# Ice Cream Incident



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

So what would you guys do?

There is a marina about 2 hours south of here that wanted us to put in a ductless split air condtioner.

The building is old and has been renovated numerous times over the years and has probaly never seen a trades man there until us.

Well want happen was we installed the ductless split and ran a new power feed to the panel for the condensor outside. 

The panel had a main disconnect and no breakers were turned off.

Anyhow when we were finnished and the new AC was working the guy thanked us and we bought an ice cream from the cooler before we left.
It was the type of ice cream cooler that has a sliding top that just plugs into the wall.

A couple of days go by and the owner calls saying that he lost all his ice cream in the cooler because we turned off the breaker for the cooler.

We tell him we turned no breakers off. He wants $ 500.00 for the ice cream.

We tell him if that is the case we need to go out and check his electrical first to make sure it is our fault..... I want to check the current draw for the circuit with the cooler on it... more than likely there is a lot more on the circuit than just the ice cream cooler.

I tell him if I am right he has to pay for the service call and if I am wrong I will pay for the ice cream...... he gets mad and hangs up.

What am I to do.... I dont normally just hand back money unless I know for a fact we were in the wrong.

I could bet than the circuit is overloaded....it is not the first time that has happened.

The way I figure it is...that when the power was turned off to the panel every thing was off in the store for about 1 hour....and when the power was turned back on everything tried to start back up at the same time....on start up the amps are high and if the circuit is overloaded if would pop the breaker.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I wouldn't pay without a judgement if I know for a fact I turned off the main breaker off and then turned it back on.....My questions to you is....Why did you shut the entire stores power off just to replace an a.c unit? Why not just turn the breaker off to the A.C. unit?

Some liability insurances policies read that if you become a part of a lawsuit,you must notify your liability insurance co. At that point they have the option to pay the claim or provide you with a lawyer or let you handle it in small claims yourself. If you lose the case they pay the claim.

Your in Canada tho and insurances companies can make their own policy regarding lawsuits. I'm just going by past experience,not saying yours will be the same.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> I wouldn't pay without a judgement if I know for a fact I turned off the main breaker off and then turned it back on.....My questions to you is....Why did you shut the entire stores power off just to replace an a.c unit? Why not just turn the breaker off to the A.C. unit?
> 
> Some liability insurances policies read that if you become a part of a lawsuit,you must notify your liability insurance co. At that point they have the option to pay the claim or provide you with a lawyer or let you handle it in small claims yourself. If you lose the case they pay the claim.


It was a new install. Had to install new breaker for the AC unit. So inorder to install breaker and wire it is always best to turn the panel off.

I highly doubt that there will be a law suit..... all I asked was that I varify the electrical for that one circuit.....more than likely that circuit is feeding a lot more than the ice cream cooler as that type of cooler just plugs into the wall.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

You did right offering to investigate the situation. He refused, so that takes all liability off of you. I would get out the invoice for that job and note on the back the date and time he called, and that you offered to investigate the issue, and his response was him hanging up. 

Its like when people stop payment on a check. They can not do so if its a price dispute, but they can if you damaged something. But they have to let you make good on any repairs or prove you did not damage anything. Once its been proven or you made the repairs, they have to make the check good. If they refuse to let you submit a claim to your insurance, or let you investigate the situation, the bank will make the check good again.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> You did right offering to investigate the situation. He refused, so that takes all liability off of you. I would get out the invoice for that job and note on the back the date and time he called, and that you offered to investigate the issue, and his response was him hanging up.
> 
> Its like when people stop payment on a check. They can not do so if its a price dispute, but they can if you damaged something. But they have to let you make good on any repairs or prove you did not damage anything. Once its been proven or you made the repairs, they have to make the check good. If they refuse to let you submit a claim to your insurance, or let you investigate the situation, the bank will make the check good again.


The store owner didn't even hafta call.....he coulda just filed a lawsuit. he doesn't hafta let you check anything. If the store owner would have called and said "You turnned my breaker off to my ice cream and I'm gonna sue you" You probably would be toast if he did......the burden of proof is not that high for the store owner...all he would hafta do is take pictures of the bad ice cream. An insurance comapny would roll right over and pay.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> The store owner didn't even hafta call.....he coulda just filed a lawsuit. he doesn't hafta let you check anything. If the store owner would have called and said "You turnned my breaker off to my ice cream and I'm gonna sue you" You probably would be toast if he did......the burden of proof is not that high for the store owner...all he would hafta do is take pictures of the bad ice cream. An insurance comapny would roll right over and pay.


I had a home owner call me telling me that I unplugged her freezer and never plugged it back in and there was thousands of dollars of ruined food. I explained to her first thing I learned is never ever unplug a pump freezer or refrigerator to be able to plug in a rodder. Second if I needed a plug I prefer to go for the one the washing machine is plugged into 9 times out of 10 they are a 20 amp circuit and on their own. Before she let me get to my third point she said fine you will hear from my lawyer and hung up.

Her lawyer calls me I had him talk to my insurance agent. The agent told him they are not covering the damages for two reasons, anyone could of unplugged the freezer before or after I left. And that the machine I used was a Trojan Colt battery operated machine which there is no reason for me to unplug anything.

In this case the freezer may of popped the breaker due to drawing to much, or as OldSchool thinks to many items on one circuit all trying to start at the same time. Who knows maybe the Ice Cream was going to expire and the owner did not want to be stuck for it so he figures he trip the breaker and blame it on the contractor, in hopes the contractor will pay the bill or turn it over to the insurance company.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

His ice cream was fine until you showed up. I can see his point. If not for you coming into his store to do work, his ice cream would still be fine. That's probably how a judge would see it. 
How about this- you replace a W/H in a home. Behind the wall a copper fitting that wasn't soldered all the way onto pipe lets go behind the wall and causes a flood with damage. Who pays? That scenario happened to a company I used to work for. My ex-boss stepped up to the plate and paid. By the way it was a W/H on 6th floor of a condo that affected that unit and units on 5th floor and 4th floor.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> I had a home owner call me telling me that I unplugged her freezer and never plugged it back in and there was thousands of dollars of ruined food. I explained to her first thing I learned is never ever unplug a pump freezer or refrigerator to be able to plug in a rodder. Second if I needed a plug I prefer to go for the one the washing machine is plugged into 9 times out of 10 they are a 20 amp circuit and on their own. Before she let me get to my third point she said fine you will hear from my lawyer and hung up.
> 
> Her lawyer calls me I had him talk to my insurance agent. The agent told him they are not covering the damages for two reasons, anyone could of unplugged the freezer before or after I left. And that the machine I used was a Trojan Colt battery operated machine which there is no reason for me to unplug anything.
> 
> In this case the freezer may of popped the breaker due to drawing to much, or as OldSchool thinks to many items on one circuit all trying to start at the same time. Who knows maybe the Ice Cream was going to expire and the owner did not want to be stuck for it so he figures he trip the breaker and blame it on the contractor, in hopes the contractor will pay the bill or turn it over to the insurance company.


 
Wait until you get a smart customer that wants to screw ya.....your toast for the most part. Judges 99% of the time rule in favor of a homeowner if theres any doubt at all. Its hard to cast doubt on a customer who is well spoken and seems to be telling the truth...and has pictures of rotten food...especially if the homeowner says he saw you unplugg the freezer......its over for you. Let other chime in and compare i posts and decide whos right....I know i'll never convince you. Ever seen what can happen to a guy who gets accused of rape? It can ruin your whole life even tho it may not be true if the right person makes the claim.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> It was a new install. Had to install new breaker for the AC unit. So inorder to install breaker and wire it is always best to turn the panel off.
> 
> I highly doubt that there will be a law suit..... all I asked was that I varify the electrical for that one circuit.....more than likely that circuit is feeding a lot more than the ice cream cooler as that type of cooler just plugs into the wall.


Are you licensed to do electrical work? If not I would have had an electrician do that part of the job. I would think if that circuit had too much on it then it is on the owner not you.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I was thinking the same thing. 

We let the electrician do the electric work. 

And he always installs a dedicated circuit to anything we install. If he can't put in a dedicated circuit, and the owner won't go for a new panel/service, we all walk away.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Any electrician would laugh at this....I am! You do not need to shut an entire panel or sub simply to install a new circuit. That's like removing a car's engine inorder to replace the tires. Your theory of initial load or motor start up surge is correct. People think that if they have a 20A circuit, they can load it with a continous 20A load....not the case, it's 80% of the OCPD (over current protection device). That remaining 20% is left for a motor startup situation. Looks like you will be buying some ice cream.....An electrician would have waited the minute or two to see if any breakers would have thrown after you re-energized the panel. Expensive lesson.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

It really doesn't matter if you've done anything wrong. If the customer thinks you did, it is an uphill battle to prove them wrong. Case and point, a year ago, I put in a floor drain and moved a drain stack for someone. I got a call a few months ago for the carpet being flooded. This was in a basement so I had to trench and cut into the building drain to install this floor drain.

This customer was CONVINCED that the Drain lines I installed somehow flooded the underfloor of her house, and caused water to come up through the seam of the old and new concrete I put in. I tried explaining many many times that even if the drain pipe wasn't connected, it doesn't have constant water running through it to flood the drain. (this would happen overnight when no water was running). She still didn't believe me even though I was 100% positive it didn't have anything to do with me. 

The carpet was pulled up and she called in another plumber. I called my insurance agent at this point. It was clear she wasn't accepting my explination, it's always better to have the ins. company to handle it at that point. Turns out the furnace which was relocated into a small room that my floor drain served sweat when the AC was running so much it made the carpet wet. It sweat from a combination of the size of the room not having adaquate air flow, and her not changing the furnace filter once in the entire year it was installed. 

After it was proven without a shadow of a doubt it wasn't my fault, the customer still wanted me to pay the cost of removing and reinstalling the carpet. My insurance agent told her to piss up a rope. The point of this longwinded story is it doesn't matter what you did/didn't do. Sometimes people just want someone to pay. Unless you document 100% of everything you've touched after EVERY job you can be held liable for anything. 

Thats why when I have to shut the water off in an older house, with galvanized piping, I explain I'm not liable for rust particles damaging any faucets and shower cartridges. I explain the risk and have them sign so on the invoice. If they won't sign, I won't turn the water off.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Tankless said:


> Any electrician would laugh at this....I am! You do not need to shut an entire panel or sub simply to install a new circuit. That's like removing a car's engine inorder to replace the tires. Your theory of initial load or motor start up surge is correct. People think that if they have a 20A circuit, they can load it with a continous 20A load....not the case, it's 80% of the OCPD (over current protection device). That remaining 20% is left for a motor startup situation. Looks like you will be buying some ice cream.....An electrician would have waited the minute or two to see if any breakers would have thrown after you re-energized the panel. Expensive lesson.


*Well when you are installing new wire in to a panel and knocking out a new knock out in the side of the panel and installing a connector to the panel and then the breaker..... I would say you should always turn the panel off...try explaining that to work mans comp if you lose one of your guys working in a live panel.*

Common sense would say turn off the panel.

The circuit for the new ductless split that we installed was only for the Ductless. But the rest of the building wiring who know and there was only 15 amp breakers in the panel.

Its not the first time that I run into bad wiring.... lots of stuff like furnace tied into light circuits or fridge.

As for waiting around and looking at the panel.... normally if anything pops it does it right away....this was not the case because we never noticed anything.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Plumber Jim said:


> Are you licensed to do electrical work? If not I would have had an electrician do that part of the job. I would think if that circuit had too much on it then it is on the owner not you.


 
Yes we have a electrician on staff. There is nothing wrong with the work we did.... just that for some reason the ice cream cooler breaker tripped or as he says we turned it off


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

:yes:



OldSchool said:


> So what would you guys do?
> 
> There is a marina about 2 hours south of here that wanted us to put in a ductless split air condtioner.
> 
> ...


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

the man had frozen ice cream before you came into the pic 

you messed with the power

now his ice cream has melted

classic open and shut case

pay the man :thumbsup:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Was it tripped or shut off?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*should use an electrician*

I would probably have used an electrician 
then it would have been his problem.....


Be happy its only $500 bucks..... If the guy has 
not paid you yet , you can guarantee the money will
be deducted from the final bill....

then its back in your court.......:laughing:

its best to probably pay the bill and let it go....


500 bucks is getting off cheap..... 

ALSO, it would probably be wise to get a LIC. 
electrican out there to check the whole place out so you are not on the hook some
day if the building were to decide to burn itself down to the ground....

that would be very bad....


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

We collected at the end of the job......paid in full

and we did offer to send one of our guys out to check all his electrical....but I guess he is not willing to pay if we find something...and more than likely we will find circuits overload......because when this place was built I doubt that the wiring was run only for the ice cream cooler as it is just a standard plug in. 

I dont mind paying out..... but I need to know if we are responsible or not.

I wish he would have called first before turning the breaker back on.

but it was several days later according to him that he noticed.

