# To Braze or Not to Braze



## Tommy plumber

A while back a thread touched on the subject of repairing copper water pipe underneath a slab-on-grade building. Some said the line in question needs to be brazed others said it was fine to 'soft-solder' the water line. For years and years I was always taught by other plumbers in the field that a copper water line below a slab is to be brazed. I never bothered to verify it by checking the code book, I just accepted what I was told.

Recently however, I decided to check the veracity of the idea that a copper water line is to be brazed under a slab. So I got out my 2007 Florida Plumbing Code book, and looked, but I found nothing. So I checked the 2004 code book, then the 2001, then finally my 1994 code book. Nowhere could I find anything with regard to repairing a copper water line below the slab. 

So what gives? What say you? 



PS: I eventually found the answer. But I'd like to see some responses.


----------



## Protech

Not needed.

Btw, I have never in over ten years of plumbing found a brazed joint under a slab. We are talking hundreds slabs here..........food for thought.


----------



## easttexasplumb

ever heard of shark bites :laughing:


----------



## rocksteady

Can't you guys in Florida bury a garden hose under a slab? :laughing::laughing::laughing:



I always braze copper under slab. If the pipe is too thin for the heat, I'll soft solder it.








Paul


----------



## TallCoolOne

Under Slab in Dallas area we braze, I too have been told by many other plumbers that solder is not allowed under slab.

The last couple of years I have been using ProPress for underslab repairs. Sometimes when we do a Sewer Slab leak the water pipes will get cut or knicked while digging.

ProPress is a timesaver for underslab leaks


----------



## gitnerdun

The only time I've had to deal with brazed pipes was when a A/C guy/homeowner installed his own water htr. What a PITA, Different size pipes and fittings. That's what sawzalls are for.

BTW I was taught that fittings under slab were not allowed, nowhere does it state that in the code. I can remember the boss telling us to hide a coupling when one roll of copper was not long enough.


----------



## SlickRick

No joints at all allowed on water under a slab here. When a repair is made on copper, it is required to be brazed.


----------



## RealLivePlumber

gitnerdun said:


> The only time I've had to deal with brazed pipes was when a A/C guy/homeowner installed his own water htr. What a PITA, Different size pipes and fittings. That's what sawzalls are for.
> 
> BTW I was taught that fittings under slab were not allowed, nowhere does it state that in the code. I can remember the boss telling us to hide a coupling when one roll of copper was not long enough.


:laughing:
That's funny. Did he think the inspector would think you special ordered the extra long roll?


----------



## gplumb

Here in Chicago our code allows flared fittings or brazing, no soldering underground.


----------



## Protech

Yeah, that makes allot of sense..........

So a flare joint is better that a soldered joint huh?



gplumb said:


> Here in Chicago our code allows flared fittings or brazing, no soldering underground.


----------



## Titan Plumbing

Protech said:


> Yeah, that makes allot of sense..........
> 
> So a flare joint is better that a soldered joint huh?


Yeah, and in Chicago you better not use any of that crappy plastic pipe either. :whistling2:


----------



## Pipe Rat

Protech said:


> Not needed.
> 
> Btw, I have never in over ten years of plumbing found a brazed joint under a slab. We are talking hundreds slabs here..........food for thought.


Thats because you have no reason to break into a slab with brazed joints. :whistling2:


----------



## Protech

How do you figure?



Pipe Rat said:


> Thats because you have no reason to break into a slab with brazed joints. :whistling2:


----------



## Pipe Rat

Just jerkin' around with ya :laughing: I know you guys have problems with the pipe in general in your area :laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## easttexasplumb

Maybe one day they will make copperbond with high levels of silver in it for underslab use. :laughing::laughing:


----------



## Tommy plumber

So, as I originally posted, I wasn't able to find any info with regard to brazing copper water lines below a slab in my plumbing code book. I had to search the Building code book. There it states the following: *P2904.14 Underground Joints*......"Joints in copper pipe or tube installed in a concrete floor slab or under a concrete floor slab on grade shall be installed using wrought-copper fittings and brazed joints."


