# Non-Union to Union Adjustment



## markb (Jun 11, 2009)

I did my apprenticeship in a smaller non-union company. It was a great company that did A+ work in commercial, residential, restaurants and renovation. 

It is all interesting work, but from what I hear larger union commercial and ICI work is something else! 

As a Redseal journeyman , I am really considering joining my local union hall (Local 46, Toronto, Ontario) for the interesting work, benefits and continuing education (pipe fitting, steamfitting, gas fitting tickets).

I am only a bit worried that because I don't have a background in the type of larger commercial and ICI stuff that I when I am put on a union job, my apprentice is more knowledgeable that I am lol. Or does the hall expect this learning curve from non-union trained journeymen?

Any feedback would be appreciated. Once I make my decision (Union or Non-Union) I will be sticking with it for most of my life. It's time or me to get organized, hone my skills and make some good money.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

I heard the transition to union is easy once you learn and accept to make 4 hours of actual work to look busy in a 8 hour day while having a helper besides.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ZL700 said:


> I heard the transition to union is easy once you learn and accept to make 4 hours of actual work to look busy in a 8 hour day while having a helper besides.


Yea I heard they don't care as long as your dues are paid up... :laughing:

That should liven up the discussion some...


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## markb (Jun 11, 2009)

I'm sure that may be the situation for some companies, but I have talked to a few "real" plumbers in the union and they work hard, are educated and have pride in their work.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Yea I heard they don't care as long as your dues are paid up... :laughing:
> 
> That should liven up the discussion some...


I'm not kidding, I once was a job site supervisor, commercial boiler install in a church, 3 union plumbers, 1 union delivery driver took one day to decide where to unload, secure and lock a job box.

1st day cost, no work done, $1,400

3rd day air separator hung and connected to existing air to water expansion tank, 4" copper. I walk in point out that separator is 1' above inlet on tank, 1 day lost = $600. Note that plumber stayed on ladder while apprentice cut, reamed, cleaned and fluxed every section, measured one section at a time.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

ZL700 said:


> I'm not kidding, I once was a job site supervisor, commercial boiler install in a church, 3 union plumbers, 1 union delivery driver took one day to decide where to unload, secure and lock a job box.
> 
> 1st day cost, no work done, $1,400
> 
> 3rd day air separator hung and connected to existing air to water expansion tank, 4" copper. I walk in point out that separator is 1' above inlet on tank, 1 day lost = $600. Note that plumber stayed on ladder while apprentice cut, reamed, cleaned and fluxed every section, measured one section at a time.


So, one job you watched makes you an expert on every union job everywhere?


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Yea I heard they don't care as long as your dues are paid up... :laughing:
> 
> That should liven up the discussion some...


But... Ah nevermind... Lol!


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

What a lot of non-union people don't understand is that union contractors face competition on their bids, either from other union contractors, or against non-union competition. If a bid is too high, you don't get it, too low and you loose money. It's very seldom we get screw off time. I do figure mobilization and demob in every job, and so should everyone else. I tell my guys the manhours they have to complete the job. If they want to screw off, it's fine by me, as long as the job is done properly in the allotted time, and the customer doesn't complain.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

U.A.til.I.die said:


> But... Ah nevermind... Lol!


Ah you found the invisible ink.... :laughing:


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Back to the original question, it's been my experience that jms aren't expected to know every thing, regardless of your background, but you are expected to be a fast learner.


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## markb (Jun 11, 2009)

jjbex said:


> Back to the original question, it's been my experience that jms aren't expected to know every thing, regardless of your background, but you are expected to be a fast learner.


Thanks for the reply.

If you don't mind me asking, do you feel that, for yourself and your family, a Union put you in a better place now than if you would have stayed non-union and began your own business down the road? Also, would you say that you get more job satisfaction from larger projects rather than many smaller and relatively simpler projects?


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

jjbex said:


> So, one job you watched makes you an expert on every union job everywhere?


No 6 years, but I admit it isnt always like that everywhere.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

The benefit of being union is that your retirement and healthcare benefits follow you from company to company, you don't lose them when you leave an employer and have to start all over with another employer.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

jjbex said:


> What a lot of non-union people don't understand is that union contractors face competition on their bids, either from other union contractors, or against non-union competition. If a bid is too high, you don't get it, too low and you loose money. It's very seldom we get screw off time. I do figure mobilization and demob in every job, and so should everyone else. I tell my guys the manhours they have to complete the job. If they want to screw off, it's fine by me, as long as the job is done properly in the allotted time, and the customer doesn't complain.


