# Cabin rough in question.



## Johnny Canuck (Feb 24, 2015)

I got a call the other day for a quote to rough in a 32x32 cabin. Very basic - 1 toilet, lav and tub/shower, double kitchen sink, dishwasher, washer box in the basement and frost free hose bib. Water entrance is on the front corner (well pump) and building sewer exits to the septic tank on the opposite corner. 
I'm comfortable with doing the job but not sure about pricing it, mainly how long it would take to do. Most of my experience has been service work. 

Any thoughts and help are appreciated


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Hehe, don't know why my mind though 32 inches x 32 inches. Damn small cabin if that were the case. Depends on many factors, but I would say a day for pvc and pex in the ground. Maybe a day and a half if you run into issues. You doing this solo? Much hand digging?


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## Johnny Canuck (Feb 24, 2015)

@chonkie All the underground is done, so there's no digging. Well, pump and septic are all done and yeah I'm solo. I was thinking of pricing it at 2 days work just to be sure.


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Is this a topout or the finish trim? I'm used to calling the underground work the rough-in.


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## Johnny Canuck (Feb 24, 2015)

I always call the rough in everything running to but not including the fixtures. Under the floors, through the walls to stub outs etc. So is that what you call topout? 
Maybe its a local thing?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

In my opinion, {2} days is about {2} days too short. When you start doing the layout, then drilling the penetrations, you'll see how the time gets eaten up...and if you underestimate the time, then you'll be huffing and puffing and cussing and wishing you had bid more....but it'll be too late..........

I am in the middle of a doing a 2nd rough right now, and I'm at around {50} hours; and I still have to water pipe. Then, come back and set the fixtures.


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## Johnny Canuck (Feb 24, 2015)

Tommy plumber said:


> In my opinion, {2} days is about {2} days too short. When you start doing the layout, then drilling the penetrations, you'll see how the time gets eaten up...and if you underestimate the time, then you'll be huffing and puffing and cussing and wishing you had bid more....but it'll be too late..........
> 
> I am in the middle of a doing a 2nd rough right now, and I'm at around {50} hours; and I still have to water pipe. Then, come back and set the fixtures.


That's what I'm worried about. Wouldn't be a good start to the business.


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Johns_TPS said:


> I always call the rough in everything running to but not including the fixtures. Under the floors, through the walls to stub outs etc. So is that what you call topout?
> Maybe its a local thing?


Might be just us ... rough is ground work, topout is everything above the slab, then trim.


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## Johnny Canuck (Feb 24, 2015)

chonkie said:


> Might be just us ... rough is ground work, topout is everything above the slab, then trim.


Ok so then the rough in is done and I'm pricing the topout and then the trim. I've only ever heard underground, rough in and trim. Like I said maybe its a local thing.


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## Workhorseplmg (Apr 10, 2013)

I would figure at least 3 days on top out and a day on trimming. Why are you starting at top out, did the other plumber get fired? I would be Leary going in after someone else and would price it higher due to that.


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

A lot of things can add time, especially for one person to do it all ... strapping, nail plates, insulating, if there is a lot of overhead work to do. Open web trusses or solid joists?

It also depends on how long of days you work. Four days sounds like too long to me, assuming just based off an 8 hour day. Imho, 3 days should be more than enough time, especially on a small cabin.

Do you think you can get the pvc done in one day? The h2o done in one day? The little things on the last day?


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## Johnny Canuck (Feb 24, 2015)

Workhorseplmg said:


> I would figure at least 3 days on top out and a day on trimming. Why are you starting at top out, did the other plumber get fired? I would be Leary going in after someone else and would price it higher due to that.


I'm assuming that they have a well company setting up their pump and a septic installer ran as far as the foundation.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Johns_TPS said:


> I'm assuming that they have a well company setting up their pump and a septic installer ran as far as the foundation.












I moved a few drains around in a slab-on-grade home. The floor was saw-cut and I moved the plastic. When I went to put a test on the U/G, it wouldn't hold water. I basically had to plug each area that I altered since I couldn't get the whole house to hold. I spent about {6} hours running around doing just a test for my U/G inspection. I theorize that there are {2} septic tanks; this particular home had an addition put on in years past. Never assume. I passed my U/G inspection, which was today in fact. Next, will be the 2nd rough, then of course the final inspection.

Had someone asked me how long to put a test on the plastic, which is basically a 5' head, a test ball in the 3" outside c.o. and filling it up with water, I would have answered 'about two hours or so.' But it was more like {8} in total just to get the test put on. The GC demo'd a wall, then cut a 2" stack which was the old kitchen, and slinged some cement in the 2" then covered it over. I of course had to re-expose it, cut it back, cap it, then proceed to fill the sanitary for the test. Lots of running around.

