# Vibrating noise from toilet



## IrishPlumber (Jul 16, 2009)

Hi,

There is a vibrating noise coming from two of our toilets. It started with the one in the en-suite upstairs, and now the one downstairs has begun making the noise. It stops if I run the cold tap in the sink beside the toilet but starts again when I turn the tap off. The only way I have found to stop it for a while is to turn the gate valve in the hotpress off (I think this is the pipe that is leading the cold water from the tank upstairs into the house) and then turn it back on again after a minute or two. This will stop the vibrating but it usually starts again a couple of hours later.

Any help / suggestions?


Hey this is my first post for advice, noticed this on a Irish forum and responded with some questions to obtain more info before I give advice. 
What do you guys make of it? 

Over here toilet supply is normally fed by use of a cold water tank located in the attic. The pressure is simply gravity. Also sometimes we get whats known as water hammer. When a ball cock rapidly opens and closes due to waves formed on the water, it creates this banging sound. The banging sound comes from the un supported pipe work associated with the ball cock. I don't think this is possible to occur on a toilet. Only moving water can create sounds throughout pipe work so I am interested to see what the cause could be. By the sound of the post after the cistern is full they are hearing some kind of vibration. But whats creating it?


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## M5Plumb (Oct 2, 2008)

Take a look at the stop valves being opened all the way and back seated if they are not already, had this happen too many times, the HO thinks it's water hammer but isn't. 
Aside from that, check to see if a PRV is installed and regulate the pressure either up or down to see if the frequency changes or goes away.


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## Christina (Jul 14, 2009)

I have had two fill valves act up on me both within two weeks of each other. They were brand new, and it has been about a year ago. We use Fluidmaster Assemblies here but I am unsure of what is in your stools. I also got a slight, sounded like vibration, but not from the pipes. It was like someone had set a miniature baby rattlesnake under the cap of the fluidmaster. I tried just replacing the replacement seal in it. Finally gave up, exchanged top portion on one and it fixed problem. The second one we had to replace the whole thing. I believe it was dirt/gravel/rock/sand of the right size that would not let it seal... but almost would... not real sure. Have you tried replacing?


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## IrishPlumber (Jul 16, 2009)

This problem is posted up on a Irish forum, I am not actually able to view the house. I have asked what kind of filler valve is in the cistern and if the supply pipe is under any kind of pressure, but awaiting a response.

In Ireland we store our cold service water in a tank located in the attic. The height of the tank determines the pressure its not assisted by any booster pumps its just natural gravity that causes the water to move. So this supply has very little pressure. That is why I am curious to find out whats causing the problem. 

When I find out what kind of filler assembly is in the cistern I guess we can determine the cause of the vibration.


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

it could be a weak diaphragm in the ballcock or a loose washer in the stop valve if you have one.


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## trout lake (May 9, 2009)

Welcome
You Irish do it different don't you￼
Feeding the crappers from a holding tank using gravity feed is a bit different. We us to use the same principal on older boiler systems with their expansion tanks in attics.

I would think that it is probably "not" a problem associated with the flush or fill mechanism in the toilet. The reason I say that is because both units seemed to fail simultaneously. Chances are remote.
I would look for the problem at the holding tank. Either a main valve chattering, or a vent blocked. If the tank is gravity as you indicated, it needs to be vented. If there is a minor restriction it will cause cavitations and the types of problem you indicate.
The rest of the house, I assume, is on a separate system. If no problems at other outlets, it’s a good starting point.
keep us posted
tl


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## tnoisaw (Jun 16, 2009)

Turn one toilet off and see if anything happens. If not, to the same with the other one. Mostnlikely one of the fill valves are bad. 

I had a call at a call center years ago about vibrating pipes. I traced it to a toilet in the womens room. After replacing the fill valve it stopped. Most likely loose parts that are not meant to be loose.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

This must be a really old house if it has a gravity tank. What fills the tank? A hand pump or electric auto fill pump? I'd be surprised if you could get water hammer with such low pressure. It could be a loose valve washer. If the washer pops off of the valve stem on a stop valve it will vibrate like a reed in the valve chamber when under flow.

