# Groundwork 101



## Mykeeb33

When doing large ground work jobs, there were a couple home made tools I always used. One was an adjustable plumb bob holder I made out of #9 wire. The kind that rebar came bundled with. The other was my wooden rule. No, not the folding kind that rjbphd likes to use! I would get a couple long (16'-20') and a couple 10' 2x4's from the carpenters, take a tri-square and mark out 1' increments the entire length of the boards. After the ditches were dug, you could set one end at the gridline and lay these boards across the ditch or across each other as needed to get your locations. My plumb bob could easily hang over the board and be adjusted to the right height to get accurate measurements. It sure beats holding a tape measure to the grid line in one hand, and a plumb bob in the other.


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## Flyout95

Just eyeball it and go. That's what RJ would do...


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## Bayside500

nice, i have the same kinda deal for my plumb bob


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## Tommy plumber

I used a chalk box to wind up the string for a plumb bob. 


I used to work with a journeyman who would climb up into the roof trusses and drop little screws down to the vertical stack that he wanted to bring out the roof. When he dropped the screw into the stack, he'd mark the roof and that's where he would drill for the stack. LOL.


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## Flyout95

Stealing the chalk box idea.


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## jmc12185

Tommy plumber said:


> I used a chalk box to wind up the string for a plumb bob. I used to work with a journeyman who would climb up into the roof trusses and drop little screws down to the vertical stack that he wanted to bring out the roof. When he dropped the screw into the stack, he'd mark the roof and that's where he would drill for the stack. LOL.


 That sounds like precision right there. Lol


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## JWBII

I use a gammon reel for my plumb bob....

http://www.tigersupplies.com/Products/Gammon-Reel-12ft-Hi-Vis-Black-and-Orange__11-728.aspx


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## plbgbiz

JWBII said:


> I use a gammon reel for my plumb bob....
> 
> http://www.tigersupplies.com/Products/Gammon-Reel-12ft-Hi-Vis-Black-and-Orange__11-728.aspx


I am surprised it is only 12'.


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## Plumbus

A chalk box is what we've used as well. I've eyeballed a few over the years when I had ample tolerances.


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## wyrickmech

Plumbus said:


> A chalk box is what we've used as well. I've eyeballed a few over the years when I had ample tolerances.


the cool thing about using a chalk box is when inside a building and running a drain up a block wall exposed you can drop the plumb bob down and snap a calk line to follow. This simplifying the hangers.


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## Plumbus

The only thing one has to worry about with a chalk box is the PO'd carpenter when he finds out you've borrowed his.


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## Plumb Bob

Flyout95 said:


> Stealing the chalk box idea.


Me too


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## JWBII

plbgbiz said:


> I am surprised it is only 12'.


I was too when I first started using it. For my type of work it's perfect though. Ditches aren't normally even over 4 feet if even 3.


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## moonapprentice

I have to do 3 residential open site ground works next week. Just the me, the foundation walls, and the sky. Any tips or tricks for getting the depth and slope of the ditches accurate as I don't have a ceiling to measure from.


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## Tommy plumber

moonapprentice said:


> I have to do 3 residential open site ground works next week. Just the me, the foundation walls, and the sky. Any tips or tricks for getting the depth and slope of the ditches accurate as I don't have a ceiling to measure from.












Better ask your boss. He shouldn't be sending you out if you're not comfortable doing the work. Unless you told him you know what you're doing.....:whistling2:

The proper slope on the ditch is obtained by digging the bottom of the ditch with a flat shovel, slapping a piece of pipe in the ditch, and then putting a level on top of the pipe.

Do you have a cut sheet? That will have measurements; for example, it'll tell you how far off the outside wall the center of the trunkline is. You need to know where to put up string lines which represent walls. Then you have to get the pipes that are supposed to be inside walls, inside those walls. W/C stub ups obviously don't go inside the walls, but 13" from the rough wall. If he just gives you a print {blueprint}, you need to be able to measure off of that print.

Are these your first ground roughs?

When you set up the string lines, make sure to add the appropriate amount of inches for the walls! 8" block, 2"x4" with sheetrock, etc. And don't lay any shovels on the string line, or the measurments will all be wrong.....:laughing:


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## moonapprentice

First open site that I am in charge of... I have stakes, string lines, marking paint, and 4' level. I am very comfortable doing this. I just was wondering how you guys pluck your chicken. String lines for walls and I will have to establish a starting depth connecting to building sewer. From there my plan was to "wing" trench slope by putting in pipe and check with four foot level before installing. Yeah, drywall, different foundation widths, different size interior walls...no problem there. I have seen groundwork done differently so I guess I was just asking what way you guys think is the most efficient/accurate. No incompetence here.


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## plumbdrum

moonapprentice said:


> First open site that I am in charge of... I have stakes, string lines, marking paint, and 4' level. I am very comfortable doing this. I just was wondering how you guys pluck your chicken. String lines for walls and I will have to establish a starting depth connecting to building sewer. From there my plan was to "wing" trench slope by putting in pipe and check with four foot level before installing. Yeah, drywall, different foundation widths, different size interior walls...no problem there. I have seen groundwork done differently so I guess I was just asking what way you guys think is the most efficient/accurate. No incompetence here.




Still an unlicensed individual not under direct supervision of licensed plumber is a no no.


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## moonapprentice

I take j man test 6 months from now if that changes your opinion ...  .... 😉... 6 years in trade


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## moonapprentice

I bought one brand new. Old one broke after a year and a half. Maybe me using a fold would change your opinion on my dumb apprentice question???? Just kidding (I am neutral and legally eligible to run a job site in WI) 😆😆😆


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## rjbphd

moonapprentice said:


> I bought one brand new. Old one broke after a year and a half. Maybe me using a fold would change your opinion on my dumb apprentice question???? Just kidding (I am neutral and legally eligible to run a job site in WI) ?de06?de06?de06


Wtf???? 6 years and ya using the mason ruler????


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## TC27

:laughing:


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## mccmech

How competent is your excavator? Usually a laser, set at finished slab, along with stick, will get yer trenches dug at proper pitch. As far as walls, can't ya use a laser? The piles of dirt, and other guys constantly tripping on the string, has made me a fan of the laser. Just my .02!


