# Purple on CPVC...



## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

I was always taught that equals poison. However, we heard from two inspectors that after a curtain year the changed the formula so it was a health hazard, and it is at their discretion as to require replacement since the last permit.

When it comes to cpvc we have one policy.... it all goes.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Per our code, CPVC only needs cement as long as the cement is yellow in color. Otherwise, purple primer shall be used.

I haven't seen the orange CPVC cement in a while.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

OpenSights said:


> I was always taught that equals poison. However, we heard from two inspectors that after a curtain year the changed the formula so it was a health hazard, and it is at their discretion as to require replacement since the last permit.
> 
> When it comes to cpvc we have one policy.... it all goes.














Can you elaborate? What are you saying, that your company policy is 'it all goes.'? What does that mean, that it all goes in the garbage? What is poison? PP on CPVC pipe and fittings? I've never heard any of this before.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Tommy plumber said:


> Can you elaborate? What are you saying, that your company policy is 'it all goes.'? What does that mean, that it all goes in the garbage? What is poison? PP on CPVC pipe and fittings? I've never heard any of this before.


According to our inspector years ago PP had a nerve agent and using it on potable systems was a big no no. But some time ago they changed the formula so it's not dangerous. If there was an inspection after the change then cpvc with PP they don't make us rip it all out.

I really like our inspector. He's tough, by the book but is still fair with those "what else could we do" situations. He also helps us out by either going through a job when we have different views on what needs to be when dealing with stubborn HO's. And somehow, shows up on the job site when we see dangerous code violations being covered up by drywallers. Last summer we had a rental fail the landlord inspection. 

I personally don't like cpvc because it just seems so brittle to work with and it seems to burst easier than copper when frozen. I don't know of any plumbers around here that use it, generally only HO's. It's just not a good fit with our climate.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

OpenSights said:


> Last summer we had a rental fail the landlord inspection.


Finish your damn thought! 

Was trying to write this while being distracted by kid, puppy, wife and mom calling....

So we brought our inspector in there to how involved we need to get. PP on cpvc, had to rip it all out, pvc/abs with wrong fittings was an obvious one, 2" whole house vent through the roof, but we had 1/2" copper buried in the walls feeding a second floor bath. He didn't make us rip it out because of the amount of work needed to replace it. Built in custom cabinets and some other stuff.


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

My can of Oatey Flowguard Gold states to use primer, purple or clear doesn't matter since the dye is the only difference. The can does also state that it "may be used without primer where local codes permit". I've always used purple primer and have never been told it was wrong or makes poison being used on cpvc. I would like to think that if it did, there would be some pretty big warnings on the can of cement.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Quick google look...

MSDS: http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/engineering/ElChemInventory/Merged Files BC/Purple Primer.pdf

Getting ready to take my kid places today. Working tomorrow. Some dumbass sparky screwed us by dry firing a heater on us and we have no other time next week to fix it. I'll see if I can dig up more later.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

OpenSights said:


> Quick google look...
> 
> MSDS: http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/engineering/ElChemInventory/Merged Files BC/Purple Primer.pdf
> 
> Getting ready to take my kid places today. Working tomorrow. Some dumbass sparky screwed us by dry firing a heater on us and we have no other time next week to fix it. I'll see if I can dig up more later.


Have never seen anything formally on PP, removed from shelves because of hazard.

Heck about anything we use is hazardous.. The PDF is a basic it can kill you warning, but the product is still approved..

Illinois just in the past few years started allowing specific glues to be used without primer and for "co-mingling" plastics (ABS & PVC).


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## mtfallsmikey (Jan 11, 2010)

Saw the Oatey glue/primer combo-in-a-can at Blowe's, anybody used it yet?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

FlowGaurd gold glue, the only 1 step glue I allow.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Seems like the standards are being relaxed some. Illinois will even allow co-mingling.

g) Plastic Pipe. Joints between plastic pipe and non-plastic material shall be made only with an appropriate type adaptor as provided in Section 890.320(l) and 890.330(g). 

1) Plastic-Commingling. There shall be no commingling of plastic materials within the same plumbing system except through the use of proper adaptors or approved solvent as listed in Appendix A.Table A, for connections transitioning from one material to another, only. 

