# Small underground job...



## 2010_Frontier (Mar 18, 2010)

Is this how you guys do it in other States? Pick away :laughing:


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

silver solder on a copper trap primer line ?

why ?


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Bayside500 said:


> silver solder on a copper trap primer line ?
> 
> why ?


 Safer for underground, than soft solder.


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

Why are you using 90's on soft copper? Less fittings soldered underground would be better I would think. I would use gravel to bed the pipe rather than all that cinder block. Did the job specify cast iron or are not aloowed to use pvc there?


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

2010_Frontier said:


> Is this how you guys do it in other States? Pick away :laughing:


It's not how we do it in Canada, that's for sure. Pretty strange. Mighty purty though. I haven't seen CI below slab since I was a child. Different places do it different ways though, so I'm sure it's fine for where you are.

Agree with Bollinger - there should be no solder joints underground (or at least underslab) - period. On primer lines it's probably fine though. I've seen lots worse. Depends what your inspectors let you do.

Also agree with Bollinger - some gravel bedding would be very nice (or sand... or dirt...). Propping it on bricks isn't optimum. But I'm sure you go after and bed it properly and remove the bricks, right?


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

Wow I couldn't imagine the laour on a job like that. We have used cast underslab on some engineered projects, but have used zip couplings instead. Haven't seen hubbed pipe since:blink: mmmm can't rememver.
What is this project going to be?


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

I'm sure those are all push gaskets, not labor intensive at all. It's been a while since I've done any commerical, but from what I remember you can't use plastic at all for commercial, or no-hub underground in MA.


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

Makes sense, codes vary all over. We just don't see it up here where I work.


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## 2010_Frontier (Mar 18, 2010)

pauliplumber said:


> I'm sure those are all push gaskets, not labor intensive at all. It's been a while since I've done any commerical, but from what I remember you can't use plastic at all for commercial, or no-hub underground in MA.


Quite true. Use of any plastic underground has a very limited use (beauty salons, barber shops, photo labs, salons, etc). 



Bollinger plumber said:


> Why are you using 90's on soft copper? Less fittings soldered underground would be better I would think. I would use gravel to bed the pipe rather than all that cinder block. Did the job specify cast iron or are not aloowed to use pvc there?


Had to be hubbed cast iron. The cinder bricks were very temporary, the dirt was rock hard so the guys that were doing the site work brought some fresh fill in the next day. But we really needed to get an inspection before that.



Bayside500 said:


> silver solder on a copper trap primer line ?
> 
> why ?


 
Code.....even on a trap primer! .

Quite a bit of labor goes into underground commercial piping here. The first three joints coming into the building still have to be leaded


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## 2010_Frontier (Mar 18, 2010)

Bollinger plumber said:


> Why are you using 90's on soft copper? Less fittings soldered underground would be better I would think.


True. Last underground job I did the Electricians on our staff stepped all over the lines and kinked them. This time I decided to use 90s and then backfill a little more to keep them intact.....


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

We have been soft soldering joints under slab in Florida since.......well.....we started using copper. I've never, let me repeat that, never seen even one solder joint fail under slab that was actually soldered. I don't see the point in brazing unless you are running some insane temps or pressures.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

If one of my guys ever ran pipe like that on "piers", I wouldn't be able to write the layoff check fast enough.

That is just pitiful.

The floor drain vents are where?

Clean outs?

What was the piping measured off of? No footings no stem wall? Measured off the parking lot??

Oh my............


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I dunno what's going on there. Down here we run a hard copper system with joints under slab or we run a soft copper loop and manifold system with all manifold joints above slab.

It looks to me that you adopted the worst of both worlds. Soft copper spaghetti mess with joints under slab.

I would have looped from manifold to manifold. It looks like you have one central manifold somewhere and a big mess of lines branching off of it.

Your iron isn't bedded properly either. When the ground settles under that slab it's going to start cracking.

I'm sorry bud but I'm going to have to say FAIL!



2010_Frontier said:


> Is this how you guys do it in other States? Pick away :laughing:


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Protech said:


> We have been soft soldering joints under slab in Florida since.......well.....we started using copper. I've never, let me repeat that, never seen even one solder joint fail under slab that was actually soldered. I don't see the point in brazing unless you are running some insane temps or pressures.


Yeah, they don't like soft sweat joints under the slab 'round these parts.

We are not allowed to make ANY joints under slab on rough.

On slab leak repairs they are supposed to be brazed ONLY.

I have a hard time believing soft sweat joints would fail......but who am I anyway.


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## 2010_Frontier (Mar 18, 2010)

Protech said:


> We have been soft soldering joints under slab in Florida since.......well.....we started using copper. I've never, let me repeat that, never seen even one solder joint fail under slab that was actually soldered. I don't see the point in brazing unless you are running some insane temps or pressures.


