# Valve replacement question



## Evolve (Jan 2, 2011)

I'm having a bit of a dilema and was wondering what you would do in this situation.

I'm replacing all the valves in this condo complex and I've been having issues with the lower units with not being able to completely drain the lines as I don't have access to every unit everyday. I'm given a list of units I have access to each day and I go in and replace the valves.

So here lies my question. With not being able to remove all the water in the line, it makes it close to impossible to solder the new valve on. Would you be okay with simply adding a Dahl 3/8" Female compression X 3/8"'s compression valve over the existing valve?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Jet sweat and a copper male adapter?

I guess the addon valve works, but it's kindo hokey.....


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## Evolve (Jan 2, 2011)

Protech said:


> Jet sweat and a copper male adapter?
> 
> I guess the addon valve works, but it's kindo hokey.....



I know and I don't like doing it. What do you mean by jet sweat? Not familiar with the term.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Jet Sweat is a tool used to stop the flow of draining water in line so you can install a shut off valve.

The kit has sizes from 1/2"-2"

Larger sizes can be purchased, we have them all the way up to 4" at our shop.


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

you can propress also but the jet sweat would work fine, it a shaft with a robber gromet at the end. You insert in the pipe and tightn as the gromet exapands it stops the water letting you solder a valve or a mip i recomend the mip so if a plumber has to change out they dont go through the same problem. fyi you can see them on ebay under jet swet.


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## Evolve (Jan 2, 2011)

Is that the kit that freezes the lines?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Evolve said:


> Is that the kit that freezes the lines?


no. You insert a rubber plug inside the pipe. When you tighten it down the plug expands inside the pipe. That stops the water so you can solder.


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

no partner its alot cheaper it goes inside the pipe


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Evolve said:


> Is that the kit that freezes the lines?


No, that's a freeze kit.

Do a search for Jet Sweat kit and you will see what we are talking about.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

http://brenelle.com/


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## Evolve (Jan 2, 2011)

I just looked it up. Seems like a nice tool although it doesn't look like it would work with the Dahl valves.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Evolve said:


> I just looked it up. Seems like a nice tool although it doesn't look like it would work with the Dahl valves.


You can't just cut the valves off?

They also make a tool like a jetsweat that uses a ball and flexible rod so that it can go around 90s.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Evolve said:


> I just looked it up. Seems like a nice tool although it doesn't look like it would work with the Dahl valves.


Are you talking about stops underneath a lav or kitchen sink?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

...


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## Evolve (Jan 2, 2011)

Well here's the thing, I don't have enough pipe to cut the valves off. They are all really close to the wall. 

And yes I'm talking valves for lav's and WC's.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Evolve said:


> Well here's the thing, I don't have enough pipe to cut the valves off. They are all really close to the wall.
> 
> And yes I'm talking valves for lav's and WC's.


 
Cut through the valve body using a sawzall or hack saw right in front of the the end of the pipe. You can now use your jet sweat on the remaining fitting hub.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Sounds like some wall needs to come out..


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

I dare say but what about one of them mip x sharkbite fittings. I use them for test assemblies, easier then soldering on a test piece.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Is there a water meter outside where you shut the water off at?


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f7/landed-my-first-big-one-14845/

Post #4 has some great advice... Good call L2P!

:jester:


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## Evolve (Jan 2, 2011)

Protech said:


> Cut through the valve body using a sawzall or hack saw right in front of the the end of the pipe. You can now use your jet sweat on the remaining fitting hub.


I guess that would be one way of doing it. Thanks. I started doing it like that on a couple units and really didn't like the look of it. I'll have to go back and fix them.



> Sounds like some wall need to come out..


That is something I need to avoid as it is definitely not in the quote not do I have the skills to fix it.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

so its 3/8ths stops or the wall is gettin cut out

whats the problem?


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

GREENPLUM said:


> so its 3/8ths stops or the wall is gettin cut out
> 
> whats the problem?


Add-a-valves are the mark of a handy-hack. Professionals get the job done right, the first time.

Take Protechs advice with the sawzall and the jet-sweat... Rock solid!


