# Beware of Expensive TO_TO Toilets...



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

anyone ever tangle with any special Toto toilet lately...??

we had a special order *one peice Toto handicapped* toilet $650 that we got into a mess with last week.

it comes with a special plastic mounting flange that
is supposed to bolt down to the flange on the floor with a snout that the toilet is supposed to snap into....it has a little rubber gasket for a seal..

be warned before you try to install one that the footprint for that toilet is huge .. 

1.the trim on the back wall was going to have to be all cut out to the drywall... approx one foot wide
2 a water line in the floor was gonna have to be moved
3. the special mounting flange was gonna need a better flange installed in the floor...:no:

I underestimated the job and before getting into a god awful mess , we apologised to the customer , put the old toilet back in, and got the hell out of there.....:yes:

we got lucky and our supply house took back the toilet in a opened box....

Never Again....will I fight one of those beasts

there ought to be a warning lable on the box to totally measure and check out the whole plumbing situation before estimateing or installing one of these monsters


http://www.totousa.com/Portals/0/ProductDownloads/SS-00401_MS964214CEFG.pdf


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Been there a couple years ago.

I check cut sheets on everything now.

You run a gas pipe to a range lately? You get like 6 sq. inches to put your pipe in an exact location.


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## jc-htownplumber (Feb 29, 2012)

I installed plenty of those no problem. Yes most of the water lines need to be moved but that's about all the problems I ever ran into


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

Need to get spec sheets online for those, ran into a similar problem with cimmaron toilets and the like, started roughing the flange out a half an inch more and no more problems with them.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)




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## suzie (Sep 1, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> anyone ever tangle with any special Toto toilet lately...??
> 
> we had a special order *one peice Toto handicapped* toilet $650 that we got into a mess with last week.
> 
> ...


All skirted toilets have a larger footprint including kohlers meaning all water lines need to be moved. I learned in the last few months with all the new products you need to look at the cut sheets before giving a quote


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I was in the same boat mark was. Existing toilet. (Customer ordered it, unbeknownst to me, and asked me to install it.) No access from below. Water line through floor. Tile floor. 

All new roughs thru the floor are 6 back and 8 1/2 over. Used to be 6 and 6.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

We install these all the time for a certain customer down here . They either go with wall mount flush valve or these . typical rough in . If you would have ordered the 10" rough it would have saved half the trouble.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

504Plumber said:


> Need to get spec sheets online for those, ran into a similar problem with cimmaron toilets and the like, started roughing the flange out a half an inch more and no more problems with them.


 


Well, that is all fine and dandy on a home where it can be roughed in correctly from the get go........ but retrofitting them in an older home can turn into a total mess.....

I turned down someone who had 2 of those Totos. to install today 

He got them from some discount plumbing liquidator and wanted me to install them.... *for $150 each..*cause that is what the folks at Lowes charges......:laughing:

he told me that they had cove base tile in the bathroom, and I just could not make him understand that the tile might need to be removed ....

I told him its time and material, he would have to pay for any water line moves, and flange issues that we might run into...... gave him a minimum price of $375 each

I eventually passed him on to one of my special plumbing competitors in town....

let them lose their ass on these :thumbup:


I pity anyone who will have to re-set one of these pigs some day
due to a flange leaking......


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

jc-htownplumber said:


> I installed plenty of those no problem. Yes most of the water lines need to be moved but that's about all the problems I ever ran into


 
as problems go, 

that can turn out to be a pretty big problem


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

I have not installed one of those yet. Thanks for the heads up.


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## jc-htownplumber (Feb 29, 2012)

Master Mark said:


> as problems go,
> 
> that can turn out to be a pretty big problem


I understand that I just never experience that much trouble installing one of these toilets. Granted I don't understand why the design change but they flush good


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

I had the same experience too. Customer called me on a Friday to install his floor model toilet. I show up at about 3:30 Friday afternoon thinking I'll slam the toilet in and leave.......when I arrive, I ask him where's the flange? Of course my customer has no idea what I'm talking about, so at about 4:30 ish I go to the supply house that sold him the toilet to get the mounting flange so I could set this wonderfully over-engineered toilet.

