# artistry gone?



## Ansel (Sep 14, 2008)

On February 6th of this year I took a position with a large mechanical company headquartered in Mississippi. They also have a division in Georgia which actually is the division I now work for. We are presently constructing a veterans outpatient clinic, and are now installing the underground. As the group is from Georgia they are not familar with all the ammendments to the ipc that are a part of the North Carolina code. I am a journeyman and a holder of a class one plumbing contractors license in North Carolina. I try to assist with advice concerning issues of code. I find that the normal statement to my comments is something like, "well that isn't important." Which at present seems to center on pitch of pipe. They are willing to sacrifice minimums to maintain elevation. And so far the inspector has given them the pass,with the exception of one section about ten feet in length which was 4" pvc that only had 1/16th pitch. And they made me fix it. Even though I had protested long and hard about the subject all along. I realize of course that times have changed and I am not nieve. But it was the pride in craftsmanship, even the artistry of plumbing that made the trade really appeal to me. Have we as a trade reached the place where we really just do not give a rat's --- about our work. Just throw it in it does not matter if it is right , just get it done. Perhaps my complaining to you my peers may even seem juvinile to some of you. Perhaps you would ridicule me as a whiner. But I really want to knoow from you guys, is this really where we are as a trade? And what does it mean for the future? When the younger people who might enter our proud profession, will they emulate our BS laziness, or is there hope that they might give a ---- and rescue us fron our apathy? What I see scares me. Or perhaps it would be better stated it saddens me. When you see something done by a craftsman who cares about his craft it can be inspiring. When you stand back and look at an installation you performed can you sleep at night ? Can you say I did that and feel pride? That is the plumbing I want to be involved in. How about you?


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

May I ask the name of the mech. Company out of miss.?, you can pm it to me if u don't want to share it in the open.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

Apathy. It's rampant everywhere.

The materials we work with and the modern methods of joining along with costs and deadlines often take precedence over workmanship. Add to that inspectors who don't know what they should and tradesmen who aren't too far behind, and you end up with situations like to describe.

It is too bad. 

I have to frequently remind myself and drill my apprentice in this regard. There have been times where it's been tempting to let something I don't like go but, I do try to maintain a level of pride and have him or myself cut it out and redo it.


p.s. You're last name isn't Adams is it?


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

MarkToo said:


> p.s. You're last name isn't Adams is it?


Nope not even close :laughing:

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

And everyone will agree with you tonight and tomorrow they will go forth and string miles of crap assed pex and whatever fast cheap and easy garbage that has flooded the market.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

i agree 100%

now I gotta find my pex and CSST cutters, big day tomorrow


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

GREENPLUM said:


> i agree 100%
> 
> now I gotta find my pex and CSST cutters, big day tomorrow


Don't froget the flow-gaurd glue

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## Plumbergeek (Aug 16, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> And everyone will agree with you tonight and tomorrow they will go forth and string miles of crap assed pex and whatever fast cheap and easy garbage that has flooded the market.


We can only install what the customer is willing to spend! 
It would be great for our trade if copper/galvanized & cast iron were the only available material's which would cut out a majority of the DIY'ers. As far as the OP, here in Georgia you will find that the inspectors got there job from Ol' Uncle Bob who has been with the county Building Dept. since 1940 and really has no clue. And the majority of tradesmen here couldn't pass a drug test with someone else's piss. Confounding that the profit margins are so razor thin and lowest bid gets the job it's a wonder the place doesn't collapse.
I still take pride in my work, whether I am running CPVC (only Flowguard), Pex (Uponer), or Copper (sweat/ProPress)
I saw years ago where this trade was headed (down) and I wanted to change that perception for the better, I believe my customers would agree that I have.
Sorry for the rambling, I'm watching JerseyLicious :thumbup:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Plumbergeek said:


> We can only install what the customer is willing to spend!
> It would be great for our trade if copper/galvanized & cast iron were the only available material's which would cut out a majority of the DIY'ers. As far as the OP, here in Georgia you will find that the inspectors got there job from Ol' Uncle Bob who has been with the county Building Dept. since 1940 and really has no clue. And the majority of tradesmen here couldn't pass a drug test with someone else's piss. Confounding that the profit margins are so razor thin and lowest bid gets the job it's a wonder the place doesn't collapse.
> I still take pride in my work, whether I am running CPVC (only Flowguard), Pex (Uponer), or Copper (sweat/ProPress)
> I saw years ago where this trade was headed (down) and I wanted to change that perception for the better, I believe my customers would agree that I have.
> Sorry for the rambling, I'm watching JerseyLicious :thumbup:


We don't do pex, csst, flexi supplies, plastic tubular traps, plastic toilet flanges, AAV's, cpvc, sharkbites, pro-press or any of that cheap, fast and easy crap and as a result we are the most expensive plumbing company in the area by a lot and......We still have 13 plumbers working 40 hour plus weeks. Screw customers that don't want to pay for quality. Let the HACKS deal with the cheap assed deadbeats.

You guys knew that was coming didn't ya?


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## ironandfire (Oct 9, 2008)

Gotta love it.


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## Plumbergeek (Aug 16, 2010)

That's great yall can use copper everything there, it won't fly here on new construction. I do strictly service work and if I bid a re-pipe using all copper I would be chapter 11 quickly!
Besides, I can only repair what's there, PVC DWV & CPVC, and all the rest of that stuff you call crap. :whistling2:
And I'm not talking about track houses either, these are 300K & up.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

ironandfire said:


> Gotta love it.


Nice S trap.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

love2surf927 said:


> Nice S trap.


 

I started laughing so hard when I read that I coughed up a big glob of green phlegm in my lungs. I'd post it but it'd take away from your statement.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

There is nothing wrong with PEX that's installed correctly. The problem is when you run it like a plumber. You can't make it straight like copper. If you use talons and tack it to at least every other joist it can look nice. Use its strengths to tuck it up and out of sight.

Uponor's system is a good joining method. I can make a nice looking PEX installation. It takes almost as long as copper. Your savings come from material cost.

After all, if it's the artistry you're complaining about, making PEX look good is an art.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Your vision of what's good looking an my vision of what's good looking are light years apart. :laughing: but then again, folks opinions of what's good food and what's garbage are the reason McDonalds ET.AL. are in business.

If anyone slapped pex in my 1/2 million dollar house I would tear it all out and stuff it up their .........well, you know.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Plumbergeek said:


> That's great yall can use copper everything there, it won't fly here on new construction. I do strictly service work and if I bid a re-pipe using all copper I would be chapter 11 quickly!





Plumbergeek said:


> Besides, I can only repair what's there, PVC DWV & CPVC, and all the rest of that stuff you call crap. :whistling2:
> And I'm not talking about track houses either, these are 300K & up.


That's because you are not selling yourself or your company and you are allowing the customer and your competition to set your standards and pricing. I once though like you too and after many years of playing catch up and circling the drain I finally smartened up and let quality be my guide, not price and certainly not time. You can either swim with the minnows or feed with the sharks. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Besides, I can only repair what's there, PVC DWV & CPVC, and all the rest of that stuff you call crap. :whistling2:
> And I'm not talking about track houses either, these are 300K & up.
> 
> That's because you are not selling yourself or your company and you are allowing the customer and your competition to set your standards and pricing. I once though like you too and after many years of playing catch up and circling the drain I finally smartened up and let quality be my guide, not price and certainly not time. You can either swim with the minnows or feed with the sharks. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


Would you also insist that all electrical wiring be run in hard tube conduit. Properly done pex looks as neat as a good electricians work. With all the talk about superior materials and whatnot, what actually makes copper superior to anything else for water distribution? Other than aesthetics of course, which are subjective. Does it last longer in all water conditions? It has a stronger tensile strength true, but for water distribution this is a non issue. If anyone brings this up than I would assume you braze all of your joints instead of solder, because that's a much stronger joint. A quality PEX system more than meets the needs of domestic hot water distribution. 

I've seen a rep demonstrate a peice of pex with a coupling in the middle in a press designed to pull it apart from both ends. Similar to a rig designed to test welds. The Wisrbo system joints held until the physical pex tore. Also, it's less susceptible to braking from freezing and a kink will right itself with a bit of heat application. I'm sure someone will post a picture of a pex joint pulled apart by freezing water, but have you never seen a copper joint pulled apart as a result of freezing. I have. 

There must be some real concrete reason I'm missing other than " it can be ran square and looks better". If copper is truly a superior product, why? In use longer isn't a valid reason either. Pex hasn't been around as long as copper so of course it hasn't been in use as long. We shouldn't abandon new technology because it's easier or doesn't look good, which as I said before is subjective.


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## Plumbergeek (Aug 16, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> That's because you are not selling yourself or your company and you are allowing the customer and your competition to set your standards and pricing. I once though like you too and after many years of playing catch up and circling the drain I finally smartened up and let quality be my guide, not price and certainly not time. You can either swim with the minnows or feed with the sharks. :thumbsup::thumbsup:




:laughing::laughing::laughing:! Really? Since you believe that copper and iron are the only materials that should be used in plumbing then I guess all of the advancements made since the 1900's in this industry are all worthless crap :laughing:
Do you unstop sewers with a flat rod still? I am happy that in your area you can use these materials and your customers can afford them. Apparently your customers are the Heinz/Kerry & Old man Bush seeing you are in Maine. 
I have
*NO* problem using the materials that are available now, whether it be Pex, CPVC, PCV. I guess I'm just a progressive plumber and your not.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

So, back to the OP.....:whistling2:


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## Plumbergeek (Aug 16, 2010)

SewerRat said:


> So, back to the OP.....:whistling2:


What was the OP?:laughing:
Oh yea, He ran for the door and hasn't responded! I guess we scared him off!


