# Unlicensed contractor floods house (video evidence)



## Protech

part 1


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## user823

What the heck is a "intersticial space"?:laughing:


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## Plumbworker

what da ya tell the handy hack on the phone what did he say? :laughing: is he going to let you ripp out the tile and set the pan properly then re tile outta pocket lol


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## Master Mark

*my new word for the week*



ironranger said:


> What the heck is a "intersticial space"?:laughing:


that is a word you use to baffle the customer and make
what you are doing look more complicated and important than it really is... "intersticial space"........
it makes me feel smarter just saying it....

he could have just said "the living room ceiling" but 
you got to give them a "dog and pony show" .....



actualy while watching the video it really looked like his test plug was not
holding the water, looked like the water passed right down the drain to me...

So, I wonder who is trying to screw who here????


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## user823

Master Mark said:


> that is a word you use to baffle the customer and make
> what you are doing look more complicated and important than it really is... "intersticial space"........
> it makes me feel smarter just saying it....
> 
> he could have just said "the living room ceiling" but
> you got to give them a "dog and pony show" .....
> 
> 
> 
> actualy while watching the video it really looked like his test plug was not
> holding the water, looked like the water passed right down the drain to me...
> 
> So, I wonder who is trying to screw who here????
> 
> 
> 
> the hack probably did not even install the right drain for this work,,,



I'm going to use that word next week and blow my customers minds! They'll think I'm sort of educamated.:laughing:
Just giving ya shiot protech, it was funny though.:thumbsup:


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## user823

Where is the water leaking from exactly? Why is the water still draining down the pvc past the ball? I also don't get it protech, pleeeze explain.


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## Protech

Part 2


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## Protech

Protech’s vocabulary lesson of the day:

Interstitial = spacebetween objects.


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## Protech

I see, so you are saying that a fully inflated test ball in a brand new line is leaking water and not only leaking but leaking that fast? Simply brilliant.




Master Mark said:


> that is a word you use to baffle the customer and make
> what you are doing look more complicated and important than it really is... "intersticial space"........
> it makes me feel smarter just saying it....
> 
> he could have just said "the living room ceiling" but
> you got to give them a "dog and pony show" .....
> 
> 
> 
> actualy while watching the video it really looked like his test plug was not
> holding the water, looked like the water passed right down the drain to me...
> 
> So, I wonder who is trying to screw who here????


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## user823

Protech said:


> Protech’s vocabulary lesson of the day:
> 
> Interstitial = spacebetween objects.



Thanks protech, learned a new word today and I'm really going to use it when needed!:thumbsup:


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## Plumber Jim

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/interstitial 

Wow, that looks like a mess. Did you do the plumbing there or did you just get the service call to find that the so called contractor did all that? Would love to hear how this one turns out.


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## Protech

I moved the drain from the old tub location as well as installed the new shower valve. I came back to put the trim on the valve and when I turned on the valve to flush the shower riser and shower arm out, the drain.....didn't. When I walked down stairs to tell the HO about it I see a waterfall coming out of the light fixture. Unfortunately, by the time I got back from the truck with the video camera the water feature was almost over :laughing:.


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## Optimus Primer

master Mark said:


> that Is A Word You Use To Baffle The Customer And Make
> what You Are Doing Look More Complicated And Important Than It Really Is... "intersticial Space"........
> it Makes Me Feel Smarter Just Saying It....
> 
> he Could Have Just Said "the Living Room Ceiling" But
> you Got To Give Them A "dog And Pony Show" .....
> 
> 
> 
> *actualy While Watching The Video It Really Looked Like His Test Plug Was Not*
> *holding The Water, Looked Like The Water Passed Right Down The Drain To Me...*
> 
> *so, I Wonder Who Is Trying To Screw Who Here???*?


Wtf?????


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## user823

I'm not taking sides here but something is screwy here. The water does go down the drain, so why would there be a place for the water to leak out if it's running down the drain? If it's not leaking past the donkeydick then there is a problem with the drain fitting connection right? If it was the pan wouldn't the water be leaking out around the outside edge instead of down the drain? From what I'm seeing it has nothing to do with the shower pan.


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## Protech

I can't believe I'm getting responses like this from a site that consists mostly of master plumbers. OK, I'm gonna draw a picture for ya and brake it down for ya. Hang on.........



ironranger said:


> I'm not taking sides here but something is screwy here. The water does go down the drain, so why would there be a place for the water to leak out if it's running down the drain? If it's not leaking past the donkeydick then there is a problem with the drain fitting connection right? If it was the pan wouldn't the water be leaking out around the outside edge instead of down the drain? From what I'm seeing it has nothing to do with the shower pan.


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## user823

Protech said:


> I can't believe I'm getting responses like this from a site that consists mostly of master plumbers. OK, I'm gonna draw a picture for ya and brake it down for ya. Hang on.........


It's because I'm just stupid.:blink:


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## user823

Basic shower pan set up:
So how is the water that's flowing DOWN the drain ending up in the living room caused from the shower pan?


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## Optimus Primer

you can clearly tell that the bubble or white thing going in circles is above the test ball. You can cleary tell it is above the top of the drain. If the ball allowed water to go down the drain that fast the test ball would not stay that high in the pipe. There is no way it's going down the drain.


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## Airgap

But there is no water left above the test ball at all in the drain....:whistling2:


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## Optimus Primer

ironranger said:


> Basic shower pan set up:
> So how is the water that's flowing DOWN the drain ending up in the living room caused from the shower pan?


It's leaking between the bottom of the pan and the top part of the bottom flange. It will do that if you don't seal it with something. Here we must put silicone between the two.


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## Optimus Primer

when he is showing the home owners you can still see water above the ball but below the drain. So the drain is plugged. next time protech use food coloring for the non-believers to give it some color


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## user823




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## Optimus Primer

ironranger said:


> Basic shower pan set up:
> So how is the water that's flowing DOWN the drain ending up in the living room caused from the shower pan?


Who did this plumbing where they notched 4 inches of a 2 x 4 for one 1/2 copper line? Plus that pan doesn't look sloped. Anything that gets a pan must be sloped before the pan goes in.


