# big box stores and you.



## reposessions (Nov 1, 2010)

Sitting here in my truck on a call waiting for a phone call and I was reading some recent post about lowes and hd. I for one love both stores as a home owner, and also as a service tech. They offer better prices then most local supply companies, and pretty much everything they sell tool wise is lifetime hassle free warrenty. Its such a convienence to be able to get everything at one place, I wish they sold food. There sales ppl are probaly a few french fries short of a happy meal, which means the h/o they talk to will buy the wrong part or something like that. In turn, h/o then has a nightmare on their hands, and call me. Well buddy since you bob the builder tried to fix that water heater with legos and bubble gun I have to replace it. Did you touch anything else? Oh the garbage disposal, no that's easy probaly just needs replaced to. Insert your own prices for above jobs and take some money you made becouse of the bigger stores and send them a high quality witty hallmark card from the thank you section. Move over old school here comes the next twenty years.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Speaking of HD. I was at a job installing a watchdog back up sump. The customer provided the unit, so no mark up for me. Pulled the battery out and parts were missing. Now he gets to run back and get the new one.


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## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

I guess if I'm being honest, Blowes and Dumpo aren't _all_ bad. 

Lowe's actually saved my butt a couple of times. One time I needed a 4" ABS long turn in the worst way. None of the supply houses in Pueblo even stock ABS anymore, so no luck there. Lowe's had it so $13 bucks charged to the company credit card and I was on my way!

Another time I was under a trailer trying to fix a leak on some 3/8 CTS polybutylene. Yes, odd-ball trailer stuff. That's 1/2" O.D. I had nothing, I mean NOTHING on my very well stocked van even close to that size. To further complicate matters it was already after 5 so the supply houses were closed. Truthfully though, I doubt Fergy or Win-Nelson would have had anything anyway. There is one store in Pueblo which sells odd ball stuff like Quest fittings, but they were closed too. So, off to Lowe's I went to see what I could find.

I was hoping for some crimp fittings and rings that size, but no such luck. I was thinking maybe some compression fittings, inserts, and delrin ferrules. No inserts, no ferrules.....

What did I find that saved my butt? They sold a kind of push on fitting similar to a Sharkbite except it was plastic, made by Watts, and most importantly, 1/2" O.D. Specifically mentioned being designed to work with PB on the package too. $5 bucks later, I was on my way back to the job...

Under normal circumstances I wouldn't risk using a fitting like that, but, in this case, it got the job done.:thumbsup:


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

They have their place and I haven't been in the business long enough to know any differently. I like that they don't sell my secret weapons. I have plenty of tools to make my life easier that only a pro knows about. On the other hand, I can get a good price on some quality, general use tools. 

If people want to try their hand on the plumbing in their own house, fine. It would be nice if they know the risks before they begin. Also, do those installers change out shut off valves for w/h installs? I know I can deliver better service because I want the customers future business. That gets lost on those who just care about the lowest price.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

The big box stores lately have been coming through on products the supply houses don't have.



Anytime a product the homeowner supplies to me is wrong, missing parts, not working? 

I'm getting compensated for the time. I'll find something else to do in the home while they are fetching me the working products.

Slows down my inventory spread and pricing seems far better than supply houses. 

And thinking the world stops turning at 4:30pm is simply put... F-ing retarded.


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## Hillside (Jan 22, 2010)

Went to h.d on new years eve in the a.m, bought a complete moen shower valve # trim kit, got to the job open the sealed box with the white straps on it very tight, cut them off, open it and no shower valve body  go back and they don't have any more in stock, hit up my plumber buddy and he had one at his shop i picked up........lame
another time i returned a toilet thet had a crack in the bowl, go down the toilet aisle to grab another and the dumbf is restocking the bowl i just returned to sell to someone else :furious:
but i do go back often i must admit :whistling2:


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

http://www.drintl.com/HtmlEmail/Water_Heater_Market_Profile_Sept2009.pdf

This is a few years old. Interesting read on water heaters, but check out page 8.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

http://neea.org/research/reports/06-158.pdf

Heres another study by an independent firm. This one is old too but is much more detailed than the first one. Check out page 17 for box store shares of water heaters. Do you think its gotten better or worse since this study?


