# Bullhead Tee's



## PlumbRob7

hey everyone.. im pretty sure theres no code against bullheading in canada, but have been called on it before by inspector in a potable water system.....wondering what everyones thoughts are on this in any type of systems (heating, venting, potable water)


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## Plumberman

We bullhead whenever we have the need, nothing in code prohibiting here either. I'm curious why you were called to the table on it?


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## plbgbiz

What was the inspector's reason for turning it down on potable water?

By bullhead tee do you mean something like a 1/2 x 1/2 x 3/4 tee with the feed coming in on the 3/4 side of the tee and branching out to the 1/2 on both runs?


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## Tommy plumber

Maybe you were called on undersizing something; and not necessarily "bullheading" as you call it. Did the inspector explicitly tell you that you failed an inspection due to using an approved copper fitting? That doesn't sound right.


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## PlumbRob7

it was a 2 1/2" copper line serving 3 flush valves 10 fu's each..inspectors reason was restriction of flow..and when i say bullheaD i mean i enter the branch of the tee in the direction of flow..i had to sweat it off rotate it 90degrees and threw a 90 on the end and moved one of the runs back to come off the branch


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## plbgbiz

So the inspector believed adding another 90 deg elbow to the system "REDUCED" the restriction of flow? I must be missing something.


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## Tommy plumber

PlumbRob7 said:


> it was a 2 1/2" copper line serving 3 flush valves 10 fu's each..inspectors reason was restriction of flow..and when i say bullheaD i mean i enter the branch of the tee in the direction of flow..i had to sweat it off rotate it 90degrees and threw a 90 on the end and moved one of the runs back to come off the branch


 


So it wasn't that he had a problem with the fitting itself, it was the manner in which it was installed. I wasn't able to visualize what your setup was. Maybe I'm tired.


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## Plumberman

plbgbiz said:


> So the inspector believed adding another 90 deg elbow to the system "REDUCED" the restriction of flow? I must be missing something.


???? I'm lost too. 90s are way more restrictive than a bullheaded tee.


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## Plumber3653

Plbgbiz described a "bull-head". Don't think what you described was a bull-head tee, but I've never had a problem with installing them.( Just don't under size the distribution system and always make provisions for water hammer arrestors if needed on quick acting valves.)


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## PlumbRob7

i think he was getting at a 90 being less restrictive rather than running into the back of a tee, i donno, it was frustrating thanks guys sorry if i confused you lol


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## Plumberman

PlumbRob7 said:


> i think he was getting at a 90 being less restrictive rather than running into the back of a tee, i donno, it was frustrating thanks guys sorry if i confused you lol


Oh, I get what your describing now, but I sill don't see how it would be any more restrictive than a 90, but at last that's why we go around and around with inspectors sometimes!


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## PlumbRob7

to me entering the branch of a tee in the direction of flow is called bullheading


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

3/4
|
|
1/2------- 1/2 


This is a bull headed tee. Very popular with me on copper manifolds. Never had an issue with an inspector, using that tee, any size, any application.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

Damn, the zone edits me once again. Looked good before i hit submit. It is oh so neccassary to edit the Tabs on the post ey?:thumbsup:


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## U666A

Maybe your drawing isn't showing up properly on my iPhone RSP. I have been taught to signify a tee while holding itvin your hand with the branch facing right and identify it by bottom,too, branch (right side). This would be designated as 1/2" X 1/2" X 3/4" for an example of a bullheaded tee where I come from.


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## 130 PLUMBER

I think this is what he was trying to draw


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

1/2
|
|
------3/4
|
|
1/2



is that looking right, let's see..................................


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

U.A.til.I.die said:


> Maybe your drawing isn't showing up properly on my iPhone RSP. I have been taught to signify a tee while holding itvin your hand with the branch facing right and identify it by bottom,too, branch (right side). This would be designated as 1/2" X 1/2" X 3/4" for an example of a bullheaded tee where I come from.



same here, hince, 3/4x1/2x1/2 would be

3/4
|
|
---1/2
|
|
1/2


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## RW Plumbing

First off 2 1/2" pipe is more than enough to feed three flush valves. You could easily get by on 1 1/2" well depending on your WSFU value but it would have to be really really low to not be able to use 2". I don't see any reason that installation would be flagged. It's pressure piping, if your water calcs worked out then it doesn't matter. I've never heard of an inspector flagging pressure fittings unless it was undersized or really sloppy work.


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## RW Plumbing

U.A.til.I.die said:


> Maybe your drawing isn't showing up properly on my iPhone RSP. I have been taught to signify a tee while holding itvin your hand with the branch facing right and identify it by bottom,too, branch (right side). This would be designated as 1/2" X 1/2" X 3/4" for an example of a bullheaded tee where I come from.


Pretty sure that's the right way to call a bullhead tee. I do it that way and it comes out right when I order a tee.


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## Widdershins

PlumbRob7 said:


> it was a 2 1/2" copper line serving 3 flush valves 10 fu's each..inspectors reason was restriction of flow..and when i say bullheaD i mean i enter the branch of the tee in the direction of flow..i had to sweat it off rotate it 90degrees and threw a 90 on the end and moved one of the runs back to come off the branch


 It's not a call I would have made, but if I'm following you correctly, he's essentially right.

I'm not sure how fixtures units are calculated for flushometer valves under your code, but a 1" flushometer valve under my code requires an 1-1/4" feed -- We are required to use a 1-1/4"x1" reducing coupling immediately at the drop ear 90 before we stub out.

Conversely, we would have to do the same at each branch, even if it's only a few inches away from the trunk.


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## U666A

RW Plumbing said:


> Pretty sure that's the right way to call a bullhead tee. I do it that way and it comes out right when I order a tee.


