# Pex plumbing lawsuit



## Bathroomgetaway (May 18, 2011)

Has anyone read about this I just found this.... doesn't sound good. I rarely use pex I have on special occasions when it doesn't matter I just personally never trusted the stuff.

http://newsblaze.com/story/2007081013504600001.pz/topstory.html


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Bathroomgetaway said:


> Has anyone read about this I just found this.... doesn't sound good. I rarely use pex I have on special occasions when it doesn't matter I just personally never trusted the stuff.
> 
> http://newsblaze.com/story/2007081013504600001.pz/topstory.html


Did you notice the publication date of the article?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

OMG that is such hot news! 

you are a few years late to the party dude.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Bathroomgetaway said:


> Has anyone read about this I just found this.... doesn't sound good. I rarely use pex I have on special occasions when it doesn't matter I just personally never trusted the stuff.
> 
> http://newsblaze.com/story/2007081013504600001.pz/topstory.html


The problem was not with the PEX pipe it was the brass fittings...


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## Bathroomgetaway (May 18, 2011)

I did notice the that date was very old, I just had never heard anything about it. What about the plastic compression fittings. I know that the only ones I can find now are the gator clamp fittings not the cheaper plastic ones with a rubber seal which are the ones I used.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> The problem was not with the PEX pipe it was the brass fittings...


Or more specifically, it was a specific batch of fittings that were machined at the wrong temperature for the alloy of brass they were using. The improper manufacturing caused machined in stresses in the metal. When exposed to water, these stresses caused what is known as stress corrosion cracking.


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## Bathroomgetaway (May 18, 2011)

In general would you recommend using pex?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Yes, if you know how and where to install it correctly.



Bathroomgetaway said:


> In general would you recommend using pex?


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## DJenek (May 4, 2011)

The lawsuit was against a specific manufacturer, not an entire industry.


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## timplmbr (Mar 16, 2011)

we use the upnor brand and have had few if any problems, as long as it is installed correctly it never gave us a problem.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

I run it all the time. With the exception of sweat adpt's, or fip's I use only ( Polimer) plastic fittiings. Man if only we could get a plastic sweat fittinig huh?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> The problem was not with the PEX pipe it was the brass fittings...


With the exception of DuraPEX which had/has a splitting tube problem on hot lines... :yes:


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

mpsllc said:


> I run it all the time. With the exception of sweat adpt's, or fip's I use only ( Polimer) plastic fittiings. Man if only we could get a plastic sweat fittinig huh?



I've been to worried to use the poly crimp fittings. I use the Uponor EP fittings all the time, but never the crimp. You've never had a problem with them?


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## piedpiper (Mar 28, 2011)

uponor pro pex and viega are probably the most reliable


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Yet to have my first problem with them but one thing I keep in mind is to make sure no fittings are in a bind. Being plastic this concerns me. I try to be sure the fittings are in a relaxed position. Call it a gut feeling.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

piedpiper said:


> uponor pro pex and viega are probably the most reliable


So says their marketing departments... :laughing:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Given the internet world that exists, these lawyers are going to come after the "next big pex lawsuit" by utilizing the access to the internet by who else; those who installed it. 


And they won't be going after the casual homeowner. They'll go after the people running 1000's of feet.


What no one admits is the shi.t in your hands only has a record of existence by a current timeline. Go shove that (well it's been used in europe for decades) up your arse sideways: They don't utilize chlorine concentrations like the states have to, due to bad water.


Won't install 1" of this pipe or its fittings, same as CPVC or BluMax. I shield myself from liability of unknown longevities and everyone is already on the bandwagon that CPVC is falling apart everywhere.

I didn't sell out, I didn't cave into improper materials. *Dunbar Plumbing took the high road and only uses products that have proven longevity standards.*


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Dunbar,

I'm doing a remodel right now that was originally plumbed in PEX looped under slab like copper. So on this job you would walk away? I'm with you, I wish it was all copper, but if you don't jump on board your gonna get left behind.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Given the internet world that exists, these lawyers are going to come after the "next big pex lawsuit" by utilizing the access to the internet by who else; those who installed it.
> 
> 
> And they won't be going after the casual homeowner. They'll go after the people running 1000's of feet.
> ...


