# Tankless Water Heaters



## johntheplumber

Noticed some concerns on the quality of tankless water heaters and wanted a place to discuss it, dispel some of the myths and talk about proper installation and the reason people experience problems with tankless.

I have been installing tankless water heaters for the last 6-7 years in North Texas. I install anywhere from 30-50 a year depending on the year and incentives available that year. 

I also have been trained by the factory to install them properly. I'm considered a platinum level 3 installer. This means that I have passed all 3 courses they offer on installation and repair. I also get called out all over North TX to diagnose and repair improperly installed units. 

I have customers tell me every year, when I service the units, that they are saving 20-30% on their gas bill. If installed properly and serviced every 12-18 months a tankless will last 25-30 years. 

Of course it depends on which manufacturer you go with. There are only two top players in the "traditional" tankless market. Noritz and Rinnai. I chose Noritz. Both are great heaters but, there where certain reasons why I chose Noritz. First of all, they are the oldest manufacturer of tankless in the world (they've been around since the 50's) and all they do is tankless water heaters. Second, the quality of the parts they use is the finest. Third, the time for the heater to activate is quicker on the Noritz. Fourth, the Noritz units do not spike the temp as high as the Rinnai's do when turning on-off-on the water. 

When looking to install a tankless there are more factors than just the cost of the parts. You have to check the gas. This is a huge deal. You are taking a gas system that is laid out for a 35k BTU tank heater and installing a 200k BTU fire breathing dragon. If you do not install correctly then problems will start popping up. 

One of the most common problems I see is that the unit shuts off and flashes an error code. Most of the time it is one of two things. It's either the system has not been serviced in 3-4 years or that the gas system is not producing enough gas.

This is especially bad during the winter when you furnace is gobbling up all available BTU's. 

It is imperative to do a gas diagram, or at least know the total btu load and developed length of system when giving the estimate. If you do not and just guess there will be problems.

Yes, tankless water heaters are expensive. But if installed correctly they will save money and be a great product for 25-30 years or longer.


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## OldSchool

Only in certain instances will there be a benefit to have a tankless vs tank..

I can see if you need a continuous supply of hot water ... where you got a large family and they all shower one after the other 

Or 

If the home owner is never home and gone for several days out of the week or showers once a week

So more or less they are great for continuous or hardly any use at all ...

One other benefit is floor space


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## Gettinit

I don't think there are any "myths" that we don't know about. It is the lack of knowledge the HO possesses. What you mentioned is great for a newbie and I see value in your post. I am glad you took the time to write it. It isn't the installation that I have a problem with, and you are 100% correct with what you said. Its other things that I have issues with.

Access to parts.
Lies or stretching of the truth by manufacturers.
The above leads to problems like lack of servicing and much more.


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## OldSchool

When you really look at the facts ......

There plenty enough reasons not to install a tankless 

Cost vs actual saving 
Water quality
Pressure drop 
Limited GPM
On going maintenance


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## Gettinit

OldSchool said:


> When you really look at the facts ......
> 
> There plenty enough reasons not to install a tankless
> 
> Cost vs actual saving
> Water quality
> Pressure drop
> Limited GPM
> On going maintenance



Lies, stretching of truths and omissions by the manufacturers. I'm with you.


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## johntheplumber

Honestly the sad thing is my number one "perp" is a licensed plumber. I deal with it 20 times a year. It's not just the "newbies" . Where we live we have access to repair parts if needed. We also don't have to deal with horribly cold water temps. It's the perfect place for tankless. It might not be the best solution for everyone but for those that want them and can afford them it's a great tool.


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## rjbphd

I have not yet seen any tankless that are more than 25/30 years old... where are they??


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## bizzybeeplumbin

I have been installing tankless for close to 12 years, before Noritz and rinnai were even around. Bosch and Takagi were all the rage! My first was a Bosch with a 6" dual wall vent that had to be 5' in length and 1/2" waters! crap by todays standards.

My wife is from Europe, she grew up with tankless and I remember when our first water heater went out she asked what it was, she had never seen a tank water heater before. ask Asian people what a tank water heater is in japan? first of all they don't even have the space for such a thing.