----------



## Tommy plumber

slickrick said:


> No joints at all allowed on water under a slab here. When a repair is made on copper, it is required to be brazed.[/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Rick was correct, which isn't surprising since in addition to being a master plumber, he was also chief plumbing inspector in his county.


----------



## SlickRick

Tommy, this may be a little off this topic, but it does include joints under a slab in this jurisdiction near DFW. IPC that has been heavily amended.


http://www.grapevinetexas.gov/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=QvJESXc0S6k%3D&tabid=174&mid=471


----------



## Titan Plumbing

I know this is a little off topic as well, but when PVC passes thru a concrete beam horizontally, it must be sleeved and when it passes thru vertically it must be wrapped in plastic/cardboard sheathing. This is Fort Worth and several other Municipalities that follow their lead. Fort Worth heavily amends the IPC Code as well.


----------



## Protech

So when building a brand new house underslab joints must be brazed, but repairs or new commercial can be soft soldered? Yeah, that makes allot of sense .

I think that was a mistake and no one has noticed it. Again, I've NEVER seen a brazed joint under slab (new or old) on a potable water system. In fact, I would be willing to wager that no one in central florida can even find me a ground rough with brazed joints right now (jobs that started before this post only please).



Tommy plumber said:


> So, as I originally posted, I wasn't able to find any info with regard to brazing copper water lines below a slab in my plumbing code book. I had to search the Building code book. There it states the following: *P2904.14 Underground Joints*......"Joints in copper pipe or tube installed in a concrete floor slab or under a concrete floor slab on grade shall be installed using wrought-copper fittings and brazed joints."


----------



## Protech

Also:

*2901.1 Scope.* The provisions of this chapter and the _Florida__ Building__ Code, Plumbing_ shall govern the erection, installation, alteration, repairs, relocation, replacement, addition to, use or maintenance of plumbing equipment and systems. Plumbing systems and equipment shall be constructed, installed and maintained in accordance with the _Florida Building Code, Plumbing._


So, by this provision, your *P2904.14 *provision would only apply to new construction of residential homes only. Seems pretty silly that they would require brazing on resi and allow soft solder on commercial.


I will certainly be calling my local building officials for clarification on Monday.


----------



## SlickRick

Protech said:


> So when building a brand new house underslab joints must be brazed, but repairs or new commercial can be soft soldered? Yeah, that makes allot of sense .
> 
> I think that was a mistake and no one has noticed it. Again, I've NEVER seen a brazed joint under slab (new or old) on a potable water system. In fact, I would be willing to wager that no one in central florida can even find me a ground rough with brazed joints right now (jobs that started before this post only please).


Ken, I see where your codes say that copper joints must be brazed on (under slab) new, alterations and repairs. Is there another section that refers to soft solder of joints?


----------



## Protech

I was only able to find it under the residential code. Nothing in plumbing, building, existing codes though.

Which code did you find to support it?



slickrick said:


> Ken, I see where your codes say that copper joints must be brazed on (under slab) new, alterations and repairs. Is there another section that refers to soft solder of joints?


----------



## SlickRick

It looks to me that you can do most anything in FL.

I would like to compare the IPC (which they say is the bases) with the Fl plumbing code, side by side, and see how much they actually used. I bet each jurisdiction has added a substantial amount of amendments to what I am reading online.


----------



## Tommy plumber

Protech said:


> Not needed.
> 
> Btw, I have never in over ten years of plumbing found a brazed joint under a slab. We are talking hundreds slabs here..........food for thought.


 

That is to be expected. When I did new construction, we looped copper water lines without joints. This was intentional. So it is to be expected that you wouldn't find joints under a slab, brazed or otherwise, because they were not usually put there in the first place.
But I would presume that brazing would apply equally to a new install or a repair. Because in reality, how can a repair be made in a copper line under a slab without a joint?

