# Tankless advice...which one?



## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

So I've got a church remodel. They want a tankless installed in the attic, no big deal, plenty of room and easy access right next to attic door. Not much actual heavy use...2 lavs, 3comp sink with pot filler and handwash sink. 

Don't do much tankless as I live in the land of eternal heat. What would be the best/ least finicky unit for this application. Vent can go straight up 3' ish to roof. Condensing, non condensing blah blah! Was thinking Navien or rennai! But whatever. Muchas gracias!


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## Hillside (Jan 22, 2010)

Eternal?? ..........too soon? Lol


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

Hillside said:


> Eternal?? ..........too soon? Lol


Haha! You win!


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## BOBBYTUCSON (Feb 8, 2013)

Eternal hahaha. But honestly , im really liking the noritz ez series right now. Give it a run.


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## wookie (Dec 16, 2008)

I'm still a fan of Bosch PRO series. Bradford White offers a tankless, rebranded Bosch. Don't believe BW would offer junk IMHO.


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## wharfrat (Nov 1, 2014)

I like Rinnai. Have not had any problems yet...


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

I installed a Rinnai RU98i condensing unit for my own home and it seems to work okay. It also vents straight up through the roof using their concentric vent kit. Is it a wood roof or metal?


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

plumberkc said:


> I installed a Rinnai RU98i condensing unit for my own home and it seems to work okay. It also vents straight up through the roof using their concentric vent kit. Is it a wood roof or metal?


Wood roof.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I know you probably wont do it or even suggest it to them but 
sometimes it makes me wonder... 

for all the trouble involved, 
if you have the room, why would you not just install a simple 50 gallon
gas water heater in a pan with a drain and double wall vent out the roof.....??? 

Its Probably 1/3 the price ....so would it make you look like a hero if you were suggest it or are they simply 100% hell bent on a tankless???.


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## Hillside (Jan 22, 2010)

Installed a few of these lately, pretty basic setup on 1/2" gas

http://www.noritz.com/eztr/


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> I know you probably wont do it or even suggest it to them but
> sometimes it makes me wonder...
> 
> for all the trouble involved,
> ...


Yea! I originally bid the job for a tank unit just on the outside wall of the kitchen as it would be perfect. Buuuut, they insisted on a tankless unit in the attic above the kitchen. Price ain't an issue...well kinda...not really! But I quoted the job high for all the B.S. I knew I would have to deal with so its there. It's a pitched roof and the only large area big enough for a tank may now be be taken up by the new commercial range hood and new duct work for the bigger HVAC duct work, so I may find my vertical work space dwindled down to like 40"-48". Ill find out later this week as I start cutting the slab tomorrow for waste so not even gonna be ready for heater for 2 weeks.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Navian Tankless


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> Yea! I originally bid the job for a tank unit just on the outside wall of the kitchen as it would be perfect. Buuuut, they insisted on a tankless unit in the attic above the kitchen. Price ain't an issue...well kinda...not really! But I quoted the job high for all the B.S. I knew I would have to deal with so its there. It's a pitched roof and the only large area big enough for a tank may now be be taken up by the new commercial range hood and new duct work for the bigger HVAC duct work, so I may find my vertical work space dwindled down to like 40"-48". Ill find out later this week as I start cutting the slab tomorrow for waste so not even gonna be ready for heater for 2 weeks.



I am not saying anything negative here, but if I were you I would bid that tankless real high and hand them the estimate for this NOW...so they can pass the collection plate before you get too far along with this job... 

if you dont get all that settled and nailed down on a contract, they will probably expect you to donate that work to jesus.... 

IF you bid it high enough, you can always come down on the price when its all over, so they can save some souls with the discount you give them on it.....:yes::yes:

I have never had a good experience with any church I have worked for , it did not matter which denomination it was either.

just saying that all the BS has just begun, fasten your seat belt cause
its probably gonna get bumpy before its all over


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> I am not saying anything negative here, but if I were you I would bid that tankless real high and hand them the estimate for this NOW...so they can pass the collection plate before you get too far along with this job...
> 
> if you dont get all that settled and nailed down on a contract, they will probably expect you to donate that work to jesus....
> 
> ...


