# Commercial Heater Backflow



## Esav911 (Apr 26, 2011)

So just replaced a 100gallon by 200,000 BTU lochnivar with a Rheem version. This is in a steak house and they have been getting back fed hot water to the cold system for awhile now. Now that I put the new heater in its a lot worse. Toilet tank is hot and what not. They have mix valves on all the sinks the mechanical sloan ones. Gonna suggest replacing those to some honeywells. They have an old double check backflow preventer that goes to the buildings cold water feed then a swing check to the heater. I'm assuming I need to replace the double check as its in a tight spot and not really easy to test and repair. 

The double check is 6' from the heater, has a tee that feeds cold water some where, then a gate valve and swing check to the heater. My plan is to add a check to the line after the double off the tee as there isn't one and I have no idea what that is feeding cause it has no valve on it. The swing check and double also. All of them are at least 13 years old.


----------



## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Check the mop sink, they love to put them hose splitters on there and leave the water turned on to it.


----------



## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Might want to check the prewash or mop sink faucets first.


----------



## Esav911 (Apr 26, 2011)

Did that comes from the 3 bay sink. They have one of those soap feeds and a valve to shut it off to the spout. So they leave the hot and cold valves on. But need to figure a way to stop it even if they are idiots. The double check should stop the feed to the bathrooms if its piped like I think it is.


----------



## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

put spring checks on all mop sinks, prep sinks and anything with a mixing valve of any kind .


----------



## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Esav911 said:


> Did that comes from the 3 bay sink. They have one of those soap feeds and a valve to shut it off to the spout. So they leave the hot and cold valves on. But need to figure a way to stop it even if they are idiots. The double check should stop the feed to the bathrooms if its piped like I think it is.


Why? Seems like easy money. You show them while it is bad. You fix the problems. Bring them back and show them why they paid you again. Tell them (mgr) and note it on the invoice. Sooner or later they will stop and will not be able to complain about it since it has been documented many times.


----------



## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

Had a Wendys that they would leave the hot and cold open on the pre-rinse. I would go out and shut it off and things would be ok till the next week. This went on for 6 months. I got a call from the district manager asking why i keep sending in bills for that. Told him tell the manager to tell his people to turn off the faucet when not used! LOL


----------



## chuckscott (Oct 20, 2010)

Esav911 said:


> Did that comes from the 3 bay sink. They have one of those soap feeds and a valve to shut it off to the spout. So they leave the hot and cold valves on. But need to figure a way to stop it even if they are idiots. The double check should stop the feed to the bathrooms if its piped like I think it is.


Add 50 bucks to service call each time you go out. 50 the first time, 100 the second, 150the third etc.. not bad scratch for turning a knob.....


----------



## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

victoryplbaz said:


> Had a Wendys that they would leave the hot and cold open on the pre-rinse. I would go out and shut it off and things would be ok till the next week. This went on for 6 months. I got a call from the district manager asking why i keep sending in bills for that. Told him tell the manager to tell his people to turn off the faucet when not used! LOL


I'm sure they find those bills real amusing , instead of you just installing some spring checks on the water lines feeding the sink. No wonder Plumbers get a bad name.


----------



## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

justme said:


> I'm sure they find those bills real amusing , instead of you just installing some spring checks on the water lines feeding the sink. No wonder Plumbers get a bad name.


You are going to hear crap either way. Why install needless check valves, spring checks in the faucets aside? Those spring checks in the faucets should be in the pre rinse faucets to begin with. What kind of idiot leaves a faucet on when they are done? Maybe idiot is a poor choice of words...ignorant. After the first time they are idiots. They need to know how to operate the faucets. If that means they need to pay, they pay. What, I am supposed to reinvent the wheel for these people? Is that really supposed to make us look better. Spending hundreds of extra dollars because they can't turn off a faucet.....yeah, that will make me look better. Explain that one.

If it were my restaurant I would fire the person costing me money for such a thing.