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## Evolve (Jan 2, 2011)

GREENPLUM said:


> so its 3/8ths stops or the wall is gettin cut out
> 
> whats the problem?


They are doing preventative maintenance on all the unit s since they've had a few issues with the complex. Most of the these valves are seized and don't work anymore.


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## Evolve (Jan 2, 2011)

U666A said:


> Add-a-valves are the mark of a handy-hack. Professionals get the job done right, the first time.
> 
> Take Protechs advice with the sawzall and the jet-sweat... Rock solid!


I know and that's why I didn't like it... at all. And here asking for some ideas on how to do it.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Reason I ask if there is a meter, you could disconnect the bldg side nipple and let the water flow to the box giving you time to work, all this is providing no PRV is present.


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## Evolve (Jan 2, 2011)

Ron said:


> Reason I ask if there is a meter, you could disconnect the bldg side nipple and let the water flow to the box giving you time to work, all this is providing no PRV is present.


Everything is soldered, 2" with no way of draining. No unions or anything


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Use a wet vac to remove as much water as you can from the line, speeds up the wait time.


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## Evolve (Jan 2, 2011)

Ron said:


> Use a wet vac to remove as much water as you can from the line, speeds up the wait time.


I'll have to give it a shot


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Ron said:


> Use a wet vac to remove as much water as you can from the line, speeds up the wait time.


I use 36" long 3/8" pex supply lines all the time to suck the water out of copper lines. You can actually solder with the pex inside the copper if you're good.


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## Evolve (Jan 2, 2011)

Protech said:


> I use 36" long 3/8" pex supply lines all the time to suck the water out of copper lines. You can actually solder with the pex inside the copper if you're good.



Also something I'll have to try. Thanks for the tips guys, much appreciated. I'll let you know what ends up working for me tomorrow.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech said:


> I use 36" long 3/8" pex supply lines all the time to suck the water out of copper lines. You can actually solder with the pex inside the copper if you're good.



If you use a ridgid 3/8" line you don't have to be good.


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

The other way might be if you have access to the mains use hot taps cut in new lines and cap the existing lines, the plus is you don't have to shut down the system.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Protech said:


> Cut through the valve body using a sawzall or hack saw right in front of the the end of the pipe. You can now use your jet sweat on the remaining fitting hub.


See, where I live that would be the absolute worst thing you could do to old copper. Our water aggressively eats copper and it gets thin and brittle as it ages. Shaking old copper hard with a sawzall or even a hacksaw almost guarantees leaks in the wall or further up/down the lines. We learn to be ultra-gentle on old copper unless we're planning on replacing it all. Your mileage may vary, depending on your local water.

If you're going to cut those valves off I would highly recommend a 4-1/2" grinder with zip cut blades. You can cut them off WAY faster than either a hacksaw or a sawzall, and not shake the hell out of the old copper. Nice clean cut too. If you don't already own one, they're an awesome plumber's tool with 1001 uses on the job, and best of all they're not expensive at all. Wear your safety glasses!!!


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Flow through Jet-Sweats would probably be a handy tool on this job....


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

U666A said:


> Add-a-valves are the mark of a handy-hack. Professionals get the job done right, the first time.
> 
> Take Protechs advice with the sawzall and the jet-sweat... Rock solid!


 
well the OP said there isnt any money to open the wall, he also stated that there isnt enuff copper to install a new stop. did you miss that :laughing:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Ron said:


> If you use a ridgid 3/8" line you don't have to be good.


 
Yeah, but those don't bend around turns very well


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

futz said:


> See, where I live that would be the absolute worst thing you could do to old copper. Our water aggressively eats copper and it gets thin and brittle as it ages. Shaking old copper hard with a sawzall or even a hacksaw almost guarantees leaks in the wall or further up/down the lines. We learn to be ultra-gentle on old copper unless we're planning on replacing it all. Your mileage may vary, depending on your local water.
> 
> If you're going to cut those valves off I would highly recommend a 4-1/2" grinder with zip cut blades. You can cut them off WAY faster than either a hacksaw or a sawzall, and not shake the hell out of the old copper. Nice clean cut too. If you don't already own one, they're an awesome plumber's tool with 1001 uses on the job, and best of all they're not expensive at all. Wear your safety glasses!!!


