# What's wrong with this picture



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

This is a post from a "plumber". And you wonder why the trade is in the toilet.

"Makes little sense. With seismic activity shaking a heater, why would they accept flexes to protect a heater from snapping off at the tank, but not accept them on the same type of tank connection. 

there are some inspectors enforcing unions on relief valve piping. They also accept the ultra thin plastic relief discharge pipe, but a flex line that's properly graded is not acceptable. 

when has anyone had a heater that a relief valve actually saved a runaway out of control water heater? I know that 99% of the dripping relief valves that I run into are worn out and drip.the other 1% are due to thermal expansion. 

still waiting to see or hear about a runaway heater that blasted off, Heck, even myth busters had a difficult time trying to launch a heater. "


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I dont really get what you are talking about....??
what are you getting at

in some parts of the usa you must use flex connectors on both the gas and water lines due to movement in the soil 

myth busters has about 5 or more water heater videos of water heaters going off....

are you talking about having them strapped down to the home>>>/??.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

The thread is about the use of flex connectors on water heater relief discharge. The post here is from a plumber that apparently believes water heaters don't go boom.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

oh...ok


we usually install cpvc on the t+p valves and that is ok fine with me....

the union idea is stupid and costly... 

a flex connector on the pop off valve could get kinked and obstructed so it should be hard piped...

he ought to know this 

never-mind...........:laughing:.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Yep, and code allows cpvc or PVC for the discharge too. This trades full of guys that should have been electricians.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Yep, and code allows cpvc or PVC for the discharge too. This trades full of guys that should have been electricians.


What Code allows PVC for a discharge line. PVC is only rated to 140 degrees?

Mark


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

IPC lists it as acceptable, UPC doesn't and I can't remember if the nat std code does or not. But the topic was the use of copper flex lines. I assume perhaps the stainless flex lines as well.


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## panther (Oct 27, 2010)

I've have seen many water heaters where someone used a water heater flex on the t&p. I told a homeowner once that those are not acceptable for that. He got mad and told me to show him in the code book where you can't use a flex on the t&p. Sure enough, I couldn't find anything.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

What code? Because both the IPC and the UPC have a table that lists what is acceptable.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

The installation in question


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Now that's quality


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

the copper flex lines are just as good as dialectric unions imho..
considering he is having to tie into cpvc pipe that was already there,
its about as good a hack job as you can expect...... except there is
no thermal expansion tank.....

the flex line going to the t +p drain is pretty bad....

you wonder why he would not just run it out of the cpvc pipe that is 
already half way there ....... he must have run out of fittings.....


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Is that a steel coupling on the T&p relief?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Looks to me like a dielectric nipple. The kind that comes with the tank lol. Threads getting even worse. Now a member is saying that code requires a means of disconnecting the hot and cold piping and the relief valve piping without having to cut the pipes. Anybody find that in the code? Lol. Like I said, most of these guys should have been electricians.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Where is this thread located?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Where's the Vacuum relief? Ya ya I know it's a Ma thing


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## panther (Oct 27, 2010)

nhmaster3015 said:


> what code? Because both the ipc and the upc have a table that lists what is acceptable.


upc


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> What Code allows PVC for a discharge line. PVC is only rated to 140 degrees?
> 
> Mark





nhmaster3015 said:


> What code? Because both the IPC and the UPC have a table that lists what is acceptable.


You're suppose to be teaching this stuff? You need to study up on your Codes. Perhaps you should have been an Electrician

*UPC
608.5* Relief valves located inside a building shall be
provided with a drain, not smaller than the relief
valve outlet, of galvanized steel, hard-drawn copper
piping and fittings, CPVC, or listed relief valve drain
tube with fittings that will not reduce the internal
bore of the pipe or tubing (straight lengths as
opposed to coils) and shall extend from the valve to
the outside of the building, with the end of the pipe
not more than two (2) feet (610 rom) nor less than six
(6) inches (152 rom) above the ground or the flood
level of the area receiving the discharge and pointing
downward. Such drains may terminate at other
approved locations. Relief valve drains shall not
terminate in a building's crawl space. No part of
such drain pipe shall be trapped or subject to
freezing. 

*IPC*
*504.5* Relief valve approval. Temperature and pressure relief valves, or combinations thereof, and 
energy cutoff devices shall bear the label of an approved agency and shall have a tem* perature 
setting of not more than 210°F (99°C) and a pressure setting not exceeding the tank or water heater 
manufacturer's rated working pressure or 150 psi (1035 kPa), whichever is less. The relieving 
capacity of each pressure relief valve and each temperature relief valve shall equal or exceed the 
heat input to the water heater or storage tank.

