# Man, you gotta love these calls!!!



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Came off of vacation with a lot of calls already on the books for this week. Went to my 12:00 pm yesterday (it was 1:15 :whistling2. The description was "slow drain and a running toilet". So I get there and the slow drain and the running toilet turns into: 1 lav pop up adjustment $99, 1 lav pop up hair clog removed $99, 2 running toilets and 2 water dist sys leaks tell me there is a pressure problem so I check and sure enough it's high so I replace the prv $319, the basement had been finished post new con and they teed a wall right over 1/2 of the prv creating access issues so I added $149 for limited access, one of the water leaks was in a shower wall just above the 2 handle shower valve which looked like it was for a mobile home (might have been the crappiest piece of junk I've ever seen) so I suggested that although I can stop the leak without replacing the faucet this might be a good time to consider replacing it so the ho approves the shower faucet I have on my truck and authorizes replacement $654, oh yeah there was another access charge of $149 associated with hunting down the water dist leaks which revealed 2 leaks. One will be taken care of with the faucet replacement the other is directly above the shower $199. The toilets still ran after prv replacement and I had already quoted $199 for minor tank rebuilds but had also pointed out that although they were probably going to work fine with simply the minor tank rebuilds, they were old toilets that used a lot of water (3.5 gal per) and that he might consider replacing them with Totos. He thought that was a good idea and added a third toilet to the list at $577 each or $1731.

I don't think I left anything out. My slow drain ($99) and running toilet ($199) turned into $3471.00 just by being thorough and by *OFFERING OPTIONS*. When I left yesterday the last thing he said was "oh yeah, one more thing, what would it take to get water supplied to my refrigerator?". It's on the opposite side of the kitchen from the ks and there is a finished basement with sheet rock ceiling underneath the kitchen .

Now I know that none of you have ever met me face to face or have talked to me on the phone (except for 3kings), but I assure you I am not a high pressure guy and I am rather slow of speech. I am not beautiful, nor especially compelling or persuasive but I am learning the secret of sales. You don't have to twist anybodys arm, you don't have to lie, cheat, or steal. *SIMPLY OFFER THEM OPTIONS!!!* Just lay it out there and let them choose. Whenever possible show them what you are offering, either the actual item (faucet, etc.) or in a manufacturers catalog or on a website or whatever. I can repair it for this, or I can replace it with standard grade for this, or I can replace it with deluxe grade for this. Not everyone will bite but never assume who will and who won't because *YOU DON'T KNOW WHO WILL OR WHO WON'T.*


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

$99 to remove hair from a pop-up...damn, you're a good salesman!

Don't you have discounted tasks for additional work? I couldn't charge that much for each task on a multi-task job. If someone called me out to ONLY do one thing, then they get full task price, but every additional task is discounted while I am there...pop-up hair plug takes 5 minutes, so I don't charge much, sometimes I just write 'no-charge' on the ticket if its a real good customer.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

In my opinion that is one of the nastiest, most disgusting jobs in all of plumbing. I ain't playing in that for free. The only reason it's not more is that it is normally a pretty quick operation.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> In my opinion that is one of the nastiest, most disgusting jobs in all of plumbing. I ain't playing in that for free. The only reason it's not more is that it is normally a pretty quick operation.


Invest in a pop gun and you don't have to manually clean pop ups.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

P.S. the next time you do one, be sure and show the ho what you pull out of there. Put it on a towel or tp or whatever and hold up as close to that invisible line marking no mans land between two people as you dare go. If they had been complaining about the price they won't anymore.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

I have a grabber tool that makes it extremely easy...not disgusting or difficult at all to me.

Your price is fine with me.  I believe in free enterprise. You could charge $9999 for all I care. I am just impressed, maybe I should charge more for that stuff...


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Invest in a pop gun and you don't have to manually clean pop ups.


Nope. When they see it, they appreciate me more. As a service plumber I have become somewhat desensitized to many sights and smells, so if it is revolting to me I can really only imagine what it is like for the ho but judging from their reaction it seems pretty clear that even if they weren't before they are certainly glad they called me after seeing it. I believe this has a subconscious attachment to all plumbing (I of course can't prove this) which means that they are less likely to attempt any other plumbing task in the future.


