# ventless gas appliances



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Had two calls today in which the customer complained of "an odor" and "a taste". One was a wall furnace, the other was gas logs. They only smell it when it operates. My sense of smell is very poor (I have not missed the irony) and I could not find anything wrong with the wall furnace. My other plumber was looking at the gas logs at another house. No discernable leaks. This is not the first time I have encountered this complaint. What am I missing? I must confess that I don't really understand ventless combustion as well as I should. When natural gas burns it produces combustion gasses right? What is the difference between gas fixtures that must be vented and those that are not required to be, is it simply the lower btu ratings of ventless appliances? What happens to the combustion gasses in a ventless appliance?

I need a better understanding of what is going on here.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

How is the combustion?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

smellslike$tome said:


> Had two calls today in which the customer complained of "an odor" and "a taste". One was a wall furnace, the other was gas logs. They only smell it when it operates. My sense of smell is very poor (I have not missed the irony) and I could not find anything wrong with the wall furnace. My other plumber was looking at the gas logs at another house. No discernable leaks. This is not the first time I have encountered this complaint. What am I missing? I must confess that I don't really understand ventless combustion as well as I should. When natural gas burns it produces combustion gasses right? What is the difference between gas fixtures that must be vented and those that are not required to be, is it simply the lower btu ratings of ventless appliances? What happens to the combustion gasses in a ventless appliance?
> 
> I need a better understanding of what is going on here.


 Most gas logs require a specific layout of the logs and are not suppose to be IN the flame or it will soot and the logs will burn dirty and soot causing an oder.I can smell the left overs from combustion on any appliance and thats not vented and I DO NOT like it. I had some unvented gas logs once and they made me sick everytime I used them from the smell. Did her problem just start? I know you know heaters stink when they are first used from the dust and lint burning off. Also if the appliances are new there is a break in period where it will burn the new off and you get a smell from it. They are suppose to have oxygen depletion sensors on them. A gas stove doesn't have a vent and I can smell it in a house when I go in I'm very sensitive to it.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

The wall furnance should have a heat exchanger in it.....I hope you checked it for holes. I personally will not work on anything with a heat exchanger in it,I feel like thats best left to the HVAC guys. The combustion gas from a non vented heater is in the room! I believe its a combination of a low BTU,clean burning and the addition of a oxygen depletion safety device and several thermal breaks for over heat protection.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

The units built in a box, I'll hook up. 

But the ones that are separate that get installed into a fireplace I demand a working chimney flue. 


Those ventless create 1 gallon of moisture per hour. ????


A flame consumes oxygen, so when you hear of homes over time causing death by CO2, how can these units have such a presence without considering the oxygen depletion. 


Want a pretty fire, catch your garbage can on fire in the back yard, look through the window.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> The units built in a box, I'll hook up.
> 
> But the ones that are separate that get installed into a fireplace I demand a working chimney flue.
> 
> ...


 Gas cooking stoves burn more than any gas logs ever dreamed about and they are not vented. Relax


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Protech said:


> How is the combustion?


Seems normal, nice blue flame.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I've been in houses that had gas space heaters in every room buring wide open...the living room had a vented floor standing furnace...they had the stove and oven on for more heat and the water heater vent was removed on the back porch that had plastic wrapped around it to keep their plants from freezing. My eyes immediately started to water and my nose started running...about 5 minutes later I got a headache that was mild but steady for about 4 hrs...even tho I was only in there about 15 minutes. The only thing that saved these people life is the place was a shack and basically had holes in the ceiling and floor and no insulation at all anywhere.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Gas cooking stoves burn more than any gas logs ever dreamed about and they are not vented. Relax


 
Bullshit. 


Those are intermittent use. People don't fall asleep in front of their stove, go to bed with them on. I'm talking about continous flame for heating.


And, there's a vent hood directly above them, whether it's recirculatory or not. 


Same principle of the freestanding kerosene heater ~ oxygen consuming and air tight rooms start losing their % of oxygen levels to sustain human life.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> 
> Those are intermittent use. People don't fall asleep in front of their stove, go to bed with them on. I'm talking about continous flame for heating.
> ...


How long does it take to cook a turkey in the oven? 4 or 5 hours maybe longer I've never done it. The venthood doesn't matter because the stove CAN be used without using the vent. The ventless gas logs have oxygen depletion systems built into them and over heat protection. Your done roast duck:jester:


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

TheMaster;78780 said:


> The wall furnance should have a heat exchanger in it.....I hope you checked it for holes. I personally will not work on anything with a heat exchanger in it,I feel like thats best left to the HVAC guys. The combustion gas from a non vented heater is in the room! I believe its a combination of a low BTU,clean burning and the addition of a oxygen depletion safety device and several thermal breaks for over heat protection.


