# The fat lady sings



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Just had my first tankless sale that fell through 
only because the TAX CREDITS are over..

this fellow was hot to trot, he was throbbing and panting for
a good stiff tankless screwing, he wanted it bad...

I only had to mention the fact that they were not 
going to get that tastey tax incentive
and it was totally out of the equation... 

Installing a 50 gallon Bradford power vent on tuesday..

anyone else notice *the giant sucking sound* 
in your neck of the woods yet.:laughing::laughing:












.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I wouldn't notice as I usually try to talk people out of installing tankless heaters. When you only install one in place of a standard system, it doesn't provide enough hot water to run more than 2 fixtures at a time in winter. They're only rated for a 40 degree rise which around here is about 30 degrees too little. So even the 11gpm monster, is more like 7 or 8. 

That 7 or 8 will only run the dishwasher and a faucet at the same time. I try to make people understand how they truly work, and if they still want one I put it in. Usually after that conversation, they opt with the tank style heater.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> Just had my first tankless sale that fell through
> only because the TAX CREDITS are over..
> 
> this fellow was hot to trot, he was throbbing and panting for
> ...



So in reality it was your lack of ability in closing a easy sale that made it fall through? Not exactly something I would come on an open forum and brag about. :no: Just kidding, sell whatever you want.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

A, B, C. 


A, always. 

B, be. 

C, closing. 





Always be closing.










Don't make me call downtown.









Paul


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

I disagree mark. Modern energy efficient water heaters are here to stay. Not that I am a big fan of tankless, but I am a big fan of solar water heaters and heat pump water heaters. The fact is, in warm climates at least, these systems will pay for themselves and offer a "green", energy saving alternative that many people find attractive. And tankless themselves are still nice in that they offer "endless" hot water. My friend in Seattle just installed a Navien Tankless Condensing unit and he loves it. 98% thermal efficiency.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Indie said:


> So in reality it was your lack of ability in closing a easy sale that made it fall through? Not exactly something I would come on an open forum and brag about. :no: Just kidding, sell whatever you want.


You know he sabotaged the sale, probably talked the guy out of it himself, just so he could post his point on plumbing zone...I can hear it now.

Customer: I want a tankless water heater.

Mark: No you don't, they suck you know, and the tax credit is expired, it will be waste of money!

Nice close.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

service guy said:


> You know he sabotaged the sale, probably talked the guy out of it himself, just so he could post his point on plumbing zone


Well of course he did, he said it himself. Been counting the days down, just to have that pearl of a fact to help stop the sales of tankless. 



Master Mark said:


> J
> 
> I only had to mention the fact that they were not
> going to get that tastey tax incentive
> ...



Ok, if someone did a finacial comparison did it hurt or help the customer to talk them out of a tankless. 

Let's compare
A condensing Navien is 98% efficient.
How efficient is the Powervent being installed?

A Tankless maintained should last how long? 20 years
A Powervent will last how long?

Total install price of Tankless, plus maintenance= 
Powervent, with one replacement over the same time=

We can hash out the benefits later, I just want to know the cost over the expected life of a tankless in comparison to Powervent.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

And the funniest part of it is the tax credits were extended and you didn't even know it!

Federal Tax Credits Extended for 2011

The Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Act of 2010 signed by President Obama on December 17, 2010, extended tax credits for qualifying energy-efficient, residential water heaters and boilers placed in service between January 1, 2011 and December 31, 2011. The structure is similar to the 2009-2010 American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, however, the credit amount has changed. Water heaters are still required to have an energy factor >= 0.82 or a thermal efficiency >= 90%, and boilers must have an AFUE >= 95.

The tax credit is ONLY available for existing homes.
There is an overall cap of $500 for fiscal years 2006 – 2011 combined. If you have ever claimed this credit in the past, it counts toward the $500 cap (but does not affect the $1500 limit available for 2009 and 2010). So, for example, if you claimed $300 in 2007, you can only claim $200 in 2011; if you claimed $800 in 2009, you cannot claim any more credit.
Effective Dates
January 1, 2011 through December 31, 2011.

Product Qualifications and Credit Amount
Product: Tankless Water Heaters
Qualifications: Energy factor (EF) >= 0.82


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> I wouldn't notice as I usually try to talk people out of installing tankless heaters. When you only install one in place of a standard system, it doesn't provide enough hot water to run more than 2 fixtures at a time in winter. They're only rated for a 40 degree rise which around here is about 30 degrees too little. So even the 11gpm monster, is more like 7 or 8.
> 
> That 7 or 8 will only run the dishwasher and a faucet at the same time. I try to make people understand how they truly work, and if they still want one I put it in. Usually after that conversation, they opt with the tank style heater.