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## Song Dog (Jun 12, 2008)

Smells, That is down right AWESOME! Options, options, options, gotta love options:thumbsup:

GOOD JOB:thumbup: And the cool thing, they like ya and will call you back.

In Christ,

Song Dog


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I pulled baby wipes off an ejector float today and held them up to the renter, I was gloved off course. I told her it's baby wipes. She says no, it's toilet paper. I told her toilet paper dissolves, this can barely be pulled apart. Her unwed daughter just popped a frog a month ago, I guarentee she's flushing baby wipes:furious: I actually called it before I got there. I my partner there June 10 to replace the pump. he mentioned the daughter being ready to pop. I told the landlord on my way over it's gonna be baby wipes. sure enough, it was. The best part is the renter lying to my face, and implying it's our fault. I saved the butt wipes, they are in a bucket and if I gotta introduce 'em as evidence to Judge Judy, I will:thumbup:


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Nice job on selling. :thumbsup:


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## threaderman (Jun 17, 2008)

No offense ,but I can't believe someone would pay that much.I mean I believe it,but what a racket.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

service guy said:


> $99 to remove hair from a pop-up...damn, you're a good salesman!
> 
> Don't you have discounted tasks for additional work? I couldn't charge that much for each task on a multi-task job. If someone called me out to ONLY do one thing, then they get full task price, but every additional task is discounted while I am there...pop-up hair plug takes 5 minutes, so I don't charge much, sometimes I just write 'no-charge' on the ticket if its a real good customer.


Sorry I just now caught the second half of your post. 

Occasionally I will discount additional work it just depends on what it is and what frame of mind I am in at the time. Whether or not it is an existing client or a little old lady on a fixed income will influence this decision as well. In general however, I don't discount secondary jobs for several reasons: the first being that it seems like every time I do I run into some sort of problem with the task so that it takes much longer than it ordinarily would, second, my pricing system really does not seem to be overly generous in time allocation for a given task (or maybe I'm just slow) which means I really don't seem to have that much room to discount, and third is, next time you go to the steak house ask them if you can have your wife's steak for 1/2 price since you are paying full price for yours and see what they say.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Our rates keep climbing as the price of fuel goes up. We use to be one of the cheapest in town, which we probly still are but we are charging 95$ 1hr plus a 10$ extra first hour truck charge.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

threaderman said:


> No offense ,but I can't believe someone would pay that much.I mean I believe it,but what a racket.


I am not offended by my pricing but do I sense that you might be?

Was "racket" the exact word you meant to use? Racket being a derivative of racketeer? 

The definition of racketeer being: one who extorts money or advantages by threats of violence, by blackmail, or by unlawful interferrance with business or employment.

I'm thinking that this is not exactly what you meant but just in case it was let me assure you that no racketeering took place. I simply quoted the man my price to perform these plumbing tasks and he authorized by his signature this work to be done.

How much should a plumber be "allowed" to charge. I think that the answer is, whatever someone is willing to pay. If a customer is willing to pay $200 for something and you only charge them $100, who has suffered loss? The answer is you have.

This turned out to be a pretty good sales day for me but what I didn't post was the fact that my first call of the day was one in which I quoted $1775.00 for the installation of the following ho provided faucets: (2) 4" centerset lav faucets, (2) 8" widespread lav faucets, and (1) roman tub filler on a tub that had a 3 step cultured marble staircase facade. I also quoted $2258.00 for the same installation with me providing similar faucetry. The lady was quite gracious but had not expected this amount and so I left with my service call charge ($59.00) only. She had had the idea that it would run about $1000.00 for the installation of these 5 faucets :no:. Not by me. She was quite nice about everything she just was not prepared for what I told her. She thoroughly understood the value of my warranties on my faucets and the quality of those faucets since: the first of the boxes she provided produced when opened a 4" centerset lav faucet by PricePfister with a crushed shut ss flex supply integral to the valve body and because I subsequently brought in my faucet which she was able to handle and compare side by side with the defective home depot model. This I believe was a case that unfortunately as it often does came down to price. I think she would have liked to do business with me but she either couldn't or wouldn't handle my price. Sometimes that's just how it is but my pricing is what it is and if I start monkeying around and negotiating then every client I do that with knows that my "price" is not really the real price. It's Pandora's box and I'm not opening it.


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## Song Dog (Jun 12, 2008)

Smells, do you provide financing? Think she would have went ahead if you offered it?

