# tankless heaters



## tooslow (Jul 17, 2009)

My first one, an owner furnished Rheem74 series.

Job, would have been a piece of cake except for the venting. I had to drive over an hour each way to get the parts at the Manufactures Rep. Warehouse.

The Feds are offering a $1500 tax refund on these heater now and I think this will really stimulate a bunch of work.

Which brand would you stick with, to avoid mix and match of the vent pipes. These pipes are brand specific. Local supply houses don't stock this stuff in a big way, they can order it though.

Way different ballgame than a tank type heater for venting.

The three brand names that I am familiar with is Noritz, Rheem, Takagi.

Opinions welcome.


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## trout lake (May 9, 2009)

Welcome to den of fun and frolic Tooslow!

Sometimes when a new face arrives on the scene, and a question might not be phrased in terms we can fully understand, I for one get a touch shy about opening up to a brother in need. Take for instance a newbiee named Irish plumber. I found the original posting he put forward as a bit confusing. I didn't know if he was a for real plumber or some wing-nut wannabee. It didn't take long for everyone on this site top realize Irish plumber was for real, and by the sounds of his postings, a top notch tradesman. He was simply from a place where things are done a tad differently than over here.
I see on your profile that you are in the commercial plumbing field. Why don't you tell us bit about the types of plumbing things you encounter on a daily basis. It will break the ice a bit and some of the guys will be more anxious to jump in and share some of the experiences they have encountered related to you problem
Thanks and look forward to hearing from you
trout lake


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

he's been around dude.


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## rickmccarthy (Jul 20, 2009)

Rinnnai man I have installed a ton of these and love em the only thing you gotta watch out for is really hard water


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

There are only a few conditions where I would recommend a tankless. I don't do many.


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## rickmccarthy (Jul 20, 2009)

Really Why?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I'll wait until tomorrow to open that can of worms.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

I like Noritz.

The tax credit is 30% of total install price up to $1500.00. Don't let your client think that it is a flat $1500.00 unless of course you are getting $5000.00 plus for an install, (in which case I will be contacting you to get the "how to's" on that sale ).

We don't install Rheem but get calls about once a month to come find out why they are not working properly. In fairness to Rheem the problems are almost always improper installation. I still would not recommend Rheem though. The first time I ever went to work on one, I called tech support to find out where the manometer port was so I could test the gas pressure and was informed that there was none . That spoke volumes to me regarding Rheems commitment to quality. If they cut corners in production by not including a manometer port, what other corners did they cut?

I have installed one Takagi and as far as I know there have been no problems but I hear from others who have installed them that it takes an inordinate amount of time for the water to become fully hot even from the time hot water initially begins to show up at the tap.

Since June of last year I have installed about one Noritz unit (mostly 751) per month (maybe slightly more). I've had no problems except for some frozen pipes on the OD models back in the winter but let me stress that this was in the water piping to and from the unit and not the unit itself. We have since corrected this problem and don't expect it in the future. The wh itself is magnificent in my view. It costs more but I personally would not consider offering anything else. I installed a 751 yesterday and am going for another consult this afternoon.

I have also installed one Rinnai unit (the first tankless I ever installed) and have had no issues that I am aware of with it.

Do your homework, don't just start flinging these things in. Make sure your gas supply is adequate. If these are not all that popular in your area, then now is definately the time to become an expert and dominate your market in the area of tankless. I would not consider myself to be "the best" in my area (but then again I don't know that I'm not the best in my area) but I have pursued this technology and have a level of confidence that makes sales easier as I go. There are plenty of others who have much more experience than I do at tankless but after you start doing them you will become better and more knowledgeable about them. Read the install instructions carefully! Don't assume you know anything! 

Good luck! Tankless installs are a good ticket for us ($3500.00 - $4500.00) and we are pursuing the market vigorously. 

Oh yeah, one more thing, if you are in central Alabama, disregard everything I just said .


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

rickmccarthy said:


> Rinnnai man I have installed a ton of these and love em the only thing you gotta watch out for is really hard water



I would like to hear more about the tankless Rinnai's. In my area we do have very hard water, 27 on average. Water Softener then? I currently don't install tankless but would like to get more info, if they would work here in these extreme cold temps, water extremely cold in the winter etc.


