# Union Problem?



## chicago_plumber (Feb 18, 2010)

Need some advice.

I was working for an union contractor. The last year things have been slow. The contractor employs four union laborers that are not licensed plumbers. My employer has sent these guys out every day doing plumbing work while I was getting about 15 hours/week. So I went to the union. The union sent their BA's and caught and carded these guys several times. Now the union audit began and they were coming down hard on the contractor. I got a call from my employer telling me to go on unemployment since there is no work coming up. But the four laborers are still working there and I lost my job. The union knows there are laborers there but no one did anything to help me and I'm still out of a job.

What does anyone think of this?


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I employ laborers to do menial tasks such as digging, backfilling, tamping etc.

You filed a grievance? 

Just to be clear. A real paper grievance. Calling the BA doesn't mean ****.

If they are doing plumbing, Call the inspector and let him bust them.


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## chicago_plumber (Feb 18, 2010)

Laborers are doing the plumbing work. I actually was doing the digging on some of my jobs.

I did file a formal letter of grievance but nothing has been done about it yet. That was just last week though. I don't know the whole process, never done this before.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

You prolly already know this but, you kinda burned a bridge. You may get the laborers sent back to the hall but, you might as well have the scarlet friggin letter hangin around yer neck.

I'm not trying to bust balls. I'm just giving you my opinion.


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## ranman (Jan 24, 2010)

our union is doing the same type of things. the company sent a 2nd year to the shop to pick up a kitchen finish and then he went to install it un supervised. he should not have been on the job alone or using his truck. 
some of the guys asked at the hall about this, and all they said was just be happy you have a job. yea its true, but what is the point of the union? i have all my certs and if they can get a cheaper guy with the certs i`m gone. they call it a tight budget. 

i have only been in the union for almost 3 years. i`m not sure i will be there for long.

JMO


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

Matt said:


> You prolly already know this but, you kinda burned a bridge. You may get the laborers sent back to the hall but, you might as well have the scarlet friggin letter hangin around yer neck.
> 
> I'm not trying to bust balls. I'm just giving you my opinion.


I kinda have to agree here. If things are slow, you're getting 15 hrs a week, its better than none? If you think you can get more hours elsewhere, maybe you should go job-hunting. Obviously what your employer was doing isn't right or perhaps legal, but from a monetary standpoint, it's kinda smart, especially if they're not idiots and can do the things you can do only for cheaper. If you like your job, it might be best to try and ride it out until things pick up and you start getting more hours.

Unions = no good.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Alan said:


> Unions = no good.


You are painting with a pretty broad brush there Picasso


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Alan said:


> I kinda have to agree here. If things are slow, you're getting 15 hrs a week, its better than none? If you think you can get more hours elsewhere, maybe you should go job-hunting. Obviously what your employer was doing isn't right or perhaps legal, but from a monetary standpoint, it's kinda smart, especially if they're not idiots and can do the things you can do only for cheaper. If you like your job, it might be best to try and ride it out until things pick up and you start getting more hours.
> 
> Unions = no good.





Matt said:


> You are painting with a pretty broad brush there Picasso


Pretty wild night on the Zone, wouldn't you say?


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

Matt said:


> You are painting with a pretty broad brush there Picasso


Well I apologize if I crossed a line with that comment, but I haven't heard any stories about good things the unions have done. :blink: 

I suppose it's probably not worth debating, so with permission I say lets just leave it at my own personal opinion, and leave the arguments by the wayside.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Alan said:


> Well I apologize if I crossed a line with that comment, but I haven't heard any stories about good things the unions have done. :blink:
> 
> I suppose it's probably not worth debating, so with permission I say lets just leave it at my own personal opinion, and leave the arguments by the wayside.


 
You didn't cross any lines. No reason to apologize. I don't mind a good debate one bit.