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## Protech

You do realize that this is a 2 piece drain flange and that the test ball is inflated in the bottom piece with about 1" of the test ball sticking out above the highest point of the lower piece, right? The top of the test ball is above the surface of the shower pan. That was done to eliminate the glue joint between the riser and the flange as a possibility.

Are you really going to try to tell me you think a test ball is going to leak against BRAND NEW PVC????

Houseplumber is spot on in his observations.



Airgap said:


> But there is no water left above the test ball at all in the drain....:whistling2:


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## user823

Something is screwy here. I don't think I would have posted video on Youtube of this one.


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## Airgap

Protech said:


> You do realize that this is a 2 piece drain flange and that the test ball is inflated in the bottom piece with about 1" of the test ball sticking out above the highest point of the lower piece, right? The top of the test ball is above the surface of the shower pan. That was done to eliminate the glue joint between the riser and the flange as a possibility.
> 
> Are you really going to try to tell me you think a test ball is going to leak against BRAND NEW PVC????
> 
> Houseplumber is spot on in his observations.


Thank you for explaining that to me. I feel much more knowledgable now. New Pvc or not I don't know what's going on there. Just does'nt seem like it's just a leaky pan to me. What I'd like to see is what it looks like with the ceiling out , that's what I'd like to see. looks like somebody trying to pass the buck for some reason or the other, but that's not for me to say. After all I'm just looking at an average video posted on a forum for discussion....


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## TheMaster

Did I just see in the 2nd video you turn a light switch off inside the shower???? I understand what your saying about the test ball sealing the drain but airgap also saw what I saw.....no water standing on top of the test ball,which makes it look like the drain/testball connection is not good. You shot the video...you were there so I hafta take your word for it...which is fine by me...I'm not the one paying for the tile to be ripped out.


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## Optimus Primer

Airgap said:


> Thank you for explaining that to me. I feel much more knowledgable now. New Pvc or not I don't know what's going on there. Just does'nt seem like it's just a leaky pan to me. What I'd like to see is what it looks like with the ceiling out , that's what I'd like to see. looks like somebody trying to pass the buck for some reason or the other, but that's not for me to say. After all I'm just looking at an average video posted on a forum for discussion....


Watch the second video. you'll see water dripping from the light. They have towels and a bed pan on the floor. it won't drip through the ceiling if it's going down the drain.


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## Protech

There will be a glass wall between the shower and toilet when the job is done.



TheMaster said:


> Did I just see in the 2nd video you turn a light switch off inside the shower???? I understand what your saying about the test ball sealing the drain but airgap also saw what I saw.....no water standing on top of the test ball,which makes it look like the drain/testball connection is not good. You shot the video...you were there so I hafta take your word for it...which is fine by me...I'm not the one paying for the tile to be ripped out.


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## Protech

Water level never drops below the green line in the video snap shot.

Edit: hang on, images didn't come out.


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## TheMaster

Protech said:


> There will be a glass wall between the shower and toilet when the job is done.


  atleast i try to pay attention:thumbsup:


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## user823

This one by Oatey shows it very clear. There is more to this story. I have never seen a new shower pan installation leak that fast down the drain. I would also like to see the video of the ceiling when it's open. You have the top adjustable piece to the drain which could very likely be leaking. Looks more like a plumbing problem to me but hey, I'm just a stupid master plumber right? hahaha
http://www.oatey.com/apps/catalog/instance_assets/assets/How_to_Use/ShowerPanLiner.pdf


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## Ron

If the test ball is below the weep holes on the two part drain, what water that was on top of the ball backed out through the weep holes, into an improperly installed pan liner, did anyone think that could be a possibility.


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## Airgap

house plumber said:


> Watch the second video. you'll see water dripping from the light. They have towels and a bed pan on the floor. it won't drip through the ceiling if it's going down the drain.


He said in an earlier post that he ran water in the drain before the plug was put in. Thus the reason to do the test to begin with. LEAKING DOWNSTAIRS....All that water won't come through a ceiling very fast....There could very easily be a problem with the drain above the ceiling.


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## Plumber Jim

I assume that the ceiling will be opened up at some point and then you can easily see if it was the drain pipe. Keep us informed. Looks like a real pain in the you know what.


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## user823

house plumber said:


> Watch the second video. you'll see water dripping from the light. They have towels and a bed pan on the floor. it won't drip through the ceiling if it's going down the drain.



Really? It's going down the drain, that's obvious. You have a top connection of the shower drain. Was it installed correctly? I wouldn't be so fast to blame the pan, no way.:no:
Open the ceiling before I would EVER remove the tile, you have to open it anyway, no big deal. The sheetrock is ruined.


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## user823

And... if the 2" pvc trap is that full of mortar then what the hey, it's all coming out anyway right?


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## TheMaster

Ron The Plumber said:


> If the test ball is below the weep holes on the two part drain, what water that was on top of the ball backed out through the weep holes, into an improperly installed pan liner, did anyone think that could be a possibility.


 sure but some should still be left on top of the test ball unless it was even with them. I bet he didn't attach the pan to the drain AT all or cut it wrong. I found a tile guy that did exactly that...just cut around the entire drain and let it fold into the subfloor. I want to see a pic of the ceiling ripped open.


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## Master Mark

*Brilliant?*



Protech said:


> I see, so you are saying that a fully inflated test ball in a brand new line is leaking water and not only leaking but leaking that fast? Simply brilliant.


Mr Protech

I dont know wether it is brllianant or not, I only watched the first so far, 


It just appeared like the water was sinking right 
through past the ball right down the pvc drain... from what I could see


now if the guy makeing the videos was you, 


*I really do apologise for saying you are trying to screw someone*
*very sorry indeed.... did not mean to offend...*


you are probably right, 
 it just would be something I would have to tear 
into from the ceiling from bel in the living room to be %1000 sure


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## Ron

My looking at the 1st video to the point the camera was pulled away, viewing in full screen mode, I do see water still on top of the ball area, watch the lighting against the water, you can see water around the ball area.


