# Staying calm



## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Trying calm can be a challenge when you have 10 maintenance men and a bunch of hospital staff that have never been through a oxygen shutdown. Lol they even got me nerved up and the thing is planed to the minute. Been doing this for over thirty years and its still like the first time some times.


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## finkous (Dec 9, 2011)

ok, so whats involved in an oxygen shut down? can you elaborate? I've never worked with oxygen and know very little in the plumbing practises with it.... I'm a curious guy and always looking for more knowledge


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

We did a water shutdown at a hospital on nights a while ago. Emails and memos were sent out. A nurse supervisor didn't get it. She had a patient on dialysis in the affected bed tower. We shut the waster down, and were still draining it when we got a frantic call. Thank God we hadn't cut the line apart! We closed all the drain valves and turned the water back on. The patient would have died! I still get the schpilkies thinking about it.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## curtis2kul (Sep 14, 2008)

I always get stressed during any shutdown. All it takes is one thing to throw the whole thing off.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

finkous said:


> ok, so whats involved in an oxygen shut down? can you elaborate? I've never worked with oxygen and know very little in the plumbing practises with it.... I'm a curious guy and always looking for more knowledge


 Ok this is a proses where you shut off all of the oxygen to the whole hospital cut the line purge and silver solder your work into the service. The only thing is everybody is on bottles with a time line. Some areas were back fed with cryogenic tanks but you still are working on a time line. After your work is done the verifier has to test all effected areas for purity and particulate matter. The thing that always bugs me is they will never give you a time it will take them to do there work. So you need to know the proses very well before you ever plan one of these events.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

422 plumber said:


> We did a water shutdown at a hospital on nights a while ago. Emails and memos were sent out. A nurse supervisor didn't get it. She had a patient on dialysis in the affected bed tower. We shut the waster down, and were still draining it when we got a frantic call. Thank God we hadn't cut the line apart! We closed all the drain valves and turned the water back on. The patient would have died! I still get the schpilkies thinking about it. Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


 Been there shut one down and they had a emergency surgery pop up just as I was cutting the 4 in line


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

curtis2kul said:


> I always get stressed during any shutdown. All it takes is one thing to throw the whole thing off.


 I think you always will if your smart. Never have I not been nerved up but you have to stay calm because people around you have never had to deal with some of this and will plumb freak out I have seen it first hand.lol


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

That is some heavy liability with medical gas. One of the reasons why it's so pricey.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Tommy plumber said:


> That is some heavy liability with medical gas. One of the reasons why it's so pricey.


 yes indeed the shutting of a area is tuff but you shut it all down you better have it together. And cost is not a factor for something like this they just want you to do it and make the problem go away.


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## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

Wow. I wouldn't have the stomach for it. On average whats something like that coast hourly? $200-$300


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

vinpadalino said:


> Wow. I wouldn't have the stomach for it. On average whats something like that coast hourly? $200-$300


 depends what kind of shut down it is back fed zones cost more. If you can just bottle a few beds and have a surgery room bottled up that's a lot more cost effective. There is outfits that set up back feeds and do all of the re certification they won't even talk about it for less than 4000.00 and that is just the setup for the back feed the verifier is somewhere around 500.00 per hour. That is above the 4000.00 . This little alarm system upgrade will go above 50,000.00 with alarms wire and med gas work. Funny thing is other than pulling the wire and a couple days prep it was all done in one night.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Yeah, no joke.

I was on a crew helping the med gas guy and the hospital chief said to "cut out a 90 for inspection". My med gas guy cuts out a old 90 and gives it to me to deliver.

Turns out the hospital chief wanted to inspect one of the new 90 we did, not one that was installed years before.

My ears are still ringing. Mind ya, back then there were lots of Nam vets--like the hospital chief and my supervisor--and they didn't know much about sensitive feelings....


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## curtis2kul (Sep 14, 2008)

I've got to make 8 tie ins this Wednesday night. 6 vacuum, 1 nitrogen, and 1 carbon dioxide. Its already on my mind pretty bad. We always have are verifier check for purity before we cut into any line. This will make sure the line is clean. I always triple check everything. Everybody gives me a hard time about it but it's pretty amazing how quick fingers start pointing when something goes south.


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## JWBII (Dec 23, 2012)

These are just one of the reasons I have no interest in a med gas endorsement lol


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

curtis2kul said:


> I've got to make 8 tie ins this Wednesday night. 6 vacuum, 1 nitrogen, and 1 carbon dioxide. Its already on my mind pretty bad. We always have are verifier check for purity before we cut into any line. This will make sure the line is clean. I always triple check everything. Everybody gives me a hard time about it but it's pretty amazing how quick fingers start pointing when something goes south.


 why would you have him test for purity before the system is compromised? Isn't it in service? Haven't people been breathing the gas?


