# Time bomb type-m



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Over the last several years I have noticed in my area that many houses had been piped with type-m copper. In many cases the copper seems to be thin and weak. 

Most of the time the this discovery was involved with the water heater so I associated it with the heating stress, or something along that line. 

Now it seems that I have been getting calls, pinholes in the main supply after the valve. Had one last night, three feet of copper paper thin, and a brass ball valve ready to let go. Valve was leaking through.

Here is what I am thinking, but want others input. 

Type-m is to thin, and should not be used. Never should have been approved.

Brass valves less than 30 years old, are poor quality foreign junk, for the most part.

New construction homes are built with the cheapest products possible. Mostly. At least in my area.


----------



## ianclapham (Jan 10, 2011)

I do little plumbing myself nowadays but I have noticed the quality of all parts very poor, nothing is British made now it's all east Asia made, it's a cost thing at the initial build and if something fails years down the line due to premature wear and tear then the construction company can walk away passing the buck, good thing is more work to come but the warranty issue is very concerning and getting costly.


----------



## ranman (Jan 24, 2010)

people never ask you to install the best quality.

they ask how much much.

type M is all that got used in Michigan, when the cheep is allowed the cheep is used.


----------



## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot more of it considering the recent spike in copper prices.


----------



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*type m is ok*

their is really nothign wrong with type m..

YES...L is better, but is used for more commercial situations...

we have used it since forever and never had much
trouble with it at all...

if your home is properly grounded it seems to last for 40 years around here and more....


I am pretty sure its a safe bet that it will outlast almost all of the pex plumbing too....


----------



## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> their is really nothign wrong with type m..
> 
> YES...L is better, but is used for more commercial situations...
> 
> ...


 
I'll take the over on this thread.

A MINIMUM of 65 replies.

Any takers.:whistling2::laughing:


----------



## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

Code in california says we have to use type L but im sure most of the hacks use type m for their repipes


----------



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*what does it all mean...*



PLUMB TIME said:


> I'll take the over on this thread.
> 
> A MINIMUM of 65 replies.
> 
> Any takers.:whistling2::laughing:


 
hey now... I just thought I would stir up the pot...

but honestly, we have used M since 1950 and its really never been a problem....


----------



## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

Indie said:


> Over the last several years I have noticed in my area that many houses had been piped with type-m copper. In many cases the copper seems to be thin and weak.
> 
> Most of the time the this discovery was involved with the water heater so I associated it with the heating stress, or something along that line.
> 
> ...


 
When using copper I always use L for domestic water and M for heating applications as most do around here. i haven't noticed many problems with newer M pipe compared with older and we're into our third week of non- stop freeze up calls and it all types of pipe seem to be freezing- L,M,PEX.


----------



## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> their is really nothign wrong with type m..
> 
> YES...L is better, but is used for more commercial situations...
> 
> ...


"M" has also been used around here for years and the only times I have seen pinholes in copper is on 1/8" ice maker lines and what I am going to refer to as electrolysis. 

If you are getting pinholes on "M' it just going to take a little longer for them to show up in "L".


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

To elaborate.

I have noticed a difference in the homes that are less than 30 years old. The house I went to last night is 25 years old. In my area there are it seems, more problems these "Younger homes" than the older homes. 

Since, I was not thinking about plumbing in the mid 80's I can't tell you what the quality of products was like on install. What I can say is, in my experience the 80's seemed to be the beginning of a severe downward trend in quality of builds.

I say that based on my own personal experience, and the lack of quality I see in the homes I service. 


Now as for the copper lasting longer than pex pipe, I'll take a bet on that. I bet the pex outlasts the copper by a couple of lifetimes. Now the brass fittings, that's a whole different issue. 

Moral of the story.

Chinese and Taiwanese brass, and copper are just not that good.


----------



## bigdaddyrob (May 14, 2009)

@ indie - lol. I was just getting ready say that. Lol. I think the pex may outlast everything... But the connections is another story.