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## tooslow (Jul 17, 2009)

I was at Ferguson today looking at the Takagi, counterman was knowlegable about problems that have arisen.
#one problem is water quality--they offered a replaceable filter--$200.00
#two was insufficient air for the intake and lint.
They have a new unit coming out with pvc venting!
With that rebate this market could catch fire!


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Rinnai is they way to go, Ive installed over 100 with very few call backs. Most of the call backs are because people dont know how to use a controller to turn the water temp up/down


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## A Good Plumber (Jun 18, 2008)

Rinnai is the Units we install. I've removed 2-takagi's, 1 Nortiz and 4-Bosch and replaced them all with Rinnai's. In a few of the cases it was ths an undersized gas line and a poor installation. In the other cases I convinced the HO to replace what they had with a better unit like a Rinnai and I could provide them with any servicing it might need later. No service calls yet on any install I've done. Lucky? Maybe, but I believe Rinnai has a great probuct to offer if installed correctly.

As Smells said "_Do your homework, don't just start flinging these things in."_

Good luck.


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## A Good Plumber (Jun 18, 2008)

ironranger said:


> I would like to hear more about the tankless Rinnai's. In my area we do have very hard water, 27 on average. Water Softener then? I currently don't install tankless but would like to get more info, if they would work here in these extreme cold temps, water extremely cold in the winter etc.


 
Stay away from a water softener if you have a Tankless Water Heater. Salt water is too agressive for the copper coil in the unit. 

Look into a water conditioner. I've been upselling a Zeta water conditioner with most of the installs we've done.

Condition the water, don't soften it.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

GREENPLUM said:


> Rinnai is they way to go, Ive installed over 100 with very few call backs. Most of the call backs are because people dont know how to use a controller to turn the water temp up/down


I have a Rinnai Energy Saver 1004F forced air n/g heater in my home for alternate heat. Found out it's more than enough to heat the entire home. It's been installed for 6 years without a single problem.

Today I was at a home doing a water meter install in the basement, turned around and there was a new Rinnai tankless water heater! First one I've seen in my area. The guy said he installed it himself, he's not a plumber.
So I had to check it out. Installation looked great, soldering looked perfect and he ran gastite too. He said it's been in for just over a month and works perfect. It was the 180K BTU unit. Well hell, if he can do I can do it too!:laughing:
He said he paid about 1500 with all the extra parts etc.
I'm going to print out the installation manual and have myself a good read. If I'm going to install them it's going to be the Rinnai.

Any tips you have regarding the flu, piping, set up etc. sure would be appreciated. You can PM me if you like. Thanks!


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

A Good Plumber said:


> Stay away from a water softener if you have a Tankless Water Heater. Salt water is too agressive for the copper coil in the unit.
> 
> Look into a water conditioner. I've been upselling a Zeta water conditioner with most of the installs we've done.
> 
> Condition the water, don't soften it.



Thanks, I'll look into that. What exactly does the hard water do to the units. I noticed the guy I saw today that had the Rinnai isn't conditioning his water and I know for sure it's very hard.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

http://www.siouxchief.com/Supply/Kits/Water-Heater-Connector-Kits/SNW88.SNW88
I like these, the RIK kit is kinda bulky and the cut-offs are hard to turn


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

the unit will build up a lime scale, he will have to de-lime the system more often. I try to sell a maintance package with the Rinnai. MOst people dont get it because they think "that wint happen to me, my water is fine"


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## A Good Plumber (Jun 18, 2008)

ironranger said:


> Thanks, I'll look into that. What exactly does the hard water do to the units. I noticed the guy I saw today that had the Rinnai isn't conditioning his water and I know for sure it's very hard.


 
If you don't condition the water, the unit will require a "flush" with a vinigar like product every 6 months or so depending on the hardness of the water in your area.

Conditioning the water virtually eliminates the flushing.

Keep in mind it also eliminates the need to call you out to flush the unit every 6 months, but Id rather sell them a conditioner and give the customer a little more peace of mind.


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## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

ironranger said:


> Thanks, I'll look into that. What exactly does the hard water do to the units. I noticed the guy I saw today that had the Rinnai isn't conditioning his water and I know for sure it's very hard.


