# HW Recirc line, how do you like to run it?



## pigskin plumber (Oct 2, 2011)

Hey fellas,

I'm gonna be working on a 5 bathroom house and I'm installing a recirculating line off a tank, personally I've never installed one, I've see a feed tied back through the drain valve and my buddy tells me he does his through the cold feed. 

What do you recommend? Also, the lines are gonna be done in PEX, is it worth adding insulation over PEX tubing?

Thanks wise ones!


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Are you an apprentice?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Be carefu now, this guy want to be a plumbing inspector.... where are you planning to put the oversized pump on the system?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

pigskin plumber said:


> Hey fellas,
> 
> I'm gonna be working on a 5 bathroom house and I'm installing a recirculating line off a tank, personally I've never installed one, I've see a feed tied back through the drain valve and my buddy tells me he does his through the cold feed.
> 
> ...


Ur buddy a plumber here??? Where is it tied from??


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

Scott, do like RJ does.... Just run a line from say 2 or 3 baths or all...Tie them into one line , judt make sure its all grading down. I tie mine into bottom of tank..... No pump.... Gravity...

Well maybe RJ doesn't do it this way... But he likes gravity as well....maintenance free


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

redbeardplumber said:


> Scott, do like RJ does.... Just run a line from say 2 or 3 baths or all...Tie them into one line , judt make sure its all grading down. I tie mine into bottom of tank..... No pump.... Gravity...
> 
> Well maybe RJ doesn't do it this way... But he likes gravity as well....maintenance free


That won't work right.. depending on the pipe location...


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

RJ doesn't like pump recircs if possible. I read some of his posts on heating help. I think I know why now but I won't indulge


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Act now and for 29 doolars a month from Charter cable!


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## pigskin plumber (Oct 2, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Ur buddy a plumber here??? Where is it tied from??


 Says he ties it back on the cold feed at the tank with a check.


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## pigskin plumber (Oct 2, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Ur buddy a plumber here??? Where is it tied from??


He is a plumber, not on here though.


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## pigskin plumber (Oct 2, 2011)

redbeardplumber said:


> Scott, do like RJ does.... Just run a line from say 2 or 3 baths or all...Tie them into one line , judt make sure its all grading down. I tie mine into bottom of tank..... No pump.... Gravity... Well maybe RJ doesn't do it this way... But he likes gravity as well....maintenance free


Thanks Red. I want to run with a loop to all bathrooms with a circ pump going into the bottom of the tank. Homeowner is sold on having a circ pump.


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## pigskin plumber (Oct 2, 2011)

MTDUNN said:


> Are you an apprentice?


Licensed


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## pigskin plumber (Oct 2, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Be carefu now, this guy want to be a plumbing inspector.... where are you planning to put the oversized pump on the system?


I do??


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Around here if the run from the water heater to the furthest fixture exceeds 100', then a re-circ line is a must.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

pigskin plumber said:


> I do??


From reading your earlier posts.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

pigskin plumber said:


> He is a plumber, not on here though.


If he's a plumber,he would know the correct way..


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## pigskin plumber (Oct 2, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> If he's a plumber,he would know the correct way..


Okay.. so are you're not on this thread to help out. 

I don't get it. I've been in this trade only 5 years, just got licensed, and went on my own. I do good work, I'm honest, and busy as heck.. it really is great. I'm humbled by how much there really is to know in plumbing and feel extremely fortunate to be part of it. I'm always willing to give a fellow tradesmen help with any issue that I can contribute to, and respectfully listen to anybody especially a senior who has ample experience. 

I just don't get it why members on here play almighty with other members.. not a way to strengthen our forum or trade. That's my rant. 


