# Had it! Now what!



## spudwrench (Sep 15, 2009)

Have seen so many threads on this forum about handy hacks and plumbers with no license, or laid off taking work. I have just had it with these people, they MAY be taking work from me but that is not the issue. Did or do any of you plumbers that said "turn them in" really do it? I am so PSSSST about my brothers and others doing this that I am ready to stake out the box stores and follow these Jerks to their jobs and turn them in. 
When I started my own business, My regional state inspector told me " Do everything legal, or I will make an example out of you". 
I think that we will have a conversation tomorrow in East Central Illinois


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

spudwrench said:


> Have seen so many threads on this forum about handy hacks and plumbers with no license, or laid off taking work. I have just had it with these people, they MAY be taking work from me but that is not the issue. Did or do any of you plumbers that said "turn them in" really do it? I am so PSSSST about my brothers and others doing this that I am ready to stake out the box stores and follow these Jerks to their jobs and turn them in.
> When I started my own business, My regional state inspector told me " Do everything legal, or I will make an example out of you".
> I think that we will have a conversation tomorrow in East Central Illinois


There is no enforcement in Indiana. As a plumber in Indiana I do not have a legal way to turn in handy-hacks. If I want to turn someone in I have to send in a Consumer complaint form, to the State Attorney General, which requires me to lie about my involvement with the hack. 

http://12.186.81.50/ConsumerComplaintForm/ConsumerComplaintForm.htm

So, what can I do. I have written to the local State Rep. but have received nothing, but the standard automated response. I have even suggested on here that the Plumbers of Indiana inundate the State reps. but when rubber meets rode, there is nothing but talk.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I can think of a way that might have an effect...:whistling2:

But it would involve plumbers banding together to accomplish the task...
What are the chances of that?:laughing:


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Redwood said:


> I can think of a way that might have an effect...:whistling2:
> 
> But it would involve plumbers banding together to accomplish the task...
> What are the chances of that?:laughing:


Chances are slim to none. One might think that is what the Union and PHCC exist to help with this problem.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

Redwood said:


> I can think of a way that might have an effect...:whistling2:
> 
> But it would involve plumbers banding together to accomplish the task...
> What are the chances of that?:laughing:


 
I'm in


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Some 20 to 30 years ago we use to have the Ministry of labour stop by every job in town to check trade tickets and safety..... If you were missing any of the above you were kicked from the job site.

Today however I have never seen the minisrty of labour going to any job site.... So what in the hell have they been doing instead of enforcing the work laws.:furious:


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

spudwrench said:


> Have seen so many threads on this forum about handy hacks and plumbers with no license, or laid off taking work. I have just had it with these people, they MAY be taking work from me but that is not the issue. Did or do any of you plumbers that said "turn them in" really do it? I am so PSSSST about my brothers and others doing this that I am ready to stake out the box stores and follow these Jerks to their jobs and turn them in.
> When I started my own business, My regional state inspector told me " Do everything legal, or I will make an example out of you".
> I think that we will have a conversation tomorrow in East Central Illinois


NYC as of September 1 2010 fines for first offenders go to $2500 second offence $5000 http://www.nyc.gov/html/dob/downloads/pdf/Intro_0068a.pdf 

The reason fellow master lic plumbers dont turn in those that arent is because they the ones signing off the jobs there not in competition there in colusion. I even compain to the phone books when they put so&so mechanical & piping under plumbing


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## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

Having an apprentice be foreman of a job is illegal, hell its fraud because your using a JM number that isnt on site,, and it happens all the time


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## tnoisaw (Jun 16, 2009)

I recently posted about this the other day. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/venting-not-plumbing-venting-9293/ 
My dilemma was that I know of many people who would possibly lose their only source of income had I reported what I knew. I am not willing to ruin the lives of good people because someone cheated the system.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

tnoisaw said:


> I recently posted about this the other day. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/venting-not-plumbing-venting-9293/
> My dilemma was that I know of many people who would possibly lose their only source of income had I reported what I knew. I am not willing to ruin the lives of good people because someone cheated the system.


Are you saying you know of people out there plumbing without a license, and you don't want to turn them in?


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## tnoisaw (Jun 16, 2009)

Indie said:


> Are you saying you know of people out there plumbing without a license, and you don't want to turn them in?


 NO...sorta. They have a masters license with zero field experiance. Otherwise, they had someone sign off to let them test. I worked for such an outfit in Florida. No, I will not turn them in because as I said, it could affect too many families ability to pay the bills should they loose their jobs and I would rather live with the knowledge of knowing someone cheated the system rather than the knowledge that I was responsible for many people loosing their jobs.


