# Fun estimate



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I'm going this afternoon to do an estimate for a bathroom reno. The first time someone accepts to pay. The woman told me they've been waiting a month for an illegal plumber to show up and want it done now

I don't think I'll be giving a big discount on the quote from my regular rate, all the construction shops in the entire province are still closed for another week.



Well my estimate is going to be fun, the guy only chose one thing for the bathroom and it's a wall hung toilet (Grohe) with a flush valve inside the wall. I've never installed one and the carrier is probably made for 2x4 walls.

Not sure how I'm going to count that, at least 5 hours for the carrier and hopefully when they remove the floor I can reroute the pipe into the wall.

Then theres this free standing tub flush to the wall, it shouldn't be too bad with the new drain contraption where you only drop the tub with the drain tube tail piece into the thing.

To top it off they are hiring a neighbor and seems he's a youngster who's doing most of the other work. They supposedly hired an electrical contractor. I don't know what pitfalls I can get into.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

run like hell away from there...2 reasons..it sounds like a train wreck and how do you know any other people working are properly licensed and insured?? you will be responsible if they are not..and the people already revealed they are cheap $hit customers and will probably burn you in the end..


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> run like hell away from there...2 reasons..it sounds like a train wreck and how do you know any other people working are properly licensed and insured?? you will be responsible if they are not..and the people already revealed they are cheap $hit customers and will probably burn you in the end..


You got me thinking about the insurance. They are acting like a GC when it comes to a reno, and if they hire all the trades themselves technically they need a GC licence. However the ministry don't care about that but it feels like they aren't hiring any other trades either, just this one guy...

If anything goes wrong I'm the only legit contractor maybe the electrician.

Then like you say they may be cheap if they are ready to hire the next door youngster. I saw they bought an ikea floating vanity(those are cheap quality) Hell just a rough estimate the plumbing bid will easily reach 5000-6000 for the rough in and 3500 for the finish, they have heavy glass shower doors to install in that.

You are getting me worried as I should be, I suppose. What would be best, to drive to their place and return the cheque in person?


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

well did you get your price and paid in full yet? you can ask for insurance certificates from the other people they hired and see what the owners say..do you need permits for a bath reno by you? if they get caught do you get fined and put your license in jeopardy? if you were doing all the work your self or you hired the other people then I wouldnt be too worried..


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I just visited them today to see their project, all the walls are stripped and one layer of subfloor removed and all fixtures gone.

I charged 1 hour labour and credit it if they hired me. the 1hr charge is to prepare an estimate where I was going to start tomorrow morning on it and hand it to them in 2 days.

I don't need a permit, but they should get a city permit. I've called the city a month ago about that and it's on them if they don't.

I'm not allowed to hire anyone other than a related trade like a pipe insulator or core driller. I would need to pass just one more exam to have a GC licence and I think I could do the whole job myself except electrical if I wanted to.

I could ask them the insurance from the electrician or their licence number because they didn't say which company and I know the youngster might not be legit and also see their city permit. That will probably eliminate the job. I prefer for it to be cancelled than a can of worms.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Tango said:


> I'm not allowed to hire anyone other than a related trade like a pipe insulator or core driller. I would need to pass just one more exam to have a GC licence and I think I could do the whole job myself except electrical if I wanted to.


I made an error in this statement, if I had a GC licence I could hire all the trades but if I wanted to work by myself I would need a licence for each trade. Most small time GC's here get the licence but don't sub out the work and do it all themselves illegally.


On the flip side when thinking they may be somewhat cheap they have designer plans made. I don't know if they are expensive to make.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

ok, here technically you need a plumbing permit and inspection to change a freaking faucet,,all revenue generating, I do town and county jobs for a contractor , its a low income /senior deal and if I have to change a toilet or any faucet they want a permit and inspection, since you dont need permits on that job just write up your contract to reflect your not responsible for anyones work except your own and the all need their own insurances..I had a friend that was a lawyer write up the small print thats on the backside of my contracts thats almost bullet proof for anything that could happen on a job to protect me, nothing is 100% but you want as much protective writing in it as possible, so if you ended up in court defending yourself you have something in writing and signed by the owner..


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Ok noted. I'll write they are responsible to get a reno permit and responsible for hiring licenced contractors with insurance. 


It will soon pass that contractors need insurance but at the moment they don't have to. I did take one for me. If I get more renos which I doubt I'll get a lot of, I'll need a good contract.

One thing that boggles me, I know Alan answered it, but I still have a hard time understanding the process of getting a permit to change a kitchen faucet and have it inspected? Do you wait in line at city hall getting a permit before going to someones house?? A 250$ install becomes 600$ for the time spent doing extra leg work?


