# Inspectors think they can part the oceans!!!



## cityplumbing

Just had a final inspection yesterday the inspector shows up looks around. The fat ass cant even bend over to look under the sink yet tells me he doesnt accept continuous wastes for a residential double bowl Kitchen sink he wants one trap for each sink. So I say according to the Florida Building Code your allowed to have one trap for a kitchen sink. Hes says i want two traps. I say can you give me a reason and he refused to...This was the second time this guy did this to me over something stupid that made no sense so I repiped it useing two san tees stacked on top of eachother and it looked like ass...Nice job!!!:furious: Anyone in Florida ever experience an inspector like this? I wonder how they can get away with it there just costing me more money. If he would of failed me and I had to pay for another inspection I would of felt like he was extorting me for money. Miserable Hole..


----------



## ToUtahNow

Everyone has a boss including your inspector. I would have been in his office the same day.

Mark


----------



## SlickRick

There is no " I don't except " It is either up to code, or it's not. Is the guy new? I would start with the Chief Inspector and work up to the B.O. if necessary. I just don't have it in me to let things like this go without being addressed.


----------



## cityplumbing

I heard about inspectors like this in Florida before but never experienced it first hand.
The guy had no reason what so ever to give me a hard time.. He couldn't back up his decision either which is bullsh**..He wasn't new.. I was told by a roofing contractor that had a similar issue that regaurdless of what the Florida Building Code says the local building official has last say.. I can't see how this is possibly because the inspectors can just make there own rules considering they have no written rules and we as plumbers have none to follow, so I would be expected to ask the building department about everything including if I can wipe my own ass...


----------



## cityplumbing

Before and after pics..


----------



## SlickRick

Do all the plumbers in Fl. just take the crap?


----------



## Cotton06

SlickRick said:


> Do all the plumbers just take the crap?


I don't take it. If I have a problem with an inspector I will definitely go over his head. Some inspectors have never worked the field everything they know came from a class room book.


----------



## SlickRick

Cotton06 said:


> I don't take it. If I have a problem with an inspector I will definitely go over his head. Some inspectors have never worked the field everything they know came from a class room book.


I'm with you.

How about posting a intro so the natives don't get restless.

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/


----------



## Tommy plumber

CityPlumbing, so inspector turned down the pic on the left and approved the pic on the right?

In my humble opinion, the right pic shows the tail-piece offsetting twice before it reaches the p-trap. I would've used a wye branch fitting or even a double-wye instead of (2) san tees. Then you could've avoided having to use the offset tail-peice in the after pic. That offset tail-peice appears to be an 'S' trap. The only time I've seen those is when a floor drain is too far from a vented line, then the code allows those extra offsets.


----------



## Redwood

cityplumbing said:


> Before and after pics..


Wow! 

Get his name and address....
I'll send him a signed copy of my book...:laughing:


----------



## plumb nutz

Tommy plumber said:


> CityPlumbing, so inspector turned down the pic on the left and approved the pic on the right?
> 
> In my humble opinion, the right pic shows the tail-piece offsetting twice before it reaches the p-trap. I would've used a wye branch fitting or even a double-wye instead of (2) san tees. Then you could've avoided having to use the offset tail-peice in the after pic. That offset tail-peice appears to be an 'S' trap. The only time I've seen those is when a floor drain is too far from a vented line, then the code allows those extra offsets.


It's not an s-trap, its just am offset into the trap. Think of and Ada sink that has an offset 90 towards the wall to hit the trap to allow for clearance


----------



## Tommy plumber

plumb nutz said:


> It's not an s-trap, its just am offset into the trap. Think of and Ada sink that has an offset 90 towards the wall to hit the trap to allow for clearance


 



True, that's why I said it _appears_ to be an 'S'-trap. He's probably close to the 30" limit on the horizontal distance from the centerline of fixture to the trap centerline of the inlet of the trap.

We're kind of splitting hairs here, I know. P-traps are supposed to be located as close to the fixture drain as possible.


----------



## Redwood

The stacked Sani-Tees definitely don't cut it.... :laughing:


----------



## SlickRick

Redwood said:


> The stacked Sani-Tees definitely don't cut it.... :laughing:


It would here, why not in Ct.?


----------



## Plumberman

Stacked Tees would fly here as long as you don't have a major over a minor.

The AAV fails in the State of Louisiana though...


----------



## Redwood

Oh it might get passed alright...
But you can rest assured the inspector wouldn't tell you to do it that way...

It kinda stretches wet venting a bit doesn't it?

I could see an inspector telling you to use a double fixture fitting in this application...


----------



## SlickRick

Redwood said:


> Oh it might get passed alright...
> But you can rest assured the inspector wouldn't tell you to do it that way...
> 
> It kinda stretches wet venting a bit doesn't it?
> 
> I could see an inspector telling you to use a double fixture fitting in this application...


A 2 x 11/2 san cross would have made it look more uniform. Or even a 11/2 at that point.


----------



## Widdershins

Redwood said:


> The stacked Sani-Tees definitely don't cut it.... :laughing:


 Wouldn't fly in my neck of the woods either -- Neither would the 2" medium turn 90.


----------



## Widdershins

plumb nutz said:


> It's not an s-trap, its just am offset into the trap. Think of and Ada sink that has an offset 90 towards the wall to hit the trap to allow for clearance


 I don't know why he didn't just aim the lower san-tee at the left sink compartment.

And where is the cleanout?


----------



## plumb nutz

IMHO, the first pic may be "ok" but I personally have an issue with the tee in the center as it has a baffle to direct the waste and tends to be nothing more than the cause of a future clog. Here, that piping wouldnt be considered a continuous waste as the lines tie together, here the waste arm ties into the tailpiece with a directional tee above the trap.

On the second pic wouldn't it have been easier if not cleaner to have used a wye and separate traps rather than the stacked dangers?


----------



## Redwood

plumb nutz said:


> On the second pic wouldn't it have been easier if not cleaner to have used a wye and separate traps rather than the stacked dangers?


That would put 2 traps on one arm...


----------



## Widdershins

plumb nutz said:


> On the second pic wouldn't it have been easier if not cleaner to have used a wye and separate traps rather than the stacked dangers?


 Technically, that would have put two traps on a single trap arm.


----------



## Widdershins

Redwood said:


> That would put 2 traps on one arm...


 Living proof great minds think alike, eh?:laughing:


----------



## Redwood

Widdershins said:


> Living proof great minds think alike, eh?:laughing:


Yep... Fo Sho.... :laughing:


----------



## SlickRick

Get a room.


----------



## Widdershins

plumb nutz said:


> IMHO, the first pic may be "ok" but I personally have an issue with the tee in the center as it has a baffle to direct the waste and tends to be nothing more than the cause of a future clog.


 I would have used an end outlet continuous waste.


----------



## plumb nutz

Yea... That's what I meant, couldn't think of the terms, so I got wordy...


----------



## cityplumbing

The first pic with the tubular tee is the way I did it at first. From center of the tee to center of the tail peice is about 12in. so its under my 30in. allowance. After the inspector told me he doesnt like the continuous waste. He told me at that point to put a wye in and I would have by choice but I decided to stack the tees as another code compliant way of piping this arangement to see what e would say at that point but he passed it saying "Thats another way to do it". You have three ways to unclog the drain one through the Studdor vent or through the 2- 1 1/2in. tubular adapters..:boxing:


----------



## cityplumbing

Tommy plumber said:


> CityPlumbing, so inspector turned down the pic on the left and approved the pic on the right?
> 
> In my humble opinion, the right pic shows the tail-piece offsetting twice before it reaches the p-trap. I would've used a wye branch fitting or even a double-wye instead of (2) san tees. Then you could've avoided having to use the offset tail-peice in the after pic. That offset tail-peice appears to be an 'S' trap. The only time I've seen those is when a floor drain is too far from a vented line, then the code allows those extra offsets.


I used the offset because the material was used already on the original layout I just eliminated the tee and used the right shoe and offset into the trap.


----------



## easttexasplumb

I would have come out of the wall with a wye, and trapped each compartment. Then went to the building official and asked WTF.


----------



## cityplumbing

Im sure every way were talking about will work fine and they all comply with_ Florida Building _c_ode.._The bottom line is I was harrased by this guy and I should complain to his boss. I don't want him to be doing that to someone else in the future...


----------



## plumb nutz

Your probably going to be wasting your breath. Here, after a few hour course, you too can be an inspector, and be a pain the the @ss to any tradesman. If you want to protest, the boss will back their guy and you'd have to go to the state. Pretty much, its cheaper and quicker to make it "right". Unless its going to cost you big bucks let it go, befriend the guy and teach him what he would know...


----------



## cityplumbing

plumb nutz said:


> Your probably going to be wasting your breath. Here, after a few hour course, you too can be an inspector, and be a pain the the @ss to any tradesman. If you want to protest, the boss will back their guy and you'd have to go to the state. Pretty much, its cheaper and quicker to make it "right". Unless its going to cost you big bucks let it go, befriend the guy and teach him what he would know...


You got a point, I did let it it go when he came back and passed me I smiled and said enjoy your weekend. I just hate the fact that he said his way is what I need to comply with not the _Florida Building Code_.


----------



## plumb nutz

Thing that gets me is that it comes down to interpretation, yours, mine, the inspector, depending on how its read


----------



## Plumbus

I don't understand why your code allows AAV's on a two compartment kitchen sink. It's the most likely fixture in the house to be fouled by the buildup of gunk. Good venting, as well as positive trap seal, is critical to waste flow, nowhere more so than at this catchall plumbing workhorse.


----------



## RealLivePlumber

It would have been nice to get that Studor vent up as high as you can.

What do you think will happen when that drain backs up?


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> You got a point, I did let it it go when he came back and passed me I smiled and said enjoy your weekend. I just hate the fact that he said his way is what I need to comply with not the _Florida Building Code_.


 I say be careful how you pick your battles -- And it sounds like you have that well in hand.

My general rule of thumb is, if the cost of the corrections is less than $200.00, then I'll make the corrections and just let it go. I've already factored in a $500.00 PITA allowance when I submitted my budget.

If the cost to make the corrections exceeds $200.00, then I'm on my speed dial talking to Dave, Steve or Mark (depending on the area I'm working in) before the N00b even gets back to his Prius.

I actually have a really good working relationship with all of my Inspectors -- I've known most of these guys (and the one gal) for over 20 years. They're good people who, like the rest of us, are trying to muddle their way through the new learning curve thrown at us with each code revision and the introduction of new materials.


----------



## Widdershins

RealLivePlumber said:


> It would have been nice to get that Studor vent up as high as you can.
> 
> What do you think will happen when that drain backs up?


 If it's in proper working order, it'll stay shut.


----------



## Bill

I have on many occasions argued with building and plumbing inspectors. They are a public employee and nothing more. They have no right to turn down anything nor dis respect anyone. If they get out of hand with me I demand to speak to their supervisor.


----------



## Widdershins

Bill said:


> I have on many occasions argued with building and plumbing inspectors. They are a public employee and nothing more. They have no right to turn down anything nor dis respect anyone. If they get out of hand with me I demand to speak to their supervisor.


 Just make sure that hill is worth dying for before you go to battle over it.

I'm not even half as adversarial in real life as I am here in The Zone.

Most of my Peers think I'm a pretty decent guy.

I digress. . . . .

I am painfully aware of the friction generated each time I go over an Inspectors head -- So I try my best to go with the flow and anticipate the Inspector assigned to my areas pet peeves.

