# Vinyl Shower Pan Liners



## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

I have installed a few vinyl shower-pan liners in my career. This has included only 1 or 2 handicap-accessible stalls. My experience with the handicap units has been to install a 1"x whatever as a dam under the liner. This allows the rest of the bathroom floor to be wet-bedded, yet still keeps the shower water from cascading accross the floor. My question is: How does one go about damming a water closet when the entire bathroom is receiving a vinyl liner. The shower will be handicap style. This is a "Korean" style bathroom that my buddy has contracted to do. I'm helping & am very curious. Do ya just put a 1 X strip accross the floor to dam the closet flange penetration, or what? We're installing the liner tomorrow so any input would be greatly appreciated.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

You (or someone else) will have to pitch the floor so that the waste water from the shower flows down the drain for the shower. Like with a gang bathroom that has a row of showers. Each shower compartment can't receive the waste from other showers; the pitch of the floor will accomplish that.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Are you saying pitch the floor under the liner?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

That is what my code requires. Years ago, we could install a shower pan flat and it would be up to the tile man to slope the shower floor. But that was changed. Now the sub-floor has to be pitched towards the drain BEFORE installing the liner. Inspectors here will pull the plug out of the shower drain, and if there are any puddles left, the inspector fails it.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

You have to. 

NJ is enforcing that the liner be pitched to the drain. 

And you better have a conversation with the inspector, so he is aware of whats going on. Doing it like you want to is a code violation. 

And good luck getting that thing watertight. :whistling2:


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

Shower was graded(pitched) above the subfloor but below the pan......


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

I have never once been required to pitch the floor under the pan by the state or city inspectors, here it is indeed up to the tile layers. Who knows that may change at any given time. When it is up to us I guess we'll flow with it.
I noticed you fold the pan down on the door jam, I have always wrapped it around the door door and the threshold. Kind of a pain but with clever slicing it works fine. Wish I could be there for a closer look as I'm always open to better ways.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Without pitch you end up with a nasty swamp between the tiles and the liner....


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Your curb fails. The liner is not extended high enough and you drove a nail right through it......


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

RealLivePlumber said:


> You have to.
> 
> NJ is enforcing that the liner be pitched to the drain.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the insight. Question for you is which section of the code does it violate. Having to pitch the floor underneath the liner seems like it's getting into tile work. It almost seems more prudent to leave that headache to them, and let them deal with all the warranty.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

mccmech said:


> Thanks for the insight. Question for you is which section of the code does it violate. Having to pitch the floor underneath the liner seems like it's getting into tile work. It almost seems more prudent to leave that headache to them, and let them deal with all the warranty.


Florida Plumbing Code 417.5.2 Shower lining. Floors under shower compartments, except where prefabricated receptors have been provided, shall be lined and made water tight utilizing material complying with Sections 417.5.2.1 through 417.5.2.4. Such liners shall turn up on all sides at least 2 inches (51 mm) above the finished threshold level. Liners shall be recessed and fastened to an approved backing so as not to occupy the space required for wall covering, and shall not be nailed or perforated at any point less than 1 inch (25 mm) above the finished threshold. Liners shall be pitched one-fourth unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent slope) and shall be sloped toward the fixture drains and be securely fastened to the waste outlet at the seepage entrance, making a water-tight joint between the liner and the outlet.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Section 417.5.2 2009 IPC Comentary

"Liners shall turn up 2' above _finished_ threshold level"

"Liners shall be pitched one-forth unit vertical in 12 units horizontal(2 percent slope) and shall be sloped toward the fixture drains and shall be securely fastened to the waste outlet at the seepage entrance."


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

I use sand under the pan to create my pitch but I can't tell you how many times I have seen no pitch


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

I get the GC or someone else to slope the slab (or wood if the sub-floor is plywood). I have enough to worry about with plumbing, I don't want to deal with cement and getting into other trades.


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

No offense, but with wrinkles like that in your liner, the tile guy is most likely going to rip the whole thing loose an redo it so he can properly lay tile.