In Christ,

Song Dog


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

LMFAO @ popped a frog. I am rolling over here. :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> next time you go to the steak house ask them if you can have your wife's steak for 1/2 price since you are paying full price for yours and see what they say.


You know as well as I , that is a really poor analogy. Plumbing service is VERY different than restaurant business. For one thing, the restaurants don't come to your house to do work...

Sorry, but that argument sucks.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Here's my example. A customer who calls me to ONLY repair a toilet is a completely different scenario than a customer who has me repair the toilet while I am already there doing something else.

In scenario A, I have to drive out to the house before I can do the repair, it might take me a total time of one hour.

In scenario B, I simply have to do it, my tools and parts are already there and so am I....it might take me 15 minutes to do the toilet repair.

So tell me, why should customer B get charged the same as customer A for the toilet repair?

Your steak analogy doesn't apply at all...


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

If you have a non-refundable trip charge, then nevermind...you are already billing for the trip out there separately so then it makes sense to have all your prices based on being already there.


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

service guy said:


> I have a grabber tool that makes it extremely easy...not disgusting or difficult at all to me.
> 
> Your price is fine with me. I believe in free enterprise. You could charge $9999 for all I care. I am just impressed, maybe I should charge more for that stuff...


*I'm curious*
*If you get a call for a stopped vanity and thats all it is, what do you charge then?*


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *I'm curious*
> *If you get a call for a stopped vanity and thats all it is, what do you charge then?*


The same as everything else...the first task includes a charge for the trip out. The secondary tasks do not.
In this case I charge $95 for JUST a hair stoppage. But if I was doing a list of things, then the hair stoppage would be much less.


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## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

Smells - Good job on presenting options! I'm actually jealous - if we charged like that, we would go out of business. There is another plumbing contractor in my town who charges that way and he is on his way out the door. We have tremendous repeat and referral business.

Service Guy - we do the same thing with pricing.

Plumberman - From personal experience, there is little glory in being the cheapest.
We were the cheapest a few years ago, did a lot of "awww, they are on a fixed income, they can't afford it, single mother" etc. When times were slow, that 'charity' work didn't put food on the table and we had to feed the business. We are very fair (close to the same prices you are charging), but the numbers are showing we need to raise our prices. In my opinion, we are the best plumbing company in town (skilled tradesman, excellent customer service, response time, pricing etc), so our pricing needs to reflect that. I am sorry some can not afford us, but neither can we afford to work for them. We still make exceptions, bigger hearts than brains at times. The average plumbing shop nationwide costs between $100 - $175/hr to operate. Didn't believe it until I actually ran our numbers considering real billable hours. It was an eye opener. I believe I found the calculator on upfrontprice.com


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## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

Low prices - double edged sword. Led to more calls from people looking for breaks and wanting deals. Just the type of customer we didn't want.


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

Plumbcrazy said:


> Low prices - double edged sword. Led to more calls from people looking for breaks and wanting deals. Just the type of customer we didn't want.


*Absolutely 150% CORRECT.*

*I sent my first 6 months in business fumbling with prices and struggling to make overhead.*
*After that I stopped worrying about losing jobs when I added the figures and realized I was better off going out of business than working to break even or at a loss.*
*I STILL get calls from some of those people expecting me to cut prices...I "scare" them off with better rates now.*


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

Plumbcrazy said:


> Smells - Good job on presenting options! I'm actually jealous - if we charged like that, we would go out of business. *There is another plumbing contractor in my town who charges that way and he is on his way out the door. We have tremendous repeat and referral business.*
> 
> Service Guy - we do the same thing with pricing.
> 
> ...


