# Water heater lifter and safety. Thoughts?



## DDDave (Aug 6, 2014)

I think something's been worked out here, and I'd like to hear about it.
The photo is a screenshot taken of an experienced guy (me) placing a 65 gallon Kenmore tank into a pan in a raised position.
There are plenty of jobsites it won't help, so it's not magic...


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

If this was a gif, everybody would know what you're talking about.


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## DDDave (Aug 6, 2014)

Quote: "If this was a gif, everybody would know what you're talking about."

Huh? Say it a different way, pls


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

A gif is a series of pictures that replicates a video. 

I can't figure out how you got it up on that stand with that dolly.


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## Green Country (Mar 6, 2009)

I can only see one pic. What's that yellow thing hanging from your pocket?


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Can only see one pic too.

The yellow thing is a mapp gas torch.


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## Green Country (Mar 6, 2009)

chonkie said:


> The yellow thing is a mapp gas torch.


Oh, so the expansion rings shrink back quicker?


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Green Country said:


> Oh, so the expansion rings shrink back quicker?


No, so he can solder together copper.

By the way, were you joking?


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## Green Country (Mar 6, 2009)

chonkie said:


> No, so he can solder together copper.


Is that the old shiny pipe that shark bites are for?


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## Green Country (Mar 6, 2009)

Even just from the one pic I like the idea. Basically pivoting it on the dilly to get the bottom up. Can you move the dolly with the heater up like that pretty easily?


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Is the triangle looking piece with your right hand in the center a pivoting part of the dolly or is it something hanging off the pegboard?


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## DDDave (Aug 6, 2014)

plumberkc said:


> A gif is a series of pictures that replicates a video.
> 
> I can't figure out how you got it up on that stand with that dolly.



Got it!


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## DDDave (Aug 6, 2014)

*The big tanks can be a little "army"...*



Green Country said:


> Even just from the one pic I like the idea. Basically pivoting it on the dilly to get the bottom up. Can you move the dolly with the heater up like that pretty easily?


Ya, moving the hand truck top-loaded is pretty easy. As long as I keep the weight forward of the axle. The kit was designed-refined-built to help make that happen.
It's not limited to forward/ backward motion, either. The rig can be turned and adjusted to angled approaches.
Where I work, most installations require some sort of putting the tank up and over or onto/into something. Tight spaces are not uncommon. Still finding things it'll do.


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## Green Country (Mar 6, 2009)

It was a kit? Something you bought? Can you post a link and maybe some closer pics of it?


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## DDDave (Aug 6, 2014)

*don't want to get too wordy*



Green Country said:


> It was a kit? Something you bought? Can you post a link and maybe some closer pics of it?











It is a kit, but not something I bought. Had it built. Just wore out my fifth prototype hand truck, now I'm using one from "inventory". Don't have a link to share, as my web guy told me he was having major surgery. But this is a legitimate thing, pending what folks out there think.
Regarding pics, this is one of the best I have. Let me know if I can do better...
There is a water heater lifter channel on YouTube. Was a bit shocked it wasn't there when I first went looking...


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Don't think this guy is a plumber at all... just a water heater company only


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## DDDave (Aug 6, 2014)

*Ah yes,*



rjbphd said:


> Don't think this guy is a plumber at all... just a water heater company only


I don't appreciate your comment. 

I do water heaters, which my profile discloses. 

And I do them well. I am excellent at customer service, and I make money. Meathead am I? That's a nickname I like. In any case I'm an adult, sir.

I also designed and built a hand truck from nothing for my own pleasure. Look at my photo albums. Read. Ask good questions.

You've been practicing your trade for a long time. This is a new tool that may not apply so much in your area.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

DDDave said:


> I don't appreciate your comment.
> 
> I do water heaters, which my profile discloses.
> 
> ...



Nothing wrong with only doing water heaters, as long as you are a licensed Master Plumber.


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## DDDave (Aug 6, 2014)

*taking out the trash*



plumberkc said:


> Nothing wrong with only doing water heaters, as long as you are a licensed Master Plumber.











