# Why you believe sales should be removed from the plumbing process



## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I am always asking people “Why” so that I understand better and am perfectly clear with the message. Once I understand the why portion I now have the ability to adapt or adjust. I need clarity and understanding why people do not believe that sales or additional sales should not be part of a plumber’s process. This is to give me insight and not to convince you to accept sales. I will ask the moderators to remove any post that attacks any person’s idea or reason. I want to know. Please share your ideas with me.

Thanks for your honesty.


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> I am always asking people &#147;Why&#148; so that I understand better and am perfectly clear with the message. Once I understand the why portion I now have the ability to adapt or adjust. I need clarity and understanding why people do not believe that sales or additional sales should not be part of a plumber&#146;s process. This is to give me insight and not to convince you to accept sales. I will ask the moderators to remove any post that attacks any person&#146;s idea or reason. I want to know. Please share your ideas with me.
> 
> Thanks for your honesty.


It all depends on the type of plumbing shop you have and the type of work you do

If you are doing new commercial work on a bid job there is no sales involved

Also if you have a busy shop and you are booked up well in advance for the future having the guys finding more work could throw a monkey wrench into the whole schedule

Sent from my portable office....yes I am at work


----------



## surfdog (Oct 20, 2011)

What are you selling?


----------



## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

Richard Hilliard said:


> I need clarity and understanding why people do not believe that sales or additional sales should not be part of a plumber’s process.


To be clear. Are you asking... do not believe/should not be part = believe/should be part? I'm a little lost on the double negative question.

Either way, a good plumber whether flat rate or hourly is going to make suggestions based on knowledge and experience. The more experienced a person is with a given situation, the more confidently they can assess and recommend additional work or improvements. Those lacking experience and knowledge just aren't able to make those suggestions.

That skill is developed over time. A good tradesman will always offer the best advice for the client. I don't consider it sales for me, I consider it part of what they pay me for. They can however choose to accept or decline the extra work or upgrade based on their own situation.

Is this what you are asking?


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Richard Hilliard said:


> I will ask the moderators to remove any post that attacks any person’s idea or reason.


Just as we do in any other thread. Although, 1 person might call it an attack, while another is just having a spirited discussion....


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

The word "sales" used in conjunction with plumbing in many cases has a negative connotation, at least to the plumber. However we all "sell" something, whether it's ourselves or additional plumbing.

I do believe our clients/customers rely on us as PROFESSIONALS to point out additional needs or to give them information needed to make an educated decision. These suggestions can be made in such a way that they are considered a "sales pitch" by the plumber, but in reality your client/customer is very appreciative. And in most cases will allow you to do the additional work as suggested.

IMHO, selling something to your client/customer is an integral part of our business and if you don't...you're doing them a disservice. I make suggestions to my clients every time I visit their home/office, and it might surprise you how many times they call later asking me to schedule the suggested repair/replacement, and in many cases agree to having it done while I'm there, time permitting of course. 

Those who don't agree with the term "selling" or the philosophy...I ask this question. If your client/customer is a repeat/long term...just how did they come to calling you back? It was because you "sold" yourself to them.

Selling does not have to be a conscious process and your client/customer may not even realize you're "selling"...heck, in most cases we don't realize we are...

And as far as your client/customer being a long term or repeat client. Lets say they came from your Father; Well, I can assure you they will not stay with you if they are not "sold" on you as a plumber/person. It matters not how great a plumber we may be.


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> *Why you believe sales should be removed from the plumbing process?*/QUOTE]
> 
> They are afraid.
> 
> ...


----------



## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

I was going to reply with a well thought out and 100% accurate answer but I'll just have to refer back to Titan's post because I think that pretty much sums it all up.







Paul


----------



## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

MarkToo said:


> To be clear. Are you asking... do not believe/should not be part = believe/should be part? I'm a little lost on the double negative question.
> 
> Either way, a good plumber whether flat rate or hourly is going to make suggestions based on knowledge and experience. The more experienced a person is with a given situation, the more confidently they can assess and recommend additional work or improvements. Those lacking experience and knowledge just aren't able to make those suggestions.
> 
> ...


