# A PERFECT Navien CH240 installation??



## Jay S. (Aug 9, 2011)

The Zone is a hard core site with some of the best plumbers in America as members. I think we can agree that there are both very intelligent guys here and some that like to display their superior intelligence rather than post new articles. My buddies and I are focused on high efficiency water heating products. Depending on what kind of person you are Enjoy, or over analyze this.  

_Intro: An unqualified "plumber" did a horrible job installing this navien CH240 almost almost 2 years ago. I cannot even list the issues, literally everything was wrong so we took it off the wall and started again. Although there was no fixing the this Navien per say, We're certified Navien repairmen for the Greater NYC area

























































































Thanks for viewing. :thumbsup:
If this isn't a perfect installation I challenge someone to show me a better one._


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

PVC not code approved material for T&P relief line, at least under my code.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Your venting would not pass code here to close to the opening on the left


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Kinda sad to think you are walking on water just to find out it's just a shallow puddle.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Never challenge the zone inspectors to find fault in your work.


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

Salesman


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Having the relief valves tie into that condensate pump really ain't the best thing to do, considering if 1 of those relief valves open up close to full-bore theres gonna be one hell of a mess in that room.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## CTs2p2 (Dec 6, 2011)

That vent on the back flow preventer is tied directly to the relief valve piping! Now it's not protecting anything, you actually made it a double cross connection..

The relief valve is dumping to a condensate pump (not rated for that kind of temp)

Then the condensate pump has that vinyl tubing stuck into a stand pipe that isn't tall enough, just waiting to syphon that trap out once the check in the pump fails..

So you have the "backflow device" potentially cross connected to boiler water and the sewer in one shot.


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## RealCraftsMan (Dec 27, 2011)

I saw a ziptie in there and also a pvc T&P? How about an air break on that line?


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Also jay never say you did a perfect install on here in the zone, cause the word perfect here don't exsist, IMO there's always room for improvement somewhere, although that is great work and I know I probably couldn't do that, there's always room for improvement

Just my thoughts.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## Tim`s Plumbing (Jan 17, 2012)

Jay I don`t see a single hanger on the PVC vent and air for combustion, vent to close to an opening IE walk way and the door on the left. piping looks good but I would not call it a perfect install by any means. 

I to am a certified Navien service tech and installer.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Besides the others:

I know Canada with Old School is slightly different but in US 1' required from openings, porches, etc. for direct vents, dont look far enough here.

6 HW zone valves on a 40 VA transformer or less? shame shame, trouble waiting to happen. 

Also you cannot step down the electronic water feeder connection port with a 12# PRV.

12# static cold system requires a minimum of 25 PSI inlet because internal circ always runs when low pressure switch activates feeder. Circ creates 6-7 PSI outlet for a 18-21 PSI feeder shutoff. 12# PRV will not allow enough fill pressure, it will fill 6 times or try, not hit shutoff pressure and lockout entire unit on error code 28.

I know, I designed a 54 unit job in Atlanta, plumber added PRV not shown in my drawings because he thought it should be there and I forgot it, NOT.

Fortunately he was able to dial it up which may not be the case because it looks like Jay tee'd into primary also. 

In essence installling the PRV on a CH is wasted money.


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## RealCraftsMan (Dec 27, 2011)

ZL700 said:


> Besides the others:
> 
> I know Canada with Old School is slightly different but in US 1' required from openings, porches, etc. for direct vents, dont look far enough here.
> 
> ...


 
I really feal like a dumb arse right now.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Up here anything over 100,000 Btu has to 3 ft from an opening

1ft for under 100,000 Btu from an opening

I am sure that Navien has to be over 100,000 BTU


Code is not the same in USA?


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Up here anything over 100,000 Btu has to 3 ft from an opening
> 
> 1ft for under 100,000 Btu from an opening
> 
> ...


12" on direct vent (2-pipe) 
But 4' on single vent pipe terminations

When you look at the ANZI/NFPA venting guidelines there is 2 columns in many install manuals, one for US, other for Canada. Many are same but Canada is more strict on some distances..


