# Fluidmaster failures?



## gear junkie

About a month ago I replaced a 400 fluidmaster that another plumber had replaced a month earlier. Yesterday I replaced one that I replaced 2 weeks ago. Issue with both was the incomplete shutoff but if you manually lift the float, it would immediately seal. The pressure to the first case was 75 psi, pressure on the second one was 60 psi.

Anyone else seen this?


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## Plumbducky

Have not had that issue yet. Hope not, cause I just rebuilt 6 toilets in the last few weeks.


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## jc-htownplumber

Was the float filling with water. I had 2 in the last month that did that


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## sparky

gear junkie said:


> About a month ago I replaced a 400 fluidmaster that another plumber had replaced a month earlier. Yesterday I replaced one that I replaced 2 weeks ago. Issue with both was the incomplete shutoff but if you manually lift the float, it would immediately seal. The pressure to the first case was 75 psi, pressure on the second one was 60 psi.
> 
> Anyone else seen this?


yes,have seen it and i hate the fluidmaster fill valves,the old 200 that wasnt backflow proof was the best valve they ever had,but now they are just rinky dink junk,i have went back to using the old style ballcock with a float and float arm,believe it or not they work better and dont seem to have any call backs on them,and they are about same price as fluidmaster or a little cheaper.:yes:


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## sparky

jc-htownplumber said:


> Was the float filling with water. I had 2 in the last month that did that


yes have run into that also,are you installing the fluidmasters from lowes,hope depot,or hardware stores???i use the pro45 fluidmaster fill valve and they seem to be a little better,but the only difference is they have a red cap on top,whereas the others have a black cap on top,oh and you can get them with a brass shank also if you want to


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## gear junkie

sparky said:


> yes have run into that also,are you installing the fluidmasters from lowes,hope depot,or hardware stores???i use the pro45 fluidmaster fill valve and they seem to be a little better,but the only difference is they have a red cap on top,whereas the others have a black cap on top,oh and you can get them with a brass shank also if you want to


I called fluidmaster directly and asked the the difference between the pro45 and the 400 and was told not a thing except for the red cap but the pro dooes come with a metering device for different toilet.

Not sure if the first float was waterlogged but the one i pulled yesterday wasn't.

Kinda weird....went years without a fluidmaster issue but then 2 in the same month.


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## BC73RS

Had the same problem last month. New toilet with factory installed fluid master, swapped it out with a replacement fluid master, no issues. I didn't have the time to check why but do have the defective one today, when I have time I'll test it at home.


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## ChrisConnor

I only install korky, never fluidmaster. I figured if it was good enough for toto, then it's good enough for me.


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## Cal

Wolverine Brass Hush fill valve with brass shank and Wolverine Brass triple crimp metal nuts supply tube. This is the way I go because they work GREAT and I don't have to worry about cracked plastic nuts. They fill quickly and shut off .


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## dhal22

The Hydroclean is my filler valve. Explain some of the 11 patents on the valve to the customer and they promptly request all of their toilets to be rebuilt. A failed PRV had blew out 2 Fluidmasters yesterday, explain the Hydroclean and I get a request to replace all 6 in the house plus the PRV.

Easy money.


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## ChrisConnor

What's so speciAl about the hydro clean?


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## Will

I hate fuildmaster. I install Korky or Mansfield


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## Master Mark

we have installed thousands of fluidmasters and never had a problem with them.... on a very rare occasioin we have run into sand and lime passing through the pipes that has clogged up the little diaphram rubber but its extremely rare... we had to replace the fluidmaster with an old style metal ballcock due to all the lime breaking free in the pipes in an office ..it was the only thing that would last 

.. normally they last for decades in this area


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## ChrisConnor

Master Mark said:


> we have installed thousands of fluidmasters normally they last for decades in this area


That's a long time for a toilet valve.


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## gear junkie

Well today had another one. Homeowner installed. Pressure is 65 psi. Looks like I'm going with WB.


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## Plumbducky

Had the korky rep give me a few of their pro grade ballcocks, been wondering if they would hold up as well as the fluidmaster's. Just have not seen the failures you guys have.


