# Add "Gas Fitting" to the title?



## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

I'm just curious if anyone agrees with my idea - since many plumbers DO gas fitting, but gas fitting is technically a seperate trade, should Gas Fitting have a seperate sub forum, or at the very least be incorporated into the title of this sub-forum (Boilers, Gas Fitting, Hot Water & Steam Heating) ???

Thoughts


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Gas fitting is part of plumbing in Texas.


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## DIZ (Nov 17, 2010)

In BC, you get your B ticket w/ plumbing. IMHO most plumbers are not qualified to do a lot of gas fitting and are typically uncomfortable stepping out of their comfort zone. This division of trade should be broken down into a sub category.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

slickrick said:


> Gas fitting is part of plumbing in Texas.


Same in NJ


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

I know some States have licenses limited to Gas Fitting only but Plumbers can still do it. I've never understood the purpose of requiring plumbers to have an additional license for gas.

Mark


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## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

Yes, Yes, Gas Fitting is often "Part" of PLumbing in some areas, but it IS a seperate trade altogether in my opinion. Pick up any Gas Code Book and I challenge you to tell me it isn't more complicated or strict than any Plumbing code book. There are more details, more potential issues, and the potential problems are more likely to cause death than any of the other pipe fitting trades, in my opinion. 

Where I live in BC, StreamFitting, Plumbing, and Sprinklerfitting are seperate Red Seal endorsed trade certifications (i.e. when you are certified you receive your red seal ticket which means you are certified to work accross Canada in each of the above mentioned trades) where as the Gas Tickets are managed seperately by each Province and often a ticket you receive as an associated type of ticket with the above mentioned Red Seal Trades or you can get a stand alone gas ticket if you want which is a shorter course. 

The Gas Ticket where I live in BC, Canada is broken down into 3 sub tickets - A, B, & C ticket. In other Provinces they have similar or the same designations but they are called by different names; I think in the Province of Alberta it's broken down into tech level 1, 2, 3, etc. (could be wrong, correct me if so). 

Where I live, most gas Fitters are 'B' Gas fitter , which as it currently stands limits you to 400,000 BTUH. Anything above that is now considered 'A' Fitting (i.e. commercial/industrial). Getting your 'B' Ticket in BC is relatively easy in my opinion. Your 'A' Ticket is another matter and requires a bit of investment and committment to attain due to the dangers associated with it. The difference is best summed up between the 3 tickets in BC by the size of the explosion you can create basically (funny as it sounds.....).


But you're telling me that it's not worth of it's own section or at least naming in this forum - how many plumbers in here are firing up Roof top units, or Direct Fired Make up Air Units, or Large Fire Tube stream boilers? How many Plumbers who apparently have a seperate gas ticket can calculate which purge card to use with a programming safety control?


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Scott K said:


> Yes, Yes, Gas Fitting is often "Part" of PLumbing in some areas, but it IS a seperate trade altogether in my opinion. Pick up any Gas Code Book and I challenge you to tell me it isn't more complicated or strict than any Plumbing code book. There are more details, more potential issues, and the potential problems are more likely to cause death than any of the other pipe fitting trades, in my opinion.
> 
> Where I live in BC, StreamFitting, Plumbing, and Sprinklerfitting are seperate Red Seal endorsed trade certifications (i.e. when you are certified you receive your red seal ticket which means you are certified to work accross Canada in each of the above mentioned trades) where as the Gas Tickets are managed seperately by each Province and often a ticket you receive as an associated type of ticket with the above mentioned Red Seal Trades or you can get a stand alone gas ticket if you want which is a shorter course.
> 
> ...


Comparing my 2003 IFGC "Fuel Piping" section to my 2006 UPC "Fuel Piping" section I found the "Fuel Piping" section of the UPC to be 20-pages longer.

Mark


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## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> Comparing my 2003 IFGC "Fuel Piping" section to my 2006 UPC "Fuel Piping" section I found the "Fuel Piping" section of the UPC to be 20-pages longer.
> 
> Mark


Where I live, the National Plumbing Code of Canada does not contain Gas Fitting sections or headings (or Gas code, for that matter). The Gas Fitting code book where I live is a seperate code book which is CSA B149.1. When you step up into A Gas fitting there is a seperate Gas Code book you must also utilize which is the CSA B149.3 There is no 'A' Plumbing where I live.

There is A LOT of Gas Fitting work that does not involve Plumbing. This is the basis for my request, on top of having a focused area for direct gas fitting questions/issues.

