# Roots in ferncos



## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

Hey guys. I'm doing a sewer replacement which I don't do very often. This thing is riddled with roots. I have to use a fernco on one end and was wondering what kind of tricks to utilize to keep the roots out of the rubber coupling. Thanks!


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

What materials are you joining? Compact the soil under the fernco, used a shielded fernco, and put a few bags of concrete around it


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

Will said:


> What materials are you joining? Compact the soil under the fernco, used a shielded fernco, and put a few bags of concrete around it



No do not do that.....trie to hard pipe everything to the city 45 tie 

I don't recommend putting concrete around the ferncos because if it ever fails it will be hell to repair 

The only band You will need is at the house doing the transition from cast iron to PVC 
Try using a clamp all band with stainless steel jacket


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

Instead of concrete embed the pipe with stabilized sand and under clamp all bands or ferncos


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

Will said:


> What materials are you joining? Compact the soil under the fernco, used a shielded fernco, and put a few bags of concrete around it


I'm tying on to 4" clay coming from under the house. The rest will be hard piped using ABS. I don't know of a shielded coupling that transitions from clay to ABS, and I've got the line out now don't have time to special order a part.


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

Clay to plastic C/I Strongback (shielded) fernco not special order I can get one at any plumbing supply around me.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Copper Sulfate turns roots, salt will do it but will turn to fertilizer over time.
Have issue like this with old Cantex clay we used to use.

Problem with any and all are the clamps (strong back or not) loosing torques at least the strong back has two clamps, roots will find the water.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Leach713 said:


> No do not do that.....trie to hard pipe everything to the city 45 tie
> 
> I don't recommend putting concrete around the ferncos because if it ever fails it will be hell to repair
> 
> ...



Not taling about pouring a footing around it, just giving a more stable base with the concrete, doesn't even have to be mixed much. And trust me, it will come out easy in the future with pulling back on the joystick on the mini ex:whistling2:


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

love2surf927 said:


> I'm tying on to 4" clay coming from under the house. The rest will be hard piped using ABS. I don't know of a shielded coupling that transitions from clay to ABS, and I've got the line out now don't have time to special order a part.




4" clay under house???


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Will said:


> 4" clay under house???


Must be a reallly old house


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

Will said:


> Not taling about pouring a footing around it, just giving a more stable base with the concrete, doesn't even have to be mixed much. And trust me, it will come out easy in the future with pulling back on the joystick on the mini ex:whistling2:


Or bed it in stucco mix or mortar mix. Something that cures a little softer.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

Will said:


> 4" clay under house???


It's actually going under a deck in the front of the house I tried talking him into removing planks from the deck to get all the way up to the house but he didn't go for it.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

love2surf927 said:


> I'm tying on to 4" clay coming from under the house. The rest will be hard piped using ABS. I don't know of a shielded coupling that transitions from clay to ABS, and I've got the line out now don't have time to special order a part.


I got them in in my van right now. But another thing you can do is wrap copper flashing around the fernco. Copper kills trees and the theory is this will keep the roots away....but it's only a theory. The other option is to pipe patch the transition.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

love2surf927 said:


> Hey guys. I'm doing a sewer replacement which I don't do very often. This thing is riddled with roots. I have to use a fernco on one end and was wondering what kind of tricks to utilize to keep the roots out of the rubber coupling. Thanks!












Why do you want to keep the roots out of the ferncos?......:laughing:


Kidding of course. Don't forget a 2-way c.o. and bring it up to grade.


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

Go to the landscape supply and get a bag of lime. Just dump it on the Franco. Or cover it in limestone roots can't stand it.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Does the lime dissolve over time? Does it corrode anything?


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

gear junkie said:


> Does the lime dissolve over time? Does it corrode anything?


