# Pex slab leak



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I got a call on my first pex slab leak. I have it located, can't wait to see what caused the leak. The guy has a problem with gophers. We will see....

There is a vaulted ceiling, no re-route on this one. I don't like the idea of splicing the line, but I may be forced to.

Nibco pipe and fittings.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Is it on the hot side? Is it CPI DuraPex which is pre Nibco?

If so I'll go "All In" on the tubing being split with many more splits to come.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Go get it cowboy.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Is it on the hot side? Is it CPI DuraPex which is pre Nibco?
> 
> If so I'll go "All In" on the tubing being split with many more splits to come.



It is on the hot side.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

I have always wondered if Gophers and moles could smell or sense the water in the pipe. If they can, and with this drought that could be a problem. 


Don't worry about using fittings under the slab Rick, as long as you wrap them them with 10 mil tape it is all "good".


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## plumbob78 (May 8, 2009)

That's why I don't like pex. If it was copper there would be no worries about the repair. Let me know how the repair goes.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

plumbob78 said:


> That's why I don't like pex. If it was copper there would be no worries about the repair. Let me know how the repair goes.


 

Two shartbite couplings and off to the next one. :whistling2:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

We've had gophers hit the old gray poly pretty often here. Haven't seen it on pex....YET.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

It was Nibco Nexi-pure. Same problem as the one RW posted. You can really see it from the inside. I will post a picture when I get home.


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## plumbtastic (Apr 27, 2011)

plumbob78 said:


> That's why I don't like pex. If it was copper there would be no worries about the repair. Let me know how the repair goes.


I read where the copper can be so thin and eated up that you cant solder it. protech plumbing has a thread talking about it.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Here it is.

[URL="


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

This may sound dumb but I didnt know you could use pex under a slab.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

plumbtastic said:


> I read where the copper can be so thin and eated up that you cant solder it. protech plumbing has a thread talking about it.


Seen it more than once...


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

tungsten plumb said:


> This may sound dumb but I didnt know you could use pex under a slab.


They say you can.



http://www.ppfahome.org/pex/faqpex.html


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## plumbtastic (Apr 27, 2011)

SlickRick said:


> They say you can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats all we did was pex most of the time. we had 500 feet rools of it and would uncoil and bury it on the rough in. Made my arms sore when I started using it from crimping but its harder for me to crimp than it is for me to clean copper we always used fresh clean copper when we did copper.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

SlickRick said:


> It was Nibco Nexi-pure. Same problem as the one RW posted. You can really see it from the inside. I will post a picture when I get home.


Oh my goodness... :laughing:

Looks like they still haven't fixed that little problem CPI had before they went out of business and sold the manufacturing rights for DuraPex to Nibco...

Of course many of the employees went with the sale as well... :whistling2:

Funny thing though, the liability for defective product didn't go along with the deal and with CPI out of business their customers with defective product (lots of it) found their product was an orphan...

Nibco's insurance carrier Chubb Group was denying all claims...

Let us know how your customer makes out with their claim since their defective tube is actually a Nibco product...


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Oh my goodness... :laughing:
> 
> Looks like they still haven't fixed that little problem CPI had before they went out of business and sold the manufacturing rights for DuraPex to Nibco...
> 
> ...


Expound some on this RW. What was the problem?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

The problem was that the hot lines were splitting just like what you have there and the picture I posted.

Until now the problem seemed to be confined to the Orphaned CPI DuraPex with no recourse for the customers. Nibco's insurance carier Chubb group was denying all claims on CPI tubing.

Nibco is saying they bought the manufacturing rights and hired the CPI employees but they have no liability for the CPI product and CPI is out of business.

Your tubing is Nibco and has the same problem that the CPI DuraPex was exhibiting so your customer probably going to end up with a whole house repipe at some point.... You'll be back for more!

Just google search durapex problems and durapex lawsuit...
You should see plenty, this is actually the first documented failure of the tubing and not the fittings occurring on a large scale with a single manufacturer...


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

State Farm just called, they are going after Nibco for damages.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

SlickRick said:


> State Farm just called, they are going after Nibco for damages.


Another victory (potentially) for the little guy!!! :yes:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

tungsten plumb said:


> This may sound dumb but I didnt know you could use pex under a slab.


 



Not only do they use Pex under a slab, but I worked for companies that looped miles of CPVC under slabs. The CPVC is a time-bomb waiting to go off...:excl:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It's already gone off up here. The huge wave of homes built with it in 2000 are starting to have plenty of problems.

Bring your nitrogen bottle. It's a pain locating them as you can't trace them, they don't conduct sound, there are fittings under the floor so you can't bypass, none of the headings are going to be square under the slab.

Invest in a thermal camera as the majority of the failures are on the hot side.



