# I actually had to do a caulked joint today.



## Protech

I actually had to do a caulked joint today.


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## ILPlumber

Daddy like


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## Ron

Looks like it was fun.

Nice Job PT


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## greenscoutII

Way cool. I'm actually jealous, I've never done one.........


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## LEAD INGOT

Way to caulk that mutha'. I miss the lead days. Something about the whole process just works for me. I may move to Chicago.


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## Pipe Rat

How were you able to yarn and caulk under that branch? Looks like you used a center caulking iron instead of an in and out.  

Just messin wit' ya. I like it. :thumbup:


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## Protech

I don't own a full set of irons, nor do i normally do these. I used a small cold chisel at an angle at the 2" middle leg of the tee.

This was also done under a slab through a 1 foot diameter hole and the hub was roughly 1.5' under the slab.



Pipe Rat said:


> How were you able to yarn and caulk under that branch? Looks like you used a center caulking iron instead of an in and out.
> 
> Just messin wit' ya. I like it. :thumbup:


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## Protech

The lead was melted down from scraps I've collected from tear outs. I just melted it down in the ladle and scraped of the floaties.


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## easttexasplumb

I have done a few closet flanges before, and from time to time solder on brass flanges to lead closet bends. I have never see anyone do a horizontal caulked joint before, anyone got their running rope ready.


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## Pipe Rat

I got one..........somewhere :laughing:


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## plumbpro

:notworthy:


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## greenscoutII

Protech said:


> The lead was melted down from scraps I've collected from tear outs. I just melted it down in the ladle and scraped of the floaties.


Wow. Plumbing lead used for plumbing? Most of what we cut out gets cast into bullets.:laughing:


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## Pipe Rat

Tip of the day......... If you find yourself needing to caulk a horizontal joint and you don't have your running rope handy, Plumbers putty will work in a pinch. :yes:


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## accobra88

For the record ... there is a such thing as an inside and outside iron to trim that joint ... you tap it along the outer edge and inner edge to do it correctly. My advise next time is to put a spool piece in the hub first and then attache a no hub cplg to it. Not sure how you yarned and caulked under the branch of the tee ...

my 2 cents.

Ron


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## Pipe Rat

greenscoutII said:


> Wow. Plumbing lead used for plumbing? Most of what we cut out gets cast into bullets.:laughing:


Giant Mississippi river catfish sinkers here. Home of the world record 130 something pound Blue Cat. :thumbup:


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## greenscoutII

Pipe Rat said:


> Tip of the day......... If you find yourself needing to caulk a horizontal joint and you don't have your running rope handy, Plumbers putty will work in a pinch. :yes:


I must humbly admit my ignorance........ What is a running rope?


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## LEAD INGOT

On the record, I dont like to see no hub fittings caulked into hubs. Off the record, it's better than a ty seal.


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## greenscoutII

Pipe Rat said:


> Giant Mississippi river catfish sinkers here. Home of the world record 130 something pound Blue Cat. :thumbup:


Nice! At 130 pounds, are you sure you don't _need_ bullets?:laughing:


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## LEAD INGOT

greenscoutII said:


> I must humbly admit my ignorance........ What is a running rope?


 It is a rope you soak in in oil and clamp around horizontal cast joints, for pouring. Now ask me what a gate is.


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## accobra88

How do you handle a wet joint so you can pour the lead?


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## LEAD INGOT

accobra88 said:


> How do you handle a wet joint so you can pour the lead?


 look away:whistling2:


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## greenscoutII

LEAD INGOT said:


> It is a rope you soak in in oil and clamp around horizontal cast joints, for pouring. Now ask me what a gate is.


Ok makes sense. Keeps the lead in the joint...

I'm game.... What is a gate?

I really am ashamed to admit I know almost nothing about lead joints. The only cast iron I've ever messed with is no-hub or occasionally using a rubber bushing to transition from CI hub to PVC.


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## Pipe Rat

Running rope


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## LEAD INGOT

greenscoutII said:


> Ok makes sense. Keeps the lead in the joint...
> 
> I'm game.... What is a gate?
> 
> I really am ashamed to admit I know almost nothing about lead joints. The only cast iron I've ever messed with is no-hub or occasionally using a rubber bushing to transition from CI hub to PVC.


 the gate is the top, over pour of lead on a horizontal pour. It needs to be chisaled off, and caulked.


