# Angle stop remover. any advice??



## MagicJeff13

I was going to get the pasco tool or the rigid? I know alot of guys who use the pasco type,where it is a tool for the 1/2 '' or 3/8 '' out going water supply on the angle stop that screws on. Then the other tool goes around the compression nut in the back.
Any advice? thanks Jeff


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## easttexasplumb

Go with rigid.


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## MagicJeff13

So you have used the rigid tool for removing the angle stops? It's the one where the one tool slides into the other,when not in use. thanks.


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## DesertOkie

I like the Ridgid wrench set. I also like the little screw on tool that looks like the dumbbell. The ridgid small wrench for the 3/8 comp nut is awesome.


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## Widdershins

MagicJeff13 said:


> So you have used the rigid tool for removing the angle stops? It's the one where the one tool slides into the other,when not in use. thanks.


An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/.

The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession)

Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field.

This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is.

We look forward to your valuable input.


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## sparky

MagicJeff13 said:


> I was going to get the pasco tool or the rigid? I know alot of guys who use the pasco type,where it is a tool for the 1/2 '' or 3/8 '' out going water supply on the angle stop that screws on. Then the other tool goes around the compression nut in the back.
> Any advice? thanks Jeff


do not buy either one of them,all you need to do is take a hack saw blade and cut the Ferrell off the pipe,and most times they will slip off once you start fooling with them.just be wasted money


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## Plumbus

sparky said:


> do not buy either one of them,all you need to do is take a hack saw blade and cut the Ferrell off the pipe,and most times they will slip off once you start fooling with them.just be wasted money


I wouldn't trust my guys with a hack saw. The nut and ferrule remover is almost idiot proof (as we all know, nothing is idiot proof). I say well worth the investment just in time saved.


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## sparky

Plumbus said:


> I wouldn't trust my guys with a hack saw. The nut and ferrule remover is almost idiot proof (as we all know, nothing is idiot proof). I say well worth the investment just in time saved.[/QUOTE
> 
> I can take a hacksaw blade and have the Ferrell off faster than you can get tool off the truck


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## Tommy plumber

I used to use my Pasco frequently, but I just bought a duck puller and prefer it over the Pasco. The retainer 'C' clip on the Pasco kept popping off each time I used it.


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## plumbdik

I use the pasco one - once in a blue moon, mostly just a small pair of pliers to pull it off. I was thinking of trying the Saf-T-Cut one which splits the old ferrel.


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## Letterrip

Hey sparky!! How fast you think you can go and do that requested introduction. I don't seem to see one.


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## ibeplumber

I have the Superior Tool puller. Picked it up just because it was on clearance. It works great use it all the time, can't believe I wasted so much time without one. Get one! 









I was going to get the Pasco version but found this one locally.


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## sparky

Letterrip said:


> Hey sparky!! How fast you think you can go and do that requested introduction. I don't seem to see one.


already done my brother,calm down,everything be alright:thumbup:


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## Cal

I have never pulled one off. Does a new valve compress on there in the same spot ? Have I really been kicking my own azz this long ??


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## sparky

Cal said:


> I have never pulled one off. Does a new valve compress on there in the same spot ? Have I really been kicking my own azz this long ??


most of them time it will,BUT sometimes the copper will have a groove where the Ferrell was tightened with a 36inch pipe wrench and caused a groove.when this happens I cut wall out and solder coupling further back to get clean pipe to put stop on.


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## crown36

I have the Pasco. Comes in handy.


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## BOBBYTUCSON

I have the bulky pasco one , works great aslong as you keep grease on the threads. I have the safe-t-kut one for when the pasco or superior cant pull the old over-torqued ferrule.i cant knock any of them.pasco my favorite


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## Bigwrenchjosh

Saf T Kut compression ring splitter. Google it. One of my guys bought one for a job where we needed to pull multiple stops. It worked like a champ.


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## MAC

MAC said:


> I have one if these. You can practically get the ferrule off with just your fingers. http://englishtoolco.com/#2695



From another thread


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## BOBBYTUCSON

MAC said:


> From another thread


This is now on my to buy list !


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## Cal

MAC said:


> From another thread


Ok,, I'm ordering one . Hope it works ! I've never owned a puller.


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## Michaelcookplum

I've always used a mini hacksaw and a thin flat head screwdriver. Never had a ferral I couldn't remove, even when they are butted to the escustion. Those two tools are always in my toolbag, so no need for an extra 25$ tool


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## ibeplumber

Michaelcookplum said:


> I've always used a mini hacksaw and a thin flat head screwdriver. Never had a ferral I couldn't remove, even when they are butted to the escustion. Those two tools are always in my toolbag, so no need for an extra 25$ tool


I think we have all done it this way....But...If you have never used a puller try it! It takes no time at all. Like I said I can't believe I wasted so much time not having one. I use it all the time now.


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## ibeplumber

Plus tools are cool! Having the right tool for the job helps keep the pro image.


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## Best Darn Sewer

Cal said:


> Ok,, I'm ordering one . Hope it works ! I've never owned a puller.


We may be the only two on here who have never used one and I have yet to run into a situation where I would need one. I just re-use the ferrule each time w/out an issue. If it's that damaged or needs replacing I will cut right behind the ferrule and solder an adapter or something.


