# Another Crossroad Decision



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I have another crossroad decision to make. To buy or not to buy a stair climber so I can install water heaters by myself. 99% of water heaters are located in basement over here. Most people who called me this year have 60 gallons.

I have a lot of competition and many have cut throat prices. Then you have Blowes and HD who installs them for 275$. Obviously at those prices something is not right, probability not declarared(fee sent to the ministry), probably no pan or even piped to a drain and most definitely an ugly installation.

If I buy it new it would be $3473.04 CAD plus I'd say 300$-400$ in shipping so a total of around of 3800$.

Is this going to be another bust just like the camera and locator I bought last summer? I don't get more than 1-2 callers for water heater replacement each month.

This is the climber I would get :

https://handtrucks2go.com/Escalera-...U-rZA-ehZvpXcLKdRkU-p7Q9nVvHYhiBoCJYIQAvD_BwE



.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

I was going to call you a wimp till you mentioned 60 gallon. Yeah, above 50 is a two to three man venture.

Couple questions....

How often will you use?

How much will it save your body?

That’s what I would ask myself.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Even an old 40 gallon going up stairs isn't easy, sometime it's full of muck. I'm not in the business to get hurt, no insurance and I had an umbilical hernia surgery so I don't want to attempt rupturing it.

My calculations are grim, lets say I get 16 phone calls a year and I get hired to do 4 of them. It would take 2 years and 8 jobs before I pay it off before I make my first dollar in my pocket.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> Even an old 40 gallon going up stairs isn't easy, sometime it's full of muck. I'm not in the business to get hurt, no insurance and I had an umbilical hernia surgery so I don't want to attempt rupturing it.
> 
> My calculations are grim, lets say I get 16 phone calls a year and I get hired to do 4 of them. It would take 2 years and 8 jobs before I pay it off before I make my first dollar in my pocket.



will they finance it? this way you spread the payments over a few years, even with interest it may be worth it if you dont have the extra cash on hand..if not a 2 year payback isnt that bad and you can use it for boilers and other heavy items to bring up and down stairs...I buy with a 10 year plan( figuring the equipment will last at least 10 years and decide if its worth the purchase price divided by 10, many times the equipment lasts much longer, but I use 10 as a reasonable amount of time it will last...so for under $400.00 a year I think if it saves your back and gets you more work it is worth it..


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> will they finance it? this way you spread the payments over a few years, even with interest it may be worth it if you dont have the extra cash on hand..if not a 2 year payback isnt that bad and you can use it for boilers and other heavy items to bring up and down stairs...I buy with a 10 year plan( figuring the equipment will last at least 10 years and decide if its worth the purchase price divided by 10, many times the equipment lasts much longer, but I use 10 as a reasonable amount of time it will last...so for under $400.00 a year I think if it saves your back and gets you more work it is worth it..


I never buy things if I don't have the money in the bank account. I have the cash.

The use of it will only be for water heaters as I don't do any heating or commercial work and I don't plan to expand in those areas. If I could get a used staircat all fees included under 2 grand I'd go for it but it may take a very long time to get one as they seem very rare on the second hand market.

Maybe like you say I'm better to think of it as a long term investment.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Tango said:


> Even an old 40 gallon going up stairs isn't easy, sometime it's full of muck. I'm not in the business to get hurt, no insurance and I had an umbilical hernia surgery so I don't want to attempt rupturing it.
> 
> My calculations are grim, lets say I get 16 phone calls a year and I get hired to do 4 of them. It would take 2 years and 8 jobs before I pay it off before I make my first dollar in my pocket.


Another part of the return on investment is being able to take care of your repeat customers needs. You want to be able to repair/replace all plumbing in the house. 

You don’t want to tell a repeat customer “I don’t replace water heaters, call another plumber for that” and risk losing them for future work.


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

Debo22 said:


> Tango said:
> 
> 
> > Even an old 40 gallon going up stairs isn't easy, sometime it's full of muck. I'm not in the business to get hurt, no insurance and I had an umbilical hernia surgery so I don't want to attempt rupturing it.
> ...


Excellent point, I would invest and then start pushing your advertising toward more water heater calls.

Your only going to get more busy as your customer base grows.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

You have a good point to serve as much as possible but then in comparison I should do mainline drain cleaning, front yard excavation to replace sewers and main water, water softeners and UV filtration, outside wells and pumps, septic tanks and septic field etc. All these I don't do as it's too involved, more licensing and risk of being accountable for filtration install if the water ever goes bad.

I'm going to think about it some more at that high price or wait for a used deal.


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## Dat dude (Oct 30, 2018)

What about finding someone younger you can pay when you need it? There is always people out there who’d do manual labor for a quick buck.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Dat dude said:


> What about finding someone younger you can pay when you need it? There is always people out there who’d do manual labor for a quick buck.





Seriously, find someone you can toss 50$ to give you a hand with a good standard hand truck, the kind with the straps.


The supply house let us try a stair stepper with the idea we would buy one. It sucked, we broke it, didn't buy one. One of our guys had used one that was different which he said was great. The lesson I learned is that labor is cheap and if you buy a stair stepper you better have tried it first as some are garbage and they still cost thousands.








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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

I won't answer your question because it isn't a straight forward question. Just ask would we buy a stair stepper. Whether or not they want a cheap price is in my opinion irrelevant to the choice of killing your back, hiring a helper, or spending a ton on a stair stepper.

Would I buy a stair stepper? Yeah if I had a ton of homes where a regular hand truck wouldn't work, but I am a big guy and a 60gallon is no issue for me unless there is a really narrow staircase or a landing then quick turn, etc...

It seems like the real crux of the issues is you are worried that your profit margin is too low to justify new equipment. If that is the case than raise your prices or accept the amount of profit you are making. You can't get blood out of a stone. You can't feed a crowd from one fish. You can't make more money appear by wishing.



Would I bother installing water heaters for those who want me to compete with hack work prices? Probably not, but that wouldn't really be my call as I would go flat rate assuming I have to do all the code compliant stuff like expansion tank, vacuum breaker, work permit, di-electric unions, pan and drain, etc... They would be the ones deciding for me if they call. If I show up and they have some of that already I would give them a cut on the price. But if they call, I say it's x amount because I have to be code compliant and if they don't say yes right then than either my prices are too high or they just want it hacked in.










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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Dont you You live in Quebec canada,,,,,?? 
so why dont you take a vacation and go across the border and
buy one for 2300 US somewhere in New york and then drive it home??? 
Would you save enough to make it worth your time??

if you buy one you will more motivated to advertise for doing that specific
job with the intent to pay it off quicker.......



