# 1.4



## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

Another residential repipe. This one was cool as the home owner showed me 2 estimate quotes from local competitor's. I love when I am the highest priced and still get the job. Which snowballed onto the 1st floor kitchen sink, bathroom sink and the dishwasher. There is nothing like an additional $2000 at the end of the day.


----------



## TXPlumbBob (Dec 13, 2013)

Why the 4 banded clamps?


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Really stretching the W/M drain hose a bit there, huh?


----------



## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Tommy plumber said:


> Really stretching the W/M drain hose a bit there, huh?


Don't worry, the zip tie will never fail and let it pop out and flood the basement


----------



## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Tommy plumber said:


> Really stretching the W/M drain hose a bit there, huh?


That's to get a spiff from his appliance repair guy when he gets to install a new washer pump.:yes::laughing:

I've replaced cast flanges, and a section of 5" cast. Beyond that... cast iron work is too expensive and costly in every day use here unless required by code.


----------



## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

We use CI a lot because people with money don't like to hear plumbing noises. No big deal. We also use 80psi couplings on occasions. The ones we use (Clamp ALL) only have two bands which makes for a quicker install.


----------



## ace4548 (Feb 10, 2015)

See hear Clamp Alls are the 4 banded clamps.. No Hub bands are the 2... We always use the 4 banded or more on storm.. 2 band on DWV. We occasionally use the 4band for transition from PVC underground, to CI... Rather then the adapter.
When you do commercial, and it's a plenum cieling, we are required to use CI for fire rating. So another reason besides noise reduction.


----------



## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

See hear Clamp Alls are the 4 banded clamps.. No Hub bands are the 2



I think not.

http://www.normaamericasds.com/brand/clamp-all


----------



## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

I do cast because it is easier. If anything needs to be serviced I can remove and reinstall any piece. It is a "husky" clamp. In the townships around here you can put no hub with huskies in the ground. And definatlly above ground also. When I do a job like this which typically run $4700. It get done in one day with out a drop of glue any where. Defiantly a superior material compared to pvc. And put together extremely sturdy thanks to proper bracing and the "husky" clamps.


----------



## ace4548 (Feb 10, 2015)

If you put up enough hangers , and in the right spots cast isn't bad.. But 15' up in the air, using a step ladder.. Not Fun.

Plumbus my mind is blown. Since the start of my apprenticeship, every plumber I have worked for has called the 4 banded clamps, clamp alls. And the 2 banded no hub. I worked for a few different shops, and hall guys here, all of them call the 4 banded clamp alls. Im pretty sure the foreman even call Ferguson, and order clamp alls and the heavy duty couplings show up.


----------



## Eddy k (Jan 30, 2015)

If they go on no hub pipe they're all no hub bands 2 band or 4 band.


----------



## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

jnohs said:


> I do cast because it is easier. Defiantly a superior material compared to pvc.


Not sure I agree with these statements. Depends on the application. Certain chemicals will eat up cast waaaay faster then PVC.


----------



## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Plumbus said:


> See hear Clamp Alls are the 4 banded clamps.. No Hub bands are the 2
> 
> I think not.
> 
> http://www.normaamericasds.com/brand/clamp-all


We always referred to them as "no hub couplings" period which denotes the type of pipe your connecting to (hub less cast iron). I believe "Clamp Alls" ae just a specific brand.

https://www.fernco.com/plumbing/shielded-couplings/no-hub-couplings

Cast iron can fail with sewer gas also. Hate to see how many sections of vertical and horizontal cast I've replaced that has just rotted out.

As far as for fire code. There are approved wraps for PVC plenum installation like. >>> https://www.unifrax.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Form-C-1433-FyreWrap-Plenum-2-15.pdf


----------



## ace4548 (Feb 10, 2015)

Yeah I see now, clamp alls are a brand.. When they are referred a certain way since the start of your apprenticeship, that's what you think they are called.

Did a job about a year ago. Somehow it got past engineers and my foreman that it was a plenum cieling... Installed PVC overhead drains. It cost more the wrap the PVC, then it would have to run the whole thing in cast.. Not just material cost, but also added labor.


----------



## Eddy k (Jan 30, 2015)

Did engineers draw in a piped return and change their mind or was it mostly your foremans miss, that is one of the first things I look at while bidding.


----------



## ace4548 (Feb 10, 2015)

It was a PM miss.. According to me foreman, the PM ordered everything.. All he did was call for when we needed the pipe. It was a real big job, a semi came once a week with more material. It was specd case too. All I know is it was a big fiasco. Good learning experience for me though lol


----------



## ace4548 (Feb 10, 2015)

*specd cast


----------



## TXPlumbBob (Dec 13, 2013)

In our area if we need a heavy duty 4 banded clamp no hub clamp we order a HD 4 banded no hub clamp. 

