# Oatey Sure Vent



## Ron

Allowed where your at or not, we can use them here but only in residential usage, I have yet to install one myself. Can be used for up to 4" 

http://www.oatey.com/Plumber/Shared/ProductGroupDetail/715/Sure+-Vent%C2%AE+Air+Admittance+Valve+500+DFU.html


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## ILPlumber

IL no. IL plumbing code
IN yes. UPC (still have to have 1 main VTR though)


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## Airgap

Residential use allowed, with access.


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## uaplumber

yup, with access on renovations.
Only for island sink on new construction


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## user823

Lot's of older homes around here with "S" traps going through the bottom of the kitchen sink cabinet and not vented. I know about the "S" traps not being legal but we have what we have here. I rebuild them all the time including the studor vents, works like a charm.


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## nhmaster3015

Unfortunatly they are allowed here. When we adopted the IPC, the board pretty much adopted it word for word with very few ammendments. Many of us fought very hard to have the heinous things dissallowed but since most code review boards are infested with whores who's only interest is getting a pay off from manufacturers we were overruled. These and other abominations like Shark Bites are responsible for the dumbing down of the profession. I've been at this for 36 years now and have never ever had to install an aav, nor have I ever had to flat vent a fixture or wet vent a bath group in any damn order. Sure, you can install an aav and get in and out quick but that's not what we learned our profession for (notice I don't use the word trade) Plumbing is a "profession" it requires training, skill and thought. Must we always stoop to the easy way out?


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## gladerunner

No mechanical vents allowed in philadelphia. our code is pretty independent to itself though.


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## smellslike$tome

I went on chronic drain call at a rent house a couple of years ago. Showed all the classic signs of a venting issue. I start looking around outside for vent penetrations, ... I don't find any. I go inside to find the attic access, ... I find none. I ask myself "how could this house have been built with no plumbing vents and no attic access?" I go into the crawl space. The house has obviously been "repiped" at some point. The drainage looks like my kids tinker toys. Well I finally found the vents. Scattered seemingly randomly along the drainage system I found several aav's. Of course the very first time there was ever a mainline blockage resulting in a back up, every one of the aav's was fouled and never worked properly again. Now of course I realize that all of them were improperly installed and that there still was supposed to be at least one fresh air vent through the roof but it served as a very dramatic re-inforcement of what I already new. That is, that a mechanical vent is just that, a mechanical vent and anything mechanical can and will fail one day.


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## nhmaster3015

Yep, and though an s trap is susceptable to siphonage I would rather see an S trap than an AAV under a sink. At least you can run a little water down the drain to re-seal the trap.


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## Bill

We can and do in residential


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## user823

I'm certainly not saying it's the correct way to go but it's a fact that they are used and they do have a use in certain situations. If I do a service call for someone and tell them their kitchen sink is not vented and the proper way to do this job is to vent it to the outside and they balk and won't pay I'm not going to walk off the job, sorry. The aav's are legal to use in a situation like this, I'll use it. There is no way it's going to foul either being any main line blockage will show itself through the basement floor drain before it ever reaches the upstairs kitchen. For example, I have a two story home built in 1916. The kitchen sink looks like it's been moved twice during that time from what I can see in the basement. When I moved into this house 6 years ago I noticed there wasn't a vent for the kitchen. There was no way I was going to start ripping out walls just so I could "properly and professionally" install a vent. I'm a licensed Master Plumber like most of you, I installed the aav and it's been working perfectly for six years.
Regarding shark bites, I carry them. I use them in a tight squeeze. Last time I used one was last summer so it's not very often. I Like them better than the older brass compression couplings with the rubbers.


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## I'mYourTourGuide

Not permissible in Kentucky. Everything has to be re-vented back to the branch vent, then onto the stack.


Although, mobile homes have these, newer ones. Do they have their own plumbing code?

Such as The Home Show, Clayton Homes, etc..


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## I'mYourTourGuide

ironranger said:


> Regarding shark bites, I carry them. I use them in a tight squeeze. Last time I used one was last summer so it's not very often. I Like them better than the older brass compression couplings with the rubbers.


ASSE 1061 type fittings are only allowed up to 2" in Ky.


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## invictus

We call those farmers vents 'round here. Illegal for any use in city limits, but once you get out to the boonies it is fair game for farmers.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

invictus said:


> We call those farmers vents 'round here. Illegal for any use in city limits, but once you get out to the boonies it is fair game for farmers.


 

LOL!! Now all they need is a trail pig to get around dem healsz!


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## trick1

I do agree that an AAV is not the ideal way to properly vent a fixture. I have also been in the position where I've had to use them. We use the IPC and the IRC (International Residential Code) here in Connecticut and they are code approved in both codes.