 
Why are you always so worried about liability? Trust me if a massive pex lawsuit happens, your insurance rates will go up. The plumbers who never installed the pipe are still in the same catagory. Rates will go up for many trades to compensate mainly for the lawyers pay. After these lawsuits are decided who is going to replace the pipe or fittings? Plumbers will be right back to using a new form of pex pipe, or new form of fitting. As, far as liability goes, your insurance rates will go up just like mine, the only difference is that I made money off of installing the pipe.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

easttexasplumb said:


> Why are you always so worried about liability? Trust me if a massive pex lawsuit happens, your insurance rates will go up. The plumbers who never installed the pipe are still in the same catagory. Rates will go up for many trades to compensate mainly for the lawyers pay. After these lawsuits are decided who is going to replace the pipe or fittings? Plumbers will be right back to using a new form of pex pipe, or new form of fitting. As, far as liability goes, your insurance rates will go up just like mine, the only difference is that I made money off of installing the pipe.


How in the world can a plumbing contractor be liable if

- the material is approved in your jurisdiction for use
- the manufacture received approval for their product
- The contractor installed the product as per manufacturers instructions
- the contractor gets inspection 

There is no way a contractor can be held liable if he covered all of the above.

However you may get named in a lawsuit, but that doesn't mean you have pay or will be found guilty.... If you do get named in a law suit just make the manufacture, city, and approval agency that approved the product party to the law suit.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> How in the world can a plumbing contractor be liable if
> 
> - the material is approved in your jurisdiction for use
> - the manufacture received approval for their product
> ...


+

Exactly, but the consumers will go after the contractor. The contractor will turn the matter over to thier insurance company, The insurance company will sue the manufactor.

It is an approved material, just the same as copper.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

easttexasplumb said:


> +
> 
> Exactly, but the consumers will go after the contractor. The contractor will turn the matter over to thier insurance company, The insurance company will sue the manufactor.
> 
> It is an approved material, just the same as copper.


I dont think I would get the insurance company involved.... If you did the are notoroius for pay out claims with out going to court...

We have had situations were one piece fiberglass bathtubs would literally start to fall apart in a few years....

were the gel coat would come right off the fiberglass itself...

customer went to GC ... GC went to us.. we went to the wholesaler... wholesaler went to maufacture...

Everything said and done the manufacture paid.... got to go through the proper channels and to me the insurance company is not one of them... unless of coarse it was all your fault


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## timplmbr (Mar 16, 2011)

there is a current lawsuit filed in minnesota against zurn pex products for faulty rings, as of feb, 26 2010......specifically p#f1807 crimp insert?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

It's called go after all the pockets and take what you can get...


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Redwood said:


> It's called go after all the pockets and take what you can get...


 But especially the deepest pockets.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

easttexasplumb said:


> +
> 
> Exactly, but the consumers will go after the contractor. The contractor will turn the matter over to thier insurance company, The insurance company will sue the manufactor.
> 
> It is an approved material, just the same as copper.


A more likely scenario for a class-action would be consumer-developer-plumber-supply house-distributor-manufacturer.

Mark


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

ToUtahNow said:


> A more likely scenario for a class-action would be consumer-developer-plumber-supply house-distributor-manufacturer.
> 
> Mark


 Depends on how deep your pockets are.

The Plumber in the above equation would in most cases be the last to be sued -- Mostly because they purchase just enough insurance to stay in the game.

I carry 8 times the amount of insurance required by my State -- Mostly because my Spouse is a Lawyer and has fed me the wisdom.

I pride myself in never having a judgement leveled against me -- But that doesn't mean I haven't been sued.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Widdershins said:


> Depends on how deep your pockets are.
> 
> The Plumber in the above equation would in most cases be the last to be sued -- Mostly because they purchase just enough insurance to stay in the game.
> 
> ...


Nope, the Plaintiff Attorney would name the developer-plumber-supply house-distributor-manufacturer and then let them worry where the money is coming from.

Mark


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

ToUtahNow said:


> Nope, the Plaintiff Attorney would name the developer-plumber-supply house-distributor-manufacturer and then let them worry where the money is coming from.
> 
> Mark


 That hasn't been my experience.