That's what I based it on too. That's how I order them and I get what I'm looking for.

Also, code here delegates fixture units differently depending on if the fixture is being used for public or private use.


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## plumber666

I'd have definitely argued with the inspector over that one.


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## lma1

PlumbRob7 said:


> it was a 2 1/2" copper line serving 3 flush valves 10 fu's each..inspectors reason was restriction of flow..and when i say bullheaD i mean i enter the branch of the tee in the direction of flow..i had to sweat it off rotate it 90degrees and threw a 90 on the end and moved one of the runs back to come off the branch


 
A 2-1/2” Cu line can’t serve 3 FV fixtures with 10 FU each! 10-FU FV fixture is equivalent to 27 WSFU in the BCPC. 3 x 27 = 81 FU and this requires a $ 3” copper pipe.


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## jeffreyplumber

lma1 said:


> A 2-1/2” Cu line can’t serve 3 FV fixtures with 10 FU each! 10-FU FV fixture is equivalent to 27 WSFU in the BCPC. 3 x 27 = 81 FU and this requires a $ 3” copper pipe.


It takes a 3 inch water line to pick up 3 toilets? 10 fu flushometer. Im not sure here 2 inch certainly big enough perhaps 11/2 would work legaly but 3 inch your talking a gang of w/c perhaps 8 or 10


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## lma1

jeffreyplumber said:


> It takes a 3 inch water line to pick up 3 toilets? 10 fu flushometer. Im not sure here 2 inch certainly big enough perhaps 11/2 would work legaly but 3 inch your talking a gang of w/c perhaps 8 or 10


I should first make the following corrections in my original post: “27 WSFU” should read “27 GPM”; “81 FU” should read “81 GPM.”

The flow rate of 8 FV WC’s = 8 x 27.0 GPM/ea = 216.0 GPM and this requires a _$__ 5” pipe Cu feed pipe based on __≤__ 5 FPS flow velocity as required by our Code (due to the acidity of the water here). Any size less than that required wouldn’t be “legal”. The flow rate of 8 tank type WC’c__= 8 x 8.0 = 64 GPM and this requires a 2-1/2” pipe._


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## jeffreyplumber

I dont know where your from but you got some strict sizing codes. Do you have some real low pressure there? How about 2 toilets can you manage 2 10 fu flushometers on a 2 inch line or does that also require 2 1/2 " line. It seems a bit over kill. We have UPC code which one you have?


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## lma1

jeffreyplumber said:


> I dont know where your from but you got some strict sizing codes. Do you have some real low pressure there? How about 2 toilets can you manage 2 10 fu flushometers on a 2 inch line or does that also require 2 1/2 " line. It seems a bit over kill. We have UPC code which one you have?


 
I think I made some math errors here. My apology. The WSFU of 8 FV WC’s is 8 x 10/ea or 80 FU. The conversion to flow rate is 62 GPM and this requires a $2-1/2” Cu feed pipe based on ≤ 5 FPS flow velocity (for CW) as required by our Code (due to the acidity of the water here). Any size less than that would be considered “illegal”. The flow rate of 8 tank type WC is (8 x 6.0 = 48 FU ®) 28.2 GPM and this requires a 2” Cu pipe. 1-1/2” would be marginal. A 2” Cu line would do nicely for 2 FV WC’s in a public place. We must also as a final step check the pressure available to ensure the sizes selected are adequate.

The BCPC I cited earlier is the British Columbia Plumbing Code. It’s the only Code recognized by AHJ’s and plumbing engineers/designers/installers here. We don’t normally use the American plumbing codes like the IPC, UPC & etc.


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## PlumbRob7

2.5" line for 8 flush valves?? I don't think you can size flush valves based out of the bc code or national code.. Other than from the specs provided by the engineer.. You have a flow chart for each municipality for sizing cold water with flush valves


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## jeffreyplumber

I just thought it seemed off. I havent actually sized a system in awhile I know our (upc) counts a branch picking up w/c s differently than other fixtures a branch picking up 1 w/c counts as 40 fu and the following w/c is 30 then 20 then 10 and 5 or more count as 5 fu each. Thats why we cant technicaly run a 1 inch line to even a single w/c its normaly 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 With a reducer just inside the wall or a reducing 90


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## jeffreyplumber

PlumbRob7 said:


> 2.5" line for 8 flush valves?? I don't think you can size flush valves based out of the bc code or national code.. Other than from the specs provided by the engineer.. You have a flow chart for each municipality for sizing cold water with flush valves


If I had 8 flush valves to feed I would have to size it out of course but , I was refering to 3 flush valves supposedly requiring a 3 inch line. And I said a 3 inch line ought to be able to feed a lot more than 3 w/c s. Sorry it just seems like a lot bigger pipe than Ive seen to feed such a small demand.


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## PlumbRob7

Yes that is the same here in BC, you would run 1.25" then reduce to 1"


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## nhmaster3015

Neither the IPC nor the UPC allow bull head tees to be used for potable water supply regardless of sfu.


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## jeffreyplumber

nhmaster3015 said:


> Neither the IPC nor the UPC allow bull head tees to be used for potable water supply regardless of sfu.


Ive heard something about bullheading not being allowed and or not desireable cant remember why. I know on the new hospitol job I was on we bullheaded the drops picking up back to back W/C,s per plans . Never heard of it not to code in UPC area.


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## roving plumber

The UPC does not allow a properly sized tee with the branch being greater than the run to be used in a potable water system?...is this something new?


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## plumbtastic

nhmaster3015 said:


> Neither the IPC nor the UPC allow bull head tees to be used for potable water supply regardless of sfu.


How are we suppose to connect a copper pipe manifold when 5 or 6 copper lines come from the slab if you cant bullhead a tee?


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