# Ontario Red Seal Plumbing Exam....



## Camolia0

By chance, has anyone written this exam recently? I'm a residential low rise plumber, just about to finish my last term of trade school (Advanced), and from I've been hearing, some stuff that is on red seal exam exam we don't even learn in school. Me being a low rise resindential plumber doen't help either. All I do at work basically is R/I, bath tubs, finishings and basements lol. I know nothing about hoisting and rigging, swimming pools, etc. Basically I just want to know if anyone has an actual copy of the exam, or any questions on this exam, SOMETHING lol. Anything would help, thx!


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## army76

did you find anything out about the exam.I am almost finished my last term in school and am getting ready to write soon. Any info would be greatly appreciated.


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## plumbing tutor

Where did you do your schooling?


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## albplumber1975

What do you mean you know nothing about hoisting and rigging? At Conestogo College you have to have your hoisting and rigging card to graduate the coruse???

Advice for the red seal exam (from what I have been told) anything that you took in all three courses is fair game. You get both code books (national and provincial) and 4 hours to complete the test. It is not as bad as your weekly unit tests that you had in school.


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## plumbing tutor

At Humber college we did hoisting and rigging in basic. We watched a video and filled out a book of questions and answers. As for the Red Seal there are 2-3 hoisting and rigging questions, 3-5 health and safety questions as well. 
As for weekly test, mine are in Advanced 10 -15 pages and take upwards of 2 -3 hours. I guess it depends on the instructor. 
The Red Seal is 125 questions, has everything from reverse osmosis to pumps to cooling tower questions. You must know about low water cut offs, pressure switches, zone valves, radiant heat etc... I do not have the break down (ie. % of questions but will find it and post it)
Colleges teach a curriculum mandated by the government of Ontario whereas the Red Seal is more or less BC and Alberta's test. We in Ontario have adopted about 80% of their code and have not fully gone National as most people think. Therefore what you learn in school is governed by Provincial govt. and not the National code. Why they give you the National Code and NOT Ontario Reg. 350/06 is beyond me. 
Well that is enough for me.


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## Scott K

Do you mean the Ontario Province, exam, or the Inter-Provincial Red Seal exam where you are a ticketed plumber accross Canada?


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## plumbing tutor

Hi Scott. The inter-provincial exam is no more. The Red Seal ticket allows you to work in Calgary or Toronto. There is a stipulation, even though you are a licensed plumber you may have to write that municipalities exam. That would keep Toronto plumbers working in Toronto other than a plumber from Calgary.


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## Scott K

Can you elaborate a bit more? Last I heard the 2005 National Plumbing Code was so "all encompassing" that all Provinces were going to adopt it with very few, if any, amendments. To the extent that the Plumbing school I went to stopped making guys buy the BC Plumbing Code and just have them buy the National Code to save them $$$ and make things simpler. 

Now you're suggesting things are going the otherway? Last I heard I am certified to work accross Canada as a Plumber as per the Inter-Provincial Red Seal in my wallet. 

I understand some cities, have their own "codes," but they are often just slightly amended Plumbing Codes with preferences - like typical areas where they have inspectors with certain preferences. I also know that every municipality is responsible for starting their own Cross Connection/Backflow prevention program and administering/inspecting it, etc.


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## plumbing tutor

Hi Scott, In Ontario we adopted about 80% -85% of the National Code (BC's) We still have our code it is Ontario Regulation 350/06 Code and Guide for plumbers. When our students (apprentices) write our exam they are given the National Code. The main difference is that we have a #7 which is the Part of the Code and the national uses a #2. For example if I was to look up 
Sheet Metal Leaders: Our code is 7.2.6.9. (1)
7 is the part.
7.2 is the section
7.2.6.is the subsection
7.2.6.9. (1) is the sentence
The National is the same except is is 2.2.6.9.(1)
When my students write I tell them to disregard the first # and the majority of the code is the same. 
And yes, you as a "Red Seal" holder are entitled to work across Canada but as I said earlier if you want to work in Mississauga for example they have the right to make you write their municipal exam. It is a cash grab and most do not use this by-law but it would keep a plumber from Mississauga working and not an out of towner. 
You are correct with the inspectors as well as the Backflow. In the GTA we have a lot of super inspectors who do all. It is tough to hire a plumber only to inspect plumbing nowadays. $$$


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## Jake A

*C of Q*

I recently wrote the Red Seal exam. They broke it down into 8 categories:
1. Occupational skills 2. Piping preparation and assembly 3. Drainage and venting systems 4. Water service and distribution 5. Fixtures, appliances and water treatment 6. Hydronic heating 7. Specialized systems 8. Maitience and repairs.

Exhausting test, I doubt I passed  

Hint: learn how to size water distribution and water service systems they asked me about 5 questions on this, and learn the proper order to assemble joints (compression, hub/spigot, brazing, asbestos cement piping) 

Jake


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## plumbing tutor

Hi Jake, I helped two guys a couple of weeks ago. I will see how they did and get back to you. Two more friends are going this Friday. Where did you go to school?


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## albplumber1975

Jake A said:


> I recently wrote the Red Seal exam. They broke it down into 8 categories:
> 1. Occupational skills 2. Piping preparation and assembly 3. Drainage and venting systems 4. Water service and distribution 5. Fixtures, appliances and water treatment 6. Hydronic heating 7. Specialized systems 8. Maitience and repairs.
> 
> Exhausting test, I doubt I passed
> 
> Hint: learn how to size water distribution and water service systems they asked me about 5 questions on this, and learn the proper order to assemble joints (compression, hub/spigot, brazing, asbestos cement piping)
> 
> Jake


Hey Jake I myself just finished school (Conestoga College) I wrote the Red Seal exam in toronto just after school and when I took the exam I found it to be the hardest exam I have ever taken. I actually used all 4 hours and could have used even more time. I found the diagram booklet that they gave me was missing things such as vents and specific numbers. I filled a complaint about the exam and did not hear a thing back. When I got my marks I fould that I had only gotten a 68%. I did find that there were things on that exam that were way outside of what many would consider our trade such as process piping and A/C questions. 

I reported my marks back to the college and found that only 3 people out of our entire class had passed. The people who did pass only just passed with like 70-71%. A formal complaint about this exam has been filed and perhaps something will be done about it in the future. 

I rewrote this exam yesterday and I prepared by spending an entire day reading over the national code. There are quite a few questions that come straight out of that code book. I am more then confident that I passed this time around as I was prepared for what the exam was like. Best of luck.


W


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## albplumber1975

plumbing tutor said:


> Hi Jake, I helped two guys a couple of weeks ago. I will see how they did and get back to you. Two more friends are going this Friday. Where did you go to school?


The new red seal exam is very challenging as it is not based on much to do with school at all. I noticed yesterday that there is not a single question on topics such as Wet venting, circuit venting. I actually dont remember there being much DWV questions at all. 

I talked to the ministry and they said this test was just created and it was based on the National code to a small degree but the largest portion of the test is taken from the white training standards book as well as on the job experience, which I along with many people do not agree with.


