# Circulating pump problem.



## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

We installed 2 new 50 gallon gas water heaters that are run in balanced system. The customer has a Grundfos circ pump installed and ties into the first heater, at the drain valve. A few days later the customer stated that they did not have instant hot water anywhere except at the last shower in the house and on lav in master bath, separate places. Any suggestions? I bled out all of the air in the return line and water lines. I tested all fixtures with pump isolated an off and they all received hot water, it obviously just took longer. I also tried the set up in series. About to replace pump and check valve. Any thoughts?


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

johntheplumber said:


> We installed 2 new 50 gallon gas water heaters that are run in balanced system. The customer has a Grundfos circ pump installed and ties into the first heater, at the drain valve. A few days later the customer stated that they did not have instant hot water anywhere except at the last shower in the house and on lav in master bath, separate places. Any suggestions? I bled out all of the air in the return line and water lines. I tested all fixtures with pump isolated an off and they all received hot water, it obviously just took longer. I also tried the set up in series. About to replace pump and check valve. Any thoughts?


Drawing would help. What did you set up in a series, another pump in a house, why?


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

Gettinit said:


> Drawing would help. What did you set up in a series, another pump in a house, why?


I just switched the water heaters from balanced to in-series to see if possibly that was the prob. It is only temporarily set-up this way.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

johntheplumber said:


> I just switched the water heaters from balanced to in-series to see if possibly that was the prob. It is only temporarily set-up this way.


Never ever run them in series.


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

Gettinit said:


> Never ever run them in series.


I know that it puts undue stress on the first heater in the series. I am just trying things.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

johntheplumber said:


> I know that it puts undue stress on the first heater in the series. I am just trying things.


I hear ya. Drawing of the piping and a better more detailed description would help.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> If the last fixture has instant hot water then the return is working ...
> 
> The problem might be the distance of the branches off the hot water main...
> 
> Question ... Does the return also go to the ends of all the branch lines ?


....


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## antiCon (Jun 15, 2012)

one of our guys are having the same problem .. i havent seen the job yet ill post a pic if i go out to the job.. anyone have a diagram of a proper install for 2 heaters with a recirc?


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

antiCon said:


> one of our guys are having the same problem .. i havent seen the job yet ill post a pic if i go out to the job.. anyone have a diagram of a proper install for 2 heaters with a recirc?


With a layout of the house I am sure you will get at least 20 good ways to do it. :laughing:


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## heeterman1 (Feb 12, 2013)

Gettinit said:


> With a layout of the house I am sure you will get at least 20 good ways to do it. :laughing:


You can get it in any service manual check AO on line


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

heeterman1 said:


> You can get it in any service manual check AO on line


The ones I remember from long ago did not show the better near piping that most would use today, but it has been awhile. I doubt they will show you examples beyond near piping so in a big or spread out house they would be useless. Have some pics of the manual to show?


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## heeterman1 (Feb 12, 2013)

Gettinit said:


> The ones I remember from long ago did not show the better near piping that most would use today, but it has been awhile. I doubt they will show you examples beyond near piping so in a big or spread out house they would be useless. Have some pics of the manual to show?


I do but at home ill send after work,yed im working.


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

Our customers unit was working for years until we unplugged it for 2-3 hours while we replaced the water heaters.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

johntheplumber said:


> Our customers unit was working for years until we unplugged it for 2-3 hours while we replaced the water heaters.


 Why would you destroy a balanced system??


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

johntheplumber said:


> Our customers unit was working for years until we unplugged it for 2-3 hours while we replaced the water heaters.


How do you know .... You taking the customers word for it or did you try it yourself before replacing the tanks


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I would say take the pump off ...run return line to a drain ... Might want to a valve or sediment faucet on it and stat running the return line to the point you get hot water ... Then test each fixture to see if they get instant Hw with the return line running into a drain


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

OldSchool said:


> How do you know .... You taking the customers word for it or did you try it yourself before replacing the tanks


Oh I've been working for this customer for years. Great people. Honest. I worked on most of their plumbing and know firsthand that it has been working.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

johntheplumber said:


> Oh I've been working for this customer for years. Great people. Honest. I worked on most of their plumbing and know firsthand that it has been working.


Then why did you ruined the balenced system?


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> Then why did you ruined the balenced system?


Again, just trying things out before replacing pump. Ill put it back to balanced.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

A drawing or a balance and series system please. I really need to learn this and understand it. If installed them both but it was long ago and I had drawings. What do u mean balanced I will be installing two heaters with aqua stat and pump. Plz help. Thanks


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> A drawing or a balance and series system please. I really need to learn this and understand it. If installed them both but it was long ago and I had drawings. What do u mean balanced I will be installing two heaters with aqua stat and pump. Plz help. Thanks


 Same TEL going in and same TEL going out is a balanced system... and I do it without pump when possible.