Tankless has its place and is not for everyone.... yet.... until 2014 when all the new EPA standards come out for the tank heaters. The govt wants 80% efficient residential tank water heaters. the govt is pushing tankless on everyone also.

whats great about tankless is every part in there is replaceable and if the unit is maintained every 1.5 years there is never a reason to rip the whole thing off the wall. 

Noritz is going to start making Electrolux tankless and Rinnai is now in bed with Blows making Jacuzzi brand tankless, which both Noritz and rinnai have pissed me off by selling out, especially to blows. I am an avid installer of both and an asp for both, for many years. I know its a sign of things to come but still !

Bosch is no longer sold in home depot and is sold just to professionals now, but they have work to do on their quality, which, they are starting to turn out a better product. Eternal, not 100% sold on their numbers yet and Navian, the idea is good in theory but its over engineered and hit and miss.

Electric tankless suck.


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## user2090

Standard tanks around here are not up to snuff. The fact that people are conditioned to deal with limited hot water used to surprise me, but after enough years it no longer does. Its one of those inconveniences that they get used to. 

One question I love to ask my customer when I get called out to a water heater is "Does it provide enough hot water?" They usually say yes, then as they think about it, the admissions of not having enough comes out. We do discuss the options available and 99% opt for replacement of the existing because they are not mentally prepared to invest the necessary funds to improve that area of comfort. 

The biggest misconception about Tankless that was started and continues to be a thorn in the side of anyone selling them is that they are money savers. 

Money savings should never be the primary reason to install a tank less, and it should not be the primary tactic for selling.


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## plbgbiz

I challenge anyone to provide real numbers that show a tankless WH in a single family home to be anything other than a money pit compared to the cost of installing, operating, and maintaining a tank type WH.

Other than direct installation and maintenance costs, the biggest difference is reliability.

If you neglect the maintenance on a tankless WH you will have error codes and a complete shutdown in as little as two years or sooner depending on the water conditions. And if there is a power outage, you have no hot water. Conversely, a tank type WH is the most reliable and ignorable appliance ever invented.

Tankless WH's teeter on a tight rope without a net totally dependent on perfect water conditions, constant diaper changes, and consumers willing to accept negatives that outweigh positives.

Adding to their lack of credibility is the government rebate scam. If it were a valuable and viable product, plumbers would not need stolen tax money to subsidize the sales. The fact that stolen taxes are the barometer for tankless sales should throw up a red flag to anyone that is paying attention. Tax rebates create a horrible perversion of our free market system.

No stolen taxes? No residential solar industry. 
No stolen taxes? No wind power. 
No stolen taxes? No ethanol. 
No stolen taxes? No smart cars.
No stolen taxes? No mad rush to buy golf carts a couple of years ago.

If the manufacturers did not use false advertising and if there were no stolen taxes, there would be no residential tankless WH industry. They have lied and misrepresented their product to the point that even plumbers have started to buy into it. Pitiful.

Tankless WH...
cost more,
cost more to install,
cost more to maintain,
increase the need for expensive water conditioning equipment,
and fail quicker.


**Not that I have a strong opinion on the matter** :laughing:


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## justme

plbgbiz said:


> I challenge anyone to provide real numbers that show a tankless WH in a single family home to be anything other than a money pit compared to the cost of installing, operating, and maintaining a tank type WH.
> 
> Other than direct installation and maintenance costs, the biggest difference is reliability.
> 
> If you neglect the maintenance on a tankless WH you will have error codes and a complete shutdown in as little as two years or sooner depending on the water conditions. And if there is a power outage, you have no hot water. Conversely, a tank type WH is the most reliable and ignorable appliance ever invented.
> 
> Tankless WH's teeter on a tight rope without a net totally dependent on perfect water conditions, constant diaper changes, and consumers willing to accept negatives that outweigh positives.
> 
> Adding to their lack of credibility is the government rebate scam. If it were a valuable and viable product, plumbers would not need stolen tax money to subsidize the sales. The fact that stolen taxes are the barometer for tankless sales should throw up a red flag to anyone that is paying attention. Tax rebates create a horrible perversion of our free market system.
> 
> No stolen taxes? No residential solar industry.
> No stolen taxes? No wind power.
> No stolen taxes? No ethanol.
> No stolen taxes? No smart cars.
> No stolen taxes? No mad rush to buy golf carts a couple of years ago.
> 
> And if the manufacturers did not use false advertising, if there were no stolen taxes, there would be no residential tankless WH industry. They have lied and misrepresented their product to the point that even plumbers have started to buy into it. Pitiful.
> 
> Tankless WH...
> cost more,
> cost more to install,
> cost more to maintain,
> increase the need for expensive water conditioning equipment,
> and fail quicker.
> 
> **Not that I have a strong opinion on the matter** :laughing:


Very well said.


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## Relic

Great thread! I'm a large commercial plumber and I have to admit to never having installed a tankless in my over 20 years of plumbing. I read all the hype the manufactures sold and just not honestly come to the conclusion that tankless was superior to tanked or even an equal. Thanks Biz for articulating this in a simple but thorough way, I agree with you on everything you state.


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## Gettinit

Relic said:


> Great thread! I'm a large commercial plumber and I have to admit to never having installed a tankless in my over 20 years of plumbing. I read all the hype the manufactures sold and just not honestly come to the conclusion that tankless was superior to tanked or even an equal. Thanks Biz for articulating this in a simple but thorough way, I agree with you on everything you state.



schmutz :laughing:


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## plbgbiz

And in the interest of full disclosure...

We do install tankless WH's and have since the early 90's. We have installed Rinnai, Paloma, Noritz, Takagi, and Navien.

I willing take the job and the money as long as the customer is fully aware of what they are and are not getting.


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## johntheplumber

plbgbiz said:


> And in the interest of full disclosure...
> 
> We do install tankless WH's and have since the early 90's. We have installed Rinnai, Paloma, Noritz, Takagi, and Navien.
> 
> I willing take the job and the money as long as the customer is fully aware of what they are and are not getting.


Paloma and takagi are not good units. Paloma makes the Bosch. 

I do not recommend these brands to our customers. If they REALLY want it then we will install it, but they know what it's going to take, financially, to get it to perfect.

I will not install improperly. There are plenty of companies who will install a tankless inexpensively, but they do not replace the vent or gas and do not install isolation valves. Well, if I didn't have to worry about correctly installing a product, I could charge less too. Needless to say its sometimes hard to get a H/O to realize that cheaper is not better.


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## plbgbiz

johntheplumber said:


> Paloma and takagi are not good units. Paloma makes the Bosch.
> 
> I do not recommend these brands to our customers. If they REALLY want it then we will install it, but they know what it's going to take, financially, to get it to perfect.
> 
> I will not install improperly. There are plenty of companies who will install a tankless inexpensively, but they do not replace the vent or gas and do not install isolation valves. Well, if I didn't have to worry about correctly installing a product, I could charge less too. Needless to say its sometimes hard to get a H/O to realize that cheaper is not better.


The only Palomas I installed were a battery of 7 units for a wash-down system at a chicken processing facility in 1995. They were 300K btu units and we used all stainless steel piping w/3000psi fittings. It worked really well. I know nothing of their residential products.


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## johntheplumber

Just to clarify, I have never recommended an electric tankless water heater. I do not believe that they are worth the money. I have installed hundreds of gas type in residential applications and a handful for restaurants.

I also have been installing the Eternal hybrid. The thing that a lot if people are liking the idea of being able to install a Grundfos Comfort System. 

Endless and instant. Also, the eternal does not need to be flushed.


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## Gettinit

johntheplumber said:


> Just to clarify, I have never recommended an electric tankless water heater. I do not believe that they are worth the money. I have installed hundreds of gas type in residential applications and a handful for restaurants.
> 
> I also have been installing the Eternal hybrid. The thing that a lot if people are liking the idea of being able to install a Grundfos Comfort System.
> 
> Endless and instant. Also, the eternal does not need to be flushed.


