# Codes - why we have them



## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

As many of you skim through the codes in your state or provincial (or national) codebook, you may be able to easily decipher the purpose or reasoning behind each of the clauses. There may be some clauses you don't agree with, and there may be some you observe but never cared as to why. I'd like to say we probably understand the reasoning or engineering practice behind most of the clauses in the code book and can explain why. Some of them are obvious, and some are not so obvious. 

But I know for a fact that a lot of codes became codes for a reason; they may have a story or history. Perhaps we don't know the original story as to why this particular clause came about, but you may have enough experience seeing it done wrong by an unlicensed individual or homeowner to know why this is in the codebook. 

What I'm asking for from you guys is to select some clauses you feel you know rather well and why they came about. This isn't for me. It's to enlighten each other so we can educate others about why certain clauses came about. For example, did a tank really implode because a guy didn't use a vacuum breaker? 

We can hopefully, if we have some good contributions to this thread, take this information and in a sublte manner, use it to enlighten customers and others through small talk to help see the importances of codes. Because really, without codes, there is no need for a license. And without codes, we lose standards for good, safe, and healthy plumbing installations.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

The code is there so we are all following the same practices in the same area.

You notice that the code is different in different areas of the world.

Yes it was a result of trail and error.... that being said the code or law that is..is ever evolving (changing).

Usually most code is above certain requirements like over engineering....


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I think an even better question is: Why are some codes not enforced in some areas even though they are on the books.

Example: Vacuum breakers are required on almost all water heaters in Florida yet less than 1% have them. The inspectors say nothing......

Example: As house plumber pointed out to me, we are required to install ASME approved mixing valves on roman tub faucets. No enforcement in most of the state.

Example: Using PVC for pan drains has been illegal for some time now. Most inspectors are still letting it fly though. It’s hard t actually get pans with cpvc male adapters in them at supply houses, that’s how lax enforcement is.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

I like to think of the code as more of a set of guidelines......











But seriously, the backflow prevention areas of all of our codes is probably the least understood and therefore overlooked parts, IMO.

Take backflows for carbonated water- it's a big deal, but alot of plumbers haven't a clue as to why.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Amazing how many don't know about copper poisining.


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## markb (Jun 11, 2009)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Amazing how many don't know about copper poisining.


Now you have me interested. Please elaborate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity


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## markb (Jun 11, 2009)

Colgar said:


> Take backflows for carbonated water- it's a big deal, but alot of plumbers haven't a clue as to why.


Also interested in the reason why. I suppose it has something to do with carbonation creating water pressure that will be higher than line pressure? And it happens often?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Amazing how many don't know about copper poisining.


To much of anything is no good... unless it is S E X but not with differnet partners if though it would be lots of fun


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## markb (Jun 11, 2009)

I got one to add to the thread. I mentioned this on another post, but never really elaborated.

The vertical leg on a WC has a maximum drop of 1M (3.3ft) because any more than that promotes self-siphoning. I do not believe it is a large issue with very low consumption WCs, such as most Totos. But if someone were to install a monster toilet from the 70's that they bought at a yard sale, they could have problems. 


Mixing valves are slowly being enforced here. Plumbers and customers are also mis-informed about them. Customers are upset because it is an "Unessesary" added cost to the installation ("I never needed one before, why do I need one now? *). The plumber is now worried how to justify the added cost and ends up saying something along the lines of, "The inspector is a SOB. That's why you need it".

No one mentions the added benefits of a mixing valve, to name two:

- Eliminate the chance of legionar's (SP) disease when your children and elderly parents take showers. 

- Increase the storage capacity of your current HWT by as much as 40% (If you are desperate enough to heat your tank water to 180 degrees)









* I also had a customer mention this to me about a *missing low-water cut-off* today on a steam to hot water boiler switch out. :laughing:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

markb said:


> Also interested in the reason why. I suppose it has something to do with carbonation creating water pressure that will be higher than line pressure? And it happens often?


It's a chemical reaction between the copper and the carbonation. I think it's called carbonic acid. Protech will know.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Protech said:


> I think an even better question is: Why are some codes not enforced in some areas even though they are on the books.
> 
> Example: Vacuum breakers are required on almost all water heaters in Florida yet less than 1% have them. The inspectors say nothing......
> 
> ...


I am aware that bottom-fed W/H's need a vacuum breaker, but as far as I knew the hole in the dip tube was sufficient for W/H's top-fed. FL Plumbing Code 504.1 & 504.2


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

markb said:


> I got one to add to the thread. I mentioned this on another post, but never really elaborated.
> 
> The vertical leg on a WC has a maximum drop of 1M (3.3ft) because any more than that promotes self-siphoning. I do not believe it is a large issue with very low consumption WCs, such as most Totos. But if someone were to install a monster toilet from the 70's that they bought at a yard sale, they could have problems.
> 
> ...


 
A low water cutoff is only needed if there is piping below the boiler.

Lots of the new boiler are pressure sensitive ...in that the will not fire on low pressure.


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## markb (Jun 11, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> A low water cutoff is only needed if there is piping below the boiler.
> 
> Lots of the new boiler are pressure sensitive ...in that the will not fire on low pressure.


Does that mean if a boiler has the water connections from the top, a low-water cut-off is unnecessary?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

markb said:


> Does that mean if a boiler has the water connections from the top, a low-water cut-off is unnecessary? Or are we talking only about rads?


