# Side jobs



## canuck92 (Apr 1, 2016)

Just because someone does a side job doesnt meen there threads gets closed ?

Look its a grey area, if you a 3rd 4th year apprentice an are swaping a toilet or faucet running a fridge line...have at it.

1.)If your employer doest allow it...then dont.

2.)Dont use company material or equiptent without permission.

3.) Dont take on anything your not comfortable with.

4.) Do not wear company shirts, hats etc.

5.) Be honest with the customer if your an apprentice.

For me, my employer does not care what we do in are off time as long as its not taking his clients.

We have all done cash jobs at somepoint, and besides apprentices usually take the side jobs nobody else wants...phuck trailer parks, most the people wont ever pay the bill.

The reason i wanted to post this, if a registerd apprentice joins the forum the last thing id want to do is drive them away within 3 hours.
Hndy hacks are another story.

Like to see a few new people join an stick for a while.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

canuck92 said:


> Just because someone does a side job doesnt meen there threads gets closed ?
> 
> Look its a grey area, if you a 3rd 4th year apprentice an are swaping a toilet or faucet running a fridge line...have at it......



You all need to keep in mind that *many areas/states don't have licensing requirments. *Therefore the idea of an "apprentice" doing side jobs is not just okay, it is to be expected. In places like that it's necessary to keep in mind your limits and that is how I think we should approach the subject. We wouldn't turn away a "real plumber" in a place with no license requirements so why would we turn away apprentices doing side jobs? 



*People do much riskier work off the books/without a license all the time. Felling trees, building whole frickin houses, fixing cars* that carry explosive liquid and can go 80mph on a regular basis. Yes, plumbing takes skill and can impact peoples health and also carries physical risk, but it's really no worse than many other trades that are not regulated in the least.



*I think the easiest line to draw is at their skill level. If they've just been setting fixtures for a year than changing a toilet for someone is relatively mundane.* If they've never worked with threaded pipe and electrical lines than maybe fixing a water main is something they should avoid.


.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

skoronesa said:


> You all need to keep in mind that *many areas/states don't have licensing requirments. *Therefore the idea of an "apprentice" doing side jobs is not just okay, it is to be expected. In places like that it's necessary to keep in mind your limits and that is how I think we should approach the subject. We wouldn't turn away a "real plumber" in a place with no license requirements so why would we turn away apprentices doing side jobs?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not to mention liability insurance....


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

OpenSights said:


> Not to mention liability insurance....



I think if you're hiring scrubs to fix the largest investment you own than you must also assume all liability for your poor judgement :wink::vs_laugh:




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## canuck92 (Apr 1, 2016)

I agree there is a line to draw, shutting of water to a building, 20 plus trailers an having to have it back up in running asap and not knowing what to buy or what to fix is getting ing over your head.
When i was an apprentice i just did fixture swaps an hose bibbs or change a sump pump


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

before I personally had my masters license I did side work, but I had full insurances and I had a master plumber file any permits I needed....so there is a difference between properly doing side work or being a semi hack and not having your bases covered...legally I couldnt call my company a plumbing company untill licensed, so I incorporated as a construction company and told my insurance broker I mostly will do plumbing and the insurance coverage showed that, once I got my masters license I re incorporated as a plumbing company..
so if you do side work with no insurance or coverage...I consider that half azzed..yeah some places dont have any requirements for licenses or insurance and that just breeds hakers left and right and then the people deserve what they get if they hire a hack...


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## jakewilcox (Sep 3, 2019)

I think having insurance is key. Around here you can do work up to $600.00 with no license. But you need to protect your client. You can do a lot of tasks for up to $600.00, so there is a lot of opportunity for plumbers and others to do side work. 

The company I work for is cool with it to a limited degree. I think they accept that its going to happen and try to mitigate the damage. It is one way of keeping the crew happy, but it also serves to keep tabs on what is going on an what jobs people are doing.

This all circles back to insurance. If you are going to do this at all, you need it. For me, that's one of the biggest differences between hack work and not. And believe me, we have some HACKS around here; in particular the GCs that are doing plumbing. 

