# Fernco



## Bill

I heard you could not use a fernco horizontal. If this is true, then what do you do when installing another line to an existing say under a concrete slab. You have to cut the pipe to accept the new fitting, then you must cut the piece for the other end 1-1/2" shorter so you can get it into the hub. Thus when you push it on you wind up with a 1-1/2" gap. A no hub band would hold the pipes together better and prevent sag, but they are only 2" wide which means you only have 1/4" on each end of the pipe. Even if you use a slip coupling you only wind up with 3/4" over each end. What do you do?


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## Ron

Under our code, we can use fernco's where ever we feel, horizontal, vertical, diagonal, inverted, right side up, what ever you want to call it, we can use them there.


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## user4

You can't use them above ground in Chicago, period.


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## JCsPlumbing

New to THIS forum. We can't use a Fernco at all in N.C.

J.C.


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## Ron

HI JC how about an intro from you?


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## GrumpyPlumber

JCsPlumbing said:


> New to THIS forum. We can't use a Fernco at all in N.C.
> 
> J.C.


*Same here buddy...'bout time ya found this place.*


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## Plumber_Pete

Can't use them at all here in TX either.


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## I'mYourTourGuide

You can use them in KY and underground if they have stainless steel bands around them and stainless steel clamps.


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## Song Dog

Killertoiletspider said:


> You can't use them above ground in Chicago, period.


Even within the state of IL. But there would be times that it would be a whole lot easier if you can use above ground, let say on a remodel/repipe with CI.
I have troubles making the NO-Hubs (bands) look worth a hoot at times.

In Christ,

Song Dog


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## JCsPlumbing

*Crooked NO HUB/Mission Band*

Yes, it does suck when your No Hub or Mission Band (brand?) go crooked on the cast iron side. 

I blame crazy castings and service weight, regular, etc. 

A PVC transition fitting helps though. 

J.C.


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## Bill

So, for those of you who can not use them, how do you join a tee wey into an existing line to connect the 2?


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## JCsPlumbing

*Understand?*



USP45 said:


> So, for those of you who can not use them, how do you join a tee wey into an existing line to connect the 2?


I didn't quite understand this question? Could you restate it? 

J.C.


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## Ron

The question is how do you tie in a new line into an existing line if you have no movements in the existing line, say like a line in the ground?


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## JCsPlumbing

Gotcha'. Depends what's going on but I have dug the line out say... 10' both ways. Measure, raise them both above the trench, then push them down together. 

J.C.


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## Bill

Exactly Ron. Say you want to add a line to an existing line thats under a concrete slab. You can not do anything but dig up where the new pipe will join into the existing one. So you dig it up, cut the existing line, install the fitting. Now you have a space on the other side. You measure the lenght, BUT you need to cut it 1-1/2" shorter so you can slide it into the hub. That leaves a 1-1/2" gap between the pipes. So a No-Hub band is 2" wide, so that leaves 1/4" on each pipe. A slip coupling is 3" long, so 3" - 1-1/2 leaves 1-1/2 " of coupling left to hold 2 ends of the pipe. That divided by 2 means you only have 3/4" of coupling holding each end.


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## Bill

JCsPlumbing said:


> Gotcha'. Depends what's going on but I have dug the line out say... 10' both ways. Measure, raise them both above the trench, then push them down together.
> 
> J.C.


But what if it is under a concrete slab, you can not lift the pipe high enough to make it work.


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## JCsPlumbing

Depends. Each situation is different. I usually can think my way around it. If it's *inside* under a slab-more thinking. :whistling2:

If it's the outside edge or under a few feet, transition and go. 

J.C.


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## user4

Ron The Plumber said:


> The question is how do you tie in a new line into an existing line if you have no movements in the existing line, say like a line in the ground?


With cast iron, you use a sisson joint.


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## JCsPlumbing

Killertoiletspider said:


> With cast iron, you use a sisson joint.


Got to be honest, not sure if I would no a sisson joint if it was sitting beside me. 

Describe one, and is it approved under the IPC? Thanks. 

J.C.


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## JCsPlumbing

*Forum Dying*

THIS FORUM IS DYING. SOMEBODY JUMP IN EVEN IF IT'S WRONG. 

J.C.


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## 22rifle

I never had a problem using a no-hub in situations I cannot move the pipe.

