# Pouring Lead Joints



## plumbcrazy81 (Jun 17, 2012)

Just looking for some tips on pouring lead joints. I've done it at least a few dozen times, but I still run into problems once in awhile. Last time I did it, after my pour I was left with a small gap at the very bottom of the hub where the lead didn't run for some reason. I figure the lead must not have been hot enough and it set up before making it all the way to the bottom of the fitting, OR I poured it to slow, maybe my "Pour hole" at the top was too small, making me pour slower...Anyway, My questions are:
How do you know when the Lead is hot enough? I had a past co-worker (licensed) tell me that he dips a flathead screwdriver all the way in the ladle and if it comes out clean its ready to pour. This same guy also used the same screwdriver to scrape the slag off the top before pouring. As a side not, im not talking about lead pots, most of the time when im pouring its one joint to transition to PVC or no hub. So im talking about melting in a ladle. The first "plumber" I apprenticed for ("plumber" because come to find out years later he had no license) Told me to heat the lead and the ladle until you see rainbow colors appear in the lead, and this is your signal its ready to pour.
Another co-worker told me he would NEVER dip a screwdriver or anything into molten lead because if there's even a hint of moisture on it, it will have explosive results...He also said that he leaves the slag on the top, because when you pour the slag stays in the ladle. Just looking for Tips, Tricks and any other useful info when it comes to pouring lead.


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## plumbcrazy81 (Jun 17, 2012)

Oh and by the way, if your wondering what I did about the small gap at the bottom of my pour I packed the ****e out of it with lead wool. Go ahead and hate! It was underground and I know that a joint properly packed with oakum will hold with no lead, lead just acting as a "stopper." If it was exposed I probably would have redone it as Im a bit of a perfectionist with neat work and whatnot.


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

Wish I could help you out with the lead, lost art. I've done cold caulks before instead of the lead, worked quickly on servicing apartment drains. Still packed the joint with oakum then pc4 and an epoxy crown. Man it's been a few years lol good luck!


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## Plumber patt (Jan 26, 2011)

ya why lead? why not pc4? waay easier... I have never done any lead work before so I am kinda biast I guess, but it just seems like a lot more work for the same result?


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

Are multi-seal gaskets not allowed?


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## plumbcrazy81 (Jun 17, 2012)

Yeah I know its a dying art, but here in Mass its still done a lot in commercial work, certain wastes like a urinal need to be packed and poured to the point of dilusion. Like I said usually I'm just pouring a manhoff pvc adapter or something. 
I dont know, Im not trying to knock anyone, but I kindof think its something a plumber know how to do properly, and it seems like there is a lot of different versions of proper. I do realize though that in many areas its not done at all, or plumbers get into "niches" where they never do it, and don't care to learn. The next hubbed cast iron fitting I rip out some where Is coming home with me so I can attempt an upside down pour on it! :blink: I will definately get this on video when I do it...Also want to modify one of my older caulking irons so I can melt my initials into a joint when im done...


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## plumbcrazy81 (Jun 17, 2012)

No You can use gaskets in mass, and I would use them where I could. Im more just asking about the "dying art" rather than the quickest/easiest/most efficient way.


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## Plumber patt (Jan 26, 2011)

I see what you are saying. In Canada at trade school they didnt even touch on it, at my college there was an old project called "antique plumbers tools" and it had a bunch of old lead tools on it


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

Plumber patt said:


> I see what you are saying. In Canada at trade school they didnt even touch on it, at my college there was an old project called "antique plumbers tools" and it had a bunch of old lead tools on it


Soon those tools will include a torch and solder.


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## Plumber patt (Jan 26, 2011)

You could not be more right!


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I wait until there is a pinkish tinge to the ladle. My trick is to use a little piece of cardboard to scrape the dross off, and a piece of wood to feel the bottom of the ladle. The trick is to pour fast, one of my buddies works for one of the biggest plumbing shops in Chicago and lead and oakum is second nature to him. He and his coworkers make their own lead hammers, out of rebar and popcans, and running ropes out of garden hose.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

I have poured no more than (12) lead and oakum joints in my life. It was usually doing service work, (1) was a cast iron closet flange in new construction. So I am not an expert in lead joints. I was taught however, that it's not the lead that seals the joint, it's the oakum.


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## plumbcrazy81 (Jun 17, 2012)

422 plumber said:


> I wait until there is a pinkish tinge to the ladle. My trick is to use a little piece of cardboard to scrape the dross off, and a piece of wood to feel the bottom of the ladle. The trick is to pour fast, one of my buddies works for one of the biggest plumbing shops in Chicago and lead and oakum is second nature to him. He and his coworkers make their own lead hammers, out of rebar and popcans, and running ropes out of garden hose.


