# A little pre fab.



## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

A little bit of pre fab work. Starting to add the water lines now.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

thanks for the pictures....

what is that battery of fixtures going into anyway....

like a 50 story building??


that is a lot of copper...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

:notworthy: :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup1: :w00t: :notworthy: :clap: :thumbup1:  :thumbup:  :rockon:

I think that about sums up my thoughts on the matter.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

No MOENTROL???


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Nice work!!!!

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Master Mark said:


> thanks for the pictures.... what is that battery of fixtures going into anyway.... like a 50 story building?? that is a lot of copper...


I think it's 90. I have to build 90 of these then a battery of 8 carries and 2 urinals..... All lead and oakum and copper, 90 times.


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

Flyout95 said:


> I think it's 90. I have to build 90 of these then a battery of 8 carries and 2 urinals..... All lead and oakum and copper, 90 times.


Will the lead and oakum assemblies need additional bracing, and will the lead joints have to be tamped again on site?


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## SSP (Dec 14, 2013)

Mhmm shiny 0_o ! But Damn that looks expensive $D ! 

I think I'm feeling pipe envy , looks like a blast ! Thanks for sharing ! 

Where about is this work being done? In that area is DWV copper a standard code requirement for residential & throughout or is it just to maintain fire ratings when spec'd?


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## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

Nice work. Hope your measurement are right


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

newyorkcity said:


> Will the lead and oakum assemblies need additional bracing, and will the lead joints have to be tamped again on site?


Yes, we're planning on using tube steel, drilled to the carrier rod dimension, then bolting them on to hold it ridged. Once we get them build and cut to shipping size I'll take pics and post them. It'll be a little bit tho.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

vinpadalino said:


> Nice work. Hope your measurement are right


Measure once, cut twice.... or something.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

SSP said:


> Mhmm shiny 0_o ! But Damn that looks expensive $D !
> 
> I think I'm feeling pipe envy , looks like a blast ! Thanks for sharing !
> 
> Where about is this work being done? In that area is DWV copper a standard code requirement for residential & throughout or is it just to maintain fire ratings when spec'd?


Building is in Chicago. anything under 3 stories residential can be PVC, I'm new to the city, did most my work in the burbs so maybe on of the City folks and clarify.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

Looks great, why not cast?


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

love2surf927 said:


> Looks great, why not cast?


I'm not too sure, normally we run 3" and up in Cast and everything else in copper in the city. My guess is the amount of lead joints on made them lean towards copper.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Flyout95 said:


> I think it's 90. I have to build 90 of these then a battery of 8 carries and 2 urinals..... All lead and oakum and copper, 90 times.


Also it's 45 of each. Each one is slightly different, and they are bid at 2.5 days per. From what I hear..... We'll see how long it take. This is the first one, so it's a little longer, and i'm going to start making and marking my cuts mathematically. with just the print and the centers. I think If I can get my math right, I can knock out the Lavs in a day and a half, then coast on the Carriers.


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

SSP said:


> Mhmm shiny 0_o ! But Damn that looks expensive $D !
> 
> I think I'm feeling pipe envy , looks like a blast ! Thanks for sharing !
> 
> Where about is this work being done? In that area is DWV copper a standard code requirement for residential & throughout or is it just to maintain fire ratings when spec'd?


Doesn't have to be copper,they are more than happy to let you do it in galv. pipe if you care to.When you are running C.I. waste you reach a point where the cost of the material plays against the cost of the labor.You can normally make a 2" swt. joint on a DWV copper fitting in less time than it would take to do a galv. or B+S joint,pay more for material and get it back in the labor cost.Over three stories in Chicago and your using C.I. B+S pipe on the waste and a metallic material for your vents,no hub doesn't fly either.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

leakfree said:


> Doesn't have to be copper,they are more than happy to let you do it in galv. pipe if you care to.When you are running C.I. waste you reach a point where the cost of the material plays against the cost of the labor.You can normally make a 2" swt. joint on a DWV copper fitting in less time than it would take to do a galv. or B+S joint,pay more for material and get it back in the labor cost.Over three stories in Chicago and your using C.I. B+S pipe on the waste and a metallic material for your vents,no hub doesn't fly either.


 

cast with no-hubs would make that job a
 breeze compaired to all the copper involved....


if this is all prefab, just wondering who took the measurements
and what happens if you are off about 2 inches????

if you got 90 to do,
has the first one gone in yet to be sure you are tight??


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Master Mark said:


> cast with no-hubs would make that job a breeze compaired to all the copper involved.... if this is all prefab, just wondering who took the measurements and what happens if you are off about 2 inches???? if you got 90 to do, has the first one gone in yet to be sure you are tight??


