# Toliet tank flush valve



## 3KP (Jun 19, 2008)

I over heard 2 plumbers at a supply house a few days ago talking about replacing the flush valve and flapper in the toilet tanks. I can't get one guys comment on his rebuild technic out of my head. It got me thinking. He said when he rebuilds a builder grade toilet it double flushes every time after he installs the new parts. . He use to install an adjustable flapper and remove the one that came with the flush valve. But lately he just adjust the water level lower and trims down the flush valve over flow tube. He said both ways are still flushing the same amount of water. Just now only fills 1/2 - 3/4 way now so they should be saving water? 

Now I keep thinking about what he said. It saves cost on material, But just doesn't seem right to me.. What do you folks think?


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

I would think he'd be losing head pressure to assist the flush if I'm reading it right


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

MTDUNN said:


> I would think he'd be losing head pressure to assist the flush if I'm reading it right


Yep. The toilet is designed to work with a specific amount of water in the tank, if he is getting double flushes he is using the wrong flappers.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

6" of head is less than 1/4 psi in head pressure. Pretty inconsequential to the flush. Standard flapper in a 1.6 gpf toilet will often cause a double flush. It hangs up too long and the fill valve supplements the flush as it flows. You either have to carry a half dozen flappers on your truck to fit all the brands, or you can adjust the water level down. Still takes 1.6 gallons to flush it right. Not saving any water.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Letterrip said:


> 6" of head is less than 1/4 psi in head pressure. Pretty inconsequential to the flush. Standard flapper in a 1.6 gpf toilet will often cause a double flush. It hangs up too long and the fill valve supplements the flush as it flows. You either have to carry a half dozen flappers on your truck to fit all the brands, or you can adjust the water level down. Still takes 1.6 gallons to flush it right. Not saving any water.


Inconsequential but I'll still be charging $175 to auger the toilet when it clogs, I'll also be putting in the right flapper and setting the tank water level to the proper height...:yes:

Why did I say when the toilet clogs?
Because that inconsequential difference is all the difference in the world when it comes to getting a good flush...


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

When adjusting the water level, one should always err on the high side. Which toilet is going to be more likely to clog. The one using the factory 1.6, or the "adjusted" one using closer to 1.8. This is honestly one of those places that I just don't get too uptight about an OEM replacement.

This of course is ONLY true on a basic two piece. I'm not gonna try to make some standard Korky flapper fit a Kohler single piece.


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## Gryphon Plumber (Jun 3, 2012)

Don't forget that the longer the tank fills the more water goes into the bowl while filling. There is a water line in the tank for a reason. Use a adjustable flapper, or be a hack. He is a hack. Remember there are students of the trade, and people who it's just a 9-5 job. This guy is 9-5'r who goes through the day trying as hard as he can not to learn something new.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

What adjustable flapper do you carry that you like so much. Only one I ever see here is a fluidmaster bullseye which I personally consider a POS.

The vast majority of the piping here is cast iron run at 1/16" per ft as the code allowed back in the 60's and 70's when much of the housing went up. I'm sure that the plumbers installing NEVER would have imagined that their systems would see 1.6 gpf, let alone the current 1.28. I'm in favor of a little extra water to help things along.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Letterrip said:


> What adjustable flapper do you carry that you like so much. Only one I ever see here is a fluidmaster bullseye which I personally consider a POS. The vast majority of the piping here is cast iron run at 1/16" per ft as the code allowed back in the 60's and 70's when much of the housing went up. I'm sure that the plumbers installing NEVER would have imagined that their systems would see 1.6 gpf, let alone the current 1.28. I'm in favor of a little extra water to help things along.


I try to steer my customers away just for that reason. It took them a few decades to get the 1.6 toilets right, plumbing engineers had codes switch from 4" to 3" for these toilets and all was good in plumbingland. Then 1.28 comes out. 

On the bright side if you're a sewer guy. Not only will you keep busy with blockages, but you can sell lots of 1.6 toilets. Let's just hope they don't ban them.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Putting the wrong parts into the toilet to make a right is a dis-service to the customer. How about don't be a lazy hack and install the correct parts? I see this in the field way too often (usually on Kohlers). If your going to be a service plumber fix it right, sell them a new better quality toilet, or just do new construction. Leave the service work to the guy that actually understands, the engineer that designed the toilet had something in mind when he came up with the idea for that specific toilet. Most of us curse engineers but when it comes to toilets they know more than we do usually. Its a waste of time to try and re think a toilet tank design. And most times you make it work worse rather than better by retrofitting the wrong parts. Just my .02


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

theplumbinator said:


> Putting the wrong parts into the toilet to make a right is a dis-service to the customer. How about don't be a lazy hack and install the correct parts? I see this in the field way too often (usually on Kohlers). If your going to be a service plumber fix it right, sell them a new better quality toilet, or just do new construction. Leave the service work to the guy that actually understands, the engineer that designed the toilet had something in mind when he came up with the idea for that specific toilet. Most of us curse engineers but when it comes to toilets they know more than we do usually. Its a waste of time to try and re think a toilet tank design. And most times you make it work worse rather than better by retrofitting the wrong parts. Just my .02


I agree. The K on the model number doesn't mean korky!!


