# water powered sump back up



## JenkPlbg (Nov 27, 2011)

Inspector told us today that we needed an rpz for a water powered back up sump pump. If that's the case no one could afford an install.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

That is the case. Some of these water powered pumps offer a unit with an RPZ.

They have other flaws as well. Two gallons of fresh water to pump out one gallon of sump water. I have seen some of the units fail where all they did was allow the domestic water flood the basement.


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## 130 PLUMBER (Oct 22, 2009)

At the end of the day your max out at 21 gpm:whistling2:


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## JenkPlbg (Nov 27, 2011)

SewerRatz said:


> That is the case. Some of these water powered pumps offer a unit with an RPZ.
> 
> They have other flaws as well. Two gallons of fresh water to pump out one gallon of sump water. I have seen some of the units fail where all they did was allow the domestic water flood the basement.


 Do you prefer battery powered?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

JenkPlbg said:


> Inspector told us today that we needed an rpz for a water powered back up sump pump. If that's the case no one could afford an install.


 
They are going to outlaw this product in due time.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

JenkPlbg said:


> Do you prefer battery powered?


Yes I do. Or a whole house generator with two pumps on an alternator circuit.


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## JenkPlbg (Nov 27, 2011)

Oh, I always thought the water powered was the way to go.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/guadian-water-powered-pumps-15687/#post215328 Thread...

Call me a fan of standby generators...


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## 130 PLUMBER (Oct 22, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> Yes I do. Or a whole house generator with two pumps on an alternator circuit.


 
2x:yes:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

JenkPlbg said:


> Do you prefer battery powered?


water operated pumps are not "green freindly"
cause you waste so much water to pump water....

we have had customers with extremely high water bills
only to find that their water back up pump was doing 
like a bad ballcock and throwing water into the pit...

the battery operated Zoeller aquanot II is the best one for my area


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## Boomer! (Feb 24, 2012)

I have installed 100's of Guardian WP pumps (never on a well), the only failures noted were from installation errors. They require RPZ's here in Michigan as the attached Backflow unit is not accepted. I also found that installing the feed for the water powered pump directly after the Meter eliminates pressure fluctuations that can cause the pump difficulties shutting down fully, this was suggested from a local code official. I also always install a separate discharge in case there is a failure in the primary discharge. Just old school and covering my a butt from law suits.

Guardian did have a bad batch of pumps from a lot or two that leaked from the factory threads and made a few unhappy customers. I had two go bad and they were replaced, covered my labor and also covered personal loss on both instances.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

I like the WP backups but I do think that you need an indicator to let you know when the main unit has failed.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Boomer! said:


> *I have installed 100's of Guardian WP pumps (never on a well), the only failures noted were from installation errors.* They require RPZ's here in Michigan as the attached Backflow unit is not accepted. I also found that installing the feed for the water powered pump directly after the Meter eliminates pressure fluctuations that can cause the pump difficulties shutting down fully, this was suggested from a local code official. I also always install a separate discharge in case there is a failure in the primary discharge. Just old school and covering my a butt from law suits.
> 
> Guardian did have a bad batch of pumps from a lot or two that leaked from the factory threads and made a few unhappy customers. *I had two go bad and they were replaced, covered my labor and also covered personal loss on both instances*.


 
So the two that you had go bad, according to your first statement it must of been an installation error on your part. Or is your first statement is wrong since in your second statement that they had a bad batch of pumps and you had two go bad.

The ones I seen go bad has flooded the home from the domestic water supply during the dry season. These pumps should be out and out banned.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

I think I would rather risk the water damage, overuse of water, than a fire. Proper install, water alarm and regular maintenance and inspections would eliminate any drawbacks of water powered sump pumps. 

Regarding my dads house gone a month at a time, I have yet to see a battery back up last more than a couple days keeping up after a rain/wind storm knocks out power. No power or failed sump pump with power, battery backup would have resulted in a flooded basement too after battery died. 

*CPSC, Sta-Rite Industries Inc. Announce Recall of Battery Chargers*

WASHINGTON, D.C. - In cooperation with the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), Sta-Rite Industries Inc., of Delavan, Wis., is voluntarily recalling about 29,000 battery chargers used in battery back-up sump pump systems. The battery chargers can overheat and ignite, melting the charger housing and posing a fire hazard. 

*Sta-Rite has received seven reports of battery chargers overheating or catching fire. Four incidents have involved smoke or fire damage to homes, confined to the immediate area of the charger. No injuries have been reported. *

The recalled battery chargers are used in the "Flotec" and "Sears" back- up sump pump systems. The sump pump system is used to remove water from homes that have basements. This recall involves the charger only, not the sump pump. Consumers can identify whether the sump pumps battery charger is being recalled by checking the sump pump system model number. The Flotec system is model number FP2000DCC-02 or 2P667B and the Sears system is model number 390.306062. The brand name and model number can be found on the pump model plate located on the pump. The part number on the charger is PS17-77 and can be found below the meter on the charger. Sta-Rite will help consumers determine if the battery charger is part of this recall.


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## Boomer! (Feb 24, 2012)

*ASSume much ?*



SewerRatz said:


> So the two that you had go bad, according to your first statement it must of been an installation error on your part. Or is your first statement is wrong since in your second statement that they had a bad batch of pumps and you had two go bad.
> 
> The ones I seen go bad has flooded the home from the domestic water supply during the dry season. These pumps should be out and out banned.