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Plumbergeek said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing:! Really? Since you believe that copper and iron are the only materials that should be used in plumbing then I guess all of the advancements made since the 1900's in this industry are all worthless crap :laughing:
> Do you unstop sewers with a flat rod still? I am happy that in your area you can use these materials and your customers can afford them. Apparently your customers are the Heinz/Kerry & Old man Bush seeing you are in Maine.
> I have
> *NO* problem using the materials that are available now, whether it be Pex, CPVC, PCV. I guess I'm just a progressive plumber and your not.


Is the word really progressive?? Does buying into the whole cheap, fast and easy thing make one progressive or..........ummmmmmm .....lazy? 
Advancements? Ah yes, AAV's, plastic...everything and ummmmmm faster cheaper and easier along with lower wages, lower profits, less work, less pride and less respect for the license. We didn't have to go here. We could have stopped this crap a long time ago but we let salesmen and manufacturers steam roll us into allowing this to happen to our profession, our craft. And guess what, you get what you pay for and I KNOW what's happening to a whole lot of you guys out there trying to make a living every day and having a damn hard time doing it. Some of it is because of the economy indeed but a big part of it is because we allow the public, contractors, manufacturers and salesmen to dictate what we will use and how much money we will make. It's not the product that is the issue as much is its the slap it in quick and cheap attitude that has led contractors and homeowner to degrade what we do. You say you can't compete without using pex because contractors are not willing to pay for copper. Well just how in hell did we ever get to the point where some friggin contractor is telling us what we are going to use and how much we are going to charge for it? I'll tell you how. That would be because some other hack plumber decided to hack your balls off and sell cheap, fast and easy and when he did he screwed every other plumber in a 500 mile radius so now you all sell cheap fast and easy. So tell me my friend. Just how low are you willing to go? Where will you draw the line. You do know that they are working on getting flexible DWV piping approved? You buy the crap on a roll and string it just like pex. Sound good? Look at the time you can save there. How about an amendment that says you don't need to run ANY vent through the roof anymore? Did you swallow the amendment that allows 1 1/2" below a slab now or perhaps the one that lets you wet vent an entire bath group off an 1-1/2 waste. Oooooooh here's a good one, bath groups can now be wet vented in any order. Look at the time and money you can save the contractor now. And of course the contractor will pass those savings along  Who in hell do you think made all those code changes? Who do you think is driving this fast, cheap and easy attitude? Don't tell me about "progressive" that's just a buzz word that the guys making the big bucks at the top use to make you feel better about the hand WE all have in destroying our profession.

I know my rants won't change how most of you do things, the canoe is too far over the falls by now but I will bet that it will make you think about what you are installing and how you are doing it and just maybe you will be a little less apt to swallow the latest greatest, cheapest, fastest easiest piece of plastic crap that some doooshbag counterman is pushing.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Art is in the eye of the beholder

Sent from my portable office....yes I am at work


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## AWWGH (May 2, 2011)

OldSchool said:


> Art is in the eye of the beholder
> 
> Sent from my portable office....yes I am at work


What about the beer holder?:whistling2:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> Art is in the eye of the beholder....





AWWGH said:


> What about the beer holder?:whistling2:


The eye of the beholder would be looking at a portrait.

The eye of the beer holder would be looking at a picture.

Violin vs. Fiddle

:laughing:


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> The eye of the beholder would be looking at a portrait.
> 
> The eye of the beer holder would be looking at a picture.
> 
> ...


Don't forget the power of Beer Glasses !


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## piedpiper (Mar 28, 2011)

whats wrong with a good plastic trap?aside from brass looking nicer,i think plastic will last longer......i dont get it.....


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

I can see this is going to get ugly.

I'm going to grab my musket and red coat. I'll meet you in that big open field and we'll settle this like gentlemen - as soon as this rain stops, and after I get over this bout of gout, and so long as we're all agreed.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

RW Plumbing said:


> Would you also insist that all electrical wiring be run in hard tube conduit. Properly done pex looks as neat as a good electricians work. With all the talk about superior materials and whatnot, what actually makes copper superior to anything else for water distribution? Other than aesthetics of course, which are subjective. Does it last longer in all water conditions? It has a stronger tensile strength true, but for water distribution this is a non issue. If anyone brings this up than I would assume you braze all of your joints instead of solder, because that's a much stronger joint. A quality PEX system more than meets the needs of domestic hot water distribution.
> 
> I've seen a rep demonstrate a peice of pex with a coupling in the middle in a press designed to pull it apart from both ends. Similar to a rig designed to test welds. The Wisrbo system joints held until the physical pex tore. Also, it's less susceptible to braking from freezing and a kink will right itself with a bit of heat application. I'm sure someone will post a picture of a pex joint pulled apart by freezing water, but have you never seen a copper joint pulled apart as a result of freezing. I have.
> 
> There must be some real concrete reason I'm missing other than " it can be ran square and looks better". If copper is truly a superior product, why? In use longer isn't a valid reason either. Pex hasn't been around as long as copper so of course it hasn't been in use as long. We shouldn't abandon new technology because it's easier or doesn't look good, which as I said before is subjective.


Copper does not burn, PEX does.

And Chicago, and all of the counties surrounding it, do in fact require all electric to be in conduit.

PEX isn't code approved either.


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## seanny deep (Jan 28, 2012)

Im bidding on a 2.2 million dollar house that includes the two lots they purchased to build this 4500 sq foot custom timberhome. I would love to bid it in copper but they want a tree and branch style flow thru header pex system so guess what im bidding it in wirsbo. Yes you can make pex look good not straight plum and clean like copper but it doesnt have to be slapped together like a monkey in heat installed it either. Is copper better, i would say 90% of the time yes. But pex is a far jump from poly b, kitec or cpvc. Is our trade steeling the craftsman ship out of our hands. Id say yes we are all to blame for becoming slaves to consurmerism people would rather repipe their house twice in the time they own it then pay one large sum at the begining it wont be long till a plumbers are no longer carrying pipe wrenchs i mean really how much do you use one installing pex and abs. Mind you i have over thirty ridgid pipe wrenchs and use mine constantly, but in general the trade is being spoiled bye sharkbites, pex and fuking flexable drainage what a stupid idea. But im sure most of us have used sharkbites or pex numerous times cause yes its cheaper and fastter. I do my best to keep stuff old school but my customers dictate that lots. Anyways im rambling so crack a beer, relax and lets all take some pride in this wonderful trade we have as a profession. Thanks seanny.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Your vision of what's good looking an my vision of what's good looking are light years apart. :laughing: but then again, folks opinions of what's good food and what's garbage are the reason McDonalds ET.AL. are in business.
> 
> If anyone slapped pex in my 1/2 million dollar house I would tear it all out and stuff it up their .........well, you know.


How is the water quality in your area? Do you find yourself repairing pinholes in copper? Some places have poor water either from the ground or the water department and copper does wear out.

Copper doesn't burn in a fire, so what? The rest of the house will. Hell, if the P.E.X. melts and starts spraying water all over, maybe it will help put out the theoretical blaze.

Soldering copper can start more fires. Dusty attics can be explosive.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Nope.

Never installed any PEX, or a sharkbite for that matter.

I am here to pound the lead.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

JK949 said:


> How is the water quality in your area? Do you find yourself repairing pinholes in copper? Some places have poor water either from the ground or the water department and copper does wear out.
> 
> Copper doesn't burn in a fire, so what? The rest of the house will. Hell, if the P.E.X. melts and starts spraying water all over, maybe it will help put out the theoretical blaze.
> 
> Soldering copper can start more fires. Dusty attics can be explosive.


Pin holing is not a big problem around here but if it is then the solution is water treatment which stops the pin holing gives the customer better quality water and you, the chance to sell and install equipment.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Nope.
> 
> Never installed any PEX, or a sharkbite for that matter.
> 
> I am here to pound the lead.


 
how many residential houses have you repiped?

I forget, are you a service plumber or do you do plumbing at all?


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Pin holing is not a big problem around here but if it is then the solution is water treatment which stops the pin holing gives the customer better quality water and you, the chance to sell and install equipment.


 
most cant fork out the big bucks to purchase a water treatment system.

But then again why the F would they? Other materials can be used that cost less and work better.

no need to answer idc


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Copper does not burn, PEX does.
> 
> And Chicago, and all of the counties surrounding it, do in fact require all electric to be in conduit.
> 
> PEX isn't code approved either.


So you braze your joints then. Solder melts in a fire too. Code approved in chicago isnt telling me why copper is better. You're going to have to do better. In a fire BOTH systems fail. Unless you braze the copper.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

GREENPLUM said:


> how many residential houses have you repiped?
> 
> I forget, are you a service plumber or do you do plumbing at all?


I've re-piped a bunch of single family residences, not all of them are houses.



RW Plumbing said:


> So you braze your joints then. Solder melts in a fire too. Code approved in chicago isnt telling me why copper is better. You're going to have to do better. In a fire BOTH systems fail. Unless you braze the copper.


I really don't care that the solder melts, the material itself does not burn, so it can't carry a fire from one floor to the next like PEX or plastic waste and vent can.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

GREENPLUM said:


> most cant fork out the big bucks to purchase a water treatment system.
> 
> But then again why the F would they? Other materials can be used that cost less and work better.
> 
> no need to answer idc


Why would you bother with customers that are not able to pay the bill? :laughing: Is your sole purpose as a plumber to do the job as cheap as possible? Do you have an aversion to a decent profit margin? 

