# Why MOEN beats KOHLER



## Plumbersteve (Jan 25, 2011)

saw this "handy" kohler service box in a supply house and I reminded me of my similar moen box. The difference being: I can store my moen box on a shelf next to my dremel tool. It weighs about 3 pounds (vs 30 pounds for the kohler one) and anything that I need to fix any moen ever built is in there, with the exception of trim and handle adapters, but I don't think the kohler box has that stuff either.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Great example right there, agree 100%


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

How are you supposed to know which of the 33,457,928 unique Kohler parts go in that box?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

I used to carry all kind of faucet parts with my ex company.. whole truck compartment just for that.. now I just carry Moen parts in just one bin..


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## KoleckeINC (Oct 22, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> I used to carry all kind of faucet parts with my ex company.. whole truck compartment just for that.. now I just carry Moen parts in just one bin..


Marked Garbage Ha-Ha. Jk


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

So you're saying Moen beats Kohler in repair ideas or quality?


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## Plumbersteve (Jan 25, 2011)

Both. If I have to take a pedestal top back to the shop to change ceramic stems, I question the quality. Also, have you ever had a moen valve that was unrepairable due to mineral buildup? I rarely see a kohler valve whose repairability I DONT question due to mineral buildup. This, by the way, is true for any valve with a plastic balancing spool behind the cartridge cap.


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## Plumbersteve (Jan 25, 2011)

Admittedly, their consumer grade products of late are pretty chincy. I don't like that, but their track record allows them some leeway on that I guess. 

Also, I had a kohler roman tub valve leaking from the vacuum breaker last week. The repair part was $300. 

$300...for a single part of a faucet. That's outrageous. So called "quality" has to be judged in terms to repairability and repair cost. Not only in repair interval.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

KoleckeINC said:


> Marked Garbage Ha-Ha. Jk


Delta and Grohe are marked junk..


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## KoleckeINC (Oct 22, 2011)

Plumbersteve said:


> Both. If I have to take a pedestal top back to the shop to change ceramic stems, I question the quality. Also, have you ever had a moen valve that was unrepairable due to mineral buildup? I rarely see a kohler valve whose repairability I DONT question due to mineral buildup. This, by the way, is true for any valve with a plastic balancing spool behind the cartridge cap.


I know what you mean. Vice grips holding the basin wrench and a small pipe wrench, or socket on top.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

KoleckeINC said:


> I know what you mean. Vice grips holding the basin wrench and a small pipe wrench, or socket on top.


Same with Crane dial-ease faucet.. anyone remmy that??


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## KoleckeINC (Oct 22, 2011)

I just did a dial-ese. Got the updates brass lever handles from the faucet shoppe. New seats too. First time I ever saw seats 1 1/2" long


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

If I were to stop carrying the necessary kohler repair parts.....I could ditch my 16' service trailer for a Tacoma :laughing:


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## wharfrat (Nov 1, 2014)

every time I saddle up to pull a moen stem I send up a prayer to the plumbing Gods. A frozen Moen stem, even with the tool, can make a grown man cry.

Never had that happen with Kohler...


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

delta I know I will have to heat or cut the bonnet nut off, moen I know I will have to just chisel and pry the cartridge out. Kohler I know I will have to spend hours searching for parts and making a second call when they come in all the while hoping I dont ruin something so I can put the stupid thing back together so the customer has water while waiting for parts


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## Plumbersteve (Jan 25, 2011)

wharfrat said:


> every time I saddle up to pull a moen stem I send up a prayer to the plumbing Gods. A frozen Moen stem, even with the tool, can make a grown man cry.
> 
> Never had that happen with Kohler...



We figured out a work around for that. On old standard moens, if you pull the core and the tube stays, forget the T handle thing. I've never been successful with that. 

Get yourself a half inch tap. Then cut a piece of steel all thread about 2.5". Stick the all thread in the valve and "tap" the tube. The threads will bite and when the tap hits the all thread the tube will start extracting itself. Easy peasy. The other method is to use a 1/2" easy out. 

The only time I struggle with a moen repair is when the home owner broke off the brass stem of a positemp. In that case, I drill two holes in the flat parts of the stem and screw in two tapcons. Grab those babies with your pliers and get ta twistin. Out it comes. No worries.


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## Plumbersteve (Jan 25, 2011)

So when your customer asks you what kind of faucet to buy what do you tell them?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

PZ member Plumber_Bill has a very efficient solution to the Moen issue. Scroll down the page a bit to see his modified needle nose pliers. Hard to beat old-school ingenuity.

http://parrsplumbing.blogspot.com/2008/11/tools-for-plumbers.html


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## wharfrat (Nov 1, 2014)

Plumbersteve said:


> So when your customer asks you what kind of faucet to buy what do you tell them?


