# would like your opinion



## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

Do you lie to your customers? In 2000 I started working for this company. the first 2 yrs were great as I was doing commercial plumbing and I had a really great boss. When work slowed down in 2002 they ask me to go work in a different department. (sewer and water line repairs) Well this guy knew very little about plumbing he was hired to be a salesmen and to get jobs for the company. Well we would go into peoples homes to unstop a kitchen sink that was full of grease and he would tell them that all thier waste pipe was bad and had to be replaced even after I told him that the plumbing was ok. Another example I went into a house to fix a leaking solder joint on a water heater. He came in there and told the people that all thier copper pipe was rotten and needed to be replaced. when i told him that there was nothing wrong with the pipe he told me not to say anything to them. After he left the homeowner approached me and and ask me about the pipe. Well I don't like lying so I reluctantly told him that I saw nothing wrong with the pipe. So I just fixed the leak and the owner thanked me for my honesty I went back to the shop. When my supervisor ask me why I was back so soon I told him that the owner ask me what I thought about the pipe and that he decided not to replace it. Well my supervisor jumped all over me telling me I made him look bad in front of that customer. My question is was I wrong in telling the customer the truth? When I approached my supervisors boss and told him what happened he just made a joke about it. This is just one instant there are many more. I won't even mention what he would do when we started doing sewer lateral lining.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

I think you did the right thing. If a customer really needs something replaced the sure sell it the best you can to get them to buy it. If they don't need it then just make the fix give them your card and ask them to remember you when the need thier next repair or replacement. I would look for a job with a company that won't make you be dishonest.

Plumber Jim


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

Plumber Jim said:


> I think you did the right thing. If a customer really needs something replaced the sure sell it the best you can to get them to buy it. If they don't need it then just make the fix give them your card and ask them to remember you when the need thier next repair or replacement. I would look for a job with a company that won't make you be dishonest.
> 
> Plumber Jim


 did better than that I opened my own business. thanks for replying


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Karma.Karma.Karma. You did the right thing. Most normal people that can afford a plumber to begin with, work just as hard for their money as we do.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

I'm a consumer, too. I hate getting ripped off and it happens all too often.

There's enough real plumbing problems out there that we don't have to lie. I've never done that.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

You find the ones that sell people stuff they don't need tend to either not be a plumber ( hack ) or a very bad one.


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## leak1 (Mar 25, 2009)

honesty and quality is the name of the game fellas ! the crooks and bullshitters dont last long around my area !!!!!!!


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## gplumb (Nov 21, 2008)

you did the right thing. when i worked for a service shop this is what i hated, that boss was looking for salesmen plumbers, not good mechanics. i remember he would send inexperienced plumber out because they would usually sell rather than fix the issue.


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## UnclogNH (Mar 28, 2009)

You did the rite thing. Back when I worked for Roto- you know who?
I was on commission. At Roto- you pay for everything and only got 30% So we had to lie because you had bills to pay Van, gas,ins, everything
Lying was part of the job with them. made me feel bad had to do what you had to do. But where I'm in business for myself now I tell the truth get a to of repeat call just on trust plus word of mouth.
Since I left Roto- I am proud to say I have been poop free in everyone's basement lol. :thumbsup:


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## pcplumber (Feb 10, 2009)

*Oliver Twist*

This remind me of the story Oliver Twist where the children are sent out to pick pockets and then punished when they return with nothing.

Before we attempt to close a sale we always clean the drain and solve the customer's problem, first. We do encounter drains that we cannot clear and the customer always gets upset and tells us their other plumbers never had a problem. So, clean the drain, show the customer that it is working, and look for something to sell. If there is nothing to sell, write the receipt as fast as possible and move on to the next job. Maybe, this customer will call you for something else.

I see nothing wrong with clearning a stoppage, ask how often the drain clogs, talk about the mess, inconvenience, loss of work (if applicable) embarassment when having a party, etc., and selling an entire drainage system. As mentioned in many posts, you should not feel empowered to make decisions for your customer.

Of course, if a copper water pipe system is perfect, we walk away. On the other side, we sell many copper repipes to people who have 100% copper. In fact, this morning we got a call from a customer who has a pinhole leak in a copper pipe. We had a customer, last year, who had leaks in his copper pipes on three separate occassions and he had to call a restoration company three times to dry the structure underneath the house.