Burners & Combustion is as science of it's own. In fact the CSA B149.3 has a lot of rules that apply specifically to flame safeguard systems. If you think venting drainage can make your head spin, wait until you step into flame safeguard controls. But Oh, GAs Fitting is just part of Plumbing right? BS!!


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Scott K said:


> Where I live, the National Plumbing Code of Canada does not contain Gas Fitting sections or headings (or Gas code, for that matter). The Gas Fitting code book where I live is a seperate code book which is CSA B149.1. When you step up into A Gas fitting there is a seperate Gas Code book you must also utilize which is the CSA B149.3 There is no 'A' Plumbing where I live.
> 
> There is A LOT of Gas Fitting work that does not involve Plumbing. This is the basis for my request, on top of having a focused area for direct gas fitting questions/issues.
> 
> Burners & Combustion is as science of it's own. In fact the CSA B149.3 has a lot of rules that apply specifically to flame safeguard systems. If you think venting drainage can make your head spin, wait until you step into flame safeguard controls. But Oh, GAs Fitting is just part of Plumbing right? BS!!


My point was counting pages does not mean much. If you look at the IPC it is 91-pages long compared to 439 in the UPC yet no one seems to agree on which is the superior Code.

Mark


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Scott K said:


> Yes, Yes, Gas Fitting is often "Part" of PLumbing in some areas, but it IS a seperate trade altogether in my opinion. Pick up any Gas Code Book and I challenge you to tell me it isn't more complicated or strict than any Plumbing code book. There are more details, more potential issues, and the potential problems are more likely to cause death than any of the other pipe fitting trades, in my opinion.
> 
> Where I live in BC, StreamFitting, Plumbing, and Sprinklerfitting are seperate Red Seal endorsed trade certifications (i.e. when you are certified you receive your red seal ticket which means you are certified to work accross Canada in each of the above mentioned trades) where as the Gas Tickets are managed seperately by each Province and often a ticket you receive as an associated type of ticket with the above mentioned Red Seal Trades or you can get a stand alone gas ticket if you want which is a shorter course.
> 
> ...


I disagree completly that gas is more dangerous than the plumbing trade in which it covers...

I just had this discussion with one of my apprentices who is currently take his gas or oil burner at night school. 

We were driving to a job site and he starts telling me how more dangerous gas fitting and oil fitting is..... so I let him go on and on about it... I think they are telling these guys this in the coarse....

I so I informed him ... that in consideration of what plumbing encompases I think plumbing would be the most dangerous.

When dealing with large volumes of water.... 

1. When dealing with large volumes of water....the head pressure alone can kill some one
2. high water pressure systems and working on that system with realizing there is that much pressure behind it
3. cross connection of potable water systems
4. pressure vessels and thermal expansion and relief valves
5. oxygen lines
6. pipe laying in trenches
7. sewer gas explosions
8. floor drains and sump holes in gararge ( oil& gas interceptors )
9. septic tanks and enclosed enviroment work.

There is so many ways to actually injure or cause death in plumbing that the list will go on and on.... 

The only way not to cause injury or death is to be competent.....

That being said..... Just having a gas ticket or licence does not ensure that you are competent just like having any other trade licence ensure you are competent.

Competence comes from experience with guidence from somebody teaching you along the way.... and that Sir comes from a life time of working in your chosen feild.


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## plumber666 (Sep 19, 2010)

Thought we were unlimited BTUs with atmospheric burners, and a million fan assisted with Class B?

But yeah, I think gasfitting should come under it's own seperate header. Just as long as there's not just one guy doing all the posting and being real dull like on the sprinklerfitting forum.


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## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

plumber666 said:


> Thought we were unlimited BTUs with atmospheric burners, and a million fan assisted with Class B?
> 
> But yeah, I think gasfitting should come under it's own seperate header. Just as long as there's not just one guy doing all the posting and being real dull like on the sprinklerfitting forum.


It's changed - as far as I know (check with the Gas Safety Branch), if you got your GAS B 2009 or earlier, you are still grandfathered with I think it's 750,000 BTU power burner, and unlimited atomspheric. However for all intents and purposes they are moving everyone towards what most provinces do which I believe is 400,000 over/under (you get the just). I think that we may eventually see gas fitting become a red seal trade at some point in the future. At least that's where the talk is.

