# When do you bring in equipment?



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

I was sent on a job today, where we needed to install a 6" Backwater valve. The boss does not like to use equipment when digging, unless it is absolutely necessary(according to him). It is not unusual for us to dig up 3' deep, but sometimes(like today), he asks me to dig deeper or long distances. Having worked at a different company that loved using equipment, I thought I would ask what others do, and how you decided when equipment should be brought in. It was too damn hot to snap pics, but I go two.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

If it's deeper than a foot, I'm bringing in the hoe. 

I am SO over hand digging anymore. 

One good thing though, I guess I woulda been paying for that wire.......


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## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

if the boss doesnt own the equipment it aint worth renting for a job that small.

RLP, thats why you get the kid to do it


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

We don't use backwater valves much. Do they have built in C/O's ? I would have priced it using my excavator, Then had you hand dig and stood there and told you to hurry. Yala! Yala! (hurry! hurry !)


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

slickrick said:


> We don't use backwater valves much. Do they have built in C/O's ? I would have priced it using my excavator, Then had you hand dig and stood there and told you to hurry. Yala! Yala! (hurry! hurry !)


That's funny stuff...!!:thumbsup:


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

:laughing: At least it was easy digging, no rock, roots, dead animal bones to deal with, 3' down, what more can you ask for.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*I am over it too*



RealLivePlumber said:


> If it's deeper than a foot, I'm bringing in the hoe.
> 
> I am SO over hand digging anymore.
> 
> One good thing though, I guess I woulda been paying for that wire.......


I am so over it too...

My father acted like he was *frigging ground hog* in his day and would dig complete water servics by hand.....

it got totally insane after a while and started to become sort of "manhood contest" for him to prove to everyone
what good excersize it was to dig all day long.....:blink::blink:


he went out one day and dug 4 foot deep hole to get to a 
well line before the rest of the men could get to the job to help... he wanted to prove that digging was easy and not a big deal to all the employees, 

the trouble was he was in such a big hurry to make this impression that he dug on the wrong corner of the home:laughing::laughing::laughing:




That was pretty much the last of his digging adventures...:yes:


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## luv2plumb (Apr 30, 2010)

When I first got started we use to dig everything by hand unless it was site utility work. Wasn't uncommon for us to dig up a sewer main 5' deep to do a tie-in. Now that I'm the boss I would have to agree with Slick's last statement.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Digging?

Isn't that what apprentices and new guys are for?:laughing:


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## pdxplumber (Nov 21, 2009)

You call that a hole? I don't dig like that anymore, but in my day I could move some dirt. Yes, I'm bragging. Maybe you should lay off the beer and switch to wine?:laughing:


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

pdxplumber said:


> You call that a hole? I don't dig like that anymore, but in my day I could move some dirt. Yes, I'm bragging. Maybe you should lay off the beer and switch to wine?:laughing:


Yes, I believe by definition that is a hole. I didn't say it was a big hole. With the statement about wine, I would call you a hole too, just a different type.:innocent:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)




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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)




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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

I'll give those unshielded couplings a year, maybe two, 5 tops before they shift and that line starts backing up.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

I lived in Meridian for a couple of years when I was a kid.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

smellslike$tome said:


> I'll give those unshielded couplings a year, maybe two, 5 tops before they shift and that line starts backing up.


Maybe the way you install them. The installer makes all the difference in the world. The dirt under the C.O tee was not disturbed and the dirt that was disturbed was packed with the business end of a sledgehammer.......its not moving.:whistling2: Its only about 30" deep:laughing:

The pvc was cut very very tight....the bands just seal it...doesn't hold it together Have a good'n:thumbsup:


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## copperhead (Dec 26, 2009)

It all depends on age. When your 19, 25,28, no problem, you can dig sun up to sun down, and wake up and do it again the next day:boxing:. But when you start hitting your thirtys and fortys, that one day of busting your a$$ with that shovel can haunt you for the rest of your life.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

copperhead said:


> It all depends on age. When your 19, 25,28, no problem, you can dig sun up to sun down, and wake up and do it again the next day:boxing:. But when you start hitting your thirtys and fortys, that one day of busting your a$$ with that shovel can haunt you for the rest of your life.



That must be it. Now that I am in the middle thirty range, I don't want to work that hard. Still I think anything below 3 feet needs equipment, unless the ground is soft. I still have side effects in my hand, due using the spade to chop into the ground.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

copperhead said:


> It all depends on age. When your 19, 25,28, no problem, you can dig sun up to sun down, and wake up and do it again the next day:boxing:. But when you start hitting your thirtys and fortys, that one day of busting your a$$ with that shovel can haunt you for the rest of your life.





Indie said:


> That must be it. Now that I am in the middle thirty range, I don't want to work that hard. Still I think anything below 3 feet needs equipment, unless the ground is soft. I still have side effects in my hand, due using the spade to chop into the ground.