Hey irishplumber, why don’t you snap some pics of the plumbing over there? We would love to see how you folks do things compared to North American plumbing.


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

I agree with pro tech send us some pics of irish plumbing and we will send pics of american potatoes lol


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## IrishPlumber (Jul 16, 2009)

Hello Folks, thank you for your replies. I best mention this again, I cant get into the house to see the problem, its a post on a Irish Forum looking for advice on the matter. I have asked the original poster some questions to determine where exactly the vibrations are coming from and have yet to receive an answer. As soon as I find out I'll let you know.

I try and answer some questions you have on Irish Plumbing. 

First thing to note is, there is little or no regulation on plumbing systems here. Everyone and there Uncle is an expert plumber and people with little or no qualification have striving plumbing businesses. During our building boom time was money so systems were installed quick and cheap. The only strict regulation is with our Natural Gas supply. Our LPG suppliers are still in the dark ages so once a tank is fitted anything can happen to the Gas line. 
Lucky so far there has been no disasters or catastrophes. 

I'll break down a traditional Irish plumbing system for those interested to hear. We have a fresh water mains supply from the State and if no mains supply is available we drill into a fresh water well. The State supply is free to use (residential) and you can obtain State financial assistance for the fresh water well. 

Once you have determined your fresh water supply you pipe it into your kitchen, under the sink with a shut off valve. After the valve you split it to supply to your sink tap and then to the attic cold water storage tank. The only location for drinking water is at the kitchen sink. 

The cold water storage tank is located above all outlets. A minimum height of 1 meter above all outlets is advised. You then drill your cold water storage tank to provide two supply's. One supply for the hot water cylinder and the other for cold water supply's. These supply's are then piped to a "Hot press" and valved. I guess you could call our hot press your basement. The hot press is located in the house in a small room and its called a hot press because its where the hot water cylinder is stored. Most home owners shelve out the hot press and fill it with laundry, wet clothes, towels, sheets, linen etc etc as its a hot room its ideal for storage of these items. The problem is all the plumbing and heating controls are also located there so the term "Can you clear out your hot press" is regularly used when a plumber enters the house. 

From the hot press your hot and cold pipe work heads of to its desired location. All gravity feed pressure. The Hot water cylinder is filled from the bottom by the dedicated cylinder supply. The hot water then comes out the top and its split, one pipe goes to the taps etc and the the other goes back up to the attic tank as is raised above the cold water storage tank and provides the vent for the cylinder. This is our plumbing in a very basic form to help you understand the principle it does get a bit more technical if you require more pressure but all the plumbing systems are installed on this basis. 

Since minimal regulation/code enforcements in Ireland this typical installation can be completely different from house to house. You really have to be experienced and ahead of your game to become good at maintenance and to have a clear understanding of where supply's are coming from. 

Ferry loads of foreign fittings, devices, pipes etc arrive at our plumbing suppliers and to be honest its very hard to maintain houses as there's no standard. Its a free for all when it comes to plumbing installations. 

Hope the info provided can give you a good idea of our systems and if you have any questions let me know, maybe talk about the heating systems.

I'll try and get some pictures soon.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Wow, that sounds like a nightmare. I used to work for Michael’s Plumbing of Central Fl and the owner(Mike Reynolds) said the same thing about the plumbing back home(he is Irish).


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## Christina (Jul 14, 2009)

*Wow...*

Thank You for that interesting information!! That was very educational for me. I do have a question though... How is the sewage/ grey water handled? ie: lateral lines, lagoons, etc?


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## IrishPlumber (Jul 16, 2009)

No bother cdpunneo. I'll give a brief description of wastes and soils.

In build up areas there is a main sewer line which leads to a local waste water treatment plant. In oldtimes if a sewer was not available you would install a septic tank, normally found at the end of the garden. The waste water would be stored in the septic tank and would break down naturally by bacteria etc you would often find people throwing dead animals into the pit to encourage the bacteria. After the waste has broken down it leaves the septic tank and makes its way to a peculation area. A peculation area is a pit filled with different course stone. The water filters through the stone into the earth. 

