# Uponor banned in Jupiter?



## HOT H2O (Sep 23, 2011)

I just put a rough in the ground for a Huge custom in Jupiter, FL (same development as Michael Jordan). The plumbing inspector called me this morning to say he noticed I was using Wirsbo AquaPex for my water loops under the slab. He then informed me that Pex ring , reinforced joints are not allowed in their jurisdiction. 

He went on to claim that the town had a dispute with Uponor in the past over the compliance to code (South Florida Building Code) with the pex rings. According to ASTM F1960 I believe they are perfectly legal. 

They also mentioned another local plumber that used Wirsbo pipe with the EP fittings , and a "brass crimp ring"? I am not aware of this type of installation. I called Uponor, and their representative is looking into the matter. In the mean time I am trying to set up a meeting with the head building official regarding acceptable practice. 

Uponor specifically stated that they do not warranty fittings installed from other companies, and to my knowledge, Uponor fittings do not even go into the pipe without expansion, so throw the warrany right out the window.

Has anyone ever come across anything like this? 

I'll post my results tomorrow, or as soon as I get answers


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

so the pipe is fine , you just cant crimp it ?


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Sounds like Uponor wouldn't give that inspector a Christmas "Gift"...


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

sharkbites duh


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

So this will hold up the pour a few days while it gets sorted out. 

That's why when I do a permitted job in a town that I've never done before, I'll go to the bldg. dept. and bounce questions and concerns off of the plumbing inspector before diving in.


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## HOT H2O (Sep 23, 2011)

GREENPLUM said:


> so the pipe is fine , you just cant crimp it ?


Actually Pipe is ok, but you can't use expansion rings... you must crimp it.


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## HOT H2O (Sep 23, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> So this will hold up the pour a few days while it gets sorted out.
> 
> That's why when I do a permitted job in a town that I've never done before, I'll go to the bldg. dept. and bounce questions and concerns off of the plumbing inspector before diving in.




Heading down there today. See what other type of unique ordinances or restrictions they may have. To be honest, I never thought that Wirsbo system would be banned.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

HOT H2O said:


> Actually Pipe is ok, but you can't use expansion rings... you must crimp it.


Is the expansion ring the one where you expand the pipe and insert the plastic fitting inside it?


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

TallCoolOne said:


> Is the expansion ring the one where you expand the pipe and insert the plastic fitting inside it?


Correct


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

Titan Plumbing said:


> Correct


I was under the impression that was better than crimp rings


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

I'd fight that one, sounds like horse hockey to me, is it legal for a handful of inspectors to get together and arbitrary ban a perfectly legit pipe system?


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

Fullmetal Frank said:


> I'd fight that one, sounds like horse hockey to me, is it legal for a handful of inspectors to get together and arbitrary ban a perfectly legit pipe system?


They banned CSST for a few while in my city. CSST had a lawsuit and now it is approved.

But the city put so many requirements on it that new builders just use black pipe.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Excerpt from Uponor's warranty:
http://www.uponor-usa.com/~/media/Files/Warranties/Plumbing.aspx

*Limited Warranty:
*...This limited warranty shall commence on the Installation Date of the Uponor Plumbing System and shall expire twenty-five (25) years after the applicable Installation Date.


*Exclusions From Limited Warranty:*
....Without limiting the foregoing, this limited warranty does not apply, and You will have no right of reimbursement, if the product failure or resulting damage is caused by: *(i) faulty installation*; *(ii) components not manufactured or sold by Uponor*;...

According to the local Uponor rep (verbally), the warranty is reduced from 25 years to 5 years if you use crimp fittings. However, according to their written warranty, all bets are off if you do not use their approved system.

I have always been told (and we sometimes do) that crimping Uponor is not a problem. I'm thinking you would have a snow ball's chance in Hell getting Uponor to commit to it in writing.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

HOT H2O said:


> Heading down there today. See what other type of unique ordinances or restrictions they may have. To be honest, I never thought that Wirsbo system would be banned.


 






A little south of you, I did a re-model in the town of Palm Beach. Prior to starting anything, I learned that in that town, if any open flames are going to be on a job site, they require a 'hot works' permit. I went to fire deptartment, paid $ 100 for that permit. Then walked back across the street to the building department and with the 'hot works' permit in hand, they allowed me to submit my application for a plumbing permit.

Plumbers hate surprises when it comes to an inspection. Not only does it hold up a check, but we look bad.

Hope you get this resolved peacefully and inexpensively.


