# A new business owner failure; lost revenue



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

I do not make a big deal about installing or working on boilers, cause it is not my primary interest, and on experience levels, it is near the bottom of my skill set. 

With that being said, this thread is to show the world how dumb a new business owner can be when they don't listen to a customer. 

I got a call today to fix a pressure problem on a water heater at this customers house. I did work for this guy at the old company and when he found out I went on my own he was ecstatic. While at his house months ago, he had me look at installing a bathroom in the basement. He mentioned while I was there that he needed to have something done with his boiler and I paid it not attention, cause I figured he was just gathering information.

Fast forward to today.....
I walk down the steps to the basement and here is what I find.


Moral of the story for new owners like me. Make sure you are listening to the customer and never, ever, ever assume you know what their intentions are.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

So the problem is ????????


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## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> So the problem is ????????


The problem is he lost out on doing a boiler re & re by not listening to his customer to find out what his or her exact needs were.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

Indie said:


> I do not make a big deal about installing or working on boilers, cause it is not my primary interest, and on experience levels, it is near the bottom of my skill set.
> 
> With that being said, this thread is to show the world how dumb a new business owner can be when they don't listen to a customer.
> 
> ...


That sucks, sorry ND


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Water heater is buried by the boiler. That's going to make replacement 49% higher.

And the vent doesn't look like it has proper rise.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Water heater is buried by the boiler. That's going to make replacement 49% higher.
> 
> And the vent doesn't look like it has proper rise.


Wow no kidding, for the HO's sake I hope that crap to the left of wtr htr is movable.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Comment from the stupid Floridian: Why does he have a standard gas water heater when he has a boiler sitting next to it? I thought the whole point of a boiler is that you have one highly efficient heater that heats your water and your living space. Should he have an indirect heater with a coil coming off of that boiler?

OK, let me have it


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

Protech said:


> Comment from the stupid Floridian: Why does he have a standard gas water heater when he has a boiler sitting next to it? I thought the whole point of a boiler is that you have one highly efficient heater that heats your water and your living space. Should he have an indirect heater with a coil coming off of that boiler?
> 
> OK, let me have it


I was wondering the same, but didn't want to be the first ignoramus to ask. I have never seen a boiler in real life, only pics on here. I am not even sure there would be one here in hotter than he'll Arkansas.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

I see homes with water heaters even though they have a boiler and could just ad a side arm.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Yea I'd be thinking indirect myself...

I believe thats a Crown Bimini which doesn't come with a DHW coil.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I prefer a seperate domestic water heater. It's whats in my house.

Why run a 100,000 btu boiler all summer?

Besides, a 50 gal Bradford gas only costs about a dollar a day.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Protech said:


> Comment from the stupid Floridian: Why does he have a standard gas water heater when he has a boiler sitting next to it? I thought the whole point of a boiler is that you have one highly efficient heater that heats your water and your living space. Should he have an indirect heater with a coil coming off of that boiler?
> 
> OK, let me have it



Not entirely sure of his reasoning Protech, but I do get a shot at adding in the indirect tank after the new year.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*thats the answer*



RealLivePlumber said:


> I prefer a seperate domestic water heater. It's whats in my house.
> 
> Why run a 100,000 btu boiler all summer?
> 
> Besides, a 50 gal Bradford gas only costs about a dollar a day.



running a boiler all summer long to heat your water is 
probably very in-efficient compaired to just having
a normal water heater in the home....

I could see putting a coil in the boiler and 
use it as a pre-heat for the tank type water 
heater through the winter months...that would be a win-win...
.

INDY... count your blessings...
I dont think you missed much not having to install a boiler..
 the new *energy-star* ones can be hell to service... 

case in point.... 

I recently recommended a contractor freind of mine
 to another freind that needed a boiler installed..... 
and its been nothing but a nightmare for both of them..... 
they cant get the damn thing to work right ,,, its a new 
*energy star type boiler* but something is wrong with
 the computor and circuit board... 


they have had tthe factory rep out and other techs trying 
to figure out the stupid thing,, so its getting ugly....


I avoid them , cause I know I would be out today
trying to get one fired up for a good customer.

murpheys law......


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Amen, brother.

I have not installed any of that energy star give me my rebate free money crap. 

Seems that most people were only caring about a rebate. Everyone instantly thought they were getting a $1500.00 check in the mail. Jeez, people, read the fine print. It was 30% of the cost, up to $1500.00 and it is a CREDIT. 

So, I lost a few jobs over it. I don't care. I won't have to worry about trying to repair this junk in the future. Who needs a circuit board in their outdoor ac condenser, to save $5.00 a month, anyway?

I can't wait till people see the price of one of those ECM motors, when the time comes:yes:. Not to mention the wait times to special order these parts.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

That may well be the case Mark, but why pass on opportunities to make money? 

Depending on what type of boiler is installed it can have several benefits, the least of those is its 95% efficiency. 
There is no standard tank that is anywhere near that efficient.
Imagine how long it takes to recover with a coil running through the inside of the tank?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*INDE...it is not an opportunity*



Indie said:


> That may well be the case Mark, but why pass on opportunities to make money?
> 
> Depending on what type of boiler is installed it can have several benefits, the least of those is its 95% efficiency.
> There is no standard tank that is anywhere near that efficient.
> Imagine how long it takes to recover with a coil running through the inside of the tank?


its not an opportunity..... its only a headache that could come back to bite you in the ass.....over and over again...all though the winter months.

you are in a small community and all it takes is one very un happy customer to get the word out you dont know what you are doing with one of those energy star boilers....you sold them

even if it is not your fault, then you got troubles keeping your reputation clean...