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## curtis2kul (Sep 14, 2008)

wyrickmech said:


> why would you have him test for purity before the system is compromised? Isn't it in service? Haven't people been breathing the gas?


We do this to make sure the line is clean before we touch it. If it is doesnt pass the test we do not cut into it. Just another precaution.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

curtis2kul said:


> We do this to make sure the line is clean before we touch it. If it is doesnt pass the test we do not cut into it. Just another precaution.


if it doesn't pass a annual test which it should be tested for every year. They would be required to replace the effected line from the source to the outlets. I have never seen one that bad everything we do is very tight protocol not even a cap for test gets soldered without a purge and a oxygen analizer


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## Ptturner91 (Oct 13, 2012)

curtis2kul said:


> I've got to make 8 tie ins this Wednesday night. 6 vacuum, 1 nitrogen, and 1 carbon dioxide. Its already on my mind pretty bad. We always have are verifier check for purity before we cut into any line. This will make sure the line is clean. I always triple check everything. Everybody gives me a hard time about it but it's pretty amazing how quick fingers start pointing when something goes south.


I heard propress has fittings now approved for medical gasses I'm sure that would cut down on a lot of time


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

I had one bad experience with a hospital shutdown. The amazing thing was how well the staff reacted. Turned out it wasn't their first mishap and they knew the drill pretty well. What pissed me off is the higher ups were aware of the flaws in their procedures and hadn't corrected them. I felt like I'd walked into a trap. Vowed right then and there never to assume someone else's systems were full proof. I still get worked up when thinking about it after 15, or is it 20 years.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Plumbus said:


> I had one bad experience with a hospital shutdown. The amazing thing was how well the staff reacted. Turned out it wasn't their first mishap and they knew the drill pretty well. What pissed me off is the higher ups were aware of the flaws in their procedures and hadn't corrected them. I felt like I'd walked into a trap. Vowed right then and there never to assume someone else's systems were full proof. I still get worked up when thinking about it after 15, or is it 20 years.


never let the hospital or staff take the lead on shutdowns. It's your baby if there is a flaw it could come back in your lap. Have been right were you are talking about. Let maintenance take the lead one time and all hell broke loose until I took control.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Ptturner91 said:


> I heard propress has fittings now approved for medical gasses I'm sure that would cut down on a lot of time


 there is three levels of med gas rules I seriously doubt that pro press would ever be allowed for pressurized gasses. But if you have a link I would love to read about it.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Here's a very informative Med gas site from Canada
http://www.plumbinghelp.ca/medical_gas_pipe.php


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Plumbus said:


> Here's a very informative Med gas site from Canada http://www.plumbinghelp.ca/medical_gas_pipe.php


interesting read we do not allow soft copper here anywhere and all brass to copper connections are threaded unless it is done by manufacture before cleaning like a purge port or silver solder joints on explosion proof valves. Thanks for the link though.


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## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> there is three levels of med gas rules I seriously doubt that pro press would ever be allowed for pressurized gasses. But if you have a link I would love to read about it.


They're allowed now, I don't have my book with me to get the spec number but I'll try and remember to grab it tomorrow.


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## Ptturner91 (Oct 13, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> there is three levels of med gas rules I seriously doubt that pro press would ever be allowed for pressurized gasses. But if you have a link I would love to read about it.


Yes I got a booklet from them when I met the sales rep at my supplier


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Ptturner91 said:


> Yes I got a booklet from them when I met the sales rep at my supplier


 does it give a NFPA reference. If not it isn't ok for use check for reference


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

steflynn said:


> The codes are different in Canada. There is a great U.S. resource at http://medicalgasforum.com


if they are different what do they go by?


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

steflynn said:


> The codes are different in Canada. There is a great U.S. resource at http://medicalgasforum.com


How about an intro. We fight tooth and nail for those things!!


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Letterrip said:


> How about an intro. We fight tooth and nail for those things!!


 am I reading this right that they are a receptionist? How the hell does that fly? I have been putting med gas in longer than I like to admit, I was trained by the chairman of the board that wrote the nfpa I do believe it was the 2001. Now I have somebody telling me that pro press is ok for med oxygen, I don't think so. If it is true then bring the proof to the table. There is a memory fitting that uses a hydraulic ram with a sleeve and collar that is approved but I cannot find anywhere that anybody has approved pro press. Also the sight that was mentioned showed the vacuum soft soldered. That is wrong also showed branches at the same height as the trunk that's wrong.