 
Like you said, "he's not a plumber". He'll have a call back on himself in about a year and probably try to blame the cracked heat exchanger on you , for not warning him while you were there changing his meter.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

He was just finishing up on installing a new steel roof when I got there! I have to give the guy credit though.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

A Good Plumber said:


> If you don't condition the water, the unit will require a "flush" with a vinigar like product every 6 months or so depending on the hardness of the water in your area.
> 
> Conditioning the water virtually eliminates the flushing.
> 
> Keep in mind it also eliminates the need to call you out to flush the unit every 6 months, but Id rather sell them a conditioner and give the customer a little more peace of mind.


I can understand how they haven't really caught on here. We have very hard water, we have a very cold climate, very cold water. The cost is the factor. There are very few here that will spend that kind of money to heat their water, but..... I would like to start doing them and giving those very few the option.:thumbsup:


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

A Good Plumber said:


> Rinnai is the Units we install. I've removed 2-takagi's, 1 Nortiz and 4-Bosch and replaced them all with Rinnai's. In a few of the cases it was ths an undersized gas line and a poor installation. In the other cases I convinced the HO to replace what they had with a better unit like a Rinnai and I could provide them with any servicing it might need later. No service calls yet on any install I've done. Lucky? Maybe, but I believe Rinnai has a great probuct to offer if installed correctly.
> 
> As Smells said "_Do your homework, don't just start flinging these things in."_
> 
> Good luck.


No explanation necessary on the Takagi or Bosch but I'm very curious about which Noritz you replaced and why? Do I understand that you are replacing simply for undersized gas line? Why not just correct the gas line? Except for the Bosch I would probably suggest correcting what ever was wrong with respect to the installation even though I prefer Noritz before I replaced it unless there were other issues and the ho just didn't like what they had.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

A good recent thread about this on the Ridgid forum. I will post a link to the discussion of it, if its is okay by the rules. If not, then delete the post.
Tankless estimates.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

A customer of mine recently picked up a Bosch Aquastar for $300.


Might be a good deal, but it's an old "new" one in the box. I started about the flue piping and the degree rise and 2.5 stories of height to get to his wife's shower and the lady of the house freaked!

Their heating bill there is so staggering, and they wouldn't be opening walls to insulate their water lines. 

Then I told them to contact Bosch and "pretend" like it's broken and see if they provide the necessary repair parts, and if they are still available.

I think I ruined that guy's night and that $300 device his church friend swore was a good idea. 

The wifey likes me though...

In a professional plumber kinda way. :laughing:


Oh wait, :blink:


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## trout lake (May 9, 2009)

When it comes to tankless, I think what’s best has a lot to do with personal experience and hearsay. One bad experience on a service call on a particular unit by a particular manufacturer and your minds made up….. they’re crap.
I’m a bit like Protech in that it has to be a special situation before I go tankless.
Why:
1) To start with, I find the tech support at the local wholesalers nil. If you have a problem it’s some guy on the line from Georgia walking you through the issue.
2) Smellslike$tome had a good point. Adjusting the firing rate is a problem. Because of the modulating gas valve, you simply can’t go to your low and high firing rates to get an accurate reading. Most of the units have a port on the inlet gas line you can tap into but all that does is gives you your delivery pressure. Big deal. I can get that from any of the other gas appliances in the house. If they’re not a mile away, there is no difference. The Nevian unit can be checked and is the only one I like for accurate readings on gas and air pressure. For low, you can set the 3d stage minimum dip switch to on, hook up your manometer to the gas pressure sensor tube for your high, and the other leg of your manometer to the low air sensor tube on both the main gas valve and the blower. Zero out the manometer and open a tap. Adjust the differentials to the factory sets with the dial on the proportional valve and your smoking.
3) older homes need to have their lines upgraded if they’re ½ inch to ¾ to meet the manufactures supply recommendations
4) screens on the water flow sensor will always cause nuisance shut downs with any impurities in the water
5) if you don’t enable the recirculation mode (not from factory) the things take forever to heat up. If the customer wants hot on demand you need this feature hooked up. Means tying in a re-circ in the basement 
6) the cost. Basic units run a grand. Add the stainless piping required like with Takagi units (manufacture required or null warrantee) and your soon looking at the back end of 2 grand (your cost). Add some install and the unit gets a touch pricy.
7) last but not least. Lots of customers complain about the gas smell they seem to be smelling around the PVC termination pipe right next to their favourite garden chair. The first time I had a call on it I thought the unit was faulty. Not so says tech support. “The problem is he says, is that Europeans have had these things for eons and are use to them. We in North America are not”. SAY WHAT!!! Well he says the gas valve modulates down to a burp when the tap is extinguished and the wiff is the smell you will get as the valve fully close in the post purge cycle.
Try explaining that the Betty-Lou- (my eyes have fogged over) Cragmont on a hot summers day.

