# Wax Rings



## Ron

I never ever use wax rings with the horns, I use just plain wax without the horn, I don't trust them and it is against code to use them. How about you?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

No horns. Biggest money making scheme out there because anything other than a "perfect" scenario and one side or the other of that plastic horn buries out against the toilet or flange.


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## Protech

Horned ring=hack. A correctly installed flange and toilet do not need a horn. It can only cause problems, so why use it?


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## stillaround

When I was in Chicago 21 years ago we set a lot of toilets in putty. Does anybody still do that.


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## BarakThePlumber

I'm In Chicago NOW and pull a lot of toilets with putty!!! We do use "horned" wax rings, if you have a 4" CI Recessed collar you BETTER use one, if not you will get a blockage (or poor flushing) around 6-12 months later. the "horn" forces everything to drop straight into the Cast Iron and not catch on the lip of the flange..


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## TheMaster

BarakThePlumber said:


> I'm In Chicago NOW and pull a lot of toilets with putty!!! We do use "horned" wax rings, if you have a 4" CI Recessed collar you BETTER use one, if not you will get a blockage (or poor flushing) around 6-12 months later. the "horn" forces everything to drop straight into the Cast Iron and not catch on the lip of the flange..


 OH NO HE DITANT


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## stillaround

There were issues with multi story and horned wax rings. If they slide a bit when the toilet might move a touch.... ceiling damage.


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## TheMaster

I think puttng the wax on the bowl is stupid yet almost every printed instructions say thats how to install it. I never have put a wax on a bowl to set it. Nor will I ever use a wax with a horn in it. Thats a tilesmans waxseal.


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## Herk

I carry and occasionally use horned rings. The only time I use them is when I need something thicker than the normal Bol-wax, and I have varying thicknesses on the trailer. 

But by rule of thumb I will not use them, and if a customer tries to hand me one I hand it right back. Most of the leaking toilets I repair have the horn, and in a great many of those cases the fault can be directly traced to that horn - usually seeing that the top of the seal has no wax because it was all squeezed off and the plastic will not seal anything.

And I always set the wax on the flange, never on the china horn of the toilet. Whoever wrote those instructions was a sap. :jester:


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## SlickRick

I don't use any gasket..they are just too messey..Just dap around the outside and it will find its way to the hole in the floor.....


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## stillaround

slickrick said:


> I don't use any gasket..they are just too messey..Just dap around the outside and it will find its way to the hole in the floor.....


 You really should consider using a gasket for setting toilets...I'm just sayin..


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## SlickRick

stillaround said:


> You really should consider using a gasket for setting toilets...I'm just sayin..


HEY...That's my line :laughing:


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## leak1

HUH !!!


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## Protech

BarakThePlumber said:


> I'm In Chicago NOW and pull a lot of toilets with putty!!! We do use "horned" wax rings, if you have a 4" CI Recessed collar you BETTER use one, if not you will get a blockage (or poor flushing) around 6-12 months later. the "horn" forces everything to drop straight into the Cast Iron and not catch on the lip of the flange..


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## TheMaster

Bollinger plumber said:


> I have to use them here because alot of the older homes don't even have closet flanges on them. Just a 4 inch pipe coming out of the floor and the bolts are anchored right into the concrete floor or wood floor.


WTF You dont install a flange?:laughing:


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## Protech

No, you have to tell the HO they need a flange installed.

Beware of the way of the hack young jedi.



Bollinger plumber said:


> I have to use them here because alot of the older homes don't even have closet flanges on them. Just a 4 inch pipe coming out of the floor and the bolts are anchored right into the concrete floor or wood floor.


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## user4

stillaround said:


> When I was in Chicago 21 years ago we set a lot of toilets in putty. Does anybody still do that.


I do, I haven't used a wax ring in years.


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## Turd Burglar

Protech said:


> No, you have to tell the HO they need a flange installed.


:yes:


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## Cal

Anybody seen how the horned wax(s) seem to crush in and ALMOST turn into a square ??

I use a lot of the JUMBO straight wax rings !! Nice and thick when needed .


