# Gate Valves Or Ball Valves-vote!



## WestCoastPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Gates or Balls, vote and explain. :thumbsup:


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## SPH (Nov 4, 2008)

Ball Valves, Red & White to be specific, MAS are garbage.

if you are soldering a ball valve make sure you have it cracked halfways open to avoid damaging the internals from the heat. Anything over 1 1/2" should have a damp rag wrapped around it while soldering.

Gate Valves for anything under 2 1/2" are garbage. Ball valve should be used, and if you need to throttle the pipe use a globe valve.


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## Dr Steevil (Jan 25, 2009)

SPH said:


> Ball Valves, Red & White to be specific, MAS are garbage.
> 
> if you are soldering a ball valve make sure you have it cracked halfways open to avoid damaging the internals from the heat. Anything over 1 1/2" should have a damp rag wrapped around it while soldering.
> 
> Gate Valves for anything under 2 1/2" are garbage. Ball valve should be used, and if you need to throttle the pipe use a globe valve.


Agreed.

Never EVER use a gate valve for any application requiring throttling! They are purely isolation valves requiring to be either fully open or fully shut. You really shouldn't use a ball valve for that either as this results in increased velocity through the opening which could erode the sides of the opening, but shouldn't hurt the overall ability to provide isolation. Globe valves by design are best for throttling flow but provide the least positive isolation.

I prefer ball valves to gate valves for isolation purposes but only because in most plumbing applications they don't get used very often and a gate valve can be a real bear to shut after its been sitting there for years. A ball valve tends to be easier and doesn't need to be turned a thousand times to shut!


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

I do not like gate valves said a man.
I do not like them Sam I Am.
I do not like crumbling handles in the sand.
I do not like them Sam I Am.
I do not like water running against my plan.
I do not like them Sam I Am.
I do not like them in a poll.
I do not like them on any pole.
I do not like gate stems at all, for one day I know that they will all fall.
I do not like the many turns it takes, to only find out this thing is making me IRATE.
So as you see O friends of Sam, I do not like them in my plan.

So with all that dislike I can say this....
one might be more liked if he can shut it off with a quarter twist!!!


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Ball valves don't break and seize up like gates.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

The elderly can operate a ball valve, unlike a gate.


A house roughed in in new construction, with gate valves usually indicates that plumber is running on tight margins and does not care about down the road for that customer, knowing the circumstances that those valves were cheaper than ball valves, and cause the most problems for the customer when they need that valve to work in the most important time; *emergencies*.


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## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

Ball valves all the way.

However, dropped gate valves have been very good for business. Especially when an entire building needs to be drained down.


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## PlumberDave (Jan 4, 2009)

see reasons above, ball valves only. I have the same gate valves on truck that came with my truck 5 years ago.


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## Kyle181 (Sep 5, 2008)

Ball valves.. Mostly because gate valves suck, and primarily because ball valves are way better


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## rex (Jun 13, 2008)

just replace a 3" ball valve in an apartment building case it wouldnt shut off wouldnt even move......i like ball valves anyways


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Durability, ease of operation, and no washers to wear out


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Gates on steam. Balls on everything else.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I'll tell you I really like these valves...http://www.apollovalves.com/companyprofile.asp
I've been using them for a kazillion years and have had really good luck with them...



















Damn good valves if you ask me...


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

WOW, the voting is much closer than I thought it would be.

Mark:no:


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## arkyplumber (Jan 10, 2009)

ball valves for most cases, but they each do serve a purpose.


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## gabby (Jan 27, 2009)

Will not use a gate valve ever worst valve ever invented!!!!


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Those who are critical of gate valves I believe are really critical of cheap gate valves. Cheap ball valves are much better than cheap gate valves without a doubt. However, if you are really looking for a quality SOV, which will hold up to industrial use, you go with a quality gate valve. There is a reason you don't see 8" ball valves being used. The trick with all gate valves is they need to be exercised on a regular basis.

