# Question for the tankless experts?



## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

I have very little experience with tankless systems and have some questions. How effeicient are they as far as cost per year? I have installed a couple of heat pump WH and they are supposed to use in the $200 as far as electricity, but cost around $1600 not counting tax credits. Tankless WH are cheaper, but are they better for your average house? Also, what about scale, do you need to use a softener with one?
Last question, is there anything online or, elsewhere that I can use to learn some dignostics and general maintenance?
Thanks


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

all this has already been discussed. please do a search, I ain't retypin it. Maybe the new non plumber that hasn't been banned yet will be so nice to reply to you.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

don't really want his 2 cents


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## breid1903 (Feb 8, 2009)

u s e s e a r c h. o r. u s e g o o g l e. breid.............:rockon:


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Very nice girls

There is plenty to read about Tankless already
Start with online manuals
google Tankless 101, basic info there


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Not that I'm against heat pump heaters but......

Electricity is more likely to rise in cost verses natural gas in the long run.

Heat pump heaters are mechanically complex (but then again, so are gas tankless heaters to some extent). You also need an EPA refrigerant certification to open up the refrigerant circuit for repairs and you will need specialized HVAC tools.

Heat pump heaters also have a lower btu output than most gas tankless units.

If natural gas is not available in the HO's area, a heat pump could be a viable option.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

90% of the WH I install are electric, the only tankless I have installed -1 Tagaki for a radiant system, 1 Bosch, and a Rinnai. The Rinnai was a replacement for an outdoor tankless that someone installed indoors. The Bosch did not produce enough hot water all at once for the HO so installed a holding tank. The Tagaki was nice w/remote and been in for 4 years now and no problems. The reason why I was asking, my boss persuades against a tankless because of initial cost and "unreliable performance". He will usually suggest a marathon, or equivilant. These are alright, and energy efficient, but with our hard water problems, just not sure of the longevity. I plan on going on my own this summer after I am a Master and was hoping to be able to offer some things he won't.
The last guy that wanted a tankless, the boss persuaded him out of it. I was looking forward to the direct vent ease of install. He went with a standard gas that was a PITA w/ the b vent because of the chopped up roof and access. Anyway I would appreciate any opinions from anyone, and have been reading past threads. Google is good if you want to hear about how great one companies product is. It's not like Tagaki is going to tell you to buy a Rinnai for reliability.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

All right man....You are correct withg your concerns about hard water. 12 grains or more and you need to address the issue. For your state I believe duel resin tanks is the way to go, but I assume you can address it for your market. If you feed your heater hard water, it will let you know it doesn't like it...usually pretty soon (few years at best) and chances are you can simply flush it but a lot of damage will have been done....non repairable damage.

A properly working water treatment system is critical for a quality tankless system. Critical.

Recirc systems are not to be taken with the same mentality of a tanked heater. Short answer is the Metlund system. Look it up.

Don't .......let me say this another way, DON'T ASSume for one second that a DV is easy to do. None of it is easy. Once you have 30 or 50 under your belt you will start to develope ways that makes your life easier. Doing resi retrofits is not alwasy straight forward. If you are a good plumber, you will be better served in properly bidding jobs, versus the guy who just over pads for his inexperience. 

In either event, you need gas. You mentioned electric heaters.....ask Protec on those. I just think they are a bad idea, but that's my market.

I wasn't messing with you about doing the search. There is very valuable info that is all still current and would serve someone wanting to know more about the topic. May I suggest you take your advise from those who ACTUALLY install these things. Anyone can be book smart, but there are no short cuts to experience. No matter how smart one presents himself, getting your hands dirty / bloody and being critical of your own work will pay dividends (sp?). If you want some feedback on your work, just post some pics....you'll get the feedback all right.

Search the threads I have created and you're bound to see some stuff.

Does that help?


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

Appreciate the info, we do often install a recirc line, and for the people with the money to do it , I will come and tune up the WH. The recirc is good and people are satisfied with the hot water, just wondering of an added benefit to tankless. Typically in a new construction senario we will install a softener due to water hardness, but you have to understand, Arkansas is about 20 years behind the rest of the country in a lot of ways, except for the plumbing, elec., and hvac codes. Oh, and sorry for implying any of it is easy.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

12 Grains per gallon is pretty hard. Europe, Asia, and the like speak of hardness in grains per gallon. Where as we in the US tend to talk in Parts per Million. 12 grains per gallon hardness is over 205 parts per million in equivalent hardness.

So many confuse the two and when they hear their water is hard, such as 45, its in ppm which is only about 2.5 grains of hardness. Under most tankless softening requirements, however not excluded from service requirements.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

page 19:

http://noritz.com/u/installation_manual_n_0842mc_dv.pdf


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Perfect example, 3 grains per gallon requires minimal service, thats over 51 PPM, which is probably 1-2X the normal municipal water supply hardness. 
But if you were to ask them their hardness and they tell you 15-25 (PPM) that would sound hard when it is not.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*you all got it easy*

in this state we can run as hard as 30 grains, 
with plenty of lime in minerals included...

you all have it easy.


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