# New house



## Michaelcookplum

Will add pics daily


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## Ron

NO comment except under my code it fails. But good work my friend.


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## Jchar5147

Michaelcookplum, 
What state/country do you live in?


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## Protech

I would have just used factory made combos instead of all of those wye/45 combinations. Looks like allot of unneeded fittings and run around.

It all looks pitched, plumb and primed pretty though.


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## Michaelcookplum

Fairfax county VA, IPC code


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## Jchar5147

Wow, it's crazy how much the IPC and UPC differ.


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## Ron

Jchar5147 said:


> Wow, it's crazy how much the IPC and UPC differ.


Yea imagine the time and material we could save if we could use the IPC


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## Michaelcookplum

I know! I worked under the UPC in southern California and i hated it. A lot more flexibility under the IPC and trust me, everything drains as good as separate venting every fixture


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## Jchar5147

Ron said:


> Yea imagine the time and material we could save if we could use the IPC


For sure, not venting every fixture saves a lot in it self. Also, I don't think they need a c/o after 135 degrees. 

Michalcookplum, it seems like you could have saved a lot of pipe by installing your wye's in different locations. But I'm sure you had a reason. I don't know jack about the ipc.


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## Protech

Michaelcookplum said:


> I know! I worked under the UPC in southern California and i hated it. A lot more flexibility under the IPC and trust me, everything drains as good as separate venting every fixture


Uh O, that could end up being a sig line. :laughing:


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## Jchar5147

Michaelcookplum said:


> I know! I worked under the UPC in southern California and i hated it. A lot more flexibility under the IPC and trust me, everything drains as good as separate venting every fixture


I can't imagine it would drain any slower. Not unless you were taking a shower, washing your hands and flushing the toilet at the same time. 

The UPC vent requirement that puzzles me the most is the foot vent on a island. I think it would work just as well without it.


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## Ron

Jchar5147 said:


> I can't imagine it would drain any slower. Not unless you were taking a shower, washing your hands and flushing the toilet at the same time.
> 
> The UPC vent requirement that puzzles me the most is the foot vent on a island. I think it would work just as well without it.


Yep, I hear yea, glad they now allows us to use a sure vent where I'm at. But only in residential applications up to three fixtures.


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## Protech

Well that's good, cuz we all know how a lack of venting slows drainage :whistling2:


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## Jchar5147

Ron said:


> Yep, I hear yea, glad they now allows us to use a sure vent where I'm at. But only in residential applications up to three fixtures.


Does that mean you can bring your kitchen drain up centered under the window instead of outside the king stud? Or do you have to be so many inches above flood before you can use the sure vent?


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## Ron

Jchar5147 said:


> Does that mean you can bring your kitchen drain up centered under the window instead of outside the king stud? Or do you have to be so many inches above flood before you can use the sure vent?


You still have to be a high as possible under the sink cabinet. Just have to stub up just inside the cabinet.


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## Jchar5147

That's cool. I still have to come up outside the window then dirty arm over strapped to the face of the studs. The cabinet guys hate me.


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## Redwood

If I didn't have such a good sig already I'd have taken it... :laughing:


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## Michaelcookplum

Starting copper


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## Airgap

Ist copper pic: Why's the water on the face of the studs? Will tub cover them?


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## Widdershins

Michaelcookplum said:


> Starting copper


 Do the copper shims under the closet flange come out later or are those permanent?

Seems to me it would rock once the shims punch through the osb.

Any reason why you didn't just hole saw out a piece of plywood and then trim it down with a jigsaw?


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## Michaelcookplum

Yes tub will cover, only 5 and 8" off plywood


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## brass plumbing

*90s on their sides*

Michigan doesn't allow 90s or tees on their sides(horizontal). you'd have alot of cutting to do. 45s only.
drain arm for lav allows 90s but that's it


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## Michaelcookplum

Widdershins said:


> Do the copper shims under the closet flange come out later or are those permanent?
> 
> Seems to me it would rock once the shims punch through the osb.
> 
> Any reason why you didn't just hole saw out a piece of plywood and then trim it down with a jigsaw?


Never had a problem with rocking later on, at the same time, you have a great idea. That's just how we have done it for years. Might suggest your idea to the boss!


