# Things your plumber won't tell you...



## NickTex (Jun 18, 2008)

http://www.rd.com/your-america-insp...lumber-wont-tell-you/article176203.html#slide

Some interesting comments. Looks like it doesn't matter how we charge, we're all a bunch of overpaid, uneducated crooks. It's funny how when I meet people for the first time and they find out I'm a plumber they don't start out saying the things a lot of the people commenting on this article did. Instead, they have horror stories of trying to fix it themselves or questions about how to fix something at the house. I wonder what they're really thinking.

Sadly, some of the "plumbers" responding on the comments aren't really making us out to look very respectable.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

The article was poorly written and of very little value. Got a kick out of the guy claiming to be a 'master plummer.' He is one and cannot even spell it. 

I've interviewed enough plumbers to understand why plumbers have the reputation that they do. It's a real shame because there are first rate plumbers that deserve all the respect in the world. Unfortunately, I think they are in the minority.

If you are in the service industry, you need to have the whole package.


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## NickTex (Jun 18, 2008)

Well said, PC. The article was worthless, somebody needed some filler, I was just surprised by the comments. Nothing like getting kicked in the gut about something you take pride in.


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

i read that article a few months ago in readers digest i'm pretty sure


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## copperhead (Dec 26, 2009)

You ever go to see a doctor or been to the hospital ? They need to write an article about those thieves. On one occasion my old man went to the emergency room sick and to make a long story short they said his gallbladder had to go. I said no, It ain't happening. Pump him up with some antibiotics and lets see what happens. Guess what gallbladder still in tact 3 years later. theres no money in antibiotics the money is in surgery. but you don't get too many people saying that doctors are thieves or he is just trying make some money. Lets see someone write an article about that.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Unfortunately, I think they are in the minority.


 
I think this is true with every profession; doctors, lawyers, mechanics, teachers, etc. I'm not old enough to say "it's not like the old days" because the 'old days' for me are the 80's  but I like to think it wasn't always like this. I like to think that people used to have more pride in their work and workmanship. I like to think that people respected skilled labor more than they do today. I know that to be a GOOD mechanic you need to really know your stuff but if all you do is work on cars, not so much. Same goes with plumbing. 








Paul


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

rocksteady said:


> I think this is true with every profession; doctors, lawyers, mechanics, teachers, etc. I'm not old enough to say "it's not like the old days" because the 'old days' for me are the 80's  but I like to think it wasn't always like this. I like to think that people used to have more pride in their work and workmanship. I like to think that people respected skilled labor more than they do today. I know that to be a GOOD mechanic you need to really know your stuff but if all you do is work on cars, not so much. Same goes with plumbing.
> Paul


I think it was different in the 'old days.' Look at homes that were built over 100 years ago and still standing. I cannot imagine the new track homes being built today lasting 75 years let alone over 100.

Remember American pride? Seems to be very little of that too! I don't think it's exclusive to plumbers, it runs throughout every profession.

Speaking of the medical world - my mothers last stay in the hospital was pitiful. Plenty of nurses and techs, in one wing I counted 13 in total and only one was in a patient room (changing sheets to prepare the room for a new patient). The rest were all in front of computers entering who knows what. In a six hour period of time only saw a nurse once for less than five minutes.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

copperhead said:


> You ever go to see a doctor or been to the hospital ?


Yea.. Talk about a profit margin... :whistling2:


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## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

How do you have American pride when Mexicans are building everything?


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Why the magic number of only 13 reasons is what I want to know?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

AKdaplumba said:


> How do you have American pride when Mexicans are building everything?


You better thank God for mexicans or we would have canadians down here picking our fruit.


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## NickTex (Jun 18, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> You better thank God for mexicans or we would have canadians down here picking our fruit.


:laughing: Yeah, I love the Mexicans, much less irritating than Canadians and their food is way better.

Just messing with you AK.


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> You better thank God for mexicans or we would have canadians down here picking our fruit.


 I don't think so, but were good at shoveling snow.


