# Braze 4" copper pipe



## rlove250

Hey,

Has anyone here ever brazed 4" type L copper?

What tip sizes did you use? What rod did you use? Any tips or pointers you could give me?

Thanks


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## Qball415

Bienvenido. How's the apprenticeship?


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## rlove250

Going good. I would like a solution so maybe my boss will let me braze a bit.

We had one A32 on top of the fitting, a rosebud also on the top and an A11 underneath keeping the bottom hot. There was little to no penetration. The fitting was a dull red, but the pipe was still black. We were heating it for a couple minutes and no luck.

My journeyman went and did a 2"fitting and that worked.

So they are feeling stumped, and debating soldering the fittings.

Any help?


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## Greenguy

3" a few months ago with my #32a turbo torch tip, also borrowed one of our HVAC guys he had a mini oxy/accylene system using an MC tank, that was bloody hot and worked like a hot damn. there is a paste you can use for doing brass fittings, works kinda like flux. after any brazing i carry a bottle of Nitro on board which makes for easy safe pressure testing 2-400psi.


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## NYC Plumber

rlove250 said:


> Going good. I would like a solution so maybe my boss will let me braze a bit.
> 
> We had one A32 on top of the fitting, a rosebud also on the top and an A11 underneath keeping the bottom hot. There was little to no penetration. The fitting was a dull red, but the pipe was still black. We were heating it for a couple minutes and no luck.
> 
> My journeyman went and did a 2"fitting and that worked.
> 
> So they are feeling stumped, and debating soldering the fittings.
> 
> Any help?


This doesnt sound good. Why cant you braze 4"? I dont get it.


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## Adamche

We silver braze all the time, use oxy acetylene kit tip size 20. Keep fittings clean, if using brass, use the correct flux( it is a white paste). And if possible use 15% silver solder. Preheat any brass fitting. You will struggle to do it with a turbo torch or mapp gas


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## revenge

is it for med gas


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## JNOHZ

Is it part of the keystone pipeline.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

I have a goss tip. Ga 32 I think it will do fine but it eats the he'll out a b-tank!!! but oxy ac mix is your best way to go. Using a big rosebud/ brazing tip. Sounds like you didn't heat the pipe first Always heat pipe first. Thus will expand the pipe a but and make a tight fit then heat the fitting but not glowing orange !! Push 15% sil floss into the fitting all the way around starting on bottom and leading it with the heat then cap off the joint like a welder running a bead !! When you cap it reduce heat a but and the sil floss will thicken giving you a better cap Heat pipe first !!! About two inches or more from the face of the fitting apply the heat at a 45 degree toward the fitting!! Then when you see a purple sheen on the pipe heat fitting then start to stroke the fitting/pipe with the sil floss until it melts and then solder it. After practice you'll know when it's hot enough but knew guys should stroke it !!! Lol get it. Lol. Good luck


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## rlove250

Great tips. We are using sil floss.

My journeyman and super, are doing the brazing. I am tying in the branches. I just want to get some tips so they might let me braze more. If you were wondering why it wasn't working, that is what I'm trying to troubleshoot. I'm thinking it's because the pipe itself was not hot enough, even though the fitting was red hot.

It is for the cold water main.

No, it's not for keystone. I assume that will be upwards of 16" -24" steel. Maybe some copper in the pump stations. It's for a school.

Why do you say start at the bottom? We were starting from the top.

Thanks


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## revenge

heat rises young grass hopper


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## rlove250

I think I should write that one down. Haha


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## user7551

Adamche said:


> We silver braze all the time, use oxy acetylene kit tip size 20. Keep fittings clean, if using brass, use the correct flux( it is a white paste). And if possible use 15% silver solder. Preheat any brass fitting. You will struggle to do it with a turbo torch or mapp gas


Listen to him he knows what he is talking about.


