# New Rule in Plumbing



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

My company will NOT give in house free estimates for gas line installations ever again.


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## wyplumber (Feb 14, 2013)

I take it there is a certain reason why


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> My company will NOT give in house free estimates for gas line installations ever again.


Do tell...


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> Do tell...


Maybe the H.O. tied him to a table . . . just sayin'


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

It all depends on which one of the 5 companies of his he is talking about


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

You might be over thinking your bids.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

What's happening, Dunbar, getting tired of folks "considering" an new six burner stove top and oven, then saying "oh, I can't believe it's that much for you to crawl around under my house and run a little bit of pipe, I'm already spending a lot of money on the cooktop!" :laughing:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Chris nailed it. 


You can't negotiate price with the cost of the $1000-$1500 gas stove but you think you can whittle the plumber down for his time?


I got a 20% success rate, meaning I get 2 out of every 10 estimates I bid on these gas lines, got 25 damn years in this biz knowing the cost and time factor on these to a tee. And I'm not about to lowball them to get them. They want a top number and I can't give that over the phone. 


So... it's time to give up on this task. You want an estimate it will place me in the home charging to view the situation to accurately determine the costs involved. I explained my course of action on the last estimated job, saw the work was done tonight, just as I explained starting from the outside gas meter. 

I'll never get that customer ever again knowing the 'other' guy did the work, which usually creates a forcefield between service provider and property owner forever, simply because a bid wasn't accepted. This guy also beat me down before I left. 

Gas line jobs are labor intensive running black iron. If you want it done in that fashion. I won't run flex, another hardship I put back at myself because of my desire to use what has worked for decades, and I trust its value. 

That puts me as odd man out, usually and even though the price of flex to hard piping is similiar, just a difference in labor costs... I'm done with people not being realistic and *I'd rather lose a customer over refusal to pay for an estimate than to waste my valued time visiting a potential jobsite with a great chance of losing the customer forever by not being the chosen bid.*

*Customers are a dime a dozen to the phone ringing when you're good, why am I trying to please them all. <<< Subconcious is speaking clearly to me this evening.*


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## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

That's how I feel about water softeners. They seem cut throat.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*Gas work sucks*

Weedhopper.... you have finally learned to choose your battles wisely......

I gave up on bidding gas work a long time ago for
about the same reasons.... they crap a brick when 
you give them a price...... it is a total waste of your time and no one is happy cutting gas pipe in the yard...

I have a fellow that works for the gas company and I just throw all these stove top moves and gas grill installs to him.....and he only gets about half of them.:blink::blink:

Also, the only time I get an emergency gas leak is always after hours or on the weekends.... I throw them to him too.....

I JUST DONT CARE for GAS work anymore...

the only thing I have asked of this fellow is when I need a favor , he better do it for free...:thumbup::thumbup:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

That made me feel better Mark... I knew it was a matter of time. Knowing your years in the biz I know you are seasoned enough to make that statement and know the beatdown.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

cant say any of this rings true for me, I bid and get gas work all the time


oooya , everybodys happy when done


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

GREENPLUM said:


> cant say any of this rings true for me, I bid and get gas work all the time
> 
> 
> oooya , everybodys happy when done



Glad to hear it, but ya know what they say if ya get everything ya bid...


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

...ya ain't biddin them right.


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## antiCon (Jun 15, 2012)

thats funny that same thing happened to me a month or so ago.. owner says "i need a gas line ran to my island for this new cook top i bought" 
I looked around gave a bid for 2200.00 or so.. and said " we are gonna need to saw cut your floor since your house is on a slab" he about passed out.. while telling me "what do you mean ?? the floor is 2 months old!!


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## KCplumber (Dec 31, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> Weedhopper.... you have finally learned to choose your battles wisely......
> 
> I gave up on bidding gas work a long time ago for
> about the same reasons.... they crap a brick when
> ...


That is exactly what I've been doing for years


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## Radium (Dec 25, 2010)

That's it!!! I'm done doing gas work too. Anybody want to buy my stock???


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

antiCon said:


> thats funny that same thing happened to me a month or so ago.. owner says "i need a gas line ran to my island for this new cook top i bought"
> I looked around gave a bid for 2200.00 or so.. and said " we are gonna need to saw cut your floor since your house is on a slab" he about passed out.. while telling me "what do you mean ?? the floor is 2 months old!!


How else did he think you wold get the gas to the island?