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## Ptturner91 (Oct 13, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> am I reading this right that they are a receptionist? How the hell does that fly? I have been putting med gas in longer than I like to admit, I was trained by the chairman of the board that wrote the nfpa I do believe it was the 2001. Now I have somebody telling me that pro press is ok for med oxygen, I don't think so. If it is true then bring the proof to the table. There is a memory fitting that uses a hydraulic ram with a sleeve and collar that is approved but I cannot find anywhere that anybody has approved pro press. Also the sight that was mentioned showed the vacuum soft soldered. That is wrong also showed branches at the same height as the trunk that's wrong.


I looked in the booklet I was givin
I read it wrong it's approved for all gases even natural gas, but not for oxygen for medical purposes but you can use it for non medical purposes


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Ptturner91 said:


> I looked in the booklet I was givin I read it wrong it's approved for all gases even natural gas, but not for oxygen for medical purposes but you can use it for non medical purposes


there is a big difference there. I have seen the system for steel and gas for copper. Around here we don't run natural gas threw copper or galvanized because of the copper oxidizing and the galvanized flakes. But thank you for looking it up.


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## Ptturner91 (Oct 13, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> there is a big difference there. I have seen the system for steel and gas for copper. Around here we don't run natural gas threw copper or galvanized because of the copper oxidizing and the galvanized flakes. But thank you for looking it up.


Thanks for challenging me I was going around thinking why do these idiots braze when you can just use propress haha


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Ptturner91 said:


> Thanks for challenging me I was going around thinking why do these idiots braze when you can just use propress haha


 your welcome it is kinda specialized trade and there is a lot of different rules but I find it quite satisfying. I like that the NFPA regulates it and it has extremely clear codes.i had a electrician tell me he did not agree about a med gas alarm panel once. I ask him why and he said that he did not interpret it the way I did. I told him there was no need to interpret it the meaning was clear read it word for word. He lost. I also enjoy the fact you need a verifier this takes the monkey off your back as long as you do your job he will back you up. Anytime you challenge your knowledge you get smarter even when you are wrong. Which I have been more than I am right.lol


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## Ptturner91 (Oct 13, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> your welcome it is kinda specialized trade and there is a lot of different rules but I find it quite satisfying. I like that the NFPA regulates it and it has extremely clear codes.i had a electrician tell me he did not agree about a med gas alarm panel once. I ask him why and he said that he did not interpret it the way I did. I told him there was no need to interpret it the meaning was clear read it word for word. He lost. I also enjoy the fact you need a verifier this takes the monkey off your back as long as you do your job he will back you up. Anytime you challenge your knowledge you get smarter even when you are wrong. Which I have been more than I am right.lol


So is all you do medical gasses? How did you get into that?


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Ptturner91 said:


> So is all you do medical gasses? How did you get into that?


its not all I do it's just the most profitable I started as a helper on hospital jobs for a company that done the whole mechanical ductwork boilers plumbing and med gas so I payed attention and slowly but surely I made my way up the ladder to the med gas guy.


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## Ptturner91 (Oct 13, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> its not all I do it's just the most profitable I started as a helper on hospital jobs for a company that done the whole mechanical ductwork boilers plumbing and med gas so I payed attention and slowly but surely I made my way up the ladder to the med gas guy.


Oh that's awesome 
Is it a special license ?


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## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

I did do a high school a couple years ago and we used pro press on all the gases for the auto shop and welding shop. Argon, Oxygen and nitrogen. I hated the idea at the time but had to do it. No problems that I know of yet.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

wyrickmech said:


> am I reading this right that they are a receptionist? How the hell does that fly? I have been putting med gas in longer than I like to admit, I was trained by the chairman of the board that wrote the nfpa I do believe it was the 2001. Now I have somebody telling me that pro press is ok for med oxygen, I don't think so. If it is true then bring the proof to the table. There is a memory fitting that uses a hydraulic ram with a sleeve and collar that is approved but I cannot find anywhere that anybody has approved pro press. Also the sight that was mentioned showed the vacuum soft soldered. That is wrong also showed branches at the same height as the trunk that's wrong.


yes any branch-offs have to be turned up off the main,then you can run that flat to the point of connection,and vaccum must be silver soldered also,i have ran miles of that stuff when I worked for the bigger companies and I would like to get recertified just to do med gas in small settings like a dentist office.that is a name your price field right there.also up until about 10yrs ago med gas was no big deal,all you had to do to get certified was braze up some fittings and send them in and you were certified,now its a whole other ballgame,and its a really big hassle just to get certified and to stay certified,you have to take a really long sit down written test and then go braze up your coupons,then they send them off to be x-rayed and you will not pass it if it isn't just right,somebody somewhere down the line saw how much more money could be made from all the certifications and stuff and now its all about money like everything else.most older hospitals have regular soldered oxygen and all med gas lines ran in them and it hasn't hurt anyone yet.those days are long gone now tho.also you are allowed one braze joint in the system that DOES NOT have to be purged,and it may be two joints now,i cant recall but I always tried to purge any brazed joints that I did myself.


