# 2-handle faucet replacements



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Ok guys let me pick ya brains here little bit,I do a lot of 2-handle tub @ tub/shower faucet replacements and was wondering which faucet works the best for these replacements.i put a banner tub faucet on today and it will be the last banner I ever install as the way it's made if the wall is 1/2" thick the dam eschutions won't start on the theads.what faucets are better as far as having long and deep eschutions that will grab the threads of the faucet if they are barely sticking thru tub wall. Any thoughts on this??i know everybody here has replaced a tub faucet that didn't fit right


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Aren't you supposed to be switching them over to a pressure balanced valve?


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plbgbiz said:


> Aren't you supposed to be switching them over to a pressure balanced valve?[/QUOTE
> 
> Not unless it is getting inspected,on older homes you are allowed to install these type faucets


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

We got a free pass for a while, but no more. Doesn't matter if it is "old" or getting inspected. 

You put a non-pressure balanced valve in around here and somebody gets scalded, you can take you license along with all your assets and throw them in the shredder. You'd be done for good.

I am shocked any AHJ is still allowing this.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Wanna be inspector or inspector rather see those crappy die electric unions on water heater than checking for those safety shower valves .


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

SO, if there is no permit and inspection it's ok do do such an install???? Tell that to your insurance Co. When someone gets scalded. What is the max temp at a shower in your state?

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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plbgbiz said:


> We got a free pass for a while, but no more. Doesn't matter if it is "old" or getting inspected.
> 
> You put a non-pressure balanced valve in around here and somebody gets scalded, you can take you license along with all your assets and throw them in the shredder. You'd be done for good.
> 
> I am shocked any AHJ is still allowing this.


Not that way around here,only if getting inspected does it have to be pressure balance,and I can't recall in the last 40yrs anybody getting scalded from a 2-3handle faucet,guess if they are dumb enough to lay there in scalding hot water then they ain't smart enough to operate a single handle faucet..


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plumbdrum said:


> SO, if there is no permit and inspection it's ok do do such an install???? Tell that to your insurance Co. When someone gets scalded. What is the max temp at a shower in your state?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Yes,that is correct,why do supply houses and hd and lowes still sell them if they are so dangerous????some old houses this is all you can do


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

sparky said:


> Yes,that is correct,why do supply houses and hd and lowes still sell them if they are so dangerous????some old houses this is all you can do


Ummm.... Can you explain how it's ALL you can do? They make repair plates, and I've never seen one that I couldn't make that work. 

Sounds almost like saying that its only illegal if you get caught. Inspections should have no bearing on the work you do IMO.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

sparky said:


> Not that way around here,only if getting inspected does it have to be pressure balance,and I can't recall in the last 40yrs anybody getting scalded from a 2-3handle faucet,guess if they are dumb enough to lay there in scalding hot water then they ain't smart enough to operate a single handle faucet..


I have.... which is why I've been pushing it even before I got my plumbing license, way before they made it 'kids safe' codes and way before they made it code for all tub\shower....


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

sparky said:


> Not that way around here,only if getting inspected does it have to be pressure balance,and I can't recall in the last 40yrs anybody getting scalded from a 2-3handle faucet,guess if they are dumb enough to lay there in scalding hot water then they ain't smart enough to operate a single handle faucet..


Are you willing to bet they are too dumb to call a lawyer?


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Letterrip said:


> Ummm.... Can you explain how it's ALL you can do? They make repair plates, and I've never seen one that I couldn't make that work.
> 
> Sounds almost like saying that its only illegal if you get caught. Inspections should have no bearing on the work you do IMO.


If it's an old house that had plumbing it before the state adopted the plumbing code then you do not have to get an inspection to replace a tub faucet,or if house was plumbed under code but before the pressure balance law was in effect then a lot of houses have these 2-3 handle faucets and they can be replaced without an inspection.what part of this is so hard to understand???


And what I mean by that is all you can do in some houses means that a lot of people will not pay for a major demo and repair to put in a different faucet.if I can remove a 2-handle faucet and install a new one in 2 hrs vs. 5-6hrs or more on cuttin out tile or whatever and havin one hell of a mess then that is what I'm gonna do


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

rjbphd said:


> I have.... which is why I've been pushing it even before I got my plumbing license, way before they made it 'kids safe' codes and way before they made it code for all tub\shower....




Their water heater must have been turned up to high or it was overheating to scald a person to death


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plbgbiz said:


> Are you willing to bet they are too dumb to call a lawyer?


Naw,don't have to worry bout it cause they are not illegal to install,they are getting fazed out little by little but it's NOT illegal to put this faucet on!!!!!!


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

sparky said:


> Naw,don't have to worry bout it cause they are not illegal to install,they are getting fazed out little by little but it's NOT illegal to put this faucet on!!!!!!


Ur right, not illegal to install on TUB use only, without showering attachment..


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I cannot even fathom why someone would want the liability of a 3 handle set up for a replacement. Just because Home Depot or Lowes Sell's it does not make ok to install it. I asked before what was the LEGAL temp out of the shower? How would you limit that temp with a 3 handle valve? Please enlighten me.

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## hawkeye77 (Feb 20, 2009)

http://www.watts.com/prod_images/hi-res/MMV_M1.jpg 
If you have to have three handle this is how you set the temp this is what we are required in a roman tub style faucet


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

hawkeye77 said:


> http://www.watts.com/prod_images/hi-res/MMV_M1.jpg
> If you have to have three handle this is how you set the temp this is what we are required in a roman tub style faucet


Hard to se or say.. not showing assme nbr..


