# Circ System Pinholes



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Okay so I don't TOTALLY funk up the other thread...Here goes.

I hear all kinds of stuff about over sizing the pump, galvanic reactions, etc, etc.

Here is a real world case study for everyone to ponder.

2 houses built in the same month, 2 houses apart, same side of street, same water pressure, same water purveyor, same floor plan, same plumber and same amount of copper used within reason. Both have circ systems, properly sized bronze body pumps with bronze flanges. Water heaters are mfg within the same month on the same assembly line (both completed on Tuesday, no worries with the Monday/Friday syndrome), and proper grounding. Oh, and each pump has a timer that is set to come on at 4:45am and off at 9am back on at 5pm and off again at 10pm.

House A has had 3 pinholes repaired and house B has had none.


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

Location/proximity of pinholes?


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Titan Plumbing said:


> Okay so I don't TOTALLY funk up the other thread...Here goes.
> 
> I hear all kinds of stuff about over sizing the pump, galvanic reactions, etc, etc.
> 
> ...


What's the question?


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Pinholes occurred between last fixture and the pump.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Killertoiletspider said:


> What's the question?


Why did one develop pinholes and the other has not?


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Titan Plumbing said:


> Why did one develop pinholes and the other has not?


The apprentice cutting the pipe in house A did not know what a reamer was, or how to properly use one.


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

It's because you used galvy clips instead of copper or insulated.

Kidding aside, that's the first thing I'd look for, contact with white metal.

Same water, same usage, same everything, but obviously something isn't the same.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Killertoiletspider said:


> The apprentice cutting the pipe in house A did not know what a reamer was, or how to properly use one.


Neither house had the copper reamed as is the case most everywhere, even though we won't admit it.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Titan Plumbing said:


> Neither house had the copper reamed as is the case most everywhere, even though we won't admit it.


Then the apprentice mangled the hell out of the pipe as he was cutting it, it's real easy to do with a Ridgid #10 cutter.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Killertoiletspider said:


> What's the question?


One have a burgler alarm and other one don't ??


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

That's it, I'm frustrated, let's lynch Titan.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Titan Plumbing said:


> Neither house had the copper reamed as is the case most everywhere, even though we won't admit it.


 Shall be reamed !


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## Nate21 (Nov 25, 2011)

You can almost alway tell if the pinhole accrued as a result of the pipe not being properly reamed. The pinhole always seems to show up within 1"-2" of a fitting... Another reason is impurities in the copper, different countries....


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Lack of proper reaming has a significant affect on pipe, compounded by flow rates. In other words a 3/4" pipe that isnt reamed wont have a problem with a consistant 2 GPM flow created by a circ system.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Do the houses have wye strainers to hinder particulates? If not it could easily be that the water heater in the pin holed house became a vat for particulate storage that is scouring the return loop. This could have happened easily either at the factory or the job site and has nothing to do with the date of manufacture.

That, or the new construction plumber or apprentice used to much C-flux on the return loop


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

GrumpyPlumber said:


> It's because you used galvy clips instead of copper or insulated.
> 
> Kidding aside, that's the first thing I'd look for, contact with white metal.
> 
> Same water, same usage, same everything, but obviously something isn't the same.


Contact with white metal I don't think would cause a leak more than a few inches from the contact point . At least in my experience with copper I have made numerous repairs due to the copper touching metal and the leak at least in my experience is with in a few inches of the contact point.


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

http://www.nsf.gov/eng/engnews/2004/waterlink.jsp


good read about pinhole leaks


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## liquid plumber (Nov 25, 2011)

perhaps the water heaters are set at a different temp? could thermal expansion have an effect? the copper pipe used came from diffetrent lot#s or diffrent mfr?


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Dos either house treat their water?


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

playme1979 said:


> Contact with white metal I don't think would cause a leak more than a few inches from the contact point . At least in my experience with copper I have made numerous repairs due to the copper touching metal and the leak at least in my experience is with in a few inches of the contact point.


Just did a recirc line last month, another plumber had changed the pump about 5 years ago - from the circ atop the W/H ran up 3' to the joists, then another 3' horizontal a D-wll screw had come in contact with the pipe - rotted out all the way to the W/H, patina and dezinking (white powder on the brass) all along the length from screw to heater.


Though I understand your point, std wear/tear from turbulence after four years just doesn't seem like it could be the sole reason for pinholes.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

playme1979 said:


> http://www.nsf.gov/eng/engnews/2004/waterlink.jsp
> 
> 
> good read about pinhole leaks


 






Interesting article. The author speaks of aluminum and chlorine as possible causes for the 'poorly understood phenomenon' of pinholes in copper.