Our electrical code allows 12 outlet on a 15 amp circuit but when it comes to compressors in fridges and freezers you need that breaker just for that appliance alone.

My best guess is the building was wired with 12 outlets on one breaker and the ice cream cooler is not on its own.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> We collected at the end of the job......paid in full
> 
> and we did offer to send one of our guys out to check all his electrical....but I guess he is not willing to pay if we find something...and more than likely we will find circuits overload......because when this place was built I doubt that the wiring was run only for the ice cream cooler as it is just a standard plug in.
> 
> ...


 
Let me ask you this...What if the building burnt down after you left and it was the result of overloaded breakers......Would you be partly responsible? I mean your electricians were the last guys in the box and they added a breaker. If that happened do you think they would blame you for "making space" in the panel? Maybe you are the ones who "switched some wires" around in the main panel.....overloading the circuit.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> Let me ask you this...What if the building burnt down after you left and it was the result of overloaded breakers......Would you be partly responsible? I mean your electricians were the last guys in the box and they added a breaker. If that happened do you think they would blame you for "making space" in the panel? Maybe you are the ones who "switched some wires" around in the main panel.....overloading the circuit.


We didnt alter any of the wiring that was existing...

There was space for the new breaker and no we would not be liable if the cause of something was something we did not do.

That would be no different than saying you repaired water line in the house and several days later on the other side of the house more water line started leaking....would you be liable for that? Some people may think so and customers may agrue that you are but you are not liable.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> We didnt alter any of the wiring that was existing...
> 
> There was space for the new breaker and no we would not be liable if the cause of something was something we did not do.
> 
> That would be no different than saying you repaired water line in the house and several days later on the other side of the house more water line started leaking....would you be liable for that? Some people may think so and customers may agrue that you are but you are not liable.


 
.:laughing: If you do electrical work it would be good practice to make sure the circuits are not overloaded before you flip the main breaker and walk off....Can we agree on that? Burn somthing down and see whos they come after.

I'll be working with an electrician today at a vaccant house....I will ask him what he thinks.

ADD> What if the guy takes you to court.....you will hafta drive 2 hrs to go to court....then if its like here they can get to court and he can ask for a new date.......making you come back on another day. Then when you finally get to court the guy says you came and installed the ac. unit and his ice cream was melted a day later. ...he called you and you wanted to come out and charge him if you found a problem with his electrical system. Yeah ok try that here and you would be laughed out of court. The judge would assume you failed to flip the breaker back on and that would be the end of it.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> .:laughing: If you do electrical work it would be good practice to make sure the circuits are not overloaded before you flip the main breaker and walk off....Can we agree on that? Burn somthing down and see whos they come after.
> 
> I'll be working with an electrician today at a vaccant house....I will ask him what he thinks.
> 
> ADD> What if the guy takes you to court.....you will hafta drive 2 hrs to go to court....then if its like here they can get to court and he can ask for a new date.......making you come back on another day. Then when you finally get to court the guy says you came and installed the ac. unit and his ice cream was melted a day later. ...he called you and you wanted to come out and charge him if you found a problem with his electrical system. Yeah ok try that here and you would be laughed out of court. The judge would assume you failed to flip the breaker back on and that would be the end of it.


 
If *we did no alteration* and we were not there to check out any of his potential other problems then why would we go about checking out his building electrical..

It will not get to court action....actually he would have to drive 2 hours north if if wanted to file a claim.......

I guess you dont know to much about electrical TM.....

Start up on motors draw high amperage.... have several motors on one 15 amp breaker and yes it will trip the breaker..... 

*It may not trip when you turn it on but it can trip once everything does turn on.* *Compressors in general do not turn on right away there is a time delay built in. The is to safe gaurd the system if the pressure is already too high in the compressor. Refridgeratant has to equalize in system first so the compressor does not turn on under high pressure conditions.*

*So to answer your questions....the compressor does not turn on as soon as you turn the breaker on.*


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> If *we did no alteration* and we were not there to check out any of his potential other problems then why would we go about checking out his building electrical..
> 
> It will not get to court action....actually he would have to drive 2 hours north if if wanted to file a claim.......
> 
> ...


Sounds like your guys are the ones who dont know about electrical work or they would have checked and made sure nothing was overloaded. You did alter the electrical system...you added a breaker. Was it inspected?

My electrician said that if you add breakers into a panel your responsible for checking the circuits coming from that panel are overloaded...wether you worked on those circuits or not. he said its major liability issues for leaving unsafe conditions wether you caused it or not....its your job to catch it and notify the owner of the problem...and not leave the breakers ON to the overloaded circuits. He said your lucky it didn't burn down.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I see, so you do a complete inspection of every home you set foot in.
If you find any code violations, you then notify the property owner. If they refuse to address them right then and there, you walk out. Yep, since we all know you operate that way you absolutely have the right to criticize his behavior in said incident.





























TheMaster said:


> Sounds like your guys are the ones who dont know about electrical work or they would have checked and made sure nothing was overloaded. You did alter the electrical system...you added a breaker. Was it inspected?
> 
> My electrician said that if you add breakers into a panel your responsible for checking the circuits coming from that panel are overloaded...wether you worked on those circuits or not. he said its major liability issues for leaving unsafe conditions wether you caused it or not....its your job to catch it and notify the owner of the problem...and not leave the breakers ON to the overloaded circuits. He said your lucky it didn't burn down.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

NEC Article #? 




TheMaster said:


> Sounds like your guys are the ones who dont know about electrical work or they would have checked and made sure nothing was overloaded. You did alter the electrical system...you added a breaker. Was it inspected?
> 
> My electrician said that if you add breakers into a panel *your responsible for checking the circuits coming from that panel are overloaded...wether you worked on those circuits or not.* he said its major liability issues for leaving unsafe conditions wether you caused it or not....its your job to catch it and notify the owner of the problem...and not leave the breakers ON to the overloaded circuits. He said your lucky it didn't burn down.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Protech said:


> NEC Article #?


Oh that is TMOC 51.752-29a...:laughing:

AKA *TM*'s *O*wn *C*ode :whistling2:

Of course it doesn't apply in Ontario Canada so I don't know why he's yapping so hard...


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> I see, so you do a complete inspection of every home you set foot in.
> If you find any code violations, you then notify the property owner. If they refuse to address them right then and there, you walk out. Yep, since we all know you operate that way you absolutely have the right to criticize his behavior in said incident.





Protech said:


> NEC Article #?


I didn't say do a complete inspection everywhere he sets foot in. But when your adding breakers or a breaker to a panel box in what sounds like a run down shack full of coolers with motors in them.........while adding an A.C unit.,.....a real electrician would have known better.....and if he didn't he would be buying ice cream if the owner of the ice cream wanted him to. Simple as that.

You think because you follow the NEC your immune to being sued? Let that place burn to the ground and kill a few people after go you tinker in the panel and add more load on the building and see if they dont hang you by your nuts.

I think matt made a post a while back about a guy who went to LOOK at a job...did not even do any work and his insurance comapny PAID..settled out of court. It was about a hot and cold cross connection and some guy got burned at a urinal. 

Thanks for hanging out with us...we appreciate it:thumbsup:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Its one thing if you knew a condition existed and its a different condtion if you didn't know a condition existed.

Clearly you can not be held responsible for an unknown condition.

TM your electrical friend is blowing hot air.....so you are telling me the other day you had him do work for you.....so did he check and test every circuit in the building to make sure his electrical was up to code :laughing:.

You were there so how about telling the truth.... I highly doubt that anybody would be testing other circuits other than what they are therefore in the first place.

Lets say you were changing an electric HWT.... :laughing: so you go around the building turning everything on and I mean everything to see current draw at the breakers. 

Now for commercial work Oh Boy I would be there for a month just testing circuits :laughing:

If that is the case you must be charging $ 2,000 labour for the HWT install because of all the testing going on.

So your logic and your electrical buddies logic is nonsense.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Its one thing if you knew a condition existed and its a different condtion if you didn't know a condition existed.
> 
> Clearly you can not be held responsible for an unknown condition.
> 
> ...


Did you get the proper inspections?  I know you didn't or you would have already screamed it:laughing: 

"Now for commercial oh boy"..is what you say I thought the store you were working on is commercial:whistling2:

I never said an electrcian was working for me....just with me on a job. He said that when you add equipment you hafta get an inspection and in a commercial building like a store they would have checked the coolers and made sure they each had their own circuit. Even more so in a ran down roadside store. Simple as that.

Its all about reasonable expectation......you cant go into a store a commercial building and start adding equipment...adding breakers in the panel and ignore that the circuits are overloaded and might burn the place down.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

:laughing:Ok lets do this another way. lets say we are in court. I'm going to present my case.

Yes your honor I had the defendents company come out and add an air conditioner and during process of the work they opened my electrical panel to add a new electrical breaker and then installed the air conditioner. Everything was fine or so I thought until an employee called me two days later and says my ice cream melted.

The ice cream cooler has been in the same location for 2 years and this has NEVER happened before. I brought a witness...my ice cream distrubutor that comes by and fills my ice cream cooler once a week and he would like to speak as a witness on my behalf.

"Yes your honor I'm the ice cream delivery man.....i have been bringing ice cream to the plainiffs store for 2 years once a week and we have never had a problem with the cooler or the ice cream melting."

(Business owner again) Ok your honor after we found the ice cream had melted we went to the panel box and found the breaker in the off position. I turned the breaker back on and its been working fine ever since just like it has for 2 years. I called the defendant and told himof the trouble and he said he elieved the trouble to be from overloaded breakers. It scared me that he said that so i decided to have an electrician come and check my wiring........i know wiring causes fires when overloaded. Now my electrician would like to speak.

Yes your honor I'm the electrician that the plainiff called to check his wiring and I didn't find a problem....its all up to code. Oh and the plainiff didn't get any permits for the job according to the inspection dept.

WTF do you think the judge is going to do?:laughing: Pay the MAN:laughing:

ADD> Whats your defense gonna be..."I didn't turn that breaker off and it was on when I left" Ok see how well that works:laughing:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

I can't help but wonder if TM became a plumber because he failed the bar exam.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> I can't help but wonder if TM became a plumber because he failed the bar exam.


I had a lawyer tell me that no matter what you do you will always have liability while operating a business. Thats why you have insurance. Also in court a business almost has to prove its innocent. Thats hard to do when a guy is saying you left a breaker off.......the judge will side with the one who suffered loss if he cant decide whos right. They do it all the time.

Its called "the cost of doing business" in its purest form.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Sorry that I didnt come back with an answer right away TM.....I had to go to work.

But yes we buy a permit for everything...when they inspect or if the even go out is up to them.....up here they dont come out for breaker install or equipment such as a AC unit.

Beside your ice cream delivery guy could only testify to the ice cream being reordered which the guy would only need the bill of sale.

Like PC says stick to your plumbing as your knowledge of law or electrical is about the same.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

As for commercial work I do not really consider a corner store commercial as such....

When I say commercial I am talking about large hotels or malls.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> As for commercial work I do not really consider a corner store commercial as such....
> 
> When I say commercial I am talking about large hotels or malls.


*Zing!* :laughing:

How about a peanut farm?:laughing:


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> I can't help but wonder if TM became a plumber because he failed the bar exam.


Nice one PC......:laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Sorry that I didnt come back with an answer right away TM.....I had to go to work.
> 
> But yes we buy a permit for everything...when they inspect or if the even go out is up to them.....up here they dont come out for breaker install or equipment such as a AC unit.
> 
> ...


No problem some of us hafta work.
Then you dont have any backup if the code department didn't go out. 
The ice cream delivery guy somtimes supplies the freezer...infact some of them own the freezer and lease it to the store and fill it for the store.
Sounds like your the one with problem maybe stick to what you know...since you posted it. I talked back to my electrician and he says every sparky knows not to throw a main breaker in a building like that with alot of compressors and just walk away:laughing:



OldSchool said:


> As for commercial work I do not really consider a corner store commercial as such....
> 
> When I say commercial I am talking about large hotels or malls.


Well your definition of commercial is defective. What would you consider it?? residential?:laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> No problem some of us hafta work.
> Then you dont have any backup if the code department didn't go out.
> The ice cream delivery guy somtimes supplies the freezer...infact some of them own the freezer and lease it to the store and fill it for the store.
> Sounds like your the one with problem maybe stick to what you know...since you posted it. I talked back to my electrician and he says every sparky knows not to throw a main breaker in a building like that with alot of compressors and just walk away:laughing:
> ...


 
Well TM we do a hell of a lot of AC and Refrigeration and sorry to tell you that if everything is proper wire size and proper breaker size then there should be no problem if all the compressors are in good shape. If the compressor trips a breaker then more than likely there is a problem with the compressor or the circuit is overloaded which is not proper.

If the compressor fails or trips a breaker then there is numerous reasons why and that would be a total other thread that I could start if you wish.

Now to educate you and your electrical buddy.....

