# OK, I've had enough



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Times are tough out there. So tough that a lot of long established plumbing companies are either laying off significant portions of their staff or closing the doors completely. Enrollment in plumbing apprentice classes is down better than 50% nation wide from a couple years ago. Salaries are down or frozen, benefits are hard to come by. A once proud and lucrative trade is slowly dying. So here we are on these DIY forums, freely giving advice and years of knowledge and experiance to homeowners, contractors, handymen, hell any schmuck thats asks us nicely. WHY? why in gods name are we so damn willing to sell out our trade and lively hood just so that we can stroke our ego's ? See me everyone. I'm so smart. I know all the answers. I'll lead you through your whole re-model for FREE. Well no more for me. The only thing anyone is getting from me on other forums is "call a professional" or humerous remarks. I for one am tired of sticking the knife into my own damn back. I've had this discussion with others before and those that defend thier actions always give the same lame excuse. " They are going to do it anyway, so why not help them out" Know what? Probably right. But I would prefer to let them DIY and F*&% it all up so that one of us has to go in and fix it.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Here Here!


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Just don't visit those forums. This is the only plumbing related forum I frequent. There will always guys that get an ego boost or are attempting to build a "good guy" internet presence by coming to the rescue of diy'ers.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Amen to that, Pretty much stopped going to the diy sites and give advice. Why should I? You're right, let them screw it up and then call one of us. Posting free plumbing advice on the internet is a stab in the back to us professionals, STOP DOING IT. I was guilty of it too, not again.:thumbsup:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Not telling how to fix something does work and can provide years of revenue.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Besides having way too much time on my hands, I'll tell you what put this bug up my butt. I recently joined a forum that deals with MGB sports cars. Another member was all pissed off because he and only a few other guys were the ones giving all the advice while the rest of the members were "blood sucking leaches" It occurred to me that 95% of the diy'ers are the same thing. Too damn cheap to do the job right or too damn lazy to do a google search for themselves. Screw them. You don't see your dentist giving you step by step instructions for filling your teeth.


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## IPLUMB (Jul 15, 2009)

I Hear You, Had A Customer Call Today Telling Me How To Fix Her Hose Bib. Told Her It Sounds Like She Has It Under Control, She Doesnt Need My Help.she Said She Doesnt Have The Tools, But She Was Really Snotty Like I Called Her To f##@k With Her.


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## IPLUMB (Jul 15, 2009)

We Are Plumbers Lets Stop The Leaks Please


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

This site is made for plumbers, we don't and will never help a DIY, HO, Handyman, non-plumber on this forum, on here a HO won't find how to fix that leaky faucet, and how to reset that toilet, and this is why this site is unique to all the other ones out there.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Best and far as I can tell, only site for plumbers.


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## UnclogNH (Mar 28, 2009)

DIY and low ball handyhacks are why I'm doing drain service and out of service repairs for now.
Up here DIY is killing us. Home depot and Lowes have killed service plumbing. No new homes being built. Have a master plumber on my street we would team up on some bigger jobs. He's 58 years old and has never seen it this bad. his service work is down 80% 
Said it was a good move to do more drain work for now. Times are bad.
We try to give each other as much work as possible.


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## Charles Mitchel (Jul 26, 2009)

You hit the nail on the head.
Why should we help them when they have the experts at Blow's and Home Cheapo.
Last time I looked if you want education you must pay tuition.And if your in the Union you got to pay due's.
So if they catch me in a supply store and ask me a question, "I have never had that problem".
Just the sorry SOB I am.
Charlie:thumbup:


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## WestCoastPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Well said !

Most of the stuff on the DIY sites is just for the "Master Plumbers" to stroke their own ego, this is why alot of them that post there don't come here to post, this forum is well known by all.

Can't hang with the big boys or show off to non-tradespeople.

I frequent the other sites for fun, I never help out, just post. AAlong time ago I was one of those ego posters, but soon realized its not helping what I set out to do, I set out to clean up the trade and bring plumbing back to what it should be, a profession that is respected.

I am trying to move my company out of residential and into commercial, industrial or something that a handyhack cannot do or does not have the money to invest in. Sad, commercial is all hacked up too in my area, I rack my head day in and day out.

I see the trade going in the dumps. Sad, it seems all I can do is watch...


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

I use to give advice on diy sites but I don't anymore. Those damn idiots would rather take the advice of a handyman than from someone who has over thrity years of plumbing experience under his belt. Screw them let them listen to the handyman then it will make more work for us in the long run.