I found one on E-bay in buffalo new york for 1500 used...
https://www.ebay.com/i/293001139524?chn=ps

mine paid for itself in the first week but I install a buttload of waterheaters
you got to use it to make it affordable......


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> Dont you You live in Quebec canada,,,,,??
> so why dont you take a vacation and go across the border and
> buy one for 2300 US somewhere in New york and then drive it home???
> Would you save enough to make it worth your time??
> ...


Mark I think you haven't read my last PM or the last couple of them. The link you sent me is the link I sent you a couple days ago. I contacted the guy I wanted to buy it full price and he came back he would check it out. It's been 3 days since. It's one of those sellers that are lazy. I'm thinking to click on buy it now and force him to ship it. I just don't know he could put a crazy shipping price. Then I'd have to dispute it or not pay and have a strike on my account. Or or maybe he'd cancel the transaction.

Sure I'd pick it up at the across the border to save a few dollars.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> Dont you You live in Quebec canada,,,,,??
> so why dont you take a vacation and go across the border and
> buy one for 2300 US somewhere in New york and then drive it home???
> Would you save enough to make it worth your time??
> ...





skoronesa said:


> I won't answer your question because it isn't a straight forward question. Just ask would we buy a stair stepper. Whether or not they want a cheap price is in my opinion irrelevant to the choice of killing your back, hiring a helper, or spending a ton on a stair stepper.
> 
> Would I buy a stair stepper? Yeah if I had a ton of homes where a regular hand truck wouldn't work, but I am a big guy and a 60gallon is no issue for me unless there is a really narrow staircase or a landing then quick turn, etc...
> 
> ...


Mark I think you haven't read my last PM or the last couple of them. The link you sent me is the link I sent you a couple days ago. I contacted the guy I wanted to buy it full price and he came back 2 days after he would check it out. It's been 3 days since his last reply. It's one of those sellers that's lazy. 

Sure I'd pick it up at the across the border to save a few dollars depending if it's free shipping within the US. It would cost me around 3600$ CAD all included. I'd need to make a curtain for the window for the tailgate for the trip home.



If It'd be installing water heaters regularly I'd have my answer whether or not to buy one full retail price. Based on the callers for 40 gallons which I accept on occasion most callers don't care about being up to code, they want it cheap. They need a phone price on the spot, they don't mess around they use up the rolodex.

My profit on installing water heaters is good, I don't cut rates. The issue is that will this thing sit unused like a 3800$ paperweight. Most are price shopping just like they shop prices when their single toilet is clogged.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sorry, I did not get the link to e-bay.... never saw it...

good luck...


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> Mark I think you haven't read my last PM or the last couple of them. The link you sent me is the link I sent you a couple days ago. I contacted the guy I wanted to buy it full price and he came back he would check it out. It's been 3 days since. It's one of those sellers that are lazy. I'm thinking to click on buy it now and force him to ship it. I just don't know he could put a crazy shipping price. Then I'd have to dispute it or not pay and have a strike on my account. Or or maybe he'd cancel the transaction.
> 
> Sure I'd pick it up at the across the border to save a few dollars.



Tango if you look at that ebay add it says" LOCAL PICKUP ONLY"..and for that money id want to see it work before paying for it, you need to contact the seller and set up a time to look at it and buy if its as advertised ..it would be a few hundred to ship that to canada, too much trouble for an ebay seller...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Escalera-7...293001139524?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10
*Escalera 72" Staircat Powered Stair Climber*









*1 viewed per hour* 



*Item Information*

Condition:
Used

“Very Good Condition, Used only 3 Times”



Price:
US $1,500.00 $73 for 24 months*opens a installment calculator layer* * 

 Buy It Now -  



 Add to cart -  
Best Offer:

 Make Offer -  




 Add to watch list  


Ships from United States
12 watchers
Free local pickup









Pay only *$1,450.00* [ Show me how ] 









You'll earn *$15.00* in eBay Bucks. See conditionsfor eBay Bucks - opens in a new window or tab






Shipping:
Free Local Pickup |  See details  



Item location:
Buffalo, New York, United States 




Ships to: 
Local pick-up only


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> Tango if you look at that ebay add it says" LOCAL PICKUP ONLY"..and for that money id want to see it work before paying for it, you need to contact the seller and set up a time to look at it and buy if its as advertised ..it would be a few hundred to ship that to canada, too much trouble for an ebay seller...
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Escalera-7...293001139524?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10
> *Escalera 72" Staircat Powered Stair Climber*


On my screen it doesn't say local pick up. I know it's better to see it in person but it would be 2 day journey with a hotel.
I just sent the guy a message to ship it to the border and I'd go pick it up. UPS states around 155$ for shipping. If it wasn't for the exchange rate I'd buy it new.

But anyway I found 2 authorized dealers "nearby" in Canada, I'll give them a call tomorrow.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Tango said:


> I bought a Lectro-Truck at a trade show in Philly in about 1975-1980. Talking about these stair climbers water heaters seem to be mentioned a lot. How about the other uses. Boilers out of basements heavy loads up into a truck, cast iron baths up the framing in new construction when the stairs are only temporary. Same for fiber glass modules! Many uses not described, many times -- more problem getting the lift to job than doing the lift. Mine saved my back too many times to mention. Are there any cautions ... yes the biggest is weight. You have the weight of the lift, the weight of the load, the weight of the operator {may be 2}. Totaled the stairs may not hold. I always had 3 or four 2x4's and a couple pairs of hefty C-clamps along to use and used they were. I think I paid about 2 grand for it new, when I went out I sold it for 800 used. Not bad for a 30 - 35 year tool!


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I looked at the unit and even the aluminum is spankey clean on it.
I don think you will have any issues with it unless it has been submerged in water or something like that.... It looks like the battery still has the original factory bolts and clamps on it and has near to new...

its very clean and has not been used much at all and with the accessories I see on it , with the folding out legs and larger platform on it, it is probably worth closer to 2900 new... more or less...

if you dont get it , please let me know and I am gonna place a bid on it... 

It would not be the first mistake I have made on e-bay
I got a perfectly good wilson lift gate sitting in my scrap yard that I bought on here for 900 bucks and have never used yet.....the thing weighs about 2500 lbs and has not moved an inch in 3 years since the day it was delivered.... Of course the truck I was gonna put it on fell through --- and the guy who brought it from Missouri was glad to dump it on me on his way to chicago....
....:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Tango said:
> 
> 
> > I bought a Lectro-Truck at a trade show in Philly in about 1975-1980. Talking about these stair climbers water heaters seem to be mentioned a lot. How about the other uses. Boilers out of basements heavy loads up into a truck, cast iron baths up the framing in new construction when the stairs are only temporary. Same for fiber glass modules! Many uses not described, many times -- more problem getting the lift to job than doing the lift. Mine saved my back too many times to mention. Are there any cautions ... yes the biggest is weight. You have the weight of the lift, the weight of the load, the weight of the operator {may be 2}. Totaled the stairs may not hold. I always had 3 or four 2x4's and a couple pairs of hefty C-clamps along to use and used they were. I think I paid about 2 grand for it new, when I went out I sold it for 800 used. Not bad for a 30 - 35 year tool!
> ...