Sounds like the jury is still out on this issue.

I was told by an ex-manager that it was the flux used years ago that had zinc chloride in it, which wasn't water soluble.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

JK949 said:


> Dos either house treat their water?


Both on Approved Municipal Water purveyor. (Large municipality)


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

It seems that hard or soft water, recirc lines leak, most always the problem of a leak! It is also not considered either as hot or cold but as warm water. I think its facinating how little time is spent on the issue and the topic. Always the recirc is the first to go! I Think research and also codes need to look at this more seriously also recirc sizing specs!


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## Pinnacle (May 16, 2012)

from now on on recirc lines everyone use wirsbo problem solved! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::yes::yes::yes:


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Pinnacle said:


> from now on on recirc lines everyone use wirsbo problem solved! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::yes::yes::yes:


 Did you steal TPW lady helper???


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Pinnacle said:


> from now on on recirc lines everyone use wirsbo problem solved! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::yes::yes::yes:


 Did you ream the fittings first?:laughing:


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## Pinnacle (May 16, 2012)

pilot light said:


> Did you ream the fittings first?:laughing:


I didnt plumb the building and do you ream your pipe? lol highly doubt it!


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## Pinnacle (May 16, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Did you steal TPW lady helper???


oops didnt know there was another plumber with it :furious:


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Pinnacle said:


> from now on on recirc lines everyone use wirsbo problem solved! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::yes::yes::yes:


 The wirsbo fittings? lol!:laughing:


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## Pinnacle (May 16, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Did you steal TPW lady helper???


if someone has this pic im gonna have to take a picture of my gf holding my pipe wrench lol


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> Interesting article. The author speaks of aluminum and chlorine as possible causes for the 'poorly understood phenomenon' of pinholes in copper.
> 
> Sounds like the jury is still out on this issue.
> 
> I was told by an ex-manager that it was the flux used years ago that had zinc chloride in it, which wasn't water soluble.



Chlorides are very corrosive, ask any CSST rep. You aren't supposed to use pipe dopes with CSST because some sealants contain chlorides and that eats through the stainless steel tubing. Sources of chlorides include chlorine from municipal water, and water softeners. (sodium chloride and potassium chloride)
I wouldn't be surprised if it was in the flux too. 

Try testing the chlorine levels in each house's water.


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## Pinnacle (May 16, 2012)

pilot light said:


> The wirsbo fittings? lol!:laughing:


ohh yeaaaa i keep a dremmel in my tool bag every cut i make i ream it! :whistling2::no:


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Pinnacle said:


> ohh yeaaaa i keep a dremmel in my tool bag every cut i make i ream it! :whistling2::no:


 haha! :thumbsup:


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

we are running into this alot here in Bakersfield, CA lately. Houses plumbed with type M copper getting pinholes. Water quality not so good, so, water provider amping up chlorine. Chlorine is eating into copper. We are supposed to push softeners to fix this, don't know for sure myself if this is the answer, since water treatment is a new to me thing. I get it, I understand how it works. But need to verify for myself it pulls out the chlorine. I was told green specs in aerators are an indication some chemical is corroding the piping.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Softeners do NOT remove chlorine, they ADD chlorides through ion-exchange.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

JK949 said:


> Softeners do NOT remove chlorine, they ADD chlorides through ion-exchange.


Exactly- we use a carbon tank to remove the chlorine present in the city water before it goes through the softener. Chlorine will actually destroy the resin beads in the softener.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> Exactly- we use a carbon tank to remove the chlorine present in the city water before it goes through the softener. Chlorine will actually destroy the resin beads in the softener.
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


 Not if it use Zeolite from Water Right .. chlorine will not destroy, in fact, the unit have self made chlorine and injected same every time when regenrated to control sulfer and iron bacterica.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Not if it use Zeolite from Water Right .. chlorine will not destroy, in fact, the unit have self made chlorine and injected same every time when regenrated to control sulfer and iron bacterica.


Never heard of zeolite before, you got a link to the Manurfacture website?

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> Never heard of zeolite before, you got a link to the Manurfacture website?
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


 Water Right is the ONLY company have it. Why? Because they are the only one that make them. Google Water Right...
Their water treatment can remove iron, hardness, sulfer and santizined the unit all in one pass.. I know as I have one in my home and sell them as well. They only sell to licensed plumbers and well contractors only. You won't see them in big box stores.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Water Right is the ONLY company have it. Why? Because they are the only one that make them. Google Water Right...
> Their water treatment can remove iron, hardness, sulfer and santizined the unit all in one pass.. I know as I have one in my home and sell them as well. They only sell to licensed plumbers and well contractors only. You won't see them in big box stores.


