# Copper Water Main Leak



## Ron

Monday I get to fix a 2 1/2" copper water main in a ceiling, pro press baby. :thumbsup:


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## GREENPLUM

will this be your first pro-press job?


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

Sounds like it will take all about 15 minutes.


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## Ron

No not the 1st, but the largest to date.


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## Ron

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Sounds like it will take all about 15 minutes.


Depends on how much water I'll have to bleed down, but yea 15 mins after the cut out.


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## TheMaster

I put propress in the same class of materials as a sharkbite. It seems to be working but for how long? I guess time will tell but I believe its an inferior method to use when installing copper. Theres noway those joints will last like a solder joint would. It's easy though and its quick. Goodluck with it.


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## Ron

The difference between propress and sharkbite, one has movement at the joint where as the other one is solid no movement, I have more confidence in the non movement of the joint. 

If a sloan valve that depends on an o-ring on a seal that has not moved for years and will remain sealed until disturbed then you can bet propress will work just as well.


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## GREENPLUM

Some guys say that Pro-Press takes the "PRO" out of it. I used it one time to install a 2"PRV and Ball valve. It took me about 15 min. Some of the fastest money I ever made.


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## Ron

You won't find your local DIY ever have use of this special equipment, or a least that I'm aware of.


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## GREENPLUM

They rent pro-press at my local tool rental shop. Its so easy a caveman could do it.


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## uaplumber

Same as "I don't trust that plastic stuff, I'll stick with cast"
or "I've been doing it this way for years"

There is a place for pro-press and a place for sharkbites.


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## Regulator

GREENPLUM said:


> They rent pro-press at my local tool rental shop. Its so easy a caveman could do it.


OK, which one of you guys have been spying on me?


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## user4

Ron The Plumber said:


> The difference between propress and sharkbite, one has movement at the joint where as the other one is solid no movement, I have more confidence in the non movement of the joint.
> 
> If a sloan valve that depends on an o-ring on a seal that has not moved for years and will remain sealed until disturbed then you can bet propress will work just as well.


Chicago is already seeing failures in water pipe risers done with Pro Press in high rise buildings, and I have personally repaired failures on Pro Press fittings used to connect water lines to machinery that are affected by vibration.


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## Protech

What about connections not subjected to vibrations?



Killertoiletspider said:


> Chicago is already seeing failures in water pipe risers done with Pro Press in high rise buildings, and I have personally repaired failures on Pro Press fittings used to connect water lines to machinery that are affected by vibration.


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## user4

Protech said:


> What about connections not subjected to vibrations?


The ones that provide for expansion and contraction or the ones that don't?


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## smellslike$tome

I can charge more for a sweat joint and regardless of whether or not pro press will be ok down the road, a pro press joint compared to a properly done sweat joint is no comparison. Oh yeah, did I mention that I can charge more for a sweat joint?


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## TheMaster

I still say inferior movement or not. Sloan valves do not get hot water. In twenty years when you walk into a building and see those propress fittings you will tell everyone "DONT EVEN BREATHE ON IT". Try to repair one joint and start 3 more joints leaking. The O rings will never last aslong as the pipes intended to. Simple as that. The system was developed due to the high labor cost of installing copper compared to plastics,plus like greenplumber said a cave man can do so the skill level drops a few notches.


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## Ron

It is a cold water feed, no hot water, and I can't have it down for long, it's a care home, so time matters, I'll post a picture of it when done.


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## TheMaster

Ron The Plumber said:


> It is a cold water feed, no hot water, and I can't have it down for long, it's a care home, so time matters, I'll post a picture of it when done.


 If it was hot water would you solder it or propress it?


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## Protech

That's a far cry from thousands of violent movements per hour.



Killertoiletspider said:


> The ones that provide for expansion and contraction or the ones that don't?


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## Protech

Another thing to consider. Why was the copper leaking in the first place? If it pin holed the 1st time there will likely be a second and a third. So what's going to fail first, the copper or the propress fittings?


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## user4

Protech said:


> That's a far cry from thousands of violent movements per hour.



Not really, have you ever worked on water risers in a building more than 40 floors tall?


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## Ron

TheMaster said:


> If it was hot water would you solder it or propress it?



Propress is rated for use on hot water distro


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## Ron

Protech said:


> Another thing to consider. Why was the copper leaking in the first place? If it pin holed the 1st time there will likely be a second and a third. So what's going to fail first, the copper or the propress fittings?


I'll post picture of the area I cut out, will know at that time. 

Not a pin hole more of seepage, had to oder the fitting needed.


