# Good study on PEX vs Copper



## Will

http://www.toolbase.org/pdf/fieldevaluations/brighton_plumbingreporttask1.pdf


It's a long read, but worth it. It's from a few year back.


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## plbgbiz

Good find Will. :thumbsup:


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## Will

I knew that pex would save on labor, but I never thought a manabloc system would improve hot water delivery. I've done probably 50-75 houses with Vanguard Manabloc and I always thought that the hot water delivery would be worst. One thing this study did go into is hot water delivery once the a fixture gets hot water. On a copper system once a lav in the a bathroom gets hot, the shower in the same bathroom is hot too. Not so with a Manabloic system. You have to bring hot water to each fixture one at a time.


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## user2090

Nice, really appreciate the information. I was just telling a potential customer about the difference between pex and copper.


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## Master Mark

*life span of pex*

I could not read through all that but I did see where
they finally came to the conclusion that 
the labor savings is the great advantage to the pex.. 


for someone else who does a great number of track homes ,
I guess it would pay for a few of their employees salary for the 
week if they do lots of homes.

.
some of the pex work in the pictures looked pretty sloppy 
to me compared to the copper....but who cares..:laughing::laughing:...
.
I did not see anyting about the quality of the workmanship,
or the average life span of the product...because they still
dont have a clue or know how long its gonna last...:laughing:

I myself would prefer the *wirsbo pex* over the manifold maniblock systems....

labor and time savings is the only real advantage to the stuff...
and I guess you could put any moron on the end of a 
crimper tool to run and string the stuff through the rafters....

the copper pipe would take a higher paid fellow to make it look good..
and if I had to choose between the two homes to live in,
I would prefer the copper


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## Bill

I dont care what any article says, I still believe in copper and CI

Long Live The *ART* Of Plumbing!


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## RealLivePlumber

See page 6, and Appendix III.

A 3 to 4 man crew worked on the pex, and a 2 man crew worked on the copper. 

WHERE IS THE LABOR SAVINGS!!!!!!?

The study is flawed, period.

What a monstrous waste of time, energy, and paper, by some schmo study guy.


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## Will

RealLivePlumber said:


> See page 6, and Appendix III.
> 
> A 3 to 4 man crew worked on the pex, and a 2 man crew worked on the copper.
> 
> WHERE IS THE LABOR SAVINGS!!!!!!?
> 
> The study is flawed, period.
> 
> What a monstrous waste of time, energy, and paper, by some schmo study guy.


I read that too. Sounds like there where 4 guys installing pex, and 3 at most sweating copper. Also the meterials seem low to me. A manabloc alone cost 100-130 bucks.


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## Will

Mark,

I'm all for copper, but I'm not turning a blind eye to the future. I personally don't like any crimp pex (vanguard, zurn, duropex, etc). I install only Uponor (wirsbo). I only crimp on repairs if I don't have any other opinion. (You can't expand b or c pex). 

I'm doing a re-pipe now on a house with well water that has had 3 slab leaks and one pin hole leak above slab on 1/2 copper to washer box. The house was built in the mid 80's. How do you explain that? In some situations pex is the BETTER opinion.


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## Plumbus

A house with a pumped and insulated recirc system would eliminate the wait (and water waste) for hot water. Many houses place the water heater in the garage and the bathrooms by the bedrooms at the other end of the house, requiring long purge times and making them perfect candidates for a recirc system. In such a case, how would you put a recirc system on pex?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

As long as your company is around for the 15-25 year range when we all know what this product does in longevity standards. No one knows, no lab tests can accelerate time.


The pdf I knew would lean pro PEX before I even opened it, so that was a given.


I like how some are sleeving this piping underground, which is going to be a channel to pull new lines if needed. 

Every now and then I ask my customers (and remember that I'm in a heavily dominant copper area) that, "If I used plastic water lines in your home, knowing you have all copper, would you be offended?" 

and they all come back as to "why" I'd want to change what's been working for so long.


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## plbgbiz

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> ...I like how some are sleeving this piping underground, which is going to be a channel to pull new lines if needed....


