# Bidding



## I'mYourTourGuide

I'm new to the bidding process of a commercial job and was curious of how it worked.

We done a school about 2 years ago and the supplier (Ferguson) won that bid, the supplier bid. . So that kinda threw me for a loop .. . I'm use to pricing labor & material or just labor on a job. . 

How does it work to bid a big commercial job in?


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## Plumber_Pete

I believe that it is your responsibility to bid material and award that bid. Depends on the job, but I have seen some where all fixtures are provided by the owner and some that require the plumber to supply. But all floor drains, primers, backflow devices, floor sinks stuff like this you need to bid.


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## ILPlumber

We bid jobs based on materials, labor, and profit. Don't normally bid jobs where someone else supplies material. I want to make a markup on it and the customer wants a turn key complete job. If I supply something and there is a problem, I fix it. If the owner supplies it, it gets a little sticky if there is defective materials.


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## GrumpyPlumber

*I'll take a stab at this with what little I know on commercial bidding.*
*It's a numbers game, bid as many jobs as you can, bid high and wait to see what comes back.*
*Your better off not getting larger jobs at low rates than getting high cost jobs at under-bids.*
*I have seen my share of new shops loose their shirts when they fall a few weeks behind and cannot make payroll before the next incrimental check is due.*
*I saw a comment elsewhere on this forum about Ferguson bidding commercial jobs(?)...*
*IF thats so, forget it...you won't match their stock pricing...which arouses questions on whether it's true that they do plumbing and whether it's not an illegal conflict of interest.*


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## user4

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *I saw a comment elsewhere on this forum about Ferguson bidding commercial jobs(?)...*
> *IF thats so, forget it...you won't match their stock pricing...which arouses questions on whether it's true that they do plumbing and whether it's not an illegal conflict of interest.*


It is not unusual on large commercial projects for the GC to get a quote on the fixtures and supply them to gain the markup that can be made on them.

What you are bidding is going to dictate what parameters you use to bid it, a school would be much different than a high rise, because government work is going to be prevailing wage, and you can bid it exactly as drawn because government jobs only have to meet BOCA code. A high rise you have to bid a bit different, because if you have someone on staff that can do design, you can work with the architect after you are awarded the job to start eliminating stacks, an eliminated stack can add up to hundreds of thousands of dollars saved on the job. High rise work is all about being able to size and design systems that can provide for the building with the fewest number of stacks.


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## Bill

I do plumbing for a GC who is in WVA and he supplies all materials. I just do labor. Sometimes I have had GC's give me thier labor number and wait to see if i can do it for that amount.


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## user4

USP45 said:


> I do plumbing for a GC who is in WVA and he supplies all materials. I just do labor. Sometimes I have had GC's give me thier labor number and wait to see if i can do it for that amount.


Labor only is a poor way to run a business, it makes it very difficult to cover any mistakes you may make when estimating it.


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## Bill

yeh, I know. But I had a bad year. My son got into trouble and my wife asked (Told) me we had to bail him out. We did, he skipped court. Cost me 90,000.00:furious:

Put me in one hell of a bind. Dont have much money to back up materials right now. Am getting back out the hole soon.

Lesson, kids get locked up, tough luck


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## 22rifle

USP45 said:


> yeh, I know. But I had a bad year. My son got into trouble and my wife asked (Told) me we had to bail him out. We did, he skipped court. Cost me 90,000.00:furious:
> 
> Put me in one hell of a bind. Dont have much money to back up materials right now. Am getting back out the hole soon.
> 
> Lesson, kids get locked up, tough luck


Sorry to hear that man. Really am. Proud of you for going on.


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## Bill

22rifle said:


> Sorry to hear that man. Really am. Proud of you for going on.


Thanks. Its not been easy. Thats why I can not afford the materials on larger commercial jobs. I am not scared of them, aint nothing but pipes. I am just determined to get my share of what this world owes me and whosever share that dont want it!


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## ILPlumber

Most small shops I see trying to get into the larger scale commercial jobs come up on the huge hurdle of not being able to get the performance bond. Gotta have a pretty big net worth and be fairly liquid to retain one.