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## BarakThePlumber

Cal said:


> Anybody seen how the horned wax(s) seem to crush in and ALMOST turn into a square ??
> 
> I use a lot of the JUMBO straight wax rings !! Nice and thick when needed .


 
Yes, or how the top of the Wax comes off in your hand!! That is why if I do use one I put a straight #1 ring on top of it!! I also NEVER put the wax on the bowl and had a old Chicago Journeyman tell me how I was doing it wrong!! And for all of you that think I am kidding about the recessed C.I. flange I will take you some pics next time I come across one!! I worked in Oklahoma for 10+ years and NEVER used a horned ring! Believe it or not there is a purpose for them and eveything under the sun :whistling2: I'm just wondering what my Mother in Laws purpose is?? :bangin:


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## Plasticman

ever noticed when in a pinch and need a regular wax ring and have to stop at blowes that all they have is kant leak or horned seals? I take the wax of the horn in desperation.


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## TheMaster

I've found them and they have distorted into an oval. They also cause splashing. I have also pulled a few back into the toilet with my closet auger. I've dug a few out of cast iron pipe that had fallen into the toilet arm. The two KEYS to a good seal at the toielt bowl/flange is as follows..
1. The flange must be properly installed
2.The toilet bowl must not move after its installed.
If you make sure those two are done a regular waxseal is all you will ever need. I promise:icon_cheesygrin:


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## SlickRick

3 pages on wax gaskets....I never gave a wax gasket that much credit... Joni bolt is going to feel left out..... I'm just sayin'


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## kellybhutchings

lets move on to the foam gaskets.


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## SewerRatz

stillaround said:


> When I was in Chicago 21 years ago we set a lot of toilets in putty. Does anybody still do that.


 My sponsor would beat me with a 24" pipe wrench if I had a wax ring on my truck. It was always plumbers putty then and plumbers putty now.


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## para1

wax is for hacks, putty all the way:thumbsup:


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## para1

SewerRatz said:


> My sponsor would beat me with a 24" pipe wrench if I had a wax ring on my truck. It was always plumbers putty then and plumbers putty now.


 
sponsor??


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## SewerRatz

para1 said:


> sponsor??


Yes the plumber that sponsored me as an apprentice, which would make him my sponser.


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## TheMaster

I have used putty when I didn't have a wax. I also have used felt gaskets and foam rubber for commercial fixtures. never a wax with a horn in it. EVER.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

ANybody know why my post was removed, or where it went to?


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## Optimus Primer

i took a q-tip from my ear and used that once. Works good.


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## stillaround

When something got hung up on the flange caulked joint it was usually because the joint was bad, or a piece of lead hanging out, or jagged cut and the people flushed dental floss down. Paper and poo on a good joint are just fine.

You gotta fill that joint with lead so it is just about to spill over.


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## stillaround

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> ANybody know why my post was removed, or where it went to?


 House plumbers avatar got it.


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## pauliplumber

para1 said:


> wax is for hacks, putty all the way:thumbsup:


 Hmmm, I see plumbers putty almost every day that has dried up, turned brittle, and started to crack and fall apart. If a toilet shifts or rocks a little with older putty, wouldn't this cause a leak?

Wax however never dries or cracks. If a toilet moves a little with old wax, it might still be ok.

I like putty for certain applications, I have never used putty on a toilet, but if wax is for hacks, I guess 9.5 out of 10 plumbers are hacks.:blink:


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## Ron

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> ANybody know why my post was removed, or where it went to?



Right here

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/closet-flanges-5501/


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## stillaround

Im slightly guessing here,..but I learned in Chicago..lots of multi story...even though wax is a better substance for drying etc...you make a nice fat ring with putty, and even a ring for the footprint, squish it down good, shimmed right, you are taking less chances than a wax ring which doesnt build up for the squish as well with the many flange variables. Lasts a long time. You are dealing with a lot of apartments.


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## WestCoastPlumber

BarakThePlumber said:


> I'm In Chicago NOW and pull a lot of toilets with putty!!! We do use "horned" wax rings, if you have a 4" CI Recessed collar you BETTER use one, if not you will get a blockage (or poor flushing) around 6-12 months later. the "horn" forces everything to drop straight into the Cast Iron and not catch on the lip of the flange..