The pretrial discovery process usually winnows out those without a pot to piss in.

Those without said pot to piss in are generally dismissed from the proceedings -- Why argue against a party (and their lawyers) when you stand to gain nothing?


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Widdershins said:


> That hasn't been my experience.
> 
> The pretrial discovery process usually winnows out those without a pot to piss in.
> 
> Those without said pot to piss in are generally dismissed from the proceedings -- Why argue against a party (and their lawyers) when you stand to gain nothing?


I've done hundreds of cases in last 23-years and I can count on one hand the number of times the plumber was not brought in. You are right, the ones that don't get brought in are the ones with zero assets and no coverage left (except for in California). However, most big Developers require the plumbers to carry policies in the millions. The ones who are almost never included are the Engineers and Architect because they never have any coverage.

Mark


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

My opinion.... Pex is cheap crap, it's the ruination of our trade.. a monkey could install it.
I understand materials change, but go to pro press at least some skill is required and you still need a ruler...
Making this crap legal only makes it easier for the HO to do their own plumbing.
Thankfully this not legal by me and hope it never is.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

No comments huh, I guess everyone agrees???


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> No comments huh, I guess everyone agrees???


No it's old news...

The lines are drawn and they aren't moving...:whistling2:

Scuuuuze me while I go mud wrestle with PC Plumber...


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

That's kind of weak, thought we were suppose to discuss topics that affect our trade.
Plenty of people comment on everyday plumbing stories, but nothing on a real topic hmmm interesting?
Plumbing is the most cut throat trade of all, anyway to get an edge we take it.
I get that, but c'mon running garden hose for the domestic water system is too far.
Things like pex, pro vents, take all the skill out of what we do. And in my opinion will be the end of plumbing as we know it.
In 10-15 years who knows the HO probably won't even need a plumber anymore. I know flex gas piping is in the works in some parts as well, another great idea....scary.
I think we need to stop the cut throat attitude and maintain some type of standards...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> That's kind of weak, thought we were suppose to discuss topics that affect our trade.
> Plenty of people comment on everyday plumbing stories, but nothing on a real topic hmmm interesting?
> Plumbing is the most cut throat trade of all, anyway to get an edge we take it.
> I get that, but c'mon running garden hose for the domestic water system is too far.
> ...


Search it you can read what I've already said... :laughing:


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

I can't find anything do u have a date? I don't think I'm a good with searching


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

NYC Plumber said:


> I can't find anything do u have a date? I don't think I'm a good with searching


Click Here


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> =Plumbing is the most cut throat trade of all, anyway to get an edge we take it I get that, but c'mon running garden hose for the domestic water system is too far.
> Things like pex, pro vents, take all the skill out of what we do. And in my opinion will be the end of plumbing as we know it.
> In 10-15 years who knows the HO probably won't even need a plumber anymore. I know flex gas piping is in the works in some parts as well, another great idea....scary.


so pex and auto vents will be the end of Plumbing...:laughing:

And that flex gas pipe ( CSST ) is def in the "works"...:laughing:




> I think we need to stop the cut throat attitude and maintain some type of standards...


I agree, we could also all hold hands ,sing songs and fly around on the good ship lollypop...:laughing:

cant we all get along? :no:


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Not sure what you laughing about next generation plumbers won't know how to solder.
Just like this generation can't pour or wipe a joint.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

And def moot looking to hold hands or get along.
Just trying to keep my trade alive. Your just to ignorant to see that.


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## grandpa (Jul 13, 2008)

As a low-tech residential service plumber, I never did or even saw a press machine. How about a 30 second summary?

Since it has o-rings....are there any knocks against it as there are against anything plastic, or for example an AAV which has a rubber seal?? Would press copper be considered to have a 50 year + life cycle, like sweat copper does???


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Moot= not ....
Sorry this auto spell thing is freakin annoying


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

You're NPC up in NY right? Same as New Jersey?


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> Not sure what you laughing about next generation plumbers won't know how to solder.
> Just like this generation can't pour or wipe a joint.


I think sweating copper will be round for many many mango seasons to come 

I dont do lead joints, I am the this generation Plumber :thumbup:

Obsolete:

_a_ *:* no longer in use or no longer useful <an _obsolete_ word>

_b_ *:* of a kind or style no longer current *:* old-fashioned <an _obsolete_ technology>


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> You're NPC up in NY right? Same as New Jersey?


