# Abs



## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

I'm not a residential guy at all, so pardon my ignorance... My Aunt-in-law called about some plumbing issues and while looking at her heavily corroded 25 year old water heater I noticed her house is piped in ABS. I knocked on it and it felt extremely brittle, is that a trait of ABS pipe?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Flyout95 said:


> I'm not a residential guy at all, so pardon my ignorance... My Aunt-in-law called about some plumbing issues and while looking at her heavily corroded 25 year old water heater I noticed her house is piped in ABS. I knocked on it and it felt extremely brittle, is that a trait of ABS pipe?


You knocked it, its yours forever..


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> You knocked it, its yours forever..


That doesn't answer my question...


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Flyout95 said:


> I'm not a residential guy at all, so pardon my ignorance... My Aunt-in-law called about some plumbing issues and while looking at her heavily corroded 25 year old water heater I noticed her house is piped in ABS. I knocked on it and it felt extremely brittle, is that a trait of ABS pipe?


Is trash. I hate it. Will not even support its own weight. No matter how many hangers you use it will sag between them making it look like a roller coaster.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Used all the time here.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

Ron said:


> Used all the time here.


Same here, if supported properly it holds alignment fine.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

love2surf927 said:


> Same here, if supported properly it holds alignment fine.


Yes you are right, support every 4' works for me.


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## alberteh (Feb 26, 2012)

ABS support every 4' never have a problem (same thing with PVC as per NPC)

That's all that is used in the great white north


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Mmm. Every 4'? May work in yalls neck of the woods but come here to VA and take a peek under these mobile homes.


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## MNplumb1 (Feb 17, 2014)

PVC used here but in MN it is 32" for PVC or abs.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

MNplumb1 said:


> PVC used here but in MN it is 32" for PVC or abs.


32" ?? That's every other joints.. can see that.. here in Illinois, its 5 ft... try finding every 5 ft span on 16" joint span.


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## arie stratus (Apr 14, 2014)

Flyout95 said:


> I'm not a residential guy at all, so pardon my ignorance... My Aunt-in-law called about some plumbing issues and while looking at her heavily corroded 25 year old water heater I noticed her house is piped in ABS. I knocked on it and it felt extremely brittle, is that a trait of ABS pipe?


ABS is legal in Cali. All the houses are built that way?


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

arie stratus said:


> ABS is legal in Cali. All the houses are built that way?


Not in IL.


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## Dpeckplb (Sep 20, 2013)

Every 4 ft, here in Ontario. I've seen ABS last longer than copper.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

arie stratus said:


> ABS is legal in Cali. All the houses are built that way?


been outlawed here sense mid 70s


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

ABS burns like a rag soaked in kerosene when it catches fire.... and it has turned small basement fires into giant infernos....

PVC only smoulders, so they outlawed ABS a long time ago
for that reason.... 

It will still will probably last another 200 years


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

We refer to it as All Black ***t another reason not to do work on mobile homes. i dont stock abs and never will


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

With the exception of one company which sold an illegal filler material to several manufactures, ABS has the same track record of any other plastic pipe. PVC was not even available in Southern California for the first 20-years I was doing plumbing. Today I would likely chose PVC over ABS, only because it is easier to see problems when running a camera.

Mark


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## piedpiper (Mar 28, 2011)

garbage in my opinion.done more repairs on abs than i can count.cracking,fittings coming apart....will only stock a few fittings for repair purposes.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Flyout95 said:


> I'm not a residential guy at all, so pardon my ignorance... My Aunt-in-law called about some plumbing issues and while looking at her heavily corroded 25 year old water heater I noticed her house is piped in ABS. I knocked on it and it felt extremely brittle, is that a trait of ABS pipe?


The only thing ABS is good for is a transition vent trough the roof.

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## smartbrad (Apr 22, 2013)

Wow there's a lot of angst in this lobby over ABS. In Canada all DWV is run in it, except commercial and institutional bldgs. To answer your question about it getting brittle- it's not common to see it crack. If this is happening it could be a bad brand or batch.


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## arie stratus (Apr 14, 2014)

smartbrad said:


> Wow there's a lot of angst in this lobby over ABS. In Canada all DWV is run in it, except commercial and institutional bldgs. To answer your question about it getting brittle- it's not common to see it crack. If this is happening it could be a bad brand or batch.


That's because in Canada its to cold to install pvc


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

arie stratus said:


> That's because in Canada its to cold to install pvc


It is because with all the snow and ice in our igloos we can't see the white pvc, and then there is the constant repairs because all the polar bears have the same problem


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## CaptainBob (Jan 3, 2011)

smartbrad said:


> Wow there's a lot of angst in this lobby over ABS. In Canada all DWV is run in it, except commercial and institutional bldgs. To answer your question about it getting brittle- it's not common to see it crack. If this is happening it could be a bad brand or batch.