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## UnclogNH (Mar 28, 2009)

al said:


> I use to give advice on diy sites but I don't anymore. Those damn idiots would rather take the advice of a handyman than from someone who has over thrity years of plumbing experience under his belt. Screw them let them listen to the handyman then it will make more work for us in the long run.


Sad that people take advice from someone that charges 10 bucks an hour
with no license.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

al said:


> I use to give advice on diy sites but I don't anymore. Those damn idiots would rather take the advice of a handyman than from someone who has over thrity years of plumbing experience under his belt. Screw them let them listen to the handyman then it will make more work for us in the long run.


Oh how I love the ones that tell you they do not need to follow any code. It was attitudes like that made me slow down on helping anyone. Now I will post on ones that might get me some work, like over on Terry's forum the lady with the failed flood control, I had a gut feeling the system she talked about is one I seen 1000 times in this area.

NhMaster I agree with you 100%, only real reason I went to the DIY forums was to get my link out there for the DIY'ers that really need a real plumber in my area. Then you get caught up in giving advice. If you look at 90% of my posts I do tell them to call a pro though.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

These are always the same guys that buy the $ 19.95 set of brake pads rather than the $ 25.00 set. Always the same lame excuses. Can't afford to do it the right way. Plumbers are too expensive. I am pretty handy. When the budget allows. Screw them. Screw them all. Let them do their own hack plumbing and drown in a river of turds for all I care. What we need is a good outbreak of cholera or diphtheria to set things back on the right track. Or wait till some diy hack back siphons some toxic chemical and poisons half a city block. Then the lawsuits will fly and the plumbing boards and impotent inspectors will all be hiding under their desks and wishing they had never been born.


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## UnclogNH (Mar 28, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> These are always the same guys that buy the $ 19.95 set of brake pads rather than the $ 25.00 set. Always the same lame excuses. Can't afford to do it the right way. Plumbers are too expensive. I am pretty handy. When the budget allows. Screw them. Screw them all. Let them do their own hack plumbing and drown in a river of turds for all I care. What we need is a good outbreak of cholera or diphtheria to set things back on the right track. Or wait till some diy hack back siphons some toxic chemical and poisons half a city block. Then the lawsuits will fly and the plumbing boards and impotent inspectors will all be hiding under their desks and wishing they had never been born.


Your in some serious azz kicking mood tonight And 1000% correct.
Let them DIYers have it.
Choke them all to hell NHmaster Let them drown in their poop :thumbsup:


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

WestCoastPlumber said:


> Well said !
> 
> Most of the stuff on the DIY sites is just for the "Master Plumbers" to stroke their own ego, this is why alot of them that post there don't come here to post, this forum is well known by all.
> 
> ...


If I lived in Cali I wouldn't even bother going into the plumbing trade, your codes welcome hacks to steal your work legally.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> Oh how I love the ones that tell you they do not need to follow any code. It was attitudes like that made me slow down on helping anyone. Now I will post on ones that might get me some work, like over on Terry's forum the lady with the failed flood control, I had a gut feeling the system she talked about is one I seen 1000 times in this area.
> 
> NhMaster I agree with you 100%, only real reason I went to the DIY forums was to get my link out there for the DIY'ers that really need a real plumber in my area. Then you get caught up in giving advice. If you look at 90% of my posts I do tell them to call a pro though.



Terry's forum is a joke compared to the Plumbing Zone. He loves stroking his ego over there giving out free advice to the diy'ers!:laughing:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Gotta disagree with you there. Terry himself does not offer much useful advice. Read his posts. Usually they are pretty vague and generally advise calling a plumber. Of course he walks the line there because he caters to the diy'ers but his site and forum does bring him quite a lot of business. I've known Terry for few years now and he's a stand up guy. Now there are a couple mods over there that in my opinion offer way way too much advice.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

I really like the DIYers that give advice, like Ladiesman, and a couple of the other Tankless DIYers that think something like a tankless water heaters is an easy DIY job.


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## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> This site is made for plumbers, we don't and will never help a DIY, HO, Handyman, non-plumber on this forum, on here a HO won't find how to fix that leaky faucet, and how to reset that toilet, and this is why this site is unique to all the other ones out there.


 
A [D I Y] troll can still come on this site and get info. I never go into step by step how I've done anything on this site and never will. Hell, I might cause one of you to screw something up that I've done different and then I would feel like H E L G O R E .:yes:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Ladies man, now don't that bring back memories. Wonder whatever happened to that fool? Probably blowed himself up. :whistling2:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Hey mods, stickey?


