# State heater



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Have a State Water Heater. 7-8 years old, natural gas, residential 40, FVIR. 

Complaint: Pilot and or gas going out intermittent, can be lit, but not each and every-time. 

Cleaned lint of screen at bottom of heater, as they were clearly dirty. Water heater has worked fine for the last couple of months, until last night. 

Customer called today and said he had to light it again, but this time it is was very hard to light, but once it did light it worked fine. 

Due to its age he decided to replace it. But that leaves me wondering if I should have been able to do something more. 

There are times I wonder if I shouldn't try to be more service oriented with that stuff, but dropping a couple hundred into a water heater seems like a bad investment, so I usually recommend replacement. But.... 

Should there be more diagnostic? Did I miss something?


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Probably just a bad thermocoupling.....few bucks. Problem is if you take apart the FVIR you probably want to replace the gaskets to cya. Still, not that pricey.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Some of the newer gas valves you can do a reset if the FVIR system shuts the heater down. I know this doesn't answer this question but...


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Indie said:


> Have a State Water Heater. 7-8 years old, natural gas, residential 40, FVIR.
> <snip>
> 
> 
> ...


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Gettinit said:


> Probably just a bad thermocoupling.....few bucks. Problem is if you take apart the FVIR you probably want to replace the gaskets to cya. Still, not that pricey.



I thought similar, but did not want to pull assembly as State recommends burner assembly replacement. 

Also, the problem is not just a pilot, customer said he watched the flames on the burner jump around and go out once this am. 

When I cleaned the screens last time it fired up perfect and did not act up again for a couple of months. In my experience a thermocouple goes out and stays out most of the time.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

7-8 yr old State prolly had the thermal switch built into the TC. The only thing to do would have been clean the filter and the flame arrestor, change the TC. IMO, you did the right thing. Could be feeding a dying horse.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Of course State would recommend that repair because any good plumber would replace the heater for the same reason you replaced yours. Was it a standard gas valve? Was there a draft inducer motor used? Direct vent? I have seen a loose ground wire cause the gas to go out.

Going on a standard gas valve with no prior history I would have checked the filter, thermocouple, the distances from ignitor and ground - clean, check for pinched wires that would impede micro amp current to the valve, flue pipe, baffles, gas pressure, leak in the tank dripping all over the pilot....it very well could have been the gas valve but I wouldn't think so. 

A few little different things on the other types of set ups.

I wouldn't take the HO words to much. If it just started up it will not burn great until hot again and stops condensing. They could have been their the one time it decided not to work. The thermocouple does goes out for the count.


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## grandpa (Jul 13, 2008)

An 8 year old State probably has the left-threaded Thermocouple, which is not replaceable any more. They will probably give you a new gas valve and burner assembly. Contact State.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

grandpa said:


> An 8 year old State probably has the left-threaded Thermocouple, which is not replaceable any more. They will probably give you a new gas valve and burner assembly. Contact State.


You CAN still get left hand threaded thermocouples. I get them for American's all the time, without the burner or gas valve.


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

Indie. I see your point. Why spend time and charge the customer on a unit that may be dead in a few weeks or even days. I also push replacement. I have stated in the past. I see no real point in attempting to service Residential water heaters that are over 5 years old. Why should I take money from the customer. When they use could that to put towards a new one


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

affordabledrain said:


> Indie. I see your point. Why spend time and charge the customer on a unit that may be dead in a few weeks or even days. I also push replacement. I have stated in the past. I see no real point in attempting to service Residential water heaters that are over 5 years old. Why should I take money from the customer. When they could that to put towards a new one


I have replaced ignition wires for way less than a new heater. There are many other jibs that can be done way cheaper too. Not likely with this particular job though. I will do the little things until the heater leaks or a gas valve goes out.


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

affordabledrain said:


> Indie. I see your point. Why spend time and charge the customer on a unit that may be dead in a few weeks or even days. I also push replacement. I have stated in the past.* I see no real point in attempting to service Residential water heaters that are over 5 years old.* *Why should I take money from the customer.* When they could that to put towards a new one


That's ridiculous thinking, most res. water heaters have 6 yr. matching tank and parts warranty, you're doing your customer a disservice by not fixing it if the parts are free.