Never had any issues running M - but I have come across pieces I felt were more frail then others. But seeing as I can't seem to buy a fitting that feels like there is any type of inner wall, they should go well together...


----------



## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

PLUMB TIME said:


> I'll take the over on this thread.
> 
> A MINIMUM of 65 replies.
> 
> Any takers.:whistling2::laughing:


Over how long of a timeline? I might take you on that...


----------



## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

I did tons of new construction plumbing and I love it. Sadly though, new construction is a speed game. Hurry, hurry, hurry. Fast, fast, fast. Bang it out, slam it out, get it done.....

The constant pressure to do a job cheaper and faster has forced a lot of plumbing contractors to go with cheaper and faster materials as well as constant pressure on their employees to hurry.

Where I'm from, type M has been used extensively in residential new construction for years while type L is seen in commercial applications. In some places, this isn't too much of a problem, but in others the pin holes reveal themselves in as little as five years.

Pex is a good choice for areas with water that is hostile to copper. Add to this the fact that PEX can be installed a lot faster and is less expensive than copper and you'll see why it is nearly standard in new construction.

Yes, I would say the quality of parts and materials has been in a steady decline as well. I despise working with Turkish or Chinese gas pipe in particular. Hold a Ward fitting side by side with it's imported counterpart and you'll see what I mean. The imported fittings are thin walled and poorly made. The imported pipe seems "spongy", almost like it was made from compacted SOS pads, while the Ward pipe cuts clean, sharp threads without tearing the steel.

Same deal with brass ball valves, T&P valves, PRV's, etc. Thin and cheaply made.....


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

No argument here on the Domestic vs. Import debate. In general, I can not see a point where import manufacturing will reach the standards set by the country that sets the standard.

As far as M copper is concerned, anything that weakens it will weaken type L and even K. It just takes longer.

We use type M as a rule inside homes.


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Indie said:


> Over the last several years I have noticed in my area that many houses had been piped with type-m copper. In many cases the copper seems to be thin and weak.
> 
> Most of the time the this discovery was involved with the water heater so I associated it with the heating stress, or something along that line.
> 
> ...


Type L is about 50% thicker than Type M. If the conditions are such that Type M leaks eventually Type L would leak as well. If a copper water system is properly installed it will not leak. One of the secrets to copper or any other materials is how and where it is installed. With proper conditions, once the patina is built up in the pipe copper it should give you many years of service.

Mark


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

tungsten plumb said:


> Code in california says we have to use type L but im sure most of the hacks use type m for their repipes


You're misreading the Code:

604.2 Copper tube for water piping shall have a weight of not
less than Type​​​​L.​
Exception: Type M copper tubing shall be permitted to be used
for water piping when piping is above ground in, or on, a building​or underground outside of structures.
 

Mark


----------



## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> You're misreading the Code:
> 
> 604.2 Copper tube for water piping shall have a weight of not
> less than Type L.​Exception: Type M copper tubing shall be permitted to be used
> for water piping when piping is above ground in, or on, a building​or underground outside of structures. Mark


Interesting side note, per 2009 UPC 604.8 *Exception*
Plastic water service piping (PE, PVC, CPVC) requires a blue insulated tracer wire not less that 18 AWG.


----------



## bkplumber (Jan 24, 2011)

Master Mark said:


> hey now... I just thought I would stir up the pot...
> 
> but honestly, we have used M since 1950 and its really never been a problem....


Yes but in 1950 i bet the water pressure was lower than now so m copper could hold up. We have alot of blowouts here because of the thin wall of that pipe.


----------



## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

I think we should market copper like gasoline. Let the customer decide just like they do at the pump. I bet you sell more regular.

regular =Type M
midgrade=Type L
Premium =Type K


----------



## luv2plumb (Apr 30, 2010)

I mainly do commercial so we use type L; I have only used M for pan drains and T&P.