Dave, Mark, Keith, Steve, Les, Randall, Tracy, whoever -- I've dealt with all of them long enough to know what is going to set them off.

As a professional courtesy, I do my level best to address those peeves during the rough-in phase.


----------



## cityplumbing

I always respect people in general and always talk to an inspector with the respect that I want to receive. All he would have had to say is according to the _Florida Buiding code_ this doesnt meet the minimum standards... Or if he had another reason I would accept it also.. But its over and done with I will learn from it and possibly call him everyday next time im on a job in his municipality to get his ok lol....:tank:


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> But its over and done with I will learn from it and possibly call him everyday next time im on a job in his municipality to get his ok lol....:tank:



There is no shame in getting to know them on a personable level.

I think you did the right thing in satisfying his pet peeves.

This was minor and cost you less than 10 bucks in materials and a few hours of your time -- Next time you deal with him you'll know what sets him off.


----------



## Plumbus

Redwood said:


> Not really....
> 
> But you sure need it to protect the trap seal....


When the arteries start to harden, as they always will at the kitchen sink, and the channel shrinks, the equilibrium provided by a proper vent becomes more and more critical.


----------



## Plumbus

Study and learn your code so that it is second nature. If an inspector questions your work, ask for specific code reference. Not today nor maybe tomorrow, but eventually the word gets out that you know what you're talking about. Inspectors will be more circumspect around you. Besides, if they actually find something wrong with your work, they are doing you a favor by pointing it out. Better them than an attorney.


----------



## rocksteady

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> In my opinion if you can't afford to properly vent the waste you can't afford a renovation why should we cheapen our work so they can have nicer tile it doesn't make sense to give people an option that hurts the quality of the plumbing and hurts our bottom line


I agree but in a state where anybody can do what we do, I have to pick my battles carefully. If I turned down all the work that could be done to code but was borderline (or not borderline depending on who here is judging) hack-ish, I'd have no work. I appreciate areas like NYC, Chicago and SF that have strict code and licensing requirements. They do the trade a valuable service by making it harder for the unqualified to do work. I would gladly follow the strictest code and licensing laws if it meant that the trade here in California would be cleaned up. 


I can't pass up pex repipes, no matter how much I'd love to do them in copper. If I bid every repipe with copper pipe, I doubt I'd get 5% of them. If I did all my w/h replacements with rigid copper, I'd be too expensive so I use code approved flex lines. I replace leaking cast iron waste with PVC or ABS rather than put cast iron back in for the same, broken record reason. It's all about doing the best we can in our market while following the local codes and staying legal.







Paul


----------



## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

I do understand


----------



## Redwood

rocksteady said:


> I agree but in a state where anybody can do what we do, I have to pick my battles carefully. If I turned down all the work that could be done to code but was borderline (or not borderline depending on who here is judging) hack-ish, I'd have no work. I appreciate areas like NYC, Chicago and SF that have strict code and licensing requirements. They do the trade a valuable service by making it harder for the unqualified to do work. I would gladly follow the strictest code and licensing laws if it meant that the trade here in California would be cleaned up.
> 
> Paul


Actually Paul right in NY State a very similar situation to California exists...

Once you get out of NYC and out into the other counties it is a whole other world where each county licenses the masters who run the businesses and they have unlicensed employees....

I've seen professionally done plumbing installs in Upstate NY that would rival the best of what you have posted from California... :yes:


----------



## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

True 
Even in nyc employees have no lic and even the newly established certified journeyman doesn't give you the privilege to plumb in nyc its just required to become a master 
By being under the direct and constant supervision (extends to the third person) of a master gives you the right to design, repair and maintain plumbing systems


----------



## stillaround

When I go pull a permit in a new county...I ask to meet the inspector and ask him if he has any pet peeves....Baker county for example does not like them...so why grieve him..
staying cool with the inspectors is good politics IMO...I have argued before though...when its all said and done you send a kid out there to fix it.......thats not where money is lost..


----------



## Protech

By florida law he must give an actual code citation # that you are in violation of in order to fail your inspection.

When I get an idiot like that I just ask for my citation number. That usually shuts them up because I just made them actually do their job.They must either do one of two things at that point.

1. shrug it off and sign off on it

or

2. crack open a code book and find a citation # to fail you on.

They always do #1 because #2 involves them actually doing their job and that aint happinen. 



cityplumbing said:


> Just had a final inspection yesterday the inspector shows up looks around. The fat ass cant even bend over to look under the sink yet tells me he doesnt accept continuous wastes for a residential double bowl Kitchen sink he wants one trap for each sink. So I say according to the Florida Building Code your allowed to have one trap for a kitchen sink. Hes says i want two traps. I say can you give me a reason and he refused to...This was the second time this guy did this to me over something stupid that made no sense so I repiped it useing two san tees stacked on top of eachother and it looked like ass...Nice job!!!:furious: Anyone in Florida ever experience an inspector like this? I wonder how they can get away with it there just costing me more money. If he would of failed me and I had to pay for another inspection I would of felt like he was extorting me for money. Miserable Hole..


----------



## gitnerdun

cityplumbing said:


> Before and after pics..


Back on topic. 2 traps definately better than one. Pic #2 looks like a quick easy way to please the inspector and move on. It a'int pretty. I would have used a socket saver to remove the st tee and raise it up to a double san tee. Too many slip joints.

As for AAVs, the reason they are so popular in my area is that everyone is trying to be the lowest bid and AAVs save a lot of time. I do custom homes and use AAVs only when no other option.

Look at the fiberglass sink, that is no custom job, probably 1 of 100 homes being built fast and cheap.

Not insulting here. Just saying it is a sign of the times.


----------



## plbgbiz

Individual traps are required here.


----------



## SlickRick

Moved post to Red's rambling vent thread.


----------



## okcplum

Called for a final inspection yesterday on a water heater, inspector failed "t&p can't terminate to the drain pan"
failed....
i call him on it and quote ipc 2009, water heaters, 504.6.5, discharge to the floor, to the pan serving the water heater or storage tank, to a waste receptor or to the out doors.

He said thats wrong so i hang up.

i get a call today from the inspector telling me that i can put it in writing to them for consideration as it does state this in the ipc 2009 but they have not adopted that code.... total b,s.

calls me again to then say that he has talked it through with his boss and says its ok but i have to pay a re inspection fee as he did fail it... wtf.


----------



## plbgbiz

Water heater requirements vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction here. They all have their own little peeves that matter most. When doing a heater in a new municipality, it's a good idea to touch base with the inspector in advance to verify the big issues for them.


----------



## Tommy plumber

Here, T&P drain line can terminate in the safepan.


----------



## cityplumbing

Yea, It's apparently up to how the inspector is feeling that particular day I guess..It's like we don't even have a code to follow it just gets twisted around from municipality to municipality. Also had an inspection today on a water heater. I called before hand to ask about the drain pan as well. He preferred the relief piped directly outside apposed to the pan even though the code said otherwise..


----------



## Epox

Refering back to the pics (and original thread), City inspector here does NOT allow auto vents. If he did you would need a really air tight reason and even then maybe not. Fortunatly our state inspectors are more liberal and don't seem to have points to prove but I do like to have the auto vent as high as I can get it glued on.


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL

Widdershins said:


> I don't know why he didn't just aim the lower san-tee at the left sink compartment. <snip>
> 
> The inspector failed it he had to repipe. That tee was already glued.


----------



## Widdershins

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Widdershins said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know why he didn't just aim the lower san-tee at the left sink compartment. <snip>
> 
> The inspector failed it he had to repipe. That tee was already glued.
> 
> 
> 
> I got that part.
> 
> If it had been me, I would have cut it out and started over.
> 
> Cut the MT 90 just in front of the lower hub, make a couple of lateral cuts across the hub and then peel it right off.
Click to expand...


----------



## cityplumbing

Widdershins said:


> PLUMBER_BILL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I got that part.
> 
> If it had been me, I would have cut it out and started over.
> 
> Cut the MT 90 just in front of the lower hub, make a couple of lateral cuts across the hub and then peel it right off.
> 
> 
> 
> I repiped it with those stacked san tee's to be a pain in the ars like he was being to me.He told me he wanted it repiped with a wye and two traps but he got it done my way by code. Both ways!!Bottom line is he passed it.:thumbsup:
Click to expand...


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> Widdershins said:
> 
> 
> 
> I repiped it with those stacked san tee's to be a pain in the ass like he was being to me.He told me he wanted it repiped with a wye and two traps but he got it done my way by code. Both ways!!Bottom line is he passed it.:thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> Fine.
> 
> Whatever.
> 
> I guess you showed him.
> 
> Meanwhile, the HO has to deal with several unnecessary tubular plastic offsets.
> 
> Like I said, I guess you showed him whats what.
Click to expand...


----------



## cityplumbing

Widdershins said:


> cityplumbing said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fine.
> 
> Whatever.
> 
> I guess you showed him.
> 
> Meanwhile, the HO has to deal with several unnecessary tubular plastic offsets.
> 
> Like I said, I guess you showed him whats what.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing wrong with tubular offsets.. Never seen an issue with them. Not just showed him, just didn't feel like dealing with his ish he was giving me unnecessary work for his pleasure.. If he had a legitimate reason and was respectful I would have had no problem with that..
Click to expand...


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> Widdershins said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing wrong with tubular offsets.. Never seen an issue with them.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, you stuck it to 'The Man'.
> 
> Isn't that what's important here?
> 
> Again. Whatever.
Click to expand...


----------



## cityplumbing

Its about plumbers not laying down like sheep for inspectors that have ego problems..


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> Its about plumbers not laying down like sheep for inspectors that have ego problems..


 Absolutely.

OTOH, it's also about doing right by the person paying for the services being rendered.

You could have done this in a way that satisfied both your Prick of an Inspector and the Individual signing the check for less than ten dollars in fittings.

That you didn't says a great deal about you.


----------



## cityplumbing

If I thought the home owner would have an issue I wouldn't have installed it that way there's absolutely nothing wrong with it piped either way. Your telling me because there's an offset in the tubular that there's a potential problem?


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> If I thought the home owner would have an issue I wouldn't have installed it that way there's absolutely nothing wrong with it piped either way. Your telling me because there's an offset in the tubular that there's a potential problem?


 I'm telling you this could have been a cleaner installation if you'd spent the obligatory 10 bucks and pulled your head out of your arse.

Look, you 'Stuck it to the Man'.

Isn't that what's important here?


----------



## cityplumbing

Isn't that whats important here???? Yea this thread is about inspectors getting over on plumbers and I showed an example of a particular situation..That's all!! So now my work isnt clean enough for you?? The home owner has no issues he's happy, inspectors happy and Im happy and It's done to code. I think that's what's important here!!


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> Isn't that whats important here???? Yea this thread is about inspectors getting over on plumbers and I showed an example of a particular situation..That's all!! So now my work isnt clean enough for you?? TO BAD BUDDY!!! The home owner has no issues he's happy, inspectors happy and Im happy and It's done to code.


 Meanwhile, you have 2 tubular plastic offsets that could have been avoided if you'd just pulled your head out of your arse.

I spend hours laying out jobs. Some weeks that's all I do.

I would have canned you in a heartbeat if the above photos are representative of your best.


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> Isn't that whats important here???? Yea this thread is about inspectors getting over on plumbers and I showed an example of a particular situation..That's all!! So now my work isnt clean enough for you?? The home owner has no issues he's happy, inspectors happy and Im happy and It's done to code. I think that's what's important here!!


