# Stainless, copper, or ridgid



## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

What do you use for your water heater supplies?

A rep gave me these at the phcc trade show recently and I liked them a lot. They are die electric no kink if you even tried. I bent them trying to kink them and they won't like the copper ones do. Oh and they are way more inexpensive!


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## highpoint (Mar 3, 2009)

Hate them.
They look like the Junkers you ripped out but different colour.
I always go copper. Well, almost always.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

I'm a hard copper pipe plumber.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Hard pipe in copper here.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

Qball415 said:


> What do you use for your water heater supplies?
> 
> A rep gave me these at the phcc trade show recently and I liked them a lot. They are die electric no kink if you even tried. I bent them trying to kink them and they won't like the copper ones do. Oh and they are way more inexpensive!


I like the solder joints on the relief valve pipe.

I would of changed all that crap, & put a couple of chrome escuthceons, on pipes coming out of wall, a new shut off, & piped in solid copper, but I know price dictates what you can do.


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

Just bout some of the brass craft s.s. from fergys. They were the same price or a bit cheaper than the siox chief copper ones.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

are direct connections with PEX considered " Hard Piped " ?


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## PrecisePlumbing (Jan 31, 2011)

Hard copper brazed every time


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Qball415 said:


> What do you use for your water heater supplies?
> 
> A rep gave me these at the phcc trade show recently and I liked them a lot. They are die electric no kink if you even tried. I bent them trying to kink them and they won't like the copper ones do. Oh and they are way more inexpensive!


I use the Brass Craft stainless ones. 

Stay away from the Ferguson Pro-Flo stainless ones -- The beveled black washers are half the thickness of the Brass Craft ones and very easy to split or compress.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

GREENPLUM said:


> are direct connections with PEX considered " Hard Piped " ?


:no::no::no::no::no::no:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Everybody comfortable? Have a seat......it's RANT time!


WHY IN GODS NAME AND *HELLS DAMNATION *WOULD A *LICENSED PROFESSIONAL* SLAP THOSE *ABORTIONS *ON ANYTHING? DO YOU WANT YOUR CUSTOMER TO BE ABLE TO RUN DOWN TO THE CHEEEEEPO DEEEPOT NEXT TIME HIS WATER HEATER CRAPS THE BED AND CHANGE IT HIMSELF? SURE YOU DO, YOU MUST, WHY ELSE IN HELL WOULD YOU MAKE CHANGING IT THAT FREEEEEEEEEEKING EASY FOR HIM?????????

*EARN YOUR LICENSE AND HARD PIPE THE DAMN THING !* 

Ok, you can relax now, I'm done.......................For* NOW!

By the way. If my salesman had pushed that crap on me I would have wrapped them around his scrawney neck and shown him the door but by now he knows better.
*


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Qball415 said:


> What do you use for your water heater supplies?
> 
> A rep gave me these at the phcc trade show recently and I liked them a lot. They are die electric no kink if you even tried. I bent them trying to kink them and they won't like the copper ones do. Oh and they are way more inexpensive!


Sorry still lools like crap... but will they last is another question


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

They make them with sharkbites already on them for all the hacks!:furious:

I can't believe plumbers would use these!:furious:

Rant off!


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I have a peg board display case in the classroom that has examples of things that I think are absolute crap and should never be used by professional plumbers. Stainless supplies are in the case :thumbsup:


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

I would have a real hard time handing someone a plumbers bill after putting a halfass solution like that on! IMHO that is far from proffesional!


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## bartnc37 (Feb 24, 2009)

NH you give the average H.O. far to much credit. Are there a few around the could and would change their own w.h., sure, but the vast majority wouldn't even try. W.H. are big, they're heavy, and most the homes I go to the owners can't figure out how to change a toilet flapper much less pull the w.h.


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

Very hacky!!! Red tag!!