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

sparky said:


> If it's an old house that had plumbing it before the state adopted the plumbing code then you do not have to get an inspection to replace a tub faucet,or if house was plumbed under code but before the pressure balance law was in effect then a lot of houses have these 2-3 handle faucets and they can be replaced without an inspection.what part of this is so hard to understand???
> 
> And what I mean by that is all you can do in some houses means that a lot of people will not pay for a major demo and repair to put in a different faucet.if I can remove a 2-handle faucet and install a new one in 2 hrs vs. 5-6hrs or more on cuttin out tile or whatever and havin one hell of a mess then that is what I'm gonna do


Thanks for the clarification. I'm just dumbfounded that its legal.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Letterrip said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I'm just dumbfounded that its legal.


NOT LEGAL, save yourself a lawsuit, install proper valve with a remodel plate. Thermostatic, pressure balanced , with a limit stop to set the shower to 112 F.

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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Scalding is a real threat, especially to the very young and the very old. Even if the customer is young, strong and virile and can jump out of a tub, they may have guests that can't. Or the customers may start a family and have small children {my 2 year old daughter while in the roman tub for her bath can manipulate the hot and cold knobs to turn the water on}. Or the customers sell the house and people move in with children or elderly people who can be severly scalded.

The plumbers in this thread {including myself} are not on our high horse taking the high road just to pick an argument. Scalding is real and does happen more than one would think.



Check this: http://www.watts.com/pages/learnAbout/scaldingLurks.asp?catId=1159


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I'm not trying to beat you up on this Sparky, but you really need to consider the dangers of excessively hot water.

Each year, approximately 3,800 injuries and 34 deaths occur in the home due to scalding from excessively hot tap water.

http://www.accuratebuilding.com/services/legal/charts/hot_water_burn_scalding_graph.html


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

We cut the tile and install renovation escutcheons routinely. I don't think we have ever had a valve replacement take five hours.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

rjbphd said:


> Ur right, not illegal to install on TUB use only, without showering attachment..


Not illegal on either one around here as long as it meets the requirements I posted above


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plumbdrum said:


> I cannot even fathom why someone would want the liability of a 3 handle set up for a replacement. Just because Home Depot or Lowes Sell's it does not make ok to install it. I asked before what was the LEGAL temp out of the shower? How would you limit that temp with a 3 handle valve? Please enlighten me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


It don't matter if it's 200 degrees,as long as you are smart enough to mix it with the cold when filling tub or takin shower


105 is legal temp can be controlled at the water heater if a oh is worried bout getting scalded


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plumbdrum said:


> NOT LEGAL, save yourself a lawsuit, install proper valve with a remodel plate. Thermostatic, pressure balanced , with a limit stop to set the shower to 112 F.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Yes,is legal under described conditions I posted above


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## Plumber Mark (Mar 14, 2014)

In Minnesota it would be illegal to put in a two handle shower valve. Even if we don't have a shower we must put in a thermostatic mixing valve to protect against scalding. We must do this on our roman tub fillers!


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Plumber Mark said:


> In Minnesota it would be illegal to put in a two handle shower valve. Even if we don't have a shower we must put in a thermostatic mixing valve to protect against scalding. We must do this on our roman tub fillers!


At the cabin in Isabella, shower with no valve, whatever you pour in the 5 gals bucket above, that's ur temps...


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

sparky said:


> It don't matter if it's 200 degrees,as long as you are smart enough to mix it with the cold when filling tub or takin shower 105 is legal temp can be controlled at the water heater if a oh is worried bout getting scalded


Hot water defined in my code is 120 F, for residential no more than 130F out of a faucet. 112F for a shower, 110F for a public bathroom faucet. Cannot use a HWH for a mixing valve, you have to create hot water (120F) then you can set your other temps.

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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

2007 Kentucky State Plumbing Law, Regulations and Code

815 KAR 20:120. Water supply and distribution. 
RELATES TO: KRS 318.010, 318.130, 318.150, 318.165, 318.200 
STATUTORY AUTHORITY: KRS 198B.040(10), 318.130 

*NECESSITY, FUNCTION, AND CONFORMITY:* The office is directed by KRS 318.130 through the State Plumbing Code Committee to adopt and put into effect a State Plumbing Code. This administrative regulation establishes the types of piping and pipe sizes for a potable water supply system and the methods to be used to protect and control the water supply system and requires the manufacturer's specification number of the material accepted in those installations to be identified and published.

*Section 11. Temperature and Pressure Control Devices for Shower Installations. *
A temperature or pressure balance device to prevent a sudden unanticipated change in water temperature *shall be installed* to serve each shower compartment and shower-bath combination.


I don't see in Kentucky's plumbing law an exception made for old houses. Just because an AHJ turns a blind eye, does not mean you are not liable.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plbgbiz said:


> 2007 Kentucky State Plumbing Law, Regulations and Code
> 
> 815 KAR 20:120. Water supply and distribution.
> RELATES TO: KRS 318.010, 318.130, 318.150, 318.165, 318.200
> ...


Doesn't say you can't do it either, I just know what inspectors have said about this and they are on board with the code as I posted it.yrs on down the road it will eventually get to where there will be nothing but single handle scald guard faucets that can be installed but until then if oh wants a 2 handle faucet I give it to them


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

sparky said:


> Doesn't say you can't do it either...


