# Tankless Water Heater Gas Lines



## JGrif (Jan 19, 2010)

In my area I see alot of tankless water heaters being put in by plumbing contractors who do not upgrade the gas line. Every time I go to a customers home to install a tankless the calculations of the existing gas system do not support the additional BTU's of a tankless. So what usually needs to happen is the gas system gets upgraded or a dedicated gas line gets ran from the meter to the tankless. I sometimes (most of the time) don't get the job because the cost to uprade the gas system puts my price above my competitions. Maybe I need to be a better salesman. Does anybody else deal with this? This irritates the crap out of me!


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

theres alot of hacks in are state that hookin up units with 5/8 gas flexs... i've noticed if it can be done most legit guys offset this by selling outdoor units near the meter..


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

If they don't take your bid just leave them your card and tell them to call you when it doesn't work correctly. 







Paul


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

We see it down here too, this is where the homework you've done pays off. Explain how the gas system needs to be sized properly to fuel the fixtures, why proper venting needs to be installed and why not doing this properly may save money up front but lead to premature failure of their unit later.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

I've all but given up on tankless because of crap like this.


"The other guy didn't say we needed a bigger gas line"

"The other guy said it could be vented into the old water heater flue"

"You're just trying to sell us work we don't need"

I get very few tankless jobs that I look at. I guess I'm a crappy salesman.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I dont try to sell anyone anything. Its not worth the trouble really. The gas supplier here is installing them without a profit from the job. Cant compete with that.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I dont try to sell anyone anything. Its not worth the trouble really. The gas supplier here is installing them without a profit from the job. Cant compete with that.


Utility companies are not supposed to be selling services like that. I know a while back NiCor Gas was selling water heaters and installing them, they got in huge trouble since no contractor was able to compete with them. The only thing they can do for a homeowner beyond the gas meter is trace and tag leaks.

Now if I can figure out who got the gas company and how they got them in trouble I can apply that to what some of the cities and villages are doing around here with sewer work. The city of Naperville is installing clean outs on the home owner property 10 to 15' from the house, power rodding the sewer to the street then lining the sewer from the clean out to the street. I am so glad I found this out when I did cause that year I was going to invest in a lining system. Other towns I know will rod a main sewer for the homeowner for $45. Its hard enough for us to compete with other contractors, but it is imposable for us to compete with a municipality.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> Utility companies are not supposed to be selling services like that. I know a while back NiCor Gas was selling water heaters and installing them, they got in huge trouble since no contractor was able to compete with them. The only thing they can do for a homeowner beyond the gas meter is trace and tag leaks.
> 
> Now if I can figure out who got the gas company and how they got them in trouble I can apply that to what some of the cities and villages are doing around here with sewer work. The city of Naperville is installing clean outs on the home owner property 10 to 15' from the house, power rodding the sewer to the street then lining the sewer from the clean out to the street. I am so glad I found this out when I did cause that year I was going to invest in a lining system. Other towns I know will rod a main sewer for the homeowner for $45. Its hard enough for us to compete with other contractors, but it is imposable for us to compete with a municipality.


 The power co and the gas company both work on appliances and install water heaters here. They hire sub contractors to do the work and then put the job cost on their utility bill. Profit is not the objective. The gas company is the worst of the two.....they really do things for cheap. Infact if you have a gas water heater and you threaten to change it to electric...they will GIVE you a brand new free gas water heater and deliver it. Installation is left to you or they will install it cheap cheap. All this is fact...I already knew it but I confirmed it yesterday.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> Utility companies are not supposed to be selling services like that. I know a while back NiCor Gas was selling water heaters and installing them, they got in huge trouble since no contractor was able to compete with them. The only thing they can do for a homeowner beyond the gas meter is trace and tag leaks.
> 
> Now if I can figure out who got the gas company and how they got them in trouble I can apply that to what some of the cities and villages are doing around here with sewer work. The city of Naperville is installing clean outs on the home owner property 10 to 15' from the house, power rodding the sewer to the street then lining the sewer from the clean out to the street. I am so glad I found this out when I did cause that year I was going to invest in a lining system. Other towns I know will rod a main sewer for the homeowner for $45. Its hard enough for us to compete with other contractors, but it is imposable for us to compete with a municipality.