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## Optimus Primer

ironranger said:


> Really? It's going down the drain, that's obvious. You have a top connection of the shower drain. Was it installed correctly? I wouldn't be so fast to blame the pan, no way.:no:
> Open the ceiling before I would EVER remove the tile, you have to open it anyway, no big deal. The sheetrock is ruined.


No it's not going down the drain anyway. The trap is full of grout, remember? And the top part of the drain is held by 4 bolts. Whats not to install correctly? You dont put any sealant between the top part of the drain and the pan. thats where the weep holes are.


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## Protech

For some reason I can't take a snap shot of the video. If you watch the video to 1:07 you will see that the water level does not drop below the test ball.

If you also watch to 2:17 you will see me stick my finger in the water on top of the test ball and you can see the water swish around on top of the test ball. Any more questions?


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## user823

Protech said:


> I moved the drain from the old tub location as well as installed the new shower valve. I came back to put the trim on the valve and when I turned on the valve to flush the shower riser and shower arm out, the drain.....didn't. When I walked down stairs to tell the HO about it I see a waterfall coming out of the light fixture. Unfortunately, by the time I got back from the truck with the video camera the water feature was almost over :laughing:.



You titled this thread "unlicensed contractor". Who is the unlicensed contractor? The tile guy? He's unlicensed? Who was to do the pan and the drain? What's the law there? Those are questions I would be asking myself right now.
I would be there first thing in the morning to open that ceiling before someone else does.:thumbsup:


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## user823

house plumber said:


> No it's not going down the drain anyway. The trap is full of grout, remember



It is going down the drain, it's just flying out the side of it that's all.:whistling2:


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## user823

Protech said:


> For some reason I can't take a snap shot of the video. If you watch the video to 1:07 you will see that the water level does not drop below the test ball.
> 
> If you also watch to 2:17 you will see me stick my finger in the water on top of the test ball and you can see the water swish around on top of the test ball. Any more questions?



Yes we know, it's obvious. The question is what's wrong. No questions from me but I'm sure you will have some tomorrow from other parties. Good luck!:laughing:


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## Protech

Pablo the tile guy was trying to play GC/Plumber. It is against the law here. He's in deep SH!T. I did the drain. He did the pan (against my wishes)



ironranger said:


> You titled this thread "unlicensed contractor". Who is the unlicensed contractor? The tile guy? He's unlicensed? Who was to do the pan and the drain? What's the law there? Those are questions I would be asking myself right now.
> I would be there first thing in the morning to open that ceiling before someone else does.:thumbsup:


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## Protech

Yeah, the side of it that bolts down on the pvc membrane.



ironranger said:


> It is going down the drain, it's just flying out the side of it that's all.:whistling2:


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## user823

Protech said:


> Pablo the tile guy was trying to play GC/Plumber. It is against the law here. He's in deep SH!T. I did the drain. He did the pan (against my wishes)


I knew it, it had to be Pablo's fault! LMAO!!!!!!!!:laughing:
Seriously Protech, good luck with this. It's a mess for sure.


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## user823

Protech said:


> Yeah, the side of it that bolts down on the pvc membrane.


One more thing protech, get that trap full of mortar. That's what started it, may not have leaked if it wasn't stopped up who knows. But a trap full of mortar is a dead give away of Pablo's expertise!:thumbsup:


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## TheMaster

Did you guys get permits? Was this job inspected? What happens when they call the building dept to report him and then come to find out nobody got permits? Refunds?


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## Protech

Definitely


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## TheMaster

Protech said:


> Definitely


 So if everyone got permits then why wasn't the pan inspected by the plumbing inspector?


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## Master Mark

*Light Switch In The Shower??*

I watched the second video... 

I probably would cut that ceiling just to be %100 sure, 
and I apologise again for my first statements ..


Is that ok in florida to install a light switch 
in the shower....??? just wondering.

that electrical switch would never fly here...



looks like a good time for everybody


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## Airgap

Maybe you can check the "interstitial" space where the glue is supposed to go.:laughing:


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## TheMaster

Master Mark said:


> I watched the second video...
> 
> I probably would cut that ceiling just to be %100 sure,
> and I apologise again for my first statements ..
> 
> 
> Is that ok in florida to install a light switch
> in the shower....??? just wondering....
> 
> 
> 
> looks like a good time for everybody


 he said theres a glass panel going up...if I was the electrician there would be NO power there until the glass was up. plus i would get it inspected and be sure to keep my approval for life on that one.


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## Plumber Jim

Over here you have to put a test plug in the drain like you have there and fill the pan and then have the plumbing inspector inspect and check for leaks before the tile goes on the walls. I am guessing that never happened. the pan also goes on the plumbing permit.


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## Ron

If Protech said his work is not at fault who are we to say it is, he is the one there, not us, lets leave it at that.


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## Protech

I was saying definitely to getting the pipe full of grout as evidence. No, I did not pull a permit as I didn't do the pan. I'm sure the hack didn't get a permit because I don't think he is licensed and even if he did have a GC license he still couldn't pull a permit for the pan. I did tell the HO that he should have me re-do the pan and I will need to pull a permit under my company's name to do so.

As for Pablo........well, I don't think he's going to be in a good spot.


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## Protech

Same here



Plumber Jim said:


> Over here you have to put a test plug in the drain like you have there and fill the pan and then have the plumbing inspector inspect and check for leaks before the tile goes on the walls. I am guessing that never happened. the pan also goes on the plumbing permit.


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## PlumberDave

I can see what your saying Protech. But I'd open the ceiling below before putting blame anywhere. And the food coloring would work without having to open the ceiling.


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## TheMaster

Protech said:


> I was saying definitely to getting the pipe full of grout as evidence. No, I did not pull a permit as I didn't do the pan. I'm sure the hack didn't get a permit because I don't think he is licensed and even if he did have a GC license he still couldn't pull a permit for the pan. I did tell the HO that he should have me re-do the pan and I will need to pull a permit under my company's name to do so.
> 
> As for Pablo........well, I don't think he's going to be in a good spot.


 You dont hafta pull a permit to move traps and install new shower faucets? What do you hafta pull a permit for? Only new construction?