Hey gear junkie, I'm short Yes lime can eat the band clamps, although it usually requires aggressive soil to act as a catalyst. And Love2surf I've done well over 400 sewer connections when I ran our underground div. in addition to doing service calls for the last 12 years in coachella valley, I've seen almost all type of attempts to prevent roots as we have very aggressive trees such as tamarisk, olive, mesquite, ficus, palm, citrus and oleanders. What I've learned is roots are going to find a way. All our water districts use clay laterals from curb to street 100% of the time, many times while tying in a house we discover the lateral (unused) is full of roots anyway and needs to be relined or replaced (at the homeowners expense) All you can do is your part and install your 4"clay/4" CI PVC fernco properly (make sure both ends of pipe are seated fully, properly torqued and compacted around). When I tie in at city I expose 6" under transition and pour a few bags of pea gravel under and around the fitting and tamp down which gives a good base that's easily dug up if needed (this is the same method we use when laying base down for a septic tank install). Roots are going to happen, however, it will be years (maybe never) down the road and as long as you did your job properly it will not be your fault.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Limestone is in concrete, just pour it all around the fernco, keeps the roots out


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

We usually throw a plastic bag over the fernco. I don't believe it does. Unfortunately its the best cure we can come up with. We had a shallow 8 inch main sewer we dug through the woods 12 years ago. We had to fernco on to the existing lateral. We used a bag of mason lime at every connection. Fast forward to September this year. We are replacing laterals to the houses but our fernco look good as new. The lime was still there just pastry looking.


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

Unless you are eliminating all the clay you will never really be able to stop roots. 

I've been on numerous snake jobs where the exterior had been dug up and new plastic put in to the street. The roots worked further back till they found a weak spot. 

Like others have said, if and when they come back it will be a long time down the road, so I wouldn't sweat it, unless you are giving a lifetime warranty, of which you would have to be nuts to do.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> Hey gear junkie, I'm short Yes lime can eat the band clamps, although it usually requires aggressive soil to act as a catalyst. And Love2surf I've done well over 400 sewer connections when I ran our underground div. in addition to doing service calls for the last 12 years in coachella valley, I've seen almost all type of attempts to prevent roots as we have very aggressive trees such as tamarisk, olive, mesquite, ficus, palm, citrus and oleanders. What I've learned is roots are going to find a way. All our water districts use clay laterals from curb to street 100% of the time, many times while tying in a house we discover the lateral (unused) is full of roots anyway and needs to be relined or replaced (at the homeowners expense) All you can do is your part and install your 4"clay/4" CI PVC fernco properly (make sure both ends of pipe are seated fully, properly torqued and compacted around). When I tie in at city I expose 6" under transition and pour a few bags of pea gravel under and around the fitting and tamp down which gives a good base that's easily dug up if needed (this is the same method we use when laying base down for a septic tank install). Roots are going to happen, however, it will be years (maybe never) down the road and as long as you did your job properly it will not be your fault.


They don't still use clay do they?? On new installs?


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

Around here the guys laying the mains would run em in clay with a stub into the yard for the plumbers to hook onto. Give it twenty years I will be cleaning sewers in those neighborhoods


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Unclog1776 said:


> Around here the guys laying the mains would run em in clay with a stub into the yard for the plumbers to hook onto. Give it twenty years I will be cleaning sewers in those neighborhoods


Asumming clay with pvc bell??


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

love2surf927 said:


> They don't still use clay do they?? On new installs?


:yes:

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f21/tankless-install-26513/index6/#post418826


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> Asumming clay with pvc bell??


Not sure. Just know it's clay


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

All of Houston news in consist of PVC or Sdr 35


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

Leach713 said:


> All of Houston news in consist of PVC or Sdr 35


New mains


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

Hard to believe but in cleveland we still install clay pipe on the municipal side. No plastic allowed. Even the clean out risers must be clay. We can switch to pc on the private side.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

love2surf927 said:


> They don't still use clay do they?? On new installs?


Yes, if I were to get a lateral install for Monday, I would have to tap into city main in street with a saddle and run 4" or 6" clay (depending on capacity requirement) all the way to at least curb then I can plumb ABS from the house to clay stub out. So there is no avoiding using a fernco transition coupling.