Anyone else willing to help out, much appreciated, thanks.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Ok you have taken a good little beating so here you go. Simply run your hot and cold out like normal at the farthest bath on the last fixture tee into the line. Take that line back to the w/h. On top of the heater put your pump with a balancing valve and check valve. Tie into the cold feed and make sure you put a check valve on it to.keep all your run outs less than 20 feet that should keep hot water close enough. The pump does not need to be very big. The water only needs to move at 1/2 gal per foot per min. You are just trying to refresh the supply. That is why we always use balance valves and always put them on the discharge side of the pump.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

wyrickmech said:


> Ok you have taken a good little beating so here you go. Simply run your hot and cold out like normal at the farthest bath on the last fixture tee into the line. Take that line back to the w/h. On top of the heater put your pump with a balancing valve and check valve. Tie into the cold feed and make sure you put a check valve on it to.keep all your run outs less than 20 feet that should keep hot water close enough. The pump does not need to be very big. The water only needs to move at 1/2 gal per foot per min. You are just trying to refresh the supply. That is why we always use balance valves and always put them on the discharge side of the pump.


 What???????? Facepalmed...


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

wyrickmech said:


> Ok you have taken a good little beating so here you go. Simply run your hot and cold out like normal at the farthest bath on the last fixture tee into the line. Take that line back to the w/h. On top of the heater put your pump with a balancing valve and check valve. Tie into the cold feed and make sure you put a check valve on it to.keep all your run outs less than 20 feet that should keep hot water close enough. The pump does not need to be very big. The water only needs to move at 1/2 gal per foot per min. You are just trying to refresh the supply. That is why we always use balance valves and always put them on the discharge side of the pump.


By balancing valve do you mean a globe valve? Done plenty of recircs not sure what you mean here.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

love2surf927 said:


> By balancing valve do you mean a globe valve? Done plenty of recircs not sure what you mean here.


 balance valves are just that they balance the flow a pump must be regulated so bell and gosett would be my choice. Watts makes them to. But no they are not a globe valve.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

What the fook you need a pump for??? If installed properly, you don't need a pump!!


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> What the fook you need a pump for??? If installed properly, you don't need a pump!!


 not all systems will work without pumping here gravity systems are not popular because of the typical layout. A lot of slab homes or long runs.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

wyrickmech said:


> not all systems will work without pumping here gravity systems are not popular because of the typical layout. A lot of slab homes or long runs.


True, but what get me u install return to cold water side with pump.. where you get that from???


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> True, but what get me u install return to cold water side with pump.. where you get that from???


 let me clarify the cold water side of the w/h was what I meant. You can also use the drain but I prefer to tee it into the cold water inlet.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

wyrickmech said:


> Ok you have taken a good little beating so here you go. Simply run your hot and cold out like normal at the farthest bath on the last fixture tee into the line. Take that line back to the w/h. On top of the heater put your pump with a balancing valve and check valve. Tie into the cold feed and make sure you put a check valve on it to.keep all your run outs less than 20 feet that should keep hot water close enough. The pump does not need to be very big. The water only needs to move at 1/2 gal per foot per min. You are just trying to refresh the supply. That is why we always use balance valves and always put them on the discharge side of the pump.



I had a general I used to do work for in super high end homes in Rancho Santa Fe and we would take the circ lines all the way down the wall to the fixture, literally instant hot water.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

wyrickmech said:


> balance valves are just that they balance the flow a pump must be regulated so bell and gosett would be my choice. Watts makes them to. But no they are not a globe valve.


Still not sure I understand what do you mean balance the flow?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

wyrickmech said:


> let me clarify the cold water side of the w/h was what I meant. You can also use the drain but I prefer to tee it into the cold water inlet.


That's the wrong way of doing it.. I repiped the incorrectly cold water side and throw away the pump by just tying into the drain connection as supposed to be per manufactor's instruction


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

love2surf927 said:


> Still not sure I understand what do you mean balance the flow?


 You need the bal valves to keep the short loop from short circut.. old hydronic heating trick


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> That's the wrong way of doing it.. I repiped the incorrectly cold water side and throw away the pump by just tying into the drain connection as supposed to be per manufactor's instruction


What's the difference? Honest question not being snarky.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> You need the bal valves to keep the short loop from short circut.. old hydronic heating trick


Ok so we're talking multiple lines here got it. Around here there is no hydronics and the return is 99% of the time only one line.