Tommy plumber said:


> Not only do they use Pex under a slab, but I worked for companies that looped miles of CPVC under slabs. The CPVC is a time-bomb waiting to go off...:excl:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*hot side will always leak*

what really amazes me is people think because its pex
or cpve , it does not need to be insulated with aramaflex under the slab....

we saved ourselves a ton of greif by doing all our slab work over the years with the rule that all hot lines had 
to be completely insulated....

Protech.... I cant immagine all the problems that has to be, dealing with that crap inbedded in concrete....:laughing::laughing:

I can think of a lot more fun things to deal with all day long over beating up someones bathroom looking for leaks line this:yes:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

U666A said:


> Another victory (potentially) for the little guy!!! :yes:


 Not till the fat lady gets thru..


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## Prscptn Plmbng (Feb 15, 2011)

plumbtastic said:


> I read where the copper can be so thin and eated up that you cant solder it. protech plumbing has a thread talking about it.


I've seen it to where you open up the floor get to the pipe and it's so thin it's like putting a 3/4 in fitting on a 1/2 in pipe... Copper in the ground out here is a big mistake...


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## Prscptn Plmbng (Feb 15, 2011)

Redwood said:


> Is it on the hot side? Is it CPI DuraPex which is pre Nibco?
> 
> If so I'll go "All In" on the tubing being split with many more splits to come.


Reminds me of good ole poly...


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Protech said:


> It's already gone off up here. The huge wave of homes built with it in 2000 are starting to have plenty of problems.
> 
> Bring your nitrogen bottle. It's a pain locating them as you can't trace them, they don't conduct sound, there are fittings under the floor so you can't bypass, none of the headings are going to be square under the slab.
> 
> Invest in a thermal camera as the majority of the failures are on the hot side.


 Any copper joints below concrete in my neck of the woods have to be brazed -- Not a liability I've ever been willing to take on.

We always looped the copper up above the slab and then teed in the loops above grade.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Widdershins said:


> Any copper joints below concrete in my neck of the woods have to be brazed -- Not a liability I've ever been willing to take on.
> 
> We always looped the copper up above the slab and then teed in the loops above grade.


Right, but with cpvc, the fittings are always under the floor. And you can't even get your line up like with hard copper because it's usually bowed all over the place.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Protech said:


> Right, but with cpvc, the fittings are always under the floor. And you can't even get your line up like with hard copper because it's usually bowed all over the place.


 Never, ever, ever have I used CPVC for pressure applications.

Made some good money ripping the crap out and replacing it with copper or PEX, though.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Widdershins said:


> Never, ever, ever have I used CPVC for pressure applications.
> 
> Made some good money ripping the crap out and replacing it with copper or PEX, though.


I've run miles of it working other companies in the past. It'll hold water............ as long as it never gets contaminated, frozen, or bumped.......and that's assuming you installed it right.....which no one does.......


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Protech said:


> I've run miles of it working other companies in the past. It'll hold water............ as long as it never gets contaminated, frozen, or bumped.......and that's assuming you installed it right.....which no one does.......


 I gotta be able to sleep at night.

Interestingly enough, the list of installation requirements for CPVC are long enough to knock me right out after the fourth or fifth page.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

I've been running pex under ground sleeved in black utility pipe since 97 and have yet to see the pipe split out. No problems other than the brass or copper fittings. We would never be able to use joints under (concrete)floor here and I wouldnt want to anyway. If the pipe does split out I would just pull the loop and fish another back in.
I have a water hissing call to go on tomorrow. Probably either copper or poly but no water showing up so we'll see.


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## DJenek (May 4, 2011)

I've been putting PEX under a slab for years and never had any major issues.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

DJenek said:


> I've been putting PEX under a slab for years and never had any major issues.



So have I. 

I also insulate it with 1/2" wall pipe insulation to protect it from contact with contaminates in the back-fill.

Cheap insurance.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

The section I replaced is insulated, but that's it.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

I would have to look into wether or not Pex can be buried here. First of all, I have never seen cpvc anywhere in my life other than on the rack at the hardware store. But I also have never seen pex underground.

It does make economical sense if it is allowed, as if you were to bury copper, it must be type K, even for drainage, so commonly it is only run underslab for water service into a building. 

But what do I know, I'm an ICI kind of guy...


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## Prscptn Plmbng (Feb 15, 2011)

U666A said:


> I would have to look into wether or not Pex can be buried here. First of all, I have never seen cpvc anywhere in my life other than on the rack at the hardware store. But I also have never seen pex underground.
> 
> It does make economical sense if it is allowed, as if you were to bury copper, it must be type K, even for drainage, so commonly it is only run underslab for water service into a building.
> 
> But what do I know, I'm an ICI kind of guy...


