# Defective FlowGuard Gold cpvc pipe



## Protech

I've been getting a lot of leak calls on clvc lately where the pipe splits down the center no where near a fitting. I decided to cross section the pipe and found extrusion defects on the inside wall of the pipe. The defects are little valleys that run the whole length of the pipe.

So why has this not resulted in law suits? 

Pictures and video to follow.


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## No-hub

imo, all flowguard is defective.


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## domd

*Work with the manufacturers*

Dear Pro-Tech,

I am with The Lubrizol Corporation, producers of the CPVC materials used by quality manufacturers to produce FlowGuard Gold(R) pipe and fittings. Thank you for sharing your experiences with FlowGuard Gold CPVC with this group. When quality concerns arise, we suggest determining the manufacturer of the pipe in question, and contacting them directly with your concerns. The manufacturer name should be displayed prominently on the print line of the pipe, along with other information that may constitute a manufacturing date code and a production unit where it was made. The manufacturers work with experts in plastic failure analysis who identify failure modes through visual and high-tech means. They will be able to help determine the cause of the problems that you've identified in your post.

I hope this was helpful and that you and your customers find value in the resources that are available. For additional information, please visit our website at www.lubrizolcpvc.com, or feel free to contact our technical support line at 855-735-1431 to reach a piping system consultant near you.

Thanks and Best Regards,
Domenic DeCaria
Market Development Manager
The Lubrizol Corporation


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

No-hub said:


> imo, all flowguard is defective.




I'm with ya. I think it's junk.


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## Protech

domd said:


> Dear Pro-Tech,
> 
> I am with The Lubrizol Corporation, producers of the CPVC materials used by quality manufacturers to produce FlowGuard Gold(R) pipe and fittings. Thank you for sharing your experiences with FlowGuard Gold CPVC with this group. When quality concerns arise, we suggest determining the manufacturer of the pipe in question, and contacting them directly with your concerns. The manufacturer name should be displayed prominently on the print line of the pipe, along with other information that may constitute a manufacturing date code and a production unit where it was made. The manufacturers work with experts in plastic failure analysis who identify failure modes through visual and high-tech means. They will be able to help determine the cause of the problems that you've identified in your post.
> 
> I hope this was helpful and that you and your customers find value in the resources that are available. For additional information, please visit our website at www.lubrizolcpvc.com, or feel free to contact our technical support line at 855-735-1431 to reach a piping system consultant near you.
> 
> Thanks and Best Regards,
> Domenic DeCaria
> Market Development Manager
> The Lubrizol Corporation


It is an internal defect from extrusion. Internal valleys that run along the length of the pipe on the inside. This is a fairly well understood defect.

The real question is, what is the manufacturer going to do about it?

Who is going to pay to have the house repiped? Who is going to pay for the water damages the the homes interior?


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## Protech

The defective cpvc pipe:


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## Protech

close up. Notice the striations on the inside wall of the pipe. These eventually form cracks that travel to the outside of the pipe wall.


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## GREENPLUM

I cant find warranty information on the Lubrizol CPVC website.

I typed in " Lubrizol CPVC Warranty " into google search and no warranty came up

I typed in " CPVC Warranty " in the Lubrizol website search bar and no results were found

Hopefully the rep will post one up for us to read. :thumbsup:


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## GREENPLUM

I found the Charlotte Pipe CPVC Warranty, quick google search and it was the first hit.

http://www.charlottepipe.com/Default.aspx?Page=Warranties


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## Protech

Their warranty doesn't cover jack. To summarize: "Mail us the pipe. If we admit the pipe is defective, we'll mail you a new one.

The warranty doesn't matter though because Florida has "implied merchant ability" laws. This home is less than 10 years old so Florida's latent defect law applies.

Basically the owner must go after the builder, the builder will then go after the plumber and then the plumber will go after Flow Guard.