Good grief guy's.:no:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I sure dont like diggin deeper than 2 feet in Florida sand at near 57...maybe I am wimp..get the young toads on it.

Renting equipment here can be figured in pretty easy ...but for just a cleanout I dont see it.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

slickrick said:


> Good grief guy's.:no:


Look, I understand that there are many who have had to do much more digging and all that. I assume this is the same generation that had to walk uphill both ways to school in two feet of snow. With that being said, just because that was the way it used to be done, doesn't mean it is the smartest way. If we all keep the attitude that if it works why change, then we should go back to using rocks and sticks like our ancestors did.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Indie said:


> Look, I understand that there are many who have had to do much more digging and all that. I assume this is the same generation that had to walk uphill both ways to school in two feet of snow. With that being said, just because that was the way it used to be done, doesn't mean it is the smartest way. If we all keep the attitude that if it works why change, then we should go back to using rocks and sticks like our ancestors did.


 Does that mean we can't use the camera (SeeSnake) anymore?
:laughing:


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Does that mean we can't use the camera (SeeSnake) anymore?
> :laughing:


RLP, the guy I work for, won't buy a camera, he finds it hard to justify the expense. We still use a Fisher Locator.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

He must know his shiot, I use fisher too. :laughing:


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

slickrick said:


> He must know his shiot, I use fisher too. :laughing:


I could tell by posts, that there must be some similarity. He does know his shiot, and can probably fix damn near anything, but even he will tell you that he is so far behind he may never catch up. Believe me it is a concern to him. With all the new technology, products, and new methods he is falling further and further behind. He also admitted that his customers are dying off, and is not sure how to get new ones. We just launched a website, and due to the [email protected] buy out, we are getting new phones.
It wasn't that long ago that we still used bagphones and pagers.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Indie said:


> I could tell by posts, that there must be some similarity. He does know his shiot, and can probably fix damn near anything, but even he will tell you that he is so far behind he may never catch up. Believe me it is a concern to him. With all the new technology, products, and new methods he is falling further and further behind. He also admitted that his customers are dying off, and is not sure how to get new ones. We just launched a website, and due to the [email protected] buy out, we are getting new phones.
> It wasn't that long ago that we still used bagphones and pagers.


You guy's have to realize that technology cost MONEY. I am one of the inspector gadgets of the plumbing world. I am a smaller operator than some and I have an excavator, camera, locator etc. But it takes a long time to get your money back, (if ever) before it is time to replace it. When you have equipment it needs to be working EVERYDAY or it is hard to justify. I understand you guys view and sympathise with the owner. It is easy to say we need this and that, but paying for it is scary. Come up with some solid ideas to help him justify the added expense and all of you will benefit.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

slickrick said:


> You guy's have to realize that technology cost MONEY. I am one of the inspector gadgets of the plumbing world. I am a smaller operator than some and I have an excavator, camera, locator etc. But it takes a long time to get your money back, (if ever) before it is time to replace it. When you have equipment it needs to be working EVERYDAY or it is hard to justify. I understand you guys view and sympathise with the owner. It is easy to say we need this and that, but paying for it is scary. Come up with some solid ideas to help him justify the added expense and all of you will benefit.



We have discussed this extensively, and I have even argued against buying certain things. No sense in getting a 10,000 camera if you are not going to dig up and repair lines. That is one reason we don't have one, he is not interested in digging sewer lines, however, we could get quite a few dig jobs if we wanted.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

One of the major reasons small contractors fail is due to purchasing equipment that takes too long to pay off. Many try and justify it as a write off but, you need to make money before you can write off money. An apprentice or two can dig a hole a hell of a lot cheaper than buying a back hoe that may only get used a couple times a month. Even rental cost is high because you still need to pay an operator. Too damn much inventory will also kill you.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Indie said:


> We have discussed this extensively, and I have even argued against buying certain things. No sense in getting a 10,000 camera if you are not going to dig up and repair lines. That is one reason we don't have one, he is not interested in digging sewer lines, however, we could get quite a few dig jobs if we wanted.


I use my camera and locators quite often. Now I would feel lost without them. The camera and locator can be a good investment IF you can sell line replacements on a regular basis. Depending on how long it takes to get to a local rental yard and back, the C/O and backwater valve installs may be hard to price high enough to justify the time to pick up a excavator. Us smaller shops need all the $2000.00 - $4000.00 little jobs we can get. Regular service work pays the bills, the replacements put extra money for growth in the bank.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

I'll throw this out there.

We had a water line to replace for a church, they did not want us to cut the roots of their 30-40 pecan trees and there were irrigation and gas lines everywhere.

Well it was only 450' of ditch 18" deep and a hole 8'x8'x8' to access the penetration where it entered the bldg...........*We hand dug the entire thing*. 2 men and 4 days later, we had it done.

