# Aquapex



## redbeardplumber

Why does this stuff turn yellow on the hot lines...

Here is a pic of a recirq line I replaced about a year ago... More yellow than a domestic house with normal use..


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## rjbphd

Over pumping??


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## redbeardplumber

Yes RJ I agree, it is Overpumping. It's a small circulator, but runs all the time, it's a busy campground and the shower house is a ways away, with people using it at odd times...,

I just did a complete remodel though on a house with no recirq line, and the pipe is turning yellow. Not as bad, but still.


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## Master Mark

I worry about what new additives are getting put in the water from the water company... if the clorine gets too high , you dont know how it will react with the stuff....

that is probably the sludje from the bottom of the tank discoloring the pipe ..... 

We have debated all this stuff out before .....but I think that some day the pex is probably going to turn PURPLE when they finally put the wrong mix in the water and then start leaking at every joint...

hope it waits till after I retire:blink:


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## Will

PVC does the same on water service. Turns yellow on the inside. Bet copper does the same, just doesn't show.


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## Will

I cut this out of a home built in 1998. Wasn't leaking or showing any signs of failure, just cut it out when I moved a water heater.


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## Best Darn Sewer

Will said:


> I cut this out of a home built in 1998. Wasn't leaking or showing any signs of failure, just cut it out when I moved a water heater.


Wow, they have some clean water or a good filtering system. Yeah, I have always assumed the brown in the inside of water lines was normal and just accumulates naturally from the crap in our water supply. Like you say, Will, it is just now visible with clear PEX. I see more brown stains on Pex near the water heater.


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## redbeardplumber

That is clear Will. Wow was that the hot or cold ? In All my cases, all the hots are staining yellow. One place is only 3 months old. I agree with master mark, I think the chlorine is pulling this stuff out of the pipe... Now my homeowner is on the internet and found a couple aquapex lawsuits, and problems with chlorine, and he is freaking....


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## Master Mark

redbeardplumber said:


> That is clear Will. Wow was that the hot or cold ? In All my cases, all the hots are staining yellow. One place is only 3 months old. I agree with master mark, I think the chlorine is pulling this stuff out of the pipe... Now my homeowner is on the internet and found a couple aquapex lawsuits, and problems with chlorine, and he is freaking....[/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> well, isnt that delightful?? in 25 years their might be a problem
> So Is he expecting you to change it all out or something??
> 
> 
> I use aquapex on occasion, but usually I just stay away from the fittings. I have found it was actually easier for small jobs to just install it with sharkbite fittings....
> 
> yes... sharkbite fittings
> 
> 
> 
> its guess its pretty easy to google some nasty stuff about all the pexes
> and it looks like Aquapex is also right in the middle of it too...
> 
> I remember discussing all this stuff on Terry Loves site back in 2005
> and it appears that the buzzards are finally comming home to roost
> 
> http://failures.wikispaces.com/PEX+Plumbing+Failures..
> 
> 
> 
> I got folks insisting on me useing pex in their homes and it makes me wonder if I should send them to this site and make them read it and sign a waiver of liability


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## redbeardplumber

Well it was a complete house Reno. He did say it was in his nature to worry. I like the waiver idea, If you don't want to pay for copper, We will install a superior Pex product, however could you sign this please:yes:
http://www.documents.dgs.ca.gov/bsc/pex/exhibit_e_clark_pex.pdf


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## Will

redbeardplumber said:


> That is clear Will. Wow was that the hot or cold ? In All my cases, all the hots are staining yellow. One place is only 3 months old. I agree with master mark, I think the chlorine is pulling this stuff out of the pipe... Now my homeowner is on the internet and found a couple aquapex lawsuits, and problems with chlorine, and he is freaking....


Can't remember if it was cold or hot


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## Master Mark

A waiver with information about the issues on pex would be a good idea... 9 pages seems like a little like serious overkill..... I would certainly make them aware of it, their are a couple of huge companies that had to close their doors in Nevada due to Kitech...big 60 truck operations...


on the bright side, I forsee a lot of re-pipe work for the next generation of plumbers ..... maybe in another 15--25 years things will start to get exciteing..
 and especially with the stuff being used in boiler applications... 