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## Protech

That's right Ron. Everything I put in is up to code and is working great. I'm a licensed contractor with all my ducks in a row. I have nothing to fear. It's the handyhack who is in for a world of hurt.

Did I mention that the homeowner is a long time client of mine and is behind me 100% on this?



Ron The Plumber said:


> If Protech said his work is not at fault who are we to say it is, he is the one there, not us, lets leave it at that.


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## Protech

No, but we do have to have one for a pan so that an inspector can verify the pan is water tight(so somthing like this doesn't happen).



TheMaster said:


> You dont hafta pull a permit to move traps and install new shower faucets? What do you hafta pull a permit for? Only new construction?


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## user823

PlumberDave said:


> I can see what your saying Protech. But I'd open the ceiling below before putting blame anywhere. And the food coloring would work without having to open the ceiling.


Here you would need to pull a permit if you removed a tub and moved the drain to install a shower. If you alter the piping you need a permit. If no permits were pulled then things could get dicey if mrs. HO calls the building department.
The sheetrock is ruined, has to be pulled or risk a mold situation. I would be the one volunteering and I would be there bright and early with camera in hand.


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## Airgap

Protech, I wasn't trying to diss you or your work. You just seemed to get very condescending and that kind of fueled the fire. I jumped in and helped fuel it myself. You know what's going on there, we're just looking at a video. I'm sure everything will work out there, and I apologize for agging this on. Take it or leave it.. for what it's worth.


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## user823

Airgap said:


> Protech, I wasn't trying to diss you or your work. You just seemed to get very condescending and that kind of fueled the fire. I jumped in and helped fuel it myself. You know what's going on there, we're just looking at a video. I'm sure everything will work out there, and I apologize for agging this on. Take it or leave it.. for what it's worth.


Me too, what he said.:thumbsup:


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## Protech

I do plan on being there in the AM with the camera.



ironranger said:


> Here you would need to pull a permit if you removed a tub and moved the drain to install a shower. If you alter the piping you need a permit. If no permits were pulled then things could get dicey if mrs. HO calls the building department.
> The sheetrock is ruined, has to be pulled or risk a mold situation. I would be the one volunteering and I would be there bright and early with camera in hand.


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## Plumber Jim

Well, around here if the city found out then they would just fine you double the permit fee then inspect. means opening drywall or whatever to let the inspector see. But from what it looks like that will happen anyways to fix the pan problem. I agree I would tell the home owner I will put the new pan in and have it inspected. that way you are totaly covered.


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## TheMaster

Here if that home owner were to call the building inspection dept and complained that a tile guy did her shower pan and it leaks. The 1st thing out of his mouth would be "Whats your address so I can see if a permit/inspection was done" The second question would be "who was your G.C." If none was hired....owner builder....the 3rd question would be "Who did the plumbing"


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## Protech

It's water under the bridge.



Airgap said:


> Protech, I wasn't trying to diss you or your work. You just seemed to get very condescending and that kind of fueled the fire. I jumped in and helped fuel it myself. You know what's going on there, we're just looking at a video. I'm sure everything will work out there, and I apologize for agging this on. Take it or leave it.. for what it's worth.


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## user823

Protech said:


> It's water under the bridge.



Actually it's water in the ceiling and all over the floor!:laughing:





Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Just trying to bring a little humor into a bad situation.


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## Protech

HO will answer question #3 "Pablo the tile guy". HO is a long time client of mine and he won't call the building dept. Even if he did, he will hang the handy-hack out to dry.

I've done tens of thousands of dollars of work for this guy and I've saved his a$$ many times. I'm not worried at all.

Even if I did incur some fines (which I won't), I will be reimbursed by the handy-hack if he knows what's good for him.



TheMaster said:


> Here if that home owner were to call the building inspection dept and complained that a tile guy did her shower pan and it leaks. The 1st thing out of his mouth would be "Whats your address so I can see if a permit/inspection was done" The second question would be "who was your G.C." If none was hired....owner builder....the 3rd question would be "Who did the plumbing"


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## masterplumberkc

Master Mark said:


> that is a word you use to baffle the customer and make
> what you are doing look more complicated and important than it really is... "intersticial space"........
> it makes me feel smarter just saying it....
> 
> he could have just said "the living room ceiling" but
> you got to give them a "dog and pony show" .....
> 
> 
> 
> actualy while watching the video it really looked like his test plug was not
> holding the water, looked like the water passed right down the drain to me...
> 
> So, I wonder who is trying to screw who here????


If I ever hear one of my guys say 'intersticial' I'll fire his ass.


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## Protech

I'm actually pretty happy about the whole thing. I feal sorry for the HO, but he got what was coming to him. I'm going to get paid to do the pan now.



ironranger said:


> Actually it's water in the ceiling and all over the floor!:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Just trying to bring a little humor into a bad situation.


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## Ron

masterplumberkc said:


> If I ever hear one of my guys say 'intersticial' I'll fire his ass.


Hay how about giving us a intro, we would like to know more about you.

Thanks

Click below to do so.

http://www.plumbingzone.com/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=3


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

In all my years in the plumbing profession, I will not secure/install a drain assembly that's in the video. It's an all or nothing scenario for me and I'm not going to be a tile guy, so the only application I'll install is a pan-type assembly where I'll use a brass no-caulk drain. I don't trust anyone to work with something I installed that they can cause leaks by.


I've been called in behind situations like this and I slaughter profit margins of whoever made the mistake. Plus, I can convince the wife that a tile floor is hell to clean up over time, unless of course Sardia Talavasquez is the one on her hands and knees, maid being paid. :yes:


Dunbar "Sliced thin, Piled High" Plumbing


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## Tankless

I stopped reading after page 6. I guess I feel special for understanding exactly what was happening after half of the first video. I thought this was going to be a video on poor plumbing. When Ken was showing the drain in the very beginning, I noted how crappy the tile looked and thought someone did a piss poor job.

How many times have you, a licensed plumber had a glue joint leak SO BAD? To think and then seriously question a plumbers solvent joint when the tile looks as bad as it does...well, I dunno. I understood what was being shown. In my parts, the tile guy always does the pan. When I trim out I put the donkey dick in and test for 20-30 minutes. In my lifetime, I have seen 3 brandnew shower pans fail, 2 were some other guys job, and one was mine...tile guy had to replace everything.

