# So you might benefit from my nightmare ...



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Over my 18 year career I've done a lot of drain work although I'd just as soon not do it at all, and now I like it even less. I started doing it thinking that if I couldn't/wouldn't do it then those same customers would not call me for anything else. So I do it and it's fine I just don't really like it especially when things go way wrong.

A couple of months ago I went on a drain call late in the afternoon. Older house that had been updated. Expected to not find an outside, in ground clean out but was very happy to find one. I was thinking I could knock it out pretty quick and be home before my dinner was cold. So with the ho standing there I remove the co plug and it of course begins to flood out onto the ground. Whenever possible I like for them to see this because it tends to make them feel better about what it costs. The co is about 1' or so from the exterior wall so I set my machine up pointed straight at the co and wall of the house. Start feeding cable and end up running 100' with a spear head and no results. I retrieve the cable, switch to a pair of 3" root cutting blades and run it again. Hit a little tough spot around 40' or so but got through it but nothing clears. I can't remember if I ran the entire 100' again or not but I retrieved the cable again, hitting the same rough spot but got past it. Found nothing on the end of the cable. Line still wasn't clear so I ran it again. I remember thinking about telling them "Sorry I can't get it cleared. No charge. Have a nice life." and oh how I wish I had! Instead I decided to run it again. What I didn't know was that the cable had been running inside the house and the third time it stuck. I couldn't move it in any direction. Never done that before. Went to ho and reported the situation and told them I'd be back in the morning (it was late and no way it was getting resolved that night). Ho reported "well I wondered, I could hear it banging around inside that wall" ! Yeah that would have been very helpful information to have before I tore your house up. So I come back the next day to figure out what happened and I locate the cable in a busted pvc washing machine tee. Cut out the tee, removed the cutter blades, retrieved the cable, repaired the pipe, packed up and left. Get a call 3 days later that water is pouring out of the ceiling. Go back cut the ceiling out, repipe a busted 3x2 wye (this had to have happened the second time I ran the cable), test it all out, call my drywall guy who comes and patches and paints everything to the tune of $900 and I'm finally rid of this horrible nightmare.

So why did this happen? Everyone knows you set your machine up in line with the pipe but facing the opposite direction of flow so when you feed the cable in through the co it automatically will go in the correct direction. This of course is only important in the event that you are dealing with a two way co or if it's ci or cp which is difficult to know if water is standing to the top of the co. Since you can't really tell you assume that it is a 2 way so you don't get in trouble. If the co is on top of a combo it doesn't really matter how you set up. Well in this case what I couldn't know is that the "plumber" who did the renovation turned the building drain 90* as soon as he left the building and then installed you guessed it, a 2 way co. I'm not aware of any way I could have known this but the result was that I set up, not in line with the pipe but perpendicular to it and sent my cable back into the house, at least 2 times. Actually I probably could have crawled under the house to see where the pipe exited then measured from that point to where the co was actually located which might possibly have given me a clue that something was up, but who does that? Then again maybe not if the co was close enough to the 90* bend. Who knows, all I know is that the whole thing sucked and makes me like drain work even less. I don't want to complain too much because I'm really happy that I'm able to get out of bed every morning and that I have some place to go and something to do. The real reason I post this is the hope that maybe some of y'all might be spared this sort of thing if you get in a situation like this and maybe something just doesn't seem quite right. Listen to that little voice in your head telling you to slow down and take another look! 

Oh yeah, and one last thing, don't EVER install an in ground, two way co in a pipe that runs parallel to the exterior wall of the house! I know who did it and thought about taking it up with him but figured it wouldn't accomplish anything besides disturbing my peace so, ... just move on.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

smellslike$tome said:


> Over my 18 year career I've done a lot of drain work although I'd just as soon not do it at all, and now I like it even less. I started doing it thinking that if I couldn't/wouldn't do it then those same customers would not call me for anything else. So I do it and it's fine I just don't really like it especially when things go way wrong.
> 
> A couple of months ago I went on a drain call late in the afternoon. Older house that had been updated. Expected to not find an outside, in ground clean out but was very happy to find one. I was thinking I could knock it out pretty quick and be home before my dinner was cold. So with the ho standing there I remove the co plug and it of course begins to flood out onto the ground. Whenever possible I like for them to see this because it tends to make them feel better about what it costs. The co is about 1' or so from the exterior wall so I set my machine up pointed straight at the co and wall of the house. Start feeding cable and end up running 100' with a spear head and no results. I retrieve the cable, switch to a pair of 3" root cutting blades and run it again. Hit a little tough spot around 40' or so but got through it but nothing clears. I can't remember if I ran the entire 100' again or not but I retrieved the cable again, hitting the same rough spot but got past it. Found nothing on the end of the cable. Line still wasn't clear so I ran it again. I remember thinking about telling them "Sorry I can't get it cleared. No charge. Have a nice life." and oh how I wish I had! Instead I decided to run it again. What I didn't know was that the cable had been running inside the house and the third time it stuck. I couldn't move it in any direction. Never done that before. Went to ho and reported the situation and told them I'd be back in the morning (it was late and no way it was getting resolved that night). Ho reported "well I wondered, I could hear it banging around inside that wall" ! Yeah that would have been very helpful information to have before I tore your house up. So I come back the next day to figure out what happened and I locate the cable in a busted pvc washing machine tee. Cut out the tee, removed the cutter blades, retrieved the cable, repaired the pipe, packed up and left. Get a call 3 days later that water is pouring out of the ceiling. Go back cut the ceiling out, repipe a busted 3x2 wye (this had to have happened the second time I ran the cable), test it all out, call my drywall guy who comes and patches and paints everything to the tune of $900 and I'm finally rid of this horrible nightmare.
> 
> ...


I always take a stick or piece of pipe to check that the cable is not running back into house when co is full of water just to be on safe side,but even then it can be hard to tell,also I always tell ho to listen to hear if cable is back into house but most times they are to dam dumb to know what you are talkin bout,I always make ho or business owner sign a waiver stating that if cable becomes stuck or seized in the line it is ho responsibility to pay to get cable out(I learned that here on the zone by the way,thankssounds like you are gonna have to eat this one sorry to say


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Thanks for sharing smells, that must have really been a nightmare especially since you lost money on that deal. Sorry to hear that.

We have all had a hiccup.

Once when cabling a main line for a man, I had to pull a W/C off the floor. The cable came up under another W/C and broke the porcelain. I explained that if the pipes had been installed properly, that would never have happened. This was years ago. Live and learn.

Another time, I was on a main line stoppage. {notice the theme here?} I asked the man did he have city sewers, he said 'yes'. Like a dummy I believed him. Wound up getting about 60' of my cable lost in his septic tank, pulled a muscle in my back from leaning awkwardly over his hedges at his outside c.o., and left without clearing the 'stoppage'. He had his tank pumped the next day. The septic man left my cable on the grass, and like a dog with his tail between his legs I had to go back and get my cable. 

Yeah, I think we've all been there.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

sparky said:


> I always take a stick or piece of pipe to check that the cable is not running back into house when co is full of water just to be on safe side,but even then it can be hard to tell,also I always tell ho to listen to hear if cable is back into house but most times they are to dam dumb to know what you are talkin bout,I always make ho or business owner sign a waiver stating that if cable becomes stuck or seized in the line it is ho responsibility to pay to get cable out(I learned that here on the zone by the way,thankssounds like you are gonna have to eat this one sorry to say


88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
In my trade area, PA we have house traps with the trap line up as a double vent trap, installed in a roding "Y" [comb & 1/8] Direction would be automatic. That is in the Allentown area -- farther south the trap lineup is at the curb. On a blockage whereas you had to go back up the line a special tool was used to direct the sewer cable backwards in the line, that tool was called a "curb spoon" which when sewerage was up in the clean and you could not see the bottom you could tell which way the cable would go.

It was a good tool want to here more just ask! Over the years Iv'e made a few. Seems like this tool might be the answer to the problem be discussed!


