# Ge water heater dancing flame



## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

Got a call today, the gas company shut off a ge heater because of a dancing orange flame. I figured it was not getting enough combustion air. I removed the burner assembly and cleaned the screen using a brush and compressed air, rinse and repeat three times and still same issue. Check the gas, the inlet screen on the gas valve nothing. I broke the sight glass out in a desperate attempt to hold them over until tommorow, (stupid move i know) still the same thing. The expansion tank was full of water and the nipples on the top of the heater were obviously pointed toward the flue signaling thermal expansion. I have read about the flue being compressed due to thermal expansion. Has anybody experienced this? What are the symptoms, and how can you test for this? I probably won't be going back since its a cheap azz slum lord, but the tenant is a friend I was doing her a favor. I just want to know what the issue was. And as a side note I will mention, I did all this before checking the date (another stupid I know) turns out its under warranty. I've never dealt with he warranty but I would imagine I voided the warranty when I broke the sight glass. Anybody with any experience? Thanks guys let the lashings begin!!


----------



## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

You wanna hear stupid? Today at my best commercial client, I backed into a porch and broke a $5.00 piece of wood and then cut the hand of the chief maintenance man trying to help me cut out some abs drain. Not a good day.

As for your water heater...idk. I thought I'd share some stupid with ya. Have a better tomorrow.


----------



## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I had a similar issue recently with I believe a whirlpool WH. The flame was blue though but for lack of better description looked like a fireball and would go out. It was out of warranty. I never did find out the issue.


----------



## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Sounds like its too rich. Try opening all of the doors to the heater since you have cleaned it well and see what happens. You want to give it all the air you can give it and watch the flame. Check gas pressures.


----------



## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

Gettinit said:


> Sounds like its too rich. Try opening all of the doors to the heater since you have cleaned it well and see what happens. You want to give it all the air you can give it and watch the flame. Check gas pressures.


I unscrewed the opening and fired it up like that with the opening cracked about an inch, it did help but it still wasn't great. That made me think it probably had something to do with combustion air, but when I got home I happened to show my wife a handout I have about thermal expansion and I saw the drawing with the pinched flue. Now if that was the case then it seems to me that when I took the cover off that helped the flue gases escape as well, which means that diagnosing this it like this maybe didn't give me a definitive answer. Do you guys sometimes get these types of heaters (GE) that you just can't get the screen clean? Is there a better way of cleaning the screen? The closet it's in IS pretty small and also pretty dirty. Also the heater was on bricks inside a pan (real piece of work I know)and I felt a brick in the center. Is there another air inlet on the bottom or is it just the sides. I know it comes through the bottom I the inside of the chamber.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

love2surf927 said:


> Got a call today, the gas company shut off a ge heater because of a dancing orange flame. I figured it was not getting enough combustion air. I removed the burner assembly and cleaned the screen using a brush and compressed air, rinse and repeat three times and still same issue. Check the gas, the inlet screen on the gas valve nothing. I broke the sight glass out in a desperate attempt to hold them over until tommorow, (stupid move i know) still the same thing. The expansion tank was full of water and *the nipples on the top of the heater were obviously pointed toward the flue* signaling thermal expansion. I have read about the flue being compressed due to thermal expansion. Has anybody experienced this? What are the symptoms, and how can you test for this? I probably won't be going back since its a cheap azz slum lord, but the tenant is a friend I was doing her a favor. I just want to know what the issue was. And as a side note I will mention, I did all this before checking the date (another stupid I know) turns out its under warranty. I've never dealt with he warranty but I would imagine I voided the warranty when I broke the sight glass. Anybody with any experience? Thanks guys let the lashings begin!!



I never would of touched that heater upon inspection. Tank is destroyed, there's obviously numerous things wrong and last person that touches it, owns it. 

That heater needs to be replaced, and solve the other issues before reinstallation.


----------



## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

love2surf927 said:


> I unscrewed the opening and fired it up like that with the opening cracked about an inch, it did help but it still wasn't great. That made me think it probably had something to do with combustion air, but when I got home I happened to show my wife a handout I have about thermal expansion and I saw the drawing with the pinched flue. Now if that was the case then it seems to me that when I took the cover off that helped the flue gases escape as well, which means that diagnosing this it like this maybe didn't give me a definitive answer. Do you guys sometimes get these types of heaters (GE) that you just can't get the screen clean? Is there a better way of cleaning the screen? The closet it's in IS pretty small and also pretty dirty. Also the heater was on bricks inside a pan (real piece of work I know)and I felt a brick in the center. Is there another air inlet on the bottom or is it just the sides. I know it comes through the bottom I the inside of the chamber.


