# cast iron failure



## pipe doc (Dec 26, 2010)

I have several buildings from the mid 1970's presenting a lateral split in cast pipe 2 & 3" . 8 to 10' sections with 1/4" split all or most of the way . is this happening in your aria ? what is the cause?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Where are the pipes installed? Under a slab under ground? Hanging inside a crawl space under a wood frame floor? Hanging inside a drop ceiling of a reinforced concrete high-rise building? Inside a wood frame wall? Inside a poured concrete wall?

What kind of cast iron? No hub, lead and oakum, neoprene gromet 'n hub? Service weight? Regular? Extra heavy?

Is the system connected to a city sewer or a private septic system?

Residential or commercial?

Details man, details!



pipe doc said:


> I have several buildings from the mid 1970's presenting a lateral split in cast pipe 2 & 3" . 8 to 10' sections with 1/4" split all or most of the way . is this happening in your aria ? what is the cause?


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Protech said:


> Where are the pipes installed? Under a slab under ground? Hanging inside a crawl space under a wood frame floor? Hanging inside a drop ceiling of a reinforced concrete high-rise building? Inside a wood frame wall? Inside a poured concrete wall?
> 
> What kind of cast iron? No hub, lead and oakum, neoprene gromet 'n hub? Service weight? Regular? Extra heavy?
> 
> ...


Reading that and looking at you avitar made me laugh :laughing: I could imagine you all jacked up on coffee wailing away at the keyboard


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

pipe doc said:


> I have several buildings from the mid 1970's presenting a lateral split in cast pipe 2 & 3" . 8 to 10' sections with 1/4" split all or most of the way . is this happening in your aria ? what is the cause?


 

I have seen exactly what you're describing, 1/4" splits in C.I. pipe running 4' in length. I don't know the cause, but my guess is the pipe is splitting at the seams (if it has a seam, I think it does). Probably due to age, humidity, integrity of pipe. I have removed plenty of cast iron from single-family homes and high-rises. If codes permit, I replace the C.I. with pvc. Some times a town or city requires C.I. be replaced with C.I., for example if a high-rise bldg. has no fire sprinklers.


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## sfplumber (Dec 30, 2010)

*Cast Iron Pipe failure.*



pipe doc said:


> I have several buildings from the mid 1970's presenting a lateral split in cast pipe 2 & 3" . 8 to 10' sections with 1/4" split all or most of the way . is this happening in your aria ? what is the cause?


Here is my theory on this type of failure. I have encountered this type of failure in plumbing systems including, but not limited to, a poorly maintained grease trap/interceper. As the food waste breaks down hydrogen sulfide gas is created. This mixes with moisture (in water vapor) making the water vapor/condensate acidic. I believe a mild hydrochloric acid is produced. (Check with you favorite chemist please.) This warm moist acidic water vapor will travel up the vents, condensing on the upper portion of the vent in small droplets). Over time the rust on the upper portion of the vent will flake off and fall to the bottom of the pipe, this thin area will crack over time. I have also replaced copper DWV vents in kitchen system that are perforated with holes, there is a green build up at the perforations that when touched with my hands caused a mild irritation confirming its acidic nature. 

:thumbup:
I hope this has helped.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

sfplumber said:


> Here is my theory on this type of failure. I have encountered this type of failure in plumbing systems including, but not limited to, a poorly maintained grease trap/interceper. As the food waste breaks down hydrogen sulfide gas is created. This mixes with moisture (in water vapor) making the water vapor/condensate acidic. I believe a mild hydrochloric acid is produced. (Check with you favorite chemist please.) This warm moist acidic water vapor will travel up the vents, condensing on the upper portion of the vent in small droplets). Over time the rust on the upper portion of the vent will flake off and fall to the bottom of the pipe, this thin area will crack over time. I have also replaced copper DWV vents in kitchen system that are perforated with holes, there is a green build up at the perforations that when touched with my hands caused a mild irritation confirming its acidic nature.
> 
> :thumbup:
> 
> ...


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

here some cast I ripped out a few months ago


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## Hillside (Jan 22, 2010)

it's happening here a lot, put together with no hubs, capped it and filled up the lines to find another cracked one in the ceiling :thumbsup:

srry for the sideways pics


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## J.J (Mar 24, 2010)

cast just rots. period. see it lots here


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

I've got the same thing with 3 apartments all built in the early 70's. Just think in Chicago I think they still require it.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Protech said:


> Where are the pipes installed? Under a slab under ground? Hanging inside a crawl space under a wood frame floor? Hanging inside a drop ceiling of a reinforced concrete high-rise building? Inside a wood frame wall? Inside a poured concrete wall?
> 
> What kind of cast iron? No hub, lead and oakum, neoprene gromet 'n hub? Service weight? Regular? Extra heavy?
> 
> ...



:laughing: More importantly, is it located in CHICAGO?:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

I thought their was already another PIPE DOC.


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## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

Cast just gets old and gives up the ghost. What's wierd is occasionally I see cast in a 60's crawl space that is still as solid and clean as the day it went in. Not even the slightest hint of a leak or corrosion, while literally right next door, it looks like the photos you guys posted. 

I have replacedliterally tons of bad cast iron.....


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Random thought............Why even use cast iron? Why not wrought iron? Wouldn't wrought iron be more corrosion resistant?


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Protech said:


> Where are the pipes installed? Under a slab under ground? Hanging inside a crawl space under a wood frame floor? Hanging inside a drop ceiling of a reinforced concrete high-rise building? Inside a wood frame wall? Inside a poured concrete wall?
> 
> What kind of cast iron? No hub, lead and oakum, neoprene gromet 'n hub? Service weight? Regular? Extra heavy?
> 
> ...