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## nipthedog

waynewright34 said:


> Hey Jake I myself just finished school (Conestoga College) I wrote the Red Seal exam in toronto just after school and when I took the exam I found it to be the hardest exam I have ever taken. I actually used all 4 hours and could have used even more time. I found the diagram booklet that they gave me was missing things such as vents and specific numbers. I filled a complaint about the exam and did not hear a thing back. When I got my marks I fould that I had only gotten a 68%. I did find that there were things on that exam that were way outside of what many would consider our trade such as process piping and A/C questions.
> 
> I reported my marks back to the college and found that only 3 people out of our entire class had passed. The people who did pass only just passed with like 70-71%. A formal complaint about this exam has been filed and perhaps something will be done about it in the future.
> 
> I rewrote this exam yesterday and I prepared by spending an entire day reading over the national code. There are quite a few questions that come straight out of that code book. I am more then confident that I passed this time around as I was prepared for what the exam was like. Best of luck.
> 
> 
> W


IMO, red seal exams SHOULD be difficult. IMO, too many young people today want instant gratification and aren't prepared to do what it takes to earn, learn and survive in todays world. If you only got 68%, you have some learning left to do. Plumbing isn't a video game, it is all about public health, and requires real brain work. Instead of complaining to the board that the test is too hard, study hard on the areas that you had trouble with, rewrite it, and maybe then you'll ace it. Personally I would be very unhappy if I only got 70% and actually passed.


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## albplumber1975

nipthedog said:


> IMO, red seal exams SHOULD be difficult. IMO, too many young people today want instant gratification and aren't prepared to do what it takes to earn, learn and survive in todays world. If you only got 68%, you have some learning left to do. Plumbing isn't a video game, it is all about public health, and requires real brain work. Instead of complaining to the board that the test is too hard, study hard on the areas that you had trouble with, rewrite it, and maybe then you'll ace it. Personally I would be very unhappy if I only got 70% and actually passed.



I find that to be the rudest comment I have ever heard. I have worked very hard to get where I am now. I went through trade school and finished every session with nothing less then a 90% average. I worked and studied hard. I did not drink and party my way through trade school. See I am not in my 20's. Our complaint to the ministry was based on a new test that every one was failing and many of us took note of some questions that were just blatently wrong. I filled 6 challenges based on several questions that the right answer was just not provided within the 4 choices. As well as the quality of the diagram booklet. The printer had some how left out all of the venting in every one of the diagrams. So how can you be asked specific questions on drainage and venting if there is no venting? And through the course of our complaint in which we had the colleges full backing the e am was changed to fix the diagram booklet as well as fix the questions that provided the wrong answer. I am happy to say that I rewrote the updated exam and pulled off a 93%. While I don't dissagree with your statment about plumbing being about public health, and that is a statment I believe in deeply, I do not agree with your stance on my previous performace on the exam. That is typical journeyman behaviour. It can't be anything other then the apprentices fault is such a poor and negative attitude. When one person fails the exam it's a cryin ass shame. When less then 5% of all apprentices pass this exam ( of those who have written in the 3 months) then there is a problem. And that problem was found to be with the exam not the person wrighting it.


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## SlickRick

waynewright34 said:


> And that problem was found to be with the exam not the person wrighting it.


It can happen when exams are revised. I was one of the first to take a new plumbing inspectors exam in Texas. The previous exam was open book and a piece of cake. They were trying to get better qualified inspectors and went closed book, 2 day exam with a 3 story model set up to inspect for improper installations. It had multiple stacks and a code violation on one stack could effect a mulitude of problems.So I ask for the Chief examiner to come back so I could point out some conflicts in the model. At first he acted like I was some kind of DA. I kept pointing out problems between the model and the answer sheet. He finaly just told me to finish the exam and go back to where I came from. I scored a 90 and they revised the model and answer sheet. Sometimes someone has to stand up and point errors out.


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## eddiecalder

In BC they only give you 3 hours to write the red-seal exam.......


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## markb

*Red Seal Exam Questions*

Preparing to take the exam soon in Toronto, Ontario.

It's unfortunate that Ontario is not caught up with the national education for plumbers. If you are educated outside of Ontario, chances are you know about gas fitting and electrical. Although you are required to know about it, it is not taught in the Ontario curriculum. That does make this test a little more difficult for us in Ontario. Keep reading. Ask lots of questions. 



The Red Seal test contains the following

Percentage of questions for each block of the trade

Titles of blocks	Percentage (%) of questions on exam*
A - COMMON OCCUPATIONAL SKILLS	12

B - DRAINAGE, WASTE, VENTS AND PRIVATE SEWAGE DISPOSAL SYSTEMS	28

C - WATER SERVICE AND DISTRIBUTION, PLUMBING FIXTURES AND APPLIANCES	22

D - HYDRONIC HEATING/COOLING SYSTEMS	13

E - SPECIALIZED PIPING SYSTEMS	10

F - PUMPS	6

G - MAINTENANCE AND REPAIRS	9

Total	100

Below is a link to the red seal example test questions:

http://www.red-seal.ca/images/SampleQuestion_Plumber.html

Also, this website lets you take practice tests for all four semesters (Outside of Ontario, the apprenticeship has four semesters.) There is also a option to take a practice Red Seal exam. For a fee, of course. Only about 100 to take a test on every module in every semester. I have not personally tried it, but it looks promising. 

http://trades.exambank.com/plumbing.html


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## markb

Oh, and one more thing for the Ontario guys. Do you know anything about Medical Gas piping?? Well you should if you are taking the Red Seal...just a bit of a heads up. :whistling2:


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## plumbing tutor

Camolia0 said:


> By chance, has anyone written this exam recently? I'm a residential low rise plumber, just about to finish my last term of trade school (Advanced), and from I've been hearing, some stuff that is on red seal exam exam we don't even learn in school. Me being a low rise resindential plumber doen't help either. All I do at work basically is R/I, bath tubs, finishings and basements lol. I know nothing about hoisting and rigging, swimming pools, etc. Basically I just want to know if anyone has an actual copy of the exam, or any questions on this exam, SOMETHING lol. Anything would help, thx
> 
> Are you kidding me? You are asking for a copy of the exam.? #1. even if there were an exam out there no one would give it to you. It is up to you to sign off your Plumbing Standards book. If you have that you should have a hope of passing. The exam is based on experience learnt from your 5 or so years of hands on training. We need well trained experienced plumbers out there. Remember it is a SKILLED trade, No hacks need apply.


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## Mega Smash

I wrote and passed the "new code" test. When I wrote it, you were only given the National codebook. If you know how to use the Ontario code, you know how to use the National code. It wouldn't harm you to spend some time and thumb through it though - any practice is good practice.

Did I remember what was on the test? I sure did. I wrote down a bunch of questions JUST IN CASE I got less than 70%.

Will I share/sell you the questions? Of course not. I busted my ass studying and stressing for the test, and so should you. If you think that you can simply buy your CofQ, do me a favour and stay out of the trade. The last thing needed is more perpetual apprentices buying licenses and undercutting hard working licensed plumbers.

It's called a skilled trade for a reason - if you can't come to terms with that, maybe you should get familiar with the phrase "Would you like fries with that?"


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## CTC-OPIA

Just to mix the pot, the Real Seal Exam for Plumbing is based on what you learn in the field, not in school. Remember that only 7-8% of your training is in-school. The "official" word from the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities in Ontario is the employer is responsible to prepare for the Qualification Exam. The MTCU also feels you have been tested on what you learned in school at school, so why should you be test again on your C of Q.

Now, the MTCU realizes that since taking on the Red Seal exam the failure rate has jumped and is now running pilot projects to help prepare the Level 3 or Advanced Plumbing Apprentices for the exam. 30 hours of extra in-class, in-school tutoring for the exam.

