# Air gap



## arbeezplumbing

Can anybody please explain to me the reason why an air gap is not required on a dishwasher installation? I am a licensed plumbing contractor in California for 11 years now and I've been a plumber for 28 years; heres the jist;my technician states that all new dishwashers have them built in, how can that satisfy the requirement for a 1" separation above the flood rim of the fixture being served?


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## Gargalaxy

Air gap? Who need it....maybe the answer is on the intro section.


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## rjbphd

You measure it with a folding ruler or tape??


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## Plumbus

Have your technician read Section 807.4 of the California Plumbing Code.


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## Tommy plumber

Air break or air gap?


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## Plumber patt

Tommy plumber said:


> Air break or air gap?


Its definetly an Air gap....


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## Ncplumber84

That's what the dishwasher connector on a p trap is


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## Plumber patt

The air gap is built into the side of the dishwasher.


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## jmc12185

Some dishwashers have the built in and others do not. The ones that do not you either have to put that POS on the counter top or strap the discharge line about the flood level rim.


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## Plumber patt

you should always strap the discharge up to the bottom of the countertop regardless of air gap


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## jmc12185

It would not be necessary if the dishwasher has the loop affixed to the side. It couldn't hurt, it would just be redundant.


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## rjbphd

jmc12185 said:


> Some dishwashers have the built in and others do not. The ones that do not you either have to put that POS on the counter top or strap the discharge line about the flood level rim.


 Huh??? You Always strap the DW drain to the bottom of the top of floodrim regardless of with stinky pos air gap or not!


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## jmc12185

rjbphd said:


> Huh??? You Always strap the DW drain to the bottom of the top of floodrim regardless of with stinky pos air gap or not!


 Yes but without the POS air gap ( which I never ever use) , strapping the pipe above the floodrim will suffice as a proper air gap.


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## Plumber patt

jmc12185 said:


> Yes but without the POS air gap ( which I never ever use) , strapping the pipe above the floodrim will suffice as a proper air gap.


are you high?:stupid:


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## jmc12185

Plumber patt said:


> are you high?:stupid:


 So your saying strapping the line about the flood level is not an air gap?????


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## Plumber patt

jmc12185 said:


> So your saying strapping the line about the flood level is not an air gap?????


That is precisely what I am saying..


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## jmc12185

Plumber patt said:


> That is precisely what I am saying..


 Well, what your saying is wrong.


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## Plumber

Plumber patt said:


> are you high?:stupid:


What.

Hey, isn't there a poster here called Air Break or Air Gap?


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## Plumber patt

No you my friend, are wrong

1) An Air Gap has nothing to do with the drain. An Air BREAK is drain.
2) An Air gap is a physical air seperation between a water source. It is a form of backflow prevention to not allow contaminantes into the drinking supply. No direct connection.

How does strapping a drain hose to a counter top in any way create a seperation in the piping? 
It does not.

I rest my case.


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## Tommy plumber

Plumber said:


> What.
> 
> Hey, isn't there a poster here called Air Break or Air Gap?












Yes. Airgap. He used to be a moderator.


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## jmc12185

Plumber patt said:


> No you my friend, are wrong 1) An Air Gap has nothing to do with the drain. An Air BREAK is drain. 2) An Air gap is a physical air seperation between a water source. It is a form of backflow prevention to not allow contaminantes into the drinking supply. No direct connection. How does strapping a drain hose to a counter top in any way create a seperation in the piping? It does not. I rest my case.


 When installed properly, the air gap works as you described. Prevents drain water from the sink to backup into the dishwasher, possibly contaminating dishes.


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## Plumber patt

jmc12185 said:


> When installed properly, the air gap works as you described. Prevents drain water from the sink to backup into the dishwasher, possibly contaminating dishes.


No,
What you are trying to describe is an air BREAK.

Air Gap and Air Break are two different things.

Air Gap is for good water. ie. The distance between your facet and the flood level rim of the basin served.

Air Break is for bad water. ie. The distance the discharge must be over an indirect drain for an ice machine DRAIN.


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## jmc12185

Plumber patt said:


> The air gap is built into the side of the dishwasher.


 But you just called in an air gap a few posts back????


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## Plumber patt

jmc12185 said:


> But you just called in an air gap a few posts back????


Yes. 
The water supply from the hot connection under your sink is connected to the dishwasher. From there it travels to an Air Gap on the side of the dishwasher which then proceeds to fill the unit for cleaning.


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## plbgbiz

All this gap and break talk seems so harsh. I think we should compromise and call it an air space.


