# Should I change jobs? (warning, novel enclosed)



## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Hey guys, I haven't been around here much lately but I'm at a crossroads in my career. I know a lot of you have probably been in this situation and was hoping you could give me some advice or works of encouragement/discouragement. 

I've been with the same company for six years now, my entire plumbing career. I've done about three years of new construction and three years of service with them. I currently do service and am trying to stick to it as I like it better though I occasionally still do new work or renovations when they need help or service gets slow. I like working at this company and with few exceptions they treat me pretty well in every way except salary. The other employees have been there 16, 10, 4 and 1 year so we are pretty close. I was just offered a job by another company and am on the fence over whether or not I want to move. I'm putting together a list of comparisons to try and decide if I should make a move or not. That's listed below but it's pretty long. 

My main reason for thinking about leaving comes down to of course money. I feel like I have nowhere left to go with this company and moving on might be the only way I can get on with my life and hopefully some day own a house and support a family. I want to work hard, learn and grow to achieve my dreams. 

My biggest reservation is getting burned by this new place who would be adding me as an additional service tech. I'm worried they might hire me then realize they don't really have the work for another truck on the road and I'd find myself out of work.

What would you do in my shoes, move on and hope for the best, leave well enough alone and stay where you are, talk to your current employer about the situation (not much is likely to come of it) or something else?


So heres my list:

My current employer will keep me around if work is slow and guarantee 40 hour weeks. They do frequently pay us to sit around the office for a couple hours a day. When things were really bad they paid us to sit around for days on end. Part of me feels guilty and like I owe them for this. My prospective employer will send you home without pay if their is no work.

My current employer will not pay time and a half for overtime, they pay regular time in cash. This is killing me when I go to apply for a mortgage. The loan officer told me I can afford it and should qualify but cash income obviously can't be counted. My prospective employer will pay overtime at the standard time and a half rate on the books. 

My current employer refuses to pay us prevailing wage for municipal jobs. My prospective employer will pay prevailing wage but does really doesn't do municipal jobs. It annoys me to know we're being shortchanged but it isn't the end of the world. 

My current employer has little to no interest in providing any training. My prospective employer will pay for training and seminars they deem beneficial to them. They won't pay my time at the courses but that's okay with me so long as I'm not loosing days and weeks of work to it. I want to learn and expand my knowledge and skills as much as I can. 

My current employer promised me upon starting a week of vacation after a years, two after two years and three after five years. I'm still at one week because "it's not in the budget". My prospective employer offers the same thing but I feel like I'll actually get it. Not the end of the world and they still pay me for days off once my time is used up to an extent. Still it irks me they went back on what I was promised. 

My prospective employer offered me a higher salary, a couple dollars an hour so it's not a huge difference. They say they'll reassess it after three months. I feel like that's a standard line with most employers and the reassessment never happens unless it means less money. But if they did it could mean a decent raise from what I'm getting now. My current employer would probably match what they offered me if I told them I was leaving but I certainly won't be able to move up from there. It's an unknown with my prospective employer where I could go. 

My current employer is a five minute commute, my prospective employer is closer to a twenty minute commute. Not a huge deal and it's actually a nice drive but it's still 40 minutes a day. They do pay you from the time you leave your house to the time you get back while doing on call though. 

Health insurance and benefits are the same with the exception of one additional paid holiday at my perspective employer.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Stay where you are. They guarantee (40) hrs each week? Even if you 'sit around' in the shop? This isn't a difficult decision for me at my keyboard....:no:

Cash *does* count;... for a down payment. Show the mortgage lender your big bank account with the OT cash.....:laughing:


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## plu4you (Oct 2, 2012)

Changing company's always have uncertainty and bad feelings evolved. I changed three company's and never felt right. I started my own company now I'm finally enjoying my time at work. Remember always move up in your carrier and if it evolves changing company's so be it.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

Tommy plumber said:


> Stay where you are. They guarantee (40) hrs each week? Even if you 'sit around' in the shop? This isn't a difficult decision for me at my keyboard....:no:
> 
> Cash does count;... for a down payment. Show the mortgage lender your big bank account with the OT cash.....:laughing:


Cash wouldn't count unless he(the poster) paid tax on it. Think he is paying tax on that cash? Lol

But sure it counts if he wants to pay tax on it.