Yur preachin' to the choir my friend! :laughing: get it, haha! I bid this job "out of the ballpark" so too speak. Who has ever had a good experience with religious institution projects? Believe me, my price was so high I'm pretty sure someone shat their pants, however, our ability to meet their deadline plus their inability to know what they wanted (they didnt even know what kind of kitchen sink they wanted, so i basically bid the job for a whole commercial style kitchen with 3 comp sink, sprayer unit with pot filler, 2" copper waste into floor sinks...which is what they decided on) was what landed me the job. Long story short...no change orders on this job...whether a tankless or a 100 gallon commercial tank...it's in the bid and ill even come out Way Way on top going with a $1,500 tankless unit. They even asked me..."if we don't go with this or this, how much will you take off the bid!" My response, "if I underbid this or this, how much can I add on the change order?"...crickets. 

Installing a tankless in the attic is actually not a big deal...in fact...it'll be EZ-PZ! My primary question merely related to which unit would be the less finicky. I've mostly installed Tekagi and rennai, however, I haven't installed a tankless in over 4 years, so not very sure how performance has changed. Plus not sure of condensing or non-condensing. As stated before, it's a standard wood & shingle pitched roof and depending on where it actually goes should be no more than 3' of vent straight up. So can go with double wall stainless vent or PVC.

I just re-read yur previous comment mark and perhaps I created a little misunderstanding. Basically I presented two bids. The first one was kinda a feeler based on hand drawn plans and a tank water heater and basic kitchen with granite type sink and standard kitchen faucet. Then everything changed (tankless in attic, commercial kitchen with 3 comp sink and handwash sink, floor sinks and floor drains, commercial stove and range blah, blah, blah! So in essence no need to present an estimate or change order or get all the details out of the way it's all been figured out and it's worse case scenario.


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## markcuban (Mar 12, 2016)

Bosch products are really good and efficient to use, especially if we talk about the commercial purposes.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

markcuban said:


> Bosch products are really good and efficient to use, especially if we talk about the commercial purposes.


My take on this post: 

Bosch has hired a reputation management firm that has subcontracted foreign workers to post on plumbing forums, promoting their products.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

If you goto you tube there are many anti bosch videos for their tankless heaters..I have had good luck so far with Takagi units...


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

markcuban said:


> Bosch products are really good and efficient to use, especially if we talk about the commercial purposes.


heres another numb nut spammer...guess you work for bosch sales....


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Intellahot is by far the best one we have installed yet.


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## srloren (Nov 19, 2014)

*Tankless Not*



Master Mark said:


> I know you probably wont do it or even suggest it to them but
> sometimes it makes me wonder...
> 
> for all the trouble involved,
> ...


I agree with you 100% Mark...No tankless for me, .but than I agree with Sam Colt too...


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## The Plumber Man (Sep 27, 2015)

Noritz is all we use. They seem solid but i hate tankless. Give me a 50 gal gas all day long


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## truckman5000 (Jul 14, 2013)

You have problems with the tank less after some time in a commercial kitchen. Recommend a storage tank with them...The on off with water all day burns out the heat exchanger. Depending on use...Go with a 50 gallon power vented.

The only w/h i do is the bosh


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I would put in at least 2 of them if possible so if one fails they still have hot water. It is a church so the kitchen is probably rarely used and when it is its way more kitchen than they probably ever need. I like Rinnai units but the Navians seem nice too. From a service standpoint Navians probably better than Rinnai if the heat exchanger ever needs replaced. Bradford used to be a rebranded Rinnai. Not sure if they changed or not.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

The Plumber Man said:


> Noritz is all we use. They seem solid but i hate tankless. Give me a 50 gal gas all day long


We've switched to Navien, customers are happy and I make good money. Hard to beat that combination. 

Family was in town recently, my sister in law was showering, then my son jumped in his shower at the same time. Do I wait until they're done? Nah, I have a tankless. I turn on both shower heads scorching hot and showered as long as I wanted to. Three showers running at the same time. I do not understand why plumbers don't like tankless.