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

And more of the backazzward illinois plumbing code still required 4" cast iron pipe below grade for one new 1.28 closet into sewage ejector pit while above have 3" pvc for older three 1.6 closets..


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I had an inspector in Cook County, can't remember what town, flunk me because I branched 2" off the 4" main for a shower. I had to pull everything apart and change it to 4" and reduce to 2" on the riser out of the trap.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

422 plumber said:


> I had an inspector in Cook County, can't remember what town, flunk me because I branched 2" off the 4" main for a shower. I had to pull everything apart and change it to 4" and reduce to 2" on the riser out of the trap.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


I have a upcoming job that was passed back then... a freakin 4" cast iron drain with 2" shower on slab telescoping into it without seal.. u guess it, been backing up and the gravel was like septic seepage bed .. gonna stinks to high heaven when I take it out.. you bet I'm gonna piped it in with 2" pvc with proper transistion into 4"..


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Here we can run 2" undrground and 3" also. They even allow 1-1/2" for a dry vent if we want. We can take 3" to the street if its less than 6 bath even.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

theplumbinator said:


> Putting the wrong parts into the toilet to make a right is a dis-service to the customer. How about don't be a lazy hack and install the correct parts? I see this in the field way too often (usually on Kohlers). If your going to be a service plumber fix it right, sell them a new better quality toilet, or just do new construction. Leave the service work to the guy that actually understands, the engineer that designed the toilet had something in mind when he came up with the idea for that specific toilet. Most of us curse engineers but when it comes to toilets they know more than we do usually. Its a waste of time to try and re think a toilet tank design. And most times you make it work worse rather than better by retrofitting the wrong parts. Just my .02


Hack?? REALLY?!?! Biggest complaint I hear on this forum about toilets is over engineered. You running an 18 wheeler around to have every part known to man around?? Do you have all 276 kohler flappers known to man on your truck? How about seals for the cylinders in early a/s champions before they switched to yet another large flapper? For that matter, what about the three different tilt actuators? What about the toto flappers? Do you carry both Mansfield style seals for their canisters? How about the old Eljer flapper assembly with the counterbalance on the back. Every truck has limited space. A disservice to my customer would be jacking prices up by either overstocking my truck so I can't find anything or carry two trailers behind it so I can have one of everything, or charge them for time going to the supply house for a stupid adjustable flapper. I'm not talking about using duct tape to seal a toilet to the floor. Have you ever tried putting a standard flapper in a 1.6 and adjusting the water level down? It works. Every time. Most certainly is not hackery!!!!


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## lockeplumbing (Sep 25, 2013)

You don't have to stock everything on your truck. You must be new to plumbing or just not know what your doing. You get the tank number and the brand and go to your local supply house or if they don't have it you order it and fix the toilet when the part comes in. That don't mean go to Lowes or home depot. The oem parts are always the best parts. Sound more like a handyman than a plumber.

Micah Robinson
Locke Plumbing
lockeplumbing.com 865-525-9318


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Letterrip said:


> Hack?? REALLY?!?! Biggest complaint I hear on this forum about toilets is over engineered. You running an 18 wheeler around to have every part known to man around?? Do you have all 276 kohler flappers known to man on your truck? How about seals for the cylinders in early a/s champions before they switched to yet another large flapper? For that matter, what about the three different tilt actuators? What about the toto flappers? Do you carry both Mansfield style seals for their canisters? How about the old Eljer flapper assembly with the counterbalance on the back. Every truck has limited space. A disservice to my customer would be jacking prices up by either overstocking my truck so I can't find anything or carry two trailers behind it so I can have one of everything, or charge them for time going to the supply house for a stupid adjustable flapper. I'm not talking about using duct tape to seal a toilet to the floor. Have you ever tried putting a standard flapper in a 1.6 and adjusting the water level down? It works. Every time. Most certainly is not hackery!!!!


I'll disagree and call it hackery...

