# Mass Approved Plastic underground water service tubing??



## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

Anyone know the best product to use? It's for a 110 degree line out to a shower tower near a pool. Commercial building, Thanks in advance for the help bros


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Uponor.


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## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> Uponor.


duh I know that but do you know what product?? Not trying to be rude but Upnor is in watertown you cant exactly call them for information right now. I was hoping somebody has used the product for underground domestic hot water and I could pick their brain about it....


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

fightnews said:


> duh I know that but do you know what product?? Not trying to be rude but Upnor is in watertown you cant exactly call them for information right now. I was hoping somebody has used the product for underground domestic hot water and I could pick their brain about it....


Hmmm...

I guess I am not aware of other products Uponor has related to what you are doing. I am talking about using Uponor (formerly Wirsbo) pipe with Uponor expansion ring fittings. This would serve nicely as a plastic underground water service tubing to the shower.

Uponor is used all over the world for underground (under slabs) domestic hot water supply so I don't know what it is you need to know in relation to its use on the shower.


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## RightyTighty (Apr 14, 2013)

we use uponor for everything from water services to distribution above and below grade.


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## plumbing ninja (Jan 15, 2012)

I'm guessing this is Deg F not celcius and the line size is less than 1". If you are using plastic, will some part of it be exposed to UV on this shower tower? 
I've seen at some hotels where the outside showers use copper and it's painted with a stainless/aluminium finish to give the impression it's a stainless line and may prevent issues with chlorine pitting and I guess?


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## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

thanks guys I want to use up nor. I just don't know if its mass or Asme approved for underground hot water. No nothing will be exposed to light. Its ok my guy will be back today and back open for business. Thanks everybody for helping. I was just trying to get some quicksome quick Info over the weekend


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

fightnews said:


> thanks guys I want to use up nor. I just don't know if its mass or Asme approved for underground hot water. No nothing will be exposed to light. Its ok my guy will be back today and back open for business. Thanks everybody for helping. I was just trying to get some quicksome quick Info over the weekend


Uponor tubing is a cross linked polyethylene pipe and as such is approved for underground water service and water distribution piping in the IPC. It meets the following standards that are required for waterservice piping...

NSF 61
ASTM F 876
ASTM F 877
CSA B 137.5

From their website...

ASTM E84 Standard Test Method for Surface Burning Characteristics of Building Materials
ASTM E119 Standard Test Methods for Fire Tests of Building Construction and Materials
ASTM E814 Standard Test Method for Fire Tests of Through-Penetration Fire Stops
ASTM F876 Standard Specification for Crosslinked Polyethylene (PEX) Tubing
ASTM F877 Standard Specification for Crosslinked Polyethylene (PEX) Plastic Hot- and Cold-Water Distribution Systems
ASTM F1281 Standard Specification for Crosslinked Polyethylene/Aluminum/Crosslinked Polyethylene (PEX-AL-PEX) Pressure Pipe
ASTM F1960 Standard Specification for Cold Expansion Fittings with PEX Reinforcing Rings for Use with Cross-linked Polyethylene (PEX) Tubing
ASTM F2023 Standard Test Method for Evaluating the Oxidative Resistance of Cross-linked Polyethylene (PEX) Tubing and Systems to Hot Chlorinated Water.
ASTM F2080 Standard Specification for Cold-Expansion Fittings with Metal Compression-Sleeves for Cross-linked Polyethylene (PEX) Pipe
ASTM F2098 Standard Specification for Stainless Steel Clamps for Securing SDR9 Cross-linked Polyethylene (PEX) Tubing to Metal Insert Fittings

It is all listed in the code and on their site.


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## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> Uponor tubing is a cross linked polyethylene pipe and as such is approved for underground water service and water distribution piping in the IPC. It meets the following standards that are required for waterservice piping...
> 
> NSF 61
> ASTM F 876
> ...


Is ipc the same as mass approved? I just ordered the stuff through my sales guy


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## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

RightyTighty said:


> we use uponor for everything from water services to distribution above and below grade.


Are you from Massachusetts. And are you working in commercial buildings???


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Plastic in commercial Massachusetts plumbing? Good luck with that. Unless something changed recently you'll have to run type k underground with brazed joints. MA doesn't care if plastic lasts longer, they want to keep it old school.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

bct p&h said:


> Plastic in commercial Massachusetts plumbing? Good luck with that. Unless something changed recently you'll have to run type k underground with brazed joints. MA doesn't care if plastic lasts longer, they want to keep it old school.


Is that for services only or does it include distribution? I can't imagine everything being plumbed with K on ground jobs in this day and age.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> Is that for services only or does it include distribution? I can't imagine everything being plumbed with K on ground jobs in this day and age.