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Everybody comfortable? Have a seat......it's RANT time!
> 
> WHY IN GODS NAME AND HELLS DAMNATION WOULD A LICENSED PROFESSIONAL SLAP THOSE ABORTIONS ON ANYTHING? DO YOU WANT YOUR CUSTOMER TO BE ABLE TO RUN DOWN TO THE CHEEEEEPO DEEEPOT NEXT TIME HIS WATER HEATER CRAPS THE BED AND CHANGE IT HIMSELF? SURE YOU DO, YOU MUST, WHY ELSE IN HELL WOULD YOU MAKE CHANGING IT THAT FREEEEEEEEEEKING EASY FOR HIM?????????
> 
> ...


We live in earthquake country! Code here!!!


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

What does the code _specifically_ say? I am asking because all the earthquake precautions that I can find in California plumbing code refer only to securing the tank. Nowhere can I find where it says that flexible piping has to be installed.


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## Bulldog Plumbing (Nov 9, 2008)

PrecisePlumbing said:


> Hard copper brazed every time


You braze your 3/4 water heater lines?


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Makes it real hard to check and change Bradford anode rods if it's hard piped. You want your customer's tank to fail early?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

In 35 years I have changed exactly 2 anode rods and one of those was to control the odor. Yes, yes I do want that tank to fail. I sell tanks.


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## Joeypipes 23 (Feb 2, 2011)

I always use dialectric unions by copper on inlet and outlet and reconnect to existing water lines...looks very neat and professional


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> In 35 years I have changed exactly 2 anode rods and one of those was to control the odor. Yes, yes I do want that tank to fail. I sell tanks.


I got ya beat, I changed 3 in 33 yrs. All due to rotten egg smell.
Think about it, ..... how could anyone ever have such a boring life, that they would sit there & say, hey lets change our anode rod today.:whistling2:


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## Abel Plumber (Sep 3, 2011)

I prefer to hard pipe with dielectric unions. But in certain circumstances ive had to use the flexs. I dont like how much the ss flexs cut down the water flow and they do look hacktastic. My boss bought a set with the sharkbite end just to tick me off, If he ever made me use them id walk.


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

What do you guys do that are working with pvc for the cold and cpvc for the hot ?


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## Joeypipes 23 (Feb 2, 2011)

playme1979 said:


> What do you guys do that are working with pvc for the cold and cpvc for the hot ?


Ugh I can't even imagine the lack of skill PVC requires..I know its cheap/quick etc but anyone can do it smh


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

playme1979 said:


> What do you guys do that are working with pvc for the cold and cpvc for the hot ?


I would tell them to tear all that junk out, & install copper.Otherwise, I'm on to the next call.

Thankfully I rarely run into CPVC around here, & never run into PVC, for domestic water.

Besides, if I did run into CPVC, it would probably crack, & break.:laughing:

Ok, Ok, I know some Floridians & others have to use it, due to water conditions, but I don't have to use it, so I don't, & never will. Thats why I love to hate that garbage.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

nhmaster3015 said:


> What does the code _specifically_ say? I am asking because all the earthquake precautions that I can find in California plumbing code refer only to securing the tank. Nowhere can I find where it says that flexible piping has to be installed.


I don't think it is specifically called out, but it does make practical sense to use flexible lines in earthquake prone areas of the country. Earthquake straps will prevent a HW Tank from toppling over, but they do not prevent it from swaying side to side, particularly the tall skinny tanks.

I do hard pipe tanks from time to time, but only if it has wide footprint (70 gallons and up). And when I do hard pipe a tank, I always use dielectric unions. I saw a lot of hard piped HW Tanks when I was working in the Gulf States after Hurricanes Andrew and Katrina, and pretty much every single one I saw had some degree/level of electrolysis at the nipple/FIP connection. What I found interesting was that most of the pitting I saw was on the galvanized dielectric nipples instead of on the FIP's. I imagine regional water conditions had a lot to do with that phenomenon.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Don The Plumber said:


> Ok, Ok, I know some Floridians & others have to use it, due to water conditions, but I don't have to use it, so I don't, & never will. Thats why I love to hate that garbage.


I don't understand why anyone would make a conscious decision to use CPVC or PVC for domestic water piping when PEX has been proven to be a superior product.

PEX (Uponor) is the only plastic piping system I would put in my own home.


