# Camera Monitors - and insane pricing



## Tounces

Just in a related note to another thread -

Does anyone have any idea why the price of monitors for sewer camera's is so insanely high? Most seem to range around $2000-2500.

What's so special about these things really? I mean, they're just small crappy TV's so far as I can tell. The one I use looks like a TV that came from the 1950s. 

I know pretty much ANYTHING in the drain cleaning industry costs way more than it logically should, probably due to there being a relatively small market for it. But a monitor is part of a widely used technology.


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## ToUtahNow

Tounces said:


> Just in a related note to another thread -
> 
> Does anyone have any idea why the price of monitors for sewer camera's is so insanely high? Most seem to range around $2000-2500.
> 
> What's so special about these things really? I mean, they're just small crappy TV's so far as I can tell. The one I use looks like a TV that came from the 1950s.
> 
> I know pretty much ANYTHING in the drain cleaning industry costs way more than it logically should, probably due to there being a relatively small market for it. But a monitor is part of a widely used technology.



Boy, you got a lot to learn. With the exception of the cheap garbage, they are a lot more than a "small crappy TV"

Mark


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## Tounces

Sure, but what? Some of them I'm pretty sure are literally a converted TV. 

I mean - what exactly is it they do other than display data coming from the camera? Sure, there may be a few other minor functions...

But then again, a $2000 laptop has VASTLY more capability than any sewer monitor.


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## gear junkie

Just buy a seesnake......you'll only be dissapointed once.


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## sierra2000

I agree with you. These prices are insane for what they really are which is a tv, iPad or smart something packed inside a hard plastic shell. BIG MARKUP on this stuff.
Same goes for a jetter. Think of what kind of car you can buy for $45,000. Nothing we can do though but accept it.


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## ToUtahNow

Tounces said:


> Sure, but what? Some of them I'm pretty sure are literally a converted TV.
> 
> I mean - what exactly is it they do other than display data coming from the camera? Sure, there may be a few other minor functions...
> 
> But then again, a $2000 laptop has VASTLY more capability than any sewer monitor.


First you have to look at how many smart TVs or laptops are sold each year versus a monitor. Now explain to me how you are going to control how bright your camera light is using your "small crappy TV". Oh that's right your camera light won't work with your "small crappy TV" because you won't be able to power the light. Once you find the problem without a light on the camera (won't happen) how are you going to locate in since your "small crappy TV" does not have a transmitter built in. Now throw your "small crappy TV" in the back of a pickup truck and see how long it last.

Mark


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## ToUtahNow

...by the way, now factor in the inspection software for writing reports and the ability to record your inspections.

There are some cheaper monitors that guys build on Pelican cases bit they have there own problems.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ridgid-Styl...831?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c6d95f7a7

Mark


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## SchmitzPlumbing

i can buy a color tv and camera for ice fishing from vexilar for $300 that controls the light and is awesome. you are right. they are screwing us on the sewer end of the camera.


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## ToUtahNow

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> i can buy a color tv and camera for ice fishing from vexilar for $300 that controls the light and is awesome. you are right. they are screwing us on the sewer end of the camera.



...is that what you use for sewer inspections?

Mark


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## gear junkie

Here's the real question. What small crappy TV has the potential to make you 10k in one day?


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## ToUtahNow

gear junkie said:


> Here's the real question. What small crappy TV has the potential to make you 10k in one day?


Wow Ben, you are good. I get $250 for my camera and $250 for my locator per day. On a 12 hour day at $325 per hour we make $4,400.00 and do around 20 inspections. Of course most days are shorter than that.

Mark


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## gear junkie

Thanks Mark but I'm referring to the work that leads from inspection work, such as a sewer replacement. I inspected a lateral the other day and had continuous issues under the street.....to many for pipe patch and lining wouldn't be an option. I asked the H/O later what the bill came to for replacing the lateral to include under the 30' under the street........17k.


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## 4Aces Plumbing

The price sucks... But if they didn't cost that much most GC's would have one and some home owners. Then where would we be?


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## 4Aces Plumbing

Hey Tounces, not quite apples to apples comparison, but wouldn't you rather go back to before Sharkbites, when pex crimping tools cost $600 and were not on the shelf in every home depot? Careful what you wish for sir!


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## ToUtahNow

gear junkie said:


> Thanks Mark but I'm referring to the work that leads from inspection work, such as a sewer replacement. I inspected a lateral the other day and had continuous issues under the street.....to many for pipe patch and lining wouldn't be an option. I asked the H/O later what the bill came to for replacing the lateral to include under the 30' under the street........17k.


I just did the math on that project. I used my Mini, my ToolBox monitor and my Navitrack, which I had already owned for a couple of years. We bill out over $180,000 for everything but around $44,000 for the sewer inspections and locates. Not bad for a $11,000 investment made years earlier. Now 8 years later I am still using the same equipment.

Mark


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## Drain Pro

My camera was 12500. Overpriced? Perhaps. It paid for itself in 8 months. Now I'd call that a great investment.


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## Redwood

Tounces said:


> Does anyone have any idea why the price of monitors for sewer camera's is so insanely high? Most seem to range around $2000-2500.
> 
> What's so special about these things really? I mean, they're just small crappy TV's so far as I can tell. The one I use looks like a TV that came from the 1950s.
> 
> I know pretty much ANYTHING in the drain cleaning industry costs way more than it logically should, probably due to there being a relatively small market for it. But a monitor is part of a widely used technology.





Tounces said:


> Sure, but what? Some of them I'm pretty sure are literally a converted TV.
> 
> I mean - what exactly is it they do other than display data coming from the camera? Sure, there may be a few other minor functions...
> 
> But then again, a $2000 laptop has VASTLY more capability than any sewer monitor.





sierra2000 said:


> I agree with you. These prices are insane for what they really are which is a tv, iPad or smart something packed inside a hard plastic shell. BIG MARKUP on this stuff.





SchmitzPlumbing said:


> i can buy a color tv and camera for ice fishing from vexilar for $300 that controls the light and is awesome. you are right. they are screwing us on the sewer end of the camera.





4Aces Plumbing said:


> Hey Tounces, not quite apples to apples comparison, but wouldn't you rather go back to before Sharkbites, when pex crimping tools cost $600 and were not on the shelf in every home depot? Careful what you wish for sir!


No Doubt they are for the most part crappy TV's with a few added functions for camera light control, sonde, etc...