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Another thing, it's impossible to check the air pressure on that xpt with it only being like 9 inches off the floor.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## Jay S. (Aug 9, 2011)

Oh you guys. I know it's not perfect. If you notice I used a question mark in the title, then I clearly said it's not perfect within the post. I'm a plumber/ marketing guy, so naturally I like creating a buzz for our company with page views, and you fell for it. Now, we did the best we could with the budget we had. The homeowner paid the first plumber big money to install it unit originally completely wrong, then good money to the second clueless plumber, by the time we got there. The 4th plumbing company, it was pretty hard to get the homeowner to open his wallet again as you all can imagine. We did 90% of this job for $2,500 in 1 day with 3 guys, few hours the 2nd day wiring. It's not perfect, but it's pretty close. The homeowner is happy, so are we. 

We're moving on to the next navien combi re-installation in East Rockaway LI today or tomorrow, and we have another navien re-installation in Freeport LI this week as well. I sent another CH240 re-installation to my friends at Platinum Plumbing in Philly over the weekend. My friends and I will continue to make money, I will contuine to help homeowners out of a jam & drive some (old school) Zone members nuts. 

Look for my upcoming post! We're installing 5 Intelli hot tankless water heaters in midtown Manhattan as apart of a 450k oil to gas conversion & new boiler installation. If you don't know about the intelli hot yet, check it out, http://www.intellihot.com"/products.html For an extra $200 ad on, the unit sends performance reports via wireless internet to your smart phone on;fuel usage, efficiency, flow rate etc. Pretty cool stuff, and they are American made.


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## Jay S. (Aug 9, 2011)

I was only allowed to post 15 pictures. Didn't know you guys wanted to see pictures of strap hangers!!! You guys are funny as hell, of course we used strap hangers, and of course we know where to drill the hole for the venting! We do a lot of business and wouldn't be in business all these years if we weren't following building codes. You guys have to remember, we're in NYC, North Jersey & Connecticut. My pics are from all 3 areas and our building codes in CT for HE exhaust spacing requirements is much different than Manhattan's. Trust me, we are following all local building codes. Try drilling a 4 inch hole in a high density building development in new york city. You can basically put them where you need to and most inspectors in the city do not consider garage doors the same a door or window like the suburbs. Common sense people, we're not slackers, we put the vent in the only freaking place possible! Peace, love, & respect is all I have for you guys. I know I'm new around here, not trying to be disrespectful but give my guys and I a little slack we know what the we are doing. We have re-installed dozens of Navien's, installed thousands of water heaters, helped countless people.


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## luv2plumb (Apr 30, 2010)

...


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## azmike (Feb 3, 2010)

Jay S. said:


> I was only allowed to post 15 pictures. Didn't know you guys wanted to see pictures of strap hangers!!! You guys are funny as hell, of course we used strap hangers, and of course we know where to drill the hole for the venting! We do a lot of business and wouldn't be in business all these years if we weren't following building codes. You guys have to remember, we're in NYC, North Jersey & Connecticut. My pics are from all 3 areas and our building codes in CT for HE exhaust spacing requirements is much different than Manhattan's. Trust me, we are following all local building codes. Try drilling a 4 inch hole in a high density building development in new york city. You can basically put them where you need to and most inspectors in the city do not consider garage doors the same a door or window like the suburbs. Common sense people, we're not slackers, we put the vent in the only freaking place possible! Peace, love, & respect is all I have for you guys. I know I'm new around here, not trying to be disrespectful but give my guys and I a little slack we know what the we are doing. We have re-installed dozens of Navien's, installed thousands of water heaters, helped countless people.


Code since when do you tie two t&p lines together and dump them into a crummy little condensate pump and what about a trap primer on that new p-trap you installed? I think you better stisk with marketing!


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

azmike said:


> Code since when do you tie two t&p lines together and dump them into a crummy little condensate pump and what about a trap primer on that new p-trap you installed? I think you better stisk with marketing!


Well technically the condensate from the boiler keeps the trap primed, but still.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## azmike (Feb 3, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> Well technically the condensate from the boiler keeps the trap primed, but still.
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


I cant believe you just said that, are you serious or joking?


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

azmike said:


> I cant believe you just said that, are you serious or joking?


That's a condensing boiler, and I don't see how I'm joking, but please correct me

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## azmike (Feb 3, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> That's a condensing boiler, and I don't see how I'm joking, but please correct me
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


Yes I think I will. Whats the ruling on discharging any temp or pressure relief line into a closed vessel?


