# Any pity out there for a dumb plumber?



## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

My new shop does residential as well as commercial, but I've been doing exclusively commercial for the last ten years.

I got sent on a call about a kitchen faucet leaking water from the body and was told to use the flat rate book. I rolled up expecting to find a broken or rotted faucet that needed replacement, but found a new faucet and the pull out spray-wand had become detached from the hose.

The hose was still lodged in the body of the faucet and the threads on the wand seemed in perfectly good condition, so I immediately fished out the hose and reconnected it. 

Tested good...all I could figure was one of the kids must have been playing with the wand and unthreaded it.

Anyway...I wrote out a ticket for our one hour minimum charge and the Patel on hand said it was too much. He called his daughter (turns out she was the HO and was at work)

I explained to her the faucet was fixed and I didn't think she'd have any need for a new one, but she told me her father had no money and could she write us a check when she got home. I realized immediately I was on treacherous ground, but told her sure...if that's what is necessary.

While I finished writing out the ticket I got a call from the shop that the woman had called complaining I was over charging her and in the process I learned I was under-charging her. Our first hour is supposed to be $183.00, but I was charging her $125.00.

Long story shorter...I was informed that I should never fix _anything_ without first quoting it and getting a signature. 

The Patel got the call for free. 

Including drive time this call took 1 hour.


Comments are welcome :whistling2:


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

Welcome to the wonderful world of residential plumbing.:laughing:
Ive been in it since 1989 and have done lots of "free" work over the years.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Lesson learned, sounds like someone should have instructed you a little better on their pricing structure and about always getting the ticket signed before you start repairs.


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

It sucks but you have to quote a pricE first. now u also have to look into the future to lets say you are gonna change out a toilet. You qoute toilet and say doesn't include flange repair if flange is Broke or stop doesn't turn off there s gonna be an additional charge


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

The next lesson is every deal you give someone will bite you in the [email protected]@.


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Thats why I stay away from residential. Hate it.


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

My boss would call that, another bite of the sh** sandwich.


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

I used to get the same thing. Man calls and said his cut off valve needs replacing because it will not cut off, I drive 45 minutes and turn the valve 1/4 turn and presto! the water is off. Idiot had a 1" gate valve and turned it all but the last quarter turn, got pissed and figured he should not have to pay. Been to houses where toilet is clogged, HO says they plunge and plunge and plunge. I get my plunger and with 1 or 2 pumps out it goes! That really piss them off, cant figure out how I done it and they could not. So once again they feel as though the bill is too high.

Thas why I dont bother with them


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

Seem like I get the most biotching from the simple fixes. 
Flappers, toilet augers , etc:


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## Boundry (Jul 14, 2012)

I feel ya man, I've had the same experiences over the years.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

johnlewismcleod said:


> My new shop does residential as well as commercial, but I've been doing exclusively commercial for the last ten years.
> 
> I got sent on a call about a kitchen faucet leaking water from the body and was told to use the flat rate book. I rolled up expecting to find a broken or rotted faucet that needed replacement, but found a new faucet and the pull out spray-wand had become detached from the hose.
> 
> ...


 Here is my take on the situation.
#1- If your 1st hr is minimum of $183.00, (which is pretty steep IMO) why didn't your co inform the customer of this in advance? I'm sure most 1st time customers may be shocked.

#2- Now if you look at the faucet, & give them a quote, you also gotta explain, that is just what you can see, without testing it. Think about it............ If you quote them $183.00, then they say go ahead, what happens if you put that head back on, and there is a leak in the hose, or the fitting is somehow messed up? Is this Patel gonna pay you more now, to go chase around town for the part, or put in a new faucet?:no:

Give yourself a break. The $125.00 was reasonable for what you did. I place all this blame on the shop, for not informing the customer of minimum charge.:yes: If the shop would have done that, I don't think you would not even had to deal with this cheap a$$.


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## antiCon (Jun 15, 2012)

had a lady call us up and i get there for a kitchen sink stoppage 45 min. drive from the shop... sink was full of water quoted $189 to snake it.. pulled the trap ... water still in sink ... figured OK plugged in the disposal .. nope.. reached in the water and pulled the stopper from the disposal and all the water drained  told her i felt sorry and just charged her a $79 dollar service charge instead... she paid, but 1/2 hr. on the way back to shop area i got a call from my office.. she was pissed.. and gave us a bad review over it... all i could think is i should have charged her the whole $189 :/also i get a lot of crazy for this too "WHAT!! 145 for A FReAKin FLAPPER... THATS a 5 DOLLAR PART!!!"


