# Need Advice



## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Saturday I was contacted by a home owner explaining to me her home was a fire rehab, and her drains where running slow. Also the local inspector from the town told her the piping under the kitchen sink needed to be changed to a double wye with two traps.

So when I got there I noticed her main sewer was backed up so we started to power rod the sewer. I looked at the kitchen sink drain pipes, there is no garbage disposal, so per the Illinois plumbing code a single p-trap can serve both basins. So the home owner got the inspector on the phone, and he said if the basins are more than 6" deep they both needed to be trap. In my gut I felt he was still wrong but did not want to argue the point with out having my code book in hand. Then he asks what company I am with. I told him and he said our license on their file is not up to date. No problem I will update it. 

Now here is the part that has me uneasy, he then tells me I need to put my license on her permit and take responsibility for all the plumbing updates in the house. Apparently her GC had her put down the plumbing was being done by the home owner, and he found out the GC did the work. So now they are trying to push me to get my license information in to them and put it on her permit. I told her if I do this and they find anything else wrong with the plumbing she will have to pay me to correct it along with any fee's the city hits me or her with.

So I am wondering if the city has the right to make me take responsibility of all the plumbing in the house that I never did except make the correction to the sink pipes per the way he wanted it done and power rod the main line and sink line.

So whats your thoughts? Any Illinois inspectors wish to chime in?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

They tryin to do your dirty. Who knows he might be taken a kickback everytime he and his pals run sombody out of business.
Any new construction going on in the area? You know what he's tellin you is that 99% of new kitchen sinks being installed will have two traps now. Call the supply house. calla friend or another company that does alot of new construction.
Better yet get all the ammendments to your code book and see what the book says..If he argues then tell him to get his codebook an show you. They are required to have a copy with them here and show the code if theres a question.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Absolutely; that's what a takeover permit does. In the state of KY when you pull a permit on a takeover you assume all responsibility of it.


Il is a different state but that's the norm most times. If I was you I would remove myself from that situation like you see evil staring at you in the eyes. 

That's a bad one and I don't care what you sign with the property owner; you're on the hook. 

Tell that inspector that there's a Master Plumber from KY calling him an idiot for double trapping a kitchen sink. 

Do they make you all individually trap/vent a 3 compartment sink? If they do then he's right. But if no...he's just trying to make life difficult.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> They tryin to do your dirty. Who knows he might be taken a kickback everytime he and his pals run sombody out of business.
> Any new construction going on in the area? You know what he's tellin you is that 99% of new kitchen sinks being installed will have two traps now. Call the supply house. calla friend or another company that does alot of new construction.


Oh when I got home I checked the Illinois code he was wrong on the fact if both basins are more than 6" deep. If one basin was more than 6" deeper than the other then it would of required two traps. That part I do not mind. The part that has me concerned is they want me to put my license on the permit and take responsibility for someone else's work.

*Section 890.410 Fixture Traps/Continuous Waste *

a) Fixture Traps. All directly connected plumbing fixtures, except those having integral traps, shall be separately trapped by a water-seal trap, placed as close to the fixture outlet as possible. * A kitchen sink with up to 3 basins may be installed on one trap if one compartment is not more than 6 inches deeper than the other and the waste outlets are not more than 30 inches apart.*


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Thing is I am not taking over, all the work is done. He failed her on the kitchen sink drain, which is when she spilled the beans that the GC did the work not her.



DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Absolutely; that's what a takeover permit does. In the state of KY when you pull a permit on a takeover you assume all responsibility of it.
> 
> 
> Il is a different state but that's the norm most times. If I was you I would remove myself from that situation like you see evil staring at you in the eyes.
> ...


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

He's wrong, according to that code statute.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I would never take responsibility for someone elses work and me know about it. Not all money is good money.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

agreed, the sinks where of equal depth.



DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> He's wrong, according to that code statute.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> Thing is I am not taking over, all the work is done. He failed her on the kitchen sink drain, which is when she spilled the beans that the GC did the work not her.


 

But in essence, when you take a permit that's covering that entire plumbing system that was worked on, it would be. 

Somewhere in this equation there probably needs to be a licensed plumber in the equation so the insurance company or building permits look okay to the situation. Probably a requirement.


Run man! RUN!!


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Does the city you are working in use IL code or their own interpretation of Chicago code?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Why does the inspector expect you to take responsibility for work you didn't do? Why isn't he breaking the homeowners balls and the general contractor? Thats what I woulda asked him.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Tell him to pound sand.

Does your code require a permit for the clearing of stoppages, and a minor repair? Ours does not.

If all you did was fix a trap under the sink, and rod a drain, then no permit is necessary. DO NOT allow someone to muscle you into taking responsibility for work you did not do!!!:no: You earned no profit, so why take a risk?