To the original poster.

I would stay at my current job like Tommy says and try to find the company ways to make/save money even if I spent my off time doing that. Have a talk with your current boss about your concerns about your finances.


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

Your current employer is breaking several laws. For me that is a red flag. There are specific rules in place on municipal projects for a reason and not be used as your employer sees fit. 
The guaranteed 40 is nice but growing and becoming a better plumber is nicer. 
After rereading your post it sounds to me that you have for the most part made your mind up to make a change. Your gut might be right.


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

Marlin said:


> Hey guys, I haven't been around here much lately but I'm at a crossroads in my career. I know a lot of you have probably been in this situation and was hoping you could give me some advice or works of encouragement/discouragement.
> 
> I've been with the same company for six years now, my entire plumbing career. I've done about three years of new construction and three years of service with them. I currently do service and am trying to stick to it as I like it better though I occasionally still do new work or renovations when they need help or service gets slow. I like working at this company and with few exceptions they treat me pretty well in every way except salary. The other employees have been there 16, 10, 4 and 1 year so we are pretty close. I was just offered a job by another company and am on the fence over whether or not I want to move. I'm putting together a list of comparisons to try and decide if I should make a move or not. That's listed below but it's pretty long.
> 
> ...


How do they get around the paying the prevailing wage? I thought that was a labor law. If they are bidding the job at prevailing wage and not paying you prevailing wage you are getting screwed. 

One week after 6 years, that sucks. People wonder why no one wants to get into the trades. Plumbers being treated like laborer's, its sickening. 

Stand up for yourself, if you don't they will walk all over you as long as they can. If your current employer likes you, they will hire you back after you leave, so try someplace else.


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

Sounds like someone is breaking federal law! If they bid it prevailing wage. They have to pay it.. Don't know if I was staying there if I would bring that up. But if I was leaving I may research it for back pay.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

I wouldn't say a word to anybody and I'd just keep my nose to the grindstone and get er done. Next week's labor department audit would be totally coincidental.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

What vibes do you get from each company? My last boss felt "dark" my new boss is "bright" as the simplest way to put it. Your gut is a powerful indicator. Mine tells me I made a good move. Yours will tell you what to do.


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

I have a different take on it. First, not paying prevailing wages is a big no no. Multiple charges, including mail fraud, are charged. He will get hurt bad if audited.
Sounds like your employer's heart is in the right place, but his business head is not.
Here is my suggestion: You write well, and sound educated. No more sitting around when work is slow. Go online, get the next municipal bid package. Do a proper estimate with you coworkers.
Tell your boss to bid it, and you will guarantee the labor will be on budget. He WILL pay prevailing rate.
Everybody wins.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

Just because your current employer doesn't follow the law doesn't mean you have to be a rat.


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

Olemissplumber said:


> Just because your current employer doesn't follow the law doesn't mean you have to be a rat.


Its like giving a homeowner a price and the homeowner decides to only pay half. Getting paid what you earned is not being a rat, that's the companies fault not his.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Whether you choose to stay or go does not seem to be the issue here. The issue is to get paid what you are worth.

Do yourself a favor; write everything down on paper that explains why you should get paid your worth. Then take that paper and you into the owner’s office and present and verify what you are worth. Frequently people ask for more money and when asked why they cannot respond. I show up every day, I do good work are not good enough reasons. How do you affect profit? How do your customers act and react to you? Do customers call in and request you? What is your value to the company?

If you receive no action from your existing employer it is no longer a guess to what you must do. You will know there is no future at your present employer. This will determine your exit strategy. You already know what to expect there and have with your existing company. 

For the second company sit down with them and ask how they determine their lay off strategy. Do they work via merit or longevity? This will help you determine if they are a worthy company to work at. Too few potential employees really understand the luxury you are experiencing. It is you that gets to interview the company versus them interviewing you. You are in a situation where you get to control what you will do. Take hold of the luxury it does not happen that frequently.

Personally I have red flags about their illegal activities that is cheating their employees on wages, retirement, and the government.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Just move on you will be surprised how it will feel to work for somebody that plays by the rules. If your employer stiffed you on prevailing wage I would suggest visiting with the labor and wage department, there is a possibility you may be able to recover all your lost wages. It is better for you to have your money in your pocket instead of a crooked boss buying a new caddy with it!