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## jmc12185

plbgbiz said:


> All this gap and break talk seems so harsh. I think we should compromise and call it an air space.


 I say we call it an air brap. Lol


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## Plumber patt

There is nothing to compromise?

There is a very large difference between the two.

If one is going to talk about them whether on this site or in the field to the customer, one should be educated.


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## jmc12185

Plumber patt said:


> There is nothing to compromise? There is a very large difference between the two. If one is going to talk about them whether on this site or in the field to the customer, one should be educated.


 Your absolutely right. But you don't need to thank me for educating you. It's fine.


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## jmc12185

Either way , do you really think a customer is going to pick up on whether you used the words air gap or air break correctly?? I'm happy if they know what a dishwasher is.


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## Plumber patt

You clearly still do not understand the difference


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## Plumber

Plumber patt said:


> ...
> 
> If one is going to talk about them whether on this site or in the field to the customer, one should be educated.


It is usually the customer that's educated.


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## plbgbiz

AirGap: Where Michael Jordan is selling clothes these days.

AirBreak: What you take when you have had too much air.


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## Tommy plumber

The drain loop on the side of the D/W is not necessary. Some guy just thought it is needed. I cut them off........:laughing:


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## jmc12185

Tomato, tomato.... Sounds better when you speak it though. Lol


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## plumbdrum

Are we seriously having this conversation? This is plumbing 101


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## GAN

Weeeelllll I will agree An *air break* is an indirect connection of a drain line to the drainage system where the drain line terminates below flood level. An *air* gap is an actual physical separation of the potable. and non- potable system by an airspace. Of course you won't get that in the picture below.......

A hose won't get you a true air break for a dishwasher, you need an approved fitting for that. Our state will allow for the dishwasher hose to go under the cabinet as high as possible for residential.


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## dclarke

We are on IPC here and it states in the 2015 code that you can strap the hose to the bottom of the cabinet as an air break.


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## Plumber patt

plumbdrum said:


> Are we seriously having this conversation? This is plumbing 101


THANK YOU!, its like pulling teeth sometimes...


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## Plumber patt

dclarke said:


> We are on IPC here and it states in the 2015 code that you can strap the hose to the bottom of the cabinet as an air break.


Its terrible terminology. It is not an air break by definition. An Air break requires to have a physical air space seperating the drains.


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## justme

:whistling2:


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## Plumber patt

justme said:


> :whistling2:


Still incorrect...


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## Plumber patt

GAN said:


> Weeeelllll I will agree An *air break* is an indirect connection of a drain line to the drainage system where the drain line terminates below flood level. An *air* gap is an actual physical separation of the potable. and non- potable system by an airspace. Of course you won't get that in the picture below.......
> 
> A hose won't get you a true air break for a dishwasher, you need an approved fitting for that. Our state will allow for the dishwasher hose to go under the cabinet as high as possible for residential.


Neither of those are Air Gaps. They are Air breaks...


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## Plumber patt

*air break*
In a drainage system, a piping arrangement in which a drain from an appliance, device, or fixture discharges into the open air and then into another fixture, receptacle, or interceptor; used to prevent back siphonage or backflow... This is drainage water...

*air gap*
the unobstructed vertical space between the water outlet and the flood level of a fixture... This is potable water..

Is anyone FINALLY getting this?

Plumbing 101...


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## justme

Plumber patt said:


> *air break*
> In a drainage system, a piping arrangement in which a drain from an appliance, device, or fixture discharges into the open air and then into another fixture, receptacle, or interceptor; used to prevent back siphonage or backflow... This is drainage water...
> 
> *air gap*
> the unobstructed vertical space between the water outlet and the flood level of a fixture... This is potable water..
> 
> Is anyone FINALLY getting this?
> 
> Plumbing 101...



Hey know it all YOU ARE WRONG, here is the definition directly out of the IPC genius . :laughing:

AIR GAP (Drainage System). The unobstructed vertical distance through the free atmosphere between the outlet of the waste pipe and the flood level rim of the receptacle into which
the waste pipe is discharging.


AIR GAP (Water Distribution System). The unobstructed
vertical distance through the free atmosphere between the lowest
opening from any pipe or faucet supplying water to a tank,
plumbing fixture or other device and the flood level rim of the
receptacle.


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## justme

Plumber patt said:


> *air break*
> In a drainage system, a piping arrangement in which a drain from an appliance, device, or fixture discharges into the open air and then into another fixture, receptacle, or interceptor; used to prevent back siphonage or backflow... This is drainage water...
> 
> *air gap*
> the unobstructed vertical space between the water outlet and the flood level of a fixture... This is potable water..
> 
> Is anyone FINALLY getting this?
> 
> Plumbing 101...


