# New Company I'm Working For Expects a Lot From Me



## mires (Oct 14, 2012)

I'm a 2nd year apprentice (barely). I worked for a 2 man show down in Texas for 14 months. Just me and the Master. We did lots of basic remodels, service calls, and we did do one new house while I was with him. He was a great plumber and while I learn quick and am willing to do, not just watch, he understood that you can't just pick something up right away and know what you're doing. 

Fast forward one year, I am in Missouri and just started with a new company last Monday. I applied to the ad in the paper and ended up meeting up with the owner in the Home Depot parking lot to meet and talk. This meeting was all of 5 minutes and consisted of him asking me if I had experience, if I have a level and a tape measure and can I start on Monday? We agreed to $12/hour and he assured me he gives raises often as long as someone doesn't have to come behind me and fix my screw-ups. That should have been a red flag. 

I'm rambling. Basically what it boils down to is I got stuck working mostly with a journeyman who thinks I know a lot more than I do. I told the owner what I could do when I met him but he apparently he did not relay that to the Journeyman I'm working with. Seems anytime he asks me to do something, he gets all kinds of frustrated when I tell him I've never done it before or don't know how to. Again, I am willing to learn but I need to be shown. You can't just ask me if I can and when I say "no, I never have", get pissed off and do it yourself while sending me to do some menial task. 

They are spread really thin right now with employees and have probably 3 times as many jobs going right now than they probably should. 

Today, I was told to go to a job (yes, I have to drive to most of the jobs) and that I would be working alone all day. The journeyman met me there first thing and lined me out on what to do. Most of which I didn't understand and I was sure to tell him that. He literally told me to just do my best and if I screwed something up, it would just have to be fixed. :blink:

It is an office addition with 2 restrooms and 2 hose bibbs on opposite sides of the building. I was told to get the beam clamps, all thread and copper hangers where they need to go. How the hell am I supposed to know where they go? He says just find a straight path, stay away from the air ducts, hang them at the same height and all that jazz. Keep in mind this is before all the ductwork is in place. The units are there but as a guy new in the trade, I don't know how large those ducts are, where they will be hung exactly, how far I have to be away from that stuff, etc. 

In short, my 2nd week on the job, I was left alone to work on a 12 foot ladder all day hanging copper hangers which included taking them down and relocating them, finding a new route after the tinners got there and started hanging their ductwork. I'm not sure about Missouri just yet but I know in Texas, an apprentice is NOT supposed to be left alone. The way these guys talk though, if you work for a plumbing company, you're a plumber. Flattering, and one day I will be a plumber. A damn fine one. But for now, I'm an apprentice and I need guidance. 

Sorry for the novel. Does any of this sound right to you guys? I'm starting to think I should already be looking for a new company to work for. I mean, the promise of good money and frequent raises is nice, but I want to do this the right way.


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

You should not be left alone to do a major plumbing job. Not sure running a couple of lines from point A to B is considered a major job and as a second year Apprentice you should be able to handle the task. 
Keep asking questions and do your best.


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

I would RUN FOR YOURE LIFE.
You should be working in direct supervision of you're journeyman.. I wouldnt have a issue with delegating hanger work for a apprentice but you're Journeyman should have chalk lined you out or given you a set of plans..?

Does you're state require apprenticship schooling and does you're employer have you registered?

Do you guys have an actual shop? or just drive job to job?

Meeting a potential new hire in the parking lot of a home depot and not at office or shop is unprofessional in my opinion..

Sounds like a hack operation endangering the public by having unskilled apprentice level plumbing work performed on public buildings


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

I agree with plumbworker dude! You shouldn't be left alone on a project. And if you must, your journeyman should literally draw you out your task through an isometric of some sort. This is what I would do for the inexperienced guys working beneath me. We had "techs" not so much an apprenticeship, but after a year, I felt confident they know how to glue pipe, so as long as I drew out fitting by fitting and taught them rough-in measurements, they would do just fine. But I would never tell them "just get from point A-B.


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

I was roughing houses in at just over the 8 month mark by myself. It was horrible. but man will you learn fast. no it's not legal, do your best. 

I would not want to be the owner of one of those houses I plumbed so long ago. unfortunate for the customers but a great way for me to learn plumbing and code FAST. and probably get an ulcer. kind of like learning a foreign language-total emersion.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

What part of Missouri are you in? Ever considered service work?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

You need to get a job with a real Plumbing Business Operator. Your current employer is not.