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Besides the curb spoon, I used to take a piece of twine, tie it onto the cutter head, let it hit bottom then pull up on the twine to get ti arc in the correct direction.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> 88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
> In my trade area, PA we have house traps with the trap line up as a double vent trap, installed in a roding "Y" [comb & 1/8] Direction would be automatic. That is in the Allentown area -- farther south the trap lineup is at the curb. On a blockage whereas you had to go back up the line a special tool was used to direct the sewer cable backwards in the line, that tool was called a "curb spoon" which when sewerage was up in the clean and you could not see the bottom you could tell which way the cable would go.
> 
> It was a good tool want to here more just ask! Over the years Iv'e made a few. Seems like this tool might be the answer to the problem be discussed!


Great tool but no, in this case it would not have helped because the co was in a line that was parallel to the house. In that scenario, even if you knew it, you would still have to know for certain which way the line was running to the sewer main. In this particular case I would have deduced that the main was in the street since there was a manhole cover in the street in front of the house next door. Had I done that I still would have wound up in the house because for some unknown reason to me, the service ran toward the back of the house instead of toward the street. I think there may have been an alley behind the house which probably had the main in it. I was doomed no matter what. Just bad luck that the cable favored the turn towards the house instead of away from it. Spoon is great but you still have to know which way you're going.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

smellslike$tome said:


> Great tool but no, in this case it would not have helped because the co was in a line that was parallel to the house. In that scenario, even if you knew it, you would still have to know for certain which way the line was running to the sewer main. In this particular case I would have deduced that the main was in the street since there was a manhole cover in the street in front of the house next door. Had I done that I still would have wound up in the house because for some unknown reason to me, the service ran toward the back of the house instead of toward the street. I think there may have been an alley behind the house which probably had the main in it. I was doomed no matter what. Just bad luck that the cable favored the turn towards the house instead of away from it. Spoon is great but you still have to know which way you're going.


Yea sometimes you run into some crazy stuff like that,sounds like it would have happened no matter what,only thing might have saved you is if you had a helper in the house to listen to hear cable raising hell in the house


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Nightmares are fun! Well, not really. But with each one we learn something new we can store in our brain box for the future... only problem is remembering it with all the glue we sniff.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

OpenSights said:


> only problem is remembering it with all the glue we sniff.



NO NO it's the "primer".................


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## WashingtonPlung (Jul 25, 2016)

What is a curb spooon at all. Can someone enlightened this yougin'


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

WashingtonPlung said:


> What is a curb spooon at all. Can someone enlightened this yougin'


Really should be a "trap spoon". Adjustable spoon height. Slide it down a exterior clean out depending on which direction you p[lace it, it will guide your sewer cables in the correct direction. They worked better on "yard traps" when trying to ge the cable to go back inside the home.


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## WashingtonPlung (Jul 25, 2016)

Wow thats interesting. Thanks for sharing.


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## loyale93 (Mar 6, 2017)

Nightmare indeed. Wow. Never would have thought of that!


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

GAN said:


> Really should be a "trap spoon". Adjustable spoon height. Slide it down a exterior clean out depending on which direction you p[lace it, it will guide your sewer cables in the correct direction. They worked better on "yard traps" when trying to ge the cable to go back inside the home.


I just take a piece of 3/4" or 1" copper and flatten one end,put a little angle on it and it works fine:yes:


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## Sewer Cleaning (Jun 2, 2017)

You gotta love it when someone does plumbing that is incorrect or just plain backwards from what it should be. I agree that you should always trust your gut on these things, especially when you are dealing with older homes that have been renovated. It pays to never assume (my parents told me what that means many years ago) and to always double check the plumbing from the start to where the clog is. This is true from any part of the start of the plumbing or whether or not your are doing sewer cleaning or septic cleaning at the residence. Always verify first and trust your gut!!


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Sewer Cleaning said:


> You gotta love it when someone does plumbing that is incorrect or just plain backwards from what it should be. I agree that you should always trust your gut on these things, especially when you are dealing with older homes that have been renovated. It pays to never assume (my parents told me what that means many years ago) and to always double check the plumbing from the start to where the clog is. This is true from any part of the start of the plumbing or whether or not your are doing sewer cleaning or septic cleaning at the residence. Always verify first and trust your gut!!


Spammer.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

*Hello! Introduction Requested* 
An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/. 

The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession) 

Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field. 

This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is. 

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## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

Great post. And thanks for the knowledge of not putting a 2 way clean out in a particular location orientation towards future clean out locatiins...


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