Main breaker is 200 amp in this location..... if there would be an overall problem the entire panel would have to draw over 200 amps.

Turning back on the main would not affect any other breakers.... each circuit is protected by its own breaker at what ever amps the breaker is.
If there would be a problem then that individual breaker would trip on its own.

That being said each individual breaker is independent of each other and the current draw for that circuit would have to be over the set amperage.

So your electrical buddy does not know to much. Just because he says he is an electrician doesn't mean he knows or understands what he is talking about.... I find that with most trades in general 

As for definition of commercial... in the sense of of buisness prospective yes it is commercial. But this to small IMO to be considered that.

Its all in the eye of the beholder, you may think some thing is large and I may think that it is small.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> Well TM we do a hell of a lot of AC and Refrigeration and sorry to tell you that if everything is proper wire size and proper breaker size then there should be no problem if all the compressors are in good shape. If the compressor trips a breaker then more than likely there is a problem with the compressor or the circuit is overloaded which is not proper.
> 
> If the compressor fails or trips a breaker then there is numerous reasons why and that would be a total other thread that I could start if you wish.
> 
> ...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Well TM we do a hell of a lot of AC and Refrigeration and sorry to tell you that if everything is proper wire size and proper breaker size then there should be no problem if all the compressors are in good shape. If the compressor trips a breaker then more than likely there is a problem with the compressor or the circuit is overloaded which is not proper.
> 
> If the compressor fails or trips a breaker then there is numerous reasons why and that would be a total other thread that I could start if you wish.
> 
> ...


Heres what I think happened. You didn't have any room in the main panel so you combined some circuits and you overloaded one. I can tell ya this......IN America if that ice cream owner wanted you to pay for that ice cream your would pay for it one way or th other. Thats a fact. He doesn't hafta prove anything and he doesn't hafta let you back in his store to check anything.

Commercial is commercial....you call it what you want but then again your wrong about that too.

Please dont start another thread...this is not a jack of all threads forum its a plumbing forum. What you posted should have been in OFF TOPIC. But I can tell you now that if you dont check for things like that(a overloaded circuit when adding breakers in the panel) your in for more problems in the future....so goodluck and I hope you dont burn somthing down because all the excuses you gave me are not going to help you any when its all piled up charcoal and the fire chief is saying it started where you last worked.....now tell me I'm fulla shiot:laughing: At the very least you would go broke trying to defend yourself and repair you company name....if its still in business.

I've asked 2 electricians and they both said the same thing....THERES BIG TIME LIABILITY IN THIS WORK EVEN OF YOU DO EVERYTHING CORRECTLY AND WHEN PEOPLE DIE THEY ARE LOOKING TO PUT SOMEONES HEAD ON A PLATTER....AND THATS THE LAST GUY IN THAT PANEL.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> Heres what I think happened. You didn't have any room in the main panel so you combined some circuits and you overloaded one. I can tell ya this......IN America if that ice cream owner wanted you to pay for that ice cream your would pay for it one way or th other. Thats a fact. He doesn't hafta prove anything and he doesn't hafta let you back in his store to check anything.
> 
> Commercial is commercial....you call it what you want but then again your wrong about that too.
> 
> ...


Ask 100 electricans TM it would not matter.... *I gave you no excuses* *just the facts* and you my friend just made up stuff as you were going along....

I have been doing Plumbing and HVAC for more than the time before you were your fathers little squirk. 

As for Off Topic ... is it really.... Plumbing is a mechanical trade not just house plumbing. We are a full mechanical company.

And another thing your logic is what limits you to who and what you are... *There is nothing wrong with the panel ... do you get it ? or should I repeat myself over and over again until you get it.*

I really hate repeating myself.... and at most times I would freak if an employee made me tell them over and over again... It would be grounds to have your arse kicked.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Dang! Oldschool is going to kick TM's young arse. :laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> *Well when you are installing new wire in to a panel and knocking out a new knock out in the side of the panel and installing a connector to the panel and then the breaker..... I would say you should always turn the panel off...try explaining that to work mans comp if you lose one of your guys working in a live panel.*
> 
> Common sense would say turn off the panel.
> 
> ...


How many freezers or coolers call for a 15 amp breaker?


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Please dont start another thread...this is not a jack of all threads forum its a plumbing forum. What you posted should have been in OFF TOPIC.


TM should be a moderator. Look at those mad skills keeping the masses on topic.

I love how we have went from melted ice cream to dead people...:laughing::laughing:

Be careful OldSchool the ice cream could melt OR people could die! 

The hits keep coming.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

What electrician looks into a main panel box and sees nothing but 15's and proceeds to add a breaker knowing there are freezers and God knows whatever else in the the building? Seems like they wouldn't allow any work to continue until the current dangers are corrected.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

I thought this was a PLUMBING forum...............:whistling2:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> What electrician looks into a main panel box and sees nothing but 15's and proceeds to add a breaker knowing there are freezers and God knows whatever else in the the building? Seems like they wouldn't allow any work to continue until the current dangers are corrected.


 
Tm stick with plumbing of faucets as you clearly barking up the wrong tree....I may come down and stomp you


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

slickrick said:


> Dang! Oldschool is going to kick TM's young arse. :laughing:


Yea old n wise vs. young dumb and fulla... :laughing:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Yea old n wise vs. young dumb and fulla... :laughing:


fulla what?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Tm stick with plumbing of faucets as you clearly barking up the wrong tree....I may come down and stomp you


Last guy who told me that ended up eating his dinner through a straw.:thumbsup: Capisce?


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I'll go on the assumption that you guys are just busting balls. We don't need to cross over into threatening physical harm.:no:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Who is too say that the freezers are all one the same breaker? Just seeing a bunch of 15As means nothing. You aren't an electrician and it shows.

I’m not a licensed electrician either, but I did go to school for it and I used to play helper all of the time with journeyman sparkys. I can tell you that it is NOT standard practice to check if other breakers are overloaded when installing a new branch circuit on a panel. I have NEVER seen an electrician sit down and do the math on all of the loads on a panel unless they were called out to fix a constantly tripping breaker or some other situation that warrants it.

Why don’t we start a nice little thread over con contractortalk.com in the electrical section and see what all the master sparkys have to say?



TheMaster said:


> What electrician looks into a main panel box and sees nothing but 15's and proceeds to add a breaker knowing there are freezers and God knows whatever else in the the building? Seems like they wouldn't allow any work to continue until the current dangers are corrected.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

so to sum this up, the ice cream melted after you got done with your job, sure its not your fault, its not your job to make sure everything is working properly after you shut down the power,

think about all the children


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Yea old n wise vs. young dumb and fulla... :laughing:





PlumbCrazy said:


> fulla what?


I figured so many things could fit in there that I'd just leave it blank and let the others plug in what they figured he was fulla...:laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> Who is too say that the freezers are all one the same breaker? Just seeing a bunch of 15As means nothing. You aren't an electrician and it shows.
> 
> I’m not a licensed electrician either, but I did go to school for it and I used to play helper all of the time with journeyman sparkys. I can tell you that it is NOT standard practice to check if other breakers are overloaded when installing a new branch circuit on a panel. I have NEVER seen an electrician sit down and do the math on all of the loads on a panel unless they were called out to fix a constantly tripping breaker or some other situation that warrants it.
> 
> Why don’t we start a nice little thread over con contractortalk.com in the electrical section and see what all the master sparkys have to say?


Permanent equipment like freezers must have its own circuit to satisfy the code. They are not wired with 14ga on a 15amp circuit...it takes at least a 12 ga 20 amp circuit.

"I'm not a licensed electrician but I did go to school for it" Am I suppose to be impressed?:laughing: Sounds like every handyman in home depot in the electrical isle to me friend. Your the worst kind...they think they know it all....dangerous:thumbsup: Go ahead and start your thread and see if they dont tell you th same....you dont wire freezers with 14 ga and 15 amp breakers....Got that?


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Matt said:


> I'll go on the assumption* that you guys are just busting balls*. We don't need to cross over into threatening physical harm.:no:


That's my job!


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Permanent equipment like freezers must have its own circuit to satisfy the code.


They were not permanent. They were small free standing chest freezers that plug into a standard duplex outlet. 

Just as OldSchool said in chat last night. 

He also said they pulled 5 running amps. 

You make it sound like he's got a walk-in freezer on a 15 amp circuit. That is simply not true.

There could be a fire, people could die, and the ice cream could melt. 

BRB I got insurance to sell..


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

see post #59. Matt beat me to the punch. 

edit: Also, in addition to my formal schooling a field experience, I also passed the state solar contractor exam which covers both plumbing AND electrical questions.

As far as, accusing me of being a know it all, I think you have quite a bit a gall (what else is new). You have no clue about electrical and you attempt to criticize someone who does. You are dead wrong and simultaneously talking down to people more qualified than you. The funniest part is, everyone is in on the joke but you.



TheMaster said:


> Permanent equipment like freezers must have its own circuit to satisfy the code. They are not wired with 14ga on a 15amp circuit...it takes at least a 12 ga 20 amp circuit.
> 
> "I'm not a licensed electrician but I did go to school for it" Am I suppose to be impressed?:laughing: Sounds like every handyman in home depot in the electrical isle to me friend. Your the worst kind...they think they know it all....dangerous:thumbsup: Go ahead and start your thread and see if they dont tell you th same....you dont wire freezers with 14 ga and 15 amp breakers....Got that?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

BTW Themaster, do you even own a copy of the current NEC?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Protech said:


> see post #59. Matt beat me to the punch.
> 
> edit: Also, in addition to my formal schooling a field experience, I also passed the state solar contractor exam which covers both plumbing AND electrical questions.
> 
> *As far as, accusing me of being a know it all, I think you have quite a bit a gall (what else is new). You have no clue about electrical and you attempt to criticize someone who does. You are dead wrong and simultaneously talking down to people more qualified than you. The funniest part is, everyone is in on the joke but you.*


A true legend in his own mind.... :laughing::thumbup:

But missed by many others...:whistling2:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Protech said:


> BTW Themaster, do you even own a copy of the current NEC?


No but he did write the TMOC* code book which applies worldwide...

*TMOC = *T*he *M*aster's *O*wn *C*ode... :laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> see post #59. Matt beat me to the punch.
> 
> edit: Also, in addition to my formal schooling a field experience, I also passed the state solar contractor exam which covers both plumbing AND electrical questions.
> 
> As far as, accusing me of being a know it all, I think you have quite a bit a gall (what else is new). You have no clue about electrical and you attempt to criticize someone who does. You are dead wrong and simultaneously talking down to people more qualified than you. The funniest part is, everyone is in on the joke but you.


I think your a good reader and google alot.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I think your a good reader and google alot.


Google can be quite informative. It reminds me of this board. Ya gotta wade through endless crap to find the facts.

IMO Protech is far more intelligent than you TM. Light years.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Matt said:


> Google can be quite informative. It reminds me of this board. Ya gotta wade through endless crap to find the facts.
> 
> IMO Protech is far more intelligent than you TM. Light years.


IMO Get off ur knees bro.:thumbsup:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> IMO Get off ur knees bro.:thumbsup:


Now what reason would I have to suck up to Protech? What can he do for me if I win his approval.

I simply stated the obvious.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Matt said:


> Google can be quite informative. It reminds me of this board. Ya gotta wade through endless crap to find the facts.
> 
> IMO Protech is far more intelligent than you TM. Light years.


I agree 110% Matt.. TM has about 1% of Protechs knowledge and brain capacity and thats being nice.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

TM - "OWNED" If I were you, I would slither away and wait for this thread to be buried. :yes:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I just read the OP not the whole thread but here's my take on this because I suspect that this same thing has happed to quite a few of us in the trades. Usually its a customers fridge or freezer but the end result is the same. I have to believe in the best of people though some are not worthy. You have to ask yourself if arguing or fighting this is worth the bad press that will likely be spread to everyone this guys knows. I think its better to settle and apologize (even if you didn't do it) and file with your insurance or just eat it. File it under crap happens, cost of business.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> I agree 110% Matt.. TM has about 1% of Protechs knowledge and brain capacity and thats being nice.


I can't say for certain what TM's brain capacity is...
But it is obvious that he stopped learning which shows that whatever brain capacity he has is no longer being used to it's fullest potential.:whistling2:

I've been in the trade a couple of years now... :laughing:
And I learn new things all the time...
The day I stop learning is the day I'm going to hang it up... :whistling2:

I bet Plumber Bill is still learning even today...:laughing:
But then again he probably has slowed down a little having much more knowledge accumulated in his years...:whistling2:

That's a lot different than closing your mind though....:laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> TM - "OWNED" If I were you, I would slither away and wait for this thread to be buried. :yes:


I could be rude but whats the point. I'd hurt your feelings and MAtt would blow my message box like he did a couple weeks back with warnings.:laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Bottom line is if you work at some ones home or business and they suffer a loss of 500.00 worth of ice cream after you turn the power off to work on it.....your responsible. A lawyer would tell you to pay....call yours if you have one and ask him. The customer does not hafta let you back on the property to check anything.......Goodluck explaining it to the judge. A Judge will weigh the probability of what happened and will rule against a business 99% of the time.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I could be rude but whats the point. I'd hurt your feelings and *Matt would blow my message box like he did a couple weeks back with warnings.*:laughing:


Obviously you failed to "Learn" anything from those warnings... :laughing:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*cant we all just get along???*

cant we all just get along???:laughing::laughing:

all old school has to do is eat the ice cream 
and move on...