----------



## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Gettinit said:


> You are going to hear crap either way. Why install needless check valves, spring checks in the faucets aside? Those spring checks in the faucets should be in the pre rinse faucets to begin with. What kind of idiot leaves a faucet on when they are done? Maybe idiot is a poor choice of words...ignorant. After the first time they are idiots. They need to know how to operate the faucets. If that means they need to pay, they pay. What, I am supposed to reinvent the wheel for these people? Is that really supposed to make us look better. Spending hundreds of extra dollars because they can't turn off a faucet.....yeah, that will make me look better. Explain that one.
> 
> If it were my restaurant I would fire the person costing me money for such a thing.


I have installed 1000's of prerinse, add a spouts and spray head faucets. the internal checks NEVER work. So its better to laugh at your customer and charge him multiple trip charges and dozens of needless hours of work instead of doing it right the first time? It is your job to protect the customer , not laugh behind their back about how ignorant their employees are.


----------



## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

justme said:


> I have installed 1000's of prerinse, add a spouts and spray head faucets. the internal checks NEVER work. So its better to laugh at your customer and charge him multiple trip charges and dozens of needless hours of work instead of doing it right the first time? It is your job to protect the customer , not laugh behind their back about how ignorant their employees are.


It is my job to put in what is needed and educate them. Those spring checks are not meant to be used 24/7/365. Of course they will fail. As far as laughing, I do think it is funny that they don't listen because they don't care, and they are still employed there. I am not going to get mad about it. I don't fault you for going above and beyond.


----------



## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Gettinit said:


> It is my job to put in what is needed and educate them. Those spring checks are not meant to be used 24/7/365. Of course they will fail. As far as laughing, I do think it is funny that they don't listen because they don't care, and they are still employed there. I am not going to get mad about it. I don't fault you for going above and beyond.



Every restaurant or grocery store we have put in all lines feeding mopsinks, prepsinks and have spring checks installed . Doesn't matter if its a new store, remodel , or service call . One of my guys installed about 50 spring checks last week at a food prep facility because the idiot plumbers that plumbed the place didn't install them on anything . They had soap mixing devices at every door that would spray your feet down before you walked in that had hot and cold mixing with out any checks at all. I guess I look at it different because I believe its my job to protect the customer from themselves sometimes if need be.


----------



## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

justme said:


> Every restaurant or grocery store we have put in all lines feeding mopsinks, prepsinks and have spring checks installed . Doesn't matter if its a new store, remodel , or service call . One of my guys installed about 50 spring checks last week at a food prep facility because the idiot plumbers that plumbed the place didn't install them on anything . They had soap mixing devices at every door that would spray your feet down before you walked in that had hot and cold mixing with out any checks at all. I guess I look at it different because I believe its my job to protect the customer from themselves sometimes if need be.


OK. That seems like a legitimate job to add them if the mixing valves didn't already have them built in.


----------



## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

As far as me laughing at them and charging them...Well yes i did try to teach them to t u r n o f f the faucet as they were done using it. Its not my job to stand there and make sure they do their job and turn off the faucet. Do i have someone behind me telling me to unplug my electric rooter machine when im done?? or to turn off my B tank when im done?? or to pick up my meter key when i turn on the water to a house?? Tell ya what.. after i paid for that lost meter key the first time. I never lost it again. 

So yeah i charged them for every call i went out there on. And even after telling them over the phone to turn off the faucet.


----------



## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

oh.. forgot to add.... i did tell them to install check valves.....i was told they cant justify that cost at the time..


----------



## Brian Ayres (Sep 9, 2012)

I think adding spring checks on the supplies to the pre-rinse, mop sink etc is prudent and exactly what most customers want. :thumbsup: The thing with "educating" their employees to turn off the faucets is you have to remember that most restaurants have high turnover. 

If you fired guys for failing to turn off the faucets when not in use they'd have nobody working there. :blink:

Besides, the T&S integral checks always fail before the faucet stem wears out.

I was called out on a warranty call for two Takagi TM-2's at a grocery store, ten spring checks later, and re-piping the return they now have hot on the hot side, and cold on the cold side. There was no way to "educate" 15 deli employees.

I'm always one for idiot proofing designs.


----------



## Esav911 (Apr 26, 2011)

Why would you settle for a service call charge instead of the big money of putting in the checks? 

Main reason I am putting them in is cause this place caters to an upper client base and older. Last thing I need is somehow a customer getting hit with to hot of water and burning their hands.

Lot of the piping is in the wall and no accessible. So I am hoping to do the mains and solve it.


----------