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

No big deal. It is a learning situation. You learned. Sometimes the plumber is in a lose lose situation especially when you must fix it to diagnose the big picture. For me and my guys this is a service or trip charge situation. It may not be your shop policy though. I would definitely discuss it at the next shop meeting and have set policy for simple repairs such as that. I consider this job as a loss leader. The inspection would give you a different way to attack a lost leader item.

If you have a service agreement the loss leader repair is a good way to sell the agreement. 

I tend to agree with giving a price prior to repairing .Re-set button on the disposal. There is a reason why it jammed. If it is a ½ hp it is due to rusting price unjamming the disposal, new disposal and an upgrade disposal preferably ¾ stainless steel non rusting disposal.

I would not worry about it.


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## Doubletap (May 5, 2010)

In my experience there is 100 good customers for every one bad. When a customer calls form a long way away I make it clear that there will be a trip charge even if the work is simple. So far I have never gotten a work order signed in advance. I do go over the price verbally and try to prep them for the bad things that can happen. The people who have had problems with my service have said "he showed up on time, he did good work, but his price was a little high" 
And you know what, sometimes my price was a little high.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Expenses are incurred to get to the location. There is no way around that. 

I agree with DoubleTap, it's the small percentage that cause the most trouble. 

If you get more than your fair share of the 1-5% bad apples, best to find out what you are doing to attract them to your business. It may be as simple as removing 'best pricing,' 'fair,' 'honest & trustworthy,' '100% satisfaction guaranteed' etc. from your marketing pieces.

Best pricing will be interpreted as 'cheapest.'

Fair will be interpreted as in favor of the customer.

Honest & trustworthy will be interpreted as pushover.

100% satisfaction guaranteed says you are very concerned about reputation and more likely to give in to keep that 100%.

Long time ago, someone on PZ said raise your prices and a lot of your headaches will go away. I wish I could remember who it was to give proper credit. They were absolutely right!


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

I've been at my best when I've approached every call with the attitude of providing the type of service I would want to receive. When I knock on he door, I've decided to have as much fun as ?i can whole taking care of my customer.

I would want to know what my responsibility is for calling someone to my home. I would want to know what the amount will be, before approving work. 

Paperwork is a pain but it can keep both parties from getting involved in something they may regret.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Patels often require special handling...

Never fix anything without the signature agreeing to the price, even then be ready for additional haggling. Yes the phone call to the office was part of the haggling and your office personel need to back you better when dealing with Patels.

Never cut your prices for a Patel the haggling will continue until the check is in hand and considerable time will be wasted so you must factor in the haggling time into the bill. A 150% markup is usually about right to cover this even on a simple job. Flat Raters you need to use those creative add ons to accomplish this...:laughing:

The 2 person approach is a very typical "MO" and the person away from the job site will have the money. Offer to leave and return when the money person can be there. Chances are Gramps will suddenly have a little bit of money on hand or the money person will be there in as little as 5 minutes.

Never let them see you fix anything as part of your troubleshooting and testing. Always undo it afterwards and add in a little something such as in this case take the rubber gasket out of the hose and and perhaps hide it under the sink. This way their problem still exists when going for the signature to approve the work and they aren't likely to use your troubleshooting knowledge to successfully repair the problem on their own.

Like I said Patels are special and require special treatment, the haggling and conniving behavior the have is part of their culture from the old country and until they leave the behavior behind and assimilate into our culture it is unfortunate but they will find it actually costs them more money. They'll just have to get over it!


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

Patel?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*it is a wonderful life*



AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Welcome to the wonderful world of residential plumbing.:laughing:
> Ive been in it since 1989 and have done lots of "free" work over the years.


 
it is a wonderful life doing service work , 
try to get used to it again...

dont feel too bad about it... I got a bounced check
in my truck right now for $950 for a water heater...

called them a few times and they wont return my call so 
I have been playing the "catch the money at the bank on Friday game' ... 


Today is the 10th and most folks have their money direct deposited into their account 
at midnight on the 9th.. So I will be standing at their bank at 9 this morning 
hopinig to be the first sap in line holding his hand out...


if this dont work its small claims court...

It dont happen very often to me but when it does, 
I just deal with it... sometimes I wish I had a check swiper
like they have at the grocery stores tha timmediately takes the money 
out of their accounts.....


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I would file a police report on that bad check as well. Bouncing a check is a criminal offense. Happened to me once,I reported it to the police and a soon add they contacted the customer I magically had a certified check to cover the amount of the check plus the bounded check fee.

