# Well...it works



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

The final job of today was to be a routine drain cleaning. Turns out it was not going to be that simple. The short of it is, the building drain under the slab in the basement is either collapsed or something just as bad, because I could not get the snake through. 

Since it is an old house it had a hole in the floor as a clean out, and that line snaked fine and seemed clear. So to provide temporary drains to the house I put in a temporary line from the stacks to the floor. In the past I would have refused such tom foolery, but I'm not going to leave a family without toilet for a day or two until I can get there and break up the floor, and I already had the stacks cut for access.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

LOL .. What you ran it into the floor drain


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

I'm sure the customer appreciates it. I think you did the right thing. It's only temporary.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> LOL .. What you ran it into the floor drain



Its not really a floor drain but more a 4" access to the drain. I'm not sure why they used to do that, but there are a bunch of homes around here that have clean-outs like that. They would put a lid on it.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

I bet it stays like that for years....:laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Indie said:


> Its not really a floor drain but more a 4" access to the drain. I'm not sure why they used to do that, but there are a bunch of homes around here that have clean-outs like that. They would put a lid on it.


So your say that's a clean out ??? Then why is that condensate drain going in there ...

On another note what's holding up the cast iron pipes above the PVC


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

Your a pretty clever guy Mr Indie


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> So your say that's a clean out ??? Then why is that condensate drain going in there ...
> 
> On another note what's holding up the cast iron pipes above the PVC




Loves to knit-pick:yes:


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

I would have done the same thing Indie. Customer is happy and you will get the job when they/you are ready.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> So your say that's a clean out ??? Then why is that condensate drain going in there ...
> 
> On another note what's holding up the cast iron pipes above the PVC



Somebody made a wooden cover and screwed a/c drain line to it and then set it in place, which is another common move from HVAC installs. 

I strapped the Cast up with a few extra plumbers strap. No way I'm gonna be responsible for the cast crashing down.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Well done...kudos for thinking outside the box :yes:


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Sometimes you gotta be creative to make it work for the customer!


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

no primer?


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

gear junkie said:


> no primer?



In this county we are allowed to use clear.


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

Good job! get the customer going till you can come back..thats thinking like MacGyver! sometimes we got to do that


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Now you can up sell them to a proper condensate pump


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Now you can up sell them to a proper condensate pump


Nah, I'll be busting up the floor and fixing the drain and then running the PVC down.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Airgap said:


> I bet it stays like that for years....:laughing:


Exactly. This is why I won't do repairs like this. Now someone else will come in years from now and be like who the hell did that crap. They will say Indy plumbing and there ya go, instant black eye. If it isn't a code installation, I won't do it period. If its that important the waste being fixed, I will run home and grab the jackhammer and we can start on OT.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Indie said:


> Nah, I'll be busting up the floor and fixing the drain and then running the PVC down.


Exactly how are you going to tie in that condensate drain ?


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Exactly how are you going to tie in that condensate drain ?


When I make the repair on the drain I will put it back the way it was or something similar. If I have to go that far with the repair I'll probably throw a real floor drain in there.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> Exactly. This is why I won't do repairs like this. Now someone else will come in years from now and be like who the hell did that crap. They will say Indy plumbing and there ya go, instant black eye. If it isn't a code installation, I won't do it period. If its that important the waste being fixed, I will run home and grab the jackhammer and we can start on OT.


 







You raise a good point; a temporary repair may become permanent. Indy is taking them at their word (unless he has a signed proposal from customer) that they'll call him back soon to make the repair.


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

That is a valid point and something that you have to make a judgment call on. If you are in a super small market, well then you be that kind of plumber. If you're in the big city, well you adjust accordingly.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Indie said:


> When I make the repair on the drain I will put it back the way it was or something similar. If I have to go that far with the repair I'll probably throw a real floor drain in there.