1.6 gpf toilets came out about 20 years ago...
If you can't carry a small selection of 1.6 flappers to get by with on most jobs then maybe you should take up painting, appliance installation, and remodulation to go along with your plumbing....

276 Kohler Flappers... Nope! But I've got enough of the ones I commonly see, and enough universals that work with them that I usually don't have to order one... Sometimes I do Kohler sux...

Seals for the early Am Std Champions... Nope! They will be getting a flush valve upgrade! I carry that!

I carry a lot of Toto Flappers & seals! Very popular here! And it really doesn't matter all that much I've got 20 Toto Dealers within a 30 mile radius to pick from...

I have several of both Mansfield seals... Damn what a space killer they are in my semi...

I'll confess you have me on the old Eljer with the counterbalance, I've seen 2 in the last 10 or 15 years so I'm not going to sweat that one...

The only flapper I can say for sure is not on my truck and never was is a Fluidmaster Bullseye....

Bottom Line... No!

I don't put a Standard Flapper in a 1.6 gpf toilet and adjust the water level down... That is hackery and will cause the toilet to have a weak flush...


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Letterrip said:


> Hack?? REALLY?!?! Biggest complaint I hear on this forum about toilets is over engineered. You running an 18 wheeler around to have every part known to man around?? Do you have all 276 kohler flappers known to man on your truck? How about seals for the cylinders in early a/s champions before they switched to yet another large flapper? For that matter, what about the three different tilt actuators? What about the toto flappers? Do you carry both Mansfield style seals for their canisters? How about the old Eljer flapper assembly with the counterbalance on the back. Every truck has limited space. A disservice to my customer would be jacking prices up by either overstocking my truck so I can't find anything or carry two trailers behind it so I can have one of everything, or charge them for time going to the supply house for a stupid adjustable flapper. I'm not talking about using duct tape to seal a toilet to the floor. Have you ever tried putting a standard flapper in a 1.6 and adjusting the water level down? It works. Every time. Most certainly is not hackery!!!!


Yes putting the wrong parts in a toilet certainly is hackery. Unacceptable to me unless whatever you use works flawlessly as the OEM part did. When you have to alter the Douglas valve or flush tower to make something work your wrong. Go to the supply house and get the right part, if they don't have it order it from the manufacturer. If.the manufacturer no longer makes the part sell a new toilet. Or just rig up whatever you have in the truck and know you have just committed hackery.

And yes I have most of those parts in my truck including both toto's approximately 10 of the most common Kohlers including the class 5 and the flush tower gaskets. A full rebuild kit for both 1 piece Realtos newer and older style, American standard champion old and new rings, cadet and cadet 3. Plus many others. Why do I keep all that in my van? Because I do plumbing service for a living.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

Miami Dade county master license certificate of competency 01P000399 earned in 2000. What is your license number?

Micah, you have shown great knowledge in the parts area and are clearly an asset to this forum, but I kindly ask you to tread a little more lightly when calling a licensed master plumber a handyman. 

I'll engage on this conversation only so long as differing opinions are respectfully given.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

At a job. I'll respond to the rest shortly.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Letterrip said:


> Miami Dade county master license certificate of competency 01P000399 earned in 2000. What is your license number?
> 
> Micah, you have shown great knowledge in the parts area and are clearly an asset to this forum, but I kindly ask you to tread a little more lightly when calling a licensed master plumber a handyman.
> 
> I'll engage on this conversation only so long as differing opinions are respectfully given.


Maybe you should research the law before you hang your license number on your knowledge....:whistling2:


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## Gryphon Plumber (Jun 3, 2012)

Letterrip said:


> What adjustable flapper do you carry that you like so much. Only one I ever see here is a fluidmaster bullseye which I personally consider a POS. The vast majority of the piping here is cast iron run at 1/16" per ft as the code allowed back in the 60's and 70's when much of the housing went up. I'm sure that the plumbers installing NEVER would have imagined that their systems would see 1.6 gpf, let alone the current 1.28. I'm in favor of a little extra water to help things along.


I carry a Fluidmaster adjustable flapper. I would be lying if I said I knew if it was a bullseye or not, but it's red with solid plastic hinges & turn dial style. Works great for me, and that's after trying other brands. I can tell you it's one of the more costly flappers, but I don't skimp on parts.


