# old cast iron



## kiddplum (Feb 7, 2010)

had a job yesterday that required cutting into a 4 inch cast iron drain line to install a cleanout tee house trap was xh rest of the pipe not sure felt thin used my ratchet cutter gave it a couple of partial rotations as i was tightening down to try and score the pipe still ended up crushing it ended up using my 4 1/2 grinder with cut off wheel to clean it up i have heard some use a band saw how does the blade hold up cutting cast iron? what do you guys prefer ? not only was this stuff thin it was really under sized i have worked with xh most cast around here is sv but this seemed even thinner had to use a 4 band nh to make the connection did they make another weight of pipe at one time? pipe was located in an old coal cellar is it possible that over the years the coal may have had an effect on it?


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

I usually use an angle grinder with a diamond blade, cuts through like butter. Couldn't really understand what else you were saying.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Was it orangeburg possible? That can almost seem like old rotted cast iron if you've never seen it before. It was basically made of tar paper and would definately crush if you tried to use ratchet cutters on it.


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## kiddplum (Feb 7, 2010)

*old cast iron*

wasnt orangeberg ive dealt with that didnt realize a diamond wheel would cut cast iron


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Any time it's a critical cut on cast iron I always use a sawsall! Lennox metal bladesfigure 2-3 per cut, but it beats crushing or splitting and having to break a wall or floor to get to the next possible place.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Angel grinder with metal cutting blade $3.00 a piece at the hardware. Followed up with recip if need be. 

Did some cutting today with angel grinder on cast. Like butter.


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> I usually use an angle grinder with a diamond blade, cuts through like butter. Couldn't really understand what else you were saying.


Never tried with diamond blade, will try next time.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Angle grinders are great if you are in a concrete and steel building however in the real world with fire concerns I tend to favor the sawsall!


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

I've had the same diamond blade for years (probably atleast 8) and I cut a lot of cast iron. It's like butter:thumbsup:


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Indie said:


> Angel grinder with metal cutting blade $3.00 a piece at the hardware. Followed up with recip if need be.
> 
> Did some cutting today with angel grinder on cast. Like butter.


When you finished cutting with your "angel grinder" did you praise the heavens? :laughing:


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

U666A said:


> When you finished cutting with your "angel grinder" did you praise the heavens? :laughing:


Actually I did. 

Dang you autocorrect. 

I meant to post pictures of the drain I had to remove deck boards and then busy concrete.


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## Piper34 (Oct 10, 2011)

Sounds like Chinese pipe grinder definitely the tool with brittle castiron I don't have the patience to sawzall cast iron although it will work and I have done it


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## TerryO (Oct 12, 2012)

Lennox Diamond abrasive saws all blade. Cuts cast iron and clay tile like butter. Not cheap $14-$18 a blade depending where you get time but usually you can get 5-6 cuts out of each blade.

Terry Ohlmann / www.ActionAirPlumbing.com


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Porta band will go through it a lot faster than a grinder or a sawzall, and with a 14 TPI blade at the right speed you will get well over a hundred cuts with it.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> I usually use an angle grinder with a diamond blade, cuts through like butter. Couldn't really understand what else you were saying.


That's how I do it. Or with the quiky saw with diamonds and Loosiy in the sky. Lol


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Porta band will go through it a lot faster than a grinder or a sawzall, and with a 14 TPI blade at the right speed you will get well over a hundred cuts with it.


I believe IlPlumber feels the same way.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

All my cast iron is in the ground, we cut it with a grinder.

May have to make the final cut with a sawzall.

Regular sawzall blades are cheaper and better in the long run, I have tried the blades from Lennox and Milwaukee for Cast.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> That's how I do it. Or with the quiky saw with diamonds and Loosiy in the sky. Lol


 I'm reading Lucy in The Sky....


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Was it really about LSD ???


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Good morning rj lol. Y the hell am I up??? O yea I was snoring and the wife woke me.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Was it really about LSD ???


 At first the pulic thought it was related to LSD during the Beatlina manic... turned out was John Lennon's 1st son's creative thought with the teacher's supposly(sp) nae, Lucy... so listen to the song and correct me if I'm wrong.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Good morning rj lol. Y the hell am I up??? O yea I was snoring and the wife woke me.


