# 66 to 50 Gallon Electric Water Heater Problem



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

66 to 50 Gallon Electric Water Heater Problem 
This is a very 'involved' situation so I'll describe it the best way I can.


Customer called, having issues with a 10 year old water heater with new elements, new upper/lower thermostats, heater still isn't heating water.

I explain like I would all 10 year heaters and state that a "new" water heater is the best investment. Embeds the warranty of product/guarantee of product reliability because the cost is no different to rebuild or replace.

When you factor the time for a plumber to fetch OEM parts for the heater, not anything retrofit in regards to upper/lower thermostats, replacement elements. 

I learned from my mistakes years ago and the parts that come out are the parts that go in, no exception on water heaters. 


Was very thorough upon arriving, found non related issues that brings me to posting this topic. A defective thermal expansion tank and high water pressure doesn't cause 'no hot water' calls. But I found it, addressed part of that equation and installed a new water heater as their best financial interest in this matter, no matter what the current situation is as we speak.

The efficiency of water heaters dwindle the longer they are in operation, including sediment buildup, new government regs that require heavier insulation.


Onto the problem,

I installed this new water heater, it has:


30 amp breaker - Couldn't figure out the name on this breaker panel.
10-2 wire leading from the panel to the heater.
Structure is 10 years old, old as the water heater, old as the wiring.


5 days prior to my arrival, the homeowner attempted to diy this existing 10 year old heater. If I would of spoke with him before this work commenced, I would of swayed the point of interest to replace before repair, always.

Heater sits on the 2nd floor of this structure, the water heater has been subjected to high water pressure for a period of time that causes metal fatigue. If this heater was in a basement unfinished, I STILL would represent the customer's best interest and tell them to replace, get that warranty as part of the plumber's task at hand. I personally will not guarantee a full rework of an electric water heater from leaking/malfunction/parts because the quality of repair parts, electrical included seem to have went down in the past two decades.

When the customer couldn't get the heater to perform after the repair parts were installed, an electrician was called out to determine if the circuit breaker was bad/defective. Indeed it was, and a new 30amp double breaker was installed mentioning on the ticket that the wires were loose in the lugs connecting to the existing breaker.

The new breaker did not solve any problems.


This is where I the plumber gets involved, not even wanting to work with the old heater because it didn't have OEM parts and it was 10 years old. 

I installed a new water heater, to code. Wired it back like it would be installed, black to black, white to red, bare to ground.

Before I left, it was noticeable that it wasn't heating up in the 30 minutes after it was turned on like it should. It tempered the water but wasn't significant. 

So, I took my simple tester, went back to that water heater, removed the cover on the junction box at top and did a test, confirmed I had 240 volts at the pigtails.

Knowing I'm dealing with a cold tank, and that the upper element fires first until temp setting is satisfied (120degrees) that top thermostat acts as a brain to the lower thermostat, sending juice to the lower element once and only after the top half of the water heater has ready to use hot water. That is a cold tank scenario only, and once it completes its first cycle the lower element is the element that is used for the majority of water heating, the top only for maintenance from thereon.

Took my tester, tested the two wires leading to the upper element, once again I get 240volts. 

At this point with a brand new water heater, I've confirmed that my connections are 100% up top at the junction box and the heater is in the mode to heat that water at the top half until it meets my 120 degree thermostat setting. 

Always, always the high temperature limit switches are tested to make sure they are not popped/tripped upon install to make sure that nothing upon transportation of the heater across the states caused an issue. Same goes with checking the thermostat settings. All plumbers should check this on new installs.


Customer calls me 4 hours later after installation, still no hot water. He took the upper thermostat cover panel off, insulation is warm, wires warm, he can tell that upper thermostat has electricity running to it. Still nothing more than luke warm water. 

This water heater has 4500 watt elements, that's the reason for the 30amp/10-2 minimum requirement. Customer confirmed a 30amp breaker came out, new one went in.

I went through a list of tests to make sure my water lines are not crossed. Negative. 

I personally cannot touch the internals of this new water heater as it is reserved for the authorized rep for the product maker, comes at no cost to the consumer for the first year on parts and labor. After the first year it is parts/tank only till the maturity of 6 years.

I've never installed an electric water heater that didn't work from the go, ever. 

The symptoms of this situation mimic the identical problems from 5 days prior. 

On my level, this customer was due for a new electric water heater but I'm miffed that it's not creating hot water, and definitely they are not happy either after spending quite a bit of money. 

Since it comes from a plumber's perspective that electric water heaters are very simple to install, *2 water lines, 3 wires* I installed this heater like I have the last 600 electric water heaters I've installed.

I don't have any electrical testing instrument that measures the amount of current travelling to the heater, nor do I have anything that tells me the amount at the thermostats. 

I'm comfortable with this "lack of" knowledge because I'm not an electrician, I'm strictly a pipe and fittings plumber and when I get into troubleshooting these water heaters, older ones I'm usually not getting paid. That buck stopped years ago.

Customer is contacting the same electrician that replaced the breaker to see what their thoughts are. 

My question is this:


Does the explanation of the situation above lead any of you experts to finger pointing a particular spot in this system that may be the culprit? I'm not going to play electrician and fix this myself; the authorized rep or the electrician is going to get to the root of the problem and solve it.

This customer put a ton of effort into this situation, and we're trying to find out if something back at the panel is to blame, like a second breaker got damaged when the homeowner hooked up the heater after using retrofit parts (upper/lower tstats, elements) and I do know that the ones used in replacement of the elements were lower wattage, 3500 instead of 4500 watts.

Would appreciate any advice on this matter as I cannot see a brand new electric water heater malfunctioning like this. Connections are 100% tight at the junction box, confirmation of current making it to the upper element.​


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

It's not too often I get stumped on a situation involving plumbing... so I thought I'd share my dilemma.

Most likely I believe it'll go back to the panel as the culprit. 

I don't troubleshoot these situations beyond the install unless I'm getting paid, and I want an electrician, not a plumber making those calls in the matters at hand. 

More from the legality aspect than anything else. From a practical I 'could' but I'm not going to start carrying more elaborate testing equipment regarding electrical components. 

It either works or it don't, call the authorized rep otherwise, that's what they get paid for.


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## CA GC (Dec 31, 2011)

Have the electrician check the current draw with a clamp on meter. If it is on spec then the elements are heating the water as designed.

The only other possibility is that water is flowing out of the tank faster than it can be heated. Have under slab copper piping by any chance? Check for leaks.

You could shut off the valve on the output of the water heater (as long as you have an appropriate expansion tank and a working pressure relief valve...) and see if the tank will come up to temp. Bet it will... Would be a useful data point.


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## track3 (Dec 31, 2011)

Did you crank up the temps on the new heating elements?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

CA GC said:


> Have the electrician check the current draw with a clamp on meter. If it is on spec then the elements are heating the water as designed.
> 
> The only other possibility is that water is flowing out of the tank faster than it can be heated. Have under slab copper piping by any chance? Check for leaks.
> 
> You could shut off the valve on the output of the water heater (as long as you have an appropriate expansion tank and a working pressure relief valve...) and see if the tank will come up to temp. Bet it will... Would be a useful data point.


Water heater wasn't used for almost 4 hours after installation. That should of generated a full tank of ready to use hot water. No under slab issues as we checked the outgoing of this heater, pipe isn't getting hot, meaning the water isn't travelling. I did turn off the valve, proving when the water shut off at all hot sides of faucets that there were no cross connections.




track3 said:


> Did you crank up the temps on the new heating elements?


Only checked them, they were set at 120 degrees, made sure the high temperature limit resets weren't tripped.

Pictures and videos here.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> ...No under slab issues as we checked the outgoing of this heater, pipe isn't getting hot, meaning the water isn't travelling....


Technically speaking, that may not be the case if water is flowing faster than the WH can heat it. It is not uncommon for an electric water heater to not keep up with a slab leak.

HOWEVER....I think the amp draw on the electric side is more suspect. Even at 240 volts, low amperage could still exist. 10ga wire should be plenty heavy for the 30amp rated WH (within a certain distance), but that doesn't mean 30 amps of juice is getting to the breaker to start with.

I'd shut off the water and see if you can get a temperature rise. Also check the meter for movement. The next thing would be to get Sparky checking the power supply from the meter to the WH and all points in between.

This is an odd one Mr. D. :wacko:

Keep us posted.


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## trick1 (Sep 18, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> Technically speaking, that may not be the case if water is flowing faster than the WH can heat it. It is not uncommon for an electric water heater to not keep up with a slab leak.
> 
> HOWEVER....I think the amp draw on the electric side is more suspect. Even at 240 volts, low amperage could still exist. 10ga wire should be plenty heavy for the 30amp rated WH (within a certain distance), but that doesn't mean 30 amps of juice is getting to the breaker to start with.
> 
> ...


Amp draw is where I would start along with a resistance check of the elements.

There's an issue with delivery of power somewhere.

Mr biz, I think you're on the right track.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

D ,, Had a Brad White do the same thing to me 2 years ago . Was SO D**N FRUSTRATED !
Changed upper & lower stats -- nothing . 
The elements were bad ,, they didn't "read" bad ,, but once i changed them ( in total desperation ) everything worked great .


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

For what it's worth, I always tweak the thermostat(s) back and forth before setting them where I'd like them.

Just in case they aren't making contact like they should right out of the box...

I guess it's similar to re-seating a circuit board or wiggling a plug in the receptacle. Whether it ever has made a difference or not I don't know but it's a habit from my electronics hobby.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Keep in mind there can be variance of 15 degrees plus or minus that is acceptable with thermostats. We are not talking about intricate thermostats. I am not hearing the water is warm but if the stats are 15 degrees off it could be 105 degrees. What is the temperature of the water exiting from the heater? 4500 watt elements should draw 17-19 amps and that is why a 30 amp breaker is necessary. 

