# Simple little house



## futz

This is nothing special. I haven't posted one in a long time and since I took a few pics of the underground I'm gonna post them here.

The main CO in the garage.









Laundry.









Most of the rest - down 3 piece and branches for upstairs stuff.









Mechanical room. Irrigation stub & wire sleeve on right.









Kitchen. That's an island sink drain.


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## PLUMB TIME

Looks good. 

Is that the natural earth there or is it fill. Maybe its just my computer, looks very fine and gray.


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## futz

PLUMB TIME said:


> Looks good.
> 
> Is that the natural earth there or is it fill. Maybe its just my computer, looks very fine and gray.


That is recycled concrete. Builders around here have been using it a lot lately. I guess it's cheap. Good stuff. If they compact it before I get in there then I have to break it up with my jackhammer - it compacts *hard*. If they don't then it's easy digging - basically sort of like coarse sand, but a little tougher to dig. I just put my pipes in, water the hell out of it and tamp good and it compacts nice and hard. Much better than the crappy, fluffy river sand they used to use.


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## PLUMB TIME

Cool.


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## 89plumbum

Nice work. Just a little different than what im used to. P-trap for island underground?


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## deerslayer

The sleeves on the pex is that so you can just pull a new piece in when needed or is it required by code there?


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## futz

89plumbum said:


> Nice work. Just a little different than what im used to. P-trap for island underground?


Yup, they started allowing 2" trap underslab with cleanouts up and downstream and max 8' arm instead of barber's loop a long time ago here. There's another cleanout at the tee or wye at the wall as well. Where it can be used it's really a time saver. Barber's loop eats a lot of depth, which equals a lot of extra digging. They're still used in places where we need them.



deerslayer said:


> The sleeves on the pex is that so you can just pull a new piece in when needed or is it required by code there?


It's not required. It's my thing. I like my underground lines protected. And it's a bonus that I may be able to push in a new line if something bad happens.

I just found out that my supplier has pre-sleeved PEX available in 400' coils. (I didn't use it here.) The sleeve they use is really slippery and will probably make longer runs replaceable. The friction of PEX in Poly-E gets really ridiculous after around 35' to 40'. Think I may start using the new stuff soon for longer runs. On shorter runs I'll stick with PEX in Poly-E because that method gets rid of a lot of radiant heating pipe scrap.


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## Adamche

So do they pour the concrete slab separate to the footings?


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## futz

Adamche said:


> So do they pour the concrete slab separate to the footings?


Yes. After they prep for radiant I'll go in there and put down the hot water radiant piping, get inspected and then they pour. Radiant happens Monday, inspection Tuesday and pour Wednesday. It's a small house with radiant on main floor only, so radiant will only take a day.

How do they do it in Aus? Monolithic pours? I hate working on those. Lucky for me they're pretty rare here - only done where ground conditions make it necessary.


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## Adamche

futz said:


> Yes. After they prep for radiant I'll go in there and put down the hot water radiant piping, get inspected and then they pour. Radiant happens Monday, inspection Tuesday and pour Wednesday. It's a small house, so radiant will only take a day.
> 
> How do they do it in Aus? Monolithic pours? I hate working on those. Lucky for me they're pretty rare here - only done where ground conditions make it necessary.


Yeah usually single pour, plumbers are in first laying slab wastes, and any H&C water underslab. You have to be good on the tape measure:blink:. We do have radiant here but it is not popular, I have only seen it once and I was helping my older brother, he was a H&V plumber. I would have been about 14 at the time. 
I like the way of having the footings in first.


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## pilot light

Where is the 3" main vent? No pictures?:thumbsup:


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## futz

Adamche said:


> Yeah usually single pour, plumbers are in first laying slab wastes, and any H&C water underslab. You have to be good on the tape measure:blink:.