 Confused... u woke up why??? U were snoring and so what did she do to stop. It? Wake ya up to be in the Zoner???


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Yea. Wake up your snoring loud as hell she said and now I'm up and tossing on the sofa but the cats with me purring like crazy I'm only 34 if I snore this soon then what when I'm 60. I hate getting old.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Pet me is what she's saying. From one bossy female to another. Lol. Sorry to hyjack.


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## kiddplum (Feb 7, 2010)

thanks for all the replies always great to hear what others are using and what works :thumbsup: as always i appreciate the humor found within this forum not good to take ourselves so seriously all the time
all that talk about the Beatles makes me want to get the old record player going


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Always where a dust mask when cutting cast and prep the area as it will leave rust stains everywhere. What I sometimes have to do on cast because of the raised letters or bad casting is use a fernco and use the shield and bands from a shielded couplingon that fernco. The rubber on the shielded coupling just isn't thick enough.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

gear junkie said:


> Always where a dust mask when cutting cast and prep the area as it will leave rust stains everywhere. What I sometimes have to do on cast because of the raised letters or bad casting is use a fernco and use the shield and bands from a shielded couplingon that fernco. The rubber on the shielded coupling just isn't thick enough.


Are you talking about a Sheerband made by Dallas Specialties.

Looks like a Fernco style with a metal band in the middle?


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Or a no hub coupling. 

No hubs have very thin rubber compared to ferncos.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Or a no hub coupling. 

No hubs have very thin rubber compared to ferncos.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Or a no hub coupling.
> 
> No hubs have very thin rubber compared to ferncos.


I have seen those, never used them. Look very cheap and poorly designed, Plus we can't use them underground in Texas.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I have never really understood how no-hub bands ever gained approval. They just reek of cheap. I know many have lasted for a long time but still...WTH were they thinking? Orangeburg has lasted a long time as well. 

And what are we thinking as tradesmen? Old-timers piss and moan about Uponor pipe being the downfall of our craft when it is no more biodegradable than a styrofoam cup. 

Then we bless CI as holy when a commercial building is assembled with a bunch of hose clamps around rubber that is half the thickness of a bibb washer.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> I have never really understood how no-hub bands ever gained approval. They just reek of cheap. I know many have lasted for a long time but still...WTH were they thinking? Orangeburg has lasted a long time as well.
> 
> And what are we thinking as tradesmen? Old-timers piss and moan about Uponor pipe being the downfall of our craft when it is no more biodegradable than a styrofoam cup.
> 
> Then we bless CI as holy when a commercial building is assembled with a bunch of hose clamps around rubber that is half the thickness of a bibb washer.


Agreed :thumbsup:


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> I have never really understood how no-hub bands ever gained approval. They just reek of cheap. I know many have lasted for a long time but still...WTH were they thinking? Orangeburg has lasted a long time as well.
> 
> And what are we thinking as tradesmen? Old-timers piss and moan about Uponor pipe being the downfall of our craft when it is no more biodegradable than a styrofoam cup.
> 
> Then we bless CI as holy when a commercial building is assembled with a bunch of hose clamps around rubber that is half the thickness of a bibb washer.


:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

I would never own a house piped in Cast Iron, PVC all the way for me.

Cast under a slab is nightmare waiting to happen and it will happen and the customer will be paying about 20K to get it fixed....


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

TallCoolOne said:


> I would never own a house piped in Cast Iron, PVC all the way for me.
> 
> Cast under a slab is nightmare waiting to happen and it will happen and the customer will be paying about 20K to get it fixed....



A newer home piped in cast iron and L copper would outlive any of us. Sure, if you bought one that was built 80-100 years ago you can expect problems, but take into consideration the longevity of cast iron. 

I dug up cast iron the other day that has been under the ground for over 60 years minimum, probably closer to 80, and it was structurally sound, even while beating on it with a hammer. 

Since pvc is no more than 40 years old, for regular installation we have no idea what it will be like when it is aged 80 plus years. Yeah, maybe it will be fine, but then again, maybe it will break down and be in worse condition. 