No NYC has it's own code.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> And def moot looking to hold hands or get along.
> Just trying to keep my trade alive. Your just to ignorant to see that.


 
the old days of cast and copper are gone for the most part 

am i seeing that right


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

GREENPLUM said:


> I think sweating copper will be round for many many mango seasons to come
> 
> I dont do lead joints, I am the this generation Plumber :thumbup:
> 
> ...


C: a plumber with any type of skill


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

GREENPLUM said:


> the old days of cast and copper are gone for the most part
> 
> am i seeing that right


Maybe the old days wherever you are, not by me...
Thank god!


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> Maybe the old days wherever you are, not by me...
> Thank god!


 
well you know what they say about old dogs.

remember what happened to ol yeller


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

GREENPLUM said:


> And that flex gas pipe ( CSST ) is def in the "works"...:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

GREENPLUM said:


> well you know what they say about old dogs.
> 
> remember what happened to ol yeller


You think I'm old.... Lol I'm prob the youngest Master plumber in NYC.
I just respect my trade and the skill it requires. Not the monkey work you do.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> GREENPLUM said:
> 
> 
> > And that flex gas pipe ( CSST ) is def in the "works"...:laughing:
> ...


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> You think I'm old.


 
I did, but now I just think youre a dumbazz..:laughing:


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I think junior has some valid points


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Like I said I'm not looking to cut corners with gas.
I'm not running a garden hose as a gas line and calling myself a "plumber".
I'll let you blow up a few houses first to show the world that a gas line should be a rigid pipe that will protect public safety.
How to you seismically brace a garden hose anyway?..... 
Do you even carry a ruler with you to work?


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

If you agree that Plumbing is coming to a end cause pex, csst,and auto vents then quit plumbing and find somthing else to do, why stick around to the bitter end


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

GREENPLUM said:


> If you agree that Plumbing is coming to a end cause pex, csst,and auto vents then quit plumbing and find somthing else to do, why stick around to the bitter end


Lol what ignorance....


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> Lol what ignorance....


you admitted knowing nothing bout CSST and PEX

yet, its the end of the trade


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

GREENPLUM said:


> you admitted knowing nothing bout CSST and PEX
> 
> yet, its the end of the trade


???? That crap is not an approved material by me, I do read and know about it though.
I also know that you don't need a ruler, and any HO can install it with minimal skill.
How is that good for our "trade"?
And when you throw in the aav's you just eliminated an entire plumbing system and all the knowledge and skill that goes with it.
Tell me how any of this is good for the trade? You made have made a quick buck, because you undercut the previous guy who wanted to the right job. But you also lowered the bar for quality and skill involved.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

http://www.csstfacts.org/

"Most rigid steel pipe is made in Asia—with no quality control"

"With over 750 million feet installed in over 5 million homes, CSST has an outstanding safety record. When you compare CSST to black iron pipe, it is clear that the safest and best gas piping choice is a CSST system."

*What is the current code status of CSST piping?
*CSST is approved for use as a gas piping material in all national model building codes, including the _National Fuel Gas Code_, the _International Fuel Gas Code_, and the _Uniform Plumbing Code_, and is approved for use in all 50 states. U.S. buildings codes currently require ‘direct bonding' of CSST. 

*What is the approval status of black iron pipe?*
While black iron pipe is an approved material in national model building codes, it is not listed by any national standard nor tested by a third-party laboratory. In fact, most black iron pipe is imported from Asia with minimal or no documentation.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

This same discussion took place in a bar somewhere, when rubber gaskets replaced caulked joints.


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

CSST will never be sold in a hardware store...
If the supply houses do there job correctly there is no way that material should EVER reach the hands of a HO or handy hack...
Why? Because not only do you have to have a gas license you must also be certified to run whichever type of CSST you choose. Prior to all sales of such materials they are supposed to check you certifications and without the gas license the certifications me sh*t...

Yes caulking lead joints is about over. It's more about the safety of the installer and the desired to remove as much lead from the water as possible...

Adapt or become antiquated, choice is yours...


