# Florida plumbers



## Optimus Primer

2007 florida code says no but there are a couple guys at the shop saying you can use like a 3x2 santee on it's back with the 2 inch vertical to catch a vent. I'm trying to prove them wrong. I'm saying you have to use a combo. Agree or disagree with me?


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## stillaround

706.3.....why would they argue....Florida has wet venting...why would code risk the issue...


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## Protech

You can't lay a santee on it's back in Florida.



house plumber said:


> 2007 florida code says no but there are a couple guys at the shop saying you can use like a 3x2 santee on it's back with the 2 inch vertical to catch a vent. I'm trying to prove them wrong. I'm saying you have to use a combo. Agree or disagree with me?


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## RealLivePlumber

Protech said:


> You can't lay a santee on it's back in Florida.


 That is a common misconception around here. 

A sanitary tee is a "short radius fitting". Short radius fittings are allowed in individual fixture drains, but not allowed in the building drain, or a drain serving more than one fixture. 

But, you would still have to argue till doomsday with an inspector if you did it. They don't know the code...........................


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## GREENPLUM

you cant put a tee on its back


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## nhmaster3015

Hate to break this to you fellas but under the IPC you can indeed lay a san tee on it's back provided the outlet is vertical ( or 45 degrees ) and that it is dry. ( operative word here is dry ) Problem is, you guys are all looking at the prohibited use of fittings in the DRAINAGE section of the code. The san tee is not drainage, it's vent. Unless specifically prohibited by ammendment you can most certainly do it. Some advice. Stop reading the code with an eye out for what you can't do and start reading it with an eye toward what you can do.

Table 706.3 is for drainage fittings.


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## mongo

Our local plumbing inspectors would turn it down instantly. And I'll agree with the post(s) that stipulate that inspectors do not know code. I would not do it based on the fact that if the vent were to be converted into a waste stack in the future (a lavatory, sink orwater cooler), the 3x2 san tee would then not be code compliant. But I'll also agree if the fitting is considered a vent fitting only, the code could be interpreted to allow for it.


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## nhmaster3015

If your local inspectors would turn it down then they need to be educated. As far as it eventually being turned into a waste stack, that argument don't fly either. Any plumber or inspector with 1/2 a brain would not allow it without changing it. It's not our responisbility to make sure that plumbing can accommodate any future change. Look at section 9 of the IPC. Read it thouroughly. You will not find any prohibited use of fittings. Only prohibited methods of installation. Again, everyone reads section 7 under drainage and automatically thinks that the chapter applies to vents. It doesn't. If it did then why bother to separate the chapters.


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## TheMaster

Whats the advantage of using a san tee on its back within 6" below the flood level rim of the fixture it serves?


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## stillaround

nhmaster3015 said:


> Hate to break this to you fellas but under the IPC you can indeed lay a san tee on it's back provided the outlet is vertical ( or 45 degrees ) and that it is dry. ( operative word here is dry ) Problem is, you guys are all looking at the prohibited use of fittings in the DRAINAGE section of the code. The san tee is not drainage, it's vent. Unless specifically prohibited by ammendment you can most certainly do it. Some advice. Stop reading the code with an eye out for what you can't do and start reading it with an eye toward what you can do.
> 
> Table 706.3 is for drainage fittings.


 Dont want to start a fracus today......his statement said a 3x2 on its back with the 2" vertical to catch a vent. This implies it is a drainage fitting, otherwise he'd say on a vent system......incorrect answer and analysis on your part.


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## nhmaster3015

stillaround said:


> Dont want to start a fracus today......his statement said a 3x2 on its back with the 2" vertical to catch a vent. This implies it is a drainage fitting, otherwise he'd say on a vent system......incorrect answer and analysis on your part.


Sorry, but no. The fitting in that case is being used as a vent fitting, it does not receive waste through the outlet.

TM, a shower or bath tub on a 2nd floor is where this is most commonly done in order to keep the trap from hanging below the dry wall.


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## TheMaster

nhmaster3015 said:


> Sorry, but no. The fitting in that case is being used as a vent fitting, it does not receive waste through the outlet.
> 
> TM, a shower or bath tub on a 2nd floor is where this is most commonly done in order to keep the trap from hanging below the dry wall.


Yes you are right...it is being used as a vent fitting and thats the part thats wrong IMO and bad plumbing. I consider the vent to start 6" above the flood level rim. If the drain cloggs it can back up into the vent....then you have waste water draining through a tee on its back....possibly clogging the vent...the vent maybe revented with no way to clear it.


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## nhmaster3015

But, using a wye and 1/8 bend or a combo fitting does not improve the condition any, if it's gonna plug, it's gonna plug. I can't see any other way to vent a tub or shower though. The beginning of the vent will always be below the flood level. If you take a look at older CI jobs done in the 40's and 50's you will commonly see san tees used for venting ( galvy ones also ) in the horizontal position.


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## TheMaster

nhmaster3015 said:


> But, using a wye and 1/8 bend or a combo fitting does not improve the condition any, if it's gonna plug, it's gonna plug. I can't see any other way to vent a tub or shower though. The beginning of the vent will always be below the flood level. If you take a look at older CI jobs done in the 40's and 50's you will commonly see san tees used for venting ( galvy ones also ) in the horizontal position.


So your trying to tell me that a long sweep fitting is not better than a short radius sant tee and it doesn't matter which one you use if its gonna clogg it will clogg?

My vote is to use long sweep type fittings when below or within 6" of the flood level rim. It may not be much better but its better. I also Vote to have a cleanout installed if its not washed by a fixture.(if it was washed it needs to be long sweep..its part of the drainage)

Now would i use a sant tee if pushed into a corner?....sure I would Cant expect to rebuild an existing home to keep from using a san tee for a vent laid on its back....but i would make provisions so it could be cleaned if needed.

Now make it quit raining........ I have work to do and actually feel like doing it


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## nhmaster3015

No argument on the clean out or use of a combo fitting but that ain't what the question was. How long has it been raining? I'm heading down to Orlando next Thursday, hope it cools down a bit. My sister lives in the Sarasota area. Says its been hotter than the gates of hell down there.


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## stillaround

Florida 2007 plumbing code does not differentiate vent fittings....table 706.3 is titled change in direction. I dont see a list for vent fittings...there is a definition stating vertical to 6" above for a vent but thats not an endorsement for a tee on its back. I plumbed in Chicago and of course they allowed tees on the back for vent and at 45 with 1/8 bend for drainage...but you gonna have to show me in fl 07 any vent fittings.....from what is written that I've seen in the code (show me something else and I'll concede) an inspector is right to turn down a tee on its back where liquid passes thru the run.


Ive been thru it on pan drain issues etc...if the language is not there or clear...they go by the clearest available language in the code. That would be 706.3.

*902.1 Vents.* The materials and methods utilized for the construction and installation of venting systems shall comply with the applicable provisions of Section 702.

Section 7 dictates the materials and methods..slam dunk case.


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## TheMaster

nhmaster3015 said:


> No argument on the clean out or use of a combo fitting but that ain't what the question was. How long has it been raining? I'm heading down to Orlando next Thursday, hope it cools down a bit. My sister lives in the Sarasota area. Says its been hotter than the gates of hell down there.


Are you going down to sarasota, FL to PSI mecca convention?:jester: Its from a tropical system that was in the Gulf. Its just been raining since this morning....but I have a hard bid in on the job I had scheduled and the rain will make it take twice as long.....so i cancelled it. Forcast says rain through monday i think....thunderstorms.

Have a safe trip...you should fit in well there....alot of northern people move to central and south fl....they still talk like yankees tho


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## artisancorp

In jeresy you can do this as long as it is serves an individual fixture and is a dry vent. as far as the post about lower than flood rim that part of the code is for horizontal vents and should be minimum 6" above the flood rim the 2" is a vertical dry vent


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## stillaround

Can someone show me in the Forida 2007 code any way whatsoever to infer a santee can be used on its back.......show me something anywhere in this code ....even some of the know it alls from out of state....educate me...just like all the inspectors here need educating...


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## Protech

We are talking Florida code here, not NJ.



RealLivePlumber said:


> That is a common misconception around here.
> 
> A sanitary tee is a "short radius fitting". Short radius fittings are allowed in individual fixture drains, but not allowed in the building drain, or a drain serving more than one fixture.
> 
> But, you would still have to argue till doomsday with an inspector if you did it. They don't know the code...........................


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## mongo

TheMaster said:


> I consider the vent to start 6" above the flood level rim.


I'm not sure that I follow your interpretation. The vent starts at the point that it connects to the drainage pipe/stack. 

A floor mounted water closet is vented at the point of connection of the soil pipe/stack and the vertical pipe that is used for the vent. In every case, it is below the flood level rim.


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## nhmaster3015

TM, My whole family lives down there. I lived in Punta Gorda for almost 15 years.

Stillaround. You are interpreting code the wrong way. The code tells you what you can not do. It's up to you to figure out what you can do. 

I was a member of the state code review board for 12 years and this subject came up more than once. We unanimously agreed that if used in a venting configuration, there is nothing in the code that prohibits its use.


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## TheMaster

mongo said:


> I'm not sure that I follow your interpretation. The vent starts at the point that it connects to the drainage pipe/stack.
> 
> A floor mounted water closet is vented at the point of connection of the soil pipe/stack and the vertical pipe that is used for the vent. In every case, it is below the flood level rim.


I'm not interpreting. I'm telling you where I consider the vent to start in the context of long or short fittings being installed. In other words......if it can possibly have waste water in it..even during a clogg....I'm considering it as part of the drain when I'm choosing what fittings to use. 

Just my preference,I dont recite code much.


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## mongo

Ok. got it now.


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## Optimus Primer

Well in my 20 year carreer in plumbing I have never been able to use a sanitary tee on it's back that is used in lieu of a combo ( wye and 45) unless it's under a 3 compartment sink. Here is that chart that says you cant. By the way NH, I'm doing a house down in Punta Gorda right now. 



*TABLE 706.3 FITTINGS FOR CHANGE IN DIRECTION* 

*TYPE OF FITTING
PATTERN **CHANGE IN DIRECTION **Horizontal to
vertical **Vertical to horizontal **Horizontal to horizontal *Sixteenth bendX X X Eighth bendX X X Sixth bendX X X Quarter bendX Xa Xa Short sweepX Xa,b Xa Long sweepX X X Sanitary teeXc --WyeX X X Combination wye
and eighth bendX X X


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## Optimus Primer

oh snap. The chart didnt turn out right. :furious: Anyway the 2 dashes and squares means NO.


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## Richard Hilliard

Using it as a dry vent is allowed as NH has stated.


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## nhmaster3015

house plumber said:


> Well in my 20 year carreer in plumbing I have never been able to use a sanitary tee on it's back that is used in lieu of a combo ( wye and 45) unless it's under a 3 compartment sink. Here is that chart that says you cant. By the way NH, I'm doing a house down in Punta Gorda right now.
> 
> 
> 
> *TABLE 706.3 FITTINGS FOR CHANGE IN DIRECTION*
> 
> *TYPE OF FITTING
> PATTERN **CHANGE IN DIRECTION **Horizontal to
> vertical **Vertical to horizontal **Horizontal to horizontal *Sixteenth bendX X X Eighth bendX X X Sixth bendX X X Quarter bendX Xa Xa Short sweepX Xa,b Xa Long sweepX X X Sanitary teeXc --WyeX X X Combination wye
> and eighth bendX X X


But 706.3 is drainage, not vent.

I get where all of you'se guys are coming from, for years I thought the same thing.