Other than those issues…. …….they’re ok I guess
tl


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Ok, the reason I don't recommend tankless to most people is that is serves no purpose. In most cases the thin will now pay for it self in it's life span. They are finicky and unreliable. They cost an arm and a leg and serve no real purpose.

Case and point. I just did a call today where this lady installed a "power star" electric tankless and it blew up yesterday 4-5 years later. We ended up putting in a standard tanked electric to replace it. She spent all that money to switch to a tankless and the POS blew up in 5 years. It never even came close to paying for itself.

OK mr.tankless, your turn.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Protech said:


> Ok, the reason I don't recommend tankless to most people is that is serves no purpose. In most cases the thin will now pay for it self in it's life span. They are finicky and unreliable. They cost an arm and a leg and serve no real purpose.
> 
> Case and point. I just did a call today where this lady installed a "power star" electric tankless and it blew up yesterday 4-5 years later. We ended up putting in a standard tanked electric to replace it. She spent all that money to switch to a tankless and the POS blew up in 5 years. It never even came close to paying for itself.
> 
> OK mr.tankless, your turn.


Electric tankless is a whole other kettle of fish imo. I am unaware of any electric tankless product on the market currently that can achieve anything much beyond 4 gallons of water per minute and I think that is with a 45* rise in temp. This is completely inadequate for the average 2+ bathroom house. I routinely install the N-0751 in up to a 3 bath house, set the outlet temp for 110*, turn on virtually everything in the house and still have capacity left according to the maintenance monitor. The limiting factor, in my experience, is always the limitation of the water distribution system to provide sufficient supply with everything or nearly everything open. The fact is that noone will run everything at once anyway under normal circumstances but get a house full of company at Christmas or some other time of the year and you will want every drop you can get and you won't want to wait for it to heat up. The largest electric units will also require about 160 amps which will always require an additional 200 amp panel. I've never run across a house yet that had an extra 160 amp capacity on an existing panel. That would be like providing a 2 bath house with a 1" or 1.5" water distribution system, it just isn't done. 

I never recommend electric tankless. I have turned some people who wanted (or thought they did) electric back to gas when gas was an option. I would install electric if someone was determined and there was not the option of gas but not before thoroughly explaining what they should expect. I have seen some condos where I would have dearly loved to have been able to have offered electric tankless rather than try to deal with the low boys that were crammed into place and then piped up afterwards, leaving removal impossible without killing the water to the entire building and at least partial removal of the hvac support framing (we were too much on that job and wound up not doing it, oh darn). 

In general, electric just doesn't cut the mustard (on paper, I've yet to install one). Ng tankless or even propane on the other hand is running about $700 - $900 or so more than our "standard" 40 gallon tank install. This number is net cost, it is a lot more on the front side but with the tax credit and our local gas utility rebate ($350.00) it brings the net cost down to a level that makes A LOT of sense. If you figure $100 a year in energy savings your payback, on our installation, will usually be somewhere between 6 and 10 years which is less than DOE estimates of 10 - 15 year lifespan for the average tank type. This of course is strictly considering energy savings. Take into account the out of the box warranty and the increase in longevity (yes this is a projected longevity based on the repairability of the unit, if something breaks you simply repair that component instead of replacing the entire unit as you would with a compromised tank) and if the thing only lasts 10 years and dies you haven't done any worse than you would have with a tank and you never, ever ran out of hot water, you freed up some floor space (this is a very big deal for some), you have a beautiful piece (depending on the manufacturer) of water heating technology that most people do not have to show off to all your family, friends and neighbors (this is a big deal to some), you added what is generally considered a very nice resale feature should you decide to sell your house and oh yeah did I mention that you never, ever ran out of hot water.

Listen to me! I sound like a preacher :laughing:!!! If you don't like tankless and think it's a rip off, that's fine, just keep thinking that. In fact, I guess really I shouldn't promote it at all because it only shrinks my market share when other people dive into the tankless pool.


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## tooslow (Jul 17, 2009)

*Noritz*

The tankless wave is gaining momentum in Calif.

I just spoke with the factory Rep. here in Southern Calif. and I have signed up for an install class on Aug. 13 at their center in Fountain Valley.

