# Type "K" copper fittings



## Protech

Nobody seems to make them. What's the point of installing K pipe if the fittings are type L?


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## SewerRatz

Protech said:


> Nobody seems to make them. What's the point of installing K pipe if the fittings are type L?


 I only install K copper underground in one full length from the B-box to the inside of the home. Once inside and above ground the requirement is back to Type L. So I never had the need for any fitting other than flare for underground work.


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## user4

Protech said:


> Nobody seems to make them. What's the point of installing K pipe if the fittings are type L?


All fittings are made from type M copper actually, they are actually heavier wall than M copper from the wrot extrusion process, but they are made out of M copper.


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## Protech

So you are saying that the actual wall thickness of the fittings are the same as the equivalent size K pipe or thicker in all water exposed parts of the fitting?


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## SPH

I'm pricing a job now that is requiring all above slab water piping to be Type K. Not normal for this area.


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## Protech

Again, why even bother with K copper if the fittings are thinner than the pipe? If anything I would want the fitting wall thickness a bit thicker than the pipe.

Almost every pinhole I ever repaired (hundreds) on hard copper was on the fitting not the pipe.

Soft copper is a different story.


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## SewerRatz

How about using cast brass fittings instead?


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## Scott K

The only reason I could see them wanting type K copper is for "longetivity." I did one job in Pitt Meadows SPH where they spec'd type K for the hot lines, and type L for the cold lines.

But if they want longetivity, they should spec Fusiotherm/Aquatherm Fusion Polypropolene. It does have a fire rating and it'll outlast Copper in a lot of applications.


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## Protech

I've got an owner/builder who want a house built with copper. I've explained that copper doesn't do well here but they still want it. If I've got to do it in copper I at least want it to be hard copper and as thick as I can get it. 

I have considered brass fittings but then I’ve got to worry about turbulence, casting defects, and dezincification. 

They good thing is that the system is going to be fed well water with little or no chlorination. In this area, copper water systems last 50-60 years on well water and 15-30 on city water. I’m just being ultra cautious as I make my living removing copper and putting in PEX and I now have a HO making me put copper in. I’m only going to give a 10 year warranty on the copper no matter what kind goes in so it’s not a liability thing; it’s a being able to sleep at night thing.


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## Associated Plum

Nibco's website states

Q: Copper tubing wall thickness is designated “K,” “L” or “M.” What
are the copper fittings applicable to?
A: Copper fittings’ wall thickness is determined by standards (ASME
B-16:22 and MSS-SP-104). These standards address minimum wall
thickness (per size) for the full range of copper fittings and are not​intended to match tubing wall thicknesses.


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## Protech

Sooooooooooo, does that mean the fittings are as thick or thicker than type K?


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## ToUtahNow

Protech said:


> Sooooooooooo, does that mean the fittings are as thick or thicker than type K?


It means if you want to spend $40 you can buy the Standard and find out what the thickness of various fittings are. The manufacturers use to have charts but I can't find one right now. As I recall in the 1/2" through 1" the fittings are closer to a Type L tube thickness and then they get thicker as they increase in size.

Mark


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## Tankless

I think Propress fittings are all type K. How is it they keep the same thinkness during forging?


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## gusty60

Anybody have a micrometer and some fittings handy?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

gusty60 said:


> Anybody have a micrometer and some fittings handy?


 

Got 10,000 copper fittings, but no micrometer.


From what I gather in florida....it's the water, not the piping that's all the things wrong with pipe failures.


I have friends in west pompano beach that has copper piping, so does their neighbors..and nothing of the nature you mention about these copper failures in their parts of the state. 

Don't think I don't I believe....I do. But if that water down there is that caustic to copper, it's destroying other components of the plumbing system as well. 

I had a customer in regards to my 2nd business contact me about fans, and they asked me something I thought was interesting. They asked about the finish/durability of my product. I asked why they was asking and they went on to say that they are about 1 mile from the ocean front, and the moisture in the air literally destroys metal/aluminum products over time. She said that if you look at homes on the waterfront, you'l see random deterioration of window sills, rotting aluminum and other quirky situations that the salt content in the air destroys. << That was a school in Juno Beach Florida.


Somebody ought to file class action lawsuits on behalf of the building industry down in those geographical hot spots where it's destroying the copper, get compensation for the expenses and then put pex in, or copper if the water municipality understands what it's doing to the plumbing systems down there.