Your a lot off on this calcs

Even at 8 gpm, if a faucet runs at .5 gpm all hot and a typical dishwasher
Fills at .75 gpm, what happened to the 6.5 gpm not used that you say isn't there?


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

service guy said:


> You know he sabotaged the sale, probably talked the guy out of it himself, just so he could post his point on plumbing zone...I can hear it now.
> 
> Customer: I want a tankless water heater.
> 
> ...


 Coffee's for Closers !!!! :laughing: That movie is classic


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

ZL700 said:


> Your a lot off on this calcs
> 
> Even at 8 gpm, if a faucet runs at .5 gpm all hot and a typical dishwasher
> Fills at .75 gpm, what happened to the 6.5 gpm not used that you say isn't there?


 Where do you bet .5 gpm ? All the faucets I install are 2 gpm, and people like to take out the flow restricter in the aerator so they are getting more like 5 gpm. My dishwasher fills pretty fast but only uses a couple gallons of water, the big draw is the washing machine, mine draws a full 7 gpm. 

When I do sell tankless units I size it for the whole building, not just two or three fixtures. So many of the larger homes in my area require at least two units to handle the peak demand. The smaller homes a single unit will get them by as long as they are not doing the wash, dishes and a shower all at once. I just explain to them when doing the wash its best not to take a shower. I did have one guy have me put in a flow restricter on his washing machine so he can run it and take a shower, he said he did not care it takes his machine extra time to fill.

Indie, I have replace 20+ year old power vent water heaters. And I know for a fact these heaters never been flushed or delimed. A tankless that is not maintained will not last that long at all. Also the customers I have installed these units for (not Navien junk), have only seen about a $20 a month savings on a good basis. They have not changed their normal usage habits they tell me. So I am not sure if they really save as much as people try to make them out.

One thing I do like about tankless after the initial expense of the install is that when they do break or leak, you can easily replace the defective component, you do not have to buy a whole new heater unlike a tank type.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

A lav faucet full on, full hot? How often does that happen in a small lav bowl?

What your missing is quality Tankless units have motorized flow adjustment valves to regulate flow to maintain temp so even with that 7 gpm washer, if you start the shower and it's flowing 2 gpm hot, the washer now gets 5 gpm and fills a little slower, so what the problem with that?


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Ok, then.

What is the cost to install the BW Powervent?

What is the cost of installing a 98% Navien. 

If the difference is nominal, then the tankless is the better route. It would deliver endless hot water, and the tank would not, agreed?

How much does a 50 gallon BW Powervent cost?


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> A lav faucet full on, full hot? How often does that happen in a small lav bowl?
> 
> What your missing is quality Tankless units have motorized flow adjustment valves to regulate flow to maintain temp so even with that 7 gpm washer, if you start the shower and it's flowing 2 gpm hot, the washer now gets 5 gpm and fills a little slower, so what the problem with that?


 Because BOTH things go slower. It isn't like you get low flow out of the washer and full out of the shower. I put in the biggest single Rinnai made, 3/4 gas something like 11 gpm. I ran 2 lavs and a shower and it was a trickle out of all three. How many people do you have living in your home? If my wife is doing wash and washing dishes, it's nice to be able to take a shower if I wanted. 

Some inspectors here take the section of the code that says " all fixtures must be supplied with adaquate hot water" to mean that ALL fixtures need to be running simultainously. You can't do this with ONE tankless unit. Are you going to sell a customer on TWO of those?? 

They have their place don't get me wrong. A home addition with a large master bath works great on a tankless. Beyond that they are insufficient IMO.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Indie said:


> Ok, then.
> 
> What is the cost to install the BW Powervent?
> 
> ...


 Its about 750 dollars for a 50 gal bradford. A Navien is about 2K. You would need an AWUFL lot of energy savings.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

15-20 years on the payback for a tankless, that's all.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

So how many BTU's does it take to heat a gallon of water 70 degrees F with a tankless?

And how many BTU's does it take to heat a gallon of water 70 degrees F with a PowerVent?

I'm 54 and went to school back in the 60's and 70's please help me out with this new math....:whistling2:

I want to understand where this huge savings is coming from...:laughing:


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

It seems to me that if you doubled the insulation on a tank model, you would be more efficient than a tankless.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Now, wait just a minute here. There is no way the esteemed engineers would dare mislead the public.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*I did not tknow about that extention....*



ZL700 said:


> And the funniest part of it is the tax credits were extended and you didn't even know it!
> 
> Federal Tax Credits Extended for 2011
> 
> ...


 

well, golle gee..... 

I did not know about this.....
probably will have to call the customer up tomorrow and tell them I was mistaken.

glad I posted this so I did not look as though I was 
trying to deceive them....