It sounds like you are taking money from your customer by selling them a heater they don't need when there's can be repaired for a fraction of a new one. A 6 - 10 yr. old water heater still has alot of potential life


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Don't forget the none unit possibilities,,,, Confined spaces (lack of combustion air via physical area changes), other factors possibly causing a drafting and pressure issues.

I have seen ultra tight construction cause a W.H not to vent


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Gettinit said:


> I have replaced ignition wires for way less than a new heater. There are many other jibs that can be done way cheaper too. Not likely with this particular job though. I will do the little things until the heater leaks or a gas valve goes out.





Titletownplumbr said:


> That's ridiculous thinking, most res. water heaters have 6 yr. matching tank and parts warranty, you're doing your customer a disservice by not fixing it if the parts are free.
> 
> It sounds like you are taking money from your customer by selling them a heater they don't need when there's can be repaired for a fraction of a new one. A 6 - 10 yr. old water heater still has alot of potential life


What kind of cost are your customers enduring for those simple, easy repairs? How many parts do you carry to be able to offer that level of service. 

Don't get all worked up on those questions either, they are not meant for offense. Truly curious where others draw the line.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Indie said:


> What kind of cost are your customers enduring for those simple, easy repairs? How many parts do you carry to be able to offer that level of service.
> 
> Don't get all worked up on those questions either, they are not meant for offense. Truly curious where others draw the line.


None taken. 

I carry a a couple upper/lower thermostats and 4 4500 watt elements. I carry a small variety of thermocouples, thermopiles and the voyager style hot surface ignitors. Odd balls get ordered or picked up at a supply house unless I frequently service them. I have a huge inventory of Bradford White parts. I am one of their service providers. I go to the local HVAC stores for some controllers/ignition systems. You cannot carry/store everything. Parts are marked up 40%. Many repairs take less than an hour. An element/thermostat change takes 5 minutes and 10 to diagnose...on avg. I have old magnets from left and right hand gas valves to test thermocouples. Even without BW inventory I would still consider the repairs. 

So, on avg. one hour+trip+parts= $ Remember, not everybody has a cheap 40 or 50 gallon heater that can be walked in and out for replacement. If it will cost more than 50% of the heater I think it is in their best interest to replace it, normally. I give the customer the choice/prices to compare and get it done. 

Nothing meant to offend from here as well.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

I don't see any injustice to putting in 100-200 bucks into a 6-8 year old heater as long as there are no signs of rust and leaks. 

I would have told the customer "I can attempt to repair this Water Heater, should cost around ***.XX or a can get you a new Water Heater, it will cost ***.XX."

Give them your advice, and let the customer decide.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Before recommending repairs, I always check the anode rod and burner chamber for signs of internal corrosion. I'm not changing parts on a tank that is compromised.


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

Titletownplumbr said:


> That's ridiculous thinking, most res. water heaters have 6 yr. matching tank and parts warranty, you're doing your customer a disservice by not fixing it if the parts are free.
> 
> It sounds like you are taking money from your customer by selling them a heater they don't need when there's can be repaired for a fraction of a new one. A 6 - 10 yr. old water heater still has alot of potential life



I know for a fact my customer is not going to wait for the parts to come in for the warranty. I see it differently. Doing them a very very bad disservice. *Not *recommending a replacement. Indies original post stated that the unit was 5-7 years old. Why put that much into something that is soon void of warranty or is all ready with out warranty. Water heaters are now disposable. why put the effort into them. Some only have three years warranty. I stand by they way I do things. Plus this is Indiana. unless you live and work here. You will not understand it


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Gettinit said:


> None taken.
> 
> I carry a a couple upper/lower thermostats and 4 4500 watt elements. I carry a small variety of thermocouples, thermopiles and the voyager style hot surface ignitors. Odd balls get ordered or picked up at a supply house unless I frequently service them. I have a huge inventory of Bradford White parts. I am one of their service providers. I go to the local HVAC stores for some controllers/ignition systems. You cannot carry/store everything. Parts are marked up 40%. Many repairs take less than an hour. An element/thermostat change takes 5 minutes and 10 to diagnose...on avg. I have old magnets from left and right hand gas valves to test thermocouples. Even without BW inventory I would still consider the repairs.
> 
> ...