 
If the copper is that thin then they need a repipe and the whole project is a waste of money.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

futz said:


> See, where I live that would be the absolute worst thing you could do to old copper. Our water aggressively eats copper and it gets thin and brittle as it ages. Shaking old copper hard with a sawzall or even a hacksaw almost guarantees leaks in the wall or further up/down the lines. We learn to be ultra-gentle on old copper unless we're planning on replacing it all. Your mileage may vary, depending on your local water.
> 
> If you're going to cut those valves off I would highly recommend a 4-1/2" grinder with zip cut blades. You can cut them off WAY faster than either a hacksaw or a sawzall, and not shake the hell out of the old copper. Nice clean cut too. If you don't already own one, they're an awesome plumber's tool with 1001 uses on the job, and best of all they're not expensive at all. Wear your safety glasses!!!


 I use a Dremel tool with a reinforced cut-off wheel -- A bit easier to finesse than an angle grinder.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

I had building where we had to change out all the stops, shower valve, toilets etc. (13 floors)

The shutoffs to this building are in columns from top to bottom, not floor to floor so we had water issues as well when trying to work, cause we only had access to one floor at a time and we only have so much time to do it. We argued with the GC about what we wanted to do and we tried something new on every floor/unit. But it was a nightmare, water drained forever. Eventually we got into a rhythm and got it done by making the GC tell the maintenance crew to open the unit below us or above for access everyday, and we'd drain the units much faster. It was the only option they finally let us do that wasn't drastic or costed more $$

Annnnyway, sometimes you have to just tell your jobsite manager the issue - if you NEED access to the rooms to drain water, and nothing else seems to be working. 

I know this isn't a solution around your problem, but it was the only thing we could do on my site.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Redwood said:


> Flow through Jet-Sweats would probably be a handy tool on this job....


 For 1/2" copper, I use black rubber fuel line hose with a rigid 3/8" supply inserted into it.


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## Plumb Bob (Mar 9, 2011)

Widdershins said:


> For 1/2" copper, I use black rubber fuel line hose with a rigid 3/8" supply inserted into it.


Great tip! I will try this


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Plumb Bob said:


> Great tip! I will try this


 Missed one very important detail -- Make sure you flare the 3/8" tube, otherwise you'll lose the rubber fuel line inside of the copper.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech said:


> Yeah, but those don't bend around turns very well


Does pex bend around a tee or a 90 in the wall?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Ron said:


> Does pex bend around a tee or a 90 in the wall?


When heated up a bit, yes.
You can also use pex ice maker line if it's being really stubborn.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech said:


> When heated up a bit, yes.
> You can also use pex ice maker line if it's being really stubborn.


I was going to mention ice maker tubing, providing the flow you need to remove is not greater then the amount of water that can being suctioned though the 1/4"


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## Evolve (Jan 2, 2011)

Well I've finally convinced the condo board to give me a key to each unit so I can drain the units above to let air in the lines so the lower units can actually fully empty. 

I tried it on the first unit and it worked. Crossing my fingers it works for the rest of them.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

I believe I'll take the credit on that one!

- kidding!...but seriously


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

½ inch mip x 3/8 comp adapt screwed into a 1x ½ galv bushing that now gets clamped into your wet and dry vac hose. Hook up to second toilet stop and turn it on sucking the water out of the line. When you get the first stop completed repeat the step for the next stop.

You can use a stainless steel dishwasher line or smaller in length to connect to the adapter and stop.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Richard Hilliard said:


> ½ inch mip x 3/8 comp adapt screwed into a 1x ½ galv bushing that now gets clamped into your wet and dry vac hose. Hook up to second toilet stop and turn it on sucking the water out of the line. When you get the first stop completed repeat the step for the next stop.
> 
> You can use a stainless steel dishwasher line or smaller in length to connect to the adapter and stop.


 This works great -- Until you switch to the hot side and start the siphoning action on every single HW tank installed on the floors above you.

