# Cracked Brass Part III



## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

For those not following this saga part one can be found here 

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f22/lead-free-brass-easy-crack-9207/

Part two has it's own thread

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f21/cracked-brass-ball-valve-part-ii-9492/

I got a call this morning that another one had split. This is the third out of 18 that I installed about 10 weeks ago. The have all split right down the side. I can't remember ever tightening a valve so tight that it cracked in my 15 years of plumbing. I am having a real hard time believing that I was so out of it that I was cranking these all down too tight one day. Pictures...




















I did have one weird thought and I'm quite possibly grasping at straws but do you think an acidic environment could cause this? All three of these cracked valves are in the caves at a local winery. Inside these caves are thousands of barrels of wine and I would guess that the atmosphere would be acidic due to the wine. I'm fully convinced that the brass alloy Red White is using on these valves is just crap. I replaced both valves (only one had split) on this station with 2 new red handled Red White valves and they are noticeably heavier than the yellow handled valves. 










If I get another call about a split valve I'm just going to bite the bullet and replace the other 16. I've already pretty much broken even on this job with the travel time back and forth 3 times. I have to keep this customer happy and I'll more than cover this loss with future work so I'm not crushed. It just sucks and I needed to vent.






Paul


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

That sucks because I use those same valves. I use Apollo's too. Never had one crack like that and it doesn't look like you are over tightning.....Hope you raise hell with the rep. Crap brass with all this no lead BS


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Nothing more frustrating than product defects.

5 out of the last 9 Watts single handle WM valves I've installed had pin holes in the casting of the brass elbows that get soldered on. I finally gave up and now use Symmons.

Bought a box (25) of fluidmaster pro fill valves and so far 5 out of the first 14 have been defective. Leaking out of the top well after tank is full. I caught all but one which resulted in a callback. 

:furious:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

How far is the job from you? I hate defects in material. PIA and it can make ya look like a goof on top of it.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

rocksteady said:


> For those not following this saga part one
> 
> These valves that are failing.
> 
> ...


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Bill - They're not marked "made in" anywhere but they do have Italy stamped on the underside of the handle. There's nothing cast into the valve body.



TM - It's about a 1/2 hour drive from me. Each failure takes about 2 hours of my time to take care of so that's why I'm only going back one more time. If I have to go fix one more, I'm going to just replace all of them.








Paul


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

rocksteady said:


> Bill - They're not marked "made in" anywhere but they do have Italy stamped on the underside of the handle. There's nothing cast into the valve body.
> 
> Damn good article on the prostituting of USA Jobs to other countries.
> And the return to the USA is starting to come back.
> ...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I've said this before: It's stress corrosion cracking caused by poor manufacturing practices (working the brass to cold). Some brass alloys need to be worked hot or there will be stresses that will remain in the metal. These stresses cause the metal to fail catastrophically once exposed to corrosion. The salts formed during corrosion start inside the grain boundaries of the metal.

It's kinda like starting a tear in a cloth. Once you make a spot were the matrix is weak, any applied stress will cause the tear to quickly travel. That is essentially what is happening to the brass on a molecular level.

Bottom line is the manufacturer is a fault.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

A picture of the intergranular corrosion that initiates the "tearing" under stress.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Protech, does this stressing need an outside source of corrosion in order to fail? Does the fact that all 3 of the failures were inside a large wine storage cave have anything to do with this? Of the 18 valves I installed 4 were in the caves, 10 were outside and 4 were in a warehouse area. If the stress that was caused during manufacturing needs a corrosive environment could the air in the wine caves be part of the equation?





Paul


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

From what I have red about it, certain compounds cause it to happen more than others. The prerequisite for it to occur is stress points that act as a starting point for the cracks. It could be that there is something in the external environment causing it, but I would lean more toward an internal contaminant that is causing the cracks to propagate. 

The important thing to realize is that it's the combination of machined in "starting points" for the cracks and then the corrosion finishes the job. You must have both present for it to happen. Me bet is an internal contaminant is propagating cracks that were formed when the threads were tapped while the brass was not hot enough.

Metallurgy is a very complex subject though and I don't claim to be an expert......I just read stuff. That's my take on it though.

Clarification: When I say "internal" I mean in the water supply, not internal to the metal alloy. It's something in the water that attacks the grain boundaries of the metal.



rocksteady said:


> Protech, does this stressing need an outside source of corrosion in order to fail? Does the fact that all 3 of the failures were inside a large wine storage cave have anything to do with this? Of the 18 valves I installed 4 were in the caves, 10 were outside and 4 were in a warehouse area. If the stress that was caused during manufacturing needs a corrosive environment could the air in the wine caves be part of the equation?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

The customer is on well water so there's really no telling what might be in it. I don't think they do much more than soften it so maybe I'll grab a sample next time I'm over there and see if I can get it analyzed. 

If this is a problem with manufacturing processes then I wonder if another valve that seems more stout, if made by the same company, wouldn't potentially contain the same manufacturing flaws. :blink: I hope that's not the case. 