Ken, I damn near fell out of my chair when I saw those light switches. I was just refreshing on that the other day (yes, I read code for no reason other than to not make mistakes) I have an electricians refresher course coming up soon!


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## Pipedoc

It looks to me that there is still water above the test ball. I'm with you on this one Protech. I have to trust the licensed proffessional who is actually on the jobsite until I see otherwise.

Hang tough and report back your findings when you open the ceiling tomorrow.

Oh, and while your at it, clean up the back of that truck. It looks a little messy. :laughing:


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## Protech

Got pictures of the shower pan just lying on top of the flange with NO COMPRESSION RING INSTALLED.

Protech 1, handy-hack 0


Pictures to follow soon (I'm still out in the field).


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## Protech

Busted :blink:


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## Tankless

Idiot never separated the flange.....how much did his stupidity make you? Refer them to a good tile guy...that is horse shyit


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## TheMaster

How did he screw the adjustable portion into the drain with no clamping ring??? The drains I've used have the threads for the adjustable part threaded into the clamp ring.


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## Protech

it wasn't screwed to anything.


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## masterplumberkc

Protech said:


> it wasn't screwed to anything.


My only thought about this job is, the plumber is the one who should put the chloroloy down, not the tile guy. 

I wouldn't have even glued a drain assembly onto that stub if I wasn't putting down the liner myself.


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## TheMaster

Protech said:


> it wasn't screwed to anything.


:blink::no::laughing:....that sums it up for me


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## Bayside500

so the clamping flange was on there but never bolted down ?


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## user823

Oh my.....:laughing:


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## ESPinc

I have a question?? In the second video I do not see any type of a curb between the shower and the water closet area. If there is no curb how is the pan sealed anywhere in that room????


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## TheMaster

ESPinc said:


> I have a question?? In the second video I do not see any type of a curb between the shower and the water closet area. If there is no curb how is the pan sealed anywhere in that room????


 Aslong as it slopes enough on that side it doesn't hafta be sealed and glass is going in but I realize that doesn't seal the pan. To be clear aslong as the pan is higher on the unsealed side than the rolled up side against the other 3 walls,it doesn't matter


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## smellslike$tome

Protech said:


> Busted :blink:


Compression ring! We don't need no stinking compression rings!!!

-Pablo


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## Protech

good eye, i'll respond when im home



ESPinc said:


> I have a question?? In the second video I do not see any type of a curb between the shower and the water closet area. If there is no curb how is the pan sealed anywhere in that room????


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## Master Mark

*looks a little thin to me*



Protech said:


> Busted :blink:


I guess you went out there today and made sure
of everything...

Is this fellow insured??

In the picture it looks like the concrete is pretty thin
at that drain....

how thick did pedro pour the floor??


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## Pipedoc

Are they gonna have you rip the whole liner out and do it the right way? Afterall how can the HO trust the rest of the installation? I mean if you just fixed the clamp ring and tested with water, who's to say that another problem won't rear its ugly head sometime down the road?

I hope the HO learns something out of this and has you redo the whole liner.


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## gusty60

Master Mark said:


> I guess you went out there today and made sure
> of everything...
> 
> Is this fellow insured??
> 
> In the picture it looks like the concrete is pretty thin
> at that drain....
> 
> how thick did pedro pour the floor??


 I thought it was Pablo.?:laughing:


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## user823

gusty60 said:


> I thought it was Pablo.?:laughing:


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## Protech

Tile guys are ripping out the tile and I'm going to re-install the drain and flange as well as do the pan. They will also be replacing the damaged drywall in the ceiling below as well as picking up the tab for me redoing the drain.

HO told the tile guys that they are to do as the plumber says or else. Permit is being pulled and I will have my inspections.

Some one already covered the “roll in shower" concept so I won’t go over it.


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## Pipedoc

Glad to hear they are going to pay you to do it the right way Protech. :thumbup:


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## Ron

We always use the EZ-Test type of shower drain here, do you ever use them?


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## ESPinc

Protech said:


> Some one already covered the “roll in shower" concept so I won’t go over it.


I must be missing something..

You still need some type of curb between the shower area and the rest of that room. I have done a few where the entire bathroom floor was raised 4" and finished had a 1/2" drop between shower and bath floor. 

Look forward to learning something new, take some pictures of the new pan you install without any curb..


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## Master Mark

*roll in shower*



ESPinc said:


> I must be missing something..
> 
> You still need some type of curb between the shower area and the rest of that room. I have done a few where the entire bathroom floor was raised 4" and finished had a 1/2" drop between shower and bath floor.
> 
> Look forward to learning something new, take some pictures of the new pan you install without any curb..


 
My guess is this is a wheel chair handicapped shower, and with plenty of slope to the drain and a far reaching pan liner under neath it , it will probably be ok...


although I would not like to have one on the second floor of a home.....

or I could be wrong


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## Cal

I did a few were the shower area joist were recessed 2" from the bath floor . Pan extended into room several feet on floor and walls . After pan is poured ,,, nice slope to drain .

The carpenters actually cut 2" out of the 2 x 12" and doubled them up ,, VERY SOLID !


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## Master Mark

*they always leak some day*

its a lotta extra work to install one and usually 
down the road they always leak ...

the owners think that they can sloss water around like hogs....

on the first floor if they leak slightly into the crawl space,
who cares,,,, 

but on the second floor eventually they 
will probably live to regret it


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## TheMaster

Cal said:


> I did a few were the shower area joist were recessed 2" from the bath floor . Pan extended into room several feet on floor and walls . After pan is poured ,,, nice slope to drain .
> 
> The carpenters actually cut 2" out of the 2 x 12" and doubled them up ,, VERY SOLID !


Call those carpenters and tell them that 2x8's or 2x10's are available now:laughing:
Notching a board that way makes it weak...thats why they had to double it.


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## Optimus Primer

For a handicap shower to work right. The top of the drain in the shower cant be no higher than 2 inches of finished floor outside the shower. That way when they mud and tile there will be enough slope to keep it in the shower. But, you cant have too much slope because it becomes a slip hazzard.