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## GREENPLUM

Please post up some pic of this underslab plumbin when yer dun. Thx


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## wyrickmech

On large ground works use concrete stakes and 2x4s make a box bigger than the room you are trying to rough in. Lay the walls out on the boards and string line both sides of the walls you will never miss.


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## moonapprentice

So here is ground work. 2 stacks. The 4" stack is cdv for 3" floor drain. 2 local wastes (open sights) are draining to floor drain via 3x2 cross tree. One for softener and other for furnace. Basement bath with tub. Ran 2" to the tub because I barely exceeded my 6' I have to play with for the WI wet vent code through the lav. The two 6" uni-strut bars attached to the outside wall is for the water makeup assembly and water meter. This also gets a deduct meter for irrigation and hosebibs. I still need to run the 1" 1/4" water service over to the wall and complete the sump crock as well. I hammer drilled a hole in outside wall and footing. Threw a tight nail in the hole and ran a string to get basement bath wall. To get my elevation at starting depth connection to sewer i estimated lower and end up about 2" deeper than if i was dead on. It wasnt bad digging so i figured lower depth isnt going to hurt and screw me at the end of the main/branch drains. So today I layed out this house, the house next door and had helper dig out. Also did 2 sewer and water laterals that were both half an hour travel time away from this ground work. 10.5 hour day. I know picture is small but you should be able to zoom in with the file I sent it in as.


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## moonapprentice

Would have finished it but have to get ready for the badgers!!!


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## GREENPLUM

In the top left bathroom, why don't you pull a wye off the tub drain and catch the lav/vent? 

Primer?

Test?


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## moonapprentice

I chose to wet circuit vent it than horizontal wet vent it because it would have been another 90 fitting in the lav drain and more 2" being used for drainage. The solvent weld I used was one step (which is what I was given). With one step I usually go around the inside firing hub with pressure about 10-15 times to activate the plastic (getting fitting soft and somewhat what I call primering w/ one step itself, then a nice even coat on pipe. Then really put a nice thick coat on inside of fitting. The second thick coat in the fitting I think helps because when inserting pipe the glue is in side and not pushing out. Works well fore to get an easy quarter turn on fitting with no binding up and struggling and being a solid solvent weld. 3 step glue method I guess. Since learning this method have not had a leak. Works well to adjust fittings in cold weather too. I guess I look at it as if I need a second can of glue, it is cheaper than repairing a leak. Going to test with water tommorow. I know it's not 10' head but inspectors allow it. If it holds than holds. that's what they say. Otherwise I'd fill with water, throw test caps on and then fill with air to 5 psi.


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## Leach713

I don't do ground work I wish someone would teach me.


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## Tommy plumber

Don't worry about pipes being out of walls. That is what this is for......:laughing:


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## plumbdrum

What's I up with 1 step glue???


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## moonapprentice

That's what my company uses. I guess it's cheaper for 1 can of that then a can of cement and a can of primer in their minds


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## moonapprentice

Oates green label


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## moonapprentice

Oatey**


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## plumbdrum

I'm sure your code and the manufacture would feel differently about that application. Also do you sleeve your PVC penetrations through the concrete? I really have a hard time making out the rest of the install on the small pic and I know our code are going to be much different so I'll stop here


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## moonapprentice

The 1 step is code approved. We do not have to sleeve the pic through the concrete. I haven't heard of that till now. The only thing we have sleeve through concrete is water lines (any material). I do know when the concrete guys pour the floor they do tape off the pvc a little bit for the vapor barrier, but there are no intentions of the tape acting as a sleeve. What is the purpose of sleeving it? I've never heard of chemical reactions of it? Maybe for other reasons I'm unaware of?


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## moonapprentice

To clear things up here it is "Oatey all weather medium pvc cement" requires no primer. Please disregard my term of "one step". My apologies


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## plumbdrum

The sleeving is for annular spacing PVC can shear of and crack if it has no room to move


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## moonapprentice

"No primer needed up to 4" diameter on non pressure dwv" to get technical


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## moonapprentice

So with this sleeve do you seal it off? How do you prevent Radon gas, or ground water, or bugs?


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## plumbdrum

Again manufacture instructions and I guess your inspector not picking up on it. It's a welded connection that needs to be primed


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## moonapprentice

I could see that happening with major settling problems or drastic temperature changes....I guess of my limited 6 years 55+ hours a week I have never heard or seen of this. Good to know though


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## moonapprentice

Primer is built in with the cement


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## jmc12185

I'm pretty sure everyone's code says pvc must be sleeved through concrete.


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## moonapprentice

Our inspectors know about it, and they were previous plumbers themselves


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## moonapprentice

jmc12185 said:


> I'm pretty sure everyone's code says pvc must be sleeved through concrete.


Dr. Evils voice : "riiiiiiiiiggghhhhht"


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## plumbdrum

Ahhh young flusher, so much to learn


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## Tommy plumber

jmc12185 said:


> I'm pretty sure everyone's code says pvc must be sleeved through concrete.












FL allows, and has for years for DWV to be unsleeved through a cement slab. Water piping through a slab must be sleeved. The exception is CPVC. {shrugging shoulders....}


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## moonapprentice

Thank you. Key word: slab. Yes pvc is to be sleeved through concrete on let's say post tension, or prevent cast. In my own opinion if you have to sleeve through the underfloor slab then you have bigger issues going on if you are heavily relying sleeves in that manner


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## moonapprentice

Pre-cast **


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## Tommy plumber

These pictures are from a house built in I think the 1970's. I was called to repair the rotted galvanized W/C supply line coming up from the slab. I chipped open the floor, took a look around and said, no way a repair will do. This house needs to be re-piped. I'm waiting to here back from the bank.

Note that back in the day, the water lines were not sleeved up through the slab.


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## Bayside500

jmc12185 said:


> I'm pretty sure everyone's code says pvc must be sleeved through concrete.


what about if you had a hole cored drilled through a solid concrete wall for PVC, some people make you sleeve it, even though the concrete will never touch the PVC pipe.

i can see sleeveing it if the concrete was poured around the PVC.


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## plumbdrum

I should have used the term annular space


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## wyrickmech

Core drilled holes must have a sleeve 1 inch above the slab or be sealed with a approved sealant to prevent water from seeping to the underside of the slab. Either way you need to seal it. Here no sleeves are required in the slab on grade but all slab openings must be sealed air tight to prevent bug intrusion including tub drains and showers. Water lines are sleeved and sealed if they come threw the lowest slab. Any hole threw walls below grade are link sealed.