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## gear junkie

Michaelcookplum said:


> I've always used a mini hacksaw and a thin flat head screwdriver. Never had a ferral I couldn't remove, even when they are butted to the escustion. Those two tools are always in my toolbag, so no need for an extra 25$ tool


wait till you get a ferrule on soft copper.


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## plbgbiz

Best Darn Sewer said:


> We may be the only two on here who have never used one and I have yet to run into a situation where I would need one. I just re-use the ferrule each time w/out an issue. If it's that damaged or needs replacing I will cut right behind the ferrule and solder an adapter or something.


+3

Never used one but there have been a couple of times I wish I could have.


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## Best Darn Sewer

plbgbiz said:


> +3
> 
> Never used one but there have been a couple of times I wish I could have.


Well, I guess maybe there were a couple times I could have used it. I just can't remember any. Haha.


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## klempner

i reuse the ferrule. 97%, no problem.


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## klempner

i reuse the ferrule. 97%, no problem.


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## HP plumber

klempner said:


> i reuse the ferrule. 97%, no problem.


I must disagree we call ourselves professionals because we do a professional job and replace the whole part. we don't just leave the existing garbage disposal flange and spin off the old one either because professionals don't cut corners. I would be embarrassed to charge a professional rate and get caught by the customer reusing old parts.


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## Best Darn Sewer

HP plumber said:


> I must disagree we call ourselves professionals because we do a professional job and replace the whole part. we don't just leave the existing garbage disposal flange and spin off the old one either because professionals don't cut corners. I would be embarrassed to charge a professional rate and get caught by the customer reusing old parts.


Then I suggest you stick with your method. Do you replace the flush valve on a two piece toilet every time you replace the flapper?


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## Michaelcookplum

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Then I suggest you stick with your method. Do you replace the flush valve on a two piece toilet every time you replace the flapper?


Why change fill valve if something's wrong with the flapper?


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## Best Darn Sewer

Michaelcookplum said:


> Why change fill valve if something's wrong with the flapper?


I think we may have different terms for different things here. When I say "flush valve" I am talking about the part that the flapper is connected to. The fill valve would be just the actual valve that fills the tank. Like a Fluidmaster.


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## Best Darn Sewer

The only point I was trying to make was that both of those parts, the "flush valve" and "ferrule" are similar in that they do not necessarily need replacing at the same time that you're replacing the parts that are designed to wear out that they are attached to, "angle valve' and "flapper". Unless they are worn out or damaged. Or if it's the Kohler one piece with the twist and lock flush valve. You always replace those with the flapper. Or at least replace the gasket.


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## ibeplumber

klempner said:


> i reuse the ferrule. 97%, no problem.


That's just crazy.....And why? Haven't you ever seen them crack? The new stop comes with a new ferrule why not use it?


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## ibeplumber

ibeplumber said:


> That's just crazy.....And why? Haven't you ever seen them crack? The new stop comes with a new ferrule why not use it?


or do you mean you just leave the old nut and ferrule compressed on the cu. and just screw the new stop on? If so I have seen the 5/8 compression nuts crack.


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## wookie

With all the different tools available its too easy to replace the nut and ferrule. I also put on a new escutheon, looks better.

Habit I have is give a shot of wd-40 on the ferrule it helps.

Don't forget to ream, its very rare to find a stub that has been reamed.


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## sparky

Best Darn Sewer said:


> I think we may have different terms for different things here. When I say "flush valve" I am talking about the part that the flapper is connected to. The fill valve would be just the actual valve that fills the tank. Like a Fluidmaster.


the flushvalve is what the flapper is attached to,your ballcock is what the incoming water goes into,whether it be a fluidmaster,or whatever,that part is called the ballcock.


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## Best Darn Sewer

sparky said:


> the flushvalve is what the flapper is attached to,your ballcock is what the incoming water goes into,whether it be a fluidmaster,or whatever,that part is called the ballcock.


Oh. That's all news to me.


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## HP plumber

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Then I suggest you stick with your method. Do you replace the flush valve on a two piece toilet every time you replace the flapper?


Oh certainly if a flush valve replacement was necessary I would also change the tank to bowl gasket and the tank to bowl bolts and washers and probably the water supply line but here in Cali flappers are sold separately but I tell you I definitely wouldn't reuse the old chain from the old flapper if that's what you were getting at. In regard to one piece toilets if the cost of the flapper was close to the cost of the flush valve and flapper I would most likely change both depending on what the customer would like me todo.


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## redbeardplumber

I'm with best darn... We call em fill valves up
Here... Different terms, different areas....

#4, I've never used a ferrule puller...


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## HP plumber

Don't get me wrong I've been known to reuse old stems and just replace the washers and seats for valves that have hard to find a replacement parts. I just think not doing something as easy as pulling a Farrell is kinda lame nothing personal dude whatever works for you.


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## love2surf927

sparky said:


> the flushvalve is what the flapper is attached to,your ballcock is what the incoming water goes into,whether it be a fluidmaster,or whatever,that part is called the ballcock.



Semantics, ballcock comes from when they had a ball float attached the modern term is a full valve, unless of course it isn't. Lol the point is the terms are interchangeable no need to correct everyone.