I would like to know why someone does not believe that sales or upselling is not acceptable in their business. Add on sales meaniing you are there to fix a toilet and you end up selling a kitchen faucet while you are there.Upgrading a person into a new toilet is selling however frequently that is the only real solution verse a repair. ie no brainer to suggest.


----------



## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

ILPlumber said:


> Just as we do in any other thread. Although, 1 person might call it an attack, while another is just having a spirited discussion....


 
Difference being I will send a request where the moderators may think it is harmless. I want complete honesty and no opposition to what any 1 person states. I really want to know and the reason I want to know; there will be a time I must be able to provide help guiding another person and the only way I can do that is too become prepared for any reason, resistance ,or objection to working with sales in the future including my own hire.


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Difference being I will send a request where the moderators may think it is harmless. I want complete honesty and no opposition to what any 1 person states. I really want to know and the reason I want to know; there will be a time I must be able to provide help guiding another person and the only way I can do that is too become prepared for any reason, resistance ,or objection to working with sales in the future including my own hire.


Richard,
No opposition to what any person states will never happen here unless it is on a completely voluntary basis. If you want complete control might I suggest doing it in a venue where you have complete control and want to invest the time to do so.

I'll gladly take this discussion to pm's so as not to clutter your thread more.

At the end of the day we go back to the posting rules. Period...

Sent from my iPad using PlumbingZone


----------



## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

Richard Hilliard said:


> I want complete honesty and no opposition to what any 1 person states.


1. Without criticism, any idea is potentially garbage.
2. There are no absolutes.
3. Open debate is healthy and necessary.


----------



## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

I can't imagine why anyone would not understand upselling. At least basic upselling as Richard described with the Kitchen fct should be a no brainer.
Unless I have full confidence in a plumbers expertise and attention to detail I wouldn't want him pricing a repipe for instance. But would expect him/her to forward the request to me and if the job is landed a nice bonus would be applied to the referral.


----------



## surfdog (Oct 20, 2011)

Im missing the point for me to hire a salesman is out of the question,the sales lead for me is the bid, hourly rate, once we get the job its up to us to suggest other things for the customer, I guess basically Im saying what Titan said.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

*water, meet fish, come barrel*

The missing point in all of this... is build a skeleton of framework where the selling disappears and the selling ends. The direct path are those who come to you that already are convinced the move is solidified for what they want.

This just happened 20 minutes ago for me.

Phone call, new customer... is willing to wait for "when" I want to arrive. 

You tell me how I'm doing it...


----------



## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

Nearly all business books, marketing etc talk about how sales are part of any business no sales = no business. People have different views on this.

With all respect to everyone, I believe sales is part of what we do some may like it some hate sales. We may be selling and not realize it when making recommendations. While others know that they are selling that new faucet and intentionally doing it, some call it upgrading or recommendation the true is you just sold something.

As a business owner I want my guys making recommendations that are need it. Now does the customer need a repair or a replacement? Well is the customer looking for a solution or a band-aid? Or is the customer looking for handy hack type of work? I recommend solutions not band-aids and I don't do mickey mouse jobs you can call it sales or recommendations!


----------



## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

MarkToo said:


> 1. Without criticism, any idea is potentially garbage.
> 2. There are no absolutes.
> 3. Open debate is healthy and necessary.


 
I think some of you do not understand my request. I am asking for HOMEWORK. I am asking for you to give me your reasons to not sell additional work. It is for me to figure out how to answer people in the future and get better prepared for the different reasons that may be thrown at me.

I do not want the members to think they will receive retribution from those who believe sales do belong. I do not want those who believe sales is a way and to go after them blooding up the forum or vice versa. It is strictly for educational purposes. Feel free to send me your thoughts in email in strict confidence.