----------



## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Only use m on heating that's what we was taught

Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Ok, let's compare piping and duration.

How long should a house piping system last without leak with type m?


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I've always felt a properly installed plumbing system should be darn near bullet proof for at least forty years or more. Fixtures excluded.


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Indie said:


> Ok, let's compare piping and duration.
> 
> How long should a house piping system last without leak with type m?


 
The oldest copper system I ever worked on was a large estate built in the 30s. 

Mark


----------



## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> I've always felt a properly installed plumbing system should be darn near bullet proof for at least forty years or more. Fixtures excluded.


I know of some houses here built in the 50's with "M" above ground that has never had a problem with the copper.

The most problem I have seen are the ones built in the 70's or have PVC water services


----------



## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> The oldest copper system I ever worked on was a large estate built in the 30s.
> 
> Mark


Ditto. 1930's


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> I've always felt a properly installed plumbing system should be darn near bullet proof for at least forty years or more. Fixtures excluded.


I agree with that assessment. 



ToUtahNow said:


> The oldest copper system I ever worked on was a large estate built in the 30s.
> 
> Mark





Associated Plum said:


> I know of some houses here built in the 50's with "M" above ground that has never had a problem with the copper.
> 
> The most problem I have seen are the ones built in the 70's or have PVC water services


I have also worked on systems with that old of copper, but have problems with the 70's and younger homes. 

I am still digging to find out the problem. If its not the copper, then what is it? 

If it is aggressive water, then how do you explain why some houses have no problems and others have pinholes?


----------



## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

I've also worked on houses from the thirties that were plumbed in "m" copper. The Streamline fittings with a hole in the side for solder are a dead giveaway. My house (the part that hasn't been remodeled) has type m circa 1948. Changed the gal water service in '79, otherwise no problems. 

I think the pin holes we hear about have more to do with water chemistry than any inherent flaw in copper tube. In my area, leaks are usually found on hot water recirculation lines attributable to corrosion/erosion caused by any of the following: cuts not reamed, too much hp on the pump, return line too small (1/2"), short radius 90's, i.e., anything that contributes to turbulance. Tank temps set too high can also break down the lining of copper tubing, especially when the hot water is circulated. As explained to me by the CDA, the molecular structure of copper in contact with high temps (135°-140°) changes, allowing it to slough off, like dead skin.


----------



## Plumber3653 (May 5, 2010)

Type M has been used for years. Most plumbers will agree that PROPERLY INSTALLED copper piping will last if it is L or M. Grounding and water quality effect all types of copper. A friend recently asked me to inspect his house and look for any potential problems before they go away for a month. The copper piping was type M, installed 30 years ago and looked perfect. Never a problem with it since they had the house built.


----------



## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

It all depends on the water, some water will eat through K, before better water would eat through M.


----------



## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

Out here on the west coast type L is minimum, pex is used alot for new construction, M is mainly used for heating lines, because our water is slightly acidic.


----------



## brassnipple (Apr 22, 2009)

Not reaming the pipe has a lot to do with it.


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

If its not the type of copper as much as it is something else. 

How much of a factor is proper installation? 
Reamed pipe, smart use of fitting etc...vs.no ream, poor use of layout 
As someone mentioned, turbulence. 
Or

Is it more a water quality issue?
If it is water quality, then what is it in the water that is eating the pipe?


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

We have used type M copper up here forever in residential..... Type L and K for commercial and Industrial...

Heating closed system we are allowed to use type H ... this is even thinner than type M ,, actually thinner than DWV....... open heating system is minimum type M..

The only time type M has a problem here is in about after the 10 year mark for system on drilled well water....

It seems to be the mineral in the well water that eats out the pipe.... up here we have high Iron content in the well water and those plumbing system are affected first for pin holes...


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Indie said:


> If its not the type of copper as much as it is something else.
> 
> How much of a factor is proper installation?
> Reamed pipe, smart use of fitting etc...vs.no ream, poor use of layout
> ...