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## domd

GREENPLUM said:


> I cant find warranty information on the Lubrizol CPVC website.
> 
> I typed in " Lubrizol CPVC Warranty " into google search and no warranty came up
> 
> I typed in " CPVC Warranty " in the Lubrizol website search bar and no results were found
> 
> Hopefully the rep will post one up for us to read. :thumbsup:



Very good point. Lubrizol does not manufacture the pipe or fittings. The warranty is written by the manufacturer of the pipe. That is why anyone who has an issue with pipe or fittings needs to determine who the manufacturer is before they or their insurance representative can work with them on a resolution. 

For additional clarification, FlowGuard Gold(R) is a registered trademark owned by Lubrizol that describes the material used to produce the pipe. It is not an entity unto itself that produces pipes or fittings.

Again, I hope this is helpful, and please don't hesitate to call with additional questions for clarification.

Sincerely,
Domenic


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## Protech

Video of the repair:


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## TallCoolOne

Protech said:


> Video of the repair:


Cool video, 

Still stange to see PCVC used for water piping


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## Michaelcookplum

This guy spent more then 3 minutes scraping and cleaning the pipe. Wow, obviously working by the hour and wasting time. Also, why not just glue back cpvc. Two couplings and pipe would be a lot better and cheaper then Pex adapters. Oh yea, more money to charge the customer. Besides, gluing Pex adapters on you still have to wait an hour or so to turn the water back on. I would have replaced pipe with cpvc. 

Just my two cents


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## TallCoolOne

Michaelcookplum said:


> This guy spent more then 3 minutes scraping and cleaning the pipe. Wow, obviously working by the hour and wasting time. Also, why not just glue back cpvc. Two couplings and pipe would be a lot better and cheaper then Pex adapters. Oh yea, more money to charge the customer. Besides, gluing Pex adapters on you still have to wait an hour or so to turn the water back on. I would have replaced pipe with cpvc.
> 
> Just my two cents


I would think Sharkbites are better than glued anything on CPVC.

But again, I dont use sharkbites on waterlines and have never seen CPVC used on water either


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## Will

Michaelcookplum said:


> This guy spent more then 3 minutes scraping and cleaning the pipe. Wow, obviously working by the hour and wasting time. Also, why not just glue back cpvc. Two couplings and pipe would be a lot better and cheaper then Pex adapters. Oh yea, more money to charge the customer. Besides, gluing Pex adapters on you still have to wait an hour or so to turn the water back on. I would have replaced pipe with cpvc.
> 
> Just my two cents



I haven't watched the video yet, but I'm 99.99% Protech ain't T&M. If you know Protechs options on CPVC, you would know why he didn't go back with CPVC.


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## Bayside500

never cut old brittle CPVC pipe with those type of cutters, use a mini hacksaw or mini tubing cutters and go easy with them, otherwise you risk the chance of the old CPVC spliting


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## bkplumber

I like how he wipes the glue off the fitting then back on the can. Messy! Oh yea cpvc is junk!


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## Bayside500

bkplumber said:


> I like how he wipes the glue off the fitting then back on the can. Messy! Oh yea cpvc is junk!


it surprises me how many plumbers do not have rags handy when doing anything plumbing related, i always have a few around for wiping up messes.

Mr. Protec, not hating on ya, just something i have noticed in general.............


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## Will

Bayside500 said:


> never cut old brittle CPVC pipe with those type of cutters, use a mini hacksaw or mini tubing cutters and go easy with them, otherwise you risk the chance of the old CPVC spliting


I don't run much CPVC, when using the mini cutters are you using a standard cutter wheel?


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## Bayside500

Will said:


> I don't run much CPVC, when using the mini cutters are you using a standard cutter wheel?


i did use them once or twice just to see if they worked, and yes they do, these are what i have.........

http://www.professionalequipment.co...wheel-1-4-to-1-1-8-40617/tubing-and-fittings/


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## Widdershins

Bayside500 said:


> never cut old brittle CPVC pipe with those type of cutters, use a mini hacksaw or mini tubing cutters and go easy with them, otherwise you risk the chance of the old CPVC spliting


I use my hackzall or a hacksaw for cutting CPVC -- A mini tubing cutter or the type of cutter used in the video will leave a ridge on the pipe which will then push the glue out of the fitting.

