# Sloppy soldering?



## DIZ (Nov 17, 2010)

I had a home owner question my ability to solder in a presentable manner. What's in question is the brazing of copper tube for the purpose of carrying NG. He insisted that I got the pipe too hot and it didnt match the nice work he had done on his "home deepthroat" issued shower valves. I tried to explain when his house catches on fire that his gas lines won't melt at the joints releasing fuel to his fire and the temperature differences of silver vs soft. He didnt buy it and asked that I clean up my act. :furious: Where's the "blow me" smilie?:detective:


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

The inspector would set him straight. That's one thing they are good for.


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## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

Man, that's enough to make a guy crazy.... 

Don't you just love how how a homeowner can hear something from an employee at Home Dumpo or Blowes and all of the sudden, he's an expert? I once had a HO tell me, "I don't trust those rubber couplings (mission bands), the head plumbing guy at Home Depot said you can just glue the white pipe into the black pipe"...

I asked, "Did you ask to see _his_ license? Here's mine".......:whistling2:

Oh, just an after thought, they allow copper gas lines inside the structure where you are? Here they have to be steel or CSST.


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## DIZ (Nov 17, 2010)

greenscoutII said:


> Oh, just an after thought, they allow copper gas lines inside the structure where you are? Here they have to be steel or CSST.


THey sure do. I prefer steel, but not everyone is willing to pay the labour. I ended up spray painting them bright yellow yesterday. HO asked. "why yellow"? Now they stick out like a sore thumb! He then proceeds to tell me Home Deepthroat sellls copper coloured paint. Retards EVERYWHERE!:blink:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Diz, show the know-it-all home owner the fuel gas code book where it states that metallic gas pipe shall be, "threaded, flanged, brazed or welded." The work you did meets the code. Your explanation was accurate and true, that should've satisfied him.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

That's when you hand him the torch and brazing rod and say, " show me how to do it."

"And don't forget to wipe it when your done, jackazz."


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## Flyin Brian (Aug 22, 2009)

theres nothing worse than some jerkoff h.o. trying to tell you how to do your job,i had some old retired engineer try and tell me once how to do my job,i had to grit my teeth and clinched my fists,was ready to pop him, he got the picture and went in the other room


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

This is a very angry sounding thread. Of course people are going to question your ability, its part of the job. No reason to get so worked up. 

I have noticed that it is our own lack of communication that often contributes to the problem. While watching many different types of techs deal with people, it become quickly apparent that if they had better communication skills, most of these problems are avoidable. 

People need to feel that you are confident in what you are doing, and some techs just don't act like they have confidence. Then add to that a man that thinks he knows what he is talking about, and you bet your butt he is gonna challenge you. 


Why can't you join white(PVC) pipe and black(ABS) isn't that what all purpose glue is for?


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Flyin Brian said:


> theres nothing worse than some jerkoff h.o. trying to tell you how to do your job,i had some old retired engineer try and tell me once how to do my job,i had to grit my teeth and clinched my fists,was ready to pop him, he got the picture and went in the other room



Let's not forget who is paying the bill. Its his house, and his right to get the work done the way he wants. 

Its your choice to walk away, and not do the job.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

We see very little copper on Natural Gas around here. That, that is installed gets flare connections. As to brazing copper to make a joint. I would be afraid that some jerk would try to un-braze it in the future.


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## DIZ (Nov 17, 2010)

Indie said:


> Let's not forget who is paying the bill. Its his house, and his right to get the work done the way he wants.
> 
> Its your choice to walk away, and not do the job.


 So if he wants gas lines soldered I should do it? Me thinks not. I have also been asked to exclude cleanouts from time to time even when I put them in concealed locations.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Wow. Sounds like an interesting scenario.


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## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

Indie said:


> Why can't you join white(PVC) pipe and black(ABS) isn't that what all purpose glue is for?


Prohibited by code where I live. Probably local amendment, though I'm not sure. Now I'll have to look it up. Dang it.......

Sorry if I came off as pissy toward homeowners. Of course, you are right, ultimately it is they who pay our checks, and I can appreciate a guy being concerned with the quality of work done in his home, but sometimes, no amount of communication helps. 

Some folks are just adversarial by nature.....

Oh, found it!


