# house traps



## incarnatopnh

Anyone have a good sure fire way to get a cutter head through a house trap??? We have a lot of them here and they are a pain to go through to clean a line


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## gear junkie

Never had to deal with them myself but do know that ridgid sells a "trap spoon" made specifically for going aiding through traps.


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## SewerRatz

If your using a drum machine, get a trap leader and a P-trap cutter. The trap leader is 3' of very flexible cable, and a P-trap cutter uses a smaller blade holder than the pair shaped cutters and is more round in shape, instead of pair shaped.


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## Caduceus

If your using sectional cables, sometimes by running the machine in reverse and feeding slowly helps. House traps are code around here, so using a 'leader' as SewerRatz mentioned is a must. You can try it with a drum machine and no tension on the cable through the power feed assembly, while hand feeding it, but your cable tends to want to twist and jump around in the drum and you can kink the cable.
It sometimes takes fast brute force, but also a delicate and slow touch.
Like making love to a woman or performing brain surgery with a jackhammer.


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## Unclog1776

They still require them in some areas? What is the reasoning? Around here we find em on really old homes, usually 6" clay under the floor. Most recent one had to be removed so we could jet the 8" outgoing side. Pic below









I did not do any of the demo work in that pic just found the trap and came back to jet after it was dug out.


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## incarnatopnh

I will have order a leader. I have a 3" p-trap cutter. All our house traps are on older houses, all 4" clay. And usually they are just outside the foundation so we end up digging down 6' to cut them out when they break.


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## Caduceus

We still install them on new homes, too. The reason is that it provides an independent arrangement of circulating air for the home's venting system while providing a separation from the sewer main.
I have heard debates about this for years from other plumbers and some of the myths behind house traps have had too much time to solidify the belief that they are bad.
I like house traps, and properly installed they do not cause clogs. If that argument pops up again I won't respond to it. 
The are still a number of common sewers and combination sewers in our area and the house trap serves as protection to home owners.
A direct connection to the public sewer without a house trap now vents the entire public sewer system through private homes. So when a building has an internal problem, which we have all seen in our careers and on the forums, and sewer gas enters the home it comes from the public sewer. 
Gases that might be introduced intentionally, accidentally or naturally as well as fluids that have combustible fumes now put the people in the building at a much higher risk.
It has been well known for decades across the US that public sewers without separation from private structures have caused property damage, injury and deaths and it still baffles me as to why UPC/IPC codes don't take this into consideration.
The only argument that I've heard against house traps is that they clog. I've got kids and have had clogged toilets, but have never needed to unclog my house trap that was put in 10 years ago.
Believe me when I tell you that most building drain and sewer clogs are on a horizontal portion of a drain where there is no trap. And please don't mention "double-trapping" because that will just validate that you don't understand what double-trapping actually is.
Some of the ways things were done 100 years ago still hold a true purpose today. Building traps are one of those things, IMO.


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## Unclog1776

Caduceus said:


> We still install them on new homes, too. The reason is that it provides an independent arrangement of circulating air for the home's venting system while providing a separation from the sewer main. I have heard debates about this for years from other plumbers and some of the myths behind house traps have had too much time to solidify the belief that they are bad. I like house traps, and properly installed they do not cause clogs. If that argument pops up again I won't respond to it. The are still a number of common sewers and combination sewers in our area and the house trap serves as protection to home owners. A direct connection to the public sewer without a house trap now vents the entire public sewer system through private homes. So when a building has an internal problem, which we have all seen in our careers and on the forums, and sewer gas enters the home it comes from the public sewer. Gases that might be introduced intentionally, accidentally or naturally as well as fluids that have combustible fumes now put the people in the building at a much higher risk. It has been well known for decades across the US that public sewers without separation from private structures have caused property damage, injury and deaths and it still baffles me as to why UPC/IPC codes don't take this into consideration. The only argument that I've heard against house traps is that they clog. I've got kids and have had clogged toilets, but have never needed to unclog my house trap that was put in 10 years ago. Believe me when I tell you that most building drain and sewer clogs are on a horizontal portion of a drain where there is no trap. And please don't mention "double-trapping" because that will just validate that you don't understand what double-trapping actually is. Some of the ways things were done 100 years ago still hold a true purpose today. Building traps are one of those things, IMO.


Very interesting. I had no idea they were still in use today. Do you install clean outs on either side of it? Do you out then in under the floor or outside the foundation?


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## PLUMBER_BILL

Caduceus said:


> We still install them on new homes, too.
> <snip>
> 
> :thumbsup: *A man who understands the house trap and the fresh air inlet.
> 
> Now lets talk about northerners who vacation to Florida for 3 months and do have a house trap. They can co**me home next April and enter a house that does not smell like a sewer. You might say Parr what are you talking about? All the fixtures are trapped ... Yes but whats the time necessary for a 1-1/4, 1-1/2 or 2 inch trap to evaporate? And let sewer gas into the home? With a 4" main trap [house trap] even with smaller traps evaporating,
> **municipal sewer gas is kept in the sewer where it belongs. *
> * And we do have the fresh air inlet ... Plus a house trap [running trap] is the only type of trap that can be replenished with rainwater.*


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## Caduceus

Our code requires house traps to be installed no less than 3' deep, deeper than 4' requires a cleanout after the trap, 7' and deeper should be installed inside the building with a cleanout after the trap.


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## Caduceus

Plumber Bill, our codes go back a bit further and have been recognized longer than most plumbing codes in the US. The Pittsburgh area and Philadelphia plumbers worked very hard with the state over the past few years to maintain some of the tried and true portions of our codes while still allowing IPC modifications to them in hopes of creating some commonality throughout the state.
Otherwise, the state was going to require all of the already licensed plumbers (the only ones in the state) to retest for IPC licensing.
Even an IPC certified plumber cannot work in Allegheny County. They must pass our local test.


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## newyorkcity

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Caduceus said:
> 
> 
> 
> We still install them on new homes, too.
> <snip>
> 
> :thumbsup: *A man who understands the house trap and the fresh air inlet.
> 
> Now lets talk about northerners who vacation to Florida for 3 months and do have a house trap. They can co**me home next April and enter a house that does not smell like a sewer. You might say Parr what are you talking about? All the fixtures are trapped ... Yes but whats the time necessary for a 1-1/4, 1-1/2 or 2 inch trap to evaporate? And let sewer gas into the home? With a 4" main trap [house trap] even with smaller traps evaporating,
> **municipal sewer gas is kept in the sewer where it belongs. *
> *And we do have the fresh air inlet ... Plus a house trap [running trap] is the only type of trap that can be replenished with rainwater.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. I thought I was alone here on this. If this was shorter I would use it as my signature.
Click to expand...


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## wyrickmech

I see how the house trap protects from a excessive amount of sewer gas but it dose not protect from fluid backups. With the lower water usage the traps become more of a issue. Here they have been outlawed for many years. The sanitary sewers either combination or not here they are vented threw the homes. Sealed manholes it must draw air from the homes. The house traps that are still around here are required to be removed. When you need protection a backwater valve is used here which is just as tricky to clean. Here they are required to have clean outs on both sides and a pit for acess.


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## Caduceus

"I see how the house trap protects from a excessive amount of sewer gas but it dose not protect from fluid backups."

House traps were never intended to protect from back ups. We DO install backwater valves where they are required (Typically required when the next downstream manhole, at grade, is higher than the interior building drain). Public sewers do not need to rely on homes for air circulation. 
See, this is what I mean by a misunderstanding of traps and drainage caused by years of bad interpretation.
When I hear these same explanations from outside inspectors who were groomed on the IPC or UPC it makes me wonder who sold these ideas in the first place.
Low water use is not an issue for house traps. That is a myth. An old run of cast iron or clay pipe underground will clog just as easily as an old house trap. So you replace the old drain pipe with smooth plastic just as you would replace the trap with plastic.
There are many more benefits to having one than not.
I'm not trying to sell you on the idea so that you will install them illegally, I'm trying to show you that sometimes mythology in the trades can continue for so long that it's turned into a fact and law. 
It's a shame that I bothered sharing such a reasonable explanation and it was so easily dismissed. I'm not going to explain how and where a back water valve is installed, because if you don't have house traps it doesn't matter. If you do have house traps, you already know.
Guess you'll have that.


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## love2surf927

Caduceus, very informative reading I thank you. It's not a shame you shared the info just because one person dismissed it, others may learn, like me. In my area I have never seen one but I understand what you are saying entirely. Now what is the fresh air inlet and where would that be installed in the system? Or is it just the standard existing VTRs. Also how is the house trap replenished with rainwater?


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## incarnatopnh

love2surf927 said:


> Caduceus, very informative reading I thank you. It's not a shame you shared the info just because one person dismissed it, others may learn, like me. In my area I have never seen one but I understand what you are saying entirely. Now what is the fresh air inlet and where would that be installed in the system? Or is it just the standard existing VTRs. Also how is the house trap replenished with rainwater?


Around here, in older houses the footer drains are tied into the sanitary lines therefore the house trap stays wet.


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## Unclog1776

Low water use can be an issue. I've personally seen 6" clay traps clog repeatedly on elderly peoples home. Usually a widow or widower who lives alone. One example I can give is we went there 3 times in a year for back up. Ran camera each time and although it was 90 year old clay everything was in good shape but the trap was clogged every time. The old boy switched toilet paper every time and we suggested trying to do laundry on full load setting each time no matter how small the load. After visit number three I subbed out breaking the floor and removing the trap. Been over a year and no more back up, or sewer gas smell


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## TheDrainGuy

From my experience if the trap is in a dirt pit where the line leaves the house


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## TheDrainGuy

If you dig down several inches, a lot of the time there will be a wye with an end clean out after the trap.


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## Caduceus

love2surf927 said:


> Caduceus, very informative reading I thank you. It's not a shame you shared the info just because one person dismissed it, others may learn, like me. In my area I have never seen one but I understand what you are saying entirely. Now what is the fresh air inlet and where would that be installed in the system? Or is it just the standard existing VTRs. Also how is the house trap replenished with rainwater?