Do I really have to list all the potential dangers involved in Gas Fitting as a comparison to Plumbing to figure out which one is more dangerous? The average Gas Fitter has more factors that CAN KILL their customer. Did I say there wasn't any in Plumbing?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Scott K said:


> Yes, Yes, Gas Fitting is often "Part" of PLumbing in some areas, but it IS a seperate trade altogether in my opinion. Pick up any Gas Code Book and I challenge you to tell me it isn't more complicated or strict than any Plumbing code book. There are more details, more potential issues, and the potential problems are more likely to cause death than any of the other pipe fitting trades, in my opinion.
> 
> Where I live in BC, StreamFitting, Plumbing, and Sprinklerfitting are seperate Red Seal endorsed trade certifications (i.e. when you are certified you receive your red seal ticket which means you are certified to work accross Canada in each of the above mentioned trades) where as the Gas Tickets are managed seperately by each Province and often a ticket you receive as an associated type of ticket with the above mentioned Red Seal Trades or you can get a stand alone gas ticket if you want which is a shorter course.
> 
> ...


 

The way I see it, what's the difference what goes through the pipe; water, steam, gasoline, medical gases, ammonia, etc.? If you know how to install a piping system correctly then I don't care what is passing through that pipe, a master plumber can handle it. :thumbsup:


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## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

The Gas Fitting Trade is not just about installing Gas Pipe. 

Nor is the Plumbing, or Sprinklerfitting, or Steamfitting trades.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

slickrick said:


> Gas fitting is part of plumbing in Texas.


In Arkansas also


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Scott K said:


> The Gas Fitting Trade is not just about installing Gas Pipe.
> 
> Nor is the Plumbing, or Sprinklerfitting, or Steamfitting trades.


Nor is it here.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

Scott K said:


> Yes, Yes, Gas Fitting is often "Part" of PLumbing in some areas, but it IS a seperate trade altogether in my opinion. Pick up any Gas Code Book and I challenge you to tell me it isn't more complicated or strict than any Plumbing code book. There are more details, more potential issues, and the potential problems are more likely to cause death than any of the other pipe fitting trades, in my opinion.
> 
> Where I live in BC, StreamFitting, Plumbing, and Sprinklerfitting are seperate Red Seal endorsed trade certifications (i.e. when you are certified you receive your red seal ticket which means you are certified to work accross Canada in each of the above mentioned trades) where as the Gas Tickets are managed seperately by each Province and often a ticket you receive as an associated type of ticket with the above mentioned Red Seal Trades or you can get a stand alone gas ticket if you want which is a shorter course.
> 
> ...


All this may be true, but in Arkansas we have a plumbing code and a fuel gas code book of equal size and scope. To be a master plumber you must pass a test that includes both of these books. So, as in many states, if you are a Master Plumber, you are also a Master Gas Fitter. There are separate licenses for HVAC, and Electrical. HVAC guys cannot run gas lines, Propane companies could run their own lines, but now only plumbers can. We wouldn't have boilers and such here.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Scott, what exactly are you trying to say? 

In Texas we are lic. to run gas. It's not a walk in the park to pass the test. We must have a separate endorsement for LP.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Do you think they just turn us loose to size and install gas systems without qualifications?


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Its just a difference between the States and Canada. Most of the States qualify us under one license. Just because Canada makes it a seperate license doesn't make it superior. :no:


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## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

If you can go back to the purpose of this thread, that is what I am trying to say. 

And Yes, Gas fitting IS a seperate trade. Whether or not it is included in your plumbing license is up to the authority having jurisdiction in your area. 

I'm happy that some of you guys consider gas fitting plumbing because it is included in your plumbing license.


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## DIZ (Nov 17, 2010)

I always know when a plumber with little gas exp. has done an install. Missing drip pockets, prohibited use of flex lines, no union or poorly located, type of ball valve and handle location, lack of air intake or improperly sized where required, nesting bushings, street fittings.....the list go's on and on. I think my doctor is qualified to perform certain types of medical procedures, but I would rather go to a specialist. IMHO, gas is a completely diff. type of animal and should have it's own category. Just sayin.....


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

In California we have a number of contractor classifications which relate to some form of plumbing. 
C-4 - Boiler, Hot Water Heating and Steam Fitting Contractor
C16 - Fire Protection Contractor
C34 - Pipeline Contractor
C36 - Plumbing Contractor
C42 - Sanitation System Contractor
C55 - Water Conditioning Contractor
C57 - Water Well Drilling Contractor

I think a good portion of what Scott K refers to under gas fitting would be covered by our C-4 classification. 

