# What to do with toilet



## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

What can I do to fix this tailpiece, other than opening the wall? 
Apparently this was installed like this many years ago and worked fine. Recently the diaphragm went bad so I replaced it and now I can't get the vacuum breaker to stop leaking( put a new one in) also one of the 45s in th tailpiece also....

I am going now to pickup the longer v breaker for this royal 1.6, bit I wish I could fix that tailpiece for them w out opening the wall


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

Order an offset vacuum breaker tube.

http://www.sloanvalve.com/Specifications/Vacuum_Breakers_and_Flush_Connections.pdf


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Gotta open the wall..... You wont be able to buy a short tube with that much offset.

Nobody cares that this was sent from my droid using. Plumbing Zone


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## abudgetplumb (Aug 22, 2011)

i didn't know they even had those


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Oooohhh I like that, I can make that work. - thanks


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## skitian (Apr 5, 2011)

It would look like crap but you could offset the supply before it goes into the stop, just paint it chrome, lol.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

That's redonkulous that even flew when it was first installed.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

I assume the offset is what caused the leaks? Although why do the regular ones go bad after some time...they lose their elasticity?


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

voltatab said:


> What can I do to fix this tailpiece, other than opening the wall?
> Apparently this was installed like this many years ago and worked fine. Recently the diaphragm went bad so I replaced it and now I can't get the vacuum breaker to stop leaking( put a new one in) also one of the 45s in the tailpiece also....
> 
> I am going now to pickup the longer v breaker for this royal 1.6, bit I wish I could fix that tailpiece for them w out opening the wall


That Sloan offset hroark2112 posted a link to looks pretty sweet, I'll have to remember that. Unfortunately, it isn't going to help you out in this case -- The top of the tail-piece is flanged and the offset is too low which makes it too long for your application.

The vacuum breaker leak is probably an easy fix -- You can buy a new vacuum breaker that should come with a new gasket, nut and friction washer.

As for the offset -- Both Lowes and Wolverine Brass sell a very, very sticky orange rubber slip-joint washer that should seal that right up. If it were me, I'd also spring for 1-1/2" brass friction washers as well -- They may come in handy if the leak migrates to the spud.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

You can fix it without opening the wall.







Move the toilet to the left a tad.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

voltatab said:


> I assume the offset is what caused the leaks? Although why do the regular ones go bad after some time...they lose their elasticity?


 They usually ship with flat rubber washers and no brass friction washers.

The rubber decays from age, chlorine or hard water and starts to drip/weep -- The temptation is to try and snug it up. Bad idea. Snugging it up usually tears the deteriorated rubber washer and makes the leak worse.

I never reuse rubber slip joint washers -- I always replace them and use a brass friction washer and a thick silicone based Plumbers grease to reassemble.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

I already put in a new breaker kit, and it still leaked.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

OK. On a more serious note.

It worked fine for a long time. Granted, it ain't perfect. 

For go the slip nut and washer. Solder the trap offsets to the tailpiece. It will be plent stiff and won't leak. Get some 17 Ga., though. Forget that flimsy 22 ga. Crap.

Done.

If you're careful, you can still put the nut on the threads after you solder it up, for
Appearance sake. Just remember to put it on before you solder it.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Never thought to solder that together -thanks

What are you referring to about 17ga and 22ga?


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## gladerunner (Jan 24, 2009)

how about an offset flange. Move the bowl


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

voltatab said:


> Never thought to solder that together -thanks
> 
> What are you referring to about 17ga and 22ga?



the chrome plated brass tubular comes in different thicknesses. the lower the gauge the thicker the brass. the 17 is better.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Reeeaaally, never knew that, thanks, I don't do too much commercial stuff.
I was just putting this thing back together and the damn spud came out. I hate this toilet. 

So come tomorrow I will have rebuilt everything on it, jeeze.
Last thing, what's the deal with the shutoff- Is supposed to be partially open to control flow, or fully open? How does that effect the diaphragms operation, if at all?


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

What I have been seeing lately is that they turn the supply stop where it points up or down depending if the grab bars are in the way. Then they put a chrome 90º onto the stop then the flush valve into the 90º It bought them some space where they did not have to use and offset tailpeice.