Ma commercial is still cast and copper. Only time they let you run plastic for water is ro systems. Only time they let you run plastic for drains is soda, hair washing sinks and acid waste. They just approved using sch 80 pvc nipples on the urinal stub outs a couple years ago


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Mass codes remind me of NYC very similar. Commercial in Jersey we use cast and copper still also. Residential below two stories plastic is approved. And for underground domestic. Never thought to use anything but metal in commercial jobs, except roof drains, if there not running through a parking deck we run PVC.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Wow Mass and New York are about twenty years behind in there ways!


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

wyrickmech said:


> Wow Mass and New York are about twenty years behind in there ways!


Are we? Or do we have the most comprehensive codes in the country?

Since we've been plumbing for a hundred years longer than most other municipalities maybe we're actually ahead. 
Remember code approved means the lowest exceptable method and material not the best. We build to last a hundred years not twenty, and our soil and water don't rot cast and copper. So just like everything else made of plastic that used to be made of metal, do you really think it will last longer than it's original counterparts? I think not! (ofcourse those places where cast and copper don't last due to poor soil and water than by all means use plastic) 

In conclusion I would like to thank those municipalities who not only desire the best of materials for long lasting plumbing systems but are also protecting the trade by requiring the use of "more difficult" materials.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Just because it has been done the same way for years does not make it superior. The water services around here have evolved with time we still have lead waterlines are they superior? I think not. The cast and copper are two materials that are still in use but there are problems with both. Cast degrades over time and becomes rough so it makes itself prone to blockage. The copper is prone to ascitic soils and blasting powder residue so it has its weak points to. So with that being said just because you have been doing it the same way for a few years longer does not make it superior. To give you credit where it's do the other products have flaws to just less. Plastic services do not collect minerals and are not conductive but are harder to fix and are harder to find in the ground without damaging. The PVC is a superior product on flow rates over time but is sound conductive and above ground has problems with fire codes. Everything has its place and everything has its useful lifespan. We as pro,s need to be looking for new and better products all the time. I a few years ago would not even consider using anything but copper for water, but after time and reading a lot I see other products do have some applications. So keep a open mind and stay aware of new products, not all new products will be good though just read and listen for feed back.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> Are we? Or do we have the most comprehensive codes in the country?
> 
> Since we've been plumbing for a hundred years longer than most other municipalities maybe we're actually ahead.
> Remember code approved means the lowest exceptable method and material not the best. We build to last a hundred years not twenty, and our soil and water don't rot cast and copper. So just like everything else made of plastic that used to be made of metal, do you really think it will last longer than it's original counterparts? I think not! (ofcourse those places where cast and copper don't last due to poor soil and water than by all means use plastic)
> ...


NYC has some of the best plumbing ive ever seen period. And yes it was one of the first places in this country that had indoor plumbing. There are other reasons that cast and copper are still used in the 5 boroughs, there are rats that have no problem nawing through a plastic pipe. I could only imagine what kind of nightmares that rodents would cause in NYC water and waste infrastructure, if they began running pex & PVC. Also NYC has arguably the best potable water system in the country, that isn't run through plastic pipe. Pizzeria's all over the country have NYC tap water shipped to them to make their Dough. In an attempt to try and replicate what a NY slice tastes like. So they must be doing something right... there is still only one original Rays to me though.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Sounds like they need to spend a little more in the rodent infested areas. PVC isn't the problem it's the nasty critters chewing on everything.


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## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> Is that for services only or does it include distribution? I can't imagine everything being plumbed with K on ground jobs in this day and age.


It's not And if it is copper underground L is legal now.


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## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> Are we? Or do we have the most comprehensive codes in the country?
> 
> Since we've been plumbing for a hundred years longer than most other municipalities maybe we're actually ahead.
> Remember code approved means the lowest exceptable method and material not the best. We build to last a hundred years not twenty, and our soil and water don't rot cast and copper. So just like everything else made of plastic that used to be made of metal, do you really think it will last longer than it's original counterparts? I think not! (ofcourse those places where cast and copper don't last due to poor soil and water than by all means use plastic)
> ...


These idiots that think PVC is better don't realize using cast and copper keeps us in business. It has nothing to do with whats superior. Pvc cuts the Labor down to nothing.


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## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

By the way pipe is all set. I used high density poly rated for 110. 35 cents a foot Case closed. Thanks for everyone that helped or tried to help. I appreciate it.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

fightnews said:


> These idiots that think PVC is better don't realize using cast and copper keeps us in business. It has nothing to do with whats superior. Pvc cuts the Labor down to nothing.


Only the idiot would say this...


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Only the idiot would say this...


Say what ?
That cast and copper are more labor intense than plastic ?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

fightnews said:


> These idiots that think PVC is better don't realize using cast and copper keeps us in business. It has nothing to do with whats superior. Pvc cuts the Labor down to nothing.