Edit: the slab is usually recessed at least 2 inches


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

Damn, I go out of town for 2 days, and miss all of the good stuff.
Looking at the picture of the pan exposed around the drain, I guess there is no way to put the compression ring on, and do another test, to see if that will take care of the problem? Granted, it was probably damaged after the tile and mud base was chipped from around it. 
I wanna see a picture of one of Pablo's folds in one of the corners.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

ironranger said:


> Basic shower pan set up:
> So how is the water that's flowing DOWN the drain ending up in the living room caused from the shower pan?



To call that a basic showerpan install is an OVERstatement. If an employee of mine did some BS like this, he would be fired. Seam on the right side? Wut the hell for? The lettering to the right side of the drain in that picture, clearly, to me is the center of that 6' wide pan. Also, he looks a little short on the end where the crappy copper work was done. Code here is 3" tall than the curb on the shower pan install.
Anybody notice, he crossed his copper lines, not once, but twice? Seems to me we need to discuss the definition of Parellel. Great Picture IR, sorry to pick it apart.:laughing: One more thing, Where the hell are the stud gaurds?


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## ESPinc

Here it's:

*417.5.2 Shower lining. *

Floors under shower compartments, except where prefabricated receptors have been provided, shall be lined and made water tight utilizing material complying with Sections 417.5.2.1 through 417.5.2.4. Such liners shall turn up on all sides at least 2 inches (51 mm) above the finished threshold level. Liners shall be recessed and fastened to an approved backing so as not to occupy the space required for wall covering, and shall not be nailed or perforated at any point less than 1 inch (25 mm) above the finished threshold. Liners shall be pitched one-fourth unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent slope) and shall be sloped toward the fixture drains and be securely fastened to the waste outlet at the seepage entrance, making a water-tight joint between the liner and the outlet.*

Exceptions:* 1. Floor surfaces under shower heads provided for rinsing laid directly on the ground are not required to comply with this section. 2. Shower compartments where the finished shower drain is depressed a minimum of 2 inches (51 mm) below the surrounding finished floor on the first floor level and the shower recess is poured integrally with the adjoining floor.


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## TheMaster

If thats a bench in that picture I bet its rotten by now. That bench should have been wrapped with liner also. I've torn many of those benchs out including the ones with the proper pitch toward the front. They destroyed the studs but the concrete backer board will provide sum support. The seam shouldn't be there like rockstar said too. Its a crappy job all together.


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## Optimus Primer

Best way to do a bench. concrete block.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

Houseplumber is dead on with that statement. The kohler DTV shower I am doing, I came back from lunch last week, and caught the framer framing a seat in with it jogging back in an L shape. I told him NO FREAKIN way. I told him, tear that crap out, build it out of cinder blocks after I install my pan. Now I wish I would have took a picture of the pan.


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## user823

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> To call that a basic showerpan install is an OVERstatement. If an employee of mine did some BS like this, he would be fired. Seam on the right side? Wut the hell for? The lettering to the right side of the drain in that picture, clearly, to me is the center of that 6' wide pan. Also, he looks a little short on the end where the crappy copper work was done. Code here is 3" tall than the curb on the shower pan install.
> Anybody notice, he crossed his copper lines, not once, but twice? Seems to me we need to discuss the definition of Parellel. Great Picture IR, sorry to pick it apart.:laughing: One more thing, Where the hell are the stud gaurds?



RSP sorry you missed all the fun but you're ripping on a generic picture that was taken off the internet, it's not from anyone on this forum.:laughing:


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

ironranger said:


> RSP sorry you missed all the fun but you're ripping on a generic picture that was taken off the internet, it's not from anyone on this forum.:laughing:



I know that IR. Thanks for your 2 cent.


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## user823

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> I know that IR. Thanks for your 2 cent.



Sure no problem, I could find more for you if you like?:laughing:


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## Herk

I don't know why, but the tile guys all want to do the shower floor now and they always have a reason for insisting that they do it wrong. "I have some special sealing that I'm going to coat it with," is the mantra they use.

I replaced a drain in one recently and the original shower guy did not slope the pan. He also cut and did not seal the corners. In addition, he did like Pro-Tech's drain - he stuck the strainer in with caulk.

So there was the exposed pan, flat on the floor, and the tile guy was going to glue a piece of liner to it and seal the corners. He couldn't find a match for the vertical tile and refused to pull it off to replace the pan correctly.

Last year, I argued with a woman about three times who insisted on doing her own shower pan over how it had to be done. They always know better. It's frustrating.


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## ESPinc

Protech,

How is the job coming along, looking forward to some pics!!


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## Regulator

user823 said:


> What the heck is a "intersticial space"?:laughing:


The hospital I was employed at for several years had floors between the normal first four floors that contained most of the mechanical works. These mechanical floors were officially identified as 1st Floor Interstitial, 2nd Floor Interstitial, etc.


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## ToUtahNow

You did a good job of documenting although I prefer using a 2" Jet-Swet rather than a test plug for testing pans.

Mark


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## ToUtahNow

We call benches and shelves in shower areas "Litigation Shelves".

Mark


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## ESPinc

Protech said:


> Some one already covered the “roll in shower" concept so I won’t go over it.



I would still like to see how the pan is installed in this shower with no curb. Did it pass inspection??


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## Protech

Hang on. I'll upload some video for ya.


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## Protech




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## ESPinc

I don't mean to sound like some a****** , I appreciate the video, but I do have to ask if that did pass inspection?? I believe I learn something new everyday day but I know for a fact this would never fly here...


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## Protech

What florida code is it in violation of?


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## Protech

How do you typically do your handycapped (roll in) shower pans?


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## ILPlumber

Up here they have a .75" threshold.

I woulda been tempted to pan the whole room. It's somewhat like having a toilet in the shower.


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## Protech

That pan does have a .75" threshold.
I've never panned a wholeoom in vinyl. How do you seal around the toilet flange/pipe? Silicone?