It really depends on where you are. The majority of the United States is compatible with copper tubing. As for installation, regardless of where you are if your pipe is not properly sized and/or reamed you will have velocity erosion. For the most part, velocity erosion is limited to hot water circulating lines.

Mark


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

The voice of reason for the day :thumbsup:



Associated Plum said:


> "M" has also been used around here for years and the only times I have seen pinholes in copper is on 1/8" ice maker lines and what I am going to refer to as electrolysis.
> 
> *If you are getting pinholes on "M' it just going to take a little longer for them to show up in "L"*.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I didn't know such a thing existed?!



OldSchool said:


> We have used type M copper up here forever in residential..... Type L and K for commercial and Industrial...
> 
> *Heating closed system we are allowed to use type H* ... this is even thinner than type M ,, actually thinner than DWV....... open heating system is minimum type M..
> 
> ...


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Something to consider: Make sure you are actually dealing with type m on these leaks.

I did a repair at a 7-11 in Orlando years back where I was able to actually oval the pipe with my bare hands it was so thin (3/4" coming up up of the slab). I popped my head up into the drop ceiling only to find that the pipe was marked type L . It was corrosive water that had made the pipe thin! 

You could have installed sch.40 copper and it would have failed, it just would have taken longer!


----------



## smoldrn (Oct 4, 2010)

The well water in SW Fla used to eat up copper in 3-5yrs. We always spec'ed cpvc for wells.


----------



## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

*time bomb type-m*

Could the time frame be associated with the increased efforts to make the water safer by introducing more chemicals to the water that is more aggressive to the copper pipe


----------



## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Could the time frame be associated with the increased efforts to make the water safer by introducing more chemicals to the water that is more aggressive to the copper pipe


 
You hit the nail on the head.

I have always thought that our pinhole situation started to really peak just after 9-11. That would be when the powers that be were really trying to protect our water supply from a possible "attack". That is when my county water started to smell like pool water. You ever look at a poolguys truckbed?

I'm not a wacko, just observant.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Sounds a bit backward to me 



Richard Hilliard said:


> Could the time frame be associated with the increased efforts to *make the water safer by introducing more chemicals* to the water that is more aggressive to the copper pipe


----------



## Ishmael (Dec 9, 2009)

I had one recently - right after the main shut off after the well tank. I had to cut out about 12" of copper. It was like handling tin foil.


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

gitnerdun said:


> You hit the nail on the head.
> 
> I have always thought that our pinhole situation started to really peak just after 9-11. That would be when the powers that be were really trying to protect our water supply from a possible "attack". That is when my county water started to smell like pool water. You ever look at a poolguys truckbed?
> 
> I'm not a wacko, just observant.


The Clean Water Act was passed in 1978. That is where the EPA took over and started to monitor water systems. That is where Chlorine really became important to pass water test. After 9/11 security was increased but Chlorine cannot protect us from toxic chemicals from a terrorists. If you are noticing more chlorine in the water it is more likely the result of a couple of bad test.

Mark


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Could the time frame be associated with the increased efforts to make the water safer by introducing more chemicals to the water that is more aggressive to the copper pipe



I have been wondering the same thing. I used to go to church with the head of the local water department. I have been determined to get a sit down with him, and see if I can't get a better idea of what they use to clean the water. 

One time we took our Cub Scouts on a tour of the water plant, and he rattled off so many things it was hard to keep straight what they were doing. 

I have a water kit capable of testing for ph, but I don't think that would be of much assistance. 

We do have other problems here with water...

Even though they treat the water, there is not a water heater in town that does not pop and crackle like its making popcorn. Most houses without a softener have problems with build-up, and tarnishing of fixtures. 

However, when I test for hardness, and iron, I get nothing for a reading. But I can tell you for a fact, in this city if you don't have a softener, you will be unhappy with your water. In a city of 12,000 we have at least two companies dedicated to water conditioning. Along with several plumbers, and out of town companies that provide conditioning sales. 