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## court

Adamche is 100% correct, use use oxy acetylene! 4" is way too big for a B tank. You can do it but it will suck gas like a H-1 Hummer! I typically use a rosebud on pipe that big as well. You need to get the pipe equally as hot as the fitting! I am also a firm believer that when you get both hot and ready to go you start with the flame at the pipe and stroke the flame towards the cup. You CAN draw the silphloss into the cup all the way. Once I get it drawn all the way in I like to cap the fitting where the pipe enters. I have done miles of Medgas and I can tell you it works! Many ways to skin a cat but this is how I do it and how I have all of my guys do it.
Good Luck


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## Tommy plumber

court said:


> Adamche is 100% correct, use use oxy acetylene! *4" is way too big for a B tank*. You can do it but it will suck gas like a H-1 Hummer! I typically use a rosebud on pipe that big as well. You need to get the pipe equally as hot as the fitting! I am also a firm believer that when you get both hot and ready to go you start with the flame at the pipe and stroke the flame towards the cup. You CAN draw the silphloss into the cup all the way. Once I get it drawn all the way in I like to cap the fitting where the pipe enters. I have done miles of Medgas and I can tell you it works! Many ways to skin a cat but this is how I do it and how I have all of my guys do it.
> Good Luck


 





I have brazed 4" copper with a B-tank and a big tip. It can be done.


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## Will

I always just solder 4" copper pipe. Use a a32 tip and acetylene B-tank. I've even soldered 6" a few times with the same tip. Unless there is a reason your brazing(med gas), I think it is over kill.


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## user7551

Will said:


> I always just solder 4" copper pipe. Use a a32 tip and acetylene B-tank. I've even soldered 6" a few times with the same tip. Unless there is a reason your brazing(med gas), I think it is over kill.



Schools I have done in the past it is usually spec'd out to be brazed.


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## court

Tommy plumber said:


> I have brazed 4" copper with a B-tank and a big tip. It can be done.


I didn't say it couldn't be done with a B-tank. It of course can however if you have multiple joints it isn't the best choice IMHO.


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## Will

playme1979 said:


> Schools I have done in the past it is usually spec'd out to be brazed.



That might be what they say on paper, but I have over a 1000 joints on 4" copper with a b-tank, a32 tip, and solder in the real world that say it works just fine.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

It can be done. I did it a few days ago. With my goss brand. GA-32


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## user7551

Will said:


> That might be what they say on paper, but I have over a 1000 joints on 4" copper with a b-tank, a32 tip, and solder in the real world that say it works just fine.



I tend to follow what the engineer spec's, keeps ya outta trouble.If the spec's tell me to braze then I will braze. If it says to solder I will solder.Never said you can't solder 4" copper with a 32 tip.


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## stecar

Whats 4" copper? I would use pex


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## deerslayer

Anything bigger than 3" I use 2 a-32's at the same time (helper). Heat the pipe first just like you should when soldering. Start at the bottom but try to get it all cherry red at least half way up before you bother with the bcup brazing rod. When the bottom half is cherry red move the flame to the back of the cup and start brazing force it in the bottom and move up each side keeping the flame ahead of your brazing rod on the back of the cup go around the joint on each side to 10 o clock and 2 o clock force the braze in don't just touch it push a little bit. When you have the bottom and both sides cap the top of the joint. 

Remember brazing ain't purdy and most leaks I have fixed are the guys making those purdy joints and the guys who still believe that a 1/2" of solder or braze will solder or braze a half inch joint properly. A 4" joint properly filled will take probably 2 pieces of brazing rod.


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## rlove250

So we are still not successful. We are using a no 10 rosebud tip with fuel at optimum mix. Just not getting hot enough and it is leaving a thick layer of carbon on the pipe. Any thoughts?


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## deerslayer

rlove250 said:


> So we are still not successful. We are using a no 10 rosebud tip with fuel at optimum mix. Just not getting hot enough and it is leaving a thick layer of carbon on the pipe. Any thoughts?