They lagged behind greatly coming into digital recording I recall doing surgery on my See-Snake monitor when the VHS recorder failed and I wanted to make DVD recordings and use flash memory sticks... An option Ridgid wasn't offering yet...:laughing:

I was editing the video files and making presentation reports on sewer repairs long before they had anything like it. I was laughing when they started selling space on Ridgid's server to use for sharing files with customers. What was that Ridgid Connect or something like that? (I Forget) Why was I going to pay for what I was already doing for free with Google...:laughing:

Schmitz, I use a Marcum VS485C for my fishing camera... Wow! What a picture! :thumbup:

I guess there is something to be said for the high cost of specialized equipment and how it keeps the layman from buying equipment and doing it themselves. It tends to keep the DIY brain surgery to a minimum...:laughing:

The equipment will make you lots of money for sure, but yea...
Is it a reason to pay substantially higher amounts for simple technology that lags behind in development?:no:

If you'll pardon me I've got to head off to the P&R Forum and read some posts bytching about the high cost of healthcare, medical equipment, prescription drugs, and unnecessary batteries of tests doctors perform, drive up the cost of health insurance...


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## Hoosier Plumber

It would be a reasonable assumption that it takes a bit more to manufacter the equipment for sewer inspections. 

With that being said I'd like to echo what others have said. 

Bought a 10,000 Ridgid set up on a loan. Paid it off in 8 months and wasn't really trying that hard to sell sewer replacements. For some reason I was hesistant to offer the service because I was afraid to scratch my shiny new toy. :laughing:

So bought it early last year, got it paid off in 8 months. Have sold two sewer jobs this month, again without trying, oh and have two more pending estimates. 

At that rate I would buy a new camera every year, btu.............. The equipment holds up to the abuse its given and produces for who knows how many years. Allowing a contractor to make tens or maybe even hundreds of thousands of dollars. Let's look at it on the low side. 

10,000 investment = 50,000.00 revenue If I'm calculating it right that is a 500% return on the investment. What else could you do with your money and get that kind of return. Hell 50% would be phenomenal. Of course I would say that you could make much more, but let's figure low because of repair, maintence, time to make revenue, etc.... 

Now let's ask the obvious question. Why is sewer inspection equipment priced so insanley low? 

The answer might be manufacturers know you wouldn't pay more.


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## Redwood

Hoosier Plumber said:


> It would be a reasonable assumption that it takes a bit more to manufacter the equipment for sewer inspections.


Hardly... With the possible exception of crawlers the sewer inspection equipment is hardly anything special...

I wonder how well a sewer camera would last being used at 75' depths in saltwater bouncing off a rock or, getting tangled on a wreck?:laughing::no:

Until the last couple of years our push rod cameras were downright neanderthalic...

Probably because the manufacturers figured we'd just throw it in the back of a van then toss a water heater on top of it, and that we wouldn't know how to use the technology. I've seen the report software and remained unimpressed as it has very limited function keeping it so easy a caveman could do it...

To this day I still prefer my doctored monitor and processing the video and report on a laptop...


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## Hoosier Plumber

I should have clarified that I was talking about sewer equipment versus a normal tv and the like.


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## saysflushable

I;m a free market kind of guy. They charge what they can get. Good for them. 

What is a sore spot for me was the root ranger. $40 for a pressure washer nozzel and $300and something for a U shaped peice of stainless steel.


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## AssTyme

saysflushable said:


> I;m a free market kind of guy. They charge what they can get. Good for them.
> 
> What is a sore spot for me was the root ranger. $40 for a pressure washer nozzel and $300and something for a U shaped peice of stainless steel.




You also have to ask yourself, if someone could sell an equal quality tool for less money then why aren't they ???


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## ToUtahNow

AssTyme said:


> You also have to ask yourself, if someone could sell an equal quality tool for less money then why aren't they ???


I believe this come from Australia. I wounder if the fact that the guys over there are paying double and triple what we pay here for Ridgid has anything to do with it. Import taxes and all.

Mark


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## gear junkie

saysflushable said:


> I;m a free market kind of guy. They charge what they can get. Good for them.
> 
> What is a sore spot for me was the root ranger. $40 for a pressure washer nozzel and $300and something for a U shaped peice of stainless steel.


Actually I don't care the cost on this.. The root ranger could cost 1k and I'd still buy another one it works so well. Plus it's half of any other root cutting nozzle.


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## justme

gear junkie said:


> Actually I don't care the cost on this.. The root ranger could cost 1k and I'd still buy another one it works so well. Plus it's half of any other root cutting nozzle.


Gear, how well does the root ranger work on grease lines ? Or would you recommend another head for that?


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## gear junkie

Keep in mind I'm on a cart jetter so this only helps the smaller jetter guys. I like to use a 3/8 warthog on grease which is fairly easy to cut through. Send the camera in and use the root ranger to hit any stubborn hard spots. But yeah....root ranger works great on hard grease. Bout the only thing it doesn't do well is leave a clean, uniform appearance on the pipe wall. But I consider a "must have" nozzle.


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## justme

The head we have been using is the one that came with the jetter . Its a 1/2 penetrator nozzle one head forward and 6 jets behind. It gets the job done but I know theres better heads out there. I might pick up a root ranger and put her to work.


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## gear junkie

what size jetter you have?


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## justme

Spartan soldier


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## gear junkie

Aw hell man.....get a warthog and be done with it. Thats a big jetter right there. You probably dont need a root ranger with your specs


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## justme

I'll check into a warthog.


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## saysflushable

gear junkie said:


> Actually I don't care the cost on this.. The root ranger could cost 1k and I'd still buy another one it works so well. Plus it's half of any other root cutting nozzle.


  If I need another one I;m going to call a guy I know in california and have him build 1 for me LOL. seriously though I think I ould build one out of stainless steal nipples and fittings and weld them so they don;t come loose, although I heard hand tight with no pipe dope and they won;t come loose either


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## Redwood

I wonder what a one forward, 3 back, Root Ranger would be like for those of us with big boy jetters...

Not having to punch a hole through roots, it will cut its own way, no need to turn....

Hmmmm... I kinda like the idea
I'll have to pick up 4 of the 4.5 gpm pressure washer nozzles and talk to my machinist buddy...
I see a beastly nozzle right there...


