# where do you get parts for this piece of junk>>.??



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

This is a 20 year old Kohler, has anyone ever tangled with one of these...

their are 3 of them in one shower unit and they all need new parts.....


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> This is a 20 year old Kohler, has anyone ever tangled with one of these...
> 
> their are 3 of them in one shower unit and they all need new parts.....


What makes you think they're junk? I ain't sayin they ain't, but you ain't even opened 'em yet.

Just email the pics to kohler and they will look them up and tell you.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> What makes you think they're junk? I ain't sayin they ain't, but you ain't even opened 'em yet.
> 
> Just email the pics to kohler and they will look them up and tell you.



good idea, I guess they ought to know more than anyone...

their are 3 shower faucest in one shower that needs repairs
never seen this junk before---
I am not touching anything until
the parts are 100%secured .... One faucet is on the outside wall 

thank you


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Master Mark said:


> good idea, I guess they ought to know more than anyone...
> 
> their are 3 shower faucest in one shower that needs repairs
> never seen this junk before---
> ...


knowing kohler..sorry we dont make those parts anymore, would you like to buy a new one....


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

There's zero money in valve repair unless you're clear up front. I get a lot of Grohe referrals, I tell the customer $500 for the first hour. Then parts and return money.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> knowing kohler..sorry we dont make those parts anymore, would you like to buy a new one....



That is going to be my best guess... 
This house is from the early 90s and they were probably top of 
the line faucets in their day... 
But Kohler has a parts book as big as the old yellow pages and odds are they are discontinued..
Kohler sucks with their wide array of dis-similar faucets.. funky new cartridges for every other model
they spit out every few years.... You would think that they would standardize their stuff 👿 

Delta and Moen have them beat hands down.. 
I can repair a 1970 delta faucet without having 
to go through all this greif


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

I'm not sure, but I think that valve came in 1/2" and 3/4". You'll need to know that for the on/off cartridge.

There was also a change in design at some point in that valve's history. If yours are from the 90's they should be the old ones, I think.

The 3/4" on/off cartridge is k-78948. Here

The thermostatic control is a k-78913. Here

Please verify I am correct before ordering stupid expensive parts.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Toli said:


> I'm not sure, but I think that valve came in 1/2" and 3/4". You'll need to know that for the on/off cartridge.
> 
> There was also a change in design at some point in that valve's history. If yours are from the 90's they should be the old ones, I think.
> 
> ...



thanks very much for the information.. ,,,,

I guess you are saying that the on and off cartridge is the upper handle
and the lower dial is the thermostatic control and I suppose they both need
to be replaced

so basicaly I am gonna have to find out if its a 1/2 or 3/4 valve body before I order the parts
for 3 faucets.....lol now that is wonderuful to know..... you probably saved me a whole day in
time frustration with this junk

thanks for the parts numbers, I am pretty sure that my local Kohler supplier is stumped at this point.
Kohler is basically dog crap around this area.....Delta and Moen rule.....

I am sticking to water heaters... 
and I might even throw this mess to another company to fool with...


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

1/2 inch is 1021121
and 1021119


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I talked to the customer this morning and he had gotten a 
quote from someone else..... that temperature monitor dial on the bottom
cost 450 on their site and the top one 200...

He says he has an estimate from someone else to do 2 of the faucets 
which he thought was high until he saw these costs on line
and that is really ok with me..... 

I really dont want anything to do with it....
too busy to get my dick hung up
in some mess that might kill the whole day or days dealing with it...

just getting the handles off that beast makes me think of twisting the
cartridge out of the wall on a old delta 1500........ 😨 😨 😨 
..


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

dhal22 said:


> There's zero money in valve repair unless you're clear up front. I get a lot of Grohe referrals, I tell the customer $500 for the first hour. Then parts and return money.


Can you explain that one? If you get a lot of referrals that means you repair them regularly for a minimum of 500$? What I don't understand is, what is the return money?