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## stillaround

nhmaster3015 said:


> TM, My whole family lives down there. I lived in Punta Gorda for almost 15 years.
> 
> Stillaround. You are interpreting code the wrong way. The code tells you what you can not do. It's up to you to figure out what you can do.
> 
> I was a member of the state code review board for 12 years and this subject came up more than once. We unanimously agreed that if used in a venting configuration, there is nothing in the code that prohibits its use.


 I'm glad you have had some experience with boards etc. but I have to totally disagree with that posture of code interpretation. A plumber should look 1st if there is something he cant do which is spelled out usually more clearly and defined. Florida code has changed for simplification and they dont want a tee on its back...which I agree with. The Florida code is not your code in Maine...it makes no sense to ignore the table 706.3 and then imagine what you can do......they dont want tees near drainage for good reason and are now allowing combos in the upright position for fixtures where san tees were always used. I think they took rodding issues and future issues into consideration when they simplified the table. Could it be written more clear...yes. Is it clear as it stands...absolutely. Does it matter what used to be or where it is allowed differently...not in the least. Any plumber advised to use a tee on its back in view of the code would be misled.


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## Optimus Primer

nhmaster3015 said:


> But 706.3 is drainage, not vent.
> 
> I get where all of you'se guys are coming from, for years I thought the same thing.


 
The 3 x2 I'm talking about is used on drainage. It catches a shower. He used a 3 inch trap up stream from the tee. Everyone knows you can use a tee on vents.


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## stillaround

Richard Hilliar said:


> Using it as a dry vent is allowed as NH has stated.


 If you are going to jump in here Richard get your code book out or go online and show me where.


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## mongo

*Here it is house plumber*


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## Optimus Primer

Since everyone likes my iso's I drew one of what I'm talking about


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## Richard Hilliard

stillaround said:


> If you are going to jump in here Richard get your code book out or go online and show me where.


 
Have you have plumbed a dry vent in Florida, I have.The plumbing inspector wanted the sweep of the tee to face the fixture.Where I am from the inspector wanted it opposite of the fixture towards the flow.


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## Optimus Primer

:confused1:^^^^ I must be tired. I couldnt understand that one.


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## ckoch407

I pulled out the trusty code book determined to prove that you cant put that tee in there but to my surprise this is what I came up with instead:

The iso as drawn by Houseplumber illustrates a Fixture Drain by definition, and the vent is a Vent Stack by definition. 

Section 7 is titled Sanitary Drainage. Table 706.3 illustrated above falls under section 706 which is titled Connections Between Drainage Piping and Fittings. 

Section 9 titled Vents has no such table of approved directions for fittings, but clearly defines the different types of vents, and where they start being a vent in the system. What I found interesting is that section 905 Vent connections and Grades, subsection 905.3 Vent connection to drainage system. Every dry vent connecting to a horizontal drain shall connect above the centerline of the horizontal drain pipe. 

A Stack Vent, which has horizontal drains discharging into it becomes a Vent Stack above the highest horizontal drain branch and would be a drain where it transitions from vertical to horizontal and a san tee would clearly be prohibited. But by 905.3 could possibly be allowed in this case.


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## mongo

Wrong way


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## mongo

Right way.


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## SlickRick

I'm not following your interpretation.


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## Optimus Primer

but what I drew has nothing draining into the 2 inch. The only thing getting washed will be th 3 inch on the santee.


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## nhmaster3015

ckoch407 said:


> I pulled out the trusty code book determined to prove that you cant put that tee in there but to my surprise this is what I came up with instead:
> 
> The iso as drawn by Houseplumber illustrates a Fixture Drain by definition, and the vent is a Vent Stack by definition.
> 
> Section 7 is titled Sanitary Drainage. Table 706.3 illustrated above falls under section 706 which is titled Connections Between Drainage Piping and Fittings.
> 
> Section 9 titled Vents has no such table of approved directions for fittings, but clearly defines the different types of vents, and where they start being a vent in the system. What I found interesting is that section 905 Vent connections and Grades, subsection 905.3 Vent connection to drainage system. Every dry vent connecting to a horizontal drain shall connect above the centerline of the horizontal drain pipe.
> 
> A Stack Vent, which has horizontal drains discharging into it becomes a Vent Stack above the highest horizontal drain branch would be a drain where it transitions from vertical to horizontal and a san tee would clearly be prohibited. But by 905.3 could possibly be allowed in this case.



That be what I've been trying to get across the whole time. Believe me guys, if your inspector ain't allowing it, it's because he has his head up his ass. All you guys that keep posting the chart from chapter 7 Drainage need to realize that that covers drainage, not venting.


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## nhmaster3015

stillaround said:


> I'm glad you have had some experience with boards etc. but I have to totally disagree with that posture of code interpretation. A plumber should look 1st if there is something he cant do which is spelled out usually more clearly and defined. Florida code has changed for simplification and they dont want a tee on its back...which I agree with. The Florida code is not your code in Maine...it makes no sense to ignore the table 706.3 and then imagine what you can do......they dont want tees near drainage for good reason and are now allowing combos in the upright position for fixtures where san tees were always used. I think they took rodding issues and future issues into consideration when they simplified the table. Could it be written more clear...yes. Is it clear as it stands...absolutely. Does it matter what used to be or where it is allowed differently...not in the least. Any plumber advised to use a tee on its back in view of the code would be misled.



Has Florida ammended the IPC and if so, then prove to me where it says that you can not use a san tee in the flat position for venting purposes. Stop bringing up section 706.3 it has zippo to do with venting . Why is that so confusing? Section 7 drainage. section 9 Venting. Better yet, call the state board and ask them for the interpretation.


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## ckoch407

house plumber said:


> but what I drew has nothing draining into the 2 inch. The only thing getting washed will be th 3 inch on the santee.


Exactly. According to 905.3 the 2" is considered a "vent" from the centerline of the horizontal drain upwards. The sanitary tee in this drawing does not make a "change in direction of the drain" and therefore does not fall within the scope of 706.3.


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## stillaround

You got a call.
What,
Rough-in failed,
Why,
I dont know call them
Hello can I speak to the inspector,
He wont be in till 3:30
Crap, that job's an hour away
Hello..whats the problem.
Tee on its back in the drain line...
Its a vent above the centerpoint..everyone who knows anything knows that...its a dry vent ( why the heck I would put a dry vent in escapes me)
Code says no? thats the drainage section...
What?
You want it changed...you ignorant inspector..you need educating
Im taking this to a higher power.
You still wont pass it ???
You want to hear from my lawyer????

Hey kid, go out and change that tee and put in a combo and put a test back on ...why did you use a tee anyway......oh you read it in plumbingzone...some guy from Maine???that explains it.


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## nhmaster3015

Look, I didn't tell you to go arguing with inspectors, in fact, if you go back and read through my first or 2nd reply I specifically said that arguing it is probably not worth the cost of the fitting, but that ain't what the thread was about was it? All I'm saying is that there is nothing in the venting part of the code that prohibits it, and that a whole lot of plumbers and inspectors have been misinterpreting it for years. 

Why dry vent? Apparently you don't do a lot of really large bathrooms where the shower or tub is too far away from the lav to wet vent legally.

How long you been plumbing anyway :whistling2:

And one last thing. If you are not comfortable doing it then don't. Nobodys bending yiour arm here.


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## TheMaster

nhmaster3015 said:


> Look, I didn't tell you to go arguing with inspectors, in fact, if you go back and read through my first or 2nd reply I specifically said that arguing it is probably not worth the cost of the fitting, but that ain't what the thread was about was it? All I'm saying is that there is nothing in the venting part of the code that prohibits it, and that a whole lot of plumbers and inspectors have been misinterpreting it for years.
> 
> Why dry vent? Apparently you don't do a lot of really large bathrooms where the shower or tub is too far away from the lav to wet vent legally.
> 
> How long you been plumbing anyway :whistling2:
> 
> And one last thing. If you are not comfortable doing it then don't. Nobodys bending yiour arm here.


All our upstairs homes are framed with 2x12's for the floor and there is room for what I consider the proper fittings.....a long sweep type fitting. My way is better plumbing.....no doubt about that. Says so in the code book I wrote and follow. 

If you just want to plumb to the minimum standards then use the code. Thats my motto


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## Protech

Even if it is legal to lay a santee on it's back, it's a bad idea. You pretty much are screwing the service plumber if he needs to get onto that line from that vent. I can remember being on many a roof cursing the plumber that built the place because I couldn't get my cable down the vent stack. Why? San-tee on it's back :furious:


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## nhmaster3015

If you gots 2 x 12's then you should have no problems, TGI's are nice also. They still frame a lot of capes up here with 2 x 10's though. Very tight for a shower drain.


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## TheMaster

Protech said:


> Even if it is legal to lay a santee on it's back, it's a bad idea. You pretty much are screwing the service plumber if he needs to get onto that line from that vent. I can remember being on many a roof cursing the plumber that built the place because I couldn't get my cable down the vent stack. Why? San-tee on it's back :furious:


If a fixture is clogged past the fixture arm.....I go on the roof 99% of the time. Santee on its back can be a problem.


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## nhmaster3015

It's why you get paid the BIG BUCKS :thumbup:

Climbing on the roof will get you nowhere up here. Most plumbers tie all the vents to a single stack in the attic. 

Here's the big question though. If there was a blockage at the outlet of san tee, how would you ever know?


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## stillaround

nhmaster3015 said:


> Look, I didn't tell you to go arguing with inspectors, in fact, if you go back and read through my first or 2nd reply I specifically said that arguing it is probably not worth the cost of the fitting, but that ain't what the thread was about was it? All I'm saying is that there is nothing in the venting part of the code that prohibits it, and that a whole lot of plumbers and inspectors have been misinterpreting it for years.
> 
> *Why dry vent? Apparently you don't do a lot of really large bathrooms where the shower or tub is too far away from the lav to wet vent legally.*
> 
> *How long you been plumbing anyway :whistling2:*
> 
> And one last thing. If you are not comfortable doing it then don't. Nobodys bending yiour arm here.


33 years..just long enough to be able to argue with an inspector but smart enough to avoid it. Gonna be hard to argue a tee underground is a vent fitting with the uneducated out here yall:whistling2:.

Houses in Florida for 20 years solid...always look at a bath quick and see how to minimize vents...usually you can offset the toilet and bring it down closer to center and wet vent things,,,can look at it and lay it out in 20 seconds..or less...in rare instances you might need a dry vent...but hardly ever.......how long you been doing houses in Florida????:whistling2:..also developed length for a wet vent is substantially longer to accomodate larger spaces.


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## stillaround

ckoch407 said:


> Exactly. According to 905.3 the 2" is considered a "vent" from the centerline of the horizontal drain upwards. The sanitary tee in this drawing does not make a "change in direction of the drain" and therefore does not fall within the scope of 706.3.


 
You want to split some hairs......

*913.3 Vent installation below the fixture flood level rim.* The vent located below the flood level rim of the fixture being vented shall be installed as required for drainage piping in accordance with Chapter 7, except for sizing. The vent shall be sized in accordance with Section 916.2. The lowest point of the island fixture vent shall connect full size to the drainage system. The connection shall be to a vertical drain pipe or to the top half of a horizontal drain pipe. Cleanouts shall be provided in the island fixture vent to permit rodding of all vent piping located below the flood level rim of the fixtures. Rodding in both directions shall be permitted through a cleanout. 


Where is the flood level rim of the shower with relation to the tee??? Huh??????