But, to answer your question. I would never, never, ever ask or tell an employee to lie to a customer.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Isn't selling something they don't need a form of a lie? If a customer has a single branch drain line problem, why would they need an entire new drainage system? Wouldn't you replace the single line?


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

We are supposed to be the professionals. People look to us for expert repairs as well as expert advice. If we starting acting like a stereotypical used car salesman. We will be treated as such. 

It's not about gross sales or upselling. In my mind it is about entering the clients home and giving them our honest professional opinion. As we are trusted to do. Once we look at the problem(s), then we should give them reasonable options.

We shouldn't sell repipes when we know, based on our training and years of experience, the problem does not call for such a knee jerk reaction.

How many years has/is it taking us to buck the butt-crack image?

Do you really want to have to buck the used car salesman image?

All you little guys are paying the price for the big boys with their scripts and high pressure sales. The HO is in the defensive bracing position before you even walk in the door.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Prov. 28:6:thumbsup:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

We use the NIV at our house: 

*Better a poor man whose walk is blameless 
than a rich man whose ways are perverse*.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Ditto, I'm just old school Missouri Synod (kinda) Happy Palm Sunday


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

I would not work for a company that would expect me to lie. However, if I saw something that didn't appear right, I would not address it in front of the customer and risk embarrassing the company I worked for. A call should have been made to the office as soon as possible to speak with someone in charge. I would have insisted the service manager come take a look, if he knew it was a slick con job and wanted me to go along with it, that would have been my last day. At that point, I would have suggested the HO get a second opinion. My principles are not for sale. 

As much as possible and to a fault, I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt until they have proved otherwise. Sometimes things aren't always as they appear.

I.E. - The salesman was not properly trained and really believed a re-pipe was in order


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> I would not work for a company that would expect me to lie. However, if I saw something that didn't appear right, I would not address it in front of the customer and risk embarrassing the company I worked for. A call should have been made to the office as soon as possible to speak with someone in charge. I would have insisted the service manager come take a look, if he knew it was a slick con job and wanted me to go along with it, that would have been my last day. At that point, I would have suggested the HO get a second opinion. My principles are not for sale.
> 
> As much as possible and to a fault, I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt until they have proved otherwise. Sometimes things aren't always as they appear.
> 
> I.E. - The salesman was not properly trained and really believed a re-pipe was in order


 
First thing here is I did not discuss it in front of the customers. I told my supervisor in privacy that there was nothing wrong with the pipes. The homeowner was wise enough to realize on his own that there was something not right with what he was saying and the homeowner approached me. I did not lie to him so if that is wrong then I am guilty. Secondly I did approach the owner of the company and told him how i felt about replacing perfedctly good plumbing and all he did was make a joke about it. Thirdly it is easy to say you would not work there anymore but jobs around here are not that easy to find. Trust me I know this I tried for 6 months to find one but with the recession and so many plumbers getting laid off I finally gave up and decided to open my own business. The home owner did get a second opinion and it was me that gave it to him. And finally you are right the salesman (supervisor) was not experienced enough to tell if the pipes were bad but with my 30 yrs experience I feel I was qualified and I told him that and he still told the owner that all the pipe needed replaced. And lastly this is only a couple of examples he did this on a daily basis it wasn't the first or the last time.


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## KratzerPlumbing (Feb 23, 2009)

Plumber hacks lieing to customers to bulk up their paycheck is one of my biggest industry pet peeves. That and all the cheap crap parts coming from China:furious:


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

:thumbup:


KratzerPlumbing said:


> Plumber hacks lieing to customers to bulk up their paycheck is one of my biggest industry pet peeves. That and all the cheap crap parts coming from China:furious:


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## leak1 (Mar 25, 2009)

*ill drink to that! hell ill drink to anything, *


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Lying to customers, absolutely not, never!!! Presenting customer with options and letting them choose, absolutely yes, always!!! Now repipes are a bit of an extreme example because it's unusual for most areas to imagine the need for a complete repipe over a single failure. Anyone who knows me personally would know that I am absolutely NOT a high pressure guy. I don't like high pressure people, they make me suspicious of what they are telling me. 