Any of you guys still using CPVC or making repairs on CPVC should be carrying and using a Reaming/Beveling tool on every cut, no matter the method used to cut it.


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## Protech

Michaelcookplum said:


> This guy spent more then 3 minutes scraping and cleaning the pipe. Wow, obviously working by the hour and wasting time. Also, why not just glue back cpvc. Two couplings and pipe would be a lot better and cheaper then Pex adapters. Oh yea, more money to charge the customer. Besides, gluing Pex adapters on you still have to wait an hour or so to turn the water back on. I would have replaced pipe with cpvc.
> 
> Just my two cents


Except im flat rate....


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## Protech

Widdershins said:


> I use my hackzall or a hacksaw for cutting CPVC -- A mini tubing cutter or the type of cutter used in the video will leave a ridge on the pipe which will then push the glue out of the fitting.
> 
> Any of you guys still using CPVC or making repairs on CPVC should be carrying and using a Reaming/Beveling tool on every cut, no matter the method used to cut it.


Thats why i scraped the bur off the pipe.


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## Protech

bkplumber said:


> I like how he wipes the glue off the fitting then back on the can. Messy! Oh yea cpvc is junk!


Im sorry my cans are not pretty enough for your standards.....not


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## Protech

Bayside500 said:


> never cut old brittle CPVC pipe with those type of cutters, use a mini hacksaw or mini tubing cutters and go easy with them, otherwise you risk the chance of the old CPVC spliting


I dont like tubing cutters because they get oil on the cpvc. I do use a hacksaw balde if the pipe is brittle. I didnt do that here because i didnt want shavings in the system.


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## Mississippiplum

Protech said:


> I dont like tubing cutters because they get oil on the cpvc. I do use a hacksaw balde if the pipe is brittle. I didnt do that here because i didnt want shavings in the system.


I use a tubing cutter like what you would cut Cu with.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## GREENPLUM

Protech said:


> I dont like tubing cutters because they get oil on the cpvc. I do use a hacksaw balde if the pipe is brittle. I didnt do that here because i didnt want shavings in the system.


The pipe cut in the video was in good shape, really listen to him cut it, if you've ever worked on CPVC and it cuts that well with cutters then it hasn't been installed very long.

That section of pipe could have been mistreated before it was installed. How can you prove it was that way from the factory?


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## Protech

GREENPLUM said:


> The pipe cut in the video was in good shape, really listen to him cut it, if you've ever worked on CPVC and it cuts that well with cutters then it hasn't been installed very long.
> 
> That section of pipe could have been mistreated before it was installed. How can you prove it was that way from the factory?


How in the world could the pipe be handled in a way that would cause lines to form on the inside?


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## PLASTECH

The lines are left from the extrusion process. That said, they need to be examined to identify if they are "normal" or "defective".

Pipe splits in the CPVC Copper Tube Size (CTS) occur most frequently from improperly supported pipe. Supports are needed *every 3ft* on 1" and under, whether its horizontal or vertical. Valves, etc need additional support.

Installation instructions should be obtained from each manufacturer, and must be followed. Lubrizol doesn't have a warranty because they only make the raw material.

Manufacturing processes and their warranties differ, hence the need to be aware of the manufacturer and their warranties.


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## Protech

PLASTECH said:


> The lines are left from the extrusion process. That said, they need to be examined to identify if they are "normal" or "defective".
> 
> Pipe splits in the CPVC Copper Tube Size (CTS) occur most frequently from improperly supported pipe. Supports are needed *every 3ft* on 1" and under, whether its horizontal or vertical. Valves, etc need additional support.
> 
> Installation instructions should be obtained from each manufacturer, and must be followed. Lubrizol doesn't have a warranty because they only make the raw material.
> 
> Manufacturing processes and their warranties differ, hence the need to be aware of the manufacturer and their warranties.


