# Base of stack



## evan

"704.3 Connections to offsets and bases of stacks. Horizontal branches shall connect to the bases of stacks at a point located not less than 10 times the diameter of the drainage stack downstream from the stack. from IPC



So if i tie in downstream it has to be 10 pipe diameters. What about a heel inlet or side inlet 90? It's not upstream, it's not downstream. What say you? is it legal?


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## Anonymous

here is your answer

Horizontal branches *shall not* connect to the *bases of stacks*

*unless you are the distance allowed in code*


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## evan

what about a san tee on the vertical run with a street 90 slammed into it. That's accepted. the side inlet (2") ties in on the 90 higher than the horizontal run (3") so why not?


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## Anonymous

Had to reread your post..

the ty is not attached to the horizontal after the base of stack so it should be fine

You are tieing into to the vertical not the horizontal


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## evan

anonymous, 

I'm just using the sanitary tee as an example. the real question is..... what about a side inlet 90? BTW, I installed a wye 30" downstream of the base 2 days ago. just trying to see what the guys on the zone thought about it.


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## Anonymous

evan said:


> anonymous,
> 
> I'm just using the sanitary tee as an example. the real question is..... what about a side inlet 90? BTW, I installed a wye 30" downstream of the base 2 days ago. just trying to see what the guys on the zone thought about it.


The 90 with side inlet would fail IMO....


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## Tommy plumber

evan said:


> what about a san tee on the vertical run with a street 90 slammed into it. That's accepted. the side inlet (2") ties in on the 90 higher than the horizontal run (3") so why not?


 





Here's a 4" sanitary tee with a 2" side inlet. The 2" picks up a tub. ( I tried re-sizing on my computer, but was un-successful)


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## plbgbiz

Anonymous said:


> The 90 with side inlet would fail IMO....


I agree with the Unknown Plumber.


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## RealLivePlumber

Stop reading like an inspector.:laughing:

If you roll fitting up above 45 degrees, it is no longer a "horizontal" branch connection. It is vertical. Don't believe me, read the definitions.


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## plumbarius

Tommy plumber said:


> Here's a 4" sanitary tee with a 2" side inlet. The 2" picks up a tub. ( I tried re-sizing on my computer, but was un-successful)


That wouldn't be the base of the stack.....


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## themavinator

Anonymous said:


> here is your answer
> 
> Horizontal branches *shall not* connect to the *bases of stacks*
> 
> *unless you are the distance allowed in code*


Agreed


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## arie stratus

Tommy plumber said:


> Here's a 4" sanitary tee with a 2" side inlet. The 2" picks up a tub. ( I tried re-sizing on my computer, but was un-successful)


Instead of using all those fittings for the tub why did you not align the side inlet to the tub and use a sweep and regular 90° for the WC?


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## arie stratus

evan said:


> "704.3 Connections to offsets and bases of stacks. Horizontal branches shall connect to the bases of stacks at a point located not less than 10 times the diameter of the drainage stack downstream from the stack. from IPC
> 
> So if i tie in downstream it has to be 10 pipe diameters. What about a heel inlet or side inlet 90? It's not upstream, it's not downstream. What say you? is it legal?


Side inlet San tee is legal under UPC


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## wyrickmech

arie stratus said:


> Side inlet San tee is legal under UPC


side inlet anything should be outlawed.


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## arie stratus

wyrickmech said:


> side inlet anything should be outlawed.


Why?


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## wyrickmech

arie stratus said:


> Why?


all side inlets are straight taps not throated. They have a tendency catch trash or backwash, usually to close to a stool .


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## arie stratus

wyrickmech said:


> all side inlets are straight taps not throated. They have a tendency catch trash or backwash, usually to close to a stool .


Oh okay well that makes sense


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## Tommy plumber

arie stratus said:


> Instead of using all those fittings for the tub why did you not align the side inlet to the tub and use a sweep and regular 90° for the WC?












I wish I had better pictures than those. The picture I posted is from a Polaroid instant. 

Anyway, that job was originally in cast iron which had cracked and was leaking in the walls of an old mansion. With all the wood beams and other obstructions in the way, the 4" PVC santee had to line up to pick up the toilet; then I offset the 2" line to pick up the tub. If I remember correctly, the original waste line for the tub was lead, so the original plumbers bent the lead waste line to pick up the tub.


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## sparky

wyrickmech said:


> side inlet anything should be outlawed.



