# Ive never seen a sink without a...



## natem1986 (Dec 29, 2013)

This is a shoe box cash only bar , cash only 

There's PVC which is illegal in commercial in Mass

And there's no trap! Two's 45's to vertical drain is something else, any thoughts?

- it's Nate


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## huskyevert (Mar 9, 2012)

Maybe a trap in the floor? was it stinky?


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## natem1986 (Dec 29, 2013)

huskyevert said:


> Maybe a trap in the floor? was it stinky?


Slight odor yes. In MA the max distance between fixture drain and trap is 24". From that an inspector has them..

The max distance on 1 1/2" trap to serving drain is 5 ft. 

It's completely suspect as a remodel that was never rough inspected ... If a plumber or owner doesn't choose to do a rough inspection for a remodel then something is in their water as far as I'm concerned


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## natem1986 (Dec 29, 2013)

I don't mean to beat on the old little shoe box BUT it is an eating establishment. As someone that is licensed Ill share it on this platform. Holding such a license it is a privilege and our responsibility is for the health of the systems we repair, maintain and build. 

I refuse to look at hack work and turn a blind eye as if it's on a level playing field.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

As the licensed contractor on site it us your duty to survey the complete plumbing system, then bring up any violations to the building owner. If there is permit on the job that your doing, which you know as a Ma plumber you need a permit for everything , the Inspector can pick up on these things and submit in writing to the owner about said safety/health violations. I deal with this crap on a regular basis.

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## natem1986 (Dec 29, 2013)

plumbdrum said:


> As the licensed contractor on site it us your duty to survey the complete plumbing system, then bring up any violations to the building owner. If there is permit on the job that your doing, which you know as a Ma plumber you need a permit for everything , the Inspector can pick up on these things and submit in writing to the owner about said safety/health violations. I deal with this crap on a regular basis.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Thank for the informative answer. As a novice journeymen it's good to get your relay. It is my understanding that deficiencies are to be addressed , homeowners / commercial owners may be naive to the real burden of addressing. Safety and health wins and represents really the hallmark of our society and carries to pride we have and in our work.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

You are correct, if you don't want to look like the bad guy let the inspector do it. Good Luck.
What part of Ma are you in?

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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

It is no different than noticing a leaking fitting while repairing something else. Let them know about the issue, document their decision on their signed invoice, and move on to the next call with a clear conscience.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> It is no different than noticing a leaking fitting while repairing something else. Let them know about the issue, document their decision on their signed invoice, and move on to the next call with a clear conscience.


 That's not the way it works in Ma. First off there can be no PVC in commercial businesses,second the fact that there is possibly no trap is a little different than noticing a leaking pipe. Both instances are a health violation and should be address immediately . Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## natem1986 (Dec 29, 2013)

This is Boston metro area. Indeed Massachusetts as a commonwealth has a long legacy of favoring with environmental stewardship. This makes our code in fine print. Plumbing is big priority for home owners and business owners. I believe that this understanding has fueled The state itself more than ever in trying to weed out the hacks. Plumbing is now a 5 year program as opposed to 3. 8,000 hours as opposed to 5,000. At the phcc meeting last year it was reiterated that the state board didn't want firemen as part time plumbers and "they wanted to tighten things up."

I believe in Massachusetts the plan is to erase deficiencies, chase out the hacks, and create the model for successful installation for future generations. With all the new technology (opiner, mega press, pex) it's an exciting time..


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Most thorough code as far as I'm concerned. And I think continuing education is a good thing also. Let Ma be the shining star in the plumbing and gas field in this country, all other states should follow suit with our codes.

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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

plumbdrum said:


> That's not the way it works in Ma. First off there can be no PVC in commercial businesses,second the fact that there is possibly no trap is a little different than noticing a leaking pipe. Both instances are a health violation and should be address immediately . Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


I agree the implications of ignoring the problem may be different but your responsibility is the same. Unless your AHJ is issuing badges to Plumbers, there is nothing you can do other than document the problem. Sure you can report it, but you cannot force them to fix it.

"Possibly" no trap is not a violation. It is an assumption.


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## natem1986 (Dec 29, 2013)

plumbdrum said:


> Most thorough code as far as I'm concerned. And I think continuing education is a good thing also. Let Ma be the shining star in the plumbing and gas field in this country, all other states should follow suit with our codes.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


I agree that it is thorough and very clear and can be modeled. I find it very interesting that in a state where there is over 30 universities and colleges that have 2-4 year programs , plumbing is a 5 year deal. The catch is if you choose it at the vocational tech highschools it's 3. Now let me make a big point about the economy that has been holding up Europe, Germany. Germany offers mechanical schools that allow their people to exercise precision and manufacture to sell to the world. Their attitude toward industrial work setting is second to none. 

The commonwealth as we know it, is making the decision to overhaul an attitude by what people encouraged their kids to do, ie become a lawyer a doctor. With a 5 year program, the apprentice has to want it. The results will be a lot of plumbers operating at a high level... If we as 50 states want to continue to inspire and be the last best hope on earth , we have to take on science, technology, engineering and math. I believe that challenge is before us and it's happening in the commonwealth.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> I agree the implications of ignoring the problem may be different but your responsibility is the same. Unless your AHJ is issuing badges to Plumbers, there is nothing you can do other than document the problem. Sure you can report it, but you cannot force them to fix it. "Possibly" no trap is not a violation. It is an assumption.


You want to bet that something can be done? First thing is you start with a registered letter with a time period of when and what needs to be corrected , then if no action is taken there could be possible fines or if it's on gas , disruption of service. Point is it will be corrected.

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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

plumbdrum said:


> You want to bet that something can be done? First thing is you start with a registered letter with a time period of when and what needs to be corrected , then if no action is taken there could be possible fines or if it's on gas , disruption of service. Point is it will be corrected. Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Other than noting it on the invoice and/or reporting it to the AHJ, there is nothing you can do. Unless in Massachusetts Plumbers have enforcement authority.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

AHJ does which is the plumbing inspector.

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## natem1986 (Dec 29, 2013)

plumbdrum said:


> AHJ does which is the plumbing inspector.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Good stuff guys , very informative.


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