# according to my Rheem salesman



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

on a topic of water heaters....

I found out last week that starting sometime in 
2015 the government is going to kill off a number
of water heaters and they will not be available any more...
according to my Rheem salesman

normal 75 gallon gas heaters will be dis-continued and have to be replaced with a 75 power vent
(or you will have to install 2 40s I guess)

normal 80 gallon electrics will not be available any longer and I suppose will have to be replaced with
a hybred?? 
 ( or 2 40 gal electrics if you have the room)

this new energy mandate from the lofty towers 
will probably put a crimp in a number folks lives


has anyone heard tell of this new mandate??


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Same news coming from BWC reps.

They say eventually the standing pilot will be a thing of the past. 110v will then be required to get HW.


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

Pretty soon customers will need a small loan for a hwh. 

How many of you are leasing water heaters?


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

We do that already here in Texas well in the residential side of it. Now does this include commercial install too? The only time I ever seen water heater that big been in commercial applications.


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## hawkeye77 (Feb 20, 2009)

Was reading somewhere on here Friday morning someone had posted an article from Bradford white about the changes coming in 2015 I found it interesting. I don't remember what thread that was in?


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

I have worked in many homes having 75 or 100 gal residential water heaters
also a couple that had commc, 100 gal. heaters


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

Final Rule.

http://www.bradfordwhite.com/department-energy-doe-final-rule-effective-04162015


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

People in mobile homes are gonna be screwed


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

MTDUNN said:


> People in mobile homes are gonna be screwed


Eternal GU120's all around!


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

plungerboy said:


> Pretty soon customers will need a small loan for a hwh.
> 
> How many of you are leasing water heaters?


I still do not understand how renting/leasing heaters works. Can someone with experience with this explain the process?


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

I beleive all tank water heaters will need to be 67.5% efficient in 2015


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*maybe I should stock up*

Maybe I should stock up on heaters before the cut off date..



back in 2003 , when the new FVIR heaters came out I ordered
a semi load of the older model Rheem water heaters to be delivered to my shop.... We got 75 40 gallon gas and 75 50 gallon gas heaters.... we had water heaters stacked to the ceilings in both front and back......:laughing::laughing:

I saved about 75 bucks per heater over the new style and did not have to worry about being in the middle of a Fvir mess with either 
Rheem or bradfords new models....


I ended up buying another 50 bradfords that were somehow overlooked at our supply house and another 40 Rheem units that another place had.....


We finally ran out of the older models sometime in late 2004
but I came out smelling like a rose $$$$ becasue I could sell the older model for what everyone was asking for the newer ones....:thumbup:




If you had the room, and did not mind installing 75 gallon heaters,
it would probably be wise to get hold of maybe 6 -- 75 gallon heaters and just hold onto them for the day when someone is begging for one of them.....


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

This new mandate has me looking at tankless and eternals. I'm betting these new tank type heaters are going to go up 25-50% in cost. Installation cost will go up to, making tankless an affordable option finally


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Will said:


> I beleive all tank water heaters will need to be 67.5% efficient in 2015


 


according to the link it only applies to larger than 55 gallons
and that is gonna suck ba--s someday...

especially if you have to warranty out a leaking 75 gallon gas heater that is 5 1/2 years old....



Q: How will gas water heaters be affected? 
A: Gas models may require additional insulation, incorporate newer flue baffling technologies (including flue dampers), incorporate electronic ignition in lieu of the standing pilot, or any combination of these. One likely impact will be an increase in the overall product size, especially in diameter. For gas-fired products, over 55 gallons (< 75,000 BTU/Hr.), fully condensing combustion technology will likely be required, based on currently available technologies that are capable of meeting the new requirements. This will also mean that line voltage will have to be available, as well as a means for condensate disposal.