Hmm that's cool stuff, that's probably why ive never heard of the stuff then if only one company makes it.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> Hmm that's cool stuff, that's probably why ive never heard of the stuff then if only one company makes it.
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


 Beware of other companies that claimed to have Zeolite which they DON'T!!.. Water Right is really popular in Fla as for smelling water problem.


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## east-indy (Mar 11, 2012)

Pipe wear due to turbulance on running water. Notice the lip causing the turbulance.


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## east-indy (Mar 11, 2012)

Pin Hole


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## Pipeman77 (Jun 2, 2012)

*circ pump*

Are these variable speed pumps? Is one pumping more gpm then the other? Is there a chemical being stored in one room that isn't being stored in the other?


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Single speed pumps. Everything is exactly the same with exception of the homeowners and house color.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

rjbphd said:


> Not if it use Zeolite from Water Right .. chlorine will not destroy, in fact, the unit have self made chlorine and injected same every time when regenrated to control sulfer and iron bacterica.


The point is to REMOVE chlorine if it is found in the municipal supplied water. Different methods for different needs.


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

ok, will talk to boss tomorrow about this. Like I said, water treatment is new to me. If a water softener does not remove chlorine, then, we need to adjust. Thanks.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

JK949 said:


> The point is to REMOVE chlorine if it is found in the municipal supplied water. Different methods for different needs.


 This it on private well water and the chlorine will not reach as high as injected city water.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

Pinnacle said:


> I didnt plumb the building and do you ream your pipe? lol highly doubt it!


seriously?!


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

love2surf927 said:


> seriously?!


It makes a big difference on recirc lines


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## MasterPlumber#1 (Aug 26, 2012)

Titan Plumbing said:


> Okay so I don't TOTALLY funk up the other thread...Here goes.
> 
> I hear all kinds of stuff about over sizing the pump, galvanic reactions, etc, etc.
> 
> ...


Possible the anode rod faulty in water heater which in certain condition can cause acidic water in tank causing pin holes. Just a thought.


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## Adamche (Feb 10, 2012)

MasterPlumber#1 said:


> Possible the anode rod faulty in water heater which in certain condition can cause acidic water in tank causing pin holes. Just a thought.


Intro????


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

What make you number one? Sorry, had to use the small one til you post an intro as request..


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## Adamche (Feb 10, 2012)

4.45 am RJ, Bit early mate!


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Adamche said:


> 4.45 am RJ, Bit early mate!


 No coffee here...


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

east-indy said:


> Pipe wear due to turbulance on running water. Notice the lip causing the turbulance.


 


East indy..I too am seeing this crap all over Indianapolis right now...

There are a lot of variables that can cause one house to totally pit up and the one a block away to be completely pit free...

something that folks have not mentioned yet is a lot of times when I see pipe this bad, when you cut the line you might notice a little "electrical spark" jump across the pipe when you take it out......

I would gamble on the problem being a poor electrical ground in one of the homes and a good ground in the other one that has brought on this problem....I am 100% sure that you have across the top of the water heater a couple of grounding clamps.....going all the way back to the electrical box....

perhaps the main water line for the home is poly or pex which is no 
backup ground for the house ground at all.. 

or another good gamble is the electrician in one home knew what he was doing and in the other home he was a dumb-ass and did not ground the home properly... 
also one of the homes could be getting current jumping across the 
ground from a home near by....

anyway...however the power is getting into the system,
 this has a tendencey to aggressively attack the 
copper in the plumbing system and the weakest spot in the 
home would be in the recirc line...

and then you add soft water to the copper mixed with 
chlorine and a little electrical juice and you got something 
similar to a "potato battery" in the heater and system.....


.here is a good article from 2007on the subject from my web site...
you have to wait a minute 
for it to load up then hit the* impatient* button on the right

http://web.archive.org/web/20070717.../grounding/electric_shocking_truth_grounding/






Redwood too has a good article on his site which I stole and put on my site.


http://411plumb.com/danger-lurks-on-the-water-service-main-for-the-plumber


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## rizob (Nov 14, 2011)

Wow guys! We are really lucky to have a person like this in our forum. Lets make this guy king of the forum? He's definitely better than any of us. Can't you tell?!!! All hail the king!

I'm thinking grounding issue too. Or bad pipe. Maybe the other one will start a year from now because it was two different runs of pipe and they set the extrusion machine up different. Or maybe some crack head hid some lead in his bucket when he went to the scrap yard and they didn't catch it. Next thing you know it's hanging in some poor ladies house and you have to explain why it went bad. See it all goes back to the war on drugs!

