# latest water heater news.....



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

my salesman told me this wednesday that LOCHINVAR has been bought out by A.O.Smith.....

I always thought that Lochinvar was a sub of Bradford white, but I guess that is no the case..

I do not think that this is a good thing


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## LEAD INGOT (Jul 15, 2009)

I had an outside salesman from a wholesaler bring an A.O. Smith rep for a meeting on thursday. He confirmed that AO bought Lochinvar. I hit him with the tirade of AO smith bashing and he tried to hold his ground, until I brought up American WH. I'm sick of this crap. F'ing salesmen. Useless product by useless people. He showed me new 90% plus equiptment that would never be brought into big box stores. I had to explain to him that Whirlpool and G.E. were already there.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Geeez Thats Too Bad...

I guess they will work very hard on turning that line into Shiot like the rest of the water heaters they make....


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## skitian (Apr 5, 2011)

I've been installing AO Smith for 7 years without any problems. What problems have you all been running into?


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## Plumb Bob (Mar 9, 2011)

skitian said:


> I've been installing AO Smith for 7 years without any problems. What problems have you all been running into?


Found this last week, it almost burnt the house down!


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## Plumb Bob (Mar 9, 2011)

Plumb Bob said:


> Found this last week, it almost burnt the house down!


Burnt a hole through the floor!


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## skitian (Apr 5, 2011)

Plumb Bob said:


> Found this last week, it almost burnt the house down!


Do you know what caused it? Looks like an early 90's late 80's model. Don't get me wrong, I'm not crusading for AO Smith, I'm just playing some devils advocate, and trying to educate myself on what are the best products. I don't get to choose what I instal at this company, but I will when I start my own.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Try out the Next Hybrid Gas water heater... :thumbup:


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Is there any info that proves that A O Smith is better or worse than other similar models. 


Last Year I personally installed 51 A.O Smith Water Heaters with ZERO call backs


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> my salesman told me this wednesday that LOCHINVAR has been bought out by A.O.Smith.....
> 
> I always thought that Lochinvar was a sub of Bradford white, but I guess that is no the case..
> 
> I do not think that this is a good thing





Redwood said:


> Geeez Thats Too Bad...
> 
> I guess they will work very hard on turning that line into Shiot like the rest of the water heaters they make....




That is indeed terrible news. I install Lochinvar with little problem, but knowing that A.O. Smith is taking over kinda seals the deal that I won't use them for much longer. 

While A.O. Smith has rolled out decent heaters, they are not without their problems this we are all well aware of. 

Given a Choice between Bradford White and A.O. Smith family of heaters its the BW all day everyday, with 0% possibility of getting behind A.O. Smith. 

Way I see it, its much easier to say "This is the number one heater for Plumbing Contractors." Then to say "This is a fine heater, A.O. is no longer having those problems anymore, the worked them all out."


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## skitian (Apr 5, 2011)

Indie said:


> That is indeed terrible news. I install Lochinvar with little problem, but knowing that A.O. Smith is taking over kinda seals the deal that I won't use them for much longer.
> 
> While A.O. Smith has rolled out decent heaters, they are not without their problems this we are all well aware of.
> 
> ...


What are the problems with AO Smith heaters that we are all "supposedly" aware of. I'm talking about AO Smith brand heaters, not whatever crap they sell to box stores. I haven't come across any issues myself, nor has my company, and no one has elaborated yet on the causes. I'm not saying there aren't problems, I just want someone to tell me what they are.


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## Plumb Bob (Mar 9, 2011)

skitian said:


> Do you know what caused it? Looks like an early 90's late 80's model. Don't get me wrong, I'm not crusading for AO Smith, I'm just playing some devils advocate, and trying to educate myself on what are the best products. I don't get to choose what I instal at this company, but I will when I start my own.


Gas in our town is a little hotter than the norm, being delivered @ 1300 btu's per cf. 
This is the second time in over 20 years that I have seen this happen. Not sure what brand the first one was.

The burner obviously fouled, not sure if someone else had previously worked on it. 

I install Bradfordwhite, they seem to work well, knock on wood.


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## skitian (Apr 5, 2011)

Plumb Bob said:


> Gas in our town is a little hotter than the norm, being delivered @ 1300 btu's per cf.
> This is the second time in over 20 years that I have seen this happen. Not sure what brand the first one was.
> 
> The burner obviously fouled, not sure if someone else had previously worked on it.
> ...


With a burner foul like that you would hope, haha hope, that it was cause a thermocouple foul and shut it down. Of course that's too much to ask for, I've only come across a handful of bad thermocouples that were caused by something else going bad, and those were on boilers instead of water heaters.


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## Plumb Bob (Mar 9, 2011)

skitian said:


> With a burner foul like that you would hope, haha hope, that it was cause a thermocouple foul and shut it down. Of course that's too much to ask for, I've only come across a handful of bad thermocouples that were caused by something else going bad, and those were on boilers instead of water heaters.


Water heater was still working when I arrived. Home owner called me as water heater was leaking and dripping through kitchen ceiling, that was there only clue. Water heater was sealed in a hall closet upstairs with a forced air unit, they never smelled anything burning. Charred wood was cold when I arrived.


