# eternal 100



## Donahue756 (Feb 25, 2012)

Has anybody installed them, Pros/Cons. They say retro fit but can u vent it to a common B vent, cant find any info on that. any help would be grateful.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

what is an eternal 100 ?


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## Donahue756 (Feb 25, 2012)

sorry.
http://eternalwaterheater.com/GU100i.html


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Not in canada! Its pvc so i doubt you could common vent it with another appliance that is b vented! Impossible! maybe they mean using an abandoned b vent as a chase. Dont know!


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## PlumberJake (Nov 15, 2010)

I've put a couple of them in. I don't believe Bvent is an approved vent for them.

You can download the installation manual from eternal's website to verify vent requirements.

I ran new 3" sch 40 Pvc for both of the ones I installed.


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

I thought it was a gun safe.

Hope I can return it.


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## Donahue756 (Feb 25, 2012)

At http://www.phcnews.com/ there is a video of a install and he no hubs the pvc to b vent. not sure how that works with the whole btu rating for sizing.


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## RealCraftsMan (Dec 27, 2011)

I have been putting those in for the last year. Its an easy upsell, charge about $2,200-$2,500. They take a bit longer to hook up, cond line tie in, lowering the water lines etc. Takes about two hours to install done about 20 or so of them. I had to go change a board out one but thats the only call back.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

our supply house just dicontinued them 
they claim that out of 20 units you can expect 3
to go bad.... the rest are usually ok....

and I guess the technical support
basically tells you to call them back when they 
are not too busy.....basically fuc/ off....

I saw a freind of mine take one back to the local
eternal dealer for a refund after a few months of 
trouble.....

according to him, if you get a bad one it is hell


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

The installation video does in fact show the PVC vent tying into the B vent with a no-hub. 

Still skeptical about any water heater of that nature being able to run off a 1/2 inch gas line. The guy in the video said something like it can run 2 fixtures no problem. 

Would prefer to hear from those who actually put them in.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Indie said:


> The installation video does in fact show the PVC vent tying into the B vent with a no-hub.
> 
> Still skeptical about any water heater of that nature being able to run off a 1/2 inch gas line. The guy in the video said something like it can run 2 fixtures no problem.
> 
> Would prefer to hear from those who actually put them in.


 What happens to the b vent when it condenses? :blink::laughing:


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

If anyone installs it in anything but sch 40 PVC, you are looking for a lawsuit.

In the specs it only mentions 2 and 3 inch PVC. You do not use b vent for forced exhaust system. I am certain it is class III or IV vent material only.


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## RealCraftsMan (Dec 27, 2011)

Indie said:


> The installation video does in fact show the PVC vent tying into the B vent with a no-hub.
> 
> Still skeptical about any water heater of that nature being able to run off a 1/2 inch gas line. The guy in the video said something like it can run 2 fixtures no problem.
> 
> Would prefer to hear from those who actually put them in.


 
Ask away! I've put a bunch in.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

I never liked the Eternal, yes I guess you can call it a hybrid heater since it has a less than 2 gallon storage tank.

Now I have seen a true hybrid heater the other day. Its by State, it is a tankless with a 25 gallon storage tank. The people have a single unit installed in their 4 bath home and have had no issues with hot water when all 4 showers ran, also they can fill their soaker tub with no issues. http://www.statewaterheaters.com/prod/residential/res_hybrid_gas_premier.html


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

RealCraftsMan said:


> Ask away! I've put a bunch in.


Where does it say you can use b vent? What category does it state to use for the vent?


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> I never liked the Eternal, yes I guess you can call it a hybrid heater since it has a less than 2 gallon storage tank.
> 
> Now I have seen a true hybrid heater the other day. Its by State, it is a tankless with a 25 gallon storage tank. The people have a single unit installed in their 4 bath home and have had no issues with hot water when all 4 showers ran, also they can fill their soaker tub with no issues. http://www.statewaterheaters.com/prod/residential/res_hybrid_gas_premier.html


Once the 20 gallons is gone in a larger dump, basically they rely on 100,000 btus to heat water instantaneously which would be under 3 GPM for most normal rise requirements. 

DOE is creating a new classification for gas-fired hybrids. The requirement will be 20 gallons, 100,000 BTU minimum, making the eternal hybrid no longer a hybrid. Or at least they wont be able to be called one. There goes some marketing dollars huh? Once this class is made, the AO smith Next hybrid and a few others can qualify as energy star and be listed. As they are not listed now, they are stuck between being a low powered tankless or a low storage tank with no home to be classified in.


