# faucets crossing over



## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

I would like to hear from anyone who has ever run across a 4" (American Standard) single lever faucets that would let cold water through the cartridge and contaminate (i.e. LOWER) the re-circ temperatures?
I just got called out by dispatcher, so more details later...
Dave


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

One time I had a lady who would be brushing her teeth in the morning with cold only, and she'd get hot water coming out of the faucet. I traced it back to the tub valve in the same bathroom.

I've also had the opposite; people expecting hot water and getting cold out of a fixture. That was traced back to a faulty check valve at the W/H on the hot re-circ line.


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## bhawk4747 (Mar 1, 2012)

Had a kholer mixing valve allowing water to pass thru when it was off, causing a toliet on another floor to fill with hot water


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

Thanks for your reply.
I've had tub valves do this before, but never a sink faucet. Pressure balance tub cartridges, yup, check them right off the bat, but a sink faucet? I discovered this by turning on one of the faucets to full hot and then shutting off the angle stop of the hot supply line. The bugger was running cold water (about 25% of the normal flow rate) with the handle in the hot position. Really weird thing was, it was a twin sink counter top and BOTH faucets were doing this. I turned off the four angle stops and asked the customer to go through the weekend like this and report back to me Sunday evening to see if system has returned to "normal". This situation has been going on since December (2011) when our tech installed her a new water heater. The circ pump was replaced as part of that sale and the system has had customer complaints ever since. I'm hoping she calls me tomorrow with good news...
Dave


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

bhawk4747 said:


> Had a kholer mixing valve allowing water to pass thru when it was off, causing a toliet on another floor to fill with hot water


 I had the exact same thing about a month ago. Kohler shower mixer was causing hot water in cold water pipes in 2 baths, on one end of house. Changed the cartridge, & all was fixed. Customer told me it had been doing that for about 2 yrs, & progressively got worse.


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## bhawk4747 (Mar 1, 2012)

Don The Plumber said:


> I had the exact same thing about a month ago. Kohler shower mixer was causing hot water in cold water pipes in 2 baths, on one end of house. Changed the cartridge, & all was fixed. Customer told me it had been doing that for about 2 yrs, & progressively got worse.


Yeah the lady said other plumbers said the pipes are crossed and need to open walls. I didn't believe that and got lucky the valve had shut offs so I could isolate it. Otherwise the circ pump was just pushing hot thru


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

bhawk4747 said:


> Yeah the lady said other plumbers said the pipes are crossed and need to open walls. I didn't believe that and got lucky the valve had shut offs so I could isolate it. Otherwise the circ pump was just pushing hot thru


 
Yea, it was a bit hard to find, & this lady had several handy type guys look at the problem, but they would never figure it out. So all I did was remove the trim plate on the shower valve, & run some cold water to not only make sure hot & cold were on correct sides, but to get the cold water pipe nice & cold. I put my hand on the outside of pipe, & within a minute, I could feel the cold pipe getting hot. Not a big deal for a plumber to figure out, but I just had never seen a shower valve do that, & wanted to verify, that was it. And yes it was a Kohler. I think its another one of their hush, hush defects. Faucet was not dripping, or giving any other indication, it was in need of replacement.

This lady had hot water going into her toilets too. The rubbers on the flush valves were mush. Had to replace all the parts in the toilets. Lucky they didn't crack &/or break.


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## grandpa (Jul 13, 2008)

BigDave said:


> I would like to hear from anyone who has ever run across a 4" (American Standard) single lever faucets that would let cold water through the cartridge and contaminate (i.e. LOWER) the re-circ temperatures?
> I just got called out by dispatcher, so more details later...
> Dave


I think the answer others have given matches my understanding and experience, which is that if there is a crossover in a pumped recirc system, then HOT crosses over to the cold pipes. BUT you are suggesting that somehow COLD is getting into the HOT pipes. That is different and unexpected. Tell us what you find/.


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

grandpa said:


> I think the answer others have given matches my understanding and experience, which is that if there is a crossover in a pumped recirc system, then HOT crosses over to the cold pipes. BUT you are suggesting that somehow COLD is getting into the HOT pipes. That is different and unexpected. Tell us what you find/.


Very different indeed! On Friday, after discovering the faucets would run cold water (with the handles in the hot position) and the hot side angle stops closed. I closed all four angle stops and told the lady to call me on Sunday night. Just heard from her and she is pleased to report plenty of really hot water coming very quickly to all faucets and tubs all over the house :thumbsup:

Just can't get over the fact that twin lav faucets caused all this fuss


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## Lmp (Oct 17, 2011)

I just had a call for the same thing but this was a 40 story building and only was happening in one line ( b line). Had to go thru 39 apartments before I found a Kohler showerbody cartridge was bypassing hot water into the cold. I shut the hot water feeding that apartment for 2 days and told the supt. to let me know if they still have a problem, he called me on Friday to let me know everything is good. Unit owner was told by the building management that they are responsible for the bill and I'm waiting for them to let me know if they want me to repair it. This is why most building in NYC have check valves installed on the hot and cold water branch lines feeding each apt. in the alteration agreements when a apt. Is being renovated


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Very common problem with single handle faucets. When ever I get a call about hot water coming out of the cold or cold coming out of the hot, first thing I do is check all the single lever faucets. In most cases all the faucets need to be rebuilt anyways.


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

Lmp said:


> Had to go thru 39 apartments. Unit owner was told by the building management that they are responsible for the bill.


Hopefully you bill by the hour!


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## Lmp (Oct 17, 2011)

BigDave said:


> Hopefully you bill by the hour!


I think that's the only way to bill in NYC, to much bs to bill flat rate.


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## CentralPlumbing (Jan 22, 2009)

Very interesting topic and some great information. :thumbsup:


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

I'm a bit embarrassed on this one...:whistling2:
Turns out the faucets in question have a limit stop underneath the handle.
http://www.plumbingpartsdepot.com/asreliantsllav.pdf
I removed the rings and they are now "fixed".
They will now produce water at full hot and customer is happy.

When I first arrived on this warranty call, the customer told me this situation started since we replaced her water heater last Dec.
Upon finding fixes for all her complaints, and we were winding down to a finish, she let it slip that it's now working for the first time in 5 YEARS
We were lied to from the get go :furious:
With all the free "warranty work" we did, my labor lost us the entire cost and profit from the sale of the water heater.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

BigDave said:


> I would like to hear from anyone who has ever run across a 4" (American Standard) single lever faucets that would let cold water through the cartridge and contaminate (i.e. LOWER) the re-circ temperatures?
> I just got called out by dispatcher, so more details later...
> Dave


Dave I can tell you for an absolute certainty that 
American Standard single lever faucets *NEVER MALFUNCTION!!!* 
(after I put them in the scrap bin)


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> Dave I can tell you for an absolute certainty that
> American Standard single lever faucets *NEVER MALFUNCTION!!!*
> (after I put them in the scrap bin)


Biz, could we say you're NOT an American :thumbdown: Standard fan boy?
:laughing:


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> Very common problem with single handle faucets. When ever I get a call about hot water coming out of the cold or cold coming out of the hot, first thing I do is check all the single lever faucets. In most cases all the faucets need to be rebuilt anyways.


You say very common. What single handle faucets have you had, that do this, other than Kohler? I have had only a few experiences, of this happening, in a home, & every time, it was a kohler.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

BigDave said:


> Biz, could we say you're NOT an American :thumbdown: Standard fan boy?
> :laughing:


You sir are very perceptive. :thumbup:


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