# Split Cast Iron pipe



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I ran across some split cast iron pipe today. Its cracked from the back of the pipe around to the front and then down to the slab......I'm giving an estimate on this one so I do not know if I'll be doing the work or not. I say the entire piece is split all the way through the slab and into the hub. I have no idea how deep it goes but theres 54" of hub and pipe showing above the slab.......maybe it was a 5' piece so the hubs close??????? I will post pics as fast as i can.....it will take a few minutes. Its 3" pipe with a bathroom group above. The rest of the bathroom is piped with dwv copper.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

Sounds like a lightning ( insurance job ) to me


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ok here are the pics.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

I had the same sort of thing recently in a fourplex, the stack was behind the toilet in the bathroom in a 2x6 wall with adjoining apartment, sucked.
I I hammered open the floor and dug up just enough to get to the hub in the slab. Cut out the cracked cast iron pipe and removed it from the hub. Instead of having to hammer open a larger hole and into the next apartment to cut out the entire combo I made the repair with one of the rubber inserts like the one below, ran new 3" pvc up from there. No leaks and had it done including the patch in just a few hours.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

That looks just like the job I did! The bill was around 800 bucks.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Just for kicks i took this pic....I was on a service call to get a screw out of the garbage disposal that the handyman dropped while replacing the light over the Kitchen sink. The H.O said she called him but he denied that he did it. She was mad and the handyman is her maid's boyfried that "Does all trades"....The H.O said "Now he is gonna hafta come do a half days work for free".......I laughed and said "I would make him do a full days work for this..dont let him get over on you like that":laughing::laughing::laughing:. I hope she does maybe he will screw more things up!!!!! and get me more work:yes:. Look at what he did under the sink......I wonder what the H.O thought when I was taking the pic????:laughing:


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

That is a multi-tite gasket. They make them in 2 versions that I know of. The other is a dual or duo tite. Use em all the time.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

And some homeowners have to ask why do you have to cut the bottom of my cabinet just put that " u " shaped thingie on.


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## leak1 (Mar 25, 2009)

ill bet there is a hub right under the cement, i usually will use a 4by3 soilpipe by plastic adpt. and pour a lead jt., you can also do what IRON-MINN. MADMAN-RANGER said! make sure you anchor the top cast or all hell could break loose when you cut it!


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Do they make sharkbites for drainage piping?

Kidding kidding kidding

(slinks back to the other desk).....


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

When I did mine I told the crack heads upstairs to NOT use any water and by no means do NOT flush the toilet, they flushed. They were lucky it wasn't number 2.:furious:
After that I turned off the main water to the building.:laughing:


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## leak1 (Mar 25, 2009)

the faroff sound of that rushing water makes a plumber move faster then a speeding bullit!!!!!!


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> Do they make sharkbites for drainage piping?
> 
> Kidding kidding kidding
> 
> (slinks back to the other desk).....


 I'm thinking of just filling the crack with epoxy and call it a day


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I'm thinking of just filling the crack with epoxy and call it a day


Just fill it with putty and then wrap duct tape around it!:thumbsup:


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

ironranger said:


> Just fill it with putty and then wrap duct tape around it!:thumbsup:


Sadly I have seen this repair style done. It doesn't work too well.:whistling2:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Damn that sink drain is sweet! :laughing:


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## leak1 (Mar 25, 2009)

10 - 4" fernco bands????


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

leak1 said:


> ill bet there is a hub right under the cement, i usually will use a 4by3 soilpipe by plastic adpt. and pour a lead jt., you can also do what IRON-MINN. MADMAN-RANGER said! make sure you anchor the top cast or all hell could break loose when you cut it!


 There are no lead to plastic adapters available here. I'm going to start at the top where the cast and copper meet and remove that section 1st. Then I should only have 18" or so sticking out of the slab at that point. I just hope theres not a big fat footing under that wall or the Hub is split. I'm about to call the guy and give him an estimate.


