# Forced Air



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I will put this in this section as there is no section for it .. 

Here is a before and after shot of one of the jobs today


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

looks good, nice clean work..but where did the water heater go??


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I moved the hot water tank all the way to the left of the room ... You might be able to see the PVC vent running behind the furnace


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Oh ok, I see it now. What kind of water heater did you put in?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Oh ok, I see it now. What kind of water heater did you put in?


Bradford White ... That's all we use ... 8 year warranty ... This is a rental tank that we rent to our customers


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

The new one has pvc venting, is it a power vent?
Why do you rent tanks to customers?


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

Gastite to the furnace!


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> The new one has pvc venting, is it a power vent?
> Why do you rent tanks to customers?


It's power vent HWT

Why do we rent HWT??? Because we charge $ 33.75 per month rental for 10 years ... Then we start all over again with new tank in ten years


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Catlin987987 said:


> Gastite to the furnace!


Why not ?? It's code approved here ... 90 % of gas pipe here is gastite..

Our threader does not leave the shop any more...


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

I like the sheet metal duct. Do you buy it pre-made or do you fabricate your duct?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> I like the sheet metal duct. Do you buy it pre-made or do you fabricate your duct?


We fab our stuff except for perimeter pipe and spiral pipe


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> Why not ?? It's code approved here ... 90 % of gas pipe here is gastite..
> 
> Our threader does not leave the shop any more...


That would be nice, here its frond upon, grey area of code. they usually call us if its gastite to a furnace/ HWT


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Radius throat on the return el flows way more air. 

Looks like the first horizontal on the vent is a little flat.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Catlin987987 said:


> That would be nice, here its frond upon, grey area of code. they usually call us if its gastite to a furnace/ HWT


The gastite is not connected directly to the gas valve inside the furnace ... It's connected on the outside on to black pipe pipe , valve , tee and dirt pocket


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Catlin987987 said:


> That would be nice, here its frond upon, grey area of code. they usually call us if its gastite to a furnace/ HWT


What do they say about package units, like a Trane?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Radius throat on the return el flows way more air.
> 
> Looks like the first horizontal on the vent is a little flat.


Return Air is a different story than supply air ....supply side you will get less restriction using radius bends

Return air is not the same .... Consider this the vacuum side
Supply is the pressure side

Hard to tell from the pictures because I took them from a distance but all venting does have pitch to them


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> It's power vent HWT
> 
> Why do we rent HWT??? Because we charge $ 33.75 per month rental for 10 years ... Then we start all over again with new tank in ten years


That's a 4k powervent. I've never heard of this way to sell water heaters. Is that the way its done up there? How do you make money only collecting 33$ a month.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> That's a 4k powervent. I've never heard of this way to sell water heaters. Is that the way its done up there? How do you make money only collecting 33$ a month.


My cost on HWT is 750.00

At 33.75 x 120 = $ 4,050 collected 

Most installs we would charge 1,350.00 complete on direct purchase


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> My cost on HWT is 750.00
> 
> At 33.75 x 120 = $ 4,050 collected
> 
> Most installs we would charge 1,350.00 complete on direct purchase


What happens of they get behind on payments? Do you go take the wh out?

1350 on direct purchase. Is that total or a deposit? This all just seems like your asking to not get paid the way you charge. I'm assuming that it works for you or you wouldn't do it, but around here we are cod and if we billed this way everybody would have free water heaters.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> What happens of they get behind on payments? Do you go take the wh out?
> 
> 1350 on direct purchase. Is that total or a deposit? This all just seems like your asking to not get paid the way you charge. I'm assuming that it works for you or you wouldn't do it, but around here we are cod and if we billed this way everybody would have free water heaters.


The contract is specific in legal remedies for us ... Every avenue is available ... Never had non payment yet and we are in year number 2 with our rental program ...

We would rent just about anything ... 

It gives us a customer for life ... As no one else can touch our equipment ..


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> The contract is specific in legal remedies for us ... Every avenue is available ... Never had non payment yet and we are in year number 2 with our rental program ...
> 
> We would rent just about anything ...
> 
> It gives us a customer for life ... As no one else can touch our equipment ..


Definitely an interesting business philosophy. I've never heard of anything like it. At least it sounds like you have honorable customers up there. Is this a common practice up there north of the border?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

609 posts from now you'll be able to read all about it in the BizBar.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Definitely an interesting business philosophy. I've never heard of anything like it. At least it sounds like you have honorable customers up there. Is this a common practice up there north of the border?


It's most common in Ontario that your HWT is a rental...

There is large HWT rental companies in Ontario

Reliance .. Direct Energy .. Utility Company's 

This is a no brainer ... These companies are spending large money on advertising to get their customers to rent from them ...

For us ... We are already in the door ... Especially when we change the furnace from mid to high the chimney is to large for the HWT alone ...

Only options are pay for a new liner for the existing HWT or change the tank to power vent...

The tank we took out was a rental from another company ... Lol and replaced it with our rental


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> It's most common in Ontario that your HWT is a rental...
> 
> There is large HWT rental companies in Ontario
> 
> ...