Three grid bricks with open flame. Did not see any broken spots, why would it matter anyway? Heater is 2 years old. It was installed in a basement finish. Lady's parents live in the basement and notice nothing. Ho may just be very sensitive to the gases but she says she can smell and taste them upstairs when it's burning. Old folks are oblivious. Dust and lent should burn off quickly shouldn't it? She said she could smell it when I was downstairs checking it out. I smelled nothing, ... not even any money :laughing:.

I really don't like the idea either and I guess this is why the code won't allow anything above 10K btu/hr in a bathroom or bedroom. As for gas stoves yes they are ventless sort of, ... they are all required to have exhaust fans either up or down. I'm pretty sure the primary purpose would be to pull the stinky burnt chicken smoke from the air so it doesn't fill your house but it should pull combustion gases too.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

smellslike$tome said:


> Three grid bricks with open flame. Did not see any broken spots, why would it matter anyway? Heater is 2 years old. It was installed in a basement finish. Lady's parents live in the basement and notice nothing. Ho may just be very sensitive to the gases but she says she can smell and taste them upstairs when it's burning. Old folks are oblivious. Dust and lent should burn off quickly shouldn't it? She said she could smell it when I was downstairs checking it out. I smelled nothing, ... not even any money :laughing:.
> 
> I really don't like the idea either and I guess this is why the code won't allow anything above 10K btu/hr in a bathroom or bedroom. As for gas stoves yes they are ventless sort of, ... they are all required to have exhaust fans either up or down. I'm pretty sure the primary purpose would be to pull the stinky burnt chicken smoke from the air so it doesn't fill your house but it should pull combustion gases too.


 I was talking about a heat exchanger like a cental gas unit has in it. if that heat exchanger has holes in it that means the combustion gas is being pumped in with the duct work. This wouldn't apply to your type of wall heater. if the open flame heats the bricks up then your right,broken or damaged bricks would cause it to burn alittle dirty or alot dirty depending on how bad the damage is. plenty of houses have gas stoves with no vent and just because it has a vent you cannot rely on a person to use it when they use the stove.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I've been in houses that had gas space heaters in every room buring wide open...the living room had a vented floor standing furnace...they had the stove and oven on for more heat and the water heater vent was removed on the back porch that had plastic wrapped around it to keep their plants from freezing. My eyes immediately started to water and my nose started running...about 5 minutes later I got a headache that was mild but steady for about 4 hrs...even tho I was only in there about 15 minutes. The only thing that saved these people life is the place was a shack and basically had holes in the ceiling and floor and no insulation at all anywhere.





TheMaster said:


> How long does it take to cook a turkey in the oven? 4 or 5 hours maybe longer I've never done it. The venthood doesn't matter because the stove CAN be used without using the vent. The ventless gas logs have oxygen depletion systems built into them and over heat protection. Your done roast duck:jester:


 

Okay, which one of the above statements are relating to the dangers of heating devices indoors without proper venting?



Your first statement proves my statement, 


and you're basing a retort on cooking a turkey for 5 hours, once a year. ???


How easy are you going to make this for me? :laughing: 


You're arguing for the sake of arguing, I'm typing for the sake of reality and educating the viewing public. That's why your eyes were tearing and getting a headache...*oxygen depletion. *


*That's my concern. Not intermittent use of a gas stove with a normal venting hood above for removing air. *


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Okay, which one of the above statements are relating to the dangers of heating devices indoors without proper venting?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The heaters i was refering to in my post that made my eyes water and nose run were OLD heaters. Any new ventless heater has an oxygen depletion system on it and are perfectly legal.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> The heaters i was refering to in my post that made my eyes water and nose run were OLD heaters. Any new ventless heater has an oxygen depletion system on it and are perfectly legal.


 

And you're also assuming everyone has this new technology design in homes,

And you're assuming that I've never installed a ventless unit until this new technology, 

And you're assuming that this oxygen depletion system is foolproof. It's not.


People don't go out and buy these units because they now have oxygen depletion systems on them. I get calls, not many for malfunctioning ventless logs and I won't even touch them. Too many parts and nothing at the supply house, contact the mfg. and wait for the brown box to arrive.


Any time you see me jump in a conversation about something relating to issues of safety, I'm not conversing just to be right or exact a statement; it's the design of making sure the viewing public understands the logic/concern/possibility of what can happen with products like these when put in certain situations, degrees of hazard, possible what ifs over time.