House traps used to be connected to the storm leader drainage with a control trap at the leaders to keep sewer gas from venting to the outside around the house. It's not necessary anymore or legal in most places that require traps. Storm water must be separated from sewer and go to storm drains to keep the treatment plants from being inundated with too much water during heavy rains and discharging untreated sewage to rivers and streams.
It has been realized that a house trap, when placed 3 ft. or deeper below grade, is not subjected to the evaporation of an above ground floor drain and the like.
The house trap stays cool and natural condensation within the system and from the circulating atmosphere will keep the trap at level for long periods of time.
In most designs, the building drain leaves the structure horizontally and enters a tee in vertical sanitary position. The trap is on the bottom of the tee and the fresh air inlet extends up to grade from the top of the tee. The FAI (fresh air inlet) is acting as a "local vent" since it is before the trap weir on the inlet of the trap and also as a local vent for the whole DWV system.

Hope this wasn't confusing and thanks for not being di*ks. Past conversations on this subject have been received with hostility. Everybody knows that I dislike hostility.:yes:


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## Caduceus

Unclog1776 said:


> Low water use can be an issue. I've personally seen 6" clay traps clog repeatedly on elderly peoples home. Usually a widow or widower who lives alone. One example I can give is we went there 3 times in a year for back up. Ran camera each time and although it was 90 year old clay everything was in good shape but the trap was clogged every time. The old boy switched toilet paper every time and we suggested trying to do laundry on full load setting each time no matter how small the load. After visit number three I subbed out breaking the floor and removing the trap. Been over a year and no more back up, or sewer gas smell


Bullsh*t. 

If you took the time to actually read my post and understand all of the text you would learn more, but now you embellish a story to sound smart.

Again, the bullsh*t challenge flag is thrown onto the field. (It's brown, not red)

Hey, I knew an old couple who complained that their brakes squeeled too much, so ya know what I did. I took them stupid brakes off the car. Now they don't have to worry about squeeling anymore. Stupid brakes!:laughing:


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## Caduceus

Since the subject came up, let me share more. This will be more passive.

Maybe it's just me, but when I deal with the elderly and sometimes households that have children, I take the time to discuss certain issues that effect their drainage. As a plumber you already are digging into the forbidden zone of their lives. So to gain their trust and prevent future service calls I would talk about what they put down their disposal, arrangement of toys and toiletries in the bathroom, lint screens for the laundry, washing of cat litter basins, etc....and even the need for fiber supplements or stool softeners when they visit their doctor.
You aren't there 24/7/365 and have no true idea of what goes into the drains, but you DO know what causes problems. By actually talking (yes, lead them to the couch and sit down, pet the dog/cat and make them comfortable) to them you can build a relationship.
The last service company that I worked for showed that 50% of the business that I got was from repeat customers. Not call backs. They were an expensive flat rate company, too. I generated approx. $15,000 per week with one guy, one truck and approx. 75% was labor charges towards profit. My record was $60,000 in one week with a known customer and all sales were done ethically with the most premium of service provided.
People with money are more frugal and distrusting of plumbers. Build a relationship and trust, provide good service and word will get around.
Point is...maybe you didn't so them any favors by condemning the house trap. You only did yourself a favor by not replacing it the right way.


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## Drain Pro

In this area, I'd say 75%of sewer stoppages are trap stoppages. House traps absolutely cause stoppages. Grease builds up in the house side of the trap. Once there's enough grease the first wad of wipes or paper towels plugs it. Another scenario I see quite frequently is in old homes, where rust scale flakes off the sewer line and lays in the bottom of the house trap. Once enough rust is laying in there, trap stoppage.


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## Drain Pro

...


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## wyrickmech

Caduceus said:


> Bullsh*t. If you took the time to actually read my post and understand all of the text you would learn more, but now you embellish a story to sound smart. Again, the bullsh*t challenge flag is thrown onto the field. (It's brown, not red) Hey, I knew an old couple who complained that their brakes squeeled too much, so ya know what I did. I took them stupid brakes off the car. Now they don't have to worry about squeeling anymore. Stupid brakes!:laughing:


if they are so good why are they illegal in so many places? Why does the UPC/ IPC not call for them on every service? What you are saying is that everybody that disagrees is wrong but we have reason behind us. Most clogs in a main sewer leaving a building with a main trap is the place you will find the clog anything that slows the solids down lets the water leave. After a wile the solids build and a running trap is the first place it will settle.


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## Caduceus

Drain Pro said:


> In this area, I'd say 75%of sewer stoppages are trap stoppages. House traps absolutely cause stoppages. Grease builds up in the house side of the trap. Once there's enough grease the first wad of wipes or paper towels plugs it. Another scenario I see quite frequently is in old homes, where rust scale flakes off the sewer line and lays in the bottom of the house trap. Once enough rust is laying in there, trap stoppage.


Holy crap....after what you just posted youshould change your screen name to "Drain NO!" 
Did you just say " first wad of wipes or paper towels plugs it." ????
Are you serious?
You need to go to plumbing school and apprentice under an actual licensed plumber or simply reread what you posted, then smack yourself in the face.

There is nothing about your post that shows you have the enough experience as a plumber to even comment.


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## Caduceus

wyrickmech said:


> if they are so good why are they illegal in so many places? Why does the UPC/ IPC not call for them on every service? What you are saying is that everybody that disagrees is wrong but we have reason behind us. Most clogs in a main sewer leaving a building with a main trap is the place you will find the clog anything that slows the solids down lets the water leave. After a wile the solids build and a running trap is the first place it will settle.


This is another example of lack of an open mind to learn or a lack of aptitude to learn.
Either you cannot read or you cannot understand the words of the English language since all of your reasons and questions have already been answered in my post.

Go back...slooooowly, and reread what I said, what you said. Then do it again...then again...then maybe once more for good measure. And if you still disagree with me get a bottle of Jack Daniels, a .45 cal turn on Donnie Darko and let nature take its course. You probably won't have to worry about work tomorrow.


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## Unclog1776

Caduceus said:


> This is another example of lack of an open mind to learn or a lack of aptitude to learn. Either you cannot read or you cannot understand the words of the English language since all of your reasons and questions have already been answered in my post. Go back...slooooowly, and reread what I said, what you said. Then do it again...then again...then maybe once more for good measure. And if you still disagree with me get a bottle of Jack Daniels, a .45 cal turn on Donnie Darko and let nature take its course. You probably won't have to worry about work tomorrow.


House traps suck bro. Welcome to the 21st century


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## wyrickmech

Caduceus said:


> This is another example of lack of an open mind to learn or a lack of aptitude to learn. Either you cannot read or you cannot understand the words of the English language since all of your reasons and questions have already been answered in my post. Go back...slooooowly, and reread what I said, what you said. Then do it again...then again...then maybe once more for good measure. And if you still disagree with me get a bottle of Jack Daniels, a .45 cal turn on Donnie Darko and let nature take its course. You probably won't have to worry about work tomorrow.


 is a running trap legal by UPC or IPC code? If not you must be the one with the closed mind.


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## Caduceus

Unclog1776 said:


> House traps suck bro. Welcome to the 21st century


Oh, yeah, BRO. Guess what, BRO...gravity and flow have been around a long time before the 21st, 20th or even a whole bunch of centuries and you still rely on them. How about that ole' pressure thing that has been used for water a longer even time..errr...or even, wait, bro, atmospheric pressure has been around for a while too.
Uh, there's a principle thingy of science I can't remember, bro. But heck, this is the 21st century and none of that matters, cuz I gots an Ipad.

Quote: "If you want to find out who the idiots are, let them speak."
-me


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## Unclog1776

Never seen a house trap that wasn't either 

A: causing the clog in the first place 

Or

B: preventing access for proper sewer cleaning equipment. 

My example of b would be the 4" cast trap that leads to a 6" sewer a few feet past the foundation. You will never gain access for equipment designed for 6" and above.


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## Letterrip

Take a breath Caduceus. Now breath in. Now breath out. There is room for a difference of opinion without you flipping out. "You're an idiot!!" is not a good debate point. We don't have house traps where I live. Period. They aren't used. I don't know why they are beneficial in your opinion, but when you rant like that, I find myself having exactly zero interest in what you have to say. If you want to be heard, act like an adult.


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## Caduceus

uhg


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## Letterrip

Shrug


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## plbgbiz

I don't suppose I have ever seen a house trap here. Not even on the early 20th century homes. 

I guess since we never had them, we don't know to miss them. I have to say I am quite surprised the running traps are not an issue for blockages with low flow toilets.

Do they come as one complete fitting with c.o. openings for risers or are they job built?


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## newyorkcity

plbgbiz said:


> i don't suppose i have ever seen a house trap here. Not even on the early 20th century homes.
> 
> I guess since we never had them, we don't know to miss them. I have to say i am quite surprised the running traps are not an issue for blockages with low flow toilets.
> 
> Do they come as one complete fitting with c.o. Openings for risers or are they job built?


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## Caduceus

Letterrip said:


> Take a breath Caduceus. Now breath in. Now breath out. There is room for a difference of opinion without you flipping out. "You're an idiot!!" is not a good debate point. We don't have house traps where I live. Period. They aren't used. I don't know why they are beneficial in your opinion, but when you rant like that, I find myself having exactly zero interest in what you have to say. If you want to be heard, act like an adult.


The statements added to the thread that contradict me are placed simply to be contrary. Open minded and calm conversation began and then the same crap flowed in as expected from past discussions, just as I predicted.

So, Letterip, this was not flipping out. This was handling the cattle. Taking the bull by the b*lls and shooting for the stars.
It certainly wasn't flipping out.
Guess we need to have a few rounds before you know the real me.
If you have no interest because of my rant, it's of no loss to you anyways since you do not use traps. But there are plenty of plumbers who may visit the site and install traps without an understanding of "Why?".

There was no rationale except for bloated stories and blind acceptance of codes, which undermined the purpose of the discussion to help others who actually DO have to deal with these circumstances.

I made it clear that I don't want to engage in debate, but inform.

If somebody is so ignorant, so be it. I will meet ignorance with ignorance, fire with fire and baby oil with baby oil if I have to.

But I was not trying to convince anybody that they were wrong when I posted. The battle of right and wrong started from somebody else and I was feeling squirrelly.


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## gear junkie

So what is the difference between a house trap and standing water from a dip or sag? Appears it'll slow down the flow of solids either way?


