# Oh boy, what a mess!



## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Took on a renovation job recently that was an fire insurance thing that became a full house renovation. Must have been smoke damage, because I saw no sign of char. 

The insurance company obviously went with the lowest bid, and towards the end of the rough-in the homeowner tossed the whole bunch out of his house - framers as well as so-called plumbers - because of the mess they were making. Then we were brought in to fix it up.

The framers did things like build partition walls out of old used too-short fence 2x4s, scabbing on bits of new 2x4 to make them long enough.

The "plumbers"... Well... Total amateur hour stuff. What a disaster! They hacked all their ABS with coarse hack blades and didn't deburr anything, at all. Just hacked it (many crooked cuts) and glued it together. They're the Roto-Rooter man's best friend! 

Sorry about the potato quality cell phone pics.





































They were replacing DWV and WLs from floor to roof. Many branches had insufficient slope. Combine that with all the burrs inside the pipes and things are not good. They also butchered joists so badly that we ended up sistering four and replacing one. They screwed their new floor flanges too far from the wall and into old rotted plywood. 

Laundry standpipe was undersized. Kitchen drain had no slope for most of its length and the last four feet had negative slope. Not enough hangers. The new branch was 2", but they reduced it to the existing 1-1/2" at the slab. 

Waterpipes were more of the same kind of slop. They were just a terrible mess. These are the kind of guys that make people think PEX is junk. I'm pretty sure their crimpers were too loose. The crimps seemed too easy to turn on the fittings. Junky Riobel valve in shower. DIY style threaded connections to tub & shower valves, and pex to the wingbacks. 



















The pictures really don't do the mess justice. It looks much worse in person where you can see it in 3D. See the PRV above the 220V box? What could go wrong? Waterpipes crushing dryer vent - our inspectors don't allow us to run PEX within 1' of heating or dryer vent pipes without shielding.

Tore out 100% of their DWV and WLs and started again. Reset the tub - couldn't trust anything they did.

----------------------------------

Then I decided I should have a quick look at the Navien tankless they had installed. At a glance it didn't look half bad. I downloaded a manual and looked at their venting. Oh-oh, trouble. Navien allows 60' of vent and a max of 6 ells. They had 7 ells on the exhaust. I added up the ells and they had 52' worth of elbows in there, leaving you an allowed 8' more of pipe. They had 25'+ of pipe. Sigh...  Had to chop all that out and take a shorter route with only three ells.

So I'm at the top ell in the attic, hacksawing.. and suddenly water is running down my arms. Stupid idiots had no hanger on the last couple feet of pipe and elbow. It had never even been warm yet and had already sagged till the elbow was sitting probably more than half full of water. Warm that thing up and it would have sagged until the vent was full. You know what happens then... :laughing:

Halfway down there was another sagged elbow about 1/4 full of water, but that one wouldn't have gotten worse as it was hung from above.

The intake had insufficient hangers, but was ok aside from that.

If you work in the Vancouver area and want to hear who did this botch job, just PM me.


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## KoleckeINC (Oct 22, 2011)

yep that's a do over. Good job


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Laundry undersized....sure sign of an amateur. Glad they got the boot and you got the job.....:thumbsup:


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## titaniumplumbr (Jun 11, 2014)

Dude tell me that's cpvc glue I'm seeing a lot of that and rain or shine used on dwv here in Florida which is totally illegal


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

titaniumplumbr said:


> Dude tell me that's cpvc glue I'm seeing a lot of that and rain or shine used on dwv here in Florida which is totally illegal


Except for the tankless venting there's not a stick of CPVC in this house. You're probably seeing ABS glue (we don't use PVC for residential DWV around here).


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## titaniumplumbr (Jun 11, 2014)

It's so weird abs has been outlawed here we are under no circumstances to install any abs pipe or fittings


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## tims007 (Aug 31, 2013)

Wow


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## gardenparty (Jan 29, 2015)

No ABS? What is the reason behind that? I haven't seen anything but ABS installed in a residence around here.


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## titaniumplumbr (Jun 11, 2014)

Simple it's because of root intrusion Florida has some mean plants


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## titaniumplumbr (Jun 11, 2014)




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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

futz said:


> These are the kind of guys that make people think PEX is junk. I'm pretty sure their crimpers were too loose. The crimps seemed too easy to turn on the fittings.


Those bad plumbers left a bag of crimp rings at the job. I picked them up and used them on another job. Today I was testing the job for inspection and got two leaks with those rings.

I've never ever had a crimped PEX fitting leak before. It just doesn't happen. My crimpers are regularly checked and adjusted if necessary. 

I swear the bag the rings came in said Watts, but can't remember for sure. They're the shiny copper ones with black lettering. I've used those before and had no trouble with them. I for sure won't be using them ever again! 

When I cut the bad fittings apart I found that my crimps with these rings also turned too easily on the fittings. I remember when I was crimping them that they seemed maybe a bit easier to crimp than my usual CB Supplies black dyed rings, which are always good.

So now I have around 80+ of these rings in this custom house, and I'm freaking out about them. I'm going to cut them all out and repipe those sections. Here's a couple pics of where most of the rings ended up - bit of a pain to repipe. 



















