# Bad Pex--need advice



## davy a. (Jul 9, 2010)

has anyone had this problem? the pex co. is Lubrizol, flex 3 flowgard (not cpvc), dated Nov. 07, I just discovered parts of the 1/2" tubing is defective--thinner wall thickness--one end may be fine, the brass insert ftg. fits snugly, but another section is noticeably thinner, the same ftg. loosey-goosey. Unfortunately, I've done several repipes in c. fla w/ this same batch; no blow offs yet, but became aware of it because several Insurance Co's are refusing to insure homes w/ pex. I thought it was due to ignorant confusion w/ Pb, until one agent mentioned reason was blow-offs. Please don't tell me about copper--we can't use copper in Fl. because of electrolosis(sp), and cpvc gets brittle esp on hot side, in about 3-6 yrs. snaps and cracks like old Pb. I need to know If the Manu. will pay for repiping the repipe? I'm state cert.Plbg.contractor,so please no snide remarks -- I'm not a rookie @ 60 yrs.old! Although I am a slow learner--used 400' before realizing the problem!


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Sounds like you're in a pickle.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

I live in South Fla. & we use copper all the time. I don't do much pex. Why can't you use copper? Unless it is going in really corrosive soil you should be able to use it. Maybe some of the pex gurus will come along later and give advice. We have some in the central Fla. area that love pex. They can better advise you.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Thw question you need to ask yourself is, will you enjoy sleeping with one open waiting for the phone to ring. The simple fact that YOU think the product is defective, at 60 years old should make the difficult decision to cut it all out and start over a little easier. If you wind up on the stand under oath and you have to admit you put in a bad product.......well, you'll deserve everything you get. At the very least call the manu and get something in writing that says the product is NOT defective. With your years in the biz, ya simply gotta know better...no?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

The fact that insurance companies won't insure homes with pex is a big red flag for me not to use pex. BTW my home was built in 1960 and I have copper; I guess it is original.


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## davy a. (Jul 9, 2010)

I've been in c. fl for35+ and have done countless "slab leaks" w/ copper eating up from inside out-although lightning is a contributor,the electrical activity in H2o,as well as chlorine causes electrolosis in as short a time as 2yrs4mos. fair guess that over 1/2 of Orlando has already been repiped. Those who only do new const. don't generally see the extent of the prob. that repair & service do. Since we do manifolds in the walls,half the leaks are in the ftgs.where the copper is thinned [email protected] hub. Starts w/ green spots showing up,next a white cap w/ adropplet on it. Cold inlet to W/H, stub out @ toilets,and main entrance valve area are usually the firstto go. My opinion only is that re-cycled copper is Purer than the old 60-80year stuff because the process electrolically removes the other metals that actually gave it strength.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

As a fellow plumber who has been working in central Florida for the past decade (including orlando), I can verify what you are saying about copper pipe failing is true (maybe not the causes though).

Give me a call, I wan't to know more about this defect.



davy a. said:


> I've been in c. fl for35+ and have done countless "slab leaks" w/ copper eating up from inside out-although lightning is a contributor,the electrical activity in H2o,as well as chlorine causes electrolosis in as short a time as 2yrs4mos. fair guess that over 1/2 of Orlando has already been repiped. Those who only do new const. don't generally see the extent of the prob. that repair & service do. Since we do manifolds in the walls,half the leaks are in the ftgs.where the copper is thinned [email protected] hub. Starts w/ green spots showing up,next a white cap w/ adropplet on it. Cold inlet to W/H, stub out @ toilets,and main entrance valve area are usually the firstto go. My opinion only is that re-cycled copper is Purer than the old 60-80year stuff because the process electrolically removes the other metals that actually gave it strength.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

even if your soil is corrosive you can surly find a way to protect COPPER from corrosion
pex is just cheaper thats why you use it


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

I think its sad that it takes insurance company's to regulate plumbing reg how can they supersede your code


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

davy a. said:


> has anyone had this problem? the pex co. is Lubrizol, flex 3 flowgard (not cpvc), dated Nov. 07, I just discovered parts of the 1/2" tubing is defective--thinner wall thickness--one end may be fine, the brass insert ftg. fits snugly, but another section is noticeably thinner, the same ftg. loosey-goosey. Unfortunately, I've done several repipes in c. fla w/ this same batch; no blow offs yet, but became aware of it because several Insurance Co's are refusing to insure homes w/ pex. I thought it was due to ignorant confusion w/ Pb, until one agent mentioned reason was blow-offs. Please don't tell me about copper--we can't use copper in Fl. because of electrolosis(sp), and cpvc gets brittle esp on hot side, in about 3-6 yrs. snaps and cracks like old Pb. I need to know If the Manu. will pay for repiping the repipe? I'm state cert.Plbg.contractor,so please no snide remarks -- I'm not a rookie @ 60 yrs.old! Although I am a slow learner--used 400' before realizing the problem!