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## Lifer

I know i am gonna tip off a few of you umm.. older folks but have none of you used PC4?... I am 33 been plumbing since i was 19 and have never needed to pour a lead joint .. 

Not that the lead work does not look quite impressive but ... between all the things that could go wrong and the whole handeling of lead thing ...

Just a young fellas point of view ... I live in a historic community where the average home in well in the 80 yrs old plus range i run into this quite often ... where a Fernco will not do it's PC4 for me ...

Lifer


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## Protech

I needed to get low with that branch line for adequate fall. If I had done it any other way, I wouldn't of had the fall needed.

Sometimes, ya have to make the best out of a s*itty situation.




LEAD INGOT said:


> On the record, *I dont like to see no hub fittings caulked into hubs.* Off the record, it's better than a ty seal.


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## 1703

LEAD INGOT said:


> the gate is the top, over pour of lead on a horizontal pour. It needs to be chisaled off, and caulked.


With a gate chisel. Or screwdriver.:whistling2:

You guys didn't have to pour a joint to get your license?


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## Pipe Rat

I dont remember if I had to pour a joint but I had to wipe one :thumbup:


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## Protech

Could you explain how that's done? I've always wanted to try that (not that I'll ever need it).




Pipe Rat said:


> I dont remember if I had to pour a joint but I had to wipe one :thumbup:


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## LEAD INGOT

Protech said:


> Could you explain how that's done? I've always wanted to try that (not that I'll ever need it).


 Very low heat, a stick of bar lead, a good thick wiping cloth, a candle if you need it, and a crapload of patience.


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## LEAD INGOT

Lifer said:


> I know i am gonna tip off a few of you umm.. older folks but have none of you used PC4?... I am 33 been plumbing since i was 19 and have never needed to pour a lead joint ..
> 
> Not that the lead work does not look quite impressive but ... between all the things that could go wrong and the whole handeling of lead thing ...
> 
> Just a young fellas point of view ... I live in a historic community where the average home in well in the 80 yrs old plus range i run into this quite often ... where a Fernco will not do it's PC4 for me ...
> 
> Lifer


 Does anyone ever really need to pour a lead joint? No, it's just fun.


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## Pipe Rat

LEAD INGOT said:


> Very low heat, a stick of bar lead, a good thick wiping cloth, a candle if you need it, and a crapload of patience.


We used a ladle and a cloth........ that crap burns if your not careful. Bar solder and a torch is the new fangled way LI :laughing:


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## Protech

Do you just pour some 40/60 molten solder onto a oiled rag and smear it onto the joint area? Do you get the solder well over the flowing emperature or just above melt temperature so that it's just barley a liquid but not actually flowing yet?


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## Pipe Rat

Anyone ever wipe a trap into a lead arm from scratch? (ie: brand new never soldered previously) Heres how I was taught ..........cut your lead pipe maybe a half inch from the wall then cut a circle of sheet lead to fit around the pipe, against the wall and roughly 3/4" bigger diameter all around. Then take your drift plug and swedge out your pipe. Finish swedging your pipe with a ball peen hammer flat against your lead ring.
Install trap.

Now clean it all up with a shave hook apply some candle wax. Then take a ladle with your solder mixture and flick the molten metal onto the joint with a popsicle stick, wipe around with cloth...........repeat until joint is hot and pasty enough to finish off nice and slick with your wiping cloth.

Now we're talking. :thumbsup: Home owners and handymen didn't dare venture there. :thumbup:


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## Pipe Rat

Protech said:


> Do you just pour some 40/60 molten solder onto a oiled rag and smear it onto the joint area? Do you get the solder well over the flowing emperature or just above melt temperature so that it's just barley a liquid but not actually flowing yet?


Protech I am no expert I only did this in class, in fact we made our own wiping cloths out of pillow ticking, I forgot what else we treated it with besides alot of candle wax. We folded them into a square the size of four fingers about ten layers thick.

We would pour with fully molten metal as this would heat the joint. Catch the molten metal at the bottom by cupping your cloth and wiping the metal around the joint or simply roll the joint if doing this on the bench.

After the joint is sufficiently hot just keep working the solder around until it cools to the proper pasty range and slick it off. :thumbup:


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## Ishmael

easttexasplumb said:


> I have done a few closet flanges before, and from time to time solder on brass flanges to lead closet bends. I have never see anyone do a horizontal caulked joint before, anyone got their running rope ready.


