# sewer service question



## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

I have a job going we are fixing to have to run the sewer service. Fixtures there is 2 toilets, 5 sinks 1 mop sink.
Its about 730 feet to city main. The customer wants to run a 8" sewer line. I said no it wont work right because theres not enough flow to push solids that far in big pipe. I recommended staying with 4" thats what stubs out. Or, doing a lift station so we can run 2" keep the pipe size smaller for better pressure to push the waste. They do not want a lift station. I told them I would not warranty a 8" sewer if they insist on using it.
Am I wrong? Whats your thoughts? 

Two heads can be better than one


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

Plumberman911 said:


> I have a job going we are fixing to have to run the sewer service. Fixtures there is 2 toilets, 5 sinks 1 mop sink.
> Its about 730 feet to city main. The customer wants to run a 8" sewer line. I said no it wont work right because theres not enough flow to push solids that far in big pipe. I recommended staying with 4" thats what stubs out. Or, doing a lift station so we can run 2" keep the pipe size smaller for better pressure to push the waste. They do not want a lift station. I told them I would not warranty a 8" sewer if they insist on using it.
> Am I wrong? Whats your thoughts?
> 
> Two heads can be better than one


Is the sewer tie in deep enough to run 730ft of gravity fed sewer?! At the top of a mountain or what...

I wouldn't go with 8" unless they plan to build more houses on their land and use that to provide sewer and even then 8" would be pushing it.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Never ever install a pump system where gravity can be used. I don't think an inspector would let that pass here for the reason you gave.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

You are not wrong at all... Oversizing is almost as bad as undersizing.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

U666A said:


> You are not wrong at all... Oversizing is almost as bad as undersizing.


 Thats my thought. Two toilets will not pull solids that far without problems. Once it builds up in the line from that day forward it will always be a problem. 
I agree with the point usually that gravity is better than a pump for a few reasons. But its so far with so few DFU's


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Plumberman911 said:


> I have a job going we are fixing to have to run the sewer service. Fixtures there is 2 toilets, 5 sinks 1 mop sink.
> Its about 730 feet to city main. The customer wants to run a 8" sewer line. I said no it wont work right because theres not enough flow to push solids that far in big pipe. I recommended staying with 4" thats what stubs out. Or, doing a lift station so we can run 2" keep the pipe size smaller for better pressure to push the waste. They do not want a lift station. I told them I would not warranty a 8" sewer if they insist on using it.
> Am I wrong? Whats your thoughts?
> 
> Two heads can be better than one


You are not wrong, 8" isn't overkill it's just wrong! 4" is what they need 

End of story


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

504Plumber said:


> Is the sewer tie in deep enough to run 730ft of gravity fed sewer?! At the top of a mountain or what...
> 
> I wouldn't go with 8" unless they plan to build more houses on their land and use that to provide sewer and even then 8" would be pushing it.


 Its is a small wing they added onto a county clinic. That is the only fixtures that will ever be on that line. Fall to the main is a issue. 8" is half the fall


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

Your replies make me feel better, that I didnt tell them wrong. They one day will have to pressure flush it and it wont be me


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Well, if there isn't enough fall a forced main is your only choice, if I read that last post right.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

With the fixtures listed, if it was only a branch drain versus the SBD, it would be 3" here...


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

Gettinit said:


> Well, if there isn't enough fall a forced main is your only choice, if I read that last post right.


 there is for 8" and we would have to dig the main first to see about 4"


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

U666A said:


> With the fixtures listed, if it was only a branch drain versus the SBD, it would be 3" here...


 It would be 3" here to, but my journeyman ran 4". grrr. 3" carries 36 dfu. Im no ware close to that


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

I wouldnt walk away. I would just submit your bid and clearly state how your going to do it to code. People do change there minds. Sounds like a good job.


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Who's the plumber here dammit!?


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Nowhere at the road and at the building to get an invert?


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

89plumbum said:


> I wouldnt walk away. I would just submit your bid and clearly state how your going to do it to code. People do change there minds. Sounds like a good job.


 i cant walk away, im under contract. they have been kicking this around like a ball for 4 months. tomorrow we are setting fixtures and they still havent decided. sewer is under the whole plumbing job contract from ground up


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

Gettinit said:


> Nowhere at the road and at the building to get an invert?


 i dont understand the invert?


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Plumberman911 said:


> i dont understand the invert?


Inside bottom of pipe.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

If I were you, I would pay someone to use a transit and shot it before trying to do it on gravity if you are unsure.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

not that i know of


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Hope you got a bunch of cleaning outs going in


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

3 inch MAY have worked! That is a big maybe. But now if you can get fall and they are willing to pay for 8 inch go ahead and put it in. at 730' with 2 toilets I don't care if it's 4" or 12" it will be a consistent back up problem. BUT it is no problem with proper easy to find cleanout every 100'. Then it is just plain old maintenance and cost of doing buissness with that long of a run. they will need to keep you or a drain cleaner on speed dial. 