Did you pull out the top element to see if it was dry fired? I have had home owners turn on a breaker prior to me being finished while trying to help. It sounds like you have a nosey home owner. You must do a resistance check or amp check on the top element. 230 volts does not mean the heater is working properly.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Dip tube might be broken off inside the HWT


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> 66 to 50 Gallon Electric Water Heater Problem
> This is a very 'involved' situation so I'll describe it the best way I can. <snip.>
> 
> In the panel where the breaker is attached any loosenes or burn marks will set up a very high resistance and cause the problem you are describing. Loose screws on the element and thermostats will cause amperage problems also.
> Previous wire nut connections that were not tight and the arching bunt the wires (on installation did you scrape them clean?) From a plumbing standpoint temporarily change the water heater leads in the panel to the dryer circuit. If the W/H now works call sparky back. Could in shipping perhaps the dip tube was broken off -- thereby short cycling the water heater. All incoming cold is going to the top of heater, it will never heat and if it does the water will be cold in a flash.​


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> Dip tube might be broken off inside the HWT


 
The water would still get hot and when running fixtures would run out of hot water quickly.
My understanding is the water is not getting hot.


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## highpoint (Mar 3, 2009)

I've also had bad elements from factory. I've even had someone flip breaker before te tank was filled right up.
I always check ohms on elements. Make sure the wires are disconnected though.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> The water would still get hot and when running fixtures would run out of hot water quickly.
> My understanding is the water is not getting hot.


Never know until you go back and check it yourself 

Home owner always blows evrything out of proportion...

A little hot water at the beginning and no hot water is the samething to
them...

OP did say the top of the tank was getting hot..... so it is working...

just the hot water is not leaving the tank... leads me to believe that it is very possible that the dip tube is broken or melted off when he soldered his connection on hwt...


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

You might have a slab leak on a hot line somewhere. Water is running so fast through the W/H that it doesn't heat up. If all the electrical components are working good (breaker, t-stats, elements, and you definitely have 240 volts going to heater,) than it can only be a leak on a hot line.

Close the in-coming valve on the W/H for a few minutes. Make sure nobody opens any fixtures. Then open the valve and listen if water fills up the W/H. You'll know instantly if there is a leak on a hot line if you hear the water rush in to fill the tank.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Clamp on ampmeter (sp?), check the amp draw.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

mississippiplum said:


> clamp on ampmeter (sp?), check the amp draw.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> Never know until you go back and check it yourself
> 
> Home owner always blows evrything out of proportion...
> 
> ...


 
Sorry I thought he said it was a little tempered but not much. ie small amount of electrical charge to temper the water from its original temperature entering the tank.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> Clamp on ampmeter (sp?), check the amp draw.


 





I'm no electrician, but I think if the amp draw was incorrect, then the breaker would trip. I was told that by an electrician.


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## bizzybeeplumbin (Jul 19, 2011)

Mixing somewhere in the house? cartridge or cross connection somewhere??


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

I have a customer who had her gas cut off and couldn't get it turned back on. They have an electric water heater that has a dryer plug on it and they switch it out with the dryer in the evening for hot water. Absolutely ghettorific. 

Perhaps you could try this to make sure its not the wiring to the panel?

An electrician is still your best bet.


Also, let the unit heat until the t-stats are satisfied, disconnect the hot line and pipe the W/H to a bucket and measure how much water you are getting and it's temperature.


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> I'm no electrician, but I think if the amp draw was incorrect, then the breaker would trip. I was told that by an electrician.


but only if the amp draw was too high, right ?

.....................of course i am not an electrician by any means LOL


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Just because the 'lectrician fixed it, doesn't mean it's fixed.


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

If you're getting 240V to the heater, but the elements aren't heating, I'd bet dinner that there is either a junction box somewhere on the line between the panel and the heater or there is a damaged wire. The wire is making contact but it doesn't have the capacity to deliver enough amps. Loose wire nut in a junction box is my bet. 

Have an electrician pull a new wire to the heater. To test it, he can pull a temporary wire from the panel to the heater & wire it up. If he does that, I'll bet the heater works perfectly.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> I'm no electrician, but I think if the amp draw was incorrect, then the breaker would trip. I was told that by an electrician.


If the amp draw is below 30 amps that breaker wouldn't trip, above 30 and It will trip.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

I'd bet a lack of current also. Kind of like a gas heater I was called out to a few weeks ago. Another company had gone out to a complaint of no hot water. The guy cracked the gas supply and soaped it, saw bubbles and says "you have gas, must be the gas valve". Because he didn't want to deal with it, he replaced the entire heater. She calls me a week later with the same problem. "The last guy checked the gas supply and it's fine" she says. I pull the gas flex completely off and open the valve. A big rush of gas then nothing.  The heater (and the previous one) was fine. No volume (current) of gas and it wouldn't heat but the pilot would burn. A new gas line in the yard and she's back in all the hot water she can handle.





Paul


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

A few years ago I had a call through a warranty company in a new move in house for a potential bad gas valve. Pilot was lit, but the burner would not turn on. 

Well, it wasn't the gas valve, it was locked out at the meter, they never called the gas company to start service and it was locked out when the last people moved. 

There was just enough gas getting through to keep the pilot lit, but not to light the burner. The new owners thought that the electric and gas company was the same provider and only had the electricity service turned on. This was on a Friday, I don't know if they had hot water that weekend or not.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I would just gut the heater and install all new parts...

it is either a grounded top element, a dry fired element....
a defective thermostat.......... its quicker just to install all new parts
then if this dont fix the problem, 
it is certainly in the electrical side of the system



Or go option #3 
to keep the customer happy, and keep you from going around in circles, why not just change out the whole thing and do a warranty replacement??


cut your losses and just change it
there is no shame in defeat, 
as long as the customer has hot water


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Meet the electrician on the job, then you can figure it out together. This way anything that is said to the customer, will be done in front of all parties involved.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

I'm going to go with the hidden j-box scenario as well.

30 amp breakers don't just go points up after only 10 years without a reason.

My guess is the old tank reached the end of its natural life span due to water quality issues and the HO tried to fix it himself -- He did something stupid and arced the element or the t-stat and cooked the wiring in the hidden j box.

Just for shiots and giggles, I'd pull new wiring from the panel to the tank location (or temp it in with my welder cord) and see if the problem goes away.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

U should have 240 volts between both legs and 120 from each leg to ground. I'm gonna go with the fried wiring senerio Also. But like I said test the amp draw with a clamp on ammeter.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

A decent multi meter w/ current clamp would tell you what the problem is.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> U should have 240 volts between both legs and 120 from each leg to ground. I'm gonna go with the fried wiring senerio Also. But like I said test the amp draw with a clamp on ammeter.


 





Original post stated he was getting 240 volts to upper element, so what am I missing? Educate me, how would a fried wire be the problem?


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> Original post stated he was getting 240 volts to upper element, so what am I missing? Educate me, how would a fried wire be the problem?


If you have a wire that's damaged, or a wire nut in a j-box that isn't on correctly, the voltage will be seen at the heater, but the loose connection or damaged wire will not pass enough current to heat.

If everything is correctly wired & working properly, you should see ~18 amps on the wire to the element.

Back when I was an electrician on a submarine, we had a problem with the deep fryer in the galley. Had voltage on the heater, good ohms on the heaters, everything looked OK. When you ran the fryer, it would heat up, but when you put fries in the oil, it would cool down quickly. The problem turned out to be a loose contactor, the points were not making 100% and it wouldn't pass enough current. Cleaned the points, adjusted the contactor, made enough fries & shrimp to make everyone happy.

Tough kind of problem to diagnose.


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## drain surgeon (Jun 17, 2010)

The OP states that he does not test the electric beyond checking voltage. Incoming voltage tells only a small part of the story. As a plumber you should get comfortable enough and have the right equipment to do a thourough test of the componants. A meter with a clamp as well as test leads. Test for amp draw at both elements by turning the temp up or down to make each t stat call for power.Set your gage to amp and put your clamp around one of the leads from the t stat to each element. You should get around 19 amps.Test each element for continuity and for a ground. Turn off the power and remove the wires from each element ,put your meter on ohms and put a probe on each post of the element should get you a ring on your meter.(continuity good) No ring the element is bad. Check for ground by putting one probe on a leg of the element and the other to bare metal of the tank. You should not get a ring if you do the element is grounded and needs to be replaced


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

*Here is the outcome of this situation*

Slab Leak.

Originally Posted by jwelectric 
The ONLY way to check a water heater is with an ammeter. One can be purchased for around $50.

If there is 240 volts present at the element and no current is flowing then the answer is simple, the element is bad.

Once in my life I did the electrical on apartments where there would be a lot of water heaters installed at one time. I got pretty good at replacing elements without draining the tank.


If I could and if there was the ease of calling an electrician whenever there's a malfunctioning electric water heater, I'd do it without second thinking. 

The issue is the money spent for the consumer in point of sale value is the fact that both tasks (repair against replacement) are closely tied together, with the replacement being slightly more. Still, that value is far better when we speak of a 10 year old water heater on the 2nd floor of a wood structured home.

Time and effort of troubleshooting electric components on water heaters isn't going to bed the guarantee that it's the long term thinking cure most times, especially when the condition of the tank is soon to expire.

Originally Posted by jimbo 
I think you did the customer a disservice installing a new WH, when it had NOT been established that anything was wrong with the old one per se. All the blah blah about the age, warranty, etc is fine, but that old unit should have been heating water....new elements, new stats, new circuit breaker.

Can we assume that you are checking for 240 directly across the element, and NOT measuring each leg indvidually to ground? If so, it has to be bad. If you have volts across a load, current has to flow. If no heat is produced, load is open. Check resistance of elements??




The above picture is the condition of the water heater when I arrived. Incorrectly sized elements, no thermostats, wires sticking out of the upper and lower openings. 

When the customer called (wife) I was told, 

"My husband has worked on this heater all week, replaced elements/thermostats, had an electrician out and still cannot get it to work."

^^^^

When I asked the age of the heater, (10 years) I have to put the customer's best interest into my thinking of what I charge them and what offers the best options.

The back and forth conversation led to me stating, "You know, at 10 years old I would never recommend a repair of such an old water heater. Replace it so there is a warranty on the work done."


That led to a sale of a water heater with my willingness to pick up the new one, bring it to the home and install it. Walking up those steps, seeing that water heater tore apart was a surprise at best, and no way in hell will I sit there with retrofit parts trying to piece the humpty dumpty puzzle back together... especially when I charge 3 figures an hour. I'd be stealing from the customer.



