# PVC vent



## dorian_grey (Sep 9, 2013)

Has anyone heard about a movement to eliminate PVC from venting situations? I heard a few comments about it from a tankless class I was in.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Huh??????? And use what??


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

dorian_grey said:


> Has anyone heard about a movement to eliminate PVC from venting situations? I heard a few comments about it from a tankless class I was in.


Of which brand??


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## paultheplumber1 (May 1, 2014)

I have run into two inspectors that will not allow PVC or CPVC for venting.


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## dorian_grey (Sep 9, 2013)

It was a Noritz class, but the comments were more broad. Maybe someone just blowing smoke?


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## dorian_grey (Sep 9, 2013)

paultheplumber1 said:


> I have run into two inspectors that will not allow PVC or CPVC for venting.


What do they require?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

paultheplumber1 said:


> I have run into two inspectors that will not allow PVC or CPVC for venting.


Inspectors said that or the codes??..


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

plumbdrum said:


> Huh??????? And use what??


Of course, the ONE STEP!!


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I have heard but it probably won't happen.


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## smoldrn (Oct 4, 2010)

Replace it with Orangeburg:laughing:


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

There is some that use a stainless inter pipe for exhaust and a PVC jacket for intake air but they are expensive.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Whatever the manufactures says is applicable, until your code tells you differently. I misread it at first as plumbing venting. Duh. One step glue away gents


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Charlotte sent out a notification that their pvc pipe and fittings were designed for DWV not for of venting flue gasses


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## paultheplumber1 (May 1, 2014)

In Newport RI the inspector allows us to use schd 80 cpvc. In middletown the next town over we have to use a metal duravent type. He read a story about pvc company's do not state there products are safe for use in venting flue gas. Supposidly the vent can scale over time and it increases the temp of the flue gas beyond the safe temp labeled on the pvc. Not sure if any of it is true but it's easier to comply than to fight an inspector that we do a ton of work in his area. The tinknocker was bull**** that he had to redo both of his 90 plus units.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

paultheplumber1 said:


> In Newport RI the inspector allows us to use schd 80 cpvc. In middletown the next town over we have to use a metal duravent type. He read a story about pvc company's do not state there products are safe for use in venting flue gas. Supposidly the vent can scale over time and it increases the temp of the flue gas beyond the safe temp labeled on the pvc. Not sure if any of it is true but it's easier to comply than to fight an inspector that we do a ton of work in his area. The tinknocker was bull**** that he had to redo both of his 90 plus units.




Both good guys, one of the has the same name as me ironacally


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

paultheplumber1 said:


> In Newport RI the inspector allows us to use schd 80 cpvc. In middletown the next town over we have to use a metal duravent type. He read a story about pvc company's do not state there products are safe for use in venting flue gas. Supposidly the vent can scale over time and it increases the temp of the flue gas beyond the safe temp labeled on the pvc. Not sure if any of it is true but it's easier to comply than to fight an inspector that we do a ton of work in his area. The tinknocker was bull**** that he had to redo both of his 90 plus units.



Or use poly pipe meant for conveying glue gases


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

paultheplumber1 said:


> I have run into two inspectors that will not allow PVC or CPVC for venting.


Typical know it all inspectors on a power trip,I swear they are all alike,all cut from the same mold:laughing:


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plumbdrum said:


> Both good guys, one of the has the same name as me ironacally


Think I seen on the news that he jumped off a bridge this morning:laughing:


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

WH manufacturers' installation instructions clearly state that PVC (and solid core ABS) is allowed for flue piping of their appliance. PVC pipe manufacturers say it is not. The worst part of this conundrum is that the small print in the WH instructions says to consult your local code. So, if something goes wrong with the install, the guy who the courts would stick it to looks back at you from the mirror? Plus, your insurance carrier would treat you like a red headed step child.

I believe this product is universally approved. Unfortunately, no supplier in my area stocks it and most have never heard of it.
http://www.ipexinc.com/Content/Prod...ketId=15&MarketSegmentId=3&LanguageCode=en-CA

Any Canadians wish to pipe in on this? I believe your code enforces strict adherence to proper flue piping.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

So what are we suppose to use for a power vent?