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

I used to think hd and blowes were great until I learned that they are eating our lunch. I refuse to feed the lion that is waiting to eat me. I know I cant do anything about it myself but as a matter of principal I refuse to contribute. I have some more studies I will try to find and post on the subject. I also fully understand that there will always be a need for great service plumbers and always will be. Just not as many and counting downwards. There is not as much pie for us plumbers to share, because of box stores,and that is undisputable.


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## Jiffy (May 24, 2009)

All of our written estimates include a clause that states time lost due to customer supplied fixtures is billable at our hourly rate...this includes broken, incomplete and incorrect parts. This is in bold on the front of the quote and pointed out when applicable before customer signs.

If it's a service call the customer is verbally told this and must agree to these terms before work begins.

I also agree that these stores do have their place. I have had to go in after my reg supply house closed to get parts to complete a call. In some instances they actually had hard to find items...for instance I needed a stem from a shower divertor and my supply house did not carry it (no one can carry them all, right?) but Lowes did have it...I'm guessing they had become aware of the fact that alot of homes in that area were constructed with certain fixtures and they stocked parts. Anyway this allowed me to complete the job and not have to return the following day.

As far as pricing goes they do have better pricing on certain items which causes HO's to buy and have us install...disposals for instance.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

For those who say the box stores have a place... Just out of curiousity, what would you do in your respective situations had ol' boxy not been there, or not had what you wanted?


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

And what are you buying that has better prices (with equal or greater quality) than your wholesaler?


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

It's amazing how fast people forget service, and remember price. 

My supply house is pretty good. They go out of their way to help me. If I need something, they round it up, usually when I need it:whistling2: :laughing: . If I need to put a little concrete in their dumpster on a Sunday, they give me a key to the gate. 

I don't mind paying them so they can stay profitable, and be around to help me in the future.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

You always pay more for convenience, that is what a supplier provides. Mine is 20 mi. away and comes by 3 times a week. They will hot shot something over to me if I am in a bind. I have to give Coburn's Supply a two thumbs up. :thumbup: I resist the box stores.


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## Jiffy (May 24, 2009)

ckoch407 said:


> For those who say the box stores have a place... Just out of curiousity, what would you do in your respective situations had ol' boxy not been there, or not had what you wanted?


I imagine I'd have looked for a hardware store or if I couldn't find what I needed put the job off till the next day...this results in multiple trips which is inconvenient for me as well as the customer. The supply house I use most here closes at 5 during the week and has certain locations open till noon on Saturday...there are just some repairs that I require parts for in between those hours...don't feel I should have to justify that.



ckoch407 said:


> And what are you buying that has better prices (with equal or greater quality) than your wholesaler?


as stated in my previous post disposals for example, faucets as well. 

I for instance tried to repair my own faucet one Saturday and could not get it apart without damaging it...the wife wasn't going to go without a kitchen faucet all weekend and she wanted a specific type (pull out spout which I don't keep on my truck). So I got the part and installed in about an hour. Priced it at the supply house next time I was there and found I got it about 15% cheaper and the one I got included a soap dispenser as well.


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## hulihan (Aug 11, 2009)

We buy alot of concrete and some tools and Plastic, Roson paper and tape, but no plumbing material period ! I hate the place, ( but the supply house does not sell all the prep material we use to cover floors and tape off doors ) here where I live, once you get past all the illegals begging and following you looking for work and get inside, all you see are more illegals buying enough plumbing material to do a new house, they are the ones than make more work for us, but we have to wait till there job fails or by some streak of luck, they get caught by the inspectors, I bet on any given day, the one by where our shop is has 150 if not more very aggressive non english speaking begging for work, they pee and crap and leave a mess, it sucks ! I do not want tags on our material that say HD, and when a client calls and has there own material they bought at HD, we charge $180.00 per hr and zero guarantee, never fails that something is missing ! We do have a commercial account, but my wife uses it for plants and garden stuff ! Homeowners love it, they think they are getting great deals, but everything that we need to be brass, like pop ups in Lav facuets are plastic , the list is long :furious: Bascally the place is a magnet for illegals and the bummer is they get hires and are back rain or shine, the police every blue moon come by, but the scatter and hide, and in the parking lot are all the shady contractors here in my area !


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

No one said you had to justify anything. You made the choice to respond to an unaddressed question. And since you did, would you mind sharing the model number of the consumer products your supplier sells at a wholesale outlet. I'd bet a dollar to a dime that something is different. 

