# Talk about 'Between a rock and a hard place'



## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

So I'm bidding on a doctors office and the owner just so happens to be my brother.

He has a well reputable GC that is known for his craftsmanship.

The GC has his typical crew of subs.

The GC knows me and knows that it makes sense to open the job up for others subs to competitively bid against each other. So he asks for our MEP company and others to bid the MEP as well. We are a big company that generally can't compete against the small timers but we still try to bid on as many things as we can get to. This one being family.

The project still hasn't been completely engineered (no thanks to the architect, when I say engineered I mean by the subs, GC, owner). I came up with a good design that my brother likes and threw a plumbing price for it. My brother still doesn't have all spec's on his surgery rooms so we can't accurately give him a med gas price yet. So we gave him a budget price for the med gas (based off previous similar jobs) on top of my plumbing proposal.

The GC's plumber beat me by 10,000 dollars and I know he didn't include what I included in my proposal/ plumbing design for the building (which is why I wrote an intensely detailed proposal so as to protect my brother when the time comes to hold the other plumber to the flames come time to write the contract out.


Point being though, is that the GC's plumber had a falling out with his son (who also holds a PC license). The son split apart from his father and started his own business and took some of the best guys with him, INCLUDING THE MAN THAT HOLDS THE ASSE 6010 med gas installer license.

So here I am knowing that the GC's plumber is not certified to install the medgas. This job is to start in about 2 months. 

Should I:
a) Do nothing at all and assume the plumber can get certified in that time frame so as to help my brother save 10,000 dollars?
or
b) tell the boss of my company who will probably make a huge stink of it all and call the inspector on it?
or
c) get my brother to have them install the plumbing and ask them where's there license to install the medgas after the plumbing is in?


Any help would be greatly appreciated!! 
:blink:


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

Well that's a hard one. The co. Is not yours right so ucant really give him a better deal can u. As for the no med liscense that work hasn't started yet so u really can't say they not gonna have someone certified by then right. So u really can't say nothing now, u have to wait till the med gas starts rolling to ask. And do not ask after work is complete but when work is starting. We had a co accidently cross med gas lines they didn't find out till after two month of the clinic being open.every body got sued even the clinic. So wait till the work is starting then ask


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

revenge said:


> And do not ask after work is complete but when work is starting. We had a co accidently cross med gas lines they didn't find out till after two month of the clinic being open.every body got sued even the clinic. So wait till the work is starting then ask



Thanks, I didn't even think about that possibly happening. Lawyers going after the owner too? That's crazy but sounds like something a lawyer would do.

I will keep that in mind when the time comes.


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## drtyhands (Aug 16, 2008)

Your brother is most likely a pretty savy guy.Let him know the variables.
Even if you don't get the job I'd imagine your still gonna walk it,if not for just plain curiosity.


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

What do you guys think about getting my brother to ask for a P and P bond or a Bid bond? 
Wouldn't there be any advantage with demanding such (I'm asking because bonds are not my specialty)?

I know our medgas prices are just budgets (and the GC's plumber probably did a fixture count estimate for the plumbing) and that it would be best for my brother to get that priced out again once he has all the equipment specd out by the dental supply company he's using. But either way I will never be able to drop my price down 10,000 dollars.

And if you are wondering, my brother needs a price now so he can get the damn bank to release the loan for the buying the building and the construction cost to remodel it.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

I think the med gas license should brought to the attention of the gc and your brother, because that's a serious issue that can put lives at risk.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

6th Density said:


> What do you guys think about getting my brother to ask for a P and P bond or a Bid bond?


 AFAIK, you can't have one without the other.

Considering the scope of the project and degree of liability should something go wrong, a Bid Bond and Payment and Performance Bond makes good sense.

I'd advise your brother to hire a lawyer to go over each and every subs contract to ensure that liability for payment falls to the GC and not to him.

A smart Sub knows how to skirt the intent of a P&P Bond, I should know, I've done it myself plenty of times.


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## drtyhands (Aug 16, 2008)

That right there is a red flag.
Hurry?
Most know that anytime something is kicked off in a rush things continue in a downhill progression and is much harder to get turned, if at all.

Plumbing has it's problem line items.
Demo,steel stud and drywall is monkey work and gets money into the GC's pocket so framing is up in two days getting the owners all uppity thinking they're going to be in fast.Then mechanicals bring everyone back to earth.

How do the other HVAC contractor's numbers compare to this GC.
Electrician's number's got to be pretty important I would think?


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

I am just surprised you're not asked to do it for free.


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

ChrisConnor said:


> I am just surprised you're not asked to do it for free.



He's an oral surgeon, he can afford it!!:thumbup:


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

drtyhands said:


> That right there is a red flag.
> Hurry?
> Most know that anytime something is kicked off in a rush things continue in a downhill progression and is much harder to get turned, if at all.
> 
> ...