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## The Plumber Man (Sep 27, 2015)

I almost pulled a takagi (think i spelled it right) installed in 2007 then i checked the reset and it started right up. Had a bad storm and i guess a surge kicked it.. its still going strong,never been serviced...


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## kwikplumbing (May 31, 2016)

Rinnai would be fine, you won't get any problem with it.


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## srloren (Nov 19, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> I know you probably wont do it or even suggest it to them but
> sometimes it makes me wonder...
> 
> for all the trouble involved,
> ...


Master Mark, I agree with you totally. Not to mention the required annual maintenance, sometimes every 6 months, depending on the quality of your water. Just too expensive for me to consider recommending these tankless water heaters.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

srloren said:


> Master Mark, I agree with you totally. Not to mention the required annual maintenance, sometimes every 6 months, depending on the quality of your water. Just too expensive for me to consider recommending these tankless water heaters.


We offer annual maintenance to customers who purchased a tankless, even reminding them every year or 2. Some have their units serviced, some don't. All are still working fine so 'required' isn't an accurate comment. I have repeat customers with 10-15 yr old units that have never been serviced and they are still working fine.

Then add in the brands that have a stainless heat exchanger and the 'required' maintenance becomes even less of an issue.

Keep installing 50 gal tanks only, we'll offer a tankless if it's appropriate and put the additional profit in my bank account.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> We offer annual maintenance to customers who purchased a tankless, even reminding them every year or 2. Some have their units serviced, some don't. All are still working fine so 'required' isn't an accurate comment. I have repeat customers with 10-15 yr old units that have never been serviced and they are still working fine.
> 
> Then add in the brands that have a stainless heat exchanger and the 'required' maintenance becomes even less of an issue.
> 
> Keep installing 50 gal tanks only, we'll offer a tankless if it's appropriate and put the additional profit in my bank account.



this subject has been beaten to death already.... and if we al lived within 100 miles of you then I would agree with you.. it all depends on the geographical area of the country you live in


In my state of Indiana the water is like from the bowels of hell and some city water here is over 28 parts hard with lime .. the common hardness is about 22 parts hard. so it will fill up a water heater with lime pretty quickly.. this water also clogs up the tankless units pretty quickly... whatever...

I think the last I heard the biggest SS tankless heater on the market has gone belly up...or moved to canada to keep from being sued out of business... maybe their are other fledgling start ups out there


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Navien has a stainless heat exchanger.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> this subject has been beaten to death already....



So has the opinion that tankless are not cost effective or they are a customer ripoff, that they require intensive maintenance or that a 50 is plenty for any house, no need to install a tankless. So I keep responding.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

I'm going to estimate and install (sameday) 2 navien tankless or 1 rinnai rh-180 tank/tankless hybrid. Homeowner said " install whichever type is best...I don't care". 6 Bathrooms


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> So has the opinion that tankless are not cost effective or they are a customer ripoff, that they require intensive maintenance or that a 50 is plenty for any house, no need to install a tankless. So I keep responding.




Whatever...you think is ok with me...

So..what do you charge for a 50 gallon gas heater with 6 year warranty 

compared to
one of those Naviens that you claim to have in your home that can handle 3 showers going??? 

Or how much more do you charge for a Navien ..compared to a 75 gallon unit??

I am just wondering the price difference....


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> Whatever...you think is ok with me...
> 
> So..what do you charge for a 50 gallon gas heater with 6 year warranty
> 
> ...


I have an Eternal in my house. Would rather not post my prices here. Pm?

And that's not just a claim on the 3 showers, it has happened more than once, including earlier this spring.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Mark, pm sent.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

I've installed a few Naviens with no problems, just wondering with California's severe drought how well they'll hold up with constant on/off doing dishes trying to conserve water.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> I have an Eternal in my house. Would rather not post my prices here. Pm?
> 
> And that's not just a claim on the 3 showers, it has happened more than once, including earlier this spring.



Thanks for the information....I honestly dont get enough calls here to worry about the tankless market.... I did two 50 Rheems on Friday which went very well and they were sold over the phone ...while I was driving... 

