# Slab rough ins



## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

Im just curious how you guys normally rough in for toilets. 

I'm on my second slab remodel following behind somebody else and both were done differently than I was taught. We always set the flange before concrete, tape over it to keep clean and then my little invention was to fold up some sill foam in the slots and tape them in place to prevent the need to chip out later. Sometimes the flange ends up 1/4" too low and no big deal.

1st slab job I followed on was a high 3" stub wrapped with about 1/2" of sill foam so all you had to do was remove the foam, cut it about 1/4" below slab and then glue the flange on. This is a decent method.

2nd slab job yesterday there are no apparent signs of the toilet pipe whatsoever other than a vent pipe. The shower box was about 2" below grade. After looking at the H O pics of the rough he apparently just stubbed a pipe up and put a pile of gravel on it. This method is ****. 
If he is truly 2" too low, then how I wonder, if he can eventually find the thing does he plan on putting a flange on that pipe?

One of the other ways I had considered doing these after I went out on my own was to use a 3x4 closet bend, stub a 4" pipe high, then it would just have to be trimmed flush and a TKO flange glued to the inside of the pipe.


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

Alan said:


> Im just curious how you guys normally rough in for toilets.
> 
> I'm on my second slab remodel following behind somebody else and both were done differently than I was taught. We always set the flange before concrete, tape over it to keep clean and then my little invention was to fold up some sill foam in the slots and tape them in place to prevent the need to chip out later. Sometimes the flange ends up 1/4" too low and no big deal.
> 
> ...


The 3x4 90 stubbed up high and then cut flush with the concrete and glue the flange on the inside is what we always do. Easy, well supported and perfect height

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Wouldn't it be against code to reduce from large to small? For me that would be not allowed.

Were also not allowed to use a flange inside the pipe but I still see it installed anyway.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Stub up with a 4" closet riser well above the slab; this gets capped.


Then, when it is time to set fixtures, simply cut it down at finished floor height and install the closet flange. I was taught this way and have been doing it that way for over {20} yrs.


Installing a closet flange before the slab gets poured is silly in my opinion. Now cast iron might be a bit more of a challenge, but not so with PVC.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Tango said:


> Wouldn't it be against code to reduce from large to small? For me that would be not allowed.
> 
> Were also not allowed to use a flange inside the pipe but I still see it installed anyway.




















Correct. Our code also prohibits reducing a drain or sewer line as it flows downstream. However, our code allows a 4"x3" closet bend {4" riser pipe which then reduces to a 3" horizontal drain} to be used.


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## canuck92 (Apr 1, 2016)

I break down a cardboard box wrap it around the pipe an duct tape it, then pull out the soggy cardboard on the rough in. Makes a nice sleeve an its easy to pull out.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

​


canuck92 said:


> I break down a cardboard box wrap it around the pipe an duct tape it, then pull out the soggy cardboard on the rough in. Makes a nice sleeve an its easy to pull out.


This is what I was taught. Also we place 4 2” stainless screws in the flange before concrete is poured.


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## canuck92 (Apr 1, 2016)

OpenSights said:


> ​
> 
> 
> canuck92 said:
> ...


I set the flange after the concrete is pourd though.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

we dont use pvc under ground yet, so either a lead bend or cast iron, either one gets about an inch or so of cardboard wrapped around the pipe so it can be removed and flange installed..after concrete pour...i use expandable pipe plugs to keep any crap out of pipes during construction and pour..the cheaper ones you hand twist the big wing nut on..they save alot of hassle by keeping debris out of the pipes.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

I do the same thing with card board. Many years ago we got store bought "closet protectors" they were cardboard you slip over the 4 inch. set ring after slab poured. the screwes need to be put in as my code required ring be fastened to floor.
As for the 3x4 flange you mentioned Alan I think its not legal to glue to inside a 4 inch pipe but have done it dont know what is really wrong with it or how it would be a problem though. I shy away from that method because I dont think its legal


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## canuck92 (Apr 1, 2016)

I know guys who run 4" bds an glue a 4x3 closet flange inside the 4" iv never seen anything in MY codebook that says you cant.
I still prefer to run 3" abs and sleeve it though. 
" theres more then one way to f*ck a donkey"


