# Trenchless Water Service



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Trenchless replacement of a water pipe from a well in Oklahoma.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

The water service comes in through the side of this cistern. The cistern is about 26' deep and 7' diameter inside the garage.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Nice pictures. What kind of puller are you using?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Pipe Genie


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

That is awesome technology. I love seeing the pics of the work in progress. How long does something like that take?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Indie said:


> ...How long does something like that take?


This was an all day affair. Sometimes we're out in a few hours, other times not so quick. Every one is different.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

That there is a deep hole.

We just dug a 15' deep hole for some stormwater drainage, and standing next to that was scary. I can only imagine what it was like looking down that cistern.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

RealLivePlumber said:


> ...I can only imagine what it was like looking down that cistern.


Having it inside a structure freaks me out. We made it a priority to get it covered when not having to check the status of the pull. The thing is coming apart anyway. There is a 2'-3' section about 4' down that is missing. Since the bottom water is perfectly clear, It is apparent that it broke and the bottom 20' section has sunk down.

Water table in that area is pretty low too. It is 280' to get to the well pump. The house is near a creek. The cistern originally outside. The garage is not original to the property. They might have just been using the creek and cistern for water. Who knows.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

We don't see many cistern pits over here.

I've seen alot of stuff on the news about lawsuits the state of Oklahoma has filed against the Arkansas poultry commision. The lawsuits are mainly targeting runoff from poultry farms and fertilizer that is spread on fields.

Do you have many cases of contamination in those shallow pits or wells?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

That lawsuit has to do with the supposed effect of the runoff that is hitting the upper Illinois river. I know the fishing in Lake Tenkiller has almost flat lined compared to years past. I don't know if Tyson's and Pilgrim's pride are to blame or not.

On the cistern...I don't know that either. Since we work mainly in the OKC metro area I don't see them very often either.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Is that existing pipe galvanized? Does the pipe genie pull the old pipe out or split it and leave in place?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

This one was thin wall black poly. Most of it splits at the beginning but then the rest just pulls out. We pull galvanized also. Usually we just pull it out rather than splitting the steel. Pulling it out is much faster (if it will pull).


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

We use the Grice industries tool and its great. Galvanized is always a gamble if you can get the cable through the pipe and if so will it pull out. Generally Poly and lead are rarely a problem if there have not been several spot repairs. 
You gotta love being the hero to the customer when everyone else was gonna jack up their driveway and lawn and when you leave they can barely tell you were there. :thumbup:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Pipe Rat said:


> ...Galvanized is always a gamble...


Those are the tough ones. Unfortunately, they are also the ones we usually have. This poly replacement was a rare event. It is usually steel.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

What happens when there is a tee in the galvanized in the middle of the driveway?

Offsets or turns in PVC?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Sometimes...


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

In those cases ya have to do it via open cut or directional drilling. We rarely have tees or fittings in our area. The local purveyor has always had stiff regulations around here. Straight from the tap into the front of the house.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Biz, you post some cool stuff. It's neat to see. Thanks for taking the time. 

What do you pull that cable with?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Pipe Genie is the manufacturer.

Hydraulic pistons with a frame and pulley. Portable hydraulic power. If it were to max out, it pulls at 40 tons. I've never needed it near that high.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

So it actually pulls the pipe through the ground... That's pretty neat. We just use directional boring around here.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

How does pulling or boring compare to busting a trench through concrete, digging and laying the pipe and replacing surface. That equipment is pricey I'm sure. You have 2 men on site or more? A guy that does boring here is really good but massively expensive.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

The very first time I had the chance to work with an old time plumber in the early 70’s my father gave me to him to help him out. I was amazed at how he pulled new K copper for water services. He welded flared fittings that screwed to the old galvanized flared fitting for copper. He then went to the main at the meter and dug a pit. He then had welded plumbing fittings to a chain that he attached to his backhoe and pulled the water service to the meter. These water services were 6 feet to 10 feet deep. This guy rarely picked up a shovel to replace any water lines. I earned the most from this old timer. 