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## incarnatopnh (Feb 1, 2011)

Here concrete is required around any buried fernco. Of course we are only allowed to use sdr35


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

These are pretty good....

And so are these...

We've go some at our shop that I like better but I can't remember who makes them, I'll have to check...


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

Let me rephrase they are still some area that have concrete mains still but several a yrs ago
The city of Houston did some pipe bursting in most of the area


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

Certain area of our city when can't use saddle 
If main is 6 -8" is the plumber problem to install a PVC sch 40 wye with approve ferncos and stabilize sand 

If the main is 10" and up , the city comes out and put a new tap.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

Are there any advantages to using clay? Seems that other materials would be superior. Any specific reasons for using it? Kind of derailing my own thread here I guess haha.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Clay is a great product if installed correctly, but I can't think of many reasons it would be better than PVC


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## CTs2p2 (Dec 6, 2011)

Redwood said:


> These are pretty good.... And so are these... We've go some at our shop that I like better but I can't remember who makes them, I'll have to check...


I like to use mission but have never seen those adjustable ones you linked..

Here is what I'm handed at the supply house when I ask for say.... a 4" copper or cast or whatever x plastic mission coupling 

http://www.missionrubber.com/Products/BandSealCouplings.php


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

Clay is a great product but is temperamental. If you don't work with it regularly it can be a real chore. I've seen clay sewers that were 75 years old that looked as good or better then a new install. But it is all in the tradesmen who put it in.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

CTs2p2 said:


> I like to use mission but have never seen those adjustable ones you linked..
> 
> Here is what I'm handed at the supply house when I ask for say.... a 4" copper or cast or whatever x plastic mission coupling
> 
> http://www.missionrubber.com/Products/BandSealCouplings.php


Tell them they better get a grip! :laughing:


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## LIQUID (Sep 26, 2013)

Roots love clay pipe.... that is all.


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## wyoredman (Oct 10, 2013)

We always use a bag of rock salt in our sewer service line trenches, especially the ones with root problems. I put extra around the Fernco connections before we backfill. Trees don't like the salty soil, and avoid the pipe for years after.

Doesn't work so well in high water tables, though.

Clay sewer mains have been used in areas with high ground water. The open joints of the clay pipe act as a "French Drain". It was done everywhere, for many years. Today, the EPA and State DEQ departments are starting to crack down on the open joint clay sewage systems. The infiltration is adding too much flow to the sewage treatment facilities. Many of the old clay mains all over the country are being replaced or lined.

To tap a service into a clay main, I suggest using a rubber 45* saddle, stainless clamps sized to the main, and a gas powered cut - off saw. Cut a square hole in the pipe above the flow line of the sewer, clamp on the saddle, transition to SDR 35 PVC for the service. Glued PVC joints don't allow infiltration and are hard for roots to penetrate. Use a bag of salt around the saddle and any Fernco's, bed the pipe with good material to keep it from deforming (egging). Backfill. Don't forget two way clean-outs! 

Tap concrete in a similar fashion, but if the diameter of the main is large, use Sack-Crete and a tin form and pour the tap fitting into the main, in place of a saddle.


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## LIQUID (Sep 26, 2013)

Hmm good idea with the salt. I like this idea.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

LIQUID said:


> Hmm good idea with the salt. I like this idea.


Yea it will do great packed around cast iron... :thumbup:


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

love2surf927 said:


> I'm tying on to 4" clay coming from under the house. The rest will be hard piped using ABS. I don't know of a shielded coupling that transitions from clay to ABS, and I've got the line out now don't have time to special order a part.


Salt will turn to fertilizer eventually. Use copper sulfate, but wash your hands it is poisonous.


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## wyoredman (Oct 10, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Yea it will do great packed around cast iron... :thumbup:


 Who mentioned anything about cast?

And I suggest that if anyone does find cast service sewers, they try really hard to convince the home owner to have it replaced with something that is a bit less susceptible to corrosion. 

