# Warthog or rootrat or both ?



## 1manshow (Jul 15, 2014)

watched a couple of videos on the root rat and it looks fairly impressive. I have a wart hog and its done ok so far , but isn't it smart to have another type of kick #ss nozzle in the arsenal . also these root rats look like they could also damage certain types of pipe much more easily than a warthog. anyone using the rootrat ?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I use both...
I'm a big fan of chain flail jetter nozzles...
Bear in mind it is a premium service commanding a higher price...
The nozzle does require maintenance, and there are consumables...
In addition operations such as descaling can require a substantial investment of time.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

what kind of jetter do you have?


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## 1manshow (Jul 15, 2014)

gear junkie said:


> what kind of jetter do you have?


12 / 3 jetters northwest trailer .

gear - i watched a video you posted some time back with a rootranger and couldnt help but notice that the operator was having to twist the hose to penetrate the roots . seems like no problem when you are very close to roots , but is'nt that a pain in the #ss when they are a good distance away ? why would anyone go with this nozzle vs a rootrat . my only guess would be that the rootrat could inflict more damage to the pipe . maybe start with a chisel type to penetrae first then follow with a root ranger ?


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## 1manshow (Jul 15, 2014)

Redwood said:


> I use both...
> I'm a big fan of chain flail jetter nozzles...
> Bear in mind it is a premium service commanding a higher price...
> The nozzle does require maintenance, and there are consumables...
> In addition operations such as descaling can require a substantial investment of time.


watched the maintenance video on the rootrat . seems like a simple procedure . have you ever destroyed some pipe with this nozzle ? what kind of time investment comes to mind when descaling a 4 " cast iron drain approx 30 ' in length ? keep in mind redwood I am running a 12/3 mainly residential and yes i have taken to heart your posts re : the jetting coures. i will attend one this coming year as i am dedicated to learning as much as possible so i can perform the best job possible.


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

The root rat wears out very quickly. I would defiantly charge extra for using it. It's more of a cosmetic thing to me. It gets rid of the little danglers the warthog leaves behind that wouldn't cause an issue anyways


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

1manshow said:


> 12 / 3 jetters northwest trailer .
> 
> gear - i watched a video you posted some time back with a rootranger and couldnt help but notice that the operator was having to twist the hose to penetrate the roots . seems like no problem when you are very close to roots , but is'nt that a pain in the #ss when they are a good distance away ? why would anyone go with this nozzle vs a rootrat . my only guess would be that the rootrat could inflict more damage to the pipe . maybe start with a chisel type to penetrae first then follow with a root ranger ?


80% of my jetting comes from sewer inspection initiated by a home sale. So in most cases the line isn't completely closed. I've found if a full size seesnake can get through the blockage, so can the root ranger. In the rare case the line is 100% plugged, I use the dreel with a 3" or 4" double spiral blade to open the line. Then I use the jetter to clean the pipe. 

My setup is a 4.5 gpm 3000 psi that I made. After 100' out or multiple bends, getting the nozzle to the city tap gets iffy so I'm currently upsizing to a 5.5 gpm 4300 psi jetter. However I do out to 150' all the time with no loss of cutting effectiveness. I just want the nozzle to pull all 150', hence the jetter upsize. My average jetter time from getting there, preinspection, jet and final inspection, pack up is 2 hours. 

I jet 4-6" with 6" clay laterals with roots being my most common situation. I use 2 main nozzles.....the root ranger and the warthog. The root ranger is used to cut the roots and remove them all but it leaves alot of surface dirt and swirl marks. So I then use a 3/8 warthog to flush out all the cuttings and present a nice clean uniform appearance to the pipe. My inspections are viewed for home sale and presenting a clean pipe really calms hesitant buyers so I consider final appearance to be important. 

Why use the root rat vs a root ranger? I've never used a root rat or seen any videos on it's effectiveness on roots. It may be awesome.....I just haven't seen it. The root ranger I know very well and is easy to repair and requires almost no maintenance. Does no damage to pipe and is self cleaning when dealing with heavy roots. If you want a spinning chain flail, I'd recommend you talk to Cuda and Plungerman as they have the Keg nozzle and that seems much better built then a root rat.