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## Redwood

saysflushable said:


> Weld them so they don't come loose, although I heard hand tight with no pipe dope and they won't come loose either


Have you ever tried to unscrew a fitting that had 4,000 psi on it?
They don't turn very easy...:no:


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## Tounces

Okay - in response to the posts about the fact Camera's make a lot of money - I get that.

But in all honestly, a SHOVEL can make you a lot of money too, but that doesn't mean you should pay $1000 for one. The actual cost of manufacturing such equipment should be a consideration in the price of it. I imagine with a fairly small amount of electrical know-how it wouldn't be that hard to make your own monitor that will control the light and all.

The reality to the price is the lack of competition. There really just aren't all that many companies out there that make sewer camera's and monitors that hook up to them. "Free Market" is all about competition - and in this case, there just isn't hardly any.


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## ToUtahNow

Tounces said:


> Okay - in response to the posts about the fact Camera's make a lot of money - I get that.
> 
> But in all honestly, a SHOVEL can make you a lot of money too, but that doesn't mean you should pay $1000 for one. The actual cost of manufacturing such equipment should be a consideration in the price of it. I imagine with a fairly small amount of electrical know-how it wouldn't be that hard to make your own monitor that will control the light and all.
> 
> The reality to the price is the lack of competition. There really just aren't all that many companies out there that make sewer camera's and monitors that hook up to them. "Free Market" is all about competition - and in this case, there just isn't hardly any.


Sports digging can make you money but lacks a professional ability to know when, where and why to dig.

Mark


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## plbgbiz

I suppose if Ridgid had a real apples-to-apples competitor for the small format cameras...
I suppose if Ridgid had a real apples-to-apples competitor for the Root Ranger...

But they don't.


After all the diagnostic calls, after all the free estimates, after all the local startups, after all the One-Man-Sops, after all the sidejobbers, what if Roto-Rooter really was the ONLY company in all of the United States that could successfully clean out a sewer impacted with roots? What if they were the ONLY company in all of the United States that could actually replace a residential building sewer?

What do you suppose their rates would be?

Just sayin'....the knife of capitalism cuts both ways.


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## DesertOkie

Tounces said:


> Okay - in response to the posts about the fact Camera's make a lot of money - I get that.
> 
> But in all honestly, a SHOVEL can make you a lot of money too, but that doesn't mean you should pay $1000 for one. The actual cost of manufacturing such equipment should be a consideration in the price of it. I imagine with a fairly small amount of electrical know-how it wouldn't be that hard to make your own monitor that will control the light and all.
> 
> The reality to the price is the lack of competition. There really just aren't all that many companies out there that make sewer camera's and monitors that hook up to them. "Free Market" is all about competition - and in this case, there just isn't hardly any.


They sell Ridgid compatible monitor setups on e-bay. I made my set up for less that a grand. Find an old ridgid "powerpack" from the old vcr style (heavy as ****) packs. Pull out the power pack and buy a old TV from good will a few cables and your in business.

After awhile you will see why all those other guys pay big money for the CS6. 

There are whole sewer camera systems on ebay for 600. You get what you pay for.


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## dhal22

Tounces said:


> Okay - in response to the posts about the fact Camera's make a lot of money - I get that.
> 
> But in all honestly, a SHOVEL can make you a lot of money too, but that doesn't mean you should pay $1000 for one. The actual cost of manufacturing such equipment should be a consideration in the price of it. I imagine with a fairly small amount of electrical know-how it wouldn't be that hard to make your own monitor that will control the light and all.
> 
> The reality to the price is the lack of competition. There really just aren't all that many companies out there that make sewer camera's and monitors that hook up to them. "Free Market" is all about competition - and in this case, there just isn't hardly any.



I have a job, a unique job. One that requires a shovel. Not just any shovel but one that costs me $1000. Of course a unique job that needs my considerable experience and skills isn't going to be done cheaply. Add in a specialty tool (camera, whoops, a shovel) and I'm going to charge a premium. If the customer doesn't like my price, he can go spend a $1000 on his own shovel.

Furthermore, I'm going to continue to use this shovel on a weekly basis, shoveling in premium fees for years. In fact, I think the current shovel I use has paid for itself 100 times over.

If my shovel was to need maintenance (it hasn't) I can call my shovel manufacturer's rep and he will come and pick mine up and leave me a loaner shovel while mine is being repaired.

Yes, some shovels are expensive. If the cost is too much you can always hire my shovel and I to do your digging. Of course I will charge you a premium.

David


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## Redwood

dhal22 said:


> If my shovel was to need maintenance (it hasn't) I can call my shovel manufacturer's rep and he will come and pick mine up and leave me a loaner shovel while mine is being repaired.


Wow!
Wish we had a rep like that...:yes:


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## saysflushable

I like many of you have spent 1000;s on drain cleaning equipement. After all that spent money I found the best machine for most of my mains costs only about $350 plus cable. I have tried a quite a few styles, but the best I found for was only $350. I;m glad it wasn;t marketed to drain cleaners because it might have cost $2000 or more, but it would still be worth every penny.

sometimes you get what you pay for and sometimes you pay to much for what you get. but if you need it you need it.


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## Drain Pro

What has to be considered is all the hours that go into developing these cameras. I'm sure it costs a ton of money to bring a new SeeSnake concept to reality. These development costs need to be recouped. So it's not all about how much it costs to manufacture the physical product, but all the man hours that engineers and software developers spend to make these products a reality.


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## saysflushable

Drain Pro said:


> What has to be considered is all the hours that go into developing these cameras. I'm sure it costs a ton of money to bring a new SeeSnake concept to reality. These development costs need to be recouped. So it's not all about how much it costs to manufacture the physical product, but all the man hours that engineers and software developers spend to make these products a reality.


 I 100% agree, but mostly what it comes down to is what you can charge for it and that is fine by me,


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## gear junkie

You know I kinda feel your thought on camera cost is similar to a homeowner that might call a plumber out to do a simple project and gets a bigger then expected......"$225 to rebuild my toilet?! There's only $15 in parts in there! Why so much?"

How would a plumber rationalize that hesitation to a homeowner? Probably the exact same way a sewer camera company....achoo(ridgid).....would rationalize the hesitation of a plumber buying a 8k sewer camera.