Septic tanks are still in use here but on new builds the condition of the soil around the house has to be tested for suitable peculation. Most cases the soil is not suitable so a miniature waste water treatment must be installed. Its similar to a septic tank buried in the earth, but the waste is treated in a different more environmentally safe way. After its treated the waste goes into a similar peculation area.

A plumber is only responsible for the internal waste and external stack. It is up to the home owner/builders ground workers to take the waste lines to either the sewer or house hold treatment plant. Our rain water gully's/drains are separate from the waste water. The rain water makes its way to the peculation area separate.

From toilets, showers, baths etc you pipe the outlets to the outside. Located on a external wall you will find the vented soil stack and you connect all your outlets to the stack. The stack then rises to roof level or 1 meter above any opening to vent. A lot of plumbers and home owners here believe this is to vent out smells. The concept of an opening to allow gravity to assist the waste movement is not made aware so problems do arise. All the stacks are connected to the terminations provided by the ground workers. From then on the ground works look after access junctions etc and make the connections to the sewer/tank etc. 

All the related pipe work is normally plastic. 4" stacks and from 1 1/4" up to 2" for the outlet waste pipes. The majority of houses you will see the soil stacks and waste pipes running along external walls, free for all the public to see in all there glory. I try to promote the use of hidden internal stacks but more often external stacks are considered before internal. 

One last mention, the majority of time these stacks/wastes are not tested to soundness until the the home owner starts to put them to use. By this stage its too late and you regularly return to house holds to fix leaks. It can be a nightmare. The fittings on waste pipe from 1 1/4" to 2" are glued with a plastic solvent cement. The fittings above 2" are rubber seal push fit.


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## Plumb-A-Holic (Jun 22, 2009)

2" push fit on plastic? Sounds like a tye seal. Ya'll have some wild plumbing over yonder!


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## Christina (Jul 14, 2009)

*Wow!!!*

That is awesome to know. Your pecusaltion is what we have down for our lateral systems moreless. Except here in Oklahoma, USA I know we refer to it as a perk test. The exiting line from the septic goes out to what we refer to as lateral lines. That consist of a large ditchline backfilled with gravel 1/2 way, the a lighweight PVC with holes drilled evenly (approximately 3- 1/2" holes per 5") as to allow the filtered sewage to seep back runs through the gravel then covered with dirt as to allow the landscape to hide the lateral lines (except in Oklahoma I know that is where the pretty green grass grows during the heat of summer). More recently we have been introduced to a filtration system, the brand I am familiar with is Infiltrator. 








It is a very simple system to install and does away with the lateral system. www.*infiltrators*ystems.com That is their website if you are interested in just looking at them. It is a plastic doam that the sewage flows into and disburses. Set up like a lateral line system but this does away with the perf (perforated pipe) and gravel. 

How neat it has been hearing how things are there... Thank You!!


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## trout lake (May 9, 2009)

Great information Irish

The systems sound like someting you'd find in the hobbit where Harry did the install and Dumbledorf and Gandolf are the chief inspectors.

I get to the UK on a regular basis and have seen first hand some of the "strange" (at least to North American standards) practices in the outlying areas where my Gypsy relations reside. I love working with the old systems where lead and oakum were the order of the day.
I am facinated by the pictures of your country and the thatch roof pubs look like they store the finest Guinness on the planet. Hope to visit soon. 
tl
ps. your descriptions were clear and articulate and easy to follow. Good job. It's clear to see you know your stuff


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## IrishPlumber (Jul 16, 2009)

No problem happy to help. The poster with the original flush problem has not come back to me so will see how it goes. cdpunneo a lot of the information you gave made perfect sense. We too have the perforated pipes located in the soak areas for treated waste water and storm water. 

Funny you should mention the thatch pub, here's my local, I could throw a stone and hit it. A thatched pub after it snowed. It doesn't snow often so you take a picture.