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> Ok noted. I'll write they are responsible to get a reno permit and responsible for hiring licenced contractors with insurance.
> 
> 
> It will soon pass that contractors need insurance but at the moment they don't have to. I did take one for me. If I get more renos which I doubt I'll get a lot of, I'll need a good contract.
> ...



make sure you also put in your contract any fines or fees for any permit they need are their responsibility to pay for and not yours.. 

new york is a strange place to work, there is no state plumbing license , every municipality has there own almost, most of the smaller municipalities reciprocate to the larger town licenses, and that is just in the country you are working for, then some counties have their own license and then the smaller towns in that country have their own licenses ..the county I live in has over 45 municipalities, towns, villages that require their own licenses and at an average of $100 to $200+ a year in license fees it adds up in fees just to be able to work in those areas..unless its a town or county job noone gets permits for the small stuff like faucet and bowl replacement, and only file if the job has a building permit then you need a plumbing permit and the electrician needs a permit as well..example , I did a bathroom remodel for a contractor , it was a town job, just a basic 3 piece bathroom nothing moving just changing from a tub to a shower base, toilet and vanity in same location, not alot of new piping..$170.00 plumbing permit, $170.00 building permit and the electrician had to file a permit unknown $$, and the plumbing inspector was more concerned that the house had smoke and carbon dioxide detectors and if not he wouldnt do the inspection...and people wonder why the high prices to get work done...this one town you drop off the permit with a blank check, they tell you how much it will be and then when the inspector has the time he fills out the check and you get back in the mail the permit, other towns or villages you wait and pay at the time you submit the permit and yes lots of time wasted on that, and new york city is a whole different animal, im not licensed there but have a few friends that are, and they pay a service to file permits for jobs, then upstate new york..there are no plumbing inspectors, just maybe in some big cities, otherwise its a free for all on who is doing the plumbing....


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Wow what a mess with companies with who the F cares.

Last year I needed a city business permit(300$) but they removed it this year because my office is home.
For me 1000$ the first year then 500$ after that for the contractor license (annually)
1050$ to be a Master Pipe Mechanic member to be allowed to plumb (annually)
50$ Bond (annually)

Soon it will be mandatory to have insurance to cover materials instead of a material bond.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

I keep my main licenses from the larger towns and counties and a few villages i work alot in and that runs several thousand $$$ each year and if I have a big enough job in other ares ill get their license, many of the villages are money hungry and charge $400+ for the first year and then $150.00 or so the next year, if you let it expire it goes back up to the $400+ if you take the license out again, they want you to keep paying each year, and thats just to allow you to work in that area not including permit fees...its all about revenue not much about inspecting..now many of the towns and I agree with it, wants to fine licensed plumbers covering non licensed guys wanting to do plumbing work..I think the fines start 2 or 3 thousand$$..


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Fines for companies that do work outside their licence fines start at 15 000$ plus what ever fees. example you have a plumbing licence and you replace a gas water heater you'd need a gas licence plus the plumbing one.

An individual who does plumbing(a hack) I think starts at 5000$ plus what ever fees. I already posted those before but the memory isn't always accurate.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> Fines for companies that do work outside their licence fines start at 15 000$ plus what ever fees. example you have a plumbing licence and you replace a gas water heater you'd need a gas licence plus the plumbing one.
> 
> An individual who does plumbing(a hack) I think starts at 5000$ plus what ever fees. I already posted those before but the memory isn't always accurate.



where i am the one plumbing license covers all that, im sure there are specialized licenses most likely in new york city for maybe high pressure steam and dangerous stuff like that..


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> where I am the one plumbing license covers all that, im sure there are specialized licenses most likely in new york city for maybe high pressure steam and dangerous stuff like that..


We have 5 licences related to plumbing 2x gaz, heating and one other


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I just phoned the woman for the estimate, she was all happy and wanted me to start tomorrow if I could. Then she did the calculations and said I was 2000$ higher than a legit plumber who promised her for months he was going to start but didn't show up and now gone on vacation. All of a sudden she wasn't happy anymore and says he's ready to start next monday... she'll call back. I bet she's going to call the othe guy

We'll see what happens next.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> We have 5 licences related to plumbing 2x gaz, heating and one other



ouch.....and each one costs you how much each year?


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

One fee for all licences. I have 13 other licences that I applied for without taking an exam like doors and windows, siding, interior finishing, installing tv cables or phone cables etc. Pretty much useless for me but they were "free".