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Thank you everyone for the replies. 


Cash does not count for anything. I can't put it in the bank because how do I explain it if I get audited? Even if I wanted to pay taxes on it I can't without throwing my employer under the bus when I have to state where the money came from. I want to play by the rules and pay taxes but it's difficult when your employer won't put your overtime on the books and thinks they're doing you a favor by doing it. 


To all those that say throw them to the wolves with the prevailing wage and overtime: 
I really didn't intend for this thread to be about getting back pay or getting revenge. I agreed to the terms when I signed on there. I'm just not the kind of person who is going to throw it back in there faces no matter how much I don't like it. I don't want to burn bridges and I don't see any good coming of me forcing the issue upon them. I'm not going to defend what they do, it's wrong and illegal but I'm certainly not going to be the one who throws the book at them. All I want to do is work hard, improve myself and the company and make money for the both of us. I just want to be given the opportunity to do that.
Sure I could report them and I’d probably get a piece of paper stating they owe me a big chunk of money as would everyone else who works there and has worked there. Faced with a bill and fines of a couple hundred thousand dollars they would probably proceed to declare bankruptcy and open another business in a year. So I don't get a dime out of the deal, I loose my job and I put my fellow employees out of work. 
If they don't go out of business maybe I'll walk away with a nice check but they're going to fire me. Yes, they can't fire me because I ratted them out but they after I did that to them they'll have no problem claiming I was stealing, had a lot of customer complaints, was lazy, etc just to get rid of me. Then I can't use them a reference and every plumber within an hour of here is going to know what I did and not hire me. Good luck to me getting a job after that one. 




Richard Hilliard said:


> Whether you choose to stay or go does not seem to be the issue here. The issue is to get paid what you are worth.
> 
> Do yourself a favor; write everything down on paper that explains why you should get paid your worth. Then take that paper and you into the owner’s office and present and verify what you are worth. Frequently people ask for more money and when asked why they cannot respond. I show up every day, I do good work are not good enough reasons. How do you affect profit? How do your customers act and react to you? Do customers call in and request you? What is your value to the company?
> 
> ...


This sounds like a good plan and you are correct. Whatever happens one way or another I'll still have a job at the end of the week. I just have to figure out which company I can better further myself at. It seems I can go further at this other place but who knows. It's more a question of trading a sure thing for something more uncertain in pursuit of more. I guess the worst that happens is I wind up unemployed in a month. Companies are hiring again and I could probably find another job if I needed to. My financial situation would allow me to be out of work for a few years, even longer with unemployment benefits so it's not like I'll be out on the street if things went sour there and it certainly wouldn't take me years to find another job. 

I think I'll make a list and talk to my employer about it. I'll also make a list of questions for the second company to try and learn more about the position they're in. Of course they claim to have tons of work but who knows. I'd really love to try and talk to some of there workers to see what the place is really about but that's difficult.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

James420 said:


> Its like giving a homeowner a price and the homeowner decides to only pay half. Getting paid what you earned is not being a rat, that's the companies fault not his.


If the homeowner told you he was only going to pay half and you agreed to go along with it until the job was finished and then you tried to make him pay the whole bill and then sued him for the rest. Same thing

The guy knew the deal working for this company about the prevailing wage deal and he stayed there working. That's accepting it. Now that he wants to leave and ratting out his employer now wouldn't be right. 

He has the right attitude about it. If he wants to leave its best just to pack his bags and leave with a handshake.

To the O.P.,
The IRS really doesn't care where you got the money if you pay tax on it,especially so when you list your occupation as a legal trade. It's not like your selling dope.

Your boss sounds like he's a good guy making poor decisions.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

If I was you Id RUN not walk away from this asshat !

If hes paying you cash I would be willing to bet hes not paying for workers comp, or suta, futa, SDI, and so on. 

If you become unemployed you have ZERO unemployment insurance, If you get hurt you have ZERO insurance that should be supplied by your employer in the form of W/C. 

He is saving thousands of dollars a year by paying you cash.

I can guaranty that the day will come when the IRS knocks on your door and reads you your Miranda Rights.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

Oops double post


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> If I was you Id RUN not walk away from this asshat !
> 
> If hes paying you cash I would be willing to bet hes not paying for workers comp, or suta, futa, SDI, and so on.
> 
> ...