Q: How will electric water heaters be affected? 
A: Electric water heaters will likely require more insulation. This will increase the diameter and/or height of the water heater. Additional insulation may be required for piping and fittings such as drain and T&P valves. Electric water heaters over 55 gallons (< 12 kW input) will likely utilize integrated heat pumps to meet the new EF requirements, based on currently available technology.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

Master Mark said:


> according to the link it only applies to larger than 55 gallons
> and that is gonna suck ba--s someday...
> 
> especially if you have to warranty out a leaking 75 gallon gas heater that is 5 1/2 years old....
> ...


Good point about the warranty situation.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Master Mark said:


> according to the link it only applies to larger than 55 gallons
> and that is gonna suck ba--s someday...
> 
> especially if you have to warranty out a leaking 75 gallon gas heater that is 5 1/2 years old....
> ...


Wouldn't the warranty issue be on the manufacturer not the plumber?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

justme said:


> Wouldn't the warranty issue be on the manufacturer not the plumber?


 
If you installed the 75 gallon heater, lets say this fall
and the heater starts to leak 5 1/2 years from then,
you are probably going to be feeling obligated to do something for your customer...... 

the consumer will probably be the one getting screwed, but I am sure it will also get you a bad review on Google or Angies list if you dont pony up and help them out of that warranty jam ...


I dont sell a lot of 75s but this is gonnna happen to a bunch of folks across the usa down the road....


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

From A.O. Smith: All warranties still in effect. Rather than getting a free replacement tank, h.o. Will receive a credit toward the more expensive replacement tank. Credit to be equal to the model being replaced. 

Since notifying our customers of this change almost a year ago, our customers have been changing out their 80's, rather than choosing to repair (t-stats, elements) when the water heater is already out of warranty.


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## Keefer w (Jan 26, 2012)

When the rule goes into effect, manufacturers will no longer be able to produce a heater that does not fit the new energy factor. There is no deadline for when wholesalers have to stop selling heaters that don't meet criteria. It's not gonna be a game changer right off. And maybe will get rid of some hacks.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Keefer w said:


> When the rule goes into effect, manufacturers will no longer be able to produce a heater that does not fit the new energy factor. There is no deadline for when wholesalers have to stop selling heaters that don't meet criteria. It's not gonna be a game changer right off. And maybe will get rid of some hacks.


I agree with you. It won't be a game changer right off, but it will give an edge to those who prepare ahead of schedule before the competition catches up. 

I also think it will definitely discourage hacks.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Phat Cat said:


> I agree with you. It won't be a game changer right off, but it will give an edge to those who prepare ahead of schedule before the competition catches up.
> 
> I also think it will definitely discourage hacks.


When this goes into effect is when you will find out about who's a real plumber and who isn't. By this I mean using a whole house mixing valve at the water heater 

1. Turn the water heater to 160 degrees or higher.
2. Install mixing valve set temp to 125

If done properly a 50 gallon heater(especially a gas) can put out more hot water than a 80 gallon set at 125. This is what is going set plumbers apart from great plumbers that utilize this type of setup.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

justme said:


> When this goes into effect is when you will find out about who's a real plumber and who isn't. By this I mean using a whole house mixing valve at the water heater
> 
> 1. Turn the water heater to 160 degrees or higher.
> 2. Install mixing valve set temp to 125
> ...


It's also going to land some Handihacks in deep trouble when they try to duplicate it and don't quite get it right...:laughing:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

justme said:


> When this goes into effect is when you will find out about who's a real plumber and who isn't. By this I mean using a whole house mixing valve at the water heater
> 
> 1. Turn the water heater to 160 degrees or higher.
> 2. Install mixing valve set temp to 125
> ...


 

I suppose that is a good idea in an extreme pinch
except the simmons valves cost close to a grand....alone... (lead free)

I am not sure but wouldent installing a mixing valve in a residential home mess up the Delta and other brands of pressure balanced tub and shower valves??? 

arent they both pressure and temterature sensitive??


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## KoleckeINC (Oct 22, 2011)

Isn't setting a WH to 160 going to cause a premature failure?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> ...arent they both pressure and temterature sensitive??


