# Rinnai ?



## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Does anyone know a link to where good rinnai information is. RSP got invited to bid on changing out a 100gl boiler at a local resturant here in tally, and i wann pitch two rinnai s in series, but this is something that RSP have never done. I know that there is one controller for both rinnai s. 
So lets here it, I know its coming!!:yes:


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Get you local Rinnai rep involved, it's part of their job, I have done a few restaraunts with multiple tankless units, using Takagi instead of Rinnai, and always had the rep help spec the units and the controls, it makes a big difference if a warranty issue comes up after the installation is done.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Yea, that was my plan, just wanted some homework to be prepared for it. Found the suppliers card in my rinnai folder. Ill be calling him tomorrow. Im sure he will love to come to this reasturant. I would say which national chain it is, but will wait till i have a signed contract. The scenery is going to be awesome!


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## A Good Plumber (Jun 18, 2008)

I agree with Killer. I did a job to replace a 80 gallon water heater at a Fire Station. I contacted the tech dept at Rinnai and they designed the system.
As Killer said, your responsibility for future problems with the operation will be reduced If the design is from Rinnai.

They are happy to help.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

I also agree with Killer. Complex systems need a lot of attention to detail to ensure proper performance and longevity. Get the manuals and start reading pal. I have been involved on a bunch of complex jobs and there is a bit of experience that WILL prove to be helpful to be accurate and making the bid competitive. Restaurants can be really hard on systems....recirc is running 24/7 - hi flow rates need to be had....proper temps to the dishwashers. I recommend isolating the DW on it's own tankless system(s) for a few reasons, but mainly I don't like the idea of over heating to temper back down for the lavs - kitchen sinks - ...etc...Tempering valves can fail and it is really inefficient on the units and at those higher temps there is a lot more wear and tear at the higher temps....read the performance / energy consumption up at 170 degrees...makes no sense, but designers who don't completely understand still design it like a tanked system. Expect the warranty to be a lot shorter on these commercial units, sell them a service contract on the system too. As you know no hot water = customers eat for free and need to leave. I consulted on a job where the restaurant went 5 days without hot water and they got fined 10 grand from the health dept. Service contract.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I hoot ya. You need to go get all the gpm and temp of the dishwasher's potable water. Its all about demand. Also the units cannot run continuosly for over an hour or they will shut down and flash the service code. If your not mounting them outside or on an outside wall....better figure in all that expensive stainless pipe. They run about 180,000 btu's of gas when at full bore so the gas line will probably need to be upgraded and possibly the gas meter itself so consult the gas company too.. The manuals all list the techincal data based on PROPANE FUEL for its GPM delivery. We always use natural gas here,so we hafta account for that difference in performance. Usually they use a small heater for the bathrooms around here and no tempering valve. The dishwashers around here are usually chemical based and require 160 degree water.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Also the units cannot run continuosly for over an hour or they will shut down and flash the service code.quote]
> 
> 
> Ummm, pssst here's a secret.....if you install them the way the manufacturer wants it, they run just fine. Only when you install them poorly will they error out like that.
> ...


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Tankless said:


> TheMaster said:
> 
> 
> > Also the units cannot run continuosly for over an hour or they will shut down and flash the service code.quote]
> ...


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

I am not going to get into a pissing match with you. Based on what you stated I know real world experience is limited....after you have done over 300 of these things come talk to me. And yes the tee needs to be installed, part # DTV4, retails for around 30 bucks, available at any supply house that's worth their weight.

Ya know what, just for Shyits and giggles, can you tell me the error code a unit will flash if it is undersized please?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Tankless said:


> I am not going to get into a pissing match with you. Based on what you stated I know real world experience is limited....after you have done over 300 of these things come talk to me. And yes the tee needs to be installed, part # DTV4, retails for around 30 bucks, available at any supply house that's worth their weight.
> 
> Ya know what, just for Shyits and giggles, can you tell me the error code a unit will flash if it is undersized please?


There is not error code for an undersized tankless only a code if it runs too long and I have better things to do than memorize codes i can google from my blackberry:whistling2:...I do not need to recite error codes.Tell Noritz it needs the condensate tee.....The video said it does.....tech support said if its 6' or under on the vertical in a warm climate its not needed. Like I said they cant make their mind up. Those pocket protector clowns at Noritz tech support made idiots of themselves and the rep. and they couldn't supply the product so they decided it wasn't needed. Typical RUSH TO MARKET PRODUCT.:laughing::yes: Like I said i called them out on the video because the rep was talkin smack and the tech support guys agreed the DVD was wrong! Some nerd telling you about the vent system....watch the video dont take my word for it. Those jerks didn't make the vertical condensate tee yet...only the horizontal one and they said it was not needed. Then they came out with the vertical tee. Buncha jerks! And if anybody from Noritz would like to talk about it......please feel free to speak up.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

> Also the units cannot run continuosly for over an hour or they will shut down and flash the service code.


