# Hack Job



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

A post on CT, OP claims a plumber did this so he was told yea right. That was no plumber, pure hack job.

http://www.contractortalk.com/f9/good-bad-what-friends-house-just-got-fixt-62471/


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> A post on CT, OP claims a plumber did this so he was told yea right. That was no plumber, pure hack job.
> 
> http://www.contractortalk.com/f9/good-bad-what-friends-house-just-got-fixt-62471/


 The only thing I see wrong with it is the pipe is not strapped or supported and it all crooked. One could argue about the sharkbites but they are code approved.


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

I bet the OP did it himself, but won't admit it.:laughing:


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Thats was what I was thinking, a plumber did not do that.


----------



## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> The only thing I see wrong with it is the pipe is not strapped or supported and it all crooked. One could argue about the sharkbites but they are code approved.


 
ARE YOU SERIOUS ??????


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Cal said:


> ARE YOU SERIOUS ??????


Ok so whats technically wrong with it other than its not supported and not straight? I dont get paid to study pictures but thats all I found one my first look. Sharkbites are code approved so just them them out of your answer.


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

TM would you do work that looked like that?


----------



## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> TM would you do work that looked like that?


 I'm waiting on that answer too . 

C'MON ,,, what kind of pex fittings are those ,,, Lowes brand ??


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> TM would you do work that looked like that?


 I would choose different materials and my work would be neat and straight. But I still cant find anything wrong with it other than its not strapped properly and its crooked. I could see a licensed plumber doing that sure...plenty of licensed hacks out there. My work??? No it wouldn't look like that if I had done the work...I think you know that Ron. I'm picky about my finished work in most cases.


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

There is only one word that tells me what is wrong with that job, and that word is workmanship, and it is not there, so there for it is all wrong to me.

An inspector can fail a plumbing inspection over workmanship.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

not here they can't. If they can't site a code they can't fail you.

I think my favorite part is the 90 above the heater pressed up against the roof deck. Gonna get interesting when it comes time for the re-roof. The pex out doors is good to. If you notice, that's PE foam insulation. It's not rated for UV exposure. It will rot away in a 3 years and then the pex is toast. That copper strap will cut into the pex to as it breaths back and forth.

The pipe and fittings are uponor/wirsbo pex with glass impregnated polysulphone fittings for the guy that asked.


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Must have been a craigslist plumber that did that job. :yes:


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> not here they can't. If they can't site a code they can't fail you.
> 
> I think my favorite part is the 90 above the heater pressed up against the roof deck. Gonna get interesting when it comes time for the re-roof. The pex out doors is good to. If you notice, that's PE foam insulation. It's not rated for UV exposure. It will rot away in a 3 years and then the pex is toast. That copper strap will cut into the pex to as it breaths back and forth.
> 
> The pipe and fittings are uponor/wirsbo pex with glass impregnated polysulphone fittings for the guy that asked.


 Most codes have a workmanship clause...better get that book out protech. But yes Its not strapped proper thats what i said also. most codes say somthing like this..."All plumbing installations,alterations,repair must be installed with good workmanship and according to manufactures instructions" That leaves alot of room for the inspector to F with you if he wants. Theres not going to be too many instances when the inspector cant point out a code violation as a result of poor workmanship. But in the pics that can be corrected in a few minutes.


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Here you have to protect the pipes in the attic space from freezing, I don't know Florida code, do they not ask you to do that there?


----------



## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Where at in FL is what I wanna know?


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Here you have to protect the pipes in the attic space from freezing, I don't know Florida code, do they not ask you to do that there?


In my area if the house has heat the pipes in the attic will not freeze. It really doesn't get very cold here. We might have a few NIGHTS down in the teens every few years and then in the day it warms up. Our biggest problem with freezing pipes are on north walls of the home or in crawl spaces that do not have skirting around to keep the wind out. Wind is usually involved here if somthing feezes. So here in an attic wouldn't be a big concern with freezing. However in 89 i ripped about 200 feet of copper out of a garage that had industrial insulation with taped joints......It all froze and popped.....so you cant rely on insualtion alone.


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Where at in FL is what I wanna know?


You asking where in Fl this hack job took place at? If so I don't know.


----------



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Cal said:


> I'm waiting on that answer too .
> 
> C'MON ,,, what kind of pex fittings are those ,,, Lowes brand ??



The black pex fittings are Uponor EP fittings, most plumbers that use Uponor use the EP fittings, I do.
I would not have used the sharkbites in this situation, not in a million years.
I would not have strapped the Uponor with metal straps, I would not have run Uponor outside.
Also, I don't understand why he used so many EP fittings to begin with? The idea of running Uponor is to use LESS fittings. He ran the Uponor like you run copper. 
I don't think it was an experienced plumber that did this job. It doesn't matter if it's pex or copper, he did it wrong and it looks like crap.

