# Delta diamond seal technology



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

in the past two weeks, after changeing out an old water heater.... filling up the older homes has become a problem..

we have run into 2 newer style DELTA 1700 faucets 
that simply will not allow water thought them if any 
rust of corrosion gets into the faucets...

no stops in the lines, changed the cartridges, blown out the lines without the cartridge in them.
plenty of pressure and water passes through the open faced faucet blowing into the tub
... 

once you put it back together is still locks up and will not allow water to pass through the brass body of this new faucet....

this is on older galvanized houses that can have some sediment running up the pipes over time....

we had to totally change out one faucet on tuesday...

and now we have another one that will not work 

is their something different about the new diamond seal technology that I am not aware of that can be stopping up these faucets PAST the cartridges???

does the pressure on both hot and cold have to be perfectly and exactly in balance with each other on teh new valves.. I dont think so...

has others run into this yet??
.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Mark,

The DS technology applies only to the cartridges in some of the lav and kitchen faucets. The 17 series cartridges are basically unchanged for several years.

The R10000 rough in valve does have smaller pathways than an old PP 2 handle but that hasn't changed in many moons either. The most likely place for a blockage in the valve body is the pathway to the spout. The water has to flow around the perimeter of the outlet to the shower riser to get to the spout outlet. Then when diverted at the spout (or capped for shower only) the water flows straight up the tube to the shower head. We have had a few (3 out of thousands) that succumbed to the bits and pieces of trash coming in from the old pipes.

In my opinion, there is only so much you can expect a new faucet to be able to handle. With the mandates for hot water safety and water consumption restrictions, I don't see this as Delta's fault.

This is trash coming through the line from a dilapidated plumbing system, not a faulty faucet. It wouldn't matter if the trash got past the valve and cartridge anyway. It would have clogged up the shower head.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Is the balancing spool moving freely?


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

..................


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Yet another quality product from delta :whistling2:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*My mistake*

The DS technology applies only to the cartridges in some of the lav and kitchen faucets. The 17 series cartridges are basically unchanged for several years.


In my opinion, there is only so much you can expect a new faucet to be able to handle. With the mandates for hot water safety and water consumption restrictions, I don't see this as Delta's fault.

My mistake on the diamond seal technology part here

the newer valve that delta has out is the one I am speaking of.... interchangeable between the 1700 cartridge and the 1400 valve.....
either its more sensitive to pressur changes, or any grit at all totally makes it seize up....

we had one give us fits back in february and had to tangle with it again on Monday.... 

first we capped off the 
galvanized lines and ran new pex lines directly to this valve from the basement to the second floor bath through a chase..... no affect on the original valve.
so we simply changed it out... it does not appear that anything was restricted in it .....:blink::blink:

then today another plumber tangled with the same problem.. and we ended up taking over and its gonna be a total water system change out...

I found it odd that I would run into 2 of these in one week... 

I still think it is a good valve, in fact its the only thing that DELTA makes presently that is still of good quality....


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

If you think the 1700 and 1400 are "good quality", I wouldn't even want to be in the same room as the newer stuff.



Master Mark said:


> The DS technology applies only to the cartridges in some of the lav and kitchen faucets. The 17 series cartridges are basically unchanged for several years.
> 
> 
> In my opinion, there is only so much you can expect a new faucet to be able to handle. With the mandates for hot water safety and water consumption restrictions, I don't see this as Delta's fault.
> ...


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

I have had 100% perfect track record with the 1400 and 1700's both. When I say that I mean I have never had a call back or disgruntled customer with them. Not one and I've installed plenty. What sucks totally here is Moen. If ho's provide them fine I install, otherwise no way. Repairabilty is awful with them.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

mpsllc said:


> I have had 100% perfect track record with the 1400 and 1700's both. When I say that I mean I have never had a call back or disgruntled customer with them. Not one and I've installed plenty. *What sucks totally here is Moen. If ho's provide them fine I install, otherwise no way. Repairabilty is awful with them.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> I start posting Moen 875 series Kitchen Sink Faucets and how much damage they do to countertops and sink bases,
> ...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I have never......ever......had a moen cartridge I couldn't pull.

You wanna talk "repairability" how many sing handle shower cartridges is delta up to now? 11,12?



DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> mpsllc said:
> 
> 
> > I have had 100% perfect track record with the 1400 and 1700's both. When I say that I mean I have never had a call back or disgruntled customer with them. Not one and I've installed plenty. *What sucks totally here is Moen. If ho's provide them fine I install, otherwise no way. Repairabilty is awful with them.[/*QUOTE]
> ...


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Protech said:


> I have never......ever......had a moen cartridge I couldn't pull.
> 
> You wanna talk "repairability" how many sing handle shower cartridges is delta up to now? 11,12?
> 
> ...


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I've been working on the 875 series Moen for years....


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Actually, there is more than 4. I'll snap a photo next week when I'm at the Ferguson in lakeland. They have a nice little lineup on the counter so homeowners can just point to the right one. There is way more than 4, and that's just the single handle tub shower. Add in the 2-handles and lavs and your head will really start to spin. Also, you do realize the spring and cup design has like 10 variations since it's design right?

Now as far as the moen 2-handle designs, your right. They a re PITA. I will admit that much. That does not change the fact that delta sucks. 

How about that fact that ALL of the single handle spring and cup designs leak out of the compression gland on the top. They will do this right out of the box and there is nothing yu can do to stop it. Its a design defect that cannot be "repaired". I get home owners asking me to fix that all the time. The only fix is a new faucet.

As far as lubing the "three tube" shower valve bonnets goes, why the heck should the plumber have to disassemble and brand new faucet and lubricate it? Oh that's right, because it's a defective product.

The fact that home cheapo and blowes have copied the design shouldn't be viewed as a good thing. They are the industry whores, and the delta design is just their dirty cooch rag.

By the way Dunbar, just how confident are you with delta faucets? When I supply and install a new Moen positemp tub/shower faucet, I guarantee it for 6 years (on top of Moens life time cartridge replacement guarantee). How long do you stand behind your delta shower faucets? :whistling2:



DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Protech said:
> 
> 
> > I have never......ever......had a moen cartridge I couldn't pull.
> ...


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Maybe it's a geographical thing. To say "all" leak on the bonnet even out of the box is a stretch IMO. As far as lubing the bonnets, or O rings or anything else off hand I don't know of any manufacturer that does.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

*bold*



mpsllc said:


> Maybe it's a geographical thing. To say "all" leak on the bonnet even out of the box is a stretch IMO. *Nope, next place you go that has one try this. Push the handle all the way over to the hot or cold side until it hits the edge of it's range of motion. Now, add a little pressure (don't go nuts) and water will start shooting out of the bonnet.* As far as lubing the bonnets, or O rings or anything else off hand I don't know of any manufacturer that does. *Moen does. Also, Delta is the only one that has flooded out tens of thousands of homes due to their stupid 2 piece valve body. I guess some people view that as a good thing because it generates future service calls. Make sure you tell your customer that when you are selling them one* :whistling2:


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Yeah but at least they are repairable and don't require cartridge jacks and crossed fingers. Moens pack up with minerals here and a PITA to repair. But I don't know of any that I can say hung the moon in every way. And I sure won't try to say Delta does and I know for a fact Moen doesn't. I think we could agree they all come short in one way or another.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

mpsllc said:


> Yeah but at least they are repairable and don't require cartridge jacks and crossed fingers. I don't know of any that I can say hung the moon in every way. And I sure won't try to say Delta does and I know for a fact Moen doesn't. I think we could agree they all come short in one way or another.


My only complaints with Moen are their 2 handle cartridge design and the fact that they sold out to big box. Other that that, I think they are the greatest faucets ever designed.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Protech said:


> My only complaints with Moen are their 2 handle cartridge design and the fact that they sold out to big box. Other that that, I think they are the greatest faucets ever designed.


 
Most on here are not old enough to have worked on the original Moen cores.

The old American ... GE kitchens. remember those when they got tight.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Most on here are not old enough to have worked on the original Moen cores.
> 
> The old American ... GE kitchens. remember those when they got tight.


Is that when they called them Standadyne?


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

Only thing I can say about Moen, its been the same design of the cartridge for how many years... decades..?

Oh yeah the free replacement cartridge that we sell to the customer is a good little bonus...


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Protech said:


> Actually, there is more than 4. I'll snap a photo next week when I'm at the Ferguson in lakeland. They have a nice little lineup on the counter so homeowners can just point to the right one. There is way more than 4, and that's just the single handle tub shower. Add in the 2-handles and lavs and your head will really start to spin. Also, you do realize the spring and cup design has like 10 variations since it's design right?
> 
> Now as far as the moen 2-handle designs, your right. They a re PITA. I will admit that much. That does not change the fact that delta sucks.
> 
> ...