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## leak1 (Mar 25, 2009)

you can pour a joint around a 4 in. pipe, just dont caulk it till it cools down.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

I was under a house that was under construction one time, repairing a sillcock that the brick masons dropped a scaffold on. They were there working there at the same time I showed up. I even told them I had to shut off the water, to fill a drum if they needed any water within the next half hour or so. Well, as soon as I hit the solder joint with the torch I heard this gushing sound of water running. I had the sillcock open that I was repairing. Masons turned the water back on. BIG MISTAKE!!
I crawled out from under that house screaming and yelling at them, was ticked!!
I put a pad lock on the meter, fixed the joint, turned the water back on, checked joint, turned water back off and put lock back on and left. Boss almost fired me over that one. :whistling2:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ok well that deal is sealed....I will do the job wed or thurs. of this week. 700.00 and I dont hafta clean up or make provisions for dust control. The owner is cleaning out the rooms and covering anything that can get concrete dust on it and is setting up fans to exhaust the room out of a window. He's an old man and wants to help carry the buckets of old concrete out if need be.....I dont think he would have given me the job if i didn't agree to that.:laughing:


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Ok well that deal is sealed....I will do the job wed or thurs. of this week. 700.00 and I dont hafta clean up or make provisions for dust control. The owner is cleaning out the rooms and covering anything that can get concrete dust on it and is setting up fans to exhaust the room out of a window. He's an old man and wants to help carry the buckets of old concrete out if need be.....I dont think he would have given me the job if i didn't agree to that.:laughing:


Make sure you post some pictures in action and of the completed job!:thumbsup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Did the split cast iron job today......it was suckcessful. I'm about to load some pics up and post them. I really dont want to do this again.....just monkey work was all it was....alot of hammering and breaking in a tight spot. The floor I thought was split brick ended up being FULL solid layed brick.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Sewer gas ate this cast iron up.....along with the copper above it. The sewer gas was very very strong and I walked out by the man hole in the street and almost threw up it was so strong......and thats with the cover still on it.
































This last pic is off topic somwhat but its the galvy and sharkbite rig,......pressured up to 400 psi.....its still hooked up and has been holding 400 psi for 2 days now.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Curious how you finished the cast iron TM. Looks like it's cracked below the hub in the picture. But it also looks like the crack wouldn't matter since it's where the rubber boot fits in?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ironranger said:


> Curious how you finished the cast iron TM. Looks like it's cracked below the hub in the picture. But it also looks like the crack wouldn't matter since it's where the rubber boot fits in?


I used a seal-tite and finished it with a wax seal around the top,just to make sure it seals good......I then poured it full of water proof hydraulic cement. I flushed the toilet about 10 times with all the faucets running.....no leaks so I concreted it. I used 3" sch40 and put a test tee about 18" off the floor. I sealed the test tee off with a test ball and started to fill it up with water....thats when we found the copper totally rotten on the vent portion/lavatory drain. All that will be cut out on friday......no price mentioned however he realizes its going to cost more now.....he said he's not gonna nickel and dime a professional and said "Replace it and treat me right" Sounds goodie goodie to me! He will be charged by the HOUR too KROLLER!!!!:laughing::thumbsup:

OH I forgot to answer your question about the Hub......Its not cracked thats black poly vapor barrier and it rolls up around the sweep and hub of the cast fitting. I looked at the pics and thought the samething......its not cracked tho!


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I used a seal-tite and finished it with a wax seal around the top,just to make sure it seals good......I then poured it full of water proof hydraulic cement. I flushed the toilet about 10 times with all the faucets running.....no leaks so I concreted it. I used 3" sch40 and put a test tee about 18" off the floor. I sealed the test tee off with a test ball and started to fill it up with water....thats when we found the copper totally rotten on the vent portion/lavatory drain. All that will be cut out on friday......no price mentioned however he realizes its going to cost more now.....he said he's not gonna nickel and dime a professional and said "Replace it and treat me right" Sounds goodie goodie to me! He will be charged by the HOUR too KROLLER!!!!:laughing::thumbsup:


The cast repair sounds good. The next job without a quoted amount and signed contract sounds like a disaster waiting to happen but good luck T&M! Sooner or later it's going to bite ya in the arse real good! You asked if I've ever had something blow up like that and I told you never, it's because I cover my arse every single time. I Don't care how good a customer they are, they know the routine. Signed proposal (contract) before every job. But I know, it's different down there!:thumbup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ironranger said:


> The cast repair sounds good. The next job without a quoted amount and signed contract sounds like a disaster waiting to happen but good luck T&M! Sooner or later it's going to bite ya in the arse real good! You asked if I've ever had something blow up like that and I told you never, it's because I cover my arse every single time. I Don't care how good a customer they are, they know the routine. Signed proposal (contract) before every job. But I know, it's different down there!:thumbup:


If you go back and read an earlier post i said I was going to write up a work summary with a price....AND any other work will be billed at 85 and hr per man. Thanks for the concern tho:thumbsup:.
ADD> Its in the flat rate versus hourly fight we are having somewhere:laughing:....i had thought it was on this thread but its not.:thumbup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ironranger said:


> The cast repair sounds good. The next job without a quoted amount and signed contract sounds like a disaster waiting to happen but good luck T&M! Sooner or later it's going to bite ya in the arse real good! You asked if I've ever had something blow up like that and I told you never, it's because I cover my arse every single time. I Don't care how good a customer they are, they know the routine. Signed proposal (contract) before every job. But I know, it's different down there!:thumbup:


I would rather get a signed ESTIMATE.I give him an estimated cost and a description of work and if anything changes as the work progess's I will inform and allow him to inspect the problem and ask question's and get billed at 85 an hour. I take alot of pictures also......I can prove I charge 85 an hour and I can Prove I did the work because I have pictures of the work. In court I will win everytime. I didn't go over to this mans house and do all this work becuase I wanted to JUDGE.....here are the Before and after pics JUDGE and I also have a stack of ald invoices showing I charge 85 and hr. The mans bill will be less than 1,000 anyway or maybe alittle more 1200 or so. Case over I win. The JUDGE will see he was treated fair and got what he is being charged for no if an's or buts about it.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I would rather get a signed ESTIMATE.I give him an estimated cost and a description of work and if anything changes as the work progess's I will inform and allow him to inspect the problem and ask question's and get billed at 85 an hour. I take alot of pictures also......I can prove I charge 85 an hour and I can Prove I did the work because I have pictures of the work. In court I will win everytime. I didn't go over to this mans house and do all this work becuase I wanted to JUDGE.....here are the Before and after pics JUDGE and I also have a stack of ald invoices showing I charge 85 and hr. The mans bill will be less than 1,000 anyway or maybe alittle more 1200 or so. Case over I win. The JUDGE will see he was treated fair and got what he is being charged for no if an's or buts about it.


I wouldn't know anything about a judge or going to court., it's never really crossed my mind. It's not something I worry about because I have it covered. Customers don't sue you when they have a copy of a signed proposal in their hand.:thumbsup:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

The sky is blue......:boxing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ironranger said:


> I wouldn't know anything about a judge or going to court., it's never really crossed my mind. It's not something I worry about because I have it covered. Customers don't sue you when they have a copy of a signed proposal in their hand.:thumbsup:


 Sure they will and somtimes win. Ask around here on the forum. Ask anyone in business. No matter what you do wrong or right you still may end up in court of you get a customer that wants to go! Not your choice. Signed estimate or signed proposal is just as good. call it what you want.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Sure they will and somtimes win. Ask around here on the forum. Ask anyone in business. No matter what you do wrong or right you still may end up in court of you get a customer that wants to go! Not your choice. Signed estimate or signed proposal is just as good. call it what you want.



As I said TM I wouldn't know.:thumbup:


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

*Split Cast Iron Pipe !*



themaster said:


> sure They Will And Somtimes Win. Ask Around Here On The Forum. Ask Anyone In Business. No Matter What You Do Wrong Or Right You Still May End Up In Court Of You Get A Customer That Wants To Go! Not Your Choice. Signed Estimate Or Signed Proposal Is Just As Good. Call It What You Want.


Amen Preach On Brother Plumber !

Been There Done That And Got The T-shirt !

And The Judge Upheld A Handyman's Work Over Me !

I Replaced The Gas Thermostat On A Water Heater For Landlord

Since They Still Had A Problem Instead Of Calling Back They Had

Handy Man Replace With A New Water Heater With Out Permit Or Inspection ! !


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ok check this coppa out......totally screwed!!!!


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Oh and while I was up in the 130+ degree attic replacing it with sch 40 pvc...I had the pleasure of finding this....he says he installed a ceiling fan on the patio.....he was so proud that "HE DID IT HIMSELF". tHIS IS WHAT GETS PEOPLE KILLED OR BURNS THEIR HOUSE DOWN.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Here is some of the replacement...I filled the entire system up until I had the bottom of the tub covered with water...........


