# Was it the Plumber's Fault?



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I had a customer call me for a "leak from ceiling" call about a month ago.


I'm very thorough, ask tons of questions to get to the point with my diagnosis. 


I ended up opening the ceiling (already damaged in numerous spots, one of which from kids splashing out water from jacuzzi) to inspect and discover leaks.

When the ceiling was opened to determine if a previous repair to the shower drain was leaking, it revealed it was not.

When the tub was ran, no leaks.

When the shower was ran, the back wall down through a 1st floor window leaked. IOW, exterior wall. 

No water leaked down the hot or cold water lines for the faucet.

I proclaimed a tile leak due to the fact that I had the customer direct water to the wall by using a cutting board and letting the water from the shower head head the board in different positions, that way it would mimic the human body with water bouncing off. 


Here's what I found out today:


The guy who fixed/repaired the drywall?


Told me it ended up being the shower arm in the wall was hand loose.


The first person I spoke to initially on the phone, the wife... she repeated back to the remodelor, "Dunbar had asked if the shower head or arm had recently been replaced or worked on lately." 

^^^^

That is a common statement I'm shooting at people initially to find out if it has to do with the pressure side of the outgoing of the valve. It's possible, that's why I ask.

Given that I asked,

I had still proposed two other vantage points that day as to peering into the walls to see what was going on. One was pulling the round trim off the shower valve to see if there was leaking, but no water was draining down the obvious holes for the water lines.


I also offered to open the wall behind the shower valve, but that was declined. Given the ceiling was already damaged below, I did determine

1. Water entering ceiling through ductwork near tub during playful kids at the jacuzzi sitting tub

and

2. The prior repair on the shower drain was holding/working... but then again; never showed signs of ever leaking to begin with.


What this 'really' looks like is 2 plumbers got it wrong, the handyman got it right. 


Of course, the opening in the ceiling had to be replaced by someone, but it had to be replaced to begin with. 

The fellow who was there (by my recommendation) said the shower arm was loose and leaking, and it was only then that she (property owner) mentioned that even though they said no to me on the recent showerhead replacement, 

they actually "did" replace the showerhead/arm that was responsible for the leak.

I feel good that I was asking the right questions, but I don't like that the actual leak was something I didn't diagnose. 

Of course; I would not of gotten in trouble for 'checking' that shower head/arm... but I had already covered that basis asking the question, then naturally assuming that shower connections just don't start leaking all of a sudden in the wall after numerous years... and there was no shower caddy visibly hanging off of it, causing issue.

And, 

When the shower was turned on initially, no water through the floor leaking. It was only when the fellow turned the showerhead did the leak start when he twisted the showerhead and used the cutting board to deflect water in different positions around the tub/shower walls.

Customer isn't unhappy, nor did extra work/money derive from this situation. Just a different 'cause' that someone told me firsthand was not touched, which in fact it had been. And then the initial testing revealed no leaking with the shower on... and not until deflection of water occurred. 

I cannot see how anyone would expect me to go against one's first statements as a given for every symptom pointing to a wall leak. Obviously it wasn't a wall leak. 

Found this out a couple hours ago, thought it was worth sharing.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Poll


For the Poll or lack there of?

Mark


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## skitian (Apr 5, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Poll


Yes


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## Plumbducky (Jun 12, 2010)

In the customers mind, it is always the plumbers fault.

For example...snake 2nd floor tub drain, and the water heater pilot goes out.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

....


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

*Damn,*

Didn't even write it out and 2 votes my fault. 



And if you think this couldn't happen twice?



Years ago, different customer, different situation:


Customer called for a "Leak in ceiling whenever the tub is used".



I go, I test extensively and cannot get the leak to create and when I splash water against the wall, it leaks in the molded spot in the ceiling.


So, I caulk the trim thinking I fixed the problem, give the customer my handyman's name and give him the drywall repair.


Turns out that leak wasn't a shower leak, even though the customer always correlated the shower leak with their using it.

What they didn't mention is that they always used the toilet right next to it every time they also used the shower. The leak was just more pronounced/noticeable when they had showered.

That's why they tied it to the shower. 


So... even though I fixed the holes around the trim to the faucet, the handyman said when he opened the ceiling it was obvious the wax ring on the toilet had been leaking, and that most likely was what caused the leak.

