# Tankless Heaters



## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

My area is getting ( finally ) the point about tankless heaters. I still will not put them on a well system, but will be starting to flog them for in town.
I am looking to sell the Navien line.
Is there anything special I will need to watch for with these heaters? I know I need to have the gasline sized properly and have the appliance as the first connection when I can. I won't install it on an outside wall in a mobile home ( too cold ). What kind of tips and tricks are there to ensure a quick and painless install?
I am not looking to cut corners, I just want to avoid a steep learning curve.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Good luck with that.....

There is a learning curve - quick and painless are not part of that either. They are not overly difficult but you must pay attention to the details. Navian line is a brand that I did some testing for. They make a line of condensing units that in some respects I actually like better than my main Noritz line I usually sell. Navian has a few advantages and they have done some things I really liked with their heaters. I am still a bit leery about selling too many of them.....I was not impressed with the PCB layout (printed circuit board), no the rubber tubing inside. I did not care for the remote menue system, nor its connections to the main board. However...they are condensing and are .98% efficient (unheard of) they are very quiet...more so than the Rinnai's and Noritz units. They on some mdls have an internal recirculation pump with a thermal sensor to recirculate the water...HUGE in my book. They are condensing, so you need to have a drain or install a condensate pump and plumb it to a drain....more $$$$ but in the right situation...Navian is a great choice....for me, not every choice would be it. I have done2 for the company and I sold about 4 or 5. So far no callbacks but I am not slanging them full swing. They are a little more complicarted than the average tankless.....you would be well suited to start reading tankless manuals of different brands. you will soon learn the similarities of them all...Learn your vent clearences.....Things like what Smells is going through with block wall for his wall thimble (not needed on Navian units) those things become a non pain in the ass issue. But after he has done a few he can now walk up to a job and know he can knock that out in 1.5 hrs so when he is putting his bid together he has that much more experience versus the guy that has no clue how to get through the block....who than allocates billable 4 hrs just for vent termination. THOSE are the painfull, learning curve lessons one must learn with tankless. Any monkey can hoock up hot cold gas drain...etc....It's just getting to that point. It's being able to relocate a heater for X amount of reasons and not make it a 12 grand job. That is the learning curve. I will tell you all this...getting good with tankless heaters will make you a much better plumber. 

I was the 4th guy to walk a job today. Realtor tells me all 3 of the otjher guys want to put the tankless heater in the garage. What do I think?
I said, I'll tell you...they are clueless to operation. The garage is 30 ft from the mstr bath and another 30 to the kit. I said, lets relocate to the kitchen area, because at least that will get hot water faster...Master bath is going to have to wait X amount of time anyhow, may as well pick up the kitchen. This guy stops in his tracks and says....ya know? your right. I looked at him with a confident smile and said...I am!!

On the way out he tells me to keep it under 4 and it's mine....it's a 3000 job....

Point is, don't shy away from the learning curve. Tankless is just like baseball.

It's good that it is sometimes hard....that's what makes them great to install. If it wasn't hard everyone would do it. If my knees lasted longer I would be retiring from major league baseball right about now....see my post on breaking brick with a big Fing hammer!

For your first few...go slow, it's not a hollywood hooker. Take your time and make it right. Good Luck


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

If I might add without acting like I know something about it, price them correctly. There seems to be an upper limit, as with anything, regarding what you can get for these installs. Test that limit, find out what it is, cling to it, and periodically retest that limit. Some my disagree but in my view these are still luxury items. They should command luxury prices. That may not always be the case but for now it seems to be that way in my neck of the woods anyway. When you squeeze that install for every dollar it will yield, it tends to really take the sting out of those 4 hour wall penetrations :yes:. If you low balled it just so you could get your hands on one, well, all I can say is get the most out of the education 'cause your gonna pay for it.


