# 1988 Polybutylene Failing



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)




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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

TheMaster said:


>



I love that pipe.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Love that pipe! It always gives out on a weekend or evening. A real money maker. Most first time customers think you are trying to scare them when you suggest a re-pipe because once it starts to fail, it does not stop.

Second repair is always within 90 days. It's a situation of pay me to do a re-pipe now, or eventually it will be a re-pipe fitting to fitting over several years.

Pay me now or pay me much more later. :yes:


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I have a customer that has a bunch of properties that has PB from that era. We really don't have major problems with it. He gets a leak every now and then, but no more, on average, than copper tube. 

They are usually pinholes, that spray a fine mist of water. Most are at or near the connection to the water heater (mostly electric). The PB was run directly to the tappings on the units. We just copper 'em out about 3 feet away, and crimp it up.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Love that pipe! It always gives out on a weekend or evening. A real money maker. Most first time customers think you are trying to scare them when you suggest a re-pipe because once it starts to fail, it does not stop.
> 
> Second repair is always within 90 days. It's a situation of pay me to do a re-pipe now, or eventually it will be a re-pipe fitting to fitting over several years.
> 
> Pay me now or pay me much more later. :yes:


I repaired it about 2 years ago and he called again yesterday with a new problem. He knows he needs new pipe but cant affored it right now...no job. His girlfriend just moved in and turned the water heater up full throttle...the water was about 160 degrees. I turned it down to alittle below normal and told him to leave it there. He is going to turn the water off everytime he leaves and at night until he can come up with 3800.00.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

RealLivePlumber said:


> I have a customer that has a bunch of properties that has PB from that era. We really don't have major problems with it. He gets a leak every now and then, but no more, on average, than copper tube.
> 
> They are usually pinholes, that spray a fine mist of water. Most are at or near the connection to the water heater (mostly electric). The PB was run directly to the tappings on the units. We just copper 'em out about 3 feet away, and crimp it up.


Some areas it's the pipe that fails and other areas it's the fittings. 95% of the time it's the fittings in our area.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Chlorine attacks the pipe....its good pipe if theres no chlorine in the water. The more chlorine in the water the faster it will fail. It appears to last here about 20 years and then if the pipes in a strain...it pinholes or cracks where its strained.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

This next pic is a whole different job. The owner wanted to convert from an electric cooktop to a gas cooktop. I installed a new 3/8" i.d type l soft copper tube for the new gas supply. First from below I measure from a corner to the location I would like my new gasline ran to. The i go into the attic and find the same corner as I measured from below. Drill a 1.5" hole in the top plate and fish 1" pex down the wall as far as I can push it. Then from inside the cabinet I cut my hole thats about 5"x7" and find my pex I shoved down the wall from the attic. The just fish the 3/8 copper down the 1" pex and connect at each end. total job time that included installing the new gas cooktop was 2.5 hrs.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Do you warrant poly repairs? We don't. We put a poly warning sticker on all invoices where we connect to poly.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I will warranty that the fittings are installed correctly and that my new pipe will not fail. I advised him to call his insurance company and see if they would help pay for some of the repipe before they hafta pay a huge cleanup bill...the house has hardwood floors. The 3800.00 is for pipe work only...he would have about 1,000 worth of drywall repair and 500.00 worth of painting to do also after I'm done. The house has no attc in some spots so the walls and ceilings will hafta be cut. Its a mess. I always make the owner assume all risks and damages in regards to polybutylene repair and its written on a sepertate part of the invoice and its labled...."owner or owners agent" with a sig line and date. Then they sign the bottom of the invoice too that states the work was done to their satisfaction.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Did someone invite my friend to the party.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Here he is.


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## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

my hero!


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

From what I've read in your posts regarding the type/quality of work you do, I would have expected to see a nice clean hole, nothing personal.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> From what I've read in your posts regarding the type/quality of work you do, I would have expected to see a nice clean hole, nothing personal.


I usually dont cut drywall when I'm looking for a leak I just break it out with a hammer. No chance on cutting anything that way....I've seen wires,pipes whatever inleted into the drywall were they packed the wall full of wires and pipes together. Now after I know whats in the wall I can cut it out square. I didn't cut this one out square later because my construction guy is gonna go patch the drywall tomorrow......but he's no part of my business...I've known him for about 10 years and he has his own construction business and I do some remodels for him. I give him ALOT ALOT of small jobs like that and he appreciates it and helps me do stuff around my house for free if it needs it. He's great guy to work with and has alot of good customers he refers me to.

I agree and no offense taken....I know the hole looks bad but ll that was discussed as I was walking up the ladder with my hammer. he agreed that any hole in his drywall is not gonna look good and as i said my friends gonna slap a new piece of rock and float it out 36" in all directions and the owners gonna paint it himself....sorry mr. painter


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

I don't see much of the poly here except in mobile homes and it's generally pin holes when it fails.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I one today as well. 1/2" Acetyl 90 snapped off. Qest brand. 95% of the poly leaks around here are on the old grey acetyl plastic fittings. I have never seen the black polysulphone fittings leak or the brass fittings leak. I have seen a few of the copper fittings leak but it extremely rare (I think I've seen it twice in my lifetime). A few splits in the pipe, usually attributed to pressures over 80PSI and kinks. A few pinholes from chlorine damage as well though very rare.