 I ought to be retired by then or dead ...one way or another I am not gonna be doing it...:laughing::thumbup:


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## Best Darn Sewer

Master Mark said:


> A waiver with information about the issues on pex would be a good idea... 9 pages seems like a little like serious overkill..... I would certainly make them aware of it, their are a couple of huge companies that had to close their doors in Nevada due to Kitech...big 60 truck operations...
> 
> 
> on the bright side, I forsee a lot of re-pipe work for the next generation of plumbers ..... maybe in another 15--25 years things will start to get exciteing..
> and especially with the stuff being used in boiler applications...
> 
> I ought to be retired by then or dead ...one way or another I am not gonna be doing it...:laughing::thumbup:


A harsh but realistic view, Mark. I can't say I disagree. PB pipe sucked but sure made me plenty of money. As did Mexican and Chinese galvanized pipe. Its all about perspective.


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## Will

Lawyers got involved with PB. They act like it is the worst thing ever in Texas, but here in Oklahoma it has held up well. Plenty of homes from the 80's and 90's with PB still in great working order.


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## Best Darn Sewer

Will said:


> Lawyers got involved with PB. They act like it is the worst thing ever in Texas, but here in Oklahoma it has held up well. Plenty of homes from the 80's and 90's with PB still in great working order.


I hear ya. There are plenty of homes here with it still in tact. It was the fittings that caused all the issues primarily. And yes, lawyers did make it out to be worse than the reality. Plenty of it still working in lots of trailers and manufactured hones in Montana, too.


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## Will

Here in Oklahoma it was used with copper fittings and I believe Vanguard PB. The stuff seems to hold up well.


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## Best Darn Sewer

Will said:


> Here in Oklahoma it was used with copper fittings and I believe Vanguard PB. The stuff seems to hold up well.


That was the common way in MT, too, though I did see some of the gray plastic fittings, too. In Texas it seems like they used the plastic fittings exclusively which were garbage to begin with and thus are what failed the most.


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## Letterrip

I am certain that I have made hundreds of repairs over the years on polybutylene piping. The VAST majority of the times, it was plastic fittings. I have seen dozens of copper fittings fail in condos that were in their early-mid 20's at the time. I have seen the pipe fail, but manufacturers directions were not followed on most of those. The installing contractor used galvanized straps to secure the pb. The straps of course were not properly sized being they were ips. Created a stress point on the pb and it will leak there. Same complex has pb rolled on too sharp of angle. Outside radius of the curve splits. Pipe might not be as bad as its reputation, but its pretty bad. Just had to tear up a woman's kitchen on Tuesday to find the leak on the pb pipe. I push repipes, but everyone claims that they are broke :no


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## Master Mark

Best Darn Sewer said:


> A harsh but realistic view, Mark. I can't say I disagree. PB pipe sucked but sure made me plenty of money. As did Mexican and Chinese galvanized pipe. Its all about perspective.


 

Harsh, I dont think so...more like a train wreck....

I wonder how it would feel losing a 60 truck business that you have built up in Las Vegas because of the 35,000 homes you plumbed in ki-tech pex,,,, that is way beyond harsh....


Immagine being named in the next wave of lawsuits over the next 10 years because you plumbed a few hundred homes with Zurn pex or Vanguard.... 

 the warning signs are 
out there and lawyers are gunning for them already.


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## Best Darn Sewer

Master Mark said:


> Harsh, I dont think so...more like a train wreck....
> 
> I wonder how it would feel losing a 60 truck business that you have built up in Las Vegas because of the 35,000 homes you plumbed in ki-tech pex,,,, that is way beyond harsh....
> 
> 
> Immagine being named in the next wave of lawsuits over the next 10 years because you plumbed a few hundred homes with Zurn pex or Vanguard....
> 
> the warning signs are
> out there and lawyers are gunning for them already.


I guess "harsh" was an understatement.


