# latest boiler and hvac



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

finnished this one on friday... infloor, air handler with AC and hydronic coil and indirect hotwater tank.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

rusty hook said:


> Nice job oldschool. What kind of pumps are thoes? What kind of stand outs? never seen thoes before do you have a link?
> 
> No drop pipe on the backflow atmospheric vent. No support on the #30


Those wilo pumps..... 

there is some strap all on the expansion tank pipe.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

rusty hook said:


> Nice job oldschool. What kind of pumps are thoes? What kind of stand outs? never seen thoes before do you have a link?
> 
> No drop pipe on the backflow atmospheric vent. No support on the #30


The stand outs are called valley hangers


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

Are those zone vales soldered in?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Catlin987987 said:


> Are those zone vales soldered in?


yes they are


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Very nice job. If I may be so bold what kind of man hours we looking at here.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

mpsllc said:


> Very nice job. If I may be so bold what kind of man hours we looking at here.


Dam you are bold :laughing:

Man hours ... here we go

Infloor heating pipe lay out about 6 hrs 1,800 sqft ... 2 plumbers... 2 helpers

Ductwork 2 full days 2 guys

Boiler hanging and piping, venting and gas line 2 full days 

AC ... condensor was on other side of house because mechanical room side of house was to close to lot line to put in condensor... had to pipe line sets through attic to opposite end of house.... full AC one day

Controls and tie in 1 full day

Hrv system 1 day 

In total a little over 40 hours 2 men for boiler heating Ac and hrv , ductwork.

We also did the plumbing in this home.... so in total you are looking at about 2 full weeks of work for two guys


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Total price tag on this job $ 36,000.00


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Total price tag on this job $ 36,000.00


Now there's a man not afraid to charge what it's worth!


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> Now there's a man not afraid to charge what it's worth!


:yes: I am not the cheapest..... and never will be....

I prefer to charge enough.... there is always a little something I can always throw in for free for the customer....like an extra hose bib or something like that...


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Looks great, very professional looking. For $ 36,000.00 I would've cooked the customers (3) hot meals a day while I was there and taken out the trash as well...:laughing: Aren't you the one who pays his journeyman plumbers $ 75 an hour? Now I know how you do it.:laughing:


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Now that I'm on a computer and can look at the bigger picture. Don't mix valve manufacturers suggest pumping downstream of the mix water outlet side to draw through the valve? 

(Pumping out to floor, giving mix valve inlets equal pressure)

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-080.pdf


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> Now that I'm on a computer and can look at the bigger picture. Don't mix valve manufacturers suggest pumping downstream of the mix water outlet side to draw through the valve?
> 
> (Pumping out to floor, giving mix valve inlets equal pressure)
> 
> http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-080.pdf


No choice about valves.... thats all that was in stock at the time.... this is Northern Ontario.... Infloor valves are both four wire...


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

I think he meant the pump being on the upstream or downstream side of the valves...but I could be wrong...


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Airgap said:


> I think he meant the pump being on the upstream or downstream side of the valves...but I could be wrong...


I find it doesn't really matter....

If the system was designed with all injection that would be fine...

Just primary loop with infloor.... then the customer wanted a hydronic loop for the air handler afterwards.... originally the air handler was to do just AC and HRV.... so I ordered Air handler with heating coil for back up if something would ever happen to infloor piping.


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## Ishmael (Dec 9, 2009)

ZL700 said:


> Now that I'm on a computer and can look at the bigger picture. Don't mix valve manufacturers suggest pumping downstream of the mix water outlet side to draw through the valve?
> 
> (Pumping out to floor, giving mix valve inlets equal pressure)
> 
> http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-080.pdf


 
I've never done it the way Oldschool did it here, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work with the circulator on the return. I always put the circulator on the outlet side of the mix valve and pump toward the radiant supply manifold. I once had to fix someone's system because the original installer put the circulator on the hot feed pushing toward the mix valve. All it was doing was circulating water straight across the mix valve - completely bypassing the radiant.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Athough circulators are not pumps, they do create pressure, that's why the manufacturers show the pump on the mix outlet pumping away. Pressure differential between hot and cold inlets can cause issues. Even though it is on the return drawing through the mix valve, just further away it can still cause a pressure increase at the discharge or known as point of system pressure increase. 

May work but is it the best as is? Manufacturers show circ placed somewhere else for a good reason. 
(see earlier link)
IMO


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> Athough circulators are not pumps, they do create pressure, that's why the manufacturers show the pump on the mix outlet pumping away. Pressure differential between hot and cold inlets can cause issues. Even though it is on the return drawing through the mix valve, just further away it can still cause a pressure increase at the discharge or known as point of system pressure increase.
> 
> May work but is it the best as is? Manufacturers show circ placed somewhere else for a good reason.
> (see earlier link)
> IMO


The whole idea of the pump being on the supply side began with injection systems..... prior to that the circ pump was on the return.....

This configuration will work just fine,,,,,

The most problem with pump on return was to get the air out of the system.... But if a system is designed well enough with places to remove air there should be no problem....

I find this industry is getting dumbed down as far as hydronics..... most guys can not get the system to work properly if the didn't buy the whole thing in a box. 

Also injection system in total... it makes me wonder.... I have seen other companies do systems with 13 pumps for a home of 2000 sqft..

Why so many pumps???? Dam in reality I would only need one. The only reason I would need my second one is because of the mixing valve for the infloor.