 

Dude, you're not even close to knowledgable. Take a back seat, the grown ups are talking. I have no interest in educating you or telling you the actual facts. I love the subpar plumbers out there that need tech support and a DVD in order to install a tankless heater. :no:

Hear's a little piece of advice, talk less listen more.

A properly installed Noritz heater will operate for a period of 24 consecutive hours. After that, they will simply stop firing. They will then close the bypas valve for unrestricted flow of cold water. This product change came about early 2008 in the second revision of the 7 series units. There will be no error code displayed.

If you were actually qualified to install these things, you would still not know that. However if you were qualified to install these things, you would have a little tech's book that would have very clearly addressed all that we spoke of. You would also have all the error codes and how to do basic troublshooting. You would have also had a sheet on drip tees. They have been available for 4 years but more available as of 3 years ago. AND they are not the only one who makes them...verticle and horizantal. Like I said after your 300th, come talk to me. Good day...Master:laughing: 

In the words of Andrew Dice Clay: "If you don't know the right answer, don't say anything at all".


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

:blink:Noritz's video showed the heater installed and you would use and 18" piece off the heater and then a 90.....the condensate tee in the horizontal and then another 90 to turn up and penetrate the roof. I was replaceng a low boy electric in an attic with the tankless. I didn't have enough room to make the offset and the warranty stated that it must be installed and so did the video. I told the homeowner the heater cannot be installed and maintain the warranty. He got pissed and called the rep that help sell him the product and the rep went to the house. We all called Noritz and talked to tech support and they said "If the vent is shorter than 6' vertical in a warm climate then it doesn't need the condensate tee" About two months go by and the same situation comes up again........i call the rep and he says that a new tee is available but its not in the cateloge yet......guess what......it was the vertical condensate tee. All of this happened about 3 years ago. call Noritz and ask them if they brought both of the condensate tees to market at the same time. THE CORRECT ANSWER IS NO THEY DID NOT" But knowing Noritz goodlluck getting an answer.....OR THE SAME ANSWER TWICE!!!!!:blink:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Bottom line is they F'd up and the rep and Noritz would have said anyhting to this homeowner to get him to keep the heater. With Noritz if you dont wipe its ass after you install it....they will not warranty it......and i'm damn sure not going to warranty there product for them. Books are useless when they re-write the damn rules every few months. .........HERE ARE YOUR OWN WORDS "This product change came about early 2008 in the second revision of the 7 series units." THAT SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING MICROSOFT WOULD SAY AT A FREAKIN PRESS CONFERENCE..... EVER SINCE THE DAMN THINGS HAVE BEEN MADE ALL I HEAR IS TANKLESS THIS AND HOW GREAT TANKLESS HEATERS ARE.......IF THEY ARE SO GREAT THEN WHY ALL THE CONSTANT CHANGE??? THEY RUSH THE PRODUCT TO MARKET AND CANNOT KEEP UP WITH THEIR OWN REVISIONS. OH and grown ups dont say "DUDE" ok. So if your "A grown up" talk like one. You come off as a guy driving a honda civic with 20" rims holding his damn pants up. You need to stick with electrical because you haven't been around plumbing long enough to no jack **** about what works and for how long. profile said it all "master tankless installer" WTF is that??? 300 installs makes you master and a "all knower" about everything Noritz has made? bullshit and everybody knows it. 99% of those dumbass's at noritz do not even know everything they have printed or what tech support has said. call Noritz an ask if they when they made the vertical and the horizontal condensate tee's......it will be different dates!


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Go to Noritz's website and download the installation manual and refer to page 12 about the vent pipe. It only shows the horizontal condensate tee......where would you use your vertical condensate tee???? Noritz shows you cant go vertical over 36" before you must go horizontal with the HORIZONTAL condensate tee. So where would you use the vertical??? I atleast tell you why the vent manual doesn't show it since we are having class.....BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T EVEN MAKE A VERTICAL CONDENSATE TEE WHEN THE MANUAL WAS WRITTEN!!!!! Your not so smart guy...at all................OH by the way...Now noritz is offering MONTHLY update classes to keep you up to date!!! FFFFFFFF that......you dont make enough money in the crap!!!!! Its not worth my time!!!!! I'll make 100 an hour without them and not take a f'in class every month so i can keep up with a product they are designing as they go!!!!


