# Ballcock with pressure relief built in



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I'm wondering if any of you have ever run across one of these...

http://www.watts.com/pdf/S-GOV80.pdf

They are a ballcock that has an 80-psi relief valve installed and are marketed as a solution for thermal expansion in a closed system.

I've never seen one until the other day when I was at the Watts website getting some info links for a thermal expansion discussion here. It looks like a case where if you did run across one of these changing a ballcock that wasn't leaking could upset the apple cart and start a T&P discharging.

I can't say that I'm a fan of using pressure relief to control thermal expansions effects and I would naturally lean towards installing a tank but, I just wanted to give everyone a heads up on this product...:whistling2:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

They've been out for years.

Wasteful product when it comes to water usage.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Redwood said:


> I'm wondering if any of you have ever run across one of these...
> 
> http://www.watts.com/pdf/S-GOV80.pdf
> 
> ...


 I've never seen one in person but i've seen them online. I think they also make a product that screws onto your hose faucet and then you leave the faucet open,it relives the pressure. I agree with you that a tank is the best control method and second method is basic pressure relief valve with the proper relief setting. If I had a closed system I'd also install a gauge if it were my home in between the water heater and the ex. tank.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Why would a tank be better than a valve? A valve fails open while a tank fails closed. If a bladder goes out on a tank and there is now no control for thermal expansion, something could burst causing massive property damage. If a valve goes bad an starts dripping, the plumber gets called out to replace it and check for other problems (if he's worth a damn that is).

As far as water usage with a relief valve goes, it's sutch a small amount that it's negligable. Small price to pay if you are guaranteed not to have an over pressure condition. I stick to my $5 relief valves thank you.



Redwood said:


> I'm wondering if any of you have ever run across one of these...
> 
> http://www.watts.com/pdf/S-GOV80.pdf
> 
> ...


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I don't like em. HO keeps hearing the WC runl. What are they gonna do? They will march right to homie and buy a 400a.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I'm right there with you on the ballcock kinds. I was referring to the ones that you install on the heater.



ILPlumber said:


> I don't like em. HO keeps hearing the WC runl. What are they gonna do? They will march right to homie and buy a 400a.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Protech said:


> Why would a tank be better than a valve? A valve fails open while a tank fails closed. If a bladder goes out on a tank and there is now no control for thermal expansion, something could burst causing massive property damage. If a valve goes bad an starts dripping, the plumber gets called out to replace it and check for other problems (if he's worth a damn that is).


Ummm wouldn't there be a T&P on the water heater piped to a safe discharge location where property damage would not occur? That seems to be the norm for code compliance in my neck of the woods...



Protech said:


> As far as water usage with a relief valve goes, it's sutch a small amount that it's negligable. Small price to pay if you are guaranteed not to have an over pressure condition. I stick to my $5 relief valves thank you.


And with a properly functioning thermal expansion tank there is zero discharge.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I dont think a relief valve acts quick enough. I've personally seen new 150# temp and pressure relief valves hold over 200 psi. They finally open but they are slow to act.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I've seen plenty of supply lines, as well as plastic pipes burst below 150psi. Most codes stat that the T/P "shall not be used as a means of thermal expansion control".

Also, those tanks provide a nice warm, stagnant, iron ritch environment for Legionella and other nasty bugs to grow



Redwood said:


> Ummm wouldn't there be a T&P on the water heater piped to a safe discharge location where property damage would not occur? That seems to be the norm for code compliance in my neck of the woods...
> 
> 
> 
> And with a properly functioning thermal expansion tank there is zero discharge.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I consider the valves you use protech what they are a pressure relief valve however even tho they are adjustable I dont fell like they act quick enough. So the pressure might go up above the set point.....no good,plus they dont always fail open. They dribble water and can clogg up over time just like a t&P valve can do. The tank will control the pressure smoothly while the other may pop off below or above the ideal set point. The water in the tanks not stagnant it exchanges when/if the pressure builds and is released. The tank can be remotely located on the cold water line....it doesn't hafta be at the heater,but I pipe them in between the water heaters stop valve and the water heater.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Yeah, but not when the bladder fails and then goes unnoticed for 10 years.

The pressure relief valves are adjustable. You just set them 10 pounds above the static pressure or at 75psi. The pressure WILL NOT go above 80psi. As far as one failing closed.......I don't think so. It's not mounted on a steel tank like a t/p so I don't see any galvanic fouling happening. As long as the thing is installed with a down hill drain nothing is going to get clogged in the spring ether. Impossible no, highly improbable yes.



TheMaster said:


> I consider the valves you use protech what they are a pressure relief valve however even tho they are adjustable I dont fell like they act quick enough. So the pressure might go up above the set point.....no good,plus they dont always fail open. They dribble water and can clogg up over time just like a t&P valve can do. The tank will control the pressure smoothly while the other may pop off below or above the ideal set point. *The water in the tanks not stagnant it exchanges when/if the pressure builds and is released.* The tank can be remotely located on the cold water line....it doesn't hafta be at the heater,but I pipe them in between the water heaters stop valve and the water heater.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Protech said:


> I've seen plenty of supply lines, as well as plastic pipes burst below 150psi. Most codes stat that the T/P "shall not be used as a means of thermal expansion control".
> 
> Also, those tanks provide a nice warm, stagnant, iron ritch environment for Legionella and other nasty bugs to grow


I'm not to sure where your coming from Protech...