Crawl back under your damn rock , freaking trolls.


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## justme

Air gaps are used on waste and water genius, some rock is missing it's troll somewhere.


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## Flyout95

I think we use air gap generically at times. 

But I've never called anything an air break. But yes, air gap is unobstructed. Air break can be sunk into a funnel or receptacle.


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## Plumber patt

justme said:


> Air gaps are used on waste and water genius, some rock is missing it's troll somewhere.


Holy hell... Listen assclown

Canadian Plumbing Code

1.4.1.2
AIR BREAK: means the unobstructed vertical distance between the lowest point of an* indirectly connected waste pipe* and the flood level rim of the fixture into which it discharges

AIR GAP: means the unobstructed vertical distance through air between the lowest point of a *water supply outlet* and the flood level rim of the fixture or device into which the outlet discharges.


Suck it hack.


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## plumbdrum

Now I'll throw a curveball, most health departments require and air gap or air break on a commercial dishwasher drains .depending on the inspector, my code just says tied indirectly


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## plbgbiz

We should have stuck with Air Space. :laughing:


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## dclarke

Plumber patt said:


> Its terrible terminology. It is not an air break by definition. An Air break requires to have a physical air space seperating the drains.



While I do agree that it is not what I interpret an air break to be it states in 802.1.6 domestic dishwashing machines shall discharge indirectly through an air gap or air break into a waste receptor in accordance with section 802.2, or discharge into a wye branch fitting on the tailpiece of the kitchen sink or dishwasher connection of a food waste disposer. The waste line of a domestic dishwashing machine discharging into a kitchen sink tailpiece or food waste disposer shall connect to a deck-mounted air gap OR the waste line shall rise and be securely fastened to the underside of the sink rim or counter.


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## Tommy plumber

Listen up gentlemen; let's refrain from the personal attacks. It is against the PZ rules. Insults, personal attacks, etc. is the quickest way to get a thread closed.


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## justme

I just typed the truth he thinks that little old canadian code is the only code out there lol. The rock is still missing ya.


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## sparky

Plumber patt said:


> Neither of those are Air Gaps. They are Air breaks...


Wrong,the one on the right is in fact an AIRGAP


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## chonkie

Didn't we have this same discussion not too long ago when I posted my first rpz pics?


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## sparky

chonkie said:


> Didn't we have this same discussion not too long ago when I posted my first rpz pics?


Yep:laughing:::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## chonkie

For the past 8 years, I've had to put a check valve at the disposal inlet because nobody in a million dollar home wants to see an air whatever on their counter top because the finish never matches the faucet.


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## sparky

chonkie said:


> For the past 8 years, I've had to put a check valve at the disposal inlet because nobody in a million dollar home wants to see an air whatever on their counter top because the finish never matches the faucet.


What kind of a check valve is it???


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## chonkie

Just a simple swing type, that's the way we were told to do it. If that's a bad way, let me know.


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## chonkie

chonkie said:


> If that's a bad way, let me know.


Made me chuckle when I thought about this sentence. Sounds like I'm worried that nobody will say something if they think it's wrong.


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## rjbphd

chonkie said:


> For the past 8 years, I've had to put a check valve at the disposal inlet because nobody in a million dollar home wants to see an air whatever on their counter top because the finish never matches the faucet.


Not allowed....


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## plumbdrum

chonkie said:


> Just a simple swing type, that's the way we were told to do it. If that's a bad way, let me know.



It's bad


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## plumbdrum

You double checked it👍👍 DW already has a built in check. Return the other check and offer them " discount double check"


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## Letterrip

chonkie said:


> Just a simple swing type, that's the way we were told to do it. If that's a bad way, let me know.


Don't worry chonkie, this is PZ. Even if it's good, someone will tell you it's bad!! I would think that debris would quickly stop the check valve from closing properly fairly quickly, rendering the check valve useless. But honestly, most areas of the country allow strapping the the discharge pie to the underside of the countertop, and it seems to work just fine!!


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## GAN

We come from the land of the ice and snow,,,,,,,,,, where there's only one code doncha know........

I thought air brakes were on diesel trucks,,,,,,,,:lol: Look ma an official Ontario Air Brake manual...