Highly illegal to use in ky,can't even buy them at supply houses and I agree should be outlawed


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## arie stratus

sparky said:


> Highly illegal to use in ky,can't even buy them at supply houses and I agree should be outlawed


In ky how far can you run a 2" dirty arm from the trap to stack. When I was in Indiana I saw 20' lengths of dirty arms. Just curious


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## love2surf927

arie stratus said:


> In ky how far can you run a 2" dirty arm from the trap to stack. When I was in Indiana I saw 20' lengths of dirty arms. Just curious


On a sovent system? I don't think that distance would be legal on any other system.


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## sparky

arie stratus said:


> In ky how far can you run a 2" dirty arm from the trap to stack. When I was in Indiana I saw 20' lengths of dirty arms. Just curious


I assume you are talking about trap to vent distance and on 2" it is 5ft


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## arie stratus

sparky said:


> I assume you are talking about trap to vent distance and on 2" it is 5ft


Do you live in KY?


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## sparky

arie stratus said:


> Do you live in KY?




South central region bout as ky as you can get impo


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## UA22PLumber

evan said:


> "704.3 Connections to offsets and bases of stacks. Horizontal branches shall connect to the bases of stacks at a point located not less than 10 times the diameter of the drainage stack downstream from the stack. from IPC
> 
> 
> 
> So if i tie in downstream it has to be 10 pipe diameters. What about a heel inlet or side inlet 90? It's not upstream, it's not downstream. What say you? is it legal?


Per Table 706.3 IPC

Vertical to horizontal transition must be made with a long sweep patterned fitting for 3" and above.

Side outlet 90s are based on a Quarter bend pattern.

Side outlet as the base of the stack = FAIL


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## everyday

Butchered top plate no straps


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## Keefer w

Heel outlet 90`s are allowed in KY


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## sparky

Keefer w said:


> Heel outlet 90`s are allowed in KY


Yes


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## plumbdrum

sparky said:


> Yes


So much for KY having a strict code.

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## wyrickmech

Keefer w said:


> Heel outlet 90`s are allowed in KY


 they have been ill eagle here sense the early 60s


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## sparky

plumbdrum said:


> So much for KY having a strict code.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Tell me the difference in them and regular tees???nothing whatsoever


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## plumbdrum

sparky said:


> Tell me the difference in them and regular tees???nothing whatsoever


Well the topic is base of stacks, correct?? So your saying it's ok to use a tee or a 90 at the base of a stack not a wye and 1/8 or long sweep? If so I've made my point about your code

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## wyrickmech

sparky said:


> Tell me the difference in them and regular tees???nothing whatsoever


 the reason they were outlawed here was because everybody was using them to vent stools.


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## sparky

plumbdrum said:


> Well the topic is base of stacks, correct?? So your saying it's ok to use a tee or a 90 at the base of a stack not a wye and 1/8 or long sweep? If so I've made my point about your code
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


yes you can use tees or 90s at the base of the stack,there is no reason not to use them,give me one good reason why it is not a good idea,some of these codes are just creating work for no reason


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## plumbdrum

sparky said:


> yes you can use tees or 90s at the base of the stack,there is no reason not to use them,give me one good reason why it is not a good idea,some of these codes are just creating work for no reason


Changes in direction from vertical to horizontal must be made with long sweep patterns.

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## plumbdrum

sparky said:


> yes you can use tees or 90s at the base of the stack,there is no reason not to use them,give me one good reason why it is not a good idea,some of these codes are just creating work for no reason


The only extra work would be putting down a regular 90 and picking up a long sweep, or gluing a wye and 1/8 bend, WOW lots of extra with there.

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## wyrickmech

plumbdrum said:


> The only extra work would be putting down a regular 90 and picking up a long sweep, or gluing a wye and 1/8 bend, WOW lots of extra with there. Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


 I would say he's got ya there sparky.


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## sparky

plumbdrum said:


> Changes in direction from vertical to horizontal must be made with long sweep patterns.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Not here in ky,the dwv fittings are tapped with 1/4" of fall in the sweep so that is why they allow them.if you are only allowed long sweep fittings that makes you have to dig your ditch that much deeper than necessary,useless in my opinion.water and air been flowing thru tees and 90s for yrs and yrs


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## sparky

wyrickmech said:


> the reason they were outlawed here was because everybody was using them to vent stools.


Yes we use heel Ells all the time on toilet vents works very good IMO.better that a tee with a bushin in it I think


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## sparky

wyrickmech said:


> I would say he's got ya there sparky.