The initial pressure control on the system here would be a PRV we have hills and pressure variations...

The thermal expansion tank would be piped on the cold side providing the thermal expansion protection with a temp range of 35-70 feeding the water heater...

The T&P providing safety only...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Let me suppose the following then to make it clear:

You have a house at the bottom of a hill with a street pressure of 175psi.

You have a PRV at the main regulating it down to 60psi.

You have a bladder tank on the heater inlet. 

The bladder goes bad. No one knows since homey doesn't check his pressure on a regular basis.

Thermal expansion causes the pressure to shoot up to 150psi.

A toilet supply line bursts from the high pressure flooding the house.

The end.




Redwood said:


> I'm not to sure where your coming from Protech...
> 
> The initial pressure control on the system here would be a PRV we have hills and pressure variations...
> 
> ...


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> Yeah, but not when the bladder fails and then goes unnoticed for 10 years.
> 
> The pressure relief valves are adjustable. You just set them 10 pounds above the static pressure or at 75psi. The pressure WILL NOT go above 80psi. As far as one failing closed.......I don't think so. It's not mounted on a steel tank like a t/p so I don't see any galvanic fouling happening. As long as the thing is installed with a down hill drain nothing is going to get clogged in the spring ether. Impossible no, highly improbable yes.


 An exspansion tank needs to be checked atleast once a year. I still think your valves will be slow to act and or fail and leak all the time. I dont think they are as reliable as a tank if the tank is maintained. I dont think that valve has a stamp that our code requires either but thats a lame ass arguement as far as I'm concerend. Some people have hard water and it'll ruin that valve because of its possible intermittant use. Some very active closed systems never get high pressures or not for long because all it takes is alittle drip somwhere to control it and alot of people have leaks.:laughing: That little drip going through your valve can clog it up,its small compared to a 3/4 valve. Thats another reason why they dont want the pipe size reduced on a 3/4 t&P valve because if it dribbles on and off for along time it can close itself off and then all you may need is a sticking thermostat for the consitions to start getting right for the fireworks.:laughing: The way I see it atleast we both are doing somthing to control the problem and I have no real proof other than I've seen T&P valves hold 200# and over from thermal exspansion and I even replaced the T&P and did another test and it held too for about 15 minutes before it started to dribble.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Protech said:


> Let me suppose the following then to make it clear:
> 
> You have a house at the bottom of a hill with a street pressure of 175psi.
> 
> ...


Hey it's not my problem you buy the junk plastic ones that look like stainless steel braid at the depot...:laughing:

T&P opens venting just like your relief valve would


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Lets try that again with a relief valve instead of a tank:


You have a house at the bottom of a hill with a street pressure of 175psi.

You have a PRV at the main regulating it down to 60psi.

You have a pressure relief valve set to go off at 75psi on the heater inlet. 

The valve goes bad. Homey ether notices the big puddle of water at the relief drain and calls the plumber out to check things out OR homey gets a high water bill and call the plumber out to check things out.

Plumber replaces the valve and checks out the PRV as well.

Plumber gets paid. The house is not flooded.

The end


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Fine, you get lucky and there are no cheap supply lines in the house. Fixtures all start failing prematurely and/or a ball cock shears at the threads or a laundry hose bursts. Or any number of other bad cenarios.



Redwood said:


> Hey it's not my problem you buy the junk plastic ones that look like stainless steel braid at the depot...:laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Protech said:


> Lets try that again with a relief valve instead of a tank:
> 
> 
> You have a house at the bottom of a hill with a street pressure of 175psi.
> ...


Or the customer gets his water bill for $15k and says what the heck and finally finds a relief valve discharging into a drain and asks on some on-line plumbing forum WTF is this thing finally discovering how the rest of the world does it...:laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Protech said:


> Fine, you get lucky and there are no cheap supply lines in the house. Fixtures all start failing prematurely and/or a ball cock shears at the threads or a laundry hose bursts. Or any number of other bad cenarios.


I think your data is a tad bit skewed...

I'm just saying...

A relief valve in a ballcock isn't the brightest idea ever hatched...
It is to easily circumvented by replacing a ballcock with one that doesn't have that feature...:whistling2:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I'm with ya 100% there.



Redwood said:


> I think your data is a tad bit skewed...
> 
> *I'm just saying...
> 
> ...


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> I don't like em. HO keeps hearing the WC runl. What are they gonna do? They will march right to homie and buy a 400a.


 I've seen several of them ,, and this is EXACTLY what happens ! 

Yet i'm having a lot of problems with expansion tanks ,, they are seeming to fail more regularly . 

What about these relief valves you are talking about Pro T ??