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## Plumbus

Gentlemen, please reread the original post. The OP asked if an airgap fitting is required in the state of California. Per Section 807.4 of the California Plumbing Code, if his installation is to be inspected, he will be required to install a list air gap fitting attached to the discharge of a pumped discharge dishwasher or the inspector will turn down the installation. I assume your collective time is too valuable to be wasted in this off topic debate.


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## chonkie

We will fail if the check valve isn't installed. I've even talked to the inspector about it being double checked. This is how they want us to do it. I do still loop the d/w drain to the counter top before connecting to the check valve. The inspector said that he wanted a check valve to be placed where you could easily service it if it fails and if the factory one fails. I agree about the debris possibly not allowing it to close, but i gotta do what the inspector wants.


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## sparky

chonkie said:


> Just a simple swing type, that's the way we were told to do it. If that's a bad way, let me know.


I just never seen anyone do it this way,in ky if it is to be inspected you have to use the dishwasher AIRGAP fitting mounted to the sink or countertop,if not inspected,I always just loop the dw drain as high as possible and it works fine:thumbup:


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## dclarke

sparky said:


> I just never seen anyone do it this way,in ky if it is to be inspected you have to use the dishwasher AIRGAP fitting mounted to the sink or countertop,if not inspected,I always just loop the dw drain as high as possible and it works fine:thumbup:



If you have to do something a certain way to meet code for an inspection you should do it even if it's not inspected unless there's a real reason why you can't. That's the way I try to work at least even if I don't agree with the inspector.


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## plbgbiz

I'd like to see a pic of the check valve setup on a d.w. drain connected to a disposer.


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## chonkie

plbgbiz said:


> I'd like to see a pic of the check valve setup on a d.w. drain connected to a disposer.


...


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## chonkie

And here's one without a disposal.


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## Gruvplumbing

I've got to ask but why the plastic strainers?


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## plumbdrum

Looks like a whole bunch of leaks waiting to happen, no offense


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## chonkie

Gruvplumbing said:


> I've got to ask but why the plastic strainers?


Because that's what was given to me to install. I usually don't have a choice in materials. Also, these plastic strainers were a beige color to match the sink material color.


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## chonkie

plumbdrum said:


> Looks like a whole bunch of leaks waiting to happen, no offense


No offense taken here, i am not scared to post pics and learn if something is wrong or could be done better. I can take criticism. That's why I'm here, that and to help when I can. We are peers in the trade. I know it's nothing personal.


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## plumbdrum

chonkie said:


> No offense taken here, i am not scared to post pics and learn if something is wrong or could be done better. I can take criticism. That's why I'm here, that and to help when I can. We are peers in the trade. I know it's nothing personal.



Eliminate all those slip joints, make your own continuos waste with PVC, tailpiece right off the strainers,2 trap adapters(desanco) a 90, and a TY, with a p trap with C.O and a wye with ECO. They also make a glue on dishwasher wye. Also no need for the check, your AHJ seems clueless


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## chonkie

plumbdrum said:


> Eliminate all those slip joints, make your own continuos waste with PVC, tailpiece right off the strainers,2 trap adapters(desanco) a 90, and a TY, with a p trap with C.O and a wye with ECO. They also make a glue on dishwasher wye. Also no need for the check, your AHJ seems clueless


99% of our kitchen sinks we have to loop vent, and I put a clean out on both sides and we also put a cleanout on the foot vent that we usually run behind the fridge, unless it's some crazy fridge not easily moved. 

Unfortunately, my boss isn't the best at listening to me when i request better materials. I do agree that it would be of higher quality to not use tubular, but he doesn't charge enough to use better materials in an area where what he gives me will, in his mind, not make a difference. I talked to him about checking out the Schluter Kerdi shower system, but here I am still sloping my own concrete and laying liner, and I do some pretty big showers and I'm always doing them solo, which i prefer working solo. I do the highest quality work that I can with what i am provided. Gotta love custom new homes. I agree about the AHJ. Might start leaving them off and see if he even notices.


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## chonkie

Is it even worth trying to argue the lack of need of the check valve with the inspector? I was taught to just do what they say if you want to see green and not red.


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## plumbdrum

If hey can't show it in the code specifically then it's just his opinion, and he's not doing his job correctly.


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## chonkie

I am going to bring it up next time.


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## rjbphd

Plumbus said:


> Gentlemen, please reread the original post. The OP asked if an airgap fitting is required in the state of California. Per Section 807.4 of the California Plumbing Code, if his installation is to be inspected, he will be required to install a list air gap fitting attached to the discharge of a pumped discharge dishwasher or the inspector will turn down the installation. I assume your collective time is too valuable to be wasted in this off topic debate.