 

If I follow correctly, you should use a "Dutchman" on the gap.

I pull horns out with my auger all the time. I never use horns.


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## Herk

I've never even considered using putty instead of wax, though I have chiseled a lot of old, hard putty off of a flange. Tip: wax is easier to get off, but adheres better. Just one of life's little strangenesses. 

Another little trick passed on by my dear departed father was to put the wax on the flange, then use your thumbs to press the inner edge into the pipe or flange recess instead of just letting it all goosh into the middle when you set the bowl. And there have been times when I re-formed the wax to make it just a skosh higher.


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## saysflushable

I'm sorry we are talking about wax rings. What garbage. it should be a complete redesign of a toilet with a fernco type seal. Ya Ya they have worked for a 100 years!! Sure they have. I've installed hundreds of toilets with no trouble. Sure you have. Thats why I pull toilets all the time with water damage around the flange. Of coarse every plumber was incompetant. Sure they were! Its a crapx system with a capitol C. If tomorrow a new plumbing system was developed with any sort of a wax ring to seal sewage out of a home, I hope we would all refuse to install it. 

P.S I just don't like pulling and installing toilets. So I'm jaded to begin with:whistling2:


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## pauliplumber

I'm sure there's an obvious reason, but can anyone tell me why a toilet horn doesn't extend an inch or two into the flange, virtually eliminating 99% of all flange water leaks? Or did I just answer my own question?:blink:


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## UnclogNH

pauliplumber said:


> I'm sure there's an obvious reason, but can anyone tell me why a toilet horn doesn't extend an inch or two into the flange, virtually eliminating 99% of all flange water leaks? Or did I just answer my own question?:blink:


 Greater chance of ripping it out with an auger my guess.


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## Ron

The old toilet had a longer outlet on the bottom of them. todays new toilet don't, no answer other then cheaper to manufacture them.


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## SlickRick

pauliplumber said:


> I'm sure there's an obvious reason, but can anyone tell me why a toilet horn doesn't extend an inch or two into the flange, virtually eliminating 99% of all flange water leaks? Or did I just answer my own question?:blink:


Or would it just be more subject to damage during shipping?


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## saysflushable

pauliplumber said:


> I'm sure there's an obvious reason, but can anyone tell me why a toilet horn doesn't extend an inch or two into the flange, virtually eliminating 99% of all flange water leaks? Or did I just answer my own question?:blink:


 with the flange at the proper height. ie. on top of the floor not below as with a tile floor. The horn is lower than the flange. That sure does help with leakage thats for sure.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

pauliplumber said:


> I'm sure there's an obvious reason, but can anyone tell me why a toilet horn doesn't extend an inch or two into the flange, virtually eliminating 99% of all flange water leaks? Or did I just answer my own question?:blink:


 

Just like saysflushable said, 


fernco type seal made right into the base of the toilet. It will work just like anytihing else and I can codes accepting it instantly since it dumbs the trade down even further. 

Toilet with a small ported hole to an allen screw connection to tighten up to 3" protruding the floor. Screws to hold it down will be built into the base, clipped, and all you gotta have is 2" of pipe sticking out of the floor, unsecured even. 

Instant success for the millionaire who gets this approved. Start comparing longevity standards of a fernco to wax....


tell me which one would have a higher probability of damage occurring, given how easily the wax ring has failed over the years.


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## Ron

pauliplumber said:


> I'm sure there's an obvious reason, but can anyone tell me why a toilet horn doesn't extend an inch or two into the flange, virtually eliminating 99% of all flange water leaks? Or did I just answer my own question?:blink:


Are you talking about the toilet it's self or the horned wax ring?


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## ILPlumber

Check out the Ultra-Seal. Predco used to make it. They were bought. I can't remember off the top off my head who bought them.

I haven't used wax rings in years.


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## saysflushable

Ron The Plumber said:


> The old toilet had a longer outlet on the bottom of them. todays new toilet don't, no answer other then cheaper to manufacture them.


 Seems like in my apprentice days I pulled a toilet set it in the living room and it wouldn't set level then bamb it fell over. I bet that was the trouble.


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## pauliplumber

Ron The Plumber said:


> Are you talking about the toilet it's self or the horned wax ring?