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Your a strange dude and you have some serious issues. If you do need to crazy, which it sounds like you do, just take yourself and leave the rest of the world alone. I don't understand your bitterness and hatred, but I want nothing to do with you. Hopefully you can get some help and choose to pick your battles a little more wisely. later


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Bitterness and hatred come from sitting on the phone with Noritz trying to fumble through their own paperwork for a B.S, answer. Kinda like yours. I challenge anyone to call Noriitz and ask my questions above and see what kind of answers you get......3 calls will get you 3 different answers.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

That's fine. But that was 3 years ago. Don't you have better things to worry about?


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Not to interrupt you guys, but to get back to the OP, our local rinnai rep is no more. Had to call a company called Sunbelt, in GA, they gave me a number to a lady, then the lady gave me the number back to Sunbelt. Aint life freakin hilarious.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Not to interrupt you guys, but to get back to the OP, our local rinnai rep is no more. Had to call a company called Sunbelt, in GA, they gave me a number to a lady, then the lady gave me the number back to Sunbelt. Aint life freakin hilarious.


 I see your on your way to bitterness and hatred. I wasn't kidding I have received terrible tech service and rep service.......All they need over at is a freakin tent and they would have a full blown circus over there. All those companies are the same.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

yes i do Tankless, lets be friends and cut this crap out.:thumbup:


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Not to interrupt you guys, but to get back to the OP, our local rinnai rep is no more. Had to call a company called Sunbelt, in GA, they gave me a number to a lady, then the lady gave me the number back to Sunbelt. Aint life freakin hilarious.


I would switch to a different manufacturer then, like Noritz or Takagi, I would not be comfortable specing something that is not represented locally.


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## Down N Dirty (Mar 12, 2009)

I guess we must be lucky or something. We have been able to correspond amicably with our Rinnai reps and our Navian reps with no problems. We have done numerous inline, separate and circulated systems with 1, 2 and 3 unit systems. Albeit it does become frustrating when you can't get the answers you need from other reps.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

RockStar go with Noritz, they are by far the best of all the manufactures.

Master have a look at this from the Noritz website. http://www.noritz.com/professionals/products/venting/condensation_drains/ Just because an installation manual does not have pictures showing a vertical condensate tee, does not mean they do not make one. The installation manual would be a huge ass book if they showed you every way of installing the units and the venting, its more of a basic guide of how to install the unit. Did you take any of the Noritz training classes?


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

NOpe, Rinnai is the big dog around here. Plus, the rest of these necks' out here wouldn't know where to begin to get those for me.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> RockStar go with Noritz, they are by far the best of all the manufactures.
> 
> Master have a look at this from the Noritz website. http://www.noritz.com/professionals/products/venting/condensation_drains/ Just because an installation manual does not have pictures showing a vertical condensate tee, does not mean they do not make one. The installation manual would be a huge ass book if they showed you every way of installing the units and the venting, its more of a basic guide of how to install the unit. Did you take any of the Noritz training classes?


 All that shows is the two different condensate tees. When i installed the unit i've been refering to...only the horizontal condensate was made...jacked around for two weeks between the rep and the factory. the rep sold the noritz heater to the homeowner at a supply house demonstration. Vent kit and everything to install it. Then they con me into installing it. The rep hands me the install dvd(3 years ago) and I watch and note that the video says you cannot vent straight vertical and you must go horizontal to put the condensate tee in. The rep did not send a condensate tee out or charge the guy for one. That caused a problem beetween them. The big talking rep sold the thing COMPLETE and did an onsite survey....made the material list including the vent and gave the guy a total price. I just furnished copper fittings,pipe,etc. This was an attic install and no room to go horizontal. The rep called the factory and they said "In a warm climate and if the vent is under 6' long then no condensate tee was needed" Thats what Noritz said. Well by now the homeowner is asking questions and getting involved. Not mad at me at all. He's no dumbass and he sees noritz's inconsistent answers. He called and got 3 different answers. Noritz's manula still says to this day that they cannot be vented straight out the roof.......then whats the vertical condensate tee for??? It clearly states it must have horizontal piping before going vertical with the horizontal condensate tee installed. So I wasted 4 hrs making phone calls and comparing notes that didn't match.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> All that shows is the two different condensate tees. When i installed the unit i've been refering to...only the horizontal condensate was made...jacked around for two weeks between the rep and the factory. the rep sold the noritz heater to the homeowner at a supply house demonstration. Vent kit and everything to install it. Then they con me into installing it. The rep hands me the install dvd(3 years ago) and I watch and note that the video says you cannot vent straight vertical and you must go horizontal to put the condensate tee in. The rep did not send a condensate tee out or charge the guy for one. That caused a problem beetween them. The big talking rep sold the thing COMPLETE and did an onsite survey....made the material list including the vent and gave the guy a total price. I just furnished copper fittings,pipe,etc. This was an attic install and no room to go horizontal. The rep called the factory and they said "In a warm climate and if the vent is under 6' long then no condensate tee was needed" Thats what Noritz said. Well by now the homeowner is asking questions and getting involved. Not mad at me at all. He's no dumbass and he sees noritz's inconsistent answers. He called and got 3 different answers. Noritz's manula still says to this day that they cannot be vented straight out the roof.......then whats the vertical condensate tee for??? It clearly states it must have horizontal piping before going vertical with the horizontal condensate tee installed. So I wasted 4 hrs making phone calls and comparing notes that didn't match.


