# Template Assisted Crystallization



## smellslike$tome

I have not yet been willing to sell any of the "no salt water conditioners". Although I really love the idea, I just don't have confidence in any of the types that use some type of electrical or magnetic field to a "alter" the structure of hard water minerals.

Now I'm reading about systems using "template assisted crystallization" whatever the heck that is. Can anybody offer a simple explanation on how it works and more importantly, does it work.


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## Tankless

If it's what I think it is, it has something to do with "lubricating" the calcium micro particulate in an effort for it to not build up. It's all BS IMO. As the guy who sells me my softeners told me, "If it worked, I'd be selling it". Companies like Pentair - GE - Clack have spent tens of millions on this research, and as far as I know, there is nothing available for the market. If you hear otherwise, leme know.


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## Protech

You should buy one for your house. After that, I've got a great little machine for $4000 that will make your drinking water alkaline and micro oxygenate it. This treated water will make you feel great. :laughing:



smellslike$tome said:


> I have not yet been willing to sell any of the "no salt water conditioners". Although I really love the idea, I just don't have confidence in any of the types that use some type of electrical or magnetic field to a "alter" the structure of hard water minerals.
> 
> Now I'm reading about systems using "template assisted crystallization" whatever the heck that is. Can anybody offer a simple explanation on how it works and more importantly, does it work.


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## smellslike$tome

Protech said:


> You should buy one for your house. After that, I've got a great little machine for $4000 that will make your drinking water alkaline and micro oxygenate it. This treated water will make you feel great. :laughing:


Ok, I guess I'm slightly disappointed and surprised at your response Pro. I hold you to be someone who invests a significant amount of time educating yourself about a great many things. This is obvious to anyone who has interacted with you on this sight over the last couple of years. I would say that your knowledge is generally valued and your opinions generally respected by most, myself included.

I do not know whether TAC works or is just another gimmick but I gotta tell you that if all I had to go on was your response, then I still wouldn't know anything about it. To dismiss it out of hand does not reflect the open mindedness I have come to expect from you. Maybe it is all crap. There have been many posers attempt to knock the salt softener off of the top of the hill and it seems they all have failed. However, does this mean that nothing better will EVER be developed. If it's hocus pocus then fine, I'll be disappointed again but if you don't KNOW that it is, why do you assume that it is. Oh btw, if it turns out to be legitimate, you better know that I can pair it with a carbon filter and sell the crap out of the systems for $4500 and up . If Culligan and RainSoft are getting $7500 for a salt softener and carbon filter I will have no trouble selling for the 5k range, add a NR98DVC and I'm looking at a nice 10K ticket for 2 days work.

Again, does anybody KNOW anything about this?


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

I have installed a couple of these, http://www.easywater.com/

Now whether or not they work, I could not tell you. 

But here are some reviews about the product.

http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/the-freije-company-c213755.html

Hope this helps in your mission to conquer the world, or at least Birmingham, possibly the state of Alabama.

BTW, these were owner bought and purchased units, and for my lectrician and I to team up, and install these together, made for some easy money.


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## smellslike$tome

Tankless said:


> If it's what I think it is, it has something to do with "lubricating" the calcium micro particulate in an effort for it to not build up. It's all BS IMO. As the guy who sells me my softeners told me, "If it worked, I'd be selling it". Companies like Pentair - GE - Clack have spent tens of millions on this research, and as far as I know, there is nothing available for the market. If you hear otherwise, leme know.


I never knew about it until it turned up on Noritz's website. I called Jason today and although I still can't really tell you how it's supposed to work exactly, I can say that they are claiming 99.6% effectiveness over a 4 year independent in home tests. The main thing I wanted to know from him was is Noritz going to put there money where there mouth is, that is, will it eliminate all potential warranty glitches based on water quality. A year ago Noritz, to the best of my knowledge, had no published water quality requirements with respect to their warranty. Sometime during the last year they began to publish water hardness requirements for maintaining the warranty. Jason tells me that the product that is being offered satisfies all warranty issues at least as far as 75 grains which covers everything here with the possible exception of the odd well system.

So I don't know it's possible that the water quality requirements is just Noritz cya language. Maybe they fully intend to replace heat exchangers regardless of water quality. Maybe this is just an upsale item and if it doesn't work, no sweat, they will send you a new heat exchanger anyway. Who knows, all I know is that I don't care for salt softeners personally or professionally. I've seen 2" drain lines completely closed off with what I'm pretty sure was hardened brine/hard water mineral back wash. I don't like the backwash disposal requirements. I don't want to send it to a septic system at all. I don't want to install them only to have the ho call me up wanting to know why the water feels so slimy. I'd love to find an alternative THAT WORKS. If TAC isn't it, fine I'll keep waiting, fortunately there are only a very few areas here that have very hard water. The vast majority of my area would be classified as moderately hard.


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## ckoch407

Have you tried NM or H2o H? Ive done a few of each. There are pros and cons to salt softeners and "salt-less" types. We have Very Hard water in FL. If they are on well water then I cant say from experience what the NM will do. They have some new stuff that just came out thats supposed to be for Very Hard well water but havent seen it in action yet. On municipal water you dont NEED a softener as it has already been "softened" to an acceptable level in most cases. The NM units Ive installed on city water have created more than happy customers. The taste kinda reminds me of the Fiji brand bottled water. They have biased me against "softeners". Why on earth anybody would remove 100% of the calcium and magnesium in water and replace it with sodium is beyond me. It is good for you, acts as a buffer to balance the Ph, and has no odor. (Try doing a Ph test on softened or RO water. It falls in the "Add Ph Stab" level of the scale, and that is just for swimming). It is a nuisance though. The list of pros and cons is pretty long. Both sides have valid points and propaganda on the list. The no salt units cost more and arent for everyone. So I sell both. To answer your question, Ive never heard of TAC until now.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

I think you worry too much.