 Doing the job right is what's important.


----------



## cityplumbing

Widdershins said:


> Meanwhile, you have 2 tubular plastic offsets that could have been avoided if you'd just pulled your head out of your arse.
> 
> I spend hours laying out jobs. Some weeks that's all I do.
> 
> I would have canned you in a heartbeat if the above photos are representative of your best.


Good thing I work for myself then. I don't need hours to lay out kitchen waste piping. Maybe you should spend more time meditating 

PS: I'm not in a contest. I have nothing to prove I know what I can do and I get highly compensated for it...

Where in this thread did I say that these pictures represent my best work?


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> Good thing I work for myself then. Because I'm done working for
> arsholes like you. I don't need hours to lay out kitchen waste piping. Maybe you should spend more time meditating
> 
> PS: I'm not in a contest. I have nothing to prove I know what I can do and I get highly compensated for it...


 Fine.

What I've learned from this thread is that you'd rather kiss your Inspectors arse and just get the job signed off. Fuque the guy paying the bills.

Whatever.

You're a hack -- Don't you dare ever convince yourself you're anything but a hack.


----------



## cityplumbing

Widdershins said:


> Fine.
> 
> What I've learned from this thread is that you'd rather kiss your Inspectors arse and just get the job signed off. Fuque the guy paying the bills.
> 
> Whatever.
> 
> You're a hack -- Don't you dare ever convince yourself you're anything but a hack.


 
Maybe you should learn how to interpret these posts moron. I could care less of your opinion. And try to avoid using the word "whatever" after every post because it just seems like you have nothing else to say. Hack?You know nothing of my experience or work and yet your quick to point a finger after looking at a situation I was in and happen to share it openly.. Fuque the guy paying the bills? Who would that be?


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> Maybe you should learn how to interpret these posts moron. I could care less of your opinion. And try to avoid using the word "whatever" after every post because it just seems like you have nothing else to say. Hack?You know nothing of my experience or work and yet your quick to point a finger after looking at a situation I was in and happen to share it openly.. Fuque the guy paying the bills? Who would that be?


I've seen your work and I tried like a mother****er to be sympathetic as you battled with your Inspector.

I *DO* think your Inspector is a Prick -- But I also still think you're a hack.

You could have made this situation right on so many levels.

You didn't.

That says a lot about you.


----------



## cityplumbing

Widdershins said:


> I've seen your work and I tried like a mother****er to be sympathetic as you battled with your Inspector.
> 
> I *DO* think your Inspector is a Prick -- But I also still think you're a hack.
> 
> You could have made this situation right on so many levels.
> 
> You didn't.
> 
> That says a lot about you.


 
Your way doesn't make it right?? It is fine the way it is and will function fine if you new anything about plumbing you would realize that...And I know your an arsehole.. And the way your coming of like this just confirms it. So try to read what you have been posting and maybe take YOUR head out of your ars...Do you hear yourself?


----------



## cityplumbing

You seen my work!! Yea this kitchen sink waste defines my whole career..

Wow!! You should get a treat for pointing that out..


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> Your way doesn't make it right?? It is fine the way it is and will function fine if you new anything about plumbing you would realize that...And I know your an arsehole.. And the way your coming of like this just confirms it. So try to read what you have been posting and maybe take YOUR head out of your ass...Do you hear yourself?


 I hear myself just fine.

You screwed the pooch on this one -- No way around that.

BTW, I spoke with several Florida Plumbing Inspectors after you started this thread.

The issue wasn't with the continuous waste -- It was the center outlet.

Re-read the corrections listed by your Inspector -- I read them and it seemed pretty obvious what his issues were.

Your Inspector would have signed off on the job if you'd used a 'end outlet' continuous waste.


----------



## cityplumbing

Widdershins said:


> I hear myself just fine.
> 
> You screwed the pooch on this one -- No way around that.
> 
> BTW, I spoke with several Florida Plumbing Inspectors after you started this thread.
> 
> The issue wasn't with the continuous waste -- It was the center outlet.
> 
> Re-read the corrections listed by your Inspector -- I read them and it seemed pretty obvious what his issues were.
> 
> Your Inspector would have signed off on the job if you'd used a 'end outlet' continuous waste.


You read the corrections huh? First of technically he never failed the work smart ass he gave me an hour to re-pipe it or I would have had to reschedule it.. That's why it was done like that the quickest way I could do it with the material I had utilizing two traps and no continuous waste..

You just lost all credibility because he DID sign of on it the same day actually an hour later and there wasn't anything written up on me because he didn't fail me. And he said to me I want two traps and no continuous waste..


----------



## cityplumbing

Seriously!! Where did you read these corrections? Your a liar huh?? You tell your customers lies like that to I bet..


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> You read the corrections huh? First of technically he never failed the work smart ass he gave me an hour to re-pipe it or I would have had to reschedule it.. That's why it was done like that the quickest way I could do it with the material I had utilizing two traps and no continuous waste..
> 
> You just lost all credibility because he DID sign of on it the same day actually an hour later and there wasn't anything written up on me because he didn't fail me. And he said to me I want two traps and no continuous waste..


 I didn't read "the corrections".

I just know which questions to ask.

And yes, he would have accepted an end outlet continuous waste if you'd bothered.


----------



## cityplumbing

Widdershins said:


> I hear myself just fine.
> 
> You screwed the pooch on this one -- No way around that.
> 
> BTW, I spoke with several Florida Plumbing Inspectors after you started this thread.<----I'm not talking about all FL inspectors just this one..
> 
> The issue wasn't with the continuous waste -- It was the center outlet.<----This is you telling me something that you made up..
> 
> Re-read the corrections listed by your Inspector -- I read them and it seemed pretty obvious what his issues were. <---This is you telling me you read the corrections listed by so called inspector..
> 
> Your Inspector would have signed off on the job if you'd used a 'end outlet' continuous waste.


 ---->This is me telling you again that he said no CONTINUOUS WASTE AND TWO TRAPS..


----------



## cityplumbing

Widdershins said:


> I didn't read "the corrections".<---This is you changing your story again....
> 
> I just know which questions to ask. <--This just doesn't make sense..
> 
> And yes, he would have accepted an end outlet continuous waste if you'd bothered.<---This is you putting words in an inspectors mouth that you never met,talked to or even know what municipality he works in.[/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Good Job Liar!!! I love how you decided to attack me on this.:thumbup:


----------



## Plumberman

Think it would do y'all both good to take a step back.

Just my two cents.


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> ---->This is me telling you again that he said no CONTINUOUS WASTE AND TWO TRAPS..


 And this is me telling you to be familiar enough with your Code to call the Inspectors bluff.

Talk to your peers. Every single one of them will tell you that a center outlet continuous waste is going to be frowned upon.

The baffles in the tee are cootie catchers.

I stand by my original assessment -- Any Plumber worthy of his or her licensure would have aimed the tee at one bowl or another and used an end outlet continuous waste to connect the two bowls.

Using a center outlet continuous waste when other options are available (And they definitely were) is the mark of a hack.


----------



## cityplumbing

Plumberman said:


> Think it would do y'all both good to take a step back.
> 
> Just my two cents.


 
I'm trying I really am I just don't appreciate being called a hack by someone that doesn't know me. I earned my position and I'm tested everyday. I'm passionate in what I do and I'm aware of not being perfect and not knowing everything. I don't like being talked to like that...:furious:


----------



## Widdershins

Plumberman said:


> Think it would do y'all both good to take a step back.
> 
> Just my two cents.


 I could have chosen a better way to confront this, but I'm pretty much done here.

He gets it or he doesn't.

No skin off my sack.


----------



## Plumberman

Everybody has their own opinions of how they do things, we all feel strongly about our points. Y'all both call it like y'all see it, nothing wrong with that. 

Agree to disagree.

Again I have no dog in this fight


----------



## cityplumbing

Widdershins said:


> And this is me telling you to be familiar enough with your Code to call the Inspectors bluff.
> 
> Talk to your peers. Every single one of them will tell you that a center outlet continuous waste is going to be frowned upon.
> 
> The baffles in the tee are cootie catchers.
> 
> I stand by my original assessment -- Any Plumber worthy of his or her licensure would have aimed the tee at one bowl or another and used an end outlet continuous waste to connect the two bowls.
> 
> Using a center outlet continuous waste when other options are available (And they definitely were) is the mark of a hack.


First of there's no continuos waste mentioned for a kitchen sink in my code. And here is what it says in the exceptions permitting one trap. 

*1002.1 Fixture traps.* Each plumbing fixture shall be separately trapped by a water-seal trap, except as otherwise permitted by this code. The vertical distance from the fixture outlet to the trap weir shall not exceed 24 inches (610 mm) and the horizontal distance shall not exceed 30 inches (610 mm) measured from the centerline of the fixture outlet to the centerline of the inlet of the trap. The height of a clothes washer standpipe above a trap shall conform to Section 802.4. A fixture shall not be double trapped. *

Exceptions:* 









1. This section shall not apply to fixtures with integral traps.







2. A combination plumbing fixture is permitted to be installed on one trap, provided that one compartment is not more than 6 inches (152 mm) deeper than the other compartment and the waste outlets are not more than 30 inches (762 mm) apart.


----------



## cityplumbing

Widdershins said:


> I could have chosen a better way to confront this, but I'm pretty much done here.
> 
> He gets it or he doesn't. Get what ?That your going to tell me what I know and what I don't know. And your going to bash me about something that you don't know all the facts about..
> 
> No skin off my sack.


I want an apology from you!!! You shouldn't call someone that on here you should know better...


----------



## Widdershins

Since you have your Code Book out -- What does the IPC have to say about two traps on a single trap arm?

What does the IPC have to say about wet venting a kitchen sink?

Lastly, what does the IPC say about AAV's?


----------



## cityplumbing

Widdershins said:


> Since you have your Code Book out -- What does the IPC have to say about two traps on a single trap arm?
> 
> What does the IPC have to say about wet venting a kitchen sink?
> 
> Lastly, what does the IPC say about AAV's?


Do I really need to post that or do you really don't know what it says..


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> I want an apology from you!!! You shouldn't call someone that on here you should know better...


 As someone who's apologized for going off the deep end in the past, all I have to say is good luck with that, CP.

Stone cold sober here. Not a chance of that ever happening.


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> Do I really need to post that or do you really don't know what it says..


 I think it's high time you reacquainted yourself with what you should already know.


----------



## cityplumbing

Widdershins said:


> As someone who's apologized for going off the deep end in the past, all I have to say is good luck with that, CP.
> 
> Stone cold sober here. Not a chance of that ever happening. Didn't think it would happen your not a stand up guy..


 
Good talk by the way champ...


----------



## cityplumbing

Widdershins said:


> I think it's high time you reacquainted yourself with what you should already know.


I do everyday..


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> Good talk by the way champ...


 Just wait until you catch me on a day when I've been drinking.:laughing:


----------



## cityplumbing

Widdershins said:


> Just wait until you catch me on a day when I've been drinking.:laughing:


 
I see why you need to drink..:wacko:


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> I do everyday..


 I hope so.

So many of us fall down on the revisions we never saw coming.

I got nailed on a 2003 revision this week that up until now was never enforced.

All of a sudden I have to add 2 grand into every budget if a bathtub is being installed.

I'm fine with that -- It just would have been nice to know before I sent out a dozen budgets/bids last week.