If copper started destroying itself in my area, I'd be putting hard pressure on the water district for what they're doing, and I don't care if there's distant timelines before failure. The **** has a 80+ year and going strong reputation up here. 

But then again, there's an area in georgetown kentucky where you can't even think about putting copper in the ground because it's so damn acidic.


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## user4

Protech said:


> Sooooooooooo, does that mean the fittings are as thick or thicker than type K?


They don't have to be, as they go through the annealing process twice instead of once like the tube does.


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## Protech

Says you. As I said before almost every time I find a pin hole on a hard copper system it's on a fitting not the pipe. The 1 in 40 that I find on a hard piece of pipe is from flux or E/C. So If I'm going to put copper in the ground under a slab in an area known to have problems I want the fittings to be thicker.



Killertoiletspider said:


> They don't have to be, as they go through the annealing process twice instead of once like the tube does.


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## Protech

Your friend is correct, south Florida doesn't have any problems. My grand mother lives in Boca Raton and my uncle in North Miami Beach. Both buildings are about 50+ years old and have never had even one leak on the copper except for some dwv waste arms.



Roast Duck said:


> Got 10,000 copper fittings, but no micrometer.
> 
> 
> From what I gather in florida....it's the water, not the piping that's all the things wrong with pipe failures.
> 
> 
> I have friends in west pompano beach that has copper piping, so does their neighbors..and nothing of the nature you mention about these copper failures in their parts of the state.
> 
> Don't think I don't I believe....I do. But if that water down there is that caustic to copper, it's destroying other components of the plumbing system as well.
> 
> I had a customer in regards to my 2nd business contact me about fans, and they asked me something I thought was interesting. They asked about the finish/durability of my product. I asked why they was asking and they went on to say that they are about 1 mile from the ocean front, and the moisture in the air literally destroys metal/aluminum products over time. She said that if you look at homes on the waterfront, you'l see random deterioration of window sills, rotting aluminum and other quirky situations that the salt content in the air destroys. << That was a school in Juno Beach Florida.
> 
> 
> Somebody ought to file class action lawsuits on behalf of the building industry down in those geographical hot spots where it's destroying the copper, get compensation for the expenses and then put pex in, or copper if the water municipality understands what it's doing to the plumbing systems down there.
> 
> 
> If copper started destroying itself in my area, I'd be putting hard pressure on the water district for what they're doing, and I don't care if there's distant timelines before failure. The **** has a 80+ year and going strong reputation up here.
> 
> But then again, there's an area in georgetown kentucky where you can't even think about putting copper in the ground because it's so damn acidic.


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## Andreas

*NDL Industries*

*NDL Industries* has thicker fittings. I think they started in New Zealand years ago when there was a scare of ozone depleting chemicals escaping to the atmosphere.


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## Tommy plumber

Andreas said:


> *NDL Industries* has thicker fittings. I think they started in New Zealand years ago when there was a scare of ozone depleting chemicals escaping to the atmosphere.


 



Please post us an intro. Go to 'Introduction' section.


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## U666A

O.D of type m (or L or K for that matter) is 0.625 thou. O.D of standard 1/2" T is 0.715 thou or very close to 23/32, making for a wall thickness of 0.090 thousandths of an inch, or very very close to 23/256.

Wow, I need a drink.


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## Jammyrft

SPH said:


> I'm pricing a job now that is requiring all above slab water piping to be Type K. Not normal for this area.



being from the area who's requiring that? the contractor or inspector?


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

I did a water (drinking) fountain for the parks dept they required copper k rigid and we used regular fittings and trust me if they could make it more complicated they would

Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone


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## U666A

U.A.til.I.die said:


> O.D of type m (or L or K for that matter) is 0.625 thou. O.D of standard 1/2" T is 0.715 thou or very close to 23/32, making for a wall thickness of 0.090 thousandths of an inch, or very very close to 23/256.
> 
> Wow, I need a drink.


Correction. That number is the overall difference of O.D. In relation to wall thickness. 0.03575 is the actuall wall thickness of a fitting, whereas 0.03125 is the wall thickness of type m copper, assuming that the I.D. Is actually 1/2" (.500) therefore the wall thickness of a standard 1/2" T fitting is .0450 thicker ( or 0.72 over 16) than type M pipe.