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## Protech

I looked into the no-salt softeners about a year ago. I could find no INDEPENDANT tests that prove that they reduce boiler scale or water spots. If anyone does ever find any such testing please post it. 

I don't know enough about chemistry to know if the theory is hogwash or not. My understanding of how they work is as follows: 

Media type: Example "pelican"

A crystal seed site on the media allows calcium carbonate crystals to grow preferentially on the media. When these micro crystals grow to a sufficient size, they break off of the media when the media is tumbled from the water flow. The crystals are now is solid form and not dissolved in the aqueous solution (the potable water). Since the micro crystals have already been grown and are suspended in the water, they pass harmlessly thru heating surfaces and do not form boiler scale crystals.

High frequency electro-magnetic filed type: Example "easy water".

A high frequency electromagnetic field is induced into the pipe via a field fabricated copper coil around the pipe. Said field somehow shocks the aqueous calcium and magnesium ions into forming micro-crystalline salts. The already formed crystals pass harmlessly thru heat exchangers as they have already formed boiler scale crystals in the field.

That is the theory anyway. Does it actually go down that way? Who knows? If it does work as they say, I would think those micro crystals would cause impingement damage to the pipe walls in high velocity areas of the system. My brother works at a medical research lab that has access to an electron microscope. Anyone want to donate a unit so we can scan for micro crystals?

For now, I put no-salt softeners in the snake oil category. I will however install one for any home owner who would like to throw some money away and give me a cut.


And that’s all I have to say about that


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## grandpa

When you search around on these products, there are sometimes references to "government tests" and "industrial appliactions" and such. I don't remember actually reading anything which looked like an approval, or even whether any of these are actually in use in an industrial or government application. 

I was in nuclear submarines. We had to have pure water for the boiler ( steam generator). We got it the old fashioned way....ion exchange resin demineralizer.


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## Tankless

There are no real independant factual documents to support their snake oil. It's the same thing over and over with this stuff....manufacturer promises the world, only if you believe him and only him. I have a guy who's hot to trot on one of these junk systems. I think I will let him buy it and I'll run the gauntlet of tests to see if and what it actually does. I'll reply to Smells thread later, I gotta go to down town LA right now and look at a new apt building that flooded! joy.


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## 1703

I just got off the phone with a long time customer.

About six months ago, his 1970's bruner softener died and he had his heart set on the pelican system.

He made me watch a vid on their website and it was pretty much anti softener propaganda and I stopped paying attn, so I don't even know if it is the type of system you are asking about.

Anyways, he ordered it and I installed it. 

Today he grades it at a 75 out of 100. Mild "hard" water staining on sinks, showers and toilet bowls.

He didn't say it but I got the impression he wished he would have went back with a softener instead.

His area of town routinely tests around 30 grains hard.

I've always been under the impression that those types of systems are better suited for mildly hard water not the real hard stuff, but I really don't know too much about them.


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## breid1903

*sls*

this is really a chemistry problem. i just spend an hr googleing around. i didn't find anything. anything. my guess that there is a reason. try www.chem1.com, aquascams, "catalytic" water softening. by a retired university prof. breid................:rockon:


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## para1

Protech said:


> You should buy one for your house. After that, I've got a great little machine for $4000 that will make your drinking water alkaline and micro oxygenate it. This treated water will make you feel great. :laughing:


 
Maybe they can use one of those in the Gulf of Mexico??


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## Protech

Nice link breid :thumbsup:



breid1903 said:


> this is really a chemistry problem. i just spend an hr googleing around. i didn't find anything. anything. my guess that there is a reason. try www.chem1.com, aquascams, "catalytic" water softening. by a retired university prof. breid................:rockon:


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## nextfox

Hi all,
Just wanted to chime in on this subject that has received a ton of misinformation. Template Assisted Crystallization is sold by several multi-billion dollar companies, including Noritz as mentioned above. It is not a softening technology, it is scale control and it has and continues to be documented as the very best way to prevent scale without wasting water or using chemicals. I assure you that the companies selling it did a lot of testing before launching products. Considering that everything just gets classified as junk if people do not understand the technology, you can be sure they have tested it. Now it is being tested and reported on by the largest University in the U.S. and the results support the technology. Sustainability is a concept that we all have to get our heads into before it is too late for our future generations. You can be a nasayer without having any backing or understanding and slow progress, or you can be a leader that actually advances technology and the general benefit to society.


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## Protech

As of yet, I have been unable to find anyone who could explain how the water is changed chemically. This is highly suspicious....


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## Plumber Jim

nextfox said:


> Hi all,
> Just wanted to chime in on this subject that has received a ton of misinformation. Template Assisted Crystallization is sold by several multi-billion dollar companies, including Noritz as mentioned above. It is not a softening technology, it is scale control and it has and continues to be documented as the very best way to prevent scale without wasting water or using chemicals. I assure you that the companies selling it did a lot of testing before launching products. Considering that everything just gets classified as junk if people do not understand the technology, you can be sure they have tested it. Now it is being tested and reported on by the largest University in the U.S. and the results support the technology. Sustainability is a concept that we all have to get our heads into before it is too late for our future generations. You can be a nasayer without having any backing or understanding and slow progress, or you can be a leader that actually advances technology and the general benefit to society.


What University would that be? And just because they sell it people shouldn't blindly believe they tested it and it worked. And just because other big companies are sell it doesn't mean it works either. That's like saying Johny smokes and so does Bobby so it should be ok. I think the guys on this thread wanted facts not just more blah blah blah.