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Heres a relief valve that adjustable.......its not the same one protect uses but read the application standards and how the valves works. I still maintain that the relief valves protect uses are not reliable in controlling thermal exspansion reliably. It could be too slow to act or get clogged. be sure to read the entire page of this link....
http://straval.com/catlist-relief-v...sure-diaphragm-control-inline-threaded-rvi-20
Here I copied it:
*Applications*

This safety relief valve can be used for relieving pressures and maintaining upstream line pressures to a specific set pressure. Pressure relief valve can also be used for bypassing fluids or gases. Only strained or filtered liquids are recommended. When liquids contain debris or other solid matter which might cause the valve seat not to close properly with this type of pressure relief valve, a low-pressure strainer with a fine wire mesh should be installed before the inlet of the valve. Simplex basket strainers or low-pressure filters can be purchased from Stra-Val. This is a diaphragm low-pressure valve which is used where accurate set pressures must be maintained. The large diaphragm area compared to a piston pressure relief valve produces much more accurate pressure control with very low hysteresis between opening and closing pressures. See available orifice sizes and flow Cv below.
For higher relief pressures see models RVC05, RVT05




*Options*

See pricing Table to select available options 


*Principle of Operation*

This is a diaphragm and spring type relief valve where the spring constantly opposes the pressure acting against the diaphragm which seals off the inlet port from the outlet port at the valve seat. The desired relief or bypass pressure is achieved by compressing the spring until the spring force is adequate to balance the pressure force acting against the diaphragm. When the inlet pressure exceeds the set pressure, the diaphragm will open to relieve and bypass the excess pressure.The valve will operate in a vertical orientation as illustrated, horizontal, or any other orientation.
Although the ports are inline, this is not a "through flow" model where flow continuously passes through the valve. If this valve were to be installed in a flow line, it would shut off flow to the line completely and open only when the set pressure is exceeded. This valve is typically mounted to a device to be protected such as a tank or other pressure containing device. If a flow stream needs to be protected from overpressure, then the valve is mounted on the side of a Tee, or at the end of a line branch where it will pass excess flow only when the valve opens. The outlet port of the valve is usually piped to a drain or discharged directly to atmosphere only if the liquid or gas is safe to be discharged without injuring personnel or damaging equipment nearby . For a true "through flow" model, see our model RVT05 which is a piston type that has three ports.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I have never seen them here, heck every single resident I go to I never ever see an expansion tank, in commercial yes. I guess it's an Oregon thing, no one puts them in and there is no problems around here.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> I have never seen them here, heck every single resident I go to I never ever see an expansion tank, in commercial yes. I guess it's an Oregon thing, no one puts them in and there is no problems around here.


 You guys may not have closed systems. If the systems closed you will have problems. A system cant be closed unless all leaks are repaired,so if they have a dripping faucet its not closed. Somtimes the customer will not have any issues until you repair all the leaks.....then boom the pressure goes up when the water heater kicks on.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

We have closed systems here just as you all do, lots of PRV's valve in the grounds. On new homes as well they are there.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Here a test Ron. Make sure you have no leaks in your house or drips. Run about 20%-30 percent of your hot water out of the tank and make sure it energizes or fires off. Attach a gauge to the drain valve....now turn your stop valve off on the cold side of the water heater. Watch the gauge......if the system is closed the gauge will rise slowly and then almost or completely stop for a few minutes....then boom it go way up. Try it out.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

We had all talked before about the 3/4" ball valve with a pressure relief port . I think it's a Watts .

Anyone use these ??


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Never mind ,,, found em ! Watts BRV


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

A few plumbers here that do new houses will not use those...they said they were getting callbacks for the valves continually running. The watts ballvalve with exp port. Maybe they got a bad batch and maybe changes have been made to them I dunno. I have a few in stock but haven't used them yet for the reason I stated above. I'd rather have a tank fail 2 years after I install it than a valve 2 months after I install it.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I dunno if its the expansion tanks I'm using or, the way I set them up but I don't see many failures.

Amtrol Therm~X~Trol tanks are lined to prevent corrosion of the steel tank and the bladder pre~charge should be set to match the pressure of the system. Proper precharge eliminates excessive bladder movement which can contribute to an early failure,


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> I have never seen them here, heck every single resident I go to I never ever see an expansion tank, in commercial yes. I guess it's an Oregon thing, no one puts them in and there is no problems around here.


Same in Massachusetts.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Then its not a closed system,plain and simple.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

I'm sure your right. It's not code to use an expansion tank here, and nobody does it.

Most of Mass is on city/town water (highly populated state) and most of us have a meter, a shutoff, and nothing else where water main comes into residence.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Hey Redwood,

If you was to pre-charge the TET say +20 or even higher above the system pressure would this extend the life of the tank, or is the time it would take for the 0% raise and the 20% or higher in the pressure insufficient to make a difference?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Hey Redwood,
> 
> If you was to pre-charge the TET say +20 or even higher above the system pressure would this extend the life of the tank, or is the time it would take for the 0% raise and the 20% or higher in the pressure insufficient to make a difference?


