# Eternal Hybrid Install



## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Just installed this fantastic Eternal Hybrid 195S water heater . Removed a 75 gal /gas power vent with an 80 gal electric storage ,,,, both got blown out in our terrible storms couple weeks ago . 
With the attached grundfos pump ,,, this baby is handling a 10,000 sq ft house and has made the customer very happy ! :thumb up:

Am looking forward to installing many more !


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

looks great, 

I love to install one, there just not around here.


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## SHAUN C (Feb 16, 2011)

Looks good, clean work. What kind of gas piping is that?


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

SHAUN C said:


> Looks good, clean work. What kind of gas piping is that?


CounterStrike CSST, read all about it so you can laugh at what alot of zoners say about it 

http://www.tracpipe.com/CSST_Gas_Pipe_Products/CounterStrike_CSST/


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Its made by gastite isnt it? sorry they make Flamesheild! looks good seem popular!


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Uh ,,, guys ,,, The heater is the real subject . The gas pipe is just what I could use / get .

This thing is BAD A** !!!


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Nice.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Cal said:


> Uh ,,, guys ,,, The heater is the real subject . The gas pipe is just what I could use / get .
> 
> This thing is BAD A** !!!


 Go ahead! Tell us about it!:yes:


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Where are the isolation valves? Do those require an expansion tank? Why the pump on the hot side? I have yet to see one. I am not critiquing just asking.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

I went to the presentation a while ago . It hit me as a great variation / combination of tank & tankless . Can I tell you all the working parts ,wiring ,variable settings ,,, No ,not yet . However I can tell y'all The folks at Eternal have seemed to really think this thing through ! 
It has a 2 gallon holding ,pre tank inside , eliminates cold water sandwich . The way it heats water is different from tankless running water through tons of tubeing . The flow rate while running 2-3 faucets , or showers does not drop off ! That is GREAT ! 
Check it out for yourselves http://eternalwaterheater.com/

As far as the pump goes ,, My Eternal Rep recommends this particular Grundfos pump 
system ( Model UP15-10SU7P/TLC ) to work best with my application . Easy hook up , no need for tearing up the customers house while running a re circ line . AND IT WORKS GREAT ! 

I've installed a lot of tankless ,,,, These are my new "tankless " my .02


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Gettinit said:


> Where are the isolation valves? Do those require an expansion tank? Why the pump on the hot side? I have yet to see one. I am not critiquing just asking.


 You can install an expansion tank ,,but it was not necessary . Isolation valves ?? What for ? It's a water heater . Pump on the hot side because thats the way the Grundfos spec calls for it in conjunction with the connection fitting placed under the farthest fixture away .


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Cal said:


> You can install an expansion tank ,,but it was not necessary . Isolation valves ?? What for ? It's a water heater . Pump on the hot side because thats the way the Grundfos spec calls for it in conjunction with the connection fitting placed under the farthest fixture away .


Isolation valves to clean the heat exchanger. Gotcha on the pump kit you went with.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Gettinit said:


> Isolation valves to clean the heat exchanger. Gotcha on the pump kit you went with.


 Check out their technology section on the web site . explains how it works better then my old fingers can :laughing:


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Cal said:


> Check out their technology section on the web site . explains how it works better then my old fingers can :laughing:


If it has the same type of coil the standard tankless units have then you should replace those ball valves with isolation valves. I assume you willing be working on it, do yourself the favor.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Looks pretty good where is it made?


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Gettinit said:


> If it has the same type of coil the standard tankless units have then you should replace those ball valves with isolation valves. I assume you willing be working on it, do yourself the favor.


 Not the same coil system .


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

pilot light said:


> Looks pretty good where is it made?


 Company is based in Texas . A lot of parts are USA made :thumbsup: 

Grand Hall is the father company ,, There is Grand Hall USA & Grand Hall Europe


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## SHAUN C (Feb 16, 2011)

Done a few eternals, and a bunch of service for grand hall, mainly replacing mother boards.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Cal said:


> Company is based in Texas . A lot of parts are USA made :thumbsup:
> 
> Grand Hall is the father company ,, There is Grand Hall USA & Grand Hall Europe


 I like this because North america is starting too build some great products which are on par with the manufacturers abroad! Think I will give them a try! Thanks great thread!:thumbsup:


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

How do you get to the burner and tubes?


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Gettinit said:


> How do you get to the burner and tubes?


 Good Lord man ,,, RELAX !! :laughing::laughing: Don't be replacing things yet !

Opened up ,, the unit is not that "packed" . Everything appears to be changeable ,,, hoping that i'll never have too . 

