# Shout out to SewerRatz



## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Ron has posted about setting toilets with plumber's putty and I started doing it on cast iron collars, because I noticed most wax rings just get pushed into the opening and don't seal. 
My question for Ron and others is: have you used putty to seal urinals or wall hung toilets? Zurn Neo-Seals or that style costs about 25 bucks at our supply house, putty is way more economical, if it works.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

I also use putty on cast iron. Wax rings don't fit em. Just make sure to clean off old wax with mineral spirits if previous plumber set water closet with wax. Never done it on walk hung


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

I've done it on urinals, sealed a lot better than wax or gaskets I felt. Had one where I tried a gasket and it leaked, puttied it and it was good.

Never tried on a wall hung, don't run into too many..


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

What's wrong using rubber gasket?? They oulasts those hackery wax gasket.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

rjbphd said:


> What's wrong using rubber gasket?? They oulasts those hackery wax gasket.


I use them, also. They have 2 holes prepunched for the johnny bolts, and work great on cast iron. My beef with them is that they are too thick to use unless the flange is even with or a little under for them to compress enough.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I've never had a problem using no-seep's on CI. What am I missing?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

422 plumber said:


> I use them, also. They have 2 holes prepunched for the johnny bolts, and work great on cast iron. My beef with them is that they are too thick to use unless the flange is even with or a little under for them to compress enough.


They come in varoius sizes... I charged them double due to having them on the truck and customers don't want to deal with wax gasket again. One thing you won't see at big box stores as they don't want to carry all different sizes and credit the unused (used) ones.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Ive never used anything but wax or foam rubber type rings or gaskets. Putty is not approved by code. For any type of use on a WC here so I dont use it. I phenoseal toilet base or urinal to floor or wall also as per code, no putty there either. putty is gonna dry out and leak? No? Im all about old timer tricks but this sounds like hackery to me.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> I've never had a problem using no-seep's on CI. What am I missing?


I never use no seep, guess I just have a personal hate for them. So I can't speak for them, but a standard ring has to tight of a radius to fit a 4" cast iron flange. Putty allows me to custom make one to fit.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

Install a Dutchman and your waxseal will fit.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Olemissplumber said:


> Install a Dutchman and your waxseal will fit.


What in the heck is a Dutchman? Maybe ive seen one before but never knew what it was called?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

theplumbinator said:


> What in the heck is a Dutchman? Maybe ive seen one before but never knew what it was called?


Its much better than the flying Frenchman ..


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

^^^^^^^ hahaha


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

I just gently squeeze around the wax until it fits. No no-seeps for me. I find them pushed down inside the flange. 

But putty would work with basically any application. I took out a 70 year old toilet a few days ago that was set in putty and it had never been pulled.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Floor mount water closets, no matter what the make of the flange, I use putty. I have had some commercial places were the sewer gases are very warm and melt away the wax in time. That is not an option for me.

As for urinals, I never tried putty. But I did get hooked on the *cringes at the thought of being flamed* fernco wax free urinal seal. I keep a can of acetone on the truck to clean off any old residue on the urinal. http://www.fernco.com/plumbing/hot-products/ferncos-urinal-seal But I did pick up a dozen of these at an Ace Hardware for a buck each. They ordered them by mistake. First time I used it I did not follow the directions and attached it to the urinal, and had nothing but trouble. Then I took the time to read the instructions, and learned that you insert it into the pipe, then peal away the protective cover, and then set the urinal, never had an issue since.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Olemissplumber said:


> Install a Dutchman and your waxseal will fit.


Is that a brand of wax ring or something?


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> Floor mount water closets, no matter what the make of the flange, I use putty. I have had some commercial places were the sewer gases are very warm and melt away the wax in time. That is not an option for me.
> 
> As for urinals, I never tried putty. But I did get hooked on the *cringes at the thought of being flamed* fernco wax free urinal seal. I keep a can of acetone on the truck to clean off any old residue on the urinal. http://www.fernco.com/plumbing/hot-products/ferncos-urinal-seal But I did pick up a dozen of these at an Ace Hardware for a buck each. They ordered them by mistake. First time I used it I did not follow the directions and attached it to the urinal, and had nothing but trouble. Then I took the time to read the instructions, and learned that you insert it into the pipe, then peal away the protective cover, and then set the urinal, never had an issue since.


I didn't know they made them in 2"! I just used the 4x3 Monday. We were installing new fixtures in a locker room remodel. One of our plumbers, with about 25 years experience, set a toilet and it leaked. I told him I would deal with it. I pulled it, and the abs waste horn was cracked. It's the kind that's 3.5" that bells out to 4". This job was under massive time pressure, the facilities manager told me I didn't have time to dig out the old horn, and replace it. It would take too long to get a hot work permit to heat up a piece of metal and melt the crack closed. So I used the Fernco, it was a super tight fit, and worked like a charm.