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> I looked at the unit and even the aluminum is spankey clean on it.
> I don think you will have any issues with it unless it has been submerged in water or something like that.... It looks like the battery still has the original factory bolts and clamps on it and has near to new...
> 
> its very clean and has not been used much at all and with the accessories I see on it , with the folding out legs and larger platform on it, it is probably worth about 2800 new...
> ...


It is dented in the back close to the chain on the left. It's probably just a protective plate for the drive chain? Like I said earlier maybe I should force him to do something by clicking buy it now and see if he'll ship.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Tango said:


> It is dented in the back close to the chain on the left. It's probably just a protective plate for the drive chain? Like I said earlier maybe I should force him to do something by clicking buy it now and see if he'll ship.


I wouldn’t do that. Local pickup only. You’d have no leg to stand on.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> It is dented in the back close to the chain on the left. It's probably just a protective plate for the drive chain? Like I said earlier maybe I should force him to do something by clicking buy it now and see if he'll ship.



He moved something big with it and it got away from him.... Probably slipped off the left side and he went for a hay ride down the stairs.... or he went up some kind of rock ledges outside around the house and lost it 
Mine has the same kind of dings on the back side too...

another plumber in town has one of these and has some very nasty dents on the back of his ..he told me he rode one down to the bottom of the stairs one time...:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:

. I dont think I would stress too much about it....
from what I see in the pictures, 
his unit in much, much better shape than mine 

you do what you think is best....
but what else you got to do with
all the big money you are making???


.

i


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

OpenSights said:


> I wouldn’t do that. Local pickup only. You’d have no leg to stand on.


That's what I hate of ebay, you may have local pick up from your perspective but not on my screen. On mine it's a buy it now or make an offer. There's no other parameters. So technically I could buy it and he'd be obliged to sell it for 1500$. It's up to the seller to choose if he ships or not. In this case it doesn't look like he did or he checked several things contradicting each other. 

Ebay has many loopholes and bad rules.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> *what else you got to do with
> all the big money you are making???*




Ha that's a good one! I still only average out 3 small jobs a week and only had one a week in Febuary! You on the other hand you are busy every day.

Mark, if I don't get a reply tonight go for it. It's may be very well be one of those sellers who don't like to reply or to sell to Canadians. I see it a lot, you ask a question to a seller and they don't reply and some think we are are a third world country trying to scam them.

Thanks again to remind me to watch out so I don't crash down the stairs!


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> Ha that's a good one! I still only average out 3 small jobs a week and only had one a week in Febuary! You on the other hand you are busy every day.
> 
> Mark, if I don't get a reply tonight go for it. It's may be very well be one of those sellers who don't like to reply or to sell to Canadians. I see it a lot, you ask a question to a seller and they don't reply and some think we are are a third world country trying to scam them.
> 
> Thanks again to remind me to watch out so I don't crash down the stairs!


you need to get some water heater domain name for your area that attracts water heater calls.. or pay someone to set it up for you.....build it properly, and they will come

presently I am attempting to get something going for whole house water filtration to compete with Culligan and a few other thieves in town....its unbelievable what some places are attempting to sell a carbon activated filter, water softener and RO unit for in our town..... 
Just installed a water heater for a lady on thursday and she tells me someone wanted 13k for those 3 items....:surprise: I will probably be doing something for them later this spring....
That is highway robbery but its also an opportunity to undercut them by half and still make excellent money doing it....all I got to do is build it, then get the info out there and see what happens


[/SIZE]


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> That's what I hate of ebay, you may have local pick up from your perspective but not on my screen. On mine it's a buy it now or make an offer. There's no other parameters. So technically I could buy it and he'd be obliged to sell it for 1500$. It's up to the seller to choose if he ships or not. In this case it doesn't look like he did or he checked several things contradicting each other.
> 
> Ebay has many loopholes and bad rules.


 no seller is obligated to sell anything and can cancel any sale, click on this link and tell me you dont see the local pickup only,,,I get retards all the time from out of the country buy something when it clearly states USA sales only..I just put in for final price refund so I dont have to pay and sales fees to ebay and never had any issue with ebay as the buyer was wrong...


the battery on that cart looks funky, bungee cords holding it on and they go over the rail that would hold the water heater on the cart...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Escalera-7...293001139524?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Tango said:


> That's what I hate of ebay, you may have local pick up from your perspective but not on my screen. On mine it's a buy it now or make an offer. There's no other parameters. So technically I could buy it and he'd be obliged to sell it for 1500$. It's up to the seller to choose if he ships or not. In this case it doesn't look like he did or he checked several things contradicting each other.
> 
> Ebay has many loopholes and bad rules.


Shows up on my end


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Debo22 said:


> Shows up on my end


I can see that from your picture, all I can say is WOW! Talk about me wasting my time with this guy. Mark go ahead if you want it. I'm calling an authorized dealer tomorrow.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Another question to ask yourself;
How much business are you losing or turning sown because you don't have a stair climber?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Plumbus said:


> Another question to ask yourself;
> How much business are you losing or turning sown because you don't have a stair climber?




Very Good question..... we were turning down all 75 gallon heaters cause the both of us could not handle the strain of getting them in and out of a house... now I can normally take it out by myself most times with no fear.... 


I would not mind having a second one if this guy is serious

I offered him 1000 for it last night just to see if he would counter but he has not even responded and there is less than an hour left on my offer...


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

My wife loves to kill me for tool purchases.

1) Love new toys, for me not always looking for pay off.
2) My back is worth more than the cost even if I only used it a few times a year.


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## CT-18 (Jun 27, 2016)

I would not for 1 or 2 a month. Can you work a deal out with a local scrapper and get him to remove them. When i did service years back we would do 1 or 2 a week and i would get a helper.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

CT-18 said:


> I would not for 1 or 2 a month. Can you work a deal out with a local scrapper and get him to remove them. When i did service years back we would do 1 or 2 a week and i would get a helper.