Anyway I checked out my competitor and got his plumbing licence in January of this year and he's got a review, 31 march, he took the money and didn't finish a reno. That starts well!


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## canuck92 (Apr 1, 2016)

Why would someone put a wall hung w.c in there house. 2x4 wall for a carrier doesnt sound like fun at all. I would give them a high price cause i wouldnt really want to do it to begin with, and if i did get it, atleast its good profit.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I'd like to see the other guy do this thing. 1/8 off on the rough can result in a big gap on the finish and wobbly stuff that looks bad. I don't want to sound like I'm bragging but these things to be perfect you got to spend a lot of time doing it right. The last 24 stories luxury condos I did, I was the only chosen one out of the 24 guys to do the luxury shower faucets and drilling the tubs and installing the faucets on them. I also got the only custom water contraption inlaid in concrete on the top floor.

I gave a price I know it will take more time than a regular toilet, take a look at the water adjustment in the pictures. 

What's strange is that I'm ready to work, I showed up(he's absent for months), I unboxed their stuff to check it out, I drew where to cut the floors to repipe and they cut it while I was preparing my estimate. I have a very detailed website and reviews and she wasn't happy I was more expensive and are going to call back?? We'll see if they hire him how he does and asks for more money in the process. Maybe they still want to wait for the cheaper guy.









































Tub with an extra drain to who knows where!!


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Wow greedy municipalities

Illinois you have 2 plumbing licenses. One for the State & the other for the "Country" of Chicago period. It is Illegal by the License Law (which is State Law by public act) to charge a plumber for a license which is regulated by the State. Now they may get by with requiring a "registration" and a bond.

Gas is not regulated by a license.

Since Electrical codes are not State mandated anyone can generally play electrician, although some municipalities do and can require an electrical license.

Only really 3 things in Illinois the State mandates, Plumbing license, Roofing license, Energy raters (IECC)

Like that wall mounted W.C. Keep the rough-in and finish pictures coming.

That tub may not pass in Illinois. Maximum 24" from appurtenance outlet to trap except a washer where 48" is allowed.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

GAN said:


> That tub may not pass in Illinois. Maximum 24" from appurtenance outlet to trap except a washer where 48" is allowed.


Can you rephrase that, I don't understand. Do you mean the corrugated overflow tube cannot be longer than 24"? Thinking about it the overflow should be all smooth inside like a regular pipe but then a dishwasher outlet hose is corrugated too.

Nowadays reading an article we have to be careful as fixtures like this bath tub and plumbing parts can have fake certification logos and numbers!


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## exclamation (Mar 11, 2013)

Never mind the drain length - corrugated tubing wouldn’t fly here because drain pipes must have a smooth wall surface - therefore, to me, it looks like a really $hitty expensive tub lol


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

exclamation said:


> Never mind the drain length - corrugated tubing wouldn’t fly here because drain pipes must have a smooth wall surface - therefore, to me, it looks like a really $hitty expensive tub lol


What about a dishwasher outlet hose that comes with the machine? What about the corrugated drain hose for a washing machine? I never heard they had to be replaced even when they are new. Also in my code book retailers are not allowed to sell merchandise and parts that aren't code approved. So these two things wouldn't be sold that way with corrugated pipe.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Tango said:


> What about a dishwasher outlet hose that comes with the machine? What about the corrugated drain hose for a washing machine? I never heard they had to be replaced even when they are new. Also in my code book retailers are not allowed to sell merchandise and parts that aren't code approved. So these two things wouldn't be sold that way with corrugated pipe.


I think dishwashers and wash machines can use corrugated because they are discharge lines not drains. Drains are gravity, discharge lines are pumped.


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## exclamation (Mar 11, 2013)

Not sure exactly how much dw and wm fall under plumbing code being appliances - certainly somewhat since they are connected to potable water supply so technically they are plumbing apurtinaces, but anyway, yes the discharge hoses for those are the only exception that I know of.


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## exclamation (Mar 11, 2013)

Good call on the pumps Debo - maybe that is the only reason corrugated is considered acceptable there?


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Got a call back and she now claims I was 3500$ higher than the others and she's hiring another company. All of a sudden she says she got 4 other free estimates and I was the only one charging for it. Well yes you were informed on the phone about the fee and signed twice my work order.

Wow, talk about that! I'm glad I charged for it and cashed the checque, someone getting 5 estimates! It took me 5 hours to count everything.

With estimates that low they are either working lower than what a certified employee costs or they have kids at 14$/hr without any plumbing school degree or trade certificate?

Or they ask more money during work or they under estimated by a lot?

