# Water coming out of shower when tub turns on.



## RW Plumbing

This is a Moen positemp mixing valve. It isn't installed upside down, if it was the trim kit wouldn't work(Moen has a notch on the top of the valve.)
When the water is running full cold, it doesn't come out of the shower. Full hot, same thing no water out of the shower head. When they mix together (You can tell there is an increased amount of pressure)

I am thinking it is related to pressure. There seemed to be alot of flow coming through the faucets(like an abnormal amount) I'm going to check the pressure out on wed. Any other ideas? I checked for restrictions in the tub spout there wasn't any. 

Also if it is too high of pressure(80psi is our code limit), how would you approach installing a PRV? This lady is a biotch with a capitol B, and of course it is an improper installation and is all my fault. If it is too high of pressure, I don't think i'm going to touch it without installing a PRV, and it is going to be at an additional cost.


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## pauliplumber

Is tubspout piped in copper?

Doubt it's water pressure unless it's insanely high.

I say something has gotta be restricting tub spout or pipe to spout.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

It is just possible that you have a bad molded valve. It happens. I had one like that earlier this year. We did not install this valve, but had the same diagnosis that you described. I tried 3 different cartridges before I decided that It was for sure an issue with the valve body. Valve was installed right said up. Probably the case with yours. Good luck with your customer.


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## RW Plumbing

It is copper piping. Well it is PEX until a pex x IP drop ear ell. Then a 1/2" copper MIP with copper stub out. I hope it isn't a bad valve. Who pays for that? I certainly don't want to eat the cost of replacement, Moen isn't going to pay and I doubt the customer is either. That would be a real pile of crap.


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## rocksteady

RW Plumbing said:


> It is copper piping. Well it is PEX until a pex x IP drop ear ell. Then a 1/2" copper MIP with copper stub out. I hope it isn't a bad valve. *Who pays for that?* I certainly don't want to eat the cost of replacement, Moen isn't going to pay and I doubt the customer is either. That would be a real pile of crap.


Bad valve is 100% your treat if you supplied it. 

Maybe a huge glob of solder in the copper stub-out? Pull the spout and try again. Then pull the stub and try again. 




Paul


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## RW Plumbing

Customer supplied valve. Even still it really isn't their problem either. If it needs to be changed I will prob do it for free or reduced rate. I didn't supply it but, I don't like leaving people twist in the wind either.


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## rocksteady

If it's customer supplied then they're lucky for any assistance they get from you. I'd of course replace it but would most certainly charge for it. Is it a Home Depot valve with the female threads cut into it and plastic trim kit?







Paul


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## Titan Plumbing

ALWAYS with customer furnished valves/fixtures.......the warranty on labor stops at the final connection. No question...they must pay for removal and re-installation.

No twisting with my clients...I always tell them the pitfalls of furnishing their own fixtures.


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## RW Plumbing

No they bought it through the general contractor. It is actually a high end trim kit. Just the typical positemp valve though.


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## shooff96

I had the same problem a while back. I don't know what the exact pressure was, but it was high. Maintenance guy had already replaced the diverter tub spout. I replaced it with a different style diverter tub spout that must have been less restrictive, cause that fixed the problem.


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## GREENPLUM

RW Plumbing said:


> It is copper piping. Well it is PEX until a pex x IP drop ear ell. Then a 1/2" copper MIP with copper stub out. I hope it isn't a bad valve. Who pays for that? I certainly don't want to eat the cost of replacement, Moen isn't going to pay and I doubt the customer is either. That would be a real pile of crap.


read page 3, top left :whistling2:

http://www.moen.com/shared/pdf/instruction_sheets/ins129d.pdf

" *If a tub spout is installed, the drop and lookout must be 1/2" copper or 1/2" IPS pipe."*


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

GREENPLUM said:


> read page 3, top left :whistling2:
> 
> http://www.moen.com/shared/pdf/instruction_sheets/ins129d.pdf
> 
> " *If a tub spout is installed, the drop and lookout must be 1/2" copper or 1/2" IPS pipe."*



But, even if he did that, and still has issues, it is, in fact, a bad valve body.


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## GREENPLUM

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> But, even if he did that, and still has issues, it is, in fact, a bad valve body.


and if its a bad valve then Moen is at fault, 

the installer didn't follow the manufactures installation instructions its his fault, until that is fixed with copper or IPS pipe 

btw, i don't think the valve body is bad


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## RW Plumbing

GREENPLUM said:


> read page 3, top left :whistling2:
> 
> http://www.moen.com/shared/pdf/instruction_sheets/ins129d.pdf
> 
> " *If a tub spout is installed, the drop and lookout must be 1/2" copper or 1/2" IPS pipe."*


 I've done it many times before. I know that isn't an excuse and this could be part of the problem. At least I know for future refernce. PEX does have a smaller ID so that could be the problem as well. Thanks.