Stand up to him. Be polite, but firm. Don't worry about "what if I get him on another inspection?" Do your job correctly, and you wont have any problems. 

Maybe call the state, and see what they think about his statements. (or your lawyer)


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Does the city you are working in use IL code or their own interpretation of Chicago code?


 Its the City of Lombard, they use the Illinois Code


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Just read a few more posts that came up while I was typing my last one. Had something similar several years ago. I bet the inspector knows the GC, and is trying to cover the GC's ass. Screw 'em. He did the work, without a Licensed plumber. Call the state and turn the GC in.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> Its the City of Lombard, they use the Illinois Code


Do they still have that old guy that looks like he farts dust as the inspector?

I don't recall anything in the State Code that requires you to assume responsibility for work you did not do, but you probably know the state code better than I do.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Do they still have that old guy that looks like he farts dust as the inspector?
> 
> I don't recall anything in the State Code that requires you to assume responsibility for work you did not do, but you probably know the state code better than I do.


I remember the old guy, he was a good inspector. It some young guy, I never met before. But he sure did not like me over the phone. I got a feeling he thinks I am the plumber that did all the work.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

If all of the GC plumbing work is already covered up. Walk away. The GC was pulling a scam and got caught. If YOU can inspect the work he did and are ok with it, you have them over a barrel. Make sure the inspector knows what went down. The GC and HO would be lucky if the inspector does not make them open walls. I would in a heart beat.


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## grandpa (Jul 13, 2008)

I would want a contract in writing from the homeowner that while you are putting your license up, you did not do any work and any items required by subsequent inspections will be fixed based on an agreed in advance change order to the basic contract. Anything short of that....seems like you are really laying yourself out there.


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## Christina (Jul 14, 2009)

Well said Grandpa...
I am thinking too much headache and I would have to tell somebody to 
*KICK ROCKS!*


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

I would submit a bid to rip out the entire plumbing system and repipe all of it. If the homeowner agrees, then I'll sign the permit.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

I recently had a customer that rejected my remodel bid because he said he had a gc that would "do it all cheap". Assuming the gc had his own licensed plumber, I said, "ok, sounds good."
About three months goes by and the customer calls me and says there are some pipes leaking and the plumbing won't pass inspection. I go over there and *NOTHING* has been done to the old plumbing. Actually, it looks like nothign has been done, period to the whole building. The so called "GC" doesn't seem to have done anything at all.
So I called the customer yesterday and left him a message that NOTHING has been done, and I'll have to do all the work that I originally bid to do, and the bid was still the same.
Haven't heard back from him yet. Imagine that.:laughing:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> Saturday I was contacted by a home owner explaining to me her home was a fire rehab, and her drains where running slow. Also the local inspector from the town told her the piping under the kitchen sink needed to be changed to a double wye with two traps.
> 
> So when I got there I noticed her main sewer was backed up so we started to power rod the sewer. I looked at the kitchen sink drain pipes, there is no garbage disposal, so per the Illinois plumbing code a single p-trap can serve both basins. So the home owner got the inspector on the phone, and he said if the basins are more than 6" deep they both needed to be trap. In my gut I felt he was still wrong but did not want to argue the point with out having my code book in hand. Then he asks what company I am with. I told him and he said our license on their file is not up to date. No problem I will update it.
> 
> ...


One trap on a double bowl kitchen sink is slam dunk. Ask the inspector to kindly show you in the green book where it says otherwise. Because you cannot find it.

If the GC did the work. He will have a choice to make.

1. Pay the fine and get down the road.(This doesn;'t help the HO. the money goes in the plumbing program, not to make code corrections) The inspector doesn't want this.
2. Pay a licensed plumber to come make the necessary code compliance issues correct. (Win-win, inspector is happy, you get income, HO gets a quality plumbing job)

THEN, the entire plumbing system will have to be tested. Pressure test water. Water head pressure test on the DWV. 

If you do get involved, You aren't on the hook for work you didn't do. You will be on the hook for the work you do correcting violations, ONLY.

Take photos of what you did before and after. 

Keep the inspector in the loop as to what the proposed changes are, and when the work is completed.

To re-iterate. You are not on the hook for the entire system. 

If you correct everything you see wrong, with your license on the permit. Then the sytem fails the water head test. That is just more money the GC is paying for corrections.

PM me the inspectors name. I might be able to assist.


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## Pipedoc (Jun 14, 2009)

I agree with ILP on this. I think what is going on here might be a simple misunderstanding between you and the inspector. Maybe he didn't make himself clear or maybe you misunderstood him. 

Let me explain.