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

azmike said:


> Yes I think I will. Whats the ruling on discharging any temp or pressure relief line into a closed vessel?


Im not talking bout the condensate pump, I agree with you there, I dont like that either. I was talking bout needing a trap primer.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## azmike (Feb 3, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> Im not talking bout the condensate pump, I agree with you there, I dont like that either. I was talking bout needing a trap primer.
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


OK but then again I dont see how that little bit of condesation will adequatly sustain a 2" p-trap seal! If you think about it you dont get a gushing puddle from underneath a gas water heater when its cooking right?


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

azmike said:


> OK but then again I dont see how that little bit of condesation will adequatly sustain a 2" p-trap seal! If you think about it you dont get a gushing puddle from underneath a gas water heater when its cooking right?



Not everyone is as dry as AZ. In some places condensation runs like rivers, I hate it.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

A condensing boiler and gas wh is two different animals. You want a condensing boiler to condensate a gas water heater you dont, a condensing boiler is made to condensate a gas wh no.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## azmike (Feb 3, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> A condensing boiler and gas wh is two different animals. You want a condensing boiler to condensate a gas water heater you dont, a condensing boiler is made to condensate a gas wh no.
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


OK so whats the correct deffinition according to your code in your state/city/county that you are governed by, whats the description of a allowable trap primer device?


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## azmike (Feb 3, 2010)

DesertOkie said:


> Not everyone is as dry as AZ. In some places condensation runs like rivers, I hate it.


Granted DO we do have our saturation times during the monsoon! I was speaking about a trap primer.. If you want to discuss the true nature of a condensing boiler then why dont you tell me the purpose of a condensing boiler. Is a renai really.. really a boiler or is it a heater? Or it a device to heat water to temp below the BOILING point of 212 degrees?


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

azmike said:


> Granted DO we do have our saturation times during the monsoon! I was speaking about a trap primer.. If you want to discuss the true nature of a condensing boiler then why dont you tell me the purpose of a condensing boiler. Is a renai really.. really a boiler or is it a heater? Or it a device to heat water to temp below the BOILING point of 212 degrees?



I know the monsoons, I moved here from Tucson.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

azmike said:


> OK so whats the correct deffinition according to your code in your state/city/county that you are governed by, whats the description of a allowable trap primer device?












A trap primer is required when the trap seal is subject to evaporation, well the trap seal won't evaporate if the discharge from a condensing boiler is running into it.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> A trap primer is required when the trap seal is subject to evaporation, well the trap seal won't evaporate if the discharge from a condensing boiler is running into it.
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


 So you can't use veggie oil to prevent trap evaporation?


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> So you can't use veggie oil to prevent trap evaporation?


 as second line of protection It would be ok, but as a first line no. A trap primer device must be installed If the trap is subject to evaporation. 

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## azmike (Feb 3, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> as second line of protection It would be ok, but as a first line no.
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


OH looky there you just answered the question [ mechanical primiing device ] First of all, all you produced was a code description of the minimun required depth of the trap seal its self which is no less than 2'' or no more than 4''. A condensate can be determinded as a intermitant source of water supply and there fore is not concidered as a mechanical priming device!


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

azmike said:


> OH looky there you just answered the question [ mechanical primiing device ] First of all, all you produced was a code description of the minimun required depth of the trap seal its self which is no less than 2'' or no more than 4''. A condensate can be determinded as a intermitant source of water supply and there fore is not concidered as a mechanical priming device!


A sink is a intermitant source of water also, but that trap doesn't need a trap primer

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

I wonder if they would consider that condensate intermediate, since it runs year round.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

DesertOkie said:


> I wonder if they would consider that condensate intermediate, since it runs year round.


My thoughts exactly

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Mississippiplum said:


> My thoughts exactly
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


But code is code, he's right on that.:laughing: I just hate trap primers.


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## azmike (Feb 3, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> A sink is a intermitant source of water also, but that trap doesn't need a trap primer
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


Last word and then I'll let this go!
What is the trap piming device or valve on these follwing fixtures and why? kitchen sink,laundry tub, bath/shower, lavatory, laundry waste...?


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

azmike said:


> Last word and then I'll let this go!
> What is the trap piming device or valve on these follwing fixtures and why? kitchen sink,laundry tub, bath/shower, lavatory, laundry waste...?


