# Local 130 employment



## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

The UA just had their convention in Vegas. I heard from someone who went that Local 130 (Chicago) has 3000 active members, very few apprentices, because jobs are so scarce. 500 members have city jobs, are inspectors or hospitals/university/state gigs. 900 members are working out of the hall, that leaves 1600 out of work. 
The contractors are screaming for apprentices because with the wage and benefit package, it's mighty hard to compete with open shops unless there are apprentices, i.e. cheap labor to lower the man hour cost. 
For all the bashers out there, union construction jobs aren't what you think. There's usually a rocket up your arse, and if you don't produce, you're gone. The state/hospital gigs are usually pretty much what you think, lot's of sitting and reading the paper and a little work to pass the time, but for the vast majority of us, it's a--holes and elbows.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

422 plumber said:


> The UA just had their convention in Vegas. I heard from someone who went that Local 130 (Chicago) has 3000 active members, very few apprentices, because jobs are so scarce. 500 members have city jobs, are inspectors or hospitals/university/state gigs. 900 members are working out of the hall, that leaves 1600 out of work.
> The contractors are screaming for apprentices because with the wage and benefit package, it's mighty hard to compete with open shops unless there are apprentices, i.e. cheap labor to lower the man hour cost.
> For all the bashers out there, union construction jobs aren't what you think. There's usually a rocket up your arse, and if you don't produce, you're gone. The state/hospital gigs are usually pretty much what you think, lot's of sitting and reading the paper and a little work to pass the time, but for the vast majority of us, it's a--holes and elbows.


Thank you. Fantastic!


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

422 plumber said:


> The UA just had their convention in Vegas. I heard from someone who went that Local 130 (Chicago) has 3000 active members, very few apprentices, because jobs are so scarce. 500 members have city jobs, are inspectors or hospitals/university/state gigs. 900 members are working out of the hall, that leaves 1600 out of work.
> The contractors are screaming for apprentices because with the wage and benefit package, it's mighty hard to compete with open shops unless there are apprentices, i.e. cheap labor to lower the man hour cost.
> For all the bashers out there, union construction jobs aren't what you think. There's usually a rocket up your arse, and if you don't produce, you're gone. The state/hospital gigs are usually pretty much what you think, lot's of sitting and reading the paper and a little work to pass the time, but for the vast majority of us, it's a--holes and elbows.


BOOM!!

Viva La Revolution!!


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

My foreman went to Vegas, he said it was pretty cool.

He commented about the Canadians being crazy..

I told him "Yeah, I have a buddy who lives in Canada and he talks funny... Always saying EH and ABOOT" 

Crazy Canadians...

Lol


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

I'm not changing the sig, swamp dweller. Get over it!

:laughing:


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Lol


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> Lol


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4OOfJ9BUXU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

So why even try?

:laughing:


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

MC Hammer huh?

Bet you have some parachute pants as well..


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> MC Hammer huh?
> 
> Bet you have some parachute pants as well..


You have to admit...

That's a sweet f-ing video!

:laughing:


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

No doubt, he could break it down


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> No doubt, he could break it down


You're F-ing high! It's shark week!


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Wrong thread playa!

Lol


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## jc60618 (Jan 24, 2010)

Local 130 went three years without taking an apprentice class. However recently they took a handful of metal trade guys and made them first year apprentices.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I think that a couple of you should form a local 1 derailment hall.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I know just enough about union shops to really get myself in hot water so here goes....

At what point do unions reevaluate the labor rate to be in line with market forces? I know that sticking to your guns is a must-have skill at union shops but at some point don't they have to smell the coffee burning?

From a business standpoint, it seems there would be a point when you have to become more competitive. Labor cost is the single highest expense in most Dis-Organized plumbing businesses, so I assume the same is the case for Organized shops as well. For the best balance of profit and the employee retention via wages and benefits, labor costs can be adjusted almost instantly. Following the trends of market forces, labor expenses go up in fat times and down in lean times

Does the fact that Organized wages and benefits seem to be set in stone, contribute to the thousand's of bench dwellers?

I am asking for a better understanding so don't interpret this as a "bash-the-Organized" question. Just help me have a better understanding of what appears to be a flawed business principle in our free market system.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> I know just enough about union shops to really get myself in hot water so here goes....
> 
> At what point do unions reevaluate the labor rate to be in line with market forces? I know that sticking to your guns is a must-have skill at union shops but at some point don't they have to smell the coffee burning?
> 
> ...


