# Question regarding the 135 degree hor. change in direction.



## snyper1982

My question is do you have a total of 135 degrees of change in the line, so a 90 and a 45, then that is it, or is it an overall type thing? i am trying to design a dig for our backhoe guy, and I have always tried to keep it to a 90 and 45 max, but I can't do it in this situation. I posted a pic to show what I am talking about. The long 45 coming off the main line is just a 2" branch. The short 45 offset is where I am worried.


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## rjbphd

snyper1982 said:


> My question is do you have a total of 135 degrees of change in the line, so a 90 and a 45, then that is it, or is it an overall type thing? i am trying to design a dig for our backhoe guy, and I have always tried to keep it to a 90 and 45 max, but I can't do it in this situation. I posted a pic to show what I am talking about. The long 45 coming off the main line is just a 2" branch. The short 45 offset is where I am worried.


Go over to the DIY trench digger site..


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## snyper1982

rjbphd said:


> Go over to the DIY trench digger site..


Why would I do that? I am asking if this is legal for a main sewer line?


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## Gargalaxy

snyper1982 said:


> Why would I do that? I am asking if this is legal for a main sewer line?


An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. 

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/. The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( THOSE ENGAGED IN THE PLUMBING PROFESSION) Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field. This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is.


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## snyper1982

Gargalaxy said:


> An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link.
> 
> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/. The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( THOSE ENGAGED IN THE PLUMBING PROFESSION) Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field. This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is.



I posted one.


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## ToUtahNow

Sorry but when you ask silly questions you are likely to be ridiculed. Do yourself a favor and go crack the binding on the CPC.

Mark


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## snyper1982

It would be nice to just get a straight answer.... But I can see thats to much to ask from here. So you can go ahead and delete my account. I already fixed my issue. i can only hope you get as much help next time you ask Utah, as you offered, me... As if reading the cpc is completely straight forward, and I haven't already tried to find my answer in there.....


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## mccmech

snyper1982 said:


> My question is do you have a total of 135 degrees of change in the line, so a 90 and a 45, then that is it, or is it an overall type thing? i am trying to design a dig for our backhoe guy, and I have always tried to keep it to a 90 and 45 max, but I can't do it in this situation. I posted a pic to show what I am talking about. The long 45 coming off the main line is just a 2" branch. The short 45 offset is where I am worried.


This is why I really dislike you guys who sit at computers & figure stuff out with yer "CAD" programs & the like! "Well it works on the program". You should ALL have to do in-field work once ya start working with those programs, just so you can see how the real world works!!!! Now that I vented, how are you coming up with a 135 degree change of direction? Even your precious computer image shows a minor offset in the drainage. Is this a horizontal to horizontal change of direction? If so, what's the drop in elevation? Why can't ya just use two forty-fives to make the offset? Besides, realizing that I'm not an extremely bright guy, your 135 degree change of direction would have you coming back, in some fashion, towards your starting point. Anything beyond 90 degrees brings you heading back towards yer starting point. Damn, you computer guys have no phuking common sense!!!!!!


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## rjbphd

snyper1982 said:


> It would be nice to just get a straight answer.... But I can see thats to much to ask from here. So you can go ahead and delete my account. I already fixed my issue. i can only hope you get as much help next time you ask Utah, as you offered, me... As if reading the cpc is completely straight forward, and I haven't already tried to find my answer in there.....


Use a folding ruler..


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## mccmech

And by the way, there is no long or short 45! 45 degrees is 45 degrees. There are long sweep 90's and short sweep 90's, but two 45's always have to make a 90. 45 degrees is 45 degrees!!!


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## snyper1982

mccmech said:


> This is why I really dislike you guys who sit at computers & figure stuff out with yer "CAD" programs & the like! "Well it works on the program". You should ALL have to do in-field work once ya start working with those programs, just so you can see how the real world works!!!! Now that I vented, how are you coming up with a 135 degree change of direction? Even your precious computer image shows a minor offset in the drainage. Is this a horizontal to horizontal change of direction? If so, what's the drop in elevation? Why can't ya just use two forty-fives to make the offset? Besides, realizing that I'm not an extremely bright guy, your 135 degree change of direction would have you coming back, in some fashion, towards your starting point. Anything beyond 90 degrees brings you heading back towards yer starting point. Damn, you computer guys have no phuking common sense!!!!!!


I can see you never read my intro. I worked in the field for 5 years before a knee injury landed me on the computer. I see no reason to name call... I didn't. I understand I had a slight offset, which is why i was asking if it is 135 degrees of total change or 135 degrees from your original direction.. 

Even elementary math shows that 90 plus 45 plus 45= More than 135, hence my question....