His employer is not playing by the rules but paying cash is not illegal.

The IRS could careless how his employer pays him. 

His employer is not paying his entire pacheck in cash,just overtime. From the sound of it he doesn't get much overtime. His boss has been paying him to sit around the shop and do nothing waiting for work to come in.

Sounds like his boss's making poor decisions and not a flat out crook. 

His boss sounds like he is cheating his own insurance company the most.

Workmans comp is based on payroll
FICA is based on payroll and the boss has to match what the employee pays. They both are skating on that portion but only on the overtime and it sounds like overtime is rare.
Liability is based on payroll for employees,it's capped on the owners pay.

The IRS isn't going to come knocking and if they do they know there wasting their time with small fish. They go after people who either had alot of money they didn't pay tax on or have alot of money they didn't pay tax on. Not a employee making a wage struggling to get by.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> If I was you Id RUN not walk away from this asshat !
> 
> If hes paying you cash I would be willing to bet hes not paying for workers comp, or suta, futa, SDI, and so on.
> 
> ...


Just the overtime is cash I am on the books for 40 hours


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## john433 (Mar 20, 2013)

Time to leave just do it on good terms you will have nothing to lose keep your head up people make mistakes if you leave and you don't like it then you will learn from it I have been their. Make the move its in your best interest . Get paid ot and your wages that you are supposed to on the books


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Olemissplumber said:


> and it sounds like overtime is rare.


I'd say an average of three hours a week. Some weeks there is none, others its ten or twelve hours. Most of the time it's two or three. Just because I sit in the office four hours Monday doesnt mean I won't work 13 hours on Tuesday.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

The first thing to remember about the IRS they will come after the small guy. He does not have at his or her disposal great quantities of cash to fight the IRS like large companies have. The IRS will attack the company check book and freeze the money until they get their slice of the pie. The small business person will pay it out of fear they need their bank. They eventually will get around to an audit. Once an audit is in place they most likely will discover advertising that states over time work available and see no ot on the books. Hopefully this company has an accountant versus in house accounting.

I would agree not to turn the guy in as that will not only screw the employer but the individual. Back taxes and penalties will be owed. Knowingly doing something illegal is not only a bad decision and bad business practice it indicates there are other areas where he will do something illegally in the future if not now. He is a crook. Nice guys can be crooks; they are just a nicer breed of a crook. Madoff was a nice guy, look at all the people who trusted him. From the op he has been there a long time and the only difference between him and the other guys are his wages which are lower otherwise it would not be included in the message. Fair play does not seem to be an asset within the company.

Personally I would use being employed as leverage with the second company especially if I am very good at my trade and a valuable asset to the company.


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

Olemissplumber said:


> If the homeowner told you he was only going to pay half and you agreed to go along with it until the job was finished and then you tried to make him pay the whole bill and then sued him for the rest. Same thing
> 
> The guy knew the deal working for this company about the prevailing wage deal and he stayed there working. That's accepting it. Now that he wants to leave and ratting out his employer now wouldn't be right.
> 
> ...



You're right, if it was agreed upon from the start then he really shouldn't go after them. Its something you do when you're young.

To the OP, it wasn't about revenge its about whats right that's all, I know I'm not the only one here who was screwed over by an employer. One employer who did pay the prevailing wage, stole our 401k money, another didn't pay workmans comp or unemployment. Let me tell you how fun it was when 12 guys show up at the unemployment office and they tell you that you didn't work the past 2 years at such and such company. 

Save every pay stub, I mean every pay stub, and write down your hours everyday from each job you did, if you ever go to court you will need it. Do that no matter where you work. Just because you may not be the guy to turn them in, doesn't mean one of your co workers won't. 