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## copperhead (Dec 26, 2009)

njoy plumbing said:


> I don't think so, but were good at shoveling snow.


And hockey too. 
Oh wait maybe not. GO FLYERS!:thumbup:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

*Medical profession*

When my 7-yr old son broke his arm, I took him to the hospital thinking they'd x-ray and cast it like they used to do years ago when I broke my ankle as a kid some 35 yrs. ago. Not so fast; today, everyone is a "specialist". The hospital wants $1000.00's just to basically tell my wife and I that we need to go see an orthopedic doctor. OK fine. My gripe is the fact that I rec'd like 4 different bills from the hospital. The doctors' group wants to be paid.(the little, pretty MD who didn't do much except tell us to go to the another MD), The hospital itself sent another bill for services rendered. The sling they put on my son's arm prompted another bill from a company who was looking for payment of like $250 for this sling I could've bought in Eckerd drug store for $10. And I think the X-ray group of "specialists" also sent us a bill.:furious: 

That's like me replacing a W/H and my cust. gets a bill from me the plumber. Then the W/H manufacturer sends my cust. a bill. Then the Copper Institute of America sends my cust. a bill for the copper pipe and fittings I used. And finally the UA (United Assoc.) sends cust. a bill for having used a union plumber. That would be an outrage. My (and most) cust. wouldn't tolerate that! How in the world do MD's get away with this ?


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> When my 7-yr old son broke his arm, I took him to the hospital thinking they'd x-ray and cast it like they used to do years ago when I broke my ankle as a kid some 35 yrs. ago. Not so fast; today, everyone is a "specialist". The hospital wants $1000.00's just to basically tell my wife and I that we need to go see an orthopedic doctor. OK fine. My gripe is the fact that I rec'd like 4 different bills from the hospital. The doctors' group wants to be paid.(the little, pretty MD who didn't do much except tell us to go to the another MD), The hospital itself sent another bill for services rendered. The sling they put on my son's arm prompted another bill from a company who was looking for payment of like $250 for this sling I could've bought in Eckerd drug store for $10. And I think the X-ray group of "specialists" also sent us a bill.:furious:
> 
> That's like me replacing a W/H and my cust. gets a bill from me the plumber. Then the W/H manufacturer sends my cust. a bill. Then the Copper Institute of America sends my cust. a bill for the copper pipe and fittings I used. And finally the UA (United Assoc.) sends cust. a bill for having used a union plumber. That would be an outrage. My (and most) cust. wouldn't tolerate that! How in the world do MD's get away with this ?


Because people have more respect for their job and not ours.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> When my 7-yr old son broke his arm, I took him to the hospital thinking they'd x-ray and cast it like they used to do years ago when I broke my ankle as a kid some 35 yrs. ago. Not so fast; today, everyone is a "specialist". The hospital wants $1000.00's just to basically tell my wife and I that we need to go see an orthopedic doctor. OK fine. My gripe is the fact that I rec'd like 4 different bills from the hospital. The doctors' group wants to be paid.(the little, pretty MD who didn't do much except tell us to go to the another MD), The hospital itself sent another bill for services rendered. The sling they put on my son's arm prompted another bill from a company who was looking for payment of like $250 for this sling I could've bought in Eckerd drug store for $10. And I think the X-ray group of "specialists" also sent us a bill.:furious:
> 
> That's like me replacing a W/H and my cust. gets a bill from me the plumber. Then the W/H manufacturer sends my cust. a bill. Then the Copper Institute of America sends my cust. a bill for the copper pipe and fittings I used. And finally the UA (United Assoc.) sends cust. a bill for having used a union plumber. That would be an outrage. My (and most) cust. wouldn't tolerate that! How in the world do MD's get away with this ?


The Dr.'s do not work for the hospital...they work at the hospital. The hospital sends the Dr.'s a bill for using their building. 