You know... I've never though of that ...since the furnace no longer vents into the chimney it is too large for the wh alone to vent properly. Am I correct on this? This is why this forum is great. I am always learning.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> ...The tank we took out was a rental from another company ... Lol and replaced it with our rental


With what repercussions on the customer? What keeps them from doing that with your product?


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## AWWGH (May 2, 2011)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Definitely an interesting business philosophy. I've never heard of anything like it. At least it sounds like you have honorable customers up there. Is this a common practice up there north of the border?


Culligan rents their water treatment equipment. It does make sense, they own it and the customer will not pay someone else to fix something when they can get it fixed for "free".


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> You know... I've never though of that ...since the furnace no longer vents into the chimney it is too large for the wh alone to vent properly. Am I correct on this? This is why this forum is great. I am always learning.


Well of coarse .. The chimney is originally size for both the furnace and the HWT ... Take one off especially the larger btu furnace now for sure the chimney is to large ... Flue gases will cool and not vent out ... It will actually spill at the draft hood into the room


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

I can't imagine expecting someone to send me a check for $33 or so every month, & actually having them live up to that, every single month for 10 yrs. And someone in your office has to keep track, right? Heck I have a hard enough time collecting rent, for my rental houses, the whole house, these people would look at that $33 bill after a while, & stop paying, or ignore it, & I'd be spending time hounding them. Thats just how I see it going down.

So why not rent the furnace too?

What happens if people sell the house & move, without notifying you?

What happens if the HO passes away?

Is that your great, great grandson in that pic? :laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> With what repercussions on the customer? What keeps them from doing that with your product?


I get the customer to check first if they are at the end of their contract with other rental company ... Usually also ten year .. Difference with other rental company is they will collect rent from that tank until the day it fails ... Could be 15 to 20 years ..


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Don The Plumber said:


> I can't imagine expecting someone to send me a check for $33 or so every month, & actually having them live up to that, every single month for 10 yrs. And someone in your office has to keep track, right? Heck I have a hard enough time collecting rent, for my rental houses, the whole house, these people would look at that $33 bill after a while, & stop paying, or ignore it, & I'd be spending time hounding them. Thats just how I see it going down.
> 
> So why not rent the furnace too?
> 
> ...


The way we try to it is preauthorized payment ... Which means every month we batch out and the bank debits their bank account directly...

Customer has options .. Monthly or quarterly billing either the 1st or the 15 of the month 

Payment in advance .. So if they go quarterly we get that the first month..


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Don The Plumber said:


> I can't imagine expecting someone to send me a check for $33 or so every month, & actually having them live up to that, every single month for 10 yrs. And someone in your office has to keep track, right? Heck I have a hard enough time collecting rent, for my rental houses, the whole house, these people would look at that $33 bill after a while, & stop paying, or ignore it, & I'd be spending time hounding them. Thats just how I see it going down.
> 
> So why not rent the furnace too?
> 
> ...


Here it is the norm that rental contracts are transferable to new owners and the equipment has to be either paid at time of sell or new owner assumes contract .. This has to be disclosed on a sales agreement

This fellow was offered to rent the furnace also but with the new furnaces they get a 10 year manufacture warranty .. So he opted to purchase furnace and rent the HWT


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## plumbcrazy81 (Jun 17, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> Well of coarse .. The chimney is originally size for both the furnace and the HWT ... Take one off especially the larger btu furnace now for sure the chimney is to large ... Flue gases will cool and not vent out ... It will actually spill at the draft hood into the room


I am curious about this also, I know you can have an oversized chimney but
what about in the summer months when the boiler/furnace is inactive? Wouldnt that be the same as only having the HWT in the chimney? How come there wouldn't be spillage from the draft hood during these summer months?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

plumbcrazy81 said:


> I am curious about this also, I know you can have an oversized chimney but
> what about in the summer months when the boiler/furnace is inactive? Wouldnt that be the same as only having the HWT in the chimney? How come there wouldn't be spillage from the draft hood during these summer months?


big difference from the summer months to the winter months...

the atmosphic natural draft equipment is draft because heat rises...

in the summer months no problem...

but in the winter months thats where the problems start...

the chimney is cooler than in the summer...

the flue gases may not rise to exhaust out of the chimeny

the cooler flue gases could possibly spill out of the draft hood..

to large of a chimney and the flue gases cool to the point that they drop rather than rise


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## plumbcrazy81 (Jun 17, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> big difference from the summer months to the winter months...
> 
> the atmosphic natural draft equipment is draft because heat rises...
> 
> ...


Thanks OldSkool! Makes sense. Im actually looking at a job thats almost exactly the same as this. Its an older oil-fired upflow lowboy furnace. Customer already has gas in the house and wants to get rid of the oil. I was going to put in a YORK TG9S, sub out the tin knocking , and oil tank removal. I would cover permit, gas piping, intake and exhaust, condensate etc. Now about this lonely water heater...This post has proven extremely useful thanks again.


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