# Fernco couplings



## user823

I was curious about code acceptance from state to state using the fernco rubber couplings, the ones without the SS bands. Does your state allow them to be used? On soil stacks, vent stacks, branches? 
I use the no hub bands with the ss shield for transitions from CI to PVC but have been seeing a lot of the UNbanded couplings lately. Any thoughts?


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## PLUMB TIME

*Ferncos*

Not allowed in Il. must have s.s. band and use approved adaptor. If I have to use one I prefer the pressure type with four hose clamps:thumbsup:


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## pauliplumber

In Massachusetts the steel banded clamps can be used. Mostly referred to as mission clamps here.


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## smythers1968

Here in Kansas all codes are up to the local cities not state regulated.

Here they are allowed either fernco or no hub


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## SPH

Here we have 3 main types:

Fernco, Cremco, and Steel Band.

Steel Band are the only ones rated to pass through a fire seperation.

Cremcos are great for ease of installation and looks, but we have had alot of problems with them not holding a test. Cremcos will not pass inspection if they are used to go through a fire seperation.

Ferncos are typically not used on new installation due to price, more of a servicemans product, or for a quick fix on a new installation.


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## ILPlumber

PLUMB TIME said:


> Not allowed in Il. must have s.s. band and use approved adaptor. If I have to use one I prefer the pressure type with four hose clamps:thumbsup:


There is 1 place they are allowed in IL. When transitioning from size or material type on a building sewer. 

890.340 h)


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## user4

PLUMB TIME said:


> Not allowed in Il. must have s.s. band and use approved adaptor. If I have to use one I prefer the pressure type with four hose clamps:thumbsup:


No hub couplings of any kind are not allowed in Chicago.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

They should be banned in all 78 states.


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## Plumber Jim

No Hub bands are aloud here in colorado but not sure about the ferncos.

Plumber Jim


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## gladerunner

allowed above ground with full metal jacket here in philadelphia. Also allowed 1 on street side of curb trap when replacing with departmental approval. If we use it on curb trap we need to encase in concrete.


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## nhmaster3015

They are allowed for every use here.

I agree with the Roast Duck

I wish I lived in Illinois where plumbing is still plumbing.

How many times have your got a call for a plugged drain and it turns out that some dooooshbag clamped the pipes together with a Fernco and didn't bother to support the pipe so the end droops on one side and blocks the drain?


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## SPH

There is no problem with nohub couplings if they are installed properly, same with most other plumbing products.

pleeaaase dont turn this into a "pex dispute" thread...


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## user4

SPH said:


> There is no problem with nohub couplings if they are installed properly, same with most other plumbing products.
> 
> pleeaaase dont turn this into a "pex dispute" thread...


No matter how you install them they still burn, could be a problem for the men trying to fight the fire when fittings start raining down.


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## Protech

If that was the case, the code would say "everything 5' above FF must be lead and oakum." why would a fernco or no-hub in a first floor wall or underground be a danger to firemen? Furthermore, if they are so worried about raining fittings then why not abs or pvc. Another question: How would you do borosilicate systems for special wastes? If raining fittings is such a big concern with cast you could also run support channels made of steel.

I think the real issue is they want to keep the trade difficult to keep labor rates high. I can certainly understand where they are coming from, but I still don't think they are justified in what they are doing.


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## Protech

Ferncos are great for transitioning from a 4" sch.40 PVC to a 6" terracotta city tap. I wouldn't do it any other way.


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## user4

Protech said:


> If that was the case, the code would say "everything 5' above FF must be lead and oakum." why would a fernco or no-hub in a first floor wall or underground be a danger to firemen? Furthermore, if they are so worried about raining fittings then why not abs or pvc. Another question: How would you do borosilicate systems for special wastes? If raining fittings is such a big concern with cast you could also run support channels made of steel.
> 
> I think the real issue is they want to keep the trade difficult to keep labor rates high. I can certainly understand where they are coming from, but I still don't think they are justified in what they are doing.