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## sjaquay (Jan 13, 2013)

perfect timing for this poll. im on call tonite and i got a call about 7pm, they wanted a "FREE" estinate on replacing their gas line. told them all i can do is have the office call them in the morning, this is after hours and ill come out, but its gonna cost them. needless to say, im still at home. i hate those call. you know theyre gonna have 8 different companies show up and only take the cheapest, without checking BBB or references. we are not the cheapest, but we do quality work and have an A+ bbb rating and high rank on angies list. i gave a guy a hell of a price of $1800 one time and he said " ill pay you $600" i said "sir, its $1800" he tried again "ill pay you $800 but no more" i just handed him his copy and said its $1800, call if you want it done and left. the nerve of some people....oh yeah, he was from one of those countries that always think they should get lower prices.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Had a guy roll up to my shop while I was working on some equipment. "I need a quote on running two short gas lines. It won't take more than 20 minutes and some other guy thought he was going to retire off of this job. I need a line for gas logs and a gas stove."  Really, I could give you a quote. I figure it might be a pain and figured it was way up there due to the conversation. So, I asked how much was this guy taking you for. A whopping $800! :laughing: He decided to walk off without giving me his info while I was laughing at him. I didn't even get a chance to get a word out. Retire on his job...:laughing:


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

Epox said:


> How else did he think you wold get the gas to the island?


Maybe drop it in from the lid, and sleeve it in a brass stripper pole? That's what I was thinking.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

sjaquay said:


> perfect timing for this poll. im on call tonite and i got a call about 7pm, they wanted a "FREE" estinate on replacing their gas line. told them all i can do is have the office call them in the morning, this is after hours and ill come out, but its gonna cost them. needless to say, im still at home. i hate those call. you know theyre gonna have 8 different companies show up and only take the cheapest, without checking BBB or references. we are not the cheapest, but we do quality work and have an A+ bbb rating and high rank on angies list. i gave a guy a hell of a price of $1800 one time and he said " ill pay you $600" i said "sir, its $1800" he tried again "ill pay you $800 but no more" i just handed him his copy and said its $1800, call if you want it done and left. the nerve of some people....oh yeah, he was from one of those countries that always think they should get lower prices.


Ahhh, taken in by the BBB.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

mightypipe said:


> Maybe drop it in from the lid, and sleeve it in a brass stripper pole? That's what I was thinking.


lol, or clamp hooks to the pipe and hang pots off it.


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

does anybody charge for the bid and if they get the job credit the estimate off of it ? that way its only a free estimate if they use you and your not gonna lose out if they dont.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

dclarke said:


> does anybody charge for the bid and if they get the job credit the estimate off of it ? that way its only a free estimate if they use you and your not gonna lose out if they dont.



Oldest trick in the book, and what only matters is IF they commit to that design. But why give your expertise away for free when your job is to make income. 

I probably dismiss a great majority of riff-raff just by 'not' having the words free in any part of my marketing/advertising strategies. However, repeat customers, those who have spent money with us get a free pass... most times just because I value their willingness to spend again, having the prior relationship as an enforcement.


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

I rarely get calls to run gas pipe inside, but AZ is a Mecca for outdoor gas fixtures like BBQ islands, fire woks, fire pits etc. I've chummed up with two different Hardscape contractors recently, and they throw me a bunch of work. Done six of them in the last two months. The thing I like about them, is the trench is dug when I get there (they always have laborers) and they just don't want the liability. I give them straight by the foot prices... The one I finished today, the contractor didn't even ask for a bid on. A tape and a calculator had already given him the price.


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

I agree with the OP about interior gas work though... People will think nothing of dropping $3000 on a couch, but often have a heart attack when you tell them $1800 to run a gas line.


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

mightypipe said:


> I agree with the OP about interior gas work though... People will think nothing of dropping $3000 on a couch, but often have a heart attack when you tell them $1800 to run a gas line.


So true. I had one guy in who wanted a natural gas line run to the outside for his grill. His $6,400 Viking grill. Gave him a price of $1300 or so and he about flipped.


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

johntheplumber said:


> So true. I had one guy in who wanted a natural gas line run to the outside for his grill. His $6,400 Viking grill. Gave him a price of $1300 or so and he about flipped.


You should have sold him a propane bottle and an orifice kit... Lol


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

I think I'm done too . 

Now that they sell csst at the big box stores ,,,, let 'em do it themselves .