My concern is for good cause...why would you have a problem with this is why many are questioning your motives on many threads here lately.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> And you're also assuming everyone has this new technology design in homes,
> 
> And you're assuming that I've never installed a ventless unit until this new technology,
> 
> ...


Nothings fool proof dunbar. Can you name somthing that is? Heaters that do not have oxygen depletion systems on them should be removed from service. people use gas stoves to heat their house all the time in the ghetto and your acting like sombodys gonna die because they have a brand new ventless gas log system. The reason why you get "dead" heater calls is they have so many safetys and the safetys fail SAFE. You admit you dont touch them and I assume you wouldn't install a new one so how many years of experience do you have not touching them? My motives are plain and simple to tell the truth and thats what I'm doing. Your not only arguing with me but every testing lab in the world that has stamped them safe and every dealer that sells them and every gas supplier that supplies gas to them. The ones that are questioning my motives are the ones who I'm constantly correcting their mis-information.
How many house fires are caused by faulty electrical wiring every year? How many people do you see ripping all the wire out of their house and using flaslights? Everything has a risk like having a never ending supply of explosive gas pumped into your house if ONE joint fails. You can calculate risk for everything you do and dying from a malfunctioning gaslog set from oxygen depletion would rank low on the list.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Yikes!!! I wasn't looking to start a pissing match. Everybody take a deep breath.

Ok you guys give each other a big sloppy and make up :laughing:.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

smellslike$tome said:


> Yikes!!! I wasn't looking to start a pissing match. Everybody take a deep breath.
> 
> Ok you guys give each other a big sloppy and make up :laughing:.


 Show me one lie in my above posts and I'll remove it.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Show me one lie in my above posts and I'll remove it.


Well I don't see any so I can't do that.


All I want to know is, ... can't we all just get along?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

smellslike$tome said:


> Well I don't see any so I can't do that.
> 
> 
> All I want to know is, ... can't we all just get along?


 Sure we can but I'm going to post what I believe is the truth. I didn't attack the duck i just roasted it. In an unvented oven .:laughing:


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Seriously though, I think I have the answer I was looking for.

Just because it's ventless doesn't mean there are no combustion gases. Someone has determined that they are emitted at acceptable levels and so these devices have been approved. Some people are especially sensitve to it and so they have a bigger impact on them than others. I don't think I would want one in my house even though they don't seem to bother me.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

One thing that came to mind but is probably not realted is the odor additive in the gas. Just last week the Gas Co. in northern California released a statement that they had added too much odor agent to the gas and customers were complaining of gas leaks when they didn't have them. They would smell odors when using their stoves and other appliances. Like I said, probably a long shot but it just popped into my head when I read your post.





Paul


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## PlumberDave (Jan 4, 2009)

the ones I've seen are called catalyst heaters only exhaust is water vapor.some type of embeded fiber.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

A friend of mine used to own rent subsidised rental properties in an inner city. He had 30 or 40 units. Rowhomes.

Many of them heated the place by running the 4 burner range, all 4 burners, all day, all night. When it got real cold out, the oven was lit, and the oven door open. Ridiculous. Kids all over the place. 

Alot of these units had oil fired boilers. Oil man ain't putting it in the tank without $$$. Gas Co. can not shut you off if its cold out. 

Just my .2


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

rocksteady said:


> One thing that came to mind but is probably not realted is the odor additive in the gas. Just last week the Gas Co. in northern California released a statement that they had added too much odor agent to the gas and customers were complaining of gas leaks when they didn't have them. They would smell odors when using their stoves and other appliances. Like I said, probably a long shot but it just popped into my head when I read your post.Paul


 Interesting, this year we got a letter telling us not to rely on the odor in the gas, as there maybe too little of it.


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## Christina (Jul 14, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Bullshit.
> Those are intermittent use. People don't fall asleep in front of their stove, go to bed with them on. I'm talking about continous flame for heating.
> And, there's a vent hood directly above them, whether it's recirculatory or not.
> Same principle of the freestanding kerosene heater ~ oxygen consuming and air tight rooms start losing their % of oxygen levels to sustain human life.