A lot of folks with slab leaks on the All Holy copper product wish theirs was sleeved. Pex has earned its place so far. But as usual, some plumbers will do with it what they shouldn't and then other plumbers will use that as the excuse to can it all together. When Gramps passed, he thought the jury should still be out on copper and PVC. After all, if it is lighter, faster, easier, and less expensive then it MUST be bad for plumbers.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

plbgbiz said:


> A lot of folks with slab leaks on the All Holy copper product wish theirs was sleeved. Pex has earned its place so far. But as usual, some plumbers will do with it what they shouldn't and then other plumbers will use that as the excuse to can it all together. When Gramps passed, he thought the jury should still be out on copper and PVC. After all, if it is lighter, faster, easier, and less expensive then it MUST be bad for plumbers.


 
And aggressive PH from the soil, the lime exposure from poured concrete excuses jackleg workmanship from licensed plumbers? Remember that copper normally fails to conditions not presented by the product itself... that's why thousands have tried to sue and never won. Plastic piping on the other hand, 

money has been handed out, hand over fist. 

You do understand that Cincinnati Ohio has skyscrapers full of copper, stretching 80 years old without issues...

You can't run PEX in large scale commercial designs; thermal expansion rates (growth) prohibits, along with a slew of fire hazard compromises with floor terminations.

I'm repeating myself for 10,000th time on the internet. :laughing:


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## Will

Dunbar, 

What would you say is destroying the copper piping at the house i'm re-piping? He had a slab leak 1st 3 years ago on the cold line (1\2 k) under slab feeding the ice maker box. Then he had another leak 3 weeks ago on the feed to the washer box, also the cold side. Now he has a leak on the hot side feed a lavatory. The house was built in the mid eighties. I'm putting in Uponor cause something is eating the copper up. I guess it's high pH levels?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Will said:


> Dunbar,
> 
> What would you say is destroying the copper piping at the house i'm re-piping? He had a slab leak 1st 3 years ago on the cold line (1\2 k) under slab feeding the ice maker box. Then he had another leak 3 weeks ago on the feed to the washer box, also the cold side. Now he has a leak on the hot side feed a lavatory. The house was built in the mid eighties. I'm putting in Uponor cause something is eating the copper up. I guess it's high pH levels?


 



Have the copper tested (sample 4 pieces) and they'll tell you what is causing it. 

If you want, steer clear of the copper institute to get your unbiased results.


If I was to guess (not knowing your location)


excessive high or low ph levels in the water treatment process, or something underlying relating to electrical in the home. 


In my area, they are adding an additive that they know will affect copper in the long term, but it's because they are trying to reverse 40 years of buildup (stalactyte sp? formations) inside the 40+ year old ductile steel water mains. 

They are buying time with an indirect result, which will be pipe failures for the end users.


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## plbgbiz

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> ...Remember that copper normally fails to conditions not presented by the product itself...
> Cincinnati Ohio has skyscrapers full of copper, stretching 80 years old without issues...
> You can't run PEX in large scale commercial designs...


Mr. D...

I never said it was copper's own fault that there are failures but the fact remains that in certain circumstances it does fail. And in those circumstances it does it with astonishing regularity and predictability. There are areas where due to soil and water conditions, copper is at best a 6 month crappy product. When that happens, even CPVC is a far superior alternative.

Just because the Ingalls building has been around since before toilets were in closets, doesn't mean Pex doesn't have its place.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

plbgbiz said:


> Mr. D...
> 
> I never said it was copper's own fault that there are failures but the fact remains that in certain circumstances it does fail. And in those circumstances it does it with astonishing regularity and predictability. There are areas where due to soil and water conditions, copper is at best a 6 month crappy product. When that happens, even CPVC is a far superior alternative.
> 
> Just because the Ingalls building has been around since before toilets were in closets, doesn't mean Pex doesn't have its place.


 

In Idaho, I used to battle with a female plumber on plbg.com 8.5 years ago that copper was the superior product, everywhere. 


I was wrong. Dead wrong, especially in Idaho. It was either galvanized water services or plastic, no inbetween. 


If your area is prone to these conditions, this turns into the HUGE problem I'll mention:


Why did your plumbing division in your state allow a product that has these known conditions, knowing the short term life it has created for the product? 

Replacing a trap due to failure over time is expected, a whole repipe shouldn't be a normal thing in 10-15-25 years if the product is reliable.