I'll be sending an simplified estimate by email to her request.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> I'd like to see the other guy do this thing. 1/8 off on the rough can result in a big gap on the finish and wobbly stuff that looks bad. I don't want to sound like I'm bragging but these things to be perfect you got to spend a lot of time doing it right. The last 24 stories luxury condos I did, I was the only chosen one out of the 24 guys to do the luxury shower faucets and drilling the tubs and installing the faucets on them. I also got the only custom water contraption inlaid in concrete on the top floor.
> 
> I gave a price I know it will take more time than a regular toilet, take a look at the water adjustment in the pictures.
> 
> ...



why did you do all that work with no signed contract? or did you get paid for laying out the holes and checking out the materials?
I would charge an arm and leg to install that thing, and I would have the owner sign before installation on what the thickness of the finished wall will be so if they tell you a measurement with sheet rock and tile and it ends up bigger or smaller you are covered..


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> What about a dishwasher outlet hose that comes with the machine? What about the corrugated drain hose for a washing machine? I never heard they had to be replaced even when they are new. Also in my code book retailers are not allowed to sell merchandise and parts that aren't code approved. So these two things wouldn't be sold that way with corrugated pipe.


as said above they are being used with a pump, also in my area the inspectors will accept whatever piping is part of the fixture, example, the supply lines that are integral to a faucet even though they dont meet code are accepted as there is no way to change them, some are now material coated and not stainless steel braid, alot of the kitchen faucets with pull out heads have that...seems every company wants to go cheaper with junk plastic parts, it lats long enough till the warranty is over, and even there the customer has to pay labor to fix the $3.00 free part the company mails to you for replacement...


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> why did you do all that work with no signed contract? or did you get paid for laying out the holes and checking out the materials?
> I would charge an arm and leg to install that thing, and I would have the owner sign before installation on what the thickness of the finished wall will be so if they tell you a measurement with sheet rock and tile and it ends up bigger or smaller you are covered..



The way they were talking to me seemed like I was the chosen one already. No mention of other bids and wanted to start asap.

I checked the materials so see what I was getting into so I could figure out how much time it was going to take.

You have a point, I shouldn't have marked the floor, its a lesson learned!


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I would charge an arm and leg to install that thing,


Looks like my bid was an arm and a leg compared to the others! :vs_whistle:


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> The way they were talking to me seemed like I was the chosen one already. No mention of other bids and wanted to start asap.
> 
> I checked the materials so see what I was getting into so I could figure out how much time it was going to take.
> 
> You have a point, I shouldn't have marked the floor, its a lesson learned!


WC fields said it the best" a sucker born every minute and 2 to take em"...they could of just been using you for useful free info and never had any intention of using you..I looked at a dormer bathroom on a 2nd floor, when I pulled up I could see a bunch of pvc and copper under a tarp in the driveway, the people were asking 100 questions on how the piping was going to be run and anything else on roughing the bathroom, I knew something was up and told them once I have a deposit and signed contract I would explain everything, and I mentioned the pipes in the driveway and they stated they were going to try and do it themselves but decided to hire someone, yeah bull$hit, all they were doing was looking for free plumbing lessons from each plumber they called in, im sure some sap spent hours explaining everything only to find out he was the fool that fell for it..as rick keeps stating on the tv show pawn stars" not that I dont trust you, I trust noone" and thats how I go about my business...


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> WC fields said it the best" a sucker born every minute and 2 to take em"...they could of just been using you for useful free info and never had any intention of using you..I looked at a dormer bathroom on a 2nd floor, when I pulled up I could see a bunch of pvc and copper under a tarp in the driveway, the people were asking 100 questions on how the piping was going to be run and anything else on roughing the bathroom, I knew something was up and told them once I have a deposit and signed contract I would explain everything, and I mentioned the pipes in the driveway and they stated they were going to try and do it themselves but decided to hire someone, yeah bull$hit, all they were doing was looking for free plumbing lessons from each plumber they called in, im sure some sap spent hours explaining everything only to find out he was the fool that fell for it..as rick keeps stating on the tv show pawn stars" not that I dont trust you, I trust noone" and thats how I go about my business...


For one hour work since I charged 1hr labor rate I was paid pretty well to draw pencil lines in their bathroom! :biggrin:

The 5 hours it took to do my estimate will be useful for the next one as I only have to subtract the carrier.

Like I said they will get a super simple 4 line estimate by email even though they are going with someone else. Something is up with that too, but maybe like you say are looking for free info?



As I'm posting this I've been called 5 times today for free estimates for all kinds of work. Sheesh!


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