# RP leaking



## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

I have a commercial customer with a boiler system, with a reduced pressure check valve assembly on the make-up water feed. 

I just put in a new Watts 009 and it is leaking out the vent on top of the body. 

I am able to isolate it via a valve downstream. Even with the valve closed, (so I know there is no back pressure) it is still weeping out the top. Debris on the seats? Faulty valve?

I don't have the gauges to actually do a test on the unit, and my certification is long past expired. But before I go and eat the cost of getting someone from 45 minutes away to do the test, I thought I would pull it apart and see if it was something as simple as debris on the seats. 

Input appreciated, as I am perplexed by this one.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Could be the #1 check valve is fouled with debris. Usually it's trash in the #1 check.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

You are saying the vent hole on the top cap? Not that its discharging out of the relief?

If water is coming out of the hole on the top cap, then its either a bad o ring on the relief shaft that slides into the top cap.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

The test ports are leaking?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Why you need this expenisive crap on low risk boiler feed??


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

Tommy plumber said:


> Could be the #1 check valve is fouled with debris. Usually it's trash in the #1 check.


Debris was my first thought, but I got scared off trying to get at the check valves by the cheap piece of plastic retainer. Didn't want to risk pulling that out until I was a bit more sure.


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

SewerRatz said:


> You are saying the vent hole on the top cap? Not that its discharging out of the relief?
> 
> If water is coming out of the hole on the top cap, then its either a bad o ring on the relief shaft that slides into the top cap.


Yes, the vent hole on the top. I was looking at the O ring, but had the thought that if the hole is there, there must be a reason (designed for) that it could discharge water. Am I out to lunch, cause I had the top off a few times and couldn't see a way that water should come out the vent in any scenario I could think of, but I am probably trusting the design of the thing too much.

If water is not supposed to come out of the vent, is it just for air admittance, and in what scenario?


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

The test ports are good, and as for why it's needed. Just replacing to original equipment, although the thought did cross my mind to pull it out and put in a Watts 007.

Going to check with the plumbing inspector tomorrow on that one


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

I prefer the Wilkins 975XL RPZ.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Why you need this expenisive crap on low risk boiler feed??


Code in Texas


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

I would think an RPZ is required for all commercial boilers. You have pressure on both sides.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Has alot to do with the often quoted phrase: "Protecting the health and welfare of the nation."


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> Has alot to do with the often quoted phrase: "Protecting the health and welfare of the nation."


My backflow teacher told us a story of how several kids got severely ill one died from drinking from a fountain. They found out that just the night before the boiler was serviced. They found descaler in the potable water system. The boiler had no backflow device. Turns out the plumber removed it because it was leaking


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

MTDUNN said:


> My backflow teacher told us a story of how several kids got severely ill one died from drinking from a fountain. They found out that just the night before the boiler was serviced. They found descaler in the potable water system. The boiler had no backflow device. Turns out the plumber removed it because it was leaking


Water was NOT coming from boiler with PRV on feed... no way low pressure get into higher pressure side.. this what overzealous inspectoers can't figure out or understand.


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

it will syphon when the potable main goes negative :whistling2: rpz's are required here on closed loop heating and cooling systems


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Plumbworker said:


> it will syphon when the potable main goes negative :whistling2:


Not when the supply valve to system is closed..


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

rjbphd said:


> Not when the supply valve to system is closed..


well that wasn't the way you worded it.. you said when (prv is installed)... you never mentioned a manual filled system


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Plumberman said:


> The test ports are leaking?


No, there is a relief orifice on the top plate. The only time I have ever seen them leak is like Ratz said, the o-ring is nicked.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Code in Texas


I think it's code almost everywhere. Must dump to keep boiler chems out of potable water sorce.


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Water was NOT coming from boiler with PRV on feed... no way low pressure get into higher pressure side.. this what overzealous inspectoers can't figure out or understand.


I agree...when everything is operating normally.

But to be the Devil's advocate, suppose there is a water line break upstream, a week after some dough head was working on the boiler system and didn't shut the isolation valve off when he was done. Water gets shut off, and the back pressure would contaminate the line. 

Gotta protect people from their own stupidity and others.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

JoshJ said:


> I agree...when everything is operating normally.
> 
> But to be the Devil's advocate, suppose there is a water line break upstream, a week after some dough head was working on the boiler system and didn't shut the isolation valve off when he was done. Water gets shut off, and the back pressure would contaminate the line.
> 
> Gotta protect people from their own stupidity and others.


 That's where the PRV comes in... never seen one leaks in my time.


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## plumbing ninja (Jan 15, 2012)

That's what I hate about backflows. They always leak when you install them or just finished servicing them. It's always seem to be debris fouling, air pockets, sticking shafts or O-rings that haven't seated correctly!


