# DIY craziness found in renovation



## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Started a reno today and found this craziness. It appears the house had a fire and (I assume) the owner decided to replumb/renovate it himself (obviously with no permits?). The DWV is the craziest thing I've seen in a while. We laughed at it for a while before chopping it all out to start over. :laughing:

Upstairs there are two 3-piece baths. There was an existing 3" stack from ground floor. He put a 3x2" double-wye on the vertical and ran 1-1/2" branches to a lav in each bath. On top of that he put a 3" double-wye. One side branch picks up one toilet. The other picks up the other toilet and a bathtub with a bizarre bit of piping you'll see in the pics below. The top of the d-wye has a 3x1-1/2" tee that picks up the other bathtub and then does two 90's, butchers through a joist (with wrong-way slope) and another 90 and up through the roof (you'll see this in the pics). Wacky DIY strangeness! :laughing:










There are more wires behind the drywall elsewhere. What a firetrap!


















Look at this bizarre bit of piping. The tub drain/vent thing is so strange that I can't imagine what he was thinking when he did it. :laughing: Oh ya, that's a union trap concealed in a ceiling. 


















The abandoned 3/4" M copper is old hot water heating. They ripped out the boiler, abandoned the old heating and installed electric baseboards. I can't for the life of me imagine why.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*that is pretty bad*

 that is pretty bad, did you cut it all out??


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> that is pretty bad, did you cut it all out??


It's all in the dumpster now. :laughing: The bathrooms are being moved around some to accommodate fixture changes and a new walk-in closet in the middle of things, but it's going to be pretty simple to replumb properly.

There's more funny stuff coming when I take pics of the waterpipes and the water heater. I'll shoot those probably Tuesday.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*it worked great for years*



futz said:


> It's all in the dumpster now. :laughing: The bathrooms are being moved around some to accommodate fixture changes and a new walk-in closet in the middle of things, but it's going to be pretty simple to replumb properly.
> 
> There's more funny stuff coming when I take pics of the waterpipes and the water heater. I'll shoot those probably Tuesday.


 
the thing that really bothers me is it all probably worked great for years;;; :laughing::laughing:

ABS can take some punishment


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Its as if DIY don't understand that things can be cut out and redone. No need to continue and make a big sweeping turn. I think it feels good to tear out that kinda junk and rework.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Futz, looks like a nice job you got there. Go get 'em and make yourself a few dollars. I salivate when little re-models come my way like that. :thumbsup:


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## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

you explained it it made no sense, then I see it and it still makes no sense:laughing:


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

AKdaplumba said:


> you explained it it made no sense, then I see it and it still makes no sense:laughing:


That's understandable. It was a bit tough to figure out what was going on even when I was right there, looking at all different angles with a flashlight. The main problem is that no plumber would ever pipe it that way, so you have to devolve your thinking to the blurry level of your typical DIYer's thoughts. They just don't know any better. :laughing:


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## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

we want to see some after pics when your done!


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## WestCoastPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> the thing that really bothers me is it all probably worked great for years;;; :laughing::laughing:
> 
> ABS can take some punishment


 
Thats the problem, plumbing works wrong for so long


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

futz said:


> That's understandable. It was a bit tough to figure out what was going on even when I was right there, looking at all different angles with a flashlight. The main problem is that no plumber would ever pipe it that way, so you have to devolve your thinking to the blurry level of your typical DIYer's thoughts. They just don't know any better. :laughing:


I hate those jobs where you just have to cut everything out just so you can clear your thinking and figure out what you are going to do...:laughing:


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## VIPlumber (Mar 14, 2010)

*DIY job*

What an unholy mess!


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## 130 PLUMBER (Oct 22, 2009)

look like a hot mess there!!!!


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

AKdaplumba said:


> we want to see some after pics when your done!


You asked for it. It's not much to look at though. Just plain old plumbing. I'm not even going to post pics of the kitchen plumbing - it's just run-of-the-mill piping.


Here's the changes made to the old, and one view of the plumbing for the master ensuite.









Same thing from lower angle









Master ensuite. View from other side of wall









Plumbing for the moved main bath









Other end of that tub branch









And the venting in the attic from two different directions


















First time I've installed one of these - Delta R18442. Something a little different. It'll get a couple more support blocks before the wall gets closed.









Here's the existing plumbing on the water heater. Some "plumber" thought this was a good idea. :laughing: I've marked all or most pipes that will be redone with "TEMP" for the inspector. The two caps up top are for inspection pressure test. You can see one of the old lines for the tank marked "ABANDON", again for the inspector. The 3/4" "TEMP" lines are mine, just to give the customers water till I get all this repiped (they're living in the ground floor of this split level house).