----------



## HOMER

Widdershins said:


> I hope so.
> 
> So many of us fall down on the revisions we never saw coming.
> 
> I got nailed on a 2003 revision this week that up until now was never enforced.
> 
> All of a sudden I have to add 2 grand into every budget if a bathtub is being installed.
> 
> I'm fine with that -- It just would have been nice to know before I sent out a dozen budgets/bids last week.


which revision are you refering to please ? (notice I said please)


----------



## Widdershins

HOMER said:


> which revision are you refering to please ? (notice I said please)


 Tempering valves not to exceed 120 degrees have been required on all bathtub installations since 2003.

The revision was never formally adopted until they settled on a device.

They finally settled on one and now all bets are off.


----------



## Widdershins

Full disclosure here.

I apologize for calling CityPlumber a hack.

He's still a bit suspect in my book. (He's Southern, for crying out loud) But he isn't a hack.


----------



## cityplumbing

Widdershins said:


> Full disclosure here.
> 
> I apologize for calling CityPlumber a hack.
> 
> He's still a bit suspect in my book. (He's Southern, for crying out loud) But he isn't a hack.


 
:laughing: At least it's a start..:thumbup:


----------



## U666A

cityplumbing said:


> :laughing: At least it's a start..:thumbup:


It's more than any of us thought you'd get..

:laughing:


----------



## Widdershins

U666A said:


> It's more than any of us thought you'd get..
> 
> :laughing:


 I'm much, much kinder on the nights where I choose to battle the DT's stone cold sober.

3 nights on, 3 nights off.

Gawd help you if you catch my eye somewhere in between.:laughing:


----------



## cityplumbing

Widdershins said:


> I'm much, much kinder on the nights where I choose to battle the DT's stone cold sober.
> 
> 3 nights on, 3 nights off.
> 
> Gawd help you if you catch my eye somewhere in between.:laughing:


 
What's DT's??


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> What's DT's??


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium_tremens


----------



## U666A

Widdershins said:


> I'm much, much kinder on the nights where I choose to battle the DT's stone cold sober.
> 
> 3 nights on, 3 nights off.
> 
> Gawd help you if you catch my eye somewhere in between.:laughing:


I know, I know... All I ever hear about is "Gawd help you if..." and "hand your arse to you..."

What does any of that mean on an Internet forum anyway...??? :laughing:


----------



## cityplumbing

Widdershins said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium_tremens


 
:laughing::thumbup:


----------



## PlumbPowerHouse

The way you had it with the center outlet, is actually better than an end outlet drain. I have no idea why an inspector would call you on this. Looks good to me.


----------



## nhmaster3015

I came in a little late on this one and naturally couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread but............ Picture #1 is showing me a full S trap so in my book it don't pass. Picture #2 looks like something a homeowner would do and now it has not one but 2 S traps.


----------



## cityplumbing

nhmaster3015 said:


> I came in a little late on this one and naturally couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread but............ Picture #1 is showing me a full S trap so in my book it don't pass. Picture #2 looks like something a homeowner would do and now it has not one but 2 S traps.


 Naturally you couldn't be bothered...Explain to me why they are s-traps? Just for Shiots and giggles..


----------



## nhmaster3015

On further inspection only one is an S trap.

Now you tell ME which one :laughing:


----------



## cityplumbing

nhmaster3015 said:


> On further inspection only one is an S trap.
> 
> Now you tell ME which one :laughing:


I don't see any S-trap. That's why i'm asking for you to point it out for me. I only see P-traps..


----------



## RealLivePlumber

Your code book will tell you which one is an s trap.


----------



## cityplumbing

RealLivePlumber said:


> Your code book will tell you which one is an s trap.


 
Guess we all see things differently.. Can you define a S-trap for me. Since I can't see it here..


----------



## gitnerdun

I see no s trap. Studor vent takes care of that.

Point it out please.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Oh come on. You guys are plumbers with licenses and you can't tell me why the bottom trap is an S trap? Really? Freeking REALLY? 

Consider the electrical trades :laughing:


----------



## gitnerdun

2 tees stacked with a vent on top? Do it with a laundry tray and wash machine all day long. What is the diff?


----------



## cityplumbing

The bottom trap is being vented so how is it an s-trap.


----------



## gitnerdun

nhmaster3015 said:


> Oh come on. You guys are plumbers with licenses and you can't tell me why the bottom trap is an S trap? Really? Freeking REALLY?
> 
> Consider the electrical trades :laughing:


 
Come on genius, I gotta get to work soon. tick tock!:whistling2:


----------



## cityplumbing

nhmaster3015 said:


> Oh come on. You guys are plumbers with licenses and you can't tell me why the bottom trap is an S trap? Really? Freeking REALLY?
> 
> Consider the electrical trades :laughing:


Explain to me why then. Your the teacher..


----------



## nhmaster3015

I'll chuck the rock at both birds.


The bottom trap is what's called a crown vented S trap. Remember that 2 x the pipe diameter thing?

Now, if the top trap/sink is draining where is the vent for the bottom trap if both are dumping at the same time?

Plumbing 101 fella's


----------



## RealLivePlumber

nhmaster3015 said:


> Remember that 2 x the pipe diameter thing?
> 
> 
> Plumbing 101 fella's


 
:yes:


----------



## cityplumbing

nhmaster3015 said:


> I'll chuck the rock at both birds.
> 
> 
> The bottom trap is what's called a crown vented S trap. Remember that 2 x the pipe diameter thing? Yea, well let me first start of by saying that the bottom trap's vent is 5 inches from the trap weir but if it was 4 inches it would still be right no?:whistling2:
> 
> Now, if the top trap/sink is draining where is the vent for the bottom trap if both are dumping at the same time? Well if the left sink drains at a DFU of 2 and the right sink drains at a rate of 2 DFU then the Common Vent according to the IPC will be able to handle the load...
> 
> Plumbing 101 fella's


 







*908.3 Connection at different levels.* Where the fixture drains connect at different levels, the vent shall connect as a vertical extension of the vertical drain. The vertical drain pipe connecting the two fixture drains shall be considered the vent for the lower fixture drain, and shall be sized in accordance with Table 908.3. The upper fixture shall not be a water closet. 

*TABLE 908.3 COMMON VENT SIZES* 

*PIPE SIZE*
*(inches) **MAXIMUM DISCHARGE FROM UPPER FIXTURE DRAIN (dfu) *
PIPE Size,,,,, DFU
1-1/2",,,,,,,,,,,,1 
2" ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,4 
2-1/2" to 3",,,, 6


----------



## nhmaster3015

Ahhhhhhhhh...............................no but it's honestly not worth my time to explain any of this mostly because I have a feeling that it would make no difference anyway so keep on doing whatever you are doing and maybe you can find a blind ignorant inspector to sign it all off :whistling2:


----------



## Widdershins

nhmaster3015 said:


> Ahhhhhhhhh...............................no but it's honestly not worth my time to explain any of this mostly because I have a feeling that it would make no difference anyway so keep on doing whatever you are doing and maybe you can find a blind ignorant inspector to sign it all off :whistling2:


 I tried that route last week and ended up having to apologize.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Yea Widd I finally read through the whole thing...uggggg. Sad thing is that most of my 1st year apprentices were able to spot the situation in a few seconds. It's surprising how many licensed plumbers there are that lack an understanding of basic traps and venting.


----------



## cityplumbing

nhmaster3015 said:


> Yea Widd I finally read through the whole thing...uggggg. Sad thing is that most of my 1st year apprentices were able to spot the situation in a few seconds. It's surprising how many licensed plumbers there are that lack an understanding of basic traps and venting.


What I don't understand is how people say things and can't back them up.. First it's center outlet continuos waste then s-traps then crown venting..


----------



## Widdershins

nhmaster3015 said:


> Yea Widd I finally read through the whole thing...uggggg. Sad thing is that most of my 1st year apprentices were able to spot the situation in a few seconds. It's surprising how many licensed plumbers there are that lack an understanding of basic traps and venting.


 I apologized to keep the peace.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


----------



## cityplumbing

Widdershins said:


> I apologized to keep the peace.
> 
> That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


Are you serious? You apologize to keep the peace..Thank you!!! And I thought you were sincere...


----------



## nhmaster3015

Well I ain't apologizing for knowing what a crown vented S trap looks like :laughing: And when you get right down to it... what's it really matter? It ain't my sink and it ain't me arguing with the inspector.

We could settle it with poll though: 

All those that think the bottom trap is NOT a crown vented S trap say Aye


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> What I don't understand is how people say things and can't back them up.. First it's center outlet continuos waste then s-traps then crown venting..


 I think the issue for me is that you had a number of different options.

You chose the easiest route.

It worked and got you signed off -- The route you chose wasn't even in my top ten.

Bygones.


----------



## cityplumbing

nhmaster3015 said:


> Well I ain't apologizing for knowing what a crown vented S trap looks like :laughing: And when you get right down to it... what's it really matter? It ain't my sink and it ain't me arguing with the inspector.


Well I'm going to argue with people that just pull things out of thin air and bash a thread I started... You better check your glasses?:laughing:


----------



## cityplumbing

Widdershins said:


> I think the issue for me is that you had a number of different options.
> 
> You chose the easiest route.
> 
> It worked and got you signed off -- The route you chose wasn't even in my top ten.
> 
> Bygones.


The way you talk I'm staying away from your top ten.. 

Bygones.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Sir, I never pull things out of the air. Besides teaching I am also a state licensed, licence recertification seminar provider and was a state inspector for many years. Im telling you flat out that what you have there is a crown vented S trap. Check your code book under prohibited traps. In fact, if you have a copy of the code with commentary, take a few minutes to read the entire section under traps and then get back to us.


----------



## cityplumbing

*906.3 Crown vent.* A vent shall not be installed within two pipe diameters of the trap weir.


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> The way you talk I'm staying away from your top ten..
> 
> Bygones.


 Prolly for the best.


----------



## cityplumbing

nhmaster3015 said:


> Sir, I never pull things out of the air. Besides teaching I am also a state licensed, licence recertification seminar provider and was a state inspector for many years. Im telling you flat out that what you have there is a crown vented S trap. Check your code book under prohibited traps. In fact, if you have a copy of the code with commentary, take a few minutes to read the entire section under traps and then get back to us.


 
Take your glasses out? And look at the picture and inspect where the Crown weir is and the vent starts... Now, is it double the pipe diameter?


----------



## nhmaster3015

I'm beginning to feel your pain Widd :bangin::bangin:

No, it's perfect. Nice job. Super, couldn't have done it better myself :blink:


----------



## Moscow

this thread is the reason why plumbing inspectors should have to go through the apprenticeship for 4 years test to be a journymen pass the test then work as a journymen for 2 years before they can even take the inspectors test. that is the way I had to do it to be an inspector here and I have no problems with the contractors when I call out a correction because they now I am not pulling it out of my rear end.


----------



## cityplumbing

Yet, no answer from the teacher?? I still haven't heard why you say it's a S-trap and why that's a crown vent also.. Or wait you changed it to a crown vented s-trap...:wallbash:


----------



## nhmaster3015

I gave you my answer but it is pretty apparent that you lack the basic understanding to carry on a reasonable argument and it is not my job to teach basic plumbing concepts to licensed plumbers. But, I'll make an exception because I have the feeling that you don't understand what the trap weir is and where it starts and ends. Take a look at the bottom diagram on the left.


----------



## plumb nutz

Flip a coin its close...

