# Water supply leak in house or in crawlspace. Not located so far



## etbrown4 (Dec 25, 2011)

Our customer has a water leak in a cold water supply line which is proving quite hard to find. It has resulted in two consecutive water bills of $400.

Closing the main valve upon entering the house, the noise of the leak stops. The city water meter stops as well.

We believe it's the cold water supply because using the 'ear-to-the-pipe' test at various places in the crawl space, the leak noise is noticeably louder with the cold water line.

There is no obvious water or moisture collecting in or under the house. There are no drips in the crawl space, that we can observe.

There seems to be no apparent leak at any toilet or faucet. We are aware of the food coloring test. There is no leak at the vertical overflow tube in any toilet.

It is dry around the base of the water heater. The water heater pop off is not leaking.

No exterior bibs are leaking per a visual check.

There is no pool or sprinkler system.

We've done the screwdriver to ear, listening test, at all fixtures and can't really tell where it's louder.

There is a hot water boiler system which is supplied with a 1/2 line. There are no leaks apparent on the boiler and no leaks apparent in the baseboard radiator piping. When you shut off the valve supplying the boiler, the leaking noise continues. The boiler pop off is not leaking.

Obviously we have missed something, because we still have a leak!! 

If worse come to worse, we may have to resort to tracing the supply line around the crawl space and cutting and capping off the supply line until the flow, or leak stops. Though that would result in quite a few couplings being installed and a lot of time.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Mmm, questionable question by a plumber.


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## Turd Chaser (Dec 1, 2011)

What is a "pop off"???

We typically call it a T&P valve..."pop off" sounds like a ho or not-so handyman


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

call a plumber sir, yea its gonna cost alot, get rdy


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Where did you learn all those leak testing techniques?:whistling2:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

etbrown4 said:


> Our customer has a water leak in a cold water supply line which is proving quite hard to find. It has resulted in two consecutive water bills of $400.
> 
> Closing the main valve upon entering the house, the noise of the leak stops. The city water meter stops as well.
> 
> ...


I would guess that you have a leak between the house and the meter. Better call a plumber.


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Mmm, His profile shows a plumber, but I dont know, ...................


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Bill said:


> Mmm, His profile shows a plumber, but I dont know, ...................


 
ground check em , then we can find out :laughing:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

If you can't find the Intro Section of this forum, It's no wonder you can't find a leak.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

And util you do a intro, you may get some bad info.


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

If its not in the crawlspace maybe its in the wall just a thought:whistling2:


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

I'll send my apprentice over in a minute to teach you how plumbing works.:laughing:


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

etbrown4 said:


> Obviously we have missed something,
> 
> yes u have:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::whistling2:
> 
> hope u got mighty puddy under the tree:thumbup:


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Sounds like a bad meter I would just remove it


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## etbrown4 (Dec 25, 2011)

We'd be happy to find out the meter is bad......only problem is that the flow or leak stops when the main valve at the house is closed, so I'm afraid that should eliminate the meter.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Still haven't been able to locate that Intro Section eh? Let me offer some assistance....

Click here>>>>> *http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/*


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## surfdog (Oct 20, 2011)

sounds like a henway situation


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

My guess is the water is going down a drain some where, a plumber should be able to find the leak.


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

easttexasplumb said:


> My guess is the water is going down a drain some where, a plumber should be able to find the leak.


Keyword in the sentence PLUMBER. I doubt this person is a PLUMBER :laughing:


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

I have ran across this before the water service was leaking. At one time someone knocked a hole in the sewer for cleaning access. The hole was patched by putting a piece if tin over it. The leaking water service was going right into the sewer. We ended replacing both yard lines. Maybe you should just replace the water and sewer lines.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

easttexasplumb said:


> I have ran across this before the water service was leaking. At one time someone knocked a hole in the sewer for cleaning access. The hole was patched by putting a piece if tin over it. The leaking water service was going right into the sewer. We ended replacing both yard lines. Maybe you should just replace the water and sewer lines.


GOOD IDEA! If you replace all the water and drain lines, that should resolve it by process of elimination.:thumbsup:


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## bizzybeeplumbin (Jul 19, 2011)

etbrown4 said:


> Our customer has a water leak in a cold water supply line which is proving quite hard to find. It has resulted in two consecutive water bills of $400.
> 
> Closing the main valve upon entering the house, the noise of the leak stops. The city water meter stops as well.
> 
> ...




I think you really need to call a plumber. :no:


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## bizzybeeplumbin (Jul 19, 2011)

bizzybeeplumbin said:


> I think you really need to call a plumber. :no:



(Just not me) I prefer not to get my customers off forums, Home Depot or Lowe's isles or parking lots.


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

But...but...but....he IS a plumber

Right?


