# Plumbers and Drain Cleaners



## TheDrainGuy (Jan 1, 2014)

nhmaster3015 said:


> between the company, teaching high school, teaching apprentice school, teaching re-cert classes and all the damn workshops I have to attend I often wonder why I bother being here at all but... I love the trade.


Hey big shot. I'll tell you why you come here. Because you can't run you're mouth the way you do here in "the real world." People wouldn't tolerate it. You think people want to hear you're save the trade rants? And "brotherhood" among plumbers? That's only in the union pal. And to them... If you're not union, you're a scab. 
And as far as success goes Mr. state inspector turned school teacher, not sure how you measure it. If its running a company, teaching high school, teaching apprentice school, teaching re-cert classes and all the damn workshops you attend, well good for you. Not much time to "have a life"
I have a beautiful wife and son. My wife and I both have our own business and she's also a big help with mine. A house in Boston and a summer home in ossipee. All kinds of other crap that means nothing. And guess what, I'm a drain cleaner, I DID IT WITHOUT A LICENSE...
Some of my BEST friends are master plumbers.
A good percent of my work come directly from them. I refer THEM to customers of mine that may ask me or need plumbing work done.
The thing that deterred me from pursuing a plumbing license is I could NOT survive on apprentice wages. If I got into it in High school when I was living with Ma & dad I would have.
A guy in his mid twenties can't survive on 10-12$ an hr. Doing drains back then I was making around $1000.00 wk.
Good luck with you're mission to save the human plumbing race


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## PlumbDumber (Aug 7, 2013)

TheDrainGuy said:


> nhmaster3015 said:
> 
> 
> > between the company, teaching high school, teaching apprentice school, teaching re-cert classes and all the damn workshops I have to attend I often wonder why I bother being here at all but... I love the trade.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

TheDrainGuy said:


> Hey big shot. I'll tell you why you come here. Because you can't run you're mouth the way you do here in "the real world." People wouldn't tolerate it. You think people want to hear you're save the trade rants? And "brotherhood" among plumbers? That's only in the union pal. And to them... If you're not union, you're a scab.
> And as far as success goes Mr. state inspector turned school teacher, not sure how you measure it. If its running a company, teaching high school, teaching apprentice school, teaching re-cert classes and all the damn workshops you attend, well good for you. Not much time to "have a life"
> I have a beautiful wife and son. My wife and I both have our own business and she's also a big help with mine. A house in Boston and a summer home in ossipee. All kinds of other crap that means nothing. And guess what, I'm a drain cleaner, I DID IT WITHOUT A LICENSE...
> Some of my BEST friends are master plumbers.
> ...



The drain cleaner guys, they get so angry. I think its frustrations and regrets. 

Here's the difference. I can do my trade and your job too. You can only...clean drains.
Unfortunately, since you are not a plumber I am going to have to dismiss your commentary as being irrelevant to the conversation at hand. The thing that detered you from geting a plumbing license was the lack of a spine. You took the easy road.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

TheDrainGuy said:


> ...The thing that deterred me from pursuing a plumbing license is I *could NOT* survive on apprentice wages. If I got into it in High school when I was living with Ma & dad I would have.
> A guy in his mid twenties *can't* survive on 10-12$ an hr. Doing drains back then I was making around $1000.00 wk....


With all due respect (there's that word again :laughing: ) to your skills and success, it was your choice to not make it on $10-$12hr...not your mandate.

I started and served most of my apprenticeship working for a couple dollars over minimum wage. My wife was ill and could not work. My son was in his early teens. I worked two jobs and we made sacrifices for a few years to get past those tough times.

There is nothing a healthy man in his mid twenties cannot do, when he sets his mind to doing it.

You, like all of us, chose to be where you are.


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## TheDrainGuy (Jan 1, 2014)

nhmaster3015 said:


> The drain cleaner guys, they get so angry. I think its frustrations and regrets.  Here's the difference. I can do my trade and your job too. You can only...clean drains. Unfortunately, since you are not a plumber I am going to have to dismiss your commentary as being irrelevant to the conversation at hand. The thing that detered you from geting a plumbing license was the lack of a spine. You took the easy road.


Not angry, just telling it like it is.


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

nhmaster3015 said:


> The drain cleaner guys, they get so angry. I think its frustrations and regrets.  Here's the difference. I can do my trade and your job too. You can only...clean drains. Unfortunately, since you are not a plumber I am going to have to dismiss your commentary as being irrelevant to the conversation at hand. The thing that detered you from geting a plumbing license was the lack of a spine. You took the easy road.


 Easy road? That's funny. Ignorance is bliss I suppose. In any case I have two points. First, I make a ton of money just cleaning drains. Second, you probably can't do my job,at least not at the level that I can.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

you're kidding right? we run two vans for drains, we clean residential and commercial, jetter trailer yadda yadda. every single plumber in my shop is licensed as a plumber. i have never and will never hire anyone just to clean drains no matter how good he is because he's a one trick pony. you can make a ton of money selling crack too, whats your*point? hey, i respect that you are good at what you do as i respect anyone that works for a living but.....you ain't a plumber :thumbsup:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> you're kidding right? we run two vans for drains, we clean residential and commercial, jetter trailer yadda yadda. every single plumber in my shop is licensed as a plumber. i have never and will never hire anyone just to clean drains no matter how good he is because he's a one trick pony. you can make a ton of money selling crack too, whats your*point? hey, i respect that you are good at what you do as i respect anyone that works for a living but.....you ain't a plumber :thumbsup:


He didn't assert that he was a plumber. He didn't say that your shop doesn't offer drain cleaning.

Just maybe he is an excellent drain cleaner. Maybe he has mastered his craft. There is no shame when you are the best at what you do.

Not all plumbers are masters, and not all plumbers are good at what they do.

Why does it have to turn into us against them?


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Drain Pro said:


> Easy road? That's funny. Ignorance is bliss I suppose. In any case I have two points. First, I make a ton of money just cleaning drains. Second, you probably can't do my job,at least not at the level that I can.


 your argument is flawed. One a plumber can make a lot of money. Two we can do your job but you can't do ours. So that being said I think this argument is closed.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

wyrickmech said:


> your argument is flawed. One a plumber can make a lot of money. Two we can do your job but you can't do ours. So that being said I think this argument is closed.


Isn't your argument flawed? Drain cleaners can make a lot of money too!

Plumbers can legally clean drains, but that doesn't mean they are good at it. 

In many areas a drain cleaner working in a plumbing shop, where only one Master license is required, is permitted to do plumbing.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Phat Cat said:


> Isn't your argument flawed? Drain cleaners can make a lot of money too! Plumbers can legally clean drains, but that doesn't mean they are good at it. In many areas a drain cleaner working in a plumbing shop, where only one Master license is required, is permitted to do plumbing.


 yes under the supervision of the master. It still is a stupid argument.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

wyrickmech said:


> yes under the supervision of the master. It still is a stupid argument.



I think all arguments are stupid. In my opinion, it's better to agree to disagree with mutual respect still intact. )


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I have no problem with drain cleaners or his ability to make money but lots of folks make good money, the whole point here is that he isn't a plumber. When he says I can't do his job as well as he can? Really? I can most likely do it better because I'm the guy that installed it in the 1st place.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Phat Cat said:


> Isn't your argument flawed? Drain cleaners can make a lot of money too!
> 
> Plumbers can legally clean drains, but that doesn't mean they are good at it.
> 
> In many areas a drain cleaner working in a plumbing shop, where only one Master license is required, is permitted to do plumbing.


Business owners can own a business but that doesn't mean they are good at that either.

Where is a drain cleaner, unlicensed, allowed to plumb?


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

And maybe I could be a plumber or was one at one time but I choose to do only drains because I feel it's more lucrative. But that's only a maybe


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

wyrickmech said:


> your argument is flawed. One a plumber can make a lot of money. Two we can do your job but you can't do ours. So that being said I think this argument is closed.


But the thing is most of you can't do my job. And the few that can certainly can't do it to my level. It's a real shame that someone who is licensed to install drains can't service them.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Drain Pro said:


> But the thing is most of you can't do my job. And the few that can certainly can't do it to my level. It's a real shame that someone who is licensed to install drains can't service them.



You're a drain cleaner , NOT A LICENSED PLUMBER. I do both and all my plumbers do both with jetters and sewer machines . Drain cleaning isn't that hard if you have the proper equipment and know how to use it. It's even easier if you understand the plumbing system by having the knowledge of how it is put it in which LICENSED PLUMBERS DO. As for doing it at your level, get a license and then we can talk about levels . You want to borrow one of my license?


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Drain Pro said:


> But the thing is most of you can't do my job. And the few that can certainly can't do it to my level. It's a real shame that someone who is licensed to install drains can't service them.


back the f### up .you may be mildly addiquite at your job but if you don't bring that nose down a little you will drowning in the next rainstorm. The fact is I can do your job but you are not even close to being qualified to do mine. You sound like a half way intelligent person so I would suggest to become a apprentice plumber under a journeyman and learn. Why would you want to limit your income by just cleaning drains? Learn the whole trade not the easy part.


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

justme said:


> You're a drain cleaner , NOT A LICENSED PLUMBER. I do both and all my plumbers do both with jetters and sewer machines . Drain cleaning isn't that hard if you have the proper equipment and know how to use it. It's even easier if you understand the plumbing system by having the knowledge of how it is put it in which LICENSED PLUMBERS DO. As for doing it at your level, get a license and then we can talk about levels . You want to borrow one of my license?


I've made fools of licensed guys time and time again. I'm sure I'll continue to do so in the future. We laugh at you guys around here, you had all the answers for your test but not an ounce of common sense when it comes to drain cleaning. Not all of you, just most. Anyway I've wasted enough time arguing with you over this. It's really beneath me to discuss drain cleaning with a "licensed" plumber. I'll move on now.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Drain Pro said:


> But the thing is most of you can't do my job. And the few that can certainly can't do it to my level. It's a real shame that someone who is licensed to install drains can't service them.


I concur. First plumbing company I worked for had a new commercial division, and a residential service division. Approximately 20 employees and drain cleaning was subbed out. Not one was a drain cleaner. 

Fast forward, hired a Master Plumber who said he could clear drains too! The cable machine begs to differ. One too many bound / kinked cables to call himself a drain cleaner.