If you don't install the liner just absolutely perfect, your tile guy *will* rip it oit


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

sikxsevn said:


> No offense, but with wrinkles like that in your liner, the tile guy is most likely going to rip the whole thing loose an redo it so he can properly lay tile.
> 
> If you don't install the liner just absolutely perfect, your tile guy *will* rip it oit


I'm not sure who your talking about but mine come out like butter


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> I'm not sure who your talking about but mine come out like butter


Was referring to Michael cooks pictures


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

sikxsevn said:


> Was referring to Michael cooks pictures


Lol that's funny I didn't even look at the pics


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

sikxsevn said:


> No offense, but with wrinkles like that in your liner, the tile guy is most likely going to rip the whole thing loose an redo it so he can properly lay tile.
> 
> If you don't install the liner just absolutely perfect, your tile guy *will* rip it oit


You know another layer of deck mud is going in before they tile right? I agree that the pan should be sloped and free of wrinkles, but the wrinkles have no effect what so ever on how the tile goes in.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

this thread makes me glad I dont install PVC shower pan liners.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

7.10.6 f


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

mccmech said:


> Thanks for the insight. Question for you is which section of the code does it violate. Having to pitch the floor underneath the liner seems like it's getting into tile work. It almost seems more prudent to leave that headache to them, and let them deal with all the warranty.


 I tend to agree,


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Time man puts in a wet bed, sloped to the drain. Plumber installs pan.

Tile man puts another layer of wet bed, then the tile.

Tile man is not legally allowed to install pan.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Theres a bunch of outlaw tilemen here in GA.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Gentlemen ( & Ladies ) PLEASE look at this ;

http://www.schluter.com/index.aspx

Been doing pans since we used sheet lead . Let me just say that the Kerdi method is 100% the BEST i've used and seen !! Water does not go through it , the drain is fantastic , the product is fantastic !! No more worries about the "swamp" that is created between tie and rubber . Pre pitch is fine but let's be realistic ,, weep holes will very shortly be blocked causing water to just sit in pan . Soon enough mold will develop around the edges and can never really be removed . This Kerdi product relieves all that AND REALLY WORKS !! I've done several of these and customers / contractors are very happy ! Really it should be the new standard !! 

My .02


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

Cal said:


> Gentlemen ( & Ladies ) PLEASE look at this ;
> 
> http://www.schluter.com/index.aspx
> 
> ...


Do you use the Kerdi for just the pan or do you waterproof the whole shower? Got any pics you can post?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

cityplumbing said:


> Do you use the Kerdi for just the pan or do you waterproof the whole shower? Got any pics you can post?


 Check this one out built by Will. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f21/shower-construction-12194/


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

RealLivePlumber said:


> 7.10.6 f


Thanks. I actually went & looked it up after I read your post. It`s a new change in the 2011 code. I still ain`t crazy about having to other tradesmen`s craft though. I do like Brooklyn Plumbers idea of sand.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Ok, now that I`ve come to grips with the sloped floor under the liner, how about 2nd part of my question. How can the floor penetration for water closet be made water-tight? Remember, this whole bathroom floor is getting lined.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Cal said:


> Gentlemen ( & Ladies ) PLEASE look at this ;
> 
> http://www.schluter.com/index.aspx
> 
> ...


Kerdi is the cats azz... Not doubt about it! :thumbup:


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

mccmech said:


> Ok, now that I`ve come to grips with the sloped floor under the liner, how about 2nd part of my question. How can the floor penetration for water closet be made water-tight? Remember, this whole bathroom floor is getting lined.


Silicone or putty which ever you perfer.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

easttexasplumb said:


> Silicone or putty which ever you perfer.


No, seriously, I'm curious if there is any fitting currently available that is similar in design to the tile shower strainer, which will allow a water-tight seal of the liner to the toilet penetration? The liner install passed inspection but my buddy didn't fill the whole area of the floor with water since it would leak through the w/c hole. Practically speaking I believe the water should never get to the w/c , given that it's on the other side of the room & allowing for the floor pitch under our liner. But theoretically it could happen, hence my question.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

mccmech said:


> Ok, now that I`ve come to grips with the sloped floor under the liner, how about 2nd part of my question. How can the floor penetration for water closet be made water-tight? Remember, this whole bathroom floor is getting lined.


What if you tucked your vinyl into the floor flange siliconed between the flange and vinyl and used a wax ring with a horn.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

cityplumbing said:


> What if you tucked your vinyl into the floor flange siliconed between the flange and vinyl and used a wax ring with a horn.


They vinyl is on the sub floor and the flange would be flush with the tile


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Set the flange flush with the floor. Run the liner over the flange, and then install a closet flange extender. 