But, the trap is 1 1/4 so the distance has to be greater than 2 1/2... Looks close enough...

Additionally, the drain increases from 1 1/4 to 1 1/2, increasing the volume of air...

Not a crown, not and "s", not this time...


----------



## cityplumbing

nhmaster3015 said:


> I gave you my answer but it is pretty apparent that you lack the basic understanding to carry on a reasonable argument and it is not my job to teach basic plumbing concepts to licensed plumbers. But, I'll make an exception because I have the feeling that you don't understand what the trap weir is and where it starts and ends. Take a look at the bottom diagram on the left.


I don't need a your diagrams. YOU need to review it...Now that you know where the weir is show me where the vent starts?


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> Yet, no answer from the teacher?? I still haven't heard why you say it's a S-trap and why that's a crown vent also.. Or wait you changed it to a crown vented s-trap...:wallbash:


Look, technicalities aside, you could have done this in such a way as to avoid the additional offsets in the trap arm.

You opted not to do that -- Fine. You got it signed off.

It's all too easy for someone like me to sit back and quibble over twenty bucks in parts and two or three hours of your time. -- Twenty bucks is chump change to me, as is two or three hours of labor.

I don't know you well enough to judge you and your bottom line. That twenty bucks in materials and two or three hours in additional labor just might be your break-even point -- Hell, it might be the difference between making a dime or spending a buck.

I'm not judging you -- I'm merely pointing out that you had other options.


----------



## Redwood

We talked about Crown Vents in another thread recently...

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f21/i-am-so-out-practice-14341/index5/#post194119


----------



## nhmaster3015

Enough, I give up. Not worth the effort. This is reminding me way too much of similar circular arguments. Like I said, It's perfect, a thing of rare beauty. Run with it and be happy :thumbsup:


----------



## cityplumbing

Widdershins said:


> Look, technicalities aside, you could have done this in such a way as to avoid the additional offsets in the trap arm.
> 
> You opted not to do that -- Fine. You got it signed off.
> 
> It's all too easy for someone like me to sit back and quibble over twenty bucks in parts and two or three hours of your time. -- Twenty bucks is chump change to me, as is two or three hours of labor.
> 
> I don't know you well enough to judge you and your bottom line. That twenty bucks in materials and two or three hours in additional labor just might be your break-even point -- Hell, it might be the difference between making a dime or spending a buck.
> 
> I'm not judging you -- I'm merely pointing out that you had other options.


 
I know, I had options.. But it's all about technicalities. I trust what I install because I stay within the code.. And I know you old timers don't agree with it but that's your decisions. So don't knock me for my decisions I have my reasons for them.. And if your going to say things like s-traps, crown venting, continuous waste and crown vented s-traps you should state some facts to back up your arguments instead of dancing around my responses..


----------



## cityplumbing

nhmaster3015 said:


> Enough, I give up. Not worth the effort. This is reminding me way too much of similar circular arguments. Like I said, It's perfect, a thing of rare beauty. Run with it and be happy :thumbsup:


No! Don't open your mouth knock my work and then decide to opt out when you can't state facts..


----------



## Widdershins

cityplumbing said:


> I know, I had options.. But it's all about technicalities. I trust what I install because I stay within the code.. And I know you old timers don't agree with it but that's your decisions. So don't knock me for my decisions I have my reasons for them.. And if your going to say things like s-traps, crown venting, continuous waste and crown vented s-traps you should state some facts to back up your arguments instead of dancing around my responses..


 I was showing you a rare act of kindness. Rare for me, anyway.

I would urge you to reread my most recent contributions before jumping to conclusions.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Arguing with you is pointless and that's why I am going to opt out. You are apparently happy, the inspector is happy and when you get right down to it, that's all that matters. If you want my blessings also you are going to have to send a check in the amount of $ 150.00


----------



## Airgap

First glance it looks like an s-trap to me....

Can't be sure though looking at pics on a laptop...

Yes, I've done pretty much the same thing, and will probably do it again...

Pics can take some serious abuse on da zone....I'm glad they don't have feelings....


----------



## cityplumbing

nhmaster3015 said:


> Arguing with you is pointless and that's why I am going to opt out. You are apparently happy, the inspector is happy and when you get right down to it, that's all that matters. If you want my blessings also you are going to have to send a check in the amount of $ 150.00


 
I don't want your blessing. I just want you to keep your S-trap shut next time you decide to knock my work and don't back up your facts....


----------



## Bill

Play NICE


----------



## Widdershins

Airgap said:


> Yes, I've done pretty much the same thing, and will probably do it again...


 Sometimes you just have to suck it up and give the Inspector what they want.

It's a game, one I'm willing to play within certain parameters.

Under five hundred bucks and I'll play along -- Anything over and the claws come out.


----------



## cityplumbing

I play the game and have my limits...


----------



## nhmaster3015

I did, you don't understand.


----------



## cityplumbing

nhmaster3015 said:


> I did, you don't understand. Case closed


You didn't case closed....:laughing:


----------



## nhmaster3015

gitnerdun said:


> I see no s trap. Studor vent takes care of that.
> 
> Point it out please.


Take a lgood look at the picture. What shape is that whole mess? You want to know what the real problem is? It's that whoever roughed in the drain in the first place, roughed it in 6 inches too low and did not offset it and now short of cutting the wall open ANYTHING is going to be a mess. If the drain had been properly roughed then a end outlet waste could have been used. If the drain had been roughed right then an AAV would not have to be involved in the whole mess. If this is new construction and I was the homeowner there is no way I would accept that cluster F under my sink, if for no other reason than the spray hose will catch on it every damn time and you loose a third of the cabinet space.

Which doesn't belong and why :laughing:


----------



## SlickRick

Your showing a wet vent, but not a "S" trap. The OP's picture is not a "S" trap, just a wet vent.

Had the drain arm been offset vertically, then had the trap attached, it would have been a "S"trap.


----------



## nhmaster3015

Maybe, it's hard to tell without being there with a tape measure but just looking at the picture it's awful close. Yes to the wet vent although there was some convoluted explanation a few posts back that elluded to it being a stack vent but neither can be used for a kitchen sink in that particular configuration. Again, had the rough been right the whole problem would have gone away. When I was inspecting I ran into this same thing time after time and I am humble enough to admit that I have screwed up the rough a few times myself but I always corrected it in the wall. What is there will work, after all crap does flow down hill but that whole mess is a clog waiting to happen. I suppose that for the drain cleaning guys that would be a good thing though I would sure as hell hate the thought of running a cable down that :thumbsup:

Nobody likes to have their work criticized but sometimes that's the only way that we improve. Whether or not it passes code is one thing, but when most of the plumbers here have negative comments it would probably be a good idea to reconsider ones work. Personally, knowing you guys, had I done that nobody would ever have seen that picture :laughing:


----------



## cityplumbing

nhmaster3015 said:


> Maybe, it's hard to tell without being there with a tape measure but just looking at the picture it's awful close. Yes to the wet vent although there was some convoluted explanation a few posts back that elluded to it being a stack vent but neither can be used for a kitchen sink in that particular configuration. Again, had the rough been right the whole problem would have gone away. When I was inspecting I ran into this same thing time after time and I am humble enough to admit that I have screwed up the rough a few times myself but I always corrected it in the wall. What is there will work, after all crap does flow down hill but that whole mess is a clog waiting to happen. I suppose that for the drain cleaning guys that would be a good thing though I would sure as hell hate the thought of running a cable down that :thumbsup:
> 
> Nobody likes to have their work criticized but sometimes that's the only way that we improve. Whether or not it passes code is one thing, but when most of the plumbers here have negative comments it would probably be a good idea to reconsider ones work. Personally, knowing you guys, had I done that nobody would ever have seen that picture :laughing:


I don't agree with you at all as you can tell and there's others who would agree with me. It just so happens that the ones who disagree with me are quick to bash my work and the loudest. Oh well can't please them all. I don't see a stoppage waiting to happen because of the piping arrangement. I don't have an issue with AAV's. I see a "common venting" arrangement here. It's a wet vent between the two San tees but it falls under common venting.. I know the distance from the crown weir and the vent is over 2 pipe diameters that is as clear as day and there's no reason why that would be called a s-trap because it doesn't have the same characteristics as one. Just because you think it's not the cleanest doesn't matter. I follow the code and I trust in. I did the rough and AAV's are common in my area and a center outlet waste works just the same as the end outlet.


----------



## cityplumbing

nhmaster3015 said:


> Take a lgood look at the picture. What shape is that whole mess? You want to know what the real problem is? It's that whoever roughed in the drain in the first place, roughed it in 6 inches too low and did not offset it and now short of cutting the wall open ANYTHING is going to be a mess. If the drain had been properly roughed then a end outlet waste could have been used. If the drain had been roughed right then an AAV would not have to be involved in the whole mess. If this is new construction and I was the homeowner there is no way I would accept that cluster F under my sink, if for no other reason than the spray hose will catch on it every damn time and you loose a third of the cabinet space.
> 
> Which doesn't belong and why :laughing:


If you read the threads you would understand that the inspector wanted two traps and no continuos waste that includes end outlets so that's why the thread was started..He wanted two traps and gave me an hour to repipe it. That's how we got the two stacked san tee's..It was passed when he returned..:whistling2:


----------



## cityplumbing

nhmaster3015 said:


> Take a lgood look at the picture.
> 
> Which doesn't belong and why :laughing:


 
It's funny how you tried to make the san tee on the bottom to look like a wye to prove your point..:laughing:
Notice the picture below and how the s-trap's outlet points down..


----------



## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

Unfortunately it is definitely an s trap just follow the flow of water but if you worked for me and you made the inspector happy I would slap you on the back and say great job (which is what it was)


----------



## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

Also looks like it was always an s trap situation before and after


----------



## cityplumbing

Ok, I see it as not being an s trap but your in titled to your opinion...


----------



## gitnerdun

You guys are really splitting hairs here. Legal is legal. Yes, it looks like crap. Yes, there will be some stink comin' outa that sink. But it is not an s trap. 

I think the OP did what he had to do in the hour he had to maybe avoid a reinspection fee. I bet the next one will be different and there won't be any pics for us to criticize.

That said I may soon provide some pics of some recent work as a distraction so that City may get out of the crosshairs for a while, after all it is Friday. Who's in for a boatride over to the tiki bar? Annie's there servin' 'em up every Fri.

Anybody?


----------



## nhmaster3015

My god Marty its.....Beautiful :laughing:

Not just saying this but if any of my guys did that and I saw it, they would be looking for employment elsewhere.

It comes as no suprise to me that you have no problem with AAV's Should put em everywhere, on every fixture, to hell with the roof vent


----------



## Widdershins

nhmaster3015 said:


> My god Marty its.....Beautiful :laughing:
> 
> Not just saying this but if any of my guys did that and I saw it, they would be looking for employment elsewhere.
> 
> It comes as no suprise to me that you have no problem with AAV's Should put em everywhere, on every fixture, to hell with the roof vent


 I would have never let any of my guys get away with this either.

Still, there is one mitigating factor everyone who knocks this should consider; The Inspector gave City one hour to make it passable.

I'm not exactly pleased with the outcome, but I do understand what it's like to be under the gun and have to bang something out under pressure.

If it had been me, I would have taken the time to do it correctly and eaten the re-inspection fee. But that's me. I can afford to do that.

Without knowing City's bottom line/ break even point but knowing the time constraints he was working under, I think it's unfair to judge him for this one installation.


