# Tearing out 3 year old navian tomorrow



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I will post pics of this job... tomorrow night

someone in town sold a customer a bill of goods 3 years ago
on a Navian tankless heater......the unit is installed on a well
with high rust content and the fellow has had nothing but troubles ever since it was installed...

the company that installed it does not have anyone smart enough to make repairs..or diagnose the problem..and he dont want them back in his home.

. it has broken down a couple of times and now it is venting gas out the plastic flu pipe into the yard due to some sort of ignition issue...
they called the gas company and the gas man shut it down...

I dont think it has ever been de-limed because the customer had no idea what I was talking about when I mentioned the isolation valves on the unit....


In all honestly, I asked the fellow if he should just call around to find someone who works on navian and have them come out and make repairs, but he stated that he just wanted the peice of junk torn out and thrown away....:laughing: 

I had to ask him how much he sunk into the unit and he said......dont ask.....:blink:

we are tearing it out tomorrow and installing a 75 gallon Rheem pro with an 8 year tank warranty


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Navien....the best marketing scam since War of the Worlds radio show. :laughing:

I wouldn't have one of those up my arse if I had room for the Empire State Building.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

we tore it out today but I forgot to take pics of the 
installed 75 gallon gas heater....

I went to the supply house this am and in their junk was
a fairley new Aquastar tankless laying in the dirt....


I am going to hang it up on my tankless wall next to all the 
others....... that thing has a huge hunk of copper in it...


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Sounds like installer error to me, not product


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## plumber tim (Jul 4, 2013)

I agree with Will. It is like buying a brand new car after 3 years of no maintaince when it breaks down you call it a piece of crap. Navien's work great if maintained and installed properly.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

And if you can't fix it by banging on it with your channellock pliers....


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I've got a Navien combo in my house, works great. Installed properly, set up properly and maintained properly. Works great

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Redwood said:


> And if you can't fix it by banging on it with your channellock pliers....


 
Dammit Redwood...... 

I DID hit the Navian Tankless heater a good number of times
with my Channel locks... Thats the first thing I do when I 
tangle with any water heater.....I thought about getting out my ball peen 
hammer on this one cause its got that metal cover on it......

so are you calling me un-professional or something??:laughing:



Actually the problem was staring them right in the face... 
I am pretty sure that the gas line was too small..
even though it came off a one inch steel line feeding 
the furnace and heater ..:whistling2: It traveled a distance of about 75 feet
across the basement before getting to the tankless heater. 

I am not sure about the length you can run the PVC vent...
this one went about 70 feet and vented out right next to their porch.


and it was on a well and was never de-limed once in 3 years. :whistling2:
I also am not sure about the required water pressure to make one of those things work
properly.. they had only about 50psi tops on this well does that even matter..
I am not sure ....
...

Like I stated, I told him to call someone that works on those things and have them check it out but it had been trouble since teh day it was put in and he was through with it,,,

I told him to leave a bad review on google for the company that installed it...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Circa 2012. Dang near prophetic. :laughing:


Redwood said:


> Yea... I've got a lot of hammers...
> A hammer can fix anything... :thumbup:


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## ibeplumber (Sep 20, 2011)

Another quality job! Damn this is going to get old....


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

ibeplumber said:


> View attachment 31955
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 



so are you serious or just joking??..


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

This tankless Looks good in my scrap room:laughing:


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## ibeplumber (Sep 20, 2011)

Master Mark said:


> so are you serious or just joking??..


? 
Sick of seeing these scabbed in installs.


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## PeckPlumbing (Mar 19, 2011)

There are a lot of those here now.. I just look at them and continue my other work, waiting for the future call when it fails. Homeowners are now installing them of course. "Why do I have to flush it again?" -jeeze.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

Redwood said:


> And if you can't fix it by banging on it with your channellock pliers....


...


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

you can always use something lighter if you 
want a tighter calibration...This screwdriver with a 
rubber handle works good on the more "fussey" Icon
valves I have fought


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## PoodleHeadMikey (Jun 21, 2014)

*Shame you're not closer*

I'd like to have another Navien tankless and I'm sure I could make that one purr like a happy kitten. Shame we're not closer or I could come over and haul that junk away for you. <g> 

PHM
------




Master Mark said:


> I will post pics of this job... tomorrow night
> 
> someone in town sold a customer a bill of goods 3 years ago
> on a Navian tankless heater......the unit is installed on a well
> ...