Or, use a 4" closet flange, flush wuth the floor, secure the liner to the flange with a 3" service closet flange, in the 4"


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

The only way to water proof the whole bath room is to apply a liquid membrane over the entire sub floor and water proof around all plumbing stub ups before installing the flange. This will only work if your using 4" for you flange install. If you use 3" pipe for your flanges, then there is no way to really 100% proof it. 

I like Hydro ban or Hydro barrier with stucco mesh to make a water membrane. 

http://www.laticrete.com/dealers/products/waterproofing.aspx


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

mccmech said:


> Ok, now that I`ve come to grips with the sloped floor under the liner, how about 2nd part of my question. How can the floor penetration for water closet be made water-tight? Remember, this whole bathroom floor is getting lined.


Build a 2x4 frame for the toilet to sit up on...liner, tile, no worries...:thumbsup:


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

It's not that hard to water proof the whole bathroom. You just have to use your head. If your on a slab, it's pretty basic. You just apply a watering membrane or install Ditra or Kerdi onto the concrete. On a sub floor install a CBU on the plywood and tape and close all seems with thin-set and stucco mesh. Then you "paint on a membrane" of hydro barrier/hydro ban. The blue stuff in the pictures is hydro barrier.


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## satelliteplumah (Jun 20, 2010)

I personally have done several here in Ma. and never heard of pitching the floor. Now we dont do a lot of slabs so it would be plywood base,my question is on "the swamp" Im not sure why if the tile guys use masonary cement and this is what ive seen, and slope it,then morter and tile,the cement isnt pourus once it hardens as long as it doesnt crack and the edges are tight..well if the water gets through grout and tile the cement will funnell it to the drain so why expect a swamp? also never been questiond by inspectors and never taken one back out. always looking for better ideas thats why im here so fill me in.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

satelliteplumah said:


> I personally have done several here in Ma. and never heard of pitching the floor. Now we dont do a lot of slabs so it would be plywood base,my question is on "the swamp" Im not sure why if the tile guys use masonary cement and this is what ive seen, and slope it,then morter and tile,the cement isnt pourus once it hardens as long as it doesnt crack and the edges are tight..well if the water gets through grout and tile the cement will funnell it to the drain so why expect a swamp? also never been questiond by inspectors and never taken one back out. always looking for better ideas thats why im here so fill me in.


In FL it's part of our inspections. The inspectors look for it. They want the subfloor pitched and your liner installed on top as a precaution If the tile and mortar bed fail and crack you have a pitched liner to carry the water to the drain. If it wasn't pitched the water would just pool up under the liner and mud in theory.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

The water seeps through the grout, as well as the wet bed, to the pvc pan. 

It then drains through the weep holes in the strainer.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

satelliteplumah said:


> I personally have done several here in Ma. and never heard of pitching the floor. Now we dont do a lot of slabs so it would be plywood base,my question is on "the swamp" Im not sure why if the tile guys use masonary cement and this is what ive seen, and slope it,_then morter and tile,the cement isnt pourus once it hardens as long as it doesnt crack and the edges are tight._.well if the water gets through grout and tile the cement will funnell it to the drain so why expect a swamp? also never been questiond by inspectors and never taken one back out. always looking for better ideas thats why im here so fill me in.



You serious? Since when has cement, grout, stone, etc be waterproof? There all porous. There are methods to make them pretty much 100% waterproof. Like using epoxy or urethane grout or using porcelain tile. The deck mud under the tile is never going to be water proof(or dry out completely) which is why I like to use a surface applied membrane like kerdi or hydro ban so the deck mud never gets wet in the first place.


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## satelliteplumah (Jun 20, 2010)

Im not sure why cement doesnt cure were you are? I think it gets pretty hard round here. But im not looking to disagree,just see what others are doin,Ilike the sand idea and never saw the kurdi.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Everyone here should be pitching their vinyl pans sand is cheap and easy, the sand I get comes moist so getting it to stay where you want is easy and clean (think sand castel). Ofcourse a flat waterproof pan won't leak but its about keeping things as dry as we can. With the mention of weep holes clogging I will be sure to drill a few extra in the future. These "extra" steps will insure that you used the best practices for your install.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

satelliteplumah said:


> Im not sure why cement doesnt cure were you are? I think it gets pretty hard round here. But im not looking to disagree,just see what others are doin,Ilike the sand idea and never saw the kurdi.