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## RealCraftsMan (Dec 27, 2011)

Gettinit said:


> Where does it say you can use b vent? What category does it state to use for the vent?


We had a demo from the factory rep and he said..."hey f**Kers yall better not ever tie the pvc into the B vent...ever." 

So the company does not want you doing, Idk what that crap in the video was about. We always pop them through the roof with pvc and reuse the old flashing.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Gettinit said:


> Where does it say you can use b vent? What category does it state to use for the vent?


Eternal 90%+ condensing is clearly a CAT IV appliance, big error in that video. Since Paul Home of eternal starts it out that's an endorsement of the install and contractor right? 

Big mistake there!


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

RealCraftsMan said:


> We had a demo from the factory rep and he said..."hey f**Kers yall better not ever tie the pvc into the B vent...ever."
> 
> So the company does not want you doing, Idk what that crap in the video was about. We always pop them through the roof with pvc and reuse the old flashing.


Then it is not considered a category I appliance. That settles that then. No b vent.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Well the State Hybrid seems to do the job well, they claim a recovery at a 90 degree temp rise of 192 gallons. That is same kind of recovery of a standard 75 gallon tank PV heater.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

RealCraftsMan said:


> We had a demo from the factory rep and he said..."hey f**Kers yall better not ever tie the pvc into the B vent...ever."
> 
> So the company does not want you doing, Idk what that crap in the video was about. We always pop them through the roof with pvc and reuse the old flashing.


 I aint a teacher but this seems like a bad piping principle you may like to bring up in class when category venting is involved! Great to here you are teaching, spreading the truth is the most noble of causes! Pupils that listen another story. Good luck and best wishes!


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> Well the State Hybrid seems to do the job well, they claim a recovery at a 90 degree temp rise of 192 gallons. That is same kind of recovery of a standard 75 gallon tank PV heater.


Yup

2.8666 GPM at 90 degree rise x 60 minutes + 20 gal storage is 192 GPH 

But oh so expensive to do that.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

ZL700 said:


> Yup
> 
> 2.8666 GPM at 90 degree rise x 60 minutes + 20 gal storage is 192 GPH
> 
> But oh so expensive to do that.


 25 gal storage. and yes them buggers are not cheap.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

pilot light said:


> What happens to the b vent when it condenses? :blink::laughing:


It runs down into the unit, then drains out through a nifty acid neutralizer. 



Gettinit said:


> If anyone installs it in anything but sch 40 PVC, you are looking for a lawsuit.
> 
> In the specs it only mentions 2 and 3 inch PVC. You do not use b vent for forced exhaust system. I am certain it is class III or IV vent material only.



In the installation video, the master plumber pulls out a 40 gallon natural draft gas water heater. Further in it shows him hooking 3 inch pvc to what sure looks like standard B vent with a no-hub. 

If I am wrong watch it and tell me what it is I missed. 

On another note, there is no way in hell I would do that. Pull it out and use the same space to run the pvc vent, or cap it off and take the vent out somewhere else.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Indie said:


> It runs down into the unit, then drains out through a nifty acid neutralizer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 low stack temp will also make the b vent condense! why would someone use b vent vs c vent then?


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Indie said:


> It runs down into the unit, then drains out through a nifty acid neutralizer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will have to watch later, I am on my phone. Taking into consideration other posts that you have made in various threads, I did not think you would do such a thing.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

I have ask about centrotherm in a few threads guess you guys down south have never







seen it! :blink:


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

pilot light said:


> low stack temp will also make the b vent condense! why would someone use b vent vs c vent then?





Gettinit said:


> I will have to watch later, I am on my phone. Taking into consideration other posts that you have made in various threads, I did not think you would do such a thing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RbvgD_vyyfI#t=342s

Wasn't sure how to just use a snapshot, but click the link. Maybe roll back a few seconds.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

well that sounds like me!:laughing:


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> 25 gal storage. and yes them buggers are not cheap.


You won't find the actual capacity published anywhere, 20-25, who knows, they won't tell just speculation and rumors.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

pilot light said:


> I have ask about centrotherm in a few threads guess you guys down south have never
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Centrotherm is a brand name. Since polypropylene venting has become more readily available and costs has dropped we are seeing it more. Especially the flexible 2&3" that can be snaked up an abandoned b-vent or masonry chimney.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

ZL700 said:


> You won't find the actual capacity published anywhere, 20-25, who knows, they won't tell just speculation and rumors.



