# Chicago plumbing lead and oakum joints..?



## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

I was just reading an article in "plumbing engineer" page 22, by Timothy Allinson. He wrote that in chicago they are still using lead and oakum joints and that you must use 5ft lengths of pipe and 10ft pipes are not allowed. I am guessing this is for commercial or underground work....? and if this is true... Why...? I have done lead joints before on repairs and house vents but never entire jobs... WTF why would anyone think this is good, we have the strictest laws regarding lead in our drinking water, but when it comes to leaving it in the ground no problem...? lead bends...? if they have cesspools or leaching fields or for that matter even sewers the lead will deteriorate and make its way to what ever treatment system you have and eventually make its way in the ground beneath your house... contaminating the ground water and if you have sewers it will contaminate the final discharge location... lead is known to be bad in every way... how could it still be codified.... just seems a little arcane.


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## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

it actually seems to directly conflict with the low lead law. I do not think it conflicts with the wording of the low lead laws, but it definitely conflicts with the actual name of the "lead free" law. example...--->lead bend, lead and oakum joint these items do not appear to be lead free...? and I was wondering as a side thought if an inspector said use lead bends and poured joints could I throw the federal low lead law in his face... now i know that is a thought experiment that is better left alone as a thought experiment. probably not a good idea to test this out on an inspector that you are talking to while inspecting a job. But I feel that putting these lead items in are a bad idea. period. I think I mat be right here, but if what the code says is what the code is.... or is it... if it directly conflicts with a federal law..... umph ponderable...?


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## CT18 (Sep 18, 2012)

Our jobs are to install per code, engineering and design deal with regulations. The piping that you are installing and its connections have already been approved in the submittal process. I worked in Chicago for a couple years back in 2010 on a 43 story building. I remember my first site visit i saw a pallet full of lead ingots, it was crazy.

I am not sure if lead joints are used on underground or not, I was drawing the mechanical piping on that project. In the building was lead oakum right to DWV cooper.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Push gaskets underground, lead anything commercial or residential over 3 stories.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

And we can use 10' lengths.


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

I live downstate, so I'm not sure. I think it is above three stories requires C.I. with lead and oakum in Chicago. I know flyout knows. However, how is it in violation of lead free laws? Those apply to the potable water side not the dwv side. So unless you make a habit of drinking water from the building drain, you will be safe from lead.


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

Sorry flyout you posted while I was typing


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## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

rwh said:


> I live downstate, so I'm not sure. I think it is above three stories requires C.I. with lead and oakum in Chicago. I know flyout knows. However, how is it in violation of lead free laws? Those apply to the potable water side not the dwv side. So unless you make a habit of drinking water from the building drain, you will be safe from lead.


yes yes I really love waste flavored water. I here you that the law is for potable water..


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Chicago is a labor town, which is nice cause lead is labor intensive. But it sucks cause it's heavy and labor intensive...


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Lead, gaskets, clamps, plastic, does it really matter? If it's the code and the company you're bidding against has to do it the same way, who cares?


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

In the article, Tim asks (the IPC) "does have a requirement for a cleanout at the base of stack, but I honestly don’t know if that means the cleanout at the vertical to horizontal offset, or above the floor. I’m sure someone who works in an IPC governed jurisdiction will read this and enlighten me, but I believe they mean above the floor."
Any of you IPC guys wish to chime in?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Flyout95 said:


> Chicago is a labor town, which is nice cause lead is labor intensive. But it sucks cause it's heavy and labor intensive...




I dont understand it very much either because Chicago is like stuck in the stone age when it comes to this subject....


I dont think even the inspectors really know why they are still using cast iron on everything..... I think we know that basically its all Politics...Chicago style politics....


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

They say it's for fire prevention.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Flyout95 said:


> They say it's for fire prevention.


Same excuse here in Ma. Unions are strong here and continually lobby the board for no PVC. Our new governor is having all departments review their current regulations, we will see if any changes come.


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## CT18 (Sep 18, 2012)

Flyout95 said:


> They say it's for fire prevention.


Thats what i was told when i went to Chicago to work. I am from Michigan and thought we had tough Unions, nothing like Chicago. Love it.

It did have me confused when i was drawing for the fitters and they had med gas and all natural gas lines. Here in Michigan plumbers do med gas and all comfort heat nat. gas.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

CT18 said:


> Thats what i was told when i went to Chicago to work. I am from Michigan and thought we had tough Unions, nothing like Chicago. Love it.
> 
> It did have me confused when i was drawing for the fitters and they had med gas and all natural gas lines. Here in Michigan plumbers do med gas and all comfort heat nat. gas.


That's cause local 597 it's a monster, and they get what they want.


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## CT18 (Sep 18, 2012)

Flyout95 said:


> That's cause local 597 it's a monster, and they get what they want.


Plus all those Plumbers are busy pouring lead joints.