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

I asked because I run across cpvc and pvc alot out in the east texas area and I'm not going to reinvent the wheel by telling the owner they need to install copper just because it is better . You would be laughed out of the house with the offer of a boot up your ass.Everyone knows copper is better there's no dispute there. Pex is better than plastic no dispute there , but try telling some of these east texan's that and when your working with plastic you don't have much of a choice other than using flex lines .


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

Joeypipes 23 said:


> Ugh I can't even imagine the lack of skill PVC requires..I know its cheap/quick etc but anyone can do it smh



This is the reason why its found a lot in east Texas , people out there are very capable and believe in doing a lot of their own plumbing . Nothing wrong with that other than when its time to repair it.


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## PrecisePlumbing (Jan 31, 2011)

Bulldog Plumbing said:


> You braze your 3/4 water heater lines?


We braze all copper here. Every bit. Or propress


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Is Houston considered part of east Texas or just east of Houston?


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

I don't know anything about east of Houston, I'm talking about the east of Dallas ,Tx area. What makes you bring up Houston ?


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

playme1979 said:


> I don't know anything about east of Houston, I'm talking about the east of Dallas ,Tx area. What makes you bring up Houston ?


That's where the Texan pockets of Liberalism are.

For better or worse.


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## Joeypipes 23 (Feb 2, 2011)

playme1979 said:


> This is the reason why its found a lot in east Texas , people out there are very capable and believe in doing a lot of their own plumbing . Nothing wrong with that other than when its time to repair it.


Is there any regulations on licensing out by you?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

playme1979 said:


> I don't know anything about east of Houston, I'm talking about the east of Dallas ,Tx area. What makes you bring up Houston ?


Been there before and seen the plumbing work there done... Clear Lake area.. however, Home Depot are the same all over with the same answer " if you don't see it on the shelf, they don't make them"


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## Abel Plumber (Sep 3, 2011)

playme1979 said:


> What do you guys do that are working with pvc for the cold and cpvc for the hot ?


I dont... I get it as close to the wall as possible, then hook up with copper. The less plastic I see the better.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

PrecisePlumbing said:


> We braze all copper here. Every bit. Or propress


Where are you?


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Don The Plumber said:


> I got ya beat, I changed 3 in 33 yrs. All due to rotten egg smell.
> Think about it, ..... how could anyone ever have such a boring life, that they would sit there & say, hey lets change our anode rod today.:whistling2:


I did 3 just today and each one comes with a credit voucher discounting a new tank install. The difference is that I won't be shopped and the homeowner will avoid a flood.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

If cpvc is stubbed out then we just hard pipe the heater with it. Personly I hate cpvc and the only reason why it's used here is because it's cheap and anyone with a can of flowgaurd glue and a hacksaw can install it. I've seen bad water effect cpvc too, high lvls of chlorine and such can make it very brittle.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

I have used the Brasscraft stainless flexes and for what they are, they're fine. The supply house was carrying Rino brand flexes for a while and the Brasscrafts are better by far. 

Around here I just can't be competitive and hard pipe water heaters. As I understand the CPC, there's no mention that water heaters must be hard piped. I hard pipe anything 75 gallons or larger but I just can't sell a 50 gallon water heater install for $1,000 or more. I hear guys talk about $1,000 electric w/h installs and it blows my mind. Not here!! I wish I could camp out and spend 3+ hours putting in a water heater, hard piping the water and gas, but I just can't. I wouldn't get a single one of them.






Paul


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

rocksteady said:


> I have used the Brasscraft stainless flexes and for what they are, they're fine. The supply house was carrying Rino brand flexes for a while and the Brasscrafts are better by far.
> 
> Around here I just can't be competitive and hard pipe water heaters. As I understand the CPC, there's no mention that water heaters must be hard piped. I hard pipe anything 75 gallons or larger but I just can't sell a 50 gallon water heater install for $1,000 or more. I hear guys talk about $1,000 electric w/h installs and it blows my mind. Not here!! I wish I could camp out and spend 3+ hours putting in a water heater, hard piping the water and gas, but I just can't. I wouldn't get a single one of them.
> 
> ...