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

plumb nutz said:


> csst will never be sold in a hardware store...
> If the supply houses do there job correctly there is no way that material should ever reach the hands of a ho or handy hack...
> Why? because not only do you have to have a gas license you must also be certified to run whichever type of csst you choose. Prior to all sales of such materials they are supposed to check you certifications and without the gas license the certifications me sh*t...
> 
> ...


 






Available at a Lowes near you.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

they also sell black iron and galvy 

they will cut and thread it for anyone


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

easttexasplumb said:


> <img src="http://www.plumbingzone.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10110"/>Available at a Lowes near you.


Your kidding?
There was a lawsuit about HO installing the stuff and blew up the house...
Then the lightening issue and having to bond properly...
And your in TX, that lowest was in TX? Is that material similar to the counterstrike brand omegaflex developed?
I see liability issues everywhere...

I think that something on the federal level must be done to prevent any HO or handy hack from touching anything having to do with gas... it has nothing to do with protecting the industry but protecting everyone from the idiots...


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

A lowes in Tx, one of the member of pz posted it. I will try to find the thread.


http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/well-here-11717/


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

GREENPLUM said:


> http://www.csstfacts.org/
> 
> "Most rigid steel pipe is made in Asia&#151;with no quality control"
> 
> ...


Cmon man, you getting the info from their website.
What do you think they are gonna say? Bottom line is when people see construction costs, they always try to cut down the plumber.
They can't see it, they don't understand it, and they can't justify paying someone with their azzcrack out that kind of money.
So they come up with ways like this to make it cheaper. The people making these decisions don't care about our trade, they care about their pockets. When people get sick, or their house blows up then they will be reminded that the plumber protects the health of the nation for a reason.
I think there is a good reason that it's not approved in big cities like NYC. Maybe in rural areas you can get away with it.
But you can't argue that there is no skill involved and that was my original point.

Your really reaching on the Asia thing huh... Black pipe we use is American made.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

easttexasplumb said:


> This same discussion took place in a bar somewhere, when rubber gaskets replaced caulked joints.


I agree but the pipe wasn't being replaced with garden hose. And you still need skill and a ruler to put it together.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

plumb nutz said:


> CSST will never be sold in a hardware store...
> If the supply houses do there job correctly there is no way that material should EVER reach the hands of a HO or handy hack...
> Why? Because not only do you have to have a gas license you must also be certified to run whichever type of CSST you choose. Prior to all sales of such materials they are supposed to check you certifications and without the gas license the certifications me sh*t...
> 
> ...


They use to have the same regulation with hwh's...... That sure has changed hasn't it?
HO will def get their hands on it...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> ???? That crap is not an *approved material by me*, I do read and know about it though.


Can you send me your list of "NYC Plumber Approved Materials?"

Maybe a copy of your testing standards too... :laughing:


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> I think there is a good reason that it's not approved in big cities like NYC. Maybe in rural areas you can get away with it.
> But you can't argue that there is no skill involved and that was my original point.
> 
> Your really reaching on the Asia thing huh... Black pipe we use is American made.


 
its approved in Atlanta,, is that a big enuff city for ya?

I can argue that there is skill involved properly using CSST

what kinda pipe do you use , got some pics


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

NYC Plumber said:


> They use to have the same regulation with hwh's...... That sure has changed hasn't it?
> HO will def get their hands on it...


Well actually you ARE supposed to pull a permit for replacement of gas water heaters...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plumb nutz said:


> CSST will never be sold in a hardware store...


Yea... Just Big Orange & Blue Box Stores... :laughing:


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

Well I... I don't know....?
Go to box stores across 3 states and haven't seen it. Reps said it wouldn't. Gas inspector said no way. Gas company said impossible, but...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

plumb nutz said:


> ....I think that something on the federal level must be done to prevent any HO or handy hack from touching anything having to do with gas... it has nothing to do with protecting the industry but protecting everyone from the idiots...


What about 16' long 2x12 lumber, shingles, #4 copper wire and 200amp breaker boxes? Just as dangerous in the hands of a DIY'er on the weekend as gas pipe.

The big box ship has left the harbor and she ain't coming back.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plumb nutz said:


> Your kidding?
> There was a lawsuit about HO installing the stuff and blew up the house...
> Then the lightening issue and having to bond properly...