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## stillaround

Filter systems like Natures Miracle ( a PSI attempt to provide some proprietary product) for well water are *not *a good mix because well water can change more dramatically and the end result is a dissatisfied customer. These granite and charcoal filters are fine but the water should be softened 1st if its hard. Resin softners using salt for wash are the cheapest most effective methods of water treatment for the bulk of well water problems in Florida...unless we're talkin rainsoft from home depot. High pressure sales and a 12k installed system. Ben Franklin could learn a thing or two from them.


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## Redwood

nextfox said:


> Hi all,
> Just wanted to chime in on this subject that has received a ton of misinformation. Template Assisted Crystallization is sold by several multi-billion dollar companies, including Noritz as mentioned above. It is not a softening technology, it is scale control and it has and continues to be documented as the very best way to prevent scale without wasting water or using chemicals. I assure you that the companies selling it did a lot of testing before launching products. Considering that everything just gets classified as junk if people do not understand the technology, you can be sure they have tested it. Now it is being tested and reported on by the largest University in the U.S. and the results support the technology. Sustainability is a concept that we all have to get our heads into before it is too late for our future generations. You can be a nasayer without having any backing or understanding and slow progress, or you can be a leader that actually advances technology and the general benefit to society.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Oh boy looks like the one hit wonders are starting to show up in this thread...
So which one of these snake oil retailers are you affiliated with?
Do you want to post and intro stating your area of expertise in the plumbing field?

Actually I have a much better product called Sleazy Water that I'm selling....
I'll offer it as a special deal to my friends on the zone....
Not only does it do everything these magnets and rf resonation devices do but...

It aligns the lime and calcium deposits with Mars and Venus....
This gives all who drink the treated water a greatly increased sex drive and stamina...
Of course this means that your drinking water will now make the blue pill obsolete...

Pm me if you are interested in becoming a distributor in your area....:laughing:


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## Tommy plumber

nextfox said:


> Hi all,
> Just wanted to chime in on this subject that has received a ton of misinformation. Template Assisted Crystallization is sold by several multi-billion dollar companies, including Noritz as mentioned above. It is not a softening technology, it is scale control and it has and continues to be documented as the very best way to prevent scale without wasting water or using chemicals. I assure you that the companies selling it did a lot of testing before launching products. Considering that everything just gets classified as junk if people do not understand the technology, you can be sure they have tested it. Now it is being tested and reported on by the largest University in the U.S. and the results support the technology. Sustainability is a concept that we all have to get our heads into before it is too late for our future generations. You can be a nasayer without having any backing or understanding and slow progress, or you can be a leader that actually advances technology and the general benefit to society.


 
Just like the companies that manufactured products containing asbestos assured people their products were safe. :whistling2:


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## plbgbiz

nextfox said:


> ...I assure you that the companies selling it did a lot of testing before launching products. Considering that everything just gets classified as junk if people do not understand the technology, you can be sure they have tested it...


First of all, you are not in a position to assure anybody of anything. Based on your all too vague "chiming in" on a technical conversation:

You did not conduct the test,
you do not understand the test,
you don't know what the test should be,
you don't know how long the test took,
you don't know who really conducted the test,
you don't know where the test was performed,
you don't know who started the rumor about the test in the sales meeting,
you don't know exactly when the test was performed,
you don't know if their was a third party test,
you don't know if government agencies were involved in the test,
you don't know what we expect from the test,
you don't know what our customers expect from the test,
you don't know who will represent your company when they are sued over the test,
you don't know who will represent you because of the test lawsuit,
you don't care what happens to us in the test lawsuit...


As a result...you have failed the test.


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## plbgbiz

discussed at length here:

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f7/water-softeners-10337/

Lots of info in that thread including an informative link from Mr. Red.


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## plumbpro

Products are manufactured and released all the time that have not been tested or have limited testing that is biased, then sold to the public. It happens everyday.



nextfox said:


> Hi all,
> Just wanted to chime in on this subject that has received a ton of misinformation. Template Assisted Crystallization is sold by several multi-billion dollar companies, including Noritz as mentioned above. It is not a softening technology, it is scale control and it has and continues to be documented as the very best way to prevent scale without wasting water or using chemicals. I assure you that the companies selling it did a lot of testing before launching products. Considering that everything just gets classified as junk if people do not understand the technology, you can be sure they have tested it. Now it is being tested and reported on by the largest University in the U.S. and the results support the technology. Sustainability is a concept that we all have to get our heads into before it is too late for our future generations. You can be a nasayer without having any backing or understanding and slow progress, or you can be a leader that actually advances technology and the general benefit to society.


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## nextfox

Gentleman,

If you want to bash all of the junk in the market, I will be happy to read it and I am sure I will enjoy it. All of the companies that claim salt- less softening are out to lunch, with the exception of the suppliers of Reverse Osmosis, and the electrically operated CDI and EDI products. 

As professional plumbers I would assume you are up to speed on LEED’s and all of the latest green building trends. If you work with tank less water heaters, I assume you are aware of the Noritz H2Flow. If you work with any of the large contracting and architectural firms, I assume you are aware of the OneFlow product. If not, then you are missing out on some of the largest plumbing jobs in the U.S. Good for you! Some people find it profitable to keep up with technology.

The study I mentioned is funded by the Water Reuse Foundation (you may know them) and Arizona State University, the largest University in the United States, received the grant to do the study. The ASU researchers released a report on November 19th that showed Template Assisted Crystallization to be a very effective scale control technology, not a softener. I believe the figures were that it was about 97% effective at preventing scale. I got on this thread as it started with a question about Template Assisted Crystallization. Then I read all of the less than accurate comments. I just thought I would point to some actual research and some examples of commercial success and opportunities on the thread. It seems to be much more practical compared to some of the streaming consciousness babble posted previously.


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## plbgbiz

nextfox said:


> ...As professional plumbers I would assume you are up to speed on LEED’s and all of the latest green building trends. ....