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## MattZone (Mar 28, 2014)

Why are you not correcting his water treatment issues first? What is high "rust" content? Do you mean high Iron?

You're doing the customer no favor by simply saying a tankless won't work in his application, because if his well water is not treated properly it is also going to prematurely end the life of that piece of crap Rheem you put in. 

The problem lies with the fact that no one is getting the water issue under control and the fact that the navies was probably not installed correctly to begin with.

I have never had any issues with Naviens, but I ensure they are installed correctly, are maintained properly, and the water is treated correctly.

I have 60 grain hard water, very high iron and sulfur content in my grandparents home... Have a navien combi working flawlessly....


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## MattZone (Mar 28, 2014)

Also you don't need to be an expert to service a navien... Just call them with you multimeter and tools on hand and they will get you the needed repair or replacement if it's under warranty... Which if it was only 3 years old then it was.


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

Haters gonna hate


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

MattZone said:


> Why are you not correcting his water treatment issues first? What is high "rust" content? Do you mean high Iron?
> 
> You're doing the customer no favor by simply saying a tankless won't work in his application, because if his well water is not treated properly it is also going to prematurely end the life of that piece of crap Rheem you put in.
> 
> ...


well, I am real happy for you....

This fellow called me and wanted a new water heater..

I told him after I saw the pics of it that he probably could have it repaired... cause it probably was not installed properly or ever de-limed .... *he said no thanks*

. I am sure he could have got someone who knows them in and out to work on it some more and basically throw more money at it and see if it would stick this time,,,:laughing:

again....he called me wanting a price on a new water heater because he was totally fed up with it...

I dont know how many times the original company had come out and fiddled with it but he did not want them back...and he said to **** can it....

case closed...


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

i agree. i have installed a couple for past employer and was not impressed. that being said, i have no schooling on them and am doing fine without installing or servicing them. when customers call and want one, i honestly say that i dont have one in my house and that is usually good enough for them. if they want a new one installed or serviced, then i am not their guy. i sound just like master mark and i am fine with that:thumbsup:


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## MattZone (Mar 28, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> well, I am real happy for you....
> 
> This fellow called me and wanted a new water heater..
> 
> ...


Again you said there was a lot of "rust" in the water... what does that even mean? Do you mean high ferrous Iron?

Even a storage tank system wont last as long with water issues at hand.

Sounds like you have no business working on a house on well water unless you can properly diagnose and solve the real problem at hand... the water.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*can u read?? r u a little slow??*



MattZone said:


> Again you said there was a lot of "rust" in the water... what does that even mean? Do you mean high ferrous Iron?
> 
> Even a storage tank system wont last as long with water issues at hand.
> 
> Sounds like you have no business working on a house on well water unless you can properly diagnose and solve the real problem at hand... the water.


 
It sounds like you are too dense to actually read what I wrote .....and maybe you just want to pick a fight

the house is on well water.... with a Connniceto system installed.. it has some high iron and lime content .... but the system is basically handling it......

Do you understand that a tankless unit is gonna struggle harder to stay clean if it is on well water..... it probably should have never been installed on well water in the first place.....

*and if you can read*, I believe I mentioned it had never been de-limed in 3 years either.....on that well water...

do you understand that someone else installed this tankless heater on the well system????. 

you re-posted my statement in the last post, 

Are you having trouble trying to stay up with this??
can you follow and comprehend the whole thread ok??


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

You did what the customer asked you to do, that is all that needs to be done, end of argument. 

What is being said otherwise is a completely different point and it all comes back to a job not being done right. Again these have nothing to do with what you did, but are a failure by other contractors and their installation.

1. Proper water conditioning equipment would correct any problems with the water making water condition a non-factor with the Naiven. 

2. The unit was not given proper maintenance. Customer either ignored what he was told or the installer failed to teach him. 

3. Given the previous problems it's likely the unit was not sized or installed per manufacturer instructions. 

Conclusion 

The unit failed to work properly due to a series of errors. 

If properly installed the system would have worked fine. 