 The toilet itself.


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## Ron

I thought so then see my answer.


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## 22rifle

Ron The Plumber said:


> The old toilet had a longer outlet on the bottom of them. todays new toilet don't, no answer other then cheaper to manufacture them.


Hey, speaking of that, remember when toilet tanks used to come sitting on two small blocks of wood in the bottom of the box? My dad would save them and sand them. We had tons of them to play with when we were kids. My folks still have them and they are over 30 years old.


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## saysflushable

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Just like saysflushable said,
> 
> 
> fernco type seal made right into the base of the toilet. It will work just like anytihing else and I can codes accepting it instantly since it dumbs the trade down even further.
> 
> Toilet with a small ported hole to an allen screw connection to tighten up to 3" protruding the floor. Screws to hold it down will be built into the base, clipped, and all you gotta have is 2" of pipe sticking out of the floor, unsecured even.
> 
> Instant success for the millionaire who gets this approved. Start comparing longevity standards of a fernco to wax....
> 
> 
> tell me which one would have a higher probability of damage occurring, given how easily the wax ring has failed over the years.


 I know I'm going over the line now but I wish toilets were not supported by our plumbing system. I don't like having the toilet flange securing the toilet, I think it should be a seperate carrier. completely independent of my pipes and flanges. That said I really dislike the old four bolt toilets with the 2 anchors in the floor


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## Ron

22rifle said:


> Hey, speaking of that, remember when toilet tanks used to come sitting on two small blocks of wood in the bottom of the box? My dad would save them and sand them. We had tons of them to play with when we were kids. My folks still have them and they are over 30 years old.


Sorry 22 I don't recall them.


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## 422 plumber

*wrong answer*



BarakThePlumber said:


> I'm In Chicago NOW and pull a lot of toilets with putty!!! We do use "horned" wax rings, if you have a 4" CI Recessed collar you BETTER use one, if not you will get a blockage (or poor flushing) around 6-12 months later. the "horn" forces everything to drop straight into the Cast Iron and not catch on the lip of the flange..



Wax rings aren't big enough for cast iron collars. For cast iron, you need to use the foam or putty. I wish I took pictures of three toilets I pulled as part of a chemical plant remodel. The chimp plumbers installed horned wax rings on cast iron collars and the wax merely slid down into the deep collar. I use the beige foam gaskets with the holes punched into them. The johny bolts slide thru the holes and keep the gasket in place. Nice.


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## retired rooter

what I hated were cheap houses or trailers that the plastic pipe and flange is so loose on the floor that YOU ALMOST have to use a long bolt up thru the floor @ thru the toilet and then tell the overweight HO to set her big arsh down easier after you have set the toilet several times for the RENT MAN or SLUM LORD those days are gone for me I hope???


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## dapperdan

Always used hornless rings in New York the set toilet in plaster never had a problem. Now in Colorado everone uses horns. Because the crappy plumbers here always have flanges below floor. That why I won't put a flange on until after tile.


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## Bill

I prefer no horn myself, but my boss uses them all the time and stocks mostly horned rings.


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## TheMaster

dapperdan said:


> Always used hornless rings in New York the set toilet in plaster never had a problem. Now in Colorado everone uses horns. Because the crappy plumbers here always have flanges below floor. That why I won't put a flange on until after tile.


 Whats the horn do when the flange is below the floor? If the flange is below the floor then your wax is not even going to seal horn or not. When replacing a wax seal,MAKE THE FLANGE RIGHT.:blink:


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## spudwrench

*wax, putty ,horn, no horn, gasket?*



TheMaster said:


> Whats the horn do when the flange is below the floor? If the flange is below the floor then your wax is not even going to seal horn or not. When replacing a wax seal,MAKE THE FLANGE RIGHT.:blink:


For a moment, I thought that I was on the DIY site. After 6 pages of wax rings, putty, yada yada yada, come on guys,isn't this a professional site? After 20 yrs. in service, I and you have seen it all,right? The Master is correct, make it right. If the HO or GC don't want it correct, well document it and move on. We have other issues here besides how to set a friggin w/c. Thank God I live south of I-80!