Yes we are up to speed. The green movement is in large part pushed by faulty science and even more faulty economics driven by people that are forever determined to be attached to the teet of our tax dollars. Without the government robbing my family of money to pay for the "green" movement, there would be no green movement. "Green" reasoning is fostered by the same mindset that dictates we have to refine 37 different types of gasoline depend on what city your in. After all, cars in Chicago won't run on the same gas we use in Oklahoma right?




nextfox said:


> ...The study I mentioned is funded by the Water Reuse Foundation (you may know them) and Arizona State University, the largest University in the United States, received the grant to do the study. The ASU researchers released a report on November 19th that showed Template Assisted Crystallization to be a very effective scale control technology, not a softener....


OK, your finally getting to something worth listening to. So post some legitimate links to real data (not typed by you). For all we know, your a teenager typing quotes from an article in the Mother Earth News.


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## nextfox

Here is one article that is well written on the technology : http://hpac.com/plumbing-piping-pumping/template-assisted-crystallization-1110/index.html

Green building and LEED's presents major opportunities for Plumbers to make money. Saving water or being more environmentally responsible is good for our future generations. If you can do both, you should be commended.

Unfortunately there is nothing posted on the net in regards to the ASU study as of today. I expect it will happen in the next week or so. When it does, I will try to get back to this thread and post a link.

I haven't had time to post my personal information here. Just do not know how to and don't have time now. I wish I was a teenager with the knowledge I have now. The next 30 years would be interesting.

The ASU study, funded by the Water Reuse Foundation was created to put an end to exactly what has been posted on this thread. People go to a forum and ask if anyone knows about a specific technology and the response becomes a bashing playground for the usual suspects that have no clue about the technology to begin with. Thats helpful..

The Water Reuse Foundation wants to provide research that shows which technologies work and which do not work. Simple… It is good for us all as we have to employ sustainable technologies or it will cost us all a lot more long-term. It also represents a value to those of us that like putting our money behind products that are proven. I see it as risk management that someone else is paying for. In this case, it cost a ton. So, I agree to your request and will post the link as soon as I know it is available. I was actually at the presentation on the 19th. I am confident that the news releases will verify my posts. It will also point out the fact that there is some real crap being sold as well.. I love good research information that is free.


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## nextfox

By the way John, there is a huge bid out in your market area currently. Multiple installations that will treat 10,800 gallons of water per minute. It will be 12 sites each with 10" mains and approximately 30 foot stainless reverse return headers on each system. I saw the same design at LA Live. Simply beautiful plumbing. When you see what they put in, you will appreciate this research more.


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## Redwood

nextfox said:


> Here is one article that is well written on the technology : http://hpac.com/plumbing-piping-pumping/template-assisted-crystallization-1110/index.html


Nice Try Bucko! :laughing::whistling2:

The only part of that article that meant anything was the testing on closed loop multiple pass systems which is the only place these units have shown even a promise of delivering on the anti-scaling.:laughing:

Now you take that and try to promise results in an open single pass potable water system...

Along comes the tests like, "The showerheads look cleaner." :thumbup:
Yup you've sold me! :laughing:

Now the big question...
Are You a "Plumbing Professional?"

The Ban Hamster awaits your reply and intro.... :laughing:
Sic Em Rick!


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## SlickRick

Done


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## breid1903

us doe lists asu as #7. breid...............:rockon:


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## breid1903

would this help my enlarged prostrate? breid.............:rockon:


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## tlong

Hi, I saw this thread and couldnt resist. I have a Masters Degree in Chemistry, and to fully disclose right off the bat, I work for a Water Treatment Company in Southern California. With that... these things do not work, period. Anyone who claims otherwise is lying or drinks too much of the LEED coolaid. I will explain why they don't work:

TAC (Template Assisted Crystalization) is real, no doubt, but the only way it works is in CaCO3 super saturated waters. In other words, when the sponge is full. Also required is the lack of heat, (cooler than 80 degrees). 

Calcium is one of only a few ions that are inversely soluble. Most ions become more soluble the higher the temperature; Calcium and Magnesium become less soluble. That's why scale is so prominent in heat transfer surfaces, it is literaly attreacted to the heat. 

Now, in a closed loop, (a truly closed loop) you dont need a softener at all. Even a hot loop, hard water is not cycled in a loop so minerals do not accumulate to a high enough saturation point where scaling is possible. Also, in a chill loop, the temperature is so low that the saturation point is 5 - 10 times higher than in a hot loop. So I dont understand why putting a TAC system on a closed loop is of any benefit other than Placebo. 

Back to how TAC will work. When the solution is super saturated, the calcium will seek either a heat transfer surface or if no heat is available, it is possible to percipitate from solution from a polymeric 'template' that can attract the Ca ion, however, since softeners are used in industrial and potable applications at an entry point to a system (ie a Feedwater Tank, dish washer, etc) the Ca in the system is not cycled nor is it naturally saturated enough where a TAC system will do anything. 

As a matter of fact, and yes this is a fact- there is no water in the world that is naturally saturated up to the point of solubility in its natural environment. It is impossible simply because the Ca would have long since fallen out of solution. So just by this fact alone makes the TAC systems completely useless in all applications that I can possible think of, except maybe for kids Science Projects or something.

And as for LEED? Please... they are nothing but a feel good organization. Any group that would give points for Dolphin Magnetic Water Treatment truly knows nothing about the technology they are endorsing.


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## SlickRick

Anyone need to discuss this with tlong before I pull the trigger?


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## Plumberman

SlickRick said:


> Anyone need to discuss this with tlong before I pull the trigger?


Say bye tlong...


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## SlickRick

Thanks for stopping by tlong.


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## ToUtahNow

Seems like a Chemist in "Water Technology" would be an asset to the site.