This was actually a re-model I was doing and my customer was supplying all his own fixtures.

Note the sweat stop I installed, no compression for me when I can install a sweat-stop.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

The Toto just barely fit.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

was it a 12" or 10" rough , good install .


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Nothing like flushing a deuce through 2"..


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> The Toto just barely fit.


that is one tight slut puppy all the way around...

you still h ad a good half inch of play to the wall..
but if there had been some sort of fancy tile floor moulding on that floor, I think you would have been screwed....


You had a very solid floor to mount that flange down to ..... something un-even or partially rotten I could see big troubles ,,,,..


and I wonder what would happen if someone who did not know any better ran a toilet auger down through 
that 2 inch throat??? 

would it or could it get stuck or break that plastic flange????


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> *that is one tight slut puppy all the way around...*


 






If you look at my picture of the Toto, note the handle on the sweat stop. In order to open that angle stop, I had to remove the handle because it was hitting the porcelain bowl.....:laughing:..good thing the inspector didn't bend over and try to open and close the angle stop or he might have failed me for that. 

My vote is the Toto with that over-engineered design is a pain in the rearend if the water line is roughed-in too far behind the toilet. Just the extra work of installing that flange-contraption is enough to make me charge alot more to install those.


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## antiCon (Jun 15, 2012)

toto pacifica... must disassemble whole toilet to change the fillvalve


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## droptopgt (Dec 17, 2008)

I had to install 5 Toto toilets in a renovation. I don't know what type of tile was on the floor but I had brand new bosche tile bits and it was taking me 1 hour per toilet just to drill the holes for the base. I prefer 'normal' toilets...


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

Get the 10" rough in and you shouldn't have a issue. I always change the stops to 1/4 turns. Installed a few of them and no real issues.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

By the way, the first one I installed, I put that cheap ass flange on backwards, drilled the holes in the wrong spot.:laughing:

And, when they stop up, they leak like a sieve from that rubber seal:yes:


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

Are you talking about the UniFit flange? Anyways, some ToTo's can be tricky. If the customer wants a ToTo installed, the normal rate we charge for a conventional removal & installation on a suitable flange may no longer apply.

If you want a good headache, go out and play around with certain ToTo models, especially if you never have before.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

RealLivePlumber said:


> By the way, the first one I installed, I put that cheap ass flange on backwards, drilled the holes in the wrong spot.:laughing:
> 
> And, when they stop up, they leak like a sieve from that rubber seal:yes:


I don't know why but this post made me think of a story a painter from Front Royal VA
told me about how his rich uncle had a fancy dual hole outhouse. He told me he went inside and didn't know what to do so he put one foot in each hole and pooped in his overalls.


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

Tommy plumber said:


> I had the same experience too. Customer called me on a Friday to install his floor model toilet. I show up at about 3:30 Friday afternoon thinking I'll slam the toilet in and leave.......when I arrive, I ask him where's the flange? Of course my customer has no idea what I'm talking about, so at about 4:30 ish I go to the supply house that sold him the toilet to get the mounting flange so I could set this wonderfully over-engineered toilet.
> 
> This was actually a re-model I was doing and my customer was supplying all his own fixtures.
> 
> Note the sweat stop I installed, no compression for me when I can install a sweat-stop.


I see your Milwaukee screwgun. How do you like it? I use a Dewalt XRP 18 V w/Hammerdrill option. I like it a lot, but some of my plumbing buddies use the Milwaukee, too. I been thinking about getting one.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

MTDUNN said:


> I don't know why but this post made me think of a story a painter from Front Royal VA
> told me about how his rich uncle had a fancy dual hole outhouse. He told me he went inside and didn't know what to do so he put one foot in each hole and pooped in his overalls.