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## SlickRick

spudwrench said:


> For a moment, I thought that I was on the DIY site. After 6 pages of wax rings, putty, yada yada yada, come on guys,isn't this a professional site? After 20 yrs. in service, I and you have seen it all,right? The Master is correct, make it right. If the HO or GC don't want it correct, well document it and move on. We have other issues here besides how to set a friggin w/c. Thank God I live south of I-80!


What are they, Lets get on um. I'm ready..:laughing:


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## service guy

Why NOT to use wax rings with a horn.

This toilet would need to be plunged frequently, I thought it was just a crappy john, (piece-o-crap eljer from depot) but once I pulled it, I found the horn.










I installed a new Gerber maxwell, with a regular wax ring, and all is well.:thumbsup:


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## rocksteady

I have augered 2 toilets that I can remember where something like that had happened. I pulled the plastic horn all the way out the toilet bowl. No Horns!!





Paul


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## MACPLUMB777

Why do you need a wax seal or any seal on the closet flange 
Is it to stop water leaking out or is it to stop sewer GAS ?


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## TerryTotoSucks

MACPLUMB777 said:


> Why do you need a wax seal or any seal on the closet flange
> Is it to stop water leaking out or is it to stop sewer GAS ?


Both IMO


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

we use horned. no issues. whatever, to each his own


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## TerryTotoSucks

A toilet already has a horn. A second horn in the wax can cause restriction and splashing. A closet auger can also knock them into the pipe or pull them into the toilet.


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## jakewilcox

TerryTotoSucks said:


> A toilet already has a horn. A second horn in the wax can cause restriction and splashing. A closet auger can also knock them into the pipe or pull them into the toilet.


While I agree with you that a toilet has a horn, I use them depending on the situation. It depends on flange height. If the flange will engage with the horn, I usually won’t use a wax with a horn. If it doesn’t becuae like 3 layers of flooring are have dropped the flange, or if the flange wasn’t installed properly, (where it’s lower than it should be, the wax needs to have a horn. 

I have never heard of a toilet auger grabbing one. But I am absolutely sure that it happens. Watch, the next time I auger a toilet, I’ll waste the horn and the wax, just becuae I said that. 

Also, I usually won’t just auger a toilet; there are a bunch of reasons for that but the biggest is that I have had way way too many call backs with toilet augur jobs. Most of the time, I will auger, clear it and then pull the toilet to see what is going on. You’d be shocked how often I find stuff in the toilet after running an augur.


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## TerryTotoSucks

Read the whole thread and you’ll see that others also have pulled the horns out of the wax. 

I correct the flange if it’s not correct. Plastic horns inside the wax isn’t the answer for me. I also do not stack extension rings.

No code allows stacking pvc rings and sealing then together with silicone, yet some do it.

No way I’m pulling a toilet if I clear it and it flushes wads of paper once I’m done. That’s why I carry an auger.

I also do not camera a sewer after I cable it. Same difference.


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## Nazareth

You guys realize when this thread was started, George bush was president, right?


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## TerryTotoSucks

Nazareth said:


> You guys realize when this thread was started, George bush was president, right?


I wonder which wax he uses ?


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## skoronesa

TerryTotoSucks said:


> I wonder which wax he uses ?


Probably the ones that come with Kohler Retail Packaged toilets. Those things wreak of crude oil!


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## skoronesa

I use a standard wax ring unless there is something funky about the flange but not so bad as to make me replace the whole flange.

For instance, old ABS cracks easily, if it appears to be more than 30yrs old I will use a horn. Or if it's an all plastic flange, sometimes the toilet getting knocked will crack the flange, so I'll use a horned wax. If it's an inside solder or caulk flange I will use a horned wax so the joint stays dry to limit corrosion.

I've run into a handful of toilets with an integral horn that will interfere with a horned wax seal. Some toilet flanges such as offsets or internal compression rep[air flanges will also not accept a horned wax.

And yes, I too have occasionally pulled the horn out with my auger, never had it cause a leak though and I don't think it normally would.


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## TerryTotoSucks

If I thought about using anything other than a standard or extra thick reinforced wax seal that would prompt me to correct the flange.

