# Figure this this one out. Cpvc hot cross over.



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Have cold water crossing over into the hot side.

I already shut off all of the stops in the house including the laundry and water heayer inlet valve. I still get full flow out of the hot side. There are 5 delta moniter shower valves but I don't think it can be crossing thru those valves due to the check valves inside the cartridges. Even if there was a bad check, I wouldn't be getting 10gpm or more flowing thru a bad check.

Conclusion: there is an actual hard piped crossover.

The problem: how in the world am I ever going to find it? 5 bath 2 story home with the first floor roughed in under slab on grade.

Can you say "screwed"?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

High-tech Protech. Thermal imaging ?


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

How old is the house?


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## Eric (Jan 10, 2011)

anti sweat valve on a toilet?


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Protech said:


> Have cold water crossing over into the hot side.
> 
> I already shut off all of the stops in the house including the laundry and water heayer inlet valve. <snip>
> 
> ...


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Some new clothes dryers now have a water connection to them. A garden hose wye is supplied with the dryer. I think they are steam or something.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

And I learned not to assume anything. Turn off those tub shower faucets. Add valves if they are not there.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Home is roughly 5years old.

No anti-sweat valves in florida.

I don't think it can be backfeeding from a shower valve just because the volume is far beyond what could flow thru those tiny ports in the valves. I suppose I could turn them all on full blast without the shower head on just to be sure.

It's crossed over with enough volume that I can crack the t/p open with the heater inlet valve turned off and it runs full bore as if the inlet valve was wide open. The super high flow makes me think the crossover is actually hard piped in.........maybe even in 3/4". Its that much flow.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

You have to ask yourself though what has changed? You have to assume that everything was ok until something happed so a hard piped cross over does not seem logical. I would be looking pretty hard at the T/S valves


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

When you say you still have full flow hot at fixtures I am assuming you have cold water, correct?


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

A hard piped crossover that didnt cause problems for 5 years is highly unlikely.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

This is a vacation home near Disney. The home sits vacant for long periods of time. The owner lives in Dubai. It's very possible that this has been going on since day one and no one has said anything.

This home was constructed during the construction boom in this area. The homes in this neighborhood where built super fast and cheap. Usually by any warm bodies that the contractor could get to show up. Construction errors are common in this neck of the woods.



Pipe Rat said:


> A hard piped crossover that didnt cause problems for 5 years is highly unlikely.


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## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

I might be missing something but are the shutoff valves working.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Can you electronically trace to the manifolds? Plastic will be difficult to locate.I would look first at the manifold behind the water heater. Disconnect all manifold lines and then I would connect a hose to the backflow and connect each individual manifold lines to a hose and see which one feeds the hot line behind the heater. Reconnect the manifold lines with exception to the cross connected line and discover what does not have water


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

I notice you said valve on water heater, is there only one heater? Another heater possibly? Is there maybe an unfinished bathroom with the rough in plug still in the tub valve? Another spot for washer and dryer that the plumbers forgot to uncross after they had the heater/s hooked up?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Can you electronically trace to the manifolds? Plastic will be difficult to locate.I would look first at the manifold behind the water heater. Disconnect all manifold lines and then I would connect a hose to the backflow and connect each individual manifold lines to a hose and see which one feeds the hot line behind the heater. Reconnect the manifold lines with exception to the cross connected line and discover what does not have water


There are no manifolds. Its trunk and branch.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Any back-to-back shower valves? If so, I'd pull the trim and get a light/mirror or a seesnake micro in there and look for the work of a confused helper. With 4 connections in a small space, I could see something happening there.








Paul


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Outdoor shower? 

Recirc. line brought off of the cold system and not the hot? 





Paul


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## Eric (Jan 10, 2011)

What is it you were called for? A new water heater? It is possible the ballvalve on the cold inlet to the water heater is broken and not closing.


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

heater pipes crossed ?


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Go Lo tech use a stethoscope to determine if you shower bodies are the problem 

If its a hard pipe crossover it might be on back to back fixture or your effed sorry

Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone


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## smudge (Jan 19, 2010)

How bout a mixing or tempering valve on a jetted tub, could be hidden under the skirt of tub or look for access in a closet.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Protech said:


> Home is roughly 5years old.
> 
> No anti-sweat valves in florida.
> 
> ...


 This is going to sound very stupid, but is there a circ system involved?

