# Trap Primer required? I didn't think so...



## Young Plumber

Just got required by a bellevue, wa inspector to add a trap seal primer to a condensate waste receptor...has anyone else run into this? I thought that the condensate maintains the trap seal just fine... any thoughts?


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## Ron

Code reference 1007.1

Note 'automatic means'

This might be what he is talking about, being here in Oregon, our codes are about the same, look it up.


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## ranman

does it condensate year around?


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## Tommy plumber

Looks like ya might have to pucker up and kiss the inspector's rear end.


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## Airgap

Tell him the condensate will keep it primed....:whistling2:


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## Redwood

Say why does that heater smell like Shiot...:whistling2:

I've never seen this condition myself...:laughing:

Cept maybe a few times...

Why don't you indulge him and call it a lesson...


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## Ron

There is nothing wrong in asking your inspector for the code reference he is referring to.


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## Young Plumber

*Thanks*

Yeah, I learned about the Inspector Pucker early on in my apprenticeship...and yes, it condenses year round, maybe not as much in the summer, but enough to beat evaporation


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## SlickRick

Not as much in the summer? Where do you live?


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## Redwood

> Just got required by a *bellevue, wa* inspector to add a trap seal primer to a condensate waste receptor


I think he said where...:laughing:


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## SlickRick

That is on this continent? Right?


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## Redwood

slickrick said:


> That is on this continent? Right?


Yea in the land of UPC I believe...:whistling2:


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## d78coots

put a Trap Guard on it.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

You make him show him what he is talking about in the code book. You make him G dammmit.:laughing:


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## ILPlumber

d78coots said:


> put a Trap Guard on it.


Not an automatic means of keeping the trap primed in my book. Trap primers are good for the service guys anyways...


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## d78coots

Matt said:


> Not an automatic means of keeping the trap primed in my book. Trap primers are good for the service guys anyways...


I was...ahem....being sarcastic. Sorry.


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## U666A

d78coots said:


> put a Trap Guard on it.


Trap guard
Looked in Ontario Building Code Section 7 and cannot understand why an inspector would bock at this.

"those who can't do, teach; those who can't teach, inspect" lol that is my personal quote but feel free to use it within your own jurisdiction!  


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## 6th Density

What is your developed length of pipe run to the drain? I sold the "Core" once on the fact that by the time the water reached the drain, you'd have nothing but vapor (granted they were more than 40 feet and up to 100 feet of pipe). Not to mention that the damn drains were surrounding a pool!!!!:thumbup:

Trap Guards to the rescue!!!:yes:


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## U666A

Argued with an inspector once about using a trap guard. He must have been in cahoots with the builder, trying to make the outfit I work for take a bath. Ended up running 475' of tubing... Wonder if that primer has seen a squirt yet??? Lol


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## PlumberDave

There is no way out your are in Bellevue, 100% by the book no questions. Yes you are required to have a trap primer 2006 UPC page 132 1007.0 Trap Seal Protection. Bellevue is a bit insane with the book. Got called for air gap discharge to a Dishwasher tee was told it had to go to the Disposal barb which on this sink was above the discharge of the air gap. He stood there while I made the correction. Changed it back when I ran the dishwasher and the air gap squirted.


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## 6th Density

PlumberDave said:


> There is no way out your are in Bellevue, 100% by the book no questions. Yes you are required to have a trap primer 2006 UPC page 132 1007.0 Trap Seal Protection. Bellevue is a bit insane with the book. Got called for air gap discharge to a Dishwasher tee was told it had to go to the Disposal barb which on this sink was above the discharge of the air gap. He stood there while I made the correction. Changed it back when I ran the dishwasher and the air gap squirted.



Our code in Florida makes it a bit vague. Leaves it up to the AHJ to decide!

Code 1002.4 "...Where a trap seal is subject to loss by evaporation, a trap seal primer valve shall be installed..."

Talk about a set-up for...
In my area, you can get away "without" installing trap primers on floor drains in a commercial kitchen area. The floors are going to be cleaned daily by a hose reel.
But for those gang restrooms in the same restaurant, you have to have trap primers for the floor drains. One would think that they would mop it at least once a day. Yet mop water drainage doesn't count! Go figure!?!

