# Why Kohler completely sucks!



## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

1. They believe their faucets will never wear out.

2. Because of the above, they make so few repair parts there is only one place that sells repair parts in the Fort Worth area and maybe one more in Dallas. That's it.

3. They won't sell faucet repair parts to Lowe's or let Danco make knock off parts to sell to Lowe's.

Now I admit that number 3 is an assumption. But it is based on the idiot lady at Lowe's telling me the first two. That place Blowe's.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

The ceramic disc lav stems have been doing ok--are sometimes hard to unscrew.
The k-304 press bal tub/shr valve body is a leaker after a few years and a new spool is sometimes needed instead of just the seals--I prefer Delta.
The Grohe Ive put in 18 plus years ago is doing well.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

This is why I push Delta/Moen. Not necessarily better faucets, just easier to stock parts for and repair.


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## tooslow (Jul 17, 2009)

chicago faucets, like their phrase says, last as long as the building.


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

With all due respect, y'all are missing the point of my post.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I hear ya. I've installed one owner supplied *Kohler*. Yanked out a bunch. When I did resi, I pushed *Moen/Delta.* Now for commercial it's all *Chicago*, baby. Try getting parts for a *Reliance *bar faucet.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

22rifle said:


> 1. They believe their faucets will never wear out.
> 
> 2. Because of the above, they make so few repair parts there is only one place that sells repair parts in the Fort Worth area and maybe one more in Dallas. That's it.
> 
> ...



1. All faucets will eventually wear out. 

2. Completely wrong. Do a google search for your part number like I just did and you will find hundreds of hits for parts for sale. The new kitchen and bath faucets are high quality compared to any Delta or Moen plastic garbage out there. I now exclusively sell Kohler kitchen and bath faucets, nothing else. I carry the "Forte", the "Fairfax" and a few others. I have sold quite a few so far with zero recalls.
If you would look at the Kohler "Faucets" catalog dated Feb. 2009 you would see that parts for the dozens of faucets they sell are on one half of a page, 7 different cartridges and that's for all the single handle and two handle faucets they carry. It just doesn't get any easier.

3. Why would a professional plumber want high quality Kohler parts made by Danco or what have you? Why would we want the parts sold at Blowes? Why are you even at Blowes asking these questions?:laughing:

This is my most common kitchen I install, the Forte. Great super heavy faucet.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Easy now....Kohler makes crap too and the parts change constantly. Kohler makes 3 parts to do the job that one can do....so they over engineer their products. They also install some of their faucet stems with impact air wrenchs at the factory making them very diffecult to remove in the field. The reason Kohler makes their parts different all the time is becuase their patent runs out and can be copied.....if they constanly change,their will not be enough of that model faucet for danco to make re-make and be profitable. You cant walk into Lowes or homey depot and buy anything kohler but a new faucet.....You can buy both moen and delta cartridges all day at either. Kohler is over priced and quality has continued to slip over the past 20 years. They also make some crappy toilets too...the Kohler rialto was one of the worst toilets made.......because they like to make things "special". I bet Kohler makes 15 different flappers for various toilets.....thats piss poor engineering. American standard is about the same as in they want to be different so badly that they end up making crap just so they can be different. Kohlers Forte and their master shower valve that flows about 19 gal a minute is the ony two faucets I'd install and feel ok about it. I can walk into a house and if I see Delta I automaticlly know i can get parts for it or already have them or i can call my local rep and he will give them to me for free. Kohler cant touch the customer service i get with Delta here.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Easy now....Kohler makes crap too and the parts change constantly. Kohler makes 3 parts to do the job that one can do....so they over engineer their products. They also install some of their faucet stems with impact air wrenchs at the factory making them very diffecult to remove in the field. The reason Kohler makes their parts different all the time is becuase their patent runs out and can be copied.....if they constanly change,their will not be enough of that model faucet for danco to make re-make and be profitable. You cant walk into Lowes or homey depot and buy anything kohler but a new faucet.....You can buy both moen and delta cartridges all day at either. Kohler is over priced and quality has continued to slip over the past 20 years. They also make some crappy toilets too...the Kohler rialto was one of the worst toilets made.......because they like to make things "special". I bet Kohler makes 15 different flappers for various toilets.....thats piss poor engineering. American standard is about the same as in they want to be different so badly that they end up making crap just so they can be different. Kohlers Forte and their master shower valve that flows about 19 gal a minute is the ony two faucets I'd install and feel ok about it. I can walk into a house and if I see Delta I automaticlly know i can get parts for it or already have them or i can call my local rep and he will give them to me for free. Kohler cant touch the customer service i get with Delta here.