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Im fixing to load up the 300 threader right now to run some gas to a fireplace for logs. :thumbsup:

Gonna be cold out, this will be on the exterior of the building. But well make some $.


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

Cal said:


> I think I'm done too .
> 
> Now that they sell csst at the big box stores ,,,, let 'em do it themselves .


This is one of my biggest problems with the big box stores. Faucet, toilet, drains, ok the HO or handyman is gonna cause water damage. CSST in their hands is going to KILL people!!!


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

johntheplumber said:


> So true. I had one guy in who wanted a natural gas line run to the outside for his grill. His $6,400 Viking grill. Gave him a price of $1300 or so and he about flipped.


 
Thats because they think of us as no different than the mail deliver, or trash collector. To them we are just guys with our names on our shirts and should not be making that kind of money. 

If I ever give a plumbing business another go, there will be nothing for free. How can you pay someone (you should be paying yourself if a OMS) and pay for gas to give a FREE estimate.


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

easttexasplumb said:


> Thats because they think of us as no different than the mail deliver, or trash collector. To them we are just guys with our names on our shirts and should not be making that kind of money.
> 
> If I ever give a plumbing business another go, there will be nothing for free. How can you pay someone (you should be paying yourself if a OMS) and pay for gas to give a FREE estimate.


I always want to say, "It takes 12,000 working ours to get your masters license. It took you what, 2000 hours for that degree. Oh and by the way, I hold the power of life and death in my hands every day." 

I don't of course but I'd love to someday.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

The only way to do gas is IF you are doing the rest of the plumbing in a new construction scenario, room addition or remodel,,,,,,,,,


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## antiCon (Jun 15, 2012)

Epox said:


> How else did he think you wold get the gas to the island?


Lol idk but he was a wireless IT guy


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

He thought you were gonna put in a pipeless gas router.


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## sjaquay (Jan 13, 2013)

johntheplumber said:


> This is one of my biggest problems with the big box stores. Faucet, toilet, drains, ok the HO or handyman is gonna cause water damage. CSST in their hands is going to KILL people!!!


absolutely, especially because you know that not one of the people that buy it and do it will in no way ground it at all, and by by house......then the big box will get sued for millions and then theyll stop selling it, to bad someones gonna have to die for them to wise the "F" up....


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

sjaquay said:


> absolutely, especially because you know that not one of the people that buy it and do it will in no way ground it at all, and by by house......then the big box will get sued for millions and then theyll stop selling it, to bad someones gonna have to die for them to wise the "F" up....


No joke.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

At lowest tonite. Lady bought a water heater. I almost walked up to her and asked mam you have a permit for that. Just to see what she'd say. It made me mad to see her buy it !!


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> At lowest tonite. Lady bought a water heater. I almost walked up to her and asked mam you have a permit for that. Just to see what she'd say. It made me mad to see her buy it !!


You should have. Why not? It's supposed to be permitted, but it won't be.


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> At lowest tonite. Lady bought a water heater. I almost walked up to her and asked mam you have a permit for that. Just to see what she'd say. It made me mad to see her buy it !!


Supposedly the province next door to me has a registry type system where every gas appliance sold has to be registered with the number of the gas-fitter that installed it. 

Any guys from Saskatchewan want to confirm or deny that?

It's a good idea on one hand, but it goes against my preference of less govt on the other hand.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

At one time, 


Anytime someone bought a gas fired appliance they'd stick to that regimen, meaning the calls would come in that "We have to have a licensed plumber install this gas line."

That disappeared in 2007-8, completely. :icon_redface:


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## Hoozycoozy (Apr 26, 2011)

johntheplumber said:


> This is one of my biggest problems with the big box stores. Faucet, toilet, drains, ok the HO or handyman is gonna cause water damage. CSST in their hands is going to KILL people!!!


Exactly. I worked at one of these places as a plumbing pro, when the economy around here was slow... Saw all kinds of cst bought, and no matter how much I pleaded, begged, explained the danger... Never sold a single bonding clamp.. Not one. Smh


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> At one time,
> 
> 
> Anytime someone bought a gas fired appliance they'd stick to that regimen, meaning the calls would come in that "We have to have a licensed plumber install this gas line."
> ...


Yes DUNBAR what happened to change that law ? anybody know ?


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

What's funny to me is we have to be certified by the manufactures to install their stuff. And anyone can buy it from box stores.