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## plumberkc

gear junkie said:


> Thanks Mark but I'm referring to the work that leads from inspection work, such as a sewer replacement. I inspected a lateral the other day and had continuous issues under the street.....to many for pipe patch and lining wouldn't be an option. I asked the H/O later what the bill came to for replacing the lateral to include under the 30' under the street........17k.



The sea snake didn't make that $10,000 in one day. It was the equipment and manpower to take on the big sewer job. That's why there is so much money in it, the little guy not charging enough can't compete.


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## Drain Pro

saysflushable said:


> I 100% agree, but mostly what it comes down to is what you can charge for it and that is fine by me,



And I agree with you. My camera makes me a lot of money, it paid for itself more than several times over since I've owned it (2 years). I'll be buying a second Ridgid system at the pumper show this year.


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## sierra2000

Trounces is right that it doesn't cost the manufactures a lot to make these cameras. The markup comes from the middle man selling them to us. You can't buy any camera directly from the manufacture.


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## Drain Pro

It's ironic that we get all up in arms when someone claims we charge too much, yet we beat up the camera manufacturers for the same thing. They have overhead costs just like us. They're trying to make a profit just like us. If I spend 12500 on a Ridgid system that returns 25 times that, I'd say that's a fair deal.


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## Unclog1776

Redwood said:


> I wonder what a one forward, 3 back, Root Ranger would be like for those of us with big boy jetters... Not having to punch a hole through roots, it will cut its own way, no need to turn.... Hmmmm... I kinda like the idea I'll have to pick up 4 of the 4.5 gpm pressure washer nozzles and talk to my machinist buddy... I see a beastly nozzle right there...


I'll buy it


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## gear junkie

Redwood said:


> I wonder what a one forward, 3 back, Root Ranger would be like for those of us with big boy jetters...
> 
> Not having to punch a hole through roots, it will cut its own way, no need to turn....
> 
> Hmmmm... I kinda like the idea
> I'll have to pick up 4 of the 4.5 gpm pressure washer nozzles and talk to my machinist buddy...
> I see a beastly nozzle right there...


Jetters Edge already makes it.


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## Redwood

gear junkie said:


> Jetters Edge already makes it.


I looked but didn't see it. Do you have a link?


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## gear junkie

Send an email to Bill. Not sure if he showed us a simple prototype or finished product but it was 4r1f all turbo's


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## SchmitzPlumbing

they are expensive, and i still have it on my wish list. i gave away 2 calls today for camera jobs and 1 camera/jetter job last week. what do you charge out for the camera so i can convince myself to buy one? i would love a jetter as well but would buy a camera first.


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## AssTyme

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> they are expensive, and i still have it on my wish list. i gave away 2 calls today for camera jobs and 1 camera/jetter job last week. what do you charge out for the camera so i can convince myself to buy one? i would love a jetter as well but would buy a camera first.




$150.00 is the going rate in the southern part of the state.


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## Unclog1776

Your sewer camera can be a highly trained expert salesman capable of selling maintenance sewer cleaning or high dollar replace/relining jobs without saying a word. 

I won't hijack this thread but you can make tons of money with your camera by not charging a penny to use it.


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## justme

Who would buy the CS6 when you can get the CS10 .


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## justme

justme said:


> Who would buy the CS6 when you can get the CS10 .



CS10 for 3600 dollars, worth every penny.:yes:


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## gear junkie

justme said:


> Who would buy the CS6 when you can get the CS10 .


This guy. The CS6 does just great for me and with the ram mount, the screen is up close so the screen size is no longer a big deal. It's small easy to carry, battery is good for about 2 solid days of inspecting(depends on sonde use) and it's way cheaper then a CS10. I can think of no reason to buy a CS10 in it's place. Please tell me what I'm missing.


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## justme

Much bigger screen lol, would be about it. Maybe I need glasses but I can't see that small ass screen. But after you transfer it to a computer it wouldn't matter. But I really like having the bigger screen and being able to clearly see what's in the pipe without having to squint. lol


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## justme

Yes the price difference is significant , I can pick up the CS6 for about 1750 but I spent double for the size of the screen.


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## SchmitzPlumbing

unclog, just me, and gear, what is the bill out for the camera?


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## justme

I charge 95 an hour for the camera plus minimum 1 hour for plumber and apprentice. Most of our camera work is done at night on OT with a few hours for the camera plus labor our typical camera job would run around 500- 1000 minimum but we camera very large systems in grocery stores. Gear could give a better idea for residential situations.


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## gear junkie

My average camera inspection for residential with 2 locates is 1 hour. Doesn't matter if through a cleanout or on a roof.


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## SchmitzPlumbing

gear junkie said:


> My average camera inspection for residential with 2 locates is 1 hour. Doesn't matter if through a cleanout or on a roof.


thanks :blink:


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## dhal22

I charge $275 for the 1st hr. You should be billing $95 just for the plumber.


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## Redwood

Generally we don't charge for our camera...

It is selling work....


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## Drain Pro

300 1st hour, 125 ea additional hour. I'll waive the first hour if it turns into a jet job.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber

$265 first hr. $125 each hour after


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## Tounces

Drain Pro said:


> What has to be considered is all the hours that go into developing these cameras. I'm sure it costs a ton of money to bring a new SeeSnake concept to reality. These development costs need to be recouped. So it's not all about how much it costs to manufacture the physical product, but all the man hours that engineers and software developers spend to make these products a reality.


I can't imagine all that much development goes into monitors though. I mean they're just using an existing product and adding slight modification.


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## Tounces

Drain Pro said:


> It's ironic that we get all up in arms when someone claims we charge too much, yet we beat up the camera manufacturers for the same thing. They have overhead costs just like us. They're trying to make a profit just like us. If I spend 12500 on a Ridgid system that returns 25 times that, I'd say that's a fair deal.


The thing is - in any given area, there's maybe what....20-30 plumbing shops?

Our prices have to be kept relatively low to be competitive.

In Sewer Cameras, there is VERY little competition. So they can make insane profit on every single camera.


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## Best Darn Sewer

saysflushable said:


> I;m a free market kind of guy. They charge what they can get. Good for them.
> 
> What is a sore spot for me was the root ranger. $40 for a pressure washer nozzel and $300and something for a U shaped peice of stainless steel.


The U-shaped wedge is only $5. Its $295 for the RIDGID stamp on it.


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## Cuda

Tounces said:


> I can't imagine all that much development goes into monitors though. I mean they're just using an existing product and adding slight modification.


