# Tough plug and can't push further



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I got a call to unclog a pipe. All 3 set of fixtures. Lav/tub sink, washer(basement) and kitchen sink on the first floor are connected together on 1 1/2 ABS pipe. I highly doubt there's 2 inch underground. Some plumbing was done by handyman and another time by a big plumbing company but I saw it the new portion was probably done by an apprentice that did really crappy work.



I went though the lav/tub behind the trap with my K-45AF 5/16 general innercore with a drop head and bulb. I got up to about 20 feet and couldn't push any further. My cable was binding. No hair or debris at the end on my cable. It felt like possibly a rag plug??? Then the drain worked fine when I filled the lav 3 times. Then on the 4th try it was real slow.

I tried the water ram too and it wasn't better. I spent 2 and a half hours on this...

My question is since I didn't receive my K-3800 sink drum. Should I attempt my k-3800 with a 3/8 IW ridgid cable(Wire core anyway). I have not tried it yet in a pipe that small. I'll need a spring lead because I bet it will never to through a san tee or 90s if there are any. Should I go back and try or let them call someone else?


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## Standard Drain (Feb 17, 2016)

Is it 1 1/2 ABS in the slab? In this situation I would probably try to go in with a 3/8 cable. After that I would use my small jetter.

Good Luck


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Everything is behind walls band the washer is 1 1/2"so it seems everything are connected together on 1 1/2 ABS pipe. I highly doubt there's 2 inch underground. 

Can the 3/8" get stuck?


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Did your drop head come back extra shiny? If so my guess would be a bad alignment where they fernco’d to old metal.

I’m a drum guy, so I don’t know if there’s any difference, but unless a glue trap is involved I run a 3/8 general wire core in 1 1/2” with a clogchopper.

Sounds like a Funyun!


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

The drop head was shiny.

I'm not sure about what you mean "glue trap is involved" I installed a wye after the P-trap and went from there if that's what you are referring to.

I only charged them materials this time. I'm also weary when the woman said It was starting to be expensive. I hate charging when I can't clear a line...


On one hand I'd like to try the 3/8" but on the other hand I'm at home now and don't have to deal with it anymore. I saw a bunch of yahoo plumbing in there. Even the 3" stack leaning 15% the elbows forced sideways to fit. Drill hole in the 3" cleanout for the AC drain. There aren't any vent for the set I was working on and when I was draining the lav the kitchen and washer were gurgling crazy. The dishwasher on the wrong side of the trap...

It's a gamble if I go back I may get more plumbing jobs but from the comments I'm not sure if I'm wasting energy trying to get more work.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I will try the 3/8" on a next job. I decided I won't be going back there, too much hack plumbing and the comment turned me off.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Thanks for the advice!


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Tango said:


> The drop head was shiny.
> 
> I'm not sure about what you mean "glue trap is involved" I installed a wye after the P-trap and went from there if that's what you are referring to.
> 
> ...



I have a hard time charging when I can’t clear a line too. but what I do is remind myself that I’m not responsible for the condition of their plumbing.

Sounds like it’s broken in some way. Shiny cutter, time to try something different. Change the cutter, change the kink... if I can’t get a broken line open in a half hour I clean up, show them the evidence and give them my master’s card.

Glue trap, like a tub trap, not a tubular trap.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again!

Personally, I don't like to be defeated especially in my chosen profession. 

Re-group, go back, and give that drain line hell!.......:vs_mad:

I would opt for a 5/8" cable in my machine for that line. I have {2} temper cables in 5/8". One is stiff and the other is less stiff but somewhat flexible. If the 'softer' 5/8" didn't get the job done, then I'd use the stiff 5/8". 

I wish you the best.

PS: If you are really afraid of getting stuck, then re-think things. But even if the cable were to get stuck, you could then tell customer "now we have to start opening things up since the broken line has got my cable hung up."

Of course, you have to fore-warn your customer of this possibility.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

On my 5/16" I can choose the spade, a mini c-cutter(2 blade prong) and a spring lead. I once tried the c cutter but it would not drop into the tee. After 2 hours I didn't want to spend more time on it.

You are pretty quick if you are able to do it in a half hour. It takes me more than a half hour bringing all the gear in and cutting the trap out and gluing a wye cleanout. Installing the undersink contraption. Around 40 minutes that's when I'm putting my cable in through the wye.