You went into a building that has millions of dollars worth of equipment in it and Dr.'s go to school for years and pay high ass malpractice insurance to be able to work.......and your complaining about a few hundred.:laughing: 

If they would have turned you away at the door you would be *****ing about that i guess and wanting to sue them:whistling2:

My best friend use to sell surgical tools.......scissors that cost 400.00. The reason is they hafta have all those tools tested and insured and that costs BIG money. Its alittle different when they are used to work on people as compared to a toilet.

When a plumber is comparing their work to a Dr. sombody needs to put the pipe down and get back to reality.


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## ThePlumber657 (May 26, 2010)

Not that I disagree, Because alot of the plumbers that I have worked with over the years are about as smart as thier toolboxes. Yes, there are a proud few that still do take pride in their work. Granted that the work that we do now really has changed from the way that it was done 100 years ago,.......But it still is an art. It still can look very nice, square, plum , and spaced properly. Lots of tradesman choose to do it the quick easy way. Off 10 degrees here, not strapped straight there. It gives us all a bad name, that's why people call us "CROOKS" If every plumber made it work 100% of the time, they might say that it is expensive, but not that we are crooks. If people feel that we have done the service that we have been paid for, then it all reverts back to the time when plumbers were revered for thier services...... just a thought


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> The Dr.'s do not work for the hospital...they work at the hospital. The hospital sends the Dr.'s a bill for using their building. You went into a building that has millions of dollars worth of equipment in it and Dr.'s go to school for years and pay high ass malpractice insurance to be able to work.......and your complaining about a few hundred.:laughing:





TheMaster said:


> Bu in all fairness to our trade, something is rotten in the health field.
> 
> Subject in point back in December when I had the little stoke. I was in the hopital from 10:30 A.M on 12/4/2009 I was discharged at 5:00 P.M on 12/5/2009 I slept one night, had supper on the 4th, breakfast and lunch on the 5th. Other than the tests I had, Nothing else was given except 2 pills. Now I get a bill $22,000.00. My feeling a bit high ... worse yet there was a credit of 14,992.00 written up as an offset. Why well I would surmise that because the bill was covered by my medicare & the supplemental they knew when they billed how much the insurance was going to pay. Why would they overbill? Somewhere, someplace -- sombody reviews the billing. Keep the procedures high that way we as a profession will get more when the rates are re-established. TM if all our bills were paid by insurance we [plumbers] could do the same ... Wow your 90 could goto 270 without batting an eye. Of course you would have credit and offset each bill. But think of the poor SOB who does not have insurance. He/She would have owed the 22,000. Probably he/she did not have the money, so the bill gets written off at 22,000 as a bad debt. And through the accounting procedure that counts as part payment to their tax free status. My true feeling -- the whole system is one crooked mess. Wait until the men in the suits get in there and make it worse.
> PS What I owed on my bill was 100 bucks.


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> When my 7-yr old son broke his arm, I took him to the hospital thinking they'd x-ray and cast it like they used to do years ago when I broke my ankle as a kid some 35 yrs. ago. Not so fast; today, everyone is a "specialist". The hospital wants $1000.00's just to basically tell my wife and I that we need to go see an orthopedic doctor. OK fine. My gripe is the fact that I rec'd like 4 different bills from the hospital. The doctors' group wants to be paid.(the little, pretty MD who didn't do much except tell us to go to the another MD), The hospital itself sent another bill for services rendered. The sling they put on my son's arm prompted another bill from a company who was looking for payment of like $250 for this sling I could've bought in Eckerd drug store for $10. And I think the X-ray group of "specialists" also sent us a bill.:furious:
> 
> That's like me replacing a W/H and my cust. gets a bill from me the plumber. Then the W/H manufacturer sends my cust. a bill. Then the Copper Institute of America sends my cust. a bill for the copper pipe and fittings I used. And finally the UA (United Assoc.) sends cust. a bill for having used a union plumber. That would be an outrage. My (and most) cust. wouldn't tolerate that! How in the world do MD's get away with this ?


We have health care up here in Canada to pay for all that.:thumbup: GO FLYERS!!


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I'm not trying to knock our trade just put it in perspective on what it takes to be a DR vs a Plumber.