Keep your head down, do your best, and start looking for another shop to call home.


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## MatthewWats (Nov 20, 2014)

Totally agree with the statement of HSI, you will not left alone for the project. If you are facing such a situation, then find your self a knowledgeable person. 
You are an experience one also, as you had mentioned here, that you had worked for 2 man, so it is quit obvious that you will find this type of conditions. 
Don't worry just do your best. take help from this forum or Google.
All the best.


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

MatthewWats said:


> ........Don't worry just do your best. take help from this forum or Google.
> All the best.


Help from Google? :what: Are you a YouTube plumber?


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## 240Jordy (May 5, 2012)

Always ask yourself, "What am I going to take away from this?" Yes, you may be able to tough it out, and in the end it might make you a great plumber. But is it worth it to stress yourself out and have no one to rely on for answers? As an apprentice you should be looking for an outfit that will offer you the best learning experience possible. Don't waste this time in your career working for a bunch of jokers. Find a reputable company that wants to foster your learning. 

This doesn't mean you will never work alone or have questions, but you at least need the proper guidance and encouragement. And let me tell you, a lot of Journeymen really appreciate the willingness to ask questions and learn.

Keep your chin up bud.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

you should run for your life like the other guy said....

you are gonna be the "kicking boy" when the crap hits the fan on any job that turns out bad... they are all gonna blame it on you for everything.....

the journeyman will dump on you even though they know you dont have the experience
They will hang you out to dry to save their own worthless skins in a heart-beat..even if you only spent 2 minutes on the job they will claim that you are to blame and you need to go 



.

I have been there and done that long ago 
and I got the hell out before a disaster was 
pinned on me


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## mires (Oct 14, 2012)

Thanks for all the input guys. I agree with most of what has been said. I know the owner/master plumber is a great plumber but not a great businessman. That is what it all boils down to. He takes on entirely too much work for the amount of guys he has. If he expects to stay on top of things, he needs plumbers. Not apprentices.

Today I went back to that job and had to move all my hangers up because they were too low. I actually spoke with the tinner yesterday and he assured me that I would be above his ducts but it turns out the unit on the other side of the building is bigger and sets up higher which put me right in line of where his duct is going. Not my fault and the Journeyman didn't blame me for that or anything but then proceeded to tell me to always just get the hangers up as high to the beams as you can. That's fine but he couldn't have maybe mentioned that little tidbit yesterday? I just know if I were the owner of a company, I wouldn't want to pay someone to do the same job twice. Call me weird. Instead though, they are ok with that. They just want everything done right now and real fast. They'll fix it if you screw it up. Just doesn't make a lick of sense to me. 

I pride myself on doing things right. I take my time and make cuts as perfect as possible, don't sling primer everywhere, clean the crap out of copper before soldering, always measure everything twice, etc. These things take time but that is just my pace of work. I would rather do a great job one time than have to do the same job twice. Or waste pipe because you realized your cut is too short. Can't get a good solder joint because you didn't clean the pipe and fittings good enough. These are the kinds of things I am seeing from these guys do because they have to work so fast. I just don't need that kind of pressure as someone with the limited experience I have. 

Again, thank you all for your input. I am already starting to look for a new company to work for but in the meantime will take in what I can and do the best job I can as always.


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## mires (Oct 14, 2012)

Plumbworker said:


> Does you're state require apprenticship schooling and does you're employer have you registered?
> 
> Do you guys have an actual shop? or just drive job to job?
> 
> Meeting a potential new hire in the parking lot of a home depot and not at office or shop is unprofessional in my opinion..


 No schooling required and I'm not 100% sure on what is required as far as being a registered apprentice goes. I have searched and searched but just can't seem to come up with much. I asked the owner and he said that Columbia (the town we do most work in) does require registration but they're so lax about it that he literally doesn't have but one guy with any kind of plumbing license. And there is one guy who has been with him for 8 years!! Should be a journeyman making great money but instead is usually digging a ditch. Blows my mind. 

There is no shop. When I work a full day with the Journeyman, I just meet him at the supply house and ride with him which is fine. When I am on a job by myself though, I of course have to drive there. Today, I went to one job and then to another in my personal vehicle. Again, something that was never explained to me when I was hired. I'm either going to need a hefty raise or I'll have to be reimbursed for my gas. In my opinion, It isn't fair to ask an apprentice to use his own vehicle to get to the jobs. Keep in mind I am not doing service work or anything. We are mostly doing new construction but still.