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## Mark's plumbing (Aug 23, 2010)

Lol, This is why we pay for professionals. Its like selling your own house, You can do it yourself but its not in your best interest, Hire a real estate agent. LOL


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## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

thank-you! now it makes some sense


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

futz said:


> You asked for it. It's not much to look at though. Just plain old plumbing. I'm not even going to post pics of the kitchen plumbing - it's just run-of-the-mill piping.
> 
> 
> Here's the changes made to the old, and one view of the plumbing for the master ensuite.
> ...


How high are those body sprays going to be off the finished floor?

ADD> Is anyone living in the home right now? If they are and the new plumbing you have pictured is sharing a water heater with the rest of the house......you must install the cartridge in those delta faucets and turn it off unless they have integral stops that are turned off.


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## M5Plumb (Oct 2, 2008)

OOHhhhh, stay away from that quest unless you are gonna replace it.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> How high are those body sprays going to be off the finished floor?


53". Too high you think? The woman of the house is pretty short. I wasn't sure exactly how high to put them. I still have a chance to lower it if necessary - tub & shower install have been delayed a bit.



> Is anyone living in the home right now? If they are and the new plumbing you have pictured is sharing a water heater with the rest of the house......you must install the cartridge in those delta faucets and turn it off unless they have integral stops that are turned off.


One integral stop in each valve is turned off. That way they still get a good long test before drywall (on top of the half day or so 200 PSI for the inspector) and the customers still get real hot water instead of just warm. :laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

futz said:


> 53". Too high you think? The woman of the house is pretty short. I wasn't sure exactly how high to put them. I still have a chance to lower it if necessary - tub & shower install have been delayed a bit.
> 
> One integral stop in each valve is turned off. That way they still get a good long test before drywall (on top of the half day or so 200 PSI for the inspector) and the customers still get real hot water instead of just warm. :laughing:


You might should consult the "shorty" of the house AND the man of the house. I usually have the owner come in and stand on somthing that will be the same height of the finished floor of the shower and tell me where they want everything to be.

10-4 on integral stops:thumbsup:


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

M5Plumb said:


> OOHhhhh, stay away from that quest unless you are gonna replace it.


What is "quest"? Are you referring to poly-b? 

All the poly-b was ripped out or abandoned, except some in the crawl feeding a hose bibb. 

Anyway I have absolutely no problem with poly-b. To this day I still don't understand what all the fuss was about. It was always absolutely reliable. 

The only problems we ever had with it was the first year we used it when we were still using those crappy grey acetal plastic crimp fittings (also they briefly experimented with aluminum crimp rings - many failures on those too). Total junk. Switched to copper and brass fittings and all problems went away.

Lots of companies (us too back then) also used it for radiant heating. We didn't know any better. That was a massive mistake. With no oxygen barrier it rots out boilers and heating systems badly. But the pipe never fails - just fills up with oxidized boiler "dust".


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> You might should consult the "shorty" of the house AND the man of the house. I usually have the owner come in and stand on somthing that will be the same height of the finished floor of the shower and tell me where they want everything to be.


They had been worrying about it and we did exactly that. The sprays are level with her collarbone area or slightly below. We decided to leave it at that. Those sprays have some angle adjustment, don't they? Like 10 or 15 degrees?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

futz said:


> They had been worrying about it and we did exactly that. The sprays are level with her collarbone area or slightly below. We decided to leave it at that. Those sprays have some angle adjustment, don't they? Like 10 or 15 degrees?


Yes they have some adjustment......sounds like you have it covered.:thumbsup:


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## bartnc37 (Feb 24, 2009)

Even w/o the stops those deltas come with a plug for the hot port so the water doesn't circ if you don't have the trim yet. 
The piping looks good but I try to use bend supports for my pex 90 degree turns, just eliminates some joints in the wall/floor.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

bartnc37 said:


> Even w/o the stops those deltas come with a plug for the hot port so the water doesn't circ if you don't have the trim yet.


I've never seen one. No Delta RI I've ever installed has come with such a thing.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

I've had some valve bodies that came with the plugs and some without, I save them....just in case.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

ABS looks good futz. :thumbsup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

bartnc37 said:


> Even w/o the stops those deltas come with a plug for the hot port so the water doesn't circ if you don't have the trim yet.
> The piping looks good but I try to use bend supports for my pex 90 degree turns, just eliminates some joints in the wall/floor.


Delta rough valve comes with a plug installed instead of the cartridge now.....it does not have a plug in the hot side of the valve. They install plastic filter internally in the outlet of the valve....it is to be removed before the cartridge is installed........it doesn't plug anything off.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Delta rough valve comes with a plug installed instead of the cartridge now.....it does not have a plug in the hot side of the valve. They install plastic filter internally in the outlet of the valve....it is to be removed before the cartridge is installed........it doesn't plug anything off.


Yes. That has been my experience. Never seen any kind of plug to stop crossflow in an empty valve body. Maybe I'll see one someday, but not so far.


