# Solder Wouldn't Stick



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

I tried to solder (2) sweat stops today for a customer. The house was built in the 1980's or early 1990's. There were (2) copper stub-outs for a future laundry sink but no sink was ever installed there until today. This is in the garage. I soldered like I normally do. I have been soldering for nearly (20) years. Clean pipe, clean fitting, reamed pipe, applied flux, then heat. I thought it was done. When I turned on the water, both sweat stops were leaking! 

So I turn off water, un-sweat stops to inspect, and to my dismay, there was no solder on the pipe where it should have been and there was no solder inside the brass sweat stop! I re-soldered, the solder didn't flow like I wanted it to. When I turned on the water the 2nd time, both stops were still leaking.....:furious:...now I am not only bewildered but angry. I opted for a couple of compression stops. 

But I'd like to know if anyone else has ever had this?

Again, I know how to solder. I could do it blindfolded. I am stuped as to why the solder refused to stick to the copper and brass. Maybe the pipe had some acid on it? It's been in the garage bare with only a cap on it for years. Maybe my kid poured something in my flux? I don't have the foggiest idea.

Anyone?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Try tinning the pipe next time


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

What kind of flux were you using ? Was it an old pint of flux?


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

justme said:


> What kind of flux were you using ? Was it an old pint of flux?


Between buying small containers, soldering often and dropping them from the highest place of the job I will never know; is there a shelf life?


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Stir your paste. :whistling2:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

justme said:


> What kind of flux were you using ? Was it an old pint of flux?


 






Oatey #5.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Is that a newer stop made out of the eco brass or is it older truck stock?


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Another wrinkle in the lead-free brass fiasco, maybe? :blink:

I've run into that once or twice when trying to re-solder old joints I sweated apart and chalked it up to incompatible solders, but never on a new joint (unless I forgot to clean the pipe or fitting :whistling2.


edit:

Hey! What are those lines on your copper pipe? Did you forget to sand your copper?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

justme said:


> Is that a newer stop made out of the eco brass or is it older truck stock?


 








Old truck stock; Brass craft. 

It was below freezing here the other night, maybe that caused my can of flux to separate a little. Although the flux looked O.K. to me. I am thinking it's the flux.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

gotta be the flux. Chunk it and get you a fresh pint.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

I would say it's the flux!


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

why didnt you try compresion stop


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

I respectfully disagree on the flux opinion. I have had this happen before as well even using the worst flux around, my thoughts is that the pipe needs to be sanded, 

tempered then resanded.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

I'm starting to wonder if you were set up with cool gel or something similar.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

I had to stir mine the other day because it wasnt acting right.


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

i am going with bad flux, it has happened to me recently as well, the flux would not stick to the copper when applied, even if stirred, new can of flux solved the issue.


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

I stirred in some Crisco while you went to lunch. :jester:

I've had brand new stops come packaged with manufacturing left overs, so it's possible that there is something in the socket. Even wire brushing won't clean it properly.

Tin it, sand it, solder it


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Old or bad flux. Had it happen to me too. Got new flux and took like a champ !!!!


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

I was doing some repair work at a funeral home once and it was a line that ran along the wall opposite a gurney and the pipe itself was used as a shelf for years. Not sure what chemical had gotten on that pipe but solder absolutely would not stick, couldn't tin it or anything to make it stick. When I removed it the copper was very brittle almost like brass but it was copper tubing?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

revenge said:


> why didnt you try compresion stop


 






I like installing sweat angle stops on copper instead of compression. Several reasons. One is: it'll never blow off the pipe. I like the brass stem in a sweat stop too. In this case, I got some compression angle stops from my truck stock and installed them.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> I tried to solder (2) sweat stops today for a customer. The house was built in the 1980's or early 1990's. There were (2) copper stub-outs for a future laundry sink but no sink was ever installed there until today. This is in the garage. I soldered like I normally do. I have been soldering for nearly (20) years. Clean pipe, clean fitting, reamed pipe, applied flux, then heat. I thought it was done. When I turned on the water, both sweat stops were leaking!
> 
> So I turn off water, un-sweat stops to inspect, and to my dismay, there was no solder on the pipe where it should have been and there was no solder inside the brass sweat stop! I re-soldered, the solder didn't flow like I wanted it to. When I turned on the water the 2nd time, both stops were still leaking.....:furious:...now I am not only bewildered but angry. I opted for a couple of compression stops.
> 
> ...