YES, you definitely do have to work the tape measure very carefully. Mono's are a headache. Last one I did (probably ten years ago or more) was a good sized commercial office building for a big tomato greenhouse outfit. It was not fun. The radiant heating loops on re-bar (in the pouring winter rain) were a nightmare!



> I like the way of having the footings in first.


Makes the rough-in easier for sure. More concrete busting though. But that doesn't bother me much - I have good equipment.


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## futz

pilot light said:


> Where is the 3" main vent? No pictures?:thumbsup:


The 3" branch for the laundry sink is the one.  Bloody thing is totally beamed in above, so I'm lowering the laundry ceiling, going out the side under one beam into a hip roof, then up and offset back into the upstairs wall. Lot of foolin around just to get vents out.


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## pilot light

futz said:


> The 3" branch for the laundry sink is the one.  Bloody thing is totally beamed in above, so I'm lowering the laundry ceiling, going out the side under one beam into a hip roof, then up and offset back into the upstairs wall. Lot of foolin around just to get vents out.


 No doubt thats alot and oversized according to the NPC!:yes: I usually follow the last toilet out and up!


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## Widdershins

> I like the way of having the footings in first.





> Makes the rough-in easier for sure. More concrete busting though. But that doesn't bother me much - I have good equipment.


I try to do buck-outs in the footing with blocks of Styrofoam before the footings are poured when I can. Saves me a lot of jack hammering during the groundwork phase.


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## Plumbdog

Widdershins said:


> I try to do buck-outs in the footing with blocks of Styrofoam before the footings are poured when I can. Saves me a lot of jack hammering during the groundwork phase.


I don't do a ton of slab work, but will have to remember that one. thanks for the tip!


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## futz

Widdershins said:


> I try to do buck-outs in the footing with blocks of Styrofoam before the footings are poured when I can. Saves me a lot of jack hammering during the groundwork phase.


For houses I've found that it usually takes just as long to figure out where to put block-outs in the footings as it does to just knock out the concrete later. At the footing stage I don't know where the studs are going to be, or exactly where joists will be. I've wasted a lot of time figuring it all out on some jobs, putting block-outs in and then not using them later because they didn't work out anyway. So I don't bother anymore. I can punch concrete pretty fast, and at that stage I get the hole *exactly* where I need it.

On something like apartments or other big work I think it definitely does pay to do some canning. Some prep work can save a ton of punching and coring later.


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## ditchdigger

I must have roughed in hundreds of slabs and it always seems something gets a little out of whack .


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## Redwood

89plumbum said:


> Nice work. Just a little different than what im used to. P-trap for island underground?


Ya that is a bit different than us...
Funny thing on the Canadian Plumbing Forums they seem to complain a lot about how loud it is when the dishwasher drains.... :laughing:

Kinda like Niagara Falls I guess...:laughing:


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## TallCoolOne

Redwood said:


> Ya that is a bit different than us...
> Funny thing on the Canadian Plumbing Forums they seem to complain a lot about how loud it is when the dishwasher drains.... :laughing:
> 
> Kinda like Niagara Falls I guess...:laughing:


What the point of putting a trap underslab for the sink area?

Do they still use traps on the sink drain underneath the sink?


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## futz

TallCoolOne said:


> What the point of putting a trap underslab for the sink area?


Keeps the stink down. :laughing:



> Do they still use traps on the sink drain underneath the sink?


You mean with an underground trap? No, one trap is enough.


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## TallCoolOne

futz said:


> Keeps the stink down. :laughing:
> 
> You mean with an underground trap? No, one trap is enough.


Yes with one underground trap.

So if you put a trap underground for the sink then you can elimate the trap for the sink.

Odd and interesting....


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## ditchdigger

Pretty good idea. I do it with washing machine drains sometimes keeps you from having to get that 2 inch trap in a 3.5 inch wall.


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## futz

TallCoolOne said:


> So if you put a trap underground for the sink then you can elimate the trap for the sink.