Blaming the tankless because it's a tankless and you don't like the equipment is foolish given the evidence it's installer error, which we all know is the problem more than 90% of the time. 

It can be done right and there was a lot of money and opportunity left on the table, potentially. Certainly over time there will be a lot of long term gain given up for short term pay day. 

Speculation 

Conditioning equipment upgrades or add on to correct problem at unit an possible the whole house. 
1000.00

Tankless delime annually 
225.00

Unit replacement in 20 
2500.00


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Hoosier Plumber said:


> You did what the customer asked you to do, that is all that needs to be done, end of argument.
> 
> What is being said otherwise is a completely different point and it all comes back to a job not being done right. Again these have nothing to do with what you did, but are a failure by other contractors and their installation.
> 
> ...


 

Good points...I feel if the customer was informed about the expence of maintaince half of them would not buy a tankless water heater


the problem is a lot of guys see a big pay day of around 4000 bucks for one of those things and they
say and do everything they can to get that sale....and a big comission for the sale....
they could care less about informing the customer about the expence and maintaince involved with the tankless unit.. because that could kill the sale... 

On top of that they dont know how to install the thing properly in the first place...

the company that sold them a bill of goods left the customer holding the bag... they got their money and ran outthe door and this guy never even knew it needed to be delimed occasionally...

I personally think it all boils down to greed and a fast buck.....


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## MattZone (Mar 28, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> It sounds like you are too dense to actually read what I wrote .....and maybe you just want to pick a fight
> 
> the house is on well water.... with a Connniceto system installed.. it has some high iron and lime content .... but the system is basically handling it......
> 
> ...


Did the system have the proper filtration even to begin with? Was there a softener only? Was there an Iron Filtration system? How about a sanitizer system or chlorine pump to remove Iron Bacteria?

If there was the proper equipment was it maintained and was it even working properly? Could one of the filter need a re-bedding of media? 

Did you test both the raw and treated water to ensure it was being treated properly?

Just because someone is on well water does not mean you should point the finger at the Navien system to easily sell whatever you want just because they were already sour with an improper situation for that tankless... that if all factors were okay that the Navien would have been perfectly fine (even without a proper flush in 3 years). Not to say that it shouldn't have been de-scaled.

Your job is to point out the cause of a problem to a customer, offer them a permanent fix, and let them pick what they want for there house. The customer was mad at there tankless water heater because it was not working, because of a water issue that was not addressed... you took that info and sold them on a different system rather than fixing there situation... and in the process left a lot of money on the table.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

MattZone said:


> Did the system have the proper filtration even to begin with? Was there a softener only? Was there an Iron Filtration system? How about a sanitizer system or chlorine pump to remove Iron Bacteria?
> 
> If there was the proper equipment was it maintained and was it even working properly? Could one of the filter need a re-bedding of media?
> 
> ...


 

I dont seem to be reaching you 

If you can read , then you should be able to comprehend that the customer called me and a number of other plumbers in town and asked for a price on a new tank type water heater...
 can u un--der--stand this??

*he did not want that Navien repaired....*he wanted it replaced with a standard Rheem water heater.... 
so what part of this dont you understand????? 


you be tripping on something?? what drugs are you useing that you cant follow this thread??


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> Good points...I feel if the customer was informed about the expence of maintaince half of them would not buy a tankless water heater
> 
> 
> the problem is a lot of guys see a big pay day of around 4000 bucks for one of those things and they
> ...


We don't put them in for greed. It's business and we are willing to make the money for selling the customer what they want after informing them of all options. 

Recently we had to pull a tank and put a tankless in for space saving reasons. The customer is estatic and the unit is working great. 

To each his own. I love the jobs where I sell conditioning and water heater.


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## MattZone (Mar 28, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> I dont seem to be reaching you
> 
> If you can read , then you should be able to comprehend that the customer called me and a number of other plumbers in town and asked for a price on a new tank type water heater...
> can u un--der--stand this??
> ...


Regardless if he wanted the tankless or not... why did you not address the water issue?

You know that new Rheem tank is going to die prematurely as well...? You did not solve his problem at all.