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## jc-htownplumber

sparky said:


> yes have run into that also,are you installing the fluidmasters from lowes,hope depot,or hardware stores???i use the pro45 fluidmaster fill valve and they seem to be a little better,but the only difference is they have a red cap on top,whereas the others have a black cap on top,oh and you can get them with a brass shank also if you want to


No we use the pro 45 as much as we can. Just depends where we are working at. The last couple that had a problem filling up are the ones that comes with the Vortens toilets ,house brand toilet, what I found is that they have all the safety crap if the toilet leaks through it will stop the water. There is two holes in the bottom where that thing attaches that I seen fill with water


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## ChrisConnor

Plumbducky said:


> Had the korky rep give me a few of their pro grade ballcocks, been wondering if they would hold up as well as the fluidmaster's. Just have not seen the failures you guys have.


What is their "pro grade"?


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## chonkie

ChrisConnor said:


> What is their "pro grade"?


It has a "special shank" that is supposed to be quieter while filling and reduce water hammer.


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## Plumbducky

chonkie said:


> It has a "special shank" that is supposed to be quieter while filling and reduce water hammer.


Also has a 5 year warranty in it.


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## ChrisConnor

Plumbducky said:


> Also has a 5 year warranty in it.


The regular korky has that.


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## Plumbducky

Maybe there is more to it than that. I will check the boxes later.


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## dhal22

ChrisConnor said:


> What's so speciAl about the hydro clean?


It was the 1st filler valve to have a balancing valve on the water tube going to the bowl. Show the customer how much water is being wasted in the bowl while the tank is filling and their eyes bug out. Every time I get an order to change out every filler valve in the house.

It injects water into the tank via a hose that wraps around the flapper. The hose has tiny pinholes in it allowing the incoming water to stir up sediment.

Adjust the valve height by rotating, adjusting and rotating back. Super easy.

Need to change a flapper and spend time adjusting the flapper chain? Slide a plastic catch on the filler valve arm and it keeps the water off while you work.

Tighten the filler valve nut underneath the bowl by hand, it has a built it torque setting that clicks as you tighten. Four clicks(?) and you are to spec.

Adjust the float height by spinning the float shaft with your fingers.

There's more, truly a neat invention. 

David


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## Plumbducky

ChrisConnor said:


> What is their "pro grade"?


7year warranty, and quieter


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## ChrisConnor

Funny they make two tiers of the same product. They should just make one good one.


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## Redwood

dhal22 said:


> The Hydroclean is my filler valve.


I installed some customer supplied Hydroclean fill valves a couple of years back and initially thought I'd be switching over to them...

Thank Goodness they were customer supplied... 
They didn't work out all that well....
Of the 5 valves I originally installed only 1 remains, and that one is coming out real soon with a toilet replacement...

A word of caution on the bowl water replenishment adjustment...
Lean towards excess when a water supply has pressure fluctuations such as a well system....


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## dhal22

I occasionally see some in repeat customers homes that are several yrs old, still working fine. I suppose I've replaced 1 or 2 but not bad for 100's and 100's installed. We order them by the case.


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## Master Mark

dhal22 said:


> I occasionally see some in repeat customers homes that are several yrs old, still working fine. I suppose I've replaced 1 or 2 but not bad for 100's and 100's installed. We order them by the case.


sSame thing with us, we order the fluid master by the case with the plastic shank, not the brass and never have had troubles..

In our area usually they get so old that the lime in the water actually gets encased and encrusted to the shank and on the plastic float ...... thats hard limey water..


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## ChrisConnor

I've looked in tanks that have the hydro clean installed and I can say the tanks look cleaner and you can see the rust near the jet is gone. I don't know how much the flapper slime issue is really problem enough that it needs to be addressed. I don't see slime on blue vinyl flappers, but I do see it on rubber flappers that are only a few months old.


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## dhal22

The most important thing I like about the Hydro clean is explaining the balancing valve and what happens without it to the customer. Once they realize the wasted water with less advanced valves it's an easy sell. Customers will request that I replace all valves regardless of their condition. Easy sales aren't a bad thing.


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## plbgbiz

dhal22 said:


> The most important thing I like about the Hydro clean is explaining the balancing valve and what happens without it to the customer. Once they realize the wasted water with less advanced valves it's an easy sell. Customers will request that I replace all valves regardless of their condition. Easy sales aren't a bad thing.


 Does the turbulence aimed toward the middle cause any problems with the flapper trying to close?


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## Redwood

One of the things I question about the HydroClean Valve is obviously the "Keeping The Tank Clean" is aimed at washing any sediment in the water down into the flush valve....

My concern is do you really want to do that? Intentionally sending sediment down into the internal water passages of the toilet could very easily block the holes under the rim and siphon jet affecting the flushing performance of the toilet.

Nice idea... But in the real world.....
Sometimes solving one problem creates another one that is worse....