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)




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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

What was running through them drains?:blink:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

airgap said:


> What was running through them drains?:blink:


 Sewer gas My brotha......Thats the top of the top thats destroyed not the bottom.....The pic on the blacktop was taken upside down..thats the top of the pipe. The sewer gas was super strong in that house and in the citys main...I could smell it without even opening the manhole cover. made me gag....thats rare for me.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Sewer gas My brotha......Thats the top of the top thats destroyed not the bottom.....The pic on the blacktop was taken upside down..thats the top of the pipe. The sewer gas was super strong in that house and in the citys main...I could smell it without even opening the manhole cover. made me gag....thats rare for me.


Wow! They're probably lucky they didn't get seriously ill, or worse.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I wish I did A.C. work.....as you see he needs some. You can see the pipe in the background. All of this is in the attic.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Is that Duct Tape being used properly? TM would Insurance cover this job?


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Water lines in the attic- I don't think I'll ever get used to seeing that!


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## hepco (Jul 29, 2008)

Why is it when we give an estimate say it may be between $300 and $400 all the HO heard was 300.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

GREENPLUM said:


> Is that Duct Tape being used properly? TM would Insurance cover this job?


 I dont do HVAC and it would be up to the H.O.'s insurance policy. The electrical junction is what concerned me.


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## breid1903 (Feb 8, 2009)

*colgar*

my water lines are in the attic. i live in northern indiana.


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## breid1903 (Feb 8, 2009)

*hepco*

don't give them two numbers. don't give estimates. sell them exacts. :yes:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

breid1903 said:


> don't give them two numbers. don't give estimates. sell them exacts. :yes:


I've been told countless times i got the job because i gave a price range. It makes perfect sense to most educated people that every job and location can be different even though the job description is the same. I feel like i retain customers this way......its all about trust. plenty of times i've given a price range and the invoice ended up on the lower end of that range.......Now do you think that customers trusts me now??? Who do you think that customer would call if they had another problem? Thats how i get customers that dont even ask a price after a few visits...they know they dont need to and they will be treated fair. Everyone has a different way but i've found this way works very well for me.Theres no wrong or right here...only opinions. I've said it before and i'll say it again.."Repeat customers are the best customers". If you build up your repeat business and you do not want to grow anymore...you can almost quit advertising.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

My customers like the flat rate quotes I give them. They know the EXACT price up front before I do the job. It shows professionalism, it shows I know what I'm talking about when I give a quote.
My customers trust my judgement 100% and most of my work is repeat or referral business.
Guess it works both ways doesn't it? In my "opinion", flat rate is the only fair way to charge for service. That's MY opinion.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I usually ask "Do you want a fair price or an exact price becuase I'm not coming out there to look at it and I'm not even coming out there for 50.00 to look at it because some things you still cant see even If I would come there just to look.......so I charge 85.00 and hour to come out and diagnose with a minimum charge of one hour and my times starts when I call you to say "I'm on the way to your house" and ends when I write the total on the invoice. I itemize each piece of material and the price.
...........................................................................................................
Now if they dont understand that....then i do not care to work for them. Nothing's written in stone but thats how i typically operate for simple repair. T&M protect's you two ways....your making money everytime you get in the truck no matter what and if the job is not "as it appears" and when the job takes exploring type work its safer to work by the hour. What if you flat rate to find a gas leak and you "think" its going to take you 1/2 day......you price it.......but it ends up taking 1 whole day??? Now you told them an EXACT price to find the leak. Now does your customer still have an exact price of what you originally told them?


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I usually ask "Do you want a fair price or an exact price becuase I'm not coming out there to look at it and I'm not even coming out there for 50.00 to look at it because some things you still cant see even If I would come there just to look.......so I charge 85.00 and hour to come out and diagnose with a minimum charge of one hour and my times starts when I call you to say "I'm on the way to your house" and ends when I write the total on the invoice. I itemize each piece of material and the price.
> ...........................................................................................................
> Now if they dont understand that....then i do not care to work for them. Nothing's written in stone but thats how i typically operate for simple repair. T&M protect's you two ways....your making money everytime you get in the truck no matter what and if the job is not "as it appears" and when the job takes exploring type work its safer to work by the hour. What if you flat rate to find a gas leak and you "think" its going to take you 1/2 day......you price it.......but it ends up taking 1 whole day??? Now you told them an EXACT price to find the leak. Now does your customer still have an exact price of what you originally told them?