Say I am tying a 3" wye into an existing horizontal line in the trench. I will cut 12" more than the length of the wye out (less if I have to). Then I glue a 7 1/4" piece of pipe into each end of the barrel of the wye. I now have a 5 3/4" stub out each end of the wye.

Now loosen the bands, slide the metal part onto the stubs, slip the rubber part onto the end of the stub. (Do the same for each stub.)

Next fold the rubber part out onto itself and push it back from the edge of the stub slightly. You can now drop this assembly into the space you cut out. Unfold the rubber back out onto the original pipe. Wiggle it around until you have it perfectly centered and aligned. (Remember that 1/4" we cut the stubs short? That allows for the ridge inside the rubber.)

Slide the metal band back over it and tighten 'er down. I assume you use a no-hub wrench for that. I do.


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## JCsPlumbing

THANK GOODNESS 22! 

Done that too but you put it into words better. Been awhile. You can also get the ridge and extra "roll" of rubber that's in the way to push up on the pipe. 

P.S.-Still don't know what a sisson joint is. Anything like a Spittoon?

J.C.


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## WestCoastPlumber

Heyyyyllllloooooo JC'S, nice to see you here.

Fernco's approved here, anywhere we want. I like them and do not like them....



I like them because they seal better on aged cast iron.

I do not like them because of the all rubber support issues

I like shielded fernco's, which I just discovered recently, thanks aaron. they are about $40 and fergusons should have them. they have the sealing action of a fernco, with the support of a no hub.


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## user4

JCsPlumbing said:


> Got to be honest, not sure if I would no a sisson joint if it was sitting beside me.
> 
> Describe one, and is it approved under the IPC? Thanks.
> 
> J.C.



You can view the specs here.

I have no idea what IPC code allows or disallows, we don't use it here.


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## Plumberman

Had an inspector tell us that you couldnt co-mingle piping. (cast iron in dirt/Pvc on top out) Pointed out in our code where it states "Co-mingling of material is allowed when joined by a flexiable coupling or no-hub band". Ferncos are fair game down here.


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## 422 plumber

West Coast,
you are talking about a* non-shear coupling. *We get them for around 10-20 bucks, depending on size.


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## grandpa

USP45 said:


> So, for those of you who can not use them, how do you join a tee wey into an existing line to connect the 2?


I think we may have some terminology mixed up. The original question mentioned "Fernco" couplings. Fernco is just a brand, but I think many of the answers were referring to the smooth inner wall, unbanded rubber couplings. Fernco also makes the banded no-hub couplings to fit all the various combinations of pipes.


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## Bill

grandpa said:


> I think we may have some terminology mixed up. The original question mentioned "Fernco" couplings. Fernco is just a brand, but I think many of the answers were referring to the smooth inner wall, unbanded rubber couplings. Fernco also makes the banded no-hub couplings to fit all the various combinations of pipes.



Exactly. My bad, Un shielded rubber coupling. Just get used to calling then fernco here.


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## Double-A

Are MJ fittings for anything but ductile and is ductile the same OD as cast/PVC? If you answer yes to both of these questions, then there's your answer. No-hub fittings with MJ connections.

I seem to recall the ductile being a bit larger OD, but I'm old now, and I have to look at my business card to remember my name most days.


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## Plumberman

MJ fittings are good for ductile and C900. Ductile is a heavier cast and its a thicker OD as you said. You can join Sch. 40 PVC to ductile with MJ sleeves but you have to have a transitonal gland and cam locks rated for Sch. 40 not C900


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## Double-A

I knew someone would know. I've worked on ductile a few times, we're required to put it under any paved surface for sewers by our AHJ (excluding residential until you hit the property line, then you're back to the rule above).

I don't have a lot of experience with it and couldn't recall all the junk needed to tie to cast. We can use Ferncos (I know, trade name) underground, but we have to encase them 360 degrees in concrete (they prefer 100% Portland cement, actually) to rigidize and rodent protect the joint.


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## blowfish

if you use two ferncos you won't get that gap, glue a piece of pipe in both ends of the fitting then cut your pipe to that length slide on two ferncos and then slide them back, no gap


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## Anthony Cicero

I try to keep the closing No-Hub bands square with my fingers when I'm tightening to torque.