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## rwh

moonapprentice said:


> "No primer needed up to 4" diameter on non pressure dwv" to get technical


Primer is required on all pvc as one part of the solvent weld process. I have encountered unprimed pvc that pulls apart by hand.


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## moonapprentice

When our stacks penetrate 1st floor coming up from the basement an expansion joint is required. Same from 1st floor to second floor of these wood framed homes. Our closer collars have to be pl500 to floor and screwed. The wall that our washer boxes are in are fire foamed from head to toe as well.


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## moonapprentice

And closet collars screwed and held in place with toggle bolts required


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## moonapprentice

rwh said:


> Primer is required on all pvc as one part of the solvent weld process. I have encountered unprimed pvc that pulls apart by hand.


I was referring to the all weather cement so my statement is in fact true


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## plumbdrum

moonapprentice said:


> I was referring to the all weather cement so my statement is in fact true



You still need to prime your PVC, I don't care what your boss tells or gives you to use, you are doing an incorrect install


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## plumbdrum

Easiest solution is to look up what ever pvc manufacture you are using, I guarantee it states it must be primed. Forget about what you glue can tells you


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## plumbdrum

moonapprentice said:


> And closet collars screwed and held in place with toggle bolts required



I hope they are stainless steel


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## moonapprentice

With the all weather it is in fact getting PRIMED AS WELL ... for being an inspector this doesn't surprise me on your incompetence and stubborness. I do not like to assume but I'm guessing you were never an actual plumber too. Your a by the book no common sense inspector everyone really dispises behind your back. I'm done with this. Your right, I'm wrong. Geez.... women these days I'll tell ya.


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## plumbdrum

moonapprentice said:


> With the all weather it is in fact getting PRIMED AS WELL ... for being an inspector this doesn't surprise me on your incompetence and stubborness. I do not like to assume but I'm guessing you were never an actual plumber too. Your a by the book no common sense inspector everyone really dispises behind your back. I'm done with this. Your right, I'm wrong. Geez.... women these days I'll tell ya.




Mr apprentice , I've been a plumber for 25 years, I have forgotten more about plumbing than you know, so if your going to throw insults back it up with more than that's what the can of glue says. As far as common sense goes I'm sure I have more in my pinky finger than in your head. Get back to me when you read the PIPE and FITTING manufactures installation instructions slap you upside the head, I eat guys like you up for lunch with your smugness, as an apprentice you should shut up and listen like the rest of the little flushers do and you might learn something


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## plumbdrum

So i just read oatey all weather, ya better get some better glasses and go back to plumbing school


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## moonapprentice

Power trip hahaha


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## plumbdrum

As far as sleeving goes this is what MY code says, yours may be different


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## moonapprentice

Well the stuff works Great! And no issues with it ever. That's the bottom line. As a plumber you should know that's what counts the most.


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## plumbdrum

moonapprentice said:


> Power trip hahaha



Yup, cause I earned it


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## plumbdrum

moonapprentice said:


> Well the stuff works Great! And no issues with it ever. That's the bottom line. As a plumber you should know that's what counts the most.




Wrong, as a plumber you follow code and manufactures specs , which you clearly didn't. It's ok to be wrong, learn from it and make the proper adjustments to your apprenticeship


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## moonapprentice

The code is sometime wrong and as an inspector you adjust to it


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## plumbdrum

Ok, your right I'm wrong, have at it, I'll adjust the plumbing code just for you. Unbeiievable


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## moonapprentice

Yup throw the code book right out the window that's exactly what I'm getting at


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## plumbdrum

I don't think you have ever owned a code book or attended code class, your comments tell me that you own a Home Depot How to Do plumbing book. Good day apprentice


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## moonapprentice

Lol


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## moonapprentice

plumbdrum said:


> So i just read oatey all weather, ya better get some better glasses and go back to plumbing school


Glasses?


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## plumbdrum

Where local codes permit???


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## plumbdrum

And again check your pipe manufacture


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## plumbdrum

http://www.oatey.com/doc/lcs358dtri-foldhow-to-solvent-weld-brochure011415lr.pdf


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## plumbdrum

So what code are you under, if you have a code book I'm sure it will state differently than your statements.


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## plumbdrum

moonapprentice said:


> Glasses?



Brains????????


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## plumbdrum

The wise people on my plumbing board said about a manufacture to not always read their instructions as gospel, read your code


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## moonapprentice

Yes. Exactly, where local codes permit. My code is specifically WI state code. Not upc, ipc, etc. From Madison to Milwaukee and everywhere in between has NOT one inspector said this is not allowed. As a non union shop and doing work in Milwaukee most of the inspectors there are pro-union and will do anything to red tag us. No problem to them using this glue. 60+ Journeyman and 10+ master plumbers use this glue everyday. 600+ new construction homes a year and 20+ big commercial jobs a year including 10 story buildings. The stuff has held water pressure from 50' head with no leaks. We better go rip everything out now because it is not "code" to you. If you took "code" classes then you know the "code" changes periodically. It is more of a plumbing "language" than anything. You can "challenge" the code to the "wise" and almighty code officials if reasonings make sense. I personally have talked to the state on a different issue aside and got a code "put in" and enforced. The code is there obviously for a reason and should be followed by, but some things are just not always 100% practical and can be disputed or agreed upon within installation period time. If you inspected my company's work you would get eaten alive. For you to say "well its the code and that's that" shows your a one minded individual who cannot think for himself and relies on the plumbing bible only. Pumbers help build the code to for what it is today, and this glue I use is legal and works. Yes, Glue, I call it glue. Mr. Inspector remember it's a plumbing language.


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## moonapprentice

I thought "correct" way to chemically solvent weld pvc is use cleaner, then primer, than cement. In your how-to there's no cleaner involved


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## plumbdrum

Let's see what happens when you have a failure, we will see what the manufacture has to say about it, that being said I would love to see what the exact code from WI says about solvent welding pvc, put your money where your mouth is young apprentice. As far as getting "chewed up" by your plumbers , remember I have a "power trip" and always have the final say. Just because what you and your fellow plumbers have been getting away with this type of install still does not make it right. So again show the code and the pvc manufactures installation instructions.