Mark


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## BatonRougePlumb (Nov 21, 2008)

*Still talking about these gate valves!*



ToUtahNow said:


> Those who are critical of gate valves I believe are really critical of cheap gate valves. Cheap ball valves are much better than cheap gate valves without a doubt. However, if you are really looking for a quality SOV, which will hold up to industrial use, you go with a quality gate valve. There is a reason you don't see 8" ball valves being used. The trick with all gate valves is they need to be exercised on a regular basis.
> 
> Mark


Glad I'm not on trial for murder and this forum is my jury. I'd be in prison the rest of my life while waiting for the verdict.

And I did not know Nibco's were bronze. They do look sort of brown now that you mentioned it. You are very knowledgeable. 

This means we have been lying to our customers for many years.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

BatonRougePlumb said:


> This means we have been lying to our customers for many years.


 

No, 


I think you're smart enough to understand that they have a tendency to lock up, like the majority already know. What's more than obvious is that you sell them purely for the anticipation of replacing them every so often as it's easy to understand that a ball valve would keep the average plumber away from the main line, ever again.


Two entirely different schools of thinking, just like a chess match of who's smarter, who's making more money.

In the broader sense of the moral compass,


Who offered the best product or service for the money. 


That's a debate to all it's own, which will heavily divide this forum of plumbers.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Ball valves on 3'' and under. Gates over that.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

There's an old saying that gate valves are designed to leak so they won't freeze up. 

I replace a lot of gate valves, and much of the problem comes from the way the world has gone in the last 43 years. When I started, we used primarily gate valves on commercial work. But they weren't cheap. The specs always called for things like union bonnets.

Enter the cheap Chinese clones. We've all seen them. People go down to their local hardware store and pick up a valve. To them, it looks as good as anything. And heck, only $4.50. These valves are nothing like the split gates of my youth. Cheap yellow brass, junky packing, thin bodies. 

Most of the gate valves that I replace have stems that have long since gone to pieces, nothing left to work with. Then there are the old Nibco sprinkler valves - sort of like a gate valve with an o-ring for packing and a big rubber stopper that went so hard ten years earlier that you couldn't seal anything with it if you used a torch to soften it and a hammer to drive it home. I run into those all the time and there isn't much you can do but replace. 

Some ball valves are better than others, and I have often used the Red & White and found them to be pretty good. I think I have Watts on the truck right now.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

I'm a ball valve guy. That said, I have to admit that a well made union bonnet bronze gate valve will give many years of service. The names Stockham, Crane, Kennedy and Milwaukee come to mind. I've seen more then a few frozen ball valve due to lime buildup. Plus, the remarks about cheap gate valves can be applied to ball valves as well. Even a manufacturer as reputable as Red-White has valves at a variety of prices, reflecting the quality of raw materials used in their production.


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## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

Sunday - Our on-call plumber is responding to a dropped gate valve now. Two story condo building, luckily only one other person is home. :thumbup:

Cha-ching!


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Ok, I'll reveal my ignorance. When everyone is referring to a "frozen" gate valve, are you referring to the tendency of gate valve stems to stick in place because they were operated all the way until the handle stops in either the open or close position and then left there for a long period of time so that when you try to operate it again, it does not want to move? Obviously if you want the flow stopped then you close it all the way but how many times do you come upon a valve that is in the closed position? I always instruct my customers first that they will be better served in general by replacing with ball valves but if they don't want to do that I explain that these valves should not remain completely open and that if they ever have to operate it, they should back off of fully open by 1/4 - 1/2 turn so that the stem will not stick in place over time. By far though, when I replace these valves, it is because I have been called for some reason that requires me to close them but discover that they will not completely shut off the water. I will only turn them so far because I have broken the stem on one years ago trying to get it to shut off. Since then I sell them a ball valve if it won't stop the flow or I turn it off at the street.


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## WestCoastPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Plumbcrazy said:


> Sunday - Our on-call plumber is responding to a dropped gate valve now. Two story condo building, luckily only one other person is home. :thumbup:
> 
> Cha-ching!


 
thats so funny, I have installed gates before in commercial, usually either space or thats what was required for 1 reason or another and I never put them right side up, always upside down.

gotta love it!!