And a real C.O....so you don't have to cut the stacks next time you need to rod the line :yes:


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

I'm sure Indie charged the hell out of them for the temp but cut back on the price of the fix. A little monetary insurance. 

I know when I ran temp water lines the $$$ was big and it came off the replacement next week. Just to keep things honest.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Indie said:


> In this county we are allowed to use clear.


bad joke on my part...looks like a great temporary fix.


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

I am a bit lost here. Why did ou cut the stack for acess in the first place? Irun into those floor grade cleanouts alot here. Must be an Indiana thing. Also What size cable were you using?


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Update on this job. I'm not a great concrete finisher, but it works. 

There was a huge log of roots in this line. Had to chop them out. Someone had built a box of bricks that transitioned the 4" clay to 6" clay. Never really seen clay inside a house under the slab often, and never have seen a brick box for a transition. Slab was maybe 1" thick and busted super easy. 

Everything in this house was set at an odd angle and maybe putting it back together a PITA.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

You should have red tagged the furnace at the same time ... Against code here to put bricks under furnace


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> You should have red tagged the furnace at the same time ... Against code here to put bricks under furnace


Just under furnaces? Boilers here must have solid blocks under it and I've never heard of furnaces needing that or not allowing??? I will look into it


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

RW Plumbing said:


> Exactly. This is why I won't do repairs like this. Now someone else will come in years from now and be like who the hell did that crap. They will say Indy plumbing and there ya go, instant black eye. If it isn't a code installation, I won't do it period. If its that important the waste being fixed, I will run home and grab the jackhammer and we can start on OT.


Get over yourself. He did what he had to do to keep the customer in business without having to charge the customer OT and in this economy that's a big deal.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

That seems like an odd stub in for the water service. :blink:


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Titletownplumbr said:


> Get over yourself. He did what he had to do to keep the customer in business without having to charge the customer OT and in this economy that's a big deal.


Do you run your own business? If so do you not care about your name or reputation. Guess what chuckles, that's all you have to make money. Almost everyone here will say their number one way to get work is referrals. I will not sacrifice my company name for anyone. All too often, when you make a temporary repair, it's back working so you never get called back for a permanent one. Then your temp repair will fail in 6 mo or a couple years. By then you might be forgotten, and they call someone else. The guy sees what you did and tells the homeowner you're a hack. Now the homeowner is all charged up, and goes around telling everyone you're a scum bag scam artist. 

Sound like a long shot? I've seen it happen before. I will not take that risk. It is what it is, either it goes into OT or it gets fixed the next day. Coming first thing in the morning would t kill anyone either. I was pointing out the added liability for temporary repairs. Stick to doing everything code, or don't do it.


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

RW Plumbing said:


> Do you run your own business? If so do you not care about your name or reputation. Guess what chuckles, that's all you have to make money. Almost everyone here will say their number one way to get work is referrals. I will not sacrifice my company name for anyone. All too often, when you make a temporary repair, it's back working so you never get called back for a permanent one. Then your temp repair will fail in 6 mo or a couple years. By then you might be forgotten, and they call someone else. The guy sees what you did and tells the homeowner you're a hack. Now the homeowner is all charged up, and goes around telling everyone you're a scum bag scam artist.
> 
> Sound like a long shot? I've seen it happen before. I will not take that risk. It is what it is, either it goes into OT or it gets fixed the next day. Coming first thing in the morning would t kill anyone either. I was pointing out the added liability for temporary repairs. Stick to doing everything code, or don't do it.


Like I said, get off your high horse Mr. Paranoid. Indie did good by the customer and had it done properly within a few days and the customer will remember him.