Leaded air gag not allowed in California


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## rjbphd

chonkie said:


> And here's one without a disposal.


Are you asking is this plumbing or electrical code??


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## Letterrip

plumbdrum said:


> Eliminate all those slip joints, make your own continuos waste with PVC, tailpiece right off the strainers,2 trap adapters(desanco) a 90, and a TY, with a p trap with C.O and a wye with ECO. They also make a glue on dishwasher wye. Also no need for the check, your AHJ seems clueless


I can honestly say that I have easily been under a thousand sinks in my lifetime with very similar setups to what chonkie showed. The VAST majority weren't leaking. The relatively few that had leaks were mostly caused by incorrect installation, or someone slamming heavy pots into the cabinet repeatedly. Tubular allows for easy disassembly when I have to snake out the line. I have absolutely zero problems with the tubular installation shown in his pics. Would be nice to see a better basket strainer, but that's about it for me.


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## plbgbiz

chonkie said:


> Is it even worth trying to argue the lack of need of the check valve with the inspector? I was taught to just do what they say if you want to see green and not red.


Those two pics are exactly what I thought you were talking about. Thanks for posting them so I could see it.

If this check valve floated to the top of my biotch list with an inspector, I'd just keep it to myself. If such a ticky-tack thing is a big deal to him, then me hoping for an intelligent outcome to the conversation is already a lost cause. Save calling out the AHJ for something that really matters. At the end of the day, this just isn't that important from my viewpoint.

Honestly as a service Plumber, I can see the reasoning behind it. If I assume ADW's have functioning check valves, I can also safely assume they never work. I cannot count the number of times I have see ADW's unused for a period of time and also have the discharge hose has fallen from its loop (or never had a loop). They always have horrible runoff in them from the disposer. A properly placed swing check "might" have prevented some of the nastiness. So even though I think overall it is a bad idea and a waste of fittings, I see no way to win the argument with an AHJ set on having them.

One question...

The second pic shows the check valve tilted forward. If you are putting them in, shouldn't they be level or tilted back a bit to keep it normally closed. It seems that would be better to prevent a seepage from the sink traveling back. Most waste water getting back to the ADW happens a little at a time, not as a sudden backup.

Either way, looks like clean work to me.


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## justme

chonkie said:


> Because that's what was given to me to install. I usually don't have a choice in materials. Also, these plastic strainers were a beige color to match the sink material color.


Haters are going to hate Chonkie. Looks good . What city you working in mostly?


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## plumbdrum

justme said:


> Haters are going to hate Chonkie. Looks good . What city you working in mostly?



It's not hating, it's critiquing, BIG difference


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## plbgbiz

plumbdrum said:


> It's not hating, it's critiquing, BIG difference


Depends on which end of the critiquing gun you're looking at. :laughing: :jester:


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## chonkie

rjbphd said:


> Leaded air gag not allowed in California


Why do you assume that
the check valve isn't LF?






rjbphd said:


> Are you asking is this plumbing or electrical code??


Neither, i was just showing someone that asked to see what I was talking about how I have to do something.


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## chonkie

plbgbiz said:


> One question...
> 
> The second pic shows the check valve tilted forward. If you are putting them in, shouldn't they be level or tilted back a bit to keep it normally closed. It seems that would be better to prevent a seepage from the sink traveling back. Most waste water getting back to the ADW happens a little at a time, not as a sudden backup.
> 
> Either way, looks like clean work to me.


That one pic without the disposal is probably the only kitchen sink that I haven't installed a disposal (they compost). All the ones i put on disposals i make sure they are level cross wise and i try to put it on the disposal so it will be tilted forward to keep it closed normally. I just didn't know how else to do it on the one without a disposal besides using the branch tailpiece. I realize that if i made my own continuous waste in that situation, i could have that check valve in a better position without the worry of I didnt want to have the check valve hanging off the tailpiece with more hose to possibly cause it to sag and pinch off the hose.


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## chonkie

justme said:


> Haters are going to hate Chonkie. Looks good . What city you working in mostly?


I don't take anything yall say about my work as hate. I take it as learning a new perspective on how or why something should or could be done different. I am usually out in the boonies north of 380, lots of acreage and honestly i sometimes don't know the "city" I'm in, most of these places don't even show up on gps. We do a lot of homes in an area called Timberlake, one is Mountain Springs, lot of rural areas.


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## sparky

rjbphd said:


> Leaded air gag not allowed in California


since its on a drain what would it matter???seems like it would only matter if in the potable water system seems to me????