I replaced both the hot and cold side valves this time even though only the cold was cracked. I removed both of them without disturbing the connections where the valve met the copper. I have the hot valve in my van right now and I'm going to hold on to it for a few months to see if it cracks just sitting there with the male adapter still threaded in. 












Paul


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I was just reading here that you can relieve the machining stresses by annealing the metal. Of course, that would be a not go for ball valves but it interesting none the less. I know somebody on here was having problems with cracking pex wing-ells. Just set them all in a furnace till they glow and bring the temp down slowly. It's proly better to just not buy that brand though. They obviously aren't doing their quality control on manufacturing.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Did you screw the male adaptors in first then solder your copper?

If so it may be from the heat of the torch that is making the brass of the ball valves fail.

It has happened to me.., tried it the other way and they were fine.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It won't, unless you have some water running thru it.



rocksteady said:


> The customer is on well water so there's really no telling what might be in it. I don't think they do much more than soften it so maybe I'll grab a sample next time I'm over there and see if I can get it analyzed.
> 
> If this is a problem with manufacturing processes then I wonder if another valve that seems more stout, if made by the same company, wouldn't potentially contain the same manufacturing flaws. :blink: I hope that's not the case.
> 
> ...


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> Did you screw the male adaptors in first then solder your copper?
> 
> If so it may be from the heat of the torch that is making the brass of the ball valves fail.
> 
> It has happened to me.., tried it the other way and they were fine.


 
No, I didn't. As long as I have room I always solder the male adapters to a section of copper and then screw it into the ball valves after it's cool and that's how I did all of them on this job. None of these valves (the ones that have failed or the other ones) had heat within about 3" of them.





Paul


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

a good read

"Provided that service and manufacturing process requirements permit, improved resistance to stress corrosion cracking can be achieved by selecting the less susceptible brasses - low zinc rather than high zinc alloys; nickel silver rather than simple brass; aluminium brass rather than admiralty; HTB1 rather than HTB3 for example. Since, however, all brasses are susceptible to stress corrosion cracking to a greater or less extent it is more important to control manufacturing, assembly and operating conditions to avoid the combination of high stress and unfavourable environment that may cause stress corrosion. 
Cold working operations such as pressing, spinning, drawing and bending leave internal stresses which, unless removed or substantially reduced by stress relief heat treatment, can lead to stress corrosion cracking. The optimum time and temperature for stress relief depends upon the alloy but will lie within the range ½ to 1 hour at 250-300oC. A second, avoidable source of dangerously high stress levels that can induce stress corrosion cracking is careless fitting in assembly and installation. *Poor alignment, gaps at joints and overtightening of bolts are obvious examples of bad practice in this respect. One that is not so often recognised is the practice of screwing taper-threaded connectors into parallel-threaded brass valves. Especially when ptfe tape is used to seal the thread, it is all too easy to overtighten such joints to a point where a very high circumferential "hoop" stress is generated in the female member.* There have been many examples of subsequent longitudinal stress corrosion cracking of the valve ends as a result of contact with quite low concentrations of ammonia in service.
The control of the environment in which brass is used may seem an impractical way of ensuring freedom from stress corrosion cracking in service, in view of the wide range of service conditions under which brass articles and components are in daily use, but it is possible to avoid unnecessary exposure to ammoniacal contamination. One source of such contamination that has caused brass fittings, overstressed in assembly, to crack in service is some varieties of foamed plastic insulating material in which amines or other ammonia-related chemicals are used as foaming or curing agents. Chilled water valves in air conditioning units are most likely to be affected since these are subjected to condensed moisture as well as the ammoniacal chemicals. More common, but usually less harmful, sources of ammonia are latex cements used to fix wall and floor tiles and certain household cleaners (which usually advertise their ammonia content as one of their great advantages). The best advice regarding these possible sources of trouble is to provide good ventilation after using latex cement, so that any stressed brass articles in the room have only a short period of exposure to ammonia, and to wash away ammoniacal household cleaner residues after use."


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

http://www.corrosionist.com/Corrosion_Type_Stress_Corrosion_Cracking.htm


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

I would start buying bronze valves. I wonder it it's de-zincification of the brass at an accelerated rate. Just my 2 cents.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

i would stop using that brand name valve, switch to nibco or watts


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## Aussieplumber (Aug 12, 2010)

We get the same problem is Aus.... cheap and crap chinese metals. And we pay top dollar for the **** and need to go back to replace it weeks later at our cost.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

May I suggest


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## Hero Plumber (Sep 2, 2010)

RealLivePlumber said:


> May I suggest


Just do not use WB's Import IP ball valves. I have had 3 split just like the original poster. 3 out of like 20 split. I probably installed 2-300 IP watts-apollo valves and never had a split.

Now the USA made WB valves have more than enough brass.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

I would contact the rep and try and collect for your time. Never hurts to ask, it,s worked for me before. Sometimes they want to pay with product but thats ok too as long as its not the same junk you just replaced.


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