# I'mYourDamnTourGuide about your code.



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

*I'mYourDamnTourGuide you say you have your own code, is there no code book, reason I ask after looking at your picture album alot of things I see in them, is wild, lets of santee's, med turn 90 here and there, most what I see would never be allowed here. I guess I'm lost in understanding how your code is set up. I see you use cpvc, do you like cpvc? You must since thats what I see.

I don't know, I'd hate to clean the lines with so many san-tees, fear cable could go the wrong way and hit a fixture or two.



*


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## I'mYourTourGuide (Jun 23, 2008)

Kentucky has their ownw plumbing code.

They have trap to vent distances, MDL on vents and drain, minimum house sewer/drain requirements and a minimum of 1, 3" vent through roof.

Vent through roof can be off-set at and angle of 45 degrees and no more (i.e. 90 degrees because 90 would be a flat vent which is not permissible.

Inspectors here really look for the base of the vertical stack to be washed.

CPVC is the cheaper way to go for homeowners.

I installed that for a guy that was building a new house and wanted the cheaper material, but good stuff. . .like not dirt cheap, but cheapER. .

CPVC doesn't sweat, but it expands and contrasts still.

Copper sweats and takes a lot longer to pipe in.

Rotted stem walls are baddddddddd.


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

*Here it is:*

http://ohbc.ky.gov/NR/rdonlyres/5CB20FD7-46DA-47DC-B786-39166A68CD9F/0/KENTUCKYplb2007.pdf

*I have a friend from other forums that is a plumber in KY, he showed me this.*
*Still working on getting him to join here.*


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Here it is, it I did not see it with my own eyes, I would have never believed it.

*Section 9. Change of Direction. A change in direction of a sewer shall be
made with long curves, forty-five (45) degree wyes, half wyes, quarter, sixth,
eighth or sixteenth bends or sanitary tees installed on their back or on their sides at an angle of not more than forty-five (45) degrees.*


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

WOW!

At least he is following code.

But that code stinks.


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

*It is our duty to teach that poor boy some good plumbing folks.*

*Just kiddin' TourGuide...welcome to the forum.*


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

I'mYourTourGuide said:


> Kentucky has their ownw plumbing code.
> 
> They have trap to vent distances, MDL on vents and drain, minimum house sewer/drain requirements and a minimum of 1, 3" vent through roof.
> 
> ...


*CPVC DOES sweat, as does PEX...I know of several plumbers that pitched that as a feature to install it and were met with callbacks as soon as the muggy summer months came along.*
*Observe a plastic coke bottle in the summer.*
*Also, CPVC cuts noise, but not by much...CPVC cannot handle frost, it'll burst, only PEX can.*
*Given a choice between the two, I prefer CVPC only for the reason that I don't like the current types of fittings/connections for PEX.*
*Given the choice overall...I'd only use copper, but I'd spend alotta time at home if I bid everything copper only.*
*We have local code authorities to thank for that, as soon as something cheap is approved, your all but obligated to use it or lose your shirt.*


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

GrumpyPlumber said:


> * I don't like the current types of fittings/connections for PEX.*


Uponor APR or Reahau Everlock!


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> *or sanitary tees installed on their back*




/end post


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Keep in mind, Oregon does allow a santee on it's back but only in venting, but never drainage.


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## I'mYourTourGuide (Jun 23, 2008)

I know my code pretty well 

YOu can't lay a sanitary tee on its side in a branch, I mean it's common sense, it will clog eventually. . .With a San. Tee on a 45 and a street 45, it makes a 90 that "dumps" down into the drain.


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## I'mYourTourGuide (Jun 23, 2008)

GrumpyPlumber said:


> *Observe a plastic coke bottle in the summer.*
> quote]
> 
> A plastic Coke bottle is like 1/64 of an inch thick.
> ...


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## A Good Plumber (Jun 18, 2008)

_"Keep in mind, Oregon does allow a santee on it's back but only in venting, but never drainage."_

Ron, I just read your Oregon Code and it's not different than the UPC in regards to tee's on their back.

Section 905.3 say's in the last sentence:

Vents less than six(6) inches(152mm) above the flood-level rim of the fixture shall be installed with approved* drainage* fittings, material, and grade to the drain.