You're talking about Kohler 20 years ago because I know you're not talking about Kohler faucets sold today. They don't make three parts instead of one. For the faucets there is ONE part, one easy to remove and install cartridge, that's all. They won't be making the parts different for these faucets, how could they? I see you haven't put in a Kohler in a long time. I Know, it's easier to pick up the cheap delta's and moens, I used to do the same thing until they turned to crap.
Also, Kohler is far from being overpriced. The above faucet (Forte) is five times as heavy as any delta or moen, brass construction etc. Lists for 154, my cost is 85 bucks. . Good luck with the new delta and moen plastic garbage, I'm not touching it.:thumbup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ironranger said:


> You're talking about Kohler 20 years ago because I know you're not talking about Kohler faucets sold today. They don't make three parts instead of one. For the faucets there is ONE part, one easy to remove and install cartridge, that's all. They won't be making the parts different for these faucets, how could they? I see you haven't put in a Kohler in a long time. I Know, it's easier to pick up the cheap delta's and moens, I used to do the same thing until they turned to crap.
> Also, Kohler is far from being overpriced. The above faucet (Forte) is five times as heavy as any delta or moen, brass construction etc. Lists for 154, my cost is 85 bucks. I sell them for 385 installed and that's my cheap faucet!!!!. Good luck with the new delta and moen plastic garbage, I'm not touching it.:thumbup:


 Kohler maybe better supported for you iron....its not supported down south very well. I could give every faucet manufacturer a few tips but it all goes back to money with all of them and ease of assembly FOR THEM. Here are my complaints..Kohler=over priced hard to get parts. Moen= handle adapters and crappy two handle faucets. Delta= crappy designed cartridge removel nut and set screws that wont come out. Out of all three Delta is the most supported in my area. The rep here for delta gives me repair parts because i sell so much delta.....so parts are not an issue and all delta are water tested at the factory. Full factory lifetime warranty on any faucet made after 1996 for the original owner. I have Delta select and Grohe in my house......8 years and only repair was two seats and springs in my shower. The grohe is a ladylux plus made out of a solid block of stainless......Its my favorite kitchen pull out faucet but its 500 bucks!


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I would also like to add to this thread that 99% of feeze up problems with the cartridge nuts and frozen allen style set screws commonly found in todays faucet handles and stuck cartridges can be totally eliminated by applying plumbers grease on all screws and threads/cartridge when they are new and being installed or repaired. Its nice when things come apart. Owners will let packings and stems leak for along time and that corrodes everything together. Then they finally call when the faucet is dripping constantly or running,everything is all corroded together by then. grease stops that from happening. I wish the manufactures would learn that and practice it. It would save them a fortune in sending out new handles and stems because you had to break it apart. new construction plumbers are for sure not going to do it on their jobs....99% of them have no idea what faucet grease is or have only used it once while in school.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Kohler maybe better supported for you iron....its not supported down south very well. I could give every faucet manufacturer a few tips but it all goes back to money with all of them and ease of assembly FOR THEM. Here are my complaints..Kohler=over priced hard to get parts. Moen= handle adapters and crappy two handle faucets. Delta= crappy designed cartridge removel nut and set screws that wont come out. Out of all three Delta is the most supported in my area. The rep here for delta gives me repair parts because i sell so much delta.....so parts are not an issue and all delta are water tested at the factory. Full factory lifetime warranty on any faucet made after 1996 for the original owner. I have Delta select and Grohe in my house......8 years and only repair was two seats and springs in my shower. The grohe is a ladylux plus made out of a solid block of stainless......Its my favorite kitchen pull out faucet but its 500 bucks!