Just think if plumbers couldn't refuse service? Dr.'s make the ones who pay...pay for all the ones who cant or dont pay. I know many Dr.'s and they all donate their time and money to worthy causes and are not stingy people. I know many Dr.'s that will see patients for free...especially patients that are really sick and cant pay....even get them box's of sample medicines for free...like a years worth. 

Again we all are important..plumbers,Dr.'s,nurse,electrician,etc.......but with all my arogant ways I will never think of myself as contributing to society as much as a good Dr. can. 

A Dr. saved my fathers life by finding problems nobody else could or would and i dont think for a minute is was about the money. It takes a special person to watch people die and then be abe to get back up in the morning and do it again despite your best efforts. I dont think i could do that on a daily basis.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

njoy plumbing said:


> We have health care up here in Canada to pay for all that.:thumbup: GO FLYERS!!


Yeah and your goverment takes almost 1/2 your paycheck to provide it for "free"....then if your not almost dead you might hafta wait until you are before you get treatment. What you guys have isn't perfect by a long shot.


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## copperhead (Dec 26, 2009)

I don't think doctors are evil I think they have to do things as they are told to do it or they won't be a doctor for long. Now hospitals, they are evil. They are a bunch of fat rats. The whole country is stuggling but not them they just keep building. And it just burns my a$$ when some rich old lady kicks the bucket and leaves all her millions to that poor nice hospital.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

themaster said:


> i'm Not Trying To Knock Our Trade Just Put It In Perspective On What It Takes To Be A Dr Vs A Plumber.
> 
> Just Think If Plumbers Couldn't Refuse Service? Dr.'s Make The Ones Who Pay...pay For All The Ones Who Cant Or Dont Pay. I Know Many Dr.'s And They All Donate Their Time And Money To Worthy Causes And Are Not Stingy People. I Know Many Dr.'s That Will See Patients For Free...especially Patients That Are Really Sick And Cant Pay....even Get Them Box's Of Sample Medicines For Free...like A Years Worth.
> 
> ...



We Protect The Health Of The Nation !!!! And I Have Saved Lives And People Die When We F--- Up


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Yeah and your goverment takes almost 1/2 your paycheck to provide it for "free"....then if your not almost dead you might hafta wait until you are before you get treatment. What you guys have isn't perfect by a long shot.


 Here we go again. He was talking about a broken arm. No its not perfect and no they don't take half my paycheck. Get your facts straight my freind. We pay a premium just like any other insurance coverage. Taxes I'm sure make up for a portion, but my take home at the end of the day won't be much different than yours.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Over the course of time, Plumbers have saved MORE lives than doctors. :thumbsup:
Period.

Besides, doctors bury their mistakes.:whistling2:


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## copperhead (Dec 26, 2009)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Over the course of time, Plumbers have saved MORE lives than doctors. :thumbsup:
> Period.
> 
> Besides, doctors bury their mistakes.:whistling2:


well said !
http://www.poopreport.com/Intellectual/no_plumbing_disease.html


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## breid1903 (Feb 8, 2009)

insurance pays for it all. i have socialist, fascist, communist, death watch and government insurance. MEDICARE. $97.00 bucks a month. $175.00 bucks a month. pays it all. yes i get socialist security. breid..................:rockon:


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I'm not trying to knock our trade just put it in perspective on what it takes to be a DR vs a Plumber.
> 
> Just think if plumbers couldn't refuse service? Dr.'s make the ones who pay...pay for all the ones who cant or dont pay. I know many Dr.'s and they all donate their time and money to worthy causes and are not stingy people. I know many Dr.'s that will see patients for free...especially patients that are really sick and cant pay....even get them box's of sample medicines for free...like a years worth.
> 
> ...