No, we're not eliminating the trap for the sink. The underground trap *IS* the trap for the sink. There's no reason to have more than one.



ditchdigger said:


> Pretty good idea. I do it with washing machine drains sometimes keeps you from having to get that 2 inch trap in a 3.5 inch wall.


2" trap for AW? Is this on commercial? We use 1-1/2" here on residential.


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## ditchdigger

futz said:


> No, we're not eliminating the trap for the sink. The underground trap IS the trap for the sink. There's no reason to have more than one.
> 
> 2" trap for AW? Is this on commercial? We use 1-1/2" here on residential.


Yes 2 inch trap is required here for washing machine drain.


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## AbsoluteDP

futz said:


> No, we're not eliminating the trap for the sink. The underground trap *IS* the trap for the sink. There's no reason to have more than one.


And what are the benefits of the underground trap for the sink?


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## rjbphd

AbsoluteDP said:


> And what are the benefits of the underground trap for the sink?


Yeah, really?? I don't think it will fly here... because in the next remodel job or some hackers will think we licensed plumbers and inspectors screwed up by not installing a trap in 1st place. Then they will put one on and make it double trapped, which is even worse..


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## TallCoolOne

rjbphd said:


> Yeah, really?? I don't think it will fly here... because in the next remodel job or some hackers will think we licensed plumbers and inspectors screwed up by not installing a trap in 1st place. Then they will put one on and make it double trapped, which is even worse..


Agreed how would a plumber in the future know it has a trap underground?


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## TallCoolOne

ditchdigger said:


> Pretty good idea. I do it with washing machine drains sometimes keeps you from having to get that 2 inch trap in a 3.5 inch wall.


The used to do that in my area with cast iron back in the 60 and 70. All traps in my opinion need to be above slab


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## TallCoolOne

I understand that up north like in Pennsylvania they have main line traps on 4" line and they still do that on new construction.....


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## ditchdigger

TallCoolOne said:


> The used to do that in my area with cast iron back in the 60 and 70. All traps in my opinion need to be above slab


Gonna be hard to get a tub or a shower trap above the slab.


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## rjbphd

ditchdigger said:


> Gonna be hard to get a tub or a shower trap above the slab.


 Lol... that's a whole different story than the kitchen sink/ disposal trap!!..


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## Don The Plumber

Maybe he's going to indirect waste it. :laughing: I never seen a trap below slab either, for a residential kitchen sink. Not knocking the job though either, cuz its a nice lookin job. Just friendly discussion.

Seems like alot of piping could go under that sink, before the trap, & start stinking. How do ya pipe in 2 or 3 compartments?


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## TallCoolOne

ditchdigger said:


> Gonna be hard to get a tub or a shower trap above the slab.


 
Good Point


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## TallCoolOne

AbsoluteDP said:


> And what are the benefits of the underground trap for the sink?


Anyone have a answer?


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## OldSchool

TallCoolOne said:


> Anyone have a answer?


It's legal in Canada


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## TallCoolOne

OldSchool said:


> It's legal in Canada


I hear you, but what is the benefit.

Looks like more of a problem in the making, especially debris from garbage disposals backing thing up under slab in the trap.


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## rjbphd

TallCoolOne said:


> I hear you, but what is the benefit.
> 
> Looks like more of a problem in the making, especially debris from garbage disposals backing thing up under slab in the trap.


 Same here... with the long extra piping from the drain(s) its gotta smells of some sort.. and still trying to picture the venting in the slab after the trap... where's the MASTER 1 when we need him?? Lol


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## OldSchool

TallCoolOne said:


> I hear you, but what is the benefit.
> 
> Looks like more of a problem in the making, especially debris from garbage disposals backing thing up under slab in the trap.


Usually I pipe it in with 2" .... Never seems to be a problem... There is a clean out installed above ptrap


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## futz

*A little radiant*

Some radiant heating has been installed.


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## rjbphd

futz said:


> Some radiant heating has been installed.