Union contractors often go back to the hall to apply for supplemental funds either in a grant or supplemental union wages or concessions to apply to the job to lower their costs.

This is designed to keep union companies in business and dues coming in along with keeping the bench population low so they don't lose their good contributors.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

markb said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> If you don't mind me asking, do you feel that, for yourself and your family, a Union put you in a better place now than if you would have stayed non-union and began your own business down the road? Also, would you say that you get more job satisfaction from larger projects rather than many smaller and relatively simpler projects?


I know this question was not directed at me, but I'll add my $.02 anyway, take it or leave it. I know no other way so I am biased. I came up organized, and have always worked steady.

I was always at the top of my class in trade school along with the other union guys because apprentice training is mandatory within the UA. it gives the members an advantage over non union folk, as even journeymen can take any course they like on a wide variety of subjects.

As far as the type of projects I prefer, I have worked on a cornucopia of projects in just about every capacity in the trade. Some guys love the fab shop life, and will not work out in the field, even if it means sitting on the dole for months at a time. Some guys almost never work out of their home local because they are gluttons for overtime. When there is work in the refineries in sarnia, or Saskatchewan or Edmonton, these guys leave for eight months and come back with $100,000 and enjoy life for the rest of the year.

There are also guys that get hooked up with a small contractor who does mostly resi and very light commercial, and they are liked, getting 36 hours a week at a slightly lesser rate and they are happy with that.

The average guy though, bounces from medium to large commercial jobs, from a couple months to a year, making full rate, 36 a week with maybe a bit of overtime and get to see a lot of different things and still sleep in their own beds every night.

All in all, I am very happy with my role within the union and I wouldnt consider leaving for any reason. 

We have had some house plumbers who joined and couldn't be trusted to perform the simplest tasks, and we've had the same type of guys who have been made foreman on large commercial or industrial jobs in very little time.

If you have a good head on your shoulders and a strong work ethic, you will do great within the UA.

Remember, there is no seniority in construction unions so the weak and the lazy will always sit on the books the longest, only the strong survive, organize.

Live better, work union.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

I joined the union when I left my last employer. Past their exams and was waiting on a call. Thought for the heck of it why not take my contractors licenses while I wait. 6 or 7 months later they called and said they had a job for me, I said never mind I'm working for myself now. I would have starved to death waiting on them. But that's my experience with the "union". If it works for you then "all power to ya".


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

markb said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> If you don't mind me asking, do you feel that, for yourself and your family, a Union put you in a better place now than if you would have stayed non-union and began your own business down the road? Also, would you say that you get more job satisfaction from larger projects rather than many smaller and relatively simpler projects?


I started plumbing union, and worked out of the hall. I did residential, commercial and industrial (as a pipefitter, though.) I started my own one man shop, stayed union, and did mainly residential with a little commercial service. I sold it to my present boss and do mostly industrial service plumbing, with a little fitting thrown in. Our area boomed for almost 20 years, till 08, and now a lot of union plumbers are on the bench, quite a few are leaving the trade. I can travel, if I need, which I have done in the past. For me, union has worked out great. In 08, 100K, 1 week paid vacation. 
09, 94K, 1 week paid vacation.
10, 90K, with 6 weeks vacation, one week paid. 
I think you can see I am pretty glad to have gone union. Don't get me wrong, I know union slugs, but it's nut cutting time. Contractors can't carry deadweight. Slugs get spun real quick now. You better be a moneymaker, or your gone.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I am union trained. They have a good program. All they do for me now is collect a check though. I am strongly considering going non union.


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

I was born into union roots, deep ones. I ended up in a right to work state that the union workers spend more time on the bench than working. I hear a ton that unions are the sole cause that big business has and continues to move to cheaper labor. Maybe so but the reality is that history repeats itself. At least that organization teaches self defense against the world driving our livings into the ground.