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## Shuanvon (Aug 5, 2009)

I have to throw my 2cents in on this one........We all develop opinions based on personal experience and I have seen ZERO reasons for anyone to be involved with a union(primarily local 68) unless you would prefer to never really strive to be a true craftsman but get paid equal to the men and women that have actually earned what they receive(probably deserve more). I spent 6 years in this local and have never witnessed a so called "Brotherhood"! If they gave a damn about the working man it might be different, but I havent seen it yet


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

dont forget to pay those dues,,,, the fatcats at the top need you


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Damn folks, am I the only guy on the PZ that defends union labor?

I have a 6:30 meeting with some fat cats. I'll rant later.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Matt said:


> Damn folks, am I the only guy on the PZ that defends union labor?
> 
> I have a 6:30 meeting with some fat cats. I'll rant later.


 If i had a meeting with union fat cats I would be defending them too.....you want to come back from the meeting dont you?:laughing: What if they called you and said the meeting has changed locations to the boat dock for a latenight fish trip out on the lake....just you and the boys:laughing:


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Matt said:


> Damn folks, am I the only guy on the PZ that defends union labor?
> 
> I have a 6:30 meeting with some fat cats. I'll rant later.


 I am not in any union, but I do not have any issues with them what so ever.


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## ranman (Jan 24, 2010)

Matt said:


> Damn folks, am I the only guy on the PZ that defends union labor?
> 
> I have a 6:30 meeting with some fat cats. I'll rant later.



i like being union but the company's are aloud by the union to not man the job according to the contract.

i heard today that most of the jobs that are being bid are for provisional journeyman and 1st year apprentices and labors .

instead of trades journeyman and silked apprentices 

the only journeyman on some jobs is the foreman 



i was a rat plumber for 17 years and i wanted to be union for the benefits and pride of a high quality job. but now its.who can they get thats cheaper than me to do the job. i had a better feeling of job security in the non union side.

my next move is self employed.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

Hmmm... Union/Non-Union.

Not touching that one with a ten foot pole! :laughing:

Seriously though, I've never been unionized in this trade and I've gotten a pretty much 60/40% mix of opinions from unionized colleagues I've met over the years.
Here at least all the shops are non-union and treat their ppl really well. Shops that haven't have all folded.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it! :thumbsup:


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## BCT (Feb 15, 2010)

I've worked with some former union guys and they were by far the most useless people I have ever run across. All of them seemed to be only able to do one thing. If they could do gas they couldn't do water or drainage. If the could do drainage they couldn't do gas or water. If they could do water they couldn't do gas or drainage. They never lasted long enough to make it to the finish so I'm not sure about that. Even what they could do they couldn't do it well or at a reasonable pace. One that stands out in my mind right now was one guy spending 8 hours to pour and caulk 3 6" joints, the kicker was they were loose fitting so he could put them where ever he wanted and I ended up taking them apart and redoing them because they were all crooked. He was the same guy that would hide in the porto for an hour waiting for the coffee truck to show up. I asked all of them why they got out of the union and every single one said the same thing "I always get laid off because they have no work" Hmm I wonder why THEY never had any work for these particular guys. I don't have any problem with the union or their work but I would never join one because It just wouldn't feel right paying someone (dues) so I can work.


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## 3/4 MIP (Dec 1, 2009)

*Unions*

I come from on of the heaviest unionized areas of Illinois. My feelings are there good for bigger companies. They have the manpower (manpower pool / bench) to take on big work. We're a small shop (3). I don't believe union shops could compete with our prices. Yes, I'd like to make a few dollars more (union scale for me is $32 an hour) but am happy to still be getting at least 30 hrs a week. 

The other thing I liked about the Unions is their apprentices go to the "hall" once a week for school. School is on my own time and dime.

My boss is as opinionated as they come. He doesn't care too much about some of the Union plumbers he's seen, but always gives credit to them for keeping the wage scale up in which we benefit too.

3/4


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## Everflow (Feb 1, 2010)

Last year we had to cut back on our labor costs. (get rid of people).

