# another piece of garbage



## johnh (Jul 6, 2013)

recently decided to try out enternal water heaters. Installed one and it worked ok. Installed another and it is a piece of garbage. I checked gas pressure and combustion several times with two different set of instruments. Both readings were within freckles of one another.

Then I call tech support and end up being on hold forever and then get a message machine. I reckon tech support is very busy with these. I finally get through after a couple dozen calls. The tech rep done his best but I had the feeling he was reading from a script. He is gong to send me some parts which really don't mean a thing to me. I would rather be paid for the countless hours lost with this.

buyer beware.

sorry for the rant but a 50-50 success rate is not good.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Being a long time Eternal installer and fan I hope I'm qualified to comment. I found the multiple ideas unique to Eternal appealing and began to install them regularly. Pvc venting (this was rare 5 or 6 years ago), stainless steel heat exchanger, 2 gallon storage/buffer tank, top feed water inlets allowing floor mounting, bottom feed stainless heat exchanger virtually eliminating the need to descale, condensing boiler design making it 98+% efficient, etc, etc. I was impressed.
So we've installed a lot of them including my house and have many happy customers. The Eternal performance is impressive, they will flat out produce some hot water. No flow restriction because it's not needed.
However, as the product ages we are starting to get repair calls around town, mostly units installed by others and dealing with Eternal is not easy.
Long waits on hold, techs often unable to answer my questions, parts are warrantied but I have to pull out a credit card and pay shipping, repairs are often many hours and multiple trips. I'm about done with this brand.


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## Dpeckplb (Sep 20, 2013)

Unfortunately other brands aren't much better.


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## johnh (Jul 6, 2013)

thanks for the replies. I get frustrated when something is defective right out of the box. It does happen, awhile back I had a american water heater power vent with a defective gas control right out of the box, it happens. Then same brand had a bad orifice on a burner and gas was spewing around the orifice rather than through it. For the small amount of water heaters we install it seems like a more than normal failure rate.

Back to the enternal, install two. first one goes ok, the second is nothing but intermittent problems. I can see a bad one once in awhile if I had installed many.

I have had good luck with rinnai.


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## Dpeckplb (Sep 20, 2013)

We have had that issue with propane navians. The gas models seen to be less temperamental.


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## johnh (Jul 6, 2013)

I got the phone call today for a credit card number so they would send the parts. It's a shame this thing isn't even a couple months old.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Dpeckplb said:


> We have had that issue with propane navians. The gas models seen to be less temperamental.


Last one I installed for lp was Nat and came with a conversion kit, am I missing something?


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## GrtLksPlbr (Aug 12, 2014)

johnh said:


> thanks for the replies. I get frustrated when something is defective right out of the box. It does happen, awhile back I had a american water heater power vent with a defective gas control right out of the box, it happens. Then same brand had a bad orifice on a burner and gas was spewing around the orifice rather than through it. For the small amount of water heaters we install it seems like a more than normal failure rate.
> 
> Back to the enternal, install two. first one goes ok, the second is nothing but intermittent problems. I can see a bad one once in awhile if I had installed many.
> 
> I have had good luck with rinnai.


Our favored local supplier is an American WH dealer, so we've put in a lot of them and their quality seems to have nose-dived in the last couple years. Multiple gas valve issues, leaking factory fittings, etc. Oh, sure, they'll send you a new gas valve, but you pay for the shipping and, of course, you'll pay labor for a man to drain the WH ALL the way down so the valve can be swapped out. Then, if you're conscientious, you'll be obligated to wait while the refilled water heater comes up to temp and shuts off normally. 

That's a lot of labor for making a new unit function the way it ought to.


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## johnh (Jul 6, 2013)

yea I know the one grtlks pipe and supply


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## Dpeckplb (Sep 20, 2013)

bct p&h said:


> Last one I installed for lp was Nat and came with a conversion kit, am I missing something?


Correct they are a conversion kit. How ever we seem to have bad gas valves and flame sensors.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Dpeckplb said:


> Correct they are a conversion kit. How ever we seem to have bad gas valves and flame sensors.