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## HOMER (Jun 5, 2011)

turn off water and reposition adjustable tailpiece(Union nut connection to angle stop)
have the union nut loose at the adjustable tailpiece while positioning the V/B.
careful not to pinch that "O" ring.
add a little silicone based lube.

did you put the cardboard looking washer between V/B rubber and bottom of flush valve body ?

try using steel wool to clean bottom surface of valve body.(where it connects to V/B)

its easy to pinch the V/B , careful installing it.


You need to change the spud assembly.

probably 2"x1½"
the connection from the V/B tailpiece to the 
spud requires a plastic friction ring(think it's red)on top of the slip washer.

as SR suggested, you can offset the angle stop with a chrome 90°.
can also change the length of the adjustable tailpiece.
the standard size is 2-1/16", also available 4-1/16 and 5-/16"
you'll need special wrench to change adjustable tailpiece.


if it worked leak free installed as shown,you should be able to get it back that way.


looks like the angle stop is not level, could you shorten the vacuum breaker tailpiece and set the stop to level ? or is it already cut to it's shortest length ?


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I thought you could purchase a shorter nipple between the flushometer and stop


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

You can but it still would be a tight fit.

The water needs to be move, IMO

If the original plumber would have payed attention to the details on the flushometer kit finding parts wouldn't be an issue...


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## HOMER (Jun 5, 2011)

voltatab said:


> Reeeaaally, never knew that, thanks, I don't do too much commercial stuff.
> I was just putting this thing back together and the damn spud came out. I hate this toilet.
> 
> So come tomorrow I will have rebuilt everything on it, jeeze.
> Last thing, what's the deal with the shutoff- Is supposed to be partially open to control flow, or fully open? How does that effect the diaphragms operation, if at all?


that depends on the diaphragm ass'y you install.
if you get one rated for water saving it will probably need to be on full.
if you get the 3.5 gal diaphragm you'll need to adjust it down to produce a decent flush.
the type of toilet also has a determining factor in this.
Ive found on newer toilets that they splash up and out of the bowl when flushed...if you turn the water down too much,it won't flush right.
also the flush valve itself won't work correctly with the wrong diaphragm.
I bring both and use the one that produces the best results.
(I hope your changing the handle or the kit for the handle so that does not become a callback)


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Richard Hilliard said:


> I thought you could purchase a shorter nipple between the flushometer and stop


 You can, but they're a bugger to get out.

I actually sheared off the usable part of the removal tool the last time I tried it.

Just eyeballing it from the photo, even a close nipple isn't going to do the trick.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Widdershins said:


> You can, but they're a bugger to get out.
> 
> I actually sheared off the usable part of the removal tool the last time I tried it.
> 
> Just eyeballing it from the photo, even a close nipple isn't going to do the trick.


They few I've done have been newer, came out quick and easy..

I would imagine one that has been in service for a while would be a tough one for sure.


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## HOMER (Jun 5, 2011)

Widdershins said:


> You can, but they're a bugger to get out.
> 
> I actually sheared off the usable part of the removal tool the last time I tried it.
> 
> Just eyeballing it from the photo, even a close nipple isn't going to do the trick.


a challenge to back up the valve body without stripping the chrome off

I use 1" copper on vise through valve body.

valve body not too stable doing it this way but it's worked the few time Ive had to remove them


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

HOMER said:


> a challenge to back up the valve body without stripping the chrome off
> 
> I use 1" copper on vise through valve body.
> 
> valve body not too stable doing it this way but it's worked the few time Ive had to remove them


A chain vice locked down with the nipple facing the business end of vice won't give it any wiggle room...


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Plumberman said:


> A chain vice locked down with the nipple facing the business end of vice won't give it any wiggle room...


 I stripped out all of the innards and ran a 3 or 4 foot piece of iron pipe through the center to backstop it.

Still sheared off the business end of my brand new 'Barbell' spud wrench.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Make sure you have the right diaphragm installed for the bowl you have. You dial up the stop enough to give a proper flush with out splashing out of the bowl.

The instructions tell you not to have the supply turned up where it exceeds the flow of the fixture. This way if the valve fails and continuously flushes the fixture must be able to handle it. Here is a link to the instructions. http://www.sloanvalve.com/Installation_Guides/0816312.pdf


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Widdershins said:


> I stripped out all of the innards and ran a 3 or 4 foot piece of iron pipe through the center to backstop it.
> 
> Still sheared off the business end of my brand new 'Barbell' spud wrench.


Some times you can't hit it like you live!