A lot of development goes into them they are always adding new features as they are not really monitors anymore but are little computers.
And the cost is actually coming down, 4 years ago the Ridgid CS1000 was near 6K now the newest replacement the CS65 is $4300. It has a huge real hardrive and more features for reports that software developers have made.


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## ToUtahNow

The bottom line is, those of us who own them and are making money with them are glad we ponyed up the money. You are always free to buy a cheaper system or build your own. Most who use the cheaper methods will end up with Ridgid in the end.

Mark


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## Drain Pro

Tounces said:


> The thing is - in any given area, there's maybe what....20-30 plumbing shops?
> 
> 
> 
> Our prices have to be kept relatively low to be competitive.
> 
> 
> 
> In Sewer Cameras, there is VERY little competition. So they can make insane profit on every single camera.



Not true at all. There's tons of camera companies. Just very few good and reliable ones. The same is true for sewer and drain companies. I like that great cameras are high priced. It keeps them out of the hands of hacks. I'll be buying a second Ridgid setup this month and it'll pay for itself by years end.


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## dhal22

Drain Pro said:


> Not true at all. There's tons of camera companies. Just very few good and reliable ones. The same is true for sewer and drain companies. I like that great cameras are high priced. It keeps them out of the hands of hacks. I'll be buying a second Ridgid setup this month and it'll pay for itself by years end.


Same here. Planning on adding a 200'er or the 325' reel/camera.


----------



## AssTyme

Cuda said:


> A lot of development goes into them they are always adding new features as they are not really monitors anymore but are little computers.
> And the cost is actually coming down, 4 years ago the Ridgid CS1000 was near 6K now the newest replacement the CS65 is $4300. It has a huge real hardrive and more features for reports that software developers have made.



Why the small screens on these new products 

Nothing like a 10" in your face quality picture to see whats going on.


----------



## ToUtahNow

SeeSnake cameras are amazingly easy yo use.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V-o2T82RhE

Mark


----------



## saysflushable

I just ordered another ridgid scout locator, because my 1st broke and won;t be back for at least 2 weeks. Thats to long without the locator. I have wondered who makes the locators for ridgid and how much they would cost from the manufacturer? The trouble is I never spent time researching when I had the time. so I dropped the money on a great product for the second time, but restassured if I ever find out I can get the scout labeled by somebody else without looking like a marvin the martian little kid toy ray gun for a lot less money then that will be the last ridgid tool I buy!!!!!!!!

Unless I need something else from ridgid, but I will still be complaining


----------



## ToUtahNow

saysflushable said:


> I just ordered another ridgid scout locator, because my 1st broke and won;t be back for at least 2 weeks. Thats to long without the locator. I have wondered who makes the locators for ridgid and how much they would cost from the manufacturer? The trouble is I never spent time researching when I had the time. so I dropped the money on a great product for the second time, but restassured if I ever find out I can get the scout labeled by somebody else without looking like a marvin the martian little kid toy ray gun for a lot less money then that will be the last ridgid tool I buy!!!!!!!!
> 
> Unless I need something else from ridgid, but I will still be complaining


They are made by a company in California and their only client in the last 20-years has been Ridgid. They work together on the R&D. If you are ever invited to see why they are so reliable, you would be amazed.

Mark


----------



## Cuda

AssTyme said:


> Why the small screens on these new products
> 
> Nothing like a 10" in your face quality picture to see whats going on.


Here's how it works for me.... I get older and my eyes say " screw this we need the bigger monitor to see everything"
But the arms and back say " Screw you eyes we have to carry it all day get the lite one!"

And the eyes lose again!


----------



## AssTyme

AssTyme said:


> Why the small screens on these new products
> 
> Nothing like a 10" in your face quality picture to see whats going on.





Woops, CS10 has a 12" not 10" :blink:


----------



## justme

Cuda said:


> Here's how it works for me.... I get older and my eyes say " screw this we need the bigger monitor to see everything"
> But the arms and back say " Screw you eyes we have to carry it all day get the lite one!"
> 
> And the eyes lose again!


Thats what helpas are for lol


----------



## DesertOkie

Cuda said:


> Here's how it works for me.... I get older and my eyes say " screw this we need the bigger monitor to see everything"
> But the arms and back say " Screw you eyes we have to carry it all day get the lite one!"
> 
> And the eyes lose again!


The back says you can burn a DVD and watch it on the big screen at home. :laughing:


----------



## Tounces

Cuda said:


> A lot of development goes into them they are always adding new features as they are not really monitors anymore but are little computers.
> And the cost is actually coming down, 4 years ago the Ridgid CS1000 was near 6K now the newest replacement the CS65 is $4300. It has a huge real hardrive and more features for reports that software developers have made.


You know how sad that is?

A hard drive? Really? That's like a $50 improvement. 

I'm guessing profit margin on these things has to be near 95%.


----------



## Tounces

Drain Pro said:


> Not true at all. There's tons of camera companies. Just very few good and reliable ones. The same is true for sewer and drain companies. I like that great cameras are high priced. It keeps them out of the hands of hacks. I'll be buying a second Ridgid setup this month and it'll pay for itself by years end.


Even if they were only $1000, laymen wouldn't buy them. A camera is pretty useless if you're only using it on one sewer line.

I'm not sure where these tons of Camera companies are though. I'm only seeing a few online.

And besides which - I'm not talking about the sewer camera's. I'm talking about the monitors. Which not only cost a lot, but are like 30 years behind in technology for most of em. The good ones might be like 10 years behind.


----------



## ToUtahNow

Tounces said:


> Even if they were only $1000, laymen wouldn't buy them. A camera is pretty useless if you're only using it on one sewer line.
> 
> I'm not sure where these tons of Camera companies are though. I'm only seeing a few online.
> 
> And besides which - I'm not talking about the sewer camera's. I'm talking about the monitors. Which not only cost a lot, but are like 30 years behind in technology for most of em. The good ones might be like 10 years behind.


I'm convinced a sewer camera is not for you. I would consider finding your competition and see what they would charge you to do your work.

Mark


----------



## gear junkie

Kinda sounds like you have this figured out Tounces. So when do you go into the sewer camera business?


----------



## ToUtahNow

gear junkie said:


> Kinda sounds like you have this figured out Tounces. So when do you go into the sewer camera business?


How many cameras and what type do you have Ben?

