# Under water water heater



## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Got a interesting call this morning a basement has flooded. After getting the water out they dried everything out the water heater worked but got very warm then quit. I will be out to check what is the problem tomorrow. Any guesses on what I will find?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Gas or electric?

FVIR, power vent, or old school valve?


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## smudge (Jan 19, 2010)

New heater. D0 not attempt repair.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

smudge said:


> New heater. D0 not attempt repair.


Why?


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Electric


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

smudge said:


> New heater. D0 not attempt repair.


Why would you not repair it?


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

All the manufacturers have bulletins out stating if a water heater was in a flood it must be replaced. Even if it's only a day old, you replace it.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

SewerRatz said:


> All the manufacturers have bulletins out stating if a water heater was in a flood it must be replaced. Even if it's only a day old, you replace it.


The water only got up ten inches does it state compleat or partial submerged?


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

wyrickmech said:


> The water only got up ten inches does it state compleat or partial submerged?


Partail submerged. Any kind of flooding were the insulation, controls and wiring gets submerged must be replaced. 

Due to these manufacturers service bulletins are out there, if you repair a water heater that was in a flood, you are liable for all damages, injuries, and deaths caused by the water heater.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

SewerRatz said:


> Partail submerged. Any kind of flooding were the insulation, controls and wiring gets submerged must be replaced.
> 
> Due to these manufacturers service bulletins are out there, if you repair a water heater that was in a flood, you are liable for all damages, injuries, and deaths caused by the water heater.


Good to know is there a hotline on service bulletins or a link?


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> Partail submerged. Any kind of flooding were the insulation, controls and wiring gets submerged must be replaced.
> 
> Due to these manufacturers service bulletins are out there, if you repair a water heater that was in a flood, you are liable for all damages, injuries, and deaths caused by the water heater.


Knew I should have been reading those things...


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

The controls will corrode possibly,this can cause the controls to "stick" in the on position. This would over heat the water or worse!


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

What's the difference in a lower element spraying all inside the outer jacket and all a service tech does is change out the element and lower t stat?


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

Plumberman said:


> What's the difference in a lower element spraying all inside the outer jacket and all a service tech does is change out the element and lower t stat?


There's really no difference. I had one replaced under warranty for that very reason. The idea is that once the inside of the heater becomes saturated it will corrode new parts.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Ok but we're do I get the service updates?


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

wyrickmech said:


> Ok but we're do I get the service updates?


That is a trade secret.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

wyrickmech said:


> Ok but we're do I get the service updates?





SewerRatz said:


> That is a trade secret.


In all reality, contact your supply house they should get you in contact with the distributer of the heaters, which will gladly put your email on a list to get service updates and bulletins. Also they can get you all current and past bulletins.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> Ok but we're do I get the service updates?


Go to the manufacturers website .


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> Ok but we're do I get the service updates?


Rheem technical bulletins. Google that.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

So, if the heater is out of warranty and the element goes to spraying.. Soaking the inside of the tank. By the specs it has to be replaced.

But... The homeowner doesn't want a new heater, cause it was just the element and money is tight. Tell them it's a new heater or call someone else? 

Me thinks most would replace the element and walk away with a billable sell. 

I've been in the exact situation and was told to change out the element and get COD payment... One of many cons working for someone else.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

Plumberman said:


> So, if the heater is out of warranty and the element goes to spraying.. Soaking the inside of the tank. By the specs it has to be replaced.
> 
> But... The homeowner doesn't want a new heater, cause it was just the element and money is tight. Tell them it's a new heater or call someone else?
> 
> ...


I don't have a problem walking away from a customer that has no money or refuses to spend it. Business is business.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Ok I am going to look at it and see if the lady was right about the water level. Something tells me it might be a little stretched. I do know they had water in the basement but if it got up on the heater I don't know. For it to short out the stat it would have to be a lot deeper than they said. The only thing that would cause a electric heater to over heat is a fused or bypassed controller. That means the water had to be two to three feet deep depending on the model. If it is anything close to that I will give her a price to fix the heater, which will include a new shutoff two new dielectric unions and a new 40gal electric heater.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> Ok I am going to look at it and see if the lady was right about the water level. Something tells me it might be a little stretched. I do know they had water in the basement but if it got up on the heater I don't know. For it to short out the stat it would have to be a lot deeper than they said. The only thing that would cause a electric heater to over heat is a fused or bypassed controller. That means the water had to be two to three feet deep depending on the model. If it is anything close to that I will give her a price to fix the heater, which will include a new shutoff two new dielectric unions and a new 40gal electric heater.