----------



## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> The missing point in all of this... is build a skeleton of framework where the selling disappears and the selling ends. The direct path are those who come to you that already are convinced the move is solidified for what they want.
> 
> This just happened 20 minutes ago for me.
> 
> ...


 
What? You did nothing but book a call.There is no idea what is the next step.

psst it never ends. Once a job is sold a new beginning is started


----------



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> The missing point in all of this... is build a skeleton of framework where the selling disappears and the selling ends. The direct path are those who come to you that already are convinced the move is solidified for what they want.
> 
> This just happened 20 minutes ago for me.
> 
> ...


 
Dunbar ........ probably because you are one of the 
more honest folks in your area that they call you 
you might come across as obnoxius sometimes, 
but you are honest..and word gets around fast 


Also Your videos are like a "beacon of bullshi/' and people 
know you are not trying to sell them anything and you are just being yourself in the videos,,, their are certainly no slick talking 
salesmen trying to sell something in your videos...hell no.... :thumbup:
its all only instructional stuff...
..... this draws them in like flies to a fresh pile of manure

that is why they call you..:thumbup:
--------------------------------------------------------------



*Actually richard....* Sales are important but
 just it depends on who is making the money.....

If is is something that I see and know it is a necessary 
option that I should present to the customer.. then it is ok.... 

If it is something that I am gonna make a 50% comission on and I am looking for any reason to sell them some up-charge so I get a bigger paycheck and also my boss is happy, and that is how I earn my living working for this company ....

then it is very questionable...


----------



## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> What? You did nothing but book a call.There is no idea what is the next step.
> 
> psst it never ends. Once a job is sold a new beginning is started


I don't want to be late for supper tonight. It's 11 AM and I have 3 wtr htrs yet to do, and I have yet another hour before I'm complete on the tasks I was called out to do. I'm gonna pretend I didn't see that gas flex passing through the furnace cabinet next to me as I repair this wtr htr.
This customer is griping about how expensive the task I'm performing is so I darn well gonna keep my mouth shut that the rusted tub drain and overflow trim could be replaced easily. Hope this is more what you're looking for Richard.


----------



## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

I'm po'd at boss so I'm only going to do the minimum tasks I'm sent to do.


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Epox said:


> I'm po'd at boss so I'm only going to do the minimum tasks I'm sent to do.


 






Tsk, tsk, tsk. You're going to get spanked for that comment........:yes:


----------



## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> Tsk, tsk, tsk. You're going to get spanked for that comment........:yes:


HAHA, Then I'm sure not gonna say I ignored upselling to a newer Kitchen fct because at lunch my sweetie gave me a sexy wink and whispered be home early.:thumbup: (Not that this example ever happens LMAO)


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Epox said:


> HAHA, Then I'm sure not gonna say I ignored upselling to a newer Kitchen fct because at lunch my sweetie gave me a sexy wink and whispered be home early.:thumbup: (Not that this example ever happens LMAO)


Yep. Add this one to the list RH:

They just want to do their call and go home because they think there will always be another call tomorrow.


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Richard 

I think some guys are getting confused as to selling...

Some of these guys are one man shops and think all they have to do is answer the phone and they are some kind of marketing genuis......

Its not hard to fill the day for one man.... especially if you are the cook, dishwash washer, bus boy and waiter


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Epox said:


> I'm po'd at boss so I'm only going to do the minimum tasks I'm sent to do.


That's another one to add to the list.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Richard Hilliard said:


> What? You did nothing but book a call.There is no idea what is the next step.
> 
> psst it never ends. Once a job is sold a new beginning is started





OldSchool said:


> Richard
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 











Both of you missed the boat, the boat dock and the vehicle that took you to the lake by the statements I made. :laughing:


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> ...Some of these guys are one man shops and think all they have to do is answer the phone and they are some kind of marketing genuis......


There is a whole set of encyclopedias that could be written on that statement. It rates up there with the hardworking men/woman that do not know the difference between operating a business as opposed to owning a job.