Yessir, that type of company would eventually go away if full-service guys could head to a water heater job knowing it'll be physically safer/easier than before. Or owners could send techs without worrying, or dispatching a second man (which is usually a money loser).

Looked at your album. Gorgeous, seriously. Don't see any application for this method, though. It's good mainly for direct placement with less effort than before. I use it even if the tank has to be lifted 3" into a pan on the floor. I don't do the 'lay-it-down-and-slide-it-back-on-the-hand-truck' method 'cause that means it needs to be picked up again...

I've asked guys in my area what they think of this thing. Told them look at the videos. Our market is busy with one- and two-man shops using social media to get and maintain business. They are very up-front about what helps. Several of them agreed it's a good thing and purchased one. We spent 30 or 45 minutes training, and they said they 'got it'. Haven't heard back....

Again, this is a new idea that is not magic. It may not apply in a given region. It does apply here, 'bigtime'.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

That's pretty slick.


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## Green Country (Mar 6, 2009)

Have a link to the videos?


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## 760GWS (Mar 16, 2015)

Green Country said:


> Have a link to the videos?


If i may...

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCfG_GMniWByMaEFEuxyLE8w

I've seen these videos before. Pretty cool tool. Thought about getting one, especially during busier WH periods.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

plumberkc said:


> Nothing wrong with only doing water heaters, as long as you are a licensed Master Plumber.


Lots of people here aren't licensed plumbers. Your code isn't our code.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Honestly it's hard to even care anymore, this country is going to **** anyway.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

DDDave said:


> Got it!




that is real nice but I think you are gonna some day lose one of
those heaters and get yourself injured with that contraption.... I would rather have an extra dummy along with me just to be safe with something that large.... 

For the 40s and 50s , My little mule works real well to lift them up to the height I need without risking injury....


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Any plans to refine it any further?


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

DDDave said:


> It is a kit, but not something I bought. Had it built. Just wore out my fifth prototype hand truck, now I'm using one from "inventory". Don't have a link to share, as my web guy told me he was having major surgery. But this is a legitimate thing, pending what folks out there think.
> Regarding pics, this is one of the best I have. Let me know if I can do better...
> There is a water heater lifter channel on YouTube. Was a bit shocked it wasn't there when I first went looking...


I see a two wheeler with straps.

It took me two time to lift a 50g nat gas 20 inches the other day. I need straps or something. 




There's a few loud mufflers rattling my windows...gots to git before the neighbors get all pissy again. Have a day off from p-l-u-m-b-i-n-g, guys. Go outside and play or I will get the belt and wallop your fat asses.


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## DDDave (Aug 6, 2014)

*Complete and ready to use*



Plumber said:


> I see a two wheeler with straps.
> 
> It took me two time to lift a 50g nat gas 20 inches the other day. I need straps or something.
> 
> ...












40" high with a 22" 50 into a pan is my height record. See my photo albums. The pan did not get smashed. Dinged only due to technique, and the customer will never have to look at it.

Have never dropped a new heater. The rig is a rolling cradle.

The work pays just as much since I started using this kit as it did before. And I don't lose money because I can't do the work.

Never had a customer ask for a discount because I did it better....

Click here to see some example jobs: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfG_GMniWByMaEFEuxyLE8w

See my profile for contact info. Email address is good, Website is down due to surgery.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

That is a good lift you have made... when you get that heater up on the top like that does it get top heavy on you????

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f10/my-new-little-toy-31354/


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## DDDave (Aug 6, 2014)

*Yes*



sierra2000 said:


> Any plans to refine it any further?


Ya-
-The 'fender' (the curved white piece) should fold up, IMO. I can't do it cheaply, yet.
-The fender should be easier to use, such as have a magnet on it so it becomes hands-freer. Can't do it, yet. Don't know if it should, because it's strap helps.
-The straps should stow in a bag that comes with the kit? I've had guys bring this up. Good idea. I use a drawer.
-other details, too...