Funny you mention the rebar/pop can lead hammer...Last year I did a 6 month run at a commercial plumbing company that did mostly state jobs here in Mass.
6 Months of prevailing wage...:thumbup: Anyway, the owner of the company, wicked nice older guy, real easy to talk to, nicest boss I ever had, well he was missing a third of one of his fingers from one of his employees "hitting the wrong nail" with one of those hammers (Back when the owner worked in the field and the guy who did it still worked there 10-15 years later!). Except these guys used coffee cans not soda cans. I dont think they used them for anything to do with running lead joints, I think they used them for slamming Cast Iron pipe into push gaskets when they couldnt use a bar and chain. How could you use a garden hose for a joint runner, wont it just melt. Ive heard of using plumbers putty, and just regular rope soaked in oil but never a garden hose. :blink:


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

You do not want the lead too hot, or it will develop cracks.
Put a piece of newspaper in the molten lead. If it ignites, it is too hot.


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## Tim`s Plumbing (Jan 17, 2012)

I `m in Mass and have poured more joints then I can count. I say chances are that you poured the joint to slowly. Also if it was out side in the cold weather that doesn`t help if the cast was very cold when it is cold you have to pour the joint as fast as posiable.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

They also have coffee can hammers, but usually there is just one per gangbox. The lead hammers are used to pound on the pipe or fittings to plumb or square them up. They make sets on the ground, then get a couple guys to walk them up ladders and set them in the hangers, etc. Then before the final joints are poured, they use the lead hammers for any "tweaks"


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

multi colors or rainbow as you said is perfect temp. Though it may be too hot for PVC and will melt the PVC. We do a ton of broken cast iron flanges with lead. I've used putty as a running rope on 1 horizontal joint. I use a putty knife to scrape the lead.

I can't imagine pouring too slow with 1 joint I would think it has cooled too long prior to pouring the lead that left a gap.


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## kiddplum (Feb 7, 2010)

*pouring lead joints*

sounds like the runner might have got pushed into the hub at the bottom?
never had a problem like that still pour lead joints on occasion
replacing cast iron flanges etc and I still prefer to transition from cast to pvc by leading in a short piece of iron into an existing hub and then using a no hub coupling to attach my pvc
since I usually am only doing 1 joint I heat the lead right in the ladle I use an A 32 tip wait for the purple hue to come over the top and pour
slag is not a problem as I use all my old lead heat it in a lead pot clean off the slag and take a ladle full out and let it cool ready to go for me


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

plumbcrazy81 said:


> Funny you mention the rebar/pop can lead hammer... Except these guys used coffee cans not soda cans. I dont think they used them for anything to do with running lead joints, I think they used them for slamming Cast Iron pipe into push gaskets when they couldnt use a bar and chain. How could you use a garden hose for a joint runner, wont it just melt. Ive heard of using plumbers putty, and just regular rope soaked in oil but never a garden hose. :blink:


422 is right, lead hammers were first used to tweek pipes after the pour. So, when gaskets came along they had a ready made tool that could persuade the pipe into the gasket with a little grease (my recollection is that Crisco was the brand of choise) without breaking anything. Instead of rebar which wasn't always handy, many plumbers used a scrap piece of 3/4" gal pipe. 

I also recall cabinet hangers filling a tennis ball with lead, attaching a 1/4"x2' rod while still molten, placing a 3/8" piece of aluminum tubing aprox. 1/2" shorter than the rod over this. Recoil the rod, insert a 16p nail, slide the rod with force and you've got a nailer that would not be displaced until the cordless drill and screws came on the scene.


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## plumber101us (Feb 25, 2013)

I havent poured lead in years but when i did i made sure the slag was skimmed off the top and i have used a screwdriver myself to test it as my uncle taught me to and he was a master


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## Jrockstangs (Mar 19, 2013)

My Procedure is as follows:
use a few pieces of oakum, braid them together and pack joint tightly leaving about a 1" gap between the top of the oakum and the top of the hub. Wrap my running rope and get it setup, all the while my lead is heating in my laddle. I usually will take a screwdriver to the lead and stir it around to make sure there are no "cold" spots in the lead before pouring, if it comes out clean then i start pouring. I do know moisture and molten lead do not go well together by any means... so be careful. This is just the way I do it and have had good luck with it


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

I have never had to pour lead before. I might just pick up the stuff to do it and play with it so ill be able to say I have. Not much need for it in service work in DFW.


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

johntheplumber said:


> I have never had to pour lead before. I might just pick up the stuff to do it and play with it so ill be able to say I have. Not much need for it in service work in DFW.


Not alot but on cast iron flanges I always lead a new one in instead of using the PVC mechanical flange. Most of my lead though gets used for sinkers for Ocean fishing, making buck tails for blue fish, and anchors for my duck decoys.

I used to save all the lead drain piping I removed from houses, and I probably should of saved all the lead paint chips I found instead of eating them. :blink:


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## huskyevert (Mar 9, 2012)

I also was taught to use a screwdriver to skim the dross and check for unmelted chunks. I was told to heat the screwdriver up before dipping it into the lead to avoid making the molten lead "pop". Spent the first year of my apprenticeship renovating a 100 year old 9 story apartment building and probably leaded 50-75 wc flanges. since then I might do one a year. I don't even know how a running rope works. I've only ever leaded flanges.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

I haven't poured lead since I was an apprentice, that I can remember. That was in Michigan, where the weather is often wet and we carried a small oil can with a pump lever to squirt some into the joint to keep it from flashing if there was water in it.