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## Redwood

plbgbiz said:


> Does the turbulence aimed toward the middle cause any problems with the flapper trying to close?


I believe it easily could in a high pressure supply situation...
In a normal pressure there are enough outlets that the flow is probably diffused enough not to be a problem...


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## plbgbiz

Redwood said:


> One of the things I question about the HydroClean Valve is obviously the "Keeping The Tank Clean" is aimed at washing any sediment in the water down into the flush valve....


I actually like the toilt tank being a tattletale. A quick look into the tank is often an effective means of determining sediment issues on the potable water coming in. Great selling point for a filter system.


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## ChrisConnor

dhal22 said:


> The most important thing I like about the Hydro clean is explaining the balancing valve and what happens without it to the customer. Once they realize the wasted water with less advanced valves it's an easy sell. Customers will request that I replace all valves regardless of their condition. Easy sales aren't a bad thing.


What's the balancing valve? Is it one of those things that pinch the refill tube?


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## sparky

ChrisConnor said:


> What's the balancing valve? Is it one of those things that pinch the refill tube?


was wondering this myself,i dont understand how a balancing valve works in this type of float valve.is there a picture of it????


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## rjbphd

sparky said:


> was wondering this myself,i dont understand how a balancing valve works in this type of float valve.is there a picture of it????


Its m.ore of restricting valve.. balancing valves belong on hydronic heating system


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## Redwood

ChrisConnor said:


> What's the balancing valve? Is it one of those things that pinch the refill tube?





sparky said:


> was wondering this myself,i dont understand how a balancing valve works in this type of float valve.is there a picture of it????


The balancing valve is the round blue object just below and to the right of the blue cap in the picture I posted above. It is a valve with a small lever that you move to adjust the flow on the bowl refill....

It is a bit temperamental and sensitive to pressure fluctuations like you would see on a well pump system.


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## sparky

Redwood said:


> The balancing valve is the round blue object just below and to the right of the blue cap in the picture I posted above. It is a valve with a small lever that you move to adjust the flow on the bowl refill....
> 
> It is a bit temperamental and sensitive to pressure fluctuations like you would see on a well pump system.


ok i understand it now,it just seems to me that it is just something else to break or go wrong.but hey if it works im all for it:thumbup:


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## dhal22

rjbphd said:


> Its m.ore of restricting valve.. balancing valves belong on hydronic heating system



Correct, the valve restricts the water flow to the bowl. You restrict it and balance the bowl and tank to fill up equally. As compared to a normal filler valve continues to send water to the already full bowl while the tank is still filling.


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## sparky

dhal22 said:


> Correct, the valve restricts the water flow to the bowl. You restrict it and balance the bowl and tank to fill up equally. As compared to a normal filler valve continues to send water to the already full bowl while the tank is still filling.


I see what you are saying now,do think that a regular fill valve puts that much extra water in the bowl that it runs over and down the drain pipe???i never thought that that much water went over the trap and into the sewer


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## olegl

I am now on a visit at Tiffany's. Used the toilet and he merges bad! I had to take the key and remove and wash water supply valve


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## olegl

As usual we have in Russia used the cheapest fittings in barrels for the toilet.


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## olegl

olegl said:


> As usual we have in Russia used the cheapest fittings in barrels for the toilet.


 happy new year!


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## Buddy

not long ago i bought a case of 24 pro 45b with the brass shanks. at least half of them had the same problem you described. Now i always carry an extra seal that goes under the red cap and almost always swap it out and problem solved.I also like the Wolverine hush valve but they seem a bit noisy?


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## damnplumber

I've had so many call backs on those darn fluid master valves that after 20 years of faithful fm. sales, I switched to korky last year with no regrets.


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## rjbphd

damnplumber said:


> I've had so many call backs on those darn fluid master valves that after 20 years of faithful fm. sales, I switched to korky last year with no regrets.


Such as?? Only times I replace FM are when I seen float start to stick.. time's up.. ..


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## rjbphd

damnplumber said:


> I've had so many call backs on those darn fluid master valves that after 20 years of faithful fm. sales, I switched to korky last year with no regrets.


Such as?? Only times I replace FM are when I seen float start to stick.. time's up.. ..


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## KoleckeINC

rjbphd said:


> Such as?? Only times I replace FM are when I seen float start to stick.. time's up.. ..


And I bet you don't even change out the bottom.


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## rjbphd

KoleckeINC said:


> And I bet you don't even change out the bottom.


