# Pex or Copper, what do you use?



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Let's put this issue to rest once and for all. Let's take a little unofficial survey here. After a week or so we could have a pretty good idea what is the norm these days. No arguing about who is right or wrong or why you use it. Just let us know what you use these days. No bashing!
When bidding a new home or remodel do you bid it with pex or copper?
When doing re-pipes do you use pex or copper?
If you use Pex, what product do you like to use?
If you are a pex user, do you think you will ever go back to using copper for the above type jobs in the future?


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

I'll start, I bid all my jobs for Pex. When doing service and re-pipes I use almost all pex if possible.
I like the Pureflow product made by Viega with the stainless steel sleeves and bronze fittings.
I will never go back to using copper for the above type jobs.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

ironranger said:


> I'll start, I bid all my jobs for Pex. When doing service and re-pipes I use almost all pex if possible.
> I like the Pureflow product made by Viega with the stainless steel sleeves and bronze fittings.
> I will never go back to using copper for the above type jobs.


You sure?

What happens if Viega catches a lawsuit in the future like most companies?

Will you still stand behind them?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I think we have been over, under, and all around this issue about a thousand times already and this thread should be shut down before it rapidly gets out of hand, yet again. What you are looking for is some sort of vindication of your choice, when in truth it does not matter one single bit what anyone prefers as they are ultimately the ones that are going to have to take the responsibility for thier choice. We all know your feelings on the subject and believe it or not we all respect your decision because it is your decision. The problem is that you seem to have problem respecting some members decision and opinions contrary to yours. So what if 75% of the members vote for PEX, what are you going to do, raise the flag of victory? Are the other 25% going to suddenly see the error of their ways and immediatly switch to PEX?


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I think we have been over, under, and all around this issue about a thousand times already and this thread should be shut down before it rapidly gets out of hand, yet again. What you are looking for is some sort of vindication of your choice, when in truth it does not matter one single bit what anyone prefers as they are ultimately the ones that are going to have to take the responsibility for thier choice. We all know your feelings on the subject and believe it or not we all respect your decision because it is your decision. The problem is that you seem to have problem respecting some members decision and opinions contrary to yours. So what if 75% of the members vote for PEX, what are you going to do, raise the flag of victory? Are the other 25% going to suddenly see the error of their ways and immediatly switch to PEX?


You don't have to take part Nhmaster. I'm not looking for an argument, just want to see what other plumbers are using. Why are taking such offense with a simple little survey?:whistling2:


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

******* said:


> You sure?
> 
> What happens if Viega catches a lawsuit in the future like most companies?
> 
> Will you still stand behind them?


I'm not worried at all. You are bunching all pex into one category, that's not right. Just like all plumbing products there are good and there are better and there are best.
The company I use has been around for over 100 years. The pex they manufacture has been installed for over 25 years. They have a 25 year guarantee (I'm pretty sure you will see that guarantee rising), I'm very confident in what I'm installing.


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## WestCoastPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I love copper and want copper. Now, pex on return lines might be good idea, insualted of course.

Pex stub out, never, all pex should stay inside the wall.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

OK - I like copper and can't remember any copper company ever being sued


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I use hollowed out wood logs


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

works for this guy

I think I am going to switch


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Working in power plants/schools and restaurants, L copper is all we deal with. We couldn't make pex look acceptable to nuke/coal burner engineers.


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

jjbex said:


> Working in power plants/schools and restaurants, L copper is all we deal with. We couldn't make pex look acceptable to nuke/coal burner engineers.


Different needs and applications = different materials.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

I dont actually think there is a place where copper is NOT allowed and only pex is...is there such a place...in the USA.....?


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

******* said:


> I dont actually think there is a place where copper is NOT allowed and only pex is...is there such a place...in the USA.....?