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## plumb1bob (Dec 14, 2012)

I won't touch gas logs,won't even go on estimates. The local CHIMNEY co. that sells gas logs, fireplaces, NG gas grilles, hooks up their onw product. Their installers run 3/8" refrigeration copper to every thing, drlill a hole through concrete, block, and woo, no wall sleeves. Usually they tie in to the gas line off the bottom of the drip leg on the water heater or furnace. Customers get two options from my company when we see it. Price to do it right or sign off on explanation of how dangerous this is. If installing new equipment we build proper connection in the price or disconnection of appliance. In PA. box store delivery employees won't connect a new stove if there is no shut off at the appliance.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I had that happen to me too. Gas leak jobs are pretty easy to get but, adding gas lines almost never happens. People just about shiot when you give them the price. I've had people that were spending literally a million dollars on their patio complain about a 2k cost to pipe the gas.


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

I read once that customers are so wired into the menu multiple choice world that if they got offered a lowest | mid | highest choice, they most often picked mid. Have you guys tried giving the customer choices?


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

My favorite gas comment is. " it should be easy to hook up the appliance the gas line is right underneath it.

Sorry I have to disconnect all the way back to " fixture" and install a tee, then pipe line in, then disconnect appliances, them pressure test, then I can hook it up.

It will cost 750 plus permit

Insert whining and complaining.... I didn't know that when I bought it off kijiji, I saw that it would be close to gas line.

AARrgh!


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

Relic said:


> I read once that customers are so wired into the menu multiple choice world that if they got offered a lowest | mid | highest choice, they most often picked mid. Have you guys tried giving the customer choices?


Joe Carisa is great at this! You should check him out on linked in and on his website. He is all about the choices. I encourage the guys to give options and you'd be surprised at how many times the customer picks the more expensive option. People like to shop. They like gadgets. It's weird that a lot of plumbers think upsell is such a bad word. I don't think of it like that. If I take John to the Bass Pro Shop, he's buying something whether he needs it or not. Why not have a little catalogue of the stuff you sell that people can look through and options you can give them? I think it's a great idea and definitely something I want to learn more about and implement.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Just gave a $2800 proposal for getting gas to a new furnace and fireplace. 

Cust: "But everyone knows gas is cheaper than electric. You are obviously overcharging." :laughing:


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> Just gave a $2800 proposal for getting gas to a new furnace and fireplace.
> 
> Cust: "But everyone knows gas is cheaper than electric. You are obviously overcharging." :laughing:


omg that's funny :laughing::laughing:


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> Just gave a $2800 proposal for getting gas to a new furnace and fireplace.
> 
> Cust: "But everyone knows gas is cheaper than electric. You are obviously overcharging." :laughing:


Wow, did you slap her in the face? That's a candidate for the dumbest statement of the year.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

aprilmayb said:


> Joe Carisa is great at this! You should check him out on linked in and on his website. He is all about the choices. I encourage the guys to give options and you'd be surprised at how many times the customer picks the more expensive option. People like to shop. They like gadgets. It's weird that a lot of plumbers think upsell is such a bad word. I don't think of it like that. If I take John to the Bass Pro Shop, he's buying something whether he needs it or not. Why not have a little catalogue of the stuff you sell that people can look through and options you can give them? I think it's a great idea and definitely something I want to learn more about and implement.




I did that a few years ago an I've had excellent results with it. 

I put together a nice 3 ring binder, made a high quality printing of the AO Smith product cataloge and obtained product brochures from my saleman on all items in the book to give the customer. I also had a nice company logo on the front cover but since switching jobs I haven't replaced it yet. 

It's important for it to be nice glossy and presentable.. After I made this I took it to my supervisor to present to him. He loved the idea and had them made for the other guys.. Only he didn't make it as nice as mine, he used low quality printing and it really made a huge difference. 

I sit down at the table with the customer, present all information on the item, then sit and listen. Then address questions and concerns, then and only then I give the price.. Price is always last..








































Options are very important. Upsell is not a bad word.. If I didn't make the customer aware of all options available to her then I wouldn't be doing my job.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> I did that a few years ago an I've had excellent results with it.
> 
> I put together a nice 3 ring binder, made a high quality printing of the AO Smith product cataloge and obtained product brochures from my saleman on all items in the book to give the customer. I also had a nice company logo on the front cover but since switching jobs I haven't replaced it yet.
> 
> ...