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

JoshJ said:


> Yes, the vent hole on the top. I was looking at the O ring, but had the thought that if the hole is there, there must be a reason (designed for) that it could discharge water. Am I out to lunch, cause I had the top off a few times and couldn't see a way that water should come out the vent in any scenario I could think of, but I am probably trusting the design of the thing too much.
> 
> If water is not supposed to come out of the vent, is it just for air admittance, and in what scenario?



Water is not supposed to come out at all. It is to allow air to move in and out at that point to prevent a vacuum on the piston shaft.

Pull the cover there should be a orange o-ring on the shaft, it might be stuck in the cover. If it is in the cover, get it out and put it on the shaft, and put a little faucet grease on it and reassemble.

When putting it back together, make sure the bottom part of the shaft is lined up with the relief hole in the body.


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## Andrew G (May 27, 2013)

Hope this picture of a demo'd .50" Watts 009 parts made it. The relief valve module, #1 & 2 checks and the retainer. Definitely need a BAT license to test and even open up the assemblies due to the serious nature of cross connections to the potable water. Whenever we install them it does save a lot of time to flush the line through the #1 test port just upstream of the #1 shut off. Removes all debris - flux, copper reamings..
The hole through the top cover is definitely to relieve the vacuum of the relief valve moving up and down. It's a good license to have in your wallet. Always seeing more and more back flows being required out there.


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## Pac Rim Plumber (Jun 23, 2010)

Am I missing something here, I believe all new install and replacement backflow preventors are required to be tested. With most jurisdictions requiring a test report to be sent to the water dept or AHD. With out a backflow test how does anyone know if the device is working properly, I have gone multiple times to test a device behind someone else and found it to be in a failed state.


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## Andrew G (May 27, 2013)

Pac Rim Plumber said:


> Am I missing something here, I believe all new install and replacement backflow preventors are required to be tested. With most jurisdictions requiring a test report to be sent to the water dept or AHD. With out a backflow test how does anyone know if the device is working properly, I have gone multiple times to test a device behind someone else and found it to be in a failed state.


That's true. Every assembly has to be tested first at it's installation and also retested anytime it's repaired, cleaned or even opened. A completed test report also has to be sent in to the municipality having jurisdiction usually within 15 days. I have a file with the required test report forms for about 30 different cities nearby. Sometime in the future maybe every municipality will decide on one universal form to use. Great idea. Everybody seems to want their own special test report form currently.


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## Andrew G (May 27, 2013)

Andrew G said:


> That's true. Every assembly has to be tested first at it's installation and also retested anytime it's repaired, cleaned or even opened. A completed test report also has to be sent in to the municipality having jurisdiction usually within 15 days. I have a file with the required test report forms for about 30 different cities nearby. Sometime in the future maybe every municipality will decide on one universal form to use. Great idea. Everybody seems to want their own special test report form currently.


*They also do have to be tested yearly..


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> I prefer the Wilkins 975XL RPZ.


I agree with Tommy. I am not a fan of Watts. I have put in several Wilkins with no issues.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

975's are very easy to pull apart and rebuild. I don't like the bird cages that hold in the Watts checks.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Water was NOT coming from boiler with PRV on feed... no way low pressure get into higher pressure side.. this what overzealous inspectoers can't figure out or understand.


There was no backflow device.

Here is a scenerio: What if there was a fire in the area fire tuck uses a hydrant on the same main line maybe 2. This can cause a negative pressure and with no backflow device, the bad water from the boiler can syphon into the potable system in the school. No?


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

rjbphd said:


> Water was NOT coming from boiler with PRV on feed... no way low pressure get into higher pressure side.. this what overzealous inspectoers can't figure out or understand.


Why?


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

The city and county of San Francisco tracks all backflows installed ...They send out a letter to each residence and commercial property stating their up for annual certification and the test report needs to be submitted to the (HD) within a certin date or they will shut off and padlock your meter...:thumbup:


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Ditto about Wilkins. Them or Conbraco are the best RPZs or any backflow device in my opinion. I used to be a BPAT and couldn't stand Watts brand. The only thing I have ever used that I like made by Watts was their TP valve. Watts would charge $325 for their 1" RPZ 6 years ago but I could get a Wilkins for $120. Wilkims were much more reliable, not to mention their rebuild kits for 1/2" to 1" were about $40. If you can find a watts rebuild kit they run about the same as a new device most of the time. Anyhow, just my 2¢. If it were me I would just replace the one you are working on with a Wilkins if possible. Cut your losses on repairs and phone calls to watts in California form tech support.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

Plumbworker said:


> The city and county of San Francisco tracks all backflows installed ...They send out a letter to each residence and commercial property stating their up for annual certification and the test report needs to be submitted to the (HD) within a certin date or they will shut off and padlock your meter...:thumbup:


What if someone installs a BFP without a permit, how would they track that?