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## SHAUN C (Feb 16, 2011)

etbrown4 said:


> Our customer has a water leak in a cold water supply line which is proving quite hard to find. It has resulted in two consecutive water bills of $400.
> 
> Closing the main valve upon entering the house, the noise of the leak stops. The city water meter stops as well.
> 
> ...


Could be a bad kanooter valve, I would start there.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Sounds like time for the old ******* trick. Works every time. Of course a little experience and ******* can go a long way.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I bet it's nothing that can't be fixed with a Schwinn Coupling....


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

SHAUN C said:


> Could be a bad kanooter valve, I would start there.


Nope, definitely not the kanooter valve, it's the hydrodisculation perpetuator valve.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Titan Plumbing said:


> Nope, definitely not the kanooter valve, it's the hydrodisculation perpetuator valve.


I thought they done away with those years ago.


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

Redwood said:


> I bet it's nothing that can't be fixed with a Schwinn Coupling....


Make sure you bring 1/2" and 3/4" couplings with you...save you a trip!


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

mpsllc said:


> I thought they done away with those years ago.


No they we're brought back after the manufacturer implemented more stringent testing procedures:thumbup:


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Stick a knife in the ground and listen


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## etbrown4 (Dec 25, 2011)

OP here.

I hope everyone had a great Xmas!

We've been plumbing since '72, though this was our first post on this forum. The really good news is that retirement is in sight. 'bout 2 more years.

We've really enjoyed all the fun comments!:yes:

In the absence of any solid suggestions, it seems that maybe we've presented a problem that some might not have experienced before. The last tough one we had was a leaking B&G water feeder/ regulator diaphragm on a boiler that tied into a floor drain. 

Any real tips are appreciated, though it seems that possibly there is not an easy or obvious solution on this job.:thumbsup:


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Hire a leak detection company.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Closing the main inside the house and having it stop rules out a service leak...

Is this one of those homes that has a relief valve installed instead of a thermal expansion tank?

Or is that the Pop Off valve you are referring to as not leaking and not a T&P valve...

BTW do put that intro you just made in the Introduction Section so the silly answers don't pop up some other time when they don't see the introduction there... We look and have no mercy as you saw already...:laughing:


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## etbrown4 (Dec 25, 2011)

Sure enough there is an Extrol tank on this boiler, though we did not install the equipment. The T&P line is exposed and runs to the floor drain and is in plain sight. It's dry. Same on the water heater.


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

etbrown4 said:


> OP here.
> 
> I hope everyone had a great Xmas!
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting a into even it is in the wrong section:whistling2:


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

You mentioned a crawl space, are you sure you have full access to all the house underneath. It has to be post valve at the house and should be visible underneath or going down the drain somewhere. The problem line could be exiting the house somewhere and going to say an outside workshop/guesthouse etc where the actual problem is. There are tests to do to find the line that has the movement.
Another thing to check is R/O unit if they have one.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I'm talking about something like this...










Or, This...










It's a relief valve and may be plumbed directly to a drain leaking away without being seen...

Are you able to look in a main drain or sewer cleanout and see if water is running down the drain?

In the laundry might be a possibility... Draining to the washer drain...


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## etbrown4 (Dec 25, 2011)

We can see the outlet of the 3/4 relief valve. It's dry.


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## etbrown4 (Dec 25, 2011)

In response to 'mpsllc', this particular house is on a crawl space except for a small utility room on a slab.

It does not appear that there is any plumbing in the slab except for a single drain. 

There are no out buildings or pools.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

etbrown4 said:


> In response to 'mpsllc', this particular house is on a crawl space except for a small utility room on a slab.
> 
> It does not appear that there is any plumbing in the slab except for a single drain.
> 
> There are no out buildings or pools.


Again check R/O or softener drains if applicable. Check C/O's for water going down drains. Doube check that slab for hidden lines. You mentioned a drain so might be a hidden line in wall thus a possible slab leak. 
You should be able to follow that line with movement from under the floor and see where it takes you. Leak locating equipment would help with that, if you have full access I don't see why heat testing wouldn't lead you to the pay dirt.


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## HOMER (Jun 5, 2011)

check sewer main to see if leak is flowing through it


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Install a new ball valve to the boiler.....

I am willing to bet that the sound will go away....



if it dont, then change the ballcocks in the toilets 
just for fun




if that dont work, do a smoke test to the sewer line
it wont do any good, but its fun to mess with the customers
head once in a while....


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Take pictures of this job and post them here. We are happy to help a fellow plumber and even happier to have pics of the work.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> Take pictures of this job and post them here. We are happy to help a fellow plumber and even happier to have pics of the work.