That is exactly what "Shall Be" means.

If you AHJ gives you a pass, so be it. Just saying that you probably still are carrying some liability on the issue as well.

Just offering another viewpoint. Not meaning to give you grief.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> That is exactly what "Shall Be" means. If you AHJ gives you a pass, so be it. Just saying that you probably still are carrying some liability on the issue as well. Just offering another viewpoint. Not meaning to give you grief.


If the AHJ is approving this install, then the municipality he/she works could be liable if something should happen. The job of the inspector is to enforce local/ state codes, if they deviate from the code (which sometimes I will allow) that is their decision , but this is a SAFETY issue and should not be looked at with a blind eye. I don't know ANY inspector that would allow this valve with a shower set up.

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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plbgbiz said:


> That is exactly what "Shall Be" means.
> 
> If you AHJ gives you a pass, so be it. Just saying that you probably still are carrying some liability on the issue as well.
> 
> Just offering another viewpoint. Not meaning to give you grief.


nooooo,you cool biz,well I installed my first single handle delta faucet today in place where a 2-handle faucet was,and we used the remodel trim plate,and im here to tell you that was THE AGGRAVATING ***** that I have ever fooled with.had to cut out ceramic tile and the dam wall was over 2inches thick,dust and **** flying everywhere,made a hell of a mess,finally it all turned out ok,but next time you can bet you azz I will be installing a 2-handle in place of a 2-handle,might be easier on a fiberglass stall wall,but with tile and wire and grout,no more for this ole boy,i will slap a 2-handle faucet right back in there so fast it will make your head spin.dam that **** was so aggravating


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

sparky said:


> nooooo,you cool biz,well I installed my first single handle delta faucet today in place where a 2-handle faucet was,and we used the remodel trim plate,and im here to tell you that was THE AGGRAVATING ***** that I have ever fooled with.had to cut out ceramic tile and the dam wall was over 2inches thick,dust and **** flying everywhere,made a hell of a mess,finally it all turned out ok,but next time you can bet you azz I will be installing a 2-handle in place of a 2-handle,might be easier on a fiberglass stall wall,but with tile and wire and grout,no more for this ole boy,i will slap a 2-handle faucet right back in there so fast it will make your head spin.dam that **** was so aggravating


Shud install a MOENTROL and be a hero..


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

rjbphd said:


> Shud install a MOENTROL and be a hero..


problem wasn't the faucet,it was cutting out the over 2" think tile and grout wall that had the wire in it.i was covered in dust,whole room was covered with dust,after I got hole cut out for faucet,and was covered in dust,i should have cut out more for the trim plate but the dust was so bad I tried to make it work and it was one heck of a B**ch,what is it that you like about the moentrol faucet????don't recall if I have ever installed this type before,but have a lot of moens.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

sparky said:


> problem wasn't the faucet,it was cutting out the over 2" think tile and grout wall that had the wire in it.i was covered in dust,whole room was covered with dust,after I got hole cut out for faucet,and was covered in dust,i should have cut out more for the trim plate but the dust was so bad I tried to make it work and it was one heck of a B**ch,what is it that you like about the moentrol faucet????don't recall if I have ever installed this type before,but have a lot of moens.


Next time try a wet sponge at your grinder blade.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> Next time try a wet sponge at your grinder blade.


What makes you think from reading his post that there will be a next time? :laughing:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Phat Cat said:


> What makes you think from reading his post that there will be a next time? :laughing:


Because his AHJ will not ignore the issue forever. :no:


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plbgbiz said:


> Because his AHJ will not ignore the issue forever. :no:


if any inspector has ever tried to put one on and gone thru what I went thru id be willing to bet that they will overlook it everytime.i was so dang mad I was talkin to myself and cussin and aggravated I could have bit a nail into


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## wookie (Dec 16, 2008)

sparky said:


> problem wasn't the faucet,it was cutting out the over 2" think tile and grout wall that had the wire in it.i was covered in dust,whole room was covered with dust,after I got hole cut out for faucet,and was covered in dust,i should have cut out more for the trim plate but the dust was so bad I tried to make it work and it was one heck of a B**ch,what is it that you like about the moentrol faucet????don't recall if I have ever installed this type before,but have a lot of moens.


I enjoy jobs like this. A pain ... yes. But takes skill to do well. Really not bad if you have the right tools and who doesn't like to buy tools!

Not to mention good money:thumbup:

I agree go with moentrol.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

sparky said:


> if any inspector has ever tried to put one on and gone thru what I went thru id be willing to bet that they will overlook it everytime.i was so dang mad I was talkin to myself and cussin and aggravated I could have bit a nail into


Before I was a full time inspector, I was in business for 14 years, never once did I ever even come close to installing a valve like that because it was to hard. Whaaaaaa, are freakin kidding me. Put in the legal valve, I would fail ANYBODY for this type of install.

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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

sparky said:


> if any inspector has ever tried to put one on and gone thru what I went thru id be willing to bet that they will overlook it everytime.i was so dang mad I was talkin to myself and cussin and aggravated I could have bit a nail into


Yeah right. Like inspectors care if your job is hard. :laughing:

Just get the right tools and stop yer belly-achin'.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

...


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## sycamorebob (Sep 2, 2012)

Buy one of these, it has a dust collecting attachment. Its great on wood,tile and sheet-rock and almost dustless..