Originally Posted by hj 
The first thing to do, ALWAYS, is to find out WHY it is not heating the water, and it appears that you did NOTHING to find that out. With certain types of problems, such as an underfloor slab leak, a new heater will NOT work any better than the old one. I have tried to explain this to other plumbers who have returned NEW heaters because the were "defective and not heating the water". If this is the case, you will NOT have "have a trail of hot water leaving the tank, then getting cold at the faucets near or far", because the water would NEVER stay in the tank long enough to get hot. In fact, when the leak gets bad enough the water will not even get warm. 

As a second point, YOU are allowed to work inside a "new" water heater as long as you know what you are doing.

A third point, I NEVER replace a water heater if it can be repaired and is NOT leaking. You cost your customer a LOT of money and did NOT solve her problem.

4. quote; because the cost is no different to rebuild or replace.

Either you are very expensive for your repairs/rebuild, or very cheap with your installs, because there is NO WAY the two costs should even be close together, especially with a heater in the attic.


I'm not cheap, and I won't allow any customer of mine to spend good money in a bad way, especially an old water heater.


The consumer NEEDS the best outcome for the money spent, always. Repairing old water heaters that have never seen maintenance is thievery on the part of the plumber.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Below is the picture of the installed water heater that was done yesterday.





Between the work by the property owner for 4 days dealing with the electrical aspect of the heater, electrician coming out...


then myself trying to rid the entire "bad" situation by telling them to get rid of the 10 year old heater that needs replacement anyway,


The electrician came back today. Mind you, when I installed this heater, it was noisey the entire time I was at this home, and a kid's birthday party started 2 hours before I finished.



It was indeed a slab leak. First floor. They cannot find it. This home has extreme water pressure that the customer chose not to purchase a replacement PRV but I did send him to the supply house to get one. 


No one knows yet if the leak underground is a split/break/hole in the pipe yet. All they know is there was a leaking sound at the toilet on the first floor that sounded like a leaking tank. 


When I turned the water off to start replacing this water heater, the main water shutoff was 95% closed, and I asked, "Did you turn the water off already?" to which the answer was no, but they said they turned it nearly off because last year a filter on the fridge blew out causing lots of damage. 

I had already confirmed at time of arrival that there was high water pressure. To see that valve turned nearly off is symbolic of people trying to "regulate" their water pressure on their own when it is high.


So we have a toilet I'm told was making a leaking sound,

An electrician saying the breaker was bad and needing replaced,

A 10 year old water heater torn apart when I arrive, with missing and wrong parts installed,

And I find a defective thermal expansion tank along with a pressure reducing valve. 


I cannot look at a leaking toilet with the water off draining from upstairs and call that a slab leak, ever.

And from the way this house is built, we cannot understand "why" they didn't run the waters to this bathroom through the framed walls or joist spaces instead of going into the floor. Unbelievable. 

No one has located this leak. No hot spots in the floor, just a sound of leaking water at a wall. A very bad situation indeed and if it happened once, it'll happen twice.


I didn't start 5 days before, trying to fix something that wasn't broken. I'm going off what I was told, what I saw at the jobsite when I arrived and giving the best resolve. 

I didn't put that leak in the slab, even the property owner can't believe there is a pipe in that slab. He (and I) expected the water service and that's it... and that is not what is leaking. It's tied to the hot side of the water system only.

And why in the hell they thought it was a good idea to put the furnace and the water heater on the second floor is beyond rational thinking, completely. 


So as this leads to this very moment in time,


How come this electrician made this asessment "now" instead of before, when he was there initially and replaced the breaker?

Wouldn't the fact that the heater was trying to produce hot water be identical with a new one, doing the exact same thing be of merit and worthy of further diagnosis?


Not trying to blame the electrician, but why wasn't the same conclusion drawn, and did it take the replacement of the water heater to further identify/look into the matter to find the core issue? 

All 3 of us were not aware there were underground water feeds in this home. It's built in a way where it would be a backwards move to go with any water lines underground on this construction of the home. Water service comes up the same wall that serves the kitchen, the 1/2 bath is less than 4 feet from this water service. Less pipe, less effort to go across the ceiling to drop down and catch the 1/2 bath because there's a full bath directly above, water heater. Full size (3/4") that makes perfect sense to go above, not into a floor that you cannot access.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

I suspected a slab leak from the beginning because if there is 240 volts going to a new W/H (with new t-stats, new elements and elements are not grounded out) then the issue is *not *electrical.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> I suspected a slab leak from the beginning because if there is 240 volts going to a new W/H (with new t-stats, new elements and elements are not grounded out) then the issue is *not *electrical.


 
Yep. I remember when you posted... but I was positive it wasn't that... that's what I get for believing that all slab homes in this subdivision were done the same.

If you saw the layout of this house... you would be wondering wtf the reason was for going underground for just one 1/2 bath when a damn full bath is directly above, water heater. Makes no sense and this property owner is afraid it'll happen twice, high water pressure or not.


Good call though... you deal with this constantly down in fla I'm sure.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Thank goodness for crappy new install plumbers, us service guys would be out of business if not for them.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Yep. I remember when you posted... but I was positive it wasn't that... that's what I get for believing that all slab homes in this subdivision were done the same.
> 
> If you saw the layout of this house... you would be wondering wtf the reason was for going underground for just one 1/2 bath when a damn full bath is directly above, water heater. Makes no sense and this property owner is afraid it'll happen twice, high water pressure or not.
> 
> ...


 




I have had that exact same scenario before. Repl. t-stats, elements, waited, while waiting I filled out my invoice. I went back in the garage to check to see if W/H was making hot water, and it wasn't. I had blinders on like you did thinking the issue was electrical. When I shut off the ball valve at W/H, and then turned it back on, I heard the water rush in to fill the tank; that's how I started to zero in on a slab leak. 

I had even called an electrician on the phone and was asking him about not enough amps going to W/H. His answer was if the amp draw was incorrect, the breaker would be tripping off.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Good thread! Reading it will keep this scenario in my subconscious should I ever come across it. I mostly see gas water heaters but an electric with a slab leak and nosign of water would be a challenge.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*you did not say that they were on a slab*

not enough need to know information:no:

I was not thinking about that either
we get that quite often and install a new heater
for the customer then find out it has a slab leak




I usually find this out by just turning off the water to the heater and waiting 5 minutes to see if the hot lines stilll have the original amount of pressure in them ...

I went round and round on one a while back that was
on a built up floor in a garage , on a well ... that they
drove a nail through the hot pipe...no way to see , could not hear
and they had someone else out there before me..... 
I finally thought of just turning off the hot water and waiting
a while 
 


Dunbar this must mean that we are getting old...:laughing:


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Copper pipe and a slab leak large enough that it would not allow the water heater to heat up should have created noise(the echo should have been every where vibrating the copper pipe) that should have been caught. When the old heater was turned off the noise should have stopped and noticed.So does this customer know a water heater was changed out that was otherwise ok other than being 10 years old?

I understand mistakes happen and we are suppose to be the pros at diagnosing. To me this is not a good mistake and I am very surprised.


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## CTs2p2 (Dec 6, 2011)

He did say that the lay out made no sense for slab piping.. Which makes me think the repipe wouldn't be too bad..?

But my question would be when you filled the new heater and then went down to open a faucet, you didn't wonder why you got no air first?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Copper pipe and a slab leak large enough that it would not allow the water heater to heat up should have created noise(the echo should have been every where vibrating the copper pipe) that should have been caught.


 




:no:.............not when the leak is some distance away, buried under a few feet of compacted earth and a slab of concrete.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Bayside500 said:


> but only if the amp draw was too high, right ?
> 
> .....................of course i am not an electrician by any means LOL


 





Yes, I believe you're correct. So, if 5500 watt heating elements were energized and the breaker was only 20 amps, then it would trip.


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## lpayne1234 (Sep 20, 2008)

Why not cut all stops/valves off in house and look a water meter, that would be a start.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Everyone is mentioning what you would do "after" you came to the spot I did once the new water heater was installed.


Remember, the property owner tearing his water heater apart, me not wanting to touch that heater with everything removed and disconnected is the smart thinking of a plumber to NOT fall into that trap, trying to save the dying horse on the second floor.

A heater with that age, with known high water pressure against it, you do NOT repair those units. 

I had this customer sold on replacing the PRV but he came back empty handed as a surprise to me as I had every intention of replacing the defective PRV. 


Still, even after all of this, 

This property owner is not addressing the high water pressure that has caused not one, but 3 incidents in his home that is costing them money. 

And if I video taped the location of this closet where the water line comes in, the 36" across to the 1/2 bath, knowing there is plumbing all above and a kitchen opposite the wall of the incoming water line,

I can safely say that every single one of you would of ended up in my same shoes... because given the circumstances, age of the water heater, non-educated hands on the unit... no smart plumber like myself is going to inherit that abortion up there and save it from ultimate ending.

Why on earth this new construction plumber decided to go underground was a bad decision... 

the 2nd bad decision is this customer not installing that pressure reducing valve that I instantly diagnosed from the word go. 

I cannot look at a toilet that sounds like it is leaking when the water is turned off and instantly think there's an underground leak. The house layout, design, the rest of the slab homes do not follow this design.


Why run underground waters when they are directly above in the joists, and full size (3/4" with the ability to tee off and drop down.


*A decision was made to replace over the phone, cannot control that I arrive, heater ripped apart, main shut off 95% turned off and now I'm supposed to have x-ray vision and think the electrician AND homeowner are lying?* 


I'm good, just not that good. That TXT going bad in less than 12 months should of been the true warning sign the water pressure is too high, and now CPVC is broke under the slab in that home.

IF they would address that water pressure from the go, this wouldn't all be happening most likely. 


No "sounds" were audible to indicate an underground leak, same with no hot floors where this leak is.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> :no:.............not when the leak is some distance away, buried under a few feet of compacted earth and a slab of concrete.


 
Tommy copper is a conductor and you can hear it move through the pipe. (Vibration) I am in Floirida and have dealt with the pin hole leak epidemic in the 90's until early 2000. All you must do is listen and you can hear the sound / vibration through the copper. Stick your head inside of a cabinet and you will hear it. I will agree you cannot tell where the leak is however it can be heard.Which then tells you to look at the meter, put a gauge on system ,check main valve,check water service,isolate to inside water,isolate between hot and cold water.This may take 15 minutes.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Everyone is mentioning what you would do "after" you came to the spot I did once the new water heater was installed.
> 
> 
> Remember, the property owner tearing his water heater apart, me not wanting to touch that heater with everything removed and disconnected is the smart thinking of a plumber to NOT fall into that trap, trying to save the dying horse on the second floor.
> ...


