# BBB Accreditation



## ekim2211 (Oct 7, 2009)

It's time to renew my BBB Accreditation and I'm having second thoughts. I think the BBB is very old fashioned and not many customers really care about it. And it's expensive. What's everyone else think?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

They are a for-profit enterprise that derives income generated from fear and extortion.


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> They are a for-profit enterprise that derives income generated from fear and extortion.


Sounds like my Ex wife inch:


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## ekim2211 (Oct 7, 2009)

Not sure what you mean; overall I think the BBB mission is positive, but the world has changed alot.


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## 130 PLUMBER (Oct 22, 2009)




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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

ekim2211 said:


> Not sure what you mean; overall I think the BBB mission is positive, but the world has changed alot.


Yeah, it sounds good on paper but in the real world they can be pretty sinister. There have been documented cases of BBB ratings changing based on whether or not you pay for membership.

My experience is that their advocacy is horribly biased. They are a lot of things but I would never call them positive or even objective.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Where is AprilMayb? :laughing:


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

My company is not even on their site. Maybe its because I have not had a complaint to them yet. At least I don't have an F.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> They are a for-profit enterprise that derives income generated from fear and extortion.


I agree, however, people know about them and use them and here are 3 reasons I'm re-thinking my membership this year.

1. They are re-branding themselves and skyrocketing their advertising. Right now, if you type in plumbing in Google in your city, it is very likely that you will see the BBB website at the top of the organic listings and the companies that are members are going to come up first when a consumer clicks on their site. This spells FREE SEO DOLLARS FOR ME. What this means is they are spending all the money to get themselves ranked so high, why not just piggyback on what they are doing?

2. It is CHEAP compared to Angie's List and IMO they work harder for their clients than Angie's List ever thought of doing. When you are a member of the BBB, they have a problem resolution team that works with you and they require people to go through their resolution process before they can tarnish your rating. This gives everyone a chance to cool off and is equally fair to consumer and business. I don't know any of you advertise with Angie's List, but I assure you they could care less about my side of the story. Any "member" (which doesn't mean much in my book since they are practically giving their memberships away now) can get on their site and say anything they want, true or not, they are in the consumers corner even if the consumer is wrong.

3. It's cheap. In the grand scheme of things, that's a lot of professional web exposure for such a small amount of money. I can join the BBB for a year for the price it costs me to be on Angie's List for 2 weeks.

Any of these sites are kinda like going hunting. You can just hide in the woods and not get noticed by not becoming a member, but if you stick your neck out, someone is likely to shoot at you. You've got to weigh risk vs. reward. No leads or a bad review once in awhile??


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

aprilmayb said:


> Any of these sites are kinda like going hunting. You can just hide in the woods and not get noticed by not becoming a member, but if you stick your neck out, someone is likely to shoot at you. You've got to weigh risk vs. reward. No leads or a bad review once in awhile??


This is kind of a cheesy metaphor, but johntheplumber has forbidden me from using any more sports metaphors because "they are terrible". So I'm branching out with hunting and Nascar and stuff. I'm sure I'll find my groove. :thumbup:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

*I'm sitting on my couch eatin' cheetos*

I'm top listed but do not have their membership. I did at one time, and I ask them simply; "I have numerous companies, will one membership cover all of them?" which normally gets a callback that never comes. :laughing:

I have an A+ rating so that is what matters. Can't see it being harmful and paying money isn't the answer at this point. What matters is how I compare to my competition, if you call it that. :yes:


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## bobtheplummer (Sep 29, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> They are a for-profit enterprise that derives income generated from fear and extortion.


Well Said...


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

We are no longer accredited with the BBB and we still maintain our A+ rating.


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

I haven't had a problem with their services and have received many service calls from people finding me thru their advertising. Well worth it IMO. My ROI was paid for after the first call. I seen my ad on T.V and I had no clue it was out, that was a nice surprise. 
I was not held against my will to sign up and if I choose not sign up again their rating from A-Z will not affect my reputation any!


