# Testing the Sanitary & Vent System



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

I have a lady who wants a "pressure test" done on her sanitary system. She becomes ill {nausea} and is convinced that there is a leak in her sanitary system.


She wants me to {1} plug all the vents on the roof, {2} then put a test ball in the outside c.o., {3} fill a toilet bowl with water. If the water level goes up and holds in the toilet, then her sanitary system is tight and has no leaks.


She says that the Green county Ohio plumbing inspectors require this on all final tests for new construction. 


Here in FL we do not have to do all this on a final plumbing inspection. Just the usual; water in all the traps, c.o. with a riser in place out front, all fixtures installed and grouted or caulked tight, vacuum breakers on hose spigots and hot and cold water to all fixtures.


Any thoughts?




The story gets better.....


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

You men of course know what an AAV is. This lady *had* {as in past tense} an AAV under the kitchen sink. She paid a plumber to remove it, and extend the stack into the wall, up the wall, into the attic and out the roof!


She also paid him to remove a bathtub to "check to see if the pipes were glued together". She claims that she poured blue glue onto a PVC joint since she "could stick her fingernail between the pipe and fitting" so therefore the joint wasn't glued properly by the original plumbing contractor.


I'm scheduled her for Tuesday morning August 14, 2018.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Run Tommy RUN! I encounter weekly lunatics and this is one of them. You are asking for trouble. You will try to fix an issue and she will find defaults on what you did or what you didn't. Clearly she has a mental problem.

You didn't visit my Soap Opera thread right? If you go to the woman's house I'll be waiting for you to post the outcome so I don't feel all alone posting horror stories! :vs_shocked:


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

Wouldn't a smoke test be more telling?

Cap the vents on the roof whatever day the city decides to do a smoke test. There's not enough pressure for it to blow out of the traps, but you'll definitely find smoke in the house if there's a leak.

I'll hold off on questioning her sanity until you actually do a sniff test in the house.

Your original question : There is no test on final inspection here. Heck sometimes I think even the in wall test is overkill. Had a 20 foot vertical vent from a kitchen sink once that the inspector wanted to see full to the roof. You have got to be kidding me right? This long straight section of pipe that extends above every other roof penetration by at least 10 feet needs to have water in it? Gimme a break.


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

I second a smoke test!
I do them 6-10 times a year... a smoke test finds 95% it drain/venting issues.
1 charge $350 for the test(= 2 smoke bombs)
additional smoke bombs are +$50
And Any/All repairs are extra.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Yes on smoke test.


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

She might very well be right. I would not dismiss someone because of them believing they are getting sick from a leak. Though the way you describe her behavior I am reminded of this lady customer I had earlier this year. This lady definitely had some mental issues as she believed the neighbours had come in to her house and thrown acid all over her downstairs carpet walls and couch. She also thought they had thrown acid on the load bearing timber in her back porch and that they had opened the valve to her lawn sprinkler system so it had froze in the winter. I had to replace the valve to the sprinkler line because it had leaked by and filled the system in the winter. She was nice but had trouble mentally. There are those where they are just different like this lady and then there are those who give you the vibe of trouble and I definitely get the vibe that your customer will be a PITA and you will regret dealing with her. I doubt you would easily see smoke inside the walls in a smoke test. I would first try a simple air pressure test and listen to the walls if I had to do such a job. The test you were talking about is a manometer test where you stick a tube through the toilet trap and blow a little in it to get 1" water column of pressure. Here is a picture. In MN it is code on all final inspections on new construction.









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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

The Dane said:


> She might very well be right. I would not dismiss someone because of them believing they are getting sick from a leak. Though the way you describe her behavior I am reminded of this lady customer I had earlier this year. This lady definitely had some mental issues as she believed the neighbours had come in to her house and thrown acid all over her downstairs carpet walls and couch. She also thought they had thrown acid on the load bearing timber in her back porch and that they had opened the valve to her lawn sprinkler system so it had froze in the winter. I had to replace the valve to the sprinkler line because it had leaked by and filled the system in the winter. She was nice but had trouble mentally. There are those where they are just different like this lady and then there are those who give you the vibe of trouble and I definitely get the vibe that your customer will be a PITA and you will regret dealing with her. I doubt you would easily see smoke inside the walls in a smoke test. I would first try a simple air pressure test and listen to the walls if I had to do such a job. The test you were talking about is a manometer test where you stick a tube through the toilet trap and blow a little in it to get 1" water column of pressure. Here is a picture. In MN it is code on all final inspections on new construction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can you explain a little more how that test is supposed to work?