I can't see myself trying to feed the cable from underneath with half the trap removed. Then removing the cable, reinstalling the trap and put water in the sink to see if the line is cleared.

Next time I will tell the customer before I start I'm still charging even if I can't clear the line. That way I will feel less guilty of charging and they'll know what to expect.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Tommy plumber said:


> PS: If you are really afraid of getting stuck, then re-think things. But even if the cable were to get stuck, you could then tell customer "now we have to start opening things up since the broken line has got my cable hung up."
> 
> Of course, you have to fore-warn your customer of this possibility.



I agree on the fore-warn. In this case I believe they are a little cheap and I may have problems on being paid if I have to dig. I prefer losing this customer than having a huge headache saying to myself I should of listened to my gut.

I have explained this once, if I get stuck I have to personally pay for everything from my pockets, excavation, new pipe, new basement floors etc. I don't want to test my home made waiver in court.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

You said three fixtures were affected but only tried to clear it through one of them. I would of given it a go through one or both of the other fixtures before I left. 

I typically don’t charge if I can’t clear it, I’ll charge to camera it and repair the line.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Debo22 said:


> You said three fixtures were affected but only tried to clear it through one of them. I would of given it a go through one or both of the other fixtures before I left.
> 
> I typically don’t charge if I can’t clear it, I’ll charge to camera it and repair the line.


The blockage was under the slab and I went with the lav/tub. Going through the washer would of been a nightmare trying to hold the K-45 over the laundry machine and through the trap. I sometimes go with the kitchen in some cases but I didn't try on this one.

Also let's say I spend 4 hours trying various things I have a gut feeling that they are not going to pay the full amount. I thought it better to ask on the forum for advice and cut my losses.

Lastly I don't own a camera, and I will never have enough uses to pay it back.


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## JohnnieSqueeze (Mar 23, 2016)

OpenSights said:


> I have a hard time charging when I can’t clear a line too. but what I do is remind myself that I’m not responsible for the condition of their plumbing.
> 
> Sounds like it’s broken in some way. Shiny cutter, time to try something different. Change the cutter, change the kink... if I can’t get a broken line open in a half hour I clean up, show them the evidence and give them my master’s card.
> 
> Glue trap, like a tub trap, not a tubular trap.




not a bag trap ?
lol lol lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rooterboy (Jul 16, 2009)

*Walk away*

i have had difficult stoppages that I could not clear and I walked away without charging. On the other hand I have got to jobs that others could not clear and cleared the drain. It goes with the territory in my opinion. You can not clear all of the drains, trust your gut if the owner seems like they will not pay, walk away. David


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## MMassey338 (Apr 2, 2018)

Tango said:


> On my 5/16" I can choose the spade, a mini c-cutter(2 blade prong) and a spring lead. I once tried the c cutter but it would not drop into the tee. After 2 hours I didn't want to spend more time on it.
> 
> You are pretty quick if you are able to do it in a half hour. It takes me more than a half hour bringing all the gear in and cutting the trap out and gluing a wye cleanout. Installing the undersink contraption. Around 40 minutes that's when I'm putting my cable in through the wye.
> 
> ...


Don’t think of it as “can’t clear the line”, think of it as haven’t yet cleared the line, and time to try plan b. Or c. Just know that plan z is dynamite. 
Never give up, and call me if you ever get to plan z. I want to watch.


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## fixitright (Jan 5, 2012)

Camera saved me again today.

I can't tell you how good it feels to see what the problem is with a camera.

Couldn't do my job without them.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

You know the saying "Only a fool never changes his mind." 

Well I should of been a fool....and should of stayed home.

I decided to call them back to try again with the k-3800 with the 3/8 cable. I tried with a spring lead, nope. I tried with a just a kink, nope. Then I tried with a down head bulb, It made the first bend, couldn't make it a little more. I tried to finesse it forward and reverse, nope. I pull the cable back and the drop head is gone, only the clip part is still attached! The freaking head is brand new, never used before! :vs_mad:

I'm really pissed now and saying to myself I had a gut feeling something was going to go wrong. Now I'm in it. I tell them I got to remove the laundry tub and open the wall cut the pipe to retrieve the darn thing.



