# Lead and oakum



## PlumbusC37 (Oct 19, 2018)

Hey all I'm starting my first pack and pour underground and was wondering if you guys had any tips and tricks you wanted to share. Anything is appreciated!


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Wow talk about a lost art even 25 years ago! All sorts of ferncos for any situation...


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## PlumbusC37 (Oct 19, 2018)

The city of Philadelphia is stuck in the past. To the best of my limited knowledge we are allowed to use mg couplings only if it is an exisiting building. New construction still requires lead and oakum below ground. No hub is allowed above ground.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

And I thought I heard everything, one state was allowed to use pex only starting last year. We've been using that since 1992.

Then lead packing in 2018??? The last joints like that were done like that was in 1952.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

PlumbusC37 said:


> The city of Philadelphia is stuck in the past. To the best of my limited knowledge we are allowed to use mg couplings only if it is an exisiting building. New construction still requires lead and oakum below ground. No hub is allowed above ground.


you are not aloud to use rubber tight seals on under ground?


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## PlumbusC37 (Oct 19, 2018)

I could be wrong but l believe the rule is ty seals are allowed 10ft away from a building. Philadelphia has it own codebook and its confusing.


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

I can probably count on two hands the number of lead joints i've poured for small repairs in 11 years. I've never had to submit one to a water test though.

Good luck! :jester:


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

For pex, many states allow it now and have for a number of years. It is very common.

My best tip for pouring lead joints is tall leather boots, ridgid cotton/canvas pants like new carhartts, and long sleeves. Obviously ppe like leather gloves, safety glasses, etc. Lead has a very high thermal capacity so even a small amount will hold a lot of heat energy.

Do you own or have access to a full set of caulking irons? I believe there are about 5-9 basic styles for different angles that are hard to reach.

Breathe deep!


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## canuck92 (Apr 1, 2016)

How is philly that stuck in the past, they have a bad batch of abs glue ? Must take forever to rough in a house.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

PlumbusC37 said:


> Hey all I'm starting my first pack and pour underground and was wondering if you guys had any tips and tricks you wanted to share. Anything is appreciated!


I have caulked and poured my fair share of joints..dont overheat the lead and pack your runner tight to the hub and on top tuck a piece of oakum where the runner is held by the clamp to prevent the lead from pouring out the gap and it fills to the top..


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## JohnnieSqueeze (Mar 23, 2016)

cut a notch in your packing iron to 1” that will give you a quick eye for how much oakum you need. Usually 3 times around? 

wear goggles and gloves 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

canuck92 said:


> How is philly that stuck in the past, they have a bad batch of abs glue ? Must take forever to rough in a house.


Please tell me you don't bury abs.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> Please tell me you don't bury abs.


Yes.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> Yes.



Oh geez. I have fixed more broken abs lines than clay. The plastic gets brittle and cracks just from the weight of the ground. I have seen it crack in nice rock free soil. At least with clay the roots don't grow in until something else cracks it. With abs just the roots can force it enough to crack.


My favorite was this "ROOTPRUF" abs pipe I had to replace. About 30' of it was all cracked up like someone had been hammering on it. They call it root proof but it was only an 1/8" thick instead of 1/4". Only about 25 years old too.


I believe in schedule 40 PVC, the superior white pipe!


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Right now on HD's website they list ABS for 22$ and PVC for 23$. You save a dollar on 10 feet. Is it really worth it?


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> Oh geez. I have fixed more broken abs lines than clay. The plastic gets brittle and cracks just from the weight of the ground. I have seen it crack in nice rock free soil. At least with clay the roots don't grow in until something else cracks it. With abs just the roots can force it enough to crack.
> 
> 
> My favorite was this "ROOTPRUF" abs pipe I had to replace. About 30' of it was all cracked up like someone had been hammering on it. They call it root proof but it was only an 1/8" thick instead of 1/4". Only about 25 years old too.
> ...


That's how it done here, I didn't invent it or implement it. Never seen bad abs underground. The old style abs compared to cell core was solid thick and after 30 years still looks like new. Now thin pvc called sdr I think is laid underground, very brittle and easily breaks.

Maybe different brands had a difference in quality or chemistry?


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## canuck92 (Apr 1, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> Tango said:
> 
> 
> > Yes.
> ...


Yea are abs up hear is pretty dam durable. The sdr/ bds pipe is bittle drop the pipe in the mud an it cracks. It has to be different where your at.
I dig up alot of broken/ corroded cast and most of the time its all newer mj pipe the old school cast made back in the day was very well made. Most recently the cast stack in this appartment building had a bunch of holes in it. Could crush it with my hand.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

I think the sdr in canada is way different than the green sdr pipe in the usa..our sdr is almost 1/4 inch thick and tough as nails, you can beat it with a sledge and it just laughs at you...I have seen thin walled pvc or some sort of plastic that sounds like what your describing as being brittle, its not used for plumbing or not in my area...


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I think the sdr in canada is way different than the green sdr pipe in the usa..our sdr is almost 1/4 inch thick and tough as nails, you can beat it with a sledge and it just laughs at you...I have seen thin walled pvc or some sort of plastic that sounds like what your describing as being brittle, its not used for plumbing or not in my area...


