# Standard procedure for troubleshooting tankless



## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

Hi fellas, I was curious what your procedures were for troubleshooting non functioning tankless heaters. We went out to a no hot water call and the 9 year old outdoor Rinnai had a leaking heat exchanger, and water dripping out of the fan cage. Remote controller was functioning, no codes, and no demand indicator light when running water.

I am still learning, and haven't had any formal training in them, so beyond pulling the filter and impeller to check for free movement, I didn't have any other ideas on what else to check, or how to check it.

We called tech support, and they had us check for source voltage (red wire) to the flow sensor, and we had 12v. So he is sending a flow sensor, heat exchanger and combustion fan, all under warranty. But he also was adamant that those parts might not fix the unit.

I have seen this before, you start throwing the parts bin at it and after all the parts you have to be the A-hole that walks to the front door and says that didnt fix it, after they paid the labor and diagnostic fees on the first one and have been out of hot water while the first round of parts comes in, then more time without HW while the second round comes in. I hate being in that position.

The unit would go through it's robot noises when powered up, but just wouldn't fire when you ran water. I would love to be able to prove out the flow sensor by sending a pulse to the computer and if the unit fired, I could without a doubt order the sensor. Or prove the sensor is good with an oscilloscope. I just hate to throw the parts bin at it blindly..........

Thanks for any help you can offer.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Sometimes it's more effective and professional just to put a new one. If you can't find the problem within a short time you'll look like a fool when all the new parts are installed and going there several times then decide to put a new one.

They will also blame you you are stealing from them with all this run around.


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

Tango said:


> Sometimes it's more effective and professional just to put a new one. If you can't find the problem within a short time you'll look like a fool when all the new parts are installed and going there several times then decide to put a new one.
> 
> They will also blame you you are stealing from them with all this run around.


Absolutely, we were adamant that replacing was the best thing to do based on what we have seen with these things. The HO could not be swayed though. 

Now, like you said, there is a very good chance that the thing wont work even after the new parts, and the we are left holding the bag. I imagine we might roll the diagnostic into the replacement cost if it comes to that, but we will have lost those hours when we could have been doing other paying work.


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

If I could do a more thorough diagnosis, I could be more sure about what part to put in. I'm not above buying a handheld O scope and/or making a circuit board that would pulse the computer and simulate a working flow sensor. I was just curious if others do similar things.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

About $350 per hour (every hour) will make that homeowner less adamant.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

throw that piece of crap in the garbage and install a new one, its done...tell the homeowner an endless price to try and fix a disposable unit and give them a price for a new one, I personally like the takagi units, I installed a bunch and never had any problems, the oldest install is going on 15 years at my sisters house and it still works fine with no maintenance..either way its just a waste of money to try and fix it, the warranty on the heat exchangers are only 10 years , I had a bunch of people call me, that had the naviens installed after hurricane sandy and about 3 to 4 years later they started having problems, some of the heat exchangers were leaking and theres miles of wire and computer chips galore in them, I told the people to call the original installer, and they said he went out of business, he must have made a killing installing these things and beat feet before the problems start, I told the people I wasnt interested in fixing a piece of junk, and get stuck with it when it doesnt work right, I explained the installer made his big money and took of knowing what was gona happen...


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

dhal22 said:


> About $350 per hour (every hour) will make that homeowner less adamant.


Now keep in mind, I see the logic in what you are saying, and at my experience level that is the reality, but I would like to be at a skill level that allows me to effectively troubleshoot these things. 

My back round before plumbing set me up so that I have a pretty good understanding of what is going on inside the unit, hall effect sensors, reed switches, limit switches, etc, and there are undoubtedly ways to jumper/trick the unit into running to prove or disprove if a sensor/switch is bad.

I guess I am just the type that prefers to repair rather than replace. Provided of course the cost benefit and reliability is there, at my current skill level, the benefit is probably not there on more than 50% of the tankless calls. Which, to me, is not nearly good enough, and not only am I loosing out on money, the customer ends up paying to replace due to my lack knowledge, that doesn't make me feel great.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

There is no money in servicing appliances. Who gives a sh1t about their problem. Profit 1st and foremost. I hope a home owner is reading this. 

