# hotwater on cold side



## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

with the wh off no water comes from the hot side.
when you leave one hot side open(on an 8 inch spread lav faucet) then go to another faucet and turn the cold 
on water flows out of the hot side slowly.
i think it is a faulty delta shower valve body as i have changed out all the cartridges. any one had this prob its driving me nuts.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

mednick said:


> with the wh off no water comes from the hot side.
> when you leave one hot side open(on an 8 inch spread lav faucet) then go to another faucet and turn the cold
> on water flows out of the hot side slowly.
> i think it is a faulty delta shower valve body as i have changed out all the cartridges. any one had this prob its driving me nuts.


Are you a plumber? If not give one a call, they'll get it straightened out for ya.


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

are you a plumber? obviously not or you could have solved my problem instead of telling me to call one.
to answer your question ..yes ,texas. and yes this one is
a tough one i've even hired a cross connection specialist
that was a little baffled. psi is 70, psi stays at 70 under a static test(hot side),wh have circ pump w/ expansion tank and check valve, wh are on a tree system which provides equal pressure to each tank,all cartridges insingle control valves have been replaced,all hot and cold lines have been checked for a physical cross connection(all ok)., ok now mr plumber you tell me what im missing.


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

Jeepers. Throwing insults on your second post is not a great way to make friends here. Especially when your first post is asking for help.

Which company do you work for and what is your license number?


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

look i just was looking for some help from another professional because i was in an area which i am not an expert at.(cross connection problems)
why would i post if i wasnt a plbg when in BIG RED LETTERS it says PROFESSIOAL PLUMBERS ONLY., only to get questioned and given a bs remark like give a plbg a call. thanks for the help.
medlock inc
m37288

look it up


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Well I am not trying to get smart here, but I tried to locate a plumbing company by that name and can not come up with anything.

To the members here, remember the rules, no bashing. 
Instead of arguing let Nathan or Ron sort it out. If this person is legit, then so be it.


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## jimqbaum (Sep 10, 2008)

HI Mednick,
Sounds like a cross connection at that particular faucet in question. Turn the other faucet in that bathroom on (hot)and then after you have disconneted both hot and cold lines at the suspect faucet, turn the supply line for the hot side into a bucket and see what ya get.


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

medlock plumbing inc
9587 cr 392 princeton, tx 75407


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

we determed that it wasnt one lav by checking everyone (8) in the house by alternated faucets .
we also installed swingcheck valves on all the hot sides of the lavs to determine it wasnt a lav faucet(reccomended by that cross connection specialist.......)


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

how about a laundry sink with one of those "Y" hose's and both taps are open? This will cause said problem


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

medlock,

What type of valves do you have in the house? I'm hope after trying to help you, you will have some good info you can supply to this site, before we get into a help situation, I ask you give us a intro about you in the intro forum, this will help us to know who you are.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

If the T&S valves are single handle you might have the culprit right there, they can pass from one side to the other without showing any signs of leaking. You could also have a problem with expansion on a closed system, you have not provided enough info to give any real analysis.


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

thought of that also....cut the washer box off(it had single hoses to each inlet) also cut off all single control fixtures...laundry,kitchen. the only way possible for hot to be filtering into the cold side is for a defect of some sort in the pressure balancing portion of the cartridge or defect in the valve body itself.i think lol


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I don't think T & S makes residential faucets that I'm aware of, I'm thinking there Moen, and a bad cartridge can cause cross over of hot into the cold side even if the moen valve is in the off position.


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

delta 1400 series shower valves
delta 3555 lav faucets
delta leland series pullout kitchen

house pressure is 70 regulated by an inline prv
there is an watts expansion tank on the cold side of the wh pressurized at 70


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Well what you might try is replacing the cartridge in the shower valve, I don't get into to much delta here, not a popular brand. see if that works.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Disregard my last post


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

My vote is on the shower valve. By the way.... Welcome to the site.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Well when you figure it out, post it here. I'm at a lose of why right now, But thinking about it.


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

thx a posted a small bio about me on the intro nothing fancy since this isnt one of those online dating sites jk....


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

ron,
no kidding try waking up at 2 3 4 5 racking your brain


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Is there any H&C combo faucets outside by chance left on the mix but shut off by the hose sprayer that connects to it?


