# tankless heaters



## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

OK, this will be the first one for me. I dont know what brand it is, I have not been to the house to see it yet, nor have I talked to the HO. I have to do this one on Monday morning. All I know its gas fired. I never installed one and want to get some heads up on them. I am not worried, after all, its just plumbing! I will snap a few pix when I am done.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Good luck with that bill. Its not rocket science, and were not building an airplane. The main issue is the gas. Make sure that the meter he has is big enough for the TOTAL of all appliances PLUS the tankless. Other than that, it should be a piece of cake.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Well, it will be an experience! Sight unseen, no details on the home, the size of the heater, the location, the venting req's...I gotta say, you don't make it easy on yourself!!

Here is really the best tip I can give you:
Doing good plumbing. Good plumbers have good installs. Make good choices and bring all the tools you have!! Also, read your install manual. They make it pretty idiot proof these days given all the hacks that are putting these things in. 

While you have NO control over what size gas meter is there, you can tell your client to call their gas co and request a load survey. 

Note, I have very rarely seen a home that the gas piping was oversized for an additional 200K btu appliance. Plan on a dedicated line...NG or LP. Size the pipe for a 2" pressure drop if static is around 8" of WC.
I don't like seeing anything lower than 2-2.5" of drop.

as some may think these are a piece of cake, those are the installs I get called out to and find heaters out of warranty - damage to the heaters - and really poor performance. Gas the unit correctly. No flex lines...hard pipe it, with ISOlation valves if able. If not, at least shutoff ball valves on both the hot and cold lines at the heater. Use full port gas valve and no flex gas supply lines. Yes..yes..I know what the tag on them says, but what that doesn't tell you is the massive pressure drop is when you turn and bent those flex lines. Hard pipe it, especially if your are getting close to the minimums for gas req's.

Maintain your distance to combustables on venting. Angle your longer vent runs so the condensate falls away from the heater. If verticle, you must use a condensate tee for vertivle runs longer than 3 feet. This is paramount in warranty integrity. I call HO's out on them all the time and charge them 600 to change out the heat exchanger because the corrosion from all the moisture falling back down. No manu's will warranty that. Drip tee is a 25 dollar part. 

If there is a recirc system, let me know and I can walk you through it, to a point.

Good plumbing makes good tankless installs. My first 20 or so took me a long time to complete each one. I was wipped out at the end of the day. now, I work at about 3/4 speed and am home by 5 (usually)!!

While it may be tempting to make it picture perfect with fantastic copper work and all this and that, get the job done first. You have been in this biz long enough to look at a situation and have an idea on how much effort things will take. Just know the venting can be tricky. I always bring more pieces than I really need...just because I have dome enough of these to know better.

Do yourself a favor and see if you can get the make / mdl of the unit so you can download the manual. That would really help IMHO!!
Keep us posted


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Good luck with that bill. Its not rocket science, and were not building an airplane. The main issue is the gas. Make sure that the meter he has is big enough for the TOTAL of all appliances PLUS the tankless. Other than that, it should be a piece of cake.


So get this,
I am at a job yesterday and I am reinstalling a unit that was butchered. I tell my client about the need for a new dedicated gas line...blah..blah..I get the job and am filling out paperwork. I look next door see the gas co is there. So I tell the HO to go see if he will do a survey and replace the meter. This twat tells my HO that new meters aren't needed and that even though it says (in my case) 250 CFH it can do up to 700. I looked at this guy like WTF? I just laughed and told him...what ever you say pal. I did ask if he was a plumber, he gave me a dirty look. Can't fix stupid. My HO already scheduled a survey. Point is, there are idiots all over the place, it's your job to be smarter and know your shyit:thumbsup:


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Sorry, a few more details, i was buisy and forgot to say it

We are replacing an existing gas WH with the tankless unit, so I assume the gas should be ok then, we dont need to run any lines.


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## gladerunner (Jan 24, 2009)

existing hwh is probably 40k btu, the tankless with modulating gas valves that iv'e run across are 150k btu's. why change to tankless? there was a thread on here somewhere a little while ago about the pro's and con's of tankless vs conventional, 
Don't drink the cool-aid, conventional is the way to go.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Tankless said:


> So get this,
> I am at a job yesterday and I am reinstalling a unit that was butchered. I tell my client about the need for a new dedicated gas line...blah..blah..I get the job and am filling out paperwork. I look next door see the gas co is there. So I tell the HO to go see if he will do a survey and replace the meter. This twat tells my HO that new meters aren't needed and that even though it says (in my case) 250 CFH it can do up to 700. I looked at this guy like WTF? I just laughed and told him...what ever you say pal. I did ask if he was a plumber, he gave me a dirty look. Can't fix stupid. My HO already scheduled a survey. Point is, there are idiots all over the place, it's your job to be smarter and know your shyit:thumbsup:


I feel your pain, here in tally, they are so slow with the work right now, the inspectors that it, they are going around checking peoples gas meters for proper sizes. Did a r-63 the other day, They had to go from a .5lb meter to a 2lb meter. Called the city, they installed the new meter, I installed my pressure regulator, was a sweet quick 3 hr install. 