It rarely works out for the employee when the crap hits the fan, the employer claims bankruptcy, you are left without a job or worse. He will throw all of you under the bus in a heartbeat, put them in your rear view mirror ASAP.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

I agree it is not about revenge it about breaking the law. The employer is charging as if they are paying the rate so that means somebody is getting some extra profit. Why would any of us want to see unfair practice? I do not feel sympathy for a company that takes advantage of young plumbers by using the good ole boy cover to ripoff the employees. To the young man that ask the original question, all you have to sell is your time and knowledge, anytime someone takes advantage of that its time to go. I worked for a company that done the same thing you will be loyal to them but when it's to there advantage they will cut you loose. So that being said take care of number one and work for somebody that plays by the rules were there is no doubt in the fairness


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*life is a risk,*

I would move on, and get with someone that you will learn from and is willing to send you to school too... it sounds like you are in a backwater and are too comfortable. 

eventually all this is going to blow up in your face...
and perhaps in your employers too..

I have seen the horror of guys who thought that their employer had paid all the taxes on the "cash" they received... then when the crap hits the fan, YOU are the one who has to cough up the un-paid money and fines to the governement..... this can get very ugly

I have had guys work for me that had liens on them due to some past employer who claimed they were paying all the dues and taxes for them.......I trusted my boss and he threw me under the bus.  
The IRS simply states to them "show us your paperwork" and "ignorance of the law is no excuse." .....


Also in the present environment, if you have had any affiliniations 
with the Tea Party movement, the Feds Gestapo will come after 
you with a vengenance.....:laughing: 

so am I joking about this or not??


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## JWBII (Dec 23, 2012)

Marlin.... You mentioned "salary". Are you paid salary or an hourly wage?


Now based on the things you've said if I were in your shoes after the amount of time you've put in with this company I'd probably leave. I have yet to leave for more money, anytime I've left it was to try and get with a better company and to hopefully grow in this trade. So far I haven't regretted my decisions.

I think Richard has the best advice so far.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

I'm paid hourly.


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## JWBII (Dec 23, 2012)

Ok then yeah you are getting screwed on prevailing wage. However if they made it clear that was their business practice when you hired on and you accepted it then you made your choice and seem to be ok with it. Reason I asked about salary was its my understanding that guys that are slary do not get prevailing wage. 

There seems to be some good points working there but I personally would still be looking for something different. And since the company you are considering made you what you feel is a good offer why not check around and put some feelers out to see what others may have to offer as well.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

Richard Hilliard said:


> I would agree not to turn the guy in as that will not only screw the employer but the individual.
> 
> Back taxes and penalties will be owed.
> 
> ...


Your contradicting your own advice. On one hand your telling the original poster to keep his mouth shut because back tax would be owed by everyone and on the other hand your calling his employer a crook.

Looks like their all guilty of tax evasion to me.

Wouldn't the best advice be to pay the tax you owe? Or would it be keep your mouth shut because that's cheaper?

You don't want him to be a nice guy crook do you?


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

Marlin said:


> Just the overtime is cash I am on the books for 40 hours


This is what I read in your original post I must have misread it , but it sure sounds like all cash.

*"My current employer will not pay time and a half for overtime, they pay regular time in cash. This is killing me when I go to apply for a mortgage. The loan officer told me I can afford it and should qualify but cash income obviously can't be counted. 
"*


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

I've worked with a few companies, chased greener grass, preferred service work and moved to companies that were busier. Great thing about our trade, toilets always plug, people need heat and water. You know what you want to do, it's always tense doing something new and not knowing. Speak with your wholesales and ask how they like dealing with the new company, maybe they will introduce you to one of their guys. Plumbing is a great brotherhood, keep your integrity in check and you'll never be out of work!

I worked for a guy that ran his business into the ground, treated it like hhis own Piggy bank. He didn't get paid in 3 years on the books but took a lot of shareholder loans. Gov't finally seized him, we all knew it was coming, but, client base was good and so was the work. I left and went back there 3 times while I tried 1 other company and then doing other lines of work in the summer (slow time). Nice thing about him, it was transparent and other plumbers knew about him so they wouldn t work there, he paid well for the good guys he could get and had a very hard time replacing anyone.