*504.6* Requirements for discharge piping. The discharge piping serving a pressure relief valve, 
temperature relief valve or combination thereof shall:
1. Not be directly connected to the drainage system.
2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.
3. Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and shall discharge full size 
to the air gap.
4. Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to pip* ing serving any other relief device 
or equipment.
5. Discharge to the floor, to the pan serving the water heater or storage tank, to a waste receptor 
or to the out* doors.
6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.
7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observ*
able by the building occupants.
8. Not be trapped.
9. Be installed so as to flow by gravity.
10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste receptor.
11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of such pip* ing.
12. Not have valves or tee fittings.
13. Be constructed of those materials listed in Section
605.4 or materials tested, rated and approved for such
use in accordance with ASME Al 12.4.1.

*605.4* Water distribution pipe. Water distribution pipe shall conform to NSF 61 and shall conform to one of the standards listed in Table 605.4. All hot water distribution pipe and tubing shall have a minimum pressure rating of 100 psi (690 kPa) at 180°F (82°C).

*TABLE 605.4
WATER DISTRIBUTION PIPE*
MATERIAL 
STANDARD

Brass pipe 
ASTM B 43
Chlorinated polyvinyl chloride (CPVC) plastic pipe and tubing ASTM D 2846; ASTM F 441; 
ASTM F 442; CSA B137.6 Copper or copper-alloy pipe 
ASTM B 42; ASTM B 302
Copper or copper-alloy tubing (Type K, WK, L, WL, M or WM) ASTM B 75; ASTM B 88; ASTM B 
251; ASTM B 447 Cross-linked polyethylene (PEX) plastic tubing 
ASTM F 876; ASTM F 877; CSA B137.5
Cross-linked polyethylene/aluminum/cross-linked polyethylene ASTM F 1281; ASTM F 2262; 
CAN/CSA B 137.1OM (PEX-AL-PEX) pipe

Cross-linked polyethylene/aluminum/high-density polyethylene ASTM F 1986 (PEX-AL-HDPE)
Ductile iron pipe 
AWWA C151/A21.51; AWWA C115/A21.15
Galvanized steel pipe 
ASTM A 53
Polyethylene/aluminum/polyethylene (PE-AL-PE) composite pipe ASTM F 1282
Polypropylene (PP) plastic pipe or tubing ASTM F 
2389; CSA B137.11
Stainless steel pipe (Type 304/304L) ASTM A 
312; ASTM A 778
Stainless steel pipe (Type 316/316L) ASTM A 
312; ASTM A 778


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Well thanks Mark but that's pretty much what I was saying. Look at the tables that go with the code. You posted what goes with the water service piping.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> Where is this thread located?


Just to keep things in context, it was on the Ridgid Forum.

https://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/m...g-experts/695162-cooper-flex-on-watwer-heater

Mark


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Well thanks Mark but that's pretty much what I was saying. Look at the tables that go with the code. You posted what goes with the water service piping.



Do you really not understand the Code?

The UPC is pretty clear as PVC is not included.

The IPC is a little harder to read for an apprentice but shouldn't be for a guy who teaches plumbing. I included the entire section so that it would be self explanatory and you still got it wrong. Here are the dumb down excerpts:

_Be constructed of those materials listed in Section *605.4* or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME Al 12.4.1._

_*605.4* Water distribution pipe. Water distribution pipe shall conform to NSF 61 and shall conform to one of the standards listed in Table 605.4. All hot water distribution pipe and tubing shall have a minimum pressure rating of 100 psi (690 kPa) at 180°F (82°C)._
*
​*_TABLE 605.4
WATER DISTRIBUTION PIPE_​
Mark


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

NHMaster why does Rick bother you so much that you talk behind his back here? At least man up and say it to him directly.


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## jnaas2 (Dec 6, 2012)

Ive been doing plumbing since 1980 and in this time I have run across one water heater that was a run away and if it wasn't for the t&p valve it would have blown. When I opened the door there was nothing but steam blowing out of it so yes it does happen


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

Can't use plastic here for discharge. Either copper or threaded but with no thread on the end. So some idiot can't cap it.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

To be fair to Rick, he never said water heater explosions never happen.

I've been at it since 73 and while I did not see it, I am aware of one at an elementary school that exploded. So it does happen but your chances of being hit by lightening is higher. There are over 85,000,000 housing units in the US. How many of those had a water heater exploded in 2013? In 2013, 23 people out of 318,900,00 people, die from lightening strikes.

