than chloramine has ammonia. Does the ammonia kill PEX? We have high water pressure 120psi + so some are not regulated to under 80 PSI, and a lot of huge homes with recirculating systems running 24/7. I'm not sure if the leaks are a PEX issue or Uponor issue. What do y'all see out there and what brands, what issues do you come across?


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Will said:


> .......... alarming amount of leaks i see on PEX PIPING. .............. Uponor is the brand of choice in my area........................ Life span seems to be around 10 years for Uponor here. We have a lot of chloramine in water not sure if that is killing the Uponor or not. PEX A is worst with Chlorine....................I'm not sure if the leaks are a PEX issue or *Uponor issue. *What do y'all see out there and what brands, what issues do you come across?


It's an UPONOR ISSUE.

There have already been multiple threads on here about Uponor/Wirsbo failures.

We use Viega pex and haven't had any material issues with the pipe. We did have some rare issues with the cast BRASS fittings abut ten years ago when the lead limit went down. We switched to the machined BRONZE fittings and haven't had an issue since. I have had to replace a few pieces of Uponor in the past couple years. Viega is king around here with all of the serious plumbers. The shops with tatted up vans and slick sales pitches use Uponor for the wham-bam-thank you mam jobs.









Uponor PEX Red Flag alert


Well, I’ve been an Uponor fan boy and own the tools and carry the training certificate. But yesterday, a colleague got a call for some water leaking issues at a nine year old house and pulled out a number of leaking Uponor tube sections And they are scary bad. We are helping the homeowner pursue...




www.plumbingzone.com













Another Pex Leak


Posted a few months back, I think April, where I found a leak at a bend support got this call today water coming into the kitchen. Leaking from the lavatory cold line running along the bottom steel track and manifesting at the kitchen. The building probably 6 years old now, and had another...




www.plumbingzone.com


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## Plumb N Plumber (Jan 3, 2022)

Will said:


> Alright I want to get serious here. I agree before I write this that Copper is king and always will be. I even install it still on water heaters, repairs, even on some remodels. I install PEX on my new construction and large remodels and so does every plumber in my neck of the woods. Don't care to debate on copper vs PEX etc
> 
> What I do want to talk about is the alarming amount of leaks i see on PEX PIPING. Not talking about the fitting, I'm talking about the PIPE itself. Uponor is the brand of choice in my area. I personally don't like it, but install it for the most part because that is the only brand I can get at my suppliers. Here in NE Oklahoma it leaks all the time. Recirculating pumps kill it, solution is to run timer or Grunfos Alpha 2 smart pumps. Keep temperature low also. Life span seems to be around 10 years for Uponor here. We have a lot of chloramine in water not sure if that is killing the Uponor or not. PEX A is worst with Chlorine, I'm not a chemist so can't tell you the total difference between chloramine and chlorine other than chloramine has ammonia. Does the ammonia kill PEX? We have high water pressure 120psi + so some are not regulated to under 80 PSI, and a lot of huge homes with recirculating systems running 24/7. I'm not sure if the leaks are a PEX issue or Uponor issue. What do y'all see out there and what brands, what issues do you come across?


I’ve seen issues on pex as early as 7 years old. It’s a shame, but hey better for selling a copper repipe… type L of course 😎


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

skoronesa said:


> It's an UPONOR ISSUE.
> 
> There have already been multiple threads on here about Uponor/Wirsbo failures.
> 
> ...



I"ve tired to get Viega brought in here, no supplier will do it......I used to use Sioux Chief PEX and Sioux Chief brass fittings for years with zero issues. Can't get it anymore. Used Zurn PEX piping last couple years with no issues (used Sioux Chief fittings or Uponor with it) with no issue, but can't get it with no more either. 

Do you run Viega with recirculating systems?


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## Plumb N Plumber (Jan 3, 2022)

Will said:


> I"ve tired to get Viega brought in here, no supplier will do it......I used to use Sioux Chief PEX and Sioux Chief brass fittings for years with zero issues. Can't get it anymore. Used Zurn PEX piping last couple years with no issues (used Sioux Chief fittings or Uponor with it) with no issue, but can't get it with no more either.
> 
> Do you run Viega with recirculating systems?


Pretty much every manufacture has been in some sort of class action lawsuit see the link below









PEX Tubing Lawsuits


If your PEX piping leaked, you're not alone. Dozens have reported problems, some of which caused serious property damage. Attorneys are now investigating. Learn more.




www.classaction.org


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Will said:


> ....... .........
> Do you run Viega with recirculating systems?