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

I quit having anything to do with the BBB. After they tried to get me to buy a A+ rating and get the accreditation. For the low low price of 1800.00 it would be bumped to the top..Nope i dont buy good reviews, or a A+ rating from them. I dont really care what my ration is with them, they are nothing to me. I also like how they get people to think they can shut down a business. PFFFFT! Aint got no time for that!!


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

aprilmayb said:


> I agree, however, people know about them and use them and here are 3 reasons I'm re-thinking my membership this year.
> 
> 1. They are re-branding themselves and skyrocketing their advertising. Right now, if you type in plumbing in Google in your city, it is very likely that you will see the BBB website at the top of the organic listings and the companies that are members are going to come up first when a consumer clicks on their site. This spells FREE SEO DOLLARS FOR ME. What this means is they are spending all the money to get themselves ranked so high, why not just piggyback on what they are doing?
> 
> ...


 






Are you sure that Angie's List charges you? I thought the whole idea was that contractors* can't* pay to get a 'good rating'.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

Tommy plumber said:


> Are you sure that Angie's List charges you? I thought the whole idea was that contractors can't pay to get a 'good rating'.


I'm telling you, Angie's List is someone that took the structure of the BBB and turned it into a cash cow. You can't pay to be on Angie's List, a customer has to recommend you, but if you want to be at the top of the list, you have to give them your first born, several vital organs and a possible appendage. It's exactly the same as the BBB except they charge consumers to be members and companies to stay at the top of the list. Our monthly advertising expense is the same as our mortgage payment and they double our price every year. Which is another reason I'm re-joining the BBB, I need more diversity in our advertising because I'm not sure I'm going to be able to afford them next year.


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

The only question in my mind is...is the ROI worth it? If the answer is no, then it's simple, drop them. If yes, well keep them.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

Relic said:


> The only question in my mind is...is the ROI worth it? If the answer is no, then it's simple, drop them. If yes, well keep them.


Exactly, and that's what we have to re-evaluate every year. That's why it's vital to track your advertising leads. Every time you talk to a customer you have to ask how they heard about you so that you know for sure what is your ROI.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

aprilmayb said:


> I'm telling you, Angie's List is someone that took the structure of the BBB and turned it into a cash cow. You can't pay to be on Angie's List, a customer has to recommend you, but if you want to be at the top of the list, you have to give them your first born, several vital organs and a possible appendage. It's exactly the same as the BBB except they charge consumers to be members and companies to stay at the top of the list. Our monthly advertising expense is the same as our mortgage payment and they double our price every year. Which is another reason I'm re-joining the BBB, I need more diversity in our advertising because I'm not sure I'm going to be able to afford them next year.


 







Thanks for the info. Never inquired about all their terms, etc, etc. Once a customer of mine asked me if I wanted her to send in a recommendation to Angie's List on my behalf. But I wasn't interested. 

Because of this thread, I just sent an e-mail to the BBB in my area. I'll see what their price is to give me an 'A' listing. I know it's a matter of pay-to-play, but alot of people will probably hire a company from the BBB instead of going to a Yellow Pages ad. If the BBB wants some ridiculous amount of my dough, I won't sign with them.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

aprilmayb said:


> I'm telling you, Angie's List is someone that took the structure of the BBB and turned it into a cash cow. You can't pay to be on Angie's List, a customer has to recommend you, but if you want to be at the top of the list, you have to give them your first born, several vital organs and a possible appendage. It's exactly the same as the BBB except they charge consumers to be members and companies to stay at the top of the list. Our monthly advertising expense is the same as our mortgage payment and they double our price every year. Which is another reason I'm re-joining the BBB, I need more diversity in our advertising because I'm not sure I'm going to be able to afford them next year.


 Agree totally . They hit me up EVERYDAY to pay $$ to be at the top of their list .

I have the Super something award 2-3 years in a row and have never paid a dime. How does me giving Angie $$ make me a better plumber ??


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

A big part of it has to do with your market. We are in the most competitive market in the US. There are literally hundreds of plumbers on AL in our area, but if you are in a smaller market you could potentially be seen without paying to be at the top of the list.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

We where a member (accredited) of the BBB since 1985. We were only paying $400.00 a year to be a member, then $200 a year to be listed on their online directory, and ability to use their logo and link on our web page.