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## ESPinc

Letterrip said:


> I am certain that I have made hundreds of repairs over the years on polybutylene piping. The VAST majority of the times, it was plastic fittings. I have seen dozens of copper fittings fail in condos that were in their early-mid 20's at the time. I have seen the pipe fail, but manufacturers directions were not followed on most of those. The installing contractor used galvanized straps to secure the pb. The straps of course were not properly sized being they were ips. Created a stress point on the pb and it will leak there. Same complex has pb rolled on too sharp of angle. Outside radius of the curve splits. Pipe might not be as bad as its reputation, but its pretty bad. Just had to tear up a woman's kitchen on Tuesday to find the leak on the pb pipe. I push repipes, but everyone claims that they are broke :no


You are pushing re pipes and they will be coming your way soon.. When all these people with PB piping find out they can not sell there home here in Fla. It is Uninsurable to the new owner and when these folks policy comes up for renewal they will find that their place will also become Uninsurable... It sucks for them but Citizens Insurance started this last March..

EDIT-- it started October 2012 with Citizens outlawing PB piping


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## Redwood

See quite a bit of water staining PEX here...

That's why I use Red & Blue PEX...

Out of sight... Out of mind....


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## redbeardplumber

I thought that was so you didn't mix hot and cold. Lol... I wish uponor came in blue and red... Good point...

Hey I sold an carbon filter b/c of the paranoia.


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## MTDUNN

You can get it in blue or red lettering


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## Redwood

redbeardplumber said:


> I thought that was so you didn't mix hot and cold. Lol... I wish uponor came in blue and red... Good point...
> 
> Hey I sold an carbon filter b/c of the paranoia.


Usually tannin or, manganese in solution all of which will pass through a filter...
Tannin usually stains yellow and manganese stains black...


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## love2surf927

redbeardplumber said:


> I thought that was so you didn't mix hot and cold. Lol... I wish uponor came in blue and red... Good point...
> 
> Hey I sold an carbon filter b/c of the paranoia.


Uponor does come in red and blue pipe. Only pex I've ever used.


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## redbeardplumber

love2surf927 said:


> Uponor does come in red and blue pipe. Only pex I've ever used.


Did not know that. Thanks. Haven't seen here.


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## wyrickmech

love2surf927 said:


> Uponor does come in red and blue pipe. Only pex I've ever used.


red and blue uponor is all I use here. If I am correct there is three grades of the pipe a,b,c . Uponor is a which means it is 80% cross linked zurn is grade b which is 60% . So why buy a inferior product and put your name to it? Pex is a reality that we have to deal with so get the good stuff and don't worry .


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## redbeardplumber

Redwood said:


> Usually tannin or, manganese in solution all of which will pass through a filter...
> Tannin usually stains yellow and manganese stains black...


Really, ok... I think customers main concern is the chlorine in water....I will let him know it won't prevent yellow staining, so he isn't mad at me twice. Lol


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## redbeardplumber

wyrickmech said:


> red and blue uponor is all I use here. If I am correct there is three grades of the pipe a,b,c . Uponor is a which means it is 80% cross linked zurn is grade b which is 60% . So why buy a inferior product and put your name to it? Pex is a reality that we have to deal with so get the good stuff and don't worry .


That's what I have done.... If you are saying uponor is the good one...I agree


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## Redwood

wyrickmech said:


> red and blue uponor is all I use here. If I am correct there is three grades of the pipe a,b,c . Uponor is a which means it is 80% cross linked zurn is grade b which is 60% . So why buy a inferior product and put your name to it? Pex is a reality that we have to deal with so get the good stuff and don't worry .


Not quite right...
The abc refers to the method used to crosslink the polyethylene ...