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I got a Arabic dude yesterday telling me to come out on Saturday to fix his mess, he redid the tile around the 1980's 2 handle faucet and it didn't fit anymore and said all what was needed were longer screws. Even his tile guy spent hours trying to make it work. Try as I may he argued over and over it was easy and I didn't have to cut up the wall to replace it. Told him to send in pics and when I got 1 picture I texted the faucet was no longer code and I wasn't touching it and blocked his number. I hate them when they are know it all and argue forever, do it your damn self or get another tile guy it's so easy!


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> thanks very much for the information.. ,,,,
> 
> I guess you are saying that the on and off cartridge is the upper handle
> and the lower dial is the thermostatic control and I suppose they both need
> ...


Tell them they don't make parts for them anymore and they will have to have new delta or moen faucets,period


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

they got the other company to deal with this abortion... something like $900 
to deal with it..... I was more than ok with it.. they claim to know about this brand.....

I talked to the customer this morning and told them to just make sure
the "tech" that they are sending out has actually worked on them
before..... I said that their is no reason you should be the "crash test dummy".
that he gets to cut his teeth on.......


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Looks like a Kohler Master Shower stacked valve. Old but not a piece of junk. Not to bad to work on either. I’ve never had the discontinued parts issue someone mentioned with Kohler. If they are the original owner call up Kohler. They will identify what you need and send free replacement parts. Save the custumer hundreds, make your money and you look like a hero. There’s definitely money to be made in faucet repairs.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Marlin said:


> Looks like a Kohler Master Shower stacked valve. Old but not a piece of junk. Not to bad to work on either. I’ve never had the discontinued parts issue someone mentioned with Kohler. If they are the original owner call up Kohler. They will identify what you need and send free replacement parts. Save the custumer hundreds, make your money and you look like a hero. There’s definitely money to be made in faucet repairs.



I believe you, the problem is I dont have the time or patience to deal with 
this situation at this time.... we are too damn busy 
although I might try to get hold of this customer 
and tell him to call Kohle himself and see if actually can get free parts..
that is a good idea if they are in the christmas mood to give them away...


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> ...........................and tell him to call Kohle himself and see if actually can get free parts..
> ................


It's not about their mood, pretty much all the manufacturers will send parts to the homeowner for free or at very little cost. *Kohler has a form the owner fills out on their site* and can even upload pictures.

I took out a kohler forte faucet from my bosses daughters house, went on the kohler website and filled out the form, got the parts I needed sent to me for free, and now it's been on my kitchen sink for over a year. Better than the POS DELTA my wife had picked out.
*
Doesn't matter what brand it is, I always tell customers to call or email the manufacturer, the few who aren't too lazy to do it are always very happy and call us back to put the new parts in.*


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

I sometimes offer to customers to call the manufacturer to get free replacement parts, but it depends on the situation, and there are other things to consider. Sometimes they just do not want to wait, and/or they don't want to pay my fee for today and then to come out again, which often cancels out any savings. We do not warantee any parts that we do not provide, and if for some reason the repair on a 20 year old valve does not hold, they are not going to want to hear that we aren't going to back it up, regardless of what they signed, which they never read anyway. We may be in the right, but our good will takes a hit in their mind. I would rather have them beatch that they paid a higher price, with us backing it up if there were any issues, than complaining that they have to pay to have it fixed again. If it is obvious that they can afford it, I usually don't even bother mentioning free replacement parts from the manufacturer. 

I have had customers get the wrong parts, either their fault or the sales rep, but still more frustration for them and another visit. Even though not my fault, increased frustration for them can sometimes result in their passing it on to me. I like to be proactive in trying to mitigate as many possible causes of headaches as possible.

Then there is the business to consider. I don't think it is in any way dishonest to fail to advise them that they might be able to get free parts, since there are also benefits to them to not do so. I know where my paycheck comes from, and if the company does better, I do better. I think it is perfectly justifyable to provide the parts, with our associated markup. If I were a one man shop, it would mean more food on my table, without screwing anyone.