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## Gryphon Plumber (Jun 3, 2012)

Letterrip said:


> Hack?? REALLY?!?! Biggest complaint I hear on this forum about toilets is over engineered. You running an 18 wheeler around to have every part known to man around?? Do you have all 276 kohler flappers known to man on your truck? How about seals for the cylinders in early a/s champions before they switched to yet another large flapper? For that matter, what about the three different tilt actuators? What about the toto flappers? Do you carry both Mansfield style seals for their canisters? How about the old Eljer flapper assembly with the counterbalance on the back. Every truck has limited space. A disservice to my customer would be jacking prices up by either overstocking my truck so I can't find anything or carry two trailers behind it so I can have one of everything, or charge them for time going to the supply house for a stupid adjustable flapper. I'm not talking about using duct tape to seal a toilet to the floor. Have you ever tried putting a standard flapper in a 1.6 and adjusting the water level down? It works. Every time. Most certainly is not hackery!!!!


 I'm going to try to bridge this gap. If you repair a toilet and put your basic flapper set it to the water level line and it double flushes, or doesn't flush right it hackery. If it double flushes and you lower the water level instead of using a different flapper to stop the double flush it's hackery. That water level line is there for a reason. If it's not flushing as well as it should because the flapper isn't staying up long enough, and you leave it that way it's hackery. You don't HAVE to use a TOTO flapper on a TOTO as long as it works proper set at factory settings. Just today I had to make adjustments on two brand new fill valves that another contractor (Probably A Handyman) put in that didn't understand what they were doing. I understand your side of the argument Letterrip, but STRONGLY disagree with your I'll just slap anything in there so I don't have to go to the supply house (Whether you charge for that time or not). My customers don't hire me to just slap it together, and I hope yours didn't hire you for that either. Just keep a couple of adjustable flappers on your truck. Mine work great, I never had a call back on that particular flapper. I can get the exact model name for you if you like.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

I've gotta make me some popcorn for this one...


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## Gryphon Plumber (Jun 3, 2012)

Plumberman said:


> I've gotta make me some popcorn for this one...


Make me a bowl with ranch seasoning.


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## Plumb26 (May 18, 2013)

Letterrip said:


> What adjustable flapper do you carry that you like so much. Only one I ever see here is a fluidmaster bullseye which I personally consider a POS.
> 
> The vast majority of the piping here is cast iron run at 1/16" per ft as the code allowed back in the 60's and 70's when much of the housing went up. I'm sure that the plumbers installing NEVER would have imagined that their systems would see 1.6 gpf, let alone the current 1.28. I'm in favor of a little extra water to help things along.


Pro54 adjustable from fluid master


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## Plumb26 (May 18, 2013)

I also am a flapper hoarder and have whipped my guys into shape. They have a list of flappers that must be on their trucks:
Eljer touch flush, Kohler class 5 and 6, American standard seat disks and all there actuators, toto power gravity and g max, mansfield seals, pro54 and pro55 fluidmaster (fits most standard adjustable and nonadjustable), cadet and champion.
Any toilet part not on truck gets ordered and replaced when in. That rarely happens b/c these are the most common for our area.:thumbsup:


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

Ok, so tell me this. I go to a job and there is a builders grade toilet as per the OP. lets say its a Briggs. I put on my wonderful fluidmaster adjustable flapper. How do I determine if it's flushing properly? Do I pull the toilet and try to measure the water delivered by catching it in a bucket? Do I pull out my stopwatch and time the flush? No. I give it the eyeball test. I observe the flush and compare it to the thousands of other toilets I have worked on. Redwood, By what means do you decide if there is a bunch of calcium in the flush rim? The eyeball test. Plumbinator, i submit the same question to you. What is the measurable outcome that suggests this method is inferior to OEM with the admitted difference that it uses a little more water. I have stated my defense of this already. Am I suggesting that you try to put a standard flapper on a kohler one piece? Of course not. Do I throw a fluidmaster 400a, or a coast fill valve in an old Rochelle and call it a day? Hell no!!! THAT is hackery. I simply don't like the fluidmaster adjustable. If you put a standard flapper on a builders grade toilet, it passes the eyeball test. If I put materials in that I don't have faith in, what would that make me?

Micah, I typically try to use OEM. I try to avoid Lincoln products because I find them to be inferior. I am well versed on locating product numbers and looking up the right parts. But what is the OEM flapper for a 15 year old Eljer toilet? Do you really stock it? If so, then please open a branch in miami. The hyperbole about all the flappers was simply to suggest that it's unrealistic to have every type of OEM flapper at your disposal. I don't like the options I found for adjustable non-OEMs. 

RJ, I have no enemies here. I joined this forum for exactly this type of conversation. I'm thick skinned and can take flaming. I want knowledge in my field. I can butt heads nicely to get it. 

Plumb26, most of those flappers you noted are specialized. Where is the Briggs OEM flapper?

