# Are all unions the same...



## The Tank (Feb 4, 2016)

I've been an apprentice at my union for over a year, and I've received nothing but short calls. I'll work for two weeks and then get laid off because the job has been completed. Most union companies already have their guys, so when your union calls you to work you're just an extra hand, they're not planning to keep you long term. It seems like the only guys that work consistently are the guys who have a relative working for the company. Guys like me who don't know anyone get kicked to the curve. You could have been on the out of work list the whole year, but if your union calls you for a job that is going to last only 3 weeks, you will get put on the very back, which means you will be out of work for possibly another year. Are all unions the same? Is this the only **** that they offer? How the hell am I ever going to get the hours to become a journeyman at this rate?


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

I'm going to take a shot at this, even though you didn't post a proper intro.
The best way to get in is to get hired on by a union shop in another capacity (eg., shop person, driver). Once in the door you can get your feet wet by learning the terminology of the parts and pieces of the trade as well as show them you are reliable, trustworthy and eager to learn. Then, you ask to be sponsored by them for apprenticeship. They can be your meal ticket right through to graduation and beyond.
This doesn't apply to you, since you are already in though I don't know how you did so without sponsorship. 
In your case, I'd make a deal with your next temp employer to hire you on w/o pay until they think you're worth it. Then, bust your gonads to prove you are. Though I can't guarantee this will make them true believers in you, it certainly will make them take notice, which is a whole lot better than what you're experiencing now.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Tank, 
Not all unions are like that, but some shops are. They don't employ apprentices but hire them as needed. It sucks. But as for short calls, I was an apprentice and was laid off for 17 months. I took a short call and it turned into a year and 3 months. I turned that into another job, for 3+ years, and just quit that job to work closer to home. 

Hang in there, bust your ass, keep every phone number of everyone you work with. Keep in touch. Talk to the owner or super if the opportunity arises. Let them know you want to work, and are hoping to catch on long term. Ask questions, be positive, admit mistakes and take criticism.

What local? 

And post an intro!


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

Post intro first


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

the unions in our town are basically like you described
and you have to be related to someone to be considered and stay 
on a job long term. If you have a father or relative high in the unions around here you could literally kill someone on the job and still stay on...


its not fair but that is how it is..


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## The Tank (Feb 4, 2016)

I'm 26 years old, from local 761 (Burbank, CA). I've been an apprentice at local 761 for a little over a year and have only worked 32 days. I am currently working for a company but they have said that they are going to lay off some guys because jobs are coming to an end. Since I wasn't sponsored by that company I'm going to get laid off. I called my union and asked them if I would get put on the back of the list even though this job isn't going to last very long and they said that I would be placed on the back of the out of work list. If you work more than 10 days my union puts you on the back. This is BS. How is this even a career? Work less than a month and now you have to wait around a whole year to get dispatched to a job.


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## The Tank (Feb 4, 2016)

Plumbus said:


> I'm going to take a shot at this, even though you didn't post a proper intro.
> The best way to get in is to get hired on by a union shop in another capacity (eg., shop person, driver). Once in the door you can get your feet wet by learning the terminology of the parts and pieces of the trade as well as show them you are reliable, trustworthy and eager to learn. Then, you ask to be sponsored by them for apprenticeship. They can be your meal ticket right through to graduation and beyond.
> This doesn't apply to you, since you are already in though I don't know how you did so without sponsorship.
> In your case, I'd make a deal with your next temp employer to hire you on w/o pay until they think you're worth it. Then, bust your gonads to prove you are. Though I can't guarantee this will make them true believers in you, it certainly will make them take notice, which is a whole lot better than what you're experiencing now.


I got into my union because I did good on the math test and interview.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Tank, hang in there. Or move to Chicago. I'll put to work.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Tank
I'm hiring and I'm closer than Chicago.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Tank, Chicago is real the real plumbers with. Big pipe in Chicago, big pipe!


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

Flyout stop: )

Tank; I'm a local 78 journeyman.
The truth is, it you can't follow simple instructions like posting an intro on this forum.

I seriously doubt you can follow the instructions your journeyman gives you.

If your getting turned around as a first year, you will never work as a journeyman.

The truth hurts.


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

One thing I can't stand is when someone blames the union for there lack of skill, work ethic or talent.

Educate yourself and get off your ass and off this forum and get busy.


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

Fatpat said:


> One thing I can't stand is when someone blames the union for there lack of skill, work ethic or talent.
> 
> Educate yourself and get off your ass and off this forum and get busy.