----------



## cityplumbing

nhmaster3015 said:


> My god Marty its.....Beautiful :laughing:
> 
> Not just saying this but if any of my guys did that and I saw it, they would be looking for employment elsewhere.
> 
> It comes as no suprise to me that you have no problem with AAV's Should put em everywhere, on every fixture, to hell with the roof vent


I never said to hell with the roof vent but take this example for instance this was a job that had two rooms removed on the house and the kitchen was moved to this location. The wall that the rough is in was the entrance to one of the rooms that were demolished. The house has concrete walls and there's 6in wood studs installed where the entrance once was there's a window directly above the kitchen sink and above the window running the whole wall is a 8 by 12 concrete header that's there to support the roof when the old room was in. The stack is on the far right going through the roof. Installing an AAV was justified.. Yea there's ways to bring the vent to the stack but it would involve a sofit to hide the piping and would I have got the job if I bid for it that way NO definitely not. I don't have the luxury to turn down or loose work because I'm set in my ways. I embrace new plumbing practices...:thumbsup:


----------



## Tommy plumber

cityplumbing said:


> I never said to hell with the roof vent but take this example for instance this was a job that had two rooms removed on the house and the kitchen was moved to this location. The wall that the rough is in was the entrance to one of the rooms that were demolished. The house has concrete walls and there's 6in wood studs installed where the entrance once was there's a window directly above the kitchen sink and above the window running the whole wall is a 8 by 12 concrete header that's there to support the roof when the old room was in. The stack is on the far right going through the roof. Installing an AAV was justified.. Yea there's ways to bring the vent to the stack but it would involve a sofit to hide the piping and would I have got the job if I bid for it that way NO definitely not. I don't have the luxury to turn down or loose work because I'm set in my ways. I embrace new plumbing practices...:thumbsup:


 




Agreed. Would you rather install a vent through the roof? Yes. But if the other plumbers bidding on the job are going to install an AAV and bid alot less than you, all the talking to the customer about how wonderful a VTR is, and extolling the virtues of a VTR doesn't mean a hill of beans when your bid is $ 2000.00 higher than everyone else's. The HO may not even know what the hell you're talking about. The HO may tell their neighbors that you were trying to overcharge him. Especially if all the other plumbers throw you under the bus by saying a VTR isn't necessary.

You gotta do what you gotta do sometimes to get the job. (Ethically and legally of course).


----------



## nhmaster3015

One of the biggest problems we have today is that we have been conditioned to accept mediocre. We lower the schoolastic standards and then pat our kids on the head when they achieve them. We expect our politicians to be corrupt and innefective. Hell 1/2 the country truely believes that Applebee's is fine dining. Not only do we accept mediocre we commend and defend it. I will never defend mediocre. I have sent my boys to the Skills Nationals 3 out of the past 4 years and they didn't get there by me accepting crap work. I expect nothing less than perfect all the time and believe me, perfect can be achieved. The way I see it there are two options. Either defend sub standard work and get pissed at guys like me that WILL point it out or step up and become the plumber that you were trained to be. Anyone in this trade just for the money should do the rest of us a favor and get out of the PROFESSION.

Did I hurt anyone's feelings? If so, well honestly, I am not sorry. We all need to raise the standard and hold each other accountable for the good of the trade.

And don't EVER tell me that you have to lower your standards in order to be competitive. If you really, REALLY believe that then you need ot PM me and I will show you how you can double your income by becoming the most expensive plumber in town, not the cheapest.


----------



## Redwood

nhmaster3015 said:


> One of the biggest problems we have today is that we have been conditioned to accept mediocre. We lower the schoolastic standards and then pat our kids on the head when they achieve them. We expect our politicians to be corrupt and innefective. Hell 1/2 the country truely believes that Applebee's is fine dining. Not only do we accept mediocre we commend and defend it. I will never defend mediocre. I have sent my boys to the Skills Nationals 3 out of the past 4 years and they didn't get there by me accepting crap work. I expect nothing less than perfect all the time and believe me, perfect can be achieved. The way I see it there are two options. Either defend sub standard work and get pissed at guys like me that WILL point it out or step up and become the plumber that you were trained to be. Anyone in this trade just for the money should do the rest of us a favor and get out of the PROFESSION.
> 
> Did I hurt anyone's feelings? If so, well honestly, I am not sorry. We all need to raise the standard and hold each other accountable for the good of the trade.
> 
> And don't EVER tell me that you have to lower your standards in order to be competitive. If you really, REALLY believe that then you need ot PM me and I will show you how you can double your income by becoming the most expensive plumber in town, not the cheapest.


Damn!


----------



## cityplumbing

nhmaster3015 said:


> One of the biggest problems we have today is that we have been conditioned to accept mediocre. We lower the schoolastic standards and then pat our kids on the head when they achieve them. We expect our politicians to be corrupt and innefective. Hell 1/2 the country truely believes that Applebee's is fine dining. Not only do we accept mediocre we commend and defend it. I will never defend mediocre. I have sent my boys to the Skills Nationals 3 out of the past 4 years and they didn't get there by me accepting crap work. I expect nothing less than perfect all the time and believe me, perfect can be achieved. The way I see it there are two options. Either defend sub standard work and get pissed at guys like me that WILL point it out or step up and become the plumber that you were trained to be. Anyone in this trade just for the money should do the rest of us a favor and get out of the PROFESSION.
> 
> Did I hurt anyone's feelings? If so, well honestly, I am not sorry. We all need to raise the standard and hold each other accountable for the good of the trade.
> 
> And don't EVER tell me that you have to lower your standards in order to be competitive. If you really, REALLY believe that then you need ot PM me and I will show you how you can double your income by becoming the most expensive plumber in town, not the cheapest.


Save that speech for the plumbing company that's well established. It's just not my reality. I CAN'T walk away from a job because I have higher standards. I can't afford to because I have a family that counts on me. I'm a one man shop. I haven't worked yet this month. I got money I'm waiting on that's going to come in drips and drabs. So trying to be the heroic plumber is just being juvenile to me. I got priorities and I have to eat bottom line.... 

Yes, I'm in business for money. But that doesn't mean that I don't have pride in my company and my profession.. It's not lowering my standards it's being competitive and creative while following the code.

Of course I'm going to defend myself when your attacking me I just see you as someone set in there ways that's well established that can afford to raise there prices to be the highest in there town without the fear of loosing half your customers. Your the type of guy that has a lot because you earned it and probably worked hard for it.:clap:
So when you see the type of work that utilizes materials while lowering material and labor costs you can't help but to lash out on the person who performed the work in hopes of preserving your old school ways.. But your wrong. I'm not the problem. I'm just trying to survive take it up with the IPC. Your just set in your ways. If you got such concerns with the code then fight to change it and if you can't then don't bash the people who utilize it..


----------



## gitnerdun

cityplumbing said:


> Of course I'm going to defend myself when your attacking me I just see you as someone set in there ways that's well established that can afford to raise there prices to be the highest in there town without the fear of loosing half your customers..


 
That is exactly the point. I like to not be the cheapest plumber. It seems to me that if you are the cheapest you are going to have to bust your azz a lot more than if you raise your rates enough to slow it down a bit. Keep your standards high, build a reputation on that.


I want you all to know just how disappointing it was having to go to the tiki bar as the only plumber. I will remember that next time!


----------



## cityplumbing

I think when you first start out with a new company charging double the average rates compaired to a larger well esablished company in your area is just bad business and you should just save yourself some time and close the company.

When you own a new business you have to charge a competitive rate in order to establish trust. You want a customer to call you back because your going to make more money in the long run. I don't mind having a customer for life. I feel good knowing I might have just helped someone out that wasn't expecting to have a plumbing problem..


----------



## nhmaster3015

So you really believe that starting out, the best way to establish yourself and your company is to sink to the level of the lowest common denominator? 

You have a choice. You can be one of the many small fish in the pond all fighting for a share of the price shoppers or you can provice uncompromising service and quality at a price that is fair and profitable.

I have 13 service technicians, 4 office personel. we do over a mil a year in gross sales. We have been in business for over 60 years now started by my dad back in the 50's. We have been through boom times and very hard times. My dad did not ever allow 2nd rate work, nor did he ever lower his standards to be competitive. Neither have I and now that my brother runs the company, neither does he. That's how you build your company and your reputation. You don't swim with the little fish. It's not the materials that are the real issue and here's why. If AAV's had never been invented or they were not allowed you would have found a way to run a vent. Sure it would have cost more than Joe Schmuck's bid but that's where your ability to sell the customer SUPERIOR workmanship comes in. Too many plumbers are not salesmen and being a salesman is a huge part of owning a business. Unfortunately you can not just plumb. I guarantee you that until you learn to sell yourself and your company you will never be any more than a small fish in a big pond.

The hard truth is that what you did there may work and it did pass inspection but I doubt very much that you would want that job held up as an expample of your best work. Now you have work out there that has your name on it. Anybody looking under that cabinet is going to see it and wonder "who in hell did this" How can a business be built on that? And how much more work of that quality have you let go in the past and will let go in the future? I know I'm busting your balls but it's because damn it we are plumbers and we have a responsibility to our customers and our families and you need to and can rise above the rest. Then you can be a hard assed old ******* like me.


----------



## plbgbiz

gitnerdun said:


> ...I want you all to know just how disappointing it was having to go to the tiki bar as the only plumber. I will remember that next time!


Now you know how I feel when nobody shows up for coffee.


----------



## plbgbiz

My dear friend Cityplumber,

I believe you are missing the point of the.....shall we say, less than cozy responses from NH and Mr. Shins.

Your inspector did not create this problem.

As old as plumbing codes themselves, is the principle that_ "Not All Codes are Good Plumbing and Not All Good Plumbing is To Code"_. So rather than quoting chapter and verse of the IPC, think about whether or not it is good plumbing. And stop wining about the supposed attacks. After all, this is the Zone and nobody's happy if somebody ain't pissed.:jester:

There are several things unsettling about your one hour "fix":
1. Don't compare the drainage of a single lav to a full kitchen sink as justification for an unneeded 90deg obstruction prior to the trap.
2. K/S drainage is not under pressure so the more intricate the piping, the harder it is for the water (and food) to flow downstream.
3. You added an extra slip joint connection.
4. Trap should have been moved closer to the left sink to eliminate risk of more smelly build up in the waste arm.
5. Even though you had to do a quick patch for the inspector, that didn't prevent you from going back at another time to provide a better solution that was better plumbing and actually exceeded the code. The code is only the minimum standard.

So this was a sink with no access to a wall and no reasonable VTR option? You're not the first guy that ran into this. At the rough in stage, did you not have room for any of the options in the photos below? These photos are not my work, they're just from around the net. Don't blame the inspector for what should have been allowed for in the rough-in.


----------



## Redwood

Ahhh this is some plumbing I like if the combo waste isn't allowed....


----------



## Widdershins

Redwood said:


> Ahhh this is some plumbing I like if the combo waste isn't allowed....


 That's pretty much the way I do it.

One arm picks up a two compartment sink with an end outlet continuous waste and the other arm gets a schedule 40 trap to pick up the dishwasher.


