# Whats wrong in this photo?



## CaberTosser

Found this today in a house that already needs a fair bit of work. The rest of the primary loop is similarly '_well engineered' :laughing:_





It helps explain what happened to this cast iron baseboard rad, co-incidentally located on the furthest loop of the system (2nd floor against the outside corner of the house subjected to the prevailing winds):


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## plumbdrum

CaberTosser said:


> Found this today in a house that already needs a fair bit of work. The rest of the primary loop is similarly 'well engineered' :laughing: http://s774.photobucket.com/user/Ca...7-4072-9472-dcba1c9bd34a_zpse544f11b.jpg.html It helps explain what happened to this cast iron baseboard rad, co-incidentally located on the furthest loop of the system (2nd floor against the outside corner of the house subjected to the prevailing winds): http://s774.photobucket.com/user/CaberTosser/media/IMG_1046_zps6ec831fe.jpg.html http://s774.photobucket.com/user/CaberTosser/media/IMG_1044_zpsa2b402aa.jpg.html



Circulator motor in vertical position

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## CaberTosser

plumbdrum said:


> Circulator motor in vertical position
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


 That's the minor issue, what's the major one?


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## plumbdrum

Also the major reduction of pipe size, what is the right angled device? A flow control device?

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## CaberTosser

That right angle device is a Honeywell D146M1040 differential pressure regulator, also known as a pressure bypass regulator. It is the major error, but why?


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## plumbdrum

I'm going to take a guess here, but circulator on wrong side? I've personally have never installed one. Wouldn't a boiler bypass do the same ?

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## plumbdrum

So basically I think it's in the wrong location. Should it be piped between supply and return piping

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## CaberTosser

Think of the definition of 'bypass', it insinuates that there is more than one pathway. A pressure bypass regulator is intended to open up and allow continued flow when the heating systems zone valves close. This example isn't installed as a bypass, all it does is restrict flow at the main boiler return. The primary loop is piped equally poorly, but with the boilers & chimneys and such blocking the view, there was no way to provide a decent photo of that particular circus.


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## plumbdrum

Thanks for clearing it up

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## Leach713

I don't know not familiar with this kind of plumbing


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## rjbphd

Leach713 said:


> I don't know not familiar with this kind of plumbing


Its not plumbing! Its bydronioc heating!.. improper piping to that radiator cause it to freeze..


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## plumbdrum

I'm used to using a simple temperature bypass to temper the return water back to the boiler so the boiler doesn't condense.

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## rjbphd

plumbdrum said:


> I'm used to using a simple temperature bypass to temper the return water back to the boiler so the boiler doesn't condense.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Bypass from where to where?? I've seen a lot of boiler fooked up with that..


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## Leach713

rjbphd said:


> Its not plumbing! Its bydronioc heating!.. improper piping to that radiator cause it to freeze..



So how would you fix it?


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## rjbphd

Leach713 said:


> So how would you fix it?


Pipe it correctly!...


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## Leach713

rjbphd said:


> Pipe it correctly!...



Detail please


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## rjbphd

Leach713 said:


> Detail please


 Hard to say without seeing the job...


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## CaberTosser

The simplest way to describe piping it correctly would be to pipe the various return lines to a header which goes to the intake side of the circulator, then to pipe in an intentional short-circuit from the supply outlet back to the return side of the circulator with the pressure bypass regulator incorporated into it. The regulator would then have to be adjusted to suit the system so that it is fully closed when all of the zones are open.


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## GAN

What the heck is the garden type hos against the wall in the background??


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## CaberTosser

GAN said:


> What the heck is the garden type hos against the wall in the background??


That's mine for draining the system to remove and temporarily bypass the split rad.


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## Plumbworker

that moron is trying to pump into a differential pressure by-pass... lol classic believe it or not thats not the first time i've seen that..


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## CaberTosser

Plumbworker said:


> that moron is trying to pump into a differential pressure by-pass... lol classic believe it or not thats not the first time i've seen that..


Actually that regulator is on the return side of the circulator, where the restriction it provides is more better-er :blink:


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## CaberTosser

Here's a system schematic of the existing piping, lines labelled with a question mark are undetermined as supplies or returns. Frankly with the 'quality' piping in there I won't even be trusting that which is labelled and will independently confirm every lines purpose & path.

The arrows indicating flow direction in some spots are contradictory, which is simply my drawing what is represented on the piping in felt pen, I am aware that the circulator dictates the actual flow direction and arrows drawn might well be the opposite of whats actually happening. Some heating loops get no flow at all, and I'm sure it is because of them being tied into the header adjacent one another with no pressure differential across them. The boilers were probably installed in 2005 and the house would have had horrible heating ever since. Normally a homeowner would have noticed and had it fixed soon after, but this affluent gentleman has numerous homes worldwide and spends relatively little time at this one to pick up on its shortcomings.


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## rjbphd

CaberTosser said:


> Here's a system schematic of the existing piping, lines labelled with a question mark are undetermined as supplies or returns. Frankly with the 'quality' piping in there I won't even be trusting that which is labelled and will independently confirm every lines purpose & path.
> 
> The arrows indicating flow direction in some spots are contradictory, which is simply my drawing what is represented on the piping in felt pen, I am aware that the circulator dictates the actual flow direction and arrows drawn might well be the opposite of whats actually happening. Some heating loops get no flow at all, and I'm sure it is because of them being tied into the header adjacent one another with no pressure differential across them. The boilers were probably installed in 2005 and the house would have had horrible heating ever since. Normally a homeowner would have noticed and had it fixed soon after, but this affluent gentleman has numerous homes worldwide and spends relatively little time at this one to pick up on its shortcomings.
> 
> http://s774.photobucket.com/user/CaberTosser/media/DurhamAve_zps42bd6fc5.jpg.html


I puked looking at that drawing!


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## CaberTosser

rjbphd said:


> I puked looking at that drawing!


Hopefully more because of the piping than due to my drafting 'skills' :laughing:


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## CaberTosser

Bumping this one, based on some recent communication it looks like this year the client might want to ante up and fix the system. Most people wouldn't have put up with the frigid temperatures that some of the rooms in the house have experienced for quite a few years now, but this owner is a very wealthy globetrotter with multiple homes worldwide; he's usually somewhere balmy playing golf when the mercury plummets. I think this home only gets about 2-6 weeks of use annually. This place is interesting in that you don't tend to see many houses with pneumatic heating controls (originally put in during the 1950's reno/addition)


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## paultheplumber1

CaberTosser said:


> The simplest way to describe piping it correctly would be to pipe the various return lines to a header which goes to the intake side of the circulator, then to pipe in an intentional short-circuit from the supply outlet back to the return side of the circulator with the pressure bypass regulator incorporated into it. The regulator would then have to be adjusted to suit the system so that it is fully closed when all of the zones are open.


Isn't that called a hartford loop?


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## rwh

No its not a Hartford loop.


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## serviceman12

Your still a nerd


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