# Pipe Bursting/ Trenchless



## APP14 (Jan 21, 2014)

Anyone out there doing pipe bursting/trenchless sewer replacement. I'm considering getting into this. Have been reading up on it and think this would be very profitable. It seems customers would really "dig" this. Haha sorry. But seriously the work seems endless.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Search posts by bulldozer and Cuda. Cuda's facebook page has a lot of pics and videos. They both have an immense amount of knowledge and experience.

I do some bursting as well.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I'd probably think about getting into the pipe relining first, maybe using PipePatch and spot repairs as the entry, then stepping it up into the full blown inversion lining of the entire laterals.

Then finally getting into the bursting side of trenchless pipe rehabilitation...


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## APP14 (Jan 21, 2014)

Thanks for the info guys. I've dug up a lot of sewers over the years and the customer is always worried about their yard. Which I don't blame them. I want to offer this as an alternative and also when I camera I want to offer this as a pro - active measure to do before the inevitable happens of the break, collaspe, basement backup. I'm definitely going to ck put the info and videos. Seems like a win win for the customer and my business.


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## APP14 (Jan 21, 2014)

Just checked out pipepatch. Thanks.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

I'm fascinated by the process. I have never seen it done, but would like too. Infact, any Chicago area guys doing this? If you have a weekend job I'd love to see how it's done.


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## APP14 (Jan 21, 2014)

Where I'm located it does seem like an untapped market and I think just about anywhere it would keep any plumbing company busy.


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

We have a nice sized 10-inch burst coming up under a 4 lane highway in north western ohio you are welcome to come out if you. Want. Bring the work boots and we will by you lunch. Lol.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

bulldozer said:


> We have a nice sized 10-inch burst coming up under a 4 lane highway in north western ohio you are welcome to come out if you. Want. Bring the work boots and we will by you lunch. Lol.


Is it on a weekend? I'd consider making the drive.


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## APP14 (Jan 21, 2014)

Sounds like a good time to me. If you don't mind me asking bulldozer how long does a typical residential job take. Is this something your company mainly does. Seems like once you get into it the work would never stop.


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

Wish I were closer. I'd make the drive.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

I looked into CIPP trenchless, and all most invested in it. Just didn't believe in the product enough to justify the cost. 

Pipe bursting makes more since, as your pulling a solid pipe vs shooting a liner that may or may not hold up long term. Also if Sewer does not flow perfectly CIPP is worthless. How many sewer have bellies? A lot. CIPP won't fix that


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Will said:


> I looked into CIPP trenchless, and all most invested in it. Just didn't believe in the product enough to justify the cost.
> 
> Pipe bursting makes more since, as your pulling a solid pipe vs shooting a liner that may or may not hold up long term. Also if Sewer does not flow perfectly CIPP is worthless. How many sewer have bellies? A lot. CIPP won't fix that


The bellies can be a problem for bursting as well.

I feel the same as you on the trusting the liners. There are some very impressive success stories out there but the limited manufacturer warranties scare me. Front end cost on the lining systems is pretty high as well. A pipe patch system of some sort does have my interest. I will probably buy into one of those before too long.


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

We will probably burst on the weekend for traffic control. I do a pretty good mix of residential and municipal. I would say our average burst job start to finish is no more then a day. We do 4-7 per week. We specialized in trenchless several years ago and have really tried to get it down to a science. It can be demanding at times but have really enjoyed the uniqueness of the trade.


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

If you don't already have some gray hair and don't want any then stay away from pipe bursting and liners. If you don't mind some gray hair and really like problem solving then trenchless may be for you. It is not a simple thing because underground anything is possible and you have to bend and not break (mentally)


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## APP14 (Jan 21, 2014)

Right on. Thanks guys appreciate the feedback. Cuda I have 3 kids and run a business what's hair. Ha!


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

I don't know anything other than what I have read about either technology. I have not lined or burst 1 foot of pipe. But I am really curious about your opinions, especially from experienced guys 

So my question is; if you are truly going to offer some one trench-less wouldn't you want to start with a bursting set up first. The reason I am asking/suggesting this is; if CIPP doesn't go well what is the bail out? Open dig or bursting. Keep in mind you truly want to be trench-less. Then I think you might not want to bail yourself out with open dig. So I think bursting is where I would start. Then CIPP. Am I wrong with this logic?