I've learned after a certain amount of courtesy calls, usually one or two or when you feel like they are ducking you, it's time to get the lawyer involved to file a lien or in the case of a bad check the cops.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> I would file a police report <snip>
> 
> *BUT it was a terrific time for advertising. Granted it took 1 hour and the service man got paid 1 hour. Nothing was done that required plumbing **so-to-speak, but per the "OP" I would assume Flat/Rate was in effect. **Now even though it was a P***l suppose that the one hour was written up as non-productive. The serviceman had said "really what I did was nothing there will be no/charge but don't forget to call us back when you have a real problem" Even a P***l would tell a few people about it. In advertising cost, what is a call like this worth 1 hour pay for a man and some truck costs -- don't figure O/H on this -- it was no-pro????*
> 
> *I know I'm going to get blasted on this post but I would rather have some customer saying good things to 10 people rather than bath mouthing me for a rip-off to 100!*


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I am with Bill on this and would take it a step farther. Automatically the subject is being described as a bad customer. What is a bad customer? This needs to be defined before we can start to label.

I’ve already stated that this was a learning experience for the plumber. No big deal. A certain percentage of calls like this and warranties should be figured in as over head costs.

I do not care that the customer’s name is Patel I have had Joe Smith play this game and it has nothing to do with the service call.

When you are a flat rate company or any way you want to call it, you give a price before you do the work. The customer has the chance to approve the price before you do it. Your advertising and CSR commits to these as items you do with each and every customer.

It is your duty and responsibility to follow YOUR policies. Don’t give a price before and the customer DOES not owe you they did not approve the job. This is YOUR policy.

Discovering who the decision maker is is also YOUR duty and responsibility. The office and the plumber screwed the pooch here by not discovering if the decision maker was at home or going to be home. No one discovered how payment was to be received.

In this case the customer is not the bad customer. They did not get what was promised. We also do not know how the office handled the service call if it was their decision to cancel the total bill or if they had an opportunity to collect at least a service fee.


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## AbsoluteDP (Jul 25, 2012)

Doubletap said:


> In my experience there is 100 good customers for every one bad...


 I just checked my books for last two years: 
2010 – 0.23% of the gross;
2011 – 0.37% :no:
2012 till now – 0.17%;
And we don’t do anything special: minimum charge policy explained before a plumber moves his butt, bigger job requires 30% deposit.
It is not so bad here. We lose more on credit card transactions.


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## piper1 (Dec 16, 2011)

Master Mark said:


> it is a wonderful life doing service work ,
> try to get used to it again...
> 
> dont feel too bad about it... I got a bounced check
> ...


 one thing i do for bouced checks, is leave the message that i will be redepositing you a check again today if i don't hear from you, i assume its good now.. they almost always call right away. they incure bank charges evertime it bounces. adds up quick. i save calling for a police report after the 3rd or 4 call. in fl. it falls under stealing. it also give you a paper trail.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Richard Hilliard said:


> I am with Bill on this and would take it a step farther. Automatically the subject is being described as a bad customer. What is a bad customer? This needs to be defined before we can start to label.
> 
> I’ve already stated that this was a learning experience for the plumber. No big deal. A certain percentage of calls like this and warranties should be figured in as over head costs.
> 
> ...


Agreed.

I've been in commercial service for so many years where the extent of my responsibility is to show up and get the job done right, as efficiently as possible, and with a friendly and professional demeanor.

The money/collection part of the job has not been my concern for over ten years and I need to start thinking and approaching the residential jobs differently.

It's a bit of a challenge because my new shop does both commercial _and_ residential so some jobs are flat rate (residential), while most of what I do remains bid or time and material (commercial).


I know it sounds racist or bigoted (whichever is the appropriate term in this situation) to point out that the customer was a Patel...but I've done many jobs for Patel's over the years on the commercial side of things and in all honesty and candor each and every time they tried to game the system (almost is if they were all related :laughing.

It's hard for me to imagine how anyone can think $125 for fixing a kitchen faucet is too high. It was easy for me (and would have been for most of us here), but I promise you the Patels would have _never_ been able to fix that faucet :no:


Still...live and learn and always put the best foot forward is good advice and I thank you for the reminder. I'll discuss it with the owner and see if he will give me a bit more leeway to react on site better to job circumstances. 

It's tough to cultivate customers when you're being fed over the phone what to say and charge while on the job and in the presence of the customers.


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

*Deal*



DesertOkie said:


> The next lesson is every deal you give someone will bite you in the [email protected]@.


Ya know doubt. It is not that I am not a solid tradesman but I swear when ever I am usually doing a job for friend/family the job ends up going south or something, but to an everyday customer I execute perfectly. :thumbsup:


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Rarely that happens because we will walk before we do the work. When it does happen, it's a big deal and with my temperament, it usually get bigger.

I had a boss back in the day. Really. I did.


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## piper1 (Dec 16, 2011)

this is the toughtest part of service


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## patrick88 (Oct 14, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Patels often require special handling...
> 
> Never fix anything without the signature agreeing to the price, even then be ready for additional haggling. Yes the phone call to the office was part of the haggling and your office personel need to back you better when dealing with Patels.
> 
> ...