A. Who the heck are you? Intro please.

B. Where do you get a vertical support interval of 3 feet from?


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## PLASTECH

I'm in Tech Service for Plastic Manufacturing. 12 years extrusion, 8 injection molding. I'm on the training and trouble-shooting end. The support spacing I reference can be found in both the Harvel (now GF) and the Spears installation instructions for CTS.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

Looks like the wolves are out defending their crappy product


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## Protech

PLASTECH said:


> I'm in Tech Service for Plastic Manufacturing. 12 years extrusion, 8 injection molding. I'm on the training and trouble-shooting end. The support spacing I reference can be found in both the Harvel (now GF) and the Spears installation instructions for CTS.


How is it a material made from the same resin to the same specifications can have different spacing depending on what ink is on the side of the pipe?

Also, what is a "normal" amount of striation on the pipe walls?


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## PLASTECH

Not sure of your first question. Whether 2 manufacturers use the same resin, doesn't mean it's extruded under the same conditions. I don't know that there are different support spacing requirements for different manufacturers, I simply mentioned 2 that are the same.

"Normal" would depend on the internal product specifications for each manufacturer. But I wouldn't think that anyone is allowing more than 5% of the wall in depth. For example: if min wall of 1/2" is .068" with a tolerance of +.020; the line shouldn't exceed .005".


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## Protech

Bow calls for vertical support at every floor.


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## Michaelcookplum

Protech said:


> Except im flat rate....


Bottom line, u spent over 3 minutes cleaning a pipe.....if your flat rate, then your a great actor for a production. Next time just try sand paper. It cleans cement off pvc in seconds. Then use one step cpvc glue and glue on your unproven bs pex adapter and make some money. 

Us plumbers have to make a living, more power to you fellow plumber


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## GREENPLUM

Michaelcookplum said:


> Bottom line, u spent over 3 minutes cleaning a pipe.....if your flat rate, then your a great actor for a production. Next time just try sand paper. It cleans cement off pvc in seconds. Then use one step cpvc glue and glue on your unproven bs pex adapter and make some money.
> 
> Us plumbers have to make a living, more power to you fellow plumber


 
I dont see the big deal with takin 3 min to clean and prep the pipe, thats the way HE does it. I also dont think he needs yer advise on how to clean CPVC. 

" unproven bs adapter " what r u talkin about?


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## plbgbiz

GREENPLUM said:


> I dont see the big deal with takin 3 min to clean and prep the pipe, thats the way HE does it. I also dont think he needs yer advise on how to clean CPVC.
> 
> " unproven bs adapter " what r u talkin about?


Same here. Looked like a well done repair to me. 

Nice job PT. :thumbup:


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## stillaround

Also not to forget, 10 year cpvc is fairly brittle in places....did a quick repair in a food store with sharkbites and pex and while just casually moving the pipe away from the metal stud...SNAP, whoosh, and fortunately I knew where the shut off was, and there were floor drains.....got to love Floridas infatuation with cpvc and the bright future it presents to the service plumber


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## Justhelicopters

*I had a problem with Flow Guard Gold PVC*

Hi,

My apologies for intruding, I am not a plumber, but a helicopter pilot by trade. I really felt the need to share my experience with the product. I built my own home in 2006 as an owner builder. This was not the first house that I have built, and I did not do the plumbing myself. I had a licensed plumbing contractor do all the work.

In my guest bathroom the plumbers ran a hot water line from an on demand heater through the walls to the set of Delta shower head valves. The pipe used was the Flow Guard Gold PVC pipe.

About a month ago, I noticed some buckling in a laminate floor in a bedroom adjacent that bathroom. It is a 350 sq ft guest suite with higher end laminate flooring designed to hand a lot of traffic.

My initial reaction was that the shower pan was leaking and through a series of tests and poking around (with a licensed plumbing contractor at my side) we were able to determine that there must be a hot water pipe leaking in the back wall of the shower.