While talking to him I asked how many plumbers will be at the class? He said he expects 30 to 40. Mercy, where is the scrap metal place that will accept this many tank Heaters? He LOL.

I did compare pricing with Noritz and Tagagi and found the Noritz to be about a $100.00 more on the smaller unit. Vent prices are in the same ballpark as well.

As a side question, how many of you guys and gals when sizing for the gas line would go ahead and run a new dedicated line from the meter to the new unit, and run it in the flexible Trackpipe or Gastite configuration?

As with the tankless heater this piping system is new to me as well.

Noritz is supplying dinner at the class!!

Pat


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## A Good Plumber (Jun 18, 2008)

tooslow said:


> The tankless wave is gaining momentum in Calif.





tooslow said:


> I just spoke with the factory Rep. here in Southern Calif. and I have signed up for an install class on Aug. 13 at their center in Fountain Valley.
> 
> While talking to him I asked how many plumbers will be at the class? He said he expects 30 to 40. Mercy, where is the scrap metal place that will accept this many tank Heaters? He LOL.
> 
> ...





I very nearly always install a dedicated line from the meter to the tankless, because the existing is very rarely sized to handle the additional BTU load.

As for Gastite. Never. We hard pipe everything above grade and use HDPE for pipe buried below grade.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Any way I crunch the numbers, the gas tankless doesn't make sense unless it's a new home or they already have a big enough gas line and vent(which is never) on a retrofit. Solar beats the tankless every time around here.

Tell ya what. Sell me gastankless. Let's say I still have my old electric 40 gal. 2 poeple living in the home. It costs me $60 a month to heat wate with that setup(metered, not a guess). No natural gas here. Propane would be my only option. Tell ya what, just to be a good sport, let's say I do have a natural gas meter out front. Ok mr. tankless salesmen, sell me on it



smellslike$tome said:


> Electric tankless is a whole other kettle of fish imo. I am unaware of any electric tankless product on the market currently that can achieve anything much beyond 4 gallons of water per minute and I think that is with a 45* rise in temp. This is completely inadequate for the average 2+ bathroom house. I routinely install the N-0751 in up to a 3 bath house, set the outlet temp for 110*, turn on virtually everything in the house and still have capacity left according to the maintenance monitor. The limiting factor, in my experience, is always the limitation of the water distribution system to provide sufficient supply with everything or nearly everything open. The fact is that noone will run everything at once anyway under normal circumstances but get a house full of company at Christmas or some other time of the year and you will want every drop you can get and you won't want to wait for it to heat up. The largest electric units will also require about 160 amps which will always require an additional 200 amp panel. I've never run across a house yet that had an extra 160 amp capacity on an existing panel. That would be like providing a 2 bath house with a 1" or 1.5" water distribution system, it just isn't done.
> 
> I never recommend electric tankless. I have turned some people who wanted (or thought they did) electric back to gas when gas was an option. I would install electric if someone was determined and there was not the option of gas but not before thoroughly explaining what they should expect. I have seen some condos where I would have dearly loved to have been able to have offered electric tankless rather than try to deal with the low boys that were crammed into place and then piped up afterwards, leaving removal impossible without killing the water to the entire building and at least partial removal of the hvac support framing (we were too much on that job and wound up not doing it, oh darn).
> 
> ...


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> Any way I crunch the numbers, the gas tankless doesn't make sense unless it's a new home or they already have a big enough gas line and vent(which is never) on a retrofit. Solar beats the tankless every time around here.
> 
> Tell ya what. Sell me gastankless. Let's say I still have my old electric 40 gal. 2 poeple living in the home. It costs me $60 a month to heat wate with that setup(metered, not a guess). No natural gas here. Propane would be my only option. Tell ya what, just to be a good sport, let's say I do have a natural gas meter out front. Ok mr. tankless salesmen, sell me on it


 Thanks for having the gonads to say it. I've been screaming the samething for 5 years now and all I get is a dirty look. Thank you sir!:thumbsup:


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

I explain to the home owners that want a tankless system that its more of a luxury item around here. Since it will provide them endless amounts of hot water.

One advantage is after it has been installed, it will not cost much to keep it running. What I mean is lets say 12 years down the road the unit springs a leak. You do not need to replace the whole unit, just the leaking part. Let me see you do that for a leaking tank heater. I can get to the heat exchanger inside of a Noritz unit in 25 minutes and have it all put back together in another 25 minutes. So lets say an hour in all plus the cost of the leaking part. Easy enough.