I honestly think that is shell had not used those acetyl fittings there would never have been a lawsuit and there would still be some people using it in the USA. It is still used in many countries without incident outside of north America. Of course, north America has the most chlorinated water in the world by a good margin so that does discourage it's use here.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> I one today as well. 1/2" Acetyl 90 snapped off. Qest brand. 95% of the poly leaks around here are on the old grey acetyl plastic fittings. I have never seen the black polysulphone fittings leak or the brass fittings leak. I have seen a few of the copper fittings leak but it extremely rare (I think I've seen it twice in my lifetime). A few splits in the pipe, usually attributed to pressures over 80PSI and kinks. A few pinholes from chlorine damage as well though very rare.
> 
> I honestly think that is shell had not used those acetyl fittings there would never have been a lawsuit and there would still be some people using it in the USA. It is still used in many countries without incident outside of north America. Of course, north America has the most chlorinated water in the world by a good margin so that does discourage it's use here.


ALOT of beach front condo's had those grey plastic fittings and I was in trade school with a guy who was working as an apprentice at the beach before he came to school and they would cut the plastic ones out and crimp back in copper fittings. Well it was common for the pipe to have alittle slack and they cut replace the fittings without couplings..well he cut one of the pipes at an angle and was trying to pull alittle more pipe and stuck his head up in the wall to look and see if he could maybe reach a talon strap.....well when he did the pipe jumped forward on its own and went in between his eyeball and the eye socket. It was a mess!!! Ok then he moves into a house and the sewer is backed up...so he cleans the sewer and must have got some of the sewer juice in the bad eye some how....he said it swell up the size of a softball and they had to almost take his eye out.....they used needles to drain the fluid off and had him on IV antibiotics for a week. he lost some vision in that eye but is lucky to have an eye at all...or lucky he's not dead....for a minute there it didn't look good for him.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

I guess he missed the day on safety glasses.  



TheMaster said:


> ALOT of beach front condo's had those grey plastic fittings and I was in trade school with a guy who was working as an apprentice at the beach before he came to school and they would cut the plastic ones out and crimp back in copper fittings. Well it was common for the pipe to have alittle slack and they cut replace the fittings without couplings..well he cut one of the pipes at an angle and was trying to pull alittle more pipe and stuck his head up in the wall to look and see if he could maybe reach a talon strap.....well when he did the pipe jumped forward on its own and went in between his eyeball and the eye socket. It was a mess!!! Ok then he moves into a house and the sewer is backed up...so he cleans the sewer and must have got some of the sewer juice in the bad eye some how....he said it swell up the size of a softball and they had to almost take his eye out.....they used needles to drain the fluid off and had him on IV antibiotics for a week. he lost some vision in that eye but is lucky to have an eye at all...or lucky he's not dead....for a minute there it didn't look good for him.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

So tell me pex guys and gals, what is the difference in poly and pex? It still looks tinker toy to me. Really, don't hound hell out of me. I am serious. I want to know. Convince me. Tell me the truth please


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

PlasticMan - The chemical make-up is different. I am not a PEX lover by any means. Everyone insists on it, so it's what we use. I'm not convinced that it's not a ticking time bomb. Copper pinholes are nothing compared to a Poly or PEX fitting blowing off. Major flood damage within 10 minutes. 

In case you were wondering why a leak would go 10 minutes - most homes here do not have a main shut-off in the home. H.O.'s who do know where their meters are, don't have a meter key.

Also, there is very little expertise required to install PEX. PEX plumbers, don't get mad. There is a night and day difference between a plumber installing PEX and most who are putting it in the new housing market.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

Polybutylene was a thinner pipe than PEX. PEX is cross-linked polyethelyne, and it's stronger than plain jane poly. 

Polybutylene was easier to bend but also easier to kink. There were training seminars and booklets with guides to supporting it and they were often ignored. 

PEX is impervious to the chemical problems that plagued polybutylene. Larger sizes of PB were fused together rather than crimped. Much of it was used for driveway melt and under-street city projects. Those were the most expensive ones to replace when they failed.

The worst problems with PB were in trailers because of the monkeys who installed the stuff and the poorer quality of material used. Qest (they can't even spell their own name) valves were quick to fail while Vanguard valves just keep on ticking. 

Trailer factories typically used aluminum dog-eared crimps and acetal plastic fittings. The dog-ear crimpers were seldom correctly adjusted, the rings were not carefully put 1/8" to 1/4" from the end of the pipe, and the aluminum would deteriorate in the presence of moisture. Overcrimped rings would crack on the dog-ears. 

And the plastic fittings would shear simply from the pressure of the rings.










^^ Various types of PB. Some of the crimps are copper, some dog-eared aluminum. The black pipe is PB with carbon black added to protect against sunlight. 

One of the nice things about PB pipe was that it was made from a pelletized Butene-1 gas, which means it was a product made from formerly waste material. Now, it's just waste material again. I don't know if they still do it, but they used to have it burning off into the atmosphere.