This thing was designed/refined from a somewhat demanding perspective. It needed to do exactly what I wanted, and it's worked well.


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## DDDave (Aug 6, 2014)

*top heavy*



Master Mark said:


> That is a good lift you have made... when you get that heater up on the top like that does it get top heavy on you????
> 
> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f10/my-new-little-toy-31354/



I've seen a machine like yours up close, and I thinks it's really cool. 


As long as I let the tank rest in the 'cradle' it doesn't feel too top-heavy.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I've got a better idea to save everyone's back. Put it on the floor . No new HWH needs to be up 18".


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## Green Country (Mar 6, 2009)

plumbdrum said:


> I've got a better idea to save everyone's back. Put it on the floor . No new HWH needs to be up 18".


Sometimes the drain is too high. And here electric tanks still have to be raised 18".


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Green Country said:


> Sometimes the drain is too high. And here electric tanks still have to be raised 18".


Not when you have a pump.


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## Green Country (Mar 6, 2009)

plumberkc said:


> Not when you have a pump.


I guess, and even though I would make more money selling a pump, I would have a hard time justifying that when there is already a stand sitting there and all I have to do is pick up the tank and sit it up there.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*Maybe I dont get out much*



plumbdrum said:


> I've got a better idea to save everyone's back. Put it on the floor . No new HWH needs to be up 18".




I just did a 50 gallon change out yesterday... the old bradford white was sitting about 4 inches off the garage floor........ I decided to err on the side of caution and installed it up on 8 inch concrete blocks anyway... no big deal

the last guy must have took it down to the floor but I have not yet seen anything about this fire code being lifted

maybe I dont get out much..... but is this totally official nation wide>??
and for how long have they relaxed this code???? 

Or is this all just urban legend and plumber beer talk and gossip????>.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> I just did a 50 gallon change out yesterday... the old bradford white was sitting about 4 inches off the garage floor........ I decided to err on the side of caution and installed it up on 8 inch concrete blocks anyway... no big deal
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you under NFPA? It's in there.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

plumbdrum said:


> Are you under NFPA? It's in there.



its Probably so, but like I said they dont let me out much...
.I am very rusty on this subject....

I will check it out... I assume that Indiana is but have not actually looked at a book on this subject for decades...

I would guess that some home inspector might make a note on it if you started lowering them...and open a can of worms with everybody...so I will probably leave them alone unless someone wants to go from a 40 gallon up to a 50..

Of course, You know if I ever need to run some wardflex, and I feel rusty about it all I got to do is go down to Lowes and get certified in only 10 minutes with a self administered test...:yes: 

thanks


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> I just did a 50 gallon change out yesterday... the old bradford white was sitting about 4 inches off the garage floor........ I decided to err on the side of caution and installed it up on 8 inch concrete blocks anyway... no big deal
> 
> the last guy must have took it down to the floor but I have not yet seen anything about this fire code being lifted
> 
> ...


Where's the safety comes in when there's a gas dryer next to water heater sitting 18" high?? Another useless code..


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

My understanding is that with a sealed combustion chamber and the FVIR feature, elevation is not required.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Green Country said:


> I guess, and even though I would make more money selling a pump, I would have a hard time justifying that when there is already a stand sitting there and all I have to do is pick up the tank and sit it up there.



I guess I'm not following you here. If the drain line was too high, the pump would only be used to empty the tank.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

plumberkc said:


> My understanding is that with a sealed combustion chamber and the FVIR feature, elevation is not required.



Bingo


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## Green Country (Mar 6, 2009)

plumberkc said:


> I guess I'm not following you here. If the drain line was too high, the pump would only be used to empty the tank.


I thought you were saying if the drain was too high to install a pump in the pan. 

I meant that sometimes the drain is too high to route the pan to so its better to just stick the new tank back on the stand. 