More power to the ones who can do both, and are experts at both. 

To suggest a licensed plumber is well-rounded, that is nonsense. I've interviewed enough of them to know. 

I'm great at running pipe. 

I did mostly top outs.

I've never done repair work. 

I can't read blueprints. 

I've only done rough-ins.

I only know commercial. 

I only do renovations.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> back the f### up .you may be mildly addiquite at your job but if you don't bring that nose down a little you will drowning in the next rainstorm. The fact is I can do your job but you are not even close to being qualified to do mine. You sound like a half way intelligent person so I would suggest to become a apprentice plumber under a journeyman and learn. Why would you want to limit your income by just cleaning drains? Learn the whole trade not the easy part.


A better name for this guy would be blow bag.:laughing:


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Phat Cat said:


> I concur. First plumbing company I worked for had a new commercial division, and a residential service division. Approximately 20 employees and drain cleaning was subbed out. Not one was a drain cleaner.
> 
> Fast forward, hired a Master Plumber who said he could clear drains too! The cable machine begs to differ. One too many bound / kinked cables to call himself a drain cleaner.
> 
> ...



I don't know what state you live in , might be time to move to a state with real licensed plumbers.:yes:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

justme said:


> A better name for this guy would be blow bag.:laughing:


Because we all know that name calling is professional.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

I'm a liensced plumber and I can do drain cleaning.. so I'm still beaneath you, drain pro?? Go piss up a rope.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

justme said:


> I don't know what state you live in , might be time to move to a state with real licensed plumbers.:yes:


Baltimore, Maryland.

There are real, well-rounded licensed plumbers. And, there are many one trick ponies.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Phat Cat said:


> Because we all know that name calling is professional.


Has nothing to do with professional , has everything to do with drain cleaning.:yes:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

justme said:


> Has nothing to do with professional , has everything to do with drain cleaning.:yes:


I respect both professions, and I do respect the fact that both take skill.


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> I'm a liensced plumber and I can do drain cleaning.. so I'm still beaneath you, drain pro?? Go piss up a rope.


This is exactly what I'm talking about. As a licensed plumber you should know that pissing up a rope doesn't work. Gravity my friend!


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Phat Cat said:


> Baltimore, Maryland.
> 
> There are real, well-rounded licensed plumbers. And, there are many one trick ponies.


Personally I would NEVER call a licensed plumber a one trick pony, because they might have never been given the opportunity to learn drain cleaning. On the other hand a Drain Cleaner would definitely deserve to be called a one trick pony.:yes:


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Phat Cat said:


> I concur. First plumbing company I worked for had a new commercial division, and a residential service division. Approximately 20 employees and drain cleaning was subbed out. Not one was a drain cleaner. Fast forward, hired a Master Plumber who said he could clear drains too! The cable machine begs to differ. One too many bound / kinked cables to call himself a drain cleaner. More power to the ones who can do both, and are experts at both. To suggest a licensed plumber is well-rounded, that is nonsense. I've interviewed enough of them to know. I'm great at running pipe. I did mostly top outs. I've never done repair work. I can't read blueprints. I've only done rough-ins. I only know commercial. I only do renovations.


 there is places in this world that allow plumbers to just do part of there job but it's not here. We all start on small stuff and work our way up. I started on houses ground works to finish never was allowed to leave something that wasn't done. Went from that to service truck and yes sewer calls learned that. Then it off to light commercial. Again every step was from sewer tap to the vent threw the roof and all fixtures set. I still at that time would get called out on sewer calls. Then running work started out on small schools and small commercial . Still I would get sewer calls. Then it was hospital work running crews of 30 plumbers. Then it got really tuff before the crash I was running 18 jobs and work at a hospital. So in conclusion I would say my predecessors set me up to be a well rounded plumber. Still getting sewer calls.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

wyrickmech said:


> there is places in this world that allow plumbers to just do part of there job but it's not here. We all start on small stuff and work our way up. I started on houses ground works to finish never was allowed to leave something that wasn't done. Went from that to service truck and yes sewer calls learned that. Then it off to light commercial. Again every step was from sewer tap to the vent threw the roof and all fixtures set. I still at that time would get called out on sewer calls. Then running work started out on small schools and small commercial . Still I would get sewer calls. Then it was hospital work running crews of 30 plumbers. Then it got really tuff before the crash I was running 18 jobs and work at a hospital. So in conclusion I would say my predecessors set me up to be a well rounded plumber. Still getting sewer calls.


In a perfect world, every plumber would be well rounded. However, that is just not the case. Actually experience makes all the difference in the world.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

justme said:


> Personally I would NEVER call a licensed plumber a one trick pony, because they might have never been given the opportunity to learn drain cleaning. On the other hand a Drain Cleaner would definitely deserve to be called a one trick pony.:yes:


Note that neither of the two arguing are plumbers :laughing:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Moved.

This REALLY deserves its own thread.


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

I didn't mean to paint all plumbers with such a broad brush. I do recognize that I can not do certain things as well as some plumbers. Some of you guys are truly talented. What I will not tolerate in any form is an arrogant licensed plumber trying to undermine my particular aspect of plumbing, which is drain cleaning. I myself, am going to sound arrogant here but I don't care. I am great at what I do. I take pride in being a total professional. I'm knowledgeable, fair, honest, and more than competent. I am not a plumber but that doesn't mean that I can't be one either ( in certain situations). I know drains like the back of my hand and I've done plumbing repairs on drain lines, many times in fact. When I do, my work is neat, professional, and most importantly done correctly. I have butted heads with licensed plumbers many times and when all was said and done I have never once been proven wrong, never once. Maybe it's a regional thing, I'm not sure. Most licensed plumbers around here want nothing to do with drains and most are not very good at them. I know more than a few who will admit to that as well. I, on the other hand, want nothing to do with plumbing. However, I will do whatever it takes to clear a stoppage. For instance, I recently had a tub stoppage in an old apartment building. The weight from the trip lever was stuck in the overflow and no matter what I tried, I just couldn't get it out. I'm not leaving the tub clogged so I replaced the tub waste. I'm not a licensed plumber but I've done this many times before. The end result was a job well done and a very satisfied customer. In the end I have total respect for anyone who takes pride in their trade. All I ask is for the same in return. But any plumber who dismisses me for being a lowly drain guy does so with great ignorance.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

meh...


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## luv2plum (May 16, 2012)

Drain Pro said:


> I didn't mean to paint all plumbers with such a broad brush. I do recognize that I can not do certain things as well as some plumbers. Some of you guys are truly talented. What I will not tolerate in any form is an arrogant licensed plumber trying to undermine my particular aspect of plumbing, which is drain cleaning. I'm going to sound arrogant here but I don't care. I am great at what I do. I take pride in being a total professional. I'm knowledgeable, fair, honest, and more than competent. I am not a plumber but that doesn't mean that I can't be one either. I know drains like the back of my hand and I've done plumbing repairs on lines. When I do, my work is neat, professional, and most importantly done correctly. I have butted heads with licensed plumbers many time and when all was said and done I have never once been proven wrong, never once. Maybe it's a regional thing, I'm not sure. Most licensed plumbers around here want nothing to do with drains and most are not very good at them. I know more than a few who will admit to that as well. I, on the other hand, want nothing to do with plumbing. However, I will do whatever it takes to clear a stoppage. For instance, I recently had a tub stoppage in an old apartment building. The weight from the trip lever was stuck in the overflow and no matter what I tried, I just couldn't get it out. I'm not leaving the tub clogged so I replaced the tub waste. I'm not a licensed plumber but I've done this many times before. The end result was a job well done and a very satisfied customer. In the end I have total respect for anyone who takes pride in their trade. All I ask is for the same in return. But any plumber who dismisses me for being a lowly drain guy does so with great ignorance.


Drain Pro, it may be true that you are better at, more efficient at and more professional than the vast majority of licensed plumbers at cleaning drains, and I will not take that away from you. Your profession is a specialty area that requires skill and years of experience to hone your craft. However, once you veer outside of your area of expertise is when licensed plumbers get agitated. You mention that you do "plumbing repairs on lines" and you have no reservations about replacing sections of the plumbing system such as tub waste and overflow kits. You now are doing plumber's work, which, first of all, requires a license by law, and second, may put your customers at risk. Let's say you do a drain repair on the 30th floor of an apartment that fails for one reason or another (the best of us can have a leak happen on occasion), and 30 stories of apartments now have water damage. Will your insurance cover your unlicensed plumbing repair? It may have been done with the skill and competence of the best plumber in the world, but the point is that you do not own that license and therefore are not "legally" qualified or covered. Now your customer is on the hook. If you had a license, you may have still had a leak, but the consumer would be protected via your insurance. As plumbers, our license does legally cover drain cleaning, so our customers are protected if we mess up when cleaning a drain. The AHJ has determined that we are qualified enough to clean a drain and be covered by insurance. 

However.........a plumber without an electrical license that hooks up the power to an electric water heater, or a plumber that re-connects the gas to a replacement gas water heater is just as guilty. 

The point is, many of us work outside of our areas of expertise on stuff that "is just simple stuff", and we may be able to do these tasks with great skill, but for the sake of liability and consumer protection, should know when to call in those qualified for the job.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

luv2plum said:


> However.........a plumber without an electrical license that hooks up the power to an electric water heater, *or a plumber that re-connects the gas to a replacement gas water heater is just as guilty.*
> 
> The point is, many of us work outside of our areas of expertise on stuff that "is just simple stuff", and we may be able to do these tasks with great skill, but for the sake of liability and consumer protection, should know when to call in those qualified for the job.


Uhmmm... hooking up gas to a water heater? Are you trying to tell us gas lines are not a plumbers job? Cause the last time I looked Plumbers are the only ones that are licensed to run gas pipe.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> Uhmmm... hooking up gas to a water heater? Are you trying to tell us gas lines are not a plumbers job? Cause the last time I looked Plumbers are the only ones that are licensed to run gas pipe.


For that matter we are allowed to do a direct hookup to an electric water heater. If the old connection is there like on a swap out.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> For that matter we are allowed to do a direct hookup to an electric water heater. If the old connection is there like on a swap out.