----------



## cityplumbing

plbgbiz said:


> My dear friend Cityplumber,
> 
> I believe you are missing the point of the.....shall we say, less than cozy responses from NH and Mr. Shins.
> 
> Your inspector did not create this problem. Yes he did by telling me that a continuous waste is not accepted by HIM and HE wants two traps..
> 
> As old as plumbing codes themselves, is the principle that_ "Not All Codes are Good Plumbing and Not All Good Plumbing is To Code"_. So rather than quoting chapter and verse of the IPC, think about whether or not it is good plumbing. I'd rather quote the minimum accepted code when someone argues that an arrangements not allowed.. And stop wining about the supposed attacks. Not wining I'm defending myself..After all, this is the Zone and nobody's happy if somebody ain't pissed.This I can agree with..:jester:
> 
> There are several things unsettling about your one hour "fix":
> 1. Don't compare the drainage of a single lav to a full kitchen sink as justification for an unneeded 90deg obstruction prior to the trap.I wouldn't compare a lav to a kitchen sink. I know they drain at different rates 90's are accepted at any direction at 2in.
> 2. K/S drainage is not under pressure so the more intricate the piping, the harder it is for the water (and food) to flow downstream.This is true..
> 3. You added an extra slip joint connection. No, I just removed the tubular tee and installed a tubular elbow..
> 4. Trap should have been moved closer to the left sink to eliminate risk of more smelly build up in the waste arm. Could have aimed it closer but now your being really picky..
> 5. Even though you had to do a quick patch for the inspector, that didn't prevent you from going back at another time to provide a better solution that was better plumbing and actually exceeded the code. The code is only the minimum standard. I know it's minimum standards. I don't think it's a problem so no need to go back. It's not my first choice..
> 
> So this was a sink with no access to a wall and no reasonable VTR option? You're not the first guy that ran into this. At the rough in stage, did you not have room for any of the options in the photos below? In Fl we don't have basements so the floor was a concrete slab..A soffit would have been a better option for the homeowner..These photos are not my work, they're just from around the net. Don't blame the inspector for what should have been allowed for in the rough-in.


Thanks for the response though...:thumbup:


----------



## cityplumbing

nhmaster3015 said:


> So you really believe that starting out, the best way to establish yourself and your company is to sink to the level of the lowest common denominator? I never said lowest. I do think you need to be competitive.
> 
> You have a choice. You can be one of the many small fish in the pond all fighting for a share of the price shoppers or you can provice uncompromising service and quality at a price that is fair and profitable.This isn't 2004.. When I reach a certain point things will evolve from where I am now..
> 
> I have 13 service technicians, 4 office personel. we do over a mil a year in gross sales. We have been in business for over 60 years now started by my dad back in the 50's. I do respect that.. We have been through boom times and very hard times. My dad did not ever allow 2nd rate work, nor did he ever lower his standards to be competitive. Different times back then.. Neither have I and now that my brother runs the company, neither does he. Your well established that's great.. That's how you build your company and your reputation. No, that's your situation not mine..Your not starting a business in Florida. You don't swim with the little fish. It's not the materials that are the real issue and here's why. If AAV's had never been invented or they were not allowed you would have found a way to run a vent. This is true. I never used an AAV until I moved here to FL my experience is mainly out of NY. When 80% to 90% of homes in your area have them installed there's not much of a choice. Sure it would have cost more than Joe Schmuck's bid but that's where your ability to sell the customer SUPERIOR workmanship comes in.:laughing: you want to come here and sell to these people there's handy men all over this state that are under bidding plumbers. Too many plumbers are not salesmen and being a salesman is a huge part of owning a business. This is true. Unfortunately you can not just plumb. I guarantee you that until you learn to sell yourself and your company you will never be any more than a small fish in a big pond. I agree totally with you here..
> 
> The hard truth is that what you did there may work and it did pass inspection but I doubt very much that you would want that job held up as an example of your best work. No I wouldn't. Now you have work out there that has your name on it. Anybody looking under that cabinet is going to see it and wonder "who in hell did this" How can a business be built on that? And how much more work of that quality have you let go in the past and will let go in the future? I know I'm busting your balls but it's because damn it we are plumbers and we have a responsibility to our customers and our families and you need to and can rise above the rest. You make some reasonable points..Then you can be a hard assed old ******* like me. Someday I will be.


I don't agree with a lot of what your saying and I don't think your agreeing with anything I'm saying but if you took into account all the variables in this situation the bottom line is that it is what it is.


----------



## Bill

How are yall getting away with a double wey? We cant. It has to be a cross tee. The double wey if you look into the end of it is being blocked from the riser, in other words a "S" trap by the inspectors here.


----------



## Redwood

Bill said:


> How are yall getting away with a double wey? We cant. It has to be a cross tee. The double wey if you look into the end of it is being blocked from the riser, in other words a "S" trap by the inspectors here.


It's a double fixture fitting...

See this post earlier....


----------



## plbgbiz

cityplumbing said:


> ....In Fl we don't have basements so the floor was a concrete slab......Thanks for the response though...:thumbup:


The point of the photos was to illustrate a rough-in option that would negate the need for an AAV, provide access to individually trap the sinks, and provide a clean out access point. All of which would have prevented the inspector from turning it down and could have been done with a minimal hole directly under the cabinet.

Would that really have put the bid out of reach on a job where rooms are being eliminated, other rooms are being built, walls being relocated, and a kitchen being moved?

Like it or not, the inspector (even if he's wrong) is only required to let you know if what you did passed or failed (and why) at the time of inspection.

It sucks that you were blindsided with this and lost some time, a bit of pride, and a few bucks but the burden of knowing ahead of time what will be expected rests squarely on the shoulders of the Plumber. It's not his fault you didn't prepare.

I'm not picking on you, just giving you my opinion. Remember, you brought it up.


----------



## nhmaster3015

What I want everyone to understand is that I don't rag on you because I like being a misereable *******, I rag on you because NOTHING would make me happier than to see each and every one of you succeed beyond your wildest dreams in this trade.

I highly recommend that anyone that is struggling to compete needs to begin attending sales and business seminars. Circling the drain is no way to survive.


----------



## cityplumbing

plbgbiz said:


> The point of the photos was to illustrate a rough-in option that would negate the need for an AAV, provide access to individually trap the sinks, and provide a clean out access point. All of which would have prevented the inspector from turning it down and could have been done with a minimal hole directly under the cabinet.
> 
> Would that really have put the bid out of reach on a job where rooms are being eliminated, other rooms are being built, walls being relocated, and a kitchen being moved? Plumbing is a seperate bid and had nothing to do with everything your saying.. Running the venting as if it were an island sink would have added 500 to 1000 to the project and it would have meant me loosing the job.
> 
> Like it or not, the inspector (even if he's wrong) is only required to let you know if what you did passed or failed (and why) at the time of inspection. Exactly that's why I had not agreed with him to begin with. He gave me know reason why he just said because that's what he wants.
> 
> It sucks that you were blindsided with this and lost some time, a bit of pride, and a few bucks but the burden of knowing ahead of time what will be expected rests squarely on the shoulders of the Plumber. It's not his fault you didn't prepare. Prepare for what? It was done right the first time. I was prepared..
> 
> I'm not picking on you, just giving you my opinion. Remember, you brought it up.


I did bring it up. I'll take it in good and bad and make the best of this thread..I'm glad I'm finding out first hand peoples direct opinions on today's practices.. I can't say it's everyones opinion though..


----------



## cityplumbing

nhmaster3015 said:


> What I want everyone to understand is that I don't rag on you because I like being a misereable *******, I rag on you because NOTHING would make me happier than to see each and every one of you succeed beyond your wildest dreams in this trade.
> 
> I highly recommend that anyone that is struggling to compete needs to begin attending sales and business seminars. Circling the drain is no way to survive.


Are you sure you don't like being a miserable ....:whistling2:

You could of approached this in a whole different way..:laughing:


----------



## nhmaster3015

Where's the fun in that? :laughing:


----------



## TPWinc

Wow, this thread is certainly a hot issue. I guess I'll put my 2 cents in... 
First off... there is no S-trap in the picture, but the lower sanitary tee does come close to, and probably is, a crown vent. Second... whoever had issue with the horional offset before the trap in the second picture. Well what do you think a continueous waste is? Third... Loop vents work and so do air admitance valves. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. Fourth... useing a double wye on the vertical will cut off the vent, useing a sanitary cross is not acceptable because there will be a dishwasher discharging into one side (see the angle stop on the left side of the picture), the double wye would work on the horizonal but it would require changing the rough.
Now we can all argue about personal preference in plumbing, but what it boils down to is code. Both arangements are legal in Florida, except for the possible crown vent. Inspector should have failed both if the distance between the trap seal and point of vent is less than 2x the size of the pipe.
As for my opinion... I personally would have done this with two traps from the begining, with an air valve and the two sanitary tees pointing towards each basket strainer. This would eliminate the crown vent, horizonal offset, and cost about the same as picture 1. However I would put the air valve as high as I could get it and I would have put an escushion on the drian (the white plastic one cost about 12 cents). I would also recommend putting a cap on the dishwasher supply because there is not a DW currently installed and that stop will get bumped and cause a flood.

Again just my two cents... Take it or leave it, but I am in agreement that the inspector was just being an a$$ and probably didn't know what he was doing. I run into them all the time down here. Your best approach is to be nice and ask him if you can pick his brain about code on another job. Make him feel important, but show him you know your code at the same time. I call it subtle intimidation or subliminal intimidation! LOL


----------



## Plumbworker

plbgbiz said:


> My dear friend Cityplumber,
> 
> I believe you are missing the point of the.....shall we say, less than cozy responses from NH and Mr. Shins.
> 
> Your inspector did not create this problem.
> 
> As old as plumbing codes themselves, is the principle that_ "Not All Codes are Good Plumbing and Not All Good Plumbing is To Code"_. So rather than quoting chapter and verse of the IPC, think about whether or not it is good plumbing. And stop wining about the supposed attacks. After all, this is the Zone and nobody's happy if somebody ain't pissed.:jester:
> 
> There are several things unsettling about your one hour "fix":
> 1. Don't compare the drainage of a single lav to a full kitchen sink as justification for an unneeded 90deg obstruction prior to the trap.
> 2. K/S drainage is not under pressure so the more intricate the piping, the harder it is for the water (and food) to flow downstream.
> 3. You added an extra slip joint connection.
> 4. Trap should have been moved closer to the left sink to eliminate risk of more smelly build up in the waste arm.
> 5. Even though you had to do a quick patch for the inspector, that didn't prevent you from going back at another time to provide a better solution that was better plumbing and actually exceeded the code. The code is only the minimum standard.
> 
> So this was a sink with no access to a wall and no reasonable VTR option? You're not the first guy that ran into this. At the rough in stage, did you not have room for any of the options in the photos below? These photos are not my work, they're just from around the net. Don't blame the inspector for what should have been allowed for in the rough-in.


 
lol that first pic of the copper loop vent thats my work from a couple of years ago i think i did share it on the forum though..


----------



## c-note

nothin like plumber humor!


----------



## panther

*Owner of RH Plumbing*



cityplumbing said:


> Before and after pics..


Yeah. The pics with the two traps look like ass!!


----------



## Mississippiplum

The inspectors in fl are horrible. One inspector will complain about something and another inspector will be fine with it

it takes a plumber to make a plumber


----------



## knowbackflow

Greetings,

Here in Charlotte, NC the Mecklenburg County Building Standards Department has what is known as the Consistency Team Meeting. This is a forum where Contractors and Inspectors meet the 3rd week of the month to review and insure that Code Interpretation is enforced the same in all Inspector territories.

You can find out more about here: http://charmeck.org/mecklenburg/county/CodeEnforcement/Resources/Pages/Consistency.aspx

I would suggest you pass this on to the Authorities Having Jurisdiction.:thumbup:

Good luck!

