# pex leak



## Gary (Nov 14, 2010)

Has any of you seen any pex leaking as seen in attached pictures. This was on a heated driveway and as can be seen in the pictures the pipe had turned clear all around the split.

I would like to find out what caused the pipe to do this. I have not found out yet and as I just found this forum I thought I would put it out there. I have other pex leaks (different types) to follow if I get a answer.

Thanks,
Gary


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

You look like you might be a plumber...but to avoid the hazing...post an intro like it asks you to do..............


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Gary said:


> Has any of you seen any pex leaking as seen in attached pictures. This was on a heated driveway and as can be seen in the pictures the pipe had turned clear all around the split.
> 
> I would like to find out what caused the pipe to do this. I have not found out yet and as I just found this forum I thought I would put it out there. *I have other pex leaks (different types) to follow if I get a answer.*
> 
> ...


So what, we have to answer the question to see the rest of the pics........WE.

I got pics of copper and PVC leaking too, wanna see those pics?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

High pressure damage. Most likely freezing...


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## Gary (Nov 14, 2010)

Choctaw said:


> So what, we have to answer the question to see the rest of the pics........WE.
> 
> I got pics of copper and PVC leaking too, wanna see those pics?


Just kidding about having to solve the problem.


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## Lifer (Nov 23, 2010)

looks like freezing to me .. have ya had the glycol level checked?


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## Gary (Nov 14, 2010)

Protech said:


> High pressure damage. Most likely freezing...


 
This was in a driveway and was in the concrete itself. I do remember when I went with the Plumbing inspectors for the demo of pex pipe before it was legal here and one of the things (the pex boys) had us to do was the put a kink in the peice of pipe they gave all of us and they then passed around a torch and had us to heat it up (not in flame) and as it turned clear the kink would disappear.

I do not think the temp of the water got that hot.

Would freezing cause the pipe to turn clear? The pipe would not have been able to expand to much as it was in solid cement.


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## Gary (Nov 14, 2010)

Lifer said:


> looks like freezing to me .. have ya had the glycol level checked?


I did not as when I was called out it was the middle of the summer and the plumber had been running it to try to find leak and of course it was leaking bad enough that it was just water at that time.

Thanks,
Gary


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Probably stomped one too many times by the concrete guys in their big stomping boots.  Then it took till now to show up.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

Could it have been caused by friction between the concrete, or a rock in the concrete


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Why does your Pex say potable on it ????


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Gary said:


> had us to heat it up (not in flame) and as it turned clear the kink would disappear.



You just answered you own question.

This played a role. Might have taken this long to produce that split.


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## Lifer (Nov 23, 2010)

:thumbsup:


OldSchool said:


> Why does your Pex say potable on it ????


:thumbsup:

Good Call...

no offence to you or what you do .. but was the water not just bubbling up in the driveway? the plumber could not see it ?..

also it does not look to me like those lines were encased in concrete , covered perhaps but encased they look to easily accessible ...

I have seen the pex guy's demo, the one with the torch .. kinda spooky 

I have seen pex turn clear when it was stretched by ice , which has incredible forces behind it ....


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Lifer said:


> :thumbsup::thumbsup:
> 
> Good Call...
> 
> ...


Thats right the PEX should have an oxygen barrier..... like HPEX.... this would have been a closed system with glycol.....


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Lifer said:


> :thumbsup::thumbsup:
> 
> Good Call...
> 
> ...


I also agree that the PEX was not in the concrete ..... this is more than likely the reason for the wear in the pipe.... once the pipe wall was thined out it could not hold the pressure


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## Gary (Nov 14, 2010)

Lifer said:


> :thumbsup::thumbsup:
> 
> Good Call...
> 
> ...


The water was coming out from under the slab about 40 feet away from the leaks. When I took out the cement it was encased in the cement. There was some of the pipe that looked like it was below but where the leaks were it was encased in the concrete.

From what most are saying here it might have been from freezing.

If you have seen the pex turn clear when streched by ice then that was most likey what happened.