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## Michaelcookplum

brass plumbing said:


> Michigan doesn't allow 90s or tees on their sides(horizontal). you'd have alot of cutting to do. 45s only.
> drain arm for lav allows 90s but that's it


That sucks. Were required to use long turn. 90s on 3" on the horizontal but 2" and less they an be reg 90s...


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## Widdershins

Michaelcookplum said:


> Never had a problem with rocking later on, at the same time, you have a great idea. That's just how we have done it for years. Might suggest your idea to the boss!


 I have one of the guys make them up in the shop in different thicknesses.

We glue them to the floor with construction adhesive and then screw the flange to the floor with 2" zinc or stainless screws.


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## Widdershins

brass plumbing said:


> Michigan doesn't allow 90s or tees on their sides(horizontal). you'd have alot of cutting to do. 45s only.
> drain arm for lav allows 90s but that's it


 We're allowed to use long sweep 90's on their side for drainage.

A long turn is basically the same radius as a regular 45 and a st. 45.


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## mccmech

Ron said:


> NO comment except under my code it fails. But good work my friend.



How about cleanouts?


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## hasbean

Hi All.
Looking at the work well done and neat. Here in Spain there no rules as long as the water runs away , no vents on main runs let alone on 2" or smaller, and no clean outs and no inspectors.
I have been into new builds looking (sad people us plumbers) at blocks of flats , villas etc
yet to see something vented


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## Ron

Michaelcookplum said:


> Never had a problem with rocking later on, at the same time, you have a great idea. That's just how we have done it for years. Might suggest your idea to the boss!


We will use these sioux chief spacers to get the flange higher then the sub flooring, slip them on the bottom side of TKO then secure to floor.


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## Ron

mccmech said:


> How about cleanouts?


Cleanouts needed at laundry and kitchens, and also when making up a foot vent, two under the sink and one at the wall, that foot vent comes up into.


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## SpecimenYarp

Codes are so much different in Canada compared to the states. 

No PVC drainage allowed(not rated for hot water)
No PVC water lines inside (don't know why'd you use handy hack PVC anyways)
No 90's for drainage(unless tight toilet flange or 3" going down wall. Ok for venting
11/2" for venting 
Vent for all sinks. 


There's a lot more but just comparing with your pics. 

Here in BC it's abs only and everyone uses pex. Copper for valves and hosebibs for more support and water heaters. The 6 bathroom houses we do just isn't practical for price for whole house copper and no one would ever pay it. 

Clean work you got though!


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## Plumberman

SpecimenYarp said:


> Codes are so much different in Canada compared to the states.
> 
> No PVC drainage allowed(not rated for hot water)
> No PVC water lines inside (don't know why'd you use handy hack PVC anyways)
> No 90's for drainage(unless tight toilet flange or 3" going down wall. Ok for venting
> 11/2" for venting
> Vent for all sinks.
> 
> There's a lot more but just comparing with your pics.
> 
> Here in BC it's abs only and everyone uses pex. Copper for valves and hosebibs for more support and water heaters. The 6 bathroom houses we do just isn't practical for price for whole house copper and no one would ever pay it.
> 
> Clean work you got though!


How hot do y'all run y'alls water in a house up there? If we are running DWV for a commercial dishwasher have to install cast iron for cool down then transition to PVC


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## skitian

SpecimenYarp said:


> Codes are so much different in Canada compared to the states.
> 
> No PVC drainage allowed(not rated for hot water)
> No PVC water lines inside (don't know why'd you use handy hack PVC anyways)
> No 90's for drainage(unless tight toilet flange or 3" going down wall. Ok for venting
> 11/2" for venting
> Vent for all sinks.
> 
> There's a lot more but just comparing with your pics.
> 
> Here in BC it's abs only and everyone uses pex. Copper for valves and hosebibs for more support and water heaters. The 6 bathroom houses we do just isn't practical for price for whole house copper and no one would ever pay it.
> 
> Clean work you got though!


Wow those are definitely some different codes, of course every place has it's own set of challenges.


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## Tommy plumber

SpecimenYarp said:


> Codes are so much different in Canada compared to the states.
> 
> No PVC drainage allowed(not rated for hot water)
> No PVC water lines inside (don't know why'd you use handy hack PVC anyways)
> No 90's for drainage(unless tight toilet flange or 3" going down wall. Ok for venting
> 11/2" for venting
> Vent for all sinks.
> 
> 
> There's a lot more but just comparing with your pics.
> 
> Here in BC it's abs only and everyone uses pex. Copper for valves and hosebibs for more support and water heaters. The 6 bathroom houses we do just isn't practical for price for whole house copper and no one would ever pay it.
> 
> Clean work you got though!