Never had either of those problems with a navian, lp or nat. I have had more flow sensors go than I want to count and one internal circ. I have found that none of them want to run very well out of the box. Every single one I would have to adjust the gas pressure to the high end of their spec.
When I first started putting them in I thought they were great. Now, not so much.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

*Subject:* Grand Hall Eternal Closed for Business

Dear Wholesaler;
 
"Please be advised: On July 15th, of last week, Grand Hall USA, Inc.; the manufacturer of the Eternal Hybrid water heaters permanently closed their offices in Garland, TX. All representatives were notified on July 16th that their rep agreements have been terminated.

We are aware that you have customers with Eternal units still in operation. We are not going away and are committed to try and help you and your customers with any issues moving forward. Please call me if you have any questions whatsoever. "


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

zl700 said:


> *subject:* grand hall eternal closed for business
> 
> dear wholesaler;
> 
> ...


wow!!!!


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

gear junkie said:


> wow!!!!


Dude! Isn't that where you took yur certification class?


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Shoot'N'Plumber said:


> Dude! Isn't that where you took yur certification class?


Yup. Guess us PHAC'ers really phaced some stuff up when we went!


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

This is why I don't endorse anybody's product for quality. This is another reason I'm more than happy letting customers supply there own junk. If a company is making a good product today just give them a few years they will screw it up&#55357;&#56837;.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Wow!!


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> *Subject:* Grand Hall Eternal Closed for Business
> 
> Dear Wholesaler;
> 
> ...



How do we confirm this?


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> How do we confirm this?


 I don't believe most of what I see on the interweb, but go to there web sight.


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## shame2game (Jul 21, 2015)

I'm a Navian fan. Have good support, put on classes at local dealers. Now this comes from what my company has gone through with other brands. When we couldn't get good service we started looking for a new product so to speak. Will see how well they handle growth. That seems to be the biggest problem with new technologies as how well the company can handle growth of the product i.e. on the fly design changes when a defective part is isolated.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

saysflushable said:


> I don't believe most of what I see on the interweb, but go to there web sight.


 Website is shutdown
http://www.eternalwaterheater.com/

Eternal links removed from parent company Grand Hall's website
http://www.grandhall.com/

I tried warning you guys back in 2012 of this product, check some of my posts. I said what I could without seeming vindictive.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

another piece of junk bites the dust... Now what does that mean for anyone who has one of those hanging in their homes and needs a warranty replacement or service.... 

It means that they are totally DICKED... SCREWED.....HUNG OUT TO DRY.... Glad I never bought into that product.. :yes::yes:


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

shame2game said:


> I'm a Navian fan. Have good support, put on classes at local dealers. Now this comes from what my company has gone through with other brands. When we couldn't get good service we started looking for a new product so to speak. Will see how well they handle growth. That seems to be the biggest problem with new technologies as how well the company can handle growth of the product i.e. on the fly design changes when a defective part is isolated.


 As I follow the industry in North America
Navien is:
#2 in tankless 
#1 in condensing tankless
#1 in Boilers


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## shame2game (Jul 21, 2015)

I have noticed certain trends with a company going bad and it normally starts with the service department.


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## shame2game (Jul 21, 2015)

Yes sir


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## shame2game (Jul 21, 2015)

I always miss spell that damn name .


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

ZL700 said:


> *Subject:* Grand Hall Eternal Closed for Business
> 
> Dear Wholesaler;
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing this.


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## BOBBYTUCSON (Feb 8, 2013)

For tankless , in order of most trust earned from me and lots of contractors in my region

1 ) rinai 
2) navien
3 ) bw
4) noritz

All of them have thier issues , but good support . And im leaning toward bw , once thier product gains reputation after being installed with few callbacks , im sticking with them for tankless. I love thier support , and refuses to outsource. usa made . Earns my sweat.


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> For tankless , in order of most trust earned from me and lots of contractors in my region
> 
> 1 ) rinai
> 2) navien
> ...


Wow!