I've never installed one for less. Then again, I'm in orange county and only worked for companies having 10+ trucks on the road. 

What do you include with your installs for your price? What is your company warranty? Any follow up service?


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## Joeypipes 23 (Feb 2, 2011)

JK949 said:


> I've never installed one for less. Then again, I'm in orange county and only worked for companies having 10+ trucks on the road.
> 
> What do you include with your installs for your price? What is your company warranty? Any follow up service?


I get 1400 for a 50 gallon and that's in bklyn


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Joeypipes 23 said:


> I get 1400 for a 50 gallon and that's in bklyn


I still got ya beat.


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## Joeypipes 23 (Feb 2, 2011)

JK949 said:


> I still got ya beat.


LOL highway robbery LOL good for you though


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

usually hard pipe. at 4:30 on Friday Sharkbite tank connectors. always install a vacuum breaker too!


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

I'm about at 1350$ for 50 gal A.O Smith natural gas W.H. 
Included is earthquake strapping, ball valve, supplies and disposal and installation of new unit. With 24 month company warranty and 6 year manufacturer warranty. 
Pan is extra and if flue is needed to be changed is extra also. I almost always use the same gas full port valve and supply. If they want that changed that's extra also. No hidden fees everything is upfront with me.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Qball415 said:


> I'm about at 1350$ for 50 gal A.O Smith natural gas W.H.
> Included is earthquake strapping, ball valve, supplies and disposal and installation of new unit. With 24 month company warranty and 6 year manufacturer warranty.
> Pan is extra and if flue is needed to be changed is extra also. I almost always use the same gas full port valve and supply. If they want that changed that's extra also. No hidden fees everything is upfront with me.


How much are your heaters?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Boy you guys work cheap. We get 11 hundred for a 40 gallon electric and we always hard pipe. I'm trying to figure out how hard piping a water heater is going to make the price higher than the competition. The ss flexi's are 10 times more expensive that a couple feet of copper and a few elbows and it it's taking you more than a half hour you need to bone up on your fittment skills.


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## Chandog (Nov 22, 2010)

I agree with you NH. Hard piping is the only way to go. It just looks nice and professional like a real plumber did it. If you don't take pride in your work then what's the point!


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## Chandog (Nov 22, 2010)

By the way we get 1250 for 50 gal elec. pan, valve, vacuum breaker, expansion tank, and permit are all extra.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

It would definitely take me more than 30 minutes for most water heaters just because they've been flexed for so long, nobody spends any time or energy pulling the water lines in a convenient spot. If it's already hard piped, it doesn't take any time at all to cut the heater loose and rebuild the copper. A perfect example was the 50 l/p heater I put in last week. Both the hot and cold water lines came through the ceiling of the w/h closet at the back left corner, about 2" apart from each other, with 24" flexes to the heater. It's never a matter of a pair of unions, elbows and couplings if the house is over 15 years old. The cheapness and laziness runs deep for decades here. 

A typical 50 n/g heater from me gets a ball valve, earthquake straps, flex lines and whatever misc. fittings to reconnect the t&p. I get less than $950 for them unless they need a pan, gas flex or valve or reworking of the flue. There is NO WAY IN HELL I could get $1400 for an electric water heater around here, let alone a gas one. A buddy of mine called to double check his price on a 75 gallon he was quoting for the CHP here because they said it was too much. He was about where I've found I need to be at around $1300. They thought it was too expensive. This is what we're dealing with here.





Paul


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Joeypipes 23 said:


> LOL highway robbery LOL good for you though


Inaccurate statement, you have no idea what my packages include or follow up service.

If you want to make the most money, you have to do more than anybody else.


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## Joeypipes 23 (Feb 2, 2011)

JK949 said:


> Inaccurate statement, you have no idea what my packages include or follow up service.
> 
> If you want to make the most money, you have to do more than anybody else.