It also drives more DIY'ers to the box stores.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> Sounds like they need to spend a little more in the rodent infested areas. PVC isn't the problem it's the nasty critters chewing on everything.


If you could figure out a way to rid NYC of rodents so they would never return you would never have to stick your hands into another toilet the rest of your life. because you would have wealth with that accomplishment.Good luck with that one. Cant be done. Bet that the rats survived the planes flying into the trade center buildings!


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

fightnews said:


> It's not And if it is copper underground L is legal now.


Type M is legal for underground here and you can solder it also if you want to. The code doesn't say that you can't so they cant fail it. But no one uses anything except K because they dont know you could get away with L or M they just assume K is all thats approved. We went into depth in plumbing school on this subject. The instructor gave us an assignment to find in the code book where it says K is the minimum for an underground water service. No one could find it because it wasn't in there it just says "copper pipe" is approved, also didn't say it had to be flared or water service fittings had to be used. So according to my former teacher (who is a state code enforcement official and a board member of the state league of master plumbers) its legal to run M copper and sweat joints under ground. He also told us he never saw anyone do it, and if he had he would find something to fail them for if they tried it.


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## dplumb (Jan 6, 2013)

bct p&h said:


> Ma commercial is still cast and copper. Only time they let you run plastic for water is ro systems. Only time they let you run plastic for drains is soda, hair washing sinks and acid waste. They just approved using sch 80 pvc nipples on the urinal stub outs a couple years ago


Still the MA code. No plastic at all with those exceptions. Residential under 6 stories plastic can be used. Under 10 stories PVC can be used for drainage. Cast and copper otherwise.
I have been told it is more Local 12 that wants it that way, not sure if that is true though


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

dplumb said:


> Still the MA code. No plastic at all with those exceptions. Residential under 6 stories plastic can be used. Under 10 stories PVC can be used for drainage. Cast and copper otherwise.
> I have been told it is more Local 12 that wants it that way, not sure if that is true though


:yes:

This clearly has nothing to do with the quality of the installation and everything to do with turf protection.

It is a no-win for the consumer. You can only have longer lasting water distribution piping and non-biodegradable drainage pipe if you build small structures. The big stuff is blessed with designed obsolescence. On the upside, at least they get to pay more for it. :thumbup:

Rodents? Give me a break. Like NY is the only city with rats and mice. Their tap water is not exactly Holy either. All of my relatives there boil the tap water and drink bottled water. It may be great for cooking pizza and bagels but I am not so sure I would drink it raw.


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## dplumb (Jan 6, 2013)

I know in my house I would use cast iron for drainage just because it is so much quieter. As far as plastic water lines, I would prefer copper. If I had to use plastic, I would go with Upinor, no CVPC or Watts Apex with the rings. And only if I was running it. To many hacks that don't support it like they should around my parts.


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## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> It also drives more DIY'ers to the box stores.


EXactly. if it was up to me we would be doing lead and oakum @ $500 dollars an hour!!!


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## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

theplumbinator said:


> Type M is legal for underground here and you can solder it also if you want to. The code doesn't say that you can't so they cant fail it. But no one uses anything except K because they dont know you could get away with L or M they just assume K is all thats approved. We went into depth in plumbing school on this subject. The instructor gave us an assignment to find in the code book where it says K is the minimum for an underground water service. No one could find it because it wasn't in there it just says "copper pipe" is approved, also didn't say it had to be flared or water service fittings had to be used. So according to my former teacher (who is a state code enforcement official and a board member of the state league of master plumbers) its legal to run M copper and sweat joints under ground. He also told us he never saw anyone do it, and if he had he would find something to fail them for if they tried it.


YEAH bro my state has an online code book thats easy to read. Any Inspector will tell you if you find it in the code book you can do it. They can't fail you for anything that u can prove is in the code. Although some would like to. Don't let these ass holes bully you. If you can come up with a way to do something and you can show it's legit in the code then do it. People come up with all kinds of untrue dogma in plumbing including inspectors. There is also a lot of good info on the Board websites for your area.


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## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

dplumb said:


> Still the MA code. No plastic at all with those exceptions. Residential under 6 stories plastic can be used. Under 10 stories PVC can be used for drainage. Cast and copper otherwise.
> I have been told it is more Local 12 that wants it that way, not sure if that is true though


wrong they recently accepted that green plastic crap for commercial domestic


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## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

dplumb said:


> I know in my house I would use cast iron for drainage just because it is so much quieter. As far as plastic water lines, I would prefer copper. If I had to use plastic, I would go with Upinor, no CVPC or Watts Apex with the rings. And only if I was running it. To many hacks that don't support it like they should around my parts.