 The ladylux heads used to have problems but call grohe america customer service and they send a free one out. 
Ferguson has kept decent Kohler stock here but I take a delta 10000 over a k 304 anyday.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

stillaround said:


> The ladylux heads used to have problems but call grohe america customer service and they send a free one out.
> Ferguson has kept decent Kohler stock here but I take a delta 10000 over a k 304 anyday.


 Fegi stocks a full line of repair parts for all the Kohler they sell?? My experience has been they dont and dont giva crap about ordering it for you either because they aren't making any money on it. Call the factory and you sit on hold for 30 min. I'm not into that game. Hey and i'm not only picking on Kohler about the non-stocking of repair parts. Ive never seen a supply house that does stock very many repair parts at all of any brand. The faucet manufacturers should be MADE to have repair parts AT their dealers and points of sale for their warranty. That way the customer doesn't hafta wait on parts for a few days and the warranty would be useful.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

No argument there. Also my problem with the k304 ... you can buy a new rough in valve for the part cost of the yoke and spool.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Fegi stocks a full line of repair parts for all the Kohler they sell?? My experience has been they dont and dont giva crap about ordering it for you either because they aren't making any money on it. Call the factory and you sit on hold for 30 min. I'm not into that game. Hey and i'm not only picking on Kohler about the non-stocking of repair parts. Ive never seen a supply house that does stock very many repair parts at all of any brand. The faucet manufacturers should be MADE to have repair parts AT their dealers and points of sale for their warranty. That way the customer doesn't hafta wait on parts for a few days and the warranty would be useful.


You can order Kohler parts direct from their website, it usually takes a couple of days for them to arrive.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Killertoiletspider said:


> You can order Kohler parts direct from their website, it usually takes a couple of days for them to arrive.


 And for those couple days what do you do with the tub valve thats running 4gpm with no integral stops? Sure would be nice to go down to the local DEALER and pickup a cartridge wouldn't it?:yes: Oh yeah the tubs are set back to back too so theres no way to install cutoffs. Been there done that:whistling2:


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

I'm ordering the repair cartridges to have in stock for the faucets I'm installing from Kohler. I feel it's my responsibility to have the parts on hand, not my supplier. Killertoiletspider is correct, parts only take a couple of days. Aslo I've called Kohler a few times and have gotten through in less than two minutes every time.
I think this all comes down to what's easier for some, sometimes you have to make a little effort for quality.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

ironranger said:


> I'm ordering the repair cartridges to have in stock for the faucets I'm installing from Kohler. I feel it's my responsibility to have the parts on hand, not my supplier. Killertoiletspider is correct, parts only take a couple of days. Aslo I've called Kohler a few times and have gotten through in less than two minutes every time.
> I think this all comes down to what's easier for some, sometimes you have to make a little effort for quality.


It most definately the suppliers responsibility. your logic is you should have repair parts for what you sell, So true that includes the suppliers. and what about the ones you didn't install?


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Plumber Jim said:


> It most definately the suppliers responsibility. your logic is you should have repair parts for what you sell, So true that includes the suppliers. and what about the ones you didn't install?


