# GC rant..its been a while



## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Oh yes I almost forgot why to never look back.


Long time friend and GC/small dollar store addition....sequence of events.

job sits 3.5 months
when it starts its rush rush to accomodate the concrete man's schedule(mind you there is little to no work going on)
backhoe man tears up sewer and water service...have to break away and fix
rough done flawlessly and on time
check late....day it comes in its left in the rain and in light red ink..wet and unreadable by the atm
call up to let the know and thats when the poetry begins
1. I'm not going to say anything to the girl..shes written thousands of checks and no problem...to which I say, I'll talk to her..blue or black ink please.
2. I guess you wouldnt be calling if you didnt need the money...things have a way of working out...to which I say, I'm the one running around spending time picking up another check and things have a way of working out...you told me Friday and its Monday.
3.Yea well I'm paying you from another job because the owner is on vacation etc etc...to which I say, not my problem..I'm glad you have the other jobs.
4. I thought the repair was high..( copper torn up into the footing and a lot of jackhammer work...sewer and water repaired 4.5 hrs...)...to which I say, did you look at the hours it took. Well its just money I wasnt planning to spend.
5.You know there are some guys just happy to have work...to which I said, if you want some guy who will wait a month for his money ...USE HIM.
6. The finale...You know I get up at 4 am and drive to start work at 7 and work all thru the day until whenever and Im driving home now with no breaks and just 1 hr lunch. I said thats illegal and you should turn yourself in....I said are you making any money..He said I wont know until the end...

I dont think the hearts and minds of the GC's will ever be changed. They still spout out the same stuff. Of course in true Rodney Dangerfield fashion..I tell my son the story and he says ..no one wants to hear that stuff. Its his check that will be ready tomorrow because of the effort.
Ah service....sweeeet service..come to me.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I'm having problems with one of those myself. The guy is always asking for extras. Can you stop out at this job and do this or that over because the customer doesn't like a fixture the GC provided. Or telling me a job is ready to be finished that is 45 minutes away when it isn't ready. The vanity top isn't installed so it's impossible to hook up the sink. 

Then when the guy owes you thousands of dollars, he wants you to finish a job when he hasn't paid you for the rough in yet. After that is hurry up and get this job inspected so I can pay you for the last one. It gets really old dealing with hack GC's but fustrating when you need the work.


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## aero1 (Feb 13, 2009)

thats typical don't forget your dealing with a pro they help to build a brighter futures by lying cheating and generally wasting and stealing our time and we let them, why because we need the work or someone else might grab it, or making some money is better than making no money. who knows how it started but my dad remembers his dad ranting about the same thing it sucks and yes most G.C.s suck [of course this is just my humble opinion] but i do feel your rant brother ps if they new how to sell the job right the first time, naw never happen


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

I have a landscaper that hires me to install the RPZ for his lawn sprinkler systems. The most recent job he was giving me a sob story about how the GC has not paid anyone. I call him every 30 days, on the 90 day I tried to call him and his # was turned off. So I call the restaurant and tell them I have an outstanding invoice for work done there. They gave me the GC's # When I called the GC he informs me he had paid the landscaper 30K last month. My bill was only around 1200 bucks. The GC had me fax him the invoices and past due notices we sent the landscaper, and he promised he get us paid. This was a month ago. 

Talked to the GC last week he told me he is having a meeting with the Manager of the job site on the 24th and will get my check released then. I am going to give it till the end of the week and call him if I do not see my check by then.

I swear if I ever hear from this landscaper again its going to be cash upfront.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*Trade work for karate lessons*

we just finished up a karate school on the west side of town.
they did their own general contracting, and did not know what 
the hell they are doing... 

had everyone at each others throats before the building was finished
...

