# Tankless shocker!



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Learned one more thing today that proves that all tankless are not created equal, which is something I already knew but learned for a new reason today. Whether you love them or hate them you have to admit that this is just way wrong.

Get a repair call on an OD unit today. I won't mention the manufacturer's name, some of you may now immediately to whom I refer, just keep it to yourselves. I knew what was wrong with it as soon as I opened the cold water isolation valve. The call came from a guy who just bought the house and had not been in it even a week. House had been vacant for about a year (yeah some of you already know). So I immediately shut the water off and pull the cover so I can confirm what I already know and sure enough the heat exchanger is busted wide open. So I get ahold of tech support because the diagnostic/repair manual for this manufacturer has repair procedures for everything except the heat exchanger. I think that maybe somehow I'm just missing those pages but tech support informs me that it is a "nonrepairable component part". I said "I know that, I don't intend to repair it, it needs to be replaced" he says "you can't replace that component part" ... WHAT !!! This is not the biggest but one of the biggest selling points of tankless water heaters, ... longevity. I was stunned, I couldn't believe what he was telling me. What a rip off!!! So I'm left explaining to the new ho that freeze damage is not covered by the warranty which is reasonable and expected by most rational people. The hard part though was having to explain that every other tankless water heater (that I am aware of, and I should probably confess here that I only sell Noritz and don't know nearly as much about other brands) is 100% repairable for each and every component part but that this one is not.

So the bottom line is that we will be replacing the worthless piece of junk he now owns with a Noritz N-0751M-OD in the morning. Welcome to your new home!

On a side note, this is just another fine testament to the value of a "professional" pre-purchase home inspection! What a joke of a "service to home buyers". I might find 1 in 10 that has any clue about plumbing at all and most are negligent and some are down right fraudulent (not sure which one this one was). 

I do have a question as a result of what I saw today for those who have encountered significant leaks inside the unit. How often is there collateral damage to the electronics. How likely is it that a leak will result in the replacement of some, most, or all of the electrical components or even things like gas manifolds etc. I had never really considered this possibility, before today, that the failure of any water bearing component could lead to the replacement of some, many, or even all other components. In this case it would certainly be better to just replace the entire thing. Anybody have any first hand experience with this. 

Tankless, I know it doesn't freeze in SoKal but maybe you've seen leaks from other causes, any experience/opinions?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Could you PM me the brand? I'll keep it on the D/L if ya like.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

I've never heard of freeze damage being a covered item. If the house was empty for a year then things like that can happen. Was the gas and water still on during that year? The Rinnai's and other models have a built in freeze protection but the utilities have to be on for it to work. Seems there's more to this story?


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Ive seen a certain part on the old Rinnai R-85s freeze. But never the heat exchanger. Unfortunately, it only get that cold once in a blue moon, and ill probably be workin in shorts till about the end of january, for that one month out of the year that I am cold.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

ironranger said:


> I've never heard of freeze damage being a covered item. If the house was empty for a year then things like that can happen. Was the gas and water still on during that year? The Rinnai's and other models have a built in freeze protection but the utilities have to be on for it to work. Seems there's more to this story?


This had freeze protection as well although I'm not sure what I think of it. My reticence is for design reasons and not because this particular unit froze. This unit froze because the switch was left in the off position. Any unit by any manufacturer will freeze under those conditions. I hope I didn't lead anyone to think that I thought this should be a warranty issue because I never did. I just found it unbelievable that the ho was going to have to replace the entire unit because the manufacturer would not provide under any circumstances, even via purchase through any authorized wholesaler, a replacement heat exchanger. They told me that there was nothing that could be done except to replace the entire tankless water heater. So that is what I am going to do except the new one will be a Noritz rather than theirs.


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## Nevada Plumber (Jan 3, 2009)

Why the secrecy in what brand water heater it is? Doesn't it benefit all of us if we know which manufacturers make it harder to do our jobs?