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Thank you, I am guilty of helping on a DIY forum. You are 100% right. I vow to never help on DIY forums ever again. There really is NO reason to help them, its destructive to the trade as a whole. Nh thanks again for showing me the light.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Gotta disagree with you there. Terry himself does not offer much useful advice. Read his posts. Usually they are pretty vague and generally advise calling a plumber. Of course he walks the line there because he caters to the diy'ers but his site and forum does bring him quite a lot of business. I've known Terry for few years now and he's a stand up guy. Now there are a couple mods over there that in my opinion offer way way too much advice.


Sorry nhmaster but I disagree with you. Either your website gives advice to diy'ers or it doesn't. His site does, and does ALOT, he does, his mods do and so do most of the posters! Can't have it both ways imo.:no:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I spose, but I have a lot of respect for Terry so maybe I give him a pass.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Terry is a member on here, he did not stay long, I wish he'd show up and be part of this site, when he 1st appeared on here, I was surprised.


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## ruddiger (Jul 21, 2009)

Preach it nhmaster! This site is the only one I go to and only because I know there's other plumbers like myself. I spent a lot of time browsing the posts before joining and even though I've only been here a short time, I feel like i belong. Never give free advice, especially when times are tough. When dispatch calls me to talk to a customer for "advice" I tell him the first thing he needs to do is find someone to apprentice under. They get pissed, but who cares, like you say, dentists don't tell you how to fix your teeth, layers don't give free advice, the list goes on. We are no different.


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## NickTex (Jun 18, 2008)

I've never understood why anyone would want to talk plumbing DIY regardless of the free advice aspect. I like talking about plumbing with plumbers and about the business and the pain in the butt customers and the horror stories etc, etc. I learn from you guys, but I've never been interested in sitting around having to explain to Joe Blow how to fix a commode. Its always interesting at social functions when people find out that I'm a plumber and that I run a plumbing company. Suddenly everyone there wants to ask questions and get advice. I'm happy to tell them about tankless water heaters and what toilet brand would suit their needs best and I am always quick to explain that "My company can handle the situation for you from start to finish. Would you like us to contact you in the morning and set up an appointment?" They'll try to convince me that they don't actually need a plumber if I could just tell them the "trade secrets." Which I must say, in the words of several of the distinguished members of this forum, SCREW EM. Those trade secrets cost me alot to learn and I'm not interested in giving them away. I usually try to find out what they do and then try to ask countless inane questions about their boring and pointless career path. 

Of course, when it is a good friend and the relationship is mutual then by all means I will go out of my way to help you help yourself. However, I don't call you on Sunday afternoons seeking financial investment advice, so don't do it to me.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

I used to offer some advice but I'm shying away from it. I, too, am sick of hearing how they can't afford it. They seem to be able to afford everything else, but are living with no plan for the future. 

I like Terry, but I can only read a few threads over there before I leave in disgust. People think that plumbing is something anyone can do and all they need is some simple explanation. But they have no sense of responsibility. They want it to "just work" even if it means their family gets poisoned by sewer gas or worse. 

And it's obvious that most of the people asking questions have no idea what they're doing or what plumbing is all about. They post some chicken scratches and want to know if that's an OK design for a basement bath, with no code book, experience, or knowledge of working with that kind of tools. 

Then, two years later, they sell their house to some unsuspecting schmuck and the new owner is stuck with whatever foibles these mean and petty thieves leave behind.


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## tnoisaw (Jun 16, 2009)

al said:


> I use to give advice on diy sites but I don't anymore. Those damn idiots would rather take the advice of a handyman than from someone who has over thrity years of plumbing experience under his belt. Screw them let them listen to the handyman then it will make more work for us in the long run.


Same here.


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## tnoisaw (Jun 16, 2009)

I'm going to play devils advocate. Why wouldn't someone search for advice to save money? I do on other things such as tile work and kayak making. I can save my self tons of money doing it myself and I have saved myself a lot of money by remodeling my own home. I am saving my parents a lot of money by teaching myself to make a shower pan and how to tile. 

Isn't it common since to learn as much as one can to save money?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

NickTex said:


> I've never understood why anyone would want to talk plumbing DIY regardless of the free advice aspect. I like talking about plumbing with plumbers and about the business and the pain in the butt customers and the horror stories etc, etc. I learn from you guys, but I've never been interested in sitting around having to explain to Joe Blow how to fix a commode. Its always interesting at social functions when people find out that I'm a plumber and that I run a plumbing company. Suddenly everyone there wants to ask questions and get advice. I'm happy to tell them about tankless water heaters and what toilet brand would suit their needs best and I am always quick to explain that "My company can handle the situation for you from start to finish. Would you like us to contact you in the morning and set up an appointment?" They'll try to convince me that they don't actually need a plumber if I could just tell them the "trade secrets." Which I must say, in the words of several of the distinguished members of this forum, SCREW EM. Those trade secrets cost me alot to learn and I'm not interested in giving them away. I usually try to find out what they do and then try to ask countless inane questions about their boring and pointless career path.
> 
> Of course, when it is a good friend and the relationship is mutual then by all means I will go out of my way to help you help yourself. However, I don't call you on Sunday afternoons seeking financial investment advice, so don't do it to me.