How many inspections do you do annually?

Have you calculated what percentage of your business that represents?

Mark


----------



## gear junkie

ToUtahNow said:


> How many cameras and what type do you have Ben?
> *Seesnake full size 325, seesnake mini and seesnake D65S. CS6 monitor, scout locator*
> 
> How many inspections do you do annually? *Lost count but a very conservative number is 7 inspections a week.*
> 
> Have you calculated what percentage of your business that represents? *Being conservative.....around 60-70%.*
> 
> Mark


The biggest thing about the camera is it allows me to verify the quality of my drain cleaning. I do 2 year warranties for my jetting. The before and after videos really help add value to the jetting work.

I charge a 55 equipment fee for the camera, 45 for the locator. I could buy a new camera once a year just off the equipment fee alone.


----------



## gear junkie

Just looked on my Ridgid HQ. Since 4/8/2014, I've done 236 inspections.


----------



## gear junkie

Oh quick story on this morning's inspection. Home sale, being sold "as is". Buyer has there own plumbing company. The plumbing company called an "inspection only" company to come out and inspect the lateral. No full size cleanouts so the other company pulled a toilet. They said the sewer looked really bad and there were huge offsets. 

I found about this when I showed up to inspect this morning but I'm representing the seller. So I go on the roof and inspect through a 2" vent with star guides. Easy peezy. Offsets don't look bad at all and I don't recommend them to be replaced at all. However what the other company missed was a crack in the lateral. 

Guess who's digging 3' and making 1500 to repair a cracked pipe? Not the guy using crappy camera equipment.


----------



## justme

Tounces said:


> You know how sad that is?
> 
> A hard drive? Really? That's like a $50 improvement.
> 
> I'm guessing profit margin on these things has to be near 95%.


Do you understand ANYTHING about R&D or overhead ? If it was as easy as you make it sound then go make a better system and make 95% profit. lol


----------



## saysflushable

ToUtahNow said:


> They are made by a company in California and their only client in the last 20-years has been Ridgid. They work together on the R&D. If you are ever invited to see why they are so reliable, you would be amazed.
> 
> Mark


 That is good to hear, I try not to part with my money to quickly although it does not feel the same and leaves me every chance it gets.

I dont mind spending money for quality but I do mind spending money on a name.


----------



## Drain Pro

Tounces: If the monitors are so far behind in technology and are as simple as you claim, why don't you just make your own? I'm sure you could get like a 70" LED Tv from your local best buy for a fraction of a Ridgid monitor. 😉


----------



## Tounces

Drain Pro said:


> Tounces: If the monitors are so far behind in technology and are as simple as you claim, why don't you just make your own? I'm sure you could get like a 70" LED Tv from your local best buy for a fraction of a Ridgid monitor. 😉


It's likely that wouldn't be too complicated.

I mean, does anyone here have any hard evidence that camera monitors are special in some way?

All I hear are emotional arguments, no hard data.


----------



## ToUtahNow

Tounces said:


> It's likely that wouldn't be too complicated.
> 
> I mean, does anyone here have any hard evidence that camera monitors are special in some way?
> 
> All I hear are emotional arguments, no hard data.


You can't compare consumer electronics with commercial electronics. I still have monitors that have been bouncing around in the back of the truck for 10-years and they are still in good shape. My old shop which I sold has them that are 20-years old. Do that with a consumer TV.

Mark


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## Cuda

Tounces said:


> It's likely that wouldn't be too complicated.
> 
> I mean, does anyone here have any hard evidence that camera monitors are special in some way?
> 
> All I hear are emotional arguments, no hard data.


And in your spare time do you like to poke bears?


----------



## ToUtahNow

Tonce, your in luck!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3_VNzV-6r0

Mark


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## ToUtahNow

and another

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLp9aMWVrvQ


----------



## affordabledrain

DesertOkie said:


> They sell Ridgid compatible monitor setups on e-bay. I made my set up for less that a grand. Find an old ridgid "powerpack" from the old vcr style (heavy as ****) packs. Pull out the power pack and buy a old TV from good will a few cables and your in business.
> 
> After awhile you will see why all those other guys pay big money for the CS6.
> 
> There are whole sewer camera systems on ebay for 600. You get what you pay for.



My tennage nephew did this for me, and for for a science type project for school. 

The difference is amazing. I see why the cost is worth it.

Now if only their was way to cheapen the re termination costs, or frequency


----------



## Drain Pro

Tounces said:


> It's likely that wouldn't be too complicated.
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, does anyone here have any hard evidence that camera monitors are special in some way?
> 
> 
> 
> All I hear are emotional arguments, no hard data.



I have neither the time nor the desire to try and convince you that camera monitors are worth there price tag. If you feel that they are too expensive, then don't buy one. If having unreliable equipment is something you don't mind, then I'd suggest eBay. Plenty of bargain cameras there.


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## dhal22

2 camera jobs today mixed in with 2 jet jobs. Billed $275 on each camera job so 1/12 of an insanely expensive camera in 1 day. So with a lucky streak I could pay for a nice Ridgid camera in less than a month. 

David


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## Drain Pro

ToUtahNow said:


> You can't compare consumer electronics with commercial electronics. I still have monitors that have been bouncing around in the back of the truck for 10-years and they are still in good shape. My old shop which I sold has them that are 20-years old. Do that with a consumer TV.
> 
> 
> 
> Mark



Yep 👍


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## Hoosier Plumber

Drain Pro said:


> I have neither the time nor the desire to try and convince you that camera monitors are worth there price tag. If you feel that they are too expensive, then don't buy one. If having unreliable equipment is something you don't mind, then I'd suggest eBay. Plenty of bargain cameras there.


Worth quoting and seconding. 

Emotional responses?


----------



## Plumbducky

All of you guys are squabbling about the cost. Long term they hold up. 

I am still trying to get in touch with the local rep for Ridgid,to demo some cameras and monitors in real word applications.

Will let you all on now what I find out.


----------



## saysflushable

I think Tounces is wise to ask the question. He may not like the answer but it is still a good question.

Like I said my absolute best drain machine for most of the mains I run was only $350 plus cable, should I have paid a sewer machine company more because of all there R&D?

who wont buy a ridigid sparten or general jetter because they can get a cheeper pressure washer for way less? 

It never hurts to ask why is this more money and is it worth it.