Now you're thinking, replace the iron pipe with something like PVC and add fuel to fire and provide a surefire way of making sure the fire gets all the way to the roof.

Glass fittings don't break a man's neck, 8" NH fittings can and have done that very thing here.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

They're not legal above ground for obvious reasons since they balloon when the system goes into failure mode. Heat from high water temperatures *IE dishwasher, laundry waste* distorts them very quickly.


Damn sump pumps are another prime example of a rubber boot that hardens over time, the stainless steel clamps aren't completely stainless steel, just the band not the worm gear. That's why compression checks are gaining popularity. 

*Fernco's give the uneducated a new ability to do plumbing for themselves.*


I can't begin to start and say how many times I've seen ferncos underground that allow 2 pipes to lose alignment, slip, pull off, not because the plumber didn't do their job right,

but groundwater movements that changed direction underground years later and that flimsy connection started to give way when the mother earth started pushing down and there's nothing to prevent it from holding in place.

There's times I've used them, but I know I'm putting in a product that is something that isn't made to perform in a function other than a repair. 

What's BS is they could make a hard transition fitting with rubber inner sleevves and bands, make something that holds up without failure points.


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## Protech

Maybe you should make them and market them. I’d buy them.



Roast Duck said:


> They're not legal above ground for obvious reasons since they balloon when the system goes into failure mode. Heat from high water temperatures *IE dishwasher, laundry waste* distorts them very quickly.
> 
> 
> Damn sump pumps are another prime example of a rubber boot that hardens over time, the stainless steel clamps aren't completely stainless steel, just the band not the worm gear. That's why compression checks are gaining popularity.
> 
> *Fernco's give the uneducated a new ability to do plumbing for themselves.*
> 
> 
> I can't begin to start and say how many times I've seen ferncos underground that allow 2 pipes to lose alignment, slip, pull off, not because the plumber didn't do their job right,
> 
> but groundwater movements that changed direction underground years later and that flimsy connection started to give way when the mother earth started pushing down and there's nothing to prevent it from holding in place.
> 
> There's times I've used them, but I know I'm putting in a product that is something that isn't made to perform in a function other than a repair.
> 
> What's BS is they could make a hard transition fitting with rubber inner sleevves and bands, make something that holds up without failure points.


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## Protech

Gotcha, 8" glass is OK, but 2" no-hub CI is not. Check.

PVC is used in high rise construction all over the world. Fire collars.



Killertoiletspider said:


> Now you're thinking, replace the iron pipe with something like PVC and add fuel to fire and provide a surefire way of making sure the fire gets all the way to the roof.
> 
> Glass fittings don't break a man's neck, 8" NH fittings can and have done that very thing here.


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## Protech

You still haven't explained why one couldn't just use channel supports for CI no-hub.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Protech said:


> Maybe you should make them and market them. I’d buy them.


 


I need a working relationship with the chinese to do that. Charlotte would snuff me before I had a chance to make the first dime with it.


I will say one thing, I bet money that someday we'll see push-fit drainage systems, no more glue and cleaner someday. VOC's are horrible for the body and just because plumbers aren't dead because of it, doesn't mean it's not causing harm.

It's bad stuff people and I like the fact I'm not around it every day.


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## user4

Protech said:


> Gotcha, 8" glass is OK, but 2" no-hub CI is not. Check.
> 
> PVC is used in high rise construction all over the world. Fire collars.


When is the last time you installed 8" glass pipe?


Don't bother, you haven't, 6" is the largest they make.

Fire collars do not stop fire from traveling if the pipe itself is on fire, it is a proven fact, and I would love to see an example of a building being built in the last ten years over ten stories with plastic stacks.

Do you design systems for a lot of new high rises?


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## Protech

Actually, about 5 years ago I did a 16 story commercial/resi sovent system that was ALL pvc and cpvc with the exception of the aerators and de-aerators. Water, sanitary and rain leaders where all plastic.