Very good points. I try to give a flat *contract price* on most jobs, but of course SOME jobs have too many unknowns and variables and are better off T&M pricing. I just finished a customized price book that will allow us to price ANY job at T&M and/or contract (flatrate) most jobs. It is the best, most flexible system I have seen yet and I have worked at many companies from the old school T&M shops to the big franchises with their oversized books.
So far, I have only had to do T&M for one job since making the book, it was a difficult slab leak and water line repipe. *T&M was definitely superior on this job as the labor and materials was an unknown until we finished.
However on 90%+ jobs, they are easy to project the cost and I flatrate those. Most customers prefer the flat contract price, they don't want an unknown T&M guesstimate, so we only do T&M if there is no other way to figure it because of unknown variables *(like the slab leak job I mentioned above.)


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

I have never lost money on a flat rate job, ever. And that's in over 6 years of being 100% flat rate.:thumbsup:

Flat rate is fair, honest, and shows consistent professionalism.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Just noticed teh headline in the newspaper in the cabinet."familes adapt to eating." WtH is that about? what is going on in alabama?


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Just noticed teh headline in the newspaper in the cabinet."familes adapt to eating." WtH is that about? what is going on in alabama?


That's strange, I saw a similar headline just a few minutes ago:


*Mother Whales Teach Babies Where To Eat: Can Southern Alabama Whales Adapt If Food Becomes Scarce?:laughing:*


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

ironranger said:


> I have never lost money on a flat rate job, ever. And that's in over 6 years of being 100% flat rate.:thumbsup:
> 
> Flat rate is fair, honest, and shows consistent professionalism.


You never answered TM's question. How do you flatrate a gas leak that is unknown? Or a slab leak? It could take 4 hours or 40 hours, so how do you give a fixed price, when the job itself is unclear due to unknowns?


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

service guy said:


> You never answered TM's question. How do you flatrate a gas leak that is unknown? Or a slab leak? It could take 4 hours or 40 hours, so how do you give a fixed price, when the job itself is unclear due to unknowns?


I think that's the problem, some think you have to flat rate the entire job, once. If I go to a job for something similar or unforeseen I'll flat rate the diagnostics up to a certain amount of time. When we discover what the problem is and how to fix it we will flat rate the repair. Diagnosing a problem is a job in itself in some cases. Most customers understand there is no way to price something that's unforeseen. 

I'm certainly not going to chase leaks all day long with a jackhammer. We'll reroute before ever going there.

We could come up with "what if's" all day long but for me it's never let me down and in my Opinion, flat rate is the only fair way to charge.:laughing:



In most all the expensive flat rate books out there they have a section for diagnosing these problems, though I don't use the books. I have copies of some of these books I got years back to get an idea, interesting to say the least.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I've been told countless times i got the job because i gave a price range. It makes perfect sense to most educated people that every job and location can be different even though the job description is the same. I feel like i retain customers this way......its all about trust. plenty of times i've given a price range and the invoice ended up on the lower end of that range.......Now do you think that customers trusts me now??? Who do you think that customer would call if they had another problem? Thats how i get customers that dont even ask a price after a few visits...they know they dont need to and they will be treated fair. Everyone has a different way but i've found this way works very well for me.Theres no wrong or right here...only opinions. I've said it before and i'll say it again.."Repeat customers are the best customers". If you build up your repeat business and you do not want to grow anymore...you can almost quit advertising.


IMHO when you give a range there is but one number that sticks in the customers mind. I'll stick with the flat rate thanks... :whistling2:


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Redwood said:


> IMHO when you give a range there is but one number that sticks in the customers mind. I'll stick with the flat rate thanks... :whistling2:



That is so true! Then what happens when you give that price range and oops, it's going to be higher? With flat rate you're giving a price to do a certain task and that's it, nothing more. Doesn't matter what else you find, if they want additional work then they sign another proposal, simple as that.


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