# Insulation in attic



## PlumberJoeOk (Nov 18, 2013)

The minimum code here in Oklahoma for insulation in attic on water lines is just the cheap black armaflex pipe insulation ... Anyone know how cold it has to get in an attic to freeze insulated pipes ... I usually insulate withe the minimum plus wrap the pink wall r-30 vat insulation ... But it's supposed to get down to zero here and was wondering how cold it could get in attics....


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## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

Just consider that water freezes at 0 celcius, 32 Fahrenheit, it doesn't change because its in the attic! If you're worried there's always the trick of leaving a faucet running as slow as you can get it to: running water will not freeze. Years ago I used to get calls for mobile homes where their main water supply had frozen; I would thaw the line and once it was going I would have them leave something running, or intentionally misadjust the toilet float valve to run constantly (then they can't forget and shut the faucets by habit after use). This was just a temporary work-around as I'd have to get back with heat trace cable and more pipe insulation, but this would often happen on OT at night. Sometimes I'd thaw with a General Hot Shot & cables, but sometimes I'd just run a propane construction heater under the trailer until the freeze let go (less crawling).


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## PlumberJoeOk (Nov 18, 2013)

So does anyone kkow how cold an insulated pipe has to get before freeZing


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

PlumberJoeOk said:


> So does anyone kkow how cold an insulated pipe has to get before freeZing


You don't install fooking pipes in attic where freezing may occur! Same imply to installing on outside walls..


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## PlumberJoeOk (Nov 18, 2013)

Every old house on a slab here has the waterlines rerouted in attic.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

PlumberJoeOk said:


> So does anyone kkow how cold an insulated pipe has to get before freeZing


32 degrees will freeze it up.

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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

PlumberJoeOk said:


> So does anyone kkow how cold an insulated pipe has to get before freeZing


Simple 32 degrees. Insulation does not keep pipes from freezing, if the ambient temperatures stay at or below freezing, it may slow the process down, or as in the other post you keep water moving through the line which is above freezing.

Water in insulated pipes that is not moving will eventually get to freezing, insulation will slow things down.

Today in our area it is about 6-10 below zero with windchill's down to about 30-40 below. Gonna get colder tonight. Unless lines are heated in questionable areas I can see service calls going up.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

CaberTosser said:


> Just consider that water freezes at 0 celcius, 32 Fahrenheit, it doesn't change because its in the attic! If you're worried there's always the trick of leaving a faucet running as slow as you can get it to: running water will not freeze.


Hey bro, Niagara Falls has froze over!

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## PlumberJoeOk (Nov 18, 2013)

Anyone. Ever use the heat tape stuff that you plug in and wrap around pipe?


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

PlumberJoeOk said:


> Anyone. Ever use the heat tape stuff that you plug in and wrap around pipe?


All the time, but it has to be metal pipe. Bare pipe, then heat trace, then insulate. Best way is to plug it into a *Thermo-cube*, it activates at 35 degrees, and shuts off at 38.


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## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

422 plumber said:


> Hey bro, Niagara Falls has froze over!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Sure it may have, but it didn't have 80 PSI behind it! Also, note that I'm speaking from experience  . Ever see concrete trucks driving through traffic in the winter where their washdown garden hose is intentionally set to dribble and you can tell they fill their supply tank with hot water because of the steam coming off of it? (I suspect they may even have an internal heating coil supplied from the engines cooling system).


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## PlumberJoeOk (Nov 18, 2013)

422 plumber said:


> All the time, but it has to be metal pipe. Bare pipe, then heat trace, then insulate. Best way is to plug it into a Thermo-cube, it activates at 35 degrees, and shuts off at 38.[/QUOTE
> So the heat tape won't work on PEX ? I had a PEX line freeze this weekend when I had a ton if insulation around it ... Trying to figure how to keep it from freezing again if they aren't smart enough to keep water running


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

If you look at the packages, they all say for metal pipe only. That heat trace gets awful hot, it could possibly turn the cement liquid, or weaken the the structural integrity of it.


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## Gruvplumbing (Dec 26, 2013)

PlumberJoeOk said:


> The minimum code here in Oklahoma for insulation in attic on water lines is just the cheap black armaflex pipe insulation ... Anyone know how cold it has to get in an attic to freeze insulated pipes ... I usually insulate withe the minimum plus wrap the pink wall r-30 vat insulation ... But it's supposed to get down to zero here and was wondering how cold it could get in attics....


You can install water lines in an attic and not have to worry about them freezing. If they are insulated CORRECTLY!!! I prefer not to install them in an attic but sometimes you don't have a choice. First the water lines have to lay right on top of the trusses. DONT use any armaflex or pipe insulation. And when it is insulated with the batts of insulation just lay the batts on top of the pipes. And make sure there is no insulation in between the pipe and the finished interior wall or ceiling. Doing it that way allows the warmth from the interior space get to the pipes with out losing the heat. As long as the insulation is on top of the pipe and not in between the pipe and the finished space. Also keep in mind I don't live were it gets to -30 and stays like that for weeks on end. It might get down to 0 for acouple of days and maybe -20 for one night every 20 years.


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

PlumberJoeOk said:


> Anyone. Ever use the heat tape stuff that you plug in and wrap around pipe?


They do make a self regulating heat tape that you can wrap around plastic. Very expensive, but works fantastic.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

redbeardplumber said:


> They do make a self regulating heat tape that you can wrap around plastic. Very expensive, but works fantastic.



Yep "Frostex was developed years ago for use on the pipe line, works great, self-regulating, unlike heat trace can be overlapped.
http://pentairthermal.com/products/...ng/?id=tcm:432-27758&catid=tcm:432-17783-1024

In our area, you don't want to put water lines in an attic, and with the new "Energy Codes" being mandated in Illinois and (soon other states, by Federal Mandate) you won't want to consider it as an option, since it will affect the thermal envelope (with blanket type) and affect your Hers rating or ResCheck compliance.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Your best bet on having pipe in the attic is to keep it as close to the warmth of the structures ceiling. Insulating won't keep it from freezing, just might prolong it a bit. 

Never heard of heat tape harming PEX? I use this, can be used on plastics:

https://www.wrap-on.com/products/phc.html


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Since the ads been here.. the best way now is to use the warm baked Subway to keep the pipes from freezing.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> Since the ads been here.. the best way now is to use the warm baked Subway to keep the pipes from freezing.


I think the best way would be to put your subway back in the subway thread. There is no need for you to attempt muddying everybody else's threads. :thumbsup:


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Okay.. here's my way to keep the attic pipes from freezing... runs a recirc line next to the feeds.. box it in and cover with insulation.. instant hot water anywhere and no frozen pipes..old hydronic heating trick


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> I think the best way would be to put your subway back in the subway thread. There is no need for you to attempt muddying everybody else's threads. :thumbsup:


Since there are subway links in this thread....I say your both right.....:hammer:


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> Since the ads been here.. the best way now is to use the warm baked Subway to keep the pipes from freezing.


Can you stick pipe to an outside wall with this magic Subway? I bet it would work even better than duct tape.


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