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## Unclog1776

Caduceus said:


> The statements added to the thread that contradict me are placed simply to be contrary. Open minded and calm conversation began and then the same crap flowed in as expected from past discussions, just as I predicted. So, Letterip, this was not flipping out. This was handling the cattle. Taking the bull by the b*lls and shooting for the stars. It certainly wasn't flipping out. Guess we need to have a few rounds before you know the real me. If you have no interest because of my rant, it's of no loss to you anyways since you do not use traps. But there are plenty of plumbers who may visit the site and install traps without an understanding of "Why?". There was no rationale except for bloated stories and blind acceptance of codes, which undermined the purpose of the discussion to help others who actually DO have to deal with these circumstances. I made it clear that I don't want to engage in debate, but inform. If somebody is so ignorant, so be it. I will meet ignorance with ignorance, fire with fire and baby oil with baby oil if I have to. But I was not trying to convince anybody that they were wrong when I posted. The battle of right and wrong started from somebody else and I was feeling squirrelly.


House traps suck bro. Leave your sewer accessible bro. Might need to be cleaned out bro and I can't get my big hose thingy thru it never mind the sewage on your floor just rest assured you aren't venting the city's line that's all that matters


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## Caduceus

Unclog1776 said:


> Never seen a house trap that wasn't either
> 
> A: causing the clog in the first place
> 
> Or
> 
> B: preventing access for proper sewer cleaning equipment.
> 
> My example of b would be the 4" cast trap that leads to a 6" sewer a few feet past the foundation. You will never gain access for equipment designed for 6" and above.


See what I mean. No contribution to learning, just ignorance. If I need to act like an adult, is this the example? It's like a child arguing with me , grasping at straws to convince me that it's okay to stay up late even though it's 2 am.

Seriously, isn't there a requirement for actual plumbers to join this forum or are handymen welcome too. Also ability to read. 

Properly installed building drains and sewers and house traps DO NOT CAUSE CLOGS. 
Think about it. If there are no house traps in your area then you will never have clogs. But you DO have clogs. Because of problems with the drains. A house trap will clog if you have problems with the drains. If the house trap clogs, you know there is a flow problem, because it shouldn't clog.
Or, if the trap is bad, replace it. It has more pros than cons.
If people are putting a bunch of stuff that doesn't belong in the drains tell them to stop it.

Geez, it's simple.


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## Letterrip

History that predates me here. Understood, but it came across as a rant to me. I'll see my way out of the middle of this, since I never have even seen a house trap.


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## redbeardplumber

There are many good plumbers here Cadecus, and it sounds like you are one as well... And I like to hear all sides to learn all sides. When you pretty much say to someone to reread b/c you already explained it, and that's how it is..... Is a bit how you say....being an a**h***


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## newyorkcity

Letterrip said:


> History that predates me here. Understood, but it came across as a rant to me. I'll see my way out of the middle of this, since I never have even seen a house trap.


 You can exit from the fresh air intake, which is a santee connected upstream of the house trap. 1/2" the size of the building house drain, or 3", whichever is larger. Keep going up the fresh air intake and out of the building, minimum of 6" above grade, terminated in a u-bend or bug screen.:laughing:


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## gear junkie

Caduceus said:


> See what I mean. No contribution to learning, just ignorance. If I need to act like an adult, is this the example? It's like a child arguing with me , grasping at straws to convince me that it's okay to stay up late even though it's 2 am.
> 
> Seriously, isn't there a requirement for actual plumbers to join this forum or are handymen welcome too. Also ability to read.
> 
> *Properly installed building drains and sewers and house traps DO NOT CAUSE CLOGS.*
> Think about it. If there are no house traps in your area then you will never have clogs. But you DO have clogs. Because of problems with the drains. A house trap will clog if you have problems with the drains. If the house trap clogs, you know there is a flow problem, because it shouldn't clog.
> Or, if the trap is bad, replace it. It has more pros than cons.
> If people are putting a bunch of stuff that doesn't belong in the drains tell them to stop it.
> 
> Geez, it's simple.


What is the correct way to install a house trap? What kind of condition would warrant their use? What are some examples of improperly installed house traps? Any pictures of them that you've installed?


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## Caduceus

gear junkie said:


> So what is the difference between a house trap and standing water from a dip or sag? Appears it'll slow down the flow of solids either way?


Look at a trap under a sink, a floor drain, a shower drain trap...ask again what the difference is compared to a sag and you will have your answer.

Design, intent, engineering, etc...it's not a sag. It's a trap.
Put a 2' long sag under your tub drain, yeah, you'll have problems and it doesn't pass as a trap for inspection.

The two are not the same.


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## plbgbiz

...


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## gear junkie

Also not getting the difficultly of going through one based off the pic given....seems like there's 2 cleanouts to use or is that pic outdated?


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## newyorkcity

gear junkie said:


> Also not getting the difficultly of going through one based off the pic given....seems like there's 2 cleanouts to use or is that pic outdated?


If you mean in my pic, the top two are cleanouts. I don't know why they call them "vents". 
Underground, they are in a pit in the cellar. That is the go to point for any stoppage, so you can snake the line both ways. I've never snaked a drain from a roof in my life.


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## Caduceus

redbeardplumber said:


> There are many good plumbers here Cadecus, and it sounds like you are one as well... And I like to hear all sides to learn all sides. When you pretty much say to someone to reread b/c you already explained it, and that's how it is..... Is a bit how you say....being an a**h***


Fair enough. 

So when a person joins the forum and didn't read all of the instructions telling them to post an 'intro' and they are commented to in a derogatory manner by members of the forum it's accepted as normal. When I mentioned that it was unfair to be so harsh to newbies for not reading thoroughly and that human error was a factor, I was told to reread the forum rules and suffered harsh treatment for my comment. 

So punishing a newbie with rude comments because they need to reread is bad, but punishing a veteran member because they need to reread is not acceptable.
Cool. I get it.
Members who ask newbies to reread the rules and post an intro are a**holes, by your statement...for the record.


----------



## wyrickmech

Letterrip said:


> History that predates me here. Understood, but it came across as a rant to me. I'll see my way out of the middle of this, since I never have even seen a house trap.


 there is a reason you don't run into them,one it is a running trap which has been deemed illegal in most places. And two it was arrogant and closed minded.


----------



## gear junkie

Caduceus said:


> *Look at a trap under a sink, a floor drain, a shower drain trap...ask again what the difference is compared to a sag and you will have your answer.*
> 
> Design, intent, engineering, etc...it's not a sag. It's a trap.
> Put a 2' long sag under your tub drain, yeah, you'll have problems and it doesn't pass as a trap for inspection.
> 
> The two are not the same.


I was leading to the trap is standing water....same as a sag. Causes a loss of velocity in the solids....yes/no?


----------



## newyorkcity

gear junkie said:


> I was leading to the trap is standing water....same as a sag. Causes a loss of velocity in the solids....yes/no?


Absolutely slows it down.
Then it starts moving again.
Small price to pay for my house not sharing the city's toxic sewer gases...


----------



## gear junkie

newyorkcity said:


> If you mean in my pic, the top two are cleanouts. I don't know why they call them "vents".
> Underground, they are in a pit in the cellar. That is the go to point for any stoppage, so you can snake the line both ways. I've never snaked a drain from a roof in my life.


Yup, your pic is what I was referring to. Any thoughts why they'd be hard to run a cable or hose through?


----------



## redbeardplumber

Caduceus said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> So when a person joins the forum and didn't read all of the instructions telling them to post an 'intro' and they are commented to in a derogatory manner by members of the forum it's accepted as normal. When I mentioned that it was unfair to be so harsh to newbies for not reading thoroughly and that human error was a factor, I was told to reread the forum rules and suffered harsh treatment for my comment.
> 
> So punishing a newbie with rude comments because they need to reread is bad, but punishing a veteran member because they need to reread is not acceptable.
> Cool. I get it.


Not the same. One is site rules, one was a an inference of illiteracy and stupidness....

Carry on.... I'm listening


----------



## gear junkie

newyorkcity said:


> Absolutely slows it down.
> Then it starts moving again.
> Small price to pay for my house not sharing the city's toxic sewer gases...


You and Caduseus seem too like these house traps.....maybe it's a regional thing because of the old plumbing still in use? Are the homes there vented? Do you guys have Ptraps there? How would sewer gas come into your home?


----------



## newyorkcity

gear junkie said:


> Yup, your pic is what I was referring to. Any thoughts why they'd be hard to run a cable or hose through?


 Most of us use drum machines because of:
-finished basements
-elevator buildings, parking far away, etc.
Much easier to wheel in a drum machine right into the water/gas meter room where the house trap is.
A 5/8" or 3/4" drum cable will not go through a 4" running trap. Too stiff.
Also, if you have standing water, you open the street side cleanout first. If the trap is clogged, you can then relieve the pressure easier instead of the other way around.


----------



## newyorkcity

gear junkie said:


> You and Caduseus seem too like these house traps.....maybe it's a regional thing because of the old plumbing still in use? Are the homes there vented? Do you guys have Ptraps there? How would sewer gas come into your home?


Exactly how Plumber Bill eloquently described it before. Check it out, maybe page 2?


----------



## Letterrip

gear junkie said:


> You and Caduseus seem too like these house traps.....maybe it's a regional thing because of the old plumbing still in use? Are the homes there vented? Do you guys have Ptraps there? How would sewer gas come into your home?


His example from earlier suggested a scenario where a broken vent line (say old cast iron) on the sewer side of the trap would allow gasses from the sewer to enter the building. A house trap would ensure that these gasses only originated from the house in question and not the city sewer.


----------



## Caduceus

redbeardplumber said:


> Not the same. One is site rules, one was a an inference of illiteracy and stupidness....
> 
> Carry on.... I'm listening


Your criteria that you laid down to qualify as an a**hole was simply asking a person to reread what had already been said.
By adding specific inferences to contradict my analogy is moot to the subject matter.
You set the precedent by posting the generalization of asking another to reread.
I complimented your precedent by giving example of said precedent.

If specific details to meet the title of a**hole, relating to the subject, specifically, not generally, were needed it was incumbent upon you to outline those details.

I stand by what I said as true.


----------



## Caduceus

Google around the internet for a while and see if you can find some sewer gas related stories telling of how bad things have happened.