Down here in my neck of the woods this happens with some frequency. Someone will get busted working on their income property with out a plumbing license and the inspector will tell them they have to get a licensed plumbing contractor to "sign off" on the job. Some inspectors will do this even if the plumbing job will pass the inspection. I appreciate it when they do this because they are holding this person to they same standards that they hold us to. That standard obviously is the code. If they can't legally do the work they wll at least have to pay a plumber to sign off on it. They could always fine them but why not let a plumber get some work out of it instead.

Give him another call and ask him if his intentions are to hold you responsible for someone else's work or if the intent is to ensure that a licensed plumbing contractor has properly tested and reviewed the plumbing system prior to his final inspection.

It has been my experience down here that it is the latter not the former. I always thank my inspectors for this. 

I have charged people $500.00 to sign off on their plumbing inspection when it was up to code. Not bad for a quick trip to the house to look at the work and a trip to city hall to pull a permit. In instances where the work wouldn't pass I would qoute a fee to review the entire system, necessary costs for bring the job up to code, and necessary fees for all tests of the system. I have landed some really nice jobs this way. For some reason whenever I get one of these calls the HO is telling me they already spoke to several other companies and nobody was interested. They usually won't even shop the prices I quote.

One last thing I'd like to add. If the inspector is not going to require you to open the walls for the inspection I would be very careful on how I worded my contract. It would state that I was only reviewing exposed plumbing for code compliance and I am in no way making any warranties to workmanship, fitness, or merchantability of plumbing not installed by us or inspected by us. Any additional work required by the inspector would be performed at additional charges.

That way nothing can come back to bite you in the a$$ later and everyone wins.

Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

I have had people cal lme with that line we just need you to pull the permit its all done.. I tell them If i pull the permit i will have to remove they work they did and redo it myself because i don't pull permits for work i didn't do.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

OK here is the skinny on whats going on with this job and why the inspector was the way he was with me on the phone.

GC tells home owner he is going to put on the permit plumbing done by home owner. When the inspector came through the first time, there where numerous violations. The home owner told the inspector that she will tell the GC to make the fixes. The inspector said that he was told by the GC that she was the one to do the plumbing, but either way they need to hire a plumber to make the corrections. 

Well The GC calls the city and asks what he needs to do to make things right. The inspector told him hire a plumber they will know what to do. Then the home owners boyfriend calls saying he is a plumber and wants to know what is it he needs to do to make things meet the code. When the inspector asked for his license number he then admitted he was just a handyman. 

So now enter me, I walk in she tells me drain is clogged and the inspector says there needs to be a double wye and each basin needs to be trapped. So I call the inspector questioning why he wants each basin on their own traps. The code only calls for that if there is a garbage disposal. Which he then misinterprets the code saying the basins are more than 6" deep so they both need to be trapped. Then he gets short with me telling me thats why he is paid the big bucks, and that I need to sign off on all the plumbing work in the building.

So I went to the village hall and talked to one of the inspectors explained what has transpired. He then explains to me they been out there 5 different times, and they where fed up with the home owner trying not to hire a plumber. That all I need to do is ensure the visible plumbing (water heater, shower valve adjustments, traps) meet the code. And if when they reinspect and it does not meet code they will not hold me responsible, but will hold the home owner responsible to hire me or another plumber of her choice to make the corrections. He then gave me a list of what he found wrong, I went to the home and did an inspection and only found one thing that was not corrected. They want a copper line for the ice maker supply.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

So what's the final word on that double trap then?

The attitude of that plumbing inspector sounds like someone very green to his profession.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

When he said "Thats why I get paid the big bucks" I would have cussed him for everything he is worth. And I'm not joking.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> So what's the final word on that double trap then?
> 
> The attitude of that plumbing inspector sounds like someone very green to his profession.


 Well I plumbed it in the way he wanted that night I was there. It still meets the Illinois plumbing code. Just in reality it did not need to be changed.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Ahh. Sounds like the people were very difficult. I bet you'll meet up with that inspector someday as well.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Ahh. Sounds like the people were very difficult. I bet you'll meet up with that inspector someday as well.


Yep I just got the brunt of the one inspectors frustration.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> When he said "Thats why I get paid the big bucks" I would have cussed him for everything he is worth. And I'm not joking.


Big bucks, yeah right. 2 yrs inspecting almost put me in the poor house.:yes:


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## Tieger plumbing (Nov 13, 2009)

Word of advice RUN like hell and do not get involved UNLESS you do as I did for a home owner I removed all the piping installed by unknown and installed all new piping as you do not need the liability of a leak or if any thi should go wrong the last one to touch it is held accountable.

Many homes owners and Billy Butt Cracks /stumble bums dabble in plumbing whjo are not qualified and your expected to take responsibility for their inept installations I DONT THINK SO


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