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## bkplumber (Jan 24, 2011)

Ok what I want to know is why are you using any kind of pex in a house near Michael Jordan? Must be a large house. Don't get me wrong I love the Uponor system and use it alot on smaller houses, but on a large house like that money should not be an issue. Why not use copper?


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

I have been installing Uponor Expansion pipe since it became available here (20+years) and have yet to have any trouble with inspectors with it. 7 municipalities, no trouble. I don't think they can ban a approved system. Fight those sombiches.


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

bkplumber said:


> Ok what I want to know is why are you using any kind of pex in a house near Michael Jordan? Must be a large house. Don't get me wrong I love the Uponor system and use it alot on smaller houses, but on a large house like that money should not be an issue. Why not use copper?


I use it on all new houses. 6 to 8 bath is the norm. It will outlast copper here as we have tons of pinhole leaks. That is my thinking.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

So do home run or modified manifold with no connections under the slab :thumbsup: I wouldn't make any pex connection under slab, crimp or otherwise.


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## bkplumber (Jan 24, 2011)

gitnerdun said:


> I use it on all new houses. 6 to 8 bath is the norm. It will outlast copper here as we have tons of pinhole leaks. That is my thinking.


In the slab? You must have responsible footing diggers, here they would cut it with a shovel and never know and if they did they wouldn't tell!


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

bkplumber said:


> In the slab? You must have responsible footing diggers, here they would cut it with a shovel and never know and if they did they wouldn't tell!


That's why you always leave the meter on. And if its off, you know there's trouble.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

Titan Plumbing said:


> That's why you always leave the meter on. And if its off, you know there's trouble.


Your a pretty clever fella !:yes:
I hadn't thought of that.


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## Doubletap (May 5, 2010)

There is a city near me that has banned all "plastic" pipe for pressure. The county I live in has a 100% original code for building sewers. It's a 30 page book and they never have any copies. They will let you look at it while you get a permit. No joke


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

There are 4 towns in my area that have banned PEX because of that little tidbit in the code where it says that fittings shall have no shoulders, ledges or obstruction to flow and may not restrict flow and all pex fittings do.


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

bkplumber said:


> In the slab? You must have responsible footing diggers, here they would cut it with a shovel and never know and if they did they wouldn't tell!


What happens when they hit your copper?

I trench around or below footers as much as possible. Most houses I do are a 5' stem wall, so most footers are already done. But you do need to study the prints for the footers to come. Most jobs end up with pex installed in ceiling and the longer runs below slab.


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## HOT H2O (Sep 23, 2011)

It's now my understanding that a local plumbing contractor was starting a large development with the Wirsbo system, and basically told the inspector that it's what they were using. The inspector got his panties in a bunch and decided it was not allowed under his jurisdiction. 

The original Contractor with the help of Uponor fought the ban, and finally settled on an agreement where they use Souix Chief fittings with copper crimp rings. And for this one development ONLY, Uponor would honor the warranty. Since they were the only contractor using the product in just one development, it was not worth the fight for Uponor. 

But supposedly Uponor already has their papers filed with Tallahassee for some type of law suit if this escalates. I'm torn between using the Crimp Rings, and losing the warranty, switching to Viega Pex, or championing the fight against this inspector. I'm currently working with Uponor for a solution. 

I'll post more when I know more.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

HOT H2O said:


> It's now my understanding that a local plumbing contractor was starting a large development with the Wirsbo system, and basically told the inspector that it's what they were using. The inspector got his panties in a bunch and decided it was not allowed under his jurisdiction.
> 
> The original Contractor with the help of Uponor fought the ban, and finally settled on an agreement where they use Souix Chief fittings with copper crimp rings. And for this one development ONLY, Uponor would honor the warranty. Since they were the only contractor using the product in just one development, it was not worth the fight for Uponor.
> 
> ...


WOW! Just wow...that is utter BS.

Keep us posted, I am very interested o see the outcome.


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## bkplumber (Jan 24, 2011)

gitnerdun said:


> What happens when they hit your copper?
> 
> I trench around or below footers as much as possible. Most houses I do are a 5' stem wall, so most footers are already done. But you do need to study the prints for the footers to come. Most jobs end up with pex installed in ceiling and the longer runs below slab.