I never trust the prior installer of anything electric be it a water heater, garbage disposal, or even a dishwasher. So I tell the customers they need to hire an electrician to disconnect the old appliance and hook it back up. 

I have some electrical experience to know if it is right or not, but I do not want the liability.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Drain Pro said:


> I didn't mean to paint all plumbers with such a broad brush. I do recognize that I can not do certain things as well as some plumbers. Some of you guys are truly talented. What I will not tolerate in any form is an arrogant licensed plumber trying to undermine my particular aspect of plumbing, which is drain cleaning. I myself, am going to sound arrogant here but I don't care. I am great at what I do. I take pride in being a total professional. I'm knowledgeable, fair, honest, and more than competent. I am not a plumber but that doesn't mean that I can't be one either ( in certain situations). I know drains like the back of my hand and I've done plumbing repairs on drain lines, many times in fact. When I do, my work is neat, professional, and most importantly done correctly. I have butted heads with licensed plumbers many times and when all was said and done I have never once been proven wrong, never once. Maybe it's a regional thing, I'm not sure. Most licensed plumbers around here want nothing to do with drains and most are not very good at them. I know more than a few who will admit to that as well. I, on the other hand, want nothing to do with plumbing. However, I will do whatever it takes to clear a stoppage. For instance, I recently had a tub stoppage in an old apartment building. The weight from the trip lever was stuck in the overflow and no matter what I tried, I just couldn't get it out. I'm not leaving the tub clogged so I replaced the tub waste. I'm not a licensed plumber but I've done this many times before. The end result was a job well done and a very satisfied customer. In the end I have total respect for anyone who takes pride in their trade. All I ask is for the same in return. But any plumber who dismisses me for being a lowly drain guy does so with great ignorance.


Here is where I have the problem with drain cleaners only. This is why drain cleaning should require a plumbing license. You just admitted to doing illegal plumbing work. Around here most of those old tub drains are on drum traps. The letter of the code states if you alter it, it must be up to code. Means the drum trap has to go. Are you going to do that too? What about if the line you're rodding pops a whole in it? Are you going to change that. 

Yeah it usually seems like a simple repair, but your insurance won't cover any damage caused by doing work you aren't qualified to do. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. You don't know what you don't know. It takes 8 years to get a masters here. Our code book is thousands of pages thick. Having that card in your wallet might not mean much to you, but to mean it means I've proven twice that I possess the knowledge to install plumbing. Once for my journeymans and once for your masters. 

I wish guys like you could write the masters test. Then when the results come back the abysmal failure that I'm sure they would, you could stick to doing drains.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> I never trust the prior installer of anything electric be it a water heater, garbage disposal, or even a dishwasher. So I tell the customers they need to hire an electrician to disconnect the old appliance and hook it back up. I have some electrical experience to know if it is right or not, but I do not want the liability.


I know enough to know if it's safe and right. If it looks good ill hook it back up. If it's questionable I turf it to the electrician.


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## luv2plum (May 16, 2012)

SewerRatz said:


> Uhmmm... hooking up gas to a water heater? Are you trying to tell us gas lines are not a plumbers job? Cause the last time I looked Plumbers are the only ones that are licensed to run gas pipe.


Might be a regional thing I guess. In Ontario a plumber is not licensed to touch gas lines without a gas certification. Same with electrical, technically without an electrical license and ESA cert., a plumber technically cannot hook up wiring to an electric water heater, even if it's just a swap out. 
Either way, these are just used as examples to make the point.


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

RW Plumbing said:


> Here is where I have the problem with drain cleaners only. This is why drain cleaning should require a plumbing license. You just admitted to doing illegal plumbing work. Around here most of those old tub drains are on drum traps. The letter of the code states if you alter it, it must be up to code. Means the drum trap has to go. Are you going to do that too? What about if the line you're rodding pops a whole in it? Are you going to change that. Yeah it usually seems like a simple repair, but your insurance won't cover any damage caused by doing work you aren't qualified to do. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. You don't know what you don't know. It takes 8 years to get a masters here. Our code book is thousands of pages thick. Having that card in your wallet might not mean much to you, but to mean it means I've proven twice that I possess the knowledge to install plumbing. Once for my journeymans and once for your masters. I wish guys like you could write the masters test. Then when the results come back the abysmal failure that I'm sure they would, you could stick to doing drains.


Almost 24 years in now and so far a very successful career. Part of that time was as a plumber for one of the oldest, most respected, and high end licensed plumbing companies in NYC. If the licensed plumber was comfortable with me working under his license then I'd say I'm competent. Along with the nearly 40 other plumbers working for that company, so of whom are amazing plumbers ( none of which hold a license). This is how plumbing gets done in the biggest city in the world. Unlicensed guys working for a licensed company. Some of you guys take yourselves way too seriously.


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## Plumbducky (Jun 12, 2010)

Here is my take on this.

I wish all plumbers were well rounded, but that is not the case. Around here I would say on 5% are well rounded. Well rounded being well versed in all aspects of plumbing. I started out doing residential new construction and then went to service in residential, then commercial service and remodeling. Finally went into drain cleaning.

Where I lack is in commercial construction and remodeling.

I really want to just do drain cleaning, but that is just not possible since plumbing and drain cleaning go hand in hand.

BTW I am a master plumber with 15+ years in this trade.


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

In Jersey, we are not allowed to hook up the wiring for elec heaters. Only low voltage.


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

If more plumbers did drain cleaning we wouldn't have to deal with screwed up clean out locations and back to back drain hook ups that make a simple sink call into a two hour ordeal on a daily basis. Even the few plumbers in my area who offer drain cleaning call a few times a year when in over their head. Everyone has their specialty, I'm not going to knock anyone's specialty but at the same time nothing anyone says on here will change my opinion that drain cleaning when done properly (50k worth of equipment rolling up on every job and maid like clean up service when the job is done) is nearly a separate trade. I can say without a doubt that if you put me in front of any clogged drain 3" or smaller and give me one hour I will have it working, 3" and above give me two hours max. I'll bet a weeks profits on that, show me a licensed plumber who will take that challenge.


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

In the interest of stopping a long debate I'll end this with one statement: Drain cleaners get the best tools and the ladies love us. What woman doesn't like a man covered in splatter marks of sludge


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Drain Pro said:


> Almost 24 years in now and so far a very successful career. Part of that time was as a plumber for one of the oldest, most respected, and high end licensed plumbing companies in NYC. If the licensed plumber was comfortable with me working under his license then I'd say I'm competent. Along with the nearly 40 other plumbers working for that company, so of whom are amazing plumbers ( none of which hold a license). This is how plumbing gets done in the biggest city in the world. Unlicensed guys working for a licensed company. Some of you guys take yourselves way too seriously.


 here we have a two to one ratio one license plumber to two registered apprentice no more than that or they red flag you. I do believe that the most respected plumbing company in any city would have a more balanced ratio or they would be called a fly by night bunch.


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

wyrickmech said:


> here we have a two to one ratio one license plumber to two registered apprentice no more than that or they red flag you. I do believe that the most respected plumbing company in any city would have a more balanced ratio or they would be called a fly by night bunch.


 They are certainly not a fly by night bunch. They've been around since 1932 and do some real high end stuff. Everything from service, million dollar renovations, to sprinklers. Best company I ever worked for and the best plumbing company in NYC, IMO. They don't tolerate butchers and they pay real well. If you're not up to there standards they'll get rid of you fast.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Unclog1776 said:


> If more plumbers did drain cleaning we wouldn't have to deal with screwed up clean out locations and back to back drain hook ups that make a simple sink call into a two hour ordeal on a daily basis. Even the few plumbers in my area who offer drain cleaning call a few times a year when in over their head. Everyone has their specialty, I'm not going to knock anyone's specialty but at the same time nothing anyone says on here will change my opinion that drain cleaning when done properly (50k worth of equipment rolling up on every job and maid like clean up service when the job is done) is nearly a separate trade. I can say without a doubt that if you put me in front of any clogged drain 3" or smaller and give me one hour I will have it working, 3" and above give me two hours max. I'll bet a weeks profits on that, show me a licensed plumber who will take that challenge.


 I'd take that bet if I was careless. I can drain clean with the best, and plumb with the best. But I never go into a blockage with a stop watch, I go into them to find a solution. Wether that be by rodding the line or repairing the problem. Clearing a line as fast as I can has never been my objective


Around here gas is a Plumbers responsibly


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

It's not about doing it as fast as you can. It's about having the skill and equipment to be able to fully clean the line that quickly. There are plumbers everywhere who are great drain cleaners but I also see the aftermath (and usually gain a customer) several times a year when another plumber thinks he can invest a bunch of money and become a drain cleaner just because he knows how plumbing is installed.

Not to re hash an old argument but I saw your clean out install that sparked several pages worth of you defending a death trap of a ditch. If that's plumbing with the best I'm happy to not be a licensed plumber


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Unclog1776 said:


> If more plumbers did drain cleaning we wouldn't have to deal with screwed up clean out locations and back to back drain hook ups that make a simple sink call into a two hour ordeal on a daily basis. Even the few plumbers in my area who offer drain cleaning call a few times a year when in over their head. Everyone has their specialty, I'm not going to knock anyone's specialty but at the same time nothing anyone says on here will change my opinion that drain cleaning when done properly (50k worth of equipment rolling up on every job and maid like clean up service when the job is done) is nearly a separate trade. I can say without a doubt that if you put me in front of any clogged drain 3" or smaller and give me one hour I will have it working, 3" and above give me two hours max. I'll bet a weeks profits on that, show me a licensed plumber who will take that challenge.


Where are you at, I got a drain or two in mind and I would like to collect your profit!
That is a fools bet for sure!


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

deerslayer said:


> Where are you at, I got a drain or two in mind and I would like to collect your profit! That is a fools bet for sure!