We took your words at face value.Hopefully you have learned to check everything before ripping out. I have at times joined the hot and cold water out of the heater to make sure it was a water heater leak verse a slab leak especially when I know the shutoff is not working.

Here in Florida slab leaks are common. Frequently the water lines are run under the heater or the manifolds are behind the heater. With every water heater that is leaking slowly and it is not obvious it is coming from the tank you must check for a slab leak. Understanding the shutoff valve was only shutting off 95% ,the noise should have been louder. Sorry can't blame the electrician or the home owner. You are the professional. We will agree to disagree with this one.


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

here is what I would do. 
1. Install a shutoff valve on the outlet side of the water heater.
2. Connect a garden hose to the drain.
3. Get an ammeter. Easy to use, tells you if the water heater is on or off.
4. Wait a while. 50 gallons should heat in less than an hour.
5. After said wait period, open the drain and measure the temperature of the water on the garden hose. I have one of those probe type dial thermometers. It doesn't take to long to get a reading.
6. IF the tank, with outlet shutoff, is reading fine, then problem is after the tank.

I can think of 2 recent problems I had with water heaters, one with a recently installed gas by one of my companies other techs, and a callout for a tankless problem.

The gas one was simple. There were two "extra" pipes in the wall above the heater. Turns out they had a solar panel on the roof that was supposed to be disconnected that wasn't. Cold water was basically running into the panels, then right back into the hot side. Got on roof, cut off pipes and capped, problem solved.

The second one was for a tankless heater. Customer had t-stat at 140. And it got 140 in the kitchen, but only 110 or so in two showers. Since I had just replaced a shower valve a day or two ago with a Moen Posi-temp, I remembered the little cam you set for anti-scald. Sure enough, both showers were set too low. Removed handles, set the cams for full hot, and advised customer about setting the heater back to 120 or so as not to cause burns.

Hope this helps.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Richard Hilliard said:


> We took your words at face value.Hopefully you have learned to check everything before ripping out. I have at times joined the hot and cold water out of the heater to make sure it was a water heater leak verse a slab leak especially when I know the shutoff is not working.
> 
> Here in Florida slab leaks are common. Frequently the water lines are run under the heater or the manifolds are behind the heater. With every water heater that is leaking slowly and it is not obvious it is coming from the tank you must check for a slab leak. Understanding the shutoff valve was only shutting off 95% ,the noise should have been louder. Sorry can't blame the electrician or the home owner. You are the professional. We will agree to disagree with this one.


 House full of kids very loud the entire time, water heater tore apart, underground water lines where they shouldn't be in a house designed where it wasn't needed. 

You wouldn't of heard it leaking, anyone for that matter in the same circumstance, and you would of taken the electrician's word for the resolve. From there,

If you're going to repair a 10 year heater and play connect the dots with the wiring, that's the difference between you and I.

I'm looking at the best interest in value to the customer, you're looking at a repair AND a future water heater replacement.

What they've got in that upstairs is something that was coming from the go... and a customer telling me he thinks he has a leaking toilet doesn't mean I get the jackhammer out looking for a slab leak.

In your part of the nation... it's very common. Here, and even in this subdivision, this all falls back on the stupidity of a new construction plumber put shi.t product in the floor that no one wins. 

Even my supply house was out of 3/4" CPVC, didn't have 3/4" 45s. That's why that T&P relief line is done in copper.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

If you can't hear anything, just clock the meter.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

MikeS said:


> here is what I would do.
> *1. Install a shutoff valve on the outlet side of the water heater.*


 

That is bad advice. You do not install a shut off on the hot side, you're creating a pressure cooker scenario that can lead to a worst case scenario if the T&P fails to open. 

The very next service call at 9pm in the same subdivision had this exact situation. Told the customer (since it had not only a replacement gas valve but T&P on top the heater) that no matter what, get rid of that hot side valve when the heater is replaced.

The non-educated property owner in the matter could have a leak, start shutting off valves and close off both valves leading in and out of the heater.

If that T&P is corroded shut, heater does a maintenance cycle or has demand to start a cycle... 

hot water, closed vessel. Bad scenario. That thermal expansion has no where to grow to at that point.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

I will put shutoffs on the hot side, especially in commercial settings. Keeps the water on to the building without crossover leak through while a water heater is being changed out. If you have two units in parallel, you'd do it, wouldn't you?

Not a big deal.


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> That is bad advice. You do not install a shut off on the hot side, you're creating a pressure cooker scenario that can lead to a worst case scenario if the T&P fails to open.
> 
> The very next service call at 9pm in the same subdivision had this exact situation. Told the customer (since it had not only a replacement gas valve but T&P on top the heater) that no matter what, get rid of that hot side valve when the heater is replaced.
> 
> ...


 thats incorrect. its a closed vessel all the time. Until someone opens a hot valve up...?????
Besides, you have a no hot water situation. And a brand new tank, a brand new t&p.
Go ahead, do your thing.
Fact is, a hot water heater is a simple thing, it stores water at a certain temperature. 
When do you start digging?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

ChrisConnor said:


> If you can't hear anything, just clock the meter.


 

The call that came into my office:


"My husband has been working on our electric water heater since tuesday, he can't get it to work, we even called an electrician to see what the problem is and he came out to fix it. He put a new circuit breaker in and it still doesn't work. How much do you charge to fix electric water heaters?"


Dunbar Plumbing, "How old is this water heater." 


"10 years, it is as old as the house." 


And from there I convince they need to replace that heater for their respective value.

Then when I arrive, I see the heater tore apart, water pressure is high, main shutoff is 95% turned off and the husband is telling me "the toilet sounds like it has been leaking for the past 4 days." 

I peer into that toilet before I start, 10 year old fill valve and what looked like a gray 210 flush valve seal. That tells me that nothing was rebuilt in that toilet and that's what is leaking, most likely.

That was after I turned the water OFF, and that noise was heard when we both went into that half bath. I had already had the property owners open the valves above, everything is draining down into the lower level so I don't have to fight water at the top during the replacement of the water heater.


You're making a statement that doesn't fit into the mold of what happened, and for me to 'jot off' another direction like that isn't customary. 

I don't put faith in 10 year old water heaters, especially ones that homeowners have tore apart. I cannot. Give me something to work with initially and I can work off of that. That's how the electrician picked it up instantly AFTER the heater was replaced.

If I was the new plumber coming in after the heater was replaced... I would of found this problem as well.... but never think there's water lines going underground maybe 40" to a half bath, totally idiotic to the design in this home. 


If I get back to this home to do work, I'll video it and this will clear the air of how this lays out and why all of us as plumbers would not believe there was underground water lines, and the reasons for it.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

ChrisConnor said:


> I will put shutoffs on the hot side, especially in commercial settings. Keeps the water on to the building without crossover leak through while a water heater is being changed out. If you have two units in parallel, you'd do it, wouldn't you?
> 
> Not a big deal.


 
Commercial is less of a chance for handy homeowner to mess with the equation of danger.


But still, you won't ever see me do it, even on commercial. Cold water inlet stops the loop completely, stops the flow. 

An atmospheric vaccum breaker better be a part of that equation as well.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

MikeS said:


> thats incorrect. its a closed vessel all the time. Until someone opens a hot valve up...?????
> Besides, you have a no hot water situation. And a brand new tank, a brand new t&p.
> Go ahead, do your thing.
> Fact is, a *hot water heater* is a simple thing, it stores water at a certain temperature.
> When do you start digging?


 
Since you believe everything is "new" and "working"


Go buy a water heater,

Valve hot and cold off

Plug the T&P 

Go set the temperature at a "certain" temperature and hook a gauge to the boiler drain and call me 8 hours later, setting the pressure at 60pounds when you start.



Then tell me why you wrote the above without thinking first.


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> The call that came into my office:
> 
> 
> "My husband has been working on our electric water heater since tuesday, he can't get it to work, we even called an electrician to see what the problem is and he came out to fix it. He put a new circuit breaker in and it still doesn't work. How much do you charge to fix electric water heaters?"
> ...


dude, I'm just saying how I would have ruled out the tank you just installed. sometimes we get swept up in all the customer noise, we lose common sense. Water is in a tank. Something heats it up. Customer opens valve, hot water comes out. Rule your stuff out. I'm only trying to give some diagnostic help here, not saying you did anything wrong or right. Just how I would've went at it, if it was me. I carry that little thermometer just for measuring the tank temps. Its common sense if the tank has water at 140 degrees, something else is wrong. sometimes, we let customers mess with our heads. All I'm trying to say is, its not that complicated if you rule out the tank.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Dunbar, it is a closed system if the water isn't running, hot valve or not.


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Since you believe everything is "new" and "working"
> 
> 
> Go buy a water heater,
> ...


 I have no idea what you are saying here. T&P is set to relieve at 150 psi or 210 degrees. So, you are asking me to plug the outlet for the t&p? And wait and see what happens? First off, isn't it everyones responsibility to make sure the line from the t&p is clear when changing out a water heater? I pop the valve every time. Second, if you have more than 150 psi, you'll have more than hot water problems. I suspect pretty much every gasket in every fixture will blow. Like I said, I'm just trying to help yopu out, why you are getting so defensive, I don't get. Sometimes we screw up and let the customer take control. Think it thru, common sense, stand your ground.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

MikeS said:


> dude, I'm just saying how I would have ruled out the tank you just installed. sometimes we get swept up in all the customer noise, we lose common sense. Water is in a tank. Something heats it up. Customer opens valve, hot water comes out. Rule your stuff out. I'm only trying to give some diagnostic help here, not saying you did anything wrong or right. Just how I would've went at it, if it was me. I carry that little thermometer just for measuring the tank temps. Its common sense if the tank has water at 140 degrees, something else is wrong. sometimes, we let customers mess with our heads. All I'm trying to say is, its not that complicated if you rule out the tank.


Of course, after the fact. 