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Obviously you failed to "Learn" anything from those warnings... :laughing:


Again....whats so funny? Sure I learned that a handfull of people here cant fight their own battles.......and when all else fails they resort to personal attacks and like to post personal information about me in an attempt to shut me up...because they dont have any valid points to argue. Thats what I learned.....and that you :laughing: at stupid stuff too much.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> cant we all just get along???:laughing::laughing:
> 
> all old school has to do is eat the ice cream
> and move on...


And enjoy the profit he still made on the job because his pricing structure is still better than that of "A small time hack making big time jack"... :laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I think there are a handfull of broke mofos on here and they like to hate......so continue the hate but it will not help you improve your situation.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> TM - "OWNED" If I were you, I would slither away and wait for this thread to be buried. :yes:


Owned, Pawned, Tea Bagged... Whatever, He's to dumb to catch on to it! :laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I think there are a handfull of broke mofos on here and they like to hate......so continue the hate but it will not help you improve your situation.


Have you looked in a mirror lately? :laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> Again....whats so funny? Sure I learned that a handfull of people here cant fight their own battles.......and when all else fails they resort to personal attacks and like to post personal information about me in an attempt to shut me up...because they dont have any valid points to argue. Thats what I learned.....and that you :laughing: at stupid stuff too much.


 
Arguing a point and trying to make foolish asssumptions and repeating yourself over and over again is not debating or informative.

TM learn to accept when you are wrong... or are you never wrong...


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Arguing a point and trying to make foolish asssumptions and repeating yourself over and over again is not debating or informative.
> 
> TM learn to accept when you are wrong... or are you never wrong...


All I can tell ya if you go to court get ready to pay...you will lose the case. And if your sure you wouldn't call the guy up and tell him...sue me and give him your insurance companies name.:whistling2: After all you know you didn't do anything wrong.:thumbsup:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> All I can tell ya if you go to court get ready to pay...you will lose the case. And if your sure you wouldn't call the guy up and tell him...sue me and give him your insurance companies name.:whistling2: After all you know you didn't do anything wrong.:thumbsup:


 
You really think I care if it goes that far 

This is small stuff....but to you it may be big.....Insurance :laughing: my deductible is higher than that.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I could be rude but whats the point. I'd hurt your feelings and MAtt would blow my message box like he did a couple weeks back with warnings.:laughing:


Like you have ever been concerned with hurting anyone's feelings. . . :whistling2:

You keep insinuating that I don't fight my own battles; however, you are the one who keeps calling in the mods and Nathan. I wish the mods could bring forth official complaint counts. Then we would see who's doing the crying and whining. And it would not be me I assure you.

Maybe you get warnings often because you are often the one breaking the rules. :whistling2: That's how an intelligent person would see it. Not you, someone must have it in for you. Please stop the paranoia, it is not becoming of a grown man.

BTW - your behavior is a nuisance at times, never a battle. Battle would imply having to use a lot of effort.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Again....whats so funny? Sure I learned that a handfull of people here cant fight their own battles.......and when all else fails they resort to personal attacks and like to post personal information about me in an attempt to shut me up...because they dont have any valid points to argue. Thats what I learned.....and that you :laughing: at stupid stuff too much.


So you are saying that you are our "Resident Forum Troll" that: 

"Preys on a handful of people here cant fight their own battles" 
"When all else fails resorts to personal attacks"
"Doesn't have any valid points to argue"

Maybe You are just hearing that some people would like you to attempt to shut up! :laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> You really think I care if it goes that far
> 
> This is small stuff....but to you it may be big.....Insurance :laughing: my deductible is higher than that.


News flash.........Any good business liability insurance doesn't have a deductible. Not so funny now is it?
Do you own a real business or just work for one ...or neither?


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Do you own your own business TM?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> News flash.........Any good business liability insurance doesn't have a deductible. Not so funny now is it?
> Do you own a real business or just work for one ...or neither?


 
I can see you dont know what you are talking about...

When you get to my volume of buisness then your 2 cents may have some net worth.

5 mil policy and cost of insurance is based on income ( revenue ) ....... I know yours is small so you have no idea what you are talking about.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Matt said:


> Do you own your own business TM?


Personal business or plumbing business?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> News flash.........Any good business liability insurance doesn't have a deductible. Not so funny now is it?
> *Do you own a real business or just work for one ...or neither*?


again full of foolish assumptions


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> I can see you dont know what you are talking about...
> 
> When you get to my volume of buisness then your 2 cents may have some net worth.
> 
> 5 mil policy and cost of insurance is based on income ( revenue ) ....... I know yours is small so you have no idea what you are talking about.


Breaking news.......Most all liability insurances policies are based on revenue no matter what the limit. What do you think about that?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> Breaking news.......Most all liability insurances policies are based on revenue no matter what the limit. What do you think about that?


What do I think?

I think it is time for me to make you your own thread and you can enlighten all of us with your advice.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Personal business or plumbing business?


Your plumbing business. Do you solely own and operate it? As you have claimed many times in the past.

You throw around wild accusations about others. If you solely own and operate it out of your home, I should be able to find you in the Alabama licensing database. Right?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> again full of foolish assumptions


News flash.......That was a question..not a statement. Understand?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> News flash.........*Any good business liability insurance doesn't have a deductible.* Not so funny now is it?
> Do you own a real business or just work for one ...or neither?


Oh my...

If I didn't have such a good signature already I would certainly use that one...:laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Matt said:


> Your plumbing business. Do you solely own and operate it? As you have claimed many times in the past.
> 
> You throw around wild accusations about others. If you solely own and operate it out of your home, I should be able to find you in the Alabama licensing database. Right?


I'm the president of my corporation. I dont look online for proof I'm in business so I'm not sure what you will find online.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> News flash.........*Any good business liability insurance doesn't have a deductible.* Not so funny now is it?
> Do you own a real business or just work for one ...or neither?


Looks like a statement to me..
Of course it is followed by a question...


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Oh my...
> 
> If I didn't have such a good signature already I would certainly use that one...:laughing:


Hey news flash for you too........a good liability insurance policy will also pay for a legal defense. Throw that in your new sig line too:thumbsup: Quote me on it.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Looks like a statement to me..
> Of course it is followed by a question...


Try to keep up red....He claimed that I assumed he was not in business or worked for a company or neither. Go back and read the post. It was formed as a question. Questions are not statements....assumptions are statements. get it now?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> Try to keep up red....He claimed that I assumed he was not in business or worked for a company or neither. Go back and read the post. It was formed as a question. Questions are not statements....assumptions are statements. get it now?


Well you can post that comment on your Just ask TheMaster thread.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Try to keep up red....He claimed that I assumed he was not in business or worked for a company or neither. Go back and read the post. It was formed as a question. Questions are not statements....assumptions are statements. get it now?


Please slow down and pay more attention to the garbage spewing forth from your keyboard.

It is your post that is unclear...:laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> News flash.........*Any good business liability insurance doesn't have a deductible.* Not so funny now is it?
> Do you own a real business or just work for one ...or neither?





OldSchool said:


> again full of foolish assumptions


I'll stand by on my original post...:laughing:
A statement followed by a question...
http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/ice-cream-incident-10057/index10/#post135059

And don't "Assume" we know where that goes...:laughing:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

OH MY GAWD RED... I don't have a good business liability policy :laughing:


Hmmmmm no deductable, wonder what that policy costs :blink: must be written by Dewey, Cheatham and Howe


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> News flash.........Any good business liability insurance doesn't have a deductible. Not so funny now is it?
> Do you own a real business or just work for one ...or neither?


This is what I posted. Its a question read that last sentence for me.



OldSchool said:


> again full of foolish assumptions


Here is what the guy responded to my post with.



Redwood said:


> I'll stand by on my original post...:laughing:
> A statement followed by a question...
> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/ice-cream-incident-10057/index10/#post135059
> 
> ...


Now here is you still not getting it. Your starting to slip.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> OH MY GAWD RED... I don't have a good business liability policy :laughing:
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm no deductable, wonder what that policy costs :blink: must be written by Dewey, Cheatham and Howe


Maybe you should go to this thread and find out how you can buy proper insurance protection for your business from a self proclaimed expert that is never wrong... :laughing:

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f13/just-ask-themaster-10104/


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> News flash.........*Any good business liability insurance doesn't have a deductible.* Not so funny now is it?
> Do you own a real business or just work for one ...or neither?





TheMaster said:


> This is what I posted. Its a question read that last sentence for me.
> 
> Here is what the guy responded to my post with.
> 
> Now here is you still not getting it. Your starting to slip.


The first thing I read there was a statement where you made an incorrect assumption and your point is? :laughing:


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Redwood said:


> The first thing I read there was a statement where you made an incorrect assumption and your point is? :laughing:


With all due respect you dont own a plumbing business. Do you have a current general business liability policy?


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Originally Posted by *TheMaster*  
_News flash.........*Any good business liability insurance doesn't have a deductible.* Not so funny now is it?
Do you own a real business or just work for one ...or neither_

_It reads as a statement (.*Any good business liability insurance doesn't have a deductible) *followed by a question *(Not so funny now is it?
Do you own a real business or just work for one ...or neither)*_

_If you meant it to be read and interpreted differently then you need to go back and re-word it. The assumption made by everyone here with a high school diploma is that you are telling us that a good business policy does not have a deductible _


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Originally Posted by *TheMaster*
> _News flash.........*Any good business liability insurance doesn't have a deductible.* Not so funny now is it?_
> _Do you own a real business or just work for one ...or neither_
> 
> ...


maybe he should have been a tad bit clearer on what part of the post he was refering to as an assumption. A good gerneral liability policy does not have a deductible...thats my opinion...not an assumption.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> With all due respect you dont own a plumbing business. Do you have a current general business liability policy?


I work for a company and am not and owner.
That has never been disguised by me in an, way, shape or, form.
Even I with out running a business know that the insurance our shop has also has a deductible which we have to pay on larger claims. This deductible lowers the premium paid for the policy and in the case of small amounts of damage we just take care of it at our companies expense with either one of our guys fixing the damage or, paying another contractor to take care of it.

I am truly surprised that you don't know this TM.
If I were you I would get another insurance agent this on is clearly reaching deeply into your pocket.:laughing:


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> maybe he should have been a tad bit clearer on what part of the post he was refering to as an assumption. A good gerneral liability policy does not have a deductible...thats my opinion...not an assumption.


Most people would have caught on with the *Bold* in the quote...
But then again you are the exception...:laughing:


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Most people would have caught on with the *Bold* in the quote...
> But then again you are the exception...:laughing:


Either way it was an opinion not an assumption.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Either way it was an opinion not an assumption.


It would suffice in all cases except when a forum member rode the short bus to school...:whistling2:


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

So to be crystal clear here *you* are saying that: " a good business liability insurance policy does not have a deductible" and you will stand by that quote?


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Redwood said:


> I work for a company and am not and owner.
> That has never been disguised by me in an, way, shape or, form.
> Even I with out running a business know that the insurance our shop has also has a deductible which we have to pay on larger claims. This deductible lowers the premium paid for the policy and in the case of small amounts of damage we just take care of it at our companies expense with either one of our guys fixing the damage or, paying another contractor to take care of it.
> 
> ...


I have no deductible and I get a great rate and I get a lawyer provided for me at no cost if I need a lawyer.
Now I would consider that good.....wouldn't you? Oh nevermind you have never shopped rates have you?....you would be assuming.


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

This is going from the ridiculous to the sublime. Any policy with no deductable is banging you on the back side. a 300 grand minimum policy is a waste of payments. Even a million is on the low side but for a one man shop is close to the limit of affordability. But. I'll tell you what. You give us the name of your insurance man and if we can all get a zero deductible policy at an affordable rate we'll all go with him. Ask for a commission


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Why would anyone pay attention to an opinion when facts are available? :whistling2:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> Either way it was an opinion not an assumption.


 
Give your head a shake TM...... an opinion is an assumption unless it is backup by fact and still that fact could be based on an assumption.

In regards to a question it is full of assumptions or it would not be a question.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> This is going from the ridiculous to the sublime. Any policy with no deductable is banging you on the back side. a 300 grand minimum policy is a waste of payments. Even a million is on the low side but for a one man shop is close to the limit of affordability. But. I'll tell you what. You give us the name of your insurance man and if we can all get a zero deductible policy at an affordable rate we'll all go with him. Ask for a commission


Since we are back to making assumptions.."Any policy with no deductable is banging you on the back side." as you put it.......ever stop to think your insurance guy is selling you a policy that has a deductible at the same rate as NOT having a deductible....and pocketing the extra money:laughing: You guys are lostttttttt.