A simple little house trap can save you a lot of grief. That's the whole reason why they were initially installed. They didn't exist at first. They were actually the solution to a problem, now some have forgotten but the problem is still there.


----------



## gear junkie

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Caduceus said:
> 
> 
> 
> We still install them on new homes, too.
> <snip>
> 
> :thumbsup: *A man who understands the house trap and the fresh air inlet.
> 
> Now lets talk about northerners who vacation to Florida for 3 months and do have a house trap. They can co**me home next April and enter a house that does not smell like a sewer. You might say Parr what are you talking about? All the fixtures are trapped ... Yes but whats the time necessary for a 1-1/4, 1-1/2 or 2 inch trap to evaporate? And let sewer gas into the home? With a 4" main trap [house trap] even with smaller traps evaporating,
> **municipal sewer gas is kept in the sewer where it belongs. *
> * And we do have the fresh air inlet ... Plus a house trap [running trap] is the only type of trap that can be replenished with rainwater.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> newyorkcity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly how Plumber Bill eloquently described it before. Check it out, maybe page 2?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Off topic real quick but I have my settings changed per thread page.....this entire thread only shows as 2 pages.
> 
> Back on topic.....Mr. Parr mentions a vacation style home where the traps inside could evaporate. Completely understand this thought. however in a home under constant use, why would sewer gas come in.
> 
> Also Mr. Parr mentions the trap filling by rainwater....how does this happen? What is a fresh air inlet?
Click to expand...


----------



## newyorkcity

gear junkie said:


> PLUMBER_BILL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Off topic real quick but I have my settings changed per thread page.....this entire thread only shows as 2 pages.
> 
> Back on topic.....Mr. Parr mentions a vacation style home where the traps inside could evaporate. Completely understand this thought. however in a home under constant use, why would sewer gas come in.
> 
> Also Mr. Parr mentions the trap filling by rainwater....how does this happen? What is a fresh air inlet?
> 
> 
> 
> Good question. Forgive me, but I gotta get to sleep. I will post a sanitary riser diagram tomorrow showing the trap and F.A.I. Good night...
Click to expand...


----------



## gear junkie

Caduceus said:


> Google around the internet for a while and see if you can find some sewer gas related stories telling of how bad things have happened.
> 
> A simple little house trap can save you a lot of grief. That's the whole reason why they were initially installed. They didn't exist at first. They were actually the solution to a problem, now some have forgotten but the problem is still there.


Not sure if this comment was for me as I know I'm bothering you and NYC about these traps.....just never seen this stuff. I'm learning alot more from you and NYC then I could on google. Could you go into detail about the proper installation and improper installation. Pictures are always helpful. I'm sure I'll never see this stuff here but learning alot.


----------



## redbeardplumber

....


----------



## Caduceus

>>>.....Repost from page 6

Your criteria that you laid down to qualify as an a**hole was simply asking a person to reread what had already been said.
By adding specific inferences to contradict my analogy is moot to the subject matter.
You set the precedent by posting the generalization of asking another to reread.
I complimented your precedent by giving example of said precedent.

If specific details to meet the title of a**hole, relating to the subject, specifically, not generally, were needed it was incumbent upon you to outline those details.

I stand by what I said as true.


----------



## redbeardplumber

I certainly cannot outwit you with language. I am here too learn and share.

I was defending good plumbers here b/c of your attitude. I have read your other posts, and I know who I'm dealing with. I'm done... Back on topic


----------



## TheDrainGuy

1002.6 Building traps. Building (house) traps shall be prohib- ited, except where local conditions necessitate such traps as re- quired by the code enforcement official. Building traps may be installed inside or outside the building, and the material shall be consistent with the building sewer pipe. Building traps shall be provided with a cleanout and a relief vent or fresh air intake on the inlet side of the trap. The building trap shall not be the only plumbing vent to the exterior. The size of the relief vent or fresh air intake shall not be less than one-half the diameter of the drain to which the relief vent or air intake connects. Such re- lief vent or fresh air intake shall be carried above grade and shall be terminated in a screened outlet located outside the building.


----------



## Redwood

Drain Pro said:


> In this area, I'd say 75%of sewer stoppages are trap stoppages. House traps absolutely cause stoppages. *Grease builds up in the house side of the trap. Once there's enough grease the first wad of wipes or paper towels plugs it*. Another scenario I see quite frequently is in old homes, where rust scale flakes off the sewer line and lays in the bottom of the house trap. Once enough rust is laying in there, trap stoppage.


I'd say it sounds more like putting grease down the drain causes stoppages...:whistling2:


----------



## wyrickmech

Caduceus said:


> Google around the internet for a while and see if you can find some sewer gas related stories telling of how bad things have happened. A simple little house trap can save you a lot of grief. That's the whole reason why they were initially installed. They didn't exist at first. They were actually the solution to a problem, now some have forgotten but the problem is still there.


 for one a properly installed sewer and building drain system will have fresh air in it 90% of the time so sewer gas problems are only in systems which are not properly vented. Two if there is a time of inactivity using the building system as a vent will draw air in even when no activity is going on. The house trap has been outdated only places like New York where it could potentially keep vermin and bugs out would it be a benefit. Now this is not meant in a mean or hateful way but the fact still remains in most codes a running trap is illegal. If your codes are that far behind the rest of the country then go for it but don't come here and dish good qualified men like they were a bunch of second graders and you were the principal .


----------



## TheDrainGuy

Copied and pasted from NY state code.

Here in Boston in new construction I've never seen one installed. When old ones are ripped out due to being broken or whatever, plumbers put a Tee and a clean out usually.
But from what I read, if you're inspector wants to see a trap, do it.


----------



## Redwood

incarnatopnh said:


> Anyone have a good sure fire way to get a cutter head through a house trap??? We have a lot of them here and they are a pain to go through to clean a line


*I run a K-7500 using 11/16" cable and a 3" round cutter without a leader...*

It will push through a 4" house trap nicely and scrape it clean rather nicely.
If the clogged line has a bit of head on it the force of the water will scour the debris out nicely.

If not I'll use the shop vac to suck the crud out of it...

*A friend of mine who runs a Drill & Eel uses a short, soft leader laying it over the edge of the cleanout and steps on it to screw it through the house trap*


----------



## Redwood

Unclog1776 said:


> Never seen a house trap that wasn't either
> 
> A: causing the clog in the first place
> 
> Or
> 
> B: preventing access for proper sewer cleaning equipment.
> 
> My example of b would be the 4" cast trap that leads to a 6" sewer a few feet past the foundation. You will never gain access for equipment designed for 6" and above.


And what does the code say about a full size cleanout....

You should be installing a 6" outside cleanout...


----------



## HP plumber

Hmmm... Interesting so just out of curiosity are vents required x amount of feet downstream of the trap to prevent trap siphonage? I would also think a access panel of some kind would be required to service? Haven't seen them in so cal.


----------



## Redwood

gear junkie said:


> Also Mr. Parr mentions the trap filling by rainwater....how does this happen? What is a fresh air inlet?


Many of the older more densely populated areas still have combined sewers so gutter leaders and other storm drainage would be connected in many cases...


----------



## Redwood

HP plumber said:


> Hmmm... Interesting so just out of curiosity are vents required x amount of feet downstream of the trap to prevent trap siphonage? I would also think a access panel of some kind would be required to service? Haven't seen them in so cal.


The fresh air vent is on the house side of the house trap connecting within 2'.. But it may actually terminate some distance away...


----------



## gear junkie

Redwood said:


> And what does the code say about a full size cleanout....
> 
> You should be installing a 6" outside cleanout...


Many codes say 3" is the minimum size c/o allowed to be installed.


----------



## gear junkie

Redwood said:


> Many of the older more densely populated areas still have combined sewers so gutter leaders and other storm drainage would be connected in many cases...


Would the combined sewer cause the requirement of the house trap? Maybe a gutter is too close to a window?


----------



## Redwood

gear junkie said:


> What is the correct way to install a house trap? *What kind of condition would warrant their use?* What are some examples of improperly installed house traps? Any pictures of them that you've installed?


A population density 25,000 to 60,000 people per sq mile is a big one...:yes:


----------



## Redwood

gear junkie said:


> Would the combined sewer cause the requirement of the house trap? Maybe a gutter is too close to a window?


Sorry I clicked on the wrong post to quote...
I was answering how rainwater would keep the trap replenished...

I'll edit that post to clarify the thread and select the right post to quote...


----------



## gear junkie

Redwood said:


> A population density 25,000 to 60,000 people per sq mile is a big one...:yes:


why does that matter?


----------



## wyrickmech

gear junkie said:


> Would the combined sewer cause the requirement of the house trap? Maybe a gutter is too close to a window?


combination sewer requires backwater valve for heavy rainfall flooding.


----------



## Redwood

gear junkie said:


> Many codes say 3" is the minimum size c/o allowed to be installed.


IPC cleanouts match line size up to 4" with 4" being the minimum for larger lines...


----------



## Redwood

gear junkie said:


> why does that matter?


With a population density that size and the number of building that would be venting the city sewer system odor containment and disease vector containment does become an issue...


----------



## gear junkie

Redwood said:


> And what does the code say about a full size cleanout....
> 
> You should be installing a 6" outside cleanout...





Redwood said:


> IPC cleanouts match line size up to 4" with 4" being the minimum for larger lines...


Touche but why should the 6" be required when 4" will suffice?


----------



## Redwood

gear junkie said:


> Touche but why should the 6" be required when 4" will suffice?


Go with a 4 then...
3" is really pushing it with a 6" line for a cleanout though...


----------



## nhmaster3015

All this argument over a device that is illegal in 90% or more of the country:laughing: doesn't matter whether you like them or not, they are illegal and they are illegal for good reason. They. Absolutely do cause blockage because most of them were installed such that they cannot be serviced especially in colder climates where the ground is frozen with 2' of snow on the ground. A 4" building trap WILL fill with kitchen waste because there is not enough velocity from the kitchen sink, especially with a water saver faucet. Food disposals greatly exacerbate the problem too. Over the 40 years I have been in the business I have removed more house traps than I can remember, all with the result of eliminating the drainage problem in the house and none with the result of causing odor in the house. A properly plumbed and vented system does not need any further odor protection than the traps and vents installed.