*There are two prevalent business models, with shades of gray between.*

*- The HUGE yellow page ads that "stick it" to the homeowners for a one time big profit, but seldom get repeat business.*
*The ad budget is huge, but then, the profits are too.*

*- The other is what seems to be more common here, those of us who try to be reasonable and SLOWLY build a list of repeat customers and referrals at a lower profit with a longterm goal.*

*The FIRST (edited, I typo'd "second") model fails in smaller area's with lower population densities....don't try it if you aren't in a major metro area.*

*The second model is unfortunately more likely to fail for reasons you mention.*
*Even when business is booming there has to be a "nest egg" for the slower times, it's NOT a luxury, it's not an extravagance to have money in the bank in reserve. *
*Some of us make the mistake of dropping prices during the busier periods.*

*I've been considering the first model in regard to maybe incorporating SOME of the concept into my own business.*
*The "one hit wonder" as I call it.*
*There are the majority of us who feel it's immoral to overcharge, but the other side of that story is considering the morality of providing for your family and ensuring you have enough to do so in the long-run.*

*I've taken note of "Smellslike$$" mention of pricing, also of the reactions he gets here.*

*I don't know him from Adam, he could be a crabby ogre that intimidates one time customers into paying what he demands .... or he could be smart enough to show his customers the value of his workmanship, as well as warranty his work.*

*The suspicion I have is that he's on his way up the food chain.*

*Though morality and ethics are commendable, you have to seperate them from professionalism to run a business.*


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## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

*GREAT JOB! **SMELLS*. Aready planning that next vacation.:thumbsup:


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Interesting post grumpy.

I am somewhere between the two models you mention. I have a ton of repeat business and referrals happening already and I am not the highest priced in town. (2nd model)

However, I also have a relatively expensive yellowpage campaign going and my pricing is probably in the top 10% or 20% of plumbers in this area. (1st model)

I guess I am both! Which means someday I'll be loaded and retire early.:thumbup:


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

*Back on topic. Smellymoney is absolutely correct that offering options to customers is the BEST way to make maximum profit in this business. I always laugh when plumbers complain about 'while you're here' people.
I WISH EVERY CUSTOMER WAS LIKE THAT! THEN WE'D ALL BE MAKING A TON OF DOUGH LIKE IN SMELLS EXAMPLE. I tell every customer that I encourage extra work while I am there and it saves them money by not having to pay for another trip charge in the future. Smells reminded me that I need to focus n that more.*:thumbsup:


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## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

Amen Grumpy! )


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

Maybe it's me being my own enemy again, but I don't think I can get the kind of money Smells gets in my area. I might get one or two to bite but that's about it. 

Some of my prices may be in line with his, but I just don't find people who want to do very many tasks at once.

If the HO is watching me and sees that it takes me about five minutes to pull a wad of hair from a basin drain, they're going to feel ripped off over the $99 price.

OTOH - there are the big new companies in the neighboring cities with the fancy trucks and the employment guarantees and they seem to stay busy. I am still learning.

As to the "trip charge" - my first task costs about $40 more than the rest of the tasks and that pays me to get there. Some are charging more like $79 for that. The price book would have far fewer pages if I didn't have secondary prices for everything. I suppose that's another way to set it up - a trip fee that you get in any circumstances and a single price for everything (or two, if you count the service contract price).


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Plumbcrazy said:


> Smells - Good job on presenting options! I'm actually jealous - if we charged like that, we would go out of business. There is another plumbing contractor in my town who charges that way and he is on his way out the door. We have tremendous repeat and referral business.
> 
> How do you mean?
> 
> Is the other plumbing contractor "on his way out the door" because he charges too much or because he gives lousy service? Are you possibly referring to ARS? When I was in town I passed their shop on Hwy 17 and saw about 10 vans parked out front.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *There are two prevalent business models, with shades of gray between.*
> 
> *- The HUGE yellow page ads that "stick it" to the homeowners for a one time big profit, but seldom get repeat business.*
> *The ad budget is huge, but then, the profits are too.*
> ...



I have only been tracking my calls for about 30 months but in that time, every single month, our largest source of revenue has been repeat business from clients and our second largest source of revenue, with the exception of only 2 months, has been referrals.

I do not believe that morality and ethics are mutually exclusive of professionalism or right pricing. If I am the most expensive plumber in my town (btw I'm not) but my pricing is absolutely consistent and everything is declared up front before any work is done so that the customer has every opportunity to say no, and of course there must be no lying or even bending of the facts, and we deliver everything we promise and more, how can we possibly be considered immoral simply because it costs a lot or because Billy Bob will do it for 1/2 what we will. We are striving for a level of excellence that raises us above our competitors. To achieve this goal it costs us more to operate than it does for Billy Bob. Consequently we charge more than he does. We are absolutely commited to making a fair profit and we incorporate profit into *EVERYTHING* we do whether it's installing a $5000.00 tankless unit or taking out the office trash. 