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## Best Darn Sewer

HP plumber said:


> Oh certainly if a flush valve replacement was necessary I would also change the tank to bowl gasket and the tank to bowl bolts and washers and probably the water supply line but here in Cali flappers are sold separately but I tell you I definitely wouldn't reuse the old chain from the old flapper if that's what you were getting at. In regard to one piece toilets if the cost of the flapper was close to the cost of the flush valve and flapper I would most likely change both depending on what the customer would like me todo.


That's not what I was getting at. I asked about replacing the flush valve being that's what the flapper attaches to. The chain comes with the flapper.

Look, I don't want to get into a pissing match about who offers the best level of service based on this topic. You suggested that its unprofessional to not replace ferrules when replacing a compression stop and my point was doing that was similar to replacing the flush valve (the part the flapper attaches to, not the chain that hooks the flapper to the tank lever) each time you replace a flapper. If it needs it than of course replace it. If not than don't. Ferrules are designed to be permanent...or as permanent as any man made object can be. I have never ever reused one and had an issue if the depth and size was the same. Never. If I start to than I will address it when I get there. 

Basically, you skin your cat your way and I'll skin mine my way. Neither of us are more or less professional based on that one habit. If on the other hand you're trying to start a ridiculously long and boring thread discussing the pros and cons of ferrule replacement than I am outta here.


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## Best Darn Sewer

HP plumber said:


> I just think not doing something as easy as pulling a Farrell is kinda lame nothing personal dude whatever works for you.


This↑↑ along with the suggestion it is unprofessional to not replace the ferrules are typically going to be taken poorly by most licensed plumbers. I don't take it personally because I don't know you.


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## HP plumber

Ok beat darn sewer i respect you for voicing your opinion no hard feelings I hope. we can move on no worries


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## Best Darn Sewer

HP plumber said:


> Ok beat darn sewer i respect you for voicing your opinion no hard feelings I hope. we can move on no worries


Of course. No worries.


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## sparky

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Oh. That's all news to me.


just tryin to help ya out there brother,we all have brain farts from time to time:laughing:


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## sparky

love2surf927 said:


> Semantics, ballcock comes from when they had a ball float attached the modern term is a full valve, unless of course it isn't. Lol the point is the terms are interchangeable no need to correct everyone.


no you are wrong,even the fluidmasters and the other lame ass float valves all have some sort of ball or float in or on them,hence the term ballcock is what that part of toilet is known as,i called it a fill valve when I didn't know what the heck I was doing as a greenhorn.just sayin


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## Best Darn Sewer

sparky said:


> no you are wrong,even the fluidmasters and the other lame ass float valves all have some sort of ball or float in or on them,hence the term ballcock is what that part of toilet is known as,i called it a fill valve when I didn't know what the heck I was doing as a greenhorn.just sayin


I'm going to go out on a limb here and speak for L2S and say that we both really appreciate the lesson. Very kind of you.


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## redbeardplumber

Really Sparky? Sounds like a green horn comment.... Just sayin


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## Best Darn Sewer

redbeardplumber said:


> really sparky? Sounds like a green horn comment.... Just sayin


...


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## sparky

redbeardplumber said:


> Really Sparky? Sounds like a green horn comment.... Just sayin


ouch??????


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## love2surf927

I get you are just trolling whether it be purposely or not, but you outwardly claiming "no you are WRONG" is a bit over the top. As I said before its semantics really no need to overstep and claim you are the king of plumbing terminology and say others are outwardly wrong. I admit I am taking the bait here, looks like Fluidmaster is callingit a what? To replace "old style" what? 

http://www.fluidmaster.com/our-products/toilet-fill-valves-toilet-parts.html

It's just a paragraph, read it. You should give them a call and call them out too lol. Mentions replacing something there a few lines in, a ballcock?? 

It's just a word but what rubs me the wrong way is you are flat out saying others are wrong like you are some type of authority on plumbing terminology.


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## 4Aces Plumbing

Funny! I learned from some real "old timers" and was usually told always replace the old ballcock with a newer fill valve. If we are going to have some real fun, talk to me about a hose bib vs a sillcock!?!?


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## Cal

Boys boys ,,, go to your neutral corners . 
Of course we have all heard it called both ! It's just more " PC " now to call it a fill valve . Let's face it .. Plumbing is the most sexually translated trade there is AND RIGHTFULLY SO - WE ARE JUST BETTER THEN ALL THE REST ! LOL. ! 

Aside from all that ,, I am very much looking forward to this new nut & ferrel puller ! So many situations where it is all smashed against wall and the customer wants a new shiny flange etc .. 
Have always been under the impression that if you pull the ferrel , a new one won't seal because the pipe has been compressed. 

PLEASE TELL ME IM WRONG so the first time I use this thing I'm not flooding a house or having to cut open walls ?? 