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

Believe me, I will be taking it slow. I really like that they will run at next to no flow. That really comes in handy for homes with all low flow fixtures. I am looking forward to getting the first one done. I quoted out for 2 seperate jobs with them today. I priced them a little low, but they are going to people I know. They understand that this is new for me, but they know that I will make sure that the job is done right before I leave. These 2 will be the start of the learning curve. I will adjust pricing after these 2 to reflect an approximation of time required to install and commission on a "normal" install.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Maybe I shouldn't say this and embarass myself but I never consider these installs at anything less than an all day affair. I am a slow plumber to begin with so I'm sure they can be done faster than what I do them but they seem to take me between 9 and 12 hours working alone to complete the job. Now Tankless I'm sure will tell you he can do 3 a day and be home in time for American Idol  but not me.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Now , now ,,, that doesn't make you slow . I've done several and let me just say ,,,, They are GREAT but NOT a rush job !! Just getting the pipes where you want them can be a Royal PITA . I know every business plan on earth states ," Time is Money " , yeah that's easy to say when you ar just writing it ! ENTIRELY different when you are the one using your hands to put food on the table . 
Unlike baseball ( no offense Tankless ) we cannot achieve 3 out of 10 times and be considered GREAT . We MUST bat 1000% or something REAL BAD can happen !! 

TAKE YOUR TIME ! READ THE BOOKLET ! So you lose $100 here or there ,,, so what ?? In the long run you'll make it up PLUS a lot more 

Cal


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

That's the plan. Believe me, there is no rush. They will be done right. I was mearly attempting to pick the brains of fellow plumbers who install these heaters daily. Maybe when I said "ensure a quick and painless install" I should have said "ensure I give the customer the best job possible, in as short a time as possible, so that I don't disrupt them for longer than neccessary"
I am not looking for ways to Half-arse the installs. That is not the way I run things. That's the other guys down the street.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Didn't mean any offense . Sure you are great at the job! 

For me the problem has been relocation . Can't put them in the same spot as the usual tank types . Most of the time because of the venting . I find usually have to relocate to an area were the outside is MUCH closer for the venting . Then it's pipe,pipe,pipe .

Maybe I'm just not mapping things out as well as I should .

Cal


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

With a helper, I could usually do a sweet install on a Noritz in 6 hours. All but one were in a basement, that was in a kitchen. So I figure 16 hours labor, because I count my drive time to the supply house in on this.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

I spend anywhere from 30 to 60 minutes at each job before I bid it. I have done enough of them to know it's very easy to screw things up. I normally work alone unless there is alot of basic labor involved, than I bring my guy with. Great worker...shows up ontime....works well, but the poor guy can't cut pipe to save his life. I wish he could as I would like to train him...but he is just basic labor. That and I just don't trust other people very much.

What cal was saying is very true. The relocation can be a *****, especially for you guys that can't install these things outdoors. Venting is expensive and must be done correctly. Planning and thinking it through THAN comming up with multiple options for installation at different price points with pro's and cons to each. i.e. location A will deliver HW faster to the kitchen and will be an average job where as location B will get HW to the mstr bathroom faster but will require a little bit more work. If cross connections are allowed in your area...offer up the metland recirc pump system. I sold two tankless with those pumps yesterday. Both wanted installs closer to mstr bath than recirc to the kitchen. You also want to be thinking about what you can pick up along the way. If you heat up the line to the kit, and there is a bathroom or laundry along the way...the recirc pump now serves multiple options. People like value, and people like to be taken care of. At the same time don't spend all day confusing them. Ya gotta read your client. If they care give them a few details, if they don't (usually all women) just KISS. All I can say is the more you do the better you get. Doesn't mean you will be faster at installing them, but you will do a better job and will have a better understanding of how they work and how you can be smart and experienced enough to get the sale over the other guys when you're more expensive. There is an outfit in the San Diego area that buy abouy 400-600 per month. These guys are unbelievable hacks. I was at a training at Noritz HQ and there were a few other repair techs their and I just couldn't believe the horror stories. Kids getting burned...units failing. One guy there was telling us about how they used roofing nails to mount the unit on a masonry wall....