Nice job.....


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

mpsllc said:


> How does pulling or boring compare to busting a trench through concrete, digging and laying the pipe and replacing surface. That equipment is pricey I'm sure. You have 2 men on site or more? A guy that does boring here is really good but massively expensive.


Price wise, our trenchless methods are almost always less money than open cut replacements. For the finished result that is. This completed job cost the homeowner only a fraction of the a conventional open cut method. The open cut would have involved removing and reinstalling decking at the garage along with excavation, cutting and replacement of a trench in the driveway along with excavation, and removal/replacement of concrete in the garage.

It is not always measured in dollars. I have had many plumbers tell me it is cheaper and faster to just dig the yard up with a backhoe. After all, a 580 Case and a plumber can lay some PVC pretty quick. But what if the customer likes their delicate fescue grass? What if they don't want to risk killing a 40' tall cedar tree? What if they don't want their fence torn down? What id they don't want a yard that looks like we buried a 70' long python? What if, what if, what, if....

Sometimes pipe pulling or bursting is best. Sometimes directional drilling is best. Sometimes you just have to dig it up. In the end, we choose the method that produces what we believe to be the best overall value for the customer with the best end result.

Usually the trenchless method seems more difficult than the open cut method but I prefer to focus on the baby rather than the labor pains.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

We have been using http://www.griceindustries.com/instructions.html for close to 15 years.

It is one of the better investments we have made. It sure is a whole lot better than the way used to pull water services.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> Price wise, our trenchless methods are almost always less money than open cut replacements. For the finished result that is. This completed job cost the homeowner only a fraction of the a conventional open cut method. The open cut would have involved removing and reinstalling decking at the garage along with excavation, cutting and replacement of a trench in the driveway along with excavation, and removal/replacement of concrete in the garage.
> 
> It is not always measured in dollars. I have had many plumbers tell me it is cheaper and faster to just dig the yard up with a backhoe. After all, a 580 Case and a plumber can lay some PVC pretty quick. But what if the customer likes their delicate fescue grass? What if they don't want to risk killing a 40' tall cedar tree? What if they don't want their fence torn down? What id they don't want a yard that looks like we buried a 70' long python? What if, what if, what, if....
> 
> ...


Don't you have some lines pull apart, or come to find out there's a tee out in there somewhere? What do you tell the ho then? I pull lines on repipes all the time and it's a crap shoot. Seems there's always that one line that is so tight it would snap in two. And I have to reroute over head.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

mpsllc said:


> ...Don't you have some lines pull apart, or come to find out there's a tee out in there somewhere?...


By pulling the pipe I mean we are pulling a cable that is fished through the old pipe. There is a head attached to end of the cable that pulls the new pipe in simultaneously. 

There is a fair amount of diagnostics involved in the beginning to prevent "surprises" like tees and 90's. Sometimes we have to access a fitting like a tee or even an offset. If the diagnostic work is thorough, . 

Trenchless pipe replacement requires careful planning. It isn't always as simple as it sounds. The pictures always make it look effortless. Unlike open cut methods, you can't just start digging and address things as they pop up. You have to do your homework ahead of time.

How do you pull lines on repipes?


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

This assumes a slab job with lines sleeved under floor. Primitive as it is, I use a highlift jack if the line does not pull by hand. You can get a pretty good tug with it. I have a chain connected to it and see how it goes. I pull copper or poly. I tie a 5/16" rope through drilled hole in opposite end of pipe so when it pulls out I hook new wirsbo or pex to rope and drag new line back in. Takes an hombre on each end. I would love to connect new line to old before pulling but the sleeves would not accommodate the fitting size increase. Every time I do a pull I find myself thinking there has to be a way to rig up a hydraulic reel of some sort that would be simpler then the highlift.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Also I use Dawn dish soap as it lubricates new piping making it slip in easier. Used to use crisco margin but a engineer told us it could have a chemical effect on the piping in time.


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