# Question about p-traps...



## Chalk Box (Sep 5, 2011)

Let me just throw this out there... I am being told that I can run a p-trap 7' on a 2" pipe. Which is completely legal per 2006 ipc. My concern is my boss told me that its legal to double 45 down and then continue straight to the vertical stack to "line vent" without a vent prior to the 45's. Isn't this losing the trap weir?? how can this be legal?


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Would not be vented properly...you are right


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## southfl plumber (Sep 4, 2011)

Its alright as long if the vent is higher than the fixture not fixture above vent. Just remember air raises up thru the vent not down the air would be trapped by the water.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

southfl plumber said:


> Its alright as long if the vent is higher than the fixture not fixture above vent. Just remember air raises up thru the vent not down the air would be trapped by the water.



:no:


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

southfl plumber said:


> Its alright as long if the vent is higher than the fixture not fixture above vent. Just remember air raises up thru the vent not down the air would be trapped by the water.


Sorry but that's wrong air moves down the vent to prevent a vacuum in the line and keep from loosing your trap seal ... So he can't 45 down before Stack or the trap weir will be above the vent opening and it won't vent properly


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## ianclapham (Jan 10, 2011)




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## ranman (Jan 24, 2010)

it depends on what is being trapped? combination drain and vent is his thought??

ask him? good communication is key


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

ranman said:


> it depends on what is being trapped? combination drain and vent is his thought??
> 
> ask him? good communication is key


I don't think you can 45 down on combination vent like that. The arm is over sized on a combination vent system to allow you to have a longer arm and and to keep your trap weir under the vent opening witch will allow it to vent. At least that's how I was taught.....


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## Chalk Box (Sep 5, 2011)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I don't think you can 45 down on combination vent like that. The arm is over sized on a combination vent system to allow you to have a longer arm and and to keep your trap weir under the vent opening witch will allow it to vent. At least that's how I was taught.....


That's exactly the way I've been taught. And this p-trap is for a floor drain so no, no the vent inlet will not be above the flood level. Just had me curious and I thought I'd poll some guys I could count on :yes::laughing:

Thanks for all of your help!


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Did you figure out how to do it?? Why did he say to 45 down ? To avoid from digging more ??


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Nope. Can't "double 45 down" and then run to the vent. You can't break that horizontal plane in the pics posted above. 

Tell the boss that the boys on Plumbing Zone said to do so would violate the plumbing code...


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## southfl plumber (Sep 4, 2011)

Hey tx plumber for your info what if you have a slug water going thru the double 45's what happens? The air is pushed in front and on back side it's creating a vaccum that will pull the water out of the trap. So that's why you don't put the fixture above a vent. To do what his boss says is against code.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

The hight of the fixture it self is always above the vent ... The trap weir is always above the bottom of the vent opening but under the top of the vent opening,,,, that allows for air to move freely in the arm all the way to the vent stack.... True with a high volume of water in the arm it could siphon the trap but that's why traps and trap arms are sized for the fixture they serve, to allow that air space, and if you did get a siphon effect it would be broken as soon as the water got to the stack, and that shouldn't take long if the arm is with in the required lenth


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## Chalk Box (Sep 5, 2011)

Brought it up to him again today and he agreed. Said to increase the trap size and the trap arm. But we are still losing the trap weir. Brought that up. And he said that there was no other way. True. Which is why I called him up there for his official input. But was told to just install it. Completely disagree so I told him I'd have nothing to with it and that if he wanted it done that way he could: do it himself or he could get someone else to do it. Someone else did it...:blink: :washing my hands:


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I'da fired ya.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Ballsy to stand up to the boss like that !!!!! I don't know if I would have done that , afraid they'd say hit the road, I would have if it where a safety hazard... But good for you , Was there not a way to put a circuit vent on it ???


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

RealLivePlumber said:


> I'da fired ya.


Fired under what grounds? For wanting to do the job the correct way. 

