# Code Questions



## sptsnt00 (Dec 16, 2012)

We have had a few discussions recently about the following topics, which may or may not be some of those "plumbing myths".

- Long Sweep fittings used underground. 
I have always subscribed that this is code. However, in looking through the 2009 IPC....I cannot find a reference to it.

- 2" is minimum pipe size underground
Again, I have always subscribed to this, but cannot find reference to it in the IPC.

Can somebody direct me to the correct code section that addresses these issues?

Thanks


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

Out of courtesy to you Mike, I will tell ya that this type of question
may get some replies in here, but your wasting time looking for opinions
on specific code standards.
Just curious, but are you trying to re-invent the plumbing "wheel":whistling2:


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## sptsnt00 (Dec 16, 2012)

Nope. I'm not looking for "opinions". I'm looking ofr a SPECIFIC code section that references these issues.

I've been plumbing for over 30 years. I had my own business for 10, and have been in upper management for a significant part of the rest.

I am not an amateur, nor am I an idiot.

These are two things I've always assumed were code.

I was questioned recently on the validity of that assumption and went to look it up in the IPC, which is what we usually use in these parts.

I can't find reference to either of these issues in the IPC.

If my questions are too elementary, or are I am assumed to be an amateur due to the elementary nature of these questions, then I will have misjudged this particular site and will move on to more helpful avenues.


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

Your intro was read by me before replying to your post Sir.
I made no assumptions or references as to your intelligence
or your experience.
The only name I called you was Mike.
I asked a question out of curiosity, it was not meant to offend,
if you were offended, I sincerely say that I am sorry.
I'm like you, in that, I too have just always assumed that 2" was smallest
dia. allowed underground (cast iron did not come any smaller).
As to the sweep thing, I was taught no 1/4 bends allowed in any
drain piping EVER. Vents were the only place for those.
I do remember cast fittings had sweeps and long sweeps.
I was again taught sweeps for horz. to vert.,
long sweeps for vert. to horz.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

sptsnt00 said:


> We have had a few discussions recently about the following topics, which may or may not be some of those "plumbing myths".
> 
> - Long Sweep fittings used underground.
> I have always subscribed that this is code. However, in looking through the 2009 IPC....I cannot find a reference to it.
> ...


They are not IPC requirements. 

The sweep of the fitting has to do with where and how it is installed in the system related to the fixtures. The function is not affected by being above or below grade. 

The IPC bases drain sizes primarily on DFU. The 2" minimum was an old rule of thumb I believe from the National Code and older UPC codes. It carried forward in the BOCA but stopped there. Some muni's still require it though.


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## Keefer w (Jan 26, 2012)

I need a little clarity. Are we talking about fittings on their side in a ground work? For example using two 45's to make a long sweep 90?


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

chapter 7 section 706 in the IPC


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

1 1/2" cast iron has always been available. Quarter bends are allowed in the drainage system in the proper places.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

BigDave said:


> Your intro was read by me before replying to your post Sir.
> I made no assumptions or references as to your intelligence
> or your experience.
> The only name I called you was Mike.
> ...


In North Texas we can use 1 1/2 PVC now of days as I have been told. I have not installed it. I only do repairs


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

sptsnt00 said:


> Nope. I'm not looking for "opinions". I'm looking ofr a SPECIFIC code section that references these issues.
> 
> I've been plumbing for over 30 years. I had my own business for 10, and have been in upper management for a significant part of the rest.
> 
> ...


With your piss poor attitude on this forum. I suggest you find a more helpful avenue.......


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## MIbassmaster (Mar 16, 2010)

quarter bend allowed on 2" or smaller. REF. Table 706.3 Michigan Plumbing Code (this should answer both questions)


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

MIbassmaster said:


> quarter bend allowed on 2" or smaller. REF. Table 706.3 Michigan Plumbing Code (this should answer both questions)


You mean the one where it says quarterbends are allowed for horizontal to vertical changes for all sizes ( down turns)


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## MIbassmaster (Mar 16, 2010)

I assumed he or she meant horizontal x horizontal, although I have made a few horizontal x vertical connections in an underground. Did you actually scan that image onto your computer?


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

sptsnt00 said:


> If my questions are too elementary, or are I am assumed to be an amateur due to the elementary nature of these questions, then I will have misjudged this particular site and will move on to more helpful avenues.



ADA door openings required for this cranium...

Newb.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

MIbassmaster said:


> I assumed he or she meant horizontal x horizontal, although I have made a few horizontal x vertical connections in an underground. Did you actually scan that image onto your computer?


No I have digital versions on all my computers and Iphone.You can also look at the IPC codes here online (publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/ipc/index.htm)


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

justme said:


> 1 1/2" cast iron has always been available. Quarter bends are allowed in the drainage system in the proper places.