If you are getting a thick layer of carbon your fuel is not at optimum mix! Also to much carbon will shield the phosfourus which is what is in the copper to allow you to braze without additional flux! Did you get it red hot?


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

deerslayer said:


> If you are getting a thick layer of carbon your fuel is not at optimum mix! Also to much carbon will shield the phosfourus which is what is in the copper to allow you to braze without additional flux! Did you get it red hot?


Thus is you and a helper or your j man?? Your an apprentice rite??


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Ment that for rlove. Not you deerslayer. Sorry


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## revenge

i remember way back tex you asked me the same question lol jk


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## user7551

rlove250 said:


> So we are still not successful. We are using a no 10 rosebud tip with fuel at optimum mix. Just not getting hot enough and it is leaving a thick layer of carbon on the pipe. Any thoughts?



Need more oxygen.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Needs to come to Texas so we can show you how to sil floss!! I can do it all day with my goss ga 32. Faster with oxy but b tank will do it !!


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## jeffreyplumber

oxyacetalene ! Not mapp or a a32 tip on a b tank. Were talking 4 inch? I mean you might be able to fight through a single joint but if your brazing get the right tools


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

I agree if your doin a lot of brazing. But the other day i brazed a 4" 90 45 and companion flange with my ga 32 and a b tank. It takes a bit longer that way but it would have taken too long to get the welding trailer from the shop


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## revenge

When we ran med gas, we used a32 with an acetyline tank. Theres a special adapter that lets you use the bigger tanks with your torch. Never tryed with the other way though.


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## red_devil

I Use the a 32 and an a- tank for t drills but its not physical 4" joints, just t drilled into 4 inch pipe and its the branchs


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## Tommy plumber

Make sure you have your tubing cutters for cutting 4"......
The copper in the pic is 2".


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Dam Tommy how old are those ??


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## PrecisePlumbing

Adamche said:


> We silver braze all the time, use oxy acetylene kit tip size 20. Keep fittings clean, if using brass, use the correct flux( it is a white paste). And if possible use 15% silver solder. Preheat any brass fitting. You will struggle to do it with a turbo torch or mapp gas


Amen brother we only braze in the great land of oz! 20 tip does 8 inch type L copper if you have it crankin biggest I've done


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## Tommy plumber

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Dam Tommy how old are those ??


 






I don't know...(shrugging shoulders). I bought them used from someone years ago.


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## jeffreyplumber

Even If I knew I had a single 4inch tee not just a 1 inch branch t drill but a full 4 inch fitting to braze I would not leave home without oxy acetalene. Now if it just comes up un planned I might try something else. But if your brazing above 2 inch try to plan your work. Ive had to braze 3 inch with a #32 tip turbo and it sucks and is very unproductive if you have multible joints. Unless its an emergency I can see no reason to attempt


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## union brother 1

rlove250 said:


> So we are still not successful. We are using a no 10 rosebud tip with fuel at optimum mix. Just not getting hot enough and it is leaving a thick layer of carbon on the pipe. Any thoughts?



its not mixing right...wat color is that flame....brazing copper to copper or brass?


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## rlove250

Copper to copper. The flame is white and the feather is about 8-10 inches long.


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## jeffreyplumber

union brother 1 said:


> its not mixing right...wat color is that flame....brazing copper to copper or brass?


Brother Local 1
More oxegen if your getting soot unless your tip is plugged or something but it sounds like you need more ox


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## izzyduke

NYC Plumber said:


> This doesnt sound good. Why cant you braze 4"? I dont get it.


 get a bigger tank or better regulator cause ive brazed lotza 4" with one 32 tip no probs.