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## moonapprentice

Code says test dwv with air or water. Manufacture says test with water. So I will follow the "code" and test pvc with air. Then a pipe will burst and shatter (not a joint because all weather is the shiot) , then injure or kill someone who is near it. There are grey areas in the "code" which need to be acknowledged and understood as well. Now the code could kill someone in that situation since we now do not want to follow the manufacture gospel. Follow your code only! Riiiiigggghhhhhtttt


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## moonapprentice

And yes it lists pvc as a material for air test


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## plumbdrum

moonapprentice said:


> Code says test dwv with air or water. Manufacture says test with water. So I will follow the "code" and test pvc with air. Then a pipe will burst and shatter (not a joint because all weather is the shiot) , then injure or kill someone who is near it. There are grey areas in the "code" which need to be acknowledged and understood as well. Now the code could kill someone in that situation since we now do not want to follow the manufacture gospel. Follow your code only! Riiiiigggghhhhhtttt



Not talking about testing, pay attention, we will test after the proper application of the material is used. Your running in circles little flusher, provide me the information I have requested so we can stop this nonsense that your spewing


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## plumber11928

No purple no passie here in NJ, I don't care WHAT that can say's !!!


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## plumbdrum

plumber11928 said:


> No purple no passie here in NJ, I don't care WHAT that can say's !!!



We don't require purple primer but we require primer


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## plumber11928

I had to re-pipe a house because a lame brain put purple primer in the glue, i guess he thought he was going to fool the inspector or a short cut.


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## plumbdrum

The other state I hold a master in required purple primer, I used to tint it with clear, not as obnoxious


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## plumbdrum

Hey moon boy, I'm waiting for the info, enlighten me please


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## plumbdrum

plumber11928 said:


> I had to re-pipe a house because a lame brain put purple primer in the glue, i guess he thought he was going to fool the inspector or a short cut.


When I was in business I worked in 2 states, town right over the state line I was waiting for the inspector when realized I had forgotten to use purple. I did prime it (always) and it was under test. So I took a q tip and dipped it in the purple and ran it around the joint, let's just say best looking purple joint I ever saw. Oh, and it past. Moral of the story it was PRIMED!!!!!!!


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## TC27

moonapprentice said:


> So here is ground work. 2 stacks. The 4" stack is cdv for 3" floor drain. 2 local wastes (open sights) are draining to floor drain via 3x2 cross tree. One for softener and other for furnace. Basement bath with tub. Ran 2" to the tub because I barely exceeded my 6' I have to play with for the WI wet vent code through the lav. The two 6" uni-strut bars attached to the outside wall is for the water makeup assembly and water meter. This also gets a deduct meter for irrigation and hosebibs. I still need to run the 1" 1/4" water service over to the wall and complete the sump crock as well. I hammer drilled a hole in outside wall and footing. Threw a tight nail in the hole and ran a string to get basement bath wall. To get my elevation at starting depth connection to sewer i estimated lower and end up about 2" deeper than if i was dead on. It wasnt bad digging so i figured lower depth isnt going to hurt and screw me at the end of the main/branch drains. So today I layed out this house, the house next door and had helper dig out. Also did 2 sewer and water laterals that were both half an hour travel time away from this ground work. 10.5 hour day. I know picture is small but you should be able to zoom in with the file I sent it in as.



Assuming my direction of flow is correct, why did you use a wye to pick up the branch like you did? 

Pardon my paint, but wouldn't this have been better for you?


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## rjbphd

TC27 said:


> Assuming my direction of flow is correct, why did you use a wye to pick up the branch like you did?
> 
> Pardon my paint, but wouldn't this have been better for you?


Heel closet vent won't fly here... unless wet vent..


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## TC27

not a heel vent, throw a wye off for w.c., another for shower, and then 90 up for lav.


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## rjbphd

TC27 said:


> not a heel vent, throw a wye off for w.c., another for shower, and then 90 up for lav.


 Got it..


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## rwh

Purple tint is up to the ahj. Primer is not. It is up to chemistry. That is why it is called a solvent weld and not a glue joint.


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## moonapprentice

The code does state the "process" to prime first, then cement. The reason this all weather Flys with the inspectors here is because there is primer chemicals mixed in with the cement. So the chemical reaction is thought of to be done in one shot instead of two processes. It's not regular cement. So there ya have it


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## moonapprentice

Now tell me how you would get your starting elevation on an open site ground work with no lasers, since you wanted to go after me about solvent welding and testing this ground work instead of my original question.


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## KoleckeINC

moonapprentice said:


> Now tell me how you would get your starting elevation on an open site ground work with no lasers, since you wanted to go after me about solvent welding and testing this ground work instead of my original question.


Oooh oooh Water level! Or stakes and a string level. You have a pitch level? Home Depot has them. Tells you 1/8-1/4-3/8-1/2" per foot right in the bubble!


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## rwh

A transit?


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## moonapprentice

No level... I eye ball it


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## rwh

They should call you laser eye


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## KoleckeINC

moonapprentice said:


> No level... I eye ball it


I think they're out of adjustment and need to go back for a tune up-with a real folding ruler!


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## moonapprentice

Little men bashing future up comers rather than advising. That's OK I accept that


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## rwh

Who bashed you?


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## TC27

Your code references astm d3212 for solvent cementing procedurers. It requires a primer. 

Read astm d3212

(14) PVC PLASTIC PIPE. Joints between polyvinyl chloride plastic pipe or fittings shall be in accordance with pars. (a) to (c).
(a) Mechanical joints. Mechanical joints shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer?s instructions.
1. ?Drain and vent systems.? Mechanical push?on joints for drain and vent systems shall conform to ASTM D3212.
2. ?Water supply systems.? Mechanical push?on joints and mechanical compression type joints for water supply systems which use flexible elastomeric seals shall be suitable for potable water.
(b) Solvent cemented joints. Solvent cemented joints shall be made in accordance with ASTM D2855.
1. Joint surfaces shall be clean and free of moisture. A primer conforming to ASTM F656 shall be applied to all joint surfaces.
2. Solvent cement conforming to ASTM D2564 shall be applied to all joint surfaces and the joint shall be made while the cement is wet.
3. Solvent cement shall be handled in accordance with ASTM F402.