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## Ptturner91 (Oct 13, 2012)

sparky said:


> yes any branch-offs have to be turned up off the main,then you can run that flat to the point of connection,and vaccum must be silver soldered also,i have ran miles of that stuff when I worked for the bigger companies and I would like to get recertified just to do med gas in small settings like a dentist office.that is a name your price field right there.also up until about 10yrs ago med gas was no big deal,all you had to do to get certified was braze up some fittings and send them in and you were certified,now its a whole other ballgame,and its a really big hassle just to get certified and to stay certified,you have to take a really long sit down written test and then go braze up your coupons,then they send them off to be x-rayed and you will not pass it if it isn't just right,somebody somewhere down the line saw how much more money could be made from all the certifications and stuff and now its all about money like everything else.most older hospitals have regular soldered oxygen and all med gas lines ran in them and it hasn't hurt anyone yet.those days are long gone now tho.also you are allowed one braze joint in the system that DOES NOT have to be purged,and it may be two joints now,i cant recall but I always tried to purge any brazed joints that I did myself.


It's just like the certification for welding on natural gas here


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Ptturner91 said:


> It's just like the certification for welding on natural gas here


I used to be certified under the old way,braze fittings and send them off but I had to get recertified a few months back and I passed the written part of the test but did not pass the brazing part,one of the x-rays showed a dam crack in it.made me so mad,i never did retake it again.i no longer work for that company now anyways.


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## Ptturner91 (Oct 13, 2012)

sparky said:


> I used to be certified under the old way,braze fittings and send them off but I had to get recertified a few months back and I passed the written part of the test but did not pass the brazing part,one of the x-rays showed a dam crack in it.made me so mad,i never did retake it again.i no longer work for that company now anyways.


Oh that sucks but least you have experience in it


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## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

Rando said:


> They're allowed now, I don't have my book with me to get the spec number but I'll try and remember to grab it tomorrow.


 

Wow I was wrong on that one. Must have been confused with the axially swaged or memory metal fittings.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Ptturner91 said:


> Oh that sucks but least you have experience in it


yea it did suck big time,i gave up a sat and sunday to take the written,and I thought sure the brazing was the easiest part but I was wrong,but I can go and retake just the brazing the next time they are giving the test in an area close to me and im thinkin about paying the 500.00 bucks and try again to get certified to do dentist offices and small systems.i really like running medical gas systems,rather fun I think.at least it was before they changed everything


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

sparky said:


> I used to be certified under the old way,braze fittings and send them off but I had to get recertified a few months back and I passed the written part of the test but did not pass the brazing part,one of the x-rays showed a dam crack in it.made me so mad,i never did retake it again.i no longer work for that company now anyways.


what percentage silver solder did you use? The last I checked they did not x ray but cut a coupon out and bent it if it cracked you fail. 5% has better flow and fill characteristics you will have better luck with the test.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

wyrickmech said:


> what percentage silver solder did you use? The last I checked they did not x ray but cut a coupon out and bent it if it cracked you fail. 5% has better flow and fill characteristics you will have better luck with the test.


thanks,yes the 5% is what we used,thing is,i have been brazing for yrs,good at it,we think that since there was 12 of us taking the class,the instructor said at the start,now I promise you all that not all of you will pass this test,and lo and behold 4 of us didn't pass it,last names were 2 beginning with letter b,one in the middle with the letter m,and me with the last name starting with a w.we think that they don't want everybody to pass it that way they can get more money to retake the test,who knows,might have been bad joints,but one of the guys is a certified welder and been brazing for yrs like myself.really aggravating to say the least


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

sparky said:


> thanks,yes the 5% is what we used,thing is,i have been brazing for yrs,good at it,we think that since there was 12 of us taking the class,the instructor said at the start,now I promise you all that not all of you will pass this test,and lo and behold 4 of us didn't pass it,last names were 2 beginning with letter b,one in the middle with the letter m,and me with the last name starting with a w.we think that they don't want everybody to pass it that way they can get more money to retake the test,who knows,might have been bad joints,but one of the guys is a certified welder and been brazing for yrs like myself.really aggravating to say the least


 yes it is a hard test I too am a certified welder and the 6 g test was easier than the braise test. I found the vertical up the one I didn't like the trick I was taught was to heat small sections evenly and as hot as you can without melting it. If you can't see the silver solder shadow in the red hot fitting.


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