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## ToUtahNow

_2009 UPC 706.1 Changes in direction of drainage piping shall be made by the appropriate use of approved fittings and shall be of the angles presented by a one-sixteenth (1/16) bend, one-eighth (1/8) bend, or one-sixth (1/6) bend, or other approved fittings of equivalent sweep.
_
_2009 UPC 707.4 Each horizontal drainage pipe shall be provided with a clean-out at its upper terminal, and each run of piping, that is more than one hundred (100) feet (30,480 mm) in total developed length, shall be provided with a clean-out for each one-hundred (100) feet (30,480 mm), or fraction thereof, in length of such piping. An additional clean-out shall be provided in a drainage line for each aggregate horizontal change of direction exceeding 135 degrees (2.36 rad)._


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## mccmech

snyper1982 said:


> I can see you never read my intro. I worked in the field for 5 years before a knee injury landed me on the computer. I see no reason to name call... I didn't. I understand I had a slight offset, which is why i was asking if it is 135 degrees of total change or 135 degrees from your original direction..
> 
> Even elementary math shows that 90 plus 45 plus 45= More than 135, hence my question....


First off, I did read your intro. That actually makes your question more pathetic, at least to me. Let me present you this: draw a straight line on a piece of paper, going from the six o'clock position to the twelve o'clock position. Now draw that same line, and midway draw a 90 degree angle, left or right, doesn't matter. Now, if you add a 45 degree angle to your 90, which takes you back in line, generally, towards the twelve o'clock position, explain to me how you have attained a 135 degree angle. However, if you add the 45 degree angle to the 90 you made, heading back, generally, toward your starting point, then you have attained a 135 degree turn. Any offsets of a straight line, short of a 90 degree or greater turn in that straight line will NEVER equate to a 135 degree change of direction!!!


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## snyper1982

mccmech said:


> First off, I did read your intro. That actually makes your question more pathetic, at least to me. Let me present you this: draw a straight line on a piece of paper, going from the six o'clock position to the twelve o'clock position. Now draw that same line, and midway draw a 90 degree angle, left or right, doesn't matter. Now, if you add a 45 degree angle to your 90, which takes you back in line, generally, towards the twelve o'clock position, explain to me how you have attained a 135 degree angle. However, if you add the 45 degree angle to the 90 you made, heading back, generally, toward your starting point, then you have attained a 135 degree turn. Any offsets of a straight line, short of a 90 degree or greater turn in that straight line will NEVER equate to a 135 degree change of direction!!!



Which was my ENTIRE question... Perhaps I didn't word it clearly enough. I was simply asking if you count every change in direction, regardless of which direction it is changing towards, or only changes that as you said head back toward your starting point. I have always heard the 135 degree rule, but was never quite clear on what it meant. That is all I was asking.


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## snyper1982

_ An additional clean-out shall be provided in a drainage line for each aggregate horizontal change of direction exceeding 135 degrees (2.36 rad).

_This is the confusing part_. 

_The definition of aggregate is:formed or calculated by the combination of many separate units or items; total.

So it is one of those parts of code open to interpretation. The total degrees from starting direction, or total degress period. 

If I am reading the code, I read it as 135 total, regardless of which direction the change occurs. But what do I know.


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## mccmech

snyper1982 said:


> An additional clean-out shall be provided in a drainage line for each aggregate horizontal change of direction exceeding 135 degrees (2.36 rad).
> 
> This is the confusing part.
> 
> The definition of aggregate is:formed or calculated by the combination of many separate units or items; total.
> 
> So it is one of those parts of code open to interpretation. The total degrees from starting direction, or total degress period.
> 
> If I am reading the code, I read it as 135 total, regardless of which direction the change occurs. But what do I know.


I would suggest calling your inspector for clarification on it then. Because in my simple mind, if I'm going straight forward, even if I change direction 90 degrees, if I make another 90 degree turn back to original path, then I am still going straight forward. From a practical standpoint I would recommend any offsets you need to make be done with 45 degree fittings if possible, just for flow purposes. I still think all CAD kids should have to do field work though! ;-) ;-) Real world is just too different from the computer, especially when other mechanicals get involved in the equation.


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## ToUtahNow

mccmech said:


> I would suggest calling your inspector for clarification on it then. Because in my simple mind, if I'm going straight forward, even if I change direction 90 degrees, if I make another 90 degree turn back to original path, then I am still going straight forward. From a practical standpoint I would recommend any offsets you need to make be done with 45 degree fittings if possible, just for flow purposes. I still think all CAD kids should have to do field work though! ;-) ;-) Real world is just too different from the computer, especially when other mechanicals get involved in the equation.


That exceeds 135 degrees. Not that all inspectors would call you on it, it would require another cleanout.

Mark


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## wyrickmech

I would suggest just simply adding a clean out.


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## rjbphd

wyrickmech said:


> I would suggest just simply adding a clean out.


That's way toooo hard to do....


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## ToUtahNow

Keep in mind, this has nothing to do with flow. It is all about servicing later. Imagine running an 1 1/4" cable though 4" sewer with 180 or more change in direction.

