# Have you seen this?



## ActionDan (Dec 14, 2011)

Have you guys seen this? Told by the bossman a few weeks ago to keep some of these on the truck. Finally had to install one last night. 

HO was complaining about not having enough hot water. Apparently a 50 gal tank isn't enough for a family of four. Since I can't say bathe less, thought I'd give this a try. Easy install. Maybe about 20 minutes. I was reading up on it and it's suppose to increase their hot water capacity by 50% by storing the water at a hotter temp so you end up using less hot water. Just thought it looked kinda cool.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

I see the boss likes the hack brand. Honeywell makes a nicer unit. Some Bradford White models come with them.

BTW, I gotta ask, whats all that hack work piping in the back ground?
CPVC, Sch 40, Brass, Black, Galvanized, only think left out was Sch 80 and SS.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

ZL700 said:


> BTW, I gotta ask, whats all that hack work piping in the back ground?
> CPVC, Sch 40, Brass, Black, Galvanized, only think left out was Sch 80 and SS.


That is what I was looking at also

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## coast to coast (Feb 17, 2012)

Is that a 3 way mixing valve ? Are those braided supplies ?


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## Plumber patt (Jan 26, 2011)

Not overly fond of the shark bite


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

ZL700 said:


> I see the boss likes the hack brand. Honeywell makes a nicer unit. Some Bradford White models come with them.


I like the Honeywell tempering valve. They're pretty slick.


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## walker426 (Oct 17, 2011)

ActionDan said:


> Have you guys seen this? Told by the bossman a few weeks ago to keep some of these on the truck. Finally had to install one last night.
> 
> HO was complaining about not having enough hot water. Apparently a 50 gal tank isn't enough for a family of four. Since I can't say bathe less, thought I'd give this a try. Easy install. Maybe about 20 minutes. I was reading up on it and it's suppose to increase their hot water capacity by 50% by storing the water at a hotter temp so you end up using less hot water. Just thought it looked kinda cool.


 That looks like some hokies handyman work there


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

Looks like a blending valve, with lowes hack bites :laughing:

So, are you now storing the water at 209f :thumbup:

I thought the maximum stored temp in residential as per ipc2009 is around 140f


Are you just mixing down the temp to a desired temp for the owner.

With the shark bites you coulda just shoved a 80 gallon unit in there nice and fast. :thumbsup:

Rule of the zone,,,,, DON'T POST PICS, unless you want to be pulled apart.

Always post before pics of handy man work but never after work. Or at least take the pics outa focus.......

Please remember the guys on here are all great, well most of them, lol.

They will always give advice to professionals of the trade if they can.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

That sharkbite flexi, is just ridiculous

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

Looks like you dropped a penny in the exhaust!


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## CTs2p2 (Dec 6, 2011)

ZL700 said:


> I see the boss likes the hack brand. Honeywell makes a nicer unit. Some Bradford White models come with them.
> 
> BTW, I gotta ask, whats all that hack work piping in the back ground?
> CPVC, Sch 40, Brass, Black, Galvanized, only think left out was Sch 80 and SS.



:laughing: I think that tee may be cast, add that to the list.. 
Also is that a relief valve that all that mess is piped from?






Michaelcookplum said:


> Looks like you dropped a penny in the exhaust!


:laughing: Good eye! I think that's for luck, owner may need it for the hose, hope it doesn't blow with the added temp and pressure in the tank.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Michaelcookplum said:


> Looks like you dropped a penny in the exhaust!


 That could have been a screwdriver if it was a dime.


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

is that some robot shiot in back right? cant be robot now i think about it, had to be human cause he cut his hand and bled all over it. 
its an infinite circle of pure madness !!


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Adding a penny to the flue stops corrosion :laughing:
I think I read it somewhere on the Internet :thumbup:


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## ActionDan (Dec 14, 2011)

ZL700 said:


> I see the boss likes the hack brand. Honeywell makes a nicer unit. Some Bradford White models come with them.
> 
> BTW, I gotta ask, whats all that hack work piping in the back ground?
> CPVC, Sch 40, Brass, Black, Galvanized, only think left out was Sch 80 and SS.