No he's not kidding!

They have pieces of paper there the handi hack can read and sign and he's all trained ready to go...:laughing:

Heck they can sell bottle traps if they want to...

They can also sell plumbing parts to homeowners in Massachusetts even though according to state law only a plumber may install the parts in a home even their own home... :whistling2:


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## PlumbersSanJose (May 22, 2011)

Product liability lawyers are good at making mountains out of mole hills. This press release was designed to get more people to contact the firm, is that an ambulance I hear?


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

PlumbersSanJose said:


> Product liability lawyers are good at making mountains out of mole hills. This press release was designed to get more people to contact the firm, is that an ambulance I hear?


 Y'all really need to post an introduction before you get bounced out of here.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I love how this guy (nyc plumber)c laims to be a mechanical engineer yet is unable to grasp the concept of varying materials for different environments and applications. I also find it cute how he bashes materials he knows next to nothing about and has never used or even seen installed.

Unlike you, there any many plumbers out there (like myself) who have installed both copper and pex and cpvc. I can design and install any of those systems so long as they are appropriate for the application and environment. I agree pex takes less skill and time to install. That does not make it a junk material though. 

I think block castles are much stronger buildings than the homes of today. Shall we go back to that?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Protech said:


> I love how this guy (nyc plumber)c laims to be a mechanical engineer yet is unable to grasp the concept of varying materials for different environments and applications. I also find it cute how he bashes materials he knows next to nothing about and has never used or even seen installed.
> 
> Unlike you, there any many plumbers out there (like myself) who have installed both copper and pex and cpvc. I can design and install any of those systems so long as they are appropriate for the application and environment. I agree pex takes less skill and time to install. That does not make it a junk material though.
> 
> I think block castles are much stronger buildings than the homes of today. Shall we go back to that?


 





Don't the plumbers up North use Pex for the in-floor radiant heat? (Down here in FL we don't install heating systems).

Also, with RO systems, the water is too aggressive for copper tubing so Pex tubing is used.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

To the original poster: The zurn lawsuit was for a small batch of the brass fittings that were manufactured incorrectly. It should actually be a "brass fitting lawsuit". There have been no failures in the pipes. Also, the rate of failure was less than 1%.

Just keeping things in perspective. I have installed hundreds of thousands of zurn fittings in central Florida as well as hundreds of other central Florida contractors. No failures that i know of. Point is, it was a very isolated indecent.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Both Home depot and Lowes sell CSST here in every store in the area. I spose they have decided that revenues are high enough to cover any potential lawsuits that may come along, who knows. CSST is another product that we will not install under any circumstances soley based on the liability issues associated with it and again, though it undoubtedly install faster and easier, those two are it's only assets as far as I am concerned.

There have been hundreds of pex pipe failures here and in Europe. It's just that you don't hear about them because most times the PEX companies pay off the complaint and have the homeowner and or installer sign a "shut the F up" document as a condition of payoff. But, on the whole pex is a pretty stable product that serves a large market of those that feel that speed and ease are the two more important aspects of a plumbing job.

We do install miles and miles or pex radiant around here and I see it as a better product for those installations than say copper tube was, however just like copper tube it will probably be 20 to 40 years before we find out if we guessed right or not.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Protech said:


> I love how this guy (nyc plumber)c laims to be a mechanical engineer yet is unable to grasp the concept of varying materials for different environments and applications. I also find it cute how he bashes materials he knows next to nothing about and has never used or even seen installed.
> 
> Unlike you, there any many plumbers out there (like myself) who have installed both copper and pex and cpvc. I can design and install any of those systems so long as they are appropriate for the application and environment. I agree pex takes less skill and time to install. That does not make it a junk material though.
> 
> I think block castles are much stronger buildings than the homes of today. Shall we go back to that?


I guess my first reply was to nasty and was removed so i will tone it down.
I am not claiming to be anything , i am master plumber with a mechancial engineering degree.
I do understand about all of the different types of materials and applications for all the different plumbing systems. 
I also understand about how different environments, application, and economic situation can determine what material is used. 
In my OPINION, its only an opinion, do you know what an opinion is? In my OPINION i feel this type of material is the End of this trade, mostly because it makes it to easy for the HO to install. That is only an opinion which does not mean i am right, are you with me so far?
Now i find it very funny and satisfying that you spent all morning trying to dig up old threads to try to insult me. But please stop wasting your time.
You take this site way to serious and should try to actually listen to others OPINIONS.