I wouldn't want to deal with a scrapper as I would need a receipt. Then the homeowner will need to take a second day off for the guys and when they stain the carpet with rusty water, scratch the wood floors or dings a wall they will blame me.

As for a helper I won't be able to get someone at the drop of a hat and I'll look like a fool with a 60 gallon in the van at the customer's house and I can't install it because the guy didn't show up. People generally take a day off from work I would get bad reviews.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I just found a dealer in Canada and for a 72", 700 pound staircat the price will be almost 3700$ CAD, That's 480$ in taxes (included in this total).

Unless I can get a used one at a decent price with the amount of calls I get right now I'm going to have to think and wait.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

CT-18 said:


> I would not for 1 or 2 a month. Can you work a deal out with a local scrapper and get him to remove them. When i did service years back we would do 1 or 2 a week and i would get a helper.



Most people generally frown on total strangers coming into their homes to haul out a water heater.... on average, those scrappers normally look like they have not had a bath in a month or are covered in oil and grit
so it would not fare well with your lady customers....:vs_laugh:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> I just found a dealer in Canada and for a 72", 700 pound staircat the price will be almost 3700$ CAD, That's 480$ in taxes (included in this total).
> 
> Unless I can get a used one at a decent price with the amount of calls I get right now I'm going to have to think and wait.



What does the 1200 lb one cost??


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> What does the 1200 lb one cost??


Grand total : CAD $4,089.11 :vs_OMG::vs_OMG:


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Here's the page. Add 15% taxes on top and that's the price. It was 42$ and change for shipping.

https://www.warehousedepot.ca/advancedwebpage.aspx?cg=220&cd=2&GridPage=1&filter2=


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> Here's the page. Add 15% taxes on top and that's the price. It was 42$ and change for shipping.
> 
> https://www.warehousedepot.ca/advancedwebpage.aspx?cg=220&cd=2&GridPage=1&filter2=




They really bend you over and stick it to you deep in Canada... has that got something to do with your sissy boy prime minister?????:vs_laugh:

I bumped my offer to 1200 on e-bay...


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> They really bend you over and stick it to you deep in Canada... has that got something to do with your sissy boy prime minister?????:vs_laugh:
> 
> I bumped my offer to 1200 on e-bay...


Maybe some will start to understand why I get all these people trying to weasel the system, hiring hacks and customers constantly giving me remarks about my services being expensive. I did 2 jobs today and both made a comment. One of them working at the government and they average 90 to 120 000$ a year with sick days paid, 1-2 months paid vacation each year and I get those bad comment. I met a girl once she accumulated her sick days and took off for 5 months and her paychecks coming in. I hear that many times too!

He won't accept 1200, I offered him the full 1500$ no question asked and I was paying shipping and I was driving to the states to pick it up. No reply on his part, he's wasting everyone's time.


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## breplum (Mar 21, 2009)

Get your supplier to buy one that can be used by the local plumbers.
We are lucky that a local wholesaler did that.
And, our other wholesaler has a commercial water heater service, where they send a two man crew plus a stair climber which they do the handling, and you just disconnect the old one. 
As to used, even if you could get one, watch out b/c the rechargeable battery is expensive and guaranteed to be shot.
Do you have any Contractor's Labor Pool for day workers?


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

breplum said:


> Get your supplier to buy one that can be used by the local plumbers.
> We are lucky that a local wholesaler did that.
> And, our other wholesaler has a commercial water heater service, where they send a two man crew plus a stair climber which they do the handling, and you just disconnect the old one.
> As to used, even if you could get one, watch out b/c the rechargeable battery is expensive and guaranteed to be shot.
> Do you have any Contractor's Labor Pool for day workers?


The supply house can deliver but they need a few days notice. They don't bring anything inside or out. People demand a replacement the same day!
The supply houses aren't that friendly, never would they buy a tool for their contractors to lend out. As an example ferguson will help out the diy and let the contractor stew for an hour until they finish up with him. I stopped going there as their prices are higher than any SMALL or big box store. The other supply house has good contractor prices but only have general plumbing fittings.


*Do you have any Contractor's Labor Pool for day workers?*

No, it doesn't exist. I would need to hire a guy as an employee and all the paperwork involved, I would need to hire a secretary, make a safety document detailing all company procedures if an employee gets hurt, send it in to the ministry, negotiate benefits with the employees, then I would need to guarantee a full day of work at the minimum then to lay them both off 2 hours later and more paperwork and send money to several government entities. And give them a 4% check. I know I'm missing a few more things I would need to do! :vs_OMG:

A stair cat is what I need.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> The supply house can deliver but they need a few days notice. They don't bring anything inside or out. People demand a replacement the same day!
> The supply houses aren't that friendly, never would they buy a tool for their contractors to lend out. As an example ferguson will help out the diy and let the contractor stew for an hour until they finish up with him. I stopped going there as their prices are higher than any SMALL or big box store. The other supply house has good contractor prices but only have general plumbing fittings.
> 
> 
> ...



I would go insane driving the speed limit everywhere.






.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

OpenSights said:


> I was going to call you a wimp till you mentioned 60 gallon. Yeah, above 50 is a two to three man venture.
> 
> Couple questions....


I just remembered an Imperial 40 gallon(Canada) is surely considered a 50 gallon water heater for Americans?

So you have no trouble lifting a 50 gallon by yourself with a regular truck up several flights of stairs by yourself? Even an old one with crud inside?

I also have a question for you guys and @Master Mark Do you wrap the bottom of an old water heater, do you lay down tarps? 

Mark do you lay tarps in a stairwell if you are using a staircat? I wouldn't wan t the staircat to slip and off you go crashing down the stair because the tarp slipped.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Tango said:


> I just remembered an Imperial 40 gallon(Canada) is surely considered a 50 gallon water heater for Americans?
> 
> So you have no trouble lifting a 50 gallon by yourself with a regular truck up several flights of stairs by yourself? Even an old one with crud inside?
> 
> ...


I haul 50’s all the time. Yes, if they’re rusty leaky sob’s we use tarps.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Ok so our 60 gallons should be 72 gallons on your end(rounded to 70 or 75)?


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

You use liters right? Not gallons. Or are your heaters sized in gallons?


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

OpenSights said:


> You use liters right? Not gallons. Or are your heaters sized in gallons?


We use both systems because it takes several generations to let go the old system and the fact that a lot of things are from the US which are imperial.

All pipes and fittings are imperial except when you read a plan it's in metric so it's always a hassle to convent this crap. So you read the plan saying 7.62 M of pipe and I convert to imperial with a calculator because I'm more familiar with it as the old plumbers it's 25 feet!!!

Water heaters are still called by their imperial system but the labels are metric.