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## TheMaster

Sharkbites are rated for hot water distro also. But anyway back to what I'm getting at. Hot water causes pipe movement as it expands and contracts. So theres your cause of movement and theres nothing that can be done about it. Its the weak point in the propress or any "o" ring sealing system. They are what they are. A suitable easy no brainer way to put copper together. Its what the world asked for:laughing:. One things good about it NO torch needed. That a big A+ somtimes.:thumbup:


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## Ron

Only need to hold for one year here, but I'm sure it will last for many years.


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## Protech

No, but I don't see why that would matter as they should have expansion joints at the appropriate intervals. And the movements will be maybe a few times a day if that.



Killertoiletspider said:


> Not really, have you ever worked on water risers in a building more than 40 floors tall?


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## TheMaster

It would have been nice to have about 15 years ago I did a job at a telephone hub station. They had a room full of hardrives in racks with some type of fire protection system.....halon gas or somthing. I dont rememeber. But they said no torches allowed or it will set the system off. I ended up flaring the copper for the repair.


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## user4

Protech said:


> No, but I don't see why that would matter as they should have expansion joints at the appropriate intervals. And the movements will be maybe a few times a day if that.


What is the appropriate interval for a riser with Pro Press fittings?


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## Protech

Dunno, I'll look it up.

I could compute it. All I need is the maximum delta T and the acceptable degree of deflection for the joints.



Killertoiletspider said:


> What is the appropriate interval for a riser with Pro Press fittings?


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## user4

Protech said:


> Dunno, I'll look it up.
> 
> I could compute it. All I need is the maximum delta T and the acceptable degree of deflection for the joints.


You'll need min and max temps too.


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## Protech

Sent an e-mail to viega. Will post the response.


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## Protech

delta T is the difference between the two.



Killertoiletspider said:


> You'll need min and max temps too.


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## ILPlumber

Over the last year, I have witnessed pro-press being denied by engineers more and more. 

I still love copper Vic. Excellent product. Good tolerance to deflection. Excellent track record.


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## 1703

ILPlumber said:


> Over the last year, I have witnessed pro-press being denied by engineers more and more.


Any reasons given?


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## Protech

Usually the deformation of the copper pipe. They are worried about cavitation / impingement. If the line is big enough that's not very likely though.



Colgar said:


> Any reasons given?


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## ILPlumber

They never give me a reason. I never ask. Why argue. They are calling the shots. 

2" pro-press joints look down right gnarly.


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## trick1

I always wondered about erosion corrosion in the propress joint..... Because it slightly deforms the pipe when the connection is made, can it cause problems with laminar flow and cause corrosion...similar to an ureamed piece of tubing.

I used propress on one project to try it out. Aside from the erosion thing, it can slightly deflect a pipe out of square a little. 

Not so noticable with short runs but really pronounced if you are hanging lengths of tubing.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

trick1 said:


> I always wondered about erosion corrosion in the propress joint..... Because it slightly deforms the pipe when the connection is made, can it cause problems with laminar flow and cause corrosion...similar to an ureamed piece of tubing.
> 
> I used propress on one project to try it out. Aside from the erosion thing, it can slightly deflect a pipe out of square a little.
> 
> Not so noticable with short runs but really pronounced if you are hanging lengths of tubing.



Ive seen the same thing with sweat couplings too though to be fair. Pipe is only as straight as the hangers.:thumbsup:


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## Protech

I don't particularly agree with the engineers on this issue. It's not the same as an un-reamed tube. The indentation is much smoother and does not intrude into the flow net as much as the classic un-reamed burr does. You need 2 things for e/c to be a problem: obstructions in the flow net that with non-tapering back sides and high flow velocity. If a propress system is sized right it will never be an issue. I would worry more about the o-rings. That's what keeps me up at night.



trick1 said:


> I always wondered about erosion corrosion in the propress joint..... Because it slightly deforms the pipe when the connection is made, can it cause problems with laminar flow and cause corrosion...similar to an ureamed piece of tubing.
> 
> I used propress on one project to try it out. Aside from the erosion thing, it can slightly deflect a pipe out of square a little.
> 
> Not so noticable with short runs but really pronounced if you are hanging lengths of tubing.


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## trick1

Protech said:


> I don't particularly agree with the engineers on this issue. It's not the same as an un-reamed tube. The indentation is much smoother and does not intrude into the flow net as much as the classic un-reamed burr does. You need 2 things for e/c to be a problem: obstructions in the flow net that with non-tapering back sides and high flow velocity. If a propress system is sized right it will never be an issue. I would worry more about the o-rings. That's what keeps me up at night.