Ditto-- I dont mind using ABS, in some cases I would almost prefer using it. The first few years of my plumbing career all I did was plumb in ABS with my old boss. ABS is pretty durable stuff- it doesn't crack or shatter like PVC- take a hammer to a piece of each and you will see the difference. The one step glue process is nicer, too- you don't have to use cleaner or hold it for a few seconds after you put it together like PVC. In many years of new construction using both ABS and PVC overall I had fewer problems with ABS than PVC.
My old boss never trusted PVC and still doesn't to this day. Back in the 60's when galvanized steel pipe and Durham fittings was phasing out to copper and plastic for DWV he was working for his uncle on a big apartment project and they bid it out with this new stuff on the market called PVC. They had many problems with it, glue not holding and fittings coming apart, even years after the job was long done. The contractor had to install access panels and trap doors to get at the plumbing so it could be repaired when something started leaking. My boss switched to ABS and never looked back since.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

About 40 years back a supply house decided to stock and push ABS. They have long since gone out of business and taken their crap with them. You just can't find the crap here anywhere except the occasional hardware store.


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

I am so sick of what ever a plumber started using as an apprentice being the best thing ever and every thing else is junk.

I have seen plenty of ABS on trailors not supported properly with big bellies in it. OH MAN I have seen the same thing with PVC. 

All I run is PVC because that's what we use. Is it better than ABS. who knows. I see plenty of PVC with a GLUED joint (sorry fellas that ain't a weld) separate when it is viberated or disturbed. 

Jeesh are we plumbers negative to anything different. Plumbers use of toilet paper proves it!


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

saysflushable said:


> I am so sick of what ever a plumber started using as an apprentice being the best thing ever and every thing else is junk. I have seen plenty of ABS on trailors not supported properly with big bellies in it. OH MAN I have seen the same thing with PVC. All I run is PVC because that's what we use. Is it better than ABS. who knows. I see plenty of PVC with a GLUED joint (sorry fellas that ain't a weld) separate when it is viberated or disturbed. Jeesh are we plumbers negative to anything different. Plumbers use of toilet paper proves it!


Sorry pal, but it's a weld

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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I prefer pvc over abs because it's more common around here. Obviously if it's not installed proper there will be issues. With either one. But a pvc glue joint is a solvent weld if done properly.


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

ok keep telling yourself it's welded. I glue PVC. You guys are way better then me so your joints are welded. 

I choose not to lie to myself and when I find I have been lied to I choose not to believe the lie. 

welded :laughing:


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

saysflushable said:


> ok keep telling yourself it's welded. I glue PVC. You guys are way better then me so your joints are welded. I choose not to lie to myself and when I find I have been lied to I choose not to believe the lire. welded :laughing:


You glue model cars together, when you prime PVC and use PVC GLUE the finished joint is a SOLVENT WELD. But for the simple minded you have glued it so your right, you win the prize.

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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

plumbdrum said:


> You glue model cars together, when you prime PVC and use PVC GLUE the finished joint is a SOLVENT WELD. But for the simple minded you have glued it so your right, you win the prize.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


I already said you guys are better than me, your joints are welded. I'm not near as good as you guys so my joints are glued.

I've read all the nonsence on solvent welding PVC. and I have seen in the field what I have seen. 

If what we do to connect PVC together is welding and the fitting and the pipes molucules combine and become 1, then a lot of plumbers myself included need to go to welding school and learn what we are doing wrong. Don't get me wrong I only use PVC but I don't know what I'm doing.

Glad I won the prize I like prizes


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Hmmm, I thought this was a thread on strengthening my inner core. Glad it's about pipe. I hate exercising.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ABS? I don't use it, kinda hard to find around here...
The handi-hacks seem to find plenty of it when they are using PVC though...:whistling2::laughing:

Whenever I see ABS it usually looks like this...


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

saysflushable said:


> I already said you guys are better than me, your joints are welded. I'm not near as good as you guys so my joints are glued. I've read all the nonsence on solvent welding PVC. and I have seen in the field what I have seen. If what we do to connect PVC together is welding and the fitting and the pipes molucules combine and become 1, then a lot of plumbers myself included need to go to welding school and learn what we are doing wrong. Don't get me wrong I only use PVC but I don't know what I'm doing. Glad I won the prize I like prizes


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

saysflushable said:


> I already said you guys are better than me, your joints are welded. I'm not near as good as you guys so my joints are glued. I've read all the nonsence on solvent welding PVC. and I have seen in the field what I have seen. If what we do to connect PVC together is welding and the fitting and the pipes molucules combine and become 1,
> 
> then a lot of plumbers myself included need to go to welding school and learn what we are doing wrong. Don't get me wrong I only use PVC but I don't know what I'm doing. Glad I won the prize I like prizes


You are good as us, you welding and you don't even know it.