If people didn't like what we are doing they would not continue to call us again and again. We do not have this thing all figured out but we are constantly learning and trying to implement what works and discard what does not work. I am not wealthy (yet), I live in a 64 year old, 1800 sq. ft. house, my wife drives a 1999 Dodge Grand Caravan with 200k miles on it. I do not even own a personal vehicle. The thing is though we are making progress and revenue as well as personal income have nearly tripled in 3 years. I can tell you this, the days of me hoping I can get someone to "give me" $100 per hour for my plumbing skills are long gone, I'm not going back. I always want to be fair in all my dealings but I won't leave myself or my family out of that equation anymore.

I've pointed this out before but here it is again: If you charge say $150 per hour and can bill 8 hours a day (which you can't) that's $6000 per week times 50 weeks is 300k gross revenue for the year. If you make 20% profit (not unreasonable by anybody's estimation I would hope) then that means you made a whopping 60k pre tax dollars for running your business for an entire year. After you pay Uncle Sam you're probably down to around 48k or so. $48,000 profit for the entire year. Does that really sound excessive to *ANYBODY?*


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

I am with you smells. I am in this to make money period. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I am easily in the top 10-20% pricing of plumbers in this town and *yet I get tons of repeat business referrals, like you.*

Keep it up, I know I am constantly trying to get bigger tickets and more add-ons per call. Its a must to boost profits.


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## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

Smells - ARS is doing poorly. They are advertising for plumbers because plumbers aren't getting 8 hours. Their reputation precedes them.

The company I was referring to is a PSI company. Plumbers are barely qualified. Service is excellent, but quality is very low. Everything is replace, replace, replace because their so called plumbers cannot repair. 

I think you have it right. Again, just jealous as there are too many one shop guys selling themselves short working for mere wages. You are entitled to a profit and you are right about the family thing! If you have great repeat / referral business - YOU ARE DOING IT RIGHT! 

I now believe if no one objects to your price, than you are too cheap.

Profit is not a dirty word - business exists for the purpose of making a profit. If you are making just wages, you are doing yourself a disservice as well as a disservice to the plumbing industry.

You go Smells!!! )


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

Herk said:


> *Maybe it's me being my own enemy again, but I don't think I can get the kind of money Smells gets in my area.* I might get one or two to bite but that's about it.
> 
> Some of my prices may be in line with his, but I just don't find people who want to do very many tasks at once.
> 
> ...


*I'd like to think you're wrong, I certainly hope so.*
*I've heard you on other forums, it kills me to hear it.*
*You're probably right, but I can't help but wonder if much of what you beleive is based on what customers tell you. *
*I only say this because I fall into that trap myself.*

*It's unavoidable, bobody wants to pay a reasonable rate, I used to live in fear of losing regulars or scaring away business with prices until it finally occured to me that I was gonna go under anyway if things didn't change.*
*I was going to loose my shirt if I didn't go up, so I went up.*
*Strangely enough the calls still came, they still do.*

*People bluff, whatever it takes to shave the price, working alone you start to buy into it...at least I do.*

*I have to remind myself what an old timer told me..."if people aren't complaining about the price, then it's too low".*


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## Song Dog (Jun 12, 2008)

I went to a house awhile back for hardly any pressure at the kitchen sink cold side. While I had the ho take me to the basement to see the water system, I noticed galv. Looked over the situation and showed him what it would cost him, If I would do what a previous plumber he had there was going to do. Then I proceeded to tell him that I truly don't believe it would cure his problem and I could not guarantee it. He completly understood.
As I noticed, and brought to his attention his drain lines were leaking and that electical tape to hold it together:laughing: is only going to cause him problems.
Option #1 initial repair (no guarantee w/ doubtable cure) $369
Option #2 Whole House repipe w/ guarantees $2993
Option #3 New Water Heater w/ guarantees $899
Option #4 Whole House filter w/ guarantees $276
He chose Options 2-3-4
Then I noticed after I had drain lines cut apart, there was a constant stream of water (stool). I informed him of that and I showed him what it would be
Option #5 Total rebuild (old stool)w/ guarantees $259
Then he asks me to check other
Option #6 Fill valve with flapper w/ guarantees $189
Option #7 2 New stools w/ guarantees ( shut offs and suplies) $692
He chose Option #7
After getting everything up an running, I inspected everything and notices and S trap leaking between the floor to basement (cracked)
Option #8 Change out S trap w/ guarantees $113
He wanted that one to.
So I have gave him what can be done with options he can choose and then he picked what he wanted. He is HAPPY. He is a manager at Arbys and gave me a free lunch a couple weeks later. 
His ticket was a total of $4973

