# Bad Customers



## RGB Plumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

I installed a Rinnai tankless water heater for a customer about 8 months ago. I also added a drain and water line for a Laundry sink, and hauled away his old 100 gal solar water heater.:thumbup: The job turned out great and the customer was happy. I got paid and marked it off as another successful job well done. Today 8 months later I get a call from the lady first, asking me about a new problem which has recently developed. She complained to me that the pipes have recently began to vibrate and or make noise when the water shuts off on any fixture. I explained to her that she may have other problems and will need some additional work. I told her that if there wasnt a problem with the water heater i installed, or the piping i worked on, that she would need additional work. I explained to her my hourly rate and also told her she may need a new PRV at the street, or if that was ok i could add an expansion tank to stop the water hammer which had recently developed. She did not want to listen to my explanation and said she would get back to me.
A few minutes later i get a call from her senile old husband, who i had already had problems with 8 months ago, trying to explain what the job cost and what materials i would use. He didnt understand anything, was difficult to deal with, and wanted a deal. I almost did not do the rinnai installation for them because i knew he would be a problem.
Anyway he calls me and the first thing out of his mouth is- "im not happy with that job you did for us". I told him i explained to his wife , he needed additional work and his new problem wasnt caused by me. Angrily he said to me- " I can do more just by telling people up here(where we live in the hills) to not hire you". I got pissed:furious: and told him you do that and i will sue you for slander, defamation, or libel and hung up on that a hole. 
What a Dick. I thought this guy would be a problem, but since i had done such a good job at a reasonable price, ( i Gave him a good deal), I never heard back. He was happy. Until now. UNrelated to the water heater, i suspected his pressure reducing valve at the street had possibly failed and was causing excessive pressure to build up and causing water hammer when fixture valves closed quickly. This is common on the city water meters in my area. We dont have this problem on wells( which most have). I Guess i could of put the expansion tank in when i did the installation, but it didnt seem necessarry at the time. I do recall offering one to them as part of the contract, but they wanted it as cheap as possible and declined. It just pisses me off that these A holes expect me to be responsable for their new unrelated plumbing problems. The lady even addmitted the problem was occuring on the cold line. UH lady I replaced an existing tanked hot water heater, with a tankless. NO leaks. no malfunctioning rinnai, proffessional installation. I am not responsable if you need additional unknown or unexpected work, and that would come from their pocket not mine. But after that old geezer threatened me with his attitude now he is not getting ****. Good luck at getting someone to come and help him now, he will have to call some one from out of the area to come all the way out and solve his new problem. Its going to cost him alot more:laughing:. *******. I dont care if he complains to the license board about me. Hes got nothing. I have a A+ perfect record with the CSLB, and after 6 years in business he is only 1of 2 jerks to ever complain or not pay. 
After that call, now i am starting a local area DO NOT WORK FOR list. I have several plumbing contractor buddies, and several general contractor buddies which i will be contacting about putting their bad customers on that blackball list. I am smart enough to know not to post it on the web, but an anonymous list hanging up at the 2 supply houses i work out of, will let my fellow contractors know who the jerks are. And when they add their bunk customers to the list, it will grow to the benefit of all of us. I can play those games if these bad customers want.:whistling2:


----------



## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

RGB Plumbing said:


> I installed a Rinnai tankless water heater for a customer about 8 months ago. I also added a drain and water line for a Laundry sink, and hauled away his old 100 gal solar water heater.:thumbup: The job turned out great and the customer was happy. I got paid and marked it off as another successful job well done. Today 8 months later ....:whistling2:


If it wasn't for the people, plumbing would be much more fun. If you didn't like the customer in the first place, the second place will be no better.

About 6 months ago, this two-bit remodeler had me install some discontinued euro shower valves that he bought. He's called me twice complaining about them in that whining remodeler voice that drives me freaking crazy. My invoice states I'm not responsible for owner-supplied material, so I told him I couldn't (wouldn't) help him.

Recently, he called and said the copper pipe i soldered on the shower valve blew out and I have to fix it. This was during that deadly freeze/blizzard, so it blew out during the freeze. I told him I would charge him and he called me a nasty name and hung up.

Ever since my American Home Shield thread, bad customers have been haunting me. Some of my worse customer service experiences was AHS customers....whole nother thread there....


----------



## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

This is were setting a SOP (standard operating procedure) of a trip charge and no pricing over the phone come in handy. Also nice to have a receptionist on the phone. People tend not to give her as much grief about pricing cause why would she know she's not a plumber. 
As far as not going out, recall or not... I always go. Just to be sure it's not my problem, and there attorney won't have to bring my name up in any lawsuits. Plus with overall sales down, it's another opportunity to get back in there home to either reassure them that they got the right guy to begin with or snag some work. Either way it usually ends up being a win...


----------



## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

You guys are SSSSSOOOOO RIGHT !! These few HO's can make for a miserable day !!

I checked with my brother ,,the lawyer ,,, about a NATIONAL / WEB BASED o not work for : List . He said we would probably get our asses sued off for liable before it gets off the ground ,,,,,,,,,,, Oh ,but Angie's list is OK ???

NOT FAIR !!!

Cal


----------



## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

ASUPERTECH said:


> This is were setting a SOP (standard operating procedure) of a trip charge and no pricing over the phone come in handy. Also nice to have a receptionist on the phone. People tend not to give her as much grief about pricing cause why would she know she's not a plumber.
> As far as not going out, recall or not... I always go. Just to be sure it's not my problem, and there attorney won't have to bring my name up in any lawsuits. Plus with overall sales down, it's another opportunity to get back in there home to either reassure them that they got the right guy to begin with or snag some work. Either way it usually ends up being a win...


With good customers, I'd be there in a heartbeat, but some customers can rot in hell. 

During slow times, the office staff is the first to go. Anyone can do paperwork and answer the phones....as much as I hate to do it. Office work, that is. Support staff is overhead.



Cal said:


> You guys are SSSSSOOOOO RIGHT !! These few HO's can make for a miserable day !!
> 
> I checked with my brother ,,the lawyer ,,, about a NATIONAL / WEB BASED o not work for : List . He said we would probably get our asses sued off for liable before it gets off the ground ,,,,,,,,,,, Oh ,but Angie's list is OK ???NOT FAIR !!!Cal


Yeah, and you can get more info about a plumber than you can a doctor. Angieslist has started listing doctors, I hear.


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

I had a few this month. I think its economy related. People with no money will always find ways to complain so they don't have to pay.:furious:
It was my fault though. I have written company policies that I follow to help protect me from getting the really bad customers and for awhile I got lazy and I stopped following them...and guess what? It bit me. Now I am back to following my policies 100% and I am avoiding the bad customers again!:thumbup:

My policies that protect me from bad customers.
#1) Every service call has a diagnostic charge, no exceptions.
#2)We are strictly C.O.D. cash, check or credit card, no exceptions.
#3)No warranty on customer-supplied parts.
#4)No haggling about price. If a customer is overly whiney about price, I walk away.


----------



## BatonRougePlumb (Nov 21, 2008)

*Your policies?*



service guy said:


> I had a few this month. I think its economy related. People with no money will always find ways to complain so they don't have to pay.:furious:
> It was my fault though. I have written company policies that I follow to help protect me from getting the really bad customers and for awhile I got lazy and I stopped following them...and guess what? It bit me. Now I am back to following my policies 100% and I am avoiding the bad customers again!:thumbup:
> 
> My policies that protect me from bad customers.
> ...


Every policy is counter-productive with the exception of # 3.


----------



## RGB Plumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

I agree with you guys. I too believe with the state of the economy, all of the but tight money pinchers will try to do anything they can to get something for free. I am an honest contractor who always trys to help and be more than fair with their charges. I am also a solo operator with no employees or people answering the phone. I advertise minimally and get alot of my jobs thru referal. No im not a big shop and with low overhead i can deliver good service at fair price. I am not cheap, but i do charge less(in some cases) than the few large outfits who advertise big and drive around in rolling billboards. The difference with me is you get an experienced adult plumber, licensed, bonded, insured to 2 million, and honest. The other places send out some in experienced kids in their rolling billboards and all they do is screw more stuff up or run up some huge bill. Thats why i dont want or need employees, i just end up having to redo what they did . Someday i would like to grow, but im not sure its worth it. My specialty areas are new construction, remodeling, and repipes. Thats where i can get the big checks. I do service and repairs as well and drain clearing too, any job i can turn a buck on. But with the economy in the dumps i am slow anyhow. I have been doing just enough to stay afloat. No im not getting Rich, but that wasnt the plan anyway. Im a survivor. But with greedy customers trying to squeeze the little bit of blood i have left, I dont know how long i will last.


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

BatonRougePlumb said:


> Every policy is counter-productive with the exception of # 3.


Not in my experience. The policies work. When I follow them, business goes well. When I "bend" them, thats when the bad customers start to slip through and cause problems.
WHy should I drive around for free, and chase money around from deadbeats???:no:
A diagnostic charge to cover travel time and C.O.D. terms are good policies for any service company imo.