"Compared to Plumbing all other forms of human endeavor shrink to insignificance"

daniel


----------



## ranman

I have been working at the intel microchip plant for a while now and the QC people make it up as they go. but they pay you to do it their way. goto love it


----------



## knowbackflow

Greetings,

Ranman.

Great pic, I'm laughing my ass off!

No one can accuse you of not getting into your work.


----------



## Hack

Man we catch alot of flack with inspectors in the town i work in most... we dont have an actual inspector so they rent one from a neighboring town. he just makes up rules and if you argue he red tags you... i flat vented a rough one day which is fine here... he red tagged me for it. I covered it up anyway and they poured concrete on top of it. then he said studor vents are illegal and wanted us to use loop vents for island sinks. didnt do that either... oh well. One time i had an inspector make me dig out the dirt under my drains on my rough because he said it was "ash" from an old building that burned down and ash is corrosive to pvc. really guy? really? (was a rough inside a strip mall... no fire had ever occured)


----------



## Tommy plumber

I just passed a final plumbing inspection on Monday. But the Friday before it failed. Reason: Inspector didn't recognize the lav faucets and therefore he did not know if they were NSF 61 compliant (low lead). So he turned it down. All I had to do was download the info from the internet showing specs on low lead, and my final passed.

I am not upset with inspector, he's just doing his job which is enforcing the codes.


----------



## cityplumbing

Tommy plumber said:


> I just passed a final plumbing inspection on Monday. But the Friday before it failed. Reason: Inspector didn't recognize the lav faucets and therefore he did not know if they were NSF 61 compliant (low lead). So he turned it down. All I had to do was download the info from the internet showing specs on low lead, and my final passed.
> 
> I am not upset with inspector, he's just doing his job which is enforcing the codes.


What kind of faucet?


----------



## Tommy plumber

cityplumbing said:


> What kind of faucet?


 




Brizo. Evidently it's made by Delta.


----------



## Tommy plumber

This is the spec sheet.


----------



## Dun' Right

I didn't read this whole thread, but I wanted to put in my .02. (If anybody cares to hear it)

Inspectors can make your life living hell. I've only ever had one bad experience with the inspector, and my boss "instigated" it. 

1.When an inspector shows up on my job, I'm there waiting on him. (I'm always there for the inspection, because if he finds something or wants something done different, I want to know exactly what he wants). 

2. Don't try to pull anything fast on an inspector. Once you do, they will remember it forever, and will be looking even harder to make your life hell.

3.Be nice. Don't argue with him. If he wants something done a certain way, do it. Was it really that big of deal putting in an extra tee to get the hell off a job? No matter what he wants, short of a repipe, would I ever just not do what he wants. (with-in reason....lol...but once again, never personally had a problem with them)

4. You do more and more jobs with the same inspector, they learn your work. If you do good work, and they know it, you build a level of trust. I have a couple inspectors that I know on a first name basis, that show up to my jobs, take a look around for all of 10 seconds and then pass it. 

One of my old bosses used to make some comment, I forget now about inspectors being gods, and should be treated as such. They may not be in our eyes, but some of them sure think they are. 

You may disagree with whatever they say. But if it's gonna take 30 minutes to do something the way he wants, and you know how he wants it next time. Why not? 

Just adds more frustration/lost time down the road. 

Just my Opinion, for what ever it's worth. :whistling2:

Just my opinion.


----------



## mccmech

Dun' Right said:


> I didn't read this whole thread, but I wanted to put in my .02. (If anybody cares to hear it)
> 
> Inspectors can make your life living hell. I've only ever had one bad experience with the inspector, and my boss "instigated" it.
> 
> 1.When an inspector shows up on my job, I'm there waiting on him. (I'm always there for the inspection, because if he finds something or wants something done different, I want to know exactly what he wants).
> 
> 2. Don't try to pull anything fast on an inspector. Once you do, they will remember it forever, and will be looking even harder to make your life hell.
> 
> 3.Be nice. Don't argue with him. If he wants something done a certain way, do it. Was it really that big of deal putting in an extra tee to get the hell off a job? No matter what he wants, short of a repipe, would I ever just not do what he wants. (with-in reason....lol...but once again, never personally had a problem with them)
> 
> 4. You do more and more jobs with the same inspector, they learn your work. If you do good work, and they know it, you build a level of trust. I have a couple inspectors that I know on a first name basis, that show up to my jobs, take a look around for all of 10 seconds and then pass it.
> 
> One of my old bosses used to make some comment, I forget now about inspectors being gods, and should be treated as such. They may not be in our eyes, but some of them sure think they are.
> 
> You may disagree with whatever they say. But if it's gonna take 30 minutes to do something the way he wants, and you know how he wants it next time. Why not?
> 
> Just adds more frustration/lost time down the road.
> 
> Just my Opinion, for what ever it's worth. :whistling2:
> 
> Just my opinion.



Just remember, their responsibility is to up-hold the code. Soooo many of them think that they are little kings ruling over their towns. THEY have to cite for you the chapter & section for whatever you MAY be failed for. There is nothing wrong with challenging an inspector, who may be out of the field for many years, on code issues. I actually was able to argue a point with an inspector and he acknowledged on his follow-up inspection that he was wrong & had learned something. Additionally, although questioning an inspector may make him a little harder on you, aren't we supposed to be doing our jobs right in the first place. I love the feeling of being right just as much as anyone, so if I know I got a dick insopector I just pay more attention to detail on a job.


----------



## jailhooker

cityplumbing said:


> Before and after pics..


 I don't know about florida but in so cal you have to use a baffle tee on a 2 part waste. That air admittance device is also illegal here. But we also have dh inspectors out here. In our local code book almost everything says ((( unless deemed nessasary by the administrative authority ( thats the inspector) )))
:blink:


----------



## user7551

anyone who thought this was an s trap is sadly mistaken and needs to retest for their license. Could he have done cleaner work sure. But from some of the post i've read in this thread some people need to get a illustrated code book to better understand what a s trap truly looks like. Because if this is an s trap then ada offset sinks all across the nation are s traps , if u need help to understand what an s trap is take a look at the toilets u install everyday.


----------



## swedishcharm21

In chapter 1, section 102.9, which is adapted from the 2009 IPC, pretty much allows the inspector to do what he wants. I am not sure if the IPC has this listed.

By the way, if you ever appeal an inspector....you better look out.

I hear your frustration. I am a former inspector in Michigan, but I would have passed you.

I am not siding with the inspector who gigged you, but just do what they want within reason and after a few times, he will have your approval sticker filled out before he gets outta the truck.

No it is not right, but when push comes to shove, that inspector will come out on top. Whether we like it or not- They are the plumbing police.


----------



## Widdershins

swedishcharm21 said:


> In chapter 1, section 102.9, which is adapted from the 2009 IPC, pretty much allows the inspector to do what he wants. I am not sure if the IPC has this listed.
> 
> By the way, if you ever appeal an inspector....you better look out.
> 
> I hear your frustration. I am a former inspector in Michigan, but I would have passed you.
> 
> I am not siding with the inspector who gigged you, but just do what they want within reason and after a few times, he will have your approval sticker filled out before he gets outta the truck.
> 
> No it is not right, but when push comes to shove, that inspector will come out on top. Whether we like it or not- They are the plumbing police.


I have to disagree.

All Inspectors report to somebody. "plumbing police" or not, they can be held accountable for both their decisions and their actions.

I wouldn't make it a regular habit, but I see nothing wrong with going over their heads if they exceed either their authority or their mandate.


----------



## swedishcharm21

Widder- Go ahead and disagree. The next time you appeal an inspector, let me know how your life in the plumbing world is, in the municipality you appealed. I know what you mean that they too, have a boss or someone above them. But you shoot over their head...it better be a damn good reason.

If an inspector is inspecting his own jobs, or is taking money to pass work, then yes, go over their heads, but if he/she wants something a certain way- they are going to get it that way. You can complain all you want, we both know nothing will happen to the inspector.

The code has a lot of 'interpretation" plus there are sections that pretty much allow the code official to allow/disallow what they want to.


----------



## Titan Plumbing

WOW! This is not how it works around these parts...but we aren't arseholes either.


----------



## Widdershins

swedishcharm21 said:


> Widder- Go ahead and disagree. The next time you appeal an inspector, let me know how your life in the plumbing world is, in the municipality you appealed. I know what you mean that they too, have a boss or someone above them. But you shoot over their head...it better be a damn good reason.


 I'll bet there is a very interesting story behind your short tenure as a Plumbing Inspector, swede.


----------



## nhmaster3015

I have had state inspectors come in and straighten out local inspectors many many times. If it's done without animosity it becomes a learning experience for the inspector. There are ******* inspectors out there to be sure but most of them are stand up guys that are more than happy to learn. Remember that a good deal of them are not licensed plumbers and what they have picked up is all from books or what we teach them.


----------



## plbgbiz

swedishcharm21 said:


> Widder- Go ahead and disagree. The next time you appeal an inspector, let me know how your life in the plumbing world is, in the municipality you appealed. I know what you mean that they too, have a boss or someone above them. But you shoot over their head...it better be a damn good reason....


I agree with you that going over someones head without a reason or if you just don't like that they hit you with a red tag isn't good.

That said, in OKC after not getting the answer I wanted from the city inspectors office, I actually filed a petition with the Construction Industries Board (our state level). The Board decided in my favor and the OKC inspectors haven't changed one bit in how they deal with us. It has been all good. :yes:

Maybe not all inspectors are created equal.


----------



## Widdershins

plbgbiz said:


> I agree with you that going over someones head without a reason or if you just don't like that they hit you with a red tag isn't good.


I have never taken going over someones head lightly, not ever.

It comes down to picking the hill you want to die on -- Most hills aren't worth the effort, yet they do come along from time to time.

The last time it happened we were gas piping a glass blowing company -- Rather than use traditional gas cocks, we opted to use full port Mueller ball valves with larger handles to make shutting off the furnaces just that much easier -- And since the furnaces and ovens were on wheels, we hooked them up with full port quick disconnects. We did the same with the wands.

The Inspector came in and shot down the Mueller ball valves (Yes, they were WOG rated) simply because he had never seen them before and couldn't personally vouch for them. He shot down the quick disconnects because he'd never seen them in this application and because he had never seen a quick disconnect with braided stainless sheathing.

I showed him the relevant sections of the UPC allowing both the full port ball valves and the quick disconnects -- He wouldn't budge.

Rather than back out over 600 feet of 2", 1-1/2" and 1-1/4" medium pressure gas piping, I went right over his head to the Chief Inspector.

Dave came out, looked the whole job over, overruled his Inspector and the glass blowing company opened on schedule.



> That said, in OKC after not getting the answer I wanted from the city inspectors office, I actually filed a petition with the Construction Industries Board (our state level). The Board decided in my favor and the OKC inspectors haven't changed one bit in how they deal with us. It has been all good. :yes:


 I haven't had any problems with the Inspectors I've had to take to the mat either. Most of these guys are Pro's who take their jobs very seriously.



> Maybe not all inspectors are created equal.


 You do run into an Inspector with a Gawd complex like this swede feller every once in awhile -- Best thing to do is weigh the cost of the correction versus the headache of going over their head. I have a specific dollar amount I use as a yardstick. Stay under it and I'll make the correction and pass the word through the grapevine. Go a penny over it and I'll move heaven and earth to have the decision struck down.


----------