In older homes here there is a lot of galvanized water piping and 2" waste lines. These are always suspect because they deteriorate so badly. Before cleaning a 2" galvanized kitchen sink line, I inspect the full length of the line when possible, to look for the tell tale signs of rust and/or mineral deposits. If I find them I will absolutely tell the ho that it should be replaced and not to even bother with trying to clean it. I never used to do this, I would simply clean the line. I started doing it when one day I sent my mini rooter down the line and realized at a certain point that the cable was feeding very easily, too easily. I go in the garage/basement and find about 20 feet or so of my cable lying on the floor and a collosal mess from where the cable had knocked out the bottom of the rotten line.

In probably 90% of my area I would not consider suggesting an entire copper repipe to a ho for a simple leak. However, in roughly 10% of my area, Total and RetiredRooter can attest to this, it will prove necessary because of the mineral content of the water. Once it leaks due to pitting the first time it will not stop. It's impossible to predict when the next leak will occur but it will and by the time the first leak happens, the system is no longer reliable in my view. Plenty of plumbers are willing to keep patching it every few months but this is not in the ho's interest since in the long run it will cost them less to go ahead and repipe now. I don't know what anyone else does but a copper water line repair that is completely and easily accessible starts at $200 plus the service charge of $59 for me. When the pitting becomes advanced the leaks become more frequent. So is it better to tell the ho "oh I can fix this" and have them pay a couple of thousand in repair bills (and this does not even consider the possiblility of property damage due to the leaks) over the course of a few years only to finally tell them "well you probably need a repipe" or just go ahead and tell them they need a repipe to begin with. 

So now the question is what was the nature of the problem? If the guy was simply trying to sell something that was unnecessary AS THOUGH IT WERE NECESSARY then you absolutely did the right thing. If the nature of the prob lem was such that there will be continuing deterioration resulting ultimately in a repipe, then no, you did not do the right thing. Inform the ho, this is what happened and why, if it will continue tell them so, if you have no reason to believe it will continue then tell them so. If it will solve an ongoing problem, offer them the repipe and let them decide whether to continue to patch it or replace it.

If I worked under someone who I felt was dishonest, I would have to start looking for something else. Dishonesty comes in a lot of disguises however, and in my view, if there exists a problem that will likely be ongoing, then it is just as dishonest to "fix" the leak rather than make the ho aware of what is going on and why. Repair is not always the right answer. Sometimes the right thing to do is replace. I don't think we have quite enough information to know in your case.

Also, I'm a little confused because I don't think I've ever heard of the arrangement you've described whereby a qualified plumber went on calls accompanied by a salesman? In my view, a qualified plumber has no need of a salesman to come along. If he is good he will have become a good salesman already. Our job is to assess the ho's plumbing and give them accurate council. We don't have to hunt for anything or coerce anyone. If every ho simply took care of every plumbing deficiency in their home, everyone on this forum would be a millionaire in short order. There is absolutely no need to make anything up. Just point it out to the ho, lay out the possible options, and let them choose. A lot of people are going to choose to hang on to their crappy stuff for a variety of reasons. Usually it's because they would rather get the kids new school clothes or pay their car payment rather than get rid of that awful (not so) polished brass faucet. It works fine so they choose to live with the ugly. Ok, I can relate, but that doesn't mean that I'm not going to pull out something new and shiny from off of my truck to see if I can get them to bite. My kids need clothes too. I don't care what anybody says, there is nothing wrong with that. Now if I tell them that they absolutely must replace that faucet because it will fail and flood their house at any moment and that the flaked off finish has exposed a toxic base metal that endangers their health, then yes, I have definately crossed a line and have proven myself a liar. But don't think for one moment that I won't wave that new shiny faucet in front of their face, all the while declaring it's many fine attributes, while reminding them that we accept both Visa and Mastercard. I won't tell them they need it but I absolutely will do everything I can to make them want it!!!


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

smellslike$tome said:


> Lying to customers, absolutely not, never!!! Presenting customer with options and letting them choose, absolutely yes, always!!! Now repipes are a bit of an extreme example because it's unusual for most areas to imagine the need for a complete repipe over a single failure. Anyone who knows me personally would know that I am absolutely NOT a high pressure guy. I don't like high pressure people, they make me suspicious of what they are telling me.
> 
> In older homes here there is a lot of galvanized water piping and 2" waste lines. These are always suspect because they deteriorate so badly. Before cleaning a 2" galvanized kitchen sink line, I inspect the full length of the line when possible, to look for the tell tale signs of rust and/or mineral deposits. If I find them I will absolutely tell the ho that it should be replaced and not to even bother with trying to clean it. I never used to do this, I would simply clean the line. I started doing it when one day I sent my mini rooter down the line and realized at a certain point that the cable was feeding very easily, too easily. I go in the garage/basement and find about 20 feet or so of my cable lying on the floor and a collosal mess from where the cable had knocked out the bottom of the rotten line.
> 
> ...