I really was speaking to repairs when I started this thread.


----------



## Tommy plumber

Protech said:


> Also:
> 
> *2901.1 Scope.* The provisions of this chapter and the _Florida__ Building__ Code, Plumbing_ shall govern the erection, installation, alteration, repairs, relocation, replacement, addition to, use or maintenance of plumbing equipment and systems. Plumbing systems and equipment shall be constructed, installed and maintained in accordance with the _Florida Building Code, Plumbing._
> 
> 
> So, by this provision, your *P2904.14 *provision would only apply to new construction of residential homes only. Seems pretty silly that they would require brazing on resi and allow soft solder on commercial.
> 
> 
> I will certainly be calling my local building officials for clarification on Monday.


 
I wouldn't assume that the brazing provision doesn't apply to commercial. It probably would apply to commercial by extension or some type of incorporation clause.


----------



## Protech

I spent 1/2 an hour scanning through the 4 code books that would apply. I could find nothing anywhere except that one provision you found in the residential code.

To me, that would mean it would only apply to residential and not commercial or work done on existing structures. If that was the case you would find that provision in the existing and building/plumbing books ya?




Tommy plumber said:


> I wouldn't assume that the brazing provision doesn't apply to commercial. It probably would apply to commercial by extension or some type of incorporation clause.


----------



## Protech

I personally installed soft soldered hard copper under slab in several fire stations and the Truly Nolan building off of I-4 in Orlando. I personally saw the inspect look at those joints and sign off on them. This was about 5-6 years ago and that provision was in effect at that time. I don't know about homes built in the past few years because 99% have gone to cpvc or pex.



Tommy plumber said:


> *That is to be expected. When I did new construction, we looped copper water lines without joints. This was intentional. So it is to be expected that you wouldn't find joints under a slab, brazed or otherwise, because they were not usually put there in the first place.*
> But I would presume that brazing would apply equally to a new install or a repair. Because in reality, how can a repair be made in a copper line under a slab without a joint?
> 
> I really was speaking to repairs when I started this thread.


----------



## SlickRick

I believe I have gone cover to cover through the IPC in regards to joints under slabs in water distribution and prohibited joints. It is not there. Every jurisdiction I have found joints prohibited, is through amendment.


----------



## Tommy plumber

*ProTech*

I hear you about the lack of uniformity and everybody not being on the same page.
Years ago the code said we needed a 10' head on DWV tests but nobody did it; every plumber I know would only put a 5' head for a test. And the inspectors didn't enforce the 10' head rule. So what happened? The code writers amended the code and now only a 5' head is required. We may see the braze requirement fall by the wayside in time.


----------



## Dapluma

Usually not required after the water meter. You have to check local codes. Brazing isn't going to hurt anything and if it gives you peace of mind, then do it. There is no one who can fault you for going above and beyond what plumbing code requires. I've soft soldered under slabs before and have had no problems. In retrospect (maybe I'm just getting older) I think brazing might have been a more professional job. On the other hand, I think you are more likely to have a pin hole leak in the copper over time than a joint failure. Basically, go where the local plumbing code leads you, then go with your gut if you want to exceed those standards.


----------



## mrfiftyfour

The National Code of Canada allows brazing only.


----------



## Protech

I called my county inspector. He was like "uhhhhh, let me give you the plans examiner's #". Ok, I get the plans examiner and he was like "uhhhhhh, I'm going to have to call you back.".

That was a few days ago. No phone call :whistling2:


----------



## Bayside500

i have seen old buildings where the rigid copper was soft soldered under slab, tees and everything, i guess they didn't know about soft copper or something.

i figure if it lasts that long, then why not do it now, i would hate to try and braze an old copper tube that is very thin walled from old age.