If you buy soda, milk, coffee cream it's in liters. If you buy canned tomatoes they both have imperial and metric on them.




And lastly sometimes supermarkets put the price/weight of produce in imperial to make you think it's cheaper than if it were labeled in metric!

You see how stupid and frustrating it is! :vs_OMG:


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

OpenSights said:


> I haul 50’s all the time. Yes, if they’re rusty leaky sob’s we use tarps.



some where along the line I got my hands on some super thick plastic bags for 55 gallon drums, If I have a leaker of a water heater ill bag the bottom if I have to go over any finished floors or carpet.....just lay the heater over, slide bag on and a few wraps of duct tape to secure it and good to go...I try and pump them as dry as I can before moving them...


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> We use both systems because it takes several generations to let go the old system and the fact that a lot of things are from the US which are imperial.
> 
> All pipes and fittings are imperial except when you read a plan it's in metric so it's always a hassle to convent this crap. So you read the plan saying 7.62 M of pipe and I convert to imperial with a calculator because I'm more familiar with it as the old plumbers it's 25 feet!!!
> 
> ...


how about pipe diameters? here pvc is 1.5 inch, 2 inch 3 inch and 4 inch...are your codes in metric ? pipe sizes at supply houses?


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> some where along the line I got my hands on some super thick plastic bags for 55 gallon drums, If I have a leaker of a water heater ill bag the bottom if I have to go over any finished floors or carpet.....just lay the heater over, slide bag on and a few wraps of duct tape to secure it and good to go...I try and pump them as dry as I can before moving them...


I will be buying these then at the orange store.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> how about pipe diameters? here pvc is 1.5 inch, 2 inch 3 inch and 4 inch...are your codes in metric ? pipe sizes at supply houses?


I repeat actual pipes and fittings are imperial, on plans they are labeled in metric. In stores they are labeled imperial.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> I repeat actual pipes and fittings are imperial, on plans they are labeled in metric. In stores they are labeled imperial.



thats fuked up, better you than me trying to keep track of all that crap, its bad enough that some vehicles are put together with both metric and imperial bolts, but thats any easy fix just to have both socket sets....when working on them..


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> I will be buying these then at the orange store.



I dont remember where I got them, I have a stack of them in a plastic bag no markings and they have to be at least 10 years old, im thinking at least 5 mill thick or more, you can even buy a role of heavy duty plastic and just fold it up around the bottom of heater and tape it up..
something like this.. https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-20-ft-x-100-ft-Clear-6-mil-Plastic-Sheeting-CFHD0620C/204711640


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> thats fuked up, better you than me trying to keep track of all that crap, its bad enough that some vehicles are put together with both metric and imperial bolts, but thats any easy fix just to have both socket sets....when working on them..


I recounted once about the mill they cut up near the border of russia,shipped it here in pieces and we reassembled it. We started out with new metric bolts and ran out so they ended up with a mix of imperial bolts mixed in. Now on shut downs I was of the very few left over who rebuilt that mill and the fitters were angry the nuts didn't fit.

Every time I told these guys to keep each bolt and nut together and we need both wrench and socket in both mediums to unbolt a flange.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

I have a buddy who has a ton of sockets and wrench sets. He was running out of room to hold them in the oem racks in his tool chest. He also mentioned how he hated having to first try metric and then sae or vice versa never knowing whether a product was put together with metric or sae until he tried.


I suggested he just sort them by actual size on a single rack. So it would go something like 1/4" then 6mm then 5/16" etc. This way he would pretty quickly just learn to eyeball the size and if it didn't fit just grab the next socket up not really bothering to check the marking on the socket. This way he wouldn't have two sets to put away when he was done. Metric or sae wouldn't matter anymore, just the actual physical size in relation to the socket/wrench next to itself.






.


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## alson (Apr 18, 2014)

Years ago we stopped being in the water heater moving business. There was a company around ( a GM factory worker who did this _reliably_ as a side job) who did this kind of work for many plumbers and mechanical contractors.

He would pickup commercial heaters and boilers from the supply house, take them into the basement mechanical rooms, remove the crate, and/or boxes, and remove the old heater, crate boxes and all, (that we had previously disconnected),from the premises. If there was a problem they would call their brother to come and help. (He was in the same business as was there father).


When these folks retired, or passed away, I found a piano moving company that did the same thing. Both of these companies were/are insured and use their own equipment. The piano movers have even moved gigantic radiators for us and I also had them take a cast iron bath tub up a winding staircase which was lined with expensive wall paper. Well worth the money! If they can move grand pianos without damaging anything heaters are a breeze for them.


Now I have them take the 75 gallon heaters down for us and remove the old ones that I have disconnected before they arrive. I have the heaters delivered the day before or same day as the movers are coming. In fact for the last 75 they even used an electric stair climber instead of the refrigerator dolly. I sometimes use them for 50 gallon heaters. It sure saves the back!



If they would not be available, for commercial heaters, there are two suppliers in town (Ferguson is one of them) who will do the same thing (for a fee):deliver the heater, take it to the basement, uncrate, remove old heater, and packaging and set the new heater in place.They both use electric walkers when necessary.Money well spent.


Having someone else handle the heaters allows the plumbers involved to just do plumbing and they are fresh, because they aren't doing the grunt work. There is no risk of injury to our employee, no liability to us for property damage due to the mover or supplier having there own insurance and we don't have to worry about hauling the old heater up the stairs and disposing of it. Plus, for most heaters, only one plumber needs to be on the job.


Maybe the best part that pertains to this thread is that you do not have any investment in a stair climber. You need to do a lot of heaters to make that investment pay off and when it is sitting idle it costs you money. Having a subcontractor (or supplier) do the moving converts it to a variable cost which is added into the selling price of the job, and that may be less than the amount that you need to charge to pay per job for the stair climber.


Added note: These piano movers also move gun safes. They like it because there is no urgency as there is with water heaters.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

alson said:


> Maybe the best part that pertains to this thread is that you do not have any investment in a stair climber. You need to do a lot of heaters to make that investment pay off and when it is sitting idle it costs you money. Having a subcontractor (or supplier) do the moving converts it to a variable cost which is added into the selling price of the job, and that may be less than the amount that you need to charge to pay per job for the stair climber.
> 
> 
> Added note: These piano movers also move gun safes. They like it because there is no urgency as there is with water heaters.



it all sounds good until you call them mover boys and they are not around or available for a few days.... and you lose the job to someone else......

