# K copper



## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

A engineer spect all copper to be type k on my job I'm doin. That h and c Dom and h and c hydronic. But all dwv is PVC. I'm glad for PVC faster and def lighter but I don't get the k!! All k. I don't know why but man that's some money rite there. Any one else using k or seen it spect lately??


----------



## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> A engineer spect all copper to be type k on my job I'm doin. That h and c Dom and h and c hydronic. But all dwv is PVC. I'm glad for PVC faster and def lighter but I don't get the k!! All k. I don't know why but man that's some money rite there. Any one else using k or seen it spect lately??


They spec it in high rises all the time.


----------



## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> A engineer spect all copper to be type k on my job I'm doin. That h and c Dom and h and c hydronic. But all dwv is PVC. I'm glad for PVC faster and def lighter but I don't get the k!! All k. I don't know why but man that's some money rite there. Any one else using k or seen it spect lately??


I've seen k copper, couple water services here and there. Had a guy that worked for my boss, he would order L at a supply house and go pull a stick of K. Expensive as all hell, have fun, hope it's not 2" K...


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> A engineer spect all copper to be type k on my job I'm doin. That h and c Dom and h and c hydronic. But all dwv is PVC. I'm glad for PVC faster and def lighter but I don't get the k!! All k. I don't know why but man that's some money rite there. Any one else using k or seen it spect lately??


We use k for water service from water main.. but allowed to use ploy from well pitless... stupid codes.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

504Plumber said:


> I've seen k copper, couple water services here and there. Had a guy that worked for my boss, he would order L at a supply house and go pull a stick of K. Expensive as all hell, have fun, hope it's not 2" K...


It's a asbuilt job so I havnt got that far but I know it will be 1 1/2 and down why do you say that on 2" cuz of the weight ??

I have the Milwaukee 12v copper tubing cutters. Anyone use those ?? On. K ?


----------



## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> It's a asbuilt job so I havnt got that far but I know it will be 1 1/2 and down why do you say that on 2" cuz of the weight ??
> 
> I have the Milwaukee 12v copper tubing cutters. Anyone use those ?? On. K ?


Yeah because of weight, 2" L is heavy enough.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

K is red lettering ?? It's been a long while we only use it for steam condensate !!


----------



## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> K is red lettering ?? It's been a long while we only use it for steam condensate !!


M is Red
K is Green
L is Blue
DWV is Yellow


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Killertoiletspider said:


> M is Red
> K is Green
> L is Blue
> DWV is Yellow


Thanks. Mostly all L around here never used dwv 
That's got to be pretty thin wall pipe.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

http://www.copper.org/publications/pub_list/pdf/copper_tube_handbook.pdf


Free PDF handbook. A bit if reading never hurt anyon


----------



## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> A engineer spect all copper to be type k on my job I'm doin. That h and c Dom and h and c hydronic. But all dwv is PVC. I'm glad for PVC faster and def lighter but I don't get the k!! All k. I don't know why but man that's some money rite there. Any one else using k or seen it spect lately??


K for multistory with booster pump systems, underground utility water, and some municipalities (College Station for example) require all copper below grade to be K.


----------



## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

Just did a high school in Kansas that was spec'd K. 
4" K copper pro pressed is not easy. I broke a Nibco gun and we had to re-calibrate twice. the wall thickness on 4" K is an 1/8 inch. good times.


----------



## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Done K in med gas applications. That's about it. Or underground has to be K here.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Rando said:


> Just did a high school in Kansas that was spec'd K.
> 4" K copper pro pressed is not easy. I broke a Nibco gun and we had to re-calibrate twice. the wall thickness on 4" K is an 1/8 inch. good times.


4" press. How much is a coupling for that. A new school ??


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> A engineer spect all copper to be type k on my job I'm doin. That h and c Dom and h and c hydronic. But all dwv is PVC. I'm glad for PVC faster and def lighter but I don't get the k!! All k. I don't know why but man that's some money rite there. Any one else using k or seen it spect lately??