This year we did not have the funds at the time it was due so we are no longer a member, but we did call to make arrangements to get back with them. We have gotten many jobs from the BBB, and cause we have an A+ rating.

And about their rating system, YOU CAN NOT BUY YOUR WAY TO A BETTER RATING!!!! They have a set of factors they use to get to the rating. If you go to this link http://www.bbb.org/chicago/business...d-plumbing-service-in-lombard-il-7479#bbblogo and you will see this quoted under our rating. 



> *BBB Accreditation*
> 
> A-Archer Sewer & Plumbing Service, Inc. is not BBB Accredited.
> Businesses are under no obligation to seek BBB accreditation, and some businesses are not accredited because they have not sought BBB accreditation.
> To be accredited by BBB, a business must apply for accreditation and BBB must determine that the business meets BBB accreditation standards, which include a commitment to make a good faith effort to resolve any consumer complaints. BBB Accredited Businesses must pay a fee for accreditation review/monitoring and for support of BBB services to the public.


and below that 


> *Reason for Rating*
> 
> BBB rating is based on 16 factors. Get the details about the factors considered.
> 
> ...


As you can see they use the length of time we been in business, no complaints, and enough background information ie. a real address, landline phone numbers, and much more. That 20/20 investigation is full of crap.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

aprilmayb said:


> I'm telling you, Angie's List is someone that  hot:thumbup:


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

Tommy plumber said:


> Thanks for the info. Never inquired about all their terms, etc, etc. Once a customer of mine asked me if I wanted her to send in a recommendation to Angie's List on my behalf. But I wasn't interested.
> 
> Because of this thread, I just sent an e-mail to the BBB in my area. I'll see what their price is to give me an 'A' listing. I know it's a matter of pay-to-play, but alot of people will probably hire a company from the BBB instead of going to a Yellow Pages ad. If the BBB wants some ridiculous amount of my dough, I won't sign with them.


It's not pay to play. You can have a free listing. Everyone who hasn't been in business at least 3 years (I think it's 3) starts with an A-. After 3 years you are eligible for an A+ if you don't have a lots of complaints or if you've resolved those complaints.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

PS, I have no vested interest in either the the BBB or Angie's List. Just passing on the info I've learned.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

aprilmayb said:


> It's not pay to play. You can have a free listing. Everyone who hasn't been in business at least 3 years (I think it's 3) starts with an A-. After 3 years you are eligible for an A+ if you don't have a lots of complaints or if you've resolved those complaints.


I am still waiting for something. I am not listed. Maybe I will call them tomorrow to bust their chops.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

*OVERVIEW OF BBB GRADE*

BBB letter grades represent the BBB's opinion of the business. The BBB grade is based on BBB file information about the business. In some cases, a business' grade may be lowered if the BBB does not have sufficient information about the business despite BBB requests for that information from the business.
BBB assigns letter grades from A+ (highest) to F (lowest). In some cases, BBB will not grade the business (indicated by an NR, or "No Rating”) for reasons that include insufficient information about a business or ongoing review/update of the business' file.
BBB Business Reviews generally explain the most significant factors that raised or lowered a business' grade.
BBB grades are not a guarantee of a business' reliability or performance, and BBB recommends that consumers consider a business' grade in addition to all other available information about the business.
*GRADING ELEMENTS*


BBB grades are based on information in BBB files with respect to the following factors:
*Business' complaint history with BBB.*


The BBB grade takes into account the following information with respect to closed complaints that relate to a business' marketplace activities:
Number of complaints filed with BBB against the business
If complaints have been filed, whether BBB considers them to be of a serious nature
If complaints have been filed, whether the business has appropriately responded to them in BBB's opinion
If complaints have been filed, whether the business resolved the complaints in a timely manner to the customer's satisfaction
If complaints have been filed, whether BBB's opinion is that business made a good faith effort to resolve complaints if the customer was not satisfied with the resolution
If complaints have been filed, whether BBB's opinion is that business has failed to resolve the underlying cause(s) of a pattern of complaints.
BBB analysis of a business' complaint history generally takes into account the business' size if BBB has reliable information from the business to establish its size. If BBB cannot reliably determine business size, it will consider business to fall within BBB's smallest size category.
*Type of business.*


A business' BBB grade is lowered if, in BBB's opinion, the business falls within either of the following two categories:
Types of business that, in BBB experience, are believed to operate in violation of the law or materially misrepresent their products/services. Businesses that fall within this category will always get an F grade.
Types of business that, in BBB experience, are likely to generate marketplace concerns or a high level of customer dissatisfaction because of the inherent nature of the products/services offered. Businesses that fall within this category can get no higher than a C grade.