Ciao


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## davemay89

*I've wrote twice now*

I've written twice now and I'm up to a 60%. It costs me too much to keep writing this stupid thing so what I'm looking for is people who have written and want to share what they have. I have about 40 questions with answers but they might not all be right or they may not be worded correctly. I also have the outline. if you want e mail me at [email protected]




Jake A said:


> I recently wrote the Red Seal exam. They broke it down into 8 categories:
> 1. Occupational skills 2. Piping preparation and assembly 3. Drainage and venting systems 4. Water service and distribution 5. Fixtures, appliances and water treatment 6. Hydronic heating 7. Specialized systems 8. Maitience and repairs.
> 
> Exhausting test, I doubt I passed
> 
> Hint: learn how to size water distribution and water service systems they asked me about 5 questions on this, and learn the proper order to assemble joints (compression, hub/spigot, brazing, asbestos cement piping)
> 
> Jake


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## albplumber1975

*c of q*

Dave check your hotmail email


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## Mega Smash

davemay89 said:


> I've written twice now and I'm up to a 60%. It costs me too much to keep writing this stupid thing so what I'm looking for is people who have written and want to share what they have. I have about 40 questions with answers but they might not all be right or they may not be worded correctly. I also have the outline. if you want e mail me at [email protected]


 
Maybe instead of simply buying what you think are "correct" answers off of other people, you should spend some time and take a refresher course before you write the test the next time.

While you may think it will be "easy" to just memorize the correct answers, wouldn't you want to know why the answers are correct?


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## markb

Has anyone taken a red seal prep-course at a private collage? Eg.Stamford Was it worth your time?


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## markb

Also, if anyone feels like it, I am looking for a PDF version of the NPC, [email protected]. I may have a PDF version of the OBC Part 7 to trade, if I can find it.


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## Mega Smash

I'm sure you know this, but the NPC is very similar to the OPC, except for the reference numbers. Oh, it's also printed on larger paper.

When I wrote my CofQ, it took me about 5mins, and I was used to using the NPC. Mind you, I was also very familiar with the OPC.

It would *greatly benefit* you, or anyone else who is looking to write to get yourself familiar with how the appendix works, and the diagrams it uses. I was surprised at how many of the questions could be answered, with 100% certainty just by using the appendixes and references in the back of the NPC.


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## thesnake

*white standards book*

i took the test twice and failed, here i see that someone mentioned the white training standards book, i have been looking on line for such a book but can't find one, help please


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## AKdaplumba

Go and take a review course at school. Forget everything about writing down this or that, I walked I thought I failed, so I went thru my notes wrote down what I saw on the test and looked it over. 

I ended up passing with 80% on the first shot. If you dont take it again within a month or whatever forget your notes, they bring out new versions and have multiple version all the time. 


I was 1 of 3 guys that did tests from other years like pumps, safety, etc. You get out what you put in, simple as that. Even if I sent you the questions that I starred, I bet you they wont be much help to you anyway. 

Tab your code book, faster you can find where you need to go the better off you are. I looked over the first 1/4 of the test after I finished and I handed it in with 20 mins left. Not much time considering I went quick on every question.


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## plumbing tutor

Hey Snake, To get the Training Standards book, call your apprenticeship office, they will give you one. It is a very important book. They say if you have the majority of the book signed off you should pass the test the first time.


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## plumbing tutor

Aka da plumb r. good one, 
I wonder if your exam is the same as ours (Ontario) ? I guess you went to BCIT, Did you have Dale Pfaff as an instructor?


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## AKdaplumba

its IP I assume its the same for all of canada.

I went to PVC, not BCIT, PVC is a BS school, guessing thats why I dont know F-all about plumbing


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## wundumguy

eddiecalder said:


> In BC they only give you 3 hours to write the red-seal exam.......


My instructor tells us the Red Seal has been changed to a 4 hour exam.


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## wundumguy

AKdaplumba said:


> its IP I assume its the same for all of canada.
> 
> I went to PVC, not BCIT, PVC is a BS school, guessing thats why I dont know F-all about plumbing


I'm in PVC now. Write the RS/IP in July. From your experience, what's BS about the school?


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## AKdaplumba

half the test is the practice test.I took 2nd and 3rd year night school and even after reviewing my notes I still dont have answers to questions. I never went to BCIT but I been told they teach more, PVC is easier, they dont teach better they just give more oppurnities to pass. Moment the teacher walks out people start looking at buddies paper. We know it and they know it. 

Thanks for mentioning the time limit, BC gets less then the rest of the country, what BS too. We get like 30 mins less. 

The staff at PVC are great, very friendly willing to help out, just the curiculam isnt that good. For the B gas test, they give you too much info no reason you should fail. I didnt really work for the B gas exam and got 88%.

Maybe I will touch base with you down the road so you can give me your opinion on the school.

If its a longer exam are there more questions?


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## ASH

*cfq ...help*

just going to write my cfq exam any tips or advice??


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## ASH

just going to write my cfq any advice or suggestions?


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## wundumguy

Certificate of Qualification in what and in which province? Just curious.. it's not like I'm familiar with anything other than ongoing studying for the Plumber IP.


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## ASH

cfq for plumbing in ontario


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## wundumguy

AKdaplumba said:


> If its a longer exam are there more questions?


I'm not certain. They say there's lots of changes happening with the "big" changes to the licensing exam coming in September. When I write the final, I'll let you know how well they prepared me for it. Seems pretty good so far.


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## wundumguy

ASH said:


> cfq for plumbing in ontario


Do you guys write a provincial and the IP, or just one exam? Are they taking care of the apprentices in ON. In BC, all the benefits stack up to something like $20 an hour to go to school!!


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## AKdaplumba

we write the IP, I dont know of any other exam, thats why they call it IP. If there is a provincial only exam WRITE THE IP!!


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## markb

wundumguy said:


> Do you guys write a provincial and the IP, or just one exam? Are they taking care of the apprentices in ON. In BC, all the benefits stack up to something like $20 an hour to go to school!!



In Ontario they give you $1000 at the end on your first two training blocks. Most people can apply for Employment insurance, which is not enough to survive on. And if you are like me and are technically "self-employed" because your boss is not organized, you don't get anything at all. And if you have a family to support, like I do, the government gives you a big thumb up your arse. 

My classes were full of people falling asleep because they were working all night to make some money. Everyone was hustling side jobs and many were having a difficult time trying to focus on their studies. I am very VERY upset with how the Ontario government takes care of their trades and especially the apprentices. They don't seem to understand how difficult it is for an Ontario apprentice plumber to go to school. 

Not only that, but the in-school training does not even cover topics that are on the red seal exam. In Ontario, unlike BC and Alberta, they don't discuss gas fitting, medical gas, electrical, pumps among other things.

I think any newly licensed Ontario plumber will agree with the above statements.


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## plumbing tutor

I know you did not go to Humber College. At Humber we cover the curriculum as best as we can. I make sure to cover the topics you say are not taught. It is not the colleges fault the government changed the exam. The exam is 10% in school and 90% on the job training. If you have your grey book (training standards) signed off by yourself or your employer you should be ok. Actually the new exam is helping our trade. :yes:


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## markb

plumbing tutor said:


> I know you did not go to Humber College. At Humber we cover the curriculum as best as we can. I make sure to cover the topics you say are not taught. It is not the colleges fault the government changed the exam. The exam is 10% in school and 90% on the job training. If you have your grey book (training standards) signed off by yourself or your employer you should be ok. Actually the new exam is helping our trade. :yes:



There is a growing shortage in skilled, knowledgeable and competent plumbers in Ontario and our government, the MTCU as well as local trade associations are running out of time to change the system to reflect the times.

I'm happy to hear that some changes are happening. Although, I think many people in Ontario feel like second class plumbers compared to our western counterparts and their qualifications. They are better funded, have more in class training and have better financial support from the government. 

That's my opinion.  Any opinions? Western Canada? Eastern Canada? Central Canada?