The ones I don't install? Customer can wait just like any other part I would have to order for them. 
My supplier doesn't even stock most of the Kohler faucets I'm installing, those are also ordered for me. I don't see how it's a problem regarding parts if I have them on hand, in stock. What's the problem? So far I haven't even needed a part!:thumbsup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ironranger said:


> The ones I don't install? Customer can wait just like any other part I would have to order for them.
> My supplier doesn't even stock most of the Kohler faucets I'm installing, those are also ordered for me. I don't see how it's a problem regarding parts if I have them on hand, in stock. What's the problem? So far I haven't even needed a part!:thumbsup:


 You cant argue with that. If you stock your own parts on the ones you install then your running a 1st class ship. Worst case scenario you could replace the entire thing with one outta your own stock and then get credit for it. I've always said the best faucet is one you can repair and one you have the parts for on hand. Most brands work long enough before they leak. The major brands anyway. As far as the customer waiting thats usually when i say...."we could just replace now and next time their will be no parts hunting...i stock them" 90% say replace it unless its going to mess somthing else up like a tile wall or wall paper.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Anyone ever worked on a Kohler Forte? Wait till you see what that's all about when you have one leaking internally. 

I warn the customer's first, "do you know what you're getting into with this faucet?" 


"Oh well it was on sale and I liked it." :blink:


I like their braided stainless steel supplies though, delta could learn a lesson or two from that line of thinking.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Roast Duck said:


> Anyone ever worked on a Kohler Forte? Wait till you see what that's all about when you have one leaking internally.
> 
> I warn the customer's first, "do you know what you're getting into with this faucet?"
> 
> ...



NO I've never had to work on a Kohler Forte because I've never had one leak. :laughing:
And "what it's all about" is changing a simple cartridge. It really isn't rocket science for most plumbers.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

ironranger said:


> NO I've never had to work on a Kohler Forte because I've never had one leak. :laughing:
> And "what it's all about" is changing a simple cartridge. It really isn't rocket science for most plumbers.


 

No on the job training here at the Roast Duck campground. 

And why was a Kohler Forte leaking in less than two years?

How about those bidet faucets made by kohler that have the worst problems with their backflow components.

Toilets are okay, with exception to the cimmarron showing the user that bowl wash wasn't top priority. 

Kohler made good engines, good sinks, good tubs, but they should stay out of the faucet biz. 

My scrap barrel loves kohler faucets because I can upsell a Delta over them every day. Now that Delta switched to PEX risers, I'll start putting in chicago or gerber faucets if need be to get away from fast and easy provides. Snap! Push! Crimp!


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I think it's funny how you don't like delta because they now use pex supplies and not just because they suck and always have:laughing:


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Roast Duck said:


> No on the job training here at the Roast Duck campground.
> 
> And why was a Kohler Forte leaking in less than two years?
> 
> ...



I have no idea what you're talking about regarding a kohler forte faucet leaking after two years. Are you talking about that one post on plmg.com, the one where the diy'er worked on it himself and damaged the faucet? :laughing:
What do you mean you can upsell a Delta any day? One minute you don't sell faucets and next you're upselling them? WTF?
I'm sticking to what I'm doing, I'm not having any problems.
I'm done, this is getting strange.:blink:
Good luck with whatever it is you do duck!:laughing:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Protech said:


> I think it's funny how you don't like delta because they now use pex supplies and not just because they suck and always have:laughing:


 
Don't nix words you don't have the background to back up. You've been plumbing what, 7 years total? Get some years and experience under your belt before making uneducated statements.

I've been putting my hands on product now for 23+ and seen a few faucets go bad, break. 


Delta makes good products but their move to PEX was a wrong one, and I'll see that from the perspective of service and repair. On some forum (don't know which one) a guy had to cut those risers and shorten them, used the factory plastic ferrules that came with the faucet.

Cut the pipe perpendicular with a square edge and installed it into the stop. 12 hours later that riser blew out of the supply valve and did thousands in damage.

Brand new faucet

PEX pipe

Thousands of dollars in damage. 


Delta cares about what I had to say about their technology, sought me out on Ridgid.com's website for an opinion I made about this move.

That brought me to a call from Maryland from someone up in the high rankings, a woman no less that knew her product and public relations really well.

I ended up with a $230 faucet which was sent to me and I youtubed the disassembly of that faucet.