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## GREENPLUM

check out this moen posi temp valve for pex Moen-62380








Note the shower riser and tub spout drop, there made for copper


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## RW Plumbing

I have seen them all pex actually. I haven't seen one recently though, like in the past year. I'm willing to bet this could have been the problem with it.


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## Optimus Primer

RW Plumbing said:


> Customer supplied valve. Even still it really isn't their problem either. If it needs to be changed *I will prob do it for free* or reduced rate. I didn't supply it but, I don't like leaving people twist in the wind either.


but you'll charge an employee??


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

You guys seen the new moen valve with the sharkbite type of inlets? We used one on a modular home not to long ago. I didn't do the install, so I don't have a picture of it.


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## mssp

I say put in a new cartridge befrore trying anything else. I have seen those act weird after sitting for a long time. The fauacet grease almost sets up like glue.


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## TheMaster

I'd love to blame it on Moen but if you installed pex on the spout drop and the water pressure to the home is above about 50-60 psi and or the spout pipe is longer than 18" thats your problem.

Tub spout drops= NO 1/2" pex and not over 18" from the valve.


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## Protech

I doubt it is a valve defect. Positemp valves have the water ways cast so that the water is sent to the bottom connection first and then a totally separate water way diverts the water from the lower connection to the upper connection. I can't think of any kind of defect in the valve that would allow the condition described above to occur. The only thing that can cause that is a restricted tub spout or stub out pipe. I see it happen all the time when someone tries to run the stubout is cpvc. I've also seen it happen when they run the stubout in galvanized connected to a threaded valve. After so many years the galvo reacts with the brass valve and restricts the spout stubout.



ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> It is just possible that you have a bad molded valve. It happens. I had one like that earlier this year. We did not install this valve, but had the same diagnosis that you described. I tried 3 different cartridges before I decided that It was for sure an issue with the valve body. Valve was installed right said up. Probably the case with yours. Good luck with your customer.


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## Protech

SAY WHAT?!?! I swear to god if that's true I'm dumping moen!



ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> You guys seen the new moen valve with the sharkbite type of inlets? We used one on a modular home not to long ago. I didn't do the install, so I don't have a picture of it.


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## Protech

That's my go-to shower valve right there for the last 5 years.



GREENPLUM said:


> check out this moen posi temp valve for pex Moen-62380
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note the shower riser and tub spout drop, there made for copper


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## bartnc37

Why would having pex on the drop make the shower not work? In my experience it just makes the shower head run all the time. Theres either a bad valve body or the line going up to the shower head is plugged. Did you check that the shower head isn't plugged? 
Seems obvious but my boss was convinced that the pex going to his rainshower head had somehow kinked because he wasn't getting much water through it. Was about to crawl up in the attic when i asked him if he checked the head. 30 seconds later he had great pressure and I got to give him his own "being observant" speech back to him.


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## rocksteady

bartnc37 said:


> Why would having pex on the drop make the shower not work? In my experience it just makes the shower head run all the time.


 
Unless I read it wrong, I think that's exactly what the problem is. The shower head runs without the diverter pulled up. I don't think he's having trouble getting water out of the shower head.






Paul


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## Protech

The title of the thread is: *Water coming out of shower when tub turns on.* 



bartnc37 said:


> Why would having pex on the drop make the shower not work? In my experience it just makes the shower head run all the time. Theres either a bad valve body or the line going up to the shower head is plugged. Did you check that the shower head isn't plugged?
> Seems obvious but my boss was convinced that the pex going to his rainshower head had somehow kinked because he wasn't getting much water through it. Was about to crawl up in the attic when i asked him if he checked the head. 30 seconds later he had great pressure and I got to give him his own "being observant" speech back to him.


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## RW Plumbing

First off, Thank you for all that are giving there opinions on this. I think the pex might be the issue and I will try replacing that and the cartridge. It is water coming out of the shower head when the diverter is pulled up. I might try switching out the tub spout perhaps there is a less restrictive brand like a Kohler or something. 

Second, who cares what my policy is on charging an employee. I like to keep customers happy to increase referals. It takes at least 10 happy customers to offset an angry one. My office policy is employees don't get anything for free. Either do customers. The way I see it, it isn't the customer's fault this issue is occuring. It may or may not be mine as related to installation, but the customer is paying for a working product. 

Charging employees is a completely different issue. You may or may not agree with my opinion on charging employees for favors but, it has nothing to do with making a customer's product work correctly.