It depends on where it's located, I can only speak for where I am at.

Here we have a sea of un organized contractors, matter of fact there are only two of us in town.

The non union guys have the res market wrapped up, service and new construction. 

In the commercial setting, hospitals/industrial plants/ schools we have the upper hand. Mainly because the non union guys don't have the skill set or want to work on the larger mechanical jobs in town.

My company does no res what so ever. The owners are interested in the heavy commercial work, mainly in the hospital sector.

When they walk into a bid, it's generally against the other Union contractor in town or an out of town Union contractor to the west of us with about an hour drive. So the playing field is some what level in that market.

Then it gets into an operating cost battle, my company has a very low overhead from what I can see, and they are landing large jobs at will these days.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

SlickRick said:


> I think that a couple of you should form a local 1 derailment hall.


Sorry Rick, got a little crazy last night. 

My bad...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> ...Here we have a sea of un organized contractors, matter of fact there are only two of us in town.
> 
> The non union guys have the res market wrapped up, service and new construction....


I think that is the case here too.

So why can the Dis-Organized compete and make a living but the Organized can't? Wouldn't that be better than being benched?


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> Sorry Rick, got a little crazy last night.
> 
> My bad...


Me too. I'll try to keep focused...


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> I think that is the case here too.
> 
> So why can the Dis-Organized compete and make a living but the Organized can't? Wouldn't that be better than being benched?


If I my weigh in here...

The UA (in Canada anyway) is taking steps to recover market share. Changes are definitely needed, but attacking our wages directly is considered a last resort. Project labour agreements are becoming more commonplace. These may include working slightly longer hours for straight time, or sacrificing some of our overtime wages.

If our wages get slashed, the non-union sector will follow suit and slash further.

Nobody wins in a race to the bottom.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> So why can the Dis-Organized compete and make a living.......


They can. I'm a two- man organized shop. I compete and make a living.

Wages, are a big AND small piece of the puzzle all at the same time. If that makes any sense.


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

U666A said:


> If I my weigh in here...
> 
> The UA (in Canada anyway) is taking steps to recover market share. Changes are definitely needed, but attacking our wages directly is considered a last resort. Project labour agreements are becoming more commonplace. These may include working slightly longer hours for straight time, or sacrificing some of our overtime wages.
> 
> ...


True that on the west coast and the new wages package is being done up now getting almost a 2$ raise, that said there is a lot of work right now, we just brought on a few more guys here recently. 

That said at some point there had to be a balance point, the welders are alot more in demand the last few months with shut downs and mine work.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> I think that is the case here too.
> 
> So why can the Dis-Organized compete and make a living but the Organized can't? Wouldn't that be better than being benched?


We don't want the res market, just as the un organized here doesn't want the large commercial buildings.

As far as being benched, or local is small but we only have two plumbers on the books, everyone is either working with us or is traveling.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> We don't want the res market, just as the un organized here doesn't want the large commercial buildings.
> 
> As far as being benched, or local is small but we only have two plumbers on the books, everyone is either working with us or is traveling.


Don't kid yourself Chad, the UA strives for 100% market share. I believe we are sitting below 10% now... 

And just as much as we want their work, they want ours. It simply isn't often feasible for a non-union outfit to man up significantly for one project. It is hard to find skilled manpower for "a couple of months"... If they could, they'd take your job in a heartbeat...


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

U666A said:


> Don't kid yourself Chad, the UA strives for 100% market share. I believe we are sitting below 10% now...
> 
> And just as much as we want their work, they want ours. It simply isn't often feasible for a non-union outfit to man up significantly for one project. It is hard to find skilled manpower for "a couple of months"... If they could, they'd take your job in a heartbeat...


I wasn't meaning "WE" as a Union. Sorry for the mis understanding. 

I meant we as my company, they aren't concerned with going after the res market here. They can get low enough to compete with any of the unorganized they just don't have the desire to do so. 

To be honest, if they threw a couple houses in the mix we would be so strung out we would be begging people to come work with us. We are just that busy right now...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> ...they just don't have the desire to do so.


But don't you think the 1,600 fellas on the bench in the Chicago Local 130 have the desire?