 







Just think how fast your scrap bucket will fill up with all that heavy 'K', uh I mean the boss's scrap bucket....:laughing:


----------



## Rcplumber (Feb 27, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> Just think how fast your scrap bucket will fill up with all that heavy 'K', uh I mean the boss's scrap bucket....:laughing:


Small ones go in lunch bucket , boots , under hard hat I've seen labors take it out in ever place thinkable O clean up crew throws it a special box and get it out of dumpster later


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Container on site with joints and all scrap will be picked up and locked in container too!! Bundle of 1/2 k us heavy as heck


----------



## Rcplumber (Feb 27, 2011)

We use a gang box for our scraps copper loves to walk off if its in small sizes


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Ares is a conex container. With big trash can for scraps


----------



## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Rando said:


> Just did a high school in Kansas that was spec'd K.
> 4" K copper pro pressed is not easy. I broke a Nibco gun and we had to re-calibrate twice. the wall thickness on 4" K is an 1/8 inch. good times.


I would have gone with Gruv Lok.


----------



## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

Seen it spec'd but I just use L anyway. Never been caught. They don't know they have they're head up their azz.


----------



## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)




----------



## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

johnlewismcleod said:


>


Likewise!


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

fightnews said:


> Seen it spec'd but I just use L anyway. Never been caught. They don't know they have they're head up their azz.


He's being a BH with 13 years of what experinces with limited intro.


----------



## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

fightnews said:


> Seen it spec'd but I just use L anyway. Never been caught. They don't know they have they're head up their azz.


Seen a company here recently rough in a 90,000 square foot building with foam core and they used type L copper for the water riser and all the looped lines to islands. An engineer for the owner came out and was just looking around taking pictures . The next day the plumbing company had to rip out all of the dwv rough and all the water reinstall it per spec and get it all reinpected. What do you think that cost them?


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

justme said:


> Seen a company here recently rough in a 90,000 square foot building with foam core and they used type L copper for the water riser and all the looped lines to islands. An engineer for the owner came out and was just looking around taking pictures . The next day the plumbing company had to rip out all of the dwv rough and all the water reinstall it per spec and get it all reinpected. What do you think that cost them?


I'd cry throw up and chit all in one moment


----------



## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I'd cry throw up and chit all in one moment


Id follow the spec in the first place...
:whistling2:


----------



## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

The owner of that company plumbered up and made it right. The top out they done a superb job after they read the spec book about a dozen times. Moral of the story bid it to install it per spec .


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

justme said:


> Seen a company here recently rough in a 90,000 square foot building with foam core and they used type L copper for the water riser and all the looped lines to islands. An engineer for the owner came out and was just looking around taking pictures . The next day the plumbing company had to rip out all of the dwv rough and all the water reinstall it per spec and get it all reinpected. What do you think that cost them?


Ohhhh, a lot of newly scraps!!


----------



## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Yep the owner of the store had us inspecting it for them after that, I have never seen a bigger pile of scrap pvc in my life . It would have taken a 20 40 yard dumpster to fit all the pvc in.


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

justme said:


> Yep the owner of the store had us inspecting it for them after that, I have never seen a bigger pile of scrap pvc in my life . It would have taken a 20 40 yard dumpster to fit all the pvc in.


Guess its recycled into newly scrapped pvc furnitures?


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

U666A said:


> Id follow the spec in the first place...
> :whistling2:


Well duh!!!!


----------



## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

The owner of the plumbing company told the GC that it was only a 5 or 10 percent difference in price between foam core and Sch 40. I just laughed and said no its like 30 to 40 percent difference in price. He was trying to claim he just made a mistake when he ordered the materials and wasn't trying to save a lot of money.lol


----------



## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

justme said:


> The owner of the plumbing company told the GC that it was only a 5 or 10 percent difference in price between foam core and Sch 40. I just laughed and said no its like 30 to 40 percent difference in price. He was trying to claim he just made a mistake when he ordered the materials and wasn't trying to save a lot of money.lol


He can buy a new truck with all that money he saved :yes:....oh, wait! :blink:

What I meant to say is he can sell his boat, his wife's SUV, and his vacation house to_ pay_ for all that money he saved :yes::laughing:


----------



## phishfood (Nov 18, 2012)

The company I work for did a big Disney project last year. I heard that they had the first building of underground in, Disney's rep came along. "Nice looking plumbing, now take it out and put in all Charlotte like it was specified". OOOPS.


----------



## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

Killertoiletspider said:


> I would have gone with Gruv Lok.


 Yeah sure. 
ever heard of a Spec book? ever heard of Commissioning?


----------



## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Rando said:


> Yeah sure.
> ever heard of a Spec book? ever heard of Commissioning?


You don't know much about KTS, brother :no:...you're out of line :yes:


----------



## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Rando said:


> Yeah sure.
> ever heard of a Spec book? ever heard of Commissioning?