It is a fact and no one can deny... they got greedy. So what.... Big business and banking are super greedy right now. No one is persecuting them. IMHO we need to revisit this debate down the road when the storm calms. Right now we have fellow plumbers wondering how they will work, I could care less about unions or non unions. What bothers me is that now a war of the same flavor is happening with Craigs List and legit contractors. I guess I can say now I know how it feels.

I have never been union therefore I can't say a ton. That is like the guy who doesn't have a degree criticizing the guy with the degree. How would he know? This idea I have to work cheap and it is noble is total crap. Our livings are being driven into the ground.


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## wundumguy (Apr 3, 2010)

The change from Domestic/Light Commercial to ICI can be significant. But, the change isn't earth shattering - it's just a change. Your first assignment isn't likely to be foreman of a big project. More likely, you'll be another guy on the tools with journeymen around to point you in the right direction. Depending on the local, you may be required to serve a year at senior apprentice rate, which also means you aren't expected to perform at the level of a journeyman with ICI experience.

As you probably know, there can be some really big jobs, especially industrial ones, where it is near impossible for a non-union contractor to man up. Logically, for a union contractor to be in a better human resource position, there must be union guys sitting on the bench. Before you quit a steady residential/light commercial job, understand that the average union project Plumber will tend to experience more frequent periods of unemployment. If you can budget well, you should do better overall.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

ZL700 said:


> Union contractors often go back to the hall to apply for supplemental funds either in a grant or supplemental union wages or concessions to apply to the job to lower their costs.
> 
> This is designed to keep union companies in business and dues coming in along with keeping the bench population low so they don't lose their good contributors.


Sometimes this is necessary on a non-prevailing wage job bidding against a non-union contractor.

Most often this money is pulled from a fund paid into at a small rate by all members over many years. 

Not in wage concessions. The one I am involved in is called a target fund. 

It doesn't take a CPA to figure out the wage and benefits comparison between union and non-union. The difference is startling......

The party line will continue to be: All union people are lazy and over-paid. 

Statements like that smell of pure jealousy.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> Sometimes this is necessary on a non-prevailing wage job bidding against a non-union contractor.
> 
> Most often this money is pulled from a fund paid into at a small rate by all members over many years.
> 
> ...


Yes "target fund" that's what I would apply for on jobs $25-100,000 in order to be competitive.

Jealous? Not sure where you got that, a union mechanical put food on my table for 6 years.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

ILPlumber said:


> Sometimes this is necessary on a non-prevailing wage job bidding against a non-union contractor.
> 
> Most often this money is pulled from a fund paid into at a small rate by all members over many years.
> 
> ...


Well put IL, round here we call it a stabilization fund that has been the topic of discussion at our general meetings for many months now.

It seems people are very quick to judge or mock what they don't understand and I think it is shameful. 

I have never worked in the non union sector but I would never be as rash as to sling mud or throw around violent accusations. For me, the union is hands down the most profitable ( now, as well as in my elder years), most rewarding and safest environment that my trade has to offer.

I have heard valid points as far as not being put to work in a timely fashion etc. And I respect their decision for leaving.

But anyone who has never walked a mile in my shoes is disrespecting me, my family and my brothers and is cut and dried ignorant. These are the type of people I would not want to work beside as a representation of my local.-


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## markb (Jun 11, 2009)

Everyone, thanks for the replys. I will be making my decision over the next month.


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## HuskyMurph (Dec 13, 2010)

union doesnt want me. they want the hole company. i talked to a guy last week hes 300 on the bench list. feel sorry for the guys that go to the union school. we get the union harsement over here alot same with a non union cabnetry business i know in wisconsin. but im guessing its differnt from state to state.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

HuskyMurph said:


> union doesnt want me. they want the hole company. i talked to a guy last week hes 300 on the bench list. feel sorry for the guys that go to the union school. we get the union harsement over here alot same with a non union cabnetry business i know in wisconsin. but im guessing its differnt from state to state.


 
Last I heard, L.U. 492 in my area had over 460 on the bench, some haven't worked in years and have been scabbing since they ran out of sub pay a long time ago.

The union took those pensions, invested in stocks, when that went south so did the contributions. 

The health insurance, including dental and vision is lackluster, nothing the way it used to be even when I was there. 

Top out is possibly $27 with bennies, but in today's age that's just living, not much above.


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