I still think he is going the way of the power vent 

i..


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Or maybe pop in one of these bad boys with 95% efficiency...

http://bradfordwhite.com/images/shared/pdfs/specsheets/123-B.pdf

Then you won't have to worry about hot/cold sandwiches, minimum flows to turn on and all the fun aspects of tankless that people have to adapt to...


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Man, that things got a inspection port big enough for your head, prolly keep that thing in service for at least, I'd say 15-20 years.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> Its about 750 dollars for a 50 gal bradford. A Navien is about 2K. You would need an AWUFL lot of energy savings.


You might want to ask your supplier why they are overcharging you so much. I just priced on a couple weeks back and the 98% was 1100 with the isolation valves. 

Look I am not arguing that a powervent is not a better way to go, or even a standard heater is better, but that there is misleading information coming out on both sides. 

It seems that there are some mis-truths being told on both sides. Look sell what you want, but if someone wanted to give me several thousands of dollars, I sure wouldn't go out of my way to talk them out of it.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Yeah but ND, like I've said before the maint. costs along with the initial cost are way higher with a tankless. And if they need endless hot water there are really better alternatives available for less money overall.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Titan Plumbing said:


> Yeah but ND, like I've said before the maint. costs along with the initial cost are way higher with a tankless. And if they need endless hot water there are really better alternatives available for less money overall.



What are the better less expensive alternatives? Mark might be interested since he dislikes tankless so much.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Start with the link Redwood provided. I'll post another in a minute.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Here's another....http://www.bradfordwhite.com/products2.asp?id=1&product_id=168


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Or maybe pop in one of these bad boys with 95% efficiency...
> 
> http://bradfordwhite.com/images/shared/pdfs/specsheets/123-B.pdf
> 
> Then you won't have to worry about hot/cold sandwiches, minimum flows to turn on and all the fun aspects of tankless that people have to adapt to...





Titan Plumbing said:


> Here's another....http://www.bradfordwhite.com/products2.asp?id=1&product_id=168



Ok, I can accept that those might be reasonable alternatives. What is the cost of installation of those units. 

The one Red linked is nice, and it show a concentric vent termination, so you still have to run a pvc vent outside. 

Now, do you know what those units cost to install?


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Indie said:


> Ok, I can accept that those might be reasonable alternatives. What is the cost of installation of those units.
> 
> The one Red linked is nice, and it show a concentric vent termination, so you still have to run a pvc vent outside.
> 
> Now, do you know what those units cost to install?


Let's start with the one I posted. It takes a 4" vent, that's the ONLY difference from a regular 50 gal heater. Same gas service, same footprint, basically the same size, etc.

The price is basically the same as a tankless and the only upgrade would be the vent.......hands down, a better alternative, not just reasonable.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Titan Plumbing said:


> Let's start with the one I posted. It takes a 4" vent, that's the ONLY difference from a regular 50 gal heater. Same gas service, same footprint, basically the same size, etc.
> 
> The price is basically the same as a tankless and the only upgrade would be the vent.......hands down, a better alternative, not just reasonable.



Why is it hand down? What makes it hands down? The heater has a nice foot print. A tankless hangs on a wall. 

I truly want to know why you think its better. Like Mark, I love water heating, and anything that I can sell and offer better alternatives gives me a step up on the competition.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Indie said:


> Why is it hand down? What makes it hands down? The heater has a nice foot print. A tankless hangs on a wall.
> 
> I truly want to know why you think its better. Like Mark, I love water heating, and anything that I can sell and offer better alternatives gives me a step up on the competition.


It will work in any climate and still deliver the maximum amount of hot water, it doesn't need the annual service to maintain the warranty and it will in the end use less gas than a tankless. It's really not that hard to see the benefits.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Titan Plumbing said:


> It will work in any climate and still deliver the maximum amount of hot water, it doesn't need the annual service to maintain the warranty and it will in the end use less gas than a tankless. It's really not that hard to see the benefits.


Finally some valid points to work with. Now those are good reasons to install that heater. As I understand it, the water temp fluctuations can be troublesome.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

ND, those points were all on the link I provided, I provided that link so I didn't have to "sell you" on the validity of the heater, I know it will work and is a better alternative. I wanted to let you see for yourself the link, not just my words.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

There are a lot of options and none of them are perfect for all installations. The one Titan posted is nice but the new vent might be enough to kill it. What do you do when the heater is in a multi-story building and means running 35' of new 4" b vent? A direct vent heater would make more sense. If it's just a matter of popping though a garage roof covered with composition shingles then yeah, it's a pretty good option. 