Some times it is tough to make a call when you are there after the fact.

Thanks,
Gary


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## plumber666 (Sep 19, 2010)

Yep, wrong kinda PEX, and I'd bet it froze too. Any Glycol? Did it have a hard piped water make-up? I've also seen pex that was poorly extruded and had thin spots every few feet. That was on some Rehau stuff. Had a manufacturing time and date stamp on it. It was made in Germay, and made on a Monday in October. Monday during Oktoberfest? It was too cliche.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

I wonder why the 1 1/2" Wirsbo glycol line I installed over 5 years ago with Uponor's blessing BTW, is still doing service without failure. It was not HPEX.


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## Gary (Nov 14, 2010)

After the help here I am thinking that the pipe was encased in the concrete but as it was leaking on the underside on both pieces that there was concrete all around the pipe and the place where it was clear was the only place where there was not concrete and it froze. That would explain why it would expand just in the one place and turn clear.

Thanks for all your help,
Gary


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## Lifer (Nov 23, 2010)

plumber666 said:


> Yep, wrong kinda PEX, and I'd bet it froze too. Any Glycol? Did it have a hard piped water make-up? I've also seen pex that was poorly extruded and had thin spots every few feet. That was on some Rehau stuff. Had a manufacturing time and date stamp on it. It was made in Germay, and made on a Monday in October. Monday during Oktoberfest? It was too cliche.


 
ok you've got me wondering now ... never mind as i typed the question hard piped water make up ?...I answered my own question ..

if there was a possible leak draining the glycol enough to lower the % in the ice melt ... could have froze that way ... infact this is my bet as well.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I highly doubt that happen from freezing.....

I bet it was from thermal expansion of the PEX pipe..

That being said ... the bottom of the pipe was not in the concrete..

PEX tubing does expand when hot water is applied to it... the rest of the pex is in the concrete which could not expand and the only place which would allow the expansion was were the area of pipe that was not in cased in concrete... this would cause a rubbing action as the pex expanded and contracted..... wearing the pipe thin... eventually bursting from the pressure in the system....

I have had many frozen pex in concrete slab and have never had a broken pipe yet.


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## Gary (Nov 14, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> I highly doubt that happen from freezing.....
> 
> I bet it was from thermal expansion of the PEX pipe..
> 
> ...


I think you might be on the right track as I just got the pipe out and you can tell just where the concrete was not on the pipe (I wish I could get a picture to show how you can till just where the cement was holding it). You can see where the edges of the concrete were holding the pipe and the only place where it is clear was just the SMALL place around the crack where it could expand. The clear pipe was the same as when we were heating the pipe as said above in the other post.

It just does not seen that the pipe would be that hot but encased in the concrete with just about 1/4" x 2" (on the small piece) that was able to expand might be enough for it to swell quite a bit being such a small part not in the cement.

Thanks,
Gary


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

If this were a poll, and frozen were an option, I'd vote frozen. :thumbup:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

If this was a poll I would vote thermal expansion and contraction of the PEX


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

I like conundrums. We should start a new thread where you post a problem with little info, and readers have to ask questions to discover the context, and then try to guess the answer. Kinda like "I Spy". How retro!


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## evilcyrus (Apr 27, 2009)

i would have to go with thermal expansion.... 

also i don't think that was the right pex for that application.. i've been to a job were it was a custom home MASSIVE .. rec. lines everywhere Complaint Pinhole leaks.... looked at drawings asbuilts TYPE L copper everwere requested by enginer.... opened up walls only to find 1/2 KITEC Pipe. ahhhahaha and let the fun begin.. what i pulled out looked exactly like what you've pulled out.. all over the place i was there a month replacing all the 3/4 cop type M hw mains and 1/2 rec kitec , i had a hammer in one hand and Camera in the other.. Rember this was sapposed to be all Cop L. i wished i had the pics but i dont know were they went. i was pulling peices out that were just ready to go... all in all the orignal plumber dosn't own a company anymore..