I have been that guy who had to use the customer as a crash test dummy by fumbling my way through something I was inexperienced with. If the boss says go, I go, he says do, I do, to the best of my ability, and I don't have much choice in the matter. He knows my strengths and weaknesses, so I hope he wouldn't send me out to do something I couldn't figure out or handle with his phone support. I do feel bad for the customer, but I see it as simply the cost of doing the business of life, so to speak. In other situations the customer will get someone who is well experienced with whatever issue, and crank it out right away. I will be prepared for the next time I need to do it for the next guy. It all gets passed around. It takes a village to train a plumber. For those reasons I would never get them all wound up about the possibility of an inexperienced guy coming around next time, especially if I didn't want to or were too scared to do the job myself. We've all had those customers who distrusted us from the start, and it sucks. Why would you set someone else up to be put in that situation? There is not enough comradery in the trades IMO.


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

sparky said:


> Tell them they don't make parts for them anymore and they will have to have new delta or moen faucets,period


I sometimes do this, and feel it is perfectly justifyable for several good reasons, benefitting both you and the customer. I probably wouldn't do it on a 5 year old valve, but 20 or more, well in most cases they got their money's worth IMO.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

goeswiththeflow said:


> *regardless of what they signed, which they never read anyway. We may be in the right, but our good will takes a hit in their mind.*


Ain't that the absolute truth! People don't read my work order to know the terms and conditions. EVEN WORSE some people don't listen, this morning I told the guy the rate and fees for the use of the drain machine PLUS TAXES. He signed the work order box which states I have read and accept to pay the rate written above, when I handed him the bill he exclaimed wasn't it less than 100$? How come there's taxes? Dumba$$ I told you on the phone the price plus taxes and obviously you signed without reading. I need my therapist back soon!


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

sparky said:


> Tell them they don't make parts for them anymore and they will have to have new delta or moen faucets,period


Lying to a custumer is a bad idea with the internet these days. If they find parts themselves you either look incompetent or a liar. I’ll tell them when something isn’t worth fixing but I won’t lie to them about it





goeswiththeflow said:


> I sometimes offer to customers to call the manufacturer to get free replacement parts, but it depends on the situation, and there are other things to consider. Sometimes they just do not want to wait, and/or they don't want to pay my fee for today and then to come out again, which often cancels out any savings. We do not warantee any parts that we do not provide, and if for some reason the repair on a 20 year old valve does not hold, they are not going to want to hear that we aren't going to back it up, regardless of what they signed, which they never read anyway. We may be in the right, but our good will takes a hit in their mind. I would rather have them beatch that they paid a higher price, with us backing it up if there were any issues, than complaining that they have to pay to have it fixed again. If it is obvious that they can afford it, I usually don't even bother mentioning free replacement parts from the manufacturer.
> 
> I have had customers get the wrong parts, either their fault or the sales rep, but still more frustration for them and another visit. Even though not my fault, increased frustration for them can sometimes result in their passing it on to me. I like to be proactive in trying to mitigate as many possible causes of headaches as possible.
> 
> ...


Yes. I wouldn’t call and get a $20 warranty Moentrol cartridge. In Marks example it sounds like they need 700 or so in thermostatic cartridges which are going to have to be ordered regardless. Their is a time and place for getting things warrantied and a time and place for getting it off your truck.

As far as warrantying faucet repairs I worked for a shop that had the custumer sign a form saying no warranty in faucet repairs. I don’t like that and I’ll eat them on a case by case basis. If a faucet is going to be beyond repair I’ll generally know before I touch it. In that case I’ll warn them, and yes they’re on the hook if it doesn’t work. If it starts leaking again three months later I’ll warranty it. If something unforeseen happens during the repair I’ll work with them on the time spend. I’d rather eat an hour and a couple bucks in parts then loose a custumer because they perceive it as not standing behind my work. I get maybe one of these a year at most.

