# Drain people ever heard of this?



## 3KP (Jun 19, 2008)

Went to a customers house today.. They had a well known company in our area come out yesterday and said they can't bring there sewer machine into there house to clean a main drain, Their insurance company will not cover them if damaged accured??? But wanted to charge him $1400.00 to install a clean out in the front yard and snake it. But They felt strongly that the main line is broke and needs to be replaced for $3000.00 (This is with out even attempting to snake it) :yes: I show up today and see that his toilets are back to back so I ran 90ft of cable from the roof vent got the drain open and working good. For a lot less than $1400.00 gained an new customer and possibly will be putting in the clean out next few weeks for them.. 

Have you ever heard of the insurance not covering you for drain cleaning?

All I have to say Thank you ______ Plumbing for the new customer and making your company/or self look like a azz!:yes::thumbup:


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

No, my insurance covers damage which occurs during work. 

Sounds like a big line of BS.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

benjamin franklin, mr. rooter, or roto-rooter?:laughing:


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Will said:


> benjamin franklin, mr. rooter, or roto-rooter?:laughing:


No Irish Plumber?


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

weird


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Mr Rooter, Baker Brothers/cummings plumbing, drain doc in Tucson. Mr rooter was big on "I'll pour our enzyme cleaner down the toilet today if it's not clear by tomorrow you need a new line."


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

I bet the first company has an A+ BBB rating, too.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

ChrisConnor said:


> I bet the first company has an A+ BBB rating, too.



I think they were getting sued by the state hen I left, the 2ndwas started when the /3rd lic was pulled for BS. That's why the get the / Cummings still runs AC heat and maybe plumbing again by now. They run a 1-2 punch deal now, they charge a service call and say call these guys they are the experts.


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## SimplePlumber (Feb 1, 2012)

3KP said:


> Went to a customers house today.. They had a well known company in our area come out yesterday and said they can't bring there sewer machine into there house to clean a main drain, Their insurance company will not cover them if damaged accured??? But wanted to charge him $1400.00 to install a clean out in the front yard and snake it. But They felt strongly that the main line is broke and needs to be replaced for $3000.00 (This is with out even attempting to snake it) :yes: I show up today and see that his toilets are back to back so I ran 90ft of cable from the roof vent got the drain open and working good. For a lot less than $1400.00 gained an new customer and possibly will be putting in the clean out next few weeks for them..
> 
> Have you ever heard of the insurance not covering you for drain cleaning?
> 
> All I have to say Thank you ______ Plumbing for the new customer and making your company/or self look like a azz!:yes::thumbup:


There is always three sides to every story...the two opposing sides and what *actually* happened.

Perhaps the first company showed up and noticed there were b2b toilets and no clean-out and said they couldn't clean out the pipe without one, since their insurance company wouldn't cover them for attempting to clean out a pipe from any orifice not designed to be a clean-out (i.e. roof vent).

A lot of companies (mine included) have found the risks of cabling any drain through a roof vent to not be worth the reward; especially a main line, due to;

-Fall and lifting hazards of employees
-Debris (roots, tp, rags, etc) getting caught in a smaller branch vent while pulling the cable out, causing other issues
-Roof leaks and/or roof material damage from walking on it
-Roof flange leaks from the slapping and feed/return pressures of the cable
-Complications from getting a cable stuck while in the vent
-The very high likelihood the homeowner will *expect* it to be cabled from the vent the next time also, or they will call another company to see if they will; negating the good-will of the person who would do it the first time.

If I were acting as professional witness on behalf of an insurance company who was asking for a professional opinion on a case where an employee used a vent as a clean-out and either damaged the property or themselves...I would have to say (whatever the reason) the employee or company (if it was the companies policy to do so) were negligent.

