# Old toilet, bits of paper coming back



## hroark2112

The toilet is original to the house, which is an early to mid 80's house. I ran my Rigid toilet auger 6' through the toilet a few times, the auger has the big drop-head on it. Nothing came back and the toilet doesn't clog, even with a wad of paper. Got the call back that after she flushes, bits of paper float back up. No clogs, no burping or bubbling, just paper coming back up.

I told her she needs a new toilet, seems like the flush power is just gone from this one. Am I missing something obvious here? I've been doing mostly industrial, commercial & plant shutdown work for the last 3+ years so my residential skills might be a bit shaky...just want to make sure I'm not missing the obvious here!


----------



## 504Plumber

hroark2112 said:


> The toilet is original to the house, which is an early to mid 80's house. I ran my Rigid toilet auger 6' through the toilet a few times, the auger has the big drop-head on it. Nothing came back and the toilet doesn't clog, even with a wad of paper. Got the call back that after she flushes, bits of paper float back up. No clogs, no burping or bubbling, just paper coming back up.
> 
> I told her she needs a new toilet, seems like the flush power is just gone from this one. Am I missing something obvious here? I've been doing mostly industrial, commercial & plant shutdown work for the last 3+ years so my residential skills might be a bit shaky...just want to make sure I'm not missing the obvious here!


Clean the bowl jets and feel the trap jet to see if it is pushing a good amount of water. Make sure the flapper is staying open enough and there is enough water in the tank.


----------



## Protech

504Plumber said:


> Clean the bowl jets and feel the trap jet to see if it is pushing a good amount of water. Make sure the flapper is staying open enough and there is enough water in the tank.


:yes:


----------



## SlickRick

If it has been going on for a while ,the the jets may be partially blocked. You can take a coat hanger and try to clean them, but it is about time for a new turlet.


----------



## hroark2112

The tank is definitely full & the flapper is working right...I had replaced them not too long ago.

I think the flush holes are all clogged up, and I'm not going to waste a ton of time trying to clean 25+ years of buildup from them....especially on this one. This will be a no-profit job, this is my best friend/former girlfriend who is the customer, and she's a renter.

Thanks for the advice...much appreciated


----------



## OldSchool

Take it out in trade with her....


----------



## hroark2112

...and a friend of hers, if I can!! 

:whistling2:


----------



## rocksteady

504Plumber said:


> Clean the bowl jets and feel the trap jet to see if it is pushing a good amount of water. Make sure the flapper is staying open enough and there is enough water in the tank.


X2

Get a bit of wire and just go in and out of each bowl jet to make sure they're flowing, shouldn't take more than 10 minutes to do a very thorough job. Definitely check the trap jet. I've seen them completely plugged up and after I've broken up the uric salts blocking it, the toilet flushes 100% better. Take a look under the flapper to make sure nothing is sitting below the tank, affecting the flow of water into the bowl. I've seen old bleach tablets fall down there and mess up the way a toilet flushed.




Paul


----------



## RealLivePlumber

I use a brass lower lift rod. Bend it a bit. The thread on it act like a file, and will open the rim jets right up.


----------



## gitnerdun

In the past I have plugged the jet hole with paper and poured muriatic acid down the overflow this will come out the holes in the rim and eat the build up inside rim. I haven't done this in years, it works, and saves money for those who can't afford a new toilet.

Before doing this, try pouring a bucket of water in the bowl quickly. If it takes the bucket with no problem, then try the acid. If it fills the bowl, then the problem is a clogged trapway or further down the line.


----------



## Richard Hilliard

All this effort to prolong the problem, charge one price and replace the problem. If they cannot afford it then and only then prolong the problem for another day. Let them decide if they can afford it.


----------



## Protech

Actually richard, the problem is not the toilet. It's the homeowner and their unwillingness to flush the damn toilet. They will ruin the new toilet in just a few short years as well if they aren't educated and don't change their habits.



Richard Hilliard said:


> All this effort to prolong the problem, charge one price and replace the problem. If they cannot afford it then and only then prolong the problem for another day. Let them decide if they can afford it.


----------



## RealLivePlumber

And once the rim jets are cleared, which is a simple task, it's good for another 20 years.


----------



## Tommy plumber

The way I test for clogged rim jets: Pour a 5-gallon bucket of water in W/C. If dumping water into bowl makes it flush fine, then the little rim jet holes are probably plugged, (assuming tank parts are functioning correctly). 

Remedy: (1) clean rim jets or (2) the preferred method: repl. W/C.


----------



## Richard Hilliard

RealLivePlumber said:


> And once the rim jets are cleared, which is a simple task, it's good for another 20 years.


Not true. you cannot possibly clear and clean the scale from inside the bowl, jet hole and rim. You may remove the buildup from the rim holes however you will not clean the rim itself. Any acid used will eat the porcelain.

You can buy them some time I will agree. I am not sure that is in the best interest of the client BUT again give the client the choice to make it is not our choice to make.This is the important part by the way.

Protech tell them not to let the yellow mellow. May want to test the water.