Mark


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## smellslike$tome

Tiong, as far as I can tell is the only person in this thread who has offered any actual "facts" as to why TAC will or will not work, which is what I originally asked for. Everybody else has offered nothing but opinion (I hope I haven't missed anything).

Now I am no water chemist so for all I know he could be 100% correct or completely full of crap, but he is the only person who has said "No it's a scam and this is why ..."


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## Plumber Jim

tlong, that was an interesting read. thank you.


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## SlickRick

If you guy's want to discuss this with tlong tonight, I will lift the ban until morn. Speak up it's close to my bed time.


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## Plumber Jim

SlickRick said:


> If you guy's want to discuss this with tlong tonight, I will lift the ban until morn. Speak up it's close to my bed time.


That's cool with me.


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## ToUtahNow

tlong said:


> Hi, I saw this thread and couldnt resist. I have a Masters Degree in Chemistry, and to fully disclose right off the bat, I work for a Water Treatment Company in Southern California. With that... these things do not work, period. Anyone who claims otherwise is lying or drinks too much of the LEED coolaid. I will explain why they don't work:
> 
> TAC (Template Assisted Crystalization) is real, no doubt, but the only way it works is in CaCO3 super saturated waters. In other words, when the sponge is full. Also required is the lack of heat, (cooler than 80 degrees).
> 
> Calcium is one of only a few ions that are inversely soluble. Most ions become more soluble the higher the temperature; Calcium and Magnesium become less soluble. That's why scale is so prominent in heat transfer surfaces, it is literaly attreacted to the heat.
> 
> Now, in a closed loop, (a truly closed loop) you dont need a softener at all. Even a hot loop, hard water is not cycled in a loop so minerals do not accumulate to a high enough saturation point where scaling is possible. Also, in a chill loop, the temperature is so low that the saturation point is 5 - 10 times higher than in a hot loop. So I dont understand why putting a TAC system on a closed loop is of any benefit other than Placebo.
> 
> Back to how TAC will work. When the solution is super saturated, the calcium will seek either a heat transfer surface or if no heat is available, it is possible to percipitate from solution from a polymeric 'template' that can attract the Ca ion, however, since softeners are used in industrial and potable applications at an entry point to a system (ie a Feedwater Tank, dish washer, etc) the Ca in the system is not cycled nor is it naturally saturated enough where a TAC system will do anything.
> 
> As a matter of fact, and yes this is a fact- there is no water in the world that is naturally saturated up to the point of solubility in its natural environment. It is impossible simply because the Ca would have long since fallen out of solution. So just by this fact alone makes the TAC systems completely useless in all applications that I can possible think of, except maybe for kids Science Projects or something.
> 
> And as for LEED? Please... they are nothing but a feel good organization. Any group that would give points for Dolphin Magnetic Water Treatment truly knows nothing about the technology they are endorsing.


So CaCo3 is a Calcium Carbonate and the manufacturer says they are bonding HCO3 with Ca which would be 1-HCO3 short of baking soda. My question is, would the Hydrogen in the formula increase or decrease the pH in the water?

Mark


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## Airgap

The chemistry forums must be slow tonight....


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## tlong

The only way to release hydrogen into the water would be to introduce electrolysis. The manufacture is stating that a catalyst in the form of basically a plastic bead will force CaCO3 into it's argonite form rather than its calcite form. This is theoretically possible, but only when the sponge is full. If the water is capable of retaining more calcium, then the reaction will not happen. Also, in the case of a chiller condenser, the water will favor the high temperature of the condenser tubes and precipitate there as calcite. 

Even if the 'softeners' worked as described, the argonite would reform to calcite at higher temperatures, like those in a condenser tube, dish washer, washing machine, coffee maker, or whatever these guys claim the unit will work on. 

Unfortunately, physics gets in the way of these guys marketing claims.


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## ToUtahNow

Airgap said:


> The chemistry forums must be slow tonight....


Of course this is not just Chemistry it's Water Chemistry. Something most plumbers really don't understand but should.

Mark


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## Airgap

ToUtahNow said:


> Of course this is not just Chemistry it's Water Chemistry. Something most plumbers really don't understand but should.
> 
> Mark


I don't disagree with you Mark, but it's unrealistic to think that the majority of plumbers out there really care....IMO

He's also not going to be able to stay a member because he's not a plumber.


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## tlong

What's the definition of a plumber. I work with plumbers all the time. I do plumbing work myself as it relates to chemical injection into recirculating piping and the like. I am not union, but I can turn wrenches. I realize tho that I am not as gifted as most on this site, but since I am familiar with most aspects of industrial pipe fitting and work closely with mechanincal and plumbing contractors, I might be able to bring some value to the site... maybe?


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## tlong

and of course I have a lot of respect for the plumbing profession... is my nose brown enough yet to become a member?


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## Plumberman

tlong said:


> What's the definition of a plumber. I work with plumbers all the time. I do plumbing work myself as it relates to chemical injection into recirculating piping and the like. I am not union, but I can turn wrenches. I realize tho that I am not as gifted as most on this site, but since I am familiar with most aspects of industrial pipe fitting and work closely with mechanincal and plumbing contractors, I might be able to bring some value to the site... maybe?


Are you licensed by your state plumbing board as a journeyman plumber?


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## tlong

I am really working this now... in addition to water chemistry, I also do a lot of work in regards to corrosion of piping systems as well as heat transfer equipment. I am knowledgable on Microbiological induced corrosion, galvanic processes, under-deposit corrosion... I can help!


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## GREENPLUM

he works for the water treatment plant 

that means he might have some kinda licensing that hasta do with plumbing

i vote to let him stay , think about it


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## Airgap

tlong said:


> What's the definition of a plumber. I work with plumbers all the time. I do plumbing work myself as it relates to chemical injection into recirculating piping and the like. I am not union, but I can turn wrenches. I realize tho that I am not as gifted as most on this site, but since I am familiar with most aspects of industrial pipe fitting and work closely with mechanincal and plumbing contractors, I might be able to bring some value to the site... maybe?