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## chonkie

sparky said:


> since its on a drain what would it matter???seems like it would only matter if in the potable water system seems to me????


Contamination of the dishes in the d/w would be my reasoning.


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## sparky

chonkie said:


> Contamination of the dishes in the d/w would be my reasoning.


Only way that would happen is if something wasn't working properly,I mean that check valve would have to not be closing for any diluted leaded water to get back in the dishwasher,plus if it has a check valve on the dw it would have to fail at the same time as the swing check valve,almost impossible odds for that to happen!!


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## justme

chonkie said:


> Contamination of the dishes in the d/w would be my reasoning.


Pigs would fly before that happened. The amount of lead in the brass before the " big change" was so miniscule it's ridiculous .


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## chonkie

Maybe i should have used the proper word, exchange reasoning to guess


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## sparky

chonkie said:


> Maybe i should have used the proper word, exchange reasoning to guess


:yes::yes::yes::yes::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::thumbup::thumbup:


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## BumbleBee

Plumber patt said:


> No,
> What you are trying to describe is an air BREAK.
> 
> Air Gap and Air Break are two different things.
> 
> Air Gap is for good water. ie. The distance between your facet and the flood level rim of the basin served.
> 
> Air Break is for bad water. ie. The distance the discharge must be over an indirect drain for an ice machine DRAIN.



He's talking about an air break, but you can have a air gap on drain too. When you are discharging a commercial kitchen sink in a hub drain and you leave a air gap. That is considered an air gap.


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## Gruvplumbing

Chonkie. Just for the record I wasent hating when I asked about the plastic strainers. I have had to use them befor bc of the type of sink. But I bet them plastic strainers are easy to cut off when the time comes. Lol.


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## chonkie

Gruvplumbing said:


> Chonkie. Just for the record I wasent hating when I asked about the plastic strainers. I have had to use them befor bc of the type of sink. But I bet them plastic strainers are easy to cut off when the time comes. Lol.


I didn't take it in any way other than you were curious. I have no problem answering questions if I know the answer, or at least think I know. Thanks for the clarification anyways.


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## HonestPlumb

I agree with Plumber patt, it is always a good idea to strap the discharge as high as possible under the sink. Here the Air Gap that sits on the top of the sink is illegal now. To many failed and flooded.


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## jeffreyplumber

I too am from Ca with upc code . As the OP was asking Id like to know that if a dw has a check built in does that actualy take the place of the thingy on the counter top , the one Ive heard called an airgap? as for strapping the hose high against the counter . Thats great if your not using the device otherwise id say its unnessesary nothing wrong with it but a waste of time. Cant see how it would help when using a air gap.
Btw to chonkie. Im not crazy about the check valve and could argue against it . But If i amworking in a town I might explain my concern to inspector and if he still wants it that way then thats what Id do.


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## wyrickmech

jeffreyplumber said:


> I too am from Ca with upc code . As the OP was asking Id like to know that if a dw has a check built in does that actualy take the place of the thingy on the counter top , the one Ive heard called an airgap? as for strapping the hose high against the counter . Thats great if your not using the device otherwise id say its unnessesary nothing wrong with it but a waste of time. Cant see how it would help when using a air gap. Btw to chonkie. Im not crazy about the check valve and could argue against it . But If i amworking in a town I might explain my concern to inspector and if he still wants it that way then thats what Id do.


 Ok the (thingy) is a atmospheric vacuum breaker and acts as a airbreak. A check valve can stick and alow back siphonage a AVB is listed as the minimum protection against such conditions.


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## jeffreyplumber

wyrickmech said:


> Ok the (thingy) is a atmospheric vacuum breaker and acts as a airbreak. A check valve can stick and alow back siphonage a AVB is listed as the minimum protection against such conditions.


 I think we all know what the name is. And I am aware of the problem with the check valve as well. Ive been in this trade awhile at various capacitys. I have learned to choose my battles with an inspector. also codes vary. Ive never heard of a legal inspected on resedential tied directly to the garbage disposal. My understanding is the code dosent alow it regardless of the desighn of the dw . and that even if the manufacture dosent require it. Code still requires it. Just like with pvc and cpvc code required the use of primer even if the manufacture doesnt require it (this too may have changed and is an example only.
Yes a check valve can stick as well as a back flow valve can. I wouldnt like putting that check valve in dont like it at all but if it will shut the inspector up bottom line im putting it in


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## BOBBYTUCSON

Plumber patt said:


> No you my friend, are wrong
> 
> 1) An Air Gap has nothing to do with the drain. An Air BREAK is drain.
> 2) An Air gap is a physical air seperation between a water source. It is a form of backflow prevention to not allow contaminantes into the drinking supply. No direct connection.
> 
> How does strapping a drain hose to a counter top in any way create a seperation in the piping?
> It does not.
> 
> I rest my case.