----------



## stillaround

I dont see it in the code..did anyone find it. I've only seen it in specs and commercial. They used to do joints underground here years ago..one particular plumber and it wasnt brazed. Everyone else loops the soft up for a manifold. I just replaced a valve for a copper service and was glad it wasnt brazed...I wouldnt have even expected it to be brazed until I read this thread.


----------



## Protech

2007 Residential book:

*P2904.15 Underground joints.* Joints in polybutylene (PB) plastic pipe or tubing underground or under a concrete floor slab shall be installed using heat fusion, in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions. Joints in copper pipe or tube installed in a concrete floor slab or under a concrete floor slab on grade shall be installed using wrought-copper fittings and brazed joints. *


It's not in the plumbing book, it's in the residential book.
*



stillaround said:


> *I dont see it in the code..did anyone find it*. I've only seen it in specs and commercial. They used to do joints underground here years ago..one particular plumber and it wasnt brazed. Everyone else loops the soft up for a manifold. I just replaced a valve for a copper service and was glad it wasnt brazed...I wouldnt have even expected it to be brazed until I read this thread.


----------



## Tommy plumber

stillaround said:


> I dont see it in the code..did anyone find it. I've only seen it in specs and commercial. They used to do joints underground here years ago..one particular plumber and it wasnt brazed. Everyone else loops the soft up for a manifold. I just replaced a valve for a copper service and was glad it wasnt brazed...I wouldnt have even expected it to be brazed until I read this thread.


 



Read post #16.


----------



## stillaround

So I read that polybutylene only for joints, and didnt know about fusion for pb, only pe....and I dont blame an inspector for not knowing this.


One reason I like the forum...if I had to research all this stuff out I definitely wouldnt feel like myself.


----------



## OleTom

Well in my opinion anytime you have copper in a place you can not get back to easy Brazing is a good way to go. Maybe it will cost you a little more BUT would be a lot cheaper and easier then busting up concrete.

Just saying :thumbup:


----------



## petebee50

Here in montgomery we either reroute org reline potable under slabs


----------



## easttexasplumb

easttexasplumb said:


> Maybe one day they will make copperbond with high levels of silver in it for underslab use. :laughing::laughing:












Ask and ye shall receive.


----------



## U666A

^^^^

That's it... I quit!

I'm going to find something else to pass the time til I die... :laughing:

"But Mr. Inspector, a plumber said I HAD TO silver solder the joints, and if you read the packaging..."

:laughing:

How many did you buy, ETP???

:laughing: :thumbup: :laughing:


----------



## DesertOkie

In AZ and OK we braze under slab. In az anything over 2" was brazed. We used the UPC in AZ and the IPC in OK I'm not sure if it is in either but if that is what they want that's what the get. I'm just happy that here in OK the code is the same for every inspector. In Tucson each inspector wanted different stuff especially on gas. PITA


----------



## Plumber/sc

In south Carolina you can solder unground 
We fix a 3" copper water main that drop a broke at the wall had to use 90' to get it back level


----------



## bizzybeeplumbin

I sweat or pro press 1/2" - 4" unless its under a slab, I will braze it.

UPC says you need to braze, I am sure the IPC says the same.


----------



## plumjoe

seems not to long ago. i saw i video on here, of a guy repairing copper leak, with copper to pex adapters and a piece of pex. under the slab.


----------



## plbgbiz

That might have been a pic from Protech.


----------



## Mississippiplum

IMHO, anything under the slab should be brazed, soldering a fitting or two for a repair isn't too big of a deal but anything more needs to be brazed. And crimp fittings and rings for pex should NEVER be put under a slab. running any type of water distribution piping or any pressure piping for that matter under a slab should be avoided at all costs IMO, but in most cases running the lines under-slab is the only option.