Nicor outright owns several heating and air companies, including D.M. Dykstra out of Crestwood.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

The gas company here will replace your water heater at no up front cost. They charge you about 20$ a month extra on your bill. I believe this also includes servicing the WH if you have any problems.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

JGrif said:


> In my area I see alot of tankless water heaters being put in by plumbing contractors who do not upgrade the gas line. Every time I go to a customers home to install a tankless the calculations of the existing gas system do not support the additional BTU's of a tankless. So what usually needs to happen is the gas system gets upgraded or a dedicated gas line gets ran from the meter to the tankless. I sometimes (most of the time) don't get the job because the cost to uprade the gas system puts my price above my competitions. Maybe I need to be a better salesman. Does anybody else deal with this? This irritates the crap out of me!


Don't your inspectors usually pick up on this?


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## longplumb (Nov 15, 2009)

I have pretty much given up on tankless here also because of the same reasons. It has been a waste of time to price these for people and try to explain the proper installation to the people. They look at you like you are full of sh!t. We also have the problem with very hard water here, and the people don't do proper maintenance on them, so it is our fault when they plug up with minerals.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

The tankless manufacturers are aware of this and are working on some kind of solution for it. They are all but saying you need a softener in order to maintain your warranty. I'm good at selling them, but I have been at it a while. I don't always recommend a tankless but they do work great when all the planning and considerations are met



longplumb said:


> I have pretty much given up on tankless here also because of the same reasons. It has been a waste of time to price these for people and try to explain the proper installation to the people. They look at you like you are full of sh!t. We also have the problem with very hard water here, and the people don't do proper maintenance on them, so it is our fault when they plug up with minerals.


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## Nevada Plumber (Jan 3, 2009)

My power company sells Rheem Marathon water heaters for over $100 cheaper then I can buy them at a supply house. They also started doing solar water heater installs, and will roll the cost of them into your power bill. My water heater business has been way down because of that.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

What about putting together a literature pack using the code book and manufacturers requirements to teach the customer?


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

JK949 said:


> What about putting together a literature pack using the code book and manufacturers requirements to teach the customer?


That may work for some. But many others like the ones you see asking advice on the DIY forums do not care about code. I here this all the time, and when I do I just pack up and leave. " I do not need to follow the plumbing code, it is my home and I can do what I want to my plumbing."


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## JGrif (Jan 19, 2010)

pauliplumber said:


> Don't your inspectors usually pick up on this?


The ones that I see the inspectors must not be picking up on it or there was no permit pulled in the first place.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

I just looked at one this week. HO says it shouldn't be too big a deal to install since the gas and water are already there and he's priced a (Bosch) unit at Ho Depot. Water supply and gas are both 1/2" coming into the room. :no: Gas meter is only 20' away but gas piping is concealed in the kitchen and dining room ceilings.
I advised the homeowner and ran thru some options that would result in a tankless install that'd acually _work_ but he insists that the extra work isn't neccesary 'cause the guy at HO Depot says so. 

This is still in the works but I'm pretty sure I won't get this one simply because of the bogus "_advice_" he's getting from unqualified ppl. Too bad too, there's a nice bathroom addition as part of the job.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Sometimes its possible to change the service regulator to a 2lb system and install regs at all the appliances. Use the existing gas pipe to run the tankless.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Miguel said:


> I just looked at one this week. HO says it shouldn't be too big a deal to install since the gas and water are already there and he's priced a (Bosch) unit at Ho Depot. Water supply and gas are both 1/2" coming into the room. :no: Gas meter is only 20' away but gas piping is concealed in the kitchen and dining room ceilings.
> I advised the homeowner and ran thru some options that would result in a tankless install that'd acually _work_ but he insists that the extra work isn't neccesary 'cause the guy at HO Depot says so.
> 
> This is still in the works but I'm pretty sure I won't get this one simply because of the bogus "_advice_" he's getting from unqualified ppl. Too bad too, there's a nice bathroom addition as part of the job.


 
sadly people will listen to that don't know what they are talking about and believe then only becuase it's what they want to hear.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Sometimes its possible to change the service regulator to a 2lb system and install regs at all the appliances. Use the existing gas pipe to run the tankless.


Y'know, TM, that's not a bad idea. Except the gas co. here really frowns on anything more'n 1/2# in residential applications so they really make you bend over backwards and generally give you a hard time when you even suggest it. But it's worth a look.

'preciate the suggestion as I'll have to admit that I didn't even consider it.


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