100 foot max for an hour or less and accessible clean out  In central Illinois


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Unclog1776 said:


> ...
> Not to re hash an old argument but I saw your clean out install that sparked several pages worth of you defending a death trap of a ditch. If that's plumbing with the best I'm happy to not be a licensed plumber


:laughing:

Boy, you ain't seen nothing if that lil hole was a death trap....:laughing:


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

8 foot deep kills just as fast as 100 foot down and both should be dug with the same regards to safety


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## PlumbDumber (Aug 7, 2013)

Drain Pro said:


> I didn't mean to paint all plumbers with such a broad brush. I do recognize that I can not do certain things as well as some plumbers. Some of you guys are truly talented. What I will not tolerate in any form is an arrogant licensed plumber trying to undermine my particular aspect of plumbing, which is drain cleaning. *I myself, am going to sound arrogant here but I don't care.* I am great at what I do. I take pride in being a total professional. I'm knowledgeable, fair, honest, and more than competent. I am not a plumber but that doesn't mean that I can't be one either ( in certain situations). *I know drains like the back of my hand and I've done plumbing repairs on drain lines, many times in fact.* When I do, my work is neat, professional, and most importantly done correctly. I have butted heads with licensed plumbers many times and when all was said and done I have never once been proven wrong, never once. Maybe it's a regional thing, I'm not sure. Most licensed plumbers around here want nothing to do with drains and most are not very good at them. I know more than a few who will admit to that as well. I, on the other hand, want nothing to do with plumbing. However, I will do whatever it takes to clear a stoppage. For instance, I recently had a tub stoppage in an old apartment building. *The weight from the trip lever was stuck in the overflow and no matter what I tried, I just couldn't get it out.* I'm not leaving the tub clogged so I replaced the tub waste. I'm not a licensed plumber but I've done this many times before. The end result was a job well done and a very satisfied customer. In the end I have total respect for anyone who takes pride in their trade. All I ask is for the same in return. But any plumber who dismisses me for being a lowly drain guy does so with great ignorance.


Yes you certainly do sound it,,,,,and it is obvious to all that you dont care.

You know drains like the back of your hand and do plumbing repairs on drain lines. Interesting !!

I have been doing plumbing for over 40 years and I have never seen a weight in a waste and overflow. I have however seen many waste and overflows which are referred to in the trade as barrel wastes. The barrel is what closes off the drain when needed. Maybe you are not quite as knowledgeable as you think.

Yes, you are legally allowed to practice a very small portion of what our EXPERIENCE and licenses allow us to do. You really need to stick to what you legally can do & leave the rest to the true professionals.

And, BTW, I have cleaned thousands of drains in my career. I don't care if you do too. Just don't toot your horn & downplay the abilities of the plumbers and expect to get a free pass on it.


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

I'm going to have to face palm myself... No one but a licensed plumber should ever be replacing a drain line.


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## Ptturner91 (Oct 13, 2012)

Here in ontario Gas is a separate license mostly HVAC techs have them
I have one but it's 1.5 years of night school 4 hours a night twice a week

In terms of this thread, not all plumbers are well rounded, when I was a second year apprentice I worked for a company that did minor plumbing and major pipe fitting, one day a client asked us to unclog a simple 3" drain the 30+ year master plumber I was working with couldn't get it, we called a drain cleaner in 30 minutes (including unloading and reloading his truck) he was out of there, that's when I looked for another company that did more plumbing and did everything a decision I have never regretted, my point is if your a drain cleaner good for you it's a hard and dirty job and no one should ever knock you down for working a hard day and putting food on the table, just don't do repairs


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

Drain cleaning is not plumbing. Period. 

Snake boy's are not plumbers. Period.



Here (in the State of Michigan), drain cleaning does not require a license. It is not even recognized as a plumbing procedure by the State Plumbing Board. 

Sure there is plenty of money to be made in drain cleaning, plus it can lead to other jobs; but it's not "Plumbing". My state and local government support this statement.

You can be a plumber who offers drain cleaning, but you cannot lawfully be a drain cleaner (snake boy) who offers plumbing.

If you are not at least one of the following:
-Registered Apprentice
-Licensed Journeyman Plumber
-Licensed Master Plumber
-Licensed Mechanical Contractor/HVAC
-Licensed Boiler Installer
-Licensed Plumbing Contractor

I do not recognize you as a professional plumber or professional in a near related field.

Sorry snake boys, this means you


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Unclog1776 said:


> If more plumbers did drain cleaning we wouldn't have to deal with screwed up clean out locations and back to back drain hook ups that make a simple sink call into a two hour ordeal on a daily basis. Even the few plumbers in my area who offer drain cleaning call a few times a year when in over their head. Everyone has their specialty, I'm not going to knock anyone's specialty but at the same time nothing anyone says on here will change my opinion that drain cleaning when done properly (50k worth of equipment rolling up on every job and maid like clean up service when the job is done) is nearly a separate trade. I can say without a doubt that if you put me in front of any clogged drain 3" or smaller and give me one hour I will have it working, 3" and above give me two hours max. I'll bet a weeks profits on that, show me a licensed plumber who will take that challenge.


Licensed plumber.....I'm up for the challenge.


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

TheDrainGuy said:


> Hey big shot. I'll tell you why you come here. Because you can't run you're mouth the way you do here in "the real world." People wouldn't tolerate it. You think people want to hear you're save the trade rants? And "brotherhood" among plumbers? That's only in the union pal. And to them... If you're not union, you're a scab.
> And as far as success goes Mr. state inspector turned school teacher, not sure how you measure it. If its running a company, teaching high school, teaching apprentice school, teaching re-cert classes and all the damn workshops you attend, well good for you. Not much time to "have a life"
> I have a beautiful wife and son. My wife and I both have our own business and she's also a big help with mine. A house in Boston and a summer home in ossipee. All kinds of other crap that means nothing. And guess what, I'm a drain cleaner, I DID IT WITHOUT A LICENSE...
> Some of my BEST friends are master plumbers.
> ...


 You probably do not have a license because you could not get one if you wanted. Guys like you are not meant to be a REAL plumber.

You go ahead and enjoy popping off your clean out caps and rodding them there drains. But remember - You're a snake boy!

and don't forget it!!!!!


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## BOBBYTUCSON (Feb 8, 2013)

I think drain cleaners are just as important. Wether it requires a license or not , i will not respect anyone who doesnt respect drain cleaners.clearing lines and making sure waste gets away from occupants and into the city for treatment is just as, if not more important than bringing or maintaining water into a residence. Water is a luxury.yah we need it to survive , but we do not need faucets , fixtures , water heaters , hoses , and whatnot. People only need water for drinking and bathing and cleaning..if we had to live like other countries, plumbers would be few and far because you wouldnt need a giant workforce for supply and luxuries . Drain cleaning is a must.waste equals disease and plagues.all third world countries need drain cleaners.not plumbers.in india , the life expectancy of a 'drain cleaner' is 32 years old.the mortality rate of the drain cleaners is so high people are forced into the line of work.the mortality rate of the population is high because of that man shortage.the true heroes between plumbers and drain cleaners are clearly the drain cleaners in all of the world except america and modern societies like europe for example.but to be conservative , it should never be a competition or flail between the two titles. If you do both , great. But plumbers who consider themselves plumbers shall not give crap to drain cleaners, but drain cleaners should not call themselves "plumbers" if all they do is drains. I have no problem with drain companys putting plumbing in their name though.

Oh and **** unions.atleast the ones around here.


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> I think drain cleaners are just as important. Wether it requires a license or not , i will not respect anyone who doesnt respect drain cleaners.clearing lines and making sure waste gets away from occupants and into the city for treatment is just as, if not more important than bringing or maintaining water into a residence. Water is a luxury.yah we need it to survive , but we do not need faucets , fixtures , water heaters , hoses , and whatnot. People only need water for drinking and bathing and cleaning..if we had to live like other countries, plumbers would be few and far because you wouldnt need a giant workforce for supply and luxuries . Drain cleaning is a must.waste equals disease and plagues.all third world countries need drain cleaners.not plumbers.in india , the life expectancy of a 'drain cleaner' is 32 years old.the mortality rate of the drain cleaners is so high people are forced into the line of work.the mortality rate of the population is high because of that man shortage.the true heroes between plumbers and drain cleaners are clearly the drain cleaners in all of the world except america and modern societies like europe for example.but to be conservative , it should never be a competition or flail between the two titles. If you do both , great. But plumbers who consider themselves plumbers shall not give crap to drain cleaners, but drain cleaners should not call themselves "plumbers" if all they do is drains. I have no problem with drain companys putting plumbing in their name though.
> 
> Oh and **** unions.atleast the ones around here.


 In response to your reply. Are you high? Seriously, have you been huffing straight from the cleanout before you snake it? Sure seems it.

Drain cleaning is important. But more important than the actual system?? No. Are you clinically insane?

Sorry to break this to you, but Licensed Plumbers and the trade of "Plumbing" trump drain cleaning AND drain cleaners (snake boys)

Even the inspectors think snake boys are a joke. It's like comparing a security guard to a Police Officer. 

Drain cleaning is not plumbing. Whether you want to accept that or not is your privilege.

What does the Union have to do with anything? I use to be Union (UA190) and obviously been on both sides of the fence.

You mad they didn't want you or something? A 3 month Union Apprentice has more skill than ANY snake boy.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

https://www.google.com/#q=definition+of+plumbing

"the work of installing and maintaining plumbing systems"

http://www.cslb.ca.gov/generalinformation/library/licensingclassifications/C36Plumbing.asp

sounds like plumbing to me.


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## BOBBYTUCSON (Feb 8, 2013)

Triplecrown24 said:


> In response to your reply. Are you high? Seriously, have you been huffing straight from the cleanout before you snake it? Sure seems it.
> 
> Drain cleaning is important. But more important than the actual system?? No. Are you clinically insane?
> 
> ...