Lake buena vista Florida. I was working for JA Crosen. Welbro was the GC. Look it up. I believe that is Orange County. If not orange then it is Osceola County.


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## user4

Protech said:


> Actually, about 5 years ago I did a 16 story commercial/resi sovent system that was ALL pvc and cpvc with the exception of the aerators and de-aerators. Water, sanitary and rain leaders where all plastic.
> 
> Lake buena vista Florida. I was working for JA Crosen. Welbro was the GC. Look it up. I believe that is Orange County. If not orange then it is Osceola County.



I hope you have a maintenance agreement with the building, it should prove to be a goldmine over the years.


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## Protech

I'm wondering how it will hold up from thermal cycling but that doesn't change the fact that it IS plastic.


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## user4

Protech said:


> I'm wondering how it will hold up from thermal cycling but that doesn't change the fact that it IS plastic.


The vast majority of states have realized that plastic plumbing and tall buildings are not a good combination, I am not at all surprised that Florida is not one of them. I know of third world countries that don't allow plastic piping in high rise buildings.


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## nhmaster3015

Roast Duck said:


> I need a working relationship with the chinese to do that. Charlotte would snuff me before I had a chance to make the first dime with it.
> 
> 
> I will say one thing, I bet money that someday we'll see push-fit drainage systems, no more glue and cleaner someday. VOC's are horrible for the body and just because plumbers aren't dead because of it, doesn't mean it's not causing harm.
> 
> It's bad stuff people and I like the fact I'm not around it every day.


They are already here, I have a 4" double wye and and 4 x 3 coupling sitting on mys desk.


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## Hyper Piper

Roast Duck stated:
but groundwater movements that changed direction underground years later and that flimsy connection started to give way when the mother earth started pushing down and there's nothing to prevent it from holding in place.


If "Mother Earth starts pushing down" and your installation is not properly bedded, no plumbing material known to man will stand up.


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## nhmaster3015

I believe this pretty much sums it up.


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## Protech

I'm still waiting to hear why you can't use no hub underground on the first floor and underground as well as channel supports for areas higher than that.


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## user4

Protech said:


> I'm still waiting to hear why you can't use no hub underground on the first floor and underground as well as channel supports for areas higher than that.


NH is not approved for underground here, it never has been.

Why in the hell would you go to the expense of continously supporting when you can just use hub and spigot pipe with lead joints? 

Do you really believe some of the crap you post?


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## undispised

hub bands are allowed here but not undergroung


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## Protech

Getting a bit testy spider?

I don't know what you mean about NH not being allowed underground. That must be some code in your area. I've never heard of that and I've jacked up many a slab with NH underneath.

WHY is NH not allowed underground there?

I really have no idea how much labor pouring lead adds over NH on a whole job, but I bet it works out pretty close to what the chanel supports would cost.

BTW spider, why do you get bent out of shape so easy?


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## SPH

it would seem that the union must be strong in illinois, killing the plumbing industry like detroit did the auto industry..


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## U&I Plumber

State of Oregon *REQUIRES* fernco connection at septic tank to allow for an amount of settling while not destroying the lateral.

When I did the Deschutes County Library all of the undergorund including the 6" cast was husky bands as specs called for. 

This is a ford vrs chevy debate here.


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## user4

SPH said:


> it would seem that the union must be strong in illinois, killing the plumbing industry like detroit did the auto industry..


If you don't know the difference between a trade union and a labor union I don't need to bother wasting my time discussing anything with you, you wouldn't have the wit to grasp it anyway.


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## nhmaster3015

There are three city's in NH that still require No Hub under slab. long ago I got into a toe to toe with an inspector that insisted it was better to have 50 no hub clamps under ground than PVC. Idiot! anyhooo I lost the argument. I have never been a big fan of no hub, but it is a lot less work than pouring lead, no doubt.