Hi homeowners. :glasses:


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> throw that piece of crap in the garbage and install a new one, its done...tell the homeowner an endless price to try and fix a disposable unit and give them a price for a new one, I personally like the takagi units, I installed a bunch and never had any problems, the oldest install is going on 15 years at my sisters house and it still works fine with no maintenance..either way its just a waste of money to try and fix it, the warranty on the heat exchangers are only 10 years , I had a bunch of people call me, that had the naviens installed after hurricane sandy and about 3 to 4 years later they started having problems, some of the heat exchangers were leaking and theres miles of wire and computer chips galore in them, I told the people to call the original installer, and they said he went out of business, he must have made a killing installing these things and beat feet before the problems start, I told the people I wasnt interested in fixing a piece of junk, and get stuck with it when it doesnt work right, I explained the installer made his big money and took of knowing what was gona happen...


I also have my doubts about the benefits of a tankless, I could see if you had a family of 5 daughters or something and a tank heater just couldn't keep up, but for the standard residence, they just don't make much sense to me.


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

dhal22 said:


> There is no money in servicing appliances. Who gives a sh1t about their problem. Profit 1st and foremost. I hope a home owner is reading this.
> 
> Hi homeowners. :glasses:


Dang, you guys are brutal.............


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

dhal22 said:


> There is no money in servicing appliances. Who gives a sh1t about their problem. Profit 1st and foremost. I hope a home owner is reading this.
> 
> Hi homeowners. :glasses:



Yes all 700 of them on a daily basis!

Today I got 2 shocked people when I told them it was a 1hr charge to go see their problem. One woman had 3 sump pumps in to 2 basins and weren't enough and flooded by the rain. She didn't want to pay. Good luck because at that stage you need an engineer plan for that amount of water. (she lives in bedrock near a quarry!)


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

ECH said:


> I also have my doubts about the benefits of a tankless, I could see if you had a family of 5 daughters or something and a tank heater just couldn't keep up, but for the standard residence, they just don't make much sense to me.



it comes down to this..people can get to work in a chevy economy car or a rolls royce luxury car..if they want to pay they can play, thats just the way it is with the tankless heaters its considered a high end option, they dont last forever even though they cost a whole lot more than a standard tank heater..and it doesnt pay to even try and fix them, unless you have a computer to plug into it if thats even possible there is no way to know if the computer, sensors or any other crap inside is even working, so you are gona just start changing hundreds or thousands in parts to find out it still dont work..for fun if you want to mes with an old one you take out of a house to see if you can figure out whats wrong is fine if its more for fun and not for profit..hey we all need hobbies..lol


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> Yes all 700 of them on a daily basis!
> 
> Today I got 2 shocked people when I told them it was a 1hr charge to go see their problem. One woman had 3 sump pumps in to 2 basins and weren't enough and flooded by the rain. She didn't want to pay. Good luck because at that stage you need an engineer plan for that amount of water. (she lives in bedrock near a quarry!)



how far away are your customers? average driving time? depending on the estimate, if I have to take any tools out of the truck or open ceiling or wall to see the issue I charge a service call and let the people know before I go look..if im giving an estimate for a big dormer or boiler job I dont charge , its not like a trouble shooting call , example..no heat or hot water or water leaking from a ceiling..


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> how far away are your customers? average driving time? depending on the estimate, if I have to take any tools out of the truck or open ceiling or wall to see the issue I charge a service call and let the people know before I go look..if im giving an estimate for a big dormer or boiler job I dont charge , its not like a trouble shooting call , example..no heat or hot water or water leaking from a ceiling..


I would say 90% are 30 minutes drive time away. The close ones 15 minutes drive. The city takes up a laaarge area. So giving estimates takes at least 2.5 hours of my time plus time at home to come up with a price and all they do is go for the cheaper one or the hack if they find one.

I removed my free ad in the other province and reduced over 90% of accents wanting free stuff. It also had an effect where I will lose maybe 20 jobs from regular people.

Here take a look at post #11

https://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/what-i-learned-after-9-months-one-man-shop-plumber-78914/index2/


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

quality is always better than quantity, some great customers willing to pay is alot better than a bunch of cheap tight wads...


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

ECH said:


> Dang, you guys are brutal.............


You want to compare my avg bank account balance now to back in the day when I tried to repair everything?


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

ECH said:


> I also have my doubts about the benefits of a tankless, I could see if you had a family of 5 daughters or something and a tank heater just couldn't keep up, but for the standard residence, they just don't make much sense to me.


I have 1 and only 2 kids. Wouldn't be without it.