 

I'll start at the top, run down the list:


We are talking about tub/shower faucets, that's it. At least that was my focus. 


The compression gland is not the terminology. It's the camber assembly that for years had an adjustment ring. If you chose not to tighten that, then yes, it will leak.


But let me inform you of why you have so many problems with Delta faucets in your area:

Acid water. You've shown us, That's not a delta problem that's a water quality problem.


Secondly:


You have a youtube video >> TXT.wmv where you explain that a *90 pound* *hard spring* in the relief valve is better than a thermal expansion tank that can adjust to as little as 1/2 pound of deflection in thermal expansion without losing one drop of water in waste to a drip leg to grade.


Thirdly,

You setting incoming pressures to 90psi static is ridiculous because deltas are notorious for leaking above 60 pounds and premature wear on the seat cups will result.

Why you would set 90 pounds when you know that all faucets/supply lines/valves, anything including the GPM ratings on all flow restricting aerators is based on 60 pounds of pressure.



In the United States, the majority of codes enforce PRV's and Expansion tanks, or some type of thermal expansion relief aside from T&Ps when pressure reaches above 80 pounds.


Why are you setting pressures at 90 pounds? That's why your faucets are leaking oddly in places they shouldn't. 


Anyone that has spent years in this profession knows that it's not wise to solder in a tub/shower valve with the internals still inside. Guess what that means? 

The installing plumber normally solders in a monitor series Delta almost always... rarely have I seen them threaded. If you have a house of copper water lines why would you? 

Those valves even with the separation of 3 copper tubes are a heat sink and putting the flame to 3 or 4 connections will transfer heat right into the cartridge.

Why, would anyone as a plumber with half a brain not remove that cartridge to prevent damage to the O-rings or temper the internals of that faucet?

That leads me back to the initial installer of the product. Why didn't they grease the bonnet nut.

Moen sends you a small break stick of silicone with every cartridge. Why? Because their cartridges lock up inside the barrel of the faucet.

Takes special tools, always and if the cartridge breaks, it's an easy out adventure like I enjoyed just 4 weeks ago replacing a 1200 all brass cartridge.

Another common issue with moen tub faucets: 

Tear drop handles break the plastic stops inside the handle, always. Over the years the cartridge gets harder to pull in and out, constantly and this will lead to customers calling me with faucets floating inside the wall because the hard pull/push design broke it loose in the wall. 


I started installing Moen Faucets in the mid to late 80's because the plumber I worked for? That's all we would install. I mean everything.

And how many times did we have to come back to those new homes when someone threw the water on and didn't open a laundry tub faucet first? 


The small gravels, dirt and debris would make it to those Moen Tub/Shower Faucets and it would be an hour, hour and a half, two hours with me and another guy, or the plumber who owned the company with coat hanger wire, solder wire, anything to get those pieces of debris out of the barrel of the moen faucet because the openings consisted of cast finish with square holes where the ports were. I worked for that plumber for off and on, 3 years. It was a great day when the nephew took over and went to Delta, even with the 3 tube design. 

Did we grease the bonnets? Absolutely not. Shame on us though for not doing it. We always broke down our valves before jigging them up.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Protech said:


> ...just how confident are you with delta faucets?...


LIFETIME labor & material.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Ahh 90 psi. To that I say no wonder all your Deltas leak at the gland.:no:
I wondered how that could be but then again our psi is typically 50 to 60 psi and anywhere in between. Thx for enlighting us DB.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

*bold*



DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I'll start at the top, run down the list:
> 
> 
> We are talking about tub/shower faucets, that's it. At least that was my focus. *Fair enough.
> ...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

So if the faucets starts to drip 15 years later you will come back out and rebuild/replace it for free?



plbgbiz said:


> LIFETIME labor & material.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

read post #24



mpsllc said:


> Ahh 90 psi. To that I say no wonder all your Deltas leak at the gland.:no:
> I wondered how that could be but then again our psi is typically 50 to 60 psi and anywhere in between. Thx for enlighting us DB.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Protech said:


> So if the faucets starts to drip 15 years later you will come back out and rebuild/replace it for free?


