# Underground PE pipe connections?



## hawkeye77 (Feb 20, 2009)

I dont generally do water service installs mostly just interior water distribution. but i have a customer that want to disconnect an existing well and bring city water into the house. He doesnt want to make a new pentetration into the house he would like to have the existing piping from the well disconnected and then the new pipe connected to that outside the house. Im in Michigan. My question is : Is there any reason i can't use a compression coupling to make this connection. I will check with the inspector but the code book just says an approved fitting. If not a compression coupling is there a better joint to make this work. In my mind the best thing would be to have a solid pipe from the curb box into the house but thats not what the customer wants. Thanks for any advice.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

I use these, work great. They are made for IPS,CTS and the oddball PE sizes.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

hawkeye77 said:


> I dont generally do water service installs mostly just interior water distribution. but i have a customer that want to disconnect an existing well and bring city water into the house. He doesnt want to make a new pentetration into the house* he would like to have the existing piping* *from the well disconnected* and then the new pipe connected to that outside the house. Im in Michigan. My question is : Is there any reason i can't use a compression coupling to make this connection. I will check with the inspector but the code book just says an approved fitting. If not a compression coupling is there a better joint to make this work. In my mind the best thing would be to have a solid pipe from the curb box into the house but thats not what the customer wants. Thanks for any advice.


 






For starters, the well connection cannot be left connected to the potable water system along with the city water service. That constitutes a cross-connection. Regardless whether or not a permit is pulled, the well pipe has to be disconnected and capped.

I would definitely not advise a compression fitting on a pressurized water line.

Is PVC approved for water services in your area? We install schedule 40 PVC all the time for water services here.


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## hawkeye77 (Feb 20, 2009)

PlungerJockey said:


> I use these, work great. They are made for IPS,CTS and the oddball PE sizes.


 plunger jockey are you saying the compression fittings work great or was there something missing from your post?


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## hawkeye77 (Feb 20, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> For starters, the well connection cannot be left connected to the potable water system along with the city water service. That constitutes a cross-connection. Regardless whether or not a permit is pulled, the well pipe has to be disconnected and capped. I would definitely not advise a compression fitting on a pressurized water line. Is PVC approved for water services in your area? We install schedule 40 PVC all the time for water services here.


 yes pvc is approved I am aware off the well needing to be disconnected and it will no longer be connected to the house the issue is the customer not wanting to bring new pipe through the foundation. It may be in the end that he has no choice but I was just inquiring about the potential of cutting the existing pipe and connecting it to the new water service


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

Sorry

These work great

http://www.hardwarestore.com/water-service-pack-joint-union-676872.aspx


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## hawkeye77 (Feb 20, 2009)

Ok thanks I have used those on the incoming side of most water meters where the water service is plastic pipe


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> For starters, the well connection cannot be left connected to the potable water system along with the city water service. That constitutes a cross-connection. Regardless whether or not a permit is pulled, the well pipe has to be disconnected and capped. I would definitely not advise a compression fitting on a pressurized water line. Is PVC approved for water services in your area? We install schedule 40 PVC all the time for water services here.


For seconds, the existing pipe is used to the pressure that the well system provided. Hooking the city pressure can bust something loose


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

hawkeye77 said:


> yes pvc is approved I am aware off the well needing to be disconnected and it will no longer be connected to the house the issue is the customer not wanting to bring new pipe through the foundation. It may be in the end that he has no choice but I was just inquiring about the potential of cutting the existing pipe and connecting it to the new water service


 






So the existing service is black poly? I have run into that on occasion. In those instances, a brass compression fitting was out at the street connection. I misunderstood your post.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

hawkeye77 said:


> yes pvc is approved I am aware off the well needing to be disconnected and it will no longer be connected to the house the issue is the customer not wanting to bring new pipe through the foundation. It may be in the end that he has no choice but I was just inquiring about the potential of cutting the existing pipe and connecting it to the new water service


What Tommy said. Just make sure there is a PRV set at 55 lbs


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## hawkeye77 (Feb 20, 2009)

MTDUNN said:


> For seconds, the existing pipe is used to the pressure that the well system provided. Hooking the city pressure can bust something loose


 the only joints would be the new coupling and the new transition coupling before the new water meter so as long as the pipe can handle the new pressure i don't see a problem there.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

PlungerJockey said:


> Sorry
> 
> These work great
> 
> http://www.hardwarestore.com/water-service-pack-joint-union-676872.aspx


Can those fittings be used on poly pipe? I have used the Mueller brand for underground soft copper. I thought for black poly you had to use the barbed insert type fittings. At least that was how it was done in Montana. Maybe I am missing something here with your situation. 

I don't see any issue with utilizing the existing line if code approved and as previously stated with a PRV if necessary.

Personally, I am no fan of black PE but I know it is very common for well lines. I prefer copper for water services but we don't live in a perfect world.


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## hawkeye77 (Feb 20, 2009)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Can those fittings be used on poly pipe? I have used the Mueller brand for underground soft copper. I thought for black poly you had to use the barbed insert type fittings. At least that was how it was done in Montana. Maybe I am missing something here with your situation. I don't see any issue with utilizing the existing line if code approved and as previously stated with a PRV if necessary. Personally, I am no fan of black PE but I know it is very common for well lines. I prefer copper for water services but we don't live in a perfect world.


the pipe is buried I don't like the thought of burying barbed fittings and hose clamps just seems a much worse than the brass


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

hawkeye77 said:


> the pipe is buried I don't like the thought of burying barbed fittings and hose clamps just seems a much worse than the brass


It's done all the time on PE pipe for wells. We use the stainless barbed and 2 clamps. For your situation perhaps a ford coupling?