Copper can withstand a shovel ding pex would be cut


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## TPWinc (May 30, 2011)

bkplumber said:


> Copper can withstand a shovel ding pex would be cut


 6 of one and a half dozen of the other... I personally like copper but I have had to re-run several loops on the second rough due to a dead copper line. The idiots down here will back fill with a friggen D8 if your not paying attention. Pex will spring back copper will not. As for shovel dings... Pex leaks now and copper leaks later.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

TPWinc said:


> 6 of one and a half dozen of the other... I personally like copper but I have had to re-run several loops on the second rough due to a dead copper line. *The idiots down here* will back fill with a friggen D8 if your not paying attention. Pex will spring back copper will not. As for shovel dings... Pex leaks now and copper leaks later.


 






I think I know those idiots....:laughing:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

It's been a while, any word on this issue?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> It's been a while, any word on this issue?


Its all in the BirchBox now


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TallCoolOne said:


> I was under the impression that was better than crimp rings


That's what your Uponor rep would like you to believe...:laughing:


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## UALocal1Plumber (May 13, 2009)

Redwood said:


> That's what your Uponor rep would like you to believe...:laughing:


I've used both. I'll never use crimp rings again


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

UALocal1Plumber said:


> I've used both. I'll never use crimp rings again


 
the SS crimp tings that Uponot had around for a few years gave them fits and they canned the whole line due to a lot
of homes in our area blowing apart.....:no:

their is a law suit going on about these ss crimps they used
so I dont know wether I would take a chance with any other kind of crimp rings they claim would be ok...

I think would rather use shark bites over an off brand crimp ring or these brass fittings with Aquapex...


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## UALocal1Plumber (May 13, 2009)

I've seen a couple dozen leaks on crimp ring installations. .. people mixing and matching pipe, rings, and fittings, oh yeah and the tools too. Yeah right. I went to uponor a few years ago and it's all I use. I l literally have not had a single leak on one of those joints. The only complaint I have is that the wrought adapter fittings are of a peculiar quality of brass that makes them difficult to solder at times. Other than that I find it far superior to the alternatives.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Uponor has them all beat in the finished product, but there installation and be a pain done times in tight spots and you can't get the fittings as close together as you could on crimp fittings. I use Iponor though, and have never had a issue. I don't trust the low lead crap and don't care for the cinch rings


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## Mike Jessome (Aug 7, 2008)

Will said:


> Uponor has them all beat in the finished product, but there installation and be a pain done times in tight spots and you can't get the fittings as close together as you could on crimp fittings. I use Iponor though, and have never had a issue. I don't trust the low lead crap and don't care for the cinch rings


I find uponor the best pex in tight spots since you can pump a fitting on before you tie into something or if your cutting in a close piece you can pump both ends of the pipe and then put it into place the m12 tool can also get into real tight spots the hand pumper couldn't I have a few old hand pumpers where I cut one handle off so I could fully expand in a tight spot


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## UALocal1Plumber (May 13, 2009)

Mike Jessome said:


> I find uponor the best pex in tight spots since you can pump a fitting on before you tie into something or if your cutting in a close piece you can pump both ends of the pipe and then put it into place the m12 tool can also get into real tight spots the hand pumper couldn't I have a few old hand pumpers where I cut one handle off so I could fully expand in a tight spot


See this is what I try to tell everyone. .. You can get the uponor into tiiiiight spots without having to wreck framing or drywall


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## ROTOR KING (Oct 7, 2008)

our upinor representative says they wont guarantee the pipe or connection if its crimped,has to be expanded


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

. :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

A Guarantee from a PEX Manufacturer...

That's some funny stuff to be concerned about...

Consider history says the only way to get money from them is with a Class Action....


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## HOT H2O (Sep 23, 2011)

Not sure. Had a dispute with the contractor and never finished that job. I don't do much work in Jupiter, and when I do now, it's copper.


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## smoldrn (Oct 4, 2010)

Never even heard of Uponor until I joined this forum, & I've worked both sides of this state for 25 yrs. I've always used the copper crimp rings & have never had a problem. The pex pipe I use, they call 'superpex', it has a black lining inside the wall, good stuff. Pump it up with 100lbs of air, no leaks.


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## UALocal1Plumber (May 13, 2009)

smoldrn said:


> Never even heard of Uponor until I joined this forum, & I've worked both sides of this state for 25 yrs. I've always used the copper crimp rings & have never had a problem. The pex pipe I use, they call 'superpex', it has a black lining inside the wall, good stuff. Pump it up with 100lbs of air, no leaks.


We regularly test our uponor rigs with 180 psi which is the highest my shop compressor will pump to. A few times i had the compressor waiting and started charging 5 seconds after making the v final connection. 

Didn't leak.


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