BTW tankless, Im taking the level 3 repair class next month, looking foward to it. According to the rinnai rep, all those R-85's that were installed long ago that they no longer make, are gonna start going bad and needing repairs pretty soon. CHA CHING!!!!!!!!!


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> I feel your pain, here in tally, they are so slow with the work right now, the inspectors that it, they are going around checking peoples gas meters for proper sizes. Did a r-63 the other day, They had to go from a .5lb meter to a 2lb meter. Called the city, they installed the new meter, I installed my pressure regulator, was a sweet quick 3 hr install.
> 
> BTW tankless, Im taking the level 3 repair class next month, looking foward to it. According to the rinnai rep, all those R-85's that were installed long ago that they no longer make, are gonna start going bad and needing repairs pretty soon. CHA CHING!!!!!!!!!


Right, when they were turned sideways during shipping...I heard about that mess. Make yo bank


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

gladerunner said:


> existing hwh is probably 40k btu, the tankless with modulating gas valves that iv'e run across are 150k btu's. why change to tankless? there was a thread on here somewhere a little while ago about the pro's and con's of tankless vs conventional,
> Don't drink the cool-aid, conventional is the way to go.


Yes, and a 67 Camaro gets the same fuel milage as a Honds Accord. I love guys like you, I make a ton of money off ya!!


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Bill said:


> Sorry, a few more details, i was buisy and forgot to say it
> 
> We are replacing an existing gas WH with the tankless unit, so I assume the gas should be ok then, we dont need to run any lines.


Now Bill,

If you're asking that, that means you're not keeping up on all the tankless threads over the past few years :laughing:.

Let me re-quote myself


> Note, I have very rarely seen a home that the gas piping was oversized for an additional 200K btu appliance. Plan on a dedicated line...NG or LP. Size the pipe for a 2" pressure drop if static is around 8" of WC.
> I don't like seeing anything lower than 2-2.5" of drop.


THe piping is almost always not even clost to "properly" handle the addtl load of the tankless. The gassing is sized so that ALL the gas appliances are running at 100% and the distribution lines and meter can deliver what the customer is buying. Tapping into the nearest 3/4" line is not a solution to the gas requirements. 

The piping to the tanked heater is usually good for about 60k btu's with the 1/2" stub out. Just up the wall to the nearest 3/4" branch will prolly deliver the 200k but's for your unit, but not when someone turnes on the FAU or whatever. If you just tap the line that is already there, it won't be too long before someone like me gets the call, than I am going to charge the beJesus out of your client to redo the installation. Gassing is key. Gassing is also the main reasong ppl do not go with tankless. It is typically the most expensive aspect of the job. Hell, I ran a little 36', 1" gas line yesterday, took me almost half the day to get it presurized and strapped. AND it was an easy install. It may help to go reading back through to some of the older posts on them. There is alot of info on a lot of different aspects of the installations. Same on CT. I posted practially a novel a while ago...same stuff still applies.


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## gladerunner (Jan 24, 2009)

Tankless said:


> Yes, and a 67 Camaro gets the same fuel milage as a Honds Accord. I love guys like you, I make a ton of money off ya!!


In my neck of the wood's we have house's with 2 and some time's even 3 bathroom's, and on top of all that we even have some families who acutually shower more than once a week and sometimes belive it or not we get a really radical family who sometimes try's to do it at the same time. Oh did I mention we sometimes get 45 degree supply water.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

gladerunner said:


> In my neck of the wood's we have house's with 2 and some time's even 3 bathroom's, and on top of all that we even have some families who acutually shower more than once a week and sometimes belive it or not we get a really radical family who sometimes try's to do it at the same time. Oh did I mention we sometimes get 45 degree supply water.


Then I would sell them a R-94, the pressure difference would be no different. BUT, I tell you what would be different, THEY WOULD HAVE PLENTY OF HOT WATER!!!!


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Ignorance is bliss for some people. You keep being right there runner boy.


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## gladerunner (Jan 24, 2009)

Maybe in cal and florida they might be okay, but here in the northeast we factor on 100 degree rise, your r-94 can supply me 3.3 gpm. thats not enough. I don't know your pricing but I can put in a 50 gallon bradford for 800. If your getting I don't know maybe 2k for your unit installed, then according to rannai's own web site it would take 19.5 years to break even. Thats assuming that there is absolutly no other repairs in that time.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Well Glade runner, youve done your homework, and if that is the tempature rise that your using, then a Rinnai is problably not the best option.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

gladerunner said:


> Maybe in cal and florida they might be okay, but here in the northeast we factor on 100 degree rise, your r-94 can supply me 3.3 gpm. thats not enough. I don't know your pricing but I can put in a 50 gallon bradford for 800. If your getting I don't know maybe 2k for your unit installed, then according to rannai's own web site it would take 19.5 years to break even. Thats assuming that there is absolutly no other repairs in that time.


 All I can say is :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:  :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:!!!