I understand , but to refer to them as snake boys is like refering to security gaurds as rent-a-cops. You cant justify the cop to security gaurd analogy with plumbing. Both dont eliminate crime.just prevent it. Drain cleaners do eliminate something , which is blockages.plumbers should prevent those by proper installs ( ofcourse not acts of nature like roots).drain cleaners still play a role in public safety and are not jokes.i bet you anything if you worked at a gas station in the ghetto at night , you wouldnt be calling the security gaurd outside a rent a cop.you would probably be happy he was there on duty.his role is fullfilling aswell without that shiny badge. And i hate unions because the tell you how to vote..my bro in law deals with this in i.b.e.w. local 520 , he takes alot of **** from so called "brothers" for not voting for a democrat that dumps money into i.b.e.w. , **** that.get politicians out of unions but keep unions in politics which is the way it should be.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

I consider drain cleaning a part of plumbing. No different than cutting and threading pipe or soldering. It's a skill that does take time to perfect. Some people become very skilled at it. I'm one example of a Plumber, that is a excellent at drain cleaning. I can clear drains with the best on the planet whether they have a Plumbing License or not. Some other Plumbers here that do that also(there are more, this just off the top of my head) Redwood, Gear Junkie, SewerRatz, Best Darn Sewer, and many more. These guys like myself are examples of guys that learned our trade, and exxcel in drain cleaning. That is by no means are only skill set though. Not by a long shot. I'm also am very well rounded in that I can do Service Plumbing and Repair, Remodels and Alterations as well as new construction(hate it, but can do it from ground, top out, and final) I can't relate to areas that allow drain cleaners with out a license to do plumbing repairs(sewer repairs, pull toilets, drain repairs under sinks, etc). If all they do is operate sewer equipment, maybe some areas will allow this and if they do, then in that ares I see no problem with them doing it. Not sure why a area would accept it though since drain maintenance is part of Plumbing, just like flushing a tankless water heater or repairing a faucet. 

Anyway saying that, I do respect skilled drain cleaners because I have a very similar job. I can and I still do all kinds of Plumbing, but I focus on Sewer Service, Sewer and Drain Repairs as well as Sewer Replacements. My goal is not to just snake out and remove the blockage, my goal is to find the cause of the blockage and give the customer the solution or the root of the the problem(pun intended lol).

I respect a skilled Drain Cleaning operating a legal business, but one that operates illegally I can't. I also have a hard time respecting one that somehow think he is better than a plumber at drain cleaning. I will agree they are better than most at that one skill set, but the Plumbers I mentioned above, and there are plenty more here, myself included are just as skilled at drain cleaning, and dare I say, maybe more. I won't say we are better, because this is a online site and what will it gain or prove? But too discredit all Plumbers and say they are not good is totally false and lowers the respect of other in you. The same can be said to plumbers who say drain cleaners are worthless, we all know there are some out there that are(just look on Craigslist, but the drain cleaning only guys here on the PZ are most likely not those scum bags. They operate with a legal business and carry professional equipment.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

This whole thread is flawed hired a union plumber from the north that worked ion high rise condos. This fellow had a difficult time diagnosing a slab leak from a hot water tank leak. He did not know how to figure that out. I have hired drain cleaners that could not install roof drains. I have hired new construction plumbers that could not run service conversely I have service plumbers that cannot install new construction hire on our need. This past year I have experimented with hiring a special person to renew our service agreements. He has done an amazing job with the renewals and much better than any other person since 2000.

There are certain areas where plumbers must be qualified to do every aspect of the plumbing trade and then there are areas where plumbers are niche plumbers. Personally I have not worked on a boiler since 1993 why would I take classes on boiler repairs, new products, or installations?

Isn’t our job as owners and managers to put our people in a position to succeed? Isn’t that more important than placing a label on employees? Each person has their strengths and weaknesses find them and place people in a position to be successful.

I have had a Master’s license from a different state in the past and I have a journeyman’s license today do believe in a license however I do not put all my trust and faith in a person that has a license to do anything that they are my salvation to what I need.

A license will tell me they are committed to their profession and learning their profession. It will not tell me how dedicated they are to my company and my customers.

It is time to stop this archaic thinking that we are better than the next person just because we have this or that.


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

Richard Hilliard said:


> This whole thread is flawed hired a union plumber from the north that worked ion high rise condos. This fellow had a difficult time diagnosing a slab leak from a hot water tank leak. He did not know how to figure that out. I have hired drain cleaners that could not install roof drains. I have hired new construction plumbers that could not run service conversely I have service plumbers that cannot install new construction hire on our need. This past year I have experimented with hiring a special person to renew our service agreements. He has done an amazing job with the renewals and much better than any other person since 2000. There are certain areas where plumbers must be qualified to do every aspect of the plumbing trade and then there are areas where plumbers are niche plumbers. Personally I have not worked on a boiler since 1993 why would I take classes on boiler repairs, new products, or installations? Isn&#146;t our job as owners and managers to put our people in a position to succeed? Isn&#146;t that more important than placing a label on employees? Each person has their strengths and weaknesses find them and place people in a position to be successful. I have had a Master&#146;s license from a different state in the past and I have a journeyman&#146;s license today do believe in a license however I do not put all my trust and faith in a person that has a license to do anything that they are my salvation to what I need. A license will tell me they are committed to their profession and learning their profession. It will not tell me how dedicated they are to my company and my customers. It is time to stop this archaic thinking that we are better than the next person just because we have this or that.


Best post in this thread.


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## Ptturner91 (Oct 13, 2012)

Drain Pro said:


> Best post in this thread.


Agreed


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I'm not seeing the big deal here...

As long as the work is done in compliance with the laws of the state in which they are working then they are indeed a "Plumbing Professional." The scope of the work they are performing clearly places them in that category.

That said, anyone that chooses to engage in only part of the trade, it does place constraints on their income potential by not offering full service to their customers, but if operating in that niche is adequate for you, and you aren't loosing your customer base to full service operators, then God Bless...

Whenever I am called by a customer that uses someone else for the rest of their plumbing needs, I'll make sure that they know, I can take care of all of their plumbing needs... It's how I roll!:thumbup:

I love being called by a new customer that uses a partial service operator for the rest of their plumbing needs. Thanks for letting me get my boot in the door....:thumbup:


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## TheDrainGuy (Jan 1, 2014)

Triplecrown24 said:


> You probably do not have a license because you could not get one if you wanted. Guys like you are not meant to be a REAL plumber. You go ahead and enjoy popping off your clean out caps and rodding them there drains. But remember - You're a snake boy! and don't forget it!!!!!











I'm sorry that success has eluded you despite "having a license."


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

Redwood said:


> I'm not seeing the big deal here... As long as the work is done in compliance with the laws of the state in which they are working then they are indeed a "Plumbing Professional." The scope of the work they are performing clearly places them in that category. That said, anyone that chooses to engage in only part of the trade, it does place constraints on their income potential by not offering full service to their customers, but if operating in that niche is adequate for you, and you aren't loosing your customer base to full service operators, then God Bless... Whenever I am called by a customer that uses someone else for the rest of their plumbing needs, I'll make sure that they know, I can take care of all of their plumbing needs... It's how I roll!:thumbup: I love being called by a new customer that uses a partial service operator for the rest of their plumbing needs. Thanks for letting me get my boot in the door....:thumbup:


I find it more lucrative to focus on one aspect of plumbing, which is obviously drain cleaning. I regularly turn people away who request leaks and such repairs. I generally recommend one of several reputable plumbers, none of whom do drain cleaning. I believe in doing one thing and doing it very well. That's the best way to service someone, IMO. At least for a small company like mine. Honestly, I'm so busy with drain work that I don't have the time to expand further into plumbing. I am however expanding my drain cleaning services by purchasing a US Jetter. I like to have a reputation as a drain specialist. People know when they call me the job will get done. On a side note, I was actually trained as an oil burner mechanic years back. I got all the certifications that I could possibly get around here so I'm as "licensed" as possibly allowed around these parts. I can't tell you how many heating calls I turn down every winter. Like I said, I believe in focussing on one thing and being the very best at it.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Drain Pro said:


> I find it more lucrative to focus on one aspect of plumbing, which is obviously drain cleaning. I regularly turn people away who request leaks and such repairs. I generally recommend one of several reputable plumbers, none of whom do drain cleaning. I believe in doing one thing and doing it very well. That's the best way to service someone, IMO. At least for a small company like mine. Honestly, I'm so busy with drain work that I don't have the time to expand further into plumbing. I am however expanding my drain cleaning services by purchasing a US Jetter. I like to have a reputation as a drain specialist. People know when they call me the job will get done. On a side note, I was actually trained as an oil burner mechanic years back. I got all the certifications that I could possibly get around here so I'm as "licensed" as possibly allowed around these parts. I can't tell you how many heating calls I turn down every winter. Like I said, I believe in focussing on one thing and being the very best at it.


Nothing wrong with what you are doing...
It certainly allows you to maintain a lower overhead and easier working conditions without having 10 lbs of shiot in a 5 lb sack in your van while you run calls...

As long as it keeps the lights on and gives you bread & butter it's all good...:thumbup:


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Nothing wrong with what you are doing... It certainly allows you to maintain a lower overhead and easier working conditions without having 10 lbs of shiot in a 5 lb sack in your van while you run calls... As long as it keeps the lights on and gives you bread & butter it's all good...:thumbup:


I actually just purchased a 14' box truck to haul all my stuff around. The first half of the truck is for all my day to day drain equipment, the back is reserved for the skid jetter to be installed. A van just won't do it for me anymore.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Drain Pro said:


> I actually just purchased a 14' box truck to haul all my stuff around. The first half of the truck is for all my day to day drain equipment, the back is reserved for the skid jetter to be installed. A van just won't do it for me anymore.


Nice! The box truck and a skid jetter is certainly a nice rig to roll in ...
We have several...
Are you getting a lift gate for it? Having an elevator rocks! :thumbup:
Roll up doors are another big plus...


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Nice! The box truck and a skid jetter is certainly a nice rig to roll in ... We have several... Are you getting a lift gate for it? Having an elevator rocks! :thumbup: Roll up doors are another big plus...


 Side roll up door with "stairs". Having a spitz lift installed on the side. All my shelving is built to surround the machines on the side. The rear is completely empty. Having a US Jet 4000/18 300 gallon tank with power pull out reel installed in the back. I'm putting a deposit down at the end of the month and having it installed May/June. Only downside is I gotta drive to and from US Jetting.


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

TheDrainGuy said:


> View attachment 30797
> 
> 
> I'm sorry that success has eluded you despite "having a license."


 Listen up Snake Boy, I am reaping nothing but success. I make more money than a lot of doctors and dentists, and since you want to talk about success, I guarantee I have more $$ than you!! I could probably buy and re-sell you as a pet, if I chose. 

If I wanted to add drain cleaning...I would. At the end of the day, I have a master license, contractor license, builders license and mechanical contractor license, employees, a shop located away from home, and the local inspectors love me. Did I mention I'm on pace to retire comfortably when I'm 50? Don't tell me sh!t about success. You know nothing about success. Have you ever served an apprenticeship? Have you ever passed a journeyman and/or master exam? have you ever laid out a 10 story building and then plumb it from underground to finish? Have you ever deposited a $200,000 plus check? 