When I tested 15 minutes after installation, water was getting warm where I tested.

I have absolutely no reason to believe there is absolutely any problems at this point, enjoy the hot tank of water by midnight.


Everything went carbon copy till I got the call that "after 4 hours, not nearly enough hot water." Maybe I should of wrote this at the beginning of this thread, so people know that everything transpired after the realization of the core problem.





ChrisConnor said:


> Dunbar, it is a closed system if the water isn't running, hot valve or not.


 
PRV is in a failed situation for this one situation.


That means it is NOT closed. 


When the PRV is working, it becomes closed with a TXT protecting the closed system from danger and overpressure.





MikeS said:


> I have no idea what you are saying here. T&P is set to relieve at 150 psi or 210 degrees. So, you are asking me to plug the outlet for the t&p? And wait and see what happens? First off, isn't it everyones responsibility to make sure the line from the t&p is clear when changing out a water heater? I pop the valve every time. Second, if you have more than 150 psi, you'll have more than hot water problems. I suspect pretty much every gasket in every fixture will blow. Like I said, I'm just trying to help yopu out, why you are getting so defensive, I don't get. Sometimes we screw up and let the customer take control. Think it thru, common sense, stand your ground.


 
Why do you think everything comes out of a box and everything is tested on a wood table?


I'm putting out there 25+ years of plumbing knowledge about worse case scenarios of the how and why I operate, perform plumbing tasks.


If you're testing T&P's yearly, that means those are leaking either right away or soon thereafter. A T&P is a seat you cannot clean/remove/take apart to ensure that it will not leak or operate properly. That's just the design. They make it intentionally that way to protect all involved so no one can take the blame after a cleaning of the device.

Operating those always lead to a leak... made 1000's over the years by that design alone.

How do I know this?


Because T&Ps are devices that once you touch it, you own it. You can 'test' one initially at install but you're taking a huge chance afterwards.

Yes, it indicates to "exercise the relief valve annually" in the warranty of these units and no one does it.


That is what leads to my statements, stating the obvious, knowing that not all T&Ps open when designed to.


You should know enough about T&Ps that most if not all of them will start dripping long before 150psi. If they are 'not' leaking, they are clogged, and no one knows it.

And then you have 2 valves directly above the heater, property owner has a leak and in traditional and consistent fashion,

shuts the valves off until the water stops... and they'll turn off everything because they either don't understand or they are yelling at someone to see if it is still leaking until it stops.


Do you really put faith in a $11 device that has a history of not working all the time?


You have to think outside the code in plumbing, you have to think worst case scenario.

I've seen it. I've arrived at a home more than once where 2 valves are shut off, going in and out of the heater, gas or electric it does not matter.

The heater is cycling, producing hot water at some point and it's not allowing to expand due to a clogged/inoperable T&P.


The kind of situation that someone unknowingly created a pressure cooker scenario and the T&P simply didn't work.

Then they open the valves, go to a laundry tub and open the faucet that feels and sounds like a jet engine roaring out. 


This happens often... and when you have numerous places in your potable water system to have the operation of toilets, faucets, showers, numerous water fed appliances that include into the scenario for someone to open up and release, visually see that increased pressure....

sure beats the time bomb in the basement with no place to expand.


How would you like to be the one that enters the basement, seeing that water heater and its contents under pressure because someone started throwing valves off and the T&P obviously isn't leaking. 

It's scary... can't undo the danger safely until someone goes over and shuts the power/gas off, open the valves the same time the faucet is open nearby and witness the power of high pressured water flow.


I cannot explain it any better short of you doing the test I gave you, and you stop thinking that everything in plumbing *works without error.*

I perform by the duties I've been taught from... some that are extremely dangerous when the right situation finds itself in plumbing.


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Of course, after the fact.
> 
> 
> When I tested 15 minutes after installation, water was getting warm where I tested.
> ...


ok, you are defensive, and still no clue why. Again, I say, and I am sure many others will, that a hot water heater tank is a very simple device. It stores water in a tank, it heats it up to a certain temperature, and it dispenses it as necessary, when a hot water valve is opened in the house. IF the tank has hot water at the required temp., then the problem is elsewhere. This is common sense. Like I said in my eariler posts, I had a problem with a gas heater. It worked for a day or two, but then got cold. Turned out they had solar panels that were still connected, but inoperable (no glass ). Basically cold feeding hot. Which is why I suggested isolating the tank. If you can verify the tank is working, and measure the temp, then you can rule out the tank. This is common sense. Where you go from there requires more info. But you haven't even answered the fundamental question, and that is, is your new hot water heater getting hot?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

MikeS said:


> ok, you are defensive, and still no clue why. Again, I say, and I am sure many others will, that a hot water heater tank is a very simple device. It stores water in a tank, it heats it up to a certain temperature, and it dispenses it as necessary, when a hot water valve is opened in the house. IF the tank has hot water at the required temp., then the problem is elsewhere. This is common sense. Like I said in my eariler posts, I had a problem with a gas heater. It worked for a day or two, but then got cold. Turned out they had solar panels that were still connected, but inoperable (no glass ). Basically cold feeding hot. Which is why I suggested isolating the tank. If you can verify the tank is working, and measure the temp, then you can rule out the tank. This is common sense. Where you go from there requires more info. But you haven't even answered the fundamental question, and that is, is your new hot water heater getting hot?


 
Not defensive. I've been trying to get the state of KY to stop allowing new construction plumbers the permission to install dual valves above water heaters. That puts too much reliance on a T&P valve that is prone to not work consistently. I say that solely from real time experience with the situation, always.


If you shut the water heater cold water inlet valve off, instantly... this water heater creates a tank of hot water.


But to have every single step of this job go the way it did, new water heater heating water before I left... 

how could anyone know there was a leak, given the same scenario. 


Should I tell everyone that I replace a water heater for at this point that everyone must leave, everything turned off so I can hear to make sure the water is off?

That's not going to happen. It'll never happen. I chose to share this situation because it caught me completely off guard, and I'm sharp as a tack in this trade for diagnosing plumbing problems.


It's like the unavoidable car wreck at an intersection, people can't put together "how" something like that can possibly happen... until people get together, extract the information piece by piece and figure out what caused it... and 9 times out of 10, the situation hides itself perfectly. 

I would of rather not been a participant to the situation but nothing gave me a chance to even troubleshoot that possibility. 

I cannot take a leaking toilet sound as an automatic slab leak, especially when you see this house with the plumbing layout... 

it would fool anyone.


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

so, the answer was a slab leak or some other leak on the hot side? Like I said, isolating the tank would have helped you diagnosis this. It would have had to have been a pretty major leak, did you find it? Good luck.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

hroark2112 said:


> If you have a wire that's damaged, or a wire nut in a j-box that isn't on correctly, the voltage will be seen at the heater, but the loose connection or damaged wire will not pass enough current to heat.
> 
> If everything is correctly wired & working properly, you should see ~18 amps on the wire to the element.
> 
> ...


This is where checking both voltage and amperage under load comes into play...

If under load verified by the amperage reading if there was a bad high resistance connection you would see the voltage drop...

Really there isn't much need for plumber to fear or, be baffled by electricity... Just don't complete the circuit through your body.... :laughing:

Think of amperage being gallons per minute and instead of having a flow meter you have an amp meter, and voltage is pressure so instead of a gauge you have a volt meter....

An ohm meter is your pressure test... :laughing:

Now go figure it out... the troubleshooting logic is very similar...

valve = switch
pipe = wire
restriction in pipe = bad connection

Just think about it we know sparky isn't a rocket scientist by any means.... :whistling2:


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

Redwood said:


> This is where checking both voltage and amperage under load comes into play...
> 
> If under load verified by the amperage reading if there was a bad high resistance connection you would see the voltage drop...
> 
> ...


 well, on an electric water heater, the thermostat, upper or lower, determines wheter or not that particular element gets any voltage. Its basically an on/off switch. Tank too cold, turn it on. Tank too hot, turn it off. Amp draw means nothing, really, only to determine if the elements are pulling current (the load) and a continuity check with no power will tell you that. Like I said OVER AND OVER, this is so simple. Hot water in the tank? Yes/No? If yes, problem elsewhere, if no, problem in tank.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Really there is nothing that you wouldn't have known if you completely troubleshot the water heater that wasn't working...

Seeing the proper voltage going to the element and the correct amperage draw for the element wattage tells you the element is working and producing hot water. There is no way around it!

You then need to go into why there isn't hot water there for use. The most obvious thing would be that water is being drawn faster than it can be produced so check the meter or, watch for a running water pump...

Even with a bad dip tube the entire tank will get hot and the t-stats satisfied. It's just you will get a mixing of water at the top of the tank causing the water to run cooler after a brief draw...

Time to bone up on the electric water heater troubleshooting! :yes:
And start using an amp meter as well....


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

MikeS said:


> so, the answer was a slab leak or some other leak on the hot side? Like I said, isolating the tank would have helped you diagnosis this. It would have had to have been a pretty major leak, did you find it? Good luck.


 
Yes, we "assume" it is a slab leak but I wasn't called today for results of "where" this leak actually is... we just assume because it's in the wall behind the toilet. Shouldn't be a hot water line there behind that toilet either... that's why we "assume" it's an underground line since there's no visible loss of hot water in the home.


As I'll say it again... 

I found all this out "after" the heater was installed, did another call and already home.


Too late to play detective after the fact (for me) because the customer called the electrician first to come out, not me. 

I told him if there was a problem with that heater I installed, the authorized rep will come out at no cost, resolve the issue.

This guy has the situation where all 3 of us missed the obvious... but I have to have a reason to be looking for a hot underground water leak... nothing I was presented with give me any reason other than follow my nose, get rid of the catastrophe upstairs and work the resolution from there.

I can't discount that toilet leak sound, but I did a quick visual not seeing new parts... and I wasn't about to say there's a problem in a drain down scenario.

This guy should not leave those water lines under the floor, same as the pressure because that might of been a small leak that went big.


Tighten that drum up, something else will go bust in the night.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Really there is nothing that you wouldn't have known if you completely troubleshot the water heater that wasn't working...
> 
> Seeing the proper voltage going to the element and the correct amperage draw for the element wattage tells you the element is working and producing hot water. There is no way around it!
> 
> ...


