# looking for new tricks/ideas.



## Mr.Layhe (Jul 17, 2015)

Hey Guys,

First off this is my first post. Been doing a bit of reading on here, and I'm pretty impressed with the amount of quality threads I've come across.

I'm a 4th year apprentice doing ICI, and some small resi jobs. The Journeyman I work under is great and has taught me everything I know. But I'm looking for some new ways to try and be even more efficient.

Couple things would be -

1) What do you guys use to make your holes in steel studs? Hole saw? Punch?

2) What do you use to brace your copper pipe in a wall? (We just use scrap copper, horizontally and then tack it.)

3) Figuring out offsets in the air? Rather than getting on the ladder, measuring and calculating 1.414, or trying to eye it up. I read on here some guys chalk line their mains, and transfer it to the ceiling, then measuring and cutting offsets on the floor. (Cast)

I'm confused with this - or did I just read it wrong?

I know these questions are quite basic. But just trying to see if anyone has any input.


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## Johnny Canuck (Feb 24, 2015)

Mr.Layhe said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> First off this is my first post. Been doing a bit of reading on here, and I'm pretty impressed with the amount of quality threads I've come across.
> 
> ...


1) I usually used a recip mainly because the steel studs were only supporting drywall. 
2) Same thing - scrap copper, flattened on the end, screwed to the studs, copper wire tying it to the pipe then soldered and cleaned. 
3) I just used 1.414, no chalk although I've heard of that as well


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Mr.Layhe said:


> Hey Guys, First off this is my first post. Been doing a bit of reading on here, and I'm pretty impressed with the amount of quality threads I've come across. I'm a 4th year apprentice doing ICI, and some small resi jobs. The Journeyman I work under is great and has taught me everything I know. But I'm looking for some new ways to try and be even more efficient. Couple things would be - 1) What do you guys use to make your holes in steel studs? Hole saw? Punch? 2) What do you use to brace your copper pipe in a wall? (We just use scrap copper, horizontally and then tack it.) 3) Figuring out offsets in the air? Rather than getting on the ladder, measuring and calculating 1.414, or trying to eye it up. I read on here some guys chalk line their mains, and transfer it to the ceiling, then measuring and cutting offsets on the floor. (Cast) I'm confused with this - or did I just read it wrong? I know these questions are quite basic. But just trying to see if anyone has any input.


 I just have one question... Is that you talking Mr Lahey, or is it the liquor?


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## KoleckeINC (Oct 22, 2011)

Can't afford a punch, so dw125 holesaw it is. 

Whatever is handy, I keep scrap wood and lots of screws. T25 star heads for 3 and 4" screws are a must.
And I use the folding ruler for my travels like RJ. 

Eyeball the mains but laser guide the hanger heights. I use a Dewalt cross laser for all new stuff.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Invest in a punch. It is faster and will punch more holes than you could ever drill in a day. Laying out the mains on the floor not only gives you cut length but it also gives you hanger layout. This is well worth the time and effort.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Stud punch all the way for water. But I don't personally like the 2" punch for waste & vent.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I was just looking for your intro... That's all...


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## Mr.Layhe (Jul 17, 2015)

Johns_TPS said:


> 1) I usually used a recip mainly because the steel studs were only supporting drywall.
> 2) Same thing - scrap copper, flattened on the end, screwed to the studs, copper wire tying it to the pipe then soldered and cleaned.
> 3) I just used 1.414, no chalk although I've heard of that as well


Thanks for your input


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## Mr.Layhe (Jul 17, 2015)

plumberkc said:


> I just have one question... Is that you talking Mr Lahey, or is it the liquor?


I am the liquor 😉


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## Mr.Layhe (Jul 17, 2015)

KoleckeINC said:


> Can't afford a punch, so dw125 holesaw it is.
> 
> Whatever is handy, I keep scrap wood and lots of screws. T25 star heads for 3 and 4" screws are a must.
> And I use the folding ruler for my travels like RJ.
> ...


What do you mean a folding ruler?


