# Won't flush



## double45 (Sep 7, 2013)

I have a toilet that won't flush. The tank empties the water comes out from around the inside of the rim. The bowl starts to swirl but it just won't go down, and I have augured it five times. I stumped help me out.


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

Question: the flapper is like the one on this picture?


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

double45 said:


> I have a toilet that won't flush. The tank empties the water comes out from around the inside of the rim. The bowl starts to swirl but it just won't go down, and I have augured it five times. I stumped help me out.


pull toilet and rod line. And please don't say it's a vent issue :no:


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

It sounds like the toilet's jets are clogged. You can perform the bucket test to see if the jets are clogged along the rim and or the bottom. Take a five gallon bucket, or something to hold water, and dump it into the toilet quickly and see if it flushes like a champ. What you are doing is by-passing the tank water flowing thru the normal channels into the bowl. If the jets are clogged with calcium they won't allow the water from the tank to flow at the proper flow rate into the bowl. If the water doesn't flow fast enough it won't allow for the siphon effect to occur and all that will happen is a lazy flush where the water simply raises and swirls but fails to actually siphon out. 

Questions: how old is the toilet? A guess at its age is fine.
Did the flushing action stay the same before and after augering?
Did the water ever overflow?
Is this on the 1st fooor?
Is the house a slab house or pier and beam or is there a basement?

I have seen foreign objects like a small round piece of plastic off of a flapper fall down the flush valve and end up at the bottom jet in the throat of the trap. Each time you flush it shoves this small piece of plastic up against the outlet of the jet and slows the water from flowing thru the jet at the proper rate. Then the piece of plastic falls back into the inner channel of the bowl until it gets flushed again. I have seen that a handful of times and it takes some patience to get it out. The little quarter size piece of plastic that holds the float onto the chain on a 1.6 gpf flapper similar to the one Gargalexy posted a photo of here is what I'm talking about.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

PLUMB TIME said:


> pull toilet and rod line. And please don't say it's a vent issue :no:


Not yet. The issue may be in the toilet itself. If nothing else is clogged and the toilets not overflowing or leaking out at the base than its most likely not a clog but clogged jets. Lets see what his answers are to my questions,


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## double45 (Sep 7, 2013)

Gargalaxy said:


> Question: the flapper is like the one on this picture?


No its just a regular corky flapper. Strange thing is it flushes like one in ten


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## double45 (Sep 7, 2013)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> It sounds like the toilet's jets are clogged. You can perform the bucket test to see if the jets are clogged along the rim and or the bottom. Take a five gallon bucket, or something to hold water, and dump it into the toilet quickly and see if it flushes like a champ. What you are doing is by-passing the tank water flowing thru the normal channels into the bowl. If the jets are clogged with calcium they won't allow the water from the tank to flow at the proper flow rate into the bowl. If the water doesn't flow fast enough it won't allow for the siphon effect to occur and all that will happen is a lazy flush where the water simply raises and swirls but fails to actually siphon out.
> 
> Questions: how old is the toilet? A guess at its age is fine.
> Did the flushing action stay the same before and after augering?
> ...


Toilet is less than 5 years old I'd guess. Flushing action stayed the same before and after auger. It's on the 2nd floor house has a basement. Bucket test is a great idea I'm going to try that before I pull the toilet didn't even think of that. If it is clogged jets would something like clr dissolve that?


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

No. If its only 5 years old than most likely its not jammed with calcium. I have seen a toilet clog that wasn't too old but they had really hard and dirty water. Sand was jamming in the bottom jet on that one. Its very rare for a young toilet to jam with calcium but not impossible. Put some gloves on, get an inspection mirror and check that bottom jet. If it has a regular korky in it than the original flapper has been replaced. The one Gargalexy posted a pic of was more than likely similar to the original that came with the toilet. Those have those small quarter size tabs on either side of the float and when inexperienced people replace them they may not catch that one fell into the flush valve. I had one happen like that and I was able to remove the tab from the bottom jet and it worked fine. Two days later I got called back for the same issue. That time the second little disc ended up at the bottom jet. Both had originally fallen but it took a while for the second one to make it to the bottom. 

Standard siphon toilets work based on flow rate and proper volume. That's the other potential issue. If the fill valve isn't replenishing the bowl water after each flush to the proper level than it won't flush normally either. Always check the inner parts when a toilet is clogged. A lot of times people confuse malfunctioning parts for a clog.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

The other thing to ask the HO is how long has this been an issue. How often is the toilet used? Has this been a problem in the past? If so what was the fix at that time or did it resolve itself? Asking more questions before diagnosing is key. If possible try to talk to the HO and not a kid or maid. Getting the history of a problem will tell you volumes and may even change your entire approach.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

double45 said:


> No its just a regular corky flapper. Strange thing is it flushes like one in ten


Check the fill valve. Flushing once in a while is often because the bowl is not refilling and half or more of your flushing water is spent just refilling the bowl.

After flushing, hold the flapper open to be sure the bowl level is at maximum, then after the tank fills up give it a try.