I bet he can't wait to post pics. Especially since his a$$ is still sore from the warm & fuzzy welcome he got.:whistling2: Seriously though, it is an awesome thing that, as soon as a person brings forth their credential, the members of PZ come forth with some very keen & helpful insights. I think if PZ ever wanted a fresh or new logo, it would be appropriate if it were a nut-cracker.:thumbup: I say that as a very quiet member who enjoys the banter & can't get enough of the knowledge that exists here.


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

$400 a month says the water is going _somewhere._

You've eliminated a lot of things, but there's water going out somewhere.

Are any of the neighbors stealing water? Was there a sprinkler system at one time? You might be surprised to find a line going to something abandoned.

Have you tried turning off all the stops on the water heater, toilets & sinks to see what the meter does?

If you need a hand, I'm in Raleigh too.


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## user8031 (Dec 14, 2011)

Defective meter or Defective plumber. It is one or the other!


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

If as he says he has 100% view under the house then I don't feel it's a leaking line. I think it's a faulty valve he turns off and thinks it's solid. Checking the drains would prove this.
Possibly a slab leak on the little slab outside that has a floor drain for some reason but no water lines?hmmmm. 
Or the line exits to yet another hose faucet or old sprinkler system in the back yard that no one is aware of and has a leak either in the line in the yard or at the station(s).


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

I myself once had a hose bib leak right between the blocks. Could hear it but the water was going into the cells, so it never showed.


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Also like hroark2112 said, here all the city water is separated residential use by irrigation use. 2 meters. BUT some cities may have the potable water and sprinklers on the same line. How about a yard hydrant? Or better still, an old one that dont exist but the lines are still underground.


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## Tyler38 (Dec 26, 2011)

Instead of wasting anymore time scratching your head about this, get yourself some shark bite couplings and caps and a few airtest setups with 100lb gauges, and a compressor. Obviously turn off the water first, drain down the house and cut the pipes in a few locations that isolate sections of the house. Attach the airtest with the shark bites and put in 100lbs. A $400/ month leak should be pretty obvious with a pressure test. Whichever gauge is dropping will at least tell u which area your leak is in if you cant hear the air pissing out somewhere. A good plumber should be able to do this in a fairly short amount of time. Also don't forget to shut off your boiler feed and water heater before filling the lines


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

You guys sure are helpful. Go over to contractor forum, there are plenty of HOs the need your help. the best part is you do it for free, costing the HO nothing. What?


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Tyler38 said:


> Instead of wasting anymore time scratching your head about this, get yourself some shark bite couplings and caps and a few airtest setups with 100lb gauges, and a compressor. Obviously turn off the water first, drain down the house and cut the pipes in a few locations that isolate sections of the house. Attach the airtest with the shark bites and put in 100lbs. A $400/ month leak should be pretty obvious with a pressure test. Whichever gauge is dropping will at least tell u which area your leak is in if you cant hear the air pissing out somewhere. A good plumber should be able to do this in a fairly short amount of time. Also don't forget to shut off your boiler feed and water heater before filling the lines


No intro I see, that's not good


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

What makes him different than anyone else in here including myself that posted an intro ( in wrong section though). 
I admit a 2 month old leak should be showing itself by now but I have seen exceptions I have yet to mention because it gets redundant after a while. He needs to go do some serious looking.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

mpsllc said:


> What makes him different than anyone else in here including myself that posted an intro ( in wrong section though).
> I admit a 2 month old leak should be showing itself by now but I have seen exceptions I have yet to mention because it gets redundant after a while. He needs to go do some serious looking.


It's plumbing 101, if he can't find a $400/month leak a a resi house with a crawl he needs to call in someone that can. I try not to sell out my training and tips on a Internet forum to help someone who most likely wouldn't return the favor.

You guys do realize that anyone can come to this website and say there a plumber.

After reading this thread any Joe blow could find a leak like a pro, thanks guys.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I am not sure if you can run ecu lines to the air conditioner from the boiler. If so check those lines. We found one last week leaking in a flower garden and no one was the wiser. Crawl space and you can view the area eliminates a water pipe leak in the wall of in the crawl space. I would check for a leak on a pvc line in the yard for a hose faucet supplying a shed or some type of barn. Sorry about this suggestion check for a faulty RO system constantly running.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Faulty R/O's can be bypassing and running water down the drain.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

mpsllc said:


> Faulty R/O's can be bypassing and running water down the drain.


And he couldn't find that, lol


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

He's getting suggestions where to look, not how to fix. I doubt anyone will go there atm.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I think his neighbor has dug a tunnel under the house and made a well concealed tie-in to steal water. It's that, or aliens (from outer space)


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Gotta watch those darn water stealing aliens.


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

He may live on a fault line. The tectonic plates may have shifted severing the underground water service to the house.

Enough tips, post an intro (http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/)and the thread will be re opened.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Somehow, I think I could have found this leak by now.


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