# Chemicals



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Got a job to look at tomorrow morning ...

Large apartment building ..

The guy calls saying they tested their boiler water and the PH was 8.5 

He says that they have been going through some pump problems wearing out or getting eaten up ...

Then he asked if there was any chemicals on the market to add to the system to seal the pipe walls ...

I can alter the ph of the boiler water but I can't find any chemicals to seal the boiler pipe walls put than the normal inhibitors...

Sounds to me like they are developing pin hole in the steel pipes.. If he is looking for chemicals to seal the pipe walls from the inside of the system

So the question does anybody know of some additive that can seal the walls of the pipes..

I can just imagine what I will find tomorrow ...


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

I wonder what kind of pumps? I bet the worn out or eaten up parts are the couplers.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

If its cast iron, shouldn't 8.5 be OK?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

What are you using to lower the ph??? Stay the hell away from so called chemical made by Solder Seal.. brownish color fine grits in it... yea they do work and worked too good that its plug up the orfice and 'seizing' up the stem on TRV unit.. 
There's another product that I can't remmy off of my head... very purple like color and gel like at bottom.. must mix it truoghly(sp) with warm water and system must be on at least 48 hours at high temp to get it to work and won't seize up TRV and other components..


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Gettinit said:


> If its cast iron, shouldn't 8.5 be OK?


Noooooooo....... from my memory.. between 6.5 to 8.. steam??


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Noooooooo....... from my memory.. between 6.5 to 8.. steam??


To be honest I haven't had to even think about PH since most commercial properties use a third party just for that.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Gettinit said:


> To be honest I haven't had to even think about PH since most commercial properties use a third party just for that.


 The cheapest and the easiest way to bring down the ph is to use... than using all those fancy words chemicals..


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Gettinit said:


> If its cast iron, shouldn't 8.5 be OK?


8.5 should be fine ... For some reason he was concerned about that .. Saying that this was the problem ... But it's pretty well were it should be


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> The cheapest and the easiest way to bring down the ph is to use... than using all those fancy words chemicals..


On start up, skim it and get all of the crap out. Afterwards the cheapest I think is vinegar.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I really got to see what is going on over there ... It's a closed loop hydronic system as far as I know ...

The part that concerns me is him asking for a chemical that will more or less line the pipes...

All I know of is phosphate additive... But if it is apparent that he needs some thing I think it may be to late ...


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Gettinit said:


> On start up, skim it and get all of the crap out. Afterwards the cheapest I think is vinegar.


 Other way around...  better go back to my TLAOSH book..


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Other way around...  better go back to my TLAOSH book..


PH scale..... http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/184ph.html


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Gettinit said:


> PH scale..... http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/184ph.html


 Thanks...that ph number get me confused but I stands coorect that if ya want to lower the ph, u use baking soda...


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## AWWGH (May 2, 2011)

OldSchool said:


> I really got to see what is going on over there ... It's a closed loop hydronic system as far as I know ...
> 
> The part that concerns me is him asking for a chemical that will more or less line the pipes...
> 
> All I know of is phosphate additive... But if it is apparent that he needs some thing I think it may be to late ...


Poly Ortho Phosphate is a corrosion inhibitor used to coat piping. I've used it in domestic potable systems, but not sure about using it within a steam system.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Are you looking for something like this for a boiler system?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> Are you looking for something like this for a boiler system?


 Those will give ya pentley of trouble with the heating compoments!


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

I'm not a boiler expert by any means, but how bout pumping RO water with a lower ph value into the system to lower the ph some?

Sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> I'm not a boiler expert by any means, but how bout pumping RO water with a lower ph value into the system to lower the ph some?
> 
> Sent from the jobsite porta-potty


 Thought RO water is one of the most corrisive water there is..


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Thought RO water is one of the most corrisive water there is..


All depends on the ph

Sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> All depends on the ph
> 
> Sent from the jobsite porta-potty


 What do you 'add' into RO water to lower the ph??


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> What do you 'add' into RO water to lower the ph??


If the ph is high say 8.4 before the RO system the ph afterwords might be around 7 something which is neutral. But if the water is really acidic to begin with the RO system will make it even worst.

Were talking residential RO systems like an undersink unit, etc. 


Sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

Take a water sample and get a chemical company give you a chemical plan. Last thing you want is them coming back to you, trying to sue you saying what you did or didn't do made it worse. In Edmonton we use http://saiwater.ca you will have something in your area that is similar.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Okay I went and seen the site this morning....

The problem they are having is that one of bearing assembly are leaking in 4 months time after replacing...

There are 3 s57 Armstrong pumps on this system....

He brought water into get analyzed and the ph is 9.26

I don't think it's a ph problem causing the bearing assembly to leak premature...