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## mires (Oct 14, 2012)

plumberkc said:


> What part of Missouri are you in? Ever considered service work?


I am in the Columbia area. Honestly, I want to get a taste of it all. I got that with my previous boss doing remodels, service, new construction. He was a really great guy to work for and I was learning a lot but I had to come back to Missouri. 

The company I am with now does the kind of work I would really like to be doing right now but I'm not sure it's worth it. I think working on commercial construction can teach me a ton that I would love to know, but if I'm learning the wrong way, what good is it really?


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## Tomplumb (Oct 2, 2013)

I have a master liscense in Columbia but haven't worked there in a few years. If you would like the name of a couple of good companies to work for send me a pm.


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

mires said:


> he literally doesn't have but one guy with any kind of plumbing license. And there is one guy who has been with him for 8 years!! Should be a journeyman making great money but instead is usually digging a ditch.
> 
> There is no shop. When I work a full day with the Journeyman, I just meet him at the supply house and ride with him./QUOTE]
> 
> Yeah man i hope you can find a legit plumbing outfit to work for as it sounds like you wont be learning much of anything to becoming a true professinal in this trade working with this guy.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

A lot of new construction outfits don't provide work vehicles for getting to and from work. That's why you'll see all kinds of different cars parked at job sights. The jacked up F250s and nice Chevy's are usually the foremen's trucks.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> A lot of new construction outfits don't provide work vehicles for getting to and from work. That's why you'll see all kinds of different cars parked at job sights. The jacked up F250s and nice Chevy's are usually the foremen's trucks.


That's pretty common for the sparky's. The construction guys do not always have a a company truck. Especially on bigger projects. It makes perfect sense from a business standpoint. All material and tools delivered and secured onsite. Just show up and do your 8 to 5.


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## srloren (Nov 19, 2014)

I remember when I started plumbing on my 16th birthday. My neighbor had a plumbing business he ran out of his home. Had a 8' high chain link fence around the back half of his lot. On Saturday we would leave from his home, next door and during the week I would call his wife to learn where I would drive to meet up with him. He was a great, I mean great employer and really wanted me to go to college. Many times he asked to borrow my car to drive to the supply house to pick up something small and every time he borrowed it, he would fill the gas tank and stop at a market and buy me a quart of milk. He love to watch me drink a quart. One time he brought a half gallon and it was all I could do to finish it off. But my stomach hurt so bad for a few hours after drinking that half gallon of milk. I swear I thought I was going to die. He didn't realize how much harm to my body that could have caused. I respected him most of any man except for my Dad. He was the best. I worked for him thru High School and enlisted in the Army a week after graduation. Remember this was back in 1955 in south east Los Angeles. When I returned home he did not need a helper so I went to work for a Plumbing Supply House. After a few months there, a couple of Plumbers that were partners in a business asked me to come to work for them because they could see that I new a lot about the fittings and plumbing in general, for a young guy. They told me they could get me in the Union so I was glad to work for them. You will find that if you are trying your best and learning as much as you can quickly, an employer will appreciate the inexpensive labor. But a good employer will give you raises concurrent with your knowledge level and your work ethic. I took Code classes at LA Trade Tech and this was very beneficial. Like one of the guys said, keep your head down and do the best you can. Learn as much as you can outside of the job and it will pay off for you. There is a lot of work out there and the guys that go for it and show they are dedicated will get their share. One last thing to mention is that working in construction will expose you to danger that you will not see in an office. Learn as much about safety as you can and protect yourself, wear protection for your eyes learn to lift correctly to save your back. If something is too heavy, don't even think about lifting it....it could have life long consequences.
I wish I were your age again. You have chosen a great trade. It sure was good to me. All the best to you. Now for one more suggestion. If I could start my education all over, I would study, study, and study my _ss off. You have a great advantage if you have an education from a good school... not all colleges qualify to be a good school. Choose carefully .... SrLoren


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## _*A*_ (Nov 21, 2014)

plbgbiz said:


> That's pretty common for the sparky's. The construction guys do not always have a a company truck. Especially on bigger projects. It makes perfect sense from a business standpoint. All material and tools delivered and secured onsite. Just show up and do your 8 to 5.


