# Guadian water powered pumps



## ibeplumber (Sep 20, 2011)

Does anybody else on here install Guardian water powered back up sump pumps on here? Here is the one I installed today. I enjoy looking at your guys pictures so I thought I would share one.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Clean work, I like the galvy support, Here we have to install an rpz in a situation like that, I see you installed a avb Which I don't have a problem with as long that's what your code calls for


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## ibeplumber (Sep 20, 2011)

Its a PVB which is allowed. One of our township inspectors told me a few weeks ago he would approve them with the non testable double double check that used to come with them  We pull a required permit on every one. I have heard that the state is going to start requiring a RPZ.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

ibeplumber said:


> . One of our township inspectors told me a few weeks ago he would approve them with the non testable double check that used to come with them  .


lmao, what was that inspector smoking, inspectors here would NEVER pass anything like that


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I don't see much use in a water powered sump pump...


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Redwood said:


> I don't see much use in a water powered sump pump...


I've always been a little skeptical about them too Red.... but thats probably because I've never seen one or installed one, and I guess I haven't done enough research on them to fully understand how they work...

May I ask what your beef is with them? I usually try not to take one persons opinion on a product when it comes to completely writing it off...

Care to discuss?


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

The only thing there good for is a backup pump, like shown in the pic in the op, but as the primary pump, that is just plain stupid, but for a backup pump there perfect as long as the building ain't on a well, power goes out and theres no water. after all that's the main purpose If the power goes out then the water powered back up will keep the area from flooding.


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## 100 Watt (Aug 11, 2011)

I don't think (i hope) anyone is installing them as their primary pump. We normally install Liberty SJ10. They definately work. Problem is you never know it's being used until the water bill shows up! I recommend buying a $20 water alarm from Depot/Lowes. Also, make sure you connect it directly to 3/4". 

I think it's supposed to pump 2 gallons for every gallon of domestic it uses. 
Alright in my book!


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Yea... 

The basement is flooding so I might as well make a recirculation loop and add 1 gallon of water for every 2 gallons that I pump out... :laughing:
Or better yet point it downhill at your neighbor...

The cost with proper backflow prevention is about the same as a battery system.

The water supply must not be interrupted so anyone on a well can't use it. This would include large private water supply systems as well, anyone ever see an entire condo association or, development fed by a private well system? I have!

Those pumps can run up a nice water bill too...
Especially when they stick on...:yes:

For those of you that worry about batteries going dead in an extended power outage, a jumper off the car will charge it fairly quickly...

An optimal system IMHO is an alarmed dual alternating pump system with a standby generator. That provides other benefits as well such as a working refrigerator, limited cooking, heat, and limited ac...

All the comforts the neighbors are missing...:laughing:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I've turned down every opportunity to install a water powered backup.


Don't agree with the notion that system will keep up with the peak water flow entering the pit.


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## ibeplumber (Sep 20, 2011)

Wow! I am surprised at all the negativity on H20 BACK UP pumps. We have installed hundreds of these Guardian pumps over that last 15 years and have had great success with them. They are only used as a back up only, and when the property has city water supply.
This one was installed with the discharge dug all the way to the storm sewer (no flooding the neighbors). 

We also offer a high water alarm that alerts the homeowner when the water level is higher than the primary pump. I like to install them on a separate discharge also, so if the discharge plug's with iron algae or freezes it doesn't take out both pumps.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ibeplumber said:


> Wow! I am surprised at all the negativity on H20 BACK UP pumps. We have installed hundreds of these Guardian pumps over that last 15 years and have had great success with them. They are only used as a back up only, and when the property has city water supply.
> This one was installed with the discharge dug all the way to the storm sewer (no flooding the neighbors).
> 
> We also offer a high water alarm that alerts the homeowner when the water level is higher than the primary pump. I like to install them on a separate discharge also, so if the discharge plug's with iron algae or freezes it doesn't take out both pumps.


Their Achilles Heel is really their wimpy flow rate.
Figure that they are capable of about 1/2 the flow of a Zoeller M-53 main pump.
That could be a problem in many basements and it gets worse if you have more than 4' of discharge head or, less than 60 psi inlet pressure... 

The table below is for a Liberty SJ-10 but you can expect similar results from the Guardian and Zoeller Home Guard Max...

The table below uses pressure at the inlet to the unit for it's flow specifications...