So while the insurance company "angle" may or may not be a sales pitch, it beats finding out later that they won't pay for any damage or liability.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

I don't know how deep the sewers are in the OP's area, but around here I could singlehandedly install a cleanout in the average line with a shovel in less than 1/2 hour. I'm sorry, but $1400 seems sort of "out there" to me. And to quote a replacement without sticking so much as a cable in the line tells me that they likely have a script book, lots of upsell training, most likely are working on commission, etc.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

If the water closets where back to back and there was no proper clean out, and the home owner wants it done from the roof vent. I explain to them it is not worth it to me to risk going on the roof, due to the following reasons.

Roof may have unseen rot and I can fall through
damage may happen to the roof, flashing, gutters
There is a risk I can fall or get knocked off the roof.
There are more, but you get my drift. After telling them that, I explain I can pull both water closets and attempt to power rod the main. In some cases one water closet is a normal closet ell, and the other is on a tee on its back. But if its a true back to back with a double wye in between the two water closets, I might be able to get it, I might not. Then I give them the option of letting me open the wall and install a clean out on the stack, and put in an access panel. If there is an unfinished basement, I give the option to break open the floor and install a clean out. The final option is to locate the line and install an outside clean out.

So in other words I will do anything in my power to get a main line open except go on a roof.


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## AssTyme (May 15, 2010)

SewerRat said:


> I don't know how deep the sewers are in the OP's area, but around here I could singlehandedly install a cleanout in the average line with a shovel in less than 1/2 hour. I'm sorry, but $1400 seems sort of "out there" to me. And to quote a replacement without sticking so much as a cable in the line tells me that they likely have a script book, lots of upsell training, most likely are working on commission, etc.




You guys don't have basements around your turf ?


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

SewerRat said:


> *the average line*





AssTyme said:


> You guys don't have basements around your turf ?


There are a few basements, which have deep sewers, which I would not be so brazen as to claim that I could perform such a feat as to install a cleanout in one of _those _in 1/2 hour with a shovel laughing, but yes, *the average *sewer in my immediate area is normally 12" to 24" deep. We don't have rocky soil here, there is only one rock in the entire area but it is approximately 40 miles wide by 60 miles long and is as shallow as 12" deep in places in our town, so deep sewers and also basements are out of the question in a lot of cases. 

My wifes family is from Wsss-caaahn-znnn and I can see why to you $1400 might seem like it is right in the ballpark. You gotta get those sewers down deep enough that the heat from earth's molten center can at least keep the bottom half of the line free of ice. :laughing:


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

We clean main and branch lines from the roof vent at least 40% of the time. Knock on wood but have never had a cable get stuck or damaged a roof.
We always write “not responsible for any roof damage” and customer initial before we go the ladder.
This has never been an issue with the customer.
Don’t know if this would hold up in court if damage occurred but will cross that bridge when the time comes.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

SewerRat said:


> I don't know how deep the sewers are in the OP's area, but around here I could singlehandedly install a cleanout in the average line with a shovel in less than 1/2 hour. I'm sorry, but $1400 seems sort of "out there" to me. And to quote a replacement without sticking so much as a cable in the line tells me that they likely have a script book, lots of upsell training, most likely are working on commission, etc.


You forgot the kitchen table, chain, and repeating yourself until they buy...

Here 10-12' deep coming out of a basement the numbers would be a bit more...
But then we'd usually be cabling from a basement cleanout too...

Putting in an outside cleanout would usually be part of a spot repair...


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## Clog Pro (Apr 2, 2012)

SewerRat said:


> I don't know how deep the sewers are in the OP's area, but around here I could singlehandedly install a cleanout in the average line with a shovel in less than 1/2 hour. I'm sorry, but $1400 seems sort of "out there" to me. And to quote a replacement without sticking so much as a cable in the line tells me that they likely have a script book, lots of upsell training, most likely are working on commission, etc.


This seems like the most likely scenario to me too. Good thing the customer called in a second opinion.