So I sat down to think about who it was going to be, and came up with a few reasons to pick certain guys.

1-The guy that is always late to work.
2-The guy that is always in MY office wanting a raise.
3-The guy that always complains about everything.
4-The guy that just gets on my nerves.

Looking at this.... it made my dissensions a whole lot less gut wrenching.

These 3 union plumbers were digging a hole and broke there shovels. Then called their boss and told him they broke their shovels. He replied lean on each other..... till I can get you new ones.

True story.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I am union and proud to be, but our benefits package is getting unsustainable. The union isn't really a brotherhood anymore. I take pride in every job I do. A lot of guys just want the paycheck, but don't want to earn it.


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## spudwrench (Sep 15, 2009)

Matt said:


> Damn folks, am I the only guy on the PZ that defends union labor?
> 
> I have a 6:30 meeting with some fat cats. I'll rant later.


No Matt, you are not. But let me make this post clear. We had a huge building boom in my area. There was no way that those projects could have been financed or completed without union labor. I was a foreman on one of the biggest jobs in the state at that time. Yes, there were slackers, but also people that were very skilled. We had over 100 travelers here from all over the midwest, now we probably have 30 local hands on the bench. Union or not, I hope that we have all learned a valuable lesson during this downturn. YOU CAN ONLY RELY ON YOURSELF! I am convinced that Matt has figured that out, as many of the other members here. By the way,Matt, why didn't you think of ILLINI PLUMBER, you are close enough.


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## KCplumber (Dec 31, 2009)

Verry interesting.... neither side is getting to testy YET ......


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## dankman (Nov 19, 2009)

I'm not a union guy but I do think they serve a purpose and keep the non-unionized force on their toes.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

What's good about being a union shop you ask? I will try to type it out. 

1. If I get slow, EVERYBODY get's laid off and I have zip on my conscience.

2.The union local takes Joe Blow off the street, teaches him a trade, makes him highly skilled, get's him 90 - 100 thousand dollars per year in pay. In return, they get $1.15 an hour from his hourly package. 

3. Back to me. If I want to do a 3 million dollar repipe on a school, where am I gonna find 6 plumbers, 4 fitters, 2 laborers, and 2 insulaters instantly off the street to man and finish the job. I have to know I can do this BEFORE bidding. If I bid a job, which involves handing them a cashier's check for 5% of my total bid as a surety. I better be damn sure I can DO the job. I know I can man the job being a union contractor.

4. What kind of retirement do non-union guys have? Social security?:laughing:
A 30 year plumber get's around $3,000 per month in retirement benefits. On top of social security.
And don't kid yourself, most plumbers do not have the brainpower to set money back for retirement.

5.How bout health insurance for the entire family? I bet a very low percentage of non-union plumbers have ADEQUATE health care coverage.

6. You will get the best on the ground working experience you can have.
You can work in places that most folks just dream of working in. Powerplants and refineries are some really cool places to work.

This is turning into a novel so I will close with this, You union guys, when times were good and you were making 100 G's. Where did that money go? You blew it didn't ya. You thought it would never end. Guess what, it's over for now baby. Learn from this time. Don't live beyond your means when times are good.

I would love to know how many pick-ups and Harley Davidsons have been repo'd from plumbers in the last 14 months.

BTW, today is the 1 year anniversary of the stimulus plan. THERE he fixed it!!!:laughing:

Matt, OUT......:thumbup:


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## AndersenPlumbing (Jan 23, 2010)

3/4 MIP said:


> The other thing I liked about the Unions is their apprentices go to the "hall" once a week for school. School is on my own time and dime.


Not when I went. I had to go after work twice a week and one Sat. a month. 