Call tech support for the best way to clean it. When I mean open all the doors I meant room doors. Where is it pulling fresh air from? It cannot breathe in a closet without (without a code book) two six inch pipes. 

When you took the door off the heater was their a lot of heat coming out? Did you put a match to the draft hood to see if it was pulling or pushing? If the fresh air came in through the bottom you found your issue with the brick blocking the hole.


----------



## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

Gettinit said:


> Call tech support for the best way to clean it. When I mean open all the doors I meant room doors. Where is it pulling fresh air from? It cannot breathe in a closet without (without a code book) two six inch pipes.
> 
> When you took the door off the heater was their a lot of heat coming out? Did you put a match to the draft hood to see if it was pulling or pushing? If the fresh air came in through the bottom you found your issue with the brick blocking the hole.


I know what you meant about the doors. The match is exactly the tip I needed I have never heard of that test. As far as the brick it seems hard to imagine it worked for 3 and a half years, but who knows how well it was actually working.


----------



## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I never would of touched that heater upon inspection. Tank is destroyed, there's obviously numerous things wrong and last person that touches it, owns it.
> 
> That heater needs to be replaced, and solve the other issues before reinstallation.


Thank you, I'm still young and dumb and forever trying to learn. I was trying to help a friend, but we all know how that gos no good deed goes unpunished. I do enjoy helping people with my skills it just seems like it never works out well. Like I said her slum lord will hire Juan to install another one so I probably won't be going back just looking for some tips on what else this might be. I appreciate the advice and entirely understand your point.


----------



## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

Check gas pressure and the vet pipe.


----------



## AndersenPlumbing (Jan 23, 2010)

I removed 5 birds from a boiler flue once. :whistling2:


----------



## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

Regarding the match test to check if the chimney is drawing, I'll sometimes grab some TP and pull it apart to have a single sheet that is more flexible and has decent surface area. By holding it steady and bringing it towards the draft hood slowly one can see how well the chimneys pulling if the sheet is drawn into the flue. This saves lighting anything on fire. HVAC supply houses usually have squeeze bottles with a very fine powder in them that's used for checking airflow as well. I'd lean towards a sticky gas regulator in the gas control; when you said you checked the gas do you mean you actually used a manometer to take pressure readings? Fluctuations on the gauge there would explain your situation. When looking for pressure fluctuations I prefer using my analog gauge to my digital gauge for better feedback on pulsing.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

I have broken a few glass opening as there's is NO safety since the open pilot flame on boiler right next to it as well open flame gas dryer in the same room... to check the intergal of collapsed flue, the baffle inside will be jammed, instead of jiggy lose.


----------



## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

Did you look down inside the heater? those are known to bulge the flue inside the heater and cause that. Reguardless it has to be changed. Take it to HD and swap it out.


----------



## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

sounds to me like a air intake problem and i have tried all kinds of ways to clean them. its tuff. I use a compressed air can like for keyboards. the holes are so small brushes and such dont work. I usually pull the burner cover plate off to test air intake. If the flame changes to normal with it off then acts up when reinstalled then you will know. 

But with the time youd spend diagnosing if its under warranty it would be quicker to change out. Alliance hwt are the worst for customer service and warranty help. Im not sure if GE is the same manufacter


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Hey I found the problem.. It's a GE!

Hunk of sh*t.. I wouldn't have touched it. 

Maybe the burner is damaged.. Ive had that problem before where it just won't burn right.. New water heater is the cure. 

I'm sure they need a new high efficiency water heater.. All day job running new gas and venting.. That's my solution.


----------



## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

Plumberman911 said:


> sounds to me like a air intake problem and i have tried all kinds of ways to clean them. its tuff. I use a compressed air can like for keyboards. the holes are so small brushes and such dont work. I usually pull the burner cover plate off to test air intake. If the flame changes to normal with it off then acts up when reinstalled then you will know.
> 
> But with the time youd spend diagnosing if its under warranty it would be quicker to change out. Alliance hwt are the worst for customer service and warranty help. Im not sure if GE is the same manufacter


GE is Rheem... Home Depot handles warranty exchange


----------



## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

mightypipe said:


> GE is Rheem... Home Depot handles warranty exchange


Say it isn't true ! 
Rheem has been my go to water heater for years.