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## Mr.Layhe (Jul 17, 2015)

wyrickmech said:


> Invest in a punch. It is faster and will punch more holes than you could ever drill in a day. Laying out the mains on the floor not only gives you cut length but it also gives you hanger layout. This is well worth the time and effort.


So say you had 100ft of mains. You'd, lay out your main on the floor, eyeball where your branches and offsets would be and cut the full lengths? And then continue on?


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## Mr.Layhe (Jul 17, 2015)

89plumbum said:


> Stud punch all the way for water. But I don't personally like the 2" punch for waste & vent.


Yeah, I always feel like a tool using a hole saw all the time. Especially when they're all dull! Hah

What do you guys use so the copper doesn't touch steel studs?


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## Gruvplumbing (Dec 26, 2013)

Mr.Layhe said:


> Yeah, I always feel like a tool using a hole saw all the time. Especially when they're all dull! Hah What do you guys use so the copper doesn't touch steel studs?


Plastic grommets that are the size for the punch we use. They work great.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Mr.Layhe said:


> Yeah, I always feel like a tool using a hole saw all the time. Especially when they're all dull! Hah
> 
> What do you guys use so the copper doesn't touch steel studs?


Mickeys.


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## Mr.Layhe (Jul 17, 2015)

OpenSights said:


> Mickeys.


What is that?


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Mr.Layhe said:


> What is that?


https://www.ferguson.com/product/proflo-poly-suspension-pipe-clamp-pf34/_/A-760250


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Mr.Layhe;
What do you guys use so the copper doesn't touch steel studs?[/QUOTE said:


> Stud punches are the way to go, unless the steel is too thick. I've even used a torch to burn holes in heavier gauge steel studs.


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## KoleckeINC (Oct 22, 2011)

&&$("(@;@/&("(@/&/&:&"(" 
What do you mean you've never seen a FOLDING RULER! It does the 1.414 math for you.


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

If your looking for support options get yourself a Hold-Rite or Sioux Chief catalog,lots of different choices in them.I'm not a big fan of eyeballing things,it doesn't take any longer to lay your runs out on the floor so they are right on target and then transfer it all up.You can figure your cuts,hanger lengths,everything before you climb a ladder or ride a lift up.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Mr.Layhe said:


> So say you had 100ft of mains. You'd, lay out your main on the floor, eyeball where your branches and offsets would be and cut the full lengths? And then continue on?


Eyeball? Now that you know what a folding ruler is let's move on to discussing plumb bobs. Or even better a cheap laser.


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

Mr.Layhe said:


> I am the liquor 😉


best TV series ever


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## Mr.Layhe (Jul 17, 2015)

OpenSights said:


> https://www.ferguson.com/product/proflo-poly-suspension-pipe-clamp-pf34/_/A-760250


Looks decent. We usually just use coated valleys, but maybe we can try those out!


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## Mr.Layhe (Jul 17, 2015)

Plumbus said:


> Stud punches are the way to go, unless the steel is too thick. I've even used a torch to burn holes in heavier gauge steel studs.


I've used something similar to that before. Is it two pieces that snap together from each side of the stud?


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## Mr.Layhe (Jul 17, 2015)

KoleckeINC said:


> &&$("(@;@/&("(@/&/&:&"("
> What do you mean you've never seen a FOLDING RULER! It does the 1.414 math for you.


Haha nice


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## Mr.Layhe (Jul 17, 2015)

leakfree said:


> If your looking for support options get yourself a Hold-Rite or Sioux Chief catalog,lots of different choices in them.I'm not a big fan of eyeballing things,it doesn't take any longer to lay your runs out on the floor so they are right on target and then transfer it all up.You can figure your cuts,hanger lengths,everything before you climb a ladder or ride a lift up.


I'll definitely check out those catalogs if I can find one. I'm up in Canada, but at least it'll be a reference point.

I've never done that route. Usually, we run our main, and then go back and do our branches from the start and work our way out. Usually we don't deal with much cast here. Mostly PVC system 15 and XFR.


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## Mr.Layhe (Jul 17, 2015)

dhal22 said:


> Eyeball? Now that you know what a folding ruler is let's move on to discussing plumb bobs. Or even better a cheap laser.