As you can see the best case scenario is 60 psi at 4' discharge head flowing 19.8 GPM in comparison to the Zoeller M-53 pumping 43 GPM with 5' discharge head...

Drop the inlet pressure to 20 - 30 PSi and then you have 11 - 13 GPM flow at 4' of discharge head...

Going to a more typical head for basement water removal of 8' of discharge head and 60 psi inlet pressure pumps 17 GPM, while 20 - 30 psi inlet will pump 2 1/2 - 3 GPM in comparison to 34 GPM by the Zoeller M-53 at 10' of discharge head... 

That low rate of discharge could get you into some serious trouble if you think the water powered back up pump even comes close to matching the output of the main sump pump system. *Sizing a sump pump isn't an easy task as flows vary seasonally and with storms so it is more a matter of past history than what you see on a service call.* Really the best information that we often have is the existing main pump has kept up with the incoming water for X number of years without problems. Anything more than that will require test wells and an engineering study which probably wont happen...:laughing:

So why would I even remotely be interested in a pump that has somewhere between 7.3% - 46% the capacity of the main pump?

The Generator Back up provides full capacity and additional benefits...
or,
A good battery back up pump like the Zoeller Aquanot II will provide flows in the range of 44 GPM at 5' discharge head which actually exceeds the M-53 capacity, and 31 GPM at 10' discharge head which is a loss of 3 GPM flow from the M-53... :thumbup:

I use the Zoeller M-53 for comparison as it has the largest market share in the area I work in.


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## 130 PLUMBER (Oct 22, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Their Achilles Heel is really their wimpy flow rate.
> Figure that they are capable of about 1/2 the flow of a Zoeller M-53 main pump.
> That could be a problem in many basements and it gets worse if you have more than 4' of discharge head or, less than 60 psi inlet pressure...
> 
> ...


 
beside them not being code here, the* NUMBERS DON'T LIE. IT'S JUST NOT WORTH IT!!!*


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## Mr Plumber (Oct 20, 2011)

Why is everybody downing water backups? Hence the word "backup" not a main pump. i have had great success and many calls thanking me for putting these in saving 10's of thousand of dollars in water damage to finished basements. 

I like the battery backups as well but will only advise them on well systems, because lets be real the average homeowner is not going to check on and/or replace the batteries when they need too. Plus what if the power is out for a few days many batteries will not run very long if the pump is going on and off every minute or so.

At least with a water backup they will realize soothing is wrong with the main pump when they see their high water bill and it may encourage them to check on it and turn it on once every few months to make sure they are good when the power goes out.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Mr Plumber said:


> Why is everybody downing water backups? Hence the word "backup" not a main pump. i have had great success and many calls thanking me for putting these in saving 10's of thousand of dollars in water damage to finished basements.
> 
> I like the battery backups as well but will only advise them on well systems, because lets be real the average homeowner is not going to check on and/or replace the batteries when they need too. Plus what if the power is out for a few days many batteries will not run very long if the pump is going on and off every minute or so.
> 
> At least with a water backup they will realize soothing is wrong with the main pump when they see their high water bill and it may encourage them to check on it and turn it on once every few months to make sure they are good when the power goes out.


I see little difference between an unmaintained battery backup pump and a water powered one that lacks the pumping capacity to keep the sump pit from overflowing...

Either way the basement will be a swimming pool... 

The only difference is a Battery Backup Pump like the Zoeller Aquanot II will keep it dry when new and when properly maintained.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

The only way to be sure the basement will stay dry, Is to not have a basement, or to have a backup genset like redwood said.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Mississippiplum said:


> The only way to be sure the basement will stay dry, Is to not have a basement, or to have a backup genset like redwood said.


Even that takes maintenance...

But I like the fringe benefits it provides as well...
Running a burner or 2 on the stove, having the well pump run, having the boiler run in the winter and when I want hot water, running the AC in part of the house in the summer, the fridge staying cool, having lights...

Having the neighbors listen to my generator run while I'm comfortable and they aren't... :laughing:

The only downside is occasions like Hurricane Irene when I never lost power and I had to disconnect it and drive it around to some family and friends to give them a shot of power while they were out so their food would keep and they could get some water and hot water...

Of course the cable internet went out so that kinda sucked but I managed to connect to someone's unsecured network on DSL...