Also what is the basic start up cost for each technology? Lets assume you have an excavating machine,truck,trailer,sewer camera & locater and insurance. I would guess a base price for the tools listed above if you didn't already own them is near 100K.


Lining-
a trailer jetter or high GPM & Pressure? 
large air compressor 

Bursting-
don't you need a fuser?


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

plungerboy said:


> I don't know anything other than what I have read about either technology. I have not lined or burst 1 foot of pipe. But I am really curious about your opinions, especially from experienced guys
> 
> So my question is; if you are truly going to offer some one trench-less wouldn't you want to start with a bursting set up first. The reason I am asking/suggesting this is; if CIPP doesn't go well what is the bail out? Open dig or bursting. Keep in mind you truly want to be trench-less. Then I think you might not want to bail yourself out with open dig. So I think bursting is where I would start. Then CIPP. Am I wrong with this logic?
> 
> ...


I have said it before and I will say it again: Pipe bursting is a better final product, no reduction in size, small bellies can sometimes be corrected, the pipe will last forever.
But the reality of our current times are that lining is tossed around like the best thing since sliced bread right or wrong and more people go looking for it for that reason. Lining is easier to do it only needs one opening to the host pipe be it a ditch or a cleanout, pipe bursting needs 2 pits. lining the street portion on sewer jobs makes more sense than bursting. You can do more lining jobs in one day than pipe bursting. So from a business standpoint lining is best to start and get off the ground.
Money wise 20k gets you started lining, bursting same amount 20k. Everyone who has a camera should at least look at getting a pipe patch system $1500 sets you up and going.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Cuda said:


> I have said it before and I will say it again: Pipe bursting is a better final product, no reduction in size, small bellies can sometimes be corrected, the pipe will last forever.
> But the reality of our current times are that lining is tossed around like the best thing since sliced bread right or wrong and more people go looking for it for that reason. Lining is easier to do it only needs one opening to the host pipe be it a ditch or a cleanout, pipe bursting needs 2 pits. lining the street portion on sewer jobs makes more sense than bursting. You can do more lining jobs in one day than pipe bursting. So from a business standpoint lining is best to start and get off the ground.
> Money wise 20k gets you started lining, bursting same amount 20k. Everyone who has a camera should at least look at getting a pipe patch system $1500 sets you up and going.


*Zackly!*


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

I use a subcontractor for pipe bursting. Always great results and a happy customer.

David


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

We do both. I would have to say bursting is a lot safer then lining. Both have their headaches but im a lot more comfortable with bursting. My results on bursting is if one of my guys sells it some of the offset. Conditions dont effect you so much. Plus like biz and cuda say it is a much more solid product.


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## APP14 (Jan 21, 2014)

With the lining and pipe patch do you ever have a problem with the resin not setting up and curing.


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

APP14 said:


> With the lining and pipe patch do you ever have a problem with the resin not setting up and curing.


Hmmm... Pipe patch will cure even in water so no. But I had one liner not cure in a small section of the run because there was major ground water that I did not know about at the time and we had to dig that section up and pipe burst it to finish the job. (gray hair)


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

My favorite part of trenchless is the pure adrenaline rush you get when its all happening underground. I dont care how much experience you have the feeling is still the same. But I have to say I still enjoy the post camera inspection and seeing pipe in the ground with little or no excavation.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

bulldozer said:


> My favorite part of trenchless is the pure adrenaline rush you get when its all happening underground. I dont care how much experience you have the feeling is still the same. But I have to say I still enjoy the post camera inspection and seeing pipe in the ground with little or no excavation.


We pulled a new line under a high end strip shopping center building. You bet there was adrenaline as my a** was on the line. There were going to be some unhappy tenants and a property owner if it failed. Sawcutting would have been ugly. Hearing the cast iron crumble under the slab was pretty cool. Of course we had to cut the bathroom floors but overall the job went well and I made some money on that job.

David


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

bulldozer said:


> My favorite part of trenchless is the pure adrenaline rush you get when its all happening underground. I dont care how much experience you have the feeling is still the same. But I have to say I still enjoy the post camera inspection and seeing pipe in the ground with little or no excavation.



Hmm I figured the best part would be getting the check when work is done was done...