Are electric tanks required to be raised in other parts of the country?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*How much are they worth....*

Dave... I would probably like to get my hands on one of them just to see how well they work

you have not mentioned how much they are being sold for yet....I would take a wild stab at about 90 bucks???

This picture is from my last venture into a tight assed hole on the side of a home with my little mule.... took out a tall skinney one and put in this Rheem low boy with it... 

I had to stand on the orange 5 gallon bucket and put a belt on the boiler drain of the heater to life it over into the pan....it went very well considering I did it all by my little self......


I am just wondering how well that cart of yours would have done this job..... I am sure it is all a learning curve and you get used to it after a while...


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> Dave... I would probably like to get my hands on one of them just to see how well they work
> 
> you have not mentioned how much they are being sold for yet....I would take a wild stab at about 90 bucks???
> 
> ...


That's a mule??? Was thinkingRidgid 300 is the mule... where did that donkey comes from?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

rjbphd said:


> That's a mule??? Was thinkingRidgid 300 is the mule... where did that donkey comes from?



that donkey came off of craigs list for 500 bucks....it was basically like new but has got its nicks and cuts now...it will rise up to about 4 foot of the ground but that is getting way too top heavy 
I dont take it more than half way up.

I have found it best keep it plugged in to power when not in use ..


it has paid for itself on about 20 water heater installs....this one I would not have completed without help.

I do want to try Daves little water heater cart and see what I think of it...


I will try anything if it keeps my right nut happy 
and hanging correctly :laughing:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

plumberkc said:


> My understanding is that with a sealed combustion chamber and the FVIR feature, elevation is not required.


Since the whole sue-happy nation mobilized on the 18" bandwagon, I doubt I will be lowering any water heaters anytime soon....no matter WHAT the code says.

As far as dryers go, therein lies the hypocrisy of code councils and code enforcement. It is not now nor was it EVER about public safety. It is a finely tuned system of revenue and liability avoidance on the part of municipalities. Mandating a code change that will cost consumers big bucks is much easier when you can hold the installers (licensed Plumbers in this case) by the nards. We don't comply, we risk losing our livelihood. 

If the same rule had been put in effect for consumer installed appliances such as clothes dryers, it would have meant nothing. Consumers by and large would have put them on the floor anyway. People do biotch when prices of manly things like engines and water heaters go up. But if you're gonna monkey with the housewives' way of running their home, you better bring a lunch.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> that donkey came off of craigs list for 500 bucks....it was basically like new but has got its nicks and cuts now...it will rise up to about 4 foot of the ground but that is getting way too top heavy
> I dont take it more than half way up.
> 
> I have found it best keep it plugged in to power when not in use ..
> ...


What brand/make etc?? Thanks


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Dryers are certainly not exempt from the 18" clearance. It's gas utilization equipment.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

plumbdrum said:


> Dryers are certainly not exempt from the 18" clearance. It's gas utilization equipment.


Correct. But it is not now nor likely to ever be enforced.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

It's enforced if it's inspected.👍👍


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

You could at least have the common courtesy to break a sweat while installing a 65 gallon heater.

Geez.

I may have to steal this idea!!


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## DDDave (Aug 6, 2014)

*guys might be focused on a learning curve...*



hroark2112 said:


> You could at least have the common courtesy to break a sweat while installing a 65 gallon heater.
> 
> Geez.
> 
> I may have to steal this idea!!


you understand, man! 

In a way, the fr----g tank is being used against itself. The hand truck/straps allow a guy to relax a little and put it in spots that used to be bear-hugging back benders. Up high, over stuff, back in a hole, customer's stuff in the way, inside closet furnace plenums. It shines on 50's.

Have you seen the water heater lifter channel on YT. Published this yesterday:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvlJQsM5wNk

I still look at jobs like that and remember what I used to do. The shelves to the left are definitely in the way. Watch me kick and twist the thing coming out. The ending shows how the hand truck leans forward for balance.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> Dave... I would probably like to get my hands on one of them just to see how well they work
> 
> you have not mentioned how much they are being sold for yet....I would take a wild stab at about 90 bucks???
> 
> ...