Yes, the black variant with the air barrier, It has a red stripe. We used to run Fostapex almost exclusively but it's discontinued.

For those of you who don't know, Fostapex is the same black air barrier version with an aluminum skin and pe skin added.


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## Sstratton6175 (Jan 10, 2021)

I was a huge fan of Fostapex. We used to run it for all our baseboard jobs. I loved how stiff it was and that it didn’t sag as much when it gets hot. With horizontal runs of regular pex we typically cut strips of plywood to put under it so we can attach at every 12”.


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## hewhodigsholes (Oct 28, 2020)

Anyone still able to find Rehau PEX-a? That stuff was legit.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Galvanized, polybutylene, cpvc, pex.............. Keep on installing and keep on replacing. We get paid twice.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

If you were wise you would install a baack flushing charchoal filter to filter out the chlorine and chlormines 
in the water,,,... if it were my home and I had pex pipe of any brand that is what I would do to
lengthen the life of the stuff...

all this was foretold back in 2001 or so when the copper industry was squealing about their loss 
of market share to pex.... now its all coming home to roost


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

We use Zurn pex exclusively and had no issues with heat or water quality,stop using that worstbo/uselessor crap pex and get Zurn or some other brand that others use on here,definitely don’t use any of that Lowes crap pex or any big box store pex


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

We use Zurn as well, love the 20' sticks.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

dhal22 said:


> We use Zurn as well, love the 20' sticks.


Yes I do to


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## jim285pro (Sep 3, 2020)

Been installing Wirsbo for 22 years. Never seen a failure. We get it rolls and sticks. I think it’s the water that causes the issues. Water with the wrong chemistry will destroy copper as well. We dealt with a major pinhole issue in Copper about 15 years ago. Chemists and engineers determined it was the water. They changed the chemistry and the prob went away overnight. Ever notice how some toilets look 25 years old in the tank when they are only 5? It’s not the toilet, it’s the water chemistry.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

jim285pro said:


> Been installing Wirsbo for 22 years. Never seen a failure. We get it rolls and sticks. I think it’s the water that causes the issues. Water with the wrong chemistry will destroy copper as well. We dealt with a major pinhole issue in Copper about 15 years ago. Chemists and engineers determined it was the water. They changed the chemistry and the prob went away overnight. Ever notice how some toilets look 25 years old in the tank when they are only 5? It’s not the toilet, it’s the water chemistry.


How did you go about changing the water chemistry?? Water softener and filter system I’m assuming


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## jim285pro (Sep 3, 2020)

The municipality that provided it changed their chemicals they treat it with. In the case of the copper, the aluminum sulfate and magnesium in the water was causing a chemical reaction with the copper. They changed the aluminum sulfate to something else if I remember correctly. A water filter system would be a good move. I’m really starting to lean towards offering them More to customers.


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## jim285pro (Sep 3, 2020)

Matter of fact I’m installing one to remove chlorine and fluoride for a orthodontist on Friday.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

jim285pro said:


> The municipality that provided it changed their chemicals they treat it with. In the case of the copper, the aluminum sulfate and magnesium in the water was causing a chemical reaction with the copper. They changed the aluminum sulfate to something else if I remember correctly. A water filter system would be a good move. I’m really starting to lean towards offering them More to customers.


I’m assuming that everyone was having pinhole issues and not just one or two places, right????


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## jim285pro (Sep 3, 2020)

It was a specific area that had a lot of high end homes. 7500 homes. More than 70% had issues. Some homes were 10-15 years old. Some were 5 years old. Once they started we would repair them. Then learned after a year or so that the copper had to go. Tried all kinds of stuff to solve it. Some homes had it worse than others. Interestingly it used to always start on the cold main horizontal runs before the WH. It’s prob why I hate cutting drywall more than anything. I have PTSD from all the access holes I had to cut. Made a lot of money though. We had at its peak a 3 month waiting list for repipes. 2 crews of 3 just for those. I spent months bidding the repipes.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Luckily we have mostly well water here. Even the "City Water" is pretty untreated well water. Each town has anywhere from one to six 18" drilled wells. They put very minimal amounts of chlorine in, and most parts of the system you can't even tell. 

There is a couple residential blocks in one town that gets a horrid amount of chlorine, doesn't seem to cause any extra leaks though. Just be careful not to breathe when opening a toilet tank!