FWIW, I have a side business (as ShtRns corrected me at one point). I do some work, but not a ton. Most of it involves gas valves and gas lines; I also do other stuff. But due to the liability, not just with money, but with respect to our client's health and safety, it is really important.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

jakewilcox said:


> I think having insurance is key. Around here you can do work up to $600.00 with no license. But you need to protect your client. You can do a lot of tasks for up to $600.00, so there is a lot of opportunity for plumbers and others to do side work.
> 
> The company I work for is cool with it to a limited degree. I think they accept that its going to happen and try to mitigate the damage. It is one way of keeping the crew happy, but it also serves to keep tabs on what is going on an what jobs people are doing.
> 
> ...





insurance is to protect YOU.....unless you want to lose everything you own in a lawsuit..even if you win it will cost 10s of thousands in legal fees for any large lawsuit....just leave a tool out on the floor for a home owner to fall over and get injured or set the house on fire or a flood....
smaller issues of damage can be worked out with the home owner for compensation..but once an injury occurs it can run into the hundreds of thousands depending on the injury, and in todays litigative times..everyone wants to sue for a big payday...


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## jakewilcox (Sep 3, 2019)

I have a little different point of view on insurance. First, its required to be licensed. Second (this comes from lots of lawyers in my family), I have an LLC set up, you can incorporate your business, which if respected properly (legal term) will isolate your liability in civil matters (not criminal). That is what protects me. The LLC can loose it shorts and my personal assets are isolated. Also, if I did not have insurance, to recover anything against me would be pretty tough. I own my house, but in most legal cases people don't loose their houses (or at least that the lawyer family telling me that). They can put a judgment lien on the title, but that doesn't do anything until I sell. 

If something really went wrong, like I blew up a house because of a gas leak or I flooded a house with sewer and it got moldy and someone in the house got black mold death, I simply don't have the financial means or the clean up skills to deal with that. So, that is where the insurance comes in. For me, I guess a client could sue me, but I would have them file a clam on my insurance FAR before I got sued. This is why insurance protects the client. It also protects me, but an LLC or incorporation is far better protection. 

Again. Lots of lawyers around me (probably not a good thing).


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

jakewilcox said:


> I have a little different point of view on insurance. First, its required to be licensed. Second (this comes from lots of lawyers in my family), I have an LLC set up, you can incorporate your business, which if respected properly (legal term) will isolate your liability in civil matters (not criminal). That is what protects me. The LLC can loose it shorts and my personal assets are isolated. Also, if I did not have insurance, to recover anything against me would be pretty tough. I own my house, but in most legal cases people don't loose their houses (or at least that the lawyer family telling me that). They can put a judgment lien on the title, but that doesn't do anything until I sell.
> 
> If something really went wrong, like I blew up a house because of a gas leak or I flooded a house with sewer and it got moldy and someone in the house got black mold death, I simply don't have the financial means or the clean up skills to deal with that. So, that is where the insurance comes in. For me, I guess a client could sue me, but I would have them file a clam on my insurance FAR before I got sued. This is why insurance protects the client. It also protects me, but an LLC or incorporation is far better protection.
> 
> Again. Lots of lawyers around me (probably not a good thing).



I have plenty of friends that are attorneys too, in my area its criminal to be in business and not have liability insurance so you enter the criminal side right away.., im incorporated for the protection, and the company has very limited assets, so there is not much to be taken in a lawsuit if it stays civil, in todays times and you can ask your family lawyers, nothing in court is 100%, especially if its a jury trial...just look at the crazy awards for smoking, baby powder ..etc.....since you have lawyers in the family, the cost of hiring one shouldnt be too bad, but if you have insurance its all covered...
and it come down to peace of mind...I know some people that walk that fine line, but also have no personal assets and are pay check to paycheck, so you cant get blood from a stone..I like to sleep well at night and not have to look over my back when I work...its a business expense..so if your in business..thats the way the cookie crumbles..


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## Kstewart61 (Sep 6, 2020)

I lived off of side work for over 40 years it out food on the table and diapers on the kids. When I started as a apprentice I was getting 2.50 am hour barely enough money to get buy. So over the years people asking me I made a mint doing side work. Some of these plumbing company's are making a mint and also over charging customers now a days. Some are charging 2300 for a 49 gallon gas swap out and that is totally a rip off but people are paying it I just don't get it. 

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Kstewart61 said:


> I lived off of side work for over 40 years it out food on the table and diapers on the kids. When I started as a apprentice I was getting 2.50 am hour barely enough money to get buy. So over the years people asking me I made a mint doing side work. Some of these plumbing company's are making a mint and also over charging customers now a days. Some are charging 2300 for a 49 gallon gas swap out and that is totally a rip off but people are paying it I just don't get it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk


where are you located? I never heard of a 49 gallon gas water heater...


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> where are you located? I never heard of a 49 gallon gas water heater...