I'm not in this to be a knight in shining armor or someones friend. I don't care if I loose a job, or lots of jobs for that matter because in the end the jobs I do are very profitable and I don't have to deal with cheapskates and deadbeats. 

Sorry, I had to answer, Just had too. :blink:


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Why would you bother with customers that are not able to pay the bill? because i want to be there knight in shining armor or there friend Is your sole purpose as a plumber to do the job as cheap as possible? yes, i dont like money Do you have an aversion to a decent profit margin? yes, i like being broke
> 
> I'm not in this to be a knight in shining armor or someones friend.good for you
> I don't care if I loose a job, or lots of jobs for that matter because in the end the jobs I do are very profitable and I don't have to deal with cheapskates and deadbeats. thats just wonderful
> ...


 
sounds like you got it all figured out, :thumbsup:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Yea, but you can't blame me for trying :thumbsup:


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Yea, but you can't blame me for trying :thumbsup:


 
i guess somebody got to do it. better you then me right :laughing:


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## drain surgeon (Jun 17, 2010)

So NH Master let me ask you if you run C.I. drainage do you use no hub? If you do Im sure there is still a plumber alive that would call you a hack and say that your not a REAL plumber if your not pouring lead. Before we had copper, water lines were run in galvi and we all know how that worked out. When copper first came out the guys that cut and threaded galvi or brass likely called copper crap and shat on the plumbers using it The fact is that money dictates what is used for plumbing and not everyone can afford to have a home built using C.I. and copper. Properly installed pex can look fine just as improperly installed copper can look like shiot


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

PEX - Throw a roll on your shoulder, match colors and connect the dots, no skill

Copper - Multiple steps which involves SKILL. 

Galvanized - For a piping system that stretches almost 50+ years of use and still in homes to this day, which most of the vertical runs are in perfect shape without deterioration....

I wouldn't be too quick to knock a product that is far better than that garbage CPVC. 

I'm not the one plumbing houses for $10 an hour that Enrique can learn to do in 10 minutes running PEX.


I gain work by proudly stating to my customer base that we won't install what builders want.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

drain surgeon said:


> So NH Master let me ask you if you run C.I. drainage do you use no hub? If you do Im sure there is still a plumber alive that would call you a hack and say that your not a REAL plumber if your not pouring lead. Before we had copper, water lines were run in galvi and we all know how that worked out. When copper first came out the guys that cut and threaded galvi or brass likely called copper crap and shat on the plumbers using it The fact is that money dictates what is used for plumbing and not everyone can afford to have a home built using C.I. and copper. Properly installed pex can look fine just as improperly installed copper can look like shiot


And before galvy and cast there was clay and lead and before that aqueducts and a hole in the ground. yes time marches on and so do methods and materials. Thanks for the plumbing history lesson :laughing:

So how far are we going to take all this? Shall we make everything so fast, cheap and easy that a plumbing license is no longer required? Maybe we can just get rid of plumbers altogether and let the handymen do the job. You say it will never happen. I say open your eyes. It's already happening. It started with the materials and moved on to the code and then to the big box stores and inspectors unwilling to prosecute. It's only a matter of time. Every time you settle. Every time you bid to cost alone. Every time you let home owners, contractors and your competition to dictate your price and your terms we all loose a little more.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Is the word really progressive?? Does buying into the whole cheap, fast and easy thing make one progressive or..........ummmmmmm .....lazy?
> Advancements? Ah yes, AAV's, plastic...everything and ummmmmm faster cheaper and easier along with lower wages, lower profits, less work, less pride and less respect for the license. We didn't have to go here. We could have stopped this crap a long time ago but we let salesmen and manufacturers steam roll us into allowing this to happen to our profession, our craft. And guess what, you get what you pay for and I KNOW what's happening to a whole lot of you guys out there trying to make a living every day and having a damn hard time doing it. Some of it is because of the economy indeed but a big part of it is because we allow the public, contractors, manufacturers and salesmen to dictate what we will use and how much money we will make. It's not the product that is the issue as much is its the slap it in quick and cheap attitude that has led contractors and homeowner to degrade what we do. You say you can't compete without using pex because contractors are not willing to pay for copper. Well just how in hell did we ever get to the point where some friggin contractor is telling us what we are going to use and how much we are going to charge for it? I'll tell you how. That would be because some other hack plumber decided to hack your balls off and sell cheap, fast and easy and when he did he screwed every other plumber in a 500 mile radius so now you all sell cheap fast and easy. So tell me my friend. Just how low are you willing to go? Where will you draw the line. You do know that they are working on getting flexible DWV piping approved? You buy the crap on a roll and string it just like pex. Sound good? Look at the time you can save there. How about an amendment that says you don't need to run ANY vent through the roof anymore? Did you swallow the amendment that allows 1 1/2" below a slab now or perhaps the one that lets you wet vent an entire bath group off an 1-1/2 waste. Oooooooh here's a good one, bath groups can now be wet vented in any order. Look at the time and money you can save the contractor now. And of course the contractor will pass those savings along  Who in hell do you think made all those code changes? Who do you think is driving this fast, cheap and easy attitude? Don't tell me about "progressive" that's just a buzz word that the guys making the big bucks at the top use to make you feel better about the hand WE all have in destroying our profession.
> 
> I know my rants won't change how most of you do things, the canoe is too far over the falls by now but I will bet that it will make you think about what you are installing and how you are doing it and just maybe you will be a little less apt to swallow the latest greatest, cheapest, fastest easiest piece of plastic crap that some doooshbag counterman is pushing.


Well said!


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> So how far are we going to take all this? Shall we make everything so fast, cheap and easy that a plumbing license is no longer required? Maybe we can just get rid of plumbers altogether and let the handymen do the job. You say it will never happen. I say open your eyes. It's already happening. It started with the materials and moved on to the code and then to the big box stores and inspectors unwilling to prosecute. It's only a matter of time. Every time you settle. Every time you bid to cost alone. Every time you let home owners, contractors and your competition to dictate your price and your terms we all loose a little more.


 
why do you care, you already got it figured out. None of these new fangled products affect your biz or the biz you work for. You said it yourself, your company has tons of work and your paid top dollar. so what do you really know?

you dont live it

you dont work with anything but copper and cast 

meh..


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

nhmaster3015 said:


> And before galvy and cast there was clay and lead and before that aqueducts and a hole in the ground. yes time marches on and so do methods and materials. Thanks for the plumbing history lesson :laughing:
> 
> So how far are we going to take all this? Shall we make everything so fast, cheap and easy that a plumbing license is no longer required? Maybe we can just get rid of plumbers altogether and let the handymen do the job. You say it will never happen. I say open your eyes. It's already happening. It started with the materials and moved on to the code and then to the big box stores and inspectors unwilling to prosecute. It's only a matter of time. Every time you settle. Every time you bid to cost alone. Every time you let home owners, contractors and your competition to dictate your price and your terms we all loose a little more.


I agree....why does the plumbing price always need to be cut? Pex is killing our trade, it takes no skill and anyone can do it bottom line.
I understand why in some areas you install it because the bar has been set already and you have to in order to be competitive.
My biggest problem is the gas flex piping, that crap is just scary. Public safety is #1, i wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I installed that.
I would definitely draw the line there.

And the electrician argument doesn't work because people will always be afraid of electricity, so electricians will be fine forever...
I also disagree with the solder melting in a fire theory... Have you ever tried sweating off a fitting with a little water in it??? Good luck!!


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

NYC Plumber said:


> I agree....why does the plumbing price always need to be cut? Pex is killing our trade, it takes no skill and anyone can do it bottom line.
> I understand why in some areas you install it because the bar has been set already and you have to in order to be competitive.
> My biggest problem is the gas flex piping, that crap is just scary. Public safety is #1, i wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I installed that.
> I would definitely draw the line there.
> ...


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> PEX - Throw a roll on your shoulder, match colors and connect the dots, no skill
> 
> Copper - Multiple steps which involves SKILL.
> 
> ...


 
it does take some skill to run whatever pipe correctly.

dont paint with such a broad brush, sayin that PEX takes no skill whatsoever to install directly insults alot of us real plumbers that work for a living.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Gas in water lines?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

NYC Plumber said:


> Gas in water lines?


 






I know you're talking about water piping, but I'm just throwing it out there. There is alot of gas piping done in copper. Sadly, some of it is soldered.

That is why gas codes require copper gas line to be brazed or welded.

I know a guy who used to work in Brooklyn and Queens who told me he replaced some gas line with copper and he soldered it......:yes:


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> I know you're talking about water piping, but I'm just throwing it out there. There is alot of gas piping done in copper. Sadly, some of it is soldered.
> 
> That is why gas codes require copper gas line to be brazed or welded.
> 
> I know a guy who used to work in Brooklyn and Queens who told me he replaced some gas line with copper and he soldered it......:yes:


Nooooooo def not..... Copper is not an approved material for gas here for obvious reasons... I would say even flex gas pipe is better than copper for gas lol..
I dont know gas is just not the place to cut corners....


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

NYC Plumber said:


> Nooooooo def not..... Copper is not an approved material for gas here for obvious reasons... I would say even flex gas pipe is better than copper for gas lol..
> I dont know gas is just not the place to cut corners....