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## younger-plumber

U CANT USE THEM AT ALL!!!??? how do you join diff kinds of piping? like cast and pvc? or terra cotta and pvc? lol. that sounds like hell to me! haha. specially with spot repairs in sewers!


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## Wiser

We just failed an inspection because Sewer Dept. wouldn't let us use ferncos to add a wye in a 6" line at the corner of a driveway and road, 4' down. The Engineering Dept. told us to get "Beater couplings." We had never heard of them. Had to go to a utility supplier and get "Beater couplings." Not sure if that is the spelling, but the material cost was $145.00 and it did work!

However, the Ferncos work too and it wasn't fun digging and backfilling the hole twice!


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## Plumberman

Plumbcrazy said:


> We just failed an inspection because Sewer Dept. wouldn't let us use ferncos to add a wye in a 6" line at the corner of a driveway and road, 4' down. The Engineering Dept. told us to get "Beater couplings." We had never heard of them. Had to go to a utility supplier and get "Beater couplings." Not sure if that is the spelling, but the material cost was $145.00 and it did work!
> 
> However, the Ferncos work too and it wasn't fun digging and backfilling the hole twice!


What is this Beater Coupling you speak of? PVC? If so I am thinking a Knock On


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## CA PLMBR

younger-plumber said:


> U CANT USE THEM AT ALL!!!??? how do you join diff kinds of piping? like cast and pvc? or terra cotta and pvc? lol. that sounds like hell to me! haha. specially with spot repairs in sewers!


To join 2 different types of pipe such as clay and abs/pvs you would use a Calder coupling and a bald bushing (looks like a big hockey puck with a hole in the middle).


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## Plumberman

Ca Welcome to the forum.... Post an intro in the intro section and tell us a little bout yourself.


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## Ron

CA PLMBR said:


> To join 2 different types of pipe such as clay and abs/pvs you would use a Calder coupling and a bald bushing (looks like a big hockey puck with a hole in the middle).


Calder couplers are against code here in Oregon.


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## Plumberman

Ok, Beater couplings and Calder couplings what the sizzle are they?:confused1:


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## 422 plumber

*The skinny on Ferncos*

I use them when the galvanised nipple threaded into the tapped tee on it's back laying on the dirt in the crawl has broke off. I use them when the situation warrants it. Usually, I use shielded, non-shear couplings.


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## Wiser

Plumberman said:


> What is this Beater Coupling you speak of? PVC? If so I am thinking a Knock On


Chad - I don't know the official name, but the supply house knew exactly what we were talking about. It is PVC with a rubber gasket on the inside at the ends. You put it over the end of the other pipe and have to 'beat' it on, I guess that's why it's known around here as a 'beater' coupling. Maybe it's the same as a Knock On. Husband worked in MD for twenty years, did a ton of commercial and this was the first he has ever seen it.

If you want more info, I can look it up on the sales receipt when I get in the office.


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## Plumberman

Plumbcrazy said:


> Chad - I don't know the official name, but the supply house knew exactly what we were talking about. It is PVC with a rubber gasket on the inside at the ends. You put it over the end of the other pipe and have to 'beat' it on, I guess that's why it's known around here as a 'beater' coupling. Maybe it's the same as a Knock On. Husband worked in MD for twenty years, did a ton of commercial and this was the first he has ever seen it.
> 
> If you want more info, I can look it up on the sales receipt when I get in the office.


OK, we call it a knock on. We use them for water service and drains. I know exactly what a beater coupling is:laughing: Used a ton of them


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## Double-A

And here I thought a beater coupling was a marriage between two spousal abusers. :blink:


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## Plumberman

Still wondering what a calder coupling is


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## uaplumber

Plumberman said:


> Still wondering what a calder coupling is


 http://www.jointscouplings.com/couplings.php


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## Plumberman

Ahh.... I lump them all together and say Fernco, trade name I know


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## Ron

Caulder is like a fernco, more ridgid rubber but is bigger in diameter, then you get a rubber bushing for what type of pipe you dealing with. I hated them when I did use them long long time ago.


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## plumbingpaul

Ferncos are great for joining 2 diffrent pipes together and for service applications where your in tight spots.


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## gabby

I am in VA and have never been turned down by inspector for a fernco coupling. I use them to go from abs to pvc all the time.