Oh ,,, one interesting thing ,, They DO NOT recommend using dielectric unions on these units . And I forgot the reasoning on that ! sorry


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Gettinit said:


> How do you get to the burner and tubes?


 
go to there website , read ALL the info , look at the pic.

educate yourself as much as you can then ask questions


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Gettinit said:


> How do you get to the burner and tubes?


 Had to be a lot easier than those pos Junkirk/Bryant boiler.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

I do like the concept of the heat exchanger was it stainless ?


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Cal said:


> Good Lord man ,,, RELAX !! :laughing::laughing: Don't be replacing things yet !
> 
> Opened up ,, the unit is not that "packed" . Everything appears to be changeable ,,, hoping that i'll never have too .
> 
> Oh ,,, one interesting thing ,, They DO NOT recommend using dielectric unions on these units . And I forgot the reasoning on that ! sorry


Probably don't recommend them because they all seem to plug themselves up within a year. Sorry about all the questions, just interested. I try not to install anything I would regret to work on.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Gettinit said:


> Probably don't recommend them because they all seem to plug themselves up within a year. Sorry about all the questions, just interested. I try not to install anything I would regret to work on.


 Buddy ,, you are skipping a great product . I understand ,, ya gotta do what works for you .


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Cal said:


> Buddy ,, you are skipping a great product . I understand ,, ya gotta do what works for you .


Sorry, working off the phone...I meant that's why they didn't want you to use the dielectric unions. I haven't done any research on this product. I have not written them off or heard anything good/bad about it until now.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

pilot light said:


> i do like the concept of the heat exchanger was it stainless ?


oh yeah ,, and heavy duty !!


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Gettinit said:


> Sorry, working off the phone...I meant that's why they didn't want you to use the dielectric unions. I haven't done any research on this product. I have not written them off or heard anything good/bad about it until now.


 Oh ,, oops ! My bad ! yeah the dielectrics


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

What does it cost! I know cost and prices so we will say cost!:yes:


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Cal said:


> Company is based in Texas . A lot of parts are USA made :thumbsup:
> 
> Grand Hall is the father company ,, There is Grand Hall USA & Grand Hall Europe


No it's made & assembled 100% in Taiwan, for Grand Hall (the BBQ Co.)


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

pilot light said:


> What does it cost! I know cost and prices so we will say cost!:yes:


PM'd you


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

ZL700 said:


> No it's made & assembled 100% in Taiwan, for Grand Hall (the BBQ Co.)


 Are you sure ? That is not the info that is out there


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

A 10,000 sq ft house has to have at least 5 baths, after the 1.7 gallon tank is expelled in seconds, how does it supply of 5-6 GPM at a 60 to 70 degree temp rise satisfy the domestic loads? 

Just 2 - 4 people in that big home?


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Cal said:


> Are you sure ? That is not the info that is out there


Yes 100%, I've toured the Garland, Texas facility, warehouse and headquarters along with having met the Korean designer who is Paul Homes dad (eternal vp of sales and marketing).


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

ZL700 said:


> Yes 100%, I've toured the Garland, Texas facility, warehouse and headquarters along with having met the Korean designer who is Paul Homes dad (eternal vp of sales and marketing)
> 
> Good luck with circuit board and heat exchanger


Dang, talk about pissing on his day...why don't you like it?


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

pilot light said:


> I like this because North america is starting too build some great products which are on par with the manufacturers abroad! Think I will give them a try! Thanks great thread!:thumbsup:


There are no US made/assemble gas-fired tankless yet, with the exception to a new product out of Illinios (Intellihot) but they are only assembled here and not in mass distribution yet, if they make it.

Some day AO Smith may be assembling here but the parts will still come from Takagi Japan.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

ZL700 said:


> There are no US made/assemble gas-fired tankless yet, with the exception to a new product out of Illinios (Intellihot) but they are only assembled here and not in mass distribution yet, if they make it.
> 
> Some day AO Smith may be assembling here but the parts will still come from Takagi Japan.


 What about my fav the lochinvar armor! :yes:


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Gettinit said:


> Dang, talk about pissing on his day...why don't you like it?


Not that I don't like it, just all need to know its another Asian tankless type product, soon DOE will disallow them calling it a hybrid, since it doesnt meet storage requirements and it's in it's 4th generation product trying to fix its past problems. Great concept but always to go on design and durability.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

pilot light said:


> What about my fav the lochinvar armor! :yes:


Nice$$$$$$$$$$$
But not a residential tankless


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

ZL700 said:


> Nice$$$$$$$$$$$
> But not a residential tankless


For a really big house though! The ZL is pretty cool! Too bad you cant hang it on a wall! :laughing:


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

pilot light said:


> For a really big house though! The ZL is pretty cool! Too bad you cant hang it on a wall! :laughing:


If that is the down shot burners they are made poorly....sorry. Parts are way to expensive. They don't ask much with the purchase then rape you on the parts. At least JMPleasants does.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Gettinit said:


> If that is the down shot burners they are made poorly....sorry. Parts are way to expensive. They don't ask much with the purchase then rape you on the parts. At least JMPleasants does.