Yes I own my own business and I have been in the business for 28 yrs. and I have lots of repeat customers and referrals.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> Do you run your own business? If so do you not care about your name or reputation. Guess what chuckles, that's all you have to make money. Almost everyone here will say their number one way to get work is referrals. I will not sacrifice my company name for anyone. All too often, when you make a temporary repair, it's back working so you never get called back for a permanent one. Then your temp repair will fail in 6 mo or a couple years. By then you might be forgotten, and they call someone else. The guy sees what you did and tells the homeowner you're a hack. Now the homeowner is all charged up, and goes around telling everyone you're a scum bag scam artist.
> 
> Sound like a long shot? I've seen it happen before. I will not take that risk. It is what it is, either it goes into OT or it gets fixed the next day. Coming first thing in the morning would t kill anyone either. I was pointing out the added liability for temporary repairs. Stick to doing everything code, or don't do it.


That is good for you to draw a line in the sand. I'm sure your business is very successful because you won't do anything less than perfection. Knowing there are plumbers out there like that makes me feel good about my trade, 

Now for myself I'm willing to make accommodations so that people can continue to live while we work out a financial agreement and schedule. 

How you could be a one man shop and be so rigid on stuff like this is beyond my comprehension. It leaves me with a few questions. How do you work it into your schedule, if you already have other work? All customers are important how do you choose which ones to blow off so that you can work in that additional 8 hours? If you do reschedule for another day, what do you have customers do for the evening or days without plumbing in their home? If you do choose to work overtime when do you make time for family? 

I don't actually expect you to answer these, but know these are questions I ask of myself, and that is why I chose to help the customer and myself out.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> You should have red tagged the furnace at the same time ... Against code here to put bricks under furnace


Huh??? Why is that?? I've used bricks on boilers..


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Indie said:


> Update on this job. I'm not a great concrete finisher, but it works.
> 
> There was a huge log of roots in this line. Had to chop them out. Someone had built a box of bricks that transitioned the 4" clay to 6" clay. Never really seen clay inside a house under the slab often, and never have seen a brick box for a transition. Slab was maybe 1" thick and busted super easy.
> 
> Everything in this house was set at an odd angle and maybe putting it back together a PITA.


I've seen many with clay pipes under the basement floor around here in old neighborhood... one more tool for you to buy, round edge concrete finishing tool! Btw, great thinking and job well done!


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Good job ND, remember you cant please the zoners but, pleasing your customers is what pays the bills. :laughing:


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Titletownplumbr said:


> Like I said, get off your high horse Mr. Paranoid. Indie did good by the customer and had it done properly within a few days and the customer will remember him.
> 
> Yes I own my own business and I have been in the business for 28 yrs. and I have lots of repeat customers and referrals.


It isn't being paranoid if I've seen it happen before. I've seen it tank someone's business from the other end. I'm not speaking from a position of superiority, but a position of experience. I've been an expert witness in court testifying against a company for one of those so called temporary repairs that went bad. I felt terrible for the contractor as they were just trying to do them a favor. They made a water repair, it didn't hold in time for them to come back and repair it. It ruined this customers home, and put them out of business.

I will not put myself in a position of liability. When you're sitting in front of that jury and another contractor is explaining standard practices to the jury, and code compliance issues you're gonna wish you followed code the first time. The second you touch something you're holding all liability. If you are willing to risk that, your entire company good for you. But don't confuse my stance of caution with a case of superiority. My company is my means of providing for my family, no ones worth risking that. 