----------



## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

service guy said:


> ...
> 
> My policies that protect me from bad customers.
> #1) Every service call has a diagnostic charge, no exceptions.
> ...


Every company I've ever worked for follows those rules. Those are the essence of service work.

I had one lady who wanted a discount because _my_ business was slow. I told her that because my business was slow, I can't afford to give a discount! 

Why would anyone give a discount when they're slow? Do our costs go down when we're slow? Does the bank discount our notes when they're slow? No way.* In fact, I'm going to raise my prices to make up for the loss of business and strengthen my selling skills. *

It is time to get tough.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Today I had a customer while I was draining a water heater, telling me that she only makes $16/hour and everyone else is charging $50-60-70-100 dollars for 15 minutes and leaving.

She grasped that there's costs involved and the like but I thought...


You own a very nice house lady, nice amenities, things that most people can't afford, and you can't pay those who come to YOUR house, driving miles away to fix your house without you going anywhere? 


I charged her $59 for a water heater draining, she had to ask via email before I could do the job.

I replaced a seal on a mansfield toilet and a seat cup/spring on a delta 2 handle upstairs.


I told her I'd "eat" the price of those two parts as I don't mind giving a little for the effort of a simple water heater draining, a heater I installed in 07. Good repeat customers but I won't put up with price haggling the next time they need service. 

I'd be the first to tell them that showing up at their home has a price AND a value, and that's what it costs. If you don't like that, Keep moving through those yellow pages and see how many plumbers care about your best interest.

By no means am I special, but being a one man band allows me to personalize the experience and make it a better experience.


----------



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

service guy said:


> Not in my experience. The policies work. When I follow them, business goes well. When I "bend" them, thats when the bad customers start to slip through and cause problems.
> WHy should I drive around for free, and chase money around from deadbeats???:no:
> A diagnostic charge to cover travel time and C.O.D. terms are good policies for any service company imo.


All of your policies are 100% dead on the "money". Live by them. If you don't you will end up like RGB.

RGB, man I'm sorry but you, based on what you have written, are not cut out for service plumbing. You will be much happier in the new con world. One question why didn't you test the pressure prior to the Rinnai install? I don't install Rinnai but I imagine their warranty has a disclaimer with regard to high pressure. Even if it does not, testing of water pressure prior to installation of ANY water heating device should be sop.


----------



## RGB Plumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

Well, believe it or not i did put a guage on the farthest hose bib, and the pressure was within limits(65lb). They didnt have this problem with the tanked heater and they didnt have this problem with the rinnai i put in until 8 months later. The problem just recently developed and has nothing to do with my installation. According to you im not cut out to do service work, what that should be left to dopes with no experience?. You may think you are mr know it all service man, but you are probably one of those guys whos only done service. I design, install, and complete working plumbing systems in residential and commercial. I have 13 years plumbing experience and have done it all from start to finish. I have worked for service companies as well as new construction companies. Anyone can Replace a water heater and even a monkey can snake a line, so save your conceited better than you attitude for someone else. From my experience just because you can change out a toilet doesnt make you a plumber. Most of the companies in my area use kids just out of high school with little to no experience. They send em out with a mentor for a few jobs then they put em into a rolling billboard and off they go. Now they are "service" plumbers. Like you.


----------



## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

A monkey can not snake a drain line and new can not do service.

I'm on board with you drawing the line with bad customers, though. It just ain't worth the money, sometimes.


----------



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

RGB Plumbing said:


> Well, believe it or not i did put a guage on the farthest hose bib, and the pressure was within limits(65lb). They didnt have this problem with the tanked heater and they didnt have this problem with the rinnai i put in until 8 months later. The problem just recently developed and has nothing to do with my installation. According to you im not cut out to do service work, what that should be left to dopes with no experience?. You may think you are mr know it all service man, but you are probably one of those guys whos only done service. I design, install, and complete working plumbing systems in residential and commercial. I have 13 years plumbing experience and have done it all from start to finish. I have worked for service companies as well as new construction companies. Anyone can Replace a water heater and even a monkey can snake a line, so save your conceited better than you attitude for someone else. From my experience just because you can change out a toilet doesnt make you a plumber. Most of the companies in my area use kids just out of high school with little to no experience. They send em out with a mentor for a few jobs then they put em into a rolling billboard and off they go. Now they are "service" plumbers. Like you.


Really not trying to get in a pissing match here. I was in no way refering to your plumbing skills. I was refering to your customer service skills and the fact that you obviously did not realize this only confirms my original statement.


----------



## BatonRougePlumb (Nov 21, 2008)

*What does your policies cost you?*



service guy said:


> Not in my experience. The policies work. When I follow them, business goes well. When I "bend" them, thats when the bad customers start to slip through and cause problems.
> WHy should I drive around for free, and chase money around from deadbeats???:no:
> A diagnostic charge to cover travel time and C.O.D. terms are good policies for any service company imo.



How much business do you lost because you charge for diagnosing a problem and how much do you save from losing with your policies. Which one has the greater loss?

How much business do you lose from C. O. D. and how much more would you gain by giving credit. Which one has the greater loss?

You should be in business to earn the maximum amount of profit with the least amount of effort. Before you answer these questions you need to put your superstition aside and grab a pencil and paper. Where I work, we are carrying something around $650k in credit. Are receivables are about $40k per month. I don't think my boss would be doing this if he was losing money. Since January 1st, our sales just from service calls is over $300k. Also, all our estimates are free and we charge for diagnosing some problems, but our policy is, if the customer does not want to pay, we go the the job anyway, try to get them to pay, and if they still won't budge, we will diagnose the problem for free to try to sell a big job. Sometimes you have to put your pride and ego aside and think in dollars. Maybe we sell an extra $500k by outwitting the customer. 

.


----------



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

BatonRougePlumb said:


> How much business do you lost because you charge for diagnosing a problem and how much do you save from losing with your policies. Which one has the greater loss?
> 
> How much business do you lose from C. O. D. and how much more would you gain by giving credit. Which one has the greater loss?
> 
> ...


How often do you leave empty handed or do the work for no profit or even a loss just so you don't have to leave empty handed. 

Are you doing a lot of comm service or is it strictly resi service?


----------



## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

BatonRougePlumb said:


> How much business do you lost because you charge for diagnosing a problem and how much do you save from losing with your policies. Which one has the greater loss?
> 
> How much business do you lose from C. O. D. and how much more would you gain by giving credit. Which one has the greater loss?
> 
> ...


Interesting that an employer would give this kind of information to an employee that is not his accountant.


----------



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

300k since Jan 1 is a meaningless number. What was the true profit on that number? 650K in outstanding a/r at 40k per month means you have paper that is up to 19 months old. Your company is going under with numbers like that. In fact with debt that's over a year and half old, why are you still in business?


----------



## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Now hold on here, cowboys.


----------



## BatonRougePlumb (Nov 21, 2008)

*We do every type of plumber.*



smellslike$tome said:


> How often do you leave empty handed or do the work for no profit or even a loss just so you don't have to leave empty handed.
> 
> Are you doing a lot of comm service or is it strictly resi service?


Your question brings up a great point. I wish I had the exact numbers. I'm just taking a wild guess, but I'll say when we go to 10 free estimate, or diagnose 10 problems for free, we sell something to 7 out of 10 customers.

I'll guess and say we sell an average of $5,000 when we consider selling furnaces for $3,000 to $4,000 and we sell drains systems and repipes for $5,000 to $10,000.

I go on 10 FREE diagnostic and estimate jobs. I close a sale on 70% of my jobs.

These are my hands full of money 7 x $5,000 = $35,000

These are my empty hands 3 x 0 = 0

Let me analyze your hands as I look into my crystal ball.


You get 10 calls and you charge for diagnosing a problem. Four of your leads tell you to take a hike. You have 6 leads left. Your closing ratio is the same as mine. It is 70%.

70% of 6 leads = 4.2 leads x $5,000 = $21,000.

I made $14,000 more than you by giving free estimates.


----------



## BatonRougePlumb (Nov 21, 2008)

*We have a sales competition board!*



Killertoiletspider said:


> Interesting that an employer would give this kind of information to an employee that is not his accountant.


My boss is my uncle so I hear the most minute of details all the way down to his love affairs.


----------



## BatonRougePlumb (Nov 21, 2008)

*No way Jose!*



smellslike$tome said:


> 300k since Jan 1 is a meaningless number. What was the true profit on that number? 650K in outstanding a/r at 40k per month means you have paper that is up to 19 months old. Your company is going under with numbers like that. In fact with debt that's over a year and half old, why are you still in business?


It is not debt. It is credit or 'money in the bank'. Think of it as a savings account you draw from each month.

Our company has been in business for over 50 years. We carry paper up to 4 years with no interest. We do absolutely no credit check except to make sure the customer actually owns the home.