I never said a soft solder joint would fail. It is code here. I don't agree with it either, but it is still code.



Matt said:


> If one of my guys ever ran pipe like that on "piers", I wouldn't be able to write the layoff check fast enough.
> 
> That is just pitiful.
> 
> ...


Incorrect. Read one of my recent posts, the "piers" were temporary until a load of fresh dirt came in the next day and then the piers were removed and the underneath the pipe was throughly compacted. Had to get an inspection that day.

As for the cleanouts, I was standing on the main building cleanout and there will be one for each battery system on the risers. No requirement for the floor drains, being 3" a cable can easily make the turn in the trap.

Vents? Vents are not required on 3" pipe unless the trap wier is 8' from the main or sub drain. The floor drain battery is run in 4", that stack will vent directly through the roof as will the 2" relief that is placed between the last two floor drains. That is all the vents that are required anything else is not necessary.

Piping was measured two cuts in the concrete where a haunched slab is being poured. If I can't pinpoint a plot on blueprint given two sides of a building, it would be time to hang them up.





Protech said:


> I dunno what's going on there. Down here we run a hard copper system with joints under slab or we run a soft copper loop and manifold system with all manifold joints above slab.
> 
> It looks to me that you adopted the worst of both worlds. Soft copper spaghetti mess with joints under slab.
> 
> ...


Once again about the joints, it is code.

The bedding bricks were temporary.

Guess we don't have many Mass Plumbers who do commercial work here. The codes here are different than any other state. As for the 90's on the trap primers, that is common practice because a "trap" needs to be made on the soft copper feed before it goes into the trap anyways. The inspector generally lets it go if the trap primer line is pitched towards the trap and then jumps up (as in the picture) so the line supposedly stays full of water. I don't make these codes or even try to understand them sometimes.





Choctaw said:


> Yeah, they don't like soft sweat joints under the slab 'round these parts.
> 
> We are not allowed to make ANY joints under slab on rough.
> 
> ...


 
I agree. Plumbing codes vary from State to State. What may seem odd somewhere is code in another State.

For example I see ALOT of PVC being used in drainage in some pictures here. As someone just said, that would be a FAIL here


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

How are you going to get a compactor underneath that iron once it's been laid? You can foot stomp dirt underneath that iron from the sides all day long but it's never going to reach the same compaction level as the native undisturbed soil. The fill will settle and those iron lines may crack. I'v done many repairs where just that scenario occurs.



2010_Frontier said:


> I never said a soft solder joint would fail. It is code here. I don't agree with it either, but it is still code.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

On a ground up job I like to start in the ground:laughing: not on blocks. The trenches should have been graded and compacted before the pipe went in. Looks like sombody was in a big hurry. I hope those copper lines are not touching each other...it looks like they are. It looks like apprentices installed it really,and thats being nice.:yes: looks like crap:thumbsup:


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

We would have to sleeve the copper, and we are allowed to use trap seals (which are awsome compared to primers) in floor drains. Never have done cast under the slab, some jobs require it here but very few. We would normaly run pvc under slab and cast on top out for industrial applications due to the fire code. In fact the only jobe I know of in 10 years that required cast under slab was the Hershey factory. The job was to big for a local company to handle-so they hired a company from Oklahoma City that subbed out parts of it to local plumbers.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Look on the bright side TM, the service plumber can log on and look at this pic and have the layout when he needs to saw cut the floors in about 10 years. :laughing:




TheMaster said:


> On a ground up job I like to start in the ground:laughing: not on blocks. The trenches should have been graded and compacted before the pipe went in. Looks like sombody was in a big hurry. I hope those copper lines are not touching each other...it looks like they are. It looks like apprentices installed it really,and thats being nice.:yes: looks like crap:thumbsup:


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

where's the pic?


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

gear junkie said:


> where's the pic?


 
Must have gotten mad at everyone's criticism and deleted it. But hey, he asked.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

He destroyed the evidence :laughing:


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

house plumber said:


> Must have gotten mad at everyone's criticism and deleted it. But hey, he asked.


If you're going to post your work here you definitely need some thick skin. Some of the criticism can be pretty harsh - sometimes excessive, but that's part of the fun. Often it comes from guys who work in different areas and have different rules they have to follow - so it may not mean much.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

futz said:


> If you're going to post your work here you definitely need some thick skin. Some of the criticism can be pretty harsh - sometimes excessive, but that's part of the fun. Often it comes from guys who work in different areas and have different rules they have to follow - so it may not mean much.


 
Hell, my pump got picked apart big time. That's what made me change the thing under my user name. :laughing:


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