They called me for a tub/shower leak through the ceiling. I tested that toiet, no leaks. I tested the vanity in that same bathroom, no leaks. When I ran the tub, no leaks. When I splashed water to the wall around the questionable/visible trim to the faucet where it met the wall,

it leaked.


Can't win them all. There was actually 2 leaks in that scenario, but it looked like I didn't diagnose it correctly. I must be trustworthy enough to be competent though; that handyman today stopped by to drag me up to a customer's home to fix a powervent water heater which is now a replacement, and a RO system replacement. That's almost a grand in earnings so I'm lovin' it.


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## plumbtastic (Apr 27, 2011)

I would say thats the plumbers fault for not finding it. Asking questions is good but consider the source of the answer.


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## Mpls Jay (Jan 1, 2011)

Plumbducky said:


> In the customers mind, it is always the plumbers fault.
> 
> For example...snake 2nd floor tub drain, and the water heater pilot goes out.


I was snaking a floor drain when the bottom blew from a heater tank and they tried to blame me!!


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

plumbtastic said:


> I would say thats the plumbers fault for not finding it. Asking questions is good but consider the source of the answer.


 
I have to say I agree... but have you purposely went against customer's words, in person, perform a task when they've told you otherwise, then create a "I don't trust you" relationship scenario?

As mentioned, I was able to get the situation to leak, but obviously a hand was put on the shower head/arm and that's how they was moving the direction of water in that bathtub, not realizing that shower arm was not supposed to move.

I wasn't in the room when the experiment was done; I was on the first floor waiting for the experiment to produce results.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Finished a small remodel and the customer asked me what happened to the hot water. I said neither did I intall the heater, hook the electrical, or go near those pipes...then I asked "was a drywall man here?" He had to think then said yes and wondered what that would have to do with it.....then he got my point....
Whenever multiple sources of leaks are involved proper routine is to check the most common things with relation to where it shows up....if they dont want a wall opened they are limiting things and you are not ultimately responsible..however, tile gaps, trim gaps, shower door leakage,behind trim pipe observation, basic drain check and shower arm should have been on the list IMO...a good working see-snake for this application.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Dunbar, You made one major mistake.... You believed the customer. I NEVER blindly believe what they tell me. I check everything. You never know what they forgot or didn't even know was done by a spouse child etc. But, You only missed it. you are not liable for the drywall.


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

As a service mechanic I can say your wrong. First mistake is that you asked a question to the customer and used their answer to narrow your results. Hands on, especially on something as vague as a leak in the ceiling that can't be seen when the ceiling is first opened up, is the only way to go. Many times I have found multiple leaks looking for a leak "when the shower is being used". Every item should be checked off your list by your tests and observations only. Customers input should be more of a compass, less of a gps.

I hope that doesn't sound to disjointed, I'm a little distracted with the lid in the tub and the realization that the caps are going to be swept...


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

In both of the scenarios, drywall was already being torn down/replaced so I didn't create extra cost to the consumer.


I narrow down statements to fit the mold of what is causing the leak, and the first scenario?


Tile was hairline cracked in the grout lines in the front corner, right where he told me he directed water to. Why wouldn't I believe him at this point and head to the shower arm? I know for a fact I would not of made that next step, ever. I even told him if he wanted to truly narrow down the exact location, tape a plastic bag over certain areas on the tile and find out what area covered stops the leaks.

I truly believed it was the tile, given the reaction to the water being deflected to the wall.

And I have revealed numerous leaks coming from shower arms in walls by the way the water trails down the hot or cold. Only way I could see that? Open the finished ceiling below. 

Both were interesting calls because I asked all the right questions, got leaks to show up by testing, (or testing and not getting leaks to show up) and finding out it was something else. 

Both times in the scenarios I mentioned, water deflected to the walls created instant leaks. I should of made a poll: do you think you would of assumed the same if you tested by water and found it leaking instantly.


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

Yes, but the point I made so poorly before I guess is that everything is checked before I start washing down the walls.