OK, I am tired so I am not going to write an entire novel. But, I have had several families that when the heaters don't work they will leave the kitchen oven on and cracked to heat the house until the heater can be fixed. Had a new employee that was doing that a few years ago- he couldn't figure out why him & his wife were so sick all the time. When the CO test was ran, my father said it was a miracle they both weren't dead from the CO level in the trailer. So, in that, some _people do leave stoves on and open to heat small residences for means of heat when the regular heater goes out._


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Christina said:


> OK, I am tired so I am not going to write an entire novel. But, I have had several families that when the heaters don't work they will leave the kitchen oven on and cracked to heat the house until the heater can be fixed. Had a new employee that was doing that a few years ago- he couldn't figure out why him & his wife were so sick all the time. When the CO test was ran, my father said it was a miracle they both weren't dead from the CO level in the trailer. So, in that, some _people do leave stoves on and open to heat small residences for means of heat when the regular heater goes out._


Clearly though those appliances are not designed for that purpose. Cooking for an hour or even two is nothing at all like running every burner with the door open to the oven 24 hours a day.

This thread is eye opening for me. I've received this complaint in the past but usually associated with gas logs.

I think it's time for me to finally break down and invest in that CO sniffer as well as a gas sniffer. I know we talked about the gas sniffer recently in another thread but who likes what brands/models and what sort of cost should I expect for both the CO and the ng. Will gas sniffers only detect a particular type of gas or will they sniff both ng and propane. Yes, I can do my own research but I value personal experience from my professional plumbing brothers and sisters.

What would you expect the solutions/options to be for someone who has a ventless appliance that is causing them some unwanted physical symptoms? Obviously, we could remove the appliance and terminate the line. Does anyone have any other possibility that might allow them to keep the appliance but relieve the symptoms?


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## Pipedoc (Jun 14, 2009)

Smells, the gas sniffers will detect something like ten different combustible gasses.


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## amh112181 (Sep 3, 2009)

Ask if there is any work being done (painting staining etc) The unvented wall heater will be bring out a smell of the chemicals in the air.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> I think it's time for me to finally break down and invest in that CO sniffer as well as a gas sniffer.


 

There's nothing wrong with this idea at all, but spend the good money for one. Don't buy a cheap one. 


Also, whenever you have a real dangerous situation, back yourself up with the local gas utility company and let them come out with their testers. 


They get theirs calibrated monthly, they are around $1800 that detect 200+ different situations, even has a pump built-in to suck in.

The above reasoning is what has kept me from buying one because a lawyer could rip you apart on determining how effective or accurate one of those are that either didn't cost a lot of money or wasn't calibrated correctly.

Meaning, it might overlook something because another known gas/fume in the air is masking it, or moist air, heat, humidity condition. Lots of variables I dont to have my nutz on a table for someone to smash when something goes BOOM! Or something gets worse and wasn't detected.


The gas utility company has deeper pockets than I'll ever have.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Christina said:


> OK, I am tired so I am not going to write an entire novel. But, I have had several families that when the heaters don't work they will leave the kitchen oven on and cracked to heat the house until the heater can be fixed. Had a new employee that was doing that a few years ago- he couldn't figure out why him & his wife were so sick all the time. When the CO test was ran, my father said it was a miracle they both weren't dead from the CO level in the trailer. So, in that, some _people do leave stoves on and open to heat small residences for means of heat when the regular heater goes out._


 

It's all bad, real bad and that's why I brought it up. If homes were air tight and people constantly not moving through the doors there'd be dead bodies everywhere. 

Happens more than people know.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

With all of this energy conservation and super tight "green" houses, it's no wonder that people feel lousy. You NEED clean fresh air. 

My house was built in the 60's. When I feel the occasional cold draft in the winter, I know that I have some fresh air in the house. I'll pay a few dollars more for the gas bill. 

If I ever moved into a newer "tight" house, The first thing I would do is install an air to air heat exchanger. They sure are pricey, but worth it, imo. Or just open a window:laughing:


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## Ashleymc (Nov 14, 2009)

*Wouldnt bet my life on an oxygen depletion sensor!*

Im pretty sure theres a nationally acceptable max of around 30,000 input btu to go ventless..When nat or lpg gas is burned without a vent, ALOT of condensation and byproducts swirl around the closed in area..there ok for porches and places that are not airtight..
Id never use one for sure anywhere..or a kerosene heater.

I spent the extra $$ and time to install direct vent gas fireplace and a direct vent stove at cottage..The stove looks great and gives off alot of heat..
The outgoing gases warm the incoming fresh air as its a sealed combustion unit..no worries at all there..

I would never install for profit a ventless unit..But i do hookup gas 4 burner ranges and i think they are right there at 30,000 btu input..
Uninformed customers use the gas range for cooking AND ventfree stoves/fireplaces at same time..bad bad bad
And they dont know what a CO detector is..God watches out for children and fools...i guess:yes:


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