Exactly, for a long time my company didn't have any trucks outside of the ones the workers showed up in. Couldn't wait to buy our first logo truck though :laughing:


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## Dpeckplb (Sep 20, 2013)

When I started in high school, the guy that I started my apprenticeship was just a single master plumber business man. I really learned a lot with him about new construction, Reno's and service. Unfortunately when I graduated the economy took a down turn and a few factories closed down. Well almost all of those people became a "handyman" which people chose to hire because of there cheap rates. So he became slow and I moved on. I actually left the trade for two years(almost permently). I was called to my first block of schooling. I met with a company owner that was at the school one day, and he hired me. Needless to say I lasted two days when the owner started looking for tool boxes for my personal truck and that I could let others use my truck for a few days.
Now I am with a company that cares. I go to the shop in the morning, get my orders and jump in my work truck and am on my way. If I need a tool then it shows up. Hopefully you find a really good shop. It makes going to work so much more enjoyable when you are happy with who you work for.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

mires said:


> ....Not my fault and the Journeyman didn't blame me for that or anything but then proceeded to tell me to always just get the hangers up as high to the beams as you can. That's fine but he couldn't have maybe mentioned that little tidbit yesterday? I just know if I were the owner of a company, I wouldn't want to pay someone to do the same job twice. Call me weird. Instead though, they are ok with that. They just want everything done right now and real fast. They'll fix it if you screw it up. Just doesn't make a lick of sense to me...........


Whiner. 

1. Hanging all thread is nothing for a 2 year.
2. YOU didn't think out the simple job of plotting the route.
3. You'll be fired long before you quit.

The good news? You can read and write better than a college professor, so maybe a office job is better suited to ya. Good luck.


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## mires (Oct 14, 2012)

Plumber said:


> Whiner.
> 
> 1. Hanging all thread is nothing for a 2 year.
> 2. YOU didn't think out the simple job of plotting the route.
> ...


1. I never said it was a tough job. Just that I had never done it before and was left with "get it done" instructions. Nobody likes to have the stress of not knowing whether they are doing something right or not. Especially with no one around to even ask. 

2. I plotted the route the best I could considering there were a lot of things not up yet that I'm not supposed to be in the way of such as ducts, fire sprinkler lines etc. 

3. I assure you I will not be fired. I'm a hard worker, always show up early, not in a rush to leave and will do whatever is asked of me. I just feel like I should have some guidance when asked to do a task I've never done before. I don't think that is much to ask.

Thanks for the compliment on my reading and writing skills? An office job isn't for me however. I like to work with my hands, stay active and use porta johns when it's 15 degrees outside. Ok, maybe not that last part :laughing:


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

I bet you learned more in 1 day then you would learn in 2 weeks with a journeyman.  
It's wrong to be out plumbing unsupervised, but you learned how to think on a job and what to look out for, that doesn't happen when things go right or somebody else does the thinking for you. 
trust me plenty of journeymen have to move pipe because somebody else needs the space and they have no choice.


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## mires (Oct 14, 2012)

saysflushable said:


> I bet you learned more in 1 day then you would learn in 2 weeks with a journeyman.
> It's wrong to be out plumbing unsupervised, but you learned how to think on a job and what to look out for, that doesn't happen when things go right or somebody else does the thinking for you.
> trust me plenty of journeymen have to move pipe because somebody else needs the space and they have no choice.


That's certainly a good way of looking at it. And you're right. I now know what to consider and keep in mind the next time the situation arises. Which will be sooner than later I'm sure. Thanks for that my friend :thumbsup:


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

mires said:


> That's certainly a good way of looking at it. And you're right. I now know what to consider and keep in mind the next time the situation arises. Which will be sooner than later I'm sure. Thanks for that my friend :thumbsup:


 know trouble. I was tossed into the same meat grinder you are. it was horrible, But the learning came quick. Now when you do something wrong you can say "I didn't know I'm new" when you are a journeyman that won't fly as far. New journeymen struggle on jobs by themselves. your struggling will be long over:thumbup:


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

saysflushable said:


> no trouble. I was tossed into the same meat grinder you are. it was horrible, But the learning came quick. Now when you do something wrong you can say "I didn't know I'm new" when you are a journeyman that won't fly as far. New journeymen struggle on jobs by themselves. your struggling will be long over:thumbup:


........


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

saysflushable said:


> know trouble. I was tossed into the same meat grinder you are. it was horrible, But the learning came quick. Now when you do something wrong you can say "I didn't know I'm new" when you are a journeyman that won't fly as far. New journeymen struggle on jobs by themselves. your struggling will be long over:thumbup:


 I mean no trouble although I have known trouble:jester:


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## mires (Oct 14, 2012)

saysflushable said:


> I mean no trouble although I have known trouble:jester:


 Haha, I have known trouble myself. 
Last couple of days have been a bit better other than never having the right sized ladder :laughing:

These guys for some reason always seem to have a ladder 2 foot shorter than it needs to be and then just stand on the very top "step" to get things done. I hate that.