Just because some architect that has never installed a piece of pipe specs something is not the end all be all, specs get changed all the time because there is a reason to change them. I wish I had a dollar for every time I saw something speced that was unfit for the application.


----------



## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

johnlewismcleod said:


> You don't know much about KTS, brother :no:...you're out of line :yes:


How am I out of line. 



Killertoiletspider said:


> Just because some architect that has never installed a piece of pipe specs something is not the end all be all, specs get changed all the time because there is a reason to change them. I wish I had a dollar for every time I saw something speced that was unfit for the application.


You can't just put in whatever type of material you want. Thats ridiculous on a big project. 
If you meant to say I would have put in an RFI to try to get the spec changed, then thats what you should have said. I do that all the time.
If you just go and put in whatever material you want when ever you want... good luck to you. You're going to cost yourself or your company a lot of money some day.


----------



## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Most of us are much too savvy to just depart from the spec without approval (and KTS certainly is). All he was saying is that gruvlock on big pipe is a really good option to use when available.

You read into it much more than was there. 

KTS is one of our skyscraper plumbers...he knows what he's doing out there when it comes to big systems :yes:


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

johnlewismcleod said:


> Most of us are much to savvy to just depart from the spec without approval (and KTS certainly is). All he was saying is that gruvlock on big pipe is a really good option to use when available.
> 
> You read into it much more than was there.
> 
> KTS is one of our skyscraper plumbers...he knows what he's doing out there when it comes to big systems :yes:


I may not see eye to eye with kts on religion but all stated above is true. He knows a lot and I've learnd some from his post a2+b2=c2. Lmao. My way works too but the square method will always work 


Is this grooved copper with Vic's on it ??


----------



## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I may not see eye to eye with kts on religion but all stated above is true. He knows a lot and I've learnd some from his post a2+b2=c2. Lmao. My way works too but the square method will always work
> 
> 
> Is this grooved copper with Vic's on it ??


Yes...grooved rocks big time when running 3" and bigger :yes: The only potential problem is rubber fatigue if running hot water over 160 F. 

KTS was pointing out how superior grooved is over propress when running large K copper. Big K is rough on propress tools and jaws.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Never seen it in person. Only pics on here. Now a Vic on copper I could stand behind a lot better then pro press. Is it easy to roll groove copper??


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Never seen it in person. Only pics on here. Now a Vic on copper I could stand behind a lot better then pro press. Is it easy to roll groove copper??


Don't use it on drop header system!


----------



## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Never seen it in person. Only pics on here. Now a Vic on copper I could stand behind a lot better then pro press. Is it easy to roll groove copper??


It's easy with some practice...yes. 

There's a few tricks you have to learn to get good, of course. 

I've run into several plumbers I had to just keep away from the groover, though...you got to be conscientious from cut to finish.


----------



## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Don't use it on drop header system!


Yep...unsupported drops got to be threaded or welded :yes:


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

johnlewismcleod said:


> Yep...drops got to be threaded or welded :yes:


N ooooooooo...... not welded!! The header needs movement and threaded fittings will allow that.. unless there's unoins or flange unions.. better off with threaded fittings til after the header system.


----------



## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

johnlewismcleod said:


> It's easy with some practice...yes.
> 
> There's a few tricks you have to learn to get good, of course.
> 
> I've run into several plumbers I had to just keep away from the groover, though...you got to be conscientious from cut to finish.


I've seen way more guys f up sch 10 stainless with a groover for some reason.


----------



## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> N ooooooooo...... not welded!! The header needs movement and threaded fittings will allow that.. unless there's unoins or flange unions.. better off with threaded fittings til after the header system.


I've welded as many drops as I've threaded, but I'm not sure what you mean by "header". I'll take your word for it, though...all I'm saying is that grooved works good run horizontal on supports, or stacked vertically...you just need to avoid hanging drops where the joint is held together by the collars.

Groove joints need support throughout.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Iv grooved a lot of blk pipe. Is it the Sam Grover but diff wheels maybe ??


----------



## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

johnlewismcleod said:


> I've welded as many drops as I've threaded, but I'm not sure what you mean by "header". I'll take your word for it, though...all I'm saying is that grooved works good run horizontal on supports, or stacked vertically...you just need to avoid hanging drops where the joint is held together by the collars.
> 
> Groove joints need support throughout.


I meant the drop header for above steam boiler.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Wtf is a drop header. ??