I haven't had any problems with Cash Acme products. Until one fails on me, I will continue to use it. As far as that thing in the back, I asked the same thing when I noticed it. It's tied into the home's sprinkler system and down here, it's the HVAC guys that do that. I was just there to put in the mixing valve. The HO didn't want to hear any of my recommendations.



mark kiernan said:


> Looks like a blending valve, with lowes hack bites :laughing:
> 
> So, are you now storing the water at 209f :thumbup:
> 
> ...



The tank is stored at 150° and the mixing valve distributes at 120°. 

The HO didn't want another heater. He'd just put that one in 6 months ago. Should've gone with a bigger tank to begin with, but that's not my problem. 

Talked to a guy who had one installed over Christmas, and his cut his energy bill in half from last Christmas.

And the penny thing is definately an old wives tale.

And I figured any pictures posted will be ripped. Anything that's not your own work is bound to be criticized for something. 
I was mainly showing off the picture to see if anyone had used or seen one.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Once I saw cash acme all I could think of was wylie coyote blasting off. I use tempering valves to increase the amount of hot water also and it is a good way.


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## Mikedforsound (Dec 28, 2011)

*Plumbin' in the south*

I work in Georgia. HVAC guys are always givin' plumbers a bad name. It bothers me, sprinkler lines are done by HVAC and specialty companies-- most plumbers won't touch them. It's the same with natural gas, it goes to the HVAC companies-- most plumbers don't like to mess with gas. The result.... you see a lot of shoddy work.


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## Plumbergeek (Aug 16, 2010)

Mikedforsound said:


> I work in Georgia. HVAC guys are always givin' plumbers a bad name. It bothers me, sprinkler lines are done by HVAC and specialty companies-- most plumbers won't touch them. It's the same with natural gas, it goes to the HVAC companies-- most plumbers don't like to mess with gas. The result.... you see a lot of shoddy work.


I'm in SW georgia and the plumbers here do work on gas if its related to the plumbing system, never seen a HVAC man do irrigation here though.....
They do like to install water heaters, which piss me off!:furious:
You want to see shoitty work, come to Newnan, a century of handi hacks and grandfathered plumbers?


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## SirAdrian (Dec 14, 2011)

mark kiernan said:


> Looks like a blending valve, with lowes hack bites :laughing:
> 
> So, are you now storing the water at 209f :thumbup:
> 
> I thought the maximum stored temp in residential as per ipc2009 is around 140f


In the Canadian code, the max temp supplied to any fixture is 140. Storing it at 209 is technically acceptable.


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

We install mixing/tempering valves on all new installs as it's now code. We hard pipe the ones we use though - they look like a 3 way T with an adjustment handle at the top.

I've only ever installed that style in the OP at the point of use (bathroom basin etc.).

Code says 120F/49C at the fixtures max. 

Anyhow, it's better than having the inspectors tell you to turn the tank down to 120 like they were a few years back. We were refusing to do that and it was causing all sorts of ruffled feathers with the white hats.


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## JenkPlbg (Nov 27, 2011)

I have never used one, nor have I seen one installed. I like the idea though, is there really a noticeable difference in the amount of hot water, and energy saving costs? Like, if you only have 5 minutes longer in the shower, it may not offset the cost too much for the h.o. same as for the energy savings.


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## walker426 (Oct 17, 2011)

MarkToo said:


> We install mixing/tempering valves on all new installs as it's now code. We hard pipe the ones we use though - they look like a 3 way T with an adjustment handle at the top.
> 
> I've only ever installed that style in the OP at the point of use (bathroom basin etc.).
> 
> ...


I use tacos that are a tee shape with 3 sweat connections


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

OK i have only read the OP, but did he really post that on the Z. \

As plumbers we shouldn't try to beat ourselves up


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

I am iterested in the tempering valves.

How many are using?
How much?
what brand?


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## seanny deep (Jan 28, 2012)

Sorry I'm not familiar with this configuration can someone tell me what and how they work. I've uses mixing valves for bidet's and stuff but how does this work on your hotwater heater?


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

SirAdrian said:


> In the Canadian code, the max temp supplied to any fixture is 140.


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

its a tempering valve. Limits the hot water temp to the outlet. The idea is, if you heat the tank up to 160, you'll use less hot water and more cold water to the fixture. The tempering valve can be set for a certain temperature, say 120. Since water in the tank is at 160, you'll have to mix some cold to get 120. This is common in apartments and such, with large water heaters supplying multiple units. Its to overcome slow recovery. I suppose its ok in residential, but, in my experience, I've never seen it done. I'd have gone 75 gallon or tanksless. Also, wears out residential tanks alot faster at 160 degrees. See ya in 3 years!


