# Wtf, moen?



## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Saw an ad in the Blowes flyer. 

Moen Renzo pull out kitchen faucet. $78.00

Extensa at the supply house, my cost, $135.00

That Renzo is on their website, as well, for like $300.00

How are we supposed to compete? Better yet, how are we supposed to not look like thieving idiots to our customers?


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

RealLivePlumber said:


> How are we supposed to compete? Better yet, how are we supposed to not look like thieving idiots to our customers?


We cant compete on price anymore. I dont know about you, but i havent been able to in a long time. I tried to convince myself i could for a quite a while but reality says it isnt going to happen.

I no longer even try. We still sell a few faucets here and there, but most of the time i tell them to buy it themselves and we'll install it- priced out accordingly of course. 

And not to call me expecting a freebe when it takes a chit.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Also, these manufacturers have made it real hard to provide any kind of warranty with the junk azz chit they are putting on the market today. Even if i could get full boat list it isn't worth it.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

RealLivePlumber said:


> ...How are we supposed to compete? Better yet, how are we supposed to not look like thieving idiots to our customers?



Quite simple actually. Sell you service at the price your business requires to stay in business. Charge a rate that allows you to provide the fixtures at cost. If the customer takes the Lowe's option then you still make the money for your expertise.

Expert services and quality installation by licensed plumbers is on back order at the home centers. Sell what they don't have (your service) and stop trying to compete with billion dollar retail giants in a game they have already won.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Colgar said:


> Also, these manufacturers have made it real hard to provide any kind of warranty with the junk azz chit they are putting on the market today. Even if i could get full boat list it isn't worth it.


 Personally, if it's going to be a Delta, Moen, Price Pfister or American Standard product, I'd just as soon have the customer or GC buy the product and absolve myself of the inevitable warranty issue -- That's a mark-up I don't need to lose in lost billable hours down the road doing warranty work.

If it's a Kohler, Hans or Fredrich Grohe, Perrin & Rowe, Toto, Dornbracht or similar higher end fixture, then I have no problem providing it, marking it up 20% and standing behind it.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

First of all, those aren't the same faucets you'd buy from your local supply house. There's a lot more plastic in them for one. I try and explain this to customers and let them decide. I tell them if they supply it, no matter what the manufacturer offers, I will not warranty the fixture at all. Any problems that might arise will be repaired at full cost. If I supply a fixture that is covered under a manufacturers warranty, I'll honor it. That makes sense to some but not all.





Paul


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Two things, 

I once installed a price fister junk faucet. I explained it all to the customer, its junk, go get something else. I showed him the cheap plastic pop up assy, next to a Wolverine 17 ga. He insisted that I install it. I explained about no warranty, you pay me again if there is a problem. 

As soon as it was installed, before I left, he started complaining about the handles are wobbly. On and on. He calls price fister, they send new handles. He plays with it himself, then the pop up leaks, ( a month later) and he calls and tells me the nut is split, and laying on the base of the cabinet. I go and install a new WB 17 ga pop up, and put the new handles on. Still wobbly. Price fister tells him the plumber must be screwing it up. So, he doesnt pay the bill, and I lose a customer. So all that talk about explaining it to the customer, yadda yadda, means jack shiot. They will still be pissed AT YOU. 

Now, here is my concern with this Moen deal. I could care less about trying to compete with a home center. I guess that is not what I meant in my original post. Picture this senario. You sell and install a moen extensa. You charge say $185.00 for the faucet, plus labor. A fair and reasonable mark up. The customer did not shop the home center. They asked you for a faucet, and you provided it, and installed it. Come Sunday morning, the customer is sitting at his kitchen table, drinking coffee, perusing the Sunday paper. Out comes the blowes full color advertisement. There, right in front of him, is a picture of a faucet that looks almost exactly like the one you just sold him, that is right in front of him, in all its gleaming glory. For over a hundred bucks less. You think that he dont feel like he just got effed. You think he will ever call you again? You think he aint gonna tell everyone he knows what that no good plumber did to him. Think again, he will. 

My suppliers answer to this question today was that you have to educate the consumer, tell them it is a better faucet, on and on. I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO DO THAT. I am not a natural born salesman. I am uncomfortable with it. I want to provide my customers with the best products, at a reasonable price. But you cant tell me that what I described above will not happen.

Only thing I can think of to do is 1, let them get their own faucet, and be prepared to warranty it, or risk losing customers. or 2, stock and sell Gerber. (none of the supply houses around here stock the full faucet line. But, they now have some nice stuff, and you dont see it in a blowes ad.


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## skw83 (Feb 19, 2009)

I will install the homeowners faucet, but they usually ***** when they get the bill because I charge them 10-15 bucks a piece for the supply nuts that I have to provide. I always bring a good brass pop up assembly and try to show the people why their faucet was cheaper than the one I would have provided.:thumbup:


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## suzie (Sep 1, 2010)

Had that happen to me today except on toilets customer has business and home replacements they want of course they hadnd me the prices they've found on-line. I can only beat on one model. Otherwise going thru wholesale shop makes me look way out of line....crapulous


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

A lot of people like the big box experience.....they sell a faucet cheap but get you elswhere to make that 35% net. Water heaters near cost but you will need something else and that will help the bottom line.....plus where I'm at they hire a plumber 65 minutes away from another state to install at an amazingly low rate......toilet install $97......add up the gas and time and its a head banger. Somehow there is a way to be on their side (the customer) during this time of infidelity......and get a few extra bucks.