 A higher setting may or may not extend the life of the TET but a lower setting will for sure decrease the life of the bladder. It al depends on how much and how often the pressure builds up. A higher seting would just delay the time until the tank kicked in and relieved the pressure.....during this delay the systems presure may be relieved by a fushing toilet,ice maker or any other use of water......so the higher setting may allow more time for somthign else to relieve the presure.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

My math is not that great, so sorry for asking this.

As water heats to expands, in a closed system how much is the pressure increased by each 1° of rise?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

To be clear the TET will never relieve the pressure...just control it at the set point of the air charge. In my post above I stated that the TET would kick in and relieve pressure...thats not really true....I meant to communicate that it would CONTROL the pressure.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Good answer TM ya took the words right out of my mouth.:thumbup:

The biggest thing you are doing is keeping the pressure stable prolonging the service life of plumbing system components.

One of the biggest savings will come on prolonging the service life of the water heater. It's a pressure vessel and there is a certain degree of flex built into it. Each time the pressure climbs and drops would be a pressure cycle. There are only so many cycles that can be absorbed before failure both from the glass lining cracking and corrosion which results from the cracks in the glass and also metal fatigue of the tank itself from the flexing.

I usually use the Aloha Airlines flight 243 as an example of metal fatigue in a pressure vessel. The aircraft was not among the oldest in the fleet yet because of its use in short hops between the islands it had a number of pressure cycles much higher than most other aircraft in the fleet which shocked the aviation community into a new realization of the effects of pressure cycling on a pressure vessel.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

It would be easy to build a test rig to play around with. Get some 3/4 copper pipe and a relief valve,stop valve,gauge,thermometer. Build all that up and connect it to your garden hose to fill and pressurize it. Now with your stop valve turn off,disconnect from your hose. Now use your torch to heat the pipe filled with water. watch the gauge and the thermometer. It will rise.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Here is a good read for those interested...

http://www.watts.com/pro/divisions/...nabout/learnabout_thermexpansion.asp?catId=64

Here is a calculator program you can use as well...

http://www.watts.com/pro/divisions/watersafety_flowcontrol/support/support_DETsizing.asp

Without using TM's pipe bomb experiment...
He's trying to kill you Ron...:laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

In redwoods link I just read the little independent relief valve is not asme certified. Thats why we cant use it,now why isn't it certified is the million dollar question. maybe its not reliable enough?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

barnett stock # 521016 or 521015



Cal said:


> I've seen several of them ,, and this is EXACTLY what happens !
> 
> Yet i'm having a lot of problems with expansion tanks ,, they are seeming to fail more regularly .
> 
> What about these relief valves you are talking about Pro T ??


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> My math is not that great, so sorry for asking this.
> 
> As water heats to expands, in a closed system how much is the pressure increased by each 1° of rise?


Copied from an old AO Smith book in my office:

Water expands at the rate of approx. .00023 % for each degree of temperature rise. If all the water in a 30-gal water heater were raised from 60 to 140 F, it would increase the original volume to 30.55 gallon.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Colgar said:


> Copied from an old AO Smith book in my office:
> 
> Water expands at the rate of approx. .00023 % for each degree of temperature rise. If all the water in a 30-gal water heater were raised from 60 to 140 F, it would increase the original volume to 30.55 gallon.


With your numbers i get only .55 gallons not 30. I think you end up with 30.55 for a total increase of .55


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Plumber Jim said:


> With your numbers i get only .55 gallons not 30. I think you end up with 30.55 for a total increase of .55


I think you're saying the same thing. Start with 30 gal., end with 30.55.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

You're right. I need to wake up. hehe


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

How much does stuffing that extra .55 gallon in there increase the pressure of the system? Assuming you are only dealing with the original volume. Not the whole house.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> How much does stuffing that extra .55 gallon in there increase the pressure of the system? Assuming you are only dealing with the original volume. Not the whole house.


Not much!:laughing:

But if you didn't have the tank given the non-compressibility of water enough to activate the T&P


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> How much does stuffing that extra .55 gallon in there increase the pressure of the system? Assuming you are only dealing with the original volume. Not the whole house.


From the same book:

Water confined in a storage tank or piping system will, when subjected to a temperature rise of 10 degrees, increases pressure from 50 lbs to 250 lbs.

That doesn't really answer your question and raises some of my own.

Where do "they" get the 50 lbs from?

Does that mean a 10 degree rise results in 5X more pressure or 200lbs more pressure?


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## caseysbuilding (Mar 11, 2009)

Have you considered the F-5 falcon? It has really worked for me.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Colgar said:


> From the same book:
> 
> Water confined in a storage tank or piping system will, when subjected to a temperature rise of 10 degrees, increases pressure from 50 lbs to 250 lbs.
> 
> ...


Maybe they meant 100 degree temp rise........Theya re getting the 50psi from the starting pressure...say the citys pressure was 50 psi.
Considering 10 degrees isn't shiot,I think their numbers are off on that,BUT I have seen it 1st hand and the pressure will go really high...pegged my gauges. Its no joke


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

The ten degree rise is backed up by a chart.

