# Advice on repair



## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

Have a repair to make.

Galv Tee is rotted and leaking. Repair is about 15' up in the mechanical room with little room to reach, let alone work. Conventional tools (cutters, threaders, wrenches), wont work as there simply isn't the room with the surrounding mechanicals (not pictured but there).

The Tee is 6" with a 4" branch. Off the top it's bushed to 2 1/2 copper. There is a bit of room to play with the 4" branch and a little on the copper side.

The kicker here is it's a busy hospital and limiting downtime is critical. It will require at least the shut down of one of three wings - maybe everything as they aren't quite sure how everything is fed from there and the drawings aren't any help to that end. I strongly suspect we are going to lose the entire facility but, their maintenance crew thinks it's one wing. They are requesting a maximum downtime of 3 hours.

Any suggestions for making this happen?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Good luck ...

You might have to go back further where you can get at the pipe better..

Run the new pipe first to where you can tie in easy...


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Looks like a nightmare to me. 

Your gonna have to get a sawzall on that galvanized wherever you can, even if it's 10' away. Then take it to the next joint and I would repipe in copper. It would be much easier.


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

OldSchool said:


> Good luck ...
> 
> You might have to go back further where you can get at the pipe better..
> 
> Run the new pipe first to where you can tie in easy...



This is the only exposed spot within dozens of yards on the 6". It disappears into a wall just out of the frame of the picture and into another room - buried above air handling duct work right back to the main.

The copper and 4" disappear above ductwork as well pretty much right where you see in the picture - never to be seen again...


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

It is not going to happen in 3 hours


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

I'm wondering if cutting in a saddle tap and running around the problem area until it can be fixed full size would be viable?

Would still have to isolate the repair area somehow anyway. Not sure if that way would be a step ahead really or not...

Just thinking out loud here.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

MarkToo said:


> ... They are requesting a maximum downtime of 3 hours.
> 
> Any suggestions for making this happen?


Oh my glob! What a nightmare! I'd be sure to let them know that the 3 hours thing very probably won't happen, unless everything goes perfectly. If the tee is that corroded then the pipe is likely just as bad. I predict crumbling threads on the pipe ends.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

So what is going on with the tee just a pin hole ????

If so why not weld it


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

I was thinking saddle and cap 6" then you could valve it and get water back on while you tie in the 2 other branches. But not in 3 hrs.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

Megalug but you will need to get to the good pipe elsewhere. The pipe on that wall will likely be crap due to the concrete.....wouldn't even think about removing any of the blocks.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Is brazing it with brass rod an option? I've never done it on galvanized but have made emergency repairs on a steel coil in a pressure washer that way.


3 hour commitment? :laughing: You might be waiting that long just for it to get dry enough to work with.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

cut the floor above?? idk 

whatever you get paid to fix that isnt enuff

cant wait to see pic of the repair !

good luck


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

I have to assume a weld attempt would just make it worse. I'm guessing it'd just blow through.

Brazing may be an option. Just not sure if I could make a braze stick given the circumstances.

I enjoy a challenge and there are a few things conspiring to make it a good one. I don't like not having a fallback position on this one - especially when it directly affects critical healthcare.



GREENPLUM said:


> cant wait to see pic of the repair !
> 
> good luck



You and me both.


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

no way you are going to repair that and flush the lines of debris after repair in 3 hours !

is this on a domestic water line ?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I don't know about unscrewing that 6" pipe ... You need leverage...

Might be able to take them apart using a come along and some large pipe wrenches ...

But your window of opportunity is small to just make an attempt...

You got one chance at this and the solution has to be right

I wonder if aquarise and propress would have solution for you...

Does propress make 6" fittings for galvanized


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

This might be a solution http://www.cimberiovalve.com/downloads/marketing/fl_brochure.pdf


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

oldschool said:


> this might be a solution http://www.cimberiovalve.com/downloads/marketing/fl_brochure.pdf


1/2"-2"


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Or this

Cut Grooving Tool - VG Vic-Groover®
Designed for manual or power cut grooving of a single size. Tools are supplied with a ratchet handle for manual operation. Tools 2"/50mm and larger are supplied with a power yoke.

The VG Vic-Groover® can groove:

Aluminum
Carbon Steel
Ductile Iron
PVC Plastic
Stainless Steel
Style: VG Vic-Groover


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

OldSchool said:


> Or this
> 
> Cut Grooving Tool - VG Vic-Groover®
> Designed for manual or power cut grooving of a single size. Tools are supplied with a ratchet handle for manual operation. Tools 2"/50mm and larger are supplied with a power yoke.
> ...