Again with the internet. Unless parts are cheap I’ll tell them. They can have it today but it’s going to cost xxx more than waiting for warranty parts.I don’t want to throw a $350 Perrin and Rowe thermostatic cartridge in to have them call screaming a month later that the part should have been warrantied. Let the custumer make their own decisions.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Tango said:


> Ain't that the absolute truth! People don't read my work order to know the terms and conditions. EVEN WORSE some people don't listen, this morning I told the guy the rate and fees for the use of the drain machine PLUS TAXES. He signed the work order box which states I have read and accept to pay the rate written above, when I handed him the bill he exclaimed wasn't it less than 100$? How come there's taxes? Dumba$$ I told you on the phone the price plus taxes and obviously you signed without reading. I need my therapist back soon!


Ran into some woman who thought she shouldn’t have to pay tax once. I threatened her with the tax department. Told her I have to submit a 1225-M form if someone refuses to pay. She paid.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Marlin said:


> Ran into some woman who thought she shouldn’t have to pay tax once. I threatened her with the tax department. Told her I have to submit a 1225-M form if someone refuses to pay. She paid.


Most accents argue the taxes. I say it all the time they argue the T/M is not a rate but a fixed price and once the bill is handed to them they go nuts or they haggle even if they signed a contract... One of them woman called me a few days later saying I had to give her the money back because supposedly some institution told her the hourly rate was a wage. I said it's a service and services like going to the restaurant are taxable but okay tell them to call me with the article in the law. She never called back evidently she was lying about this bogus entity.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Marlin said:


> Lying to a custumer is a bad idea with the internet these days. If they find parts themselves you either look incompetent or a liar. I’ll tell them when something isn’t worth fixing but I won’t lie to them about it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What I do now I ask them the brand name. I tell them I have a few parts but to buy a faucet in case. For kitchen faucets I tell them I take 1 hour to repair your faucet and if it doesn't work you have to pay me that wasted time plus the time to replace it or for the same hour I'll put in their new faucet. Most buy a new faucet for installation or buy one just it in case. I also say if I don't have the parts you pay me 2 service calls plus maybe a 3rd one because the repair doesn't work out to put a new one in.

For tubs I explain I have to cut out tile. For tub/showers same thing cut up the wall. A lot of people stop using their tubs, a lot live with a drip.

The funniest part is that the majority of people buy a new tub/shower faucet ask me to change it. I explain you have to cut the wall and they argue that's not how it's done so I ask them how are you going to cut the pipes out? I get very few replacement for these, I guess they call another plumber who can magically do it.

In any case I have a lengthy phone conversation and I have a lot less issues because the smart one understand it might cost them more than they think and go straight for a replacement.


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## bawalter (Dec 23, 2020)

Good morning and Merry Christmas. As I drink coffee and wait for the kids to wake up, I was browsing some threads. This thread left me with all kinds of questions about repair vs replace and you guys, the service plumber. As a mfg. of repair parts, I'm interested in starting a thread about understanding the obstacles you have to repair valves. Back in the day replacing the seat and washer was the norm. Now with ceramics and thermostatic cartridges (all more expensive), there seems to be less repair and more of replacing the valve. What tools would help the repair plumber? Just thinking out loud.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

bawalter said:


> Good morning and Merry Christmas. As I drink coffee and wait for the kids to wake up, I was browsing some threads. This thread left me with all kinds of questions about repair vs replace and you guys, the service plumber. As a mfg. of repair parts, I'm interested in starting a thread about understanding the obstacles you have to repair valves. Back in the day replacing the seat and washer was the norm. Now with ceramics and thermostatic cartridges (all more expensive), there seems to be less repair and more of replacing the valve. What tools would help the repair plumber? Just thinking out loud.


Post! You should get a ton of answers! My philosophy is KISS, but most of the name brands seem to disagree.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> thanks very much for the information.. ,,,,
> 
> I guess you are saying that the on and off cartridge is the upper handle
> and the lower dial is the thermostatic control and I suppose they both need
> ...







