# Rough layouts.



## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Rough layouts on undergrounds here we use string and nails from form boards. 
Sharpie markers are used to layout and mark walls on string. Ive even seen tape with dimensions for plumber to measure off form.
I use one string and make an "X" on form, but have seen some shops use double strings to "make" walls.
All the Pictures have been great just wondering the methods on layout used on dirt ground roughs.
Steel deck layout i used tap screws and string as well and would measure from control lines to cut out for cans.


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## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

Great topic!

Hitting proper location is of critical importance in an underground, particularly if the structure is going to be slab on grade with mesh and/or tension cables in the concrete.

For slab on grade, I usually will run string to simulate walls. That way I can be sure I'm locating everything correctly. I'm more than a bit anal about this as I regard it as a humiliating personal failure if someone has to chip concrete at the top out phase. Some of the other plumbers I know give me a hard time saying my base layout looks like an archaeological dig with all of the grids and dimensions laid out on it. I refuse to not get it right the first time every time.

What is of even greater importance than how a guy lays out his string lines is that he is reading the prints the same way the framer is. It was common for residential new construction to be ad libbed a bit in the field without the prints being formally red lined. Whenever possible I would pull measurements from a framed house of the same model and compare them to the prints. Sometimes they would be different.

For basements with a floating slab I would generally just mark measurements on the walls and double check measurements since you have a firm, unmoving reference point.

Perhaps the most important thing is digging a good ditch. A ditch that is wide with a smooth, flat bottom dug and smoothed as close as possible to quarter bubble makes everything else much easier.


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

one thing i was taught years ago was if doing a slab on grade house, was to check the block work/form boards, you would be surprised on how many times they are off.

make sure your lines are square/perpendicular to any adjacent walls.

do not put any stacks in window/door openings 

and i use 2 strings as well, too easy to get confused on which side the wall is on when it is a 100+ degree feels like temp out there in the summer.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Bayside500 said:


> one thing i was taught years ago was if doing a slab on grade house, was to check the block work/form boards, you would be surprised on how many times they are off.
> 
> make sure your lines are square/perpendicular to any adjacent walls.
> 
> ...



I always check my overall measurements first. I don't know about you Bayside, but i get a warm feeling in my stomach when i catch a mistake that the GC did not. I also use a STEEL 100 ft tape. I find that the fiberglass ones can be anywhere from 1/4" plus off.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

I like to check the form boards first. Then I pull my measurements and string up the back side of the wall. No need to do both, just the back of the wall, then install your piping right in front of the string. I also like to write the pull measurements on the form boards and write what type of fixture. WC, Tub, etc. That way I don't have to carry the blue prints around, just look on the form boards as I work. 

Sometimes on spec homes I will pre fab the rough in on sight by spray painting the trench before digging and pulling all the measurements and subtracting the take offs. Both ways work, but I prefer to take the time to string of the walls. It's the fool proof way to do it.

One thing I can't go with out on a rough in is EMT conduit. I stake the crap out of all my stub ups.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

I like to write the plumbing measurements on the parrallel forms so I can look at a glance without having to drag my prints along the ditch with me. I also tape the page I'm using onto cardboard that I cut to fit. That way I'm not putting rocks or clods on the prints to keep them from rolling up every time I let them go. Little things like that help keep my mind on what matters and saves time in the end.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

I use a 5 beam Robo-tools laser and lots of AA batteries.

It's much quicker to square up a laser than it is to set up string lines.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Widdershins said:


> I use lots of AA batteries.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Titan Plumbing said:


>


Batteries are cheap.

I go down the exterior and lay out the interior walls and then square up and shoot the laser beam down the centerline of the interior plumbing walls and then plumb to the laser beam.

Been doing it that way for about 10 years.

I do overheads the same way during a rough-in -- Lay it out on the floor and then shoot it to the ceiling above.

Works like a charm.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> I use a 5 beam Robo-tools laser and lots of AA batteries.
> 
> It's much quicker to square up a laser than it is to set up string lines.


Agreed. Always a laser. Commercial projects can be so big and the interferrance to the string by other trades is unavoidable. 

Set up the laser to shoot a column line for a datum, pinpoint accuracy.

Sonetimes in a smaller quadrant, or if a laser is not available, ill use string, but its sometimes hard to get an accurate CL of column. 

Its funny how some of the young cats are totally helpless without a laser, and sone of the older guys can't figure out how to turn one on!

Even for laying out hangers in a mech room, i have a PLS dot thrower and a horiz/vert line laser in my stand-up.

Prank: send the young apprenti to the GF's trailer to get a refill for the dot thrower... "you dont want to have to start scraping the used ones off the ceiling and try to cram them back in..." :laughing:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

U666A said:


> Agreed. Always a laser. Commercial projects can be so big and the interferrance to the string by other trades is unavoidable.
> 
> Set up the laser to shoot a column line for a datum, pinpoint accuracy.
> 
> ...