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

Mikedforsound said:


> I work in Georgia. HVAC guys are always givin' plumbers a bad name. It bothers me, sprinkler lines are done by HVAC and specialty companies-- most plumbers won't touch them. It's the same with natural gas, it goes to the HVAC companies-- most plumbers don't like to mess with gas. The result.... you see a lot of shoddy work.


 huh?
well, today, I got to have an HVAC guy as a helper on a sewer line job, because HVAC stuff is so slow right now. First off, those guys don't like to get dirty. But in his defense, he actually loaded my mainline rooter back onto the truck, by himself, and thats no easy feat. I think this HVAC guy will have alot more respect for what us plumbers go thru. BTW, we are doing a sewer line replacement, starting on Friday and finishing on Saturday, and my HVAC helper is going to be helping me. Workin on a Saturday......heheh.....


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## ActionDan (Dec 14, 2011)

JenkPlbg said:


> I have never used one, nor have I seen one installed. I like the idea though, is there really a noticeable difference in the amount of hot water, and energy saving costs? Like, if you only have 5 minutes longer in the shower, it may not offset the cost too much for the h.o. same as for the energy savings.


Sure, 5 minutes won't make a difference, but what about adding another person? From what the guy who installed one at Christmas told me, he went from having 2 people living in his household the year before to 3 people this past year, and he still cut his energy use in half. Now's he's not running out of hot water after 2 showers.



beachplumber said:


> I am iterested in the tempering valves.
> 
> How many are using?
> How much?
> what brand?


The demand for thermostatic mixing valves is growing in my area. I've installed several of the CashAcme Heatguard products but this is my first with the new device. It's called the Heatguard MultiFlex Temperature Control Kit. My boss got them for about $110 each from his supply store. He thinks it'll make a good and easy upsell.



seanny deep said:


> Sorry I'm not familiar with this configuration can someone tell me what and how they work. I've uses mixing valves for bidet's and stuff but how does this work on your hotwater heater?



It's like what MikeS said. You store the water temperature at 150° but you mix it with more cold water to get it to 120°. That way you're killing any bacteria festering in your hwh but you're not scalding anyone with hot water.

Best of both worlds :thumbup:


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## The real E.P. (Aug 9, 2011)

SirAdrian said:


> In the Canadian code, the max temp supplied to any fixture is 140. Storing it at 209 is technically acceptable.


Max at fixture is 120 f ... Tank must be at 140 minimum to prevent legionnaires


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

The real E.P. said:


> Max at fixture is 120 f ... Tank must be at 140 minimum to prevent legionnaires


That isn't code yet down here -- But it should be.


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

You'll have to excuse me if I'm brain farting here but, I cannot see how a mixing valve is going to provide more hot water - literally or virtually. I also cannot fathom how people are claiming energy savings from it.

If your HWT is set to 140 or 160 or whatever, you're going to manually mix your hot water at the fixture to whatever temperature you like - mixing valve or not. I don't see how it allows for longer showers or more showers in a row etc.

It's simply an anti-scald device - nothing more.

Am I missing something?


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

Next time I go to the house I will throw a pic up for you. Old 1950 something ruud with one of them fancy valves on top.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

MarkToo said:


> You'll have to excuse me if I'm brain farting here but, I cannot see how a mixing valve is going to provide more hot water - literally or virtually. I also cannot fathom how people are claiming energy savings from it.
> 
> If your HWT is set to 140 or 160 or whatever, you're going to manually mix your hot water at the fixture to whatever temperature you like - mixing valve or not. I don't see how it allows for longer showers or more showers in a row etc.
> 
> ...


I think by the stored water being hotter, you would need more cold mixed in to lower the temp. 

This in turn might give more volume of water to the shower, end user...

That's just my take on it, but I'm not too bright....:blink:


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## SirAdrian (Dec 14, 2011)

SirAdrian said:


> In the Canadian code, the max temp supplied to any fixture is 140. Storing it at 209 is technically acceptable.