----------



## Unclog1776

I couldn't help myself when he got all upset about calling him bro. One of the first posts you said I'm not going to argue about clogged traps then proceeded to scream and cry about how awesome they are when pros from all over the country don't agree. For what it's worth I'm not an apprentice, I'm an owner


----------



## Drain Pro

Caduceus said:


> Holy crap....after what you just posted youshould change your screen name to "Drain NO!" Did you just say " first wad of wipes or paper towels plugs it." ???? Are you serious? You need to go to plumbing school and apprentice under an actual licensed plumber or simply reread what you posted, then smack yourself in the face. There is nothing about your post that shows you have the enough experience as a plumber to even comment.


 Wow. I really don't know what to say to that other than I've had and continue to have a very successful career. You also sound like a complete tool when you post something like that. And by the way, don't pull that license B .S. with me. One thing I have a full and total understanding of in life, is drain cleaning and the proper operation of them. I've put many licensed plumbers to shame and I will continue to do so in the future. That's not directed at all the plumbers on this forum. I'm speaking directly to Caduceus.


----------



## Drain Pro

Redwood said:


> I'd say it sounds more like putting grease down the drain causes stoppages...:whistling2:


 That's true to an extent. I was merely pointing out that the grease builds up in the trap. No trap,no trap stoppage. The grease isn't clogging trap in or trap out in most of these cases as long as there's no belly, just the house trap. I never said that house traps are not worthwhile. But if I have to explain to any plumber why a house trap contributes to stoppages, they don't understand drains or drain cleaning. I don't care what their license says.


----------



## incarnatopnh

I'm glad I managed to start so much controversy over this subject. House traps are no longer used around here for a reason. Just one more problem spot. Thank you for the idea of a trap leader. Already ordered. As for the crybaby posts, all I can say is WOW. We are all adults and its interesting to see the different ways of doing things around the country


----------



## Unclog1776

I saw a DIY project once where homeowner removed the clay trap and then built a new one out of 6" 90s

He said the trap alone was over 100 bucks lol


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL

Letterrip said:


> Take a breath Caduceus. Now breath in. Now breath out. There is room for a difference of opinion without you flipping out. "You're an idiot!!" is not a good debate point. We don't have house traps where I live. Period. They aren't used*. I don't know why they are beneficial in your opinion,* but when you rant like that, I find myself having exactly zero interest in what you have to say. If you want to be heard, act like an adult.


They are beneficial when this occurs. Call, came in one day diamond ring dropped in the toilet and flushed. My reply was do not put any water down the drains until I get there. Threw a wet-vac on the truck, proceeded to remove the 2 trap clean outs, vacuumed out the trap, $hit, paper and whatnot -- removed the vacuum lid and there was the nicest diamond I had ever seen.
Moral of the story, a real, real happy customer. A trap that actually was a trap and without it that day -- it [the ring] would have been lost.
Mrs. & I got a lobster dinner with all the trimmings. Plus I got paid for the job and got maybe 50 new customers from word of mouth advertising.
The lady told everybody about the plumber who saved her ring.


----------



## gear junkie

Incidentally I have a brand new 7/8 ridgid trap leader if anyone is interested.


----------



## buffaloPlumber

House traps are extremely common here. Even new construction.


----------



## justme

buffaloPlumber said:


> House traps are extremely common here. Even new construction.


osha would love to catch you in that hole, they would wipe the smile right off. When they handed you that big ass fine.:yes:


----------



## theplungerman

justme said:


> osha would love to catch you in that hole, they would wipe the smile right off. When they handed you that big ass fine.:yes:


You beat me to the punch. I got called away and when I came back to post,,, you did. 
Now with that being said when I was a newbie I did a job worse than that,, kinda wormed under the initial trench. So there I was on my stomach reaching in to do this amazing repair at the city tie in, sewage water rushing by and all. When I turned around and asked my guy for more duct tape and bubble gum I realized that if this hole-trench collapsed I'm likely to be a dead man,,,, I also thought what an idiot I was. 
Even though 1 side of trench don't look as steep as other. Risking injury is 1 thing, Risking death? 
Please reconsider next time you go down that deep.


----------



## deerslayer

buffaloPlumber said:


> House traps are extremely common here. Even new construction.


You wouldn't catch me in that hole without shoring, might as well wear a casket in there, atleastyou got a chance if something goes wrong


----------



## justme

I've done it as a helper working with dumbass journeyman , I won't do it now and I won't allow any of my guys to do it. We rent trench boxes or the hydraulic kind they are cheap compared to having to make a phone call to someone's wife and give them the terrible news.


----------



## jmc12185

We are still required to install house traps everywhere but they do suck. I'm pretty sure they will do away with them in the next few years especially with all these fixtures using less and less water.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


----------



## theplumbinator

Caduceus said:


> Plumber Bill, our codes go back a bit further and have been recognized longer than most plumbing codes in the US. The Pittsburgh area and Philadelphia plumbers worked very hard with the state over the past few years to maintain some of the tried and true portions of our codes while still allowing IPC modifications to them in hopes of creating some commonality throughout the state.
> Otherwise, the state was going to require all of the already licensed plumbers (the only ones in the state) to retest for IPC licensing.
> Even an IPC certified plumber cannot work in Allegheny County. They must pass our local test.


I know living about 20 miles from the Delaware water gap myself that the code on the other side of the river goes something like "anything goes in the Pocono's" guess its different in city's out in PA.


----------



## Keefer w

theplumbinator said:


> I know living about 20 miles from the Delaware water gap myself that the code on the other side of the river goes something like "anything goes in the Pocono's" guess its different in city's out in PA.


That would put you in Warren or Sussex county?


----------



## theplumbinator

Sussex


----------



## Keefer w

theplumbinator said:


> Sussex


Right on. Born and raised in Hackettstown


----------



## theplumbinator

I work there a lot. I live in Hopatcong. My company does a ton of service work for Hackettstown Oil. I'm always out in Great Meadows, liberty, independence, Long Valley, Mansfield, Oxford.


----------



## Caduceus

gear junkie said:


> Would the combined sewer cause the requirement of the house trap? Maybe a gutter is too close to a window?


Combined sewers put a region at higher risk for chemicals or petroleum to enter the sewers, but the risk in a sanitary-only sewer still exists.

When rain leaders are connected to a combined sewer system, control traps would be at the base of each leader or they may all connect together and a single control trap before connecting to the sanitary.

You may be able to imagine, without a control trap on the leaders, if your neighbor decides to dump that old container of mineral spirits and adhesive remover down his drains the fumes would vent through the rain leaders of your property. Without traps separating row houses on a common sewer that attaches to a combination sewer fumes could enter all of the residences.

^^^Above example is a real scenario that I was called to in Clairton, PA. Partial clog in the drain of 1st floor branch line was causing siphoning of toilet and shower. Fumes were entering the home, resident woke up and called the fire dept. who had her and children leave. I met with the landlord, checked all 4 buildings to find her neighbor had a bunch of cans of old chemicals that he flushed down the laundry tub in the basement. His traps were fine, and no problems, but because of the clog and loss of trap integrity next door his neighbor could have been killed.


----------



## justme

Caduceus said:


> Combined sewers put a region at higher risk for chemicals or petroleum to enter the sewers, but the risk in a sanitary-only sewer still exists.
> 
> When rain leaders are connected to a combined sewer system, control traps would be at the base of each leader or they may all connect together and a single control trap before connecting to the sanitary.
> 
> You may be able to imagine, without a control trap on the leaders, if your neighbor decides to dump that old container of mineral spirits and adhesive remover down his drains the fumes would vent through the rain leaders of your property. Without traps separating row houses on a common sewer that attaches to a combination sewer fumes could enter all of the residences.
> 
> ^^^Above example is a real scenario that I was called to in Clairton, PA. Partial clog in the drain of 1st floor branch line was causing siphoning of toilet and shower. Fumes were entering the home, resident woke up and called the fire dept. who had her and children leave. I met with the landlord, checked all 4 buildings to find her neighbor had a bunch of cans of old chemicals that he flushed down the laundry tub in the basement. His traps were fine, and no problems, but because of the clog and loss of trap integrity next door his neighbor could have been killed.



Bull****

Again, the bullsh*t challenge flag is thrown onto the field. (It's brown, not red)

Hey, I knew an old couple who complained that their brakes squealed too much, so ya know what I did. I took them stupid brakes off the car. Now they don't have to worry about squealing anymore. Stupid brakes!:whistling2:


----------



## plbgbiz

Ahhh, house trap feud.

What a relief that it is not about FR vs TM. :thumbup:


----------



## Keefer w

At least it's not about the home page or intros.


----------



## Hoosier Plumber

Caduceus said:


> Combined sewers put a region at higher risk for chemicals or petroleum to enter the sewers, but the risk in a sanitary-only sewer still exists.
> 
> When rain leaders are connected to a combined sewer system, control traps would be at the base of each leader or they may all connect together and a single control trap before connecting to the sanitary.
> 
> You may be able to imagine, without a control trap on the leaders, if your neighbor decides to dump that old container of mineral spirits and adhesive remover down his drains the fumes would vent through the rain leaders of your property. Without traps separating row houses on a common sewer that attaches to a combination sewer fumes could enter all of the residences.
> 
> ^^^Above example is a real scenario that I was called to in Clairton, PA. Partial clog in the drain of 1st floor branch line was causing siphoning of toilet and shower. Fumes were entering the home, resident woke up and called the fire dept. who had her and children leave. I met with the landlord, checked all 4 buildings to find her neighbor had a bunch of cans of old chemicals that he flushed down the laundry tub in the basement. His traps were fine, and no problems, but because of the clog and loss of trap integrity next door his neighbor could have been killed.





justme said:


> Bull****
> 
> Again, the bullsh*t challenge flag is thrown onto the field. (It's brown, not red)
> 
> Hey, I knew an old couple who complained that their brakes squealed too much, so ya know what I did. I took them stupid brakes off the car. Now they don't have to worry about squealing anymore. Stupid brakes!:whistling2:


I know exactly what Cad is saying in the above post. We still have houses around here that have never been separate, multiple properties tie into one common sewer before it goes to the main, etc... Is it right, he no, but that doesn't change the fact that not all people have complied with changes and code requirement. 

Add to it that some people are exceptionally stupid and will dump whatever they want down a pipe because they figure "Hell I don't know where it goes but down." 