Whether it's correct or not......


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Colgar said:


> The ten degree rise is backed up by a chart.
> 
> Whether it's correct or not......


I figured that part out...I think they are correct but you dont see that kinda pressure in the water heater because the tank swells up. Thats why I no scientist....or a physics major:laughing: Their numbers are not allowing for the container to swell AT ALL


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Any of you guys notice the vertical seam on the water heater sheetmetal jacket ever seperated? Thats a sign of an over pressured tank and so is the bungs in the top poiting away from each other. If it goes high enough the tank bottom will invert also.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I figured that part out...I think they are correct but you dont see that kinda pressure in the water heater because the tank swells up. Thats why I no scientist....or a physics major:laughing: Their numbers are not allowing for the container to swell AT ALL


Yeah, i don't think you would ever see that either- with out stars and planets aligning and something going drastically wrong.

I remember closing some valves on a water heater piped in a parallel configuration and I forgot to kill the burner. relief was dribbling in less than a minute.


Either way you shake it, water is an azz kicker. We think we control it, but it controls us.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Colgar said:


> Yeah, i don't think you would ever see that either- with out stars and planets aligning and something going drastically wrong.
> 
> I remember closing some valves on a water heater piped in a parallel configuration and I forgot to kill the burner. relief was dribbling in less than a minute.
> 
> ...


 Exactly!!!! And your just guessing the relief valve opened at 150...who knows it could have been way higher. Not that you should have known,just sayin nobody really knows that day what the pressure went to.


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## gusty60 (Oct 21, 2008)

Redwood said:


> I think your data is a tad bit skewed...
> 
> I'm just saying...
> 
> ...


 Or homey gets tired of hearing dribbling ballcock and shuts off angle stop in the middle of the night.:no:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Depends on the volume of the water being heated and the type of piping used. Just saying "10 degrees of rise" without the other variables of the equation tells you nothing.



Colgar said:


> From the same book:
> 
> Water confined in a storage tank or piping system will, when subjected to a temperature rise of 10 degrees, increases pressure from 50 lbs to 250 lbs.
> 
> ...


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

Redwood said:


> I'm wondering if any of you have ever run across one of these...
> 
> http://www.watts.com/pdf/S-GOV80.pdf
> 
> ...


We use them often, when a contractor will insist on installing one of them short water heaters underneath the tightest area unused under the stairs, and no room for a tank.

I don't like them mainly because they deteriorate awfully quickly, especially when customers use them bleach tablets.

They do however sell rebuild kits for them if you come across one and need it. It has all new gaskets for the device. Not sure on the cost comparison between that and a tank, but the install will be cheaper i'm sure.


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Any of you guys notice the vertical seam on the water heater sheetmetal jacket ever seperated? Thats a sign of an over pressured tank and so is the bungs in the top poiting away from each other. If it goes high enough the tank bottom will invert also.


Every A.O. w/h we buy has bungs pointing away from each other. That's got to be just cheap factory work then, eh? Bungs? lol, we call them nipples 'round these parts.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Protech said:


> Depends on the volume of the water being heated and the type of piping used. Just saying "10 degrees of rise" without the other variables of the equation tells you nothing.



It does seem like there is more to it than that, doesn't it? 

To me, it raises more questions than answers.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

What else could there be to it? They said a storage vessel,that means any size to me.....Water is constant and the only variable is the pressure at 50 psi and they specify the temp rise at 10 degrees. Piping has nothing to do with their statement,they said a vessel. Its a hypothetical.....and i bet they are not considering the vessel will expand for their statement to hold true. Thats the way i read it. Sombody call them and clear it up so i can sleep again:laughing:


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

That's knda how I took it also.

But- I would like to know the math behind it.

Does a cup of water in a closed vessel @ 50 psi increase to 250 psi with a 10 degree rise? In other words, does the volume of water being heated make a difference? The starting pressure before heating? In my mind no, it doesn't matter, but I don't know.

As soon as I feel like banging my head against the wall, I call them for more info.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)




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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

That's why a valve is better than a tank


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> That's why a valve is better than a tank


 It fails safe....hopefully. Thats not for certain. Relief valves can fail from corrosion and fail to function.
You cannot get a perfect constant 80psi either like a tank will provide...you hafta set it high or it WILL leak prematurely or possibly leak too much.
Too much fiddling and adjusting,tank you set the pressure and its done.
Your loosing water,even tho its not much.
Ultimately I will fail you based on code....your exceeding 80psi.
My problem with the tanks are that they fail and they can fail and flood the house. if you read on the tanks it says install in a location that rupture cannot cause property damage.....well where would that be other than outside or in a crawlspace?
What good is installing a water heater pan when you have a 3.5 or 5 gal tank above it all that will not leak into the pan but spray all over the room? 
Maybe the best way is a tank located where it cannot flood and do damage or a housing that encloses the tank with a drain to the pan AND a back up relief valve set at 100psi to take over in the event the tank fails like your using..