So lets just say a homeowner installs a PVB on a lawn sprinkler system, & gets a permit. Now the guy next door installs a sprinkler system without a permit. The HO may not even realize he/she needs a permit. In fact most don't even realize what the BF device even is, let alone what it does, or what its for, or that a permit & test is required. Now the guy without the permit, never has to pay the cost of permit fees, or testing annually or anything, cuz the municipality has no record of it. How do they handle that?


Just asking, not saying your wrong about anything. Here they only have sporatic cities that enforce testing of BFP's, & most are only commercial bldgs. Most commercial bldgs are suppose to be tested every 2 yrs, & residential every 5 yrs. I only know of a hand full of cities around here that even enforces any testing of residential BFP's, after they're installed.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

MTDUNN said:


> There was no backflow device.
> 
> Here is a scenerio: What if there was a fire in the area fire tuck uses a hydrant on the same main line maybe 2. This can cause a negative pressure and with no backflow device, the bad water from the boiler can syphon into the potable system in the school. No?


 







We studied a book on cross-connection control for the backflow re-cert class. In that book are several real-life examples of hazardous situations that developed in this country due to there being no cross-connection device in place. Backflow prevention is no joke: (pic #2 goes with case #8, the last pic has no caption included)


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Some more interesting reading:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Another case involving kidney dialysis patients who got sick from a cross-contamination:


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## Andrew G (May 27, 2013)

A lot of customers think that installing and yearly testing of backflows is just a money conspiracy between plumbers and the municipality. I've used that great analogy of the fire truck drawing out thousands of gallons of water and creating a negative pressure on the system, pulling the non potable water back into the potable line. It could actually also happen if the street main were to burst creating the negative pressure too. Having a backflow license also means that you'll have to pass the state's professional growth exam every three years to keep it. That's pretty stressful as you have to test each of the four different assemblies in front of the examiner (rpba, dcva, pressure vacuum breaker and spill resistant vacuum breaker) locate the fault that he 









creates with his black box, correct it and complete the test. Not a fun exam to look forward to, but does keep you current on any changes in the test procedures. I built our own test station to practice on.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Andrew G said:


> A lot of customers think that installing and yearly testing of backflows is just a money conspiracy between plumbers and the municipality. I've used that great analogy of the fire truck drawing out thousands of gallons of water and creating a negative pressure on the system, pulling the non potable water back into the potable line. It could actually also happen if the street main were to burst creating the negative pressure too. Having a backflow license also means that you'll have to pass the state's professional growth exam every three years to keep it. That's pretty stressful as you have to test each of the four different assemblies in front of the examiner (rpba, dcva, pressure vacuum breaker and spill resistant vacuum breaker) locate the fault that he
> 
> creates with his black box, correct it and complete the test. Not a fun exam to look forward to, but does keep you current on any changes in the test procedures. I built our own test station to practice on.


Very nice looking set up, Andrew. I enjoyed being a BPAT here in Texas but guys that do nothing but test undercut our prices and made it not worth the trouble or liability. I may get into again later on. Its nice to see that some guys do take a lot of pride in the BPAT license and its purpose.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

422 plumber said:


> 975's are very easy to pull apart and rebuild. I don't like the bird cages that hold in the Watts checks.


I never tear down an 009 without the new parts sitting there.....

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Plumbing Zone


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

ILPlumber said:


> I never tear down an 009 without the new parts sitting there.....
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Plumbing Zone


I agree but I don't see what the fuss about watts is they are more accurate or sensitive so it makes them a little more cranky. The repair kits are simple ,actually the watts on there small rpb,s are quite simple. The 909 rpb and the 709 double check are my favorite in the 2 1/2-10.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> I agree but I don't see what the fuss about watts is they are more accurate or sensitive so it makes them a little more cranky. The repair kits are simple ,actually the watts on there small rpb,s are quite simple. The 909 rpb and the 709 double check are my favorite in the 2 1/2-10.


I have had OK luck with their 2" but that's the biggest I've messed with. I just thought they were a little over engineered is all. But to each his own on preference.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> I have had OK luck with their 2" but that's the biggest I've messed with. I just thought they were a little over engineered is all. But to each his own on preference.


I agree they can frustrate the best of us but they are very accurate. What brand did you prefer? We don't have much choice around here most engineers spec watts.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> I agree they can frustrate the best of us but they are very accurate. What brand did you prefer? We don't have much choice around here most engineers spec watts.