Copper is superior for water. They have recently discovered that copper has natural antibacterial properties. You will soon see copper being used for hospital door knobs and things like that.


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## dplumb (Jan 6, 2013)

fightnews said:


> wrong they recently accepted that green plastic crap for commercial domestic


True. They did the hard sell on that during continuing end this past year. I heard the tools for that stuff are pretty pricey. Still wouldn't use it.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> :yes:
> 
> This clearly has nothing to do with the quality of the installation and everything to do with turf protection.
> 
> ...


Have you seen a rat first hand in NYC ? They are the size of a small dog and can chew through brick. Not your average pet store rats. First time I saw one in the subway I had almost crapped my pants. Pex and PVC wouldn't stand a chance.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

theplumbinator said:


> Have you seen a rat first hand in NYC ? They are the size of a small dog and can chew through brick. Not your average pet store rats. First time I saw one in the subway I had almost crapped my pants. Pex and PVC wouldn't stand a chance.


Yeah, I know. I have seen them in Brooklyn. Not denying their existence or size. Just that they are not any worse than anyone else's.

In the Myriad Convention Center in OKC, they are as big as any I have seen anywhere. Like you said, small dogs. Seen them in an old theater here as well. Scares the bajeebas out of you when all you can see in the dark are the eyes.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Heather does brick wood or any other building material. The cast issue is this put something that over twenty years it rots or put plastic in wich has lasted at least thirty so far. The argument about rats chewing the pipe is silly every time they chew a pipe you have more work,and animal control has something to do also. Copper does have benefits but cost and theft are counter productive so we get down to the real argument, locals don't want to let go of cast because it is more labor intensive.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

There are also fire codes, plenums, garages. All kinds of things that make it just better to run cast and copper in the city. I totally agree 
with using plastic in 2 story residential, but everything in commercial gets abused in addition to the other reasons stated. Just my opinion that in those situations metal beats plastic. I respect your opinions as well.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

...


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

You know I love that idea! I would be the first guy in line to use that method. Unfortunately taking a loaded un cased firearm out of your home in NYC makes you a criminal. ::uggh:: there are so many laws that make my life less fun.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

theplumbinator said:


> You know I love that idea! I would be the first guy in line to use that method. Unfortunately taking a loaded un cased firearm out of your home in NYC makes you a criminal. ::uggh:: there are so many laws that make my life less fun.


NO SIR! That is not a gun. That is a Rodent Control Device. I know NY makes it near impossible to exercise the right to bear arms but since it is a RCD and NOT a gun, surely it would be okay. :thumbup:


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## Adamche (Feb 10, 2012)

Asbestos pipes were popular once:thumbup:


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> NO SIR! That is not a gun. That is a Rodent Control Device. I know NY makes it near impossible to exercise the right to bear arms but since it is a RCD and NOT a gun, surely it would be okay. :thumbup:


I was just thinking about having that conversation with my lawyer from a jail cell. ::laughing::


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Ha ha! That was my first job as a cub. I was told to look out for snakes and rats I didn't know he was joking. We went under the cabin,s crawl space and one side of the foundation was natural stone with holes in it. The plumber that I was working with had given me a pistol with bird shot shells to make it more convincing. We proceeded to winterize the cabin and I spotted a black snake ( blam blam ) he was dead. At this point I was rather proud of myself for doing my job at hand. After I turned to stanly and seen he was bleeding I was a little concerned. He did not expect me to do anything and when I shot he jumped hitting his head on a bent nail cutting his little fat bald head. To my great relief that I had not shot him he told me to put that thing away. We laughed about that day for many years.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

wyrickmech said:


> Ha ha! That was my first job as a cub. I was told to look out for snakes and rats I didn't know he was joking. We went under the cabin,s crawl space and one side of the foundation was natural stone with holes in it. The plumber that I was working with had given me a pistol with bird shot shells to make it more convincing. We proceeded to winterize the cabin and I spotted a black snake ( blam blam ) he was dead. At this point I was rather proud of myself for doing my job at hand. After I turned to stanly and seen he was bleeding I was a little concerned. He did not expect me to do anything and when I shot he jumped hitting his head on a bent nail cutting his little fat bald head. To my great relief that I had not shot him he told me to put that thing away. We laughed about that day for many years.


That is an awesome story! :thumbup:


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## phishfood (Nov 18, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> ...


Darn gun nut right wing wack jobs! :thumbup:


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## fightnews (Jun 3, 2012)

dplumb said:


> True. They did the hard sell on that during continuing end this past year. I heard the tools for that stuff are pretty pricey. Still wouldn't use it.


Damn I know they did that to u to? I was like WTF why are they trying to sell us on this sh!t like that???? The continuing ED teacher sounded like a god damn sales rep.....


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