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

canuck92 said:


> " theres more then one way to f*ck a donkey"


Yet somehow I don't see anyone in this thread repeating the method I saw on this job. :vs_laugh:


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

canuck92 said:


> I know guys who run 4" bds an glue a 4x3 closet flange inside the 4" iv never seen anything in MY codebook that says you cant.
> I still prefer to run 3" abs and sleeve it though.
> " theres more then one way to f*ck a donkey"


 My take is a 3 inch hub isnt supposed to glue inside of a pipe. A pipe isnt supposed to have anything glued inside of it. a 3 inch coupling glues inside a 4 inch pipe pretty good too but cant be legal. Cheating on a code issue is something nearly everyone does occasionaly but choosing which things you do is your integrety , intellegently figure out the downfall of doing these things . Therefore I wouldnt recomend doing your closet ring in this manner as a plan but if my 4 inch was 3 inches below the slab and wasen wrapped I might and I have glued a 3 inch inside of it , its an ok trick in my book but not prefered at all


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

jeffreyplumber said:


> My take is a 3 inch hub isnt supposed to glue inside of a pipe. A pipe isnt supposed to have anything glued inside of it. a 3 inch coupling glues inside a 4 inch pipe pretty good too but cant be legal. Cheating on a code issue is something nearly everyone does occasionaly but choosing which things you do is your integrety , intellegently figure out the downfall of doing these things . Therefore I wouldnt recomend doing your closet ring in this manner as a plan but if my 4 inch was 3 inches below the slab and wasen wrapped I might and I have glued a 3 inch inside of it , its an ok trick in my book but not prefered at all



we all have tricks or cheats to get out of impossible binds to get the job done, most will work fine but its not the standard..but in a pinch they work..


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

Alan said:


> Yet somehow I don't see anyone in this thread repeating the method I saw on this job. :vs_laugh:


 Alan forgot to mention yea Ive had to do that too wrap with cardboard fill center with sand . dirt whatever. Take your hammer beat real hard around where you think it is youll hear or feel it . extend to top of concrete in method you prefer. When concrete truck is coming and you have to fix something and 6 more houses need attention you gotta get creative and fast A bucket ,card board box foam wrap whatever. Thats why experiance in all facets of plumbing help you. most are so simple but not always thought of. Its great experiance you get by mixing up the work you do even though you might make more money faster staying in a more narrow specialty.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

these work well too,


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> .i use expandable pipe plugs to keep any crap out of pipes during construction and pour..the cheaper ones you hand twist the big wing nut on..they save alot of hassle by keeping debris out of the pipes.


I learned the hard way not to use the wing nut plugs for the 10’ water head pressure test. I was up on the roof filling the vent with a garden hose and heard the GC start yelling to shut it off. That plug shot out of the toilet flange followed by about a 6’ column of water. Good times


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

jeffreyplumber said:


> My take is a 3 inch hub isnt supposed to glue inside of a pipe.



These are specifically designed for that purpose, so I would say OK. 

https://www.siouxchief.com/products/drainage/residential/closet-flanges/tko

As mentioned previously, I can't recall seeing anything in the code that would prohibit that. If somebody knows of something i'd love to see the code section.


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

Here in NC we can't glue inside the pipe. It's specifically in the code. I hate it but it is the way it is.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Debo22 said:


> I learned the hard way not to use the wing nut plugs for the 10’ water head pressure test. I was up on the roof filling the vent with a garden hose and heard the GC start yelling to shut it off. That plug shot out of the toilet flange followed by about a 6’ column of water. Good times


when i water test either glued caps on lower floor and jim caps top floor....to try and keep things dry..


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Debo22 said:


> I learned the hard way not to use the wing nut plugs for the 10’ water head pressure test. I was up on the roof filling the vent with a garden hose and heard the GC start yelling to shut it off. That plug shot out of the toilet flange followed by about a 6’ column of water. Good times


Thinking of that...Since we don't test CI pipe in our province and I had to work in the other province the foreman gave me a second year apprentice to test the 4" stacks and wanted to test them 6 floors at a time. That's a lot of fraking pressure but hey he's the boss. Off to work we went until someone came rushing in where I was filling the stack with a hose. He exclaims there's a flood below. Well the hub of the branch towards the toilet just popped off. That was funny, no squeegees, several 1st years trying to gather shop vacs, extension cords not long enough.