Call me when Delta hand picks you out 100's of thousands of plumbers and values your opinion that much.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

I refuse to say it, edited post. Not worth the bother. lol


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

ironranger said:


> You got a problem dude, by the way it wasn't a 230 dollar Delta faucet. It was one of the cheap pieces of sh*t plastic delta faucets. Oh boy, you took it apart! Go beat your chest on your own site, nobody gives a crap.


 
Oh really?  


Are you sure?


Do you know what you're talking about?






 


:laughing:


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Roast Duck said:


> Oh really?
> 
> 
> Are you sure?
> ...


hahahhaha I Knew you already had it! Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:laughing: You can go on all night! Here's your 230 dollar faucet for those who haven't seen it.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Why don't you join us in the chat room duck, some folks there would love to hear about your opinions on plastic, your free faucet, etc.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

ironranger said:


> Why don't you join us in the chat room duck, some folks there would love to hear about your opinions on plastic, your free faucet, etc.


 

Chat room? 


Oh no, 

You want to talk about products, you bring it out in the open. That's how so many poor homeowners got screwed, plumbers believing in new products and had little pow-wows out of the public eye and once the job was done and plumber was gone, 


victims. 



You want to challenge my thinking you're going to put it out in the open. I want those search engines capturing my every word so I benefit from the talent. This time however,


start a new thread using our full names, addresses, plumbing license number along with state you perform work duties in. Goooooooogle/yahoo/bing and all those search engines need to see what you believe is right for you customer, *years from now*. 


Put your picture of your face to your post as well. 

Otherwise you're wasting my time.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

.... and you're wasting mine.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

I disagree with most everything you stand for in the plumbing world roast duck, just thought you should know that and thought it should be out in the open for everyone to see.
What's the matter, you're afraid to discuss your views with 8 other plumbers? Thought so.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Hi guys!!!! HI MOM!!!!!!!!!


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Who are these idiots that are having pex supplies blow off. I've put thousands of them on and never had even one blow out.

And by the way mr. dunbar plumbing (who changed his name to roast duck), If you will notice, my user name IS my company name and my name and address and Lic. # are all a matter of public record as well as plastered all over the internet so what the heck are you talking about? 

Furthermore, I've been at it now for over 10 years not 7 and I'm doing better and am more educated than you so where exactly were you going with that statement earlier?

I think it's cute how you like delta (cheap bottom of the barrel crap) and the only thing that you are complaining about is that they used pex supplies on that faucet. If you ask me, that's about the only thing on that faucet I WOULD trust.



Roast Duck said:


> Don't nix words you don't have the background to back up. You've been plumbing what, 7 years total? Get some years and experience under your belt before making uneducated statements.
> 
> I've been putting my hands on product now for 23+ and seen a few faucets go bad, break.
> 
> ...


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Protech said:


> Who are these idiots that are having pex supplies blow off. I've put thousands of them on and never had even one blow out.
> 
> And by the way mr. dunbar plumbing (who changed his name to roast duck), If you will notice, my user name IS my company name and my name and address and Lic. # are all a matter of public record as well as plastered all over the internet so what the heck are you talking about?
> 
> ...


I 100% agree with you!


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I think it is a given we are all plumbers here. We don't need to be posting names, license numbers, and photos. 

Google doesn't turn up much on me, somehow I make a living. I might even build a company website one of these years, but probably won't.

Good luck on your mission to rule the internet plumbing world RD. I'll just be running my business, making money.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

ironranger said:


> 1. All faucets will eventually wear out.
> 
> 2. Completely wrong. Do a google search for your part number like I just did and you will find hundreds of hits for parts for sale. The new kitchen and bath faucets are high quality compared to any Delta or Moen plastic garbage out there. I now exclusively sell Kohler kitchen and bath faucets, nothing else. I carry the "Forte", the "Fairfax" and a few others. I have sold quite a few so far with zero recalls.
> If you would look at the Kohler "Faucets" catalog dated Feb. 2009 you would see that parts for the dozens of faucets they sell are on one half of a page, 7 different cartridges and that's for all the single handle and two handle faucets they carry. It just doesn't get any easier.
> ...