I've just never done it with laying it out on the floor. So I'm trying to understand the process.

That being said, if I do have a small offset, I'm very good at eyeballing my 45's and getting my measurement.


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## Mr.Layhe (Jul 17, 2015)

Bayside500 said:


> best TV series ever


Haha absolutely.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Mr.Layhe said:


> 89plumbum said:
> 
> 
> > Stud punch all the way for water. But I don't personally like the 2" punch for waste & vent.
> ...


Grommets, copper hold-rites, copper split rings. I always carry isolation tape with me too. Add-a-hangers can be a good way to support your copper for mid bracing.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

I use pipe tites (grommets) and hold rite brackets for decades. Very useful products.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Mr.Layhe said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> First off this is my first post. Been doing a bit of reading on here, and I'm pretty impressed with the amount of quality threads I've come across.
> 
> ...


1: Stud punch for copper and 2" drains and vents. Anything bigger, structural studs or where the punch won't fit gets a hole saw. If you spray the stud with wd-40 the hole saw will last longer but it does smoke a little.

2: Usually fire rated wood with bell hangers. It makes it easier for the guy to insulate the pipes and you can use a galvi clip on your vent to support that while you're at it.

3: I've gotten to the point where my eye ball for an offset is 99% accurate. If it's a funky angle or can't get in the right position to eye ball it I'll use the formulas. I've only seen one guy layout his pipe and fittings on the floor. He was the slowest guy we had and didn't last very long.

As far as isolating the copper when you go through a metal stud I usually use the grommets that fit the stud punch or the mickey suspension clips. The mickey clips hold the pipe better but take longer to put in.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

bct p&h said:


> Mr.Layhe said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Guys,
> ...


Galvi clip? You got a pic?


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## pianoplumber (Apr 19, 2014)

Just unscrew the studs and throw them on the floor. You are WAY more important than framers.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

89plumbum said:


> Galvi clip? You got a pic?


Sorry, might be a regional saying. It's just a 2 hole clip


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## Mr.Layhe (Jul 17, 2015)

89plumbum said:


> Grommets, copper hold-rites, copper split rings. I always carry isolation tape with me too. Add-a-hangers can be a good way to support your copper for mid bracing.


Yeah, we use split rings all the time as well. Usually, if a coated valley wont work.


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## Mr.Layhe (Jul 17, 2015)

dhal22 said:


> I use pipe tites (grommets) and hold rite brackets for decades. Very useful products.


I'll have to try and see if my local supplier carries these. I'd like to try them out.


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## Mr.Layhe (Jul 17, 2015)

bct p&h said:


> 1: Stud punch for copper and 2" drains and vents. Anything bigger, structural studs or where the punch won't fit gets a hole saw. If you spray the stud with wd-40 the hole saw will last longer but it does smoke a little.
> 
> 2: Usually fire rated wood with bell hangers. It makes it easier for the guy to insulate the pipes and you can use a galvi clip on your vent to support that while you're at it.
> 
> ...


I'm definitely going to try and convince my foreman to buy a punch. We do a lot of rough ins, and go through hole saw bits like nothing. What's the cost of a decent punch kit? Recommend any brand in particular?


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Mr.Layhe said:


> I'm definitely going to try and convince my foreman to buy a punch. We do a lot of rough ins, and go through hole saw bits like nothing. What's the cost of a decent punch kit? Recommend any brand in particular?


I think most of us are talking about the single size punches, not the kits. I have 2 different sizes, I believe the small one for water pipe is 1¼" and the larger one is 2⅝" is perfect for 2" cast iron and PVC.
The small one is around $250 and the big one is around $400 but they are easy to find in used tool shops.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

bct p&h said:


> 1: Stud punch for copper and 2" drains and vents. Anything bigger, structural studs or where the punch won't fit gets a hole saw. If you spray the stud with wd-40 the hole saw will last longer but it does smoke a little.
> 
> 2: Usually fire rated wood with bell hangers. It makes it easier for the guy to insulate the pipes and you can use a galvi clip on your vent to support that while you're at it.
> 
> ...