Who told you that? What makes the rules of science not apply to their units? You add that many BTU's directly to the heat exchanger and all of the calcium and crap will drop out of solution, period.


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## johntheplumber

Gettinit said:


> Who told you that? What makes the rules of science not apply to their units? You add that many BTU's directly to the heat exchanger and all of the calcium and crap will drop out of solution, period.


I am going off of what the manufacturer said. It's stainless inside and the buildup doesn't build up. I have the added benefit of having the manufacturer only 10 miles away from my supply house so I get to talk to the rep a lot. I've taken them apart and looked at all the components.

They are only 3-4 or so years old so we will have to wait and see about the longevity of the Eternal but as far as I can tell its a good machine.


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## Gettinit

johntheplumber said:


> I am going off of what the manufacturer said. It's stainless inside and the buildup doesn't build up. I have the added benefit of having the manufacturer only 10 miles away from my supply house so I get to talk to the rep a lot. I've taken them apart and looked at all the components.
> 
> They are only 3-4 or so years old so we will have to wait and see about the longevity of the Eternal but as far as I can tell its a good machine.


I have seen buildup in stainless heat exchangers. Word of caution, DO NOT use any of the flushing solutions used for copper exchangers.


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## user2090

To those who oppose tankless or even those who do. What options do you present to a customer?


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## Gettinit

Indie said:


> To those who oppose tankless or even those who do. What options do you present to a customer?


All options are on the table. I cannot make the decisions for the customer but they will know the pro's and con's of each option. After thy choose the type we go into their options of the particular type of heater. As long as you stay impartial and present both sides of each type you cannot go wrong, IMO.


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## revenge

I think when you have to Change the whole plumbing system to put any thing in you are not saving money we installed a new hybred water heater the unity it self was over a grand then another grand to install then it took a **** two years later we charged a couple hundred in labor but hey it only gobbles half of what a regular one would use inn a year only thing these new heaters are good for are taking money from cpl and giving it to plumbers hey thank you heater manufactures


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## plbgbiz

Indie said:


> To those who oppose tankless or even those who do. What options do you present to a customer?


Only the ones that I believe are in THEIR best interests. It has been my experience that most residential tankless installs benefit everyone but the customer.


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## revenge

If they have one in replace it have a tank type leave it the way it is really i have seen regular whs last thirty years the one in my moms house was out in before u was born and no flushing or repairs they recall


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## plbgbiz

johntheplumber said:


> I am going off of what the manufacturer said. It's stainless inside and the buildup doesn't build up....


They just do not have any credibility with me. Too many lies about saving money and flawless operation.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

Indie said:


> To those who oppose tankless or even those who do. What options do you present to a customer?




I assess the job and find out what the customer is looking for. I'll give options based on what the best options are. Not every house is set up for a tankless. Most people don't want to cut 20' of a ceiling in order to have gas and venting ran. 

It's important not to give more than 2 or max 3 options. I will sell them what I feel will suite their needs and their home the best. Then after the presentation if price is an issue then I will present a lesser expensive option. Only one at a time in descending order until we find one that they are happy with. Also have all manufacturer literature, make sure it's nice glossy and presentable. Have an answer to every question. And always make your presentation then give price LAST! Never ever ever give pricing before any type of presentation. 

I've found the best success with this method. If you just off the bat give all your options and leave it up to the customer to decide then they will be overwhelmed and all youll leave with is a "we'll think about it". The goal is to walk out with a commitment, a deposit and an install date. I'm the professional they hired to figure this out for them so I'm in control of what happens. 

And when you can't close the deal on the spot then it's important to make a follow up call to the customer the next day to see of they have any questions or concerns.