Unfortunately it is a 3 sided 4'x7' shower with 10' high tiled walls. 
Fortunately, that back wall was also the exterior wall of the house :thumbsup:

Bottom line: we cut a hole in the side of the house, located the leak and exposed the damp wood. Here is the scary part.....it was not even at a joint. It was a pin hole in the pipe, no where near the joint.

See 2 pictures. You can see the area where the leak was, and then a close up of the leak.

Finally, how in the heck does a 6 year old piece of low pressure PVC just pop a pin hole in the pipe?

This little pinhole will cost me $1200 - $1500 when all said and done. If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere in my home if the same crap pipe was used everywhere else.

Is there some kind of class action suit against the manufacture of this product?


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

I didn't know any laminate flooring could be considered high end. And water lines in an exterior wall are a no no around here due to freezing temps.


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## rjbphd

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> I didn't know any laminate flooring could be considered high end. And water lines in an exterior wall are a no no around here due to freezing temps.


 But didn't flow gaurd brag about it can be freeze and re freeze again vs copper in our contractors magizines??


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## rjbphd

Justhelicopters said:


> Hi,
> 
> My apologies for intruding, I am not a plumber, but a helicopter pilot by trade. I really felt the need to share my experience with the product. I built my own home in 2006 as an owner builder. This was not the first house that I have built, and I did not do the plumbing myself. I had a licensed plumbing contractor do all the work.
> 
> In my guest bathroom the plumbers ran a hot water line from an on demand heater through the walls to the set of Delta shower head valves. The pipe used was the Flow Guard Gold PVC pipe.
> 
> About a month ago, I noticed some buckling in a laminate floor in a bedroom adjacent that bathroom. It is a 350 sq ft guest suite with higher end laminate flooring designed to hand a lot of traffic.
> 
> My initial reaction was that the shower pan was leaking and through a series of tests and poking around (with a licensed plumbing contractor at my side) we were able to determine that there must be a hot water pipe leaking in the back wall of the shower.
> 
> Unfortunately it is a 3 sided 4'x7' shower with 10' high tiled walls.
> Fortunately, that back wall was also the exterior wall of the house :thumbsup:
> 
> Bottom line, we cut a hole in the side of the house located the leak and exposed the damp wood. Here is the scary part.....it was not even at a joint. It was a pin hole in the pipe, no where near the joint.
> 
> See 2 pictures. You can see the area where the leak was, and then a close up of the leak.
> 
> My final thought is, how in the heck does a 6 year old piece of, low pressure PVC just pop a pin hole in the pipe?
> 
> This little pinhole will cost me $1200 - $1500 when all said and done. If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere in my home if the same crap pipe was used everywhere else.
> 
> Is there some kind of class action suit against the manufacture of this product?


 At least you're be honest, but this site is for only you know who..


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## plbgbiz

Justhelicopters said:


> My apologies for intruding, I am not a plumber.....


Thanks for posting on PlumbingZone.com. The Moderators of this forum would prefer if you post Do It Yourself related topics on our sister site www.DIYChatroom.com 

PlumbingZone.com is designed for professional plumbers to discuss issues and topics related to their profession. Many of our plumbers are also members at DIYChatroom.com and are looking forward to assist you with your needs.

Please take a moment to post your question at www.DIYChatroom.com If your not already a member of DIYChatroom.com you can sign up for a free account by going to http://www.diychatroom.com/register.php/


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## Justhelicopters

plbgbiz said:


> Thanks for posting on PlumbingZone.com. The Moderators of this forum would prefer if you post Do It Yourself related topics on our sister site www.DIYChatroom.com
> 
> PlumbingZone.com is designed for professional plumbers to discuss issues and topics related to their profession. Many of our plumbers are also members at DIYChatroom.com and are looking forward to assist you with your needs.
> 
> Please take a moment to post your question at www.DIYChatroom.com If your not already a member of DIYChatroom.com you can sign up for a free account by going to http://www.diychatroom.com/register.php/


Thanks for the polite warning. I own and moderate (since 2001) three of the busiest helicopter forums in the world....so I kind of figured you might smack me on the wrist. I felt compelled to post into this thread, because my question directly related to the discussion of the particular product.