The key is to know (really KNOW) a number of options and to fit right solution to each situation. 






Paul


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Indie said:


> Finally some valid points to work with. Now those are good reasons to install that heater. As I understand it, the water temp fluctuations can be troublesome.


In the South the temp of the water is not as big a concern as it may be for you or say Redwood, but, the hard water kills the tankless, plus as was said earlier they will NOT service an entire house at once. And as the code actually states we are supposed to size our system as if all fixtures are being utilized at once...it will never happen with one tankless. Now in the real big homes here, we will put several units in to comensate for this, but that is usually done in the construction phase, not in a retrofit situation.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

rocksteady said:


> There are a lot of options and none of them are perfect for all installations. The one Titan posted is nice but the new vent might be enough to kill it. What do you do when the heater is in a multi-story building and means running 35' of new 4" b vent? A direct vent heater would make more sense. If it's just a matter of popping though a garage roof covered with composition shingles then yeah, it's a pretty good option.
> 
> The key is to know (really KNOW) a number of options and to fit right solution to each situation.
> 
> ...


You can call me, Mike if you like............:thumbup:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Tell you what Indie....

Your hellbent on selling and installing tankless....

Why not install one of these cats azz Navien tankless units in your own home then try it out for a while....

Then after a decent try out period ask yourself if you should inflict this stuff on your customers....

If you feel really warm and fuzzy about it then go for it....

If you would have been PO'd at a plumber for recommending it to you then at least you won't have a customer out there badmouthing your new business...

I'm Just Saying....


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

tungsten plumb said:


> Coffee's for Closers !!!! :laughing: That movie is classic


3rd place is you're fired!
Haven't seen that flick in years!
Makes me want to watch it now...


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Tell you what Indie....
> 
> Your hellbent on selling and installing tankless....
> 
> ...


 I agree with this totally. It may be a more efficent system to use one tankless instead of a tank heater but, the flow isn't close to what the tank one is. I don't want a customer calling me up a week later saying I must have screwed something up because when he runs too much stuff his hot water is at a trickle. 

I would rather fully explain how a tankless works, and if the customer is still interested I would have them sign the explination because I don't want to get in a battle when they're unhappy with it. Don't get me wrong I love instantanous heaters, in commercial applications. I put one in that had a 2 1/2" outlet and the water came out hot as fast as it could come in. Of course that heater ran off a bank of steam boilers..... If you have high pressure steam to feed one, it's a great system. If not, it's marginal at best (unless you install multiple units.)


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

This is another one of those issues that gets everyones blood boiling. Are tankless heaters more efficient? Of course they are, but are they practical and furthermore what is the payback? I say, go ahead and find a brand that you can get parts and support for and sell the damn things. Install it to code and the instructions and make sure the customer fully understands the limitations. From there, start an annual program to service and de-scale them and you get some added income. I don't like them. I still remember Paloma Pak and ELM Aquastar which were very very similar to what's out there now. Some were service nightmares, some lasted 6 or 7 years and I'd bet there are a few still out there operating just fine. Thing is that like em or not, there ain't no going back. YOU might as well be the guy making the sale as the other guy. 

Tax Credits: 5 years ago I put a new Buderus Logano125 oil fired in my own home. Next weeK I'm upgrading to the Logano125BE 91% efficient because with the tax credit I can buy the darn thing for about eleven hundred bucks.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*Inflicting damage on the customer....*

that is a great way to put it.... you are inflicting damage on someone
and you are probably going to do damage to your reputation too...some day soon because of it...

temp outdies is 8 right now.... water comming into my house is damn cold today..

the unit will only save about 8 bucks a month.....* thats a fact......*

put a blanket on your normal heater and you cut that number down to probably 5 bucks....

I tell them to just go to my web site and read it all .....

but now I got to take out the end of the tax credits for this year..

I am glad I started this thread, 
cause I did not know they exteded the tax credits on these pigs...

INDE anything you need to know about the tankless go here

http://weilhammerplumbing.com/houseofhorrors/


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Here is a spec sheet on a power vent version of the unit that Titan Plumbing posted. http://www.bradfordwhite.com/images/shared/pdfs/specsheets/119-B.pdf I have already installed the 25 gallon unit the people are super pleased with it. It fills their soaker tub with out any issues and with hot water to spare. I removed a single Navien unit they they where sold on, they where very upset with the seller/installer, that he did not explain to them they can not have the soaker tube filling, while someone is taking a shower in the other bathroom. The water supply cut down a whole lot.

BTW ZL here the largest tankless other than getting into the commercial units (199K BTU), only provide 4.8 gpm with our incoming water temps. With that you can see how a single unit will not provide the flow needed for a two bathroom house. It barely can handle a single bath house with the occupants changing their usage habits. (not doing laundry while the shower)


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Some people who want a tankless are like kids who want a puppy. If they do not completely understand the pros & cons, they will be disappointed and blame the plumber for their mistake.