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## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

rjbphd said:


> That's the wrong way of doing it.. I repiped the incorrectly cold water side and throw away the pump by just tying into the drain connection as supposed to be per manufactor's instruction


I guess I'm doing it wrong as well, but have had no problems with my recirc systems.

How should it be piped?


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

love2surf927 said:


> What's the difference? Honest question not being snarky.


the globe valve is not capable of being controlled so you know how much water is passing threw it. The balance valve meters flow and has ports so you can accurately read how much water is going threw it. They do make a pre set flow meter valve which has a orfice that only allows a set amount of water threw but you can still use it as a shutoff. There is many options.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> You need the bal valves to keep the short loop from short circut.. old hydronic heating trick


you also use one on the pump to control the flow


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

wyrickmech said:


> the globe valve is not capable of being controlled so you know how much water is passing threw it. The balance valve meters flow and has ports so you can accurately read how much water is going threw it. They do make a pre set flow meter valve which has a orfice that only allows a set amount of water threw but you can still use it as a shutoff. There is many options.


I understand after reading a little about balancing valves, thank you. My question was for rj about tying into cold feed or bottom of tank. I always do them to the drain that's how I was taught and that's how they're done around here for the most part just curious what the difference is I can't seem to think of anything substantial.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Here is a couple drawings from a couple hospitals I have done


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

wyrickmech said:


> Here is a couple drawings from a couple hospitals I have done


Cool thanks. I wish it was a little clearer kind of hard to read.


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## TXPlumbBob (Dec 13, 2013)

Note the expansion tank. When you install the ck valve you close the hot system and open yourself up for higher pressures on the hot side. 

We always tie the recirc into what will return the water back to the bottom of the tank. Either by tying into the cold feed or into the drain port. Depends on the WH,Circ pump location, room size, ect.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

love2surf927 said:


> Cool thanks. I wish it was a little clearer kind of hard to read.


 here you go this is a little better


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## pigskin plumber (Oct 2, 2011)

Well.. Glad to see this thread helped me out, thanks fellas. Gonna run a single loop throughout house(short branches to fixtures), back to the cold inlet of tank with circ and check. 
Cheers


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

pigskin plumber said:


> Well.. Glad to see this thread helped me out, thanks fellas. Gonna run a single loop throughout house(short branches to fixtures), back to the cold inlet of tank with circ and check.
> Cheers


Won't try to learn the correct way??? Tell me where in any manufactor stating to connect on coldwater supply?? If its pumped.. who cares??


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## Legacy (Jan 13, 2014)

I run my recirc pumps down to the drain valve location. I pull out the drain, use 3/4' brass nipples and fittings and use a Grundfos UP-10 pump w/check valve. I dont run it back to the cold inlet as it, in my head, adds unnecessary flow through the dip tube, potentially wearing it out faster. P.S the drain valve goes back in to one side of a tee threaded into the drain hole.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Legacy said:


> I run my recirc pumps down to the drain valve location. I pull out the drain, use 3/4' brass nipples and fittings and use a Grundfos UP-10 pump w/check valve. I dont run it back to the cold inlet as it, in my head, adds unnecessary flow through the dip tube, potentially wearing it out faster. P.S the drain valve goes back in to one side of a tee threaded into the drain hole.


 That's correct way and I don't use any stinky pump if the system is piped correctly


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## Legacy (Jan 13, 2014)

rjbphd said:


> That's correct way and I don't use any stinky pump if the system is piped correctly


The homes I work on have little chance of being piped without a pump. They are all stuffed up with flush beams and weird architecture to have a gravity system be viable. There would just be pipes with stagnant water sitting in them.


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## pigskin plumber (Oct 2, 2011)

Legacy said:


> I run my recirc pumps down to the drain valve location. I pull out the drain, use 3/4' brass nipples and fittings and use a Grundfos UP-10 pump w/check valve. I dont run it back to the cold inlet as it, in my head, adds unnecessary flow through the dip tube, potentially wearing it out faster. P.S the drain valve goes back in to one side of a tee threaded into the drain hole.


 thanks L. I like the idea going through the drain. 
Don't want to run it without a pump, the house wasn't designed with plumbing in mind. I have too many obstacles.