 
I see. Yea three years ago, all the manufactures and the reps had their heads up their arse. I refused to install them till they got their act straight. I still feel Tankless units are just a fad. Only places that truly will save some $$$ with them is hotels, restaurants, and industrial plants. Almost all brands still do not want you to vent straight through the roof is to ensure you are not supporting the weight of the vent piping on the unit and to make removal of the vent easer in case there is a need to service the unit.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> I see. Yea three years ago, all the manufactures and the reps had their heads up their arse. I refused to install them till they got their act straight. I still feel Tankless units are just a fad. Only places that truly will save some $$$ with them is hotels, restaurants, and industrial plants. Almost all brands still do not want you to vent straight through the roof is to ensure you are not supporting the weight of the vent piping on the unit and to make removal of the vent easer in case there is a need to service the unit.


 I was told its to protect from corrosive condensation dripping back down on the heater was the reason and thats why you need the horizontal drip tee and the horizontal section. The pipe can be supported.......so I dont think thats the reason. I think they printed the instructons before they made the vertical condensate tee. I know they didn't make it when i was dealing with them,or if they did nobody at Noritz cared or knew about it. If anybody knows why they make the vertical tee i would like to know and then compare that info to their instructions that come with the heater. I think I will call them .....just to see what kind of answer I get. i will report later!


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I was told its to protect from corrosive condensation dripping back down on the heater was the reason and thats why you need the horizontal drip tee and the horizontal section. The pipe can be supported.......so I dont think thats the reason. I think they printed the instructons before they made the vertical condensate tee. I know they didn't make it when i was dealing with them,or if they did nobody at Noritz cared or knew about it. If anybody knows why they make the vertical tee i would like to know and then compare that info to their instructions that come with the heater. I think I will call them .....just to see what kind of answer I get. i will report later!


Ok just got off the phone with "Lance at Noritz" he says the vertical condensate tee was developed about 1.5 years ago. he said the reson for the horizontal section is incase somthing fell down the vent it would not clogg the heat exchanger and start a fire!!!! I asked "So you would rather cause the fire in the vent" Silence and then he said "We would would rather no debris get into the heater" ohhhhhh ok I get it now!!!!!! Its a liability issue!!!!!! So according to them its nothing to do with the weight or support of the vent pipe and the horizontal section of vent is strictly to catch "debris" if you use the vertical condensation tee. What a freakin JOKE!!!!!!! basically they are using (2) 90's and a horizontal section in the venting to keep the Noritz from catching fire from debris falling down the vent. WHATA CROCKA CRAP!!!!!! Call them and see what kind of answer you guys get!!!!!!!!!! We install vent caps hereWTF is this guy talkin about somthing falling down the vent?:whistling2::laughing:


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Ok just got off the phone with "Lance at Noritz" he says the vertical condensate tee was developed about 1.5 years ago. he said the reson for the horizontal section is incase somthing fell down the vent it would not clogg the heat exchanger and start a fire!!!! I asked "So you would rather cause the fire in the vent" Silence and then he said "We would would rather no debris get into the heater" ohhhhhh ok I get it now!!!!!! Its a liability issue!!!!!! So according to them its nothing to do with the weight or support of the vent pipe and the horizontal section of vent is strictly to catch "debris" if you use the vertical condensation tee. What a freakin JOKE!!!!!!! basically they are using (2) 90's and a horizontal section in the venting to keep the Noritz from catching fire from debris falling down the vent. WHATA CROCKA CRAP!!!!!! Call them and see what kind of answer you guys get!!!!!!!!!! We install vent caps hereWTF is this guy talkin about somthing falling down the vent?:whistling2::laughing:


Just let it go man, what's a guy named Lance gonna know anyway? 