All this said, I have heard a couple vouch for fluidmaster. Perhaps I got a bad batch. Perhaps they have changed. I'm willing to give them a try again. But if I don't like their performance or I find that they deteriorate prematurely (both my original problems with them), I won't use them.


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## Gryphon Plumber (Jun 3, 2012)

Sounds like you have a plan. Never put something in a customer's house that you wouldn't put in your own (Unless it's customer supplied & legal.). So I get your point, but I use them all the time & installed them in my house. I have two builders grade American Standard WCs that would double flush otherwise. These flappers have done well by my customers and myself. Hopefully they will work out for you too.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

I'm impressed. But Tennessee is still a long drive. . When you opening that miami branch?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Letterrip said:


> Redwood, By what means do you decide if there is a bunch of calcium in the flush rim? The eyeball test. Plumbinator, i submit the same question to you.


Well here is what I look at for every toilet I go to that is clogged and every toilet that I rebuild....

Our company requires that I give a 1 week guarantee on a residential toilet auger job against clogging... Damn Right that toilet is going to work!

As for the volume of water, it's not hard with a square tank 1.6 gallons is going to take up about 370 cu in, lets say the tank measures 20" L X 8" W that's 160 sq in, so to deliver 1.6 gallons 370/ 160=2.3125 or the water level in the tank will have to drop 2 5/16" Of course that is on the high side as the fill valve will turn on and deliver an additional amount of water both refilling the tank and through the bowl refill to the top of the overflow tube but you will be in the ballpark...

Rounded tank ends can be figured out too but really I'd fudge the figures a bit and call it good...:laughing:


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Letterrip said:


> Ok, so tell me this. I go to a job and there is a builders grade toilet as per the OP. lets say its a Briggs. I put on my wonderful fluidmaster adjustable flapper. How do I determine if it's flushing properly? Do I pull the toilet and try to measure the water delivered by catching it in a bucket? Do I pull out my stopwatch and time the flush? No. I give it the eyeball test. I observe the flush and compare it to the thousands of other toilets I have worked on. Redwood, By what means do you decide if there is a bunch of calcium in the flush rim? The eyeball test. Plumbinator, i submit the same question to you. What is the measurable outcome that suggests this method is inferior to OEM with the admitted difference that it uses a little more water. I have stated my defense of this already. Am I suggesting that you try to put a standard flapper on a kohler one piece? Of course not. Do I throw a fluidmaster 400a, or a coast fill valve in an old Rochelle and call it a day? Hell no!!! THAT is hackery. I simply don't like the fluidmaster adjustable. If you put a standard flapper on a builders grade toilet, it passes the eyeball test. If I put materials in that I don't have faith in, what would that make me?
> 
> Micah, I typically try to use OEM. I try to avoid Lincoln products because I find them to be inferior. I am well versed on locating product numbers and looking up the right parts. But what is the OEM flapper for a 15 year old Eljer toilet? Do you really stock it? If so, then please open a branch in miami. The hyperbole about all the flappers was simply to suggest that it's unrealistic to have every type of OEM flapper at your disposal. I don't like the options I found for adjustable non-OEMs.
> 
> ...


If the flush rim holes or the jet are calcified I clean them. To figure out if your flapper is adjusted correctly: step 1. set water level to water line.
Step 2. Shut off the stop valve
step 3. Flush the toilet
Step 4. Get your empty one gallon milk jug out of the van and fill it up from the sink.
Step 5. Pour the water into the tank

The water level should be back exactly at the water line. When the toilet tank emptys exactly one gallon per flush your flapper is adjusted properly. The other .6 is already in the bowl. Thats how you properly set up a toilet. 

Step 6. Turn the water back on 
Step 7. (My favorite) get paid!

Still want my Master Plumbers license # ?

For the record I never called you a handyman. Just a lazy toilet repairing plumber. Your a Licensed master short cuts aren't what we do.Take the criticism of your peers and allow it to make you better at what you do. I know I'm far from perfect but I strive to make myself better every day.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

If you feel that having exactly 1.6 gpf is that critical to the function of the toilet, more power to you. I am more concerned with the performance of the toilet in terms of waste removal. I have already stated that I feel 1.6 gpf is too low given old cast iron. I'm such the rebel!! I still don't see where anything has been proven that an adjusted water level in a builders grade 1.6 degrades performance.