Hell, I missed a few in my life. Do I feel bad for missing it? No? But I do apologize and move on.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Sounds like an odd coincidence that caused you to come to the wrong conclusion. You didn't really do anything wrong but I'd still say technically it's your fault. As others have said I never take a customers word for anything. Yes, information a customer provides you can be helpful but it is never to be accepted as fact.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

There's no doubt; I misdiagnosed, not once, but twice. An unfortunate situation indeed. 


I thought it would be worth revealing so it helps others know how easy it can happen, even though you are going through the motions and getting a result and it is still not the right conclusion.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

This is why I could never do service, I don't have the patience to explain these situations to the HO...
They never understand...


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

We have been called out to find out why water is coming through the ceiling. If we cannot re-create the leak and the drywall is in good shape, we do not cut open the ceiling. We will caulk areas that look questionable and leave it at that. When the leak cannot be recreated, in the majority of cases, water was splashed out around the tub because the shower curtain was not in the tub completely.

In these cases, we ask the homeowner how far they would like to take diagnostics. Almost always, they will say 'let's wait and see if it happens again.' 

One of our plumbers told us about a situation from his previous job. Basically, a mystery leak in the ceiling. Tub/shower directly above. Several trips yielded nothing. What he did next was unconventional. He asked the H.O. to go downstairs and watch for a leak. He got undressed and got in the shower. The leak started back up. I cannot remember exactly what caused the leak, but it was related to standing in a particular part of the shower.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> We have been called out to find out why water is coming through the ceiling. If we cannot re-create the leak and the drywall is in good shape, we do not cut open the ceiling. We will caulk areas that look questionable and leave it at that. When the leak cannot be recreated, in the majority of cases, water was splashed out around the tub because the shower curtain was not in the tub completely.
> 
> In these cases, we ask the homeowner how far they would like to take diagnostics. Almost always, they will say 'let's wait and see if it happens again.'
> 
> One of our plumbers told us about a situation from his previous job. Basically, a mystery leak in the ceiling. Tub/shower directly above. Several trips yielded nothing. What he did next was unconventional. He asked the H.O. to go downstairs and watch for a leak. He got undressed and got in the shower. The leak started back up. I cannot remember exactly what caused the leak, but it was related to standing in a particular part of the shower.


I have heard of that. I have not run into one of them myself. In a case like that it was either a leak around the shower drain or a crack in the fiberglass or plastic that opened enough to leak when it flexed from the person standing on it.


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

Most customers do, a few don't. But I've only had two customers that weren't happy when I left, god couldn't have satisfied those two...

If your approach is appropriate you can be forgiven for anything. I was on job about a week ago replacing a pedestal with a vanity. The stops were IP with 3/8 chrome nipples out of the wall. I should've turned off the main, but I didn't, nope, not this time... so I began to loosen the supply line nut and the valve broke off in my hand. So there I am with my hand up against what's left of the chrome nipple yelling for the homeowner to shut off the water...

Then after cleaning up the water, I begin to remove the hot stop but the whole nipple turns. okay I thought, the cold was a secured wing ell... nope, to was a cp female adapter that I twisted apart. Now it was, "ma'am I have to open that wall now"

In the end (day 2) everything was great, she was happy, and I got a little tip. Humility paid off for me in the end


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> There's no doubt; I misdiagnosed, not once, but twice. An unfortunate situation indeed.
> 
> 
> I thought it would be worth revealing so it helps others know how easy it can happen, even though you are going through the motions and getting a result and it is still not the right conclusion.



I understand your pain -- And appreciate your frank admission.

I did a job 20 some years ago, a high end job for a local socialite. A great lady, I still get Christmas cards from her.

About a year after completion, water spots started to show up in the ceiling below the master bath -- These being water spots, the finger was first pointed at me -- I owned up to the issue, sight unseen, and hired a contractor to come in and remove the ceiling so we could track down the problem and correct it.

It turned out that the HVAC installer had failed to properly insulate the feeds and returns from all of the equipment he installed -- Air handlers and A/C units -- The water spots were from condensation from the feeds and return lines, not to mention the absence of proper venting.

Being the one who hired the contractor to remove the ceiling, I was stuck with the cost of repairing the ceiling. I could have probably forced the issue and stuck the HVAC contractor and the GC with those costs after a long and protracted legal fight, but at the time I was much more interested in just making the client happy.