To me, the extra cost of material and labor that is also outside the manufacturers recommend installation instructions is uncalled for. I do not agree it makes a better job, just a more costly job and cuts into profits.


----------



## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

high jacked


----------



## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

jnohs said:


> high jacked


Not really. Talking about your materials. Nice looking work IMHO, but looks labor intensive and costly for material over pvc, but if your customers are willing to pay for it, more power to ya brother!

What do you use to snap your cast?


----------



## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

ace4548 said:


> If you put up enough hangers , and in the right spots cast isn't bad.. But 15' up in the air, using a step ladder.. Not Fun.
> 
> Plumbus my mind is blown. Since the start of my apprenticeship, every plumber I have worked for has called the 4 banded clamps, clamp alls. And the 2 banded no hub. I worked for a few different shops, and hall guys here, all of them call the 4 banded clamp alls. Im pretty sure the foreman even call Ferguson, and order clamp alls and the heavy duty couplings show up.


The association of branded names with generic descriptions is a human habit and crosses all product lines.
In my area, 4 banded couples are called "Husky" couplings. Husky, as you know, is Anaco's brand of such.


----------



## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Different piping materials have characteristics specific to them. A plumber's knowledge and experience dictate which to be used in any specific situation. Our knowledge of this and other trade related subjects is what separates us from common laborers. That said, I don't wish to denegrate common laborers. We are specialists, as are electricians and HVAC workers. We may have skills that we share with others, but it's our special knowledge that makes our daily break as we protect the health of the nation.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Nobody here notice the improperly installed AAV?? 

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


----------



## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Nobody here notice the improperly installed AAV??
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


Of course our State doesn't allow them. Hard to figure why others still do. You can call it a possible basement shower........


----------



## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

GAN said:


> Of course our State doesn't allow them. Hard to figure why others still do. You can call it a possible basement shower........


Below ground level they have to be checked. They need to be above flood, but lots of times that's just not possible. I can tell you that not one time out of thousands of tubs and sinks with an AAV leaked when backed up above it. Not saying it can't happen, I've seen AAV's leak air, but not water.

I prefer revent. But cost wise for the HO who wants a remodel or needs a repair it can save them thousands!


----------



## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

Why is the an improperly installed Ava...? I think maybe your jumping the gun plz explain your observation. Rather then just say something is wrong...?


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

jnohs said:


> Why is the an improperly installed Ava...? I think maybe your jumping the gun plz explain your observation. Rather then just say something is wrong...?


Read the manufacturer installation instructions 

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

It's AAV.. not ava..

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


----------



## CT-18 (Jun 27, 2016)

Is the AAV not supposed to be above the flood level of the fixture it is serving. I know we did a parking garage years ago and had to get special approval to use them where they were not above the flood level.


----------



## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

OpenSights said:


> Below ground level they have to be checked. They need to be above flood, but lots of times that's just not possible. I can tell you that not one time out of thousands of tubs and sinks with an AAV leaked when backed up above it. Not saying it can't happen, I've seen AAV's leak air, but not water.
> 
> I prefer revent. But cost wise for the HO who wants a remodel or needs a repair it can save them thousands!



The ones I have seen in older trailers have leaked air and have midges flying around them, That's the key, it's just a matter of time before any mechanical device fails.


----------



## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

I think you are not seeing something. Non of the Ava's are above flood rim level. 1 is serving the washing machine and 1 is serving a tub.


----------



## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

Frighten spell check got me twice. AAV's


----------



## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

You talked your way into replacing the kitchen sink, dishwasher and bathroom sink but you couldn't talk them into opening a wall upstairs and dropping a vent to the basement. Most people who brag about still getting the job despite the higher price is because they are better plumbers not just the material that they use


----------



## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

They are called no hub couplings and Husky couplings here. But not underground, MG couplings there.


----------



## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

So the AAV. Is allowed under code or not. It is. On Long Island here the practice is 4 inches above the trap in a serviceable location. Both of them fall in the catagory. Even if I ran a vent for the stub it would have to make a horizontal offset before rising 54 inches and be incorrect there also. So no matter what some code some where is gonna fall short. Unless I do it this way. Huh look at that the way I did it is exactly how I did it amazing.


----------



## CT-18 (Jun 27, 2016)

I don't really care what you do with the AAV's. I am just saying I would need the ok from inspector to put them like you did and not above the flood level. Seems like you are very proud of yourself, so you post pictures to stroke your ego.


