# Pipefitter Journeyman License?



## birmingplumb (May 7, 2009)

42 years of being belittled by the U.A. pipefitters for being a card carrying journeyman plumber and not a pipefitter has caused this reply. The last straw was the comment by a Chicago U,A. plumber/welder who has several U.A. welding certifications , about being denied work in Chicago thru local 597 due to being a "Chicago Plumber" on a roadtrash traveler forum I follow. Preceding this was another typical fitter remark "Alberta Canada needs welder and hands, plumber books need not apply." from a year ago on same forum.
It has long bewildered me how much hatred toward the plumber exists in the large U.A. locals where seperate locals exist for fitters and plumbers.
Only after full 42 years do I feel now ready to defend the plumber as I believe change will occur by bringing to light what I believe only God almighty has allowed me to reason out and put into the following simple words.
1. Plumbers in my state are trained to follow codes. We study the plumbing code especially material types and ratings allowed before inspections for obvious (to plumbers) reasons.
2. Pipefitters take no such state test, receive little or no formal code training for "journeyman status". (I am also a licensed Mechanical Contractor and have memorized at one time the BOCA Code Mechanical.)
3. Why does this matter?
My life is at risk every day at the Big Three Auto plant I work at for one reason. 
THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE-THE INSTALLER- PIPEFITTER-JOURNEYMAN U.A. HAS INSTALLED ANY FRICKIN PIPE, FITTING, APPARATUS, DEVICE OR CONTRAPTION HE IS GIVEN WITH ZERO REGUARD TO ITS SAFETY, PRESSURE RATING, OR PRESSURE RELIEF DEVICE SAFEGUARDS or code REQUIREMENTS.
I HAVE FITTINGS SCHEDULE 40 ON 4000PSI SEALER LINES, I HAVE 4 INCH COUPLINGS (SOCKET WELD) MADE OUT OF DRILLED SOLID ROUND STOCK WITH NO PRESSURE STAMP AND OF COURSE NO CITY INSPECTION AND A UNINFORMED UAW UNION WHO OWNS 39% OF THE COMPANY.
ADD TO THAT THE BOOK BUYING FITTERS WHO SPELL 10 TIMES WORSE THAN ME ON ROADTRASH WEBSITES LOOKING FOR WORK AND ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT THINGS EVERY PLUMBER WITH A LICENSE FORGOT THE DAY THEY LEFT THE STATE CODE TEST.


a PLUMBER STANDS FOR SAFETY AND HEALTH OF THE PUBLIC AS HIS FIRST REQUIREMENT. hE IS DUTY BOUND. A FITTER IS NOT BOUND, DUE TO NO FAULT OF HIS OWN, BUT THE U.A. ITSELF FOR FAILURE TO TRAIN PROPERLY. THE ISSUE IS LEADERSHIP. OR IN PLUMBERS TERMS LACK OF.

E MAIL THIS TO A FITTER BIGSHOT IF YOU KNOW ONE. ASK HIM WHY THE FITTER WILL DO ANYTHING FOR THAT PAYCHECK WITH NO QUESTIONS ASK. IF CHANGE DOES COME, MAYBE A LIFE WILL BE SAVED. 

MIKE MARUSKA LOCAL 98 MOTOWN (my spelling off due to passion in me)


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

You need to YELL???


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> You need to YELL???


Yes he does, Its called venting. :yes:

I'll bet he feels much better now. :laughing:


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> You need to YELL???


He's yelling ? 



























































:laughing:


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> You need to YELL???


he started off calm. then his emotions got the best of him. still very valid points.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

They have been ribbing you for 42 years? Just retire and you'll have the last laugh. (and get some thicker skin).


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

Brother I can definitely feel where you are coming from. I'm out of Plumbers Local 5 in DC. Our sister local Steam****ters Local 602 has been putting the boot to our necks for decades. We are a separate local from them.

Our fitters at least go to 5 years of apprenticeship schooling and are required to hold a journeyman HVAC card as well as a UA welding 21 cert and med gas cert. Our plumbers are required to hold a plumbing journeyman card a UA21 welding cert and med gas and natural gas installer Jcard. But guess who gets all of the med gas and gas weld pipe...602. It's so stupid to have this go on throughout our area.

Many locals are forced to combine, like Baltimore did way back, but 602 has fought to not to allow us to combine. Its so political it makes me sick.

I'm just setting the stage for myself to pull out and shelf my card so I can open my own shop. That day can't come soon enough for me. Tired of the steam****ters taking my work. By the way did I mention they don't hold a natural gas installer license yet do most of the gas work in commercial?