RedWood is 100% correct. You really need to follow what he said. I learned my lesson. Got played by these people.  
If i listened to RedWood I would have been better off watching tv. 
I learned to never do more than look and only touch as little as needed. The Patels keep cash stashed all over the place. The old man had a stack to hand you. I wont be shocked if you get sent back to fix what ever they do to the faucet. I had a disposer that was jammed at a Patel. I looked at him and said yup its jammed it's 1/2 hp should get a better 3/4 hp. Sold. Did like RedWood. Gave higher price let them haggle. I got lax after getting handed a bunch of work. They will go for better up sells. You must play there games. Always up sell to make sure there is no reason for a call back.

Good luck. Again thank you RedWood


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## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

johnlewismcleod said:


> but I promise you the Patels would have _never_ been able to fix that faucet :no:


Introduce them to duct tape, nuff said


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## PrecisePlumbing (Jan 31, 2011)

Ill be adopting the redwood technique on my next patel just for experimentation sake :thumbsup: haven't had much luck with them as repeat customers yet so nothing to lose


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I would agree that we do understand and know how to deal with different cultures. I cannot imagine having to barter a chicken for medical help. However I would never suggest to deliberately sabotaging any item to make it leak more or continue to leak worse if you do not get the job.

The very first place to start will be to know how to diagnose without making the repair. Pull out spray pull the head out turn the faucet on and see where it leaks. To verify there are no other leaks allow the spray head to sit inside the sink while checking inside the cabinet. Hold the spray head to fill the sink and dump the bowls to check the drain. Smoking mirrors and tricks are unacceptable. This is an honest way to diagnose and then to give a price for the repair.


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## koehler (Aug 8, 2012)

PrecisePlumbing said:


> Ill be adopting the redwood technique on my next patel just for experimentation sake :thumbsup: haven't had much luck with them as repeat customers yet so nothing to lose


Patels ?


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

koehler said:


> Patels ?


If you haven't had to deal with them, be thankful. Just remember the word and when you see it on a quote form, remember to be careful...very careful.

If your natural tendency, like mine, is to be proactive and try to do everything you can to help a customer, they'll eat you up.

That's not to deny that the mistake was mine in this instance...It's just my opinion that most American's aren't out to take advantage of the generosity and goodwill of others. 

Experience has taught me that Patels are.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

koehler said:


> Patels ?


People from the Indian continent.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

koehler said:


> Patels ?


 Introduction ?


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

JK949 said:


> People from the Indian continent.


Actually a particular caste/clan from that continent.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

johnlewismcleod said:


> If you haven't had to deal with them, be thankful. Just remember the word and when you see it on a quote form, remember to be careful...very careful.
> 
> If your natural tendency, like mine, is to be proactive and try to do everything you can to help a customer, they'll eat you up.
> 
> ...


Be careful with those thoughts, you may find they do more harm than good. Instead, consider that most people are decent , but may be incompatible to do business with you.

Figure any work you do in a house before getting a signature for approval will be free. How much free work are you willing to do? Never show up or walk away with resentment or anger. People can sense that and it will hurt you in the 
wallet.

I did meet an Indian A/C contractor. He only did commercial because he got worn down trying to make residential clients happy.:laughing:


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Well said, JK949...thanks


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## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

Doubletap said:


> In my experience there is 100 good customers for every one bad. When a customer calls form a long way away I make it clear that there will be a trip charge even if the work is simple. So far I have never gotten a work order signed in advance. I do go over the price verbally and try to prep them for the bad things that can happen. The people who have had problems with my service have said "he showed up on time, he did good work, but his price was a little high"
> And you know what, sometimes my price was a little high.


 I agree ,back when I drove from Pinson To Hoover ,an extra 25 buck trip charge,(hidden in the ticket) Our area is so spread out for population ,we can run up alot of miles in a day esp going back and forth across town as we used to call it.-------------


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## Dan (Nov 29, 2011)

We finally got a Patel to quit calling us for her service work. She always tried to get a deal before we even went out there because of "all the business we do with you." We're talking two - 3 water heater change outs a year - jumping through hoops to get their stuff warrantied and waiting for her payment. She forgot to make a payment for 4 months, finally called it in to get settled up and then needed us at one of her rentals the next day. It felt good to tell her we were (honestly) far too busy but could get there in a week or two. If she still owed us money we would have went but since she settled up before her "emergency" it felt good to tell her thanks but no. As I write this I know you will blast me for waiting 4 months for payment. It wasn't large enough to lose sleep over or deal with the language barrier un-necessarily.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

All you had to do was call her and ask her when she would be home...

Once she asked why

Say because i am sending some one over to pick up payment


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