It's nothing personal. You've already brought value to the site. It's just the way the forum is set up. The staff will talk it over as to how long you can post on the forum...


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## tlong

GREENPLUM said:


> he works for the water treatment plant
> 
> that means he might have some kinda licensing that hasta do with plumbing
> 
> i vote to let him stay , think about it


Thanks! 

I dont work for a water treatment plant; I do industrial water treatment. Mostly for HVAC and Power Plants. I treat the water so it doesnt destroy the equipment and piping all you fine folks installed!


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## tlong

Airgap said:


> It's nothing personal. You've already brought value to the site. It's just the way the forum is set up. The staff will talk it over as to how long you can post on the forum...


No worries. If you would like though, you can post my email address somewhere convenient and if people have questions or something in regards to anything I would be happy to help. 

Thanks for giving me my 15 minutes tho- I appreciate it!


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## Airgap

tlong said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I dont work for a water treatment plant; I do industrial water treatment. Mostly for HVAC and Power Plants. I treat the water so it doesnt destroy the equipment and piping all you fine folks installed!


You're winning me over, but I can't speak for the others. I might just be tired.....


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## ToUtahNow

tlong said:


> I am really working this now... in addition to water chemistry, I also do a lot of work in regards to corrosion of piping systems as well as heat transfer equipment. I am knowledgable on Microbiological induced corrosion, galvanic processes, under-deposit corrosion... I can help!


What treatment do you feel is better a Zinc Orthophosphate or a Poly Orthophosphate. I read a study from a University I believe was in Missouri that claimed Poly Orthophosphate actually increased corrosion.

Mark


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## Protech

Well said stranger. Your alright in my book :thumbsup:



tlong said:


> The only way to release hydrogen into the water would be to introduce electrolysis. The manufacture is stating that a catalyst in the form of basically a plastic bead will force CaCO3 into it's argonite form rather than its calcite form. This is theoretically possible, but only when the sponge is full. If the water is capable of retaining more calcium, then the reaction will not happen. Also, in the case of a chiller condenser, the water will favor the high temperature of the condenser tubes and precipitate there as calcite.
> 
> Even if the 'softeners' worked as described, the argonite would reform to calcite at higher temperatures, like those in a condenser tube, dish washer, washing machine, coffee maker, or whatever these guys claim the unit will work on.
> 
> Unfortunately, physics gets in the way of these guys marketing claims.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

He most definitely beats port- o- potty tech and I thought that's where we stood 
The man sounds like a wealth of plumbing knowledge 

Thanks tlong


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## tlong

ToUtahNow said:


> What treatment do you feel is better a Zinc Orthophosphate or a Poly Orthophosphate. I read a study from a University I believe was in Missouri that claimed Poly Orthophosphate actually increased corrosion.
> 
> Mark


You are correct Sir, Orthophosphate is very sensitive to water quality. High salt content in water along with orhtophosphate will promote localized pitting in mild steel. Also, it is very sensitive to pH. Below a pH of 7.5 the layer of protection that is formed on mild steel by orthophosphate called ferric phosphate becomes soluble and therefore leaves the steel surfaces open to attack. 

Another problem with Orthophosphate is the scaling caused at moderately high pH or very hard waters. When the pH gets above 8.3 or so, the orthophosphate converts to CaPO4, (calcium phosphate) and scales. It is not neary as hard as CaCO3, but it is just as problematic as far as heat transfer or inhibiting flow in piping. The reason this is related to corrosion is because now that all the phosphate has reverted to a solid, there is no corrosion inhibitor left in the water.

Zinc Orthophosphate is used when the pH is on the lower end of 7.5. The zinc is a cathodic corrosion inhibitor that aides with the corrosion protection where the pH is borderline.


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## tlong

I just realized I didnt answer your question. Chromate is by far the best corrosion inhibitor, but thanks to Erin Brockovich you cant use it. 

For super hard waters with a pH of 6.5 to 8.0 I would recommend polyphosphate. Polyphosphate combines with Ca to for a microscopic layer of calcium polyphosphate that protects mild steel. The layer is invisible to the naked eye; although this is where the myth came from bad water treatment when a chiller scales and the water treatment guy says the scale is there to protect the tubes...???

For soft waters, I would recommend a zinc-phosphonate inhibitor using AMP (aminotrimethylenephosphonic acid) The effective pH is 7 - 9 with this.

Does that help?


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## tlong

nextfox said:


> Gentleman,
> 
> If you want to bash all of the junk in the market, I will be happy to read it and I am sure I will enjoy it. All of the companies that claim salt- less softening are out to lunch, with the exception of the suppliers of Reverse Osmosis, and the electrically operated CDI and EDI products.
> 
> As professional plumbers I would assume you are up to speed on LEED’s and all of the latest green building trends. If you work with tank less water heaters, I assume you are aware of the Noritz H2Flow. If you work with any of the large contracting and architectural firms, I assume you are aware of the OneFlow product. If not, then you are missing out on some of the largest plumbing jobs in the U.S. Good for you! Some people find it profitable to keep up with technology.
> 
> The study I mentioned is funded by the Water Reuse Foundation (you may know them) and Arizona State University, the largest University in the United States, received the grant to do the study. The ASU researchers released a report on November 19th that showed Template Assisted Crystallization to be a very effective scale control technology, not a softener. I believe the figures were that it was about 97% effective at preventing scale. I got on this thread as it started with a question about Template Assisted Crystallization. Then I read all of the less than accurate comments. I just thought I would point to some actual research and some examples of commercial success and opportunities on the thread. It seems to be much more practical compared to some of the streaming consciousness babble posted previously.