My feeling is that they certainly aren't a replacement for a stack vent or vent stack but in some instances they can improve the drainage of an individual fixture.

I'm not talking about the old "V-200". As you all know, those had the small springs inside the body of the unit that failed in the closed position, causing a vacuum to form inside the fixture drain, preventing drainage of that fixture. These newer units use a diaphragm, no springs. 

I will make every effort to persuade my clients to spend the extra money to install an individual or common vent. My argument is that simpler, tried and true methods that use only physics to operate will outlast anything that relies on mechanical parts. Sometimes I lose that battle though, and I install an AAV, which still keeps me within the boundaries of my respective state code.

I will refuse to go anywhere near the 3-4" AAV's though. there is something about a unit that effectively closes off a vent to backpressure and is essentially a vacuum breaker that scares the hell out of me!!


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## nhmaster3015

For over a hundred years modern plumbing has been based on a system that uses no mechanical parts. The theory being that the system would always be protected from sewer gas. A very simple thing the P trap is. A true miracle of design. And here we are selling the trade down the river with AAV's and waterless urinals and on the horizon is grey water recycling. All for a few extra dollars. The state expects me to instruct plumbers on the contents of IPC Appendix C, Waste water recycling. I find the topic disturbing to say the least.


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## PipeDreamer

They are permitted in the 2006 National Standard Plumbing Code, which is what we use here in NJ. They are considered a ,"Special Design Plumbing System". To use one the system must be," designed by a registered design professional licensed to practice in the particular jurisdiction". Whatever the hell that means!? 

A friend of mine called the Dept of Consumer Affairs, they oversee all the code officials and are the final word on code interpretation here. He was told that in order to use an aav, the architect would have to submit a sealed drawing for approval. You won't save anyone any time or money that way. This information is buried in the back of the code book in appendix E Part 8. No mention of them in Ch 12 Vents and Venting. However, I believe they can work and be very helpful when installed correctly. We do a lot of work in high end custom homes and if we can avoid tearing up the walls on the second floor when renovating a first floor kitchen or bath, why not?


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## SewerRatz

I love it when I do a job and explain to the home owner the are not allowed in Illinois, then they want to argue the point to use an AAV because Home Depot, and Ferguson plumbing supply sells them. I explain to them that the plumbing code cannot stop anyone from selling stuff that does not meet the code, but it does keep you from using it. Just like an Auto parts store selling items that can make your car not street legal anymore, the law can not stop the sale but can stop the use of it on your car.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Tis true.....and no one is going to police the homeowner replacing their own water heater either. 


There's lots of other ways to blow yourself up....like refilling a lawnmower while it's hot....and you're in a hurry because you did it every time before and never caught yourself on fire.


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## Cal

Same as Bill . 

I think they are OVER allowed .

Cal


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## Redwood

PipeDreamer said:


> They are permitted in the 2006 National Standard Plumbing Code, which is what we use here in NJ. They are considered a ,"Special Design Plumbing System". To use one the system must be," designed by a registered design professional licensed to practice in the particular jurisdiction". Whatever the hell that means!?
> 
> A friend of mine called the Dept of Consumer Affairs, they oversee all the code officials and are the final word on code interpretation here.* He was told that in order to use an aav, the architect would have to submit a sealed drawing for approval.* You won't save anyone any time or money that way.


I like that idea...:laughing:


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## drtyhands

The AAV's don't work with how a plumbing system is designed.

As a professional plumber are we not required to install a anti-siphon to protect potable water for the one in a million chance the water pressure goes negative and the hose is sitting in a pool.

So why is the same level of protection ommitted for a much more frequent occurance of the city jetting out a flat sewer main and blowing sewage out an end of the line W/C with an AAV preventing positive pressure release in the unknowing customers home.


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## SewerRatz

drtyhands said:


> The AAV's don't work with how a plumbing system is designed.
> 
> As a professional plumber are we not required to install a anti-siphon to protect potable water for the one in a million chance the water pressure goes negative and the hose is sitting in a pool.
> 
> So why is the same level of protection ommitted for a much more frequent occurance of the city jetting out a flat sewer main and blowing sewage out an end of the line W/C with an AAV preventing positive pressure release in the unknowing customers home.