I don't think it's ever a question of it being allowed, the question is preference. I really wasn't speaking of commercial work, I should have been more clear. But then again I did just speak with a general up in Anchorage who IS requiring Pex on a lot of the jobs.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I am not saying my material is better, the o.p. wanted to know what material we used. My area is Northeastern Illinois, Greater Chicago area. Pex is seldom seen or used around here. I have used it once, in a brutal crawlspace where there was no room to sweat pipe. I also hooked up a manifold to pex pipe installed by the H/O for radiant heat.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

My question is:

Is pex allowed in commercial work?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Guess that would all depend on the engineer's spec's.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

I have never used PEX, nor have I seen it in person, it is not code approved in my area, we use either copper or galvanized steel pipe for water pipe depending on what the building engineer requires.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

******* said:


> My question is:
> 
> Is pex allowed in commercial work?


Not that I've ever seen.


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## gladerunner (Jan 24, 2009)

Mostly copper. I've done a few jobs with pex and I have to admit it was a lot faster and cheaper, but I really wasn't happy with the look of the finished product where it was exposed and visable. (mechanical room, unfinished basement). In the grand scheme of things I feel that a project completed in copper, though more expensive has a much more professional look when completed. With the majority of my work being new housing, the quality of our piping could be part of what sells the property.
How often do you hear of "Home Inspector's" complimenting the workmanship? We hear it all the time.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

We use K copper below ground and L copper above.

D.I. or R.O. water , we use sch 80 pvc.

If not K copper some small water services are sch80 PVC

Large water services are C900 or ductile iron.

Water mains are all C900


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

******* said:


> My question is:
> 
> Is pex allowed in commercial work?


I was just told last week by a commercial contractor working and living in Anchorage that they use it and was required on the last two jobs. They use it a lot for snow melt and heating, some potable water.

*******, honestly, have you ever used Pex? If so, what kind do you use? I'll have more questions after I hear your answer.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Yes, I used pex when I lived in NC about ten years ago , other then that no, all copper in NY 

except for a few times on some Radiant heat, staple up and some red stuff with brass fittings

But I am more of a ball breaker then a hater, and if I just came out and asked why pex is good people would be bored and not respond..

If I jazz up my responses a bit the forum comes alive, Please buddy, remember I am a plumber too, Its just that forums get boring 

Don't take it personal.....I mean come on, do you NOT argue at work?

**** I do,......


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Pex is allowed in commercial work here.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Ron, can you use it for hi rise construction? and if so how many stories?


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

We don't really have high rises here.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> We don't really have high rises here.


Any building over three stories is technically a high rise.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

******* said:


> Yes, I used pex when I lived in NC about ten years ago , other then that no, all copper in NY
> 
> except for a few times on some Radiant heat, staple up and some red stuff with brass fittings
> 
> ...


Not taking it personal *******, just asked a simple question. I'll ask another. Are you even plumbing now? If so do you work for someone in New York or do you work for yourself? I believe you when you say you're just here to bust folks balls, I believe you're here for the entertainment value. So you used the "red stuff" with brass fittings? Somehow ******* I don't think you have ever used pex in your life.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Any building over three stories is technically a high rise.


I do believe it is up to 3 stories only.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Ron, can you use it for hi rise construction? and if so how many stories?



I have never really been involved in construction above 3 stories.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

In KY, 45' is the highest a building can be before it has to be done in all cast iron, copper, down to the chrome brass traps. No PVC piping of any kind at all.





Does anyone know the answer for the reasoning for no PVC in high rises? 

There's numerous answers to that question.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Fire, noise, hydraulic shock.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Roast Duck said:


> Does anyone know the answer for the reasoning for no PVC in high rises?
> 
> There's numerous answers to that question.


Theres numerous reasons for it. The expansion /contraction rate of PVC is huge, it can be over two inches in a hundred feet of pipe, if not compensated for the stacks in a high rise would pull themselves apart.

PVC is made out of petroleum by product, basically garbage, but garbage that burns fairly easily. You can firestop around openings till all the cows in Kansas come home, but it doesn't do a damn bit of good if the pipe you are firestopping around is burning.

PVC is noisy, noisier even than copper drains, when you have to do stack offsets every five floors to slow wastewater down you are creating floors that no one would want occupy because of the noise unless you spent some serious money on accoustic insulation.

PVC is known to get brittle as it ages, and high rise buildings have a tendency to move, the taller they are the more they move, so after time a PVC system would be destroyed by the very building it serves. 