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## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

as for pvc in the ground the only reason I do not like it is because it is technically a plastic and generally once in the ground there is a 50 /50 chance it is going to stay there for ever, pvc is not as good for the environment as cast. and technically we all know cast is better than pvc, and actually after doing the manhattan job and few under grounds recently, I will now be quoting all new construction in cast... it is just way to easy, they have amazing fittings like that starter fitting a 4x2x4x4 toilet drain, vent stack combi fitting... great stuff and when fitting together if is not exactly what you want, no problem take it apart and recut... no with pvc once connected you are married to it, and the way the fitting with no-hub do not recess in to the fittings they can get tighter against the wall when in that tricky spot that needs care. also is is easier to fix any leaks(when servicing), and is defiantly a better product as far as life span goes.and no glue on your hands or on the floor or no where...


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## CT18 (Sep 18, 2012)

I ran all the underground sanitary and storm at Ford Field in Detroit and it is 24" pvc, talk about glue on your hands. We used the white glue in the gallon size with the giant dauber. We were slinging that glue everywhere and each joint pushed in different. We came up with a set number to push each joint so we could figure our take offs.


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## seank89 (Dec 17, 2015)

@CT18 What did you use to pull the joints together? For 24" I'd think a push bar was a bit inadequate. 


Sean


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

seank89 said:


> @CT18 What did you use to pull the joints together? For 24" I'd think a push bar was a bit inadequate.
> 
> 
> Sean


The operator uses his bucket. Or a comealong works also.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

jnohs said:


> and is defiantly a better product as far as life span goes.


Had a locator out inspecting a line I'm planning on tying into at a commercial kitchen the other day. 5 year old CI. 15' down line from the clean out they hit mud. Cast iron, not always the best choice.


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

jnohs said:


> as for pvc in the ground the only reason I do not like it is because it is technically a plastic and generally once in the ground there is a 50 /50 chance it is going to stay there for ever, pvc is not as good for the environment as cast. and technically we all know cast is better than pvc, and actually after doing the manhattan job and few under grounds recently, I will now be quoting all new construction in cast... it is just way to easy, they have amazing fittings like that starter fitting a 4x2x4x4 toilet drain, vent stack combi fitting... great stuff and when fitting together if is not exactly what you want, no problem take it apart and recut... no with pvc once connected you are married to it, and the way the fitting with no-hub do not recess in to the fittings they can get tighter against the wall when in that tricky spot that needs care. also is is easier to fix any leaks(when servicing), and is defiantly a better product as far as life span goes.and no glue on your hands or on the floor or no where...


When you are bidding all your new construction jobs in hubbed cast iron, hope everyone your bidding against isn't using PVC.


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## seank89 (Dec 17, 2015)

Usually that is spelled out in the specs. I don't know if I've ever run across a decent sized job through a GC that didn't have a list of approved materials. If the job doesn't have PVC approved but it's approved in the municipality we would give it as an alternate add but to be honest so does everyone else. 

Sean


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

seank89 said:


> Usually that is spelled out in the specs. I don't know if I've ever run across a decent sized job through a GC that didn't have a list of approved materials. If the job doesn't have PVC approved but it's approved in the municipality we would give it as an alternate add but to be honest so does everyone else.
> 
> Sean


Around here we usually have the opposite problem. A lot of out of state engineers will put PVC on the print for a commercial building but it's not allowed by code in Massachusetts. 
You also have to be careful in New Hampshire. As a state PVC is allowed but there are a handful of cities that will not allow it underground.


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## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

jmc12185 said:


> When you are bidding all your new construction jobs in hubbed cast iron, hope everyone your bidding against isn't using PVC.


Other plumbers and there quotes do not affect my bidding process, I bid it the way I want it.... if I don't get the job, oh well. If I get the job even better.

And the price to me is a non sequitur, I try to charge as much as possible every time.


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

With cast known to rot u.g., what is the reason for it being mandatory under the floor? Here it is used for sound deadening reasons in walls,(library's,etc) if specs require. And code if a drain will have water over 140 degrees. Just wondering the reason. Politics and union reasons? Not liking plastic "leaching" underground? Thinking cast is supirior to pvc? School me on this.


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## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

I am no environmental specialist but to me cast is a clean product that can be leftin the ground to rot... pvc Poly Vinyl Chloride is probably not good to be left in the ground to rot. that is just how i feel on that. plus here you can not put pvc in the ground ne way so the code here lines up with how I feel.


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

I was wondering WHY you cannot put pvc in the ground. Plumb drums recent thread on plumbing articles pretty much sums it up. Just wondering what Chicago's REASONING is.


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## BOBBYTUCSON (Feb 8, 2013)

also , plastics properties are extremely toxic when burning. that probably has alot to do with it. i just think its funny as **** when they are allowed to run fire supression piping in plastic lol


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## CT18 (Sep 18, 2012)

Flyout95 said:


> The operator uses his bucket. Or a comealong works also.


Those were the tools. We would use riser clamps and come-alongs when the backhoe was not in use.


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