A grounded element can cause an electric water heater to over heat. Loose wires,sticking closed thermo's,loose wiring,thermo's not tight to the tank,mis-wired wiring.

A grounded element is not controlled by the thermostat,it's grounded to the tank and it has 120v applied to one terminal of the element. That's a completed circuit and it can over heat the tank.

The moisture within a flooded heater will evaporate and infiltrate the thermos and cause issues at a later date. All may be fine for a while.


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## vinpadalino (Aug 27, 2010)

I think it has to do with the insulation getting wet. They say it doesn't dry and can't keep the water hot due to wet insulation. 

Either way its very stupid. You should be able to replace all electric controls and it'll work fine.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

I've seen the FVIR water heaters develope a leak somewhere and leak into the pan and cause them not to run. The water sticks in the inlet screen and cuts off the air.

If the water got above the controls it should be replaced, too much liabilty not too.


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## plumberpro (Jan 1, 2013)

I would not take any chances with a flooded wh gas or elec it must be replaced wires insulation gets wet gas burner ect if ho says no call someone else you don't want the liability . I've seen this happen on a gas wh it malfunctioned and never stopped heating! After that we replaced wh


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Is anybody old enough to remember when we could retrofit a natural gas heater with a LP gas burner. Three or four explosions took care of that.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> Is anybody old enough to remember when we could retrofit a natural gas heater with a LP gas burner. Three or four explosions took care of that.


I converted a couple gas ranges a few weeks ago and convert gas grills also. Just change the orfice. I've converted a few water heaters with controls and burners.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Olemissplumber said:


> I converted a couple gas ranges a few weeks ago and convert gas grills also. Just change the orfice. I've converted a few water heaters with controls and burners.


Good thing they outlawed it I know one man that lived but is badly burnt


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> Good thing they outlawed it I know one man that lived but is badly burnt


You know that's why water heaters come with relief valves installed a joker bought one from the box store and didn't install it. BOOM!

Then the manufactures started installing them.

They use to just come in the box with the heater or along long time ago you bought it yourself.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Olemissplumber said:


> You know that's why water heaters come with relief valves installed a joker bought one from the box store and didn't install it. BOOM!
> 
> Then the manufactures started installing them.
> 
> They use to just come in the box with the heater or along long time ago you bought it yourself.


Hey that wasn't that long ago.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Rheem http://www.rheem.com/docs/FetchDocument.aspx?ID=35036df8-f32e-45cd-84ad-5019fa912bbf

State / A.O. Smith http://www.statewaterheaters.com/bulletin/bulletin0823.pdf

Bradford White http://www.bradfordwhite.com/water-heaters-damaged-flooding-124a-0905


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

wyrickmech said:


> Good to know is there a hotline on service bulletins or a link?


You would have to check each manufacturers website...

Here is Bradford White's Service Bulletin page...

Interestingly enough Bradford White does not automatically say to replace the water heater... Here is a link...


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## phishfood (Nov 18, 2012)

Olemissplumber said:


> You know that's why water heaters come with relief valves installed a joker bought one from the box store and didn't install it. BOOM!
> 
> Then the manufactures started installing them.
> 
> They use to just come in the box with the heater or along long time ago you bought it yourself.


I have installed several metric pant loads of AO Smith's, as lately as last Saturday, and I can't remember the T&P ever being installed when I unboxed the unit.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

phishfood said:


> I have installed several metric pant loads of AO Smith's, as lately as last Saturday, and I can't remember the T&P ever being installed when I unboxed the unit.


So doesn't come with the relief valve installed for residential heaters? 

Do they include the relief valve with their residential heaters?

To tell the truth I will not use an ao smith heater after I rolled into a supply house once that dealt in AO's and the yard was packed with leakers.

I guess they have their following but I've never been impressed by AO products. Haven't they been bought and sold a few times?


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> Good thing they outlawed it I know one man that lived but is badly burnt


Actually A.O Smith will allow the conversion from LP (propane) to natural gas under certain circumstances and recognize the conversion as factory compliant.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Olemissplumber said:


> Actually A.O Smith will allow the conversion from LP (propane) to natural gas under certain circumstances and recognize the conversion as factory compliant.