It bothers me I don't know what the problem is, and would love to find a solution.


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Water purveyors have two standards they follow. Primary standards are what makes the water safe and is regulated by the Feds. Secondary standards are things like taste, appearance or the smell of water and is controlled locally.

In recent years some water purveyors have started to add either a poly orthophosphate or a zinc orthophosphate to their water to cut down their corrosion within their equipment. It is suppose to protect copper and I am working on a high-rise building where we are aspirating zinc orthophosphate into the system. A couple of years ago I read a study from a University that concluded poly orthophosphate may actually be causing corrosion in copper instead of protecting it.

Mark


----------



## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

bkplumber said:


> Yes but in 1950 i bet the water pressure was lower than now so m copper could hold up. We have alot of blowouts here because of the thin wall of that pipe.


 
:laughing::laughing::laughing:...............


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Pipe Rat said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing:...............


That was my reaction as well but I kept it to myself. I'm not sure if his area has a higher working pressure or not but I think Type M Hard has a pressure rating of over 900 psi.

Mark


----------



## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> That was my reaction as well but I kept it to myself. I'm not sure if his area has a higher working pressure or not but I think Type M Hard has a pressure rating of over 900 psi.
> 
> Mark


I had to add that line to my signature. :laughing:


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Protech said:


> I didn't know such a thing existed?!


See you learn something everyday :laughing:

If you order hydronic baseboard rad it either comes as regular type H or type M.... H is super thin..... type M we have to use on open systems


----------



## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Pipe Rat said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing:...............


Hey, didn't you know they recently raised all of the water towers, to increase pressure?

Or maybe the cranked on the screws on their pressure switches..........yeah, thats it..........................


----------



## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> In recent years some water purveyors have started to add either a poly orthophosphate or a zinc orthophosphate to their water to cut down their corrosion within their equipment.
> Mark


And other water purveyors are now disinfecting with chloramine, which is much more stable than chlorine and does not dissipate from the water before it reaches consumers. NH2Cl (chloramine) also has a very much lower, however still present, tendency than chlorine to convert organic materials present in water into Trihalomethanes (THMs). Such compounds have been identified as carcinogens and in 1979, per the previous mentioned Clean Water Act, the EPA began regulating their levels in U.S. drinking water. Since most water purveyors could not reach allowable levels of THMs disinfecting with chlorine, many have chosen to switch to chloramine. Unintended consequences of this switch are still unknown. Those of us being subjected to chloramine are unaware Beta testers (guinea pigs). It could turn out that the risks of long term exposure to chloramine are greater than the carcenogenic hazard associated with chlorine.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 6, 2011)

*Type M*

My expience has been acidic water, probley could happen w/ alkilyn water also. MA has mandated public water to neutral, however there are plenty of private well with untreated water. I have a customer who's tubing is so thin it is difficult to cut w/ tubing cutter.


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> My expience has been acidic water, probley could happen w/ alkilyn water also. MA has mandated public water to neutral, however there are plenty of private well with untreated water. I have a customer who's tubing is so thin it is difficult to cut w/ tubing cutter.


*Hello! Introduction Requested* 
An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/.

The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession)

Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field.

This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is.

We look forward to your valuable input.


----------



## SPH (Nov 4, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> That was my reaction as well but I kept it to myself. I'm not sure if his area has a higher working pressure or not but I think Type M Hard has a pressure rating of over 900 psi.
> 
> Mark


Working pressure for type m is 600psi type l is 900psi. Probably still a bit higher than his areas city pressure...


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

SPH said:


> Working pressure for type m is 600psi type l is 900psi. Probably still a bit higher than his areas city pressure...


I was off a little but not by too much.

1/2" Type L Hard @ 100 degrees has an Rated Internal Working Pressure of 1242 psi.

1/2" Type M Hard @ 100 degrees has an Rated Internal Working Pressure of 850 psi.

Mark


----------

