# Labour Saving Ideas



## Firestone (Mar 2, 2010)

Hey guys as an estimator in commercial mechanical i'm always looking for new ideas and technologies that can help us cut our labour factor down when estimating a job to give us the competetive advantage. I'm located in British Columbia , Canada and thought it would be great to hear of some of the tools and pipe/fitting technologies that have been surfacing in your regions. 

Product that i'm currently looking at is Aquatherm a GREEN product (literally it's green), manufactured in Germany, looks like a great product I think the only real issue with it is the initial cost investment if you're doing 2" and larger pipe it's about a $10,000 investment. Not only that but I find it's kind of a complicated system, 2 different pipes one for hot one for cold , and the whole fusion thing adds to the complication. Has anyone used this product? Have you seen a return on your investment of this product? Has it allowed you to be more competitive in estimating?

Another that we're looking at is the ProPress system , I love the system and I love the fact that the tool has interchangeable heads (there's one that snapcuts for you WOW!) What I don't love is the cost of fittings , and I don't see how this will benefit me when estimating a project. What's your experience with this product?


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

Pro-press ROCKS


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## SummPlumb (Feb 19, 2010)

Time is money. Who cares what the fittings cost if you can save 100 hours pressing fittings?

I know nothing about the other system. I do own propress tools for crimping. They work flawlessly. 

I have not found a need to buy the attachment to snap cast iron. They gun would get really nasty laying under old houses and buildings where cast iron hides. I have the low profile Ridgid chain cutter and it has been strong now for ten years.


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## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

Whats your handicap when it comes to competing with other companys?

My guess is material discount. Everyone uses wirsbo and cast. If you can get it cheaper you can bid cheaper.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Good luck with saving on your Labour.:whistling2:


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## Firestone (Mar 2, 2010)

AKdaplumba said:


> Whats your handicap when it comes to competing with other companys?
> 
> My guess is material discount. Everyone uses wirsbo and cast. If you can get it cheaper you can bid cheaper.


 
Before doing what i'm doing now I managed the plumbing wholesaler that I now buy from , so I do know that I have the most competitive material pricing across the board , so I don't think that's where my handicap is.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

Firestone said:


> Before doing what i'm doing now I managed the plumbing wholesaler that I now buy from , so I do know that I have the most competitive material pricing across the board , so I don't think that's where my handicap is.


Hmmm, you've never been in the trenches, then, huh?
I'm not trying to lock horns with you or anything but so far all the posts that I've seen from you have to do with how to save money/manpower/materials in order increase the bottom line.

No harm in that. That's what all saavy business owners/managers are trying to do these days. Make more, spend less.

Without being confrontational I'd like to point out that the more you alienate yourself from the working stiff, the more you distance yourself from any profits being earned.

There are literally thousands of ppl across the continent doing what you do and trying to make a difference by shaving here and saving there, looking for the magic bullet that'll suddenly rebound the balance sheet to show that hiring you was the single most important move the company could ever have made.

I could be wrong but I sense that your workers are nothing more than chattel to you. A liability that you could do without rather than an asset that should be built upon.

AM I wrong? If so then my bad, but take a step back and have a truly objective look at how things are going compared to how things _should_ be. Do you have a high turnover rate? Are you looking at the latest unemployment figures with glee thinking that an untapped workforce awaits you?

Is this your company were talking about? I mean "your own", or are you another hire? It doesn't make a lot of difference in this context but it makes enough.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I think you've hit the nail on the head Miguel...:whistling2:
Sounds like another company being run by a bunch of talking heads...:blink:


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## Firestone (Mar 2, 2010)

Miguel said:


> Hmmm, you've never been in the trenches, then, huh?
> I'm not trying to lock horns with you or anything but so far all the posts that I've seen from you have to do with how to save money/manpower/materials in order increase the bottom line.
> 
> No harm in that. That's what all saavy business owners/managers are trying to do these days. Make more, spend less.
> ...


I'm not a ticketed plumber , nor have i gone to school for it a day in my life. I've worked both with my customers in the past and my employees now, hands on digging in the trenches and working in the field.

I've only really had 2 posts , one was for ideas on making work a little more enjoyable for my staff and this one reaching out for new ideas and technologies. I'm not doing this to save a buck, i'm doing this to make myself competitive in estimating, I'm well aware that my competition uses ProPress and some are currently using Aquatherm as well, I wanted to see if there is really a return on the labour portion in using these tools as the tools themselves are very expensive and so are the fittings.

I work very closely with my employees on the field right down to the apprentices and labourers, i'm actually good friends with most of them as they were once customers of mine. So yes you are very wrong , I do not understand why just because I ask to hear what new technologies and products out there you people are seeing in your regions , and asking for new ideas to help make my employees jobs a little more enjoyable, that you would think I do not appreciate my staff. I am starting to see why there's so many posts called "Leave your ego at the door", etc. as i've pretty much just been getting personal shots taken at me in only 2 posts i've done. 

So instead of jacking my thread and turning it into something totally different , if you have nothing relevant to my post then please don't post anything at all.


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

If your not a plumber or never been to school for it, then how can you estimate a plumbing job?


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

Bollinger plumber said:


> If your not a plumber or never been to school for it, then how can you estimate a plumbing job?


To be fair, the skillset needed to function as an estimator for any trade is quite a bit different then the skills required to actually do the job. There is a knowledge requirement overlap in that both sides of "the team" must know a great deal about the trade they're working in (_of course_) but the journeyman belongs in the field.

