# Use of Cu Water Piping in U/g Application



## lma1 (Feb 14, 2011)

Does any plumber or contractor know why copper piping (Type K & L soft temper) is not commonly used in the Metro Vancouver area in underground application either under a building or outside it even though BCPC (2014 & previous editions) permits it?


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

lma1 said:


> Does any plumber or contractor know why copper piping (Type K & L soft temper) is not commonly used in the Metro Vancouver area in underground application either under a building or outside it even though BCPC (2014 & previous editions) permits it?


Just guessing here but could it be cost?


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## BC73RS (Jan 25, 2014)

Cost of course, but mid seventies and older homes you can find type K soft, why do you ask?


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## Rexticle (Nov 12, 2011)

From what I've been told by a plumber from Van is that the water eats the copper pipe. Apparently the water is incredibly soft and doesn't react well with copper.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Rexticle said:


> From what I've been told by a plumber from Van is that the water eats the copper pipe. Apparently the water is incredibly soft and doesn't react well with copper.


Not the softness of water..its the ph..


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

There are micro bugs that can and may eat away the copper . Why don t u ask them then why does the city supply your curb stop with copper . I have seen the city of van only install copper water mains . Don t believe everything your told . When ever I argue an inspector when he says something stupid I usually win .the last one told me I could not shark bite underground and needed to braze . Well by the end of the conversation I was good to concrete the floor . Also they may say that cause they could never figure out how to unroll copper without kinking it so now , nobody is allowed to use it cause he couldn t do it as a plumber.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Lord. What has this site become? Bragging about the use of shark bites under concrete, reduced pressure relief drain lines, copper eating bugs....


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Lord. What has this site become? Bragging about the use of shark bites under concrete, reduced pressure relief drain lines, copper eating bugs....




I agree,gettin worse by the post that for sure


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

We have copper eating bugs in Alberta as well. In Edmonton, a few years back, a guy was trying to steal it from an electrical transmission station. His girlfriend had to call for a body recovery.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Fast fry said:


> There are micro bugs that can and may eat away the copper . Why don t u ask them then why does the city supply your curb stop with copper . I have seen the city of van only install copper water mains . Don t believe everything your told . When ever I argue an inspector when he says something stupid I usually win .the last one told me I could not shark bite underground and needed to braze . Well by the end of the conversation I was good to concrete the floor . Also they may say that cause they could never figure out how to unroll copper without kinking it so now , nobody is allowed to use it cause he couldn t do it as a plumber.


Micro bugs eating copper? 

Is that the punchline to "A tech and a Plumber walk into a bar...."? :laughing:

C'mon Fry, you don't really think bugs eat copper, do you?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Fast fry said:


> *When ever I argue an inspector when he says something stupid I usually win .the last one told me I could not shark bite underground and needed to braze . Well by the end of the conversation I was **good to concrete the floor .*












That's hard to believe. Hard to believe.......

So you expect me to believe that after a plumbing inspector calls you out for something, that your persuasive and eloquent speaking and reasoning ability wins the inspector over to your side and he all of a sudden sees the error of his ways? No way.....:no: Maybe someone else will go for that, but I won't.


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## jigs-n-fixtures (Feb 22, 2014)

Rexticle said:


> From what I've been told by a plumber from Van is that the water eats the copper pipe. Apparently the water is incredibly soft and doesn't react well with copper.


I think the water may be soft and slightly acidic and eats the pipe. 

Real issue in the Pacific North West, where most drinking water is surface water from the forested areas that are primarily conifers.

Dignity, Honor, and Respect: Even when their, dishonoring disrespect leaves you indignant.


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

The reason I come on here is to share my own experiences . I am not trying to brag . Some guy from Honeywell taught me about the bugs. . He told me about how they cut out some copper and sent it to a lab .it was a new install and all the copper in the building was getting pin holes . It was an ol timer . If don t think he had a reason to lie . I had forgotten about it till the bug thing was mentioned in this thread . As for shark bite. , what should I do . Either braze a coupling on, philmac(plastic) or mueller( brass) . All does the same thing in my mind. It is legal were I am and where I am doing 2-3 jobs a day I have to look at overall time. Anyways I did call inspector on it and he allowed us to cover . Not bragging ... Just saying


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## BC73RS (Jan 25, 2014)

Fast fry said:


> As for shark bite. , what should I do . Either braze a coupling on, philmac(plastic) or mueller( brass) . All does the same thing in my mind. It is legal were I am and where I am doing 2-3 jobs a day I have to look at overall time. Anyways I did call inspector on it and he allowed us to cover . Not bragging ... Just saying


It passed, well I'll be darned. I'm not criticizing you just amazed it passed.
Personally I've used nothing less than a Mueller or Sil Fos and never considered anything less.
I'm too old to change now anyway.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

A couple of good reads on copper corrosion:

http://www.fwr.org/copper.pdf

http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techcorner/prevent_corrosion_cu_tube_buried.html

Now if you'll excuse me I've got to SharkBite this piece of PEX into an underground line under a slab....:laughing:


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

from what red wood posted it looks like there are copper eating or destroying bacteria, or bugs. 

contempt prior to investigation is ridiculous.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Redwood said:


> A couple of good reads on copper corrosion: http://www.fwr.org/copper.pdf http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techcorner/prevent_corrosion_cu_tube_buried.html Now if you'll excuse me I've got to SharkBite this piece of PEX into an underground line under a slab....:laughing:


Not sure that I would classify bacteria as a bug but if true, it is an interesting phenomenon.