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## Keefer w (Jan 26, 2012)

plumbdrum said:


> If the AHJ is approving this install, then the municipality he/she works could be liable if something should happen. The job of the inspector is to enforce local/ state codes, if they deviate from the code (which sometimes I will allow) that is their decision , but this is a SAFETY issue and should not be looked at with a blind eye. I don't know ANY inspector that would allow this valve with a shower set up.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


The chief plumbing Inspector for Jefferson and Oldham county was my instructor for my license when I lived there. As well as the compliance officer. We can give them a call and ask. I still have the contact info...


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## Plumbbum0203 (Dec 14, 2011)

wookie said:


> I enjoy jobs like this. A pain ... yes. But takes skill to do well. Really not bad if you have the right tools and who doesn't like to buy tools!
> 
> Not to mention good money:thumbup:
> 
> I agree go with moentrol.


Seperates the great plumber with skill from your averege joe. I think there are repair plumbers and there are new construction plumbers that think they can do repair work. Two different animals.


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

Plumbbum0203 said:


> Seperates the great plumber with skill from your averege joe. I think there are repair plumbers and there are new construction plumbers that think they can do repair work. Two different animals.


Not really plumbing is plumbing , I work for a new construction company but we still to repairs , the only difference is repair is a little bit dirtier and you MUST have great problem solving skills


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## Plumbbum0203 (Dec 14, 2011)

Leach713 said:


> Not really plumbing is plumbing , I work for a new construction company but we still to repairs , the only difference is repair is a little bit dirtier and you MUST have great problem solving skills


"Great problem solving skills" is right.
Ive worked with new construction guys that dont know sheet but water lines and drain stacks and could not trouble shoot sheet. They would loose these shower valve jobs because the only option they gave was to tear down the wall and re plumb it. Its a different mindset to do repair work. Some have it some dont. Both sides of the trade are valueble. 

Ive schooled other plumbers on this before. I replace a old single handle valve all the time thru the five inch hole that is already cut . Two or three handle would take a remodel plate. Im not being cockyy just proud of my skills.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*commmon sense should apply here...*



sparky said:


> If it's an old house that had plumbing it before the state adopted the plumbing code then you do not have to get an inspection to replace a tub faucet,or if house was plumbed under code but before the pressure balance law was in effect then a lot of houses have these 2-3 handle faucets and they can be replaced without an inspection.what part of this is so hard to understand???
> 
> 
> And what I mean by that is all you can do in some houses means that a lot of people will not pay for a major demo and repair to put in a different faucet.if I can remove a 2-handle faucet and install a new one in 2 hrs vs. 5-6hrs or more on cuttin out tile or whatever and havin one hell of a mess then that is what I'm gonna do


 

At least in our state you can install a 2 or 3 handle tub
faucet if it is a replacement...

if you are ripping out the wall , THEN it has to be a pressure balanced valve... We have done both over the years , 

personally I think you got to be nuts to literally saw through the tile and tear out the wall with a grinder type tool like was posted earlier.... 
In a lot of cases you risking the whole tile wall falling down on you in some older dumps, just to install a pressure balanced valve...:laughing::no: 
 Now thats smart...thinking.... a swift moove...:thumbsup:

On extremely older situations, I have opted to glue up a white plastic sheet of tub surround panel over the whole wall to hold the old nasty tile in place and then install the single handle balanced valve.....
That is basiaclly a day long job...

I guess my problem with upgrading a faucet this would be the fact that at LOWES and HD, they still sell normal 2 handle faucets.... So How do you explain this to the customer that you cant just install that common faucet???? 

to follow the same logic, shouldent LOWES and HD be afaid of being sued if one of their faucets they sold scalds someone?????


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## Plumbbum0203 (Dec 14, 2011)

Master Mark said:


> At least in our state you can install a 2 or 3 handle tub
> faucet if it is a replacement...
> 
> if you are ripping out the wall , THEN it has to be a pressure balanced valve... We have done both over the years ,
> ...


Ive seen rubber maid lids caulked to the wall after a valve change. If the wall looks fragile or not the customer is made aware that im trying to save them the trouble of wall repairs. If tile comes off then we cross that bridge. As far as lowes and depot they are not made to follow codes. they also sell chainsaws which is more of a problem then shower valves i my opinion.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> ...I guess my problem with upgrading a faucet this would be the fact that at LOWES and HD, they still sell normal 2 handle faucets.... So How do you explain this to the customer that you cant just install that common faucet????...


I dunno Mark. Probably the same way you explain why as a licensed professional, you will not be installing these "NEW" anti-siphon ballcocks. I didn't get a pic, but the same home depot showed a diagram of a plumbing system on one of their DIY boards. It had sch40 PVC for the hot water. Are you going to do that as well, because it's cheaper and sold at HD?

Since when has HD code violations justified Plumbers doing it?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Keefer w said:


> The chief plumbing Inspector for Jefferson and Oldham county was my instructor for my license when I lived there. As well as the compliance officer. We can give them a call and ask. I still have the contact info...


Ask him what??

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

It's really not as big of a deal as some think it is. Why are Plumbers so willing to make the customer's problem, their problem?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

We did have a guy that did not like the Delta renovation cover. He wanted something more custom. When we returned to install the trim, this is what we found.