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Plumbus said:


> WH manufacturers' installation instructions clearly state that PVC (and solid core ABS) is allowed for flue piping of their appliance. PVC pipe manufacturers say it is not. The worst part of this conundrum is that the small print in the WH instructions says to consult your local code. So, if something goes wrong with the install, the guy who the courts would stick it to looks back at you from the mirror? Plus, your insurance carrier would treat you like a red headed step child.
> 
> I believe this product is universally approved. Unfortunately, no supplier in my area stocks it and most have never heard of it.
> http://www.ipexinc.com/Content/Prod...ketId=15&MarketSegmentId=3&LanguageCode=en-CA
> ...


Ipex is a Canadian product. 
Here is a US (and Canadian) polypropylene pipe that is a listed Catagory ii and Catagory vi product
http://www.centrotherm.us.com/files/2713/5886/8587/CT_Brochure_8panelgate_WEB.pdf


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## plumber11928 (Feb 18, 2015)

How about stainless; like Duravent FasNseal


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## dorian_grey (Sep 9, 2013)

How many of you are already using an alternative? Are alternative products priced anywhere close to PVC/CPVC?


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## paultheplumber1 (May 1, 2014)

I've been using the CPVC. I guess because it's the middle of the road option. Safer than PVC but yet cheaper than the duravent. Unless specifically required by the code official.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> Charlotte sent out a notification that their pvc pipe and fittings were designed for DWV not for of venting flue gasses


I'd like to see that. Sure for DWV , the units are calling for sch40


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

GREENPLUM said:


> I'd like to see that. Sure for DWV , the units are calling for sch40



It's been a while, I'll try to find it at the office


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> It's been a while, I'll try to find it at the office


If it is about DWV Pipe I understand. But I wanna see where it states sch40 is not recommended.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

sparky said:


> Typical know it all inspectors on a power trip,I swear they are all alike,all cut from the same mold:laughing:


I resent that there remark, We are not all cut from the same mold. I worked in the field for near 27 years and been inspecting for 20 of that or slightly more. Not a book baby here.

I will have you know I am short & have hair......... Other inspectors don't.

So there........:001_tongue:

One of the things I get in the legal publications I subscribe to are if it is not installed "as per the manufactures instructions" Which are submitted for approval to the ASSE, ASME and ICC-ES. If litigation is brought into the picture you will lose, as the paid professional who's job it is to know better.

In this case if the HVAC manufacture states you can use PVC and the whatever pipe company states "their product may not be used for anything outside of DWV plumbing installation", I believe you would be accountable should something happen. The pipe manufactures installation guide lines would supersede the HVAC. After all they did not make the pipe. Let the HVAC industry make it's own pipe, same would be said about Sch. 80 if the manufacture did not state it's product is approved for that application.

I will admit, this is the first I have heard about it, you may not hear anything till a lawsuit comes up. Then run for cover....


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

GREENPLUM said:


> I'd like to see that. Sure for DWV , the units are calling for sch40



So what schedule is your standard DWV PVC????? Come on


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Here's some helpful info
http://www.neboea.org/resources/cat...ownload=110:venting-of-category-iv-appliances


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

GAN said:


> I resent that there remark, We are not all cut from the same mold. I worked in the field for near 27 years and been inspecting for 20 of that or slightly more. Not a book baby here.
> 
> I will have you know I am short & have hair......... Other inspectors don't.
> 
> ...


Lolololololololololo:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> So what schedule is your standard DWV PVC????? Come on


 Come on... what do you use to install? Have you ever?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

GREENPLUM said:


> I'd like to see that. Sure for DWV , the units are calling for sch40



DWV PVC is sch 40


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Nope, never installed pvc, you use 1 step glue correct?


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Solid core sch40


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Well you would NEVER use sch 40 foam core for sure


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> DWV PVC is sch 40


Very good, but most of it is foam core for DWV. 

Most seasoned plumbers know what i mean when I said sch40


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

It's the same material as used for DWV


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> It's the same material as used for DWV


Not here, we use foam core for DWV and sch40 for pressure

The foam is quite


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> Nope, never installed pvc, you use 1 step glue correct?