Galvanized piping <<< There are still to this day, active water systems with this piping stretching 50-75 years, and yes it clogs up, but when it freezes it doesn't burst. It stays till it thaws.

We can rag galvanized piping for all it's worth, but that was damn good product for how many years it has existed, and STILL providing potable water to millions of homes. 


But, it takes skill to run galvanized piping, just like copper. 



I do a considerable amount of CPVC pinhole leaks in plumbing these days... all I can blame on that is the water quality. But what do you expect when dealing with such inexpensive products.


Pex does have its place; the trailing pictures of all the plumbers using it now, proves it. All I'm saying is I've been around to see numerous plastic piping systems failing, all around me. 


I don't give the 4th in line any special privilege, just because it hasn't failed yet. 


Toss the (It's been used overseas for years) mentality that you can compare our water systems to that of non-chlorinated systems in other countries.

We've got dirty water... that's the half of it.


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## SewerRatz

I been in 50+ year old homes that have galvanized pipes and still has full water pressure through out the home. My question to those that claim copper fails quickly in their area. What did you use before Pex and CPVC?


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## plbgbiz

SewerRatz said:


> I been in 50+ year old homes that have galvanized pipes and still has full water pressure through out the home. My question to those that claim copper fails quickly in their area. What did you use before Pex and CPVC?


The area I was speaking of is near Piedmont, Oklahoma. Some really high end homes went up their in the '80's. 6 months later the pinholes started. There were zero exceptions and not one house over a year old had any original copper left in it. What would they have done before plastic? Who knows. Maybe galvanized steel. Most were repiped with CPVC.


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## Epox

Copper in housing here ( Roswell, NM) sucks to be totally honest. Our water laughs at copper and brass. It will find the impurities. Most of the 70's homes piped in copper have been repiped if not repaired over and over again. Truthfully though I owned a house built in early 60's and the copper piping was perfect buttttttt it was military grade, big difference. I use wirsbo with polymer (we call it plastic) crimp fittings. Wirsbo fittings are hard to compete with. Always looking for a better option though.


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## Will

The house I am talking about is in Piedmont too John. Did they ever figure out what was eating the pipes up?


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## SewerRatz

mpsllc said:


> Copper in housing here ( Roswell, NM) sucks to be totally honest. Our water laughs at copper and brass. It will find the impurities. Most of the 70's homes piped in copper have been repiped if not repaired over and over again. Truthfully though I owned a house built in early 60's and the copper piping was perfect buttttttt it was military grade, big difference. I use wirsbo with polymer (we call it plastic) crimp fittings. Wirsbo fittings are hard to compete with. Always looking for a better option though.


What is military grade copper? When I was in the Army, the copper we used was the same stuff the other local plumbers used, Type L. Nothing special there. One thing I did notice is more and more of our pipe, be it copper, cast iron and galvanized is coming from China that the suppliers are selling to us. I bet if we made sure to buy made in the USA piping we would not be having the issues many are seeing now.


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## Master Mark

*we have sleeved it all*



plbgbiz said:


> A lot of folks with slab leaks on the All Holy copper product wish theirs was sleeved. Pex has earned its place so far. But as usual, some plumbers will do with it what they shouldn't and then other plumbers will use that as the excuse to can it all together. When Gramps passed, he thought the jury should still be out on copper and PVC. After all, if it is lighter, faster, easier, and less expensive then it MUST be bad for plumbers.


we did a lot of slab homes back in the early 80s...all in copper
.
while others were doing the poly thing in the slabs at that time without
 even any aramflex on the lines.... most of that went bad in a few
 short years and people were held liable for that fiasco......

we used armaflex on both the hot and cold copper lines for the *complete runs....*
*.*it probably cost me a meal at some nice restraunt for every house I plumbed,
 but I have never had one complaint, and have never ever gone back on any of them....,


we recently did a slab commercial job and we used wirsbo pex on that 
.... and yes we sleeved the complete system
underground just cause I dont trust aquapex or any of it under the concrete...... 



for a little bit more you can go first class and sleep better.:laughing:


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## Will

Can't argue with you on that Ratz. Did some sewer work on a 1927 year old home a few weeks ago. When I cut the cast iron it was in pristine condition. I mean it looked like it would have in 1927, no joke. I doubt the cast iron being produced now is the same quality.