If it were at all practical or affordable I would gladly build a new home with cast iron and L copper. Lead poured joints for cast. 

Today's fixtures will never last like fixtures and faucets of old, you can plan on having to replace them in 20 years or less. That is the real problem home owners face, not the piping in the walls or slab.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

If I had my choice... Hub cast and galvanized :whistling2:


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

Indie said:


> A newer home piped in cast iron and L copper would outlive any of us.


Not in my area. Cooper is the best.

Cast Iron you will be lucky to get 30 years, after 50 it is done.

PVC will last much much longer and have a much smoother surface for water flow.

I will estimate I have worked on at least 3,000 plus houses in D/FW area doing sanitary slab leaks.....


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

TallCoolOne said:


> Not in my area. Cooper is the best.
> 
> Cast Iron you will be lucky to get 30 years, after 50 it is done.
> 
> ...



Okay, then its a regional preference. Because around here there are many homes over a 100 years old with cast iron that is still function just fine. 

It all comes down to how long a plumbing system should last. Really what else lasts more than 30 years without maintenance in a home? Framing - Foundation - Plumbing

When compared to the rest of a home we have awfully big expectations for the plumbing system.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Indie said:


> Okay, then its a regional preference. Because around here there are many homes over a 100 years old with cast iron that is still function just fine.
> 
> It all comes down to how long a plumbing system should last. Really what else lasts more than 30 years without maintenance in a home? Framing - Foundation - Plumbing
> 
> When compared to the rest of a home we have awfully big expectations for the plumbing system.


 Watch out when you have consedinng(sp) furance or boiler going into cast iron drain pipe!


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

rjbphd said:


> Watch out when you have condensing(sp) furnace or boiler going into cast iron drain pipe!


I'm not plumbing with cast iron. :laughing: Just making a point about the durability and longevity of cast iron.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

In my area you get about 50 yrs on cast iron. Several areas around here in about 15 yrs you can touch the copper and it will leak through the walls were you touch. It's cool to watch but a pain to repair.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

2" cast is a joke. Get 50 years out if it here and your lucky. 4" will last longer, but if I was a betting man I'd take pressure sch 40 PVC over cast for longevity and less blockages.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

Will said:


> 2" cast is a joke. Get 50 years out if it here and your lucky. 4" will last longer, but if I was a betting man I'd take pressure sch 40 PVC over cast for longevity and less blockages.


For sure

I agree 2" Cast Iron is a joke. How many kitchen lines you seen with the bottom out, too many in my career......


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

A lot. All the liquid plumber and acid these people use. I had one they used the foaming cleaner. I had to cut out a long section it looked like concrete in it. You couldn't chisel it out. They wonder why it rots.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Will said:


> 2" cast is a joke. Get 50 years out if it here and your lucky. 4" will last longer, but if I was a betting man I'd take pressure sch 40 PVC over cast for longevity and less blockages.


The CI under slabs on homes in central Oklahoma built in the 70's is falling apart just about as fast as it was installed.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

It's s


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

U666A said:


> :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


My hypocrisy has no bounds. :laughing:


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

It's so weird to hear these comments I know we have good water and dirt but I never realized how bad others have it. I have seen ci systems that are well over 75 years going strong. The problems I see have more to do with proper support or building shifting and water erosion (we have all seen what a long standing drip in a cast iron tub will do to the enamel and then the metal, I'm sure pvc will not hold up better to erosion) 
As for no hub couplings the only failures I have seen were due to improper installation. 

As for carbonic acid produced by heating equipment, it should be neutralized regardless of the type of piping being used (at least according to my code)


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> It's so weird to hear these comments I know we have good water and dirt but I never realized how bad others have it. I have seen ci systems that are well over 75 years going strong. The problems I see have more to do with proper support or building shifting and water erosion (we have all seen what a long standing drip in a cast iron tub will do to the enamel and then the metal, I'm sure pvc will not hold up better to erosion)
> As for no hub couplings the only failures I have seen were due to improper installation.
> 
> As for carbonic acid produced by heating equipment, it should be neutralized regardless of the type of piping being used (at least according to my code)



I think alot of it has to do with that your piping is supporting off framing and that you can get to it and make repairs to it. The cast in Oklahoma(and Texas when I lived there) in under slabs. We have to bust up concrete slabs to make the repairs and it ain't cheap to do that. PVC is 100 times better.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Will said:


> I think alot of it has to do with that your piping is supporting off framing and that you can get to it and make repairs to it. The cast in Oklahoma(and Texas when I lived there) in under slabs. We have to bust up concrete slabs to make the repairs and it ain't cheap to do that. PVC is 100 times better.