On the subject of Nibcos bronze gate valves, bronze is supposed to be fased out by 2010 from our water system, isn't it?

no more bronze in 2010? thats what I heard, along with the 1.26 gallon toilets that will be required, no more 1.6, they will be illegal.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

jjbex said:


> Ball valves on 3'' and under. Gates over that.


We use lug type butterfly valvs over 3". They shut off quite well. Buying the CSW flanges add to the cost though. Although, we do more victaulic on the big stuff tha anything.


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## trick1 (Sep 18, 2008)

I can't remember the last time that I used a gate valve....the one time that I'll never forget regarding a gate valve, though is about a repair that I was making to a unit in a strip mall. I had to replace a bad angle stop serving a lavatory and I had to shut off the unit in order to do so. The gate valve was placed in an upside down configuration (handle facing down). When I began to turn it, the handle and stem came flying out and the buildings 100 psi+ came out of the bonnet nut!!!! When I came to my senses, I found the stem, forced it into the bonnet, and chocked a 2"x4" between the valve and the floor until I could shut off the complex

Needless to say, I like ball valves. Too many people apply too much heat to them and melt the teflon packings that seal the ball, though.


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## WestCoastPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

trick1 said:


> I can't remember the last time that I used a gate valve....the one time that I'll never forget regarding a gate valve, though is about a repair that I was making to a unit in a strip mall. I had to replace a bad angle stop serving a lavatory and I had to shut off the unit in order to do so. The gate valve was placed in an upside down configuration (handle facing down). When I began to turn it, the handle and stem came flying out and the buildings 100 psi+ came out of the bonnet nut!!!! When I came to my senses, I found the stem, forced it into the bonnet, and chocked a 2"x4" between the valve and the floor until I could shut off the complex
> 
> Needless to say, I like ball valves. Too many people apply too much heat to them and melt the teflon packings that seal the ball, though.


 

I had this happen, 2 different gates in an apt building for 2 different electric water heaters. nice spray cam out until I shut the building down.


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

Roast Duck said:


> The elderly can operate a ball valve, unlike a gate.
> 
> 
> A house roughed in in new construction, with gate valves usually indicates that plumber is running on tight margins and does not care about down the road for that customer, knowing the circumstances that those valves were cheaper than ball valves, and cause the most problems for the customer when they need that valve to work in the most important time; *emergencies*.


Unfortunately gate valves are not that much terribly cheaper than ball valves. 

It's worth the extra cost even if it's just for your own peace of mind if you have to go to the job later on a call back.

:thumbup:


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## M5Plumb (Oct 2, 2008)

I likes me ball valves thanks you bery much!!! Easier fail safe operation!!! No leak by.


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## PEXguru (Feb 12, 2009)

*Here's Why*

Gate valves are last century. Most suppliers are getting rid of these because B.V's are better in every way. Just trust the guys above who said the same thing.
Here's what i look for when chosing them:
1. Only get the ones w/ packing nut.
2. Never buy "made in Europe" - assembled a test kit couple weeks ago, the only think that was leaking is the "european" valve. The rest of the parts were china - funny, huh?
3. Full port only (except maybe for st. steel in some cases)
4. WOG 600 psi Only (read them - some say they're 400)
5. Manufacturer doesn't matter - majority of them are imports anyways.
Comments, anyone?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I ran across the first ball valve I couldn't shut off.


I cut it out, inspected it, and all I could figure is the plumber moved the ball valve before it cooled down and distorted the teflon gland.

The teflon packing gland was protruding about an 1/8" and wouldn't let it shut for nothing. I blame it on installer error.


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## westsideplumber (Mar 29, 2009)

*Ball*

They are just better


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Roast Duck said:


> I ran across the first ball valve I couldn't shut off.
> 
> 
> I cut it out, inspected it, and all I could figure is the plumber moved the ball valve before it cooled down and distorted the teflon gland.
> ...


I would too!

Teflon is okay for 500 degrees which is considerably more than the temp for solder. To have that much heat that far into the valve body says way too much heat...:whistling2:

Take that man's torch away!