501 apprentices do go to school one day a week. For their first 2 years. I think you will see a change comming very soon for them. They started doing that because the school was to full at night. Now that the new apprentice numbers are so low, I'll bet they go back to nights.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

My family business,{which I had no ownership in, but all the responsibilities that go along with it} that I worked for, for 17 yrs went union about 10 yrs after I started there, to get the bigger jobs. I hated it.
The thing that burned me up the most, was that every guy, or gal, we hired from the hall was paid the same. I'd have a guy that could help me with layouts, reading prints, forsight, better options on materials I could use,ect... & was good with hands on plumbing too. Then I would get a guy that was useless, and had to give them both the same paycheck at end of week.
The good plumbers are there because of the pay & benefits.
The useless lazy ones are there because they have protection, & politics. IMO.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Don The Plumber said:


> The useless lazy ones are there because they have protection, & politics. IMO.


Lay off the lazy ones. They can be laid off for "cause" 

In my book cause is "I don't like your shoes, go home"

Stop employing the lazy ones and they will give up and go away.


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

I just have one question. If the union is suppose to be a brotherhood, Then why do union contractors hire non union plumbing companies to do their work. I have worked on many union run jobs where they would hire us to do the plumbing and we were non union. They also hired other trades that were non union to do the work. We have several union shops in the area why did they not hire them to do the work. Doesn't sound like much of a brotherhood to me especially when you have union plumbers sitting at home with no work and non union plumbers are overrun. I have nothing against the union I am just curious.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Bollinger plumber said:


> I just have one question. If the union is suppose to be a brotherhood, Then why do union contractors hire non union plumbing companies to do their work. I have worked on many union run jobs where they would hire us to do the plumbing and we were non union. They also hired other trades that were non union to do the work. We have several union shops in the area why did they not hire them to do the work. Doesn't sound like much of a brotherhood to me especially when you have union plumbers sitting at home with no work and non union plumbers are overrun. I have nothing against the union I am just curious.


 I installed 6 retro fit sloan automatic urinal valves in the electrical union hall back in the 90's. Our whole shop couldn't believe they called us since we were not union. I'll swear to that on a stack of Bibles..Its true.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

If it were clearly proven that unions were responsible for beatings, deaths, extortion and intimidation..would you still be proud to be a member..or do you disassociate yourself from that aspect of the brotherhood.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

In the mid 90's I worked on several jobs for a non-union shop that I believe were union jobs in the Boston area. At the time they were called "prevailing wage" or "rate" jobs. We got paid about 2-3 times our normal pay, and some of these jobs would last a year or more. I never really understood why, or how it all worked. I was getting excellent pay so I didn't ask many questions.


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## Shuanvon (Aug 5, 2009)

Matt said:


> What's good about being a union shop you ask? I will try to type it out.
> 
> 1. If I get slow, EVERYBODY get's laid off and I have zip on my conscience.
> 
> ...


 
Dude, you are on a different planet than I am 'cause around here if Joe Blow is on the street- he should probably stay there:whistling2: And call me crazy, but if you don't have the manpower to handle a 3 million dollar job, then you should probably keep your butt on jobs that are more your size:yes: Also, that pension crap doesn't hold water. Have you looked into what they are doing with your pension lately!!!!!!! Let me narrow it down for you, its called "unfunded liability". Translate----"They spunt it yo" Don't generalize PLUMBERS by saying that we all don't know how to handle our money. I should be insulted, but I don't have time:thumbsup: BTW do you know how much union money went to get him in office, so that he could fix everything?:no:


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

If you've never been part of one...you won't understand anyway...there's no point to arguing about it...


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## Shuanvon (Aug 5, 2009)

Airgap said:


> If you've never been part of one...you won't understand anyway...there's no point to arguing about it...


 
I agree, but arguing is kinda fun:jester:

Besides, if someone with an STD tells you that you should wear a condom......You might listen!:yes: Same thing with people who have been involved with a union.:laughing: You might listen:whistling2:


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Shuanvon said:


> I agree, but arguing is kinda fun:jester:
> 
> Besides, if someone with an STD tells you that you should wear a condom......You might listen!:yes: Same thing with people who have been involved with a union.:laughing: You might listen:whistling2:


It's always non union people bashing unions, and union people defending them. That pretty much says it all...

