# Water heater installed upside down



## LordOfThePipe

Any thoughts on this to me it's a lot of red flags ...no safe pan ,upside down ,not sure about those supports either is this thinking outside the box or just plain wrong


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## plbgbiz

I'm not sure what the contest is but surely that won. :laughing:


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## jc-htownplumber

Well...umm does it work??


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## LordOfThePipe

They said they have a lot of problems with it I I imagine the water doesn't mix right would be first and foremost I didn't inquire too much just gave a business card and told them we'd be glad to fix it


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## LordOfThePipe

If you look closely on the bottom left side which being upside down I don't know if that's hot or cold there's a lot of corrosion what happens if it starts leaking it's just going to flood the business out


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## Tommy plumber

Not aproved installation. 

1} The T&P is supposed to be in the top 6" of the tank where it will sense the hottest water. 

2} Also, bottom-fed water heaters need a vacuum relief valve installed. That is a hack installation.

3} Needs a safety pan with a drain.


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## Tommy plumber

Not aproved installation. 

1} The T&P is supposed to be in the top 6" of the tank where it will sense the hottest water. 

2} Also, bottom-fed water heaters need a vacuum relief valve installed. That is a hack installation.

3} Needs a safety pan with a drain.


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## Nathan901

You see what happens when the factory puts the element cover plate on upside down? Chaos. 



Aren't Bradford White heaters only sold to plumbers?


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## plbgbiz

Nathan901 said:


> ...Aren't Bradford White heaters only sold to plumbers?


:no:


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## Nathan901

But the label says...


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## plumbdrum

Why is this in the drain cleaning thread? Oh and ya that's all f'ed up

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## LordOfThePipe

Sorry I didn't realize I posted on drain cleaning just reposted in general


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## Tommy plumber

Moved thread to 'Plumbing Code' section which is more suitable.


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## drain surgeon

All I can say is WTF


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## Da Bad Guy

Now, THAT'S talent. Wonder what kind of bracket that is?


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## Cajunhiker

Interesting


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## Plumb26

They must have been jamming out to some Lionel Richie while installing this. :whistling2: 'Oh, what a feelin'....... When we're dancin' on the ceilin''..........:whistling2:


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## woberkrom

I think that is another local company's sticker on there....

I hope I'm wrong...


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## Redwood

"Ummm Boss... I know you say to put our sticker on everything..."
"But I'm not sure you want us to put one on this water heater..."

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## GrtLksPlbr

That water heater is actually made to be installed like that. It has a factory supplied bracket for wall hung applications and the H/C connections are at the bottom as pictured. If it were truly upside down the t+p bung would be much lower on the tank.

http://www.bradfordwhite.com/wall-hung-models


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## PLUMBER_BILL

GrtLksPlbr said:


> That water heater is actually made to be installed like that. It has a factory supplied bracket for wall hung applications and the H/C connections are at the bottom as pictured. If it were truly upside down the t+p bung would be much lower on the tank.
> 
> http://www.bradfordwhite.com/wall-hung-models



Who said old farts can't learn something new ... I just did ...


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## Plumber

GrtLksPlbr said:


> That water heater is actually made to be installed like that. It has a factory supplied bracket for wall hung applications and the H/C connections are at the bottom as pictured. If it were truly upside down the t+p bung would be much lower on the tank.
> 
> http://www.bradfordwhite.com/wall-hung-models


Saved me searching for it. The clue was the t/p valve installed on top...I mean bottom.


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## woberkrom

GrtLksPlbr said:


> That water heater is actually made to be installed like that. It has a factory supplied bracket for wall hung applications and the H/C connections are at the bottom as pictured. If it were truly upside down the t+p bung would be much lower on the tank.
> 
> http://www.bradfordwhite.com/wall-hung-models


Ok.

Good.

That company that I think is on the sticker is a good company.

I've recommended them to people when we couldn't' get there ourselves.

--Will


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## mrjasontgreek

Nathan901 said:


> You see what happens when the factory puts the element cover plate on upside down? Chaos.