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## birmingplumb (May 7, 2009)

Go in business? I did that when "they" refused to buy me sleeves in order to weld at Marathon Refinery in 1990. I will probably do the same again when I leave the UAW job I have been on for 18 years. But losing our best journeymen because of this one issue of hatred towards the plumber does not help improve the U.A. only adds to its demise. There is no reason the code authorities can justify steam fitters not being held to a standard by the state they practice in. The U.A. standard allows the book buying south to water down everything we stand for in theory. I believe lack of leadership (VISION) is the culprit. I posted a question on American Society Engineers official
forum years ago about what is the ethical standard for engineers knowingly bypassing codes and inspections and what remidys at the state level could be available. I received exactly zero responses in 4 weeks yet 500 new posts were addressed (softballs) So leadership has to quit taking 5 pitches to hit a "softball". ( They say we all must weld for example due to political correctness?) 
Again, why should a dues paying U.A. member have to leave his family and his church and his state , when a sister local in the same town has out of state travelers working in that same city by the thousands, due to having a plumbers and not a fitters book-weather earned or bought? That is the issue not my punctuation my brothers.


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

Have you filed a formal grievance with the UA? I know if a fitter member told me that, I'd be up there filing my papers on him. Plumbers have equal rights under the UA constitution we all swear to. And our charter infactly has gas line work in it, fitters only have point of connection it theirs.

These fitter locals all do this crap and it pisses me off too. Maryland has laws that you must hold a gas installer license in order to work on ANY gas pipe line. The fitters are licensed in your area? Does Chicago require a license? If so, don't hesitate to report them. Do everything you can to get your work back.


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## CT18 (Sep 18, 2012)

Mike,

I hear you on the pipe fighter mentality towards plumbers. I am also out of Local 98, since 1989. I started doing CAD design back in 2005, I am currently at De-Cal Mechanical (which is owned by 2 plumbers). I have welded on many jobs back in the old days with fitters on optional work, and took a ton of ribbing from them. I have also worked out of Local 190 in Ann Arbor which is a combined local. I found that the fitter, plumber hatred is not as bad as it is in Detroit. I think they are just bitter that we can do there work but they can't do ours unless they get there license.

But for someone to say Plumbers need not apply like that is ridicules, especially in these times where a lot of tradesman have been out of work, some for many month's. We need to look out for each other more as human beings, not what trade you are in.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Fitters think they are better. Y do they rib you. I don't get it ??


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Fitters think they are better. Y do they rib you. I don't get it ??


It boils down to money. See around here companies value HVAC aka fitting more than plumbing. Plumbing mark-up is stagnant and way under valued on commercial jobs. Developers wan't the HVAC and plumbing sub-contract work to be done by the same contractor. So mechanical shops have to do plumbing and there in lies the problem. Many don't want to do the plumbing and view it with disdain, no value, etc. Management for these companies carry themselves this way and it leeches down to the field workers. So there is a sort of class warfare that goes on within these companies.

Bottom line is HVAC is where the big money is on commercial work and therefore is consider the favored child.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Relic said:


> It boils down to money. See around here companies value HVAC aka fitting more than plumbing. Plumbing mark-up is stagnant and way under valued on commercial jobs. Developers wan't the HVAC and plumbing sub-contract work to be done by the same contractor. So mechanical shops have to do plumbing and there in lies the problem. Many don't want to do the plumbing and view it with disdain, no value, etc. Management for these companies carry themselves this way and it leeches down to the field workers. So there is a sort of class warfare that goes on within these companies.
> 
> Bottom line is HVAC is where the big money is on commercial work and therefore is consider the favored child.


When I was doing big new con, our plumbing dept was the money maker. Fitters brought in much less dough than then plumbers did.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

I come from a combined local, in fact I can't think of anywhere in Canada that I've heard of them being seperate. That being said, there is playful ribbing that goes on between "Dumbers and steamfückers" but that's about it.

Local 493 has sent correspondence to my home local saying that their "open call" applies to Red Seal fitters and welders only, plumbers need not apply. 663 is also very hard to get dispatched from with just a plumbing ticket.

They're just jealous. 

Imho, if they're that dead set against us, divide the locals and watch us all sink... Sure in the few spread out industrial regions (Sarnia and the western refinery towns namely) the fitter reigns supreme, but here a SF local could not exist independently.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Relic said:


> It boils down to money. See around here companies value HVAC aka fitting more than plumbing. Plumbing mark-up is stagnant and way under valued on commercial jobs. Developers wan't the HVAC and plumbing sub-contract work to be done by the same contractor. So mechanical shops have to do plumbing and there in lies the problem. Many don't want to do the plumbing and view it with disdain, no value, etc. Management for these companies carry themselves this way and it leeches down to the field workers. So there is a sort of class warfare that goes on within these companies.
> 
> Bottom line is HVAC is where the big money is on commercial work and therefore is consider the favored child.


Way diff here I did plumbing. A/c hydronic All done by me. Plumber No fitter. Just a welder I acted as a fitter I guess If not a mech company and just a plumbing then an a/c company does only a/c. But can't do hydronic only mech company does it. Sound like politics to me


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

A motivated plumber can be trained to fit fairly quickly. Training a fitter to plumb isn't so easy. 
Basically, it comes down to this:
Can a plumber fit? Yes.
Can a fitter plumb? Not without considerable training.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Plumbus said:


> A motivated plumber can be trained to fit fairly quickly. Training a fitter to plumb isn't so easy.
> Basically, it comes down to this:
> Can a plumber fit? Yes.
> Can a fitter plumb? Not without considerable training.