Most houses here could use a softener. Many others could use an iron filter. A few need a neutralizer to fix low ph. Most wells get a standard 2x10 sediment filter.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

jim285pro said:


> It was a specific area that had a lot of high end homes. 7500 homes. More than 70% had issues. Some homes were 10-15 years old. Some were 5 years old. Once they started we would repair them. Then learned after a year or so that the copper had to go. Tried all kinds of stuff to solve it. Some homes had it worse than others. Interestingly it used to always start on the cold main horizontal runs before the WH. It’s prob why I hate cutting drywall more than anything. I have PTSD from all the access holes I had to cut. Made a lot of money though. We had at its peak a 3 month waiting list for repipes. 2 crews of 3 just for those. I spent months bidding the repipes.


Give us an idea on what you would charge on one of those repairs please


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

sparky said:


> Give us an idea on what you would charge on one of those repairs please


Yes.


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## jim285pro (Sep 3, 2020)

Your gonna laugh…..the best absolute way to fix those pinholes in that situation was a hose clamp and a small piece of rubber gasket off of something. You didn’t have to shut the water down. The problem with a house that had a lot of the pinhole leaks was if you shut the system down and drained it, when you refilled the system the water would rinse places that weren’t eat through yet and you would have more leaks. Leaving the system full and patch it. Of course these were houses we repiped later. Price depended on where it was And accessibility. Back then it was prob 150-200 per leak. The holes in the pipe were so small you couldn’t see them spraying sometimes. Stream of water smaller than a hair. a lot of times leaks would calcify And plug themselves. Saw this a lot in crawlspaces where the leak wasn’t known about


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

jim285pro said:


> Your gonna laugh…..the best absolute way to fix those pinholes in that situation was a hose clamp and a small piece of rubber gasket off of something. You didn’t have to shut the water down. The problem with a house that had a lot of the pinhole leaks was if you shut the system down and drained it, when you refilled the system the water would rinse places that weren’t eat through yet and you would have more leaks. Leaving the system full and patch it. Of course these were houses we repiped later. Price depended on where it was And accessibility. Back then it was prob 150-200 per leak. The holes in the pipe were so small you couldn’t see them spraying sometimes. Stream of water smaller than a hair. a lot of times leaks would calcify And plug themselves. Saw this a lot in crawlspaces where the leak wasn’t known about


First time someone has a pinhole I take a sample to be tested and determine if the system has seen any changes recently, ask about recent electrical issues. Electrical issues causing pinholes are rare, but they can happen. 

Sometimes it's the repair of an electrical issue that caused the pinholing to start. Keep in mind that galvanic reaction, aka corrosive pitting, is an electrical reaction. The acidic water just acts as a catalyst for the reaction. Can't have a battery cell without the battery acid. If you have an electrical charge being applied to the system it can counteract the galvanic reaction. Large underground tanks have constant electrical charges applied to them in tandem with the usual bags of zinc to inhibit corrosion.


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## jim285pro (Sep 3, 2020)

today I charge flat rate on some thing’s but time and material on most with the material volatility. I try to charge 170 per hour with a 80 trip charge. I mark up material 20-30% depending on how hard it is to find. I also charge for consumables depending on what it is. I have alot of older customers though. Lots of widows that I’m a softy for. I typically cut them a break. Biggest thing for me is I spend 0 on advertising. I don’t even have biz cards anymore. 100% repeat and referral.


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## jim285pro (Sep 3, 2020)

skoronesa said:


> First time someone has a pinhole I take a sample to be tested and determine if the system has seen any changes recently, ask about recent electrical issues. Electrical issues causing pinholes are rare, but they can happen.
> 
> Sometimes it's the repair of an electrical issue that caused the pinholing to start. Keep in mind that galvanic reaction, aka corrosive pitting, is an electrical reaction. The acidic water just acts as a catalyst for the reaction. Can't have a battery cell without the battery acid. If you have an electrical charge being applied to the system it can counteract the galvanic reaction. Large underground tanks have constant electrical charges applied to them in tandem with the usual bags of zinc to inhibit corrosion.


I hear ya. Believe me, I have researched that stuff to death And we tried everything. In our area it’s 99% of the time the water. Id bet Money I have seen and repaired more pinholes than 99% of plumbers.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

jim285pro said:


> I hear ya. Believe me, I have researched that stuff to death And we tried everything. In our area it’s 99% of the time the water. Id bet Money I have seen and repaired more pinholes than 99% of plumbers.