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## kenneth (Jul 3, 2010)

I am quick on the draw to turn people in. In Texas we have only 7 field members of the TSBPE to go across the entire state and catch "handyman" who do "light plumbing", so any time i see someone advertising this crap i send a written complaint to the board. Calling doesn't do a whole lot, but on paper they HAVE to check in on it.


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## luv2plumb (Apr 30, 2010)

kenneth said:


> I am quick on the draw to turn people in. In Texas we have only 7 field members of the TSBPE to go across the entire state and catch "handyman" who do "light plumbing", so any time i see someone advertising this crap i send a written complaint to the board. Calling doesn't do a whole lot, but on paper they HAVE to check in on it.


 
I believe we have 12 now.....After Ike I ran into one in Galveston and asked how many they had that covered Texas


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## wundumguy (Apr 3, 2010)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> The reason fellow master lic plumbers dont turn in those that arent is because they the ones signing off the jobs there not in competition there in colusion. I even compain to the phone books when they put so&so mechanical & piping under plumbing


It can be a big business in some parts. There's a local plumber that makes this his primary business. Most of it around here happens in the minority communities. A licensed plumber is paid to take out the permit and inspect the work before the city is called for inspection.


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## plumbear (Jun 24, 2010)

In Arizona ( at least where I am) it seems the ROC is more concerned with trying to get licensed contractors for anything they can dream up than going after hacks. They act as if their purpose is putting licensed contractors out of business.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

At least in FL a permit is req'd to install a backflow assembly. That should limit the work to licensed plumbers. If a permit isn't issued, when BF is tested and re-certified the following year, the test report's make, model and serial number won't match the previous year's test report. That's when red flags go up at water utilities dept and they start asking questions.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> At least in FL a permit is req'd to install a backflow assembly. That should limit the work to licensed plumbers. If a permit isn't issued, when BF is tested and re-certified the following year, the test report's make, model and serial number won't match the previous year's test report. That's when red flags go up at water utilities dept and they start asking questions.


thats not the problem the problem is the gc has the work done and then gets quotes on pulling permits and inspection so some (usually older) master plumbers can make money without working. Its a tough line to draw between covering for someone and legalizing a job that was done without permits

BF need permits and (separate from building plans) needs approved cross-connection plans and can even need dep. of health approved plans


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> thats not the problem the problem is the gc has the work done and then gets quotes on pulling permits and inspection so some (usually older) master plumbers can make money without working. Its a tough line to draw between covering for someone and legalizing a job that was done without permits
> 
> BF need permits and (separate from building plans) needs approved cross-connection plans and can even need dep. of health approved plans


So some of those GC's think they're slick. I know a building contractor down here who has been giving me work (he mostly remodels baths and kitchens) and he used to have his men do the plumbing on his remodels. I told him if his guys ever flood someone's home, his insurance won't pay claim because he's working outside the scope of his license. And if dept. of business and professional regulation got wind of it, he could be spanked pretty hard.


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## pdxplumber (Nov 21, 2009)

I just turned in some ******* a couple of days ago.

http://www.portlandplumbingplus.com/

No contractors license, no plumbing business license, no journeyman's license, no boiler license. The enforcement division said his time is about up. $4000 in fines and counting. I'll hold my breath and wait for his web site to disappear. 
:laughing:


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

We turned in a Master Plumber and within 6 months he had his license revoked. 

The State inspectors do a pretty decent job of following up on complaints and catching the offenders, but there is only so much they can do with the manpower they have. IMO most of the local inspectors could care less.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

pdxplumber said:


> I just turned in some ******* a couple of days ago.
> 
> http://www.portlandplumbingplus.com/
> 
> ...


 
Here in Florida, Craigslist is loaded with ads from "plumbers." It's against the law to advertise oneself as a plumber without a license, but I don't think the authorities are able to keep up.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Associated Plum said:


> We turned in a Master Plumber and within 6 months he had his license revoked.
> 
> The State inspectors do a pretty decent job of following up on complaints and catching the offenders, but there is only so much they can do with the manpower they have. IMO most of the local inspectors could care less.


 
I'm curious. If he is a master plumber, what was he turned in for? Not pulling a permit? Whatever it was, it must've been pretty serious to warrant his license being revoked.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Probably Pimping out his license/permits for unlicensed hacks:furious:


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> I'm curious. If he is a master plumber, what was he turned in for? Not pulling a permit? Whatever it was, it must've been pretty serious to warrant his license being revoked.


Shoddy work.

The client tried to get him back to finish the remodel, but he would not return her call so she called us.