Is the wall of the pex actually thinner? Or is the I.D. of the pex slightly bigger? I'm assuming you used the same brand fitting as they can sometime be bigger/smaller by a c-hair.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It's not caused by corrosive soils in our area. It's due to the high chlorine content combined with acid based flux on the insides of the pipe.

See here: http://www.plumbingzone.com/f21/copper-damage-oil-based-flux-high-res-5658/



BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> even if your soil is corrosive you can surly find a way to protect COPPER from corrosion
> pex is just cheaper thats why you use it


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It was nice chatting with you Davy. As I said, I think you have a manufacturing defect and it should be covered by the manufacturer. You would do well to go back out to the job and cut a few test sections out to make sure there were no other extrusion errors in the batch.



davy a. said:


> has anyone had this problem? the pex co. is Lubrizol, flex 3 flowgard (not cpvc), dated Nov. 07, I just discovered parts of the 1/2" tubing is defective--thinner wall thickness--one end may be fine, the brass insert ftg. fits snugly, but another section is noticeably thinner, the same ftg. loosey-goosey. Unfortunately, I've done several repipes in c. fla w/ this same batch; no blow offs yet, but became aware of it because several Insurance Co's are refusing to insure homes w/ pex. I thought it was due to ignorant confusion w/ Pb, until one agent mentioned reason was blow-offs. Please don't tell me about copper--we can't use copper in Fl. because of electrolosis(sp), and cpvc gets brittle esp on hot side, in about 3-6 yrs. snaps and cracks like old Pb. I need to know If the Manu. will pay for repiping the repipe? I'm state cert.Plbg.contractor,so please no snide remarks -- I'm not a rookie @ 60 yrs.old! Although I am a slow learner--used 400' before realizing the problem!


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

thanks pro but arent many pool heaters made with copper heat exchangers or are you saying that flux+chlorine = corrosion ?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Yes



BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> thanks pro but arent many pool heaters made with copper heat exchangers or are you saying that flux+chlorine = corrosion ?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

That is why we almost never have leaks on copper fixture supply tubes or mobile homes done all flare fittings or shower risers or compression water heater flex tubes. It's ALWAYS on soldered systems.

I would say that 95% of the copper leaks I've done in central Florida were due to flux damage.

Pictures don't lie:

















http://www.plumbingzone.com/attachm...-flux-high-res-2009_1018plumbing0001small.jpg


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

those are really persuasive pics you posted 

New York City is adding food grade phosphoric acid to the water supply and maintaining a targeted pH to keep lead from dissolving in the water. The pH is adjusted to reduce the corrosivity of the water. *The phosphoric acid creates a protective film on pipes that reduces the release of metals such as lead from household plumbing. 
*I wonder if that would inhibit the pitting that you see in FLA.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Protech said:


> It's not caused by corrosive soils in our area. It's due to the high chlorine content combined with acid based flux on the insides of the pipe.
> 
> See here: http://www.plumbingzone.com/f21/copper-damage-oil-based-flux-high-res-5658/


Odd Every home I been in here in Illinois is plumbed in copper, we chlorinate our water, and we use acid base flux. I hardly see any copper leaks. The leaks I do see are due to improper installs. Why not use water soluble flux this way you can flush out the flux. Or use liquid flux, liquid flux does not burn like the water soluble fluxes. http://www.rectorseal.com/index.php?site_id=1&product_id=246


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*Insurance Companies???*

I would like to hear more about the insurance companies that will not insure pex pipe....

that is all fresh news to me.... are they targeting certain brands of pex or every brand on the market????

which companies ???


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

do you guys have a little slime inside your copper ?