I've seen and used no-hub cast iron in 1-1/2" but I have never seen
hubbed soil pipe in that size.


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## phishfood (Nov 18, 2012)

IPC dropped the 2" pipe minimum in underground at some point, though I don't quite recall which edition. I THINK it was the 2004.


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

I think mike has a legit question just came off wrong. He is stating what we all know, but is just looking for it in the code book. As for myself, I'd like to know where that is and a lot more things in the IPC code book.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

justme said:


> No I have digital versions on all my computers and Iphone.You can also look at the IPC codes here online (publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/ipc/index.htm)


Man your like a library of code books Lol


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

MIbassmaster said:


> quarter bend allowed on 2" or smaller. REF. Table 706.3 Michigan Plumbing Code (this should answer both questions)


In the IPC the quarter bend and short sweep is only allowed on a single fixture's drain. Downstream from the connection of any other drain pipe the quarter bend and short sweep are both prohibited....regardless of the orientation of the fitting's position.

For instance a k/s drain alone can be a quarter bend if going from horizontal to vertical but if a floor drain ties in before the change in direction, a long sweep must be used to go from horizontal to vertical.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Is a short sweep and quarter bend the same thing.?? Trying to nail down ur lingo. I say a 90 or long radius 90. It's how I was taught and how I order parts


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Is a short sweep and quarter bend the same thing.?? Trying to nail down ur lingo. I say a 90 or long radius 90. It's how I was taught and how I order parts


I have always viewed it the same as you Tex. I only mention the quarter and short separately because the IPC addresses them individually.

The same question came up in my last code review class but I can't remember the answer.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Well. I never put smaller then 2" in the ground. Hell I only put 1 1/2 in for my stubb outs. And from vert to horz I use LR 90 and a reg 90 every where else no matter how many fixtures its serving. But I don't know all the codes to a tee and our AHJD is slack on enforcing state wide codes I wish they where harder on it cuz I'd know more codes and be a better plumber for it.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Well. I never put smaller then 2" in the ground. Hell I only put 1 1/2 in for my stubb outs. And from vert to horz I use LR 90 and a reg 90 every where else no matter how many fixtures its serving. But I don't know all the codes to a tee and our AHJD is slack on enforcing state wide codes I wish they where harder on it cuz I'd know more codes and be a better plumber for it.


 Up here in this backazzward county.. they want everything 4" underground... so how the hell can you properly seal a 2" showerpan drain into a 4" 'p' trap pipe in concrete??


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Is a short sweep and quarter bend the same thing.?? Trying to nail down ur lingo. I say a 90 or long radius 90. It's how I was taught and how I order parts


Pvc has quarterbends, long sweep 90's and you can get the little to no radius 90's for vents only

Castiron has quarterbends , short sweeps and long sweeps.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

justme said:


> Pvc has quarterbends, long sweep 90's and you can get the little to no radius 90's for vents only
> 
> Castiron has quarterbends , short sweeps and long sweeps.


Thanks.


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## sptsnt00 (Dec 16, 2012)

I appreciate all the responses. So far, no real good answers, and I think it's because those particular code restrictions aren't there, at least in the "BIG" codes.

I haven't pursued any of my local code officials to find out if these restrictions are largely locale driven with amendments to the "BIG" codes, and I will try that at some point.

Thanks for all the help, though....at least it started some discussion on what may be nothing more than a myth.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

sptsnt00 said:


> ....Can somebody direct me to the correct code section that addresses these issues?





plbgbiz said:


> They are not IPC requirements...





justme said:


> chapter 7 section 706 in the IPC





phishfood said:


> IPC dropped the 2" pipe minimum in underground at some point, though I don't quite recall which edition. I THINK it was the 2004.





sptsnt00 said:


> ...So far, no real good answers...



:blink:


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## sptsnt00 (Dec 16, 2012)

In the FWIW department. I read this site pretty thoroughly before I signed up so I am fully aware of the smart alec nature of this bunch. That being said, it seems to be quite one sided to the homies that reside here and isn't much tolerated from us newbie 30 year plumbers.

There's a lot of info to be shared here, but I think you chaps may be a tad too full of yourselves to fully get that done.

I'm out. Cancel my membership.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Good riddance.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)




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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

sptsnt00 said:


> In the FWIW department. I read this site pretty thoroughly before I signed up so I am fully aware of the smart alec nature of this bunch. That being said, it seems to be quite one sided to the homies that reside here and isn't much tolerated from us newbie 30 year plumbers.
> 
> There's a lot of info to be shared here, but I think you chaps may be a tad too full of yourselves to fully get that done.
> 
> I'm out. Cancel my membership.