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

I go thru drain as well.... Put a ball valve at outlet... Then a tee with drain and tie in...so many don't have this ball valve. Shut ball valve on fire up and then open sediment faucet and that will force all air through...


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Say you have a boiler and indirect DHW tank. Now you need a tempering valve. Place it in a mechanical room in the middle of the house which require multiple returns. Balancing valves (Griswold) or circuit setters (B & G) will be needed. Globe valves are not the best idea because they can fall out of adjustment for a number of reasons. And, the danger of thermal stacking will require proper piping layout at the return connection. For those who aren't sure of how the piping should be configured, the installation diagram of the tempering valve of your choice is a good start.
Helpful reading;
http://www.plumbingengineer.com/may_10/code.php

It's a little complicated. But, complicated is good in that it separates the wheat from the chaff.

All this and no mention of the dangers of possible pin hole leaks induced by unprofessional installations.


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

Plumbus said:


> Say you have a boiler and indirect DHW tank. Now you need a tempering valve. Place it in a mechanical room in the middle of the house which require multiple returns. Balancing valves (Griswold) or circuit setters (B & G) will be needed. Globe valves are not the best idea because they can fall out of adjustment for a number of reasons. And, the danger of thermal stacking will require proper piping layout at the return connection. For those who aren't sure of how the piping should be configured, the installation diagram of the tempering valve of your choice is a good start. Helpful reading; http://www.plumbingengineer.com/may_10/code.php It's a little complicated. But, complicated is good in that it separates the wheat from the chaff. All this and no mention of the dangers of possible pin hole leaks induced by unprofessional installations.


That was some good reading 
And knowledgeable


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Leach713 said:


> That was some good reading
> And knowledgeable


You get more reading from Farm Heros game!


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

First for pics are from one water heater in house with 3 separate HWR lines, last 2 are second water heater in house with 2 separate HWR lines. This was an 11 bath room house I finished today. Passed inspection with flying colors. It is officially the largest house in the town of Vienna VA.


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

Do you have balancing valves in those HWR's?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

redbeardplumber said:


> Do you have balancing valves in those HWR's?


Yep..its there RedBeard.. but using a BLACK tee at the return of water heater???????


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Is that a back tee or galvi? Also if you're using brass to separate copper from iron, use at least 6"

And how are gonna drain the tank?


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

How are you planning to bleed the air out of the system?


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Yep..its there RedBeard.. but using a BLACK tee at the return of water heater???????


Right.... Looks like regular ball valves.... They will work I take it.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

redbeardplumber said:


> Right.... Looks like regular ball valves.... They will work I take it.


Balancing valves are more precise. And are more tamper resistant, childproof whatever. You need a screwdriver to turn them. That big yellow lever to a kid looks like fun times. Also noticed a bullheaded. Good thing there is a valve for balancing.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Plumbus said:


> How are you planning to bleed the air out of the system?


Very easy.. when the hot water side faucets open... there goes the air.. simple hydronic heating principle..


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

rjbphd said:


> Very easy.. when the hot water side faucets open... there goes the air.. simple hydronic heating principle..


Maybe in Chicago but not anywhere I've plumbed. If there's air between the last hot tap and the pump there will be repercussions. If you've never experienced this, you lead a charmed life.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

Plumbus said:


> Maybe in Chicago but not anywhere I've plumbed. If there's air between the last hot tap and the pump there will be repercussions. If you've never experienced this, you lead a charmed life.


Yep, I always go BV, pump, check, hose bib, BV, then into drain port of heater with 3 1/2" brass nip, brass tee, and another BV to drain tank. That way you can purge the air all the way through the pump and check.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Plumbus said:


> Maybe in Chicago but not anywhere I've plumbed. If there's air between the last hot tap and the pump there will be repercussions. If you've never experienced this, you lead a charmed life.


No, its matter of piping it in correctly.. not charmed, hydronic heating way...