I did not want to do the work, but my brother in-law is
 kind of sweet on the owner of the place.....dont ask



the job is now done and we had extras to the tune of 3000
which of course had to be done asap before opening of the school....

now its how about a few years of free lessons for the extras,
 because we are tapped out and we dont got the money....:furious::furious:


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## plumbear (Jun 24, 2010)

I think it is a prerequisite to a G.C. license that you must have at least 5 years verifiable experience as a pawn broker.


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## plumbear (Jun 24, 2010)

That sucks, you should kick their asses.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> the job is now done and we had extras to the tune of 3000
> which of course had to be done asap before opening of the school....
> 
> now its how about a few years of free lessons for the extras,
> because we are tapped out and we dont got the money....:furious::furious:


Time to go down there with a tow strap and repo the plumbing...:laughing:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*the story goes on*



Redwood said:


> Time to go down there with a tow strap and repo the plumbing...:laughing:


Redwood ...let me bore you with the details..

its a Karate school... 
the city was trying to force them to install handicapped
showers in the bathrooms...... to the tune of at least another 5k on the estimate

they refused to do it and just installed a couple of floor drains in the general area , 
and ran water lines and stubbed them off in the wall for "sometime in the future"

we told them that this was basically illegal and you ought to try to get a variance first....
nope .... dont want to hear that.

then when the place is done and they got their occupancy permit, 
now they want to install the cheapest stand up stalls available.... asap 

then we set one of them in place and they dont like them....too cheap looking

eventually we install 2 neo angle mustee shower bases 
and 2 floor drains in front of them in the concrete and install the delta faucets in the wall.....

someone else is going to install marble panels, and then somehow rig up shower curtains for them....:laughing:

they dont want to spend the money for shower doors...:laughing:

by the time it is done , it will be costing them more 
than if they would have just put in the handicapped showers like we told them to do...:yes::yes:

you cant tell them nothing, 
just hand them the bill and let them see how they stuck it in their own ass...

and truth of the matter.... they will some how blame us for not 
explaining that better to them in the first place:yes::yes:

the bill is pending , we could be paid in the next month or so, probably in installments...

but not karate lessons...:no::no:


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

stillaround said:


> Oh yes I almost forgot why to never look back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 All you have to do to understand this GC's attitude, is look at the situation from his side of the fence. All his problems are caused by you. That's what he thinks. And because of this, you should be willing to throw your profits, & eventually your whole business & livelyhood out the window. Yea, that would make him feel good.:yes: This way he can be your friend, & maybe then he may take you out on one of his yachts. This way he can be (pun intended) Stillaround.

I hate 90% of GC's. They seem to think us subs are robbing them if we make a profit.:furious: And as always, the faster they demand the work to be done, the slower they pay.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I love how one min. they will ask for a favor or if they can lower your price. The very next min, complain that you are charging an extra for something not included in a typical rough in. Finishing jobs before you're paid for the rough in is what really gets me.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Don The Plumber said:


> They seem to think us subs are robbing them if we make a profit.:furious: And as always, the faster they demand the work to be done, the slower they pay.


Sad thing is that the majority of them are 10% men who do not know what they are doing. They underestimate to get the job and then expect the subcontractors to give up their profit so they can still get theirs.

100% correct - 'the faster they demand the work to be done, the slower they pay.'

We are in the process of collecting from a builder that was referred from another plumbing company where the owner went out of town. There won't be a next time. No job is worth the aggravation of chasing to get your money.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

You guys got to learn to get a little bolder and tougher.

Tell them up front before you even start the job how and when you expect to be paid.

Tell them you are not a bank and dont loan money.. so dont ask!!!!!

I learned being straight forward from the start always gets my money.

If they want it cheap I tell them right away you got the wrong man.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> You guys got to learn to get a little bolder and tougher.
> 
> Tell them up front before you even start the job how and when you expect to be paid.
> 
> ...


Job was to start the next morning, faxed them a proposal, and they faxed back with signature. Payment terms clearly spelled out (10 days upon completion of our work). Check was mailed yesterday - day 25.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> You guys got to learn to get a little bolder and tougher.
> 
> Tell them up front before you even start the job how and when you expect to be paid.
> 
> ...