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## mssp

RW Plumbing said:


> This is a Moen positemp mixing valve. It isn't installed upside down, if it was the trim kit wouldn't work(Moen has a notch on the top of the valve.)
> When the water is running full cold, it doesn't come out of the shower. Full hot, same thing no water out of the shower head. When they mix together (You can tell there is an increased amount of pressure)
> 
> I am thinking it is related to pressure. There seemed to be alot of flow coming through the faucets(like an abnormal amount) I'm going to check the pressure out on wed. Any other ideas? I checked for restrictions in the tub spout there wasn't any.
> 
> Also if it is too high of pressure(80psi is our code limit), how would you approach installing a PRV? This lady is a biotch with a capitol B, and of course it is an improper installation and is all my fault. If it is too high of pressure, I don't think i'm going to touch it without installing a PRV, and it is going to be at an additional cost.


 In your op you say there is an increased amount of pressure when mixed. I take it, when mixed you get water out of shower head?


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## RW Plumbing

mssp said:


> In your op you say there is an increased amount of pressure when mixed. I take it, when mixed you get water out of shower head?


 Exactly the problem. When its full hot or full cold, it doesn't come out of the head. When its hot AND cold, then it comes out of the head.


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## TheMaster

RW Plumbing said:


> Exactly the problem. When its full hot or full cold, it doesn't come out of the head. When its hot AND cold, then it comes out of the head.


Your problem is the pex drop to the spout. Its too restrictive. Some older valves will do it when the water pressure is high and you change to a modern spout. i doubt changing the spout will do you any good ecause your restriction is before the spout.


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## mssp

RW Plumbing said:


> Exactly the problem. When its full hot or full cold, it doesn't come out of the head. When its hot AND cold, then it comes out of the head.


 Is it the same with the tub spout? Only comes out of spout when mixed?


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## RW Plumbing

No, I don't think it's going to do me much good either to change a spout. I might try it before opening a wall though. It might be worth a shot, or just a waste of money for the spout. Live and learn I guess. Thanks for all your help


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## RW Plumbing

mssp said:


> Is it the same with the tub spout? Only comes out of spout when mixed?


 No, it comes out of the spout all the time. But when the water mixes it comes out of the shower head as well as the spout.


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## Cal

I still think that valve is upside down ,,,, Have you look REALLY CLOSELY at the lettering imprinted on the body ?? The screws would still work if it was upside down .


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## rocksteady

RW Plumbing said:


> No, I don't think it's going to do me much good either to change a spout. I might try it before opening a wall though. It might be worth a shot, or just a waste of money for the spout. Live and learn I guess. Thanks for all your help


 
I wouldn't even bother with a new spout. Just pull the existing spout and try it with just the stub-out.





Paul


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## GREENPLUM

Cal said:


> I still think that valve is upside down ,,,, Have you look REALLY CLOSELY at the lettering imprinted on the body ?? The screws would still work if it was upside down .


 
the trim plate would be upside down

if he missed this.....we cannot help him


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## RW Plumbing

On a moen mixer, the lettering would be upside-down on the trim plate if it was upside down. The trim kit wouldn't work if the valve was put in incorrectly.


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## RealLivePlumber

With a Posi temp valve, the screws would be in the same orientation if the valve was installed upside down. 

You could still install the sleeve and escutchion, but the sleeve would not slide back the last quarter inch onto the locating boss on the valve. 

But, your first clue would be that the retaining clip is upside down:whistling2:


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## Ron

The letters SHWR and TUB is clearly seen on the body of the valve.


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## TheMaster

Moen clearly states in the installation instructions that the spout drop and "look-out" must be 1/2" copper or 1/2" ips. Whats the big mystery here?:laughing:

http://www.needplumbingsupplies.com/Moen/Specs/ins129a.pdf


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## mssp

I say the valve is upside down. cold alone and hot alone isnt enough to run through bypass port but when mixed it is


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## Cal

RealLivePlumber said:


> With a Posi temp valve, the screws would be in the same orientation if the valve was installed upside down.
> 
> You could still install the sleeve and escutchion, but the sleeve would not slide back the last quarter inch onto the locating boss on the valve.
> 
> But, your first clue would be that the retaining clip is upside down:whistling2:


SEE ,,,, Told ya so :whistling2::whistling2:


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## Optimus Primer

we had a douche of a plumber put 3 moen positemps in sideways. hot and cold lines went to tub and shower ports on the valve. 3 of them. And he was a plumber. 3


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## RW Plumbing

I tell you what, I'll post a picture of how it is installed. It will have the big UP labeled on the valve in the correct position. I think The Master has it correct. I used pex on the tub spout and it says in the manual thats a no-no. I will change that it it will all be good.