The whole thing, inc the supply..


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## paultheplumber1

I have and will continue to use the FM pro with the brass shank. For years we've had no issues with them. The only thing I didn't like is up until a few months ago it seems they changed there height adjust design. It seems now there gone back to the old twist to extend style and I'm happy they did.


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## OpenSights

Other than one here or there over the years, I've had little trouble. One repeat call back, third time I figured out crud from the galvie lines plugged up the first two.

Once I went to a call where the toilet just wasn't flushing right. Replaced the flapper as it was closing too fast... new flapper, same problem.... second new flapper, same issue. Talked with HO about a new stool, they said no, it was less than a year old. Called my boss, he said replace the fluid master... I didn't think it was the problem, but hey, I was on the clock. Replaced it, flushed perfect every time. Seen that every other year or so since and haven't been able to wrap my head around why.


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## rjbphd

OpenSights said:


> Other than one here or there over the years, I've had little trouble. One repeat call back, third time I figured out crud from the galvie lines plugged up the first two.
> 
> Once I went to a call where the toilet just wasn't flushing right. Replaced the flapper as it was closing too fast... new flapper, same problem.... second new flapper, same issue. Talked with HO about a new stool, they said no, it was less than a year old. Called my boss, he said replace the fluid master... I didn't think it was the problem, but hey, I was on the clock. Replaced it, flushed perfect every time. Seen that every other year or so since and haven't been able to wrap my head around why.


Two things here.. this where the fishing bobber comes in again.. second..this is why and where the qtr turn shut offs shall never be used..


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## OpenSights

rjbphd said:


> Two things here.. this where the fishing bobber comes in again.. second..this is why and where the qtr turn shut offs shall never be used..


Not doubting you, but I've seen it with both scenarios with and without either. Now there is one municipality around here that goes through FM's commonly due to overly high water pressure. They either develop a water hammer chatter or just loose it all together and continuously run.


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## rjbphd

OpenSights said:


> Not doubting you, but I've seen it with both scenarios with and without either. Now there is one municipality around here that goes through FM's commonly due to overly high water pressure. They either develop a water hammer chatter or just loose it all together and continuously run.


This where the pre-charged air chamber comes in!


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## OpenSights

rjbphd said:


> This where the pre-charged air chamber comes in!


Anymore I just install solid brass ballcocks up there, no problems since. 

Funny story... week two in training I was given the "Your turn to deal with the customer." line. Nice little old lady. My partner had to leave me high and dry to not burst out laughing when I said "Well Mrs. Customer, your cock and ball is bad and needs to be replaced." Thankfully it went right over her head, but it was a never ending joke at the shop and with dispatch.


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## wharfrat

rjbphd said:


> Two things here.. this where the fishing bobber comes in again.. second..this is why and where the qtr turn shut offs shall never be used..


Will you expand on quarter turn shut offs??

I thought everyone loved em'


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## plbgbiz

wharfrat said:


> Will you expand on quarter turn shut offs??
> 
> 
> 
> I thought everyone loved em'



After six months of non-use and a bit of hard water and they are no more than a chrome reducing 90deg elbow. The stems have a tendency to snap like a twig.

Long term, the best option is an old school brass valve with a packing nut. Think of it being of the quality of a chrome plated boiler drain. Probabky still the single best product offered by Wolverine Brass.


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## rjbphd

plbgbiz said:


> After six months of non-use and a bit of hard water and they are no more than a chrome reducing 90deg elbow. The stems have a tendency to snap like a twig.
> 
> Long term, the best option is an old school brass valve with a packing nut. Think of it being of the quality of a chrome plated boiler drain. Probabky still the single best product offered by Wolverine Brass.


 No plm with plastic stem as long u take them apart and grease the stem prior to installation..


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## mlagasse

damnplumber said:


> I've had so many call backs on those darn fluid master valves that after 20 years of faithful fm. sales, I switched to korky last year with no regrets.


Hi Damnplumber - I would like to know what type of issues you encountering? If possible please contact me directly or I will check back here.
[email protected]

Mike


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## Gargalaxy

mlagasse said:


> Hi Damnplumber - I would like to know what type of issues you encountering? If possible please contact me directly or I will check back here.
> [email protected]
> 
> Mike


:what:


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## rjbphd

mlagasse said:


> Hi Damnplumber - I would like to know what type of issues you encountering? If possible please contact me directly or I will check back here.
> [email protected]
> 
> Mike


How about doing a full intro before you get fluided..


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