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Oh yes, let me also add, you're WRONG, WRONG, WRONG but as Tankless already said, that's ok, keep being wrong because guys like you make me a lot of money.


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## WestCoastPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Bill said:


> OK, this will be the first one for me. I dont know what brand it is, I have not been to the house to see it yet, nor have I talked to the HO. I have to do this one on Monday morning. All I know its gas fired. I never installed one and want to get some heads up on them. I am not worried, after all, its just plumbing! I will snap a few pix when I am done.


Bill, no big deal, sure this was mentioned, but it must be said again,

SIZE THE GAS PROPERLY

Install the hot and cold service kit, make sure you install the remote, make sure the gas is properly sized, if you use csst, make sure you size it to csst standards, make sure your clearances are correct, and call me if you have a question. Hard pipe everything, propress if you have, but if not, regular hard pipe is great, do not FLEX THE THING IN!


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## KratzerPlumbing (Feb 23, 2009)

Hey Tankless I have been installing these all outdoors and as close to the meter as possible. The Takagis flat out state that it must have a seperate gas line from the meter. Are you installing a lot of these indoors down south? Also Glade runner how well does your 50 fill a Jacuzzi tub or a deep Kohler tub. Every single one of these that I have installed is because the H/O got tired of having luke warm water in their bath tub


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

KratzerPlumbing said:


> Hey Tankless I have been installing these all outdoors and as close to the meter as possible. The Takagis flat out state that it must have a seperate gas line from the meter. Are you installing a lot of these indoors down south? Also Glade runner how well does your 50 fill a Jacuzzi tub or a deep Kohler tub. Every single one of these that I have installed is because the H/O got tired of having luke warm water in their bath tub


I always try to put mine as close to the gas meter as possible. Usually around here most meters have a 1" drip leg. I tee off of that. BTW the city of tallahassee offers a $675 dollar rebate to any customer who buys a tankless water heater, or replaces there old regular gas water heater with a new efficient one. And yes, rinnai are selling like hot cakes around here.


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## gladerunner (Jan 24, 2009)

[/quote]Glade runner how well does your 50 fill a Jacuzzi tub or a deep Kohler tub. Every single one of these that I have installed is because the H/O got tired of having luke warm water in their bath tub[/quote]

If I had an install with large jacuzzi I would kick it up to a 65k burner (206 gallon first hour delivery). Again you guy's in warm climate's can use these thing's, but they aren't the best choice here as far as i'm concerned. (And my first reply to this thread was to bill, who I think is in a colder climate). I also always hear the argument that the tank heater is setting there running all day long while the ho is at work. The diffrential in the thermastat is approx. 20 degrees. The tank will lose approx. 1 degree per hr when sitting static. That means the burner will fire once every 20 hr's to maintain temp when not in use for a 20 degree temp rise,( I don't know maybe 5 min)? Also (and I know this is only here). Our gas supplier only gives us 4-6" wc at meter. So we see a lot of tankless unit's that keep dropping out on low pressure, Even when piped properly.
Consumer Reports - Tankless Heaters


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

I am enjoying and learning much from this thread . So far ,,, all good points !

Cal


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## gladerunner (Jan 24, 2009)

Cal said:


> I am enjoying and learning much from this thread . So far ,,, all good points !
> 
> Cal


 even the point when everybody call's me a dolt?


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

NO ,,, You have good points ! It is hard to get these things working great in a very cold environment .

I have installed several and am STILL not sold totally on them .

Cal


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## gladerunner (Jan 24, 2009)

I'm also a big fan of keeping thing's simple. I don't do alot of service work, but when I do get a call back on a tank installation 99% of the time it's a bad thermocouple. Ever since NAFTA it seems like we get more and more bad thermocouple's (failure 1-2 yrs). also here in the city we have mostly attached row homes with really no way to direct vent from basement.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

I too put them close to the meter, BUT don't blow the tolerances. I see SO MANY installs where units are right on top of the meter. Just read the manual people. It tells you exactly how to install these. What was this post originally about, I forgot....Oh yeah...Bill! you still here bud?:laughing:


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## WestCoastPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I love tankless. I went last night on an estimate, I am bidding against a guy that is talking crap about tankless, more then likely because he didn't install it right or has even seen one installed correctly.

The customer wants to move the water heater from inside, to outside, with windows and propertly lines, there is only one spot, close to the meter, perfect place, so 50 gallon bradford white, shed, dual wall and single wall venting, still have to run gas line and water lines whether you install a tank or a tankless. with tankless, 1 unit, no vent, install kit, same copper for tank or tankless, gas, 1/2 to water heater, 3/4 to tankless, not a big deal.

Why not go tankless and get a rebate? more material is required for the tank type, plus a crappy shed, update and go tankless.

So, I will give him an estimate for both, let him choose, since his first bidder trashed tankless so bad. Customer could be easily miss informed.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

From what I have heard and read about tankless, I have come to the following conclusion. If you live in a warm or moderately warm climate and space is at a premium, install a tankless. If you live in a cold or moderately cold climate with a basement, your best overall value would be a waterheater. They both have their place. Everything in plumbing is situational.


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