# New furnace and a/c... How much?



## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Went to visit grandma today and was floored by the story she told me. Here goes:

CO monitor started beeping a week or so ago. She bugged my grandfather, but he is battling with dimensia so bad that it fell on deaf ears. "it's not like the thing was freaking out or anything, just the odd beep or two, here or there". She finally convinced gramps to go down and check it out, and she sent him with a package of batteries. My grandfather was an engineer/designer for TRW for 35+ years and was on the forefront of CAD when it came around. Anyway, he attempted to change the batteries and came up telling grandma that everything was fine. Later on when she was doing laundry, she noticed that it was not working at all. She called my uncle who lives next door who came over and installed the batts in the correct orientation. Unit resumed operation, but initially read 0ppm. My uncle left. 

Several hours later, my grandma heard it beep again and got worried. She called "Service Experts", ( local hvac Big box contractor) and scheduled a cleaning/inspection for $99.

They showed up, and within 5 minutes came up to tell her that the h/e is cracked and she'd need a new furnace. Gramma sighed and said something to the effect of having to get a couple of quotes. That's when the tech became rude. 

He told her that if that's the route she wanted to take, he would red tag the furnace and lock it out immediately. But if she would just agree to let them perform the work, he could leave the existing operational until they could come back and swap it out. He swore their prices were competitive, and then asked if he could look at her a/c.

Long story short, they were back a day and a half later, put in a high efficiency Lennox, and I'm not sure which a/c.

I saw the invoice, all said and done, out the door...

Are you ready?

$10,070.00

Now I know for a fact, as I've made a few phone calls, that through my various contacts, this work could have been done for a couple grand less. Two plenum transition pieces, new PVC vent kit, new condensate pump.

Anybody here do this kind of work?
Is this price even in the realm of possibility or did these guys just hose a couple of seniors? Thoughts?


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I do. 

It does seem a bit pricey. Well, maybe a tad high. 

Figure 2 men 2 days. 

Furnace prolly costs them 1500. 

Coil 450. 

Condenser 1200.

Misc material, what, like 500.00 Might have to line the chimney if it is still serving a wh. 

add in profit, contingency.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

U.A.til.I.die said:


> Went to visit grandma today and was floored by the story she told me. Here goes:
> 
> CO monitor started beeping a week or so ago. She bugged my grandfather, but he is battling with dimensia so bad that it fell on deaf ears. "it's not like the thing was freaking out or anything, just the odd beep or two, here or there". She finally convinced gramps to go down and check it out, and she sent him with a package of batteries. My grandfather was an engineer/designer for TRW for 35+ years and was on the forefront of CAD when it came around. Anyway, he attempted to change the batteries and came up telling grandma that everything was fine. Later on when she was doing laundry, she noticed that it was not working at all. She called my uncle who lives next door who came over and installed the batts in the correct orientation. Unit resumed operation, but initially read 0ppm. My uncle left.
> 
> ...


Wasn't/isn't "Service Experts" Jim Abrams' HVAC company(I actually think he sold it long ago)? What would they be doing messing around with the box?


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Why if the furnace had a hole in the heat exchanger would you have to install new A-coil and compressor I'm not hvac licensed so I never touch the coil and usually no need I've changed 100s of furnaces and tops would be 5k

Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone


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## Ruudplumber (Feb 21, 2011)

that seems pretty steep..... have been doing furnace and a/c change outs for a 5900 gas furnace and new a/c. Furnace only 2800.


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## Ruudplumber (Feb 21, 2011)

thats another thing you open yourself up to with installing lennox. They love their replacement parts...... tack on 300 % and make them odd ball as hell. lennox was always top of the line. but lately the stuff i have been seeing put in isn't much better than a goodman unit.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

They strong-armed your grandparents by using scare tactics. Then they over-charged them by a few thousand dollars. I'd be hopping mad.

Did these scheisters pull a permit...:whistling2: That's your leverage, if you want any leverage, (if in fact no permits were pulled).


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

The couple grand could be the difference between a large established outfit and a small outfit. Their overhead is more (GM, salesman commission, marketing, etc) and their service should reflect a higher level of value (efficiency from being well staffed, trained background checked drug tested professionals, service after the sale) that smaller shops can fall short on. Having said that, IF an honest diagnosis was given with options and prices, an agreement was reached, and install was professional, I would not judge on price alone. (we all like to make a living worth living - why judge others for doing just that). BUT! If there was an unethical sale using scare tactics and such, or the install was less than professional, I would be calling them on it for sure. If that's the case, get your facts and documents together before contacting them and know what you want out of them to put them on the spot and in a position to act, not investigate.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

This is a good example of customer abuse. Couple things went wrong with this job. 

1. Called Service Experts. My experience with them is they are usually the highest around. Rarely do they install low end stuff. This does not make them bad guys, but certainly pushes it. 