The 319L Poland made fire tube heat exchangers Lochinvar (AO Smith) used here are way better then the Lochinvar still used Giannoni heat exchangers


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

The poland is down fired!


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

ZL700 said:


> A 10,000 sq ft house has to have at least 5 baths, after the 1.7 gallon tank is expelled in seconds, how does it supply of 5-6 GPM at a 60 to 70 degree temp rise satisfy the domestic loads?
> 
> Just 2 - 4 people in that big home?


That is correct ,, 2-4 people in that big ole house and the Eternal is giving em all they want ! . If and when the time comes and the need is there ,,I can easily pipe another one in there . 

Was not 100% sure about were they were made ,,, If you say you've toured the place and it all comes from overseas ,,, I cannot dispute ya . I have not been there . 
Would LOVE to see all things USA made , I'm not in charge of that ,, I just know I really like this product and what ( hope & pray ) it will do for my customers . 

Don't worry ,, no body pissing on my day ! Been at this WAY TOO LONG to think that anything is perfect . :whistling2:


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

CAL,

In Virginia were they looking for a rebate on the Eternal install? 

Reason I ask, Eternal along with Noritz are the only tankless products not certified or listed by AHRI which disqualifies them from many, be careful.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Good Looking set up.

Ok are my eyes failing,,,,, Are there unions on the top? I see your statement about not using di-electric but my poor eyes don't see any. If not there should be (at least here in Illinois). With a circ system what about the checks?, Or since I am not completely up to speed on this system are there checks built in

The di-electric may be answered by the stainless steel tank, which would negate the dissimilar metals reaction. At worse case other type W.H. you may use a brass union instead of di-electric which will not react to cast or steel.

Off the beatin track here, just the Codey in me. The kraft faced (paper) insulation exposed I assume is in a basement. This should not be left uncovered. The flame spread rating is not low enough with the tar backing if this gets started will result in a disaster. Should be drywalled over or a unfaced insulation with a covering like "Membrane" from Certainteed.

"Just Sayin"


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

You think the paper on the back of the insulation is that much worse than the paper on sheetrock in case there was a major fire? I assume they have a zero clearance to combustibles.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

ZL700 said:


> CAL,
> 
> In Virginia were they looking for a rebate on the Eternal install?
> 
> Reason I ask, Eternal along with Noritz are the only tankless products not certified or listed by AHRI which disqualifies them from many, be careful.


Z ,, I think the state does offer because of energy star rating . Eternal sends the owner a $200 rebate on this model ( 195S) .


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

GAN said:


> Good Looking set up.
> 
> Ok are my eyes failing,,,,, Are there unions on the top? I see your statement about not using di-electric but my poor eyes don't see any. If not there should be (at least here in Illinois). With a circ system what about the checks?, Or since I am not completely up to speed on this system are there checks built in
> 
> ...


Jesus newbie ,,, WTH ? HAHA! jk 
Good call on those items . The insulation is the least of my worries , that thing doesn't get hot enough on the outside to even heat up your hands on a cold day . The unions ,,, yeah i shoulda used some brass or copper ones .
These folks had been without hot water for 10 days ,,, Got this thing done @ 11:55 pm last tueday night . Was a long day ,, still need to correct it . The stainless steel takes care of any dissimilar issues ,, and no were is there any mention of a check valve with this pump system . 
OK ? Can i go to work now ?? LOL !


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Gettinit said:


> You think the paper on the back of the insulation is that much worse than the paper on sheetrock in case there was a major fire? I assume they have a zero clearance to combustibles.


 
Not the paper. If you check the drywall is considered as "Non cubustible" because the amount of paper compared to the mass of the gypsum plaster. It does not need to type X to be considered that. Type X is 5/8" with a hair ingrained in it and has a longer burn through time.

The issue with the "Kraft faced" insulation is the tar that is used as the moisture barrier on the back of the paper, which gives it a very high flame spread rating.

@Cal . ( Newbie here, in the field since "77") Not that any of your work would create a heat issue. just a blanket obsevation for fire related issues. Not that a mention was made about checks in the instructions, just that if the pump is on don't you think there may be a back pressure acting against the cold inlet that if cold water is drawn from somewhere you may get some movement backing up in the system.
I had always put a check in the cold inlet to the W.H. before the return line and a expansion tank since I closed the system. In the good ole days,,,,,,


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Cal said:


> ~snip~
> water is different from tankless running water through tons of tubeing . The flow rate while running 2-3 faucets , or showers does not drop off ! That is GREAT !
> ~snip~


 
Yes the flow rate does not drop off, but the tempature will. Unlike a tankless unit where it regulates the flow and maintains the water tempature.