----------



## Widdershins

Richard Hilliard said:


> Any acid used will eat the porcelain.


 Muriatic Acid will not eat the porcelain.


----------



## 504Plumber

Widdershins said:


> Muriatic Acid will not eat the porcelain.


Forgive my ignorance, is muratic not used for removing grout? No matter what kind of acid, I'm a little against pouring it down any old plastic/brass/porcelain flush valve that a rubber flapper would seat on. 

I usually let the customer know, I can try to get the jets unclogged and it may flush better for a while, it is up to you, I can try and if it doesn't work well we can replace it. Win/win for us, if I give it a little try for 5 minutes and they see no improvement I replace it, if they don't want to replace it I try to upsell them on something else I see wrong or charge them for cleaning the jets anyway.


----------



## Redwood

504Plumber said:


> Forgive my ignorance, is muratic not used for removing grout? No matter what kind of acid, I'm a little against pouring it down any old plastic/brass/porcelain flush valve that a rubber flapper would seat on.


The acid comes in plastic bottles, it will not damage plastic...
There is a big difference between Grout and Porcelain...
Of course I may be wrong and we'll have to start installing toilet pans along with shower pans tomorrow.... :laughing:

One additional note on the poor toilet flush if they are using the blue glop bowl cleaner in the tank wet vac it out of there...


----------



## plbgbiz

Acid treatment for a scaled up toilet takes only minutes and can produce amazing results. If done properly, and along with a complete tank rebuild, will make the toilet every bit as good as when it was brand new. *In many instances, this is a far superior solution than installing a new low consumption toilet that cannot provide buoyancy of waste down the line.*

My preferred method is with a brass lift rod. It is stiffer than a coat hanger but the soft brass is still easy to bend. The acid we use is sold under the brand name Santeen. It is hydrochloric acid. It does not damage porcelain and will eliminate ALL scale build up in a toilet.

It is also very effective for pre-cleaning old buried copper prior to cutting for making a repair.

*DISCLAIMER: (since this is a public forum) These statements are intended as informational only and not as instruction or encouragement for anyone to follow. The process and chemicals described are very dangerous. Hydrochloric acid and the use thereof is involves risk and if not handled properly can cause serious bodily injury, permanent disability, or death. These activities should only be considered by Licensed Plumbing Professionals with the training, experience, skill, and liability insurance.*


----------



## Richard Hilliard

Total rebuild of a toilet tank plus the time cleaning the scale and without 100% guarantee that the scale will be all removed will run anywhere between 250-400 bucks depending on the toilet , some have stated several times a new toilet installed is 350-500 bucks. It does not make much sense to spend at the minimum 50% of the cost of a new toilet to repair and rebuild a 20 year old toilet. I could understand a toilet less than 5 years old, to put those kinds of dollars into rebuilding and repairing.

*Again it really does not matter what you do as long as the customer gets to make the decision on what is in their best interest when given all the right information.*


----------



## Tommy plumber

Richard Hilliard said:


> Total rebuild of a toilet tank plus the time cleaning the scale and without 100% guarantee that the scale will be all removed will run anywhere between 250-400 bucks depending on the toilet , some have stated several times a new toilet installed is 350-500 bucks. It does not make much sense to spend at the minimum 50% of the cost of a new toilet to repair and rebuild a 20 year old toilet. I could understand a toilet less than 5 years old, to put those kinds of dollars into rebuilding and repairing.
> 
> *Again it really does not matter what you do as long as the customer gets to make the decision on what is in their best interest when given all the right information.*


 




I had a call in which the W/C was a 1-pc canary yellow Kohler Rochelle, ( I think it was a Rochelle). Anyway, it matched her whole bathroom. The bathtub was yellow, the tiles, lav sink. She was adamant about repairing her toilet. I did as she pleased and re-built the 3.5 gpf W/C.

Her other bathroom was green, (W/C, tub, lav). Another bathroom was pink. She was an elderly lady whose husband had designed their home. He was now passed away and she didn't want a tacky new toilet. Her mansion, when it was made in the 1960's was very stylish but by modern standards was a little outdated. She loved her different colored bathrooms and I was happy to re-build the W/C for her. She lived in Manalapan, FL which is a ritzy town.


----------



## RealLivePlumber

If you got a 20 to 50 year old American Standard, and a long old o'berg or cast iron sewer , you best be keeping that 3.5 gal toilet.


----------



## HOMER

had a american standard lexington 1 pc in chocolate brown,color discontinued and matches tile and other fixtures.

the house keeper poured her mop bucket out in the toilet .
heavily calcified mop fibers cling to inside and bottom of toilet.

removed toilet and tank components.
put jim cap on toilet outlet.
placed on blocks
filled with muriatic acid(home depot).
covered with tarp,taped .
drained acid after 48 hours.
toilet came out like new.
completely removed the calcification and debris.
reinstalled ballcock,tank lever and flush valve.

major pain in the *ss.

but customer happy.

Ive only done this once.
I suppose I could have taken it somewhere to be chemically cleaned.
not easy to deal with the acid.
even though its heavily diluted,its still a MF to work with.


----------