2. Grandma signed with the first company to come out, so she had no real options. 

To be fair to the company, you would need to spell out what the scope of labor. What equipment was used. 

If it was Lennox, then the $1500 for the cost of the unit was to low. I worked for a company that installed Lennox, and only the lowest end stuff was that cheap. 

It does sound high.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Yes. LONG ago. There are some at CW that started in the field at SE. I think Terry and Lon did. 




smellslike$tome said:


> Wasn't/isn't "Service Experts" Jim Abrams' HVAC company(I actually think he sold it long ago)? What would they be doing messing around with the box?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Sounds like an outfit I wouldn't want showing up at my mom's house....:whistling2:


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## PlumberDave (Jan 4, 2009)

$10,070 for a 95% 80kbtu from an 80% and a 14 SEER 3 ton A/C a decent price if done right. A couple of weeks back I did the same with a 16 SEER 3 ton heat pump for 12, two real good guys and a 12 hour straight run. All American Standard equipment. Permitted with a sparky for the breaker to the disconnect. Can any Shop beat that yea! But my company needs the 12.
"Scare Tactic" with a holed H/E and a CO alarm sounding I do not leave the premises before the gas company shows up or the HO lets me disable it, Sure it can be used as a "Scare Tactic" but I have yet to do a replacement without multiple bids in those situations. I have supplied space heaters.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

It is a bit high. Not out of the ballpark but still. What I don't like though is the tactics used. As for changing the coil and compresser, It's not a bad idea to update everything at once and in some localaties if the old equipment does not come up to energy code you have too.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

I would say it's in the neighborhood of 2k overpriced.


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

Man They took advantage of a senior couple. There is a nice hot place in hell for that tech.
I say the price is a bit high for my parts. The lennox equipment sucks. Like some one else stated. The replacements parts are a pita and pricey.

I sub for a hvac contractor. When I find a cracked HE. I take pics and give a bid for 3 grades of equipment.

I want to know why the ac was replaced? Can you post some pics of the install so we can pick it apart


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## affordabledrain (Nov 24, 2009)

Also When i go to a call for a co alarm. I use my own meter. and Use a combustion analiyzer on the furnace. and document everything. I have seen Kiddie brand alarm give false readings way too many times.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

affordabledrain said:


> Man They took advantage of a senior couple. There is a nice hot place in hell for that tech.
> I say the price is a bit high for my parts. The lennox equipment sucks. Like some one else stated. The replacements parts are a pita and pricey.
> 
> I sub for a hvac contractor. When I find a cracked HE. I take pics and give a bid for 3 grades of equipment.
> ...


Give me a couple days and I'll get some pics for you vultures! Bump the thread or send me a pm in a couple days to remind me.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Duplicate... Isn't there an existing thread about these stupid iPhones...?


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

I really don't know anything about HVAC stuff so I can't comment on the price but I would have to take issue with the tactics used to close the sale.





Paul


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

rocksteady said:


> I really don't know anything about HVAC stuff so I can't comment on the price but I would have to take issue with the tactics used to close the sale.
> 
> Paul


Does anyone here think it's worth a complaint with the BBB? I don't know how that sort of thing works.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

At least speak with the manager of the company first. 



U.A.til.I.die said:


> Does anyone here think it's worth a complaint with the BBB? I don't know how that sort of thing works.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

ckoch407 said:


> At least speak with the manager of the company first.


I considered that, but what will that accomplish? What would I say?


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## wundumguy (Apr 3, 2010)

> He told her that if that's the route she wanted to take, he would red tag the furnace and lock it out immediately. But if she would just agree to let them perform the work, he could leave the existing operational until they could come back and swap it out. He swore their prices were competitive, and then asked if he could look at her a/c.


It's safe or it's not.
There is no such thing as: it is safe only if I am the one paid to come back when I get the parts together.

The matter should be brought to BBB, TSSA, and the Ontario Ministry of Consumer Affairs. If you bring the matter to Marketplace, maybe they'll do an industry investigation and put it on TV. Ok, I know it's just wishful thinking. Nobody will do anything about a loose canon until 1 million plus complaints have been received or until a lawyer, judge or politician gets ripped off, or until someone actually dies. But, your complaint still brings the loose canon one point closer to action. Our industry is becoming increasingly complex and technologically advanced. An innocent homeowner has exactly zero chance against a con artist. Having said that, some homeowners I would throw to the wolves.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

They showed up, and within 5 minutes came up to tell her that the h/e is cracked and she'd need a new furnace. Gramma sighed and said something to the effect of having to get a couple of quotes. That's when the tech became rude. 

He told her that if that's the route she wanted to take, he would red tag the furnace and lock it out immediately. But if she would just agree to let them perform the work, he could leave the existing operational until they could come back and swap it out. He swore their prices were competitive, and then asked if he could look at her a/c.