*Time in business.*

A business' BBB grade is based in part on the length of time the business has been operating. Time in business is most frequently determined from information provided by the business; while BBB expects businesses to provide accurate information, BBB will verify information if BBB has reason to believe provided information is not accurate. If the business has been asked for time in business information but does not provide it to BBB, BBB will consider business to have started at the time BBB opened its file on the business unless BBB file indicates an earlier time.
*Background information on business in BBB files.*


A business' BBB grade is lowered if:
BBB does not have basic background information on the business. BBB routinely requests background information on businesses. While businesses are under no legal obligation to provide BBB with information, the failure of a business to provide background information may lead to a lowered grade.
BBB does not have a clear understanding of the business and its practices. This includes situations where BBB has conflicting information about the business and the business is not able to resolve the conflict to BBB's satisfaction.

*Failure to honor commitments to BBB.*


A business' BBB grade is lowered if:
Business does not honor its commitments to BBB, including commitments to abide by mediation settlement or arbitration award.
BBB revoked the business' BBB accreditation due to business' failure to comply with its commitment to follow BBB accreditation standards.

*Licensing and government actions known to BBB.*


A business' BBB grade is lowered when BBB has knowledge of the following:
Failure of the business to have required competency licensing (i.e., licensing that requires a competency assessment or can be taken away based on misconduct by business).
Government actions against the business that relate to its marketplace activities and, in BBB's opinion, raise questions about the business' ethics or its reliability in providing products/services.
BBB routinely checks required competency licensing and government actions before a business is accredited by BBB. BBB does not routinely check required competency licensing and government actions for businesses that do not seek BBB accreditation, although in some cases BBB learns of these matters through its marketplace research.
*Advertising issues known to BBB.*


A business' BBB grade is lowered when the business does not, in BBB's opinion, appropriately respond to BBB advertising challenges that relate to:
Misuse of the BBB name or BBB marks; or
Potential advertising issues identified by BBB.
BBB advertising challenges are made at BBB's discretion when it receives complaints from consumers about advertising or when BBB identifies questionable advertising through its monitoring of local media.
*GRADING POINTS*

This chart shows the maximum number of points that can be earned or deducted in the BBB grading system. Please note there are some categories in which businesses can only lose points, and for those categories a "0” is indicated as the maximum number of points that can be awarded.
ElementRange of points that can be earned or deducted (maximum to minimum)
1. Type of Business 0 to -41
2. Time in Business 8 to -10
3. Competency Licensing 0 or -41
4. Complaint Volume 20 to 2
5. Unanswered Complaints 20 to -21
6. Unresolved Complaints 10 to 1
7. Serious Complaints 15 to 0
8. Complaint Analysis 8 to -12
9. Complaint Resolution Delayed 0 or -5
10. Failure to Address Complaint Pattern 0 or -5
11. Government Action 0 to -30
12. Advertising Review 0 to -41
13. Background Information 5 or 0
14. Clear understanding of business 0 or -5
15. Mediation/arbitration 0 to -41
16. Revocation 0 or -10


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

I was talking about Angie List


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

Cal said:


> I was talking about Angie List


I knew you were, I was just saying, no matter how many SSA's we won, if we weren't at the top of the list (in DFW) we'd never get noticed. Other cities might not be that way if they don't have as much competition.


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

SewerRatz said:


> OVERVIEW OF BBB GRADE
> 
> BBB letter grades represent the BBB's opinion of the business. The BBB grade is based on BBB file information about the business. In some cases, a business' grade may be lowered if the BBB does not have sufficient information about the business despite BBB requests for that information from the business.
> BBB assigns letter grades from A+ (highest) to F (lowest). In some cases, BBB will not grade the business (indicated by an NR, or "No Rating&#148 for reasons that include insufficient information about a business or ongoing review/update of the business' file.
> ...