I just looked at the pictures again. I wouldn't have run the Uponor up so high in the garage attic, no reason to do that. The worst part of the job is the mixing of piping and the sharkbites, the second worst part is how he ran the pex, very sloppy. He ran the pex out from the truss and it's just hanging out in mid air, that was stupid. No reason for that. He could have easily tacked it to the truss on the way to the WH. He was sloppy, in a hurry and I doubt he's run very much pipe in the past.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ok I went back to the link and I wasn't scrolling down all the way and wasn't seeing the outside pic's and stuff. yeah it looks like crap even out there:laughing:. I still believe a plumber could have done it. I see some crazy stuff so called real plumbers have done. Its a crappity crap job but it will prolly last a few years....it kinda matches the rest of the place if you ask me!:laughing:


----------



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Ok I went back to the link and I wasn't scrolling down all the way and wasn't seeing the outside pic's and stuff. yeah it looks like crap even out there:laughing:. I still believe a plumber could have done it. I see some crazy stuff so called real plumbers have done. Its a crappity crap job but it will prolly last a few years....it kinda matches the rest of the place if you ask me!:laughing:


IF I had a plumber working for me that said he was an experienced journeyman and he did a job like that I would fire him, no questions asked.:thumbsup:


----------



## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Ok so whats technically wrong with it other than its not supported and not straight? I dont get paid to study pictures but thats all I found one my first look. Sharkbites are code approved so just them them out of your answer.


Pex not allow in the first 18" of piping connected to a water heater. 604.11.2 Uniform Plumbing Code


----------



## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Ok so whats technically wrong with it other than its not supported and not straight? I dont get paid to study pictures but thats all I found one my first look. Sharkbites are code approved so just them them out of your answer.


All hot water storage tanks must be equipped with a vacum relief valve....
Uniform Plumbing Code 608.7


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

i only install Vacuum Relief valves on Bottom Fed Water Heaters , Ga Code


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Plumbdog said:


> All hot water storage tanks must be equipped with a vacum relief valve....
> Uniform Plumbing Code 608.7


 I'm speechless......and thats rare.:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: But its a good laugh anyway:thumbsup: Thanks!


----------



## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I'm speechless......and thats rare.:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: But its a good laugh anyway:thumbsup: Thanks!


You asked and we have an inspector here that will not pass a WH with out one.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Plumbdog said:


> You asked and we have an inspector here that will not pass a WH with out one.


We dont follow the UPC and the water heater is installed in Florida. Most manufactures of pex allow pex to be connected to the electric water heater. So just because a particular code says its not legal doesn't mean its not proper according to the manufacturer and the warranty would be valid. I'm not going to argue three different code books and all the amendments on every post.


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> We dont follow the UPC and the water heater is installed in Florida. Most manufactures of pex allow pex to be connected to the electric water heater. So just because a particular code says its not legal doesn't mean its not proper according to the manufacturer and the warranty would be valid. I'm not going to argue three different code books and all the amendments on every post.


 NOT argue, your discussing :thumbup:


----------



## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

Craig's List .....had to be Craig's List.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Go to the plumbing pic section and look at all the water heater pics......now count how many of the standard tank type residental heaters have a vaccum breaker installed on them. post that number for me! I'm not gonna do stupid research. No vaccum breaker needed on a top feed heater in a residental system if the code requires that then sombody needs to check and see if the man that writes the code owns stock in WATTS co. or a supply house. Just somthing else to malfunction. Now lets continue to discuss this...I'm all for it.


----------



## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Go to the plumbing pic section and look at all the water heater pics......now count how many of the standard tank type residental heaters have a vaccum breaker installed on them. post that number for me! I'm not gonna do stupid research. No vaccum breaker needed on a top feed heater in a residental system if the code requires that then sombody needs to check and see if the man that writes the code owns stock in WATTS co. or a supply house. Just somthing else to malfunction. Now lets continue to discuss this...I'm all for it.


Chicago code requires a vacuum releif valve on any heater that is mounted above a fixture that it serves, be it top fed or bottom fed.


----------



## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> We dont follow the UPC and the water heater is installed in Florida. Most manufactures of pex allow pex to be connected to the electric water heater. So just because a particular code says its not legal doesn't mean its not proper according to the manufacturer and the warranty would be valid. I'm not going to argue three different code books and all the amendments on every post.




Hey, you asked what was wrong with it and I through out a couple of things. I for one don't use pex in the first 18" of piping a WH because that's what "my code book states" as for the vacum breaker while I may agree with and disagree with the code and the inspector that I deal with, in the end if he wants it and it's in the book...

I also understand that you wouldn't want to waste your time, or stay up all night, researching the plumbing codes of jursidictions and states that don't apply to you. And I am sure you wouldn't waste your time contacting the state inspector (of Oreagon) for that matter to check if it's legal or not to modify a tail piece. 

Your much too bussy for that.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Why am I not suprised.