Unforeseen problems like this can make the hour tally add up.


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## paultheplumber1 (May 1, 2014)

I'd estimate probably 4 days at least. I always figure a full day for test, nail plates, vent terminal through the roof (I do my own flange). But I also never do slabs all my jobs are basement/ crawl space.


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## Johnny Canuck (Feb 24, 2015)

I thought I read in here where some price the whole job by a certain number of dollars per fixture. Is that a simpler way or did I just read it wrong?


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## Green Country (Mar 6, 2009)

Is the cabin still under construction?


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## Johnny Canuck (Feb 24, 2015)

Green Country said:


> Is the cabin still under construction?


Just the foundation right now. He figures it'll be ready for me to start in 4 or 5 weeks.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Green Country said:


> Is the cabin still under construction?


So I understand correctly, this is not yet built. Is it a one-story cabin, meaning everything is on the same floor? You did say it was basement, right? Not a crawl space? If everything is pretty basic, meaning standard lavs with deck mount faucets ( no wall mounted specialty stuff ), no custom tile shower with vertical spa, I'd figure 32 hours at your hourly rate for rough/top-out & trim. Figure material cost & add yer mark-up & there you have it. If ya do think you'll use an extra pair of hands, then add like $25 to yer per hour rate to cover that expense.a single story on basement should be a walk in the park for ya! Oh, just thought of this, if they have gas fixtures make sure you account for that. Good luck brother!


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Johns_TPS said:


> Ok so then the rough in is done and I'm pricing the topout and then the trim. I've only ever heard underground, rough in and trim. Like I said maybe its a local thing.


It must be regional. I have also, until joining here, only heard of slab-rough, rough-in & final. That's ok though. I learned a new fitting term today: "goesinta".


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> I moved a few drains around in a slab-on-grade home. The floor was saw-cut and I moved the plastic. When I went to put a test on the U/G, it wouldn't hold water. I basically had to plug each area that I altered since I couldn't get the whole house to hold. I spent about {6} hours running around doing just a test for my U/G inspection. I theorize that there are {2} septic tanks; this particular home had an addition put on in years past. Never assume. I passed my U/G inspection, which was today in fact. Next, will be the 2nd rough, then of course the final inspection.
> 
> Had someone asked me how long to put a test on the plastic, which is basically a 5' head, a test ball in the 3" outside c.o. and filling it up with water, I would have answered 'about two hours or so.' But it was more like {8} in total just to get the test put on. The GC demo'd a wall, then cut a 2" stack which was the old kitchen, and slinged some cement in the 2" then covered it over. I of course had to re-expose it, cut it back, cap it, then proceed to fill the sanitary for the test. Lots of running around.
> 
> Unforeseen problems like this can make the hour tally add up.


You guys only have to put 5' head on yer dwv? We have to do 10', or 5# air for 15 minutes ( NEVER on plastic though ). ;-) ;-)


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## Johnny Canuck (Feb 24, 2015)

One of the joys/curses of Newfoundland is that Plumbing isn't a regulated trade meaning any schmo can start a company, so the are new companies opening everyday trying to get in on the building boom. That's why I went in the service direction and of course my first call is new construction. Just found out today that because of where this cabin is situated I don't need a permit or inspection. I could run the whole thing in garden hose and duct tape.


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## gardenparty (Jan 29, 2015)

My Ex husband and I built a house in Codroy Valley in Newfoundland on 2 acres on the Grand Codroy River. No permits or inspections for anything, not even the well or septic. It was unbelievable. My current husband and I are building a house in Alberta and it took 6 months just to get all the permits in place and don't even get me going on the inspection.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

mccmech said:


> You guys only have to put 5' head on yer dwv? We have to do 10', or 5# air for 15 minutes ( NEVER on plastic though ). ;-) ;-)
















Our code used to state a 10' head. But no plumber in the field ever did it, furthermore, no inspectors ever enforced it. So they amended the code a while back to state a 5' head.

I passed a 1st rough inspection the other day with the standpipe in the laundry filled to fixture opening. The laundry box is about 44" to the center of the box. The {2} other stacks in the home were taller. Do you know that the inspector never noticed that the {3} water levels were not equal?......:laughing:....I had {3} different tests since I only had to test the work that I altered. Long story short, I went and attempted to fill the laundry, but it never filled up. So under the slab, I capped off a line then filled my laundry. Then I capped the other {2} drain lines and filled each one.

I think that there are {2} septic tanks {the home had an addition added years back which included another bathroom}. That is why when I put a test ball in the only 3" c.o. that I found, nothing filled up. The water must be going into another septic tank. Either that or a drywell...who knows. Sorry for the long-winded post.