You really dont have to do a lot of heaters to make the tool seem worth its weight.... All you got to do is tangle with a few nasty ones and it gets you out of troubles fast...
MY stair cat paid for itself in the first few days --weeks.... its in my truck right now ready to go into action at a moments notice

I love my stair cat....:laugh::clap:

I guess it all basically comes down to "perceived value" ---- 


You will probably never, ever need an AR15 assault rifle in a real world situation but try to convince folks of that....


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## alson (Apr 18, 2014)

That analogy is a little bit of a stretch, but I get your point. As someone once said "different strokes for different folks".


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

@Master Mark Do you wrap the bottom of an old water heater, do you lay down tarps in the stair? Would you be worried the staircat slips off if there is a tarp on the stairs?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> @Master Mark Do you wrap the bottom of an old water heater, do you lay down tarps in the stair? Would you be worried the staircat slips off if there is a tarp on the stairs?



The Rheem water heaters come in a plastic body bag in shipping, usually if the heater is nasty I will roll the heater into position over the bag and use some old stickers I have to tape up the extra bag to the sides of the heater like a diaper, as far up as I can go with the slack.... then I normally just put a large towell on the bottom plate of the stair cat to catch anything that might leak out of the bag and it seems to work great..... 

I would never put a tarp on the stairs, you are just asking to bust your ass
I have had a few customers wanting one but I just told them it was too risky 

If the stairs get dirty , they get dirty.... I am not breaking a leg when getting someone to come out to clean their stairs is less that 150. and I never have had to do this.

this one was a meanie and came up some stairs full of lime and you can still see most of the bag on the bottom and the towell on the base of the cart........

https://photos.app.goo.gl/kHYr1GodYtaJUt8Y9


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I see you have a V type bar to hug a water heater. I'll be making one of those.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> I see you have a V type bar to hug a water heater. I'll be making one of those.



Its a nice feature but I rarely use it,,


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I had finally found a used stair climber truck within a reasonable budget. The seller shipped with UPS and it disappeared midway. I bet my paycheck someone stole the damn thing at the processing center in New York. A 140 pound and 6 foot tall hand truck doesn't just doesn't disappear like that. Probably a driver thinking he'd use it on his next deliveries.

It vanished 9 days ago and I'm still waiting till next week for UPS to close the case.After that I'll be fighting the seller to get my thousandSS dollars back. :crying::crying:

I did some research and it turns out parcel thefts within UPS is not uncommon by the employees and some sell stolen parcels on ebay.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> I had finally found a used stair climber truck within a reasonable budget. The seller shipped with UPS and it disappeared midway. I bet my paycheck someone stole the damn thing at the processing center in New York. A 140 pound and 6 foot tall hand truck doesn't just doesn't disappear like that. Probably a driver thinking he'd use it on his next deliveries.
> 
> It vanished 9 days ago and I'm still waiting till next week for UPS to close the case.After that I'll be fighting the seller to get my thousandSS dollars back. :crying::crying:
> 
> I did some research and it turns out parcel thefts within UPS is not uncommon by the employees and some sell stolen parcels on ebay.





That really sucks man. I got pissed when my left hand drill bit set got swiped en route.









.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> That really sucks man. I got pissed when my left hand drill bit set got swiped en route.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you got stuff stolen in the mail too!


The worst part I was real happy to see someone decent enough to ship outside the US for once. I was clicking the refresh button every chance I got to see where it was at. Every morning was like the day before christmas expecting gifts. I was planning to strip the ugly duckling and refurbish it all nice.

An opportunity like that don't come often for Canadians.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

There must of been some coincidence telekinesis or something, after being vanished for 10 days, as of this morning the truck seems to be at the clearance agency. It's probably cbsa and maybe they are asking proof from the seller the item is really made in the usa to be exempt of duty fees under the nafta agreement?

Just the the extra fees, it's expensive as hell . Without duty fee it's costing me 460$. If they refuse the nafta thing and I have to pay duty they'll add 138$ for a total of 600$ just to get it here.

Crossing my fingers it goes smooth. Canada has so much Bull Crap and raping my wallet.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Well bad news. I thought the statement form UPS _"Your package is being processed at the clearance agency"_ meant that they had found it but no said the phone operator, "it's just an automatic reply". In actuality we haven't found it and we are about to close the case. Contact your seller so he can ship you another one.

Noooo, he doesn't have another, it was a used one! I just sent him a message to refund the 2 grand in CAD I spent on it.

Damn it. Moral of the story make sure the item is completely incognito in the box or some crook employee will steal it.

UPS, I wish I could say never again but sometimes it's the only shipper. :vs_mad::vs_mad::vs_mad:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> Well bad news. I thought the statement form UPS _"Your package is being processed at the clearance agency"_ meant that they had found it but no said the phone operator, "it's just an automatic reply". In actuality we haven't found it and we are about to close the case. Contact your seller so he can ship you another one.
> 
> Noooo, he doesn't have another, it was a used one! I just sent him a message to refund the 2 grand in CAD I spent on it.
> 
> ...



Very Sorry to hear about this trouble....
so you think someone stole it or it was never shipped in the first place???
did the shipper insure the shipment??


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> Very Sorry to hear about this trouble....
> so you think someone stole it or it was never shipped in the first place???
> did the shipper insure the shipment??


I have all the tracking log, I called UPS 5 or 6 times since this issue tarted. It started in Michigan(April 5) with a weight of 140 pounds and scanned in Buffalo New York(April 8) where it was last seen. Now we are the 23 and it hasn't been found. The UPS case will be closed tomorrow.

I have this message _"We're attempting to verify the package location. / Claim issued." _ As if you tried to find it for the previous 2 weeks...

What's strange is that it cleared customs before it went to New York, maybe it was just an admin thing.

I've done research and like I said previously it's not uncommon for things to "disappear" My bet like I said before some driver decided to keep it for his truck. The last 2 videos, the UPS sold the guy's motor on ebay.

He insured it partially, I'm going to make a claim on paypal.

https://jalopnik.com/how-ups-screwed-a-popular-youtube-car-guy-out-of-10-00-1738255686








http://digg.com/video/ups-driver-steals-christmas-package


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I hope that cart finally gets to you

today my cart basically paid for itself again...

I took out a water softener , a tall brine tank 3/4 the way full with rock hard salt which weighed around 500 lbs... 
a 40 gallon gas heater and a 50 gallon gas heater

I brought down the stairs one water softener, 2 water heaters

I am pretty sure the brine tank full of old salt would have killed a couple of guys having to man handle it up the stairs...... 
it would have killed a good hour. breaking up the salt and bailing it out one bucket at a time....

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_XvJ8lR8OC3UndGTE9ERU5faUJoNThVNmFaZDNnaHU5ZXZj


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> I hope that cart finally gets to you
> 
> today my cart basically paid for itself again...
> 
> ...