For these same customers to shell out between 3+4k and make this decision on the phone with me is just not gonna happen.... too big a decision and too much money not for them to think about it for a day or two and get more info..... I have no desire to sit down with ma and paw at their kitchen table some evening to figure out financing with them either


The Eternal you have in your home was supposed to be the best and most advanced unit on the market.... I kinda thought they were gonna take over the market but Then they got rode out of this town on a rail after too many problems..... 

Lots of guys here got stuck holding the bag on a few of them, tore them out and installed other brands.... probably the naviens..

maybe the units that are working good will last long enough to hit break even and maybe not..

to bring this thread around full circle....What is your next choice when the eternal goes south???..


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Mark, oddly enough I had an almost complete transition to cold water while showering last week. It took a few minutes as the Eternal has the 2 gallon hybrid tank but it definitely was going cold. That is the only issue in the 4 yrs it's been in my house. In a hurry to head out to work so I didn't inspect the unit until I returned. Upon returning I found nothing wrong and so far no other issues but it had me thinking about what would I replace it with if it failed. No question, I would install a Navien.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> Mark, oddly enough I had an almost complete transition to cold water while showering last week. It took a few minutes as the Eternal has the 2 gallon hybrid tank but it definitely was going cold. That is the only issue in the 4 yrs it's been in my house. In a hurry to head out to work so I didn't inspect the unit until I returned. Upon returning I found nothing wrong and so far no other issues but it had me thinking about what would I replace it with if it failed. No question, I would install a Navien.



I dont think parts are available for those Eternals any more. I would be saving up my nickles and dimes to get my hands on the next tankless deal that comes your way... .


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> I dont think parts are available for those Eternals any more. I would be saving up my nickles and dimes to get my hands on the next tankless deal that comes your way... .


Remember, I have those few used, refurbished and 1 new unit in stock. Could swap one out ina few minutes if I had to. Got a few dollars in the business accounts if I decided to change brands. 


Checking

*9608$21,434.76. 06/04/2016



Checking


*2616$126,187.31. 06/04/2016



Checking

*6822$1,265.62. 06/04/2016


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> Remember, I have those few used, refurbished and 1 new unit in stock. Could swap one out ina few minutes if I had to. Got a few dollars in the business accounts if I decided to change brands.
> 
> 
> Checking
> ...





Nice chunk of change for half way through the year....

So you got stuck with a couple of them when they crashed and burned,,,,which is now probably a very good thing for your own personal use.. 

how many Eternals do you think you have out in service?? 

Those units are the ones that would concern me even though they are probably all out of warranty by now.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

I have about 10 units in stock, 1 new, 1 refurbished, a few with minor issues and a unit or 2 for parts only. We installed 10-15 or more a year for 5 yrs or so, so probably 50-75 units still functional out there. 

I'm holding on to all just in case there is a failure somewhere.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> I have about 10 units in stock, 1 new, 1 refurbished, a few with minor issues and a unit or 2 for parts only. We installed 10-15 or more a year for 5 yrs or so, so probably 50-75 units still functional out there.
> 
> I'm holding on to all just in case there is a failure somewhere.




Thats a very Wise move.... I would not throw any of them away ..... if you dont mind me asking what kind of parts and labor warranty did you sell them?? 

I hope that you are past the "free labor " zone on most of them

I normally give a 2 year labor warranty on my Rheem units and I am rarely stuck with any troubles or issues in that period .... Their are some places in town that claim to give a full 6,6,6 warranty on the heaters and I wonder how many they end up eating...........


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

One year labor on most all of our work. Critical work (directional drilling, pipe bursting projects, occasionally open ditch jobs, maybe grease traps) will get a longer warranty. Sometimes a customer asks for more and we give it easily. Put it in right and there shouldn't be a call back anyway.


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## panther (Oct 27, 2010)

I use Navien when a customer wants tankless. I always ask why they want to go tankless. Then I give them pros and cons. On the bigger houses with bigger families I use the 240A. Smaller demand 180A. I've never had any call backs on them. Of course I only do about 3 tankless units a year. They seem to work well.


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