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Ball Valves Rock. I rock. See the connection here? If valves were meant to have a gate, then were all getting a wet ass on our way through the door into heaven.


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## leak1 (Mar 25, 2009)

love those ball valves, BUT REMEMBER- sticking & broken gate valves are job security!!!! * your BFF- LEAK 1 *


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## leak1 (Mar 25, 2009)

I Wonder If They Make Blue Ball Valves With Threads!

Something A Blueballed Monkey Could Operate.
Thread The Balls Toodstranger Dont Forget!!!!!!!!!


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## plumbing ninja (Jan 15, 2012)

Airgap said:


> Gates on steam. Balls on everything else.


We prefer Globes on steam down in the NZ! 
Bolted Bonnet Class 800/API 600 Forged Steel half Stellite Trim or Union bonnet with Stainless Trim. Bellows sealed stem would be the icing on the cake.
Globe seat can be relapped!


Under 150psi can use Carbon Steel 2 pce or 3 pce Ball valves, SS Ball Class 800 with Glass Filled Telfon or Carbon Filled Teflon Seats


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

Ball valves, for the reasons so eloquently stated earlier. No breaking handles trying to turn 'em off, no leaking around the stem. Ball valves.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

plumbing ninja said:


> We prefer Globes on steam down in the NZ!
> Bolted Bonnet Class 800/API 600 Forged Steel half Stellite Trim or Union bonnet with Stainless Trim. Bellows sealed stem would be the icing on the cake.
> Globe seat can be relapped!
> 
> Under 150psi can use Carbon Steel 2 pce or 3 pce Ball valves, SS Ball Class 800 with Glass Filled Telfon or Carbon Filled Teflon Seats


Talking about digging deep to revive a dead thread.


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## plumbing ninja (Jan 15, 2012)

On the bottom end of the world we're 3 yrs behind the rest of the world! Got me one them new VCR machines for Xmas!!!


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

Ball


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## Mr Plumber (Oct 20, 2011)

I always use ball valves even on the jobs that may be bid a little cheaper. I can't stand walking into a house a year latter after a new construction guy and the gate valves start to leak or break.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

ball valve:yes:


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## piper1 (Dec 16, 2011)

ball values... because my boss, said so..


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

piper1 said:


> ball values... because my boss, said so..


 






I have heard of family values. Are ball values similar?....:laughing:


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## piper1 (Dec 16, 2011)

lmao..


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## antiCon (Jun 15, 2012)

i dont know of any plumber in service that wouldn't want to use a ball or globe valve


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

I meant to quote your post Piper but I hit the 'edit' button accidentally and that's why it says 'last edited by tommy plumber'. I then hit the 'quote' button but when a mod does anything to a member's post, it leaves a footprint.


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## piper1 (Dec 16, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> I have heard of family values. Are ball values similar?....:laughing:





Tommy plumber said:


> I meant to quote your post Piper but I hit the 'edit' button accidentally and that's why it says 'last edited by tommy plumber'. I then hit the 'quote' button but when a mod does anything to a member's post, it leaves a footprint.


 i would'nt want to correct it now. the type-o is funnier:thumbsup:


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

SPH said:


> Ball Valves, Red & White to be specific, MAS are garbage.


I used to use only Toyo Red & White balls, but lately they've gotten a bit cheap. Lately I use almost all Kitz. Pretty good valves.


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Watts and Legend ball valves here. 6$-9$ bucks here. We don't touch gate valves when we see them, water gets shut off at curb cock.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

plumbing ninja said:


> On the bottom end of the world we're 3 yrs behind the rest of the world! Got me one them new VCR machines for Xmas!!!


That's 3 decades !!


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Qball415 said:


> Watts and Legend ball valves here. 6$-9$ bucks here. We don't touch gate valves when we see them, water gets shut off at curb cock.


Is that import or domestic??


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

futz said:


> I used to use only Toyo Red & White balls, but lately they've gotten a bit cheap. Lately I use almost all Kitz. Pretty good valves.