It paid off, though -- I've plumbed 2 of her vacation homes (She put me, my crew and our families up at a 5 star hotel in Hawaii for the duration of the project) and the homes of all 6 of her children and 2 of her grandchildren since then.

Sometimes you just have to suck it up and do what's right -- Even if it isn't necessarily what's right.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

While I agree with Widds I say even if you missed it , its not because you dont know what your doing, doctors get away with a mis diagnosis, other fields do and the rationale is the complexities..which is valid..so I voted *no, ....*how to convince others is the real job. How many times do toilets leak at the seal under the tile to another location on carpet or wall and it is by something else like a shower that routinely leaks..it happens.


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## Hillside (Jan 22, 2010)

trust no one


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## PlumberDave (Jan 4, 2009)

You have to ask the questions and listen to the answers everytime. If they were Plumbers they wouldn't be calling you, keep the answers in the back of your head but you still have to find the problem. Most if not all of us in the service side have made the same mistake.
Ran into a leak showing in the ceiling under a tub. First thing in the Answers that stuck out "It is not over spray coming out of the tub when I shower." Pulled the escuhtion ran my mini cam back there it was bone dry with no trace of ever being wet. Pulled the baseboard in the closet drilled a hole ran my mini cam in there drain was tight no sign of a problem. While testing I did splash some water that made its way out of the tub and in time it dripped from the ceiling below. I tell the H O what I have found and he reams me a new one refuses to pay our diagnostic fee makes reference to my family's background Really pissed off I find out that 2 plumbers have said the same thing in the week. SO When I go back to the bathroom to get my bag I squeze on the food coloring bottle in that corner splash I bit more water Low and behold blue water from the ceiling. I get my diagnostic fee a bit of the I am sorry crap and 20 cash with a 5% kick back from the floor guy I refer. Answers are listened to just not bought.


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

In that scenario I would have checked the shower arm myself too. I use my ignition key to test shower arm leaks. 

I should get one of those high tech thingybobbers that looks in walls.

Do you really care that this was sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

As I repeat, 


On both of these jobs,



1st one, >> Had the customer actually take a shower on the first one I mentioned, after we tried the board trick. Once he got in the shower it started to leak. For all I know, he could of twisted the shower head at that point, thus disturbing the arm. 


2nd one >> Had the customer spray water against the wall, got it to leak out of the spot that was damaged.


I'd been upset if they had to spend extra money on this, but thankfully that wasn't the case. Damage was already done and my handyman caught it through further exploration. Hairline cracks were in that wall so that's where I drew my conclusion and anything else would be opening walls. 


I still cannot understand why it didn't come through the holes of the floor where hot and cold punch through. Most times, that's where it will gravitate to.


No matter what, it makes me a better service tech because 2 was 2 too many to have an incorrect diagnosis.


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## plumbtastic (Apr 27, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> As I repeat,
> 
> 
> On both of these jobs,
> ...


Sometimes it is not good to use the customer as a helper.


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## skitian (Apr 5, 2011)

I went on someone else's call back a while back for a leak on a fiberglass shower unit down through the ceiling. HO was there but he rented the house out to foreign college students studying abroad. This round of students was Russian chicks. I'm spray the trim on this shower every way you can imagine, testing everything thoroughly, but cannot make it leak. I turned to the HO and said, jokingly, it must be something their doing, we're just gonna have to get one of them to take a shower. He knew I was kidding but he still went and woke the one up that was there and asked her to take a shower. Sure enough when I heard her ring out her hair water started leaking through the trim. While I was sealing it up and cleaning up, she was walking around in just a t-shirt, smokin hot Russian woman, and she wasn't shy about it either.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

plumbtastic said:


> Sometimes it is not good to use the customer as a helper.


 
I do it all the time, especially when I need someone to get in the shower, stand on those fiberglass floors and see if there's a separation gap occurring between tile and pan, spider cracks opening up when depressed, separation of drain assembly from pan.

I'm a one man operation so there is no second worker in the mix.

I do not take showers at my customer's homes.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I have asked the home owner to give assistance in the past. Dunbar kudos for admitting a mistake was made.
Get all the information first from the homeowner. Then explain your process and steps and then perform those steps. There is never a time to say the customer said this as an excuse for not checking.
The good thing we are only human and are prone to make mistakes. Sometimes we need to be humbled to bring ourselves back to reality.