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## trout lake (May 9, 2009)

Hey Irish
For those on the site that have never lifted a glass in a thatch roofed pub on a cold winters nite, have never lived.
I remember such an evening at a pub called the Rams Head in the Cots Welds in mid December.
I dropped in for a pint and after the first, found myself a bit peckish and decided I should grab a bite to go with the Victoria Birtters I was tipping back. I ordered the Chilli and crusty roll. The serving girl returned 15 minutes later and placed my bowl down in front of me. It was steaming hot and filled to the brim. I dug into it and noticed small bits of carrots in the receipt. Now I have to tell you.....I always fancied that the Chilli that I make is the best ever. The carrots were a new twist and 
this stuff blew the sock off of mine. I know how much pride I take in mine and felt that it would fitting to tell the cook how absolutely great his receipt was. I called the server girl over. I wanted her to get the chef so I could comment on the product.
"Excuse me young lady, could you get the cook for me, tell him it's about his/her Chilli"
I hadn't paid close attention but one of the chaps sitting at the bar was dressed in a white jacket and pants. He must have been all of 250 lbs. When he heard my comment to the server he spun around on his stool and said with a glaring look, "I'm the cook, what’s the problem?" I think he must have been prepared for some slagging about his food and by the looks of him, ready to rip my head off. I told him how I always fancied my Chilli the best ever but his was in a league of it's own. He sat down at my table and we proceeded to share a pint and exchange our Chilli secrets.

I love thatch pubs and I love the mind set of people from that part of the world.
cheers
tl


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## Bulldog Plumbing (Nov 9, 2008)

Interesting stuff. What I don't understand is why you have to pipe it up to a tank in the attic. Why can't you just take your main and run it into your heater like we do? I guess the pressure in the street isn't very high? By depending on gravity for the pressure you must find it hard to shower especially on the second floor. I'm guessing that you probably only have about 10 or 12 psi coming out of the lines?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Actually, if the tank was just above on the next story, you would only have about 3-4psi at the head when under flow.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Here are the infilltrators.
















cdpunneo said:


> That is awesome to know. Your pecusaltion is what we have down for our lateral systems moreless. Except here in Oklahoma, USA I know we refer to it as a perk test. The exiting line from the septic goes out to what we refer to as lateral lines. That consist of a large ditchline backfilled with gravel 1/2 way, the a lighweight PVC with holes drilled evenly (approximately 3- 1/2" holes per 5") as to allow the filtered sewage to seep back runs through the gravel then covered with dirt as to allow the landscape to hide the lateral lines (except in Oklahoma I know that is where the pretty green grass grows during the heat of summer). More recently we have been introduced to a filtration system, the brand I am familiar with is Infiltrator.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## IrishPlumber (Jul 16, 2009)

JoeTepleyP&H said:


> Interesting stuff. What I don't understand is why you have to pipe it up to a tank in the attic. Why can't you just take your main and run it into your heater like we do? I guess the pressure in the street isn't very high? By depending on gravity for the pressure you must find it hard to shower especially on the second floor. I'm guessing that you probably only have about 10 or 12 psi coming out of the lines?


Great story there trout lake. I take it you go fishing? I used to fly fish a lot and I bought a fly to my local lake, a beaded head Montana Nymph with a red belly. Most of the old guys would stick with more traditional type fly and the Montana I brought was un heard of. I was 17 at the time and I devastated the trout population in the lake and won many competitions with that fly, haven't been at the lake in some time but I believe its still widely in use. 

Joe I'll type up how our mains systems works.

We have a boosted mains water supplied by our local Co Councils. The pressure can be from 1 up to 4 bar (we use bar). Since Ireland is a small island we cant put too much demand on our mains supply as the pressure will suffer and not cope with the demand. Rather than taking multiple supply's of the mains we are only allowed to take two supply's. One supply to fill a tank in the attic and the other at the kitchen sink for drinking water. So by doing that there is less draw on the water main, the attic tank is our main source for water. 

From the tank you can then choose how you want to supply the house, be it gravity or more pressure. In the last 10 years a lot of people here traveled to other country's and stayed in nice hotels. A trend started to occur and people started to ask how can we have one of those "hotel showers" in our house as a gravity feed shower is poor compared to a pumped shower. 

To boost the showers we simply fit a shower booster pump. Its supplied by the attic tank and a dedicated outlet from the hot water cylinder. We try not to boost the whole house as we have no basements and these pumps are noisy to store in the house. You will find a lot of houses have a shower booster pump and gravity feeds everywhere else. If your lucky to have a garage or somewhere to store a nosy pump you can also choose to boost the entire house. The idea is the same, the tank feeds the pump. 

