# paper thin 1/2 copper - what's the reason?



## Green Dog (Dec 3, 2010)

well here's a first one - 1/2" hot, water 90 degree elbow, 60 inches away from hot water tank.
6 month ago main water supply has been replaced to 3/4" copper up to hot water tank.
It looks like pipe went to the tin-foil thickness by some kind of mechanical abrasion? electro-chemical reaction?




















I have never seen anything like that - but beside my amusement i wander why is this happen because here's the second: Pissing hole in 1/2" T.
Which happened 2 weeks after first burst, and just 3 inches above first elbow.
Pipe on the right side of T is normal thickness but pipe on the left - is tinfoil thickness again. you can actually squish pipe in between fingers.
I have heard of manufacturing defects - but for 9 years never seen anything like this myself.










No need to say I am worried about cause of this - as this look like a ticking time bomb. if this mysterious ?chemical? reaction is going on in the pipe , and eating it away slowly - that's a recipe for disaster.

Any advise - appreciated.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

that is not the hand of a plumber,,,,,way too clean and soft


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

It looks like you live in the Greater Vancouver area. I don't think I've see one that thin very often, they usually don't last that long before pinholing and getting replaced, but our water does that to copper. The water is super pure - no buffering qualities the engineers say, meaning it doesn't form a protective mineral layer on the inner pipe wall. It's also very soft (low PH). So not only the low PH water attacks the pipe, but the chlorine (strong oxidizer) attacks it as well. Old buildings get pinholed copper routinely. I use a lot of pex because of it.


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## Green Dog (Dec 3, 2010)

futz said:


> It looks like you live in the Greater Vancouver area.


Thank for reply Futz, I am from Greater Toronto Area.
I was blaming the water myself - but why right sleeve of T is normal thickness and left sleeve of is paper-thin?

Residential homeowner's insurance policies here in GTA so far won't cover pex plumbing.(don't confuse if with your business insurance) Residential underwriters particularly specify that residential plumbing to be done with copper.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Green Dog said:


> Thank for reply Futz, I am from Greater Toronto Area.
> I was blaming the water myself - but why right sleeve of T is normal thickness and left sleeve of is paper-thin?
> 
> Residential homeowner's insurance policies here in GTA so far won't cover pex plumbing.(don't confuse if with your business insurance) Residential underwriters particularly specify that residential plumbing to be done with copper.


Paper Thin Copper close to a fitting could come from hydraulic jump. As when a non-reamed joint deflects the flow and it jumps back to the wall a couple of inches later. On the piping I am concerned with the red lettering "M" is not a water product where I come from but is only used for heat. If the piping in question is on recirc. Pump is pumping too fast.


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## Green Dog (Dec 3, 2010)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> On the piping I am concerned with the red lettering "M" is not a water product where I come from but is only used for heat.


it's not "M" its "W" WOLVERINE it says.

an older gentleman told me that "... Wolverine in London,Ontario did make some substandard copper pipe while ago...."

it may be the cause of whole aggravation.




PLUMBER_BILL said:


> If the piping in question is on recirc. Pump is pumping too fast.


No pumping involved - city water - city pressure.
Piping in question is hot water arm.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Green Dog said:


> it's not "M" its "W" WOLVERINE it says.
> 
> an older gentleman told me that "... Wolverine in London,Ontario did make some substandard copper pipe while ago...."
> 
> ...


No ... No ...

Yellow marking is "DWV" 
Green is "K"
Blue is "L"
Red is "M" sometime Canada "W" standing for Hydronic

Wolverine, Reading, whatever would not matter, in the US


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## DIZ (Nov 17, 2010)

GREENPLUM said:


> that is not the hand of a plumber,,,,,way too clean and soft


I was thinking the same thing! I often think I missed my calling as a detective or surgeon!


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Green Dog said:


> it's not "M" its "W" WOLVERINE it says.
> 
> an older gentleman told me that "... Wolverine in London,Ontario did make some substandard copper pipe while ago...."
> 
> ...


 
Really???? you've got to be kidding me.