Wow this is really long.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> ....That 20/20 investigation is full of crap.


My personal experience indicates the 20/20 story has substance.

When our bath remodel business was in its eighth year, we had already been using direct mail, television ads, home shows booths, state fair booths, radio spots, and had a full showroom in the same location for the eight years. I already had a less than favorable opinion of the BBB from their sales tactics in trying to coerce us into being members for our plumbing company years before so we made it a practice to ignore them and all customer comments about them.

Until...

We discovered that although there were no complaints filed, we had a B+ rating. On the other hand, a local competitor that had only been in business for a little over four years (with a long string of "resolved" complaints) had an A+ rating.

I called to get an explanation and was told the reason is because, "we have never heard much about you so since we don't have any information on your company we could not in good conscience give our highest rating. However, if you fill out the forms for your application and let us get you set up as a member, we could probably get that information in the system right away." Because I confirmed that I had already lost a couple of large jobs because of the BBB report, I caved and paid the protection money to Guido that afternoon. Before 5pm the website displayed our A+ rating and it remains to this day.

I don't care how intricate and objective the BBB formula is advertised to be, that does not mean they use it.

I am glad your experience was not like mine. Apparently not all BBB offices are created equal.


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## damnplumber (Jan 22, 2012)

*I had my reservations too*

I've been a BBB member for many many years and just the sticker on my van and logo on my adds pays for itself. I find it unfortunate that you might have to pay for a high grade. That's mafia insurance! But they got me and I'm still willing to pay. But I have never been on Angies list...maybe a thread stsrter?


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> My personal experience indicates the 20/20 story has substance.
> 
> When our bath remodel business was in its eighth year, we had already been using direct mail, television ads, home shows booths, state fair booths, radio spots, and had a full showroom in the same location for the eight years. I already had a less than favorable opinion of the BBB from their sales tactics in trying to coerce us into being members for our plumbing company years before so we made it a practice to ignore them and all customer comments about them.
> 
> ...


Any business listed on the BBB site with a rating can claim the listing. Once you verify you are part of the company (owner or authorized to submit information) you can give them the information they were lacking. Like owners or officers names, if the company is a corpration, sole ownership or an llc, what type of work you do, and some contact numbers and emails, they will update your information and grade. All without becoming a member.

I know many contractors that are not members that have an A+ rating. Also your grade will jot go down if you resolve a complaint in a timely maner.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

aprilmayb said:


> 1. They are re-branding themselves and skyrocketing their advertising.


Negative Nellie here - They are re-branding themselves and skyrocketing their advertising because their brand is tarnished. :yes: As for getting into the review business, I think they are too little too late. Yellow pages were slow to jump into the internet . . . they will never be what they were. IMO, BBB is in the same boat.



> Right now, if you type in plumbing in Google in your city, it is very likely that you will see the BBB website at the top of the organic listings


:no: 

They don't even show up on the first page. I come up before they do. :yes:



> and the companies that are members are going to come up first when a consumer clicks on their site. This spells FREE SEO DOLLARS FOR ME.


Are you sure you understand how SEO really works? Being listed on their site gives you one link, albeit a good link. 



> What this means is they are spending all the money to get themselves ranked so high, why not just piggyback on what they are doing?


If a consumer is looking for a plumber in my city, I want my site to come up and I want the potential customer to connect with our message. If they visit my site, I have a captive audience. If they like what they see, no need to click on those other pesky links. 

I cannot think of one good reason for why would I want a site that also list my competitors to come up above me? Sorry, not paying the BBB to compete with me in internet presence.



> 2. It is CHEAP compared to Angie's List and IMO they work harder for their clients than Angie's List ever thought of doing. When you are a member of the BBB, they have a problem resolution team that works with you and they require people to go through their resolution process before they can tarnish your rating. This gives everyone a chance to cool off and is equally fair to consumer and business.


I have personal, as well as professional experience with the BBB, and in both cases, I give them an "F."

to be continued . . .