> *PEX-A (PE-Xa, PEXa)*
> *PEX-A is produced by the peroxide (Engel) method.* This method performs "hot" cross-linking, above the crystal melting point. However, the process takes slightly longer than the other two methods as the polymer has to be kept at high temperature and pressure for long periods during the extrusion process. The cross-linked bonds are between carbon atoms.
> 
> *PEX-B (PE-Xb, PEXb)*
> *The silane method, also called the "moisture cure" method, results in PEX-B.* In this method, cross-linking is performed in a secondary post-extrusion process, producing cross-links between a cross-linking agent. The process is accelerated with heat and moisture. The cross-linked bonds are formed through silanol condensation between two grafted vinyltrimethoxysilane (VTMS) units, connecting the polyethylene chains with C-C-Si-O-Si-C-C bridges. After installation, PEX-B have the same properties as PEX-A.
> 
> *PEX-C (PE-Xc, PEXc)*
> *PEX-C is produced through electron beam processing, in a "cold" cross-linking process (below the crystal melting point).* It provides less uniform, lower-degree cross-linking than the Engel method, especially at tube diameters over one inch (2.5 cm). When the process is not controlled properly, the outer layer of the tube may become brittle. However, it is the cleanest, most environmentally friendly method of the three, since it does not involve other chemicals and uses only high-energy electrons to split the carbon-hydrogen bonds and facilitate cross-linking.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-linked_polyethylene


I'm sure that Uponor appreciates your thinking that they have a Grade A product...:laughing:


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## Gryphon Plumber

(PEX-b) the crosslinking takes place at temperatures well below the crystalline melting point. For these methods, when tubing is heated over the melting point, there will be a loss of crystals when the material is cooled down again. The crosslinks will partially disturb the formation of previously existing crystals. So there will be a loss of strength after this reheating - which is not the case for PEX-a tubing.

http://www.houseneeds.com/learning-...eating/pex-tubing-pex-pipe-comparison-by-type

I disagree with the Wikipedia information saying they are the same after installation. I won't say this source is any more valid, but will say I have seen Pex Type Bs split. I have also seen Uponor Expand with ice without failing. Also I wouldn't worry about being sued like KiTec installers for installing Uponor. Uponor was around before KiTec, and still around after KiTec. They have a pretty good track record. Now I'm prepared to get corrected on this but I believe the lawsuits against Uponor were over their lower brand B Pex. 

People always say don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia.


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## Redwood

Gryphon Plumber said:


> I disagree with the Wikipedia information saying they are the same after installation. I won't say this source is any more valid, but will say I have seen Pex Type Bs split. I have also seen Uponor Expand with ice without failing. Also I wouldn't worry about being sued like KiTec installers for installing Uponor. Uponor was around before KiTec, and still around after KiTec. They have a pretty good track record. Now I'm prepared to get corrected on this but I believe the lawsuits against Uponor were over their lower brand B Pex.
> 
> People always say don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia.


I posted that primarily as saying the abc is the method of crosslinking and not a grade...:whistling2:

Now we all know the Uponor rep loves his product...:laughing:

So anyway what pex is best?

That's easy....

It's the one you use...:laughing:


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## Gryphon Plumber

Hopefully Uponor sees your suggestion and sends me a check. :laughing:


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## wyrickmech

Redwood said:


> Not quite right... The abc refers to the method used to crosslink the polyethylene ... I'm sure that Uponor appreciates your thinking that they have a Grade A product...:laughing:


 ok I stand corrected but it is still a better product. Anytime you can kink a line and with a little heat it reforms itself to the original shape is a plus. You can bend it tighter. There is a greater flow threw the fittings to. Interesting that it is not a grade I will have a little talk with the rep next time .


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## Will

I understand the PEX A, B, C is not a scale of which is better, and I'm not a chemist, but by using all grades of PEX, Wirsbo seems to be the better product. Pipe and fittings. I can't back that up with Science, but my Plumbers option says Wirsbo is superior.


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## wyrickmech

Will said:


> I understand the PEX A, B, C is not a scale of which is better, and I'm not a chemist, but by using all grades of PEX, Wirsbo seems to be the better product. Pipe and fittings. I can't back that up with Science, but my Plumbers option says Wirsbo is superior.


I agree one test you can do is the kink test. Kink all three kinds and see which one you can fix with a little heat that was the deciding point for me.


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## PathMaker

redbeardplumber said:


> I thought that was so you didn't mix hot and cold. Lol... I wish uponor came in blue and red... Good point...
> 
> Hey I sold an carbon filter b/c of the paranoia.


