# The magic box on the wall



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Why is it people will pay over $1000 to have an electric tankless water heater installed that will save them 3% to -10% on their water heating costs but you can't get them to spend $2500 on a solar heater that will save them 95% on heating costs?


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## grandpa (Jul 13, 2008)

The messiah in the White House will explain that for you.


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## U&I Plumber (Feb 15, 2009)

For the typical homeowner solar is a bit to complicated, and its a maintenance issue in the colder climates.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

In my experience, you need to know more about the finance end, than the plumbing. Most of those solar guys are of the used car sales variety...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Please explain how it's complicated?



U&I Plumber said:


> For the typical homeowner solar is a bit to complicated, and its a maintenance issue in the colder climates.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I'm just getting frustrated trying to sell something that sells itself and yet all people want is tankless water heaters.

And I do know what you mean about the former car salesmen turned solar pushers. In fact, we probably know the same people. I get allot of guys that bid against me out of Tampa.



ASUPERTECH said:


> In my experience, you need to know more about the finance end, than the plumbing. Most of those solar guys are of the used car sales variety...


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## pcplumber (Feb 10, 2009)

*For women!*

The tankless water heater has more appeal because women can rinse their hair for more than an hour. 

Last I heard a good solar water heater system is near $10,000 with piping, etc.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Around here they can be had for as low as $3500 installed and operate at a 95% solar fraction. This is Florida though, the sunshine state.



pcplumber said:


> The tankless water heater has more appeal because women can rinse their hair for more than an hour.
> 
> Last I heard a good solar water heater system is near $10,000 with piping, etc.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Up here in the great white north the solor and the tankless are just about useless. Very little sun during the winter and water that is almost frozen coming out of the tap. Can you say Glitches?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Yeah, it doesn't as well the farther you go north.


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## brad7596 (Nov 1, 2008)

i think solar is a con. im starting to see manufacturers refuse warranty because the roof is too hard to access or dangerous and if they do watch your labour cost go skywards.
i also think that the panels wont last the distance, how is it cost saving?
i have a storage hwu buy would seriously consider a heat pump system that works off the outside air temps with a circulating pump.
i dont think our govt is fair dinkum about climate change and saving energy.

cheers brad


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I have yet to see a panel go bad in under 10 years even in our corrosive water. I've pulled many that were installed in 1970 and the only reason they broke was from freeze damage due to a faulty freeze valve. When you consider that they pay for themselves in about 5 years, 10 to 40 years is a pretty acceptable life span don't you think?


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

Solar is no scam!!! I once removed and reinstalled one so a HO could have a new roof put on. Upon reinstallation there was *STEAMMMMM!!!* Boiling out of this baby as it sat on the roof while I piped to it.
Plus yesterday I put in a new mixing valve on a 30 yr. old system. That HO only complaint was that occasionally it would pop the thermal overload on the tstat.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

Protech said:


> I have yet to see a panel go bad in under 10 years even in our corrosive water. I've pulled many that were installed in 1970 and the only reason they broke was from freeze damage due to a faulty freeze valve. When you consider that they pay for themselves in about 5 years, 10 to 40 years is a pretty acceptable life span don't you think?


 I'm with you 100%.
Only thing that scares me some times is the "new" technology coming out. In some cases I think this just meens they found a way to make it cheaper, and I really would hate to put a 4-7.5k system in someones home and have any problems with it. Alot of these solar comp. are like the elec. tankless guys that build the units in there garages. Who knows how long they'll be around for. We stick to the big boys, not always the cheapest, but hopefully they'll be around for a while.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

ASUPERTECH said:


> Solar is no scam!!!  yesterday I put in a new mixing valve on a 30 yr. old system. That HO's only complaint was that occasionally it would pop the thermal overload on the tstat.


Is there any thing I can do to stop this? Cut out= 190. New thermostat. :confused1: I'm stumped.


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## brad7596 (Nov 1, 2008)

well my customers must just be plain unlucky! its just my experience and observation of the industry.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

ASUPERTECH said:


> Is there any thing I can do to stop this? Cut out= 190. New thermostat. :confused1: I'm stumped.


I know zip about solar. Could you put an actuated 3-way valve before the solar panel to prevent the water from going through it if the temp got too high. 

It would just loop to the outlet preventing the water from going through the panel. 

I guess that brings up. What would you then do with the super hot water in the panel?


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

brad7596 said:


> well My Customers Must Just Be Plain Unlucky! Its Just My Experience And Observation Of The Industry.


 what Types Of Problems Have You Seen? Or Had With Them.