----------



## liquid plumber

Mississippiplum said:


> IMHO, anything under the slab should be brazed, soldering a fitting or two for a repair isn't too big of a deal but anything more needs to be brazed. And crimp fittings and rings for pex should NEVER be put under a slab. running any type of water distribution piping or any pressure piping for that matter under a slab should be avoided at all costs IMO, but in most cases running the lines under-slab is the only option.


 
i totally agree, i dont see the sense in water lines under a slab. even when they are properly installed eventually the are gonna leak. I have yet to find a project, new construction or remodel where i said "wow this would be a great time to put every last stitch of water line under 4 inches of concrete". notwithstading the occasion where looping a hot and cold under the slab is apprpriate to pick up an island or some other similar installation


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

Here's what a crappy master plumber did at my church!!! And it passed. Pex is just lazy


----------



## gitnerdun

I've put Uponor Pex under and in the slab, have for at least 15 years. No problems. 

The in the slab was a custom home with 3 baths and a kitchen, with water and drains encased in solid concrete. I wanted to hang it, but the owner/builder (a well known and damn good one) didn't want to see it.


----------



## Mississippiplum

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Here's what a crappy master plumber did at my church!!! And it passed. Pex is just lazy


The galvy strapping adds a nice touch lol.


----------



## Tommy plumber

Mississippiplum said:


> IMHO, anything under the slab should be brazed, soldering a fitting or two for a repair isn't too big of a deal but anything more needs to be brazed. And crimp fittings and rings for pex should NEVER be put under a slab. running any type of water distribution piping or any pressure piping for that matter under a slab should be avoided at all costs IMO, but in most cases running the lines under-slab is the only option.


 





According to our code, copper lines under a slab shall be brazed. Will soft-soldering work just fine? Yes of course. But technically speaking, it should be brazed.


----------



## SirAdrian

This is the national plumbing code of Canada. Hope you can read that. Sorry for all the highlighting, I just got out of school.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


----------



## user7551

Protech said:


> Yeah, that makes allot of sense..........
> 
> So a flare joint is better that a soldered joint huh?


It makes perfect sense , A soft soldered fitting Will pull apart when enough force is applied . A flared connection is stronger than a soft soldered connection The only connection stronger is of course a brazed joint because if properly done will out last any soldered or flared joint.


----------



## cityplumbing

Found this in the 2007 Florida Building Code: Residential (First Printing)‚ Includes 2009 Supplement. Same as 2004. But no mention of this in the 2010.

*P2904.15 Underground joints.* Joints in polybutylene (PB) plastic pipe or tubing underground or under a concrete floor slab shall be installed using heat fusion, in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions. Joints in copper pipe or tube installed in a concrete floor slab or under a concrete floor slab on grade shall be installed using wrought-copper fittings and brazed joints.


----------



## PrecisePlumbing

Plumber/sc said:


> In south Carolina you can solder unground
> We fix a 3" copper water main that drop a broke at the wall had to use 90' to get it back level


Dude 2 45 degrees?


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL

*Please educate me*



PrecisePlumbing said:


> Dude 2 45 degrees?


Clarification of term ...

Brazing or Silver Soldering.

Brazing requires a flux, you can braze dissimilar metals.

Silver Soldering on copper no flux, but you must go hot enough to make the tubing red. Unless you are using a low temp silver alloy them you can use a good turbo tip.

Now when you talk brazing does that include silver soldering?


----------



## Protech

Anyone have a picture of a properly soldered joint that failed under a slab?


----------



## jeffreyplumber

Copper joints must be brazed under slab within a building. 
I belive cpvc glue joints are actualy allowed underslab. That was some years ago under upc code never seen it done that way


----------



## rocksteady

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Now when you talk brazing does that include silver soldering?


If I'm doing a repair below slab it's silver soldered using Silfos, not technically brazing.






Paul


----------



## user7551

Protech said:


> Anyone have a picture of a properly soldered joint that failed under a slab?



didn't take pictures lol , never thought i would need'em . Rule of thumb here in texas is all copper joints under an occupied slab shall be brazed. If its a parking lot, parking garage, side walk , any where else but inside a building it can be soft soldered.