Lol


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Here is the link to the different length tailpieces for the supply. http://www.sloanvalve.com/Maintenance_Guides/Tail_Piece.pdf


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Plumberman said:


> Some times you can't hit it like you live!
> 
> Lol


 I actually considered for a minute (after throwing an epic temper tantrum) that it was a reverse thread and that I was tightening it.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Widdershins said:


> I actually considered for a minute (after throwing an epic temper tantrum) that it was a reverse thread and that I was tightening it.


Been there before...


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Let's see if I can address the advice and questions helping me out here. 

I definitely did try and adjust the flushometer as close as possible to the stop (practically nut to nut ) and put a straight tailpiece on, but it was just too crooked. 
The way it is pictured, the adjustable tailpiece is at it's very end and I think I had already loosened some of the nuts when I took the pic so it looks a little more uneven than when tightened up 
I do use the friction washer when installing the V/B and am careful to make sure it was seated properly all the way around before I snugged it in. It still leaked only when it stopped flushing. I found that changing it to the longer style breaker fixed that (don't k ow why)
I basically had to replace the rubber washers and friction rings on the 45s too caused everything moved when taking this apart and leaked
The spud leaked after all the other leaks were fixed so I'll be back to do that guy also. 
I did NOT change out the handle as someone mentioned. Never occurred to me but good to know
I used the 1.6 diaphragm cause it's what I read on the toilet, and I currently adjust the stops to a pressure that's seems normal to the flush. But I found that some flushed longer than others in the past, so I would increase the pressure and it would stop running so much. (again I don't know why)

I think the chrome 90 may be a good idea to make a hacked toilet a little less hacked. 

The problem for me is that I've learned trial and error what stops some leaks on these flush valves but didn't learn properly HOW they operate, so as to be able to help me when troubleshooting. 

Reading all this gives me more of an understanding as to how they should operate, and why they don't sometimes


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

voltatab said:


> I think the chrome 90 may be a good idea to make a hacked toilet a little less hacked.


I will take a picture of the urinal right up the road from me that I seen this done. Also seen a few water closets done this way. First time I saw it I was like what a hack. But after seeing it a few times it does not look that bad.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Well, I put in the spud on this morning and now the VB leaks, not while flushing, but at the end of the flush, back through the tailpiece's air openings or slots or whatever those are. - wtf?


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

voltatab said:


> Well, I put in the spud on this morning and now the VB leaks, not while flushing, but at the end of the flush, back through the tailpiece's air openings or slots or whatever those are. - wtf?


 
Did it leak when you had the straight vacuum breaker in?


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

It was fine with long breaker in, until I changed out the diaphragm, then that issue came up. So I switched out with a new breaker (the shorter one) and it still leaked.now I replace it again back to the longer one, and it's still leaking. I just don't know why's causing this issue.
Is it possible there's not enough distance From the flushometer to the toilet, and is causing a bit of a back flow? But then why wouldn't it do that during it's flush, and only at the end when stopping?


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

Sounds like a nightmare, Did it leak when you tried a straight tube? I'm thinking the offset can be causing an issue. When the water stops after flushing and there's a back pressure issue your going to see the water come from the V/B.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

Also is it a new toilet?


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

I couldn't get it to tighten up properly cause of the angle with the straight tube. 

I'm about ready to just tell him that opening the wall is the only appropriate action, but I don't want to just stick him with the issue, since it did operate before for quite some time. 

I think I. May try that chrome 90


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Nope


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

Is the problem the way the offset looks or the V/B issue? What are you trying to accomplish for the customer?


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Originally it was the offset look, but now it's just stopping the leak. This is what happens when I try to be nice and mess with stuff


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

So you tried to fix the offset for them and the vacuum breaker started leaking..
That sucks!! Have you tried to adjust the pressure at the control valve to see if the V/B stops leaking?


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Widdershins said:


> That Sloan offset hroark2112 posted a link to looks pretty sweet, I'll have to remember that. Unfortunately, it isn't going to help you out in this case -- The top of the tail-piece is flanged and the offset is too low which makes it too long for your application.
> 
> The vacuum breaker leak is probably an easy fix -- You can buy a new vacuum breaker that should come with a new gasket, nut and friction washer.
> 
> As for the offset -- Both Lowes and Wolverine Brass sell a very, very sticky orange rubber slip-joint washer that should seal that right up. If it were me, I'd also spring for 1-1/2" brass friction washers as well -- They may come in handy if the leak migrates to the spud.