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

Did somebody say plumbers putty is hackery????? sheeesh in this day and age anyway we set toilets in America is pure hackery I don't care if it's wax, putty , foam doesn't matter. It is pure hack work we do everyday.

there has got to be a good positive pipe to toilet system out there.

wax ring and a 2 bolt flange. what garbage


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

saysflushable said:


> Did somebody say plumbers putty is hackery????? sheeesh in this day and age anyway we set toilets in America is pure hackery I don't care if it's wax, putty , foam doesn't matter. It is pure hack work we do everyday.
> 
> there has got to be a good positive pipe to toilet system out there.
> 
> wax ring and a 2 bolt flange. what garbage


No one has come up with a better mouse trap yet. Toto has that Gray plastic thing but it still uses a wax ring and two bolts on a standard flange. So I guess the Japs made an attempt to come up with something else.


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

theplumbinator said:


> No one has come up with a better mouse trap yet. Toto has that Gray plastic thing but it still uses a wax ring and two bolts on a standard flange. So I guess the Japs made an attempt to come up with something else.


 
I think that is only to adapt to our antiquated way of setting toilets. I wonder if that is what they do in Japan. 

In iraq we would set a goofy looking thing for a seal (like toto's seal) but the toilet was bolted to the floor. No flange. I'm Not sure how good that worked because I didn't work in the plumbing department long


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

The old American standards that flushed forward and had the wall hung tanks were bolted to the floor, back in the day they had 4 holes two in front and two for flange. But that's the only toilet ive ever seen with that set up. And you dont find them in service too often anymore. But they still used the same type of flange we still use today. I have seen some really old building with just lead peened over the finished floor, no flange and studs screwed into the floor also. Dont know if that was old timer hackery or just how they used to do it. I ofcourse installed a brass flange bar soldered it in and screwed it to the floor. Every now and then you find something that you have never seen b4.


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## bgore (Apr 11, 2013)

I didn't think putty was good until I worked foe a shop an that's all we used on floor mount toilets. Actually easy and better than wax. Removing old putty can really suck though, it will get rock hard in twenty years or so. I'm sold on it


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## phishfood (Nov 18, 2012)

I'm sold on new members posting introductions.


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## bgore (Apr 11, 2013)

Would love but where


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

bgore said:


> Would love but where


Click forums, then click plumbing forum, then introductions, that simple. Make sure you do so before you post anything else, everyone here likes to know who we are conversing with and their experience level b4 interacting. Thats how we keep the trolls out. You dig?


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

theplumbinator said:


> Ive never used anything but wax or foam rubber type rings or gaskets. Putty is not approved by code. For any type of use on a WC here so I dont use it. I phenoseal toilet base or urinal to floor or wall also as per code, no putty there either. putty is gonna dry out and leak? No? Im all about old timer tricks but this sounds like hackery to me.


Code? Oh don t tell me your one of those guys?


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## phishfood (Nov 18, 2012)

theplumbinator said:


> Ive never used anything but wax or foam rubber type rings or gaskets.* Putty is not approved by code*. For any type of use on a WC here so I dont use it. I phenoseal toilet base or urinal to floor or wall also as per code, no putty there either. putty is gonna dry out and leak? No? Im all about old timer tricks but this sounds like hackery to me.


What code does NJ use, and where is the code section? 

Just looked for it in FL code (IPC) and couldn't find anything on it.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

I only use rubber foam gaskets on my wall hungs. I get them for about $5. It is just the gasket. I am almost 100% positive that it is a Smith seal.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

We use national standard plumbing code. I looked it didn't say you have to use wax or rubber gasket. It does say bowl has to be caulked to wall or floor. I can give you that code citation if you want it. But in chapter 2 general regulations, section 2.8 it says " plumbing systems shall be installed in a manner conforming to this code and industry installation standards." I interpret that as if the manufacturer of the fixture says its ok to use Putty then the code is ok with it. Also I know there is a part of the code under authority having jurisdiction (inspector) if he feels something is UN safe ( like he is worried putty is a bad idea) he does not have to allow it unless you can provide documentation from the manufacturer that its ok with them. I can give you that code citation if you wish also. Here is what I would worry about using putty. If the bowl leaks from the base wrecks the celing in the living room below, grows mold in the bay it was leaking into soaking the insulation, or rotting out the Floor in the bathroom. Maybe celing falls down wrecks expensive furniture or rugs. And they are pissed dont call you back call another plumber he pulls the toilet and says the guy that set this toilet was a jerk he used putty instead of the approved method you should sue him and his insurance company. Now what ? I have to deal with that? Wax is a better plan to me. Next toilet you buy read the booklet and see what they say to use. I know toilets sometimes come with wax rings if they come from the box stores. I have never gotten a toilet with a container of Sta-Put. Use it if you want I will use what works for me. I have worked with many other plumbers and I know none that use putty on a toilet. This thread is the first I ever even heard of someone using it for that.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Fast fry said:


> Code? Oh don t tell me your one of those guys?