There is always some kind of problem with most tankless, or extra work you have to do to make them work right. You got to do maintenance on this things to keep the working properly.:no:

Everything needs maintenance. But the old good water heaters could be left untouched for years. The hell I never did maintenance on my tank and it lasted about 14 years no problems. :blink:

I'm not sure I like all the stuff going on with the new water heaters:whistling2:

I feel bad for you guys dealing with the call backs everyday. I like to install them and forget about them.:yes:


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> another piece of junk bites the dust... Now what does that mean for anyone who has one of those hanging in their homes and needs a warranty replacement or service....
> 
> It means that they are totally DICKED... SCREWED.....HUNG OUT TO DRY.... Glad I never bought into that product.. :yes::yes:


We've had 1 leaker that was covered by warranty, another one that needed a mixing valve replaced and quite a few recently installed by others with a mixing valve or gasket leak problem. We're seeing those as we are the only one that will work on them around here.

The other 75 or so that we installed have had no issues. But, considering the recent problems, I have a few stored as backups and parts, my better customers will be warrantied by me.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> We've had 1 leaker that was covered by warranty, another one that needed a mixing valve replaced and quite a few recently installed by others with a mixing valve or gasket leak problem. We're seeing those as we are the only one that will work on them around here.
> 
> The other 75 or so that we installed have had no issues. But, considering the recent problems, I have a few stored as backups and parts, my better customers will be warrantied by me.



That means you are a good plumbing service man... 

if all this news gossip is true, then I am sorry for the troubles that have been dumped on you and your customers... I am sure you will probably be getting some calls from concerned customers when this news hits the fans........(if its true). 

I cant imagine they would go 100% belly up and leave everyone holding the bag, but worse things have happenned... good luck



I will stick with my simple tank type heaters and leave all these headaches for others to tackle...

I would not mind getting up to speed on some of these products, but 
I dont need the money and I dont need the headaches that bad.,.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

gear junkie said:


> Yup. Guess us PHAG'ers really phag'ed some stuff up when we went!


lol---that's great! Made my day!


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Plumber said:


> lol---that's great! Made my day!


Really? You had to change the letters to fit into your lame joke that only you find funny?


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> For tankless , in order of most trust earned from me and lots of contractors in my region
> 
> 1 ) rinai
> 2) navien
> ...


 Huh?
BW's tankless unit is a relabeled Bosch assembled in Spain


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## fhrooter72 (Apr 12, 2011)

Has anybody checked out the Jacuzzi tankless units at Lowe's? Rumor around here is, they are actually Rinnai units under the Jacuzzi name, so that Rinnai can sell to the general public.

http://www.jacuzzihotwater.com/faq.php


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## Otobeme (Jul 9, 2015)

saysflushable said:


> This is why I don't endorse anybody's product for quality. This is another reason I'm more than happy letting customers supply there own junk. If a company is making a good product today just give them a few years they will screw it up��.


This is exactly how I feel. I have no loyalties to any appliance, just give it time and it will change.


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## joeplumber85 (Jul 16, 2012)

fhrooter72 said:


> Has anybody checked out the Jacuzzi tankless units at Lowe's? Rumor around here is, they are actually Rinnai units under the Jacuzzi name, so that Rinnai can sell to the general public.
> 
> http://www.jacuzzihotwater.com/faq.php


That's definitely the Rinnai product in different clothes.


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## BOBBYTUCSON (Feb 8, 2013)

ZL700 said:


> Huh?
> BW's tankless unit is a relabeled Bosch assembled in Spain



no effin way ? seriously ? i talked to bw rep , he said all product is usa made , minus the odd stuff that they throw in like t&p's and such


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> no effin way ? seriously ? i talked to bw rep , he said all product is usa made , minus the odd stuff that they throw in like t&p's and such


No tankless is made in the U.S. With exception to one that is assembled in IL. (Intellihot)

I forgot to mention Bradford White also added a tankless made in Korea by a small company named Kiturami. Same unit that Noritz, Laars, HTP, and Westinghouse is labeling also. 

I bet a lot of you thought Noritz made all their own units.