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Choctaw said:


> I wonder why the 1 1/2" Wirsbo glycol line I installed over 5 years ago with Uponor's blessing BTW, is still doing service without failure. It was not HPEX.


Uponor doesn't care what pipe you use... 

The oxygen barrier is not there to protect the pipe.... but the other equipment attached to it.... like circs and boilers.... or anything steel


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Choctaw said:


> I wonder why the 1 1/2" Wirsbo glycol line I installed over 5 years ago with Uponor's blessing BTW, is still doing service without failure. It was not HPEX.


HPEX is for systems with steel or iron components to prevent corrosion.
The Oxygen Barrier keeps the ferrous components from rusting out...
No ferrous metals then its not needed.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Definitely wrong PEX for radiant. But is there no expansion device on this system? (? For OP. And is it A PEX or B?)The tube is fatter where the hole is and it looks like a stretch mark. I have seen PEX melt on a solar closed loop and it didn't look the same so I wouldn't say it got too hot. It was potable "B" type PEX. 

For thermal expansion I could see a scenario from abrasion over a period of time, if it were in soil. But encased in concrete, IDK. It expands something like 1/8" per 8' (I think). So if it were a few inches out of concrete, that would only be a fraction of an inch of expansion. If the rest were in solid concrete it would not contribute to the expansion.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

evilcyrus said:


> i would have to go with thermal expansion....
> 
> also i don't think that was the right pex for that application.. i've been to a job were it was a custom home MASSIVE .. rec. lines everywhere Complaint Pinhole leaks.... looked at drawings asbuilts TYPE L copper everwere requested by enginer.... opened up walls only to find 1/2 KITEC Pipe. ahhhahaha and let the fun begin.. what i pulled out looked exactly like what you've pulled out.. all over the place i was there a month replacing all the 3/4 cop type M hw mains and 1/2 rec kitec , i had a hammer in one hand and Camera in the other.. Rember this was sapposed to be all Cop L. i wished i had the pics but i dont know were they went. i was pulling peices out that were just ready to go... all in all the orignal plumber dosn't own a company anymore..


Pex should never be used as a hot water line with recirc....

The last Wirsbo training I went to a year ago they told everybody that the constant flow of water with chlorine and oxygen will wear the pex out prematurely....


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

ckoch407 said:


> Definitely wrong PEX for radiant. But is there no expansion device on this system? (? For OP. And is it A PEX or B?)The tube is fatter where the hole is and it looks like a stretch mark. I have seen PEX melt on a solar closed loop and it didn't look the same so I wouldn't say it got too hot. It was potable "B" type PEX.
> 
> For thermal expansion I could see a scenario from abrasion over a period of time, if it were in soil. But encased in concrete, IDK. It expands something like 1/8" per 8' (I think). So if it were a few inches out of concrete, that would only be a fraction of an inch of expansion. If the rest were in solid concrete it would not contribute to the expansion.


In the coarse Wirsbo explained that expansion of pex does not happen were the pipe is enclosed in concrete.... the total of the the entirer length of pipe expansion is were it is out of concrete..

so lets say on 300 ft of pipe there is 3 inches of expansion.... then the 3 inches of expansion will be shared at both ends in a normal installation other than that it will occur anywhere it is not encased in concrete like the bottom of the pex in dirt.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

The PEX in the pictures below was damaged by freezing during a freeze study on different types of PEX....










Kinda looks familiar doesn't it? :whistling2:


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## bolivar (Dec 9, 2010)

I have only seen this failure a few times. I believe it may be cause by uv damage. In my studies on pex problems many center around problems with the fittings (zincification). I believe many don't understand how serious uv (sun light) exposure is to the pipe. I read one study where exposing pex to direct sun light for one week, can destroy the pipe. Around the Seattle area, I commonly see pex water service lines looped out of the ground and not covered. I make a note, because it may be my next repair call. The failure I had, the home owner put the pipe outside. Any pex left outside for me is to be thrown away.


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