We have both, thick pale green SDR that is super tough used underground for commercial main drains. We also have thin walled white PVC that's like 1/8" thick used only in underground in residential. We call it SDR but I think its BNQ. Between the 2 choices for houses I use ABS. I just don't know how cellcore ABS will hold up.

I know a guy who would pour massaging essential oils down the sink drain and less than a year and all the cellcore cracked and leaked. I think the cells absorbbed the oils like a sponge. The old ABS was still good.

PVC/BNQ DRAINAGE PIPE 
SDR 28 (white) : Sanitary sewer pipe
SDR 35 (green) : Storm sewer pipe


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

The only brittle ABS I have seen underground is from extreme temperatures. IE water heater boosters under commercial sinks.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Tango said:


> That's how it done here, I didn't invent it or implement it. Never seen bad abs underground. The old style abs compared to cell core was solid thick and after 30 years still looks like new. Now thin pvc called sdr I think is laid underground, very brittle and easily breaks.
> 
> Maybe different brands had a difference in quality or chemistry?


I spoke without remembering a job I had this spring, 2 cracked hubs. I think it may have been improperly compacted underneath and over.

The pipe was fine 2 fittings were cracked.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Under a slab I wouldn't like it but if it were up to me I guess abs would be legal. Outside of a foundation the only pipe I am okay with is schedule 40 white pvc or better(aka 80 or cpvc). Where I am abs is only legal above ground and schedule 40 pvc is used under slab and underground. Sdr 35 is legal buried outside of a foundation but most guys just use sch40 from the house to the street/septic tank. Sdr 35 is always used for leech fields.



I don't like sdr 35 even though it is commonly used by municipalities here. It isn't quite 1/4" in thickness. It isn't usually brittle when new but can get a bit stiff after a while. Usually on private property sdr is used for drainage and gutters which would be fine except they don't glue it and then it pulls apart and I get sent to snake dirt and rocks. Then when I tell them to call the landscaper that put it in I seem like an ahole.


Cellular core abs does seem a bit more durable than the solid stuff but around here the supply houses almost never have the solid stuff anyway. I will say that I like the charlotte abs with the pvc lining. I don't think it's better than schedule 40 pvc though and again the price is negligible.


Yes abs is a bit easier to work with/cut but that just means it isn't as strong. But, I can heat and peel out an old pvc nipple from a hub, try doing that with abs. You'll end up needing a pipe shredder. And as it has been pointed out pvc is less susceptible to chemical solvents in a residential setting than abs. For the marginal price difference it just seems obvious to me that sch.40pvc is the way to go. Unless it's an uphill battle getting your supply house to carry it.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> For the marginal price difference it just seems obvious to me that sch.40pvc is the way to go. Unless it's an uphill battle getting your supply house to carry it.


We don't have any above ground pvc for residential. None of it in stores or supply houses only abs. We will have cast iron stacks in high rise condos and gray pvc stub outs or XFR.

Commercial building will have CI, PVC or XFR.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

*The best of both worlds co-extruded PVC...ABS*



skoronesa said:


> >snip>
> 
> This pipe was made by Genova and was called SUPER V
> 
> ...


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

fftopic:


Original poster was asking about lead and oakum. 

Please start a new thread if you guys want to discuss the topic of ABS pipe.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tommy plumber said:


> fftopic:
> 
> 
> Original poster was asking about lead and oakum.
> ...



How do you guys feel about poured lead vs lead wool?


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> How do you guys feel about poured lead vs lead wool?


lead wool sucks, it doesnt hold or lock in anything and you will pound your fingers to get it packed in, but it does have its place where pouring hot lead would be dangerous to the plumber or a finished area it would be unpractical to melt hot lead and pour...not much call for it with todays technology( rubber seals and what not) but a skill worth having for those wacky once in a while repairs..


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## Florida Plumber (Aug 27, 2017)

skoronesa said:


> I believe in schedule 40 PVC, the superior white pipe!


Hey man why does it have to be a white thing, black pipe matters :vs_laugh:


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## Florida Plumber (Aug 27, 2017)

Also make sure not to sweat in to the lead pot


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## mtfallsmikey (Jan 11, 2010)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I have caulked and poured my fair share of joints..dont overheat the lead and pack your runner tight to the hub and on top tuck a piece of oakum where the runner is held by the clamp to prevent the lead from pouring out the gap and it fills to the top..



Winner winner, chicken dinner!
I still have all of my/Dad's old driving, yarning irons, including right/left offset irons.


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## GlensidePlumber (Jun 21, 2016)

Philly allows PVC on residential, 1-4 families, under 3 stories. 

Our code is in the process of being updated with the help of the ICC. The unions are a major driving factor here.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

GlensidePlumber said:


> Philly allows PVC on residential, 1-4 families, under 3 stories.
> 
> Our code is in the process of being updated with the help of the ICC. The unions are a major driving factor here.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


usually the unions want the longest taking method to do anything to drive up the amount of labor it takes , so union members can be employed longer on jobs...


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## GlensidePlumber (Jun 21, 2016)

Yep

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## PlumbusC37 (Oct 19, 2018)

Sorry fellas , been real busy. That underground is done. It sucked , my hands got destroyed as expected. Thanks for all the input though, its much appreciated.


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