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## antiCon (Jun 15, 2012)

Well we figured out the problem with our hot water heater issue single handle valve Price Pfister was bleeding hot to the cold side


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Single handle faucets are terrible about bleeding over. A rule of thumb is that if the pipe coming into the pump and out of the water htr is hot but its not at the fixture then the problem is between the two and almost always will be a case of a cross connection with the cold. Of course, I, too, would have been thrown off at first by the fact you had instant hot water in 2 separate areas but not all and the fact it eventually got hot is odd too. I would've thought that with a cross connection the affected fixtures would never get hot or not as hot as they should. In my opinion, the best way to pipe a recirc line is back into the cold inlet with a check valve between the tee and cold side ball valve. Though, in that case you should put a thermal expansion tank in. That system is better for servicing the tank and it makes it much easier to replace the tank in the future. 120 gallon commercial tanks are piped this way but with aqua stats. All just my opinion based on what I've seen and worked on over the years.


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

I was troubleshooting some other possibilities before replacing the pump, but as it turns out, it just needed to be replaced. Everything is working great. Thanks for all the advice.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

johntheplumber said:


> I was troubleshooting some other possibilities before replacing the pump, but as it turns out, it just needed to be replaced. Everything is working great. Thanks for all the advice.


Did you repiped back to "balanced" system???


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> Did you repiped back to "balanced" system???


The answer is..... Yes of course.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Same TEL going in and same TEL going out is a balanced system... and I do it without pump when possible.


Tel???? A drawing RJ ??? Come on man. Teach me a bit. Lets see a drawing. I'm stupid but not to stupid to learn. !!!


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

johntheplumber said:


> I was troubleshooting some other possibilities before replacing the pump, but as it turns out, it just needed to be replaced. Everything is working great. Thanks for all the advice.


I had a similar problem. We removed two forty gallons with a circ pump. Installed one seventy five gallon reconnected pump. A month later they said the hot water would bounce between hot and cool. Had the same brand pump as yours. Don't know what difference it makes but those are for closed loop systems. I installed a smaller pump they haven't called back. I figured the pump was going out being intermediate. The circ tied into the cold line. Replaced the check valve because the water is vary hard an calcium build up is bad. Worsbo pipe inside walls caked with scale. You did what I would of done.


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

antiCon said:


> Well we figured out the problem with our hot water heater issue single handle valve Price Pfister was bleeding hot to the cold side


Never seen this issue. How did you determine problem Anticon?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Tel???? A drawing RJ ??? Come on man. Teach me a bit. Lets see a drawing. I'm stupid but not to stupid to learn. !!!


Its a TEL and then


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

What is tel?????


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

Tex it's that thing you make calls on!!! Ya know a telephone. Lmao


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## antiCon (Jun 15, 2012)

redbeardplumber said:


> Never seen this issue. How did you determine problem Anticon?


It was a single handle shower valve, when the system was idol (not in use) the cold inlet to both heaters got hot at about a foot per minute.. The recirc line went to the master bath where the valve was. when we pulled the trim off the cold line to the valve was hot as well .. Replaced.. No more problem


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> What is tel?????


 TEL = Total Equivalent Length


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> TEL = Total Equivalent Length


Ok. Is that for in let and outlet of heater??


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> What is tel?????


Also, a balanced system with aqua stats are 2 water htrs that have the same length on the outlets and inlets between the tees and tank. It is done so that when there is a hot water demand it pulls equally from both tanks. The aqua stat for a circ pump is used so that it only circulates when the line cools to a set temp. It is much more efficient than running 24/7. The aqua stat is taped with tar paper tape onto the return line. It has a hi limit and low limit.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

Yes sir. It all even turns need to be the same.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Ok. Is that for in let and outlet of heater??


Yep, same length, same amount of elbows, tees,etc on inlet and outlet on 2 or more tanks/heaters, etc


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## TDB (Jun 25, 2008)

Round these parts we call that parallel piping

Nothing wrong with series piping. Depends on the building needs. Recovery, volume, and efficiency. Both "balanced" and "cascaded" have their place.

And if your recirculating line is copper, turn it off or replace with pex. You'll be doing your customer a favor. If copper, at least use low velocity pump...


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

TDB said:


> Round these parts we call that parallel piping
> 
> Nothing wrong with series piping. Depends on the building needs. Recovery, volume, and efficiency. Both "balanced" and "cascaded" have their place.
> 
> And if your recirculating line is copper, turn it off or replace with pex. You'll be doing your customer a favor. If copper, at least use low velocity pump...


Please tell me one reason for installing tanks in a series. Cold in, out the hot, back into the next water heaters cold and then the hot out to the system.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TDB said:


> Round these parts we call that parallel piping
> 
> Nothing wrong with series piping. Depends on the building needs. Recovery, volume, and efficiency. Both "balanced" and "cascaded" have their place.
> 
> And if your recirculating line is copper, turn it off or replace with pex. You'll be doing your customer a favor. If copper, at least use low velocity pump...


Now why would u need a pump if its installed properly?


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## TDB (Jun 25, 2008)

rjbphd said:


> Now why would u need a pump if its installed properly?


I've never seen a recirculating system without a pump/circulator

Care to explain?