 






Here in FL we can use copper ( L minimum) for gas lines. But it can't be soldered. Metallic gas piping has to be either: threaded, flanged, brazed or welded. The copper can be flared to the gas appliance as well.

Med gas lines in hospitals for example are all brazed copper. They transport oxygen, nitrous oxide, etc.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> Nooooooo def not..... Copper is not an approved material for gas here for obvious reasons... I would say even flex gas pipe is better than copper for gas lol..
> I dont know gas is just not the place to cut corners....


 
have you ever installed CSST or used copper for gas? zactly 

what do you know about it...nothing :laughing:


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> Here in FL we can use copper ( L minimum) for gas lines. But it can't be soldered. Metallic gas piping has to be either: threaded, flanged, brazed or soldered. The copper can be flared to the gas appliance as well.
> 
> Med gas lines in hospitals for example are all brazed. They transport oxygen, nitrous oxide, etc.


Yeah med gas is different, i was talking natural gas. Intresting i wouldnt think copper was acceptable for natural gas anywhere...
Id be afraid of somone putting a nail through it or something, im sure you take the proper precautions but im also sure there are plenty who dont.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

GREENPLUM said:


> have you ever installed CSST or used copper for gas? zactly
> 
> what do you know about it...nothing :laughing:


Have you ever heard of thick skin? Zactly you know nothing about it. LOL.


I Have read about csst and saw thats lots of houses were burning down because of it. And holes were made in the piping because of electrical current.
You dont need to be a genius or a pumber to see why, actually im sure even a dumb HO would see that csst is a much inferior material than black.
I really dont feel like discussing how it is the crappiest install of all piping systems, because your too ignorant to see it.


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## Ansel (Sep 14, 2008)

Plumbergeek said:


> What was the OP?:laughing:
> Oh yea, He ran for the door and hasn't responded! I guess we scared him off!


 No such luck , I am working some long hours and I am tired as ----. I did not get back to the PZ last night sorry. But it seems to me that most of you have misunderstood my intent. I am not memoaning the materials available on the market. I am talking about taking the materials that exists and doing a top quality job. Does some material look better than others.? Absolutely! The first one to respond to my post clearly got my intent. i was soliciting the opions of my peers as to the condition of our wonderful trade, in an era of declining pride in craftsmanship. I guess that I was hoping that I was not alone in my hope that it might still be save from the apathy that so marks most things in this country now a days. And by the way former Marines do not get run off.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

So GP are you saying that a fella has to install a product before he can judge it? 

I guess I care because......I care. To quote a very old Saturday Night Live bit "plumbing been verry veery good to me" I care about the trade and the future of the trade and I'm willing to fight for the trade and I was willing to walk away from one part of the trade so that I could teach the trade and the pride in the trade to the next generation because I believe it's important to give back something when you can. Will CSST PEX and the rest of that crap be the ruin of the trade? No, not by themselves. No more than PCV ruined the trade when it was introduced. Single things, all by themselves can only have a marginal impact. It's when you pile them up that they begin to have their effect. I fear that the biggest impact these products have is that they require so much less skill and thought that the quality of the person installing it is slowly going downhill. There is so much more to this profession than stringing pipes across a basement.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> Have you ever heard of thick skin? Zactly you know nothing about it. LOL.
> 
> 
> I Have read about csst and saw thats lots of houses were burning down because of it. And holes were made in the piping because of electrical current.
> ...


 
as was said : what do you know about it .... nothing :laughing:

and you think I'm the ignorant one? you have never installed,altered,repaired, maintained any CSST. You know nothing or I could say you're without knowledge


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Plumbing materials aren't the major cause of handymen doing plumbing, or the cheapening of the trade. How many of you have got after an inspector, or called in a handyman that was doing our work. How many union members call up, and tell other plumbers to call their hall to put pressure on them about it. It doesn't matter if no licensed plumber ever used pex, some handyman somewhere is still going to use it. Just because it isn't right doesn't mean it isn't used.

You shouldn't me mad at licensed guys using easier to work with materials if you aren't also doing something about handyhacks. That's like putting on sunscreen to avoid skin cancer when you have a knife sticking out of your chest. I call in unlicensed guys all the time. I troll craigslist and flag all of their posts if they mention plumbing in their handyman services ad. I call my union hall and tell them there wouldn't be so many guys sitting home if less guys were doing work without a license.

I can think of a million different ways to do something about the problem. I'm even applying to be an inspector, even though I have a successful business. I want to personally bust these F'ers. Let's worry less about pex, and more about Juan the illegal performing plumbing/drywall services. There's 20+ posts in my area every day on craigslist for these clowns. It's time to keep our eyes open, and start blowing up people's phones. Government works on the principal of annoyance, they're only going to do something if enough people complain enough times.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Oh crap, I just realized that maybe some of you guys are thinking that I am insulting you and believe me I don't mean you guys necessarily, you are all the best otherwise you would not be here at least listening to this. You would have said that I'm a friggin idiot and left a long time ago so again, at least we are thinking and talking about our trade and I think we can all agree that we need to improve our image and worth.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

GREENPLUM said:


> as was said : what do you know about it .... nothing :laughing:


http://home-safety.factoidz.com/fir...-tubing-csst-gas-lines-and-lightning-strikes/

Ok explain to me what im missing csst master.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

RW Plumbing said:


> Plumbing materials aren't the major cause of handymen doing plumbing, or the cheapening of the trade. How many of you have got after an inspector, or called in a handyman that was doing our work. How many union members call up, and tell other plumbers to call their hall to put pressure on them about it. It doesn't matter if no licensed plumber ever used pex, some handyman somewhere is still going to use it. Just because it isn't right doesn't mean it isn't used.
> 
> You shouldn't me mad at licensed guys using easier to work with materials if you aren't also doing something about handyhacks. That's like putting on sunscreen to avoid skin cancer when you have a knife sticking out of your chest. I call in unlicensed guys all the time. I troll craigslist and flag all of their posts if they mention plumbing in their handyman services ad. I call my union hall and tell them there wouldn't be so many guys sitting home if less guys were doing work without a license.
> 
> I can think of a million different ways to do something about the problem. I'm even applying to be an inspector, even though I have a successful business. I want to personally bust these F'ers. Let's worry less about pex, and more about Juan the illegal performing plumbing/drywall services. There's 20+ posts in my area every day on craigslist for these clowns. It's time to keep our eyes open, and start blowing up people's phones. Government works on the principal of annoyance, they're only going to do something if enough people complain enough times.


Good point also!


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## ironandfire (Oct 9, 2008)

A couple more issues from the job. First pic is a three fixture Philly single. Second pic has a couple of things wrong. I'm not the boss , if I was, it would be done differently.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> So GP are you saying that a fella has to install a product before he can judge it? you certainly judge products you have never installed. Dont knock it til ya try it
> 
> I guess I care because......I care. To quote a very old Saturday Night Live bit "plumbing been verry veery good to me" I care about the trade and the future of the trade and I'm willing to fight for the trade and I was willing to walk away from one part of the trade so that I could teach the trade and the pride in the trade to the next generation because I believe it's important to give back something when you can. Will CSST PEX and the rest of that crap be the ruin of the trade? No, not by themselves. No more than PCV ruined the trade when it was introduced. Single things, all by themselves can only have a marginal impact. It's when you pile them up that they begin to have their effect. I fear that the biggest impact these products have is that they require so much less skill and thought that the quality of the person installing it is slowly going downhill. There is so much more to this profession than stringing pipes across a basement.


thanks for givin somthing back, your a real good guy


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> http://home-safety.factoidz.com/fir...-tubing-csst-gas-lines-and-lightning-strikes/
> 
> Ok explain to me what im missing csst master.


 
do you believe everything on the internet :laughing: i can post links too ,,,wow

http://www.csstfacts.org/csst-vs-black-iron-pipe.aspx


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

It's not the material that matters.... It's the code

Any moron can buy and install any type of pipe and fittings

BUT IS IT DONE RIGHT

Sent from my portable office....yes I am at work


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

GREENPLUM said:


> do you believe everything on the internet :laughing: i can post links too ,,,wow
> 
> http://www.csstfacts.org/csst-vs-black-iron-pipe.aspx


Lol i didn't go to the csst website Lol... I Knew i should not have engaged in this dead end conversation with an ignorant guy who really believes garden hose is acceptable materail for gas... Im sorry you win, csst is brilliant!!


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

NYC Plumber said:


> Lol i didn't go to the csst website Lol... I Knew i should not have engaged in this dead end conversation with an ignorant guy who really believes garden hose is acceptable materail for gas... Im sorry you win, csst is brilliant!!


It's not garden hose its corrugated stainless steal tubing lmao

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> So GP are you saying that a fella has to install a product before he can judge it?
> 
> I guess I care because......I care. To quote a very old Saturday Night Live bit "plumbing been verry veery good to me" I care about the trade and the future of the trade and I'm willing to fight for the trade and I was willing to walk away from one part of the trade so that I could teach the trade and the pride in the trade to the next generation because I believe it's important to give back something when you can. Will CSST PEX and the rest of that crap be the ruin of the trade? No, not by themselves. No more than PCV ruined the trade when it was introduced. Single things, all by themselves can only have a marginal impact. It's when you pile them up that they begin to have their effect. I fear that the biggest impact these products have is that they require so much less skill and thought that the quality of the person installing it is slowly going downhill. There is so much more to this profession than stringing pipes across a basement.