 I agree about up front but it can easily end up like what Plum said. I have a reputation of being obnoxious or not gentlemanly or whatever ...and its all a way they use to run from the facts. If I dont perform properly on a job I might get a bit defensive 1st reaction but usually see it because its clear...not on time or it leaked..or failed inspection and held things up ....but this extra hoop stuff to pick up the broken pieces for the GC for free gets old. Yes things come up but how about getting fairly compensated for the change. I had a meeting with my biggest GC a couple years back and he agreed that if I stipulated upfront that each additional trip would be a charge and each damage to our plumbing would include a trip charge plus hourly..in writing...he couldnt use me.
Some have said they paid me just to keep me away from the office..and mind you I'm not a tough guy style...that is how far removed a lot of them are.
Continuing ed one year stated a memorable point.... a basic premise of contract law is the reasonable expectation to be paid in a timely fashion. Its a valid reason for breach. But who wins going legal?


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> You guys got to learn to get a little bolder and tougher.
> 
> Tell them up front before you even start the job how and when you expect to be paid.
> 
> ...


You can preach this till the cows come home. If they aint got the money, or don't know how to manage it, the GC will pay you on their terms, not yours, like it or not. Like PC said, 10 days in contract to be paid, & they got paid on day 25. Now you want to know what's worse than that........... I think that GC was good.:yes:

They do the exact same thing with estimates. Always a rush, I have to stop what I'm doing at the time, & go look at job, get quote 911, or both. Then you never get the job.:furious:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Remember, I still have not been paid. Haven't we all heard 'checks in the mail?'

If we don't get the check by Friday, then it's a trip to the Magistrate and filing a lien. This was not put into our bid. :furious:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*master card works good here*



PlumbCrazy said:


> Remember, I still have not been paid. Haven't we all heard 'checks in the mail?'
> 
> If we don't get the check by Friday, then it's a trip to the Magistrate and filing a lien. This was not put into our bid. :furious:


 
call them that you are going to file a lien today or you will

accept payment on a *master card.....* usually they will pay 

you with the *tapped out* company master card just to get 

you out of their hair and not have to deal with a lien

, and worry about how to pay that off later....


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

I would be tickled to death with a 25 or 30 day pay instead of 60 90 120 or whatever the hell we get these days. :furious:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Well you have to know who you have to keep on the short leash....

Small time GC..home owners... I give them no rope at all.

On the other hand large corporation that I know I will get paid.. and if the are normally slow at paying then I have this charged in my intial invoice..

You need some one on accounts recievable.... yes some times you have to hound people to get paid. But you have to become persistent and call get a date acceptable for payment then call to remind them a couple of days before it is due and if not recieved on due date back to calling again..

Me how ever I like the personal up close contact were I go to visit them... No small talk.... just I am here to get paid... pull out the CC machine and hand it over..

It been along time since I have been rolled or attempted to be rolled.... one way or the other you are paying.

I even make some people pay as soon as we get to the door in full before we start.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

stillaround said:


> I agree about up front but it can easily end up like what Plum said. I have a reputation of being obnoxious or not gentlemanly or whatever ...and its all a way they use to run from the facts. If I dont perform properly on a job I might get a bit defensive 1st reaction but usually see it because its clear...not on time or it leaked..or failed inspection and held things up ....but this extra hoop stuff to pick up the broken pieces for the GC for free gets old. Yes things come up but how about getting fairly compensated for the change. I had a meeting with my biggest GC a couple years back and he agreed that if I stipulated upfront that each additional trip would be a charge and each damage to our plumbing would include a trip charge plus hourly..in writing...he couldnt use me.
> Some have said they paid me just to keep me away from the office..and mind you I'm not a tough guy style...that is how far removed a lot of them are.
> Continuing ed one year stated a memorable point.... a basic premise of contract law is the reasonable expectation to be paid in a timely fashion. Its a valid reason for breach. But who wins going legal?