As a side note. The upatairs stool had a Spider Man sticker and a blue seat on it. His youngest was SO worried about loosing his Spider Man stool. I asked his boy, would you like for me to get your sticker off and put the blue seat on your new stool. He was excited and his Dad had a big smile. So thats what I did.

This is just to mention how important options are and what ho sees in value. Actually I really didn't sell anything just gave him choices and he choose which one he wanted. When I 1st got into flat rate, I was terrified and really didnt want to be a salesman again. Now, I love flat rate and its not really selling, but in a way it is.

In Christ,

Song Dog


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> [/color]
> 
> I have only been tracking my calls for about 30 months but in that time, every single month, our largest source of revenue has been repeat business from clients and our second largest source of revenue, with the exception of only 2 months, has been referrals............................
> 
> ...........................I've pointed this out before but here it is again: If you charge say $150 per hour and can bill 8 hours a day (which you can't) that's $6000 per week times 50 weeks is 300k gross revenue for the year. If you make 20% profit (not unreasonable by anybody's estimation I would hope) then that means you made a whopping 60k pre tax dollars for running your business for an entire year. After you pay Uncle Sam you're probably down to around 48k or so. $48,000 profit for the entire year. Does that really sound excessive to *ANYBODY?*


*I truncated your post to save space...I agree with all of it.*

*My guess is as soon as you start your ad this fall you skyrocket...I have to assume you researched the area it covers and the competition.*


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Great story, songdog. Sales can be rewarding, even if many plumbers act like its a dirty word.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *I'd like to think you're wrong, I certainly hope so.*
> *I've heard you on other forums, it kills me to hear it.*
> *You're probably right, but I can't help but wonder if much of what you beleive is based on what customers tell you. *
> *I only say this because I fall into that trap myself.*


I'd like to think I was wrong. But taking these things into consideration, I think that it's just really tough to be a plumber in this area:

1. Seven years ago, I used to be the 'guy to get,' and the phone was ringing off the hook. I had to turn down 1/3 of the calls I got, which was nice - I could avoid crawling under trailers.

2. Other companies have said they don't want to work here.

3. The only difference between me and other plumbers in the area is that they're still T&M and far too cheap.

4. As the economy worsens, it seems that the calls are becoming even fewer. 

5. I do a good job. I care about the results. It's obvious to me that others don't. It's just 'get in, get out, get the money.'

6. I know the others are busier than I am.

To me, that makes it all about the money. 

Right now, I think it's a bit of a slump. It's been really hot and I like to blame the slower times on the weather. I'm in the process of doing some marketing and that may be a serious impediment to getting work. So far as I know the other plumbers in the area aren't doing much in the way of marketing, either. I never see their names anywhere except the side of their trucks. I'm the only plumber in this area except for Mr. Rooter with a website, and it's tied to Google so that any search for plumber 83221 shows me. But then, there aren't a lot of computer-savvy people here who would look for a plumber that way.

I remember an email from a Montana plumber that was reprinted in, I think, Plumbing and Mechanical. He stated that he had tried flat rate and that it did not work in his area. He said he had to go back to T&M because he was heading toward bankruptcy. I tend to think it had more to do with the way he implemented the flat rate, but it is quite possible he was in a difficult area like this one.

Moving back into drain cleaning should help me quite a bit when word gets out that I'm doing it. Marketing should get me back up to at least where I was before the Homeys and the Lowes moved into the area. Learning the best ways to sell myself in this market may help a lot, too.


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## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

Herk - I don't believe flat rate works everywhere. We are giving it a try though. If the others are T&M, offer both pricing methods. Just beat them at their own game. Hourly rate is only half the equation. If you charge $110. per hour and get it done in an hour, the bill is $110.00. The competition charges $80.00 per hour and takes 1.5 hrs for a total of $120.00 Who was the cheapest plumber? The $110.00 an hour guy. Think about it and use this to your advantage. The most important thing in staying in business and thriving is getting in the door!