My Commercial general liability insurance does not cost me over 2 gand a year......I have enough coverage. Is that good?


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I have no deductible and I get a great rate and I get a lawyer provided for me at no cost if I need a lawyer.
> Now I would consider that good.....wouldn't you? Oh nevermind you have never shopped rates have you?....you would be assuming.


Rest assured TM the company I work for makes considerably more than "small time jack" and has a "large number" of employees where a deductible offers a "considerable" savings. You would probably think the amount we do in a single week to be a great year...:whistling2:

We don't work for peanuts and we don't trip over peanuts when we go for the green...:thumbup:


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> Since we are back to making assumptions.."Any policy with no deductable is banging you on the back side." as you put it.......ever stop to think your insurance guy is selling you a policy that has a deductible at the same rate as NOT having a deductible....and pocketing the extra money:laughing: You guys are lostttttttt.
> 
> My Commercial general liability insurance does not cost me over 2 gand a year......I have enough coverage. Is that good?


 
Fact.... we have been given all our cost for insurance without and with different deductables.....

A lot cheaper with deductable...... now if you cant afford to pay a deductable then yes you would buy insurance that pays everything.


You have a history of claims TM....is that why you have to get the insurance to cover everything?


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

How do you know you have enough coverage?


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Fact.... we have been given all our cost for insurance without and with different deductables.....
> 
> A lot cheaper with deductable...... now if you cant afford to pay a deductable then yes you would buy insurance that pays everything.
> 
> ...


So what was the price difference and whats the deductible?

No thats just it I have never had a claim. maybe thats why I get my insurance without a deductible for the same price as you do with a deductible. Makes sense doesn't it:whistling2: See ya friend:thumbsup:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

TM - You are not going to win this one and will not change anyone's mind. :no:

Slither away while you still have a tiny bit of credibility. 

With all your posts, you will bypass Ron who has been in the top slot (post count) since PZ's inception. It will be such a shame to have the coveted top spot and not have earned any credibility along the way.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> TM - You are not going to win this one and will not change anyone's mind. :no:
> 
> Slither away while you still have a tiny bit of credibility.
> 
> With all your posts, you will bypass Ron who has been in the top slot (post count) since PZ's inception. It will be such a shame to have the coveted top spot and not have earned any credibility along the way.


I will make a deal with you. I will slither and you can waddle...hows that?


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

You are so funny. See, I am not fat, but you have just admitted to being a SNAKE!


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I will make a deal with you. I will slither and you can waddle...hows that?


Did I hit a nerve TM? Are you coming unraveled? Such an emotional knee jerk reaction. It almost sounds like you were personally attacking me. :laughing:


----------



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

heres something for all you children .....


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> TM - You are not going to win this one and will not change anyone's mind. :no:
> 
> Slither away while you still have a tiny bit of credibility.
> 
> With all your posts, you will bypass Ron who has been in the top slot (post count) since PZ's inception. It will be such a shame to have the coveted top spot and not have earned any credibility along the way.


Ok now we are seeing the personal attacks come out.....she is refering to me being a snake. No big deal to me....But just to show the forum who starts the personal attacks I made a post thats quoted below where I use the motion of an animal....a waddle......like she did with the slithering.



TheMaster said:


> I will make a deal with you. I will slither and you can waddle...hows that?


Here is that post. Is this fair? She wanted me to slither and I wanted her to waddle. Sounds fair to me.



PlumbCrazy said:


> You are so funny. See, I am not fat, but you have just admitted to being a SNAKE!


Here she clearly admits that her reference to slithering was infact an animal reference to the motions of a snake. 



PlumbCrazy said:


> Did I hit a nerve TM? Are you coming unraveled? Such an emotional knee jerk reaction. It almost sounds like you were personally attacking me. :laughing:


And now we have the result......She thinks that ALMOST sounds like I'm personally attacking her.

This is typical with a few of the forum memebers. if you post an opposing opinion and stick to it.....they get frustrated and start the mud slinging:thumbsup:


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> This is typical with a few of the forum memebers. if you post an opposing opinion and stick to it.....they get frustrated and start the mud slinging:thumbsup:


And what is it you are throwing?:laughing:


----------



## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> heres something for all you children .....


I thought all the ice cream melted....thanks Mark, you saved the day.

Just don't let OldSchool near it.....:laughing:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*I will buy some*



Airgap said:


> I thought all the ice cream melted....thanks Mark, you saved the day.
> 
> Just don't let OldSchool near it.....:laughing:


 
I would be happy to buy everybody some if it 
would mellow everyone out here .....

how about my favorite...

some "cannabis ice- cream":thumbup:

we could probably do some brownies too
if you think it would help


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

> Here is that post. Is this fair? She wanted me to slither and I wanted her to waddle. Sounds fair to me.


My dear TM, my first post in this thread was a compliment to you.  As for slithering away, didn't your momma ever tell you that we only tease the ones we like? My comment was based on truth, yours was a fabrication. There is a bit of a difference dear. However, I forgive you.



> Here she clearly admits that her reference to slithering was infact an animal reference to the motions of a snake.


Well I have seen behaviors that are characteristic of a snake. Attacking the unsuspecting, lying in wait etc. I thought I was doing you a favor by encouraging you to bow out gracefully. Seeing that you are sensitive, next time I will use softer words for you dear.



> And now we have the result......She thinks that ALMOST sounds like I'm personally attacking her.


See how I said 'ALMOST.' I know you were not attacking me . . . you like me and you were just teasing me . . . just like I was playfully teasing you. TM dear, you are like the brother I never had. :yes: 



> This is typical with a few of the forum memebers. if you post an opposing opinion and stick to it.....they get frustrated and start the mud slinging:thumbsup:


It takes two TM. :yes:


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

> And now we have the result......She thinks that ALMOST sounds like I'm personally attacking her.





PlumbCrazy said:


> See how I said 'ALMOST.' I know you were not attacking me . . . you like me and you were just teasing me . . . just like I was playfully teasing you. *TM dear, you are like the brother I never had. * :yes:
> 
> It takes two TM. :yes:


Why do I sense Joy in that statement... :laughing:


----------



## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

Boy this one is a doozy!I worked for a company (many moons ago) that had an old my-tanna big sewer machine that was bad to blow fuses.
I blew a fuse once (that caused me trouble) and moved my cord to another outlet and forgot to replace the fuse.You guys know the rest of story.The freezer thawed and ( as luck would have it) I was tight with customer.
We made a list of spoiled food,meats and other stuff, and she let me replace it little by little,I bought some fresh steaks,gave her plenty of fresh fish,(from my freezer)and got her some frozen veggy's from my grandmother.
No fussing, no hard feelings and my boss never knew,I did what I thought was right and everyone was happy.I still do work for the old lady's daughter and she loves it when I take her some fresh crappie filets. As for the ice creme, I don't know, I am no electrician but from my experience the customer is usually right (esp when pissed off) and anything I can handle myself, I will do it. I have only been to court once and I won, a lady wrote me a check on a closed account on purpose and wouldn't make it good ,but the judge did. (And yes, I have a business that can be found on Angies list) has anyone else ever left a fridge or freezer unplugged come on fess up?????


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*just Made some brownies for everyone*


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> .....now tell me I'm fulla shiot:laughing:
> I've asked 2 electricians and they both said the same thing....THERES BIG TIME LIABILITY IN THIS WORK EVEN OF YOU DO EVERYTHING CORRECTLY AND WHEN PEOPLE DIE THEY ARE LOOKING TO PUT SOMEONES HEAD ON A PLATTER....AND THATS THE LAST GUY IN THAT PANEL.


*Okay you are full of it* AKA ARealplumber 

Read for yourself what you wrote at http://www.contractortalk.com/f5/commercial-ice-cream-feezers-84122/


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*Well actuallly*



OldSchool said:


> *Okay you are full of it* AKA ARealplumber
> 
> Read for yourself what you wrote at http://www.contractortalk.com/f5/commercial-ice-cream-feezers-84122/


 
Well , Old School... in truth, 
if you go back on this thread and look a little closer......,
I am the one who first mentioned and started all this fighting...

.:thumbup::thumbup: yes it were little old me :thumbup::thumbup:

I stated that it is wiser to let an electrician fool with the panels and breakers in the very old , rigged up , nasty breaker box...
(that was your opinion of his electrical system in your very first post)....

I said that you were playing with fire 
you are just lucky that the building did not burn down on you.......and to be happy it was just some ice cream lost.....

Personally, *Even though you might know what you are* *doing,* it is just better to let an electrician mess with some old rigged up barn ....than to get on the hoook for a future disaster....

I know how to install a breaker box and change breakers too, but I dont know wether my insurance company will back me up if I burn a home down, I worry that they will weasel out of paying the bill cause I am not a lic electrician,,, so I let a lic Eletrician buddy of mine do all my occasional electrical jobs....... I just sleep better that way...


I dont know what or why you and .....themaster....
are tangling a-holes over......
he just took up the arguement and ran with it..:blink:


I suppose I could be full of sh// too

Brownies anyone????.


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

What MasterMark are you saying you are AKA Arealplumber?

TM was yapin like he knew what he was talking about.....and trying to back that up with BS...

Well BS catches up to you in a hurry..... TM trys to argue even when he is clearly wrong...

Point is he should either fess up that he is wrong or close his yap...

I think neither will happen if you know TM :whistling2:


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

It looks like the sparky's over there don't follow TMOC*...

Damn what a let down for TM...:laughing:

That's funny right there I don't care where you are from....






TMOC* *T*he *M*aster's *O*wn *C*ode is a code covering all commercial and residential codes worldwide. If you are a Serbian Shoemaker you better be doin it to TMOC....:laughing:


----------



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*YOU MIGHT BE RIGHT about arrogance*



OldSchool said:


> What MasterMark are you saying you are AKA Arealplumber?
> 
> TM was yapin like he knew what he was talking about.....and trying to back that up with BS...
> 
> ...


 
No, I am only me.. Markie..... 

and yes you could be right about all the yappin and arrogance going on here..yesterday.. 
perhaps that is what has gotten
everyones tail feathers up in such a ruffle. on this thread..

not the original subject of ice-cream and breaker boxes and burning down a building....

I am not going to go back and see who threw the first insult here....15 pages ago...


I just said I am the one who started it all...
and then the insults began between you guys.....



I just love to sit back watch the fur fly. sometimes..:laughing:.


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> No, I am only me.. Markie.....
> 
> and yes you could be right about all the yappin and arrogance going on here..yesterday..
> perhaps that is what has gotten
> ...


Just about now he has no fur left


----------



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*furless in alabama*



OldSchool said:


> Just about now he has no fur left


 
furless in alabama:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

If I owned that store oldschool would be buying my ice cream. I assure you of that. One way or the other. Some people just dont understand how the law works. They will find out one day and not on my dime. Goodluck to you in the future.


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

I still think you owe the guy for the ice cream. Its your fault, YOU were messing around in the Panel Box,,,or were you not?


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

GREENPLUM said:


> I still think you owe the guy for the ice cream. Its your fault, YOU were messing around in the Panel Box,,,or where you not?


check out this link http://www.contractortalk.com/f5/commercial-ice-cream-feezers-84122/


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

GREENPLUM said:


> I still think you owe the guy for the ice cream. Its your fault, YOU were messing around in the Panel Box,,,or where you not?


Even if it wasn't his fault....he is still on the hook. I guess he thinks people only pay when they are wrong. 

Sure he worked on the electrical system and then the owner says the breaker was left off. Open and shut...pay the man. Looks like another contractor trying to lay blame and in the world of business the customer has the advantage over the contractor.


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> If I owned that store oldschool would be buying my ice cream. I assure you of that. One way or the other. Some people just dont understand how the law works. They will find out one day and not on my dime. Goodluck to you in the future.


Apparently you did own the store http://www.contractortalk.com/f5/commercial-ice-cream-feezers-84122/

Please refer to your own law book TM


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

GREENPLUM said:


> I still think you owe the guy for the ice cream. Its your fault, YOU were messing around in the Panel Box,,,or where you not?


Oh Boy! :laughing:

Have you been reading this book?
http://www.plumbingzone.com/f13/redwood-publishing-proudly-announces-new-book-10110/

Good to see someone has TM's back covered...:laughing:

He sure needs it at this point...


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

It would be no different if you went to a house and replaced the ballcock and the flapper in a toilet.....then 3 days later the tank to bowl bolts fall out and the house floods......YOUR RESPONSIBLE FOR IT.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

They cant stay on topic. To busy tryng to muddy the waters.


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

those links prove nothing, the book is a joke,

Old School, I really believe if you went to court over this YOU would be payin for the lost ice cream.