Problem water is problem water, doesn't matter if it comes from a private well, or a municipality... You need to at least inform the customer how he is risking his entire plumbing system, possibly even his and his families health without addressing the water.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

MattZone said:


> Regardless if he wanted the tankless or not... why did you not address the water issue?
> 
> You know that new Rheem tank is going to die prematurely as well...? You did not solve his problem at all.
> 
> Problem water is problem water, doesn't matter if it comes from a private well, or a municipality... You need to at least inform the customer how he is risking his entire plumbing system, possibly even his and his families health without addressing the water.


many folks around here have well water , 

there is nothing wrong with their well water , 
there never was anything wrong with the water

I just stated that it just is harder on a tankless heater.....

you moron..


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## MattZone (Mar 28, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> many folks around here have well water ,
> 
> there is nothing wrong with their well water ,
> there never was anything wrong with the water
> ...


If there is nothing wrong with the water, then why is it harder on a tankless heater? Because if there was truly nothing wrong with their water then the Navien would have been fine.

Also did you lab test... or at least field test basic parameters with their water?

I am not the moron who is going to be replacing that Rheem before the warranty expires because I could not do a basic field Iron and Hardness test on the water to ensure there was infact "nothing wrong."


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

i am hearing both of you but one question for everyone to respond to.... if you have to replace a water heater either in the city or on well water, do each and every one of you test the water before changing the heater? do you only test it its a tankless? i dont think so....whats your opinion?


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## MattZone (Mar 28, 2014)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> i am hearing both of you but one question for everyone to respond to.... if you have to replace a water heater either in the city or on well water, do each and every one of you test the water before changing the heater? do you only test it its a tankless? i dont think so....whats your opinion?


I test the water in every home I go into. If it is for a flapper even... chlorine dries out and causes rubber products to fail prematurely. Boom, option for a carbon filter.

Find over 6 grains per gallon of hardness? There is an option for a water conditioner.

You inform them that treating there water problem will protect and prevent a lot of further issues and services calls in the future with the plumbing system. It will protect big appliances like clothes and dishwashers, water heaters, ect... That it is an investment that will pay for itself, as well as be cleaner water to shower with, drink, ect...


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> i am hearing both of you but one question for everyone to respond to.... if you have to replace a water heater either in the city or on well water, do each and every one of you test the water before changing the heater? do you only test it its a tankless? i dont think so....whats your opinion?


 

why??


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

MattZone said:


> I test the water in every home I go into. If it is for a flapper even... chlorine dries out and causes rubber products to fail prematurely. Boom, option for a carbon filter.
> 
> Find over 6 grains per gallon of hardness? There is an option for a water conditioner.
> 
> You inform them that treating there water problem will protect and prevent a lot of further issues and services calls in the future with the plumbing system. It will protect big appliances like clothes and dishwashers, water heaters, ect... That it is an investment that will pay for itself, as well as be cleaner water to shower with, drink, ect...


 

I say go for it..
. 

we have 20=30 grains of hardness in our water

many folks choose to have a water softener even if
they are on city water...I have one too...

Many people callus for prices on water conditioner and RO units.. 

I just dont go around giving every customer a "dog and Pony show" about their water... 

I suppose that makes me a bad salesman... but I am damn busy and dont need to go that route...

I could be trying to convince everyone how great the tankless water heaters are too.... that is a big pay day that I choose to avoid...


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## Dpeckplb (Sep 20, 2013)

We are a navien installer and service company. We have tons of them out there with no issues what so ever, and some that have issues. Probably about 85% of the failures are on well and propane fired out fits. It doesn't seem to matter if they are regular tankless or combi's. I have had naviens fail due to hard water even though it was treated. If I come acrossed one that I suspect is from a water issue I make sure to test the water.
You did what you were told to do. Just last week I had to pull out a navien with a similar situation to what you had however we were the company that installed it. It went through one flow switch a month.
The cause could be that the treatment system has never been maintained as well. Which could lead to the problems. But looking at it from your point of view you did what the customer wanted. I myself find it hard to start into a big sales pitch to change there mind.


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## Dpeckplb (Sep 20, 2013)

I also tell a customer right off that these things have much more complicated parts and are more likely to fail.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

If the water is nasty, I would never recommend
a tankless water heater to anyone 


I tell the customer to go to my web site and 
read all my information on Tankless water heaters
themselves..... it usually scares them enough to 
go witha tank type heater.... 