I don't know how it is where you're from, but I've never met someone that was a fully licensed plumber around here that sucked. It doesn't matter what material they use, the amount of knowledge required to obtain a license here weeds the clowns out. I've seen garbage come out of the most old school and the new generation of plumbers. This is quickly turning into a "in my day, things were so much better" argument. I would venture that most of the lousy work i've seen has come from the old guys, granted the majority of them were drunks and the ones that weren't did some great work. 

If you get your card here, regardless of age, you know the trade pretty well. Through our apprenticeship culminating with our 8 hour written exam, you have to be decent to get to the finish line. Is it harder to run galvanized and cast iron than pex and pvc, absolutely, Most of the old school stuff I've seen was crooked in the hubs, no hangers on the galvanized, not straight so what are we really saying? Most of it wasn't installed as straight, or well supported as the stuff I install every day. Easier to work with materials net neater results, struggling with hub and spigot CI is difficult and I don't blame people for not having it 100% but the drain piping now can look neater than it used to, mine does. Also, how many stacks did you see run compact in a basement or tucked into a joist space in CI, or copper for that matter? 

The new trend for homes is to maximize space by finishing a basement. Homes with old original DWV and water are a pain to finish and waste lots of space. PEX is easier to tuck up out of the way, without burning the crap out of joists. Saying that installers quality has gone down I call BS. Now with the easier to work with materials, people expect more. It isn't acceptable to run your waste piping wherever anymore or hang your water down low. It may not be as difficult to assemble but, when you run it in a joist, it becomes MORE difficult.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> Im sorry !!


 
yes you are


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Mississippiplum said:


> It's not garden hose its corrugated stainless steal tubing lmao
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


You know what, i think actually the garden hose would be better now that im thinking about it lol..
Maybe if they made sch 80 garden hose and get it approved we can use that!
At least holes wont burn in the pipe when there are lighting strikes in the area LOL!


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

NYC Plumber said:


> You know what, i think actually the garden hose would be better now that im thinking about it lol..
> Maybe if they made sch 80 garden hose and get it approved we can use that!
> At least holes wont burn in the pipe when there are lighting strikes in the area LOL!


Lmao that's true, atleast garden hose ain't conductive

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

we install what home owner can afford, which is usually pex. have not done sharkbite thing cause im scared . res repair.

we install what builder wants and what is in his budget and ultimately what we are still going to make good money on, usually pex. res construction.


we install what builder wants and what is in his budget and what we are still going to make good money on, usually copper, cpvc, pex. commercial construction

whether its pex , cast , or copper, black, csst, does it really matter? we are still professionals! we still hold professional liscenses. i do not see how ,realistically someone can really be saying " i only install copper or you can ger another plumber!" cmon man!! i would be a broke ***** if i had that motto. 

face it , we are our own bosses but we still have to install what customers can afford.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

As for CSST its not the material but the installer...


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

justin said:


> we install what home owner can afford, which is usually pex. have not done sharkbite thing cause im scared . res repair.
> 
> we install what builder wants and what is in his budget and ultimately what we are still going to make good money on, usually pex. res construction.
> 
> ...


If you work mostly for builders, then you gotta do, what they want, & what they want is always cheap. I aint saying your wrong, for what you do, or what you believe. If this makes you a good living, then more power to ya.

I personally do work for a few custom remodelers, & all the rest are homeowners. I have never installed 1" of cpvc for pressure, in my 33 plus yrs of doing plumbing. Few for condensate, or similar drains, but that's it.

I have installed about 6 rolls of pex & thats it. Maybe 3 or 4 spools of CSST. Otherwise I still install 99% of my gas lines, in hard pipe, & 99.99% of water pipes is copper. I just purchased a large order of copper pipes, copper fittings, & sweat valves last week.

All my work is in existing homes, & all the existing homes around here are copper, & I always give the customer a choice of pex, but my customers just want to keep what material exists in rest of house, & they feel copper is still superior. And alot say if they want to sell the house, there is never a question or doubt, if they have copper. Same goes for hard gas pipe.

I know one day I will have to cave in, & start installing more pex, but hopefully, I can retire, when that happens. I carry 1/2" & 3/4" pex & fittings in my truck, but as of now, I use it mostly for temp hookups, or if someone wants cheap job. Thankfully over the years, I weeded out most of the tight wads.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Who wants to explain how I've been gainfully employed for decades as a plumber, 


haven't installed one inch of CPVC...

not one linear foot of Blue Max

PEX


and work, constantly without BS excuses 'for what customers want' in my daily ritual.


I've got 20+ more years, maybe more... I won't be swayed in my thinking. 

You got me on one product...

plastic toilet flange bolts... that's it.

Sick and tired of cutting brass bolts... they make a set where I install the cap and never touch the stud in regards to cutting.

That's my bending of change over the years.


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## SHAUN C (Feb 16, 2011)

Plastic flange bolts?? Where does one find plastic flange bolts? My helper would love that, the guy whines when I hand him my mini hack saw


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Who wants to explain how I've been gainfully employed for decades as a plumber,
> 
> haven't installed one inch of CPVC...
> 
> ...


Well since the trend of using less expensive quicker installation materials has really taken off in the past few years with the economic downturn, it's totally understandable you haven't had to change. You have established customers that know what to expect from you. No one is doubting your artistry, it was very um artistic how you repaired that copper vent pipe....


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## seanny deep (Jan 28, 2012)

*by hammer and hand all things do stand*

since pipe cannot be obtained in unlimited lengths, and the fact that in practically all pipe installations there are numerous changes in directions , branched, ect ect.pipe fittings have been devised for the necessary connections. By definition the term pipe fitting is used to denote all those fittings that may be attached to pipes to (1), to alter the direction of a pipe (2), to connect a branch to a main (3), to close an end (4) to connect two pipes of different sizes. There is an undue multiplicity of fittings on the market and the supply house that keeps them all is indeed hard to find, hence in pipe fitting it is advisable to use only the simplest of fittings, because special or unusual forms are hard to get and costly. The difference in meaning between the terms pipe fittings and pipe fitting shouuld be noted. Thus , pipe fittings denotes the various devices such as elbows, ts ect used in connecting pipes and pipe fittings, the process of threading, screwing the pipes and fittings together , the man who does this being called a pipe fitter. THERE ARE A GOOD MANY PERSONS POSING AS PIPE FITTERS WHO HAVE NO RIGHT TO THE TITLE JUDGEING FROM THERE QUALITY OF WORK. 
- Audels plumbers and steam fitters guide copywright 1925;1938;1942;1949 so theres been hacks and those that are good and take pride and those that dont for a long time. Seanny


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

RW Plumbing said:


> Well since the trend of using less expensive quicker installation materials has really taken off in the past few years with the economic downturn, it's totally understandable you haven't had to change. You have established customers that know what to expect from you. No one is doubting your artistry, it was very um artistic how you repaired that copper vent pipe....


 

Really, 





So when I crack the whip you come out of the woodwork to critique my work from a thread weeks ago...


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> So GP are you saying that a fella has to install a product before he can judge it?
> 
> I guess I care because......I care. To quote a very old Saturday Night Live bit "plumbing been verry veery good to me" I care about the trade and the future of the trade and I'm willing to fight for the trade and I was willing to walk away from one part of the trade so that I could teach the trade and the pride in the trade to the next generation because I believe it's important to give back something when you can. Will CSST PEX and the rest of that crap be the ruin of the trade? No, not by themselves. No more than PCV ruined the trade when it was introduced. Single things, all by themselves can only have a marginal impact. It's when you pile them up that they begin to have their effect. I fear that the biggest impact these products have is that they require so much less skill and thought that the quality of the person installing it is slowly going downhill. There is so much more to this profession than stringing pipes across a basement.


It won't be long until the trade gets to the point that if you can't glue it we can't do it.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Really,
> 
> So when I crack the whip you come out of the woodwork to critique my work from a thread weeks ago...


Just pointing out those in glass houses.....


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

1.With all due respect to my hometown, that fire picture of the 2nd story tub hanging by the plumbing where the rest of the building is burnt down has nothing to do with what products should be used, or whether it holds up in a fire...start prosecuting those restaurant arsonists .....
2. Unless things have changed in Chicago that I'm not aware..high rises use galvanized and Chicago water on the hot side starts going in 20 years...and they dont treat Chicago water to take out the chlorine that I know of....in high rises///maybe Im wrong
3.If cost is a major criterion in construction and the codes and the products change, why is the soap box preaching directed at the plumber as if he is guilty of the changes????
4.Some people just like to moan and groan.....
5. Times change...sometimes its a bummer...but if the economy collapses and guys scrounge for a job to survive..who will listen to what freaking material should be used?


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## Nikolai (Dec 17, 2009)

In respect to the OPs post, I plumb for myself first and foremost. I like to think I have very high standards and I will never sacrifice quality for speed. I've told my employers this as well. I take my job very seriously and take an exceptional amount of pride in my work. 

Ive worked with a lot of "cheap" materials because it's what the employer supplied, but I still try my absolute hardest to do a neat and code approved install. This includes viega pex, wirsbo, rehau, Aquatherm, and Gastite.

It definitely takes less skill to install the above materials, but it DOES take skill to install it neatly and to code. I'm at the mercy of what my employer supplies me, there's plenty of things I'd do differently if I was self employed. 

And just a side note, Aquatherm piping has a 50 year guarantee, more than double that of copper. Plus it can freeze and thaw. I still dislike parts of it, and it will be perfected with more time, but copper is not the end all be all. 

To sum up my short story, all you can do is your best with what you're given.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Nikolai said:


> but copper is not the end all be all.