There was so many code violations that she as advised that the State Plumbing inspector needed to look at this. She made a few phone calls and that afternoon the Mayor, local plumbing inspector and the plumber showed up.

The following week the state inspector came out and told the plumber to correct the problems and give him some time to complete the problems. After numerous attempts to get the plumber back and the inspector telling him to pull off the job he was on or suffer the consequences.

Both he and the local inspector lost their license and the plumber could have gotten away with just a slap on the wrist.

http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/pro...ProtectiveHealthCodes/Documents/PlumbLine.PDF


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## falloutman22 (Sep 15, 2010)

*To warn or not warn.*

I recently lost a bid job to someone who bid about half of my bid. When I checked in with the home owner about a week later after submitting my bid she told me that someone had come in about half of what I had estimated which threw up red flags in my head. I staked out the job and found out that it was one of my previous apprentices I had fired due to a dirty drug test. When I let him go I warned him to not practice the trade he had partially learned without getting a job with another contractor. I contacted the inspector and he was busted the next day. The home owner called me to finish the job with the appropriate permits. Come to find out she found him advertising plumbing service on Craigslist. I now have contacted other plumbers in my area and we have all agreed to set up a sting on these craigslist plumber wannabees.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*very good idea*



falloutman22 said:


> I recently lost a bid job to someone who bid about half of my bid. When I checked in with the home owner about a week later after submitting my bid she told me that someone had come in about half of what I had estimated which threw up red flags in my head. I staked out the job and found out that it was one of my previous apprentices I had fired due to a dirty drug test. When I let him go I warned him to not practice the trade he had partially learned without getting a job with another contractor. I contacted the inspector and he was busted the next day. The home owner called me to finish the job with the appropriate permits. Come to find out she found him advertising plumbing service on Craigslist. I now have contacted other plumbers in my area and we have all agreed to set up a sting on these craigslist plumber wannabees.


 
I would like to get our inspectors to set up a sting in Indianapolis to catch all the hacks that advertise on Craigs list...... They are illegal across the board from electricians, plumbers, furnace men, roofers, tree people........:laughing:

actually, when your ex druggie apprentice got busted, what kind of fines were thrown at him.....??? probably just a slap on the wrist.......


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

pdxplumber said:


> I just turned in some ******* a couple of days ago.
> 
> http://www.portlandplumbingplus.com/
> 
> ...


Have you seen the announcement on his website?
Have no fear he is a man of god...
http://www.portlandplumbingplus.com/news/53-licensed-plumbers-portland-oregon.html
He's not going to rip anyone off...:whistling2:


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Let me get this straight, Portlandplumbing plus is not even licensed to do plumbing?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*he scares me*



Redwood said:


> Have you seen the announcement on his website?
> Have no fear he is a man of god...
> http://www.portlandplumbingplus.com/news/53-licensed-plumbers-portland-oregon.html
> He's not going to rip anyone off...:whistling2:


 
that looks a little too wackey to me..

makes you wonder if he would start quoteing scripture while he is doing plumbing work for you....

no thanks,,,, 
just plunge the damn toilet and PLEASE 
get the hell out of here.


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## FEDguy (May 19, 2010)

I agree with you. I'm fortunate to have work and be able to provide for my family. I understand that others have to provide for their families too. If they don't do a good job then the market will weed them out.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*you know he will skate*



pdxplumber said:


> I just turned in some ******* a couple of days ago.
> 
> http://www.portlandplumbingplus.com/
> 
> ...


 
all he really has got to do is hire a master plumber and
work under that guys masters lisc.....might cost him more than he is willing to pay to keep someone on full time
better yet if he can find some old 89 year old plumber out there that will lend him his card,,,, he is back in business

lots of contractors do that in this state

he does sound a little strange...... and it looks like he has a pretty good idea who did this to him too...

watch your back.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Ron said:


> Let me get this straight, Portlandplumbing plus is not even licensed to do plumbing?


Uh Huh... :laughing:


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

pdxplumber said:


> I just turned in some ******* a couple of days ago.
> 
> http://www.portlandplumbingplus.com/
> 
> ...



Thank you. :yes:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Well at least the gentleman in Portland w/o the license is stating that in his advertissment. He sounds like a stand-up kind of guy who is just trying to pay the bills...like so many of us.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> Well at least the gentleman in Portland w/o the license is stating that in his advertissment. He sounds like a stand-up kind of guy who is just trying to pay the bills...like so many of us.


That announcement wasn't there until after he got busted...:laughing:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Redwood said:


> That announcement wasn't there until after he got busted...:laughing:


Ah so...didn't know that. So in the meantime he advertises w/o the proper credentials. Cuz you know people are going to call him regardless of him having a license or not. C'est la vie (that's life -in french).