I came to this forum 'in peace' and thought I was shy, but after reading many posts, I see a lot of myths. I come from a family of business people, engineers, doctors, and have been working week ends and summers in plumbing for for only 4 years. I'm only 18, but after watching my boss I think I could start my own plumbing company tomorrow and be VERY successful. Think about this for a while. What is the difference between my uncle and plumbers who claim they have no business today. Why can we sell more than $340k in 4 weeks (it will be $340 when tallied) and other plumbers claim there is no work. Why can we give $650k in credit and other plumber can't.

I read a post in another forum regarding giving credit. The plumber said he has been giving credit for many years and his loss was less than 3%. When you consider you will close about 20% to 30% more sales, by giving credit, you will have absolutely no loss at all. The only loss you will have is not giving credit.



I don't get that personal with my boss about the net, but I heard 25% to 30% a few times. I can't say our prices are higher than other plumbers, but I think we get more money from each customer and we close almost every potential sale. This helps increase the net.


----------



## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

BatonRougePlumb said:


> We carry paper up to 4 years with no interest. We do absolutely no credit check except to make sure the customer actually owns the home.


 That is probably to bypass state and federal lending laws. What kind of collertal or loan agreement is there? I betcha there's a lien on the house.



> I come from a family of business people, engineers, doctors, and have been working week ends and summers in plumbing for for only 4 years.
> 
> I'm only 18, but after watching my boss I think I could start my own plumbing company tomorrow and be VERY successful.


BWAHAHA!



> Why can we sell more than $340k in 4 weeks (it will be $340 when tallied) and other plumbers claim there is no work.
> 
> Why can we give $650k in credit and other plumber can't.


Why?



> I read a post in another forum regarding giving credit. The plumber said he has been giving credit for many years and his loss was less than 3%.


 My loss was $340.00. I forgave a debt from a sailor on the cocaine.



> When you consider you will close about 20% to 30% more sales, by giving credit, you will have absolutely no loss at all. The only loss you will have is not giving credit.


That's a point taken.


----------



## BatonRougePlumb (Nov 21, 2008)

*So many questions?*



Plumber said:


> That is probably to bypass state and federal lending laws. What kind of collertal or loan agreement is there? I betcha there's a lien on the house.
> 
> BWAHAHA!
> 
> ...


I don't know the legal aspects of giving credit, but perhaps like stores with 0% interest we are doing the same.

I apologize for mentioning my family if this statement sounded like bragging, but this statement was to explain that I get a lot of information from family members that run businesses and they are passionate about what they do, and I tend to trust the information I get from my relatives. I am passionate about sales because it looks like sales are the easiest type of work and sales people make the highest amount of money in most companies.

Maybe I am just a big liar.

"But, what if it is true?"

There is a popular book called Freakonomics. It is quite interesting, and you may learn to think about analyzing things in a different way. The book taught me that what the general population thinks is the logical reason for a cause is often the wrong reason. The book makes analyzing things more fun. It even has one or two chapters that teaches you how to build a syndicated cocaine business and collect your $340.


----------



## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

BatonRougePlumb said:


> I don't know the legal aspects of giving credit, but perhaps like stores with 0% interest we are doing the same.


No. 



> ... It even has one or two chapters that teaches you how to build a syndicated cocaine business and collect your $340.


I repaired his sewer on his last remaining house. He's a captain.


----------



## BatonRougePlumb (Nov 21, 2008)

*I'm sorry!*



Plumber said:


> No.
> 
> I repaired his sewer on his last remaining house. He's a captain.


I sure have to apologize to you a lot! What what I thinking?


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

BatonRougePlumb said:


> You get 10 calls and you charge for diagnosing a problem. Four of your leads tell you to take a hike. You have 6 leads left. *Your closing ratio is the same as mine.* It is 70%.
> 
> 70% of 6 leads = 4.2 leads x $5,000 = $21,000.
> 
> I made $14,000 more than you by giving free estimates.


The bolded is where your analysis went wrong. See, by charging a diagnostic, I already weed out virtually ALL the non-closer calls, *that is the whole point of it.* A diagnistic charge or trip charge or whatever you wanna call it, weeds out the tirekickers and people who get 10 estimates. So even though I am higher priced than average in my area, my closing rate is near 100% because I am so efficient at weeding out the cheapskates with my policies.


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Free estimates are ok for a very large company that does heavy volume. For a small company like mine, it is nothing but a profit killer.

Here is a good article about it:

http://contractingbusiness.com/service/cb_imp_13003/


----------



## BatonRougePlumb (Nov 21, 2008)

*I am assuming that we are equal even if.....*



service guy said:


> The bolded is where your analysis went wrong. See, by charging a diagnostic, I already weed out virtually ALL the non-closer calls, *that is the whole point of it.* A diagnistic charge or trip charge or whatever you wanna call it, weeds out the tirekickers and people who get 10 estimates. So even though I am higher priced than average in my area, my closing rate is near 100% because I am so efficient at weeding out the cheapskates with my policies.


you are better and assuming we are identical twins with identical twin customers. My twin believes he can judge a tire kicker over the phone. People wear many faces to disguise themselves. People with money put on an act to make you think they are cheap and people with money put on an act like they are big spenders. 

A customer calls you and says he is getting 10 estimates. This could be just an act so you lower your price.

A customer tells you he does not to pay for an estimate. Maybe he does not know as much as you about why he should pay. Maybe you can't do a good job selling him that he should pay for the estimate or diagnosis. Maybe, this guy who does not understand about paying for a diagnosis owns a thousand homes and is a huge spender and you just lost a few hundred thousand dollars because your judgment system was out-of-whack.

This one is real serious. Maybe the customer has a low priority for paying for a diagnosis because he does not know the value of what is wrong. He thinks he needs a 5 cent washer and why should he pay you $95 to tell him this. When you arrive he needs a $10,000 job that has a huge priority. This cheap guy who would not pay $95 signs the contract. IS HE STILL A TIRE-KICKER? You don't know and you will never know until you get to the job. Are you really willing to gamble losing $10,000 because someone would not pay you $95. It is economics!

If my boss gives me a call tomorrow and the customer refuses to pay for a diagnosis, I am going to the job to try to sell $5,000 to $10,000 anyway. I would think of myself as a fool if I sat in a coffee shop while some other plumber gets the job and smiles as he waves at me through the coffee shop window. For you, the business owner, a $10,000 can buy a verynice used truck, pay a few months rent in advance, buy a new jet ski, or a motorcycle. Buy something for the wife if I can catch one.

I have relatives who do a lot of gambling. I am always amazed at how they will lose $20,000 in one trip to a casino. Then, my parents will yell and scream at each other because my mother wants to buy a $5,000 couch set. Put this in reverse for business. A business owner will utilize most of his time scratching his butt to figure out how to pay his debts when he should be utilizing this time to make so much money he could pay his debts and have so much money left over he would not know what to do with it. My point; $95 is important to you. $5,000 is not. You have more positive thoughts about the $95 than you do the $5,000.

You may be able to give me a thousand reasons why you should not turn a lead into a sale and I may be able to give you a thousand reasons why you should turn every lead into a sale. Who is going to make more money?

I rest my case. This is getting like the Nibco valves. The jury is still out on that case.


----------



## BatonRougePlumb (Nov 21, 2008)

*My twin brother needs serious help!*



service guy said:


> Free estimates are ok for a very large company that does heavy volume. For a small company like mine, it is nothing but a profit killer.
> 
> Here is a good article about it:
> 
> http://contractingbusiness.com/service/cb_imp_13003/


Please tell me you made a mistake and posted the wrong link. This is the lamest post I've seen by awanna be expert. I heard of this dude's sale training before and this is the first of his stuff I've seen. Real Scary!

This advice is another sad attempt to judge the customer over the phone. When you have a customer on the phone you have to tell them what they want to hear. People don't give a poop about what your service charge, trip charge, or any other charge is. They only want to know how much they are going to have to pay to solve their problem. So this dude is telling you to baffle your customers and scare the crap out of them by telling them they will have to pay a trip charge, or whatever.

Dispatcher:

"Sir, we have a trip charge of $65."

Customer:

"I don't want to pay no damn trip charge, estimate charge, service charge, or nothing. Who the hell to you think you are? All I want to pay for is to fix my damn problem. Give me an exact price for what the job is going to cost, or I'm going to call someone else.

Dispatcher:

I'm sorry sir, but that is our company policy.

Customer:

Goodbye

Customer:

Hello, I need someone to fix my problem.

Dispatcher:

Sure, we' be glad to give you a free estimate and we'll be there in 30 minutes.

Plumber:

Well sir, this is going to be $20,000.

Customer:

Where do I sign?


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

If that works for you that is great. Personally, I think a 70% closing rate is horrible. I prefer my closing rate of 99%. I do the work on virtually every job, I really don't like driving around to dead calls with 30% of my time.


----------



## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

BatonRougePlumb said:


> ...
> Dispatcher:
> Sure, we' be glad to give you a free estimate and we'll be there in 30 minutes.
> 
> ...


In your fantasy world, maybe. In the real world:

The customer would say, "$20,000.00! For something I could do on a drunken Saturday?! Thanks for the solution to the problem, by the way! C-YA!