What is that lift called?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Plumber said:


> What is that lift called?



Its called a Mule...new its wroth about $1700.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=G_REPDOouiirWipQwTfi9g&bvm=bv.94455598,d.b2w





I got it off of craigs list for $500
it is ok but you got to keep it on charge or you can get into trouble .. it gets a little top heavy if you take a heater up over about 36 inches..


I am gonna try one of those carts out and see what I think of it


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## DDDave (Aug 6, 2014)

*The kit's not rated for this for a couple reasons*

We don't rate the hand truck for more 50 gallon tanks because we've found a slight bend in the blade after levering bigger tanks out.








The kit for 75's+ has been built, and is being checked out on jobs.

This video shows a quick clean example of a 50 gal. basic placement into a pan: 




We have a website, now: http://www.wolfvalleytools.com


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

DDDave said:


> We don't rate the hand truck for more 50 gallon tanks because we've found a slight bend in the blade after levering bigger tanks out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Will the 75 gal kit do a 50 gal WH?


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## DDDave (Aug 6, 2014)

There's going to be some overlap in the way the 75kit works, but it's being built specifically to handle bigger tanks. If a guy does mostly 75's then he should wait.










YouTube Water Heater Lifter Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfG_GMniWByMaEFEuxyLE8w

http://www.wolfvalleytools.com/


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

what if he does mostly 50's and the occasionally 75? Stick with the 50 model or wait for the 75?

Also what about the short boy 50's? shorter and fatter.


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## DDDave (Aug 6, 2014)

The 50 would be best. 

With shorties you have to push/pull harder on the tank when you put it up, that's all. Works fine.




YouTube Water Heater Lifter Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfG_GMniWByMaEFEuxyLE8w

http://www.wolfvalleytools.com/


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Master Mark said:


> Its called a Mule...new its wroth about $1700. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CC0QtwIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DGb_suMiheGI&ei=F5NtVemLDsm5sAWC4IP4Bw&usg=AFQjCNEF6EZJIDqkabZ9snws_RGyyWzcwg&sig2=G_REPDOouiirWipQwTfi9g&bvm=bv.94455598,d.b2w I got it off of craigs list for $500 it is ok but you got to keep it on charge or you can get into trouble .. it gets a little top heavy if you take a heater up over about 36 inches.. I am gonna try one of those carts out and see what I think of it


Has anyone tried it out yet?


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

That is pretty darn slick! Wish I had one out in Kali! Here there are only two apt. complexes that have raised heaters that I've seen.

If I could use one I'd buy it.


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

My water heater are on the floor but we are now having to put them in pans. I want one just for that. don't want to lift it 3 inches with out help. Very Cool


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

saysflushable said:


> My water heater are on the floor but we are now having to put them in pans. I want one just for that. don't want to lift it 3 inches with out help. Very Cool


I've put pieces of 3" or 4" PVC under the one I install. It allows ya to roll up to the pan edge & drop the front of water heater into the pan. Then you can walk the unit from there.


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## DDDave (Aug 6, 2014)

Based on the response this has gotten, I intend to start a thread over in Tools and Equipment. Thanks everyone for the replies to this one!

YouTube Water Heater Lifter Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfG_GMniWByMaEFEuxyLE8w

http://www.wolfvalleytools.com/


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> Its called a Mule...new its wroth about $1700.
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=G_REPDOouiirWipQwTfi9g&bvm=bv.94455598,d.b2w
> 
> ...




Hey, I am sorry that i have never got around to trying out one of your carts.... I bought the escalara stair cat last month for 2500 and have not had the extra cash and I have not needed it all that much recently....


last week I took out of a basement 2 75 gallon power vents and a 75 gas and I did them all by myself... Once you get the hang of it and learn how to manage the thing it basically takes very little effort to handle those beasts.......


. the stair cat basically paid for itself last week.... I took out a 50 electric full of lime this week that was actually heavier than the 75s....