All I am telling you is drain cleaning is not plumbing. And it's not. Accept it.
I'm also telling you that you're a snake boy who has no credentials at all.

You can call me whatever you want, but when I wrap up the day, I have the license, the money, the skill and the SUCCESS.


You're the one who got on here ranting and raving about licenses and taking shots at the Union guys. It was time to bring you back down and remind you what you are and where you stand.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

You gents might want to back off the measuring contest. Please try to keep the debate on a professional rather than person level.

The more personal it gets, the more likely it all heads to the trash. Nobody gets their point across from there.

Thanks.


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> You gents might want to back off the measuring contest. Please try to keep the debate on a professional rather than person level.
> 
> The more personal it gets, the more likely it all heads to the trash. Nobody gets their point across from there.
> 
> Thanks.


 You might as well trash it. Because it's not going to get any better.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Triplecrown24 said:


> You might as well trash it. Because it's not going to get any better.


Well that's too bad.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Triplecrown24 said:


> Even the inspectors think snake boys are a joke. It's like comparing a security guard to a Police Officer.


More like comparing a navy seal to a meter maid. That reminds me of a story. I used to work for a service plumbing company that also had drain cleaners on staff. I was a 5th year at the time. One of the drain cleaner guys was complaining to me why I never had to go on sewer rodding calls. The owners kid( other licensed plumber) said you don't send the navy seals out to work crowd control at state fair. He got all butt hurt over it. I actually got called into the bosses office over that one, and had to explain that I didn't say it, his kid did. Yes I laughed but you have to admit it was pretty funny.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> You gents might want to back off the measuring contest. Please try to keep the debate on a professional rather than person level. The more personal it gets, the more likely it all heads to the trash. Nobody gets their point across from there. Thanks.


 I think the whole thing started when you have somebody with no official training and no license that has skirted the system. Then snubs his nose at the rest of us and starts the I can do more than you thing. In my are a lot of towns are now thinking about requiring a sewer company to hold plumbing license to avoid unqualified persons doing repair work. I think this would be a great thing. It would meld the two together and there would be no cheating or having to call two company's. If you don't have a license you close your doors or get a license. Then everybody would be on a even playing field. This would calm the measuring tape.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Next thing you know the folks from Servpro and the Maids will want to be included because they clean up after the toilet overflows on the carpets :laughing: give it up. You clean drains. Your knowledge of plumbing is on par with the guy wearing the orange smock. No license = a job! license = professional. :thumbsup:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Next thing you know the folks from Servpro and the Maids will want to be included because they clean up after the toilet overflows on the carpets :laughing: give it up. You clean drains. Your knowledge of plumbing is on par with the guy wearing the orange smock. No license = a job! license = professional. :thumbsup:


...


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

I am more concerned with handymen advertising plumbing services than the drain guys pulling/resetting toilets, or making repairs to a drain line.

Add in the master plumbers doling out advice to h.o.'s via the internet. Bigger problem than the drain cleaners imo.

I would think most drain cleaners know no their limitations.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Triplecrown24 said:


> Listen up Snake Boy, I am reaping nothing but success. I make more money than a lot of doctors and dentists, and since you want to talk about success, I guarantee I have more $$ than you!! I could probably buy and re-sell you as a pet, if I chose.
> 
> If I wanted to add drain cleaning...I would. At the end of the day, I have a master license, contractor license, builders license and mechanical contractor license, employees, a shop located away from home, and the local inspectors love me. Did I mention I'm on pace to retire comfortably when I'm 50? Don't tell me sh!t about success. You know nothing about success. Have you ever served an apprenticeship? Have you ever passed a journeyman and/or master exam? have you ever laid out a 10 story building and then plumb it from underground to finish? Have you ever deposited a $200,000 plus check?
> 
> ...


Ouch! Such harsh words from a limited service company...:laughing:



Triplecrown24 said:


> My company does not offer drain cleaning


http://www.plumbingzone.com/f4/99-dollar-drain-cleaners-27791/#post435316

You wouldn't want to know what the checks add up to each week from our drain cleaning jobs, and we don't have to wait for disbursements from a start to finish job on a 10-story building...:laughing:

The plumbing side even with the "Help" from the drain cleaning side with main line replacements, pipe bursting, and relining jobs struggles to hit about 66% of what the drain cleaning side does...


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> ...


And the view from up here is spectacular :laughing:


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## plumber tim (Jul 4, 2013)

Drain cleaning any monkey with half a brain and strong back can do it. A good plumber can lay out a rough in a large commercial building, service a boiler etc. all in the same day. Most plumbers I know in Mass that don't do drain cleaning is because they choose not too. Drain cleaning is a dirty nasty job so of course the pay should be good. But as for my self I choose to do new construction instead of nasty drain cleaning and the risk of hepatitis and other diseases is not worth it to me.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> And the view from up here is spectacular :laughing:


And as usual, clouded.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

plumber tim said:


> Drain cleaning any monkey with half a brain and strong back can do it. A good plumber can lay out a rough in a large commercial building, service a boiler etc. all in the same day. Most plumbers I know in Mass that don't do drain cleaning is because they choose not too. Drain cleaning is a dirty nasty job so of course the pay should be good. But as for my self I choose to do new construction instead of nasty drain cleaning and the risk of hepatitis and other diseases is not worth it to me.


I don't think they are monkey's .......chimpanzee's maybe :laughing: no just kidding. It's hard work, takes some skill and yes, it's dirty work but someone has to do it. We used to farm it all out to the rooter guys too but it makes more financial sense for us to do it ourselves. I see it as a steady income source plus it puts the company's name in the customers house. IOW it's a sales leader. However, all our plumbers are licensed and all of the service plumbers clean drains as well as do service work so though it's been fun to rag on those guys, you plumbers that have shied away from drain cleaning should reconsider the financial ramifications. It's money in the pocket and your name in people's homes.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> And as usual, clouded.


And it seems.... With a chance of meatballs :laughing:


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I don't think they are monkey's .......chimpanzee's maybe :laughing: no just kidding. It's hard work, takes some skill and yes, it's dirty work but someone has to do it. We used to farm it all out to the rooter guys too but it makes more financial sense for us to do it ourselves. I see it as a steady income source plus it puts the company's name in the customers house. IOW it's a sales leader. However, all our plumbers are licensed and all of the service plumbers clean drains as well as do service work so though it's been fun to rag on those guys, you plumbers that have shied away from drain cleaning should reconsider the financial ramifications. It's money in the pocket and your name in people's homes.


This is where I disagree with you. Once you get good at it you should be able to clean a drain and stay clean most of the time. I still occasionally get a cable mark on my jeans but it's rare that I get more than that on me. I am not afraid to get dirty but in all reality it's sewage and I just don't want it on me if I can avoid it :thumbup: Besides I don't wanna show up at the next home or even worse my own home with crap all over me.


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

Triplecrown24 said:


> In response to your reply. Are you high? Seriously, have you been huffing straight from the cleanout before you snake it? Sure seems it.
> 
> Drain cleaning is important. But more important than the actual system?? No. Are you clinically insane?
> 
> ...


You must be one of those plumbers that thinks because a faucet drips it needs replaced. How can you say drain cleaners are not important to plumbing? I guess it's normal for crap to back up in your shower isn't it. You I bet would be lost trying to repair a tankless heater. Yeah I have had calls from guys like you to help bail their ass out because they are in over their head. Get your head out of your ass...drain cleaners are just as important as the pipe layer. Oh as far as unions...they do suck and I was in one as a journeyman..lots of the union guys would never last as a service plumber. I watched a union plumber use a closet auger to try to open a shower drain. Yes a shower drain. When he couldn't he told the customer that he needed to jackhammer the drains up because....wait....wait....the pipes were rotten and had holes... I have yet to see abs rot out with holes in it. All my rooter/service guy had to do was run the shower drain. Bam happy customer and I gained a customer from the stupid plumber.


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

I'm a 100 % drains only guy and run a very busy 3 man shop. The drain field is full of hacks. Probably more so than other high dollar trades. I would be in full support of requiring a license to work on sewers. It's the health of the community. I've been doing it long enough that I feel there is a difference between a real legitimate drain cleaning company and a plumbing shop so I cant say that a plumbing license would be the best route as there is no reason we need to be licensed to run gas water drains or repair anything. That being said I'll admit it is very easy for a hack with good credit to call up Mytana and have a van moving the next day


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> I am more concerned with handymen advertising plumbing services than the drain guys pulling/resetting toilets, or making repairs to a drain line. Add in the master plumbers doling out advice to h.o.'s via the internet. Bigger problem than the drain cleaners imo. I would think most drain cleaners know no their limitations.


What exactly separates a handy man and a non handy man? My definition is a license. Anyone licensed to do the work is a professional, everyone else is a handy man.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Unclog1776 said:


> I'm a 100 % drains only guy and run a very busy 3 man shop. The drain field is full of hacks. Probably more so than other high dollar trades. I would be in full support of requiring a license to work on sewers. It's the health of the community. I've been doing it long enough that I feel there is a difference between a real legitimate drain cleaning company and a plumbing shop so I cant say that a plumbing license would be the best route as there is no reason we need to be licensed to run gas water drains or repair anything. That being said I'll admit it is very easy for a hack with good credit to call up Mytana and have a van moving the next day


I would be behind this as well. There are tons of specialized drain cleaning tools I have never used, nor have the desire to use. Everyone needs their niche.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> What exactly separates a handy man and a non handy man? My definition is a license. Anyone licensed to do the work is a professional, everyone else is a handy man.


To suggest that someone who is clearly focused specifically on their trade and running a legitimate business is just a "handyman" is horribly shortsighted. Why would you say such a thing? Just because his state does not offer a specific license for drain cleaning? 

I believe a handyman refers more the "jack of all trades, master of none" category. Drain Cleaners are a viable and critical part of our trade. Some companies do it all (or at least claim to) and others specialize. Far more try to work in a niche. 