It's all BIM. Everything is installed based on GPS and 3D mapping. It's drawn by draftsmen under the supervision of plumbers. We look at the model as we pipe everything for the prefab to save material and time as we see it work. It's all tested in the shop, cut, cradled. 

The drawings are coordinated, and most jobs we do our company does the fitting and HVAC as well. In terms of prefab, it's a process, we've failed before, and strive to increase productivity and percision.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Flyout95 said:


> It's all BIM. Everything is installed based on GPS and 3D mapping. It's drawn by draftsmen under the supervision of plumbers. We look at the model as we pipe everything for the prefab to save material and time as we see it work. It's all tested in the shop, cut, cradled.
> 
> The drawings are coordinated, and most jobs we do our company does the fitting and HVAC as well. In terms of prefab, it's a process, we've failed before, and strive to increase productivity and percision.


I guarantee something will be off somewhere then they will start pointing fingers,that a lot of money in copper for many mistakes to be made!!!!


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

sparky said:


> I guarantee something will be off somewhere then they will start pointing fingers,that a lot of money in copper for many mistakes to be made!!!!


It ain't their first rodeo... 

They bid for mistakes.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Very impressive!.....:thumbsup: That's a lot of cutting and de-burring. 

I also like to see the joints sweated and not propressed....


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## CT18 (Sep 18, 2012)

nice job fly. I am sure there will be minimal mistakes. I pre fabbed all the bathroom groups for Ford field here in Detroit. We only had 4 issues because of design changes made after the fab was made and shipped out. This was before the days of Navis and BIM. We also used no hub for all waste and vent. Do you guys use a tee puller for the water header or use fittings. We pulled all openings off the water headers. The trouble we had is we had to scale everything off the construction drawings because we had no CAD people to make us fab sheets. Now i am working in the CAD design end of the business and we fab as much as possible. What company you with


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Flyout95 said:


> It's all BIM. Everything is installed based on GPS and 3D mapping. It's drawn by draftsmen under the supervision of plumbers. We look at the model as we pipe everything for the prefab to save material and time as we see it work. It's all tested in the shop, cut, cradled. The drawings are coordinated, and most jobs we do our company does the fitting and HVAC as well. In terms of prefab, it's a process, we've failed before, and strive to increase productivity and percision.


that is some extremely good looking work. Bim drawings are nice but the clash meetings suck. The last hospital job I ran was all bim and we sat threw several meetings. The first one was from 10:00 to 5:00. That sucked hashing out minor one inch collisions. But it did work well. Again thumbs up on your work.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> cast with no-hubs would make that job a
> breeze compaired to all the copper involved....
> 
> 
> ...


Off 2"??? Well, why, that's where the pipe strecther tool comes in!


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> Off 2"??? Well, why, that's where the pipe strecther tool comes in!












Or they just start moving walls or making the rooms bigger to fit the plumber's pre-fab.


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## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

Tommy plumber said:


> Or they just start moving walls or making the rooms bigger to fit the plumber's pre-fab.


:laughing: That's funny right there... 
2" off? That's when pre-fab become re-fab


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

sparky said:


> I guarantee something will be off somewhere then they will start pointing fingers,that a lot of money in copper for many mistakes to be made!!!!


if they are using gps and bim drawings the only way they will be off is if they change the drawing. It's very accurate. I seen where they done wall layout with gps. Dam thing works. Looks like a guy from the movie ghostbusters but it worked.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Finished. With one.


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## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

That's purty... Reminds me of the old days. Are the steel riser clamps temporary? or are they copper? Looks like steel in the pic. 
I just can't believe there's places that still spec DWV copper.


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## luv2plum (May 16, 2012)

Great looking work, you should be proud. 
If I am looking at it right, it looks like one waterline for each lav, is it tempered water into sensor faucets?

Just 89 to go!


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

luv2plum said:


> Great looking work, you should be proud. If I am looking at it right, it looks like one waterline for each lav, is it tempered water into sensor faucets? Just 89 to go!


Yeah, there are mixing valves in the wall (with access panels)


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Rando said:


> That's purty... Reminds me of the old days. Are the steel riser clamps temporary? or are they copper? Looks like steel in the pic. I just can't believe there's places that still spec DWV copper.


Yeah, they back ordered 3" copper coated clamps, so we made this one up and didn't (forgot) to change them on the table. They'll swap them in the field.


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## plumberdave101 (Mar 23, 2014)

Flyout95 said:


> Measure once, cut twice.... or something.


Cut it three times and it's still too short!


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

plumberdave101 said:


> Cut it three times and it's still too short!