Most of our customers who ask about tankless do an about face when they hear the cost. That in itself usually stops the conversation in it's tracks.

With three kids getting very close to the teenage years, I DEFINITELY don't want to give them endless hot water. I can very clearly envision hour long showers for each. :blink:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

No, the water takes the path of least resistance and goes to the washer.

If the shower valve is a pressure balancing type, you get to stand under a trickle of water until the washer is done filling.

If the valve is an older type and doesn't have a balancing spool, you just get blasted with cold water.



ZL700 said:


> A lav faucet full on, full hot? How often does that happen in a small lav bowl?
> 
> What your missing is quality Tankless units have motorized flow adjustment valves to regulate flow to maintain temp so even with that 7 gpm washer, if you start the shower and it's flowing 2 gpm hot, *the washer now gets 5 gpm and fills a little slower*, so what the problem with that?


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

I don't really like tankless all that much but the heat pump water heaters are really interesting. Basically a heat pump water heater is an electric water heater with an airconditioner stuck on top if it, that dumps the heat into the water instead of dumping outside! In warm areas, it will save money on both air conditioning AND water heating. Instead of producing heat, it just moves it from the air to the water...now THAT is efficient.

Tankless, can be efficient, but if you look at the numbers, the savings isn't huge with most models.  I think tankless is more a combination of factors....save some energy, save some space, have endless hot water, etc. But, they have to be sized correctly, and a small buffer tank and recirc line is a good idea for removing the cold water sandwich factor.

In really cold climates, forget tankless, I still think an indirect water heater piped to the boiler is the best choice.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

IIRC the average pay back period for a tankless is about 14 years provided it does not have major service issues and then the payback goes to nil. 

I like them for camps. we have a crap load of summer homes on the lakes around here and they work fine because the owners don't expect or need massive amounts of hot water. Plus they save valuable floor space and a lot of them are installed outside with unions so in the winter we spin the unions, drain the unit and set it in the camp until spring. Course, most of them folks be rich folks.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*from another thread.....*

*a post from zl700 *

For 2011, the Federal Tax Credit for energy efficiency drops to 10%, up to a $500 maximum

The 2011 tax credit reverted to* 2005-2008 levels. Anyone who previously took advantage of the program can’t apply for incentives that exceed $500.* IE If you claimed $500 between 2005 – 2008 on a previous energy efficiency project, or at least $500 tax credit from 2009 – 2010, you are ineligible for the 2011 energy efficiency tax credit.

If you used say $200 of the $500 energy efficiency tax credit from 2005 – 2008, and did not utilize the 2009 – 2010 energy efficiency tax credit, you would still have a $300 credit available.


the average paybackk on a tankless according to consumeraffairs.com is about 20 years...useing their research

according to another fellow they have kept it alive barely.... 

the max of 500 bucks is a joke... 

it makes the pay back out to a lot longer than the average of 20 years...... probably closer to 30...

someone else can try to figure out the math here

thanks ZL700


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

I like my tankless water heater, and will not go back to a tank type unit.


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## PlumberJake (Nov 15, 2010)

I've installed dozens of tankless. My view is that you MUST educate your customers in the different abilities of tankless versus conventional water heaters. I have only received kudos from my tankless customers, but that's because I make them aware of their limitations.
Jake

Ps. I am intrigued by the high btu tank heaters posted earlier. Time to do some research.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

PlumberJake said:


> My view is that you MUST educate your customers in the different abilities of tankless versus conventional water heaters.


Do you gloss over the inabilities? :whistling2:


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## PlumberJake (Nov 15, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Do you gloss over the inabilities? :whistling2:


Id rather not get into semantics.
Obviously, some of us like tankless and some don't.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Well stated Jake. Nice word usage.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

PlumberJake said:


> I've installed dozens of tankless. My view is that you MUST educate your customers in the different abilities of tankless versus conventional water heaters. I have only received kudos from my tankless customers, but that's because I make them aware of their limitations.
> Jake
> 
> Ps. I am intrigued by the high btu tank heaters posted earlier. Time to do some research.


100% agreement on the educating the customer thing. Otherwise you are going to get about a dozen call backs and a pissed off customer. What is strange though is that even when you explain the limitations, possible problems and next to zero pay back, they still want the foolish thing. I think its a lot like the Prius owners. It ain't the car, it's being able to show others how much you "care" What a crock.