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

no sorry.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Can you install isolation valves on the lines that feed that shower valve, on both the hot and cold sides of it, this will eliminate the shower valve being the problem.


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

Hey welcome mednick. Can't add anything to what has been said but good luck!


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

we are scheduled to do that at 9 am 
i was just trying to eliminate cutting and removing tile.
this has been a lenghty process of eliminations
prv valve installed
change expansion tank
isolate lines and check for direct cross connection
change check valves on circ line
change stop on wh
replace all shower cartridges
meet cross connection employee
install check valves on hot side lavs
getting my ass chewed daily by builder
and not to mention home owner(who thinks we're idiots)
but cant wait to fix this one what a learning exp.


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

thx rifle ......also thx for all the help from everyone


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Thanks for giving us the chance to help a fellow bro.


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

Everything I think of is on your list.... let us know how it works out


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

By any chance did you check to see if the water in the toilet tank refills with warm water? That may help to isolate the problem to the shower valve if the same thing does not occur in the kitchen.


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

yes, we actually did the toilet does re-fill with warm water


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

I am taking the continuing ED class on 9-18-08. I plan on mentioning to my fellow plumbers about this site.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

mednick said:


> yes, we actually did the toilet does re-fill with warm water


Is this a new Const house, who plumbed it in?


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

mednick said:


> yes, we actually did the toilet does re-fill with warm water


Does the same problem happen in the kitchen?


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Delta showers are notorious for cross over. Same situation in a hospital not too long ago. Toilet was refilling with 90 degree water. Changed out guts in shower.... fix that problem but this sounds like a completely different situation


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

In my last place I worked, the whole upper bathroom was plumbed in wrong, hot and cold lines got crossed, but we was able to open wall and heater to flip the lines at that point, this can happen when you use clear pex, if your not watching your runs it can get mixed up, we switched to red and blue lines there after. 

Hooked up toilet and the toilet was being supplied hot water, was unknown till finish setting of fixtures.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

There is not a chili-pepper pump on the end of the hot line?

If ya don't know what it is I'll try to splain. Pump is put on the end of the hot run hooking back to the end of the cold. Aquastat controls pump operation. Temp. gets low pump runs and puts the cooled off hot water back the cold line. Temp comes up and the pump shuts off. No recirc line.

I know it's a stretch but, that's all that really coes to mind. 

Welcome by the way:thumbsup: Hope you get it fixed.


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

no chili
plumber unknown
copper
let yall 2morrow how the shower valve isolation office visit went..

doctors get to charge 4 each visit until its fixed
how come plumbers can't
now answer that one ....lol...


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

mednick said:


> no chili
> plumber unknown
> copper
> let yall 2morrow how the shower valve isolation office visit went..
> ...


Doctor's have a "practice", we work.


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## Double-A (Aug 17, 2008)

Your swing check or spring check on the recirc is not seating.

Install an isolation valve and retest.

If you truly suspect the Delta valve bodies, then remove the cartridges and install the test plugs back in the bodies and retest.

Check the installation and impeller direction of the recirc pump. Is it pushing into the heater or pulling from the heater? Correct and retest.


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## plumber Deuce (Aug 27, 2008)

Is it possible the re-circ is tied back into the cold side?


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

there is a ball valve installed before the check valve.
i have already replaced the check valve (just too make sure)
i called delta they do not make a test plug ,if you mean a solid cartridge with no ports that allow flow, for the new universal 1400 series.the pump is unplugged when the cross connection occurs from lav 2 lav


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

no i've thought that 2 and check


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

has any1 ever heard the term "sand scratch" reffering to a bad area in a valve body that allows water to cross


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## Double-A (Aug 17, 2008)

I'm not sure the series, but delta has that "universal" valve body that has a plug installed from factory that is removed when the cartridge is installed at trim out. That is the one I was thinking of... but, that causes cross over.. doesn't it? just plugs outlet.. I dunno. I'm confused.

Are you on slab or basement pier and beam... what?


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

that plug is for testing purposes only. in an occuppied application
the stem or cartridge must be installed or a definate cross connection would occur.