Not that your numbers are not known, but I would hazard a guess to say a repair is around $150.00, and I'm sure its a solid repair that holds for many years. This is based on you having the parts and supply houses within a reasonable distance to travel for needed parts. 

If you compared that to what I suspect is a 1,000 or more price for a new water heater in your area I can see how the repair is more viable. 



Now, if you factor in my closest State supply house is at least a 45 minute drive one way, and I don't stock all those parts, plus a new gas water heater is more like 800.00 installed here, it should make more sense as to why I lean towards replacement on a out of warranty heater. 

You can see where a repair is going to cost a couple hundred at a minimum.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Will said:


> I don't see any injustice to putting in 100-200 bucks into a 6-8 year old heater as long as there are no signs of rust and leaks.
> 
> I would have told the customer "I can attempt to repair this Water Heater, should cost around ***.XX or a can get you a new Water Heater, it will cost ***.XX."
> 
> Give them your advice, and let the customer decide.



That is what I did, and he decided on a new install. :yes:


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Indie said:


> Not that your numbers are not known, but I would hazard a guess to say a repair is around $150.00, and I'm sure its a solid repair that holds for many years. This is based on you having the parts and supply houses within a reasonable distance to travel for needed parts.
> 
> If you compared that to what I suspect is a 1,000 or more price for a new water heater in your area I can see how the repair is more viable.
> 
> ...


You are a capable pro, no doubt, so if it makes sense in your situation, I say do it. The supply houses are pretty spread out here as well but not that bad. I can only tell it like it is with me and my area. I don't think $150 for a repair is all that much even for a $800 replacement at 5-7 years old but that is just my opinion.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

I vote replacement.

With my luck, I'd drive around to find & get all the parts, & next week the heater would leak, & the customer would want a refund, & think somehow I should of known.

We have a company here, that all they do is service water heaters, warranty or not. If I got a customer that has any problem with a water heater under warranty, other than leaking, I call them with model#, & serial#, & they have the parts when they come, & handle all the warranty info, needed for manufacturer. Heck, my supply house don't even stock a gas valve for the heaters they sell, cuz they just send out this co, if there is an issue. I carry a thermo coupler, burner assemly, & gas valve for the standard 40 gal heater, but thats it.

Now I can't even remember but 2 times having to use this co, on a water heater I installed, for warranty issue. I just can't see any profit, or benefit for myself, to service water heaters. Way too many different kinds of heaters, & parts. And I get customers & friends & neighbors all the time that have these heaters installed from box stores, & when they call me to tell me their heater is out, I refer those cheap a$$es to this co too. I don't want to deal with it.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

I rarely service a standard gas or electric residential heater. If it's powervent we will try to repair. Standard gas or electric I can usually swap for around $700 so a repair is not usually a good option!


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Gettinit said:


> You are a capable pro, no doubt, so if it makes sense in your situation, I say do it. The supply houses are pretty spread out here as well but not that bad. I can only tell it like it is with me and my area. I don't think $150 for a repair is all that much even for a $800 replacement at 5-7 years old but that is just my opinion.



If I had the parts in stock I would not disagree. It is surprising that you carry so many parts, and don't have much higher rates to cover all that extra overhead. But that is a different topic altogether.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Indie said:


> If I had the parts in stock I would not disagree. It is surprising that you carry so many parts, and don't have much higher rates to cover all that extra overhead. But that is a different topic altogether.


I try to get manufacturer, model, serial over the phone and take parts with me.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

I keep a universal thermocouple, a handfull of elements, a t&p, and an upper and lower thermostat on the truck and if that won't fix it I recomend replacement. I do clean alot of combustion air intakes but that is usually and hour or less!