I don't recall anyone saying it was, threaded brass already holds that distinction.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

RW Plumbing said:


> Just pointing out those in glass houses.....


 
Did I get defensive about the materials I put in my hands... no. You did. You had a problem that I called out the masses.













With exception to the fact I never strap the tanks before I snap a picture... find the fault in my hot date last evening with 50 gallon powershot heater.


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## seanny deep (Jan 28, 2012)

*hahah thats funny*

You bid a house in copper or threaded brass il bid it in wirsbo with copper stub outs and flow thru headers and a motion sensor activated recirc pump and see which system the homeowner prefers a nice clean square copper run and branch system that forces them to drop their ceilings. Or an instantly hot pressure balanced hot water the second you walk into the bathroom with straight clean copper stub outs.. at a fraction of the price.... Yes i agree i would way rather rough in a house in copper it feels good especially at the end of the job and the satisfaction of no leaks... But at some point you have to put your ego aside and wake up and smell the coffee.. "or not smell burning flux in this case" our job as a tradesman is to find the safest, quickest way to get the job done right. Yes this includes pricing if you are so above helping your customer get a job they probally havent budgeted for done in copper "service" and adding zeros to there bill then you must not be as busy as you claim to be come on. Personally i try to get as much work as i can and be efficent and cost affective i installed a tap for a lady the other day on an old clawfoot tub waterlines had been copper, but some hack sharkbited on to them and changed to pex then couldnt get his pex fip to seal on the running threads. To union tub elbows and a bit of copper bang her new faucets installed i gave her a bill for 146.70 including material she said thats it the unlicenced guy was there 6 hrs and left her without a tub and charged her 180 cash.. what im getting at is there payiing for you to make the right decsion and its not fair to push something that costs them more if theirs no real benefit but your ego.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

seanny deep said:


> You bid a house in copper or threaded brass il bid it in wirsbo with copper stub outs


I'll get the job, PEX is not code approved here, the homeowner wants a job that will pass inspection.


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## seanny deep (Jan 28, 2012)

But I'm guessing cpvc is right? Which is a joke.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

seanny deep said:


> But I'm guessing cpvc is right? Which is a joke.


Nope, you can't use that either.

Galvanized is code approved though. I did an entire condo with galvanized water, waste and vent a few years ago.


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## seanny deep (Jan 28, 2012)

killertoiletspider said:


> nope, you can't use that either.
> 
> Galvanized is code approved though. I did an entire condo with galvanized water, waste and vent a few years ago.


well that's great to hear that there is still is a place wear even hacks would have to be well equipped and have some form of training consider yourself very lucky i wish code here would protect there assets and make it so plumbers had to be well trained and good at what they do unfortuently where i am galvanized is only approved for repairing existing grandfathered systems and copper is a real hard sell. But if i were in chicago i'd definetly agree much respect fraturnally sean graham.


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## seanny deep (Jan 28, 2012)

So does your code keep home depot from selling diyers pex?


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

seanny deep said:


> So does your code keep home depot from diyers from buying pex?


I don't know, I don't go to Home Depot.


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## seanny deep (Jan 28, 2012)

Neither do i but i lnow ho go there to fix there problems and they sell all sorts of shiiiit i had a customer supply pre fluxed and pre soldered copper fittings looked like propress but had a ring of solder instead of oring i just laughed and did it right with flux and solder and copper fittings.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

RW Plumbing said:


> Plumbing materials aren't the major cause of handymen doing plumbing, or the cheapening of the trade. How many of you have got after an inspector, or called in a handyman that was doing our work. How many union members call up, and tell other plumbers to call their hall to put pressure on them about it. It doesn't matter if no licensed plumber ever used pex, some handyman somewhere is still going to use it. Just because it isn't right doesn't mean it isn't used.
> 
> You shouldn't me mad at licensed guys using easier to work with materials if you aren't also doing something about handyhacks. That's like putting on sunscreen to avoid skin cancer when you have a knife sticking out of your chest. I call in unlicensed guys all the time. I troll craigslist and flag all of their posts if they mention plumbing in their handyman services ad. I call my union hall and tell them there wouldn't be so many guys sitting home if less guys were doing work without a license.
> 
> I can think of a million different ways to do something about the problem. I'm even applying to be an inspector, even though I have a successful business. I want to personally bust these F'ers. Let's worry less about pex, and more about Juan the illegal performing plumbing/drywall services. There's 20+ posts in my area every day on craigslist for these clowns. It's time to keep our eyes open, and start blowing up people's phones. Government works on the principal of annoyance, they're only going to do something if enough people complain enough times.


That is beautiful, couldn't agree more, I too am actice in trying to make a difference with these unlicensed f-ers taking down and cheapening our trade. If everyone put in a little effort in this manner I bet we could make a significant difference.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

seanny deep said:


> You bid a house in copper or threaded brass il bid it in wirsbo with copper stub outs and flow thru headers and a motion sensor activated recirc pump and see which system the homeowner prefers a nice clean square copper run and branch system that forces them to drop their ceilings. Or an instantly hot pressure balanced hot water the second you walk into the bathroom with straight clean copper stub outs.. at a fraction of the price.... Yes i agree i would way rather rough in a house in copper it feels good especially at the end of the job and the satisfaction of no leaks... But at some point you have to put your ego aside and wake up and smell the coffee.. "or not smell burning flux in this case" our job as a tradesman is to find the safest, quickest way to get the job done right. Yes this includes pricing if you are so above helping your customer get a job they probally havent budgeted for done in copper "service" and adding zeros to there bill then you must not be as busy as you claim to be come on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Did I get defensive about the materials I put in my hands... no. You did. You had a problem that I called out the masses.
> 
> With exception to the fact I never strap the tanks before I snap a picture... find the fault in my hot date last evening with 50 gallon powershot heater.


My problem is when you want an attaboy for hacking s.hit together then turn around and criticize someone else for using pex.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I live and work in the northeast. Mostly in New Hampshire and Maine but occasionally in Vermont and Mass as well. All of those states plumbing codes allow the use of CPVC and yet almost nobody uses it around here, homeowners included. The supply houses don't carry it at all (special order only) Why do you suppose that is? That would be because most plumbers around here consider CPVC to be totally useless crap and will not offer it nor install it and yet these same plumbers have for reasons known only to them, decided that PEX is ok. We could have squashed pex and csst a long time ago but we didn't so here we are desperately defending one crap product over another. Of course down south a lot of plumbers have just given up altogether and are willing to install anything at all rather than loose a couple of bucks. You younger guys missed the glory days of plumbing when you didn't have to work 12 and 14 hour days, 7 days a week just to make ends meet. You missed not having to run around like a chicken with your head cut off trying to fit as many crappy paying service jobs in per day just to pay the bills. You missed that because the trade changed and not for the better. You missed it because you were all so busy trying to undercut the other guy at the expense of long term security.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I live and work in the northeast. Mostly in New Hampshire and Maine but occasionally in Vermont and Mass as well. All of those states plumbing codes allow the use of CPVC and yet almost nobody uses it around here, homeowners included. The supply houses don't carry it at all (special order only) Why do you suppose that is? That would be because most plumbers around here consider CPVC to be totally useless crap and will not offer it nor install it and yet these same plumbers have for reasons known only to them, decided that PEX is ok. We could have squashed pex and csst a long time ago but we didn't so here we are desperately defending one crap product over another. Of course down south a lot of plumbers have just given up altogether and are willing to install anything at all rather than loose a couple of bucks. You younger guys missed the glory days of plumbing when you didn't have to work 12 and 14 hour days, 7 days a week just to make ends meet. You missed not having to run around like a chicken with your head cut off trying to fit as many crappy paying service jobs in per day just to pay the bills. You missed that because the trade changed and not for the better. You missed it because you were all so busy trying to undercut the other guy at the expense of long term security.


What I really don't understand is the perception of "easier" to install. Plastic DWV is easier how? I can install hub and spigot cast iron, and make it look pretty, in about the same amount of time it takes to hang plastic when you figure in the time to install hangers. That and I don't have to smell MEK fumes all day.


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## ironandfire (Oct 9, 2008)

Got our inspection yesterday, Inspector had no questions and passed everything with flying colors.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Killertoiletspider said:


> What I really don't understand is the perception of "easier" to install. Plastic DWV is easier how? I can install hub and spigot cast iron, and make it look pretty, in about the same amount of time it takes to hang plastic when you figure in the time to install hangers. That and I don't have to smell MEK fumes all day.


Really you can pour lead joints as fast as i can run PVC? Using J hooks goes pretty fast with wood joists. Are you saying you don't use hangers? I'm pretty sure CI still needs to be supported. 

No, you don't have to smell primer fumes all day, just lead fumes. Those are much healthier.


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

I've installed type M copper,type L copper,CPVC for water above ground.Installed type K,type L copper below ground.Installed XH C.I.,SV C.I.,ABS DWV,PVC DWV below ground.Installed type L,type M,type DWV,PVC,ABS,no hub,SV C.I.,XH C.I. for W+V.Installed steel pipe,Wardflex for gas.You argue about materials,should we still be doing layout with a plumb bob,chalk and a string line,check out some of the new ideas like Trimble or even the old/new CAD programs for layout,would you shy away from them,they make the job alot easier too.I've installed many different materials over the years,but it seems that arguments like this make me glad that I'm old with only a few years left to go til retirement,then I can argue about using monofilament or Spiderwire to fish with.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

leakfree said:


> I've installed type M copper,type L copper,CPVC for water above ground.Installed type K,type L copper below ground.Installed XH C.I.,SV C.I.,ABS DWV,PVC DWV below ground.Installed type L,type M,type DWV,PVC,ABS,no hub,SV C.I.,XH C.I. for W+V.Installed steel pipe,Wardflex for gas.You argue about materials,should we still be doing layout with a plumb bob,chalk and a string line,check out some of the new ideas like Trimble or even the old/new CAD programs for layout,would you shy away from them,they make the job alot easier too.I've installed many different materials over the years,but it seems that arguments like this make me glad that I'm old with only a few years left to go til retirement,then I can argue about using monofilament or Spiderwire to fish with.