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

redbeardplumber said:


> Right.... Looks like regular ball valves.... They will work I take it.


 looks like they have no way of balancing the flow ball valves are at best a poor attempt there is no way of checking how much is flowing threw the valve. The tee is stainless I do believe.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

all of my residential circulated systems have only a single line so no balance valve required but the one pictured w 3 lines going back to the tank I think needs balancing and the ones we used on commercial jobs were called "circuit setters" don't know if its a brand name or what but they allow you to adjust the flow. makes for a proper install I belive


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

jeffreyplumber said:


> all of my residential circulated systems have only a single line so no balance valve required but the one pictured w 3 lines going back to the tank I think needs balancing and the ones we used on commercial jobs were called "circuit setters" don't know if its a brand name or what but they allow you to adjust the flow. makes for a proper install I belive


 balancing valves is the type circuit setters is bell and gosset term I do believe. They all make them my favorite is B&G they are a very solid product. Armstrong is the same thing but from canada I believe . Around here even single line circulating loops,if a pump is used we put a balance valve down stream of the pump. This insures that the flow isn't to hi. I have run into lines without balance valves that hi flow and excessive turbulence has drilled a hole in the line. It also erodes all the copper just like a waterfall does to stone.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Yep balance valve or circuit setter. Same thing. And I too prefer one to keep flow at a min. Also makes system more efficient

How do you know how to set your balance valve. By the temp on the circ line ?


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Yep balance valve or circuit setter. Same thing. And I too prefer one to keep flow at a min. Also makes system more efficient How do you know how to set your balance valve. By the temp on the circ line ?


 you can get pre set gpm orfice type or you can use the percentage scale. Each size has a maximum flow rate at a certain psi so you could get it close like that if you size the balance valve for the flow rate. My favorite is to use the preset ,Griswold,flow dynamics and others all make them. They are nice because you use them like a ball valve but when you turn them on it is set to the designed flow rate. The downside is they are not adjustable.


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

Learning lots guys....


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## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

love2surf927 said:


> I understand after reading a little about balancing valves, thank you. My question was for rj about tying into cold feed or bottom of tank. I always do them to the drain that's how I was taught and that's how they're done around here for the most part just curious what the difference is I can't seem to think of anything substantial.




I prefer tying the recirc back to the drain mainly because I don't like the thought of pumping through a dip tube. Its also the only way to fly if you're going with a convective recirc set-up so far as I'm concerned (the dip tube will be getting heated by the water surrounding it, reducing the density differential)

I used the little 1/2" Grundfos recirc pump and a 3/4" recirc line. I'll only run 1/2" if its as a branch and there's still a 3/4' main recirc. I spend far too much time replacing & upgrading undersized and over-pumped lines that I'll never do such a thing myself.


As a side note, the stiles on my timberframed front deck rails are all take-out 3/4" copper recirc lines that I repurposed. I used a scotchbrite pad to take off all the printing ink and they've all weathered to a nice patina.


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## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

love2surf927 said:


> Yep, I always go BV, pump, check, hose bib, BV, then into drain port of heater with 3 1/2" brass nip, brass tee, and another BV to drain tank. That way you can purge the air all the way through the pump and check.


I also do this. Highly recommended. Why hope there's no air locks when you can pipe this configuration and purge it at full flow?


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

CaberTosser said:


> I prefer tying the recirc back to the drain mainly because I don't like the thought of pumping through a dip tube. Its also the only way to fly if you're going with a convective recirc set-up so far as I'm concerned (the dip tube will be getting heated by the water surrounding it, reducing the density differential) I used the little 1/2" Grundfos recirc pump and a 3/4" recirc line. I'll only run 1/2" if its as a branch and there's still a 3/4' main recirc. I spend far too much time replacing & upgrading undersized and over-pumped lines that I'll never do such a thing myself. As a side note, the stiles on my timberframed front deck rails are all take-out 3/4" copper recirc lines that I repurposed. I used a scotchbrite pad to take off all the printing ink and they've all weathered to a nice patina.


never thought about using old recirculating line for that. I have a local hospital that I will be removing the entire recirculating line and replacing it within the next year or so I might just try something like that.