The last one made them change their mind, the engineer who was the "inspector" got a little wet. :biggrin:

Anyway after 3-4 pops and floods like that we were told to do 3 floors at a time.:vs_laugh:


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> we all have tricks or cheats to get out of impossible binds to get the job done, most will work fine but its not the standard..but in a pinch they work..


I remember once we had to connect PVC drain pipes to the non standard swimming pool floor drains. There was a large gap and I suggested cutting up face shields into strips and glue to take the gap. The company boss gave me the go ahead and it worked. No leaks and no worries as those pipes were in a concrete tunnel underneath just for those drains.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Debo22 said:


> I learned the hard way not to use the wing nut plugs for the 10’ water head pressure test. I was up on the roof filling the vent with a garden hose and heard the GC start yelling to shut it off. That plug shot out of the toilet flange followed by about a 6’ column of water. Good times


What we do sometimes on the yellow Oateys is remove the wing-nut and replace it with a 3/8 nut & washer. Then crank down on it with an impact drill. Works pretty good.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Tango said:


> Thinking of that...Since we don't test CI pipe in our province and I had to work in the other province the foreman gave me a second year apprentice to test the 4" stacks and wanted to test them 6 floors at a time. That's a lot of fraking pressure but hey he's the boss. Off to work we went until someone came rushing in where I was filling the stack with a hose. He exclaims there's a flood below. Well the hub of the branch towards the toilet just popped off. That was funny, no squeegees, several 1st years trying to gather shop vacs, extension cords not long enough.
> 
> The last one made them change their mind, the engineer who was the "inspector" got a little wet. :biggrin:
> 
> Anyway after 3-4 pops and floods like that we were told to do 3 floors at a time.:vs_laugh:



I'll give you some slack since you mentioned you don't test NH in your home jurisdiction. BTW: Why don't you test CI in your province?
From Tyler's installation guide:
Test:
For best results, testing of one floor (ten feet) at a time is
recommended. If more than one floor at a time is tested, the system
should be properly restrained; all bends; changes of direction and
ends of runs should be restrained.
From Charlotte's installation guide:
Isolate each floor or section being tested by inserting
plugs into the test tees in the stacks.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

PLUMB TIME said:


> these work well too,


 They work, but not as well as cardboard. Some use foam wrap, also not as good as cardboard. I've even used scrap pieces of thermocell 3-3/8"IDx1/2" wall or 4-3/8"IDx1/2" wall. I'd recommend this since it works great, though a little expensive.


I haven't seen the premade cardboard spacers at any wholesaler's in quite a while, there are manufacturers who could still make them. I did a wsearch and came up with a half dozen American firms that from their product lines look very caspable of producing them.
For example:
https://acepapertube.com/paper-tubes/


I guess it's not a big enough market.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Plumbus said:


> They work, but not as well as cardboard. Some use foam wrap, also not as good as cardboard. I've even used scrap pieces of thermocell 3-3/8"IDx1/2" wall or 4-3/8"IDx1/2" wall. I'd recommend this since it works great, though a little expensive.
> 
> 
> I haven't seen the premade cardboard spacers at any wholesaler's in quite a while, there are manufacturers who could still make them. I did a wsearch and came up with a half dozen American firms that from their product lines look very caspable of producing them.
> ...



I suppose on large commercial jobs they could take a beating, but the small stuff I do, and the amount of control on the job site, they work well.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Tango said:


> Wouldn't it be against code to reduce from large to small? For me that would be not allowed.
> 
> Were also not allowed to use a flange inside the pipe but I still see it installed anyway.