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## Protech

Then why is your name N.H. Master? No-Hub Master:laughing:


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## nhmaster3015

Perhaps... but I am a Master Debator :thumbsup:


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## WillmarJ

for minnesota, you can use a fernco under ground but not above ground. As for above ground, we can use the mission bands (full stainless steel band) or the no hubs for the cast iron.


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## user823

WillmarJ said:


> for minnesota, you can use a fernco under ground but not above ground. As for above ground, we can use the mission bands (full stainless steel band) or the no hubs for the cast iron.


Welcome to the Plumbing Zone, nice to have another plumber from Minnesota around.:thumbsup:


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## WillmarJ

thanks iron ranger


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## service guy

Ahh, who cares, just use duct tape like the DIYer geniuses. It works great on pvc AND cast iron. I use it for everything!:thumbsup:


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## WestCoastPlumber

service guy said:


> Ahh, who cares, just use duct tape like the DIYer geniuses. It works great on pvc AND cast iron. I use it for everything!:thumbsup:


 

Yeah, I agree, I wrap a few extra go arounds with duct tape, and then if the customer wants to go the extra mile, I slam some DAP on it and give them and extra warranty.....:whistling2:

Stupid hacks. (not u service guy)


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## Protech

I've been thinking about this thread allot lately so I'm going to resurrect it.

No one has explained yet why you can't run NH below head level in Chicago (other than union interests). Nor why hub and spigot cast iron with neoprene grommets couldn't be used. Another solution to running pvc is to simply convert to CI when penetrating floors and fire walls.

The only conclusion i can come to is that it's really just union interests. I'm not just making this up like some crazy conspiracy theory, I hear it outta union guys mouths constantly. I was talking to a union guy a year ago about why he liked cast iron so much. I told him about how I'm constantly ripping the stuff out and putting in pvc because the bottom rusts out. You know what his reply was? He said "Well, you've got to look towards the future. What would we all do for work if plumbing never went bad?" How ever true or untrue that logic is I DISPISE IT.



Killertoiletspider said:


> NH is not approved for underground here, it never has been.
> 
> Why in the hell would you go to the expense of continously supporting when you can just use hub and spigot pipe with lead joints?
> 
> Do you really believe some of the crap you post?


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## TheMaster

:laughing:Oh God protect you did it now:laughing:


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## Proud Plumber

Question- Aren't there expansion fittings for plastic DWV systems in high rise settings that aid in protecting the system?

Asking for knowledge, I have only worked on 5 story it was PVC under ground and CI no hub the rest of the way.


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## ILPlumber

I don't believe expansion fittings would work well on vertical stacks.

The pipe must be supported at every floor. The pipe has nowhere to "go"

High rises and pvc stacks are a bad idea. IMO.

I could see having cast stacks with PVC drains at each floor hitting the cast stack.


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## Protech

The only thing that I could see that would have taken up some of the expansion would be the mega clamps on the sovents.


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## Proud Plumber

ILPlumber said:


> I don't believe expansion fittings would work well on vertical stacks.
> 
> The pipe must be supported at every floor. The pipe has nowhere to "go"
> 
> High rises and pvc stacks are a bad idea. IMO.
> 
> I could see having cast stacks with PVC drains at each floor hitting the cast stack.


Thanks IL


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## user4

Protech said:


> I've been thinking about this thread allot lately so I'm going to resurrect it.
> 
> No one has explained yet why you can't run NH below head level in Chicago (other than union interests). Nor why hub and spigot cast iron with neoprene grommets couldn't be used. Another solution to running pvc is to simply convert to CI when penetrating floors and fire walls.
> 
> The only conclusion i can come to is that it's really just union interests. I'm not just making this up like some crazy conspiracy theory, I hear it outta union guys mouths constantly. I was talking to a union guy a year ago about why he liked cast iron so much. I told him about how I'm constantly ripping the stuff out and putting in pvc because the bottom rusts out. You know what his reply was? He said "Well, you've got to look towards the future. What would we all do for work if plumbing never went bad?" How ever true or untrue that logic is I DISPISE IT.