Actually the conversion I was talking about is illegal now. It involved changing the control valve. The burner was not made to burn both types of gas. The conversion you are referring to involves springs and orfice kits.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Dont need a service bulletin to know you should never ever put a flooded water heater back in service. Read the big stickers on the front of any heater that no one ever reads. It says it right on there in black and white. "Do not attempt to re light or restore power a flooded unit. Unit MUST be replaced".


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Maybe some of the confusion comes from the manufacturers themselves? This warning is posted in a rheem ng spider fire manual. Personally, I would always replace.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

It depends on why and how the water heater was flooded and it also depends on if the heater is gas or electric and if its FVIR or not.

If the unit was submerged due to rain water or water that flooded a room and left the heater under water I replace the water heater.

If a gas water heater had a leak on the piping and wet the burn chamber I will inspect and put the unit back in service. Same for rain water that leaked through the vent during a violent wind blowing thunderstorm. Inspect for debris and or corrosion and if nothing unusual is found I fire the heater and observe its function.

An electric heater is where the line gets blurred and problems can arise. If an electric heater gets a lot of water between the outer jacket and the tank the controls can and will corrode as the heater tries to dry out. The newer foam insulation is not as bad as the older fiberglass of earlier electrics. It doesn't seem to hold as much water for as long as the fiberglass.

So if the electric water heater can be taken out of service long enough for it to completely dry then there is no issue if you replace all the controls and put the unit back on service.

IMO it's just as cost effective to replace the heaters and on the side of safety it's just a good idea to replace the heaters.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

If the outside of the tank gets wet it has to be replaced period. The inside of the tank is glass lined to protect the welds from water. Outside of tank is bare metal, never intended to be wet ever. It will rust it will fail. Obviously the thermostats, elements, gas valve, inducing fan, or control boards cant get wet either. That goes without saying. Common sense here. A liability no one needs by putting a unit back into service. My .02


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

theplumbinator said:


> If the outside of the tank gets wet it has to be replaced period. The inside of the tank is glass lined to protect the welds from water. Outside of tank is bare metal, never intended to be wet ever. It will rust it will fail. Obviously the thermostats, elements, gas valve, inducing fan, or control boards cant get wet either. That goes without saying. Common sense here. A liability no one needs by putting a unit back into service. My .02


The bare tank can sweat so it does get wet and your right that can cause it to rust from outside in. This is one reason why a water heater should be sized properly. Also the interior tank is not totally glass lined,at the bung welds its bare steel.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Olemissplumber said:


> The bare tank can sweat so it does get wet and your right that can cause it to rust from outside in. This is one reason why a water heater should be sized properly. Also the interior tank is not totally glass lined,at the bung welds its bare steel.


That's what insulation is for, keeps the heat in and the tank from sweating. Although I cant imagine it would sweat often even without insulation. Maybe the initial fill of 55 deg water may cause it to sweat if the inside temp of the building was 20 deg or so warmer. Otherwise the water in the tank its mixing with is already warm and would prevent the tank from sweating. Bet they dont sweat at all in low humidity areas like AZ. Or inside climate controlled buildings. As for the small areas inside the tank without glass lining I'm sure that's done for a reason. If they made them too good no one would have to buy a new one, but they warranty the tank from leaking if a bung fails within a reasonable time limit. There is no warranty on anything the second the outside of the tank contacts water.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

theplumbinator said:


> That's what insulation is for, keeps the heat in and the tank from sweating. Although I cant imagine it would sweat often even without insulation. Maybe the initial fill of 55 deg water may cause it to sweat if the inside temp of the building was 20 deg or so warmer. Otherwise the water in the tank its mixing with is already warm and would prevent the tank from sweating. Bet they dont sweat at all in low humidity areas like AZ. Or inside climate controlled buildings. As for the small areas inside the tank without glass lining I'm sure that's done for a reason. If they made them too good no one would have to buy a new one, but they warranty the tank from leaking if a bung fails within a reasonable time limit. There is no warranty on anything the second the outside of the tank contacts water.


Then why are there service bulletins from every manufacturer about condensation found around water heaters?

They do not want this condensation to be confused with a leaker possibly an in warranty leaker.

It can condensate so much it puts the pilot out. The inner flue of a gas heater is not insulated.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Olemissplumber said:


> Then why are there service bulletins from every manufacturer about condensation found around water heaters?


Great question. Because out of the probably 1000 water heaters or more that ive encountered in my career I've never had any issues with condensation from any tank. only the un insulated cold supply line entering the tank, dripping on the jacket. I also worked for a company that did Rheme warranty service for 5 years never heard anything from them about problems with tanks and condensation either. Where do you work? The rain Forrest?