I will take your advice on the condom use though....:thumbsup:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

*Welcome to Crossfire*



Shuanvon said:


> Dude, you are on a different planet than I am 'cause around here if Joe Blow is on the street- he should probably stay there:whistling2:


Off the street is a figure of speech. It doesn't take a genius to grasp what it means.



Shuanvon said:


> And call me crazy, but if you don't have the manpower to handle a 3 million dollar job, then you should probably keep your butt on jobs that are more your size:yes:


Let me get this straight. I am supposed to constantly employ 20 people just in case I land a big contract:laughing: I'll get right on it sport. That sounds like a real money making proposition.




Shuanvon said:


> Also, that pension crap doesn't hold water. Have you looked into what they are doing with your pension lately!!!!!!! Let me narrow it down for you, its called "unfunded liability". Translate----"They spunt it yo"


Please quote me a factual basis for this statement. Union plumbers get a statement that shows them where their money is invested and how it is performing.



Shuanvon said:


> Don't generalize PLUMBERS by saying that we all don't know how to handle our money. I should be insulted, but I don't have time:thumbsup:


First off, I never said ALL plumbers don't know how to manage their money. I don't really care if you are offended or not. The fact is, in my experience most blue collar folks do not know how to manage their money or plan for their future.




Shuanvon said:


> BTW do you know how much union money went to get him in office, so that he could fix everything?:no:


No.

I'm glad we had this talk. 

Sincerely,
Matt


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

I found bad in the union as well as bad in non union.
Ive found that a union shop can hire and fire all day long as many as they want. They can call the hall get 2 or 3 more plumbers tomorrow.
The non union shop has more trouble finding replacements, so they seem more concerned keeping jobs , because if they lay off, they might have trouble manning the next job.
As far as lazy or unskilled help, Yea you find them both places.
Coming to work late or missing days by a long shot non union got them beat, You are down the road so quick on a union job!!
Pay on the job. Union pays about double around here. (if you got a job)

The big jobs the hospitols, Industrial, etc still all union. 

A lot of union contractors dont want labors on the job a first year apprentice can dig a lot cheaper.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Getting paid 2 -3 times your normal rates for the duration of a particular job sounds like you are referring to a prevailing wage scale job. Typical of Federal and State projects.

Correct me if I am wrong union guys, but wasn't this put in place so that unions could compete on the large scale jobs?

As for keeping plumbers on staff to man multi-million dollar jobs, non-union shops do it all the time. It's that much more pressure to land work because if you cannot, you are laying someone off and not sending them back to be utilized by the next contractor.

On the flip side, I see the value in unions. It's a shame that it runs a lot like our government, put the wrong people in powerful positions and you will find a lot of corruption. Obviously, there is room for improvement in the union just as it is in the private sector. :yes:


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

PC I think your right, I don't know why I thought those jobs were somehow union related.


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## spudwrench (Sep 15, 2009)

Can you really fund a project that pays wages and benefits for 6 plumbers, 4 fitters, 2 laborers, and 2 insulators with a bond? On a 3 mil repipe? Im just sayin' It's one hell of a lot more than $1.15/hr. WARNING DRUNKEN CONTENT ABOVE!


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## spudwrench (Sep 15, 2009)

WARNING! DRUNKEN CONTENT BELOW!
I just pulled out my file that included the current wage and benefit package for U.A. plumbers. I thought about posting it for all of you to see, but did not think that I wanted to be:
A: Drawn and Quartered
B: Racked
C: Stoned---Really not a bad way to go.
D: I'm Sorry---AKA Tiger Woods
In my mind, no matter who we are, what we do, what rules that we work under, we all have our skills to sell. We are a team. Together We Achieve More! That may sound foolish to some of you, but what the hell. The tide is falling. Just my last rant on this pro/con post. Honey, get me another beer!:yes:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

spudwrench said:


> Can you really fund a project that pays wages and benefits for 6 plumbers, 4 fitters, 2 laborers, and 2 insulators with a bond? On a 3 mil repipe? Im just sayin' It's one hell of a lot more than $1.15/hr. WARNING DRUNKEN CONTENT ABOVE!