Another plumbing co. on another forum advertises $49.95 drain cleaning and he says he gets all kinds of calls from it. Just a thought. Sounds brilliant - but I must admit, I am too fearful to try it.


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

*If I get an objection to F/R, I mention that an hourly might sound good, but there's no guarantee of how much time it takes, nor is there an incentive to get it done in a timely fashion.*

*It must be an area thing, the most feedback I get is positive when other shops won't give a price.*

*In the same respect, I also lose work when they decide it's too much, but I see those as customers I'm better off without in the longrun.*


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *If I get an objection to F/R, I mention that an hourly might sound good, but there's no guarantee of how much time it takes, nor is there an incentive to get it done in a timely fashion.*
> 
> *It must be an area thing, the most feedback I get is positive when other shops won't give a price.*
> 
> *In the same respect, I also lose work when they decide it's too much, but I see those as customers I'm better off without in the longrun.*


Same here. Most customer's are relieved to get a flat price upfront...no surprises. They PREFER flat-rate. The ones that can't afford my prices, or want the cheapest in town...well, they are not the customers I'm looking for anyway.


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

*In lieu of the fact that many of the folks are calling for emergency service, it's hard to see them comparing notes on which plumber is cheapest...at least not all the time.*
*Yes, I do have the problem with price shoppers, I have generally learned to just let 'em go rather than work at a loss or have a slew of calls come in that I can't handle when I'm wrapped up on a cheapie job.*

*In that sense it's often a gamble, you win some, you lose some.*

*Like Crazy says, it could also be dependant on area.*


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## Song Dog (Jun 12, 2008)

As a note, a year or so before I went flat rate, I told several people it wouldn't work here. Guess what, I will never go back to t&m. I think it was a mental thing, thinking or shooting down what I really should do. Because flat rate has truly made me more money and with less customer complaints. 
People complained at 65 an hour but are truly happy with a flat rate price that equates to a 120 an hour. But a flat rate, imo, will not work to it full potential w/o a professional scene- uniform, presentation, price book, and cleanlieness. Just my thought. I would never put a lifetime guarantee on a faucet @ 65 an hour but will using flat rate.
Just my thoughts.

In Christ,

Song Dog


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## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

Song Dog - We have the whole professional thing going, that is why we are trying flat rate. Our lightbulb moment came when gas prices skyrocketed. We had to raise our labor rate, but due to the economy and cheap T & M guys, we can't take the risk of losing customers. INHO, T & M is the most fairest when dealing with honest people. However, the cheap cannibals make it almost impossible to earn a living on T & M.

FEAR - the biggest evil of all! More power over us than the competition. Time for 'no guts, no glory.' Tired of working harder, now time to work smarter!


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

I am in total agreement with plumbcrazy. I am going to be making the switch to flat rate pretty soon. Just the thought of making the switch gets my stomach roiling.


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## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

UA - Have you researched price books? We downloaded the free 30 page book from Upfrontprice.com and are doctoring it up to fit our needs. Would love to have more 'freebies' to complete it.


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

I have looked at price books. I ordered the 199 for $199 book set at price level A which seems to be in line with my pricing. I kept doing jobs at T&M but kept track of everything against the price book. I think that the pricing is going to work for me so I have ordered the full price book. It should be here in the next week or so. I will go through it line by line and adjust anything that I feel the need to in order to customize it and in order to learn it. I am currently working on an advertising plan in order to introduce flat rate pricing to my area. No other trade is offering flat rate pricing in my area so it will be interesting to see how potential customers react. I do mostly new constrution but am getting into more service work. So if this flat rate plan fails, I will still be able to rely on the construction end of things to keep me going.


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## Song Dog (Jun 12, 2008)

uaplumber said:


> I have looked at price books. I ordered the 199 for $199 book set at price level A which seems to be in line with my pricing. I kept doing jobs at T&M but kept track of everything against the price book. I think that the pricing is going to work for me so I have ordered the full price book. It should be here in the next week or so. I will go through it line by line and adjust anything that I feel the need to in order to customize it and in order to learn it. I am currently working on an advertising plan in order to introduce flat rate pricing to my area. No other trade is offering flat rate pricing in my area so it will be interesting to see how potential customers react. I do mostly new constrution but am getting into more service work. So if this flat rate plan fails, I will still be able to rely on the construction end of things to keep me going.