OK so what do you give that justifies your price...I'm one of the more expensive guys around here...we drain old heater remove and reconnect all for around 1500 ball valve flue pipe replaced not included


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

JK949 said:


> I've never installed one for less. Then again, I'm in orange county and only worked for companies having 10+ trucks on the road.
> 
> What do you include with your installs for your price? What is your company warranty? Any follow up service?





JK949 said:


> Inaccurate statement, you have no idea what my packages include or follow up service.
> 
> If you want to make the most money, you have to do more than anybody else.


 
I showed you mine, let's hear what you can get in the OC for $1500. 

I'm not slamming your prices, just currious. I'm guessing a return trip and maybe an anode replacement the following year? 




Paul


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

ChrisConnor said:


> How much are your heaters?


P.M sent


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Qball415 said:


> I'm about at 1350$ for 50 gal A.O Smith natural gas W.H.
> Included is earthquake strapping, ball valve, supplies and disposal and installation of new unit. With 24 month company warranty and 6 year manufacturer warranty.
> Pan is extra and if flue is needed to be changed is extra also. I almost always use the same gas full port valve and supply. If they want that changed that's extra also. No hidden fees everything is upfront with me.


What are your expansion tank requirements? 

They're required on all gas fired vessels up here and on electrics in select jurisdictions.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> What are your expansion tank requirements?
> 
> They're required on all gas fired vessels up here and on electrics in select jurisdictions.


 If the water meter have check valve, exp tank are required, dependings on the city own plumber's experince, if he have no boiler experenice, no tank required.. its a f**king joke that they go by this.. one town think a 2 ft, 2" stand pipe at meter is good enough for exp tank.


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> What are your expansion tank requirements?
> 
> They're required on all gas fired vessels up here and on electrics in select jurisdictions.


Hahaha nope no expansion tank requirements...


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## Joeypipes 23 (Feb 2, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> If the water meter have check valve, exp tank are required, dependings on the city own plumber's experince, if he have no boiler experenice, no tank required.. its a f**king joke that they go by this.. one town think a 2 ft, 2" stand pipe at meter is good enough for exp tank.


Your right it becomes a closed system and expansion tank is required,


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Qball415 said:


> P.M sent


Your mailbox is full.:blink:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Qball415 said:


> Hahaha nope no expansion tank requirements...


I really find that very surprising.

Are your water Districts/Purveyors on the backflow rampage yet?

Ours are going batshiot crazy up here.


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> Your mailbox is full.:blink:


Cleared.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

rocksteady said:


> I showed you mine, let's hear what you can get in the OC for $1500.
> 
> I'm not slamming your prices, just currious. I'm guessing a return trip and maybe an anode replacement the following year?
> 
> ...


Every heater is a Bradford White
New ball valve
flexes
flue
straps
gas flex
sediment trap
I change out old gas valves and extend them to a usable location
drain pan with heater sitting on bricks
1 year maintenance included:
2 plumbing service: water heater flush, anode check, pressure check, home inspection
2 HVAC tuneups

Package 1: 6 year tank warranty
1 year installation
Package 2: 6 year tank
6 year installation
Package 3: 12 year tank
12 year installation
5 years maintenance
2 anode rods


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## robwilliams (May 6, 2011)

We get about $1,500.00 also. That includes: Bradford White or A.O. Smith 50 gal. gas heater, ball valve, expansion tank, hard copper pipe (proudly soldered with Staybrite 8, no sharkbite for us), flue pipe (most have to be changed over to 4 inch), gas cock, all gas piping is screw pipe, (I do not like CSST). All of our water heater installs (regardless of location) get a drain pan underneath. 6 year tank warranty, 1 year labor. We are considered on the high side of the pricing scale, but, we also get $4,800-$5,200 for an average residential boiler replacement.


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Got a call to replace "hard piped heater" inspector failed final inspection to home that was being sold due to seismic issues. This is what I found when I arrived. Yup 1/2" supplies and 3/8" relief line.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Qball415 said:


> Got a call to replace "hard piped heater" inspector failed final inspection to home that was being sold due to seismic issues. This is what I found when I arrived. Yup 1/2" supplies and 3/8" relief line.