At the time, I was not interested in the perspective of do-it-yourself'ers. I realize that some of the pro's frequent the DIY forum, but at the time, this topic nailed my issue and I felt compelled to give it a shot. My apologies if I caused a problem. As a business owner with little spare time, I like to consult the pro's.....not the weekend warriors.....and reading the posts in this topic, it appears that there are people who know their business, and I appreciate that.

I promise not to cause trouble or post outside this topic in this forum.

Regards,
Lyn Burks


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## user2090

Justhelicopters said:


> Hi,
> 
> My apologies for intruding, I am not a plumber, but a helicopter pilot by trade. I really felt the need to share my experience with the product. I built my own home in 2006 as an owner builder. This was not the first house that I have built, and I did not do the plumbing myself. I had a licensed plumbing contractor do all the work.
> 
> In my guest bathroom the plumbers ran a hot water line from an on demand heater through the walls to the set of Delta shower head valves. The pipe used was the Flow Guard Gold PVC pipe.
> 
> About a month ago, I noticed some buckling in a laminate floor in a bedroom adjacent that bathroom. It is a 350 sq ft guest suite with higher end laminate flooring designed to hand a lot of traffic.
> 
> My initial reaction was that the shower pan was leaking and through a series of tests and poking around (with a licensed plumbing contractor at my side) we were able to determine that there must be a hot water pipe leaking in the back wall of the shower.
> 
> Unfortunately it is a 3 sided 4'x7' shower with 10' high tiled walls.
> Fortunately, that back wall was also the exterior wall of the house :thumbsup:
> 
> Bottom line: we cut a hole in the side of the house, located the leak and exposed the damp wood. Here is the scary part.....it was not even at a joint. It was a pin hole in the pipe, no where near the joint.
> 
> See 2 pictures. You can see the area where the leak was, and then a close up of the leak.
> 
> Finally, how in the heck does a 6 year old piece of low pressure PVC just pop a pin hole in the pipe?
> 
> This little pinhole will cost me $1200 - $1500 when all said and done. If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere in my home if the same crap pipe was used everywhere else.
> 
> Is there some kind of class action suit against the manufacture of this product?



While I know your going to get booted, I thought I would ask anyway. 

Are you certain that a nail was shot into it. By now the nail would have rusted off. I've seen this happen where the trim guy shoots a 3 nail in for some reason and bam.


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## Justhelicopters

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> I didn't know any laminate flooring could be considered high end. And water lines in an exterior wall are a no no around here due to freezing temps.


:laughing: haha....

Not higher end flooring. I said "higher end laminate flooring". Meaning, on the scale of low to high in the laminate flooring relm.....this is not the cheapest stuff they make.

I am in North/Central Florida. A couple light freezes each year, but no way a PVC pipe in an insulated wall, behind particle board and hardy board could freeze here.

Regards,
Lyn Burks


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## Justhelicopters

Indie said:


> While I know your going to get booted, I thought I would ask anyway.
> 
> Are you certain that a nail was shot into it. By now the nail would have rusted off. I've seen this happen where the trim guy shoots a 3 nail in for some reason and bam.


Absolutely certain. No chance. Nothing pointy anywhere near the pipe and the pin hole is in the bottom side of the pipe.

Regards,
Lyn Burks


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## ILPlumber

Justhelicopters said:


> Hi,
> 
> My apologies for intruding, I am not a plumber


About Justhelicopters 

What is your Plumbing related field/trade: plumber



Liar, party of one. Your helicopter is ready for permanent departure.....


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## plbgbiz

Justhelicopters said:


> ....I promise not to cause trouble or post outside this topic in this forum.


You are missing the point. 

Good bye.