Thx ! 
Cal


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## sparky

love2surf927 said:


> I get you are just trolling whether it be purposely or not, but you outwardly claiming "no you are WRONG" is a bit over the top. As I said before its semantics really no need to overstep and claim you are the king of plumbing terminology and say others are outwardly wrong. I admit I am taking the bait here, looks like Fluidmaster is callingit a what? To replace "old style" what?
> 
> http://www.fluidmaster.com/our-products/toilet-fill-valves-toilet-parts.html
> 
> It's just a paragraph, read it. You should give them a call and call them out too lol. Mentions replacing something there a few lines in, a ballcock??
> 
> It's just a word but what rubs me the wrong way is you are flat out saying others are wrong like you are some type of authority on plumbing terminology.


don't get all bent out of shape,im just tellin ya that that is what the proper name of the parts that the poster was talkin about,whether you agree with it or not is up to you I could care less,and its your opinion that I am never wrong,but I thankyou for the compliment even tho it is not true.whatever dude


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## sparky

4Aces Plumbing said:


> Funny! I learned from some real "old timers" and was usually told always replace the old ballcock with a newer fill valve. If we are going to have some real fun, talk to me about a hose bib vs a sillcock!?!?


 im gonna take the bait on this one, hose bibb goes in a boiler room,sillcock goes thru the sill of the house for a hose to hook to and it anti-freeze:whistling2:


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## sparky

Cal said:


> Boys boys ,,, go to your neutral corners .
> Of course we have all heard it called both ! It's just more " PC " now to call it a fill valve . Let's face it .. Plumbing is the most sexually translated trade there is AND RIGHTFULLY SO - WE ARE JUST BETTER THEN ALL THE REST ! LOL. !
> 
> Aside from all that ,, I am very much looking forward to this new nut & ferrel puller ! So many situations where it is all smashed against wall and the customer wants a new shiny flange etc ..
> Have always been under the impression that if you pull the ferrel , a new one won't seal because the pipe has been compressed.
> 
> PLEASE TELL ME IM WRONG so the first time I use this thing I'm not flooding a house or having to cut open walls ??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thx !
> Cal


DING DING DING,JERRY,JERRY,JERRY(sorry had to do that)


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## 4Aces Plumbing

sparky said:


> im gonna take the bait on this one, hose bibb goes in a boiler room,sillcock goes thru the sill of the house for a hose to hook to and it anti-freeze:whistling2:


Exactly, it's all terminology, and some of the manufactures even have it different. Hose bibb, boiler drain, sillcock, wall hydrant, etc. call it what you were trained, put it in and make some coin..


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## sparky

Best Darn Sewer said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here and speak for L2S and say that we both really appreciate the lesson. Very kind of you.


thanks guys,appreciate that. anytime.:whistling2:


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## Cal

Ok my stop remover arrived yesterday! Looks good , now to find some willing guinea pig ,,,,


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## sparky

Cal said:


> Ok my stop remover arrived yesterday! Looks good , now to find some willing guinea pig ,,,,


the hunt begins,......one time I used a stop puller like the one you have,i pulled the pipe completely out of the wall,but the stop was still there:laughing:


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## MACPLUMB777

I always just used a pair of vise grips go over the front of the nut set the grips real tite on the nut, but not so tight you cave it in then use the nut to pull the ferrall off ,

but i liked using the puller too


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## Cal

sparky said:


> the hunt begins,......one time I used a stop puller like the one you have,i pulled the pipe completely out of the wall,but the stop was still there:laughing:


 Great ..... Thx.


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## klempner

I like this site because I learn a lot and it’s interesting to see how others do things. If I’ve been doing it wrong all these years, then it’s good to know finally. The following explanation is not an attempt to win the argument but to understand.

I may be wrong, but the fact that a new ferrule is included with the new angle stop is not persuasive to me at all, similar to including a ballcock supply not with the ballcock, which I haven’t used in a decade, or the 3/8 compression nut and ferrule that come with the angle stop, which I almost never use. I would say the reason a nut and ferrule are included with an angle stop is that they are required to make the connection. Manufacturers include a rubber washer, invariably it seems, to use in conjunction with faucet mounting nut, and I invariably throw it away. Manufacturers do all sorts of things that I second guess, like Delta not greasing the bonnet nut—I grease it—and brasscraft not greasing the stem assembly of the angle stop—I grease it—and moen using steel handle screws (roman tub). Manufacturers scar the threads of the water heater inlet nipples, which I do not appreciate; they obviously assumed I was going to use flexes, but they were mistaken. They leave too little nipple sticking out of the top of the water heater, which I do not appreciate. They use steel inlet nipples on the water heater—bad idea. They use little plastic ball-things in the inlet nipples to keep the heat in the tank—bad idea. They emboss their name in the bottom of the toilet tank, right where the bolt washer has to seal—bad idea. They include steel bolts—bad idea.

I appreciate the inclusion of the new ferrule and nut, but it does not weigh heavily with me. I use my own discretion in regard to all sorts of things manufacturers do.

I appreciate the passion for professionalism, and I share it. But I never felt like I was cutting a corner by leaving a compression ferrule. I do know that nuts can crack, although I have never seen one crack on a compression ferrule/stop. I did NOT know ferrules could crack but I’ll take your word for it. However, I have reused a thousand or so nuts, and as far as I know, none have cracked. I have been called to hundreds of flooded houses, but I have never been called to a flooded house caused by a cracked compression nut or a cracked compression ferrule. Not saying it can’t or won’t happen. Just explaining why I might take actually take the bet that I will not see a cracked 5/8 compression nut or ferrule before I retire.