I don't care where you went to school, that adds up to over 50% unemployment out of the 3,000 mentioned in the OP.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Several Organized members have mentioned that sometimes slackers will spend more time on the bench and suffer for their laziness and lack of ability. OK, fine.

But based on what I DO know of Organized Plumbers, I refuse to believe that 50% of Local 130 Plumbers are slackers.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> But don't you think the 1,600 fellas on the bench in Gardner, IL have the desire?
> 
> I don't care where you went to school, that adds up to over 50% unemployment out of the 3,000 mentioned in the OP.


Words are being taking out of my post and spun around.

I am speaking about the company that I work for not wanting to go after the res market in my area. It's not that they can't, they just don't want to, after all it's up to them to take their company in the way that they see fit and res isn't their direction.

I am sure that my brothers and sisters in Gardner, IL have the desire to go to work, but what I can't speak for is their market there, I know nothing about it. 

When you speak of lowering wages and total packages for organized contractors to stay competitive I can say this because I have seen it.

We gave the contractors a break years ago and they were certain to be able to land the work if we gave up some of our wages, we did and the work fell through. The ones that were still left working took a hell of a cut in pay. Others were layed off and hit the road. We have just now gotten back to where they once were and we are still one of the lowest payed tradesmen in the country. One things for sure, we aren't budging this time around and if that means sitting on the bench or traveling then so be it...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> Words are being taking out of my post and spun around....


Didn't intend to do that. Sorry if it came across that way. I'm referring to the stats in the OP. Your area is busy and may not have the need to stretch out into the residential market or service work but that doesn't sound like what's being reported from the 130.

Wages can't be the only difference between Organized and Dis-Organized shops. For there to be a 50% bench dweller rate, there has to be more to it than that.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> Words are being taking out of my post and spun around.
> 
> I am speaking about the company that I work for not wanting to go after the res market in my area. It's not that they can't, they just don't want to, after all it's up to them to take their company in the way that they see fit and res isn't their direction.
> 
> ...


Brilliant post Chad! That is the UA way!

Sometimes we have to sit, sometimes we have to travel. 

But the UA will afford me ample opportunity to feed my family!

I wouldn't give up what I have and what we have built for anything!

UA


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

U666A said:


> ...Sometimes we have to sit, sometimes we have to travel.
> 
> But the UA will afford me ample opportunity to feed my family!


I get that UA, I really do. That is the life that Gramps had and a good life it was. :thumbup:

But this was reported at an out of town convention. News like that does come from the platform in a "oh, by the way..." message. I would think it to be more a call to arms. 

Over stacking a job with apprentices to be competitive goes against the grain of everything I understand from a business and trade quality standpoint. That seems like the same Koolaid that Dis-Organized new construction residential shops drank decades ago.

I hate the thought of union trained tradesmen not working just as much as you. Hell, if I gotta go to work on Monday, so should they. :laughing:

How is getting extra apprentices on a job helping the 1600 cats on the sidelines?


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

Do your locals have rules on how many apprentices to each journeymen your allowed to have on site. I think I read we are allowed 4-1 or 5-1 or similar.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Greenguy said:


> Do your locals have rules on how many apprentices to each journeymen your allowed to have on site. I think I read we are allowed 4-1 or 5-1 or similar.


Our Local doesn't have a stipulation on that...

But our state does.. It's a one to one ratio. They have the power to fine the contractor if they are caught going over that quota.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> I get that UA, I really do. That is the life that Gramps had and a good life it was. :thumbup:
> 
> But this was reported at an out of town convention. News like that does come from the platform in a "oh, by the way..." message. I would think it to be more a call to arms.
> 
> ...


Those contractors are trying to work a loop hole to save money.

The Local as a whole has to decide to give up wages to help the contractor. It's not 100% up to the contractor on what they pay the hands they hire. If the contractor and local can't come to an agreement then it moves to a strike order. Of those 1,300 on the bench I guarantee that most won't give a dime to the contractor to help them land jobs if all they are wanting to do is hire apprentices...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> Those contractors are trying to work a loop hole to save money.
> 
> The Local as a whole has to decide to give up wages to help the contractor. It's not 100% up to the contractor on what they pay the hands they hire. If the contractor and local can't come to an agreement then it moves to a strike order. Of those 1,300 on the bench I guarantee that most won't give a dime to the contractor to help them land jobs if all they are wanting to do is hire apprentices...