*Were the valves open or closed ? Back pressure from the heat or a little steam could have caused the problem.*


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Were the valves open or closed ? Back pressure from the heat or a little steam could have caused the problem.


I thought the same thing but wouldn't insult him like that, after 20 years of soldering!


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Bob from ridgid forum posted along time ago about the same thing and it was only angle stops he mentioned. Next time it happens, try soldering some regular joints with the "suspected" bad flux to see if that's the cause.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Tommy what do you use to clean the copper, I've seen brushes or pads with minimal trace amount of oil do what your describing. Is it possible that there was some kind of contamination?


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

gear junkie said:


> Bob from ridgid forum posted along time ago about the same thing and it was only angle stops he mentioned. Next time it happens, try soldering some regular joints with the "suspected" bad flux to see if that's the cause.


It happend to me. It took on the copper but not the brass shower valve body. Very weird. Tried and tried. Finally got new flux and it took on both like a champ. Flux was a dark brown and was in the truck for years.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> I thought the same thing but wouldn't insult him like that, after 20 years of soldering!


The pictures he posted clearly shows he had the stems removed so that wouldn't be an issue.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

justme said:


> The pictures he posted clearly shows he had the stems removed so that wouldn't be an issue.


Didn't look at the picture to closely (on the phone) but anyway he would have to remove the stem or the plastic melts lol
I don't think Tommy would bring this to us if he hadn't followed procedure


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## Tim`s Plumbing (Jan 17, 2012)

I ran into a job once where the plumber lacquered all the pipe and fittings so they would not tarnish. Let me tell ya it was a P.I.T.A. getting it all of to solder it also hard to tell if it was off or not.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> I like installing sweat angle stops on copper instead of compression. Several reasons. One is: it'll never blow off the pipe. I like the brass stem in a sweat stop too. In this case, I got some compression angle stops from my truck stock and installed them.


 

How many sweat stops do you normally install a month?

How old where the stops in question? 

reason i ask is that if yer mistaken about the stops being lead free


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> *Were the valves open or closed ? Back pressure from the heat or a little steam could have caused the problem.*


 






I always remove the brass stems before soldering my stops. 

I haven't had a pin-hole leak from water in the pipe turning to steam in quite a few years. Something else was going on. I am thinking some kind of chemical reaction of sorts.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Il think at my new job il sil flos all the stops on. And rite up against the wall. Lmao.


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

My opinion, the pipe has something oil based on it. With out the stop heat it up and wash it with the flux then with a wet cloth quech the heat then sand cloth it once more. I know little late, how'd it turn out?


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

johnlewismcleod said:


> What are those lines on your copper pipe? Did you forget to sand your copper?


When I look at the picture, I see roller marks from your tubing cutters
on the ends of the copper. Unless you tried to use a tub of flux that
came from some deep dark corner of your truck, I think you just failed
to clean the pipe well enough.
Don't be upset, I'm just commenting on what I see...


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

BigDave said:


> When I look at the picture, I see roller marks from your tubing cutters
> on the ends of the copper. Unless you tried to use a tub of flux that
> came from some deep dark corner of your truck, I think you just failed
> to clean the pipe well enough.
> Don't be upset, I'm just commenting on what I see...


To expand on that, perhaps the OP sanded first and cut second... Contamination from rollers on tubing cutter perhaps?


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

U666A said:


> To expand on that, perhaps the OP sanded first and cut second... Contamination from rollers on tubing cutter perhaps?


Possible for certain. I had it happen to me shorty after WD-40ing my cutters. :yes:


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

I always sand the face of the valves and old fittings where the outsides of them are dirty. Maybe the solder was only hitting the chrome.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Michaelcookplum said:


> I always sand the face of the valves and old fittings where the outsides of them are dirty. Maybe the solder was only hitting the chrome.


I do the same thing. Thers that small bevel on the face. And if the fitting is old it won't take ther. I don't like that !!!