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## Optimus Primer

was that shower floor pre sloped? Where it steps up, in the corners you could cut it there down to the floor so you can lay it up and over then glue little pieces in where you made the cuts. it's easier if you have a deeper recess. It would be hard to do with 3/4 of an inch.


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## Optimus Primer

You wouldnt have to pan the whole room for a roll in shower. The way it should be is for the top of drain to be 2 inches lower than finished floor. So when it's all done it will match the elevation of the room the slope to the drain 1/4 per foot.


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## Protech

Yes, the curb was already sloped. All I did was lay the pan on top of it.



house plumber said:


> was that shower floor pre sloped? Where it steps up, in the corners you could cut it there down to the floor so you can lay it up and over then glue little pieces in where you made the cuts. it's easier if you have a deeper recess. It would be hard to do with 3/4 of an inch.


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## Bayside500

a few things i see, correct me if i am wrong, 

how is someone in a wheelchair ever going to get into that shower with that door swinging in ?

that valve does not look to be installed per ADA code, may not matter in a private home though ? 

i assume the is going to be a glass encloser of some kind to avoid using them light switches while in the shower ?

are they going to re-tile the floor in the room outside the shower ?

and i do love these kinds of videos, neat to see other peoples work


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## Protech

my replies in red



Bayside500 said:


> a few things i see, correct me if i am wrong,
> 
> how is someone in a wheelchair ever going to get into that shower with that door swinging in ? There won't be a wheel chair. This isn't for a handycapped person.
> 
> that valve does not look to be installed per ADA code, may not matter in a private home though ? Correct, not ADA. HO just didn't want a raised curb.
> 
> i assume the is going to be a glass encloser of some kind to avoid using them light switches while in the shower ? Correct again. You must be from Florida :laughing:
> 
> are they going to re-tile the floor in the room outside the shower ? No, they have matching tile to redo the shower area.
> 
> and i do love these kinds of videos, neat to see other peoples work


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## ESPinc

I hope you have something in writing that states you are not liable for any leaks that may occur in that room. Code in my area of Florida or at least in the 7 counties I have worked in would never allow that.type of installation.From the video, I do not see how there will be 3/4" from floor level to top of drain unless they are planning to glue the tile to the pan..

Again code states:

Floors under shower compartments, except where prefabricated receptors have been provided, shall be lined and made water tight utilizing material complying with Sections 417.5.2.1 through 417.5.2.4. Such liners shall turn up on all sides at least 2 inches (51 mm) above the finished threshold level. Liners shall be recessed and fastened to an approved backing so as not to occupy the space required for wall covering, and shall not be nailed or perforated at any point less than 1 inch (25 mm) above the finished threshold. Liners shall be pitched one-fourth unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent slope) and shall be sloped toward the fixture drains and be securely fastened to the waste outlet at the seepage entrance, making a water-tight joint between the liner and the outlet.*

Exceptions:* 1. Floor surfaces under shower heads provided for rinsing laid directly on the ground are not required to comply with this section. 2. Shower compartments where the finished shower drain is depressed a minimum of 2 inches (51 mm) below the surrounding finished floor on the first floor level and the shower recess is poured integrally with the adjoining floor.


Protech, I do not mean to give you a hard time. I realize the homeowner has requested this from you but I just want you to be sure you are protected from anything that may become an issue in the future.


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## Optimus Primer

*


ESPinc said:



I hope you have something in writing that states you are not liable for any leaks that may occur in that room. Code in my area of Florida or at least in the 7 counties I have worked in would never allow that.type of installation.From the video, I do not see how there will be 3/4" from floor level to top of drain unless they are planning to glue the tile to the pan..

Click to expand...

*


ESPinc said:


> Again code states:
> 
> Floors under shower compartments, except where prefabricated receptors have been provided, shall be lined and made water tight utilizing material complying with Sections 417.5.2.1 through 417.5.2.4. Such liners shall turn up on all sides at least 2 inches (51 mm) above the finished threshold level. Liners shall be recessed and fastened to an approved backing so as not to occupy the space required for wall covering, and shall not be nailed or perforated at any point less than 1 inch (25 mm) above the finished threshold. Liners shall be pitched one-fourth unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent slope) and shall be sloped toward the fixture drains and be securely fastened to the waste outlet at the seepage entrance, making a water-tight joint between the liner and the outlet.
> 
> *Exceptions:* 1. Floor surfaces under shower heads provided for rinsing laid directly on the ground are not required to comply with this section. 2. Shower compartments where the finished shower drain is depressed a minimum of 2 inches (51 mm) below the surrounding finished floor on the first floor level and the shower recess is poured integrally with the adjoining floor.
> 
> 
> Protech, I do not mean to give you a hard time. I realize the homeowner has requested this from you but I just want you to be sure you are protected from anything that may become an issue in the future.


If the shower floor is sloped before the pan like code says and which he said it was, it already has the pitch. So with 1/4 inch tile and a 1/2 inch layer of thinset there is your 3/4. Personally I think it needs more thinset. But not seeing the job other than a video I'm not putting in my 2 cents. I'm not being an ass by no means at all. Protech knows what he's doing.


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## Protech

There is about 2" from FF to the plywood. It is within code. Read it and think about it. I've seen and done this many times. This isn't anything new.


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## Protech

see pic


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

Protech said:


> YouTube - New Shower Pan



Someone shops at Fergusons.:laughing: PROFLO.


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## Protech

Finished product :thumbsup:


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## Plasticman

That is the same cheap ass tile my wife picked out for our shower. Those 2" squares. Easy to install though. Never knew I was so talented. It even drains. :laughing:


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## Protech

Just stumbled across the photos of the valve rough in.


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## antelespec

Great Thread!

Dumb question 

Are the tile guys removing addt'l wall tile? Wondering how that area is to be "patched" w/out fasteners through newly applied liner.


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## jeffreyplumber

*thanks for the warning*

I guess you didnt realize , that when you pluged the drain and kept running the water that you were flodding their house out!! It dosent seem you should be liable I mean clean up the mess but heck its been leaking in their walls awile. As soon as you saw that water drop you should have stopped!! Liabilty?? What they want to sue you? Its allways figer pointing, If something leaks water its the plumbers fault! On my new construction jobs they call us back all the time and never pay! Even when it rains and the roof leaks! " Hey we got a leak over here" I got a tell you_ was laughin watching the water drop and thinking Why isnt he pulling the plug out? Oh well better luck next time. And its all on camera lol_


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## Protech

The damage had already been done. How in the world would I be liable?