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## BOBBYTUCSON (Feb 8, 2013)

ZL700 said:


> No tankless is made in the U.S. With exception to one that is assembled in IL. (Intellihot)
> 
> I forgot to mention Bradford White also added a tankless made in Korea by a small company named Kiturami. Same unit that Noritz, Laars, HTP, and Westinghouse is labeling also.
> 
> I bet a lot of you thought Noritz made all their own units.


that is nuts , I had no idea. This upsets me !!


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## Hillside (Jan 22, 2010)

I have one sitting in my shop that I changed out for some broken plastic part on it... Been awhile so I've forgotten what it was, if anyone needs parts lemme know I'll get the model number soon, what I usually do is I have a spare tankless at the shop that I'll throw in a customers to get them hot water until parts are ordered or unit replaced, I have gas, water and a vent setup at the shop I can repair and test units before they go back for install


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Hillside said:


> I have one sitting in my shop that I changed out for some broken plastic part on it... Been awhile so I've forgotten what it was, if anyone needs parts lemme know I'll get the model number soon, what I usually do is I have a spare tankless at the shop that I'll throw in a customers to get them hot water until parts are ordered or unit replaced, I have gas, water and a vent setup at the shop I can repair and test units before they go back for install


Is that an Eternal?


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## Hillside (Jan 22, 2010)

Ya you want it?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Hillside said:


> I have one sitting in my shop that I changed out for some broken plastic part on it... Been awhile so I've forgotten what it was, if anyone needs parts lemme know I'll get the model number soon, *what I usually do is I have a spare tankless at the shop that I'll throw in a customers to get them hot water until parts are ordered or unit replaced, I have gas, water and a vent setup at the shop I can repair and test units before they go back for install*





Wow, it sound like you really got your shi/ together when it comes to Tankless water heaters.. and making repairs for customers.. 
even throw them in a loaner. 

you are certainly going above and beyond what a lot of other slobs would probably do, ,,, which is throw out the old junk and sell someone a new unit....

we dont see enough tankless here to get that involved with them..
and I dont ever want to have spares sitting around waiting for one 
to break down somewhere in town... 

I suppose you are the go-to guy in your town to get this junk repaired........

so do you rent your spares by the day, week or monthly to the customers till you finally find them parts????:laughing::laughing:.


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## Hillside (Jan 22, 2010)

To be honest I don't like tankless. If they have the room I try and sell them a traditional style tank, I tell them they can have 2 or 3 tank style for the price of one new retro tankless install ..... trying to troubleshoot each specific brand and then model is for the birds for us, but when we come in looking like gods after 4 other plumbers say they don't know what's wrong with it it is pretty satisfying to win the customer over and our foot in the door is pretty nice, sometimes it's a joke though, install new parts all checks out, get home for the eve and get a call for no hot water, shift pisses me off


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## Hillside (Jan 22, 2010)

No rental charge...... I'm just a nice guy with a old spare unit in their eyes lol


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## Eric (Jan 10, 2011)

We have a 20-gallon electric 120-volt heater we use as a temp heater if someone's goes down. Biggest 120-volt heater we could find.. Have the vac breaker and t&P valve on it, and adapt to washing machine hoses. With a thick extension cord hard wired into it. A couple of hose wye adaptors on their washing machine valves have them going for the time being. 

That thing has seen way too many jobs....


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Same with me on the temporary heater. I keep factory refurbished units (2, a Rinnia and an Eternal) for customers just in case of a failure. No one paying $3500 - $4000 for a heater should be out of hot water over the weekend.

I've even used a refurbished unit to get the customer up and running while we wait on a delivery.


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## pdxplumber (Nov 21, 2009)

Eternal came out. I drank the kool aid. Installed 4, replacing the third one tomorrow. One took out a basement and I had to wait a week for the replacement (cost me $700 putting up my customers in a nearby hotel). 
The problem is that all plumbing fixtures are headed this way. Faucets, toilets, water heaters. I'm not saying I'm infallible, but the call backs I get are almost always related to defective fixtures. Don't even get me going on the wall hung Geberit toilet.
No more warranties on fixtures, period.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Of course not installing eternal anymore but not a bad track record. One leaker other than the recall part in several years of installations. Several calls from owners with heaters installed by other plumbers but often poorly installed units. Great ideas just poor craftsmanship IMHO.


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