Yup, Kingston wall mount lav faucets over vessel sinks on wall hung vanities. Joy...


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Just use Viega and have zero problems. Throw the rest of the junk in the garbage your better off.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

futz said:


> Those bad plumbers left a bag of crimp rings at the job. I picked them up and used them on another job. Today I was testing the job for inspection and got two leaks with those rings.
> 
> I've never ever had a crimped PEX fitting leak before. It just doesn't happen. My crimpers are regularly checked and adjusted if necessary.
> 
> ...




Sorry about your troubles..
I found a bag of weed one time on a beach in Oregon... someone had left it there from the night before... sitting on the beach and I stuck my hand down in the sand and bingo... there it was..... 


I decided it was best to just leave it where I found it.. because you never know what you are getting 

. that is probably what you should have done with that free bag of rings....


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

Why do you have the lav arms coming out on 45?


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Michaelcookplum said:


> Why do you have the lav arms coming out on 45?


Why not? Those could have been centered, but coming in at an angle keeps me out of the way of all the valves I have to install in the back of the cabinet. Also, I've just gotten into the habit of almost never knowing exactly where center is and playing safe so I don't have to elbow back - only allowed 135 degrees on sink arms.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

I could never get away with that water pipe in an outside wall like that here. You must be from a warm climate area? Although it looks like 6" wall with another wall in front. That would pass here.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

futz said:


> Why not?


The dry wall guys must love you lol...


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

theplumbinator said:


> Although it looks like 6" wall with another wall in front. That would pass here.


That's what it is. There's a shower valve in that inner wall too, as well as an outdoor shower in the outer wall. I'm in the part of Canada with the mildest climate, but we still sometimes get cold snaps that could freeze any pipe in the outside wall.



theplumbinator said:


> The dry wall guys must love you lol...


We get along just fine.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Great looking work as always futz, 

I have been using soiux chief crimp rings and like them very much, paying 11 bucks for 100 rings


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

*Here We Go!*

So this thing is about to get really interesting. Turns out the original rough plumbing, with blatant code deficiencies, had passed inspection, and the insurance company is not happy. :laughing: With some of the deficiencies being so obvious I was sure it hadn't been inspected.

Lucky for me, I did some documentation (in hindsight, not as much as I should have) and walked the inspector through before I started ripping out to show him what I was unhappy with. He never said a thing about it being previously inspected and passed. He's a nice guy (probably too nice) and we get along great, but now he may be in the soup. Oh well... He brought it on himself. 

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GREENPLUM said:


> I have been using sioux chief crimp rings and like them very much, paying 11 bucks for 100 rings


I like CB Supplies rings. Been using them forever and have never had a leak or any other problem with them. We pay exactly twice what you do.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

futz said:


> So this thing is about to get really interesting. Turns out the original rough plumbing, with blatant code deficiencies, had passed inspection, and the insurance company is not happy. :laughing: With some of the deficiencies being so obvious I was sure it hadn't been inspected.
> 
> Lucky for me, I did some documentation (in hindsight, not as much as I should have) and walked the inspector through before I started ripping out to show him what I was unhappy with. He never said a thing about it being previously inspected and passed. He's a nice guy (probably too nice) and we get along great, but now he may be in the soup. Oh well... He brought it on himself.
> 
> ...




Any time that you can make an inspector look like a fool or get them in hot water for not doing their job right is a good day......:thumbsup:


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> Any time that you can make an inspector look like a fool or get them in hot water for not doing their job right is a good day......:thumbsup:



With some of quotes, comments, and pics I see from you, I'm sure that does not happen often.😗😗


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> Any time that you can make an inspector look like a fool or get them in hot water for not doing their job right is a good day......:thumbsup:


be ready you may have a good day but the next time he may be packin from the schooling you give him. We had one that was under qualified but a nice guy we schooled him on some of his faults damed if he didn't take some courses and become the greatest inspector monster ever. Still nice guy though.


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

I think inspectors are just plumbers who couldn't make it in the real world. They are on power trips and love throwing their weight around. They know they got you by the short and curlys and take great pride in this. Thankfully I kissed enough of their asses over the years that I'm in good with most of them. My last gas inspection, the inspector called me when he got to the job and told me to come out to his car to get the gas card. I was kind of mad that I spent the time setting the pressure test up but oh well, it worked out.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

jmc12185 said:


> I think inspectors are just plumbers who couldn't make it in the real world. They are on power trips and love throwing their weight around. They know they got you by the short and curlys and take great pride in this. Thankfully I kissed enough of their asses over the years that I'm in good with most of them. My last gas inspection, the inspector called me when he got to the job and told me to come out to his car to get the gas card. I was kind of mad that I spent the time setting the pressure test up but oh well, it worked out.