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## ckoch407

stillaround said:


> You want to split some hairs......
> 
> *913.3 Vent installation below the fixture flood level rim.* The vent located below the flood level rim of the fixture being vented shall be installed as required for drainage piping in accordance with Chapter 7, except for sizing. The vent shall be sized in accordance with Section 916.2. The lowest point of the island fixture vent shall connect full size to the drainage system. The connection shall be to a vertical drain pipe or to the top half of a horizontal drain pipe. Cleanouts shall be provided in the island fixture vent to permit rodding of all vent piping located below the flood level rim of the fixtures. Rodding in both directions shall be permitted through a cleanout.
> 
> 
> Where is the flood level rim of the shower with relation to the tee??? Huh??????


Forgive my ignorance. I did not realize the diagram which is the subject of the question was an Island Vent as defined by 913, and not a Dry Vent as described in 906.


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## Ron

house plumber said:


> Since everyone likes my iso's I drew one of what I'm talking about
> 
> 
> View attachment 6966



I like it. :thumbsup:

Both are allowed in the State of Oregon


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## ckoch407

stillaround said:


> You want to split some hairs......
> 
> *913.3 Vent installation below the fixture flood level rim.* The vent located below the flood level rim of the fixture being vented shall be installed as required for drainage piping in accordance with Chapter 7, except for sizing. The vent shall be sized in accordance with Section 916.2. The lowest point of the island fixture vent shall connect full size to the drainage system. The connection shall be to a vertical drain pipe or to the top half of a horizontal drain pipe. Cleanouts shall be provided in the island fixture vent to permit rodding of all vent piping located below the flood level rim of the fixtures. Rodding in both directions shall be permitted through a cleanout.
> 
> 
> Where is the flood level rim of the shower with relation to the tee??? Huh??????



You dont have to answer this out loud if you have ever done it....

On an island kitchen where an AAV is used under the sink. Have you ever put a 1-1/2" san tee on its back on the horizontal Fixture Drain right after the P Trap to install the AAV? Ever wonder why they allow that?


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## nhmaster3015

*913.3 Vent installation below the fixture flood level rim.​*​​​​The
vent located below the flood level rim of the fixture being vented
shall be installed as required for drainage piping in accordance
with Chapter 7, except for sizing. The vent shall be sized in accordance
with Section 916.2. The lowest point of the* island fixture*
*vent* shall connect full size to the drainage system. The connection
shall be to a vertical drain pipe or to the top half of a
horizontal drain pipe. Cleanouts shall be provided in the island
fixture vent to permit rodding of all vent piping located below
the flood level rim of the fixtures. Rodding in both directions​
shall be permitted through a cleanout.

That entire paragraph refers to *Island vented sinks*. and has nothing to do with the topic. You are trying way to hard to make the code say things it does not say and to apply things that do not need to be applied. You will save yourself a lot of headaches, time and money if you look at the code with what you can do in mind. Read the section of waste stack venting and open your eyes. As you read it, think of what you can do and how you can apply it to save time and money.

I


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## TheMaster

stillaround said:


> You want to split some hairs......
> 
> *913.3 Vent installation below the fixture flood level rim.* The vent located below the flood level rim of the fixture being vented shall be installed as required for drainage piping in accordance with Chapter 7, except for sizing. The vent shall be sized in accordance with Section 916.2. The lowest point of the island fixture vent shall connect full size to the drainage system. The connection shall be to a vertical drain pipe or to the top half of a horizontal drain pipe. Cleanouts shall be provided in the island fixture vent to permit rodding of all vent piping located below the flood level rim of the fixtures. Rodding in both directions shall be permitted through a cleanout.
> 
> 
> Where is the flood level rim of the shower with relation to the tee??? Huh??????


Regardless of what the code says.......its better plumbing not to lay tee's on there backs.:thumbsup: Its real simple.


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## Bayside500

hell, back when i started plumbing, we couldn't even do dry vents, we had to turn up with a 1/4 bend or sweep and put a san tee to catch something to "wash the base" the vent.

then they let us put combos on their back, but now my boss is saying you can put san tees on their back LOL

funny how it all works either way huh ?


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## nhmaster3015

Let's end this nonsense right here.

707.3(8) Use of fittings - Left side, part way down.

And that's for you'se guys that insist on using the drainage section for vent.

TM, please explain why in the same configuration a combo or wye + 1/8 would be any less likely to plug up than a san tee?


----------



## TheMaster

nhmaster3015 said:


> Let's end this nonsense right here.
> 
> 707.3(8) Use of fittings - Left side, part way down.
> 
> And that's for you'se guys that insist on using the drainage section for vent.
> 
> TM, please explain why in the same configuration a combo or wye + 1/8 would be any less likely to plug up than a san tee?


If the fitting is installed so that waste water can back up into it .....a long sweep fitting is desired because it is long sweep......long sweeps work better for drains......and in places that waste water can back into possibly.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Tell you what. I think I probably agree but, school starts in a couple of weeks and I need a demonstration excersise so I'll have the kids mock up each way and we'll see if we can plug either of them up. BTW, no matter how it's piped a clean out on the base of the stack is always code


----------



## Ron

TheMaster said:


> If the fitting is installed so that waste water can back up into it .....a long sweep fitting is desired because it is long sweep......long sweeps work better for drains......and in places that waste water can back into possibly.


If and when a line backs up it will always back up into the venting fitting.


----------



## SlickRick

nhmaster3015 said:


> Tell you what. I think I probably agree but, school starts in a couple of weeks and I need a demonstration excersise so I'll have the kids mock up each way and we'll see if we can plug either of them up. BTW, no matter how it's piped a clean out on the base of the stack is always code


Would you quote the code requirement for a c/o at the base of every stack? I don't have a code book handy.


----------



## Optimus Primer

slickrick said:


> Would you quote the code requirement for a c/o at the base of every stack? I don't have a code book handy.


 
708.3.4 Base of stack. A cleanout shall be provided at the base of each waste or soil stack


----------



## SlickRick

house plumber said:


> 708.3.4 Base of stack. A cleanout shall be provided at the base of each waste or soil stack


Are you guys installing c/o on all stacks in your area?


----------



## Optimus Primer

yes and on any soil stack on the ground floor that catches any second floor plumbing. Above the santee on a washer stack.


----------



## nhmaster3015

708.3.0 for drainage stacks and here is where the code recognizes that a proper vent stack does not require a clean out because other than clean outs being necessary for island vented fixtures, there is no base of stack requirement for vent stacks. Ok, so that sounds confusing doesn't it? Yet, how many homes have you been in that were piped under the UPC or the old Boca code that have a full sized vent stack off the lowest lateral main? and none of them ever had clean outs at the base ( and most were piped with a san tee also) However, remember this, unless the vent is washed by a fixture above there will be the possibiluity of the vent that is below the flood level rim of plugging up, so a clean out would be advisable.

let's go a bit further here while I'm at it. Is this good plumbing practice? Well from a health and safety aspect, It probably makes little difference. From a maintenance point of view it very well may. Ever wonder why so many drum traps were installed under tubs and showers? It's because way back then they realized that there could be an issue with a dry vent that takes off below the flood level of the fixture. Somewhere along the line they decided that it was better plumbing practice to go with a vented P trap than mess with drum traps. Now ask yourself how often have you had to deal with a plugged vent in that same configuration. I honestly can't ever recall one single time in 36 years.

BTW, this is one of the best and most interesting threads that has been posted in a long time. It's very interesting to see how different plumbers interpret the code and how geography also effect the application and interpretation.


----------



## Optimus Primer

depending on the house I do, I will install a c.o. on a vent stack. But thats just me. because sometimes that one vent stack will be able to clean the trunk line under the slab.


----------



## SlickRick

A c/o at the base of a stack would be my last choice as far as maint. goes. A c/o at base of a stack needs to have a drain valve installed, or it is a disaster waiting to happen for an inexperienced plumber. It's a noble idea, just not practical.


----------



## Optimus Primer

While I see your point but if you consider the builders we work for, they want all vents ran to the rear of the house so they can't be seen from the street. Not to mention they want the least amount of vents poking through the roof. So those c/o's at the base maybe your only hope. Unless you wanted to pull water closets I guess.


----------



## SlickRick

house plumber said:


> While I see your point but if you consider the builders we work for, they want all vents ran to the rear of the house so they can't be seen from the street. Not to mention they want the least amount of vents poking through the roof. So those c/o's at the base maybe your only hope. Unless you wanted to pull water closets I guess.


Been there, done that. If a house makes it through warranty, It's all good.


----------



## Protech

Yeah, but if it is a combo, you can actually get a 7/8" cable down that vent to clean it.

It starts getting dicey when it's a santee on it's back, especially if it's an iron tee........

Remember the old construction saying: Just because it's code doesn’t make it right!



Ron said:


> If and when a line backs up it will always back up into the venting fitting.


----------



## ckoch407

I actually learned something from this thread. I was looking for something to prove that you cannot lay a san tee on its back and instead learned that you can in this situation. A lot of people dont want to hear that but it is clearly and unambiguously printed in black and white in my code book.

Now, just for the record, in my little 11 years plumbing and over 1,000 houses plumbed from start to finish while employed by others in construction, the only time I have ever put a san tee on its back is in the kitchen Fixture Drain for the AAV which I now know is legal, or on a 3 comp sink indirect line which I know is illegal but physically impossible to do it with combos in most cases. I would do it in the illustrated case if necessary for space as a last resort. 

I also understand the argument that it is hard to get a 7/8 cable through a san tee. But that is the only adverse side effect that I can imagine happening. Most tight spaced stuff I have seen like that is re-vented into another vent stack anyway. Not to mention all the builders that want only one 1-1/2" stack in the back of the house for aesthetic purposes now that it is legal to do that. Lets see you get a cable near a drain through that vent system. I have done many like that by order of the builder/owner that will throw an unknowing service guy for a loop when the time comes. Overall, those early years in construction gave me a lot of useful insight into systems that lots of service only plumbers will never be able to wrap their head around. Can you picture a rooter guy trying to explain to the H/O why the cable isnt going anywhere in that particular system?


----------



## Tommy plumber

ckoch407 said:


> You dont have to answer this out loud if you have ever done it....
> 
> On an island kitchen where an AAV is used under the sink. Have you ever put a 1-1/2" san tee on its back on the horizontal Fixture Drain right after the P Trap to install the AAV? Ever wonder why they allow that?


 
Good point. I can remember doing alot of new const. in the 1990's when contractors were all giddy about AAV (we call them Studor vents here) cuz they thought we'd pipe-out a house faster by not having penetrations through the roof. So under many kit. sinks we'd install an 1 1/2" pvc santee on its back after p-trap w/ studor vent rising up from branch of santee on a little stack. When I think about it, isn't that crown venting? It is if it's within 2 pipe diameters of trap weir. Yet these AAV's under sinks always passed inspection. (dumb inspectors).


----------



## nhmaster3015

Protech said:


> Yeah, but if it is a combo, you can actually get a 7/8" cable down that vent to clean it.
> 
> It starts getting dicey when it's a santee on it's back, especially if it's an iron tee........
> 
> Remember the old construction saying: Just because it's code doesn’t make it right!


I'll bet the 90% of the vents in most construction are inaccessable without cutting the pipe somwhere. Most vents are all tied together in the attic space and connected to a single roof penetration. Around here, running your cable down the vent stack will get you pretty much nowhere.


----------



## TheMaster

nhmaster3015 said:


> I'll bet the 90% of the vents in most construction are inaccessable without cutting the pipe somwhere. Most vents are all tied together in the attic space and connected to a single roof penetration. Around here, running your cable down the vent stack will get you pretty much nowhere.


Especially when some guy used a san. tee on its back and the cable wont make the turn. Gets ya nowhere....but if they would have used a long sweep fitting it would be fine. My point is made.