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## spudwrench (Sep 15, 2009)

I started this thread and have enjoyed every ones input. Now then, in IL, we have to do continuing education every year. I am going to get educated on 10-1-10. We have a new regional inspector (because of past retirements), and I am just aching to ask him what "we" can do about the hacks, out of work folks, and cubs doing our work without ins.,contractors lic., etc. So what does the PZ think that I should do? Bring this up in private, or stand on my tip toes in front of the entire group and say..........WTF...WTF WTF?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

spudwrench said:


> I started this thread and have enjoyed every ones input. Now then, in IL, we have to do continuing education every year. I am going to get educated on 10-1-10. We have a new regional inspector (because of past retirements), and I am just aching to ask him what "we" can do about the hacks, out of work folks, and cubs doing our work without ins.,contractors lic., etc. So what does the PZ think that I should do? Bring this up in private, or stand on my tip toes in front of the entire group and say..........WTF...WTF WTF?


No Guts... No Glory....:laughing:


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

The sad thing about this is he is a member on here, if it was not for the fact he is drain cleaning legally, I'd ban him for breaking the laws in the State I work in.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

spudwrench said:


> I started this thread and have enjoyed every ones input. Now then, in IL, we have to do continuing education every year. I am going to get educated on 10-1-10. We have a new regional inspector (because of past retirements), and I am just aching to ask him what "we" can do about the hacks, out of work folks, and cubs doing our work without ins.,contractors lic., etc. So what does the PZ think that I should do? Bring this up in private, or stand on my tip toes in front of the entire group and say..........WTF...WTF WTF?


Stand up and let 'er rip- respectfully.

Here' what you'll hear:

- we rely on you guys to let us know about these guys

- we're short handed due to budget restraints


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## spudwrench (Sep 15, 2009)

Colgar said:


> Stand up and let 'er rip- respectfully.
> 
> Here' what you'll hear:
> 
> ...


You won the prize. I did not even have to man-up, the program started with the talk about what we have been discussing. Without naming names, because who knows, the Champ. and Peo. regional boys were there.I thank them both, and frankly do not know how they put up with the political wrangling that is going on in our state. Let me know if during your cont. ed , that you heard what I think was said today. 1 mil$ taken from our program(this is the last quarter) to be spent on "other" projects. Not to cut anyone, but illinois replys only please. Boycott the fees we pay? I dunno.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

spudwrench said:


> You won the prize. I did not even have to man-up, the program started with the talk about what we have been discussing. Without naming names, because who knows, the Champ. and Peo. regional boys were there.I thank them both, and frankly do not know how they put up with the political wrangling that is going on in our state. Let me know if during your cont. ed , that you heard what I think was said today. 1 mil$ taken from our program(this is the last quarter) to be spent on "other" projects. Not to cut anyone, but illinois replys only please. Boycott the fees we pay? I dunno.


I had my cont. ed. this past tuesday evening. It was done by your Champ. inspector T. P.

The subject never came up. But I've heard it all before. An employee of mine's deceased FIL was a state inspector. We had some fairly heated discussions about this subject.

My last experience with a state inspector:

I was putting my boat away in a friend's barn out in a small country bumpkin town. I see a concrete block building going up next door and two kids stringing out pipe for the underground. Leave a voicemail for Mr. state inspector with the address and brief discription. He calls me back 2 days later and asked me if I could go back out and take some pictures for him because "it might be a while before i can get back down there."

I won't say i've given up, but my forehead can only be get beaten against the wall so many times and I've got a good flat spot started.


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## Txmasterplumber (Oct 2, 2010)

I'm in, long as it's not price fixing.....

check this out.... from the Texas State Board of Plumbing Examiners websit: ashttp://www.tsbpe.state.tx.us/common/FY2010.pdf

go down about half way... the Master getting fines are because they let there license lapse..... the state has been doing sting ops for some time now... and damn glad to hear it...


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

EPMarketing said:


> Within following the user agreement for this forum I completely understand why people get upset when others are not doing what is right. Make sure you have the correct licensing is a great statement but sadly not everyone follows these things. I've seen this not just in plumbing but so many other business avenues.
> 
> 
> Plumbers
> ...


hey office hack are you even a plumber? I think not ..where is your intro or you just start plugging your crap into everyone's web sights?


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## Eddy k (Jan 30, 2015)

Good topic, big problem here in New Mexico.


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## BowmanPlumbing (Aug 6, 2016)

tnoisaw said:


> I recently posted about this the other day. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/venting-not-plumbing-venting-9293/
> My dilemma was that I know of many people who would possibly lose their only source of income had I reported what I knew. I am not willing to ruin the lives of good people because someone cheated the system.