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## izzyduke

rlove250 said:


> Great tips. We are using sil floss.
> 
> My journeyman and super, are doing the brazing. I am tying in the branches. I just want to get some tips so they might let me braze more. If you were wondering why it wasn't working, that is what I'm trying to troubleshoot. I'm thinking it's because the pipe itself was not hot enough, even though the fitting was red hot.
> 
> It is for the cold water main.
> 
> No, it's not for keystone. I assume that will be upwards of 16" -24" steel. Maybe some copper in the pump stations. It's for a school.
> 
> Why do you say start at the bottom? We were starting from the top.
> 
> Thanks


 Always start brazing from the bottom and work your way up.


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## Adamche

izzyduke said:


> Always start brazing from the bottom and work your way up.


Not with oxy/acetylene, always start at the hardest part to reach, or see!


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## chuckscott

did some 4" in a commercial laundry not too long ago. did the b tank thing. couldn't get it to take due to a faulty shut off letting enough water by to make me scream expletives in three languages. long story short, ran to shop, got propress, 4" couplings and fixed it in half the time I spent d**king around with b tank. 

I tried to get customer to spring for a new valve before I propressed it. He wanted me to shark bite it, said he saw them at some supply house. :bangin:
Should have sent him out to get them. I'd still be there one billable hour at a time.:thumbup:


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## themavinator

revenge said:


> heat rises young grass hopper


Heat doesn't rise padawan. But that's beside the point. You start at the bottom to build a dam.


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## Nathan901

Anyone ever seen swedged out 4" copper brazed up like that? 
I had to take a picture of it. It was from a hotel with nothing but stuff similar to it. There were so many buckets in the ceilings catching leaks that they ran drains from the buckets into floor drains :yes:


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## Plumbtastic1

Nathan901 said:


> Anyone ever seen swedged out 4" copper brazed up like that? I had to take a picture of it. It was from a hotel with nothing but stuff similar to it. There were so many buckets in the ceilings catching leaks that they ran drains from the buckets into floor drains :yes:


 nice!

from the long lost app


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## sparky

rlove250 said:


> Hey,
> 
> Has anyone here ever brazed 4" type L copper?
> 
> What tip sizes did you use? What rod did you use? Any tips or pointers you could give me?
> 
> Thanks


If you just have one or two joints to graze get you 2 full b-tanks with the big tips for turbo torch rig and get someone else to heat other side of fitting and you will have it,if you use oxy rig you most likely will melt the fitting.:yes:


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## Adamche

sparky said:


> If you just have one or two joints to graze get you 2 full b-tanks with the big tips for turbo torch rig and get someone else to heat other side of fitting and you will have it,if you use oxy rig you most likely will melt the fitting.:yes:



Total crap.


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## justme

The only way I have brazed 4" copper is with an oxy- acetylene rose bud.


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## TXPlumbBob

The largest I have been involved with was 6" copper w/brass tees and 90s. We used a (1) cutting torch set up with a rose bud about the size of 1" pipe. The brass MUST be preheated or it will split in half. Have a hand full of SilFlos handy and keep the torch moving. Just in case, the tip of the blue flame is the hottest point. 
The straight runs were VICTed together.

P.S. Breathing the super hot dry air all day when we first started made me sicker than a dog. Sore throat and cough. We put fans that would blow over us and not on the work and it helped a bunch.


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## dhal22

justme said:


> The only way I have brazed 4" copper is with an oxy- acetylene rose bud.


Agree, I've silfossed 4 and 6", the oxy/acetylene rose bud makes it easy.

David


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## swidere

*about brazeing 4 in copper*

clean the piece use 15 % sil fos rods then # 4 rose bud tip ox ace not a big deal 475


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## swidere

question why are you doing this just soilder 95/5 or sta brite just as strong besides wou are gonna wind up with black oxidation inside could cause problem at orfises 475


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## wyrickmech

One thing to consider is where this is. In the ground it's ok. Above ground is not recommended on domestic above ground.


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## sparky

Adamche said:


> Total crap.


You are crazy dude,just cause you don't know how to do it doesn't mean I can't do it,and I have done it,very easily


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## justme

sparky said:


> You are crazy dude,just cause you don't know how to do it doesn't mean I can't do it,and I have done it,very easily


Hes referring to you stating " you will most likely melt a fitting" being total crap. I've brazed tens of thousands of feet of pipe and never melted a fitting.