Delta has a seldom purchased series called "Temp-Assure". They are pressure balanced and are adjusted based on temperature. Their Monitor series (99%) is adjusted by adjusting the volume of input from the hot and cold feeds, regardless of actual temperature.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> according to the link it only applies to larger than 55 gallons
> and that is gonna suck ba--s someday...
> 
> especially if you have to warranty out a leaking 75 gallon gas heater that is 5 1/2 years old....
> ...



According to Bradford White, 20-55 gal will have to meet 67.5 EF and 55-100 will have to meet 80 EF


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I am sure there will be some people that try to buy up a supply of the old water heaters just before the change. I won't be one of them. I will shamelessly and apologetically bestow the cost burden on the customer. 

They can try to make the plumber the bad guy if they want but I refuse to play. I will be most happy to provide the phone number to BWC and the EPA.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

Master Mark said:


> I suppose that is a good idea in an extreme pinch
> except the simmons valves cost close to a grand....alone... (lead free)
> 
> I am not sure but wouldent installing a mixing valve in a residential home mess up the Delta and other brands of pressure balanced tub and shower valves???
> ...


How would a thermostatic mixing valve effect a pressure balanced shower valve? It balances pressure on both sides. I'm not following your logic.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> I am sure there will be some people that try to buy up a supply of the old water heaters just before the change. I won't be one of them. I will shamelessly and apologetically bestow the cost burden on the customer.
> 
> They can try to make the plumber the bad guy if they want but I refuse to play. I will be most happy to provide the phone number to BWC and the EPA.


Epa?? Its the DOE desk engineering that been pushing the pencils..


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> I suppose that is a good idea in an extreme pinch
> except the simmons valves cost close to a grand....alone... (lead free)
> 
> I am not sure but wouldent installing a mixing valve in a residential home mess up the Delta and other brands of pressure balanced tub and shower valves???
> ...


Huh?? Doesn't make sense... however, install MOENTROL and your problems solved..


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

love2surf927 said:


> How would a thermostatic mixing valve effect a pressure balanced shower valve? It balances pressure on both sides. I'm not following your logic.


 

who told you that I ever thought logically???


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Interesting Tangent the thread took after Post #21...
Looks like I was spot on with my comment about running a water heater at 160ºF becoming a huge liability for the Handyhacks that don't know what it entails... :laughing:

A large number of our seasoned plumbers here made the wrong turn as well...:laughing:

While JustMe was talking about the increased storage capacity in a downsized tank with a tempering valve for anti-scald protection, the day is coming when temperatures will be raised for biological protection...

As much as you like a certain tub/shower valve it will not offer the anti-scald protection needed in the kitchen and lav sinks where instantaneous scalding will occur at that elevated water heater temperature...


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Redwood said:


> Interesting Tangent the thread took after Post #21... Looks like I was spot on with my comment about running a water heater at 160ºF becoming a huge liability for the Handyhacks that don't know what it entails... :laughing: A large number of our seasoned plumbers here made the wrong turn as well...:laughing: While JustMe was talking about the increased storage capacity in a downsized tank with a tempering valve for anti-scald protection, the day is coming when temperatures will be raised for biological protection... As much as you like a certain tub/shower valve it will not offer the anti-scald protection needed in the kitchen and lav sinks where instantaneous scalding will occur at that elevated water heater temperature...



I understand your logic here. If this does become a standard application, it won't be long before the pencil pushers have the faucet companies engineer anti scald faucets for all fixtures. Then make it code.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

MTDUNN said:


> I understand your logic here. If this does become a standard application, it won't be long before the pencil pushers have the faucet companies engineer anti scald faucets for all fixtures. Then make it code.


I was curious where he was going with this, haha what else is new I'm a little slow on the uptake.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

From what I have read plumbers will have to take into account make up air and room size for the energy efficient heaters. Turning the stat up and installing a tempering valve at the heater is not sufficient or efficient.