These days, I have salvaged lead, oakum, ladles and caulking tools, so I could probably make a joint if I wanted to. 

I would think that heating it in a ladle might mean that it would cool quickly. I don't remember doing that very often, but that was back in the days when we had big propane burner torches and they put out a pretty big flame. Our lead furnace was also a similar burner set into a frame with a steel concentrator around it.


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

A mapp gas torch in a ladle for a 4" hub works fine. Just level the ladle and heat it from the top down. Use your "seasoned" runner, and fill in the little space where the spring clamp squeezes the runner with a bit of oakum. Let the joint cool down before caulking.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Do what say. Seasoned ?? Like with salt ?? Say again. Y'all Yankees need to rember we don't pour lead down here. I'd like to learn tho


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

Soak the joint runner in oil for a week so the lead doesn't stick to the rope.
TX, congrats on the bun in the oven.


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

Can someone post step by step pics?


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Thanks bro. I've Never seen a running rope. I have a packing tool and ladle jaded down to me by my j man and poured a few mop basin drains. But no one here pours cast joint it no hub or Ty seals


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

johntheplumber said:


> Can someone post step by step pics?


You tube has some I bet. Ther vids of wiping lead joints I've demoed lead pipe befor


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## mtfallsmikey (Jan 11, 2010)

Started doing them back in the 60's. The screwdriver trick works, Dad heated the lead up till the surface started turning steel-bluish in color. Still have all of my irons left over, only 1 joint runner left.


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## plumber101us (Feb 25, 2013)

still have all my uncles lead tools including a lead furnace, plus an orangeburg lathe, now the lathe belongs in a museum for sure


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## Plumborg (Feb 21, 2013)

Hi guys

I work for one of the largest commercial outfits in Chicago and I spent quite a bit of time on a new high rise and other rehabs in Chicago. I definitely dont know everything about lead work but am no stranger to it.

We make a lead hammer out of a piece of 10"-15" long rebar, 3/4" galv, and or anything of the like and a 4-5 inch piece of 2 inch cast iron pipe. 
Step 1) stick rebar into pipe 
step 2) Pour a small amount of lead into pipe around rebar and let cool for a minute to create "cap"
step 3) pour rest of lead in to fill up 2" pipe
step 4) break of piece of cast iron with a hammer

There you go now you have a lead hammer, use it to straighten out pipe that is suspended or vertical. This is pretty much only possible before the joint is caulked though. After the joint is caulked it is pretty much impossible to move the pipe.

Pouring a Joint.

Put the spigot end of pipe you are intending to use into the hub of the fitting or pipe it is going into. Make sure that the spigot is fairly straight in and there is a even amount of space around the spigot in the hub. Use your YARNING IRON (right tool for the right job) to pack first piece of oakum around the spigot in the hub. The oakum needs to be packed in tight but make sure that the spigot of the pipe is still in place and your oakum is not coming through the hub into the fitting. Wrap around and pack the oakum until the piece of oakum is entirely packed into the hub, but remember where you left off because that is exactly where you want to start the next piece of oakum. Continue the packing process until you are about an inch from the top of the hub, then take your PACKING IRON and hammer and pack down the oakum inside the hub. Check to see if the hub needs anymore oakum to make sure that there will be 1" of lead poured into the hub. The oakum should be evenly packed around the in the hub. 

If you are using a lead pot keep the ladle and lead near the pot with the furnace on to keep everything warm and DRY. Moisture inside molten lead will turn to steam and explode. I usually take the ladle and scrape the dirt and crap off the top of the lead when the lead is in liquid form inside the pot. I do this because You dont want impurities in the joint and it also warms the ladle up up. I will also dip the ladle in the lead and rotate it until no more lead sticks to it. That is how I know the lead is ready. If your using just a torch and a ladle the screwdriver trick works well but i also know that when it turns that blueish color its pretty much there. 

In a vertical pour you want to pour in a steady stream not to slowly either. For a horizontal joint we use rubber clamp type runner as opposed to the actual running ropes of yore. You want to put the rubber runner with the gate (where your pouring the lead into) up. I use my packing iron to push the runner really into the joint so the lead wont leak as I pour my joint. Pour the lead the same way into the gate of the runner as you would into a vertical joint. Remove the runner fairly quickly so that it wont melt the runner or the lead wont harden around the fibers of the rope.

Give the lead a few seconds to harden then take your OUTSIDE IRON and hammer then pack it on the four "sides" or directions on the lead on the outside of the joint first then go all the way around the hub. Do the same on the inside of the hub on the lead with the INSIDE IRON and hammer. Use a cold chisel to remove what is left over from the gate of the pour.

There you go, obviously in the field nothing goes as planned and you usually only have your packing and yarning iron, sometimes a yarning Iron is a luxury. any questions just ask I would love to help.


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## Kevan (Jul 5, 2010)

I poured a joint in a plumbing class in 1991. That was my last one, but I did a fine job. :smartass:


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