Uponor does come in red and blue. I got 200 feet of each on my truck. type A


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## Mike Jessome

Will said:


> I cut this out of a home built in 1998. Wasn't leaking or showing any signs of failure, just cut it out when I moved a water heater.


We have had problems with those old brass wirsbo fittings when the customer has bad water they eventually just start leaking


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## ToUtahNow

Master Mark said:


> Harsh, I dont think so...more like a train wreck....
> 
> I wonder how it would feel losing a 60 truck business that you have built up in Las Vegas because of the 35,000 homes you plumbed in ki-tech pex,,,, that is way beyond harsh....
> 
> 
> Immagine being named in the next wave of lawsuits over the next 10 years because you plumbed a few hundred homes with Zurn pex or Vanguard....
> 
> the warning signs are
> out there and lawyers are gunning for them already.


I'm fairly sure I know the company you are talking about. They did not have 60-trucks but they had a lot of them. Their problems went way beyond the Kitec lawsuit. That was just one of many of the problems they had. Kitec was the one that was forced out of business from a $90,000,000 settlement.

Mark


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## ToUtahNow

Gryphon Plumber said:


> (PEX-b) the crosslinking takes place at temperatures well below the crystalline melting point. For these methods, when tubing is heated over the melting point, there will be a loss of crystals when the material is cooled down again. The crosslinks will partially disturb the formation of previously existing crystals. So there will be a loss of strength after this reheating - which is not the case for PEX-a tubing.
> 
> http://www.houseneeds.com/learning-...eating/pex-tubing-pex-pipe-comparison-by-type
> 
> I disagree with the Wikipedia information saying they are the same after installation. I won't say this source is any more valid, but will say I have seen Pex Type Bs split. I have also seen Uponor Expand with ice without failing. Also I wouldn't worry about being sued like KiTec installers for installing Uponor. Uponor was around before KiTec, and still around after KiTec. They have a pretty good track record. Now I'm prepared to get corrected on this but I believe the lawsuits against Uponor were over their lower brand B Pex.
> 
> People always say don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia.


Actually Kitec and Uponor had both been around for a very long time. Kitec pipe was built under a license from Uponor. Uponor's company RTI had the same problem as Kites so Uponor closed them down and had to pay to have a bunch of homes repiped in Las Vegas. There is now a major class action suit which includes Uponor in the Las Vegas area. It's never been about the pipe, it's always been about the fittings and they all were using the same material.

Mark


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## Gryphon Plumber

ToUtahNow said:


> Actually Kitec and Uponor had both been around for a very long time. Kitec pipe was built under a license from Uponor. Uponor's company RTI had the same problem as Kites so Uponor closed them down and had to pay to have a bunch of homes repiped in Las Vegas. There is now a major class action suit which includes Uponor in the Las Vegas area. It's never been about the pipe, it's always been about the fittings and they all were using the same material. Mark


I have heard of this lawsuit against Uponor, but to my understanding it's on there lower brand of Pex not the flagship. I have seen it in some mobile homes, it uses crimp rings. You say it's the fitting, but the lower level uponor using crimp rings would use different fittings. Seems like the quality difference between Kohlet & Kohler Sterling.


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## rjbphd

Richard Trenwray from TOH said the tubing and connections will never leak... dislike that guy and wished he stay away from the hydronic heating systems.


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## wyrickmech

Uponor memory ring system is still the best of the pex systems.


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## ToUtahNow

Gryphon Plumber said:


> I have heard of this lawsuit against Uponor, but to my understanding it's on there lower brand of Pex not the flagship. I have seen it in some mobile homes, it uses crimp rings. You say it's the fitting, but the lower level uponor using crimp rings would use different fittings. Seems like the quality difference between Kohlet & Kohler Sterling.


Nope, it all has to do with the yellow brass fittings. Kitec just happened to be the first one in the Las Vegas market. When talk of the Kitec class action came out, Kitec left the Las Vegas and Uponor stepped in using the same yellow brass fittings, often built by the same suppliers.

Mark


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