There are other reasons but I'm tired of typing.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

The sad thing is that in another 20 years or so there won't be any of us old dinosaurs around to install C.I. Half of the apprentices we get have only very limited experiance with no hub and virtually no experiance with B&S. Oh well, the union guys will have it all wrapped up I supose.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

When I was out west I installed a lot of cast iron. San Francisco required it, worked there for two years. Also a lot of custom homes where they wanted it for noise reduction. No hub cast iron, take it or leave it. I would rather leave it, thank goodness it's not required around here. Now days I'm ripping it out, holes all over the underside of it on the horizontals and bubbles all over the verticals, lot's of it 50 years old and rotted completely out.


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## brad7596 (Nov 1, 2008)

i use copper when chasing into brickwork and on pre existing housing. on new work i use rehau with copper tails to the hot water unit. our regs state that there is to be a metre of copper off the HWU before you change to any plastic piping


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Fire, noise, hydraulic shock.





Killertoiletspider said:


> Theres numerous reasons for it. The expansion /contraction rate of PVC is huge, it can be over two inches in a hundred feet of pipe, if not compensated for the stacks in a high rise would pull themselves apart.
> 
> PVC is made out of petroleum by product, basically garbage, but garbage that burns fairly easily. You can firestop around openings till all the cows in Kansas come home, but it doesn't do a damn bit of good if the pipe you are firestopping around is burning.
> 
> ...


 
NH hit it on the money and I knew you'd know KTS, being that's your forte and don't you all run under NPC in Ill? 


Years ago in my twenties, I repiped a 3 story building, came in at 43' from the bottom of the 90 in the basement to the tip of the roof vent on the roof.

There was one offset before it made it into the basement so that took care of hydraulic jump/sweep, is that what you're talking about NH? Same thing? Solids left behind and form a hump a few feet from the bottom of the stack?


The building I did had stacked bathrooms with kitchen sink turnouts close by. Did the Kitchens all with 2", but back then I was green; I installed wye's and street 90's facing the opening of the sinks. Basically an S-trap config which is wrong. Should of been tees but I was looking at it totally from a drain cleaner's perspective, all the way. 


When you bend your leader, you can easily go up a vent no problem. 

Fire stops are useless as mentioned; when that piping melts it will act as a furnace right up through the chaseway. 

I strapped the hell out of that stack, all laterals very well with plastic strapping, knowing that piping system will contract and expand.

Even though I took a lot of precautions, I made sure I didn't strain that piping into position as I know what happens years later. It'll snap/crackle/pop at a fitting under strain.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

We have our own code in IL. Written by our dept. of Public Health.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> We have our own code in IL. Written by our dept. of Public Health.


Two of them, IL State Code written by Dean Thady, and City of Chicago code, the city code is fairly brutal, it's why I like it.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I'm all for that; difficult codes. The more specific/strict the code is, the better it applies/protects/performs as a non-fouling system.


When they get laxed is when all the problems start.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

OK now I am just lost ,.......I am out of this thread for now


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

******* said:


> OK now I am just lost ,.......I am out of this thread for now



What don't you understand?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Two of them, IL State Code written by Dean Thady, and City of Chicago code, the city code is fairly brutal, it's why I like it.


 
I have skimmed though your code. It is a true work of art. The rest of the country should adopt it. It would put a screeching halt to 90% of the DIY and hack work. Instead, we're busy finding new ways to pipe houses with AAV's.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Yes. If you have aggressive water or soil(many parts of the country do) then copper would be a stupid choice. My area happens to be one of them. You will not find a single plumber using copper in my area. I understand that many parts of the country do not have water that attacks copper. If you live in one of those areas then by all means, use copper.



******* said:


> I dont actually think there is a place where copper is NOT allowed and only pex is...is there such a place...in the USA.....?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It would depend on the application. Anywhere you are running really hot water, no. There is no code in my area that says one type of pipe must be used for resi and one for commercial. If it works for the application then you can use it.