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

Its nonsense trying to argue over who broke what law, the employer has to pay prevailing wages on prevailing wage jobs, whether the employee wants it or not, the employee has to pay tax on his earnings. The only reason to drop dimes on the employer would be if the figures don't match up, if he owes you 10,000 in back wages and you figure you owe the government 8,000 then its probably not worth it, if one of the guys you work with doesn't really work overtime and he is owed thousands in back wages then he is the one I'd worry about. I think we all know money gets in the middle of everything, including loyalty.
Guys here aren't telling you to leave because of the other job, they are telling you to leave to save yourself a hassle coming down the road. Take it from people who have been screwed 

The longer you stay there the more you will have to pay in the end. It may take him years to pay the back wages on the prevailing wages he owes you, the IRS may not be so forgiving. If you keep anything at his shop like tools, or an old car whatever, get it out. When the company I worked for got hit by the IRS, they seized the truck with my tools in it, everyones truck, of course the owner claimed my saw zaw and cordless screw gun, he had receipts from one he purchased for his house. This company had alot of property and fenced in equipment, a few of my coworkers kept their boats there. The IRS seized those boats as well until my coworkers proved the boats were theirs. One guy lost his trailer on the deal. I was able to get my saw zaw back after 2 years, the cordless never came back.

Another thing to consider is alot of States won't let you take their master plumbing test if you owe them back taxes.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

There are literally tens of thousands of people who work for cash and the IRS is not beating down their doors. Get over the IRS thing already.

If the guy wants to leave so what pack your bag and go.

When you get to the new job and find out things aren't so green or they send you home at 10am and tell you they will call you if work picks up,pack your bags again and move on.

It's not that complicated and no ones going to jail over it. The IRS is busy brown nosing the current administrations crack. It might be better to just quit work and let the government take care of you from the way it looks. Have a couple kids,get a free house and cell phone and a food stamp card and now I see they are giving cash cards out.


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

Olemissplumber said:


> There are literally tens of thousands of people who work for cash and the IRS is not beating down their doors. Get over the IRS thing already.
> 
> If the guy wants to leave so what pack your bag and go.
> 
> ...


Hahahahahahahhhahahahahahahahaha, clearly you have never had dealings with the IRS. Hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha. Keep living in fantasy land.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

It is healthy to move on just to learn the different ways people address problems. The different ways that two plumbers install there work. You could come away from the experience being better than you ever thought you could. The thought of going home at ten o clock is scary but it more than likely will never happen, if they want to hire you they already have a work load that requires another plumber.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

James420 said:


> Hahahahahahahhhahahahahahahahaha, clearly you have never had dealings with the IRS. Hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha. Keep living in fantasy land.


Actually I have been audited once and I was late filing my tax 3 times. The last time I was late they waved the penalty because I simply asked.

The audit showed they owed me. They sent a check within 90 days. 

I don't think you know as much mr 420 as you project.

The guy here is basically a wage earner who can't get a mortgage. So enough with the drama.


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

Olemissplumber said:


> Actually I have been audited once and I was late filing my tax 3 times. The last time I was late they waved the penalty because I simply asked.
> 
> The audit showed they owed me. They sent a check within 90 days.
> 
> ...


I don't project anything, if the company you work for takes taxes out of your check and doesn't send them to the government, it causes problems, with the IRS, if you owe back taxes in Maryland or Delaware you can't get a plumbing license. Getting paid prevailing wages is a law, whether employers like it or not. Its pretty simple, if you don't want to pay the wages, don't bid the job.

When the same company stole our 401k money we didn't know how crooked they really were, as a group we decided not to after the employer for the few thousand dollars that were owed to us if they made certain concessions and they made the concessions. The problem was one of the guys got fired, deservedly so, but he turned them into the labor board and the state department of revenue. 

If a good journeyman plumber doesn't make enough wages to get a mortgage, then there is a bigger problem.


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

Marlin said:


> Hey guys, I haven't been around here much lately but I'm at a crossroads in my career. I know a lot of you have probably been in this situation and was hoping you could give me some advice or works of encouragement/discouragement.
> 
> I've been with the same company for six years now, my entire plumbing career. I've done about three years of new construction and three years of service with them. I currently do service and am trying to stick to it as I like it better though I occasionally still do new work or renovations when they need help or service gets slow. I like working at this company and with few exceptions they treat me pretty well in every way except salary. The other employees have been there 16, 10, 4 and 1 year so we are pretty close. I was just offered a job by another company and am on the fence over whether or not I want to move. I'm putting together a list of comparisons to try and decide if I should make a move or not. That's listed below but it's pretty long.
> 
> ...