Now for a restaurant I have first hand that they get a huge savings going tankless. The gas is already properly sized to run multiple tankless units, just need to do the venting. The two places I have done has seen over a 50% savings each month on their gas bill.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

tooslow said:


> The tankless wave is gaining momentum in Calif.
> 
> I just spoke with the factory Rep. here in Southern Calif. and I have signed up for an install class on Aug. 13 at their center in Fountain Valley.
> 
> ...


You should be able to learn some new things at the class. Be on time & they feed you!


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech said:


> Any way I crunch the numbers, the gas tankless doesn't make sense unless it's a new home or they already have a big enough gas line and vent(which is never) on a retrofit. Solar beats the tankless every time around here.
> 
> Tell ya what. Sell me gastankless. Let's say I still have my old electric 40 gal. 2 poeple living in the home. It costs me $60 a month to heat wate with that setup(metered, not a guess). No natural gas here. Propane would be my only option. Tell ya what, just to be a good sport, let's say I do have a natural gas meter out front. Ok mr. tankless salesmen, sell me on it


 
I could sell it...easilly!! I could prolly sell you a water softener too...even if you have one already. But that's not the point. Electric tankless heaters are a joke and should never be included in this area. I don't support them, and I don't like them. If you can't get a propane line / tank into your house I don't want to know ya. As for cost...it gets to a point where it is not worth it $$$ wise to do. If you need a 3000 gas line....than tankless might not be the way for you. The house will decide if it is worth it. The most expensive gas line I ever did for tankless was 12 grand on a 17 grand job. It was not about "getting their money back" it was about a large family that was having extreme fights in the morning because they kept running out of hot water. To this day I am a hero in that house.

but you all miss the point with tankless.....it's NOT an investment. Do you buy a Toyota Prius because you hope to one day sell it for more than you paid for it? Of course not....that's dumb. You buy it because you like the enviornment...you like the huge savings in fuel....you like all the other little things about it. Tankless is the same thing

I am not selling tankless units because of the huge gas savings.....taking a 40 dollar bill and making it into 32 is not gonna get it done. 
People are buying endless hot water
People are buying some of there useable sq. footage back
People are buying a smaller "carbon footprint"
People are buying 1 heater to last the same as two tanked. ANd if they are installed correctly...they absolutly will.

Ken, whats it cost to replace 2 tanked heaters? 1100 each? ok...that's 2200.

average tankless is 3000

Two tanked heaters will buy you 20 years of hot water.
tankless should last 20 - 25 years.

How do these numbers not make sense? Unless the people just don't have it, I close just about every single one of my bids. It's getting to the point where I am getting bored with it......the numbers back up the product. I know you love solar....but I assume you have a family to feed too.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Thanks for having the gonads to say it. I've been screaming the samething for 5 years now and all I get is a dirty look. Thank you sir!:thumbsup:


Here's another one :laughing:


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Tankless said:


> Here's another one :laughing:


Try again


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Can someone show me one of these 25year old tankless water heaters I keep hearing about? I've seen plenty of solar heaters last 20 years untouched but I've never seen one of these 20 year old tankless water heaters that haven't been touched. In fact, I haven't even seen a 20 year old tankless heater PERIOD! Anyone here really gonna try and tell me with a straight face that the majority of tankless heaters are going to last 20-25 years? Get real. Look tankless, if you want to sell it as a luxury item so be it. Don't try to tell me that it is going to have a cheaper life cycle though. Not happening. It's not very green ether. Well, maybe a little greener than the tank, but not much.

My point is this(my setup, my area. your milage may vary):

Gas Tankless. $3500 by the time you put your lines in and you still have cold water sandwich. Payback will be little or nonexistent. Slightly “green”. Unreliable, service intensive.