Please get over yourself, again its only a plumbing forum. . Was that better mods? Not for nothing but i think digging up old posts is kind of instigating no?


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

NYC Plumber said:


> I guess my first reply was to nasty and was removed so i will tone it down.
> I am not claiming to be anything , i am master plumber with a mechancial engineering degree.
> I do understand about all of the different types of materials and applications for all the different plumbing systems.
> I also understand about how different environments, application, and economic situation can determine what material is used.
> ...


 Are you even peripherally interested in interacting with your Peers on a 'Give and Take' level -- Or are you just too fuquing hung up on yourself to even bother?


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Widdershins said:


> Are you even peripherally interested in interacting with your Peers on a 'Give and Take' level -- Or are just too fuquing hung up on yourself to even bother?


O boy. Just got home and I see y'all are already at it !!!! Lol. Did everybody have s great day?? I did..... Pex does the job. But it looks like crap if you don't take time to strap and support it Here's a pic of a master plumbers work at my church... Cheap install.... I hate it. But if done properly it could look a lot better .... I prefer copper


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

NYC Plumber said:


> I guess my first reply was to nasty and was removed so i will tone it down.


That is a pretty good indicator! When they get tired of removing them they remove you! :yes:



NYC Plumber said:


> I am not claiming to be anything , i am master plumber with a mechancial engineering degree.
> I do understand about all of the different types of materials and applications for all the different plumbing systems.


I see so that makes you an expert in metallurgy and machining processes as well? :whistling2:



NYC Plumber said:


> I also understand about how different environments, application, and economic situation can determine what material is used.
> In my OPINION, its only an opinion, do you know what an opinion is? In my OPINION i feel this type of material is the End of this trade, mostly because it makes it to easy for the HO to install. That is only an opinion which does not mean i am right, are you with me so far?


Still can't realize the environment and application dictate that PEX is bar far the best choice of water supply material in ProTech's area so in order to "Protect The Trade" an inferior product should be installed giving a service life of 5 - 15 years.... :blink:



NYC Plumber said:


> Now i find it very funny and satisfying that you spent all morning trying to dig up old threads to try to insult me. But please stop wasting your time.
> You take this site way to serious and should try to actually listen to others OPINIONS.


You vastly overestimate the amount of time needed to find things that will push your buttons.... :yes:












NYC Plumber said:


> Please get over yourself, again its only a plumbing forum. . Was that better mods? Not for nothing but i think digging up old posts is kind of instigating no?


It really is a question of who needs to get over himself....


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> O boy. Just got home and I see y'all are already at it !!!! Lol. Did everybody have s great day?? I did..... Pex does the job. But it looks like crap if you don't take time to strap and support it Here's a pic of a master plumbers work at my church... Cheap install.... I hate it. But if done properly it could look a lot better .... I prefer copper


there is no way i am ever having something look like that it my own home, no freaking way LOL


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

He will get back to you in a few days.

You guy's let it die down please.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

SlickRick said:


> He will get back to you in a few days.
> 
> You guy's let it die down please.


Oh...

Didn't notice the "Registered Member" 

Thanks... Sorry Bout Dat...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I'd like to bring up a double standard here.

In Florida, when copper pipes leak in less then a decade, it's the waters fault.

In Nevada, when yellow brass pex fittings dezincafy and leak, it's the manufacturers fault for not making their material impervious to any known water supply to man. :blink:

Am I the only one who sees a double standard here?


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Bayside500 said:


> there is no way i am ever having something look like that it my own home, no freaking way LOL


I agree It will be fixed.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Pex can be a great material. If you support it properly, it can look nice. You can't just let it hang in the breeze. It's just like anything else, it has it's strenghts and weaknesses.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

SlickRick said:


> He will get back to you in a few days.
> 
> You guy's let it die down please.


 You may find this hard to believe, but there was actually a point to my line of questioning.

I sincerely hope he returns and finds his niche.