I've never heard of it before.


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

Alan said:


> Can you explain a little more how that test is supposed to work?
> 
> I've never heard of it before.


Look at the second picture I just added to my post. The one with a yellow stick.You stick the tube of the test gauge through the toilet trap and then stick a second tube through to blow air through and so little is needed that you just blow by mouth a few times. 

The test gauge tube runs up and then loops down and back up. In the U shape of the test tube there is water that at atmospheric pressure will even out in level. 

When you add pressure on the drain side the water in the test tube will be pushed back and one side will raise up a 1/2" while lowering the other side 1/2" and now the level of the water in the U bend will be 1" in difference. 

If even the tiniest leak is present the water will level out again. It's like a super sensitive air test and I have only done a couple and in one we pulled a toilet and put a test ball in the pipe and got lucky now the test held. We replaced the wax ring and reset the toilet but still did not help, we pulled again and inspected the toilet, nothing wrong but still we tried a new toilet instead and now the test held. The toilet would never had leaked but somehow it was the problem. 

You can even blow by mouth hard enough to empty out a trap enough to no longer seal. Every plumber hates that test. The problem with the test is that it is sensitive but has absolutely no help in finding the leak. Not enough pressure to hear a leak or see soap water bubbles

We had a homemade version of that yellow test gauge and on the tube to blow through we had a ball valve to shut off when the gauge got to the 1" Mark.So the pressure would not get lost as you stoped blowing.

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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

The downside with a smoke test or the test The Dane described is she probably won’t believe them. She laid out the test procedure she wants done and probably won’t accept any other as true. 

I’m with Tango on this, Run Tommy run.


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## fixitright (Jan 5, 2012)

Dealing with Whack Jobs is my specialty.
I do a lot of subsidized units.
Once you get known by them an build some trust it all works out well.
Social skills are a must for the self employed. 

And I get paid well!!


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

Debo22 said:


> The downside with a smoke test or the test The Dane described is she probably won’t believe them. She laid out the test procedure she wants done and probably won’t accept any other as true.
> 
> I’m with Tango on this, Run Tommy run.


The test I described is exactly what the customer laid out to be done because she wanted to put air pressure in the system to raise the water level in the toilet bowl. Well when you use the manometer test it actually raised the water level of the toilet bowl and all other traps. You simply use the manometer gauge to better see if there is a drop in the water level.

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## exclamation (Mar 11, 2013)

I’m picturing better call Saul where chuck tears random holes in the walls all over the house to find rfi sources 🙂


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

The Dane said:


> The test I described is exactly what the customer laid out to be done because she wanted to put air pressure in the system to raise the water level in the toilet bowl. Well when you use the manometer test it actually raised the water level of the toilet bowl and all other traps. You simply use the manometer gauge to better see if there is a drop in the water level.
> 
> Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk




















I had a re-model job in an old historic house in Gainesville, FL and in that city they require a manometer for any gas line inspections. It is, as you say, extremely sensitive. A 50psi gauge could lose 1psi and nobody would notice; but a 1/4psi lost on a manometer would definitely show.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

I agree that a smoke test is in order. She has it in her mind that she needs a static pressure test. She was told that the Green county Ohio AHJ near Dayton does this test on all finals and she wants it, so I'll do it.


Then, if needed, I'll do a smoke test for her. Sewer gas is nasty and she may have an actual leak somewhere. 


I also have a carbon monoxide tester and a Bacharach combustible gas detector. I'm wondering if she has a carbon monoxide leak { I forgot to ask her if she has any gas-burning appliances, but I'll find out.}






Thank you to all my highly-esteemed plumbing professional colleagues for your responses.