May not be the issue but it is worth checking. Sometimes the most persnickety problems are simple to fix. (once you find them)


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> I have seen foreign objects like a small round piece of plastic off of a flapper fall down the flush valve and end up at the bottom jet in the throat of the trap. Each time you flush it shoves this small piece of plastic up against the outlet of the jet and slows the water from flowing thru the jet at the proper rate. Then the piece of plastic falls back into the inner channel of the bowl until it gets flushed again. I have seen that a handful of times and it takes some patience to get it out. The little quarter size piece of plastic that holds the float onto the chain on a 1.6 gpf flapper similar to the one Gargalexy posted a photo of here is what I'm talking about.


Like Best Darn said, those small piece of plastic work like a flapper inside the bowl, that's why sometimes flushed sometimes not. Try the 5 gallons bucket test.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Impressive trouble shooting.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

BDS is dead on. Those tabs are pretty simple to remove if you have a pair of bent needle nose pliers. I've found that quite a few times. Twice, I have had the plastic nut that holds the trip lever on get down there. Shocked me that it made it that far. Those are a bit mor difficult to remove.


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## double45 (Sep 7, 2013)

Letterrip said:


> BDS is dead on. Those tabs are pretty simple to remove if you have a pair of bent needle nose pliers. I've found that quite a few times. Twice, I have had the plastic nut that holds the trip lever on get down there. Shocked me that it made it that far. Those are a bit mor difficult to remove.


Excellent troubleshooting tips guys I appreciate it. Going back to look at the toilet this weekend I'll let you know how I make out. Hopefully this is the issue it sounds like it definitely could be.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

BDS has you pretty well dialed in...

2 things I would add is make sure the tank is refilling completely to the line or, 5/8' below the top of the overflow tube...

The other thing and this is a big one...
If they are using that Smurf Blue Water Crap that sits in the bottom of the tank get it all out of there and then hope you can get it out of the internal water passages of the toilet...


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Redwood said:


> BDS has you pretty well dialed in...
> 
> 2 things I would add is make sure the tank is refilling completely to the line or, 5/8' below the top of the overflow tube...
> 
> ...


Thanks, Red. I have seen that, too. I completely forgot about that possibility. I had that once on a fairly new toilet and was able to get it out w/ a wire coat hanger. It clogged up the rim jets. Those things are the worst for a toilet and a homeowner and are great for our biz.


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

Don't try to play Super Plumber and try to figure out everything that is broken. Sell them a new toilet and get yourself a happy customer who won't be scared that his/her turds won't flush.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

Cajunhiker said:


> Don't try to play Super Plumber and try to figure out everything that is broken. Sell them a new toilet and get yourself a happy customer who won't be scared that his/her turds won't flush.


First part of being a repair plumber is being sure that it's the toilet that is actually broken. The methods described will confirm that the problem is located in the toilet (water transfer problem) and not the fixture branch. I prefer to be a repair plumber, not just a replace and hope plumber.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Letterrip said:


> First part of being a repair plumber is being sure that it's the toilet that is actually broken. The methods described will confirm that the problem is located in the toilet (water transfer problem) and not the fixture branch. I prefer to be a repair plumber, not just a replace and hope plumber.


*Zackly!*

I get just under $200 for augering a toilet...
There is a reason why I do...

I can't think of ever spending more than 30 minutes ensuring that a poor flushing toilet was flushing great when I left...

I've replaced a few older ones as well that were too far gone and not worth working with or, they were those crap toilets from the 1st generation of 1.6 gpf toilets...

But a toilet less than 5 years old shouldn't be one of them...


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

Granted, sounds like the tank isn't filling to the correct level, based on his description. Replace or adjust the fill valve, and flapper while you are at it. Or there is a partial blockage in the integral trap of the toilet that a simple augering would take care of the problem. Jets clogged on 5year old toilet. Doubtful. Other than this troubleshooting checklist , quit messing around and give the customer piece of mind with a new decent reliable toilet that works. Then the customer will really think you are a super plumber instead of thinking you don't know what you are doing when said customer has to call you back a week later cause the same toilet is not working, again.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Letterrip said:


> First part of being a repair plumber is being sure that it's the toilet that is actually broken. The methods described will confirm that the problem is located in the toilet (water transfer problem) and not the fixture branch. I prefer to be a repair plumber, not just a replace and hope plumber.


What he said. ^^^

Had an old Kohler one-piece that stopped up once a week, twice a month, once in three months, then every other day. Customer plunged and it would be fine for a bit. She finally had enough and called us.

After eliminating the fixture through many of the steps described in this thread, we put a camera through the toilet....nothing. It was all clear.

Pulled the toilet and ran the camera through the sweep. Found a piece of the wood shake roof replacement from 6 months earlier, lodged in the san-tee.

All while the customer was persistently requesting a new toilet so she would not have the problem anymore.