Still haven't heard any electrical numbers yet. But we know at least one panel has to move along with all the comms and security alarm system. 
I doubt the other electrician caught that, because the GC was a little shocked at our price.


The other HVAC number was only around 4 to 5 thousand to just move grills. But sometimes the small timers don't think everything through. Our HVAC estimator and I are still trying to engineer the equipment room that going to contain the vacuum pump and the gas cylinder closet. We are running cfm loads on the new dimensional layout to make sure the existing system has enough. The previous doctor/owner had to install a minisplit system to the from of the building because his girls were complaining of getting too hot. Probably going to move the minisplit to the equipment room so as to keep that room conditioned for heat buildup and stop the risk of smells (potential vacuum container spills), med gas leakage, an excessive heat returning into 1 of the 2 existing air handlers. Which whould permeate it thoughout half the building.


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> I think the med gas license should brought to the attention of the gc and your brother, because that's a serious issue that can put lives at risk.


Thanks,
And the more I think about it. Both systems will be getting installed at the same time. So I really can sit back and watch them just install the plumbing. The Med Gas will obviously have in-wall rough-in as well.


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> AFAIK, you can't have one without the other.
> 
> Considering the scope of the project and degree of liability should something go wrong, a Bid Bond and Payment and Performance Bond makes good sense.
> 
> ...



Thanks man,

I appreciate all the help. I'm so glad I asked you guys. I will pass this on to my brother.:yes:


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## drtyhands (Aug 16, 2008)

6th Density said:


> Still haven't heard any electrical numbers yet. But we know at least one panel has to move along with all the comms and security alarm system.
> I doubt the other electrician caught that, because the GC was a little shocked at our price.
> 
> 
> The other HVAC number was only around 4 to 5 thousand to just move grills. But sometimes the small timers don't think everything through. Our HVAC estimator and I are still trying to engineer the equipment room that going to contain the vacuum pump and the gas cylinder closet. We are running cfm loads on the new dimensional layout to make sure the existing system has enough. The previous doctor/owner had to install a minisplit system to the from of the building because his girls were complaining of getting too hot. Probably going to move the minisplit to the equipment room so as to keep that room conditioned for heat buildup and stop the risk of smells (potential vacuum container spills), med gas leakage, an excessive heat returning into 1 of the 2 existing air handlers. Which whould permeate it thoughout half the building.


 Your brother's fortunate to have you.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I suggest that you protect your brother as best possible...
.give him fair warning as to what lies ahead and leave it at that...


on a side note... 

how come your brother is a doctor and you are a plumber.
...what happenned there anyway???:laughing:


if you are still young enough, 
I think that your consullting fees should include
 putting you through medicle school...unless you are in 
love with plumbing.:yes::yes:


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

LOL Master Mark.

Trust me I was raised with the idea that "if you don't go to college you'll end up working the rest of your life at Mcdonalds!"

I completely and utterly despise college. How someone can bust their ass through highschool, get to college and have to repeat the same classes over again for the first 2 years (at a ridiculous price mind you) before you can even get into the core classes. And by God you better know what you want to do with the rest of you life by then or they will start trying to kick you out if you don't graduate soon.

I hope the online college craze starts causing colleges all across the nation to start going bankrupt. 

No Mark, hands on experience was the only way to fly for me. I got a plumbing license/career and got paid to get it!!

Which one makes more sense? LOL:thumbup:


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

6th Density said:


> LOL Master Mark.
> 
> Trust me I was raised with the idea that "if you don't go to college you'll end up working the rest of your life at Mcdonalds!"
> 
> ...


There is more to a college education than you might believe. There is also more benefit to it than you are seeing. It was not for you, great, nice to hear you took your own path. 

Now, as for the cost, online is just as expensive, and the ones you want to go bankrupt were smart enough to lead the new charge in education.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Indie said:


> There is more to a college education than you might believe. There is also more benefit to it than you are seeing. It was not for you, great, nice to hear you took your own path.


Ditto :yes:


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## surfdog (Oct 20, 2011)

doing dental office now all the med gas is self containe in each chair elemanating med gas lines and third party inspection all we did was vacuum and air and plumbing


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> I suggest that you protect your brother as best possible...
> .give him fair warning as to what lies ahead and leave it at that...
> 
> 
> I'm with this statement !!!


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

When you were informed that your price was $10K high, were you able to communicate to your brother the distinct possibility that the scopes of work provided by the various subs may not have been apples to apples? Price disparity isn't always generated by higher costs of production. Sometimes it's as simple as "what did the low guy forget to include". Since you said your proposal was very detailed, and if you really want the job, I would suggest you ask your brother to study the proposals and if necessary, ask questions of the low bidder, especially if his bid is not totally clear on what he is or isn't providing.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Just curious, 6th Density. Why did you place this thread in the Code section of the forum?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

forgot to mention

you might want to point out to your brother the differences between the bids, show him what 
apples and apples should add up to ......

perhaps looking over their bid would be a helpful thing to do  to point out what they left out


if the low guy gets the job , you could check out their workmanship, then you will probably be a thorn in their side for the whole project......

