# Electric Water Heaters



## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Hello, Could anyone go over the proper way to diagnos a standard water heater with 2-elements and stats. Bradford white is the popular brand around here. My service techs like to argue about the proper methods. So I would like an outsiders opinion.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

How about an intro in the intro forum, tell us who you are and where your from, what code you use.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Sorry,
My name is Randy Parker. I am 28 years old and own seminole plumbing inc. here in tallahassee Fl. The code we refer to is the 2008 international plumbing code. ICF? I believe. My father was a plumber, and his father was a plumber, so its in my blood i guess. First one to recieve a master license and start a business. So wish me luck. Fl license #CFC1427640


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Welcome to PZ, When I test elements I test the amount of resistance each one has, as far as stats, well I replaces them if the fail to shut the elements off, both if one or the other fails. What is it there telling you? How do you go about testing them?


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Been too long for me, but I am thinking like Ron.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

It's been a VERY long time since I've been in the service arena but, We were taught to use a clamp on ampmeter to read how many amps the element was drawing. I don't remember the figure though.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I test several way some probably redundant but here goes.

I test voltage supplied to the unit (top terminals on upper t-stat)

Then I vary the t-stat setting to see it switch over to the lower t-stat and check voltages there.

I check the amperage readings on both sides of the element and it better match or there is leakage to ground. It better also match for the wattage of the element.

Finally I take resistance across the element and to ground.

Yea as I said its a bit extra but it works for me.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Ok, I hate to be the one who brings this up but there is no 2008 international plumbing code which would be commonly refered to as the IPC (I have no idea what the IFC might be). It's very disturbing that the op doesn't know what code he is responsible to. Again, there is no nor will there ever be a 2008 IPC. The last published version is the 2006. I don't know how it is anywhere else but I live in a city with population of roughly 1,000,000 and MANY different municipalities virtually none of which (in fact it may be zero) have yet to adopt the 2006 IPC. Most municipalities and even the counties involved are still on the 2003 IPC which was the last IPC version published prior to 2006. Is this not common practice everywhere, to delay adoption of the latest code version?

I'm sorry but I don't know how one can be a master plumber and not know what code he is supposed to be following. 

Does this not smell like diy fishing to anyone else?

Randy, if I'm wrong and you are in fact an actual master plumber please accept my apology but for cryin' out loud find out what code you are supposed to know and then consider even getting a copy and reading it. I don't know what the certification testing requirements are in FL but surely there is a particular code involved somewhere and I am certain that it is not the non existent 2008 IPC.

Randy, if I'm not wrong about you and you are simply a clever diy'er, try any of the following: DIY chatroom, Terry Love, Ridgid. They will fall all over themselves telling you how to do it there. Can't vouch for the accuracy or the correctness of the advice but I'm sure it will be freely given.


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

I agree with smells, asking how to diagnose an electric water heater as one of his first, posts. 

It seems a little staged, I staged the following;

Hi, my name is Robert E Fraser Jr. I am a Journeyman electrician in Tallahassee Fl. My state cert number is 13001139. My fellow electricians and I were talking about the best way to wire a light with 2 switches on either end of the hallway. We cannot agree on the best way. How would you do it?

*Again, I staged the above.*

Again, as with smells, if I am wrong... sorry. If not, nice job, hope you learned how to fix your problem. By the way, Robert E Fraser Jr. is a real person, operating a real company. I figure it adds to the credibility of the above if someone were to try to look it up. My apologies to Mr. Fraser for using his name, it was top of the list and the best fit when googled.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

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12:20:39 AM 12/15/2008

Data Contained In Search Results Is Current As Of 12/15/2008 12:22 AM.
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Please see our glossary of terms for an explanation of the license status shown in these search results.

For additional information, including any complaints or discipline, click on the name.