 




We too are not allowed to use PVC inside a bldg for water piping. Our code (FL anyway) only allows PVC for potable water outside a bldg.


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## Tommy plumber

Michaelcookplum said:


> Fairfax county VA, IPC code


 




Very clean and neat looking installation....:thumbsup: 

The PVC must have know it was being photographed, because it is looking it's best...:laughing:

One criticism for my northern colleague; why do so many northern plumbers install the closet flange during the 2nd rough? Down south, we stub up 4" PVC and cap it for the 2nd rough.


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## Michaelcookplum

Tommy plumber said:


> Very clean and neat looking installation....:thumbsup:
> 
> The PVC must have know it was being photographed, because it is looking it's best...:laughing:
> 
> One criticism for my northern colleague; why do so many northern plumbers install the closet flange during the 2nd rough? Down south, we stub up 4" PVC and cap it for the 2nd rough.


Do it in the rough and not worry about it later. we always know how high to set the flanges based on what the builder tells us he's putting on the floor, normally 1/2 durock and 3/8 tile. I cut copper 7/8 of an inch and screw the flange down with 3" stainless steal screws. Done.


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## Plumberman

Michaelcookplum said:


> Do it in the rough and not worry about it later. we always know how high to set the flanges based on what the builder tells us he's putting on the floor, normally 1/2 durock and 3/8 tile. I cut copper 7/8 of an inch and screw the flange down with 3" stainless steal screws. Done.


Must have some jam up concrete finishers there.

We can't even get these idiots down here to pour around floor drains or cleanouts right...


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## Michaelcookplum

Plumberman said:


> Must have some jam up concrete finishers there.
> 
> We can't even get these idiots down here to pour around floor drains or cleanouts right...


In the ground work we stub up 4". During the rough in is where we set all flanges at the correct height. Concrete guys do nice work here


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## hroark2112

http://www.plumbingzone.com/attachments/f21/11440d1313753530t-new-house-image-1609679642.jpg

Is this going to be a tub later? Just wondering about the copper on the outside of the studs. 

Nice looking work!


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## Jchar5147

I stub up 4" abs and cap it as well. The only time I set the flanges in top out is when I'm working cast iron.


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## Greenguy

SpecimenYarp said:


> Codes are so much different in Canada compared to the states.
> 
> No PVC drainage allowed(not rated for hot water)
> No PVC water lines inside (don't know why'd you use handy hack PVC anyways)
> No 90's for drainage(unless tight toilet flange or 3" going down wall. Ok for venting
> 11/2" for venting
> Vent for all sinks.
> 
> There's a lot more but just comparing with your pics.
> 
> Here in BC it's abs only and everyone uses pex. Copper for valves and hosebibs for more support and water heaters. The 6 bathroom houses we do just isn't practical for price for whole house copper and no one would ever pay it.
> 
> Clean work you got though!


Not totally correct, PVC drainage is allowed both in ground and in building Section 2.2.5.12.
Yes it is uncommon to use it but it does get used, take blaze master it's rated for potable water and can be used on a flow through system where at the end of the line it gets hooked up to a toilet. Also what about flow guard gold I'm sure that's rated for hot water, I believe it's fire rated, should be able to take the heat of hot water. 

When it comes to 90's check the picture below, it's the same in the BC code book. 

Venting can be as small as 1-1/4" but is determined by the load with atleast 1 vent being 3" through the roof. 

I'm no code expert but doing service you come across a lot of different systems that a residential installer may not see, no offense.


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## Widdershins

Tommy plumber said:


> One criticism for my northern colleague; why do so many northern plumbers install the closet flange during the 2nd rough? Down south, we stub up 4" PVC and cap it for the 2nd rough.


 I can usually nail down the finished floor height to within 1/8" during the rough-in stage.

A couple of other things to consider is that some Plumbing Inspectors won't sign off on an incomplete rough-in -- They view setting the closet flange as part of the rough-in.

In the photo I posted the room beneath the powder room is the HO's library of rare and antique books -- I set the flange because I wanted that connection to be static tested along with the rest of the DWV system so I could visually inspect the connection before the drywall was hung.