Maybe the quality of pipe as well. There is a lot of CI in Heritage Hills pushing 100 years old that is just fine.


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## TerryO (Oct 12, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> Maybe the quality of pipe as well. There is a lot of CI in Heritage Hills pushing 100 years old that is just fine.


Yep, some of the cast from the '70's was sorry. Then again so were the cars. Really sad years for American quality.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> Maybe the quality of pipe as well. There is a lot of CI in Heritage Hills pushing 100 years old that is just fine.


We dont have many house here that have 100 year old pipe, if it is then it is pier and beam. Seems like I rarely work or see house older than built in the 60's to 70's, when i do a hydrostatic leak odd are they have a sanitary leak.

It seems to be certain areas of each town, we call them foundation alley. Always having houses lifted in these area.

I have repaired so many sanitary slab leaks in my career, I would venture to say I have made at close to 10,000 jackhammer holes in house to make CI repairs.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Will said:


> I think alot of it has to do with that your piping is supporting off framing and that you can get to it and make repairs to it. The cast in Oklahoma(and Texas when I lived there) in under slabs. We have to bust up concrete slabs to make the repairs and it ain't cheap to do that. PVC is 100 times better.


Alot of house drainage is located under the basement cement floor and holds up just fine. I don't understand what makes replacing pvc cost less? You still need to excavate, or is it that you think pvc will last longer? 
(I don't know the answer but water is corrosive and erosive and will wear down glass even though it's smooth, I don't think pvc is less resistant to erosion than ci) 

I have a real issue with pvc and pitch, if you have a straight run horizontal and then you go vertical the only way to have pitch and to have a straight riser is to put stress on pipe and fitting or to have the fitting glued with pitch which would mean an improperly glued fitting as the glue would be thin on one side 

Ci hub or no hub has a lot more flexibility than pvc and I trust it underground because even with the best of preparation especially on new construction I would expect some settling and the ci won't snap like pvc would. 

Also I'm biased and hate PVC, I think it is harder to install (lighter doesn't mean easier) and harder to repair (without those horrible ci couplings).


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## phishfood (Nov 18, 2012)

I did a repair on a wiped lead joint to a lead closet bend earlier this year. The wiped joint was gone. I cut it back and transitioned to PVC. 

The cast iron pipe was in great shape, not rotted out on the inside, not brittle. I have seen some really ratty cast that was a lot younger, though.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> Alot of house drainage is located under the basement cement floor and holds up just fine. I don't understand what makes replacing pvc cost less? You still need to excavate, or is it that you think pvc will last longer?
> (I don't know the answer but water is corrosive and erosive and will wear down glass even though it's smooth, I don't think pvc is less resistant to erosion than ci)
> 
> I have a real issue with pvc and pitch, if you have a straight run horizontal and then you go vertical the only way to have pitch and to have a straight riser is to put stress on pipe and fitting or to have the fitting glued with pitch which would mean an improperly glued fitting as the glue would be thin on one side
> ...


I wish you could be with me and see what we have down here. Cast Iron suxs, it's a joke in my area. I have never seen a house built after 1983 that had Cast iron.

I have seen a fair share built in the 70's with PVC.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

There's are ton of cast iron raditors that are over 100 years old... we're still talking plumbing??


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I carried a bunch up to high third floors many a time....in my younger days.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

stillaround said:


> I carried a bunch up to high third floors many a time....in my younger days.


Ugh... Built a 54 story Hilton in Niagara Falls and the construction elevators weren't installed til they poured the 24th floor. I don't want to think about carrying cast up the stairs! 3" & 4"... I shouldn't complain about, 6" just plain sucks!