----------



## BatonRougePlumb (Nov 21, 2008)

*That was not a real number.*



service guy said:


> If that works for you that is great. Personally, I think a 70% closing rate is horrible. I prefer my closing rate of 99%. I do the work on virtually every job, I really don't like driving around to dead calls with 30% of my time.


The number was hypothetical. I don't know what your close ratio is and did not want to insult you. We have about a 90% to 95% close ratio and we give free estimates and free diagnostics. The ratio is irrelevant to the number of leads you lose. I don't see where the number of employees matters. I thought you were talking about taking on another employee several months ago.

I work in a truck with a more experienced plumber. We get straight commission. So, you may say we are an independent one horse operation like you. When we sell a job, we lose money from doing service calls and our company has to blow off all the calls we can't get to just like you. So, we have x number of crews on a job and we have x number of calls we are blowing off for each crew that is on a large job. It is all relevant. 

If you clean drains for $100 you have to clean 100 drains to make $10,000. To clean 100 drains at 5 drains per day would take you 20 days. To gross $10,000 for one large job could take you less than two or three days and you save about $500 in gasoline and overhead.

We have a huge database that goes back about 30 years. When I look up some customer's records, went to a home 20 times for $45, $50, $100, $75, etc. and their gross sales were less than $1200. That is an average of $60 per trip. I'm betting this company lost money on every call and hoped they would sell this customer something big someday. These customers are useless. Who wants a thousand customer who won't spend more than a few hundred dollars? We are in business for the big sales.


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

PCplumber, is that you?:yes: Its ok, you don't have to hide behind a different username here.


----------



## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

BatonRougePlumb said:


> We are in business for the big sales.


You wouldn't know how to handle it.


----------



## BatonRougePlumb (Nov 21, 2008)

Plumber said:


> In your fantasy world, maybe. In the real world:
> 
> The customer would say, "$20,000.00! For something I could do on a drunken Saturday?! Thanks for the solution to the problem, by the way! C-YA!


In one truck, yesterday, the plumber and I sold a job to a customer for $21,000 to remodel her bathroom. All we are doing is stripping a 3-wall shower stall, shower pan, cultured marble wall, tiling the floor, and painting the bathroom. We looked up the customer's record yesterday and this customer spent a total of $46,000 with our company. One hour later, we sold a copper repipe for $7800. An hour later, we sold the replacement of a drainage system for $6600, and a few hours later, we sold another drain system for $4800. We have several other crews that sell for this company, but nobody is as good as the plumber I work with.

I don't have an ego problem, don't want anyone to pat me on the back, and don't need to exaggerate, or lie. The people I work with are this good and other contractors cannot achieve this type of results without coming to the realization that there must be some businesses on this planet that can do this. 

Last year, the highest day we had was we sold $80,000 in one day just from service calls. We started in the morning by selling a customer the replacement of drains for two tiny house on a lot and a 140 foot sewer for $30,000. Then we soold another huge job for a two story home to replace her FAU, drains, and copper repipe for something like $25,000. This is something that is very ironic. The customer we sold $21,000 to yesterday, was the same customer we sold the $21,000 to yesterday. Then we sold more jobs I can't remember. 

The truck I work in sells no less than an average of $7,000 to $18,000 every day. We are geared up to do this. The statement that we do our own installations was only for an analogy. My truck does not do the installation work. We only do service calls, estimates, and close sales.

I have no reason to lie or exaggerate. I don't get my jollies from writing posts and I am only trying to tell you what is really possible.


----------



## brad7596 (Nov 1, 2008)

sounds like pc plumber to me simple rule is if you give free quotes you lose time on doing actual work which is a profit killer for small sole traders


----------



## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

BatonRougePlumb said:


> In one truck, yesterday...


Prove it. Give us the website address of this mega-company.


----------



## BatonRougePlumb (Nov 21, 2008)

*I apologize and do not understand.*



brad7596 said:


> sounds like pc plumber to me simple rule is if you give free quotes you lose time on doing actual work which is a profit killer for small sole traders


Sorry. My mistake! I am on a few other forums and this one is the weirdest. I am on a sales forum and we write posts that take 20 minutes to read and I have never seen one person come even close to insulting someone as you people do on this forum. When we write about an idea not one person discredits the idea. Everyone asks questions and discusses issues regarding the idea.

I can see why people on this forum keep asking the same questions and nobody answers. Most posts have five word answer that do not make sense, or they crack a joke. It is because only a few people think they know the answers and the only thing other members can do is insult people who try to help. Sorry, but I can tell by the writing of your posts I make more money as a helper than most of you gross running your own business.

I have to be around people with a positive attitude. After this post I am logging out for the last time. This is the reason ToUtahNow is the only person in this forum with wisdom. Sorry, if that insults anybody but that is the way it is and since many of you go to the Ridgid Forum, I will log out of there for the last time also. You people have a weird way of banning together to push away people trying to help you so you can talk write posts about nothing. In your eyes, since you cannot achieve something, you keep posting to each other that it is impossible. Very sad!

Signing out for the last time.


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I don't think BRP is PC Plumber.


----------



## brad7596 (Nov 1, 2008)

i have been known in my earlier days to have gone to give a quote and arrive with one or two other blokes already there( that is called rude in my book) and chasing the cheapest quote. Im not that hard up for work i can take a day off and spend it with my children which is a priceless investment


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> I don't think BRP is PC Plumber.


Its his twin brother then.:whistling2:


----------



## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

All of our bigger jobs ($3,000.-$25,000.) have come directly from free estimates and the closing ratio is very good. It is not 90% - but closer to 70%. I read somewhere that if you are closing at 80% and above your prices are too cheap.

If we don't land a job, most of the time it is due to it costing more than the HO realized. Keep in mind, estimates our scheduled at our convenience and within 10 miles of our shop.

We don't offer free estimates on small service work. If a customer has to know the price, I will give them a ball park if I can. We are going to institute a trip charge, but we will be waiving it if the customer gets the work done.

If you can stay busy, collect your trip fee, make your hourly rate, and are building your customer base - good for you, it works. 

Free estimates and T&M also works in building a business. We have done it! The only reason we are changing is because we are in an area where the hourly rate is just below $100.00. Going over that $100.00 is a barrier that the area is not ready for pschologically. Also, we want to streamline billing in the field.


----------



## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> I don't think BRP is PC Plumber.


He definitely does not write like any 18 year old I know! In one of his earlier posts he mentions a wife, then he is 18 and posts 'if he can catch one.' Something's not right.


----------



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

batonrougeplumb said:


> your Question Brings Up A Great Point. I Wish I Had The Exact Numbers. I'm Just Taking A Wild Guess, But I'll Say When We Go To 10 Free Estimate, Or Diagnose 10 Problems For Free, We Sell Something To 7 Out Of 10 Customers.
> 
> I'll Guess And Say We Sell An Average Of $5,000 When We Consider Selling Furnaces For $3,000 To $4,000 And We Sell Drains Systems And Repipes For $5,000 To $10,000.
> 
> ...


Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!


----------



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

service Guy said:


> the Bolded Is Where Your Analysis Went Wrong. See, By Charging A Diagnostic, I Already Weed Out Virtually All The Non-closer Calls, *that Is The Whole Point Of It.* A Diagnistic Charge Or Trip Charge Or Whatever You Wanna Call It, Weeds Out The Tirekickers And People Who Get 10 Estimates. So Even Though I Am Higher Priced Than Average In My Area, My Closing Rate Is Near 100% Because I Am So Efficient At Weeding Out The Cheapskates With My Policies.


Right! Right! Right!


----------



## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Interesting that an employer would give this kind of information to an employee that is not his accountant.


KTS- Where I normally agree with many of your points (being a service plumber myself), my employer is great about shearing the $ figures with the entire comp. 
What better way for a tech. to support his employers prices than to know why he has to charge them. We also understand where we need to be for raises or added benefits, we know when one of the guys isn't pulling his own, and we all then have a vested interest in either weeding out the trash or teaching and supporting a new prospective tech. Collectively we have also during this economic down turn, decided which benefits we could live with out to keep us afloat.
Information = knowledge & knowledge = power. 
Empower your employee's so they can make the right choices for themselves and the company and it may just lead to a few less gray hairs.


----------



## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> I don't think BRP is PC Plumber.


I'd bet money on it that he is.

Same stuff, right down to the "I don't have to do this. everyone else appreciates me. this board is full of losers. goodbye." crap.