*hopes noone on the forum is named Lance*


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

airgap said:


> Just let it go man, what's a guy named Lance gonna know anyway?
> 
> *hopes noone on the forum is named Lance*


 Lance could read really well :laughing:. I did it to just prove a point. I'll drop it now. I have my answer and my opinion is the same now that it was 3 years ago.:blink:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Late again. I went to the Noritz class and got a card and dont remember a thing. I havent gone to a Rinnai class yet. I am impressed with how many of these things you guys in California are installing. In my little ******* Camelot the price is high even tho Paul Harvey endorsed them. The kid is putting another Rinnai in at a Little Ceazars. I hope he knows what hes doing. I like the "old" tank heater. Costs about $1.25 a day to operate a 40 gal elec and less for natural gas. I have a time justifying the need for tankless based on savings but cant argue with the number of installs out there. How did it all happen? Marketing? Or is there a perceived need to have endless hot water. I heard some west coast prices with a gas line at $5k. Im gonna send the kids to class--I dont like fancy computer boards on my water heaters. This post is not guaranteed to have a point or make sense.


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## Down N Dirty (Mar 12, 2009)

On a lot of the higher end houses (new construction) they are liked because you can mount one right next to their massivly plumbed whirlpools and the new shower systems with all the sprayers in a small enclosure without building a large closet for a 75 to 100 gallon hot water tank. However on remodels and service I can't answer that one.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

stillaround said:


> Late again. I went to the Noritz class and got a card and dont remember a thing. I havent gone to a Rinnai class yet. I am impressed with how many of these things you guys in California are installing. In my little ******* Camelot the price is high even tho Paul Harvey endorsed them. The kid is putting another Rinnai in at a Little Ceazars. I hope he knows what hes doing. I like the "old" tank heater. Costs about $1.25 a day to operate a 40 gal elec and less for natural gas. I have a time justifying the need for tankless based on savings but cant argue with the number of installs out there. How did it all happen? Marketing? Or is there a perceived need to have endless hot water. I heard some west coast prices with a gas line at $5k. Im gonna send the kids to class--I dont like fancy computer boards on my water heaters. This post is not guaranteed to have a point or make sense.


 I totally agree but the dumb thing is California doesn't have enough water to heat!!!!Alot of people save money with a tank type because the teenager will get out of the shower when it runs cold.......Now with the tankless it will never go cold so your teenagers will stay in the shower forever. Theres goes the gas and the water bill through the roof. The idea behind them was to save energy and avoid standby loss. How does feeding 100 ga. bathtubs ....running a car wash for a shower with 8 jets in it conserving anything???? Toilets can only flush 1.6 but yes sir you can put a 20 showerheads in your shower That meets the code. Whada joke! I've had several customers that claim their gas and water bills increased after the tankless was installed.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Preach it brother! This house is clear!!:rockon:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Down N Dirty said:


> On a lot of the higher end houses (new construction) they are liked because you can mount one right next to their massivly plumbed whirlpools and the new shower systems with all the sprayers in a small enclosure without building a large closet for a 75 to 100 gallon hot water tank. However on remodels and service I can't answer that one.


 I totally agree,they do have a place but for a remodel or a change out situation somtimes its just not practical to install the tankless. $800 for tank type 50 gal. or up to 3500 and up for a tankless unit installed. For new home construction its silly not to go tankless if your using gas. My problem mainly is all the special requirments that must be met and in a remodel or water heater replacement its a nightmare. You end up giving 10 estimates and not getting one job because of the high ass price. i started just quoting on the phone and weeding the people out who had know idea what it can cost......I get alot of WOW WOW THAT MUCH???? kills that right there and saves me a trip. People hear they cost 1,000.00 and dont understand about the vent,electricain,gas line,etc etc. its a big mess and even at that 3500.00 price its just not worth it to me. I can do a few service calls and make the same money with alot less hassel. I just cant wait for all the service calls on jacked up installs I'll be getting. I saw some pics of one installed 10' up the side of a freakin building and you need a ladder to work on it.....that would not meet code here but that makes no difference...codes are only good if they take a permit out....most people that do crappy work do not take permits out and have inspections.


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