This Guy has it right !


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## HonestPlumb

plumberpatt- you are correct with the term air break. Shows you how the memory fades as far as terminology sometimes.. In my area the inspectors will not allow the air break that sits on top of the sink what so ever. I agree with that because I have heard stories where they stuck open and flooded. Putting a check in would be like some customers where I live are on the low side of the sanitary sewer system and when we have torrential rains, their basements flood. So they want a check valve installed. How long before it is stuck open with TP ? Then how long before the stoppage ?


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## mtfallsmikey

Used to be, in the older BOCA codes


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## ToUtahNow

Under the Uniform Plumbing Code, which California uses:

807.4 No domestic dishwashing machine shall be
directly connected to a drainage system or food
waste disposer without the use of an approved
dishwasher airgap fitting on the discharge side of the
dishwashing machine. Listed airgaps shall be
installed with the flood-level (FL) marking at or
above the flood level of the sink or drainboard,
whichever is higher.

Plumbus had the correct answer way back at Post #4. All posts after that were fun but had little to do with the original question. If in fact the OP is a licensed C-36, he should fire his "tech" and then turn in his licence.

Mark


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## Johnny Canuck

Gap the tap break the trap


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## arbeezplumbing

Thanks for all your input; Hey Mark, don't you think a discussion about this with my "tech" warrants his dismissal to be a little extreme? And turn in my C-36? It was a discussion MAN! My tech is also a C-36 Contractor here but lives in an adjoining county where if you read the code book it states that "the local administrative authority has the ability to deviate from the code as they deem it necessary", meaning that he is correct in the county where he resides but it does not apply to the county where I have my business, and he does it the way I want it done here; he is free to do what ever he wants where he lives as it has no effect on me, my license or my company.

Thank you for your comments,
Richard L. Brown Jr.
Owner Arbeez Plumbing


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## ToUtahNow

arbeezplumbing said:


> Thanks for all your input; Hey Mark, don't you think a discussion about this with my "tech" warrants his dismissal to be a little extreme? And turn in my C-36? It was a discussion MAN! My tech is also a C-36 Contractor here but lives in an adjoining county where if you read the code book it states that "the local administrative authority has the ability to deviate from the code as they deem it necessary", meaning that he is correct in the county where he resides but it does not apply to the county where I have my business, and he does it the way I want it done here; he is free to do what ever he wants where he lives as it has no effect on me, my license or my company.
> 
> Thank you for your comments,
> Richard L. Brown Jr.
> Owner Arbeez Plumbing


Perhaps I was a little rough on you. However, the fact that you had to come on to a forum with professional plumbers to ask a first year apprentice question is some what troubling. You are new to the forum an I have no idea what you abilities are. The section of the code you are quoting is a generic phrase which has little to nothing to do with the facts you listed. If the dishwasher was a high-end European model and it's listing says it does not needs an airgap you would have a better argument. However, your question referenced "a dishwasher installation".

As an expert witness for plumbing and mechanical related litigation, we see that phrase on occasion. It has to be backed up with something more than the inspector said so. The duty is on the contractor to know the code not the inspector. The inspectors are just babysitters. In over 1,000 cases in the last 27 years I am only aware of one occasion with IAPMO and one case with a building department where they paid damages. If you are going to use that argument it had better be on their stationary.


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## GAN

Yep, not as they deem necessary. Deviations from the regulated State Code, must be adopted. Now the AHJ may have their "interpretation" of the code and unless it is a blatant violation call it that way. If the contractor deems the AHJ incorrect they may file suit (in Illinois our State Department Of Public Health Plumbing Division) with the State and ask them to decide or interpret, which would then be law, unless the modifications have been codified, approved by the State & then adopted by the Local AHJ. 

I disagree that an inspector is a _*"baby sitter"*_ and take a certain amount of resentment for that term, the Inspector is the enforcement arm, so they should know the code (generally, but inspectors that tell you they do not make a mistake is lying).