Neoprene burns just as easily as PVC, and it has nothing to do with unions, please take your anti union agenda elsewhere.


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## Protech

If it's supported at every floor then it's just going to expand up causing all the horizontal braches that dump into it loose pitch or start to back pitch.

It was clamped at every floor. I didn't design that system. It was designed by an engineer and we were strictly forbidden to modify the dwv system from the plans without having the engineer sign for it. As I said before, I think the expansion was taken up by the mega clamps on each floor so that it didn't build up along the height of the stack. I do remember that they specifically wanted megaclamps on the tops and bottoms of all the sovents and no other type of "rubber"(no hub) was allowed but only on the top and bottom. They didn't care about horizontal connections.


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## Protech

What does the grommet burning have to do with anything. And no thank you.



Killertoiletspider said:


> Neoprene burns just as easily as PVC, and it has nothing to do with unions, please take your anti union agenda elsewhere.


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## user4

Protech said:


> If it's supported at every floor then it's just going to expand up causing all the horizontal braches that dump into it loose pitch or start to back pitch.
> 
> It was clamped at every floor. I didn't design that system. It was designed by an engineer and we were strictly forbidden to modify the dwv system from the plans with having the engineer sign for it. As I said before, I think the expansion was taken up by the mega clamps on each floor so that it didn't build up along the height of the stack. I do remember that they specifically wanted megaclamps on the tops and bottoms of all the sovents and no other type of "rubber"(no hub) was allowed but only on the top and bottom. They didn't care about horizontal connections.



Engineers are not plumbers, and when it comes to actually installing systems they will defer to plumbers that have a far better knowledge of the materials and what they are capable of.


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## Protech

Well, on this job if you wanted to win the bid you had to agree to do it the engineers way not your way. If da work don't match da plans you dont' get paid. Say what you like about it but that is how it was.


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## Proud Plumber

Killertoiletspider said:


> Engineers are not plumbers, and when it comes to actually installing systems they will defer to plumbers that have a far better knowledge of the materials and what they are capable of.


I do agree with your point, but with my experience with engineers here, they are not plumbers and do not know our code. They are rather GOD himself. I am dealing with one right now on a simple roof drain emergency overflow.:furious: It is a question of how much he will let me scratch his ego on his 4 year degree. 

Since hurricane Andrew plastered Homestead engineers here have been given an unbridled authority. We are required to submit a great deal of unneeded info to engineers and request change orders, followed by hair from from first born, your personal vehicle title, an envelope of un marked bills, and 15 minutes behind the woodshed with your wife all to do your job properly.


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## TheMaster

Charlotte pipe does not reccommend the use of pvc for more than a 3 story building. They would rather you use non-combustible cast iron. They say considerations must be made in the design of pvc systems 4 storys and over. Thats as far as they took it.


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## TheMaster

Proud Plumber said:


> I do agree with your point, but with my experience with engineers here, they are not plumbers and do not know our code. They are rather GOD himself. I am dealing with one right now on a simple roof drain emergency overflow.:furious: It is a question of how much he will let me scratch his ego on his 4 year degree.
> 
> Since hurricane Andrew plastered Homestead engineers here have been given an unbridled authority. We are required to submit a great deal of unneeded info to engineers and request change orders, followed by hair from from first born, your personal vehicle title, an envelope of un marked bills, and 15 minutes behind the woodshed with your wife all to do your job properly.


 Here an engineer is just like a KING> He can approve anything that he see fit for public use and signs his name to it and is actually on the jobsite overseeing the work. He is responsible for any problems that arise out of the design for a specified amount of time and holds a bond with the city to insure the intrest of the public!!!!


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## ILPlumber

Just remember, what the engineer draws or specs does not supercede plumbing code. 

I'm going circles with an engineer now over him not wanting a grease trap for the kitchen drains.


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## Protech

With 50oF of ΔT one floor of pvc will move .18". That's not a terrible amount of movement for a fat piece of neoprene like a mega clamp or two to take up.