Last post (yeah right). This OneFlow is made by Watts. It is crap. Several units were installed in a major hospital just two months ago. They were using it to soften the feed water on a steam boiler... the boilers scaled up within a month. Brand new Fulton boilers scaled to hell. The OneFlow tanks are in a land fill somewhere now. 

What netfox is missing is that maybe there is a lot of work for crap technology like this, but I think I will pass on it so I can keep my reputation intact. That will be more benificial in the long run.

What's funny is that the Watts rep said we cycled the boilers too high and that's why they scaled. When I told him that these cycles were that a traditional softener could handle he tried to say "yeah but your green and no brine discharge". Well BS my friends. Here's where all of the greenies fall apart: The amount of additional natural gas you have to use by lowering the cycles was equivalent to neary $400,000 per year for these two 400 hp boilers. The amount of additional CO2 introduced into the atmosphere because of the extra natural gas would have equaled over 8,200 metric tons per year. Now I dont care about CO2 or global warming, but LEED claims to, so where is the true "Green" technology... traditional softeners are a hell of a lot greener than anything out there except for membranes (Reverse Osmosis & Nano Filtration) and those are pricey. So whenever someone says it's green, 99% of the time it's not... they just want your green


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## Plumbdog

Thanks tlong for all the useful info. I vote you stay.:thumbsup:


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## nhmaster3015

Everyone....go here http://www.chem1.com/CQ/index.html read this.


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## OptiTech

*Independent Test Results*

I recently spoke with the OneFlow product manager and he did not recommend it for closed-loop systems. We have had success with template assisted crystallization in a large number of single pass applications. Here is a link for a recent presentation done at the Water Reuse Conference that many of you might find interesting.

https://www.watereuse.org/sites/default/files/u3/Peter Fox.pdf

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) water chemistry is very complex and there are as many variations in water make up as there are stars in the sky and the different applications add to the challenges. Like most water treatment solutions, TAC is not the single perfect silver bullet solution but it has its merits in the right applications within the boundaries of what it is capable of.

The single most frustrating thing about this kind of technology is that to date, there is not a viable, easy-to-perform field test that proves the technology is working. The test above is the first non-biased, fact-based measurement of the effectiveness of the different alternative to softeners technology. It is worth looking at, the industry needed this type of non-emotional, non-anecdotal analysis.

For the uninitiated, there are still people out there that do not believe that we ever landed on the moon and that it was staged.


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## easttexasplumb

Water just drink it.:yes:


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## Redwood

OptiTech said:


> I recently spoke with the OneFlow product manager and he did not recommend it for closed-loop systems. We have had success with template assisted crystallization in a large number of single pass applications. Here is a link for a recent presentation done at the Water Reuse Conference that many of you might find interesting.
> 
> https://www.watereuse.org/sites/default/files/u3/Peter%20Fox.pdf
> 
> Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) water chemistry is very complex and there are as many variations in water make up as there are stars in the sky and the different applications add to the challenges. Like most water treatment solutions, TAC is not the single perfect silver bullet solution but it has its merits in the right applications within the boundaries of what it is capable of.
> 
> The single most frustrating thing about this kind of technology is that to date, there is not a viable, easy-to-perform field test that proves the technology is working. The test above is the first non-biased, fact-based measurement of the effectiveness of the different alternative to softeners technology. It is worth looking at, the industry needed this type of non-emotional, non-anecdotal analysis.
> 
> For the uninitiated, there are still people out there that do not believe that we ever landed on the moon and that it was staged.


I have no problem believing that Apollo 11's LEM Module landed at the Sea Of Tranquility....

But I do have a very difficult time believing that any of that any of that VooDoo crap you are pushing works....

Now I'm going to glean a few useful tidbits out of the information you have provided... Thank you... :thumbup:


OneFlow product manager said he did not recommend it for closed-loop systems.

TAC is not the single perfect silver bullet solution.

To date, there is not a viable, easy-to-perform field test that proves the technology is working.

The Study You cited essentially says that ElectroMagnetic and Electrically Induced Precipitation doesn't work...

But it is 2 times better than nothing at all... :laughing:
% Ca in scale formed 
EIP: 34.88
MAG: 34.88

Ca as CaCO3 Found on Heating Element and Bath (g)
No Treatment: 8.36
EIP: 4.07
MAG: 4.86


Total calcium formed during test (g Ca as CaCO3)
No Treatment: 24.92
EIP: 13.40
MAG: 13.20

I love it now that you Snake Oil Peddlers are now starting to rank on each others bogus technology... :laughing:

Now we'll just wait for the other side to show up and drop a big ol Cleveland Steamer on your products with a study that says TAC and CDI doesn't work...:thumbup:

One thing for sure they don't dare include a conventional water softener that uses the Ion Exchange Method in the study... :whistling2: :laughing:

Have a Nice Day!

Oh By The Way...
Have we met?
Read This... http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/why-post-intro-11368/

And remember this forum is for...


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## grandpa

When the Navy starts using something OTHER than ion resin exchange to demineralize the primary coolant water in nuclear reactors, then so will I.


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## nhmaster3015

This scam never seems to go away. You can go back close to 100 years and find the same claims by snake oil salesmen. Within a year of Edison, Tesla and Westinghouse making electricity available to the general public there were companies making magnetic and electronic water conditioners. They didn't work then and they don't work now. Unfortunatly companies like Easy Water have the money to invest heavily in advertising and...most often that advertising is done on talk radio shows by hosts that are supposed to be stand up guys. Does anybody here really believe that Sean Hannity has an Easy Water strapped to his water pipes? These companies are selling snake oil. Now if you will excuse me I have to finish up this article on another gigantic scam perpetrated on the American public and that would be Bio-Fuels.