Have you ever seen wet spot on concrete? Not a puddle, but a spot that is wet. Or how about a slab leak where the carpet gets wet, but the leak is under the slab? If concrete wasn't porous how would the wet ground under the slab transfer to the slab, and get the carpet wet. 

On swimming pools there is a water proofing membrane applied too. Just because something is "hard" doesn't mean it is waterproof.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Set the flange flush with the floor. Run the liner over the flange, and then install a closet flange extender.
> 
> Or, use a 4" closet flange, flush wuth the floor, secure the liner to the flange with a 3" service closet flange, in the 4"



Have you actually done this? You seem very experienced based on your posts so I'd like to pick yer brain from time to time.


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## satelliteplumah (Jun 20, 2010)

dude, relax.and listen for a second, I understand that concrete settles and cracks,gets old and deteriorates,cracks from not being mixed right,all sorts of things make it pourus,what im saying is a fresh poured concrete slab troweled finish and allowed to dry should shed the water twards the drain under the tile and grout , but concrete is not going to let water through without a crack. sidewaks last years in freezng cold northest if thay had water infiltration they would crack every year, if you really want to think about you could put sealer on it, like finished stamped walkways or even countertops have protection ,but the pan should be a safe pan in case of a problem above and not the intended means of water retention. thats how i see it anyway.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

satelliteplumah said:


> dude, relax.and listen for a second, I understand that concrete settles and cracks,gets old and deteriorates,cracks from not being mixed right,all sorts of things make it pourus,what im saying is a fresh poured concrete slab troweled finish and allowed to dry should shed the water twards the drain under the tile and grout , but concrete is not going to let water through without a crack. sidewaks last years in freezng cold northest if thay had water infiltration they would crack every year, if you really want to think about you could put sealer on it, like finished stamped walkways or even countertops have protection ,but the pan should be a safe pan in case of a problem above and not the intended means of water retention. thats how i see it anyway.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

satelliteplumah said:


> dude, relax.and listen for a second, I understand that concrete settles and cracks,gets old and deteriorates,cracks from not being mixed right,all sorts of things make it pourus,what im saying is a fresh poured concrete slab troweled finish and allowed to dry should shed the water twards the drain under the tile and grout , but concrete is not going to let water through without a crack. sidewaks last years in freezng cold northest if thay had water infiltration they would crack every year, if you really want to think about you could put sealer on it, like finished stamped walkways or even countertops have protection ,but the pan should be a safe pan in case of a problem above and not the intended means of water retention. thats how i see it anyway.


I don't know what kinda cement you guys get in Mass...
But down here in CT we don't have "Waterproof" cement.... :laughing:


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Mortar for a wet bed is mixed really dry, and "packed" in. Therefore, it is very porous. 

It is not mixed wet, it DOES NOT have an aggregate in it [to help bind the material.] It is not compacted, floated, then finished, like any concrete slab would be.


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## satelliteplumah (Jun 20, 2010)

Man you guys are harsh,If im wrong so be it and Ill take this advice, I still think most of the watrer sees the drain long before it weeps through tile ,grout and pourus cement,the idea of pitch is so water dosnt puddle so still the pan should see limited use. i guess I know why there only the same 6 posters on this forum at any one time your such a freindly bunch.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

satelliteplumah said:


> Man you guys are harsh,If im wrong so be it and Ill take this advice, I still think most of the watrer sees the drain long before it weeps through tile ,grout and pourus cement,the idea of pitch is so water dosnt puddle so still the pan should see limited use. i guess I know why there only the same 6 posters on this forum at any one time your such a freindly bunch.


I only want to see best practices used especially by a pro so anything I said was out of love 
As for the rest I think it's the same


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

I know that everytime I've torn out a shower, for remodel or something, the mortar above the pan and below the tile is clearly wet. It is porous like a pumice stone so it's gonna hold some water.

So now there are 7 posters.........................kinda like the magnificent 7.
Was that Telly Savalas in that? He was a badazz back in the day!