2) Plastic Pipe. Plastic pipe shall not be installed in any tunnel or chase that contains uninsulated hot water, hot air or steam piping that causes the ambient air temperature in the tunnel or chase to exceed 180 degrees Fahrenheit.

B) Polyvinyl chloride (PVC) pipe shall be installed with solvent-welded or flanged joints only. The pipe shall not be threaded. Transition to metallic or other piping shall be made with the use of adaptor fittings. The fittings shall be molded from PVC. The primer and solvent cement used shall be in accordance with the* manufacturer's recommendation for PVC piping. 
*

Here is an Excerpt from an ICC admin.

_Proposal P164-12 for development of the 2015 IPC was successful. The 2015 IPC will allow the solvent cement joints for PVC piping used for DWV piping in non-pressure applications AND 4 inches or smaller in size, to not require primer to be used on joint surfaces prior to solvent cementing._
_According to the proposal, there was testing by NSF that indicated that PVC joints assembled without primer had sufficient strength for the application (4 inch and smaller, non-pressure DWV service)_
_The solvent cement still has to comply with the ASTM number (in the code) for solvent cementing PVC pipe joints._

_A corresponding proposal for the 2015 IRC was also successful._
_Until the 2015 I-codes are adopted by a jurisdication, the above "allowance" is NOT retro-active to projects covered by older codes. The allowance could be requested under IPC Section 105.2 (IRC Section 104.11)where the code official has the ability to approve the allowance. But the code official is not obligated to approve any such request._


I can see more changes coming such as no primers for gravity based systems compared to pressure systems. Look at PVC pressure rated compared to foam coreor sch. 80The old Cresline classic was a little more aggressive glue which may not have stated a primer was required when using their product (pipe & solvent). (I am still trying to pin Cresline down)


Here is a real life article about the use of primers which points to primers may actually make the joints weaker (see conclusions in the article). So bottom line is it a sales gimmick if you are using clean debris free pipe or not.


https://www.plumbingsupply.com/the-great-pvc-primer-debate.html

Finally tracked down excerpts from a Cresline Classic label (green & white label, white colored glue).


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## mtfallsmikey (Jan 11, 2010)

How has the combo ABS/PVC cement worked out since it's inception? Never used it, we had to do MIP/FIP, or Fernco


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

mtfallsmikey said:


> How has the combo ABS/PVC cement worked out since it's inception? Never used it, we had to do MIP/FIP, or Fernco




ABS is getting real hard to find in my area, even adapters.

No hub couplings still require a "raised bead adapter" in Illinois, which puts you back to finding the ABS fitting.

From the few times I have seen the glue used used in the field, it appears to hold extremely well.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

mtfallsmikey said:


> How has the combo ABS/PVC cement worked out since it's inception? Never used it, we had to do MIP/FIP, or Fernco














I was working upstate NY a while back. Replaced a bathtub {mom's condo} on 3rd floor. The bldg. DWV was piped in ABS. As I removed the old tub, the overflow just fell over!........

So I cut the wood flooring {under footprint of tub so I can hide it} and see that the horizontal 2" waste from the tub came unglued from a 3" sanitary tee side inlet {which picked up the W/C and lav}. I go to home depot but they don't sell any ABS, just PVC. So as I scan for ABS cement, I can't find any. I'm like Oh NO! I'm in trouble. But then I pick up a can of Oatey PVC cement and read the small print. It says for ABS or PVC. Wheeewww! Thank God. I think it was a milky white cement. Anyway, I glued the waste pipe back and all was good again in Oz.

I used the transition cement under a trailer here in FL once. The trailer had ABS but I was transitioning to PVC. The ABS/PVC transition cement was green and it worked well.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

I used the transition glue on a customer supplied tub that came with a PVC drain and and I had to glue to ABS, no news is always good news. I use it on PVC wash machine boxes when I glue to the ABS standpipe. Kind of a cool color green.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Cpvc pipe is total dog crap and really becomes so brittle that I 
wont touch the stuff.... 