I'm not suggesting anybody do anything to help the contractor but why the heck not if it gets them back on the payroll?. What I am suggesting is they should do it to help themselves. And I don't think it necessarily has to be wages. Aren't there other factors like the way OT is figured or mandated break times that affect job profitability?

For instance the FLSA mandates that all non-exempt hourly paid employees receive time and a half after 40 hours within a 7 day work week. Is that the way OT works for union workers or is it different?

Again, we're talking about 53% unemployment. Geez, the jobless rate inside the walls of San Quentin isn't that high. Something's gotta give.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Plumberman said:


> Words are being taking out of my post and spun around.
> 
> I am speaking about the company that I work for not wanting to go after the res market in my area. It's not that they can't, they just don't want to, after all it's up to them to take their company in the way that they see fit and res isn't their direction.
> 
> ...


I don't know why Gardner, IL. is being mentioned. I live there, 130 is the Chicago local.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Our apprentice ratio can be no lower than 1 for 1. It's not close to that. From what I know, our unemployment is so high because of the collapse of new construction. Local 422 controlled 90 percent of resi and about 100 percent of commercial. Very little service. I know 130 didn't have close to that market share. resi collapsed and killed our local. We got merged with Chicago and that added 500-600 unemployed to the books. At the first union meeting after the merger, it was stated, "if you aren't working, now is a good time to look at a different career path."


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

422 plumber said:


> I don't know why Gardner, IL. is being mentioned. I live there, 130 is the Chicago local.


Mr Biz said Gardner, I didn't look back at first post to see that it was Chicago. My mistake.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

In my local, 630, a small amount of money is subtracted from every working member's paycheck and put into a fund called 'market recovery.' Some of you may know what I'm talking about. Plumberman and U666A for example.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> Mr Biz said Gardner, I didn't look back at first post to see that it was Chicago. My mistake.


I was wrong. I cited the OP's location rather than the Chicago local. My bad.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> ...a small amount of money is subtracted from every working member's paycheck and put into a fund called 'market recovery.'...


They do the same thing at the hall in OKC. In the U.S. they have to be VERY careful what they call it and how it is administered because of federal laws prohibiting employee contributions toward unemployment compensation.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Yeah it's not called that here, but I know what you are speaking of.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> In my local, 630, a small amount of money is subtracted from every working member's paycheck and put into a fund called 'market recovery.' Some of you may know what I'm talking about. Plumberman and U666A for example.





plbgbiz said:


> They do the same thing at the hall in OKC. In the U.S. they have to be VERY careful what they call it and how it is administered because of federal laws prohibiting employee contributions toward unemployment compensation.


Yes TP, market recovery fund or stabilization "stab" fund... Ours is $1.50/hr.

What are some of the contributions from other members?

On second thought, don't answer that. We shouldn't talk about these things here in open forum.

If my brothers want to talk union business, feel free to PM me,

I will post no further to this particular subject.

Mr. Biz... I quoted you because I wanted to tell you that the fund has absolutely zero to do with un-employment. You are confusing this fund with something else.

Nothing personal John, I just do not wish to discuss how UA business is conducted.

Thanks guys :thumbup:

UA


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## bartnc37 (Feb 24, 2009)

Around here the boys call it the "lowball fund".


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

And as Plbg Biz so accurately points out, yes it is definitely illegal in the US to have employees contribute to any type of unemployment fund. The FUTA and SUTA contributions are by employer only. FUTA= federal unemployment tax and SUTA=state unemployment tax.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

422 plumber said:


> At the first union meeting after the merger, it was stated, "if you aren't working, now is a good time to look at a different career path."


They have been saying that for two years, some guys I know were able to latch on with 597, I chose to look elsewhere.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Oy vey...


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm out on that one as well U666A..


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Plumberman said:


> I'm out on that one as well U666A..


I got a railroad job, I'm still union, just a different one.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> I got a railroad job, I'm still union, just a different one.


For sure KTS, I knew you were still organized.

I was speaking about the deal Tommy was colorfully explaining...