I really like the root ranger but the one disadvantage is you have to twist the nozzle and get it in the right spot. Super easy to do but some people have difficulties with this. Here's a video I made showing how to do this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xwqpB8fjKs I also use 5/16 hose which is way easier to twist then 3/8 hose. 

The warthog is a great nozzle but I've heard from more then 1 plumber that it doesn't punch through a blockage instantly when the blockage is holding water...even when the jetter is a 4018. One nozzle I'd be very interested in if I had a trailer jetter is the Twister nozzle sold by Jetter Depot. It looks like a turbo nozzle with back jets. The turbo nozzle is amazing and I often use one with a push rod to punch through 10 foot+ solid root blockages. The twister nozzle if it works, would get rid of the push rod.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

We have Root Rats, and Enz chain flails. Really it takes a lot of trying to damage a pipe...

Sure the chain spins and touches the pipe...
But it needs to hit something protruding into the pipe to do damage...

I use the chain flails more on grease and descaling operations than I do roots...
The usual roots that we'll hit with the chain flail are cleaning up a line for shooting a liner...


When you find an industrial plant with a scaled line bringing production to a halt and the best estimate they have heard yet was getting riggers and tearing out a piece of equipment the building was built around to fix the problem with better than a month of shutdown...

Well... You get the picture
You can write your own prices! :laughing:

When they see the crud pouring out of the pipes and you continuously feeding in hose they start smiling and thinking they have a helluva deal with me spending most of the day there...

Even better sending the camera down the line and them seeing how clean it is...

Scheduling a PM to go back and keep it clean? No problem! I've been back once already and we'll be hitting it every 6 months...

I'm not selling these as a good item for a small jetter, it would kinda be like an underpowered weed whacker...

With a 12/3 you are probably in the range where you can feed it some work without stalling it...


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## 1manshow (Jul 15, 2014)

Redwood said:


> We have Root Rats, and Enz chain flails. Really it takes a lot of trying to damage a pipe...
> 
> Sure the chain spins and touches the pipe...
> But it needs to hit something protruding into the pipe to do damage...
> ...


Are you running a 18/4 to do this industrial plant work or something larger ?


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

BTW 1man...just to get your terminology off on the right foot. 1st two numbers are pressure. Last 2 numbers are gpm. So yours is a 3012 and mine is a 3045.


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

I made video today that I can't wait to add to this thread. I ran camera from the inside clean out while my employee ran warthog upstream from outside. It peeled the masses off the joints but even sitting there going back and forth it would not remove the leader roots. The RR is brutal when it comes to thick leaders. I think a true Jetter set up needs both. They are both great and both have their place


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

These are my typical results in 6" clay with the root ranger/warthog combo.


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## 1manshow (Jul 15, 2014)

gear junkie said:


> BTW 1man...just to get your terminology off on the right foot. 1st two numbers are pressure. Last 2 numbers are gpm. So yours is a 3012 and mine is a 3045.


got it gear - thanks


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

Gear junkies comments and videos sold me on a RR. I don't care if your unit can power 40GPM at 3 k the RR has its place. 

Put it this way I bought one, saw what it can do, accidentally dropped it down a 54" storm sanitary combo that I was pulling the lid on to access a 6" watched it get swept away and ordered another one even though I own a warthog and root rat as well. All three are quality nozzles and if you want to kick ass you need all of them. They will pay for themselves I promise.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

1manshow said:


> Are you running a 18/4 to do this industrial plant work or something larger ?


US Jetting 4018
1/2" chain flail nozzle


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

Redwood said:


> 1/2" chain flail nozzle


When using the CF doesn't the roots get tangled up on the head? I'm asking because I have never used one or seen one in action 

We sometime get this on our WH.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

On small jetters it can because they don't have enough sack to keep the chain flail spinning...


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

That's something I almost never come back with. Even though the root ranger looks like a big hook, it just shreds the roots up into little bits and won't bog down under normal circumstances.


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

gear junkie said:


> That's something I almost never come back with. Even though the root ranger looks like a big hook, it just shreds the roots up into little bits and won't bog down under normal circumstances.