As long as the piping is above the boiler a low water is not required


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> I am aware that bottom-fed W/H's need a vacuum breaker, but as far as I knew the hole in the dip tube was sufficient for W/H's top-fed. FL Plumbing Code 504.1 & 504.2


A vacuum breaker or a vacuum relief valve?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Killertoiletspider said:


> A vacuum breaker or a vacuum relief valve?[/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Vacuum relief valve. I'm so used to saying vac. breaker.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

markb said:


> * I also had a customer mention this to me about a *missing low-water cut-off* today on a steam to hot water boiler switch out. :laughing:





OldSchool said:


> A low water cutoff is only needed if there is piping below the boiler.
> 
> Lots of the new boiler are pressure sensitive ...in that the will not fire on low pressure....
> 
> As long as the piping is above the boiler a low water is not required


Here they are required on all steam & hot water boilers. Don't you think there is a need to protect hot water boilers from sudden loss of water as well?:whistling2:



> More states are now requiring them, such as New Jersey, Connecticut and
> Rhode Island. Manufacturers also recommend using a low-water cutoff with hot water boilers particularly in applications located above radiation, such as perimeter heat, snow melt, slab on grade, and with indirect water heaters....
> 
> Low water protection isn’t just for steam boilers. Hot water
> ...


http://www.mcdonnellmiller.com/pdf/lit/mm-MM-830.pdf


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

To enforce a minimum required standard of material requirement and work practice. 

And it is, minimum.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

markb said:


> Also interested in the reason why. I suppose it has something to do with carbonation creating water pressure that will be higher than line pressure? And it happens often?


In a nutshell-



> *Post-Mix Carbonated Beverage Machines* – We see these machines whenever we go to a restaurant, convenience store, or movie theatre. We get a cup from the dispenser, put some ice in it, and fill it with our favorite flavor. The problem with this application is probably the most difficult for people to understand. We drink soda from these machines every day, so what is the problem? These machines work by mixing flavored syrup with carbonated water at the proper ratio to make soda. The carbonated water is made by taking regular tap water and pumping it full of carbon dioxide gas creating carbonic acid.
> 
> The problem, of course, comes when a backflow situation develops. When this happens, some of the water that has already been carbonated is drawn back into the supply piping. Depending on when the building was built, it is likely that the supply piping is made from copper. When the carbonated water comes into contact with the copper pipe, the acid begins to chemically dissolve it. This copper-laden water has been known to make people sick.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

I have an old 1950-something code book that lists the code and gives a little back story to why the code is so along with a couple real life examples of what had happened when the code was not followed. I will see if I can find this book in my many boxes of books I never unpacked when I moved and scan a few pages in for you all.


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## accobra88 (Nov 8, 2010)

Code are for saftey and health ...


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Good example of code. We used to run 4" sewers and at least one 4" vent when code in book called for 3". Never understood this till inspector told me the city sewer mains get their venting from what we supply and the city at that time had a shortage of venting that was needed. We now use 3".


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

mpsllc said:


> Good example of code. We used to run 4" sewers and at least one 4" vent when code in book called for 3". Never understood this till inspector told me the city sewer mains get their venting from what we supply and the city at that time had a shortage of venting that was needed. We now use 3".


Thats a ridiculous statement :laughing: How many 3" vents does it take to vent your typical 8" - 10" sewer main? You have to increase to 4"? Some inspectors


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Pipe Rat said:


> Thats a ridiculous statement :laughing: How many 3" vents does it take to vent your typical 8" - 10" sewer main? You have to increase to 4"? Some inspectors


I expect it was more the city engineers piping it down to the inspectors.
Who knows but that was the deal.


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## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

Great thread. I have been lurking for a few weeks, and this is the thread that forced me to register.

I had a water heater rep tell me that one of the reasons for the new water heater safety devices (the flame arrestors/restriction device) was because some couple was trying to take paint or tar off their dog with gasoline. They were trying to clean the dog up in their garage where the water heater was. The vapors from the gas went over to the pilot light on the heater.

The dog didn't make it, and the homeowners were burnt up and down their arms. 

Don't know if it is true or not, but it is a hell of a thing if it is true.

Glad to be here.

--Will


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## Shuanvon (Aug 5, 2009)

slickrick said:


> It's a chemical reaction between the copper and the carbonation. I think it's called carbonic acid. Protech will know.


I have to jump in on this one because we have very little enforcement on this as well The problem arises as soon as the carbon dioxide gas touches the copper tubing. At this moment, a chemical reaction takes place and creates COPPER SULFATE  this junk ain't nice. Our inspectors are now requiring a single s/s check valve. Which is cool but it is not testable. realistically they should have a s/s rp. I agree that these are stupid expensive, but they enforce less severe code infractions all the time...why not one like this. It is just a matter of time before something bad happens:icon_sad: 



I have now stepped down from my soapbox:yes:


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## jacasviera (May 15, 2010)

you are 100% right.


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## mongo (Jun 26, 2010)

Vent frost closure- Here in the deep south it is non existent but yet it is in the code book. I can see it's use in northern climates, thus the code.


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## yoda (Nov 23, 2010)

Combraco make a plastic DCAPC (Dual Check Atmospheric Port for Carbonators) That has CSA B64 approval for use way up here in Canada. The piping downstream must not contain copper or brass and if the port spills water it indicate a failure.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

yoda said:


> Combraco make a plastic DCAPC (Dual Check Atmospheric Port for Carbonators) That has CSA B64 approval for use way up here in Canada. The piping downstream must not contain copper or brass and if the port spills water it indicate a failure.


Hey, post an intro


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