To top that all off, sometimes the spec's go above and beyond the local and state code and ask "for trap primers on all floor drains." Talk about a bummer if you miss that on the estimate.
:whistling2:

Point being, is that sometimes the "absolute" law/code is better than having a "vague" one.

Cheers!


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## OldSchool

Up here we dont need a trap seal primer if we use condensate from both a condensating furnace and AC unit.... this allows the trap to be primed year round.


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## Pipe Rat

A little off topic but PlumberDave, how in the world can your airgap be below the disposer connection? Your airgap should be above the flood level rim of the *SINK *


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## PlumberDave

Pipe Rat said:


> A little off topic but PlumberDave, how in the world can your airgap be below the disposer connection? Your airgap should be above the flood level rim of the *SINK *


The left bowl is only 4" deep with a ISE disposer puts the the hose barb of the disposer at 8"+/- below the sink. The discharge leg of the air gap is at 8"+/-and pointing at an angle down. There was no way to get it level more or less right.

I gotta say this was a job I was making right behind one of our "TECH's". The company was fined the tech was fined no permit no license water repipe in a real tight butted district. I was going in under a gun, PO'd homeowner, inspector and boss.


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## Frank Olivas

I am having a similar situation regarding floor sinks and trap primers, I am starting to change my mind about this. I think we should have them on floor sinks. Use "what if" situations here. What if the kitchen closes over the holidays, maybe they shutdown for a few days for repairs or renovations? Could the trap seal be evaporate?


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## Mississippiplum

Frank Olivas said:


> I am having a similar situation regarding floor sinks and trap primers, I am starting to change my mind about this. I think we should have them on floor sinks. Use "what if" situations here. What if the kitchen closes over the holidays, maybe they shutdown for a few days for repairs or renovations? Could the trap seal be evaporate?


The trap seal ain't gonna evaporate over the course of a few days, a few weeks yea, possibility.


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## Greenguy

Mississippiplum said:


> The trap seal ain't gonna evaporate over the course of a few days, a few weeks yea, possibility.


It may not evaporate but it could get siphoned off, I've seen it happen before, nothing worse then coming in the next day to sewer gas smell.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Just tell them to hire a guy to come by and pour a gallon of water down the trap every week!!! I bet they will love that. Lol


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## Greenguy

Screw that pour the used cooking oil down will slow the evap  and


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## Plumbus

Greenguy said:


> Screw that pour the used cooking oil down will slow the evap  and


Cooking oil will work, but RV antifreeze might be a little more user friendly on the drainage system.


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## GREENPLUM

this might help... http://www.trapguard.com/

Trap Guard® solves the problem of infrequently used drains by eliminating the need for a trap primer while preventing the emission of sewer gases and the backup of raw sewage into living or work areas. It is much less expensive, much more effective and much simpler to maintain than a trap primer.


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## Greenguy

Plumbus said:


> Cooking oil will work, but RV antifreeze might be a little more user friendly on the drainage system.


On the system yes, on the environment no.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

What about the stuff you put in a waterless urinal. ???


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## user8031

Any trap seal subject to evaporation or loss of trap seal shall be equipped with a trap seal primer. Least that is code here in Michigan.

No, "human" trap primers (pouring water every few days) does not count either.


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## billy_awesome

Jackhammer the floor up! run a primer line to a basin!.........or put in yer trap guard LOL

Same rules up here in Ontario. Any floor drain must be primed with a YEAR ROUND priming device, or install trap guard. I always like to use a HRV.


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## Widdershins

It being Bellevue and all, it's best to just give Tullis and his guys what they want and move on.

I did my last job in Bellevue last week -- Mark couldn't find anything wrong with my work, so he started picking on the HVAC contractor installing the gas piping.

I've got 3 years left -- Between Tullis, his minions and the new tolls scheduled for the end of the month, it'll be a very cold day in hell before I cross that bridge for work.


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## Mxz--700

:thumbsup:


GREENPLUM said:


> this might help... http://www.trapguard.com/
> 
> Trap Guard® solves the problem of infrequently used drains by eliminating the need for a trap primer while preventing the emission of sewer gases and the backup of raw sewage into living or work areas. It is much less expensive, much more effective and much simpler to maintain than a trap primer.


