# Winery questions



## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

So I'm about a month out on starting a new winery production building, it will be my first. I have a couple of questions

1. Owner has stated to me that amount of hot water is critical, he claims he could use upwards of 500-700 gallons of hot water a day cleaning out his wine barrels. The water source is a well and has been tested and approved for a 35 occupant building. There is propane on site. The hot water will be distributed to 8 T&s brass wash down stations, basically a hot/cold hose bib. The question is the best way to heat the water? Would this require a series of tankless water heater? A large commercial grade high recovery tank heater? 

2. Owner also stresses he doesnt have enough water pressure in his current building on site. I'm not savvy when it comes to booster pumps, especially when it involves a well. Right now there's approx 50 psi with no booster pump. Can you put a pump on after the well pump tank? Would it run the well dry? 

The basic question is how do we achieve maximum hot water and maximum pressure within reason. Possible numbers may be 600 gallons of hot water and 75-80 psi. To me If this was a residential application where 100 gallons at 75 psi was required on city water I wouldn't be here asking these questions. But the well and the high amount of hot water is throwing me off. Thanks for your feed back


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Odds are you'll need a break tank.


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## Plumberdood1 (Apr 23, 2014)

Bradford White EFU series.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

HTP PH-199 has a first hour rating of 335 gallons of water, should be more than enough.
I don't deal with a lot of wells, but it sounds like he needs a bigger pump.


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

bct p&h said:


> HTP PH-199 has a first hour rating of 335 gallons of water, should be more than enough. I don't deal with a lot of wells, but it sounds like he needs a bigger pump.


Why a bigger pump wouldn't you want more filtered storage? I'm Not a well guy either.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

bct p&h said:


> HTP PH-199 has a first hour rating of 335 gallons of water, should be more than enough.
> I don't deal with a lot of wells, but it sounds like he needs a bigger pump.


What BCT stated plus a 100 gallon storage tank with a recirc system and you will be good on the hot water. if you need a booster pump then get with a local rep and they will recommend a setup for you based off of your needs.


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## Qplumb (Dec 19, 2015)

The bradford white EF series water heaters are great and have extremely high recovery rates. This one is a 60 gallon 199k btu installed in a residential home. It heated 60 gallons of 55° water to 140° in just under 10 minutes.


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

Never saw an e.f. in a home, but yes those are top notch


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

Anyone familiar with AO smith ati-540h-p, guy at supply house recommend I use two of them. 10gpm flow rate per unit


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Michaelcookplum said:


> Anyone familiar with AO smith ati-540h-p, guy at supply house recommend I use two of them. 10gpm flow rate per unit
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Did you see that in writing? Unless I was looking at a different model, they're rated for 6.6 GPM.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

plungerboy said:


> Why a bigger pump wouldn't you want more filtered storage? I'm Not a well guy either.


You can store as much water as you want but if the pump is only putting out 55 psi your storage is only going to be 55 psi. Sounds like this guy wants more pressure to make cleaning easier, like a pressure washer type effect. Of course it could be something as stupid as adjusting the pressure switch.


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## Qplumb (Dec 19, 2015)

Michaelcookplum said:


> Anyone familiar with AO smith ati-540h-p, guy at supply house recommend I use two of them. 10gpm flow rate per unit
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He is giving you false numbers. At 70° incoming temp raised to 100° it is rated at 10gpm. I don't know what your incoming temp is but here in Kansas city it's about 55° and you will at least want temp set at 120° which only gives you about 6gpm. I would find out what temp he wants or needs for washing. I'm not a huge fan of tankless water heaters unless used in the right application, which is seldom done.


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

bct p&h said:


> Did you see that in writing? Unless I was looking at a different model, they're rated for 6.6 GPM.



No, that's just what he said


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

Qplumb said:


> He is giving you false numbers. At 70° incoming temp raised to 100° it is rated at 10gpm. I don't know what your incoming temp is but here in Kansas city it's about 55° and you will at least want temp set at 120° which only gives you about 6gpm. I would find out what temp he wants or needs for washing. I'm not a huge fan of tankless water heaters unless used in the right application, which is seldom done.



That doesn't surprise me, the guy at supply house I wanted to speak to(water heater expert) wasn't there this week so I spoke to someone else. That's for the heads up


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## Green Country (Mar 6, 2009)

bct p&h said:


> Of course it could be something as stupid as adjusting the pressure switch.


I would check into adjusting the switch or getting a higher psi switch if it's not adjustable. You may be able to do what you want with the existing pump.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

all well pumps should have an adjustable pressure switch, if you bump up the pressure, make sure you pressure up the expansion tank so the bladder doesnt split, and make sure the pump down the casing is rated for a higher pressure so it doesnt burn up...a secondary pump to boost pressure would be a better option, then you can pressure up what needs higher pressure, just on the cleaning lines..


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Critique QPlumb photo

Bottom fill heater with no Vacuum relief valve.

Bibs or boiler drains in feed lines, no atmospheric vacuum breaker.

Expansion tank, with a control valve in between it and the tank


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

I like the custom expansion tank holder..pvc pipe..


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## Qplumb (Dec 19, 2015)

It's temporary, I have a thermal expansion tank wall clamp coming from supplyhouse.com
I might keep the pvc though it works great!


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## Qplumb (Dec 19, 2015)

GAN said:


> Critique QPlumb photo
> 
> Bottom fill heater with no Vacuum relief valve.
> 
> ...


The inspector just requires hose bibb vacuum breakers. I never break the set screw though, I like to be able to drain water out. 
Never had a problem with water siphoning out, it's in the basement. 
I try to plumb everything for ease of repair that's why I have a ball valve before thermal expansion tank. 
It's residential so inspector is pretty lenient. It also helps when you get along with inspector. 
If it were commercial it would be different.


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## paultheplumber1 (May 1, 2014)

Xylem makes pretty decent control box that will deliver a constant pressure through the system using a standard well pump. It replaces the pressure switch with a transducer. I've installed a few of them to customers with pressure complaints. They all have been happy with them and call it hold your balls pressure.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Michaelcookplum said:


> That doesn't surprise me, the guy at supply house I wanted to speak to(water heater expert) wasn't there this week so I spoke to someone else. That's for the heads up
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Look at intellahot its a commercial water heater line of on demand that has a hi flow rate at a higher delta t. You may want to look at a storage tank set up if demand is that critical. Intellahot has a lot of good points but the flow rate and heat exchanger are quite impressive. Also extremely quiet.


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## mtfallsmikey (Jan 11, 2010)

The real basic issue is whether or not his well has enough capacity, how many GPM will it produce? Most definitely needs a booster, I'd recommend Synchroflo, with VFD's.


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## truckman5000 (Jul 14, 2013)

we have done 3 systems, all were engineered with a big steam boiler. One we did on Nantucket was remodel, the old system was also steam.
I guess it depends on how big of a system you are doing, and the hot water temp requirements. 
The last one, the tanks were all made out of copper. All piping was stainless, the water temp was 190 deg. or something. 
If its a legit brewery id have the guy pay of a good engineer. Its one of those jobs you cant do whatever you want to do.


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