----------



## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Say it isn't true !
> Rheem has been my go to water heater for years.


Its very true!! look at one of the stickes next time your in HD..All it is a rebadged Rheem.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Say it isn't true !
> Rheem has been my go to water heater for years.


You can't tell the differeance from Rheem/Richmond vs the GE??


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Say it isn't true !
> Rheem has been my go to water heater for years.


Manufactured by rheem but not like a rheem. GE is a hunk of sh*t that's made in Mexico. 

Rheem just happen to be the lowest bidder on the contract.


----------



## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Manufactured by rheem but not like a rheem. GE is a hunk of sh*t that's made in Mexico.
> 
> Rheem just happen to be the lowest bidder on the contract.


So it's NOT just a Rheem fury? I haven't looked real close. They are similar.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

mightypipe said:


> So it's NOT just a Rheem fury? I haven't looked real close. They are similar.


All the same with different color


----------



## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

REPLACE that pos water heater. It is one I the worst heaters made. Do not get sucked into it. The customer doesn't know and will expect you to be a miracle maker.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

johntheplumber said:


> REPLACE that pos water heater. It is one I the worst heaters made. Do not get sucked into it. The customer doesn't know and will expect you to be a miracle maker.


So John. What brand you install???


----------



## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

If a water heater is 6 years or older i always recomended replace, If its under warranty get a new one from manufactor.


----------



## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

Im a bradford white man fyi


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

mightypipe said:


> So it's NOT just a Rheem fury? I haven't looked real close. They are similar.




Is the rheem fury made in Mexico?


----------



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

State and AO Smith made in USA!


----------



## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> So John. What brand you install???


Bradford White. Have been installing them for 15 years. Of course I've worked on many other brands but BW is IMO the best heater out there for tank. I've installed about 1500 of them and had only 1 or 2 have any sort of manufacturer defect. They typically last a good 10-15 years.


----------



## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

Tank hierarchy: 1) Bradford White. 2) Rheem 3)State 4) A.O. Smith 

GE, Whirlpool, American Waterheaters are all crap. I have replaced literally hundreds of these that have flooded, under warranty, and have caused untold 10's of thousands and probably more like hundreds of thousands of dollars combined of property damage.


----------



## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

I went to work on a Whirlpool awhile back that had a dancing yellow flame. It was clean and the home owner who owns a large electrial contracting company we do business with had one of his goons get the update kit and install it.

They did a good job cleaning and installing the kit, but they forgot to remove the orfie from the old burner assembly. I would check that, it should be pretty obvious and you will spend an hour and waste a shop vac filter trying to clean all the black soot out of the vent and off the baffle.


----------



## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

The flue pipe was pinched caused by thermal expansion. I gave her landlord my price to replace with a Bradford, expansion tank, pan, etc and he never called back. Jose will install another GE from hd and they'll have the same problem again. Oh well.


----------



## dplumb (Jan 6, 2013)

Definitely a bad mix of gas/combustion air. Is the proper orifice in?


----------



## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

I've previously seen issues from sticky regulators at the gas meter. Obviously thats the utility providers issue to fix, but if there's a sticking reg it could perhaps depend on the flow rate.... _potentially. _I've not seen it, but am thinking a bit outside the box.


----------



## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

CaberTosser said:


> Regarding the match test to check if the chimney is drawing, I'll sometimes grab some TP and pull it apart to have a single sheet that is more flexible and has decent surface area. By holding it steady and bringing it towards the draft hood slowly one can see how well the chimneys pulling if the sheet is drawn into the flue. This saves lighting anything on fire. HVAC supply houses usually have squeeze bottles with a very fine powder in them that's used for checking airflow as well. I'd lean towards a sticky gas regulator in the gas control; when you said you checked the gas do you mean you actually used a manometer to take pressure readings? Fluctuations on the gauge there would explain your situation. When looking for pressure fluctuations I prefer using my analog gauge to my digital gauge for better feedback on pulsing.





Gettinit said:


> Call tech support for the best way to clean it. When I mean open all the doors I meant room doors. Where is it pulling fresh air from? It cannot breathe in a closet without (without a code book) two six inch pipes.
> 
> When you took the door off the heater was their a lot of heat coming out? Did you put a match to the draft hood to see if it was pulling or pushing? If the fresh air came in through the bottom you found your issue with the brick blocking the hole.


 
jeez. Yall shoud get one of these. Before someone get hurt someday.