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Olemissplumber said:


> Then why are there service bulletins from every manufacturer about condensation found around water heaters?
> 
> They do not want this condensation to be confused with a leaker possibly an in warranty leaker.
> 
> It can condensate so much it puts the pilot out. The inner flue of a gas heater is not insulated.


That ive seen happen. Its due to an oversized flue pipe usually. But thats combustion condensation not the tank sweating.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

theplumbinator said:


> Great question. Because out of the probably 1000 water heaters or more that ive encountered in my career I've never had any issues with condensation from any tank. only the un insulated cold supply line entering the tank, dripping on the jacket. I also worked for a company that did Rheme warranty service for 5 years never heard anything from them about problems with tanks and condensation either. Where do you work? The rain Forrest?


Undersized water heaters sweat that's one reason why the manufacturers stress sizing them properly. The moisture eats from outside in on the bare steel tank.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

theplumbinator said:


> That ive seen happen. Its due to an oversized flue pipe usually. But thats combustion condensation not the tank sweating.


Water is water so just because a heater is wet doesn't mean you should automatically replace it. That's all my point was. I enjoy the discussion and no offense intended.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Olemissplumber said:


> Water is water so just because a heater is wet doesn't mean you should automatically replace it. That's all my point was. I enjoy the discussion and no offense intended.


I would say it would be more of a case of sizing the chimney properly. Or lining it. I most times encounter this issue when an 80% furnace was replaced with a 90% unit and now the only appliance in the flue is a 40,000 btu water heater. Entering an 8" chimney. Why they dont sell a direct vent water heater as well or at least line the chimney smaller, is beyond me. but ive seen it more than once. I understand your points and no offense taken.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

theplumbinator said:


> I would say it would be more of a case of sizing the chimney properly. Or lining it. I most times encounter this issue when an 80% furnace was replaced with a 90% unit and now the only appliance in the flue is a 40,000 btu water heater. Entering an 8" chimney. Why they dont sell a direct vent water heater as well or at least line the chimney smaller, is beyond me. but ive seen it more than once. I understand your points and no offense taken.


I don't vent through a chimney anymore unless its lined. Heater just doesn't draw properly. I do not do any type of hvac. I turned down a job recently because the old water heater single wall vent tied into a natural gas central furnace. I suggest my client use a hvac friend of mine. The home was being sold and hvac needed work anyway.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Olemissplumber said:


> I don't vent through a chimney anymore unless its lined. Heater just doesn't draw properly. I do not do any type of hvac. I turned down a job recently because the old water heater single wall vent tied into a natural gas central furnace. I suggest my client use a hvac friend of mine. The home was being sold and hvac needed work anyway.


I agree in a perfect world we would never see a wh tied into the same flue as a furnace. Unfortunately its a problem we've all encountered, some of us handle it correct and some dont. I'm a big "fan" of direct vent (no pun intended).


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Well I went out and looked at the water heater the water had gotten up to the heater but not on it it was sitting on a pad and was on block on top of that. But the most interesting thing was after checking the element I found it to be bad I pulled the element and grabbed a new one off of the truck it would not fit, it was to small. Now at this point I had thought a electric screw in element was all the same size thread not true. It seems that a few manufacture decided to make a 1 3/8 thread instead of the standard 1 in thread. So I will go back and change it at 4:30 on a Friday night.


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Yes Kenmore unit. Had that issue once I think it was 1 3/8" slightly larger.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

theplumbinator said:


> Yes Kenmore unit. Had that issue once I think it was 1 3/8" slightly larger.


That's the stupid whirlpool model that had the temp adjustment circuit board mounted on top of the heater. Pos


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

theplumbinator said:


> Yes Kenmore unit. Had that issue once I think it was 1 3/8" slightly larger.


This brand was reliant.the element is called a amalloy 13/8 threaded element apparently the kenmore,reliant and a handful of off brand water heaters have this element. The only drawback is finding a ace hardware or lumber yard that carries the stupid thing.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

wyrickmech said:


> This brand was reliant.the element is called a amalloy 13/8 threaded element apparently the kenmore,reliant and a handful of off brand water heaters have this element. The only drawback is finding a ace hardware or lumber yard that carries the stupid thing.


Sell them a new heater. Lol


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Plumberman said:


> Sell them a new heater. Lol


I tried to no avail ,I will sooner or later.lol


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

wyrickmech said:


> I tried to no avail ,I will sooner or later.lol


I cringe when I see someone coming out of a hardware store toting a Whirlpool or the like.. Makes me happy I don't do residential anymore!


