# Kitchen in a Church...



## Ishmael (Dec 9, 2009)

I was recently asked to provide an estimate to relocate a kitchen and two bathrooms in a church. Everything in the existing kitchen is standard residential grade stuff, but the new kitchen will be all tricked out with commercial equipment. Existing plumbing is cast iron DWV and copper water distribution. I'm going to talk to the plumbing inspector when his office opens tuesday morning, but I'm trying to get started putting an estimate together.

The thing I'm having a problem with is the intended use of the kitchen - (and maybe it doesn't even matter). The church will obviously prepare and serve "community suppers" from this kitchen and I suspect, though I haven't been told, that it may also rent the kitchen to people who have small food-related businesses. Maybe the fact that that they'll prepare these community suppers is enough to qualify it as a commercial kitchen in the eyes of the state (Massachusetts)? But, as such, that brings forth all sorts of other requirements - three bay sink with grease trap, separate hand sink, water temp considerations etc etc.

99% of my experience is residential, so I'm struggling to get past these initial thoughts. Anybody have any thoughts/ideas on this - especially if you're in MA?

Just thought I'd throw it out there - now I'm going to blow the dust off the code book and start looking.

Thanks!


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Since it is not in a family residence intended for private use, it will most likely be classified as a commercial kitchen. The commercial classification has to do with the usage, not whether or not they made money doing it.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Verify the requirements, like you are doing, and bid it a little higher than you normally would. There is going to be a learning curve, especially with a church.

You most like will have some " Committee " involvement, which is a PITA.


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## Ishmael (Dec 9, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> Since it is not in a family residence intended for private use, it will most likely be classified as a commercial kitchen. The commercial classification has to do with the usage, not whether or not they made money doing it.


That was my thought, too. Even if they have no intention of renting the kitchen to commercial interests, the fact that they're serving the public will require all the considerations of a commercial kitchen.


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## Ishmael (Dec 9, 2009)

As I skim through the MA Plumbing Code, it's becoming obvious that it must be treated as a commercial kitchen (meaning the existing kitchen is woefully inadequate). 

Now my only question for the plumbing inspector is the following: Our state code was last updated in 2008, but I'm pretty sure there have been updates recently to the requirements for grease traps and grease interceptors. The 3-bay sink has to drain though a grease trap (defined as "a passive interceptor whose flow rate is 50gpm or less"), but I'm pretty sure the entire kitchen (now) must also flow through a grease interceptor (flow rate greater than 50gpm) before entering the town sewer? Maybe I can find that on the state web site...

Meh...at least the main question has been answered and I can get started on the estimate.

Thanks!


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Ask them to provide you a copy of the architects plans. Scrutinize them carefully. Direct questions to the AHJ.

You don't wanna play architect on this one.


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## Ishmael (Dec 9, 2009)

Found it in the code book: The floor drain and dishwasher must also flow through a grease trap/interceptor. So...can I eliminate the grease trap at the 3-bay sink and let the whole kitchen drain through the larger interceptor?

I read on...


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Ishmael said:


> Found it in the code book: The floor drain and dishwasher must also flow through a grease trap/interceptor. So...can I eliminate the grease trap at the 3-bay sink and let the whole kitchen drain through the larger interceptor?
> 
> I read on...


I can't speak for MA. but most places it would just be 1 common interceptor outside the bldg.


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## Ishmael (Dec 9, 2009)

SlickRick said:


> I can't speak for MA. but most places it would just be 1 common interceptor outside the bldg.


It makes sense. But I can't (or haven't yet) found the answer to that either in the book or on the web site. That may have to wait until I talk to the inspector.

*Edited to add:* And if I do that (one large interceptor outside the building), I'd have to run a 4" cast iron vent back up through the building (a "chamber vent")


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## Ishmael (Dec 9, 2009)

Ugh...now I have questions on the bathrooms. The new plans call for 2 toilets in the ladies' room (the only ladies' room in the building). But the capacity of the sanctuary is 300; if half are women (150), and the code calls for 1 toilet for every 50 women...

And then...are there supposed to be adequate facilities for a *combined* total capacity of the sanctuary PLUS the "fellowship hall", or just the larger?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Don't forget the ADA requirements. Like Real Live Plumber posted, get all the prints from the architecht and study every detail on the prints including the "notes" part written on the print. Ideally you want 'existing' and 're-model' prints. When fixtures are added, moved and/or deleted the scope of work increases.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

U ask a lot of good questions. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter what any of us say. Only the opinion of the AHJ matters. Good luck.


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## BigGuy (Jul 6, 2011)

If I may, I have some questions to add on if possible. I read about the Grease traps for the three sink set-up.

But would it be a bad thing to do a little "overkill"? Such as adding two grease traps? such as one for the sink, and then one for the main drain to the sewers? 
And how would the bathroom situation workout? 

I live in WA, and attend Job Corps in WA. But I still would love to know how things workout and what the Plumbing Inspector says.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

BigGuy said:


> If I may, I have some questions to add on if possible. I read about the Grease traps for the three sink set-up.
> 
> But would it be a bad thing to do a little "overkill"? Such as adding two grease traps? such as one for the sink, and then one for the main drain to the sewers?
> And how would the bathroom situation workout?
> ...


First listen don't ask 
How much grease is in your bathroom anyways think why put two if you've removed the grease with one


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

There are laws and code and you gotta follow what you gotta follow


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

BigGuy said:


> If I may, I have some questions to add on if possible. I read about the Grease traps for the three sink set-up.
> 
> But would it be a bad thing to do a little "overkill"? Such as adding two grease traps? such as one for the sink, and then one for the main drain to the sewers?
> And how would the bathroom situation workout?
> ...


If you ever clean a full grease trap...you'll understand why you don't want to do it twice....


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

BigGuy said:


> Currently in:Facilities Maintenance Training Program. (Basic Carpentry, Electrical, Plumbing, and HVAC) Later on: Roto-Rooter Advanced Training for Pre-Apprenticeship as a Plumber.


What the heck is that.... :laughing:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

BigGuy said:


> .....But would it be a bad thing to do a little "overkill"? Such as adding two grease traps? such as one for the sink, and then one for the main drain to the sewers?
> And how would the bathroom situation workout?


Geez, can't the kid get a straight answer?

The reason for not having overkill on grease traps starts with cost. They are very expensive to buy, install, and maintain. The plumber wants to put in the best system but he also has to remain competitive on price. 

Grease traps are never to be installed on solid waste lines. Poo won't pass through the baffles. Bathrooms and kitchen drains have to be seperate until downstream of the grease interceptor.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> Geez, can't the kid get a straight answer?
> 
> The reason for not having overkill on grease traps starts with cost. They are very expensive to buy, install, and maintain. The plumber wants to put in the best system but he also has to remain competitive on price.


 You've never been to Bellevue, Washington and seen the Volkers (former Plumbing Inspector who recently retired) monument to interceptor overkill.

He ordered that the largest commercial interceptor known to the free world be installed in a large commercial building with independent lines run to it from all of the retail spaces. Problem was, most of the lines plugged up in no time due to very long horizontal pipe runs. 

Most of the retail spaces were forced to retrofit point of use interceptors long after their spaces were finished at their own expense -- And the kicker? They still had to pipe the discharge from their point of use interceptors to Volkers Monument to Overkill.

Most of the West Side Plumbers I know, including myself, wouldn't touch a job out in Bellevue if an interceptor was required while Volkers was still on the prowl.


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