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## skitian (Apr 5, 2011)

Plumb Bob said:


> Water heater was still working when I arrived. Home owner called me as water heater was leaking and dripping through kitchen ceiling, that was there only clue. Water heater was sealed in a hall closet upstairs with a forced air unit, they never smelled anything burning. Charred wood was cold when I arrived.


Weird and disturbing, sounds like they got off lucky.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

skitian said:


> What are the problems with AO Smith heaters that we are all "supposedly" aware of. I'm talking about AO Smith brand heaters, not whatever crap they sell to box stores. I haven't come across any issues myself, nor has my company, and no one has elaborated yet on the causes. I'm not saying there aren't problems, I just want someone to tell me what they are.


State Powervent: Faulty Gas valve
A.O. Smith 6 year old Powervent: Not firing right, cleaned flame sensor, and burner off. Got it working, but suspect faulty valve like the State. 

Older Powervents: Problems with intact air being covered with debris, causing failure.

Standard Gas: Thermocouplers, gas valves, early wearing down of components, leaks.

Its really tough to nail down as there is no one around who is installing them other than new construction. So the volume of A.O. is decreasing. Although the State and American are plentiful. 

Maybe its just my area. But if you sit the same aged Bradford next to A.O. there is little doubt as to what one looks to be in better condition.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

The FVIR design used by AO Smith and its subsidiaries just plain sux...

Bradford White's is the best....

Common sense says that when you put an air intake on the bottom of a water heater its gonna be a Hoover...:whistling2:

Next give it a small surface area and wonder why it clogs....


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## evan (Dec 10, 2010)

the company I work for pretty much exclusively installs a.o. smith water heaters. one problem I know they've been having is clogging of the ceramic screen at the bottom of the fvir models. I can't think of anything else that wouldn't befall any other manufacturer. (element, thermocouple etc.)


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*Smith heaters....*

what I understand is LOCHINVAR made Bradford 
whites commercial line for them... Now that they 
have been bought out by Smith, perhaps SMITH is 
attempting to get around all their trobles by incorporateing
 Lochinvars fvir patent design into their line of heaters.... 
and phaseing out the dog crap they presently sell with American
and Whirlpool .... that has to be their future plans

here is a pic of a A.O.Smith from 2010 it is EXACTLY
 the same design that American and Whirlpool have on
 their heaters... and that cant be good... *they have to fail eventually*

I think RHEEM is the best on the market at this time.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

I too install mostly A.O. Smith heaters with very little trouble. The last heater I replaced that had a fouled burner and soot up the front was a Bradford White. :whistling2:

I really have no stake in which brand is more popular. I'm just sayin' that I've had good luck with them and they're all prone to failure.









Paul


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

rocksteady said:


> I too install mostly A.O. Smith heaters with very little trouble. The last heater I replaced that had a fouled burner and soot up the front was a Bradford White. :whistling2:
> 
> I really have no stake in which brand is more popular. I'm just sayin' that I've had good luck with them and they're all prone to failure.
> 
> ...



Nobody ever said Bradford don't have problems. It might even be that since A.O. was the big dog for so long that the percentage of heaters they have out there is staggering compared to BW. 

The new A.O.'s may be fine, but that is not what my experience has been with ones 15 years and younger.


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## suzie (Sep 1, 2010)

I think a lot of companies use A.O. because of the made in the U.S. tagline. I've always like B.W. however I have been using Rheem like most companies here because of a company called Water heaters only they deliver and take the old one away and have good customer service and pricing is fair


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Plumb Bob said:


> Found this last week, it almost burnt the house down!


Was that the water heaters fault or because of a stopped up flue or lint in the gas/air mixing chamber?


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Plumb Bob said:


> Water heater was still working when I arrived. Home owner called me as water heater was leaking and dripping through kitchen ceiling, that was there only clue. Water heater was sealed in a hall closet upstairs with a forced air unit, they never smelled anything burning. Charred wood was cold when I arrived.


Was there fresh air coming into the closet? If not there is part of your problem.

Without it the gas/air misture was off causing it to burn yellow and roll out of the fire box and was probably worse when the heating unit was running.


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## Plumb Bob (Mar 9, 2011)

Associated Plum said:


> Was there fresh air coming into the closet? If not there is part of your problem.
> 
> Without it the gas/air misture was off causing it to burn yellow and roll out of the fire box and was probably worse when the heating unit was running.


Yes there is a high and a low combustion air inlets in the closet. I think that is why they did not smell any smoke, high combustion air opening is on ceiling it allowed smoke to draft.


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## OldPlumber (Aug 4, 2008)

A couple of things for me .. the gas water heater not on a stand/platform ? The combustible air vent in the picture looked pretty clogged up and stuck behind water heater ? The flames blowing out of the front and all of that soot is a sure indication of the lack of combustible air. I hope you at least cleaned out the vent(s) before installing the new one or you're just starting the process over. That process is that without proper combustible air the vent flu will soot up .. eventually the flames have no where else to go except out the front (with old style w/h's). With the new burners (sealed)/ thermocouples if it doesn't get enough air it will simply keep shutting itself down = one pissed off customer; and their thoughts are .. you created the problem .. fix it.