******* said:


> My question is:
> 
> Is pex allowed in commercial work?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Yes, as long as you don't exceed it's ratings.



nhmaster3015 said:


> Ron, can you use it for hi rise construction? and if so how many stories?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

see below



Killertoiletspider said:


> Theres numerous reasons for it. The expansion /contraction rate of PVC is huge, it can be over two inches in a hundred feet of pipe, if not compensated for the stacks in a high rise would pull themselves apart.
> 
> PVC is made out of petroleum by product, basically garbage, but garbage that burns fairly easily. You can firestop around openings till all the cows in Kansas come home, but it doesn't do a damn bit of good if the pipe you are firestopping around is burning. That's why they invented fire collers.
> 
> ...


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> What don't you understand?


Oh, I just lost track where we were, now that I am rested, I am following along......just a long day yesterday and there was to many posts 

Thanks for asking though 

How was your day today?

Hope it was well


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I have skimmed though your code. It is a true work of art. The rest of the country should adopt it. It would put a screeching halt to 90% of the DIY and hack work. Instead, we're busy finding new ways to pipe houses with AAV's.


I doubt anyone would pass inspection plumbing a house with aav's instead of vents.:laughing:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Yeah we have a great code. The problem is, the inspectors are spread too thin. I don't see things changing with our state budget situation the way it is. The plumbing program had a lot of money till Blago raided it for the general fund. 

Down south we have 2 inspectors covering 27 counties:no:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

ironranger said:


> I doubt anyone would pass inspection plumbing a house with aav's instead of vents.:laughing:


They make 3" stack AAV's and the IPC allows for their use.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I have skimmed though your code. It is a true work of art. The rest of the country should adopt it. It would put a screeching halt to 90% of the DIY and hack work. Instead, we're busy finding new ways to pipe houses with AAV's.


The state code or the city?

State code is easy compared to the city.


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## plumb4fun (Feb 18, 2009)

Protech said:


> Yes. If you have aggressive water or soil(many parts of the country do) then copper would be a stupid choice. My area happens to be one of them. You will not find a single plumber using copper in my area. I understand that many parts of the country do not have water that attacks copper. If you live in one of those areas then by all means, use copper.


 In our area of California L copper pipe springs pinhole leaks in less than 10 years. I use Wirsbo pex in repipes for this reason.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Why State code naturally. :thumbsup:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Sounds like a logical choice.



plumb4fun said:


> In our area of California L copper pipe springs pinhole leaks in less than 10 years. I use Wirsbo pex in repipes for this reason.


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## solarman.net (Feb 2, 2009)

Pex ... I'm in Florida .. lots of pinhole leaks with copper ... UPONOR


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

I find it interesting that people say that they don't like the look of PEX. I think it's kinda nice. When I walk into a house with PEX, I know that repairs to any problem are a piece of cake. I don't have to worry about dripping water. I don't have to worry about noises from water hammer. I don't have to worry about setting the house on fire. And I don't have to worry that the cost of materials will bankrupt me. The HO is happy, too. 

The selling point in Propress is that it cuts a great amount of labor from the job. Sure, we don't like that because we want lots of hours. But when you're trying to cut costs to get the bid, you look at things like a T-drill and think, wow, that could get me the bid. 

I used to be very proud of my ability to work with copper, and I still am. Dude! I don't even have to wear gloves when I use PEX. There's no solder splashing in my eyes or burning my knee. From a bidding perspective, you can make a lot more money on a copper job, and you can cost the customer a lot more as well.

No plumbing material is perfect. There will be problems. Who the hell thought orangeburg was a good idea? Sure, there will be people who can go down and buy a couple of crimpers and plumb their own houses. Sorry, but they've been using a Bernz-O-Matic here for as long as there has been copper. And if they couldn't manage that, they just used galvanized. I commonly see homes plumbed in galvanized from as little as ten years ago. When the "brothers" get together to help each other out, they may not know what they're doing, but they do it anyway. You can't stop them.

We work for the people who want to hire a plumber.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

COPPER, sometimes copper, usually copper, the more I think about it ......Copper it is. Let's just say I think the jury is still out and needs to be out for another 10-15yrs befor I transition. I have several certs for different manufacturers of pex JIC.


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