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## wundumguy

Apprentices that go to school in BC receive,

Level completion benefits:
1. AIG - $1,000 for completing level 1
2. AIG - $1,000 for completing level 2
3. ACG - $2,000 for completing level 4

Benefits while in school:
1. EI, with top up if normal benefit level is too low.
2. Reimbursement up to $500 tuition if not paid by company.
3. Gas or bus fare if commuting to school.
4. Travel and accommodations if school more than 100km from home.
5. Daycare costs above usual cost of daycare if extra is caused from attending school.

I think some of these perks sound bigger than they are. The majority of level 1 and 2 apprentices bring a lunch and seem at least a little concerned with money, so it's unlikely the EI top up is worth much. Many level 3 and 4 apprentices are already at or near the max EI benefit. There aren't that many apprentices in small towns to make the travel and accommodations benefit a budget breaker. I would think that an employed apprentice is not going to be paying for extra daycare hours in order to attend school given class hours are shorter than the typical work day.

I'm not sure how one can compare quality of education. The BC plumber in-school component is 180 hours for each of levels 1 to 3, and 240 hours for level 4. The curriculum includes the cross connection ticket in level 3, and the gas b ticket in level 4.


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## markb

wundumguy said:


> Apprentices that go to school in BC receive,
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how one can compare quality of education. The BC plumber in-school component is 180 hours for each of levels 1 to 3, and 240 hours for level 4. The curriculum includes the cross connection ticket in level 3, and the gas b ticket in level 4.


I am not talking about the quality of the education, necessarily, but rather what a BC plumber has in terms of qualifications and in class time. I do have to note that George Brown Collage (Toronto) does an exceptional job at training their students with the resources, time and material given to them. 

An Ontario apprentice only goes through 3 semesters, at only 8 weeks each. There is no gas ticket involved, but we do get a chance to acquire a backflow testing ticket. 

I would say that our western counterparts are more qualified, in general, when they receive their ticket than people in Ontario.


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## 1james2

markb said:


> Has anyone taken a red seal prep-course at a private collage? Eg.Stamford Was it worth your time?


I'm looking for a red seal prep course as well, have you had any luck?


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## markb

1james2 said:


> I'm looking for a red seal prep course as well, have you had any luck?


I found this one course from Stamford Collage. 

http://www.scbt.ca/Pre-exam(Plumber).htm

I don't know how good it is, but it is the only class that I can find.


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## wundumguy

I just found out today that we have an Ontario apprentice in our school, Pacific Vocational College. He was in my Level 2 and is in my Level 3 (final exam is tomorrow morning). He's on a flight home tomorrow afternoon. I go into Level 4 in two weeks and found out he's also registered for that class! So, I asked him why an ON apprentice plumber would come all the way out here for school.

He says it's easier here, and ON doesn't include Gas Fitter "B". We have an accelerated program at PVC, Levels 1 to 4 is only 22 weeks (2 weeks less than ON's), but we also cover Gas "B". And, we all write the same final exam for plumbing. So, I don't know what to make of his reply about it being easier here.


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## plumbing tutor

wundumguy said:


> I just found out today that we have an Ontario apprentice in our school, Pacific Vocational College. He was in my Level 2 and is in my Level 3 (final exam is tomorrow morning). He's on a flight home tomorrow afternoon. I go into Level 4 in two weeks and found out he's also registered for that class! So, I asked him why an ON apprentice plumber would come all the way out here for school.
> 
> He says it's easier here, and ON doesn't include Gas Fitter "B". We have an accelerated program at PVC, Levels 1 to 4 is only 22 weeks (2 weeks less than ON's), but we also cover Gas "B". And, we all write the same final exam for plumbing. So, I don't know what to make of his reply about it being easier here.


 Hi Wundumguy, I would definately say the schooling outside Ontario is not easier. We have a curriculum to follow as your province does. I believe your instructors are probably leaving out the "fluff" stuff. 
As for the gas licence, I am not sure if he will be able to work on gas here unless he writes the TSSA licencing exam. 
If " Joe" thinks attending PVC is easier, good for him, what ever works for him is fine. I think you should just learn your material, write and hopefully pass the exam and not worry about what this guy says. 
Good luck.


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## wundumguy

I'm not sure how "joe" ended up. We were in different classes for the last course. We wrote the exam on the same date, but at different test locations.

I passed the Red Seal exam a couple weeks ago with 89% on the first attempt. My test score was not the highest in my class, and I did not expect it to be! In hindsight, I regret not trying harder. This is a once in a lifetime experience and I should have found the motivation to do some studying on the weekends. The exam itself was fun - I had fun writing it.

Maximum exam time was 4 hours.
My personal time was 3 hours.
Most in my class finished in less than 3 hours.

Having experienced the exam for myself, I'm not sure I can feel much compassion for apprentices that fail it more than once. The claims about it being unfair because of "specialty systems" and "regional advantages" is just an excuse for laziness or lack of effort. The exam is equally unfair to everyone as some questions are "unfair" to a BC apprentice and some questions are "unfair" to an ON apprentice. Furthermore, some questions are "unfair" because, god forbid, they simply require a minimum level of common sense. Anybody can pass this exam if they simply didn't drink too much, get high too often, go out every night, etc. If an apprentice gave an honest effort, and paid attention at work and in class, there is no reason he cannot pass.

There does exist reasonable excuses such as:
1. Bad instructor or school.
2. Bad employer or work experience opportunities.
3. Forced to work after school and/or weekends.
4. Wife is expecting or (even worse) just gave birth.
5. Extreme test anxiety.
6. English second language.
7. Learning disability.

However, most that fail the exam cannot legitimately make such a claim.


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## plumbing tutor

Well Wundumguy you may have to change your name to Wunlicenceddumguy. lol. Congratulations on passing the Red Seal Interprovincial Plumbing Exam. I know Ontario was writing a pink and yellow exam and heard they added a blue and some other colour exam, are your exams colour coded?


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## wundumguy

Well, I had other things on my mind at the time and don't remember if the exam was colour coded.

Our school had two classes sitting that exam session. I went out for dinner and drinks with a couple of classmates and one of the school's instructors last night. Our entire class passed the exam. I don't know what percentage of students in "Joe's" class passed, but the highest mark, 94% went to a student in his class.


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## PeroMK

I have just received my Certificate and I would like to share my experience.

I failed at first attempt, I had 64%
After one month I tried again and I passed with 81%!

I came to Canada in April, and I have 10 yrs experience with strong background in Hydronic Heating Systems. I came from Macedonia and plumbing here is way different from there. I studied most of the time from the 2005 NPC and some materials that my friend borrowed to me (He passed his exam 4 years ago, but he had 3 months prep. at George Brown C.)
I have studied from these materials and Code book for two months (4-5 hrs a day), and I think that intensive studying filled the gap in my Canadian experience (I have just 4 months Can. exp.)

Thanks to all members of this Forum for sharing their experiences and opinions


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## SlickRick

Congrats. on a major milestone. I know it must feel great!