Ahhh, yes yes yes... my knees don't miss that kind of work... nice layout.. and see that you have insualtions on the outside walls, how far down??


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## futz

TallCoolOne said:


> I hear you, but what is the benefit.
> 
> Looks like more of a problem in the making, especially debris from garbage disposals backing thing up under slab in the trap.


The benefit is that it eats much less height than a barber's loop (less digging), and is far easier to implement. Works just as well.

It's very cleanable - even a semi-handy homeowner with a hand spinner should have no problem unclogging any blockages in the thing. There are cleanouts up and downstream of the trap, and another at the wall. The arm is max 8' long, so it's really not difficult to snake out. I've done a bunch of these things over the years and have not had any problems to date. I'm not thrilled with the idea of having the trap under the slab either, but so far it hasn't been a problem.


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## rjbphd

futz said:


> The benefit is that it eats much less height than a barber's loop (less digging), and is far easier to implement. Works just as well.
> 
> It's very cleanable - even a semi-handy homeowner with a hand spinner should have no problem unclogging any blockages in the thing. There are cleanouts up and downstream of the trap, and another at the wall. The arm is max 8' long, so it's really not difficult to snake out. I've done a bunch of these things over the years and have not had any problems to date. I'm not thrilled with the idea of having the trap under the slab either, but so far it hasn't been a problem.


Inquiry minds want to know what's a 'barber loop'????


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## futz

rjbphd said:


> and I see that you have insulations on the outside walls, how far down??


Those are just "kant strip" foam triangles. They're one of the three optional methods the code requires for insulating slab edges on radiant jobs.


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## rjbphd

futz said:


> Those are just "kant strip" foam triangles. They're one of the three optional methods the code requires for insulating slab edges on radiant jobs.


 But.... how deep????


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## futz

rjbphd said:


> Inquiry minds want to know what's a 'barber loop'????


Most likely it's the way you do it, but you have a different name for it. They are also known as a Chicago Loop.


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## futz

rjbphd said:


> But.... how deep????


Oh. Hehehe. :laughing: Slab depth - 3-1/2"?


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## rjbphd

futz said:


> Most likely it's the way you do it, but you have a different name for it. They are also known as a Chicago Loop.


 That's the first I heard it called " Chicago Loop" as the codebook call it ' island venting'... and that same page you sent also stated using a AAV will work and cheaper too.
Imo, loop vent would works... that was permitted long time ago...


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## TallCoolOne

In sewer pipe I was taught 3 or 4" Sand Tee with a 2" side inlet was called a Wisconsin

Don't know why, but I still call it that


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## AbsoluteDP

TallCoolOne said:


> The used to do that in my area with cast iron back in the 60 and 70. All traps in my opinion need to be above slab


Period


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## theplumbinator

futz said:


> Yup, they started allowing 2" trap underslab with cleanouts up and downstream and max 8' arm instead of barber's loop a long time ago here. There's another cleanout at the tee or wye at the wall as well. Where it can be used it's really a time saver. Barber's loop eats a lot of depth, which equals a lot of extra digging. They're still used in places where we need them.
> 
> It's not required. It's my thing. I like my underground lines protected. And it's a bonus that I may be able to push in a new line if something bad happens.
> 
> I just found out that my supplier has pre-sleeved PEX available in 400' coils. (I didn't use it here.) The sleeve they use is really slippery and will probably make longer runs replaceable. The friction of PEX in Poly-E gets really ridiculous after around 35' to 40'. Think I may start using the new stuff soon for longer runs. On shorter runs I'll stick with PEX in Poly-E because that method gets rid of a lot of radiant heating pipe scrap.


We pipe island sink same way here you may use loop vent if you want but we can go 8' on 2" from vent to end of sink arm if we want trap has to be in cabinett though not allowed to make a tailpiece longer than 30 " long the velocity of the water will siphon the trap seal so the code says.