 
Its all in the original contract... make sure you add in the good with the bad and have them sign it. You can write in what ever you want and they are bound by the contract..penalty ..interest..terms...nonrefundable clause.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

I agree OldSchool but we don't deal with homeowners or homebuilders. You can have interest in your contract all day long but you don't get it. They know its not worth the litigation. After 2 or 3 months do you want your money or do you want to argue over the interest? Pay me the money already b*tch. What PO's me is when we have to get into our line of credit. If I would ask the bank if they want their money are they want to argue over interest they would just say "We will just have both Thank You"  Most of the work we do the money is pretty much guaranteed to be good, although slow. Sometimes you just have to weigh it out, tack on some if you can, hope for an extra etc. Some are worth it some not. We have fired more than one GC. :yes:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Piperat said:


> I agree OldSchool but we don't deal with homeowners or homebuilders. You can have interest in your contract all day long but you don't get it. They know its not worth the litigation. After 2 or 3 months do you want your money or do you want to argue over the interest? Pay me the money already b*tch. What PO's me is when we have to get into our line of credit. If I would ask the bank if they want their money are they want to argue over interest they would just say "We will just have both Thank You"  Most of the work we do the money is pretty much guaranteed to be good, although slow. Sometimes you just have to weigh it out, tack on some if you can, hope for an extra etc. Some are worth it some not. We have fired more than one GC. :yes:


If you dont have good paper to back things up you got nothing....

I have had more than my fair share of liens and law suit over unpaid contracts..... The one thing I learned was paper rules in court..
Also a contract gives you legal reason to hound the hell out of some one for payment..

But never let it get that far.... Tell them I expect to get paid on such and such a date and I will arrive to collect the check .... dont bother mailing it... I like to collect in person. I do this even with my bigger contacts to...until they are trained to have my money on the 15th of every month.

We should start a thread of *How to train your long term customers*


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Its not unpaid contracts, its slow pay but we have an idea going into it. I'm gonna try that tomorrow, I'm gonna march into Metopolitan St Louis sewer district and demand they change their ways. :thumbup: In all seriousness I agree with the good paper (which we have) but sometimes you have to choose your battles. With some of these bigger corporations it's a process, albeit a calculated one on their part.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Piperat said:


> Its not unpaid contracts, its slow pay but we have an idea going into it. I'm gonna try that tomorrow, I'm gonna march into Metopolitan St Louis sewer district and demand they change their ways. :thumbup: In all seriousness I agree with the good paper (which we have) but sometimes you have to choose your battles. With some of these bigger corporations it's a process, albeit a calculated one on their part.


Now gees if you are doing work for the city.... you are going to get paid next time jack your bid a little higher like 2% for every month you think they will be late.

We do work for the city up here too and my bids include BS.... So add BS into your bid calculations.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

I think I will stick to homeowners who pay when service is rendered. 

GC's are more trouble than they are worth. By the time they call us, I wonder how many plumbers they have put under or how many are waiting on past due payments? 

Next time they call maybe I should try something a little different.

"That's right Mr. G.C. The contract is $3,500.00 and we need $4,500.00 up front to start. See, we know you will call saying you are ready for us and we will get there and find out you aren't. The extra $1,000.00 SHOULD cover your poor planning and everything else you overlooked on the job. If all goes well, you won't owe us additional money. If you know what you are doing, of course we will refund your $1,000.00 AFTER you call us no less than 20 times, show up at our office, and threaten to sue to get your money. So, when do we start?"


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Now gees if you are doing work for the city.... you are going to get paid next time jack your bid a little higher like 2% for every month you think they will be late.
> 
> We do work for the city up here too and my bids include BS.... So add BS into your bid calculations.


And how much should we add for general stupidity on the GC's part?