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## Plumber808

*plumbing c of q exam study guide*

There is some new c of q study guide out to help pass the plumbing c of q. I got mine at the george brown college book store but i think they sell them at noble trade and online. Anyways it helped, so i thought i would share it with everyone. If anyone wants the link click here


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## plumber666

Had Dale Pfaff for 3rd year. What a character.
Sounds like a whole bunch of pretest jitters around here. During my short teaching career, I got a lot of amusement from that. Well, from handing back the test results and saying, "That wasn't so bad, was it?"
Something wierd has been going on in BC, though. Test results are at an historical low and the powers that be are trying to figure it out. Could have something to do with the huge building boom that crashed recently. Anybody with a pulse could get a plumbing job, and things were so busy employers got lax on the on the job training. Government handing the whole administration of the trades programmes to the semi-independant Industrial Training Authority. That had things messy for quite a while, too.
Apprenticeship hours went down, too. When I apprenticed, it was a 4 year deal, 4 calander years, with a minimum of hours per year. Now it's a minimum amount of hours, and I've heard of guys going in to write their RED Seal test with only like 2 1/2 years on the tools. Thus, the ITA is kicking around the idea of boosting the minimum hours up 900 more.
This is all backlash from the boom that felt like it would never end here.
But back on topic, of you've worked hard and studied hard, you will pass, and congratulations in advance!! Yeah, there's service work questions that a commercial plumber won't know. Heat exchanger questions a rezzie guy won't know. We have the coolest, widest ranging trade that there is and the test reflects that. But there won't be enough oddball questions to put you into the proverbial toilet.


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## TITANPLUMBER33

You guys also get trained on national code in Ontario our course is outlined still as ontario code I'd love to see you guys come to ontario and write 1 of our old exams.


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## TITANPLUMBER33

Mega Smash said:


> I'm sure you know this, but the NPC is very similar to the OPC, except for the reference numbers. Oh, it's also printed on larger paper.
> 
> When I wrote my CofQ, it took me about 5mins, and I was used to using the NPC. Mind you, I was also very familiar with the OPC.
> 
> It would *greatly benefit* you, or anyone else who is looking to write to get yourself familiar with how the appendix works, and the diagrams it uses. I was surprised at how many of the questions could be answered, with 100% certainty just by using the appendixes and references in the back of the NPC.


fjh


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## TITANPLUMBER33

PeroMK said:


> I have just received my Certificate and I would like to share my experience.
> 
> I failed at first attempt, I had 64%
> After one month I tried again and I passed with 81%!
> 
> I came to Canada in April, and I have 10 yrs experience with strong background in Hydronic Heating Systems. I came from Macedonia and plumbing here is way different from there. I studied most of the time from the 2005 NPC and some materials that my friend borrowed to me (He passed his exam 4 years ago, but he had 3 months prep. at George Brown C.)
> I have studied from these materials and Code book for two months (4-5 hrs a day), and I think that intensive studying filled the gap in my Canadian experience (I have just 4 months Can. exp.)
> 
> Thanks to all members of this Forum for sharing their experiences and opinions


so you came here with a temp license and bought an exam then challenged the cfq? brutal


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## jasonmalhi

*hi*

hi I am a plumber in toronto and I have wrote the exam and i found it really hard, i was wondering if someone could help with the exam thanks


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## SlickRick

jasonmalhi said:


> hi I am a plumber in toronto and I have wrote the exam and i found it really hard, i was wondering if someone could help with the exam thanks


*Hello! Introduction Requested* 
An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/.

The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession)

Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field.

This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is.

We look forward to your valuable input.


----------



## SlickRick

TITANPLUMBER33 said:


> so you came here with a temp license and bought an exam then challenged the cfq? brutal


*Hello! Introduction Requested* 
An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/.

The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession)

Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field.

This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is.

We look forward to your valuable input.


----------



## man4u

i have a leakage in my basement


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## easttexasplumb

man4u said:


> i have a leakage in my basement


:huh:


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## SlickRick

man4u said:


> i have a leakage in my basement


Are you too stupid to fix it?


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## U666A

SlickRick said:


> Are you too stupid to fix it?


Clearly... I just read the "how much do you charge" thread, and now this monkey... Exhausting!!!

Sick 'em Slick!


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## TITANPLUMBER33

nipthedog said:


> IMO, red seal exams SHOULD be difficult. IMO, too many young people today want instant gratification and aren't prepared to do what it takes to earn, learn and survive in todays world. If you only got 68%, you have some learning left to do. Plumbing isn't a video game, it is all about public health, and requires real brain work. Instead of complaining to the board that the test is too hard, study hard on the areas that you had trouble with, rewrite it, and maybe then you'll ace it. Personally I would be very unhappy if I only got 70% and actually passed.


I also aced all exams in trade school and would love to see journeyman that wrote the cofq 4 years ago and passed with an 80% just try and write the national exam you wouldn't even come close to passing. I did pass on my first try but it was the hardest test I have ever seen considering our teachers didn't know what to teach and we were told it would be based on field training. Note not all plumbers do service work. nip the dog you would fail miserably!!!


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## wundumguy

Oh, don't embellish so much. Recent years of the Red Seal Plumber exam are pretty brain dead. In my sitting in 2010, we had a combined class of over 30 apprentices and every single one passed. Think about it. An immigrant Plumber with self-study and 4 months Canadian experience managed to score 81% on the second attempt. It can't be a difficult exam for a local with several levels of subsidized trade school and 4 years of local experience.


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## TITANPLUMBER33

wundumguy said:


> oh, don't embellish so much. Recent years of the red seal plumber exam are pretty brain dead. In my sitting in 2010, we had a combined class of over 30 apprentices and every single one passed. Think about it. An immigrant plumber with self-study and 4 months canadian experience managed to score 81% on the second attempt. It can't be a difficult exam for a local with several levels of subsidized trade school and 4 years of local experience.



just so you know the majority of foreign plumbers that come to this country have a temporary liscence from there country. Most countries have little or know code, basically put pipe together and be done with it. When they come here they apply for the temporary saying they are qualified. They have three months to learn the code and challenge the cofq. But from what i learned is they are coming here and buying copies of the exam and studying them, then going into the exams knowing more answers than most domestic plumbers. I know this for sure because i worked with 11++ foreigners who all had temporaries and eventually became journeyman. But all this said at that time i was a 3rd year apprentice and the owners paid me more because these so called journeyman couldn't rough - in a kitchen sink, let alone pass an exam that someone else hasn't already copied and sold to them. Sickening!!!!!


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## markb

TITANPLUMBER33 said:


> just so you know the majority of foreign plumbers that come to this country have a temporary liscence from there country. Most countries have little or know code, basically put pipe together and be done with it. When they come here they apply for the temporary saying they are qualified. They have three months to learn the code and challenge the cofq. But from what i learned is they are coming here and buying copies of the exam and studying them, then going into the exams knowing more answers than most domestic plumbers. I know this for sure because i worked with 11++ foreigners who all had temporaries and eventually became journeyman. But all this said at that time i was a 3rd year apprentice and the owners paid me more because these so called journeyman couldn't rough - in a kitchen sink, let alone pass an exam that someone else hasn't already copied and sold to them. Sickening!!!!!


Do you live in Ontario, Canada? Because it sure sounds like this neck of the woods:yes:


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## TITANPLUMBER33

markb said:


> do you live in ontario, canada? Because it sure sounds like this neck of the woods:yes:



yes ontario canada, namely toronto but i imagine it happens in more than just toronto.


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## PeroMK

titanplumber33, I don't know how can you generalize that every foreign plumber is unqualified? That your opinion is immature and rather insulting for plumbers who have been in the business for 10+ years.
I agree with you that there are many plumbers (foreign, but and local too) who don't even know to solder two 1/2" pipes (!!) I saw that with my own eyes!
Second thing is, I really can't understand how an apprentice with 5 yrs of experience and in-school training can't pass this exam. Almost 2/3 of the questions are directly from the NPC. The rest is about pumps, specialized systems and some safety issues, which can be found in the plumbing books from George Brown college (and from other colleges, i believe so). If someone has worked in the trade for 5 years, there is no need to learn more than 1-2 months from this literature, because every question is from everyday work and if you are in the trade, you should know everything about that.