It may be accepted by the inspector, but it's not code approved.


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## A Good Plumber (Jun 18, 2008)

In my area allthough we are under the UPC, we have some cities that allow tee's on their back for vents. Most Plumbers in this area just follow the most stringent accepted practice.


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## threaderman (Jun 17, 2008)

The only time a san-tee is legal on its back is for a dry vent in IPC,works for me.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Code does not say it, but long time ago an inspector in Springfield sent a letter to the Chief State Plumbing Inspector asking if there was anything wrong with sitting a santee on it's back, horizontal drainage to vertical venting, he sent a letter in reply, that it was perfectly acceptable to allow this, and there would be no reason for it to effect the operations of the drains. So it has been allowed ever since.


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

Wow.

So one guy decided the code wasn't necessary so everyone ignores it instead of changing the code? Or am I missing something?


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I guess, crazy as it may seem, that is the only non code rule that was allowed.


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## DMG76 (Jun 18, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> *I don't know, I'd hate to clean the lines with so many san-tees, fear cable could go the wrong way and hit a fixture or two.*


 
AMEN :thumbsup:


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## I'mYourTourGuide (Jun 23, 2008)

A good plumbing system, on grade with properly square cut sawn pipes, with hangers every 4' (if above ground), will NOT clog unless a kid flushes something down the toilet, or shoves something down the lav.

And it only makes more sense (and is law) to use sanitary tees for individual connection of fixture to main. The code states that each fixture is "individually connected to the main", in one of my photos, we had to stack a urinal drain and a lav drain because we didn't have enough room in the chase for another 4"x2" san tee but the inspector didn't mind it believe it or not.

We individually vent every fixture here also.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

IPC and the old BOCA code always let you use a san tee on its back as long as the outlet is vertical and does not recieve waste. Comes in real handy when space is an issue.


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## Mike Jessome (Aug 7, 2008)

A few things in my local code that may be different then others.

#1 As long as the toilet is the most far down stream everything in that bathroom group is vented by one vent mostly a wet vent from the lav
#2 ABS is allowed underground
#3 We run pex waterlines underground
#4 we run pex 3/4 heating mains underground
#5 sanitary tees can be used upside down and horizontal only in venting never drainage 


I'm from Nova Scotia Canada so if you have any questions on plumbing code or things we do in Canada just ask


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Kentucky State Plumbing Codes  There are codes in the codebook that I don't agree with, but as a whole I feel it offers the public

one of the better plumbing systems built due to its non-fouling/error-free design to which it is designed to handle the maximum DFU load at any given time.



Kentucky follows the National Plumbing Code, follows real close to New York and in relation to all 50 states...


Kentucky and New York, and I believe New Jersey is well known to have the strictest plumbing codes across the land.


As Zeek mentioned, every drain must have a vent in Kentucky, no exceptions.


A tee can be laid over at no more than 45 degrees and then rolled out to catch whatever you're trying to get to.


I looked at his pictures trying to figure out why a few caught the indifference, and even though I wouldn't exactly run the piping the same exact way, it's definitely professional and up to code in my state, would pass with flying colors.


When I plumb, I use a ton of wye's instead of tees. Like a combo Tee-Wye.


We're forced to use crosses that are not wye's because of the S trap config but rules are rules. 


Lot of guys from other states come here to take the test and don't pass it. There's a reason and it's nothing you'll find inside the codebook, they make you think outside of it, on purpose. 

Anyone can study a book...they want you to know the logic behind the codes that are never going to be written.


For example,


When is the only time you can install a non-pressure balanced tub/shower valve in new construction?


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Read Chicago's code sometime, especially the specifics for buildings over three stories, some of it is a real PITA.


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## I'mYourTourGuide (Jun 23, 2008)

Everything but a combination hub & floor drain system and a manufactured floor drain system shall have an individual vent. . . AND a basement floor drain if it dumps into the main no more than 25' from the stack.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

We don't use san tees on its back here in north Florida either. Only in venting. Mobile home or " trailer plumbing" are the only ones who seem to get away with it. We also are required to use long sweeps on the base of stacks and must be used when direction of flow is from vertical to horizontal and horizontal to horizontal. Also we are not required to individually vent everything and a 3" vtr is no longer required but must have a least one 2" vtr. Each state seems to have its own codes.