Thanks. I really did lol.:laughing:


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## pigskin plumber (Oct 2, 2011)

Master Mark said:


> anyone ever tangle with any special Toto toilet lately...??
> 
> we had a special order *one peice Toto handicapped* toilet $650 that we got into a mess with last week.
> 
> ...


Similar issue with a RONA product, Uberhaus. I refuse to install any fixture that is Uberhaus. Rona that thrives on being Canada proud sells this brand from China, non CSA approved. I did a bathtub, the f'n drain outlet was a flex hose just like a dw. Anyway.. same toilet nightmare just like you. This is what happens when you get engineers who have never picked up a tool.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

How are two 2" 90s not classified as a flow restriction?


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

The traps on most toilets arnt much bigger The horns on lots of toilets are even smaller then 2" 
I think they made the toilet like this because it was to hard to cast/mold a one piece with tank and trap


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

So that's the trap for it?


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

I think it is the bottom half of the trap !!it makes a s trap I've never put one in. Just goin by the pics


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

See red woods pic of the rough in sheet ??


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## Rcplumber (Feb 27, 2011)

Master Mark said:


> anyone ever tangle with any special Toto toilet lately...??
> 
> we had a special order one peice Toto handicapped toilet $650 that we got into a mess with last week.
> 
> ...


You can get different offset floor plates for toto stools all depends on wall rough in already installed the r a snap to do I love them got one in my master bath wife wants the 400 dollar seat the cleans blows and all that crap I said nope


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

*I find this discussion kind of interesting...*:laughing:

*Lets see what I get from it....*

"Ima Plumber but this dang toilet is different from all the rest and I can't read the spec sheet or, instructions so I'll Bytch About Stuff Not Fitting Right....":laughing:

"Ima Plumber but I don't have the tools or, know how to drill through a hard ceramic or, glass tile so I'll Bytch About The Toilet I Was Installing...":laughing:

What I don't hear in this discussion is way back in the early 90's when 1.6 GPF toilets first were introduced they really sucked. They sucked so bad that some couldn't even flush a single sheet of toilet paper, never mind the big dump....:yes:

At the supply houses and from the manufacturers reps all we got was the sympathetic ear with the standard reply of "1.6 GPF just can't flush like those old 3.5 GPF toilets can, but it's the law....":whistling2:

Then one day people started finding out that Toto made a 1.6 GPF toilet that could flush pretty much anything a human could drop into it....:yes:

All those manufacturers that had simply retanked their 3.5 GPF toilets into 1.6 GPF toilets had their engineers burning the midnight oil trying to put a 3" flush valve like Toto used onto their toilets...

Over engineered? I think not!

I've got 16 Toto dealers a showrooms within 30 miles of me...
And I couldn't tell you where to find a Gerber, Kohler, Eljer, Am.Standard, or Mansfield dealer... Unless you want to walk into a big Blue or, orange box....

I sell the crap out of Toto toilets and it's funny but they install quite nicely too...:thumbup:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I think it is the bottom half of the trap !!it makes a s trap I've never put one in. Just goin by the pics


Yes it is the bottom part of the trapway of the toilet...

The same toilet fits 3 different rough ins without changing how far the toilet sticks out into the room...

Gotta love those 14" rough in toilets with the offset tank...
What are they? About 3 1/2' long?:laughing:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Rcplumber said:


> You can get different offset floor plates for toto stools all depends on wall rough in already installed the r a snap to do I love them got one in my master bath wife wants the 400 dollar seat the cleans blows and all that crap I said nope


 
I am sure that anything could be ordered to make the job work corrrectly

I just wanted to install a simple toilet for a set price, and that was my mistake 

we backed out of this mess because it was gonna turn into a day long job.... and this was with the customer whineing and moaning about having to spend another dime more than I quoted them.....

my simple point on this thread is never quote a one piece TOTO over the phone... this toilet is one that you must take the time to measure and do an on site evaluation before you lock in an estimate on it....

and with a retrofit,
 still could probably lose your ass on the job if you are not careful...