How do y'all get inspections passed with trenchless?


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> Search posts by bulldozer and Cuda. Cuda's facebook page has a lot of pics and videos. They both have an immense amount of knowledge and experience.
> 
> I do some bursting as well.


That is true. I'm a fan of Cuda's FB page and that is some impressive work they do in the pipe bursting field. They take on some projects that most would turn away from or completely f*** up if given the opportunity. They are damn good at what they do, thats for sure.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Will said:


> Hmm I figured the best part would be getting the check when work is done was done...
> 
> How do y'all get inspections passed with trenchless?


In Houston, trenchless is approved and they only need to see the end connections. Some inspectors will want to see a video of the end product with a sewer camera but that was mostly early on when it was first approved in early 2000. I've done both systems and I will have to agree that pipe bursting with the HDPE pipe is a much better product as far as the pipe goes. Luckily we dont have 10' deep sewers like what Cuda runs into regularly in Seattle. I have experienced the nightmare of failed liner implementations and had to jack hammer up an entire basement to correct it. The liner requires great attention to detail especially when making the epoxy recipe. I have seen some fantastic results with it, too. I think once I get going strongly with my business I will look into pipe patch.


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

Lol. I remember several years ago we did a job under the pepsi plant. They shut down production for one weekend
320 ft. Pull about 15 ft. Deep And the plant supervisor goes have your machine ever stopped? At that moment it stops. In between sneaking off looking for a hanging tree I noticed one of the quick couplers came off on the power unit
Prayers answered.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

bulldozer said:


> Lol. I remember several years ago we did a job under the pepsi plant. They shut down production for one weekend
> 320 ft. Pull about 15 ft. Deep And the plant supervisor goes have your machine ever stopped? At that moment it stops. In between sneaking off looking for a hanging tree I noticed one of the quick couplers came off on the power unit
> Prayers answered.


That is one hell of a "pucker" moment. Thankfully it was an easy fix. Never underestimate the power of jinxes. Didn't you drop all other plumbing services and go exclusively drains and pipe bursting?


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> That is one hell of a "pucker" moment. Thankfully it was an easy fix. Never underestimate the power of jinxes. Didn't you drop all other plumbing services and go exclusively drains and pipe bursting?


I did. Best move I made. We do relining. Bursting up to 24 inch pipe patch and jetting. We service quite a few plumbers and its a win win


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Will said:


> Hmm I figured the best part would be getting the check when work is done was done...
> 
> 
> How do y'all get inspections passed with trenchless?


Yes, the check is sweet. 

As for the inspection on my underslab pull, she wanted to see the pipe and pressure test. I said tell me how to expose it and I will be happy to show it to you. One of those situations where common sense wins out no matter how hard headed the inspector is.

David


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Fortunately our chief is pretty sharp and works well with us. 

He used to require before/after vids. Then, just before vids to verify no bellies. Now just an after video with water running. Sometimes not even that. They do always check our connections where we excavate.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

What is cuda's FB page?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Flyout95 said:


> What is cuda's FB page?


 https://www.facebook.com/pages/Seattle-Drain-Service/182173475152440


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## APP14 (Jan 21, 2014)

Thanks guys for sharing your experiences and info and pointing me in the right direction. The knowledge you all share is priceless. To the guys who do this everyday and have some videos, cool s**t. I also had a good conversation with Nate Hrabosky from Hammerhead today. He was also very informative about the equipment and the process. Excited to get this ball rolling. And get a check or two. Keep ya "posted"


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

APP14 said:


> Thanks guys for sharing your experiences and info and pointing me in the right direction. The knowledge you all share is priceless. To the guys who do this everyday and have some videos, cool s**t. I also had a good conversation with Nate Hrabosky from Hammerhead today. He was also very informative about the equipment and the process. Excited to get this ball rolling. And get a check or two. Keep ya "posted"


Tell nate I said hi. I deal with his uncle john. Both guys are a wealth of knowledge and straight forward. I know its kind of a ride but your welcome to come see us anytime you want. Well leave the light on for you.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Cuda, your work seems legit!


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## PeckPlumbing (Mar 19, 2011)

Thanks for posting this thread, been an nice read. Lining and bursting have always been interesting to me. There aren't many people in this area doing it and may be a market to tap into.