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## PeckPlumbing (Mar 19, 2011)

Its quite common to get "pre bent" ABS here.. lol, the suppliers keep it stored outside.. in the sunlight of course... sometimes its hard to get straight pieces. Anyways, yes it cracks.. I usually run into it in homes from the early 70's... but have also seen it cracked in homes in the mid 90s. Some shops here are converting to PVC, but ABS is still by far the most popular here.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

alberteh said:


> ABS support every 4' never have a problem (same thing with PVC as per NPC)
> 
> That's all that is used in the great white north


I hang every 4', but go every 3' on kitchen lines. Lots of very hot water goes down some people's kitchen lines (canning) and they can sometimes sag a bit.

ABS is definitely *not* brittle. PVC is the brittle one. If your ABS is brittle then it's probably a bad manufacturer making cheap junk.

ABS is pretty much all I've ever used for residential and underground commercial. Never had any problems with it.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

Abs is basicly all you see in homes in Ca been that way for 30 plus years. Never seen anyone use pvc here. It appears abs and pvc both have at least a somewhat good serevice life. brittleness expansion and contraction sagging and warpage in sunlight are definately issues. I admit its hard to look at a new piece of plastic pipe and know if it will or wont have a long service life. Its a chance you take as with any plastic such as pex pvc or cpvc. I got no problem using abs in my envirement that I know of .


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## SSP (Dec 14, 2013)

*Tomato or Tomatoe?*

There are different types of ABS :yes:

Solid-Core with Yellow writing is the strongest most durable ABS made. 

Foam-Core or Cellular Core usually has white lettering depending on manufacturer and is a whack cheaper because of lower grade materials. 

ABS or any other PVC really, If left stored in the sun too long, it becomes brittle, it fades, its bows and its degraded over time in those conditions. There are many different makers of ABS, some far worse than others. Now keep in mind you ABS haters who ONLY use PVC (Due to availability and codes in your local area) these pipes are ALL made by the exact same people... which means they all fall under the same minimum testing principles, requirements and ratings. 

As plumbers we already know you get what you pay for... and this is just one more example of such.. ABS is the cheaper product, so naturally its the widest used in areas which allow it under their local code. Keep in mind, the only code deterrent factor ABS presents is its black-burning characteristics that are terrible for the environment during a fire. 

I don't use foam-core or cellular core ABS because i have seen it crack and bow beyond reason. 

If your joints leak though, on ANY abs application, its your GLUE 100%. 

Some people need to identify less with the pipe they use  ... 
Simpy living in an area that denies ABS usage doesn't automatically make the alternative method "better", but just means your local jurisdiction has a fire-code stipulation... At the end of the day i think most problematic installs are user errors anyways... like apprentices being unable to read and identify the piping and selecting the wrong glue... or using damaged, used, or really old piping off the truck they shouldn't have.. 

It doesn't matter who makes residential grade piping that is most widely used and accepted, its always built to minimum standards and at a price that will sell. :whistling2: whether is the paper thin white DWV piping used down south (I shatter this from stepping on it) or the black burning beauty ABS


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## KCplumber (Dec 31, 2009)

I liked using ABS but all our local suppliers quit selling it because it was more expensive and all the new construction guys quit buying it. I used it for 30 years with no problem. Now I can't stand the smell of PVC glue


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## Zegna (May 5, 2014)

Technically speaking, you are neither gluing or welding. You are "fusing" through a chemical reaction. Plastic welding is tough to do well and leaves a small bead much the same way stick welding would, not as smooth and rounded as a nice filet weld from a TIG weld. 

Cellular core pipe has more "air pockets" for lack of the proper term, than non CC making production faster and at a lower cost.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

No, the technical term is solvent weld, maybe the finished product may be considered fused, but the term is weld

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## Zegna (May 5, 2014)

plumbdrum said:


> No, the technical term is solvent weld, maybe the finished product may be considered fused, but the term is weld


I thought the post would lighten the weld/glue debate, but the smile and "technically speaking" doesn't carry it over I guess.

You are 100% right the trade term is solvent welding even while the process is actually fusing.


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

The term solvent weld is correct.
However, like many here, I've done stick, MIG, and TIG welding (won't bother with flux-core) in school and in the field.
Even under duress, I can't call a PVC joint any kind of weld.:laughing:
If it looks like a glued joint...
And smells like a glued joint....
It is a glued joint!:whistling2:

So if I am holding the glue dauber vertically up, is that an overhead weld?
I'm ready for my 6-G exam!:thumbup:


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I call it a glued joint myself, but the correct term is solvent weld. A lot easier to say glued. Lol

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