Nope,what if you are doin a slab and it is solid rock and you can get the plumbing in by inline venting everything,then you get to your stack and have to turn up this massive combo fitting,that will not work but with a regular tee or 90 it would be at the same level and depth and you can get it all in and not use near as much gravel


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## plumbdrum

sparky said:


> Yes we use heel Ells all the time on toilet vents works very good IMO.better that a tee with a bushin in it I think


I'll agree with that fitting for the heel on the vertical for a dry vent, but that's it.

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## plumbdrum

sparky said:


> Nope,what if you are doin a slab and it is solid rock and you can get the plumbing in by inline venting everything,then you get to your stack and have to turn up this massive combo fitting,that will not work but with a regular tee or 90 it would be at the same level and depth and you can get it all in and not use near as much gravel


I guess you guys don't like to work hard in KY? Once again I question your code. You guys must love doing drain cleaning with all the extra time you have from not doing proper plumbing connections.

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## plumbdrum

Sparky what fittings do you use for horizontal lines??

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## CaptainBob

wyrickmech said:


> all side inlets are straight taps not throated. They have a tendency catch trash or backwash, usually to close to a stool .


Side inlet tees are allowed here in MN. I can say I have never seen or heard of any problems here with them, at least with PVC.


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## wyrickmech

sparky said:


> Yes we use heel Ells all the time on toilet vents works very good IMO.better that a tee with a bushin in it I think


 backwash will plug the vent and horizontal vent under flood level of fixture is illegal too. Depending on if it is a slab will also bring the fact that sanitary tees are illegal to install below grade.


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## Dave C.

see hydraulic jump


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## HonestPlumb

*Heel Outlets*



wyrickmech said:


> they have been ill eagle here sense the early 60s



Been using 3"X2" Heel outlets for a decade. OK, as long as they are washed.
I use them to wet vent a WC, through a Basin. Full 2", even past the Basin TY. I still use 2" to vent. Code says, top floor residential the vent can be 
1 1/2". In fact it will let you tie the tub into the horizontal 2" drain, waste arm it to the tub with no vent, 5' if 1 1/2" and 8' if 2" and just an 1 1/2" vent up from basin. Then depending where you are in the country your VTR will vary. The heel outlets are great when your basin is on opposite wall from WC. Especially when the floor joists are doubled and you only have 14" + - in between. I will admit the code is getting way to loose ! AAV's !!!! Getting easier and easier for The HandyMan or Mr. Fixit to do plumbing.
Regardless of the fact he doesn't have a license !


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## wyrickmech

Codes vary but like I said illegal here because of back wash into the vent. Wet venting is OK but cannot be brought off the centerline must be above center. While I agree with your assessment and yes it will wash the waist but a sink does not have the capacity to flush a turd that backwashes into the vent.


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## HonestPlumb

wyrickmech said:


> Codes vary but like I said illegal here because of back wash into the vent. Wet venting is OK but cannot be brought off the centerline must be above center. While I agree with your assessment and yes it will wash the waist but a sink does not have the capacity to flush a turd that backwashes into the vent.


I believe that is the purpose of the "washing of the vent". I do understand your point, though. I cant say for sure that a basin has never stopped up because of a turd in the 2" run of a 3X2 Heel outlet. Not immediately anyway. I have wet vented a WC using a 3X2 heel outlet with a tub or shower, as well. Again, I can not recall any issues immediately following a completion and usage of a bathroom. A turd laying at the edge of the 2", would surely get washed away shortly after the slim fact that it wasn't taken away in the initial flush. Unless it sat there until it dried and stuck. Wow,why did we choose this trade again ? !! I really love using my inspection camera, and going down the building sewer, and the customer is standing over your shoulder. You turn around and tell them what they had for dinner the night before !!!


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## ShtRnsdownhill

any kind of heel fitting..not code to use here...I wonder how they could do plumbing 100 years ago without all the engineers messing with the plumbing systems..it all seemed to work fine back then without all the codes....LOL...how many old bathrooms did we gut to find no vents and all kinds of crazy lead piping and connections that still worked 50, 60 , 80 or more years later...makes you wonder what was behind all the changes... we ( the powers to be) like to over engineer anything..like a contest to see how many useless parts can be made to be used in anything we build, whether plumbing systems to guns....just a random thought..


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## GAN

Heel & side outlets are approved in Illinois (less the Country of Chicago I believe). They lessen the amount of piping, do a decent venting job. They must be washed by a fixture and approved as a closet vent.

They do provide some access to the system for rodding.