The horns can cause problems. Look at how it’s all put together. It can slip and slide and cause splashing when water hits the horn as the toilet flushes.

I don’t want anything between the outlet of the toilet and the big empty pipe below it……then I want the bottom of the toilet to seal with wax against the flange. There’s no need for an extra piece of plastic to accomplish this.

I have found the horns deformed and obstructing the pipe or toilet outlet.

It’s a hardware store gimmick item.

This is my opinion and I’m not judging others.


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## skoronesa

I think I'll just go back to setting toilets with putty.


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## TerryTotoSucks

skoronesa said:


> I think I'll just go back to setting toilets with putty.


I second that. Terry approved 👍


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## Blue2

What about people setting toilets in plaster?


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## jakewilcox

TerryTotoSucks said:


> I second that. Terry approved 👍



I pulled one up (with a good chunk of the floor) that some hack-a$$ put down with silicone.


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## TerryTotoSucks

jakewilcox said:


> I pulled one up (with a good chunk of the floor) that some hack-a$$ put down with silicone.


When I set a commercial bowl I turn it upside down and run a thick bead of silicone around the entire footprint. 🤭

I sorry 🫶


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## TerryTotoSucks

Blue2 said:


> What about people setting toilets in plaster?


I’ve never found that but I’ve had to chisel putty off the flange before. I’ve also had putty stick so well that when I pulled the toilet, the toilet broke and left the horn stuck to the flange with putty in between. 

The plumbing game is cray cray


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## MACPLUMB777

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> we use horned. no issues. whatever, to each his own


I Have used wax horns with a second wax ring many times and have had no problems


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## TerryTotoSucks

I have pulled a lot of toilets that were leaking and the floor rotten and the wax had a horn.

I don’t understand what the extra plastic horn does when the toilet outlet is 2”-2.5” and the pipe is minimum 3”.

Even if the flange is level with the floor and you put 1” of wax on top of the flange, the horn of the toilet will still be sitting well below the top of the wax.

If the horn of the toilet doesn’t sit tight against the horn of the wax and there is space there, when the toilet flushes there will be splashing. Water doesn’t drop straight out of the bottom, it swirling from the toilet outlet.

I’d rather just have the toilet horn sitting over the top of the 3”-4” pipe with nothing between to interfere.

The wax does the sealing, not an extra horn. And with the toilet horn sitting over a larger opening there’s no need for anything else.

It the flange isn’t proper, I feel like that’s why I’m there, to correct mistakes made by others.

I routinely find toilets leaking around the wax and they do have a horn. Or I find a toilet that’s constantly clogging and I pull it up and the horn is deformed or slipped into the flush path.

I have never had a problem sealing a toilet and the answer was to install a horned wax. Never…….


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## skoronesa

Horned waxes were invented to keep the flange/pipe joint dry so it doesn't corrode as quickly. This is important with inside caulk and inside solder flanges. 

If all you're installing is plastic, and you make sure to seal the ends of coex pipe then yes, a horned wax is rarely better.


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## TerryTotoSucks

skoronesa said:


> Horned waxes were invented to keep the flange/pipe joint dry so it doesn't corrode as quickly. This is important with inside caulk and inside solder flanges.
> 
> If all you're installing is plastic, and you make sure to seal the ends of coex pipe then yes, a horned wax is rarely better.


wax seals that joint. in cast iron the oakum seals joint also.

Foamcore pvc wont leak unless its under pressure on the cut end. solid core wont leak even under pressure test.

Solder seals the joint on others. 

I assure you its all designed to get wet. 


im not buying that. have any reference material to collaborate the suggestion ?


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## skoronesa

TerryTotoSucks said:


> wax seals that joint. in cast iron the oakum seals joint also.
> 
> Foamcore pvc wont leak unless its under pressure on the cut end. solid core wont leak even under pressure test.
> 
> Solder seals the joint on others.
> 
> I assure you its all designed to get wet.
> 
> 
> im not buying that. have any reference material to collaborate the suggestion ?


Yes, solder and lead/oakum seal on their own and are fine getting wet. That's not the point. It's not as corrosion proof or smooth as the rest of the pipe and can hold a piece of schit or stay wet with toilet bowl cleaner. It will corrode less if you use a horned wax.