I have this kitchen faucet in my house. The only difference in mine is it's a 3 peice (handle,spout,spray). There's a lot to like about this faucet. It's heavy, smooth, no wobble in the spout, and priced relatively well. I've had it for about 3 years, and the only problem I'm still having is with the spray diverter. After about every 3-4 months after I put a new diverter in ,the pressure out of the spray is very inconsistent. Sometimes full pressure, sometimes half pressure, sometimes no pressure. Kohler has sent me a new diverter free of charge no questions asked each time, but it's getting to be a real PITA. I'm just glad it's my faucet and not one I supplied to a customer. Anyone who does a lot of res. service knows the first thing to go on a kitchen faucet is usually either the spray or the diverter. It's critical to get the design right. Maybe I just bought a lemon, but for me it's Delta or Moen. And for the record, I have never had or seen a properly installed pex supply leak.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> Good luck on your mission to rule the internet plumbing world RD.


 

Considering 6 responses gained to my one on my last post? 


Thank you for the recognition. 

I'm off to work to make money...


Pictures/Video coming!


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Roast Duck said:


> Considering 6 responses gained to my one on my last post?
> 
> 
> Thank you for the recognition.
> ...


Wow, six responses? Did you read the responses?:laughing: Actually it was four posters more less telling you to take a hike!


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## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

Roast Duck said:


> Anyone ever worked on a Kohler Forte? Wait till you see what that's all about when you have one leaking internally.
> 
> 15 min cartridge replacement. Done:thumbup:


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

ironranger said:


> 1. All faucets will eventually wear out.
> 
> 2. Completely wrong. Do a google search for your part number like I just did and you will find hundreds of hits for parts for sale. The new kitchen and bath faucets are high quality compared to any Delta or Moen plastic garbage out there. I now exclusively sell Kohler kitchen and bath faucets, nothing else. I carry the "Forte", the "Fairfax" and a few others. I have sold quite a few so far with zero recalls.
> If you would look at the Kohler "Faucets" catalog dated Feb. 2009 you would see that parts for the dozens of faucets they sell are on one half of a page, 7 different cartridges and that's for all the single handle and two handle faucets they carry. It just doesn't get any easier.
> ...


1. I am not the one who made the statement. Read it again. I said it's what the lady at Blowe's said.

2. I am not the one who made the statement. Read it again. I said it's what the lady at Blowe's said.

3. I wasn't wanting Danco crap. It was 8:00pm and that was my best option to look for the part to get my friend's water back on. I would have even bought Danco to get him by until I ordered in some genuine Kohler parts.

My whole point was to mock the stupidity of the lady at Lowe's. This thread's purpose had nothing to do with what I thought of Kohler or anything like that. She was so full of BS I decided to let you all in on the fun. I did a poor job of communicating it because this thread is just another pizzing match about Kohler vs. whatever. Makes me laugh.

PS. As much as I despise Blowe's I am not so arrogant as to refuse to buy a part there if it will get my customer our of a bind. And I have installed Danco crap. Here's the conditions: "I will put this part in and get you out of a bind. You will pay up front not only for what I am doing now, but for me to return and replace this part with a quality part." No way would I have cheap knock off parts out there under my name.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Youll love this 22...maybe the point was understood but didnt warrant any comment but in good social etiquette the conversation was kept alive--just one possibility of several scenarios.
besides no one should be exempt from misunderstanding and frustration that would dull too many threads.


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

stillaround said:


> Youll love this 22...maybe the point was understood but didnt warrant any comment but in good social etiquette the conversation was kept alive--just one possibility of several scenarios.
> besides no one should be exempt from misunderstanding and frustration that would dull too many threads.


Yep. Glad everyone made sure I didn't feel rejected by no replies. LOL

Actually, it's all cool.


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