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## HOMER (Jun 5, 2011)

also, is that furnace an upflow ? or counterflow ?

Have you checked the furnace seal to the platform ?
on an upflow :when the fan is on the fan compartment is negatively pressured and will draw air in through that seam(unless its properly sealed )

(grasping at straws here)


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## Plumb Bob (Mar 9, 2011)

HOMER said:


> also, is that furnace an upflow ? or counterflow ?
> 
> Have you checked the furnace seal to the platform ?
> on an upflow :when the fan is on the fan compartment is negatively pressured and will draw air in through that seam(unless its properly sealed )
> ...


Yes it is upflow. I shut the fau down told the homeowner not to use it. It is original to the building making it over 40 years old. I gave them a price for a new one. They have till fall to swallow that pill.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

BACK TO FIRST POST !

BRADFORD WHITE MADE ALL LOCHINVAR RESIDENTIAL AND COMMERCIAL TANK WATER HEATERS

SO THEY HAVE NO FVIR SYSTEM TO BRING TO A. O. SMITH WTR/HTRS,

IN EXCHANGE LOCHINVAR MADE ALL BRADFORD WHITE BOILER SYSTEMS

BASICALLY THEY JUST CROSS LABELED THEIR PRODUCTS :thumbup:

BUT SEVERALLY YEARS AGO BRADFORD BROUGHT OUT LAARS BOILERS

SO I AM SURE THEY STARTED PROMOTING THE LAARS BRAND AS 

BRADFORD WHITE COMMERCIAL BOILERS,

BUT THEY WERE TWO SEPARATE COMPANY'S 

I KNOW ALL THIS BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN A LICENSED SERVICE AGENT 

FOR ALL THE ABOVE COMPANY'S IN THE 1990 THOUGH 2004 :thumbsup:

ALSO FOR STATE INDS, AND AMERICAN WATER HEATERS


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Seams like a good time to buy some bradford white stock


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

Had a lochinvar rep come see me today and he told me that bradford and white will still be making there water heaters for the next six months then there contract is finished.
thats when a o smith will be taking over the making of the lochinvar water heaters.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> what I understand is LOCHINVAR made Bradford
> whites commercial line for them... Now that they
> have been bought out by Smith, perhaps SMITH is
> attempting to get around all their trobles by incorporateing
> ...


So you are voting for the Mexican standard heaters huh?

I'll stick with American made thank you (well, where I can anyway).


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## Ashleymc (Nov 14, 2009)

*Dont care who owns who..just care what I own..*

Never had problems with either Lock or AO..Had alot with State.
Always considered AO as one of the best prob cause home cheapo never sold em..unless they are sold under a different name which i wouldnt doubt.:blink:
Nevertheless bad heaters put food on my table and gas in my truck!
Why worry ..be happy:jester:


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## spudwrench (Sep 15, 2009)

At Lowes yesterday, every Whirlpool on the shelf had the Honeywell "smart valve" that B-W has been using. Wonder if they make a retrofit kit? Going to the Brickyard, Mark?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*They are too stupid to get it right.....*

:laughing:


spudwrench said:


> At Lowes yesterday, every Whirlpool on the shelf had the Honeywell "smart valve" that B-W has been using. Wonder if they make a retrofit kit? Going to the Brickyard, Mark?


 
thanks for the information... I dont know what to think of them putting a honeywell valve on a peice of dog crap like the Whirlpool water heater.....

*changeing the gas controll is not going to keep lint from clogging up the air intake under the unit.... unless they found the brains to make a change to that problem.... which I doubt*

If this is all true, it looks like they are trying to modify their design to me.... I honestly doubt that they did good research and development when making this decision, so it will probably all be just another disaster in the making...:laughing:

Now that they have incorporated Lochinvar into their family of junk, they are probably going to eventually dump the Whirlpool design and switch to the Locivinar air intake......

I get the sense that this is all legal manuvering to keep from having a massive heater recall on their original disaster since 2001.

that is just speculation....

but I can bet its still a peice of junk


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> If this is all true, it looks like they are trying to modify their design to me.... I honestly doubt that they did good research and development when making this decision, so it will probably all be just another disaster in the making...:laughing:
> 
> Now that they have incorporated Lochinvar into their family of junk, they are probably going to eventually dump the Whirlpool design and switch to the Locivinar air intake......


Nope!

Mark, Bradford White made the Lochinvar Water Heaters....

AO Smith is going to turn them into Whirlpoo's....

AO Smith didn't get anything except a brand they are going to ruin....:laughing:


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Actually American has been using the Honeywell gas valve years before Bradford White. Only thing is that it was not used on all models just one from what i remember. I first saw one of those honeywell valves on a whirlpool water heater like 5 years ago.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*do you think???*



Redwood said:


> Nope!
> 
> Mark, Bradford White made the Lochinvar Water Heaters....
> 
> ...


I have heard that Lochinvar made Bradfrds commercial line
and Bradford made Lochinvars residential line...


I can guarantee to that whatever is going on behind the scenes will be dumped on all of us by the spring of next year.....

I cant wait...


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