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## 422 plumber

My boss told me that we need to make at least 20 percent on whatever we get. So, our dollar per hour reflects that. We don't make our money on markup.


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## PaulW

Is anyone using an estimation software or program they are happy with?


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## aadams

Through my years I found that it is best to bid labor and the materials to rough-in for and install owner or G C supplied fixtures. I know I may be loosing a profit margin I could be making on the fixtures. Say you supply the fixtures and one or more have a defect than there goes your markup profit and than some. Having to uninstall fixture running to supply house to try and get one with out a defect then finding out its out of stock and will have to be special ordered. I have also ran into times where G C want to try put off paying for finale payment by clamming a wrong fixture was installed. So I let the owners and G C supply the fixtures and if problems arise it's on them. I just tell them call me after you get it straighten out. Then I will return to install the new fixture. That way is no lost time on me and I am free to do other jobs.


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## aadams

Listen and learn of the proper way to apply markup lets say your cost to do the job is $500 labor and materials to figure a 20% markup you minus 20 from 100 = 80 than you take the $500 and divide by .80 which will give you a selling price of $625 Also in the $500 dollar cost don't forget to include the 2 types of overhead cost direct and indirect which is always there even if you are not making money.


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## plbgbiz

Whether or not you supply materials should not affect your profit.

Let's say you want to clear $500 on a project after all overhead and related expenses are paid.

If you provide labor and fixtures, you might want to clear $250 above your overhead on your labor and clear $250 above your cost on providing materials. In the end your earned the $500 profit you feel you deserve.

Now, just because the GC decided he want to make a buck on the toilets, do you believe you are worth $500 less? I certainly hope not. So if he wants to provide all the little widgets and do the running to make that magic happen then so be it. It shouldn't change the fact that you need to clear $500 at the end of the job. So your labor rate has to be higher if you're not getting your profit from the materials.

No different than a residential customer supplied fixture. That is why in general my customers requesting an itemized estimate will see fixtures at or near our actual cost. That is because I sell a completed service and skill, not fixtures. Your service and expertise as a plumber is worth XX dollars no matter who the errand boy is that picked up the toilets from the supply house. At the end of the day, a plumbing truck HAS to generate a certain amount of net $$. I don't care if you are changing bib washers or installing 14K gold sinks. Your bills are the same so you have to generate the same revenue.

Deciding what your going to make based on what fixture you can sell is silly. The ability for plumbers to CONSISTENTLY sell materials at a specified markup as part of their core revenue is not economically sound. Those days started to fade when Builders Square opened and continue to fade with the strength and buying power of Home Depot, Lowe's, and the internet. If you want to make money on materials, open a supply house or hardware store. Otherwise, realize the edge you really have is selling your expertise because that is not on the shelf at any store.

If you bid bigger jobs based on the net money you want regardless of who supplies widgets, you will likely lose most if not all of them because those projects are all geared to only one person getting a real profit...the GC. Any money you make will always be viewed by him as money he lost. It's a losing game that too many plumbers foolishly think they can win.


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## 422 plumber

We work mostly industrial, a little commercial and schools. We mark up 10%. A lot of our stuff is T&M. We include the supply tickets with their prices on them, marked up 10%. Our labor is about 110 an hour. Some customers we drop the labor and mark up 30%. It still usually comes out the same. On bids, I mark up material 20% to cover supply house screwups, defective fixtures, and the time spent straightening out the mess.


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## OldSchool

no wonder for the passed 5 years or so my bids on commercial and industrial is been so high compared to everyone else.

I always make sure on my bids that I have a huge window to clear a profit.

I always max out my labour rates and when it comes to material I used full alpriser pricing. and then I mark that up.....

At the end of it all once everything is added up .... material , labour, rental, equipment, overhead and etc. 

And then I put another 10% on top of my total....

The last 10% is for the hold back.... which is always a fight to get the full amount...... so if I dont get it ...no big deal....and if I get it great...I just made a nice 10% bonus on the whole job..


