# tankless my a$$



## Bonafide (Feb 24, 2010)

For those of you who specialize in in tankless appliances, how do you profit?

I get people always asking to upgrade from the conventional tank-type to a condensing boiler, but when i give em the total price they start trippin wanting to negotiate this and that. But when i replace a tank for tank i make more $$ to pocket. Because of this I am proud to say that I am not a fan of this whole tankless takeover. 

Even wit the water heaters, with the tank my annual service plans tend to hold me over in addition to allowing me to enter a clients home. How do u service a tankless, or what preventative maintenance can you do to even offer a plan?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Seeing this section is all about boilers.... you must be talking about a boilers such as New York thermal NTI or teledyne larrs endurance combi type system (which are considered tankless or instant). 

You would offer service plans just like any other piece of equipment.


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## Bonafide (Feb 24, 2010)

Yea you right, i just seen hot water and hit the keys. Still curious tho, flushing it seems irrelevant.

Just go into hydronic hieating about a year ago, installing is one thing but operating and troubleshooting is whole different ball game.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Bonafide said:


> Yea you right, i just seen hot water and hit the keys. Still curious tho, flushing it seems irrelevant.
> 
> Just go into hydronic hieating about a year ago, installing is one thing but operating and troubleshooting is whole different ball game.


Thats a big problem.... most of the the service calls I get is because somebody didn't install it right. You really must under stand operation and troubleshooting on these system before you attempt an install.....it will save you headaches in the future.:thumbsup:


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## Bonafide (Feb 24, 2010)

Installation instructions!


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

bonafide said:


> Just go into hydronic hieating about a year ago, installing is one thing but operating and troubleshooting is whole different ball game.


Oldschool is right. If you're installing then you should know how to service. As daunting as they look tho, they aren't all that complex once you learn the nuts 'n' bolts of it. You might need a special tool here and there and an unfamiliar unit may bamboozle you for a bit, but it's well worth learning about them.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Bonafide said:


> Installation instructions!


Yah you can't rely on that..... you missed the first instruction that this was a boiler section of the forum:whistling2:


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## Bonafide (Feb 24, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> Yah you can't rely on that..... you missed the first instruction that this was a boiler section of the forum:whistling2:


...lol im not arguing


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Bonafide said:


> ...lol im not arguing


 :laughing: neither was I :thumbsup:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*Delime Them Twice A Year*



Bonafide said:


> For those of you who specialize in in tankless appliances, how do you profit?
> 
> I get people always asking to upgrade from the conventional tank-type to a condensing boiler, but when i give em the total price they start trippin wanting to negotiate this and that. But when i replace a tank for tank i make more $$ to pocket. Because of this I am proud to say that I am not a fan of this whole tankless takeover.
> 
> Even wit the water heaters, with the tank my annual service plans tend to hold me over in addition to allowing me to enter a clients home. How do u service a tankless, or what preventative maintenance can you do to even offer a plan?


 


I am with you on this, I have never understood the people that wanted tankless heaters, their is a place selling them in *indy* for about 4500 installed.... of course this is nuts when you can install 4 normal tank type heaters for that price.... 

 depending on the area you have to De-lime them once or twice a year.... I dont know what the tankless experts charge for this service either...

the point is once you do all the maintaince to them, their is actually a neutral return on them..

Now the Eternal condenceing boilers--water heaters probably make more sense, I am trying to get my hands on one of them for an experiment in my own home....


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## ranman (Jan 24, 2010)

i believe there is a place for them but i did not use one when offered one to install. i had high flow car wash shower faucets and needed a high degree of rise for the water temp up from michigan cold to 130ish. it was way more than i wanted to deal with . i installed 2 hi eff 50`s in series and insulated the hot and the return lines. i never ran out. i talk more people out of them, due to install troubles. finished garages where the heaters are.

just my 2.5 cents


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

I don't really know what to tell you man.....Sure, they are not right for everyone. if I walk onto a job that looks to be pricy and I see a shyithole of a home....chances are it's not going to happen.