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

The best type of genset is a permanent unit with a automatic transfer switch, don't even have to go outside to hook nothing up :laughing: generac makes some nice units


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Mississippiplum said:


> The best type of genset is a permanent unit with a automatic transfer switch, don't even have to go outside to hook nothing up :laughing: generac makes some nice units


Yea then you don't have to disconnect and bring it around to friends and family as well... :laughing:


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Redwood said:


> Yea then you don't have to disconnect and bring it around to friends and family as well... :laughing:


:laughing: that's another benefit


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Sorry ,,, i'll stick with the Zoeller battery back up , and i think that EVERYBODY should own a generator ! Sure if you're out of town that could be a problem but , ask the neighbor , or hire a young person to make sure if power goes down they can run the generator etc ,,,,, NO wait ,,, that will turn into a drunken high school party at your house ,, never mind


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## robwilliams (May 6, 2011)

Redwood said:


> Yea...
> 
> The basement is flooding so I might as well make a recirculation loop and add 1 gallon of water for every 2 gallons that I pump out... :laughing:
> Or better yet point it downhill at your neighbor...
> ...


DITTO!

When we get a call from a customer, wanting a battery back-up for their sump pump or a back-up siphon pump installed, we immediately go into sales mode and talk about a stand-by generator. More money up front, but definitely worth it. Aside from the convenience of having power when your neighbors don't, it can add resale value to the house.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I just had the house running on the generator from Saturday night until Monday night after we got blasted with 8" of heavy white crud...
800,000 homes lost power from the storm...
I had a 2" dia. white clothesline...
The trees still had all their leaves so a bunch of them came down...

I had all the comforts except phone and internet...:furious::furious:

My neighbors got to shiver in the dark while they listened to my generator... :thumbup:


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Being prepared is everything, your neighbors should have bought a genset too.


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## rob the plumber (Oct 21, 2011)

Maybe its a regional thing, but water powered back up pumps are a must for a finished basement in Michigan. They work great, and I have yet to see one not keep a basement dry. A water alarm will let the homeowner know that their primary pump failed, avoiding the huge water bill. I only use battery back up pumps on a well.
The pump in the op looks nice, but fyi, rpz's are code in Michigan for sump pumps and have been for a while.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

rob the plumber said:


> Maybe its a regional thing, but water powered back up pumps are a must for a finished basement in Michigan. They work great, and I have yet to see one not keep a basement dry. A water alarm will let the homeowner know that their primary pump failed, avoiding the huge water bill. I only use battery back up pumps on a well.
> The pump in the op looks nice, but fyi, rpz's are code in Michigan for sump pumps and have been for a while.


Maybe your basements just don't get much water...:laughing:
Is the land pretty flat?

That can make things happen when a snow melt or, heavy rain rolls down a hill. :yes:

I've seen basements that were normally dry catch a snow melt and keep 2 pits pumping close to 70 gpm with the pumps running steady for 30-40 minutes before shutting off for a minute and doing it again..

Alternating duplex pumps is a must there as is an alarm and standby generator...

Weird how it happens but I recall one home like that that didn't have a pump or, a problem for 40 years and then something happened...


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## rob the plumber (Oct 21, 2011)

Michigan is quite flat, so I could see us not having a flood of ground water.


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## ibeplumber (Sep 20, 2011)

rob the plumber said:


> Maybe its a regional thing, but water powered back up pumps are a must for a finished basement in Michigan. They work great, and I have yet to see one not keep a basement dry. A water alarm will let the homeowner know that their primary pump failed, avoiding the huge water bill. I only use battery back up pumps on a well.
> The pump in the op looks nice, but fyi, rpz's are code in Michigan for sump pumps and have been for a while.


We use Watts 800 M4s everyone is permitted with test reports. I have even asked the inspector about this. He said it was fine to install them with a non testable double check that used to come with them We plan to switch to RPZs soon but they are only required in one jurisdiction at this point.


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## rob the plumber (Oct 21, 2011)

Awesome. Your work looks great. I wish my boss let me install them that nicely.


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## Mr Jay (Nov 10, 2011)

Water Source back up pumps are satisfactory in most situations. They are however, like battery back-systems ill equipped to handle catastrophic rainfall situations. They do have wimpy flow rates and it's important to let consumers know (preferably in writing to protect yourself) that a back-up sump pump will work in a "normal" rainfall situation only. Homeowners who believe they are safe as a result of a back-up sump pump are usually surprised when faced with hurricane or tropical depression level rainfall amounts and their basement floods anyway. The first call they usually make is to the installing plumber yelling and screaming that they were wrongly sold a bill of goods that did not operate as promised. A bad place to be for sure. Write a disclaimer (or have one written for you) and save yourself allot of grief. They simply cannot keep up with heavy rainfall amounts.