Been there, done that.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Another option if the valve bodies are in good shape is to just replace the stems.


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## Evolve (Jan 2, 2011)

pauliplumber said:


> Another option if the valve bodies are in good shape is to just replace the stems.


Then we would have the same problem all over again. The valves with the stems always end up leaking and or seizing.

I will only install Dahl quarter turn ball valves.


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## c-note (Aug 12, 2011)

jet sweat and a male or female or just jet sweat and solder the valve right on


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Evolve said:


> Then we would have the same problem all over again. The valves with the stems always end up leaking and or seizing.
> 
> I will only install Dahl quarter turn ball valves.


I wonder what's going to happen to the 1/4 turn stops after 10 -15years of not being touched. The only multi turn stops I have trouble with are atleast that old and usually very repairable. I do like 1/4turn stops but have had a couple leak by and couldn't repair them which made me mad :blink:


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

pauliplumber said:


> I wonder what's going to happen to the 1/4 turn stops after 10 -15years of not being touched. The only multi turn stops I have trouble with are atleast that old and usually very repairable. I do like 1/4turn stops but have had a couple leak by and couldn't repair them which made me mad :blink:


It's called planned obsolescence and it means that we will make a killing on these products and the hundreds of other products all meant not to last and the manufacturers will be happy because they can keep making them


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> It's called planned obsolescence and it means that we will make a killing on these products and the hundreds of other products all meant not to last and the manufacturers will be happy because they can keep making them


Well, if he installs copper MIPs then it will be a snap in 15 years.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Protech said:


> Well, if he installs copper MIPs then it will be a snap in 15 years.


True. If he is able to cut the valve or remove stem then if he gets it hot enough it will in sweat and then sweat on a mip ... This will work even with water dripping ... The more drip the hotter you get it


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## Evolve (Jan 2, 2011)

Protech said:


> Well, if he installs copper MIPs then it will be a snap in 15 years.


True enough. At this point I've gotten pretty far Into the job and don't really want to back track that far. And the difference in price for those valves is ridiculous. Double the price of a regular sweat Dahl valve


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Wonder bread?


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## Evolve (Jan 2, 2011)

smokinhornsbbq said:


> Wonder bread?


Would have worked if it wasn't an angle valve it may have worked. The wonder bread works when you need to solder a joint after you've cut the pipe.


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

Try and open the stem on the toilet valve to try to direct the water to a lower opening.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> This works great -- Until you switch to the hot side and start the siphoning action on every single HW tank installed on the floors above you.
> 
> Been there, done that.


Shouldn't happen on the hot side the dip tube prevents siphoning. That is what the small hole in the dip tube is for to prevent siphoning of the tank.

If it happens the shut off on the heater needs to be replaced as it is not shutting off the water to the tank.

Water dripping out of the hot side should not be a problem unless a boiler is used to service all of the units.


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## Plumberologist (Aug 21, 2010)

revenge said:


> you can propress also but the jet sweat would work fine, it a shaft with a robber gromet at the end. You insert in the pipe and tightn as the gromet exapands it stops the water letting you solder a valve or a mip i recomend the mip so if a plumber has to change out they dont go through the same problem. fyi you can see them on ebay under jet swet.


This is the right answer. Just make sure the existing valves are not leaking trough the handles. Otherwise you will have the same problem.


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## Mpls Jay (Jan 1, 2011)

I failed to notice if these were Comp. or soldered originally?
If these are compression valves I would use a puller for the old nut and ferrules
or just reuse them.
If these were sweat you have some real work in front of you!


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## handybilly (Sep 12, 2011)

have a model 6100 jet swet tools set that is like new condition. I bought it a little over a year ago I works wonder for your case


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

handybilly said:


> have a model 6100 jet swet tools set that is like new condition. I bought it a little over a year ago I works wonder for your case


 




No you didn't! You typed 'handyman' in your profile....you'll have to do better than that if you want to hang with the big dogs....:laughing:


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

jetswetstore said:


> http://spamjetswetstore.com


Spam much ?


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Spam much ?


His prices aren't all that great. My Supply House can do much better.


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