# Lead Free Brass -- Easy to Crack?



## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

I went out to replace a fairly new (1 month old) Red/White ball valve today. I installed this, along with 17 other lead free ball valves at a winery 3-4 weeks ago and this one had split. I was told by one of the guys at the supply house that the new lead free brass has bismuth in it and is more brittle. The MIP was not bottomed out and I don't think it was overtightened. At least it was no tighter than I always installed the old ball valves with lead in them. Obviously it was too tight for what it could handle but was this a weak valve or a characteristic of the new Ca./Va. brass? Have you guys that have lead-free valves found the new brass to be more brittle?























Paul


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Damn....


All the f-ing problems with this brass in the past 10 years is ridiculous.

Going lead free, **** loaded with impurities, trying to cheapen because of volume...

Back in the 40's when I served two tours when I swam the english channel we could install brass fittings and they were golden; didn't break, didn't crack, didn't do anything but last.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

The lead component of the brass was to improve its machining properties...

Part of that could include the brittleness of the material or it may not have been machined properly causing a defect...


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Looks like a good valve to me I don't see no crack. :laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Looks like just a few threads left.....it was tight:whistling2:


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

Thats looks like a chinese red and white valve:yes: i've seen those at my supplier never seen a yellow handle R&W valve but i have seen green handle its made in china .. I only install the red handle TOYO Red & White valves made in italy (lead free)..


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Jomar valve?

Maybe the MPT was out of spec????

Maybe you got a bad valve???

Maybe it was put in a bind??

Maybe.......


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Plumbworker said:


> Thats looks like a chinese red and white valve:yes: i've seen those at my supplier never seen a yellow handle R&W valve but i have seen green handle its made in china .. I only install the red handle TOYO Red & White valves made in italy (lead free)..


I was under the impression that these particular valves were made in Italy, not China.



Matt said:


> Jomar valve? no
> 
> Maybe the MPT was out of spec???? maybe
> 
> ...


 
There are a few threads left but it was by no means TIGHT. It is a good 1 1/2 turns from being bottomed out in the valve, you can feel at least 2 threads inside the valve. 

I know the reason it cracked at the most basic level is that is *was* too tight but my question is this. Do these valves, and other products made with lead free brass, need to be babied when it comes to male/female connections? Or, was this a bad valve and just destined to fail due to a manufacturing flaw? Within a quarter turn, this was installed the same as I've done them for the last 15 years.








Paul


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## David Sheffield (Jun 30, 2010)

Is this a sand casting or a forged valve? Forged Italian Valves are the strongest and highest quality, but more expensive. What is the country of origin on your valves?


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## David Sheffield (Jun 30, 2010)

Is it leaking at the joint or the end connector? The loctite or glue that seals the body sections holds it together could be leaking


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

David Sheffield said:


> I have a possible solution that doesnt use heat if you are interested.


What would that be?:whistling2:


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## David Sheffield (Jun 30, 2010)

Some companies have cheapened their valves


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

David Sheffield said:


> Some companies have cheapened their valves to the point where there is less materal/mass in the valve and it is easier to overheat it with a torch. I see some blue on the valve here and is it possible that the valve got too hot? I have seen a lot of problems with solder valves recently as the mass of the valve is less, so they overheat easier when soldering. Overheating can cause the seats to melt and the loctite that seals the end connector to fail. I am not saying anything here, but I do see blue color in several places on the ball valve. It may appear to some to be overheated due to the cheap valves that are being sold in this market place. If you want I can send you some information on some valves that are push in type and dont require a torch. I am new here and I dont want to violate the rules, but I will send you info if you email me at [email protected]/


I doubt many here would be interested in a sharkbite type of valve. They are more of a DIY thing not a plumber thing.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

It's been a long time since I've cooked a valve. The mip was soldered onto a section of copper, cooled and then installed into the valve. Just like I always do it. It didn't get hot enough to melt the teflon tape, let alone crack the brass. I am *not* interested in push on valves, thank you.








Paul


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

I don't care what California says, lead makes eveything better!! :thumbsup:


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