I would bid at least 2 two way cleanouts at 250 and 500 foot mark just for jetting ease


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

saysflushable said:


> 3 inch MAY have worked! That is a big maybe. But now if you can get fall and they are willing to pay for 8 inch go ahead and put it in. at 730' with 2 toilets I don't care if it's 4" or 12" it will be a consistent back up problem. BUT it is no problem with proper easy to find cleanout every 100'. Then it is just plain old maintenance and cost of doing buissness with that long of a run. they will need to keep you or a drain cleaner on speed dial.
> 
> I would bid at least 2 two way cleanouts at 250 and 500 foot mark just for jetting ease


Yup, I was only stating 3" to drive home the overkill idea. 3" requires double the slope as 4" here, which is a huge factor if the insert are tight.


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

U666A said:


> Yup, I was only stating 3" to drive home the overkill idea. 3" requires double the slope as 4" here, which is a huge factor if the insert are tight.


 You know maybe price wise a lift station with 2 inch may be the cheapest and best way to go.

will they let you run a line that far flat after a lift pit? heck just pipe costs and excatating cost savings would be huge.

I would still install plenty of cleanouts


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Co every 75' here.


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

Plumberman911 said:


> . They do not want a lift station. I told them I would not warranty a 8" sewer if they insist on using it.
> Am I wrong? Whats your thoughts?
> 
> Two heads can be better than one


 I would not warrenty any drain trouble they have no matter what. I would only warrenty proper install of what ever they want because nothing is good in this situation.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Plumberman911 said:


> I have a job going we are fixing to have to run the sewer service. Fixtures there is 2 toilets, 5 sinks 1 mop sink.
> Its about 730 feet to city main. The customer wants to run a 8" sewer line. I said no it wont work right because theres not enough flow to push solids that far in big pipe. I recommended staying with 4" thats what stubs out. Or, doing a lift station so we can run 2" keep the pipe size smaller for better pressure to push the waste. They do not want a lift station. I told them I would not warranty a 8" sewer if they insist on using it.
> Am I wrong? Whats your thoughts?
> 
> Two heads can be better than one


First things first, what they want takes a back seat to the mandates of the code and good workmanship.

The reality is up to and including 6" you will have to have 91-1/4" of fall. So depending on the depth of the stub out and the depth of the main, that is probably a no-go. I agree with SF, whatever size you put in with that low number of DFU's, an ongoing maintenance situation is being created.

Using 8" would be my least favorite option. Not near enough water to make that work. AND...you would have to install at least two manholes.

I would go for 6" and ask the AHJ for a variance to minimize slope. Double 6" combos for cleanouts every 100'.

Then I would buy a jetter. :yes:


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> First things first, what they want takes a back seat to the mandates of the code and good workmanship.
> 
> The reality is up to and including 6" you will have to have 91-1/4" of fall. So depending on the depth of the stub out and the depth of the main, that is probably a no-go. I agree with SF, whatever size you put in with that low number of DFU's, an ongoing maintenance situation is being created.
> 
> ...


I get 45.625" of inches of fall isn't a 1/16 per foot on 6 or 8 inch pipe O.K.? or is my math wrong I lost my code book years ago maybe my code memory is wrong


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

saysflushable said:


> I get 45.625" of inches of fall isn't a 1/16 per foot on 6 or 8 inch pipe O.K.? or is my math wrong



IPC states 1/8" for 3" to 6".

1/16" for 8".


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Plumberman911 said:


> there is for 8" and we would have to dig the main first to see about 4"


If the main is 8", OKC will not let you tie in an 8" service. It will have to be 6" or less.

Went through this with Bill last year at the MH parks. According to DFU sizing the last half one of the parks should have been 8". He made us keep it at 6" since the main was only 8".

I have received a variance for slope in the past. The AHJ preferred to sacrifice slope rather than install a mechanical system.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Plumberman911 said:


> i cant walk away, im under contract. they have been kicking this around like a ball for 4 months. tomorrow we are setting fixtures and they still havent decided. sewer is under the whole plumbing job contract from ground up


Oh, sorry, misunderstood.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

If it is a lift station you don't have to have fall it can rollacoaster they don't care because it is pump action. Clean outs every 100 feet like normal sewer.
I live two hours one way from this job so I'm not cleaning it out. It's their baby. I will install it carefully and correct but it's not a good situation. I don't build manholes so that to me is a issue. A sewer that far I thought about CO every 80 ft. The owner insist on 8". 
They are going to bore the parking lot and see what the depth there is. We have to uncover city main to see how deep it is. One manhole is 44" 400 ft away it's 10'. Ill be about he middle


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

If you've got a manhole at 400', why are you talking about going 700+ feet?