I learned to rely on lasers during the boom when the whole idea was to get it done and move onto the next one.

I could lay out all of the anchors in a parking garage with a laser in just a fraction of the time it took my peers -- And I was far more accurate.


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## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

I always thought a lazer would be a great idea and I see how it would work in a parking garage, but is there one bright enough to see when using outdoors for laying out an underground?


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Might be a northern thing or just different construction, but down south with slab construction a laser would be pretty useless. I'd rather use a nail and string.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

greenscoutII said:


> I always thought a lazer would be a great idea and I see how it would work in a parking garage, but is there one bright enough to see when using outdoors for laying out an underground?


Most nowadays come with a piece of red, transluscent plastic with graduated markings, to mount at the area in which you want accuracy.

They also usually come CW a pair of red safety glasses, designed to assist you with seeing the line.

Tremendously valuable tool!


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## Dun' Right (Sep 27, 2010)

Before I even start popping strings. I label every stubup, floor drain, stack, wall c/o, etc. A, B, C, D, etc.... I write it right on the prints. Then in a small notebook I write out a, b, c, d etc... and I write center line measurements from north wall, and then from west wall, (or south and east, depending on which is closest). That way, I can go out spray paint all of my stubups, drains etc. on the ground. For grease lines, I use a different color paint. I "connect the dots" so to say, then after everythin is dug up, I pop lines and every measurement is already written down, in my pocket. I hate running back and forth from the prints or even to form boards. Not to mention when everything is backfilled, I don't have to restring my lines, I can check center measurements on everything. Plus it's a good way to not "miss" something. 


Worked great for me.


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## pigskin plumber (Oct 2, 2011)

*Layout of hell*

My first year as an apprentice, I worked for a guy, and it was just the two of us. This was my first commercial job, which was just a fast food joint, a Harvey's. 

So the slab is in place and we have the site foreman who is going to have his men remove the slab and trench for us. Sure enough they remove the slab, about 1000 sq. feet. Afterwards my boss starts painting out the lines for their guys to trench, well my boss did not pull out a tape, line, laser or anything, but read from the plans and eyeball everything, and in some place reconfigured the drawings. Well they trench about 200 ft, and in some places 3 feet deep. 

Site foreman comes back says this isn't accurate, so my boss says, "I'm going to do it this way." Foreman says, "no you're not." So my boss re-chalks the lines. My boss says, "there." Foreman says, "we only trench once." So I ended up trench myself, just to realize my boss was off again. I don't think there's been an apprentice, who has dropped so many f-bombs while digging. 

Anyways it was hell, and that was just he start. I was in school right after that job, and hired by another company. 

He did teach me a lot in service, just not so much in commercial.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

When I was new to the trade, I was working with another apprentice and (2) journeymen doing a ground rough for an apartment bldg which was slab-on-grade. The bldg was to be 160' long. The other apprentice's job at 7:00AM was to put the string line from one form board to the other. It was still dark in the mornings because it was winter. In my drawing, the solid line is where he was supposed to put the string line. But there were several different nails in the form boards.....so 'Ray' loops the string line on the wrong nails (shown by the dashed line on my drawing).....:laughing: After the journeyman (job foreman) discovered the mistake, we had already installed the whole underground. The trunk line where it exited the bldg was 6" drain line. We had to dig and shift alot of stuff over.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> When I was new to the trade, I was working with another apprentice and (2) journeymen doing a ground rough for an apartment bldg which was slab-on-grade. The bldg was to be 160' long. The other apprentice's job at 7:00AM was to put the string line from one form board to the other. It was still dark in the mornings because it was winter. In my drawing, the solid line is where he was supposed to put the string line. But there were several different nails in the form boards.....so 'Ray' loops the string line on the wrong nails (shown by the dashed line on my drawing).....:laughing: After the journeyman (job foreman) discovered the mistake, we had already installed the whole underground. The trunk line where it exited the bldg was 6" drain line. We had to dig and shift alot of stuff over.


A variation on the "measure twice cut once" meme:

I trust my guys and myself, but we still double check each other.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I usually staple the A page to a scrap of OSB then cover that with plexiglass. You can then write all you want on the glass with each days measurements. Clean it off with clear primer and a clean rag......
Stays dry also when working in the rain. 

Undergrounds are my favorite thing to do. Its easy to keep everyone moving.....

Nobody cares that this was sent from my droid using. Plumbing Zone


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

U can also get an old binder that has that transperent plastic in front cut off that wing. Then with plas and trace paper trace out prints wall measument etc. And put inside clear plastic its light weight rain proof and easy enough to use that's what I did on roughs


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