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## Bayside500

Justhelicopters said:


> Hi,
> 
> My apologies for intruding, I am not a plumber, but a helicopter pilot by trade. I really felt the need to share my experience with the product. I built my own home in 2006 as an owner builder. This was not the first house that I have built, and I did not do the plumbing myself. I had a licensed plumbing contractor do all the work.
> 
> In my guest bathroom the plumbers ran a hot water line from an on demand heater through the walls to the set of Delta shower head valves. The pipe used was the Flow Guard Gold PVC pipe.
> 
> About a month ago, I noticed some buckling in a laminate floor in a bedroom adjacent that bathroom. It is a 350 sq ft guest suite with higher end laminate flooring designed to hand a lot of traffic.
> 
> My initial reaction was that the shower pan was leaking and through a series of tests and poking around (with a licensed plumbing contractor at my side) we were able to determine that there must be a hot water pipe leaking in the back wall of the shower.
> 
> Unfortunately it is a 3 sided 4'x7' shower with 10' high tiled walls.
> Fortunately, that back wall was also the exterior wall of the house :thumbsup:
> 
> Bottom line: we cut a hole in the side of the house, located the leak and exposed the damp wood. Here is the scary part.....it was not even at a joint. It was a pin hole in the pipe, no where near the joint.
> 
> See 2 pictures. You can see the area where the leak was, and then a close up of the leak.
> 
> Finally, how in the heck does a 6 year old piece of low pressure PVC just pop a pin hole in the pipe?
> 
> This little pinhole will cost me $1200 - $1500 when all said and done. If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere in my home if the same crap pipe was used everywhere else.
> 
> Is there some kind of class action suit against the manufacture of this product?


looks to me that maybe the AC line set was rubbing on the pipe and wore a hole through it ?


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## GREENPLUM

Justhelicopters said:


> Hi,
> 
> My apologies for intruding, I am not a plumber, but a helicopter pilot by trade. I really felt the need to share my experience with the product. I built my own home in 2006 as an owner builder. This was not the first house that I have built, and I did not do the plumbing myself. I had a licensed plumbing contractor do all the work.
> 
> In my guest bathroom the plumbers ran a hot water line from an on demand heater through the walls to the set of Delta shower head valves. The pipe used was the Flow Guard Gold PVC pipe.
> 
> About a month ago, I noticed some buckling in a laminate floor in a bedroom adjacent that bathroom. It is a 350 sq ft guest suite with higher end laminate flooring designed to hand a lot of traffic.
> 
> My initial reaction was that the shower pan was leaking and through a series of tests and poking around (with a licensed plumbing contractor at my side) we were able to determine that there must be a hot water pipe leaking in the back wall of the shower.
> 
> Unfortunately it is a 3 sided 4'x7' shower with 10' high tiled walls.
> Fortunately, that back wall was also the exterior wall of the house :thumbsup:
> 
> Bottom line: we cut a hole in the side of the house, located the leak and exposed the damp wood. Here is the scary part.....it was not even at a joint. It was a pin hole in the pipe, no where near the joint.
> 
> See 2 pictures. You can see the area where the leak was, and then a close up of the leak.
> 
> Finally, how in the heck does a 6 year old piece of low pressure PVC just pop a pin hole in the pipe?
> 
> This little pinhole will cost me $1200 - $1500 when all said and done. If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere in my home if the same crap pipe was used everywhere else.
> 
> Is there some kind of class action suit against the manufacture of this product?


 
this guy needs a whole house re-pipe before another leaks causes thousands in damages


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

I think all flow guard is defective:laughing:


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## Protech

Sounds like the same issue. Extrusion defect that creates a stress riser that eventually forms a crack all the way through after lots of thermal cycling. Be sure to call up the manufacturer so they can mail you a new piece of pipe to install lol.


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## Protech

Another one


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## PLUMBER_BILL

Protech said:


> Another one


*Protech*

*Video says it's marked private *


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## Protech

Fixed


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## U666A

Although you forgot it today, how do customers usually respond when you knock on the door sporting a helmet cam? :laughing:


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## Protech

U666A said:


> Although you forgot it today, how do customers usually respond when you knock on the door sporting a helmet cam? :laughing:


I usually break it out once I have actually started work and they are OK with it. I haven't had anyone object but if they did I would just shut it off.