As for Diz's description of how he can distinguish between a gas fitter and a plumber, I think that goes back to training and or lack thereof. A good JATC program for plumbing, coupled with field supervision would cover the proper installation of gas piping and fittings. If the gas piping run by plumber's who work for my firm looked like that which he attributes to plumbers, I would be as disapproving as he is. And, I doubt such work would pass inspection in many of the cities and towns I work in.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

It is covered under being a PLUMBER here.


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## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

So Slickrick - is this Plumbing Zones official stance on GasFitting having it's own subforum, or at the very least being named as one of the topics in this forum?

The only reason I ask is because when this very site first started, I recall suggesting the site had a Boiler/Heating forum and I got the exact same type of resisitance to change if I recall correctly. 

I also need to ask Slickrick, if a GasFitting is Plumbing, when why is there other seperate forums with headings such as Sprinklerfitting, and then Boilers/Steamfitting, etc. etc. ?

I also need to ask - how many Plumbers on here who have a Gas fitters license included as part of their Plumbers license (My gas fitting license is included in the schooling of my Plumbing license, but it is a seperate stand alone ticket that one can get on their own if they wanted without becoming a Plumber, and I can upgrade my 'B' ticket to an 'A' ticket) have fired up a direct fired make up air unit? How many would feel confident doing one, having never done one before?


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

I can see this will not end well................Maybe it's time to....:surrender:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

(1) I am a member here on PZ 1st and foremost. As a moderator, I have no official capacity, as far as what the contents of this site contain.

(2) I did not read where there was anyone resisting change. Maybe trying to understand how you see it as a separate state.

(3) Trying to find specialist a home, so they will fit in somewhere?

(4) I don't follow the relevance to you case.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Thank god for Texas, we get a plumbing license and can go to work. There are endorcements to the license like med gas, and water protection specialist. All that is needed here is a masters and min of 300,000 in liability ins. I have always thought of gas as plumbing, who else is equiped and knowledgeable enough to install gas lines. I would think that gas would be a big part of any plumbing test.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

As far as Gasfitting being a sub-section, I personally don't see any special need in it. If Nathan wants to add it, so be it.


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## plumber666 (Sep 19, 2010)

deleted


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## SPH (Nov 4, 2008)

I agree with Scott, there should be a separate heading for gasfitting.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

I'm licensed to do Gas. In New Mexico we have to license in gas to do gas even though we test on it for our plumbing license. An inspector we used to have honored the plumbing test as sufficient because it covered gas. The present inspector does not. Piperats plumbing involves digging holes you could put a building in, others do things that are just as vast but in different areas of expertise. I respect everybody here and learn from them all. Sounds like you want a pat on the butt and a "way to go" thing. Okkkkkkkkkkk :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## wundumguy (Apr 3, 2010)

There is historic evidence that Gas Fitter was at one time a recognized trade. The modern UA was founded on October 11, 1889 as the United Association of Journeymen Plumbers, Gas Fitters, Steam Fitters, and Steam Fitters' Helpers of the United States and Canada. While not a pipe trades historian, I can imagine at least two good and valid reasons for the demise of the Gas Fitter trade. My thoughts on the BC Class "B" Gas Fitter designation:

Every pipe trades worker in BC must certify to minimum Class "B" Gas Fitter in order to install and/or service a gas fired appliance. We are required in BC, as with many jurisdictions, to hold certain safety certifications dependant on our assignments, whether they be about gas, oil, refrigerant, confined space entry, aerial work, WHMIS, TDG, first aid, etc. However, a pre-requisite to employment, even if it is quite involved, does not define a trade.

We are not employed because we know how to install and service the combustion side of an atmospheric burner - that just comes with the territory. We are employed because we can design, install, utilize and troubleshoot everything that is not on the combustion system. In every jurisdiction in North America, domestic hydronic heating is part of the Plumber trade. Whether the safety certification or energy source employed is electricity, gas, wood, coal, oil, or whatever they dream of next, the work is still that of, generally speaking, Plumbers.