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## Curbcock (Oct 13, 2011)

Sorry if I missed this earlier in this thread. What are you guys in Florida sealing the pan to the 3 piece strainer with? I've worked for many diff. companies and the most popular seems to be ALEX or poly seam seal. But some liked putty or bull.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

Its pretty basic.. a shower drain has those funny little holes called weep holes the pan( liner) or hot mop needs slope to the weep holes so water can drain. In my area over 99 percent of tiled showers are hot mopped and any hot mopper within 250 miles knows how to build up the sides to create slope. this aint new science though inspectors have been lax in the past on enforcement.
Your problem is unique I think you need a dam of some sort and you must have 1/4 per ft slope that I am sure. once you get ouside the shower there is no reason or need for a liner. You may have to jack hamer out the floor to depress this area for a proper functioning and code approved job


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Just did a handicapped bathroom with roll in shower. What I did was take a wet saw and cut 2 inches deep for a 5 foot wide shower and chipped the floor 2 inches deep at the strainer. This allows a shallow 1 inch pitch into the shower area while building a dam of 1 inch


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

mccmech said:


> I have installed a few vinyl shower-pan liners in my career. This has included only 1 or 2 handicap-accessible stalls. My experience with the handicap units has been to install a 1"x whatever as a dam under the liner. This allows the rest of the bathroom floor to be wet-bedded, yet still keeps the shower water from cascading accross the floor. My question is: How does one go about damming a water closet when the entire bathroom is receiving a vinyl liner. The shower will be handicap style. This is a "Korean" style bathroom that my buddy has contracted to do. I'm helping & am very curious. Do ya just put a 1 X strip accross the floor to dam the closet flange penetration, or what? We're installing the liner tomorrow so any input would be greatly appreciated.


 Re read your post , The shower area you got right on. Im alittle puzzled on the liner over the rest of the area I guess it just traps water under the floor, Dont you have floor drains in there? Asmall damn around w/c flange will insure water doesent leak but where will the water go ? I still think it should grade to a floor drain with no puddles. I cant see any other way of a proper installation. Trapping water under the floor cant be a good way to do it


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## Mr Jay (Nov 10, 2011)

Most plumbing jurisdictions now require the floor under the liner to pitched toward the drain (see the 2009 I.P.C Plumbing Code book page31 417.5.2) for an explanation.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

jeffreyplumber said:


> Re read your post , The shower area you got right on. Im alittle puzzled on the liner over the rest of the area I guess it just traps water under the floor, Dont you have floor drains in there? Asmall damn around w/c flange will insure water doesent leak but where will the water go ? I still think it should grade to a floor drain with no puddles. I cant see any other way of a proper installation. Trapping water under the floor cant be a good way to do it


Appreciate your thoughts. the job actually finished up fine. Di a pitched floor under the liner, per the advice I received on PZ. My buddy somehow made the seal around the w/c stub-up & the liner held water for a rough inspection. The concept of a total room hower floor is pretty wierd to me, however, on final it all looked pretty good. The actual shower area gets a curtain around it so it's not like shower water is spraying all over the room. It was a cool 1st timer and I thank you all for your kind input.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Curbcock said:


> Sorry if I missed this earlier in this thread. What are you guys in Florida sealing the pan to the 3 piece strainer with? I've worked for many diff. companies and the most popular seems to be ALEX or poly seam seal. But some liked putty or bull.


 




100% silicone. 

Bull roofing tar? That sounds too damn messy to be messing with.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

mccmech said:


> Appreciate your thoughts. the job actually finished up fine. Di a pitched floor under the liner, per the advice I received on PZ. My buddy somehow made the seal around the w/c stub-up & the liner held water for a rough inspection. The concept of a total room hower floor is pretty wierd to me, however, on final it all looked pretty good. The actual shower area gets a curtain around it so it's not like shower water is spraying all over the room. It was a cool 1st timer and I thank you all for your kind input.


 Glad to hear the job worked out ! My thoughts are that when a pan is built it should be built the same weather on the ground floor of a slab house or on the second floor of a wood frame house with fancy wood work below.. Therefore if someone has seen the need to request a liner in the bathroom outside the shower ie: toilet room, then a floor drain should be installed with a liner having proper slope toward the drain. Such as in a school or public restroom. The fact that it is located on concrete does not change how the liner is installed.. I mean if you are going to install a liner it should acomplish something ... Its late now but I would inform the general or owner of this for theyre recomendation and an extra for the additional work or just leave the liner out and credit them for deleting it. Any how just my 2 cents


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

...


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