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## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

I've put in a fair number of tankless heaters (maybe a dozen). I've got one at my house. As far as I know, every heater I have put in is working as described during the initial sales call. Despite my very, very frank description of the heaters prior to install, I think some of my customers were disappointed.

I have stood in front of many tankless heaters that I was called out to repair. Repairing them was never fun. I have one I was called out for that "honks". It "honks" because there isn't enough gas to operate the unit. When I say not enough gas, I mean the gas pressure is so low, and his service is so small, THERE IS NO REGULATOR TO THE CUSTOMER'S HOUSE. Needless to say, he should have never had a tankless heater and it still "honks" to this day.

I have come to the following conclusions. If you live in a part of the country where it stays pretty warm, then maybe, MAYBE, a tankless heater can work for you. Heck, you can throw it up on the outside of the house.

If you don't live in a warm part of the country, then a tankless heater becomes way less appealing and only needs to be considered for a handful of reasons.

1. Space. If all you have is a tiny closet, then maybe a tankless is for you, but I would still look into other options first.

2. Large hot water demands. If you have a large family, and you are always last to the party, then maybe spending the money for a two heater system with an accompanying tank for recirculation is just what you need. If you have a human car wash (body sprays and shower heads that require an extra drain or two), then maybe you can use a similar system. If you have a dorm or hotel and can replace an inefficient boiler with a battery of tankless heaters, they might make sense.

That is about it. I don't think it makes financial sense for tankless in colder states (unless you have a HUGE demand). I don't think it is particularly green considering the maintenance when you have the Vertex or that Bradford White heater Redwood was posting about as options.

This is where I am at with tankless at this point.

--Will


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## Mpls Jay (Jan 1, 2011)

RW Plumbing said:


> I wouldn't notice as I usually try to talk people out of installing tankless heaters. When you only install one in place of a standard system, it doesn't provide enough hot water to run more than 2 fixtures at a time in winter. They're only rated for a 40 degree rise which around here is about 30 degrees too little. So even the 11gpm monster, is more like 7 or 8.
> 
> That 7 or 8 will only run the dishwasher and a faucet at the same time. I try to make people understand how they truly work, and if they still want one I put it in. Usually after that conversation, they opt with the tank style heater.


Incoming water is about 37 degrees right now.


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## Eric (Jan 10, 2011)

rocksteady said:


> A, B, C.
> 
> 
> A, always.
> ...


 

:laughing::laughing::laughing::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Too much to respond to, not that anybody even asked for my opinion, so hopefully this will be the short version.

I have 50 or so installs (mostly Noritz) and everybody loves these things except for one woman. I can't reproduce the problem she says she is having (and I have made several attempts) and everything checks out on the unit. I'm not sure what to do for her because I can't find a problem. Everyone else for whom we have installed these units absolutely loves them. Consequently, we love them.

As for the "party being over" and the "giant sucking sound", I have to admit that I was afraid that that was exactly what was going to happen. I was bummed because tankless has become a significant part of our revenue. Well it turns out that although we have plenty of "fat ladies" in Alabama, none of them seem to be singing the tankless "death song" just yet. Monday and Tuesday will bring my 5th and 6th installs so far this year, which if anything puts us slightly ahead of last years pace :thumbup:. So go figure. No idea if it will continue but so far so good.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*good to hear*



smellslike$tome said:


> Too much to respond to, not that anybody even asked for my opinion, so hopefully this will be the short version.
> 
> I have 50 or so installs (mostly Noritz) and everybody loves these things except for one woman. I can't reproduce the problem she says she is having (and I have made several attempts) and everything checks out on the unit. I'm not sure what to do for her because I can't find a problem. Everyone else for whom we have installed these units absolutely loves them. Consequently, we love them.
> 
> As for the "party being over" and the "giant sucking sound", I have to admit that I was afraid that that was exactly what was going to happen. I was bummed because tankless has become a significant part of our revenue. Well it turns out that although we have plenty of "fat ladies" in Alabama, none of them seem to be singing the tankless "death song" just yet. Monday and Tuesday will bring my 5th and 6th installs so far this year, which if anything puts us slightly ahead of last years pace :thumbup:. So go figure. No idea if it will continue but so far so good.


 
sounds like you are doing ok in alabama with the tankless.......no blips or downsides..