The reason I reuse the ferrule is not because of the trouble involved in removing it—that has absolutely nothing to do with it. As I said, nothing feels like a corner is being cut. The reason I do not reuse the ferrule is because the OD of the copper is less than 5/8” now. I don’t like the idea of putting a ferrule designed for 5/8” copper on copper that is less than 5/8”. Not only is the diameter smaller, but the copper is now sloped, which means the front and the back of the ferrule are not going to grab equally. Which leaves the options of cutting the copper behind the ferrule, or reusing the ferrule. Cutting the copper behind the ferrule is seldom an option because it’s too close to the wall. If the reused ferrule leaks (3%), then I cut the copper and move the stop back, if there’s room, or sweat a coupling and extend pipe. Stubout length in my area is a precious commodity. I don’t as a rule cut the sweated fitting off: I sweat it off because I need as much of the the precious little exposed pipe as I can get.

If it were rubber, it would be different. If it were plastic, it would be different. If it were a lot of things, it would be different. But it’s brass. Brass under many circumstances lasts indefinitely. Perhaps its sort of like reusing the stubout. Perhaps its sort of like reusing an exposed, completely accessible copper male adapter, which I do all the time.

Sometimes they leak. Sometimes the brand new compression nut and ferrule on the brand new piece of copper leaks. It’s not one of my favorite connections. People worry about making a compression connection on L, me included. If I replace the nut and ferrule, it might be L that I’m putting it on—simply don’t know. Brasscraft says compression is ok for M and L, which would seem to imply that the pipe is deformed slightly after installing the ferrule, a deformity not achieved with K, perhaps.

As to charging the customer for something I didn’t actually provide, and therefore misrepresenting myself, I also throw away the 3/8 nut and ferrule. I also throw away the plastic supply nut that comes on the ballcock. I throw away the zamac slipjoint nut that comes with the basket strainer. I throw away the steel tank to bowl bolts that now come on kohler. I throw away the steel closet bolts that come with the toilet. I throw away the zamac tub closure that comes with the waste and overflow. I throw away the new plastic valley handle and reuse the old one. 

I don’t reuse disposal flanges. I agree that that ordinarily would be unprofessional—but not in all cases. Depends on if it’s brushed nickel, say, or deep throat, and if it was attached with silicone rather than putty. Things like that.

But I do leave already installed galvanized stubouts, which are sure to leak eventually, and already installed tub shoes, and already installed male adapters, and already installed non-pressure-balanced tub/shower valves, and already installed polybutylene water service line. I leave already installed gate valves, flush valves, fill valves, angle stops, flexes, all of which might fail and flood a house

Besides nuts splitting, which I’ve not encountered, and ferrules splitting, which I’ve not encountered, and the fact that one comes in the package, what else is there to worry about, exactly? Seriously. I’m perfectly happy to change how I do things, but in this case it will need to be more than the suggestion that it’s akin to reusing a disposal flange, or that one is included in the box. If the danger of nuts and ferrules cracking or whatever is something to start worrying about, then I will. Just never have come across a cracked one, nor had one of mine crack, so it’s not something I’ve had to think about. One thing I will not be doing is installing a new ferrule on top of the indentation left by the last ferrule, except in the very rare case will the old ferrule slides along the pipe.

I called Brasscraft and they said “since there’s often not enough pipe left sticking out of the wall, they realize that the old compression nut and ferrule will often be reused, and that they are leaving that to my professional judgment.” Not exact quote, but almost exact. The implication of course is that it is better to shorten the stubout than to replace the ferrule in the same position. They said they “understand that often the homeowner is not going to want to have to cut the wall open.” The implication of course is that it is better to cut the wall open than to reinstall a new ferrule in the same position—right? The implication is that compression ferrule technology requires shortening the pipe each time it gets replaced. Brasscraft did not say all you have to do is get a ferrule puller and reinstall a new compression ferrule. I also find it relevant that Brasscraft instructions do not address reusing or not reusing ferrules and nuts.

Perhaps its sort of like using my professional judgment as to whether it think the drop ear 90 threads are galled or not. My professional judgment whether to make one more round with the shower arm or not. One more round with the 90 or not. Whether the soft copper is kinked badly enough, or pitted badly enough, or weakened by the flux enough. Whether the decking under the water heater is strong enough. Whether the flue is drawing enough or not. Whether the t&p discharge point poses a safety concern or not. Whether the csst is bonded sufficiently or not. Whether the circ pump is sized properly.

Heretofore, my professional judgment has been that a compression ferrule is a permanent fitting that can be reused, in general. But I always examine it very closely and check for leaks afterward. But I stand to be corrected, always, and am glad to do so. Just would like to understand why.

Insult is the only way some people operate—I’m cool with that. I’m not on this forum to win the argument, but to learn, and become better at what I do. I have been wrong on many things, but in this case I would like to know, in view of the fact that the pipe can only be shortened so many times, what exactly is to be gained. Does brass weaken with age—is it an age thing? Does copper similarly degrade with age? Is it that each stop is slightly different, such that it uniquely compresses the ferrule, such that it will not match up properly with a ferrule that has already been tightened against a different stop? If this is the case, are iron pipe and brass threads NOT plagued with same uniqueness?—they certainly don’t seem to be.


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## Cal

K ,, I don't disagree with you ,, but I like the way this thing works and so far it's been doing great . 