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

I strap it to the boom lift or sweet talk the crane operator to help me out.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I strap it to the boom lift or sweet talk the crane operator to help me out.


The crane did the san/storm/vtr chase for us all the way up... Ain't NOBODY humpin' 15" CI up no freaking stairs!


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> Alot of house drainage is located under the basement cement floor and holds up just fine. I don't understand what makes replacing pvc cost less? You still need to excavate, or is it that you think pvc will last longer?
> (I don't know the answer but water is corrosive and erosive and will wear down glass even though it's smooth, I don't think pvc is less resistant to erosion than ci)
> 
> I have a real issue with pvc and pitch, if you have a straight run horizontal and then you go vertical the only way to have pitch and to have a straight riser is to put stress on pipe and fitting or to have the fitting glued with pitch which would mean an improperly glued fitting as the glue would be thin on one side
> ...


Cast iron sure is the bees knees. Holds up real well. So well, in fact, most of the cast in these pictures I could crush with my hands it is so rotten. Never met rotten PVC or ABS.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> Alot of house drainage is located under the basement cement floor and holds up just fine. I don't understand what makes replacing pvc cost less? You still need to excavate, or is it that you think pvc will last longer?
> (I don't know the answer but water is corrosive and erosive and will wear down glass even though it's smooth, I don't think pvc is less resistant to erosion than ci)
> 
> I have a real issue with pvc and pitch, if you have a straight run horizontal and then you go vertical the only way to have pitch and to have a straight riser is to put stress on pipe and fitting or to have the fitting glued with pitch which would mean an improperly glued fitting as the glue would be thin on one side
> ...



Cast Iron snaps, PVC won't. If you got the piping in such a bind that it will snap the pipe, it's installation error.

As for erosion of PVC, can't say any thing about it as Ive never seen it myself. 

Main drawl back for PVC is it does get brittle over time. Thin-wall or Cell-core PVC will not last, but Sch. 40 pressure, installed correctly I can lasting longer than a 100 years.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Indie said:


> A newer home piped in cast iron and L copper would outlive any of us. Sure, if you bought one that was built 80-100 years ago you can expect problems, but take into consideration the longevity of cast iron.
> 
> I dug up cast iron the other day that has been under the ground for over 60 years minimum, probably closer to 80, and it was structurally sound, even while beating on it with a hammer.
> 
> ...


I have worked on jobs where no yard trap is installed and the amount of sewer gas contacting the interior top of the cast iron, had rotten out the top of the pipe in 40 years or so, seen it more then once, to where the standard weight has opened up along the length of the pipe. PVC all the way for me, it seems as though PVC is less susceptible to clogging also,(bad points heat and UV exposure).


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

GAN said:


> I have worked on jobs where no yard trap is installed and the amount of sewer gas contacting the interior top of the cast iron, had rotten out the top of the pipe in 40 years or so, seen it more then once, to where the standard weight has opened up along the length of the pipe. PVC all the way for me, it seems as though PVC is less susceptible to clogging also,(bad points heat and UV exposure).


I have never seen a trap in sewer yard or main line.

Funny how things are plumbed so differently around the country.....


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

The one thing that will keep cast iron around is the crush strength . Pvc can't with stand crushing pressure anywhere near what cast iron can. But for everything else plastic is king.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

I wish the house I live in was plumbed in cast, at least the vertical sections... Someone flushes on the second floor and it sounds like a jet taking off in my basement bedroom...


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

U666A said:


> I wish the house I live in was plumbed in cast, at least the vertical sections... Someone flushes on the second floor and it sounds like a jet taking off in my basement bedroom...


You're right, I forgot about the Quiet Pipe. It's been to long since I have run cast iron.:yes:


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

justme said:


> You're right, I forgot about the Quiet Pipe. It's been to long since I have run cast iron.:yes:


Yup, huge difference! :thumbup:


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

TallCoolOne said:


> I have never seen a trap in sewer yard or main line.
> 
> Funny how things are plumbed so differently around the country.....


Everything here is house trap, fresh air inlet and vent through roof. 
And I've seen where the fresh air inlet has been killed and the moisture has eaten away the ci. 
Proper install all around cast iron is king (American not import huge difference) 

Also I'm used to hacks installing pvc, with incorrect pitch and improper support. 