Start claiming your cash with the IRS. Stay where you're at.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Olemissplumber said:


> Your contradicting your own advice. On one hand your telling the original poster to keep his mouth shut because back tax would be owed by everyone and on the other hand your calling his employer a crook.
> 
> Looks like their all guilty of tax evasion to me.
> 
> ...


 
You can think whatever you want to think I have no control over how wacky a person is and what /how they think. No where in my post did I say not to pay taxes that is your assumption.

My position; not to create waves for either the op or owner of that company. My position is also to leave the existing company because he is not that nice of a person. Dishonesty is dishonesty. If I was hiring I would not hire the op either. This is my opinion and mine only.

I have been real clear with what I would do if I was in this persons shoes.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Triplecrown24 said:


> Start claiming your cash with the IRS. Stay where you're at.


How?
I can't claim it as regular wages with no w2 or proof that I worked anywhere. I'd have to do it on a 1099 and pay twice what I should in taxes and not get time and a half. Even that is risky. 

I think others are right about how this whole thing could blow up. One person or the company gets audited and we're all going down together. What's done is done, I will leave it well enough alone and hope for the best. Depending how my conversation with my boss goes I may bring up (in kinder words) that I am no longer going to accept cash as payment for overtime as I don't want to deal with the possible repercussions. I don't want to get my mortgage then get a letter from the IRS saying I owe tons of money in back taxes.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

James420 said:


> I don't project anything, if the company you work for takes taxes out of your check and doesn't send them to the government, it causes problems, with the IRS, if you owe back taxes in Maryland or Delaware you can't get a plumbing license. Getting paid prevailing wages is a law, whether employers like it or not. Its pretty simple, if you don't want to pay the wages, don't bid the job.
> 
> When the same company stole our 401k money we didn't know how crooked they really were, as a group we decided not to after the employer for the few thousand dollars that were owed to us if they made certain concessions and they made the concessions. The problem was one of the guys got fired, deservedly so, but he turned them into the labor board and the state department of revenue.
> 
> If a good journeyman plumber doesn't make enough wages to get a mortgage, then there is a bigger problem.


How do you know the company you work for now is paying the government the tax they withhold from your check? How will the original poster be assured his new employer will pay the government the tax withheld from his check?

Because they tell you they are?

He may make enough to pay a mortgage but not with his current existing debt. Over time is not guaranteed so it is not typically considered when a bank qualifies you for a mortgage. Did you consider that?


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

Richard Hilliard said:


> My position; not to create waves for either the op or owner of that company. My position is also to leave the existing company because he is not that nice of a person. Dishonesty is dishonesty. If I was hiring I would not hire the op either. This is my opinion and mine only.
> .


So your telling the guy to leave his job and in the same breath saying you wouldn't hire him based off his posts.
So it's logical to assume if you wouldn't hire him then no one else should.

Your problem is you think no one can add 1+1. 

You don't have to verbalized an idea to imply it. Remember that when your talking to your customers or are they all stupid? Lol


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

Marlin said:


> How?
> I can't claim it as regular wages with no w2 or proof that I worked anywhere. I'd have to do it on a 1099 and pay twice what I should in taxes and not get time and a half. Even that is risky.
> 
> I think others are right about how this whole thing could blow up. One person or the company gets audited and we're all going down together. What's done is done, I will leave it well enough alone and hope for the best. Depending how my conversation with my boss goes I may bring up (in kinder words) that I am no longer going to accept cash as payment for overtime as I don't want to deal with the possible repercussions. I don't want to get my mortgage then get a letter from the IRS saying I owe tons of money in back taxes.


I know a guy who was once in a eerily similar situation. Run this by your bookkeeper. The person I knew had cash but know way to show how he obtained it, something like your describing. Just offering suggestions friend.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Olemissplumber said:


> So your telling the guy to leave his job and in the same breath saying you wouldn't hire him based off his posts.
> So it's logical to assume if you wouldn't hire him then no one else should.
> 
> Your problem is you think no one can add 1+1.
> ...


 
You make me laugh and I appreciate that good thing about you, you're funny. I Did not imply anything ,you are the one with the implications. I can safely assume that you argue with your customers quite frequently. Are you disagreeable with them too on everything? 

In my very first post I said what I would do if I was him.