I'm a little confused about the chlorine messing up water softeners. I did water conditioning every day for over 5 years. We didn't do plumbing. I'm also very well read on the subject of water conditioning. But I definitely don't know it all. We would sometimes tell customers that had a bad H2S and refused to spend money for a system to fix it to put a cup or 2 of bleach in thier salt tank when they fill thier salt. (Only if they didn't use iron out) It never seemed to mess up the resin. I live in new jersey so that should tell you I know about smelly water!! lol

It's been a few years but I think that the resin we used was named zelite or somthing like it. Sounds like the same stuff you are talking about. We would get it by the pallet. I'm not sure if it's OK to say the name of where we got it from but if anyone is interested let me know.

I always figured the bleach (weak chlorine) would sanitize the system when it backwashed. This is the first I ever heard about it messing resin up. But if im wrong I would like to read more about it.

I know I hijacked the thread. The pin holes are from not reaming......Does that make it any better? HAHA


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

rizob said:


> Wow guys! We are really lucky to have a person like this in our forum. Lets make this guy king of the forum? He's definitely better than any of us. Can't you tell?!!! All hail the king!
> 
> I'm thinking grounding issue too. Or bad pipe. Maybe the other one will start a year from now because it was two different runs of pipe and they set the extrusion machine up different. Or maybe some crack head hid some lead in his bucket when he went to the scrap yard and they didn't catch it. Next thing you know it's hanging in some poor ladies house and you have to explain why it went bad. See it all goes back to the war on drugs!
> 
> ...


 We are zig zagging this thread here... about the water softener resins , if its a cheapo resins, yes the chlorine will ruin it.. better one like c-14 or something like that are more chlorine reisit.. NEVER use iron out or the like in WATER RIGHT water treatment unit bedded with Zeolite... the ONLY water treatment company that have Zeolite.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Chlorimines are hard on resin as well, gotta make sure you install a catalytic carbon tank before the softener.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## MasterPlumber#1 (Aug 26, 2012)

Adamche said:


> Intro????


Just thought I'd drop in tell everyone how it feels to be number one. 
Not to bad. Not bad at all. Well salute to all I'm back off to work my plumbing magic. Thanks for all the support everyone here is number one in my book. Even if your really just number two or fifty or even zero your my hero.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

MasterPlumber#1 said:


> Just thought I'd drop in tell everyone how it feels to be number one.
> Not to bad. Not bad at all. Well salute to all I'm back off to work my plumbing magic. Thanks for all the support everyone here is number one in my book. Even if your really just number two or fifty or even zero your my hero.


 Wtf?? blinks????


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

MasterPlumber#1 said:


> Just thought I'd drop in tell everyone how it feels to be number one.
> Not to bad. Not bad at all. Well salute to all I'm back off to work my plumbing magic. Thanks for all the support everyone here is number one in my book. Even if your really just number two or fifty or even zero your my hero.


 :ban:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

MasterPlumber#1 said:


> Just thought I'd drop in tell everyone how it feels to be number one.
> Not to bad. Not bad at all. Well salute to all I'm back off to work my plumbing magic. Thanks for all the support everyone here is number one in my book. Even if your really just number two or fifty or even zero your my hero.


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## Brian Ayres (Sep 9, 2012)

I deal with this problem often. There were several posts here that are possible causes of the difference between one house and another.

1. Reaming pipe. Usually that's an obvious diagnosis when the leak is near a joint. 

2. Velocity corrosion erosion. Most of the time it's caused when some knucklehead thinks bigger is better and throws a 3/4" 1/6Hp pump bushed onto a 1/2" line...  But...... The other common cause is high water pressure. When water pressure exceeds 80 PSI you get high velocity erosion not due to under sizing or big pumps, but simply due to the GPM flow through the pipe when the fixtures are opened fully.....
Be sure to check the water pressure.

3. Electrical grounding. I have fixed a dozen or so main lines just outside the foundation buried in the ground in the last ten years. 5-6 threw sparks when I cut the piping with my sawzall...I had the customers call their electricians to check their ground, and ground their panel to rods driven into the ground instead of grounding to the water system.

I typically run recirc lines in 3/4" now to reduce the velocity of the flow in the pipe. Add circuit setters and the smallest pump that gets the water flowing.

The water chemistry issues are something I recently have been investigating and the links provided are helpful. I will post some pictures of some recent leaks I've dealt with on copper that don't involve a recirc line. 
I'm thinking a grounding issue?

Great discussion. Thanks for bringing it up. 

Brian


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