# Tankless Water Heaters



## kimo (Jul 22, 2011)

I dont know much about gas Tankless water heaters but i've heard nothing but bad news about them from householders or the guys who install/maintain them.

Back in the old country the gas boilers that supply domestic hot water and central heating hot water have become very complicated and expensive to fix. Electronic stuff seems to be a major cause of mischief.Example: a single replacement microprocessor cost almost half the original price of the appliance.

My point is that i can see the Tankless w/h's going the same expensively complicated way. 
Plus the tankless w/h's seem to constantly disappoint the householder's expectations in terms of hot water supplied.

Maybe i'm out to lunch on this but i'd like to hear your views?


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

kimo said:


> I dont know much about gas Tankless water heaters but i've heard nothing but bad news about them from householders or the guys who install/maintain them.
> 
> Back in the old country the gas boilers that supply domestic hot water and central heating hot water have become very complicated and expensive to fix. Electronic stuff seems to be a major cause of mischief.Example: a single replacement microprocessor cost almost half the original price of the appliance.
> 
> ...


there are good and bad brands, and seems there also is good and bad in those brands...but everything seems to be going to some sort of computer control, even regular cast iron boilers have a computer board in them now..so there is no getting away from this..so far I have had good luck with takagi units, thats me, someone else may curse them...and I probably curse another brand someone has good luck with....but the more electronics in them the more finicky they become, just look at the faucets that have all the touchless controls or toilets that sense if there is debris in the bowl that could cause an overflow..now we have to be electronics fixers along with the plumbing....


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

they are junk, nothing but trouble and usually cost about 4 times what a common hot water heater costs. 

I dont install them and never want to


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## KoleckeINC (Oct 22, 2011)

Like air conditioning in an old car-it's a $$$ luxury $$$


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## Plumberdood1 (Apr 23, 2014)

We install Rinnai, great luck with them and our customers are happy. You have to be upfront with the customer with its capability of hot water.

Great for maintenance agreements.


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## bowta360 (Jan 17, 2016)

Navien and rinnai are the only brands we install. Haven't had any issues here. As long as you supply enough gas to them. Had an issue with the computing system once on a navien, but that was almost 4 years ago.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

tankless water heaters are like the muscle cars
were back in the 70s when I was in high school ... Its a guy thing...... 
Every male wanted a Impala Chevy 350 SS with chrome wheels
because they thought it was sexy and attracted the chicks.... 
and all I had was a crummey ford falcon. 

and now they have somehow transferred this male desire over to 
having the baddest and most technically advanced water heater 
down in their mechanical room---man cave.... and they think it
makes them real cool like back in high school......

the only thing they have not realized is that its junk and 
it dont attract the chicks ......:laughing::laughing:.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Someday in the not so distant future everyone will have to install condensing equipment if the federal govt has their way. Adapt gentlemen.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Tankless water heaters are a great option and have been around a lot longer than many people realize. I started on Paloma units 30 years ago and they weren't new then. In general I like the technological advancements in our trade and tankless units are all part of it. Just like having electronic ignition coming down the pike for tank type water heaters. State and AO Smith commercial WH's have used computer control boards for many decades as well. This is not new.

What has changed is the marketing. Not just of plumbing but everything really. There was a time when it was left to the trade professional to decide what was best in any given situation. Not so much nowadays. Largely because of the ready access to information on the interwebz (not always accurate though), consumers request specific widgets based on marketing promises rather than the facts of their real circumstances.

In steps the tankless WH manufacturers. With all their promises of undless volumes of hot water coupled with saving enough money to fund an average consumer's 401K, some customers demand tankless water heaters no matter how wrong it is for their circumstances. I imagine doctors feel the same way about all the medication advertisements. Patients are now clamoring for a particular drug because the TV said it would solve their woes, not because their physician sees it as a good for their treatment.

In the end, we as Plumbing Professionals have to stomach the bad with the good in these changing times. This means we should take a little more time to actually know what these new technologies mean not only for our customers, but also for our businesses moving forward. It is not near enough to know all about tankless WH's and all the places we can install them. It is our job to also know when NOT to install one. Many of us have heard (or been part of) the stories of tankless installs that should never have been. 