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## pzmember (Sep 20, 2008)

well here we went from national standard to upc. and the best thing that happened with the change was the discontinuation of tees on thier back. in my opinion its a smoother transition, and way easier to get a cable through. our code requires long turn 90 horizontal to horizontal, and horizontal to vertical, i like longer radius fittings and use them even where i am not required. thinking of the next guy w/ the cable. when that friday at 5:00 cable call takes 5 mins you know hes happy i used long radius fittings. and by the way how are you guys cutting your pvc, i use a chop saw for square ends every time and then bevel the ends on the side of the blade. how about you guys.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

Most companys I worked for in the past figure if it lasts a year, then to heck with how long it lasts after that. I myself on the other hand am a perfectionist. I hate to admit it sometimes but I do spend a lot of time making sure things are straight and plumb and done correctly. 
I am by no means a bragger but I can cut pvc with a hack saw like it came from the factory. My 21 year old son who has been working with me for some time now, or was ( again the economy ) and he can't seem to cut straight no matter how many times he watches me do it. Chop saws are great but a lot of slabs we rough in have no electricity and most of the times no water when we get there. Taking a generator just to cut pipe would for me be rediculous. The only time I have used a chop saw was on a huge apartment complex that I worked on with a company before I went into business for myself. We pre-fabbed a lot of the drain work in the shop as the next apartment unit was being prepared for the plumber. Worked great for us and it did the job quick. 
I am confident on my cuts with just a hack saw or sawzall and so far have had no stoppage problems on any of our work that I am aware of.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Do you ever run service? Cast iron will scale up and cause clogs even in straight sections of pipe. Even PVC will clog when it gets built up with grease. San-tees on there back or sides are terrible practice, code or not. It makes it very difficult to snake or jet the lines.



I'mYourTourGuide said:


> A good plumbing system, on grade with properly square cut sawn pipes, with hangers every 4' (if above ground), will NOT clog unless a kid flushes something down the toilet, or shoves something down the lav.
> 
> And it only makes more sense (and is law) to use sanitary tees for individual connection of fixture to main. The code states that each fixture is "individually connected to the main", in one of my photos, we had to stack a urinal drain and a lav drain because we didn't have enough room in the chase for another 4"x2" san tee but the inspector didn't mind it believe it or not.
> 
> We individually vent every fixture here also.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm with you Protech, Going backwards on santees give me the red ass.... Not too mention it turns a one hour call into a couple of hours when I have to figure out the best place to run the sewer to avoid the tees. Sometimes you cant and just have to keep hammering on it until you clear the drain.


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## brad7596 (Nov 1, 2008)

wow i like how you blokes use pvc pressure pipes for hot water never seen that here i never use pvc for water supply it requires 24hrs to set and ive found it continually bursts hot water would make it expand and contract like crazy even if you put in expansion legs and loops different thats for sure
:whistling2:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

We don't use pvc for that...
PVC for pressure would only be cold outside the foundation.
CPVC is what would be used...
Big difference!


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Here it is, it I did not see it with my own eyes, I would have never believed it.
> 
> *Section 9. Change of Direction. A change in direction of a sewer shall be
> made with long curves, forty-five (45) degree wyes, half wyes, quarter, sixth,
> eighth or sixteenth bends or sanitary tees installed on their back or on their sides at an angle of not more than forty-five (45) degrees.*


What the hell

No way allowed here!
No sanitary tee shall be laid on an angle exceeding 22.5 degrees from horizontal. The reason is there is no direction of flow. Also if the inspector is smart enough to catch it, we are not supposed to use anything sharper than a 45 for sewer lines. Any 90 degree turns require a clean out at the 90, so you use a y, or a TY with a clean out assembly. Reason is if it needs to be snaked they claim the snake wont want to follow a 90.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

We can use 90s on sewers as long as they are sweeps, but the inspectors like it when you double 45. San tees can only go horizontal to vertical. No horizontal to horizontal or vertical to horizontal.