I have found lately that the beating assembly don't last as long as they use to ...

On other projects I have replaced these pumps with wet rotor pumps and have found them to last longer...

So what we are going to do is change all 3 pumps ...

Also found that their 100 gallon expansion tank need to be replaced ...

Also getting them to check system for leaks ... By shutting off the boiler feed and monitor it for 3 days to see if pressure drops.... Before we add anything to the system


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

rjbphd said:


> Thought RO water is one of the most corrisive water there is..


Yes it's active looking to replace minerals that were removed by membrane


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Has anyone found what is causing the bearings to fail?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Gettinit said:


> Has anyone found what is causing the bearings to fail?


This is why he got the ph tested ...

He went back to Armstrong about the bearing assembly premature failure...

They wanted the water tested ... 

The lab testing show the ph and said there was metal in the water ...

Armstrong says the problem is the quality of water in the system ..

If this was the case all three pumps would be failing in the same time frame.. 

I really think it the quality of the bearing assembly itself...


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> This is why he got the ph tested ...
> 
> He went back to Armstrong about the bearing assembly premature failure...
> 
> ...


Seems like a growing trend. I wonder if trash from start up.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Gettinit said:


> Seems like a growing trend. I wonder if trash from start up.


This is what I am starting to think that all the old type of pumps are on the way out and the material being put into it is crap...


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Of course for the bearing assemblies to leak the seals have to fail.
Those are some big pumps, what's the circulation system type? 
If zoned in some way, the flow may not be sufficient and the seals are burning out.

A pressure activated bypass as a minimum is needed if zoned or valved to allow circulators to keep moving water within their recommended curve.

How much does it leak or lose water, is a water meter installed? Oxygenated water can give the same results and just as important as PH, what's the alkalinity?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> Of course for the bearing assemblies to leak the seal have to fail.
> Those are some big pumps, what's the circulation system type?
> If zoned in some way, the flow may not be sufficient and the seals are burning out.
> 
> ...


The system is per floor per pump ... One pump per pump zone... Flow or call is controlled through pump

This is what we will find out in a few days .. With the boiler feed turned off ...if the pressure drops in system.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> The system is per floor per pump ... One pump per pump zone... Flow or call is controlled through pump
> 
> This is what we will find out in a few days .. With the boiler feed turned off ...if the pressure drops in system.


Good luck

Look for valving or TRV's in hallways perhaps feeding apartments.
You close flow on that big hunk of a pump too much, that would explain seal failures along with pipe failures for that matter.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> Good luck
> 
> Look for valving or TRV's in hallways perhaps feeding apartments.
> You close flow on that big hunk of a pump too much, that would explain seal failures along with pipe failures for that matter.


There is no pipe failure ...

I just wanted them to check if there maybe ... Before I go ahead with anything else ...

It would be nice if there was a meter on the boiler feed then I wouldnt have to do this test over a period of time


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

ZL700 said:


> Good luck
> 
> Look for valving or TRV's in hallways perhaps feeding apartments.
> You close flow on that big hunk of a pump too much, that would explain seal failures along with pipe failures for that matter.


Surely the flow through the pump wouldn't be impeded. I would think each apartment would have their own pump and thermostat to pull off the main or something similar, no?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I am pretty sure this is a two pipe system ....

Actually it's not an apartment building it more or less an old age home for nuns


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## pipes (Jun 24, 2008)

I deal with rebuilding and/or replacing pumps from 1/7 hp to 100 hp. I find that more problems are caused from a previous tech not rebuilding properly or replacing all the correct parts. 
Are they reusing a bad impeller? 
Is the pump cavitating due to a blocked strainer?
Is there wear or any other damage to the volute?

Sometimes over analyzing is just over analyzing.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

pipes said:


> I deal with rebuilding and/or replacing pumps from 1/7 hp to 100 hp. I find that more problems are caused from a previous tech not rebuilding properly or replacing all the correct parts.
> Are they reusing a bad impeller?
> Is the pump cavitating due to a blocked strainer?
> Is there wear or any other damage to the volute?
> ...


The body of the pumps are fine...

I don't know if the maintenance guy changed the impeller ...


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## AWWGH (May 2, 2011)

OldSchool said:


> This is why he got the ph tested ...
> 
> He went back to Armstrong about the bearing assembly premature failure...
> 
> ...


 Have the bearings been replaced before? Is it possible that they are not balanced and aligned correctly?


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> Got a job to look at tomorrow morning ...
> 
> Large apartment building ..
> 
> ...


 Boiler seal!


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

pilot light said:


> Boiler seal!


That's good stuff bro! If your in a pinch, like a new boiler in a bottle! Glad you told me about that stuff. Soot sticks are way easier than a brush and a vacuum on a cleaning also. Your the man!!!


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