*Or use greased lamp wick doubled and wound the way the nut tightens*.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

I tried to increase and decease pressure, it does not deem to matter it siphons out the same. 

The threads aren't leaking, all the fittings are good now, just that damn breaker through what i describe as "air vents" in the tailpiece after the flush cycle


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

voltatab said:


> I tried to increase and decease pressure, it does not deem to matter it siphons out the same. I was saying when you increase or decrease pressure does it affect your leaking Vacuum breaker?
> 
> The threads aren't leaking, all the fittings are good now, just that damn breaker through what i describe as "air vents" in the tailpiece after the flush cycle


 
...


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

I guess not all the fittings then...


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Here is the urinal with the chroma 90º but I doubt this will help. If I can remember where I seen the water closet they had to plumb it with the 90 but they used a different style stop so they where able to get the supply to fit with out using the offset down tube.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

voltatab said:


> I tried to increase and decease pressure, it does not deem to matter it siphons out the same.
> 
> The threads aren't leaking, all the fittings are good now, just that damn breaker through what i describe as "air vents" in the tailpiece after the flush cycle


Make sure the inside of the vacuum breaker tube is clean. If it's limed up bad the rubber can't close off the holes.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Yeah it's brand new...I'm out of ideas and I dont know why it worked before without leaks. 

The worst part is this was a favor- at cost, to a restoration guy who throws me work a bunch. So didn't want to tell him that I was gonna open the wall but at this point I don't want to have a call back and look stupid. 

I read a code that stated that tailpieces have to be a minimum of 6" in length. I imagine maybe that's because of backflow that comes up? Just a guess.


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## HOMER (Jun 5, 2011)

Some more stupid questions for you

is the plastic funnel installed correctly inside the rubber ?

is the vacuum breaker replacement you are using the same as what you removed ?

have you tried re-using old vacuum breaker ?

there is more than one style of Vacuum breaker ass'ys for Sloan

May the force be with you


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

I never use the paper friction ring they supply. I just snug the nut on the vacuum breaker until it squeaks just a little. Not crazy tight.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Tried to reuse old, didn't work anymore

Plastic funnel def in place correctly

Tried two types of VBs both leak


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## ap plumbing (Nov 9, 2010)

voltatab said:


> Tried to reuse old, didn't work anymore
> 
> Plastic funnel def in place correctly
> 
> Tried two types of VBs both leak


 May be you might have the wrong diaphram.. put the old one to see what happens...Do you have a 1.6gpm or maybe it calls for a 3.5gpm or maybe u have a urinal diaphram in there..I don't understand those sloan valves too. try alot of teflon on the vacuum breaker lol


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

The old one looks the same, has the same colored pin in the middle-don't know what you call it, but I was once told that's what determines the 1.6 or not...

The old one just ran and ran but I guess it was in just the right spot cause she won't stop spitting up. I'll call Sloan today to see if they got any last advice before I cut open th wall

Thanks for the opinions


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

voltatab said:


> I'll call Sloan today to see if they got any last advice before I cut open th wall
> 
> Thanks for the opinions


 
I'm curious to know if Sloan recommends a minimum distance from the V/B to an offset.. Lets us know... 6in is what a atmospheric type vacuum breaker is usually recommended to be installed at above the flood level rim of a fixture..


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

voltatab said:


> Plastic funnel def in place correctly


 I don't want to harp on this too much, but you're sure you properly recessed the "plastic funnel" into the black rubber thingie?

I've gone in a number of times over the years to replace WC's only to find the tailpiece wrapped in teflon, kite string, yarn and or oakum because the installer didn't realize he or she had to manually insert the "plastic funnel" into the black thingie.


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## suzie (Sep 1, 2010)

I can't believe that went in that way originally either dumb plumber measure twice maybe even three times then cut or plumb. Frankly I have never seen anything close to that...I learn something everyday about plumbing


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Yeah I'm sure, i always insert that funnel into the breaker and make sure it's in all the way around. Then friction ring. No teflon or anything else. 

Sloan said that because it does not leak while it's flushing, but only when it stops, it's a sign that it is working properly. He said it is doing it's job by not letting backwater funnel up. Then he said that the reason it's coming back up after the flush "may or may not be the offset" but more probable a blockage in the porcelain, which is restricting flow. So when it stops forcing water down, the remainder backs up. 