That being said, the estimator had better have a good relationship with the people in the field or even the best methods will fail. It looks like I p1ssed off the OPer by attempting point this out (and then redwood comes and pours kerosene all over it! :laughing.

PP/HDPE fusion systems can be a great thing, in fact polypropylene (did I spell that right?) is often spec'd as the ideal for situations when the water is too pure (distilled, reverse osmosis, etc). As a replacement for typical distribution piping and joinery methods that the people in the field know and are used to? Nope. As a cheaper alternative? Nope :no:

Propress will get great press (get it? Great press? ) around here, particularly with larger diameters. It costs more but the saving should be made in installation time. Could be viable...

Segue to my earlier point: How will it be received by the people actually using it? If it causes them to lose money then you can kiss that investment goodbye. Did they have any say in the decision making process? Did they react positively to the idea? Negatively but their input was ignored? 
There's alot to consider other than the nuts and bolts of the thing.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

Firestone said:


> I do not understand why just because I ask to hear what new technologies and products out there you people are seeing in your regions , and asking for new ideas to help make my employees jobs a little more enjoyable, that you would think I do not appreciate my staff. I am starting to see why there's so many posts called "Leave your ego at the door", etc. as i've pretty much just been getting personal shots taken at me in only 2 posts i've done.


Don't construe any opinion or response that I give (or anyone else for that matter) as an attack. Shots, jibes and inuendo are a matter of course around here. Suck it up, buttercup.


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## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

Well you dont have to be a rocket scientist to estimate. afew courses and playing with someone else's money helps


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

I would think that if you are doing new construction or a least working in wide open paths, you would see some time savings. 

In service and repair, so much time is spent to control dust and cleaning up after that adding a saw with a vacuum attachment should also be on your list, if that's your arena.

I've propressed and soldered for repipes. The bigger the job, the more time savings. For a one-off reroute, not much time savings.


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## KCplumber (Dec 31, 2009)

Miguel said:


> Don't construe any opinion or response that I give (or anyone else for that matter) as an attack. Shots, jibes and inuendo are a matter of course around here. Suck it up, buttercup.


 
I can't even contribute anything to this "What the hell is Labour? " JK


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

KCplumber said:


> I can't even contribute anything to this "What the hell is Labour? " JK


They just talk a little different and spell a little different up in the northern states...:thumbup:


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## eddiecalder (Jul 15, 2008)

Miguel,

Do you guys use or own a T-drill?


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## SPH (Nov 4, 2008)

Go back to EMCO!!


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

PlungerJockey said:


> Pro-press ROCKS


 And it keeps my hands baby soft.:thumbsup:


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

Firestone said:


> Hey guys as an estimator in commercial mechanical i'm always looking for new ideas and technologies that can help us cut our labour factor down when estimating a job to give us the competetive advantage. I'm located in British Columbia , Canada and thought it would be great to hear of some of the tools and pipe/fitting technologies that have been surfacing in your regions.
> 
> Product that i'm currently looking at is Aquatherm a GREEN product (literally it's green), manufactured in Germany, looks like a great product I think the only real issue with it is the initial cost investment if you're doing 2" and larger pipe it's about a $10,000 investment. Not only that but I find it's kind of a complicated system, 2 different pipes one for hot one for cold , and the whole fusion thing adds to the complication. Has anyone used this product? Have you seen a return on your investment of this product? Has it allowed you to be more competitive in estimating?
> 
> Another that we're looking at is the ProPress system , I love the system and I love the fact that the tool has interchangeable heads (there's one that snapcuts for you WOW!) What I don't love is the cost of fittings , and I don't see how this will benefit me when estimating a project. What's your experience with this product?


 You asked what will help with labour savings, well propress knocks the labour way back. Obviously the upfront investment is there, but we love it. Oh and so do our customers.:thumbup:


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## Firestone (Mar 2, 2010)

SPH said:


> Go back to EMCO!!


Haha , who is this?


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## SPH (Nov 4, 2008)

Dan Jr. @ Schubert Plumbing.

You still working at Firestone?


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## Firestone (Mar 2, 2010)

SPH said:


> Dan Jr. @ Schubert Plumbing.
> 
> You still working at Firestone?


Ay man I figured it was either Schubert jr or one of the Sunset boys. No i'm not actually they shut the company down last week. Maybe I will be going back to Emco haha.


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## plumbing ninja (Jan 15, 2012)

Geberit Mapress (Germany), Yorkshire X-press (UK) and Victaulics Pressfit (USA) are equivalents. The Aquatherm has it's place and as you said you need different pipe for cold water, hot water, outside use etc. Aquatherm needs more pipe hangars and larger saddles to install. In colder regions its hard to get the irons up to heat to make the join. One crew we had huddled in the elevator shaft to try achieve welds. 
On industrial jobs I won't use it because I've seen to many failures in it where heat, temp dif or UV is involved. Suppliers have in the past not carried enough stock of Aquatherm and will give you Wethathem, chinese, russion, brazillian or turkish made PPR products to complete the balance of order
The left over short pcs of pipe couldn't be sold for scrap at the end of the job so my crew went beer free after leaving the site. I'd be happy to install Aquatherm in my ex wifes luxury apartment that I single handedly help financed!


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

I turned my whole workforce into cyborgs. It was great, no crying about working holidays, or under houses. Until they organized, now they want weekends ect.


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