Kudos to Chalk Box for wanting to do things the correct way. :thumbsup:


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Chalk Box said:


> Brought it up to him again today and he agreed. Said to increase the trap size and the trap arm. But we are still losing the trap weir. Brought that up. And he said that there was no other way. True. Which is why I called him up there for his official input. But was told to just install it. Completely disagree so I told him I'd have nothing to with it and that if he wanted it done that way he could: do it himself or he could get someone else to do it. Someone else did it...:blink: :washing my hands:


In think this showed your master that you have integrity and while he may not always want it, it beats the guy who a. didn't know it was wrong and b. has no integrity 

Good for you


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Ron said:


> Fired under what grounds? For wanting to do the job the correct way.
> 
> Kudos to Chalk Box for wanting to do things the correct way. :thumbsup:


 Because the boss said so. And he's the boss. He probably had a real good reason for telling him to do it like that. And he probably forgot more than the lad will ever know. [op said there wasnt a good way to do it.] What are you gonna do, not put a drain to the sink? Wrap it up." Sorry Ma'am, you can't have no sink there. Why? cause we cant follow the letter of the code in this situation, sorry. See ya later"

Back when I worked for the man, I would often question instructions, but I would follow them to a tee. And guess what, after a while, you realize why he told you to do it like that. And that he really did know what he was talking about. And that there was a reason he told you to do something, even if it did not make sense at the time. :yes:


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Because the boss said so. And he's the boss. He probably had a real good reason for telling him to do it like that. And he probably forgot more than the lad will ever know. [op said there wasnt a good way to do it.] What are you gonna do, not put a drain to the sink? Wrap it up." Sorry Ma'am, you can't have no sink there. Why? cause we cant follow the letter of the code in this situation, sorry. See ya later"
> 
> Back when I worked for the man, I would often question instructions, but I would follow them to a tee. And guess what, after a while, you realize why he told you to do it like that. And that he really did know what he was talking about. And that there was a reason he told you to do something, even if it did not make sense at the time. :yes:


I guess the heath issue means nothing, is it all about the money, I could not sleep at night known the chance of sewer gases entering a house could cause someone to get sick, due to improper installation of a drain I was made to install, a good boss would have gone and found the correct way to do the job protecting the health of the occupants.

If you would have fired me over that I would have drawn UI on your nickle. 

His boss was totally wrong, I'm sure he talked with his boss in a tactful way.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

ianclapham said:


>


Let's have some fun. the top drawing, not the little one on the left but the one with the trap and the horizontal wye to vent. If that vertical off the wye is DRY then the fitting does not have to be a wye. A sanitary tee is legal. Or at least it is under the IPC


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

The second one down under OPSC is true but here we can also use a san-tee on it's back for a vent, dry vent only.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Chalk Box said:


> ...so I told him I'd have nothing to with it and that if he wanted it done that way he could: do it himself or he could get someone else to do it....





RealLivePlumber said:


> I'da fired ya.





RealLivePlumber said:


> Because the boss said so. And he's the boss.....Back when I worked for the man, I would often question instructions, but I would follow them to a tee. And guess what, after a while, you realize why he told you to do it like that....





Ron said:


> I guess the heath issue means nothing, is it all about the money....If you would have fired me over that I would have drawn UI on your nickle....


Hmmmm....This may come up in the Biz Bar.


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## Chalk Box (Sep 5, 2011)

Wow! So the company that is sending me to school to learn this trade the right way is going to fire me because I refuse to do something the wrong way? I'd gladly grab my tools and hit the pavement if that was the case. But, it wasn't. I'm still employed. I did it in a tactful way and in his brain he knows it wasn't right and he admitted that. Doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't do it. But it is what it is. Now its up to the inspector. 

Here's a great quote that I heard a few years ago and I live by...
"there's no warranty on poor craftsmanship"


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Let's have some fun. the top drawing, not the little one on the left but the one with the trap and the horizontal wye to vent. If that vertical off the wye is DRY then the fitting does not have to be a wye. A sanitary tee is legal. Or at least it is under the IPC


If a tee was used and someone was trying to clean the drain from the vent, the cable may go toward the trap. If this person forced the cable it may come out of the trap and make a bad day.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Chalk Box said:


> Wow! So the company that is sending me to school to learn this trade the right way is going to fire me because I refuse to do something the wrong way? I'd gladly grab my tools and hit the pavement if that was the case. But, it wasn't. I'm still employed. I did it in a tactful way and in his brain he knows it wasn't right and he admitted that. Doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't do it. But it is what it is. Now its up to the inspector.
> 
> Here's a great quote that I heard a few years ago and I live by...
> "there's no warranty on poor craftsmanship"


Who ever did it probably used a studor vent or pro vent after the trap and before the 1/8 bends, if there code approved in Texas.


