# Plumbers running a business without masters



## theloneranger (Apr 24, 2010)

How common is it for a person to open a plumbing business and not have a master plumbers license? I just looked up 3 people that run a plumbing business and not 1 of them had a license. How do they get away with it as far as getting insurance and permits? Maybe they have someone letting them use their license.


----------



## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

theloneranger said:


> How common is it for a person to open a plumbing business and not have a master plumbers license? I just looked up 3 people that run a plumbing business and not 1 of them had a license. How do they get away with it as far as getting insurance and permits? Maybe they have someone letting them use their license.


I'm not sure how it works in Texas yet, but back home in Colorado, anyone can _own_ a plumbing business. The owner will have to hire a master plumber who will register his license with both the state and the county as being responsible. In other words, a master plumber has to be a full time employee of the company, he can't just pull permits for somebody.


----------



## luv2plumb (Apr 30, 2010)

greenscoutII said:


> I'm not sure how it works in Texas yet, but back home in Colorado, anyone can _own_ a plumbing business. *The owner will have to hire a master plumber who will register his license with both the state and the county as being responsible. In other words, a master plumber has to be a full time employee of the company, he can't just pull permits for somebody*.


 
what he said


----------



## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

It's becoming quite common around here.

People open or buy a existing business and employ a master. I know of a couple that borrowed or rented a MP# to upgrade their drain business. 

One local drain company actually worked under the MP# of a local inspector. 
I hate it but it's legal.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

This guy isn't a plumber thats for sure...

And he's in your state running a business...:whistling2:


----------



## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Legally to say plumbing inc. Master must own 51% if company but call yourself mechanical and piping and except for permits your in business and for permits unfortunately there seems to always be someone to signoff for them

Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

In Indiana they just do it. With no fear of repercussions, why not? If a State is lax on enforcing it just happens. I did pose that question to an Insurance agent once. He looked at me and stammered and looked at me like I asked for his first born. I think the Insurance industry believes they are exempt from liability.

I have at least three companies in my city whom are not licensed to own a plumbing business.


----------



## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

They can be a silent partner here or be a qualifier.


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Common here but as was stated, they must have a full time Plumbing Contractor on the payroll. The business has to be listed under the PC's license to pull permits and operate legally. The license can only be used for one business in each municipality.


----------



## Eric (Jan 10, 2011)

Hey Guys..

Here in MA, a Master or a Journeyman MAY own and run a business, as follows:

A journeyman must either work alone by himself in his own business, or work for a master. A journeyman license lets you work with the tools, you can not employ anyone.

A master license pretty much lets you hire employees. You may hire an apprentice for yourself (a master) and also have one apprentice for each journeyman you employ. one to one, or more journeymen than apprentices.

Here you have to have both licenses master and journeyman if you want to employ and work in the trade. Which is retarded. A master who gives up his journeyman license can not handle the tools, but can run the business. 

So I have both... if it's money they want, they should just charge accordingly for the master so you can drop the journeyman's and do whatever you want, but I don't make the rules. 

And... We have to go to continuing education every year to renew you license, 6-hours each year.

The funny thing is the plumbing test is basically the same except for some extra business math on the masters. It is a very tough test though. 

Instead of testing on the same plumbing code as the journeyman, they should have you aquire a business degree or some kind of college course to run a business to get the masters so people will be ready to run a business with some real overhead.


----------



## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

keep in mind power of attorneyallows the non license holder to pull the permit for the qualifier.


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Eric said:


> ...Here you have to have both licenses master and journeyman if you want to employ and work in the trade. Which is retarded. A master who gives up his journeyman license can not handle the tools, but can run the business....


:blink:


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> keep in mind power of attorneyallows the non license holder to pull the permit for the qualifier.


 



Thanks for the information Richard. We are both in the same state; I didn't know that.

I worked for a man years ago and I assumed he was a licensed master plumber. Years later I found out he was not, but had a qualifier. The states should do a better job of enforcing the licensing laws on the books, in my opinion. Too many handy-men doing plumbing jobs.


----------



## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

The law allows employees of the company to pull permits for the qualifier. Using me as an example the manager of the company has the power of attorney to pull permits and request the inspection. I am not sure exactly the letter law or of intent this law. I suppose to allow managers or employees of the company to do this. With every law some people immediately discover loop holes to circumvent laws.

I am sure the law was developed to allow the company to run for a short period of time when an owner becomes deceased and will give the company time to find a different qualifier or shut their doors.