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Yep, same length, same amount of elbows, tees,etc on inlet and outlet on 2 or more tanks/heaters, etc


One main in. Branches to all heaters and all hot out branches back to one main hot??? If more then two how do you make it even. Won't water go to the closets heaters. Am I over thinking this ?? A dang drawing RJ. Come on man. Can't u draw a bit. Lol


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TDB said:


> I've never seen a recirculating system without a pump/circulator
> 
> Care to explain?


Same principle as gravity heating system, ever seen one without the pump?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> One main in. Branches to all heaters and all hot out branches back to one main hot??? If more then two how do you make it even. Won't water go to the closets heaters. Am I over thinking this ?? A dang drawing RJ. Come on man. Can't u draw a bit. Lol


Can't draw on the phone but I do have books of drawings.


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## TDB (Jun 25, 2008)

I've read about gravity fed hydronic systems. Never seen one in person. thought that technology was a thing of the past. I can't believe anybody would install such a system for any application. Nothing like that up here in Alaska. I did learn about them right along with lead and oakum


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

TDB said:


> I've read about gravity fed hydronic systems. Never seen one in person. thought that technology was a thing of the past. I can't believe anybody would install such a system for any application. Nothing like that up here in Alaska. I did learn about them right along with lead and oakum


Yours would probably freeze before it started heating. I have seen one in NC. It took about 24 hours to get going.


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

Gettinit said:


> Please tell me one reason for installing tanks in a series. Cold in, out the hot, back into the next water heaters cold and then the hot out to the system.


First tank being used for supplemental space heating, without affecting the DHW capabilities of the downstream tank. Seen it done a couple times.

Also seen it done with the theory that you connect a recirculation line to the downstream tank, and it balances out the heating load. Used to work with one guy that was sold on that idea.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Can't draw on the phone but I do have books of drawings.


Dam it old man. Take a fukn pic of it post it Y u jacki g with. I'm gonna go cry now.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

JoshJ said:


> First tank being used for supplemental space heating, without affecting the DHW capabilities of the downstream tank. Seen it done a couple times.
> 
> Also seen it done with the theory that you connect a recirculation line to the downstream tank, and it balances out the heating load. Used to work with one guy that was sold on that idea.


Why connect a tank for supplemental heat with a domestic heater that could have done the job by itself?


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Dam it old man. Take a fukn pic of it post it Y u jacki g with. I'm gonna go cry now.


:laughing:


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

I'm headin to west of Chicago tonite. Gonna find RJ and steal his books!!! Lol


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

Gettinit said:


> Why connect a tank for supplemental heat with a domestic heater that could have done the job by itself?


You're asking why not size the single heater to be able to do both jobs properly? Or better yet, get a proper space heating appliance like a boiler?

I can only assume customer was trying to save costs. by using 2 - 40 gallons, instead of something actually approved for combi use. 

Not saying it's the best choice out there, but it's something I have seen. I think some people might also think that 2 tanks in series would help the recovery time of the downstream tank. But I think if it did, it would be marginal at best, and only on smaller draws.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TDB said:


> I've read about gravity fed hydronic systems. Never seen one in person. thought that technology was a thing of the past. I can't believe anybody would install such a system for any application. Nothing like that up here in Alaska. I did learn about them right along with lead and oakum


Not thing of the past if u installed it right ...


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Here RJ


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Here RJ


Yep, that's it dude. Nice drawing, tired of waiting for RJ?! I think he is still looking for his folding ruler!


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Yep. But I put the thermometers on the cold. Lol


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Yep. But I put the thermometers on the cold. Lol


That's OK they usually aren't worth a damn or installed so they don't read properly.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

I've put in digital solar powered thermometers befor


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

johntheplumber said:


> We installed 2 new 50 gallon gas water heaters that are run in balanced system. The customer has a Grundfos circ pump installed and ties into the first heater, at the drain valve. A few days later the customer stated that they did not have instant hot water anywhere except at the last shower in the house and on lav in master bath, separate places. Any suggestions? I bled out all of the air in the return line and water lines. I tested all fixtures with pump isolated an off and they all received hot water, it obviously just took longer. I also tried the set up in series. About to replace pump and check valve. Any thoughts?


It sounds like they are trying to make you responsible for a pre-existing condition. There is no way your change out could have impacted the dynamics of the recirc. system beyond some sediment in this or that aerator.

Like OS said...it's got to be that the other branches are too long off of the circulated trunk.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Here RJ


Cool, just like the drawings in the book I'm sending to ya.. I'm looking thru it and making some changes based on my expeirnces.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Hook it up bro.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I'm headin to west of Chicago tonite. Gonna find RJ and steal his books!!! Lol


U can take any book but leave my TLAOSH alone!!


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

What's that ??


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> What's that ??


 The Lost Art Of Steam Heating ... worth re-reading every winter


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

What's steam??? Lol. I've only out in one steam heat exchanger for dish room at a hospital. And some low pressure steam for humidifiers in ahu


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## Ghostmaker (Jan 12, 2013)

http://s20.postimage.org/49bw2et59/2_RESI_ATMOSPHERIC_VENT_MODELS_WITH_TOP_CONNECTI.jpg


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