Stay with gravity IMO...lift station sounds easy until you have to clean it out or service/change the pumps...then you'll wish you'd never put it in 

Manhole can be ordered in prefabbed. You just need to assemble and grout the pieces together. Pretty easy....but like many have said: you lose flow and dynamic head pressure by going larger than 4".

Like Biz said, if they insist I'd be willing to install 6", but never 8".

In either case I hope you have a rock clause in your contract...going that deep you're likely to need it :whistling2:


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Here they would require 6" sdr for the building sewer, the sewer district takes over after it leaves the building and they require 6" sdr. We did a gravity sewer that long 4 or 5 years ago for a school bathroom addition and it is working fine, I believe it was 4 toilets and 2 urinals IIRC.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

It's 730 to that manhole. From the building


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## AndersenPlumbing (Jan 23, 2010)

Why so little talk of 6"? In my area this would be a no brainer, I think 6" would be required and the only thing allowed with the small amount of fixtures.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Plumberman911 said:


> It's 730 to that manhole. From the building


What is the elevation difference between the invert at building and invert at manhole?


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

deerslayer said:


> Here they would require 6" sdr for the building sewer, the sewer district takes over after it leaves the building and they require 6" sdr. We did a gravity sewer that long 4 or 5 years ago for a school bathroom addition and it is working fine, I believe it was 4 toilets and 2 urinals IIRC.


That is a testament to your good workmanship, slayer...if there had been any bellies you'd have been back out there by now :yes:


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

Well the part that sucks is its a county clinic. In a small nowhere town. The owner has a lot of pull with the city. The states involved I think because of the owner. My inspector is a home builder. Not even a plumber. I'd be better with 6". They say no to that like the lift station. 
Don't know the difference in elevation yet. Waiting in the bore company and city


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

How do you put a job under contract and not know how you're going to run the sewer 700' away?


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

If it will be a forced main use a tracer wire.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

Plumberman911 said:


> Its is a small wing they added onto a county clinic. That is the only fixtures that will ever be on that line. Fall to the main is a issue. 8" is half the fall


If this is an add on to an existing building, why not tie into the sewer leaving the existing building ?

Sure would save a lot of digging.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

RealLivePlumber said:


> How do you put a job under contract and not know how you're going to run the sewer 700' away?


The sewer was bid a standard at first. Then the owner got involved now it will be a change order


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

I think a tracer wire is a good idea and should be standard practice. My opinion. Old days line up with the main vent you'll find the sewer not so anymore.
The original sewer stubs out the front. We are on the back side of the building this wing is. No way to it. Believe me I wish I could


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

johnlewismcleod said:


> That is a testament to your good workmanship, slayer...if there had been any bellies you'd have been back out there by now :yes:


We set that one with a sewer laser and the MSD inspector checked every inch of the pipe with a grade level. I didn't mind her checking it but I was surprised that she checked every inch. I believe we were at a little over 2% and both inverts lined up within 1/8". Fun job I love the math and seeing a plan come together.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Just install the 6 inches and write '8' over the six on the pipes..


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

It probably be cheaper to put in a septic then you don't have to dink around


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

revenge said:


> It probably be cheaper to put in a septic then you don't have to dink around


OKC won't allow it if a city main can be accessed. Even if the access sucks.


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

wow did not know that but it would be easier though inho


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> OKC won't allow it if a city main can be accessed. Even if the access sucks.


 My late father fought that while he was on County board... the health dept want all septic connected if sewer are within 200 ft. No matter what the condition of the septic system.. he said yeah, right, the sewer is across 4 lanes highway and no the hell way the HO can afford to hook up from a perfectly working septic system. He got the majority votes til he passed away and they changed the rulings. Same thing with the private well.


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

I would go 4" for 100' a C/O, switch to 6" with C/O's every 100 feet.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

2009 IPSDC (International Private Sewage Disposal Code)

CHAPTER 1
SCOPE AND ADMINISTRATION
Section 101

*101.3 Public Sewer Connection.*
Where public sewers become available to the premises served, the use of the private sewage disposal system shall be discontinued within that period of time required by law, but such period shall not exceed 1 year. The building sewer shall be disconnected from the private sewage disposal system and connected to the public sewer.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Just install the 6 inches and write '8' over the six on the pipes..


Lmao!! Staples has some stamps that would work too


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> 2009 IPSDC (International Private Sewage Disposal Code)
> 
> CHAPTER 1
> SCOPE AND ADMINISTRATION
> ...


 Bullshlt... if there no sewer stub to private property, then what?? This ruling made to get more reveune and goverment control... I would not give up a perfectly working septic system for this monthly extortion fees.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

I'm going tomorrow to set fixtures. They don't have a sewer. It's being occupied January 15th. 
Thank you for the info on the manholes


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