That's why I have a license and you don't


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

GREENPLUM said:


> That's why I have a license and you don't



Now that's funny


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> Now that's funny


Truth hurts


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

GREENPLUM said:


> Not here, we use foam core for DWV and sch40 for pressure
> 
> The foam is quite



Both sch 40


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

GREENPLUM said:


> Truth hurts



What truth?


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Why are you such an a hole

I can be mean too


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I'm a huge A hole, why thanks. But please when you post on a topic please be clear on your terminology .


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

GREENPLUM said:


> That's why I have a license and you don't



So you really think I am not licensed?


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Proud to be an a hole, now i feel bad for ya. Life's too short


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> So you really think I am not licensed?


Yes, why would a licensed plumber take a huge pay cut to inspect.

Unless a medical condition


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I'm only one when I have to be, a lot of the times this is the place where I need to be to deal with some clueless people. Now back to the topic, I cannot find the letter from Charlotte pipe regarding the topic at hand, but if you do a google search there is plenty of material on the subject.if you research on charlottes site it is stated there.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

GREENPLUM said:


> Yes, why would a licensed plumber take a huge pay cut to inspect.
> 
> Unless a medical condition



It's called a pension and a lot of time off. Between my full time job and the 2 towns I inspect I'm doing just fine. And by the way a hold 2 master plumber licenses in 2 states and a master pipe fitter .


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> a lot of the times this is the place where I need to be to deal with some clueless people. Now back to the topic, I cannot find the letter from Charlotte pipe


Life is what you make it, you choose to be a AZ hat.

Go figure, no letter to back up


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> It's called a pension and a lot of time off. Between my full time job and the 2 towns I inspect I'm doing just fine. And by the way a hold 2 master plumber licenses in 2 states and a master pipe fitter .


That's great, idc


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

GREENPLUM said:


> That's great, idc



That's fine, page 116 of the Charlotte pipe plastic book talks about it. I'll find the letter, don't worry, it's filed away somewhere. In the meantime crawl back to your hole and relax.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

GREENPLUM said:


> Yes, why would a licensed plumber take a huge pay cut to inspect.
> 
> Unless a medical condition


Probably because he's tired of lugging around water heaters and sewer machines.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Double hernias and herniated discs changed my mind, surgery for the hernia and exercise because now I have time has helped the back, aghhhhh life is good


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Found it


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Is that all of it?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

What else do you need to read, it's pretty black and white that they are covering their butt for any possible legal action that could come their way if an incident occurred. Their product is meant to handle fluids, not flue gasses


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## Plumberdood1 (Apr 23, 2014)

Burnham Alpines and K2 boilers come with CPVC pipe for the first 3 feet of exhaust then to PVC .


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## paultheplumber1 (May 1, 2014)

Crown phantoms come the same way with 3' of CPVC. And a CPVC 90.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

GREENPLUM said:


> Yes, why would a licensed plumber take a huge pay cut to inspect.
> 
> Unless a medical condition


How do you know it would be a pay cut? I know a town inspector that gets $80k a year. Throw his benefits in and you're looking at well over $100k. I know plenty of licensed plumbers that don't make anywhere near that. Average rate around here, non union, is $30 an hour. Figure 40 hour weeks for 52 weeks a year and you're at $62,400 a year.


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

I think it's safe to say most inspectors don't make that much. Around here, most towns have idiots for inspectors.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I make enough between my 2 positions that I'm comfortable, I put food and a roof over my head, bottom line is I'm happy with my decision with my career. I have a lot of great Perks in my position that is not even included in my salary.


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

You were actually in the field though at one point so you know what it's like. I think most inspectors just take a simple test that a monkey could pass.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

jmc12185 said:


> You were actually in the field though at one point so you know what it's like. I think most inspectors just take a simple test that a monkey could pass.



Yes 25 years, 14 of which was business. Ma is in a totally different league than most other states regarding plumbing/gas codes. Also you have to actually be a plumber to be an inspector.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Centrotherm polypropylene flue pipe is rated to the following
UL-1738 - InnoFlue® is the only polymeric vent system listed to UL-1738, the safety standard for category II, & IV, flue gas venting.
Listed for use with sustained flue gas temperatures to 230ºF (110ºC).
• UL-S636 - InnoFlue® is listed to ULC-S636 Type BH Class II C, making it suitable for use where Type BH Class II A, B or C venting is
specified in Canada. Listed for use with sustained flue gas temperatures to 230ºF (110ºC)
• Massachusetts Plumbers Board - Approval code C1-0710-415

It looks like it's accepted in your neck of the woods Plumbdrum.