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## Green Dog (Dec 3, 2010)

DIZ said:


> I was thinking the same thing! I often think I missed my calling as a detective or surgeon!





GREENPLUM said:


> that is not the hand of a plumber,,,,,way too clean and soft


For detectives  I can recommend:
1) this - http://www.utilitysafeguard.com/Flex-Grip-Subcontractor-Gloves/

2) this - http://reviews.canadiantire.ca/9045...r-heavy-duty-hand-cleaner-reviews/reviews.htm

and finaly,

3) this - http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LUBRIDERM-Moisturizing-Lotion-3ZFL2?Pid=search


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

The pipe shown on the right looks like it has been exposed to low ph water. No patina......


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

I just ate a whole bag of W&W candies:laughing:


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

easttexasplumb said:


> I just ate a whole bag of W&W candies:laughing:


Thats funny right there^

Back on topic. I think that the W copper is supposed to be that thin. You see, type k is the thickest wall, L is in the middle, M is thinner wall, so..................... W would have to be thinner than M, since W comes after M in the alphabet:blink:

:laughing:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I got here late. Do we need to wack someone?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

whats up with green dog.... trying to delete his post :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

In the 70's and early 80's, there was a copper shortage so to make up for it they allowed for water pipe to be made out of a thinner gauge than M. They took that out of the code because the paper thin crap is garbage. I forgot what they called this pipe but it was about as thick as DWV(yellow).


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> In the 70's and early 80's, there was a copper shortage so to make up for it they allowed for water pipe to be made out of a thinner gauge than M. They took that out of the code because the paper thin crap is garbage. I forgot what they called this pipe but it was about as thick as DWV(yellow).


I'm pretty sure DWV is the same wall thickness as M. The thinner-than-M stuff is (if I remember correctly) H, and it's marked white. It's the stuff in the middle of the fins in hot water baseboard. It was made for heating only, not waterpipes. I've never seen the stuff except for in baseboards.

I don't think they made it because of a copper shortage - it just made sense not to make it thicker than required. You don't need thick wall copper for heating systems. Pressures and velocities are low, and the water has little free oxygen and no chlorine, so thin wall copper makes sense.

Back then, somewhere in that era, there was a copper glut (more than once). I remember doing apartment buildings in DWV copper instead of cast iron. I've ripped lots of old houses that had DWV copper throughout (I seem to have some vague memory of installing some myself in houses).


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

futz said:


> I'm pretty sure DWV is the same wall thickness as M. The thinner-than-M stuff is (if I remember correctly) H, and it's marked white. It's the stuff in the middle of the fins in hot water baseboard. It was made for heating only, not waterpipes. I've never seen the stuff except for in baseboards.
> 
> I don't think they made it because of a copper shortage - it just made sense not to make it thicker than required. You don't need thick wall copper for heating systems. Pressures and velocities are low, and the water has little free oxygen and no chlorine, so thin wall copper makes sense.
> 
> Back then, somewhere in that era, there was a copper glut (more than once). I remember doing apartment buildings in DWV copper instead of cast iron. I've ripped lots of old houses that had DWV copper throughout.


 They allowed if for use here for potable water in the 70'/ early 80's. I think your right it is the white labeled stuff. I think DWV is thinner than M, otherwise whats the difference?


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## SCP Plumber (Jan 13, 2011)

a pipe that is thinned out like that is almost always (97%) on a hot water recirc. line. since the water is always moving, it wears it out faster. i work in high rise. its my number one call. i wonder why type m is code for high rise and not type l. no complaints. but i wonder, where is all the copper going? into us? and what will that do to us in 25 yrs......just a thought


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Wall thicness of 3" copper:

K - 0.109
L - 0.090
M - 0.072
DWV - 0.045

Mark


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

M is for sale at your local HD. The HO's love to use it. I think it is still legal for use with water lines, but not many plumbers use it.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

ToUtahNow said:


> Wall thicness of 3" copper:
> 
> K - 0.109
> L - 0.090
> ...


 



That jives with what I've read in plumbing books, namely that DWV is thinner wall than 'M'.


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