I don't know how much copper or leaded cast iron you see but I see it all the time. I am just telling you my experience and why we use horned waxes when we do. Our way has worked for around a century, you do what you want.


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## skoronesa

TerryTotoSucks said:


> .........im not buying that. have any reference material to collaborate the suggestion ?


There's a lot of things we do in this trade that aren't written down anywhere, at least not anymore.


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## skoronesa

There weren't always toilet flanges either. Used to be that you just stubbed up a pipe and cut it flush with the floor. The toilet was screwed directly into the wood/cement. I have had to re-set toilets in this arrangement. Horned wax gaskets have been around a long time and I'm not the only plumber who thinks they are worth using occasionally.

In 1945 William Harvey standardised and popularised the wax toilet seal. In 1956 Paul Thies was granted a patent for an improvement on the wax seal. He called this a "Bowl Sleeve Gasket". It is a wax ring with a polyethylene sleeve, the "modern" horned wax gasket.
_
*"....William Harvey is the exclusive licensee for the United States of the Thies patent ...."*_
*
"Harvey also had experience as a journeyman and master plumber, and was in the plumbing contracting business in Omaha, Nebraska prior to 1945, at which time he pioneered in the development and sale of wax ring sealing gaskets for toilet bowls."*






Harvey v. Levine, 204 F. Supp. 947 | Casetext Search + Citator


Read Harvey v. Levine, 204 F. Supp. 947, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database



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*"With the parts arranged and assembled in this manner a water and gas tight seal is provided and with the ring positioned upon the flange of the lead nipple or ferrule and the toilet bowl set upon the ring the ring is in sealing engagement with both the flange and lower surface of the bowl whereby either water or gas will not leak through the joint, and with the skirt extended downwardly into the ferrule it will provide a guide carrying the fluids downwardly beyond the connection between the toilet bowl and fitting of the soil pipe below. The upper end of the ferrule should be positioned so that when the toilet bowl is adjusted to the permanent position the gasket will be compressed with both surfaces in positive contact with the adjoining parts.

By this means a sealed joint is provided that will remain sealed indefinitely."*



https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/5e/df/25/9b125545cd6fa9/US2750216.pdf


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## TerryTotoSucks

Yeah, I’m not buying that horned wax rings are to prevent the wear of the joint between the flange and the pipe.

Modern Horned wax showed up on Bob villas crap show and hardware store shelves as a quick fix for a low flange. Plumbers set modern toilets with putty, then wax came along. Then the horned wax showed up on hardware stores. 

But you guys are welcome to believe that horn it’s to keep that joint dry if you want. I’ll continue to believe it’s an attempt to correct a low flange or a misguided attempt to seal a toilet to the flange.

They cause problems. I’ve seen the problems first hand.


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## TerryTotoSucks

skoronesa said:


> There weren't always toilet flanges either. Used to be that you just stubbed up a pipe and cut it flush with the floor. The toilet was screwed directly into the wood/cement. I have had to re-set toilets in this arrangement. Horned wax gaskets have been around a long time and I'm not the only plumber who thinks they are worth using occasionally.
> 
> In 1945 William Harvey standardised and popularised the wax toilet seal. In 1956 Paul Thies was granted a patent for an improvement on the wax seal. He called this a "Bowl Sleeve Gasket". It is a wax ring with a polyethylene sleeve, the "modern" horned wax gasket.
> 
> _*"....William Harvey is the exclusive licensee for the United States of the Thies patent ...."*_
> 
> *"Harvey also had experience as a journeyman and master plumber, and was in the plumbing contracting business in Omaha, Nebraska prior to 1945, at which time he pioneered in the development and sale of wax ring sealing gaskets for toilet bowls."*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harvey v. Levine, 204 F. Supp. 947 | Casetext Search + Citator
> 
> 
> Read Harvey v. Levine, 204 F. Supp. 947, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database
> 
> 
> 
> casetext.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"With the parts arranged and assembled in this manner a water and gas tight seal is provided and with the ring positioned upon the flange of the lead nipple or ferrule and the toilet bowl set upon the ring the ring is in sealing engagement with both the flange and lower surface of the bowl whereby either water or gas will not leak through the joint, and with the skirt extended downwardly into the ferrule it will provide a guide carrying the fluids downwardly beyond the connection between the toilet bowl and fitting of the soil pipe below. The upper end of the ferrule should be positioned so that when the toilet bowl is adjusted to the permanent position the gasket will be compressed with both surfaces in positive contact with the adjoining parts.
> 
> By this means a sealed joint is provided that will remain sealed indefinitely."*
> 
> 
> 
> https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/5e/df/25/9b125545cd6fa9/US2750216.pdf


This is much different than the wax seals with horns sold today.

