# Lead allowed in Solder



## VanCityPlumber (Dec 11, 2010)

This is my first post here, but, why do we continue to allow lead to be used in solder for potable water use. There is a small ammount still allowed, why is that?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Ask yourself why is up to 8% lead allowable in copper pipe, tubing and fittings? Powerful lobbyists is what I'd say.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

VanCity Plumber said:


> This is my first post here, but, why do we continue to allow lead to be used in solder for potable water use. There is a small amount still allowed, why is that?


Who says you are allowed to still use lead solder?

Mark


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

ToUtahNow said:


> Who says you are allowed to still use lead solder?
> 
> Mark


 


I think he's talking about "Lead-Free" solder being allowed to have up to 0.2% lead content.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> Ask yourself why is up to 8% lead allowable in copper pipe, tubing and fittings? Powerful lobbyists is what I'd say.


Copper pipe is something like 99.99% pure copper.

Mark


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

ToUtahNow said:


> Copper pipe is something like 99.99% pure copper.
> 
> Mark


 
OK I'll give you that if it's new pipe. What about re-cycled copper, from old bldgs when 50/50 solder was used?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

ToUtahNow said:


> Copper pipe is something like 99.99% pure copper.
> 
> Mark


 
Actually I remember an episode of Modern Marvels and it talked about copper for electrical wire being 99.99% pure copper for conductive purposes. I don't remember the percentage of copper in tubing, but I don't think it was 99.99%, just sayin' I am not a metallurgist.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> Actually I remember an episode of Modern Marvels and it talked about copper for electrical wire being 99.99% pure copper for conductive purposes. I don't remember the percentage of copper in tubing, but I don't think it was 99.99%, just sayin' I am not a metallurgist.


One of the reasons copper rarely if ever has manufactures defects is it is pure copper rather than an alloy. Brass and Bronze are both copper alloys but copper tubing is the real thing.

Mark


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

ToUtahNow said:


> One of the reasons copper rarely if ever has manufactures defects is it is pure copper rather than an alloy. Brass and Bronze are both copper alloys but copper tubing is the real thing.
> 
> Mark


 
Agreed, I know that brass is an alloy of copper and zinc, and bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, but then why does the code book allow, (I am not saying it contains 8%) up to 8% lead? I am asking, I am not sure.


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## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

Generally speaking, the presence of a small amount of lead alloyed with another metal increases the machinability of the other metal.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> Agreed, I know that brass is an alloy of copper and zinc, and bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, but then why does the code book allow, (I am not saying it contains 8%) up to 8% lead? I am asking, I am not sure.


I have both an ICC and UPC inspectors certificate and no where in either codes does it allow copper to be anything other than copper. Since you are in Florida I am guessing you are looking at 605.2.1 which allows water pipes and fittings (not copper) to have up to 8% lead. I will bet money everything in plumbing will be lead-free within 5-years.

Mark


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

You're in Calif. and NSF 61 Annex G is code there, I think. Here in FLA, some towns will fail a final plumbing inspection if faucets don't have NSF 61 on them. I believe Annex G lowers the lead content of the wetted area to less than 0.25%. But that newer Annex G has yet to be adopted universally.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> You're in Calif. and NSF 61 Annex G is code there, I think. Here in FLA, some towns will fail a final plumbing inspection if faucets don't have NSF 61 on them. I believe Annex G lowers the lead content of the wetted area to less than 0.25%. But that newer Annex G has yet to be adopted universally.


Of course "yet" being the key word. The argument against lead free has been it could not be done. Now that it is being done I believe manufacturers will move to make all of plumbing lead-free before it is mandated.

Mark


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Speaking of lead....


Delta faucets is still making brass bodied faucets...no way this is overstock or old lots coming out. 


I thought it was supposed to be an all plastic body. I will say the plastic shanks are heavy, fine threaded but I'm curious what it'll be like 20 years from now when it has to be removed.


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## PlumberDave (Jan 4, 2009)

Some manufacturers do use a bismuth brass instead of leaded brass. T&S, Wolverine, Chicago and the like which have met "lead free" standards since "lead free" was a topic.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I think all of this lead free craze is BS. Lead based paint too.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Chciago Faucet had to retool a few years back to be able to machine lead free brass. 



Tommy plumber said:


> OK I'll give you that if it's new pipe. What about re-cycled copper, from old bldgs when 50/50 solder was used?


Most codes do not allow you to use "used" fittings and pipe.



Tommy plumber said:


> Agreed, I know that brass is an alloy of copper and zinc, and bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, but then why does the code book allow, (I am not saying it contains 8%) up to 8% lead? I am asking, I am not sure.