----------



## Protech

More food for thought: If the argument for brazing vs soldering is that brazing is structurally superior to soft soldering, then why is CPVC allowed to be under slab at all? I think we can all agree the in the presence of heaving/settling soils soft solder copper will stand up far better than CPVC.

It does not make sense.


----------



## user7551

Protech said:


> More food for thought: If the argument for brazing vs soldering is that brazing is structurally superior to soft soldering, then why is CPVC allowed to be under slab at all? I think we can all agree the in the presence of heaving/settling soils soft solder copper will stand up far better than CPVC.
> 
> It does not make sense.


I totally agree with you about the cpvc , the idiot that approved that material to go under a slab needs to have the stupidity b##@##@ slapped out of him. I'll go one step further and say , any plumber that put cpvc under an occupied slab needs to really think about another trade imo.


----------



## Mississippiplum

Cpvc is shiot, Anything is better then cpvc.


----------



## cityplumbing

CPVC is used under a slab is to save money period. The only person who pays is the homeowner when there's a leak..

Now when we discuss brazing over soldering under a slab are we concerned about the soil causing a reaction with the solder and weakening the joint?


----------



## Bayside500

Protech said:


> Anyone have a picture of a properly soldered joint that failed under a slab?


i don't do much service work, but i have never seen one


----------



## Protech

Bayside500 said:


> i don't do much service work, but i have never seen one


I've busted open countless slabs with copper fittings under them. I have NEVER seen brazed joints under a slab.

I've also asked several inspectors if I can solder under a slab and they have all said yes. I then asked them about any special requirements about brazing. They had no idea what I was talking about.

Either enforce it or remove it from the books!


----------



## Mississippiplum

A soldered joint is extremely strong, and have NEVER seen a PROPERLY soldered joint fail.
I don't recall ever seeing a brazed joint in res.


----------



## The real E.P.

Mississippiplum said:


> A soldered joint is extremely strong, and have NEVER seen a PROPERLY soldered joint fail.


That's because it shouldn't


----------



## user7551

Mississippiplum said:


> A soldered joint is extremely strong, and have NEVER seen a PROPERLY soldered joint fail.
> I don't recall ever seeing a brazed joint in res.


You haven't been doing plumbing long enough then.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

It doesn't matter if solder is strong and will hold because sil flos is stronger and I want the strongest joint as possible under my slabs!!! And it's code!!! UPC atleast!! You never soft solder under slabs!!!!!! That's first year apprentice stuff!!!


----------



## Protech

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> It doesn't matter if solder is strong and will hold because sil flos is stronger and I want the strongest joint as possible under my slabs!!! And it's code!!! UPC atleast!! You never soft solder under slabs!!!!!! That's first year apprentice stuff!!!


Well, thousands of plumbers here in Florida disagree.


----------



## Titan Plumbing

I have to agree with Protech on this. What is the difference if it's under an occupied slab or a driveway? I've actually seen more failed solder joints exposed, in walls, and ceilings than I have underground.

Never made sense to me...BTW, due to Code requirements I silfloss joints under a building.


----------



## beachplumber

i have soft soldered repairs in slab


----------



## Airgap

Protech said:


> I've busted open countless slabs with copper fittings under them. I have NEVER seen brazed joints under a slab.
> 
> I've also asked several inspectors if I can solder under a slab and they have all said yes. I then asked them about any special requirements about brazing. They had no idea what I was talking about.
> 
> Either enforce it or remove it from the books!


The inspectors we have here are basically ex carpenters and sparkys....They don't know a brazed joint from a schwinn coupling....


----------



## Tommy plumber

Protech said:


> I've busted open countless slabs with copper fittings under them. I have NEVER seen brazed joints under a slab.
> 
> I've also asked several inspectors if I can solder under a slab and they have all said yes. I then asked them about any special requirements about brazing. They had no idea what I was talking about.
> 
> Either enforce it or remove it from the books!