----------



## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Iv grooved a lot of blk pipe. Is it the Sam Grover but diff wheels maybe ??


If you can groove steel, you can groove copper just the same :yes:


----------



## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> I meant the drop header for above steam boiler.


Ahhhh...gotcha  

You're right...too much movement there for sure :yes:


----------



## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Iv grooved a lot of blk pipe. Is it the Sam Grover but diff wheels maybe ??


Yup, different rollers. Easy changeover, depending on the machine.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Empty ur pm box UA


----------



## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Done


----------



## Rcplumber (Feb 27, 2011)

Groove copper is same as groove steal but with different wheels on grooving machine


----------



## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> 4" press. How much is a coupling for that. A new school ??


Brand new high school. 
not sure about couplings but a 4" tee was about $160 and a stick of 4" K is about $700


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Il see what a 4" sweat tee is. Here. I just think I'd rather have the money in my pocket and stay on the job longer then Press it all and be gone. I bet that the time it takes me to prep and sweat it is less in labor then the price difference. I mite be wrong tho !!!


----------



## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Rcplumber said:


> Groove copper is same as groove steal but with different wheels on grooving machine


You can groove copper with the same rollers you grove steel with :yes:

The groove width and shoulder is the same spec for both. 

I'm not sure why Ridgid sells copper tube rollers to change out with steel rollers except that maybe the copper rollers are wider or something to make it easier on soft metal. 

I'm not sure if I've ever grooved with copper specific rollers or not, but I can say I've grooved plenty of copper with steel rollers without any issues :yes:


----------



## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Il see what a 4" sweat tee is. Here. I just think I'd rather have the money in my pocket and stay on the job longer then Press it all and be gone. I bet that the time it takes me to prep and sweat it is less in labor then the price difference. I mite be wrong tho !!!


I would rather sweat. Thank goodness pro press got turned down on my current project. 

Personally I don't think pro press costs much less in the long run. maybe even more. Not really that much faster if you prep your pipe correctly.


----------



## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

johnlewismcleod said:


> You can groove copper with the same rollers you grove steel with :yes:
> 
> The groove width and shoulder is the same spec for both.
> 
> ...


They must have changed it then. I know plumbers that grooved with the steel head and had to rip it all out. I'm talking victaulic, not sure if there's a different grooved system out there.


----------



## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

RW Plumbing said:


> They must have changed it then. I know plumbers that grooved with the steel head and had to rip it all out. I'm talking victaulic, not sure if there's a different grooved system out there.


I can't explain that.

I don't own my own groover yet, so I've always grooved with what I was given. There is a remote possibility the three shops I've grooved for have provided different 975's depending of the pipe, but I'm almost certain that I used the same unmodified groovers for each job.

I didn't even know there _were_ copper rollers until this post :no:

I don't want to set myself up as the resident grooving expert, though. I've just grooved lots and lots of pipe both steel and copper and never had a problem once I got proficient with the machine. I've mostly used this one:










Best rule of thumb is to stick with the tool maker's spec, though. 

I'll be checking up on the rollers next time I run victaulic for sure :yes:


----------



## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

This is the system that we are putting in now and it has its own grooving machine.

http://www.anvilintl.com/News/CTSCopper.aspx


----------



## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

But you can change the rollers to do steel pipe


----------



## Rcplumber (Feb 27, 2011)

Ever groove job I use I always get a anvil set up the supply house loans us the groove machine to put on our ridged machine and I deal with Eric the tex and oklahome sales rep


----------



## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I always used the victaulic branded machine. Haven't grooved a joint in a few years though.


----------



## score300 (Feb 1, 2013)

I understand that some jobs spec type k, but aren't all copper fittings type L? so why would you use type K pipe unless you're using brass fittings(which I haven't seen in years) I do all commercial plumbing, but it's light commercial like restaurants, vet clinics and interior build outs.


----------



## Rcplumber (Feb 27, 2011)

U know that does make sence all fittings r type l and a lot of school and gov jobs spe out 2 b k never thought about that y spec k if they don't make k fittings


----------



## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Viega pro press fittings are k.:jester:


----------



## Rcplumber (Feb 27, 2011)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Viega pro press fittings are k.:jester:


Yea that's true I've seen a so called foreman running a job at a previous company order several propress fitting got both Xl and xlc fittings that showed me he was lost pulled them out and gave him a school lesson at lunch when nobody else was around so not to piss him off


----------