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

I've been using these Apollo 78-325RV (EXV) combination ball valve w/thermal expansion valves for thermal expansion. They're factory set for 80PSI relief (it's what the inspectors here demand), but I sometimes boost that a bit (as Protech did in the video) to keep them from constantly dribbling when customers have their PRV set high.










The photo shows barbs for vinyl or other soft tubing. The model # I use (78-325RV) has a pex barb outlet.

Though I don't have hard water problems here, I'm still not terribly thrilled with them, but the alternative is expansion tanks. I don't like tanks for some of the reasons stated previously by others in this thread, so expansion valves it is.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

My beef with tanks is you get 5-8 years out of them and then the bladder goes. No one will know when it does. Then you high pressure due to thermal expansion and somthing may let go and flod the place.

As far as corrosion goes, I don't think it's very likely as it isn't installed on the steel tank like the T/P.



TheMaster said:


> It fails safe....hopefully. Thats not for certain. Relief valves can fail from corrosion and fail to function.
> You cannot get a perfect constant 80psi either like a tank will provide...you hafta set it high or it WILL leak prematurely or possibly leak too much.
> Too much fiddling and adjusting,tank you set the pressure and its done.
> Your loosing water,even tho its not much.
> ...


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

futz said:


> I've been using these Apollo 78-325RV (EXV) combination ball valve w/thermal expansion valves for thermal expansion. They're factory set for 80PSI relief (it's what the inspectors here demand), but I sometimes boost that a bit (as Protech did in the video) to keep them from constantly dribbling when customers have their PRV set high.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can you just replace the thermal expansion valve or do you have to replace the entire ball valve?


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

ChrisConnor said:


> Can you just replace the thermal expansion valve or do you have to replace the entire ball valve?


If one failed (I guess it'll happen eventually) I would just spin out the thermal valve and crank in a new one. If I couldn't buy the thermal valve by itself I guess I'd just buy a whole valve, steal the thermal valve and toss the ball valve in the scrap bin. I suspect that replacement thermal valves are or will be available though - haven't checked. Thermal expansion protection has only been a code rule here for a few years now.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

*Watts Gov. 80 Ballcock*



Redwood said:


> Or the customer gets his water bill for $15k and says what the heck and finally finds a relief valve discharging into a drain and asks on some on-line plumbing forum WTF is this thing finally discovering how the rest of the world does it...:laughing:


*OR GOE'S TO HARDWARE BUY'S A COUPLE OF 3/4"

STEEL PIPE PLUGS AND INSTALLS IN RELIEF

VALVE, AND T & P VALVE PRESTO NO MORE

LEAKING WATER ! ! ! :thumbup:

AND YES BEFORE YOU POST I HAVE SEEN HO'S

DO THIS ON MORE THEN ONE OCCASION

THEN CALL ME WHEN THEIR BRAND NEW 

WTR/HTR STARTS LEAKING ALL OVER AND I GET 

TO TELL THEM IT IS "NOT" COVERED BY MFG'S

WARRANTY  :whistling2: 
*


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

*Watts Gov. 80 Ballcock*

*
YES I HAVE INSTALLED WATTS GOV 80 BALLCOCKS

AND I THINK IN THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCE THEY

DO WHAT THEY ARE INTENDED TO DO ! !

PROTECT AGAINST THERMAL EXPANSION :thumbup:

THE THING WITH RELIEF VALVES I HAVE SEEN 

THEM CLOG UP WHEN USED IN OLDER GALV.

PIPING SYSTEMS OR A STUPID HANDYMAN 

INSTALLS A PIPE PLUG

LETS FACE IT NO ONE SYSTEM IS 100% 

FOOLPROOF ALL YOU CAN IS YOUR BEST :thumbup:

AND SOME IDIOT DOE'S NOT TRY TO BYPASS SAFETY

ITEMS THAT WE INSTALL TO PROTECT THEM :thumbup:


*


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

JERRYMAC said:


> *YES I HAVE INSTALLED WATTS GOV 80 BALLCOCKS*


Hey JERRYMAC! Is there some reason for you to constantly *SCREAM* at everyone here? All caps is considered YELLING. We can "hear" ya - no need to yell.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't know what code you would be failing me on but the code in Florida is on STATIC pressure.*

604.8 Water-pressure reducing valve or regulator.* Where water pressure within a building exceeds 80 psi (552 kPa) static, an approved water-pressure reducing valve conforming to ASSE 1003 with strainer shall be installed to reduce the pressure in the building water distribution piping to 80 psi (552 kPa) static or less



TheMaster said:


> It fails safe....hopefully. Thats not for certain. Relief valves can fail from corrosion and fail to function.
> You cannot get a perfect constant 80psi either like a tank will provide...you hafta set it high or it WILL leak prematurely or possibly leak too much.
> Too much fiddling and adjusting,tank you set the pressure and its done.
> Your loosing water,even tho its not much.
> ...