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## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

Anyone ever seen a brand new never used (BRIGGS) old type 3.5 gal tank on a fairly new 1.6 elog comfort setting(handicap) bowl The flap can be adjusted anyway you like it and it wont stop up.??Cant tell ya where a set up like this MIGHT be found:furious:


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

retired rooter said:


> Anyone ever seen a brand new never used (BRIGGS) old type 3.5 gal tank on a fairly new 1.6 elog comfort setting(handicap) bowl The flap can be adjusted anyway you like it and it wont stop up.??Cant tell ya where a set up like this MIGHT be found:furious:


When the 1.6 toilets came out. Briggs came out #1 for many years as an affordable well flushing toilet.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

theplumbinator said:


> For the record I never called you a handyman. Just a lazy toilet repairing plumber. Your a Licensed master short cuts aren't what we do.Take the criticism of your peers and allow it to make you better at what you do. I know I'm far from perfect but I strive to make myself better every day.


Just saw the edit. I'm listening. I'm asking someone to PROVE that function is degraded. Stating an opinion is not proof. I've never seen function degraded in my experience.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Letterrip said:


> If you feel that having exactly 1.6 gpf is that critical to the function of the toilet, more power to you. I am more concerned with the performance of the toilet in terms of waste removal. I have already stated that I feel 1.6 gpf is too low given old cast iron. I'm such the rebel!! I still don't see where anything has been proven that an adjusted water level in a builders grade 1.6 degrades performance.


I think you missed something in the discussion that lowering the tank water level does have a detrimental effect on the flushing power of a toilet...

But what would I know about plumbing? I've never installed CPVC either.... :laughing:


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

Because I said so is not proof.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I just sell a new toilet. A complete rebuild isn't much cheaper anyhow.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Letterrip said:


> Because I said so is not proof.


Isn't that the proof you are offering? 

Listen bud... Keep on Hackin...
I could care less what you do...

I know I won't do it...

Your competitors will like the fact that you do it...
Getting new customers that used to be yours that you lost because that toilet just clogs all the time now since you "Fixed it."

I'll just keep on doing what I'm doing, augering a clogged toilet, optimizing the flush the same way I was taught and have been doing it for years, giving the customer a 7 day guarantee that the toilet won't clog again....

And enjoying a callback rate of less the 1 % of all calls which I've also maintained for years...:thumbup:

Good luck to ya... You'll be needing it...

I don't!


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

MTDUNN said:


> How far will said tennis ball go on 1/8" per ft grade? Inside 4" cast iron faucet guy?


And we're not talking tennis balls here either. Lol
Well, this thread sure heated up.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

love2surf927 said:


> And we're not talking tennis balls here either. Lol Well, this thread sure heated up.


Just fix the dam toilet to spec, don't mess with it, might as well replace it. 

And turn a challenger into a glorified cadet? Wtf!!


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

MTDUNN said:


> Just fix the dam toilet to spec, don't mess with it, might as well replace it.
> 
> And turn a challenger into a glorified cadet? Wtf!!


I was agreeing with your comment about the tennis ball, just making the point a tennis ball might roll through cast a little easier than turds and paper and whatever else would. Agreed about the Specs too, not sure about the American standard comments I didn't mention anything about that.


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## Plumb26 (May 18, 2013)

Letterrip said:


> Because I said so is not proof.


If it wasn't important, why would they not have just scaled down the size of the tanks and only had 1.6 galone of water in them? Because the weight of the additional water DOES help force the water into the jets. The only reason you are getting a good flush by setting the tank to 1/2 the water level is because you're using more than 1.6 gallons. Better yet, try it with the early model highline Kohler toilets. Put exactly 1.6 gallons of water in that tank and flush.
See what happens.


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## Gryphon Plumber (Jun 3, 2012)

Redwood said:


> Isn't that the proof you are offering?  Listen bud... Keep on Hackin... I could care less what you do... I know I won't do it... Your competitors will like the fact that you do it... Getting new customers that used to be yours that you lost because that toilet just clogs all the time now since you "Fixed it." I'll just keep on doing what I'm doing, augering a clogged toilet, optimizing the flush the same way I was taught and have been doing it for years, giving the customer a 7 day guarantee that the toilet won't clog again.... And enjoying a callback rate of less the 1 % of all calls which I've also maintained for years...:thumbup: Good luck to ya... You'll be needing it... I don't!


It's funny Redwood we have mildly butted heads a few times, but today we are on exactly the same page of the plumbing gospel. Just goes to show if your in this forum long enough you will butt heads with everyone, and eventually agree with everyone on some things. Letterrip I bet your a better plumber than you are showing in this thread, heck the fact that your a member of this forum speaks in your favor. That said I think the point has been proven as well as can be on a forum that adjusting the water level lower will affect the performance. The fact that if there is any doubt, you decide to error on the side of the easy way out makes me sad for your customers. Some quality plumber in your market should thank you for making him look good. I have a bunch of real licensed plumbers in my market who have the easy way out mentality, and everyday they make me look good.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Letterrip said:


> Just saw the edit. I'm listening. I'm asking someone to PROVE that function is degraded. Stating an opinion is not proof. I've never seen function degraded in my experience.