Solar. $4500. Virtually free to operate once installed. Very green, damn near zero carbon foot print. 5 year payback. 30-40% of costs subsidized by uncle sam via rebates. NO COLD WATER SANDWICH. Very reliable(if designed and installed right). No proprietary parts(if something breaks you get a replacement part from a variety of manufacturers, if takagi stops making parts or goes under your SOL)



Tankless said:


> I could sell it...easilly!! I could prolly sell you a water softener too...even if you have one already. But that's not the point. Electric tankless heaters are a joke and should never be included in this area. I don't support them, and I don't like them. If you can't get a propane line / tank into your house I don't want to know ya. As for cost...it gets to a point where it is not worth it $$$ wise to do. If you need a 3000 gas line....than tankless might not be the way for you. The house will decide if it is worth it. The most expensive gas line I ever did for tankless was 12 grand on a 17 grand job. It was not about "getting their money back" it was about a large family that was having extreme fights in the morning because they kept running out of hot water. To this day I am a hero in that house.
> 
> but you all miss the point with tankless.....it's NOT an investment. Do you buy a Toyota Prius because you hope to one day sell it for more than you paid for it? Of course not....that's dumb. You buy it because you like the enviornment...you like the huge savings in fuel....you like all the other little things about it. Tankless is the same thing
> 
> ...


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

It may not work as well everywhere, but overall I agree with Protech, solar is way more efficient than gas tankless. I think solar energy in general is going to be huge. soon. Especially in Protech's neighborhood and other warm, sunny climates.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

No one wants big ass collectors on their roofs...period. This is why solar is where it is. Tankless came out (at least in the states) long after solar and flew right past it. Two biggest complaints I hear (i'm just sayin) is this: 1- the size and looks of a solar HW system, two- the cost for repairs is far greater (just sayin), and finally the dredded HOA's.....

Maybe it works for you where you are...but out here it's going tankless. I personally don't give a shyit if it lasts 20 or 25 years....I don't care if it last 3 years. I only care about the quality of installation that I do, the rest is not up to me and it's beyond my control. The manufacturers are claiming 20-25 yrs.....that's their claim, not mine...I'm just selling them / installing them. They work fantastic, they do exactly what they say they will do and my brand (Noritz) has a very very small failure rate. I fixed my seconf Rinnai this week...what a POS those are....looks like it's straight out of China.

Point is, it works great for me. I feed my family and make customers happy, other than that I really don't care too much more. There are more important things in life than this. I'm sorry that you have a hard time selling your solar systems with all these tankless installations going on around you........maybe it's a pride thing, in that you think you are right to offer solar, and maybe you don't realize it doesn't matter what you think. The market will demand the product not you or I. Keep spending thousands on ads for solar....maybe you will break even,,,maybe you will earn a buck or two. But to me you sound like a disgruntled solar salesmen mad at the tankless world. If you can't beat them, join them. There is logic in that bud.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

I just want to get one clear here:

This is just one guys opinion...that's it. I have the knowledge and experience as well as the technicle expertise to back up my comments, but it's just my POV. Please do not turn this into a pissing match. There are alot of guys reading this who don't comment much and this is their education on the topic. I very much respect Ken, and I have seen, he does a good job for his clients. his market may call for more Solar, mine doesn't really. if we are going to get into Solar verses tankless, I think that could be alot of fun....but I gotta go start another remdod right now. Behave....


Master: the pic of the angry kid was a joke........just a little funny to start the day.....no fighting.


I think I am turning into a pussy as I get older....God this sucks


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

I project the current tankless systems are going to become outdated very quickly. Like it or not, our government is spending a ton of money to get the country to go "green" and if there is one thing the USA is good at, its making things happen. The technology of energy efficiency is still in its diaper years, and I believe we are going to see some serious advances in this area in the coming decades.
Some scientists somewhere are going to figure out easier ways to harness the incredibly abundant solar energy that bombards us everyday, and they are going to revolutionize energy in the world. Oil and other primitive forms of raw energy will become extinct eventually, once the physicists of us find out how to better harness the energy around us.
For now, solar is a little bulky and expensive. Hopefully technology will come along soon that will allow solar energy to be cheaply harnessed without large, expensive systems.
I would really like to see a small solar system that could compete with tankless. I think it will happen in my lifetime.

On the business side, I am waiting to see if the current tankless craze is a fad or not, or if a new technology comes along and makes all those expensive tankless look ridiculous and inefficient. Maybe I am missing out on some great business opportunity, but I gave up on tankless after getting beat out by other plumbers willing to put them in for peanuts on every one I bid, so my opinion in this matter doesn't really matter. For now I am putting my money into the sewer and drain business and I install regular tank water heater systems. No tankless. If the trend continues and tankless take over the market, of course I will get on the bandwagon. Have to survive, whatever the environment brings.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Some numbers for your viewing pleasure. The demands and environmental conditions for the 3 heaters are the same. I'm assuming a usage of 85 gallons per day going from 70F to 125F. Electrical rate is $0.14 per kwa and gas is $1.60 per therm. Solar data is for central FL with the collector facing within 45 degrees of south. 