Thank you for this post. Truer words were never spoken.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Flyout95 said:


> Tank, Chicago is real the real plumbers with. Big pipe in Chicago, big pipe!


Great weather, too.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Plumbus said:


> Great weather, too.


One week out of the year. Just not a consistent week. Few hours here, few hours there...


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## The Tank (Feb 4, 2016)

Fatpat said:


> Flyout stop: )
> 
> Tank; I'm a local 78 journeyman.
> The truth is, it you can't follow simple instructions like posting an intro on this forum.
> ...


I'm new here and I didn't know that I had to write an intro, calm the **** down. 
My union only hits me up with short calls. A lot of the times that they call me for work is to work with a non-union company. There's no opportunity with a non-union shop. Once the job is done they won't keep you obviously. The two previous union companies that I worked for were small and they already had their guys. Currently I'm working for a union company. I started working 2 weeks ago, and my foreman said that since some jobs were coming to an end, some people were going to get laid off. I asked him if I was going to get laid off and he said he didn't know that he was going to ask. If I get laid off I will get put on the back of the list. It sucks that my union has a rule that if we work more than 10 days we get put on the back of the list. It took me a whole year to move to the front of the list. My work ethic is not a problem. Skill wise, I'm not good because I'm a first year apprentice. Did you know everything about plumbing as a first year apprentice? And obviously I'm not going to learn much if I'm always sitting on the bench.


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## The Tank (Feb 4, 2016)

Plumbus said:


> Tank
> I'm hiring and I'm closer than Chicago.


How's work up there?


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

Tank- 
What did you do that whole year you sat on the books? Waited by the phone?
Did you get busy with side work? Did you work nonunion? Did you do anything to educate yourself out side of the Union?

I can tell you have some entitlement issues.

My old man got a 3month call his first year in the union, and 30 years later he is retired and never went back to the hall.

As an apprentice My first job was a 6 month call, after 7 years with that company I left to work for the government.

I can tell from your conversation with your foreman that you will be laid off, they don't call the hall for guys then 2 weeks later start laying off. 

You need to take a serious look at your career choice, this isn't for everyone. Like I said before; if you can't stay busy as an apprentice , you will never work as a journeyman.

Its not the call, it's not the company and its not the union. It's the common denominator that links the three.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Fatpat said:


> Tank-
> What did you do that whole year you sat on the books? Waited by the phone?
> Did you get busy with side work? Did you work nonunion? Did you do anything to educate yourself out side of the Union?
> 
> ...


While in some cases I'll agree, it's not always true. A lot of companies don't keep apprentices anymore, they use them for the unskilled portions then give them paper. Very few j-men these days want to teach apprentices anything because they feel it's "not their job" also I've met many that view them as competition. 

As far as our fathers experiences... This isn't the good old days... You're lucky to work 30 years, let alone with one shop. It isn't the same world anymore. If Tank was a j-man who couldn't catch on, I'd say he was a slug, but since he's a 1st year, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. He's on here asking what MORE he can do. He's feeling like his options are running out. 

Hang in there, try hard, learn as much as possible, be early, and stay off your phone at work... If you are doing those things, it is only a matter of time.


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

I cannot believe your hiring hall would send their members to non signatory (non-union) contractors. Unless they are salting?


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

I have never heard of salting with apprentices.


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

It's some prevailing wage contract loop hole, nonunion companies can bid on prevailing wage jobs but they have to use 30% labor from the local union.

It's a bunch of bull ****


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

Flyout- I'm trying to motivate tank to take a stand and improve his own situation.

Tank could at the training center getting welding certs, brazing certs, backflow tester training etc for free!

Get busy, educate yourself and make yourself more valuable then the next guy.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

I have never sent a great apprentice back to the hall, I only send the worthless ones that talk on their phones all day or walk around with their hands in their pockets to the bench.


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

Fatpat said:


> It's some prevailing wage contract loop hole, nonunion companies can bid on prevailing wage jobs but they have to use 30% labor from the local union.
> 
> It's a bunch of bull ****


Weird California sh!t? Prevailing wage doesn't work that way in Illinois


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## The Tank (Feb 4, 2016)

Flyout95 said:


> While in some cases I'll agree, it's not always true. A lot of companies don't keep apprentices anymore, they use them for the unskilled portions then give them paper. Very few j-men these days want to teach apprentices anything because they feel it's "not their job" also I've met many that view them as competition.
> 
> As far as our fathers experiences... This isn't the good old days... You're lucky to work 30 years, let alone with one shop. It isn't the same world anymore. If Tank was a j-man who couldn't catch on, I'd say he was a slug, but since he's a 1st year, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. He's on here asking what MORE he can do. He's feeling like his options are running out.
> 
> Hang in there, try hard, learn as much as possible, be early, and stay off your phone at work... If you are doing those things, it is only a matter of time.