Look at a 4" cross tee with dual 2" side outlets. I have used these a few times for tying in two back to back baths together in a residential situation. Thus it only requires this one fitting and 3"X 1 1/2" cross tee to tie the two lavatories together. That is efficient plumbing.


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## ShtRnsdownhill

GAN said:


> Heel & side outlets are approved in Illinois (less the Country of Chicago I believe). They lessen the amount of piping, do a decent venting job. They must be washed by a fixture and approved as a closet vent.
> 
> They do provide some access to the system for rodding.
> 
> Look at a 4" cross tee with dual 2" side outlets. I have used these a few times for tying in two back to back baths together in a residential situation. Thus it only requires this one fitting and 3"X 1 1/2" cross tee to tie the two lavatories together. That is efficient plumbing.


we call those " nationals" unknown if thats slang or the real name for them, but in our area thats the name..or what you ask for at the supply house.. http://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-P439-338-3-PVC-DWV-Double-Sanitary-Tee-w-2-R-L-Side-Inlets


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## plbgbiz

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> ...we ( the powers to be) like to over engineer anything..like a contest to see how many useless parts can be made to be used in anything we build....


I think you just quoted Kohler's mission statement. :laughing:


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## HonestPlumb

plbgbiz said:


> I think you just quoted Kohler's mission statement. :laughing:


You hit that nail right on the head, biz !!! I have learned new curse words, from working on some Kohler products !


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## bdaltonph

plbgbiz said:


> I think you just quoted Kohler's mission statement. :laughing:


Now that's funny and so true!


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## HonestPlumb

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> we call those " nationals" unknown if thats slang or the real name for them, but in our area thats the name..or what you ask for at the supply house.. http://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-P439-338-3-PVC-DWV-Double-Sanitary-Tee-w-2-R-L-Side-Inlets


downhill- That is quite the fitting !! I can see where it would be incredibly helpful. The only issue that could present a problem is snaking it. Guess a good "drop head", would be the solution for that. There is potential for crossflow between back to back fixtures. I was just looking at my book, and it is prohibited in any back to back Pressure Assisted fixture, "Back Outlet wc's", any pumped discharge fixtures. Also, "Blow Out" fixtures, not really sure what that one is. I know that is "exactly" what happens when I do use a wc, pressure assist, or gravity !!


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## ShtRnsdownhill

plbgbiz said:


> I think you just quoted Kohler's mission statement. :laughing:


then I would have to add" and charge as much as humanly possible for every part"..LOL


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## ShtRnsdownhill

HonestPlumb said:


> downhill- That is quite the fitting !! I can see where it would be incredibly helpful. The only issue that could present a problem is snaking it. Guess a good "drop head", would be the solution for that. There is potential for crossflow between back to back fixtures. I was just looking at my book, and it is prohibited in any back to back Pressure Assisted fixture, "Back Outlet wc's", any pumped discharge fixtures. Also, "Blow Out" fixtures, not really sure what that one is. I know that is "exactly" what happens when I do use a wc, pressure assist, or gravity !!


New technology is coming faster than codes can be updated to take that into consideration.....


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## OpenSights

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> we call those " nationals" unknown if thats slang or the real name for them, but in our area thats the name..or what you ask for at the supply house.. http://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-P439-338-3-PVC-DWV-Double-Sanitary-Tee-w-2-R-L-Side-Inlets


Around here they're called a "crows nest".


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## HonestPlumb

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> New technology is coming faster than codes can be updated to take that into consideration.....


downhill- You are absolutely right !


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## plumbdrum

OpenSights said:


> Around here they're called a "crows nest".




Double sanitary TY with 2 side inlets, or for short an estebrook 


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## Toli

plumbdrum said:


> Double sanitary TY with 2 side inlets, or for short an estebrook
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Cottage tee around here.


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## plumbdrum

Toli said:


> Cottage tee around here.




Yes, I've heard that term also


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## mtfallsmikey

Toli said:


> Cottage tee around here.


 Remember using those mostly on underfloor connections in Foremost modular homes, and yes, we called them cottage tees. No one carried them, had to be ordered from Charlotte.


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## mtfallsmikey

And filing down the stops in couplings to make slip couplings out of them, before they were manufactured. Only way we could glue the whole mess up together at once.


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## MDservices

wyrickmech said:


> side inlet anything should be outlawed.


Not allowed those fittings where I'm from, they don't even sell them. Use a proper fitting! There's always a way of fitting it!


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## wyrickmech

There called illegal around here.


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