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## Plasticman

I had a county inspector question me about a fernco I installed in a new home on the 3" riser going to the upstairs bath. I had a leak on my pvc drain close between 2 fittings so I tore it out and used a ferco to help re-connect it. He called his supervisor and he said it was ok. Sure saved me a lot of work. I have had no problems with them.


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## Ron

We use them all the time, there code approved for all applications


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## WestCoastPlumber

By Fernco, I guess you all mean Fernco Brand all rubber's, I like Mission All rubber's, Mission seems to be a bit softer then Fernco, does anyone else find this true?

I like the way Mission feels on old cast iron, to me, better then Ferncos, to me Ferncos are much harder in my mind

As far as code, not under a slab, or within the structure, although I have used them under a slab because I wanted a better seal around the 40 year old cast iron, better then what a no-hub was going to offer, I just pack my dirt really tight so there aren't any sags.


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## Protech

I use ferncos and/or mission under ground. Mission and/or no-hub above ground.


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## WestCoastPlumber

verticle waste lines always get shielded bands. I only use all rubbers on sewer, and some drain that is horizontal underground, nothing suspended or anything.


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## Redwood

It's kinda funny but when people say Fernco they are almost always talking about these couplings...










Even though these are also made by Fernco...


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## WestCoastPlumber

very true, the shielded all rubbers would be approved under a slab here, only problem, they are a special order in my area:furious: :furious:


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## Redwood

Here even HD sells the Fernco Proflex ones in the upper left.


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## WestCoastPlumber

Redwood said:


> Here even HD sells the Fernco Proflex ones in the upper left.


 

Yeah, I mean't the ones on the very bottom, the all rubbers, but with the shield :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## Redwood

These are the ones that HD has here... They are sheilded.


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## ASUPERTECH

Protech said:


> I use ferncos and/or mission under ground. Mission and/or no-hub above ground.


Ditto here, I think it does say in National code book, that under gnd joints of this kind (unshielded) should be cemented over though. But it doesn't make that reference in our F. Code book yet.


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## solarman.net

Personally I think a No Hub coupling is better beacuse the ss band keeps the pipe aligned: However I have had inspectors fail a No Hub and prefer a Fernco. I didn't understand that. I think it's just up to the inspector!


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## crowejr77

22rifle said:


> I never had a problem using a no-hub in situations I cannot move the pipe.
> 
> Say I am tying a 3" wye into an existing horizontal line in the trench. I will cut 12" more than the length of the wye out (less if I have to). Then I glue a 7 1/4" piece of pipe into each end of the barrel of the wye. I now have a 5 3/4" stub out each end of the wye.
> 
> Now loosen the bands, slide the metal part onto the stubs, slip the rubber part onto the end of the stub. (Do the same for each stub.)
> 
> Next fold the rubber part out onto itself and push it back from the edge of the stub slightly. You can now drop this assembly into the space you cut out. Unfold the rubber back out onto the original pipe. Wiggle it around until you have it perfectly centered and aligned. (Remember that 1/4" we cut the stubs short? That allows for the ridge inside the rubber.)
> 
> Slide the metal band back over it and tighten 'er down. I assume you use a no-hub wrench for that. I do.


Very good explanation. That's exactly how we do it.:thumbsup:


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## Adamche

Ferncos are all the go here, great for transitioning from CI to Copper,pvc brass or earthenware(terracotta). we dont have the shielded ones but i like the look of them.


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## jeffreyplumber

So you can join plastic pipe with a no hub coup. but you cant use a fernco??
Kind of odd we use a fernco vertical or horizontal when in a tight spot. Its approved for upc plastic to plastic.


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## Boomer!

I thought I heard that Fernco had a lawsuit and was an approved connection under the international code. Could have been supply house jibber ? We still use the banded transition fittings underground despite there cost and above ground when applicable No-hub/Mission with PVC adapter. 

Every State may even be different, just wondering if anyone heard the same. I tend to take what some of the Plumbers at our local supply house only because some of them haven't read a code book since the 80's or may not be able to read at all...


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## grandpa

I think some of the confusion here is TERMINOLOGY.

FERNCO and MISSION RUBBER are _*BRAND NAMES*_.