I like installing higher margin products and services that are way over the head of consumers. I like advancing technology that causes more consumers to NEED a plumber to handle their fixture installation and maintenance. I like having access to advancing technology that guarantees a measure of work goes back to the licensed trade rather than the sale rack at the big box. I like having something new to sink my teeth into. And lastly, I also like that not every plumber embraces these changes. More for me!

But I also hate that some manufacturers use word trickery to push their products onto the unsuspecting and gullible consumer (yes, insert one-finger salute to Navien here). But they will not change what clearly works. Not my fault American consumers are so gullible as to buy into all the hype rather than facts. They hear and understand only what they really want, not what they need. So it is our responsibility to customers and our own P&L report to properly educate consumers on their options along with the pro's and con's of each. Then we can make a profitable career out of being their Plumber, Consultant, and Adviser.


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## yaacov (Aug 8, 2012)

Nice speech. I mean that.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

bowta360 said:


> Navien and rinnai are the only brands we install. Haven't had any issues here. As long as you supply enough gas to them. Had an issue with the computing system once on a navien, but that was almost 4 years ago.


have you installed any of the navien combo units? or just domestic hot water units?


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## bowta360 (Jan 17, 2016)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> have you installed any of the navien combo units? or just domestic hot water units?


It's just been the domestic units for single family homes. Sometimes we do two for one house (mansion) haha.


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## Snowyman800 (Jan 7, 2016)

bowta360 said:


> It's just been the domestic units for single family homes. Sometimes we do two for one house (mansion) haha.


Three Navien 240A's!! Two in a cascade and another for the other side of the house. It's a really nice house. His living room probably has more sqaure footage than where I live. True story.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

KoleckeINC said:


> Like air conditioning in an old car-it's a $$$ luxury $$$


They are luxury items. Expensive but luxurious. My hand held shower head is close enough to my main shower head that I run them both in the same location. With my tankless pumping out endless scorching hot water I can ease the sore body after a long days work as long as I want to. A dishwasher turns on, one of my kids starts a shower, the wife wants to fill the jetted tub, who cares, I still have plenty of hot water.

We install 10 -15 tankless a year and have for many years. Very very rarely do they cause a problem. Do not understand the opinions that they are problematic. Customers love the performance and they are a higher profit margin product so what's not to like.


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## KoleckeINC (Oct 22, 2011)

I agree with you Dhal, sounds amazing. I grew up with galvanized pipe. One person showered at a time. If you were upstairs in the shower you'd have to stomp on the floor. Ha!


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## Workhorseplmg (Apr 10, 2013)

bowta360 said:


> Navien and rinnai are the only brands we install. Haven't had any issues here. As long as you supply enough gas to them. Had an issue with the computing system once on a navien, but that was almost 4 years ago.


I think Navien had a recall for a fire issue.


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## Snowyman800 (Jan 7, 2016)

Workhorseplmg said:


> I think Navien had a recall for a fire issue.


A recall issued in 2011 for units manafactured in 2008.


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## bowta360 (Jan 17, 2016)

Workhorseplmg said:


> I think Navien had a recall for a fire issue.


Yeah in 2011 they had carbon monoxide poisoning concerns with certain units. Had 13,000 recalled


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## Qplumb (Dec 19, 2015)

Once I bring up the pros and cons to the homeowner and show them the actual GPM they will get they go back with tank water heater. I always ask why they want a tankless and they always say "to save money". 
In kansas city the incoming water temp is about 52°, it needs to raise temp about 68° to get to 120°. Even the larger units only give about 6 GPM which means 1.5 showers at a time with no flow reducer in shower head. I don't hate tankless water heaters but think they are over rated and over installed. Too many dishonest plumbers selling them based on saving money. When your honest with the customer very few will choose a tankless.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

there are may reasons to install the tankless heaters, I have had customers tell me they see a reduction in the gas bill compared to a hot water tank, many people that convert from oil to gas goto power vented equipment to save the money lining a chimney( thats code here)so take the $1200 to $1800 for chimney lining and the tankless heaters fall back into the price range, and continuous hot water for filling large tubs is another reason...flood damage is another for wall hung units...and there are just as many negatives, but explaining to the customer and what each individual needs are is part of selling a proper job that will work for that person..


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## bowta360 (Jan 17, 2016)

I explain pros and cons as well and I get mixed answers. It definitely depends on the homeowner.


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