I would be willing to be a total prick if it was for my brother:laughing::yes:


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

surfdog said:


> doing dental office now all the med gas is self containe in each chair elemanating med gas lines and third party inspection all we did was vacuum and air and plumbing


Thanks surfdog.

You got a make and model number for those chairs?
I'd like to see the specs on them.

My brother goes to Patterson dental supply in a week to pick and choose all the dental equipment he needs.

I'm sure he would want to look into that. He's planning on six surgery rooms because at some point he plans on renting out the other half of the building to another dentist or oral surgeon.


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

Plumbus said:


> Just curious, 6th Density. Why did you place this thread in the Code section of the forum?



I don't know now that you mention it. Code violation? I guess I should have put it in the general.


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

Plumbus said:


> When you were informed that your price was $10K high, were you able to communicate to your brother the distinct possibility that the scopes of work provided by the various subs may not have been apples to apples? Price disparity isn't always generated by higher costs of production. Sometimes it's as simple as "what did the low guy forget to include". Since you said your proposal was very detailed, and if you really want the job, I would suggest you ask your brother to study the proposals and if necessary, ask questions of the low bidder, especially if his bid is not totally clear on what he is or isn't providing.



Thanks, 

It has worked out for the better, after talking to my brother this morning he is going to call up the GC and tell him to use us instead just because he concerned with the situation as a whole. One of those things where hard work pays off. Our electrical number was competitive as well. The air really doesn't have to much involved with it other than double checking the cfm loads for the new rooms (which our company has already done) and adjusting grills accordingly. So hopefully we can get the whole MEP combo!
:thumbup:

I appreciate all the help guys


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## surfdog (Oct 20, 2011)

the med gas is not in the chair itself its at a station in the cubicle at a station the med gas is in smaller gas bottles with all the hoses and proper fittings the gasses are not run from a central location which will eliminate the piping system i dont know who furnishes this


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

surfdog said:


> the med gas is not in the chair itself its at a station in the cubicle at a station the med gas is in smaller gas bottles with all the hoses and proper fittings the gasses are not run from a central location which will eliminate the piping system i dont know who furnishes this


Thanks for the info Surf Dog. 
My brother wants to keep the centralized system to minimize changing out gas cylinders. I talked to the Patterson rep. today. I've got to admit I don't know why Level 3 dental offices would want to go any other way. Yes they are a little higher priced than having the plumber get a med gas vendor supply the equipment so the plumber can provide, install, and pipe all. But the dentist will already have to buy equipment from a vendor. This company gives the complete package. Heck, even one of the med gas vendors I use who makes most of his business off of Level 2 and Level 1 systems said that even though the price might be a little high, it's worth the money. Patterson will have a rep stop by once a week to make sure everything is running smoothly with the med gas. Heck even the surgery room cabinetry and countertops include built in sinks. I already had to give my brother a 1,500 dollar deduct for that, because all I have to do is connect to them now. 

Anyways, what a stress reliever on a remodel with med gas.

Thanks for all the help guys. That other plumber that gave the typical "includes all plumbing" proposal for 31,000 dollars will get beat by a big company plumber who actually stuck with it and won by a simple little extra effort. I'm at a revised price of 19,300 for the plumbing alone. That's a big gap when all I have to do is install the piping and get an independent entity to certify the system.:thumbup:


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## Mr Jay (Nov 10, 2011)

"C"


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## damnplumber (Jan 22, 2012)

*How can you bid on an an incomplete plan?*

Sounds to me like you gave a preliminary proposal based on an assumption of scope of work. Anyway what is the most ethical way of handling this you can ask yourself? That you have to answer for yourself. You have a right to post a complaint that the PC isn't qualified to do the job. For your brother's best interest, He needs to know this as soon as possible I feel. Or just wait for the "I told you so" but that will cause delays in the project and your brother may be ultimately the one that gets hurt because of schedualling delays.


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

Firstly, sorry to hear your brother is only a surgeon. I guess not everyone can be a plumber. Your parents are likely still proud of him in his own way though. I hope you don't rub it in.


Now. Since when does the lowest bid rule? Just because they came in 10K less on the job (of unknown total cost), should not mean they automatically shoe in. Considering the monkies with the pinky rings haven't yet finalized everything, it would be premature for the GC to award the contract to anyone while bidding on vapour.

My .02 CAD


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I am betting your brother likes you and definitely knows your ability to plumb. He must also know the reputation of your company and their professionalism. I am sure he understands that people pay him due to him knowing where to make the cut in a human body and he probably does it very well. I would ask him how much the ten grand means to him knowing the difference between quality and not so good quality.

Just sayin ask him to demand that you and your company do the job


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I'd tell him you are going to get some oral surgery done but your HMO says he's too expensive and they've got this guy offa CraigsList.... :laughing:


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