Spiderwire is crap, go with Power Pro ! lol


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

Ansel said:


> On February 6th of this year I took a position with a large mechanical company headquartered in Mississippi. They also have a division in Georgia which actually is the division I now work for. We are presently constructing a veterans outpatient clinic, and are now installing the underground. As the group is from Georgia they are not familar with all the ammendments to the ipc that are a part of the North Carolina code. I am a journeyman and a holder of a class one plumbing contractors license in North Carolina. I try to assist with advice concerning issues of code. I find that the normal statement to my comments is something like, "well that isn't important." Which at present seems to center on pitch of pipe. They are willing to sacrifice minimums to maintain elevation. And so far the inspector has given them the pass,with the exception of one section about ten feet in length which was 4" pvc that only had 1/16th pitch. And they made me fix it. Even though I had protested long and hard about the subject all along. I realize of course that times have changed and I am not nieve. But it was the pride in craftsmanship, even the artistry of plumbing that made the trade really appeal to me. Have we as a trade reached the place where we really just do not give a rat's --- about our work. Just throw it in it does not matter if it is right , just get it done. Perhaps my complaining to you my peers may even seem juvinile to some of you. Perhaps you would ridicule me as a whiner. But I really want to knoow from you guys, is this really where we are as a trade? And what does it mean for the future? When the younger people who might enter our proud profession, will they emulate our BS laziness, or is there hope that they might give a ---- and rescue us fron our apathy? What I see scares me. Or perhaps it would be better stated it saddens me. When you see something done by a craftsman who cares about his craft it can be inspiring. When you stand back and look at an installation you performed can you sleep at night ? Can you say I did that and feel pride? That is the plumbing I want to be involved in. How about you?



Wouldn't happen to be Ivey Mechanical would it?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

leakfree said:


> I've installed type M copper,type L copper,CPVC for water above ground.Installed type K,type L copper below ground.Installed XH C.I.,SV C.I.,ABS DWV,PVC DWV below ground.Installed type L,type M,type DWV,PVC,ABS,no hub,SV C.I.,XH C.I. for W+V.Installed steel pipe,Wardflex for gas.You argue about materials,should we still be doing layout with a plumb bob,chalk and a string line,check out some of the new ideas like Trimble or even the old/new CAD programs for layout,would you shy away from them,they make the job alot easier too.I've installed many different materials over the years,but it seems that arguments like this make me glad that I'm old with only a few years left to go til retirement,then I can argue about using monofilament or Spiderwire to fish with.


Do you like the Spiderwire? I have a problem with it having so little give to it that I often pull the bait from the fishes mouth. Probably just bad technique on my part, need to work on my timing. My brother in law is a pro bass fisherman and he pretty much swears by the stuff cause he lives down south and fishes a lot of structure so he can horse the fish out. Where I fish generally does not have that issue though. Lately though I've been doing most of my bass fishing with a fly rod.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Nothing beats good flurocarbon

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

RW Plumbing said:


> Really you can pour lead joints as fast as i can run PVC? Using J hooks goes pretty fast with wood joists. Are you saying you don't use hangers? I'm pretty sure CI still needs to be supported.
> 
> No, you don't have to smell primer fumes all day, just lead fumes. Those are much healthier.


What is this wood stuff you speak of?

Everything gets laid out on the floor, all the hanger locations get transferred to the ceiling, concrete anchors are installed and all the hangers are in place for an entire floor before any pipe goes in.

Everything is laid out, all the dimensions are known, one guy is cutting iron and the other guy is putting it in the hangers and pushing it into the hubs and packing the oakum, to be followed by the second guy that also pours the joints. When the floor is done and everything double checked for straightness and pitch the joints are packed by the same two man crew.

Installing four inch copper takes a lot more time than hub and spigot cast iron, but it fits in a six inch wall much better than iron does.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Killertoiletspider said:


> What is this wood stuff you speak of?
> 
> Everything gets laid out on the floor, all the hanger locations get transferred to the ceiling, concrete anchors are installed and all the hangers are in place for an entire floor before any pipe goes in.
> 
> ...


Well one guy can run the same amount of pipe your two man crew can in pvc. Give me a lift where I can throw some fittings and pipe, and a cordless hammer drill and ill only need to come down 3 times break, lunch and clean up. 

PVC is so easy commercially it's like cheating.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Oh I forgot a laser or chalk line then you don't need to lay it out on the ground. Just snap lines on deck if smooth crete, hell if it's a pan job don't even need that. 

Since it's easy to cut PVC in the air, you have much less layout times. The only reason you don't see it very often is something else is in the specs. Doesn't mean its not easier.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> What is this wood stuff you speak of?
> 
> Everything gets laid out on the floor, all the hanger locations get transferred to the ceiling, concrete anchors are installed and all the hangers are in place for an entire floor before any pipe goes in.
> 
> ...



Your post brought tears of joy to my eyes
I love you Spiderman, can I be your son :thumbsup:


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

RW Plumbing said:


> Well one guy can run the same amount of pipe your two man crew can in pvc. Give me a lift where I can throw some fittings and pipe, and a cordless hammer drill and ill only need to come down 3 times break, lunch and clean up.
> 
> PVC is so easy commercially it's like cheating.


I can only remember a few jobs that I ran that even allowed PVC, one I remember quite well, I was running a 25 story high rise and the owner of the company called me to tell me he had a commercial building, one of those office/warehouse condo deals, to do out in the suburbs, less than a mile from my house. Asked me if I could spare a crew of 4 from my crew to go out and rough it, that it was going to be CI underground and PVC waste and vent, and if I would stop in there daily to make sure it was going smoothly. I asked for volunteers and got two guys that lived close to that job, a traveller from down south, and a guy from another local as a crew.

I met those guys there on the first day, laid out the underground for them, and told them I would stop by every afternoon around three (this really pissed off the two guys that lived close by, they had already figured on early quits every day). After a week the underground was done and they had already started pouring floors at the other end, so I told the lead guy to get a material list together for the waste and vent and fax it to me and the supply house, when I got the list I noticed they ordered four quarts of PVC cement, and twelve quarts of purple primer, it struck me as odd, but I let it go, I could always return it. I waited two days before visiting that site again, and I nearly had a heart attack when I did.

The first thing I saw when I got there was the traveller from down south bring tools out to the trailer, and I thought it strange that his right hand was purple, but I kept going, I get inside and there is purple everywhere, puddles on the fresh concrete, every fitting was completely purple, and the pipe had six inches of purple on it from every joint, it looked utterly horrible. I ask the lead what the hell happened here, and he shakes his head and says, thats the way it's done down south according to our traveller. When they started the waste and vent he showed up with a mop bucket, proceeded to pour four quarts of primer into it, and started running pipe, by throwing fittings into the bucket, and fishing them back out with his bare hand, and then dipping the piece of pipe into the bucket before using a paint brush to apply the glue.

I replaced the traveller with a third year apprentice, whose first job was to cut out everything that had been installed, we had to pay to have the primer ground out of the concrete, and we lost all future work from the developer.

Had we done the job in cast iron and copper we would have been done a week earlier and kept the future work.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Killertoiletspider said:


> I can only remember a few jobs that I ran that even allowed PVC, one I remember quite well, I was running a 25 story high rise and the owner of the company called me to tell me he had a commercial building, one of those office/warehouse condo deals, to do out in the suburbs, less than a mile from my house. Asked me if I could spare a crew of 4 from my crew to go out and rough it, that it was going to be CI underground and PVC waste and vent, and if I would stop in there daily to make sure it was going smoothly. I asked for volunteers and got two guys that lived close to that job, a traveller from down south, and a guy from another local as a crew.
> 
> I met those guys there on the first day, laid out the underground for them, and told them I would stop by every afternoon around three (this really pissed off the two guys that lived close by, they had already figured on early quits every day). After a week the underground was done and they had already started pouring floors at the other end, so I told the lead guy to get a material list together for the waste and vent and fax it to me and the supply house, when I got the list I noticed they ordered four quarts of PVC cement, and twelve quarts of purple primer, it struck me as odd, but I let it go, I could always return it. I waited two days before visiting that site again, and I nearly had a heart attack when I did.
> 
> ...


No, had you not had a moron working for you that wouldn't have happened. Are you saying that CI and copper are idiot proof? In my experience anything idiot proof is just waiting until you find a better idiot. From the sound of your post, you found him. That's a pretty poor argument. With someone that stupid, who knows if he would have stuck all the CI up his arse or something. You can't blame that kind of stupidity on the material. 

I've seen morons screw up every type of material, but I have to admit, this one takes the cake. I can see how this would sour your perception of the whole situation. You can't blame the PVC for the morons installing it.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

RW Plumbing said:


> No, had you not had a moron working for you that wouldn't have happened. Are you saying that CI and copper are idiot proof? In my experience anything idiot proof is just waiting until you find a better idiot. From the sound of your post, you found him. That's a pretty poor argument. With someone that stupid, who knows if he would have stuck all the CI up his arse or something. You can't blame that kind of stupidity on the material.
> 
> I've seen morons screw up every type of material, but I have to admit, this one takes the cake. I can see how this would sour your perception of the whole situation. You can't blame the PVC for the morons installing it.