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Ordinarily, yes, but I am working very hard to be the king of tankless in my market. I won't go so far as to hand everything over on a silver platter. Those who are serious about tankless probably already know anyway. I'm not usually stingy with info but in this case I don't want to tell the whole world. If you dig a little it won't be that hard to discover anyway.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

I know the brand and it's a crap unit. If Smells wants to tell he can.
I have seen about 10 exchangers leak. A few pin hole leaks caused minor damage.... The rest were exchanger piping that let let go/rotted out due to high temp demands and very hard water. In those instances it causes alot of damage. Water will run back down the unit's gas systems and flood the fan and I once saw one that had water totally filled in the gas jets and rusted shut (thankfully) the primary gas solenoid. That and a few others were beyond repair....Sure I could fix it, but it's not worth it. I had one that was an old 6.3 that was like 3 years past warranty, Noritz send me a refurb 7.51 for the guy. 200 to diognose -- 200 for the swap. Client was very happy and I made my money. Noritz is extremely good about warranty issues...but it's kinda like a cell phone customer service person....depending on who answers will dictate what you get. As for your question, the boards are verticle and newer units are on the Rhand side. Older units are front facing. I can't say I have ever seen electronics damage due to an internal pisser, but I have stock of the transformers because of where they are located that can and do get wet. If I see any signs of water on them, I throw them out. If they have to shell out money for me to come over and charge them what I charge, I am not going to rely on what I think may or may not happen. It's in the trash and I pop another one in. 

Hope that helps


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

One of my friends recently replaced his breadmaker unit for the 2nd time. Both were under warranty and both were for leaking heat exchangers. 

The first time I tried to get him to put a better one in. "But it's under warranty."

The second time it cost him about $5K in damages. (Flooding)

He still put in a replacement unit provided under warranty. I gave up.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Tankless said:


> I know the brand and it's a crap unit. If Smells wants to tell he can.
> I have seen about 10 exchangers leak. A few pin hole leaks caused minor damage.... The rest were exchanger piping that let let go/rotted out due to high temp demands and very hard water. In those instances it causes alot of damage. Water will run back down the unit's gas systems and flood the fan and I once saw one that had water totally filled in the gas jets and rusted shut (thankfully) the primary gas solenoid. That and a few others were beyond repair....Sure I could fix it, but it's not worth it. I had one that was an old 6.3 that was like 3 years past warranty, Noritz send me a refurb 7.51 for the guy. 200 to diognose -- 200 for the swap. Client was very happy and I made my money. Noritz is extremely good about warranty issues...but it's kinda like a cell phone customer service person....depending on who answers will dictate what you get. As for your question, the boards are verticle and newer units are on the Rhand side. Older units are front facing. I can't say I have ever seen electronics damage due to an internal pisser, but I have stock of the transformers because of where they are located that can and do get wet. If I see any signs of water on them, I throw them out. If they have to shell out money for me to come over and charge them what I charge, I am not going to rely on what I think may or may not happen. It's in the trash and I pop another one in.
> 
> Hope that helps


Yep. That's the one. I've never installed this unit and wouldn't but you can be sure that it's coming home with me and it will serve as a training unit. We will practice on it until we can tear it down and put it back together in 30 minutes (if that is even possible). Since I have gotten involved with tankless water heaters, we have received repair calls for 3 brands, once for Noritz which turned out to be an M unit located in a restaraunt and had greased up (this was not the fault of the water heater but that of the yoyo who called for an M unit rather than a DV inside a restaraunt), 2 or 3 were Bosch's with various scale issues, and the 3rd was this brand I'm talking about tonight. I've lost count of how many service requests we've received to date for repairs on #3. It seems though that it's probably 1 or 2 each month. In fairness to the manufacturer (all of them that we have encountered) more than 1/2 the time the fault lies with whoever installed it rather than the unit itself. Either it was improperly installed or it was misapplied or improperly sized or something that could easily have been prevented had the installer had a clue about what he was doing.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Do you remember what I told you last year about getting into these things? Make your money bud.....Manufacturers issues - installer issues - God like issues.....make your money. for as many of these damn things I have done the newness novelty is long gone...I'm just there for the cash. Knowing the in's and outs makes you a better tech. Knowing what you can get away with from the manufacturers allows you to get the repair done faster and more professionally in a market where there are too few professionals involved in general. Next time you get a gummed up exchanger let me know, I want to try a few things to clean it up, versus just ordering a new one.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Tankless said:


> Do you remember what I told you last year about getting into these things? Make your money bud.....Manufacturers issues - installer issues - God like issues.....make your money. for as many of these damn things I have done the newness novelty is long gone...I'm just there for the cash. Knowing the in's and outs makes you a better tech. Knowing what you can get away with from the manufacturers allows you to get the repair done faster and more professionally in a market where there are too few professionals involved in general. Next time you get a gummed up exchanger let me know, I want to try a few things to clean it up, versus just ordering a new one.


The 1321M-ASME that I pulled out of that restaraunt (replaced it with a 931M-DV) is in my shop right now, untouched from the day I pulled it. I had briefly considered cleaning it up and reselling it but decided that was a bad idea. I'm sure it's perfectly fine though with a good cleaning. That sucker is heavy!


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