I'm sorry I don't have 5000 more words to express myself ,,,,,


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## redbeardplumber

Fantastic stuff Klempner! All those little thoughts we have over all these seemingly "small" things....

For the record... I reuse, if they look good... If I'm concerned I sweat on like you, or extend and sweat.....

I'm getting by with out this tool...but b/c of this thread it's in the back oft head... And if I come across one....probably a purchase, even though I may never use. Lol


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## JK949

I have the Saf T Kut, two Duck pullers and just got this little baby:

http://englishtoolco.com/

It's the smallest ever made. It's great if there is drain piping or a disposal in the way. If the pipe was crimped this won't make a difference.

I'd the pipe is perfect, the Saf T Kut is smaller and fast. If uncertain, better leverage with the Duck puller. No room? English puller. 

Keep them all dry and properly lubricated.


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## 422 plumber

The two or 3 times I tried to reuse the nut and ferrule, they leaked. So now I always remove them. This has lead to many hours laying in cabinets and vanities, awkwardly trying to cut a ferrule off too short stubouts. I think the English puller is next on the tool purchase list. That being said, has anyone noticed the new leadfree ferrules suck? I had a couple leakers, so now I wrap the ferrules with 3 wraps of tape and haven't had leak since.


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## JK949

No tape for me, clean copper and greased threads.


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## klempner

"The two or 3 times I tried to reuse the nut and ferrule, they leaked."

ive reused perhaps 500. maybe 15 have leaked. you often must shorten the copper about a 1/16".


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## redbeardplumber

I will put a dab of wax on ferrule not tape.... No leaks.... Ever.... Yet... Lol


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## Master Mark

*a compression puller sounds risky to me*



Cal said:


> I have never pulled one off. Does a new valve compress on there in the same spot ? Have I really been kicking my own azz this long ??


 
dont feel too bad...

I have never pulled one off before either , and I dont ever plan on doing it anytime soon..... with my luck I would probably pull the whole nipple out of the wall or start a leak inside the wall:yes::yes:


If I was the guy that originally installed the compression stop it probably would not come off without a huge fight...
I got fore-arms like a gorilla...and I tighten them down.


In my area some of the copper is up to 70 years old
and the last thing I want to do is disturb the solder fittings in the wall.....

So my question is..... if you have the room ....why would you not just use a baby cutter and just cut the copper off behind the stop and install a new one...??? ..

Or if you MUST change that stop, could you not just unscrew the nut and install another stop using the old
nut and Ferrull...??? Is it worth risking all this greif?? 

 would it not be better to just
SOLDER on a new stop and not risk disturbing the plumbing in the walls???

just wondering


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## Cal

Mark , you are correct . Always done it the way you say . However , I have wanted to change MANY and there has been no real way without it going to be a disaster ! 
This little tool and a ratchet are working great on the few I've done !!,
Yes , am being very cautious of the stub out .


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## gear junkie

Master Mark said:


> dont feel too bad...
> 
> I have never pulled one off before either , and I dont ever plan on doing it anytime soon..... with my luck I would probably pull the whole nipple out of the wall or start a leak inside the wall:yes::yes:
> 
> 
> If I was the guy that originally installed the compression stop it probably would not come off without a huge fight...
> I got fore-arms like a gorilla...and I tighten them down.
> 
> 
> In my area some of the copper is up to 70 years old
> and the last thing I want to do is disturb the solder fittings in the wall.....
> 
> So my question is..... if you have the room ....why would you not just use a baby cutter and just cut the copper off behind the stop and install a new one...??? ..
> 
> Or if you MUST change that stop, could you not just unscrew the nut and install another stop using the old
> nut and Ferrull...??? Is it worth risking all this greif??
> 
> would it not be better to just
> SOLDER on a new stop and not risk disturbing the plumbing in the walls???
> 
> just wondering


It puts pressure on the end of the pipe....not the solder joint. Won't damage anything unless it's soft copper.....in which case you're not pulling the ferrule off.


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## tim666

I was under the impression that a properly installed ferrule will actually deform and embed into the copper.


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## Master Mark

tim666 said:


> I was under the impression that a properly installed ferrule will actually deform and embed into the copper.


 

me too....

at least the ones I have installed have been pretty much on there to stay...


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## JK949

I really don't understand the heresy I'm reading on here.

If the pipe Is deformed, cut it off an sweat on a new stub.

Slow drips get ignored many times.


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## klempner

pipe almost always deformed. if going to involve the torch each time, not much incentive to use compression to begin with.


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## PlumberJoeOk

Is it bad when replacing the compression stops to use the old nut and ferrule.?


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## klempner

read back a ways on this thread. i and others do. others insist on pulling the ferrule.


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## JK949

klempner said:


> pipe almost always deformed. if going to involve the torch each time, not much incentive to use compression to begin with.


Depends on who did them originally. If one is deformed in a home, I expect them all to be. If it comes off clean, I want to bid the replacements for the who,e house. Your experiences may vary.


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## plumbdrum

Solder your valve on like it should be done, we are professional plumbers here. Compression connections on street side of valve is homeowner/amateur plumbing at best.

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## love2surf927

plumbdrum said:


> Solder your valve on like it should be done, we are professional plumbers here. Compression connections on street side of valve is homeowner/amateur plumbing at best. Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


We'll I guess that makes every single last plumber in my area including myself an amateur/HO right? I have been in this trade for 9-10 years and have never seen a sweat stop. Lay off the arrogant crap. Compression is no less a professional job when done correctly.