If they heat exchanger was really cracked, the furnace should have been locked out no matter what. So why did he offer to leave it operable, if they got the replacement job? Scumbag if you ask me. Or a liar.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

wundumguy said:


> It's safe or it's not.
> There is no such thing as: it is safe only if I am the one paid to come back when I get the parts together.
> 
> The matter should be brought to BBB, TSSA, and the Ontario Ministry of Consumer Affairs. If you bring the matter to Marketplace, maybe they'll do an industry investigation and put it on TV. Ok, I know it's just wishful thinking. Nobody will do anything about a loose canon until 1 million plus complaints have been received or until a lawyer, judge or politician gets ripped off, or until someone actually dies. But, your complaint still brings the loose canon one point closer to action. Our industry is becoming increasingly complex and technologically advanced. An innocent homeowner has exactly zero chance against a con artist. Having said that, some homeowners I would throw to the wolves.


Yes, SOME ho's. Not naive seniors. I bet they operate this way on a daily basis.

Thanks for all of the responses guys, I didn't have a clear understanding of what it should have cost and neither does anyone here without knowing all of the details.

Thank you again for your expertise, and I'll snap some pics next time I visit.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

First off ... the existing furnace may still have been under warrainty..

Most furnaces have a 20 year and some times life time on the heat exchanger...

I would have asked to at least see the crack or at least see how he determined that the heat exchanger was cracked..

I always give the option to change the heat exchanger to the customer first...

and then explain why it is some times better to change the furnace..

They surely did take gramps for a ride.... What was wrong with the existing AC??

More than likely there was nothing wrong with the furnace either... I run into this all the time.... first guy red tags a furnace saying it was cracked then we go out and find nothing wrong with the furnace...

They should make a show catching these guys in the act.

A furnace change out around he is about 5 K then AC about 3 k... so they are a little high but more than likely their services were not needed.


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## DIZ (Nov 17, 2010)

PlumberDave said:


> I have supplied space heaters.


Me too, good thinking! Sometimes the thought of being cold vs. huffing a bunch of CO is a tough choice for them HO's to make. Supplying space heaters makes the choice easy


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Get the facts together such as the age and problem of existing unit, if it had any warranty left, permit/inspection or quality of new unit. Check the proposal to see what language the salesman used to see if he hung himself or not. All the relevant facts. Decide what you want to accomplish (full refund, partial refund, apology, whatever you want). Then contact the owner or GM of the outfit and explain what happened in a civil manner citing your proof of their foul. Let him know exactly what it is you want in no uncertain terms. By having your facts and putting him on the spot he cannot BS you or stall for time "to look into it". Give him a time frame. 48 hours should be ample. Make it clear what you will do if he fails to act within that time frame (BBB, TSSA, OMCA, the local news, online reviews, local legal watch dog group). Strike while the iron is hot. All of the neg threats are pointless if you do not ask for a specific resolution from the company. 



U.A.til.I.die said:


> I considered that, but what will that accomplish? What would I say?


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

ckoch407 said:


> Get the facts together such as the age and problem of existing unit, if it had any warranty left, permit/inspection or quality of new unit. Check the proposal to see what language the salesman used to see if he hung himself or not. All the relevant facts. Decide what you want to accomplish (full refund, partial refund, apology, whatever you want). Then contact the owner or GM of the outfit and explain what happened in a civil manner citing your proof of their foul. Let him know exactly what it is you want in no uncertain terms. By having your facts and putting him on the spot he cannot BS you or stall for time "to look into it". Give him a time frame. 48 hours should be ample. Make it clear what you will do if he fails to act within that time frame (BBB, TSSA, OMCA, the local news, online reviews, local legal watch dog group). Strike while the iron is hot. All of the neg threats are pointless if you do not ask for a specific resolution from the company.


Very well thought out. I can make a point of getting to grandmas house by wed afternoon and I will collect whatever data I can. 

Thanks again for taking the time guys...

UA


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

This is the workmanship of a Service Experts franchise in my area.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

In addition to what ckoch407 proposed I'd also get pics of the work so it can be brutally inspected here.

Also Get to their shop ASAP and see if you can inspect the old unit before the scrap pick up...
You may want that heat exchanger as evidence.

Somehow just given the pressure involved in the sale I suspect that a $20 CO Detector may have been lying as well as a couple of Service Experts...:whistling2:

The line about locking out the unit if they didn't do the work but it being left on if they did do the work is pure BS! :furious::furious:

Hit em fast n hard! Land on em like a ton of bricks!


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## suzie (Sep 1, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> This is the workmanship of a Service Experts franchise in my area.


 
that's a nice job if you're dying easter eggs:no:


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## beavercreekhc (Mar 15, 2010)

i install Bryant equipment and i know Carrier/Bryant isn't the cheapest thing around. My quote for a furnace and a/c replacement would have been around $5500 to $6k depending on which furnace and a/c they went with. and i'm still making good money off this. 1 day - 2 guys no problem, long as no crawl space or attic.


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