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## Tommy plumber

Widdershins said:


> I can usually nail down the finished floor height to within 1/8" during the rough-in stage.
> 
> A couple of other things to consider is that some Plumbing Inspectors won't sign off on an incomplete rough-in -- They view setting the closet flange as part of the rough-in.
> 
> In the photo I posted the room beneath the powder room is the HO's library of rare and antique books -- I set the flange because I wanted that connection to be static tested along with the rest of the DWV system so I could visually inspect the connection before the drywall was hung.


 




Thanks for the response. That reason about inspectors wanting to see the flange makes 100% sense to me. If the closet riser is stubbed up without a flange, then after W/C is set at the final, there is no way for an inspector to know if flange is of an approved type or not.


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## Plumberman

If we set flanges on the first rough here they wouldn't last when the Bean Eaters pour the slab... 

Honestly I have seen them step on the grates of floor drain strainers, break them off while concrete is flowing out of the pump truck hose, there fore flowing down the sewer line and pick it up and stick it on top of the broken fitting.... 

I cussed that dude untill I felt bad for him that day.


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## gitnerdun

A note of bad experience with setting flanges after water test at time of trim-out, At two different houses I had flanges that fit the pipe so poorly they both leaked sewer gas in to the house, talk about a ***** to find. 

These were both 4x3 flanges glued into 4" sch40, so there was no water leak when flushed just sewer gas coming out. I caulk in toilets with a opening at the rear of bowl and that's where the stink was coming from.

Both situations were in large houses with plenty of variables to consider. Never happened before or since, must have been some weird pipe or flanges.

I still set flanges at trim time but have switched to thicker glue just in case.


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## Ron

I always thought there was three phases of new construction plumbing, rough-in, top out, then finish.

Is there just two phases on the east side, rough-in, then finish?

Just asking.


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## Widdershins

Ron said:


> I always thought there was three phases of new construction plumbing, rough-in, top out, then finish.
> 
> Is there just two phases on the east side, rough-in, then finish?
> 
> Just asking.


 "Top out" refers to everything done above the slab after a 'Groundwork' in my neck of the woods.


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## Ron

Widdershins said:


> "Top out" refers to everything done above the slab after a 'Groundwork' in my neck of the woods.



Or anything done before the rough framing, we call that underfloor in my neck in the woods.


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## Widdershins

Ron said:


> Or anything done before the rough framing, we call that underfloor in my neck in the woods.


 I remember calling in for a 'Groundwork' inspection in Gulfport, Mississippi shortly after Hurricane Katrina. 

Inspector showed up completely flummoxed the next morning. Said he would have ignored the call altogether if I wasn't a Yank.


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## Ron

So here we don't set flanges at slab rough unless we have a laser level available, we set all flanges at top out rough.


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## skitian

We have groundworks, rough-in, and final. Inspectors aren't picky about seeing flanges here. Some peeps set them at rough, some at final. I set at final. I always have 4" sticking up for toilet, cut off just below top of floor and glue in a 3" flange.


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## mccmech

skitian said:


> We have groundworks, rough-in, and final. Inspectors aren't picky about seeing flanges here. Some peeps set them at rough, some at final. I set at final. I always have 4" sticking up for toilet, cut off just below top of floor and glue in a 3" flange.



The 4" stub-up is sweet, especially since our code calls for flanges to be mounted to finished floor ( not that too many inspectors bust balls for it ). Have ya ever had to re-rough the w/c on a slab /groundworks rough after the framers throw up the walls since the g.c. changes the plans,and thus making your stub-up not within distances?


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## SpecimenYarp

Greenguy said:


> Not totally correct, PVC drainage is allowed both in ground and in building Section 2.2.5.12.
> Yes it is uncommon to use it but it does get used, take blaze master it's rated for potable water and can be used on a flow through system where at the end of the line it gets hooked up to a toilet. Also what about flow guard gold I'm sure that's rated for hot water, I believe it's fire rated, should be able to take the heat of hot water.
> 
> When it comes to 90's check the picture below, it's the same in the BC code book.
> 
> Venting can be as small as 1-1/4" but is determined by the load with atleast 1 vent being 3" through the roof.
> 
> I'm no code expert but doing service you come across a lot of different systems that a residential installer may not see, no offense.


Yes, about the 90's. I said about the change of direction of flow and the arms but other than that we can't ever use 90's horizontally in the ceiling. 

