# Utica high eff



## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

A friend of mine had a high eff Utica installed a couple years ago by a family friend of her husband. It hasn't run correctly since it was installed and now the installer won't come back to attempt to straighten it out. From what I've heard he's had an electrician look at and he's been over there a few times to look at it. I'm not sure exactly what it's doing yet but she tells me most of the time it doesn't run. I don't like Utica in general so I haven't installed one or had the displeasure of working on one. I had a rep do a demo for me and I wasn't overly impressed with it. 
Any one have any pointers or know of any common problems these things have before I go in there and start tearing into this thing?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Without pics it will be difficult, did pipe it properly ( primary/secondary piping) gas pipe sized correctly, gas pressures checked, set up with a combustion analyzer?

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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Was he licensed?


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Honestly, I have no idea. I'm supposed to look at it tomorrow or Thursday. I glanced at it once when it first started acting up but having never installed one I couldn't tell if it was piped correctly. I did notice a lot of green joints and the vent termination was well below the snow line. I told her to have him fix those issues before I left because he was still trying to get it to run right. The only thing I really remember from the demo I had was the internal bypass valve needs to be open or closed depending on how the piping is done so I was going to start there. I just printed out all 80+ pages of the installation book to look at before heading over there. I was just wondering if these things had any common problems I should be looking for.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

dhal22 said:


> Was he licensed?


He was licensed. The situation gets a little sticky. About a year after he installed it he became the inspector for the town this is in. He told her at the time "you don't need a permit for this..." I'm not really sure how I'm going to handle that aspect of it yet but for now I just want to get them reliable heat, if that's even possible with a Utica.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

bct p&h said:


> He was licensed. The situation gets a little sticky. About a year after he installed it he became the inspector for the town this is in. He told her at the time "you don't need a permit for this..." I'm not really sure how I'm going to handle that aspect of it yet but for now I just want to get them reliable heat, if that's even possible with a Utica.


Oh boy, the ole do as I say not as I do kinda guy. Lol.

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## dclark (Dec 12, 2010)

I inspected one a few years back.

Boiler was short cycling.
Not enough hot water for the family.

The boiler was a 80-200MBH with different tag, but the same as Utica's UB95M-200.
House was about 6000 sq ft, updated insulation and windows, putting the heat loss at about 90MBH at design temp. (guess, not calced)(Our design temp is about -7C/19F)
About 10 zones + 40 Gal Amtrol indirect on a 3/4 zone valve..
Direct piped, single Taco 007 with zone zone valves.
Outdoor sensor disconnected.

The proposed fix included primary secondary piping, delta p pump on the secondary side, pumped zone to the amtrol, and a buffer tank.

The repair was declined, "I already paid 10K+, it shouldn't need all that work".
I guess that if I was any good, I could have adjusted the something or other, and made it work for under $100.

Without knowing more details of your installation, hard to say what the problem(s) could be.
Most of the issues I've come across are installer errors.


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

dclark said:


> I inspected one a few years back.
> 
> Boiler was short cycling.
> Not enough hot water for the family.
> ...


No doubt, 10 zones in a house, with a boiler that only modulates down to 80MBH, I couldn't guess why it was short cycling.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Went out to look at it today. She mentioned that it ran better when the cover was off. I can see why, the intake and exhaust are maybe 3" apart.
It wasn't piped primary secondary and he had the internal loop valve closed.
I fired it off. It runs for about 2 seconds before you can hear it flashing steam and the boiler codes out. I open the bottle vent on top of the boiler and I get about ten seconds of steam coming out of it.
Purged the boiler and system piping to see if it was air bound and try to fire it again, same problem. The piping above the circulator is burning hot, below is ice cold.
Call tech support anyway and they confirm what I already know. It needs a new internal circulator before I can continue with anything else. Going to have to make some phone calls tomorrow to see price and availability of it. 
I don't like the way it was piped to begin with. There isn't enough spacing from the pump to the zone valves and because he used zone valves the boiler is firing and the pump is dead heading while the zone valves are still opening.


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

I really hate zone valves. I try not to ever use them, they are nothing but problems.

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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

bct p&h said:


> Went out to look at it today. She mentioned that it ran better when the cover was off. I can see why, the intake and exhaust are maybe 3" apart.
> It wasn't piped primary secondary and he had the internal loop valve closed.
> I fired it off. It runs for about 2 seconds before you can hear it flashing steam and the boiler codes out. I open the bottle vent on top of the boiler and I get about ten seconds of steam coming out of it.
> Purged the boiler and system piping to see if it was air bound and try to fire it again, same problem. The piping above the circulator is burning hot, below is ice cold.
> ...