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

Phat Cat said:


> Negative Nellie here - They are re-branding themselves and skyrocketing their advertising because their brand is tarnished. :yes: As for getting into the review business, I think they are too little too late. Yellow pages were slow to jump into the internet . . . they will never be what they were. IMO, BBB is in the same boat.
> 
> *Agreed, we've had negative experiences too which is why I dropped them for several years, but I think they are making enough positive changes to make it worth the small amount of money they charge so I'm giving them another chance. Time will tell...*
> 
> ...


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Personal - Prior to sending about $5,000.00 to an out-of-state furniture store, I did my homework. At the time, internet reviews were not what they are today. So, I did what any prudent person would do, I called the local BBB office in their city. Very highly rated with no complaints. 

Confidently, I fax my order, and submit credit card info., based on the ever-so-authoritative, best consumer advocate out there, oh so precious BBB. About three mos. later I get a letter that my furniture won't be coming, they are filing for bankruptcy. 

Called the BBB, and asked for the same lady I spoke with about the furniture company's BBB rating / experience. I explained that no one at the furniture company was returning my calls and I wanted to know if I would be getting any money back.

Basically she said "that's such a shame. They had financial troubles a couple of years back and she said they (BBB) were hoping the furniture company would pull through."  

She withheld relevant information that would have cost me $5,000.00. Thankfully, I had paid the deposit with AMEX and I received every penny back.



aprilmayb said:


> When you are a member of the BBB, they have a problem resolution team that works with you and they require people to go through their resolution process before they can tarnish your rating.


:no: They may have one, but you might be surprised how it falls short. Had a BBB Complaint that was absolutely bogus. Customer name did not exist, the telephone number was not real, we had never worked in the home. etc.

Told the BBB:

1. Never heard of this customer - plus, could not find them listed in any telephone book.
2. Never worked at the address listed in the complaint. 
3. Telephone number provided was bogus. Actually belonged to someone else, at a completely different address.
4. Complaint over the top and unbelievable.

BBB would look into it. They attempted to contact the person who sent in the complaint via e-mail. Surprise, surprise. No response.

BBB agreed the name was probably made up and they also found that the number provided was not correct either. Case closed.

However, it still showed up as a complaint. That is TOTAL BULLSHIOT!



> This gives everyone a chance to cool off and is equally fair to consumer and business.


In theory, it sounds good. In the real world, not so much.



> 3. It's cheap. In the grand scheme of things, that's a lot of professional web exposure for such a small amount of money. I can join the BBB for a year for the price it costs me to be on Angie's List for 2 weeks.


Loss leader??? Would you expect it to stay cheap? Think about this, if it so cheap, wouldn't every contractor want to pay them their ransom? Ummm, I mean 'membership fee.'

Let's assume we all join . . . SEO becomes meaningless, because we all benefit equally. No edge, just paying money for more of the same shiot.

I'm not picking on you April, so I hope you don't take any of this personally. BBB is not so altruistic, just another business trying to make a dime. Make no mistake, they don't care about the consumer, anymore than they care about the contractor. Just another greedy business that strong arms and utilizes scare tactics.

I checked our local BBB, I wouldn't use any of the plumbers that are accredited. Most were franchises, and the others, rip-off cos. 

We try to do our best, and most of our customers believe that we are the best. There are several other very good plumbing cos., a consumer won't find them on the BBB site either.

Food for thought - we specialize in service. When a H.O. has a sewage back up, they aren't going to the BBB.

I have followed your posts, and for the most part, find you spot on. Reread your post on finding business, and work your current base - you will be just fine! :yes: Your integrity will take you where you want to go - not the BBB.