 
Decision was made in a 5 minute call to replace that 10 year old water heater, before I arrived. 

No troubleshooting was asked of me. I told them that the work done on that water heater keeps me from being able to do anything worthy.

And when I arrived,










I really only have this coming out,

and the word that the electrician switched out the breaker, all is good on his end.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

This "go ahead" on the phone with replacing water heaters is done 100% of the time, instead of driving out and playing inspector clousseau because 100% of the time it is not necessary.


I hope I go back to this job... I want to help out, get the full disclosure on this.


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Yes, we "assume" it is a slab leak but I wasn't called today for results of "where" this leak actually is... we just assume because it's in the wall behind the toilet. Shouldn't be a hot water line there behind that toilet either... that's why we "assume" it's an underground line since there's no visible loss of hot water in the home.
> 
> 
> As I'll say it again...
> ...


ok, but, to cover your ass, in all your posts, I never saw anything anywhere where you actually measured the water temp in the tank, which was like step 3 in what I said I would have done. Knowing this, hot or cold, eliminates or suspects the tank.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

MikeS said:


> well, on an electric water heater, the thermostat, upper or lower, determines wheter or not that particular element gets any voltage. Its basically an on/off switch. Tank too cold, turn it on. Tank too hot, turn it off. Amp draw means nothing, really, only to determine if the elements are pulling current (the load) and a continuity check with no power will tell you that. Like I said OVER AND OVER, this is so simple. Hot water in the tank? Yes/No? If yes, problem elsewhere, if no, problem in tank.


Not exactly! The Amp meter tells you that there is indeed the correct amount of current going through the element. 

voltage X current = watts therefore 4500 watts / 240 volts = 18.75 amps.

If you have 240 volts supplied to the element and it is drawing 18.75 amps it is heating, there is no need to have sparky recheck his circuit breaker or look for loose connections. It's all there! Why isn't hot water being produced? Well it is being produced, where is it going? 4 hours later the top element is still working away even though it is working correctly? You tell me!

Sounds like a slab leak from the git go...


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Are you allowed to tie the pan drain and T&P together there?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

MikeS said:


> ok, but, to cover your ass, in all your posts, I never saw anything anywhere where you actually measured the water temp in the tank, which was like step 3 in what I said I would have done. Knowing this, hot or cold, eliminates or suspects the tank.


 

I arrived to a home with no hot water for 5 days.

No reason to test it.

When I replace a water heater, by the time I flip the breaker on, turn the thermostat up on a gas water heater to fire and create a cycle of ready to use hot water,

I will normally piss away about anywhere from 10-20 minutes between getting everything back on the truck, writing the bill, walking back into the house and running the hot water to see if there is a variance between cold, and hot. 

Hot doesn't exist because the water heater cannot produce that fast. 


Remember in my earlier posts; there was a birthday party going on with kids and parents going in and out of the bathrooms, washing hands, using water. It wasn't until I produced the bill that I made that statement and sure enough, the property owner stated that he knew that they was using that hot water even though it wasn't hot yet.


So when I tested... it was warm. It was acting like it should, hand feel test, same as I do to all of them. And I was counting the fact that the kids were drawing off it as well, not giving it a chance to heat up in such a short time.


The more I write about this, the more I realize that this scenario is so crazy, so concealing of a slab leak that only a win at a craps table would of identified the situation...

because both the electrician and the plumber did their tasks, got the accurate results and left.

If either one of us stuck around after the work was done, both of us would of found the problem by trial and error, looking for another resolve.


But, keep in mind... electrician has been there twice. I was there once. Do you think the electrician should of heard water flowing at the heater when he tested?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

ChrisConnor said:


> Are you allowed to tie the pan drain and T&P together there?


 
I thought no all these years. But it's been years since I've plumbed a house from top to bottom. 

When we did it, "T&P shall be ran separate of pan drain." We found this out because guys were running the T&P into the pan, calling it good.

I'm positive the way that is plumbed in, it was inspected that way.


Even though that's on a 2nd floor, it has rolled goods for a floor, linoleum. That allows no direct connection needed for that pan, or even require a pan up there. The plumber however did right by installing the pan so he could direct any water flow into the drain via 1" PVC pipe.

Since you can only get so much in a 3" opening of a trap, it looks like the HVAC guy came first, then made arrangements for the plumber to pipe that T&P in a piping arrangement that serves more than one fixture. 

You'll never see a requirement for multiple traps, nor will you see an inspector forcing a T&P being run separately out to grade on new construction. It just doesn't happen. 

But I would say without a doubt, this piping arrangement was approved the way you see it, including that expansion tank sideways. I see it all the time without support.


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I arrived to a home with no hot water for 5 days.
> 
> No reason to test it.
> 
> ...


ok, so they had flow at hot water side of fixtures. Is water hot at faucets, not hot at showers? This could be anti-scald setting on shower, like I mentioned. You really need to verify the temp at the tank. Hook up a hose, and drain it with a thermometer. If its hot, problem is elsewhere. If its not, its the tank. Its just that simple. 
Are there solar panels? Something failed there? Can you bypass them?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

MikeS said:


> ok, but, to cover your ass, in all your posts, I never saw anything anywhere where you actually measured the water temp in the tank, which was like step 3 in what I said I would have done. Knowing this, hot or cold, eliminates or suspects the tank.


 

You're asking me to stick around over an hour to test the water temperature. That will not happen.


How could I have tested the water temperature on a heater completely tore apart? I'm not going to put those thermostats back in for a test.

I still strike out repair with replacement given the age of the heater... clean slate, best investment for the customer.


In the end, they got their monies worth on my install because I replaced a water heater that was compromised and tore apart, and replaced a thermal expansion tank. 

The cost warrants the task... that's what I was contracted to do as a design to solve the 'no hot water' problem.

Given the scenario, kinda hard to do when the property owner ripped the heater apart to test, electrician waving the green flag that all is good... I have to pin back error at the customer for the heater not working in regards to the elements and thermostats, could of been crossed wires for all I know.


On a undisturbed water heater that no one has touched...


I still would of talked them into a sale on this new heater. I can't be magical from my office chair and know the field situation. Just going off what I was told.

First time I had it happen and a slab leak isn't what this subdivision is known for. I got the heater that came out, I'll find out who the plumber was.


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> You're asking me to stick around over an hour to test the water temperature. That will not happen.
> 
> 
> How could I have tested the water temperature on a heater completely tore apart? I'm not going to put those thermostats back in for a test.
> ...


obviously, you went back on your install. When you went back, you could have whipped out your thermometer, measured 130 degrees at the tank, explained how the tank has a full 50 gallons of 130 degrees of water, and the problem is elsewhere. Or, you could have whipped out your thermometer, read 110 degrees, and realizied the tank was the problem. It is that simple. I do this all the time.
edit:
I don't get why this concept of measuring the water temp is so hard to comprehend. You already measured it at the spiggots, using the "hand test", why not measure it at the tank using a thermometer? I'm really gettiing frustrated with your reluctance to test the obvious.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

MikeS said:


> ok, so they had flow at hot water side of fixtures. Is water hot at faucets, not hot at showers? This could be anti-scald setting on shower, like I mentioned. You really need to verify the temp at the tank. Hook up a hose, and drain it with a thermometer. If its hot, problem is elsewhere. If its not, its the tank. Its just that simple.
> Are there solar panels? Something failed there? Can you bypass them?


 
With 80-100psi of pressure, you couldn't even see a flow reduction. Otherwise he would of mentioned it. That's a very crucial point of info you just mentioned.

When he said "no hot water" he meant it never got truly hot. It was only lukewarm. 

Why are you asking me to take a damn temperature test on a tank that hasn't had hot water in 5 days?!?!!

That's the reason I'm called to the job, with new heater in tow.

Even if I test after install, I'm staying long enough to do a true full cycle test.



I operate differently than other plumbers. If I hear anything above 6 years on a tank, I'm pushing replacement, not repair. If someone wants a repair on an electric water heater I'm tossing it and I'm telling you why:

The averages of people getting good solid results associated with the charge that I implement is a waste of money, even if they get substantial time out of the repair.

Pulling elements out on a 6 year tank can lead to a leak... I've had them.

Thermostats not working right, wrong ones, the supply house saying "Here this is all we got for your model" waiting for parts... that's not my damn game.

I want in and out, best deal for the customer. That's how everything is built at this point in the game and I cannot help that.

No solar panels. Who said anything about solar panels? 


The temperature gauge works well if you're into repairing electric water heaters that haven't been destroyed by the customer first... I'll agree with you on that one. 

I'd rather replace that tank and give those people a new warranty, the guarantee that straight from the manufacture that nobody has touched that but the maker of the product, and 9 times out of 10 it is working correctly when installed. It's how I roll.

Heaters are constantly not getting 10 years of life in my area. I didn't steer this customer wrong on the necessity of replacement. It just didn't fit the cure for the no hot water. Can only work off of what I had to deal with.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

MikeS said:


> here is what I would do.
> 1. Install a shutoff valve on the outlet side of the water heater.
> 2. Connect a garden hose to the drain.
> 3. Get an ammeter. Easy to use, tells you if the water heater is on or off.
> ...


 





If you read post # 16, you'll see that I suggested this from the beginning, except my way is lots easier than yours. I just shut the cold inlet valve 'off' to the W/H and after a few minutes open it again; you'll hear the W/H filling back up, thus telling you there is a leak on a hot line somewhere. I don't have to install a shut-off on a customer's hot outlet to get a faster result.

From 100's of miles away, I accurately diagnosed his problem BEFORE he verified it in the field.


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> With 80-100psi of pressure, you couldn't even see a flow reduction. Otherwise he would of mentioned it. That's a very crucial point of info you just mentioned.
> 
> When he said "no hot water" he meant it never got truly hot. It was only lukewarm.
> 
> ...


 I'm asking you to test the water temp in the tank so you can explain to the customer how a hot water heater tank works. You set it to heat to a certain temp, and when it hits that temp, it shuts off. It will help you eliminate one source of the problem. To this point, you have no clue if its the hot water heater, the electric, a slab leak. I would have been done with this in 30 minutes.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

MikeS said:


> obviously, you went back on your install. When you went back, you could have whipped out your thermometer, measured 130 degrees at the tank, explained how the tank has a full 50 gallons of 130 degrees of water, and the problem is elsewhere. Or, you could have whipped out your thermometer, read 110 degrees, and realizied the tank was the problem. It is that simple. I do this all the time.