Oh an Tlong, you are dead on target here, thank you. I hope they let you stick around and....there are other sites that could use your two cents also


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## Redwood

In other Magnetic News.... :laughing:


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## PlumbersSanJose

If you don't believe in the product don't sell it.


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## PlumbersSanJose

Magnet boy makes me worry about my magnetic bracelet...


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## OptiTech

*ASU Study*

The reason why the ASU study did not include softeners is because the purpose of the study is to determine if there are viable alternatives to softeners. The reason they are doing this is due to the public focus on the negative aspects of ion exchange water softening. There are regions where ion exchange water softening is being restricted, regardless of the positive aspect of softening water. This is usually in areas where high salinity levels have negatively impacted the costs involved in water reuse. 

Therefore, the ASU study is looking at several different types of alternative technologies to reduce scaling. Please don't lump all of the alternative technologies in to the "Snake Oil" category with the magnets. Template Assisted Crystallization is NOT a magnet, electro-magnet, radio-frequency or a sacrificial anode. 

TAC has its limitations, I would not use it where iron or copper is present or where all the water is evaporated away and concentrations exceed saturation point.

It has proven to be very successful on tank and tankless water heaters and steam generating devices that blow down daily.

Every industry and or trade has its charlatans, weak practitioners, abusers, and we see misapplication, abuse, misuse, and various forms of it on a regular basis. And there will certainly be people that try to misapply TAC or present it as a water softener (which it is not).

The TAC technology is worth a try and worth considering for the right application.


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## Airgap

OptiTech said:


> The reason why the ASU study did not include softeners is because the purpose of the study is to determine if there are viable alternatives to softeners. The reason they are doing this is due to the public focus on the negative aspects of ion exchange water softening. There are regions where ion exchange water softening is being restricted, regardless of the positive aspect of softening water. This is usually in areas where high salinity levels have negatively impacted the costs involved in water reuse.
> 
> Therefore, the ASU study is looking at several different types of alternative technologies to reduce scaling. Please don't lump all of the alternative technologies in to the "Snake Oil" category with the magnets. Template Assisted Crystallization is NOT a magnet, electro-magnet, radio-frequency or a sacrificial anode.
> 
> TAC has its limitations, I would not use it where iron or copper is present or where all the water is evaporated away and concentrations exceed saturation point.
> 
> It has proven to be very successful on tank and tankless water heaters and steam generating devices that blow down daily.
> 
> Every industry and or trade has its charlatans, weak practitioners, abusers, and we see misapplication, abuse, misuse, and various forms of it on a regular basis. And there will certainly be people that try to misapply TAC or present it as a water softener (which it is not).
> 
> The TAC technology is worth a try and worth considering for the right application.


 
*Hello! Introduction Requested* 
An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/.

The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession)

Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field.

This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is.

We look forward to your valuable input.




Actually, we all really know why you're not giving an intro....I'll deal with that in a few hours anyway....


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## whisperingsage

I found an interesting review on this including anothe technology that is competitive called CDI, but I can't find in the document the meaning of CDI yet. There is a comparison of the magnet vs other methods. It is a study put out by AZ state U. http://www.scribd.com/doc/88814993/Arizona-State-University-Water-Soft-Ner-Study I see ion exchange has some great benefits, but we have a well and cannot be discharging brine back into our ground water, that is a bad idea. The pics of heating elements for the TAC and CDI units are encouraging.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Miss I'm sorry but you won't get help here!! This is a site for professionals in the pipe trades and we don't like to give our knowledge out for free. Not to be rude just honest. Best of luck


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

One tip. Who says you have to put brine solution back in to the ground ??


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## whisperingsage

*brine solution*

Well, then where do you suggest I put it? I live 4 miles from the nearest public road and there is no sewer system here. Should I dry it out and then do what? Can't put it in the garden it will poison the plants.


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## whisperingsage

TX MECH PLUMBER If I can't get real knowledgable professionals here where I live then charge me for your information. I have an online soil agronomist that I use for soil testing and advice, and he is very prescious to me. And I am happy to pay him. I don't believe in withholding from the ox that treadeth out the corn. There's just so few that know here where I live. I have to do everything myself. It's not that I like it.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

For the rite money you can get someone ther. As for me pumps and well and softeners isn't what I do but a plumber on here mite be willing to work with you!!

P's the one the ground far from you well and garden

She's a preachers wife guys I had to throw her a bone lol


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## RW Plumbing

tlong said:


> Last post (yeah right). This OneFlow is made by Watts. It is crap. Several units were installed in a major hospital just two months ago. They were using it to soften the feed water on a steam boiler... the boilers scaled up within a month. Brand new Fulton boilers scaled to hell. The OneFlow tanks are in a land fill somewhere now.
> 
> What netfox is missing is that maybe there is a lot of work for crap technology like this, but I think I will pass on it so I can keep my reputation intact. That will be more benificial in the long run.
> 
> What's funny is that the Watts rep said we cycled the boilers too high and that's why they scaled. When I told him that these cycles were that a traditional softener could handle he tried to say "yeah but your green and no brine discharge". Well BS my friends. Here's where all of the greenies fall apart: The amount of additional natural gas you have to use by lowering the cycles was equivalent to neary $400,000 per year for these two 400 hp boilers. The amount of additional CO2 introduced into the atmosphere because of the extra natural gas would have equaled over 8,200 metric tons per year. Now I dont care about CO2 or global warming, but LEED claims to, so where is the true "Green" technology... traditional softeners are a hell of a lot greener than anything out there except for membranes (Reverse Osmosis & Nano Filtration) and those are pricey. So whenever someone says it's green, 99% of the time it's not... they just want your green


I vote this guy stays. You guys know me, I'm one of the biggest jerks here. He can help us out in an area I feel many of us, myself included are weak on. Water treatment is a very lucrative market and I for one would like to have a chemist to be able to she'd some light on the stuff out there.


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