They have none. :no:


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

I don't feel picked on, I understand where you are coming from and I repeat, I couldnt care less about the BBB except for the $$$ they put in my pocket. I dont expect them to be fair, but none if these companies are. One other motivation of mine, to which I alluded earlier, is to diversify advertising dollars and support competition of Angie's List. I am sick of Angie's List. They've gotten too big for their britches. Since they stole the BBB model, I'm hoping the BBB will keep them from gaining a Monopoly. I think they need a serious competitor to challenge their prices and so far the only viable option I see is the BBB. If someone doesn't stop Angie's List, I could see them easily driving a lot of small businesses out of business when the only people who can afford them are the huge national plumbing companies. In fact, when I was "negotiating" (and by that I mean being bullied) my contract this year, they basically laughed at us and said they are negotiating nation wide contracts with all the big boys and that they are not getting charged as much per lead as the small companies. They are publicly owned now FYI.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

aprilmayb said:


> *Yes, I know how it works. I'm not saying it's going to skyrocket my company's site to the top, although it won't hurt either. What I meant by my "free seo dollars" comment is that they ARE at the top of the list here. They show up at the top of every city here. With their budget, they will be at the top whether I like it or not. So for the small money they charge, I want to be at the top of their list.*


Fair enough, BUT, just because they are at the top, doesn't mean all customers go to their site to check out plumbers. Consumers still like organic listings and will bypass all review sites and directory type websites. They like making their own selections. 



> If a consumer is looking for a plumber in my city, I want my site to come up and I want the potential customer to connect with our message.
> 
> *Agreed, but there is no way you can compete here.*


April you disappoint - *YOU* can compete! BBB, nor Angie's List got you to where you are today. :no: The skills you possess and the way you treat your customers is what made you successful, and it is what will keep you successful. 



> *I am starting to feel like a salesman for the BBB which I am in NO WAY. I couldn't care less about them. But it's only $600 a year. Compared to all the similar sites, that is chump change. I can't send out Christmas cards to my customer database for that. How many calls do I need to get from them in that year to break even? Possibly only one, maybe 2. What if I got 6? Money well spent. It's just a good business decision for us - I hope. Time will tell.*


If I spent $600.00 and gained 4 customers, meh. If I spent $600.00 and had $3,000.00 in sales off it, meh. If it was the BBB, I don't need the 4 customers, nor do I need the $3,000. in sales.

If it cost $600.00 and I gained 75 customers, or generated $30,000.00 in sales, BBB or not, I would send them my $600.00. :yes: It's business, and I won't let emotionality rule the day.

I'm principled, not stupid. 

Don't sell yourself short, they need you more than you need them.

That said, I hope it does work well for you. Track your leads, track your sales, and when time allows, evaluate the type of customers you gained. 

P.S. - I especially liked your post about charity.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

Thanks Queen Bee. I respect your opinion. I'll give it a little more thought before I sell my soul to the devil.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

aprilmayb said:


> Thanks Queen Bee. I respect your opinion. I'll give it a little more thought before I sell my soul to the devil.


Thank you.

I trust you will make the right decision for the company you and your husband own / operate. I don't believe it is selling your soul to the devil - if the numbers make sense, than go for it. At this point in time, we don't need another truck on the road, nor do I need more income. I am content, so I choose not to feed the animal (BBB). The more it is fed, the more it will require.

What I am trying to do is push you to dig deeper. Obviously, some things work and others don't. The BBB isn't necessarily an edge. Anyone who wants to pay the fee and provides decent value, should be able to maintain an "A" rating. What I would like for you to discover, is how your company can shine among all the "A" rated companies in your area. Think outside the box, use your logic, and success will follow. I don't know you, but I see you are passionate about what you do. That alone sets you apart. 

If we rely too heavily on things that anyone can do, i.e. Yellow Pages, Angie's List, BBB, Chamber, Flyers etc., we can lose our edge. All legitimate plumbing cos. have a license, insurance, the best plumbers, the best pricing, the quickest response time, x amount of years experience, etc. BUT the one thing they don't have is 'April and her husband.' That, my dear, is your EDGE and ticket to success. :thumbup:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I got hustled, heavily by the BBB to get back in their accreditation. Was trying to figure out 'why' they was working so hard to get my money, then 'why' are you willing to take monthly payments ($31/month) to get me into the equation. 


???? 


I see 'now' that customers/anyone can give reviews. This is where Yelp is touted high in the big picture for the ongoing list of reviews. Google reviews, never have I been given any recognition from that, ever. I do know that some have done well with that format. 