 
Ok let me explain this a little. the leak was on a joint and it was obvious it was on a joint. when i took it apart you could tell that the solder had not been suck all the way in. To be honest I don't know how the pipe stayed together for as long as it did. If the leak had been on the pipe itself then I would have been concerned but like I said it was obviuos it was on a joint. As for the kitchen line it was abs plastic pipe not galv which I probably did n't make clear. And the reason the salesman would come along on the jobs is so that he could try to control us and what we said to the ho. he is a decieving conniving man. In all my years as a plumber I have never worked with someone who was so deceptive with people as he was. He was an embarassment to work for and i cannot think of a happier day in my life as the day that he fired me. I was so glad to get away from that situation. My dr. even said that if I would have continued working for him I would have died at a very young age due to the stress that he was putting me under. I know that is a powerful statement but lying to me is just as bad as stealing or committing other crimes. and in a way we were stealing from theses people. I could go on and on about some of the deceptiveness this guy did to get jobs but i would be on here for hours explaining it all. I just wish that I had listened to my fellow employees and never gone to work for him and stayed with the commercial plumbing. Since I have not worked for him my blood pressure has gone down my headaches are all but gone acid indigestion has reduced greatly and I am sleeping all through the night instead of waking up in the middle of the night worried about how we cheated our customers. well I just wanted to ask a simple question did n't mean to get into all this but at least you guys have given me a reason to believe that what i did was right. There is just too much legimate work out there that we shouldn't have to lie to get more.


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## leak1 (Mar 25, 2009)

are you sure it couldnt be cleanmypipes (suzy) getting your blood pressure up!!!!!!!!!


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

i am sure but i did find out something this week........you don't eat her butterfinger candy bars.


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## leak1 (Mar 25, 2009)

let go of my eggo!!!!!!!


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

al said:


> i am sure but i did find out something this week........you don't eat her butterfinger candy bars.


I sort of like the new Snickers with almonds, I have them for breakfast. My supplier sells them at the counter!:thumbup:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

[


> quote=al,s sewer;35845]First thing here is I did not discuss it in front of the customers. I told my supervisor in privacy that there was nothing wrong with the pipes. The homeowner was wise enough to realize on his own that there was something not right with what he was saying and the homeowner approached me. I did not lie to him so if that is wrong then I am guilty. Secondly I did approach the owner of the company and told him how i felt about replacing perfedctly good plumbing and all he did was make a joke about it.


What you did was perfectly appropriate and any moral person would have done the same. I wasn't judging you, I would have handled it the same way.



> Thirdly it is easy to say you would not work there anymore but jobs around here are not that easy to find. Trust me I know this I tried for 6 months to find one but with the recession and so many plumbers getting laid off I finally gave up and decided to open my own business.


I understand tight job markets very well and I am not perfect. When I said it would have been my last day - I meant it. I couldn't physically do it. My thoughts are very transparent and faking it would have been obvious to all concerned. Tossing and turning and feeling dishonest would eat me alive. Every time you compromise your values, you risk losing more than a paycheck. It sounds like your body was making you pay.

Glad to hear you were able to make a change and move on.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

Al said:


> at least you guys have given me a reason to believe that what i did was right.


Getting out of there was the best thing you could have done. I could not have worked a day for someone who pulled that kind of stunt on me. Even when I was a lowly apprentice, if someone had sent a jerk like that along with me I would have walked away from it. But first, I would have made sure that the homeowner that was being ripped off never hired that company again.


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> [
> 
> What you did was perfectly appropriate and any moral person would have done the same. I wasn't judging you, I would have handled it the same way.
> 
> ...


 
were good plumb crazy. did n't mean to sound defensive was just trying to make things a little clearer for you. :thumbup:as far as faking it I am not very good at it either thats why I always hoped the ho would ask my opinion so I could tell him the truth. I am not the only plumber that worked for that company that felt that way and like me the rest of them moved on. I also feel though that by staying there a little longer that I did help to save a few ho from this guys deceptiveness and unethical business practices. The worst part about it is that he not only would lie to the ho,s but he would lie to the men that work for him and to his superiors. I like money but i like to make it honestly and I have vowed never to treat my customers like that. but like i said in the other post there is so much more i could tell you about him but there is just not enough time left in my lifetime :laughing::laughing:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Glad that's resolved.