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## plbgbiz

Will,
Quality of the piping materials could be part of the issue. As far as the Piedmont houses go, I believe it was something to do with the soil. After you've been here for a while you'll see it regularly in Tuttle, Quail Creek East of the lake, and North East of Edmond.

Other than soil and water conditions, it is usually install related. Grounding the electrical system to the plumbing is a major cause. And then there's dents or kinks in soft copper, not sleeving through the slab, and running too shallow in the slab. Of course there are all kinds of install issues to be had with other pipes as well. Plumbers seem to find ways to screw up the easiest of installs. :yes:


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## Epox

SewerRatz said:


> What is military grade copper? When I was in the Army, the copper we used was the same stuff the other local plumbers used, Type L. Nothing special there. One thing I did notice is more and more of our pipe, be it copper, cast iron and galvanized is coming from China that the suppliers are selling to us. I bet if we made sure to buy made in the USA piping we would not be having the issues many are seeing now.


To be honest I don't know what military copper is, I do know it has a specific mixture of elements that is better than the copper piping us plumbers are used to dealing with and you would easily agree if you have seen what I have seen. I started plumbing plumbing in 76 and a lot of those house have seen horrors of plumbing issues in the piping it self,, the houses I mentioned plumbed in the 60's in military housing ( military funded) are without blemish, go figure?


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## TallCoolOne

I wouldn't put PEX in my house, and I don't install it. I see issues with it in the future.

100% copper for me..


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## Epox

TallCoolOne said:


> I wouldn't put PEX in my house, and I don't install it. I see issues with it in the future.
> 
> 100% copper for me..


What issues do see?
I don't use the pex brass fittings except for fip's and sweat adpt's, we use the polymer. As far as I have seen the piping is very good but I do prefer wirsbo.


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## Associated Plum

Will said:


> but I'm not turning a blind eye to the future. .


 
Remember Orangeburg was the future also and how can we forget about Polybutelyne.


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## Will

Associated Plum said:


> Remember Orangeburg was the future also and how can we forget about Polybutelyne.


Orangeburg was crap. There's no way you can compare pex to tared toilet paper rolls.


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## Associated Plum

Will said:


> Orangeburg was crap. There's no way you can compare pex to tared toilet paper rolls.


I never compared it to Pex, but you are the one that mentioned the future and at that time it was the future replacement to cast iron

What are your thoughts on Polybutylene?


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## frugalrooter

i tend to agree with the old school of thought, seems a bit like snake oil. nothing personal towards anyone but it just seems like a lazy mans pipe


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## Protech

I can repipe the average 2 bathroom house in 24 man hours in pex and a homeowner will need no patch work done. there is not a single person here the can do that with copper pipe done properly.

You also have to factor in water quality. some areas have water incompatible with copper and will add significant cost by way of water treatment equipment. it's that equipment is not maintained or breaks down the copper system will be destroyed. in this case the choice becomes clear, pex.

sent from my droid x


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## Protech

Associated Plum said:


> Remember Orangeburg was the future also and how can we forget about Polybutelyne.


I really don't have a problem with polybutylene itself. There are many working polybutylene systems that utilize brass fittings and copper crimp rings like today's pex systems and have had no problems whatsoever. 

your argument is a bit like saying " suv's our junk because the firestone tires cause them to roll over". I will agree that the first polybutylene systems were engineered to be cheap garbage, the material itself was good though and is still used in many countries with great success even to this day.


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## plbgbiz

Master Mark said:


> ...we did a lot of slab homes back in the early 80s...all in copper...but I have never had one complaint, and have never ever gone back on any of them....


I'm sure you haven't and from your posts I am sure the quality of the work was top notch. On the homes over 10 years old that we see slab leaks on here, the home owner seldom if ever knows who the plumber was that did the job. Heck, most of them don't even remember who the builder was. So for the houses we look at, the original plumber doesn't have any call backs either.

That may not be the case where you are.


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## Associated Plum

Protech said:


> I really don't have a problem with polybutylene itself. There are many working polybutylene systems that utilize brass fittings and copper crimp rings like today's pex systems and have had no problems whatsoever.
> 
> your argument is a bit like saying " suv's our junk because the firestone tires cause them to roll over". I will agree that the first polybutylene systems were engineered to be cheap garbage, the material itself was good though and is still used in many countries with great success even to this day.


