# Nr240a Navien



## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

I'm just wondering if anybody has installed the newer version of these. I know most had bad experiences with old CR'S. I know I did. Actually I just got an RGA to change out the last one I did of the old models.
The tech support has been excellant from my view point and thats why I would like to give them a second chance as long as there are no more issues with software etc....
As well has anyone installed there combi units? If so, how are they working out?
Keep it civil. Just asking.:yes:


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

njoy plumbing said:


> I'm just wondering if anybody has installed the newer version of these. I have I know most had bad experiences with old CR'S I SURE HAVE. I know I did. Actually I just got an RGA to change out the last one I did of the old models. Funny, I just did the exact same thing
> The tech support has been excellant from my view point and thats why I would like to give them a second chance as long as there are no more issues with software etc....
> As well has anyone installed there combi units? NOPE If so, how are they working out?
> Keep it civil. Just asking.:yes:


 
I did a NR240 a few months back and had logistical issues, meaning heater was smashed in before it shipped from the manu. Wound up getting it all put in, no complaints so far. Another I had, just like you an older CR and after about a dozen trips, I finally got them to replace it with a brand new NR. That was about a month or so ago. I called my client the other day to check up on it and he said everything's been working just fine. The one thing I noticed is the change in output temps are very slow. Prolly the worst I have ever seen. Also the max output GPM flow is almost 2 gpm less than the CR line. 60 degree rise gets you about 5 .5 give or take....basically what all the other manufacturers have in this size. And it's still almost 100 pounds, get your shoulders streached out before you try and throw it on the wall. OH, it's the same mounting bracket, so you won't have to replace that. The remote is a revised SW version but looks / acts the same. Good Luck


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

I have a buddy who doesn't do much tankless but installed a pair of 240's in a large house about a year ago. Whenever it comes up he's always "why don't you like them". The other day he calls me up and says "well, I may be changing my tune". They are starting to not work properly, one has had a circuit board replaced which didn't seem to help, they're going down hill fast.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Tankless said:


> I did a NR240 a few months back and had logistical issues, meaning heater was smashed in before it shipped from the manu. Wound up getting it all put in, no complaints so far. Another I had, just like you an older CR and after about a dozen trips, I finally got them to replace it with a brand new NR. That was about a month or so ago. I called my client the other day to check up on it and he said everything's been working just fine. The one thing I noticed is the change in output temps are very slow. Prolly the worst I have ever seen. Also the max output GPM flow is almost 2 gpm less than the CR line. 60 degree rise gets you about 5 .5 give or take....basically what all the other manufacturers have in this size. And it's still almost 100 pounds, get your shoulders streached out before you try and throw it on the wall. OH, it's the same mounting bracket, so you won't have to replace that. The remote is a revised SW version but looks / acts the same. Good Luck


An NR 240 weighs 77 lbs., with a circ, 86 lbs with the comparable Rinnai weighing in at 71 lbs with no circ, don't think that should feel like too much. I do like the mounting bracket, meaning your not trying to screw a 70 lb + unit to the wall.

Reduced flow?

Its input x comb efficiency / weight of 1 gal (8.34) / 60 minutes / temp rise = GPM Flow

So at 60 degree rise a condensing Rinnai would be 6.363 GPM, a Navien 6.495 GPM, and as a comparison, a 83% tankless 5.501 GPM.

If it's less than expected, I would be looking at inlet gas, water pressure or air/fuel mix.

The GPM readout along with inlet and outlet temp to calculate rise is accessible from the LED readout on the board. 

Regarding the remote, I do like some of the new features such as the well pump setting capability.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

I still refuse to install these. I hear way to many complaints from owners of the units, along with the installers at the plumbing supply.

ZL700 I have a feeling Tankless knows how to insure the unites are getting the proper gas flow, and has proper water pressure and air/fuel mix. Out of all on this forum, I trust Tankless's experience in installing tankless water heaters.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Well, there are those that learn and do what the customer wants or requests, and then there are those that sit at home with no work, complaining about bills and finances.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

ZL700 said:


> Well, there are those that learn and do what the customer wants or requests, and then there are those that sit at home with no work, complaining about bills and finances.


I work just fine these days. At least I do not install an inferior product just so I can milk money from my customers to keep it running for them. When I am asked by the customer to sell them a product, I will sell them something that will last them a long time with out any headaches. If they want cheap or inferior products I ask them why they hired me then. 

I have educated many of home owners on which is a better brand, and option for their plumbing needs.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

ZL700 said:


> Well, there are those that learn and do what the customer wants or requests, and then there are those that sit at home with no work, complaining about bills and finances.