Sewer gasses from city mains will eat up cast as easy as 1-2-3. 

Not to mention soil electrolysis. Buried cast w/o cathodic protection coupled with sewer gas is a disaster waiting to happen.

That is why clay and concrete were used prior to the advent of PVC!


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

The rock salt will not corrode the fernco bands?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

wyoredman said:


> Who mentioned anything about cast?
> 
> And I suggest that if anyone does find cast service sewers, they try really hard to convince the home owner to have it replaced with something that is a bit less susceptible to corrosion.
> 
> ...


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
Along with cast iron, galvanized, copper, orangeburg, bermico, transite, and probably a few that I'm forgetting...

Oh yea... Wood!


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

newyorkcity said:


> The rock salt will not corrode the fernco bands?


Depends on the quality of the bands...
Are they all stainless? Including the screw?


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## LIQUID (Sep 26, 2013)

I forgot this is pz.. where people are *&^%$ whenever possiblle. I don't think he means to bury it in salt.. just to add some.. really, you can't learn if your so uppity folks..


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## LIQUID (Sep 26, 2013)

My appologies wyrodman

People here know everything and have done everything


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

LIQUID said:


> I forgot this is pz.. where people are dicks whenever possiblle. I don't think he means to bury it in salt.. just to add some.. really, you can't learn if your so uppity folks..


Thanks Richard! :thumbup:


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## wyoredman (Oct 10, 2013)

No harm, No foul.

But I must say, I have done my share of underground and NEVER seen galvanized, copper, bermico, and transite, used as sewer mains.

Underground potable water distribution and service, yes, but not underground waste lines! (Building stub-outs not included)

BTW, orangeburg is paper coated in asphalt, non metallic- so it isn't susceptible to electrolysis.

Another bit of trivia - Transite pipe is asbestos infused concrete, or AC pipe. If you cut it, use a respirator!

ETA - REDWOOD, How much actual underground main work do service plumbers do?


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## incarnatopnh (Feb 1, 2011)

wyoredman said:


> No harm, No foul.
> 
> But I must say, I have done my share of underground and NEVER seen galvanized, copper, bermico, and transite, used as sewer mains.
> 
> ...


We have miles of A/C sewer mains around here. And not for nothing salt works it magic on concrete too!


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

316 Stainless is a common grade used for worm-gear clamps and bands on elastomeric couplings made by Fernco and Mission Rubber. This report from the NRC indicates that dumping rock salt in the hole will damage the stainless steel components...


http://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ML1122/ML112212340.pdf

CONTAINER CORROSION WORKSHOP REPORT 
Prepared for U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 
Contract No. NRC–02–07–006 

4.5 Stress Corrosion Cracking of Stainless Steel (SCC)
...Based on literature information on chemical and thermal conditions of potential disposal environments and literature data on SCC susceptibility of 316 stainless steel in different aqueous solutions, it is concluded that 316 stainless steel appears susceptible to SCC in a potential rock salt disposal environment.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

wyoredman said:


> No harm, No foul.
> 
> But I must say, I have done my share of underground and NEVER seen galvanized, copper, bermico, and transite, used as sewer mains.
> 
> ...


:laughing:

I believe we were talking of a clay line coming out from under a house...

I actually see quite a few sewer lines coming out of houses...
We repair, replace, reline, and pipe burst...

BTW Orangeburg and Bermico are wood fiber infused with asphalt and has about a 25 year service life expectancy...

It gets brittle, delaminates, warps and otherwise get misshaped, and some of it just disappears. XH cast iron will last many years longer underground than Orangeburg or, Bermico pipe...

We don't fix it!
We replace it!


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## wyoredman (Oct 10, 2013)

I give up. 

So don't use salt around buried Fernco's. Doesn't really matter to me. I was just trying to help the OP and others by letting them know how I do it.