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

Plumbbum0203 said:


> "Great problem solving skills" is right. Ive worked with new construction guys that dont know sheet but water lines and drain stacks and could not trouble shoot sheet. They would loose these shower valve jobs because the only option they gave was to tear down the wall and re plumb it. Its a different mindset to do repair work. Some have it some dont. Both sides of the trade are valueble. Ive schooled other plumbers on this before. I replace a old single handle valve all the time thru the five inch hole that is already cut . Two or three handle would take a remodel plate. Im not being cockyy just proud of my skills.


Lol


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> It's really not as big of a deal as some think it is. Why are Plumbers so willing to make the customer's problem, their problem?


That what I would of done using a shiimity plate


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plumbdrum said:


> Before I was a full time inspector, I was in business for 14 years, never once did I ever even come close to installing a valve like that because it was to hard. Whaaaaaa, are freakin kidding me. Put in the legal valve, I would fail ANYBODY for this type of install.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


2-handle faucet is legal,it was an older house that was plumbed before the pressure balance rule was even thought off,it could have been replaced with a identical 2-handle,but howner wanted single handle.they will get 2-handle next time fo sure


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> At least in our state you can install a 2 or 3 handle tub
> faucet if it is a replacement...
> 
> if you are ripping out the wall , THEN it has to be a pressure balanced valve... We have done both over the years ,
> ...


thank you,finally someone that knows what the hell they are talkin about,it is the same way here in ky,just like you posted,i promise you that was my first and my last tile cut out job just to install a single handle faucet.NEVER HAPPEN TO THIS OLE BOY AGAIN


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plbgbiz said:


> ...


THESE LOOK LIKE CRAP,the trim plate is to close to the spout,dont look right at all,i wouldn't have it in my house,not like that


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plbgbiz said:


> It's really not as big of a deal as some think it is. Why are Plumbers so willing to make the customer's problem, their problem?


to close to the spout,doesnt look right at all,i wouldn't want that in my house


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

sparky said:


> to close to the spout,doesnt look right at all,i wouldn't want that in my house


If you lived in an area where the AHJ didn't turn a blind eye to the code you would. 

I never said they look good. Those gawd awful plates look like crap no matter who makes them, or who installs them but I do not care. Yes the spout ends up very close sometimes. It is the nature of the beast. Your excuse that the reason to avoid them because it was messy or difficult is just that, an excuse.

I did not write the code that dictates pressure balanced valves.
I was not consulted when it was adopted.
I do not have authority over the AHJ.
I will not risk my license because the client cares more for their tile than for their safety.
I will not take on financial liability because the client cannot buy a new wall.
When aesthetics and code argue, code wins.

Your AHJ allows you to install valves that are proven to increase the risk of injury. This decision is based on the age of a house. Cool for you, but don't try convince me that it is some how better for anybody.

I suppose the houses built in the 50's should not be required to make unsightly upgrades with water heaters by cutting walls and door openings to get them elevated in garage areas. Single wall vent pipe should only be upgraded to b-vent when walls or ceilings are unaffected. Otherwise, it must be left as-is or replaced with more single wall pipe. After all, safety issues are only for people that have new homes.

New item for the ICC to consider adding to the General regulations section of the IPC...All structures shall remain under the code that was the law of the land when said structure was first constructed. Code upgrades that are beyond the requirements present at the time of construction shall be deemed unnecessary and unenforceable by the AHJ. All safety risks and liabilities shall be the sole burden of the property owner.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

sparky said:


> thank you,finally someone that knows what the hell they are talkin about,it is the same way here in ky,just like you posted,i promise you that was my first and my last tile cut out job just to install a single handle faucet.NEVER HAPPEN TO THIS OLE BOY AGAIN


So now we have 2 people that don't know. If it is for TUB only with NO shower attachments your ok, other than that it is single Hanse, anti-scald, pressure balanced or thermostatic with a limit stop. Your opening yourself, the consumer and if your AHJ if he looks the other way your all going to have a REAL problem with someone getting scalded.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

sparky said:


> thank you,finally someone that knows what the hell they are talkin about,it is the same way here in ky,just like you posted,i promise you that was my first and my last tile cut out job just to install a single handle faucet.NEVER HAPPEN TO THIS OLE BOY AGAIN


If it's a tub ONLY with no shower attachment your ok. Other than that invest in the right tools and install the proper valves. Just because HD or Lowes sells it doesn't make it legal to install. HD in my area sells some crap yellow CSST that not approved for use in my state to people that aren't even certified for CSST installation or even better LICENSED. Do the right thing for your customer and install the proper valves.

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## Keefer w (Jan 26, 2012)

plumbdrum said:


> Ask him what??
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


If an inspector in the Commonwealth of KY would or should give ita thumbs up,or what their interpretation of the code is.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Keefer w said:


> If an inspector in the Commonwealth of KY would or should give ita thumbs up,or what their interpretation of the code is.


There is no interpretation, all the codes I've read between the 2 states I hold a master in say SHALL, nothing with if it's a replacement.

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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> thank you,finally someone that knows what the hell they are talkin about,it is the same way here in ky,just like you posted,i promise you that was my first and my last tile cut out job just to install a single handle faucet.NEVER HAPPEN TO THIS OLE BOY AGAIN


 
these guys really hosed you down pretty good and got you into a mess with that faucet replacement.. glad the tile never hair line cracked or fell out on you........:yes::laughing:.

I will 100% agree with you that some of those faucet 
replacements looked pretty ugly...It all looks like something I have seen in a trailer park home..... 

Once the soap and grime starts to run in between the plate and the spout that is almost touching in some of those pics, its gonna look like dog cra/...

