# Kohler Cimmarron - Have they Corrected the Poor Bowl Wash?



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Customer called, done work for them for years, I think the wife is pissed that I mentioned something "not" good about their product choice, which is a kohler cimmarron round front toilet.

They do not want a elongated. I installed a Kohler Wellworth for them years ago but they do not want that model back in, they want the Cimmarron.

I told them that the toilet will flush anything you throw at it, but the bowl wash is not good on my 5 year old Kohler Cimmarron.

Instead of a plunger, you'll need a brush. Told them I rate it a 3 on a scale of 10 for that inconvenience but give the toilet a 9.5 for doing what it says, and no chance of leaks from the tank to bowl design. Mine has the large flapper, so I believe the newer ones have the highline series flush valve tower.


Personally? I think every toilet manufacture copied mansfield 208/209's original idea, then made it work in same fashion. The new Kohler design is just that, seal at the base with a huge tube in the center that raises and lowers. AS3 though was the retard from hell design with all those moving parts. Funny thing is....I never have to service those toilets; they were so bad that they are all gone in my area.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Ferguson gave me a Cimmaron and its in the hall bath....its also 5 yrs old about..worst bowl wash ever...Im going to remodel this bath and that toilet is going...I have a Kohler ironworks in the powder room and its great....the older painted one in the master is revival and its ok but the more recent ironworks is great.

mine is elongated...and I would never buy one or recommend it so I might not find out the answer to the question


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Why not a drake?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Why not a Toto Drake II Model # CST454CEFG :thumbup:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Protech said:


> Why not a drake?


 
Every Toto toilet I've installed, I had to go back within 2 years and remove the korky/hunter/gmax fill valve because the simplest spec of dirt will cause it to malfunction, 

and I've had issues with the flappers getting destroyed in short time, no chlorine tablets in the water. 

Toto fought me tooth and nail to get compensated just for the flappers, let alone the ass pounding I took on my profit margin on those toilets.


They might be a good flushing toilet but price wise they've moved out of the market for normal purchase. 

People won't bat an eyelash putting in a American Standard Cadet 3, but when you mention almost $350 for the toilet, it's not going to happen.

If a customer has us install a drake, or any toto, that fill valve comes out instantly and a 400A is the cure.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Especially if now a Gerber avalanche or viper at a fraction the cost with a good water spot flushes so well. I dont like the fill valve on Toto..maybe my quirk..but toto is a fine toilet just not my 1st choice anymore.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Every Toto toilet I've installed, I had to go back within 2 years and remove the korky/hunter/gmax fill valve because the simplest spec of dirt will cause it to malfunction,
> 
> and I've had issues with the flappers getting destroyed in short time, no chlorine tablets in the water.
> 
> ...


Wow I had no idea your water was that bad...


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

stillaround said:


> Ferguson gave me a Cimmaron and its in the hall bath....its also 5 yrs old about..worst bowl wash ever...Im going to remodel this bath and that toilet is going...I have a Kohler ironworks in the powder room and its great....the older painted one in the master is revival and its ok but the more recent ironworks is great.
> 
> mine is elongated...and I would never buy one or recommend it so I might not find out the answer to the question


 Kohler knows damn well, that those toilet bowls have a lousy wash, & they not only do nothing, but don't even acknowledge it. I've never handled Kohler, but installed many that customers bought.You never know when you install a Kohler, whether it will be a good flusher or bad. Total BS.
I've never had an issue with the Wellsworth, & I have one in my house. All the rest of them, you can flip a coin as to whether it will flush good or not. Had a defective seal on the new tower flush valve, about 2yrs ago. Toilet kept running. Could not find parts, or even a new tank anywhere. Customer lived with it like that for over 4 months. They just turned supply valve off. The customer bought the toilet, so I wasn't too sympathetic.:no:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I agree. I've set a few avalanches and they seam pretty comparable with the drake at a fraction of the cost. Also, they have the rock solid fluidmaster instead of the corky fill valve.



stillaround said:


> Especially if now a Gerber avalanche or viper at a fraction the cost with a good water spot flushes so well. I dont like the fill valve on Toto..maybe my quirk..but toto is a fine toilet just not my 1st choice anymore.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Wow I had no idea your water was that bad...


 
It's upticking on the chlorine content. The fill valves? I took out a Hunter Valve saturday, all the same. 


There's actually a "fix" for that valve, but apparently Korky will not "fix" that valve before sending it out.

I can diagnose those valves a million miles away, just like a Mansfield when they say "Handle broke/hard to push down" and sure enough, hit it right on the money.

I've got 400A's I installed 12 years ago, STILL operating without error.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

my cimmeron has a lousy bowl wash as well, but, it has never stopped up since we have had it.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Don The Plumber said:


> Kohler knows damn well, that those toilet bowls have a lousy wash, & they not only do nothing, but don't even acknowledge it. I've never handled Kohler, but installed many that customers bought.You never know when you install a Kohler, whether it will be a good flusher or bad. Total BS.
> I've never had an issue with the Wellsworth, & I have one in my house. All the rest of them, you can flip a coin as to whether it will flush good or not. Had a defective seal on the new tower flush valve, about 2yrs ago. Toilet kept running. Could not find parts, or even a new tank anywhere. Customer lived with it like that for over 4 months. They just turned supply valve off. The customer bought the toilet, so I wasn't too sympathetic.:no:


 The more recent ones seem better...the line is extensive and I agree you dont know how a Bancroft for example will flush. The older wellworths, portraits , memoirs werent as good as the newer. I also dont push the Kohler toilet.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> my cimmeron has a lousy bowl wash as well, but, it has never stopped up since we have had it.


 Its amazing to see it take all that unsubmerged paper no problem and leave a brown patch osticky soft fecal matter:laughing:.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Every Toto toilet I've installed, I had to go back within 2 years and remove the korky/hunter/gmax fill valve because the simplest spec of dirt will cause it to malfunction,
> 
> and I've had issues with the flappers getting destroyed in short time, no chlorine tablets in the water.
> 
> ...


 400A does not fill the bowl properly on Toto toilets. You should use a 400 HR (high refill) & I credit Rick for that info. I've been telling my supply house this for years, & thats why I kept using the Toto fill valves, cuz the 400A would not fill the bowl enough. I bought the Fluidmaster HR fill valves, which I found out through Rick & they work awesome, at half the cost.

Now as for the Toto flappers wearing out prematurely, I simply think you have no clue what your talking about. How do I know this? ............I know this cuz I have had the exact same problem, & my supply house tells me they sell thousands of Toto toilets & no-one but me has had problems with the Korky flapper. 
Installed 3 ultramax 1pc toilets in my in-laws house. I always mark install date on under side of lid. I was installing a water heater at their house a little over 18months later. (These people have zero mechanical knowledge, of anything in their house). I heard water turning on & off. Checked 1st toilet, & flapper was so bad, it was almost inverted into flush valve. My Father in law said the handle was hard to push down. The 2nd flapper had the chain pulled out of the flapper, & a friend had it rigged with a paper clip,(they never said anything to me about it). The 3rd flapper was bad condition but still worked. This is city water, & no chlorine tabs. I had to replace all 3 flappers. Not a big deal since I was there, problem was I only had 2 flappers. Now I carry 6 of each. Those flappers should last 5yrs minimum.
If there is any doubt, these same people have lived in same house for years, with same water,& never had an issue with the flappers in their old toilets.


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