Try takin a step back and lookin at the whole pic,,, you worked in the panel box,,,,then the freezer had no power,,, the ice cream melted,,,,Guilty


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Let's try a few more but with plumbing.


You shut the water off to do a pipe repair and when you turn it back on.......

1. the water heater starts to leak.

2. a copper pipe develops a pin hole leak

3. a faucet starts to drip

4. a toilet fill valve runs continuously

Who is responsible for the additional costs?


Let's try another. 


You do a main line cable out. You check the main yard clean out and it's dry but the house is holding water. You cable from the roof and everything drains down. You run water at all fixtures to verify that all lines are flowing. The drain field over loads. Who is responsible for the additional costs?​​​​​​
​


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

One thing is for sure,,,, your company will suffer from the bad mouthing your gonna get from this guy,,


word of mouth travels fast


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

GREENPLUM said:


> those links prove nothing, the book is a joke,
> 
> Old School, I really believe if you went to court over this YOU would be payin for the lost ice cream.
> 
> Try takin a step back and lookin at the whole pic,,, you worked in the panel box,,,,then the freezer had no power,,, the ice cream melted,,,,Guilty


Well Green I respect your opinion.... but like I originally wrote in the post.....We want to check the real problem before I accept any responsiblity....

This is not like water where you see it all over the floor.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> Let's try a few more but with plumbing.​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd like to continue with the current topic. The one where an electrician did some wiring work and then 3 days later the ice cream is melted and the owner is claiming you left the breaker off.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't know how the laws are in bama, but not here in Florida. I've had that exact thing happen countless times when I'm dealing with some cheap customer. When they call back wanting me to come out for free they get told where to go. Every one threatens to sue, call the BBB, file a complaint against my lic. Guess what, I'm still here.



TheMaster said:


> It would be no different if you went to a house and replaced the ballcock and the flapper in a toilet.....then 3 days later the tank to bowl bolts fall out and the house floods......*YOUR RESPONSIBLE FOR IT*.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Then why are you now talking about tank to bowl leaks? ...........



TheMaster said:


> I'd like to continue with the current topic. The one where an electrician did some wiring work and then 3 days later the ice cream is melted and the owner is claiming you left the breaker off.


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Mastermark - The thread is not ending because it takes two to argue and one person is insisting on driving their point home. If that person would just agree to disagree and let it go, this trainwreck would be over.


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> I'd like to continue with the current topic. The one where an electrician did some wiring work and then 3 days later the ice cream is melted and the owner is claiming you left the breaker off.


Why would you want to have this topic on two different forums .....I think you already got a good answer at http://www.contractortalk.com/f5/commercial-ice-cream-feezers-84122/ :laughing:


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Well Green I respect your opinion.... but like I originally wrote in the post.....We want to check the real problem before I accept any responsiblity....
> 
> This is not like water where you see it all over the floor.


The owner doesn't hafta let you do anything on that property and why would he.......I would call a different electrician and let him throw you under the bus. Why would I agree to pay you to come check....my bet is that even of you didn't find a problem you would make one up.......not pay for the ice cream and then charge me for coming back.


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> Well Green I respect your opinion.... but like I originally wrote in the post.....We want to check the real problem before I accept any responsiblity....
> 
> This is not like water where you see it all over the floor.


 
If I was the owner you would not be allowed back into the store. I would hire a different electricial contractor to inspect your work and find out why the ice cream melted.

If he is takin these steps,,get rdy for court, or pay him the money that you may or may not owe him


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

How about if a customer had a defective door installation and you walked through the door and when you did the window fell out and smashed on the ground. You opened the door. Who is responsible, the person who installed it wrong, or the person who "touched the house of cards"?




GREENPLUM said:


> those links prove nothing, the book is a joke,
> 
> Old School, I really believe if you went to court over this YOU would be payin for the lost ice cream.
> 
> Try takin a step back and lookin at the whole pic,,, you worked in the panel box,,,,then the freezer had no power,,, the ice cream melted,,,,Guilty


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I'd like to continue with the current topic. The one where an electrician did some wiring work and then 3 days later the ice cream is melted and the owner is claiming you left the breaker off.


Master Mark - Please see the quote above. Is there a point to continuing? Has anymore relevant information been brought forth? 

IMO Oldschool offered to go back and check out the situation. He does not seem to be skirting the issue. If Oldschool is responsible, I am sure he would pony up the money.

To blatantly blame OldSchool and insinuate he does not know his job is disrespectful when no one knows his level of expertise. That is why there is so much flaming. It was a personal attack . . . Oldschool was looking for opinions and advice . . . he did not ask to be attacked relentlessly.


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> The owner doesn't hafta let you do anything on that property and why would he.......I would call a different electrician and let him throw you under the bus. Why would I agree to pay you to come check....my bet is that even of you didn't find a problem you would make one up.......not pay for the ice cream and then charge me for coming back.


Then our relationship would be over on a customer contractor point of view.. Simple he would have to pay some one to go out..

As for making something up I am not TheMaster...that would be your job.


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Protech said:


> How about if a customer had a defective door installation and you walked through the door and when you did the window fell out and smashed on the ground. You opened the door. Who is responsible, the person who installed it wrong, or the person who "touched the house of cards"?


 
this is about melted ice cream, no judge is going to listen to that kinda bs PT


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> It would be no different if you went to a house and replaced the ballcock and the flapper in a toilet.....then 3 days later the tank to bowl bolts fall out and the house floods......YOUR RESPONSIBLE FOR IT.


Yea but isn't the logic you are applying closer to a plumber driving by a house that gets a plumbing leak afterwards...:laughing:

You got your answer from Sparky on the other forum and looks like its what a pilot would call a flame out... 

*Pull The Handle! Eject! Eject!* :laughing:

Although you did get a handy hack maintenance guy to agree with you...:blink:



ARealplumber AKA The Master said:


> I have a convenience store and all my coolers/freezers are on 15 amp breakers and 14 ga wire. Would you come into my store and add a breaker to my panel box for an HVAC unit and ignore all the 15 amp breakers??? Not to mention some of the coolers/freezers are wired into in the same circuit.......Will it pass inspection?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





ARealplumber AKA The Master said:


> The point of this thread is to address liability or no liability from abusiness standpoint.
> 
> If a customer called your electrical company to install a breaker in the main panel box and wire up an HVAC unit and after the course of that work the customers ice cream melted. Whos responsible for the ice cream. The elctrician says he he didn't turn the breaker off....the owner sys he did.......the electrician believes the circuit was overloaded and it tripped the breaker after he left....but he cant prove that because he was going to charge the owner to come back and check to see if that circuit is overloaded......the owner hung up on him. Is the electrician on the hook for the 500.00 worth of melted ice cream if they went to court?
> There's a big difference between a breaker that tripped and a breaker that was turned off. And the difference is easy to identify.
> ...


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Should be case closed! 

You guys are plumbers with some electrical experience. 

Sparky who is an expert cleared it up. Very clear IMO who was spouting off incorrect info.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Heres the bottom line.

You did electrical work at the address. YES 
The owner suffered a loss. YES
Can you prove the breaker was on when you left. NO
Will the owner say the breaker was left off. YES
Can you prove the breakers are overloaded. NO
Can the owner prove you left the breaker off. NO he doesn't need to. 

The judge would weigh the evidence. The judge would ask himself THIS QUESTION................Do I believe the ice cream would have melted if that electrician would not have worked at the address in question. The answer IMO would be NO and you would have a judgement against you. 

If you dont like my opinion.......so what:laughing:


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Please let that be the final argument before judgment. Even in a court of law, the lawyers have to wrap it up and let it go.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> Heres the bottom line.
> 
> You did electrical work at the address. YES
> The owner suffered a loss. YES
> ...


Its not that we dont like your opinion ...its that everything you said so far is flawed and full BS and you are to stubborn to admit when you are wrong.

To me your opinion is worth peanuts TM or should I say AKA Arealplumber


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> How about if a customer had a defective door installation and you walked through the door and when you did the window fell out and smashed on the ground. You opened the door. Who is responsible, the person who installed it wrong, or the person who "touched the house of cards"?


Depends on if they sue you or not. Heres how it could play out. Guy calls you up......you go out. Half way through the job you come out the screen door and it falls down. The owner comes out and proceeds to cuss you like a dog....and runs you off his property. 3 weeks later you get served to go to court about the door.

In court the owner says you got you clothing caught on the handle of the door and ripped it out the frame. His licensed contractor that installed a new door is there in court with him........and he says the door was installed proper.


PAY UP SUCKER:laughing:


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I like milk shakes myself.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Its not that we dont like your opinion ...its that everything you said so far is flawed and full BS and you are to stubborn to admit when you are wrong.
> 
> To me your opinion is worth peanuts TM or should I say AKA Arealplumber


 
Are you being disrespectful?


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Are you being disrespectful?


Here's the deal. Most everyone is tolerant of you up to a point. But you keep going and going and going and going until even the most patient of us snap back. Only a person with a lobotomy could ignore you indefinitely.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

I just mailed the guy a $500.00 check.... fuggeddaboutit...Next...


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> Are you being disrespectful?


If you had an opinion that was worth something then there might be respect.

You yap off with false information and try to keep pushing your BS.

So yes your opinion is worthless....


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Perception and reality are often different in the eyes of the customer. Right or wrong, If you don't "make it right" the customer will make a career of telling everyone he knows that you are incompetent and ripped him off, even if you did win the lawsuit. Some things, you just have to swallow bitterly and smile about.

If you went to court with this you might win, you might not, either way you loose.


----------



## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Ya'll need a beer summit....PPV style....:yes:


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Here's the deal. Most everyone is tolerant of you up to a point. But you keep going and going and going and going until even the most patient of us snap back. Only a person with a lobotomy could ignore you indefinitely.


Do you make the rules or enforce them? Whos forum is this? If you have a problem...report me like you have in the past....or message matt and have him report me for you. 

I'm operating within the rules and no personal attacks have ben made on my part........you cannot say the same can ya? Your day is coming soon.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> If you had an opinion that was worth something then there might be respect.
> 
> You yap off with false information and try to keep pushing your BS.
> 
> So yes your opinion is worthless....


 
Your day is coming soon also. You must respect the forum members.


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Perception and reality are often different in the eyes of the customer. Right or wrong, If you don't "make it right" the customer will make a career of telling everyone he knows that you are incompetent and ripped him off, even if you did win the lawsuit. Some things, you just have to swallow bitterly and smile about.
> 
> If you went to court with this you might win, you might not, either way you loose.


 
and he will have the burden of proving his Innocent's, that gonna be hard with the information you have provided us with. 

but yes either way he is gonna loose,,,,money,work,good rep,,ect

but hey, you didnt melt that ice cream , they power that was turned off by your company had nothing to do with the melted ice cream


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> Your day is coming soon also. You must respect the forum members.


Then start taking your own advice


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I love Sunday morning comics, who needs a newspaper when you can come to PZ and get your laughs right here. :laughing:


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Perception and reality are often different in the eyes of the customer. Right or wrong, If you don't "make it right" the customer will make a career of telling everyone he knows that you are incompetent and ripped him off, even if you did win the lawsuit. Some things, you just have to swallow bitterly and smile about.
> 
> If you went to court with this you might win, you might not, either way you loose.


NH - I agree with what you say, however, don't you think OldSchool has the right to inspect his own work?

Why wouldn't the store owner accept the terms - I'll pay if it's something we did, if it's your electrical problem you will pay for my trip out?

In business we see all kinds of crazy things . . . the melted ice cream could have been a freak, unrelated incident.

FWIW - We would have gone out on our own dime because we would want to know the cause, regardless of the owners willingness to pay for it. It's a sign of goodwill and shows that you stand behind your work. If it was questionable, more than likely we would have offered to pay half the wholesale price of the icecream and suggested they get an electrician to look over all the electric.


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

PlumbCrazy said:


> NH - I agree with what you say, however, don't you think OldSchool has the right to inspect his own work?
> 
> Why wouldn't the store owner accept the terms - I'll pay if it's something we did, if it's your electrical problem you will pay for my trip out?
> 
> ...


Exactly....

If the location was close to home no problem we would just go out for free....but it is 2 hours away from us.

We go out and check the amp draw on that breaker if it is only for then cooler then we pay. If the breaker does more than the cooler he pays .... simple

But he flips out and hangs up....Oh well ....on to the next customer


----------



## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

There's only one way we are going to find out who's right (liable) in this....

Unless this goes before a judge it is all just speculation...

My gut tells me he would side with the store owner, but what do I know...

What you need to ask yourself is, is 500.00 worth it...


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> NH - I agree with what you say, however, don't you think OldSchool has the right to inspect his own work?
> 
> Why wouldn't the store owner accept the terms - I'll pay if it's something we did, if it's your electrical problem you will pay for my trip out?
> 
> ...


 

Sure, it should have been Inspected BEFORE he left the job! 