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## Dr Steevil (Jan 25, 2009)

Tankless,

I'm glad you're here and moreover, glad I've found and joined this site. Tankless is relatively new in the Houston area and more and more people are inquiring about it. In an earlier post I mentioned being a dissenting voice and although I _still_ have my issues (maybe more from ignorance than experience), I'm learning. With more knowledge gained by persons such as yourself, I'll be in a much better position to inform clients of their choices. 

Again, thanks!


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## johnny (Jan 30, 2009)

*noritz flashing 90*

I've installed a few of these with no issues in some pizzahuts... i have a problem with one i did not install in a nail salon with 30 pedicure chairs.. the norizt is being used as a pre heater for a 100 gallon commercail heater with a mixing valve..i checked the gas pressure was closer to 6 so i adjusted the meter near 10.. same thing about five times a day flashing90.. the mixing valve was sticking so i replaced it and set both heaters on 130...this still didn't help.. I've checked the vent its ok and the fan is working at least when im there it is. Its got a backflow on the main im wondering if thermal expansion could be causing it.. not sure if it cuts out from higher water presures? they do have a cir pump that only flows through the tank heater only... they also have presure tank commodes.. im confused.. one guy told me his only worked with the cover off so he made some spacers and this fixed his.. im gonna try that next.. any help would be wonderful.
thanks,
johnny


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Oh lord. Please do everyone a favor and call Noritz tech support and beg them to help you. I'm too tired to go through all this with you. Do you even know what 90 means?


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## johnny (Jan 30, 2009)

*it means low gas pressure?*

i will call noritz back in the morning.. they also told me to make sure the waterflow is good.. the plumber before me flushed it out.. that didn't help..i'll post the solution after i fix it.
thanks johnny


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

> Do you even know what 90 means?


Nope...try again.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

> one guy told me his only worked with the cover off so he made some spacers and this fixed his.. im gonna try that next..


With that sentance right there, it tells an experienced tech exactly what is wrong.
That won't help your cause, but I want to see if the tech can get you through it. Good Luck


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## johnny (Jan 30, 2009)

*OK*

you should change your name to (mr home slice know it all) i bet you voted for obama...I was just asking for help bro... i will tell you this... i help people ... im honest..i do good work...and thats why im wealthy... still bankrolling everyday..and kicking back a little $$$$$ to those that got me here.... my phone rings more than any plumber in nashville. I don't even need the money anymore. So dont worry about it.

Thanks,
johnny


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## johnny (Jan 30, 2009)

*one more thing*

If you need work let me know... i can kick ya a ton of high dollar easy jobs.. in all types of work. and i pay good
johnny


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I just farted with excitement while reading this thread. 


Is it hot in here, hotly contested? :laughing:


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Roast Duck said:


> I just farted with excitement while reading this thread.
> 
> 
> Is it hot in here, hotly contested? :laughing:


That is damn funny.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

johnny said:


> you should change your name to (mr home slice know it all) i bet you voted for obama...I was just asking for help bro... i will tell you this... i help people ... im honest..i do good work...and thats why im wealthy... still bankrolling everyday..and kicking back a little $$$$$ to those that got me here.... my phone rings more than any plumber in nashville. I don't even need the money anymore. So dont worry about it.
> 
> Thanks,
> johnny


Unless your name is Hiller your full of crap.

I'll repeat the question that you don't seem to want to answer, what does a flashing 90 mean?


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

johnny said:


> you should change your name to (mr home slice know it all) i bet you voted for obama...I was just asking for help bro... i will tell you this... i help people ... im honest..i do good work...and thats why im wealthy... still bankrolling everyday..and kicking back a little $$$$$ to those that got me here.... my phone rings more than any plumber in nashville. I don't even need the money anymore. So dont worry about it.
> 
> Thanks,
> johnny


Easy there Easy Money Daddy Warbucks,

I actually know a few contractors in Nashville...what company do you work for? Ahhh, I really don't care.