I feel if they still want a tankless, 
at least they were warned fair and square.
and I did my good deed for the day even if they
think I am an a-hole + kill-joy.........:thumbsup:

http://www.weilhammerplumbing.com/houseofhorrors/


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## Dpeckplb (Sep 20, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> If the water is nasty, I would never recommend
> a tankless water heater to anyone
> 
> 
> ...


I checked out your site. About exactly what I've seen. I have been to places where the customer was screaming at me that their 4000$ outfit was busted. Once they see in side of them they usually shut up. I had one yuppie guy scream at me because it was the newest technologyand it better work. I just say well I have a 60 gallon natural draft water heater at home full of hot water. I could care less if you have a cold shower.


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## drain surgeon (Jun 17, 2010)

After reading some of the comments and down right nasty bickering on this thread I wonder why I even belong to this forum at all. I thought this was a place for professionals to gain knowledge and help each other out but more often than not it is smug arse answers to questions that do none of us any good.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sorry if I got a little irritated with a few replies..


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

This is a problem we are going to see over and over again. All the equipment we are putting out now,high efficient furnaces and tankless water heaters, the homeowner is not understanding the maintenance involved. Industry is selling them on it being good for them, they are going to save money at the end of the year. I'm referring to media advertising that says replace your furnace you will save X number of dollars on your gas bill. (Water heaters will be hit hard next year with the same propoganda). What they are not understanding is how vital maintenance is. Secondary heat exchangers are going to be nightmares before long, already seeing issues arise. Tankless units are also being replaced because they are not being maintained. Customers are buying into saving money, but unlike their old equipment some of that savings has to be invested in a PM contract. I suggest everyone sharpen their pencils and promote what you sell. Instead of seeing our customers every 2 years, residential, we should be in there at least annually. PM is a good way to get the next generation to learn what's going on with equipment or keep your number at the top of a customers list.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Coolcanuck said:


> This is a problem we are going to see over and over again. All the equipment we are putting out now,high efficient furnaces and tankless water heaters, the homeowner is not understanding the maintenance involved. Industry is selling them on it being good for them, they are going to save money at the end of the year. I'm referring to media advertising that says replace your furnace you will save X number of dollars on your gas bill. (Water heaters will be hit hard next year with the same propoganda). What they are not understanding is how vital maintenance is. Secondary heat exchangers are going to be nightmares before long, already seeing issues arise. Tankless units are also being replaced because they are not being maintained. Customers are buying into saving money, but unlike their old equipment some of that savings has to be invested in a PM contract. I suggest everyone sharpen their pencils and promote what you sell. Instead of seeing our customers every 2 years, residential, we should be in there at least annually. PM is a good way to get the next generation to learn what's going on with equipment or keep your number at the top of a customers list.


maintaince is important, but once you factor in the cost for maintaince their is no savings in a tankless unit..... at least in our region...

a couple of plumbers in our town are chargeing 300 bucks to de-lime tankless heaters.....its a no-win situation....


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

Master Mark said:


> maintaince is important, but once you factor in the cost for maintaince their is no savings in a tankless unit..... at least in our region...
> 
> a couple of plumbers in our town are chargeing 300 bucks to de-lime tankless heaters.....its a no-win situation....


Absolutely. Tanks are easy, no maintenance, no parts to replace. From a HO standpoint, just run it into the ground then get a 200$ service call and get a few more years out of the tank. Crunch the numbers on a tankless install and then a maintenance contract. If you have a service call, even with great warranty on parts I'm charging to replace them, 200$ isn't going to cover that. Up here we have 40 degree source water so all our units are 240s.1


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

I like naviens though. I get a deal on service work and units at cost


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

Tankless should never be sold for gas savings. It's misleading and dishonest. 

Will the customer see a savings, possibly.


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

Hoosier Plumber said:


> Tankless should never be sold for gas savings. It's misleading and dishonest.
> 
> Will the customer see a savings, possibly.


So what is the benefit of a tankless?


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

Coolcanuck said:


> So what is the benefit of a tankless?


Endless hot water, space savings, and then possible monetary savings. 

With that being said it's not always about the money. 