License Type Name Name
Type License
Number/
Rank Status/Expires
Certified Plumbing Contractor	PARKER, RANDY H	Primary	CFC1427640
Cert Plumbing	Current, Active
08/31/2010
Main Address*:	xxxxxxxxxxxxx TALLAHASSEE, FL 32312
Certified Plumbing Contractor	SEMINOLE PLUMBING INC	DBA	CFC1427640
Cert Plumbing	Current, Active
08/31/2010
Main Address*:	xxxxxxxxxxxxx TALLAHASSEE, FL 32312

* denotes 
Main Address - This address is the Primary Address on file.
Mailing Address - This is the address where the mail associated with a particular license will be sent (if different from the Main or License Location addresses). 
License Location Address - This is the address where the place of business is physically located.


Seems to be legit although I am not certain whether this is a business license or a plumbing license? Can you get a plumbing contractor's business license in FL without being a certified master plumber? In either event, I would have to say that he qualifies for forum membership since being a master plumber is not a requirement for membership and he apparently owns a plumbing company.

Welcome to the forum Randy! Now go get the proper code book and read it .

P.S. I X'ed out the address since nobody needs to know that.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

uaplumber said:


> I agree with smells, asking how to diagnose an electric water heater as one of his first, posts.
> 
> It seems a little staged, I staged the following;
> 
> ...


Well that's true. I guess I naively accepted that the op is in fact at least who he says he is. He was pretty quick and easy with a name. I've been on this forum since it began and on CT before that and on Ridgid (before the snobbery became too much for me to stomach) before that and I've never posted my real name, ever. Now just because I wouldn't do it doesn't mean someone else might not do it. In fact as I think about it I think there are several people on this forum who have given at least their first name so I don't know.

I think he's probably legit (at least as a plumbing company owner) but I still can't get over not knowing what code you are supposed to be operating under. On the other hand, if I had to list each code version used in every single municipality and county contained in my service area, I'm sure that I could not do it but I am equally sure that if forced to take my best guess I would not list the non existent 2008 IPC for ANY location.


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## grandpa (Jul 13, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> Can you get a plumbing contractor's business license in FL without being a certified master plumber? .


Don't know about FL but as you may be aware, in California there is no state licensing of Plumbers. You have to get a Plumbing Contractor License to run a business, but you can hire anyone you want and send them out in your truck....alone!


As to the current question.....I have known plenty of guys who really knew bubkus about electricity, and maybe shouldn't have been working on electric water heaters!


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

SmellsLike$tome,
You are correct, it is the 2006 version. Sorry for the confusion, the last edition that we have been using is the 2004, with the 05 updates,(you know those tacky, yellow inserts.) Didn't mean to stir the pot, you guys take this stuff very seriously, glad to know that if I do need any real advice, that it will be handled by some true professionals of the trade.
As far as the water heater issue, the policy that i like to go by is to go ahead and replace both stats and elements, that should definetly take care of the issue. My reason for asking, spent to much time on new construction with my previous employer. Service is where the money is. Just an honest question on how to really tell what the problem is. Like stated before, my service techs like to argue on how to test the parts. Just was looking for an outsider opionion. Thanks.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I find that 90% of the time a bottom element will burn out long before the upper one will, so I very seldom replace both elements, as for stats, I replace the upper and lower when stat begins to trip.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

You are very correct ron,


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Its very simple.
*1)Test the power from the thermostat to the element.* (turn the thermostat all the way up to make sure it is "on") No power= bad thermostat. If you have power to the element, then the t-stat is good. (sometimes the t-stats don't shutoff or aren't reading temp. properly, but 99% they simply fail to "turn on")
*2)If you have power to the element, check with an amp-probe the element.* It should be drawing around 18 amps depending on the model. (amps(18.75a) x voltage(240v) = watts (4500w) If the element is getting power, but not drawing amps, it is blown. *(another decent method is to check the elements resistance*, a broken element will have infinite resistance, a good element will show a reading, but I can't remember the exact number).

That is it. Anything else is over-complicating it. I can get an exact diagnosis in less than a minute. I taught a class on this once to other plumbers.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Or turn the power off and feel the tank, if either of the upper or lower part of the tank is cold, there you have it, a burnt out element.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Or turn the power off and feel the tank, if either of the upper or lower part of the tank is cold, there you have it, a burnt out element.