I've been dealing with a similar situation in Belltown that finally, through a process of elimination, identified a burned out bronze Grundfoss pump, sans internal check valves, and a sticking 1/2" spring check as the culprits.

In the name of satisfying the GC, I ate the cost of the pump/spring check replacement


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## express (Nov 22, 2008)

smudge said:


> How bout a mixing or tempering valve on a jetted tub, could be hidden under the skirt of tub or look for access in a closet.


some tubs also have an electric valve under the skirt


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Protech said:
> 
> 
> > Have cold water crossing over into the hot side.
> ...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

rocksteady said:


> Outdoor shower?
> 
> Recirc. line brought off of the cold system and not the hot?
> 
> ...


No recirc system. no outside shower.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Washing machine is shut off at washer box valves. Individual ball valves.



Redwood said:


> PLUMBER_BILL said:
> 
> 
> > Those Symmons washing machine valves can crossover big time!
> ...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

smudge said:


> How bout a mixing or tempering valve on a jetted tub, could be hidden under the skirt of tub or look for access in a closet.


Now that IS possible! I'll hafta go back and check for that.

Good call.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Nope, tested for that.




Bayside500 said:


> heater pipes crossed ?


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Emerad Isle or Windsor Hills area?

Check for a summer kitchen rough that are usually in block walls so they looped the hot/cold. Or if it was a model there could have been other options looped in a nonobvious place. Maybe even a second WH loop. When I worked new con I got to find dozens of crossed lines on warranty calls. Fun stuff. Like solving a MENSA puzzle.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Protech said:


> Now that IS possible! I'll hafta go back and check for that.
> 
> Good call.


Not very likely on s 5 year old house. They did not require it back then.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Used to find lots of crossed lines where the 3/4 lines went vertical through wall to second floor. Usually at WH or washer box.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

transcribing this posting on behalf of TheMaster:

_"Turn the water meter off at the street. Turn the stop valve off on the cold side of the water heater. Connect a water hose to the drain valve of the water heater and turn it on. You need to get your water source from some place else or have the main stop valve to the house turned off outside with a valve on the meter side.

The object is to pressurize the system and then make hot water flow from the cold side. The location it get hot the quickest has the cross connection close by. Its trial and error....you get the idea. If it takes a long time to get hot water then you know your farther away from the cross over. 

Thats a fake email addy by the way. Goodluck to you protech_?

Thanks for the tip homey :thumbsup:


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Keep in mind some water heaters have those plastic heat traps on the cold water inlet. It's like a check valve. May not let the water flow freely. You may have to remove that little disc.


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## LEAD INGOT (Jul 15, 2009)

Is there a softner? If it is a vacation home, with light use, the venturi in the head could be clogged causing a cross over. I've seen that happen in some systems. Throw it in bypass, if it rights itself then you have it.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

LEAD INGOT said:


> Is there a softner? If it is a vacation home, with light use, the venturi in the head could be clogged causing a cross over. I've seen that happen in some systems. Throw it in bypass, if it rights itself then you have it.


I love the sig LI, I have been the victim of a one man layoff while a job was still ramping up, for fighting for what I believe in.

To OP, sorry for the drift wood...

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Plumb Bob (Mar 9, 2011)

I would replace those delta tub/shower cartridges. That would be my first bet!


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## smudge (Jan 19, 2010)

Protech , Did you ever find the problem?


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I used to have a couple guys who would do this to me from time to time...sometimes we had to chop the floor near the heater and usually someone would remember how we ran it and could flip them in a floor going thru a closet. Never fun. I know you know this but when it happened to us one bath would be reversed or we'd notice a hose bib hot.
1. make sure cold is feeding water heater on the proper side 
2. verify house being fed in one location only
3. do above post or mix some compressed air in and get to 1st location


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## timplmbr (Mar 16, 2011)

what about incorrectly installed recirc pump, i had on that did that and it was the recirc?????


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## mssp (Dec 15, 2009)

504Plumber said:


> I notice you said valve on water heater, is there only one heater? Another heater possibly? Is there maybe an unfinished bathroom with the rough in plug still in the tub valve? Another spot for washer and dryer that the plumbers forgot to uncross after they had the heater/s hooked up?


 This is what I was thinking. Went to a house about 2 yrs ago and changed a water heater. HO called a few days later and said it was not working corectly. Sent ot BW rep he claimed it was working jsut fine. Went out and inspected the entire house. low and behold there was a second heater on the upper level that thermo was bad on. House was piped to draw off the closer heater totally wrong in my book


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