If they published what the real numbers were it would make for a hard sell. I don't mind telling people about different technologies, but they need to know the truth. 

A tank less should be looked at like a long term investment. Still giving thought to putting a Navien in my home. Slow work stretches the thinking process. :yes:


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

pilot light said:


> I have ask about centrotherm in a few threads guess you guys down south have never
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is it the same as AL29-4C? On the phone it looks similar to the Duravent FasNSeal.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Indie said:


> If they published what the real numbers were it would make for a hard sell. I don't mind telling people about different technologies, but they need to know the truth.
> 
> A tank less should be looked at like a long term investment. Still giving thought to putting a Navien in my home. Slow work stretches the thinking process. :yes:


Didn't they just have a big recall?


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Indie said:


> If they published what the real numbers were it would make for a hard sell. I don't mind telling people about different technologies, but they need to know the truth.
> 
> A tank less should be looked at like a long term investment. Still giving thought to putting a Navien in my home. Slow work stretches the thinking process. :yes:


I would look into a Bosch water heater. The way the burners light from low to high, it seems to be better on the burners suggesting better longer life and less maintenance issues. 

If taken care of properly I think they will last as long as any tank type also properly taken care of.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Gettinit said:


> Is it the same as AL29-4C? On the phone it looks similar to the Duravent FasNSeal.


It's polypropylene which is a high temp plastic, 230 degrees if I recall, not stainless.

But you are partly right, most of the SS co's are contracting with European manufacturers to add polypropylene to their line.

Basically it's what Rinnai has been using


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Gettinit said:


> Didn't they just have a big recall?


Yes 2008 only product, the vent collar. No reported failures yet but concerned of wrong material not bonding when cemented.


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## Donahue756 (Feb 25, 2012)

thanks guys that clears things up, I guess thats why the supply houses are not selling so many of them, damn eternal for making that video


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## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

Indie said:


> The installation video does in fact show the PVC vent tying into the B vent with a no-hub.
> 
> Still skeptical about any water heater of that nature being able to run off a 1/2 inch gas line. The guy in the video said something like it can run 2 fixtures no problem.
> 
> Would prefer to hear from those who actually put them in.


At 96% AFUE, this is a class IV condensing appliance, it can't be vented with standard B vent (unless it's stainless), because the condensate PH is too high.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

ZL700 said:


> You won't find the actual capacity published anywhere, 20-25, who knows, they won't tell just speculation and rumors.


Why yes, You can find the actual capacity published, right in the instruction manual.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

@5:12 & 5:39 there are some real high quality fittings used by the "master" plumber.


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## RealCraftsMan (Dec 27, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> @5:12 & 5:39 there are some real high quality fittings used by the "master" plumber.


My jaw dropped when I saw that hack bite on the T&P. Also when I saw him use his channel Locks on the T&P as well. I was always taught to only use a crescent wrench as not to deform the fitting. Dude is a hack...


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

RealCraftsMan said:


> My jaw dropped when I saw that hack bite on the T&P. Also when I saw him use his channel Locks on the T&P as well. I was always taught to only use a crescent wrench as not to deform the fitting. Dude is a hack...



Hey now, show some respect. The guy has been in the trade for 25 years, and is a master plumber. 

Maybe we should link that video to my "Customers getting a licensed plumber."


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

OK...in all fairness I have read the specs and watched the video.

Aside from quirky things on the install that are easy to correct, what is the problem with the unit?


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> OK...in all fairness I have read the specs and watched the video.
> 
> Aside from quirky things on the install that are easy to correct, what is the problem with the unit?


They make claims that it is way better than any tankless heater out there. But once you read the specs for the same temp rise for the Eternal verses any tankless heater, they pretty much have the same GPM ratings. Big difference is the Eternal does not restrict the flow to maintain the set temperature. So if you exceed the flow rate to get the desired temperature, you will start getting warm to cold water. Where a tankless restricts to the flow to maintain the set temperature, so when you exceed the flow, by turning on to many fixtures you will still get the desired temperature but the flow rate will be split among the fixtures, so you will end up with a trickle.