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## plbgbiz

Shame on you OS for trying to make a profit without asking for permission from the GC. :no:


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## Tommy plumber

The bldg contractor that uses me for re-models one time comes back and beats me up with my bid price. I catch on quick. Now I add a 'cushion'. I know, I know, some of you say don't lower the price by one cent. But I wasn't willing to walk away from a particular job so I came down a few bucks. So now with the 'cushion' if I have to lower a price, I will still get the price I originally wanted and more importantly, the cust thinks he's getting something. If my original price sticks, I earn a little bit more.


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## plbgbear

I've been a commercial plumbing estimator for about 8 years and I've had to bid jobs different ways depending on the GC request. Most of the time I don't like to mess with bidding jobs unless I can't bid the whole package. I usually got bid from fixture suppliers like Fergusons, Moore, and others for the fixtures and added the mark up for our part. I think it's just better to have a turn key price. It's better for the customer cause I'll usually warranty it for a least a year on workmanship plus whatever the warranty will be for that particular fixture. But you can't always do that. I've bid them labor only before also where the gc supplies all material and fixtures. Again, just depends on the size of job and what GC you bidding too. :rockon:


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## suzie

I just bid a resturant where all the fixtures were supplied by owner. did take -off of material tallied that number, figured hours to plumb counted fixtures. added in profit. gave bid.


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## Eric

On a large scale bid, do you guys give a total price or separate labor and material?


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## ILPlumber

total package.
There are many things in a bid besides material and labor.
After I am awarded the job it gets broken down in a schedule of values. For example an aia form...


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## Associated Plum

Tommy plumber said:


> The bldg contractor that uses me for re-models one time comes back and beats me up with my bid price. I catch on quick. Now I add a 'cushion'. I know, I know, some of you say don't lower the price by one cent. But I wasn't willing to walk away from a particular job so I came down a few bucks. So now with the 'cushion' if I have to lower a price, I will still get the price I originally wanted and more importantly, the cust thinks he's getting something. If my original price sticks, I earn a little bit more.


If the contractor/owner wants you to drop your price after you have given them the bid, ask them what they would like to have removed from your quote to be able to drop the price that would fit their revised plumbing budget.


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## U666A

Associated Plum said:


> If the contractor/owner wants you to drop your price after you have given them the bid, ask them what they would like to have removed from your quote to be able to drop the price that would fit their revised plumbing budget.


Brilliant. Stick to your guns. That's the "friends I've got, it's paying customers I'm accepting..." attitude. I love it.


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## Tommy plumber

Associated Plum said:


> If the contractor/owner wants you to drop your price after you have given them the bid, ask them what they would like to have removed from your quote to be able to drop the price that would fit their revised plumbing budget.


 



You are right. I don't think that way anymore. In fact, after that post, I told that GC I'm not lowering my price in the future. He and I butted heads a few times on that job and one other. The guy got under my skin with some garbage that he pulled, and my attitude is different now than it was some months ago. My material supplier doesn't lower my price, my insurance company doesn't lower my price, my local gas station doesn't lower my fuel price, etc, etc....so I won't be either.


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## ILPlumber

If you lower it once. You just as well plan on lowering it everytime in the future with that contractor.


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## Protech

and any other contractor that gets wind of it.



ILPlumber said:


> If you lower it once. You just as well plan on lowering it everytime in the future with that contractor.


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## PrecisionPlumb

Il never do a job without suppling materials again. Im working on a job now where the contractor is supplying them. he never has what I need. He always forgets things on my list and got a RH tub instead of LH. Its getting old and im losing money by waiting all the time. Ill never do it again


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## Eric

PrecisionPlumb said:


> Il never do a job without suppling materials again. Im working on a job now where the contractor is supplying them. he never has what I need. He always forgets things on my list and got a RH tub instead of LH. Its getting old and im losing money by waiting all the time. Ill never do it again


 
too bad you didn't have it in writing that there would be fees for issues like what your experiencing... That would lite a fire...


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## PrecisionPlumb

Im not worried about it. Everytime they delay me I delay them back. They now know they never want to supply their own materials again. But then again it is service master so go figure


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