Ha, that's what it is.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

jmc12185 said:


> I think inspectors are just plumbers who couldn't make it in the real world. They are on power trips and love throwing their weight around. They know they got you by the short and curlys and take great pride in this. Thankfully I kissed enough of their asses over the years that I'm in good with most of them. My last gas inspection, the inspector called me when he got to the job and told me to come out to his car to get the gas card. I was kind of mad that I spent the time setting the pressure test up but oh well, it worked out.


dam I'm looking into that job! I have been on the wrong side of that fence if that's the case.lol


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

wyrickmech said:


> dam I'm looking into that job! I have been on the wrong side of that fence if that's the case.lol


 What do you mean? I'm not following what your saying?


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

jmc12185 said:


> What do you mean? I'm not following what your saying?


 if the job is that easy that you don't even have to get out of the car I'm in. Lol


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

As an inspector I have dealt with some plumbers that are just short of being a Home Depot employee, so your point makes no sense. I assure you that not all inspectors were/ are bad plumbers. Some of the local inspectors in my surrounding communities are very good plumbers as well as inspectors. I chose to close my business after 14 years because I thought that this would give me more time to spend with my family and honestly I was burnt out from business.
I am still a very good plumber that took a lot of pride in the craft that I learned. I was asked to take over the position I am in because of how good of a plumber I was and am very respected in the community I'm in covering a city and 2 towns. Maybe the area you work in the inspectors are clowns, but I assure you that most if not all inspectors in Ma are EXTREMELY knowledgeable of their positions and that most do not have an ax to grind. I find that the guys that I "need to throw my weight around" are the problem, not the inspectors. Don't give us a reason to bust your balls.


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

plumbdrum said:


> As an inspector I have dealt with some plumbers that are just short of being a Home Depot employee, so your point makes no sense. I assure you that not all inspectors were/ are bad plumbers. Some of the local inspectors in my surrounding communities are very good plumbers as well as inspectors. I chose to close my business after 14 years because I thought that this would give me more time to spend with my family and honestly I was burnt out from business. I am still a very good plumber that took a lot of pride in the craft that I learned. I was asked to take over the position I am in because of how good of a plumber I was and am very respected in the community I'm in covering a city and 2 towns. Maybe the area you work in the inspectors are clowns, but I assure you that most if not all inspectors in Ma are EXTREMELY knowledgeable of their positions and that most do not have an ax to grind. I find that the guys that I "need to throw my weight around" are the problem, not the inspectors. Don't give us a reason to bust your balls.


 most of them here are clowns... You don't even need to be a licensed plumber to be an inspector here. All you have to do is pass some test.


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

Like I said, I'm in good with most of them in my area so it's not a problem because we are more on friendly terms.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

So you must have a carpenter or electrician being the "building official" who is the plumbing, mechanical inspector? If so sorry for my rant. That crap does not happen here, thank god


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

plumbdrum said:


> So you must have a carpenter or electrician being the "building official" who is the plumbing, mechanical inspector? If so sorry for my rant. That crap does not happen here, thank god


 Yup, you hit the nail on the head.


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

In certain towns here, one guy will come to the job to inspect the framing, insulation and plumbing all in one shot. And obviously they know absolutely nothing about plumbing code.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Why would any town want that liability?


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

In Halifax, Nova Scotia, they combined all the inspectors so anyone could inspect any part of the building process. The framing inspectors would take an 8 week course to be able to inspect plumbing and vice versa. Most of them you talked to were given a list of companies to give the green sticker to by the old plumbing inspectors. Even talking to a former plumbing inspector he told me that he has to dumb down his inspections because he knows the other inspectors are passing them. We have had inspectors that couldn't even tell what size pipe they were looking at let alone what the pipe was for


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

tim666 said:


> In Halifax, Nova Scotia, they combined all the inspectors so anyone could inspect any part of the building process. The framing inspectors would take an 8 week course to be able to inspect plumbing and vice versa. Most of them you talked to were given a list of companies to give the green sticker to by the old plumbing inspectors. Even talking to a former plumbing inspector he told me that he has to dumb down his inspections because he knows the other inspectors are passing them. We have had inspectors that couldn't even tell what size pipe they were looking at let alone what the pipe was for


I heard that they're talking about doing that here. Sigh... I can't wait. 

Maybe I'll hit a lottery and be able to get out of this stupid business...


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

In Illinois you must be a licensed plumber to inspect plumbing. The State recently ran through that a plumbing inspector not only needs to be a licensed plumber, but must a be a certified plumbing inspector.

This requires a $200.00, 25 question test with the State, and kicks the mandated CEU's up to 14. Problem is 7 or so of the CEU's must be given by the State, only place in the State so far for these are in the Country of Chicago.

Rest of the inspections are not required to be done be certified people, although the International Code Council has multiple tests that can be taken to certify a person in different types of inspections, etc. A lot of municipal positions like this we are seeing the applications wanting certifications of some sorts, or to get a certification in a year or so.

Often the book baby inspectors may not have a day out in the field, as long as they pass an open book ICC test, your good to go.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

plumbdrum said:


> Why would any town want that liability?












Lots of inspectors here in FL also perform double and triple duty inspecting multiple trades. 

A plumbing license is not a pre-requisite in order to get a plumbing inspector's license. I blame the state. In theory, my wife could be inspecting my work if she could pass the inspector's exam.....what a joke.


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