Here's another way of thinking about it. Honda Accord is a good car. Well built, reliable and safe. Put some gas in it, and it'll get you from here to there.

So, with that being the truth why would I buy a Lexus? They both do the same things no? One's just a bit nicer. Maybe has that AUX input on the stereo for your Ipod, or free OnStar (GM) or something like that.

Now, you boys that have really cold water incoming all year round......I dunno if it makes a lot of sense. But please, PLEASE for the love of God stop treating home appliances like a stock portfolio.

These units are NOT investments, they do not give you back more money than you put into them.

I don't care enough to explain all my ways and means of selling these things because I have done it so many times before, I'm sick of seeing my own writings. Just know this, I have NEVER sold someone something they didn't need, I have never offered a solution where tankless was the only option. With the experience I have and all I know about people and how / why they buy things I can tell pretty quick if this is a tankless customer or not. Some people have the idea that they need a tankless unit, when they are told they have a 5K proposal coming, we learn real quick what people THINK they need or not. Tankless is not for the economically challenged. Nor do you need to be Bill Gates to get one. 

I have learned the styles of homes out here, I know how they are all built and that vast experience allows me to accuratly bid the job. But people don't sign my bids because I am the cheapest.....you should see the initial email I send potential clients. I weed them out pretty quick now. People go with me, because I am simply better. My work is cleaner than nost others, my price is accurate and fair and let's face it, I am a younger good looking white guy. No offense, but my name is not Jose, and I am not 5'3". I have kids, I coach soccer and softball, I am active in the kids schools...etc...etc....I am trustworthy and I look the part. I don't have fancy shirts like Protech does (LOL) but people would leave their home open to me in a heart beat. THAT"S why I get the jobs I do. Be it a 3K or 20K tankless install. They are buying me, not a box of copper and electronics. 

There's more to plumbing than just plumbing people. I think the more sucessful people in this trade know this. I learned it from others, and put my own little whatevers into it, and here I am. I'm not rich (yet) but I'm still alive and kicking loudly. And in this economy, I think that's pretty damn good. Still selling a, for lack of a better term a luxury, in an economy that pretty bad right now.

And while I'm on my horse, I'll say that no one gave me ****. No one told me how great (or not) tankless units are. No one said hay James, you have a degree in electrical engineering and was a plumber to pay for school.....why not get into tankless, that is all about electronics and plumbing? Self made baby, and I'm here just trying to either educate some of you rocks or help out on installs or problems you can / will have to deal with. 
It's my little way of leaving this trade a little better than I found it.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> depending on the area you have to De-lime them once or twice a year.... I dont know what the tankless experts charge for this service either...
> 
> the point is once you do all the maintaince to them, *their is actually a neutral return on them*..


 
Ummm, and how many tankless units have you done? How many gas bills have you examined? How do you know if you need to de-scale once....or twice a year? Why not everyother year? Hell, Navien says they don't even need to be flushed. To make a statement(s) like you just did, would require a vast knowledge base and a wealth of real world experience, and with respect to this topic I don't think you have either. Some people call that talking out your ass. WTF does "A neutral Return" mean? 

Please know I am not saying this in a mean tone or a better than attitude. I have nothing against you...at all. Your comments are stated as fact....and all's I'm saying is, it's just not true.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*THATS OK...what is the average cost to delime??*

Nuetral does not imply negative,... 

just nill,,, nada,,,, or the saveings is bare minimial
for the money spent ....


Navien is only one brand out there which claims not 
needing to be de-limed once a year...more or less..


I am not trying to start anything here, I was just curious 
*how much it typically costs to de-lime one of them *
*on average??**.* and should you factor this expence into the overall saveings??

My best guess would be about 195.00 --250 for my trip out and time spent watching the vinegar do its work...



*you are absolutely right about people thinking that they are an *
*investment like a stock.....which will pay them back 5 to 10 fold...... *

*I wish the ones selling them here would*
*stop that practice....*



I will just put in the normal heaters and watch the parade go by....

some of the supply houses in town have already switched brands 
3 times in the past two years.....from Nortzs, to Takagi, now selling Rannia....
that dont inspire confidence in me ..