I Like Moen and Delta, usually easy to repair and parts are readily available.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Plumbersteve said:


> So when your customer asks you what kind of faucet to buy what do you tell them?


For tub/shower... MOENTROL!


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Plumbersteve said:


> We figured out a work around for that. On old standard moens, if you pull the core and the tube stays, forget the T handle thing. I've never been successful with that.
> 
> Get yourself a half inch tap. Then cut a piece of steel all thread about 2.5". Stick the all thread in the valve and "tap" the tube. The threads will bite and when the tap hits the all thread the tube will start extracting itself. Easy peasy. The other method is to use a 1/2" easy out.
> 
> The only time I struggle with a moen repair is when the home owner broke off the brass stem of a positemp. In that case, I drill two holes in the flat parts of the stem and screw in two tapcons. Grab those babies with your pliers and get ta twistin. Out it comes. No worries.


I use wooden dowel instead..


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Kohler from a plumbing supply house is much better quality that Moen.


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## Plumbersteve (Jan 25, 2011)

dhal22 said:


> Kohler from a plumbing supply house is much better quality that Moen.



Define quality


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I used to have to moan when I would have to fix moen


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## Texan (Feb 21, 2015)

Kohler is not made with the plumber in mind and if there goofy parts break it hard to get them to warranty. Moen is very good about warranty parts. How often do you guys call in for the customer?


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

I got a call from a customer last week about his 2 Kohler shower valves I installed in '94, one of them is dripping a little. Kohler is sending a new cartridge, free of course.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> How are you supposed to know which of the 33,457,928 unique Kohler parts go in that box?


Easy!

Just put the ones in there that your supply house actually stocks...:laughing:

:thumbup:


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Put in a symmons and be a hero👍👍


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

put in a peerless. The parts are easy to find. At Wal-Mart.


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## HonestPlumb (Jan 25, 2015)

Plmbgbiz- 33,457,928 ,and that's just the tank balls. Which they change every year and the crossreference list on the sid of the boxes keeps getting longer ! Just incredible.


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## HonestPlumb (Jan 25, 2015)

wharfrat- Yes a lot of the Moen cartridges will have the center of the cartridge pull out,even with the Moen tool. Especially in hard water areas as where I live. I just use a 1/2" easy out and spin the outer portion of the cartridge and it comes out every time. Ever tried to repair an 8" spread Kohler on a pedestal that has been installed over 8 years in a hard water area ? You about need the 2' on the stem ! Also you better have one heck of a hold of the stem assembly underneath. Because one little movement of those copper lines they put on, and either you get a leak or a kink ! I have learned new curse words when repairing Kohler products. I actually had a cast iron drop in kitchen sink once that would not stop leaking around the strainer from below after 6 or 8 strainers of all different manufacturers. Finally got Kohler to replace the sink. Even paid me the labor ! How unusual is that ? It was about 20 years ago though.


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## Plumbersteve (Jan 25, 2011)

HonestPlumb said:


> I have learned new curse words when repairing Kohler products.



Hahaha. Me too.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

HonestPlumb said:


> Plmbgbiz- 33,457,928 ,and that's just the tank balls. Which they change every year and the crossreference list on the sid of the boxes keeps getting longer ! Just incredible.


Ain't it rediculous?!!!! I hate the product so much I refer to it as the "J(&@ed-off Look of Kohler"!


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Easy!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In that case, I can get a much smaller box.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> How are you supposed to know which of the 33,457,928 unique Kohler parts go in that box?





Redwood said:


> Easy!
> 
> Just put the ones in there that your supply house actually stocks...:laughing:
> 
> :thumbup:





plbgbiz said:


> In that case, I can get a much smaller box.


That pitch was right in the strike zone aimed at the sweet spot of your bat wasn't it? :laughing:


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

how many toilets, sinks, and tub drains does moen make? you arent comparing apples to apples when using part numbers alone. :whistling2:


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## Plumbersteve (Jan 25, 2011)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> how many toilets, sinks, and tub drains does moen make? you arent comparing apples to apples when using part numbers alone. :whistling2:



Eh...I dig their China products. This box is for faucet repair. So, yeah...apples to apples.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

i have the kohler box. i keep the basics in it for faucets and flappers.i also keep parts for moen, delta, and mansfield in it.


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## cecil65 (Mar 15, 2015)

i agree


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

cecil65 said:


> i agree


Can we drop the ban hammer on this guy?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

cecil65 said:


> i agree


The exit door is on your left..


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

If plumbing was easy, we all would be making minimum wage. I fix or replace whatever I'm given and charge accordingly.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Kohler often means "I gotta order parts". Funny thing about Kohler is you can buy the whole valve cheaper than you can buy the cartridge.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

ChrisConnor said:


> Funny thing about Kohler is you can buy the whole valve cheaper than you can buy the cartridge.