There's no "trap primer", but the regular use of such fixtures replenishes the trap seal.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I can tell you first hand that a condensating boiler combination Hwt is an acceptable device to use as a trap seal primer.....

If it does not have domestic hwt tied to it in any form then you would need a trap seal primer... because it would be seasonal...

the only way around that would to have AC condensate also going to that trap...

So IMO Miss has it right... the only time you need a mechanical primer is when there is no source of water to keep the trap seal from going dry....


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

making the assumption that the condensing unit used to heat the water will see enough use to keep the trap full of water, that would pass inspection in most locations. My question is what happens if the sewer backs up? I was never comfortable with an open trap within the interior of the building when the flood rim of that trap was below the flood rim of toilets in the same common sewer drain system.


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## Surfing Plumber (Sep 27, 2011)

Perfect? I doubt it...been dealing with Navien since it was first introduced couple years back, nothing but problems,,,here is a proof from homeowner

http://www.complaintsboard.com/comp...ny-does-not-stand-behind-product-c617997.html


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Surfing Plumber said:


> Perfect? I doubt it...been dealing with Navien since it was first introduced couple years back, nothing but problems,,,here is a proof from homeowner
> 
> http://www.complaintsboard.com/comp...ny-does-not-stand-behind-product-c617997.html



Are you some kind of link dropper? 

Surfing meaning, digging up old threads?


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## Jason Payne (Apr 1, 2009)

I have seen that link posted to the point were I know it word for word:thumbup::thumbup: I wish you would have had better luck with the Navien life is too short for all that hate:thumbup::thumbup::laughing::laughing:


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Jay S. said:


> I was only allowed to post 15 pictures. Didn't know you guys wanted to see pictures of strap hangers!!! You guys are funny as hell, of course we used strap hangers, and of course we know where to drill the hole for the venting! We do a lot of business and wouldn't be in business all these years if we weren't following building codes. You guys have to remember, we're in NYC, North Jersey & Connecticut. My pics are from all 3 areas and our building codes in CT for HE exhaust spacing requirements is much different than Manhattan's. Trust me, we are following all local building codes. Try drilling a 4 inch hole in a high density building development in new york city. You can basically put them where you need to and most inspectors in the city do not consider garage doors the same a door or window like the suburbs. Common sense people, we're not slackers, we put the vent in the only freaking place possible! Peace, love, & respect is all I have for you guys. I know I'm new around here, not trying to be disrespectful but give my guys and I a little slack we know what the we are doing. We have re-installed dozens of Navien's, installed thousands of water heaters, helped countless people.


You came here begging for it, chief. Now don't whine about it. 

And, since when is it acceptable to "put the vent in the only freaking place possible"? Dontcha think the rules were written for a reason?

If you got no where to put the vent, then dont install them junk azz water heaters.


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## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

No such thing as perfection on this site!!
Looked good though..


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## rizob (Nov 14, 2011)

A PRV valve is not needed on inlet water and will cause problems. The company I work for installed a Navien and the guys that installed it put a PRV valve in. The system had problems and I was sent out to fix it. I called tech support and we traced it back to the PRV. It needs full water pressure. It will lock out on saftey. 

I have been to the navien training since then and I agree with the problems everyone else stated. It doesn't need a trap primer and the vent does look pretty close even for the 1' rule. It all depends on if the inspector is your friend or not on that one. I would just think about changing most of the problems on your next install but i'm telling you schedule a day and get that PRV out of there or you will be doing one cold snowy night! That is a serious problem not just a small criticism trying to piss you off.


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## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

Mississippiplum said:


> Also jay never say you did a perfect install on here in the zone, cause the word perfect here don't exsist, IMO there's always room for improvement somewhere, although that is great work and I know I probably couldn't do that, there's always room for improvement
> 
> Just my thoughts.
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


Why do you say you couldn't do that? It's just a small heating system. You could do it.


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## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

ZL700 said:


> Besides the others:
> 
> I know Canada with Old School is slightly different but in US 1' required from openings, porches, etc. for direct vents, dont look far enough here.
> 
> ...


What if you had 70 psi on the cold water feed? Do you use a different prv? Does the electronic feed control it?