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Plumberman said:


> I cringe when I see someone coming out of a hardware store toting a Whirlpool or the like.. Makes me happy I don't do residential anymore!


I was in heavy industrial and commercial for the better part of twenty years, I quit doing side work like houses to raise my kids by myself. I forgot how much a pain it is when you have some punk at the hardware store giving advice on how to install something they don't even know anything about. The other thing is home owners have no standards on what to use, the heater I worked on today had no dielectric union copper flares and cpvc all within a foot of the heater.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

wyrickmech said:


> I was in heavy industrial and commercial for the better part of twenty years, I quit doing side work like houses to raise my kids by myself. I forgot how much a pain it is when you have some punk at the hardware store giving advice on how to install something they don't even know anything about. The other thing is home owners have no standards on what to use, the heater I worked on today had no dielectric union copper flares and cpvc all within a foot of the heater.


Nice,

I watched a weekend warrior at a hardware store ask the floor guy what fittings he needed to hook up his pop off. The guy said white PVC...

^^^^
Sighs....(shaking my head)


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> This brand was reliant.the element is called a amalloy 13/8 threaded element apparently the kenmore,reliant and a handful of off brand water heaters have this element. The only drawback is finding a ace hardware or lumber yard that carries the stupid thing.


I remember having to drive half hour to a Sears Hardware. Only place that had one in stock that day. Bought two just incase I ever came across one again.


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## Buddy (Oct 25, 2009)

*flooded basement*

ran into same situation 1 week ago.18" in. water . 6 year old nat. gas water heater and 10 yr. old crown oil fired boiler.Code officer said no repairs allowed because even if things seem to work ok , the contacts could stick and then BIG problems. Insurace job now . Good time to do an oil to gas conversion. Good Luck. Buddy


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## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

We just had record flooding go through our fair city on June 21st, both rivers that congregate in our city were deluged by record rain in the mountains to our west. I'll be as busy as I care to be replacing water heaters and boilers in the numerous neighborhoods affected. We're a city of 1.2 million and 10% of peoples homes were affected. Houses, apartments, condos, townhomes, you name it. The Saddledome, our 19,289 seat hockey stadium had water up to the 10th row! The walk in beer cooler and all of the beer tapping equipment & distribution lines will need to be replaced, which is fairly unique as flood damage goes, They probably have in excess of 50 kegs tapped simultaneously. Thousands of water heaters, hundreds or thousand of boilers both domestic and commercial, and thousands of furnaces all need replacement.... 

Business is absolutely stupid. To save drive time I've hooked up my 16' x 7' cargo trailer and am stocking numerous conventional water heaters. Next week I'll stock some power vented units as well, I'm seeing lots of both varieties. Many homes have plugged main sewers from the muddy water settling out. My preferred wholesaler has *8 semi trailers* of water heaters on order! And there's many other wholesalers in town who've likely placed similar orders.

There's an army of thousands of volunteers gutting peoples basements, people setting up food stations to feed & water them. Its like nothing I've ever seen as far a community pulling together, and reassures my occasionally waning faith in humanity.


Note the meteorology description of the rainfall responsible for the catastrophe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Alberta_floods


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

theplumbinator said:


> I remember having to drive half hour to a Sears Hardware. Only place that had one in stock that day. Bought two just incase I ever came across one again.


It makes you so mad when the element comes out and the home owner is standing there while you put the standard element in and it does not fit. You feel about halfway stupid. Standard isn't standard anymore!


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## Plumbergeek (Aug 16, 2010)

Customer called wanting me to re-light his water heater in the basement that had flooded from all the rain we have had. I told him I couldn't re-light it and all MFG required the unit's to be replaced and that I could not accept the liability for it. He politely thanked me and said he would call someone who would light it.


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## PathMaker (May 10, 2013)

*underwater = trouble*

If a water heater is located in a place that is susceptible to flooding, and a plumber were to repair a heater that has been previously flooded (even partially) he or she puts themselves in a dangerous situation. If that repaired water heater were to get stuck in the heating position, (t-stats fail, control valve fail or malfunctions) and there is enough water blocking the bottom of the T&P, remember the area IS prone to flooding...well, I think you all get the picture. 
Best thing that we can do as pros is to recommend a higher elevation for the location or a tankless. In reality its a win-win for customer and contractor. Just my .02


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