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## Mega Smash (Oct 9, 2009)

Sometimes the only way to get to the solution is to ask (what may be) stupid questions.

I had a call once where the HO was complaining of a leak from the ground floor powder room into the basement. There is a puddle near the stack.

Flush the toilet - no leaks

Run a few sinkfuls of water down - no leak

Unfinished basement, so I can see where the water puddle was, and where the drips are coming from. Do a little flashlight investigation, and the water is dripping from an air duct.

Could it be condensation building up so much that it drips out of the duct?

Above the duct is the toilet flange and elbow. - Both dry.

"Have you had a toilet overflow recently?"

We have a bingo - toilet overflows, spills into floor register, runs down duct, and out of a joint.

Sometimes you've got to be more of a detective than a plumber.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I've had customers get upset with me by asking too many questions. 

But, in that same stroke, I've had customers come back to me after calling others because I kept striking those in-depth questions like I knew wtf I was talking about.


On saturdays when the service calls come in I can instantly take over a conversation when the customer starts off by saying "I/my husband was working on our tub/shower faucet and now it is le-***x" because I short question the customer, they say "in the wall" and it's a delta.


Then I give a synopsis, then let them know that if you call other plumbers that we will be the only one that can manage that repair without creating a larger hole in the wall, or access to the backside, getting that valve repaired *looking like there was never an accident to begin with.*

*^^^^^*

*That means a ton to the ones writing the check. *


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## Mega Smash (Oct 9, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I've had customers get upset with me by asking too many questions.


If you don't ask, then you gotta assume...

... and you know what they say about assuming.


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

So I got one for all you service plumbers out there...
Being the 13 and a Friday I knew it wasn't going to be a good day...

Went on a call "disposal not working" and I do all the quick checks, hit the reset button check the breaker, nothing. Ask the age if the house, 15 yrs. and homeowner says they've had to reset the disposal several times this year...
Easy replace the disposal...

Well that wasn't it...
Checked the switch, ahhhh that's bad.
Now I've worked on many a disposal and only once in the 4 yrs have I come across a bad switch, but the disposal was brand spanking ethylene out of the box new (replaced it a week prior and it was working when I left). Old house, checked the switch, easy...

Only thing that I noticed on this repair was that this particular switch it was spring loaded to off...
First time seeing something like that, kinda had me wondering though....

So how many of you all check the switch before replacing a disposal?

Just want to see how far I'm off on this...


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Here it is easy to test for power. Most of the dsposals have a pig tail and plug into a receptacle. Plug in ext. cord in a different receptacle and check
I do this when I hear no noise,rusted out disposal no need to test for a bad disposal ,replace it before a cutter blows out the top and hits the customer in the head.


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## plumbtastic (Apr 27, 2011)

We always check with a volt meter and if the unit will run we check amp draw. The issue with using the existing pigtail is it may not be connected to the disposal properly.


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## shakeyglenn68 (Dec 29, 2010)

Dunbar I work Maintenance on apartments. When ever I have a leak called in thats coming from the ceiling I carry a questionnaire sheet with me. (Got this from my former employer) After checking each question on the list and having the tenant sign it, I inspect what most likely is causing the problem. (Former employer required it to prevent mis-diagnoses of problems and in the event of what you had prevents customer from claiming it was plumbers fault!) I voted no. It was an after the fact matter, if HO allowed for you to change the shower head/rod then it wouldn't of occurred, the same as allowed for you to inspect the wall there (preventing you from diagnosing the problem!).

As to G/d checking for power, a Ground Fault Tester works great plug it in, if there is power it will light up, also will tell you if wired reverse, ground dropped, and can test the ground fault as well.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

*Here's a good one that happened tonight*

Last call, main drain call for "water showing up at base of stack" and no, no water backing up in the floor drain.

I get there, almost feel like I'm stealing but I go with what the customer tells me to do, clear the drain to see if that stops the water from showing up.


Before we even get a chance to even flush the toilets upstairs...


"tink!" 