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I had a bunch of people call me, that had the naviens installed after hurricane sandy and about 3 to 4 years later they started having problems, some of the heat exchangers were leaking and theres miles of wire and computer chips galore in them, I told the people to call the original installer, and they said he went out of business, he must have made a killing installing these things and beat feet before the problems start, I told the people I wasnt interested in fixing a piece of junk, and get stuck with it when it doesnt work right, I explained the installer made his big money and took of knowing what was gona happen...


I can't say how the Navien used to be but up around here the Navien is what we consider the quality unit. Never heard about Takagi but we don't do a lot with tankless here. Around here tank style is still king.

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

The Dane said:


> I can't say how the Navien used to be but up around here the Navien is what we consider the quality unit. Never heard about Takagi but we don't do a lot with tankless here. Around here tank style is still king.
> 
> Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk



ever since the hurricane and everyone flooded, people are just hooked on the wall tankless heaters for both heat and domestic hot water..


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

I would not work on wall tankless either. Unless I took the factory course and had the test equipment. Basically an authorized factory rep.

That can at least leave you an out if something else fails. With these there is an increasing chance of failure and diminishing return based on the age of the unit, quality of water. To many variables.

Several years ago the last company I worked with, we were AO Smith reps in our area and got called out for all warranty work within our radius. Felt a lot more in charge and seemed like a lot less possibility of a loss.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

All new houses here but can't say 100% are installing those and fed with natural gas. I won't be allowed to work on them when they start to fail because of the gas licence. Then again all new houses come with rented units so it will be only a few companies that are going to deal with them.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> All new houses here but can't say 100% are installing those and fed with natural gas. I won't be allowed to work on them when they start to fail because of the gas licence. Then again all new houses come with rented units so it will be only a few companies that are going to deal with them.


so without a gas license you cant touch anything that has gas attached to it even if your only dealing with the waterside of it, like changing an expansion tank on a gas fired boiler?


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> so without a gas license you cant touch anything that has gas attached to it even if your only dealing with the waterside of it, like changing an expansion tank on a gas fired boiler?


I'd have to check to make certain what I can or cannot do, I haven't run into this situation yet because if I get called for a gas water heater I decline it.

What I know to change a gas water heater the company needs both a plumbing licence AND a gas licence.

To work on a gas furnace you need 2 licences : a gas licence and Pulsed air heating systems and heating.

If you work on a gas fired boiler you need 3 licences : plumbing, gas, Pulsed air heating systems and heating. if you remove the air duct you need a tin banger licence!!

If you work on an oiled fired boiler you need 3 licences : plumbing, oil burners, Pulsed air heating systems and heating. if you remove the air duct you need a tin banger licence!!



Back in the day these guys only had to pay and they would get any licence they wanted and applied for. No need for knowledge just a fee. Nowadays you have to study like mad and pass an exam for each. That's why many old companies can do everything but now my generation we are funneled to specialize in one trade only and thus it encourage black market work as it gets too complicated to obtain all the licences.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

dam, you telling me..thats way too many licenses to have to get..


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> dam, you telling me..thats way too many licenses to have to get..


The part I hate about this is that I have all those as journeyman certificates as I studied, went to school for each and passed the exams but I would need to study all these codes again and pass those exams. I know the plumbing masters was way harder.

On top of that I would need a huge truck.


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

dhal22 said:


> You want to compare my avg bank account balance now to back in the day when I tried to repair everything?


No not at all, I have no doubt your bank account is higher now.


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

dhal22 said:


> I have 1 and only 2 kids.  Wouldn't be without it.


Care to elaborate as to why you wouldnt be without it? If I am to try to sell these things I need a logical reason to present.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

ECH said:


> Care to elaborate as to why you wouldnt be without it? If I am to try to sell these things I need a logical reason to present.



unlimited hot water...fill a big tub, shower for 5 hours and it does save gas compared to a tanked water heater..but thats at a premium price...


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> unlimited hot water...fill a big tub, shower for 5 hours and it does save gas compared to a tanked water heater..but thats at a premium price...


Yes on all of the above.

Family in from out of town? That's where a tankless really shines. I've had 3 showers running simultaneously in the dead of winter. You cannot have 6-8 people shower before church or something with a 40 or 50 gallon water heater.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ECH said:


> Hi fellas, I was curious what your procedures were for troubleshooting non functioning tankless heaters. We went out to a no hot water call and the 9 year old outdoor Rinnai had a leaking heat exchanger, and water dripping out of the fan cage. Remote controller was functioning, no codes, and no demand indicator light when running water.
> 
> I am still learning, and haven't had any formal training in them, so beyond pulling the filter and impeller to check for free movement, I didn't have any other ideas on what else to check, or how to check it.
> 
> ...