Both make a variety of fittings such as simple rubber couplings with end clamps, and banded couplings of all varieties.


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## smoldrn

We're not allowed to use Fernco's in the ground here, only NH. Either is ok above grade.


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## Boomer!

They have been allowing the use of unbanded "elastomeric seal" (<SINCE WE HAVE TO BE SO TECHNICAL" underground here. I personally prefer not to below ground myself. I heard that FERNCO won a lawsuit arguing the effectiveness and won, that is what I was wondering. Did anyone here anything similar ?


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## mccmech

smoldrn said:


> We're not allowed to use Fernco's in the ground here, only NH. Either is ok above grade.


What the heck is the difference? They are both rubber fittings with clamps. The only benefit I've seen for the "Mission" bandis in a tight confine. The mission band has a thin enough wall to let ya roll it back on itself to fit the pipe in. Fernco walls are too fat to do that & sometimes ya don't have enough pipe on either side of cut to slide the fernco past the cut. Other than that, I'd put my confidence in the thick-walled fernco 7 days a week.


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## justin

mccmech said:


> What the heck is the difference? They are both rubber fittings with clamps. The only benefit I've seen for the "Mission" bandis in a tight confine. The mission band has a thin enough wall to let ya roll it back on itself to fit the pipe in. Fernco walls are too fat to do that & sometimes ya don't have enough pipe on either side of cut to slide the fernco past the cut. Other than that, I'd put my confidence in the thick-walled fernco 7 days a week.


fernco doesent have an exterior shield. and has less pullout strength than a mission. mission is total coverage of clamping and fernco is on the ends only.


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## Boomer!

I have complete faith in all of them, if you bed the pipe correctly none of them should be an issue. The major issue we had here was the contractors were not taking the time to insure they properly bedded the pipe and the bands were slipping off causing a belly in the line or completely coming. 

Here is what we have been using underground for reassurance. http://www.fernco.com/plumbing/shielded-couplings/strong-back-rc-couplings
I still always compact stone or pea gravel at my connections and along the base of the installed pipe.


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## smoldrn

mccmech said:


> What the heck is the difference? They are both rubber fittings with clamps. The only benefit I've seen for the "Mission" bandis in a tight confine. The mission band has a thin enough wall to let ya roll it back on itself to fit the pipe in. Fernco walls are too fat to do that & sometimes ya don't have enough pipe on either side of cut to slide the fernco past the cut. Other than that, I'd put my confidence in the thick-walled fernco 7 days a week.


I agree with you 100%, but I don't make the rules. Of course, here they're not really what I'd call inspectors, instead, they call themselves 'code enforcement specialists' aka shake & bakes.


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## Tymon

bill said:


> i heard you could not use a fernco horizontal. If this is true, then what do you do when installing another line to an existing say under a concrete slab. You have to cut the pipe to accept the new fitting, then you must cut the piece for the other end 1-1/2" shorter so you can get it into the hub. Thus when you push it on you wind up with a 1-1/2" gap. A no hub band would hold the pipes together better and prevent sag, but they are only 2" wide which means you only have 1/4" on each end of the pipe. Even if you use a slip coupling you only wind up with 3/4" over each end. What do you do?


also new to forum.tymon out of houston.(2time .jp). Maybe i missed it,but didnt see anyone mention widebody clamp,(4band). Certain inspecters prefer those over no hubs, and ferncos on vents only, again depends where you are.


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## 130 PLUMBER

Killertoiletspider said:


> With cast iron, you use a sisson joint.


 
Yep, but only on a vertical line


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## 504Plumber

justin said:


> fernco doesent have an exterior shield. and has less pullout strength than a mission. mission is total coverage of clamping and fernco is on the ends only.


?? A little hard to make out but I fail to see how they only have clamps on the end. Go ahead, clamp two pipes with a fernco w/ shear ring and two more with a no-hub clamp, see which one comes apart.


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## SewerRatz

I took a tour of Fernco's plant a few years ago. One of the largest misconceptions about their product is that it is made of rubber. Other brands like mission couplings are rubber couplings. Fernco is made of a flexible PVC. Have a read on this page, second paragraph. http://www.fernco.com/plumbing/flexible-couplings

Also here in Illinois the only ones we can use underground is the shielded couplings. Also if we where to use no-hub couplings on PVC pipe we need to use a no-hub transition fittings.