The last time I had to do one (about a year ago), I used lead wool rather than use a joint runner and molten lead. Worked really well.


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## greenscoutII

Hmmm... My boss still has all his leadin' tools, I think I'll ask him to show me how it's done if we're not too busy tomorrow...

He once told me that lead and oakum joined cast iron and wiped lead joints were already on their way out of use when he started plumbing 40 years ago. (at least in this part of the country)

I still want to learn though, even if it is old and out dated........


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## Tommy plumber

You guys didn't have to pour a joint to get your license?[/QUOTE]

Nope. Florida state exam has multiple choice and isometrics, no practical parts like up North.


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## Pipe Rat

Ishmael said:


> The last time I had to do one (about a year ago), I used lead wool rather than use a joint runner and molten lead. Worked really well.


Lead wool, PC4, silicone, latex, jb weld, grout etc.......... you all can talk to the hand :thumbdown:
I am either doin' it right or I ain't doin' it......I have me one of them thar professional reputations to uphold. I just don't have it in me to do that. Some people appreciate that some don't but thats how I roll. :wheelchair:


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## Ishmael

Pipe Rat said:


> Lead wool, PC4, silicone, latex, jb weld, grout etc.......... you all can talk to the hand :thumbdown:
> I am either doin' it right or I ain't doin' it......I have me one of them thar professional reputations to uphold. I just don't have it in me to do that. Some people appreciate that some don't but thats how I roll. :wheelchair:


Never tried any of the others, but lead wool has been in use since before 1920. When done properly, it's every bit as good (and durable) as a poured joint.


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## Pipe Rat

Ishmael said:


> Never tried any of the others, but lead wool has been in use since before 1920. When done properly, it's every bit as good (and durable) as a poured joint.


OMG  1920  I didn't realize they had hacks back then too. Sorry but no one can convince me lead wool packed into a joint was ever anymore than an early handyman approach. Our trade used to be an art but alas the times have changed. 

But I will still say no matter how materials and procedures change you still either have it or you don't. 

Smearing glue or lead wool :laughing: on a pipe does not a plumber make. :whistling2:


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## Ishmael

Pipe Rat said:


> OMG  1920  I didn't realize they had hacks back then too. Sorry but no one can convince me lead wool packed into a joint was ever anymore than an early handyman approach. Our trade used to be an art but alas the times have changed.
> 
> But I will still say no matter how materials and procedures change you still either have it or you don't.
> 
> Smearing glue or lead wool :laughing: on a pipe does not a plumber make. :whistling2:


 
:notworthy:


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## Pipe Rat

Ishmael said:


> :notworthy:


:laughing: Just messin with ya brother :laughing: Lead wool in itself I cannot judge you. I just know with all the easy cheesy plumbing products out there these days there are way to many "techs" out there that think they are plumbers. Not by my definition or neccessarily their fault, it's how they were taught. Again not picking on you, at least until I know more about you :laughing:


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## gladerunner

Up untill last year, all of our underground work was packed and poured CI. can use plastic now, but only residential. Still 90% of my work is castiron. No plastic past curb trap allowed. And if you have a wet joint to pour, saturate it with cutting oil before you pour. Did you know that there are still asbestoes joint runner made in Europe. One of my employees is from Albania and he got his cousin to send us a couple.


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## 1703

Pipe Rat said:


> Lead wool, PC4, silicone, latex, jb weld, grout etc.......... you all can talk to the hand :thumbdown:
> I am either doin' it right or I ain't doin' it......I have me one of them thar professional reputations to uphold. I just don't have it in me to do that. Some people appreciate that some don't but thats how I roll. :wheelchair:


 
While I do a gree with that, I have used lead wool a few times.

like when you cut out a 4" lead bend and the top of the 4" hub is jammed up against the subfloor.


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## RealLivePlumber

We still pack and pour once in a while. 

Lotta times, when replacing a galv laundry tray drain in the basement, with PVC. Way nicer than using a fernco an leaving a stub of galv in the bldg drain. 

We just did a job for a gc who rehabbed an old crib. All of the ci plumbing was torn out, except for a 4" combo leaving the basement. The hub of the pipe was sticking in the basement wall only about an inch. There was no other way to get on to it. We melted the combo out, and installed a 4 x 3 pvc caulking ferrule. 