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## TITANPLUMBER33

PeroMK said:


> titanplumber33, I don't know how can you generalize that every foreign plumber is unqualified? That your opinion is immature and rather insulting for plumbers who have been in the business for 10+ years.
> I agree with you that there are many plumbers (foreign, but and local too) who don't even know to solder two 1/2" pipes (!!) I saw that with my own eyes!
> Second thing is, I really can't understand how an apprentice with 5 yrs of experience and in-school training can't pass this exam. Almost 2/3 of the questions are directly from the NPC. The rest is about pumps, specialized systems and some safety issues, which can be found in the plumbing books from George Brown college (and from other colleges, i believe so). If someone has worked in the trade for 5 years, there is no need to learn more than 1-2 months from this literature, because every question is from everyday work and if you are in the trade, you should know everything about that.


I am not saying every foreign plumber, but I will say that the majority that have moved here in the past 5 years have easy access to exams within the Toronto area, I know this for a fact as I was also offered these exams and gladly turned them down because I know it would have helped me pass the exam, but nothing more and that would be cheating myself and anyone that I work for. I am not arguing for myself I have already passed the exam first try. But you should know that in this trade some plumbers do zero plumbing throughout their career, just all pre-fabed stuff either flanged, welded or threaded into place. No we didn't have access to other books on specialized systems, pumps or safety, just the minimal amount we learned in school. I would also like to point out that when we did some practice exams in school we were given some stuff from the exams and I will say that about 30% of the questions were wrong. Our teacher even went through them with us and a lot were wrong now if we go into an exam knowing what we know in our trade but someone else makes these exams and makes a mistake, who is wrong them or us??????


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## TITANPLUMBER33

TITANPLUMBER33 said:


> I am not saying every foreign plumber, but I will say that the majority that have moved here in the past 5 years have easy access to exams within the Toronto area, I know this for a fact as I was also offered these exams and gladly turned them down because I know it would have helped me pass the exam, but nothing more and that would be cheating myself and anyone that I work for. I am not arguing for myself I have already passed the exam first try. But you should know that in this trade some plumbers do zero plumbing throughout their career, just all pre-fabed stuff either flanged, welded or threaded into place. No we didn't have access to other books on specialized systems, pumps or safety, just the minimal amount we learned in school. I would also like to point out that when we did some practice exams in school we were given some stuff from the exams and I will say that about 30% of the questions were wrong. Our teacher even went through them with us and a lot were wrong now if we go into an exam knowing what we know in our trade but someone else makes these exams and makes a mistake, who is wrong them or us??????


I am sorry man if you are from another country but I feel that it is wrong that this is allowed, Canada has one of or maybe the most strict plumbing code in the world we have to go through 9000 hours of our apprenticeship, but others can make up Julios plumbing from wherever and have the "owner" sign them off and they are free from doing the 9000 hours. How is that fair for me or the next apprentice looking for a job????


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## markb

In Toronto there is a problem with unqualified individuals getting Red Seal qualifications. Of course, there is nothing wrong with qualified immigrants writing the exam, but there is a lot of cheating that goes on. The more unqualified plumbers there are, the less respect we all receive on the job.


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## Plumber patt

Shouldn't that just be motivation to be the better plumber on site? Regardless of how qualified some people are or aren't, it shouldn't matter, the bottom line is, if u are better at your job and u care and did the proper exam and schooling it shouldn't matter, u will get further along, we all know that the only thing your employer cares about is performance, if u "bought" your way to a license, all your going to be is a gofer, if u busted your butt like most of us you will be foreman, it's simple, no point of getting all bent out of shape over it


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## TITANPLUMBER33

Plumber patt said:


> Shouldn't that just be motivation to be the better plumber on site? Regardless of how qualified some people are or aren't, it shouldn't matter, the bottom line is, if u are better at your job and u care and did the proper exam and schooling it shouldn't matter, u will get further along, we all know that the only thing your employer cares about is performance, if u "bought" your way to a license, all your going to be is a gofer, if u busted your butt like most of us you will be foreman, it's simple, no point of getting all bent out of shape over it


I totally disagree, do you know that doctor's regulate the amount of new doctors that come in every year and to what area. There are only so many jobs out there man and if unqualified people take them there won't be any left. Yeah you can say they won't last long but you are wrong they stay with companies but get paid less, it is wrong on all levels they should not be allowed to be a journeyman until they complete an apprenticeship, it is only fair.


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## Plumber patt

TITANPLUMBER33 said:


> I totally disagree, do you know that doctor's regulate the amount of new doctors that come in every year and to what area. There are only so many jobs out there man and if unqualified people take them there won't be any left. Yeah you can say they won't last long but you are wrong they stay with companies but get paid less, it is wrong on all levels they should not be allowed to be a journeyman until they complete an apprenticeship, it is only fair.


Ya but that is also the employers fault for keeping un qualified people working, they are just as much at fault as the state or province is letting them buy their license


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## Dmaz

Just wrote my IP on Friday. Didn't find it too bad, but there was some questions I wasn't expecting. Pretty sure I'm sitting around an 85 on it.


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## U666A

Dmaz said:


> Just wrote my IP on Friday. Didn't find it too bad, but there was some questions I wasn't expecting. Pretty sure I'm sitting around an 85 on it.


Like what type of questions did you not expect?

I still have copies of two different Ontario tests on a flashdrive somewhere


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## Dmaz

Amount you derate the pressure rating of sch 80 PVC pipe when you thread it. 
25%, 35%, 40%, or 50%.

What type of pipe can't be used in a fertilizer plant; copper, glass, sch 40 carbon steel or sch 80 galvanized. 

What type of pipe can be used for LPG. Type g copper, or galvanized. Can't remember if that was above ground installation or below. 

There was a couple other ones, but those are the only two that are jumping out at me right now.


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## plumbing tutor

*UA Till I Die*

Love your end quote "those who can't, teach, those who can't teach inspect" 
Good one, but don't forget we have something in our back pocket that you don't. Oh you don't know what that is? It is a licence, we have already been where you are, we have gone through what you have. 
We also have life experience! You young punks think you know it all, have life by the balls so to speak. When you grow up and show your elders the respect we deserve you then will be able to grasp the pebble, grass hopper!:laughing:


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## Mohawk2008

Hi Folks. 

I graduated from Mohawk in March 2008. It was a good experience, albeit somewhat frustrating. 

For basic and intermediate, we used the 1996 Ontario code. For advanced, we had 2006 Ontario codebooks (great, there go all my strategic reference markings and side notes). 

At the very end of my advanced term, the program director told us that the Ministry of Colleges, Training, and Universities is implementing a change in the certificate of qualification exam for Plumbers. 

"You'll be using a different codebook than you have now." he told us. 

They were scrapping the Ontario test. I would be given a national codebook when I went to write my c of q. My exit exam from Mohawk was the Ontario book. The national book isn't too much different than the updated 2006 ontario book, because the new ontario code adopted much of the national code with it (from what I'm told). Personally, I saw nothing wrong with modified stack venting and liked it just the way it goddamn was... But I digress. 

I wanted to get my hands on one of these codebooks, but apparently, they weren't in mass print yet. 

"Bull****." I thought.

I wanted to get it over with as soon as possible, before the math that I didn't use on-site every day faded away, and all the **** about septic tanks and leeching beds and wells and all kinds of stuff that I'd never in my life need to think about again was forgotten. 

When I went to write my exam in Toronto the following week, I was given 400 some-odd pieces of 8.5" x 11" unbound, unpunched, unstapled paper and told that was the codebook I would be using for my test. 

"I guess it's not bull****." I thought. 

An hour and a half into the exam, I had loose paper from this strange code and it's weird citations spread across 3 desks. It was madness. 