Same goes for Symons. Doesn't bother me with either brand. I'll buy the whole valve, charge the customer for it, strip the parts I need and scrap the brass body.

There are more Kohler products in houses around here than Moen so I actually have an easier time getting parts for Kohler than Moen.
Most of the time I'll give then the choice of contacting Kohler for the free replacement part or me buying it so it can be fixed that day. All depends on how bad the problem is in which way they want to go.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

bct p&h said:


> Same goes for Symons. Doesn't bother me with either brand. I'll buy the whole valve, charge the customer for it, strip the parts I need and scrap the brass body.
> 
> There are more Kohler products in houses around here than Moen so I actually have an easier time getting parts for Kohler than Moen.
> Most of the time I'll give then the choice of contacting Kohler for the free replacement part or me buying it so it can be fixed that day. All depends on how bad the problem is in which way they want to go.


We have several supply houses here pushing Kohler products but won't do sh!t about getting or ordering few of zillions part we needs... so again, its MOENTROL...


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

Install a price pfister and be a hero.


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

jmc12185 said:


> Install a price pfister and be a hero.


You're wrong..... if you really want to be a hero, install a GB.... I know someone in here that love it :whistling2:


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

install a moen in your house and be the king of the trailer park.:laughing:


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> install a moen in your house and be the king of the trailer park.:laughing:


 The wheels on my house have real nice rims. lol


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## HonestPlumb (Jan 25, 2015)

I really do not get it. I have been installing both Moen and Kohler for 30 years and in my opinion a Moen 7300 or 7310 was not only better in quality than any Kohler KS faucets, but always easier to repair. 9 out of 10 times after 15 years the 1224 cartridge for Moen will pull out ( with a little turning back and forth first) every time. Even if just the middle pulls out of it. I just use an Easy Out and remove the outer portion. The Kohler's every time it is a major ordeal just to get to the cartridge. I live in a very hard water area also. It plays havoc with everything. Also, the Kohler toilets, no one can say that the Tank Ball/Flapper situation is not insane ! I must literally have 15 different or cross reference ones ! Plus so many times I have gone to repair a Rialto (and alike) and have had to use more than one of their own repair kits or complete ballcock and flush valves to repair it. I guess just like everything else in this world, 'To each his own". The best is when the showroom sales person sells them a Bidet and the handle assemblies are to big to fit through the hole in the porcelain Bidet. True story, not Kohler's fault obviously-it just happened to be a Kohler though that's why it came to mind. I say what ever your preference is, then so be it !


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## HonestPlumb (Jan 25, 2015)

Flyout95- excuse me for being naive, but "ban hammer" ? That is definitely a new one for me.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Up until recently a Kohler ks faucet weighed 3 times that of a Moen. Solid brass, firm handles and spout, better looking design and finish. I could care less about the service difficulties, I charge what's appropriate.


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## Plumber1970 (Mar 6, 2013)

Kohler t/s valves are so much harder to install in a 2x4 wall. Yeesh. I truly believe moen is a far better product.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

Plumber1970 said:


> Kohler t/s valves are so much harder to install in a 2x4 wall. Yeesh. I truly believe moen is a far better product.
> 
> ??? i am confused


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## IAplumber (Mar 28, 2010)

Around here delta is number one followed by kohler and moen and absolutely dead last is American Standard. God their faucets suck.


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

Plumber1970 said:


> Kohler t/s valves are so much harder to install in a 2x4 wall. Yeesh. I truly believe moen is a far better product.


 I think he means because they sit so deep in the wall.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

i dont work in trailer parks. all of my customers have 2x4 walls.


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## Hosty (Mar 22, 2015)

Moen = most reliable and user/installer friendly


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Hosty said:


> Moen = most reliable and user/installer friendly


Hosty, we here will be giving you the most reliable unfriendly replys if you don't post proper introduction..


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## Plumbersteve (Jan 25, 2011)

IAplumber said:


> And absolutely dead last is American Standard. God their faucets suck.



I like to tell my customers that two things American standard products aren't are American and Standard. Then I point to the made-in sticker or stamp in the China that says Bolivia or Nicaragua.


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## thumper (Aug 19, 2011)

I don't care for the newer Delta faucets, i hate the DST supplied pex supplies. Have to carry adapters now just in case angle supply valves are 1/2" compression. 
Their kitchen faucets don't mount securely, the base for 8" spread faucets are only secured by the center of the faucet. 
That Hans Grohe kitchen faucet that Costco carries mounts very securely. Feels solid like the older Kohler all brass faucets.
Every try to remove a Delta handle and the set screw strips? Damn pewter handles! I always grease set screws, stem splines.... so when I have to repair them in the future there is a good chance I can remove them.


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