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## Johnny Canuck (Feb 24, 2015)

Got the quote done - thanks to everyone for your help and advice. A lot of stuff I'd never have thought of. Now I wait...


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## paultheplumber1 (May 1, 2014)

For rough estimates based solely on prints I sometimes do a by the fixture estimate. For spec homes I usually do $900 per fixture. That does not include fixtures. And most of the time I've done this same house a few times for the same builder. Custom built homes I get a little more and include a seperate fixture allowance.


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## Johnny Canuck (Feb 24, 2015)

paultheplumber1 said:


> For rough estimates based solely on prints I sometimes do a by the fixture estimate. For spec homes I usually do $900 per fixture. That does not include fixtures. And most of the time I've done this same house a few times for the same builder. Custom built homes I get a little more and include a seperate fixture allowance.


I made a take off list, marked it up and figured high on the labour then gave them the total. It worked out to between $900 & $1000 per fixture so I'm feeling better about it now. Whether they do or not may be another story but I'm not going to work for free.


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

If it's cpvc/pex and PVC waste I normally start at 750 a fixture(roughin only) copper 850-900. I'm also almost always factoring those prices on a 10-20+ fixture job. By you only having a bathroom group, kitchen, laundry, water heater you could maybe go up a little. If your working by yourself you can make money at 750 a fixture. Just make sure you count ALL of them. Water heater, well tank, sump pump, radon, fireplace, grill are some that can get skipped over. Also for the hose bib you should be around $500. Assuming it's not a pin in the ass to run. Good luck and go make some $$


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## Johnny Canuck (Feb 24, 2015)

Michaelcookplum said:


> If it's cpvc/pex and PVC waste I normally start at 750 a fixture(roughin only) copper 850-900. I'm also almost always factoring those prices on a 10-20+ fixture job. By you only having a bathroom group, kitchen, laundry, water heater you could maybe go up a little. If your working by yourself you can make money at 750 a fixture. Just make sure you count ALL of them. Water heater, well tank, sump pump, radon, fireplace, grill are some that can get skipped over. Also for the hose bib you should be around $500. Assuming it's not a pin in the ass to run. Good luck and go make some $$


Even if I don't get it it's still a learning experience.


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## Johnny Canuck (Feb 24, 2015)

I didn't get it. I was $3000 higher than the highest bid. I new I was high but not by that much. The next highest would have been about $660/fixture which seems low to me. A little discouraging but still a learning experience. He also didn't like that I gave a total price rather than a parts and labour breakdown which I don't understand - is he going to go with one guys parts and the other guys labour?


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

He is trying to cross match your parts prices to see how much of a markup 
you have over the big box stores,
and to get a hourly price to compare against other plumbers then he can start nickel and diming you on prices :whistling2:


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## Johnny Canuck (Feb 24, 2015)

JERRYMAC said:


> He is trying to cross match your parts prices to see how much of a markup
> you have over the big box stores,
> and to get a hourly price to compare against other plumbers then he can start nickel and diming you on prices :whistling2:


That's what I figured. I could have really used the money but don't not enough to be nickel and died to death.


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## Workhorseplmg (Apr 10, 2013)

I never give a breakdown because I'm not supplying either labor or parts, I'm supplying both or none.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Johns_TPS said:


> I didn't get it. I was $3000 higher than the highest bid. I new I was high but not by that much. The next highest would have been about $660/fixture which seems low to me. A little discouraging but still a learning experience. He also didn't like that I gave a total price rather than a parts and labour breakdown which I don't understand - is he going to go with one guys parts and the other guys labour?



Don't feel bad I go in at about 1000 per fixture. Anything less it's not worth your time. Think of it this way if you get the job you make money. If you miss the job you don't loose money. If you figured it to make money then the other guy either broke even or lost his shirt. I had a guy under bid me by 40000 on a 90000 dollar job I didn't lose anything but he did and it was comical to watch as he got dropped off the bidder list on the next job.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Johns_TPS said:


> I got a call the other day for a quote to rough in a 32x32 cabin
> <snip>
> 
> CABIN ... Not log cabin I hope ... That is a totally different animal!


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

In my area, the $1,000.00 per fixture is fine as long as you can get it done (all framing ready, a day & a half at the job yourself, foundation backfilled). Two bath complete, full basement top out in under 32 man hours with gas pipe.

Been a few years now, But to top out with the DWV I could get a two bath home, kit., wash, vent into basement & flashed in under 8 hours, provided the material was there and tubs in place. I did that consistently. The guy I worked with would top out a ranch with copper in about 4 hours, then move into the basement and for the most part get it done in a day for the same house. All neat, scrapped out, list made, air tested.

Of course the tub drops, water drops, washer box are already prefabbed at the shop. We had set heights for our drilling & DWV all memorized.


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