I started running out of time and had to rush. I wish I didn't. I ended up with 68%. 

I rewrote 2 months later. Oh, nice, a real codebook this time. 62%. ****. Time equals memory loss. I didn't study enough. 

If only I'd had the option of writing the old ontario test.... Seemed fair, really, considering MTCU didn't give colleges fair warning of the implemented changes, and thusly, the colleges continued to teach code citations that were effectively moot. Time is money on the test - you need to know where that information is in that book. 

Frustrated, i decided to go back to college and get some business education at Sheridan. After that, I opened a small renovation and home repair business. 

Now, here I am, three years after finishing my apprenticeship, 9 years after starting on the pipes, and I'm still not licensed. I had basically given up and moved on to other ventures, but everything comes back around. 

The longer I wait to get my ticket the more of a fool I am. The longer I wait, the more studying I'll have to do to refresh. Now Im registering for an update course. 

Soon, I will be where I should have been three years ago. 

As long as you're taking the test that goes along with the book you studied in all three terms, the exam should be a breeze.


----------



## plumbing tutor

Hey Mowhawk Apprentice
You will be very disappointed if you think that you will pass the Red Seal by only studying the modules you have the option of purchasing through you local college. 
Unfortunately you were caught in the "transition" period. I have expressed my displeasure with the ministry many times, so much that do not want to hear from me. This along with the new governing body (The College of Trades) will affect how much it will cost you to become a licenced plumber in Ontario. 
I hope you have experience with hydronics, natural gas, medical gas, septics, safety, hoisting and rigging, just to name a few. As the ministry wants well rounded qualified tradespersons, not just housing guys licenced. I believe that is good for our trade overall but is a little unrealistic. If you still have your grey appreniceship book go over it and make sure you have knowledge/experience of at least 80% of the topics and you should expect to pass.
Good luck. PS. Search the internet, there are many valuable free resources out there.


----------



## Mohawk2008

I aced all three terms of trade school. Medi gas and Hydronics are my weak points, but I'm confident that after the update course that I'm taking (Conestoga, 8 saturdays in a row, 60 hours total) that I'll be able to pass the exam. 

I've done several textbook mock exams in the past week, and after three years of not even opening and doing just as much trade math, I'm pulling mid 60's, percent wise. After a refresher course, I'm sure ill be nailing mid 80's. 

Yes, the transition period. I tried to appeal it, through collective petitions signed by classmates of that graduating year. Unfortunately, due to the largely union-based demographic of the class, their underworked, overprivleged, gimme-gimme mentality brought an ambient indifference to the populus. 

The Ministry is no fan of me, either. I innundated them with emails, phone calls, had the Oakville Beaver and Burlington Post trying to get statements regarding disconcern for Apprentices in so-called "demand".... But they only care if it affects PR. The MCTU doesn't give a raw f**k about the students. 

Don't get me wrong, Mr. Tutor, I do not expect anything to be easy. It would have been a breeze, however, had I been given the opportunity to write the proper test to my schooling. 

Glad I kept all my notes and copies of all the tests I did. 

You're very right about unrealistic expectations on behalf of the ministry; how is it justifiable to make gas a different trade, and yet ask gas related questions on the exam? Flagrant lunacy. If sprinklerfitters and gas fitters are different licences, as well as backflow, then there should be one for hydronics, residential, commercial, ici, etc. 

I've been searching the net for resources to info and whatnot, there's more than I expected to find. 

Thanks for the tips! I always appreciate advice from a veteran. 

(Unlike some, I respect those who teach the art of our trade...)


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## Mohawk2008

Does anyone know Jim Harvie?? I had him as a prof for intermediate at mohawk. That guy was awesome.


----------



## plumbing tutor

I am pleased to hear you aced all your schooling. I believe the questions on Medical gas are pretty much common sense. (how/where do you store med. gas pipe? Capped and in a clean area. Where is the exhaust from a med. gas relief valve discharge, Outside. And the pipe must be chemically degreased and purged with Nitrogen b4 used in operation. Hydronics are a little tougher, there are many more questions. You should know where the pumps are located, the area of no pressure change, removing air, air scoops/vents. Can't really think of more of the top of my head. 
How much is the upgrade course costing you? I heard GBC has one for $300. 
There is a book out there from a student of GBC, good questions, lets you know the type of questions asked etc...
A lot of kids now a days are of the impression of what can I do for them instead of what can they do for themselves. I expect everybody to work hard, learn our trade, be the best you can be. And give back to your trade by being a good role model, menter and foreman to the new apprentices. 
I kept all my notes, so twenty yrs. later when it was time for me to teach, I had a good base. I always tried to keep up with the code by having the apprentices asking me code type questions. Helped keep me up to date.
The ministry knows you may be working on sprinklers, septics etc... and need to make sure you do it as safe as possible, after all that is why we have a code book ( to ensure public safety through a minimal standardization) 
If you want send me a private email and we can talk more about the exam etc...


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## U666A

Mohawk2008 said:


> I aced all three terms of trade school. Medi gas and Hydronics are my weak points, but I'm confident that after the update course that I'm taking (Conestoga, 8 saturdays in a row, 60 hours total) that I'll be able to pass the exam.
> 
> I've done several textbook mock exams in the past week, and after three years of not even opening and doing just as much trade math, I'm pulling mid 60's, percent wise. After a refresher course, I'm sure ill be nailing mid 80's.
> 
> Yes, the transition period. I tried to appeal it, through collective petitions signed by classmates of that graduating year. Unfortunately, due to the largely union-based demographic of the class, their underworked, overprivleged, gimme-gimme mentality brought an ambient indifference to the populus.
> 
> The Ministry is no fan of me, either. I innundated them with emails, phone calls, had the Oakville Beaver and Burlington Post trying to get statements regarding disconcern for Apprentices in so-called "demand".... But they only care if it affects PR. The MCTU doesn't give a raw f**k about the students.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, Mr. Tutor, I do not expect anything to be easy. It would have been a breeze, however, had I been given the opportunity to write the proper test to my schooling.
> 
> Glad I kept all my notes and copies of all the tests I did.
> 
> You're very right about unrealistic expectations on behalf of the ministry; how is it justifiable to make gas a different trade, and yet ask gas related questions on the exam? Flagrant lunacy. If sprinklerfitters and gas fitters are different licences, as well as backflow, then there should be one for hydronics, residential, commercial, ici, etc.
> 
> I've been searching the net for resources to info and whatnot, there's more than I expected to find.
> 
> Thanks for the tips! I always appreciate advice from a veteran.
> 
> (Unlike some, I respect those who teach the art of our trade...)


Listen hear buddy, I made the Dean's list at Mohawk during EVERY term, and so did most of my union brothers.

I don't know where you are getting this attitude from, union apprentices are made to take mandatory classes at their local union hall throughout the entire apprenticeship.

If anyone had an attitude in trade school it was jealous people like you that had a hard time keeping up and blamed the union guys for being too far ahead.

Shame on you for slinging mud like that.

Btw, Jim Harvie is a functioning retard


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## U666A

plumbing tutor said:


> Love your end quote "those who can't, teach, those who can't teach inspect"
> Good one, but don't forget we have something in our back pocket that you don't. Oh you don't know what that is? It is a licence, we have already been where you are, we have gone through what you have.
> We also have life experience! You young punks think you know it all, have life by the balls so to speak. When you grow up and show your elders the respect we deserve you then will be able to grasp the pebble, grass hopper!:laughing:


??? Where the hell did all of that come from??? Simply a joke, didn't realize any plumber's skin was that thin...