I would have a back up for this. I would be worried the galvanized lines aren't in good enough shape.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I would plan a repipe of the entire line...

That being said I would use aquarise ipex pipe...

Run the mains and tee in ...

I think the Vic would be the way to go about the repair but who know how bad everything really is ...

Some times you are just better to walk away when their demands are unreasonable...

This job is going to cost them a fortune ...

This is what I would do if the sky was the limit ..I would freeze the 6" main ... Drill in a saddle on the 6" pipe ... Tie in the two pipes ...

Now the water is back on and you got all the time in the world to deal with getting the tee off and capping it ...

As long as the pipe stayed frozen... I would use liquid nitrogen to freeze the pipe 

Worst comes to worse have a guy that can high pressure weld a cap on the 6"


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

3 hours? 

You'll be lucky if you get it done in 30.

Or 3 days. 

Have a backup plan. 

Then a backup for the backup.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

You'll need a ridgid compund leverage wrench...way stronger then a 48 wrench and cheater bar. Good luck.


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## red_devil (Mar 23, 2011)

That pinhole on the tee? drill it and put it in a boiler plug Hopefully the galvs ok for that. Have a back up plan in case


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

good luck getting that done in 3 hours


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

Cut the tee as far back as you can and use a Hymax coupling to attach a new nipple and tee on the 6 inch and build the rest to it with a Propress. It will probaly take a hour just to get it drained down.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

I've used these with good results. They are restrained fittings and very narrow so you won't need much space. You'll probably have to chip out some of the cinder-block, though.

http://www.victaulic.com/en/products-services/products/style-99-plain-end-roust-a-bout-coupling/


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

PlungerJockey said:


> Cut the tee as far back as you can and use a Hymax coupling to attach a new nipple and tee on the 6 inch and build the rest to it with a Propress. It will probaly take a hour just to get it drained down.


Best solution so far


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Cut out tee. Have new tee with pups on all sides union the copper for sure and 4 in if you can then on the six use one of these it's like a bolt dresser but bolt goes across pipe. Very good product and they come in a range of sizes as long as you can get a wrench on the repair coupling and unions and saw on the pipe. It should work. Put one on the 4" too if you need too. Pre fab tee with pups and unions. Mark pipe for tee to fit in. Before you ever shut down and install while still dripping. Matters how wet you want to get. A deep as socket and ratchet with extintion mite help. And a torque wrench too.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

PlungerJockey said:


> Cut the tee as far back as you can and use a Hymax coupling to attach a new nipple and tee on the 6 inch and build the rest to it with a Propress. It will probaly take a hour just to get it drained down.


Yes. I should of read ur post. We are on the same page. Hymax. Great product


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Yes. I should of read ur post. We are on the same page. Hymax. Great product


Dresser style coupling is the only way to go. But if it was me I would use a dresser coupling with a flange on one side for the 6" and then a 4" flange for the 4" pipe then pipe it all in copper this way you could prefab every thing . trying to tighten any thing on that size of pipe would hell in a tight spot.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

hymax has flange adapters too and would be a smaller profile and easier to tighten it up .


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Ok I'm seeing it now. But you still have to tighten the flange bolts after you slip the couplings on rite??


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> I would plan a repipe of the entire line...
> 
> That being said I would use aquarise ipex pipe...
> 
> ...


I was thinking the freezing was good also. The average shop doesn't have freezing stuff that big but i have seen it advertized for larger pipes. I would want it froze just because they don't really know how much of the building will be effected. We used to have the larger Ridgid one (I think it could only do 1.5" in steel) Didn't use it that much but when we needed it, it was priceless.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

yea but with the flanges you could easily prefab everything and pull it up to you with a chain fall. Its the pipe fitter in me that likes the flanges.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

justme said:


> hymax has flange adapters too and would be a smaller profile and easier to tighten it up .


Why add the flange? Why not use a Hymax coupling and tighten 2 bolts as opposed to 9 bolts.

Everyone knows flanges are sexy, but with the pipe size reducing after the tee I don't see why it would be nessasary.

With a Hymax coupling you could leave the spacer in one side and transition from steel straight to copper.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

PlungerJockey said:


> Cut the tee as far back as you can and use a Hymax coupling to attach a new nipple and tee on the 6 inch and build the rest to it with a Propress. It will probaly take a hour just to get it drained down.