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## dhal22

Hoosier Plumber said:


> Worth quoting and seconding.
> 
> Emotional responses?



Correct. Is that a 3rd?

David


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## saysflushable

Let me also say there are times you flat out get what you pay for. I have 2 cameras neither is ridgid 1 was a pile of junk and a waste of money, The other is pretty good but has its troubles I still use it after 8 years . I think my money would have been better spent on a ridgid system.


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## Tounces

dhal22 said:


> Correct. Is that a 3rd?
> 
> David


In other words, no solid reasons. Nothing that makes Camera monitors in any way different than just a regular TV, other than a few adapters.

I get that a Camera makes money. That's well understood.


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## ToUtahNow

Tounces said:


> In other words, no solid reasons. Nothing that makes Camera monitors in any way different than just a regular TV, other than a few adapters.
> 
> I get that a Camera makes money. That's well understood.


LOL, are you serious? Your questions have been answered to a point where this is beyond ridiculous. If you don't understand or refuse to listen, no one will be able to help you.

Mark


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## Best Darn Sewer

If you read other posts and questions by Tounces you will see that he primarily enjoys being the devils advocate but never in a very productive way. All he wants to do is argue, not learn. He continuously looks for holes in arguments that aren't there and then claims answers for his questions given aren't valid because he refuses to live in reality. That's fine, I won't engage with those not willing to accept that they may not know everything. If y'all want to continue with a pointless discussion with him, be my guest, but IMHO, its a waste of time. 

Here's my answer to why use a Ridgid camera and monitor set up that costs $9000 instead of building your own: because my dumbass accidentally let mine roll off a single story roof...twice on the same day....and you know what? It still works perfectly. I did have to straighten the hood on the CS10 monitor but not one issue has resulted from my stupidity. That's why they get $4500 for a monitor & $4500 for the reel, because they hold up to the abuse we put them thru and continue to work for many years...though I highly recommend NOT letting yours roll off a roof. That made me sick to my stomach to watch. I only had it one month when I did that.


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## saysflushable

Best Darn Sewer;540649
Here's my answer to why use a Ridgid camera and monitor set up that costs $9000 instead of building your own: because my dumbass accidentally let mine roll off a single story roof...twice on the same day....and you know what? It still works perfectly. I did have to straighten the hood on the CS10 monitor but not one issue has resulted from my stupidity. That's why they get $4500 for a monitor & $4500 for the reel said:


> Now that is a the best answer so far, my nonridgid camera won,t do that.


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## dhal22

Tounces said:


> In other words, no solid reasons. Nothing that makes Camera monitors in any way different than just a regular TV, other than a few adapters.
> 
> I get that a Camera makes money. That's well understood.


How solid is another camera job today and another scheduled in the morning? That's $1100 in 3 days. 

David


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## Cuda

I will just add that if sewer camera monitor packages where cheap then any handyman or landscaper would have one and then prices for the work would go down. I get paid what I get paid partially because I have the expensive equipment to do the task that is needed and I charge in turn to pay for the expensive equipment. So you can't have it both ways.


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## dhal22

Mr home owner, unfortunately I have to charge a premium for this insanely expensive camera. Thank you for understanding. Furthermore the camera shows a 10' of pipe belly and a separated pipe, see here?

At 8' deep you're looking at about $3500 to do the repair...... Thank you, I will schedule the job for next week. Yes, that is correct, you paid me $275 to find work. 

David


----------



## ToUtahNow

dhal22 said:


> Mr home owner, unfortunately I have to charge a premium for this insanely expensive camera. Thank you for understanding. Furthermore the camera shows a 10' of pipe belly and a separated pipe, see here?
> 
> At 8' deep you're looking at about $3500 to do the repair...... Thank you, I will schedule the job for next week. Yes, that is correct, you paid me $275 to find work.
> 
> David



...and that is what makes you a PRO!

Mark


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## dhal22

ToUtahNow said:


> ...and that is what makes you a PRO!
> 
> Mark


Nothing like having excess cash in the bank continuously.


----------



## Tounces

I really hope that the sum of our abilities isn't simply the fact we own equipment. I would like to think that my ability with a camera would still exceed that of some handyman who owns one. I know a homeowner can rent a snake at Hertz or something, but I'll be damned if he can cable a drain as well as I can.

And I think that, lacking a reduction in cost, at least we could see improvements more often. 

Several have mentioned Research and Development cost, except, how much R+D are they putting into products that change maybe every decade or two? And only by using existing technology? Even our Drain-cleaning equipment has remained the same for a long time. 

I feel like the people who design drain cleaning tools are much like many drain cleaners I've met....stagnant and never changing.


----------



## ToUtahNow

Tounces said:


> I really hope that the sum of our abilities isn't simply the fact we own equipment. I would like to think that my ability with a camera would still exceed that of some handyman who owns one. I know a homeowner can rent a snake at Hertz or something, but I'll be damned if he can cable a drain as well as I can.
> 
> And I think that, lacking a reduction in cost, at least we could see improvements more often.
> 
> Several have mentioned Research and Development cost, except, how much R+D are they putting into products that change maybe every decade or two? And only by using existing technology? Even our Drain-cleaning equipment has remained the same for a long time.
> 
> I feel like the people who design drain cleaning tools are much like many drain cleaners I've met....stagnant and never changing.


You should totally steer clear from any technology. 

Because you have no frame of reference let me give you an example. You have a 200' sewer to dig which is up to 8' deep. Your competition comes in with a new Cat 303C and digs it in an afternoon. You dig the job next door but you have to cancel the next couple of weeks worth of work because all you have is an old rusty hand shovel.

Now granted, your competition did a much better job, was a lot more professional, made more money and in much less time but look at how much money you saved by using your shovel.

Mark


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## Hillside

Wanna buy my old sreco camera and tv with built in vhs recorder? It has a tape on sonde also and a sreco locator that shows numbers only


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## dhal22

So I'm in the market for a longer camera setup. Occasionally I need more than a 100'. Plus trying to get to 3 service vans we're going to need more than 1 camera. I like the Ridgid rm200 camera and the cs65 monitor ( both about $11,000). They appear to be light years more advanced than Hillside's Sreco camera and locator. 

Hillside, how about you let the Ridgid rep borrow that setup and let tounces compare?