If this had been done the ice cream would still be frozen and the owner would not be out $500 + oldschools invoice

I would not let them near anything else of mine if I owned the place, he alrdy thinks that he got screwed, so why would you let them come back?


I would have tried to go back and inspect the work, if I could find no evidence that would help me I would cut the guy a check and try to smooth things over


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Exactly....
> 
> If the location was close to home no problem we would just go out for free....but it is 2 hours away from us.
> 
> ...


Your forgetting he has no obligation to you....but you do to the owner. he can call another electrician out......if he says its good......the Judge will not consider your speculation about an overloaded circuit.


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Do you make the rules or enforce them? Whos forum is this? If you have a problem...report me like you have in the past....or message matt and have him report me for you.
> 
> I'm operating within the rules and no personal attacks have ben made on my part........you cannot say the same can ya? Your day is coming soon.


The above post is a perfect example of why so many do not like your posting style.

I don't have a problem with you. 

You keep insisting that I have reported you in the past- *I DO NOT REPORT YOU!* on a regular basis like you seem to think. Did you ever stop to think that the mods read the posts and make determinations on their own? Why would I single out Matt to report to? If I wanted to make an official report, it would go to ALL MODS. 

I would LOVE for the official record to be made public as to who reports who. That would shut you up.

Yeah my day is coming, just like you said to Oldschool. TM, I find that threatening and *hereby publicly insist that you stop threatening me.*

*Whether you meant it as a threat or not is irrelevant - I have perceived that comment as a threat. Therefore, you must stop.*


----------



## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Exactly....
> 
> *If the location was close to home no problem we would just go out for free....but it is 2 hours away from us.*
> 
> ...


thats all part of doing business with a distance. we do jobs 100's of miles from the shop and the boss still sends us back if there is an issue.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> The above post is a perfect example of why so many do not like your posting style.
> 
> I don't have a problem with you.
> 
> ...


Your day is coming and so is oldschools. Nathan and I have a understanding. See ya later.:thumbsup: Its no threat its a promise. I will be reporting you and oldschool but I'm waiting until tomorrow. I wont bother nathan on a Sunday over it.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I dont know why you guys think that this would be a federal case....

but you are acting that way.

It $ 500.00 bucks....that is not a lot of money....I have a strict policy and always have.

We dont roll over from fear or intimidation.....

First - never admit liability
Second - always try to get the facts, pics, documents 
Third - investigate

Some Times something else has happened....

Not only that it was several days later he called about the problem.

He should have noticed that the first thing the next morning


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Oldschool - two hours away, we would have done the same thing.

Greenplum - Oldschool was satisfied when he left the job. You know freak things happen.

The other day we worked on a water line in a hotel and made a repair. Week later, guest complains ever since we shut the water down, their K.S. has not been draining properly. Are they related? Only in that both issues are plumbing. It was coincidental. Same thing could be going on with the icecream. $500. is not a fortune, but why give away $500. just for goodwill.

Two hours away . . . doubt this will have much backlash for Oldschool.


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> NH - I agree with what you say, however, don't you think OldSchool has the right to inspect his own work?
> 
> Why wouldn't the store owner accept the terms - I'll pay if it's something we did, if it's your electrical problem you will pay for my trip out?
> 
> ...


 
I don't know, a lot depends on your relationship with the customer and whether he's a stand up guy or not. Some are are and some are not. Either way though these are the kind of things that I don't like to let take up too much of my time. If he does let me back in the basement, what am I going to do down there? Are we going to dance around while I try to convince him that I didn't do it? Not worth my time. Every minute I spend dicking around is more money I'm loosing.


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> Your day is coming and so is oldschools. Nathan and I have a understanding. See ya later.:thumbsup: Its no threat its a promise. I will be reporting you and oldschool but I'm waiting until tomorrow. I wont bother nathan on a Sunday over it.


 
Big deal TM get off my thread ...I made your own..... you are full of nonsense and more over a trouble maker from the get go.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Your day is coming soon also. You must respect the forum members.












Looks like your day is here today my disrespectful friend...


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Oldschool - two hours away, we would have done the same thing.
> 
> Greenplum - Oldschool was satisfied when he left the job. You know freak things happen.
> 
> ...


What does the distance away from the job have to do with anything? What the farther it is the less liability you think you have?:laughing: But if it was 10 minutes away you would hop right over? man o man


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

See, what happens when you throw rocks. sooner or later someone gets it in the eyeball :thumbsup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Looks like your day is here today my disrespectful friend...


I'm sure you'll get a talking to also.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Your day is coming and so is oldschools. * Nathan and I have a understanding.[/SIZE]* See ya later.:thumbsup: *Its no threat its a promise.* I will be reporting you and oldschool but I'm waiting until tomorrow. I wont bother nathan on a Sunday over it.


Oh, I see. You are now speaking for Nathan. Again, I insist that you stop making ominous, threatening statements.

As for reporting, we have three mods and none of them has said any post has crossed a line. So if any of us are blurring the lines, apparently the mods don't see it that way. If you look back, two of the mods have posted in the threads.


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> What does the distance away from the job have to do with anything? What the farther it is the less liability you think you have?:laughing: But if it was 10 minutes away you would hop right over? man o man


Time is money ...now get off my thread you have your own :laughing:


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Big deal TM get off my thread ...I made your own..... you are full of nonsense and more over a trouble maker from the get go.


This is not your thread. This is an open forum. I'm posting on it and I'm sorry you feel I cant but you dont make the rules.:thumbsup:

You must edit faster. See I caught your insulting remark. You willl be dealt with.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Yeah my day is coming, just like you said to Oldschool. TM, I find that threatening and *hereby publicly insist that you stop threatening me.*
> 
> *Whether you meant it as a threat or not is irrelevant - I have perceived that comment as a threat. Therefore, you must stop.*


Oh like the one he dropped last night in chat...:whistling2:


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> This is not your thread. This is an open forum. I'm posting on it and I'm sorry you feel I cant but you dont make the rules.:thumbsup:
> 
> You must edit faster. See I caught your insulting remark. You willl be dealt with.


Remember this one TM



TheMaster said:


> Make a post with substance or dont post on my thread. Thank you.


well take your advice


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Oh, I see. You are now speaking for Nathan. Again, I insist that you stop making ominous, threatening statements.
> 
> As for reporting, we have three mods and none of them has said any post has crossed a line. So if any of us are blurring the lines, apparently the mods don't see it that way. If you look back, two of the mods have posted in the threads.


 
Maybe the mods will be dealt with also. Your welcome to have your opinion. Insist all you want.....its going to be hard for you to cover all your attacks up on me this time like you have done with limited success in the past. You got caught lastime by sending me that instant message or I probably would have been kicked off then. Remember that? or am I not allowed to bring that up?


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I'm sure you'll get a talking to also.


You vastly overestimate your importance...:whistling2:


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> Maybe the mods will be dealt with also. Your welcome to have your opinion. Insist all you want.....its going to be hard for you to cover all your attacks up on me this time like you have done with limited success in the past. You got caught lastime by sending me that instant message or I probably would have been kicked off then. Remember that? or am I not allowed to bring that up?


 
Apparently this would not be the first forum you were ever kicked out of TM

*There is a new forum in town....A ban is not so bad and there are ways around it if you are determined....ask me how I know








I think I'm done over at the other one i was booted from.....too many drain cleaners and other's posing as plumbers. *
_*Last edited by ARealplumber; 01-06-2010 at 12:04 AM*. _


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Bring this thread back on topic, it is getting out of control.

Thanks.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> So what would you guys do?
> 
> There is a marina about 2 hours south of here that wanted us to put in a ductless split air condtioner.
> 
> ...


Oh this topic...:laughing:

TM you spoke your piece now sit down...


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Oh this topic...:laughing:
> 
> TM you spoke you piece now sit down...


No your making another personal reference to me.....off topic. Its not me that screws up threads.....its the people like you that go flippin nuts when I disagree with valid points. They then get mad about it and it ends up with personal attacks like your doing here. Ron just told you to get on topic.....I'm not the topic redwood.

BTW.....It's peace...not piece in this context.


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> No your making another personal reference to me.....off topic. Its not me that screws up threads.....its the people like you that go flippin nuts when I disagree with valid points. They then get mad about it and it ends up with personal attacks like your doing here. Ron just told you to get on topic.....I'm not the topic redwood.
> 
> BTW.....It's peace...not piece in this context.


TM I was asking everyone to bring it back on topic, it was not directed towards any one member.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> No your making another personal reference to me.....off topic. Its not me that screws up threads.....its the people like you that go flippin nuts when I disagree with valid points. They then get mad about it and it ends up with personal attacks like your doing here. Ron just told you to get on topic.....I'm not the topic redwood.
> 
> *BTW.....It's peace...not piece in this context*.


And yet another off topic post from TM...:laughing:

Piece:
Definition #9 at the link below...
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/piece


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Ok this what were going to do, were going to take a break from this thread, I'm not closing this all together, but only for a couple of hours, then I'll reopen it, now at that time all new post to this thread will be on topic, if I see it back to mud slinging I'll close it down perm.

Thread to reopen at 11:35 PST


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I hope TM doesn't get us fired Ron.:001_unsure:

I need the supplimental income.:laughing:


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

This thread is now open.

Subject *Ice Cream Incident*

If you don't have anything relevant to add to this topic don't post it. keep it on topic. :thumbsup:

Thanks You.


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I like ice cream. I hate that there was an incident. I'm sad for the loss.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

i had an ice cream incident after i became lactose intolerant. whew not a pretty sight.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Matt said:


> I hope TM doesn't get us fired Ron.:001_unsure:
> 
> I need the supplimental income.:laughing:


I hope you guys don't get fired either...
That supplemental income would be a kings ransom in some places to some people...:laughing:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Redwood said:


> I hope you guys don't get fired either...
> That supplemental income would be a kings ransom in some places to some people...:laughing:


I believe what you're saying is, it would buy a lot of ice cream.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

house plumber said:


> i had an ice cream incident after i became lactose intolerant. whew not a pretty sight.


I just has an ice cream bar...
I'm glad it wasn't melted...
But if it was I would have made a milkshake.


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

And then there could be an incident.

Gotta stay on topic


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I hope there was no Rocky Road ice cream that was lost in that incident,  I love rocky road. :thumbsup:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Matt said:


> I believe what you're saying is, it would buy a lot of ice cream.


Yes it sure would... :laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Ron said:


> I hope there was no Rocky Road ice that was lost in that incident,  I love rocky road. :thumbsup:


The ice cream bar I had was a Snickers Bar...
Mmmmm Peanuts!
I love peanuts in Snickers Ice Cream Bars...
I'm so glad there are Peanut Farmers...
What would a Snickers Ice Cream Bar be without Peanuts?:whistling2:


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm at my oldest son's football game.

Playin DE, 5 tackles in the first half.

I may have to buy ice cream tonight.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I scream, You scream, We all scream for ice cream.

I feel fat now. :laughing:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Ron said:


> I scream, You scream, We all scream for ice cream.
> 
> *I feel fat now*. :laughing:


That was very hurtful Ron. You brought up a bad memory for me. I had a boyfriend once who called me fat behind my back. 

Glad I bought ice cream at the store today though. Bought Drumstick cones for my husband and Drumstick cones without the nuts for the kids to avoid any ice cream incidents. Peanut farmers may not appreciate me making a different choice though.

I bought cherry Italian ice for myself. :yes:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Something dripped on my shirt. I thought it was ice cream but itsnot


----------



## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)




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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> That was very hurtful Ron. You brought up a bad memory for me. I had a boyfriend once who called me fat behind my back.
> 
> Glad I bought ice cream at the store today though. Bought Drumstick cones for my husband and Drumstick cones without the nuts for the kids to avoid any ice cream incidents. Peanut farmers may not appreciate me making a different choice though.
> 
> I bought cherry Italian ice for myself. :yes:


Maybe he meant "phat" and was complimenting you:thumbsup:


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I will be reporting you and oldschool but I'm waiting until tomorrow. I wont bother nathan on a Sunday over it.


You have bothered him 13 times so far today.:blink: Come on dude. 

I click new posts and it's all reported posts. :laughing:

Please make it stop.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

Hmmm, I get busy and can't check in as often as I'd like and I come back to ... *this???*
WoW! I have friends on both sides of this argument (what has turned into an argument) and I can't believe that you ppl have so much time on your hands that you can really turn this into an issue!

TM: c'mon, man! You've said your piece. You're as far away removed from this incident as I am. Let it go!
OS: geez. I hope this has worked out in your favour but you've got to let it go too, chum. We all have the t-shirt of wanton and bogus claims and they'll always be around. Someone always wants to make someone else pay for their own losses (could be what happened/is happening to you) and that'll never stop.

How could some obscure marina owner in _ButteF*k, Ontario_ turn colleague against colleague so easily?
Sure, some here are hotheads and prefer to have the favourable opinion no matter the cost (_Note: anyone who takes offence to this observation should just stfu since responding will only label you as a "*hothead*")_ but that should provide no more than lively banter and *NOT* the unintelligent barkings of dogs at a loud noise!