In the City of Chicago, they are not allowed above ground at all. On vertical waste stacks you use a sission fitting, under ground you have to take out enough pipe to be able to squeeze in your new fittings and pipe. Not sure if they allow them underground now or not. I always did it the way my father taught me.


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## DesertOkie

Double-A said:


> Are MJ fittings for anything but ductile and is ductile the same OD as cast/PVC? If you answer yes to both of these questions, then there's your answer. No-hub fittings with MJ connections.
> 
> I seem to recall the ductile being a bit larger OD, but I'm old now, and I have to look at my business card to remember my name most days.



I think Ductile is the same as CA pipe. It's all fernco's in my area of OK. In my area of of AZ it was missions or huskies.


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## deerslayer

It's neat to hear all the different codes. In cincinnati we can use unshielded ferncos underground and I always encase with concrete not sure if its required. Above ground proflex bands for transitions or tie ins. No hub bands are not legal to attach to pvc.


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## nadroj26

If you are connecting to a 6 inch main why not use saddle wyes like you would on asbestos concrete. grind the right size hole into the pipe, add saddle and your good to go.


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## Joeypipes 23

I believe they are not allowed here in NYC. But to be honest i rather not use them, i prefer a husky or mission clamp


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## mccmech

Joeypipes 23 said:


> I believe they are not allowed here in NYC. But to be honest i rather not use them, i prefer a husky or mission clamp



Because of the regional terminology thing, would you mind describing a "husky".


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## Joeypipes 23

mccmech said:


> Because of the regional terminology thing, would you mind describing a "husky".


Its a name of a manufacturing Co.


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## jeffreyplumber

mccmech said:


> Because of the regional terminology thing, would you mind describing a "husky".


We usually refer to a husky because of name brand and also to describe a no hub band that contains 4 or more clamps they are a bigger head 3/8ths in stead of 5/16 and they are torqed to 80inches instead of 60. They are not required for normal use but on high dollar jobs such as school or hospitol are often in the specs


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## Ansel

Jc, you say that ferncos are not allowed in N.C., and by that I assume that you mean North Carolina. Well, your infirmation is not quite right. As a matter of fact just yesterday here in New Hanover County, Wilmington to be exact I installed some add on sinks in the new VA outpatient clinic. The Va waited too long to make up their minds and the original installation went in and had to be changed. And I used two 4" ferncos to tie into the two existing lines. With prior inspections department approval of course. Do not mistake a single inspectors prejudice for code. And your idea of digging 10' on each side of the repair to lift the pipe is good if a repair needs to be made while underground is still in progress but under an existing slab really? Study a little while longer and get back to us.


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## beachplumber

Yes he is wrong, and I believe he has been gone for a long time?

I would use a repair coupling before digging the pipe up 10' each way.


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## TallCoolOne

Plumber_Pete said:


> Can't use them at all here in TX either.


Fernco now has them with a steel band around them, Legal now

Some other companies are making similiar.


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## TallCoolOne

Dallas Speciality makes heaver duty No Hub with a solid steel band, same size as Fernco.

I find the old Mission No-hubs to be junk


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## TallCoolOne

I use these Clamp Alls, Very sturdy for under slabwork

http://www.clampall.com/Hi-Torq%20125.htm


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## spartanfan

Finally! I thought i was the only one that uses clamp alls. Torque to 125 psi. that is what i use in the ground because they are the best. I use the sharp little crinkle banded no hubs in the wall. Plain unbanded Ferncos were banned in the ground here in the San Antonio area around 1993.


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## jeffreyplumber

I think I used those clampall bands on USC LA county hospitol. The company provided us with a torque wrench specifialy for those bands and were only 1/4 inch nuts but they were pretty tight so I guess 125 inch pound sounds about right. My guess is they must be pricey


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## TallCoolOne

jeffreyplumber said:


> I think I used those clampall bands on USC LA county hospitol. The company provided us with a torque wrench specifialy for those bands and were only 1/4 inch nuts but they were pretty tight so I guess 125 inch pound sounds about right. My guess is they must be pricey


They have 80 lbs and 125 lbs tourques, The wrench cost about $100.

Sounds like you used the 80lbs, the 125 are 5/16 size


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