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> I am sure that anything could be ordered to make the job work corrrectly
> 
> I just wanted to install a simple toilet for a set price, and that was my mistake
> 
> ...


Let me take that a step further for you. Never quote prices over the phone.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> Let me take that a step further for you. Never quote prices over the phone.


Never ever, especially if they say" it should only take 5 minutes" or " I'd do it myself if I had the tools"


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> Let me take that a step further for you. Never quote prices over the phone.


If you know what you are doing its no big deal...:laughing:
I do it all the time.... and on average I do pretty well... this is a one in a thousand event for me... thats a pretty good batting average...

you would be amazed how many sales are lost by other plumbers in our town who will not even quote a water heater install on the phone..... 
It seems that most customers do not want them to come out and step foot in their homes...they are very un-comfortable about this.. 

as long as you communicate and you ask the right questions, its never usually an issue


Of course, I do reserve the right to cry foul if things 
are simply a " mission impossible"... I have never had anyone get too upset with me yet....


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> If you know what you are doing its no big deal...:laughing:
> I do it all the time.... and on average I do pretty well... this is a one in a thousand event for me... thats a pretty good batting average...
> 
> you would be amazed how many sales are lost by other plumbers in our town who will not even quote a water heater install on the phone.....
> ...


Right....
And that Gas Water Heater turns to a power vent when you arrive....:laughing:

But hey keep on keeping on...


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

Rcplumber said:


> wife wants the 400 dollar seat the cleans blows and all that crap I said nope


 that is sad sad sad. get the seat, who gives a rats arses about an over priced toilet. 

sure it works good big deal so do most toilets. 

Get the fancy toilet seat. That Rcplumber is a big deal and a life changer


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

Redwood said:


> I find this discussion kind of interesting...:laughing:
> 
> Lets see what I get from it....
> 
> ...


Well put Red, if asked from customers my opinion I always recommend Toto exclusively. Great toilets and I also think they go together quite well.


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## dankman (Nov 19, 2009)

Um, research the products you install before you install them; that is all


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> If you know what you are doing its no big deal...:laughing:
> I do it all the time.... and on average I do pretty well... this is a one in a thousand event for me... thats a pretty good batting average...
> 
> you would be amazed how many sales are lost by other plumbers in our town who will not even quote a water heater install on the phone.....
> ...


Well I will leave you with this... if I didn't quote prices, and you did, and we both booked the same number of calls, which way is better?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> Well I will leave you with this... if I didn't quote prices, and you did, and we both booked the same number of calls, which way is better?


 
If I had to spend my day driveing all over town looking at water heaters, I would not have as many calls booked to do ....

like I stated , I hear a lot of complaints from ALL my new customers 
about the other 5 plumbers they called that would not even give them
 a hint of what the price would be over the phone.... 
so now these guys are sitting in the office with their thumb in their ass:thumbsup: 
I am ok with that...if it works for them , it works for me:laughing:


On average , I do pretty well just quoteing folks over the phone..
we carry a 50 gas 40 short gas and a 50 electric so we pretty much 
got that base covered....on occcasion we might have a power vent slip by me..
 but its pretty rare... and when that happens, we re-quote the job, 
and go down the street and get the right heater....


Like Redwood said, its a matter of communication....
if you ask all the right questions, on average you will 
get an good enuogh answers....and be able to book the calls with only a slight gamble.....

Yes...the TOTO tripped me up last week 

my mistake :yes::yes:


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

Ran into the same problem a few years back master. Just wasn't reasonable to move waterline in a tiled floor. Didnt realize at the time that such toilets were even made! Ok take toilet back and start over. Chalk it up to another learning experience and now more questions asked over the phone.


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