I'm very dissapointed to read what I have read here from ppl that I respect as colleagues and friends.


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## bartnc37 (Feb 24, 2009)

This is better than the reruns of the springer show. Seriously, who's the baby's daddy? Who's doing what with who's sister? And why the heck is there melted ice cream everywhere?:whistling2:

TM been busting balls all over this site for quite awhile, someone finally bites back and ya run to the admin,let it go. You seem pretty knowledgeable about alot of areas so let your knowledge and abilities stand on their own. 
You don't see plumber bill running around here busting chops and I don't believe I'm alone in believing he knows where the bear sh#@s in the buckwheat.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

So here's what I'm thinking: guy hires a company to do work. After they leave he's thinking, "Hey, about half the ice cream in that cooler isn't selling. What if I flip a breaker, let it all melt, and then tell the company they messed it up? After all, they were working in that panel."

Whether or not it's true, it's something that I haven't seen mentioned.

And OldSchool, if you went back to check the breakers, I'm thinking that you'd have to exactly replicate the situation, shutting off the main breaker for the same period of time so that whatever is hooked to that circuit would have to all start cold at once. And then you'd have to hope that whatever unusual circumstance that happened would happen again.

Sometimes, breakers eventually trip from a load but not necessarily every time. 

It could be just a case of "Who knows?" But from what I've seen here, it seems as if it would be very difficult to actually prove anything. How about the store's own insurance company? Will they replace ice cream if a freezer fails? I don't know of any store or food service place where this doesn't happen occasionally.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Herk said:


> So here's what I'm thinking: guy hires a company to do work. After they leave he's thinking, "Hey, about half the ice cream in that cooler isn't selling. What if I flip a breaker, let it all melt, and then tell the company they messed it up? After all, they were working in that panel."
> 
> Whether or not it's true, it's something that I haven't seen mentioned.
> 
> ...


 
Let me point you to post # 6 the last sentence. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/ice-cream-incident-10057/#post134215


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

I'd be very suspicious, especially if it's a seasonal business.

It really comes down to a business decision.

If I feel I'm not at fault but this may affect my business more than the cost of replacement, I would pay.

If I feel I'm not at fault and don't think it's going to affect my business, I'm not paying.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

pauliplumber said:


> I'd be very suspicious, especially if it's a seasonal business.
> 
> It really comes down to a business decision.
> 
> ...


That never even entered my mind until you said it..

But yes this is a seasonal business......

I was just thinking he might have to much plugged in on that one circuit.

The request I made to check that circuit should not of had a bad response if all was good on his side. He would have nothing to lose if he was right and would have got his ice cream paid for if I was wrong.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I called a lawyer that I did a consult with a couple weeks ago about lightning striking a drain pipe........He said you dont hafta pay but 99% of those type cases are ruled in favor of the home or business owner......and that 500.00 wouldn't be worth your companies name being in the newspaper with a judgement against it. In his opinion he would not pay until the day he actually had to walk into court but before a judgement is recorded against your business.

Now sleep on that and let me know what you think tomorrow.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

This is the way the law works up here.....seeing it is such a small amount ....it would have to go to small claims court...I dont know if they even have that where you are from.... Filing fee is $ 100.00

Nothing goes straight to court here ....it is called pretrial.... this is were you discuss the situation before an adjudicator...this is not a judge....he weighs the fact and comes to a conclusion and you either make an agreement or the next step is court...

So the court issue is not as great an issue as you make it sound.....

Things are more than likely different were you come from and for all I know they may hang you down there for the simpliest thing. This is not the case up here and never will be.

So the court issue you keep raising is neither here nor there.... likelyhood of this happing would be the same as getting struck by lightning or winning the lottery.

As for your electrical theory or somebodyelse theory ..... the proper answer is 15 amp breaker on 14/2 wire for fridge or plug in cooler. Please get proper advice before you state something as fact and spread confusion on the thread saying you know this from fact when it was false information.

It doesn't matter what you may assume as fact because it is still an assumption.

We all know what assumptions cause..... so refer to google search if you are trying to back things up or code reference. There is already enough bad information out there with out adding to the pile of endless crap.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

It seems to me the only real assumptions being made is that the owner of the ice cream has an overloaded circuit. Thats pure speculation and it cant be proved. 

Now the owner doesn't need to prove that you left the breaker off.....just prove that he suffered a loss by the ice cream melting after you worked on the electrical panel at his store and make the claim that the breaker was off. Theres is no way you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt you turned the breakers back on unless you noted it on your invoice.

Otherwise it looks like you just failed to turn the breakers back on and you admit you did work in the panel.

This is why when you work in run down shacks there is a certain amount of liability added to the job......its like traps that have been set and somtimes you fall into one.......this is a prime example if that.

Add> What would goin back to the store to check anything prove? Even if the circuit was overloaed it might not be when you get back to check. Sombody could have plugged somthing into that circuit.....tripped the breaker and then unpugged their equpiment and left. So it comes down to your word against his.........customers win 99% of the time.


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

You know Tm It would be easier to just call the guy. Instead of wasting up all this space. Just the way i see it


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I really do not care who is at fault. A logical conclusion would have been to explain the possible causes then split the 500 dollars between the both of you and this would be complete and no issues. a thing of the past. He still receives something and is happy your happy because you do not have to eat the whoe 500 bucks.Perhaps the situation could have been salvaged and you could do another job and recoup the loss. Now no one won and everybody lost.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

:laughing:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

easttexasplumb said:


> :laughing:


You just had to dredge that up, eh?:laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> You just had to dredge that up, eh?:laughing:


What..... I though the whole thread was funny

A lot of what Ifs from TM

Sent from my portable office....yes I am at work


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

Wow, what a thread. Whatever happened to TM anyway?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

love2surf927 said:


> Wow, what a thread. Whatever happened to TM anyway?


He moved on to the DIY forum and is giving legal advice

Sent from my portable office....yes I am at work


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

i had something happen to me that reminded me of this thread i went installed two faucet on at a sink and one on a island customer supplied moens with 3/8 hoses. well i leave next day he calls and says he has water coming out from island so i get over there and thers aleak under slab he starts bioching that its my fault wasnt like that before i aint leaving till its fixed so first prove not my fault cut a hole in plywood under sink and said look under slab not on pipes for stop well he still wasnt happy called boss he says find manifold cap it off i go to my truck and when i get back both copper lines kinked he says look you bent them i said well i didnt do that but if i did then the damage was above ground not under slab so i start cutting holes in wall s looking for manifolds finaly find it in garage guess what theres water there to after i asked them if water was any where else and they said no there excuse said i thought my cat did it well find the lines cap them off and boss said not to charge on my contract stated it was a courtisy call no chage we are not liable for damages to walls tile counters counter tops repaire or any damage to home due to leak was not our fault we are not charging due to a courtisy call and if he decides to repair he willhave to pay for any future work he signed next day we get a call from his lawyer blah blah blah boss pulles out our contract and faxes it to lawyer never heard from them again lol


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## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

what a fuss I miss those daz (grin)


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## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

retired rooter said:


> Boy this one is a doozy!I worked for a company (many moons ago) that had an old my-tanna big sewer machine that was bad to blow fuses.
> I blew a fuse once (that caused me trouble) and moved my cord to another outlet and forgot to replace the fuse.You guys know the rest of story.The freezer thawed and ( as luck would have it) I was tight with customer.
> We made a list of spoiled food,meats and other stuff, and she let me replace it little by little,I bought some fresh steaks,gave her plenty of fresh fish,(from my freezer)and got her some frozen veggy's from my grandmother.
> No fussing, no hard feelings and my boss never knew,I did what I thought was right and everyone was happy.I still do work for the old lady's daughter and she loves it when I take her some fresh crappie filets. As for the ice creme, I don't know, I am no electrician but from my experience the customer is usually right (esp when pissed off) and anything I can handle myself, I will do it. I have only been to court once and I won, a lady wrote me a check on a closed account on purpose and wouldn't make it good ,but the judge did. (And yes, I have a business that can be found on Angies list) has anyone else ever left a fridge or freezer unplugged come on fess up?????


 thinking back ,that was only thanks I ever got from tm and I wasn't expecting it (grin)


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## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

Herk said:


> So here's what I'm thinking: guy hires a company to do work. After they leave he's thinking, "Hey, about half the ice cream in that cooler isn't selling. What if I flip a breaker, let it all melt, and then tell the company they messed it up? After all, they were working in that panel."
> 
> Whether or not it's true, it's something that I haven't seen mentioned.
> 
> ...


 Were you working for Mr Patel???? this sounds just like one of his stunts,BTW Mr Patel is known from ala to alaska I know this is a very old thread I had forgotten it ,guess I was bored this afternoon to read it again(it was ,after all entertaining) havent seen a difference of opinion like this in a long time!!!


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

This thread is a classic......

Sent from my portable office....yes I am at work


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> This thread is a classic......
> 
> Sent from my portable office....yes I am at work


Now if we can just get the cat to cover it back over and let it complete it's decomposition... :laughing:

26 pages of this shiot.... sheesh...


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Saw this and immediately went looking for this thread...

OldSchool just couldn't replace the condensor fast enough!! :laughing:

(That's correct, I've bumped this thread) :jester:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

The gift that keeps on giving.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

I was REALLY bored and am about halfway through reading this novel again... :laughing:


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

U666A said:


> I was REALLY bored and am about halfway through reading this novel again... :laughing:


I just got done reading all 18 pages :laughing:

Sent from my iPhone 10.5


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> I just got done reading all 18 pages :laughing:
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 10.5


Just now? You thanked posts on the first page!


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Hey, I tried to read the "just ask the master" thread, what gives?!?

I betcha that one's full of gold! :laughing:


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

U666A said:


> Just now? You thanked posts on the first page!


I've read it before, but I figured I needed some good advice from TM so I read it again :laughing: 

I really wish I could find that "just ask the master" thread :laughing:

Sent from my iPhone 10.5


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Update .....

Never heard anything about this guys ice cream and it's past our statue of limitations ...

So I guess I don't eat it ...


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> Update .....
> 
> Never heard anything about this guys ice cream and it's past our statue of limitations ...
> 
> So I guess I don't eat it ...


 That's good news, now what about the other frivlous lawsuit regarding you installed the customer's fixtures, etc


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> That's good news, now what about the other frivlous lawsuit regarding you installed the customer's fixtures, etc


That ..

I just got in the intent to defend for the other parties ... Looks like everybody is fighting it ...it seems that this will go on for some time ... Hopefully the doctor doesn't go bankrupt


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## sjaquay (Jan 13, 2013)

rule number 1....customers all lie.... i put in a tankless on a well system. only turned off ball valves, did the work, turned valves back on. 3 days later client calls me and says his well pump wont shut off, i told him id come look at it but i dont know what it will cost because i dont know whats wrong with it, he says hes not paying me anything, that i WILL fix it for free because since i was there it must be my fault. some customers think that just because you did work in their home, anything that breaks anytime soon is obviously your fault, sometimes you just have to take a stand,especially when you know you are in the right. my all time fav one was i went to a home for a clogged kitchen sink drain, cabled it out and cleared it and left. 2 hours later her t&p went on her hwt, which was in the basement,but because i was there, something i did caused it. even though it was the floor below and i never went there. nature of our business, some customers are just asholes....and NO, the customer is NOT always right....


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

sjaquay said:


> rule number 1....customers all lie.... i put in a tankless on a well system. only turned off ball valves, did the work, turned valves back on. 3 days later client calls me and says his well pump wont shut off, i told him id come look at it but i dont know what it will cost because i dont know whats wrong with it, he says hes not paying me anything, that i WILL fix it for free because since i was there it must be my fault. some customers think that just because you did work in their home, anything that breaks anytime soon is obviously your fault, sometimes you just have to take a stand,especially when you know you are in the right. my all time fav one was i went to a home for a clogged kitchen sink drain, cabled it out and cleared it and left. 2 hours later her t&p went on her hwt, which was in the basement,but because i was there, something i did caused it. even though it was the floor below and i never went there. nature of our business, some customers are just asholes....and NO, the customer is NOT always right....


Even though this is the first time I meet you .. I would say you are right ...

They because it's connected it's your fault ,. Now being a professional you know it's not .... So no big deal you go out there and find what the problem is and boll them accordingly ...


I don't argue ... Just say I will be right over ... Then here is the bill for today


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

Why would you do that if they say their not going to pay? What would make then pay by showing up?


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

Plumberman911 said:


> Why would you do that if they say their not going to pay? What would make then pay by showing up?


The obvious fact that the problems are not connected, as illustrated by you as you fix the new problem. Also, it is one thing to say you aren't going to pay over the phone when you are mad, and quite another to look a person in the eye who has been nothing but professional, and spent a little time calming you down, and still say the same thing.


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