 




They probably aren't real plumbers. Some inspectors I've met have a master plumber's license but many double as mechanical inspectors. Where I am, a master's license is not a pre-requisite for getting a plumbing inspectors job. And in my opinion, it should be.

Can you imagine if doctors had to pull a permit to perform surgery and then you or I showed up to do the inspection?!!! Doctors would be like WTH??? A plumber inspecting me, a surgeon?


----------



## Mississippiplum

Like I said according to our code anything underslab should be brazed, but does it really need to be? I really don't think so, would brazing be a good idea yeah, but does it really need to be done, according to code yes, but in a real situation no. A properly done soldered joint, is extremely strong, I've never seen one pull apart-NEVER.


----------



## easttexasplumb

Tommy plumber said:


> Can you imagine if doctors had to pull a permit to perform surgery and then you or I showed up to do the inspection?!!! Doctors would be like WTH??? A plumber inspecting me, a surgeon?


 
They would say "Damn how much is that going to cost me".:laughing:


----------



## a1total

From what we teach at my company is Brazing is alway better how ever we do the repairs both ways code does say no soilder joints beneath the slab but some times what the book says and what you are able to perform while laying on your stomach crunched into a little hole repairing a leak is 2 different things! We do recomend to braze before soilder A-1 Total Service Plumbing Los Angeles CA.


----------



## MSilver

a1total said:


> From what we teach at my company is Brazing is alway better how ever we do the repairs both ways code does say no soilder joints beneath the slab but some times what the book says and what you are able to perform while laying on your stomach crunched into a little hole repairing a leak is 2 different things! We do recomend to braze before soilder A-1 Total Service Plumbing Los Angeles CA.


Agree 110% :thumbsup:


----------



## 89plumbum

Mississippi plum said:


> Like I said according to our code anything underslab should be brazed, but does it really need to be? I really don't think so, would brazing be a good idea yeah, but does it really need to be done, according to code yes, but in a real situation no. A properly done soldered joint, is extremely strong, I've never seen one pull apart-NEVER.


Unfortunately I have more than a few times. My bro in Virginia had a leak last week where the toilet branch came right out of the wall just trying to turn the stop off. Only thing holding it was probably the chrome supply.
When brazed it has be to right or it will leak immediately. If done right, its not coming apart.
Where as copper could be poorly soldered(as you mentioned) and hold until a later time, and pop apart. 
I'm not disagreeing wit you Mississippi.


----------



## cityplumbing

I've seen soldered joints come apart when I'm replacing old copper lines on demo and I'm just bending the pipe to throw it in my mongo bucket the pipe pops out of the fittings on occasion.


----------



## cityplumbing

If you have a pipe break under a slab there can be more structural damage to the foundation then under a drive way IMO.


----------



## rocksteady

Why is anybody talking about this if it's in the code you work under? If the material will support it, you HAVE to do it. I realize there are practical limits to certain techniques and if the copper is too degraded you can't do anything about it but otherwise, it's the only legal way to do the repair. Do you just pick and choose parts of the code you think are justified? Disregard the rest? 

This is just as bad as guys hiding behind the code to justify sharkbites, AAV's and the like. You can't cherry pick the codes to find the easiest way out.




Paul


----------



## Tommy plumber

rocksteady said:


> Why is anybody talking about this if it's in the code you work under?
> You can't cherry pick the codes to find the easiest way out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paul


 




The reason I started this thread is because despite it (brazing) being required under slabs, most plumbers and plumbing inspectors aren't even aware of it. In fact, it is not even located in the plumbing code book, it's in the building code.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

Tommy plumber said:


> The reason I started this thread is because despite it (brazing) being required under slabs, most plumbers and plumbing inspectors aren't even aware of it. In fact, it is not even located in the plumbing code book, it's in the building code.