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Protech said:


> That is why we almost never have leaks on copper fixture supply tubes or mobile homes done all flare fittings or shower risers or compression water heater flex tubes. It's ALWAYS on soldered systems.
> 
> I would say that 95% of the copper leaks I've done in central Florida were due to flux damage.
> 
> Pictures don't lie:


This picture above looks almost like hydraulic jump. The first poster mentioned that the service entrance area is the first to go.
How many plumbers actually ream copper cuts properly. 

The jump across that ridge [where the jump hits the wall of the copper] will take out copper in 5-8 years .


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I ran into one that wouldn't insure pex, of any brand. I actually called them and asked why. They said they have had massive failures. I asked what brand and where, and they said they didn't know the specifics; they just won't cover a house with pex of ANY kind.

I told them they might want to reconsider that policy if they plan on doing any business in central Florida.



Master Mark said:


> I would like to hear more about the insurance companies that will not insure pex pipe....
> 
> that is all fresh news to me.... are they targeting certain brands of pex or every brand on the market????
> 
> which companies ???


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Incorrect.

What ridge are you referring too?

I think by "hydraulic jump" you are talking about erosion-corrosion. Neither of those samples failed due to EC. EC does not look anything like that. 

This topic has been discussed before several times.



PLUMBER_BILL said:


> This picture above looks almost like hydraulic jump. The first poster mentioned that the service entrance area is the first to go.
> How many plumbers actually ream copper cuts properly.
> 
> The jump across that ridge [where the jump hits the wall of the copper] will take out copper in 5-8 years .


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Sometimes, yes.



BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> do you guys have a little slime inside your copper ?


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

I Agree EC. looks different


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Is the PH in the mid 8s with the chlorine PPM at 3.5-4?

That's usually how it is here when I test the water at failing systems.



SewerRatz said:


> Odd Every home I been in here in Illinois is plumbed in copper, we chlorinate our water, and we use acid base flux. I hardly see any copper leaks. The leaks I do see are due to improper installs. Why not use water soluble flux this way you can flush out the flux. Or use liquid flux, liquid flux does not burn like the water soluble fluxes. http://www.rectorseal.com/index.php?site_id=1&product_id=246


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Protech said:


> Is the PH in the mid 8s with the chlorine PPM at 3.5-4?
> 
> That's usually how it is here when I test the water at failing systems.


 I will do a test on my water system whenI get back home and post the #'s.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

FWIW, I'm in Mass, I uses to test my water frequently for my fish tank and it always was in the 7-7.4 ph range. Almost everyone uses acid based flux here, they don't even sell water based at some of our supply houses. 

Copper pin holes here are almost non existent in type L copper. Type M usually will go about 40-60 years before pin holes show up. I would guess about 50% of the plumbers here ream their copper pipes. Our average water pressure is 80-100 psi.

I like pex and use it on a regular basis. It depends on the situation as to what type of pipe (copper or pex) I'll use. 

IMO it's mostly Florida's water, possibly in conjunction with acid flux, that's causing their problems. With quality water I don't think you will have problems, regardless of the flux you use.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> thanks pro but arent many pool heaters made with copper heat exchangers or are you saying that flux+chlorine = corrosion ?


A lot of the better ones don't...

They use corrosion resistant alloys instead...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

pauliplumber said:


> IMO it's mostly Florida's water, possibly in conjunction with acid flux, that's causing their problems. With quality water I don't think you will have problems, regardless of the flux you use.


I'll agree they be drinking some foul swill down there...:whistling2:


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Roughly ten or more years ago we had an epidemic of pinhole leaks in Sarasota, Florida. There are many causes for the pinhole leaks. Plumber error accounts for the majority of failures. Most of the pinhole leaks are on the cold side within 5 feet of a soldered joint. Acid based flux and no reaming of the pipe creating friction. Our sand has shell, pebbles, rocks, plus sand grit creating pinholes from vibration. Next problem are the concrete heads laying wire or rebar on top of the pipe. Short risers for hose bibbs and faucets in block walls unprotected are also a huge problem. The water is highly corrosive and when they finally started to add chloramines to the water it stopped the epidemic for some reason here in Sarasota. We use type L copper piping and that is code.
Re=pipes here are done in pex and cpvc few are done in copper anymore due to time and expense. Have not heard about insurance companies not insuring pex.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Up here in Northern Ontario ..... our copper last well over 60 years... that are supplied with city water.... this water is treated...