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## KoleckeINC (Oct 22, 2011)

Make sure flapper stays up until all water is out of the tank, check for blue sludge stuck in rim maybe with a kinetic water ram. Make sure refill tube is where it's sposed to be. Use metal hanger to poke out jets and siphon in bottom of trap. Could just be a backed up sewer too. Good luck


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Cajunhiker said:


> Granted, sounds like the tank isn't filling to the correct level, based on his description. Replace or adjust the fill valve, and flapper while you are at it. Or there is a partial blockage in the integral trap of the toilet that a simple augering would take care of the problem. Jets clogged on 5year old toilet. Doubtful. Other than this troubleshooting checklist , quit messing around and give the customer piece of mind with a new decent reliable toilet that works. Then the customer will really think you are a super plumber instead of thinking you don't know what you are doing when said customer has to call you back a week later cause the same toilet is not working, again.



I dont think you've read the initial post where he said he already augered it 5 times. He is also an apprentice and needs to learn diagnostics. Anyone can tell someone they need a new toilet.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> I dont think you've read the initial post where he said he already augered it 5 times. *He is also an apprentice and needs to learn diagnostics. Anyone can tell someone they need a new toilet.*












Exactly. We want a plumber who can accurately diagnose and repair the problem. Not just a parts-changer.


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

Call me Anyone. Our job is to service customers, not our ego. The customer wants a working toilet. Agreed the apprentice needs to go thru the troubleshooting list. And I'm guessing he figured out the tank wasn't filling properly. But, to return to the house till he figures it out? Let him practice till he gets it right at your house, not my customer's house. If for any reason it can't be fixed, then replace it with a better toilet. Simple. #superplumberscanfixanything #cantbebeat #knowitall #keepreturningtillitsfixed #nevergiveup #customerdoesntmind #nosuchthingasalemon #whybuyanewtruck #keepfixingmyoldtruck #carryonwiththecritiques


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Cajunhiker said:


> Call me Anyone. Our job is to service customers, not our ego. The customer wants a working toilet. Agreed the apprentice needs to go thru the troubleshooting list. And I'm guessing he figured out the tank wasn't filling properly. But, to return to the house till he figures it out? Let him practice till he gets it right at your house, not my customer's house. If for any reason it can't be fixed, then replace it with a better toilet. Simple. #superplumberscanfixanything #cantbebeat #knowitall #keepreturningtillitsfixed #nevergiveup #customerdoesntmind #nosuchthingasalemon #whybuyanewtruck #keepfixingmyoldtruck #carryonwiththecritiques


What's all that weird stuff with the "#" symbol at the end of your comment?


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

How is it servicing your ego to diagnose and issue? I thought our job was to diagnose the problem not throw parts at something.


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## Cajunhiker (Dec 14, 2009)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> What's all that weird stuff with the "#" symbol at the end of your comment?


#sarcasm

I'm all for diagnosing and making a repair. I'm just making fun of super plumbers who would rather work on a problem till the cows come home rather than admit defeat and realize not every problem is worth fighting with, especially while a customer is patiently waiting (or maybe not so patiently). If you can't fix whatever it is, get the customer a new whatever it is, make your customer happy, make some money instead of losing money, go home and be happy.

You have the last word, what say you? (In other words, this thread is tired, carry on as your heart desires)


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Cajunhiker said:


> #sarcasm
> 
> I'm all for diagnosing and making a repair. I'm just making fun of super plumbers who would rather work on a problem till the cows come home rather than admit defeat and realize not every problem is worth fighting with, especially while a customer is patiently waiting (or maybe not so patiently). If you can't fix whatever it is, get the customer a new whatever it is, make your customer happy, make some money instead of losing money, go home and be happy.
> 
> You have the last word, what say you? (In other words, this thread is tired, carry on as your heart desires)


I'm not looking to have the last word. I prefer civil discussions. I did pick up on the sarcasm and was just playing ignorant about hash tags. 

Anyhow, I completely agree that its unprofessional to spend a couple days practicing on a toilet while a customer probably IS impatiently waiting but thats a management issue and not his fault. An apprentice that green shouldn't be running calls solo for these reasons and should have called for back up but again, thats not what he was asking about. And you never suggested that. All that is beside the point because he was trying his best to fix it and wanted to properly diagnose it first and came here for suggestions. Had I been his boss I would have dealt with it differently but im not and when a man is trying to learn a trade and comes here for good honest answers or solutions I think telling him to just throw in a new toilet is doing him and our trade a disservice because too many plumbers are parts changers as it is instead of actual being diagnosing PLUMBERS. I get where you are coming from but don't you at least think he should try to learn WHY it was failing? Would you honestly train your apprentice in the way you suggested by just throwing in a replacement toilet especially since its only 5 years old without knowing why its problematic, assuming you did exactly as he did? I have seen your work and you clearly know the right way to do things. Don't you want those you train to be just as knowledgeable? I know you said you agree with the troubleshooting but not until your second to last post. I just think you were being a little harsh initially is all and not recalling your early days as an apprentice and learning about all the weird things a toilet can do and the mistakes you made.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Cajunhiker said:


> Don't try to play Super Plumber and try to figure out everything that is broken. Sell them a new toilet and get yourself a happy customer who won't be scared that his/her turds won't flush.


In case you're wondering this is the part I take issue with. You discounted all of our suggestions and told him to not worry about diagnosing it properly.


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

Had a service call today because most of the time in this toilet the water keep running. Replaced trip lever (was bad) and found this float inside flush valve when I went to replace the flapper.


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