# Need tankless help!



## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

We have a laundry / drycleaner customer that needs a fast upgrade to a proper HW solution. You'd cry if you saw the inadequate system he now has in place (33MBTUH 50USG direct vent residential heater). It can't do it and he's just added a new washer that requires 15gpm @ 140 F.

The old washer was 3.5 - 4.0 gpm at best and pretty much the highest HW user in the place (he also has a small steam plant for the sheet presses and such). Now he's added this giant Wascomat.

I was thinking of a couple of Rinnai R98's (yeh, this is Rinnai country here) and a 60 or 80 gal storage tank, pumps, etc. Temp rise is 100 degF all winter and 70 degF for two months of the year. The cycle times of the Wascomat make me think that this'd work just fine but I'd like to hear from people that might know better than me.

Thoughts, ppl?

Thanks,
Mig


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

So 48 views and we got nuthin'???
I thought that *this* crew would have at the very least a snide remark or two. lol

But I think I've got my proposal ready anyhow. Just thought I'd run it by the Zone since I know that there's a lot of really good experience living here.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

According to Rheem, 1st, establish peak demand in gallons per hr. Then evaluate W/H on same GPH
basis to determine how many gallons needed to meet demand.

check out this:http://rheem.com/WHTechBulletins.aspx


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## plumjoe (Oct 21, 2009)

http://eternalwaterheater.com/products.html i havent installed them in a commercial job but have used it in residental one heater to replace two 50 gal heaters and no complaints


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## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

Miguel said:


> We have a laundry / drycleaner customer that needs a fast upgrade to a proper HW solution. You'd cry if you saw the inadequate system he now has in place (33MBTUH 50USG direct vent residential heater). It can't do it and he's just added a new washer that requires 15gpm @ 140 F.
> 
> The old washer was 3.5 - 4.0 gpm at best and pretty much the highest HW user in the place (he also has a small steam plant for the sheet presses and such). Now he's added this giant Wascomat.
> 
> ...


They have Natural gas? How many machines? I'm not a big fan of tank-less water heaters. Bradford white makes a nice system to compete with the tank-less. Runs off natural gas.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Be sure to double check the pipe size vs. btu's. It would seem unlikely it is sized to handle one, much less multiple tankless heaters.

Rinnai should be able to spec the system if you know the peak GPM demand and input temperature of the water.


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## PaulW (Jul 31, 2008)

Just throwing an option out there:
http://www.eternalwaterheater.com 

Paul


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

The Eternal Water Heater is just a small tank that flows around 4 change gallons of hot water once the tank has been depleted. Somehow I don't think it's a viable option in this application.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks for the replies, folks.
Still not sure which route we'll take but I've had replies from both Rinnai (called my cell phone! Go figure! and BW). Bradford White and A.O. Smith both have tank type heaters that'll do the job. In talking to A.O. Smith we got into heaters that last two years at best. Bradford White seems to be taking the same stance as AOS.

Personally I think that the tankless route is best for this outfit. I've sized it myself to two units (98LSi) and storage (either BW or AOS) but it is a bare minimum based on knowing how cheap the customer is and down-the-road hardships (when one unit fails, the one or two others won't be far behind.)
I don't want to be the guy with egg on my face after two years replacing the A.O.Smith with another 6 grand water heater!

Btw, tank type heaters are in the 60 - 90 gal range @ 155 - 210MBTUH.
I just checked day before yesterday w/ commercial customers that I'd added or replaced 80 - 120 gal storage tanks and so far 8 - 10 yrs good service. I've still got a Burkay 499MBtuh still in service from '92! From my records, any other place that I'd installed similar DHW capacity has either closed or had to change after 6 - 8 yrs. And in that time the city has changed our water supply to a chloraminated system of disinfection (chlorine and ammonia) which has shortened the lifespan of everything from faucet washers to flapper valves. Nothing seems to be lasting as long as they once did.


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## PaulW (Jul 31, 2008)

> The Eternal Water Heater is just a small tank that flows around 4 change gallons of hot water once the tank has been depleted. Somehow I don't think it's a viable option in this application.


Redwood- Take another look at it. I dont think you have a complete grasp of the unit and its capabilities.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

PaulW said:


> Redwood- Take another look at it. I dont think you have a complete grasp of the unit and its capabilities.


Yep!
I rechecked the specs...
100-degrees F Rate of Rise around 4 gallons per minute...:laughing:

Maybe the storage of the older original unit with 6.4 gallons will help out some....:laughing:

Perhaps you need to look at and read the OP and realize in Ontario, Canada in the winter he needs a 100 degree rise then look at the capabilities of what you suggested...:whistling2:

Ganging them units could get a little pricey too...


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## plumber666 (Sep 19, 2010)

I think there must be a few of us here who's love affair with tankless heaters is over. I'm one. Great in their place, but not always the right tool for the job.

I just put in a Trinity 200 000 btu boiler with a 100 gallon storage tank in a winery for washing down wine tanks. System works great. And we're talking 180 degree water. We have the luxury of using a vastly oversized domestic hot water storage tank for the water make up for the 180 system. 

The recovery rate is awesome. Trinity boilers are made in Canada, too.

You'll never get the gpm you need with Rinnais. We did some legwork before deciding on this type of system. High Eff/condensing boilers do the job better. Just remember to use 636 CPVC not PVC for the venting.


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## bigdawginc (Sep 6, 2010)

miguel said:


> thanks for the replies, folks.
> Still not sure which route we'll take but i've had replies from both rinnai (called my cell phone! Go figure! And bw). Bradford white and a.o. Smith both have tank type heaters that'll do the job. In talking to a.o. Smith we got into heaters that last two years at best. Bradford white seems to be taking the same stance as aos.
> 
> Personally i think that the tankless route is best for this outfit. I've sized it myself to two units (98lsi) and storage (either bw or aos) but it is a bare minimum based on knowing how cheap the customer is and down-the-road hardships (when one unit fails, the one or two others won't be far behind.)
> ...


 morning, u r on the right trac! I personally like the navien units u can tie both vevts together & use pvc! Goodluck!


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## Marauder11 (Oct 7, 2010)

*Tankless*

I think now this is just my opinion. Once you go with a storage tank and a tank less you are giving up efficiency . I would go with a 


Cyclone Xi™ Gas Water Heaters
96% efficiency dramatically lowers operating costs
Patented Dynamix Cyclonic Burner™ offers precise air/fuel mixing at point of ignition
Exhaust and air intake positioned so heater can be installed in corners or flush against wall
4 handy venting options using inexpensive 3˝ or 4˝ PVC pipe


A.O Smith is great at helping you size and these things have great recovery time.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Marauder11 said:


> I think now this is just my opinion. Once you go with a storage tank and a tank less you are giving up efficiency . I would go with a
> 
> 
> Cyclone Xi™ Gas Water Heaters
> ...


 

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