So naturally you go and jump the gun and ASSume that I installed it incorrectly? As if you know anything about me to ASSume. 

To straighten out the facts I used to Manage a crew of 20+ and have seen guys improperly install them. Failure to follow instructions that a kids can understand. Nobody is perfect.

The two that failed we right after the incorporated their own Backflow device. They resolved the problem.

Maybe you yourself are installing them incorrectly and having issues, no, I will retract that and not ASSume. I have only had the few fail, they resolved the issue without question. 

Guardian and Sump-vac are the only two brand I have ever installed and I have yet to see one actually flood a basement, I have seen water damage which the manufacturer covered. The Homecheapo or BLowes WP pumps are junk and I can see a valid complaint using them. Come on, a string and a piece of garden hose ? You get what you pay for.

I work in High end homes very often and have replaced more battery powered system due to battery failure than any Water Powered.

We are entitled opinions, I know what works best in my area and what I have had least problems with. One thing I ask is not to ASSume I am installing them wrong.


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## ibeplumber (Sep 20, 2011)

Boomer! said:


> So naturally you go and jump the gun and ASSume that I installed it incorrectly? As if you know anything about me to ASSume.
> 
> To straighten out the facts I used to Manage a crew of 20+ and have seen guys improperly install them. Failure to follow instructions that a kids can understand. Nobody is perfect.
> 
> ...


We also have installed 100s of guardians over the last 15 Years :thumbup: love them. They easily keep up around here. They are very popular in Michigan We also install high water alarms with them. They must be ran every 6 months only to make sure the lift rod stays free of debris.


SewerRatz said:


> That is the case. Some of these water powered pumps offer a unit with an RPZ.
> 
> They have other flaws as well. Two gallons of fresh water to pump out one gallon of sump water. I have seen some of the units fail where all they did was allow the domestic water flood the basement.


Guardians use 1 gallon of potable to pump 2 gallons of sump water :whistling2: I'm on a well here so i use the Zoeller Aqua Not 2 but if I could, I would have a Guardian any day. I was surprised from the neg. responses in my original post. Have you guys been around them much?:no:


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SewerRatz 
"That is the case. Some of these water powered pumps offer a unit with an RPZ.

They have other flaws as well. Two gallons of fresh water to pump out one gallon of sump water. I have seen some of the units fail where all they did was allow the domestic water flood the basement."


That ratio is flawed its 1 to 1 and less depending on height of discharge.
If you calculate the cost of a battery powered unit, the battery and energy to maintain it versus the cost of water at .004 or whatever per gallon water sump pumps are the better bargain.

Obviously standby generator would be best but that's a considerable investment for many.


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## Boomer! (Feb 24, 2012)

The battery systems could be more efficient. However figure up to 3 days solid rain, no power in a low lying flood plain area, not everyone can afford a back up generator, would you rather have a $400 water bill and a dry basement or $1000 deductible and personal loss that 95% of the insurance companies will not cover. I have worked with a few insurance companies and they will cover structural damages but no personal loss. This does not make me an insurance guru, just basing off personal experience.

The insurance to cover personal loss could be affordable for the same individual that can afford a back up power generator. Generally and property that is below a $350,000 value is not likely to be eligible for this insurance, I cant recall the policy or the exact stipulations but they were ridiculous to say the least. 

I'll gladly pay $400-$1000 water bill to keep my basement dry knowing we have gone longer than a week without power. 

People on a well system are limited, I have never lost city water pressure.


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## B.P. repairer (Jul 14, 2010)

*Hey*

I had a water operated sump pump discharge plug up in a cottage . And let me tell you, that pump just kept trying to pump tell the neighbor saw it coming out the egress windows. That's the 3 rd one I have taken out, all for different reasons.


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## Boomer! (Feb 24, 2012)

B.P. repairer said:


> I had a water operated sump pump discharge plug up in a cottage . And let me tell you, that pump just kept trying to pump tell the neighbor saw it coming out the egress windows. That's the 3 rd one I have taken out, all for different reasons.


INDOOR POOL 
I have seen them fail when installed on the same discharge as the primary sump. I found it is always better to have a separate discharge for any back up system, one less possibility for failure. Even if it dumps on the ground it is better than flooding a basement.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I'd put 2 Zoeller BN-53's in the pit with and alarm and duplex system...

Then I'd put in one of these....
With fuel drawn from my fuel oil tank...

http://www.hardydiesel.com/kubota-generators/kubota-7-kw.html










Have a nice day!

Sump pumps aren't all I like to run when the power goes out...
Heat, Lights, A/C, Refrigerator, Coffee Maker, Stove....
I don't mind the neighbors listening to my generator running.... :laughing:

It ran for 4 days after the snow storm we had at the end of last October...
The trees still had their leaves on and they came down....
Out went the lights!

The thing that got me mad was losing the telephone and internet... :furious::furious:


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## Boomer! (Feb 24, 2012)

Redwood said:


> I'd put 2 Zoeller BN-53's in the pit with and alarm and duplex system...
> 
> Then I'd put in one of these....
> With fuel drawn from my fuel oil tank...
> ...


LOL, that is just pure awesomeness !!!!!!


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