Oh my gosh I love it! Great job! OK, let me ask you this, do you include stuff like kitchen faucets and toilets? I asked 2 of my suppliers recently what they always keep in stock in regard to kitchen faucets so I could add them to the guys notebooks. It was like pulling teeth. I still haven't got a straight answer.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

aprilmayb said:


> Oh my gosh I love it! Great job! OK, let me ask you this, do you include stuff like kitchen faucets and toilets? I asked 2 of my suppliers recently what they always keep in stock in regard to kitchen faucets so I could add them to the guys notebooks. It was like pulling teeth. I still haven't got a straight answer.




The perfect book would include toilets, faucets, sump pumps, back up sump pumps.. Just about anything I could sell new..In mine however I only have water heaters and toilets. 

I'm surprised your supplier hasn't met your needs. Its important to have a working relationship with a salesman at the supply house.. 

All suppliers get this literature from the manufacturers, it's a sales tool. 

If you make a trip to the supply house you should find a ton of different manufacturer literature there.. At least at mine he has a nice little section with this info on just about everything they sell. 


You can also make high quality printings off manufacturers websites.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

For high end water heaters especially it's important to leave one of the nice brochures with the customer. I have a stack of each one I hand to the customer at the time of estimate. Then after job is complete I have a nice folder with the company logo on it that I give to the customer which includes one of the brochures, her invoice my business card and any other info I think might be of importance. 

Customers eat it up. 

I get "wow so professional" all the time.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

aprilmayb said:


> Oh my gosh I love it! Great job! OK, let me ask you this, do you include stuff like kitchen faucets and toilets? I asked 2 of my suppliers recently what they always keep in stock in regard to kitchen faucets so I could add them to the guys notebooks. It was like pulling teeth. I still haven't got a straight answer.


You need a new salesman. They have some great people over at Morrisons.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Chris nailed it.
> 
> 
> You can't negotiate price with the cost of the $1000-$1500 gas stove but you think you can whittle the plumber down for his time?
> ...


 
send it in email.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

johntheplumber said:


> This is one of my biggest problems with the big box stores. Faucet, toilet, drains, ok the HO or handyman is gonna cause water damage. CSST in their hands is going to KILL people!!!


John , I agree with you 100% . but we are screwed here !! Had my continued education class yesterday and it was matter of discussion . After a couple minutes we all just kind of looked down at the floor and dropped the subject . 

It's just not right ,,, csst sold at the big box stores .


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

They sell BI pipe and materials at HD and blowes , cut and thread pipe for free also.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Relic said:


> I read once that customers are so wired into the menu multiple choice world that if they got offered a lowest | mid | highest choice, they most often picked mid. Have you guys tried giving the customer choices?


This is very true, that's why I offer 3 different packages for tank water heater installs.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

aprilmayb said:


> Oh my gosh I love it! Great job! OK, let me ask you this, do you include stuff like kitchen faucets and toilets? I asked 2 of my suppliers recently what they always keep in stock in regard to kitchen faucets so I could add them to the guys notebooks. It was like pulling teeth. I still haven't got a straight answer.


Be careful on selling brand and underselling your company. The customer can buy fixtures from any plumber. How does your book sell your company and service?


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I would hope we all have web sites. Insert into your web site files that show the fixtures you supply. Remove all prices. Allow your customer to like the product for the product verse price without you influencing. Most people will figure a way to get the money when they like a product or mysteriously come up with the money. Forget the books with pictures they are not what the customer chooses. Let the customer shop on your website. They visit your competition’s web site and see nothing. When you’re at the customers home take them to your web site and let them shop.

At the end of the day it will come down to how you communicate the customer’s value to the product. What you must do is present the solution with choices and if the book helps you present the choices do it. However you do not need a book. I can present the same water heater 7 different ways how will a book do that? 2 water heaters the same size presented 14 different ways upsize the heater another 7 ways. Add a tank less heater you have just added another offering.

The concept is the same with every product give the customer choices some think 3 some think 6 or 7 some think 5 and some believe 2 is enough. 1 thing is for sure too many and you will confuse the customer not enough choices and you have, do it or bye bye. Some people think you should have a ridiculously high number and vice versa a ridiculously low offering that puts the home owner to work. These 2 are automatically thrown out of the equation to get to the lower number of choices. I do not like this method as it takes unfair advantage of the customer’s emotion but it does not mean it is wrong it is something I would not do.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

This is a good post. I have noticed the same thing. 

About a week ago, I decided to start charging $39 for the estimate. I explain that I need to come out and verify that their existing line can support the demand. I do this while in the process of giving them an estimate. So far it has been working well.


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