We lifetd a 75 power vent onto a water heater stand yesterday with my LITTLE MULE... I was not sure if it would handle the weight but it glided right over the stand and we dropped it in.....

I really love both of these tools especially the stair cat.....


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## DDDave (Aug 6, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> Hey, I am sorry that i have never got around to trying out one of your carts.... I bought the escalara stair cat last month for 2500 and have not had the extra cash and I have not needed it all that much recently....
> 
> 
> last week I took out of a basement 2 75 gallon power vents and a 75 gas and I did them all by myself... Once you get the hang of it and learn how to manage the thing it basically takes very little effort to handle those beasts.......
> ...



(chuckle:yes glad you didn't buy if it wasn't going to work! 

Also, it's nice to hear about getting paid for having/using new tools.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

gear junkie said:


> Lots of people here aren't licensed plumbers. Your code isn't our code.


Yes that is true Gear but in the great state of CA. you do need to a licensed 
plumber/contractor to install water heaters and any thing else which require
a permit to be pulled even if you don't bother to pull said permits ! :whistling2:


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

JERRYMAC said:


> Yes that is true Gear but in the great state of CA. you do need to a licensed
> plumber/contractor to install water heaters and any thing else which require
> a permit to be pulled even if you don't bother to pull said permits ! :whistling2:


Very true....or be an employee who works for a licensed plumber.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

I supposed he's licensed too.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

DDDave said:


> (chuckle:yes glad you didn't buy if it wasn't going to work!
> 
> Also, it's nice to hear about getting paid for having/using new tools.


Your posts are bordering on self-promotion / sales vs. sharing information. If you would like to advertise on PZ, please contact the administrators. 

Any other posts promoting your product in such a blatant way will be deleted and puts your member status in jeopardy. Advertising / selling products on PZ is prohibited.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

So if I talk about using it, my post will be deleted?


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

gear junkie said:


> So if I talk about using it, my post will be deleted?


Maybe if DDDave had been a contributing member before his water heater lifter post, or even posted on any other thread besides the two he made. It's seems that he joined PZ for no other reason than to promote his product.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

gear junkie said:


> So if I talk about using it, my post will be deleted?


Nope


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

plumberkc said:


> Maybe if DDDave had been a contributing member before his water heater lifter post, or even posted on any other thread besides the two he made. It's seems that he joined PZ for no other reason than to promote his product.


Bingo! It's fairly obvious DDDave is all about his lift. Like someone else suggested, I'm not so sure he really is a plumber anymore.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Phat Cat said:


> Bingo! It's fairly obvious DDDave is all about his lift. Like someone else suggested, I'm not so sure he really is a plumber anymore.


I know this may not mean much, but when I placed the order, he called because of a question about shipping and we ended up talking for about 30 minutes.....he's a real plumber judging from from the conversation. He sounds like a good guy you'd invite to have a over for a bbq.

Think about this.....his product is to make our lives easier AND safer. That's worth him being here imo because we benefit from him being around. Unlike the thousands of plumber who read and never contribute.

And his posts are isolated to 2 threads he's made. Unlike some people who USED TO TALK ABOUT THE COMPANY EVERY SINGLE TIME A DRAIN WAS MENTIONED. But I won't say any names lol.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

gear junkie said:


> I know this may not mean much, but when I placed the order, he called because of a question about shipping and we ended up talking for about 30 minutes.....he's a real plumber judging from from the conversation. He sounds like a good guy you'd invite to have a over for a bbq.
> 
> Think about this.....his product is to make our lives easier AND safer. That's worth him being here imo because we benefit from him being around. Unlike the thousands of plumber who read and never contribute.
> 
> And his posts are isolated to 2 threads he's made. Unlike some people who USED TO TALK ABOUT THE COMPANY EVERY SINGLE TIME A DRAIN WAS MENTIONED. But I won't say any names lol.


He's welcome to be here, and must abide by PZ posting rules regarding advertising just like every other member.


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