This is why I like the A.O. Smith / State Hybrid, it uses a 25 gallon tank and a indirect heater, kind of like some of the boiler setups I see in most restaurants. First hour deliver of hot water is 189 gallons which matches most standard residential 75 gallon gas fired heaters.


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## RealCraftsMan (Dec 27, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> OK...in all fairness I have read the specs and watched the video.
> 
> Aside from quirky things on the install that are easy to correct, what is the problem with the unit?


Put in 20 or so and only had one prob with the mother board. The company paid us to fix it and supplied the repair part. Once you show the customer the unit, they want it. In these days of having to have the latest Ipod etc it’s a must have that can be put in at a great price. We have all been to the “I need an estimate on a tankless” call right? Give them the tankless price and if they baulk then hit them with the Hybrid price. Easy sell. They work very well, we have kicked on two showers, and two lavs and still had plenty of hot water. But they deep south and the north will be different during winter.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

RealCraftsMan said:


> Put in 20 or so and only had one prob with the mother board. The company paid us to fix it and supplied the repair part. Once you show the customer the unit, they want it. In these days of having to have the latest Ipod etc it’s a must have that can be put in at a great price. We have all been to the “I need an estimate on a tankless” call right? Give them the tankless price and if they baulk then hit them with the Hybrid price. Easy sell. They work very well, we have kicked on two showers, and two lavs and still had plenty of hot water. But they deep south and the north will be different during winter.


North, like Chicago it pretty much the same year round 45 to 55 degree inlet water temps.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

RealCraftsMan said:


> ...But they deep south and the north will be different during winter.


That is an issue here. Our water comes mostly from local lakes and has a 40 to 50 degree differential in harsh winter months.


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## RealCraftsMan (Dec 27, 2011)

SewerRatz said:


> Big difference is the Eternal does not restrict the flow to maintain the set temperature. So if you exceed the flow rate to get the desired temperature, you will start getting warm to cold water.





SewerRatz said:


> North, like Chicago it pretty much the same year round 45 to 55 degree inlet water temps.





plbgbiz said:


> That is an issue here. Our water comes mostly from local lakes and has a 40 to 50 degree differential in harsh winter months.


 
Well as Ratz pointed out you will see some problems with multi users up north. Darn that's some cold water, I thought 70's was freezen!


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

RealCraftsMan said:


> Well as Ratz pointed out you will see some problems with multi users up north. Darn that's some cold water, I thought 70's was freezen!


 I was down in Mesa, AZ for a little bit, went to brush my teeth and tried to get cold water to rinse off my toothbrush, and the water would not get cold. Heck I was able to take a shower with out any hot water at all, thats how warm the cold water was. They don't need a water heater down there in the summer months, or they can get away with calling it a hot water heaters.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> Why yes, You can find the actual capacity published, right in the instruction manual.


Funny how this Chinese made water heater for the AO Smith group publishes for State label but hard to find under parent name label literature??


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

ZL700 said:


> Funny how this Chinese made water heater for the AO Smith group publishes for State label but hard to find under parent name label literature??


Its in the A.O. Smith instruction manual as well.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> OK...in all fairness I have read the specs and watched the video.
> 
> Aside from quirky things on the install that are easy to correct, what is the problem with the unit?



I personal don't think there is anything wrong with the unit. If I had gas at my home I'd install one in my own home. They are good units. Much better than tankless for one simple reason, they don't have issues like tankless do. Take away the specs and you look at reality tankless has pressure issues, cold sandwiches, scale problems, gas issues, etc. Eternal is a much simpler unit, and much better design. Tankless was designed for apartments in Japan. Eternal was designed with the American home in mind.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> They make claims that it is way better than any tankless heater out there. But once you read the specs for the same temp rise for the Eternal verses any tankless heater, they pretty much have the same GPM ratings. Big difference is the Eternal does not restrict the flow to maintain the set temperature. So if you exceed the flow rate to get the desired temperature, you will start getting warm to cold water. Where a tankless restricts to the flow to maintain the set temperature, so when you exceed the flow, by turning on to many fixtures you will still get the desired temperature but the flow rate will be split among the fixtures, so you will end up with a trickle.
> 
> This is why I like the A.O. Smith / State Hybrid, it uses a 25 gallon tank and a indirect heater, kind of like some of the boiler setups I see in most restaurants. First hour deliver of hot water is 189 gallons which matches most standard residential 75 gallon gas fired heaters.


Good luck with them, If the supply house gave me one of them, I would scrap it out.


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