He's smart -- Very smart.

I'm really hoping we can bring him around.

He'll be a great addition once he gets over himself.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> O boy. Just got home and I see y'all are already at it !!!! Lol.


 I'm really hoping you take a couple of steps back and chill.

You do some really nice work -- I'd hate to see you banned over hubris.

We're all ball busters, each and every one of us. Take the criticism for what it is and move on.

All of us have had to take criticism from our peers.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Widdershins said:


> I'm really hoping you take a couple of steps back and chill.
> 
> You do some really nice work -- I'd hate to see you banned over hubris.
> 
> ...


Mr wid. I think you took my comments the wrong way. I was just pointing out that there was a bunch of arguing goin on already.... And was trying to break the tension bay asking how everbodys day was.... I don't want to argue with anybody or instigate any thing I did have a good day and would like to see peace on pz . Thank you for the complement and I would sincerely like to see some of your work. I find it interesting to see pics and learn from others... As far as criticism I can take it I promise you that. The past is the past and I am over it .... So please dont take me the wrong way. I had to google " hubris". Lol. I know I can be smart but this wasn't one of those times... I am not perfect and only a journeyman but I want to learn and I think I can also give back some to.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Mr wid. I think you took my comments the wrong way. I was just pointing out that there was a bunch of arguing goin on already.... And was trying to break the tension bay asking how everbodys day was.... I don't want to argue with anybody or instigate any thing I did have a good day and would like to see peace on pz . Thank you for the complement and I would sincerely like to see some of your work. I find it interesting to see pics and learn from others... As far as criticism I can take it I promise you that. The past is the past and I am over it .... So please dont take me the wrong way. I had to google " hubris". Lol. I know I can be smart but this wasn't one of those times... I am not perfect and only a journeyman but I want to learn and I think I can also give back some to.


That clinches it -- I'm going to have to go out and buy another camera.

Peace?


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Widdershins said:


> That clinches it -- I'm going to have to go out and buy another camera.
> 
> Peace?


I don't get the camera comment???


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I don't get the camera comment???


Never Mind I get it. And yes peace on pz


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> That clinches it -- I'm going to have to go out and buy another camera.
> 
> Peace?


Get a room!

(c'mon, someone was going to say it... )

:laughing:

In other news I saw a commercial today about the Kitec lawsuit for the first time. It stated that if you wanted to jump on the lawsuit locomotive, "call the number at the bottom of your screen..."

I used to do resi lot servicing for an excavation company locally (southern Ontario) and when copper scrap hit over $4/lb, we switched to Kitec. I buried MILES of the stuff over a little better than a year.

Only connections I ever made were to the curb-stop with a stainless sleeve and a hose Bibb on the other end with a ss oeteker clip. I wonder...


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

U666A, does your signature line say, "What's with the hats, are you going bald?" ? It's been quite along time since I studied mon francais, mon ami.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> U666A, does your signature line say, "What's with the hats, are you going bald?" ? It's been quite along time since I studied mon francais, mon ami.


Oui il fait.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Merci beaucoup monsieur. Nous avons deux ou trois hommes que parlent francais ici. Tres bien!


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

What is with the hats, you going bald


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Sorry WS, :laughing: I didn't mean for it :laughing: to go down :laughing: this way :laughing:

Wow! That's the closest I've come to wetting myself in 25 years! HAHAHA

Yes, yes it does... :laughing:


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## Ashleymc (Nov 14, 2009)

*You mean??*

That Rich Trethewy on this old house is properly compensated for all that high tech Sh-t he promotes on the show??
I dont even own pex tool..or ever install radiant heat or heat pumps or that crap you hang on the wall for hot water and sometimes heat too.
Design Engineers and their bosses are idiots..But it sure works great in the lab!! 110% efficent! Yeah when it aint working..hahahah

grandpa always said keep it simple stupid!


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Yep, I likes to heat my house with a 100 year old coal fired boiler and gravity heat. Cost's me about 17 grand a year but by god that old time technology sure works good :thumbsup:


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Yep, I likes to heat my house with a 100 year old coal fired boiler and gravity heat. Cost's me about 17 grand a year but by god that old time technology sure works good :thumbsup:


 
holy crap. 17 grand a year?


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