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## moonapprentice

That's exactly it


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## chonkie

Been a little while since we've had one of these type threads. I think you are missing out on one big factor when not using primer ... you're not gettin the extra buzz it gives you that you won't get with just cement. Just make sure to not get purple on your nose, that's a dead give away.


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## moonapprentice

D2855 is the process... so basically im cheating the process but in the end the outcome basically the same


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## moonapprentice

But not 100% to the book


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## TC27

..wow


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## TC27

is that a wye I highlighted in the picture you posted that I edited a few posts back? Did I perceive the direction of flow to be correct?


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## TC27

Post 94 to be exact.


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## moonapprentice

No... the way the flow u had was actually going to a stack... that riser with a grey cap is a backwater valve and a clean out in front of it, which you may have thought of been a stack


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## chonkie

moonapprentice said:


> D2855 is the process... so basically im cheating the process but in the end the outcome basically the same


So you basically just said that the joint will not be the same as if you did the d2855 process. Not the same as in the joint being weaker or stronger to you?


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## moonapprentice

It's an L shape main


----------



## moonapprentice

chonkie said:


> So you basically just said that the joint will not be the same as if you did the d2855 process. Not the same as in the joint being weaker or stronger to you?


I do think the joint would be stronger if I primed it with primer, then used cement...yes....those two steps combined is d2855.... but what I was getting at this all weather is doing those 2 parts at once so priming and cement at different times is not happening, so technically it is cheating the code rule.


----------



## chonkie

Not trying to bust ballz with my question. Just one way I see of looking at your statements. Also want to point out that code is minimum. Better is better. If using primer makes a stronger solvent weld, why not use it? Stuff isn't expensive and it doesn't add a lot of time to a job.


----------



## moonapprentice

I agree... I don't buy it though and have learned to work with the stuff they give me and so far it works really well


----------



## rwh

My code doesn't mention orientation of stem on a ball valve. But no one ever points them down


----------



## jeffreyplumber

Im not familiar with your code but if in fact you do need primer. I guarantee you will eventualy get called just cuz a manufacture says you dont need it dosent cut it at least im my area. Ive seen guys have to rip an entire house of copper out for not reaming it. thell make you do it over primer too. Take your chances if you want but realize the risk ! also realiz that you could be liable for a failure ok slim chance but still. sometimes its better to follow code even though its a minor deviation . but i concider this risky


----------



## plumbdrum

moonapprentice said:


> No level... I eye ball it



This tells me everything o need to know about you


----------



## plumbdrum

I guess all these guys must have no common sense and are on a power trip moon boy.


----------



## plumbdrum

I also see another major future problem with your install, now your code may be different but this is my code and I think common sense


----------



## Plumberdood1

We had a plumbing competitor in my area that was using one step glue on PVC and his glue joints were coming apart six months to a year later. 

Thanks to him our inspector made it mandatory we all had to use purple primer. Now I know he was impossible to bid against because he was cheap, maybe the reason he used the one step. 

He is out of business now and ows lots of people money and of course he skipped town.


----------



## plumbdrum

Plumberdood1 said:


> We had a plumbing competitor in my area that was using one step glue on PVC and his glue joints were coming apart six months to a year later.
> 
> Thanks to him our inspector made it mandatory we all had to use purple primer. Now I know he was impossible to bid against because he was cheap, maybe the reason he used the one step.
> 
> He is out of business now and ows lots of people money and of course he skipped town.



That's because he glued it, not solvent welded, our little apprentice does not grasp the concept


----------



## GREENPLUM

So your local inspectors don't care about primer or proper 10' head or change in direction. They do here.


----------



## plumbdrum

Cricket sounds


----------



## Mykeeb33

The end....... hopefully!


----------



## wyrickmech

plumbdrum said:


> I also see another major future problem with your install, now your code may be different but this is my code and I think common sense


 backwater checks are only required when the fixtures are lower than the next down stream manhole lid. Then the groundwork would be split so the check only served the lower fixtures. At least that is code here. Without elevation drawings you can't make this assumption. Also purple primer is hard to make look good but is always a good idea.


----------



## plumbdrum

wyrickmech said:


> backwater checks are only required when the fixtures are lower than the next down stream manhole lid. Then the groundwork would be split so the check only served the lower fixtures. At least that is code here. Without elevation drawings you can't make this assumption. Also purple primer is hard to make look good but is always a good idea.



That's why I quoted that his code may be different, but here in Ma with a lot of old sewer system on combo storm/sewer systems its a must. Also I look at it this way, if mrs jones flushed a tampon up on the second floor or something else to catch the check and she hasn't gone in the ground level , or if this was a ground level condo and the owners were on vacation for 2 weeks, what kind of mess is someone going to come home to? That's why the code in my state is written like that, it makes sense . I've seen heavy rains in my city with some known problematic areas that have had some damage from what I'm talking about except the back water valve was stuck shut due to back pressure from the city sewer not keeping up, a 3 story building with a ground level Apartment had sewage from the upper levels not the city sewer , real mess


----------



## chonkie

wyrickmech said:


> Also purple primer is hard to make look good but is always a good idea.


It isn't that hard to get a good looking joint consistently if you care. All my pvc looks like this. I tap my dauber in the can so i don't get drips. Everyone else i work with has your typical looking messy joints.

I don't even have to think about how much primer to apply to get a consistent look, it just happens now.


----------



## Gargalaxy

Hey chonkie, are you sure you didn't use a q tip for the purple primer? Just kidding, clean job.


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## KoleckeINC

plumbdrum said:


> That's why I quoted that his code may be different, but here in Ma with a lot of old sewer system on combo storm/sewer systems its a must. Also I look at it this way, if mrs jones flushed a tampon up on the second floor or something else to catch the check and she hasn't gone in the ground level , or if this was a ground level condo and the owners were on vacation for 2 weeks, what kind of mess is someone going to come home to? That's why the code in my state is written like that, it makes sense . I've seen heavy rains in my city with some known problematic areas that have had some damage from what I'm talking about except the back water valve was stuck shut due to back pressure from the city sewer not keeping up, a 3 story building with a ground level Apartment had sewage from the upper levels not the city sewer , real mess


Yep! That's why I won't touch em! Everybody wants a 5$ fix for flood prevention. There's nothing like a full overhead sewer. Unlike a flood control, it works when the power is out and doesn't have an expiration date.