Edit: A couple things I should note. Those numbers don't take into account any government incentives or rebates, nor do they account for energy cost inflation. If they did, the solar would do even better. I was just trying to keep it simple, you get the picture.

Edit2: If you want to factor in incentives, subtract $1700 from the install price on the solar and $1267.50 on the gas tankless.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Before I say this, let me make it clear that I absolutely hate electric tankless. Stiebel Eltron has the Tempra 36 model that puts out 5.5gpm at 45delta T. Stiebel Eltron makes a damn fine electric tankless......as far as electric tankless goes that is



smellslike$tome said:


> Electric tankless is a whole other kettle of fish imo. I am unaware of any electric tankless product on the market currently that can achieve anything much beyond 4 gallons of water per minute and I think that is with a 45* rise in temp. This is completely inadequate for the average 2+ bathroom house. I routinely install the N-0751 in up to a 3 bath house, set the outlet temp for 110*, turn on virtually everything in the house and still have capacity left according to the maintenance monitor. The limiting factor, in my experience, is always the limitation of the water distribution system to provide sufficient supply with everything or nearly everything open. The fact is that noone will run everything at once anyway under normal circumstances but get a house full of company at Christmas or some other time of the year and you will want every drop you can get and you won't want to wait for it to heat up. The largest electric units will also require about 160 amps which will always require an additional 200 amp panel. I've never run across a house yet that had an extra 160 amp capacity on an existing panel. That would be like providing a 2 bath house with a 1" or 1.5" water distribution system, it just isn't done.
> 
> I never recommend electric tankless. I have turned some people who wanted (or thought they did) electric back to gas when gas was an option. I would install electric if someone was determined and there was not the option of gas but not before thoroughly explaining what they should expect. I have seen some condos where I would have dearly loved to have been able to have offered electric tankless rather than try to deal with the low boys that were crammed into place and then piped up afterwards, leaving removal impossible without killing the water to the entire building and at least partial removal of the hvac support framing (we were too much on that job and wound up not doing it, oh darn).
> 
> ...


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I already got into what turned into an arguement with a guy that worked for Mr. electric...a franchised electrical repair company. He asked me if I installed many tankless. I said "No" he comes back with "why" I say they cost cost to much to install in an existing home. He says he "works on jobs with so and so plumbing and they install alot of them" I say well good I'm glad your getting work but they still suck. He comes back with "why". I stop what I'm doing and look him right in the eyes and say "becuase I've been a plumber for over 20 years and I say they suck thats why" Then i asked him what heater he installed today...he says "Noritz" I said ok heres why they suck...."get on the phone and call the place you bought the Noritz from and tell them the flow switch is bad on the heater and you need another one and see what your answer is" Thats one reason why they suck!!! you cant buy a part for it off the shelf. i have a stock room full of gas controls and thermocouples,thermostats,elements ETC. and the brands interchange on most electric and some gas. I came about 3 seconds from telling the guy HE was an idiot and dont talk to me anymore.....he had that franchise swagger. I took some of the strut out of his walk and he needed it.


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## trout lake (May 9, 2009)

You boys sure get the grunts about about something as simple as a hot shower.
$17,000 to put a gas line in for a water heater??? Do you guys down there have any problems with getting permits to pipe from one state to another?
tl


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## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

Be the first plumber to install a WILKS WATER HEATER and GARBAGE CREMATORY. These guys were GREEN before the bean. 

I could'nt upload the pic.


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## Raleigh Plumbin (May 1, 2009)

*Tankless Heaters*

First Timer - Hope i'm doing it right.
We put in a bunch of tankless heaters. Albeit mostly new home installs, but nevertheless we have installed a bunch of Navien, Noritz and Rinnai units. Each brand has its own set of unique benifits. You mentioned the problem of finding venting materials. The Navien unit vents with sch. 40 PVC (much cheaper and available!) Their units have stainless steel heat exchangers and one of the best warrantee's of any tankless heater. No outdoor model as of yet, but they're working on it. The also have a system with a built in recirculation system that is programable through the key pad for a couple hunder more. Check them out - pretty slick.


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