----------



## nhmaster3015

TheMaster said:


> Especially when some guy used a san. tee on its back and the cable wont make the turn. Gets ya nowhere....but if they would have used a long sweep fitting it would be fine. My point is made.


I Don't see it. If that san tee is 40' away and there are 3 or more other tee's in that vent line, how in hell are you every gonna be sure where your cable is, combo or not. Or..... do you southern guys always run multiple vertical vents through the roof?


----------



## TheMaster

nhmaster3015 said:


> I Don't see it. If that san tee is 40' away and there are 3 or more other tee's in that vent line, how in hell are you every gonna be sure where your cable is, combo or not. Or..... do you southern guys always run multiple vertical vents through the roof?


I run each vent out the roof or make sure they have proper cleanouts in the attic space that are accessible. I dont revent into a wall...always go to the attic space and then connect them together.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Protech said:


> Yeah, but if it is a combo, you can actually get a 7/8" cable down that vent to clean it.
> 
> It starts getting dicey when it's a santee on it's back, especially if it's an iron tee........
> 
> Remember the old construction saying: Just because it's code doesn’t make it right!



Either way, either fitting, 99% of the time it ain't gonna happen unless someone was nice enough to put a clean out in the waste line. You are not going to be able to access the vent to snake it anyway.

Think about this guys. You have a house with a kitchen, laundry, a couple of baths all spread out. You know damn well the plumber (you) tied all the 1 1/2" vents and the 2" vents together in the attic space and penetrated the roof once or maybe twice ( at the back of the house please cause we dont want them stacks showing) So you explain to me, how running any size cable down that vent stack from the roof, is going to get to the particular vent you are trying to clear? Then, just for the fun of it, explain just how many vents you have had to snake over the years because the VENT was blocked ( In 36 years I can recall exactly.... none) and if so, how did you know it was blocked.?
I just don't see that the snaking argument holds water and neither did the guys that wrote the code in the first place.


----------



## Don The Plumber

TheMaster said:


> Especially when some guy used a san. tee on its back and the cable wont make the turn. Gets ya nowhere....but if they would have used a long sweep fitting it would be fine. My point is made.


 I think his point was, that the cable will never even get to the sanitary tee that is on its back.
In my experience, houses built in the 70's or before, you will probobly have good luck running a cable through a vent pipe from the roof. After that, forget it. Too many revents, & vents tied together. No way in heck, can you tell where the cable is going.
We put tee's on there back all the time for AAV"s, because it looks cleaner in my opinion, especially under a sink cabinet, & takes up less room. But personally I have never put a tee on its back, for any other situation, other than AAV. Just saying.


----------



## nhmaster3015

TheMaster said:


> I run each vent out the roof or make sure they have proper cleanouts in the attic space that are accessible. I dont revent into a wall...always go to the attic space and then connect them together.


Wow, you must be the most expensive plumber in town. 
Now ask yourself why you have been doing it that way. 

Seems like good plumbing practice doesn't it? I suppose that on some level it may be but for the most part your extra fittings and time have not really accomplished much because 99% of the time, neither you nor anyone else will ever access those cleanouts provided the drainage was properly installed and graded. The reason that you don't see a section on required clean outs in chapter 9 (vents & venting) is because properly installed, vents should never need cleaning. Furthermore, it is nearly impossible to tell if a vent is plugged. A whole lot of apprentices, homeowners and wanna be plumbers think that you need a vent for the fixture to properly drain. That's absolute hogwash. Fixtures don't need vents at all to drain. The gravity and head pressure are all the fixture requires. I can ( and have ) fabricate an entire drainage system with not a single vent anywhere and guess what? Drains just fine. Slow drains are *always* the result of either a partially plugged drain or in improperly pitched drain ( or wrong size ) never a plugged vent.

Now let's see how many dissenting opinions we get on that :thumbsup:


----------



## nhmaster3015

Don The Plumber said:


> I think his point was, that the cable will never even get to the sanitary tee that is on its back.
> In my experience, houses built in the 70's or before, you will probobly have good luck running a cable through a vent pipe from the roof. After that, forget it. Too many revents, & vents tied together. No way in heck, can you tell where the cable is going.
> We put tee's on there back all the time for AAV"s, because it looks cleaner in my opinion, especially under a sink cabinet, & takes up less room. But personally I have never put a tee on its back, for any other situation, other than AAV. Just saying.


But you will think about it now, won't you? :laughing:

Think about all the money you can save. San tee's are a whole lot cheaper than combo's. Over the years, it could add up to a new bass boat


----------



## TheMaster

nhmaster3015 said:


> Wow, you must be the most expensive plumber in town.
> Now ask yourself why you have been doing it that way.
> 
> Seems like good plumbing practice doesn't it? I suppose that on some level it may be but for the most part your extra fittings and time have not really accomplished much because 99% of the time, neither you nor anyone else will ever access those cleanouts provided the drainage was properly installed and graded. The reason that you don't see a section on required clean outs in chapter 9 (vents & venting) is because properly installed, vents should never need cleaning. Furthermore, it is nearly impossible to tell if a vent is plugged. A whole lot of apprentices, homeowners and wanna be plumbers think that you need a vent for the fixture to properly drain. That's absolute hogwash. Fixtures don't need vents at all to drain. The gravity and head pressure are all the fixture requires. I can ( and have ) fabricate an entire drainage system with not a single vent anywhere and guess what? Drains just fine. Slow drains are *always* the result of either a partially plugged drain or in improperly pitched drain ( or wrong size ) never a plugged vent.
> 
> Now let's see how many dissenting opinions we get on that :thumbsup:


I'll give you my opinion for sure:thumbsup:. Thats why I dont do new residential construction that much.....I do it correctly and that is expensive.

I have years of experience in peoples homes repairing what the new construction guy screwed up and with what the inspectors and the code let the new construction get away with.

Have you ever had a bathtub when drained would siphon the trap? I have because the vent was closed off with cast iron scale. I had to cut a wall,cut the pipe and clean it out. I installed a cleanout and patched the wall back in the closet.

Have you ever went and cleaned a sewer that had been backed up for a couple weeks and the owners kept using it and letting it drain down....then use it more....completely packing the line with toilet aper and sludge that backs up into everything below the lowest fixture? I have and it can clogg any vent. 

Cleanouts properly located and long sweep fittings below the flood level rim are a good idea. Codebook,no codebook...hell or high water its a good thing. For a few $ and a few minutes of time can save a future owner and a plumber alot of trouble.:thumbsup:


----------



## Optimus Primer

nhmaster3015 said:


> But you will think about it now, won't you? :laughing:
> 
> Think about all the money you can save. San tee's are a whole lot cheaper than combo's. Over the years, it could add up to a *new bass boat*


 
in Florida you dont buy bass boats.


----------



## TheMaster

nhmaster3015 said:


> But you will think about it now, won't you? :laughing:
> 
> Think about all the money you can save. San tee's are a whole lot cheaper than combo's. Over the years, it could add up to a new bass boat


 
And pex is cheaper than copper.........how many boats would that buy?:whistling2:


----------



## Ron

I want a bass boat. House Plumber will you buy me a bass boat. :laughing:


----------



## Optimus Primer

Ron said:


> I want a bass boat. House Plumber will you buy me a bass boat. :laughing:


depends how much i get paid wishing people happy birthday. if the price is right, bass boats for everyone.:laughing:


----------



## nhmaster3015

If you don't buy them does that mean that you steal them :laughing:


----------



## Ron

:boat: I'll need a fishing pole to go along with my new boat. :laughing:


----------



## nhmaster3015

TheMaster said:


> I'll give you my opinion for sure:thumbsup:. Thats why I dont do new residential construction that much.....I do it correctly and that is expensive.
> 
> I have years of experience in peoples homes repairing what the new construction guy screwed up and with what the inspectors and the code let the new construction get away with.
> 
> Have you ever had a bathtub when drained would siphon the trap? I have because the vent was closed off with cast iron scale. I had to cut a wall,cut the pipe and clean it out. I installed a cleanout and patched the wall back in the closet.
> 
> *Would a comb fitting have made a difference?*
> 
> Have you ever went and cleaned a sewer that had been backed up for a couple weeks and the owners kept using it and letting it drain down....then use it more....completely packing the line with toilet aper and sludge that backs up into everything below the lowest fixture? I have and it can clogg any vent.
> 
> *Again, would combo fittings have made a difference?*
> 
> Cleanouts properly located and long sweep fittings below the flood level rim are a good idea. Codebook,no codebook...hell or high water its a good thing. For a few $ and a few minutes of time can save a future owner and a plumber alot of trouble.:thumbsup:


*
Think hard here now. Why do you want to save anyone "trouble" and, how far and how much are you willing to invest to do so?*


----------



## Optimus Primer

Ron said:


> :boat: I'll need a fishing pole to go along with my new boat. :laughing:


 
My daughter has a brand new unopened cinderella fishing pole I bought her about 12 years ago. You can have that one. Hey, it even comes with tackle.:laughing:


----------



## Ron

house plumber said:


> My daughter has a brand new unopened cinderella fishing pole I bought her about 12 years ago. You can have that one. Hey, it even comes with tackle.:laughing:


Is is pink? I don't want no dam blue one. :laughing:


----------



## Optimus Primer

nhmaster3015 said:


> If you don't buy them does that mean that you steal them :laughing:


of course we do. do you know how much plumbers make in florida? we cant afford to buy them.


----------



## Optimus Primer

Ron said:


> Is is pink? I don't want no dam blue one. :laughing:


 
it is pink. your in luck.


----------



## SlickRick

nhmaster3015 said:


> Either way, either fitting, 99% of the time it ain't gonna happen unless someone was nice enough to put a clean out in the waste line. You are not going to be able to access the vent to snake it anyway.
> 
> Think about this guys. You have a house with a kitchen, laundry, a couple of baths all spread out. You know damn well the plumber (you) tied all the 1 1/2" vents and the 2" vents together in the attic space and penetrated the roof once or maybe twice ( at the back of the house please cause we dont want them stacks showing) So you explain to me, how running any size cable down that vent stack from the roof, is going to get to the particular vent you are trying to clear? Then, just for the fun of it, explain just how many vents you have had to snake over the years because the VENT was blocked ( In 36 years I can recall exactly.... none) and if so, how did you know it was blocked.? I just don't see that the snaking argument holds water and neither did the guy's that wrote the code in the first place.


There is not enough thought given to future maint. when codes are written. It is just a fact that a san. tee laying on it's back can be very hard to negotiate, and that a combo. directs the cable downstream. I have been at this 36 yrs. myself and have encountered this problem many times. I have also encountered many low flat vents that have been blocked due to repeated stoppages, and with CI, rust falling down the vent and eventually blocking the vent totally. Re-venting to a point that there is not adequate access to the drainage system in the name of aesthetics is doing the homeowner (or business) an injustice. Builders assoc's have a large influence with code bodies in most cases. If systems were designed under the strict influence of plumbers, the system would be designed for function and serviceability, not what you see when looking at the front of the house. I have dealt with code bodies, and do not view them as all knowing plumbing gods. Too many other influences involved in the process.