If you want a true hybrid get the AO Smith or State (they are the same) http://www.statewaterheaters.com/prod/residential/res_hybrid_gas_premier.html


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> Yes the flow rate does not drop off, but the tempature will. Unlike a tankless unit where it regulates the flow and maintains the water tempature.
> 
> If you want a true hybrid get the AO Smith or State (they are the same) http://www.statewaterheaters.com/prod/residential/res_hybrid_gas_premier.html


But be careful, these units do not meet or have Energy Star and can get you in hot water with lack of rebates or Energy Star Home certification.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> But be careful, these units do not meet or have Energy Star and can get you in hot water with lack of rebates or Energy Star Home certification.


That and they dont work and make customers mad at you.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

ZL700 said:


> But be careful, these units do not meet or have Energy Star and can get you in hot water with lack of rebates or Energy Star Home certification.


My customers are looking for a good supply of hot water to fill their soaker tub. I have not had any concerned about rebates.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

easttexasplumb said:


> That and they dont work and make customers mad at you.


Those AO Smith HYB-90N, State GPH-90N, American GH-90NG, GSW GX-90N

hybrid units have had their product issues, guessing you experienced them too.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> Those hybrid units have had their product issues, guessing you experienced them too.


I put in one of them, it was the first and last one I am installing. :furious:


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

ZL700 said:


> Those AO Smith HYB-90N, State GPH-90N, American GH-90NG, GSW GX-90N
> 
> hybrid units have had their product issues, guessing you experienced them too.


 The only issue I ran into was the unit not being properly calibrated. Other than that I never ran into any issues with these. 

Instead of being vauge about so called issues, why not tell us what they are, or what you have seen.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

SewerRatz said:


> The only issue I ran into was the unit not being properly calibrated. Other than that I never ran into any issues with these.
> 
> Instead of being vauge about so called issues, why not tell us what they are, or what you have seen.


I have seen people try to fix them without a meter, without a monometer...:laughing: I have seen people try swapping parts until they "fixed it". :furious: 

I cannot see that being a problem with the people here though.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> The only issue I ran into was the unit not being properly calibrated. Other than that I never ran into any issues with these.
> 
> Instead of being vauge about so called issues, why not tell us what they are, or what you have seen.


http://www.plumbingzone.com/f25/pita-hybrid-13108/

I was mainly having a problem with it heating the water. The pros who made the device were no help because there was no code to tell them about. I went through all of the proceedures of testing gas pressure and finally we decided that it was a POS.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

easttexasplumb said:


> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f25/pita-hybrid-13108/
> 
> I was mainly having a problem with it heating the water. The pros who made the device were no help because there was no code to tell them about. I went through all of the proceedures of testing gas pressure and finally we decided that it was a POS.


*Gettinit, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:*

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

:furious::furious: WTF?


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Sorry its posted in the Lounge, keep posting.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

easttexasplumb said:


> Sorry its posted in the Lounge, keep posting.


? Posting :blink:?


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Gettinit said:


> ? Posting :blink:?


You need 750 posts to get into the business lounge portion of the zone.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> The only issue I ran into was the unit not being properly calibrated. Other than that I never ran into any issues with these.
> 
> Instead of being vauge about so called issues, why not tell us what they are, or what you have seen.


All products will have problems at one time or another, Im not the type that calls a product out as junk as others so quickly will. For example, Navien takes a ribbing often but last I checked they are over 60%+ of The North American Condensing tankless sales and # 2 or 3 in tankless product sales. It's doesn't surprise me their troubles or problems aren't brought up, they have a big target on their back.

But as far as the hybrid unit? Made in china, there will be problems mainly in controls and burner system. Word is its being discontinued as AO smith hopes to fully take over Takagi and phase them out entirely. 

I'm involved in AHRI and here the inside scoops, efficiency testing failures such as Noritz (whoops), product shipments, etc.

I think Rinnnai, Noritz, Takagi, Navien, 1/2 of the Bosch line and some rheem units are good, the others have aways to go. Eternal pulled out of commercial? Hmmmmm.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

GAN said:


> Not the paper. If you check the drywall is considered as "Non cubustible" because the amount of paper compared to the mass of the gypsum plaster. It does not need to type X to be considered that. Type X is 5/8" with a hair ingrained in it and has a longer burn through time.
> 
> The issue with the "Kraft faced" insulation is the tar that is used as the moisture barrier on the back of the paper, which gives it a very high flame spread rating.
> 
> ...


 I meant Newbie ,,, having only 13 posts . Got your point on the paper ,,:bangin:


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