# Whatda ya think?



## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

3 plumbers were called to this guys house...The call was for intermitent operation of the tankless heater. The 3rd guy couldn't figure it out but gave the HO my number...I have no idea who the guy is.

I get there and run my test...the unit is filthy. Piss poor installation. Fan was dirty . gas jets were loaded...etc..etc... So I clear it all out, than I flush the unit. I am about half way done and I start running more test on it. Problem seems to be with the gas valves not working...I test the coils...it's good. Now I'm thinking..hmmm, leme test the gas pressure, load up the manometer .....standing I have 8.8" if WC. Unit fires and it drops to ZERO. Whoa, I never seen that before. Instantly I go to the kitchen and lite a burner...it fires, I lite the second it fires too, but the flam on the first burner went down a little...I did the same with all four and gas was barley comming out....I pull the supply line off the unit and open the valve and it's just barley pissin out.....I figured it out! Why 3 other plumbers couldn't do this, I will never know.

Head out to the meter and it;s loaded with bugs.
Open up a tee and the meter is delivering tons of gas.

Walk 40 feet (straight) to the service riser and all that was present was a union....no shutoff valve.

I remove the union and can barley feel / hear gas.

Riser is a rusted 3/4" galvi and the meter box had 1" going into the soil.

Meter is in the sidewalk.

So I figure this.....The line has rusted itself almost completely closed.
Now, I noted the change in size of the pipe...not uncommon, but still a thought, and I also note no shutoff valve at service riser. That tells me some hack did this line or had something to do with it. In either event I had to get back to another job.

Talk to home owner later on, tells me that gas line was installed 3 years ago, and was some form of Scotch coated IP. said some guy from some drain company put it in and it was permitted......

OK, so here's the next part of this....The line has a small leak. I capped off the riser and marked a spinner....20 minutes later it was in a different spot. Next, the HO's had just returned from a 5 week vacation, no one was in the home the entire time, the unit was working when they left, but is not since they got home a few days ago.

So if the line hasn't rusted shut (I doubt that is it now that I know it's a new service) I have only one other thought....Buildup of moisture or oil residue in the line. Doesn't explain the small leak, but does of the poor output. I am most likley going to replace it and size it correctly than spending 3-4 hours troubleshooting an undersized leaking gas service. BUT for shYts and giggles....what could cause this?


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Sounds like you definitely have a leak (spinner) ,,, on a cracked fitting ?? The pressure thing --- COULD these bugs have gotten into the line and built nest ? Have seen that with orifices . however , can't see how they would on a main line . 

Man , I'm stumped . Keep us informed please !


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## Christina (Jul 14, 2009)

Tankless said:


> Riser is a rusted 3/4" galvi and the meter box had 1" going into the soil.


 That is a new one for me!! The minimum size of NG yard line allowed here is 1-1/4". The type of gas meter that we deal with here is 'never' in the sidewalk. (Example of ours: http://www.cleanenergyresourceteams...focus_images/utility_shutterstock_2893894.jpg)


Do you know that the line is new because 'you' replaced it?
If not, I have replaced several poly gas lines (indicating the lines are not 'that' old) that the IP risers have rusted out on, the water is allowed to fill the line but is not under (water) pressure, therefore over time gas bubbles can pass through and pressurize the house. This would explain why the rush on the stove, then the die down. Here, the pressure is reduced to ounces at the meter. The homeowner may say that it is a new yard line, but was this line put in my a licensed plumber? If not, and the yard line is poly, I am willing to bet they used a fusion riser with a compression coupling and they failed to wrap the coupling. If this is indeed your problem, easy fix... replace the risers.

I hope all that made sense as it is 6:30 in the morning and I am rushing through to head out the door.

:confused1: This is the only answer that I can possibly think of being that you get no pressure at the house riser. You have to get the pressure there before going into the house. Definately interested in what you find to be the problem.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Any way to take it loose at both ends and put compressed air on it?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

High pressure gas system or low pressure? We have talked about moisture in gas lines before but you claim C.A has dry gas. Ok I would blow the gas line out with compressed air betwen the meter and the union at the house.Wth compressed air check the same section of line for a leak. It is possible to have a bad meter/pressure regulator and you may very well have one or the other or both. My best guess is a water logged low pressure gas line with a leak....allowing moisture/water into the system. Its either water in the line with a leak.....or a bad meter/regulator.