----------



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

I need to listen to my own sermons I guess. The day was not fully booked today at the start of the day. Call comes in and the guy absolutely insists on a price over the phone. 99 times out of 100 when this happens we simply politely suggest that we are not the company for them. Today I bit. My wife talked to him initially, told me the situation and I called him back about 15 minutes later. Had a seemingly productive conversation as much as was possible over the phone. I gave him what would be a typical cost for what he was describing including the additional cost for code upgrades which would include at the very least a thermal expansion tank. I finally sealed the deal by telling him that if he authorized the work that I would "waive" the service charge. He says ok come on out. As I am about to turn into his driveway about an hour later, the phone rings. At first I think he's just checking to see if I would make it on time (I did) but when I tell him where I am there is a silent pause and he tells me he will just write me a check for the service call. Seems that in the hour it took me to get there he called around and found someone who "had done some stuff for him before" who would install a 40 gal ng water heater in a crawl space for $850. In my market a 40 gallon Rheem (which was what he had and what he was quoted for by me) plus a pair of 3/4" shark bite couplings (not what I would have ever done but I'm sure is exactly what he got) plus tax will come in at $475 +. This means the guy will walk away with $375 or less. He also informed me that the "guy" had told him that the thermal expansion tank was not a code requirement and was only required on a "new installation". What did he think he was going to get, an old installation? I told him that the expansion tank absolutely is a code requirement and that he is recieving plumbing advice from someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. He shrugged. My blood is heating up fast because I know I've just been low balled by an unlicensed, handyman, hack who is not qualified and has no legal authority to touch that tank. I explain to the ho that if a problem resulting in a fire should arise that his insurance company will investigate and when they find out that the source of the fire was a brand new ng wh, they will look for the permit and finding none will have perfectly justifiable grounds to refuse to pay for anything. He shrugged.

So here it is 10:07 pm and I'm still steaming about something that was completely avoidable had I simply followed my own advice.

We don't come out for free and we don't price ANYTHING over the phone. 

Well maybe this will hold me over for another 6 months until I have another slow day.


----------



## solarman.net (Feb 2, 2009)

Plumber said:


> Every company I've ever worked for follows those rules. Those are the essence of service work.
> 
> I had one lady who wanted a discount because _my_ business was slow. I told her that because my business was slow, I can't afford to give a discount!
> 
> ...


 
That's the ticket !!!


----------



## solarman.net (Feb 2, 2009)

BatonRougePlumb said:


> Please tell me you made a mistake and posted the wrong link. This is the lamest post I've seen by awanna be expert. I heard of this dude's sale training before and this is the first of his stuff I've seen. Real Scary!
> 
> This advice is another sad attempt to judge the customer over the phone. When you have a customer on the phone you have to tell them what they want to hear. People don't give a poop about what your service charge, trip charge, or any other charge is. They only want to know how much they are going to have to pay to solve their problem. So this dude is telling you to baffle your customers and scare the crap out of them by telling them they will have to pay a trip charge, or whatever.
> 
> ...


 
We have a dispatch fee ( which can be waived if the customer barks ) . That is waived after the technician diagnoses the job and the clients accept the price . On a rare occasion we will quote over the phone for what sounds ike "simple " calls .. But if it turns in to a more complicated issue the technicain is to make the customer aware .. the customer signs off on all work and pricing BEFORE it is started . We also note items that may need some attention with pricing , if the customer declines , we have them in initial that item ... 
I know it sounds like alot of paperwork in the field but it has won battles for us !!! Note everything on the work order and have the client sign it .. 

In 20 years we have learned that customers get a worse taste in their mouth if you quote over the phone and then have to charge more , then to tell them "our technician will conduct a full evaluation andf give you a full written quote prior to performing the work " So long as you have the right people answering your phone .. 
We have a customer base of 50k ... they're ok with it :thumbsup:


----------



## solarman.net (Feb 2, 2009)

service guy said:


> The bolded is where your analysis went wrong. See, by charging a diagnostic, I already weed out virtually ALL the non-closer calls, *that is the whole point of it.* A diagnistic charge or trip charge or whatever you wanna call it, weeds out the tirekickers and people who get 10 estimates. So even though I am higher priced than average in my area, my closing rate is near 100% because I am so efficient at weeding out the cheapskates with my policies.


 
Wow I was hoping someone was gonna get it !!!!


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

johnny said:


> How often do you walk with the diagnostic charge???


Your answer was already written above.


> "My closing rate is around 99%."


So very rarely do I just get the diagnostic charge.


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

solarman. hows the solar business doing in your area?


----------



## BatonRougePlumb (Nov 21, 2008)

*You miss the whole point!*

This is supposed to be some friendly advice, but may have a tone of sarcasm for those who don't understand the seriousness of causing their own losses and then scratching their butts to pay their bills when they caused themselves to lose more than a hundred thousand dollars in one year.

If you are so good and you can tell the outcome of a sale before you go to a customer's house you are in the wrong business since you say you can tell a customer will not buy because they do not want to pay for a service charge or a diagnostic charge.

You cannot tell the outcome of a sale until after you attempt to actually close the sale.

You cannot close a large sale unless you go to the customer's home.

You have the potential to close a sale if you, AT LEAST, go to the customer's home.

You will definitely not close a sale if you do not go to the customer's home.

You know absolutely nothing about the true nature of the customer until you actually go through an ENTIRE PRESENTATION.

You will lose more money for not closing one sale than you can collect in service and diagnostic charges for an entire year.

One super cheap customer may have friends or relatives who could give you a million dollars in business.

You have to make the time to go to every customer. Nobody on this planet can tell the outcome by talking to a person on the phone.

No professional business in the world would pay money to advertise and allow their sales people to blow customers off on the phone because they sound cheap, or because the customer is not as smart as you, meaning the customer does not know why he should pay for an estimate or a diagnosis charge. Explaining this is part of the sales process.

I am always amazed at how people start businesses and look for reasons not to do business. I went to buy some plastic bags at a wholesaler last week. We drove 30 miles and when we arrived they did not want to sell us the bags because we did not call in the order, they did not take credit cards, and they would not take my check because it was a personal check.

So you start your business write a big list of reasons not to do business with the customer. Great! I will be making my list of reasons to service every customer. I will wash my customers windows if that is what it takes to make them happy. It is very strange how we are in the service business and yet we are not 'service-oriented.'

Every time you blow off a customer, for any reason, you are blowing up many more potential sales. You've probably heard the saying:

"Your mouth is in action before your brain is in gear."

Try getting your mouth to say the 'yes' word before the 'no word." 

Who is going to close more sales. The plumber who who goes to every lead, or the plumber who thinks he is smart enough to determine the outcome during a telephone conversation?


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

BRP what made you come back, I thought you did not like it here?


----------



## WestCoastPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

BatonRougePlumb said:


> This is supposed to be some friendly advice, but may have a tone of sarcasm for those who don't understand the seriousness of causing their own losses and then scratching their butts to pay their bills when they caused themselves to lose more than a hundred thousand dollars in one year.
> 
> If you are so good and you can tell the outcome of a sale before you go to a customer's house you are in the wrong business since you say you can tell a customer will not buy because they do not want to pay for a service charge or a diagnostic charge.
> 
> ...


 

hi leonard :whistling2:


----------



## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

*"Someday this war's gonna end"*

*"charlie don't surf!"*


----------



## BatonRougePlumb (Nov 21, 2008)

*I apologize for the misunderstanding!*



Ron The Plumber said:


> BRP what made you come back, I thought you did not like it here?


I thought I said something like there are too many negative thoughts and I like to be around people with positive thoughts. Please don't try to read between the lines and try to figure me out. You will go insane.

I hope you accept my apology.


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

BatonRougePlumb said:


> Please don't try to read between the lines and try to figure me out. You will go insane.
> 
> I hope you accept my apology.





BatonRougePlumb said:


> Signing out for the last time.


Was not asking for an apology,

How far off was I when you say read between the lines? or was you saying that for that particular day and time?


----------



## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

Why not agree to disagree? 

Personally, I like companies that want to charge a service fee and dismiss price shopping consumers over the telephone because we do pick up a lot of business this way. When we win over a customer, they usually become loyal customers and refer us to others.

When a customer has been burned once by a trip fee company, they assume we are all alike and will not risk using a 'trip fee' company again. The 'trip fee' is the customers way of weeding out the gouging contractors. This knife cuts both ways.

So just maybe, when a customer asks about a trip fee, he is really trying to determine if you are a gouging contractor.  Being judged this way sounds unfair doesn't it?


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Plumbcrazy said:


> Why not agree to disagree?
> 
> Personally, I like companies that want to charge a service fee and dismiss price shopping consumers over the telephone because we do pick up a lot of business this way. When we win over a customer, they usually become loyal customers and refer us to others.
> 
> ...



That is one way to look at it. But here is another:
WHY SHOULD I DRIVE WITH MY KNOWLEDGE, LICENSE, EXPERIENCE AND SKILLS AND $50,000+ WORTH OF TRUCK, TOOLS, STOCK AND EQUIPMENT TO A STRANGER'S HOUSE FOR FREE TO GIVE THEM A BID ON A SERVICE CALL???:no: I've been there, done that...DONE WITH IT! I have been working 60 hours/week for the past 6 weeks and turning calls away daily. The diagnostic charge hasn't slowed me down, but it has helped me decide which calls to hang up on and which ones I'll be going out to meet. 
*I can't possibly go to every call that comes in, so I weed out the callers with my PROFESSIONAL policies.* If someone thinks I am a "gouger" because I charge to come out and assess their job, they are free to call you or someone else. You can have those people.:laughing: I am busy going on calls to people who VALUE MY TIME AND PAY ME FOR IT!:thumbsup:


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Here is an actual call I received today, and an example of why I have the policies I do to protect me from whacko customers.
I was in the middle of $3600 sewer and water service replacement. And I had to stop and take a call.