I would like to change what I wrote. 49C. Is max. Which is 120 F. Lol I shouldn't do conversion in my head.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

MarkToo said:


> You'll have to excuse me if I'm brain farting here but, I cannot see how a mixing valve is going to provide more hot water - literally or virtually. I also cannot fathom how people are claiming energy savings from it.
> 
> If your HWT is set to 140 or 160 or whatever, you're going to manually mix your hot water at the fixture to whatever temperature you like - mixing valve or not. I don't see how it allows for longer showers or more showers in a row etc.
> 
> ...


 
The hotter water in the tank will last longer before cooling down. Has to do with temperature rise


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## ActionDan (Dec 14, 2011)

Since you end up storing hot water at a higher temp, you're using more cold water to bring down the temp. By using more cold water to get to the temperature you desire, you're heating up hot water less often, hence the lower cost in energy.

For example:
If your tank is set at 120°: At 120°, you're going to go through the water in your tank at your normal usage. Also, if you're just going to mix hot and cold at the sink, the same volume of hot water will come from the hwh. 

But if you're storing the same amount of water at 150°, you're going to use the cold water to bring down the temp, so there's less of your hot water being used at the faucet. So now there's more in your tank, which means you're going to heat up less to replace what you used.

So from what I got from the Cash Acme website and the directions from the box, yes it is an anti-scalding device, but the idea behind it sounds like it should help your energy bill too.


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

When storing water at higher temps you also need to make sure the expansion vessels bladder is at the right pressure and working as it should, if fitted. 
When storing at temps higher than recomended there will be a lot of expansion and contraction in that there water heater and shorten the life of the unit if no thermal expansion is in place.


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

ActionDan said:


> Since you end up storing hot water at a higher temp, you're using more cold water to bring down the temp. By using more cold water to get to the temperature you desire, you're heating up hot water less often, hence the lower cost in energy.
> 
> For example:
> If your tank is set at 120°: At 120°, you're going to go through the water in your tank at your normal usage. Also, if you're just going to mix hot and cold at the sink, the same volume of hot water will come from the hwh.
> ...



Nope. Still don't entirely buy it.

1. No one is running their HWT temp at 120F - at least they shouldn't be.

2. Hot water in the tank at 160 is still hot water in the tank at 160.

You simply aren't going to be using less energy or less water having a bath or shower when a mixing valve is in the system. The laws of physics and the wild west don't allow it. That 104F bubble bath contains the same amount of hot water from your 160F tank mixed with the same volume of cold -whether mixed manually at the faucet or in combination with a mixing valve.

Now if claims are being made because people are changing the temperature of their hot water stored in the tank after installing a mixing valve, then the whole formula changes. You're increasing your virtual volume of hot water at a given temperature. It's not apples to apples.


The only place where there may be a slight savings is your clothes washer and dishwasher. If you wash clothes with just hot water then, I can see there may be a modest if measurable savings as the fixture would be using a slightly lower temperature with the mixing valve in place. In this case, lower temperature = less actual volume from the HWT.

Anyhow, for those claiming more baths and showers, I call hogwash unless they're upping the temperature of the stored water. But, this could be done without a mixing valve so it's not relevant. As far as financial savings in a residential application etc., I call hogwash on that too unless they're running a commercial kitchen (in which case you'd have the hot bypassed around the mixing valve), or a commercial laundry...


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

MarkToo said:


> Nope. Still don't entirely buy it.
> 
> 1. No one is running their HWT temp at 120F - at least they shouldn't be.
> 
> ...


 
This is not about saving water or energy. It is about storing more hot water. 76 degree water cools 160 degree water at a far less rate then when it is at 120 degree. By the way your number 1 statement is not correct. Here a tempering valve is not required unless an alternate supplemental source that heats the water such as solar ecu lines or commercial heater. A permit pulled on a water heater will be tested by the inspector and it better not be higher than 120 degrees.


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## coast to coast (Feb 17, 2012)

Ok just for argument sake let's take 4 gals of water at 120 mixed at the shower control down to 90 . We now have 6 gals of water in out tub . Now if our hwt is running at 160 and the water is mixed down to 120 at the hwt. In theory we only need to pull for 4 gal and we would have 6 gal . So we just pulled 4 yet we have 6 now we mix again at the tub to get down to 90 and we end up with 8 gals . As far as energy savings go I don't know but that's what I make of it giving u more hot water .