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

maybe thats the same as "wire-drawing"? if water can make it through somewhere the erosion causes it to get worse.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

mednick said:


> medlock plumbing inc
> 9587 cr 392 princeton, tx 75407


Sorry for coming across the way I did,


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

no prob marlin


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

What the verdict, found the source of the problem yet?


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

not yet replaced downstairs valve bodies on the shower , waiting till mon to see if one of those were the prob.
its now come down to a guessing game of elimination unfortunatly.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

If that isn't the problem try turning off the valves to the washing machine.


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## CA PLMBR (Sep 14, 2008)

Could be a posi-temp tumbler on a shower. Could be a comfort tee on an after market circulating system (under sink usually), could be a check valve stuck open on a conventional hot water circulating system.


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## plumbingpaul (Sep 18, 2008)

*cross connection problem*

how is your recirc pump hooked up? we had a problem once where one of our plumbers installed the recirc pump into the cold supply at the water heater without a check valve and it was causing the hot sidde on the nearest lav to run cold. Hope this helps.


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## pzmember (Sep 20, 2008)

*response to hot on cold side*

hi mednick, first thing is there a water softner involved. if so get the faucet to perform the symptom and throw the softner into bypass. if this solves it you have a clogged venturi in the softner. if you feel comfortable cleaning it do so if not call the culligan man. let me know, hope this helps,coleman.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

So what was the problem?


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## pzmember (Sep 20, 2008)

yeah come on already.


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## mednick (Sep 10, 2008)

Well Sorry Guys But We Never Found Out,
Since Last Post We Changed Out All The Shower Valves,put Check Valves On All Lavs(just Because We Thought A Slight Possibility Of A Cross Connection On Them),rerouted The Lines From Lavs Overhead Directly To The Cold Water Inlet On The Water Heaters. That Line Comes Directly From The Meter. Now The Homeowners Say Sometimes Its Hot And Sometimes Its Cold!!!! I Think They Are All The Times Crazy.
Ive Pretty Much Used All Of My Ideas,money, Time And Effort On This As Im Going To Do.


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

mednick said:


> Well Sorry Guys But We Never Found Out,
> Since Last Post We Changed Out All The Shower Valves,put Check Valves On All Lavs(just Because We Thought A Slight Possibility Of A Cross Connection On Them),rerouted The Lines From Lavs Overhead Directly To The Cold Water Inlet On The Water Heaters. That Line Comes Directly From The Meter. Now The Homeowners Say Sometimes Its Hot And Sometimes Its Cold!!!! I Think They Are All The Times Crazy.
> Ive Pretty Much Used All Of My Ideas,money, Time And Effort On This As Im Going To Do.


I once had a similar problem. I worked for a new construction company that looped cpvc under the slab. the ground rough crews tied lines together for an air test for the inspector. one time we had a layout of a corner vanity in the MB they wer both on the concrete block exterior wall. They tied the lines together and they were on the block wall. Somehow one of the lavs water lines got shoved back in the block.

When the 2nd rough crew got there they figured it was a lazy ground crew and ran the lines on the block around the corner from the other. To make a long story short. When we figured out what happened it was too late to tear out cabinets, granite tops etc...

We ended up repipeing the entire house. The lines were in solid pour concrete walls and the vanities and all would have been a nightmare to tear out.


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## plumber joe (Oct 17, 2008)

Check the circ. line.


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## trick1 (Sep 18, 2008)

mednick said:


> has any1 ever heard the term "sand scratch" reffering to a bad area in a valve body that allows water to cross


Yes. I once had an American Standard valve body in a higher end home that had this type of cross connection problem. There was a 60-90 second cold water lag at the lav faucets. After troubleshooting the condition for a while, we replaced the valve body and eliminated the cross connection.


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## RGB Plumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

I had a similar problem with a remodel i did a few years back. I discovered that the delta single handle shower valve was allowing hot water to flow through the cold line on a a/w. I turned off the valve at the stops and problem was solved. I then removed the cartridge and found some debri causing it not to seal shut completely. I cleaned and re lubed the cartridge and problem was gone.


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## TDB (Jun 25, 2008)

'round these parts a toilet mixing valve would be the most likely suspect... Sometimes they are hidden behind walls and you have to "locate" them. Who knows, maybe somebody put one in down there 

Any thermostatic mixing valves in the system?


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