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## brad7596 (Nov 1, 2008)

* panels leaking
* glass panel shattering


depending on roof ive had some fixed by the manufacturer, others with supplied parts with the customer chasing some one to do the work i seriously believe the warranty is interpreted to suit. like i said it could be bad luck or even bad customer and after sales service


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## brad7596 (Nov 1, 2008)

i notice now we are onto the evacuated tubes have you got an opinion on these?


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> I know zip about solar. Could you put an actuated 3-way valve before the solar panel to prevent the water from going through it if the temp got too high.
> 
> It would just loop to the outlet preventing the water from going through the panel.
> 
> I guess that brings up. What would you then do with the super hot water in the panel?


 You meen essentially a mixing valve? Gotta think on this one.
The water in the collector should be ok, it's being circulated with the aquastat-pump.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

brad7596 said:


> i notice now we are onto the evacuated tubes have you got an opinion on these?


Sorry youre a little above me here? Please elaborate. I'll catch up or get to doing some research.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I think that in the southern climates, solar begins to make sense but for most of the country the cost plus the lower solar azimuth makes solar impractical. The hydronic solar industry is little changed from 30 years ago. Though the panels are somewhat better they are only marginally so. The thing that has relly changed is that manufacturers like Calleffi and Viessman are packaging the tank, pumps and controllers as a unit that is very easy to install. This is a world better than when we had to pick stuff off the shelfe and put it together.


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## solarman.net (Feb 2, 2009)

ASUPERTECH said:


> In my experience, you need to know more about the finance end, than the plumbing. Most of those solar guys are of the used car sales variety...


 
I resent that comment . I am a solar guy ... ( well girl) And I am of the UTMOST INTEGRITY. 

Why is it that when people do not know about something ...when they have not educated themselves on something ... they tend to bad mounth it ?... 

This is not difficult folks ... It is not rocket science . There is not a lot of maintenance on the homeowners side ....REALLY . It does not take one ( rocket scientist) to install these units either . EDUCATE YOURSELVES . 

Granted you need to know about the MANY rebates that the end user will receive, it only helps you , if you help the customer understand . You also need to know what customers are NOT good candidates for Solar Hot Water Heating .. and there are plenty of people out there who are not .. Grandma Sally , who lives alone for, instance .. 

Solar Hot Water Heating is SMART .. it if FREE... It saves the customer money ... it saves the PLANET . It is our future !


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## solarman.net (Feb 2, 2009)

ASUPERTECH said:


> You meen essentially a mixing valve? Gotta think on this one.
> The water in the collector should be ok, it's being circulated with the aquastat-pump.


I don't know what units you are buying but .. our panels have a blow- off valve . In Florida , if the hot water is not getting used it could overheat .. hence the blow- off valve .. It is more likely to overheat if you have a system powered by PV rather that electric . Regardless, both systems have the blow-off .


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## solarman.net (Feb 2, 2009)

brad7596 said:


> i think solar is a con. im starting to see manufacturers refuse warranty because the roof is too hard to access or dangerous and if they do watch your labour cost go skywards.
> i also think that the panels wont last the distance, how is it cost saving?
> i have a storage hwu buy would seriously consider a heat pump system that works off the outside air temps with a circulating pump.
> i dont think our govt is fair dinkum about climate change and saving energy.
> ...


 
EDUCATION is they key , my friend . 
Depending on who and what you are buying ( made in China , or US ? ) the panels should last 20 yrs and are rated for 140 mph winds ... ( you will more likely see a roof blown off with a panel still attached than a panel blown off)


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Option 1: turn the differential controller down to 160F. This will reduce efficiency a bit though.

Option 2: drill hole on upper t-stat cover over high limit reset. Leave customer a popsicle stick to reach in there and reset it each summer.



ASUPERTECH said:


> Is there any thing I can do to stop this? Cut out= 190. New thermostat. :confused1: I'm stumped.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

If you are using the local supplier that everyone uses then that is not a temperature based blow off valve, it is only based off of presure.



solarman.net said:


> I don't know what units you are buying but .. our panels have a blow- off valve . In Florida , if the hot water is not getting used it could overheat .. hence the blow- off valve .. It is more likely to overheat if you have a system powered by PV rather that electric . Regardless, both systems have the blow-off .


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

No, he means a three way zone valve.