What interests me in this conversation would be to test erosion properties of both. 

Also no one has a problem with forcing pitch on pvc? 

I can cut ci faster (and cleaner) , needs less hangers (in my opinion that is most of the job), don't hear the sh*t on the way down, isn't combustible, and can create pitch without weakness in glued joint or stress on piping. 

Granted our soil doesn't eat it and our codes requiring fresh air and roof vents which keeps the rusting away


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

I have used a hanger for sewer pipe. always bedded in the ground.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

I've never had a issue with pitch putting stress on the glue joint.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

504Plumber said:


> Cast iron sure is the bees knees. Holds up real well. So well, in fact, most of the cast in these pictures I could crush with my hands it is so rotten. Never met rotten PVC or ABS.


I know those tunnel replacements are very very good money, but I don't miss them at all lmao:no:.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Will said:


> Cast Iron snaps, PVC won't.


Yes it will, that is why they had to come up with expansion joints for it.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Will said:


> I've never had a issue with pitch putting stress on the glue joint.


If I have a 40' horizontal run of 4" pvc schedule 40 with a 1/4" per foot pitch then that ell going vertical would be far from straight, how would you strap it going up without either glueing the ell crooked which by definition would mean an improper glued joint or putting stress on the pvc ell or pipe (probably the ell at the center)? 

Forgive my ignorance I rarely use any pvc, usually just for heating or cooling condensate lines


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> If I have a 40' horizontal run of 4" pvc schedule 40 with a 1/4" per foot pitch then that ell going vertical would be far from straight, how would you strap it going up without either glueing the ell crooked which by definition would mean an improper glued joint or putting stress on the pvc ell or pipe (probably the ell at the center)?
> 
> Forgive my ignorance I rarely use any pvc, usually just for heating or cooling condensate lines


The pipe is made to withstand a 5-10% deflection over a 20' length.If the joints are properly glued and tested to 10' of head pressure and it holds where's the problem.



http://www.jmeagle.com/plastic-pipe/faq.html#vertical-deflection


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Learnt something new thanks

My question is with my previous example if the horizontal was being bedded down how would you "bend" the pipe and keep it in place? and awouldn't I loose my pitch as it would need to arc down to leave the ell going vertical straight


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

If you were to run 40' of 4" CI what would you do to set your 90 perfectly level when you go vertical with your stack? You would have to cheat the fitting out of the band just a little or you would level out your stack with the band on top of the 90. Thats no different than leveling a PVC stack on a horizontal to vertical turn. Pvc is very flexible with CI you make adjustments with the bands. As for the erosion well I would be willing to bet that plastic would win hands down. Once cast iron loses its coating on the inside it is only a matter of time before it becomes rusty flakes.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Yes it will, that is why they had to come up with expansion joints for it.


And what idiot would install PVC with such carelessness that it would snap? If its penetrating a concrete footing it needs to be sleeved. If its penetrating through the concrete slab it needs to be insulated.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

Do Ya'll notice we have a bunch of southern boys chatting about CI vs PVC.

Never heard anyone from Arkansas pipe in

I just wish they could learn to read and write in that area


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

I noticed. Ci PVC. I put in what the specs call for. I prefer PVC any day tho liter faster and doesn't rust it's a no brainer Only time we use cast is in hospitals airports and open plenums


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Mostly everyone except Chicago, New York City, or San Francisco are using PVC or ABS now unless it's a multi story building or the specs call for cast.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Will said:


> Mostly everyone except Chicago, New York City, or San Francisco are using PVC now unless it's a multi story building or the specs call for cast.



AZ uses ABS for res and CI nohub for commercial. At least Southern AZ.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I noticed. Ci PVC. I put in what the specs call for. I prefer PVC any day tho liter faster and doesn't rust it's a no brainer Only time we use cast is in hospitals airports and open plenums


Why would you use an inferior product in hospitals and airports?

I would think that they would want those structures to be built with the highest quality materials, they are designed for a longer life span then most structures.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> Why would you use an inferior product in hospitals and airports?
> 
> I would think that they would want those structures to be built with the highest quality materials, they are designed for a longer life span then most structures.