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## wundumguy (Apr 3, 2010)

They'll still have hot water during a power outage?


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

*A new business owner failure; lost*

Indie that was a very good lesson to learn it is difficult to really listen and hear the actual meaning. Often we hear something and then we react instead of responding. A 4 word sentence is quite often important but it is ignored and that question is; how do you mean. Next time you will be prepared to ask for clarification when a client appears to rambles.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Mention something to me like that, off the wall about some "future" work while I am there, and I am looking at it right then. A, to know what I am up against, 2- to not have to make a second trip for the diagnostic, 3- I can price it right then, and let em know what they will be looking at cost wise, and usually 50% of the time, I am back that same month doing the work.:thumbup:


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## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> running a boiler all summer long to heat your water is
> probably very in-efficient compaired to just having
> a normal water heater in the home....
> 
> ...


I think you are seriously misinformed and/or biased and your rationale might be based on some chance bad experiences that many other professional focused heating contractors will not echo. 

First off, while no mod-con can compare to the reliability of a simple continuous pilot atomspheric boiler that requires very little attention in it's lifetime, most mod-con's are respectably reliable, and their efficiency and payback in my opinion easily justifies their increased cost and sophistication. I think one problem is many contractors do not take the decision of which brand to select to base their reputation on seriously and so they end up with a bunch of red-headed step children out there that they know nothing about. If you take this decision serious of which brand of mod-con to base your reputation on (i.e. the ones with the energy star rating that are high efficiency), and you go and take the factory service training, you develop a good working relationship with your wholesaler, and the manufacturer or manufacturers rep of the mod-con you base your name on, and you develop a strong understanding of how they work, and their idiosychracies you will be surprised at how reliable they can be. I have seen several 6 plus year units that were running beautifully and all they needed was a heat exchanger cleaning and a new igniter (which is a wear item on pretty much all boilers right?). 

Within the mod-con market there ARE some manufacturers that are better than others in the above mentioned factors. It's up to you to make the decision yours. 

Second - using your boiler to heat an indirect hot water tank IS the way to go, in my opinion. Most Indirects are made out of stainless steel so they see significantly longer service lives than a standard gas water heater. Most indirects also have a higher recovery rates than your standard inefficient gas water heater due to the size of the coil/heat exchanger. So YES, I would LOVE my boiler to be heating them in the Summer. Yes, Yes, spare me with the "well you can get a higher output gas tank." But you're missing the fact that you can also get higher efficieny using a boiler to heat your indirect. A standard natural draft tank is in the 70% of less efficiency range. A standard atompsheric boiler will heat it in the 78-83% range, a mod-con will heat your indirect in the 87-92% efficiency range. You also don't have to deal with having another flue or venting complexities with a seperate tank and/or boiler which depending on how you look at it, could be an advantage or disadvantage. 

MOST mod-cons use a fairly simple set up to control the gas-air fuel ratio. They have a zero governor gas valve which is a gas valve that gives off gas at atompsheric pressure, or if you choose to reference the intake pressure, at a proportional pressure. The Boiler varies it's modulation rate by controlling the fan. The fan puts negative (suction) pressure on the zero governor gas valve which causes it to open due to this negative pressure. As you vary the fan speed (i.e. suction/negative pressure on the gas valve), the gas valve varies the amount of gas it gives off, so you get a fairly precise air/fuel ratio of the premix burner. This set up was used on many industrial burners in the 50's and 60's and then for some reason industrial burners in some cases moved away from it for some reason, but now zero governor gas valves in industrial/commercial burners are aapparently making a comeback. 

Within each mod-con you typically have a circuit board that works with several interlocks, and safeties (switches or sensors) along with temperature & pressure sensors in various locations through the boiler to ensure it is safe to ignite and/or continue the flame or leave the gas valve open, etc. Most modern circuit boards have a digital display which will give you a fault code or message that helps you narrow down your search as to what the problem might be. And failing that, your good relationship with the technical guys of the manufacturer you have a good relationship with will ensure you get things fixed right if a problem should develop. But again the problems I have seen are few and far between. Do they happen? Yes, but these machines, after you work on them enough times, are simple enough to figure out in most cases. They're sophisticated compared to a traditional continuous pilot atomspheric boiler sure, but they're not as sophisticated as you lead people to believe.

Everyone of these boilers also requires annual service to clean the heat exchanger. Some require yearly service, some every 4-6 monthes, some every 2-3, even 4 years, depending on how hard they work, and what type of heat exchanger design they employ (fire tube, or water tube, down firing, or horizontal - you visit the customer after the first heating season and that visit will help you determine their service interval). On top of the heat exchanger service, while you're there you can also check out the condition of the rest of the heating system as part of a regular service visit. You take care of your customers in this regard annually give or take and their system runs great for years to come, and your happy customer speaks glowingly of you. Any problems arise you show up and fix the problem and your solid relationship with the manufacturer/wholesaler/reps, ensures you get it fixed right asap. These boilers waste less fuel, the customer feels good about their purchase, etc. etc.


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