IRC P3003.2 Prohibited joints.
Running threads and bands shall not be used in the drainage system. Drainage and vent piping shall not be drilled, tapped, burned or welded. The following types of joints and connections shall be prohibited:
1. Cement or concrete.
2. Mastic or hot-pour bituminous joints.
3. Joints made with fittings not approved for the specific installation.
4. Joints between different diameter pipes made with elastomeric rolling O-rings.
*5. Solvent-cement joints between different types of plastic pipe.* 
6. Saddle-type fittings.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

His way as long as it's done by code. Other than that he could go lay down until I'm done.




Indie said:


> Let's not forget who is paying the bill. Its his house, *and his right to get the work done the way he wants. *
> 
> Its your choice to walk away, and not do the job.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

This stuff works good... http://www.kamcoproducts.com/index.asp?content_id=10


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

A house I did in Lakeland, the gas company ran that stuff



Redwood said:


> This stuff works good... http://www.kamcoproducts.com/index.asp?content_id=10


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## Flyin Brian (Aug 22, 2009)

Indie said:


> This is a very angry sounding thread. Of course people are going to question your ability, its part of the job. No reason to get so worked up.
> 
> I have noticed that it is our own lack of communication that often contributes to the problem. While watching many different types of techs deal with people, it become quickly apparent that if they had better communication skills, most of these problems are avoidable.
> 
> ...


your wrong,if a h.o. thinks he knows it all then why did he call me to begin with? i will give you an example, i got a call this past friday night guy has all the water shut off in the building (he attempeted to remove and replace his
frost free wall hydrant) turns out he went to home dumbo and the guy in the plumbing isle told him all he needed to do was "unscrew" the old spicket and screw in the new one,so what does he do? he goes outside and uses a 18" pipewrench to "unscrew" his frost free spickett,twists it off breaks the copper inside finished basement...he calls 20 diff. plumbers and nobody could get there till monday,got ahold of me i go there get the job done etc...point is this guy tells me he went to college for 15 years he is a mechanical engineer
says he did all the plumbing in his basement as well as the walls framing etc.
this guy is a smart edcuated man and he makes a cardinal mistake like 1. listening to this yo yo @ home dumbo and 2. actually comeing home and following his instructions,so i get pissed off every know and then when you get some ahole trying to tell you how do do things when he loused it up from the get go.We are professinoals that is why we are called upon to do the work to begin with,unprofessinoal is the occasinoal AHOLE who questions our ability.


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## Flyin Brian (Aug 22, 2009)

Indie said:


> Let's not forget who is paying the bill. Its his house, and his right to get the work done the way he wants.
> 
> Its your choice to walk away, and not do the job.


 
paying the bill hu? think before you type without knowing all the circumstances involved here,i will gladly send you a pm in full detail so you can get the big picture about what i am talking about.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Brian, I was going to write out a lengthy rebuttal to your post, but then I remembered that its just not worth it. 

You clearly do not get it, and will not, based on what I know of you. Carry, on, I wish you whatever success you can achieve with the skill and personality you have.

As for me and others, we will learn how to deal with customers and make the best of every situation in hopes of achieving a higher level of success.


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## Flyin Brian (Aug 22, 2009)

Indie said:


> Brian, I was going to write out a lengthy rebuttal to your post, but then I remembered that its just not worth it.
> 
> You clearly do not get it, and will not, based on what I know of you. Carry, on, I wish you whatever success you can achieve with the skill and personality you have.
> 
> As for me and others, we will learn how to deal with customers and make the best of every situation in hopes of achieving a higher level of success.


indie,don't tell me that "i don't get it" when i have been around this business alot longer than you have,you got something to say send me a private message.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> We see very little copper on Natural Gas around here. That, that is installed gets flare connections. As to brazing copper to make a joint. I would be afraid that some jerk would try to un-braze it in the future.


Said jerk would get whats coming to him.


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Did a addition on a mans house. Everything we done was not to standard. She would always say her husband could do better. Felt like asking why dont her husband build the addition then?

I hate people like that.


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## DIZ (Nov 17, 2010)

Follow up:

Inspected, passed. Inspector made comments which put hovering HO's mind at ease. I dint say a word, sweet vindication. He never conceded that he had his head up his ass.......I guess he liked the way it smelled!:laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> We see very little copper on Natural Gas around here. That, that is installed gets flare connections. As to brazing copper to make a joint. I would be afraid that some jerk would try to un-braze it in the future.


Most gas codes will not allow a concleded joint to be flared or union.

If you are running copper and the distance is greater than the roll of copper you have no choice some times


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

DIZ ....