It sounds to me like you hit the nail on the head " Rinnai had a leaking heat exchanger". It won't fire if water is leaking through the wall of the heat exchanger into the combustion chamber.


Did you change the heat exchanger yet?


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> It sounds to me like you hit the nail on the head " Rinnai had a leaking heat exchanger". It won't fire if water is leaking through the wall of the heat exchanger into the combustion chamber.
> 
> 
> Did you change the heat exchanger yet?


When you ran the water, there were no ignition noises, and no "on demand" light, so the unit was not even trying to fire, it didn't recognize that it should, that's why we went down the flow sensor road.

And to answer your question, the parts are in but we have not had a chance to get back to the HO house to attempt to repair.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

dhal22 said:


> About $350 per hour (every hour) will make that homeowner less adamant.



Heck charge 1000.00 per hour,they ain’t goin to pay you anyways unless he gets it running,and probably won’t pay if he does get it running,put new in,or better yet go back to tank type,much better than these junk heaters


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

sparky said:


> Heck charge 1000.00 per hour,they ain’t goin to pay you anyways unless he gets it running,and probably won’t pay if he does get it running,put new in,or better yet go back to tank type,much better than these junk heaters



I have put in many takagi brand tankless over the last 17 years and have not had 1 call back, and the oldest one is in my sisters house and know its never been serviced and its still going strong, yes there are plenty of junk ones out there that arent worth scrap value, but unlimited hot water for a looong shower and it does save on monthly gas, so over time it will help defray the larger cost of install for the tankless over the tank ones...


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

It seems to me that the initial cost, going from tank to tankless, cannot be recouped unless the tankless lasts about 15 years, especially if gas line work is needed to convert to 2lb system, etc. Now with maintenance, thats possible, but with our water quality, and customers not flushing regularly, we see about 10yrs on average.

On the replacement cost when the second one is installed, then the lower operating costs start to be a real savings because the replacement cost is closer to what they would pay to replace a tank.

Our average tankless install where we are taking off a tank, capping, removing, etc. Runs between 5000 and 6000 if gas work is needed, maybe add a recirc line, etc.

You can't recoup that much a year in 10yrs in utilities savings unless you are that special circumstance (5 daughters in the home, etc).

Replacement with minimal gas work and minimal repiping is needed, usually under 5000.

They are simply not cost effective in my eye. But some people like luxury, and that's fine.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

ECH said:


> It seems to me that the initial cost, going from tank to tankless, cannot be recouped unless the tankless lasts about 15 years, especially if gas line work is needed to convert to 2lb system, etc. Now with maintenance, thats possible, but with our water quality, and customers not flushing regularly, we see about 10yrs on average.
> 
> On the replacement cost when the second one is installed, then the lower operating costs start to be a real savings because the replacement cost is closer to what they would pay to replace a tank.
> 
> ...



you hit the nail on the head.." LUXURY"...and people will pay...its the same with going to work in a chevy or a bentley..both will get you there, but which one gives you the better ride and bells n whistles??


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Luxury yes, and tremendous performance. Noting like a house full of guests and unlimited hot water. Plus we (I) make good money installing them.


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## davidplumber (Feb 21, 2019)

:vs_whistle:Originally Posted by *dhal22*  
There is no money in servicing appliances. Who gives a sh1t :devil3:about their problem. Profit 1st and foremost. I hope a home owner is reading this. 

:vs_laugh:Hi homeowners.!!!:vs_laugh:


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

davidplumber said:


> :vs_whistle:Originally Posted by *dhal22*
> There is no money in servicing appliances. Who gives a sh1t :devil3:about their problem. Profit 1st and foremost. I hope a home owner is reading this.
> 
> :vs_laugh:Hi homeowners.!!!:vs_laugh:


You seem to be a trouble maker and you you were asked twice to post an into.


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## SSP (Dec 14, 2013)

dhal22 said:


> There is no money in servicing appliances. Who gives a sh1t about their problem. Profit 1st and foremost. I hope a home owner is reading this.
> 
> Hi homeowners. :glasses:


I agree, very true most of the time. However servicing items under manufacturer warranty - different story :biggrin:


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