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## rob the plumber (Oct 21, 2011)

Good point Mr. Jay.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Mr Jay said:


> Water Source back up pumps are satisfactory in most situations. They are however, like battery back-systems ill equipped to handle catastrophic rainfall situations. They do have wimpy flow rates and it's important to let consumers know (preferably in writing to protect yourself) that a back-up sump pump will work in a "normal" rainfall situation only. Homeowners who believe they are safe as a result of a back-up sump pump are usually surprised when faced with hurricane or tropical depression level rainfall amounts and their basement floods anyway. The first call they usually make is to the installing plumber yelling and screaming that they were wrongly sold a bill of goods that did not operate as promised. A bad place to be for sure. Write a disclaimer (or have one written for you) and save yourself allot of grief. They simply cannot keep up with heavy rainfall amounts.


That's why I usually go with the Zoeller Aquanot when I do a battery back up install...
The pump curve very closely matches the main pump capacity....


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## plumberpnx (Oct 12, 2011)

I think this is good choice, if you are fitting any pumps. There are many benefits of guardian water powered pumps.


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## Mathyou (Oct 20, 2011)

Mr Jay said:


> W*ater Source back up pumps are satisfactory in most situations. They are however, like battery back-systems ill equipped to handle catastrophic rainfall situations.* They do have wimpy flow rates and it's important to let consumers know (preferably in writing to protect yourself) that a back-up sump pump will work in a "normal" rainfall situation only. Homeowners who believe they are safe as a result of a back-up sump pump are usually surprised when faced with hurricane or tropical depression level rainfall amounts and their basement floods anyway. The first call they usually make is to the installing plumber yelling and screaming that they were wrongly sold a bill of goods that did not operate as promised. A bad place to be for sure. Write a disclaimer (or have one written for you) and save yourself allot of grief. They simply cannot keep up with heavy rainfall amounts.


Agreed. The water driven back-ups are not a complete waste of money and can be a good option for homeowners who will not take the time to routinely check a battery system and refuse to buy a generator.

I have installed two of the guardian pumps, called the inspector and in both situations an RPZ was required. I wonder if the homeowner (who can't simply check a marine battery every few months) is even going to keep up with getting the RPZ checked yearly. If not it that just makes the water driven back up as useless as a battery system that goes unchecked. What happens if one of the checks becomes faulty in the RPZ, it is not like the guardian is running constantly enough for the RPZ to continue to dump often enough for a homeowner to notice there is a problem.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Mathyou said:


> I wonder if the homeowner (who can't simply check a marine battery every few months) is even going to keep up with getting the RPZ checked yearly. If not it that just makes the water driven back up as useless as a battery system that goes unchecked. What happens if one of the checks becomes faulty in the RPZ, it is not like the guardian is running constantly enough for the RPZ to continue to dump often enough for a homeowner to notice there is a problem.


:laughing:
Anything without maintenance is just useless junk...
If they don't want a flooded basement they need to keep an eye on the condition of their pump system...


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## rob the plumber (Oct 21, 2011)

Some people will maintain it, most will not.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

Could not agree more, with all redwood said. As long as I could find a customer, with an unlimited budget that genereator system would be fantastic. However, most of my customers have heart failure, when I tell them the price of just the Guardian water powered back up pump, installed the right way, with seperate dischage pipe, & proper back flow protection. Not very many would go for more. But we don't lose power that much around here either. Lived in my house 24yrs, & maybe lost power 5 or 6 times at most. Longest was 3 days during the big black out of 2003. 
Installed quite a few Guardian back up pumps, & they handle the amount of water coming in basements around here, just fine. Not many well pumps or community wells around here, 99% city water. Just saying.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

We sell alot of water back up pumps...

I find it more reliable than battery back.... 

How long will a battery back up run?

The water one will run as long as there is city water pressure..

Here we put them in for two reasons

1. power outage
2. main pump failure


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## rob the plumber (Oct 21, 2011)

I've never seen a decent water powered back up not be able to keep up in s.e. Lower Michigan.


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