No they are allowed in most codes,the 90 is sloped so that there is no restriction and it only allowed on closet risers


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Plumbus said:


> They work, but not as well as cardboard. Some use foam wrap, also not as good as cardboard. I've even used scrap pieces of thermocell 3-3/8"IDx1/2" wall or 4-3/8"IDx1/2" wall. I'd recommend this since it works great, though a little expensive.
> 
> 
> I haven't seen the premade cardboard spacers at any wholesaler's in quite a while, there are manufacturers who could still make them. I did a wsearch and came up with a half dozen American firms that from their product lines look very caspable of producing them.
> ...


These work perfect just wrap cap with duct tape or finishers will destroy them everytime:vs_mad:


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Plumbus said:


> I'll give you some slack since you mentioned you don't test NH in your home jurisdiction. BTW: Why don't you test CI in your province?
> From Tyler's installation guide:
> Test:
> For best results, testing of one floor (ten feet) at a time is
> ...



There aren't any inspectors for starters so that means it costs a lot less when bidding jobs. It probably costs less to fix a few than to test everything.

And last only one year warranty.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Alan said:


> Im just curious how you guys normally rough in for toilets.
> 
> I'm on my second slab remodel following behind somebody else and both were done differently than I was taught. We always set the flange before concrete, tape over it to keep clean and then my little invention was to fold up some sill foam in the slots and tape them in place to prevent the need to chip out later. Sometimes the flange ends up 1/4" too low and no big deal.
> 
> ...







This is exactly how it should be done on all of your stub ups. A few of our guys dick around with those red plastic buckets with foam and other stupid things. Our best slab guy who has since started his own company would leave a pipe sticking out 2'. When the slab was done he would cut it off with a sawzall and then follow up with an internal pipe cutter if needed.


I was with him on a commercial basement where the slab had been poured a couple weeks before. I was confused when I went into the basement because he said we were doing something with floor drains but all I saw were drops from the second floor. It wasn't until I asked that I found out he had just used 10' sticks of 4" pvc for stub ups. He said it helped keep the pipe from floating and then the concrete guys wouldn't get concrete in your stubs. That guy did not give a phuck about convention.



I keep one of the sioux chief ss 4x3 tko flanges on my van. They are stainless and they fit 3" AND 4" pipe, what else could you ask for? You don't actually need to cut the stub a quarter inch below grade with an internal pipe cutter. Just angle your sawzall at more than 45 degrees and the flange will sit flush.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

A newish fernco cap will easily hold 30psi. They will hold even more if you use primer. 







.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

http://www.wheelerrex.com/products/...ools/internal-plastic-pipe-cutters/index.html


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

4" x 3" ell or just a 4" riser. Cut off and insert a "flush fit" closet flange. The only & best way as far as I am concerned. Hit the mark all the time, no pulling out foam or cardboard, stable, easy to secure, no worries about final tile heights. Smoother finish around the pipe.


Is legal in Illinois, in fact about the only exception is the reduction of a closet bend.


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## PathMaker (May 10, 2013)

For crying out loud new construction guys PUT SOME FRIGGIN TAPCONS IN THE FLANGE AND ANCHOR IT TO THE FLOOR!!!!!

Just gluing a flange on without securing it to the substrate is not code and its not good enough.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

PathMaker said:


> For crying out loud new construction guys PUT SOME FRIGGIN TAPCONS IN THE FLANGE AND ANCHOR IT TO THE FLOOR!!!!!
> 
> Just gluing a flange on without securing it to the substrate is not code and its not good enough.


Uh don't know, is there a picture I missed that doesn't show that, except the retail sales photo?


Plumbing 101 period.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

PathMaker said:


> For crying out loud new construction guys PUT SOME FRIGGIN TAPCONS IN THE FLANGE AND ANCHOR IT TO THE FLOOR!!!!!
> 
> Just gluing a flange on without securing it to the substrate is not code and its not good enough.


Ain't nobody got time for that! Lol


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Do they make stainless tapcons?


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Plumbus said:


> Do they make stainless tapcons?


No but they are corrosion resistant. That what I use now even for wood, it has aggressive teeth and have a good grip.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

PathMaker said:


> For crying out loud new construction guys PUT SOME FRIGGIN TAPCONS IN THE FLANGE AND ANCHOR IT TO THE FLOOR!!!!!
> 
> Just gluing a flange on without securing it to the substrate is not code and its not good enough.