That moron was the lead on my deck crew, he could throw fabbed up stack sections in record time, a stack section on that job weighed about two hundred pounds.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Killertoiletspider said:


> I can only remember a few jobs that I ran that even allowed PVC, one I remember quite well, I was running a 25 story high rise and the owner of the company called me to tell me he had a commercial building, one of those office/warehouse condo deals, to do out in the suburbs, less than a mile from my house. Asked me if I could spare a crew of 4 from my crew to go out and rough it, that it was going to be CI underground and PVC waste and vent, and if I would stop in there daily to make sure it was going smoothly. I asked for volunteers and got two guys that lived close to that job, a traveller from down south, and a guy from another local as a crew.
> 
> I met those guys there on the first day, laid out the underground for them, and told them I would stop by every afternoon around three (this really pissed off the two guys that lived close by, they had already figured on early quits every day). After a week the underground was done and they had already started pouring floors at the other end, so I told the lead guy to get a material list together for the waste and vent and fax it to me and the supply house, when I got the list I noticed they ordered four quarts of PVC cement, and twelve quarts of purple primer, it struck me as odd, but I let it go, I could always return it. I waited two days before visiting that site again, and I nearly had a heart attack when I did.
> 
> ...


That is funniest thing I ever heard

The whole crew were morons

First mistake was getting guys to do work with material that they knew nothing about

Can't blame this on the material but the employees lacking knowledge

Sent from my portable office....yes I am at work


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## seanny deep (Jan 28, 2012)

Yah I hate fords cause I ran one with out oil and put gas in my diesel and the Fing think blew up..... The Ford dealer wouldn't warrenty it.....what kind of customer service is that stupid fords. I'm just joking bbut same type of mentality. Seanny


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

seanny deep said:


> Yah I hate fords cause I ran one with out oil and put gas in my diesel and the Fing think blew up..... The Ford dealer wouldn't warrenty it.....what kind of customer service is that stupid fords. I'm just joking bbut same type of mentality. Seanny


 
Damn dude I hate fords too! F'n junk!~ :laughing:





 

Captain OBVIOUS made a statement in that video...


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## slevin0237 (Jan 14, 2012)

*pride*

I am new to the plumbing trade and I will tell you i hear you...I relly thought getting into this trade I was going to be well trained by guys who cared about their work...I have seen the exact opposite...It is all about throwing it in as fast as you can and hold your breath when you test or the inspector comes...It seems like its all about getting it done as fast as you can get the money and run...Just as an example , Right now I am working on the water pipe 1/2"-3/4" hot and cold supply in apartments...I have been told not measure just get it close , do not plumb drops with the level just eyeball...So needless to say it looks like ****...when I protest they say its in the wall and in the ceiling so who gives a **** how it looks...which I guess I can understand but me being the type of guy who does care and has pride in his work its really hard for me to do...The thing is I work for one of the top companies in my area so its not like its some scabby fly by night group...Alot of it is the company managers seeing they can get away with this stuff...Then you have the inspectors , they stroll through in 5 minutes make sure your not leaking and the system is full...I have yet to see one that even had a level checking the pitch...anyway they are letting us run wild and so we are....everything is getting cheaper and cheaper and the worst of it is soon jobs are going to be run by guys like me that are not going to know whats right and whats wrong....its like everything else in America at the moment...nothing is made like it used to be..its all becoming cheap crap...its sad because their are guys out there like me that do want to learn and do care...


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

RW Plumbing said:


> So you braze your joints then. Solder melts in a fire too. Code approved in chicago isnt telling me why copper is better. You're going to have to do better. In a fire BOTH systems fail. Unless you braze the copper.


I think he meant PEX is not fire proof like copper and cast iron. Many commercial buildings require fire proof materials.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

MTDUNN said:


> I think he meant PEX is not fire proof like copper and cast iron. Many commercial buildings require fire proof materials.


Only in Plenum ceilings


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

slevin0237 said:


> I am new to the plumbing trade and I will tell you i hear you...I relly thought getting into this trade I was going to be well trained by guys who cared about their work...I have seen the exact opposite...It is all about throwing it in as fast as you can and hold your breath when you test or the inspector comes...It seems like its all about getting it done as fast as you can get the money and run...Just as an example , Right now I am working on the water pipe 1/2"-3/4" hot and cold supply in apartments...I have been told not measure just get it close , do not plumb drops with the level just eyeball...So needless to say it looks like ****...when I protest they say its in the wall and in the ceiling so who gives a **** how it looks...which I guess I can understand but me being the type of guy who does care and has pride in his work its really hard for me to do...The thing is I work for one of the top companies in my area so its not like its some scabby fly by night group...Alot of it is the company managers seeing they can get away with this stuff...Then you have the inspectors , they stroll through in 5 minutes make sure your not leaking and the system is full...I have yet to see one that even had a level checking the pitch...anyway they are letting us run wild and so we are....everything is getting cheaper and cheaper and the worst of it is soon jobs are going to be run by guys like me that are not going to know whats right and whats wrong....its like everything else in America at the moment...nothing is made like it used to be..its all becoming cheap crap...its sad because their are guys out there like me that do want to learn and do care...


There may be a few things going on here that you just aren't quite understanding. Your perception may be a little different than reality at this point in your career.

Because in trade school you had the time to sit with your level and tape measure and laser and chalk line and whatever else, doesn't mean you have the time in real life to do the same.

I have had apprentices that while their intentions may be good, take for freaking ever to complete the most basic tasks. You absolutely can run basic water lines with your eye. Your supervisor or boss is cringing when you're getting pedantic and measuring twice for something that doesn't matter. If it "Looks like S**t, then you need more practice. You will completely understand when you're the one bidding jobs and writing cheques.

Also, don't underestimate the inspectors ability to see grade on your installs. I know I can spot a drain with back fall from a mile away - it stands out like a sore thumb. 

You summed it up in your last statement in that you don't yet know what's right and what's wrong.

God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason. You say your company is one of the respected ones in town. Instead of spouting off about what you really don't know, how 'bout listening and learning and not slagging your company publicly? 

If you we're working for me and I read this, you'd be looking for work tomorrow.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

MarkToo said:


> There may be a few things going on here that you just aren't quite understanding. Your perception may be a little different than reality at this point in your career.
> 
> Because in trade school you had the time to sit with your level and tape measure and laser and chalk line and whatever else, doesn't mean you have the time in real life to do the same.
> 
> ...


The way I see it it's the almighty dollar attitude you so eloquently displayed in your post that is taking the art and skill outta this trade! Sure as a journeyman I can run water lines without a level and make them look good but to tell an apprentice he should keep his mouth shut and hack it in is absolutely the problem IMHO. There was a time when apprentices were to be trained in exchange for their cheap labor you trained them. Now we have degraded to hack it in like I do apprentice you will learn as you hack.

If he was working for me I would do my best to teach him how to plumb properly and be happy he took pride in his work. I would fire an apprentice that said it's in the wall who cares.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

What in the world do you guys think.... Plumbing was never about putting it in slow ... Along time ago the methods were even more time consuming...and it was always about making a living from you trade

Sent from my miniature laptop


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

deerslayer said:


> I would fire an apprentice that said it's in the wall who cares.



Me too. You missed my point.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

I just can't read the rambling of the group anymore. I think all y'all are fubared. Come to california and I'll show you how to use pex for gas lines. If it holds 150 psi, what's 5 psi gonna do...and it's cheaper.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

MarkToo said:


> There may be a few things going on here that you just aren't quite understanding. Your perception may be a little different than reality at this point in your career.
> 
> Because in trade school you had the time to sit with your level and tape measure and laser and chalk line and whatever else, doesn't mean you have the time in real life to do the same.
> 
> ...


Ouch!!!


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## union brother 1 (Feb 25, 2012)

Dont be that guy..as an apprentice i learned ..your gona work with good and bad.mechanics...learn from both,what to do and what not to do.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

MarkToo said:


> Me too. You missed my point.


The last employee that said "can't see it from my house was given the opportunity to test his theory" :thumbsup:

I was blessed with OCD. I can not let close enough stand....ever. It will keep me awake at night and gnaw away at me until I have to go back and make it right. I expect the same from everyone that works for me. If you get er done guys never learn anything learn this. We are the most expensive and probably the busiest plumbing company around and we got there by being as perfect as perfect can get. Our customers expect a level of excellence that nobody else around here is giving. They expect it, get it and tell their friends and neighbors. I will not work for anyone that wants anything less than perfect. We are not interested in jumping in the muck with the rest of the low rent, low cost hacks that call themselves plumbers. It's bad for business.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> The eye of the beholder would be looking at a portrait.
> 
> The eye of the beer holder would be looking at a picture.
> 
> ...


 Nice one!:thumbup:


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

One of the other reasons for not allowing pex up here in the Chicagoland area is rodents. I still thread and install galvaniuzed pipe, install copper, and install cast iron with poured lead joints.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

This video says it all IMO


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

I do my own electrical work too.:laughing:


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

Don The Plumber said:


> I do my own electrical work too.:laughing:
> 
> Worst Electrical Work Ever - YouTube



That's a huge waste of ammunition for 1/2" copper blow guns...


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