I don't do smoke tests or static pressure tests, but I'm interested in getting into this. This could be a niche that I could get into.


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

The last gas test I did was losing a fkton of air somewhere. The main incoming to the house was 1-1/4. He was being so cheap at this point rather than buying new fittings for the galvanized line we used some old black iron 90's that were laying around the shop. I don't think they were used, but he went on vacation and when I was testing, they all leaked like a sieve. 

I pulled them apart and half the threads inside of the fitting had turned to powder. Never seen that before. This was about the time I quit, and also the job I messed my shoulder up on, when he told the worker's comp guy that I was doing remodelling work on my house. I'm still salty.

Trying to be cheap because he told them he would do a 5 bath house (over 100 feet in length single story with bathrooms on both ends of the house) for 25k cash.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

plenty of whack jobs out there, but if they have the money to pay you, do whatever test they want you todo but get payment up front and make it a big one...I had some wacky customers and it seems noone would go near them just for that, but if you humor them many had deep pockets to pay..hey im not one to question why as long as they pay...


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## breplum (Mar 21, 2009)

Hey, The Dane,
Is the test you describe in any national or international code book?
I have been trained using the UPC and California's very similar CPC for over 42 years, and none of that type of crazy stuff is found there. The IAPMO who publishes the codes is the most advanced and cautious code authority in the world and they have never had such tests.


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

breplum said:


> Hey, The Dane,
> Is the test you describe in any national or international code book?
> I have been trained using the UPC and California's very similar CPC for over 42 years, and none of that type of crazy stuff is found there. The IAPMO who publishes the codes is the most advanced and cautious code authority in the world and they have never had such tests.


It used to be in Minnesota's own code book but now that they adopted the UPC by reference it can be found in the 2015 minnesota code book. You can find a free copy of it online and print out like I did. I took a picture of it for you.

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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

The Dane said:


> It used to be in Minnesota's own code book but now that they adopted the UPC by reference it can be found in the 2015 minnesota code book. You can find a free copy of it online and print out like I did. I took a picture of it for you.
> 
> Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk














I appreciate the responses from you.


Update: I went out today to do this test. I put a 4" test ball in the outside c.o., then since I don't have enough testballs, {they have [6] roof vents} I used a blue Nitrile glove on a few of the roof vents.....LOL. Well, apparently that isn't approved {mind you, I've not only never done this test before, but haven't even heard of it until this lady from up north called me up requesting it}.


So, I'm going back next week to ball up all the roof vents and have another go at it.


Here's what I asked the husband: "So, after I do this static pressure test, if there is a leak in the DWV, then you want a smoke test done, right?"


He says no. Once they have convincing evidence of a leak in the DWV, he wants to speak with the attorney and sue the builder. He asked me if I would be willing to say in court that my test is sound, and would I testify, etc. My plumber buddy in town told me that he would not get involved.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

LMAO......now you will be dragged into court, or tell them you will be the paid expert to testify...


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

The Dane said:


> If even the tiniest leak is present the water will level out again. It's like a super sensitive air test and I have only done a couple and in one we pulled a toilet and put a test ball in the pipe and got lucky now the test held. We replaced the wax ring and reset the toilet but still did not help, we pulled again and inspected the toilet, nothing wrong *but still we tried a new toilet instead and now the test held. The toilet would never had leaked but somehow it was the problem.*
> 
> You can even blow by mouth hard enough to empty out a trap enough to no longer seal. Every plumber hates that test. The problem with the test is that it is sensitive but has absolutely no help in finding the leak. Not enough pressure to hear a leak or see soap water bubbles
> 
> ...
















A plumber friend of mine down in S. FL with over {40} years in the trade told me the exact same thing he discovered doing a smoke test. He said that some new toilets do not compress the wax to make a gas-tight seal. His specialty is smoke testing old building from West Palm Beach down to Miami with cracked cast iron. He has pest-control companies calling him to find the source of rats, roaches and sewer flies in buildings. 