I've use kitz. Two 3" sweat on a lift station. They where nice. It was the first time I heard if them. About 3 yrs ago. How long have they been around?? Red and white ??? I prefer domestic nibco. If youv got the dough!!!


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I use ball valves because it is totally awesome that there is such a thing as a BALL valve. :laughing:


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

I do Residential plumbing

Gate Valve make me lots of money and are PITA and a POS

I only install Ball Valves


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> How long have they (Kitz) been around? Red and white?


Red & White has been around for as long as I can remember. Kitz maybe too, but my supplier only started selling them maybe eight or ten years ago? I don't remember.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Is that a serious question? Can anybody even name one single advantage to using a gate valve?


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Job security And if they are spect. I see them spect a lot on drain valves for air handlers FCU guess the engineer is old


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## lead lover (Jul 18, 2012)

Ball, although I've seen many that have handles that break, and leak at the body where you would take it apart to change the teflon seat. And I'm talking one piece valve.


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## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

I'm going with.... ahh...Butterfly. yeah, thats the ticket.:laughing:


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Rando said:


> I'm going with.... ahh...Butterfly. yeah, thats the ticket.:laughing:


Hell yea on hydronic no gaskets needed just bolted up but if tapped u need studds not bolts


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## plumbing ninja (Jan 15, 2012)

plumberkc said:


> Is that a serious question? Can anybody even name one single advantage to using a gate valve?


Slow opening n closing...no water hammer risk

No trapped media in cavity, less prone to frozen pipe probs


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## plumbing ninja (Jan 15, 2012)

Rando said:


> I'm going with.... ahh...Butterfly. yeah, thats the ticket.:laughing:


Prone to water hammer

Seat or disc material critical, restriction on temp limit or media use?
i.e Nitrile/NBR line goods to approx 80 Deg C
EPDM cannot be used in Air line or oil lines if hydrocarbons present
Ali bronze disc for seawater


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

plumbing ninja said:


> No trapped media in cavity, less prone to frozen pipe probs


Really? You've never come across a gate valve that had corrosion built up so the gate doesn't shut completely? Seems like EVERY gate valve I come across has this problem.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> Really? You've never come across a gate valve that had corrosion built up so the gate doesn't shut completely? Seems like EVERY gate valve I come across has this problem.


Not only that, damn stem stripped after customer strong armed it on those el cheapo gate valve!


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## plumbing ninja (Jan 15, 2012)

RW Plumbing said:


> Really? You've never come across a gate valve that had corrosion built up so the gate doesn't shut completely? Seems like EVERY gate valve I come across has this problem.


The cavity in the bottom of the body allows silt or debris to sit in there esp in the metal metal seated gates, so it's next to impossible to close! In the larger size resilient seated gate valves no cavity, theoretically wont have prob shutting closed??? touch wood, finger crossed, hail mary etc


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## phishfood (Nov 18, 2012)

I like and install ball valves. But IIRC, IPC requires gate valves specifically on sump and ejector pumps.


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## robwilliams (May 6, 2011)

Ball valves for us. But, only with the shark bite connections :thumbup:
That way, you don't have to protect them when soldering. Also, you don't have to worry if the main doesn't hold. :laughing:


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## Rcplumber (Feb 27, 2011)

Ball valves all the way unless on hydronics u need a gate valve to regulate the flow and shark bite ball valve HOW HOT is your tourch soldier doesn't need to b that hot if you have to braze it use male adpter and threaded ball valve


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## phishfood (Nov 18, 2012)

Rcplumber said:


> hydronics u need a gate valve to regulate the flow and


Say what?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Rcplumber said:


> Ball valves all the way unless on hydronics u need a gate valve to regulate the flow and shark bite ball valve HOW HOT is your tourch soldier doesn't need to b that hot if you have to braze it use male adpter and threaded ball valve


What???? Gate valve are used for only in fully opened or fully closed position!! They are never designed for trottling the flow!


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## Rcplumber (Feb 27, 2011)

Yes u r right it's globe valves not gate sorry


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