I remove the whole shebang open the wall and guess what it's not a san tee but a vent 90. I open another section of wall, another vent 90. I then see a flat tee going for the sink upstairs, 

It would of been impossible to snake from the kitchen with more vent 90's going to it. I go back to see them and I said whoever did the plumbing reno is a real hack. Not even an apprentice would do so much crap. Then again plumbers don't need to go to plumbing school to do reno's and service! Only the owner of the business needs a licence. The pex lines were scraping against steels studs. Also you were damn lucky your pipes didn't freeze in the exterior walls.



I cut the drain pipe further down, I had to cut off and scrap a magnet flexible head with a dell flashslight. I taped the flex magnet to a hose and retrieved the head. Hopefully I can fix the drop head by replacing with a spring pin. I was so disgusted I just threw it in the bit box for later.


They said they'll think about it. I gave them a ballpark to fix that portion and unclog when I have direct access. I still gave away half my time getting the head back. Luckily it didn't end up underground. They told me to leave the sink aside and I capped the line.


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## Standard Drain (Feb 17, 2016)

^^^^I was just thinking this. Why dont you send a camera down and at the very least (if you cant see anything) locate the spot of the blockage. This may give you more insight at to what the problem is.

Worst case from there you know where the next spot is that needs to be opened up.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Standard Drain said:


> ^^^^I was just thinking this. Why dont you send a camera down and at the very least (if you cant see anything) locate the spot of the blockage. This may give you more insight at to what the problem is.
> 
> Worst case from there you know where the next spot is that needs to be opened up.



I wish I had a camera but...
10 to 15 grand for a good micro camera is out of the question(Or what ever the high cost), remember people are freaking cheap here. It would take 300 years to pay it off. 

Anyway can your camera go through several 1 1/2 vent 90s?


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I'm going to cool off by watching Lee's SNAFU's :gun_bandana::gun_bandana:


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## fixitright (Jan 5, 2012)

Tango said:


> I wish I had a camera but...
> 10 to 15 grand for a good micro camera is out of the question(Or what ever the high cost), remember people are freaking cheap here. It would take 300 years to pay it off.
> 
> Anyway can your camera go through several 1 1/2 vent 90s?



French Canadians have a well deserved reputation for being, shall we say, extremely Frugal. :wink::wink:


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

fixitright said:


> French Canadians have a well deserved reputation for being, shall we say, extremely Frugal. :wink::wink:



You are absolutely right! Seriously without exaggerating 85% of the older homes I visit and where the plumbing has been worked on has been butchered.

I wonder is it because we know we pay a lot more for everything compared to you guys in the US so we try to save where we can?

It is a fact in general we pay between 50 to 85% more than down south. Food for thought.

I'm probably no different if you visit the tool thread, a toilet jam bar that you'd pay 15$ my price was over 200$. That's why I made my own. I since then bought a real one a month ago for 50$!!!! and mine works better with real saws all teeth.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Tango said:


> You are absolutely right! Seriously without exaggerating 85% of the older homes I visit and where the plumbing has been worked on has been butchered.
> 
> I wonder is it because we know we pay a lot more for everything compared to you guys in the US so we try to save where we can?
> 
> ...


You’ve gotta be ****ting me! $200! I have one, but usually use a sawzall. Never leaves a mark.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

OpenSights said:


> You’ve gotta be ****ting me! $200! I have one, but usually use a sawzall. Never leaves a mark.


Nope I'm not exaggerating when it was over 200$, it was sold by jam bar itself. Right now I checked this is their price : CDN$ 53.06


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Tango said:


> You are absolutely right! Seriously without exaggerating 85% of the older homes I visit and where the plumbing has been worked on has been butchered.
> 
> I wonder is it because we know we pay a lot more for everything compared to you guys in the US so we try to save where we can?
> 
> ...


At least you have “free” healthcare


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Debo22 said:


> At least you have “free” healthcare



Yes we have at least that! Our health care system is not perfect but for the most part yes. It is one of the reason we pay more everyone contributes to it. The other thing which is sad is the wait time for medical treatment. Spend 
a minimum of 8 to 36 hours waiting in the emergency room to see a doctor. For special treatment, months and years before your first consultation. Some people travel to cuba for faster service.

A good example I've been on the waiting list for 8 years to have a family doctor and only because the government just recently ordered doctors to accept new patients if not they'ed be in trouble. When I got my first visit it was a brand new doctor and I was her second official visit. Good thing too because they caught something before it was too late. 