Thanks for the encouragement. I didn't get a phone call for a residential heater in maybe in +- 1.5 months. I get them for apartments all the time but I'm not allowed to do them.

So your'e second stair cat is kept as a spare?

So you're well versed to calibrate a water softener?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> Thanks for the encouragement. I didn't get a phone call for a residential heater in maybe in +- 1.5 months. I get them for apartments all the time but I'm not allowed to do them.
> 
> So your'e second stair cat is kept as a spare?
> 
> So you're well versed to calibrate a water softener?



I am putting the extra stair cat in our other truck....I still need to cut it down about 8 inches .. 
I bought it because I could --- just like the way you justify buying that new gun every so often........


calibrating a water softener in our area is pretty simple.... The city water in our area is always runs about 22 parts hard with a lot of lime... small amount of rust.... 
I normally install a 48,000 grain clack unit and set it up at 12 lbs of salt per re-generation.... it re-generates when 36,000 grains are wore out
I get no complaints from anyone....

The only ones that can get me in trouble are the ones with too much iron
but they are always on wells ... 
the 48 will take out about 4 parts per million of iron then after that you need either a larger unit or an iron filter....

I have not looked at a chart on the exact amount of salt needed for a 48,000 grain unit in years....used to have one but lost it a long time ago....

I Probably should brush up on this .

On another note I woke up with sore arms this morning...
.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> I am putting the extra stair cat in our other truck....I still need to cut it down about 8 inches ..
> I bought it because I could --- just like the way you justify buying that new gun every so often........
> 
> 
> ...



I didn't know you had 2 trucks. 
I'm surprised in your area people need water softeners on city water. For us only people who have them are on well water. I shy away from them as I have no knowledge to calibrate them properly and the calls are so far in between for those that I'm not venturing with those.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> I didn't know you had 2 trucks.
> I'm surprised in your area people need water softeners on city water. For us only people who have them are on well water. I shy away from them as I have no knowledge to calibrate them properly and the calls are so far in between for those that I'm not venturing with those.



Actually we have 3 box trucks... one is basically held in reserve and sits on the side of my driveway.....
Indiana has some of the hardest water in the USA and it is Culligans biggest moneymaker markets... . 

you would not believe what some of these name brand companies like culligan and kinnectico charge for a water softener...

I bet they make you take out a permit to install one of them up in your ****ty Canadian area dont they????


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> I bet they make you take out a permit to install one of them up in your ****ty Canadian area dont they????


You can say my area is $hitty anytime you want, check your PM in a couple minutes.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> You can say my area is $hitty anytime you want, check your PM in a couple minutes.




Actually your area is probably very beautiful, but it is marred by all the red tape that the liberals and socalists make you go through


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Dude, that sucks about UPS and your stuff. I watch Rob Dalm on Youtube, i remember that fiasco with the 4 rotor. Good luck, you'll need it.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

chonkie said:


> Dude, that sucks about UPS and your stuff. I watch Rob Dalm on Youtube, i remember that fiasco with the 4 rotor. Good luck, you'll need it.


I gave up hope 2 weeks ago when it wasn't moving anymore. This is their latest automatic reply from yesterday. 

_We're attempting to verify the package location. / Claim issued. _

I doubt they are looking for it, by opening an investigation 2 weeks ago that's was when they had to look for it, not when the seller opens a refund/insurance claim after the search was terminated. Like I said previously a 140 pound 6 foot tall hand truck isn't a small item to be lost. In my mind I'm just bidding my time to get a refund from the seller. Thankfully the seller seems to be a decent guy. Very rarely do I get decent sellers on ebay.


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## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

Ontario "open for business"... but cut education, health care, any and all environmental concern oh and cut infrastructure spending.. really I dont see any difference between conservatives and liberals they are both crooked as heck...

Quebec is a whole different ball game there maybe lots of rules but it ain't a free for all that it is here... like Ontarios trade college was a scam.. like a 100 bucks a year to anyone who holds a trade liscence...

I'm just throwing figures I think its actually like 68 bucks. My renewal was up they wanted money I paid then 2 weeks later oh were not collecting money anymore because were a scam... been signed up 2 years haven't heard anything about school..

Our governments maybe a joke but honestly were lucky... to have such beautiful country... northern Ontario is amazing 1000s of lakes full of prime fish.

Quebec is beautiful too I've been through a bunch of places and some nice landscapes beautiful area... Newbrunswick, Pei, Nova Scotia... that's all I've seen lol.. but everywhere is beautiful in it's own way... and I love our country I'm proud to be Canadian (Canadien).. 

The states has some awesome places too NYC Vegas Appalachian mountains plenty more places.. 

Tangos government just has stricter regulations about businesses to keep public health and safety top priority.. yes I agree its bull that he can't do commercial without special liscencing or there is a certain process to do certain things but theres definitely a reason behind that.. More than likely it's to keep trade unions employed which has pros and cons of course..

Here it's all about who can it cheap as possible and worry about deficiency after the fact if they even catch it.. we have to compete with people who dont even know what they are doing and charge for it as well.. Then when you try to do a job they tell you well its gotta be done like this... then you say well if you do that then your not actually fixing the issue... I dont care that's how they've always done it...

Anyways.... Tango I'm sorry that you've had such bad luck with that lift and ups... I too have an umbilical hernia( no surgery yet), and I know it sucks lifting stuff up stairs without a good cart... I wheel the general up and down the stairs multiple times a day usually.. also do lots of hw tanks.. but usually 2 guys... I usually drain them real good and flush them out to get a lot of sediment out.. 3/4" nipple x 5" 3/4fip by hose unthread drain valve thread that in and once tank is empty close everything and give a good blast... I use 5/8" hose.. then once that's done I'll clean hose out using laundry tub faucet


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

It's a very sad moment. I was all happy to find a stair climber and a seller willing to ship to Canada. I doubt I'll find a used one anytime soon. But now it's official the case is closed on my end. I still think it was stolen by an employee of UPS. 

The seller will have to deal with the claim and from what I've read they don't always refund the insurance on it.

The seller was a very decent guy and refunded me a few hour after I filed a paypal claim.