I dont blame you for throwing in the towel. You will wind up probably not making any money after fooling around with that silly valve, tracking down parts, internet searches, phone calls, etc.

But I would make the repair and charge a nice price.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> I dont blame you for throwing in the towel. You will wind up probably not making any money after fooling around with that silly valve, tracking down parts, internet searches, phone calls, etc.
> 
> But I would make the repair and charge a nice price.


Thanks tommy....

I really dont have the time to fool around trying to prove my plumbing knowledge 
any longer....and I dont need to learn how to fix the only one of these in 25 miles around here
of course if I were sitting around all week long waiting for the phone to ring
it might be different.... I got plenty of high dollar jobs to do next year once I am well again


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

OpenSights said:


> Post! You should get a ton of answers! My philosophy is KISS, but most of the name brands seem to disagree.



I got a whole kit of Speakman repair tools that cost me 100 bucks just sitting on my shelf now
that i was told I would need to repair some pos speakman shower faucet in a basement shower unit...
got a new thermostatic spool too..... they would not take them back after they told me it would work 👿 

All Brand new , only out of the package one time..... and they did not work.... 
so out went the speakman and after cutting the back 
wall in went a Delta 1700


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> I got a whole kit of Speakman repair tools that cost me 100 bucks just sitting on my shelf now
> that i was told I would need to repair some pos speakman shower faucet in a basement shower unit...
> got a new thermostatic spool too..... they would not take them back after they told me it would work 👿
> 
> ...


Delta is ok for a kitchen or lav faucet, better than kohler and others, but not shower valves, IMHO. Never heard of Speakman... walkman, yes. Had one back in the day.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> I got a whole kit of Speakman repair tools that cost me 100 bucks just sitting on my shelf now...............



You got pics? Or at least a model number?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

skoronesa said:


> You got pics? Or at least a model number?


SORRY...
I am a little out of it today,,, I meant to say Symmons..
symmons pressure balanced single handle shower valve from about 1990.
its almost as bad as that Kohler.... nothing matched up and nothing in that $100
tool kit was gonna take out them huge seats either.......


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Marlin said:


> Looks like a Kohler Master Shower stacked valve. Old but not a piece of junk. Not to bad to work on either. I’ve never had the discontinued parts issue someone mentioned with Kohler. If they are the original owner call up Kohler. They will identify what you need and send free replacement parts. Save the custumer hundreds, make your money and you look like a hero. There’s definitely money to be made in faucet repairs.


Then it leaks a week after you leave and they are calling you back *****in and moaning,replace that crap


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> SORRY...
> I am a little out of it today,,, I meant to say Symmons..
> symmons pressure balanced single handle shower valve from about 1990.
> its almost as bad as that Kohler.... nothing matched up and nothing in that $100
> tool kit was gonna take out them huge seats either.......



Gotcha. I didn't think speakmans had special tools. The symmons tool shouldn't be 100$ either though. For the large seat you'd need a very large spiral or square extractor.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

sparky said:


> Then it leaks a week after you leave and they are calling you back *****in and moaning,replace that crap


What crap? If they still make it twenty years later and people are paying a grand for the rough and trim they’re doing something right.
•Thermostatic valves hold temperature better than pressure balanced.
•That valve if 3/4” will flow about 17gpm. The 1/2” is around 10. Try running a high end shower off a Delta 1700. Maybe if you put the Delta thermostatic cartridge in it you’ll get 7ish. Then you’re at the same price point and availability as the Kohler.
•With a thermostatic valve and volume control setup you can adjust temp and pressure separately. Yes some of the Deltas do it. It feels like a toy turning those loose plastic handles.
•With the thermostatic theres no setting the temperature. If you like your shower at 102 degrees set it once and never fumble with the dial again. No messing with it as the temp on the water heater changes.

I guess it’s a different world around here. Most showers I work on are higher end thermostats with volume controls. After a bunch of years it’s gotten easy to Identify and repair most of them.


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