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Now gees if you are doing work for the city.... you are going to get paid next time jack your bid a little higher like 2% for every month you think they will be late.
> 
> We do work for the city up here too and my bids include BS.... *So add BS into your bid calculations.*


Or hope for a Change Order :thumbup:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

PlumbCrazy said:


> And how much should we add for general stupidity on the GC's part?


never under bid yourself.....taking on any job is a gamble....the only thing is I am the house and the house always wins.

Bid high you get it good.... if not so what....there is only so many plumbers and if they all take the low jobs the will not have the time to go for the gravy


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I have to call BS on this .A small GC that builds 10-12 homes at 10- 12 grand a home you are going to threaten and enforce a lien? We must be a little serious. I had 12 builders that did over 200 homes. We knew the builders that paid weekly, bi-weekly and those that paid in 45, 69, 90 days. I also knew when to call for money. It is easier to chase the money then wait for it to arrive by snail mail. Get three or four of these builders and you have 450 grand into your company a year. Sounds great !

You can have a 2% late fee however it is generally not collected due to wanting the future work. We hate chasing the money but love that 4 grand check or 60% /40% with the rough and finish. A contract is only as good as what you are willing to do to enforce it. Old school said he has had no problem when he is upfront yet he has placed liens and gone to court .It does not matter how tough you are with certain people it will happen. Be prepared to follow up with your actions.

It is hard for a small company that is not all in to do many new construction jobs. The company starts to get pulled in too many directions to be effective in new, remodel, and service. Most small companies that get lured into doing a few new homes for a small GC probably will deal with slow pay from that GC. Otherwise the big boys that do quantity would have this GC. If you understand, know and accept this you will understand the slow pay. Been there and have done it in the past.
It is what it is and it is a good payday.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> I have to call BS on this .A small GC that builds 10-12 homes at 10- 12 grand a home you are going to threaten and enforce a lien? We must be a little serious. I had 12 builders that did over 200 homes. We knew the builders that paid weekly, bi-weekly and those that paid in 45, 69, 90 days. I also knew when to call for money. It is easier to chase the money then wait for it to arrive by snail mail. Get three or four of these builders and you have 450 grand into your company a year. Sounds great !
> 
> You can have a 2% late fee however it is generally not collected due to wanting the future work. We hate chasing the money but love that 4 grand check or 60% /40% with the rough and finish. A contract is only as good as what you are willing to do to enforce it. Old school said he has had no problem when he is upfront yet he has placed liens and gone to court .It does not matter how tough you are with certain people it will happen. Be prepared to follow up with your actions.
> 
> ...


Yes like I said I have had more than my fair share of liens and court claims and have not been pushed to that in about ten years ( knock on wood)...but through all of that I learned 

-not to be a push over
- demand payment
- who cares if you never get no more work from some one that is a risk to deals with
- learned that the glory of having lots of work does not mean you have lots of profit
-learned that let the quanity go and move towards quality
-learned to fire clients that are slow at paying and go for the gravy jobs
-learned that there is a sucker born everyday and that I had my turn
-learned Fool me once shame on you .... fool me twice shame on me


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> Yes like I said I have had more than my fair share of liens and court claims and have not been pushed to that in about ten years ( knock on wood)...but through all of that I learned
> 
> -not to be a push over
> - demand payment
> ...


 
You are spot on with the GC's that do not pay and refuse to pay what is owed. I think most are talking about very slow paying GC's that rob Peter to pay Paul and always pay but slowly. Two different animals. Slow pay and non payment. You would not get an argument from me about the non pay GC's and the action that must be taken.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> You are spot on with the GC's that do not pay and refuse to pay what is owed. I think most are talking about very slow paying GC's that rob Peter to pay Paul and always pay but slowly. Two different animals. Slow pay and non payment. You would not get an argument from me about the non pay GC's and the action that must be taken.


back in the day about 1980's we would lose about 70k a year from new construction contractors.... we learned a lot...

My father would get so pissed and me being so young :laughing: would tell him it cost to get an education. 70K a year was the cost of our education.

I must have one of the highest degrees of getting riped off ever.