Ambulance are privately owned (not free)
Dentist (not free)
Cancer treatment (I believe there are costs but not 100% sure)
The tv in the room (not free)
Single room (not free)
parking at the hospital (not free)
Medication partially funded by the province or private insurance


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## CaptainBob (Jan 3, 2011)

Pretty much what I've heard from others about Canadian healthcare.

There is a saying that what you get is worth the price you pay for it.


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## fixitright (Jan 5, 2012)

Tango said:


> Yes we have at least that! Our health care system is not perfect but for the most part yes.
> 
> 
> My Pet peeve is our health care system in the USA. It's a good one if you have good insurance or any insurance at all.
> ...


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Don’t get me going on insurance!

Mainstream anything in the US holds the Canadian health care system as the bees knees. Efficient, cost saving, better healthcare.... I’ve heard rumors that’s not true, now I know from a Frog’s mouth! LOL 

I’m glad Trump got rid of the fine. Have a personal story... Berry’s “fine” for no health insurance was not enforced. A few years ago my wife was between jobs and filed for Obama care for herself and my son. (I have the VA) My 6 year old son, at the time, was covered, but because we couldn’t show what his income income was my wife was ineligible for medical benefits. Three different caseworkers and never a call back unless she was transferred to the next caseworker. 

I don’t like Trump, but I hope he ****s with the insurance industry hardcore!


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Btw, got my bill from civilian urgent care. I gave them my VA card. Total came to $214 and change. According to the bill I had a $200+ discount on the X-ray, dropped it down to $72. 

Not sure if the VA paid, hope not. 

I use to use the VA when I had private insurance because when I went there they would charge my private insurance company to add money to help other vets. 

Now, if I need a doctor I pay the bill. There are many more veterans that need care before me. 

This fdup knee of mine is originally service related. I didn’t report it when it happened, but documented.

I don’t use the VA because there are far more vets that need care more than me.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Funny how a thread started as drain cleaning and abruptly turning into health care. Tommy If you can move this portion and title it "Health Care Discussion"

Anyway, don't get me wrong I'm all for everyone paying taxes to support "mostly free" hospital and clinics. Take me as an example If I have an accident while working as my own boss I would have an ambulance bill of 1200$ but free treatment at the hospital for whatever treatment and all treatments there after.

I would have to pay a portion of the medicine I need to buy at the pharmacy. I would have to pay a portion of medical equipment for home use.


Then if I can't work for a while, I'm on my own with footing the bill with living expenses as I can't afford insurance right now (I heard it starts at 600$/month but can't confirm) I once had extra insurance(with my mortgage) if I couldn't work the mortgage would get paid. When I applied for it when I had surgery they obviously didn't pay. I told them to F off and stopped paying.


What would happen if the poorer and self employed like me couldn't afford a hospital bill? The overall condition of the population and cities would suffer a lot. I wouldn't be able to work anymore and eventually live on the streets? An excellent recipe for crime.


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## fixitright (Jan 5, 2012)

I've read more than once that the biggest reason for bankruptcy is medical bills.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

I really didn’t want to work last night, but I had a main line at an apartment Building. Opened at the cast to clay connection about 12’ out. Couldn’t get past 30’ no matter what. Wipes.

Told the PMC if it backs up again they need to have me use my k1500 and video.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

The original customer for this thread didn't call me back...

New customer this morning :

I tried my new sink drum(smaller than the original) this morning and I'm not sure if I set it wrong but I heard the cable spin a couple times inside the drum. The cable was not pulling out. I had about 6 feet into the line. I brought the drum outside removed the red plastic and pulled half of the cable out. Put it back in and went for a second try and same thing I heard the cable do the same thing and couldn't pull it out. I have to pull the cable again and check why it's getting jammed.

I went with my K-45 I tried my regular 25' with bulb but I think it went up the vent stack. Then I used the 50' with drop head bulb and got up to around 12 feet and couldn't go any further. It's starting to piss me off all the trouble I'm having lately. I tried several time and couldn't go further.

I told her to call another plumber or I'd have to cut the ceiling and walls in the basement to see where the drain leads. It's not normal and I bet the problem are vent 90s. She'll talk to her husband and she said it was very slow for the last 6 months. the p-trap arm was thick with hard crud. I'm waiting what they want to do. I charged only one hour but I spent 2 and a half there.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

You may have wound the cable backwards in the drum. Run it in reverse and see if the pulls out normal. If it does you need to pull all the cable out and feed it back in the opposite way.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I tied the cable anchor with the direction of the guide. I just took it out of the van and guess what it spools in and out freely. We'll see next time how it goes.