For all the rest of you out there that think if you don't do it all, you're not a real Plumber...I seriously doubt that even one of you has relevant experience in ALL THINGS plumbing or you wouldn't be on the internet asking questions. Maybe all plumbing licenses should be revoked from people that do not do resi, comm, and high-rise construction AND the same categories of service AND drain cleaning AND drain replacement AND use all methods of drain replacement.

How about we start with all the guys running a business that don't have a clue. Wouldn't it be a real hoot if some of those same people that are out there screwing up the market and ruining employee's careers with their ignorance on business matters, were the very ones that think Drain Cleaners have no place in our trade. Maybe they should forfeit their licenses since they prove almost daily they should have never had one to begin with.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> To suggest that someone who is clearly focused specifically on their trade and running a legitimate business is just a "handyman" is horribly shortsighted. Why would you say such a thing? Just because his state does not offer a specific license for drain cleaning? I believe a handyman refers more the "jack of all trades, master of none" category. Drain Cleaners are a viable and critical part of our trade. Some companies do it all (or at least claim to) and others specialize. Far more try to work in a niche. For all the rest of you out there that think if you don't do it all, you're not a real Plumber...I seriously doubt that even one of you has relevant experience in ALL THINGS plumbing or you wouldn't be on the internet asking questions. Maybe all plumbing licenses should be revoked from people that do not do resi, comm, and high-rise construction AND the same categories of service AND drain cleaning AND drain replacement AND use all methods of drain replacement. How about we start with all the guys running a business that don't have a clue. Wouldn't it be a real hoot if some of those same people that are out there screwing up the market and ruining employee's careers with their ignorance on business matters, were the very ones that think Drain Cleaners have no place in our trade. Maybe they should forfeit their licenses since they prove almost daily they should have never had one to begin with.


I was referring to tasks that require a license like her post that I quoted says. She said she doesn't mind if a drain cleaner does plumbing repairs. If it requires a license, and you don't have one but do it anyway, you're a handy man. Obviously drain cleaning doesn't require one so that criteria can't be used. Then it becomes about technique and equipment used.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> I was referring to tasks that require a license like her post that I quoted says. She said she doesn't mind if a drain cleaner does plumbing repairs. If it requires a license, and you don't have one but do it anyway, you're a handy man. Obviously drain cleaning doesn't require one so that criteria can't be used. Then it becomes about technique and equipment used.


I agree with you in principle.

I see her point that the greater evil is the handyhack. She didn't say she didn't mind if the drain cleaner did a plumbing repair. Just that a general handyman was worse. Maybe I misunderstood though.

HOWEVER...if a license in a particular area is required, then a licensed Plumber should be doing the repair.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> I agree with you in principle. I see her point that the greater evil is the handyhack. She didn't say she didn't mind if the drain cleaner did a plumbing repair. Just that a general handyman was worse. Maybe I misunderstood though. HOWEVER...if a license in a particular area is required, then a licensed Plumber should be doing the repair.


 I think that if you make them all have a license and they break the boundary of that license ,fines and jail time should straighten out most.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> I agree with you in principle.
> 
> I see her point that the greater evil is the handyhack. She didn't say she didn't mind if the drain cleaner did a plumbing repair. Just that a general handyman was worse. Maybe I misunderstood though.
> 
> HOWEVER...if a license in a particular area is required, then a licensed Plumber should be doing the repair.


You did not misunstand. :no:

Demonizing others in the trade serves no purpose IMO. Your typical full-service drain cleaning company does not typically do plumbing. Just enough to facilitate clearing the drain. They are not stocking plumbing materials on their trucks. :no:

We do basic drain cleaning - that is it. I am grateful to the drain cleaning company I sub to. We have an understanding . . . the customer is ours! In this case, the drain cleaner happens to be a Master Plumber, BUT, he does NOT want to do plumbing. In our case, drain cleaning is NOT our specialty. Not enough room on the vans to carry all the drain cleaning equipment to be effective.

Every plumber we have ever had in our employ could run a cable machine. The majority will tell you that their skill in that area doesn't even come close to the 'real drain cleaners.' You know the type: They can feel every bend, fitting, drop. They know when to push forward, and they know when to pull back. It is a valuable skill. 

Frankly, I don't recall one referring to drain cleaners as less skilled, or even lower in pecking order to the plumber. They seemed to recognize that both disciplines take skill!


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Just not quite as much skill :laughing:

Its strange how anything connected with plumbing suddenly makes you a plumber. By that logic the counter guys should all have masters licenses because they not only know what the stuff is, they can recite the catalog and inventory number :laughing:

I don't think anyone here is debating that drain cleaners (most of them) know how to do their job but again, so does the guy flipping burgers at McDonalds and the guy changing your oil at Speedy Lube. By the prevailing logic of some posting here, the Speedy Lube guys should be master Auto Mechanics. Drain cleaning is drain cleaning. You pop the cap, run the cable badda bing. There is nothing other than the pipes that is even remotely like plumbing.

A plumbing company that gives away work is missing a very lucrative income stream and runs the risk of losing valuable customers and repair dollars to another company. You say that your drain cleaning company doesn't take work from you and maybe that's true but I guarantee you that if you look in their vans you will find a 5 gallon bucket full of Ferncos and lengths of PVC. Do they really call you when they blow a hole through a section of galvanized? Maybe yes, probably no which is why I decided 20 years ago to cut them out of the picture. Plus, we can honestly advertise that our guys cleaning drains are licensed plumbers. Something that adds an extra level of comfort for the customer. Again, for the 40th time. Drain cleaners can clean drains. Plumbers can clean drains and plumb. There's your difference. :thumbsup: I know we have been over the whole member rights thing here and by no means am I in favor of kicking the drain guys out of here but neither is it worth five threads and hundreds of posts re-hashing the same issues.

So here.....I respect the work that you do. I respect the work that ANYBODY does but, you ain't a plumber till you have a license that says so.


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Ouch! Such harsh words from a limited service company...:laughing:
> 
> 
> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f4/99-dollar-drain-cleaners-27791/#post435316
> ...


 I never said there is no money in drain cleaning. There is plenty of money to made in electrical too, but I don't offer that either.

Of course I am a full service company! What's wrong with you?:laughing: So sad you have a difficult time understanding that. I offer plumbing and nothing but plumbing. I do not offer drain cleaning, because drain cleaning is NOT plumbing.

I must not be doing that bad. I have a net worth over 7 figures.


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

victoryplbaz said:


> You must be one of those plumbers that thinks because a faucet drips it needs replaced. How can you say drain cleaners are not important to plumbing? I guess it's normal for crap to back up in your shower isn't it. You I bet would be lost trying to repair a tankless heater. Yeah I have had calls from guys like you to help bail their ass out because they are in over their head. Get your head out of your ass...drain cleaners are just as important as the pipe layer. Oh as far as unions...they do suck and I was in one as a journeyman..lots of the union guys would never last as a service plumber. I watched a union plumber use a closet auger to try to open a shower drain. Yes a shower drain. When he couldn't he told the customer that he needed to jackhammer the drains up because....wait....wait....the pipes were rotten and had holes... I have yet to see abs rot out with holes in it. All my rooter/service guy had to do was run the shower drain. Bam happy customer and I gained a customer from the stupid plumber.


 Stupid plumber, huh? The guy probably was not a plumber to start with.

Does the mechanic clean your car after he fixes it? Nope. That would be the Porter.

So why would I snake, drain clean, rodd, or whatever you want to call it?

Drain cleaning is important. Never said it wasn't. It's just not plumbing! Period! If it were, then it would require a license, just like PLUMBING does!


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Just not quite as much skill :laughing:
> 
> Its strange how anything connected with plumbing suddenly makes you a plumber. By that logic the counter guys should all have masters licenses because they not only know what the stuff is, they can recite the catalog and inventory number :laughing:
> 
> ...


 Exactly, NH!

Again, I am not ragging the money aspect or how important drain cleaning is. I'm really not! All I am saying is drain cleaning is not plumbing! And it's not either!! Guys who pump gas must be master mechanics too, right? After all, the car could not run without fuel, right? 

Do you see where I'm going with this?


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

8. "Plumbing contractor" means any person who is skilled in the planning, superintending, 
and practical installation of plumbing and who is familiar with the laws and rules governing the 
same. This definition may be construed to mean any person who has qualified and is licensed 
under The Plumbing License Law of 1955 as a plumbing contractor, who may operate as an 
individual, a firm, partnership, limited liability company, or corporation, or other legal entity to 
engage in the business of plumbing, or the business of contracting to do plumbing, or furnish 
labor or materials or both for the installation, repair, maintenance, or renovation of plumbing 
according to the requirements of The Plumbing License Law of 1955; 

9. "Plumbing" means, and includes: 

a. all piping, fixtures, appurtenances and appliances for, and in connection with, a 
supply of water within or adjacent to any building, structure, or conveyance, on the 
premises and to the connection with a water main or other source of supply, 

b. all piping, fixtures, appurtenances and appliances for sanitary drainage or storm 
drainage facilities, including venting systems for such facilities, within or adjacent to 
any building, structure, or conveyance, on the premises and to the connection with a 
public disposal system or other acceptable terminal, 

c. the installation, repair, *maintenance* and renovation of all piping, fixtures, 
appurtenances and appliances for a supply of water, or for the disposal of waste 
water, liquid waste, or sewage within or adjacent to any building, structure, or 
conveyance, on the premises and to the source of supply of water or point of 
disposal of wastes, and 

d. the installation, repair and maintenance of radiant-floor heating system piping in 
residential homes with capacities no greater than one hundred thousand (100,000) 
BTU’s using only piping approved by the most current adopted edition of the 
International Mechanical Code; and



In Oklahoma, Drain Cleaning is plumbing. Unfortunately, it's probably not enforced. I honestly can't say if there is Drain Cleaning only companies here operating without a license, never realy checked. We do have plenty of hacks on Craigslist though advertising drain cleaning as well as plumbing with out a license.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

I consider drain cleaning plumbing, but a guy that only knows drain cleaning is not a plumber. He would have never passed the test if that's all he knows. I do not think they are worthless "snake boys" though. I can respect a drain cleaner for there skills, as long as they respect the plumbing laws in there areas


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

And this is what the state of CA. where you are not required to be licensed to be a drain cleaner has to say under their plumbing code,

Title 16, Division 8, Article 3. Classifications


A plumbing contractor provides a means for a supply of safe water, ample in volume and of suitable temperature for the purpose intended and the proper disposal of fluid waste from the premises in all structures and fixed works. This classification includes but is not limited to:

(a) Complete removal of waste from the premises or the construction and connection of on-site waste disposal systems; :thumbup:


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> I agree with you in principle. I see her point that the greater evil is the handyhack. She didn't say she didn't mind if the drain cleaner did a plumbing repair. Just that a general handyman was worse. Maybe I misunderstood though. HOWEVER...if a license in a particular area is required, then a licensed Plumber should be doing the repair.