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## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

Mike Cook, regarding your pics I have some food for thought. At the water heater you have the gas cock after the tee at the drip pocket; usually when piping the gas from scratch I will locate the gas cock higher than the height of the tank so that the drop downstream of the valve can be removed to allow for easy replacement without shutting off all of the buildings gas. I will also cut this drop to a length that requires a coupling and a nipple about 4" long so that there is built-in allowance for the varying gas control heights on future water heaters. It also allows for small errors on cutting the drop, say if you forgot to add a fitting allowance or something (not that such a thing ever happens:whistling2


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

wyrickmech said:


> balancing valves is the type circuit setters is bell and gosset term I do believe. They all make them my favorite is B&G they are a very solid product. Armstrong is the same thing but from canada I believe . Around here even single line circulating loops,if a pump is used we put a balance valve down stream of the pump. This insures that the flow isn't to hi. I have run into lines without balance valves that hi flow and excessive turbulence has drilled a hole in the line. It also erodes all the copper just like a waterfall does to stone.


eggcanty my friggin point of the pump being way oversized!... I just take them out and if the system works fine without it.. I'm done.. if needs alittle help.. I get the lowest flo pump or if that bad, I cut the impeller down..


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> eggcanty my friggin point of the pump being way oversized!... I just take them out and if the system works fine without it.. I'm done.. if needs alittle help.. I get the lowest flo pump or if that bad, I cut the impeller down..


 I see your point but most houses around here exceed the size where a gravity system will work. Just like the 11 bath house that the young plumber shared the photos on. The size of a pump is just as important as the size of a drain you need to be Abel to know how to do it. You get close then regulate it with a balance valve. This concept is no different than a regulator on a gas line slowing the gas to the proper flow and pressure. When a pump is needed a balance valve makes it posable to control the flow accurately.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Anyone familiar with these?

http://www.circuitsolver.com/


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## smoldrn (Oct 4, 2010)

Discussions like these are why I like this site. I've always dumped my return back into the cold line, but I see some advantages to feeding back to the drain, as well. The balancing valve was new to me, but makes perfect sense.
My old boss man used to tell me that ya learn something new all the time, no matter how long you've been doing it, & that when ya quit learning, just go ahead & die.:laughing:


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Another reason for returning at the bottom is the turbulence you'll create which may (I can't prove this) help evacuate sediment and keep it from building up.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

rjbphd said:


> No, its matter of piping it in correctly.. not charmed, hydronic heating way...


Can you post a drawing of what you are talking about. I'm a bit confused because you said earlier that you didn't like to use pumps.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Plumbus said:


> Another reason for returning at the bottom is the turbulence you'll create which may (I can't prove this) help evacuate sediment and keep it from building up.


yes there is no disadvantage to going into the bottom and you bring up a good point about sediment. I don't think the commercial units have the issue with the dip tube because the flow rates are a lot higher than the return pump will ever flow and most are setup with a aqua stat so when the water temp hits 90 to100 it cycles off. This would keep the temp in the cold inlet down.


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## tims007 (Aug 31, 2013)

smoldrn said:


> Discussions like these are why I like this site. I've always dumped my return back into the cold line, but I see some advantages to feeding back to the drain, as well. The balancing valve was new to me, but makes perfect sense.
> My old boss man used to tell me that ya learn something new all the time, no matter how long you've been doing it, & that when ya quit learning, just go ahead & die.:laughing:


dito ... the whole statement


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

^^^^^ me as well... A few new things for me as well in this thread....

Makes me think how how unfortunate I was to not have a good teacher...and fortunate I am for this site


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## jtplumber (Jan 21, 2014)

rjbphd said:


> That's correct way and I don't use any stinky pump if the system is piped correctly


 same as I do and have for many years. Although now there is a grundfos pump with timer and it has a check type tee you install on the supplies of your farthest lav. It recircs quite well and eleminates the need for a separate line running back to h2o htr.


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## SSP (Dec 14, 2013)

Ya you may have passed inspection... But you did yourself no favors in the process! Why not install a balancing loop downstream of your recirc to ensure even flow ? 

drywallers are gonna hate your piping being directly on the face of the studs.. After they butcher some gypsum around all your piping and slap a few buckets of mud all over i'd be double checking your swing checks and pump for damages ..