"Hello, this is Carl's Plumbing, how may I help you?"

•"Yeah, hi, I had a plumbing contractor come out and do some work on my house and what I'd like to do is tell you what they did and you can tell me if he overcharged me or not."

"Umm, no, all contractors charge differently, it isn't my place to tell another contractor what to charge."

•"But, I'll just list you what he did and you can tell me if you think overcharged or not."

"No, it is none of my business what he charged you."

•"Well, I know, but could you just tell me if you think the price for the listed work sounds high?"

"NO. I can't do that." **CLICK!**:hammer:

I hung up on this idiot immediately. This is just one example of the whack-jobs that call me up daily and I have to weed through them, so I do.:yes:


----------



## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

service guy said:


> Here is an actual call I received today, and an example of why I have the policies I do to protect me from whacko customers.
> I was in the middle of $3600 sewer and water service replacement. And I had to stop and take a call.
> 
> "Hello, this is Carl's Plumbing, how may I help you?"
> ...


Carl, your problem is you are too nice to people, after his initial question my response would be this " He didn't charge you enough"


----------



## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

service guy said:


> That is one way to look at it. But here is another:
> WHY SHOULD I DRIVE WITH MY KNOWLEDGE, LICENSE, EXPERIENCE AND SKILLS AND $50,000+ WORTH OF TRUCK, TOOLS, STOCK AND EQUIPMENT TO A STRANGER'S HOUSE FOR FREE TO GIVE THEM A BID ON A SERVICE CALL???:no: I've been there, done that...DONE WITH IT! I have been working 60 hours/week for the past 6 weeks and turning calls away daily. The diagnostic charge hasn't slowed me down, but it has helped me decide which calls to hang up on and which ones I'll be going out to meet.
> *I can't possibly go to every call that comes in, so I weed out the callers with my PROFESSIONAL policies.* If someone thinks I am a "gouger" because I charge to come out and assess their job, they are free to call you or someone else. You can have those people.:laughing: I am busy going on calls to people who VALUE MY TIME AND PAY ME FOR IT!:thumbsup:


I was thinking along those lines today. Here we are, complete strangers going to a house we've never seen to do work for people we've never met to solve their problems by risking our health, money, and time.

How much is that worth?

Would the price complainers do it for less?


----------



## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

service guy said:


> That is one way to look at it. But here is another:
> WHY SHOULD I DRIVE WITH MY KNOWLEDGE, LICENSE, EXPERIENCE AND SKILLS AND $50,000+ WORTH OF TRUCK, TOOLS, STOCK AND EQUIPMENT TO A STRANGER'S HOUSE FOR FREE TO GIVE THEM A BID ON A SERVICE CALL???:no: I've been there, done that...DONE WITH IT! I have been working 60 hours/week for the past 6 weeks and turning calls away daily. The diagnostic charge hasn't slowed me down, but it has helped me decide which calls to hang up on and which ones I'll be going out to meet.
> *I can't possibly go to every call that comes in, so I weed out the callers with my PROFESSIONAL policies.* If someone thinks I am a "gouger" because I charge to come out and assess their job, they are free to call you or someone else. You can have those people.:laughing: I am busy going on calls to people who VALUE MY TIME AND PAY ME FOR IT!:thumbsup:


I agree with you to a point. When you are busy, your method is one way of weeding out deadbeat customers. I spend a little more time on the phone and some (few) are weeded out immediately, however many have potential. All I can say, the ones we weed out, I'll never know if they could of led to something big. I do know most of the customers we took a chance on became good regular customers. Our demeanor in the customer's home warms them over. 

By doing this, when the economy tanks - we have a much larger customer base to draw from.

When I send out mailings with $10.00 off, do you know who saves them to use? 9/10 it's the Doctor/Lawyer/CPA crowd. Never the housewife of a blue collar worker.


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

I agree to a point also with plumbcrazy and pcplumber. Its true that being at the customer's house is the most effective way to get the sale, bar none.:thumbsup:
Of course if work slows down for awhile, the first thing I do is lower or drop the diagnostic charge. And usually only a minority of service calls end up being a waste of time. But as long as I am overwhelmed with calls, I won't risk going out for nothing.
Maybe if I only serviced a small, suburban area, I wouldn't worry so much about wasting my time driving around for free. But my territory is fairly large, and difficult roads, traffic, etc. 

_So if a customer wants me to commit to putting them in the schedule and driving out to their house, I expect them to commit something too._ That is all.


----------



## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

service guy said:


> Here is an actual call I received today, and an example of why I have the policies I do to protect me from whacko customers.
> I was in the middle of $3600 sewer and water service replacement. And I had to stop and take a call.
> 
> "Hello, this is Carl's Plumbing, how may I help you?"
> ...


The answer to that problem is an office line with an answering service or machine and a new cell phone #. Only give out your cell phone to those who you fell need it.


----------



## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

service guy said:


> I agree to a point also with plumbcrazy and pcplumber. Its true that being at the customer's house is the most effective way to get the sale, bar none.:thumbsup:
> Of course if work slows down for awhile, the first thing I do is lower or drop the diagnostic charge. And usually only a minority of service calls end up being a waste of time. But as long as I am overwhelmed with calls, I won't risk going out for nothing.
> Maybe if I only serviced a small, suburban area, I wouldn't worry so much about wasting my time driving around for free. But my territory is fairly large, and difficult roads, traffic, etc.
> 
> _So if a customer wants me to commit to putting them in the schedule and driving out to their house, I expect them to commit something too._ That is all.


Perhaps I wasn't 100% clear. Free according to the following:

1. Fairly close to our office (5-10 minutes) or close to a job we are responding to.
2. Does not interfere with money making activities.
3. On our time schedule.
4. Possible promise of a 'profitable' job. Free estimates are for jobs that involve many tasks (ex. install toilet, possible lav. faucet replacements, tub/shower valve, and their thinking about a recirc pump.) This is worth trying to get!

The shopper who really just wants the cheapest price. NO! I have asked on the phone, "Are you looking for the cheapest price?" yeah, "Sorry, we can't help you, I know we are not the cheapest" Can you just give me a price? "NO"

The shopper who is afraid of being ripped off. I will give a price over the phone. "I need a new water heater, what is it going to cost?" May I have your name and address? (If they give it to me, we move on.) Did someone refer our company to you? (If yes, I know this customer is not price shopping, they just want to know what they are in for.) I ask a few questions, and then tell them "based on what you told me, the price is $$$; however, if conditions are different, the price will change. Our plumber will let you know if this is the case." At this point, the customer knows we are showing up with a water heater and the minimum price is what I have quoted.


----------



## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

Plumbcrazy said:


> Perhaps I wasn't 100% clear. Free according to the following:
> 
> 1. Fairly close to our office (5-10 minutes) or close to a job we are responding to.
> 2. Does not interfere with money making activities.
> ...




Do you think your tech that your sending out there after giving that price over the phone has a real chance in [email protected]#$ of getting any more out of that job than you quoted? If I was your tech., we would be having words if you clipped me off at the knees like that, or best case cenario it would end up being a unmotivating action that especially if continued to be practiced could effect my attitude. which would definetly effect *our* over all sales. @ that point I'm just a stupid day laborer feeling he's been patronized with hrs. of wasted time on schooling, product research and training, and motivational talks RE: add on sales, or upgrades. Yes your costomer may feel better having some sort of $, but now I would have to fight tooth and nail to bring that heater up to code or get them to upgrade to a 10 yr. :furious:
Your guys need to feel both accountabilty and responsability for there actions during both good times and bad. I strongly encourage *you and others *who give priceing over the phone to really think about the full ramifications of your actions. There are ways around pricing over the phone.
1. Receptionist- doesn't know plumbing, just sets calls & dispatches plumbers. Has no ideal how much things cost or how long these things take. "Play Dumb":whistling2:
2. If trip charge gets in the way of the call, give receptionist authority to apply trip charge/ diognostic- assessment fee toward work completed.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

#1 In my experience, the only customers who want free estimates are the ones with no money, or just want free plumbing advice, Want to price shop every guy in town for the lowest bidder etc etc. I learned all these things the hard way with my first business.

#2 If only 1 in 20 customers doesn't pay his bill, it will wipe out the profit you mage on the previous 19 with all of the un-funded overhead from that non-paying job. I find that customers who demand credit are usually the same ones that fall into the same category as the ones I discussed in #1.

Even if you assume a 100% paid rate (which ain't gonna happen, not even close) you are still losing because of the time value of money. $100 now is better than $100 6 months from now. Inflation aside, you can use cash money right now to buy more trucks, equipment, or advertising which all much you more money sooner.

Now, if you have setup an underwriting process that works, and charge enough interest to make up for all of the negatives I just mentioned, Then credit can make you money. I would not however, just hand out free credit to unverified candidates just for the sake of selling more jobs.