One of the biggest uses of pex is for hydronic heating.... it's even worse to imbed it directly in the slab, I would think it would last forever in the dirt, I use it for all potable services, in ground and above.


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

Aqua-therm above slab to the rescue!!:thumbup:
http://www.aquathermpipe.com/

Now if the damn engineers and AHJ's would just jump on board.:furious:


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

We sleeve all pressure under ground and also insulate all hot underground or not.


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## plumber666 (Sep 19, 2010)

U666A said:


> I would have to look into wether or not Pex can be buried here. First of all, I have never seen cpvc anywhere in my life other than on the rack at the hardware store. But I also have never seen pex underground.
> 
> It does make economical sense if it is allowed, as if you were to bury copper, it must be type K, even for drainage, so commonly it is only run underslab for water service into a building.
> 
> But what do I know, I'm an ICI kind of guy...


Don't do too much myself, but PEX is the norm for inslab heating here. CPVC is used for hi eff heating venting and residential fire sprinks and thats about it. I've never seen PVC used for above grade drainage untill I saw pics on this site.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

plumber666 said:


> Don't do too much myself, but PEX is the norm for inslab heating here. *CPVC is used for* hi eff heating venting and *residential fire sprinks* and thats about it. I've never seen PVC used for above grade drainage untill I saw pics on this site.


That is probably the worst application for cpvc that was ever conceived. 

check out cpvcfailure.com


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Good sat. 1 easy to find slab leak in a laundry room and 1 piece of bad pex in a water heater closet. The red pex looked faded compared to the other red pex in the wall. Does anyone know if this is a sign of to much sun?


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

DesertOkie said:


> Good sat. 1 easy to find slab leak in a laundry room and 1 piece of bad pex in a water heater closet. The red pex looked faded compared to the other red pex in the wall. Does anyone know if this is a sign of to much sun?


Nice. How do you find your slab leaks? Good ole ear, or leak detector?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

DesertOkie said:


> Good sat. 1 easy to find slab leak in a laundry room and 1 piece of bad pex in a water heater closet. The red pex looked faded compared to the other red pex in the wall. Does anyone know if this is a sign of to much sun?


Did it happen to be Dura-Pex leaking on the hot side?


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

SlickRick said:


> Did it happen to be Dura-Pex leaking on the hot side?


I looked into Dura-Pex when we first started to transition to pex. From everything I've read it sounds like I dodged a bullet.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

SlickRick said:


> Did it happen to be Dura-Pex leaking on the hot side?


I have no idea, no marking at all, the piece was only 6" long. Not really very familiar with pex, I didn't use the stuff till I moved to OK. Not a big fan of crimping.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

89plumbum said:


> Nice. How do you find your slab leaks? Good ole ear, or leak detector?


This one was by hot spot, I figured it was close to the loop coming up to the WH because they had sand and water all around it. It was about 10" away from the riser. Good sized pin hole. Kinda weird the usually leak at the kinks the installers put in when they tried to 90 up in the wall.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

That dull color would leave me to believe it was Nibco or Dura-Pex. We will see many more leaks.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

We repaired a slab leak on 3/4" DuraPEX (hotside) about 4 months ago. We didn't jack hammer up and do a spot repair, so we didn't get to see if it was a gopher bite or if the PEX split on it's own. We looped a pipe overhead and tied it back into the manifold it was feeding. I think it was a gopher that bit the pipe, but it was DuraPEX and was on the hotside, so I guess it could have been the pipe failing and splitting. House was 5-10 years old.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*a good thermal camera...*



Protech said:


> It's already gone off up here. The huge wave of homes built with it in 2000 are starting to have plenty of problems.
> 
> Bring your nitrogen bottle. It's a pain locating them as you can't trace them, they don't conduct sound, there are fittings under the floor so you can't bypass, none of the headings are going to be square under the slab.
> 
> Invest in a thermal camera as the majority of the failures are on the hot side.


 
I got a real mean one to look at today.... very expensive home with a mystery leak pouring out the side of the slab... could possibley be either 2 full bathrooms, or the laundry room pissing into the slab....

.it would be nice and more professional if I could just look at a screen and see where the problem is ... and then CHARGE THEM... for this service.


now that you brought up a thermal camera, do you know of
any brands out there that are good and reliable??? 
Not something from harbor freight please.:no:


looks like after a google search, they are not cheap like $1500...2500.
I probably will just call a place to come out for 300 bucks and find it for them


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

Any under slab pressure water lines should be illegal. Always thought it was dumb!


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

victoryplbaz said:


> Any under slab pressure water lines should be illegal. Always thought it was dumb!


How else would you get water to a house?