I been noticing at my supply house that some of the bronze fittings and valves I have been buying have a label in their boxes stating the product meets the new lead free requirements. As ToUtahNow state many manufactures are not going to be making products with lead in any more. Why should they make two of the same fittings one with lead and one with out lead. It would be in their best interest to just make lead free products period for the whole nation. This way they do not have to worry what they sell where. And keep their inventory pretty much level.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> Chciago Faucet had to retool a few years back to be able to machine lead free brass.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I didn't mean to re-use material; I meant the scrap that goes to the recycling facilities. Alot of the old copper pipe and fittings get re-used and 
can wind up in new parts.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> I didn't mean to re-use material; I meant the scrap that goes to the recycling facilities. Alot of the old copper pipe and fittings get re-used and
> can wind up in new parts.


 Ah I see. Well lower purity scrap is usually refined to attain the desired purity level by an electroplating process in which the copper scrap is dissolved into a bath of sulfuric acid and then electroplated out of the solution. Which will leave behind the lead and other impurities. http://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/innovations/1998/06/recycle_overview.html


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*lead free is a joke*

everything going lead free is going to be a total disaster... 

look at the crappy delta faucets on the market today..
they are junk....... all just to kiss californias ass...

our supply house has switched to Kohler faucets becasue of all the defects with the Delta crap out there......

its totally absurd to mandate this to be 100% lead free in everything..

... I feel it is good enough as it is already with the nickle solder..... this has already solved most of the problems. they were having in the first place.:yes:


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> everything going lead free is going to be a total disaster...
> 
> look at the crappy delta faucets on the market today..
> they are junk....... all just to kiss californias ass...
> ...


I am already seeing issues with the lead free T&S faucets. The seats are being eaten up by the hot and cold water. Chicago faucets answer is coming out with the ceramic disk replacement cartridge for the old standby.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*job security*



SewerRatz said:


> I am already seeing issues with the lead free T&S faucets. The seats are being eaten up by the hot and cold water. Chicago faucets answer is coming out with the ceramic disk replacement cartridge for the old standby.


 
you are up late tonight....

you have to look at it as job security, 
no matter how stupid you think it is


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## braindead (May 29, 2010)

How about the thousands of miles of lead water pipe still installed through-out the country?:blink:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

braindead said:


> How about the thousands of miles of lead water pipe still installed through-out the country?:blink:


 
You can still install it if it's lead-free. :laughing:


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## plumb4fun (Feb 18, 2009)

Since the new "No lead law" went into effect, I have hundreds of Chicago, Hawes, and Central Brass faucets at the school district that I cannot get parts for because they don't make "no lead" replacements yet, or may never. Replacing all the faucets at once is not an option for the cash strapped schools at this time. We all went to these same types of schools and we are not dead yet!:no:


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## braindead (May 29, 2010)

>>>We all went to these same types of schools and we are not dead yet!...

But look at the strange way we are acting!:icon_rolleyes::tongue_smilie::brows::tt2:


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

VanCityPlumber said:


> This is my first post here, but, why do we continue to allow lead to be used in solder for potable water use. There is a small ammount still allowed, why is that?


How come nobody jumped down this guys f***ing throat for an introduction... Lol!


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

U.A.til.I.die said:


> How come nobody jumped down this guys f***ing throat for an introduction... Lol!


Get over it dude... You got off easy compared to some...Move on


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

U.A.til.I.die said:


> How come nobody jumped down this guys f***ing throat for an introduction... Lol!


Would you point to where someone jumped down your throat.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Airgap said:


> Get over it dude... You got off easy compared to some...Move on


C'mon, now I can't even have fun with it? It's just a joke man.. Making light of a situation. Trust me, I'm over it


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

U.A.til.I.die said:


> How come nobody jumped down this guys f***ing throat for an introduction... Lol!


It all depends on which *Azzhole* answered your post first :laughing::jester:


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

U.A.til.I.die said:


> C'mon, now I can't even have fun with it? It's just a joke man.. Making light of a situation. Trust me, I'm over it


Riiiggghhhht....


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## Kevan (Jul 5, 2010)

I was raised in houses and schools that had lead solder in the plumbing and I'm convinced that I'm going to die one day. And my sister, too. My parents are already dead. it's just awful.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

I had a customer who was doing a remodel, when they removed her cabinets in the kitchen, she saw that the drain arm was lead. The lady freaked out did'nt want any lead in her house, I replaced the lead arm with pvc, then told her that there were problably several other lead drains in the house. I explained that I would have to cut open walls for access. She then decided to take care of it later, so just for fun I told her about the 50 percent lead solder that was used on the copper water lines. :laughing:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

easttexasplumb said:


> I had a customer who was doing a remodel, when they removed her cabinets in the kitchen, she saw that the drain arm was lead. The lady freaked out did'nt want any lead in her house, I replaced the lead arm with pvc, then told her that there were problably several other lead drains in the house. I explained that I would have to cut open walls for access. She then decided to take care of it later, so just for fun I told her about the 50 percent lead solder that was used on the copper water lines. :laughing:


 

:laughing::laughing::laughing: Great great I love it.......


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## J.J (Mar 24, 2010)

skol still has traces of lead in there chew and no one complains i chew everyday and i still not to stupid:thumbsup:


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