ASUPERTECH said:


> You meen essentially a mixing valve? Gotta think on this one.
> The water in the collector should be ok, it's being circulated with the aquastat-pump.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

You keep using the term "solar azimuth" but I don't think you are using the correct terminology. Azimuth is the sun's position in the sky relative to north, south east or west. A compass tells azimuth. What I think your are referring to is the solar angle of altitude. Altitude is what determines your air mass losses where azimuth tends to affect you incident angle losses more. It is the lack of air mass that makes solar more feasible in the south, as well as lower ambient air temps.



nhmaster3015 said:


> I think that in the southern climates, solar begins to make sense but for most of the country the cost plus the lower solar azimuth makes solar impractical. The hydronic solar industry is little changed from 30 years ago. Though the panels are somewhat better they are only marginally so. The thing that has relly changed is that manufacturers like Calleffi and Viessman are packaging the tank, pumps and controllers as a unit that is very easy to install. This is a world better than when we had to pick stuff off the shelfe and put it together.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Your differential controller is what limits tank temps. If it is a pv system then you need a mixing valve at the tank to limit the water temps to 140f. You should really have a mixing valve even if it is a differential controlled system. 

Someone suggested installing 3 way zone valves to route water around the collector, that serves no purpose as the water in the collector would stagnate without circulation. A snap switch in the case of a pv system could be used to limit tank temps, and in the case of a differential controlled systems nothing is needed because you can set the max circulation temp on the unit. 



solarman.net said:


> I don't know what units you are buying but .. our panels have a blow- off valve . In Florida , if the hot water is not getting used it could overheat .. hence the blow- off valve .. It is more likely to overheat if you have a system powered by PV rather that electric . Regardless, both systems have the blow-off .


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Then why the name "solarman.net"?



solarman.net said:


> I resent that comment . I am a solar guy ... ( well girl) And I am of the UTMOST INTEGRITY.
> 
> Why is it that when people do not know about something ...when they have not educated themselves on something ... they tend to bad mounth it ?...
> 
> ...


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

your very knowledgeable on this stuff Protech. I wish I knew more about solar but, I believe I'm too far north.


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## solarman.net (Feb 2, 2009)

Protech said:


> Then why the name "solarman.net"?


 
its a website .


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## solarman.net (Feb 2, 2009)

Protech said:


> If you are using the local supplier that everyone uses then that is not a temperature based blow off valve, it is only based off of presure.


 
The panel has a blow off valve ..as far as pressure I guess you could call it that ... If the water gets too hot , it expands and it blows off on the roof . 

We install mixing valves and blow-offs at the heater.


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## brad7596 (Nov 1, 2008)

mate try this 
http://endless-solar.com



this shows some of the stuff we are using , the tubes are lighter and i find easier to install with less weight on the roof. i find you can get away with these as a one man job. they all seem to be imported from china.

i think the panel system with tanks on the roof might be bypassed by these. they look neater,less weight and maybe less maintenance?. 

have you seen these yet?

cheers


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

That valve is a thermal expansion device. It keeps the collector from exploding in the event that someone closes the solar loop isolation valves. That is it's only function. It does not operate based on temperature. If the pressure goes above 150PSI is blows off. The temps can go as high as 350F in the summer and the valve will not let any water escape.

Look at your valve (should be cash acme brand as that is what they are using right now). If it doesn't have a temp probe 4" long coming out of the bottom then it is a pressure relief valve (opposed to a temperature AND pressure relief valve). The reason you shouldn't use a T/P valve in place of a PRV is the when the diff controller shuts the pump down due to max tank temp, the collector will stagnate within 15min of this event. When the collector temp goes above 215F the T/P valve will open up. This will be a daily occurrence. Due to the constant cycling(which they are not designed for) the T/P valve will go bad and you will have a service call. This is bad because you are now installing solar systems that are service intensive. That makes people say things like "solar is unreliable".

Luckily, I'm sure that you are mistaken about the valve. It's a pressure relieve valve only. Look at the valve. If it has a 4" long prong coming out of the bottom, then it's a T/P valve. If it does not have a prong, then it's a PRV (Pressure Relief Valve).



solarman.net said:


> The panel has a blow off valve ..as far as pressure I guess you could call it that ... If the water gets too hot , it expands and it blows off on the roof .
> 
> We install mixing valves and blow-offs at the heater.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Just in case that last post was to wordy: The temperature of the water has nothing to do with it. It just dumps pressure that has built up due to thermal expansion in the solar loop in the event some one isolates it from the rest of the system.

Good call on the mixing valves. Allot of people don't use them. I don't know how they sleep at night when their systems are putting out 200F degree water into people's houses with kids.
 



solarman.net said:


> The panel has a blow off valve ..as far as pressure I guess you could call it that ... If the water gets too hot , it expands and it blows off on the roof .
> 
> We install mixing valves and blow-offs at the heater.