Not quite, the element may be fine, but the t-stat is bad and not turning the element on.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Yea that too, but it's sounds logical, I always ohm test mine.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Thanks for all the input on this issue, it has been very informative. You can mark my question as answerd, if you do that on this forum.


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## Leakinator (Dec 2, 2008)

Check the voltage coming . I had one W/120 just this week.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

1. Test incoming power at top thermo. Verify that you have both phases of 120V.

2. Check to see that the high limit is not tripped. If it is, FIND OUT WHY!

3. Test continuity of thermo stats with ohm meter by turning the temp dial up and down. You should get open circuit when turned all the way down against a warm tank, and closed circuit when turned all the way up.

4. Check element ohm values. A 4500watt 240 volt element (the most common type) works out to 0.078 ohms according to ohm's law and the power formula. After checking the resistance, hook them back up and verify that you are getting voltage when the appropriate state is turned up at the element lugs. Check the amperage for the elements using an inductive ammeter and a spare piece of #10 wire if needed. For the above element you should get about 18.75 amps at 240volts. You may not get that exact # since voltage is rarely at exactly 240volts. Use the power formula to calculate the exact amperage for the voltage you are working with.

5. Check to make sure there is not a leak on the hot water piping that is draining the heat away from the heater faster than it can produce it. If there is not a ball valve on the cold inlet one needs to be installed.

6. If the unit checks out completely and is not putting out much hot water then you can say the dip tube is bad or swapped via deductive reasoning. Disconnect the water supply and return to pull and check the dip tube.

That is the complete way to diagnose an electric heater to rule out all possibilities for the cause of lack of heating or over heating.

Shouldn’t your techs already know this since they are all highly experienced plumbers? I would hate to have techs running around in peoples houses that don’t know how to do a proper water heater diagnosis. That would be scary.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

_"Shouldn’t your techs already know this since they are all highly experienced plumbers? I would hate to have techs running around in peoples houses that don’t know how to do a proper water heater diagnosis. That would be scary"

*First off protech, I never said anything regarding the skill level of my techs. Second, if you had actually read my post you could hopefully clearly read that I said they like to argue how they test them. There have been many post since then, and they are all a little different in techniques. Had also posted that my ? had been answerd, but thanks anyway for you 2 cents on the issue.*

_


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I was just ribbin you on the yer techs, no big deal.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

No problem, lets face facts, there isn't a good plumber i know, whos ego isnt the size of the planet itself. What part of fl are you based in?


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## muck (Oct 10, 2008)

gonoles06 said:


> What part of fl are you based in?


 the central part


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

I'll throw out my usual diagnosis just in case it looks a bit different than everybody else's:

First, check incoming power. Could be a blown breaker or fuse. 

Then, depending on the temperature of the tank, check if there's power to the elements - if the tank is hot at the top but cold at the bottom, you could expect that there would be power to the bottom element. 

Although there are exceptions, the top thermostat is usually an either-or switch and never actually shuts off, while the bottom thermostat is usually a on-off switch.

Once you've determined whether the power is where it's supposed to be, then shut it off and check the elements for continuity - remove the wires from the elements to keep from getting a false signal, check across the two screws first - there should be continuity. Then check from each screw to the hex nut of the element to see if there is continuity there - there shouldn't be. If there is, it's shorting to the tank and needs replaced.

If there is sign of burning on any of the screws, it's a good idea to recommend replacement of both thermostats, even if it's only the bottom element that's gone. It's difficult to test whether thermostats are working without standing around for an hour while the first element heats then switches and a trip back is more expensive. 

Here, with our excessive lime sediment, the bottom element is usually destroyed by overheating in a bed of guck. That means cleaning the garbage from the tank before putting in a new element. 

And sediment can stick to the inside of the tank in front of thermostats and mess up their reading, so make sure to scrape above the element hole!

Anodes and bacteria can produce a gel substance that can build up enough to destroy an element. That needs flushed, too.

Disturbed sediment can also plug faucets and aerators - make sure they're clear before you leave.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Thanks Muck. What wasn't I thinkn?


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