 Yay! I'll make sure the door hits you on the way out!!


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Optimus Primer said:


> ...


Top shelf, HP, as usual! :thumbup:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

sptsnt00 said:


> In the FWIW department. I read this site pretty thoroughly before I signed up so I am fully aware of the smart alec nature of this bunch. That being said, it seems to be quite one sided to the homies that reside here and isn't much tolerated from us newbie 30 year plumbers...


Oh boo! There is no need to be such a cad. You asked only one question and received several specific, accurate, and beneficial replies and then proceeded to turn your nose up as if somehow you had been cheated out of something you paid for.

Can you imagine our amazement when a 30 year vet of the trade doesn't now what section of his code book deals with the installation of sanitary drainage fittings?

BTW: Maybe if you had not pissed all over BigDave when he was actually just trying to understand your vague query this would have gone differently. I am sorry we did not measure up to your standards.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Yea. Dave seems to be one if the nicer guys here. And he did jump on him pretty bad for no reason


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

sptsnt00 said:


> We have had a few discussions recently about the following topics, which may or may not be some of those "plumbing myths".
> 
> - Long Sweep fittings used underground.
> I have always subscribed that this is code. However, in looking through the 2009 IPC....I cannot find a reference to it.
> ...


 
According to the latest incarnation of the Idiots Plumbing Code, Long sweeps are not required underground, vertical to horizontal but horizontal to horizontal they are, and you can indeed put 1-1/2" underground as well.


I read through this thread and am frankly puzzled and a little embarrased for the membership. The guy asked a legitimate question and one that gets asked at every single code review seminar I have ever given and I give at least one a month and have done so for over 15 years now so a whole lot of experienced master plumbers are confused over those two questions and rightly so. I see no reason for his treatment here and don't blame him for moving on. Have you guys noticed a decided decline in membership and membership postings lately? Wonder why ?


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Cuz we are aholes??? It's all the drama and bs. First the election. Then the shooting. Current affairs are def effecting the zone


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## smoldrn (Oct 4, 2010)

They've made a lot of changes to the code over the years, most of them not good (IMHO). I've always used a LS 90 when going from vertical to horizontal (hydraulic jump), and always when it's horizontal to horizontal. To me, it's just a better engineered system.
I would never install 1 1/2 underground. I feel it's just a time bomb waiting to happen.


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## drain surgeon (Jun 17, 2010)

Once again the question that begs to be asked is why,if shiot rolls down hill in all 50 states are there so many variations in code?? Other than issues related to temp. differences I am a firm believer in a true UPC


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

sptsnt00 said:


> We have had a few discussions recently about the following topics, which may or may not be some of those "plumbing myths".
> 
> - Long Sweep fittings used underground.
> I have always subscribed that this is code. However, in looking through the 2009 IPC....I cannot find a reference to it.
> ...


 IPC table 706.3. 11/2 and 2 inch short turn 90 can go horizonal to horizonal. 3" and 4" must be long sweeps. and 11/2 pipe can go under a slab. Old school code was 2" only. We just dont because the inspectors are old school and still say no


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

Dang missed another good thread. Yall cracked me up


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Well Well,

I can throw this one out, here in the Grand Sate of Dilemma (Illinois) we say to heck with the UPC and we have our own glorious Plumbing Code that has not been updated since 2004 DUH,,,,,,,,

Does that make me a butt head also,,,,,

Here is our Plumbing Code

http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/07700890sections.html

and our License Law 
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=1343&ChapAct=225%C2%A0ILCS%C2%A0320/&ChapterID=24&ChapterName=PROFESSIONS+AND+OCCUPATIONS&ActName=Illinois+Plumbing+License+Law.

and our Plumbing Licensing Code
http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/068/06800750sections.html

and our Plumbing Contractors registration code
http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/07700894sections.html

and our Water Well and Pump Installers License Act
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilc...d+Pump+Installation+Contractor's+License+Act.

and our Private Sewage Disposal Licensing Act
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilc...ctName=Private+Sewage+Disposal+Licensing+Act.

and our Accessibility Code
http://www2.illinois.gov/cdb/business/codes/pages/illinoisaccessibilitycode.aspx


anyone see a pattern here????:blink:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

GAN said:


> Well Well,
> 
> I can throw this one out, here in the Grand Sate of Dilemma (Illinois) we say to heck with the UPC and we have our own glorious Plumbing Code that has not been updated since 2004 DUH,,,,,,,,
> 
> ...


I KNOW! IKNOW!

They all start with http? :tt2: :jester:


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## Keefer w (Jan 26, 2012)

Kinda like KY. Written by rich horse owners.


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