Replace the zone valves so they have end switches and maybe put a taco zone controller, it will fully let the zone valve open before the boiler is signaled to fire


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Catlin987987 said:


> Replace the zone valves so they have end switches and maybe put a taco zone controller, it will fully let the zone valve open before the boiler is signaled to fire


That's a true boiler guy talking... knows his electric... had a plumbing call ... seen they had hydronic heat.. asked why all those 1/6 motors ( 3 or 4) laying around.. said they have them replaced every two years as they go bad.. wtf?? The pump was dead heading with all the zone valves closed... did the rewiring job.. same motor there now for almost 15 years.. sadly, the customer moved away and new owner decided to go to forced air... fokkin hot air people..


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## dclark (Dec 12, 2010)

If I'm reading correctly, that boiler doesn't need primary-sec- piping, built in (as you said).

Temp pressure guage should be on the hot supply to the system?
Looks like he may have the temp guage and valve position reversed, so that leads me to...

I can't tell from the pic which way that taco pump is pumping, but if it's away fronm the exp tank as it should be, the installer might have crossed the connection to the boiler.

The fix may be as simple as reversing the boiler connections.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

dclark said:


> If I'm reading correctly, that boiler doesn't need primary-sec- piping, built in (as you said).
> 
> Temp pressure guage should be on the hot supply to the system?
> Looks like he may have the temp guage and valve position reversed, so that leads me to...
> ...


Can't pin point which boiler is it.. one of them said it have built in primary-secondary pump.. meaning the system must have that piping confrigarglion (sp)..


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## dclark (Dec 12, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> Can't pin point which boiler is it.. one of them said it have built in primary-secondary pump.. meaning the system must have that piping confrigarglion (sp)..


Agreed.

He said that the internal pump was not working.

In some that I've seen you can (in some applications) use the internal pump as the system pump with the internal bypass closed (Direct piped), 

Or open the bypass and pipe is as the pics show with the additional secondary pump.

Hard to say without the model or a clear view of the internal boiler piping.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

dclark said:


> Agreed.
> 
> He said that the internal pump was not working.
> 
> ...


 Havnt seen a Utica cond boiler here yet... but one thing.. same company makes those 87 percenter are junk... we call them Junkirk here...


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

I believe the model is a ssc100, I don't have my papers in front of me right now.
He does have the supply going to the supply and the return to the return. I'm not sure why he has the gauge on the return. Only thing I can think of is that because the screen on the boiler tells you the supply temp he might have put it on the return to figure the delta t?
I agree with you about the taco box but that doesn't help with the distances before and after the pump being too short. It should be repiped and rewired. If I'm going to go through all of that I'm going to ditch the zone valves for pumps, personal preference.
Another problem with this whole install was that he took 100k+ BTUs out of the chimney but he left the water heater in there. I'd put money on that chimney didn't get lined to be sized correctly for just the water heater. I'll take a closer look at that when I go back.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> Havnt seen a Utica cond boiler here yet... but one thing.. same company makes those 87 percenter are junk... we call them Junkirk here...


That's the first one I've seen installed. The only other time I've seen one was during a rep demo.
I've never been impressed with Utica and this high eff boiler isn't helping them in my eyes.
The conventional Utica water boilers leak because they use gaskets instead of push nipples.
The steam boilers would get holes in them in the same spot, back right top corner. Last one I dealt with Utica sent me a new block under warranty. It had a steel reinforcement in that back top right corner. Guess they finally figured out the blocks were getting holes in the same spot.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

bct p&h said:


> That's the first one I've seen installed. The only other time I've seen one was during a rep demo.
> I've never been impressed with Utica and this high eff boiler isn't helping them in my eyes.
> The conventional Utica water boilers leak because they use gaskets instead of push nipples.
> The steam boilers would get holes in them in the same spot, back right top corner. Last one I dealt with Utica sent me a new block under warranty. It had a steel reinforcement in that back top right corner. Guess they finally figured out the blocks were getting holes in the same spot.


I'm a Weil Mclain b oiler guy... never had problem with rubber gaskets.. only when they are installed wrong and using oil based chemicals for treatment.. the shorted life I've seen, 3 yrs ( never took care of the buried pipe leaks)..


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> I'm a Weil Mclain b oiler guy... never had problem with rubber gaskets.. only when they are installed wrong and using oil based chemicals for treatment.. the shorted life I've seen, 3 yrs ( never took care of the buried pipe leaks)..


I like to stick with Burnham and slant-fin for conventional boilers and htp for high eff. Just personal preference. I've seen a lot of Utica boilers leaking from the gaskets. I don't see a lot of Weil Mclains with puddles under them from the gaskets but when I do a swap out there is usually staining on the block from the gaskets. A lot of the towns I work in around here have guys that don't know how to properly antifreeze a boiler and a lot of times will antifreeze a boiler when it's not needed so some of those leaks and stains could be from that. I've worked with more than a few guys that will pump in straight antifreeze into every zone until it comes out pink. They have no clue about dilution ratios or even how to test the antifreeze to see if the mixtures are right. They don't realize that they are taking away a lot of the efficiency of the boiler and destroying all the seals and gaskets that crap comes into contact with.


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