This. Fatpat, times have changed. Maybe your experience in the union was better than mine because your dad was in it.


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## The Tank (Feb 4, 2016)

rwh said:


> I cannot believe your hiring hall would send their members to non signatory (non-union) contractors. Unless they are salting?


The first job I ever worked was for a non-union company. My job was to remove toilets from apartments. The guys I was working with were not even ****en plumbers.


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## The Tank (Feb 4, 2016)

Fatpat said:


> Tank-
> What did you do that whole year you sat on the books? Waited by the phone?
> Did you get busy with side work? Did you work nonunion? Did you do anything to educate yourself out side of the Union?
> 
> ...


How the hell do I have entitlement issues? 
How can I do side work when I don't know much about plumbing? Can't work non-union plumbing jobs.

And I was learning how to weld and braze in my off time.


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

Tank-

My dad was a welder out of local 250.
Not the same Union nor does that rarely matter.

Yes you are entitled: 
it's up o the union to find you a good company, it's up to the company to keep you busy, And it's up to your journeyman to teach you.

Now which part of your career is your responsibility?

Mean while you can cry on a forum on how you don't no anything, and you wish you could stay busy.

I learned a lot about plumbing doing side jobs for my family and friends when I was an apprentice.


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

justme said:


> I have never sent a great apprentice back to the hall, I only send the worthless ones that talk on their phones all day or walk around with their hands in their pockets to the bench.



Sorry tank truth hurts


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## CT-18 (Jun 27, 2016)

Does your hall not have a separate list for apes. I think it is harder now a days for the kids because the bid process is so tight companies dont want to bring on a kid to train. They want apes putting in pipe.

Good luck youngster, keep your nose clean and learn as much as you can as fast as you can.


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## The Tank (Feb 4, 2016)

CT-18 said:


> Does your hall not have a separate list for apes. I think it is harder now a days for the kids because the bid process is so tight companies dont want to bring on a kid to train. They want apes putting in pipe.
> 
> Good luck youngster, keep your nose clean and learn as much as you can as fast as you can.


I don't think so. A bunch of guys from my class have already dropped out because work is so slow. There was 20 guys, now there's 8.


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## The Tank (Feb 4, 2016)

Fatpat said:


> Sorry tank truth hurts


Here you go again accusing me of being a **** worker, **** you. My business agent tells me it's a short call before I take the job. Just because you had a short call that turned to a long thing doesn't mean everyone will, get that through your head.


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## The Tank (Feb 4, 2016)

Fatpat said:


> Tank-
> 
> My dad was a welder out of local 250.
> Not the same Union nor does that rarely matter.
> ...


It sure as hell matters. The guys in my class who have had steady work work along side their relatives. Hey genius, not everyone has family and friends that do plumbing. No one in my family is a plumber, and I can't work for a non-union company. WTF am I paying dues for then, if the union is not supposed to do ****?
My part of this career is to be on time, pay attention, ask questions, go to school, be ready, etc. 
What's the union's responsibility?


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## CT-18 (Jun 27, 2016)

In Detroit back in the late 80's early 90"s when i got in they would rotate the apes in and out because times were slow and they wanted to make sure a kid didnt sit on the books and not get any training.

We went through some real bad times 10 or so years ago where half our local was out of work. I know guys that were out of work well over a year, many guys and girls lost everything. I left for Chicago in 2010 and we stayed for 2 years. I would still be there but the wife and kid got home sick.

Hang in there kid things will get better and you need to learn from this. Make sure you are as prepared as possible for things to get slow at any time.


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

The Tank said:


> Fatpat said:
> 
> 
> > Tank-
> ...



I know why you can't stay employed.
You can't ****ing read. My dad was a welder, not a plumber. No one in my family is in local 78 or a plumber.

Good apprentices don't get laid off.
But don't worry wal-mart is always hiring and you'll fit right in.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Tank
Many of locals in the Bay Area have benches that are collecting dust. Unfortunately, it's an expensive place to live.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Fatpat said:


> I know why you can't stay employed.
> You can't ****ing read. My dad was a welder, not a plumber. No one in my family is in local 78 or a plumber.
> 
> Good apprentices don't get laid off.
> But don't worry wal-mart is always hiring and you'll fit right in.


I was laid off for 17 months... Was I a bad apprentice?