As for helping you out...I'd have no problem with it if you could put forth a little effort. You seem to me the kind of guy that walks onto a job, scratched his head and says hmmm I can fix it.

You don't know error code 90, which means you don't know what any of the error codes are. If you did know what it was, it would point you in the right direction.
Error code 90 is ABNORMAL COMBUSTION, FLAM ROD DETECTS VERY HIGH TEMPERTURE. 6"of WC is more than required so it's not a gas supply....go put the meter back to where it was. The knee jerk reaction is to flush the unit....that rarley fixes 90's.

It could be one or two + more things to fix the unit. Without the training or experience why would you think you can fix it? Just BC you installed a few does not make you a tech. Set your manifold pressures - varifiy clean combustable air inlet / volume and make sure the heat exchanger isn't all gummed up with crudd...if it is, you will need to install a new exchanger on someones dime as that will not be covered under warranty. 

See, it's not that I don't want to help you....I just don't owe you anything. The least you could do is know what the damn error codes mean....Daddy Warbucks:jester:

You don't have to be very smart in order to fix these things, ya just can't be an idiot. So once again...Good Luck.


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## johnny (Jan 30, 2009)

*hiller*

Hiller installed this heater... yea he might get few more calls but he has 100 guys that do residential ripoffs on old ladies all day. his guys make a low hourly pay rate.... but when people loan millions theres not much left to pay your guys... I own the company (noadvertising).. I just tell who i want that they can or can't call on me... I give the residential calls and new contruction to who ever I feel will do the best job cause i just do commercial service... I fixed that heater this morning and then i replaced a water heater for logans road house and then I did a heater for The hardRock all by 1pm... I saw a junk man with a trailer near the supply house and had him pick up the old heaters... after that I went to Americgos Replaced 15 ft of 1 1/2 in copper hotwaterline...Then I did a Zurn H/C hydrant rebuild in franklin... Like I said I work for myself did a total of 25,560 parts and labor about 14,000 in parts about11500 or so in profit..this is an every day thing for me... I do have a helper that rides with me i pay him 10 bucks an hour... I still have to unstop a pizza hut(i'm waiting for the traffic to die down)... The heater had too long a vent and angled to drain the condensation back to the heat exchanger... just for your info 90 means abnormal combustion.. due to an extra long sloped back to the heater vent damn near 12feet... I always install em close to an outside wall... to keep the vent short. If its gonna be that long slope it to the outside.. This fixed it.
Johnny


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## johnny (Jan 30, 2009)

*one more question*

Do i need to have the boiler inpector look at these tankless heaters?? I'll do you guys a favor and call about it. Or will someone tell me. I think they should be inpected and tagged. This way they might not have so many problems. I tried to post the erro codes but it says I can't because its too large a pdf file.
Johnny


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## pzmember (Sep 20, 2008)

only if it is above 200,000 btu's. that what constitutes a boiler. most tankless units stay in the 180,000 to 199,000 btu range. at least in my part of the world.


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## johnny (Jan 30, 2009)

*fan cleaning on noritz*

How do you guys clean the fan and heat exchanger on noritz heaters?... I've just been using a strong wet vac on blow down the exaust vent..dust goes everywhere. but it works... And why did they make it so hard to take out the fan on these heaters for a good cleaning. They called back today to say thanks no more problems after several plumbers couln't fix it..I told them i'm gonna install a condensation drain on the exaust at the top of the heater just to be on the safe side.
Thanks Johnny


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I haven't laughed out loud reading on this forum for a long time. Thank you.:laughing:


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

I love it!