I dont think it should be used anywhere in new construction.. even in 
areas of the country where copper is eaten by salt water they could use PEX instead...

I use it only on the t+p drain off a water heater because it is dirt cheap
and it does work fine as a drain only......

Thank god for shark bite fittings just for the ability to
convert over to copper or pex when I run into the junk....


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> Cpvc pipe is total dog crap and really becomes so brittle that I
> wont touch the stuff....
> 
> I dont think it should be used anywhere in new construction.. even in
> ...













Houses here that are being built are all piped with CPVC for the water piping. I just an electronic leak search yesterday {Saturday} and the home is all copper water piping. But the homes that are being built are all CPVC. 

They even glue fittings under the slab! 

I was taught that was a big no-no when I was starting out in the trade in the early 1990's doing new construction. No fittings under the slab; even our code book from back then states that if you made a repair on a water line under a slab, the fittings had to be brazed.

But these guys today are gluing fittings under the slabs in CPVC and they have to pressure test the ground rough to pass their first rough inspection. And there is no poly sleeve required around the CPVC coming up out of the slab, just stub up and then the concrete is poured right around and against the CPVC.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> Houses here that are being built are all piped with CPVC for the water piping. I just an electronic leak search yesterday {Saturday} and the home is all copper water piping. But the homes that are being built are all CPVC.
> 
> They even glue fittings under the slab!
> 
> ...



So are you bragging or complaining about this Tommy??? 

CPVC is junk anyway and That sounds like an absolutely horrible way to pipe a slab house to me.
I dont think I could sleep with myself if I half-assed something like that
there ought to be a special place in hell for the guys who have to be that cheap assed to install stuff that badly... 
You and me both know that some day those hot joints in the slab will shift and leak....
---------------------------------

We did slab homes here back in the early 80s and I ran L copper in the concrete all the time... I decided to go the extra mile and installed everything underground in 100% aramaflex.....It probably cost us an extra 100 bucks a house but I did it because I never wanted to hear back from anyone down the road 5-10 years out expecting me to eat a slab leak....:no::no:.

those houses are pushing 40 years old and we still have not heard of anyone with a slab leak....... 

Does this mean I get to go to some sort of plumber heaven.?? 
Its Doubtful


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Never CPVC under the slab. Always copper and brazed joints only if needed. Always better to loop.

A lot of homes currently being piped above ground with CPVC in my area. Back when I was still in the field, I ran work for a management/building company who wanted things as cheap as possible. We did 30 or so 4 family adaptable apartments with CPVC.

The biggest issue we had was conversion at mechanical joints. Got that taken care of by always using a CPVC male into a copper female. Now to date there have been no major issues with these. (That was before transitional fittings were made)

Of course if the CPVC is not protected against UV rays, your going to have issues and as stated never underground. It is harder to get looking good no doubt.

Is copper better, of course. Are you sure it is not the installer........:whistling2:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> *So are you bragging or complaining about this Tommy???
> *


 











I'm complaining. I am lamenting the low standard that my trade has sunk to. I'm not needed to replace an angle stop that is compression with a flex supply line. Who wants to pay me what a licensed plumber charges when any nitwit can replace an angle stop and slap a flex supply line in?

99% of my customers are over the age of {55} years of age. They perhaps could have done these repairs years ago, but not now as they get older.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> I'm complaining. I am lamenting the low standard that my trade has sunk to. I'm not needed to replace an angle stop that is compression with a flex supply line. Who wants to pay me what a licensed plumber charges when any nitwit can replace an angle stop and slap a flex supply line in?
> 
> 99% of my customers are over the age of {55} years of age. They perhaps could have done these repairs years ago, but not now as they get older.


I know what you are saying......I went out late today and had to install a new flex line coming off the hot side of a water heater that was spraying water... It was installed up into a nasty looking cpvc fitting..... 

I basically cut it all out and installed a new SS flex line and a sharkbite male adapter on the cpvc and was done with it all in 5 minutes... Charged them $150 and was gone ....