Could you repeat the question? :laughing:


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

I have also replace mile and miles of cast iron also. In the ground underslab, in building in the walls, etc.

My opinion of Cast Iron is when it is casted and the what it is made of determines if it rots out or cracks.

I would not own a house in my area with cast iron....


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Cast iron will have a thick side and a thin side, more material will go to bottom of the mold. Next time you cut some out, because it is bad, see if the pipe seems to be thicker on the top. If it was laid with the thick side down it would last longer. I Could be wrong, just something I was told by a plumber, I was also told about a pipe stretcher though.:confused1:


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## pipe doc (Dec 26, 2010)

Thanks for all the input. The pipes are no hub ,vertical , in wood frame 8 plex. Most are ski condo's and get periods of hi use. Then vacant . 
My oldest is 3rd year chem.E major at the U of U we are working on the acid theory.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Where it is located really has no relevance here in Sarasota. We have extra heavy, service weight, no –hub, leaded joints, multi tight gaskets that have created the cracks located in walls , ceilings, underground, in crawl spaces. The cracked cast is not selective to what where and how.

When I was located in Ohio I did not see nearly as much cracked cast as I see in Florida. The major difference is in the venting. Here most all fixtures are wet vented with a flat horizontal waste and vent while in Ohio the only wet vent I could do was a lavatory connected to a shower on a 2 inch vertical. Everything else had to have a direct vent within 3 feet. This was back in the 70’s ad 80’s. Not being a chemist I would venture to guess it is the difference in the venting. I cannot remember if the cracked cast in Ohio I had were sewers or septic tanks.

I see more cracked vents on our islands and that would indicate the salt air having an effect on the cast. This is at best a best guess and not factual. I would also guess the salt air affecting homes on the mainland.

Now add to that the acid base drain cleaners that happen with condo and high rise maintenance personnel and no one maintaining their plumbing systems it is a natural progression to deteriorating cast iron piping.


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## hulihan (Aug 11, 2009)

We have been replacing alot about the same age, it is by the beach, best we figure, it is drying out, but almost all is split along the top , only leaks when it rains hard and the drains can not keep up, that is how we are finding them as the lines are in some pretty tough places to replace and it is all 4 inch


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

easttexasplumb said:


> Cast iron will have a thick side and a thin side, more material will go to bottom of the mold. Next time you cut some out, because it is bad, see if the pipe seems to be thicker on the top. If it was laid with the thick side down it would last longer. I Could be wrong, just something I was told by a plumber, I was also told about a pipe stretcher though.:confused1:


You don't think it has anything to do with the water flowing on the bottom of the pipe and not the top? 

Now....go get me the pipe stretchers, and hurry!


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

http://books.google.com/books?id=sC...&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Look under the chart on page 28 2nd paragraph, will need to use compatability view. 
And for the right price I will look for your pipe stretcher all day long. :yes:


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

I see what you're saying, however in that very, very old article it says that even then most pipe was cast on end. The plumber that you're referring to must have been real old to see that type of pipe.

Some of the homes here in Fort Worth that I've worked on were built in the late 1800's and plenty from the early 1900's, I haven't noticed a thick or thin side due to casting. However with that article, I stand corrected.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Titan Plumbing said:


> I see what you're saying, however in that very, very old article it says that even then most pipe was cast on end. The plumber that you're referring to *must have been real old to see that type of pipe.*
> 
> Some of the homes here in Fort Worth that I've worked on were built in the late 1800's and plenty from the early 1900's, I haven't noticed a thick or thin side due to casting. However with that article, I stand corrected.


 
Yes I think for his masters test he had to correctly place the out house and well house.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

easttexasplumb said:


> Yes I think for his masters test he had to correctly place the out house and well house.


That was important back then for sure.


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## plumb4fun (Feb 18, 2009)

I have run into it often at the school district I service. Horizontal runs of 4" C.I. pipe hung in mostly heated attic spaces serving roof drains. The cracks are mostly on top or 1 or 11:00 O'clock; running down half the length of the pipe or more. 20 to 30 years old. Some blame it on condensation that rust the top of the pipe out, and the rust expands and cracks the C.I. Whenever I can I replace with PVC/DWV pipe and no more problems. Aside from what some or our Chicago friends think, cast is not king everywhere.:no:


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## pipe doc (Dec 26, 2010)

i guess the failures are more common then i thought. i found 2 more today. It's great to bounce it off everyone.


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## shakeyglenn68 (Dec 29, 2010)

I have it often here as well, and as stated earlier I have CI pipes here that where put in in the 60's on another complex I work on that appear to be as new as when installed. Inside 2x4 walls, lead oakum. The CI pipe at the complex built in the 70's split, rust horribly, and fill w/ rust so much that the ID is cut down to 1" or less. Not sure but this is my theory: Some CI manufacturer saved themselves some money and changed how they produced CI, a little less iron in the mix when producing the raw material. Just a theory.


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## CaptainBob (Jan 3, 2011)

I have seen much cast iron over the years split like pictured & described here, and sometimes in the same building or even in the same line sections that were the same age as good as new. A couple of examples I have seen---
When I was an apprentice about 25 years ago my boss and I replaced a section of 4" that was running down at a 45 degree angle in the basement of an old commercial building in Minneapolis that had split wide open like someone had pried it open. It was a split that was about 4-5 feet long and as wide as the pipe on the top side and you could watch the water running down from the upper floors. I remember being told it had been this way for years, but the water had never spilled out of the opening so they didn't really consider it a problem, so nothing had never been done about it.
Another job some years ago in an old house I replaced a piece of a 4" stack in a wall coming down from an upstairs bath that had a hairline crack in it the length of the pipe, kind of like a 'seam' if there is such a thing like someone else described.


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