And no, can't use flow guard gold inside in residential. Local inspectors don't allow PVC drainage in residential indoors either. Outdoors yes. I prefer abs anyways. 

And yeah I guess you still can use 1 1/4 venting. Never seen it here personally for new homes.


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## futz

SpecimenYarp said:


> And yeah I guess you still can use 1 1/4 venting. Never seen it here personally for new homes.


That's because 1-1/4" ABS is more than double the price of 1-1/2" ABS.


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## The real E.P.

I think there is some confusion from the Canadian side of things ... We can us cpvc for water lines no problem ..... In Ontario we can use PVC dwv only underground. 90s can be used from horizontal to vertical in direction of flow, coming out of a wall( serving a sink) or below a wc. Any vent going through a roof has to be increased to 3 inch because of hoare frost, vent can be 1 1/4 but who the hell does that


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## Greenguy

PVC does get used above ground, I know a lot of Hvac guys use it for condensate drains, XFR PVC is another used as it is fire rated. I serviced 4 towers in north vancouver less then a a year old that had all XFR junk in them. I've seen others use it in White rock because the inspector called for fire rated pipe flowing between the main house and the basement suite. 

Another common user of PVC is swimming pools - yes I know it's not potable water but they are still inspected jobs. The YMCA in surrey has 18" PVC mains as part of there wave pool. The problem really is every inspector had products that he like or allows, the next inspector in the same city has his own way of doing it and will fail something that the first inspector may have passed.


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## Tommy plumber

Ron said:


> I always thought there was three phases of new construction plumbing, rough-in, top out, then finish.
> 
> Is there just two phases on the east side, rough-in, then finish?
> 
> Just asking.


 




With slab-on-grade construction there are (3) phases: ground rough (or 1st rough), top-out (or 2nd rough) and final.

I've heard some plumbers call a 2nd rough a stack-out.


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## Ron

Tommy plumber said:


> With slab-on-grade construction there are (3) phases: ground rough (or 1st rough), top-out (or 2nd rough) and final.
> 
> I've heard some plumbers call a 2nd rough a stack-out.


Yes I thought about it after I made that post, rough is rough 1st or 2nd stages, the first two are given a said title. I hate getting caught up in a post.


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## futz

Ron said:


> I always thought there was three phases of new construction plumbing, rough-in, top out, then finish.
> 
> Is there just two phases on the east side, rough-in, then finish?





Widdershins said:


> "Top out" refers to everything done above the slab after a 'Groundwork' in my neck of the woods.





Ron said:


> Or anything done before the rough framing, we call that underfloor in my neck in the woods.





Widdershins said:


> I remember calling in for a 'Groundwork' inspection in Gulfport, Mississippi shortly after Hurricane Katrina.
> 
> Inspector showed up completely flummoxed the next morning. Said he would have ignored the call altogether if I wasn't a Yank.





skitian said:


> We have groundworks, rough-in, and final.





Tommy plumber said:


> With slab-on-grade construction there are (3) phases: ground rough (or 1st rough), top-out (or 2nd rough) and final.
> 
> I've heard some plumbers call a 2nd rough a stack-out.


Heh :laughing: Seems like everybody and every area makes up their own names. I call them underground/underslab (whatever), aboveground/above-slab and the finish. Other people here may have their own names. :laughing: But of course mine are the correct ones. :whistling2:


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## Michaelcookplum

We use the term ground work, piping under the slab before the basement floor is pored, rough-in when we plumb all three levels, and finish or final when we set fixtures. That's based on how we call in inspections. When we call the county we ask for a groundwork inspection, then call for a rough-in or close in inspection, then a final inspection


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## Jchar5147

Ground work, top out, finish


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## Widdershins

Groundwork, Rough-in, Finish.

Of course all of that is thrown out the window if you're dealing with an Inspector who want's to see all of the tub/shower & shower valves installed before signing off the entire rough-in.

I use to kvetch about this all the time (waves to Keith) until I saw a local, 'reputable' Plumber install non-pressure balanced shower and tub/shower valves after the rough-in was signed off.

Keith used to be on my shiot list for holding back approval for cover -- I eventually saw the light when I took over a job from a now defunct 'Peer' who was saving money by installing cheap, non-pressure balanced two handled valves. I didn't even know such an animal was still available until I prowled the aisles of our local 'Big Box' stores.