True enough.....sizing does play a huge part.


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## Ron

I'm home with the crud today, so there will be no pictures, will be home tomorrow also, sorry to disappoint you, but I did not plan on getting sick, hit me Friday night and with asma it is a horrible experience.


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## PLUMB TIME

What part of "lay down and rest" don't you get?

get well Ron


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## Protech

Talked to viega today and the guy said the intervals are the same as soldered copper. He's sending me a bunch of astm and nsf paperwork on the system. He is also sending some papers written by engineers showing that the indentations that the tool makes are not going to cause cavitation if the velocities are within code. You have to way outside of the speed limits to get cavitation from such smooth bumps.

I can't acces that e-mail from my laptop so I'll post up the paperwork when I get home.


Killertoiletspider said:


> What is the appropriate interval for a riser with Pro Press fittings?


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## Protech

He also notified me that nearly all of the highrises going up right now in Orlando are being done in a combination of propress copper and pex manablocs. Including 55 west (the most well known one around here).


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## user4

Protech said:


> Talked to viega today and the guy said the intervals are the same as soldered copper.




And those intervals are?


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## Protech

Got a written response from viega today.


"Per our conversation last week, attached are the documents you requested. It was a pleasure to discuss the various Viega product lines with you, and please feel free to contact me with any additional needs that you might have."


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## ToUtahNow

Protech said:


> Got a written response from viega today.
> 
> 
> "Per our conversation last week, attached are the documents you requested. It was a pleasure to discuss the various Viega product lines with you, and please feel free to contact me with any additional needs that you might have."


It's interesting they used an outside consultant to write the letter instead of an in-house engineer.

Mark


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## Protech

I was kinda wondering that in the back of my mind to. Why not just have their engineers publish a paper onit. I think maybe because that way they can't be pinned down later as saying it won't cavitate. "we never said that."



ToUtahNow said:


> It's interesting they used an outside consultant to write the letter instead of an in-house engineer.
> 
> Mark


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## user4

Protech said:


> I was kinda wondering that in the back of my mind to. Why not just have their engineers publish a paper onit. I think maybe because that way they can't be pinned down later as saying it won't cavitate. "we never said that."



Bingo.

Like I said, there are already issues with it in Chicago, and the city is considering doing away with it on anything but single family homes.


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## Protech

Just for the record, I don't see it cavitating as long as the speeds are kept in check.


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## BarakThePlumber

Killertoiletspider said:


> Bingo.
> 
> Like I said, there are already issues with it in Chicago, and the city is considering doing away with it on anything but single family homes.


That's probably why you can "steal" Pro-press units on C/L up here :hang:
I seen a commercial WH put in last week with Pro-Press and not one of the 6 lines (connected with PP) were even close to being straight/square!! I think it goes to show you the "type" or mind-set of the plumbers (or whatever they call themselves) that use these get into.. :turned:


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## hulihan

I have never used it, seen the fittings, they are heavy, but it looks easy, and the guy at the counter, well, not the guy, his name is Mike, he is not a plumber, just very knowledgeable about plumbing stuff, said he did his moms house with Pro Press in one day, probably lying a tad, but it must make installing copper faster, can one get burned with Pro Press ? Takes the fun out of running 3" and larger copper, not to many guys can solder/Braze big pipe, I am only speaking for guys here in West LA, none of my plumber friends have big tanks, we do  I am sure dome of you Commerical guys can do it well.


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## Protech

You guys see that system muellers got now? You glue the copper together. I think it's called "streamtech".

As in a stream of water coming from a leaking joint??:laughing:


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## Protech

http://streamtechsystem.com/content.asp?id=602


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## Protech

Ya know, I just thought of something.............What happens when the service plumber comes in and doesn't realize that there are streamtech or propress fittings behind the wall and tries to install a soldered stop or tries to solder onto a stub out to extend a line???? :whistling2:


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## ckoch407

Pro Press has its place. I have used pro press ball valves to make fast repairs on 4" down to 1-1/2" to keep from waiting all day for the water to drain down and then solder the rest once the waters isolated. The hotel Mgrs and Engineers dont care about anything but how fast their guests can get their water back on. Lots of commercial service guys in Orlando use them for that reason. But I could never see using it for complete systems. 

And have you seen the Pro Press system they have for gas now? Who is crazy enough to try that?


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## Redwood

GREENPLUM said:


> They rent pro-press at my local tool rental shop. Its so easy a caveman could do it.



yea thats where Carlos rents it...:whistling2:


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