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## Protech

The same here. There are many parts of Fl code that allow an engineer to bend the rules but the key thing is that he becomes completely liable if he does so.



TheMaster said:


> Here an engineer is just like a KING> He can approve anything that he see fit for public use and signs his name to it and is actually on the jobsite overseeing the work. He is responsible for any problems that arise out of the design for a specified amount of time and holds a bond with the city to insure the intrest of the public!!!!


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## Protech

Also, if you assume that the whole sovent was to rise with that expansion (I'm not saying that it would but just a "what if") and the last 4 feet of horizontal pipe dumping into said sovent rose with it, it would only reduce the pitch of that section of pipe by about .045"/ft or about 1/22"per ft in fraction.


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## user4

Protech said:


> Well, on this job if you wanted to win the bid you had to agree to do it the engineers way not your way. If da work don't match da plans you dont' get paid. Say what you like about it but that is how it was.


If the work don't meet the code you don't get paid either, and engineers do not dictate plumbing code here, they defer to it. Ask an engineer to design and size the stacks for an 80 story building and you will get a mess that will not work in return. I had an engineer tell me I needed a ten inch stack for a twenty six story kitchen stack.


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## Protech

Well the thing is, it isn't against code here. You can argue that it's a bad idea till you're blue in the face but it was within code and he was calling the shots on that one.

Another thing about that job. We used 3m fire collars on all of the floor penetrations but we transitioned to cast iron for 4' with mission bands when we went horizontally threw a fire wall. Why? Cuz the engineer said so.


Killertoiletspider said:


> If the work don't meet the code you don't get paid either, and engineers do not dictate plumbing code here, they defer to it. Ask an engineer to design and size the stacks for an 80 story building and you will get a mess that will not work in return. I had an engineer tell me I needed a ten inch stack for a twenty six story kitchen stack.


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## Protech

This guy has done plastic highrise as well:
http://www.plumbingzone.com/members...-work-all/370-hotel-ashburn-va-6-floors-hell/


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## HandsomeMike

St. Louis fernco only on under-ground. We just renovated a really nice hotel downtown that was only twenty years old. Backfall everywhere! Apparently as soon as the ferncos where hit with hot water everything went to hell after the original install. We fixed everything we found. I don't know how they got away with all those ferncos back in the day. It was definitley the new construction and not maintainance. A lot of the cast iron was cracking badly or just colapsing on itself. Some of the older guys said around the time it was built there had been alot of cast iron recalled, or should have been. I love putting in cast, but now I am sure I never want it in my home. I guess the kitchen staff did not miss the hundreds of baking pans the maintainence guys had been putting in the ceilings all those years. Anyway, ferncos only under and shielded no hub bands above.


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## HandsomeMike

Just read whole thread. Are you guys really trying to bad mouth the union plumbers now. Wow, talk about crapping where you eat.


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## Protech

It may surprise you that over half of the plumbers in the united states are NON-union so it's only crapping where you eat if you are one of those minority plumbers.

For me it's just calling a spade, a spade. There are good aspects of the union but I'll still point out the bad because it seems no one else will.


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## HandsomeMike

Fair enough,I hope we can agree to disagree. It just bothers me that in a chatroom that might be half and half, some people might want to bring up topis that would intentionally divide us. The union sets the pay scale in all the areas we work. That was the reson for my juvenile response. In my area, we retain 80% of the new residential market and it's not because of blowing up cars. I would like to think it is because of the superour quality we deliever in the same ammount of hours.


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## ILPlumber

We could surely beat this horse into oblivion. I choose not to debate or argue or whatever else you guys call it. Folks can say whatever they please about union/non-union shops.

I just know this:

Never and I mean NEVER lump folks all together. Some union guys are lazy. Some non-union guys are hacks. So be it. Everyone should be thanking their lucky effin stars they have a job union or not.


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## HandsomeMike

As an unemployeed loud mouth,I agree.


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## ILPlumber

You made me laugh out loud brother. Thanks!:laughing:


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