Tempering valves will have stipulations in all likelihood will also have major changes to prevent the many failures of the existing valves today. A small piece of scale can off set the temperature and make the tempering valve irrelevant and useless.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Richard Hilliard said:


> From what I have read plumbers will have to take into account make up air and room size for the energy efficient heaters. Turning the stat up and installing a tempering valve at the heater is not sufficient or efficient.
> 
> 
> Tempering valves will have stipulations in all likelihood will also have major changes to prevent the many failures of the existing valves today. A small piece of scale can off set the temperature and make the tempering valve irrelevant and useless.


 
people will figure out a way to get around this .....


I doubt that most would use a commercial grade simmons tempering valve worth 700 bucks and probably just install one of those "el-cheapo " watts tempering -- mixing valves you see occasionally in a low end beauty salon....


it will work for a while ...and in a few years they will probably mandate that all faucets have a tempering system built into
 them.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

We use bradley's for the most part and install strainers to catch the trash and if you get the heater going to those temperatures it would be wise to install a tempering valve at the kitchen , shower( you residential guys probably know of a brand that has this built in) lavatories and laundry sinks. As for the failure rate of water heaters turned up this high, I see them all day everyday and they are working just fine, just need to upgrade to a glass lined tank. The time is coming when the handi-hack won't be taking all you residential guys work.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Master Mark said:


> people will figure out a way to get around this .....
> 
> 
> I doubt that most would use a commercial grade simmons tempering valve worth 700 bucks and probably just install one of those "el-cheapo " watts tempering -- mixing valves you see occasionally in a low end beauty salon....
> ...



For a 20 gpm bradley you're looking at somewhere around 350, at least around here.Figure that would be plenty for the average household.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Richard Hilliard said:


> From what I have read plumbers will have to take into account make up air and room size for the energy efficient heaters. Turning the stat up and installing a tempering valve at the heater is not sufficient or efficient.


 If plumbers would install the new heaters which brings in the make up air from outside, no need to size the room other than to have the required clearances on the sides of the heater.




Richard Hilliard said:


> Tempering valves will have stipulations in all likelihood will also have major changes to prevent the many failures of the existing valves today. A small piece of scale can off set the temperature and make the tempering valve irrelevant and useless.


 This is where the service plumber comes in to save the day.


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

Delta has that kitchen faucet that will limit the handle on hot side. It has a switch or something under the handle. I saw one a few years ago and last week. It only let's the handle move towards the hot a little.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

The AO Smith Effex water heater is the only standard atmospheric type water heater that meets the energy facto requirements. Otherwise you will need a power vent or tankless water heater.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

plumberkc said:


> The AO Smith Effex water heater is the only standard atmospheric type water heater that meets the energy facto requirements. Otherwise you will need a power vent or tankless water heater.


Not exactly. Anything over 55 gallons will be required to be a power vent. The point Justme is making is that you can install a smaller atmospheric vent heater (under 55) and use a tempering valve(s) to increase the volume of hot water as a work around. The heaters under 55 gallons (gas fired) will mostly just have more insulation. Energy factor above 65% I believe for under 55 which is not that much of a jump for what is currently available. This will mostly effect heaters over 55 gallons and installs in confined spaces.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

plumberkc said:


> The AO Smith Effex water heater is the only standard atmospheric type water heater that meets the energy facto requirements. Otherwise you will need a power vent or tankless water heater.


Is that AO Smith out allready? You install them?


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Will said:


> This new mandate has me looking at tankless and eternals. I'm betting these new tank type heaters are going to go up 25-50% in cost. Installation cost will go up to, making tankless an affordable option finally


 Hang in there buddy ,,, eternal is coming out in June with a real game changer ( GU 125 & GU 165 ) that are tanked , small , power vents that blow away even the Vertex ! 

Also , AO has the 50 gal high recovery that will supply like a 75 gal and is cheaper . 