----------



## nhmaster3015

TheMaster said:


> I'll give you my opinion for sure:thumbsup:. Thats why I dont do new residential construction that much.....I do it correctly and that is expensive.
> 
> I have years of experience in peoples homes repairing what the new construction guy screwed up and with what the inspectors and the code let the new construction get away with.
> 
> Have you ever had a bathtub when drained would siphon the trap? I have because the vent was closed off with cast iron scale. I had to cut a wall,cut the pipe and clean it out. I installed a cleanout and patched the wall back in the closet.
> 
> Have you ever went and cleaned a sewer that had been backed up for a couple weeks and the owners kept using it and letting it drain down....then use it more....completely packing the line with toilet aper and sludge that backs up into everything below the lowest fixture? I have and it can clogg any vent.
> 
> Cleanouts properly located and long sweep fittings below the flood level rim are a good idea. Codebook,no codebook...hell or high water its a good thing. For a few $ and a few minutes of time can save a future owner and a plumber alot of trouble.:thumbsup:





slickrick said:


> There is not enough thought given to future maint. when codes are written. It is just a fact that a san. tee laying on it's back can be very hard to negotiate, and that a combo. directs the cable downstream. I have been at this 36 yrs. myself and have encountered this problem many times. I have also encountered many low flat vents that have been blocked due to repeated stoppages, and with CI, rust falling down the vent and eventually blocking the vent totally. Re-venting to a point that there is not adequate access to the drainage system in the name of aesthetics is doing the homeowner (or business) an injustice. Builders assoc's have a large influence with code bodies in most cases. If systems were designed under the strict influence of plumbers, the system would be designed for function and serviceability, not what you see when looking at the front of the house. I have dealt with code bodies, and do not view them as all knowing plumbing gods. Too many other influences involved in the process.


Hey, I'm just throwing this stuff out to get you guys thinking. That said, if we are all so interested in going the extra mile and spending a few extra dollars then why in hell is anybody using PEX :laughing:


----------



## TheMaster

nhmaster3015 said:


> Hey, I'm just throwing this stuff out to get you guys thinking. That said, if we are all so interested in going the extra mile and spending a few extra dollars then why in hell is anybody using PEX :laughing:


I wouldn't advise the use of pex in new construction in my area. I have copper in my home and evety other new home I have installed.


----------



## SlickRick

nhmaster3015 said:


> Hey, I'm just throwing this stuff out to get you guys thinking. That said, if we are all so interested in going the extra mile and spending a few extra dollars then why in hell is anybody using PEX :laughing:


30 yr. old copper systems are failing at staggering rate in my area.


----------



## nhmaster3015

What do you think that rate is? probably around 1/2 of 1% :thumbsup:


----------



## Optimus Primer

slickrick said:


> 30 yr. old copper systems are failing at staggering rate in my area.


my house was built in 79 and there has onle been 1 pinhole since may 90. And i have some of those most aggresive water. A new neighborhood we did we had to use cpvc because of our water.


----------



## stillaround

Well, Im gonna start calling tomorrow...already called one inspector and didnt get a return. Im gonna sample the building depts and post results on the tee on the back...and I'll try and ask the question fairly.
The context of the island sink in my present thinking doesnt rule out the principle of flood rim, reading the language at face value...but we'll find out....
Also I know they lay them on the back for AAV's but thats not a threat to anything and can use space better......nevertheless.....I'm taking this up a level...and if Im wrong so be it...I expect to get some interesting feedback.


----------



## SlickRick

nhmaster3015 said:


> What do you think that rate is? probably around 1/2 of 1% :thumbsup:


Not in my area. Prolly 25% of copper installed in the 70's-80's have thinned to a point where repairs are not going to be an option in 5 or so yrs.


----------



## nhmaster3015

But with pex you dont get pin holes. You get rat holes and fittings that blow off or snap in half and sometimes an entire length just decides to unzip itself just for the fun of it. :laughing:


----------



## stillaround

Also, why do you think Florida now allows a combo horizontal to vertical down for a lavatory at the risk of creating a so called s trap or weir issue.. Why change if rodding wasnt a consideration. Seems to me last continuing ed something about this was said..may be wrong....


----------



## nhmaster3015

Has nothing to do with rodding. Take a look at a combo and then at a wye and 1/8 bend. The combo fitting does not put the trap weir above the outlet while the wye and 1/8 bend does. Therefore a combo is ok to use.


----------



## SlickRick

I will quote a job both ways and let the cust. decide. The guy's that wrote the codes must have thought that PEX is great stuff to allow it. Right?


----------



## Ron

How many on here use a figure 5 fitting in the wall when you have side by side bath sinks, or does everyone on here come up with 2 separate waste for each lav.

These fitting though approved for use, are difficult to clean out if the clog is below the fitting,


----------



## SlickRick

nhmaster3015 said:


> Has nothing to do with rodding. Take a look at a combo and then at a wye and 1/8 bend. The combo fitting does not put the trap weir above the outlet while the wye and 1/8 bend does. Therefore a combo is ok to use.


Is this something new? A combo. in the vert. posistion has never been allowed to pick up a trap arm. At least anywhere I have been.


----------



## stillaround

Outside 2x4 wall separate


----------



## stillaround

slickrick said:


> Is this something new? A combo. in the vert. posistion has never been allowed to pick up a trap arm. At least anywhere I have been.


 New in Fl....Protech had some pics somewhere......Im using the online code book and I fear it might be abridged.


----------



## Optimus Primer

Ron said:


> How many on here use a figure 5 fitting in the wall when you have side by side bath sinks, or does everyone on here come up with 2 separate waste for each lav.
> 
> These fitting though approved for use, are difficult to clean out if the clog is below the fitting,


 
depends on the layout of the bath. sometimes you have to stub each lav seperate so you can vent a shower or something that is too far away. sometimes its impossible to vent a shower or tub individually.


----------



## Tommy plumber

nhmaster3015 said:


> Wow, you must be the most expensive plumber in town.
> Now ask yourself why you have been doing it that way.
> 
> Seems like good plumbing practice doesn't it? I suppose that on some level it may be but for the most part your extra fittings and time have not really accomplished much because 99% of the time, neither you nor anyone else will ever access those cleanouts provided the drainage was properly installed and graded. The reason that you don't see a section on required clean outs in chapter 9 (vents & venting) is because properly installed, vents should never need cleaning. Furthermore, it is nearly impossible to tell if a vent is plugged. A whole lot of apprentices, homeowners and wanna be plumbers think that you need a vent for the fixture to properly drain. That's absolute hogwash. Fixtures don't need vents at all to drain. The gravity and head pressure are all the fixture requires. I can ( and have ) fabricate an entire drainage system with not a single vent anywhere and guess what? Drains just fine. Slow drains are *always* the result of either a partially plugged drain or in improperly pitched drain ( or wrong size ) never a plugged vent.
> 
> Now let's see how many dissenting opinions we get on that :thumbsup:


 

I have to disagree with statement that vents aren't needed. Are you sure you were on a code review board? Ever wondered why at a gas station underground storage tanks are all vented? I have installed fuel storage tanks, underground piping for tanks, vents, and installed gas pumps. Vents are necessary. :thumbsup:


----------



## nhmaster3015

Thanks to little old me, there's gonna be a whole bunch of inspectors getting an ear full eh :whistling2:

Make sure you show them the diagrams from 706.3(8) Should make for a fun conversation :thumbsup:


----------



## stillaround

nhmaster3015 said:


> Thanks to little old me, there's gonna be a whole bunch of inspectors getting an ear full eh :whistling2:
> 
> Make sure you show them the diagrams from 706.3(8) Should make for a fun conversation :thumbsup:


 I may say something like there is this yankee plumber etc etc ...
Seriously, it will be interesting because my current interpretation is no tee...Im going to ask if the island sink flood rim is a principle to be extended further.. island sink being the most pertinent example.


----------



## Optimus Primer

nhmaster3015 said:


> No argument on the clean out or use of a combo fitting but that ain't what the question was. How long has it been raining? I'm heading down to Orlando next Thursday, hope it cools down a bit. My sister lives in the Sarasota area. Says its been hotter than the gates of hell down there.


I just saw this. It wont cool down till late Sept or mid Oct. It is hot and been kinda dry too. which makes it hotter.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Brings back memories. Start work at 3 am and quit by 10


----------



## mongo

Tommy plumber said:


> I have to disagree with statement that vents aren't needed. Are you sure you were on a code review board? Ever wondered why at a gas station underground storage tanks are all vented? I have installed fuel storage tanks, underground piping for tanks, vents, and installed gas pumps. Vents are necessary. :thumbsup:


I agree vents are absolutely necessary to protect the trap seal. Should something cause a negative pressure in the waste/soil pipes, you would want the vents to keep it from drawing water out of the trap.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Mongo buddy. I didn't say vents are not needed. I said that a fixture will drain just fine without one. Of course you need a vent to protect the trap seal. It's what modern plumbing principal has been based on for the past hundred or so years.


----------



## mongo

nhmaster3015 said:


> Mongo buddy. I didn't say vents are not needed. I said that a fixture will drain just fine without one. Of course you need a vent to protect the trap seal. It's what modern plumbing principal has been based on for the past hundred or so years.


Er..OK...got it.


----------



## Protech

:notworthy:



TheMaster said:


> I'll give you my opinion for sure:thumbsup:. Thats why I dont do new residential construction that much.....I do it correctly and that is expensive.
> 
> I have years of experience in peoples homes repairing what the new construction guy screwed up and with what the inspectors and the code let the new construction get away with.
> 
> Have you ever had a bathtub when drained would siphon the trap? I have because the vent was closed off with cast iron scale. I had to cut a wall,cut the pipe and clean it out. I installed a cleanout and patched the wall back in the closet.
> 
> Have you ever went and cleaned a sewer that had been backed up for a couple weeks and the owners kept using it and letting it drain down....then use it more....completely packing the line with toilet aper and sludge that backs up into everything below the lowest fixture? I have and it can clogg any vent.
> 
> Cleanouts properly located and long sweep fittings below the flood level rim are a good idea. Codebook,no codebook...hell or high water its a good thing. For a few $ and a few minutes of time can save a future owner and a plumber alot of trouble.:thumbsup:


----------



## ESPinc

Protech said:


> You can't lay a santee on it's back in Florida.


When I did a home in Santa Rosa County a few years back the inspector there told me that san tees are used underground daily in Okaloosa county. That conversation came up as I questioned why he was checking every fitting I had put in the ground. I asked why that passed, he told me that county required no 1st rough inspections and you would not believe what he sees when the "plumbers" come from that county into his.
BTW, a call to Santa Rosa about fittings that were allowed prior to me showing up there paid off. He saw the 3" double wyes I used for the eight bathroom groups and said they were not allowed, but he also remembered talking to me on the phone 2 months prior and what he said then, passed the job no problem..


----------



## Optimus Primer

we used to use double wyes in pinellas county in residential. go straight in to the toilet and each branch would catch a shower (or tub) and the other branch a lav. but in hillsborough you couldn't use them like that.


----------



## stillaround

Ok ...2 calls sofar
Columbia county no tees laying down
Suwannee county no " " "
Alachua no
Not even a question to discuss...no tees laying down period. I kinda like the south.

Get ready ckoch...coming your way soon...thanks for your attitude ...gonna make this more fun


----------



## nhmaster3015

house plumber said:


> 2007 florida code says no but there are a couple guys at the shop saying you can use like a 3x2 santee on it's back with the 2 inch vertical to catch a vent. I'm trying to prove them wrong. I'm saying you have to use a combo. Agree or disagree with me?



OK so regardless of anyone opinion's or feelings here I do believe that in the absence of a written and approved amendment by the state of Florida the answer to the question is.................YES YOU CAN :thumbsup:

Give those guys a raise, they are on top of things


----------



## stillaround

*Baker county*....problem is plumbers have a strong lobby in Tallahassee...thats why some of this stuff isnt clear.....if its not clearly a violation..I dont have a problem with it...but then said there is no water running thru it......I didnt want to tie up his time and pick it apart on the phone , hes a nice guy and said next time Im in we'll have coffee over it......cant register a vote at this time.