This is why I like the Illinois plumbing code. First it says *Mechanical Vents. Mechanical devices shall not be installed in lieu of vent piping.* But you will get the but heads arguing that a Studder AAV is not a Mechanical vent or device. so then they say. *Design. A properly designed and installed venting system, in conjunction with the soil or waste system, is essential to protect trap seals and prevent siphonage, aspiration, or back pressure. The venting system shall be designed and installed to permit the admission or emission of air so that under normal and intended use the seal of any fixture trap shall never be subjected to a pneumatic pressure differential of more than a one (1) inch water column. If a trap seal is subject to loss by evaporation, means shall be provided to prevent loss of the trap seal.*

So them two parts automatically keeps the use of AAV's illegal here. Of course I will run across someone that seems to be an AAV salesman calling me a close minded fool, and the Illinois code is antiquated.


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## SPH

nhmaster3015 said:


> For over a hundred years modern plumbing has been based on a system that uses no mechanical parts. The theory being that the system would always be protected from sewer gas. A very simple thing the P trap is. A true miracle of design. And here we are selling the trade down the river with AAV's and waterless urinals and on the horizon is grey water recycling. All for a few extra dollars. The state expects me to instruct plumbers on the contents of IPC Appendix C, Waste water recycling. I find the topic disturbing to say the least.


 
So change is bad? Progress is bad too??


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## Protech

Most codes that allow the use of aav stipulate that there must be at least one vtr within the building to vent pressure from sewers and septic systems. In Fl, the code used to say that the vtr had to be the same size as the building drain. They removed that part a few years back. Problems is plumbers are now building systems with only one 1 1/2" vtr and everything else is on studors. The good news is they have made me allot of money installing vtr's and re-vents. I will use a studor but sparingly and only if it will actually work for that design.



drtyhands said:


> The AAV's don't work with how a plumbing system is designed.
> 
> As a professional plumber are we not required to install a anti-siphon to protect potable water for the one in a million chance the water pressure goes negative and the hose is sitting in a pool.
> 
> So why is the same level of protection ommitted for a much more frequent occurance of the city jetting out a flat sewer main and blowing sewage out an end of the line W/C with an AAV preventing positive pressure release in the unknowing customers home.


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## nhmaster3015

SPH said:


> So change is bad? Progress is bad too??


 
Not all... Some.

AAV's are for HACK'S 

Two years ago I fired a journeyman plumber for using one on a kitchen sink. Yes it would have been a pain in the ass to vent it properly. Yes it saved time and materials. I DON'T CARE. It's hack plumbing for lazy bastards. What did you all do before these heinous things were invented? I'll tell you what you did. The lazy hacks put in S traps and the rest of us busted our nuts and used our brains to figure out how to do it right.


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## Airgap

Just curious NHmaster, what is your opinion on this type of venting?


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## nhmaster3015

That's one way to do it that not only meets code it will never fail either. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

It's often overlooked also.


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## Redwood




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## Airgap

nhmaster3015 said:


> That's one way to do it that not only meets code it will never fail either. :thumbsup::thumbsup:
> 
> It's often overlooked also.


 I've been trying to figure out a way to not like this setup, but I can't. I'm not sure why I don't like it either. I guess I'm going to try it myself:whistling2:


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## rogeru

They are allowed here ith a few restrictions. They need to be certified to ASSE 1051, the job has to be a renovation or retofit, there has to be at least one 3" stack in the building that continues out thru the roof and a few other minor conditions. Personally I dont like them.
Roger


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## Redwood

rogeru said:


> Personally I dont like them.
> Roger


I think any good plumber shares that opinion...:thumbup:


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## Pipe Rat

I've seen other crap like this in the past. This will keep the service plumbers busy in the future.


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## Protech

Actually, many of the homes in my area are done like this and I've only had to jet 1 or 2 of them.


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## John Craig

*Auto Vent*

I am hesitant to say that we have used them on remodels only when installing a VTR would have been cost prohibitive. 
My question is how would the consumer know when a failure occurred ,Sewer gas, poor drainage ? I think most consumers would wait quite awhile before calling out a plumber I think for right now our use will be limited .




John Craig


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## Down N Dirty

Here in Oklahoma they are allowed. And allowed way too often in my opinion. We are in competition with another company and will probably lose our contracts to them because of the way they cut corners. I went out to one of their jobs the other day(new construction) and saw in the laundry room a 3" riser that was catching a sink and the washing machine, from there reduced to 2", ran above the top plate and the put on a studor vent. The only vent going out the roof was in the master and it was a 1.5" vent. Maybe it will work but I just can't let my men do such a thing.


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## Protech

You aren't aloud to run a pumped sewer line in my area unless you have a legitimate reason (house lower than city tap, only path to tap is thru or under a structure, etc). You have to run a gravity sewer and only if there is a just reason can you put in a lift station and run a pressure line.

I think they should do the same for studors(AAVs). You shouldn't be permitted to just install them here and there just because you don't feel like running a vtr or re-vent. You should have a valid reason such as it being extremely cost prohibitive to run a loop vent or wet vent. When I say cost prohibitive I mean several hundred if not thousand dollars more to do it with an actual vent.