Very true. If you get a chance to jet upstream with the RR from a manhole you will see giant wads of roots on the camera but only tiny flakes come out


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## 1manshow (Jul 15, 2014)

Unclog1776 said:


> Gear junkies comments and videos sold me on a RR. I don't care if your unit can power 40GPM at 3 k the RR has its place.
> 
> Put it this way I bought one, saw what it can do, accidentally dropped it down a 54" storm sanitary combo that I was pulling the lid on to access a 6" watched it get swept away and ordered another one even though I own a warthog and root rat as well. All three are quality nozzles and if you want to kick ass you need all of them. They will pay for themselves I promise.


 thats what I was thinking


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Here is what a chain flail nozzle does to things that protrude into a pipe...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43_VqrT3vqc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQGc96T9a_8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzpcWndUrSQ


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Here is what a chain flail nozzle does to things that protrude into a pipe...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43_VqrT3vqc
> 
> ...


Cool videos but my question is can a CF go in a curved or bent pipe.

For example: 6"clay run. not very straight but no fittings.some times guys run them really crooked.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plungerboy said:


> Cool videos but my question is can a CF go in a curved or bent pipe.
> 
> For example: 6"clay run. not very straight but no fittings.some times guys run them really crooked.


A cockeyed run of vitrified clay is no problem...
But I'd be careful if there are bad misalignments...
Truth be told that should be dug up and repaired anyhow...
But a bad misaligned pipe may find the chain to be aggressive on it...

Properly plumbed a line should not present problems with the chain flail passing through the line...


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

For the chainflail users, I do have some questions.

-Can a 6" chain flail go down a 3" pipe and the navigate through at least two 4" 1/8 bends?

-if a 4" chain flail went through 6" pipe, does it just bore a hole the same size as the chains or does it hit all the pipe walls?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Obviously Gear a proper sized cleanout should be on the line...

How would your K-60 do in similar circumstances?:whistling2:

Mechanical cutters obviously are a whole different ballgame than just water jets...


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

A common setup here is a 4x3 two way cleanout. The line is 4" up to the street and then increases to 6" clay. 

How would my K60 do in this situation? Hmmmm......probably about the same as your K7500. :whistling2:

I understand mechanical cutters are a different ballgame....hence my question.
So back to the questions I posed......how would a chain flail do in those scenarios?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

gear junkie said:


> A common setup here is a 4x3 two way cleanout. The line is 4" up to the street and then increases to 6" clay.
> 
> How would my K60 do in this situation? Hmmmm......probably about the same as your K7500. :whistling2:
> 
> ...


The 3/8' Root Rat which will fit your small jetter would have no problems getting through a 3" 90... The 1/2" Root Rat would call a 4" 90 a minimum...

I have put longer chains on for going out into larger dia pipes, I would not do that with a roller chain though...

Of course like your k-60 if you had a 3" saw on it you'd be cutting a 3" hole if you did not increase the chain length to work the larger pipe...

With my K-7500 I would select a 3-5 offset blade and bend it out slightly which will nicely clean the 6" I do that often in the lines here where there is a house trap or 4" increases to 6" a little way out from the foundation... The 4-6 offset which would be my preferred blade in 6" will not make sharp turns...


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

I have only had 1 time that the chain nozzle wasted the pipe and it was because the pipe was dust anyway, I was actually making a real cool video for you guys to watch and I was eating through 50 feet of roots and then the sidewall of the pipe blasted out and massive amounts of gravel filled into the line. One second filled of roots the next the line was full of gravel as I was almost done, changed nozzles to flow the gravel out so the people could get through the night and returned to do a pipe burst the next day, deleted the video but probably should have kept it I may look around and see if I did delete it I was pissed at the time. But besides this time the chains have been great when I thought they where needed and would buy a chain flail again if needed.


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

Cuda said:


> I have only had 1 time that the chain nozzle wasted the pipe and it was because the pipe was dust anyway, I was actually making a real cool video for you guys to watch and I was eating through 50 feet of roots and then the sidewall of the pipe blasted out and massive amounts of gravel filled into the line. One second filled of roots the next the line was full of gravel as I was almost done, changed nozzles to flow the gravel out so the people could get through the night and returned to do a pipe burst the next day, deleted the video but probably should have kept it I may look around and see if I did delete it I was pissed at the time. But besides this time the chains have been great when I thought they where needed and would buy a chain flail again if needed.