The owner was afraid to do it himself but once he saw me do it ........:laughing:


I dont plan on getting good at jack hammering concrete floors and becoming a leak fixer of cpvc pipes anytime soon just to keep busy..... .thats not in my future either


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Tommy plumber said:


> I'm complaining. I am lamenting the low standard that my trade has sunk to. I'm not needed to replace an angle stop that is compression with a flex supply line. Who wants to pay me what a licensed plumber charges when any nitwit can replace an angle stop and slap a flex supply line in?
> 
> 99% of my customers are over the age of {55} years of age. They perhaps could have done these repairs years ago, but not now as they get older.


Here's picture of my plumbing list for a customer, I know he could have done it himself 5-10 years ago. Some people will do their own plumbing, I do all the trades work at my house. Don't worry, the new generation of pu$$y computer geeks won't be able to turn wrenches and a lot of dads aren't teaching kids the basics anymore.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Forgot to say I'm booked a week or two out. Plenty of work to go around.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Debo22 said:


> Here's picture of my plumbing list for a customer, I know he could have done it himself 5-10 years ago. Some people will do their own plumbing, I do all the trades work at my house. *Don't worry, the new generation of pu$$y computer geeks won't be able to turn wrenches and a lot of dads aren't teaching kids the basics anymore*.



Yea, I guess you are right, I forgot about the pussy computer geeks and the cell phone nerds that cannot look up from their phones for anything..... I changed an element yesterday and both the tennant and landlord never looked up from their phones the whole hour I was there dealing
with the heater....

theres nothing to worry about


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Reminds me of this Pure Michigan commercial...


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> Yea, I guess you are right, I forgot about the pussy computer geeks and the cell phone nerds that cannot look up from their phones for anything..... I changed an element yesterday and both the tennant and landlord never looked up from their phones the whole hour I was there dealing
> with the heater....
> 
> theres nothing to worry about


 










Yes. There are always those people who can't hit a nail straight to save their lives that will still need to call a plumber.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Tommy plumber said:


> I'm complaining. I am lamenting the low standard that my trade has sunk to. I'm not needed to replace an angle stop that is compression with a flex supply line. Who wants to pay me what a licensed plumber charges when any nitwit can replace an angle stop and slap a flex supply line in?
> 
> 99% of my customers are over the age of {55} years of age. They perhaps could have done these repairs years ago, but not now as they get older.




A couple of years ago on this site I got my head chewed off for saying that compression stops was amateur and hackish. Licensed plumbers on this site are using them all the time and I made a point that we are making it easy for anyone. I agree with you 100% Tommy, if we as licensed plumbers keep taking the easy way out, what good are we? As far as cpvc goes, I have no issue with the product if it is installed to the manufacturer installation instructions ( expansion, support, correct fire stopping) I think it can look like a professional piping system like copper and if installed properly will give you years of a trouble free plumbing system. I hate the looks of pex, while I understand the advantages of the system.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I ran into this mess today ..... cpvc coming out of the concrete buried in a wall at a 45 degree angle.... sweet..... 

the fitting is leaking on the bottom of the tee where the key -hole saw is pointing....hot water side.... 

*the guy that did this work ought to have his balls cut off...*

I get to figure out how to repair this mess tomorrow after th insurance company looks over the damage 



https://goo.gl/photos/3TbyAp3QfFdjnUqc8


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> *the guy that did this work ought to have his balls cut off...*
> 
> 
> 
> https://goo.gl/photos/3TbyAp3QfFdjnUqc8


NO! It's "he needs to be dragged out into the street and shot!" Slightly more PC.... get with the times old man! Speak of the removal of genitalia is so last century.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

OpenSights said:


> NO! It's "he needs to be dragged out into the street and shot!" Slightly more PC.... get with the times old man! Speak of the removal of genitalia is so last century.




hmmmmmmmm........How about I string him up by his balls first 
and then shoot him dead then drag him around for a while..

is that more socially acceptable??


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I fixed the problem today with shark bite fittings and 
aquapex pipe..... I dont know what I would have done without the 
sharkbite fittings....

I got the work done fast but thought it does not look any better 
than it did before I started..... ........ 

Its like putting lipstick on a pig.....or polishing a turd.........


https://goo.gl/photos/khYf2WobJ3gP2GTx9


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