Our last install of a tankless was all about space. By installing a tankless in their super tight mechanical room all future service to the furnace, water softener, well equipment, water heater and electrical box were all accessible and they had more hot water than the old 30 gallon electric tank would ever produce. 

Cost savings on gas was never discussed and the customer was estatic and prompt with payment.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*question for experts...*

Ran into an old lady yesterday that has a 
2007 Rannia tankless in her garage.. she bought the home with it already installed and it was about 4 years old.... 
She has no water softener, the unit has never been de-limed in at least 5 years and the hardness of the water in this area is about 24 with a lot of lime.... 

The only thing I can figure is she lives alone and it does not have a lot of demand on it....... Its got to go out sometime soon and I warned her about the future troubles..

I have never , ever de-limed a tankless heater...I dont plan on buying the equipment to do this task either.
I told her 200-300 bucks and she about crapped her pants:laughing: I know of one place in town that charges $300..  Is that average??

also, she still needs a water softener

I might be tearing out the whole thing and doing a 40 gal gas for her in the future.. just waiting for an error code to go off on the unit


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> Ran into an old lady yesterday that has a 2007 Rannia tankless in her garage.. she bought the home with it already installed and it was about 4 years old.... She has no water softener, the unit has never been de-limed in at least 5 years and the hardness of the water in this area is about 24 with a lot of lime.... The only thing I can figure is she lives alone and it does not have a lot of demand on it....... Its got to go out sometime soon and I warned her about the future troubles.. I have never , ever de-limed a tankless heater...I dont plan on buying the equipment to do this task either. I told her 200-300 bucks and she about crapped her pants:laughing: I know of one place in town that charges $300.. Is that average?? also, she still needs a water softener I might be tearing out the whole thing and doing a 40 gal gas for her in the future.. just waiting for an error code to go off on the unit


You don't plan on buying the equipment to de-lime it but you install a lot of HWH? Do you even know what " equipment" you would use?

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

plumbdrum said:


> You don't plan on buying the equipment to de-lime it but you install a lot of HWH? Do you even know what " equipment" you would use?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


yes, I suppose I already have the equipment or couold rig it up pretty fast......

 a couple of buckets, 3 gallons of vinegar...
a couple of washing machine hoses and probably the water heater draining pump I carry on my truck...would work.

I just dont plan on smelling up my truck like a salad...:no:


If the unit has not been de-limed in over 5 years, I wonder how long you would have to run the stuff through the unit to actually bring it back to life??

I have read posts where Bosch has recommended CLR on theirs before....that does not sound wise....

I also assume that the warranty is VOID on the Rannia unit already....

So what do you charge for this service??.
.Or would you not even touch it.....

do you even de-lime them yourself??


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> yes, I suppose I already have the equipment or couold rig it up pretty fast...... a couple of buckets, 3 gallons of vinegar... a couple of washing machine hoses and probably the water heater draining pump I carry on my truck...would work. I just dont plan on smelling up my truck like a salad...:no: If the unit has not been de-limed in over 5 years, I wonder how long you would have to run the stuff through the unit to actually bring it back to life?? I have read posts where Bosch has recommended CLR on theirs before....that does not sound wise.... I also assume that the warranty is VOID on the Rannia unit already.... So what do you charge for this service??. .Or would you not even touch it..... do you even de-lime them yourself??


I don't work anymore with tools, but on my unit I use a de- lime solution recommended by the supplier I bought my Navien from and run it for a 1/2 hour and then while solution is running I clean my air intake filter and other filters on the unit. I have a combo unit so 2 bottles of solution , about 20$ a bottle and run each exchanger a 1/2 hour. I believe I used to charge 200 for a service

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

With it being a little old lady who never uses it the yearly delime is probably overkill although Rinnai expects it. 

Mark you make valid points about the tankless and her situation but a ripping it out and installing a new 40 gallon has a few cons that should be considered. 

1. The rip out and install would be what? I say a 1000.00 minimum(upper Indiana minimum rates). If you delimed her once every two years at 200.00 that is 10 years of worth of tankless life, assuming the unit last. 

Very easy on her fixed income given she chooses the maintenance option instead of the change out. 

2. Installing a tank doesn't address the hardness issue and with it being that high how long will the new heater last 10 years? On one hand you saved her nothing, on another she is now paying for a new tank which will certainly cost more later than it does now. 