 
I was just going to comment that, it was very nice of them to take the time and attention to detail to flip the element cover over. that's the sign of a true quality craftsman.:laughing:


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## Master Mark

how is it hanging on the wall??

Is there some sort of bracket behind the heater that I cannot see in the picture???


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## wyrickmech

It may be made for that install but the ball valves are still upside down. And no vacuumed relief.


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## plumbdrum

wyrickmech said:


> It may be made for that install but the ball valves are still upside down. And no vacuumed relief.


Maybe behind wall? Nah doubt it .

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## wyrickmech

plumbdrum said:


> Maybe behind wall? Nah doubt it . Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


 brackets are built in the back. But valves are still wrong.


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## Tommy plumber

So assuming there is a dip tube, the cold water is conducted to the top of the W/H. How is the T&P sensing any super-heated water that way? Or is there no dip tube in this upside down W/H?

And there should be a pan to prevent structural damage to the building.

Also there is no boiler drain at the bottom to drain the thing.


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## wyrickmech

Tommy plumber said:


> So assuming there is a dip tube, the cold water is conducted to the top of the W/H. How is the T&P sensing any super-heated water that way? Or is there no dip tube in this upside down W/H? And there should be a pan to prevent structural damage to the building. Also there is no boiler drain at the bottom to drain the thing.


I agree on the drain point. Maybe the heater is above a mop sink. Lol


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## jc-htownplumber

Plumber said:


> Saved me searching for it. The clue was the t/p valve installed on top...I mean bottom.


My reasoning for the tnp on the top(bottom) was I seen a lot of heaters with side ports. I though they had used one I those


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## GrtLksPlbr

Tommy plumber said:


> So assuming there is a dip tube, the cold water is conducted to the top of the W/H. How is the T&P sensing any super-heated water that way? Or is there no dip tube in this upside down W/H?
> 
> And there should be a pan to prevent structural damage to the building.
> 
> Also there is no boiler drain at the bottom to drain the thing.



You raise some good points. I looked into the dip tube issue and found that the cold inlet has no dip tube, but does contain the anode rod and that the hot side has the dip tube. Basically the reverse of a top connected model.


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## plumbdrum

It would make sense that would be a dip tube on hot

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## Nathan901

Hot water obviously rises so all it would need to function properly is a dip tube on the hot going to the top of the heater. 

The thing is, you wouldn't be able to open a faucet and drain the whole thing down. The drain must just be out of frame.


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## Letterrip

Code used to prohibit a valve on the outlet of any tank type water heater. Not sure if it is still there since we went to the IPC based code.


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## SewerRatz

Right at the heater after the ball valve should be a pair of tee's, one with a vacuum relief valve and the other with a boiler drain on it to be able to safely drain the heater. I have seen a few dozen of these heaters installed. 

Also if there is a check, or a backflow preventer on the cold water service it will also need an expansion tank.


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## plumbdrum

SewerRatz said:


> Right at the heater after the ball valve should be a pair of tee's, one with a vacuum relief valve and the other with a boiler drain on it to be able to safely drain the heater. I have seen a few dozen of these heaters installed. Also if there is a check, or a backflow preventer on the cold water service it will also need an expansion tank.


Vacuum relief should be a minimum of 6" above top of tank.

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## wyrickmech

plumbdrum said:


> Vacuum relief should be a minimum of 6" above top of tank. Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


 ok then think of this if the bottom is the top then dose the vacuum breaker go on the top of the tank which is the bottom or does it go on the bottom that is actually the top?


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## plbgbiz

wyrickmech said:


> ok then think of this if the bottom is the top then dose the vacuum breaker go on the top of the tank which is the bottom or does it go on the bottom that is actually the top?


...


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## wyrickmech

Lol


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## plumbdrum

wyrickmech said:


> ok then think of this if the bottom is the top then dose the vacuum breaker go on the top of the tank which is the bottom or does it go on the bottom that is actually the top?


Doesn't install on tank, install on incoming cold pipe 6" above tank. But maybe just maybe there is a tap on the bottom of tank or is it the top of tank. Maybe lay it sideways remove TP install on what is now the side, put vacuum relief on top tap which was the side. Time for a drink

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## MACPLUMB777

plbgbiz said:


> ...