When I tightened the cap back in, apparently either the test tee or the cap itself, the specs are off to where the cap is travelling so far into the fitting that it buried out and put a crack in the actual tee itself, perfectly around the span of threads.

I found my leak. I had put my finger around the 6 o'clock position to see if the cap was leaking before I even started, dry.

But it was cracked obviously a little further back. Recently as of the last 5 weeks, this basement had been stick framed up and drywalled, and sometimes these framers will kick slam those bottom plates in to get the wall level, hitting these PVC drains like they don't care. 

I've seen them sheared off flush with the floor, as well as cracked longways from hard hits.

If I was to guess, someone at sometime recently hit that cleanout plug while removing contents or during construction, possibly causing the crack. 

Either that or like I mentioned above, specs were off and over time the tension on the cap eventually caused the fitting to finally give. 

I'm going back tomorrow to rework a new test tee into that stack, call it good.

Glad to of found the leak as it was hiding itself well in a drywalled wall with little access.

It jobs like these that I've mentioned that make us better service plumbers... no doubt.


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## ap plumbing (Nov 9, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I have to say I agree... but have you purposely went against customer's words, in person, perform a task when they've told you otherwise, then create a "I don't trust you" relationship scenario?
> 
> As mentioned, I was able to get the situation to leak, but obviously a hand was put on the shower head/arm and that's how they was moving the direction of water in that bathtub, not realizing that shower arm was not supposed to move.
> 
> I wasn't in the room when the experiment was done; I was on the first floor waiting for the experiment to produce results.


 I usually, I f I'am able too see is I follow the water stains,then u kno more or less where the water could be leaking from.


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## ap plumbing (Nov 9, 2010)

If it doesn't leak in front of me I usually won't do anything I just try to explain to the customer that ,what it might be and like u said ask question and if there water stains show them the stains and that I might need to open behind the tub to be sure of the problem, and if they don't let you its not ur fault. thats like fixing a car without popping the hood.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

ap plumbing said:


> ....thats like fixing a car without popping the hood.


Great illustration!


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## PlumbersSanJose (May 22, 2011)

In the mind of the customer it is always the plumbers fault. You can't really trust what customers say about a job. Their first concern is cost, and contractors are on a need to know basis. If it is going to cost money to inspect, the plumber doesn't need to know. In this particular case I would have used my x-ray vision to determine the cost of the leak. I find that using it keeps costs down for the homeowner and limits my liability.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

PlumbersSanJose said:


> In the mind of the customer it is always the plumbers fault. You can't really trust what customers say about a job. Their first concern is cost, and contractors are on a need to know basis. If it is going to cost money to inspect, the plumber doesn't need to know. In this particular case I would have used my x-ray vision to determine the cost of the leak. I find that using it keeps costs down for the homeowner and limits my liability.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

*Had a callback today*

Which I rarely get. 

The faucet I replaced yesterday (delta for delta) was fine; all my connections were solid, not leaking.


What happened was a 90 that was corroded heavily and probably soft lead solder from years ago started leaking from disturbing it in the wall.


The neighborhood has extremely high water pressure and that combined with old solder joints and a plumber disturbing the water lines to get a faucet in was a perfect combination to create a leak.


Customer woke up at 8am, went into the kitchen and thought the dog let loose on the floor. 

Then she looked up, saw the leaking originating directly below where I installed the faucet. 

There was an opening in the closet that didn't expose the faucet I was working on but you could get to the defective joint quite easily. 

I fixed it, didn't charge (of course) and offered a claim number to the customer if she felt they needed to file a damage loss.


She was a registered nurse, I explained the risks I take working on old plumbing in homes over 100 years old and it's just part of the equation that sometimes I'll find it before I leave, sometimes I don't... and this was one of those times I didn't.

Rolled the connection with 45's and made easy work of the repair. Damage was minimal downstairs, if any. 


Lead solder is super soft... you barely move those connections and they'll leak most times. This one looked like it had leaked on and off for years and if I would of known it existed I would of taken care of it yesterday. 


Content customer as the problem is resolved and I explained that you don't need that type of connection in your home anyway.


Some plumbers would of charged, I'm one who won't knowing that even though I didn't make that a bad connection, I own it because it wasn't leaking before I started. 