Oh Oh....
*St. Johns county*....yes 45 deg or up straight..is allowed

*Gilchrist county* is ok with a tee..yes

*Orange County*.....No..they consider the tee in the drainage system


*Polk..(*Ive never seen one under slab..I dont think it would be allowed where it could foul ( res. Plan review)

*Marion county*...no

*Escambia county*....definite no..its below the flood rim..thats how I learned it in the 70's...the section on island sinks doesnt change the flood rim issue..he said look at all the cleanouts in the picture...if its not completely dry...NO ( I particularly liked this guy)

*City of North Palm beach* ...no..it could foul

*Hamilton county*...." I dont think the code really allows it... I have allowed it under certain circumstances and may do so again if I feel it warrants it".


----------



## TheMaster

stillaround said:


> Baker county....problem is plumbers have a strong lobby in Tallahassee...thats why some of this stuff isnt clear.....if its not clearly a violation..I dont have a problem with it...but then said there is no water running thru it......I didnt want to tie up his time and pick it apart on the phone , hes a nice guy and said next time Im in we'll have coffee over it......cant register a vote at this time.


I would count that as "I dont really giva F...wanna buy me coffee?":laughing:
He would pass it.


----------



## ckoch407

stillaround said:


> Ok ...2 calls sofar
> Columbia county no tees laying down
> Suwannee county no " " "
> Alachua no
> Not even a question to discuss...no tees laying down period. I kinda like the south.
> 
> Get ready ckoch...coming your way soon...thanks for your attitude ...gonna make this more fun


Glad my smart a$$ self could make it interesting. :jester: this is a good topic though. As I said, I've never done this but it's interesting to broaden my understanding.


----------



## stillaround

I gotta get some work done...maybe Rockstar knows what Leon county allows....
I feel somewhat vindicated.....I have an email out to Broward and Duvall and gave up on Brevard..
Old nhmaster3015 is making his stance " *regardless of anyone opinion's or feelings* *here I do believe*"...and is now believing in his position....thats enough back peddle to satisfy me......

Seems this way of interpreting code is not so backwards....:thumbsup:


----------



## nhmaster3015

Go on and get back to work, you need the money.

However, a phone call means nothing except that there is a real good chance that the guys you talked to don't understand the code either. Make them show you the amendment. Hell, I'll bet 9 out of 10 licensed master plumbers will all tell you that it can't be done under the IPC and yet, there it is in black and white.


----------



## stillaround

When you get a chance ..show me where it is in black and white...Im using Florida 2007 online http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/florida_codes/
Seems most consider the tee in the drainage system

*"Go on and get back to work, you need the money."*
I didnt always need it,...but I do now:yes:.


----------



## nhmaster3015

You need to get a copy of the code with commentary. 706.3 (8) the picture is on the left side.

The san tee is being used as a vent fitting in a drain line.


----------



## ckoch407

TheMaster said:


> I run each vent out the roof or make sure they have proper cleanouts in the attic space that are accessible. I dont revent into a wall...always go to the attic space and then connect them together.


You would be the only person I have ever heard of doing that. I dont know one single person who would lug a cable machine into a hot 140 degree attic to cable a line. I know I wouldn't. I did make it up to Birmingham to bid some work a few years ago and they did put cleanouts about 16" to 18" above the floor on all the stacks (both 2" and 3") with a cover for the finished wall. They rarely do that in good ol' FL even though they should.


----------



## SlickRick

Did someone post that a combo. could be used in the vert posistion to pick-up a drain arm? If table 906.1 ( Maximum distance of fixture trap to vent) and 906.2 (venting of fixture drains) is in the current code. The weir of the trap would be higher than the vent opening when installed to max. length @ 1/4" fall per foot tied into a combo. Not so with a san tee. On a 11/2" line 5' in length, 1/4" fall per ft., it will be 1" above the vent opening on a 11/2 " combo.


----------



## stillaround

I posted it...I need Protech on this ...I dont know if its 2010 code or what...and have been chasing this stupid santee issue and has got me bonkers:blink:...and now they say I need the commentary of the 07 code to see a santee....Im not chasing right now...cant even find the state board number.......yes I did say vertical use of combo but I didnt say a length of the arm. I'm so far behind on paper work I dont want to do any of it...


What was the question?


----------



## TheMaster

nhmaster3015 said:


> Go on and get back to work, you need the money.
> 
> However, a phone call means nothing except that there is a real good chance that the guys you talked to don't understand the code either. Make them show you the amendment. Hell, I'll bet 9 out of 10 licensed master plumbers will all tell you that it can't be done under the IPC and yet, there it is in black and white.


Yeah yeah nobody understands Whats to understand.....its a san tee on its back below the flood rim. And most are saying NO:laughing:


----------



## TheMaster

ckoch407 said:


> You would be the only person I have ever heard of doing that. I dont know one single person who would lug a cable machine into a hot 140 degree attic to cable a line. I know I wouldn't. I did make it up to Birmingham to bid some work a few years ago and they did put cleanouts about 16" to 18" above the floor on all the stacks (both 2" and 3") with a cover for the finished wall. They rarely do that in good ol' FL even though they should.


It doesn't stay hot here all the time and if its hot I go early in the morning. You know a drum machine ...you can take the drums off of them and they aren't that bad to carry.

I dont agree with putting cleanouts that low in finished areas.


----------



## mongo

TheMaster said:


> I dont agree with putting cleanouts that low in finished areas.


Although it does not look good to put cleanouts that low in finished areas. It is mandated in our jurisdiction, in order to put a 10' head of water in tghe system for top out inspection.


----------



## TheMaster

mongo said:


> Although it does not look good to put cleanouts that low in finished areas. It is mandated in our jurisdiction, in order to put a 10' head of water in tghe system for top out inspection.


I cap the main and fill it all......does that make sense?


----------



## stillaround

nhmaster3015 said:


> You need to get a copy of the code with commentary. 706.3 (8) the picture is on the left side.
> 
> The san tee is being used as a vent fitting in a drain line.


 Cant find one...go ahead and print one up if you have time.....do you think the inspectors keep a commentary volume.......so I buy a code book...read it...interpret it as 80-90% of the inspectors and someone tells me I need a "commentary" that has a "picture" that says it all.......credibility sinkhole forming.


----------



## nhmaster3015

You don't have to push the issue with inspectors if there is no need. Like I said before, it's a 2 dollar fitting so it may not be worth the effort. For me, though it's an interesting bit in the code that often gets misinterpreted so I find it interesting.


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## Optimus Primer

We have to fill our dwv to the highest point through the roof. Talk about a waste of water.


----------



## TheMaster

house plumber said:


> We have to fill our dwv to the highest point through the roof. Talk about a waste of water.


I cap those off and continue to fill. When I do a new house nothing is left to chance. I even take the faucets apart and grease the set screws and what nots.


----------



## Optimus Primer

TheMaster said:


> I cap those off and continue to fill. When I do a new house nothing is left to chance. I even take the faucets apart and grease the set screws and what nots.


Well i go over to the neighbors house and will do a repipe while my dwv is filling then wash my van and do other what bots all while im waiting cuz i hate standing around. Beat that. :blink:


----------



## nhmaster3015

I feel compelled to add a point here. Some mention was made of the fitting in question being below the flood level rim of the fixture and indeed it is but, is not the san tee that is installed vertically for say a lav or sink also below the flood level rim? Sure it is........


----------



## TheMaster

nhmaster3015 said:


> I feel compelled to add a point here. Some mention was made of the fitting in question being below the flood level rim of the fixture and indeed it is but, is not the san tee that is installed vertically for say a lav or sink also below the flood level rim? Sure it is........


Yes it is. And the tee is in the vertical position. I dont have a problem with using a tee but just not on its back.:thumbsup:


----------



## nhmaster3015

The question was never whether or not you would have a problem with it but rather what does the code say about it.


----------



## mongo

nhmaster3015 said:


> I feel compelled to add a point here. Some mention was made of the fitting in question being below the flood level rim of the fixture and indeed it is but, is not the san tee that is installed vertically for say a lav or sink also below the flood level rim? Sure it is........


Good point. It is indeed.


----------



## mongo

TheMaster said:


> I cap the main and fill it all......does that make sense?


It does unless you are working on an 11 story building.


----------



## TheMaster

mongo said:


> It does unless you are working on an 11 story building.


First I've heard of how tall this building was:thumbsup: Who cares about whats seen in a commercial building as far as cleanouts....I was refering to testing a typical HOME.


----------



## TheMaster

mongo said:


> Good point. It is indeed.


If thats a good point then why dont you use them instead of a combo at the base of a stack for sewage?


----------



## Optimus Primer

TheMaster said:


> I cap the main and fill it all......does that make sense?


I do to. you never know if the slab guys put a stake through your pvc. it has happened to us several times. thats the only way to find out.


----------



## Bayside500

house plumber said:


> I do to. you never know if the slab guys put a stake through your pvc. it has happened to us several times. thats the only way to find out.


this is true,i think i posted pics of this happening awhile ago, i filled a house up and saw water coming through a crack in slab, would have never known about it without filling through the roof on tubset stage.


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## RealLivePlumber

We fill 'em all to the roof, every time.

Saves a whole lot of ag when the carpenter shots your shiot full of nails, or the closet guy puts a row of molly's in your stack, or the mason nails his wire lath for the fireplace to your other stack.........................


----------



## Optimus Primer

Bayside500 said:


> this is true,i think i posted pics of this happening awhile ago, i filled a house up and saw water coming through a crack in slab, would have never known about it without filling through the roof on tubset stage.


 
That big house Baumgart I did, that I posted the link on here for everyone to see, had it happen back by the theater area.


----------



## nhmaster3015

One of these days I tell you fellas a little story about a local inspector that wanted a hydro test on a 2 story with 80 year old cast iron and how much it cost the city in damages to the home and the loss of the inspectors job :laughing:


----------



## Optimus Primer

nhmaster3015 said:


> One of these days I tell you fellas a little story about a local inspector that wanted a hydro test on a 2 story with 80 year old cast iron and how much it cost the city in damages to the home and the loss of the inspectors job :laughing:


What a douche. I think my daughter even knows better than that.


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## nhmaster3015

You keep tellin them but they just don't listen. :laughing:


----------



## mongo

TheMaster said:


> If thats a good point then why dont you use them instead of a combo at the base of a stack for sewage?


Because the AHJ does not see it that way and I'm not going to waste time with an inspector trying to convince him against his will to see things my way.


----------



## TheMaster

mongo said:


> Because the AHJ does not see it that way and I'm not going to waste time with an inspector trying to convince him against his will to see things my way.


So if the code allowed san tees on their backs at the base of stacks for sewage you would install them?


----------



## mongo

TheMaster said:


> So if the code allowed san tees on their backs at the base of stacks for sewage you would install them?


No. Remember that "code" set a minimal standard. I am thinking about the service guy who is trying to get a snake down the pipe after big mama flushed a king sized sanitary napkin down the drain. I know, Iknow, there are other points of entry possible. What I'm trying to say is "If you can install it a better way alllowable by code, take the high road. Do it the best way possible without busting your price. Sometimes you may incounter a circumstance where you are limited to only one way to do the job and it would be to place the san tee on it's back, I'd say then you have no other choice.