 My son is working hard to become a Physicians Assistant ,,, hopefully in ortho-surgery . I have a NEW FOUND respect for how they train and what hell they go through . However ,,, we plumbers are VERY NEEDED also and should get more respect and less crap for what we charge .
my .02


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> We Protect The Health Of The Nation !!!! And I Have Saved Lives And People Die When We F--- Up


You haven't and will not save near the lives of a typical E.R. Dr. Many can connect pipes correctly...not many can repair damage from a gunshot.:blink:



njoy plumbing said:


> Here we go again. He was talking about a broken arm. No its not perfect and no they don't take half my paycheck. Get your facts straight my freind. We pay a premium just like any other insurance coverage. Taxes I'm sure make up for a portion, but my take home at the end of the day won't be much different than yours.


Money doesn't come out of thin air...sure your paying for it. Your take home pay might not be much different but the quality of my healthcare is much better. I have health insurance and it costs 250 a month....I make that in a couple hours.



RealLivePlumber said:


> Over the course of time, Plumbers have saved MORE lives than doctors. :thumbsup:
> Period.
> 
> Besides, doctors bury their mistakes.:whistling2:


Plumbing may have saved more lives but A plumber hasn't. 

Ever see an ad on craigslist for sombody to come over a do surgery on them on a saturday for extra money? :whistling2: Hell no and its for a good reason.....plumbing simple and surgery is not.


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> You haven't and will not save near the lives of a typical E.R. Dr. Many can connect pipes correctly...not many can repair damage from a gunshot.:blink:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And you know this how? I totally respect outr health care proffesionals and have no problem with small waits at an emergancy room. But I have never once been made to wait an unreasonable amount of time. You don't think your taxes don't cover some of your medical costs nation wide then your dreaming. We also have americans constantly trying to get their perscription drugs from here.
I do agree with your statement about plumbing saving lives not the plumber. **** I don't no why this is even a dbate other than you slammed your neighbor.


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## copperhead (Dec 26, 2009)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> We Protect The Health Of The Nation !!!! And I Have Saved Lives And People Die When We F--- Up


 http://www.cummingutilities.com/Mortuary_Funeral_Home_Backflow_2006.pdf


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

As usual, our aqaintance who so humbly calls himself 'the master' is an authority in yet another area of human endeavor; this time it's medecine. In the desire to take a shot at one of your colleagues, you missed my point. I was speaking to the fact that the medical profession doesn't play by the same rules. As proof, insurance companies in the US are now more or less dictating what the MD's can charge for their services. Doctors' fees being reigned in by insurance companies is a direct result of either real or perceived abuse with regard to 'billing practices.' Whether or not the billing abuse is real or imagined depends on who is answering the question. Please Mr. master, tell us does your expertise extend North of the border too? Are you an authority in Canadian law? What should be done about the oil in the Gulf of Mexico? Enlighten us with your answers.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> As usual, our aqaintance who so humbly calls himself 'the master' is an authority in yet another area of human endeavor; this time it's medecine. In the desire to take a shot at one of your colleagues, you missed my point. I was speaking to the fact that the medical profession doesn't play by the same rules. As proof, insurance companies in the US are now more or less dictating what the MD's can charge for their services. Doctors' fees being reigned in by insurance companies is a direct result of either real or perceived abuse with regard to 'billing practices.' Whether or not the billing abuse is real or imagined depends on who is answering the question. Please Mr. master, tell us does your expertise extend North of the border too? Are you an authority in Canadian law? What should be done about the oil in the Gulf of Mexico? Enlighten us with your answers.


I met two Dr.'s today that do not take medicare and only take certain insurances so not every Dr. is playing the insurance game.

I know enough about Canada to know their healthcare system is not as good as ours even tho ours is not perfect. The Dr.'s in the U.S. are better pound for pound.

For sure I'm not an authority on Canadian law.


The Oil needs to be stopped and then cleaned up.

Do you speak Cuban?


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

I read thru most the comments on the blog page. Most people don't give plumbers much credit for being very intelligent at all. I would have to say most of the general population is not aware of the apprenticeship programs that must be completed. 

As a plumbing apprentice you are introduced to the worst of the worst. I remember crawling thru things to get to places where few dared. For the most part there is no bigger ******* than a journeyman plumber to work under. 