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

SSP said:


> Ya you may have passed inspection... But you did yourself no favors in the process! Why not install a balancing loop downstream of your recirc to ensure even flow ? drywallers are gonna hate your piping being directly on the face of the studs.. After they butcher some gypsum around all your piping and slap a few buckets of mud all over i'd be double checking your swing checks and pump for damages ..


Downstream? I have a hot feed from heater going to bathroom groups, at each bathroom group a 1/2 tee was cut in and sent back to heater, they each got valves to adjust/balance properly, and then they go threw the pump and into bottom of heater. If they were below the pump, what would feed the pump? 

Also, it's a mechanical room with no drywall. Otherwise your right, that would have been a mess


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

love2surf927 said:


> I had a general I used to do work for in super high end homes in Rancho Santa Fe and we would take the circ lines all the way down the wall to the fixture, literally instant hot water.


Best way to do it. In so many hospitals and schools, they tie the returns together in the ceiling. The low flow .5 gpf faucets don't use enough of the water that has cooled down overnight in the last 30' of 3/4" or 1" to get tempered water without a 3-4 minute wait.


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## SSP (Dec 14, 2013)

Michaelcookplum said:


> Downstream? I have a hot feed from heater going to bathroom groups, at each bathroom group a 1/2 tee was cut in and sent back to heater, they each got valves to adjust/balance properly, and then they go threw the pump and into bottom of heater. If they were below the pump, what would feed the pump?


Ah sorry to confuse you, i looked at the one picture wrong, and thought you were trying to pump away from HWT ... :laughing: but it looks all good :thumbsup:


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## jtplumber (Jan 21, 2014)

Grundfos Comfort System | Grundfos
us.grundfos.com/.../comfort-pumps-up-1...
Grundfos Comfort System - Hot Water Recirculation System The water circulation system that eliminates cold water ...


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

wyrickmech said:


> the globe valve is not capable of being controlled so you know how much water is passing threw it. The balance valve meters flow and has ports so you can accurately read how much water is going threw it. They do make a pre set flow meter valve which has a orfice that only allows a set amount of water threw but you can still use it as a shutoff. There is many options.


you can take a ball valve and use it as balance valve also,just run the water and set the flow accorddingly


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

sparky said:


> you can take a ball valve and use it as balance valve also,just run the water and set the flow accorddingly


 Ball valves were not ment to be used for flow control. They were shut off only


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

wyrickmech said:


> Ball valves were not ment to be used for flow control. They were shut off only


Says who? The plumbing police?


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

wyrickmech said:


> Ball valves were not ment to be used for flow control. They were shut off only


you are right,but they can and will work as a balance valve,and if you do put in a regular circuit setter you are not gonna pay anyone to come in and balance the system anyways so why put it in in the first place???if you don't have the tools to balance the circuit setter why use it at all???I can balance a system pretty dang close with a regular ball valve,all you are doing is cutting down the flow,no big deal.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

sparky said:


> you are right,but they can and will work as a balance valve,and if you do put in a regular circuit setter you are not gonna pay anyone to come in and balance the system anyways so why put it in in the first place???if you don't have the tools to balance the circuit setter why use it at all???I can balance a system pretty dang close with a regular ball valve,all you are doing is cutting down the flow,no big deal.


 that is why I said I prefer the preset orifice type. If you have a simple system you may get away with a ball valve but if you have multiple floors with four circuits per floor you put the balance valves in. I have never put one in that wasn't set by balance contractor.


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## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

Michaelcookplum said:


> Says who? The plumbing police?