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## johnny (Jan 30, 2009)

*nobody knows*



johnny said:


> How do you guys clean the fan and heat exchanger on noritz heaters?... I've just been using a strong wet vac on blow down the exaust vent..dust goes everywhere. but it works... And why did they make it so hard to take out the fan on these heaters for a good cleaning. They called back today to say thanks no more problems after several plumbers couln't fix it..I told them i'm gonna install a condensation drain on the exaust at the top of the heater just to be on the safe side.
> Thanks Johnny


I guess you guys still have no idea...this might be why.. no one on here seems to have any intelect...
Johnny-has-spoken


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## pzmember (Sep 20, 2008)

johnny said:


> I guess you guys still have no idea...this might be why.. no one on here seems to have any intelect...
> Johnny-has-spoken


 johnny needs to quit speaking about himself in the 3rd person its stupid. and slagging on the members of this forum, which has some very wise and talented people for members, is not a way to make friends. your not going to get a green card w/ that attitude pal.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

johnny said:


> I guess you guys still have no idea...this might be why.. no one on here seems to have any intelect...
> Johnny-has-spoken


 


DUDE! You trying to take my crown away from me here? 


I proudly wear it! See me quiver


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

_Heeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrre's JOHNNY!_:w00t:

Good thread, keep the humor coming.:laughing:


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## solarman.net (Feb 2, 2009)

We use Takagi and get as much support from the manufacturer as needed . 
This is a huge market here. 
If the house has many people in it you may need to stack a couple of heaters ( run two or three in line ) If the master bath has a shower spa system you need to take that into consideration . The heaters get about 7 or 8 gpm and the body sprays will eat that up . Make sure you get an accurate count of fixtures that could possibly be running at the same time or you will be installing the second and third heater at no charge . Most body sprays and shower heads run at 2.5 gpm each .
You can not use the venting that a tank heater has you need 4" venting on the tankless . 
Your supplier will probably have an installation kit ... buy it !!!!!


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## pzmember (Sep 20, 2008)

service guy said:


> _Heeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrre's JOHNNY!_:w00t:
> 
> Good thread, keep the humor coming.:laughing:


 i'd love to but i speak to monosyllabically for johnnys taste.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Might want to check your shoes solarman.net. I'm pretty sure you just stepped in something:laughing:



Hey Johnny Warbucks, 
Can we get back into the income pissing contest. I think that's been the most enjoyable part of your "story" for me.The folks that are making an INSANE amount of money on jobs would NEVER post it on a publicly read forum. I do believe if you had a diagnostic screen it would be flashing CODE 90 cause you are going up in flames dude. 

It's about time to start the "How long before Johhny joins the band pool"
I'll go with Johnny post count of 14.


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## solarman.net (Feb 2, 2009)

Sounds like a *-load of testosterone .. play nice boys . 

Ahhhhh...... I had forgotten the the sarcazm capabilities of our great trade . It's been a while that I have had to deal with field guys simply because of the work load . Now that business has shrunk , I am so happy to get back to the basics ... God , I missed you guys . 

Should I check my shoes ?


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## pzmember (Sep 20, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> Might want to check your shoes solarman.net. I'm pretty sure you just stepped in something:laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 im gonna say 22, and im coining the phrase " banned wagon":thumbup:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I like "banned wagon". I prefer "join the band" myself.

I always loved a good marching band.

Maybe after it happens we could offer up a "banned aid"


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## M5Plumb (Oct 2, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> I like "banned wagon". I prefer "join the band" myself.
> 
> I always loved a good marching band.
> 
> Maybe after it happens we could offer up a "banned aid"



LMFAO.....Banned Aid:thumbsup: 

Thanks ILP, I needed that one !!! I likes it, I likes it a lots!:jester:


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Lets bring this back on topic please, topic is Tankless Water Heaters. for those that forget what it was about.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

"mama always sais, stupid is as stupid does"

Johnny...your not too bright are you?


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> I like "banned wagon". I prefer "join the band" myself.
> 
> I always loved a good marching band.
> 
> Maybe after it happens we could offer up a "banned aid"


I believe Johnny's about to be "abannedoned"


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