----------



## chonkie

Gargalaxy said:


> Hey chonkie, are you sure you didn't use a q tip for the purple primer? Just kidding, clean job.


It's the apprentices job to q-tip my joints for inspections.


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## Flyout95

Moon... You've said a few times on this thread that you should prime the pipe, but don't because this glue it's a short cut. The only short cut in plumbing is the one you take in your car/van/truck to get home faster. 

You're using a home owner special on a professional job.


----------



## Johnny Canuck

moonapprentice said:


> No level... I eye ball it


Wow.


----------



## Johnny Canuck

moonapprentice said:


> So here is ground work. 2 stacks. The 4" stack is cdv for 3" floor drain. 2 local wastes (open sights) are draining to floor drain via 3x2 cross tree. One for softener and other for furnace. Basement bath with tub. Ran 2" to the tub because I barely exceeded my 6' I have to play with for the WI wet vent code through the lav. The two 6" uni-strut bars attached to the outside wall is for the water makeup assembly and water meter. This also gets a deduct meter for irrigation and hosebibs. I still need to run the 1" 1/4" water service over to the wall and complete the sump crock as well. I hammer drilled a hole in outside wall and footing. Threw a tight nail in the hole and ran a string to get basement bath wall. To get my elevation at starting depth connection to sewer i estimated lower and end up about 2" deeper than if i was dead on. It wasnt bad digging so i figured lower depth isnt going to hurt and screw me at the end of the main/branch drains. So today I layed out this house, the house next door and had helper dig out. Also did 2 sewer and water laterals that were both half an hour travel time away from this ground work. 10.5 hour day. I know picture is small but you should be able to zoom in with the file I sent it in as.


I may be looking at the picture wrong but it appears there area couple of places where you reduce the pipe size downstream. Am I seeing that right? Didn't think that was allowed.


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## plumbdrum

Moons been quiet , he must be digging through school notes and manufacture specs to TRY to prove his point, but what do I know? I'm a no common sense , probably a non plumber inspector that every one despises behind my back.


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## Johnny Canuck

Johns_TPS said:


> I may be looking at the picture wrong but it appears there area couple of places where you reduce the pipe size downstream. Am I seeing that right? Didn't think that was allowed.


Am I wrong about this?


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## bartnc37

Holy hell long time no post but I sure hope that moon man is a troll. I plumb under wi code and he is gonna have a rough time on the journeymans if he thinks half the crap he's doing is legal. 
Actually I hope he stays at it, it hack work like his that keeps me busy ripping out and redoing. The only 1 step glue I know of that's allowed under wi code is the flow guard gold one step for cpvc.


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## rjbphd

Johns_TPS said:


> Am I wrong about this?


From the angle of the pix.. u could be right.. but.. if taken more pixs.. you would be deffy right..


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## Grimmeute

I just wanted to comment on the OP about plum bobs. My trick I use off the grid line or string line of a wall is to pick up a small rock or dirt clod hold it at my mark on string and drop into the ditch. where it hits that's my measure point. Gravity is nature's plum bob. Works well for me. Rarely miss my mark unless I got a measurement wrong. 
Had many supervisors and other plumbers laugh, but over time I'm chosen over the other 15 journeymen (some are plum bob users) to go do a underground, because no hammer is needed after walls are up.:thumbup: 
I also prefer to prefab a job if I can get the prints in time and not at the last minute. (some know what I mean by, " at the last minute ". Handed the print and told, here, get this in by noon).


----------



## rjbphd

Grimmeute said:


> I just wanted to comment on the OP about plum bobs. My trick I use off the grid line or string line of a wall is to pick up a small rock or dirt clod hold it at my mark on string and drop into the ditch. where it hits that's my measure point. Gravity is nature's plum bob. Works well for me. Rarely miss my mark unless I got a measurement wrong.
> Had many supervisors and other plumbers laugh, but over time I'm chosen over the other 15 journeymen (some are plum bob users) to go do a underground, because no hammer is needed after walls are up.:thumbup:
> I also prefer to prefab a job if I can get the prints in time and not at the last minute. (some know what I mean by, " at the last minute ". Handed the print and told, here, get this in by noon).


All this and no folding ruler used??


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## plumbdrum

Grimmeute said:


> I just wanted to comment on the OP about plum bobs. My trick I use off the grid line or string line of a wall is to pick up a small rock or dirt clod hold it at my mark on string and drop into the ditch. where it hits that's my measure point. Gravity is nature's plum bob. Works well for me. Rarely miss my mark unless I got a measurement wrong.
> Had many supervisors and other plumbers laugh, but over time I'm chosen over the other 15 journeymen (some are plum bob users) to go do a underground, because no hammer is needed after walls are up.:thumbup:
> I also prefer to prefab a job if I can get the prints in time and not at the last minute. (some know what I mean by, " at the last minute ". Handed the print and told, here, get this in by noon).



That sounds like it could be very accurate measurements. Do me a favor and do it right. Jeeesh


----------



## Grimmeute

plumbdrum said:


> That sounds like it could be very accurate measurements. Do me a favor and do it right. Jeeesh



Tried plum bobs years ago too much hassle imo. My rock methed works well for me and is a lot faster. When you got 20 Mexican Concrete guys pushing me and one helper, trying to lay rock and Vapor barrier on top of you, you got to be fast. got no time digging out a plum bob at every fitting. 
These client we got like to see how fast they can get a building up by throwing as many guys at it they can at once. Yet only want me and a helper to do the plumbing. If I'm lucky I get a helper (a concrete worker) lol.
These clients don't like anyone else from my company so usually by myself.


----------



## sparky

moonapprentice said:


> So here is ground work. 2 stacks. The 4" stack is cdv for 3" floor drain. 2 local wastes (open sights) are draining to floor drain via 3x2 cross tree. One for softener and other for furnace. Basement bath with tub. Ran 2" to the tub because I barely exceeded my 6' I have to play with for the WI wet vent code through the lav. The two 6" uni-strut bars attached to the outside wall is for the water makeup assembly and water meter. This also gets a deduct meter for irrigation and hosebibs. I still need to run the 1" 1/4" water service over to the wall and complete the sump crock as well. I hammer drilled a hole in outside wall and footing. Threw a tight nail in the hole and ran a string to get basement bath wall. To get my elevation at starting depth connection to sewer i estimated lower and end up about 2" deeper than if i was dead on. It wasnt bad digging so i figured lower depth isnt going to hurt and screw me at the end of the main/branch drains. So today I layed out this house, the house next door and had helper dig out. Also did 2 sewer and water laterals that were both half an hour travel time away from this ground work. 10.5 hour day. I know picture is small but you should be able to zoom in with the file I sent it in as.