 
I agree with you on Poly, but we were sold on the idea that this was going to replace copper and make our lives easier. 

The celcon fittings were approved and because of that IMO was the reasons for the lawsuits, . 

My point is that no one knows for sure what the future holds.

I guess we are used to having excellant water quality in Little Rock that copper is my perferred choice.


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## Will

Associated Plum said:


> I never compared it to Pex, but you are the one that mentioned the future and at that time it was the future replacement to cast iron
> 
> What are your thoughts on Polybutylene?


Fair enough, I wasn't busting your balls. My under standing of PB is that is was the fittings that were the problem. And high levels of chlorine in the water attacking the PB and causing it to split. The pex systems that mimic PB like Vanguard I rarely use. I know alot of people use the crimp system with high success, but I don't like it. I just think the Uponor is of higher quality so that is the pex I install. 

Wasn't Orangeburg from the late 1800's?


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## plbgbiz

Will said:


> ...Wasn't Orangeburg from the late 1800's?


The technology was from way before that. Bitumenized Fiber Pipe (Orangeburge) is made waterproof by pressing layers of pulp with bitumen. Some translations of biblical historical speak of bitumen used to waterproof the ark and buildings.

Orangeburg is actually a brand name which originated with the name of the town where it was made in New York. It was also used for electrical conduit.

I wish the fellow that invented it was still around so I could by him a box of donuts. :yes:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

frugalrooter said:


> i tend to agree with the old school of thought, seems a bit like snake oil. nothing personal towards anyone but it just seems like a *lazy mans pipe*


 

LMFAO!!! 


This was awesome. 


"Heeey, you runnin' some of that lazy mans pipe!" 



Oh DAMN, that's gonna be a great thread title, going to be awesome blowout, everyone pissed off at everybody kinda thread. Schweeet.:thumbsup:


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## bartnc37

Its not lazy mans pipe it's greedy man's pipe. The #1 sales pitch for pex, cpvc, any of it is that the work can be done by cheaper, lower skilled guys as opposed to experienced higher paid guys and done faster plus the material is by in large less expensive than copper. 
Plumbers may say its for chemical resistance, fewer concealed joints, or resistance to freezing etc. When it comes down to it, with very few exceptions, the bottom line is that pex and cpvc put more $ in the bank at the end of the day, and in this business like any other, the name of the game is $$$$$


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## Epox

I don't view Pex or Wirsbo as lazy mans material, though it is inherently simpler and cheaper no doubt. I remember in the 70's piping houses in copper and getting to repipe some of them after a few years later because the copper we were getting at the supply houses was crap. In some of the 70's neighborhoods here many houses have been repiped years ago. Only way I would do a house in copper here is to be by request only and the warranty would extend bout as far as I can spit.


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## 6th Density

Great thread topic. So many variables and we are the ones (for the most part) stuck with the liability.Here's my little experience input.

Copper- I was brought into the game with my old boss swearing by copper sweat. Yet I've been on a repipe with him in LYNN HAVEN, FL where tap water is the king of pure chemical crap. We had to call a leak detection service to get a close location of the under slab leak. They were about on par. Anyways, we had to bust the slab open. Point being is, the house was less than 30 years old. My boss told them that the smartest thing to do was sell the house. Just a matter of time before another underground leak appeared. 30 year old copper is fairly young in terms of the proven life span of copper.

Poly B - Personally never installed the stuff (new construction)

- Had to service an underground water service before because of a 15 year old faulty fitting. 

- Had to service a building in-wall leak. The PB pipe was cracked at a place where the plumbing installer tried to bend the pipe through a top plate penetration (wood studs) rather than using a fitting. The resulting stress caused a crack in the pipe. Don't know the existing age of pipe but am guessing at least 15 years. The pipe can obviously get brittle with time.

Poly E Xed - Every house I've installed it in (with my old boss), we didn't care about making it look amazingly neat/straight/plumb. It, like the PB, needs room to expand/contract. 

- The new company I work for is a sucker for the pex manifold system. These blocks seem to have problems. The shut off valve stems leak. They look like cheap plastic ball valves. Maybe my comp is only buying the cheap maniblocks but if not, I would make sure I'd put a drain pan under it before I install it in my house. To top that all off, my comps goal is to try and use the least amount of fittings possible (in-wall). Doesn't that give room for stress cracks like the PB?