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## Cal

RW Plumbing said:


> I tell you what, I'll post a picture of how it is installed. It will have the big UP labeled on the valve in the correct position. I think The Master has it correct. I used pex on the tub spout and it says in the manual thats a no-no. I will change that it it will all be good.


 I hope you're right ,,, we'll see


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## Optimus Primer

I'm going to stick up for him on this but he already said the valve was right. The notch on the trim is up.


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## Pipe Rat

house plumber said:


> we had a douche of a plumber put 3 moen positemps in sideways. hot and cold lines went to tub and shower ports on the valve. 3 of them. And he was a plumber. 3


SIDEWAYS!!!!OMG


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## rocksteady

house plumber said:


> we had a douche of a plumber put 3 moen positemps in sideways. hot and cold lines went to tub and shower ports on the valve. 3 of them. And he was a plumber. 3


I had a helper do that once. I was repiping a house and his job for the morning was to remove the old valve and install a new Moen. He was fairly competent so he didn't need me to look over his shoulder, I was in the crawl space all day. He didn't notice it until he was going to put the clip in and noticed the slot was on the side. He spent the entire day on that valve. 








Paul


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## Pipe Rat

rocksteady said:


> I had a helper do that once. I was repiping a house and his job for the morning was to remove the old valve and install a new Moen. He was fairly competent so he didn't need me to look over his shoulder, I was in the crawl space all day. He didn't notice it until he was going to put the clip in and noticed the slot was on the side. *He spent the entire day on that valve. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paul


Ouch!!! That Hurts


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## RW Plumbing

I have never heard of piping a valve in sideways. That is pretty bad. I have had an apprentice run a water line through his A frame ladder. Between the rungs of the ladder he ran the pipe. He asked me" how did I do?" I said piping looks good but, how are you going to put your ladder away?

It took that for him to figure that out. Thats about the worst thing I've seen someone do.


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## Pipe Rat

RW Plumbing said:


> I have never heard of piping a valve in sideways. That is pretty bad. I have had an apprentice run a water line through his A frame ladder. Between the rungs of the ladder he ran the pipe. He asked me" how did I do?" I said piping looks good but, how are you going to put your ladder away?
> 
> It took that for him to figure that out. Thats about the worst thing I've seen someone do.


OH OH OH I have a better one than that. I had a fourth year apprentice come and get me to tell me he had a problem. (typical grocery store 15' high cieling) He cannot get his torch to burn up in the cieling???? He says there must not be enough oxygen up there. OKAY PLEASE DEMONSTRATE. he he. He lights the torch on the ground and shows me it burns fine. Then he climbs the ladder and the torch goes out by the time he gets to the top. Tell me what he was doing wrong. Hint: Its really Stupid


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## Optimus Primer

Piperat said:


> OH OH OH I have a better one than that. I had a fourth year apprentice come and get me to tell me he had a problem. (typical grocery store 15' high cieling) He cannot get his torch to burn up in the cieling???? He says there must not be enough oxygen up there. OKAY PLEASE DEMONSTRATE. he he. He lights the torch on the ground and shows me it burns fine. Then he climbs the ladder and the torch goes out by the time he gets to the top. Tell me what he was doing wrong. Hint: Its really Stupid


 
kinks his hose?


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## RW Plumbing

house plumber said:


> kinks his hose?


 I second that one. As long as it's an acetylene tank. I usually use a hand held MAPP torch for anything under 2"


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## Pipe Rat

Yep his ladder is on top of the hose. When no weight was on the ladder the torch burned fine. once he started climbing the ladder his weight pinched off the hose. Freakin dumbass i have many more stories. This could make for a good thread, hell I can probably fill in the first three pages myself. Good Times


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## Redwood

I'll place a tall stack of chips...
Heck I'll go all in on the pex on the drop to the spout being the problem...:whistling2:

Moen says don't...
Delta says don't...

Kohler says "Install a 7″ (17.8 cm) to 18″ (45.7 cm) straight pipe or straight
tube with single bath elbow between the valve and the
wall-mount spout."

Pretty much anything you see that has a diverter on the spout will see a problem with back-pressure caused by the smaller tubing and fittings of PEX from the valve to the tub spout...


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## kaplumber

I've had the same problem before with Moen and it was related to pressure. The previous post was right on trying a different spout. I had one where that wasn't an option and the shower backed up to an unfinished second floor area and we put a couple of 45's in the riser going to the shower head and created just enough resistance to stop the problem because it is basically the excess water not going out the spout.


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## PlungerJockey

I say it's the pex.

I don't install many Moens, but Delta says no pex, and the drop should be no less than 8 inches and no more than 18. They also recomend radius elbows. No drop earred ells.


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