Last evening I could have sworn I smelled Anti-freezer as I was snaking the guys drain. He said that he would never do that, but I know the smell of anti-freeze and have never had any type of chemical drain opener smell like that. 

Anyway, although I am way late to the dance, and so can't address all the argument, I know for a fact that what he is saying can happen, especially when you consider the dumb **** that gets installed in areas with no regulation. 



One other thing, earlier in this thread someone stated that a house trap was a leading cause for backed up drains. In over ten years of plumbing/drain cleaning in an area that still has house traps in some homes I have never once had a house trap be the source of the blockage. 

Yes it created a more difficult situation to snake passing through the drain but it was never the cause. The cause is the same around here typically. Roots, old pipes, tampons, and baby wipes.


----------



## theplumbinator

Around here illegal. So no need for me to argue that they are good or bad. Our state wants the sewers vented through every house on the block period. No house traps.


----------



## theplungerman

When I was new,,,( another when I was new story) ,,, I ran into a house trap once,,, I'm like what the heck. So I can't get by this obstruction ,,, call in a locator guy,,,, dig it up,,, I'm like wow John check this out,,, a 4inch trap 40 ft from the house??? This has to be an old stupid code I think. I don't ask . later I find out It's a small unincorporated part of the city,,, right in the middle of the city,, that LA takes care of. City is long beach. 
So anyway. Where was I? Oh,,, I cut it out, install a two way clean out,, (while nobody is looking) and all is great in Mayberry.


----------



## justme

Hoosier Plumber said:


> I know exactly what Cad is saying in the above post. We still have houses around here that have never been separate, multiple properties tie into one common sewer before it goes to the main, etc... Is it right, he no, but that doesn't change the fact that not all people have complied with changes and code requirement.
> 
> Add to it that some people are exceptionally stupid and will dump whatever they want down a pipe because they figure "Hell I don't know where it goes but down."
> 
> Last evening I could have sworn I smelled Anti-freezer as I was snaking the guys drain. He said that he would never do that, but I know the smell of anti-freeze and have never had any type of chemical drain opener smell like that.
> 
> Anyway, although I am way late to the dance, and so can't address all the argument, I know for a fact that what he is saying can happen, especially when you consider the dumb **** that gets installed in areas with no regulation.
> 
> 
> 
> One other thing, earlier in this thread someone stated that a house trap was a leading cause for backed up drains. In over ten years of plumbing/drain cleaning in an area that still has house traps in some homes I have never once had a house trap be the source of the blockage.
> 
> Yes it created a more difficult situation to snake passing through the drain but it was never the cause. The cause is the same around here typically. Roots, old pipes, tampons, and baby wipes.



Thats not the point, I couldn't care less about a house trap . Its that he tells a story to back up is POV and earlier in thread calls someone a liar for doing the samething. Thats the point. This guy is a @#%$.


----------



## Caduceus

justme said:


> Bull****
> 
> Again, the bullsh*t challenge flag is thrown onto the field. (It's brown, not red)
> 
> Hey, I knew an old couple who complained that their brakes squealed too much, so ya know what I did. I took them stupid brakes off the car. Now they don't have to worry about squealing anymore. Stupid brakes!:whistling2:


Okay. Challenge accepted.
This is one article from the Pittsburgh Post Gazette showing the potential. If you Google Maps West Elizabeth. You'll see its proximity to Clairton. There are more articles, lets see if I can find links to them all.
http://www.post-gazette.com/local/s...-Elizabeth-sewers/stories/2009060202010000000


----------



## jeffreyplumber

Yep read the article looks like back in 2009 somebody pour something down the sewer like what paint, motor oil? Who knows? So end result What happened? NOTHING!


----------



## Caduceus

justme said:


> Thats not the point, I couldn't care less about a house trap . Its that he tells a story to back up is POV and earlier in thread calls someone a liar for doing the samething. Thats the point. This guy is a @#%$.


He was telling a story to be contrary, I was telling an story to prove the existence of the hazard that is being argued against me.
And it's his battle to fight, justme. If you want to get in the middle, then don't expect me to back down to you.
I've dealt with plumbers for years that suddenly have a story to contradict my conversation about the same subject and I already knew it would happen when the conversation started.
And if I understand you correctly, by calling BS on my story, you don't believe that people dump chemicals down sewers? You have never seen a positive/negative ventilation blower for confined spaces used in a manhole? Is it you don't believe that methane gas exists in sewers? Is it that you don't believe a clog in a drain will cause a bottleneck and siphon traps?
I mean really, what is there NOT to believe?
Oh, I guess you were being contrary, too, regardless of the subject. Just to spite me. 
Sounds like another pot calling the kettle black situation.
:thumbsup:

I guess you should also note that when I called BS on him, he didn't argue back....hmmm, wonder why if his convictions are so strong. His reply was simply "House traps suck bro." That's who you're defending? C'mon.


----------



## Caduceus

jeffreyplumber said:


> Yep read the article looks like back in 2009 somebody pour something down the sewer like what paint, motor oil? Who knows? So end result What happened? NOTHING!


Oh, I see your point. So if authorities are notified quickly and handle the situation and nobody gets hurt, then nobody ever, ever has to worry about anything ever happening ever again.
So, in the same line of thinking, if there was a potable water contamination and nobody got hurt or sick, then what is the point of ever installing backflow devices. Nothing happened, right?
It's so clear, now. House traps are a useless bunch of BS for protecting private and public buildings from public sewer contaminants.
I always wondered why we put all of these useless safety devices in homes, since nothing bad ever happened to me why would it happen to anybody.
Guess we should throw out the CO detectors, my furnace is just fine.:whistling2:


----------



## jeffreyplumber

Caduceus said:


> Oh, I see your point. So if authorities are notified quickly and handle the situation and nobody gets hurt, then nobody ever, ever has to worry about anything ever happening ever again.
> So, in the same line of thinking, if there was a potable water contamination and nobody got hurt or sick, then what is the point of ever installing backflow devices. Nothing happened, right?
> It's so clear, now. House traps are a useless bunch of BS for protecting private and public buildings from public sewer contaminants.
> I always wondered why we put all of these useless safety devices in homes, since nothing bad ever happened to me why would it happen to anybody.
> Guess we should throw out the CO detectors, my furnace is just fine.:whistling2:


 Nope Im just saying that the mention of an old newspaper saying something about a hazardous waste spilled in a sewer is hardly any proof of anything. My kid stupidly left the gas cracked on the stove last week could have killed himself therefore what? we must now take every effort imaginable to prevent someone from doing so. We have done nothing to prevent an accident aside from odorizing gas. Your article does nothing to support house traps. I must admit though Im unsure they could actually be worthwhile . I just haven heard a good reason yet. Its kind of like mandatory back up camera on a car. How many homes have these traps in this country how many don't?


----------



## Caduceus

Here's an even better one from Baltimore.
http://www.abc2news.com/dpp/news/re...cuated-after-fire-threat-of-gasoline-in-sewer

Let's see if it ever happened anywhere else....


----------



## Caduceus

And a real doozie in Atlana with gasoline mysteriously filling a public sewer. It's almost as if I wasn't just BSing before.
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/gas-leak-forces-little-5-points-business-evacuatio/ncfFk/

Ruling on the field stands...pick up your bulls**t flag and return to the sidelines. You will be charged with a time out.


Like I said. House traps were designed to solve a problem. How and when plumbing codes forgot about this is a mystery. These are just a few 'stories'. If you want that stuff venting through your house with all of the other gases, too, great for you. When it goes boom, it won't be between my walls. My house trap will keep it underground and away from the structure.


----------



## incarnatopnh

Ok whether they are helpful or not, I don't really care. NYS code states that they are prohibited unless required by local law so the only ones I will ever deal with are old clay ones in the ground


----------



## Caduceus

This Minnesota man barely survived when sewer gas blew up his house. Wonder if he had a house trap?
http://www.twincities.com/ci_20834400/sewer-gas-blamed-southern-minnesota-house-explosion-that


----------



## Caduceus

I guess the new questions are, if somebody can answer them reasonably is this;

Why do we need to vent the sewer mains through our houses anyways?
Is something going to happen to the flow of water?
Does anybody question whether or not making house traps illegal was a bad decision as far as safety is concerned?
Is there a better answer than "because the code says so.."

If you ask "why" about a code, there's an answer. We've discussed clogging to death, but really...why?


----------



## nhmaster3015

Caduceus said:


> I guess the new questions are, if somebody can answer them reasonably is this;
> 
> Why do we need to vent the sewer mains through our houses anyways?
> Is something going to happen to the flow of water?
> Does anybody question whether or not making house traps illegal was a bad decision as far as safety is concerned?
> Is there a better answer than "because the code says so.."
> 
> If you ask "why" about a code, there's an answer. We've discussed clogging to death, but really...why?


I was going to ask if you had a plumbing license or were just a drain cleaner. Your questions above answered mine. :laughing:


----------



## theplumbinator

I personally would prefer a back water valve over a house trap. At least they are easy to clean out if something blocks the swing gate. They would also prevent a sewer back up where a house trap wouldn't.


----------



## Caduceus

nhmaster3015 said:


> I was going to ask if you had a plumbing license or were just a drain cleaner. Your questions above answered mine. :laughing:


Nice one, nhmaster. I've seen you around the forums for years and believe me, you should be the last person to point a finger of doubt at another plumber.
Just because you have the ability to instruct young aspiring plumbers doesn't mean that you're doing it right. Throw your years of experience around and wear that badge proudly because I know the hypocrisy of nhmaster better than even you do. Challenging another person because you are intimidated by him only shows your insecurity and that you have to validate yourself. You keep yourself sharp by reading up on internet posts and claim the new knowledge you get from them as if you invented it.
I've even seen these ridiculous posts from you where you advise on hot water tanks...that "Legionella doesn't die at 140 degrees" was a real hoot. Oh, I could go on about your little 'lab' set ups to recreate all of the possible scenarios that could occur in the plumbing world. But I like to save some stuff for a rainy day. Heck, I got a lotta stuff, though so who knows what I'll pop up with here. Better go back to school before you post facts that are wrong. 

Oh,no. Did I say you were wrong. Oh-oh, Don't want nhmaster t blow his top. At least that was always the worry on the DIY sites. But you did try to help a few people who didn't want to call plumbers. I gotta give you that. You tried.