I presently have a small reatraunt on the south 
side that has a Commercial Rheem Ruud tankless unit 
in it that has been built into an area so tight that 
they cant make a change and are constantly having to 
de-lime the unit ...... of course the place has no room
for a softener so they are in a pickle....

I should have taken pictures


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## SummPlumb (Feb 19, 2010)

Our tankless around here are installed anywhere for 2-3 k. 

It is a niche market. It is not for everyone. 

I only install Rinnai. After Rheem had that big recall, I do not trust them.

I tell the customer everything up front. What to expect, what not to expect. What their actual cost should be, what they might save. 

Electricity is expensive around here. Tank model heaters usually last ten years. Most of our installs come on jobs that have 2 50 gal electric heaters. That is an easy sell when they are spending 1100 dollars a year operating cost.

Plus it frees up that space. no tanks to flood the house, and they get a rebate from the almighty O. 

I think being honest with the customer helps me in the long run. I do lose some jobs b/c their savings will only be borderline. And some jobs are just too expensive b/c the gas line has to be ran at twice the size across the house. 

Tankless heaters are bought with disposable money. If you have it to invest, in right situations, you will benefit.


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## SummPlumb (Feb 19, 2010)

Some of those Rheem units got recalled Master Mark. Something about the inlet air causing them to soot up and lime?


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I don't care for the tankless water heater. Our water temp is too cold in the winter, and they are, in my opinion, overcomplicated to perform a simple task. That is also my ***** with the new Icon gas valve. 

That being said, Bradford White has a great alternative to a tankless, the GX series. 

We have installed 2, so far. The gas piping will most likely be adequate, as well as the chimney.

The GX2 is a 25 gallon tank, and has a delivery rating of 155 gal/1st hr. 
The recovery is 84 gph @ 90 degree rise. 

The GX1 is 55 gal, and is 200 gal/1st hr, 86 gph @ 90.

Thats alot of hot water, and no reduction or limitation in flow rate. Run all the showers you want, at the same time.


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Yah you can't rely on that..... you missed the first instruction that this was a boiler section of the forum:whistling2:


 I agree. I started selling triangle tube products and was required to travel to New Jersey for their dealer service course. Best thing I ever did! Ask your supplier if their are these available to you. It requires some of your extra time, but well worth it. :thumbsup:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Bring back the old RUUD point of use with the huge copper coils, problem solved. 

No electronics, no special venting, instant, continuous hot water and did those coils rot out all those years? No. 

They didn't in this area because the units still operate, today in some older homes over in Cincinnati.

How's that for reliable...


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## SummPlumb (Feb 19, 2010)

Over complicated? Why do I get the feeling that you guys don't like tankless heaters b/c you're too darn stubborn to learn about them?  I was too at first....


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## waldrop (Dec 18, 2009)

SummPlumb said:


> Over complicated? Why do I get the feeling that you guys don't like tankless heaters b/c you're too darn stubborn to learn about them?  I was too at first....


no because the water[well water] here makes you have clean them every 6 months ,HO does not understand that so we tell them to read consumers report ,


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## heeterman1 (Feb 12, 2013)

they all need to be flushed.gas fired builds scale.i charge 350i also check gas pressures and go thru and error codes


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

I have personally installed hundreds of combi boilers, s plan and y plan, look it up if you don't know what the s plan and y plan system is.
Simple to install.
I have had more than a few where the high level stat needs reset straight out the box and have had many where the main board is screwed out the box.
They are over rated and save no real money.
Do a true gas rating on them out the box and they never give what they say.
We had a contract where we was installing 2 a day minimum and did this for a few years 5 days a week and I knew 20 years ago they were not that good.
Cost wise between tank and tankless I would always suggest a tank if its viable.
I'm waiting for the supply house to have on display a power flush system instead of the junk they have now for cleaning them out, a power flush kit would be more suited and would work perfect.


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

I moved this comment to a new thread - not sure how to delete this.


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