Im no Angel bro. But there are some things I dont want to assume liability for.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

I guess all the water closets set with plumbers putty before I was born is wrong then.

I have pulled 100's of water closets set in putty, not one ever leaked at the seal. I have pulled 100's set with wax, and seen water stains beyond the seal indicating a leak.

Illinois plumbing code, one of the strictest codes I have ever read, specifically states putty is allowed to set fixtures. I have been setting water closets with putty for 30 years. The plumber that taught me used putty for 60 years, never, not a single call back. But I guess for all those years it has been done wrong.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

I just read 5 different water closet manufacture's installation instructions, not a single one said " DO NOT USE PUTTY" Mansfield did say not to use corrugated supply lines or it will void the warranty.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

Ok, I've taken out quite a few toilets that were set with putty too. But I've never set a toilet with putty, & not saying its wrong, just asking a few questions.

1- Seems like you would have to use nearly a 5lb tub of putty to go around a flange, especially castiron, no? How much putty is used on the avg toilet?

2- I would think you would have to make the putty really thick to compress, & seal to bottom of toilet. How thick you make it?

3- Doesn't the putty just push through the extra holes or slots in flange, especially if the hole in floor, below flange, is not cut properly, or open? (Which rarely they are cut properly).

4- When its cold outside, I can hardly dig enough putty out, to roll, & warm with my hands to do a sink strainer, let alone a toilet flange. Heat gun is what I use on wax rings, or I stick them next to heat vent, when I 1st get to job. But don't seem like putty would warm up very fast?

5- You buying this putty in large quantity, & how much you keep on the truck? I mean I've had to set several toilets, unexpectedly, doing service work.

Just asking cuz I agree wax rings aren't the greatest, & I think there should be a better way to set a water closet, but I'm skeptical about putty.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> I just read 5 different water closet manufacture's installation instructions, not a single one said " DO NOT USE PUTTY" Mansfield did say not to use corrugated supply lines or it will void the warranty.


 Thats horrible. You mean those SOB's at Mansfield corp.,would not give me my $65 back. :laughing:


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Don The Plumber said:


> Ok, I've taken out quite a few toilets that were set with putty too. But I've never set a toilet with putty, & not saying its wrong, just asking a few questions.
> 
> 1- Seems like you would have to use nearly a 5lb tub of putty to go around a flange, especially castiron, no? How much putty is used on the avg toilet?
> 
> ...


It does take quite a bit of putty. I can set two water closets most of the time on cast iron flange with one 5 lb tub of Black Swan putty. Haven't been able to find Sta-Put here, which is what I used in Texas, but the Black Swan seems to have more work ability than the Sta-Put does. 

I had a Plumber I used to work with teach me when I was an apprentice to use putty. I didn't use it much to be honest though, until I started reading about it here on the Zone, and after I would pull some water closet that had been set since the 50's with a putty ring still in working order. That is what made me start to consider using putty, if it would last 50-60 years, it can't be bad. 

Now I set all my water closets on a cast iron flange with putty. Still use wax on pvc though.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Don The Plumber said:


> Ok, I've taken out quite a few toilets that were set with putty too. But I've never set a toilet with putty, & not saying its wrong, just asking a few questions.
> 
> 1- Seems like you would have to use nearly a 5lb tub of putty to go around a flange, especially castiron, no? How much putty is used on the avg toilet?
> 
> ...


What's wrong using the rubber gaskets??? Far much better than those hackery wax rings.


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## matkg (Mar 3, 2013)

About two and a half pounds of putty will do a toilet not that hard to warm it up in winter much better than wax rings in my opion


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> What's wrong using the rubber gaskets??? Far much better than those hackery wax rings.


 What kind of rubber gaskets you use? Are they different for cast iron flanges vs pvc? How does it account for different thicknesses?never used a rubber gasket either, but not a bad idea. Think I got a couple in my truck. don't know how I got em though.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Don The Plumber said:


> What kind of rubber gaskets you use? Are they different for cast iron flanges vs pvc? How does it account for different thicknesses?never used a rubber gasket either, but not a bad idea. Think I got a couple in my truck. don't know how I got em though.


Real plumbing supply house have them, WB have 6 different thickness sizes. More pricey, yes, outlasts the wax gaskets.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

SewerRatz said:


> I just read 5 different water closet manufacture's installation instructions, not a single one said " DO NOT USE PUTTY" Mansfield did say not to use corrugated supply lines or it will void the warranty.


