# Question for you guys on the west coast....



## UA22PLumber (Sep 17, 2012)

Which no-hub bands do you use in seismic applications?


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Standard No Hub couplings (ASTM C 564, CISPI 310) meet most California seismic requirements.
ASTM C 1540 (Husky 4000 or Clampall 80) are required in many institutional applications (schools, hospitals), otherwise they are occasionally specified by plumbing engineers.
Why do you ask?
Expecting a big temblor in Buffalo any time soon?


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Seismic bracing is more critical than what couplings are used. 
Google "seismic bracing" and you'll have plenty to read on the subject.


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## srloren (Nov 19, 2014)

*Something to think about...*

Be sure to get the ones that have a money back guarantee. I live on the coast and am still waiting to fall into the Pacific. My Sister-in-Law lives in north eastern Oklahoma and they are shaking like never before so I think the guy in Buffalo has plenty to be worried about. It's coming your way...


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

if no hubs break because of a tremor, thats the least of my worries


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## UA22PLumber (Sep 17, 2012)

New hospital going up, and due to IBC 2012 changes and geotechnical reports...this is a seismic job. 

I got curious about the no-hub bands(we use Husky 4000's on everything), after our seismic consultants wouldn't let us use our standard PHD concrete embeds for their braces...the shear load on 1/2" j-bolts wasn't enough...

Seismic requirements are pretty rare around here, but I guess there's a pretty decent fault line in our vicinity...think that's how Niagara falls was formed.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

srloren said:


> Be sure to get the ones that have a money back guarantee. I live on the coast and am still waiting to fall into the Pacific. My Sister-in-Law lives in north eastern Oklahoma and they are shaking like never before so I think the guy in Buffalo has plenty to be worried about. It's coming your way...


"the disposal of drilling wastewater used in fracking has now been scientifically linked to earthquakes"
http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/tag/earthquake/


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

srloren said:


> Be sure to get the ones that have a money back guarantee. I live on the coast and am still waiting to fall into the Pacific. My Sister-in-Law lives in north eastern Oklahoma and they are shaking like never before so I think the guy in Buffalo has plenty to be worried about. It's coming your way...


There is a reason why Oklahoma is shaking.
http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/tag/earthquake/
http://www.earthworksaction.org/issues/detail/fracking_earthquakes#.VUUmnzizlCo


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

In the news today, earthquake near Kalmalzoo Michigan this morning..


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

UA22PLumber said:


> Which no-hub bands do you use in seismic applications?


Here in Los Angeles California we have to use these special certified "earthquake rated" flexible couplings that move with the ground movement to keep the pipe together.


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## CT18 (Sep 18, 2012)

I did some seismic in a hospital back in 2003 and it had to do with bracing of the piping more than connections. I had a lot of uni strut and cable braces to install after piping was up in the ceilings.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

sierra2000 said:


> Here in Los Angeles California we have to use these special certified "earthquake rated" flexible couplings that move with the ground movement to keep the pipe together.
> 
> 
> View attachment 51161


I've seen too many of those Bandseal, Fernco type couplings fail.
I'm surprised you use them rather than these.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Plumbus said:


> I've seen too many of those Bandseal, Fernco type couplings fail. I'm surprised you use them rather than these.


Oh those are a BIG NO NO out here. The slightest 3.0 earthquake will pull what you use right apart.
You gotta use them special "earthquake rated" couplings. Especially if the pipe is buried 20' deep with all the weight of the dirt on it.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Plumbus said:


> I've seen too many of those Bandseal, Fernco type couplings fail.
> I'm surprised you use them rather than these.


Those are what I use.


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## buffaloPlumber (Jun 26, 2012)

Plumbus said:


> I've seen too many of those Bandseal, Fernco type couplings fail. I'm surprised you use them rather than these.


That's what I use...I guess buffalo is safe if they all follow suit!