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Is the tank leaking?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

State Water Heaters are only a different sticker away from being the junk they sell at Blowes.... :yes:


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Redwood said:


> State Water Heaters are only a different sticker away from being the junk they sell at Blowes.... :yes:


If they are still whirlpools they are American...nothing is that bad...:laughing:


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Is the tank leaking?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Gettinit said:


> If they are still whirlpools they are American...nothing is that bad...:laughing:


What exactly is the difference between a Whirlpool, American, State, Reliance, GSW, John Wood or, AO Smith water heaters?

http://www.aosmith.com/OperatingUnits/Detail.aspx?id=138

A sticker!


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

If I had confirmed that the safeties and limits had been checked and sent power too the gas valve! Spark ignition proves the flame! Rectification or a flame rod proves fire!


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Redwood said:


> What exactly is the difference between a Whirlpool, American, State, Reliance, GSW, John Wood or, AO Smith water heaters?
> 
> http://www.aosmith.com/OperatingUnits/Detail.aspx?id=138
> 
> A sticker!


Drain valves.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

I didnt have time to read through this thread, but state water heaters has released an AP for smart phones and tablets. It is basically a warranty check ap. Pretty cool though. Headed to a call and going to use it.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Gettinit said:


> You CAN still get left hand threaded thermocouples. I get them for American's all the time, without the burner or gas valve.


I've tried to get them...not available in DFW any more. You can order in a conversion kit, though.

Water heater part support is pretty regional. It all has to do with what's predominantly being installed in your area as to how good the part support is.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

I have the old one in the garage for some experimenting and validation. Can't seem to get to it. :laughing:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I will only warranty parts on stuff that I installed...

I refuse to do cold call warranty work on electirc water heaters or gas for a stranger........

if someone expects me to take back a thermostat or drive across town to get them a state, or whirlpool bradford white part and then do the paperwork to get rufund for the replacement part for one I used....
it just aint gonna happen in this life.... :no: 

If they want hot water tonight , then that can be arranged,, I usually tell them to take the parts 30 miles across town and you can get a refund in 4 weeks from the manufacturer 


I just fooled with a State heater yesterday...

Installed a new burner assembly made by smith
and is the same as state..... to clean that disk under the heater 
properly is almost impossible, but I have my ways of correcting 
that defect on this brand...:yes::yes: This usually involves a claw hammer 
and chisel and some elbow grease 



this unit was a 2004 andout of warranty so the total cost for the
 burner assembly and cleaning out the dirt was 
a low, low $175.00... If I had to change the gas valve it was gonna be $300...


I would rather just change out this dog 
and install a good Rheem product


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Redwood said:


> What exactly is the difference between a Whirlpool, American, State, Reliance, GSW, John Wood or, AO Smith water heaters?
> 
> http://www.aosmith.com/OperatingUnits/Detail.aspx?id=138
> 
> A sticker!


Never knew ao smith was in the mix with State. I dislike State because ferguson sells them and I dislike ferguson! Good info though!

I guess it will be Rheem fromnow on!


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## Fullmetal Frank (Jul 11, 2012)

deerslayer said:


> Never knew ao smith was in the mix with State. I dislike State because ferguson sells them and I dislike ferguson! Good info though!
> 
> I guess it will be Rheem fromnow on!


Ao smith is to state what dewalt is to black'n'decker.


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## OldPlumber (Aug 4, 2008)

After reading all of these posts we must have some of the hardest water on the planet ! Somebody was talking about a 6 or 7yr old w/h having plenty of life .. Wow ! In the Phoenix area that's on it's last legs.

I tell my customers that the average life on an electric w/h is 8yrs .. gas is 9 to 10yrs. There is an exception for State w/h's ..... you can deduct 3-4yrs off of the above averages. :thumbdown:

I hate State w/h's more than Whirlpool .. and that's saying something. I think it's got to be at least 14yrs since I put one in. I stopped buying them back then when they changed their warranty procedures and wanted you to jump through hoops to get approval. I can't think of any supply houses that even carry them here anymore.


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