Witch one said to use silicone, or elmers glue, or bubble gum? Probably none because who would think to use it for that application.

How many of the manufacturers said to use putty in their installation literature? is really what I want to know.

What does the putty manufacturer say? Do they say use this product in place of a wax ring or gasket? Maybe when Hercules sends me a letter saying they made sta-put putty for that purpose and they stand behind any liability that could arise from using it for sealing toilet base to flange then I will use it. Not until I see it in black and white though. My educated, common sense, logical, opinion against yours. 
Do what you want on your jobs. If it works for you great, doesn't work for me.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Originally Posted by *Olemissplumber*  
_Install a Dutchman and your waxseal will fit. _
What in the heck is a Dutchman? Maybe ive seen one before but never knew what it was called?

A Dutchman is a spacer to fill a void, eg,. when the riser is a inch below the ring.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Plumbus said:


> Originally Posted by Olemissplumber http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/shout-out-sewerratz-25584-post405452/#post405452
> Install a Dutchman and your waxseal will fit.
> What in the heck is a Dutchman? Maybe ive seen one before but never knew what it was called?
> 
> A Dutchman is a spacer to fill a void, eg,. when the riser is a inch below the ring.


Yes I use them but we call them "extension flanges" or "extension flange with sleeve". just never heard anyone call It a "Dutchman" thank u for the info.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

theplumbinator said:


> Witch one said to use silicone, or elmers glue, or bubble gum? Probably none because who would think to use it for that application.
> 
> How many of the manufacturers said to use putty in their installation literature? is really what I want to know.
> 
> ...


Here's your answer, in black and white:
Most people would agree that the world is a better place because of the existence of plumbers putty. Black Swan invented plumbers putty. Thus, the world is a much better place because of the existence of Black Swan. Please remember this when you go out next time to purchase any of your plumbing chemical needs.

A quick history. During World War II the federal government came to Black Swan and described
a product that was needed. They asked if Black Swan could manufacture this product. Harry Lichten, the owner of Black Swan, responded, "Yes!" Of course, Harry had no idea how he would be able to accomplish this. But, a few months later, the first batch of plumbers putty was made.

Black Swan never knew how this new product was being used. But, for a few years, this new proudct was a very big seller. After the end of the war, the government no longer needed this new proudct. But, Harry Lichten knew he had a great product but he did not know what he could use it for.

After doing extensive research, Harry Lichten realized that the world had no good method for setting a toilet bowl. Plumbers were using linseed oil and powder, mixing them together by hand and then using the end result to make a seal between the toilet bowl and the floor. This was a very sloppy operation and the end result was not very good.

Harry Lichten sold this new putty into the plumbing trade to set toilet bowls and it became an immediate success.

Today plumbers putty has many different uses. It is used wherever a watertight seal needs to be made. This includes setting toilet bowls, fixtures, faucets, stainers, basin cocks and sink frames.

Always be careful where you use plumbers putty. Plumbers putty does contain some petroleum oils and it could soften or discolor some surfaces including marble, granite, plastic, etc.

Remember, always ask for Black Swan's Stay Soft Plumbers Putty when you have a need for plumbers putty.

here is the link:http://blackswanmfg.blogspot.com/2010/07/plumbers-putty.html


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

theplumbinator said:


> What does the putty manufacturer say? Do they say use this product in place of a wax ring or gasket? Maybe when Hercules sends me a letter saying they made sta-put putty for that purpose and they stand behind any liability that could arise from using it for sealing toilet base to flange then I will use it. Not until I see it in black and white though. My educated, common sense, logical, opinion against yours.
> Do what you want on your jobs. If it works for you great, doesn't work for me.


What does the wax ring maker say? Do they stand behind any liability? Nobody stands behind any product.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

422 plumber said:


> What does the wax ring maker say? Do they stand behind any liability? Nobody stands behind any product.


Good question. I do however know wax rings are manufactured specifically for one application. Sealing toilet to flange. Not saying you guys are wrong for using putty if thats what your comfortable with. just not what I use. I take back my hackery comments from earlier posts I know you guys aren't hacks.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

If the putty maker says it's made for setting toilets, who am I to argue?


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Foam rings for wall hung. Just be aware that AS and Crane use different ones. It might be an age issue also. The new cranes are beveled a bit. Never had a problem with a foam on a urinal as long as the old ring is cleaned off.


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

Plumbus said:


> Originally Posted by *Olemissplumber*
> _Install a Dutchman and your waxseal will fit. _
> What in the heck is a Dutchman? Maybe ive seen one before but never knew what it was called?
> 
> A Dutchman is a spacer to fill a void, eg,. when the riser is a inch below the ring.


You are right, a Dutchman is used by fitters who make their pipe to short, so a spacer or Dutchman is made out of a frying pan or an end blank to go between two flanges.


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