Most pipe trades workers in BC with Class "B" Gas Fitter certification do not identify themselves with "Gas Fitter", but instead with their respective trade and/or occupation: Plumber, Pipe Fitter, Refrigeration Mechanic (HVAC Tech/Mech), and Sprinkler Fitter. The worker who's claim to fame is the right to call himself a Class "B" Gas Fitter, served a 2-year "apprenticeship" as an install/service tech for a gas fired: restaurant equipment supplier, fireplace and barbeque dealer, swimming pool maintenance company, duct cleaning and furnace company, etc. These semi-skilled technicians are the "Gas Fitters" of British Columbia.
The owner of a fireplace dealership obviously pefers to have their own (lower cost) one trick pony technicians rather than employ higher paid pipe trades journeypersons or contract to a pipe trades organization. Having a gas safety certification makes sense in this context, and if a jurisidiction has one, it's only sensible that all workers involved with the regulated material be certified. However, Class "B" Gas isn't really a trade, so much as a gas combustion safety certification.

Issues arise with the development of independent certifications that encroach upon the scope of work traditionally performed by members of the pipe trades, or any trade for that matter. It has been more than a generation since the introduction of the Gas "B" certification as a "safety" certificate for pipe trades journeypersons. Next was the addition of a mandatory 2 year "apprenticeship" to make this a regionally designated "trade" for workers like a fire place installer. More recently this certificate has been built upon to develop the regionally designated trades: Certified Heating (Hydronic) Technician (boilers) and Certified Heating (Forced Air) Techncian (furnace).

As of now, stand alone courses and "apprentice programs" are offered to produce lesser skilled certified "journeypersons" to perform the installation and service of residential and light commercial gas fired appliances and related heating system in British Columbia. While it may be good for some businesses, the piecemeal certification of work, traditionally the practice of pipe trade workers, cannot be beneficial for the future of apprentices or journeypersons of the piping industry. Imagine if this trend continues and there came to BC, regionally certified Sanitary and Drainage Technicians or Residential Plumbing Technicians. It will spell the end of the Plumber and his apprentice when competition is a company able to deploy lesser skilled "factory workers", each possibly very good in their limited scope of practice. It will however, be of great benefit to the big box stores and business owners in it only for the money.

Is a Plumber that excels with Hydronic systems no more than a Gas Fitter or certified Heating Technician? I hope not. Would an Automotive Mechanic ever call himself a Tire Repairer, or an Automotive Wheel Alignment and Brake Service Technician? These are also designated trades in British Columbia, but I want my mechanic to be more than both combined!


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## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

wundumguy said:


> There is historic evidence that Gas Fitter was at one time a recognized trade. The modern UA was founded on October 11, 1889 as the United Association of Journeymen Plumbers, Gas Fitters, Steam Fitters, and Steam Fitters' Helpers of the United States and Canada. While not a pipe trades historian, I can imagine at least two good and valid reasons for the demise of the Gas Fitter trade. My thoughts on the BC Class "B" Gas Fitter designation:
> 
> Every pipe trades worker in BC must certify to minimum Class "B" Gas Fitter in order to install and/or service a gas fired appliance. We are required in BC, as with many jurisdictions, to hold certain safety certifications dependant on our assignments, whether they be about gas, oil, refrigerant, confined space entry, aerial work, WHMIS, TDG, first aid, etc. However, a pre-requisite to employment, even if it is quite involved, does not define a trade.
> 
> ...


Perhaps you can tell us the history of how Sprinklerfitting and Steamfitting came to become seperate trades then?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I agree with wundumguy.... thats is the same way in Ontario

Gas techs are licenced through TSSA which is not a government organization.... They call themselves a non for profit organization.

All the real trades licence are issued by the provincial government under the ministry of skills and trades..

So in reality a gas ticket or licence is not a trade but a licence issued by a private organization...

This I find really odd because the Ontario government in essence created a private monopoly to issue gas licence.....

All the time I though monopolies were illegal.....

I wonder if I can get the government to create a monopoly for me so I can sell licences for a specific task.


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## wundumguy (Apr 3, 2010)

Scott K said:


> Perhaps you can tell us the history of how Sprinklerfitting and Steamfitting came to become seperate trades then?


As stated earlier, I am not a pipe trades historian, or a historian in any manner. However, I'm not as convinced all orginated from a grand daddy trade and "became separate" trades so much as they simply evolved independently to a large degree.

Back in the 1800's, Sprinkler Fitter, Steam Fitter (Pipe Fitter), Plumber, and Gas Fitter were all separate trades - at least in so far as a significant number of workers in the pipe trades agreed that they ought to be. UA local 179 Saskatchewan was founded with Gas Fitters included in represented trades. I believe they still have Gas Fitters; however, gas fitting is not a designated trade in Saskatchewan. UA local 12 Boston is still called "Plumbers and Gas Fitters" and I believe (though I may be wrong) Gas Fitter is an official trade in Massachusettes.


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