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

I have to assume that Tank must be dating Fatpats daughter for him to be acting like that. An awful lot of presumptions from a couple paragraphs(and still no intro from Tank)


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

Tank

Are you allowed to go out and solicit your own job?If you are start beating the streets and find a job for yourself,the union isn't going to cover for you all of the time.

I've been in the trade for a long long time and have seen 3 weeks of unemployment during my career,I have no relatives or connections in the trade.Get yourself a yes sir no sir attitude and and bust your ass,somewhere in the future you'll stick with a JM and a shop and find that you'll get to hang around for a while.


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

Flyout95 said:


> Fatpat said:
> 
> 
> > I know why you can't stay employed.
> ...


Fly out I bet in the 17 months you stayed busy.

I'm trying to give Tank some real advice.
The only way you'll survive is by keeping yourself busy. That means working at grandmas or for your brother/uncle/neighbors 
doing whatever side work you can


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

I can't believe this thread has gone five pages with no intro from tank. Where are the admin

I would take a little easier on tank if he would follow the rules


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Fatpat said:


> Fly out I bet in the 17 months you stayed busy.
> 
> I'm trying to give Tank some real advice.
> The only way you'll survive is by keeping yourself busy. That means working at grandmas or for your brother/uncle/neighbors
> doing whatever side work you can


I delivered pizza, and took every class the union provided, and construction management classes, and CAD classes....I didn't do side work cause I didn't want to be liable for something.

Eventually I took a non union job for a residential shop. My first day, the union called offered a short call and I never went back to the bench.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Also, I've seen what is happening to tank happen with apprentices around here, they are only used as laborers, no one will train them. Not all, but some. It's mostly guys my age, and a bit older who were scorned by the market crash and see everyone as a threat... Including first years.

Now me, my goal is always to have the skills the guy infront of me has... So now that I'm a lead foreman, I'm trying to learn how to be a super, so when an opportunity presents its self I'll be ready... Never go backwards.


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

I'll try to share anything and everything I know with an apprentice,the more they can do the less I have to do.We have 1-1st year,3-2nd year,1-3rd year on the job now,some days their pack mules,some days they hang pipe.The 3rd year would be the first to go,not because of him being more expensive but because he's got a **** attitude!


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

Everyone eats some sh!t. I'm as union as they come. However, I've worked non union. Either way, put up or shut up. You are good hand, you work. You act like a self entitled ittle *****, you don't work.


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

rwh said:


> Everyone eats some sh!t. I'm as union as they come. However, I've worked non union. Either way, put up or shut up. You are good hand, you work. You act like a self entitled ittle *****, you don't work.


Amen


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## Cipp-pro (Jul 16, 2016)

Couldn't you go work at a non union shop and not sit around waiting


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## CT-18 (Jun 27, 2016)

Cipp-pro said:


> Couldn't you go work at a non union shop and not sit around waiting


In Detroit area you cant work non union unless the hall places you there to salt them. I dont think they use apes to salt companies.


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## Cipp-pro (Jul 16, 2016)

How can the hall place you in a non union company? And if your not in the union how can the hall dictate where you work


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Cipp-pro said:


> How can the hall place you in a non union company? And if your not in the union how can the hall dictate where you work


They salt in union employees to attempt to organize them.


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## CT-18 (Jun 27, 2016)

I guess the kid could go work for a non union shop, he has the right to make a living. I know when things were bad in Detroit area guys had to do what they had to. The hall will be pissed but bills have to be paid.

I member back in the early 90's when i got in we only had 68 apprentices, and at one point 52 were laid off. My BA at the time told me that during the 80's when work was bad they weren't bringing in new classes of apprentices.


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## RP's Plumbing (Jul 20, 2016)

Hear Hear


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/trd/5717918712.html


Sorry tank, the truth hurts


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Fatpat said:


> http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/trd/5717918712.html
> 
> 
> Sorry tank, the truth hurts


What's that have to do with him? We had 700 guys out of work and still took apprentices.


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

Fly out 
I live in SoCal there's a lot of work, and they can't fill the jobs with apprentices


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## CT-18 (Jun 27, 2016)

We have a 14 week rule that you dont go to the bottom until you work 14 weeks. I am not sure if it applies to apes.


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## Cipp-pro (Jul 16, 2016)

Is every company in y'all's area union?? What are the benefits to the union if you are layed off all the time


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## The Tank (Feb 4, 2016)

Fatpat said:


> http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/trd/5717918712.html
> 
> 
> Sorry tank, the truth hurts


I'm still working dumbass.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Back to the original question. Are all the same.

No way. In my area there is a line dividing tow locals and it splits between tow regional towns.