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> The law allows employees of the company to pull permits for the qualifier. Using me as an example the manager of the company has the power of attorney to pull permits and request the inspection. I am not sure exactly the letter law or of intent this law. I suppose to allow managers or employees of the company to do this. With every law some people immediately discover loop holes to circumvent laws.
> 
> I am sure the law was developed to allow the company to run for a short period of time when an owner becomes deceased and will give the company time to find a different qualifier or shut their doors.


 



Florida statute 489.523 states, *"Emergency registration upon death of a contractor.-* If an incomplete contract exists at the time of death of a contractor, the contract may be completed by any person even though not certified. The person shall notify the appropriate board, within 30 days after the death of the contractor, of his or her name and address, knowledge of the contract, and ability to complete it. If the board approves, he or she may proceed with the contract. The board shall then issue an emergency registration which shall expire upon the completion of the contract. For purposes of this section, and upon written approval of the board, an incomplete contract may be one which has been awarded to, or entered into by, the contractor before his or her death, or on which he or she was the low bidder and the contract is subsequently awarded to him or her, regardless of whether any actual work has commenced under the contract before the contractor's death."


----------



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*my experiences*

I wont pull permits for others. and I have seen the horror stories up close and personal over the years....


It is not wise to run a plumbing company and not have your own master lisc.... the main reason is the master plumver you get to work for you eventually starts to feel like he has you over a barrell... it is only a temporary barrell ....but he can make your life so miserable with demands and perks to keep him happy , you finally have to fire him

I know a water softener company in town that needed a master plumber to do some plumbing and water heaters for them... eventually it got so bad ...with perks, new trucks,,, benefits, and just not showing up for work when they needed him........

 they finally just decided to get rid of the whole water heater division 
and sold all their domain names to me, just because of the greif this dildo
 put them through every week.......


I ought to thank him for being such a pain in the ass to them:thumbup:


----------



## sigshooter71 (Dec 8, 2010)

Eric how did they even open up a water softening company without a plumbing license. Almost all the water softening companies around here operate without licenses. Its ridiculous.


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

*I really got to shake my head and wonder what is actually going on..*

*So a licensed plumber can not operate a business without a master’s licence…*

*That is no different than having licences to have a licence *

*Where I am from you need a plumber licence in order to get masters ….*

*A master is just a business licence in order to do work with in a certain city….*

*So you pay your annual fee to get your masters with the city showing proof of qualifications and insurance nothing more…*

*The part that makes me wonder what is going on is that there is a growing trend in some places that is making your write another test to say you are now a master…*

*How can that be when you already proved either in your province or state that you are qualified to do plumbing with your province or state plumbing licence.*

*So far in Ontario writing a test to get masters is not needed…. But for electrical it is…*

*They just brought that in a couple of years ago that a qualified electrician can not even buy a permit if he is not a master electrician… and not only that they make it next to impossible to get an electrical masters licensed….*

*If they tried that up here with plumbing ,,,, saying that I need to prove myself again….I would be the first one to jump up on a soap box and scream bloody murder. *


----------



## grandpa (Jul 13, 2008)

Come on over to California, folks. NO master or journey license. Document a few years of experience and you can take the test to be a Plumbing Contractor. ( test is pretty easy, much of it relates to the legal aspects of contracting). The Plumbing Contractor can hire any jackleg illegal alien he feels like, and put him to work without supervision.


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

grandpa said:


> Come on over to California, folks. NO master or journey license. Document a few years of experience and you can take the test to be a Plumbing Contractor. ( test is pretty easy, much of it relates to the legal aspects of contracting). The Plumbing Contractor can hire any jackleg illegal alien he feels like, and put him to work without supervision.


 




That is one liberal state. The dope smoking Calif. politicians evidently don't think the plumbing profession should be well regulated. If Governor Schwarzeneggar's mansion burns to the ground due to an incompetent 'plumbing contractor' installing a gas W/H incorrectly, then those incompetent dope smoking politicians might think regulating and tightening up the licensing process (at least for plumbers) isn't a bad idea. Maybe in between bong hits, one day the light bulb will start to flicker. The bulb probably won't come on brightly, it'll be dim, just like the dim-witted law-makers on the left coast, but hopefully they'll see the light....:blink:


----------



## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

Yes, the dreaded Florida Statute 489 loop holes. I know of at least 3 plumbers around here milking off of someone else's license number, or is it the other way around?:blink:


----------