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## revenge

I have changed heater s from the 80s now tank less every year should be descaled right that s easy over a hundred dollars every time it breaks down you have to order parts so will cissy double then a regular element and thermostat repair right i mean honestly you can pick up the parts to fix a regular wh it any box store inho tank less are money outs for hos i wouldn't recommend one


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## SewerRat

revenge said:


> I have changed heater s from the 80s now tank less every year should be descaled right that s easy over a hundred dollars every time it breaks down you have to order parts so will cissy double then a regular element and thermostat repair right i mean honestly you can pick up the parts to fix a regular wh it any box store inho tank less are money outs for hos i wouldn't recommend one


There ya go again, revenge, reminding us of Tex Mex! :laughing:

On another note, in the bigger picture do either type of heater contribute to water conservation?


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## revenge

SewerRat said:


> There ya go again, revenge, reminding us of Tex Mex! :laughing:
> 
> On another note, in the bigger picture do either type of heater contribute to water conservation?


 what rat are you again I'm confused


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

SewerRat said:


> There ya go again, revenge, reminding us of Tex Mex! :laughing:
> 
> *On another note, in the bigger picture do either type of heater contribute to water conservation?*



No... Only with a recirc pump the customer would not have to let the water run till it gets hot.


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## johntheplumber

SewerRat said:


> There ya go again, revenge, reminding us of Tex Mex! :laughing:
> 
> On another note, in the bigger picture do either type of heater contribute to water conservation?


That would be a big negativo. Unless you add a circ pump to cut down on waiting for the hot water to get there. I know that's a separate solution.

But no water heater helps cut down in water usage. The more hot water a water heater produces the more water the customer will use. 

So the only way to install something that is "water saving" would be to install a 30, 20, 12, or for the real conservationist a 6 gallon tank heater. When you run out of hot water in 2-3 minutes you know it's time to be done with your shower. 

So the contributing to water conservation argument is moot.


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## SewerRat

Just curious as somebody mentioned that people on tank WH's learn to live with limited hot water. Not sayin', just curious.


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## johntheplumber

revenge said:


> If they have one in replace it have a tank type leave it the way it is really i have seen regular whs last thirty years the one in my moms house was out in before u was born and no flushing or repairs they recall


Also, for the love of all that's Holy, please use proper punctuation.


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## aprilmayb

johntheplumber said:


> When you run out of hot water in 2-3 minutes you know it's time to be done with your shower./QUOTE]
> 
> You would just love this wouldn't you? I can see the gears spinning in your head, 5 women in the house x 3 minute max showers = huge savings! Don't get any ideas.


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## johntheplumber

It's already in the works!


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## Relic

johntheplumber said:


> Also, for the love of all that's Holy, please use proper punctuation.


Many members post using their mobile phones. This is why nobody really cares about proper writing etc. Just food for thought.


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## johntheplumber

Relic said:


> Many members post using their mobile phones. This is why nobody really cares about proper writing etc. Just food for thought.


I know. It's really ok. In just bustin' his chops.


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## SewerRat

Relic said:


> Many members post using their mobile phones. This is why nobody really cares about proper writing etc. Just food for thought.


It needs to be somewhat readable at a minimum.

Sent using capitalization, punctuation, and proper grammar using my thumbs to type on a DROID Razr MAXX via PlumbingZone.com.


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## heeterman1

*the truth*



johntheplumber said:


> Noticed some concerns on the quality of tankless water heaters and wanted a place to discuss it, dispel some of the myths and talk about proper installation and the reason people experience problems with tankless.
> 
> I have been installing tankless water heaters for the last 6-7 years in North Texas. I install anywhere from 30-50 a year depending on the year and incentives available that year.
> 
> I also have been trained by the factory to install them properly. I'm considered a platinum level 3 installer. This means that I have passed all 3 courses they offer on installation and repair. I also get called out all over North TX to diagnose and repair improperly installed units.
> 
> I have customers tell me every year, when I service the units, that they are saving 20-30% on their gas bill. If installed properly and serviced every 12-18 months a tankless will last 25-30 years.
> 
> Of course it depends on which manufacturer you go with. There are only two top players in the "traditional" tankless market. Noritz and Rinnai. I chose Noritz. Both are great heaters but, there where certain reasons why I chose Noritz. First of all, they are the oldest manufacturer of tankless in the world (they've been around since the 50's) and all they do is tankless water heaters. Second, the quality of the parts they use is the finest. Third, the time for the heater to activate is quicker on the Noritz. Fourth, the Noritz units do not spike the temp as high as the Rinnai's do when turning on-off-on the water.
> 
> When looking to install a tankless there are more factors than just the cost of the parts. You have to check the gas. This is a huge deal. You are taking a gas system that is laid out for a 35k BTU tank heater and installing a 200k BTU fire breathing dragon. If you do not install correctly then problems will start popping up.
> 
> One of the most common problems I see is that the unit shuts off and flashes an error code. Most of the time it is one of two things. It's either the system has not been serviced in 3-4 years or that the gas system is not producing enough gas.
> 
> This is especially bad during the winter when you furnace is gobbling up all available BTU's.
> 
> It is imperative to do a gas diagram, or at least know the total btu load and developed length of system when giving the estimate. If you do not and just guess there will be problems.
> 
> Yes, tankless water heaters are expensive. But if installed correctly they will save money and be a great product for 25-30 years or longer.


yes someone that knows the truth about tankless so many are installed wrong


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## plbgbiz

johntheplumber said:


> Also, for the love of all that's Holy, please use proper punctuation.


It is part of Revenge's charm that you will grow to appreciate.

His posts from a regular keyboard suck. :jester:


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## heeterman1

you do know you are supposed to flush and check anode rods.gas fired heaters build scale.on a tank heater you are only using 70 percent of you hot water.tankless burners dont come on until needed.this plug and play and never service is what hurts customers we should be servicing heaters not just making uninformed comments


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## johntheplumber

Hey look, I didn't sell a tankless today. It was not in their best interest. So instead we installed a Bradford White.


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## Gettinit

heeterman1 said:


> you do know you are supposed to flush and check anode rods.gas fired heaters build scale.on a tank heater you are only using 70 percent of you hot water.tankless burners dont come on until needed.this plug and play and never service is what hurts customers we should be servicing heaters not just making uninformed comments


Look here buddy. I do not make uninformed comments. The fact that people do not want to service their equipment is not a reflection on me or my knowledge.


Oh, how much do you think you are getting % wise from a tankless running full bore. Let's face it most do run wide open because they are usually too small.


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## heeterman1

they all need flushing.preventive maintenance.choosing the right heater for the application.weather tank, tankless,copper finn size your piping water and gas pump size and so on


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## rjbphd

johntheplumber said:


> Hey look, I didn't sell a tankless today. It was not in their best interest. So instead we installed a Bradford White.


 Since when they start making ventless heater??


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## GREENPLUM

johntheplumber said:


> Hey look, I didn't sell a tankless today. It was not in their best interest. So instead we installed a Bradford White.
> 
> View attachment 24990


you forgot the vent :laughing:

whats with the union on the t+P , seems like a waste


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## Gettinit

heeterman1 said:


> they all need flushing.preventive maintenance.choosing the right heater for the application.weather tank, tankless,copper finn size your piping water and gas pump size and so on


So what's you point. Mine is tankless manufacturers hide the truths and you have to service them or they will be needing replacement within 5 years in many installations. The avg tank can handle an 10-12 years and still cost a fraction to replace. I think you missed most points.


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## heeterman1

*general*



Gettinit said:


> Look here buddy. I do not make uninformed comments. The fact that people do not want to service their equipment is not a reflection on me or my knowledge.


no need to get your draws in a knot.fact is if you explain the benefits of PMS it saves money by not having to replace a heater too often.its just conversation if you cant take straight talk.well im not the warm a fuzzy type


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## johntheplumber

rjbphd said:


> Since when they start making ventless heater??


I was wondering why this electric heater had something on the top of it.


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## johntheplumber

GREENPLUM said:


> you forgot the vent :laughing:
> 
> whats with the union on the t+P , seems like a waste


City of Dallas, Texas requires that all connections have a union so that the heater can be completely disconnected from the system using only a wrench/channel locks. I just do what I'm told.