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## plumbdrum

love2surf927 said:


> We'll I guess that makes every single last plumber in my area including myself an amateur/HO right? I have been in this trade for 9-10 years and have never seen a sweat stop. Lay off the arrogant crap. Compression is no less a professional job when done correctly.


The suppliers in my area don't even stock compression, Home Chepo, and Blowes do. Just saying. In my state it's not even approved for compression that's why our suppliers don't sell them. My arrogance is justified in my state . Homeowners cannot perform their own plumbing here. My personal opinion(and code) is that it should be soldered or threaded connections on street side if valve. Sorry if I've offended anyone. I thought the whole point of this Forum was for professional criticism and education. I've tried to do both with my post. Lol

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## 422 plumber

plumbdrum said:


> Solder your valve on like it should be done, we are professional plumbers here. Compression connections on street side of valve is homeowner/amateur plumbing at best.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


How about when you are doing a service call at a nuke plant/coal plant/refinery that requires a hot work permit? Most times I go out by myself. They aren't going to buy my argument that Massachusetts does it this way. It works for you, great, the thread is about ferrule pullers, not how the union has strong armed the Ma. legislature into a stupid rule. I am union, by the way.


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## plumbdrum

What does the union have to do with anything, get the hot work permit and a fire watch and extinguisher and stop your whining.

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## wyrickmech

I have been in this trade for almost 32 years. In that time I have seen sweat stops threaded stops and compression stops . They all work and just because a state uses one over the other doesn't make it inferior. I have found the sweat stops to be rather stupid and we never use them. The threaded ones normally fail at the threaded connection in the wall so compression is preferred.


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## plumbdrum

wyrickmech said:


> I have been in this trade for almost 32 years. In that time I have seen sweat stops threaded stops and compression stops . They all work and just because a state uses one over the other doesn't make it inferior. I have found the sweat stops to be rather stupid and we never use them. The threaded ones normally fail at the threaded connection in the wall so compression is preferred.


It's called good mechanical practice. The valve itself there no difference it's the connection that I have a problem with. If someone did not make a proper connection there is a chance of the valve blowing right off, also there is always a chance of the nut loosening up and causing a leak if it's allowed in your region I guess go for it. It won't happen here in the peoples public of Massachusetts. Lol

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## plumbdrum

Opps PEOPLE's REPUBLIC. Lol

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## Bayside500

plumbdrum said:


> It's called good mechanical practice. The valve itself there no difference it's the connection that I have a problem with. If someone did not make a proper connection there is a chance of the valve blowing right off, also there is always a chance of the nut loosening up and causing a leak if it's allowed in your region I guess go for it. It won't happen here in the peoples public of Massachusetts. Lol
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


my house was built in 1969, compression stops on copper, i don't see "a nut loosening up" any time soon LOL


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## 422 plumber

plumbdrum said:


> What does the union have to do with anything, get the hot work permit and a fire watch and extinguisher and stop your whining.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Glad you'er in a socialist state. Hurrah for you. Your code is the best, everyone else is a hack. #Sweatstopstrong


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## plbgbiz

plumbdrum said:


> It's called good mechanical practice. The valve itself there no difference it's the connection that I have a problem with. If someone did not make a proper connection there is a chance of the valve blowing right off, also there is always a chance of the nut loosening up and causing a leak if it's allowed in your region I guess go for it. It won't happen here in the peoples public of Massachusetts. Lol Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Good to know sweat fittings don't blow off or leak. :thumbup:


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## plumbdrum

plbgbiz said:


> Good to know sweat fittings don't blow off or leak. :thumbup:


Or the copper going to it. It's about the integrity of the connection. Like I said keep doing it your way...... I'll worry about soldered here.

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## plumbdrum

422 plumber said:


> Glad you'er in a socialist state. Hurrah for you. Your code is the best, everyone else is a hack. #Sweatstopstrong


I've got a Hitler mustache also.

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## 422 plumber

plumbdrum said:


> I've got a Hitler mustache also.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


with the high and tight with flopping bangs?


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## wyrickmech

plumbdrum said:


> It's called good mechanical practice. The valve itself there no difference it's the connection that I have a problem with. If someone did not make a proper connection there is a chance of the valve blowing right off, also there is always a chance of the nut loosening up and causing a leak if it's allowed in your region I guess go for it. It won't happen here in the peoples public of Massachusetts. Lol Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


 where is it written that a compression joint isn't a good mechanical practice? Has it been proven over time? And seriously a compression joint on a stop will not loosen if installed properly. I have seen a building subjected to 150 psi with all compression stops nothing blew except a Sloan valve. The practices of one state doesn't make it the best practice. I guess you don't alow flare joints either.


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## plumbdrum

wyrickmech said:


> where is it written that a compression joint isn't a good mechanical practice? Has it been proven over time? And seriously a compression joint on a stop will not loosen if installed properly. I have seen a building subjected to 150 psi with all compression stops nothing blew except a Sloan valve. The practices of one state doesn't make it the best practice. I guess you don't alow flare joints either.