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## Plumberman

U.A.til.I.die said:


> ??? Where the hell did all of that come from??? Simply a joke, didn't realize any plumber's skin was that thin...


Got that young comment the other day as well.

Sounds like some of these elders need to get a re fill on their Geritol.


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## U666A

Plumberman said:


> Got that young comment the other day as well.
> 
> Sounds like some of these elders need to get a re fill on their Geritol.


Lol, I didn't read it til today. I don't believe I have ever stated my age on this forum before. I have merely made jokes about guys like OS and Red being old, and if by contrast, being younger than those two octogenarians, makes me a whippersnapper... Excellent. As for being offended by my sig, get over it! I have used that line on many o local inspectors as well as teachers when I was in school. Always got a chuckle. Maybe you're right about the geritol... Just grab a glass of prune juice and cozy up with a couple reruns of matlock, and everything will be fine.


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## Plumberman

U.A.til.I.die said:


> Lol, I didn't read it til today. I don't believe I have ever stated my age on this forum before. I have merely made jokes about guys like OS and Red being old, and if by contrast, being younger than those two octogenarians, makes me a whippersnapper... Excellent. As for being offended by my sig, get over it! I have used that line on many o local inspectors as well as teachers when I was in school. Always got a chuckle. Maybe you're right about the geritol... Just grab a glass of prune juice and cozy up with a couple reruns of matlock, and everything will be fine.


Prune juice... Lol


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## Plumber patt

Mohawk2008 said:


> Hi Folks.
> 
> I graduated from Mohawk in March 2008. It was a good experience, albeit somewhat frustrating.
> 
> For basic and intermediate, we used the 1996 Ontario code. For advanced, we had 2006 Ontario codebooks (great, there go all my strategic reference markings and side notes).
> 
> At the very end of my advanced term, the program director told us that the Ministry of Colleges, Training, and Universities is implementing a change in the certificate of qualification exam for Plumbers.
> 
> "You'll be using a different codebook than you have now." he told us.
> 
> They were scrapping the Ontario test. I would be given a national codebook when I went to write my c of q. My exit exam from Mohawk was the Ontario book. The national book isn't too much different than the updated 2006 ontario book, because the new ontario code adopted much of the national code with it (from what I'm told). Personally, I saw nothing wrong with modified stack venting and liked it just the way it goddamn was... But I digress.
> 
> I wanted to get my hands on one of these codebooks, but apparently, they weren't in mass print yet.
> 
> "Bull****." I thought.
> 
> I wanted to get it over with as soon as possible, before the math that I didn't use on-site every day faded away, and all the **** about septic tanks and leeching beds and wells and all kinds of stuff that I'd never in my life need to think about again was forgotten.
> 
> When I went to write my exam in Toronto the following week, I was given 400 some-odd pieces of 8.5" x 11" unbound, unpunched, unstapled paper and told that was the codebook I would be using for my test.
> 
> "I guess it's not bull****." I thought.
> 
> An hour and a half into the exam, I had loose paper from this strange code and it's weird citations spread across 3 desks. It was madness.
> 
> I started running out of time and had to rush. I wish I didn't. I ended up with 68%.
> 
> I rewrote 2 months later. Oh, nice, a real codebook this time. 62%. ****. Time equals memory loss. I didn't study enough.
> 
> If only I'd had the option of writing the old ontario test.... Seemed fair, really, considering MTCU didn't give colleges fair warning of the implemented changes, and thusly, the colleges continued to teach code citations that were effectively moot. Time is money on the test - you need to know where that information is in that book.
> 
> Frustrated, i decided to go back to college and get some business education at Sheridan. After that, I opened a small renovation and home repair business.
> 
> Now, here I am, three years after finishing my apprenticeship, 9 years after starting on the pipes, and I'm still not licensed. I had basically given up and moved on to other ventures, but everything comes back around.
> 
> The longer I wait to get my ticket the more of a fool I am. The longer I wait, the more studying I'll have to do to refresh. Now Im registering for an update course.
> 
> Soon, I will be where I should have been three years ago.
> 
> As long as you're taking the test that goes along with the book you studied in all three terms, the exam should be a breeze.


I don't agree with your last sentence, or your whole statement in general actually, I learned Ontario code my whole apprenticeship, I wrote my cfq one year ago, writing Canadian code after learning Ontario is 100% different, there are over 360 differences between the two codes, that exam is not a breeze in any way shape or form, you failing twice has nothing to do with how you were taught, it is a complete reflection on how prepared you were, I studied for two weeks, I wrote the exam in 2 hours 11 minutes, I passed with 89%, I was fully prepared and did not waste time. The fact the you are upset that you couldn't write the Ontario test is a little ridiculous, you are upset that you couldn't have the easy way out, If I were you I would be happy to write the new test because it forces you to be better as a professional plumber. That is just my opinion, I think your attitude towards it is not right, but again, that's just my opinion


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## shock1964

I did my training at NAIT. Could not have been happier with the quality of training received. Sure we had 'issues', I think that is just part of being a student. Looking back, I see things differently than when I was an apprentice.
Complaining about code book changes during schooling is wrong. Those changes actually reflect the reality you will experience over the next 20 to 40 years or so in the trade if you are fortunate enough. In the over 20 years since I started not only have code books changed numerous times, the materials, and mechanics are also constantly changing. This is just life. While it may not seem fair while in school, you may as well learn early on that your learning is going to be life-long, and what you were allowed to do last week may no longer be allowed in the same way.
That said, I have enjoyed reading thru this thread and seeing some of the differences thru our country for training. 
Get and value your red seal. I wish we had one for gas. Was a real problem for me when I moved from Alberta to BC 10 years ago. The courses I had to take to be certified in BC were a good refresher tho.


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## U666A

I don't know where the holier than thou, pretentious prima dona attitude has come from. I also suffered a code change during my upbringing and it made me better for it. As I understand, there will be another code book change in Ontario sometime in the next 24 months. I have a stack of papers on proposed code changes an inch thick. Some are good, some I'm indifferent on, and some are either just plain ridiculous or so convoluted with contradictions of themselves that they just plain don't make any sense.

Fact is, as someone already stated, the materials are ever changing, as are the installing techniques. 

Also, building design as well as the "green" movement, are revolutionizing the way systems are designed and put into practice.

Changes to the code are needed to be made on an ongoing basis, and I for one, embrace change. I try my best to stay involved with what's going on in the world with repect to my trade as well as organized labour. That is why I subscribe to several publications (PE, UA journal etc.) and why I am am active member of Le Zone.

Don't fear change, just don't get left behind...


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## plumsolver

*refresher course*

Yeah I agree the Red seal is very tough for an exam its definatly challenging I have personally tried it more than once and have just recently found a course offered in toronto that was one week in length and feel 100 percent better about writing on monday the teacher knew his stuff and presented it very well as for now the price is nothing the ministry footed the bill. Actually i really hope i get it this time because I'm about 3/4 finished starting my own business and would really some insurance.


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## Plumber patt

Mr. Blundell @ George brown your teacher?


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## mikek

*help*

Originally Posted by *mikek*  
_Hi everyone my name is mike and i have been trying to pass this red *seal* exam for sometime and i been getting very close about 69% to about 65% lately.

I do very well on the exam for the most part but i find myself failing in the areas of specialize systems
which consists of 1)installing piping/equipement for fuel systems
2)installs of medical gas systems
3)installs of irrigation systems
4)installs of compressed gas systems
5)installs of fire protections
6) Installs of process piping

also having problems in the area of Maintenance and Repairs 
[*]of systems and components
[*]and trouble shooting and components
if anyone knows links or where i can find some information that can help me i would love to hear from ya! thanks mike_


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