# Pc4



## Plumber patt

Do any of you use pc4? I am a service plumber, we had a call where there was a "leak on a cast iron stack" I got to the call, and found a hub and spigot wye used for the base clean out. In the end of the wye there no clean out fitting. Just a temporary plug. So I got a cast iron clean out fitting, put it in the hub of the wye and used pc4 to seal it. I thought it was a good fix. My boss called today and didn't think pc4 was a great fix, he proposed we should have cut the wye out and replaced with a proper clean out fitting with mj bands.... My question is, do u guys think pc4 is a good fix? Or would u have cut out the wye... ?


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## SlickRick

Why didn't you just put a gasket in the hub?


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## Plumber patt

Gasket?


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## Plumber Jim

One of these:


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## Plumber patt

I have never seen those before


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## Plumber Jim

Used instead of lead.


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## SlickRick

Or these..


http://www.fernco.com/plumbing/donuts-o-rings/multi-tite-pipe-gaskets


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## AlbacoreShuffle

I can see your boss's point.
It would have been a nice up sale to replace the Wye.
From the boss's point of view , you left money on the table.


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## Plumber patt

So those just slide in? I still think pc4 is a much better fix... Your sealing the pipe completely permanently with concrete basically


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## SlickRick

Plumber patt said:


> So those just slide in? I still think pc4 is a much better fix... Your sealing the pipe completely permanently with concrete basically


Your joking, right?


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## Plumber patt

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> I can see your boss's point.
> It would have been a nice up sale to replace the Wye.
> From the boss's point of view , you left money on the table.


Ya but replacing the wye involves, ripping out a drywall bulk head. Cutting out the wye. Then replacing drywall, mud, tape, paint etc. Seems a little over dramatic for something that has nothing wrong with it other than not having a fitting...


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## Plumber patt

SlickRick said:


> Your joking, right?


You really think a rubber insert is better?


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## Tommy plumber

Don't canadians pour lead? You could've packed some oakum into the joint and then poured some lead.

What the hell is pc4 anyway?


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## SlickRick

Plumber patt said:


> You really think a rubber insert is better?


I don't think a non-approved joint is better, that's for sure.


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## Mississippiplum

Tommy plumber said:


> What the hell is pc4 anyway?


Im wondering that also lol


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## Plumber patt

Tommy plumber said:


> Don't canadians pour lead? You could've packed some oakum into the joint and then poured some lead.
> 
> What the hell is pc4 anyway?


We definitely do not pour lead.... Pc4 is basically horse hair covered in hydraulic cement. And u put the fitting in the hub. Soak the pc4 and pack it nice and tight into the gap around the fitting. And in an hour or so it's rock hard and water proof


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## Plumber patt

SlickRick said:


> I don't think a non-approved joint is better, that's for sure.


How is pc4 not approved? They teach us how to do it in trade school saying it's the new age replacement for lead and oakum...


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## Mississippiplum

Personally, I think a lead joint is the best in that situation, rubber gasket being seconde if I couldn't caulk the joint, but I defintly wouldnt use stuff that's similar to mighty putty, lol.


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## Plumber patt

Mississippiplum said:


> Personally, I think a lead joint is the best in that situation, rubber gasket being seconde if I couldn't caulk the joint, but I defintly wouldnt use stuff that's similar to mighty putty, lol.


It's actually nothing like mighty putty


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## Mississippiplum

Plumber patt said:


> It's actually nothing like mighty putty


Still I wouldn't use something like that, just my opinion, code wouldnt allow it here n/e way.


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## SlickRick

Plumber patt said:


> How is pc4 not approved? They teach us how to do it in trade school saying it's the new age replacement for lead and oakum...


I have never worked in Canada, maybe it is. I guess you guy's are reinventing the wheel. The neoprene gasket is the new age replacement for lead and oakum, and millions have been installed.


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## Plumber patt

7.3.2.8. Cold-Caulked Joints
Cold-caulked joints shall not be used except for bell and spigot pipe in water system, a drainage system or a venting system.
The caulking compound used in cold-caulked joints shall be applied according to the manufacturer's directions.
Every cold-caulked joint in a drainage system shall be firmly packed with oakum and tightly caulked with cold-caulking compound to a depth of at least 25 mm.
Every cold-caulking joint in a water system shall be made by tightly caulking the entire depth of the socket with caulking compound.


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## SlickRick

Ok, why would your boss have a problem then?


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## 89plumbum

Tommy plumber said:


> Don't canadians pour lead? You could've packed some oakum into the joint and then poured some lead.
> 
> What the hell is pc4 anyway?