He is correct, the significant turbulence downstream of a ball valve when its throttled in a system that circulates constantly will cause pitting. No if's and's or but's about it. No need to be defensive about learning you've been doing it wrong until now, just please start doing it right. I was no different until I found out about them, and I'm sure the same could be said for many other fellows here. When someone throttles flow its generally because of excess flow (or wanting to balance flow to more distant piping runs). Use the thing called a _circuit balancing valve,_ there is a reason they're named that after all..... Note the test ports intended for a technician to be able to actually set the pressure differential across the valve using a differential gauge.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

wyrickmech said:


> that is why I said I prefer the preset orifice type. If you have a simple system you may get away with a ball valve but if you have multiple floors with four circuits per floor you put the balance valves in. I have never put one in that wasn't set by balance contractor.


if its on a commercial job or has several different circuits then I would use them,but for a house or something small with one or two lines,i would just put in ball valves and set it myself,i have put ball valves in goin on 20yrs now in a recir system and no pin holes as of yet.not to say it cant happen but with todays cheap azz Chinese copper you get pin holes on regular domestic hot and cold lines.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

I still say this is an intriguing option. I just wish I could road test it without making a commitment that could come back to bite me in the arse.
http://www.circuitsolver.com/


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Plumbus said:


> I still say this is an intriguing option. I just wish I could road test it without making a commitment that could come back to bite me in the arse. http://www.circuitsolver.com/


that is a very interesting item who handles them in the states?


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Plumbus said:


> I still say this is an intriguing option. I just wish I could road test it without making a commitment that could come back to bite me in the arse.
> http://www.circuitsolver.com/


thank you for posting this,i like the idea and thought process behind it,but I have my doubts but I wish I could have been the one to invent this thing,i can see how it could work,anybody ever been around one???????


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

if these things really did work and all,just to show you how tough ky code is,it would have to be brought before the state plumbing code committee and show them the pros and cons of it then they would vote on whether to approve it for use statewide or not.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Plumbus said:


> Another reason for returning at the bottom is the turbulence you'll create which may (I can't prove this) help evacuate sediment and keep it from building up.


yes,the Bradford white water heaters have the hydrojet feature which is different holes angled in the dip tube causing the turbualance,and putting the return at the bottom would cause turbulence also,but I always tie mine back into the cold water inlet at the water heater,no problems that I know of,by the time a dip tube wears out from recirc. water the water heater itself will be leaking and ready for replacement,if you get 10yrs out of any water heater nowadays you are doing good.i know there are exceptions,but you all know what I mean....


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## drain surgeon (Jun 17, 2010)

As far as I know a gravity system will only work if the water heater is lower than the majority of the supply and fixtures. Hard to do with a crawl or slab.


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## Oakum (Mar 30, 2009)

Wow,I saw an 11 bath house some pages back with a single 40 gal HW tank!? Surely Im mistaken.


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## Oakum (Mar 30, 2009)

Also wanted to throw out there that they have point of use Recirc. pumps that are pretty neat. They come with a little manifold and braided supply lines to loop it right under the desired fixture. Grundfos makes them.


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

Oakum said:


> Also wanted to throw out there that they have point of use Recirc. pumps that are pretty neat. They come with a little manifold and braided supply lines to loop it right under the desired fixture. Grundfos makes them.


Those work well, only delivers hot water to sink right away though. Only down fall vs loop system is If hot water line for shower or tub aren't tee'd in off the same feed it won't get you water to those fixtures as fast.


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## d78coots (Mar 30, 2009)

pigskin plumber said:


> Okay.. so are you're not on this thread to help out.
> 
> I don't get it. I've been in this trade only 5 years, just got licensed, and went on my own. I do good work, I'm honest, and busy as heck.. it really is great. I'm humbled by how much there really is to know in plumbing and feel extremely fortunate to be part of it. I'm always willing to give a fellow tradesmen help with any issue that I can contribute to, and respectfully listen to anybody especially a senior who has ample experience.
> 
> ...


I find that this is a problem on this site.


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## Keefer w (Jan 26, 2012)

Michaelcookplum said:


> First for pics are from one water heater in house with 3 separate HWR lines, last 2 are second water heater in house with 2 separate HWR lines. This was an 11 bath room house I finished today. Passed inspection with flying colors. It is officially the largest house in the town of Vienna VA.


What street is it on? Would like to do a drive by...


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

Keefer w said:


> What street is it on? Would like to do a drive by...


Moore ave, right off Park st. 201 Moore I believe. From the street it doesn't look that big but you should get out and walk inside. I don't think anyone would care no one would know who you are


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