For now, knowing that I can't spend money that I don't have, I can't say yes. I'm still getting work by having the good rating, 'most' don't know the rest. However I cannot use the logo on anything I got from a marketing point of view.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I trust you will make the right decision for the company you and your husband own / operate. I don't believe it is selling your soul to the devil - if the numbers make sense, than go for it. At this point in time, we don't need another truck on the road, nor do I need more income. I am content, so I choose not to feed the animal (BBB). The more it is fed, the more it will require.
> 
> ...


Yah but they don't have Oldschool ...


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Yah but they don't have Oldschool ...


AMEN!

Thank goodness he is in the Great White North.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

This is more of a pet peeve thing - why should small businesses support what is clearly a consumer benefit? 

Okay, pay a fee for the BBB to keep a file on your business. Then, what we have paid for, the consumer gets for free. All of our fees would be less if the consumer paid their fair share.

I won't do menus, placemats, real estate folders, register tapes, etc. 

If I were more 'ballsy,' I would sell space on the back of our invoices. However, I could not 'sell it' with a straight face. :no:


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

Phat Cat said:


> This is more of a pet peeve thing - why should small businesses support what is clearly a consumer benefit?
> 
> Okay, pay a fee for the BBB to keep a file on your business. Then, what we have paid for, the consumer gets for free. All of our fees would be less if the consumer paid their fair share.
> 
> ...


Who sells advertising space in the back if invoices? I've never seen that in the trades.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

johntheplumber said:


> Who sells advertising space in the back if invoices? I've never seen that in the trades.


See you could be the first ...


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

*how about*



Phat Cat said:


> This is more of a pet peeve thing - why should small businesses support what is clearly a consumer benefit?
> 
> Okay, pay a fee for the BBB to keep a file on your business. Then, what we have paid for, the consumer gets for free. All of our fees would be less if the consumer paid their fair share.
> 
> ...


How about selling advertising space on water heaters? It's a blank slate!
Couldn't be any more shameful than soft drink advertising in schools.


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## aprilmayb (Feb 11, 2013)

phat cat said:


> if i were more 'ballsy,' i would sell space on the back of our invoices. However, i could not 'sell it' with a straight face. :no:


Oh my gosh that is soooo brilliant!!! I am going to do this.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

If you start selling advertising on the back of your invoices, your invoices will eventually be three feet long. Kinda like at the grocery store, you buy two items and the receipt is twelve inches because of the ads.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I'm going to start selling ad space n my uniforms. It works for NASCAR.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> This is more of a pet peeve thing - why should small businesses support what is clearly a consumer benefit?
> 
> Okay, pay a fee for the BBB to keep a file on your business. Then, what we have paid for, the consumer gets for free. All of our fees would be less if the consumer paid their fair share.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with this. I don't participate in things like BBB or Angie's list. I don't believe these services are beneficial to me at all, only consumers. Why should I fund a system that leverages my capital, for no direct benefit. Neither of these two services will have an exclusivity with me, they advertise all of my competitors as well. Why would I want to help them grow?

If no one payed for these things we would all be better off. I focus on advertising which showcases me, and only me.


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## Dan (Nov 29, 2011)

I was at the Dept of Motor Vehicles yesterday and a towing company furnished all the literature racks. Pretty good thinking on their part


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> We where a member (accredited) of the BBB since 1985. We were only paying $400.00 a year to be a member, then $200 a year to be listed on their online directory, and ability to use their logo and link on our web page.
> 
> This year we did not have the funds at the time it was due so we are no longer a member, but we did call to make arrangements to get back with them. We have gotten many jobs from the BBB, and cause we have an A+ rating....


That sucks you can't afford that. Times are hard for many of us, brother-in-poop.

That's what they want to charge us here. I told them that it should be a fraction of that based on pop/income. They wouldn't bend at all.

We have a A+ rating, too with no complaints. Might have something to do with having no complaints serious enough to warrant a BBB issue.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Plumber said:


> That sucks you can't afford that. Times are hard for many of us, brother-in-poop.
> 
> That's what they want to charge us here. I told them that it should be a fraction of that based on pop/income. They wouldn't bend at all.
> 
> We have a A+ rating, too with no complaints. Might have something to do with having no complaints serious enough to warrant a BBB issue.


If you have no customers, there's no one to complain...


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