I've been consulting with him on this particular case that I'm involved in.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> LMAO......now you will be dragged into court, *or tell them you will be the paid expert* *to testify*...






















You must have been reading my mind.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> LMAO......now you will be dragged into court, or tell them you will be the paid expert to testify...


The plot thickens! SNAFU

On your next visit I would put in writing and for them to sign it before you proceed that if you are subpoenaed or need to testify your rate applies to prepare before hand and during the hearing due to lost time. I don't know if it is legal but whatever you won't like it when they drag you.

They will back off if you ask a lot of money. They are trying to sucker you in just a little more until SNAP! venus fly trap.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I got some very wise words last week from ShtRnsdownhill

It went a little like this... F__ the back off!


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

Unless you know it's a case of some low life doing unlicensed plumbing I would not get involved for the life of me unless I ended up being required by law to do so. ALWAYS stay out of the courtroom if you can. Involvement in such matters will end up hurting you.

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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

The Dane said:


> Unless you know it's a case of some low life doing unlicensed plumbing I would not get involved for the life of me unless I ended up being required by law to do so. ALWAYS stay out of the courtroom if you can. Involvement in such matters will end up hurting you.
> 
> Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


it doesnt matter once you get the court subpoena your obligated by law to go and the court dont care your loosing money going to court...any job I get called to that was started or done crappy and the people mention lawyers or litigation I just back away from and tell them nothing other than im too busy to do it anytime soon...because 99.9% of the time its way more headache than any money you can make on it...


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> it doesnt matter once you get the court subpoena your obligated by law to go and the court dont care your loosing money going to court...any job I get called to that was started or done crappy and the people mention lawyers or litigation I just back away from and tell them nothing other than im too busy to do it anytime soon...because 99.9% of the time its way more headache than any money you can make on it...


When I wrote "always stay out of the courtroom if you can" I meant it like you said it. Hear about a legal matter and boom I just got booked for the next 2 months. I would though be ready to testify if it meant getting rid of an unlicensed hack in my area.

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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

*As this topic talks about smoke testing*

*Here is an item well worth is salt ...

Copy this and save the link ... *

*http://www.upfrontprice.com/galleryimg/smoker_intro.htm*


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> *Here is an item well worth is salt ...
> 
> Copy this and save the link ... *
> 
> *http://www.upfrontprice.com/galleryimg/smoker_intro.htm*



the problem is that any home built contraption has no certifications of how it will work or specs on it, so any test will not be valid as no governing body has approved it.....yes it may work just fine, but I dont see any inspector or municipality risking litigation if it doesnt put enough pressure into the system to show small leaks or even large leaks..


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## exclamation (Mar 11, 2013)

I had a boss years ago that did dispensations for court cases - nothing as far as I know that our company worked on - just basically an expert opinion for the court - 100% it was paid work. Not sure how it would work in this case, but I’m sure that your report would say everything that you would be able to verbally say anyway and serve as a stand in for you.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

exclamation said:


> I had a boss years ago that did dispensations for court cases - nothing as far as I know that our company worked on - just basically an expert opinion for the court - 100% it was paid work. Not sure how it would work in this case, but I’m sure that your report would say everything that you would be able to verbally say anyway and serve as a stand in for you.


 nope...the opposing attorney cant cross examine a piece of paper, so a personal appearance would be a must...and it will get ugly...

being a paid expert witness makes you good money and depending on what side your being paid is how you put a twist on your testimony...
as they say" im here to testalie on your behalf"....


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> it doesnt matter once you get the court subpoena your obligated by law to go and the court dont care your loosing money going to court...any job I get called to that was started or done crappy and the people mention lawyers or litigation I just back away from and tell them nothing other than im too busy to do it anytime soon...because 99.9% of the time its way more headache than any money you can make on it...


I called the police once because someone left an abandoned car in the street for over 3-4 months.

Well cripes I was subpoenaed to testify to the evening court in front a judge and prosecutor. The guy didn't show but I still had to tell what I saw and speak in front of a full room. Waste of time and nerve wracking as hell worrying the culprit would know who it was who called for retaliation.

Next time it will be anonymous.


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