I wonder if due to mass advertiseing on the radio and elsewhere the tankless heaters have become part of the mainstream mindset now ....
and maybe they will still buy them no matter what the down side is.....

 as others have stated its more feasable in warmer waters....

out of curousity, what is the average ballpark price to install them over in Alabama


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> Too much to respond to, not that anybody even asked for my opinion, so hopefully this will be the short version.
> 
> I have 50 or so installs (mostly Noritz) and everybody loves these things except for one woman. I can't reproduce the problem she says she is having (and I have made several attempts) and everything checks out on the unit. I'm not sure what to do for her because I can't find a problem. Everyone else for whom we have installed these units absolutely loves them. Consequently, we love them.
> 
> As for the "party being over" and the "giant sucking sound", I have to admit that I was afraid that that was exactly what was going to happen. I was bummed because tankless has become a significant part of our revenue. Well it turns out that although we have plenty of "fat ladies" in Alabama, none of them seem to be singing the tankless "death song" just yet. Monday and Tuesday will bring my 5th and 6th installs so far this year, which if anything puts us slightly ahead of last years pace :thumbup:. So go figure. No idea if it will continue but so far so good.


Smells, It sounds like you'll do fine with them after all in your climate electric tankless for a whole house may be a viable option...

But up here in the frozen north with wintertime incoming cold water temperatures in the slushy mid 30's range, we have a much tougher job providing customer satisfaction with tankless installs and really when it all comes down to it the only happy users will be the ones who want an unlimited supply of hot water to a car wash shower system...


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Smells, It sounds like you'll do fine with them after all in your climate electric tankless for a whole house may be a viable option...
> 
> But up here in the frozen north with wintertime incoming cold water temperatures in the slushy mid 30's range, we have a much tougher job providing customer satisfaction with tankless installs and really when it all comes down to it the only happy users will be the ones who want an unlimited supply of hot water to a car wash shower system...


 



I am no expert with tankless. But I read years ago that they work best in Hawaii and South Florida because the incoming water temps all year are fairly warm, so a tankless will perform well.

Or if they are used up north, they work fine in a hunting lodge or some other application where the need for lots of hot water is not great.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> sounds like you are doing ok in alabama with the tankless.......no blips or downsides..
> 
> I wonder if due to mass advertiseing on the radio and elsewhere the tankless heaters have become part of the mainstream mindset now ....
> and maybe they will still buy them no matter what the down side is.....
> ...


I can't speak for other companies but mine start at about $3700 for the OD unit with a preexisting 110v outdoor outlet, close to gas and water. Average is closer to 4k and I generally prefer the indoor NR98DVC. I'm installing my first two propane units on Monday. Those will require quite a bit of additional gas piping through a crawl space and the location of the home is about 2 hours from my office (I would ordinarily never go that far but the guy was willing to pay a 2 hour dispatch fee to get me out there just to look at them so I did) so the ticket comes in just over 10k. The man wants them, what can I say.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Smells, It sounds like you'll do fine with them after all in your climate electric tankless for a whole house may be a viable option...
> 
> But up here in the frozen north with wintertime incoming cold water temperatures in the slushy mid 30's range, we have a much tougher job providing customer satisfaction with tankless installs and really when it all comes down to it the only happy users will be the ones who want an unlimited supply of hot water to a car wash shower system...


I've never installed an electric model (except for like a little e-max point of use unit) and probably never would. They just don't cut it.

With the maintenance monitor I can check incoming water temp very easily on these units. In the dead of winter we are consistently at 50* F. Recently I saw 44* F on one unit and that was the first time ever. We can drive 2 showers simultaneously 24 hrs a day if we want with the NR98. Actually we can drive 3 showers with a very slight decrease in flow rate which is really not even discernible. This is at a temp rise of 60* F which would be the diff between 50* incoming and 110*. Most people seem to be fine with 110*. I make sure that they understand that there is no longer any need to overheat the water. I explain that they should shower with hot only on older 2 and 3 handle valves and all the way open on pressure balanced valves. Just experiment with the outlet temp setting until you can use hot only or if you have to fine tune it use as little cold as possible. It works for them and people really love them. Not sure how it would be with lower incoming temps, say 40 or below, but we would probably sell more dual units for those who could afford them.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

I may be wrong but it seems to me that probably the biggest objection coming from plumbers about tankless is "what is the payback". Don't get me wrong, it's fine with me if you want to look at it in those terms. I don't need any more competition selling tankless. The thing is though when you consider it that way you assume everyone else does too and that's just not the case. My easiest sales come from people who are tired of running out of hot water. If you strictly consider which costs less money in the long run then the tank vs. tankless argument MAY BE a valid one, especially since the 30% is gone. I haven't been installing them for 20 years and have never observed a 20 year old tankless in the wild so I can only go by what others say. The thing is you can never predict exactly why someone is interested in tankless and you shouldn't assume that you can. I've sold these units before to people for no other reason than the fact that they were all hot and bothered for that 9 sq. ft. of real estate previously occupied by their old tank. Whatever the reason is, it makes no difference to me. I usually ask why they want it, if it's to save money, it's a tougher road, if it's because they are tired of running out then I know it's all but in the bag.