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## SimplePlumber (Feb 1, 2012)

SewerRat said:


> I don't know how deep the sewers are in the OP's area, but around here I could singlehandedly install a cleanout in the average line with a shovel in less than 1/2 hour. I'm sorry, but $1400 seems sort of "out there" to me. And to quote a replacement without sticking so much as a cable in the line tells me that they likely have a script book, lots of upsell training, most likely are working on commission, etc.


I agree this is likely the case, except for the price. Places like Seattle have ridiculous permit fees and over-engineered material requirements. It makes a little more sense when you add up the costs below for even a 1' deep install;

Day one:
Permit ($280.00)
Acquiring the permit time
Material (4" SCH 40 PVC solid-core "well casing" pipe)
Pipe bedding ("special" clean-crushed-rock)
Time to install the cleanout and secure site
Cable the line for up to one hour, included in price
Call it in for inspection for the following day

Day two:
Drive back to site
Draw up an as-built (triangulate the building corners and location of the cleanout off the center line of the closest City Sewer Manhole cover)
Meet the inspector
Back-fill and cleanup

So the minimum I would install a cleanout there for was $1,275.00 plus tax.

Kind of silly that the permit is close to 1/4 of the entire cost of the job.


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## SimplePlumber (Feb 1, 2012)

HSI said:


> We clean main and branch lines from the roof vent at least 40% of the time. Knock on wood but have never had a cable get stuck or damaged a roof.
> We always write “not responsible for any roof damage” and customer initial before we go the ladder.
> This has never been an issue with the customer.
> Don’t know if this would hold up in court if damage occurred but will cross that bridge when the time comes.


There are lots of companies that are fine with the risks.

Everything is always fine until something actually happens.

I feel this is one of those instances where the contractor (vent-cabling ones) makes the customers problem (lack of a cleanout) theirs.

The fear of losing the customer or the attempt to "save" the customer a few dollars overshadows the safety of employees. Even if one employee falls every five years...you could be bankrupt that one time if they sue and win. (If they are paralyzed, they will have to sue to survive).

I am going out on a limb here to say that 98% of plumbing contractors and drain cleaners do not have approved fall protection gear and training in place to support their argument in a fall lawsuit.

Why gamble *your* safety for the *customers* benefit....

What do *you* gain out of doing it?


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## Joeypipes 23 (Feb 2, 2011)

Maybe its just here, but don't you guys snake from the vents on the.house traps?


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## jtink (Apr 23, 2012)

I agree with simple plumber. Where is the benefit for you to risk injury. I would suggest install cleanout in yard for full size cutter or second option cleanout in basement ( if they have one ) doesn't sound like they have one. As far as the price a lot of things to consider -depth, is a big one rental of equipment or hiring an excavator, trench box etc.....


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## switch045 (Jan 25, 2012)

sounds like a roto R scam.



3KP said:


> Went to a customers house today.. They had a well known company in our area come out yesterday and said they can't bring there sewer machine into there house to clean a main drain, Their insurance company will not cover them if damaged accured??? But wanted to charge him $1400.00 to install a clean out in the front yard and snake it. But They felt strongly that the main line is broke and needs to be replaced for $3000.00 (This is with out even attempting to snake it) :yes: I show up today and see that his toilets are back to back so I ran 90ft of cable from the roof vent got the drain open and working good. For a lot less than $1400.00 gained an new customer and possibly will be putting in the clean out next few weeks for them..
> 
> Have you ever heard of the insurance not covering you for drain cleaning?
> 
> All I have to say Thank you ______ Plumbing for the new customer and making your company/or self look like a azz!:yes::thumbup:


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

All of our mains are atleast 8' deep, and we never see a c/o outside the home (it would probably freeze) that would be different


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Catlin987987 said:


> All of our mains are atleast 8' deep, and we never see a c/o outside the home (it would probably freeze) that would be different


 Never seen a cleanout freeze in any depth of sewer..


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Joeypipes 23 said:


> Maybe its just here, but don't you guys snake from the vents on the.house traps?


 






I know in NYC there alot of housetraps. But where I am, they are prohibited by code.