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

TallCoolOne said:


> How else would you get water to a house?


Overhead, like power lines.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Overhead, like power lines.


:thumbup:


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

TallCoolOne said:


> How else would you get water to a house?


Like they used to run galvy pipe....over head!! Funny you dont see the sparkys run lines under the house unless its in conduit!! Maybe they know something we dont.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

victoryplbaz said:


> Like they used to run galvy pipe....over head!! Funny you dont see the sparkys run lines under the house unless its in conduit!! Maybe they know something we dont.


Yup, they know they have to protect their pipe.:thumbup:


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

victoryplbaz said:


> Like they used to run galvy pipe....over head!! Funny you dont see the sparkys run lines under the house unless its in conduit!! Maybe they know something we dont.


I have never seen it run overhead before


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

victoryplbaz said:


> Like they used to run galvy pipe....over head!! Funny you dont see the sparkys run lines under the house unless its in conduit!! Maybe they know something we dont.


They know that the pipe they install is not carrying the most corrosive agent on Earth, water.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Houston has homes where galvanized is run overhead and the service enters above the slab...just like gas piping.


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## Anonymous (Jan 7, 2012)

Killertoiletspider said:


> They know that the pipe they install is not carrying the most corrosive agent on Earth, water.


Water is not corrosive ... Oxygen is


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Anonymous said:


> Water is not corrosive ... Oxygen is


The Grand Canyon disagrees with you.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

One of the main advantages to install water underground and below slabs is to keep it from freezing.


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## Anonymous (Jan 7, 2012)

Killertoiletspider said:


> The Grand Canyon disagrees with you.


That would not be corrosion ... That would be erosion


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## Anonymous (Jan 7, 2012)

Will said:


> One of the main advantages to install water underground and below slabs is to keep it from freezing.


And so that people don't trip over it


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Anonymous said:


> That would not be corrosion ... That would erosion


OK, doesn't change the fact that water in motion can be a very destructive agent.

But I appreciate the English lesson.


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## Anonymous (Jan 7, 2012)

Killertoiletspider said:


> OK, doesn't change the fact that water in motion can be a very destructive agent.
> 
> But I appreciate the English lesson.


Just here to educate ... That's all


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Anonymous said:


> Water is not corrosive ... Oxygen is


Guns dont kill people, bullets do......


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## Anonymous (Jan 7, 2012)

Protech said:


> Guns dont kill people, bullets do......


That would be a true statement.... Unless you beat the guy to death with the gun


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Anonymous said:


> That would be a true statement.... Unless you beat the guy to death with the gun


And water can be corrosive even without any oxygen.

pissing contest round 4


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## Anonymous (Jan 7, 2012)

Protech said:


> And water can be corrosive even without any oxygen.
> 
> pissing contest round 4


It took you that long to google that...

Under certain condtions ... That would be a true statement


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

no google, just high school chemistry.


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## Anonymous (Jan 7, 2012)

Protech said:


> no google, just high school chemistry.


Then you must have just graduated last week


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Low ph and that metallic pipe is goneeeee, water is very corrosive when the PH is low

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Mississippiplum said:


> Low ph and that metallic pipe is goneeeee, water is very corrosive when the PH is low
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


It is when the ph is high too.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Anonymous said:


> Then you must have just graduated last week


You do realise this is a plumbing forum and that your comments in no way relate to the OP topic?


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## Anonymous (Jan 7, 2012)

Will said:


> You do realise this is a plumbing forum and that your comments in no way relate to the OP topic?


And neither does yours


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Killertoiletspider said:


> It is when the ph is high too.


That's true also, but it's a lot worse when it's too low.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Anonymous said:


> Then you must have just graduated last week


Lets just say I put my knowledge of chemistry to use when I got out of school.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Mississippiplum said:


> That's true also, but it's a lot worse when it's too low.
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


The corrosive properties of alkali over acid could go around and around, the variables in which is worse are based on the circumstances and material involved.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

I've seen copper totally ate up from acidic water. 
Ive also seen it ate up by hydrogen sulfide as well. 
Also acidic water will eat up fixtures.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

Titan Plumbing said:


> Houston has homes where galvanized is run overhead and the service enters above the slab...just like gas piping.


Really, Never seen it. 

Be kinda old school stuff i guess.

I did spend about 4 months on 1 property of an apartment running new gas main lines 3" poly and finding all the leaks in the apartments.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Killertoiletspider said:


> The corrosive properties of alkali over acid could go around and around, the variables in which is worse are based on the circumstances and material involved.


I agree with you there... changed a bunch of brass fitting on a pool system at a hotel because the PH was to high....

Then went back and changed it again and again.... it was a salt system...and their controls were out of wack... eventually we redid it in stainless...


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