So, never mind the "Good People" that picked up a phone and called what they thought was a licensed professional, and arranged to have them perform plumbing work on what is possibly their single biggest investment? I have been behind many of the "Good People" you speak of, and they leave quite a bit of ruin in their wake. Good people don't mis-represent themselves as something they are not. Home owners insurance won't cover the damage these people do, and with no license, the jack leg performing the work won't even have a policy. 
If you consider that the Home Owner has worked hard for what they have, and weigh that against the fact that a non licensed hack has zero right to present themselves as qualified to perform plumbing contracting or work, you will see that there really is no dilemma. There is simply right, and wrong. 
I'm sure you are a good man, and not trying to pick a fight, just pointing out that you are only taking half of the picture under consideration.


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## BowmanPlumbing (Aug 6, 2016)

Dang! Sorry folks, it has been a long week, and I didn't realize how old all of this was. Haven't been around in a while.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

BowmanPlumbing said:


> Dang! Sorry folks, it has been a long week, and I didn't realize how old all of this was. Haven't been around in a while.


*As the original post was in 2010 -- when you go to page 1 and read some. I wish a few names listed were still here.

THE GOOD OLD DAYS OF THE ZONE.
*


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

spudwrench said:


> Have seen so many threads on this forum about handy hacks and plumbers with no license, or laid off taking work. I have just had it with these people, they MAY be taking work from me but that is not the issue. Did or do any of you plumbers that said "turn them in" really do it? I am so PSSSST about my brothers and others doing this that I am ready to stake out the box stores and follow these Jerks to their jobs and turn them in.
> When I started my own business, My regional state inspector told me " Do everything legal, or I will make an example out of you".
> I think that we will have a conversation tomorrow in East Central Illinois


Sounds and looks good on paper but unless you are ready to put your name on dotted line and then they know who you are,also NOTHING will be done by the inspectors or authority having jurisdiction.absolutely nothing,hate to say it but it is a waste of time,and then these idiots are looking for a little payback,so then you have to watch your back for nothing:furious: been there done that,know what I'm talkin bout esp. in a small town/area


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

sparky said:


> Sounds and looks good on paper but unless you are ready to put your name on dotted line and then they know who you are,also NOTHING will be done by the inspectors or authority having jurisdiction.absolutely nothing,hate to say it but it is a waste of time,and then these idiots are looking for a little payback,so then you have to watch your back for nothing:furious: been there done that,know what I'm talkin bout esp. in a small town/area





spudwrench said:


> Have seen so many threads on this forum about handy hacks and plumbers with no license, or laid off taking work. I have just had it with these people, they MAY be taking work from me but that is not the issue. Did or do any of you plumbers that said "turn them in" really do it? I am so PSSSST about my brothers and others doing this that I am ready to stake out the box stores and follow these Jerks to their jobs and turn them in.
> When I started my own business, My regional state inspector told me " Do everything legal, or I will make an example out of you".
> I think that we will have a conversation tomorrow in East Central Illinois



Tell you what guys, you are partially correct. I am in the St. Louis metro area. Around here most plumbing inspectors are part time and still work. I have a regional State IDPH office in my town and have known the last 5 or 5 State Inspectors. John Popov would hammer anyone he caught working without a license. Currently the State has 2 guys to cover at least a 13 county area, this also includes Schools, Nursing homes, prisons, day care centers.
I happen to be lucky as I am a full time municipal inspector, so I am around in my jurisdiction all day. I don't hesitate if I find someone working without a license to file a complaint with IDPH and stop the job, the first step is for IDPH to send a certified letter telling the person to cease and desist plumbing without a license. It explains that the letter is not any type of admission of guilt, they have to sign it and send it back. If they are caught again they can be turned over the the States Attorneys Office for prosecution. This is the point it can go bad, in the past they figured there was not enough money in it to charge them. Now that the fines are up that may well change.

Since I also perform other inspections, we watch for roofers, re-modelers, additions and anything else we would require a permit for or in case of roofing an Illinois License to do so.

Outside of myself and IDPH in the area, no other plumbing inspector is full time. SO it gets harder for them to catch people, and they would need to see the person performing plumbing themselves or the customer to be ready to testify (guess how that goes most of the time, unless the customer is ticked off). So it is not as easy as you may think to keep up things like this. I do agree that in cases of smaller towns the AHJ simply doesn't want to take the time. They may be lazy, not be able to get paid (and we all work for free right) can't catch them during the day since they work also.

As was stated others need to step up and report problems. I used to have guys gripe to me about people or items, but not take the time to follow through with it.


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