Yes. :yes:

We have been offering this warranty for about 10 years. We've replaced a few cartridges here and there. The Delta rep keeps us supplied with whatever we need for tub/shower repair parts at no charge. (we pay for lav stems, o-rings, and cups/springs)

We've replaced one valve body.

In my experience, dollar for dollar.....Delta's simple and repairable design can not be beat.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I guess I should say that Delta's design probably can be beat, just not by anything that is presently on the market.

This is kind of a Ford/Chevy debate in my opinion. Each manufacturer will have devout loyalists. There will also be those that are willing to change at the drop of a hat based on which company leap frogs the other with the next best design.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

*set the record straight*



Redwood said:


> Is that when they called them Standadyne?


*No Standyne was the name given to Moen when Moen showed up on Orange Box shelfs. Then Moen sold out the plumbing trade and called the Standyne line Moen. In other words the plumbing trade was prostituded. *

*Google had in their images a add slick from a 50's vintage Moen Note the plumbing trade in the early years of single lever made Moen ... IMHO *


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> No Standyne was the name given to Moen when Moen showed up on Orange Box shelfs. Then Moen sold out the plumbing trade and called the Standyne line Moen. In other words the plumbing trade was prostituded.
> 
> Google had in their images a add slick from a 50's vintage Moen Note the plumbing trade in the early years of single lever made Moen ... IMHO


I still see and rebuild those faucets today...
That faucet speaks for itself, as in they don't make them like that anymore...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

no 1 does


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

You posted this,




> *I guess you don't pay much attention to my posts (until I criticize your favorite brand that is). WE DO NOT HAVE ACIDIC WATER IN CENTRAL FLORIDA. Our aquifer is mainly limestone formations. Unless you're pulling water out of a lake (which no one does), you are going to get water that has a PH that is about 8. I think I've talked about this several times in a variety on threads regarding copper pin hole leaks. Perhaps you have poor reading comprehension or something, I don't know. Even if we assume you are right (and you aren't), it wouldn't matter because the delta faucets leak out of said seal right out of the box. *


 
But you didn't have an opinion when I posted a response about copper pinhole failures in Florida.



That's all you're getting out of me tonight. I'm tired. But I wrote those statements on your thread, and you held no debate to my statements. In this war zone we call Plumbing Zone,

that's means you agree with what I had to say.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*found my own answer...*

we tore this 1700 body out on Monday cause it was too full of old built up galvinezed rust... this is a 2 year old faucet

had one today that I was able to strip down to its base form and then take a screw-driver and pound through the hole above the plastic insert and beat on the venturi fitting till it finally let loose of all the rust.. put it all back together and it spewed out a ton of rust out the tub spout

that is the only way to repair this model... when it gets stopped up with grit....

this only appears to be a problem with the newer design 
that has the body that will accept either a 1400 or 17oo cartridge...




if I have saved one person the trouble I have gone through , 
I have done my good deed this week..:laughing:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

So let me get this straight. You're argument is that because I gave the nutcase in the corner no response, that means I agree with him?

Also, even if you assume that I agree with you (and I don't), how does that apply to the debate in this thread again? 



DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> You posted this,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> we tore this 1700 body out on Monday cause it was too full of old built up galvinezed rust... this is a 2 year old faucet
> 
> had one today that I was able to strip down to its base form and then take a screw-driver and pound through the hole above the plastic insert and beat on the venturi fitting till it finally let loose of all the rust.. put it all back together and it spewed out a ton of rust out the tub spout
> 
> ...


As much as I like to dog on delta, I would say that just about any faucet would have failed in those conditions. However, I could have just pulled the cartridge out of a Moen Positemp and flushed it and I would have been done.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*why dont you two guys get a room*



Protech said:


> So let me get this straight. You're argument is that because I gave the nutcase in the corner no response, that means I agree with him?
> 
> Also, even if you assume that I agree with you (and I don't), how does that apply to the debate in this thread again?


what is going on with you two??
you guys need to get on the phone to each 
other and scream it out......


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

I have fought those as well.

What I have done with some success, is take off the shower head, spout and remove the cartridge. Cap the shower arm. Take compressed air and blow through top center hole in the valve body. Then blow through the spout stub out. Take a bent pick and poke around the diverter in that center hole. blow a few more times and watch for the chunks. 

I was looking at a new r10000 body the other day. it looks like the diverter in the body is shaped different now, with bigger passages. Maybe that will help.


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