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## plumbob1234

Alberta building code allows where no vent to outside air is accessable (basement developments) on renos. but only on island sinks in new const.


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## uaplumber

And for my 1000th post.....
plumbob, give us an intro. I am sure your a plumber from your post, but say hi.


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## SewerRatz

uaplumber said:


> And for my 1000th post.....
> plumbob, give us an intro. I am sure your a plumber from your post, but say hi.


 Gratz on reaching the 1000 post milestone.


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## plumbob1234

Hello all, ua, good to see a fellow canuck in here. An intro you request, so an intro you shall have. My names Bob, im a 37 yr old Edmontonian, with around 8 yrs in the trade, mostly on service, specializing in commercial hydronics.


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## Airgap

:clap:1 Grand, congratz


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## Plasticman

I don't see what all the fuss is about with aav's If the code allows them, why not save yourself some time and money on the tubset and forget about running a vent. Code is code. Some jurisdictions allow things that others don't. After all, Florida allows pex, why not aav's? Sorry Protech. The devil Duck made me do it. :laughing:


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## Kyle181

here in michigan they are code approved , you just need one vtr half the size of the required building drain, so in most of the newl resturants ,small commercial, and strip malls all the drains are vented with aav's and there is one 1.5" or 2" vtr, and actually we did one 20,000 sq. ft building with 9 baths, a commercial kitchen, laundry, and all kinds of fixtures with all aav's and 1 single vtr.... im not the boss, i just do as he says


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## Plumberman

Kyle181 said:


> here in michigan they are code approved , you just need one vtr half the size of the required building drain, so in most of the newl resturants ,small commercial, and strip malls all the drains are vented with aav's and there is one 1.5" or 2" vtr, and actually we did one 20,000 sq. ft building with 9 baths, a commercial kitchen, laundry, and all kinds of fixtures with all aav's and 1 single vtr.... im not the boss, i just do as he says


Thats alot of mechanical devices that will eventually fail. Let me guess no access to them either?


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

Code here IPC, you have to provide an access to the AAV's or you no Passy spection.


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## Plumberman

Not code approved here...


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## HALO3

What the majority of plumbers fail to realize is what is the best option to protect the integrity of the trap seal. A few of you fellas are correct in saying an AAV cannot be used on any pump system, ex. washing machine... A vent should be installed accordingly if conditions dictate such. When in doubt, push one out. AAV's have their advantages, island sinks, existing fixture drains which are not trapped, kitchen sink and lav drains. Exhaust all options to protect the integrity of the trap seal.


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## HALO3

Correction, existing fixture drains which are not trapped.


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## HALO3

Correction #2, existing fixture drains which are not vented! It's late and I'm tired.


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## njoy plumbing

I'll bet the guys pouring lead joints totally freaked when they heard that something called copper was coming on line, eh?!


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## plumbob1234

The thing they kept jamming down our throats at NAIT (trade school), is that it is a mechanical device, therefore has the pottential to fail. Do I agree, sometimes yes, sometimes no.


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## nhmaster3015

Kyle181 said:


> here in michigan they are code approved , you just need one vtr half the size of the required building drain, so in most of the newl resturants ,small commercial, and strip malls all the drains are vented with aav's and there is one 1.5" or 2" vtr, and actually we did one 20,000 sq. ft building with 9 baths, a commercial kitchen, laundry, and all kinds of fixtures with all aav's and 1 single vtr.... im not the boss, i just do as he says


 
Your boss is a hack :whistling2:


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## nhmaster3015

njoy plumbing said:


> I'll bet the guys pouring lead joints totally freaked when they heard that something called copper was coming on line, eh?!


Yes, but we got over it last month.:thumbsup:


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## Scott K

You can always give the homeowner the option if they are code approved. You can tell him/her that he could have a flood one day, OR, tell him you gotta cut his wall open to run a proper vent. Get it in writing and you're golden.

In BC where I live they are code approved for Island fixtures only and a few inspectors I know don't like them and are exceptionally finicky about ever approving them unless they are an absolute last resort, which I appreciate. 

I think a distinction does need to be made though - there are "cheater" vents, and then there are approved Air Admittance Valves. One meets a standad, usually the ASSE one if I'm not mistaken, the other does not.


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## Kyle181

Plumberman said:


> Thats alot of mechanical devices that will eventually fail. Let me guess no access to them either?


 no, we have to have access to all of them, so access was provided


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Roast Duck said:


> LOL!! Now all they need is a trail pig to get around dem healsz!


 I wrote this post!


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