Mark


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

panther said:


> I've have seen many water heaters where someone used a water heater flex on the t&p. I told a homeowner once that those are not acceptable for that. He got mad and told me to show him in the code book where you can't use a flex on the t&p. Sure enough, I couldn't find anything.


The reason a water heater flex is not legal for a T&P drain under your code is because it is annealed. In addition, most of them have washers inside which are smaller than 3/4" Id so it reduces the bore.

Mark


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> The installation in question


Is that a plastic female adapter on the T & P discharge?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

gear junkie said:


> NHMaster why does Rick bother you so much that you talk behind his back here? At least man up and say it to him directly.


I did


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> Do you really not understand the Code?
> 
> The UPC is pretty clear as PVC is not included.
> 
> ...


You're getting hung up on PVC which most inspectors will allow but the whole point here east not PVC or even flex lines as much as the notion that water heaters don't blow up and they do. They blow up all the time. It takes only a few minutes in google to pull up a whole lot of cases of water heaters blowing up. PVC isn't going to cause the heater to blow up due to restriction. It might blow off, or spray hot water all over hells creation but it won't restrict the outlet.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I took a look over at the Ridgid forum for the first time. At this time of my life I have a full head of hair, if I join that forum I don't think my head would be so full anymore. Mr NH I understand your frustrations. Now every state will have its do and don'ts for relief valve, but the flex is a def no no. Lol. We don't allow PVC for relief tubes, I'll approve CPVC with a metal thread adapter( even though Boston tells me no) or a Polypropylene homopolymer tube, obviously copper and brass, or stainless tube with no threads on end.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> You're getting hung up on PVC which most inspectors will allow but the whole point here east not PVC or even flex lines as much as the notion that water heaters don't blow up and they do. They blow up all the time. It takes only a few minutes in google to pull up a whole lot of cases of water heaters blowing up. PVC isn't going to cause the heater to blow up due to restriction. It might blow off, or spray hot water all over hells creation but it won't restrict the outlet.


I'm not hung up on PVC at all. You made the statement that it was Code approved for T&P relief drains under both codes and I said you were wrong. Now you say most inspectors will allow it and I say if plumbers are using it in your areas and inspectors allow it, I'm saying the areas you work are full of hacks.

By the way, I've never seen a water flex on a relief line cause a water heater to exploded either but it's still illegal in most jurisdictions.

Mark


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

plumbdrum said:


> I took a look over at the Ridgid forum for the first time. At this time of my life I have a full head of hair, if I join that forum I don't think my head would be so full anymore. Mr NH I understand your frustrations. Now every state will have its do and don'ts for relief valve, but the flex is a def no no. Lol. We don't allow PVC for relief tubes, I'll approve CPVC with a metal thread adapter( even though Boston tells me no) or a Polypropylene homopolymer tube, obviously copper and brass, or stainless tube with no threads on end.


As an expert witness, the use of a flex on water heater relief lines was always on my list of defects on a projects. I called every single one and still would have. Then one of the experts I was against talked the one of the Inspectors in to writing a letter saying it was approved method. Now I had to concede but my new battle was with building and safety. I fought with them for several years and then they amended their codes to allow it and I gave up the battle.

If you look around the country there are local jurisdictions that make no sense. Santa Monica wants a way to disconnect a relief line without cutting the drain lines. Las Vegas wants all copper pipes in the slab in plastic sleeves, NH says Maine and New Hampshire do not require water soluble flux, LA limits ABS to two floors and so on and so on.

Mark


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

*relief valve termination*

I read both the IPC and the UPC -- both say termination OK outside, providing certain conditions are in place to prevent public injuries. No so in cold climates, under a slow leak condition the discharge could freeze shut and 
then the bomb is again present ... 

http://inspdiy.blogspot.com/


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

In the old days were were allowed to terminate the T&P drain lines in the garage for heaters located in the garage. Now because so many people use their garages for storage they have to be run to the outside. In even earlier codes, T&Ps were not required if there was a pressure relief on the service riser. 

Mark


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

If we run the drain line to the outside, then we must use an air break between the P&T, and the drain line. If the drain line gets plugged for any reason, the heater can cause water damage, but it isn't an explosion hazard.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

jnaas2 said:


> Ive been doing plumbing since 1980 and in this time I have run across one water heater that was a run away and if it wasn't for the t&p valve it would have blown. When I opened the door there was nothing but steam blowing out of it so yes it does happen


Yes I had one blowing off like that in 1985 or so I ended up replacing the
100 gal commc, wtr/htr that was blowing off on hi temp.
by the way it only takes one to ruin your day and kill your liability Insurance


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