First off, I don't think they make a valve like the the topic at hand but if they did I would rather see a flared connection than a compression. At least there is no chance of blowing off, still could loosen but it is a better connection .

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## wyrickmech

plumbdrum said:


> First off, I don't think they make a valve like the the topic at hand but if they did I would rather see a flared connection than a compression. At least there is no chance of blowing off, still could loosen but it is a better connection . Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


both are ground joints they use no sealants and are dependent on water tight contact with the other metal. The chance of a compression valve blowing off is almost as small as a sweat joint blowing apart. It also is a fact the brass ring when installed correctly compresses and is then smaller than the pipe at this point it would not be able to blow off anymore than a flare joint.


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## Cal

wyrickmech said:


> I have been in this trade for almost 32 years. In that time I have seen sweat stops threaded stops and compression stops . They all work and just because a state uses one over the other doesn't make it inferior. I have found the sweat stops to be rather stupid and we never use them. The threaded ones normally fail at the threaded connection in the wall so compression is preferred.


 Was going to say the same thing ! Started putting them in 34 years ago,,, guess I'll just keep waiting fir them to blow right off the pipe.


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## JK949

The plastic stem in many stops is most likely to blow off when force has been applied to a.seized valve. I've changed many commpression stops, some which loosened very easily with the wrenches, some with rings that slid right off the pipe, I've never seen one blow completely off.


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## rjbphd

JK949 said:


> The plastic stem in many stops is most likely to blow off when force has been applied to a.seized valve. I've changed many commpression stops, some which loosened very easily with the wrenches, some with rings that slid right off the pipe, I've never seen one blow completely off.


Which is why ya suppose to silly cone the stem!


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## love2surf927

rjbphd said:


> Which is why ya suppose to silly cone the stem!


That's the way I was taught remove the packing nut and lube the stem, threads and o-rings and put it all back together. Makes a world of difference.


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## rjbphd

love2surf927 said:


> That's the way I was taught remove the packing nut and lube the stem, threads and o-rings and put it all back together. Makes a world of difference.


A real plumber here...


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## love2surf927

JK949 said:


> The plastic stem in many stops is most likely to blow off when force has been applied to a.seized valve. I've changed many commpression stops, some which loosened very easily with the wrenches, some with rings that slid right off the pipe, I've never seen one blow completely off.


I have removed compression stops that I was literally able to pull the nut and ferrule off with my fingers, I don't know how they stayed on, or didn't leak.


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## MAC

I'm from mass, show me where in the code states you can't use compression stops? And you can only use compression or threaded on the street side of meter no solder unless on house side of meter. My local inspector is a stickler and has never had an issue with comp stops


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## plumbdrum

It's in the joints and connections, flared is allowed

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## plumbdrum

248 CMR 10.07 (2) (a) also 10.07 (k)

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## MAC

That's just the approved methods of joining copper tube. There's nothing in the code that says you can't use compression stops.


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## plumbdrum

MAC said:


> That's just the approved methods of joining copper tube. There's nothing in the code that says you can't use compression stops.


Ok, are you connecting a valve to copper tube? It's still a fitting connection. Show me where it says compression?

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## plumbdrum

I have an local inspectors meeting tonight, I'll get a consensus about the topic and get back to you. The way I read it and was taught was no compression on street side.

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## wyrickmech

plumbdrum said:


> Ok, are you connecting a valve to copper tube? It's still a fitting connection. Show me where it says compression? Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


just wondering how do you connect fittings in underground water mains? Our code here states compression is legal. I think 98% of the codes will state it is ok. You are on the loosing end of this argument.


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## plumbdrum

Ok, so I called Boston, AND I am wrong, I apologize . In my defense the code is written wright. What has happened was influxes of modular homes have changed things. Like usual they send no updates. That being said I don't agree with it and still feel the same way about the connection. I was taught in school and the trade about street side connections. So agin my apologies , hopefully the state updates our code soon so there is no more confusion on codes

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## plumbdrum

wyrickmech said:


> just wondering how do you connect fittings in underground water mains? Our code here states compression is legal. I think 98% of the codes will state it is ok. You are on the loosing end of this argument.


In Ma, usually the Municipality runs the water service in. They use either a flared connection or ( here we go,LOL) a compressions style connection,WITH a locking screw ( Ford Fitting) . The thing is my code starts after the meter, so I have no jurisdiction on it. But like in my last post, I have been corrected by my Board. We are still working on a code from 2005 and sometimes not all updates get back to us all the time, and my coved book says that it can't be done, oh huh well , can't win them all.

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## plumbdrum

Hold on, I got a call back, the board is looking into it further, they're saying they believe their decision based on Manufactured homes only. To be continued.........

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## natem1986

plumbdrum said:


> In Ma, usually the Municipality runs the water service in. They use either a flared connection or ( here we go,LOL) a compressions style connection,WITH a locking screw ( Ford Fitting) . The thing is my code starts after the meter, so I have no jurisdiction on it. But like in my last post, I have been corrected by my Board. We are still working on a code from 2005 and sometimes not all updates get back to us all the time, and my coved book says that it can't be done, oh huh well , can't win them all.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


I've heard new version of MA code is coming out soon. In the next couple years?


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## plumbdrum

natem1986 said:


> I've heard new version of MA code is coming out soon. In the next couple years?


Yes, they are working on Gas modifications first

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