I worked in Canada for a few years and I remember them having pc4, I believe it is actually for cast iron pipe n fittings. I have learned that 99% of bosses think like Mr. Crabs "money, money,money". I did have an employer tell me once that it makes customers feel warm n fuzzy when they see you replacing a fitting or a section of bad pipe even if there is an easier way to do it.:thumbsup:


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## Plumber patt

SlickRick said:


> Ok, why would your boss have a problem then?


That's what I don't understand


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## Plumbus

Plumber patt said:


> 7.3.2.8. Cold-Caulked Joints
> Cold-caulked joints shall not be used except for bell and spigot pipe in water system, a drainage system or a venting system.
> The caulking compound used in cold-caulked joints shall be applied according to the manufacturer's directions.
> Every cold-caulked joint in a drainage system shall be firmly packed with oakum and tightly caulked with cold-caulking compound to a depth of at least 25 mm.
> Every cold-caulking joint in a water system shall be made by tightly caulking the entire depth of the socket with caulking compound.


 Hand your boss a copy of the above and ask him why he doesn't approve of this technique.


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## U666A

Plumber patt said:


> We definitely do not pour lead.... Pc4 is basically horse hair covered in hydraulic cement. And u put the fitting in the hub. Soak the pc4 and pack it nice and tight into the gap around the fitting. And in an hour or so it's rock hard and water proof


Decent explaination Pat.

The only thing I disagree with is soaking the cord first. The #1 reason for leaking cold caulked joints is the use of too much water. It washes away all the cement. Proper technique involves spraying the coiled cord in your hand with a squirt bottle before installation. Water is also applied again after the yarning and tooling is done.

I've heard of guys that put the cord in dry, and wet the chisel before each whack.


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## plumber666

I've worked with PC-4 a few times and it worked like a hot damn. I even used it on a reno to connect 2" ABS into a wye from the 1930's. It was for a sump pump five years ago and has never leaked, and there's a fair bit of vibration. Maybe I should have posted that part in the "Sorry I'm such a Hack" thread.


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## rocksteady

One of the joys of being an employee. :thumbsup:

I don't see why PC4 wouldn't be a fine way to do the repair but I've never worked with it and all I know about it is enclosed in this thread.

Ultimately it's your boss' decision as to how he wants his plumbers to work. As long as he's not asking you to do things in an illegal and non code approved way, his word is the last word. 





Paul


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## DesertOkie

Plumber patt said:


> So those just slide in? I still think pc4 is a much better fix... Your sealing the pipe completely permanently with concrete basically


Once you get your pipe into that gasket you'll see that it's real strong. You might bevel the edge first.:thumbup:


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## surfdog

lead okum


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## Epox

SlickRick said:


> Ok, why would your boss have a problem then?


I'm wondering about thier work load. The boss may have seen time and money left on the table ( as already stated) that really could have benefitted the company at the time. Could also be he simply felt a bandaid was applied. I've seen it around but never used it. I can see some merit to it in some instances.


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## cityplumbing

Maybe your boss was having a bad day and he decided to take it out on you. He was probably thinking you could have made him money (as stated already) by replacing the fitting.


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## SlickRick

mpsllc said:


> I'm wondering about thier work load. The boss may have seen time and money left on the table ( as already stated) that really could have benefitted the company at the time. Could also be he simply felt a bandaid was applied. I've seen it around but never used it. I can see some merit to it in some instances.


Yeah, but this was just taking out a blind plug, and putting in a c/o. Hard to justify re-piping the building IMO.


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## Plumber patt

Our work load is extremely busy, and Rick is right. My logic is why go through all that expense to the customer? The fitting was fine, just didn't have a clean out. I would feel I was ripping my customer off by ripping out an entire dry wall bulk head. Plugging off the roof. Snapping out the wye. Installing a new mj wye. Then he's stuck with having to have the wall re framed, re dry walled, mudded, taped, painted etc. This is a long time customer not just a random as well


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## SlickRick

There is another one of those bulk heads.


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## Epox

SlickRick said:


> Yeah, but this was just taking out a blind plug, and putting in a c/o. Hard to justify re-piping the building IMO.


 I totally agree. I'm just trying to understand the boss's motives for not likeing the repair that was made.


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## Mississippiplum

I personally have no problem with the repair, I was kinda skeptical about the pc4 stuff but, If code covers it no biggy. I wouldn't charge a customer to do something a bit excessive that can be accomplished a better and more logical way such as In this case


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## jeffreyplumber

I was laughing at this pc-4 buisness but hell if thats legal in canada then I would give it a try. Ive done only a minimum of lead work . So I would opt for the fernco doughnut, didnt know they were for lead bell end, thought they were only specific newer fittings.


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## red_devil

Oakum and pc-4 works ace. For service repairs, I used it all the time. pack, sprinkle with water and caulk that bad boy, nothing else to her. I only work with cast now and never see it anymore all no hub. 