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## solarman.net (Feb 2, 2009)

Protech said:


> That valve is a thermal expansion device. It keeps the collector from exploding in the event that someone closes the solar loop isolation valves. That is it's only function. It does not operate based on temperature. If the pressure goes above 150PSI is blows off. The temps can go as high as 350F in the summer and the valve will not let any water escape.
> 
> Look at your valve (should be cash acme brand as that is what they are using right now). If it doesn't have a temp probe 4" long coming out of the bottom then it is a pressure relief valve (opposed to a temperature AND pressure relief valve). The reason you shouldn't use a T/P valve in place of a PRV is the when the diff controller shuts the pump down due to max tank temp, the collector will stagnate within 15min of this event. When the collector temp goes above 215F the T/P valve will open up. This will be a daily occurrence. Due to the constant cycling(which they are not designed for) the T/P valve will go bad and you will have a service call. This is bad because you are now installing solar systems that are service intensive. That makes people say things like "solar is unreliable".
> 
> Luckily, I'm sure that you are mistaken about the valve. It's a pressure relieve valve only. Look at the valve. If it has a 4" long prong coming out of the bottom, then it's a T/P valve. If it does not have a prong, then it's a PRV (Pressure Relief Valve).


 
you are correct . It is a PRV valve . I forget that I am talking to experts ..


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## solarman.net (Feb 2, 2009)

Protech said:


> Just in case that last post was to wordy: The temperature of the water has nothing to do with it. It just dumps pressure that has built up due to thermal expansion in the solar loop in the event some one isolates it from the rest of the system.
> 
> Good call on the mixing valves. Allot of people don't use them. I don't know how they sleep at night when their systems are putting out 200F degree water into people's houses with kids.


 
Boy Howdy !!!


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

solarman.net said:


> I resent that comment . I am a solar guy ... ( well girl) And I am of the UTMOST INTEGRITY.
> 
> Why is it that when people do not know about something ...when they have not educated themselves on something ... they tend to bad mounth it ?...
> 
> ...


1. I've spent alot of time studying solar, but remember it is only a small percentage of my scope. 
My main issues with solar are:
1. Most of my WH calls come from leaking or not working water heaters, the HO won't wait a day or two to get back into hot water, and I can't blame them. 
2. It's a bit pricey and yes I know the pay back and the envro thing. But it's still alot of cash out of pocket.
3. We both know that there are "guys" out there in both our proffessions that are used car sale man. I've just run into a higher percentage of solar salesman, than plumbing salesman.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

Protech said:


> Your differential controller is what limits tank temps. If it is a pv system then you need a mixing valve at the tank to limit the water temps to 140f. You should really have a mixing valve even if it is a differential controlled system.
> 
> Someone suggested installing 3 way zone valves to route water around the collector, that serves no purpose as the water in the collector would stagnate without circulation. A snap switch in the case of a pv system could be used to limit tank temps, and in the case of a differential controlled systems nothing is needed because you can set the max circulation temp on the unit.


Thanks for your input here, glad to have the help. I reinstalled a mixing valve on the outlet side of the heater- "to the house" the solar tank has side outlets for the solar circ. what is this differential controller, and how is it adj.?
This is a 30 yr. old system
no pv.
I'm getting 190+ water into the tank. 
popping the thermal overload on the thermostat, = cold water in the morning.
Also installed 2 new Vacum breakers on the roof top collecters.
He (my friend) said every once in a while, he would have to rest the therm. but over the last few months it was getting more and more. He put a new therm. on, and I checked it out, it's ok. only difference is the old one whent to 175' F the new one only gets to 150' F but they both trip off at 109..
What do you think????


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

This is the most common diff controller in our area.
http://kingsolar.com/catalog/mfg/goldline/gl30.html
http://www.goldlinecontrols.com/Support/manuals/092068B_SS.pdf

Turn the dial on the right inside the case down to 155F




ASUPERTECH said:


> Thanks for your input here, glad to have the help. I reinstalled a mixing valve on the outlet side of the heater- "to the house" the solar tank has side outlets for the solar circ. what is this differential controller, and how is it adj.?
> This is a 30 yr. old system
> no pv.
> I'm getting 190+ water into the tank.
> ...


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

Thanks, Can you meet me in the chat rm?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

sorry, i had just went to bed. maybe today or monday night.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

I understand. Just want to be clear on all my options and I'm glad this is a friend cause I'ld be upset with myself sofar if it was taking me this long to figure this out for a paying costomer.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

Followed those links, good stuff man good stuff now I can atleast do some trouble shooting. Friend called me Sat. morning after the cold snap, only had 100'F out of the tank, I think the pump ran all night.


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