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## Joeypipes 23 (Feb 2, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> I know in NYC there alot of housetraps. But where I am, they are prohibited by code.


Whys that


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

Just pull off one tank open wall run through vent patch wall reinstall tank say they need a clean out


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

There is no motivation for me for try a clear a mainline from the roof.

If no cleanout, toilet gets pulled. I can at least send 3" cutters through the closet bend. Can't do that through the 2" roof vent. We charge enough to make it worth our while and to motivate the client to install a cleanout in the future.

I've never used a sectional machine, so no way I'm lugging my GO 62 up a ladder.


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

Joeypipes 23 said:


> Whys that


There even illegal in alot of Canada


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Joeypipes 23 said:


> Whys that


Also if its shallow in and above frost line, then there's a good chance it'll freeze.


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## Joeypipes 23 (Feb 2, 2011)

I guess its a matter of depth then our sewers are relatively low down in basements I'd say majority are below basement grade...and regarding roofs...theres no way in hell I'd drag my Spartan 300 nor any sewer machine up to a roof...that practice isn't done here in NYC...I guess were lucky then to have housetraps accessible


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Joeypipes 23 said:


> I guess its a matter of depth then our sewers are relatively low down in basements I'd say majority are below basement grade...and regarding roofs...theres no way in hell I'd drag my Spartan 300 nor any sewer machine up to a roof...that practice isn't done here in NYC...I guess were lucky then to have housetraps accessible


 Older homes, sewer below basement grade, newer home, around here, all sewer must overhead.


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## Sewer Saint (May 5, 2012)

I rarely deal with residential lines but I will never run a cable through a roof stack, too much of a risk. Those residential lines which I had to work through will get hydro-jetted instead if I have to go through a vent stack. Much less of a risk and if there is any water damage their house insurance will cover it, besides I get kickbacks from water restoration companies like Royal in those cases.

Now if it is a hydro jet, you are paying at least $650 baseline with add-ons per stack and hours it takes me to do it.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Cable through a roof vent?

Good Gawd! Be my guest! 
I'll be at the cleanout or they are getting one.... :yes:

I'll leave that rooftop stuff to you flatlanders with the single story slab on grade houses, in places where it doesn't snow so the roofs are just about flat...

Even then I'd be tempted to grab a shovel and spend about 1/2 an hour putting one in....


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## Dsm (Nov 27, 2011)

Joeypipes 23 said:


> Whys that


The main reason we don't have house traps in Canada (besides that it is against code) is for venting reasons. With a house trap the main sewer gases have no proper place to escape other than manholes. The ideal location for sewer gases is up high and far away from people's noses.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Dsm said:


> The main reason we don't have house traps in Canada (besides that it is against code) is for venting reasons. With a house trap the main sewer gases have no proper place to escape other than manholes. The ideal location for sewer gases is up high and far away from people's noses.


And if you're vent through the roof gets clogged now the hole "main" sewer is trying to vent through your traps. I can assure you that the method of having a house trap, fresh air Inlet and vent thru roof Does Not cause manholes to stink up the neighborhood! 

I don't believe that your manholes don't have holes in them! And if they do are you under the impression that it is for fresh air to enter the system?


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Chicago manholes have holes in them, well they are storm sewer grates. Reason is Most of Chicago is still a combination sewer system. As for running traps on a sewer, never came across them in Chicago. But I have seen many in the burbs of Cook county. Like La Grange, most are out in the parkway around 5 to 7 feet deep, they used to have vents but got buried over the years. These homes where built in the late 1800's and early 1900's. 

Now go further west into Du Page county, only seen them in some really old 1800's homes in Villa Park. Lets go further west though to the city of Elgin, they have them in the basements of the older homes and vented to the outside wall. First time I came across that in Elgin, I was stuck on the job for a while, not knowing about the 4" house trap that was buried under a pile of rubbish. When I walked around the house I saw this weird bell shaped cover sticking out of the foundation wall, and it hit me a house trap.


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