 

Want to track me via satellite? I came and installed the heater, never been back. Got a call late that night that "heater isn't producing hot water and I'm calling the electrician in the morning."


I get a call at 2pm yesterday, tells me the electrician had good news and bad news:

Water heater is working correctly, but there's a leak somewhere that allowing water to leave the tank. He found this out after a thorough testing of the heater, the breaker. 

Turn the valve off, heater produces hot water. When I'm getting equal pressure out of the hot and cold, can't hear a leak... and all is good before I leave...

no place for a thermometer.


Why are saying 130 degrees? No plumber should be setting any water heater above 120 F because of scald danger.

Temperature gauge has no place in the arrival or departure of my work... unless I stay around and eat pizza with the kiddies at this birthday party swatting everyones hands that dares to turn on a hot water handle by accident.

You are obviously thinking I should.


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> If you read post # 16, you'll see that I suggested this from the beginning, except my way is lots easier than yours. I just shut the cold inlet valve 'off' to the W/H and after a few minutes open it again; you'll hear the W/H filling back up, thus telling you there is a leak on a hot line somewhere. I don't have to install a shut-off on a customer's hot outlet to get a faster result.


either way, the op refuses to do the critical test, measure the tank temp

edit:
also, you don't say anything about measuring the tank temp.

edit:
and to really rule out a slab leak, put a pressure guage on the tank drain, then shut off the cold inlet. Pressure guage should hold.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

MikeS said:


> *I'm asking you to test the water temp in the tank so you can explain to the customer how a hot water heater tank works.* You set it to heat to a certain temp, and when it hits that temp, it shuts off. It will help you eliminate one source of the problem. To this point, you have no clue if its the hot water heater, the electric, a slab leak. I would have been done with this in 30 minutes.


 

I'm dealing with water heaters in disrepair when I arrive,


and I'm leaving as fast as I can when the work is done. 


Tell me in the above ritual where I just whip out this gauge when I'm not in repair mode of a water heater tore apart by the customer.


Answer my question directly and quit going off on tangents.


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Want to track me via satellite? I came and installed the heater, never been back. Got a call late that night that "heater isn't producing hot water and I'm calling the electrician in the morning."
> 
> 
> I get a call at 2pm yesterday, tells me the electrician had good news and bad news:
> ...


 well, I don't know how you can troubleshoot temperature problems when you don't know the temperatures. Previous post I just explained how to diagnos pressure problem.


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I'm dealing with water heaters in disrepair when I arrive,
> 
> 
> and I'm leaving as fast as I can when the work is done.
> ...


 
ok, then, When in Doubt, Change it Out, right?

edit:
before you changed out the tank, you had to hook up a hose to drain it, correct? Was the water coming out of it when you drainied it hot? That would be one indicator you ****ed up.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> If you read post # 16, you'll see that I suggested this from the beginning, except my way is lots easier than yours. I just shut the cold inlet valve 'off' to the W/H and after a few minutes open it again; you'll hear the W/H filling back up, thus telling you there is a leak on a hot line somewhere. I don't have to install a shut-off on a customer's hot outlet to get a faster result.
> 
> From 100's of miles away, I accurately diagnosed his problem BEFORE he verified it in the field.


 
Correct. I will not deny that. You were spot on even though I doubted it, knowing I was in the home and couldn't possibly believe the installing plumber would of been f***ing stupid enough to cross those waters under the floor, when the layout easily allows for overhead like the 350 other homes in the same subdivision.



Another situation,

Look at that first picture.

There's a Sioux Chief shutoff valve on that heater with a special sized piece of copper pipe with a brass nut on it.


That valve was not sealing off on that water heater as well, because the property owner said they drained the water heater completely before I arrived. It had been draining steadily when I arrived, you could hear it entering the drain, just that it had doing that for 4.5 hours before I got there.


That heater was 2/3rds full of water when I arrived, it delayed my ability to pull the heater instantly.

They was surprised it wasn't completely drained, I wasn't because valves, even ball valves don't hold back water when subjected to high water pressure and rarely exercised to clear the teflon gland.

If you look closely, you'll see it's not a full 90 degree off.



Now tell me, as I'm now going to bed,


*How am I supposed to be testing off a heater with a non-sealing, non-shutting shutoff valve that isolates the hot from the cold?*


Of course, I shut the water off at the main because I had to disconnect the lines above, which had to be lengthened. Valve had to be replaced at that point which I provided in the install because the tee for the thermal expansion tank needed to be between the shutoff and top of the heater. If you look, it's wrong in the first image.


Enjoyed the conversation... been a long time since I've ran discussions on two boards at the same time. :laughing:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

MikeS said:


> either way, the op refuses to do the critical test, measure the tank temp
> 
> edit:
> also, you don't say anything about measuring the tank temp.
> ...









Both ways are perfectly satisfactory. My way is fast and will zero you (the plumber) in very quickly on a slab leak or a leak of some sort.

Your way is a different way to arrive at the same result. Your way works best for getting extra money out of the mark, er, ah, I mean the customer (client for those of you who subscribe to PHCC, Zig Zigler, etc. ...:laughing while leading the customer along the path of whole house pressure testing, multiple diagnoses, etc. 

Sort of like the MD who runs a battery of tests when one will do.....


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## plumber666 (Sep 19, 2010)

120 degrees? I've never set a tank temp that low. Great temp for bacterial growth, though.


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

because like you said, you were sittiing at your desk when your customer called and you were so sure it was a bad water heater without even looking at it you sold them a new one, and now that policy is going to bite you in the ass. And I tried to help you diagnose the problem, but because of your pride and stupidity, you refuse to admit you made a mistake, which we all do time to time, and i could even give you tips on how to cover that problem, because I've made mistakes too. But you are so sure you have not even solved the problem, you give us all a bad name by referring to an electrician, passing the buck. I know we'll never know the answer. My guess is you'll refer it to the real pro's in your area, guys like me that take the time to figure things out, and use common sense, and not rush to the next job or guess from arm chairs. you asked for help. I repsectfully tried to offer it, and you unrespectfully declined. Good luck. I know you won't have this customer back any time soon.


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no. my way is visual, and correct


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

MikeS said:


> ok, then, When in Doubt, Change it Out, right?
> 
> edit:
> before you changed out the tank, you had to hook up a hose to drain it, correct? Was the water coming out of it when you drainied it hot? That would be one indicator you ****ed up.


 
Refer to my second last post that quotes Tommy Plumber.


You're looking for that one spot "you got me" in my explanation of this situation and you're not going to find it.

I'm very thorough, more thorough than most... it's just this job duped me in a way that I didn't have the chance to see the whole picture before starting... and only finding out after the fact that there was something else in the equation.

Keep your thermal gauge in your pocket... wouldn't of worked on this job because the heater was draining, the picture you ignore is showing you NO THERMOSTATS and the customer was draining the heater, water running out of it when I arrived.


Till another day...


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

plumber666 said:


> 120 degrees? I've never set a tank temp that low. Great temp for bacterial growth, though.


 

Hope you have good liability insurance. 


In a court of law you'll get crucified like Christ if you get caught pushing above 120.


That's code in KY. Too dangerous at 130 for the average kid or elderly... 1st and 2nd degree burns in just 3-5 minutes with 130.


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

well, I'm glad I don't have your problems. The only thing I have hanging over my head is why a newly installed tub/shower valve(Sign of the Crab) doesn't make bubbles any more....


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

MikeS said:


> no. my way is visual, and correct


 




And you say my way isn't correct? Who the hell are you? I have found many leaks with my method. If you want to milk extra money out of someone, then put a guage on the tank and do a pressure test. Isolate the leak to either a cold water line or a hot water line. Install the extra valve on W/H.

How much do you say to customer when they want to know how much is the price to install a valve on the hot outlet side of the W/H??


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> And you say my way isn't correct? Who the hell are you? I have found many leaks with my method. If you want to milk extra money out of someone, then put a guage on the tank and do a pressure test. Isolate the leak to either a cold water line or a hot water line. Install the extra valve on W/H.
> 
> How much do you say to customer when they want to know how much is the price to install a valve on the hot outlet side of the W/H??


how hard is it to screw on a water pressure guage on a water heater? About as hard as hooking up a water hose. sure, your method is fine, but mine is no more trouble. Its definitly more accurate, thats for sure.

edit:
in case you don't know how, just put it on the drain cock. Pressure test away.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

MikeS said:


> how hard is it to screw on a water pressure guage on a water heater? About as hard as hooking up a water hose. sure, your method is fine, but mine is no more trouble. Its definitly more accurate, thats for sure.


 




Both ways arrive at same conclusion. Installing a new ball valve on W/H hot outlet side is more costly to customer and more time consuming. I don't expect you to do it for free, I wouldn't. So your diagnostic test has to cost more to the customer, mine is faster and less expensive in the diagnosis. That's all I am saying. 

I was slighly offended when you implied my way wasn't correct...

I know how the game is played with the customer:

1) get them to sign the show-up fee on your invoice ( in case they tell you to go pound sand later when you present a high price,

2) get them to sign for a house pressure test. (when you already suspect a slab leak)

The pressure test includes, sticking a guage on a hose spigot to test if house holds pressure. If not, leak is on a cold line (with W/H inlet valve closed). If it does hold pressure, then simply open valve on W/H and if it goes down in pressure then leak is on hot line somewhere.

3) After proving to customer there is a slab leak, get them to sign invoice yet again, but this time to perform an electronic leak detection. (and of course if they agree, then the show-up fee and the house pressure test fees get waived because now they are going to pay for the more expensive test...:thumbsup:

You're leading them down the path you want them to follow.


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

plumber666 said:


> 120 degrees? I've never set a tank temp that low. Great temp for bacterial growth, though.


i teach my clients how to set the temp before i leave, and explain the values of having both higher and lower temps. the other thing i ask them to do is to max the temp every 6 months or so for a few hours when they change the filter on the furnace. 

that said most of the retirement homes i work on we keep the tank at around 160, then use a thermostatic valve to knock the temp down to 118f.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Good thing the electrician knew what he was doing... :thumbup:

Looks like we are getting ready to give up the Troubleshooting of Electric Water Heaters part of our work next...