I found the same to be the case in Montana when I lived there as far as Watts being the exclusive back flow device offered at supply houses. Here in Houston I would always get Wilkins, Conbraco, or Febco. Easy to get parts and inexpensive. Wilkins was the best, imo. I thought they were the simplest to disassemble, too.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> I never tear down an 009 without the new parts sitting there.....
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Plumbing Zone


I never tear down a Watts 009 period. If it fails, I replace it with a 919 and if the space is available, and $$$ is not an issue then I put in a 909, which in my opinion is the best RPZ out there.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> We studied a book on cross-connection control for the backflow re-cert class. In that book are several real-life examples of hazardous situations that developed in this country due to there being no cross-connection device in place. Backflow prevention is no joke: (pic #2 goes with case #8, the last pic has no caption included)


Next time a customer questions the bill, show them this book


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## plumbing ninja (Jan 15, 2012)

Andrew G said:


> A lot of customers think that installing and yearly testing of backflows is just a money conspiracy between plumbers and the municipality. I've used that great analogy of the fire truck drawing out thousands of gallons of water and creating a negative pressure on the system, pulling the non potable water back into the potable line. It could actually also happen if the street main were to burst creating the negative pressure too. Having a backflow license also means that you'll have to pass the state's professional growth exam every three years to keep it. That's pretty stressful as you have to test each of the four different assemblies in front of the examiner (rpba, dcva, pressure vacuum breaker and spill resistant vacuum breaker) locate the fault that he
> 
> View attachment 27093
> 
> ...


Your analogy of the fire truck is not an urban myth it's true! We had it happen New Zealand quite a few years back. Fire dept pulled up to put out a factory fire in Avondale. The -ve pressure pulled paint from a neighbouring paint factory, they ended up fueling the fire with the contaminated mains. there was no backflow on the boundary and no air gaps or checks on the tanks from the paint factory. They were heavily fined, billed for mains contamination and rebuild of the fire truck? For some reason it was hushed up but the municipal guys and their backflow head inspector will confirm the story but not publicly


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> Water was NOT coming from boiler with PRV on feed... no way low pressure get into higher pressure side.. this what overzealous inspectoers can't figure out or understand.


They can't be over zealous if they are right. It does not matter if the fill valve is on or off by law it still needs a RPB any service to equipment that has a possibility of contaminating potable drinking water must have a RPB. The potential of a health risk is what it is trying to protect from.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I have two:
I was called to bid a job at a crop services plant. I met the state plumbing inspector there to address some necessary changes. Basically making him the bad cop not me. Anyway.... we were sitting at a card table next to the truck fill. Submerged inlet with chemicals being introduced to the tank. It was then centrifugally pumped into the sprayers. The city shut their main off to make a repair. The state inspector noticed the level in the tank dropping without the pump running. It was back siphoning out into the main. He ran over and shut the valve. There were mains replaced from this incident....

Number two:
I was called to a snap on factory with the complaint of green water from the water cooler near the compeessor room. The cooling jacket was leaking causing plant air to push ethylene glycol into tue potable line in the plant. They freaked when I told them the problem. They paid me to set quite a few backflows in the plant. They were still worried a year later. They had me come back and paid big bucks to run all new potable lines in the entire factory. The old line was protected by duplex rpz's on the feed. It became strictly non potable. 
The funny part is two years after paying me over $200, 000 to run new potable lines the plant was closed. They moved all production to their non union plant in Tennessee. The building was sold for scrap. I had thousands of feet in 4" and down copper hanging in there. I bet the scapper cleaned up jack......

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Plumbing Zone


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> I never tear down a Watts 009 period. If it fails, I replace it with a 919 and if the space is available, and $$$ is not an issue then I put in a 909, which in my opinion is the best RPZ out there.


I don't understand your logic. Parts for an 009 are dirt cheap. I would be afraid the owner would think I was screwing him over. I get an average of 5 years out of an 009 before I have to replace modules.
Fyi im a 909 guy myself. Some of my competition sets 009's to underbid me. I test alot of valves I didnt install...

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Plumbing Zone


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Water was NOT coming from boiler with PRV on feed... no way low pressure get into higher pressure side.. this what overzealous inspectoers can't figure out or understand.



Series 25AUB-Z3 Water Pressure Reducing Valves are designed to reduce
incoming water pressure to a sensible level to protect plumbing system
components and reduce water consumption. This series is suitable for water
supply pressures up to 300psi (20.7 bar) and may be adjusted from 25 – 75psi
(172 – 517 kPa). The standard setting is 50psi (345 kPa). All parts are quickly
and easily serviceable without removing the valve from the line. The standard
bypass feature permits the flow of water back through the valve into the main
when pressures, due to thermal expansion on the outlet side of the valve,
exceed the pressure in the main supply.


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