You need to develop a little attitude when dealing with customers...

They called you because they can not do it.... once they intervene you have to come out with the attitude.

The faster the better.... and no Indie the customers are never right you just have make them believe they are right.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Indie said:


> Brian, I was going to write out a lengthy rebuttal to your post, but then I remembered that its just not worth it.
> 
> You clearly do not get it, and will not, based on what I know of you. Carry, on, I wish you whatever success you can achieve with the skill and personality you have.
> 
> As for me and others, we will learn how to deal with customers and make the best of every situation in hopes of achieving a higher level of success.


I hate to jump in in a private feud, but Indie, don't try to school anybody when you asked why you can't join ABS and PVC using all purpose glue. WTF. That is a mark of a DIY or a hack.
Now back to your fussin' and feudin'.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

jjbex said:


> I hate to jump in in a private feud, but Indie, don't try to school anybody when you asked why you can't join ABS and PVC using all purpose glue. WTF. That is a mark of a DIY or a hack.
> Now back to your fussin' and feudin'.


Whats wrong with transition glue ?????

We are allowed to use it here. ABS to PVC transtion glue


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> Whats wrong with transition glue ?????
> 
> We are allowed to use it here. ABS to PVC transtion glue


He didn't say transition glue, that's what I use, it's green. The multi-purpose is clear or amber, not approved for joining abs to pvc.


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## dankman (Nov 19, 2009)

Though it's allowed here I won't even consider copper for gas and I can't think of a plumber I know that will, they make CSST for lazy plumbers.


I don't mind a homeowner questioning why I'm doing something but I won't tolerate it when they argue about whether I'm doing a job the right way or if they question my workmanship. When they do I usually remind them that I give a one year warranty on almost all of my work and offer to pull a permit to prove it's done correctly.

About 2 weeks ago I had an issue with a know it all about the installation of a vanity and a toilet; this jerk turned what should have been a 2.5 hour job into a 6 hour job and called to complain about my attitude (not my work) afterwards. I really think I would have been best off turning the job down after my first conversation with the jerk but I looked upon it as just work, I guess it was my bi-yearly reminder for me to trust my instincts a bit better in the future.


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## evilcyrus (Apr 27, 2009)

i had a tentent yesterday *****n at me about taps.. telln me moen is the best and that i should wrip the emco out... i said to em. your a tenet i'm a workr i do what i'm told by the office... he told me both cartridges leak i said i will be the judge of that and i will rebuild the faucet... then i went to tub.shower emco and i replaced both cart/seats and then was told that i should put new valve in.. i said to em i cant u have to take that up with office and deal with them .. next thing yah know kitchen basket leaks outta no where .. fix that this guy started pissen me off.. i loooked at em said any more take it up with office and walked out.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

dankman said:


> Though it's allowed here I won't even consider copper for gas and I can't think of a plumber I know that will, they make CSST for lazy plumbers.
> 
> 
> I don't mind a homeowner questioning why I'm doing something but I won't tolerate it when they argue about whether I'm doing a job the right way or if they question my workmanship. When they do I usually remind them that I give a one year warranty on almost all of my work and offer to pull a permit to prove it's done correctly.
> ...


 Why not copper for gas? You do realise in hospitals what carries your breathing gasses is copper right? Brazed copper joints carry nitrogen, Oxygen and Nitrous oxide for medical gas applications. Brazed copper joints are far superior to black pipe any day.


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## DIZ (Nov 17, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> DIZ ....
> 
> You need to develop a little attitude when dealing with customers...
> 
> ...


I tried to educate him without sounding condescending. I ususally have the ability to convey information in technical or non-tech terms (depends on the demographic of homeowner) In this instance I saw the opportunity for more work down the road, and figured he would be someone who appreciated learning what BcuP was and about the temp diff. of brazing vs soldering etc etc. In hindsight, I think this made him feel like a mental midget and thus the attitude towards my ability. Having said all that, I rarely lose an argument as logic usually prevails, chalk it up as lesson learned :thumbsup:


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## DIZ (Nov 17, 2010)

jjbex said:


> He didn't say transition glue, that's what I use, it's green. The multi-purpose is clear or amber, not approved for joining abs to pvc.


Tranny goo here is white, at least the one I use.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

DIZ said:


> Tranny goo here is white, at least the one I use.


Aw, I don't even want to know why tranny goo is white, but I have an idea!:smartass:


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