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

plumbdrum said:


> Yes 23 years, 14 of which was business. Ma is in a totally different league than most other states regarding plumbing/gas codes. Also you have to actually be a plumber to be an inspector.


 Yes, I think that should be a prerequisite to be an inspector. A certain amount of years in the field. It seems all they care about is stud guards. Everything could be completely wrong, but as long as everything is stud guarded you'll pass.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Yup it's approved, it's also the code to follow manufactures install instructions that say PVC is an approved product. The Charlotte pipe letter I presented earlier in the thread was to show that that PVC manufacture was covering their azz. I think it's a topic that all state codes should look into and come up with a definitive answer to. The material was not designed to convey flue gasses. Time will tell where this is going.


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

Plumbdrum, what do you make of this?
The picture is a s.s. concentric vent terminated through a wall.
It measures 12" from the window below it, and 48" under the window above it.
It in in an alcove - there are walls to the left and right of it, about 10' wide.
Is this violating any code rules?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Not knowing what the manufactures instruction say or the BTU's of the unit does not help, but if the unit is over 50,000 BTU, 12" to any opening. Are there windows across the way? Tough to give a answer without all the info.inside corners could come into play also. Need instructions


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

I'm not saying that the particular inspector I was talking about makes what all inspectors make. I was just pointing out that it's hard to make a broad statement like he did about taking a pay cut to be an inspector without actually knowing all the facts.
Now back to the original topic.
I personally have never seen solid core PVC fail when used as a flue material. I have seen foam core PVC discolored and get hairline cracks, usually at the joints, when used for a flue.
I would rather use sch 80 CPVC. It is rated to handle the temps of the exhaust from high eff appliances and is a sturdy product. I do not like the Polly pro stuff they came out with. It seems too thin to me and that gasket in the fittings seems like it could easily fail. It reminds me of that clear pipe they had out for a few years that started failing left and right.
The stainless steel stuff they have for high eff is nice too but it's expensive and harder to work with. It's a lot easier to cut some plastic and glue it together. It also has that same gasket as the Polly pro I don't like. I've only used it once. It was one two 750,000 btu boilers and it was 10" if I remember correctly. Might have just been because of the size but it was a royal pain in the a$$ to put together.




newyorkcity said:


> Plumbdrum, what do you make of this?
> The picture is a s.s. concentric vent terminated through a wall.
> It measures 12" from the window below it, and 48" under the window above it.
> It in in an alcove - there are walls to the left and right of it, about 10' wide.
> Is this violating any code rules?


I'm not an inspector but I would have failed them on workmanship because of how crooked that is.
Plumbdrum is right, without the book from the manufacturer instructions you can't say if it's done correctly or not.
I don't like concentric terminations. On low fire the exhaust can be sucked back into the intake. I've replaced a few units because the intake was sucking in the flue gasses and rotted out the wiring and control board. Granted it doesn't always happen and wind direction does play a role in it but I'd rather keep intake and exhaust as far away from each other as possible.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

bct p&h said:


> I'm not saying that the particular inspector I was talking about makes what all inspectors make. I was just pointing out that it's hard to make a broad statement like he did about taking a pay cut to be an inspector without actually knowing all the facts.
> Now back to the original topic.
> I personally have never seen solid core PVC fail when used as a flue material. I have seen foam core PVC discolored and get hairline cracks, usually at the joints, when used for a flue.
> I would rather use sch 80 CPVC. It is rated to handle the temps of the exhaust from high eff appliances and is a sturdy product. I do not like the Polly pro stuff they came out with. It seems too thin to me and that gasket in the fittings seems like it could easily fail. It reminds me of that clear pipe they had out for a few years that started failing left and right.
> ...