----------



## nhmaster3015

So now that we are winding this one down I will tell you that the only time I have ever actually laid a san tee on it's back is to vent a 2" shower drain tucked up inside 2 x 10's


----------



## stillaround

Lets wind it down with some comments from Broward county and Duvall county:

Broward cty:



The tee is not allowed to be used in the wet portion of the drainage system. In the situation you are describing has a vertical vent connection to a horizintal line. The upstream portion of the line is the discharge from the shower, thus it is all below the flood rim level of the fixture. The connection you are describing is going from vertical to horizontal. This can only be accomplished by using the fittings listed in table 706.3 of FBC Plumbing.

Duvall cty

A tee can not lay flat on its back in the drainage system. And yes Section 913 applies to Island fixture venting only. I f you read it closely it states as follows,
The vent located below the flood level rim of the fixture being vented shall be installed as required for drainage piping in accordance with Chapter 7, except for sizing. Look at table 706.3- Fittings For Change Of Direction. Why would you even want to?
Mike



Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we have heard expert testimony from experienced plumbers using their common sense for one, we've heard from an overwhelming majority of inspectors who are a determinining local authority, we've followed the reasoning processes of those who dont grasp at straws and who dont stretch clear common sense for the obscure and ambiguous unstated...and have as yet received no evidence on the side of the santee crowd anything other than a mysterious "commentary".....that proves what???????? We've had to endure sarcasm and belittling, and still come out on top....(this is where the music starts)


----------



## nhmaster3015

You have those couple of comments but they are nothing more than someone elses interpretation which was my whole point in the first place. You also have what the code actually says, along with supporting diagrams.


----------



## stillaround

I believe the fat lady has sung :laughing:.....


----------



## nhmaster3015

I believe that you are willing to take the word of a couple of uninformed inspectors rather than read the code and understand what it says for yourself. I can do the exact same thing you did. If I call a dozen city inspectors I will undoubtedly get 80% of them telling me you can't do it, yet when I call ( and I did ) the State Plumbing board and talk to the head inspector I get an unequivocal " of course you can " Not to mention 10 members of the code review board that also agree that it is perfectly legal under the code. Unfortunately, you like many others have fallen into the trap of reading and interpreting the code based on your own personal biases and life long practices. I'll say to you one more time. Try reading the code looking for that which you can do rather than that which you can not. Your entire stance is based on one single chart in section 7 drainage. You totally fail to link that chart with section 9 venting and furthermore you take the paragraph on loop venting and apply it to the situation. On the other hand, though you can see with your own two eyes 706.3(8) where a san tee is clearly allowable ( below the flood level rim I may add) and yet you ( and many others ) stubbornly stick to your misconceptions. I am sure this short diatribe will not change your mind. Plumbers have a hard time changing their minds. We tend to get stubbornly stuck on things that we think are right even when they clearly are not.

So, let's try this one. Look at the diagram. Can you do this or not? ( the 3" stack is dry from the trap arm up )


----------



## Plasticman

All I see is a double trap, which is a no no


----------



## nhmaster3015

OK sounds good to me


----------



## SlickRick

Even with 1 trap, it would be 1 trap serving 2 fixtures.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Yes, I suppose that it would :whistling2:


----------



## Ron

nhmaster3015 said:


> So, let's try this one. Look at the diagram. Can you do this or not? ( the 3" stack is dry from the trap arm up )



Not under UPC code we can't


----------



## nhmaster3015

Under the UPC, probably not


----------



## SlickRick

nhmaster3015 said:


> Yes, I suppose that it would :whistling2:


So what is your point?


----------



## nhmaster3015

Do I need to have a point? :whistling2:

Just asking the question, yes or no. So far, all no's


----------



## SlickRick

nhmaster3015 said:


> Do I need to have a point? :whistling2:
> 
> Just asking the question, yes or no. So far, all no's


No you don't need to have a point, it would be pointless to have a point.


----------



## nhmaster3015

In this instance, you just may be correct :thumbsup:

So anyway.... yes or no?


----------



## stillaround

I have a question for you. If you live and work in Florida when there is something possibly unclear in the code who do you call?
A. Local authority with jurisdiction
B. Dr. Phil
C. Maine plumbing review board
D. All of the above


----------



## nhmaster3015

Good question. Who* should* you call?

Not Maine though. Maine is UPC not IPC


----------



## SlickRick

No... A standpipe is a indirect waste receptor and the discharge shall be by means an air gap or air break. Your sink is tied direct to the stand pipe.


----------



## stillaround

Question 2
What part of a DWV system is considered potentially wet?
A. Flood rim and below
B. 6" above flood rim and below
C. Only below the centerline of a drain fitting
D. Who cares I want to prove you can use a tee and everyone else is below the centerline


----------



## nhmaster3015

6" above flood level and below but man, you are taking this whole thing way way too seriously. All I'm doing is pointing out some of the ambiguities and down right stupid things that are in the code. So relax, nobody is calling you out here or impuning your plumbing skills.


----------



## TheMaster

It would not be allowed in my city. Our head plumbing inpsector would consider it double trapped.If you made the point that its already vented before it gets to the second trap he would fail it on improper venting. Now if you want to argue past that point you could make an appeal which you would lose. Ok from there you could take it to court and you would lose there too IMO simply because the head plumbing inspector makes the final decision here and if you happen to win by chance......it would be written into the city code that its not allowed despite what any other agency or code says. That sums it up for me.


----------



## stillaround

Question 3

How many times does the section 9 of the plumbing code have to refer to section 7 before someone realizes there is a connection?"
A. Depends on the person
B. 2
C. 4
D. It wouldnt matter if 9 was a complete copy of 7..its section 9 not section 7...no connection.


Yes Im taking it too seriously right now...I will chill.


----------



## nhmaster3015

2009 IPC p2706.2.1

If taken to court I would indeed win provided the local jurisdiction had not formally adopted an amendment to that particular section.
I would also have a plumbing inspector that would be really really pissed off at me :thumbsup:

I don't write this stuff. Most of the time I don't even agree with this stuff, but as long as it's there in black and white, it is what it is.


----------



## Optimus Primer

slickrick said:


> Even with 1 trap, it would be 1 trap serving 2 fixtures.


If you eliminate the trap on the laundry tub and use a 90 instead its now considered a safe waste. Which is ok within a distance of 25 feet.


----------



## SlickRick

house plumber said:


> If you eliminate the trap on the laundry tub and use a 90 instead its now considered a safe waste. Which is ok within a distance of 25 feet.


I would have turned it down. like I mentioned standpipes are listed as an indirect waste receptor under 802.4. 802.2 says all indirect waste shall discharge through an air gap or air break.


----------



## Plasticman

So tomorrow I think I may go fishing. :whistling2:


----------



## Optimus Primer

slickrick said:


> I would have turned it down. like I mentioned standpipes are listed as an indirect waste receptor under 802.4. 802.2 says all indirect waste shall discharge through an air gap or air break.


hang on let me look at something. but mean while: That is how we used to do our water sofner drains. run 3/4 pvc from the softner overhead and drop down by the washer box. at the stand pipe between the hanson box and the trap tie in a 2x1.5 santee and bush it down to 3/4 for the softner drain. I think some plumbers in our area still does it like that.


----------



## Optimus Primer

I dont know. Cant find it but I have done it before. Where the stand pipe was on the laundry tub side and I couldnt tie into the stack so I cut a tee in the standpipe and safe wasted the laundry tub and it passed.


----------



## RealLivePlumber

nhmaster3015 said:


> I believe that you are willing to take the word of a couple of uninformed inspectors rather than read the code and understand what it says for yourself. I can do the exact same thing you did. If I call a dozen city inspectors I will undoubtedly get 80% of them telling me you can't do it, yet when I call ( and I did ) the State Plumbing board and talk to the head inspector I get an unequivocal " of course you can " Not to mention 10 members of the code review board that also agree that it is perfectly legal under the code. Unfortunately, you like many others have fallen into the trap of reading and interpreting the code based on your own personal biases and life long practices. I'll say to you one more time. Try reading the code looking for that which you can do rather than that which you can not. Your entire stance is based on one single chart in section 7 drainage. You totally fail to link that chart with section 9 venting and furthermore you take the paragraph on loop venting and apply it to the situation. On the other hand, though you can see with your own two eyes 706.3(8) where a san tee is clearly allowable ( below the flood level rim I may add) and yet you ( and many others ) stubbornly stick to your misconceptions. I am sure this short diatribe will not change your mind. Plumbers have a hard time changing their minds. We tend to get stubbornly stuck on things that we think are right even when they clearly are not.
> 
> So, let's try this one. Look at the diagram. Can you do this or not? ( the 3" stack is dry from the trap arm up )


 Perfectly acceptable under the National Standard Plumbing Code. Just don't put the trap under the LT.


----------



## Plasticman

I had heard from an un-reliable source a few years back that you could pipe a relief line into the wm standpipe. I tried it and it got turned down so I now do it all the way I was taught and have no problems.


----------



## Protech

Uhh, why? Did he have an article of code to quote?



ESPinc said:


> When I did a home in Santa Rosa County a few years back the inspector there told me that san tees are used underground daily in Okaloosa county. That conversation came up as I questioned why he was checking every fitting I had put in the ground. I asked why that passed, he told me that county required no 1st rough inspections and you would not believe what he sees when the "plumbers" come from that county into his.
> BTW, a call to Santa Rosa about fittings that were allowed prior to me showing up there paid off. *He saw the 3" double wyes I used for the eight bathroom groups and said they were not allowed*, but he also remembered talking to me on the phone 2 months prior and what he said then, passed the job no problem..


----------



## Protech

There, now it's legal in Florida.





nhmaster3015 said:


> I believe that you are willing to take the word of a couple of uninformed inspectors rather than read the code and understand what it says for yourself. I can do the exact same thing you did. If I call a dozen city inspectors I will undoubtedly get 80% of them telling me you can't do it, yet when I call ( and I did ) the State Plumbing board and talk to the head inspector I get an unequivocal " of course you can " Not to mention 10 members of the code review board that also agree that it is perfectly legal under the code. Unfortunately, you like many others have fallen into the trap of reading and interpreting the code based on your own personal biases and life long practices. I'll say to you one more time. Try reading the code looking for that which you can do rather than that which you can not. Your entire stance is based on one single chart in section 7 drainage. You totally fail to link that chart with section 9 venting and furthermore you take the paragraph on loop venting and apply it to the situation. On the other hand, though you can see with your own two eyes 706.3(8) where a san tee is clearly allowable ( below the flood level rim I may add) and yet you ( and many others ) stubbornly stick to your misconceptions. I am sure this short diatribe will not change your mind. Plumbers have a hard time changing their minds. We tend to get stubbornly stuck on things that we think are right even when they clearly are not.
> 
> So, let's try this one. Look at the diagram. Can you do this or not? ( the 3" stack is dry from the trap arm up )


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## nhmaster3015

It's legal without the modifications unless it has been amended.


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## SlickRick

Protech said:


> There, now it's legal in Florida.


Section 802 of the Florida plumbing code describes standpipes and waste discharge into them. How have they come up with what you are showing being legal?


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## SlickRick

nhmaster3015 said:


> It's legal without the modifications unless it has been amended.


BS.


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## nhmaster3015

2009 IPC P2706.2.1

It's right there in black and white, complete with the diagram


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## SlickRick

nhmaster3015 said:


> 2009 IPC P2706.2.1
> 
> It's right there in black and white, complete with the diagram


Did they remove 802 in the '09


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## nhmaster3015

No.... they did not. :blink:


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## SlickRick

nhmaster3015 said:


> No.... they did not. :blink:


Then how can a direct connection be made to a standpipe legally? The IPC has turned into a left wing org.


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## nhmaster3015

we don't call it the Idiots Plumbing Code for nothing.


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## SlickRick

nhmaster3015 said:


> we don't call it the Idiots Plumbing Code for nothing.