Just my Humble 6 Years of experience!:whistling2:


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## Tommy plumber

plbgbiz said:


> The technology was from way before that. Bitumenized Fiber Pipe (Orangeburge) is made waterproof by pressing layers of pulp with bitumen. Some translations of biblical historical speak of bitumen used to waterproof the ark and buildings.
> 
> Orangeburg is actually a brand name which originated with the name of the town where it was made in New York. It was also used for electrical conduit.
> 
> I wish the fellow that invented it was still around so I could by him a box of donuts. :yes:


I graduated from Tappan Zee high school in Orangeburg, NY. Orangeburg is about 45 minutes North of NYC up the Palisades Parkway. Hard to believe that garbage was code approved back in the day. But thank God it was...:laughing:


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## Protech

I used the zurn quickport valves and used solid brass manifolds on the few maniblock systems I've done. The first one I did was a vanguard plastic manifold and while it hasn't given me any problem yet, plastic valves/fittings keep me up at night.



6th Density said:


> Great thread topic. So many variables and we are the ones (for the most part) stuck with the liability.Here's my little experience input.
> 
> Copper- I was brought into the game with my old boss swearing by copper sweat. Yet I've been on a repipe with him in LYNN HAVEN, FL where tap water is the king of pure chemical crap. We had to call a leak detection service to get a close location of the under slab leak. They were about on par. Anyways, we had to bust the slab open. Point being is, the house was less than 30 years old. My boss told them that the smartest thing to do was sell the house. Just a matter of time before another underground leak appeared. 30 year old copper is fairly young in terms of the proven life span of copper.
> 
> Poly B - Personally never installed the stuff (new construction)
> 
> - Had to service an underground water service before because of a 15 year old faulty fitting.
> 
> - Had to service a building in-wall leak. The PB pipe was cracked at a place where the plumbing installer tried to bend the pipe through a top plate penetration (wood studs) rather than using a fitting. The resulting stress caused a crack in the pipe. Don't know the existing age of pipe but am guessing at least 15 years. The pipe can obviously get brittle with time.
> 
> Poly E Xed - Every house I've installed it in (with my old boss), we didn't care about making it look amazingly neat/straight/plumb. It, like the PB, needs room to expand/contract.
> 
> - The new company I work for is a sucker for the pex manifold system. These blocks seem to have problems. The shut off valve stems leak. They look like cheap plastic ball valves. Maybe my comp is only buying the cheap maniblocks but if not, I would make sure I'd put a drain pan under it before I install it in my house. To top that all off, my comps goal is to try and use the least amount of fittings possible (in-wall). Doesn't that give room for stress cracks like the PB?
> 
> Just my Humble 6 Years of experience!:whistling2:


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## TopDog

A long read? That's an understatement.

btw great thread! :thumbup:


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## jim connolly

Around here, if I bid residential domestic waterline work in copper, I'd be priced out of the market. Pex is king. 
commercial/industrial however is another story. Engineers still spec type l Cu about 90% of the time.


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## Will

I've had alot of problems on Vanguards manibloc system with the compression connections on the manibloc. The nuts would unscrew them selves, sometimes over a year after the install. I think they have fixed that problem though. I haven't done a manibloc system in over a year. I found that if you drill your hole your holes alittle higher than the monibloc that the system works alot better and is easier to hook up.


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## Plumberman911

Ground jobs I wish they were still copper. Orherwise it doesn't matter to me. What ever the customer wants to pay for.
Has anyone used and or do you like PEX-AL-PEX?


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## bcp2012

Has anyone used and or do you like PEX-AL-PEX?[/QUOTE]

I've never used it but had to do a repipe in a nursing home that was originally piped in it. Somehow water was getting in between the aluminum and the outside layer of pex and was causing bubbles in the pipe and would eventually burst. It was only on the hot pipes that it would do this. So don't have to many good things to say about it after I saw that.

Sent from my iPhone


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## Plumberman911

Dang. No that's not good. I like the idea cause it would set up like copper. But not if it floods a house


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## bcp2012

If I remember correctly the piping was 5 yrs old max when they started having problems. Manufacturer tried blaming it on the water and it was a big fight. I believe they actually gave the nursing home some $$ towards the repipe.