Liars - I cannot tell you how many times I hear, my friend is a liar/thief/con man etc. When I ask why do you associate with them the reply is ALWAYS the same. They're my friend - they wouldn't stick it to me. 

Are you kidding? The only reason they have not stuck it to you yet is because the reward isn't big enough yet. 

Long, long time ago I use to have a list of Ten Demandments from an employer. One day, I will have to find it because it was good.

One of the demandments was 'Don't steal for me. Someone who would steal for me would be willing to steal from me.'


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

:thumbup:


PlumbCrazy said:


> Glad that's resolved.
> 
> Liars - I cannot tell you how many times I hear, my friend is a liar/thief/con man etc. When I ask why do you associate with them the reply is ALWAYS the same. They're my friend - they wouldn't stick it to me.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I once worked at a company where success was largly driven by how hard you could crook a customer to beef up those commissions...

Tough place to be for an honest guy.

The close rate statistics are so skewed by the close rates of those who crook that they actually falsely believe the quality of the leads provided to their employees...

Oh yea the meetings where they sing praise to the "Top Producer" AKA biggest crook I ever met...

Follow this guy on a callback...
Initial call was a toilet that wouldn't flush properly...
Job sold: The whole house special... Every line in the house is snaked and the toilets are all agered... What a deal! 

The problem...
The next day the toilet that wouldn't flush...
Well it still wouldn't flush...

Pretty easy to see the internal water passages were plugged up pretty well with minerals and the water wasn't getting to the bowl fast enough...
Bottom line the customer needed a new toilet...
Problem was the money they would have used to have us put in a new toilet was used up buying something that was not needed...:furious:

Kinda funny though...
Can you imagine that a Top Producer like that a month or so later would be fired because he stared crooking the company and doing jobs on the side...
Go figure...:laughing:
I just can't understand how that could possibly happen...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

So let me get this straight. You had a customer with a failing copper system and you replaced it with another copper system??



pcplumber said:


> This remind me of the story Oliver Twist where the children are sent out to pick pockets and then punished when they return with nothing.
> 
> Before we attempt to close a sale we always clean the drain and solve the customer's problem, first. We do encounter drains that we cannot clear and the customer always gets upset and tells us their other plumbers never had a problem. So, clean the drain, show the customer that it is working, and look for something to sell. If there is nothing to sell, write the receipt as fast as possible and move on to the next job. Maybe, this customer will call you for something else.
> 
> ...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

In my area, Those numbers are reversed. About 90% of the homes with copper start failing catastrophically after the 1st leak. It seems to go by neighborhood. Some neighborhoods never leak, and with others it seems like I'm in there every week. I always recommend a repipe in the bad neighborhoods because I already no what's going to happen. If I’m in a good area (leak wise) I tell them to fix the first one and we will wait and see.

Never lie to a customer. I agree with ILPlumber, it’s hard enough as it is to uphold the plumber as the most professional and skilled tradesmen. Don’t be a sleaze and you should spread the word about companies and individuals that are.



smellslike$tome said:


> Lying to customers, absolutely not, never!!! Presenting customer with options and letting them choose, absolutely yes, always!!! Now repipes are a bit of an extreme example because it's unusual for most areas to imagine the need for a complete repipe over a single failure. Anyone who knows me personally would know that I am absolutely NOT a high pressure guy. I don't like high pressure people, they make me suspicious of what they are telling me.
> 
> In older homes here there is a lot of galvanized water piping and 2" waste lines. These are always suspect because they deteriorate so badly. Before cleaning a 2" galvanized kitchen sink line, I inspect the full length of the line when possible, to look for the tell tale signs of rust and/or mineral deposits. If I find them I will absolutely tell the ho that it should be replaced and not to even bother with trying to clean it. I never used to do this, I would simply clean the line. I started doing it when one day I sent my mini rooter down the line and realized at a certain point that the cable was feeding very easily, too easily. I go in the garage/basement and find about 20 feet or so of my cable lying on the floor and a collosal mess from where the cable had knocked out the bottom of the rotten line.
> 
> ...


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