One hall (used to) let the owner work up to an R4 with himself and an apprentice, all others have to hire.

The other side of the line, the owner can do no work. No this has been years ago mind you. I went to the office and asked why the difference and that this particular hall would not let an owner work. His direct answer was "we know how to do it better". I said thanks for his time and left.

These two are not big on letting each other cross lines. So a business owner is more or less restricted to bidding on his side of the line.


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## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

Yeah all unions are the same they suck


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## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

I do believe there is a place on this Earth for unions but I don't know where I did my 30 story building in Manhattan private perfect done I did have a hard time finding people who knew what the hell they were doing I guess that was one thing that Union is good for Define skilled labor but when your king and you just keep your eye on quality do Union becomes less and less important and more and more private contractor cares about his project


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

jnohs said:


> I do believe there is a place on this Earth for unions but I don't know where I did my 30 story building in Manhattan private perfect done I did have a hard time finding people who knew what the hell they were doing I guess that was one thing that Union is good for Define skilled labor but when your king and you just keep your eye on quality do Union becomes less and less important and more and more private contractor cares about his project


What?


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## ace4548 (Feb 10, 2015)

They must not teach punctuation at non-Union trade school. I'm not perfect, but at least you can read my sentences. As for quality of union work , I'm not sure if it's different where you are, but here, all of the journeyman I have worked with or talk to take great pride in quality. And all of them, work buzzer to buzzer. Not even making that up. It's non stop, all day .


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Phuck punctuation!! It only leads to comprehension. 

It makes more sense if you try to read that run-on sentence with a foreign accent, doesn't matter which accent, your best one will work.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

jnohs said:


> I do believe there is a place on this Earth for unions but I don't know where I did my 30 story building in Manhattan private perfect done I did have a hard time finding people who knew what the hell they were doing I guess that was one thing that Union is good for Define skilled labor but when your king and you just keep your eye on quality do Union becomes less and less important and more and more private contractor cares about his project


my spelling and grammar suck,but you make me look like a genius...


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

jnohs said:


> I do believe there is a place on this Earth for unions but I don't know where I did my 30 story building in Manhattan private perfect done I did have a hard time finding people who knew what the hell they were doing I guess that was one thing that Union is good for Define skilled labor but when your king and you just keep your eye on quality do Union becomes less and less important and more and more private contractor cares about his project


Wow,,,,, I know sniffing to much primer. :bangin:

I like like onions, Oh hey a butterfly. Then it was Friday....................... Makes about as much sense.


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## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

Yhe solthy tobes gry and grimble in the wabe. Its called jabber wookie.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

jnohs said:


> Yhe solthy tobes gry and grimble in the wabe. Its called jabber wookie.


"wookie" now I understand the random thoughts.

Lewis Carroll, 1832 - 1898
Corrected english >>> "and the slithy toves Did gyre and gimble in the wabe"


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

that says it all....have another cup of coffee...


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## The Tank (Feb 4, 2016)

Just got laid off today. Jobs were coming to an end and me and a journeyman got laid off. Only worked 3 months, and now I have to wait maybe a whole year before I get another call from my union.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

That's all part of being union Tank. Paying your dues has precious little to do with a payroll deduction, and EVERYTHING to do with earning your place. Success is not an entitlement. It is fought for tooth and nail. Even then it will try to elude you. Not just in plumbing, not just if you are Organized, and not just if you are Dis-Organized, but in all of life. Consider Fly's layoff that lasted forever.

I am all about downloading what little I know to the young men coming into our trade and my shop. Much respect to Flyout for having a similar attitude. But not everyone has the ability or even the desire to be a mentor. Much respect as well to the other men here telling you what they think you NEED to hear, not what you WANT to hear.

The various responses you have received (positive and negative) are a sampling of the real world from the real men that have gone before you. I suggest you stop trying to swat at everything that flies in your face and focus an what is important. 

You are probably a heck of a feller, but that is not how you come across. You seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder and are building resentment for not getting what you want, when you want it. You need to stop talking about what you think and feel. Stop throwing insults at the very people that may be able to help you the most. Ponder what has been said to you, good and bad.

Honestly as a first year, the way you responded to hearing negative comments does speak volumes. Even after you are a Journeyman, others on the job will say things that piss you off. Are you the guy that feels like he has to attend every argument he is invited to? That is sure how you sound sir.

Based on your responses in this thread, I would not hire you in my Dis-Organized company. Your attitude is all wrong. You need to dial it back a notch and think about the lifetimes of experience that has been freely offered to you by these men.


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