And what I'm trying to say is that if you're unlicensed, you are equal to a handyman if you're doing work that requires a license. It's just as bad for a drain cleaner doing unlicensed plumbing work, as a general handyman, as an auto mechanic or an astronaut. It doesn't matter if the work requires a license and you don't have one you're a hack. Even if it's done right, you aren't supposed to be doing it. Unless you're working legally, you're working illegally. There is no better or worse, it's one or the other.

That's my entire point. I don't care if it's a carpenter doing my work, or a drain cleaner, or a space alien. If you don't have a plumbing license, and you're supposed to, leave it alone.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Triplecrown24 said:


> I never said there is no money in drain cleaning. There is plenty of money to made in electrical too, but I don't offer that either.
> 
> Of course I am a full service company! What's wrong with you?:laughing: So sad you have a difficult time understanding that. I offer plumbing and nothing but plumbing. I do not offer drain cleaning, because drain cleaning is NOT plumbing.
> 
> I must not be doing that bad. I have a net worth over 7 figures.


Yea I gotcha Bud...

You offer "Full Service" except what you don't do... :blink::thumbup:

And congratulations on your 7 figure wealth...
I'm sooo effin impressed that some random anonymous guy on the internet tells me he's freaking rich... Tell it to me again...:laughing:


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Yea I gotcha Bud...
> 
> You offer "Full Service" except what you don't do... :blink::thumbup:
> 
> ...


 I do not consider myself rich. I would say "financially secure". I'm not just a plumber, Red. I'm a business person who invests and I take risks too. I also had a couple of IPO's that really paid off down the road. Not to mention I sometimes have 16-20 hour workdays. I earn every cent.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Triplecrown24 said:


> I do not consider myself rich. I would say "financially secure". I'm not just a plumber, Red. I'm a business person who invests and I take risks too. I also had a couple of IPO's that really paid off down the road. Not to mention I sometimes have 16-20 hour workdays. I earn every cent.


Ummm okay...
I guess you missed the point... But do carry on if you must...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Redwood said:


> ...I'm sooo effin impressed that some random anonymous guy on the internet tells me...]/QUOTE]
> Hey! Stop using my lines. :laughing:


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

There is nothing wrong with a drain cleaner who sticks to drain cleaning. They do require skill and do provide a service.

Mark


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

ToUtahNow said:


> There is nothing wrong with a drain cleaner who sticks to drain cleaning. They do require skill and do provide a service. Mark


the trick is keeping them to just cleaning drains. They slip in repairs pulling stools and other simple repair but it still crosses the line. I still say make them carry a license if they get caught doing repairs they get there license suspended or pay a hefty fine. In extreme cases you could jail them.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

What are ya in fer boy? Plumbing without a license :laughing:


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

I get both sides. Look, if you go to a plumbing convention you're gonna see drain cleaning equipment and drain cleaners. 


I can make a lot of money selling tacos in a taco truck. Does that make me a classically trained chef? No. But if I make good tacos and I pass all my health inspections, don't ***** about it. Eat yer taco and move on.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

nhmaster3015 said:


> What are ya in fer boy? Plumbing without a license :laughing:


that works for me!lol


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

MTDUNN said:


> I get both sides. Look, if you go to a plumbing convention you're gonna see drain cleaning equipment and drain cleaners. I can make a lot of money selling tacos in a taco truck. Does that make me a classically trained chef? No. But if I make good tacos and I pass all my health inspections, don't ***** about it. Eat yer taco and move on.


 the key to your statement is if you pass all of your inspections. What do they give you then, yep a license to cook tacos. That is the point license everybody,it doesn't need to be a plumbing license it just needs to be there so when somebody try's doing plumbers work they will know he isn't a plumber. It could even go as far as supply houses being required by law to turn them in if they by supply's for repair work.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

MTDUNN said:


> I get both sides. Look, if you go to a plumbing convention you're gonna see drain cleaning equipment and drain cleaners. I can make a lot of money selling tacos in a taco truck. Does that make me a classically trained chef? No. But if I make good tacos and I pass all my health inspections, don't ***** about it. Eat yer taco and move on.


It doesn't require a license to sell tacos. Besides you're required to pass inspection. When an unlicensed guy does plumbing work, he isn't pulling a permit for it. Not inspecting it either. I saw a hose Bibb last week that the lawn sprinkler guy installed. You can argue that they have as much piping experience as a drain cleaner from all those in ground sprinkler systems. 

What do you think that install looked like? It was a complete abortion. Doesn't meet code, and my 3 year old kid could do a better job. Leave plumbing to the plumbers, no drain cleaners or lawn sprinkler guys.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

wyrickmech said:


> the key to your statement is if you pass all of your inspections. What do they give you then, yep a license to cook tacos. That is the point license everybody,it doesn't need to be a plumbing license it just needs to be there so when somebody try's doing plumbers work they will know he isn't a plumber. It could even go as far as supply houses being required by law to turn them in if they by supply's for repair work.



when I lived in Chicago there was a hvac/plumbing supply house that only sold to those in the trade.When I moved to Wisconsin the supply house here was First Supply, they also required proof,license, to buy.:thumbsup:


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

we don't want to knock them out of the game just play by the rules. There is nothing wrong with asking them to be licensed. It simply quarries them to understand what they are working on.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Phat Cat said:


> I am more concerned with handymen advertising plumbing services than the drain guys pulling/resetting toilets, or making repairs to a drain line.
> 
> They are one and the same. The loophole which allows them to touch plumbing is various handyman exemptions.
> 
> ...


Those who work in the field see it all of the time. It's not that the work by drain cleaners is always poorly done, it's that they are doing unlicensed work. 

Mark


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

Seems everyone has a problem with drain cleaners doing pipe repair/install work. What if they just clean sewers and do it very well and never touch drains? If everyone really has a problem with that I'll probably find a different forum. I agree that drain cleaners doing plumbing is no different than a handy man


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

Unclog1776 said:


> Seems everyone has a problem with drain cleaners doing pipe repair/install work. What if they just clean sewers and do it very well and never touch drains? If everyone really has a problem with that I'll probably find a different forum. I agree that drain cleaners doing plumbing is no different than a handy man


I have plenty of respect for drain cleaners. 
For instance, I called up a cesspool/drain cleaning company to provide a quote for a job involving replacing area drains in different locations under sidewalks with overhead grates.
While talking to a manager, I got a quote for the hourly rate on a vacuum truck and jetter.
However, we do not know if there are traps underneath the drains yet. If there are, the vactor jetter will not get through it, and they will have to be
snaked.
When he asked me if I would like him to snake the drains if needed, I asked "Are they better than me with a snake?" He responded: "I don't know, but that is all they do."
My response: "Then they are definitely better than me with a snake. Done. I'm including snaking the drains with your quote."


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Unclog1776 said:


> ...What if they just clean sewers and do it very well and never touch drains? If everyone really has a problem with that I'll probably find a different forum...


If it is within the scope of their AHJ's requirements then it is all good in my opinion.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Unclog1776 said:


> Seems everyone has a problem with drain cleaners doing pipe repair/install work. What if they just clean sewers and do it very well and never touch drains? If everyone really has a problem with that I'll probably find a different forum. I agree that drain cleaners doing plumbing is no different than a handy man



We know you. We like you, you can stick around......but those other guys :furious::laughing:


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Unclog1776 said:


> Seems everyone has a problem with drain cleaners doing pipe repair/install work. What if they just clean sewers and do it very well and never touch drains? If everyone really has a problem with that I'll probably find a different forum. I agree that drain cleaners doing plumbing is no different than a handy man


If its true what the back of this guys truck reads??? Then you guys are at the very least,,, the 3rd oldest profession!:laughing: Which is all good with me. (I know you all have been waiting for my opinion on the matter).:laughing:


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

nhmaster3015 said:


> We know you. We like you, you can stick around......but those other guys :furious::laughing:


If it means anything I used to get offered plumbing apprenticeships a lot when I was younger running a Jetter truck for my old man. I never knew a plumber who did drain cleaning (and was good at it) until this forum. Maybe my dad made a name for himself early on in my area but it is nearly two separate trades in my county


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## richlaf (Mar 21, 2014)

I started in the trades in 1972 in Michigan for a plumbing contractor. Started on the sewer cleaning truck then residential service. Three years later the contractor went bankrupt due to the fuel shortage of the 70's. The union didn't have any jobs, everyone was going to Texas. I started a sewer cleaning company with a partner and worked it for a couple of years. Got my journey plumbers license and later got into HVAC with Mechanical Contractors License. Worked HVAC until I retired.

My ex business partner worked the sewer cleaning business until he retired and now his son runs it. Sewer cleaning is very hard work but it was good to me when I needed it.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

richlaf said:


> I started in the trades in 1972 in Michigan for a plumbing contractor. Started on the sewer cleaning truck then residential service. Three years later the contractor went bankrupt due to the fuel shortage of the 70's. The union didn't have any jobs, everyone was going to Texas. I started a sewer cleaning company with a partner and worked it for a couple of years. Got my journey plumbers license and later got into HVAC with Mechanical Contractors License. Worked HVAC until I retired.
> 
> My ex business partner worked the sewer cleaning business until he retired and now his son runs it. Sewer cleaning is very hard work but it was good to me when I needed it.


Hey richlaf, please go to the introductions section and post an intro. Some of this information here is good. Let us know more about your experience and what you do now. Thanks!!


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Letterrip said:


> Hey richlaf, please go to the introductions section and post an intro. Some of this information here is good. Let us know more about your experience and what you do now. Thanks!!


Richlaf - If you like, just copy and paste what you wrote in the intro thread. Not all members will read what you wrote here, but they do read intros. :yes:

Welcome to PZ! :thumbup:


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