When the plumbing inspector came in, and started in the basement, he saw it and asked if we did it. Proudly told him yes. He glanced around, handed me my white approval sticker, and promptly left.:thumbsup:

BTW, nice job on the joint, PT:yes:


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## RealLivePlumber

Oh yeah, quick tip for pouring a horizontal joint with pvc into ci.

When you pour the lead, the gate will leave a burn mark on the pvc after its cut off. I used to spray it with some white Kilz to cover it up. 

I cut a 3" wide strip of 4" 30 ga. duct, then slit it lengthwise. Then cut one end into a point (the shape of the gap left when the rope is clamped on.) Wrap it around the pipe, and slide it under the rope. This covers the pipe, and the protects it. No more burn mark!


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## Richard Hilliard

Had to pour a horizontal joint the other day and could not find my running rope. Brought out the putty and wrapped the hub with putty to keep the lead from falling out. The guys laugh at all my caulking irons. In Ohio I had to do this quite often, Florida not so much . It seems everyone loves the Fernocos for a connection. 

In Ohio the code used to be that caulking ferrules were necessary even with pvc or abs is that still the code? Here they are not necessary.


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## Protech

I would think pouring molten lead onto pvc would instantly melt the pipe. Never done it so I don't know.


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## Pipe Rat

Yes you can pour lead onto pvc pipe. Do not over heat the lead and let it cool before caulking. :yes:


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## RealLivePlumber

Here, caulking ferrulles are not required for pvc. You must use solid core Sch 40, no cell core.

You wanna pour it right before it solidifies, with pvc. It will only blacken the plastic. If you pour it too hot, it will deform it inside the hub, kinda egg shape it a little.


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## Richard Hilliard

*I actually had to do a caulked joint today*

Yep you have to be careful not to melt and deform the plastic. Cool the lead,I usually heat the lead and have a smoke while heating, out by the truck and walking it back into the home. Usually that is cool enough to pour.

The first couple of pvc joints I melted and learned.


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## greenscoutII

Wow, I wasn't aware that a guy could lead PVC. I've never even heard of it. Here, typically we'll use a rubber bushing to transition from a CI hub to PVC. What is the advantage of leading it in?

Not picking a fight, just genuinely curious....


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## Richard Hilliard

*I actually had to do a caulked joint today*

Depends on where I am at. I always have lead and oakum ,I do not always carry rubber doughnuts. Frankly here most guys have no clue if they are working on service weight or extra heavy cast and use the wrong dounuts.


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## plumjoe

http://content.answcdn.com/main/content/img/McGrawHill/atchitecture/f0057-01.png


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## Tommy plumber

Richard Hilliard said:


> Yep you have to be careful not to melt and deform the plastic. Cool the lead,I usually heat the lead and have a smoke while heating, out by the truck and walking it back into the home. Usually that is cool enough to pour.
> 
> The first couple of pvc joints I melted and learned.


 
I have never poured lead around PVC in cast iron, but I've seen the finished product. I wondered how the Pvc didn't melt when the molten lead was poured. Now I know. Thanks for the insight. :thumbsup:


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## DIZ

Richard Hilliard said:


> Depends on where I am at. I always have lead and oakum ,I do not always carry rubber doughnuts. Frankly here most guys have no clue if they are working on service weight or extra heavy cast and use the wrong dounuts.


 Love the can/usa duality doughnut spelling.


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## 422 plumber

I poured lead for a shower drain in a basement bath addition. The rubber donut came with the drain, but the customer is a pipefitter superintendent who appreciates the little things like that. I also used unistrut to hang the water pipes in the furnace room. He was tickled pink and said he would show off his "beautiful' plumbing to his fitter buddies.


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## stillaround

Is it bad to use a push gasket?.


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## 422 plumber

stillaround said:


> Is it bad to use a push gasket?.


No, since the customer bought he shower and drain, that's usually what I would have used, but since it was a T&M, with no time pressure, and I have all the tools, why not?


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## Tommy plumber

By the way Protech, good looking C.I. lead joint. That's one of the neat things about our trade, you get to do different things. Not the same thing day in and day out.

I don't think I could be a tile-setter. It's the same thing every single day, like assembly line work. That would get tedious and monotonous fast.


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