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## wyrickmech

justme said:


> Hes referring to you stating " you will most likely melt a fitting" being total crap. I've brazed tens of thousands of feet of pipe and never melted a fitting.


 I melted one by accident. I was hooking up a refrigerant line to a chiller and got the rosebud torch stuck before I knew it the fitting was on the floor. Lol


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## Plumber patt

sparky said:


> You are crazy dude,just cause you don't know how to do it doesn't mean I can't do it,and I have done it,very easily


So aggressive! wow..


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## sparky

justme said:


> Hes referring to you stating " you will most likely melt a fitting" being total crap. I've brazed tens of thousands of feet of pipe and never melted a fitting.


I guess what I was referring to was we ran a bunch of refrgiderent lines to daikon units in a high school and the company would not get us a rose bud tip and all we had was b-tanks and oxy-cetylene torch with a cutter head tip,and if you weren't real careful that sucker would melt the copper before you could blink an eye,even with a long tail on it it would melt that copper like butter,that's what I was referring to in all this brazing thread,should have been more specific:laughing:


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## Adamche

sparky said:


> You are crazy dude,just cause you don't know how to do it doesn't mean I can't do it,and I have done it,very easily



We ONLY silver solder copper here for gas,water, air, oxygen....whatever. Soft solder was phased out in the mid 70s. The most economical quickest and safest way to silver braze copper pipe is with a OXY acetylene kit. I have done thousands of joints and the only time I've seen copper fittings or pipe melted was operator error.


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## rjbphd

Adamche said:


> We ONLY silver solder copper here for gas,water, air, oxygen....whatever. Soft solder was phased out in the mid 70s. The most economical quickest and safest way to silver braze copper pipe is with a OXY acetylene kit. I have done thousands of joints and the only time I've seen copper fittings or pipe melted was operator error.


 Hey ADAMCHE!! How's everythng fron down and under???


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## sparky

Adamche said:


> We ONLY silver solder copper here for gas,water, air, oxygen....whatever. Soft solder was phased out in the mid 70s. The most economical quickest and safest way to silver braze copper pipe is with a OXY acetylene kit. I have done thousands of joints and the only time I've seen copper fittings or pipe melted was operator error.


Try it with a cutter head on the torch,that what we had to use to braze the lines on diaken units


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## rlove250

Ok guys. Let it go. There is more than enough information provided in this thread for me to get the info I needed 3 years ago. 

Moderator please delete this post before these people get their panties in more of a knot


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## justme

sparky said:


> I guess what I was referring to was we ran a bunch of refrgiderent lines to daikon units in a high school and the company would not get us a rose bud tip and all we had was b-tanks and oxy-cetylene torch with a cutter head tip,and if you weren't real careful that sucker would melt the copper before you could blink an eye,even with a long tail on it it would melt that copper like butter,that's what I was referring to in all this brazing thread,should have been more specific:laughing:


well that makes sense, you don't use a cutting torch head to braze copper:laughing:


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## Plumber patt

sparky said:


> Try it with a cutter head on the torch,that what we had to use to braze the lines on diaken units


operator error... what do you expect would happen using the wrong tools..


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## Mykeeb33

It's a time thing. You could easily do two or three joints with a oxy-acet rosebud setup in the time it takes to do one with a B tank. Location is also a big factor. If you're outside in a ditch and it's the least bit windy, that's going to complicate things. Adamche and Court are on the money. Get the pipe hot first. and not just the first couple inches. Fan it 12-18 inches away (not red hot) so the heat doesn't leave the joint so fast. After getting the joint red hot, I work the bottom, 4 to 8, then 4-1, them 8-11, then top it off. Make it look pretty. Cap it off with your B tank tip. Clean the black soot off with a hemp gunny sack. They work great.


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