Bugs get into the regulators vent at the meter???? It should have a screen over the vent but does it???? Its a long shot but its possible.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

How much of a leak do you have? if you disconnected the line at the house and capped/plugged it and then turned the gas back on and that section is water logged the meter may show a leak as the gas bubbles through the water slowly and then fully pressurizes. I'd like to know the amout of leak expressed in Cu.Ft per hour. Time it for 20 minutes and then multiply that amount by 3 to arrrive at an hourly loss.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

That's where I left off with the client, I will make up each end and test the line. If it has a leak....I'm just going to replace it. If it holds, and there is nothing in the line, I'll call the gas company. I don't know how to test a regulator / meter for proper pressure supply. I haden't thought of that being the issue, I just assumed there is something in the line....will take some pics and get it squared up. Thanks


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Your on the right track. I'd just hate for you to replace the line and then find out it wss moisture and a bad regulator/meter. Please let us know what you find! And is it low or high presssure??????


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## leak1 (Mar 25, 2009)

master mentioned bugs in the regulator vent-make sure you check that! ive had several jobs that was problem with the pressure.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

If it is a low pressure line and there is a leak underground and has been raining it is more than likely water in the line and a lot of it.

It has been years since we have ran any scotch coated pipe so the line may be older than 3 years.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Christina is right it could be a plastic service with risers.


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## Christina (Jul 14, 2009)

Did you test the yard line yet?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I installed some fusion bond gas piping last year. This stuff has a lime green finish fused right into the metal piping and has been installed for years in my area.

I also had to coat any part of the piping with a special sealing that did have this covering, and an anode bag was attached to the piping to keep it from corroding. I removed a gastite gas line that was attached to the deck and ran to a pool heater. It was leaking in 4 locations. I ended up tapping off a line leading to the furnace inside, drilled a hole out the wall and installed maybe 10' of this expensive piping underground. The gas company wanted me to install tow normac risers and do the transitions between the two spots in PE, and I asked them why they still to this day install fusionbond underground. 




It was done with the superb notion that I overkilled the application. I was concerned that the location of the pipe and the depth would cause more problems than fixes. 

Too many people do not take the extra steps to protect.


This stuff was pretty tough stuff; couldn't thread the pipe without grinding this finish off the pipe. Hardest earned 1 day pay in a loooooong time.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Forgive not posting the pics, they are in my cell phone, and I am just wiped out right now.

So I made it back over there and pulled the riser in the meter box (1"). I noted no liquid at all in the pipe. I blew air in the line from the service entrance and checked the results. There was this white chalky shyit in there...and a fair amount of it. Best I could describe it was like ahhh....like dish washer detergent. It sorta looked like a bunch of dried up pipe dope that was ground in a blender. It smelled like hot axel grease....kinda like a big rig.

So I blew out as much that would come out and I capped the line. I put my test gauge on and started to fill the line. LOL....

So I have my compressor set to 130PSI and I leave it wide open...
I start to fill the line and the needle deflects to about 5 pounds and that's it. I pull the air off, and the needle immeaditly falls back to zero....Fill it again and it can't sustain anything. I clean up, put the piping back together and wrote up a bill, that has an estimate for a new service.

Few things to note. The pipe that I could see was not 2 or 3 years old.....it was very old. There was a famous thread protector in the service entrance make up, no shut off valve. No visiable pipe protection in the meter box.....

This was permitted and signed off? Something stinks with this one. This isn't some silly cracked fitting, this is a full blown rupture. How the hell does a permitted gas service fail in a few years? Scotch coat........galvi wrapped with 10 mil.....shyit even black pipe wrapped would have lasted much much longer than this.

Now it's gonna cost this guy 3 grand before he can get hot water, dry his clothes, cook on the stove.......He is military and a local police officer....5 kids, I am so busy I can't even think about touching it until sometime mid next week and that's a stretch.

You guys are gonna love how the CO at the tie in was done, I took a pic of it....funny as all hell.


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