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## pipe doc (Dec 26, 2010)

rocksteady said:


> First of all, those aren't the same faucets you'd buy from your local supply house. There's a lot more plastic in them for one. I try and explain this to customers and let them decide. I tell them if they supply it, no matter what the manufacturer offers, I will not warranty the fixture at all. Any problems that might arise will be repaired at full cost. If I supply a fixture that is covered under a manufacturers warranty, I'll honor it. That makes sense to some but not all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We do the same and just ordered WB for the first time this week it seams great. Is it?


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## Plumber3653 (May 5, 2010)

If you ordered WB (Wolverine Brass) for the first time, keep the number of your local rep. handy. You'll need to call him/her frequently once you have made some installs. Some of their products have great features, some need to be melted down and recycled as paper weights. Just my opinion.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

rocksteady said:


> First of all, those aren't the same faucets you'd buy from your local supply house.


 That's actually a myth, an Urban Legend if you will.

I've bought the same fixtures from Big Box stores and Plumbing Supply houses all across the country while doing work for Habitat for Humanity and doing Katrina relief work throughout the Gulf Coast.

I assure you, they all roll off of the same assembly lines -- The only difference is in how they're packaged -- We can buy rough-in valve packages or trim packages -- But it's still the same rough-in body or trim pieces sold in the complete kits at the Big Box stores.

The prices are lower at the Big Box stores because they buy in a volume significant enough that they can dictate their purchase price.

You get 30 to 40% off of "list price" from your wholesaler. Ever ask yourself what Wholesalers "Volume Purchase" discount is? 

Well, it's significantly lower than the Big Box stores purchase price because they don't buy in the volume that the Big Box stores buy in.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

rocksteady said:


> First of all, those aren't the same faucets you'd buy from your local supply house. There's a lot more plastic in them for one.
> Paul





Widdershins said:


> That's actually a myth, an Urban Legend if you will.
> 
> I've bought the same fixtures from Big Box stores and Plumbing Supply houses all across the country while doing work for Habitat for Humanity and doing Katrina relief work throughout the Gulf Coast.
> 
> ...


Aaahem....

Quote From Moen FAQ Page....

Do all Moen products consist of one standard of quality regardless of whether the distributor is a retail or wholesale supplier?

Moen's production line does not differentiate between wholesale and retail models. There is only one grade of brass, only one grade of cartridge and only one grade of warranty coverage–the best. *While the numbering system for Moen's wholesale distributors and retail distributors may vary and subtle installation and trim differences may exist. These may include, but are not limited to, packaging, threaded or slip-fit style tub spouts and metallic or non-metallic drain assemblies.* The quality and limited lifetime warranty against leaks, drips, materials, and workmanship remain the same for all of our products. http://www.moen.com/consumer-support/faq

I'd say RockSteady is correct and this is not an Urban Myth....:whistling2:


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Aaahem....
> 
> Quote From Moen FAQ Page....
> 
> ...


You also have to look at the wording it says one grade of brass but it doesn't say the amount of brass used in the fixtures are the same.


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## petebee50 (Jan 16, 2011)

We have the same problem with the home stores here in Montgomery,al. But theres only oone company foolish enough to do installs for them.So we let them, they're losing their a$$... oh well. We will install a customer supplied fixture if they ant ,but as someone earlier said they get no warranty and all callbacks for the item start with a $99.00 service call which doesn't include any work. When I sell a fixture I explain we only sell high end products which carrys a competetive warranty or they can provide their own product with no warranty. Our faucets are Wolverine brass and toilets are Toto gmax or Gerber hp series.


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## petebee50 (Jan 16, 2011)

I don't doubt the home stoes get a discount for bulk buying but, try buying a delta faucet from a reputle supply house then the same model from the home store...........take one in each hand then tell me about rban legends.


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## Plumber3653 (May 5, 2010)

A good example of how different the faucets are from Big Box stores and supply houses is this. The serial number for Amer. Stand. faucets tells the plumbing supply houses if it was manufactured for wholesalers or for the big box stores. The supply houses cannot even order most replacement parts based on that serial number. I have been told directly by the manufacturers of Moen, AS and Delta that separate product lines are developed for DIY retail and Kohler reps indicate that items that rate low on QA testing ( ie: deformities in toilet casting) are sent to DIY outlets at discount. 
The obvious example is to just look at the valve bodies and see some are IPS and supply houses carry sweat connections and also the plastic parts in place of metal. A few years ago a customer needed a Kohler replacement part. I called to order it and Kohler said 4-6 weeks, $225. The customer flipped out, called Kohler himself on the spot and they told him 3-5 business days and $95. Wonder what the difference was in THAT product.lol


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

NO WAY are they the same !! Too many times we have talked to reps and they all repeat the same thing , " The big box will mass sell our products but need it cheapened up because they have huge advertising costs were the local wholesalers do not " 

My faucets come with a great metal pop up ,,,, Blowes & Cheapo ,, plastic JUNK ! God ,,this subject pisses me off !


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## Eric (Jan 10, 2011)

It's not only faucets, garbage disposals as well. I did a small questionare for ISE.. Became a listed installer on their site. Customer bought a disposal on their own from cheapo. One of the new Evolution models.

As a listed installer, I had a product line brochure with all warranties and junk on it. The one they got wasn't even in my brochure completely different warranty than the ones I had in the brochure.


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## rrapidron (Jan 16, 2011)

I have the customers supply their own faucets-giving them my recomendations on the brand to buy according to how much they are going to spend on said faucet.
Quote them my price to install it plus any parts I might need such as stops. supply lines ect.
I warrant the installation for one year but not the parts that they supplied.
If I have to come back for any reason besides a screw up on installation it costs them 75.00 for the trip


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## Ashleymc (Nov 14, 2009)

I dont "compete" with anyone..I charge what I charge TO MAKE PROFIT!
If someone questions my bill and exclaims "Wow thats expensive"
I respond "Yeah what aint?"


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