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## heeterman1

i agree why the union,should be on the hot and cold,i hardly ever used them when i did residential it just adds to your cost butt if its code


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## GREENPLUM

johntheplumber said:


> City of Dallas, Texas requires that all connections have a union so that the heater can be completely disconnected from the system using only a wrench/channel locks. I just do what I'm told.


good requirement for everybody :thumbsup: I like it


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## Gettinit

heeterman1 said:


> no need to get your draws in a knot.fact is if you explain the benefits of PMS it saves money by not having to replace a heater too often.its just conversation if you cant take straight talk.well im not the warm a fuzzy type


No drawers in a knot. I tell them pro's and con's of tank vs tankless. I let them decide. Let's face it, if you know and they know that they are not going to take care of it properly the tank is in their best interests. I look at the big picture and their personal habits are a part of the decision making progress. Sorry I came across rude. Just trying to get to the point.


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## heeterman1

*i agree*



Gettinit said:


> So what's you point. Mine is tankless manufacturers hide the truths and you have to service them or they will be needing replacement within 5 years in many installations. The avg tank can handle an 10-12 years and still cost a fraction to replace. I think you missed most points.


 if you have hard water gas heaters need service so they last that 10 12 years.i deal with commercial very few residential.i only go out if its a issue that was a little tricky.i do like tanless ,copper fin tank type sealed combustion,atmospheric they all have there place


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## johntheplumber

heeterman1 said:


> i agree why the union,should be on the hot and cold,i hardly ever used them when i did residential it just adds to your cost butt if its code


The whole reason behind it was so that the homeowner could disconnect and reconnect the heater if necessary. Upsets me because it is basically giving the homeowner instructions on what to do to replace the heater. Blah.


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## Relic

Someone mentioned early in this thread about big brother regulating tank style wh's in 2014? I can't remember who, but I'm curious what is coming. Can anyone edumacate meh.


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## SewerRat

plbgbiz said:


> It is part of Revenge's charm that you will grow to appreciate.
> 
> His posts from a regular keyboard suck. :jester:


You even screwed that up, Biz. You capitalized revenge.:laughing:


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## rjbphd

johntheplumber said:


> City of Dallas, Texas requires that all connections have a union so that the heater can be completely disconnected from the system using only a wrench/channel locks. I just do what I'm told.


What a total bs code... everytimes the heater get replaced, its a different make and size, renders those union useless..
And those die electric unoins are totally useless..


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## Gettinit

Relic said:


> Someone mentioned early in this thread about big brother regulating tank style wh's in 2014? I can't remember who, but I'm curious what is coming. Can anyone edumacate meh.


Phat Cat was the one that brought it to the PZ.


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## heeterman1

rjbphd said:


> What a total bs code... everytime the heater get replaced, its a different make and size, renders those union useless..
> And those die electric unoins are totally useless..


have you ever seen a boiler connected straight copper to galv.not pretty.the dio helps.sounds like the unions are just for convenient of disconnect changing out a heater you can go same for same.buton a residential 3/4 connection i hope you dont worry about that


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## SewerRat

Relic said:


> Someone mentioned early in this thread about big brother regulating tank style wh's in 2014? I can't remember who, but I'm curious what is coming. Can anyone edumacate meh.





Gettinit said:


> Phat Cat was the one that brought it to the PZ.


Objection, Your Honor!!! This thread now belongs in the P&R section.


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## rjbphd

heeterman1 said:


> have you ever seen a boiler connected straight copper to galv.not pretty.the dio helps.sounds like the unions are just for convenient of disconnect changing out a heater you can go same for same.buton a residential 3/4 connection i hope you dont worry about that


 Yes I do... ..never use the die electric on boiler system...


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

rjbphd said:


> Yes I do... ..never use the die electric on boiler system...


Why??


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## love2surf927

heeterman1 said:


> have you ever seen a boiler connected straight copper to galv.not pretty.the dio helps.sounds like the unions are just for convenient of disconnect changing out a heater you can go same for same.buton a residential 3/4 connection i hope you dont worry about that


Those are not true galvanized nipples, they are dielectric nipples, they are lined with plastic. The only reason you would have a problem is if you had a leak on the threads.