But that would be a whole 'nother thread.


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Is that right Dunbar


----------



## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> Richard
> 
> I think some guys are getting confused as to selling...
> 
> ...


Old school, you nailed it.

I am a 1 man show, and I simply can barely handle all the work I have now, so every day I hope & pray my phone don't ring. (NO JOKE).

I do not want to hire any employees, cuz I've been down that road many times. The light at the end of the tunnel there, is turned off, so I don't see all the profits, & excess materials, being thrown out the door.

I don't want to take on more, & buy tools, & a truck for someone else to abuse, or maybe check the dip stick, to see if there is oil, every leap year.

I make more money now, way more, than I did when I had 2 guys full time. I always heard the rule, that unless you have a minimum of 5 guys, you can't make enough to replace yourself. I am my #1 assett, & when I had 2 guys, I would spend alot more of my days & nights, lining up the next job, that they didn't appreciate, & could beech about.

Now the biggest reason why I don't want more sales,BECAUSE I AM PERFECTLY HAPPY DOING THE AMOUNT OF WORK I DO NOW, & I CHARGE ENOUGH TO MAKE A GOOD LIVING WITHOUT RUNNING AROUND LIKE A 1 LEGGED MAN IN AN ASS KICKING CONTEST.

Everywhere I go, someone needs a plumber, & they find me, I don't find them. All is by my reputation. Not saying I am a better plumber than anyone of you, all I can say is, that the job I am working on, will be done to the best of my ability, up to code, & pipes square, &/or plumb, & on time, because I care. Also I aint leaving the job I'm currently working on, for an emergency, cuz I don't do emergencies. I stay there, & get the job done, or to the next phase, no matter what.

I went to chiropractor last night, got a job from a customer there cuz the secretary told the person, how I was a good honest plumber. I did a job this morning, & when I left, a motorist was flagging me down, on the same side street, they got a whole house remodel going on, & need a plumber. I stopped & gave them a bid. About 4 days work. Went to a birthday party this afternoon, & a guy there needs work done at a factory he owns. This stuff happens to me almost everyday. I aint bragging, cuz I don't want the flippin work. I tell them how much & how long before I can start, & whatever happens from there, is anyones bet. If they can't wait for me, I'm honest up front, don't string anyone along, or make promises I can't keep. When I say I will be there on such & such day, I'm there. That's my only sales tactic.

So thats why I don't want a salesman, & why I also look the other way at alot of issues I see, cuz I simply don't want, & can't handle anymore work.


----------



## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Epox said:


> I don't want to be late for supper tonight. It's 11 AM and I have 3 wtr htrs yet to do, and I have yet another hour before I'm complete on the tasks I was called out to do. I'm gonna pretend I didn't see that gas flex passing through the furnace cabinet next to me as I repair this wtr htr.
> This customer is griping about how expensive the task I'm performing is so I darn well gonna keep my mouth shut that the rusted tub drain and overflow trim could be replaced easily. Hope this is more what you're looking for Richard.


 
Exactly what I am ins earch of and Old schools answer.These are the things that can help me prepare for the future.Thanks


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> Is that right Dunbar



Yes.


Do either of you have a company website in regards to plumbing. This is a rhetorical question of course.


----------



## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> View attachment 15228
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
You may want to put that boat in the water.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Richard Hilliard said:


> You may want to put that boat in the water.


 
Do I need to post your websites for you... or do I need to build a video to get my point across tonight and remove all doubt.


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Don The Plumber said:


> Old school, you nailed it.
> 
> I am a 1 man show, and I simply can barely handle all the work I have now, so every day I hope & pray my phone don't ring. (NO JOKE).
> 
> ...


I agree with you...

If is fine to be a one man shop......

But there is a day when either the job will be to larger or physically challenging that you are going to need help....

And then there is another day coming....
the day you are no longer capable to physically do it anymore...... even though you know how your body just will not let you...

These days are coming closer everyday.....