If you like, I could dig through the archives and find a whole bunch of goodies from your past. What do ya say? Should we take a look?

:laughing:


----------



## Caduceus

I never called your license into question, but if you would like to question mine the gloves will come off.


----------



## theplumbinator

Here we go its Sherman vs Crabtree over house traps lol...


----------



## nhmaster3015

Gotcha. How you been? Haven't heard from you in awhile but I figured I could bait you out of your hole. You know me better than that, I never help anyone, especially the DIY crowd. It's fun ain't it :thumbup:

Hey, pm me when you get a chance.


----------



## Caduceus

nhmaster3015 said:


> Gotcha. How you been? Haven't heard from you in awhile but I figured I could bait you out of your hole. You know me better than that, I never help anyone, especially the DIY crowd. It's fun ain't it :thumbup:
> 
> Hey, pm me when you get a chance.


You might have me confused with somebody else. I don't need to be baited from a hole. I've always been out in the open for all to see and have never had anything to hide. The people who have known me on the forums over the years know that.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Yea, maybe. If so than apologies for questioning your license but you have to admit that your question about venting sewers through the house vents is 1st year apprentice stuff.


----------



## Caduceus

nhmaster3015 said:


> Yea, maybe. If so than apologies for questioning your license but you have to admit that your question about venting sewers through the house vents is 1st year apprentice stuff.


Well, since it has already been established that many regions around the US, including mine, do not vent their sewers through houses why don't you enlighten us all as to what benefit it is to do so.


----------



## wyrickmech

Caduceus said:


> I guess the new questions are, if somebody can answer them reasonably is this; Why do we need to vent the sewer mains through our houses anyways? Is something going to happen to the flow of water? Does anybody question whether or not making house traps illegal was a bad decision as far as safety is concerned? Is there a better answer than "because the code says so.." If you ask "why" about a code, there's an answer. We've discussed clogging to death, but really...why?


 one is simple fresh air if you don't know why I'm sorry I'm not telling. Two fill a straw with water and stick your thumb over the end sewer mains are not sized to run at 1/4 capacity. Three who are you to question generations of plumbers? You have a opinion with very limited facts and a limited understanding of combo nation sewers.why not question something more prudent like why is Oreo double stuffed cookies get smaller every year. There is no great safety concern you see if a house or any building is siphoning traps then it isn't properly vented. If a building has smells from chemicals on a combo sewer then every inlet in the street would be smelling two,that would also be a sign that air flow to the sewer was restricted. The bottom line is like I said before generations of plumbers have made the codes for the health and welfare of there fellow man and it was threw trial and error so who are you to think you are smarter than them.


----------



## Caduceus

wyrickmech said:


> one is simple fresh air if you don't know why I'm sorry I'm not telling. Two fill a straw with water and stick your thumb over the end sewer mains are not sized to run at 1/4 capacity. Three who are you to question generations of plumbers? You have a opinion with very limited facts and a limited understanding of combo nation sewers.why not question something more prudent like why is Oreo double stuffed cookies get smaller every year. There is no great safety concern you see if a house or any building is siphoning traps then it isn't properly vented. If a building has smells from chemicals on a combo sewer then every inlet in the street would be smelling two,that would also be a sign that air flow to the sewer was restricted. The bottom line is like I said before generations of plumbers have made the codes for the health and welfare of there fellow man and it was threw trial and error so who are you to think you are smarter than them.


One: Your focus on combination sewers shows your limited ability to reason.
Two: Your water in the straw analogy doesn't apply to sewers, you obviously don't understand that atmospheric pressure is holding the water in the straw and sucha physical condition cannot occur in sewer mains.
Three: House traps have been in use for well over 100 years, so who are YOU to question generations of plumbers.
Four: Were no discussing venting of fixture traps, you're lost again. 
Five: Again, your focus on combination sewers shows that you don't pay attention, naturally occurring hydrogen sulfide gas and methane are more of a risk, not just chemical spills. Chemicals do end up in sanitary sewers, too.
Six: Circulation of air is not needed in a public sewer.There are many natural physical forces at work with water flow, convection and the densities of existing gases in relation to atmosphere that don't require venting.
To put the public at risk by allowing potentially dangerous gases and using their private domicile as a conduit is not safe.
If by introducing fresh air into a sewer you expect to create some sort of aerobic environment, you are fabricating another unnecessary feature.


----------



## Caduceus

I'll see if I can find a specific reference on the internet as to truly why it's necessary.


----------



## stecar

This thread is ridiculous


----------



## justme

Caduceus said:


> He was telling a story to be contrary, I was telling an story to prove the existence of the hazard that is being argued against me.
> And it's his battle to fight, justme. If you want to get in the middle, then don't expect me to back down to you.
> I've dealt with plumbers for years that suddenly have a story to contradict my conversation about the same subject and I already knew it would happen when the conversation started.
> And if I understand you correctly, by calling BS on my story, you don't believe that people dump chemicals down sewers? You have never seen a positive/negative ventilation blower for confined spaces used in a manhole? Is it you don't believe that methane gas exists in sewers? Is it that you don't believe a clog in a drain will cause a bottleneck and siphon traps?
> I mean really, what is there NOT to believe?
> Oh, I guess you were being contrary, too, regardless of the subject. Just to spite me.
> Sounds like another pot calling the kettle black situation.
> :thumbsup:
> 
> I guess you should also note that when I called BS on him, he didn't argue back....hmmm, wonder why if his convictions are so strong. His reply was simply "House traps suck bro." That's who you're defending? C'mon.



You know that 90% of the nation gets along just fine without house traps, with individual fixture traps. I've never stated you didn't have some good points, its your presentation that is lacking. I know the welcome wagon beat on you a little bit but chill out. You're acting like an abused wife who's had enough.


----------



## Caduceus

stecar said:


> This thread is ridiculous


And getting more ridiculous by the moment.
Wait and see what happens when I start drinkin!:yes:


----------



## incarnatopnh

stecar said:


> This thread is ridiculous


Yuppers. And all I did was ask about a good way to get my cables through.


----------



## Caduceus

justme said:


> You know that 90% of the nation gets along just fine without house traps, with individual fixture traps. I've never stated you didn't have some good points, its your presentation that is lacking. I know the welcome wagon beat on you a little bit but chill out. You're acting like an abused wife who's had enough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dumbass


I think there's a little masochist in all of us, so who am I to say when enough is enough. All I need to do is NOT log on, right?
I just can't help it, it hurts sooooo good.


----------



## Unclog1776

Caduceus said:


> I think there's a little masochist in all of us, so who am I to say when enough is enough. All I need to do is NOT log on, right? I just can't help it, it hurts sooooo good.


House traps suck bro....

Lmao


----------



## Caduceus

incarnatopnh said:


> Yuppers. And all I did was ask about a good way to get my cables through.


 Yeah, but we answered that. 
Then somebody brought up the house trap thing and BLAMMO!
It's my fault, though. :innocent:You can sleep well tonight.:sleeping:


----------



## incarnatopnh

Caduceus said:


> Yeah, but we answered that.
> Then somebody brought up the house trap thing and BLAMMO!
> It's my fault, though. :innocent:You can sleep well tonight.:sleeping:


No sleep tonight... temps are dropping fast here I will be busy


----------



## Caduceus

incarnatopnh said:


> No sleep tonight... temps are dropping fast here I will be busy


Good luck with that. I don't envy you at all.
I was called for overnight OT tonight and turned it down. 
The last deep freeze took too much out of me, time for somebody else to suffer.
We had 24 breaks on a variety of fire systems, water, heating, condensate and chiller lines. Mostly due to people leaving doors, windows or louvers open.
Not me tonight, and be safe.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Looking at minus 4 with 8" of "flurries" on the way. :thumbsup:


----------



## jeffreyplumber

I think its about 75 now hope it doesent drop to the 50s


----------



## incarnatopnh

No snow here tonite but they are saying -8 and -25 wind chills yay


----------



## Redwood

Drain Pro said:


> That's true to an extent. I was merely pointing out that the grease builds up in the trap. No trap,no trap stoppage. The grease isn't clogging trap in or trap out in most of these cases as long as there's no belly, just the house trap. I never said that house traps are not worthwhile. But if I have to explain to any plumber why a house trap contributes to stoppages, they don't understand drains or drain cleaning. I don't care what their license says.


You don't have to explain nuthin to me about house traps...
It's $400 to unclog a line here, I don't care where it's clogged...
Although grease in a house trap seems a lot nicer for me than a root ball at 90+ feet out.... :thumbup:

Fact: The water in the house trap is usually colder and grease emulsified with hot water & detergent comes to a screeching halt as a solid again when it touches the cold water in a house trap...

Fact: My grandfather lived in his home for over 50 years and his house trap never clogged... But then again he poured off grease into a container, placing it in the trash and wiped the grease out of a pan before washing it...

Fact: If you put stuff down a line that doesn't belong there it will cost you $$$....

Fact: When the LAHJ says they want a house trap on the line it stays...

Just my 2¢...


----------



## Redwood

nhmaster3015 said:


> Looking at minus 4 with 8" of "flurries" on the way. :thumbsup:


Yep! We've got about 3" of those flurries on the ground already and are at 12º F right now...
They are coming your way...

We're waiting for the ending that is in Virginia now....:laughing:


----------



## nhmaster3015

jeffreyplumber said:


> I think its about 75 now hope it doesent drop to the 50s


I hate you and everyone in California too. :yes:


----------



## nhmaster3015

Redwood said:


> Yep! We've got about 3" of those flurries on the ground already and are at 12º F right now...
> They are coming your way...
> 
> We're waiting for the ending that is in Virginia now....:laughing:


Maybe get the day off :yes: but pay for it in june


----------



## Redwood

nhmaster3015 said:


> I hate you and everyone in California too. :yes:


Good thing our weather keeps Californians from coming here... :laughing:


----------



## Drain Pro

Redwood said:


> Good thing our weather keeps Californians from coming here... :laughing:


Speaking of the weather, I had to pick up my new work truck from the dealer today. Took me over an hour to get it home in the snow. I was worried the whole time about someone sliding into me on its maiden voyage.