*I am not saying that they were not done correctly up to the code of your state,* , just I dont think some of my customers would be happy with that replacement at all..:no: 

I would rather show them some pictures first then let them decide on which faucet they would prefer...and if they dont want that mess on their wall, I would have them sign off on them

I use a two handle tub and shower faucet we buy at Menards called a Tiffany....they are a identicle match to the old Delta facuets that were discontinued 10 years ago.. same exact parts.. and they work great up here in Little old Indiana.....I bet they would work well in Kentucky too


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## Plumbbum0203 (Dec 14, 2011)

Leach713 said:


> Lol


Whats funny?


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## Keefer w (Jan 26, 2012)

plumbdrum said:


> There is no interpretation, all the codes I've read between the 2 states I hold a master in say SHALL, nothing with if it's a replacement.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


I'm not understand this completely^^. Since it's a replacement, it's legal per my code. That's what you are saying in the 2nd part? And the 1st part; in KY and ma code it's OK to do?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

So this is what we're down to? Damn the code if it ain't pretty.

I hate to sound like a boy scout on this but HOLY CRAP! Has no one ever heard of professionally licensed tradesmen being sued for willfully endangering their customer? "But the customer signed a waiver after disapproving of the pictures" you say? Geez, a 1st year law student taking classes on line would chew you up and spit you to the dogs.

This next is information from more than one attorney directly to me regarding waivers in specific cases where I was called as a witness. This is not legal advice for anyone else. You should seek your own specific answers from your own attorney that is familiar with you and your circumstances. Now with the disclaimer out of the way...

Waivers are not ironclad for either side. For instance, a parent cannot legally give up the right for someone to be sued on behalf of that parents child. A parent cannot sign away the right of a child to sue for injuries. There are instances where an adult can sign away their own rights to sue and they are often enforceable. However, that enforceable agreement must be based on legal activity. For instance, a company cannot escape liability if they are breaking the law within the agreement. How might this apply to plumbing?

The easy target is water heaters. If a customer is given a choice on a water heater install. One option is to elevate it 18" in the garage and the other is to put it back like the old one. The customer doesn't want it up in the air. They want the look they had before so they sign a waiver freeing the contractor from liability in the event it blows up. The agreed upon installation is illegal and the prosecuting attorney will easily show that a licensed Plumber knew it was not only illegal, but dangerous as well.

Shower faucets. 130-140 deg water can cause severe 3rd degree burns on children in just a few short seconds. It happens and that is why the pressure balanced shower valves is in every code book in the country. Even Kentucky. A parent cannot sign away the child's right to pursue damages. And as legal guardian, the parent (even though they waived responsibility), could sue for millions on behalf of their child.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Keefer w said:


> I'm not understand this completely^^. Since it's a replacement, it's legal per my code. That's what you are saying in the 2nd part? And the 1st part; in KY and ma code it's OK to do?


 That is not legal according to your code. It is according to your AHJ's interpretation that will not hold up in court. 

-OR- 

What section of your code says it is approved to install a non-pressure balanced faucet that could be used for showering? Your test to become licensed is based on the letter of the code, not the AHJ's free pass. And the passing of that test can and will be used against you in a courtroom. I have seen it happen more than once.

When you are a licensed professional, you forfeit many opportunities to claim ignorance or to blame someone else. You are expected to know what is right in the mind of the consumer and by extension, the court.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Keefer w said:


> I'm not understand this completely^^. Since it's a replacement, it's legal per my code. That's what you are saying in the 2nd part? And the 1st part; in KY and ma code it's OK to do?


??????????, the point is there is no interpretation . Black and white, replacement needs to be brought up to code. Period. This is a safety violation, I don't care what it looks like I'm not living there, I know when I walk away from an inspection I performed on the proper valve I will sleep just fine. What don't you people understand about this topic. SAFETY, SAFETY!!!!!

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

plumbdrum said:


> ??????????, the point is there is no interpretation . Black and white, replacement needs to be brought up to code. Period. This is a safety violation, I don't care what it looks like I'm not living there, I know when I walk away from an inspection I performed on the proper valve I will sleep just fine. What don't you people understand about this topic. SAFETY, SAFETY!!!!!


Dang it Sparky! Now see what you've done.

I hate having to publicly agree with an inspector. :laughing: :jester:


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> So this is what we're down to? Damn the code if it ain't pretty. I hate to sound like a boy scout on this but HOLY CRAP! Has no one ever heard of professionally licensed tradesmen being sued for willfully endangering their customer? "But the customer signed a waiver after disapproving of the pictures" you say? Geez, a 1st year law student taking classes on line would chew you up and spit you to the dogs. This next is information from more than one attorney directly to me regarding waivers in specific cases where I was called as a witness. This is not legal advice for anyone else. You should seek your own specific answers from your own attorney that is familiar with you and your circumstances. Now with the disclaimer out of the way... Waivers are not ironclad for either side. For instance, a parent cannot legally give up the right for someone to be sued on behalf of that parents child. A parent cannot sign away the right of a child to sue for injuries. There are instances where an adult can sign away their own rights to sue and they are often enforceable. That enforceable agreement must be based on legal activity. For instance, a company cannot escape liability if they are breaking the law within the agreement. How might this apply to plumbing? The easy target is water heaters. If a customer is given a choice on a water heater install. One option is to elevate it 18" in the garage and the other is to put it back like the old one. The customer doesn't want it up in the air. The want the look they had before so they sign a waiver freeing the contractor from liability in the event it blows up. The agreed upon installation is illegal and the prosecuting attorney will easily show that a licensed Plumber new it was not only illegal, but dangerous as well. Shower faucets. 130-140 deg water can cause severe 3rd degree burns on children in just a few short seconds. It happens and that is why the pressure balanced code is in every code book in the country. Even Kentucky. A parent cannot sign away the child's right to pursue damages. And as legal guardian, the parent (even though they waived responsibility), could sue for millions on behalf of their child.