What I have felt like the last two mornings with a migraine headache


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## infomr

The two reasons I've heard from two different electricians:

1. If you're cutting something with a knife on a kitchen counter and slice through an appliance cord, you'll cut through the ground first if the plug is upside down. This will trip the GFCI and prevent you from shocking yourself.

2. If the plug is hanging slightly out of the outlet, the terminals are exposed. If something metal is dropped against the wall and it strikes the plug, it would short out, causing a spark and possible fire hazard. Turning it upside down, the object would simply bounce off the ground terminal on it's way down.


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## david thompson

"Ummm Boss... I know you say to put our sticker on everything..."
"But I'm not sure you want us to put one on these plumbing forums.


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## Gargalaxy

Is this the none intro competition?


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## pianoplumber

We've all done stupid things when we were apprentices, but... really???


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## Russell RA Tech

HI Guys

I know this thread is a couple of months old now but I have just joined and unvented cylinders regulations research are my thing at the moment, but in order to make sense of terms can someone steer me in the right direction on a couple of items? (I'm based in the UK!)

1/ Is a "vacuum relief valve" the same or different to your standard "pressure relief valve"? And if different what is it and what is it intended to do?
2/ Someone commented that the isolation valves in the picture are on "upside down" I'm confused by that because hydraulically it makes no difference to a lever ball valve what way "up" it is. I can understand a pump motor shaft has a definite right way up to prevent undue bearing wear but not so for iso valves
3/ Do your regulations insist on a drip drain pan to be installed (which itself is then run to waste) under a water heater mounted like this or is it a "proffered" option. Either way if its pan connection is run to drain what type of trap do you install? (I presume not wet because of drying out)

Oh and what are your regulations called that govern the installation of unvented cylinders and more specifically how popular are they?

many thanks in advance and sorry to be a limey with different English terms!

Russ


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## wyrickmech

Russell RA Tech said:


> HI Guys I know this thread is a couple of months old now but I have just joined and unvented cylinders regulations research are my thing at the moment, but in order to make sense of terms can someone steer me in the right direction on a couple of items? (I'm based in the UK!) 1/ Is a "vacuum relief valve" the same or different to your standard "pressure relief valve"? And if different what is it and what is it intended to do? 2/ Someone commented that the isolation valves in the picture are on "upside down" I'm confused by that because hydraulically it makes no difference to a lever ball valve what way "up" it is. I can understand a pump motor shaft has a definite right way up to prevent undue bearing wear but not so for iso valves 3/ Do your regulations insist on a drip drain pan to be installed (which itself is then run to waste) under a water heater mounted like this or is it a "proffered" option. Either way if its pan connection is run to drain what type of trap do you install? (I presume not wet because of drying out) Oh and what are your regulations called that govern the installation of unvented cylinders and more specifically how popular are they? many thanks in advance and sorry to be a limey with different English terms! Russ


ok a vacuum relief is not the same as a pressure/temperature relief. It is exactly what it says it is it relives from vacuum if the water heater is higher than the fixtures it could in theory cause the tank to collapse so when the tank pressure goes into a vacuum the valve opens. The isolation valve can only be on incoming water if you have them on both sides you create the potential for a explosion. The drip pan is a popular code but the drain is indirect with no need of being trapped.


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## Russell RA Tech

Cheers wyrickmech

We don't normally have vacuum relief valves on our systems, I wonder if we either, do not consider a vacuum implosion to be a huge risk, or that the installation methods driven by our regulations mean that there is little risk of a vacuum being formed?

However, traditionally, we fit unvented heaters below the taps (i.e. in the base cabinet) and if its mounted above counter, it would have its own vented spout (point of use single outlet). I personally have never seen a small (under 15 litre - 3 gallon) being mounted at high level if it is unvented.

As for the iso valves, I suppose as the outlet is connected to a tap there is no real need for a valve as once the unit is isolated upstream on the cold once it is drained down no need for second valve on hot outlet, however I still don't quite understand how a vacuum can be caused at such a high pressure to cause an implosion (are the cylinders not that strong?)