Wut the hell is that supposed to mean? I don't hear any complaining.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Matt said:


> Wut the hell is that supposed to mean? I don't hear any complaining.


 
My comment wasn't directed at anyone, But, I find it interesting when people refuse to do something in their trade, learn, train, and complain about lack of work in the next breath.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

ZL700 said:


> My comment wasn't directed at anyone, But, I find it interesting when people refuse to do something in their trade, learn, train, and complain about lack of work in the next breath.


There is not a whole lot of complaining here. Why are you complaining about the complaining. Seems to me, you are part of the complaining problem as opposed to the solution....

I have installed some large tankless units. I like them. Not sure they have paid out though.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Quick question ZL700, how long have you been plumbing? Also how many tankelss units have you installed?


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> Quick question ZL700, how long have you been plumbing? Also how many tankelss units have you installed?


bum bum bahhhhh... The plot thickens.:laughing:


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Installed? maybe 6 or 7 total

Have been involved in the tankless industry working directly for manufcturers of tankless for over 20, involved in design, training, testing, technical writing .............

It is my business to know tankless, ask me about sewer machines and the reply is what?


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

ZL700 said:


> Installed? maybe 6 or 7 total
> 
> Have been involved in the tankless industry working directly for manufcturers of tankless for over 20, involved in design, training, testing, technical writing .............
> 
> It is my business to know tankless, ask me about sewer machines and the reply is what?


So I take it you are a plumber then?

Or just a rep for Navien?


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> So I take it you are a plumber then?
> 
> Or just a rep for Navien?


I can type slower, I work/worked for all tankless (except Quietside)


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

ZL700 said:


> I can type slower, I work/worked for all tankless (except Quietside)


ok let me put this question in bold for you.

*Are you a Plumber?*


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

He is in the plumbing industry. He is welcome on this board. Whether or not he gets respected by the members is up in the air.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Matt said:


> He is in the plumbing industry. He is welcome on this board. Whether or not he gets respected by the members is up in the air.


Ok Matt, I will leave it at that.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Matt said:


> He is in the plumbing industry. He is welcome on this board. Whether or not he gets respected by the members is up in the air.


10/4, in the industry and a licensed professional engineer (2 states) 

I realize where rat is going with this, but as the rules read, my son who is 13 could belong


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

ZL700 said:


> 10/4, in the industry and a licensed professional engineer (2 states)
> 
> I realize where rat is going with this, but as the rules read, my son who is 13 could belong


How can a 13 year old join? If this is the case then maybe the rules need to be reevaluated.

I always hated working for engineers, they always act like they where way above me, and wanted things done to their plumbing that would never pass any code any where.

Heh, I just had one that told me he did not need me to sell him any "snake oil remedy" for his tree roots (RootX), that he makes his own copper sulfate by putting 5 pounds of copper nails down his vent stack and follows that up with sulfuric acid. When I rodded his line I pulled out two 5 gallon pails of roots that where fool of copper nails. He bought the RootX off me.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> How can a 13 year old join? If this is the case then maybe the rules need to be reevaluated.
> 
> I always hated working for engineers, they always act like they where way above me, and wanted things done to their plumbing that would never pass any code any where.
> 
> Heh, I just had one that told me he did not need me to sell him any "snake oil remedy" for his tree roots (RootX), that he makes his own copper sulfate by putting 5 pounds of copper nails down his vent stack and follows that up with sulfuric acid. When I rodded his line I pulled out two 5 gallon pails of roots that where fool of copper nails. He bought the RootX off me.


I am not above anyone, always listening to suggestions and input. But we are needed to invent or advance the field, where did PVC come from? a chemical engineer. Backflow prevention? a mechanical engineer

But one thing for sure, I know all tankless units inside and out!


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

PE's have that air of ignorrance about them. That's OK, I'm sure Navien keeps him real busy with their piss poor design. From someone who has more real world experience than you will ever have, Navien is a poor design. I have always said, it's a better idea than a product. Since you directly work for Navien I guess I would be knocking your abilities.....if the shoe fits.......


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> How can a 13 year old join? If this is the case then maybe the rules need to be reevaluated.
> 
> I always hated working for engineers, they always act like they where way above me, and wanted things done to their plumbing that would never pass any code any where.
> 
> Heh, I just had one that told me he did not need me to sell him any "snake oil remedy" for his tree roots (RootX), that he makes his own copper sulfate by putting 5 pounds of copper nails down his vent stack and follows that up with sulfuric acid. When I rodded his line I pulled out two 5 gallon pails of roots that where fool of copper nails. He bought the RootX off me.


When do you go back for the repipe which is surely necessary due to the sulfuric acid treatments?