As for those who have pointed out that boxy notices what faucets/fixtures get the most repairs in certain areas and stock accordingly, is boxy the only one smart enough to plan ahead and do this? Is it that hard for an experienced pro to plan ahead? Or offer a replacement alternatives instead?







ckoch407 said:


> And what are you buying that has better prices (with equal or greater quality) than your wholesaler?





Jiffy said:


> I imagine I'd have looked for a hardware store or if I couldn't find what I needed put the job off till the next day...this results in multiple trips which is inconvenient for me as well as the customer. The supply house I use most here closes at 5 during the week and has certain locations open till noon on Saturday...there are just some repairs that I require parts for in between those hours...don't feel I should have to justify that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

ckoch407 said:


> No one said you had to justify anything. You made the choice to respond to an unaddressed question. And since you did, would you mind sharing the model number of the consumer products your supplier sells at a wholesale outlet. I'd bet a dollar to a dime that something is different.
> 
> As for those who have pointed out that boxy notices what faucets/fixtures get the most repairs in certain areas and stock accordingly, is boxy the only one smart enough to plan ahead and do this? Is it that hard for an experienced pro to plan ahead? Or offer a replacement alternatives instead?



It may not be a popular choice, but a big box store is a nice alternative if your in a bad spot. 

Like someone else said, when your on that job, and need something but its closing time at a supply house, and a big box is open, it just makes sense.

Its also a nice place to find people that might need some help, and if your shopping there you can always give them a card. 

Also, there is no doubt that they are priced better on some items. I buy my ISE disposal from HD. No supplier in my area can match that price, and on the Evolution it is significant dollars.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Try to find a 2 1/2" PVC DWV fitting at home cheapo. :no:


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## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> Try to find a 2 1/2" PVC DWV fitting at home cheapo. :no:


I've never seen 2 1/2 PVC ANYWHERE in Colorado. Do you guys use it commonly where you are?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

greenscoutII said:


> I've never seen 2 1/2 PVC ANYWHERE in Colorado. Do you guys use it commonly where you are?


 


I re-piped some sprinkler lines for a restaurant customer of mine, and I needed a 2 1/2" x 2 1/2" x 2" pvc tee. Another time I was capping a line and needed a 2 1/2" hard cap. But it isn't often that I encounter 2 1/2" pipe.

I'll tell you, last month I re-modeled a condo that I think was built in the 1970's and I had to cut a 5" cast iron stack to change some san tees. That was the first time in 17 yrs I have ever seen 5" drain line. The 5" stack was a combination waste and vent.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Having a planned inventory system eliminates 99% of the need to buy last minute ... From boxy or wholesaler. After properly stocking my truck I can count on one hand the times I had to go buy a fitting or two on a VERY busy day. Parts come off, are ordered online at the end of day, are delivered and replaced on truck next day. Very efficient.


I was at hd before I quit going, and was chatting with an owner about their plumbing and handed them a card. Apron wearer walks up mid conversation and of course was lost. After ho's leave I was kindly directed to a large sign of small print at the entrance that I had never noticed and was politrly told that soliciting work (giving card) was prohibited. 

As for disposals, have you tried Barnett? They have a great selection. They have a Premier "knock off" of the B5 that is identical, just a different sticker. Way better prices than hd. 










Indie said:


> It may not be a popular choice, but a big box store is a nice alternative if your in a bad spot.
> 
> Like someone else said, when your on that job, and need something but its closing time at a supply house, and a big box is open, it just makes sense.
> 
> ...


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## hulihan (Aug 11, 2009)

Home depot and all the big box stores in my area, and I am in Marina Del Rey area of Los Angeles is where every shady, and scandalous unlicensed and illegal contractors/handyman and just plan idiots buy all there material, before there were HD and the like, us licensed plumbing contractors were in a different class, about 2 weeks ago I was in HD getting a case of WD40 and 10 rolls of Rosen paper etc plastic ..... and a guy who did not speak one word of english ( spanish)had a cart with enough copper and abs to pipe a house, if I had my way, he would of been on a bus in handcuffs back to whatever place he came from, that is what is messing up life for everyone of us, like it or not ! If it is your suply house, good luck, one thing I tell all our clients, we do not buy any plumbing matgerial from Home depot, the reason it is cheaper is a few, one is they buy trains full of stuff, the other is if it can be plastic, it will be, and I prefer all brass and I hate being in a place where no one speaks english !
I am done !:thumbup:


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

I think its embarrasing as a professional to go to a box store and buy consumer products at consumer prices for a professional install or repair. 