We are going to be ok . Also going to run the hacks out of biz !!


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

love2surf927 said:


> I was curious where he was going with this, haha what else is new I'm a little slow on the uptake.



Me and you both heh


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Cal said:


> Hang in there buddy ,,, eternal is coming out in June with a real game changer ( GU 125 & GU 165 ) that are tanked , small , power vents that blow away even the Vertex ! Also , AO has the 50 gal high recovery that will supply like a 75 gal and is cheaper . We are going to be ok . Also going to run the hacks out of biz !!


Your the second to say that about a new eternal. Is is a completly new design? 

Speaking of the vertex, you put any in? I've thought about it on few installs, but the units us over 2000 alone...


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Will said:


> Your the second to say that about a new eternal. Is is a completly new design? Speaking of the vertex, you put any in? I've thought about it on few installs, but the units us over 2000 alone...


 They had some big meeting on the 20th of march. I of course missed it working. 
Got handed a spec sheet from my rep yesterday at the supply house ,then 3-4 other plumbers surrounded me and just raved about this thing! 

Funny thing is , we all agreed, it might make the existing Eternals obsolete !! 
I am looking forward to it !!


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

justme said:


> When this goes into effect is when you will find out about who's a real plumber and who isn't. By this I mean using a whole house mixing valve at the water heater 1. Turn the water heater to 160 degrees or higher. 2. Install mixing valve set temp to 125 If done properly a 50 gallon heater(especially a gas) can put out more hot water than a 80 gallon set at 125. This is what is going set plumbers apart from great plumbers that utilize this type of setup.


Won't be that hard either. In a way, this new mandate can be a blessing for us money wise.


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## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

So who wants to buy truckloads of bootleg Canadian-spec water heaters? I'm gonna need some warehousing .......:whistling2:


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

CaberTosser said:


> So who wants to buy truckloads of bootleg Canadian-spec water heaters? I'm gonna need some warehousing .......:whistling2:


Should be more room in the warehouses... all the orginal 5 gals flushers are gone now....


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## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> Should be more room in the warehouses... all the orginal 5 gals flushers are gone now....


Sometimes though we just wind up getting what you guys get as a byproduct of production efficiencies, rather than our own laws. Other times we're the ones ahead of the curve on a certain code/technology implementation. Canada having about the same population as California we may or may not get specific equipment production runs made for us, depending on the manufacturer.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

CaberTosser said:


> Sometimes though we just wind up getting what you guys get as a byproduct of production effociencies, rather than our own laws. Other times we're the ones ahead of the curve on a certain code/technology implementation. Canada having about the same population as California we may or may not get specific equipment production runs made for us, depending on the manufacturer.


 Tekmar products from Canada are ahead of those USA pencil pushers..


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## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> Tekmar products from Canada are ahead of those USA pencil pushers..


Tekmar is located in Vernon, BC. Its a summer & winter paradise. Tekmar's HQ is on the road leading to a great ski hill (Silver Star) and by summer the Okanagan Lake (84 miles long) and the local vineyards and orchards make for a great place to be. Oh, and Tekmar's controls are nice too 

Vernon is my getaway of choice.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Will said:


> Is that AO Smith out allready? You install them?


We can get them but the price is 3x as much as a regular gas 50 gallon so we don't install many.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

CaberTosser said:


> So who wants to buy truckloads of bootleg Canadian-spec water heaters? I'm gonna need some warehousing .......:whistling2:


I have actually thought about stocking up. Prices are about to hike anyway maybe we should just buy em up now. Bradford White limits the number of water heaters they will sell so better buy em early.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

CaberTosser said:


> Sometimes though we just wind up getting what you guys get as a byproduct of production efficiencies, rather than our own laws. Other times we're the ones ahead of the curve on a certain code/technology implementation. Canada having about the same population as California we may or may not get specific equipment production runs made for us, depending on the manufacturer.


By my math, it will cost you about $500-$800 up front, to save about $25 per year.


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