One thing I noticed it is hard to sit on a bucket beside it. There's not a lot of room between the cabinet doors for me and the machine. Also with the k-45 I can go very slowly, with the k-3800 it spins real fast from the start, you can't really finesse an elbow.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Tango said:


> I tied the cable anchor with the direction of the guide. I just took it out of the van and guess what it spools in and out freely. We'll see next time how it goes.


Did you have the machine running when you tested it out of the van?

You should try running it in your own drains to work out the bugs so you’re not trying to figure stuff out with a customer watching over you.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I had just the drum out and pulled it out. At the customer I only got 6 feet when it jammed. It jammed a second time at the same spot.

I'll try monday on dry fit pipe in the yard. I think the cable binds and slips inside the drum when there is a tension. I also think in the k-45 the cable is tightly confined in a small drum where it has no where to go and slip. The sink drum is huge compared to it. The cable may have too much room to bind?


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Tango said:


> One thing I noticed it is hard to sit on a bucket beside it. There's not a lot of room between the cabinet doors for me and the machine.


A lot of cabinet doors have quick release hinges. I pull the doors off as much as possible.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Debo22 said:


> A lot of cabinet doors have quick release hinges. I pull the doors off as much as possible.


Ours are more the screwed in type. It's only in recent years that is see those hinges. However I haven't even checked them so I'll be checking them out.

The next time I have a sink I'll be using a drop head attachment plus a spring lead.


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## Dpeckplb (Sep 20, 2013)

Don't feel bad. I had one today that I'm positive I hit a blockage that cost me a 100' 5/8 Ridgid cable with 30 uses on. I had a company I work with come camera the drain the asbestos cement pipe became misaligned under the driveway and my c cutter got stuck. while working the cable back and forth it flipped over and kinked in the drum. so the cable has a kink at 5' and probably 50'. Anyone know how to get kinks out? If not I'll just have to cut 50' off and weld a repair end on and it'll be a short cable.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

There's a few posts on unkinking a cable buried in this forum. I use google to search this site though.


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## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

So I wanted to talk about the k3800 I've snake probably close to or over 5000 drains with this particular machine the small drum I see in your pick tango perfect for bath tubs and and basin sinks..

For 1 1/2" and larger the bigger drum with 3/8" cable it has a bit of a bulb and 5/8" end on it for using same heads the k50 uses.. I usually never use a drop head unless drain is back to back I usually bend the end of the cable on a 45ish the facilitate going through bends or ts easier.

You will get a feel for whether or not your going up or down if cable pulls itself in your going down if cable pushes itself out of drain your going up...

Truthfully I dont even use an end on my cable it breaks off eventually but at that point the cable is nice and soft and goes around bends nice an easy. It does however make it harder to go through hard galvanized pipe when its soft I always keep a spare cable in truck in case the old cable isn't strong enough..

Your cables with this machine do bind up now and then and usually if you put machine in reverse and grab the red plastic part of drum ot usually frees it up.. I find this machine th cable comes out a lot easier in reverse than forward on this machine.


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## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

As long as cables are not so kinked that its un usable then the kink helps clean the drain better. Sometimes you can grab cable and bend it opposite way of kind to kind of straighten it out to make it lesser of a kink to try and make it useable

If.its too kinky it gets hard to use and when you hit that hard spot it'll buckle your cable ever time eventually you will have to chuck it.and get a new one... kinky cables will also where the guides down on drum machine and jaws on secectiinal machines quicker


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Venomthirst said:


> Your cables with this machine do bind up now and then and usually if you put machine in reverse and grab the red plastic part of drum ot usually frees it up.. I find this machine th cable comes out a lot easier in reverse than forward on this machine.



I've had issues with the small drum every time. Even 2 ridgid technicians I spoke to have no idea what to do. The cable binds inside every single time and I get angry fighting it and I can't pull it out. I've had more success in reverse but it still it still tangles up and I got to pull it back and out a dozen times before I can restart. A few moments after that it snafu again.


I can't kink my cables, they spring back to their shape so I use a general spring lead. It's wonderful!


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## canuck92 (Apr 1, 2016)

I love when its -30 out in febuary and i pull my cable back an its got ice chips all over it. Then i know im in for a long day, thats when i tell the customer to put the kettle on.


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