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Fernco's are for homeowners, shielded band no hub clamps are for plumbers


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

plumbdrum said:


> Fernco's are for homeowners, shielded band no hub clamps are for plumbers


I already know that you think anyone that uses pex is a hack, but I am curious about the ferncos though. What makes a thin rubber shielded mechanical joint that much better than a fernco coupling?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

The outer stainless steel band holds the rubber and pipe in the proper alignment, a fernco , while a thicker rubber can move, bend , therefore putting pipes out of alignment and also a possible failure. Most codes do not approve this product


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> T . Most codes do not approve this product


With good reason. As well as pipe separating from the coupling I've seen Ferncos actually rip apart.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Plumbus said:


> With good reason. As well as pipe separating from the coupling I've seen Ferncos actually rip apart.



Yup, that too


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Plumbus said:


> With good reason. As well as pipe separating from the coupling I've seen Ferncos actually rip apart.


If the no hub or ferco coupling get pulled apart, it wasn't installed properly.. that's why they came up with this bs adt code..


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

tim666 said:


> I already know that you think anyone that uses pex is a hack, but I am curious about the ferncos though. What makes a thin rubber shielded mechanical joint that much better than a fernco coupling?



I've never said that I think that anyone who uses pex is a hack, I'm just as guilty of using it. Some people make it look like spaghetti , others make look as good as pex can look. I understand to stay competitive you have to use material that some of us would probably choose not to use. I wish every job could be done in copper but those days are gone. Pex away my friend, just don't add meatballs to the spaghetti


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## Grimmeute (May 8, 2012)

plumbdrum said:


> I've never said that I think that anyone who uses pex is a hack, I'm just as guilty of using it. Some people make it look like spaghetti , others make look as good as pex can look. I understand to stay competitive you have to use material that some of us would probably choose not to use. I wish every job could be done in copper but those days are gone. Pex away my friend, just don't add meatballs to the spaghetti


pex should look like?


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

plumbdrum said:


> I've never said that I think that anyone who uses pex is a hack, I'm just as guilty of using it. Some people make it look like spaghetti , others make look as good as pex can look. I understand to stay competitive you have to use material that some of us would probably choose not to use. I wish every job could be done in copper but those days are gone. Pex away my friend, just don't add meatballs to the spaghetti


I am not exactly computer savvy but this is what you posted back in January




Pex is all hack anyways, doesn't matter who installs it. While I will agree it is a fine material and speeds up the job, it has taken away the craftsmanship aspect of our trade.so at this point whoever is installing Pex, your all as equal as the next plumber in your craft.😆😆👍👍


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Well ya got me, no denying a quote now, but like I said in now both quotes I still feel is true. I've used plenty of pex when I was I Business and hated every install. Now I've done pex jobs that look good (for pex) until the hot water takes that effect away. You have to spend to much time putting extra talons on to make it look remotely as good as a copper system, maybe fostapex could possibly look good. Pex has never met my craftsmanship needs. I understand again that we are all forced into using this material , and I'm just as guilty has a " hack" with this crap. Maybe I doesn't to many years making Artwork with copper and I've got a chip on my shoulder with this stuff, I know it's here to stay. On a positive note I don't have to install it anymore. By no means did I mean to call a plumber a "hack" , I just feel the material is, my opinion


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## Mykeeb33 (Mar 6, 2015)

sierra2000 said:


> Here in Los Angeles California we have to use these special certified "earthquake rated" flexible couplings that move with the ground movement to keep the pipe together.
> 
> 
> View attachment 51161


Those look like fernco couplings. They don't like us using those inside the structure. I like the Husky 2000 couplings. They have 5/16" nuts. The 4000's have 3/8" nuts.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Mykeeb33 said:


> Those look like fernco couplings. They don't like us using those inside the structure. I like the Husky 2000 couplings. They have 5/16" nuts. The 4000's have 3/8" nuts.


Those are fernco, I wasn't serious about them being required out here or earthquake rated. 
I learned my lesson and stopped using them after having to dig up 2 separate ditches on my dime that were 9' deep and the other just 6' deep. Now if the ditch is less than 2' deep I will still use them if I need to.


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## plumberN8 (Apr 19, 2015)

plumbdrum said:


> The outer stainless steel band holds the rubber and pipe in the proper alignment, a fernco , while a thicker rubber can move, bend , therefore putting pipes out of alignment and also a possible failure. Most codes do not approve this product


I am pretty sure new ipc codes state pipes do not need to be aligned, lately it seems like people I work with use their smartphone more than their level. Sadly craftsmanship is nearly a thing of the past, the butchers union is taking over


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