It had to be a pump manufacturer that originally came out with injection systems


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## jim connolly (Oct 29, 2010)

man, nothing beats a nice tidy job! Customers look at that system, they don't know how it all works but what they see is professionalism and attention to detail.

I prefer to use unistrut & clamps for my pipe hangers though....just one guys opinion.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Not sure we can blame the circ companies for numerous circs on jobs all the time. Case in point, 4 temp radiant (hardwood, tile, carpet, basement slab) that would be 4 pumps minimum, add a fifth for hi- effic equipment. 

But you have point, for instance multi zone baseboard with caveats. Remember years ago, there were less choices, and let's not forget no multi-speeds. Remember the series 100? As ancient as it is, it was/is still a great flat curve pump tolerable of 1 or 9 zone valves calling and open.

Back to multiple pumps, if one 250 watt circulator could carry the load of a house, imagine running 6 to do the same work? Besides material costs, the energy wish to be saved in gas on the new boiler was lost in the energy to operate all those circulators in a row.

With exception to White Rodgers who is way behind on zone valve design, the newer ones available today work quite nicely with the delta p and delta t variable speed circulators saving energy, material and labor costs.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

What is it about a taco003 that makes it NOT a centrifugal pump?

Definitions of *centrifugal pump* on the Web:


a pump that use centrifugal force to discharge fluid into a pipe
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
A centrifugal pump is a rotodynamic pump that uses a rotating impeller to increase the pressure of a fluid. Centrifugal pumps are commonly used to move liquids through a piping system. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugal_pump
A pump in which motion is imparted to a fluid by the centrifugal force imparted by a rotating impeller.
www.braewater.com/index.php
A pump with a rotating impeller which imparts an angular acceleration to the liquid, causing it to flow outwards from the centre to the periphery.
www.quarrying.org/dictionary/c.html
It uses a rotating impeller to increase the velocity of a fluid. It works by the conversion of the rotational kinetic energy, typically from an electric motor or turbine, to an increased static fluid pressure.
www.mechanicalebook.com/definitions/defC2.htm
Uses centrifugal force to move water or other liquids. Centrifugal pumps use an impeller and a volute to create the partial vacuum and discharge pressure necessary to move water through the casing. The impeller and volute form the heart




ZL700 said:


> *Athough circulators are not pumps*, they do create pressure, that's why the manufacturers show the pump on the mix outlet pumping away. Pressure differential between hot and cold inlets can cause issues. Even though it is on the return drawing through the mix valve, just further away it can still cause a pressure increase at the discharge or known as point of system pressure increase.
> 
> May work but is it the best as is? Manufacturers show circ placed somewhere else for a good reason.
> (see earlier link)
> IMO


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Also, why are they called circulator pumps in catalogs? :whistling2:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

now that you mention it..... a water jet pump works on the same principle.... 

So does a sump pump


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Right, those are all centrifugal pumps.



OldSchool said:


> now that you mention it..... a water jet pump works on the same principle....
> 
> So does a sump pump


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## Lifer (Nov 23, 2010)

:laughing:I took out a piston pump the other day , it was resting it's princaples...:laughing:


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

OMG

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/101-061.pdf

Then explain why nowhere on the Taco 003 cartridge circulator you referenced submittal sheet it ever mentions the word pump?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

OK Mr. hotshot engineer, what parts on a circulator pump make it NOT a pump? :whistling2:

I sure do see an impeller and a volute. Does it take water in axially due to the pressure differential across impeller due to the centrphial force generated by the impeller as the water is throw into the volute?

Break it down for me.
















Fact is, a circulator pump is just a low lead centrifugal pump.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

I'm not arguing with any of it, heard it said a hundred times by the manufacturers, they wish to be referred to as circulators when involved in small domestic and heating systems.

It's them not me

Pumps according to them create pressure, lift water .........

Why are you so uppity? They put you in a ditch again today?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Dunno, your avatar gets me going I guess.

And I don't know who "they" are supposed to be as I'm the owner.



ZL700 said:


> I'm not arguing with any of it, heard it said a hundred times by the manufacturers, they wish to be referred to as circulators when involved in small domestic and heating systems.
> 
> It's them not me
> 
> ...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Looks like a centrifugal pump to me too...:whistling2:


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

I like you!

So can a submersible pump, sump pump, well pump be used for heating circulation?
Can a heating circulator "pump" be used to pump water from a well or crock?

Yes they are all pumps by class, operation and components, but all different purposes. Until a heating pump can lift water even 1', I will call them circulators.

Sorry about the razz, I have been in the trenches myself, figuratively, since I've hung duct when an employee calls in sick. 

We do what we have to do


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

Nice work old school i did spot some sharkbites on the high temp feed to the air handler though.. Imo they have no place in a $36,000 system.. And if i remember correctly you were trying to knock me for using one on my baxi luna thread :laughing: what gives?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Plumbworker said:


> Nice work old school i did spot some sharkbites on the high temp feed to the air handler though.. Imo they have no place in a $36,000 system.. And if i remember correctly you were trying to knock me for using one on my baxi luna thread :laughing: what gives?


I am now reformed :laughing: If I didn't use the sharkbite it would have been $ 37,000 

Acutally.... sharkbite rating are higher than most heating applications...

This was a very tight room only about 4 ft wide over 10 to 12 ft long and lots happening in that tiny space.... so what the hell a little sharkbite here and there with some PEX......


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

lol okay $1,000 for two sweat x pex 90s


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Plumbworker said:


> lol okay $1,000 for two sweat x pex 90s


I know ... I know... I got to raise my prices....


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