# Partial Installation Warranties



## Worthy (Jul 15, 2020)

We do a lot of residential new construction and we are running into a lot of request for bids/contracts for rough in only or rough in/top out only with the homeowner setting fixtures. 

How do you feel about warrantying your work after someone else (not licensed) coming in behind you?

Do you have a limited warranty clause in your contracts to cover this?


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Worthy said:


> We do a lot of residential new construction and we are running into a lot of request for bids/contracts for rough in only or rough in/top out only with the homeowner setting fixtures.
> 
> How do you feel about warrantying your work after someone else (not licensed) coming in behind you?
> 
> Do you have a limited warranty clause in your contracts to cover this?


 In my area the home owner is NOT allowed to set fixtures or touch anything connected to potable water...so the plumber must do the whole job..and how would you work final inspections and permits pulled to allow a home owner to do plumbing work and you not be liable??


Yeah it would be a cold day in hell before that happens...


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

What would your insurance company say to that?


You'll have to add a clause that they sign holding you and your company harmless if they proceed to install their own fixtures. This assumes of course that you agree to that. Maybe you won't even agree to such nonsense and just walk away from the work.

Is this a regular occurrence, customers asking you to do the rough-ins only and allow them to set fixtures? Why would they even ask this? Are they that budget-conscious? Would they ask the roofing contractor to let them shingle the roof after he flies the trusses up and sheets the roof? 



I am not a prophet, but I can foresee some problems down the road with an arrangement like that. For example, let's just suppose an angle stop comes off the wall and causes damage due to a minor flood, the customer will want you to pony up for that. 

Which raises the question: Will your general liability policy cover them? I am not an insurance man, but I think that I already know the answer to that.

So a polite response to such a customer such as, "We're sorry, we do all the phases of plumbing from the 1st and 2nd rough to the final since our insurance won't allow us to do otherwise." may suffice.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> In my area the home owner is NOT allowed to set fixtures or touch anything connected to potable water...so the plumber must do the whole job..and how would you work final inspections and permits pulled to allow a home owner to do plumbing work and you not be liable??
> 
> 
> Yeah it would be a cold day in hell before that happens...










Down here in FL, a man's home is his castle. So any ying yang can build his own home to live in. If it falls down on him, no one cares....LOL


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## Worthy (Jul 15, 2020)

@ShtRnsdownhill
In the state of Texas there is the castle law, which allows any homesteading homeowner to pull their own permits for inspections. (they can't do this with rental properties or any property that they do not live in). We can pull our permit and specify that it is for the only aspects of the job we are doing and then close the permit once those aspects are complete and inspected. We also get this a lot in county areas where there isn't a required inspection.

I do have a clause in my contracts that states:
Any plumbing services not performed by our company or authorized representatives during the installation or warranty phase of this Contract will result in the immediate void of any and all warranties associated with this Contract.

We have actually done several of these and (knock on wood) haven't had any issues; however, I do fear there is that one that could really bite us. 
@tommyplumber
I haven't considered my insurance and will look into that - Thanks for the idea.


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## Worthy (Jul 15, 2020)

@Tommy plumber - mostly we get rough ins only for things like bathrooms in shops, where they want the plumbing in the concrete, but plan to add a bathroom at a later date, or in an upstairs, should they decide to expand an attic into a room. So it is not as uncommon as you would think. 

But Rough in & Top outs are definitely due to the homeowners wanting to set their own fixtures to save a few bucks. 

I don't like the idea of voiding our warranty, but feel we are left no choice with others (non-licensed, especially) finishing work we started. I will definitely consider the idea of just telling them we only do full systems.

Thank you all so much for you input!


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Worthy said:


> @*ShtRnsdownhill*
> In the state of Texas there is the castle law, which allows any homesteading homeowner to pull their own permits for inspections. (they can't do this with rental properties or any property that they do not live in). We can pull our permit and specify that it is for the only aspects of the job we are doing and then close the permit once those aspects are complete and inspected. We also get this a lot in county areas where there isn't a required inspection.
> 
> I do have a clause in my contracts that states:
> ...


 well then with todays digital age, video or take a ton of pictures of each job you do and only your work for documentation, this way if down the line you get called out on warranty issues you have tape and pics of what you did and thats all thats covered, along with a blurb in the contract about not warranting any one elses work...
usually if you have everyone sign your contract and let it be known you take lots of pics and video, there is less of a chance you get dragged into a lawsuit, but anything is possible...


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I would never do that in residential because you can guarantee 100% of the time the finish will be botched. You should take a look in the winner's thread, you'll see 225 pages of DIY. You can also guarantee they will call you when something leaks, 3 weeks, 3 years or whatever and some will blame you to pay for their mistakes, ruined ceilings, warped floors, mold and rot removal etc. That means you can also guarantee one of these days you will have to deal with a bad bad customer. And one of these days everything will go wrong and you will foot the bill. How much is the risk worth, put in a dollar amount if it will pay off.

Future stub outs in new houses is not uncommon but never in reno's.

Winner's thread :

https://www.plumbingzone.com/f7/winners-65210/


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Worthy said:


> We do a lot of residential new construction and we are running into a lot of request for bids/contracts for rough in only or rough in/top out only with the homeowner setting fixtures.
> 
> How do you feel about warrantying your work after someone else (not licensed) coming in behind you?
> 
> Do you have a limited warranty clause in your contracts to cover this?