So, did you buy the software?

In Christ,

Song Dog


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

Plumbcrazy said:


> Our lightbulb moment came when gas prices skyrocketed. We had to raise our labor rate, but due to the economy and cheap T & M guys, we can't take the risk of losing customers.


I think a lot of people woke up when they realized that the gas purchases were dragging them down. Unfortunately, many still haven't come to their senses. They'd rather complain that they just aren't making it.

And I think that eventually, some will go out of business. 

The good thing is that, for many of us, waking up meant not only making up for the difference in gas prices but also it meant professionalizing our businesses so that we can provide more and not just survive but thrive.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

Plumbcrazy said:


> I don't believe flat rate works everywhere. We are giving it a try though.


I think flat rate can work everywhere and eventually will be the universally-accepted way to price services.

I don't think that you can take a major company price book and just go out and sell. I think that some areas simply won't support the price range. But, with a little skulduggery, I think you can adjust the prices so that you can do better than you were doing and that you can be creative with tasks and add-ons and do even better.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

uaplumber said:


> I am going to be making the switch to flat rate pretty soon. Just the thought of making the switch gets my stomach roiling.


It's not so bad. I had a hard time with it at first - getting used to the concept. It gets kind of fun after you do it for a while. That's probably why a lot of folks say they'd never go back to T&M. 

I remember when I first started I thought I'd put together some service contracts. So I researched all I could find on the web and made a simple one. _Then, I started giving them away for a two-month period for free because I wanted my customers to have them!

_Geez, what an idiot.

Now, I offer the service contract or charge the full price. Surprisingly, people will often choose the fulll price and you just make more money. 

You have to remember that the price book is a guide and that you have to be creative with it. You won't have prices for everything. But you can almost always find something close to it and fudge it to make it fit. And the customers seem to feel comfortable with that. 

At a low hourly rate, many of us were giving our hours away for years. The temptation to keep doing that, even with a flat rate book, is tremendous, especially when you're working for the same old customers.


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

Its definately going to be an experience I'm sure. I just have to be sure that I get the word out about it and show the customers that it is the best way for them. Like anything new, if you are the first to offer it you have to spend time educating the public about it.

Song Dog - I didn't get the software, just the book. Right now I just have 2 trucks on the road and the book will suffice. However, if this gamble pays off, I will need to expand further and would get the software for sure.


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## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

Herk said:


> At a low hourly rate, many of us were giving our hours away for years. The temptation to keep doing that, even with a flat rate book, is tremendous, especially when you're working for the same old customers.


:no: Nope! Not anymore. Spending an extra $3000.00 in gas the first six months of 2008 and not recouping it was my eye opener.

Saying yes to charity (working for cheap) = saying no to my family! My family deserves more from me. I work damn hard, and yes, I want to be compensated for it. Before going into business, I would never work for an employer for less than I was worth. 

We all need to treat our businesses as a business. Business exists to earn a profit, not a living. If you want to earn a living, go work for someone else and leave the headaches behind. I feel I work 24/7, but am only paid for 40.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Plumbcrazy said:


> :no: Nope! Not anymore. Spending an extra $3000.00 in gas the first six months of 2008 and not recouping it was my eye opener.
> 
> Saying yes to charity (working for cheap) = saying no to my family! My family deserves more from me. I work damn hard, and yes, I want to be compensated for it. Before going into business, I would never work for an employer for less than I was worth.
> 
> We all need to treat our businesses as a business. Business exists to earn a profit, not a living. If you want to earn a living, go work for someone else and leave the headaches behind. I feel I work 24/7, but am only paid for 40.


Amen!!! Preach it sista!!!


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## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

:yes: I'm revving up for the switch. Bye Bye T & M!


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

It just _feels_ more professional to come in with a fancy book and a briefcase to quote the job. And it feels more professional to come in with a uniform. (Or, in my case, a pseudo-uniform.) I've seen guys write up their bill on a steno pad in #2 pencil. And they usually mis-add. I don't wanna be like that.

For a while, I would switch back to T&M when I couldn't figure a job on flat rate. Now, I think I can do it pretty easily. I've been doing FR for about nine months and I'm a lot more comfortable with it than I was when I first started.


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