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## CTs2p2 (Dec 6, 2011)

Dunbar, I can and will be honest here.
You shouldn't have missed this leak. Period

Your preaching that your going to get sued for water hotter than 120, understandable. The fellas suggesting hotter settings are assuming that you know a mixing valve would have to accompany the higher settings. I like this theory and agree. 120 degrees can support the growth of bacteria 140 doesn't(this higher setting with mixing valve will be code requirement sooner than later) 

Anyways you preach fear of scald hazard and then you don't have the time to wait for the new heater to satisfy and check temp (so you can be sure nobody gets burnt) especially when there is a house FULL of children having a B-day party.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here but as stated before the electrician got the valve on top to hold and figured this out for your customer?!? Electricians are supposed to be calling us (plumbers) while they're stand in front of a heater scratching their head.

You needed to be hauling that old heater out, doing paper work, grabbing lunch, or whatever. While that heater was heating up, then measure water temp, then you'd have known that YOUR customer still needed YOU not the electrician..

If your really concerned why you missed this it's because you said you don't work on water heaters you just replace them. Your missing out on charging for the repairs of a heater that you will get to swap out (once it's LEAKING!). All this nonsense of repair parts not being good enough for a 6-12 year old heater is only what you've convinced yourself and your customers..


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

So anyway Dunbar, keep us posted. Is the customer hemming and hawing about getting a new W/H that they didn't need? Are you going to repair the slab leak?

Make them see the wisdom of replacing the W/H; perhaps you can diplomatically explain that they were going to replace W/H sooner or later anyway. I am not advocating misleading or ripping-off the customer. But this might be a delicate situation.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Good thing the electrician knew what he was doing... :thumbup:
> 
> Looks like we are getting ready to give up the Troubleshooting of Electric Water Heaters part of our work next...


 
In my company, I pick and choose my work. It's a luxury when you have a selection of calls to pick from daily. The track record of repairs on electric heaters in the past, working for other companies are down, meaning not successful, worthy of the effort. 

Of course, I could easily buy all the electrical testers and make a go at it. I don't want to do it... just like I don't want to dig ditches, replace tubs, plumb new houses.

My company my rules and that's how it is.



CTs2p2 said:


> Dunbar, I can and will be honest here.
> You shouldn't have missed this leak. Period
> 
> Your preaching that your going to get sued for water hotter than 120, understandable. The fellas suggesting hotter settings are assuming that you know a mixing valve would have to accompany the higher settings. I like this theory and agree. 120 degrees can support the growth of bacteria 140 doesn't(this higher setting with mixing valve will be code requirement sooner than later)
> ...


No matter how many times I cycle the information about this situation, some of you are asking questions already answered, and I mentioned all of them, down to the leaking shutoff, house design, customer already sold on the new heater. 

Finding out there's a leak after I'm already home with the new heater installed... I can't really change anything. *I needed a heater not tore apart to do a true evaluation of the situation.*


I do not, will not, will not change my business practices to wait for a full cycle of hot water on a water heater. My track record is probably 1000+ heaters to this 1. It's a first.



Tommy plumber said:


> So anyway Dunbar, keep us posted. Is the customer hemming and hawing about getting a new W/H that they didn't need? Are you going to repair the slab leak?
> 
> Make them see the wisdom of replacing the W/H; perhaps you can diplomatically explain that they were going to replace W/H sooner or later anyway. I am not advocating misleading or ripping-off the customer. But this might be a delicate situation.


Haven't heard from the customer since I called back an hour after I spoke to them saturday, the next day after I installed it the night prior.

Customer isn't upset about the replacement of the heater. They knew it was old, they know they put the wrong elements in. I offered to help with the slab leak but I'm sure they don't want to spend more money. 




What everyone needs to know in participation in this thread: 


I'm not changing, not going to do anything different than I've done countless times before in water heater replacements. 

This one situation hid itself well, finding out after the fact. 

I consider that high water pressure NOT being addressed more important than a slab leak. 

I don't mind being criticized for the outcome of this situation but this was a rush job install. The goal for the customer was get me out of this house because a birthday party was going on. 

Next water heater, I hear over 6 years old, I'll push for replacement, come with a heater and go from there. I'm sold on my method because it's worked well for decades.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

From now on, just take a peek at the meter and see if it's turning.

Call it part of you inspection or something. I dunno, whatever you prefer, but that'll help prevent this sort of thing from reoccuring. 

I am not judging you Dunbar, handle things how you want to. I am not trying to get you to admit or deny wrongdoing. Often we learn from other peoples oversights. Ignore the overly critical and righteously indignant, they wouldn't ever admit they do anything wrong if you saw it first hand.

You type so freaking much I don't really read all of your posts anyway, I just kinda skim it and sometimes gleen what it's all about reading other people reactions.:laughing:

How about posting a pic of that Toyota and how clean you're keeping it.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

ChrisConnor said:


> You type so freaking much I don't really read all of your posts anyway, I just kinda skim it and sometimes gleen what it's all about reading other people reactions.:laughing:


 






Ha ha ha ha......:laughing:


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Dunbars new logo.








I like you just the way you are!


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

All this could had been avoided if u had a clamp on ammeter, and a little bit of thinking outside the box. but it's cool, as long as you learned from your mistake.


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## studmaster1 (Dec 10, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> In my company, I pick and choose my work. It's a luxury when you have a selection of calls to pick from daily. The track record of repairs on electric heaters in the past, working for other companies are down, meaning not successful, worthy of the effort.
> 
> Of course, I could easily buy all the electrical testers and make a go at it. I don't want to do it... just like I don't want to dig ditches, replace tubs, plumb new houses.
> 
> "No disrespect sir but working on electric water heaters without the proper tools seems a little odd. Please understand when you ask for advice and ignore it people feel as if you wsted their time and should be entitled to say what they want. You can keep doing buiness the way you choose but next time you ask for help I'll think I'll just skip your post. "


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> In my company, I pick and choose my work. It's a luxury when you have a selection of calls to pick from daily. The track record of repairs on electric heaters in the past, working for other companies are down, meaning not successful, worthy of the effort.
> 
> Of course, I could easily buy all the electrical testers and make a go at it. I don't want to do it... just like I don't want to dig ditches, replace tubs, plumb new houses.
> 
> My company my rules and that's how it is.


Suit Yourself....
But I'll go out and play Inspector Clousseau because 100% of the time it is necessary to ensure that your proposed repair actually fixes the customers problem.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

studmaster1 said:


> DUNBAR PLUMBING said:
> 
> 
> > In my company, I pick and choose my work. It's a luxury when you have a selection of calls to pick from daily. The track record of repairs on electric heaters in the past, working for other companies are down, meaning not successful, worthy of the effort.
> ...


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## Anonymous (Jan 7, 2012)

This is one of the longest 12 page threads of stump the plumber ... I have ever read....

Doesn't this guy have a water meter installed in his house????

You did say that you turned off the water meter because the valve on the HWT did not fully shut...

Should have been obvious that the meter was spinning....

Sure like you say the home owner had his hands in it before you got there..... and this is where the problem starts

If you were called out with out any interference from him prior you might have found the real problem right away...

In any event.... this senerio would have happen to all of us...

Tank was being drained before he got there...

Nothing more he could do other than replace tank... 

Once it was installed then the real problem was present.... after that the problem should have been found right away..

So the tank change out is not his fault....

But not finding the real problem is...:whistling2:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> studmaster1 said:
> 
> 
> > Back the truck up.
> ...


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

hroark2112 said:


> If you're getting 240V to the heater, but the elements aren't heating, I'd bet dinner that there is either a junction box somewhere on the line between the panel and the heater or there is a damaged wire. The wire is making contact but it doesn't have the capacity to deliver enough amps. Loose wire nut in a junction box is my bet.
> 
> Have an electrician pull a new wire to the heater. To test it, he can pull a temporary wire from the panel to the heater & wire it up. If he does that, I'll bet the heater works perfectly.


was thinking something of this nature also,i had one that was acting funny kinda like op was describing,and come to find out squirrels or rats had eaten into the wires and they would touch a little and then not,breaker would be off and power still at water heater,id check the wire from breaker to wh,if good,replace elements.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

sparky said:


> was thinking something of this nature also,i had one that was acting funny kinda like op was describing,and come to find out squirrels or rats had eaten into the wires and they would touch a little and then not,breaker would be off and power still at water heater,id check the wire from breaker to wh,if good,replace elements.


How did he get in here without getting shorted??


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## Mubeta (Oct 29, 2013)

An element can be bad and check good with an ohm meter, the only true way to see if it is burning is with an amp probe,, You don't have to be an electrician to do this, just snap it around either wire going to the elements, if it shows some amps, its burning. Also something an old plumber told me long ago, turn the bottom thermostat 10 degrees hotter than the top one, Its the bottom one that causes the tank to roll the hot water around and make the whole tank equal. Also, make sure the dip tube didnt fall out or is damaged, they wont heat well without them. If you have some hot water its the bottom element bad, if you dont have any hot water its the top. Also check the wire connections and make sure their tight. When the pweri s turned on sometimes the heat will make the conncection fail


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

If you have some hot water its the bottom element bad, if you dont have any hot water its the top. 

Can you explain this, I rarely see electric heaters but this does not make sense to me.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

love2surf927 said:


> If you have some hot water its the bottom element bad, if you dont have any hot water its the top.
> 
> Can you explain this, I rarely see electric heaters but this does not make sense to me.


In an electric heater, the elements DO NOT run simultaneously. The power to the lower thermostat is controlled by the upper. Power is first applied to the upper. When the top thermostat reaches temperature, then it switches, passing power to the bottom.

If the top fails, then it never reaches temperature and it never passes power to the bottom. (No hot water). If the bottom fails, then the top gets hot, but the bottom doesn't. (Some hot water). When the lower fails, the tank only heats from the upper element above since the heat rises. Customer gets about a third of their normal fully hot tank and complains about running out of hot water in a short time.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

Of course, that's only standard residential 220 heaters. Commercial 3 phase is a whole different animal that I don't have any real experience with, and those rules don't apply.


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