And I will say that putty was and is a better method for setting bowls. It’s lasts forever.
I pulled one set in 1952 a couple weeks ago to replace the toilet. Still packed full of putty on a cast iron flange that looked new when I chiseled the putty off it.


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## skoronesa

TerryTotoSucks said:


> This is much different than the wax seals with horns sold today.
> 
> And I will say that putty was and is a better method for setting bowls. It’s lasts forever.
> I pulled one set in 1952 a couple weeks ago to replace the toilet. Still packed full of putty on a cast iron flange that looked new when I chiseled the putty off it.


Did you even look at the picture? It's near identical! They even started right off the bat using polyethylene plastic for the horn as they do today.

You asked me for reference material, I didn't think it existed but then I thought about the patent. Lo and behold it's all laid out to bare in the patent and a lawsuit filing!

Also, not all putty is created equal. I've pulled toilets set in putty that was good and some where the putty was almost gone and what was left was dust.


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## skoronesa

Me thinks Richard is full of Bull.


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## TerryTotoSucks

skoronesa said:


> Did you even look at the picture? It's near identical! They even started right off the bat using polyethylene plastic for the horn as they do today.
> 
> You asked me for reference material, I didn't think it existed but then I thought about the patent. Lo and behold it's all laid out to bare in the patent and a lawsuit filing!
> 
> Also, not all putty is created equal. I've pulled toilets set in putty that was good and some where the putty was almost gone and what was left was dust.


I've never found one in the wild. My 83 yr old father never has seen one in person or sold at a supply house. He was in his prime in the early 60'. 

And just because theres a patent doesnt mean it works. 

Infact, Ive told you why they dont work. They slip out of position and can obstruct the outlet of the toilet. They can also get knocked out of the wax by a bowl auger.


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## skoronesa

Well since you and your father have never seen one they must not exist.


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## TerryTotoSucks

skoronesa said:


> Well since you and your father have never seen one they must not exist.


They may exist but theyre not needed. And they can cause problems thats why everyone doesnt use them.

I routinely throw them away. Most of the time the homeowner had tile installed and the tileman set the toilet. I dont even think they sell a horned wax at our regular supply house. 

Check with southern Pipe @ROCKSTARPLUMBER


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## Lickitlikeafritter

Our supply house provides with horn unless you specify. Whether it’s for them to make an extra cent or it’s because they’re the most popular sellers, I don’t know. We just know to ask for jumbo wax no horn to avoid any confusion.


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## TerryTotoSucks

The box also tells you to put the wax on the toilet. 

I've never met a plumber that puts his wax on the bowl. 

Im sure hes out there, ready to argue that the box says to do it. 🤭


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## skoronesa

TerryTotoSucks said:


> The box also tells you to put the wax on the toilet.
> 
> I've never met a plumber that puts his wax on the bowl.
> 
> Im sure hes out there, ready to argue that the box says to do it. 🤭


That's just to mess with the diy.


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## TerryTotoSucks

Good video here. I don’t approve of his product but I approve of his explanation of how a toilet flange should be set and why.


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## sparky

TerryTotoSucks said:


> wax seals that joint. in cast iron the oakum seals joint also.
> 
> Foamcore pvc wont leak unless its under pressure on the cut end. solid core wont leak even under pressure test.
> 
> Solder seals the joint on others.
> 
> I assure you its all designed to get wet.
> 
> 
> im not buying that. have any reference material to collaborate the suggestion ?


Horned wax rings should be outlawed,I have no use for them


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## Nazareth

my policy has always been

flush with the floor or a little below? - horned

above the floor - standard wax

never had a problem


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