Now, I checked the offset, and inside the spud and porcelain, I don't see anything in there that would restrict water. But I'll be back out soon enough to mess with it or open the wall. I'm done monkeying with this!!


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Take a piece of coathanger wire and make sure the holes under the rim are all open also make sure the siphon jet isn't obstructed.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Well it turned out there was a piece of rough porcelain inside that broke off I guess and was stuck in the main jet. You could not see it when viewing with just a mirror, but once I shined a light in I saw it. Getting it out was such a pain! It kept slipping back in the jet. It wasnt even obstructing the jet enough to visually notice a difference in flush before and after. Finally I opened the stop all the way and flushed till the piece got wedged in the jet. I was then able to break the piece apart to let it through. 

Thanks guys


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Here is some uncommen installs...


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

SewerRatz said:


> Here is some uncommen installs...


The seconde pick, It would take a pretty flexible person to flush that with Their foot. I wonder what they were thinking when they did the rough-in

hack 1: were should I put the stubout at? 
Hack 2: (points to wall) put it up here.
hack 1: won't that be to high?
Hack 2: Naaaaa we do it like that all the time.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

The first pic having the pipe come 6" off the wall then having a 8" supply piece to the flush valve really made it look odd to me. And the second pic is an extra low water closet.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

SewerRatz said:


> The first pic having the pipe come 6" off the wall then having a 8" supply piece to the flush valve really made it look odd to me. And the second pic is an extra low water closet.


Were those 2 wc's in the same restroom/ building?


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Mississippiplum said:


> Were those 2 wc's in the same restroom/ building?


 Yes they where both in the men's room of a Wendy's


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

SewerRatz said:


> Yes they where both in the men's room of a Wendy's


Well I guess it could be worst


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Jesus, there must of been a change of plans after the rough in


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## Dun' Right (Sep 27, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> You can, but they're a bugger to get out.
> 
> I actually sheared off the usable part of the removal tool the last time I tried it.
> 
> Just eyeballing it from the photo, even a close nipple isn't going to do the trick.


To get the nipple out of the side of the sloan valve.....

I use a chisel (1" I think..) and a pair of channel locks on the part of the chisel sticking out. Sometimes it ruins the chisel, and bends it, but I have yet to not get one out using this method. There are two little grooves on the inside that the chisel fits into so you can spin it. 

As for the offset......

I've seen people put a chrome 90 installed at a 45, nipple (however much you have to offset depends on the length, usually a close nipple works), then a chrome 45 with a close nipple on top. You can screw your shutoff onto it, and then just have a straight tailpiece going down into the toilet. You may need an extended tailpiece when it's done with to make up for the extra height you added. 

Chrome parts are expensive as hell, but so is opening the wall. 

Hope this helps.


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## Dun' Right (Sep 27, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> Here is some uncommen installs...


I see people using offsets (as in the top photo) far too often. All you gotta do is shut the water off, take the stop off, put in a coupling and extend the pipe out to meet the new toilet distance from the wall. 

Not only does it look like crap, it's another place for it to leak. Esp when people flush those things by kicking them. (very common in commerical RR's).

Just another way people half ass things. 


As for the second photo, the only time I've seen them roughed in that high, was in a hospital. They had bed pan washers installed between the toilet and the valve. They decided to take out the bed pan washers, so we just bought a new x-long tail piece. 

Another thing that really pisses me off, is when I see channel lock scars all over the valve, because the prev. plumber was too lazy to use a smooth jaw wrench. 

I guess some people aren't as anal as me. haha


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

When I need to offset I just put a fernco or piece of radiator hose on the tail pipe, makes it easy. :laughing:


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## Dun' Right (Sep 27, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> When I need to offset I just put a fernco or piece of radiator hose on the tail pipe, makes it easy. :laughing:



Believe it or not, I've seen it. :blink:


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Dun' Right said:


> Believe it or not, I've seen it. :blink:


I believe it lol, ive seen similar stuff


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## Plumb Bob (Mar 9, 2011)

RealLivePlumber said:


> You can fix it without opening the wall.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


or you could rotate the front of the toilet from 6 o'clock position to 5 o'clock then you would have a straight shot, oh wait then the toilet woud be crooked, you better open the wall.:whistling2:


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