You win some, you lose some and I'm sure I got some embedded value for resolving the issue promptly without more money leaving their pockets.


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## Radium (Dec 25, 2010)

Last Friday I got a call to a resort. The carpets are soaked come check it out. The boiler had close to 30 psi going into it. So I changed the regulator. Next day get a call, it happened again. SO I change the t&p. Meanwhile I have been testing trying to get something to blow off without touching any of the old gate valves.
Next day got a call again, finally, found it, it was the t and p on the propane hwt. I charged for it too. They still haven't paid me the five grand from last month.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Radium said:


> Last Friday I got a call to a resort. The carpets are soaked come check it out. The boiler had close to 30 psi going into it. So I changed the regulator. Next day get a call, it happened again. SO I change the t&p. Meanwhile I have been testing trying to get something to blow off without touching any of the old gate valves.
> Next day got a call again, finally, found it, it was the t and p on the propane hwt. I charged for it too. *They still haven't paid me the five grand from last month*.





Holy moly!!! I'd be






in worry about getting my money.


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## Radium (Dec 25, 2010)

If they don't pay, it'll be easy to rip out all the underground gas lines I did, without anyone noticing. But their loaded, and it's always the receptionists fault. I can't wait to change out that pice of junk boiler, for a combi unit. 12 grand please.


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## HOMER (Jun 5, 2011)

*Re: The tub leak*

First let me say :
I have mis-diagnosed my share of plumbing and heating problems.
just adding my 2 cents.


these suggestions would not have helped in your case,
but no one mentioned these.
with out getting the tub to tile seal wet :
fill the tub to the overflow,then saturate the overflow plate.
Also, draining water with the tub filled will show way more drain leaks than just running water through the drain.
this test is especially effective when testing your tubular drains at the kitchen sink.
fill both sides of the sink and drain at the same time.
Spots defects in the installation quickly.
can take a few minutes to fill the sinks/tub if volume isn't too good.

this tip may have helped :
remove the tub spout and shower arm and cap.
turn shower on and test.

I have found many leaks using these.

Take the high road if possible.
I installed a glass sink for a customer.
leak free,hand tight.
two weeks later the cust tells me the sink broke on its own.
Bit the bullet,
special ordered $350.00 st thomas creations glass sink,installed it 6 weeks later at no cost to the customer.
that customer started his own realty and management company and now sends me a bunch of work and private clients.
not saying that every complaining customer will turn into a cash source .

just pays to protect your reputation(most of the time anyways)

homer says D"OH


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## 19jacobpratt90 (Jun 13, 2011)

i put its your fault... but now i dont know lol... i guess the thing to take from this is get one of those cool sheets made up with all the questions you normally ask on a service call and get the customer to sign off on it that way you can say i diagnosed it properly with the information you gave me. that way the fact that the HO lied or forgot or whatever doesnt reflect back so negatively on you and your company


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## Henderson (Jun 13, 2011)

*Title: Please explain*

I'm trying real hard not to look like the guy they are looking for on the left.

Is what the plumber's fault? Is it your fault you did not find the leak, or is it your fault it caused more damage, or what? Are you asking if you can get sued for malpractice that caused the fatal death of the house?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Henderson said:


> I'm trying real hard not to look like the guy they are looking for on the left.
> 
> Is what the plumber's fault? Is it your fault you did not find the leak, or is it your fault it caused more damage, or what? Are you asking if you can get sued for malpractice that caused the fatal death of the house?


 

I was asking "was it the plumber's fault that the customer gave inaccurate information that had me ask varying questions, but not enough to hit the exact cause of the leaking.


On both jobs, the damage caused by water was not a result of plumber misdiagnosis... it was the 'resolution' that was different that corrected the problem, and that came by a handyman that I sent to do drywall repair on both.

Both in this case was a cheaper diagnosis than both (I thought) were tile wall reworks. 

And, in both cases the customers were relieved of the lesser costs.


Hope that answers your question.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

He will have to read it as a guest Dunbar, he just got banned in another thread.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> He will have to read it as a guest Dunbar, he just got banned in another thread.


 



I think his alter ego joshua something or another may have gotten banned as well. Then a charaecter calling himself 'yes' showed up at the same party....hmmmm....


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