As much gravel as you have there looks like no digging was necessary at all,when possible I will inline vent everything keeping pipes as shallow as possible


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## sparky

moonapprentice said:


> I was referring to the all weather cement so my statement is in fact true


You are correct,in Kyle we are allowed to use the rain or shine blue glue without using a cleaner or primer,it works really good,plus if you think you missed a joint all you got to do is look up at it and if you see blue you know it is welded,plus it holds really well,but you have just a few seconds to get your fitting set where you want it,got to be fast,so he is correct on his cement that he is using


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## Gargalaxy

Sparky, I'm agree with you but disagree with moon's statement. He's referring as all weather cement to the medium vol CLEAR....not the blue one. (Post#75)



moonapprentice said:


> Glasses?


----------



## plumbdrum

Again gents, I don't care what the glue manufacture says, I care what the pipe and fitting manufacture installation instructions say.


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## plbgbiz

plumbdrum said:


> Again gents, I don't care what the glue manufacture says, I care what the pipe and fitting manufacture installation instructions say.


Yep, glue makers are much more confident in their product than anyone else.


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## plumbdrum

Is it that difficult to understand or is it just me Mr Biz?


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## Michaelcookplum

Always using purple primer is one of the first things I ever learned. Same day I learned to sand every pipe and fitting


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## Gargalaxy

I don't use purple everytime, I'm more on the service side and sometimes prefer use clear primer (when allowed) but not matter what, always use it or Mr. Plumbdrum will fail you....


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## plumbdrum

Gargalaxy said:


> I don't use purple everytime, I'm more on the service side and sometimes prefer use clear primer (when allowed) but not matter what, always use it or Mr. Plumbdrum will fail you....



In Ma we don't require purple primer ( l hate it ) on plumbing, we require it on gas venting. Bottom line , purple , pink , green , whatever, it's primed


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## sparky

plumbdrum said:


> Again gents, I don't care what the glue manufacture says, I care what the pipe and fitting manufacture installation instructions say.


With the blue rain or shine glue,it says on can not to use cleaner/primer,if pipe is dirty I will use cleaner on it but let it dry before applying the blue cement,if you use cleaner with blue glue it seems like the blue glue doesn't want to stick


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## plumbdrum

plumbdrum said:


> Again gents, I don't care what the glue manufacture says, I care what the pipe and fitting manufacture installation instructions say.



Why should I keep repeating myself when I can hit the quote button.


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## sparky

plumbdrum said:


> Why should I keep repeating myself when I can hit the quote button.


I've seen this blue glue used numerous times with no cleaner and it works just fine,held pressure and everything:whistling2:


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## plumbdrum

So it must be installed correctly then. Ha, I think you've been sniffing to much smurf jizz


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## Gargalaxy

Specs say no primer need it .....


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## plbgbiz

plumbdrum said:


> Is it that difficult to understand or is it just me Mr Biz?


No corner exists that someone will not attempt to cut.


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## plbgbiz

sparky said:


> I've seen this blue glue used numerous times with no cleaner and it works just fine,held pressure and everything:whistling2:


Yep, holds great right up to the point where it doesn't.


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## sparky

plbgbiz said:


> Yep, holds great right up to the point where it doesn't.


No different than one step flow guard gold:no:


----------



## plumbdrum

sparky said:


> No different than one step flow guard gold:no:



Yes, totally different chemical compound


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## plumbdrum

Can you please use the yellow 1 step on your next PVC job? I could use a good laugh , or mix it with your blue glue, yellow and blue makes GREEN👍👍


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## moonapprentice

Not in code book, but from a letter of approval bypassing the code. Here ya go


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## plumbdrum

I love the comment of they are not responsible, keep trying moon boy


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## moonapprentice

Well its legal, it's on paper right there, and inspectors say it is legal as well


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## plumbdrum

Is that where you've been all this time ? Your feeble attempt of proving your point does not impress me. Get a letter from the the pipe and fitting manufacture like I've stated before and what your code references and THEN I'll buy your foolishness.


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## plumbdrum

And the the approval is expired. And it's for a specific project. Better luck next time kid


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## moonapprentice

Correct... that one is expired, but has been renewed... I knew you would point that out


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## moonapprentice

Internet Troll

An Internet troll(plumbdrum) , or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.


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## moonapprentice

That was the whole point, if it was legal or not. Not your opinions on the product itself


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## plumbdrum

I'm under my bridge as I'm typing


----------



## plumbdrum

Manufacture instruction of pipe and fittings is all I'm asking for and you keep skirting around it. Have you discovered something and now you can't back it up????


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## moonapprentice

It's for every project. That's just one copy. We already know manufacturer instruction.. I'm not "wrong" and you know it.


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## plumbdrum

Again skirting the question


----------



## moonapprentice

I've been off doing things in life and not on here 24/7 like you. My point is proven. THREAD CLOSED


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## plumbdrum

😀👍👍👍


----------



## wyplumber

I must be important I can post in closed threads. Lol


----------



## plumbdrum

The other trolls will be along soon , sit back moon boy


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## moonapprentice

Lol
..
U get the idea wyplumber😆


----------



## plumbdrum

Just trying to get this to 200 posts, it will be easy with moon boy on here


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## moonapprentice

What do you get for getting to 200?


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## plumbdrum

A can of primer


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## moonapprentice

That response will get you extra points with your fellow lads on here.


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## moonapprentice

Let's get to 300 gramps, phuq it


----------



## plumbdrum

moonapprentice said:


> Let's get to 300 gramps, phuq it



I'm game, just trolling


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## moonapprentice

Weiners balls, balls Weiners balls Weiners balls


----------



## chonkie

I'll add to the goal.


----------



## plumbdrum

chonkie said:


> I'll add to the goal.