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## dasplum (Dec 12, 2008)

I'm looking for any KY plumber that can give me tips to prep for masters....thx


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I use heat proof grease, not KY:whistling2:


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Florida is the same way ron. tee on the back only for venting, no 3" vent required in residential though. As long as there is one 2" vent continuious from the slab your good. Also, no dry venting allowed either. Thank god for low consumption toilets. I think we are allowed unlimited distances for our toilet vents now. Ill have to check on that.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

You can dry vent in Fl. If using an unwashed dry vent you just have to have it rolled up at 45 deg or more from the waste line to keep it out of the flow channel. I haven't heard of any new code allowing unlimited vent distances. 

Sadly, you are correct about not needing a main vent sized the same as the building drain. That was the dumbest change ever made if you ask me. I see whole houses done with just one 2" vent and the rest is studors. I'm not totally against studors but seeing a whole house done with them sickens me(and the residents from sewer gas).



gonoles06 said:


> Florida is the same way ron. tee on the back only for venting, no 3" vent required in residential though. As long as there is one 2" vent continuious from the slab your good. Also, no dry venting allowed either. Thank god for low consumption toilets. I think we are allowed unlimited distances for our toilet vents now. Ill have to check on that.


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## I'mYourTourGuide (Jun 23, 2008)

Your total area of vents through the roof HAVE to equal the building drain. . . If you got a 6" building drain, doesn't mean you have a 6" MAIN VENT, unless there's like a 6" floor drain located in the building somewhere.


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## plumber1a (Jan 3, 2009)

Under the California Plumbing Code or UPC you can't use a double santee for picking up back to back fixtures, they make a fitting in ABS called a double fixture fitting, it has a baffle so a snake cable wont go straight through to the other fixture, another way is to wet vent the fixture following the wet vent requirements, double santees are no No's, It's very frustrating trying to clear a basin stoppage only to have your cable come up in the basin behind. Santees must always be used vertically on drainage systems and long sweep 90s are required going vertical to horizontal or horizontal to horizontal, horizontal to vertical can use a santee. Santees can be used anywhere in the vent system, inverted as necessary. Clean outs are required for every 135 degrees in direction change for horizontal applications, end of line in excess of 5 feet from the main and are always required on sinks and urinals. Somehow it all makes since to me and many of the other states have very weird codes. Guess if I look very deep into them I might understand, but hopefully studder or AMV will never take place in my plumbing career.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

You could make a double combo by putting two street 45s in a double wye and that should work quite well. That should keep the service plumber from tearing up the other sinks P-trap with the ol' K-60.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Protech said:


> You could make a double combo by putting two street 45s in a double wye and that should work quite well. That should keep the service plumber from tearing up the other sinks P-trap with the ol' K-60.


That doesn't fly in IL due to exceeding the hydraulic gradient.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

huh? hydraulic gradiant? What is that?



ILPlumber said:


> That doesn't fly in IL due to exceeding the hydraulic gradient.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

The point where the waste enters the vents stack would be too low. They don't count the 45 as the point A but rather the inet of the wye. This is IL code. A san tee is shown that exceeds the hydraulic gradient. See below:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

We don't have anything like that in our book. What's the reason for this piece of code? You got me curious now.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

IIRC if the tee inlet is too low the flowing drain would block off the vent.

Same reason there are trap to vent distances. They are based on the hydraulic gradient.


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## satony (Jul 5, 2009)

Protech said:


> You could make a double combo by putting two street 45s in a double wye and that should work quite well. That should keep the service plumber from tearing up the other sinks P-trap with the ol' K-60.


you could not use TY combos, it would cause P-trap to be sucked out.


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## M5Plumb (Oct 2, 2008)

Yup....Thanks Ron...



Ron The Plumber said:


> Keep in mind, Oregon does allow a santee on it's back but only in venting, but never drainage.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

o really? 





 


satony said:


> you could not use TY combos, it would cause P-trap to be sucked out.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I call shennanigans. That camera panned away into the darkness 3 times. 