Fire and smoke issue in commercial settings. Is what I am thinking.....


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

TallCoolOne said:


> Do Ya'll notice we have a bunch of southern boys chatting about CI vs PVC.
> 
> Never heard anyone from Arkansas pipe in
> 
> I just wish they could learn to read and write in that area


Wow, really?


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

TallCoolOne said:


> Fire and smoke issue in commercial settings. Is what I am thinking.....


I was expecting a better answer like corporate lobby / crooked govt. Or the architect fee is a percent of total building cost so they call for the bigger $$$ product. 
But if it's a fire risk Then it should not be allowed in multi residential buildings and the like (certainly anywhere that fire stopping is required)


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

504Plumber said:


> Wow, really?


R u from Arkasas/


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> I was expecting a better answer like corporate lobby / crooked govt. Or the architect fee is a percent of total building cost so they call for the bigger $$$ product.
> But if it's a fire risk Then it should not be allowed in multi residential buildings and the like (certainly anywhere that fire stopping is required)


It is a fire issue. The smoke from PVC is toxic so no PVC in open plenum a/c systems or mist schools hospitals or airports. Apartments are PVC here This is what I've been taught. I mite be off a bit. But I have done all stated above


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> It is a fire issue. The smoke from PVC is toxic so no PVC in open plenum a/c systems or mist schools hospitals or airports. Apartments are PVC here This is what I've been taught. I mite be off a bit. But I have done all stated above


Ive heard that argument, and imo it's a buch of malarkey. All smoke is toxic, so is the fire, or when the fire burns away all of the oxygen.....


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

Will said:


> Ive heard that argument, and imo it's a buch of malarkey. All smoke is toxic, so is the fire, or when the fire burns away all of the oxygen.....


Agreed. What about the fone and data lines in the walls. What about Electrical in the wall.

I also call BS on the Fire stuff too........


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Yep if a fire is gong, theoretically you are egressing. You can install PVC in open Plenum systems BUT it must be fire wrapped, any data cable, fire alarm cable, etc must be "Plenum rated" or be in EMT conduit, all framing and bracing in open Plenum systems must also be fire rated wood or steel.

There is also some great fire stopping material, putty pads, crush collars, ye fire plugs, etc, for floor penetrations in applications where the piping is not in a Plenum.

Smoke systems for commercial applications are installed in the return air and if the CFM is over 5,000 I believe they must be in the forced air side also that lock out the blowers when smoke is detected so fumes will not be distributed throughout the building. you will also find out that any "corridor" if mandated to be rated will not have penetrations into it as a fire area which will also inhibit the transfer of fumes to a means of egress. 

One thing building supervisors fail to do in some instances is keep the "rated fire doors" which are Mandated by code to keep closed, they disable the self closers with door stops which makes a fire rated corridor a mute point no mater whether PVC is a building or not. Or they do the same with "Mag Lock" doors which are in place in hospitals and nursing homes to isolate fire areas.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

TallCoolOne said:


> Agreed. What about the fone and data lines in the walls. What about Electrical in the wall.
> 
> I also call BS on the Fire stuff too........



I have heard that fire can travel between floors by PVC piping, and that I could believe, but the toxic fumes I'm not buying. Alot of other stuff will be putting off deadly fumes in a building too.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Will said:


> I have heard that fire can travel between floors by PVC piping, and that I could believe, but the toxic fumes I'm not buying. Alot of other stuff will be putting off deadly fumes in a building too.


There was a thread recently debunking the toxic PVC thing. To tired to search. Maybe later.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Will said:


> I have heard that fire can travel between floors by PVC piping, and that I could believe, but the toxic fumes I'm not buying. Alot of other stuff will be putting off deadly fumes in a building too.


Yep it can travel. That's why you consider "crush collars or cast in place fire stops", there is also a Wye that on the branch has a fire stopping plug that will let loose and drop to establish the fire rating at the floor level should PVC burn away.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

I am gonna go out on a limb here. But I think if a building it will have carpet, furniture, blinds, plants, desks and lots of paper.

If a fire happens I think the PVC would be one of the last things to worry about causing issues........


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