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## Piper34

I've Put traps under floor when getting vent up fix wall was impossible ,allowing us to pipe vent back underground and bring to interior wall that vent can be run up in . Today I would definetly use an AAV . But always wondered did someone down the line say (hey this sink has no trap) a lot of smart guys shoot their mouth off before realizing what's up.


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## theplumbinator

Auto air vents are illegal here. I don't understand why we can only have a 30" tailpiece either we are allowed a 48" laundry standpipe... makes no sense to me. We put mop sink traps in slabs all the time, also floor drains and shower or tub traps. But they want sink traps readily accessible.


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## Bayside500

theplumbinator said:


> Auto air vents are illegal here. I don't understand why we can only have a 30" tailpiece either we are allowed a 48" laundry standpipe... makes no sense to me. We put mop sink traps in slabs all the time, also floor drains and shower or tub traps. But they want sink traps readily accessible.


ya the laundry deal blows my mind too


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## futz

Here's the final product. Finished it mostly last week.

Island sink. Cheap owner-supplied undermount and crappy owner-supplied Riobel faucet & garb.


















And here is the "controversial" island drain. Tried to get the electrician to move that box to one side or the other (it's directly below the faucet), but he refused. Someone could get killed when that junky faucet leaks someday.









The laundry piping.









Tight little mechanical room under the stairs. Gas piping & venting by others.


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## phishfood

A vacuum relief valve is required on all water heaters in your area? Only required on side feed water heaters around here.


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## theplumbinator

We only have to install vacuum breaker on water heater if its not at the lowest point in the plumbing system. But by looking at where the main is coming out of the slab I would guess that its at the lowest point in the house, so how could the water heater syphon? Waste of a vacuum breaker?


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## futz

phishfood said:


> A vacuum relief valve is required on all water heaters in your area? Only required on side feed water heaters around here.





theplumbinator said:


> We only have to install vacuum breaker on water heater if its not at the lowest point in the plumbing system. But by looking at where the main is coming out of the slab I would guess that its at the lowest point in the house, so how could the water heater syphon? Waste of a vacuum breaker?


It's the law here. We put one on all water heaters - even tankless.


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## theplumbinator

I guess we have codes that dont make any sense either.


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## Tommy plumber

Where's the p-trap for the kitchen sink?......:blink:


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## GREENPLUM

why not buy some blue pipe?


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## 504Plumber

Tommy plumber said:


> Where's the p-trap for the kitchen sink?......:blink:


Go back to first page, do not pass go, do not collect $200


My question, would a washing machine box not have worked? We do the traps under slab as well for island sinks but we put our cleanouts on a wye, i think it makes it a tad bit easier to unstop than forcing cable down a tee.


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## futz

GREENPLUM said:


> why not buy some blue pipe?


???. You talking about the red pipe? I have tons of radiant heating scrap to get rid of. All underslab WLs are oxy-barrier until I run out, which is just not gonna happen. 



504Plumber said:


> Go back to first page, do not pass go, do not collect $200


:laughing:



504Plumber said:


> My question, would a washing machine box not have worked?


Outside wall. Could maybe have put rigid insulation behind a laundry box and possibly argue with the inspector, but...



504Plumber said:


> We do the traps under slab as well for island sinks but we put our cleanouts on a wye, i think it makes it a tad bit easier to unstop than forcing cable down a tee.


The downstream CO is on a wye. The upstream one I was ultra pinched for height. Thus the LCO.


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## 504Plumber

futz said:


> ???. You talking about the red pipe? I have tons of radiant heating scrap to get rid of. All underslab WLs are oxy-barrier until I run out, which is just not gonna happen.
> 
> :laughing:
> 
> Outside wall. Could maybe have put rigid insulation behind a laundry box and possibly argue with the inspector, but...
> 
> The downstream CO is on a wye. The upstream one I was ultra pinched for height. Thus the LCO.


Wish I had that option, most of the time I am forced into cutting an oval hole with a jig saw to make a wye fit. All looks good from my house though.