It looks like Indy bypassed a section of underground, and ran a stack into a floor drain. What could go wrong with that you may ask. What if the floor drain backed up before he could get there? What if one of the customers children made it into the basement and got sick from the raw sewage. I'm not trying to pick on Indy,and I believe he knows that. My words are that of caution, not judgement. I understand why he did it. I would want to do the same thing. I just can't be left holding the bag of liability. If one of the customers kids got gravely ill, because of the repair you're done. I've seen it happen from the other side, I decided I wanted no part of it.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> It isn't being paranoid if I've seen it happen before. I've seen it tank someone's business from the other end. I'm not speaking from a position of superiority, but a position of experience. I've been an expert witness in court testifying against a company for one of those so called temporary repairs that went bad. I felt terrible for the contractor as they were just trying to do them a favor. They made a water repair, it didn't hold in time for them to come back and repair it. It ruined this customers home, and put them out of business.
> 
> I will not put myself in a position of liability. When you're sitting in front of that jury and another contractor is explaining standard practices to the jury, and code compliance issues you're gonna wish you followed code the first time. The second you touch something you're holding all liability. If you are willing to risk that, your entire company good for you. But don't confuse my stance of caution with a case of superiority. My company is my means of providing for my family, no ones worth risking that.
> 
> It looks like Indy bypassed a section of underground, and ran a stack into a floor drain. What could go wrong with that you may ask. What if the floor drain backed up before he could get there? What if one of the customers children made it into the basement and got sick from the raw sewage. I'm not trying to pick on Indy,and I believe he knows that. My words are that of caution, not judgement. I understand why he did it. I would want to do the same thing. I just can't be left holding the bag of liability. If one of the customers kids got gravely ill, because of the repair you're done. I've seen it happen from the other side, I decided I wanted no part of it.


Not saying you couldn't make that case, but the hole was open when I got there more so than when I put the pipe into it. All they had was a partial piece of wood blocking it off. My fitting plugged the hole almost completely. 

In a sue happy world nothing you do can protect you. Sure you can plumb to legal standards, but a lawyer can still find a way. 

With your proposed standards it sounds like the best course of action is to rework all plumbing to code, which of course you don't do. 

I appreciate your input since you have served as a actual witness. Know that some temporary repairs are unacceptable in my book, like the ones you mentioned. If there is a risk of flooding, it does not happen.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> Huh??? Why is that?? I've used bricks on boilers..


Has to be a solid piece under they equipment like a slab ... No bricks are allowed in direct contact ...

If the equipment rots it can down if it's only bricks on the corners holding it up


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

Did you do the concrete work yourself? I always sub it out, I afraid to touch it!

Looks about a million times better than what they had before!:thumbsup:


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> Has to be a solid piece under they equipment like a slab ... No bricks are allowed in direct contact ...
> 
> If the equipment rots it can down if it's only bricks on the corners holding it up


If the equipment rots it rots! 

A furnace doesn't weigh a whole lot and four solid bricks or cement blocks will hold for a hundred years 

And a boiler must have blocks at the corners, nothing else comes in contact with the blocks / base so why put one . In case it rots??? 

I sub out a cement slab if the floor is not level otherwise I use cement blocks. Funny thing is if the boiler is in a pit with a sump pump you still must install with blocks, as if when the pump fails and there is flooding it will matter


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> If the equipment rots it rots!
> 
> A furnace doesn't weigh a whole lot and four solid bricks or cement blocks will hold for a hundred years
> 
> ...


So if it rots what do you think is holding it up ..

Maybe the gas lines or electrical ???

Code here is specific ...gas code that is .. You can use a patio slab and have bricks under it ... Just that the surface that the equipment ( boiler or furnace sits on has to be one solid piece ...

Maybe our code is more advanced than yours...


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

If the bottom of the furnace rots then it does not matter what you have under it it will drop until it hits the blower inside. And if that much rotting took place and broke away from the duct well fix it when you replace it and get rid of that leaking humidifier (and don't leave that old needle valve on the water pipe)


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

Nice job Indie. If you use a wet paintbrush to brush fresh concrete into existing ( lightly), it will help the " tie in " look. The edges r hard to get with a trowel, especially if it is not saw cut.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> If the bottom of the furnace rots then it does not matter what you have under it it will drop until it hits the blower inside. And if that much rotting took place and broke away from the duct well fix it when you replace it and get rid of that leaking humidifier (and don't leave that old needle valve on the water pipe)


Hmm ... I know it's hard to understand ... I will put it simpler for you ... 