Waay back when.. cold water was on left side, hot on the right with 1/2 inch piping.


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## Narin (May 2, 2012)

It's not hard to use copper for something like that.


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## PrecisePlumbing (Jan 31, 2011)

love2surf927 said:


> Where are you?


The great continent of australia


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I still have not got an answer on that California code question. Are flex supplies required by code or not? I'm guessing not. Plumbers just use them because they either didn't read or interpret the code correctly, or more likely are lazy which as was said earlier here is a problem that runs rampant in this trade. It runs rampant because there are few checks and balances. Homeowners for the most part have no idea what is required or what constitutes professional quality work, and inspectors are only able to pass or fail based on meeting code and marginally, what constitutes "workmanlike manner" which is highly subjective depending on the inspector and quite often on the amount of cash left in the envelope for him. So that only leaves pricks like me and a few of you also to continually rag on the lazy hacks that never should have been given a license in the first place and hopefully if we rag on them enough they will either go away or smarten the F up and start doing work that they and the trade can be proud of. :thumbsup:

And don't ever tell me that your market is so competitive that you can't afford to use quality materials and do quality work. That's a cop out and we all know it.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

JK949 said:


> Makes it real hard to check and change Bradford anode rods if it's hard piped. You want your customer's tank to fail early?


I only install Bradfords and our company performs heater maintenance. The anode rod protects the heater tank. You can't check the rod on smaller Bradfords and older A.O. Smiths if the heater has been hard piped. If Bradford used a hex head, it would be a different story. 

Fortunately, most of my customers see the value in longer intallation warranties and know that we will return to service their unit. So if failure looks possible, we can replace flexes before a flood occurs.

Nothing looks better than clean, straight, freshly installed rigid pipe for any use.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

JK949 said:


> I only install Bradfords and our company performs heater maintenance. The anode rod protects the heater tank. You can't check the rod on smaller Bradfords and older A.O. Smiths if the heater has been hard piped. If Bradford used a hex head, it would be a different story.
> 
> Fortunately, most of my customers see the value in longer intallation warranties and know that we will return to service their unit. So if failure looks possible, we can replace flexes before a flood occurs.
> 
> Nothing looks better than clean, straight, freshly installed rigid pipe for any use.


So are you saying you like hard pipe, or do you like flex connecters?:confused1:


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

I use flexes but appreciate the look of rigid.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I still have not got an answer on that California code question. Are flex supplies required by code or not? I'm guessing not. Plumbers just use them because they either didn't read or interpret the code correctly, or more likely are lazy which as was said earlier here is a problem that runs rampant in this trade. It runs rampant because there are few checks and balances. Homeowners for the most part have no idea what is required or what constitutes professional quality work, and inspectors are only able to pass or fail based on meeting code and marginally, what constitutes "workmanlike manner" which is highly subjective depending on the inspector and quite often on the amount of cash left in the envelope for him. So that only leaves pricks like me and a few of you also to continually rag on the lazy hacks that never should have been given a license in the first place and hopefully if we rag on them enough they will either go away or smarten the F up and start doing work that they and the trade can be proud of. :thumbsup:
> 
> And don't ever tell me that your market is so competitive that you can't afford to use quality materials and do quality work. That's a cop out and we all know it.


All I could find was this from the 
*Department of General Services *​*
Division of the State Architect 
*​I can tell you this, when I was plumbing in California ( 16 years ) You would fail EVERY inspection if you hard piped a water heater.