I can see the lawsuit now "plumber sued for allowing water to come in contact with drain"


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## jeffreyplumber

*unlicensced contractor floods house*

I only watched part of video the guy said it was for liabilty purposes. Did you ever find out why that pan failed?


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## Protech

read the thread


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## UALocal1Plumber

What I'm confused about is why you let someone else lay the pan. It's the plumber's work. 

Keith


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## Protech

Well, that's where I screwed up. I should have said "By law, the plumber lays the pan. I will not be involved with a job where laws are being broken."


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## TheMaster

Well i just broke the golden rule......I did a job and the contractor did the pan. He tested it full of water for 3 days. He already had it done before I started working for him on this job. This job is alittle different than most....thats about as much as I can say here on the zone.


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## Plumbworker

those pvc membrane pans are so easy a caveman can do it.. i'm going back to fabbin copper pans:yes:


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## UALocal1Plumber

Around here in new work usually we throw in a copper pan. . . just so no stray screws pop through (harder material). On replacements it's still lead. You get to the point where the fabbing of a lead pan takes about 10 minutes. On a 5 side maybe 25 minutes. 

The guy who taught me as a Very Young Man used running thread galv. nipples for his stubs, but I've moved over to Jones drains - three piece drains with a flashing collar and adjustable height strainer. 

Twice I laid a vinyl pan in new work and twice they got popped by the secondary trades. Tilers and painters are the worst because they wash their goods in and around any drain they can find. Invariably someone is careless and tears or pokes, in my experience.

Keith


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## Protech

A screw will go threw copper just the same as vinyl or lead. I see just as many copper pan failures as vinyl (maybe more). I think that copper will be more resistant to puncture from debris under the pan though. I good plumber will keep his work area clean when he's laying his pan and that won't be a problem.

My pans all get filled and signed off on before the other trades come in. If they punch holes in it or fill my drain with grout, that's there problem as they will be paying me to fix it. (like they did on that job in the video)



UALocal1Plumber said:


> Around here in new work usually we throw in a copper pan. . . just so no stray screws pop through (harder material). On replacements it's still lead. You get to the point where the fabbing of a lead pan takes about 10 minutes. On a 5 side maybe 25 minutes.
> 
> The guy who taught me as a Very Young Man used running thread galv. nipples for his stubs, but I've moved over to Jones drains - three piece drains with a flashing collar and adjustable height strainer.
> 
> Twice I laid a vinyl pan in new work and twice they got popped by the secondary trades. Tilers and painters are the worst because they wash their goods in and around any drain they can find. Invariably someone is careless and tears or pokes, in my experience.
> 
> Keith


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## jeffreyplumber

*thanks pro tech*

Im learning a lot about such a basic subject Never seen any of these pans you guys install Ive never installed a pan other than fiberglass. In So Cal "hot mop is king" You either go with fiber glass or you have it hot mopped by a licensed contractor. Ive seen those liners in the home improvement stores I have never heard of any one I know actualy installing one. I would say if you talked to any plumber in so cal They would say the same, We dont build pans here. We Hire a Hot Mop. You probly think its crazy but thats what happens here at least 99 percent of time.


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## Redwood

Yea I can't figure why hot mop is so popular in California...
It must be the Medicinal Marijuana. :laughing:

Here's what you should be doing...
http://www.johnbridge.com/articles/showers/kerdi-showers/ :thumbup:


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## Tankless

Kerdi? I saw the guys from Holmes on Homes using that stuff. Everything gets hot mopped. And if you saw the moppers.....marijuana is usually in the "mix".

It is cool to see different methods for this sort of thing. In my life, I have never installed a plastic shower flange.


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## jeffreyplumber

*shower pans*

I spent a year working in Elko Nv and I dont think they hot mop at all there. I think in smaller population areas there might not be Enough Demand to Keep a hotmopper busy. Here in So cal most of the hot mop for shower pans are specialists and many of them dont do roofs at all. On an existing home another pan would be nice (no carrying stinkey hot through someones home) Ive seen others on the internet Just not used any. How about Lead or copper are these easily built what about cost?


----------



## drtyhands

Tankless said:


> Kerdi? I saw the guys from Holmes on Homes using that stuff. Everything gets hot mopped. And if you saw the moppers.....marijuana is usually in the "mix".
> 
> It is cool to see different methods for this sort of thing. In my life, I have never installed a plastic shower flange.


About ten years ago a buddy of mine was doing tile in your county,Goleta
"Tile Trends" was the production tile outfit,tract I presume.

I had a hard time believing him when he told me that is the only way they do it up there.

Custom home pans can real articulate,kind of hard folding/sealing around seats,tubdecks,zero threshold.Although more tile guys are doing drains and Chloroloy in our Tri-County area.They like the extra money.

Cast Iron with hot mop working for over two decades.


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## drtyhands

Redwood said:


> Yea I can't figure why hot mop is so popular in California...
> It must be the Medicinal Marijuana. :laughing:


 That and/or the climate.
Colder temps may cause tar to crack easier and more often.Flexing Floor's underbelly exposed to sub freezing temperatures VS slab on grade that rarely gets below 40 degrees.


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## PlumberPete

A copper shower pan is the way to go.


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## Protech

I've ripped PLENTY of those out.



CardinalPumbing said:


> A copper shower pan is the way to go.


----------



## ESPinc

CardinalPumbing said:


> A copper shower pan is the way to go.


Copper and Florida don't get along, besides I would venture to say 60% of the so-called plumbers here would be totally lost if they were given copper or lead to build a pan, heck most of them don't even know what a caulking iron is..

I say that the onsite built fiberglass pans are the way to go.


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## Plumbworker

Protech said:


> I've ripped PLENTY of those out.


i seem em fail due to poor workmanship..seems no copper lasts in florida:laughing:


----------