My closing percentage last year on tankless consults was something like 43% and I can look any man in the eye and tell you that I never once lied to anyone or even mislead them or even kept silent and let them believe something about tankless that I knew was not true. You don't have to be dishonest about this technology to sell it. It is what it is and people want it. I let them have it.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*wow... thats pretty good..*



smellslike$tome said:


> I can't speak for other companies but mine start at about $3700 for the OD unit with a preexisting 110v outdoor outlet, close to gas and water. Average is closer to 4k and I generally prefer the indoor NR98DVC. I'm installing my first two propane units on Monday. Those will require quite a bit of additional gas piping through a crawl space and the location of the home is about 2 hours from my office (I would ordinarily never go that far but the guy was willing to pay a 2 hour dispatch fee to get me out there just to look at them so I did) so the ticket comes in just over 10k. The man wants them, what can I say.


10 k for two of them.... thats pretty good...

thank you for the info... most times I tell a customer that they usually cost about 4 k they think I am lieing to them, cause they say that they just saw one at lowes for 600 bucks...

I tell them to call BEN


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> 10 k for two of them.... thats pretty good...
> 
> thank you for the info... most times I tell a customer that they usually cost about 4 k they think I am lieing to them, cause they say that they just saw one at lowes for 600 bucks...
> 
> I tell them to call BEN


 
That's good! :laughing: For $600 at ol' Ben they might get a new Moen Integra kitchen faucet installed but they're going to be in for a rude awakening once they start talking tankless. 







Paul


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## express (Nov 22, 2008)

Every time I go to size a tankless I have to up size the gas pipe, that usually blows the budget.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*everything about tankless blows*



express said:


> Every time I go to size a tankless I have to up size the gas pipe, that usually blows the budget.


everything about the tankless installations blows the budget...when you talk of 4000 for one the numbers dont make any sense at all....

because of the mass advertiseing on these things their are just a lot of folks that are willing to take a leap of faith... and will pay anything to have one...:yes::yes:


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

So true, why would the plumber/installer get so wrapped up about payback, it's not their money. A businessman will be thinking about paycheck. Smells like money has hit all posts right on.

This thing about Tankless in the north? Then explain to me besides Florida which is over 60% electric, why is it then industry shows states like NY, PA, MI, MN, CT as having the largest shipment and sales of Tankless?

The HVAC companies have brought on licensed plumbers and installing Tankless right along side the new furnace and I dont think the plumbing industry is even aware of the numbers. They never sell on payback, but efficiency, high tech, rebates, and most important, what the customer desires.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*whatever your little heart desires......*

the marketing gurus out there have created an intence desire for them....especially amongst the DIY guys... 

 and all it takes is getting people to desire them,,, 

its the same with everything in life....

of course everything you desire in life has a down-side usually after you have gotten what you desired, you find out the hard way that its not what you thought it would be....

Its just like desireing to make love to a beautiful lady, you do everything to finally win her love, with romance, money, cars, roses.. rings ect....... 

but just wait about a year down the road and you are totally bored with the whole thing and you wonder what ever made you go after the spoiled hag in the first place...... 
.:laughing::laughing::yes::yes:


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> 10 k for two of them.... thats pretty good...
> 
> thank you for the info... most times I tell a customer that they usually cost about 4 k they think I am lieing to them, cause they say that they just saw one at lowes for 600 bucks...
> 
> I tell them to call BEN


10K is not normal for me. This ticket was higher than normal largely due to the distance I have to go and the amount of gas piping. Usually dual units will come in somewhere between $7500 and $8000.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> 10 k for two of them.... thats pretty good...
> 
> thank you for the info... most times I tell a customer that they usually cost about 4 k they think I am lieing to them, cause they say that they just saw one at lowes for 600 bucks...
> 
> I tell them to call BEN


I get the same thing. You just have to educate them. They see some undersized piece of crap for $600 and wonder why you want 4k. I only sell what I believe to be the best quality on the market to start with, which can't be had for $600. Also, they are looking at a price for THE WATER HEATER only. How about the vent kit (for indoor models), iso vlv kit, electrical, gas upgrades, pipe box (for od models), water piping, and oh yeah, we don't install them for free. Generally those folks are not worth a lot of time because they really have no idea what they are getting into. I used to go on every single consult because I just don't like to price anything over the phone. With tankless I sometimes have to amend this especially if I'm the one taking the call. If they just hammer away on the phone about "how much? How much?" then I will usually just tell them and that's the end of it. I don't like doing this but sometimes it saves me a couple of hours. Occasionally even when price is their focus and after I've told them, they surprise me and still want me to come out. When this happens it usually turns out well.


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