http://www.seismic.ca.gov/HOG/waterheaterbracing_08-11-04.pdf

*Introduction​*During past earthquakes, water heaters have moved or tipped over if they were not securely anchored to adjacent walls or floors. This movement has resulted in gas line or water line leaks, and electrical wiring damage. Gas line leaks and damaged electrical wiring pose health and fire hazards, and water line leaks can cause significant and costly property damage. 
California law (Health & Safety Code Sections 19210-19217) requires: 
• Any new or replacement water heater sold in California on or after July 1, 1991 be braced, anchored or strapped when installed to resist falling or horizontal displacement due to earthquake forces. 
• The seller of any real property containing a water heater to certify in writing to the purchaser that water heater bracing requirements have been met. 
The Division of the State Architect (DSA) has prepared these guidelines, which illustrate several earthquake bracing systems for typical (30 to 75 gallon capacity) residential water heater installations. These guidelines meet the bracing requirements of California’s building and plumbing codes, which require that a minimum of two sets of bracing straps be provided to secure the water heater against movement. 
These guidelines were developed for water heaters with a capacity of 52 gallons or less, and may also be utilized for water heaters with a capacity of up to 75 gallons, provided an additional (third) set of bracing straps is provided at mid-height of the water heater. Earthquake bracing details for water heaters with a capacity greater than 75 gallons should be approved by the local building department prior to installation. 
*Limitations: 
*These guidelines do not address water heater installations in an attic or other unusual locations (such as a water heater not located adjacent to a wall). For those cases, the local building department must be consulted to determine requirements for earthquake bracing. 
These guidelines address only code requirements for earthquake bracing, and do not address other plumbing code requirements (such as protection from damage, venting, clearances from combustible materials, and combustion air). Clearances of water heaters from adjacent walls must meet minimum requirements specified by the manufacturer and the local building department. 
*Note: 
*DSA strongly recommends that code-compliant *flexible *connectors be provided between the water heater and any water, gas, and electrical lines.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I still have not got an answer on that California code question. Are flex supplies required by code or not? I'm guessing not.


I responded.

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/stainless-copper-ridgid-18580/#post268948


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Here's some info...www.falconstainless.com
look into the stainless site you may learn something about living in a different region and why we use flex water supply lines here.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> And don't ever tell me that your market is so competitive that you can't afford to use quality materials and do quality work. That's a cop out and we all know it.


 
Really? Come on out here and try and sell a 40 n/g for more than $1,000. You would be run out of town. Try to explain to a homeowner why you need to hardpipe the water and gas when "it's been like that for the last 20 years and 3 water heaters". 

I've never been back East but I have this vision of the trades being more established and respected there vs. anywhere else in the country. California is a laughing stock on this board for many reasons, yet I'm supposed to single handedly change the way things have been done here for decades or I'm copping out? I have literally NEVER seen a hard piped gas line to a water heater here and have probably seen 4 hard piped w/h's that are 50 gallons or smaller. Am I supposed to take on this crusade pro-bono? I do the best quality work I am capable of with the materials that I can afford to work with. 






Paul


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Questions from the area where the land is too flat and have torando issues.. why in earthqauke prone area are too focus ton water heater unit? Yes I believe they should be strapped to prevent tipping over, but what about other plumbing fixtures that can can water and gas damage? I think the foremost protection from qauke damage is at the gas and water meter as will the electric disconnect box???


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> Questions from the area where the land is too flat and have torando issues.. why in earthqauke prone area are too focus ton water heater unit? Yes I believe they should be strapped to prevent tipping over, but what about other plumbing fixtures that can can water and gas damage? I think the foremost protection from qauke damage is at the gas and water meter as will the electric disconnect box???


We have plenty of preventative measures...
Gas main lines outside we use Saco gas breakers.
Water heaters use gas flexes and water supply flexes along with straps to hold heater in place.
Almost every gas fixture in dwelling has a gas breaker installed as well.
S.S water supply lines are also in place at all fixtures.
List goes on and on. Yet we're considered hacks and cheap because we use these products. I respectfully disagree.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Qball415 said:


> We have plenty of preventative measures...
> Gas main lines outside we use Saco gas breakers.
> Water heaters use gas flexes and water supply flexes along with straps to hold heater in place.
> Almost every gas fixture in dwelling has a gas breaker installed as well.
> ...


Thanks for filling me in, what about at the electric meter/disconnect box as well at water meter?


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Qball415 said:


> Got a call to replace "hard piped heater" inspector failed final inspection to home that was being sold due to seismic issues. This is what I found when I arrived. Yup 1/2" supplies and 3/8" relief line.