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## Chalk Box (Sep 5, 2011)

Suggested the AAV's. Got told no. I tried. Inspection tomorrow? I'll post the update and maybe we can end this debate after all?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Chalk Box said:


> ....I'll post the update and maybe we can end this debate after all?


Tsk, tsk PZ rookie. 

It never ends that easily around here. :laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> Tsk, tsk PZ rookie.
> 
> It never ends that easily around here. :laughing:


Yea just cause it passed doesn't mean it was right....

All that means is you got away with it! :laughing:


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

When I was a 3rd year apprentice the part owner/journeyman/field Forman ( who spent all his time in the office doing bids) was on a job with me and told me to put a canted in the ground to tie PVC to cast, I said you can't do that it must be a mission no hub clamp, he said no ur wrong put it in , I said ok and put it off till after lunch, and approached him again, I was very respectful but got " dam it put in the cantex now " so I put it off for a few hours until he came to where I was working and I said I am positive that I need to go get a mission, and he said " god d&$ it do what the f&[email protected] I told you I am the f&@"ing journeyman on site and your just a stupid ass apprentice now put it in is that clear or do we have a problem ??? " No sir I said then told my helper (yea an apprentice with a helper) I'm putting this in but when the plumber running the job got back tomorrow and saw it your putting the mission in ..... So the next day me, the plumber running the job and the part owner walked around the site together to view the progress, when the plumber saw the cantex in the ground he said to me " what the hell did you put that in for you now dam well you can't use that " I said the respectfully " he said to " he explained to the owner that it wasn't code approved any more then the owner said " well you better put a mission in" and they walked off I gave the mission to my helper and said told that would happen !!!!!!!! Now that I'm licensed that owner ask me what's code,,, and respects me as a plumber but it's know where I work ""don't argue or buck the plumber shut up and do what he says no Ida ands or buts ". But I will listen to suggestions that I mite be wrong, and if I am I will admit it and tell the helper good catch but that doesn't happen very much Ok I'm done


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Let's have some fun. the top drawing, not the little one on the left but the one with the trap and the horizontal wye to vent. If that vertical off the wye is DRY then the fitting does not have to be a wye. A sanitary tee is legal. Or at least it is under the IPC


 If I remember correct , if the flood rim is above the vertical connection, most but not all of the Florida counties I canvassed wouldnt allow a tee. I was on a mission back then:laughing:.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Chalk Box said:


> Suggested the AAV's. Got told no. I tried. Inspection tomorrow? I'll post the update and maybe we can end this debate after all?


Well the the inspector ok what ever it was that was done there?


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## Chalk Box (Sep 5, 2011)

No inspection today. Someone had forgot to tie in the first floor sanitary and it would've been a helluva mess when we drained it... 
Inspection Monday. And guess who gets to spend their weekend tying in the first floor and testing 2-5? This guy! :money::yes:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

easttexasplumb said:


> If a tee was used and someone was trying to clean the drain from the vent, the cable may go toward the trap. If this person forced the cable it may come out of the trap and make a bad day.


How would it be possible to clean the drain from the vent? I hear this all the time. guys that climb on the roof and run the cable down. Down what? With the exception of 100 year old houses every house I have ever plumbed or worked in had most if not all of the vents tied together in the attic space. Trying to clear a drain from a vent would be a waste of time. How would you even approach that vent assuming the pipe is buried in the wall? :thumbsup:


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> How would it be possible to clean the drain from the vent? I hear this all the time. guys that climb on the roof and run the cable down. Down what? With the exception of 100 year old houses every house I have ever plumbed or worked in had most if not all of the vents tied together in the attic space. Trying to clear a drain from a vent would be a waste of time. How would you even approach that vent assuming the pipe is buried in the wall? :thumbsup:


 
Maybe the vent goes through the roof, or maybe there is a suspended ceiling with a clean out in the line there, or maybe there is a wall clean out in the vent. That is why you should always use directional fittings.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

easttexasplumb said:


> Maybe the vent goes through the roof, or maybe there is a suspended ceiling with a clean out in the line there, or maybe there is a wall clean out in the vent. That is why you should always use directional fittings.