They only problem we have is copper that is on a well system. The drilled wells up here have a very high mineral content and it seems to pit the the copper.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It stopped because (as I've said several times and posted pictures) the high chlorine, high PH and acidic flux all react and cause the pitting. That is why you typically see pin holes near soldered joints. The flux runs down the inside of the pipes during soldering and stays there causing the corrosion. That is also why you see more leaks on the cold side than the hot side. The hot side has less chlorine and minerals due to the reaction with the anode and precipitation when the water is heated in the tank.

Again, IT'S THE FLUX REACTING WITH THE CHLORINE.

Let me ask you this, how many pin holes do you repair on well systems in this area? Slim to none right? There is a reason. How many pin holes do you repair on compression or flared copper systems? 

You stopped getting so many pinholes because the chlorine was removed and replaced by the chloramines.



Richard Hilliar said:


> Roughly ten or more years ago we had an epidemic of pinhole leaks in Sarasota, Florida. There are many causes for the pinhole leaks. Plumber error accounts for the majority of failures. Most of the pinhole leaks are on the cold side within 5 feet of a soldered joint. Acid based flux and no reaming of the pipe creating friction. Our sand has shell, pebbles, rocks, plus sand grit creating pinholes from vibration. Next problem are the concrete heads laying wire or rebar on top of the pipe. Short risers for hose bibbs and faucets in block walls unprotected are also a huge problem. The water is highly corrosive and *when they finally started to add chloramines to the water it stopped the epidemic for some reason here in Sarasota*. We use type L copper piping and that is code.
> Re=pipes here are done in pex and cpvc few are done in copper anymore due to time and expense. Have not heard about insurance companies not insuring pex.


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## domd (Jul 11, 2010)

*Gentlemen...*

I am with the manufacturer of the PEX that the original poster had an issue with. Davy A - please contact me separately to discuss the specific issue, and it will be resolved appropriately. Or, you can call our customer service department at 888-234-2436, Extension 447-7393.

For everyone who has posted, I also would like to bring to your attention a product introduced in 2007 called FlowGuard Bendable. It is a coiled CPVC pipe with an aluminum inner layer, designed for underslab applications. It is similar to soft copper in how it lays out and how tough it is, and has all of the advantages of chlorine resistance and corrosion resistance that CPVC brings as well. If you would like to learn more please visit www.flowguardbendable.com and contact us for a sample.

Sincerely,
Dom


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Yeah, I've had a few issues I like to discuss :laughing:










































































Which one do you want to discuss first?
:whistling2:









domd said:


> I am with the manufacturer of the PEX that the original poster had an issue with. Davy A - please contact me separately to discuss the specific issue, and it will be resolved appropriately. Or, you can call our customer service department at 888-234-2436, Extension 447-7393.
> 
> For everyone who has posted, I also would like to bring to your attention a product introduced in 2007 called FlowGuard Bendable. It is a coiled CPVC pipe with an aluminum inner layer, designed for underslab applications. It is similar to soft copper in how it lays out and how tough it is, and has all of the advantages of chlorine resistance and corrosion resistance that CPVC brings as well. If you would like to learn more please visit www.flowguardbendable.com and contact us for a sample.
> 
> ...


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Redwood said:


> A lot of the better ones don't...
> 
> They use corrosion resistant alloys instead...



My point was more that copper & chlorine in and of themselves aren't really an issue


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I'm not so sure about that(you may be right on that though). Go drop a piece of copper in highly chlorinated water (like 10 PPM) and come back in a month. There won’t be much left. I do think that most potable water supplies don't have enough chlorine in them to corrode copper pipes away in short periods of time (assuming no other degrading factors are present).

Here in Florida, it is not uncommon to find water with 3-4 PPM chlorine. At those sustained levels and at high PH, coupled with constant "re-supply" of chemicals under flow, I believe it IS harmful. Even so, without the presence of a catalyst like the flux, it would still take a minimum of 15-20 years for a system to fail from water quality alone. It's the flux that seems to really set the reaction (that causes the observed pitting) off.

I wish I had the funds and access to a decent lab to find the actual mechanism of action. If the reaction could be understood a chemical solution could be the answer.........but then I wouldn't have any repipes to do......



BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> My point was more that copper & chlorine in and of themselves aren't really an issue


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

good luck with the lab " The Global PEX vs COPPER Center For Research "


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