On large buildings with multiple occupants over 3 story's high we have a system called a break tank. Were not allowed to send individual mains so one large main feeds a large potable water tank (some times swimming pool size) and the fresh water from the tank is sent to a pump set, two pumps and a control panel. The pumps alternate between cycles and should one break down there is a back up. The pumped fresh water makes its way to each of the apartments etc and then a similar system to above takes place. If you don't have enough head height or no attic you install a combination tank and cylinder. Its just a tall cylinder split in two with cold water stored on top and a separate hot water cylinder on the bottom. As you can tell there is no head height for gravity so all the combi cylinder outlets go into a negative head pump. A negative head pump has a small vessel built in to give a little charge to move water and activate the flow switch. With out this little vessel there may be a case of a tap or shower being to heigh to move water to activate the flow switch.


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## IrishPlumber (Jul 16, 2009)

Air gap thanks for the pictures I understand the system but that's the strangest looking soil I've ever seen. Looks like it hasn't rained in years. Those trees look like there on the way out.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

IrishPlumber said:


> Air gap thanks for the pictures I understand the system but that's the strangest looking soil I've ever seen. Looks like it hasn't rained in years. Those trees look like there on the way out.


That's frost on the soil. It's not as bad as it looks. We have a high clay content. It was one of the coldest mornings we had last winter. The sun had'nt come over the hills yet.:thumbsup:


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## IrishPlumber (Jul 16, 2009)

airgap said:


> That's frost on the soil. It's not as bad as it looks. We have a high clay content. It was one of the coldest mornings we had last winter. The sun had'nt come over the hills yet.:thumbsup:


I don't know if potatoes could take to those conditions but sure looks good for motocrossing.


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## Christina (Jul 14, 2009)

*Yep... that is Infiltrators...*



airgap said:


> Here are the infilltrators.
> View attachment 2388
> 
> 
> View attachment 2389


When I moved to Salina, KS in 2001 I became familiar with Infiltrators. When I moved home to Oklahoma, I brought info with me, fliers, etc. I absolutelly loved the infiltrator vs. the perf/grav system!! Great option!!


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## Bulldog Plumbing (Nov 9, 2008)

Thank you for taking the time to explain all that. You seem to be very knowledgable in your field. I have to say it sounds like a rough job being a plumber in Ireland.


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## tooslow (Jul 17, 2009)

*Irish*

What back syphonage protections are ther? Any issues with water quality?

I truly believe the plumbing system (codes) we have in this country are the basis of its greatness.:thumbsup:


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## IrishPlumber (Jul 16, 2009)

tooslow said:


> What back syphonage protections are ther? Any issues with water quality?
> 
> I truly believe the plumbing system (codes) we have in this country are the basis of its greatness.:thumbsup:


No real issues with back siphonage, we have the aip gap. There is nowhere really for back siphonage to occur on the mains. All ball cocks etc must have an overflow fitted to prevent the stored water from making contact with any valve openings ect. 

Water quality is dependent on the area, the closer to the freshwater lake distribution plant you are the stronger you will have the water additives in the mains, fluoride etc. As the water main travels for miles it becomes weaker in additives designed to make it taste better or the additives designed reduce the amount of hardness. These houses located further from the fresh water lakes will suffer from the effects of hard water, hard water leaves deposits on heating elements (like you see in a kettle) and stains chrome fittings. Hard water can leave deposits you can see these deposits built up in toilet cisterns. 

If your are experiencing hard water difficulty's you can install a mains water filter. The water is filtered through salts which attract the hardness in the water. You replace these salts from time to time. 

In rural areas, country sides etc you may not have a state supplied water main so you drill a fresh water well. This water is far superior to a state supplied main but you must take a sample and have it examined before use. The sample will determine which type of salt to put in the filter to make the water safe for consumption.


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## rickmccarthy (Jul 20, 2009)

After the septic tank isnt there a D box or distribution box that would direct the effluent to the different lateral runs I used Infiltrators years ago in NM thats how we did it I was just wondering if that was still par for the course.


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