We rough an let the customer finish quite often. Generally only for LL’s, but some HO’s too. Once we pass inspection and everything is good that’s when we’re done. We always leave water on, set temps, and water test every drain. If they break a flange or don’t glue a flange or sink stub out, that’s on them.

We have had to go back because someone screws something up, but that’s a new bill.


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## Worthy (Jul 15, 2020)

OpenSights said:


> We rough an let the customer finish quite often. Generally only for LL’s, but some HO’s too. Once we pass inspection and everything is good that’s when we’re done. We always leave water on, set temps, and water test every drain. If they break a flange or don’t glue a flange or sink stub out, that’s on them.
> 
> We have had to go back because someone screws something up, but that’s a new bill.


 @OpenSights
I am curious - Do you still warranty the portion of work you did? or does another's involvement void your warranty? Do you inform the customer up front and/or have a clause in your contracts?


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Worthy said:


> @OpenSights
> I am curious - Do you still warranty the portion of work you did? or does another's involvement void your warranty? Do you inform the customer up front and/or have a clause in your contracts?


I find things are very different in my area compared to most other places. We don’t do contracts. At best, we will write up an estimate stating what we will provide and what work we will perform. We really only do that when someone needs three bids for corporate or the insurance company. 99.9% of the time it’s a handshake. 

We’ve had to back and fix something the customer broke after a rough it’s always obvious and we charge for it. The very last part of the rough we generally don’t glue the flange if a floor repair is needed, same with sink drains, stub, but don’t glue. That way they don’t have to hack drywall or cabinets. Same with stops. We just cap the line. We leave the material they need and always say, “Let us know if you get in over your head and we’ll come back.

It’s funny you should bring this topic up. We actually have one coming up on Tuesday. One of our best customers, a PMC with a bunch of college rentals had a cracked stack for the second floor bath. These guys are smart! The water pressure from the old galvanized lines was pretty good, but they don’t like opening up walls twice. 

All we could test was the shower. So we told the maintenance guy to repair the floor, set the lav and test before closing up the ceiling and walls downstairs. Obviously he didn’t, and now it’s leaking in the basement. 

If we didn’t glue something, warranty. If the maintenance guy didn’t glue the flange correctly, we charge. This was the first time I’ve seen DWV ran the way they did when when the house was built. The lav washed the vent, 90, picked up the shower, the into the side of a tee with the stool on top of the tee. My money is on the stool not installed or glued. We’ll see.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Tommy plumber said:


> I am not a prophet, but I can foresee some problems down the road with an arrangement like that. For example, let's just suppose an angle stop comes off the wall and causes damage due to a minor flood, the customer will want you to pony up for that.
> 
> Which raises the question: Will your general liability policy cover them? I am not an insurance man, but I think that I already know the answer to that.


Good point bringing up insurance.

Good example with the stop. Bottom line is the liability falls on who installed it, or if it was defective from the manufacturer.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

OpenSights said:


> Good point bringing up insurance.
> 
> Good example with the stop. Bottom line is the liability falls on who installed it, or if it was defective from the manufacturer.










I brought that example up because it happened. My friend in S. Florida is a licensed mechanical contractor. On his street one of his neighbors re-modeled his kitchen. The neighbor used un-licensed workers. Either the supply line blew off or it was an angle stop. So there was water damage and such. My friend told me that his neighbor thought "Oh no big deal, I'll just submit a claim with my homeowner's insurance company."
They denied his claim because according to my friend, the neighbor didn't have 'construction insurance.'...….:vs_laugh:


Another story {true story as well}. I was talking to a man down here in FL who was from NC. He was trying to open an ice cream shop here in N. FL. He told me that he had a similar store up in NC but the building had burned to the ground. His little store was in a strip mall. And most of the little shops were destroyed by the fire. He submitted a claim with his insurance company. He told me that according to the policy, if the point of origin of the fire is never determined, then the insurance doesn't have to pay the claim. And so they never paid. The man lost his business {as did others in that strip mall in N.Carolina} and he got stiffed by his insurance company.

Talking to others has opened my eyes some.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Tommy plumber said:


> I brought that example up because it happened. My friend in S. Florida is a licensed mechanical contractor. On his street one of his neighbors re-modeled his kitchen. The neighbor used un-licensed workers. Either the supply line blew off or it was an angle stop. So there was water damage and such. My friend told me that his neighbor thought "Oh no big deal, I'll just submit a claim with my homeowner's insurance company."
> They denied his claim because according to my friend, the neighbor didn't have 'construction insurance.'...….:vs_laugh:
> 
> 
> ...


Goes to show you what a scam insurance is.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

OpenSights said:


> Goes to show you what a scam insurance is.



My takeaway from this is that we live in a capitalist society where almost all motives are driven by profit. If you don't want to get stiffed by your insurance than read the fine print. Might sound like a chore, and it is, but 2hrs of careful reading can save your whole business. I would have been more careful with what insurance policy I chose and asked for changes or gone with a different insurance company.


Or we could pass laws that regulate insurance companies and stop them from doing this sort of scammy schit, but that would be socialism and you guys would never be okay with that. 


.


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