I'm a better fitter than many fitters I know...

After level 1 tradeschool and a couple of UA code classes I was a better plumber than EVERY fitter I know. :yes:


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

RW Plumbing said:


> When I was doing big new con, our plumbing dept was the money maker. Fitters brought in much less dough than then plumbers did.


I'm specifically talking about more money for the mech contractor. Not talking about paychecks. Markup for heating and cooling equipment is insane, way more than some toilet. It's not even a close one around here. HVAC is the primary focus of most dual shops.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Relic said:


> I'm specifically talking about more money for the mech contractor. Not talking about paychecks. Markup for heating and cooling equipment is insane, way more than some toilet. It's not even a close one around here. HVAC is the primary focus of most dual shops.


Yeah, I understand that. On a hospital the plumber does all the med gas. Ever price out that equipment? Like I said, the plumbers are the money makers.


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

just wait till they come out with new 24 and 36 inch sharkbites. then were all f$#ked


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

Fast fry said:


> just wait till they come out with new 24 and 36 inch sharkbites. then were all f$#ked


How big do shark bites go ?


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

I've seen 2"


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I've seen 2"


 sharkbite website says 2" i cant imagine the price on one of them.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Price. Who cares. I can't imagine going to sleep that night !!! A 1/2" blows of that's some water. And usually at a home. A 2" blows at a biz over night. Hell. You'd have water up to the windows !!!!


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

i think sharks are like everything else. if its not installed proper your going to have problems with it. i have used them plenty and never an issue. not saying i want to pipe an entire building in them but thats because of price. not because i dont trust the fittings.


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

Having never been exposed to the union or commercial jobs, I haven't experienced what had been discussed here, but I think I understand....

So your saying I chose the correct trade, whew!

Man with the oilsands up here I should have joined the local ***, at least for a few years anyways....many millionaire tradesmen in this province.....


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

dclarke said:


> i think sharks are like everything else. if its not installed proper your going to have problems with it. i have used them plenty and never an issue. not saying i want to pipe an entire building in them but thats because of price. not because i dont trust the fittings.


Don't you want to set yourself apart from any guy that can pick up a sharkbite? Soldering= skill... No? Just asking


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

redbeardplumber said:


> Don't you want to set yourself apart from any guy that can pick up a sharkbite? Soldering= skill... No? Just asking


i can and have soldered. ive done residential since i started and no residential around her is copper anymore. the only copper i see is in old houses and we have harsh water that eats the copper up. to me it doesnt make much sense to solder in a new piece of copper to repair failing copper. unfortunately there is A LOT of cpvc but its what we have. luckily i have switched to service so now ill have job security.


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## birmingplumb (May 7, 2009)

U666A said:


> I come from a combined local, in fact I can't think of anywhere in Canada that I've heard of them being seperate. That being said, there is playful ribbing that goes on between "Dumbers and steamfückers" but that's about it.
> 
> Local 493 has sent correspondence to my home local saying that their "open call" applies to Red Seal fitters and welders only, plumbers need not apply. 663 is also very hard to get dispatched from with just a plumbing ticket.
> 
> ...


They were dumb enough to reduce discrimination to writing? I would pay for a copy of that correspondence. Time is now. Motown


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## lead lover (Jul 18, 2012)

birmingplumb said:


> 42 years of being belittled by the U.A. pipefitters for being a card carrying journeyman plumber and not a pipefitter has caused this reply. The last straw was the comment by a Chicago U,A. plumber/welder who has several U.A. welding certifications , about being denied work in Chicago thru local 597 due to being a "Chicago Plumber" on a roadtrash traveler forum I follow. Preceding this was another typical fitter remark "Alberta Canada needs welder and hands, plumber books need not apply." from a year ago on same forum.
> It has long bewildered me how much hatred toward the plumber exists in the large U.A. locals where seperate locals exist for fitters and plumbers.
> Only after full 42 years do I feel now ready to defend the plumber as I believe change will occur by bringing to light what I believe only God almighty has allowed me to reason out and put into the following simple words.
> 1. Plumbers in my state are trained to follow codes. We study the plumbing code especially material types and ratings allowed before inspections for obvious (to plumbers) reasons.
> ...


A fitter is just a plumber with his brains knocked out.


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## lead lover (Jul 18, 2012)

I have a license to do what they do, they do not have a license to do what I do.


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

lead lover said:


> I have a license to do what they do, they do not have a license to do what I do.



That is where the beef is . Plumbers can go out as fitters and fitters can t go out as plumbers


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

I have my universal cfc license and a smaw pipe welding cert. Most union fitters don't even carry what I do. Plus I have to carry all my plumbing related licenses. Steam$hitters can lick my boots for all I care.


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