I had a piece I cut, was an 1/8 long, trimmed an 1/8 off, still an 1/8 long. Repeat 3 times... Finally the pipe is too short. Cut my original length off a new stick.... Perfect. I was all sorts of confused on that one.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Forgot to post this one.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Flyout95 said:


> Forgot to post this one.


Copper are the worst for venting as well waste..


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Flyout95 said:


> Forgot to post this one.


But it still a hellva job!


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## red_devil (Mar 23, 2011)

We are doing the exact same thing for a stadium. 400 toilets all on carriers. Prefabbed in our shop. All mounted on steel, welded etc. All that you do is show up with about 5 banks on a trailor, off load with a forklift or zoom boom. Drop, line up and bolt to concrete. Piece of cake. All bims and 3d, no fuss, no issues.


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## dannyoung85 (Oct 8, 2013)

wyrickmech said:


> if they are using gps and bim drawings the only way they will be off is if they change the drawing. It's very accurate. I seen where they done wall layout with gps. Dam thing works. Looks like a guy from the movie ghostbusters but it worked.


 I've bid a few jobs where BIM was required and it looks like the process would save a lot of headaches in the field. I was wondering when it comes down to the bottom line, if it is actually cheaper for the Owner because essentially the owner would pay to build the building twice; once on the computer and once in the field. Granted the computer model is cheaper to create.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

dannyoung85 said:


> I've bid a few jobs where BIM was required and it looks like the process would save a lot of headaches in the field. I was wondering when it comes down to the bottom line, if it is actually cheaper for the Owner because essentially the owner would pay to build the building twice; once on the computer and once in the field. Granted the computer model is cheaper to create.


 it was a problem keeping the drawings ahead of the work. It does require long and costly meetings. The project was a 30 bed addition with a new surgery unit. There was some benefit to the larger collisions but there was a lot of 1/2 in to 11/2in collisions that were just common sense. Getting the tinners to move was a ten Minuit debate on how they could not move because of one reason or another.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

dannyoung85 said:


> BIM .


What is this???? BIM????? Never heard of it


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

sparky said:


> What is this???? BIM????? Never heard of it


its 3d mapping


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## dannyoung85 (Oct 8, 2013)

sparky said:


> What is this???? BIM????? Never heard of it


 It's Building Information Modeling. From what I've seen, all of the MEP systems are modeled and overlayed onto the structural model to avoid clashes so that contractors aren't stuck dead in the water waiting on RFI answers when a conflict arises between two systems out in the field.


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## Plumborg (Feb 21, 2013)

Great Lakes, Norman, or O'sullivan?


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Plumborg said:


> Great Lakes, Norman, or O'sullivan?


None of the above. 

The only shop that may compare of those three is GL. Norman and O'Sullivan are tennis shoe shops in disguise.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Flyout95 said:


> Forgot to post this one.


I'm surprised you used air chambers instead of hammer arrestors.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Plumbus said:


> I'm surprised you used air chambers instead of hammer arrestors.


 Illinois inspectors doesn't allow them, cuz they are not 12" long.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

rjbphd said:


> Illinois inspectors doesn't allow them, cuz they are not 12" long.


 ​


> TITLE 77: PUBLIC HEALTH
> CHAPTER I: DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC HEALTH
> SUBCHAPTER r: WATER AND SEWAGE
> PART 890 ILLINOIS PLUMBING CODE
> ...


​ The mechanical hammer arrestors are allowed, but only if you leave an access panel so they can be changed out since they are a mechanical device that can fail.​ So in other words it is preferred to us traditional air chambers which do not require access panels.​


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> The mechanical hammer arrestors are allowed, but only if you leave an access panel so they can be changed out since they are a mechanical device that can fail.
> So in other words it is preferred to us traditional air chambers which do not require access panels.


 Traditional air chambers are useless after 2 weeks..


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> Traditional air chambers are useless after 2 weeks..


If that long. Based on gravity, which valve might be open, how the chambers are positioned, and any number of other science/engineering factors that I have limited understanding of.... I assume all chambers to be full of water as soon as the water is turned on.

If air chambers can keep the water sealed out for any amount of time whatsoever, why is there a concern for sprinkler heads coming off risers that go nowhere else? They are said to accumulate stagnant water. If air chambers really work, shouldn't a fire riser off the potable water system just be a really big air chamber?


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> [/LEFT]
> The mechanical hammer arrestors are allowed, but only if you leave an access panel so they can be changed out since they are a mechanical device that can fail.​ So in other words it is preferred to us traditional air chambers which do not require access panels.​




This one says, according ASSE 1010, it doesn't need a panel. 
http://www.siouxchief.com/docs/defa...ers---hydrarester-and-minirester.pdf?sfvrsn=8​


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

rjbphd said:


> Traditional air chambers are useless after 2 weeks..





plbgbiz said:


> If that long. Based on gravity, which valve might be open, how the chambers are positioned, and any number of other science/engineering factors that I have limited understanding of.... I assume all chambers to be full of water as soon as the water is turned on.
> 
> If air chambers can keep the water sealed out for any amount of time whatsoever, why is there a concern for sprinkler heads coming off risers that go nowhere else? They are said to accumulate stagnant water. If air chambers really work, shouldn't a fire riser off the potable water system just be a really big air chamber?