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## bartnc37 (Feb 24, 2009)

Oh oh Tommyplumber i think you let the cat out of the bag. Better order some new tires for the rig, they might be a little low on air in the morning:whistling2:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

bartnc37 said:


> Oh oh Tommyplumber i think you let the cat out of the bag. Better order some new tires for the rig, they might be a little low on air in the morning:whistling2:


 



How's that? Better?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Sometimes I type before thinking...:blink: good thing we have the 'edit' button...:laughing:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

U666A said:


> ...Mr. Biz... I quoted you because I wanted to tell you that the fund has absolutely zero to do with un-employment. You are confusing this fund with something else.
> 
> Nothing personal John, I just do not wish to discuss how UA business is conducted....


Thanks for the clarification UA. Apparently it's two completely different things.

I wasn't really intending to get TOO deep into the inner sanctum of union methodology. I know you guys play it close to the vest and there's nothing wrong with that in my book.

I'm just really struggling with the numbers posted in the OP. I have to say this and hopefully it doesn't come across wrong on the keyboard because you know I have great respect for my Organized brethren, however.....

From the outside looking in, the attitude appears to be that either the companies, the local, and/or the workers would let half their guys be un-employed rather than pursue ALL options in fair competition.

I'm certainly not talking about a race to the bottom on wages. There will always be slugs that we all have to deal with but there are plenty of Dis-Organized JP's that wouldn't join their local because they don't want a pay cut. (again, not meaning to insult, it's just the fact of the numbers) Even if we took the slugs out of the mix, I doubt that 53% of Dis-Organized plumbers in that geographical area are on the curb (Dis-Organized version of the bench:laughing.

Again, I'm not asking about privileged union business info, just an understanding of the mess those guys seem to be stuck in.

Here's my point, with Organized training and skills, there should be absolutely no reason they can't compete with Dis-Organized shops. Any one of those 1600 fellas on the bench in Chicago might be able to out plumb 5 of their non-union counter parts. Yet there they sit. That should be embarrassing to ALL of us as tradesmen. I want to see the best Plumbing Professionals on the job, whether they be Union affiliated or strictly Dis-Organized. 

53% unemployment rate? For the sake of the trade as a whole, there has to be an improvement to that number.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Hey, no harm no foul.

But I respectfully request that this conversation go no further.

This is information that only my brothers and sisters should be privy to.

At the beginning of every monthly union meeting (and I have NEVER missed one), the president asks that anyone who is not directly affiliated with local 666, please leave the hall so that UA business not fall on the ears of non UA persons.

There's things that you just don't f-ing say!
I can't believe I'm making this f-ing post!

Smarten up and respect the F-ing charter.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

That was not directed at you John, your post slipped in while I was typing mine.

As far as the rest goes...

No Comment.


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## bartnc37 (Feb 24, 2009)

The very word 'secrecy' is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings. 
John F. Kennedy


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

I'm having recording secretary flashbacks....Good ones....


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> I'm out on that one as well U666A..


 




I didn't catch your drift when you first posted, I'm hip now...I edited my post....


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

It's all good UA. We're all friends here as far as I'm concerned.

Meh, if nobody wants to engage my curiosity that's cool. I'm sure I'll find something else to ramble on about. After all, I'm not the one that brought it up. I just hope somebody is rethinking their plan because the highest jobless rates in the U.S. shouldn't include ANY Professional Plumbers.

BTW: You really gotta get over that secrecy stuff. You sound like a bunch of Free Masons. :laughing::jester:

Peace to all my Organized brethren. Let's have some coffee now.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Coffee it is!

And our secret handshake is way cooler than the bloody shriners'

:laughing:


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

With all the taxes added in, it costs about $63.25 an hour for a union plumber. That includes full benefits. 

Add in profit, etc and the owner need to charge a minimum of $105.00, which is dead on normal.

If a person works for a normal company doing a job that pays well and has benes, it would be almost the same cost to the employer.

Ever notice the big union shops never quit the union? Ever wonder why? We got big shops here employing 50-100 union plumbers quarter after quarter for decades.


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

Plumber said:


> With all the taxes added in, it costs about $63.25 an hour for a union plumber. That includes full benefits.
> 
> Add in profit, etc and the owner need to charge a minimum of $105.00, which is dead on normal.
> 
> ...


Wow that's pricey I know a lot of non union guys out here charge 70-90 for a service tech, several companies will also have a range of pricing per hour depending on the amount of work from each account, same as the wholesalers do. 

That said every area will be a little different but 63.25 sounds overly pricey. Some of the UA locals have all of their wage and costing information online, but not open to the public unless you do a google search.


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