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

This is the main reason I stopped shipping things outside the US when I was on eBay on the regular. Once you start crossing borders the odds of packages getting lost or "lost" increase exponentially. 
I guess you can't really blame sellers who refuse to ship to Canada after what you've gone through. Imagine the hassle on the seller's part also. I lost a couple hundred plus too many hours on my last international order.
Sure, 90% of the time there's no issue but that 10% risk is not worth it. In my opinion of course.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

V.A Hydro-ooter said:


> This is the main reason I stopped shipping things outside the US when I was on eBay on the regular. Once you start crossing borders the odds of packages getting lost or "lost" increase exponentially.
> I guess you can't really blame sellers who refuse to ship to Canada after what you've gone through. Imagine the hassle on the seller's part also. I lost a couple hundred plus too many hours on my last international order.
> Sure, 90% of the time there's no issue but that 10% risk is not worth it. In my opinion of course.


It has nothing to do about crossing borders. A thief stole the package within your own country. Michigan to New York and it's a border issue???

I have bought over probably a thousand items from the US and this is the first time it doesn't arrive. The issue isn't the postage it's the bad people on ebay who either claimed to never receive it because they see there's no tracking and they'll get it free. It's a common scam. Even domestic people can use that trick. Or it's employee theft. Sure some end up in the wrong places but it's a minor comparison.


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

Sorry, I misread then. I thought you said it showed up as scanned in Canada and then went back across. 
Point still stands from anecdotal evidence. I sold thousands of items on my eBay account before I sold it when I got into plumbing. The only times things didn't make it we're when I shipped internationally. Save for a few packages which got damaged en route, but still made it to their destination.
Do you honestly think those sellers who refuse to ship to you don't want your money? It's more likely they know the higher risk involved in shipping to you so they'd rather sell to someone else even if it means holding on to it longer.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Did you sell outside Canada? There's a lot of scammers in shady countries.


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## V.A Hydro-ooter (Oct 14, 2018)

Yes, I shipped to Canada and a few other countries a few times.
Don't take it personal, I'm not calling Canada a country of thieves. I believe humans are human regardless of what country they're from. There is no country in the world free of thieves and evil. 
I'm guessing when things get to the big shipping hubs there are myriad ways for things to disappear. Much more so than at your local hubs. There are always people looking for their come up.


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

OpenSights said:


> Yeah, above 50 is a two to three man venture.


Maybe subconsciously this is why I disappeared for a short break. 

Every time I read this kind of stuff it makes me want to go release a skunk into my old boss' building.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Alan said:


> Maybe subconsciously this is why I disappeared for a short break.
> 
> Every time I read this kind of stuff it makes me want to go release a skunk into my old boss' building.



LOL...I bounced around from several plumbing companies till I got my license, I didnt hesitate to tell the boss something was fked up or if he asked for me to do something that may injure me, dont put your eggs all in 1 basket, I always had a 2nd job, back up plan or did work on my own, before my license I had a contacting license for insurance for my side work and a few licensed plumbers that would cover any permits I needed, that was over 30 years ago, now many municipalities frown when licensed plumbers cover the unlicensed....but I wasnt a hack and did have insurance of my own to cover if anything did happen...


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Alan said:


> Maybe subconsciously this is why I disappeared for a short break.
> 
> Every time I read this kind of stuff it makes me want to go release a skunk into my old boss' building.


You disappeared because of a 2 man water heater job? I can't read between the lines on this one.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> You disappeared because of a 2 man water heater job? I can't read between the lines on this one.



maybe a 50 gallon heater fell on him in a basement job and they waited a week to go look for him....:vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> maybe a 50 gallon heater fell on him in a basement job and they waited a week to go look for him....:vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


Haha!


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sorry to hear about your stair climber getting stolen....

The one on e-bay landed and the modifications have been made to it and
we have started using it for a couple of 75 gallons we took out last week...

I am thinking about ordering a new motor for my older unit ,,,, it runs only about half as fast as the new one does...


The fergusons in new york shipped it to me for free too through their outlets i guess so I came out smelling like a rose..:vs_cool::vs_cool:


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> sorry to hear about your stair climber getting stolen....
> 
> :


Moral of the story, UPS are crooks and encourage their pirate employees to do so. Second moral. Make sure the whole thing is wrapped in cardboard so they can't see what's inside. The wheels were free so it gave a dead give away to the thief.

3rd Moral never use UPS! I say that but I won't be able to order 1/4 of the things online. Fuuuu

I get more calls about mainline clogs than water heaters. Hacks, neighbors, supply house employees do water heaters on weekends and evenings for 80$ but they don't have a mainline drain machine. I'm beginning to think I should start doing those.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> Moral of the story, UPS are crooks and encourage their pirate employees to do so. Second moral. Make sure the whole thing is wrapped in cardboard so they can't see what's inside. The wheels were free so it gave a dead give away to the thief.
> 
> 3rd Moral never use UPS! I say that but I won't be able to order 1/4 of the things online. Fuuuu
> 
> I get more calls about mainline clogs than water heaters. Hacks, neighbors, supply house employees do water heaters on weekends and evenings for 80$ but they don't have a mainline drain machine. I'm beginning to think I should start doing those.



Cleaning drains is very lucrative if you have the right equipment and enough work to keep you busy...any sized drain


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> will they finance it? this way you spread the payments over a few years, even with interest it may be worth it if you dont have the extra cash on hand..if not a 2 year payback isnt that bad and you can use it for boilers and other heavy items to bring up and down stairs...I buy with a 10 year plan( figuring the equipment will last at least 10 years and decide if its worth the purchase price divided by 10, many times the equipment lasts much longer, but I use 10 as a reasonable amount of time it will last...so for under $400.00 a year I think if it saves your back and gets you more work it is worth it..


Just think of it as a tax deduction,we all need as many of these as we can get:biggrin:


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## rooterboy (Jul 16, 2009)

*climbing speed*



Master Mark said:


> sorry to hear about your stair climber getting stolen....
> 
> The one on e-bay landed and the modifications have been made to it and
> we have started using it for a couple of 75 gallons we took out last week...
> ...


Hey mark I am not an expert on the Escalara. Just someone would like to own one too. I have just been watching videos and the videos stated that the 1200 lb model runs slower that the 600 lb model probably in the gearing to handle more weight. Just my opinion of course the motors are not that expensive to replace . I love that all of the components seem available and replaceable on the motorized stair climber.


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## rooterboy (Jul 16, 2009)

I got Lucky.

I saw an add on Craigslist for a stair climber and saw that it was an Escalara that was 72" tall. The guy wanted $450.- for it I offered $300. he said OK I picked it up last night it was about 30 miles away. Only thing it needs is a new battery and I think a front cover to cover up all the gears. He said his mom was in the moving business than his brother it was passed down to him and he did it for a few months before he become an electrician I believe it sat in his garage for a while before he sold it. He asked me what I was going to use it for for? I told him I was a plumber and for water heaters and cast iron bathtubs going upstairs. Sorry you lost you's tango hopefully you will find another deal.


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