How do you mean drain on pan is indirect? Were will it discharge to? I can only think that it would go to over a local open trapped gully, but what happens if you don't have one of those close enough by?

Cheers

Russ


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## wyrickmech

Russell RA Tech said:


> Cheers wyrickmech We don't normally have vacuum relief valves on our systems, I wonder if we either, do not consider a vacuum implosion to be a huge risk, or that the installation methods driven by our regulations mean that there is little risk of a vacuum being formed? However, traditionally, we fit unvented heaters below the taps (i.e. in the base cabinet) and if its mounted above counter, it would have its own vented spout (point of use single outlet). I personally have never seen a small (under 15 litre - 3 gallon) being mounted at high level if it is unvented. As for the iso valves, I suppose as the outlet is connected to a tap there is no real need for a valve as once the unit is isolated upstream on the cold once it is drained down no need for second valve on hot outlet, however I still don't quite understand how a vacuum can be caused at such a high pressure to cause an implosion (are the cylinders not that strong?) How do you mean drain on pan is indirect? Were will it discharge to? I can only think that it would go to over a local open trapped gully, but what happens if you don't have one of those close enough by? Cheers Russ


 the vacuum can cause damage at low vacuum levels like 5 to 10 inches of water column the tank is not designed for the vacuum only pressure. The indirect drain means just that it is a pipe run to a receptor or floor drain. On jobs where a floor mounted mop sink is available I normally just run it there. Open pipe end with no direct connection to the sanitary drainage.


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## Russell RA Tech

So in terms of this type of water heater it would be installed in a semi industrial/commercial application where there is likely to be janitorial type cupboards with sinks and gullys in them?

How about a domestic application?

Russ


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## wyrickmech

Russell RA Tech said:


> So in terms of this type of water heater it would be installed in a semi industrial/commercial application where there is likely to be janitorial type cupboards with sinks and gullys in them? How about a domestic application? Russ


the rules apply in residential to. Water heater is a water heater.


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## Russell RA Tech

Hi wyrick

Ah I think I have miss-explained sorry.

What I meant was, if there was no local open gully or route to outside to discharge what would you do with the discharge coming from the PRV? 

Probably mostly applicable in a domestic situation

Cheers

Russ


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## plbgbiz

For an interior room on slab with no drain and no access to a drain in another room...

We are still required to put the water heater in a pan and terminate the T&P discharge to the pan. I also include a battery operated water alarm on this type of installation.


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## Russell RA Tech

plbgbiz said:


> For an interior room on slab with no drain and no access to a drain in another room...
> 
> We are still required to put the water heater in a pan and terminate the T&P discharge to the pan. I also include a battery operated water alarm on this type of installation.


 And if there is no sensible place to discharge the water from the pan to only a local foul waste or soil pipe what do you do for a trap without it drying out?


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## wyrickmech

Russell RA Tech said:


> And if there is no sensible place to discharge the water from the pan to only a local foul waste or soil pipe what do you do for a trap without it drying out?


trap primer


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## Russell RA Tech

wyrickmech said:


> trap primer


Sorry my bad understanding of US terminology

Can you point me to a "trap primer"

I've never heard of that/those before

I feel like an amature or is that an armature?

Cheers

Russ


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## plbgbiz

Trap Primer: A device or means of piping designed to periodically replenish water that is likely to evaporate from a seldom used p-trap. Most often installed to serve one or more emergency floor drains.

You must have these. It will be interesting to learn what they are called in London.


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## Russell RA Tech

Hi plbgbiz

Maybe we should break this thread off and move it to a separate new thread so we don't accidentally hijack the OP?

Having said that - trap primer

I have never heard or seen let alone fitted one of these babies, so we don't call them by any name in the UK!!

I can see that trap primer is a good name but how much do they cost???? And wow to fit as well, what about a domestic situation do you use them there as well?

Russ


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## wyrickmech

Russell
There is always this alternative. It sets down in the drain and keeps it sealed until water runs and it opens from water weight. Look it up under the web sight of www.trapgaurd.com


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