Wow what really pisses me off here is the relief! How could anybody be so lazy and believe that restricting a relief is a good idea! Other things as mentioned bug me but damn that just...:furious:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Thanks for filling me in, what about at the electric meter/disconnect box as well at water meter?


There is only so much you can do do to protect against seismic damage.

I think the seismic codes currently in effect are more about protecting property and life than they are about protecting services/utilities.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

rocksteady said:


> Really? Come on out here and try and sell a 40 n/g for more than $1,000. You would be run out of town. Try to explain to a homeowner why you need to hardpipe the water and gas when "it's been like that for the last 20 years and 3 water heaters".
> 
> I've never been back East but I have this vision of the trades being more established and respected there vs. anywhere else in the country. California is a laughing stock on this board for many reasons, yet I'm supposed to single handedly change the way things have been done here for decades or I'm copping out? I have literally NEVER seen a hard piped gas line to a water heater here and have probably seen 4 hard piped w/h's that are 50 gallons or smaller. Am I supposed to take on this crusade pro-bono? I do the best quality work I am capable of with the materials that I can afford to work with.
> 
> ...



I could, after I explained what I would do to make ONE heater last 20 years instead of 3.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

I have always hard piped when I lived in DC. Here in the Pacific NW 99% use the copper water flex. They even allow flexible gas lines on everything.


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## Joeypipes 23 (Feb 2, 2011)

MTDUNN said:


> I have always hard piped when I lived in DC. Here in the Pacific NW 99% use the copper water flex. They even allow flexible gas lines on everything.


I know its a lot easier and cost effective..but soldering/brazing is a skill and a craft which is something a h/o can't do..even if it was legal here in nyc...I doubt I'd do it unless had no choice...I take pride in my work and especially neat soldering work


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Agree to that. I am part of the 1%. I prefab copper adapters on 2' sections 1 on each side. Keep 6 or 8 in the van all the time. Cut in halve per WH and use dielectric unions


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## pipe doc (Dec 26, 2010)

i have had problems with dielectrics rusting closed in 2-3 years. I've tried different brands etc.. None have worked. the SS flex is the only connection that has survived our aggressive water on W/H. I wonder if the dielectrics are made cheaply as this has only bin a problem for a few years. i prefer to hard pipe.


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## Joeypipes 23 (Feb 2, 2011)

pipe doc said:


> i have had problems with dielectrics rusting closed in 2-3 years. I've tried different brands etc.. None have worked. the SS flex is the only connection that has survived our aggressive water on W/H. I wonder if the dielectrics are made cheaply as this has only bin a problem for a few years. i prefer to hard pipe.


I'd assume water quality is a factor...here in NYC we have pretty good water...I also use dialetric unions but find when I remove copper female adapters off old dialetric nipples all caked up inside with sediment


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Joeypipes 23 said:


> I'd assume water quality is a factor...here in NYC we have pretty good water...I also use dialetric unions but find when I remove copper female adapters off old dialetric nipples all caked up inside with sediment



Dialectic nipple is a misnomer. It's still steel and it it is still incompatible with copper.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

It would probably help if you guys would add 6" of brass nipple/reducer/coupling combo between the steel and copper.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

*And they have the balzak to call us hacks.*



JK949 said:


> It would probably help if you guys would add 6" of brass nipple/reducer/coupling combo between the steel and copper.


But they don't.


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## Joeypipes 23 (Feb 2, 2011)

JK949 said:


> It would probably help if you guys would add 6" of brass nipple/reducer/coupling combo between the steel and copper.


I now only use dialetric by copper unions


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Joeypipes 23 said:


> I know its a lot easier and cost effective..but soldering/brazing is a skill and a craft which is something a h/o can't do..even if it was legal here in nyc...I doubt I'd do it unless had no choice...I take pride in my work and especially neat soldering work


Lets see some photos.


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## Joeypipes 23 (Feb 2, 2011)

qball415 said:


> lets see some photos.


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Could clean up your joints little better.


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## Joeypipes 23 (Feb 2, 2011)

Qball415 said:


> Could clean up your joints little better.


Not sure what your looking at but they look good to me


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