I've never seen an actual failure, but I have seen a lot of yellowing/ browning of PVC on some equipment listed for PVC. It's a leaching of the chloride in the plastic and it could lead to a future failure.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

plumbdrum said:


> I've never seen an actual failure, but I have seen a lot of yellowing/ browning of PVC on some equipment listed for PVC. It's a leaching of the chloride in the plastic and it could lead to a future failure.


I can't say for sure that the hairline cracks were caused by the flue gasses. They could have been caused by using PVC shears in cold weather, I've seen that happen on dwv systems. I'm sure the heat of the flue gasses expanding and contracting the pipe helped spread the cracks. 
I don't see why anyone would use foam core over solid for a flue. You're only saving a few bucks and putting peoples lives in danger.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

bct p&h said:


> I can't say for sure that the hairline cracks were caused by the flue gasses. They could have been caused by using PVC shears in cold weather, I've seen that happen on dwv systems. I'm sure the heat of the flue gasses expanding and contracting the pipe helped spread the cracks.
> I don't see why anyone would use foam core over solid for a flue. You're only saving a few bucks and putting peoples lives in danger.



Most if not all appliance manufactures specifically say not to use foam core. I've only seen a 1 HWH manufacture say that you could


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## Plumberdood1 (Apr 23, 2014)

Bradford White EFU water heaters state you can use foam core. I wouldn't use it but, it's in the directions.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Plumberdood1 said:


> Bradford White EFU water heaters state you can use foam core. I wouldn't use it but, it's in the directions.



That's the one I saw, thanks, couldn't remember which brand it was.


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

Plumberdood1 said:


> Bradford White EFU water heaters state you can use foam core. I wouldn't use it but, it's in the directions.


And I believe it's for 50,000 btus or less. 75 gal Bradford and up will need solid core


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

GREENPLUM said:


> Yes, why would a licensed plumber take a huge pay cut to inspect.
> 
> Unless a medical condition


A lot of truth in that. Took me about 3 years to get back to the pay scale, and now am beyond.

But, Better benefits (top line family insurance with meds for about $180.00 a month), paid holidays (all major), paid sick days a months, 4 weeks paid vacation (without having to pay into a fund for it), office, hot coffee when its cold, cold drinks when it is frying outside, work year round no dead time. Drive to one location for work not around the country, Municipal vehicle, loose your callouses. Eat meals inside at a table, No freezing or frying for extended times. Catch up on reading. Go home same time every day.

Still do miss seeing some of the guys I worked with. Devil gets me by the butt every-now and then. I will call my old boos (who I still see and party with) when it's freaking cold outside and ask what he is doing. When he tells me outside roughing in I laugh and tell him how nice my hot coffee and desk is while the snow flies.

Its a young mans game. I loved it until I hit about 45, then eating aspirin every morning to loosen up starting getting old. Time to use the brain more and be less hard on the body, went from part time to full time, never looked back..


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

GAN said:


> A lot of truth in that. Took me about 3 years to get back to the pay scale, and now am beyond.
> 
> But, Better benefits (top line family insurance with meds for about $180.00 a month), paid holidays (all major), paid sick days a months, 4 weeks paid vacation (without having to pay into a fund for it), office, hot coffee when its cold, cold drinks when it is frying outside, work year round no dead time. Drive to one location for work not around the country, Municipal vehicle, loose your callouses. Eat meals inside at a table, No freezing or frying for extended times. Catch up on reading. Go home same time every day.
> 
> ...



Amen brother, started at 38 part time before I turned full time ,my first winter was the final deciding factor. And the sick and vacation time is nice.


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## gardenparty (Jan 29, 2015)

636 is what we use. It is a PVC pipe but manufactured for flue gas. It has it's own glue as well. Looks like white sch 40 PVC until you read the marking's on it. Super easy to get around here.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

gardenparty said:


> 636 is what we use. It is a PVC pipe but manufactured for flue gas. It has it's own glue as well. Looks like white sch 40 PVC until you read the marking's on it. Super easy to get around here.


 is it a one step glue? Lol


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

wyrickmech said:


> is it a one step glue? Lol


IPEX System 636 is an approved venting system used in Canada...

http://www.ipexinc.com/Content/Prod...ketId=15&MarketSegmentId=3&LanguageCode=en-CA


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