Hard on her fixed income and you have saved her nothing and have not actually addressed the real problem. 

3. Install a new filter that addresses her hard water problems. Then get that unit running properly and the life of it could likely outlast any tank you install, not sure the age of Rinnai wasn't mentioned. Assuming it lasts 20 years it would last longer than your tank. 

Hard on the fixed income, cost comparable to new tank, and the real problem is addressed once and for all which would prevent the premature failure of whatever option she goes with. 

Curious what she would choose given those options.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Hoosier Plumber said:


> With it being a little old lady who never uses it the yearly delime is probably overkill although Rinnai expects it.
> 
> Mark you make valid points about the tankless and her situation but a ripping it out and installing a new 40 gallon has a few cons that should be considered.
> 
> ...


Those all very good points.... 
I dont know which way I would go.... 

the only positive thing about the whole situation is that she in-herited this unit and did not have to shell out the original installation costs of probably 3500+ back in 2007. ......so it wont sting as badly....

all I have done at this point is tell her that sometime ...probably in the near future she was gonna start having troubles with it....and she should get it de-limed soon


if you have not de-limed a tankless heater since foreverand it limes up, I have heard it is nearly impossible to get it totally cleaned out....



of course if she wants to spend about $200-300 to do this service , I will recommend someone to her......I dont plan on fooling with it....dont want to touch it....


Now if you do the numbers, for probably 1200 a 40 gallon gas could be installed...with a new chimmney out the roof and all.... .... When it finally starts to act up...instead of de-limeing the unit yearly, she would be at a break even point in 4 under years....

also she would not have to get a water softener or have a de-scaler installed if she were to go that path..

I would just wait till it breaks down and then make
the decision when it finally happens 




whats your opinion?? Which way sounds best to you.


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> Those all very good points....
> I dont know which way I would go....
> 
> the only positive thing about the whole situation is that she in-herited this unit and did not have to shell out the original installation costs of probably 3500+ back in 2007. ......so it wont sting as badly....
> ...


Whatever she wants to do sounds best to me. I present options and opinions and let the customer decide what is the best course of action. 

She needs a softener. With that hardness there is a good chance of it effecting the tank water heater in a negative way. We see it up here regularly. Hard water and after a few years the gas heater sounds like a popcorn maker inside when it runs. 

As long as she knows, signs the invoice and pays I don't really care. :thumbup:

I think this was a night debate about what to do. Much better than getting all rowdy about opinions.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I am not gonna push anything on her.. she just
needs to get it de-lmed for now if she so chooses..

Lots of homes in this city have no water softener 
and the tank type heaters seem to last a long time.
Of course they get filled with lime and are not as efficient as they should be .... but no one seems to care
except the governmnet


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## mrjasontgreek (May 21, 2014)

customer got what they wanted, I wouldn't go upselling water treatment unless there were some other serious water quality-related issues in the home. Major staining, smell, corrosion, taste, pH issues... something along those lines that could seriously shorten the life of the equipment. Chances are if the water's that bad and they haven't done something about it by now, they probably don't care to. some people just seem to like dealing with the perils of terrible water...

Edit: I'm sorry, the part of the conversation I responded to seems to have passed...


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## mrjasontgreek (May 21, 2014)

Hoosier Plumber said:


> Whatever she wants to do sounds best to me. I present options and opinions and let the customer decide what is the best course of action.
> 
> ...
> 
> As long as she knows, signs the invoice and pays I don't really care. :thumbup:


exactly


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## david thompson (Sep 18, 2014)

It is like buying a brand new car after 3 years of no maintaince when it breaks down you call it a piece of crap. Navien's work great if maintained and installed properly.


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## plumber tim (Jul 4, 2013)

david thompson said:


> It is like buying a brand new car after 3 years of no maintaince when it breaks down you call it a piece of crap. Navien's work great if maintained and installed properly.


If you look back at the post on this topic you basically plagrised what I had wrote.


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

Oops this is sounds like a lawsuit for plagiarism.....:laughing:


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## Ncplumber84 (Dec 30, 2014)

I recently took out a 6 year old nortiz the heat exchanger poped and fried the board was cheaper to replace same issue never serviced.


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