Red Rainbo and a hose clamp works good for sprinkler pipe too. On copper I will often cut the pipe at the pinhole and put a slip coupling on. If there are several spots I will replace a section of pipe or just solder over the pinholes. On large waste lines I will cut a patch piece from 1" copper and solder it on.


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## jim285pro (Sep 3, 2020)

the old bolt on clamps worked well but we’re overkill. We used to barely crack the water on after making Repairs the way you describe and let it take 15 minutes to fully pressurize and we would still have more leaks. Leaving it pressurized was the way to go


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## jim285pro (Sep 3, 2020)

I can’t tell you how many Mansfield seals I have cut up to use for the repairs.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

jim285pro said:


> the old bolt on clamps worked well but we’re overkill. We used to barely crack the water on after making Repairs the way you describe and let it take 15 minutes to fully pressurize and we would still have more leaks. Leaving it pressurized was the way to go


I get what you're saying. One thing we teach apprentices early on is shut off as little of the piping as is necessary.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

jim285pro said:


> Your gonna laugh…..the best absolute way to fix those pinholes in that situation was a hose clamp and a small piece of rubber gasket off of something. You didn’t have to shut the water down. The problem with a house that had a lot of the pinhole leaks was if you shut the system down and drained it, when you refilled the system the water would rinse places that weren’t eat through yet and you would have more leaks. Leaving the system full and patch it. Of course these were houses we repiped later. Price depended on where it was And accessibility. Back then it was prob 150-200 per leak. The holes in the pipe were so small you couldn’t see them spraying sometimes. Stream of water smaller than a hair. a lot of times leaks would calcify And plug themselves. Saw this a lot in crawlspaces where the leak wasn’t known about


The ole stalagmites


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

PEX, because the phuck do I care!


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> Luckily we have mostly well water here. Even the "City Water" is pretty untreated well water. Each town has anywhere from one to six 18" drilled wells. They put very minimal amounts of chlorine in, and most parts of the system you can't even tell.
> 
> There is a couple residential blocks in one town that gets a horrid amount of chlorine, doesn't seem to cause any extra leaks though. Just be careful not to breathe when opening a toilet tank!
> 
> Most houses here could use a softener. Many others could use an iron filter. A few need a neutralizer to fix low ph. Most wells get a standard 2x10 sediment filter.



That chlorine and chlormines crap will probably kill you slowly....like cancer 25 years from now..
If it smells like a swimming pool when taking off the 
tank lid on the toilet, its pretty heavy,,,, and you bathe, brush your teeth and drink it every day.... 
I threw in some carbon filters in my relatives homes because they
were worried about the high levels of chlorine and you could really tell the difference immediately....

We have thrown in a few in some new homes recently for this very same reason and I did not 
think to even mention how it probably lengthens the life of the pex lines....... 

protecting the pex pipes in new homes,,,,that is going to be part
of the sales pitch from now on


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> That chlorine and chlormines crap will probably kill you slowly....like cancer 25 years from now..
> If it smells like a swimming pool when taking off the
> tank lid on the toilet, its pretty heavy,,,, and _*you bathe, brush your teeth and drink it every day.... *_
> I threw in some carbon filters in my relatives homes because they
> ...



It ain't my water! I ain't drinking it!

Yes, some of the areas have excessive levels of chlorine. As for chlorinated water in general, I have yet to see any evidence that it is harmful. I see plenty of evidence pointing toward chlorine being the lynch pin to a *potable, *municipal water supply. Frankly, without chlorine, modern plumbing would be disgusting.

Often modern plumbing is disgusting! Ever smelled well water that wreaked of sewage? I've lost count of how many wells I've found sucking air through the electrical conduit which usually has dead rodents, bugs, and water in it. I chlorinate wells all the time.

Even if every home on town water had a backflow preventer you'd still need to chlorinate the water supply. Too many ways for bacteria to enter a municipal plumbing system.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> It ain't my water! I ain't drinking it!
> 
> Yes, some of the areas have excessive levels of chlorine. As for chlorinated water in general, I have yet to see any evidence that it is harmful. I see plenty of evidence pointing toward chlorine being the lynch pin to a *potable, *municipal water supply. Frankly, without chlorine, modern plumbing would be disgusting.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with you.....its just the higher levels of the stuff that I am talking about..

Down south of me 5 miles that municipalitys water is nasty.... if you fill the bathtub for the kids bath
you can inhale the vapors from the high levels of the stuff..... Also it really depends on how close 
you are to the pumping station or where they inject the chlorine into the system.....
We got one area in town near the north side water company that is eating up water softeners in
about 6 years due to the high levels.....


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