Here's a nice little scenario: You do work for some one on credit. After the job is done, the customer calls you back with all kinds of unreasonable complaints and demands unrelated to the original agreement(Cuz we know that has NEVER happened to any of us:yes. Now you have to choose between doing as kinds of work for free or not getting paid for the original job.

Take a lesson from the banks recieving bailout money from the government right now. Don't hand out credit reclessly.

My .02



BatonRougePlumb said:


> How much business do you lost because you charge for diagnosing a problem and how much do you save from losing with your policies. Which one has the greater loss?
> 
> How much business do you lose from C. O. D. and how much more would you gain by giving credit. Which one has the greater loss?
> 
> ...


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Amen brother, preach it!!



ASUPERTECH said:


> [/color]
> 
> Do you think your tech that your sending out there after giving that price over the phone has a real chance in [email protected]#$ of getting any more out of that job than you quoted? If I was your tech., we would be having words if you clipped me off at the knees like that, or best case cenario it would end up being a unmotivating action that especially if continued to be practiced could effect my attitude. which would definetly effect *our* over all sales. @ that point I'm just a stupid day laborer feeling he's been patronized with hrs. of wasted time on schooling, product research and training, and motivational talks RE: add on sales, or upgrades. Yes your costomer may feel better having some sort of $, but now I would have to fight tooth and nail to bring that heater up to code or get them to upgrade to a 10 yr. :furious:
> Your guys need to feel both accountabilty and responsability for there actions during both good times and bad. I strongly encourage *you and others *who give priceing over the phone to really think about the full ramifications of your actions. There are ways around pricing over the phone.
> ...


----------



## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

ASUPERTECH said:


> [/color]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

Protech said:


> #
> 
> 
> > 1 In my experience, the only customers who want free estimates are the ones with no money, or just want free plumbing advice, Want to price shop every guy in town for the lowest bidder etc etc. I learned all these things the hard way with my first business.
> ...


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Heeeeeyy,


I posted in this thread, with "white" colored print. 

We'll will never know what I typed. :blink:


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

see quotes below



Plumbcrazy said:


> ASUPERTECH said:
> 
> 
> > [/color]
> ...


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Plumbcrazy said:


> The majority in our area DO NOT charge a trip fee. If the majority did, we would do the same.


Who cares what the competition does or doesn't do? I do business how I choose, not how my competition chooses. The average plumbing company in my area is retarded at service business. I could care less what their prices and policies are, as I have no desire to be like them.


----------



## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

Well, I can't vouch for your plumber’s experiences. As for me(some one who regularly puts on a uniform and deals with customers in there home) I have found that nearly all customers that have been given a ball park figure or price range only hear the lowest number they were told. A few can be reasoned with, but most will insist that they are not paying any more than what they were quoted over the phone. 

I am very clear and make sure they understand that my ballpark is a best guess. What I am trying to do is establish credibility if they are calling out of the YP, assuring them that we aren't going to hit them with a $1,000.00 estimate for something that would be $150.00. A lot of people have been burned by an upfront pricing company and they are 'testing' us. Most people just ask how we charge for our services. We are T & M with a one hour minimum with the exception of installs (WH, toilet, G. disp, faucet etc.). Some will ask if I know how long it will take, I will give them a best case, worst case scenario. Again, they are the exception. I want every potential customer that is willing to write us a check. If I feel there is a chance, I go for it! The cheapos, you kinda know after spending a lot of years dealing with customers. My gut is a better weeding tool than a trip fee.

I think you've missed the point. Trip fees could never sustain a company. They are used as a weeding device. I've noticed(at least in my area) that the companies that do free estimates on small jobs and quote over the phone have the oldest trucks, the lowest paid bottom of the barrel plumbers, and the most outdated equipment and techniques.

I got the point - a weeding device. In my experience, I do a fine job of weeding on the phone without missing out on a good sale because I am hung up on a hard & fast weeding rule.

Three of our trucks are less than two years old. The fourth is 6 years old or so, I think. It was our first truck (sentimental value); however, it looks brand new. No dents, rust etc. All trucks are washed on a regular basis, including the shiny black stuff you guys like on your tires. Our plumbers are paid $3 - $5. more per hour than other plumbers are paid and guaranteed hours. The PSI co. tell their guys to stay home and sleep in if there is not work - they don't get paid for this. We are not your run of the mill business. We do things very differently and it does pay off for us.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Hey if what you are doing is working for you, keep it up.

Let's play roles:

I'm the customer.

" Hi, I'm Tom Anyname. I live at 321 street name, city state zip. What would you guys charge me to come jet out my sewer pipes?"

And you say...........


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Protech said:


> Hey if what you are doing is working for you, keep it up.
> 
> Let's play roles:
> 
> ...


I don't think her company does much drain-cleaning, so a better example would be, "How much do you charge to replace a water heater?" I get that question pretty frequently myself.


----------



## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

Hello Mr. ??? Did someone refer you to our company? (I track all calls). I'm sorry sir, we don't do jetting. However, I can refer you to a reputable company that does. They treat their customers well and I think you will be pleased you called them. However, if for any reason you are not happy with them, please call and let me know as I wouldn't want to recommend them to another customer. Customer thanks me, I let him know it was a pleasure helping him and that if he needs general plumbing, we'd be glad to help him out.

Water heater scenario per Service Guy:

Me: Yes sir, I will be glad to help you. Do you have the Model & Serial Number for your current heater?

Him: What do you need that for?

Me: I will know the age of your heater, how many gallons, size etc.

Him: It's a 40 gallon.

Me: Is it a lowboy, short (reg), or tall?

Him: Uuummm, how can you tell? 

Me: Model & Serial # (1)

Me: Does it have an expansion tank?

Him: I don't know, I just want the price for a water heater.

Me: By code, it needs to have one. It's about the size of a basketball and usually is installed above the heater.

*This is where real customers & price shoppers are separated.*

Price shopper will resist giving you the Model & Serial number. 
Price shopper will not want to hear about code or the expansion tank.
Price shopper will say I got such & such price from Lowes, can you do it cheaper.

Me: Sir, I cannot give you a price if you don't do your part and provide me the information I need.

Me: Sir, if you are looking for the cheapest price, I fully understand. I don't want to waste your time or mine, we are not the cheapest and we are not the highest. 

Potential customer will earnestly ask questions about the expansion tank.
Potential customer will give you the Model & Serial Number.

Continuing on the phone with the potential customer:

Me: Your water heater is 11 years old, so unfortunately it is out of warranty. According to the Model, it appears to be a 40 gallon regular. Where is your water heater located?

Him: Laundry room.

Me: Will we have to move a washer, dryer, shelving etc to remove the water heater?

Him: No. Easy access.

Me: Any steps or special conditions?

Him: No, all tile. Your plumber could roll it right out through the garage.

Me: To F/I a new WH, expansion tank, and drain pan should be $675.00. It could be more if pipes need to be moved, your shut off valve needs to be replaced etc. When our plumber arrives, he will take a good look and confirm this. Unless something is unusual, the final price should be very close to the price I just gave you.

Him: Fair enough, when can you do it?

Me: We were scheduled to work in a vacant condo this afternoon; however, since your water heater is leaking, I can push that into tomorrow and get you scheduled this afternoon.

Him: Wow! Thanks.

Me: Thank you Mr. ?, we look forward to meeting you at 1:00 p.m.


----------



## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

Plumbcrazy said:


> Well, I can't vouch for your plumber’s experiences. As for me(some one who regularly puts on a uniform and deals with customers in there home) I have found that nearly all customers that have been given a ball park figure or price range only hear the lowest number they were told. A few can be reasoned with, but most will insist that they are not paying any more than what they were quoted over the phone.
> 
> I am very clear and make sure they understand that my ballpark is a best guess. What I am trying to do is establish credibility if they are calling out of the YP, assuring them that we aren't going to hit them with a $1,000.00 estimate for something that would be $150.00. A lot of people have been burned by an upfront pricing company and they are 'testing' us. Most people just ask how we charge for our services. We are T & M with a one hour minimum with the exception of installs (WH, toilet, G. disp, faucet etc.). Some will ask if I know how long it will take, I will give them a best case, worst case scenario. Again, they are the exception. I want every potential customer that is willing to write us a check. If I feel there is a chance, I go for it! The cheapos, you kinda know after spending a lot of years dealing with customers. My gut is a better weeding tool than a trip fee.
> 
> ...