My own home is plumbed in PB. I have never had any type of failure. It's about 18 years old, with some bits even older.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

The nasty hole in the sheetrock is repaired now.....so it looked bad for a day


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*this is what I get into all the time*

This stuff is going out left and right here in our town.... its nothing but trouble...


I just love this stuff.... crammed in the wall between two vanaties on a slab home... .


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> From what I've read in your posts regarding the type/quality of work you do, I would have expected to see a nice clean hole, nothing personal.


 Whoa..easy fella..next you want a perfectly clean truck and financials on the tenth.....


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

Thanks for the pex/ poly lesson. Now, what is the best pex pipe, rings, and fittings? Cause sooner more so than later I'm going to be using it to, to compete.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

I use stainless steel cinch bands, brass fittings, and Zurn pex. From what I understand, the problems Zurn had with their fittings years ago was circumstantial. I have been using the above for about 5 years now(I was very hesitant to use pex at first) without one leak yet (knocking on wood as I type this, damn I think I just woke up the baby as the FN dogs started barking:laughing. I have done 2 three family homes, one one family home, and a **** load of small jobs with pex with great success, so far......

BTW, we have excellent water conditions here, I'm not sure how well the brass fittings will hold up in Florida. I'm sure Protech will chime in at some point, he's the resident pexpert....


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

Herk said:


> Polybutylene was a thinner pipe than PEX. PEX is cross-linked polyethelyne, and it's stronger than plain jane poly.
> 
> Polybutylene was easier to bend but also easier to kink. There were training seminars and booklets with guides to supporting it and they were often ignored.
> 
> ...


 Excellant post. Another reason that pex is used alot is because if you are required to home run the system it si much cheaper both in amterial and in labour, and that is what will sell it. I still use both copper & pex. But like PC said when you present both prices, you'll do pex 90% of the time.


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

I'm just getting into Viega's new PureFlow pex press system as I have allready invested a bit in their product. A little more money but their fittings are resistant to to corrosion and dezincafication. We had alot of issues up here with brass pex fittings(tee's especially) made in china that were letting go due to too much zinc in there make up.
Insurance companies were only paying for the actual repair of that fitting that burst, so you had to take it up with the Manufacture or the distributor. They have paid out but were slow to do so.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

So figuring a new construction job compared to say, cpvc, pex= higher cost/ labor?? I am learning here.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

*PB and Pex*

The same nominal pipe sizes have slightly different ID's. You'll find out quickly when you try to jam a PB fitting into Pex pipe and vice-versa. The fittings are not inter-chaneable. Personally I prefer copper. I beleive more and more Pex will fail in future. IMO the constant expansion and contraction (especially on hot side) causes the copper crimp ring to loosen. Time will tell...


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

*Polybutylene Failing*

Crawford and Associates handled the class action law suit against poly piping and fittings. I always explain that issue to every client that has poly. I also inform the client to talk to their insurance company. Once I talk with the home owner’s insurance company generally they move forward with a re-pipe. The re-pipe job makes it worth the while to spend an hour with the insurance company.

I have found as many bad fittings as bad piping with poly. It is junk. My issue with pex piping there never is a straight line and it looks terrible especially the blue and red piping that sticks out like a sore thumb.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Richard Hilliar said:


> I have found as many bad fittings as bad piping with poly. It is junk. My issue with pex piping there never is a straight line and it looks terrible especially the blue and red piping that sticks out like a sore thumb.


Come on, the colors are purdy! It's a real trip when you go into a condo that had poly and has been re-piped with PEX and the hot is blue and the cold is red. Guess color coded pipe is too difficult for some. :yes:

What I do like about PEX is that HO's don't want to invest in crimpers and are afraid of working with PEX.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Come on, the colors are purdy! It's a real trip when you go into a condo that had poly and has been re-piped with PEX and the hot is blue and the cold is red. Guess color coded pipe is too difficult for some. :yes:
> 
> What I do like about PEX is that HO's don't want to invest in crimpers and are afraid of working with PEX.


 
just because they dont own crimpers doesn't mean they wont try anyway. They can always use hose clamps, zipties, twist ties, duct tape.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Come on, the colors are purdy! It's a real trip when you go into a condo that had poly and has been re-piped with PEX and the hot is blue and the cold is red. Guess color coded pipe is too difficult for some. :yes:
> 
> What I do like about PEX is that HO's don't want to invest in crimpers and are afraid of working with PEX.


Rehau made red pipe and it was used for hot and cold. It's U.V protection for a limited time. I never go by the color of pex as to if its hot or cold.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Rehau made red pipe and it was used for hot and cold. It's U.V protection for a limited time. I never go by the color of pex as to if its hot or cold.


Talking about Poly anybody using this ...

CTS [copper tube size] Uses a flanged stainless steel insert.
Couples together with McDonald Compression water service fittings.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Talking about Poly anybody using this ...
> 
> CTS [copper tube size] Uses a flanged stainless steel insert.
> Couples together with McDonald Compression water service fittings.


Its used by the public water provider for pipe between the large public main and the individual property meters. I dont use it.


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