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## Protech

I've got a nice one processing right now. It won't be ready for like 8 hourse because I accidentally shot it in 1080p so the puter is hating it. 2 massive cpvc slab leaks in the same house in 2 weeks. They ended up having us repipe it in pex.


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## U666A

Protech said:


> I usually break it out once I have actually started work and they are OK with it. I haven't had anyone object but if they did I would just shut it off.


I figured, just the thought of you knocking on a door with a ski helmet on amused me. :jester:


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## dclarke

why do so many people have issues with cpvc on here ? its used a bunch around here. i have had very little issue with it. most of the issue with it here is when it freezes.


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## RW Plumbing

The reason it's defective is it says CPVC on it. If it said PEX, there would be much less problems with it.


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## Protech

Long video:






The gist is that they had 2 slab leaks in 2 weeks.


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## dclarke

nice flood.


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## Protech

dclarke said:


> why do so many people have issues with cpvc on here ? its used a bunch around here. i have had very little issue with it. most of the issue with it here is when it freezes.


How much service do you run? Do you provide leak detection and water cleanup?

I always get a kick out of it when the new construction guys tell me how great clvc is. Yeah, of course you think it's great when you aren't the guy who has to clean up the mess constantly!


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## Master Mark

*nice video.....*



Protech said:


> Long video:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The gist is that they had 2 slab leaks in 2 weeks.


that is a nice video, good job......

My only question is how do you keep your white shirt so clean. If that were me doing that job there is no way I could have stayed out of that slop...especially in
a white shirt... I would have had to wallow in it like a dog.....

did you change shirts a couple of times for the camera????..:laughing:


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## dclarke

Protech said:


> How much service do you run? Do you provide leak detection and water cleanup?
> 
> I always get a kick out of it when the new construction guys tell me how great clvc is. Yeah, of course you think it's great when you aren't the guy who has to clean up the mess constantly!


I started with new construction. I have since switched to service. I'm not saying its great by any means. Its what I learned with so its what I knew but I stopped actually liking it the first time I saw it freeze years ago. That said its all over this area. We don't have many slab houses and the bit we do have I haven't seen cpvc run under the slab. We do not provide leak detection at the company I am with and water cleanup gets called to a cleanup company.


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## GAN

First off,, C.P.V.C. has been an approved material for many years. Is it better than copper, in some instances yes. Is it better than PEX, that is yet to be seen, most likely.
For the most part system failures occur first because of the installer (bad joints, incorrect support, not checking pipe ends before gluing, improper assembly) then with lesser cause material failure from the factory.

The only product I would put in-ground with fittings is type "K" or "L" copper with brazed joints period. Anyone who would do less is not worried about the quality of their work or how it will hold up. That said in my area we have some acidic soils that will eat copper, not in all areas but around the railroad. I am sure we for the most part all will agree that the only way to install an in-ground water system is to loop it.

While still in the field in attempt to save money for the company owner we did about 10 four family dwellings over a crawl. The only issue we had with C.P.V.C. was our fault by over tightening adapters used to convert from NPT to C.P.V.C. this was in the days prior to the manufactured glue adapters. When using a C.P.V.C. female at the sillcocks, after a week or so under stress the adapter split. When we finally got used to the amount of torque needed and switched to food grade silicone for the threads issue resolved. Or use a brass coupling on the sillcock and a male C.P.V.C. adapter.

Any one that would install a C.P.V.C. or PEX system in-ground with joints "under a slab" should have their head examined.

Your States Attorney Generals Office should be notified by you as the professional and any affected home owners. There have been several cases of Class Action Lawsuits which payed for re-pipes in the past. http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/1998...o-Replace-Vent-Pipes-on-Home-Heating-Systems/

Quest pipe>>>http://polybutylene.whocanisue.com/

Finding Recalled Products>>> http://www.cpsc.gov/cgi-bin/firm.aspx


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