And there it is


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## moonapprentice

isn't that referring to sch 40 and not foam core.


----------



## plumbdrum

Ohh boy, really?


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## moonapprentice

Don't you love a troll?


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## chonkie

Ok ...


----------



## moonapprentice

On a serious note, you should do an experiment with it. And see what you think. I totally understand the misconception of your rationality towards all weather, just give it a try cmon. And I'm NOT against primer and cement either


----------



## moonapprentice

It's legal, it works, no problems with it, and yes its against pipe manufacture specs


----------



## Grimmeute

Wonder if it works as well as that no solder flux that came out few years ago? That stuff was worthless. Just flux and heat no solder needed. LOL


----------



## moonapprentice

Don't wonder.... try it


----------



## chonkie

moonapprentice said:


> isn't that referring to sch 40 and not foam core.


Schedule 40 refers to wall thickness, not wall material.


----------



## plumbdrum

chonkie said:


> Schedule 40 refers to wall thickness, not wall material.



Most apprentices know that


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## chonkie

plumbdrum said:


> Most apprentices know that


But not all ... well at least there's one more now.


----------



## moonapprentice

Damn. ... you got me again! Foam core is mostly used around here and if solid wall is being used it's slang term is "sch 40" ....so yes I can understand your point. Nit pickers


----------



## Flyout95

Moon... Listen, one step is hack work. Straight hack.

THREAD CLOSED.


----------



## plumbdrum

Just being a know it all troller


----------



## wyrickmech

Just use the primer there is a difference on the strength. If you have ever had to chip a piece of pipe out of a hub you would know the difference.


----------



## moonapprentice

wyrickmech said:


> Just use the primer there is a difference on the strength. If you have ever had to chip a piece of pipe out of a hub you would know the difference.


I have chipped and peeled on hub with p & c and hub with all weather.


----------



## chonkie

I'm not trying to "get you" ... enlighten maybe. It's not nit picking either, you seemed confused with the terminology so i figured i would try and teach.


----------



## moonapprentice

Didn't mean it that way... that just offended me a little you would think that


----------



## chonkie

moonapprentice said:


> Didn't mean it that way... that just offended me a little you would think that


Why would you get offended when someone tries to tell you something based on a statement like the one quoted below.







moonapprentice said:


> isn't that referring to sch 40 and not foam core.


What about this statement makes me not think that you didn't have a clue about what sch40 was referring to? Sorry for not knowing your pvc slang.


----------



## Flyout95

I CLOSED this thread.


----------



## wyplumber

I saw that fly out... But I am still awesome and btw purple primer for life


----------



## wyplumber

Here is a little remodel we did at a country club. You can see where i cut the 2 inch and how out of alignment it was. 

But the joints not being primed came apart real easy.

You can see the test tee i put in for the bathrooms we re piped. 

I never could get the owner to let me rip the rest of the pvc out he says next winter will be when he remodels the rest of the place.


----------



## wyplumber

sparky said:


> With the blue rain or shine glue,it says on can not to use cleaner/primer,if pipe is dirty I will use cleaner on it but let it dry before applying the blue cement,if you use cleaner with blue glue it seems like the blue glue doesn't want to stick



i lost my ass on this once... well i did the work the boss took the kick in the shorts. 

i told an inspector that rain or shine glue can said not to use primer, boy i should have read the can better. 

"No primer needed on non-pressure DWV, up through 6” diameter where local codes permit.'~~~is what the can really says.

Next thing out of his mouth was now where in our local code did you read that you could use that glue without primer..... it was a day i will not forget.


----------



## sparky

Flyout95 said:


> I CLOSED this thread.


You thru reading that k-50 manual yet??!!!:laughing:


----------



## sparky

wyplumber said:


> i lost my ass on this once... well i did the work the boss took the kick in the shorts.
> 
> i told an inspector that rain or shine glue can said not to use primer, boy i should have read the can better.
> 
> "No primer needed on non-pressure DWV, up through 6” diameter where local codes permit.'~~~is what the can really says.
> 
> Next thing out of his mouth was now where in our local code did you read that you could use that glue without primer..... it was a day i will not forget.


My code actually says that you can use rain or shine with no primer:yes:


----------



## plumbdrum

sparky said:


> My code actually says that you can use rain or shine with no primer:yes:



Your code is written with crayon so I guess anything is possible.


----------



## sparky

plumbdrum said:


> Your code is written with crayon so I guess anything is possible.


Dang liberals from MA wrote it:laughing::laughing:


----------



## plumbdrum

The politicians are liberal, I am certainly not. And the code would certainly not be written in crayon.


----------



## wyrickmech

Flyout95 said:


> I CLOSED this thread.



I think you have to put a picture of a big padlock. Lol


----------



## wyplumber

wyrickmech said:


> I think you have to put a picture of a big padlock. Lol


Don't let this secret out but this padlock will reopen any threads you want.


----------



## plumbdrum

Where's the one step glue guy been?


----------



## rwh

Moon apprentice...where are you


----------



## chonkie

plumbdrum said:


> Where's the one step glue guy been?


You scared him away. Maybe he's off somewhere learning how to use qtips.


----------



## plumbdrum

It made for damn good ole bickering.


----------



## BOBBYTUCSON

jmc12185 said:


> That sounds like precision right there. Lol


lol yup


----------



## Mykeeb33

Wow! This thread has gone way off the rails since I started it.
Lol


----------



## plumbdrum

I put 1 step glue on everything, even my toast.


----------



## moonapprentice

Wth


----------



## GAN

plumbdrum said:


> I put 1 step glue on everything, even my toast.




Another twist in the road......... Not quite one step, although Cresline at one time had a Sch. 40 with a surface that more of a matt finish, on their glue can it talked about with use the their fitting, pipe & glue under 4" DWV primer was not needed, I believe the glue was white.

Illinois just a few years ago approved a glue for co-mingling ABS & PVC. The only way you can really tell the "approved" glue is by looking at the ASTM number. It has to be "ASTMD-3138-2011. Tel see this you need to refer to the "approved materials" section of the code book and reference approved glues for ABS & PVC.

http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/077/07700890ZZ9996aaR.html


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## plumbdrum

,1 step glue 🤣🤣


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Flyout95

Ahh... good old moon.... Still think he's an apprentice?


----------