The way I figured it was, 2 men @ $10. per hour = $640.00, this was a no brainer for me. We didn't break any irrigation lines or damage any major roots.


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## bartnc37 (Feb 24, 2009)

I assume the people you hired to dig those trenches for $10 an hour were fully documented legal citizens with workmans comp right.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

bartnc37 said:


> I assume the people you hired to dig those trenches for $10 an hour were fully documented legal citizens with workmans comp right.


They are my employees. You know what they say about assuming.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

bartnc37 said:


> I assume the people you hired to dig those trenches for $10 an hour were fully documented legal citizens with workmans comp right.


I know Choc, already responded, but this is a good point. I know many owners that want to ***** and complain about money, and how illegals, and in our area Amish come in with cut throat rates. But, when it comes to profit, they are willing to turn a blind eye. I just assume everyone on here is an Honest, and legit owner(if they own).


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## bartnc37 (Feb 24, 2009)

I also heard the one about where there's smoke there's fire. I don't know, maybe your cost of living down there is rock bottom but here you cant find a kid to carry pipe fittings to you for 10 bucks an hour much less run the end of a shovel all day. And lets face it Wisconsin isn't exactly high roller territory.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*no way would I do that to my guys....*



Choctaw said:


> I'll throw this out there.
> 
> We had a water line to replace for a church, they did not want us to cut the roots of their 30-40 pecan trees and there were irrigation and gas lines everywhere.
> 
> ...


 
I have dug a few long ones and I wont do them again,
and my employees dont need the exercise either,,,

As I stated earlier, my father needed to prove something to the world about digging, 

the only problem with doing this is eventually you can drive all your good employees away if you get into the habit of makeing digging into a "manhood contest" 

then when your employees all get fed up and leave you , then you get to do all that FUN digging yourself..:laughing::laughing:


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

bartnc37 said:


> I also heard the one about where there's smoke there's fire. I don't know, maybe your cost of living down there is rock bottom but here you cant find a kid to carry pipe fittings to you for 10 bucks an hour much less run the end of a shovel all day. And lets face it Wisconsin isn't exactly high roller territory.


I guess if you want to call me a liar, then you should just come out and say it. Don't hold back, bud.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

The hole in the pic's I posted was dug and covered up in 1.5 hrs by a 23 yr old carpenters helper......cost=40.00 

My job was to hold the fan and do the pipe work and make sure the hole was not OVER-excavated.

I charged 3 hrs with travel at 180.00 an hr......90.00 for each man. + material.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

Choctaw said:


> I guess if you want to call me a liar, then you should just come out and say it. Don't hold back, bud.


 I don't think he was calling you a liar, but only he can answer that. But I myself was amazed that you could get $10 per hr guys to dig, at a productive rate, & for so many days in a row. I can't imagine anyone digging for 8hrs, & making only $80, before taxes. It's hard for me to get someone with a heartbeat for $18 to $20 or more, per hr. Now someone with a brain, that be really expensive:yes:.
I'm with you though, on the hand digging versus equipment use, & rental.
I just completed a replacement of a small sewer line, that was for the sump pump discharge. The old pvc sewer had collapsed, was full of mud, & heavy roots, & went through the customers backyard, all the way to lot line. There was massive roots from trees, but also every underground utility you could imagine, we had to cross. So we took our time, & hand dug the whole thing. Tie in was 5ft deep, and most of trench for about 75' was 4ft deep. Yard was also very wet from sump overflow dumping out next to house. If I would of had a backhoe in there, it would have been a mess, & impossible to not only miss the utilities, but the lawn sprinkler pipes as well.
This pipe also went under a deck for about 15ft, so we removed boards, & hand dug between the support beams. Took alot longer, but when I was done, there was no costly utility repair bills or lawsuits, & minimal landscape damage. Just my $.02


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

These guys were not hired as plumbers.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

How 'bout this one

union LABORERS in the Chicago area are on strike.

they are looking for a 5% raise each year for the next three years.

total compensation.....................hold on to your coffee


$57.37 per hour 

and a lot of this work is holding a shovel.

I think I'm gonna apply.:furious:

did I mention that this was for LABORERS.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

PLUMB TIME said:


> How 'bout this one
> 
> union LABORERS in the Chicago area are on strike.
> 
> ...


Now if anyone still wonders what is wrong this country, I believe your post has cleared up all doubt. 
It seems that not to many people want to work and get paid accordingly to their skill level. Seriously, I might complain about digging a few holes, but I could not expect that kind of pay for digging holes. I live in a more rural area, and as a licensed plumber, I do not receive that level of compensation.


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## bartnc37 (Feb 24, 2009)

Sorry there Choctaw wasn't trying to fire ya up, if you can get it done in that neck of the woods for those prices then more power to ya. Just saying around here when you hear about a deal like that more often than not involves a guy named nacho.


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