> Hey guys. I'm doing a sewer replacement which I don't do very often. This thing is riddled with roots. I have to use a fernco on one end and was wondering what kind of tricks to utilize to keep the roots out of the rubber coupling. Thanks!


I realize, I only have 22 posts on PZ, which pails in comparison to 13,500! Must mean I'm an idiot! At least until I get to 5,000! Maybe someday we can all be Internet Plumbers!

(Wood Fiber = Paper) http://www.sewerhistory.org/articles/compon/orangeburg/orangeburg.htm


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Damm man, stop being so sensitive. Take some frickin midol.


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## wyoredman (Oct 10, 2013)

How's that for sensitive?

As for the midol...I don't let internet hog  bother me. Just fanning the flames, that's all.:furious:


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## wyoredman (Oct 10, 2013)

Just for the sake of information to PZ:

This is a pic of a water main vault we just worked on. It has a bit of everything going on. The C900 PVC is connected to ductile iron coming through the vault with mechanical fittings. The fittings are protected with anodes welded to them then wrapped with plastic. Washed rock is used as bedding because it doesn't need compaction and it is not conductive to electrolysis. Also note that the vault is drained with 4" PVC, purple primer and all. 

I realize that this thread is about sewage lines and rubber fernco's, but I didn't have any pics to show proper underground installation of waste lines. I may have some in my files, I will check.
http://s1059.photobucket.com/user/wyoredman/media/IMG_0009_zps4af504a4.jpg.html


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## wyoredman (Oct 10, 2013)

Found one!

Here is a picture of a temporary sewer line fix using ferco's. The local Electric company bored a new pole in right through an 8" sewer main, then left the site without notifying anyone. Within a few days, the line was completely backed up into people's homes! Once the problem was discovered, we dug the problem and temporarily fixed the main with ferncos until the power pole could be moved out of the line of sewer.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

wyoredman said:


> How's that for sensitive?
> 
> As for the midol...I don't let internet hog  bother me. Just fanning the flames, that's all.:furious:


So Trolling...

Don't worry about it...

The newbies needing Midol are like the little drunks in a bar on amateur night...
They all want to fight with the biggest guys....:laughing:

10¢ / Dozen...


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

wyoredman said:


> I give up.
> 
> So don't use salt around buried Fernco's. Doesn't really matter to me. I was just trying to help the OP and others by letting them know how I do it.
> 
> ...


Most of us here past the 26 posts.. don't worry, keep taking the Midols and ur skin will get thicker..


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## wyoredman (Oct 10, 2013)

No fun fighting with little guys!

Have a cold beer on me: It's FRIDAY!


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

You know how the name Fernco gets used for Mission brand couplings and vice versa right? I meant to gets some pics but here in Seattle all sewer bands must be the reinforced style (strong back) with the center stainless band. Sounds like a good thing right? Well the fenrco strong back does not tighten up tight on SDR35 in 4", sometimes they do and sometimes they don't while the mission version will actually get tight on the SDR35. So even though I say "Fernco" that is not what brand I use. Bummer is I know a lot of the shielded fernco's are installed now all over the city since they changed the code, and I brought it up to an inspector and they did not care.


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## LIQUID (Sep 26, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Thanks Richard! :thumbup:


Ritchard? Am I missing something?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

LIQUID said:


> Ritchard? Am I missing something?


Yes... I think you are....


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## LIQUID (Sep 26, 2013)

As I thought.. no promises though.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

LIQUID said:


> I forgot this is pz.. where people are *&^%$ whenever possiblle. I don't think he means to bury it in salt.. just to add some.. really, you can't learn if your so uppity folks..


I didn't really see anybody being a Richard here just a typical conversation around here. There are a lot of egos here but along with those egos is an unparalleled wealth of information. I take everyone's opinions into account (for the most part). When you get so many knowledgable people in one spot there are bound to be disagreements but out of those disagreements comes even more learning. Carry on....


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## Ghostmaker (Jan 12, 2013)

mix this in the dirt as you backfill, http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/290903789532?lpid=82


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