Killertoiletspider said:


> Chicago code requires a vacuum releif valve on any heater that is mounted above a fixture that it serves, be it top fed or bottom fed.


----------



## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech said:


> Why am I not suprised.


Yeah, it's silly to have a code that is meant to prevent damage to electric water heaters that are installed in a fashion that allows them to be easily siphoned when the water is shut off.


----------



## Christina (Jul 14, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> A post on CT, OP claims a plumber did this so he was told yea right. That was no plumber, pure hack job.
> 
> http://www.contractortalk.com/f9/good-bad-what-friends-house-just-got-fixt-62471/


I think I would have to refer to this work as *out of *or* off plumb*. WOW! That is not very pretty work... It must first be right and pretty at that!(being that most HO don't like something that looks like shiot!) Please tell me that picture is not a ditch 'COMPLETELY' backfilled with CEMENT!!


----------



## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

Looks like a typical handyman job, probably learned that way at a HD or Lowes saturday morning Education class. The PVC relief would fail big time on an inspection...


----------



## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

ESPinc said:


> Looks like a typical handyman job, probably learned that way at a HD or Lowes saturday morning Education class. The PVC relief would fail big time on an inspection...


Easy there big fella. I just took a class on mini-blinds at Lowes.:laughing:


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Well, there apears to be about 2 million heaters down here installed without'em that are somehow working just fine.



Killertoiletspider said:


> Yeah, it's silly to have a code that is meant to prevent damage to electric water heaters that are installed in a fashion that allows them to be easily siphoned when the water is shut off.


----------



## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

We throw the breakers to the water heaters whenever we shut off a main. Company Policy.


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Protech said:


> Well, there apears to be about 2 million heaters down here installed without'em that are somehow working just fine.


IL code is a well thought out code. I apoligize to you for your thrown together mess of a code.


----------



## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech said:


> Well, there apears to be about 2 million heaters down here installed without'em that are somehow working just fine.


There are about two million lead water services here that work just fine too, what's your point?


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I feel like this about it: The chances of pulling a siphon from a top connect heater is pretty slim. Dees it occasionally happen? Yes. So does that mean we spend thousands of dollars installing vacuum relieves on every heater so that maybe 1 out of 100 heaters won't blow an element and cost the HO $200 to replace them? Doesn't make sense to me.

Of course it does add to your ticket when installing a water heater so I'm not surprised that it's code in union run Chicago.

Now a side outlet heater I could see. The only thing is, the majority of side outlet heaters here are single element. That means the element is going to be below all the fixture outlets in most cases. So even then it's not needed in most cases.


----------



## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech said:


> I feel like this about it: The chances of pulling a siphon from a top connect heater is pretty slim. Dees it occasionally happen? Yes. So does that mean we spend thousands of dollars installing vacuum relieves on every heater so that maybe 1 out of 100 heaters won't blow an element and cost the HO $200 to replace them? Doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> Of course it does add to your ticket when installing a water heater so I'm not surprised that it's code in union run Chicago.
> 
> Now a side outlet heater I could see. The only thing is, the majority of side outlet heaters here are single element. That means the element is going to be below all the fixture outlets in most cases. So even then it's not needed in most cases.


You fail to grasp what I posted, again.

It is only required in Chicago when the water heater is installed above the fixture it serves, like in the ceiling above a bathroom in a strip mall, where it could easily get siphoned by the malls maintenance guy turning off the water trying to fix a leak, and not knowing the consequences of his actions. Now I realize you are far more intelligent than I am, so can you tell me why you object to this code?


----------



## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

It's Illinois code as well. There is a water tower in Rockford that pulled a vacuum and is crumpled. I will see if I can find a link.


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

No code in Oregon requires an vacuum breaker on a water heater no matter where it is located.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I see, I was under the impression that it applied even if any portion of the heater was above the outlet of the fixture. I didn’t understand that you meant the heater was installed completely above the fixture with a large difference in height. That does make some sense.


So in other words, if you have a 40 gallon tall sitting on the floor with a mop sink faucet next to it, you wouldn’t need a VRV. Right?



Killertoiletspider said:


> You fail to grasp what I posted, again.
> 
> It is only required in Chicago when the water heater is installed above the fixture it serves, like in the ceiling above a bathroom in a strip mall, where it could easily get siphoned by the malls maintenance guy turning off the water trying to fix a leak, and not knowing the consequences of his actions. Now I realize you are far more intelligent than I am, so can you tell me why you object to this code?


----------



## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Correct, in Illinois. If the heater is on the same floor, regardless of fixture height, it's cool. If heater is elevated, like on 2nd floor, or even on a shelf, or up in the ceiling, it gets a VRV.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

arty:Gotcha, my bad.


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Or if the heater is side inlet/outlet, it also gets a vacuum relief valve.

No matter if it's elevated or on the same floor.


----------



## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Where at in FL is what I wanna know?


 
LIBERTY CITY or maybe OVERTOWN.:whistling2:


----------