----------



## theplungerman

Drain Pro said:


> Speaking of the weather, I had to pick up my new work truck from the dealer today. Took me over an hour to get it home in the snow. I was worried the whole time about someone sliding into me on its maiden voyage.


Wow, stress city. I see that stuff on the discovery channel. Lol

I ran into my SECOND of all time lateral trap today. And since only second I was like what the heck,,, why can't I get past the inspection box (just the other side of it) of this grease trap. I camera and duh. Drama central for this self taught plumber.


----------



## Drain Pro

theplungerman said:


> Wow, stress city. I see that stuff on the discovery channel. Lol


It wasn't much fun, I'll tell you that much.


----------



## nhmaster3015

On the other hand there's not much chance of my whole state slipping into the ocean :laughing:


----------



## theplungerman

Redwood said:


> You don't have to explain nuthin to me about house traps...
> It's $400 to unclog a line here.


Wow,,, here? you mean your shop, cuz I'm thinking man some drain cleaners need to move to where your hear is.


----------



## Redwood

theplungerman said:


> Wow,,, here? you mean your shop, cuz I'm thinking man some drain cleaners need to move to where your hear is.


You probably couldn't afford the move...

http://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-living/long-beach-ca/darien-ct/50000


----------



## newyorkcity

Contrary to popular belief, we do not have weekly stoppages and manhole explosions from having house traps...
New construction gets them, also. Schools for instance: 8" for the sanitary, and 8" for the storm.


----------



## wyrickmech

newyorkcity said:


> Contrary to popular belief, we do not have weekly stoppages and manhole explosions from having house traps... New construction gets them, also. Schools for instance: 8" for the sanitary, and 8" for the storm.


why would you put one on the storm?


----------



## newyorkcity

wyrickmech said:


> why would you put one on the storm?


On a combined sewer, which most of NYC is, the storm connects with a wye after the sanitary house trap.


----------



## wyrickmech

newyorkcity said:


> On a combined sewer, which most of NYC is, the storm connects with a wye after the sanitary house trap.


wow I thought little Midwestern city's were the only ones left with combo sewers.


----------



## theplumbinator

Most old city's have combined systems in use still.


----------



## theplungerman

Redwood said:


> You probably couldn't afford the move...
> 
> http://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-living/long-beach-ca/darien-ct/50000


Your comparing a small rich community on the eastern coast to the 36th-largest city in the nation and the seventh-largest in California. Really? 
We have rich communities around here too Mr big britches. 
Afford to move??,, I could swing it,,, and I certainly could figure out how to live close enough to $400 drain jobs,,, 400 bucks a pop? ,,, if your working full time that's big bucks territory.


----------



## wyrickmech

theplumbinator said:


> Most old city's have combined systems in use still.


 here In MO I only know of one small town still using combo sewer. Almost all city's and towns have separated there mains. I see why old city's have not though.


----------



## theplumbinator

I was talking more really old city's. 200 year old or better. Probably mostly found on the east coast.


----------



## Keefer w

I worked in Louisville KY for four years. The city had programs to seperate the sewers. The city would pay to have back water valves installed, install a sump, and terminate down spouts above ground. But never saw house traps there.


----------



## Redwood

theplungerman said:


> Your comparing a small rich community on the eastern coast to the 36th-largest city in the nation and the seventh-largest in California. Really?
> We have rich communities around here too Mr big britches.
> Afford to move??,, I could swing it,,, and I certainly could figure out how to live close enough to $400 drain jobs,,, 400 bucks a pop? ,,, if your working full time that's big bucks territory.


Most of the places you'd want to live around here will cost you some serious loot to get into, add to that the basics like high food prices, high property taxes, and high energy prices you'll suffer in the transition...

Of course you could save money by renting an apartment in Dumpford, Bilgeport or, Dirty Water.... 

Just keep covered and keep your head down....
They are Jewels in the Rough...:laughing:

Doing $400 drain cleaning jobs is not a geographical cure...
It just reflects the higher costs of doing business here...
Your profits don't change...
You just have more zeros behind the numbers on your bills...


----------



## Kolenvall

I wanted to be a plumber in your country. I am from Russia/ As i can see you have the same problems, don't you?


----------



## Redwood

nhmaster3015 said:


> Maybe get the day off :yes: but pay for it in june


Well I'm done farting around for the morning...
If you go out too early after a snowfall you just find all the customers haven't cleared the snow from their driveways and walks...

Umm Dude...
I just drove 45 minute to look at your 400' driveway going up a steep hill to your house that isn't plowed out yet...
Didn't you tell our dispatcher you are ready for service...

Most should be ready by now...
They better be...:furious:

I'm ready to go install some SharkBites now!


----------



## theplungerman

Redwood said:


> Doing $400 drain cleaning jobs is not a geographical cure...
> It just reflects the higher costs of doing business here...
> Your profits don't change...
> You just have more zeros behind the numbers on your bills...


I understand your rich communities over there on the wrong coast. :laughing:
Over here on the better coast we have em too. :laughing:
Saying $400 drain jobs just reflects the cost of doing business in that rich community dosn't pencil out. Now if it was one of those proposed communities on Mars there talking about then yeah. :laughing: 
$400 drain clearings?? I say the devil is in the details, and we don't know the details. :yes:


----------



## love2surf927

theplungerman said:


> I understand your rich communities over there on the wrong coast. :laughing:
> Over here on the better coast we have em too. :laughing:
> Saying $400 drain jobs just reflects the cost of doing business in that rich community dosn't pencil out. Now if it was one of those proposed communities on Mars there talking about then yeah. :laughing:
> $400 drain clearings?? I say the devil is in the details, and we don't know the details. :yes:


Here we go again, I see which direction this is heading.


----------



## Drain Pro

I did a sewer stoppage in million dollar home today. No house trap. I was going to tell the residents just how unsafe it was to live there


----------



## Unclog1776

Drain Pro said:


> I did a sewer stoppage in million dollar home today. No house trap. I was going to tell the residents just how unsafe it was to live there


Dude I've been going door to door to all the homes where I had traps removed over the years yelling and screaming and flailing my arms about telling them to evacuate


----------



## newyorkcity

Unclog1776 said:


> Dude I've been going door to door to all the homes where I had traps removed over the years yelling and screaming and flailing my arms about telling them to evacuate


Quote: "Drain Pro I did a sewer stoppage in million dollar home today. No house trap. I was going to tell the residents just how unsafe it was to live there"


That was not the point I was making. My only point is that IMO, house traps work over here, and are a good thing. The reason is due to the densely populated environment here. We have whole neighborhoods full of apartment buildings. Also combined sewers.
In less congested areas, you have no need and are better off without house traps. 
I would love to work in an area where to snake a drain/sewer you don't have to:
-Haul a heavy drum machine down basement stairs.
-Make multiple trips with a sectional when your truck is parked a block away.


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## newyorkcity

Gear Junkie:
My apologies. I did an emergency boiler yesterday, so I could not get you the sanitary riser diagram. Here is one for an upcoming job:


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## Drain Pro

newyorkcity said:


> Quote: "Drain Pro I did a sewer stoppage in million dollar home today. No house trap. I was going to tell the residents just how unsafe it was to live there" That was not the point I was making. My only point is that IMO, house traps work over here, and are a good thing. The reason is due to the densely populated environment here. We have whole neighborhoods full of apartment buildings. Also combined sewers. In less congested areas, you have no need and are better off without house traps. I would love to work in an area where to snake a drain/sewer you don't have to: -Haul a heavy drum machine down basement stairs. -Make multiple trips with a sectional when your truck is parked a block away.


That wasn't directed towards you. We're in the same area by the way, so I see house traps all day. The house without the trap today was in Harrison. Haven't seen that in a while.


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## newyorkcity

Drain Pro said:


> That wasn't directed towards you. We're in the same area by the way, so I see house traps all day. The house without the trap today was in Harrison. Haven't seen that in a while.


No problem. Do you work in NYC?


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## Redwood

theplungerman said:


> I understand your rich communities over there on the wrong coast. :laughing:
> Over here on the better coast we have em too. :laughing:
> Saying $400 drain jobs just reflects the cost of doing business in that rich community dosn't pencil out. Now if it was one of those proposed communities on Mars there talking about then yeah. :laughing:
> $400 drain clearings?? I say the devil is in the details, and we don't know the details. :yes:


Okay! Move here to take a ride on the gravy train... :laughing:

You'll see...


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## theplungerman

Redwood said:


> Okay! Move here to take a ride on the gravy train... :laughing:
> 
> You'll see...


That's it??? :blink: 
your no fun to debate with :no:


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## RW Plumbing

buffaloPlumber said:


> House traps are extremely common here. Even new construction.


That hole looks awful deep to not have shoring...


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## theplungerman

RW Plumbing said:


> That hole looks awful deep to not have shoring...


Yeah I showed my wife the pic and before I said anything she said,,, how come there isn't something from keeping the dirt from caving in.


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## Redwood

theplungerman said:


> That's it??? :blink:
> your no fun to debate with :no:


Your whipped already...
But due to a lack of comprehension you don't realize you are...

Do you really want me to waste my time like that?


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## theplungerman

Redwood said:


> Your whipped already...
> But due to a lack of comprehension you don't realize you are...
> 
> Do you really want me to waste my time like that?


IOW,, Your tapping out? :laughing:


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## Drain Pro

newyorkcity said:


> No problem. Do you work in NYC?


I did for a long time. Now it's mostly Westchester and some Bronx.


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## newyorkcity

Drain Pro said:


> I did for a long time. Now it's mostly Westchester and some Bronx.


Then I need your company info for any Bronx jobs that come my way. And a Westchester license is good to have. I have turned down lots of work and don't have someone to recommend.


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## Drain Pro

newyorkcity said:


> Then I need your company info for any Bronx jobs that come my way. And a Westchester license is good to have. I have turned down lots of work and don't have someone to recommend.


I pm'd you.


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## Redwood

theplungerman said:


> IOW,, Your tapping out? :laughing:


I've never found pleasure in fighting someone whose lead punch is with their face....


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## theplungerman

Redwood said:


> I've never found pleasure in fighting someone whose lead punch is with their face....


Hmmm,, :blink:


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## sierra2000

I've encountered two house traps in my years and both times they had to be cut out. 4" clay, they don't look like the nice picture that was posted on here earlier.


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