Who are you yelling at? I get that you specified new con guys but did you mean us here posting in this forum?

If you did, I take issue with that assertion. I am not a new con guy, 99% of the time I am doing service. Also, I would never neglect to secure a toilet flange to the floor.

I prefer tapcons but I have used the pot metal hammer rivits before too. I had one where the concrete was barely around the pipe and I had to use those expanding wing nuts and bolts.



.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Tango said:


> No but they are corrosion resistant. That what I use now even for wood, it has aggressive teeth and have a good grip.


Corrosion resistant is not corrosion proof. I stick with stainless. SS initial cost amortized over the longer useful life of the screws is a good investment. 
That said, I don't have any beef with tapcons. I think they are a very good product.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Plumbus said:


> Corrosion resistant is not corrosion proof. I stick with stainless. SS initial cost amortized over the longer useful life of the screws is a good investment.
> That said, I don't have any beef with tapcons. I think they are a very good product.


I haven't seen SS screws that are long and large enough for toilet flanges. All the installation I see have rotted nails, drywall screws, 1/2 wood screw that aren't long enough or nothing at all! I think my idea will outlast everything I see.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Tango said:


> I haven't seen SS screws that are long and large enough for toilet flanges. All the installation I see have rotted nails, drywall screws, 1/2 wood screw that aren't long enough or nothing at all! I think my idea will outlast everything I see.


If you do service work you don’t want screws that will last forever,you want them to rot out after a few yrs so you can go back and charge again


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## PathMaker (May 10, 2013)

Not yelling at any one particular person on here. Just yelling through the forum on this topic to anyone who might be reading it. I see glue flanges with no screws all the time, almost exclusively here in Charlotte when I am pulling a loose downstairs toilet on a slab. 

As far as I know, none of you fine gentlemen partcipated in those shady events, so I guess I am just yelling at the forum lurkers.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Tango said:


> I haven't seen SS screws that are long and large enough for toilet flanges. All the installation I see have rotted nails, drywall screws, 1/2 wood screw that aren't long enough or nothing at all! I think my idea will outlast everything I see.


12x3" SS phillips screws work well. If anything longer is required, I'd say there is a floor thickness problem.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

I too just use tapcons for concrete floors and the enamel paint coated electro galvanized deck screws for wood floors. If the toilet is on solid and the gasket doesn't leak than you shouldn't need s.s. screws in a wood floor because they should be dry anyway. And tapcons are made for concrete and even hold up fairly well when used in sewage/effluent pump tiles so I am confident they will be ok in a slab.




.


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

We use these lead anchors


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

tim666 said:


> View attachment 110732
> 
> We use these lead anchors



Those work well, mostly because they aren't lead. Lead would be too soft. They are zinc/tin.




.


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## davidplumber (Feb 21, 2019)

Tommy plumber said:


> Stub up with a 4" closet riser well above the slab; this gets capped.
> 
> 
> Then, when it is time to set fixtures, simply cut it down at finished floor height and install the closet flange. I was taught this way and have been doing it that way for over {20} yrs.
> ...


 in new construction i usually left 2'', but in remodeling is between 3/4-1 1/4'.
better less then more,always can put double wax...


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## ken53 (Mar 1, 2011)

davidplumber said:


> in new construction i usually left 2'', but in remodeling is between 3/4-1 1/4'.
> better less then more,always can put double wax...


Double wax means double the chance for leaks do it right once. Then it won't come back an grab your wallet.:biggrin:


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ken53 said:


> Double wax means double the chance for leaks do it right once. Then it won't come back an grab your wallet.:biggrin:



You guys still use wax? I use the black rubber seals from wb.





.


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## czplumbing (Nov 24, 2014)

canuck92 said:


> I break down a cardboard box wrap it around the pipe an duct tape it, then pull out the soggy cardboard on the rough in. Makes a nice sleeve an its easy to pull out.


same here but I sleeve the 3" with 4" and wrap cardboard around the 4"


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## Kleinfelterj (Jan 23, 2012)

They make ss tapcons


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