Mark


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## mccmech

ToUtahNow said:


> Keep in mind, this has nothing to do with flow. It is all about servicing later. Imagine running an 1 1/4" cable though 4" sewer with 180 or more change in direction.
> 
> Mark


It has everything to do with flow Mark. Why do you think there are restrictions on close pattern fittings in a drainage system?


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## ToUtahNow

mccmech said:


> It has everything to do with flow Mark. Why do you think there are restrictions on close pattern fittings in a drainage system?


That's already covered under UPC 706.1. Adding cleanouts is for service.

Mark


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## GAN

Guys, "accumulated" degrees of fittings, does not make a difference if the system turns back on itself or not. If it is a vertical offset then it doesn't count. (Illinois).

Only horizontal to horizontal. So 2 -45 + 1 -90 = total of 180 degrees "change of direction", if you are looking at the full run of the main horizontal waste, not the branch runs which would be totaled separately.

Not 4 - 90's which run you in a circle being a "straight line", but cumulative is 360 degree change of direction.............:yes:


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## mccmech

GAN, thanks for your input. This topic is one that frustrates me to no end pertaining to how the code is worded. I follow your example. I will state that my code reads " any change of direction greater than 45 degrees requires a clean out". Seems pretty cut & dry to me. Why do certain codes feel the need to muddy things with "aggregate degree of change" or however it reads.


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## Best Darn Sewer

mccmech said:


> GAN, thanks for your input. This topic is one that frustrates me to no end pertaining to how the code is worded. I follow your example. I will state that my code reads " any change of direction greater than 45 degrees requires a clean out". Seems pretty cut & dry to me. Why do certain codes feel the need to muddy things with "aggregate degree of change" or however it reads.


Because it has to be written in such a way that it can not be misconstrued. That means its written very technically sound and precise. Aggregate means an accumulated amount of things. So each fitting is added up to create an "aggregate".


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## plumberN8

Seems like every underground I work on has a few fco's aren't they required at every 100' OR 135°


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## ToUtahNow

plumberN8 said:


> Seems like every underground I work on has a few fco's aren't they required at every 100' OR 135°


Correct


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## CT18

mccmech said:


> I would suggest calling your inspector for clarification on it then. Because in my simple mind, if I'm going straight forward, even if I change direction 90 degrees, if I make another 90 degree turn back to original path, then I am still going straight forward. From a practical standpoint I would recommend any offsets you need to make be done with 45 degree fittings if possible, just for flow purposes. I still think all CAD kids should have to do field work though! ;-) ;-) Real world is just too different from the computer, especially when other mechanicals get involved in the equation.


unless cad is using navis 3d clash detection there will always be a disconnect between the screen and real world. i was in the field for 15 years before getting behind the screen. i used to wonder what the heck were they thinking when i was installing, i now have a better appreciation for the design process. when we are installing in the field we see all physical objects as we are doing real world install. when behind the screen it is not that way, we just see lines. navis has starting to bring in the 3d world for cad guys which is very helpful


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## Chris3topher271

Why offset with those 45's anyways. Looks like you could take it straight and drop that second vertical line doohickey right on the trunk with a combo on its back


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## BOBBYTUCSON

GAN said:


> Guys, "accumulated" degrees of fittings, does not make a difference if the system turns back on itself or not. If it is a vertical offset then it doesn't count. (Illinois).
> 
> Only horizontal to horizontal. So 2 -45 + 1 -90 = total of 180 degrees "change of direction", if you are looking at the full run of the main horizontal waste, not the branch runs which would be totaled separately.
> 
> Not 4 - 90's which run you in a circle being a "straight line", but cumulative is 360 degree change of direction.............:yes:



Four 90's add up to the number 360 yes , but in no way shape or form will the line be circling back to starting point. It will be wrectangling back


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## GAN

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> Four 90's add up to the number 360 yes , but in no way shape or form will the line be circling back to starting point. It will be wrectangling back



"rectangle", just a figure of speech, you can set 4- 90 degree ells, in many configurations.......... Look at a rectangle and tell me it does not connect to the starting point....... a flattened circle.


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## Mykeeb33

Chris3topher271 said:


> Why offset with those 45's anyways. Looks like you could take it straight and drop that second vertical line doohickey right on the trunk with a combo on its back


It could be possible that the a footing or some other unmovable obstruction is the reason for the offset. A good cad man will 'know' how much extra info to add to the install drawings. For instance, is a particular stub up in north/south wall, or an east/west wall?


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## snyper1982

Chris3topher271 said:


> Why offset with those 45's anyways. Looks like you could take it straight and drop that second vertical line doohickey right on the trunk with a combo on its back


because of piers and footings, they aren't shown in the drawing.


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## BOBBYTUCSON

GAN said:


> "rectangle", just a figure of speech, you can set 4- 90 degree ells, in many configurations.......... Look at a rectangle and tell me it does not connect to the starting point....... a flattened circle.


True


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