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## Gettinit

SewerRat said:


> Objection, Your Honor!!! This thread now belongs in the P&R section.


Is that where it is?


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## JoshJ

What is P&R?


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## Gettinit

JoshJ said:


> What is P&R?


Politics and Religion.


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## johntheplumber

Gettinit said:


> Politics and Religion.


Oh my my. I bet that's a colorful category.


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## Gettinit

johntheplumber said:


> Oh my my. I bet that's a colorful category.


I stay away.:thumbsup:


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## JoshJ

Gettinit said:


> Politics and Religion.


Got it. So there is a minimum post count to get access? 

Stay away? Why? Cause things could get heated and personal on those topics of discussion? :laughing::laughing:


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## Gettinit

JoshJ said:


> Got it. So there is a minimum post count to get access?
> 
> Stay away? Why? Cause things could get heated and personal on those topics of discussion? :laughing::laughing:


Pretty much. I am me and I respect you and that's that. No plumber on this forum is likely to change their minds on much of anything.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

JoshJ said:


> Got it. So there is a minimum post count to get access?
> 
> Stay away? Why? Cause things could get heated and personal on those topics of discussion? :laughing::laughing:


I do t thinks thers a post count req. that's only the biz lounge


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

johntheplumber said:


> Oh my my. I bet that's a colorful category.


Yea go read some after the election. The zone sucked for a good few weeks I was labeled the local racist cuz. Well. Just read it. Lol.


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## johntheplumber

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Yea go read some after the election. The zone sucked for a good few weeks I was labeled the local racist cuz. Well. Just read it. Lol.


Where is it locates or what should I search for?


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

This is how it looks on the I phone 

It's in plumbing community


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## Plumberman911

Look for bull****ter


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## aprilmayb

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> This is how it looks on the I phone
> 
> It's in plumbing community


Mayday! Mayday! Plug your phone in.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER

Na I get down to about 3% then plug it in. I've had it to 2% before. I'm aiming for 1 but it dies first


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## Relic

The politics & religion section is shown when you hit 300 posts. Not sure about the biz lounge. If you can't see the p&r and have over 300 posts, pm plbgbiz


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## OldSchool

johntheplumber said:


> Hey look, I didn't sell a tankless today. It was not in their best interest. So instead we installed a Bradford White.


Hey ... You still have to vent that thing...LOL


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## JoshJ

Relic said:


> The politics & religion section is shown when you hit 300 posts. Not sure about the biz lounge. If you can't see the p&r and have over 300 posts, pm plbgbiz


Gotcha. So If I want in I should go and spam the intro's :laughing:


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## Relic

JoshJ said:


> Gotcha. So If I want in I should go and spam the intro's :laughing:


That's how it's done. You catch on fast. :laughing:


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## JoshJ

johntheplumber said:


> Hey look, I didn't sell a tankless today. It was not in their best interest. So instead we installed a Bradford White.
> 
> View attachment 24990


What's the brass bodied with white plastic top part? On the supply line...


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## johntheplumber

JoshJ said:


> What's the brass bodied with white plastic top part? On the supply line...


That is a flood stop. It is a solenoid that has a sensor in the pan. If it senses water then it closes and sounds the alarm. The benefit over a WAGGS valve is it is resettable.


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## johntheplumber

OldSchool said:


> Hey ... You still have to vent that thing...LOL


Trying out something new. You know, like with a 1970's muscle car. Where you dump exhaust strait down to get more horse power. Something like that. ;-)


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## alberteh

Going back to the OP:

are HWTs inefficient? yup. 

BUT, in Canada we have winter so basically for 9.5 months out of the year any standby losses are greatly appreciated in heating the home... they are cheap and they work. 

done.

That being said i happen to have a Noritz in my own home but it is only for the space savings (built a very energy efficient home, maximizing space usage). It works great but i am under no illusions. It will cost more than a HWT, especially at $3 per GJ


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