Looks to me like a good solution. Watched their video. Looks like a good fitting. Pretty slick.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

PlungerJockey said:


> Why add the flange? Why not use a Hymax coupling and tighten 2 bolts as opposed to 9 bolts.
> 
> Everyone knows flanges are sexy, but with the pipe size reducing after the tee I don't see why it would be nessasary.
> 
> With a Hymax coupling you could leave the spacer in one side and transition from steel straight to copper.


I like the idea of running some 5/8" allthread rod from the flange back to the six inch with a riser clamp . I now those hymax are probably pretty good just like dresser couplings but the service plumber in me says clamp that thing down so it doesn't move. then you could use a 4" threaded flange for the 4" line then tie everything together with copper. The flange also would act as dielectric union.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

justme said:


> yea but with the flanges you could easily prefab everything and pull it up to you with a chain fall. Its the pipe fitter in me that likes the flanges.


Pipe fitter. That explains it!! Lol.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Just put a bucket underneath it and wait a year or so for it to rust itself shut.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Dressers are good for many applications, but are unrestrained and pretty wide.

With a tee involved and unknowns about the other two runs I'd be very nervous trying dressers without restraining them, and from the look of that it looks difficult to fit dressers and restraints.

I'd go with roustabouts. I've had very good luck with them in the past.

They are restrained and extremely narrow compared to dressers.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

johnlewismcleod said:


> Dressers are good for many applications, but are unrestrained and pretty wide.
> 
> With a tee involved and unknowns about the other two runs I'd be very nervous trying dressers without restraining them, and from the look of that it looks difficult to fit dressers and restraints.
> 
> ...


You would wrap and oil field worker /rough neck around the pipe ???? Lol. Can u post a pic of the part. Cuz that term has a different meaning to me


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> You would wrap and oil field worker /rough neck around the pipe ???? Lol. Can u post a pic of the part. Cuz that term has a different meaning to me


They are grooveless victaulics:

http://www.victaulic.com/en/products-services/products/style-99-plain-end-roust-a-bout-coupling/


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Thanks. I like those. Never seen one looks easy like Vic.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Thanks. I like those. Never seen one looks easy like Vic.


Very easy and very compact...and you can work wet like with dressers.

Welded repair with flanges would be best solution, like justme said, but that would take too much time and involve fire permits, dry conditions, and access to all sides of each pipe.


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## Piper34 (Oct 10, 2011)

I like the hymax looks like great product . I'd try 6x4 comp x flanged pre bolt flange pre install progress cxm adap 2-4" valves and go .evey job like this I ever did started with a great plan and ended up completely different .let em know 3hr is only possible if everything goes perfect .must have back up plan back feed some where else,water truck? But if qualified don't be to intimidated everybody else is facing same circumstances. Once started we've never not finished maybe not as planned but functional and off to next nightmare best of luck and after pictures please


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't remember reading this thread... Hmm.

Ya'll know which method I would advocate for, but I understand downtime vs. space limitations

Repair has probably already been made, but in case not I'm going with the roustabout. Easy, quick, cheap.

I love deadlines... And the whooshing noise they make as they fly past! :laughing:


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## ironandfire (Oct 9, 2008)

So what happened ? Any pics ?


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

Put my bid in last week.

Run a new 6" main to an accessible area.
Hot tap some bypasses for water while work is being done.
Cut and cap existing.
Abandon current main.
Run new take offs from new main to existing runs.

They didn't like the plan and wanted to stick to the two or three hour shut down max.

I let them know it wasn't in my skill set to make that happen and would have to do it as described.

They are getting two more quotes. I've missed a few jobs there due to price but, it is what it is.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

MarkToo said:


> Put my bid in last week.
> 
> Run a new 6" main to an accessible area.
> Hot tap some bypasses for water while work is being done.
> ...


Better to have bid and lost than to have not bid at all.

Sounds like you had a good plan.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> Better to have bid and lost than to have not bid at all.
> 
> Sounds like you had a good plan.


Not only a good plan but the right plan ...

Redo the entire main before the rest falls apart


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## AndersenPlumbing (Jan 23, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> Does propress make 6" fittings for galvanized


 
I was thinking the same thing.


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## AndersenPlumbing (Jan 23, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> Not only a good plan but the right plan ...
> 
> Redo the entire main before the rest falls apart


 
Better to have it down for 5-6 hours than for 3 hours 4 different times over the next few years.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

MarkToo said:


> Put my bid in last week.
> 
> Run a new 6" main to an accessible area.
> Hot tap some bypasses for water while work is being done.
> ...



I have seen alot of great Ideas reading this thread, but I still think the 3 hr shutdown would be a tough one. I am known for being a little gung ho but that one would've stopped me in my tracks when they said 3 hrs! I think you made the right call!


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