If a corner rots out ... How's that


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> Hmm ... I know it's hard to understand ... I will put it simpler for you ...
> 
> If a corner rots out ... How's that


I must not be to smart... 
I think it's a non issue if you have blocks at the corners and one whole corner rots out the same size as the block then perhaps when you replace it you might need to repair the duct work, I have never seen or heard of this happening (even with a bad humidifier)


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Uh....This is a plumbing forum, and a plumbing thread. Why are we arguing about support for a furnace or boiler. :laughing:


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Indie said:


> Uh....This is a plumbing forum, and a plumbing thread. Why are we arguing about support for a furnace or boiler. :laughing:


He started lol


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

What size is that floor/hub/condensate drain under the slab? Looks to be 2" by the picture maybe?


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

MarkToo said:


> What size is that floor/hub/condensate drain under the slab? Looks to be 2" by the picture maybe?


Yeah I put in 2". I'm looking towards the future for these folks. Might need to sell them a water conditioner. :laughing:

Seriously chances are they will add other equipment and I wanted to be prepared.


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## bartnc37 (Feb 24, 2009)

How is that f.d. vented ? Here it would have to be 3" to be vented by that stack


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

bartnc37 said:


> How is that f.d. vented ? Here it would have to be 3" to be vented by that stack


No vent per se, except for being tied into the main stack. Don't have to worry about venting a f.d. here to my knowledge.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

bartnc37 said:


> How is that f.d. vented ? Here it would have to be 3" to be vented by that stack


In illiois.. dumb code required 4"..even when there a co nearby.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

In the interest of full disclosure.....

Indie is not the only one that will temp in a less than desirable connection so the customer can have a comfortable poo. Sometimes the end of the day really is the end of the day and you have to come back later.

The final connection was after we burst in the new HDPE to replace the Orangeburg running diagonally under the garage in the photo.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

I understand RW's point and he's right...but I frequently slap a bandaid on leaks and return ASAP to do the permanent fix.

At the end of the day it's about providing the best possible service to the customer...and that service includes avoiding after hours charges when possible.

In the interest of full disclosure I did recently installed three band aids on pinhole leaks on a 3" copper boiler manifold and the customer put off the re-pipe for several months. 

After about four months I was called back because one of the paired boilers was down and discovered the customer had hired someone else to rebuild the manifold.

I was pissed, of course, but the bottom line is I kept the motel hot water on line and when they needed another boiler repair they called for me.

Both points of view are valid, but good customer service and integrity win out in the end IMO...if the customer prefers a bandaid over a shut down and after hours charges I'll note it on my invoice and give it to them and trust them that they'll let me come back and fix it correctly at a more convenient time.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Biz, what's that other elbow in dirt....the neighbor's tie in?


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

johnlewismcleod said:


> I understand RW's point and he's right...but I frequently slap a bandaid on leaks and return the ASAP to do the permanent fix.
> 
> At the end of the day it's about providing the best possible service to the customer...and that service includes avoiding after hours charges when possible.
> 
> ...



For shame.....:laughing:

While it may not be the greatest thing to do, as long as you note it on the invoice at least you have some defense if and when you are questioned. We can talk tough all day long about what we do and tell customers, but at the end it all, they can tell you to take a hike anytime they like, and you are not going to make their purchasing decisions.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

gear junkie said:


> Biz, what's that other elbow in dirt....the neighbor's tie in?


Yeah, neighbor's riser.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Good job on the temp fix and glad you got the repair job too. Everything looks nice but please go practice your concrete finishing skills. LOL :jester: (teasing)

Tip of the day.........when using cheap concrete in a bag buy a few bags of cement to add to it or throw on the top and it will finish easier. Also use a "mag" to bring the cream to the top and finish off with a flat trowell.


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> That seems like an odd stub in for the water service. :blink:


The concrete hasn't eatin up the service yet? Or was it sleeved? That's pretty weird stuff. I didn't know terra cotta went under slabs either.


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