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## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

azmike said:


> Granted DO we do have our saturation times during the monsoon! I was speaking about a trap primer.. If you want to discuss the true nature of a condensing boiler then why dont you tell me the purpose of a condensing boiler. Is a renai really.. really a boiler or is it a heater? Or it a device to heat water to temp below the BOILING point of 212 degrees?


The thing I hate about rinni and those on demand whater heaters is they cut the hot water pressure down a lot. they leave that out of the brochure.


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## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

azmike said:


> OH looky there you just answered the question [ mechanical primiing device ] First of all, all you produced was a code description of the minimun required depth of the trap seal its self which is no less than 2'' or no more than 4''. A condensate can be determinded as a intermitant source of water supply and there fore is not concidered as a mechanical priming device!


relax captain code book its fine.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

fightnews said:


> What if you had 70 psi on the cold water feed? Do you use a different prv? Does the electronic feed control it?


No PRV required it has a built in internal electronic feed valve operated by a internal pressure switch


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## rizob (Nov 14, 2011)

I don't like that trap either if it's what I think it is. It looks like it drops right into a y which first of all would make it an S trap. Not that I haven't done that myself in a bad situation but wouldn't it not be an S trap if you turned the Y to the side and slightly turned it up? Also doesn't look like there is a check valve in it. You can see the glue joint on the main sewer for the y which means it drops right in. No trap arm at all. I always put a check valve on a trap in a basement. That way a back up won't flood them out. I always make my stand pipe as long as possible but no longer than 18". Sometimes you have no choice but to make them a little short but it looks like you had plenty of room to put one in that would be within spec. for code.

Just trying to give you some observations so you can do the greatest navien install one day.That's why we are here right? To make each other better plumbers so our profession will continue to be an honorable trade with plumbers looked at as a true craftsman. I do see a lot about your install that I like too. It is a very clean looking job. All of your piping work looks really good. We all have something to learn. No one is perfect.


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## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

ZL700 said:


> No PRV required it has a built in internal electronic feed valve operated by a internal pressure switch


thanks ill remember that


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

Relief valve inlets are always vertical here, except for integral connections on water heaters.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

newyorkcity said:


> Relief valve inlets are always vertical here, except for integral connections on water heaters.


Or on some boilers, storage tanks, well service tees, .........

You mean vertical in piping?


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

Specifically, boilers. The inlet to a relief valve must be vertical up. I will look up the local code and post it.


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

I failed once because of zap straps on my pex pipe.anything to make ur self feel superior I guess.......


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## Spridle (Oct 30, 2012)

Cold water service port is blocked by the hot valve.


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## czplumbing (Nov 24, 2014)

From What I can see and whats not allowed in my code book ,1) Pvc is not allowed on any boiler of Hot water reliefs valves, 2) boiler relief , Hot water and back flow preventer vent are tied in together big problem, 3) no neutralizer on condensate line for boiler4) min 12" off the top of navien unit for exhaust 5) sced 80 not required on any navien H/W heater but combi units they are especially if you have dip switch 8 up anyd running theses things at hi temp on boiler side.6) not purge tees good luck getting air out7) no isolation valves on zone valves have fun repairing that.8) should have used a navien manifold for correct spacing


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

czplumbing said:


> From What I can see and whats not allowed in my code book ,1) Pvc is not allowed on any boiler of Hot water reliefs valves, 2) boiler relief , Hot water and back flow preventer vent are tied in together big problem, 3) no neutralizer on condensate line for boiler4) min 12" off the top of navien unit for exhaust 5) sced 80 not required on any navien H/W heater but combi units they are especially if you have dip switch 8 up anyd running theses things at hi temp on boiler side.6) not purge tees good luck getting air out7) no isolation valves on zone valves have fun repairing that.8) should have used a navien manifold for correct spacing



Slightly late. This thread was started in 2012 and the newest response was in 2014.................


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## czplumbing (Nov 24, 2014)

Thanks did not realize that LOL . I guess I brought it back to life


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

czplumbing said:


> Thanks did not realize that LOL . I guess I brought it back to life



dont worry about it... The unit probably has already failed by now or is not keeping up with this present winter blast we are in this week......

I kind of would like to know if they ever de-limed the thing over the past
4 years or did they just walk away and hand it all over to the clueless home-owners to service themselves..... 

yea right thats gonna happen.. lol..


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