----------



## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

RealLivePlumber said:


> jeez. Yall shoud get one of these. Before someone get hurt someday.


With his assessment of the brick and in a closet the very first thing to look at would be combustion air. It takes two seconds to open a door. It has been running like this for who knows how long. He would have used the draft gauge if he had one already so I told him about the match to quickly check if there is a draft. Nobody would have gotten hurt by the whole big two minutes spent doing what I told him to do. Get off yourself bud. :laughing:


----------



## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I'm not on myself. 

If you're not using the proper tools and procedures, your really just guessing. You are not doing the customer justice.


----------



## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

RealLivePlumber said:


> jeez. Yall shoud get one of these. Before someone get hurt someday.


 
The absence of such a guage will not result in "somebody get hurt someday" if a person uses good techniques and applies studious, educated thought. Your analogy would insinuate that a cabinetmaker who can make gorgeous hand-cut dovetails is somehow inferior to a guy with a nice router jig. There's many ways to skin a cat.

That being said, thanks for sharing and I'm going to look one of those up, more because I'm a tool junkie than feeling underequipped.


----------



## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

CaberTosser said:


> The absence of such a guage will not result in "somebody get hurt someday" if a person uses good techniques and applies studious, educated thought. Your analogy would insinuate that a cabinetmaker who can make gorgeous hand-cut dovetails is somehow inferior to a guy with a nice router jig. There's many ways to skin a cat.
> 
> That being said, thanks for sharing and I'm going to look one of those up, more because I'm a tool junkie than feeling underequipped.


Just get a combustion analyzer and you can get draft and do an analysis. Then you can do boiler pm and tuning.


----------



## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

RealLivePlumber said:


> I'm not on myself.
> 
> If you're not using the proper tools and procedures, your really just guessing. You are not doing the customer justice.


I agree we should all have something like this. Problem is he needed help now and not in a week or two when the tool came in. Its really common sense if you are getting heat bellowing out of the bottom or the top. A camera could be used to go down the vent to check for a blockage if he couldn't see straight down. When you are talking borderline with respect to run, height and sizing of the vent then you really need it versus it being handy to have.


----------



## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

love2surf927 said:


> The flue pipe was pinched caused by thermal expansion. I gave her landlord my price to replace with a Bradford, expansion tank, pan, etc and he never called back. Jose will install another GE from hd and they'll have the same problem again. Oh well.


*You all missed the point !
the expansion tank had failed causing the tank flue to deflect inward causing bad venting and that is why the problem with the flame not burning right, 

because this was a over pressure problem it would not be covered by "any" MFG'S WARRANTY, *


----------



## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

How could over pressure collapse a flue? What happened to the T/P? This could be easily verified by looking down the flue, either with a mirror or camera. 

First question is always, "have you always had this problem" If the answer is no then it's not an installation issue such as the brick or combustion air that was brought up.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

gear junkie said:


> How could over pressure collapse a flue? What happened to the T/P? This could be easily verified by looking down the flue, either with a mirror or camera.
> 
> First question is always, "have you always had this problem" If the answer is no then it's not an installation issue such as the brick or combustion air that was brought up.


Ever seen the t/p corroded shut??? I have, thanks for the weak weld on seams to keeping it from going off like Tex Mech's rocket.


----------



## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

gear junkie said:


> How could over pressure collapse a flue? What happened to the T/P? This could be easily verified by looking down the flue, either with a mirror or camera.
> 
> *Once you have a peak water pressure, any water hammer from fast acting valves, can collapse
> a water heater faster then you can say jack spit
> ...


----------



## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

I have seen one with the nipples bent inward. Pretty wild. I never knew what happened till now.


----------



## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

I prefer Bradford White but hard to get with AO Smith, Rheem, etc pushing them out here and there. State is offering the best service in town so I switched to them. Toured the AO Smith/State factory recently, they rebrand them in a lot of different names. 

David


----------



## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

use a manometer check gas pressure and set to manifold pressure as stated on the rating plate... does it seem the the flue is drafting?


----------



## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

Our AO Smith dealer offers better pricing and packages than any other brand. I set Bradford for years and years. I hate the new gas valve. I switched to Rheem. Now I'm thinking AO Smith. Rheem was black for a while it looked cool. Now there grey


----------



## wyplumber (Feb 14, 2013)

A O smith is our preferred brand I am also not a fan of BW new gas valve


----------