A bond is a surety. Nobody gets paid anything from it as long as I complete the job. 

There are draws along the way to keep me funded as the job progresses, that's where the money comes from. 

The local I normally work in has a $1.15 per hour working assessment that goes directly to the hall from each member. 

Hope you had fun last night:thumbup:


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

Matt said:


> Lay off the lazy ones. They can be laid off for "cause"
> 
> In my book cause is "I don't like your shoes, go home"
> 
> Stop employing the lazy ones and they will give up and go away.


 I agree with you 100%. But back then I was alot younger, and intimidated easily. I was so overwhelmed with the size of job at hand, that I would kiss these guys butts, that were lazy & useless, just to keep bodies on job. Also back then the hall was almost empty, so you would get bottom of the barrel workers on new call ups. The 1st time I complained to B.A. he actually threatened to send people out that were worse. And they know who is good and who is not.
I had the one guy I call useless, that refused to sign the safety meeting logue that I had there. I had a safety meeting this one morning, "after their break time" about back supports, and then gave him one. This guy walks over to me and pulls the waist of my pants out, and says" you aint f'n wearin one, so I aint wearin one" and tosses the back brace in the trash can.
Today I would handle it alot differently.I'm not pro or anti union, I'm just glad I'm not union now. I like the work I do now alot better, but the experience I did get with the union jobs was priceless. Just wouldn't want anything to do with it today.


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## AndersenPlumbing (Jan 23, 2010)

Matt said:


> Lay off the lazy ones. They can be laid off for "cause"
> 
> In my book cause is "I don't like your shoes, go home"
> 
> Stop employing the lazy ones and they will give up and go away.


:thumbsup:

The best part about this economy is that the lazy ones or useless ones (hall trash) will find other sources of income and hopefully not come back in better times. When they get sent back now due to lazyness or lack of knowledge, they have some explaining to do. I think its great! Problem is that I have about 400 ahead of me on a list!


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## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

Matt said:


> You are painting with a pretty broad brush there Picasso


 
I would use a spray rig.


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## Hyper Piper (Nov 29, 2008)

I've got some serious problems with unions.... they are the dielectric ones made in china.


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

BCT said:


> I would never join one because It just wouldn't feel right paying someone (dues) so I can work.


:thumbsup:

Paying yourself to sit at the shop and wait for the phone to ring? I can make the same amount of money at home.


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## ranman (Jan 24, 2010)

oh don`t get started about dues 20$per month and deaths 5$ per death on avg. 100$ for 3 months and union deductions of 5% to pay for insurance.

we pay to work. i say that and i`m union lol


but for right now i have work and i will be busy for a long time.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

IMHO, unions work well as long as the economy isn't in jeopardy. It's been a long time since I was in one, but things were dying and they couldn't keep me working. The journeymen in my area were all working out of the area, and you know it takes more money to live away from home.

But before that, everything was gravy. Companies were making money, jobs were plentiful. 

That was ~40 years ago. Today, there are so many guys on the bench that I think they outnumber the workers. Things get tight, union politics get nasty. 

I'm happier doing service work and being on my own because my own personality doesn't allow me to work well with others. My dad kept his union card as he went to estimating and expediting, and retired pretty well off. (He only lived to enjoy it for about two years.)

I think unions can be a very good and even a necessary thing, but once the economy crashes, they have a hard time keeping things together.

And I don't think it's fair to blame Obama. The economy isn't healed, but it surely isn't bleeding as badly as it was, and every bit of recovery was hard-fought.


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