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

ZL700 said:


> I am not above anyone, always listening to suggestions and input. But we are needed to invent or advance the field, where did PVC come from? a chemical engineer. Backflow prevention? a mechanical engineer
> 
> But one thing for sure, I know all tankless units inside and out!





sigh.......Good for you pal.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Professional Engineers don't invent shyit, retired plumbers do. Why? Years of experience that you cannot learn from a book or classes.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

I do like the Naviens, aside from some board issues (which can be programmed). Some day if I decide to leave my unnamed 3rd party agency, think Navien will hire me? Gosh they might since they have leapfrogged Takagi and Noritz in sales according to AHR/GAMA reporting. 

Arrogance, really?, you met the bad ones, there are some just like arrogant know-it-all plumbers. 

Sorry guys the world is full of "chains of command" I applaud your plumbing professionalism and knowledge. dislike the dirty fingernails:no:


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

ZL700 said:


> I do like the Naviens, aside from some board issues (which can be programmed). Some day if I decide to leave my unnamed 3rd party agency, think Navien will hire me? Gosh they might since they have leapfrogged Takagi and Noritz in sales according to AHR/GAMA reporting.
> 
> Arrogance, really?, you met the bad ones, there are some just like arrogant know-it-all plumbers.
> 
> Sorry guys the world is full of "chains of command" I applaud your plumbing professionalism and knowledge. dislike the dirty fingernails:no:


Let's not forget those pesky WAV's and rusting flow sensors - dried out & cracking gas tubing - solonoids arcing to the can, (7W) resistors falling off the board....the list goes on. There is no easy fix to a bad design. Noritz and Rinnai NEVER released junk for the public to deal with, like how Navien has. That will be their un-doing


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Tankless said:


> Let's not forget those pesky WAV's and rusting flow sensors - dried out & cracking gas tubing - solonoids arcing to the can, (7W) resistors falling off the board....the list goes on. There is no easy fix to a bad design. Noritz and Rinnai NEVER released junk for the public to deal with, like how Navien has. That will be their un-doing


Yes perhaps, in fact you know of some I don't. I am one also that doesn't buy first year or model personally. But one thing I have observed in my travels, it can't be that bad with so many major distributors carrying the line. But even if it was 5% of the units had issues, I'm sure you guys had some and it was difficult. That said wait till 80% unit heat exchangers start failing in big numbers and they will as reports coming in our increasing.


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## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

I think I`d rather go gay then install a Navien!


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Scott K said:


> I think I`d rather go gay then install a Navien!


I can think of better choices Scott :whistling2:

Regarding Navien though, its a wait and see I guess on their new models, yet havent heard bad yet myself


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## JA Plumbing (Jun 1, 2010)

*navien no. rinnai, noritz yes.*

Our company installed 92 tankless water heaters last year. The only two that we have had problems with are the one navien and the one bosch we installed. I know who installs a Bosch right. The customer's brother works for them so he had it on site when we came to do the repipe. I will never install a Bosch again. The Navien kept having problems from bad flow sensors, to a bad circuit board, and even a bad gas control valve. We ended up taking it out and installing the Rinnai I originally suggested.


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## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

ZL700 said:


> I can think of better choices Scott :whistling2:
> 
> Regarding Navien though, its a wait and see I guess on their new models, yet havent heard bad yet myself


I'd have a partner and everything. Or maybe I'd be promiscuous? 

But in all seriousness, they sure seem to market their product well, and have caught a lot of attention that way with nice glossy fliers at the local wholesaler and all that. But with their reputation and my nack for not wanting to do emergency service calls, I'll avoid them. 

The one thing that blows me away is why don't boiler manufacturers like Viessmann or Buderus make tankless models? I know they have some combi models in Europe and they did sell a Vitodens 200 that had a small combi heat exchanger but if Viessmann brought one out that was maybe on the higher side of the price range compared to the competition and had the build quality of their boilers (or thereabouts) they would probably slay!


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

I suspect with the Tankless numbers at about 400K sold per year and residential boilers around 450K and of that combi's could be what, 10 to 15%, is all the competition worth it for the minimum unit sales?

What are we at now, 16 Tankless/hybrid labels, and 35 boiler brands/labels?


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

Just a reminder to those piping in that I'm only looking for info on the NR models. Thks Tankless will watch for issues with the lower Gpm's. It is a replacement for the CR so it will be a good test run. I will update on performance issuees. My customers understand that I wasn't trying to sell them junk, we just had to perservere with the repair issues. All the cr's that have been fixed now work real well. So hopefully all the hate isn't going to affect them too much.
I am now trying the Noritz line as well and so far so good. A little over price I think but there is always a market for quality units I guess.


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