I've always referred bell hangers as van hangers. Not sure where the term came from, but that's what they're called in this part of Ma. While it does look like a bell. You rough in like I used to, I'd go through boxes of bell/van hangers. I used them all the time on tub/ shower valves, 2 each on hot and cold makes them rock solid. And I liked using the mickeys, I think the actual name are suspension clips.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Ya'll Yankees have some odd terms. I once had a Connecticut plumber working for me call a torpedo level a bubble stick, scaffolding he called staging. It was almost another language. Now I have a plumber from New York city working for me, I have no idea what he's saying.


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## Mr.Layhe (Jul 17, 2015)

plumbdrum said:


> I've always referred bell hangers as van hangers. Not sure where the term came from, but that's what they're called in this part of Ma. While it does look like a bell. You rough in like I used to, I'd go through boxes of bell/van hangers. I used them all the time on tub/ shower valves, 2 each on hot and cold makes them rock solid. And I liked using the mickeys, I think the actual name are suspension clips.


I'll have to look those up!


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## Mr.Layhe (Jul 17, 2015)

dhal22 said:


> Ya'll Yankees have some odd terms. I once had a Connecticut plumber working for me call a torpedo level a bubble stick, scaffolding he called staging. It was almost another language. Now I have a plumber from New York city working for me, I have no idea what he's saying.


Haha. I'm having to Google, and try and figure out what each term means!

Although, I'm sure I could confuse a few of you guys with the terms we use up in Canada.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Still no intro...:furious:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Still no intro...:furious:



Ahhh, the good ole days. When MTV had music videos and the PZ community DEMANDED an intro.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Mr.Layhe said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> First off this is my first post. Been doing a bit of reading on here, and I'm pretty impressed with the amount of quality threads I've come across....
> 
> ....But just trying to see if anyone has any input.


Hey rook, were you impressed with the Intro Section?

That'z my input.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

plumbdrum said:


> I've always referred bell hangers as van hangers. Not sure where the term came from, but that's what they're called in this part of Ma. While it does look like a bell. You rough in like I used to, I'd go through boxes of bell/van hangers. I used them all the time on tub/ shower valves, 2 each on hot and cold makes them rock solid. And I liked using the mickeys, I think the actual name are suspension clips.


Same thing, different name. It's just like how some people call copper strap hangers Milford hangers or Natick hangers. I've heard bell and van hangers around here.
You are right about the Mickey's, the real name is suspension hangers/clips. If I'm running in metal studs I'll use the isolators because they're faster but when I'm done I'll go back and hit the pipe. If it moves or makes noise I'll swap a few out for the suspension clips until it's solid. I hate going to a finish and having pipes banging around inside the wall.


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Has the absence of Rj made yall soft?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

chonkie said:


> Has the absence of Rj made yall soft?



Any word on where he's been or if he's okay?


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Mr.Layhe said:


> Yeah, I always feel like a tool using a hole saw all the time. Especially when they're all dull! Hah
> 
> What do you guys use so the copper doesn't touch steel studs?



Sioux chief stud bushings made for stud punch.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Mr.Layhe said:


> So say you had 100ft of mains. You'd, lay out your main on the floor, eyeball where your branches and offsets would be and cut the full lengths? And then continue on?



Don't eye ball anything. Lay your work out on the floor with thought then you can use a laser to transfer hangers to the deck then you can cut offsets and pipe to fit.


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## Mykeeb33 (Mar 6, 2015)

Get one solid point to start. Drop that point down to the floor. Snap out the main. Laser up to all the sleeves above. Transfer those marks to floor. Figure out your branch lines, always keeping hanger placement in mind. You can snap lines that will help you lay out the hangers . Measure, cut, install, test, go to the next job! ........Oh, and 1-3/8" stud punch. That will fit the plastic isolation gismos for 1/2", 3/4", & 1" copper pipe.


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## Nathan901 (Feb 11, 2012)

plumberkc said:


> I just have one question... Is that you talking Mr Lahey, or is it the liquor?


It warms my heart to see a trailer park boys reference. Hahaha


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> Any word on where he's been or if he's okay?














Still in Washington DC holding his rainbow ***.

I meant, 'rainbow flag'....:laughing:


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