I think it would be embarrasing to call myself a professional, yet be so poorly prepared for the menu of services I provide as to rely on the existence of box stores to the point that it effects my daily operation and has become how I do business. 

A trip to boxy saves having to return to a customers home to complete a repair, thus saving time? Well you still left the job to get parts and return to complete the repair, did you not? So where is the time savings? 

Disclaimer: this is my opinion and is not directed at anybody.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Indie said:


> It may not be a popular choice, but a big box store is a nice alternative if your in a bad spot.
> 
> Like someone else said, when your on that job, and need something but its closing time at a supply house, and a big box is open, it just makes sense.
> 
> ...


 
So, you will drive to homey, use gas, park your lettered truck, (which, by the way, is a billboard saying "tools inside"). Walk about a half mile, wait in line, or worse yet, use the self checkout. All to save, what, 30 bucks?

Meanwhile, the supply house that stocks all the other crazy stuff we need on a regular basis, is potentially on the verge of shutting down. Man, throw them the bone. Let them earn a profit. You want your core customers calling Jimmy Jims drain cleaning, cause he is a few bucks cheaper, and it is "only" a plugged drain. (" We'll call Indie the next time we have a "real" plumbing problem") Hell no, you don't.

Your customers will pay a little more for first class service, so should you. 

And, as far as I'm concerned, Insinkerator can stick it up their A$$. Them scumbags put their product on the shelf at homey, and make use look like Jerkofffs. It does appear that the units in homey are using the old style strainer gasket, and rigid disposal arm, but they are the same color, style, etc. Every one in a while, I have to explain it to the customer. Oh well. 

At least they recently came back out with the 333. They are now calling it the "Contractor 333".

Also, talk to the manager at your supply house. I did, and if I buy 3 disposals at a time, the price comes down. Same with sump pumps, and whatever.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

ckoch407 said:


> ...would you mind sharing the model number of the consumer products your supplier sells at a wholesale outlet. I'd bet a dollar to a dime that something is different...


http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs..._-featured_product_03-_-tub_shower-_-shop_now
These have a different part number only because they have the rough-in valve included with the trim. The product is identical. The prices range from being our exact cost to being significantly lower.


http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...ution&langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
The ISE Evolution series products are all less money at HD than at our suppliers.


You owe me a dollar. :laughing:


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I recently looked at the disposals in homey. 

The units on display used the older style mounting gasket, that is captured under the strainer, not the style that is at the supply house, that fits in the strainer from above. They also use the disposal arm that mounts to the unit with a metal bracket, and 2 bolts. Not the one that fits into the rubber boot, with the spring clamp. 

The units at the supply house are superior, and much quieter, with less vibration.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

ckoch407 said:


> For those who say the box stores have a place... Just out of curiousity, what would you do in your respective situations had ol' boxy not been there, or not had what you wanted?


We would do without. Fact is they are here, staying here, and forever changing the way we all do business. With rare exceptions, I only use plumbing materials and fixtures from Ferguson's, Winnelson, and Locke. But Friday night when I neded a 4" 22deg elbow to tie in a sewer we had worked on all day, you can bet I was glad Home Depot had them on the shelf. There is always an exception to even the most mighty of rules.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

That is the answer I was looking for. We would adapt, improvise, overcome. Maybe even plan ahead. 

I also concur with the rest of your statement. I would allow myself a fitting or two. But thats about it. 




plbgbiz said:


> We would do without. Fact is they are here, staying here, and forever changing the way we all do business. With rare exceptions, I only use plumbing materials and fixtures from Ferguson's, Winnelson, and Locke. But Friday night when I neded a 4" 22deg elbow to tie in a sewer we had worked on all day, you can bet I was glad Home Depot had them on the shelf. There is always an exception to even the most mighty of rules.


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## Nevada Plumber (Jan 3, 2009)

I buy my disposers from a supply house even though they are a few dollars more. All the customer supplied disposers that I have installed from Home Depot don't come with power cords. On the Evolution series, the HD units have a cheaper stopper then the Pro version.

I will buy from HD on occasion, but usually only as a last resort. I had an extremely busy week last week and used up my stock of water heaters. The local supply house doesn't carry the sizes I needed, so I had to get them from HD to get the job done. I don't like it, but sometimes it is a necessary evil.


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