It is in UPC code!!


----------



## Plumber/sc

PrecisePlumbing said:


> Dude 2 45 degrees?


We only had 90 dude


----------



## jeffreyplumber

I am not aware of confusion over soft solder or brazing under the slab of a house in Ca. The plumbers know it and the Inspectors know it. It is often disregarded by plumbers but they hide it and dont show inspectors.
I guess in Florida its suprise to many. Everyone I know knows better.
Personaly I dont think soft solder under a slab is that bad but should avoid it.
I think the worst thing is to have unsleeved copper in contact with soil


----------



## the plumber VA

Braze underground. Shark bites are not allowed here in VA underground. Brazing only.


----------



## brians plumbing

check out the united plumbing code (upc). it says under a slab copper shall be installed without fitting were posible but were they are used shall be brazed


----------



## easttexasplumb

brians plumbing said:


> check out the united plumbing code (upc). it says under a slab copper shall be installed without fitting were posible but were they are used shall be brazed


Post an introduction and "united" plumbing code, Really.


----------



## JL Martinez

Hello everyone, Under the (UPC) Uniforn Plumbing Code 97-2009, and the (CPC) California 2010 Plumbing Code this is what it states:

609.3 Water piping installed within a building and in or under
a concrete floor slab resting on the ground shall be installed
in accordance with the following requirements:

609.3.2 Copper tubing shall be installed without joints
where possible. Where joints are permitted, they shall be
brazed, and fittings shall be wrought copper.

Note: For the purpose of this section, "within the building"
shall mean within the fixed limits of the building
foundation.

My question is, 

Does the IPC and the other states regulating their own plumbing code contain essentially the same code as the UPC and as the CPC, or does it differ?

On a side note, I tend to braze all my joints under slabs; however, if the copper tube is thinned then I soft solder the repair and advise a re-route or re-pipe depending on its layout.


----------



## bizzybeeplumbin

brians plumbing said:


> check out the united plumbing code (upc). it says under a slab copper shall be installed without fitting were posible but were they are used shall be brazed


Dude, its the uniform plumbing code.


----------



## bizzybeeplumbin

easttexasplumb said:


> Post an introduction and "united" plumbing code, Really.


Funny thing is it says Uniform Plumbing Code right on the code book.


----------



## JL Martinez

accidently pressed "n" instead of "M" on uniform:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## Redwood

JL Martinez said:


> accidently pressed "n" instead of "M" on uniform:laughing::laughing::laughing:


Darn I was just getting ready to write something funny... :laughing:


----------



## AlbacoreShuffle

brians plumbing said:


> check out the united plumbing code (upc). it says under a slab copper shall be installed without fitting were posible but were they are used shall be brazed


Poser !


----------



## Mississippiplum

Does any1 know where I could pick up a united plumbing code book? :laughing: I can't seem to find 1 anywhere.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


----------



## Plumb Bob

Mississippiplum said:


> Does any1 know where I could pick up a united plumbing code book? :laughing: I can't seem to find 1 anywhere.
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


Its on the shelf next to "The Hackmasters guide to plumbing"

:-/


----------



## Airgap

Plumb Bob said:


> Its on the shelf next to "The Hackmasters guide to plumbing"
> 
> :-/


Hey Bob. How's your OWB doing?


----------



## Plumb Bob

airgap said:


> hey bob. How's your owb doing?


owb?


----------



## Airgap

Plumb Bob said:


> owb?


 Outdoor wood boiler


----------



## Plumb Bob

Airgap said:


> Outdoor wood boiler


I have a wood pellet fireplace insert that works great and a tankless gas water heater but no outdoor wood boiler. 

Maybe wrong bob

:-(


----------



## Airgap

Plumb Bob said:


> I have a wood pellet fireplace insert that works great and a tankless gas water heater but no outdoor wood boiler.
> 
> Maybe wrong bob
> 
> :-(


My bad...


----------