 Plumbcrazy:
How you handle your buissness is of course and respectfully up to you. By no meens was I telling you that you were wrong. I do wonder though if you reallize how much respect that many on this forum have for you. If I had to bet due to your many words of wisdom, I'd say that there are probably buissness owners in your area who also share with us a great deal of respect for you and your crew. This is why I came across so strongly earlier. YOU ARE AN EXAMPLE LIKE IT OR NOT!! 
This is one more reason why you should be one of, if not the premier plumber in your area. Most people in general, believe better should cost more. I believe that every step I take to distance myself from the butt crack showing, no shirt wearing, illiterate, pipe slinger the better. And that each day (we) should be moving our trade towards one who deserves both the respect and compensation of one who has saved more lives and provided more comfort to more people than any other trade ever (except maybe that of motherhood- if you would call that a trade)) Many in our profession believe that some of the fundimental steps in the evolution of the service plumber are trip charges and flat rates. 
As far as the refering to "playing dumb" I assummed that you did answer the phones at your shop. If you were employing a dispatcher or receptionist to answer the phone they would not have your years of experience to guide them technically or from the gut. Therefor for you to answer the phones as if you were just an employee you would have to play dumb. 
If all plumbers were to stop cutting the legs out from under one another over the phone I believe our trade as a whole would benefit.
Sorry I got a little preachy there. Please except my personal apology if I offended, it was definetly not my intent.


----------



## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

ASUPERTECH said:


> > Plumbcrazy:
> > How you handle your buissness is of course and respectfully up to you. By no meens was I telling you that you were wrong. I do wonder though if you reallize how much respect that many on this forum have for you. If I had to bet due to your many words of wisdom, I'd say that there are probably buissness owners in your area who also share with us a great deal of respect for you and your crew. This is why I came across so strongly earlier. YOU ARE AN EXAMPLE LIKE IT OR NOT!!
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## duckky (Feb 13, 2009)

u better keep it anonymous, u could get sued for publically tarnishing their name


----------



## duckky (Feb 13, 2009)

Plumber said:


> Every company I've ever worked for follows those rules. Those are the essence of service work.
> 
> I had one lady who wanted a discount because _my_ business was slow. I told her that because my business was slow, I can't afford to give a discount!
> 
> ...


discounts are best left to walmart i think.. solid work of any kind deserves solid rates, no games.


----------



## duckky (Feb 13, 2009)

BatonRougePlumb said:


> Please tell me you made a mistake and posted the wrong link. This is the lamest post I've seen by awanna be expert. I heard of this dude's sale training before and this is the first of his stuff I've seen. Real Scary!
> 
> This advice is another sad attempt to judge the customer over the phone. When you have a customer on the phone you have to tell them what they want to hear. People don't give a poop about what your service charge, trip charge, or any other charge is. They only want to know how much they are going to have to pay to solve their problem. So this dude is telling you to baffle your customers and scare the crap out of them by telling them they will have to pay a trip charge, or whatever.
> 
> ...


taking out the trip charge would be a good way to be a cheap way to make you look better than other plumbers in the customers eyes, could be the diff between getting the job and not

everyone wanna save pennies, even if their just pennies, expecialy when the potential job is a big one, hate to loose a 5000$ job just cuz you demanded a 20$ travel charge when the next company didnt and also gave free estimates.. easy way to get your foot in the door, do some work, look good, spread your name thru word or mouth, etc..


----------



## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

duckky said:


> taking out the trip charge would be a good way to be a cheap way to make you look better than other plumbers in the customers eyes, could be the diff between getting the job and not
> 
> everyone wanna save pennies, even if their just pennies, expecialy when the potential job is a big one, hate to loose a 5000$ job just cuz you demanded a 20$ travel charge when the next company didnt and also gave free estimates.. easy way to get your foot in the door, do some work, look good, spread your name thru word or mouth, etc..


Where did you learn to write? No capitals, no periods, misspelled words, made-up words....that's 3rd grade writing level.

Are you ESL?


----------



## WestCoastPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I used to give discounts, I don't anymore. I give the older long time customers a senior discount, this is because when I started my company, I did this.

I don't do any discounts, I read in a book once that a discounts tells the customer you are expensive, someone pays for that discount.

So, no more discounts or coupons. No need.


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Plumber said:


> Where did you learn to write? No capitals, no periods, misspelled words, made-up words....that's 3rd grade writing level.
> 
> Are you ESL?


Plumber I would have sent you a PM but you have that all blocked, please edit your post, there has been enough of this talk already, want to talk about it have PM set to on.

Thanks Ron


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Company image is everything, from clean, neat and well groomed employees to clean vans and a clean office and reception area. If you are a one man show the basics still apply. You have really two choices. You can be the cheapest guy in town and get all the deadbeats and crap work that no one else wants, or you can be the most expensive shop in town. If you're going to be the most expensive than you have got to offer something that the el cheap guy does not. Usually tnat boils down to image, top notch service and uncompromising attention to detail. We treat every single potential customer the same way. Often customers that give you a bad first impression turn out to be the best ones. You can not make snap judgments. We rarely haggle over price We are not running a tag sale here. If we don't make the expected profit margin it has to come out of something. ( My boat :laughing: ) We do offer senior citizen discounts though. If you are big enough, a professional salesman can be a very good addition to your company. Just remember that your company will grow if you offer the very best.


----------



## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

service guy said:


> Who cares what the competition does or doesn't do? I do business how I choose, not how my competition chooses. The average plumbing company in my area is retarded at service business. I could care less what their prices and policies are, as I have no desire to be like them.


 I agree with you to an extent, In regards to a trip charge though and this question is for every body: 

1. Do any of you stop what your doing and run when you here an add on the radio for your local automotive repair shop offering "free" diagnostic check ups?

2. If you did stop in to get that "free check up", isn't there something going in the back of your head while the guy is telling you what they found going?

3. Why would you think your any different to the costomer? :no:


----------



## albert999 (Sep 6, 2013)

*Bad costumer*

Now this is a bad plumbing experience, happened last night, got a call late in the night, bathroom flooding, some crappy area, put my keys and phone on counter to crawl under the house, he lied and said the shut of valve was under the house, when I came out, I said "my phone?" He said "I don't have your phone", there were three other homosexual guys there
And I said " i'm not leaving this fuawlking house until I get my phone", finally the manager called our phone number, and it was in the guys pocket, a fight ensued, called them a bunch of "*******", and the girl butch with the shaved head, ugly beast, said " Oh no you didn't say that?", and I said "yes I did, you heard me" took my phone and left.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

albert999 said:


> Now this is a bad plumbing experience, happened last night, got a call late in the night, bathroom flooding, some crappy area, put my keys and phone on counter to crawl under the house, he lied and said the shut of valve was under the house, when I came out, I said "my phone?" He said "I don't have your phone", there were three other homosexual guys there
> And I said " i'm not leaving this fuawlking house until I get my phone", finally the manager called our phone number, and it was in the guys pocket, a fight ensued, called them a bunch of "*******", and the girl butch with the shaved head, ugly beast, said " Oh no you didn't say that?", and I said "yes I did, you heard me" took my phone and left.


We are going to beat you up and call you names if you don't post the proper intro here..


----------



## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

Are you sure this wasn't a twisted fantasy type dream? 

When you responded to her was it with the three snap z formation with a head bob?


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

HSI said:


> Are you sure this wasn't a twisted fantasy type dream?
> 
> *When you responded to her was it with the three snap z* *formation with a head bob? *


 








.....:laughing:....LOL


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

*Kudos for digging up a 4 year old thread*

To post that gem of an experience. 

Dem foans, they loved by all. :blink:


----------



## albert999 (Sep 6, 2013)

*Whatever*



HSI said:


> Are you sure this wasn't a twisted fantasy type dream?
> 
> When you responded to her was it with the three snap z formation with a head bob?


Well I guess that would be funny if I knew a damn thing about plumbing, but seeing I'm the wife posting , I don't, so your witty sense of humor is lost on me.
But judging by your posts I can see you are gay friendly and I certainly don't want you anywhere near my husband, he is a very good looking guy. I don't care for these sexual perverts making passes at my man, I can tell you that right now.


----------



## albert999 (Sep 6, 2013)

*wives*

We are the ones that have to suffer, listening to all your bad plumbing experiences, "did you have a nice day at work hon"? "oh nooooooo not another bad plumbing experience"? Teaches us ladies not to marry a plumber, that is for sure.


----------



## albert999 (Sep 6, 2013)

*plumbers wife*

And You don't want a wife like me answering the phones, because you will lose a lot of business, because when I hear any kosher names, I immediately say " we are booked up", and hang up the phone.


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

albert999 said:


> And You don't want a wife like me answering the phones, because you will lose a lot of business, because when I hear any kosher names, I immediately say " we are booked up", and hang up the phone.


 








You might not be quite the right fit for this place.....


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

albert999 said:


> Well I guess that would be funny if I knew a damn thing about plumbing, but seeing *I'm the wife posting* , I don't, so your witty sense of humor is lost on me.
> But judging by your posts I can see you are gay friendly and I certainly don't want you anywhere near my husband, he is a very good looking guy. I don't care for these sexual perverts making passes at my man, I can tell you that right now.


 






So you are 'the wife' huh? So why did your other post read as if you were the plumber out on the late night service call with the homos?......:whistling2:


----------



## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

albert999 said:


> And You don't want a wife like me answering the phones, because you will lose a lot of business, because when I hear any kosher names, I immediately say " we are booked up", and hang up the phone.


You hate black people too?


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Thread closed for now until the poser offers up an intro.


----------