What was going on during this time. Trap refill?:laughing:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Would it really matter if I did it again without any break in the video?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> Would it really matter if I did it again without any break in the video?


Quit making trick video's protech.....:laughing: We on to you man...give it up:laughing:. I bet you really wasn't even on a roof in the solar video either......just like they made the video of the first man on the moon in a studio....nobody ever really went to the moon:laughing: Its all one big trick.:jester:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

The reason the cam was moved is because my girl was holding it and she kept freaking out thinking that the cam was getting wet.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

My remarks were TOTALLY made in jest. I will make that more clear in the future:yes:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> My remarks were TOTALLY made in jest. I will make that more clear in the future:yes:


 I know that man! I was kidding with you too!:thumbsup:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Correct me if Im wrong..the hydraulic gradient limit is to insure a free flow of air on the drainage side of the trap so no changes in pressure could affect the seal which is some of the basic principles of venting.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

OK. Lets put our thinking caps on. Where does hydraulic gradient come into play here? Why or why not? How?


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

The 3" is large enough that there will always be air movment from the laterals(if not backpitched) because systems arent designed to run full.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

So if I understand correctly, if the pipe is large enough, hydraulic gradient doesn't matter right?


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Correct. The idea of a continuous waste vent system is a model that works--the exception with the 3" would not be code in some areas although everyone knows there would be no problems however, if the lateral filled then there is no safety for the trap you displayed and under enough pressure change the trap could have a problem


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

So let me ask you this. If we were to remove that santee and install say a 3" double combo there and dump a lav in each side then where would that put us?

BTW, happy 50Kth post every body!


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

If there is no vent out the top of the santee( I mean double combo) the same place. Dump enough water to close off the throat of the tee and negative pressure is formed to suck the trap or push one. If the amount of flow and the level in the laterals allows free air flow , no chance of pressure change. But, the design of a plumbing system is to be fool proof. The combined waste and vent models have vents on either end and oversized lateral for this very purpose.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I dont know why Fla. allows combos for horizontal to vertical down ( as displayed earlier) except they must have considered the ease of rodding a better trade off than the remote chance of trap seal failure.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

OK, so now that we have all established that if the pipes are large enough relative to the flow they will see, that they become combonation waste and vent. 

So back to to the combo. If we have a 2" stack and we install a 2" inch double combo with 1.5" bushings in the arms that is catching twin lavs with 1.25" traps, will it siphon? Why or why not?


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Is there a continuous vent out the top? If so, no. I dont think 1.5" can bring in enough water to close off the 2" so there would be air flow and no pressure change.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

skip


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

roast Duck said:


> kentucky State Plumbing Codes there Are Codes In The Codebook That I Don't Agree With, But As A Whole I Feel It Offers The Public
> 
> One Of The Better Plumbing Systems Built Due To Its Non-fouling/error-free Design To Which It Is Designed To Handle The Maximum Dfu Load At Any Given Time.
> 
> ...



tempered Water.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Florida is the same way ron. tee on the back only for venting, no 3" vent required in residential though. As long as there is one 2" vent continuious from the slab your good. Also, no dry venting allowed either. Thank god for low consumption toilets. I think we are allowed unlimited distances for our toilet vents now. Ill have to check on that.



10-4 believe it or not you got it right just don't seem right huh?


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

stillaround said:


> Correct. The idea of a continuous waste vent system is a model that works--the exception with the 3" would not be code in some areas although everyone knows there would be no problems however, if the lateral filled then there is no safety for the trap you displayed and under enough pressure change the trap could have a problem


Is this also refered to as a gut vent?


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

Protech said:


> OK, so now that we have all established that if the pipes are large enough relative to the flow they will see, that they become combonation waste and vent.
> 
> So back to to the combo. If we have a 2" stack and we install a 2" inch double combo with 1.5" bushings in the arms that is catching twin lavs with 1.25" traps, will it siphon? Why or why not?


Bushing will act as "break" causing enough turbulance to protect.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Correct. :thumbsup: Because the water will slow down upon entering the 2" combo arm it will settle and allow air exchange in the same way the combination waste/vented kitchen does.



ASUPERTECH said:


> Bushing will act as "break" causing enough turbulance to protect.


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