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

Richard Hilliard said:


> This is not about saving water or energy. It is about storing more hot water. 76 degree water cools 160 degree water at a far less rate then when it is at 120 degree. By the way your number 1 statement is not correct. Here a tempering valve is not required unless an alternate supplemental source that heats the water such as solar ecu lines or commercial heater. A permit pulled on a water heater will be tested by the inspector and it better not be higher than 120 degrees.




I completely understand the science. I'm basing this discussion on statements like this.


Quote *"Talked to a guy who had one installed over Christmas, and his cut his energy bill in half from last Christmas."

*If you really read my argument, I believe it's solid.
As an aside...

If you guys are seriously running your HWT temps at 120F and lower, you're risking breeding legionella.

A few years back, our powers that be were demanding us to ensure all new install HWT temperatures were 120F max as well. As plumbers, we refused to comply because of the health risks involved. They then brought in the mixing valve code/rule.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

MarkToo said:


> I completely understand the science. I'm basing this discussion on statements like this.
> 
> 
> Quote *"Talked to a guy who had one installed over Christmas, and his cut his energy bill in half from last Christmas."*
> ...


 
Believe me we have all kinds of issues with bacteria in water heaters. Outside of permited water heaters we do turn the stats up.


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## ActionDan (Dec 14, 2011)

MarkToo said:


> I completely understand the science. I'm basing this discussion on statements like this.
> 
> 
> Quote *"Talked to a guy who had one installed over Christmas, and his cut his energy bill in half from last Christmas."
> ...


So I say one guy saves up to 50% on his energy bill and you take it that everyone who installs this will save 50%? I was reporting what I had. I'm sure people will have different results. I never said that it would cut _everyone's_ energy bill in half. 

I got a guy who has PolyB still installed that's never given him a problem. You now gonna believe that everyone's PolyB piping is problem free? :laughing:

And why would you install a mixing valve and not raise the temperature of the tank? That's the whole point of a mixing valve. Plus, when showing the benefit of a mixing valve, you normally compare it to when you _don't _having a mixing valve. 

You can't have a heater set at 150° to kill bacteria but also have it set at 120° for safe distribution without some kind of mixing valve. You can't have both. :no:


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

ActionDan said:


> So I say one guy saves up to 50% on his energy bill and you take it that everyone who installs this will save 50%? I was reporting what I had. I'm sure people will have different results. I never said that it would cut _everyone's_ energy bill in half.
> 
> I got a guy who has PolyB still installed that's never given him a problem. You now gonna believe that everyone's PolyB piping is problem free? :laughing:
> 
> ...


As far as the energy savings go, your argument is with Isaac Newton, not me.

As far as hot water volumes and temperatures go, you have to compare apples to apples. There's no magic bullet to increase volume. Again I say if you are increasing the tank temperature then yes, there will be a perception of a greater volume of hot water at a given tempered temperature. However, the mixing valve is not in any way responsible for this. *You get the same effect from your shower valves, tub valves and basin taps - you do this every time you wash your hands no matter what temperature the HWT is set to.*

I do however agree that a mixing valve will allow you to increase your HWT temperature to whatever temp your heart desires and still meet code (if applicable) at 120F. That is certainly a benefit but mutually exclusive from the discussion.

Not knocking you ActionDan but, if you're going to make claims like the above, expect to be called on it.

Sorry but the (quite) substantial energy savings claim is bunk.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

Here's a couple of facts from Osha website..

Q. What water conditions are best for growth of the organism?

*A. *Warm, stagnant water provides ideal conditions for growth. At temperatures between 20°C-50°C (68°-122°F) the organism can multiply. Temperatures of 32°C-40°C (90°-105°F) are ideal for growth. Rust (iron), scale, and the presence of other microorganisms can also promote the growth of LDB.

Q. Can Legionnaires' disease be prevented?

*A. *Yes. Avoiding water conditions that allow the organism to grow to high levels is the best means of prevention. Specific preventive steps include: 

Maintain domestic water heaters at 60°C (140°F). The temperature of the water should be 50°C (122°F) or higher at the faucet. 

Q. Do you recommend that I operate my home water heater at 60°C (140°F)?

*A. *Probably not if you have small children or infirm elderly persons who could be at serious risk of being scalded by the hot water. However, if you have people living with you who are at high risk of contracting the disease, then operating the water heater at a minimum temperature of 60°C (140°F) is probably a good idea. Consider installing a scald-prevention device.


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