I asked in trade school if they would let us pour a lead joint, he laughed at me and said not a chance lol


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## OldSchool

Do they still make PC4.....

I think I stop using that stuff over 15 years ago...

Use to be an everyday thing and aways had some in the vans .... I haven't had a reason to buy some in a very long time


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## red_devil

ya last time I bought it was like 5 years ago for I think 100 bucks a can. 

Never used one of those sleeves I think called "bibby bi-seal" or something to that nature for a caulked joint but right now its -10 or so outside (*c) and I'm having a heck of a time with no hub bands, I couldn't imagine that being to easy in cold weather.


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## Plumber patt

Oh ya they sell it, the suppliers we deal with all stock it


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## Piper34

I personally never heard of this material but Ihave no problem with regular or lead oakum packed tightly and "plastic seal" It doesn't leak installed properly ,and unless there is a need to pick up more space or rotate the Y direction ,I would charge enough for A quality job and move on


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## plumbfire

red_devil said:


> Oakum and pc-4 works ace. For service repairs, I used it all the time. pack, sprinkle with water and caulk that bad boy, nothing else to her. I only work with cast now and never see it anymore all no hub.
> 
> I asked in trade school if they would let us pour a lead joint, he laughed at me and said not a chance lol


I've used PC4 (Philplug cold caulking compound cord) for many years and it works excellent. I've been doing this since 1979 and never poured a lead and oakum joint except in trade school. Not even sure where you would find a yarning, inside, outside iron anymore.


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## Miguel

I'll stand behind the PC-4 as being a potentially proper repair. Properly applied it makes a rock solid joint that'd prolly snap the pipe just above or below the bell if enough force was applied.
Haven't used it in years but I could likely find several repairs done in the '80's that're still holding.


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## jeffreyplumber

plumbfire said:


> I've used PC4 (Philplug cold caulking compound cord) for many years and it works excellent. I've been doing this since 1979 and never poured a lead and oakum joint except in trade school. Not even sure where you would find a yarning, inside, outside iron anymore.


Never used or heard of this product . Sounds good for repair work. Question though... Dont you ever use lead and oakum on closet rings? We still do where there are lots of them to do like a few dozen or more. Im not knocking your process but can this actualy pass inspection? Or just a repair?
Thanks


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## billy_awesome

I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents.....

Work with PC4 all the time, stuff is just friggen awesome, a lot better for your health than working with lead. 

The joke at our shop is the hair in the pc4 isnt actually horse hair, but in fact our bosses hair that he pulls out from dealing with contractors.....ahhh gotta love inside jokes.....


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## PlumberForHire

Plumber patt said:


> Oh ya they sell it, the suppliers we deal with all stock it


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## PlumberForHire

Just an FYI my father is going to die from Mesothelioma and we are going through lawyers for claiming against manufacturerers of these asbestos cancer- cancer causing products----my dad worked form 1960- to 1980s with transite pipe -john mansville to crane craneite gaskets to using this Expandite PC4 and we even found a can at his house yesterday- we are sure it has asbestos and looking into it - so be careful as so much powder on that packing


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## PlumberForHire

Expandite PC4 Philplug Cold Caulking Compound Chord Cord from the 1970's 1980's in those photos fyi- contact me if you have or need any asbestos cancer information from plumbing...i am researching all of this for my father who has asbestos cancer - Mesothelioma from his plumbing career -I even worked with this stuff as a 14-16 year old ! Ill take a photo of the inside/chord and will post for everyones information....


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## OpenSights

PlumberForHire said:


> Just an FYI my father is going to die from Mesothelioma and we are going through lawyers for claiming against manufacturerers of these asbestos cancer- cancer causing products----my dad worked form 1960- to 1980s with transite pipe -john mansville to crane craneite gaskets to using this Expandite PC4 and we even found a can at his house yesterday- we are sure it has asbestos and looking into it - so be careful as so much powder on that packing
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## PlumberForHire

OpenSights said:


> READ BEFORE POSTING: Welcome To PlumbingZone.com
> 
> 
> PlumbingZone is a site for Plumbing Professionals Only, who are interested in promoting and improving the Plumbing trade. We want to take a moment to welcome you to the community! We truly do look forward to getting to know you and interacting with you in the forums. :) Please take a moment...
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PlumbingZone.com Is For Plumbing Professionals Only
> 
> 
> PlumbingZone is a site for Plumbing Professionals Only, who are interested in promoting and improving the Plumbing trade. In our community the term "Plumbing Professional" refers to the following persons: Master Plumber, Plumbing Contractor, Journeyman Plumber, Pipe Fitter, Apprentice...
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ok just did that, sorry


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