You are lucky it didn't bury your stuff


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## theplungerman (Oct 26, 2011)

gear junkie said:


> For the chainflail users, I do have some questions.
> 
> -Can a 6" chain flail go down a 3" pipe and the navigate through at least two 4" 1/8 bends?
> 
> -if a 4" chain flail went through 6" pipe, does it just bore a hole the same size as the chains or does it hit all the pipe walls?


rpars.com keg: http://youtu.be/whCYccShLf8
In this u have probably seen notice how it sits up, centers, and flail away. 
Yes I could get through a 3 inch into a 4 inch w 1/8 bends easily,,, with a 6 inch chain set up. I can get around a 4 inch 90 as well. It doesn't have to be on max spin to move. With some pressure it will move without spinning. I call my keg chain my secret weapon. But use my 1/2 warthog the most. Both nozzels are a must, along with some more. Don't go middle of the road, get it all to do all.


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## 1manshow (Jul 15, 2014)

Unclog1776 said:


> I made video today that I can't wait to add to this thread. I ran camera from the inside clean out while my employee ran warthog upstream from outside. It peeled the masses off the joints but even sitting there going back and forth it would not remove the leader roots. The RR is brutal when it comes to thick leaders. I think a true Jetter set up needs both. They are both great and both have their place


very impressive cleaning capabilities .So I contacted ridgid regarding root ranger info . told him what my set up was ( 3012 ) with a 1/2" hose . also have a 3/8" & 1/4" hose . he told me that the perfomance was not exceed 5.5 gpm and it would perform poorly with my set up . any experiance running greater volume than 5.5 gpm through this nozzle ? also , mustang nozzles makes their version of the root ranger , have you heard any feedback regarding mustangs ?


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## 1manshow (Jul 15, 2014)

noticable price difference between the chain flail's. enz , keg seem to be pricey compared to the root rat . got to be a difference on the quality level of these different nozzles


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

1manshow said:


> very impressive cleaning capabilities .So I contacted ridgid regarding root ranger info . told him what my set up was ( 3012 ) with a 1/2" hose . also have a 3/8" & 1/4" hose . he told me that the perfomance was not exceed 5.5 gpm and it would perform poorly with my set up . any experiance running greater volume than 5.5 gpm through this nozzle ? also , mustang nozzles makes their version of the root ranger , have you heard any feedback regarding mustangs ?



Not sure how your Jetter works but mine is a [email protected] set up. Not every nozzle gets the full 9gpm as I can see a noticeable difference in how fast my tank empties. Unused water should be circulated back to the tank. My nozzle preforms great


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## 1manshow (Jul 15, 2014)

Unclog1776 said:


> Not sure how your Jetter works but mine is a [email protected] set up. Not every nozzle gets the full 9gpm as I can see a noticeable difference in how fast my tank empties. Unused water should be circulated back to the tank. My nozzle preforms great


tested my jetter for actual pressure at the end of the hose ( 400' - 1/2' and 200' - 3/8" ) 600' total with a standard type nozzle - 1 foward 4 back . it read 3000 psi at hose end . when unloader valve is not directing water to hose/nozzle it automatically bypasses the water back to the water tank. if you are saying that your Root Ranger performs well at the numbers you stated or just a bit below , than I just might take my chances and order one.


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

What Jetter do you have?


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## 1manshow (Jul 15, 2014)

Unclog1776 said:


> What Jetter do you have?


jetters northwest 200 trailer , 3000 psi / 12 gpm


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

You will be fine with a RR. the warthog is amazing on roots but if you don't mind spinning the hose you will be done with far less camera checks


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## theplungerman (Oct 26, 2011)

Unclog1776 said:


> You will be fine with a RR. the warthog is amazing on roots but if you don't mind spinning the hose you will be done with far less camera checks


I think 12gpm at 3k is the starting point for a keg micro mini. They guarantee satisfaction or your money back. Tell them, - keg- your specs and see if they say you got enough power. A great chain flail.


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