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

We don't have problems here in Mich with thermal expansion, atleast in the residential field, cuz there is no double check valve, or backflow device at meter.No tank or thermal expansion valve (TEV) required, so I understand the problem, you guys have, due to double check valve at meter. So I have a few questions, or suggestions, that I was wondering about. Especially after watching the Protech plumbing video.
That call to replace 1 TEV , that was leaking, must have taken atleast 2 to 3 hrs right? By the time you drain heater, change valve, refill heater, & then wait for it to heat up.
1- Why not install a permanent pressure gage, right on top of heater, so that you or anyone with a pulse, could monitor it easily?
2- Why not install a valve on the hot side of tank too, so that you could then close both hot & cold valves during test, which would isolate the tank, and adjust TEV much faster, as heater is warming up? {I don't think I seen a valve on the hot side in video}.
3- While the heater is warming up, & waiting for pressure to build, if someone inside uses water, or there is a little drip on a faucet, or flapper leak, ect....., wouldn't this void the whole test?
4- I know you can't make everything idiot proof, but I think there should be an air gap type ftg on that discharge pipe from TEV, so it can't be capped.
5- If an RPZ was installed, instead of double check, wouldn't the excess pressure dump out the RPZ, thus acting as extra protection? And someone could see it then too. I know they can't install it undergroud though, like it was in Protech video. TJMO.
P.S. I'm not saying Protech should have done all, or any of this. Just in general, it seems like alot of expense, & time consumption for 1 little valve, & there's got to be a better way.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Don The Plumber said:


> We don't have problems here in Mich with thermal expansion, atleast in the residential field, cuz there is no double check valve, or backflow device at meter.No tank or thermal expansion valve (TEV) required, so I understand the problem, you guys have, due to double check valve at meter. So I have a few questions, or suggestions, that I was wondering about. Especially after watching the Protech plumbing video.
> That call to replace 1 TEV , that was leaking, must have taken atleast 2 to 3 hrs right? By the time you drain heater, change valve, refill heater, & then wait for it to heat up.
> 1- Why not install a permanent pressure gage, right on top of heater, so that you or anyone with a pulse, could monitor it easily?
> 2- Why not install a valve on the hot side of tank too, so that you could then close both hot & cold valves during test, which would isolate the tank, and adjust TEV much faster, as heater is warming up? {I don't think I seen a valve on the hot side in video}.
> ...


You dont hafta drain the tank to install it....what gave you that idea?
Aslong as he set it at 90psi it doesn't matter if the system has leaks....they could get the leaks repaired and they would still have protection.
The airgap is not a bad idea but ones not required on the relief line on the inside so I dont see why they would require it on the pressure only relief.
If the city pressure is really high....the expansion will not be relieved by a pressure reducing valve with bypass until it over-rides the city pressure...which is not acceptable because thats why you have the PRV in the 1st place.
ADD>:IF i where to use those valves protect uses,I would set them in advance with air pressure set at 85psi-90psi
A pressure gauge on top of the heater would not really help much unless an expansion test was done....thermal expansion is not constant.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> You dont hafta drain the tank to install it....what gave you that idea?He said in video that he drained all the heat out,( at 1.55 min on video), I thought he said drained heater, my bad.
> Aslong as he set it at 90psi it doesn't matter if the system has leaks....they could get the leaks repaired and they would still have protection.If there is a leak in the house, lets say a faucet dripping, pressure aint gonna build up, during his thermal expansion pressure test, to enable him to adjust valve, and ensure it works. He was testing it in video, & getting pressure to build up to 90psi.How could he do that if there was a leak, or someone opened a faucet, or flushed a toilet?
> The airgap is not a bad idea but ones not required on the relief line on the inside so I dont see why they would require it on the pressure only relief.
> If the city pressure is really high....the expansion will not be relieved by a pressure reducing valve with bypass until it over-rides the city pressure...which is not acceptable because thats why you have the PRV in the 1st place.
> ADD>:IF i where to use those valves protect uses,I would set them in advance with air pressure set at 85psi-90psi


Great idea( about air pressure preset). But I'm the type that has to make sure it works, the 1st time anyway, by making sure the valve will actually release water pressure at 85psi- 90psi, when the thermal expansion happens while heater is on,(actual test) the same it did with air. After it worked the 1st time, pre adjustment with air pressure, would be the way to go.:thumbsup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> I don't know what code you would be failing me on but the code in Florida is on STATIC pressure.
> 
> *604.8 Water-pressure reducing valve or regulator.* Where water pressure within a building exceeds 80 psi (552 kPa) static, an approved water-pressure reducing valve conforming to ASSE 1003 with strainer shall be installed to reduce the pressure in the building water distribution piping to 80 psi (552 kPa) static or less


WTF are you talking about??? It fails code because your setting them at 90psi. Yes static pressure is when thermal expansion happens by the way and your exceeding it by 10psi. FAIL
Chrisconner,I like how you agree just to agree.....you FAIL too


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

The valve replacement took 20 minutes.

I don't see any need to double valve the heater in that situation, but I guess it couldn't hurt.