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Michaelcookplum said:


> I always sand the face of the valves and old fittings where the outsides of them are dirty. Maybe the solder was only hitting the chrome.


But capilary action should draw it up into the hub if the OD of the pipe and the ID of the stop are cleaned and fluxed properly, no?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

BigDave said:


> Possible for certain. I had it happen to me shorty after WD-40ing my cutters. :yes:


 






I think that you might be correct. One day before I did this job, I looked at my tubing cutters and noticed they were in need of some lubricant. So I squirted generously with WD-40. Then the next day I had this problem. I bet you're right.

Just for fun I soldered the angle stops in question again and tested them at home.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

BigDave said:


> Possible for certain. I had it happen to me shorty after WD-40ing my cutters. :yes:


 









David, I think you hit the nail on the head with the WD-40 scenario.....


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

I'm giving myself a point for an assist on this one! :laughing:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

U666A said:


> To expand on that, perhaps the OP sanded first and cut second... Contamination from rollers on tubing cutter perhaps?


 






Yes. You're correct U666A. In a hurry, I'll clean the copper first; while it's dry before I cut it with my tubing cutters. The rollers did have WD-40 on them.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> Yes. You're correct U666A. In a hurry, I'll clean the copper first; while it's dry before I cut it with my tubing cutters. The rollers did have WD-40 on them.


Pat on the head acknowledged.
:jester:

I often do the same, never had an issue but I'll be more cognizant of that in the future for sure!


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

This thread is what makes PZ so valuable, a thinktank of professionals offering viable hypotheses to a fellow member's query. :thumbup:


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

Tommy plumber said:


> David, I think you hit the nail on the head with the WD-40 scenario.....


Just don't lie awake tonight thinking of how many possible blow offs you
might have, always sand again after cutting...


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

I recently had a problem with solder flow too. I too been in the trade many years I knew right away the problem was the flux (not my normal brand) So I grabbed a new tub same result not sticking . Stirred the hell out of the flux and it worked perfect.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

jeffreyplumber said:


> I recently had a problem with solder flow too. I too been in the trade many years I knew right away the problem was the flux (not my normal brand) So I grabbed a new tub same result not sticking . Stirred the hell out of the flux and it worked perfect.


I have a couple of old paddle bits that I ground the pilot point off. I chuck them in my battery drill to stir whatever flux I am using.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

*!!*



Pipe Rat said:


> Stir your paste. :whistling2:





revenge said:


> why didnt you try compresion stop





Bayside500 said:


> i am going with bad flux, it has happened to me recently as well, the flux would not stick to the copper when applied, even if stirred, new can of flux solved the issue.





422 plumber said:


> I have a couple of old paddle bits that I ground the pilot point off. I chuck them in my battery drill to stir whatever flux I am using.


 

Covered this many many years ago... on a plumbing forum far far away. Had this problem dating back to 2000-2001, almost got fired for it. My fault for not replacing the flux, had been separated in the container because we was heating it up sporadically to get it pliable so we could brush it on the piping before solidering. 

WRONG!


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> Yes. You're correct U666A. In a hurry, I'll clean the copper first; while it's dry before I cut it with my tubing cutters. The rollers did have WD-40 on them.


What?!...never do this....do it again and you'll need to turn in your torch for sharkbites.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

gear junkie said:


> What?!...never do this....do it again and you'll need to turn in your torch for sharkbites.


I do it but clean it again after I cut it. Clean it very well. I don't ever put wd40 on cutters. I remove screw put heat proof grease on the screw for the roller and wipe rollers clean every time I get them out. Last thing to touch pipe befor flux is sand cloth. I never touch it with my hands ether


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Not to brag but I was the first to say oil contamination. It can look like it's taking but it ain't!


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Bayside500 said:


> i am going with bad flux, it has happened to me recently as well, the flux would not stick to the copper when applied, even if stirred, new can of flux solved the issue.


Not sure if you remember but we had some flux that was bad. oatey. Even brand new cans we couldn't get to take. Stirred or no stirred. So I got some no korode. No issues.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

422 plumber said:


> I have a couple of old paddle bits that I ground the pilot point off. I chuck them in my battery drill to stir whatever flux I am using.


I do that with my new cans of blue magic.


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