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

hawkeye77 said:


> the pipe is buried I don't like the thought of burying barbed fittings and hose clamps just seems a much worse than the brass


I never had an issue with them but I also haven't had to use them too often. I have only used them on repairing existing underground black or blue PE because that was the preferred method when I was doing that kind of work. If they are put together properly than they work fine and will last as long as the pipe. The barbed fitting I was referring to is made of stainless or brass but it seems like you don't like the hose clamp part, and I don't blame you.

Again, I would prefer replacing the PE but you gotta do what you gotta do. My question was whether or not the brass ones that were mentioned previously could be used on PE. I didn't know if they could. If they can then by all means go with the brass compression one. I just haven't ever used them on PE.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

MTDUNN said:


> It's done all the time on PE pipe for wells. We use the stainless barbed and 2 clamps. For your situation perhaps a ford coupling?


Beat me to it. Haha.


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## hawkeye77 (Feb 20, 2009)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> I never had an issue with them but I also haven't had to use them too often. I have only used them on repairing existing underground black or blue PE because that was the preferred method when I was doing that kind of work. If they are put together properly than they work fine and will last as long as the pipe. The barbed fitting I was referring to is made of stainless or brass but it seems like you don't like the hose clamp part, and I don't blame you. Again, I would prefer replacing the PE but you gotta do what you gotta do. My question was whether or not the brass ones that were mentioned previously could be used on PE. I didn't know if they could. If they can then by all means go with the brass compression one. I just haven't ever used them on PE.


i do like the idea of a stainless or brass barb over plastic but In my mind the compression would be better that may not be true in reality but in my mind seems better I guess it boils down to what the inspectors is ok with that's what I will go with if they allow the barbs I'm good with it but if I have a choice I would prefer the compression. But I thank all of you guys for the suggestions


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Can those fittings be used on poly pipe? I have used the Mueller brand for underground soft copper.


Yes they can be used. Some of the CTS/IPS sizes will interchange. I know Legend makes the couplings in PE sizes. I'm not sure about Ford,Mcdonald or Mueller. I'm sure they offer them as well.


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## hawkeye77 (Feb 20, 2009)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Beat me to it. Haha.


thats what plunger jockey recommended I was referring to it as a compression but that's what I meant I think it will be the way to go provided the inspector agrees


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

In ohio we use the compression fittings with the tightening screw on the ends. We also use the stiffening inserts. Pretty common around here.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

PlungerJockey said:


> Yes they can be used. Some of the CTS/IPS sizes will interchange. I know Legend makes the couplings in PE sizes. I'm not sure about Ford,Mcdonald or Mueller. I'm sure they offer them as well.


Good to know.


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## PathMaker (May 10, 2013)

MTDUNN said:


> What Tommy said. Just make sure there is a PRV set at 55 lbs


and a thermal expansion device at the water heater.:thumbsup:


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## Ghostmaker (Jan 12, 2013)

You will have to use a pipe material that your water provider approves. I would suggest you call them.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

bulldozer said:


> In ohio we use the compression fittings with the tightening screw on the ends. We also use the stiffening inserts. Pretty common around here.



+1

Mac Pac.


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## Ryan M (Dec 8, 2013)

You can use the same waterline to connect to the city though you would obviously disconnect the well. I'd recommend using a rough brass cooperation-coupling. The methods of making connects varies depending on the piping systems being used. The C.C works for copper x copper. I'd recommenced pulling a new line into the house using the existing hole. The old well line has probably had its best before date when it comes to plumbing it needs to be done right the first time & its super easy to replace. 

Step one:

Go inside the home drill 8 holes through the well service line. On the the new line if copper type K hammer the copper flat and dill 8 hole in it too. Use a strong rope or wire cable and tie the two-lines together after that tape up all the holes you made with duck tape to ensure to sharp ends to get caught on anything.

Step two:

Call a tow truck, cut the old water service line from the well and rig it up to the truck and have it slowly pull the old line out while pulling the new line through the same hole.

Step three 

Cut off damaged end on the new line and make your connection to the city. Tada new water service done through the same hole with minimum digging.


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## LBurk (Dec 23, 2013)

Tommy plumber said:


> For starters, the well connection cannot be left connected to the potable water system along with the city water service. That constitutes a cross-connection. Regardless whether or not a permit is pulled, the well pipe has to be disconnected and capped.
> 
> I would definitely not advise a compression fitting on a pressurized water line.
> 
> Is PVC approved for water services in your area? We install schedule 40 PVC all the time for water services here.


Sorry guys, just kind of catching up on some stuff. I love the codes stuff...

Anyhow a (presumably potable) well can absolutely be connected to the same main water service as long as proper backflow prevention is installed as close as possible to the water meter to prevent backflow from the well in to the city mains. At least in Arizona and southern California. The key is the backflow preventer must be a double check or an RPZ at a minimum. a PVB will not work in this application. It doesn't matter to most AHJ's where you get your potable water from. They just don't want your stuff going back into theirs. Technically once water leaves a meter and enters your main water service it is no longer "potable" to the extent of law. The theory is who knows what has been in your piping. This is why many water suppliers have started using meters with built in check valves which by the way if you have experienced it yet, creates a major hot water expansion issue. But that's a whole different story. :furious: 

If you want you can have a set of isolation valves setup in order to turn off the water from the well to the house but still have it available, unless it is to be completely abandoned. If the well is to be completely abandoned the well itself needs to be properly capped in most jurisdictions.


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