 We did a few large commercial jobs lately and something similar was required, had a real light spring in it with a plunger. not a fan of anything mechanical in drainage, so i like the ones you show here:thumbsup:


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## jeffreyplumber

I think an automatic means of maintaining a trap seal doesent nessesarily mean a trap primer. For example a shower valve will maintain a trap seal automaticaly but if you remove the valve and leave a drain it would require a primer.
So depending on the use of a floor drain or sink the inspector makes a call. Any floor drain pretty much needs it. Floor sink depends on how much constant use and of course the inspector .


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## Young Plumber

Yes Ron, automatic means is definitely the issue in question, but my question was why a constantly running piece of equipment, constantly draining condensate, which dumps into a hub drain specifically installed for that purpose (not a floor drain), does not constitute "automatic means." Of course, I just bucked up and put a trap primer in, since it was Tullis and he can't be reasoned with, but the condensate that dumps into that trap all the time puts more water into that trap than the trap primer which I installed.


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## knuckles

I've reached the point in bellevue and renton where i just put in trap primers on all floor drains, floor sinks, and funnel drains.

Some times i swear they write there own code. But if the job is permitted you can usually assume it was done correctly. 

Last time i checked they dont allow trap gaurd because it obstructs the full bore of the pipe. But that was awhile ago.


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## Widdershins

knuckles said:


> I've reached the point in bellevue and renton where i just put in trap primers on all floor drains, floor sinks, and funnel drains.
> 
> Some times i swear they write there own code. But if the job is permitted you can usually assume it was done correctly.
> 
> Last time i checked they dont allow trap gaurd because it obstructs the full bore of the pipe. But that was awhile ago.


You've dealt with Phil in Renton, eh?:laughing:

I let my business license lapse in Renton. Too many hoops to jump through.


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## user8031

I do not know if I am talking about the right Bellevue or not, but isn't that where a famous nut house is located?


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## Widdershins

wyefortyfive said:


> I do not know if I am talking about the right Bellevue or not, but isn't that where a famous nut house is located?


 That one is on the Right Coast -- The one we're talking about is on the Left Coast.


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## knuckles

Widdershins said:


> You've dealt with Phil in Renton, eh?:laughing:
> 
> I let my business license lapse in Renton. Too many hoops to jump through.


Yes i have dealt with famous Phil. Its rather funny that he is not allowed at Valley Med anymore. They were using a 3rd party inspection firm for awhile. But now city of renton is back in there but no more Phil.

He is the only inspector that wont give you an idea of the time hes gonna be there. " ill be there between 9 and 4" then not show at all.


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## PrecisionPlumb

Use a trap gaurd, its $30 and installs in 2 minutes


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## rusak

I know Seattle is Ok with Sure seals 
http://www.thesureseal.com/ 
They're manufactured in Tacoma


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## MechanicalPiper

Has anyone used the 'trap guard' brand in Bellevue, WA successfully. I tried leaving a message with Tullis, but haven't gotten a return call. The owner wants to use them in the bathrooms. They're only 2 fixture bathrooms, so floor drains are not even required...and legally I could cap them off. Adding a Trap Primer would really be a pain, but I would feel a lot better about using the Trap Guard if someone has already used them in Bellevue before without incident. The last few times I've asked Tullis what he would accept...he refused to answer...and just said "Do it according to code" and wouldn't say YES or NO. Not sure why he is so difficult, as answering the question would have taken less time than explaining that he's not going to tell me.

Anyone who's worked in Bellevue knows what I'm talking about.


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## Widdershins

MechanicalPiper said:


> Has anyone used the 'trap guard' brand in Bellevue, WA successfully. I tried leaving a message with Tullis, but haven't gotten a return call. The owner wants to use them in the bathrooms. They're only 2 fixture bathrooms, so floor drains are not even required...and legally I could cap them off. Adding a Trap Primer would really be a pain, but I would feel a lot better about using the Trap Guard if someone has already used them in Bellevue before without incident. The last few times I've asked Tullis what he would accept...he refused to answer...and just said "Do it according to code" and wouldn't say YES or NO. Not sure why he is so difficult, as answering the question would have taken less time than explaining that he's not going to tell me.
> 
> Anyone who's worked in Bellevue knows what I'm talking about.