I don't need to prove that the federal government says its illegal to adjust a toilet made after1994 to flush more than 1.6 gpf. Why do you think we can no longer purchase 3.5, 5, or 7 gpf toilets? The answer is its not legal to do so. That was Red's reference to hanging your license number on a statement that your blatantly admitting to breaking federal law. Honestly I don't care what you do in FL, you don't work for me. I'm cool with whatever you do. But please don't try to justify that bad practices are a great idea. I'm not buying into it.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

love2surf927 said:


> And we're not talking tennis balls here either. Lol
> Well, this thread sure heated up.


I'm not getting heated. I'm having an academic conversation with my peers. You guys have made some progress. I'm considering the arguments. I have looked at the pro45 flapper. It looks decent. Now I have to see who carries it. 

In my mind, this is the purpose of this forum. Professionals exchanging ideas and debating the merits of methods and materials. So we yell a little. Meh.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> I just sell a new toilet. A complete rebuild isn't much cheaper anyhow.


*I have a Kohler Ralphael in my first floor bath it flushes on 1.6 normally but depending on the use somtimes I hold down the handle. The longer flush that results gets rid of the skid-marks the normal 1.6 flush left there! Am I a hack for doing this?*


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> I have a Kohler Ralphael in my first floor bath it flushes on 1.6 normally but depending on the use somtimes I hold down the handle. The longer flush that results gets rid of the skid-marks the normal 1.6 flush left there! Am I a hack for doing this?


Only if there is an unused toilet scrubber next to your Ralphael


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

I keep a couple of bricks in the truck to maintain head pressure.

Is that hackery?


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> I have a Kohler Ralphael in my first floor bath it flushes on 1.6 normally but depending on the use somtimes I hold down the handle. The longer flush that results gets rid of the skid-marks the normal 1.6 flush left there! Am I a hack for doing this?


Not a hack but you may want to go see the Gastrointestinal doctor if that problem persists lol...


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

89plumbum said:


> I keep a couple of bricks in the truck to maintain head pressure.
> 
> Is that hackery?


I'm not even going to entertain this question with an answer. I'm hopeful its a joke or you know Pinky lol...


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

So no pro45's at ferguson, but I did find these way up in the corner. I'll let you know how they work. I've always been a Korky fan, so fingers crossed.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Wow, six pages on how to service a freeking toilet. And you wonder why plumbing bores the crap out of me. Excuse me now while I go take a dump in my back yard. :laughing:


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> I have a Kohler Ralphael in my first floor bath it flushes on 1.6 normally but depending on the use somtimes I hold down the handle. The longer flush that results gets rid of the skid-marks the normal 1.6 flush left there! Am I a hack for doing this?


Why did you quote me on that? I just want to sell toilets...


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

This sounds like a second year apprentice discussion:blink:


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## 3KP (Jun 19, 2008)

*Wow!!!*

Letterrip: I use the same Korky Flapper. Where I was going with this thread was... When I rebuild a Masfield toilet I use Korky flush valves, and every single time the toilet will double flush at the correct water level. So I remove the perfectly new flapper and install the korky flapper that Letterrip posted a picture of. 

In the past I use WB Big Orange flush valves and flapper. I can't recall on if they double flushed with their set up.. I quit using their flush valve due to a employee forgot to trim down the flush valve and some how managed to flood a house. Due to the water ran out of the toilet handle hole. So I simplified things by switching to Korky's since they have the slip joint like extension.(no cutting) I been thinking of going back to the WB since the village idiot is gone and has been for some time now. 

After over hearing the 2 guys in the supply house jabber jaw. It got me wondering what other folks thought and did in this situation. As for myself I take pride in my work and install an adjustable flapper where needed.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

3KP said:


> Letterrip: I use the same Korky Flapper. Where I was going with this thread was... When I rebuild a Masfield toilet I use Korky flush valves, and every single time the toilet will double flush at the correct water level. So I remove the perfectly new flapper and install the korky flapper that Letterrip posted a picture of.
> 
> In the past I use WB Big Orange flush valves and flapper. I can't recall on if they double flushed with their set up.. I quit using their flush valve due to a employee forgot to trim down the flush valve and some how managed to flood a house. Due to the water ran out of the toilet handle hole. So I simplified things by switching to Korky's since they have the slip joint like extension.(no cutting) I been thinking of going back to the WB since the village idiot is gone and has been for some time now.
> 
> After over hearing the 2 guys in the supply house jabber jaw. It got me wondering what other folks thought and did in this situation. As for myself I take pride in my work and install an adjustable flapper where needed.