Shower sub-base and tub went in today. Pan liner and inspection tomorrow. I didn't take any pics.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Delta rough valve comes with a plug installed instead of the cartridge now.....it does not have a plug in the hot side of the valve. They install plastic filter internally in the outlet of the valve....it is to be removed before the cartridge is installed........it doesn't plug anything off.


TM, here is what I'm talking about. It's a plug. Yeah I know...crappy cell phone pics.

Here it is installed...........










And here it is laying on my gun cleaning mat............


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> TM, here is what I'm talking about. It's a plug. Yeah I know...crappy cell phone pics.
> 
> Here it is installed...........
> 
> ...


Never seen one of those......when did they start that? How does that make a seal to the plug that plugs off the whole valve?


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Never seen one of those...I have a question. What seals the top? I see the o-rings at the bottom but the hard plastic plug with the oring on it...how does that make a seal to the top of that white "plug"?


It's solid at the base at the o-rings and the grey plastic cap keeps it from blowing out. Not sure, been seeing them for several years.

Maybe, just maybe we're on the cutting edge of Delta technology....................


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> TM, here is what I'm talking about. It's a plug. Yeah I know...crappy cell phone pics.
> 
> Here it is installed...........


Now I'm really sure. I've never seen one of those before. They look like a great thing to have around for renovations. 

On the other hand, I pretty much always buy WS, so shutting off one integral works just as well...


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

futz said:


> Now I'm really sure. I've never seen one of those before. They look like a great thing to have around for renovations.
> 
> On the other hand, I pretty much always buy WS, so shutting off one integral works just as well...


Yeah, I agree, for only $10 bucks more, why not buy WS? However, I have some of these little buggers just in case.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> It's solid at the base at the o-rings and the grey plastic cap keeps it from blowing out. Not sure, been seeing them for several years.
> 
> Maybe, just maybe we're on the cutting edge of Delta technology....................


Nice idea. My valves do not have them.......as you see here.
Notice the date at the bottom right hand corner. They must be adding perks in as time goes on.....several years ago??? I dunno. I will be finding out. Any way here are the pics I just took......
































Here is the black plastic strainer i was speaking of.....


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Nice idea. My valves do not have them.......as you see here.
> Notice the date at the bottom right hand corner. They must be adding perks in as time goes on.....several years ago??? I dunno. I will be finding out. Any way here are the pics I just took......
> 
> Here is the black plastic strainer i was speaking of.....


Well, those filters don't stop the flow. They're there for flushing. All the valves I've ever bought always had those.

Kinda weird, like I said, some come with them and some don't.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Your valve is different than mine....look at the internal drillings.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

BTW, I am very surprised that you did not catch the fact that the valve I pictured is not even a Delta.............:whistling2:


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Jinx, you owe me a Coke.................


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> BTW, I am very surprised that you did not catch the fact that the valve I pictured is not even a Delta.............:whistling2:


What is it then? It sure looks like this old style delta that used the blue bottom shorter cartridge.....OLD:whistling2:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I bet they are shipping those plugs with valves that come with the trim... like at Home depot and Lowes. My supply house sells the valves seperate than the trim.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I bet they are shipping those plugs with valves that come with the trim... like at Home depot and Lowes. My supply house sells the valves seperate than the trim.


Nope, just bought the rough-in valve and it came with the plug.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> What is it then? It sure looks like this old style delta that used the blue bottom shorter cartridge.....OLD:whistling2:


It does take the blue cartridge and it's a Peerless.............


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

The part that choctaw posted...the white plug is an RP46079 reuseable test plug.........it also says its sold as a replacement part only. Atleast thats what the paperwork I have from Delta says at the time it was printed.

Here it is for sale...http://www.affordablefaucets.com/delta-rp46079-part-p-11899.html

I am not saying that they dont ship some valves with the plug. Delta makes thousands of parts and are constantly trying things out on a limted basis and only in certain markets.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> It does take the blue cartridge and it's a Peerless.............


Masco made it...its rebranded delta.

Just a tid bit. The integral stops on a delta shower valve.......brasscraft fixture stop valve stems will fit as a replacement.....jsut saw you a screwdriver slot on the end of it.......if its roughed in shallow...saw the stem off before you cut the slot. brasscraft is owned by masco that makes Delta.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Now what type of pex and fittings are those ??? Dabbling with the idea of pex and like the way your's have copper fittings . 

Good work !


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Cal said:


> Now what type of pex and fittings are those ??? Dabbling with the idea of pex and like the way your's have copper fittings.


I don't pay much attention to pex brands. I buy whatever my supplier is selling at the moment. That stuff is Canpex Ultra, made by Vanguard. I've used other brands. 

The fittings are not copper (except the stubouts). They are brass and I suppose they come from Vanguard as well (not sure).


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