I think it's just you and I that get it.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Keefer w (Jan 26, 2012)

plumbdrum said:


> ??????????, the point is there is no interpretation . Black and white, replacement needs to be brought up to code. Period. This is a safety violation, I don't care what it looks like I'm not living there, I know when I walk away from an inspection I performed on the proper valve I will sleep just fine. What don't you people understand about this topic. SAFETY, SAFETY!!!!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


I gotcha. I read that ky code (where I used to live), and icc/Virginia code (presently live) both say no. Just wanted to clarify what you where were posting. That I understood you correctly. I used to replace a two or three handle because the company I worked for stocked them in our trucks as s.o.p.. I have since in the years have stopped accepting the company line and stand for the trade.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Keefer w said:


> I gotcha. I read that ky code (where I used to live), and icc/Virginia code (presently live) both say no. Just wanted to clarify what you where were posting. That I understood you correctly. I used to replace a two or three handle because the company I worked for stocked them in our trucks as s.o.p.. I have since in the years have stopped accepting the company line and stand for the trade.


Oh boy you got me, someday some lawsuit will get you.

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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I'm curios to the exact reading of the code.

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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

plumbdrum said:


> Oh boy you got me, someday some lawsuit will get you. Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


My apologies , read your post wrong

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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

plumbdrum said:


> I think it's just you and I that get it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plumbdrum said:


> So now we have 2 people that don't know. If it is for TUB only with NO shower attachments your ok, other than that it is single Hanse, anti-scald, pressure balanced or thermostatic with a limit stop. Your opening yourself, the consumer and if your AHJ if he looks the other way your all going to have a REAL problem with someone getting scalded.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


nope,you can use them on showers here as long as it is a replacement,dont matter if tub or tub and shower or shower only


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> these guys really hosed you down pretty good and got you into a mess with that faucet replacement.. glad the tile never hair line cracked or fell out on you........:yes::laughing:.
> 
> I will 100% agree with you that some of those faucet
> replacements looked pretty ugly...It all looks like something I have seen in a trailer park home.....
> ...


do they have the kind of front eschutions that are deep threaded that way they will grab the first few threads stickin out of the wall,what I have run into on a banner tub faucet is they way they are made they have to be almost right up against the edge of the wall for the eschutions to thread on and start.the old deltas that you talked about that were discontinued worked good,they were long stemmed and the eschutions worked good on thick walls.i have had to hack a wall apart just to get a faucet close enough to stick thru the wall and get eschutions started.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plbgbiz said:


> Dang it Sparky! Now see what you've done.
> 
> I hate having to publicly agree with an inspector. :laughing: :jester:


it does burn(no pun intended)lolololol:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

sparky said:


> nope,you can use them on showers here as long as it is a replacement,dont matter if tub or tub and shower or shower only


Give me your code reference that says it.

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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> plumbdrum said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's just you and I that get it.
> ...


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

If the inspector is doing his job he will verify legal temp out of valve, here in Ma it's 112F. What happens after they leave is on whoever turns it up. Municipality is not responsible after, and the plumber should not turn it up for the homeowner also. If the homeowner does it it's on them, but the plumber should explain the dangers to the customer.

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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plumbdrum said:


> Give me your code reference that says it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


its not in the book,if its not in the book then it means its a gray area,in the book they are talkin about new installations,new meaning after the scald guard pressure balance law took effect,i remember a big discussion about this back when this law passed,and if memory serves me right,it was said by some higher ups in Frankfort at the divison of plumbing that as long as the 2handle/3handles were available they could be replaced in the older homes with no inspection.this may have changed and I don't know about it,next time I get an inspection I will ask the plumbing gods,and I just got two the other day.you are right about what you are saying,im not saying you are not,im just saying that it is legal to replace the older homes with the same type faucet until the house falls down or they don't make the faucets anymore,EVENTUALLY it will be that all you can buy is the single handle valves and there will be no discussion about any of this.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plumbdrum said:


> If the inspector is doing his job he will verify legal temp out of valve, here in Ma it's 112F. What happens after they leave is on whoever turns it up. Municipality is not responsible after, and the plumber should not turn it up for the homeowner also. If the homeowner does it it's on them, but the plumber should explain the dangers to the customer.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


in 22yrs of bein around plumbing I have never seen an inspector in ky use a thermometer and check hot water temp.,never seen it,only time I have seen anyone check hot water temp is the health dept,when they come out and inspect food serving establishments and things like that.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

plumbdrum said:


> If the inspector is doing his job he will verify legal temp out of valve, here in Ma it's 112F. What happens after they leave is on whoever turns it up. Municipality is not responsible after, and the plumber should not turn it up for the homeowner also. If the homeowner does it it's on them, but the plumber should explain the dangers to the customer.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


probably not a bad idea tho,they should have been doing it sounds like.