----------



## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

jnohs said:


> So the AAV. Is allowed under code or not. It is. On Long Island here the practice is 4 inches above the trap in a serviceable location. Both of them fall in the catagory. Even if I ran a vent for the stub it would have to make a horizontal offset before rising 54 inches and be incorrect there also. So no matter what some code some where is gonna fall short. Unless I do it this way. Huh look at that the way I did it is exactly how I did it amazing.


Both pipes with the cheater vents (aav's) look like they pass right by a wall above that already has plumbing in it. So once again I think that you are higher priced because of material not skill


----------



## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

All Pipes applicable Pipes that can accept an aav. The use there of, compared to VTR. If correctly installed doesn't make it better it just makes it more expensive to complete. Hence the complete contrapositive of what you are saying. Lower COGS with proper pricing with correctly installed plumbing makes it all a cohesive approach. And you said... not me, the You think I am higher priced because of materials not skills. What makes me higher priced is that I charge more for my services. I like being the higher priced plumber that's still gets the job. Weather or not what some other plumber is going to do doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that what ever I install it is done so correctly and nothing to do with what you think should have been done based on accepting 1 code over another. I.E. AAV OR VTR. Both are correct where the code says it is correct. 
Are they cheater vents or are they AAV.? Because if they are AAV then they are code. And you running the vents up would have been a waste of time and money. So there is a beat the competition lesson for you. That 1 is for free . Even if you don't understand it is ok. Some one will pick up on it.


----------



## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

CT-18 said:


> I don't really care what you do with the AAV's. I am just saying I would need the ok from inspector to put them like you did and not above the flood level. Seems like you are very proud of yourself, so you post pictures to stroke your ego.


Our inspectors in Lansing would let the placement fly. Above flood when possible, but sometimes not possible. Lansing, thanks to Virge, our permits have skyrocketed in cost. Not only that, when our plumbing inspector inspects he looks for the stickers for other trades. 

Working in the city of Lansing is getting stupid if you need to pull a permit. My Master, who is close to retirement, is looking for a way out. I can't blame him for that. As much as he hurts every day he needs to be done.


----------



## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

Yes it is pride. I thought this was a forum to discuss and post plumbing topics. Some how me posting a picture of my work is stoking my ego. Did you know that every time some points a finger at some one there are three pointing right back.


----------



## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

https://goo.gl/photos/TDDJhinyQQdmH9KK9


----------



## HonestPlumb (Jan 25, 2015)

jnohs said:


> All Pipes applicable Pipes that can accept an aav. The use there of, compared to VTR. If correctly installed doesn't make it better it just makes it more expensive to complete. Hence the complete contrapositive of what you are saying. Lower COGS with proper pricing with correctly installed plumbing makes it all a cohesive approach. And you said... not me, the You think I am higher priced because of materials not skills. What makes me higher priced is that I charge more for my services. I like being the higher priced plumber that's still gets the job. Weather or not what some other plumber is going to do doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that what ever I install it is done so correctly and nothing to do with what you think should have been done based on accepting 1 code over another. I.E. AAV OR VTR. Both are correct where the code says it is correct.
> Are they cheater vents or are they AAV.? Because if they are AAV then they are code. And you running the vents up would have been a waste of time and money. So there is a beat the competition lesson for you. That 1 is for free . Even if you don't understand it is ok. Some one will pick up on it.



I believe the statement about doing quality work was mentioned, if so why would you leave the old boiler drains for the washing machine H + C 
hoses ?
If not a Watts #2, then at least ball valve boiler drains.


----------



## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

HonestPlumb said:


> I believe the statement about doing quality work was mentioned, if so why would you leave the old boiler drains for the washing machine H + C
> hoses ?
> If not a Watts #2, then at least ball valve boiler drains.


Because it was a drain waste job. They can pay me and call me when it is time to do them. While I am at it why didn't put in a new boiler while I was there.


----------



## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

I always give my customers a free inspection if they want, recommendations, and I'm honest about it. "I don't really like what I see here, but it could last ten years or ten days. It's your call. Fix it now or have a nightmare down the road."

I don't push up charges, just suggest. I'm not sure, but at least out here honesty is where my advertising money goes. When your customers trust you, they will not only call you again, but refer you to everyone. Repeat and referral, only way to stay somewhat not too busy.


----------



## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

So where in my post does it say I did not do that....?


----------



## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

jnohs said:


> So where in my post does it say I did not do that....?


Never said you don't do that. Just explaining the way I treat my customers. I give suggestions and let them decide. We just had to go look at a Maxx shower pan that a HO bought and we installed two years ago. Big old crack in it, brand new pan in his garage. Asked the customer why he wanted the same garbage installed just to have another failure in a couple of years. He decided to do it right this time.


----------