Don The Plumber said:


> We don't have problems here in Mich with thermal expansion, atleast in the residential field, cuz there is no double check valve, or backflow device at meter.No tank or thermal expansion valve (TEV) required, so I understand the problem, you guys have, due to double check valve at meter. So I have a few questions, or suggestions, that I was wondering about. Especially after watching the Protech plumbing video.
> That call to replace 1 TEV , that was leaking, must have taken atleast 2 to 3 hrs right? By the time you drain heater, change valve, refill heater, & then wait for it to heat up.
> 1- Why not install a permanent pressure gage, right on top of heater, so that you or anyone with a pulse, could monitor it easily?
> 2- Why not install a valve on the hot side of tank too, so that you could then close both hot & cold valves during test, which would isolate the tank, and adjust TEV much faster, as heater is warming up? {I don't think I seen a valve on the hot side in video}.
> ...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Passes in my state. Passes the pipe ratings too. SHow me a Florida code that fails me and I'll change my ways.

The only other thing that could have been done in that situation would have been to install a PRV as the street pressure was already at 75PSI. At that pressure the valve is going to piss every time a fill valve closes from the spike.



TheMaster said:


> WTF are you talking about??? It fails code because your setting them at 90psi. Yes static pressure is when thermal expansion happens by the way and your exceeding it by 10psi. FAIL
> Chrisconner,I like how you agree just to agree.....you FAIL too


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> Passes in my state. Passes the pipe ratings too. SHow me a Florida code that fails me and I'll change my ways.
> 
> The only other thing that could have been done in that situation would have been to install a PRV as the street pressure was already at 75PSI. At that pressure the valve is going to piss every time a fill valve closes from the spike.


The valve you use from barnett is not listed for what your using it for.
The second part of your post is why a tanks better....it can be set at the proper psi and it will control the expansion more precisely. I'm not asking you to change but your way has its problems too and shouldn't be considerd the best way.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Yeah, until it fails and fills up with water. Then that 90 PSI will be nothing compared to the 150 PSI the system will see due to uncontrolled thermal expansion. Ever see what cpvc pipe does when subjected to 150 PSI at 160 degrees? Can you say flood?

Nah, I'm good. If the inspector/home owner doesn't like the valve set at 90 PSI then the HO will be paying for a pressure reducing valve.

A valve fails safe, a tank does not. Now if you want to install a tank AND a valve then I'm right there with you. IMHO though, the valve is the most important component and is not omit-able in a closed system. Period.



TheMaster said:


> The valve you use from barnett is not listed for what your using it for.
> *The second part of your post is why a tanks better*....it can be set at the proper psi and it will control the expansion more precisely. I'm not asking you to change but your way has its problems too and shouldn't be considerd the best way.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> Yeah, until it fails and fills up with water. Then that 90 PSI will be nothing compared to the 150 PSI the system will see due to uncontrolled thermal expansion. Ever see what cpvc pipe does when subjected to 150 PSI at 160 degrees? Can you say flood?
> 
> Nah, I'm good. If the inspector/home owner doesn't like the valve set at 90 PSI then the HO will be paying for a pressure reducing valve.
> 
> A valve fails safe, a tank does not. Now if you want to install a tank AND a valve then I'm right there with you. IMHO though, the valve is the most important component and is not omit-able in a closed system. Period.


 Well its not approved for thermal expansion control by itself. My guess is it acts too late is the reason why. Its not reliable precise control and a tank is. Tanks dont fail safe but yours fails everytime the pressure goes north of 80psi and that could be happening daily and it fails to comply. Nobodys asking you to change but just acknowledge your exceeding the psi and thats not proper.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Well, if it's not approved for it, then maybe you should move here and make a fortune changing out the tens of thousands of them that were built (with a building officials endorsement) into new homes in the central Florida area. :whistling2:



TheMaster said:


> Well its not approved for thermal expansion control by itself. My guess is it acts too late is the reason why. Its not reliable precise control and a tank is. Tanks dont fail safe but yours fails everytime the pressure goes north of 80psi and that could be happening daily and it fails to comply. Nobodys asking you to change but just acknowledge your exceeding the psi and thats not proper.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> Well, if it's not approved for it, then maybe you should move here and make a fortune changing out the tens of thousands of them that were built (with a building officials endorsement) into new homes in the central Florida area. :whistling2:


So thats how you justify exceeding the pressure requirement by 10psi? Tens of thousands of installs doesn't make correct. That particular valve is not approved for it....some are but cost more than 7.00:laughing:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Sounds like you need to write the Florida code counsel a letter as this seems to bother you and only you.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> Sounds like you need to write the Florida code counsel a letter as this seems to bother you and only you.


 No need to write the letter its already written in the code as 80psi. It doesn't surprise me its not enforced. A bladder tank offers more precise control and when your at the upper limits of the allowable pressure it matters.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> So thats how you justify exceeding the pressure requirement by 10psi? Tens of thousands of installs doesn't make correct. That particular valve is not approved for it....some are but cost more than 7.00:laughing:


Simmer Down TM!
We can't save the world from Tin House on Wheels Plumbing...:laughing:


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