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## srloren (Nov 19, 2014)

*Don't even think about stepping on the top 2 rungs of the ladder*

The contractor you are working for is not paying attention to the safety of his employees. Look for another job before you get injured. I believe that falling off of ladders is the highest accident incident rate of all. Does this guy have a valid Contractor's License and the required Insurance for his employees. Sounds "fly by night to me."

Are you attending an Apprenticeship School?


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## mires (Oct 14, 2012)

srloren said:


> The contractor you are working for is not paying attention to the safety of his employees. Look for another job before you get injured. I believe that falling off of ladders is the highest accident incident rate of all. Does this guy have a valid Contractor's License and the required Insurance for his employees. Sounds "fly by night to me."
> 
> Are you attending an Apprenticeship School?


They have been in business for 14 years so not fly by night. Not properly managed though. They are construction guys and are just of the "use what you got" and "get it done" mentality. Obviously I would love to get it done, but it's going to take me a bit longer to tighten up this 1'' gas line above the attic joists while standing on the "top step'' of a 6' ladder. Oh, and using a HF pipe wrench I had to borrow from one of the other guys. Pipe wrenches are the only basic hand tools I don't have right now and that's because I want to get the Ridgid aluminums. They are a little pricey but after yesterday, I'm gonna pull the trigger a little quicker than accepted. 

I'm not in an apprenticeship school and I'm not sure that is even offered in my area but I will definitely be looking into it. 

Thanks for your input man.


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## supakingDFW (Aug 19, 2014)

mires said:


> They have been in business for 14 years so not fly by night. Not properly managed though. They are construction guys and are just of the "use what you got" and "get it done" mentality. Obviously I would love to get it done, but it's going to take me a bit longer to tighten up this 1'' gas line above the attic joists while standing on the "top step'' of a 6' ladder. Oh, and using a HF pipe wrench I had to borrow from one of the other guys. Pipe wrenches are the only basic hand tools I don't have right now and that's because I want to get the Ridgid aluminums. They are a little pricey but after yesterday, I'm gonna pull the trigger a little quicker than accepted.
> 
> I'm not in an apprenticeship school and I'm not sure that is even offered in my area but I will definitely be looking into it.
> 
> Thanks for your input man.


Duuuuude....stay off the tops steps of that ladder. Never put your life in danger to complete a job that some jackwagon company can't provide proper equipment for...


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

This plumbing job provides plenty of ways to get hurt. Don't aid in the process by doing something you know is dangerous.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

mires said:


> They have been in business for 14 years so not fly by night. Not properly managed though. They are construction guys and are just of the "use what you got" and "get it done" mentality. Obviously I would love to get it done, but it's going to take me a bit longer to tighten up this 1'' gas line above the attic joists while standing on the "top step'' of a 6' ladder. Oh, and using a HF pipe wrench I had to borrow from one of the other guys. Pipe wrenches are the only basic hand tools I don't have right now and that's because I want to get the Ridgid aluminums. They are a little pricey but after yesterday, I'm gonna pull the trigger a little quicker than accepted.
> 
> I'm not in an apprenticeship school and I'm not sure that is even offered in my area but I will definitely be looking into it.
> 
> Thanks for your input man.


You're working with plumbers and the only pipe wrench you can borrow is a Harbor Freight brand? What kind of plumbers are you working with?? Yeah definitely spend the cash on some good aluminum ridgid wrenches. 

And just like someone's already said, do not work on the top step of ladders. No one gets the "bad-ass" award for being unsafe in order to "just get the job done." No job or paycheck is worth compromising your safety ever, no matter what the boss says. If its not safe and the company refuses to make it safe, don't accept it. Move on.


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## CT18 (Sep 18, 2012)

Also if you plan on continuing in the plumbing field make sure you get your paper work in order. I am not sure what is required in your state as far as apprenticeship documentation.


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## GrtLksPlbr (Aug 12, 2014)

mires, you come across as willing to learn the trade and intelligent. I wish you were in my area because I'd love to set up an interview with someone such as you.

Be safe, keep your eyes and ears open and keep a close eye on those new Ridgid pipe wrenches. Stuff like that tends to disappear.


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