Doctors,Dentist and Lawyers deserve a certain degree of respect, the process to become either requires 8 years of school. Lawyers have to pass the BAR exam and doctors are required to serve a residency. 

I don't have much respect for any other career choices. I would have to say most college graduates are disappointments. They get a job and just show up till they retire. What is their contribution to society?

I don't really give a rat's ass about what a advanced diyer or handyman think about the plumbing trade. Sooner or Later they are going to screw something up so bad, that they have to call a plumber. And we will be there.

What kind of warranty have you ever gotten from a doctor or lawyer? Just curious.:thumbsup:


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> What should be done about the oil in the Gulf of Mexico? Enlighten us with your answers.



I think Kevin Costner and his centrifuge(something like that) seems to have the machine to do it. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...tners_invention__device_to_clean_oil_fro.html


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

What kind of warranty have you ever gotten from a doctor or lawyer? Just curious


GREAT LINE !!! :thumbup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Lawyers guarantee settlements all the time and give clients advances on the money.

How do you expect a Dr. to give a warranty when they are working with used and abused equipment(the human body) and a patient that doesn't follow directions?


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Lawyers guarantee settlements all the time and give clients advances on the money.
> 
> How do you expect a Dr. to give a warranty when they are working with used and abused equipment(the human body) and a patient that doesn't follow directions?


 True ,,, but ya still gotta pay everytime ya go back :whistling2:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

You're dreaming. 

Before you reply, let me remind you that my mother is a civil attorney and I have several lawyer friends.



TheMaster said:


> *Lawyers guarantee settlements all the time and give clients advances on the money.*
> 
> How do you expect a Dr. to give a warranty when they are working with used and abused equipment(the human body) and a patient that doesn't follow directions?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> You're dreaming.
> 
> Before you reply, let me remind you that my mother is a civil attorney and I have several lawyer friends.


I dont care who yo momma is....I have long term customers who are personal injury attorneys and they DO make advances.....you dont know what your talking about.

These boys dont play and they have deep pockets.....http://www.cunninghambounds.com/

Thats just one firm.....I know several others that if you come in the door with the right case.....they will cut you a huge check right on the SPOT


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

How does that work out when the case doesn't settle? And BTW, if you knew the first thing about law in ANY state, you would know that settlement is NEVER guaranteed.



TheMaster said:


> I dont care who yo momma is....I have long term customers who are personal injury attorneys and they DO make advances.....you dont know what your talking about.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> How does that work out when the case doesn't settle? And BTW, if you knew the first thing about law in ANY state, you would know that settlement is NEVER guaranteed.


 
How much do you think its worth to a family whos 16 yr old daughter is sitting at a redlight and an 18 wheeler slams into her killing her instantly and wal-marts written on the side of that 18 wheeler??? Thats guaranteed money boss anyway you look at it.

Thats just an example. I know of atleast 2 cases of shipyard workers here that were given money for 3 or 4 years until there settlement was reached by a personal injury attorney


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Often when a person has a clear cut case the liable party will make an offer....the lawyer must propose that offer to his client and let him make the decision to take it or not. This is not good for the client and not good for the lawyer representing his client. The lawyer knows he can get way more but the client only sees this huge amount and doesn't realize they can get double or triple that if they wait and let the lawyer negotiate a higher settlement or take it to court and win a huge amount. In the mean time the client is hurt or out of work.....they need money so the lawyer will make an advance in the form of a loan.......knowing the loan is secure the lawyer doesn't worry. He also knows if he F's up he will never get that loan repaid. 

In short they give advances to satisfy their clients need for money so they dont hafta accept the 1st offer that comes across the table.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I also know a criminal defense lawyer who says for 5 grand he can make a misdemeanor offense go away....But you will have unsupervised probation. Or his services are free he says:laughing:


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> I also know a criminal defense lawyer who says for 5 grand he can make a misdemeanor offense go away....But you will have unsupervised probation. Or his services are free he says:laughing:


For 5 Grand, I would take my chances with the misdemeanor


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