David


----------



## Roto-Rooter

I am not sure about R&D. I am still using the same sewer machine Dad started with in 1952. Still better than anything else I have seen even the new one RR makes. Cameras = Using a Gator Cam and had it for about 7 years or so. Seems different parts of the country different equipment. Makes the world go round


----------



## Drain Pro

Tounces said:


> I really hope that the sum of our abilities isn't simply the fact we own equipment. I would like to think that my ability with a camera would still exceed that of some handyman who owns one. I know a homeowner can rent a snake at Hertz or something, but I'll be damned if he can cable a drain as well as I can.
> 
> And I think that, lacking a reduction in cost, at least we could see improvements more often.
> 
> Several have mentioned Research and Development cost, except, how much R+D are they putting into products that change maybe every decade or two? And only by using existing technology? Even our Drain-cleaning equipment has remained the same for a long time.
> 
> I feel like the people who design drain cleaning tools are much like many drain cleaners I've met....stagnant and never changing.




Stagnant and never changing? So here you are, our brave savior, leading us into a low cost equipment future full of possibilities. Ass Clown.


----------



## justme

jetter anyone


----------



## gear junkie

Roto-Rooter said:


> *I am not sure about R&D.* I am still using the same sewer machine Dad started with in 1952. Still better than anything else I have seen even the new one RR makes. Cameras = Using a Gator Cam and had it for about 7 years or so. Seems different parts of the country different equipment. Makes the world go round


I never thought much of R&D until I built my jetter. I spent probably 2 solid weeks building it to it's final configuration. Now I know I could build the same thing in about 2 days. But anyway...those 2 weeks is me building it with no pay. Same as any new product on the market. At the end the final price has to include all that time spent making and designing it. 

And not to pick on your comments but they remind me of a personal experience. I like my office chair......but one day was in staples and sat in a temperpedic lazy boy office chair. That thing was so nice but I didn't buy it. So I came home and to this day, every time I sit down in my office chair, I hate it. I wish I never sat in the lazy boy chair otherwise I'd still be perfectly content with my office chair.


----------



## sparky

ToUtahNow said:


> I just did the math on that project. I used my Mini, my ToolBox monitor and my Navitrack, which I had already owned for a couple of years. We bill out over $180,000 for everything but around $44,000 for the sewer inspections and locates. Not bad for a $11,000 investment made years earlier. Now 8 years later I am still using the same equipment.
> 
> Mark


Mark are you located in a large city???


----------



## ToUtahNow

sparky said:


> Mark are you located in a large city???


I am in Southern California but I also work in Nevada, Utah and Arizona. I try to stay within 500 miles but I have worked as far away as Atlanta as well.

Mark


----------



## Shoot'N'Plumber

So I just went out to the garage and grabbed a spare t.v. That's been sitting a year or so. I figure id try and save some coin by making my own monitor. Well, needless to say I kinda gave up when I realized I couldn't...
1) control lighting power on camera head
2) reset my counter 
3) search for files of previous jobs
4) view previous jobs
5) turn my sonde off and on
6) input valuable information such as roots, cracks, offsets ect.
7) take a screen shot
8) turn microphone on to voice record
9) plug my unit into some kind of software program on my computer to create professional reports. 
But the good news is other than all that stuff, it seems like a regular t.v. May be similar in that it displays an image of what the camera is pointed at:laughing: perhaps if I chose to be an electrician instead of plumber I would be able to make a tv do all that stuff.


----------



## Tounces

So in other words it's about as advanced as a laptop from the 1990s.

I guess given that I grew up in the age of computers and now build my own I have higher standards for modern technology. 

I'm curious how many people here are 40+ and didn't really grow up in the computer era. 

Awesome that you built a jetter gear junkie. Always good to go around the corporate middle man.


----------



## Tounces

Drain Pro said:


> Stagnant and never changing? So here you are, our brave savior, leading us into a low cost equipment future full of possibilities. Ass Clown.


Yes, Stagnant would describe most of the older plumbers I've worked with. Always doing the same exact thing they have for 30+ years, never once trying anything different or new. 

Which isn't to say they have no useful knowledge to impart. But you won't find any of them selling a Hydrojet for a mainline, because it's too new for them.

Oh, and I don't see why you feel the need to be insulting, I have been civil up to this point. Are you simply more comfortable slinging mud?


----------



## dhal22

Think about how advanced our camera technology is compared to send men into space 50 years ago.


----------



## drs

Tounces said:


> Even if they were only $1000, laymen wouldn't buy them. A camera is pretty useless if you're only using it on one sewer line.
> 
> I'm not sure where these tons of Camera companies are though. I'm only seeing a few online.
> 
> And besides which - I'm not talking about the sewer camera's. I'm talking about the monitors. Which not only cost a lot, but are like 30 years behind in technology for most of em. The good ones might be like 10 years behind.




You are right. Computers have improved so why not monitors? Just keep them simple with less parts and light weight where you can get in and out and you will make money. Do expect any piece of equipment to last if you treat like like garbage, run it over and hit it with a camera. I got a Mytana set up and the camera heads where not made for sewer work. I have sent back mine many times to get fixed and the fixing is not done. I am working on getting a new camera head for my Mytana set up from another camera company, and who will fix the spring like I asked Mytana a bunch of times and they always had a excuse not to fix it but charge me for it. That camera head was not at all used much and not at all beat on and was used for inspecting new sewer systems.


----------



## dhal22

So my 5 year old insanely priced Ridgid might be worth a few extra bucks solely due to it's perfect reliability record.

And another camera job today so I'm at five camera jobs in the last 4 business days.


----------



## fixitright

dhal22 said:


> So my 5 year old insanely priced Ridgid might be worth a few extra bucks solely due to it's perfect reliability record.
> 
> And another camera job today so I'm at five camera jobs in the last 4 business days.


Five camera jobs of just inspections or you sold a repair?

Here we have companies that only inspect through a city program.
The city doesn't want any comments on the inspection, only good 
film.


----------



## dhal22

fixitright said:


> Five camera jobs of just inspections or you sold a repair?
> 
> Here we have companies that only inspect through a city program.
> The city doesn't want any comments on the inspection, only good
> film.


 It varies. Jetted a new construction sewer line last week and the inspector was waiting by for a camera inspection. a couple of drain cleaning calls with camera follow ups, no repairs needed. camera inspection on Saturday helped me sell a $3,500 residential sewer line repair. Today was locate a problem and leave the property owner with a repair proposal.


----------