I've cleaned out many many drains in my life and I can't ever recall cleaning any of them out through the vent. We don't install clean outs in vent lines around here. There is no provision in the code for installing clean outs in vents.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> There is no provision in the code for installing clean outs in vents.


Exception would be the loop vent, then again drainage fittings can only be used for a loop vent.

UPC requires an accessible cleanout at the wall.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I've cleaned out many many drains in my life and I can't ever recall cleaning any of them out through the vent. We don't install clean outs in vent lines around here. There is no provision in the code for installing clean outs in vents.


I have cleaned out many drains in my life and most have been accessed from vents. If a fixture was on the outside wall of a sctructure, I would put a clean out in the vent, above where the drain enters the vent. This would allow a cable to run into the drain from outside the sctructure, and allow water to be run while cabling the drain once it is flowing.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

easttexasplumb said:


> I have cleaned out many drains in my life and most have been accessed from vents. If a fixture was on the outside wall of a sctructure, I would put a clean out in the vent, above where the drain enters the vent. This would allow a cable to run into the drain from outside the sctructure, and allow water to be run while cabling the drain once it is flowing.


Here in the Northeast it is not an option for several reasons...

Steep pitched roofs is a major one, we get snow so there is pitch...

Tee'd vents is another. It is quite common to see and entire home with only one or two vents through the roof, even a 3 family home. You need a long, smart cable, to get to where it needs to go to hit a clog...

In the last 10 years I can recall cleaning one kitchen sink line from the roof.

The only other drains I have done from the roof are roof drains... :laughing:

Ya All just keep doing what you are doing and we'll keep doing what we are doing...:laughing:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

easttexasplumb said:


> I have cleaned out many drains in my life and most have been accessed from vents. If a fixture was on the outside wall of a sctructure, I would put a clean out in the vent, above where the drain enters the vent. This would allow a cable to run into the drain from outside the sctructure, and allow water to be run while cabling the drain once it is flowing.



As a rule, I try to combine all of the vents together and penetrate the roof only once at the back of the house -- More for aesthetic reasons than anything else.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> As a rule, I try to combine all of the vents together and penetrate the roof only once at the back of the house -- More for aesthetic reasons than anything else.


Although I agree with you for aesthetic reasons, if hoarfrost were ever to close off that one terminal...

OBC says all vent terminals are to be increased one trade size before penetrating the roof, but may be no less than 3". This is because of hoarfrost. That warm, moist air can cause a terminal to seal itself off in a jiffy.

Even if you have a single lav in a far corner of the building with an 1-1/4" vent, it still must penetrate as 3".


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I ch should have qualified the whole cleaning through the vent thing and I'm glad that Redwood did. We don't have a lot of homes on slabs around here and we dont have a lot of homes with 3 pitch roofs either.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> We dont have a lot of homes with 3 pitch roofs either.


But we have more than a few just like this... :laughing:
circa 1645


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Looks a lot like my house and every other one on in my neighborhood. I feel sorry for all them folks living in ticky tack's


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

easttexasplumb said:


> I have cleaned out many drains in my life and most have been accessed from vents. If a fixture was on the outside wall of a sctructure, I would put a clean out in the vent, above where the drain enters the vent. This would allow a cable to run into the drain from outside the sctructure, and allow water to be run while cabling the drain once it is flowing.


Yes yes yes. Most common like that are washer drains and kitchen sinks. No mess inside, and clean cables when you pull them out cuz the rinse job they get. I love it that way


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

U666A said:


> Although I agree with you for aesthetic reasons, if hoarfrost were ever to close off that one terminal...
> 
> OBC says all vent terminals are to be increased one trade size before penetrating the roof, but may be no less than 3". This is because of hoarfrost. That warm, moist air can cause a terminal to seal itself off in a jiffy.
> 
> Even if you have a single lav in a far corner of the building with an 1-1/4" vent, it still must penetrate as 3".


That depends where you are. In NJ specifically you don't have that concern. The code, at least in this state, assumes there will be no hoarfrost, therefore you can have multiple 1 1/2 & 2 inch penetrations. I'm not a fan of the numerous penetrations though because I gotta haul my fat ass up on the roof to put collars on all them. " I'm not afraid of falling, it's that sudden stop that scares me".


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