These are some of the biggest reason to have employees......

The up side is you will have more free time and will not be worn out if you run with more than just yourself.


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Going out on a limb here...

I believe my esteemed colleague Mr. Hilliard is wanting to hear from the Plumbers that are offended at the idea of being a sales person and think it has no place in the routine of a skilled tradesman. Especially those in the service side of the trade.

There are a lot of Plumbing Professionals out there with incredible technical skills that misunderstand the very real need for sales skills in our trade. Hopefully if you are in that group you will at least send a PM to Richard so you can learn about the benefits to you and your customer of professional and ethical salesmanship.

He's not "selling" you anything but common sense.


----------



## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> I agree with you...
> 
> If is fine to be a one man shop......
> 
> ...




If this were true I would do it. I have the funds, I don't have the patience anymore. And to be perfectly honest, I don't seem to have luck with employees. Probably my personality, but I don't have the stomach anymore either to take on all the added stress, for nonchalant employees, who will walk out on you, for the littlest thing. 

My body is wearing out now. I already turn away larger jobs.

Sorry I'm getting off topic RH. Maybe we could start a thread on 1 man shows, pro & con?:boat:


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

I don't like people. I just want to fix their problem and get the hell out of there.

I really don't care about them, their dumb dog, or their rugrats. And I sure don't want them prying information out of me.

Honestly, I am lazy. I still make my pay and i'm not abusing my body for anyone.

I don't like my job, it's what I do to feed my family.

If I could sell, I wouldn't be a plumber.

I don't like rejection. Getting a 'no' ruins my day. I'd rather play it safe and have a good day.

I would sell, but how you can you sell to someone who should be spending the money on more important things?

What if the customer gets buyers remorse and calls the shop to complain?

Selling is just plain wrong. The customer called to have their problem fixed, not to listen to a sales pitch.

I hate selling.


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> Selling is just plain wrong. The customer called to have their problem fixed, not to listen to a sales pitch....


That's a biggy. :yes:


----------



## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> I don't like people. I just want to fix their problem and get the hell out of there.
> 
> I really don't care about them, their dumb dog, or their rugrats. And I sure don't want them prying information out of me.
> 
> ...


 
I would say Richard should hire you in a heart beat:laughing:.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Myself I like to go by the old saying...

"A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush..."

At a customers home doing a job I'm looking for additional work that I can do then, and work that they will need done in the future...

I'd like to do every job that they will pay me for that day, and hopefully have a good chance lined up on future work before I'm even interested in the next customer....

Windshield time doesn't make me money it is an expense...

That next customer isn't sold until I get there and have given a proposal which is accepted... They are just a bird in the bush...

I'll get to them when I'm done with the one in the hand...


----------



## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Don The Plumber said:


> Old school, you nailed it.
> 
> I am a 1 man show, and I simply can barely handle all the work I have now, so every day I hope & pray my phone don't ring. (NO JOKE).
> 
> ...



I can relate to you on this one. I have recently gotten rid on all my help, it's definitely fewer headaches. I would like to have multiple employees at some point but I just don't want the worry right now.


----------



## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Do I need to post your websites for you... or do I need to build a video to get my point across tonight and remove all doubt.


 
Speak in plain English and communicate what you are suggesting so everybody has an idea.


----------



## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Myself I like to go by the old saying...
> 
> "A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush..."
> 
> ...


As a business owner and son of a business owner I highlighted in red what I felt was total genius along with the attitude and work ethic every business owner hopes to achieve from an employee.


----------



## High-plumbing (Jan 8, 2012)

I did have one experience at a shop that me feel that way. We would get some guys that would b.s. Their way in. Since they had no skills they would over sell jobs, tie up techs that knew what they were doing, and just eat up all the calls. If there was a problem they would blame it on the techs that helped. Instead of doing any work they would just tack on extra hours to the big jobs that they sold. If you are going to sell it then do the work. Created a lot of resentment. Hope this helps


----------