Really....What's new for 2012. rubber hoses?


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## Protech

What specifically in 802 makes it illegal? I didn't see anything.



slickrick said:


> Section 802 of the Florida plumbing code describes standpipes and waste discharge into them. How have they come up with what you are showing being legal?


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## SlickRick

Protech said:


> What specifically in 802 makes it illegal? I didn't see anything.


A standpipe is an indirect waste receptor and receives waste via air gap or air break.


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## Protech

I think you are misunderstanding that section. 



slickrick said:


> A standpipe is an indirect waste receptor and receives waste via air gap or air break.


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## SlickRick

Protech said:


> I think you are misunderstanding that section.


No I'm not. I spent 2 yrs. understanding code interpretation. Explain how I am misunderstanding.


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## Protech

Wouldn't it have to have an air break then?



slickrick said:


> No I'm not. I spent 2 yrs. understanding code interpretation. Explain how I am misunderstanding.


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## nhmaster3015

slickrick said:


> Really....What's new for 2012. rubber hoses?



PEX :laughing:


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## SlickRick

Protech said:


> Wouldn't it have to have an air break then?


The sink would have to discharge via air break just like the air break that a washer hose provides. They are butchering the codes to meet the needs of builders without removing sections that would prohibit some of these modified ideas.


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## Protech

That was my point. The drain hose is not an airbreak as defined by the code. So they must not consider the washer drain a "stand pipe".



slickrick said:


> The sink would have to discharge via air break just like the air break that a washer hose provides. They are butchering the codes to meet the needs of builders without removing sections that would prohibit some of these modified ideas.


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## SlickRick

Protech said:


> That was my point. The drain hose is not an airbreak as defined by the code. So they must not consider the washer drain a "stand pipe".


Quote me the definition of air break.

What section of the code do you get your requirements for the distance from trap to were your washer box is mounted? What is the term used for the pipe between the trap and wb.

And on the drawing posted it is labeled " standpipe".


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## Protech

*AIR BREAK (Drainage System).* A piping arrangement in which a drain from a fixture, appliance or device discharges indirectly into another fixture, receptacle or interceptor at a point below the flood level rim and above the trap seal.

802.2.1 Air gap. The air gap between the indirect waste pipe and the flood level rim of the waste receptor shall be a minimum of twice the effective opening of the indirect waste pipe

*802.4 Standpipes.* Standpipes shall be individually trapped. Standpipes shall extend a minimum of 18 inches (457 mm) and a maximum of 42 inches (1066 mm) above the trap weir. Access shall be provided to all standpipes and drains for rodding.


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## Protech

So let me ask you this Rick, would it make you happy if I just pulled the washer drain hose out of the stack and hung it in the laundry tray? :whistling2:


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## SlickRick

Protech said:


> *AIR BREAK (Drainage System).* A piping arrangement in which a drain from a fixture, appliance or device discharges indirectly into another fixture, receptacle or interceptor at a point below the flood level rim and above the trap seal.
> 
> 802.2.1 Air gap. The air gap between the indirect waste pipe and the flood level rim of the waste receptor shall be a minimum of twice the effective opening of the indirect waste pipe
> 
> *802.4 Standpipes.* Standpipes shall be individually trapped. Standpipes shall extend a minimum of 18 inches (457 mm) and a maximum of 42 inches (1066 mm) above the trap weir. Access shall be provided to all standpipes and drains for rodding.


Exactly, A washer hose(appliance) is a physical seperation from the pipe. ( not attached)


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## SlickRick

Protech said:


> So let me ask you this Rick, would it make you happy if I just pulled the washer drain hose out of the stack and hung it in the laundry tray? :whistling2:


It's not about making me happy. I just see the twisted modifications that are going on to meet special needs. And I really don't care what they do, but they just need to re-write the codes to fit their needs and not try to twist interpretations of what was originally intended .


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## Titan Plumbing

I hear crickets..............:whistling2: Or are those dove hitting the ground?


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## SlickRick

2 weeks :thumbup:


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## nhmaster3015

are we all in agreement here that this little tidbit of code is perhaps the most glaringly stupid thing we have seen in awhile? And yet, there it is in all it's ambiguous glory for the confusion of plumbers and inspectors alike.

So, though I have probably riled a few of you up, what I hope I have done is to point out that the damn code is full of this confusing stuff. Year after year they try to make it less confusing and only make it worse. What I am really trying to do is to get enough plumbers riled up so that we as licensed professionals that know what is good and what is bad, may one day put together a unified code that can be universally read, understood and implemented by all the states so that we don't have a half dozen versions of stupid ****.


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## Optimus Primer

nhmaster3015 said:


> are we all in agreement here that this little tidbit of code is perhaps the most glaringly stupid thing we have seen in awhile? And yet, there it is in all it's ambiguous glory for the confusion of plumbers and inspectors alike.
> 
> So, though I have probably riled a few of you up, what I hope I have done is to point out that the damn code is full of this confusing stuff. Year after year they try to make it less confusing and only make it worse. What I am really trying to do is to get enough plumbers riled up so that we as licensed professionals that know what is good and what is bad, may one day put together a unified code that can be universally read, understood and implemented by all the states so that we don't have a half dozen versions of stupid ****.


I'm still going to ask 2 of the hardest by the book inspectors in Pinellas County, maybe even the hardest in the world. Lenny and Kenny. just ask ESPinc.


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## Plasticman

It was bad enough before to have codes that were difficult to decipher but because of the 1.6 toilet, we can now do crazy stuff like catch a tub on the left and lav on the right and toilet in the middle using a 3x2 double wye. I can't keep up with the changes.


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## Optimus Primer

Plasticman said:


> It was bad enough before to have codes that were difficult to decipher but because of the 1.6 toilet, we can now do crazy stuff like catch a tub on the left and lav on the right and toilet in the middle using a 3x2 double wye. I can't keep up with the changes.


 
we used to use 3 inch double wyes the way you described back in the 90's. Only one county would allow it though and it was Pinellas. It had to be a full 3 inch though and bush it down on the branches. I think we can still use them for gang back to back bathrooms as long as there is a vent on the end.


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## SlickRick

nhmaster3015 said:


> are we all in agreement here that this little tidbit of code is perhaps the most glaringly stupid thing we have seen in awhile? And yet, there it is in all it's ambiguous glory for the confusion of plumbers and inspectors alike.
> 
> So, though I have probably riled a few of you up, what I hope I have done is to point out that the damn code is full of this confusing stuff. Year after year they try to make it less confusing and only make it worse. What I am really trying to do is to get enough plumbers riled up so that we as licensed professionals that know what is good and what is bad, may one day put together a unified code that can be universally read, understood and implemented by all the states so that we don't have a half dozen versions of stupid ****.


You have been around as long as I have. There has been talk about a unified code as long as I can remember. The IPC was touted as being that code body. I would take the old SBCCI or IAPMO anytime over IPC.


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## nhmaster3015

Here's another point guys. Just because an inspector says it's so, does not mean that it is. Inspectors can to some degree interpret the code, they can not make it up as they go. Never take an inspectors word for something. Look it up and challenge him if need be. Remember that most of these guys are not licensed plumbers. The information they get is from books, seminars and hanging around other inspectors. I have challenged inspectors more times than I can remember over the years and have never lost.


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## Ron

nhmaster3015 said:


> Here's another point guys. Just because an inspector says it's so, does not mean that it is. Inspectors can to some degree interpret the code, they can not make it up as they go. Never take an inspectors word for something. Look it up and challenge him if need be. Remember that most of these guys are not licensed plumbers. The information they get is from books, seminars and hanging around other inspectors. I have challenged inspectors more times than I can remember over the years and have never lost.


Here in Oregon to be an inspector you have to have been a licensed plumber to become an inspector.

Yep they can't make up there own code just because they want to, as long as installed plumbing meets the min code requirement, that's all thats matters.


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## TheMaster

Ron said:


> Here in Oregon to be an inspector you have to have been a licensed plumber to become an inspector.
> 
> Yep they can't make up there own code just because they want to, as long as installed plumbing meets the min code requirement, that's all thats matters.


Theres no "workmanship" clause in your code? here they can fail it if its done in a stupid or sloppy manner. Say for instance a guy wants to use 50 couplings in a piece of pipe 10' long.......they could fail that even tho no one particular code was broken.


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## Ron

TheMaster said:


> Theres no "workmanship" clause in your code? here they can fail it if its done in a stupid or sloppy manner. Say for instance a guy wants to use 50 couplings in a piece of pipe 10' long.......they could fail that even tho no one particular code was broken.



Yes there is workmanship in our code, yes if it is sloppy like you say, they can call us on it.


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## SlickRick

Plumbing inspector was the best job I ever had. Ride around all day, don't have to lift anything heavier than a pen, off every holiday there is, nice uniforms, city paid training trips for a week at a time, plumbers trying to give you gifts, with nothing expected in return. It's a shame it doesn't pay shiot.


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## nhmaster3015

years back I asked the board as to the subject of inspectors needing a license. I was told and subsequently verified that in New Hampshire it is against the states constitution to require inspectors to be licensed :furious:
So we have what is referred to as the good old boy clause whereby the brother in law of a town official is given the job regardless of qualification. :thumbsup: There are also several lesbian inspectors around because the city needs diversification in hiring and hell, why not screw the contractors :laughing:


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## Optimus Primer

in florida there is just a 50 question test then you have to take a laws and practice class and test and its 200 questions on that, i think.


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## Ron

I'd like to retract my statement about inspector requirement here in Oregon. There is other ways to become a plumbing inspector. Even though it is true I should have researched before I posted it.

Here are the requirements.

*To qualify you must satisfy the following requirements

Must have an active Oregon Inspectors certification (OIC).

Any one of the following meets minimum experience requirements:

...Three years of employment and experience as an Oregon journeyman plumber (JP); or

...A degree in mechanical engineering or certified profession registration with two years experience in plumbing design, installation, or inspection; or,

...Four years of work experience in the inspection of plumbing installation of which at least two years is of commercial, industrial and multi-family structures, or

...Four years of work experience in the inspection of plumbing installation in residential installations and completion of division approved plumbing inspector training program; or

...Any combination of experience and training from above, or

...Previously certified Oregon one and two family dwelling Plumbing Inspector after April 1, 1998 with five years experience.*


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## nhmaster3015

So Ron, technically a guy with a degree in mechanical engineering qualifies even though he may have specialized in say bridge design? Too many ways around the whole issue for my liking. I guarantee if the mayor or city managers son wants the job they will find a way to give it to him.


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## Ron

nhmaster3015 said:


> So Ron, technically a guy with a degree in mechanical engineering qualifies even though he may have specialized in say bridge design? Too many ways around the whole issue for my liking. I guarantee if the mayor or city managers son wants the job they will find a way to give it to him.



If whom ever meets the requirements, pays the fees and passes the exam then yes they can be a certified plumbing inspector.

*Exam specifics

4 hour open book test with 64 questions. 
Must receive a score of 75% or higher to pass the exam.

The following subject areas may be covered:

Administrative Rules Chapter 918 divsion 690-785
Oregon Revised Statutes chapters 447 and 693
2008 Oregon Plumbing Specialty Code
ADA Structural Code Standards Chapter 11
*


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## Plasticman

TheMaster said:


> Theres no "workmanship" clause in your code? here they can fail it if its done in a stupid or sloppy manner. Say for instance a guy wants to use 50 couplings in a piece of pipe 10' long.......they could fail that even tho no one particular code was broken.


My old boss told me he ran out of stove bolts once and used closet bolts for his hanger iron and the inspector turned the job down because of that. 
I don't know if that's true or not


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