I wouldn't chance it, especially with Tullis being part of the equation.:no:

Here's a good read on the subject of approval from the manufacturer.

Keep in mind that Tullis keeps a mental 'Shiot List' of Plumbing Contractors who went over his head -- If it was me, I'd weigh that against the amount of work I do in Bellevue and make my decision accordingly.

I'm a Lifer on his 'Shiot List', btw -- He see's my name on a set of plans when they're dropped off at the Planning Dept. and they get sidetracked for a few weeks before they're approved.:laughing:


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## PLUMBER_BILL

Greenguy said:


> Screw that pour the used cooking oil down will slow the evap  and


No, No, No ... Never pour cooking oil or any oil made from food down a drain, to stop trap siphoning. 
DRAWS ANTS ..... *Use Mineral Oil*


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## MechanicalPiper

Widdershins said:


> I wouldn't chance it, especially with Tullis being part of the equation.:no:
> 
> Here's a good read on the subject of approval from the manufacturer.
> 
> Keep in mind that Tullis keeps a mental 'Shiot List' of Plumbing Contractors who went over his head -- If it was me, I'd weigh that against the amount of work I do in Bellevue and make my decision accordingly.
> 
> I'm a Lifer on his 'Shiot List', btw -- He see's my name on a set of plans when they're dropped off at the Planning Dept. and they get sidetracked for a few weeks before they're approved.:laughing:


Yeah, that is most likely what I will have to do if I don't get an answer soon. I have sent off an email to several members of the planning department, so maybe I will hear back. I'm sure the answer will be 'NO', as there's nothing in it for them to say 'YES'.


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## Dog

Oil is not good for your drain


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## [email protected]

I just installed alor of stuff in bellevue wa for a wallmart so i know what u are talking about. But if u have a condensate that will constantly refresh the trap then no u dont need a primer line. Also they will not allow you to use mechanical seals like sure seal etc. Fact is u have one of the hardest inpectors in the area on your hands and it will do you no good to argue with this guy mark is fair but tough.


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## Bob MacKinnon

Maybe our code is different but in MA the plumbing sytem starts at the inlet of the reciever and the nspector does not have juristiction over the case drain


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## Bob MacKinnon

Arguing with an inspector is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. Sooner or later you realise he is enjoying it.


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## Frank Olivas

Thanks again for everyone's input. This project is done and everyone is content for now. I'm sure I'll be running into something new sooner or later. I'm more concerned now with quality of work performed than code issues. It appears to me that here is Southern California there is quite a bit of piece work going on and our company is paying the installers the bare minimum for house gas or water or grounds. The installers have a tendency to make up for it with speedy work. I redial my own designs and see for myself that some of my designs are not being followed.


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## GAN

In the broke State of Illinois

Section 890.730 Floor Drains/Trench Drains

a)Trap and Strainer. 
Floor drains shall be trapped and have a minimum water seal of 2 inches, and shall be provided with a removable strainer. The open area of the strainer shall be at least ⅔ of the area of the drain line to which it connects. (See Appendix F: Illustration F.)

Another section 890.1370 addresses evaporation, 
d) Provision for Evaporation. Floor drain seals subject to evaporation shall be of the deep seal type, shall be fed by means of a priming device designed for that purpose, or shall be filled with vegetable oil. Always loved this section

Several other provisions are in place for hospitals and establishments serving food.


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## Kempsville

Just did a Plbh. inspection on some Apartments 4 years vacant. All traps in ground for water heater pans and condensate are full of water verified with camera inspection and video. All deep seal traps. Why anyone in there right mind would need anything but a deep seal trap is crazy. In over 40 years of service, have never came across any problem as long as it has deep seal traps.


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## No-hub

In Oregon if its a listed fixture in the code book, no primer. Not listed then year round or not, needs primed. Waste receptors recieving condesate or any indirect waste not listed needs primed in OR,WA,ID,MT.


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## Tommy plumber

No-hub said:


> In Oregon if its a listed fixture in the code book, no primer. Not listed then year round or not, needs primed. Waste receptors recieving condesate or any indirect waste not listed needs primed in OR,WA,ID,MT.


 








http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/why-post-intro-11368/


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## No-hub

Tommy plumber said:


> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/why-post-intro-11368/


 done


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