# to run a trap or not to run a trap....?



## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

Remodeling a bath. The tub sits on an overhang leaving the trap exposed in the exterior of the house. Whoever plumbed the drain installed the trap 2' from the center of the tub. So I'm wondering if I should recipe with a running trap or run the drain correctly and insulate the heck our of and pray it doesn't freeze


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

plumb nutz said:


> Remodeling a bath. The tub sits on an overhang leaving the trap exposed in the exterior of the house. Whoever plumbed the drain installed the trap 2' from the center of the tub. So I'm wondering if I should recipe with a running trap or run the drain correctly and insulate the heck our of and pray it doesn't freeze


 Why is the overhang not already insulated and closed in?

If the overhang is part of the homes living space, then the exposed portion of the overhang should be insulated to local energy code requirements and closed up.

As for how to Plumb it, hopefully You're permitting the work and having it inspected -- Which means You're going to have to do it to minimal Code requirements, which likely prohibit the use of running traps.

Hope that answers your question.


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

It's a remodel. As long as there is no change to the original plumbing layout there is no permit required (ie... there is a bathroom already there and I'm not adding anything

Yes there is insulation there, it is closed up, however, saying it won't freeze in an overhang even when its "properly" sealed? I've repaired way too many.

I have talked to inspectors here in VA and pretty much comes down to the inspector and what their definition of a running trap.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Here, If you are changing the tub you would need a permit.


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## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

That trap wouldn't freeze in NJ. I've seen that a lot, but not the smartest thing to do.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

vinpadalino said:


> That trap wouldn't freeze in NJ. I've seen that a lot, but not the smartest thing to do.


I think you've found the easiest possible solution... Install the trap in jersey!

Duh!

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## suzie (Sep 1, 2010)

Ahh that trap wouldn't freeze in Minnesota either. Are you kiddin' me. Why trap it just tell them to use the old tub in the front yard


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

> It's a remodel. As long as there is no change to the original plumbing layout there is no permit required (ie... there is a bathroom already there and I'm not adding anything


Ummm.....

If you're changing the configuration of the trap arm enough to consider a running trap over a p-trap, then you've already met the criteria for pulling a permit.



> Yes there is insulation there, it is closed up, however, saying it won't freeze in an overhang even when its "properly" sealed? I've repaired way too many.


 That really lacks a palpable sense of sincerity.

Are you sure You're being straight with me?



> I have talked to inspectors here in VA and pretty much comes down to the inspector and what their definition of a running trap.


 A running trap is a running trap.

This isn't a gray area, nutz.

Either they're prohibited under your prevailing Code or they aren't.

Which is it?


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

vinpadalino said:


> That trap wouldn't freeze in NJ. I've seen that a lot, but not the smartest thing to do.


 
Wanna bet?


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

VA is under IPC. Nowhere in the code does it say that a running trap is illegal. Infact, section 1002.1 of 06 allows 30" from center of said fixture to center of trap inlet.

However, being taught by old timers, no running traps are allowed, but never given a reason why especially after pointing out that ADA wall hung lavys are typically trapped that way and combination drains are also running traps. 

And no, as long as the plumbing isn't changed, I don't need a permit. Since the running trap was already there I wasnt going to do a darned thing about it. After seeing the overhang and being lucky enough to notice the cold air entering the basement from the wonderful job on the construction of this 50 yr. Old house, I think its the best thing for it.

As far as freezing... I've had master bath drains in the middle of a house freeze from a cold wind making its way through the garage and 24" of insulation. Anything is possible....


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## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

U.A.til.I.die said:


> I think you've found the easiest possible solution... Install the trap in jersey!
> 
> Duh!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


 I've seen water lines run on outside walls all the time + heat lines. The trap is exposed to the room temp + the sewer lines are always warm. That's why you don't have to bury them below frost line! Here in NJ is a lot colder then Virgina.


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## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Wanna bet?


If it's insulated it wont freeze, but not the smartest thing to do, just like running hot, cold water lines on outside wall! Not smart! 
If it was a problem it would be in code book!


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## Pipe Dreams (Feb 10, 2011)

vinpadalino said:


> If it's insulated it wont freeze, but not the smartest thing to do, just like running hot, cold water lines on outside wall! Not smart!
> If it was a problem it would be in code book!


Just because something is not written in the code book does not make it correct....this is where common sense comes into play. Unfortunately many people are lacking in this area.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I can't find where running traps are not legal in ANY code book. As long as the trap vent is within proper distance. 

Insulation does not keep anything from freezing all it does is slow down the time it takes to freeze.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

vinpadalino said:


> I've seen water lines run on outside walls all the time + heat lines. The trap is exposed to the room temp + the sewer lines are always warm. That's why you don't have to bury them below frost line! Here in NJ is a lot colder then Virgina.


I can't say that I have never seen a frozen trap because I have seen them....
Yo Vinnie, I can't say your weather is too far different from ours...


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

A running trap is essentially a building or house trap. New York city has many bldg traps which were installed years ago. Now they are generally prohibited by codes. They invite stoppages. Just ask NYC plumbers who do drain cleaning in residential.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Its only a building trap if it's on the main. On a tub it's just a running trap.


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## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

Pipe Dreams said:


> Just because something is not written in the code book does not make it correct....this is where common sense comes into play. Unfortunately many people are lacking in this area.


Listen I said in every post it's not smart to do!


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

vinpadalino said:


> If it's insulated it wont freeze, but not the smartest thing to do, just like running hot, cold water lines on outside wall! Not smart!
> If it was a problem it would be in code book!


Uhh, it will absolutley, positively freeze. Without a doubt. I don't care how much insulation is there. 

Insulation will only DELAY a freeze. It WILL NOT prevent it. 

You can take that to the bank, bud.


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## Walt (Mar 12, 2011)

just leave it. you know if it aint broke dont fix it. it may not be what you always dreamed of, plumbing wise, but, sounds like, you dont have a lot of choice. i have seen some plumbing that, to how how i was trained, seems crazy. tees used on the horizontal. it seems in the sixties and seventees thats all they used here in tn..but the crazy thing is they are all still draining fine...no that is not my way, but it does work, i see it a lot. your main concern is freezing, and a trap will if left exposed..not a matter of will, but when..


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## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Uhh, it will absolutley, positively freeze. Without a doubt. I don't care how much insulation is there.
> 
> Insulation will only DELAY a freeze. It WILL NOT prevent it.
> 
> You can take that to the bank, bud.


So why don't hot and cold water lines freeze then! Ask the Bank that question! hahaha. Don't get all up tight friendly debate here!


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

vinpadalino said:


> So why don't hot and cold water lines freeze then! Ask the Bank that question! hahaha. Don't get all up tight friendly debate here!


They do, all the time...

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

vinpadalino said:


> So why don't hot and cold water lines freeze then! Ask the Bank that question! hahaha. Don't get all up tight friendly debate here!


Yah any water line will freeze regardless if it is insulated or not if the water has time to reach freezing point.... if the water moves periodically then it will not freeze if there is enough insulation.

However.... most of our frozen pipes are because there is air leakage in the insulation allowing the freezing air to freeze the pipe....

Boils down to bad insualtion job...

I have had pipes freeze 12 ft inside the house from bad insulation and vapour barrier jobs.. cold air shoot between the floor joist of the finnished ceiling and eventually freezes the pipe and it splits.


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