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## COLEPub (Jul 23, 2014)

If you're just getting started in pipe bursting and relining, here are some articles, videos and a list of lining and rehab product manufacturers: www.cleaner.com/information-about/relining-rehab.


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## tmichielsen (Jul 8, 2014)

Pipe bursting is a great revune stream with low cost once all you equipment is paid for in California we get around $150 per foot to pipe burst. Also pipe lining is a great Stram as well but more can go wrong with lining vrs bursting imo


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Are you in Los Angeles? I can't even get $100 a foot on lining anymore. How are you getting $150 on bursting? I'm considering selling my equipment cause it's priced too low. It's such a big ticket item that customers will shop that price around.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

There are guys doing it in LA that will do 40' of bursting for 400-800.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

gear junkie said:


> There are guys doing it in LA that will do 40' of bursting for 400-800.


Wow! That is plain stupid. How do they not value their work any more is beyond me. Mind blowing. The equipment runs upwards of $20K or more from what I understand. WTF...


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

I'm looking at a flyer right now that's 40ft of bursting for $425 then $12 per ft after. 
I understand the more you do the cheaper you can charge per ft and still come out on top but if I have to play this game much longer with prices dropping I'm going to sell my equipment and just sub it out.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

sierra2000 said:


> I'm looking at a flyer right now that's 40ft of bursting for $425 then $12 per ft after...


:blink::blink:


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

$100-4" $150 per foot for 6" price breaks for longer lengths depending on sewers depth. Don't worry about the cheap guys they will go out of business and then the customer will have zero warranty.


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

APP14 said:


> Thanks guys for sharing your experiences and info and pointing me in the right direction. The knowledge you all share is priceless. To the guys who do this everyday and have some videos, cool s**t. I also had a good conversation with Nate Hrabosky from Hammerhead today. He was also very informative about the equipment and the process. Excited to get this ball rolling. And get a check or two. Keep ya "posted"


One thing I can tell you that no one mentioned. It all depends on how deep your average sewer is. The area I work 90% of sewers are 5ft deep at the property line. In this case doing a pipe burst is better. My work is for other plumbers. I don't do any digging I come in install the pipe all in about 1 hour with pipe bursting.

I know some of you guys have sewers at 10ft deep in this case lining from the basement or the easy access works best. But with lining there is not a lot of room for errors. If you are doing a liner from the sidewalk to the middle of the street and you screw up then you are digging.

Another thing to look for when you are looking at equipment is how compact and powerful it is. Some bursting equipment pull horizontally and some vertical. I personally like tric tool because they invented the equipment. A 3x3 access is all I need. One of my machines is 30tons of pressure per square inch that's plenty of power to do pretty much anything.

Also will you work residential or commercial industrial? Applications change and you may need more power. If you have the opportunity go see how different equipment work and see which one will work better for what you want it for.

As far as equipment cost if you look around you can find used good working equipment for a lot less than new. I hope this helps.


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

sierra2000 said:


> I'm looking at a flyer right now that's 40ft of bursting for $425 then $12 per ft after.
> I understand the more you do the cheaper you can charge per ft and still come out on top but if I have to play this game much longer with prices dropping I'm going to sell my equipment and just sub it out.


Sad this is pretty much the going rate for plumbers. I know of some guys charging $375 for 40ft but they have no lic. This is for pipe bursting and it is plumbers price. This is for installation of hdpe pipe only. No digging no connections. Home owner with no license will never pay that. Is whole sale price for plumbing companies.

If you are doing the digging, pulling permits, back filling, inspection and everything else the price is not $425.

I'm happy to answer any questions I do at least 5 to 6 or more lining and bursting jobs per day. I only work for licensed plumbers. Been at it for 15 years I'm happy to help with what I know. I don't knot everything but I'm confident in my work.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

cjtheplumber said:


> Sad this is pretty much the going rate for plumbers. I know of some guys charging $375 for 40ft but they have no lic. This is for pipe bursting and it is plumbers price. This is for installation of hdpe pipe only. No digging no connections. Home owner with no license will never pay that. Is whole sale price for plumbing companies. If you are doing the digging, pulling permits, back filling, inspection and everything else the price is not $425. I'm happy to answer any questions I do at least 5 to 6 or more lining and bursting jobs per day. I only work for licensed plumbers. Been at it for 15 years I'm happy to help with what I know. I don't knot everything but I'm confident in my work.