Good catch, Keith.


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## Jchar5147

Widdershins said:


> Groundwork, Rough-in, Finish.
> 
> Of course all of that is thrown out the window if you're dealing with an Inspector who want's to see all of the tub/shower & shower valves installed before signing off the entire rough-in.
> 
> I use to kvetch about this all the time (waves to Keith) until I saw a local, 'reputable' Plumber install non-pressure balanced shower and tub/shower valves after the rough-in was signed off.
> 
> Keith used to be on my shiot list for holding back approval for cover -- I eventually saw the light when I took over a job from a now defunct 'Peer' who was saving money by installing cheap, non-pressure balanced two handled valves. I didn't even know such an animal was still available until I prowled the aisles of our local 'Big Box' stores.
> 
> Good catch, Keith.


The two handle valves are a pain. In order to make it legal I have to install check valves, a tempering valve and isolation valves with an access panel. Not worth it.


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## Michaelcookplum

More pictures from rough


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## Tommy plumber

Looks good. You set the W/H's during the 2nd rough I see. I set the heater usually during the final.


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## Tommy plumber

Also, that shower is large, did you do that with one solid sheet? 

I don't see the pre-made dam corners on the curb, I once failed an inspection due to not having dam corners on the (2) corners at the curb. The inspector asked me to install the dam corners, so I did.


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## futz

Tommy plumber said:


> I don't see the pre-made dam corners on the curb, I once failed an inspection due to not having dam corners on the (2) corners at the curb. The inspector asked me to install the dam corners, so I did.


What is a "pre-made dam corner"? I've never heard of that. Got a pic or a link?


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## GREENPLUM

i see a nail hole in the pvc liner, r u gonna test the shower pan?


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## luv2plumb

futz said:


> What is a "pre-made dam corner"? I've never heard of that. Got a pic or a link?


http://www.oatey.com/Channel/Shared/ProductGroupDetail/84/Accessories.html

I have used these in the past


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## futz

luv2plumb said:


> http://www.oatey.com/Channel/Shared/ProductGroupDetail/84/Accessories.html
> 
> I have used these in the past


Those are nice. I gotta get my supplier to get some in stock.


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## RealLivePlumber

Stub out for the wc is not square to the wall. 

WTF happened to the cmu block? I hope that is not a pier in a basement.


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## sikxsevn

Plumberman said:


> If we set flanges on the first rough here they wouldn't last when the Bean Eaters pour the slab...
> 
> Honestly I have seen them step on the grates of floor drain strainers, break them off while concrete is flowing out of the pump truck hose, there fore flowing down the sewer line and pick it up and stick it on top of the broken fitting....
> 
> I cussed that dude untill I felt bad for him that day.


Last time something like that happened on one of my jobs, they got to buy concrete twice. The pour was stopped, shovels put in their hand, "Dig!"

After that costly mistake, it was the last time that crew did something that stupid


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## gitnerdun

That all looks nice to me. Damn Corners? Never been required here, but I would like to use if they were available.

How about heat loss on the heaters, with the hot line going vertical I would think there would be some of that heat escaping. I know there are "heat traps" in the nipples but how well do you find them to work?


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## Tommy plumber

futz said:


> What is a "pre-made dam corner"? I've never heard of that. Got a pic or a link?


 



http://www.masterwholesale.com/mwistore/display.php?RecordID=1225150366


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## Bayside500

looks nice, but go easy on the pipe dope on the gas lines LOL


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## Michaelcookplum

99% finished


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## Mississippiplum

Good job, That is one nice house. The gas lamps are cool, adds a nice touch.


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## Tommy plumber

Really beautiful home..... I love the copper gutters and the copper roof over the window.


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## Plumbus

Michael What brand is the gas lamp? We're putting in 8 copper lamps on a job and though they look nice, I think they are kind of flimsily built gas component wise.


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## gitnerdun

Looks great. I really like the basketweave tile by the tub. It looks like a rug.


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## bizzybeeplumbin

Jchar5147 said:


> Wow, it's crazy how much the IPC and UPC differ.


 
I was amazed also. I have the C36, I moved here and took the IPC Masters, P-1, I can do some crazy legal stuff out here!

I personally like using the wye and the st 1/8th. I am not a fan of the already put toghether combo. 

Looks good.


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