I'd use Mansfield OEM Parts....
Like this...


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## 3KP (Jun 19, 2008)

I've tried to use the red ring roughly about 10 times and only had 1-2 toilets stop leaking afterwards so instead of wasting time I just drop in a new flush valve, flapper and new handle. To me it's quicker.

If I know it's a Mansfield that is messed up I'll grab a new tank from supply house and swap tanks. It's a speedy rebuild :whistling2:


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

Sorry, I don't do a ton of toilet repair....some, mostly sell customers new ones.

How does this adjustable flapper work exactly. Is it adjustable per kind of toilet or just amount of water.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Damn Calary lost again.... on the adjustable flapper.. there a knob that adjust the 'holding air' inside the blub.. the more air its stay..longer the flapper will stay up... more leakage from blub quicker its close... okay guys, (gals). Kill me softely if I'm wrong..


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

3KP said:


> I've tried to use the red ring roughly about 10 times and only had 1-2 toilets stop leaking afterwards so instead of wasting time I just drop in a new flush valve, flapper and new handle. To me it's quicker.
> 
> If I know it's a Mansfield that is messed up I'll grab a new tank from supply house and swap tanks. It's a speedy rebuild :whistling2:


There is a technique to doing it...:yes:
It's not all that hard once you know what you are doing, and takes about 2 minutes to do it...
I replace them regularly with damn near 100% success...

I know exactly what you are doing wrong if you had that many leakers...
Take a look at the picture showing the cross section of the flush valve and look at the groove the red seal seats in at that link I left...
You aren't getting it in the right groove...
Make sure it is in the right groove and give it a little spin back and forth once it is in place...
You'll find that it won't leak....


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

redbeardplumber said:


> Sorry, I don't do a ton of toilet repair....some, mostly sell customers new ones.
> 
> How does this adjustable flapper work exactly. Is it adjustable per kind of toilet or just amount of water.


There are several types of "adjustable flappers."

The #2004BP pictured earlier in the thread has a float which slides up and down on the chain...

Some like the Fluidmaster Bullseye and the Korky #16BP turn so the hole on the side of the cone on the bottom of the flapper allows air out at a faster or slower rate.

Others use a disc with an orifice that snaps into place in the flapper, various sizes are used and it controls the amount of time the flapper is open....


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

Great stuff....all new to me.....thankyou...good thread


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Redwood said:


> There is a technique to doing it...:yes: It's not all that hard once you know what you are doing, and takes about 2 minutes to do it... I replace them regularly with damn near 100% success... I know exactly what you are doing wrong if you had that many leakers... Take a look at the picture showing the cross section of the flush valve and look at the groove the red seal seats in... You aren't getting it in the right groove... Make sure it is in the right groove and give it a little spin back and forth once it is in place... You'll find that it won't leak....


Yep need to get that ring in the groove and spin it in. Easy peAsy once you do two or 3.


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## 3KP (Jun 19, 2008)

I do get it the groove but never spin it. I will try it and see what happens.


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## Gryphon Plumber (Jun 3, 2012)

3KP said:


> Letterrip: I use the same Korky Flapper. Where I was going with this thread was... When I rebuild a Masfield toilet I use Korky flush valves, and every single time the toilet will double flush at the correct water level. So I remove the perfectly new flapper and install the korky flapper that Letterrip posted a picture of. In the past I use WB Big Orange flush valves and flapper. I can't recall on if they double flushed with their set up.. I quit using their flush valve due to a employee forgot to trim down the flush valve and some how managed to flood a house. Due to the water ran out of the toilet handle hole. So I simplified things by switching to Korky's since they have the slip joint like extension.(no cutting) I been thinking of going back to the WB since the village idiot is gone and has been for some time now. After over hearing the 2 guys in the supply house jabber jaw. It got me wondering what other folks thought and did in this situation. As for myself I take pride in my work and install an adjustable flapper where needed.


Most plumbers don't trim the flush valve. They don't think about the handle hole. You would be surprised if you went back on how many flush valves your employees installed that haven't caused a problem yet.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Gryphon Plumber said:


> Most plumbers don't trim the flush valve. They don't think about the handle hole. You would be surprised if you went back on how many flush valves your employees installed that haven't caused a problem yet.


I knew it right away after customer call us after the handyman replaced the flushvalve three times...laughings..


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