Sent from my iPhone


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## rjbphd

Plumberman911 said:


> Ground jobs I wish they were still copper. Orherwise it doesn't matter to me. What ever the customer wants to pay for.
> Has anyone used and or do you like PEX-AL-PEX?


 PAP thought it used for heating system only..


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## Plumberman911

rjbphd said:


> PAP thought it used for heating system only..


 2009 IPC has it listen in water distribution chart also


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## antiCon

if its not copper i only use Uponor (wirsbo) type A and run it like i would copper... no maniblock crap..


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## Will

antiCon said:


> if its not copper i only use Uponor (wirsbo) type A and run it like i would copper... no maniblock crap..


Do you loop it under slabs or are you working on basement homes? Wirsbo has major disadvantages when its looped under slab as it takes up too much stud space


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## Piper34

This "argument " will never be over in the zone .how ever I've used pex exclusively for many years on very high end residential,commercial ,heat hot water ,cold water ,recirc.lines. Never any inclination of a problem ,pressure drop or so on.
On large commercial I use copper 11/4" and above works wonderful like it always has . My contention is if it easier ,quicker possibly cheaper (pex) why use something more expensive ,harder to work with much more prone to leaks ( lets be real I've done both for along time and had very good experienced plumbers working for me there is way more problems with copper installations ) but even if we were perfect every time why would I want to give potential savings to builders, and H.O. Let's move foward technology is good. I know there are a lot of pex hacks out there but I've seen just as many or more copper hacks .I personally wouldnt do mana block system ,ore time. Labor ,material unless they want to pay extra for that but in a practical sense I run trunk hot and cold piping ,if needed and pd. for recirc. HW .Being in this competitive business is hard enough don't penalize yourself to be nostalgic . I always post this difference and always expect to be pounded but it never comes and. I'm not looking for it . I think at least in my case we don't aspire to be plumbers we end up plumbers but you can make a good living doing it HAPPY PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR TO ALL


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## moonapprentice

Worsbo home run systems....I have faith


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## phishfood

Piper34 said:


> This "argument " will never be over in the zone .how ever I've used pex exclusively for many years on very high end residential,commercial ,heat hot water ,cold water ,recirc.lines. Never any inclination of a problem ,pressure drop or so on.
> On large commercial I use copper 11/4" and above works wonderful like it always has . My contention is if it easier ,quicker possibly cheaper (pex) why use something more expensive ,harder to work with much more prone to leaks ( lets be real I've done both for along time and had very good experienced plumbers working for me there is way more problems with copper installations ) but even if we were perfect every time why would I want to give potential savings to builders, and H.O. Let's move foward technology is good. I know there are a lot of pex hacks out there but I've seen just as many or more copper hacks .I personally wouldnt do mana block system ,ore time. Labor ,material unless they want to pay extra for that but in a practical sense I run trunk hot and cold piping ,if needed and pd. for recirc. HW .Being in this competitive business is hard enough don't penalize yourself to be nostalgic . I always post this difference and always expect to be pounded but it never comes and. I'm not looking for it . I think at least in my case we don't aspire to be plumbers we end up plumbers but you can make a good living doing it HAPPY PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR TO ALL


And a most happy and prosperous New Year to you as well.

I don't ask this to be critical or anything of the sort. Curiosity.

But if PEX is good to use in 1" or below, why don't you use it on 1 1/4" and above?


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## Will

phishfood said:


> And a most happy and prosperous New Year to you as well.
> 
> I don't ask this to be critical or anything of the sort. Curiosity.
> 
> But if PEX is good to use in 1" or below, why don't you use it on 1 1/4" and above?


Have you seen what it cost to have a Wirsbo tool thsy goes over 1"? Might have something to do with it. Also manufacturers not making fittings. Think Viega only goes to 2".


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## Hans B Shaver

well water acidic well eats holes in copper pipe from the inside out. test the water. if high acidic water install acid neutralizer. but this makes the water hard, then you need a water softener.


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## Mississippiplum

Hans B Shaver said:


> . but this makes the water hard, then you need a water softener.


Not necasarily, all depends on how low the PH is, and how much calcite is put into the neutralizer.

Sent from my iPhone 10.5


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