In my "inspections" I have seen contractors blatantly violate the plumbing code, and what I hear is "well the blue prints had it like this" and we knew you would catch it and write it up. So rather than argue with the GC and have the drawings changed they went along so they could do a change order. Well in Illinois it is the duty of the plumbing contractor to install per the code or refuse to to do the installation & the duty of the inspector to verify the installation is per code. Yes in litigation you will hardly ever see a County, local AHJ or coding agency ever be held liable and forced to pay in some way. It will always be the plumbing contractor, GC, etc.

2013 California Plumbing Code California Code of Regulations Title 24, Part 5 California Building Standards Commission Based on 2012 Uniform Plumbing Code 

*A city, county or city and county may establish more restrictive building standards reasonably necessary because of local climatic, geological or topographical conditions. Findings of the local condition(s) and the adopted local building standard(s) must be filed with the California Building Standards Commission to become effective and may not be effective sooner than the effective date of this edition of California Building Standards Code.
*
101.4 Conflicts Between Codes. Where the requirements within the jurisdiction of this plumbing code conflict with the requirements of the mechanical code, this code shall pre- vail. In instances where the code, applicable standards, or the manufacturer's installation instructions conflict, the more stringent provisions shall prevail. Where there is a conflict between a general requirement and a specific requirement, the specific requirement shall prevail. 

102.1 Authority Having Jurisdiction. The Authority Having Jurisdiction 
shall be the Authority duly appointed to enforce this code. For such purposes, the Authority Having jurisdiction shall have the powers of a law enforcement offi- cer. *The Authority Having Jurisdiction shall have the power to render interpretations of this code and to adopt and enforce rules and regulations supplemental to this code as deemed necessary in order to clarify the application of the provisions * of this code. Such interpretations, rules, and regulations shall comply with the intent and purpose of this code.


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## ToUtahNow

GAN said:


> Yep, not as they deem necessary. Deviations from the regulated State Code, must be adopted. Now the AHJ may have their "interpretation" of the code and unless it is a blatant violation call it that way. If the contractor deems the AHJ incorrect they may file suit (in Illinois our State Department Of Public Health Plumbing Division) with the State and ask them to decide or interpret, which would then be law, unless the modifications have been codified, approved by the State & then adopted by the Local AHJ.
> 
> I disagree that an inspector is a _*"baby sitter"*_ and take a certain amount of resentment for that term, the Inspector is the enforcement arm, so they should know the code (generally, but inspectors that tell you they do not make a mistake is lying).
> 
> In my "inspections" I have seen contractors blatantly violate the plumbing code, and what I hear is "well the blue prints had it like this" and we knew you would catch it and write it up. So rather than argue with the GC and have the drawings changed they went along so they could do a change order. Well in Illinois it is the duty of the plumbing contractor to install per the code or refuse to to do the installation & the duty of the inspector to verify the installation is per code. Yes in litigation you will hardly ever see a County, local AHJ or coding agency ever be held liable and forced to pay in some way. It will always be the plumbing contractor, GC, etc.
> 
> 2013 California Plumbing Code California Code of Regulations Title 24, Part 5 California Building Standards Commission Based on 2012 Uniform Plumbing Code
> 
> *A city, county or city and county may establish more restrictive building standards reasonably necessary because of local climatic, geological or topographical conditions. Findings of the local condition(s) and the adopted local building standard(s) must be filed with the California Building Standards Commission to become effective and may not be effective sooner than the effective date of this edition of California Building Standards Code.
> *
> 101.4 Conflicts Between Codes. Where the requirements within the jurisdiction of this plumbing code conflict with the requirements of the mechanical code, this code shall pre- vail. In instances where the code, applicable standards, or the manufacturer's installation instructions conflict, the more stringent provisions shall prevail. Where there is a conflict between a general requirement and a specific requirement, the specific requirement shall prevail.
> 
> 102.1 Authority Having Jurisdiction. The Authority Having Jurisdiction
> shall be the Authority duly appointed to enforce this code. For such purposes, the Authority Having jurisdiction shall have the powers of a law enforcement offi- cer. *The Authority Having Jurisdiction shall have the power to render interpretations of this code and to adopt and enforce rules and regulations supplemental to this code as deemed necessary in order to clarify the application of the provisions * of this code. Such interpretations, rules, and regulations shall comply with the intent and purpose of this code.


Perhaps my words were poorly chosen. My point was the legal responsibility lies with the contractor and not the Building Official. I don't think I have ever seen a Construction Defect case where the Defendant does not excuses their work away saying the inspector signed it off. In my opinion, inspectors are there to keep the contractor honest and cannot catch everything. I've been on project where the inspectors gets 2 hours to inspect 25 track homes. A lot gets missed with that type of a schedule.

Mark


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