I love this forum for the simple fact that it makes my brain work to decipher the riddles and anomalies of the plumbing trade.

Are there any errors or omissions?


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## Widdershins

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> I did a water (drinking) fountain for the parks dept they required copper k rigid and we used regular fittings and trust me if they could make it more complicated they would
> 
> Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone


 The few times I used rigid Type "K" copper below ground I used a expander tool to make my own coupling ends. No branches below ground, though.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

Widdershins said:


> The few times I used rigid Type "K" copper below ground I used a expander tool to make my own coupling ends. No branches below ground, though.


Nice swedger they wouldn't let me and they do whatever they want as far as branches they had freeze protection drain down branch and it all has to be pitched back to their main 
I don't remember the details but I did something backward but since they are backwards it all worked out and they passed the job

Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone


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## Widdershins

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> Nice swedger they wouldn't let me and they do whatever they want as far as branches they had freeze protection drain down branch and it all has to be pitched back to their main
> I don't remember the details but I did something backward but since they are backwards it all worked out and they passed the job
> 
> Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone


 Not sure what the code requirements are in your neck of the woods, but mine are pretty strict about copper connections that are not immediately accessible (Under concrete, asphalt etc. . . . .)

I bought the expander tool to halve the number of brazed joints we use to make when running soft copper lines below grade..

Expanding the copper tube and brazing once instead of using a coupling and heating the pipe and fitting hot enough to braze twice makes the tubing just slightly less brittle.

I have no scientific evidence to back that up, but it sure makes me feel better about the miles of soft copper tubing we've buried below grade over the past 30 plus years.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

Widdershins said:


> Not sure what the code requirements are in your neck of the woods, but mine are pretty strict about copper connections that are not immediately accessible (Under concrete, asphalt etc. . . . .)
> 
> I bought the expander tool to halve the number of brazed joints we use to make when running soft copper lines below grade..
> 
> Expanding the copper tube and brazing once instead of using a coupling and heating the pipe and fitting hot enough to braze twice makes the tubing just slightly less brittle.
> 
> I have no scientific evidence to back that up, but it sure makes me feel better about the miles of soft copper tubing we've buried below grade over the past 30 plus years.


I agree but the parks department have their own rules. They have a system of winterizing the drinking fountains. The only inspection is with them the building department is out of the picture. That's how it works here

Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone


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## Widdershins

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> I agree but the parks department have their own rules. They have a system of winterizing the drinking fountains. The only inspection is with them the building department is out of the picture. That's how it works here
> 
> Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone



Well, like a lot of tools I've bought over the past 30 years, the expander tool is gathering dust in the subterranean shop below our day-to-day shop.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

Widdershins said:


> Well, like a lot of tools I've bought over the past 30 years, the expander tool is gathering dust in the subterranean shop below our day-to-day shop.


I love subterranean shops that's where the cool stuff is always at

Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone


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## U666A

All that painstaking mensuration and nobody cares... Lol


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## Widdershins

U.A.til.I.die said:


> All that painstaking mensuration and nobody cares... Lol


 It's not that we don't care, it's just that we have bigger fish to fry.

As for me, I tumbled to the realization that wrought copper fittings are essentially 'Type M' a good 25 years ago. 

This wasn't exactly an epiphany, y'know, some of us have actually known this for decades.


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## Widdershins

dolargroup said:


> Dolar’s quality assurance and design concept is comparable to the best in the Indian industry. Our businesses work together with one simple and seamless set of values for customers like bakery Equipments, machineries in India.


 
Good morning, Spammy.

I suspect the Ban Hammer will be arriving shortly.


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## U666A

Widdershins said:


> Good morning, Spammy.
> 
> I suspect the Ban Hammer will be arriving shortly.


You believe the nerve of some people?


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## Widdershins

U.A.til.I.die said:


> You believe the nerve of some people?



>chuckles<

Consider for a moment who you're saying that to.:whistling2:


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## U666A

Widdershins said:


> >chuckles<
> 
> Consider for a moment who you're saying that to.:whistling2:


Don't suppose I understand...


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## ToUtahNow

Widdershins said:


> Good morning, Spammy.
> 
> I suspect the Ban Hammer will be arriving shortly.


When you quote a SPAMMER's link it only makes it harder on the Moderators.

Mark


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