I don't do bursting just lining. Is there money being made at those prices for bursting after paying everything?


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

I would let some one look at my tric burster for $475 in the truck but would not even unload it for that price.


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

sierra2000 said:


> I don't do bursting just lining. Is there money being made at those prices for bursting after paying everything?


Yes money is made. The area you are in and competition drives pricing. It all has to do with bulk buying of materials and how much work you do. Pm me if you want more details I'm here to help! Lining is different.


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

Cuda said:


> I would let some one look at my tric burster for $475 in the truck but would not even unload it for that price.


If you were in socal... You will be surprised Just saying!


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

How many guys does bursting require if the hole is already dug? How much time to set up until you're done on 100 foot run? 
At $425 for 15' and $12 a foot after on 100' run that's $1445 for the day minus whatever the material and labor cost you. Is that worth it? IDK, I've never done it yet. I imagine you'd have to do almost nothing but bursting to make it worthwhile.


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

sierra2000 said:


> How many guys does bursting require if the hole is already dug? How much time to set up until you're done on 100 foot run?
> At $425 for 15' and $12 a foot after on 100' run that's $1445 for the day minus whatever the material and labor cost you. Is that worth it? IDK, I've never done it yet. I imagine you'd have to do almost nothing but bursting to make it worthwhile.


We do it all bursting, lining, jetting, camera inspections and the mole. Takes 2 guys lining or bursting we can do 100ft in one hour 2 max from arrival. This is all we do all day long. I like to think we are one of the best at it. In my eyes I have the best equipment for what I do and use it for. I got 3 pumps one is the newest from tric pulls fast about 1ft everytime. My liners dry in one hour as well. Think about how many I can do in a day but this is not it. I buy lots of material because I do lots of work. Most of the people I know do as well. I see them often when picking up lining materials, HDPE pipe etc.

I know most of the guys doing this type of work la county & orange county some have been doing it for years. The pricing is the going rate can't be $400 or $500 more when you have 8 other guys at less than $500. I do enough not to worry about it.

Don't know why you are so surprised every supply store I walk in has flyers with pricing. Hirsh, furgeson etc...

What is surprising to me is some of the big companies hire these none licensed bursting and lining guys who are not insured. You don't even want to hear their pricing. All they see is how much they will save don't care if you are not licensed that pisses me off, but what can I do.:furious:

Cuda is lucky and so are guys elsewhere you know this we all do. Our market is so saturated with plumbers, hacks etc... If you lived in Pasadena long enough you know what I mean.

I'm local in the valley not too far from your place I can't say it enough I'm here to help. Maybe you are buying your materials for too much or don't buy enough therefore can't compete. I have no idea what your situation is. Having the right tools and guys help. Pm me if you need help I got some contacts I can share. I'm the type of guy that will help you if I can. There is enough for everyone:thumbsup:


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

I'm in Pasadena area. Yeah it's saturated. Sounds like you sub to other plumbers. That may be where I'm lacking. I don't sub. All my trucks have my logo and number on them.
Lining isn't all I do, I do service plumbing and drains so if I have to drop lining so be it. I refuse to price it any lower than I already am. 
I'll pm you tomorrow.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Material cost is not going to make up that gap. :no:

I wouldn't carry my equipment to the job for that money even if the materials were free.


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

sierra2000 said:


> I'm in Pasadena area. Yeah it's saturated. Sounds like you sub to other plumbers. That may be where I'm lacking. I don't sub. All my trucks have my logo and number on them.
> Lining isn't all I do, I do service plumbing and drains so if I have to drop lining so be it. I refuse to price it any lower than I already am.
> I'll pm you tomorrow.


95% is to plumbers. The other 5% is none plumbers home owners that know me for those multiply by 15 is what they pay for me doing all the work, plus permits camera inspection, locating jetting or whatever I got to do. I charge home owners price to home owners and plumber price to plumbers.


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

I can only hope that when my market gets to the point that doing pipe bursting is the same as opening up a landscape business that I have stuck to my business plan and will have left residential and be doing 8" water mains and 12" sewer replacements for industrial and municipal customers like bulldozer.


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