I would not be in the position the op is presently facing. Cheat me once we talk cheat me again I am no longer there. There is a huge difference between unknowingly and knowingly doing something illegal. I WOULD HOPE YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE. A mistake is a mistake when repeated over and over it is on purpose. Clear enough again?

My last post is if I am the one doing the hiring. Get that, me, it has nothing to do with you or others. Is that clear enough for you? I realize that I must be crystal clear when speaking with you.

Thanks for helping me with your problem I never implied your were stupid.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Richard Hilliard said:


> My position; not to create waves for either the op or owner of that company. My position is also to leave the existing company because he is not that nice of a person. Dishonesty is dishonesty. If I was hiring I would not hire the op either. This is my opinion and mine only.
> 
> I have been real clear with what I would do if I was in this persons shoes.


I'm not asking this in a confrontational, just asking for the sake of being able to better myself. May I ask why you would not hire me?




Triplecrown24 said:


> I know a guy who was once in a eerily similar situation. Run this by your bookkeeper. The person I knew had cash but know way to show how he obtained it, something like your describing. Just offering suggestions friend.


Take it to a casino? 
Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately if I hide the moneys source now I'm laundering it. I think that would land me in more trouble than just not paying tax on it. I guess I could ask my accountant if their is a legal way to do it. I think my best exit strategy to the cash deal is to just try to stop getting paid in cash. If their comes a time I have to deal with it I will, what's done is done.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

Count the cash as side work. There it's all done. That's really what it is anyway. If the government asks you where you got the money tell them,from your boss under the table for side work. There see all better.


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

Olemissplumber said:


> How do you know the company you work for now is paying the government the tax they withhold from your check? How will the original poster be assured his new employer will pay the government the tax withheld from his check?
> 
> Because they tell you they are?
> 
> He may make enough to pay a mortgage but not with his current existing debt. Over time is not guaranteed so it is not typically considered when a bank qualifies you for a mortgage. Did you consider that?


Man I hope they are, that can't happen twice, I wouldnt think it would anyway. You are right about the OT, mine wasn't considered when I got my mortgage.


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

Marlin said:


> How?
> I can't claim it as regular wages with no w2 or proof that I worked anywhere. I'd have to do it on a 1099 and pay twice what I should in taxes and not get time and a half. Even that is risky.
> 
> I think others are right about how this whole thing could blow up. One person or the company gets audited and we're all going down together. What's done is done, I will leave it well enough alone and hope for the best. Depending how my conversation with my boss goes I may bring up (in kinder words) that I am no longer going to accept cash as payment for overtime as I don't want to deal with the possible repercussions. I don't want to get my mortgage then get a letter from the IRS saying I owe tons of money in back taxes.


That's all I was saying, in the end you have to do what's best for you and your family. If and when you work for a normal company, you'll look back on all this wonder why you didn't leave earlier.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Marlin said:


> I'm not asking this in a confrontational, just asking for the sake of being able to better myself. May I ask why you would not hire me?
> 
> Marlin you are knowingly going along with something that is illegal. We all make mistakes. You know of the mistake and did nothing to fix the mistake. If one of my employees happen to do something illegal or not do a job properly what would you do? I must be able to trust that the people that work around me are with me and will do what is in the best interest of the company and not themselves. You take cash from me would you take cash from a home owner that asks you to do this for them on Saturday? I believe that actions and words need to align with one another.
> 
> You may be a great guy and not do what I have stated. Your actions would not lead me to take the risk with you. Now if you came to me and said this has been going on for a month and I am not in favor of this a different story and a different ending.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

So we had a talk and apparently I am valuable to them after all. He offered to match the base pay they offered, increase my comission percentage and pay proper overtime. I will never see a prevailing wage again. Does non contractual emergency service work at public schools, private government funded schools, hospitals, water districts, etc have to be prevailing wage? 

I'm still not 100 percent decided but the scale is leanin towards staying now.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

I agree with many members. Stay where you are. It's not worth what what might be vs what is. It's as simiple as that.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

To the OP -I'll solve your cash problem. Save up, & go buy a small house, with a bunch of dead presidents. You won't believe how little they will notice, or care, about your credit.:laughing:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

90 posts of disrespect to the OP have been moved to their own thread...

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f4/mine-bigger-than-yours-25895/

Feel free to visit there if you have nothing useful for the OP.


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