On the other hand, we refer to certain illnesses as a bug. Maybe the pipe is just sick.


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## lma1 (Feb 14, 2011)

Thank you all for your answers and comments, humorous or otherwise. Cost is probably one of the reasons as suggested by _love2surf927_ & _BC73RS_? I was more interested in knowing whether this has anything to do with the “aggressive” nature of soils around here that make bare copper (without sheathing) susceptible to external corrosion and hence unsuitable for underground application?


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

BC73RS said:


> It passed, well I'll be darned. I'm not criticizing you just amazed it passed.
> Personally I've used nothing less than a Mueller or Sil Fos and never considered anything less.
> I'm too old to change now anyway.


Yes it is good to go as well as using multiple shark bite fittings . When I started doing houses again after shark bites were invented , I asked inspector how he wanted me to increase the city's 1/2" black poly off of curb stop to my required 1" water main , he was the one that told me that most guys use shark bites. 

And yes you can t change old man. We just have to accept there ways and hope and pray when we aRe that old that we will remain hireable


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I read copper.org back in the stray voltage day. Bugs is new to me....one thing is good. It will be hard for insurance companies to subrogate against the plumber with so much info on failing copper. Somebody in the copper biz is doing their job


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## mrjasontgreek (May 21, 2014)

bugs? That reminds me of an interesting story... I had a pinhole in PEX in a new house a few years ago. It was so small you couldn't see it with the naked eye. Barely misting, it caused damage to a large area of ceiling after a few days. We sent the pipe away for analysis by the manufacturer (Rehau) and they told us that our area has a bug with a little horn that must have poked the pipe and caused the hole! An insect... with a microscopic appendage... that is both thin enough, yet long enough, and strong enough... to cause a pinhole in pex-a that is too small to see. Of course! it must be true! there's no way their pipe could POSSIBLY have a defect! It's Perfect in every way!


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

mrjasontgreek said:


> bugs? That reminds me of an interesting story... I had a pinhole in PEX in a new house a few years ago. It was so small you couldn't see it with the naked eye. Barely misting, it caused damage to a large area of ceiling after a few days. We sent the pipe away for analysis by the manufacturer (Rehau) and they told us that our area has a bug with a little horn that must have poked the pipe and caused the hole! An insect... with a microscopic appendage... that is both thin enough, yet long enough, and strong enough... to cause a pinhole in pex-a that is too small to see. Of course! it must be true! there's no way their pipe could POSSIBLY have a defect! It's Perfect in every way!


Probably got stabbed by a tape measure


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

mrjasontgreek said:


> bugs? That reminds me of an interesting story... I had a pinhole in PEX in a new house a few years ago. It was so small you couldn't see it with the naked eye. Barely misting, it caused damage to a large area of ceiling after a few days. We sent the pipe away for analysis by the manufacturer (Rehau) and they told us that our area has a bug with a little horn that must have poked the pipe and caused the hole! An insect... with a microscopic appendage... that is both thin enough, yet long enough, and strong enough... to cause a pinhole in pex-a that is too small to see. Of course! it must be true! there's no way their pipe could POSSIBLY have a defect! It's Perfect in every way!


Uhh Huh.... :yes:

western conifer seed bug, Leptoglossus occidentalis Heidemann (Hemiptera: Coreidae)


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

I have seen similar types of pinholes in Rahau pex. Both were within a foot of the cold water valve of the water heater. One of the heaters was in a garage and the other was in an attic. Both houses were about 5 years old so they were well past the standard one year plumbing warranty. I prefer Uponor pex. I havent seen pinholes in that type of pex...yet.


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## mrjasontgreek (May 21, 2014)

There are a lot of things I don't like about rehau, stiffer than uponor, the wall is slightly thicker, makes it hard if you need to use a crimped fitting, but we can't get uponor for anywhere near the price, and HePex was never CSA certified for potable, so we couldn't use the scraps. Wasn't worth the extra money and hassle. Add to that the confusion of aquapex and HePex looking very similar and you've got the possibility of mistakes.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I think what we need here is bugs that eat bull squat :laughing:

A freeking shark bite underground? Holy crappy hack plumbing batman :thumbsup: and don't tell me they are acceptd by code. I DONT GIVE A CRAP. Hack plumbing is hack plumbing and you should know better :thumbsup:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I think what we need here is bugs that eat bull squat :laughing:
> 
> A freeking shark bite underground? Holy crappy hack plumbing batman :thumbsup: and don't tell me they are acceptd by code. I DONT GIVE A CRAP. Hack plumbing is hack plumbing and you should know better :thumbsup:


I'm sure there are plenty of bugs that eat bull squat.... :laughing:

But here is the one that likes to poke it's snout into PEX...

The western conifer seed bug, Leptoglossus occidentalis Heidemann (Hemiptera: Coreidae)

If you are installing PEX in a home surrounded by a conifer forest you might want to rethink PEX as the material of choice...


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Rats, mice, squirrels, raccoons they all will chew through it too.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Keeping abreast of one's local conditions seems to be in order here. If my area is typical, local conditions can can be very local. We have cities which sit partially on bay fill (San Francisco Bay) which is considered "hot soil" where metallic pipe (CI, copper) is not allowed to be buried. On one street you can use it, two blocks away you can't. Even the model codes recognize local conditions as legitimate reasons for variance from accepted standards.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Rats, mice, squirrels, raccoons they all will chew through it too.


I'll eat it with peanut butter on it

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> I'll eat it with peanut butter on it
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


I'm holding out for Dipped in Chocolate with a Raspberry Filling....


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