I have a really quick answer for them and it's the truth. Its against State law here for a licensed plumber to give a person advice as to repair,install or otherwise alter any plumbing system. End of conversation. It would be like a Dr. giving you instructions on the telephone to do a medical proceedure...he would get his butt sued off and loose his license to practice if anything bad happened as a result.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

tnoisaw said:


> I'm going to play devils advocate. Why wouldn't someone search for advice to save money? I do on other things such as tile work and kayak making. I can save my self tons of money doing it myself and I have saved myself a lot of money by remodeling my own home. I am saving my parents a lot of money by teaching myself to make a shower pan and how to tile.
> 
> Isn't it common since to learn as much as one can to save money?


Saving money is good and I don't fault anyone trying to save money. However, with plumbing a lot is at stake. The health issue is huge one, another is liability. One only has to read the 'Bonehead' thread to see what mistakes new inexperienced plumbers (and experienced plumbers) have made causing significant damage. Have one fitting come apart and flood a home - the HO has one heck of a mess and most likely an insurance claim. Anyone who owns a home is paying for this in higher premiums.

Also, I've heard a lot of complaints about pricing over the phone because every situation is different. How can anyone in good faith give out step by step instructions without seeing the job?

If someome wants to learn - go to the library, go to Home Depot, go to Lowes - there are plenty of ways to learn. Personally I think it's rude to ask for this information from a professional when the HO has nothing to offer in return. It may not hurt your business, but it is taking food off the plate of some other plumber, somewhere.

My philosophy is if you really want to help and make a difference with your plumbing knowledge - act as a mentor to a new and upcoming plumber, donate your services and expertise to a charitable organization etc.

Finally, more often than not, the DIY'er HO has a bad attitude when it comes to plumbing. They don't want to pay a professional for his professional knowledge. It's a general lack of respect for a professional's knowledge and expertise. Giving away free information sends the message that plumbing is not all that hard and almost any fool can do it. 

Is that the message you want to send? If plumbing is so easy you can train someone over the internet - then why do so many professional handyman screw up the plumbing consistently?

9/10 when someone replaces old linoleum with floor tile, the toilet flange needs to be raised. Can't tell you how often we have gone behind a tile go who thought setting a toilet was easy.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

How do you think auto mechanics feel?


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## cajunplumberjoe (Mar 26, 2009)

Giving Plumbing Advise To A H.o. Is Like Giving A Thief Your Pin Number And Atm Card. You Know Nothing Good Will Come Of It.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I want to thank all you guys that have posted. You have renewed my faith in "professional plumbers" You are all a thoughtful bunch of guys that realize just exactly what is at stake here. I told Cass over at terry's that I would no longer post advise of any kind over there out of respect for Terry and also invited him to join us here.


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## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

I actually had a woman call wanting advice on clearing a stopped up laundry line. Her husband was in the process of trying to do it with a rented machine while she was on the phone with me. I told her 'good luck with that' - she yelled something and hung up.
She calls back about 15 minutes later screaming 'I called another plumber and he was happy to give me advice' . " I'm going to HD right now to get a bigger machine like he suggested and I'll still get it done for less than what you would have charged me".
I said " good luck with that".:thumbup::thumbup:


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

para1 said:


> I actually had a woman call wanting advice on clearing a stopped up laundry line. Her husband was in the process of trying to do it with a rented machine while she was on the phone with me. I told her 'good luck with that' - she yelled something and hung up.
> She calls back about 15 minutes later screaming 'I called another plumber and he was happy to give me advice' . " I'm going to HD right now to get a bigger machine like he suggested and I'll still get it done for less than what you would have charged me".
> I said " good luck with that".:thumbup::thumbup:


CLASSIC! It never ceases to amaze me how rude and disprespectful some people can be to our trade.
* She acted like it was your duty to give free advice on the phone to total strangers.*:no:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Spose she will call you from the emergency room when her dumb assed husband cuts his fingers off? :whistling2:

Bigger Machine :laughing:


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

I do not give how to advice online. I like this forum because of the people here. I think it is fun, and it is about professionals learning from professionals. I am always paranoid about liability even on the internet.


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