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## rjbphd

futz said:


> It's the law here. We put one on all water heaters - even tankless.


 Stupid law... never seen one here...


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## futz

rjbphd said:


> Stupid law... never seen one here...


There's plenty of them in the book. The codes are cooked up by committees. :yes: They come up with some dumb stuff sometimes. As long as everyone has to do it I really just don't care.


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## rjbphd

futz said:


> There's plenty of them in the book. The codes are cooked up by committees. :yes: They come up with some dumb stuff sometimes. As long as everyone has to do it I really just don't care.


 True, one of them is you are not allowed to hook up the dishwasher drain into the garbage disposal.. no one can't tell me why... and some of the answer were the most stupid one I've heard.(seen)


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## 504Plumber

rjbphd said:


> True, one of them is you are not allowed to hook up the dishwasher drain into the garbage disposal.. no one can't tell me why... and some of the answer were the most stupid one I've heard.(seen)


That's dumb, only problem I see is backup from running the disposal when stopped up. If looped high enough it shouldn't happen unless you keep the stopper in and run the disposal.


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## futz

rjbphd said:


> True, one of them is you are not allowed to hook up the dishwasher drain into the garbage disposal.. no one can't tell me why... and some of the answer were the most stupid one I've heard.(seen)


That's an odd rule. 

In all my years plumbing I've seen *one* garb that was totally rotted out by the caustic dishwasher "soap". It was all caked in there. Turns out the customer never used either the garb or that bowl of the sink, so the stuff never got rinsed out. 

That's the only thing I can think of that would cause them to make such a rule. But it's not a common thing, so maybe they have some other crazy idea...

There's only one reason for that drain spig on the side of garbs. Dishwasher drains! :laughing:


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## 89plumbum

How is the kitchen vented?


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## theplumbinator

Most county's in my state do not allow food waste grinders, we put them in anyway but after final inspection usually. The reason for that ordance is to keep rats out of the sewer system. 40 miles away in NYC thats a huge problem.


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## 89plumbum

89plumbum said:


> How is the kitchen vented?


Disregard, got answer on page 1.


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## futz

89plumbum said:


> Disregard, got answer on page 1.


I drew ya a nice quicky diagram anyway.


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## 504Plumber

futz said:


> I drew ya a nice quicky diagram anyway.


How'd ya get them math symbols on a 45


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## JDGA80

Nice pix, never seen islands with traps in the slab. Always tubular into the 2" T, bushined to 1½ trap adapter with an air admittance valve (studor vent) out the top and into the slab. Nice workmanship though!


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## futz

504Plumber said:


> How'd ya get them math symbols on a 45


Math symbols? You mean the cleanout symbols? :laughing: I just did a quick and dirty with Inkscape. The drawing is super sloppy, but good enough for what it is.


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## Plumberman911

Looks good. Only thing I saw wouldn't pass here no union between tee and gas valve on hwt

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## alberteh

wouldn't the yellow flex be considered a union?


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## plbgbiz

Clean work Mr. Futz.


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## Plumberman911

alberteh said:


> wouldn't the yellow flex be considered a union?


Not here can not use the cast for a union

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## Plumberman911

Dang auto correct. Can use csst fitting for a union

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## Plumberman911

Dang it. Nope you cannt. 

Sorry guys. Can't talk can't spell

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## redbeardplumber

futz said:


> Here's the final product. Finished it mostly last week.
> 
> Island sink. Cheap owner-supplied undermount and crappy owner-supplied Riobel faucet & garb.
> 
> And here is the "controversial" island drain. Tried to get the electrician to move that box to one side or the other (it's directly below the faucet), but he refused. Someone could get killed when that junky faucet leaks someday.
> 
> The laundry piping.
> 
> Tight little mechanical room under the stairs. Gas piping & venting by others.


Would kill to still be able to install standard vent appliances up here!


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

It does look strange with the trap in the slab. At first you think wth


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