But now that I have my masters or degree at a cost of 70K a year I am alot smarter.

The way we got over being ripped off was to work more to cover the lost revenue


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Oldschool too funny that is the time I am talking about 1978-1993. That is when I owned and operated my plumbing business. I had 12 builders and I went for a 13th builder. Believe this or not he was the only builder I had a legal contract with and he was the only one who never paid. I did two duplexes for him and had to take this ahole to court. I had a bad feeling about this guy and that is the only reason I had a contract with him.

I discovered he had checks written to him from tenants for rent. The court attached 8 units to pay what he owed. 25% a month from each unit until the two duplexes were paid off.The next thing I knew all subs started to take the same action that I did in order to receive payment. I found out too late that he sold his homes land contract to people who really could not afford the home and he would take the home back after 3-4 years and resell the homes. What a snake.

I always received payment. I had one builder that paid in 90 days. That was his method. This builder’s home was a grand higher than the rest of the builders. I had one builder pay weekly. My bill received Friday I received a check on Monday. He did 50 homes a year. Fantastic builder and he had great subs working for him. From the day the hole was dug it was 90 days and the house was complete. Each trade had one week to complete their portion. No one worked in that house during your week. Don’t screw up and you had their work.

I had one builder who could not visualize the home on a blueprint. He drove the carpenter nuts moving the bathrooms and walls after it was roughed- in. He did 35 a year. This guy paid every two weeks. I was always lucky with the builders I worked with, normally a handshake and the deal is sealed. I would never do that in today’s climate. There would be a contract with each and every home today.

The very first builder I did work for was Carl Yarnovich. This was a fantastic person. He helped me set up my business and taught me how to price, what to collect on the rough-in. I used to split the payment into 3 different pay periods,he had me change it to 60-40. He sat me down and talked to me about buying a warehouse and buying direct paying 5-7 % above cost of the supply house and bypassing the supply houses to keep me in stock. He helped me purchase my shop. He was a great guy and I miss him dearly. He passed away in 1990. He was a great guy and person.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Richard Hilliard said:


> You are spot on with the GC's that do not pay and refuse to pay what is owed. *I think most are talking about very slow paying GC's that rob Peter to pay Paul and always pay but slowly. Two different animals.* Slow pay and non payment. You would not get an argument from me about the non pay GC's and the action that must be taken.


Not really....

When the slow pay rob Peter to pay Paul has his house of cards come crashing down he turns into a non-pay....:whistling2:


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

As long as Paul gets paid......:whistling2:


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Not really....
> 
> When the slow pay rob Peter to pay Paul has his house of cards come crashing down he turns into a non-pay....:whistling2:


 
Some do, a lot do not. It is about the draws and when they arrive for each home. I think we have a feeling about the have nots,the non payers. I have learned there is never an always.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

I haven't had this problem since 2006! You can have them all!!!


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Got our check today. :thumbup:

His regular plumber is still waiting for his $6,000.00 and has been waiting much longer.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Quitting construction work was the best decision I ever made. But if I were to do it again it would be with AIA contracts and a third party administered escrow account. When you get your passed inspection you go pick up your check from the lawyers office. Anything less is just uncivilized.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Judging by all the previous posts in this thread, and by some of the idiot GC's I had to deal with back when I worked for other people, I guess I'm incredibly lucky. All my GC's/builders are awesome!

We get along great and I get paid on time. I've rarely quoted a job for any of them in years (other than fixture prices and ballpark prices for heating or renovations or whatever) - they just tell me the job is ready, go do it.  They know what I charge and don't whine about prices.

And if that wasn't crazy enough for ya, pretty much all the sub-trades around my area cooperate and get along very well too! If I accidentally drill through the electrician's or security guy's wires (I've done it) and I tell him to send me a bill, he does, but it's tiny. He gives me a massive break, and in return I do the same for him when he drills my pipes. Other trades, same thing. Everybody makes mistakes sometimes...


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