That's because many of them are given a _"first hour rating" _of X even though the actual physical volume is less. He is probably stating the _"first hour rating"_. For instance I have an electric water heater with a _"first hour rating"_ of 80 gallons but the physical volume it can actually hold at one time is 60 gallons.


This happens because the heater can heat the cold water as it enters. The _"first hour rating"_ is based on a minimum supplied water temperature of 120F.



.


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## Kstewart61 (Sep 6, 2020)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> where are you located? I never heard of a 49 gallon gas water heater...


Typo 40 I live in NJ started my career in PA. 

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk


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## VictorPlumber (Feb 26, 2019)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I have plenty of friends that are attorneys too, in my area its criminal to be in business and not have liability insurance so you enter the criminal side right away.., im incorporated for the protection, and the company has very limited assets, so there is not much to be taken in a lawsuit if it stays civil, in todays times and you can ask your family lawyers, nothing in court is 100%, especially if its a jury trial...just look at the crazy awards for smoking, baby powder ..etc.....since you have lawyers in the family, the cost of hiring one shouldnt be too bad, but if you have insurance its all covered...
> and it come down to peace of mind...I know some people that walk that fine line, but also have no personal assets and are pay check to paycheck, so you cant get blood from a stone..I like to sleep well at night and not have to look over my back when I work...its a business expense..so if your in business..thats the way the cookie crumbles..


I heard if you are incorporated and doing work by yourself you still liable with your personal assets. If you have employees working for your corporation than your corporation liable with corporation assets. So if you are one man show incorporating doesn't make any difference - you still liable with your personal assets. I am in Toronto, Ontario, Canada - maybe in USA it is different.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

VictorPlumber said:


> I heard if you are incorporated and doing work by yourself you still liable with your personal assets. If you have employees working for your corporation than your corporation liable with corporation assets. So if you are one man show incorporating doesn't make any difference - you still liable with your personal assets. I am in Toronto, Ontario, Canada - maybe in USA it is different.


wrong......................maybe in communist canada you are, but not in the USA......you can be criminally liable as a person if you are incorporated....but not civilly .....


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

VictorPlumber said:


> I heard if you are incorporated and doing work by yourself you still liable with your personal assets. If you have employees working for your corporation than your corporation liable with corporation assets. So if you are one man show incorporating doesn't make any difference - you still liable with your personal assets. I am in Toronto, Ontario, Canada - maybe in USA it is different.


I heard a that RUMOR too since they can seize the person who has the name of the incorporation. What bailiff do they can seize your assets before going to trial so that way you have no idea.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Illinois your not legal to do any plumbing work until you first have your plumbing license (so nothing legally for an apprentice), then by State law a licensed plumber must also carry a "plumbing contractors license" which is basically proof of insurance and workers comp and a bond with the State. Both licenses have to be renewed annually.

Get caught, your license can be suspended or revoked. A licensed contractor allowing their apprentice to do side work, same thing.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

GAN said:


> Illinois your not legal to do any plumbing work until you first have your plumbing license (so nothing legally for an apprentice), then by State law a licensed plumber must also carry a "plumbing contractors license" which is basically proof of insurance and workers comp and a bond with the State. Both licenses have to be renewed annually.
> 
> Get caught, your license can be suspended or revoked. A licensed contractor allowing their apprentice to do side work, same thing.


Any fines associated with those?


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## RichardBull (Jan 7, 2021)

Our plumbing code defines the definition of “ plumbing “. Changing a faucet or replacing a faucet washer isn’t considered as plumbing as our plumbing code defines it. 

If a license isn’t required then I’m all for a person putting food on their table.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

RichardBull said:


> Our plumbing code defines the definition of “ plumbing “. Changing a faucet or replacing a faucet washer isn’t considered as plumbing as our plumbing code defines it.
> 
> If a license isn’t required then I’m all for a person putting food on their table.


Most of us on this forum see the line as being drawn between those who choose to do inferior plumbing work and do not perform it as their main proffesion, as opposed to those of us who do this for a living and have high standards and accountability.

Different states and locales have different laws and some areas require no licensing or permitting at all. Much simpler to draw the line where it matters from a quality of work aspect.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Legally I cannot change the plumbing system. I refer that out now.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

OpenSights said:


> Legally I cannot change the plumbing system. I refer that out now.


But can you change your underwear?


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> But can you change your underwear?


He can but he won’t lolololo


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

skoronesa said:


> But can you change your underwear?


Why change if not dirty or leaking?


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> But can you change your underwear?


why do you want to know? you want a used pair to sniff with your best buddy biden..or the hoe....


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