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## Keefer w (Jan 26, 2012)

plumbdrum said:


> Oh boy you got me, someday some lawsuit will get you.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


I'm not trying to "get" anybody. I'm not trying to start ****e. I own a KY code book, saw the ky section posted in here, and I have the 2012 icc edition. I said I avoid replacing a non protected valve with another non anti scald valve. That's it. How am I opening myself to a law suit?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Keefer w said:


> I'm not trying to "get" anybody. I'm not trying to start ****e. I own a KY code book, saw the ky section posted in here, and I have the 2012 icc edition. I said I avoid replacing a non protected valve with another non anti scald valve. That's it. How am I opening myself to a law suit?


I apologized already, miss read your original quote

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## Keefer w (Jan 26, 2012)

plumbdrum said:


> I apologized already, miss read your original quote
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


I had to go back to see the apology,. Accepted.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> Master Mark said:
> 
> 
> > heck every plumber I know always sets the scald guard button over as far to the hot as it will go,and that is scalding hot water,so whats the difference???you can get scalded from a single handle scald guard faucet justs as easily as from a 2-3 handle faucet.i agree with ya brother,if its replacement,it is legal to replace with a 2handle or 3handle faucet.
> ...


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

I searched for any lawsuits over a bathtub valve scalding and couldn't find one. There were a few about too hot water heaters in hotels and federal welfare apartments, but those are easy lawsuit targets, but nothing specifically about bathtub valves.

If the government wants to protect us from burning ourselves, limiting the water heater temps makes more sense.

Or banning bathing altogether. People drown in bathtubs all the time.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

You guys keep going back and forth on a non issue. If the customer wants to keep a two handle faucet, then put a thermostatic mixing valve on the hot line feeding it. This would satisfy the code, and limit the hot water to say 110. Problem solved. I won't put a new valve in that doesn't meet code either. There is a way to make it meet code, and those are the only options I'm interested in.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

RW Plumbing said:


> You guys keep going back and forth on a non issue. If the customer wants to keep a two handle faucet, then put a thermostatic mixing valve on the hot line feeding it. This would satisfy the code, and limit the hot water to say 110. Problem solved. I won't put a new valve in that doesn't meet code either. There is a way to make it meet code, and those are the only options I'm interested in.


My code says single handle anti scald, your still wrong

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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Plumber said:


> I searched for any lawsuits over a bathtub valve scalding and couldn't find one. There were a few about too hot water heaters in hotels and federal welfare apartments, but those are easy lawsuit targets, but nothing specifically about bathtub valves.
> 
> If the government wants to protect us from burning ourselves, limiting the water heater temps makes more sense.
> 
> Or banning bathing altogether. People drown in bathtubs all the time.


 
So you cant find an instance where someone got sued or got scalded from bathing in hot water.....

I bet if you do a search, you will find numerous folks in your state that have won the power ball over the past decade or two... and then pissed it all away...

. and statistically speaking...everyone takes a bath every day but far fewer folks play the power ball.....


can you say the odds are as-tro-nom-ical


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## Keefer w (Jan 26, 2012)




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## Eric (Jan 10, 2011)

*Disabled Man Suffers Burns From Shower*

*Disabled Man Suffers Burns From Shower*

and this was in a Nursing Home!

http://www.ketv.com/Disabled-Man-Suffers-Burns-From-Shower/10130260


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Wow, 120F at shower? It's 112F her in ma, residential HW 120-130 at faucets

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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Eric said:


> *Disabled Man Suffers Burns From Shower*
> 
> and this was in a Nursing Home!
> 
> http://www.ketv.com/Disabled-Man-Suffers-Burns-From-Shower/10130260


 
Hey, you found one..... and in a nurseing home..
I wonder how the pressure balanced valve failed


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> So you cant find an instance where someone got sued or got scalded from bathing in hot water.....
> 
> I bet if you do a search, you will find numerous folks in your state that have won the power ball over the past decade or two... and then pissed it all away...
> 
> ...


What is your chance of getting struck by lightning? Do you run outside to play in a thunderstorm since those odds are pretty astronomical?

Maybe the reason that their aren't many cases of scalding injuries to report is because pressure balancing valves have been required for over 20 years in many areas.


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## joecypress (Jun 16, 2009)

I cannot imagine. I haven't installed a two handle valve in at least 20 years. Probably longer. We were cutting out 2 handles and installing old style Moens before the pressure balancing valves were code.


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## Plumber Mark (Mar 14, 2014)

I don't know why a plumber would risk putting in a two handle tub/shower valve these days. Lawyers are like sharks waiting for their prey. In my state code requires replacement with a anti scald or posi temp valve. No grandfather rules for this. Yes it can be a ***** sometimes but why take the easy way out? If plumbing were easy everybody would want to do it. In 2012 minnesota added to this requirement for bathtubs, whirlpool bathtubs and whirlpool pedicure tubs. 4715.1240 sub part 4-Hot water temperature control device for tubs:Bathtubs and whirlpool tubs must be provided with a water temperature limiting device set at a maximum water temperature of 120 degrees Fahrenheit to reduce the risk of scalding. Device must meet ASSE 1070 standard. Let's face it common sense went by the way side along time ago! This is why there are new rules and laws to protect the people with no common sense! This is how FVIR water heaters came about because people with no sense store gas cans next to their water heater and yep they burn their house down. When I put in a new water heater I never set it past 120 setting per water heater manual. If a homeowner wants it hotter he/she will have to turn it up themselves.


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