 So I guess the reason all the buildings I have done plumbing in that doesn't have any water hammer noises must have the mechanical air chambers. Oh wait a minute, they all don't, they have standard air chambers and seem to work fine.

I have had calls where people lived in their home for 20+ years never had water hammer, but just recently started having it. I come in drain the whole system down and repressurized it all and problem solved. Guess these jobs are a fluke.

Another example my brother took out old galvanized pipes in my mothers laundry room which also feeds the back bathroom. He left out air chambers. She had very sever water hammer. I went in and installed air chambers and she has not had a problem since, this was 25 years ago. Again must be a fluke.



Plumbus said:


> This one says, according ASSE 1010, it doesn't need a panel.
> [URL="http://www.siouxchief.com/docs/default-source/spec-sheets/specs-sheets-supply/650-and-660-series---water-hammer-arresters---hydrarester-and-minirester.pdf?sfvrsn=8"]http://www.siouxchief.com/docs/default-source/spec-sheets/specs-sheets-supply/650-and-660-series---water-hammer-arresters---hydrarester-and-minirester.pdf?sfvrsn=8[/URL]


 So when one of the seal inside these mechanical water hammer arresters fail, a person has to open the wall. What if it is behind a marble wall?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Don't know SR, maybe they are a fluke. Or maybe the ones that don't work are a fluke. Why does a fire riser fill with water and an air chamber does not? Why after thirty years of living with a 2-handle tub faucet does a person suddenly notice temp changes when a toilet flushes? I don't have an answer for that either but I hear it from customers on occasion. Mechanically speaking, it should have been a problem from day one. 

My personal opinion is the air chambers work for some because that is what they expect to work or that they are used to them rather than they actually work. Again, just my opinion. Some people become so accustomed to tankless WH functionality that they never have an issue with or even notice the hot-water-sandwich. Does that mean it is not part of the way that system operates? I have not plumbed in your environment so my opinion on air chamber functionality is at best, limited. I've seen a lot of them around and removed them to be replaced by accessible arrestors. They are most common in older commercial/industrial buildings here. Once in a while I still run into them in homes built in the 20's, 30's, and 40's.

As far as concealing a mechanical arrestor goes, no way would I do that no matter what the specs say. Any mechanical device can fail and should be accessible for maintenance or replacement.


Man, this thread is officially way of the op's track.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Air are stores have been put in walls around here for years. There has been a few times that I have had to open a wall but very few. For the arrestor to work to its highest potential it needs to be as close as possible to the source of the shock. That's why engineers will want them in walls. The whole reason we had to start using them was because we cannot have dead water beyond 12inches the air chambers were all longer than the 12in rule.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

As this part of the Illinois plumbing code states air chambers at the fixtures must be at least the same size pipe and at least 12" long. Air chambers on risers must be at least the same size pipe and 24" long.



> 1) Air Chambers − An air chamber that is installed in a fixture supply shall be at least 12 inches in length and the same diameter as the fixture supply, or an air chamber with an equivalent volume may be used. An air chamber that is installed in a riser shall be at least 24 inches in length and at least the same size as the riser.


 With that said the places I have been that had bad water hammer from the start also had air chambers that were too short. In most cases 6" long or the next pipe size smaller.

As for fires sprinkler systems the system doesn't get water logged. The trapped air is always trapped till it is bleed off when a fire sprinkler head opens up. Think about it, when you shut a building down to do a repair and all the water bleeds down, then when you turn it back on and open a fixture what do you get? Lots of air.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Then why are sprinkler heads not allowed to be on dead end runs if all they get is air? 

Not just messing with you SR. I'm trying to learn something here.

I don't get why air chambers are assumed to lock out water while sprinkler risers are assumed to take on water. I just don't see the difference. I don't think the water or physics sees the difference either.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> Then why are sprinkler heads not allowed to be on dead end runs if all they get is air? Not just messing with you SR. I'm trying to learn something here. I don't get why air chambers are assumed to lock out water while sprinkler risers are assumed to take on water. I just don't see the difference. I don't think the water or physics sees the difference either.


most wet systems have inspector test lines at the end of a long runs this way you can purge most of the air out. Some systems will even take a inspectors test line off of the main at the top so to remove air.


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