# Venting problem



## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

Hey guys need your pro opinion here. I had a call yesterday for a gurgling tub. When I got there lady told me that only the upstairs bath gurgled. It a ranch house on a basement every ceiling and wall finished in the house with drywall no drop ceilings. anyway I go down in the basement nothing visible. I go in the back yard and see only 1 2 inch vent going thru the roof. this house has a bath and kitchen upstairs Downstairs it has a bath laundry room, kitchen and floor drains. Well anyway she has a pvc clean out in the backyard. Run camera in about 2 ft turns to orangeburg with roots in it but not stopped up. Run sewer machine anyway to clean it out. Go upstairs flush the toilet no gurgling ho comes in and says she notice it nore when she would empty her invalids husbands handicap potty. So we fill it up flush the toilet no gurgling. flush the toilet again real loud gurgling. wait a few minutes no gurgling dump the potty it gurgles. so I figure vent is stopped up go on roof with a water hose and run water in to stack no problem there. Go back in bathroom run auger through toilet repeat steps above same result. just flush no problem flush with potty it gurgles. The only thing I can think of is that the 2 inch vent is just not adequate venting for the amount of water being flushed. Its also a 3.5 gal flush toilet. I told the ho that is what I thought the problem was but that I would come in here and ask you guys what you thought. Something else I should mention is that it does not go into a septic system or sewer main. It just dumps into a field in the back of the house. Got any ideas??? Like i mentioned earlier all the plumbing is concealed except for about 6 ft of 3 inch dwv copper stack and she does not want to cut any walls or ceiling.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Is there a sink near by? If so pull the trap and run your test, if the problem stops with trap off, it is a venting problem.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

What dumps into the field in the back of the house? You're not talking about the main sewer are you? Also, one 2" vent for the house is not enough.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

I agree, vent is undersized.... Dumps in fieldOutside cleanout?:blink:


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

yes dumps in field. its legal here as long as you have 5 acres of ground and it does not flow directly on your neighbors property. Both houses I have lived in have been like that. the one I rented I left it like that but the one I bought I put a septic tank in. They are also allowed to have a lagoon here as long as it is fenced in. defination for a lagoon a hole in the ground filled with water and sewage. And you wonder why we have a west nile problem here in missouri. Surprised that we don't of blubonic plague epedemic. Hell even the logging camps in the back woods of northern maine where I am from have septic systems! go figure! Just need to add this is in the rural areas not in town although some places within the city limits are that way. Usually in areas where they were once rural but due to urban development they expanded the city limits.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

al said:


> yes dumps in field. its legal here as long as you have 5 acres of ground and it does not flow directly on your neighbors property. Both houses I have lived in have been like that. the one I rented I left it like that but the one I bought I put a septic tank in. They are also allowed to have a lagoon here as long as it is fenced in. defination for a lagoon a hole in the ground filled with water and sewage. And you wonder why we have a west nile problem here in missouri. Surprised that we don't of blubonic plague epedemic. Hell even the logging camps in the back woods of northern maine where I am from have septic systems! go figure!


I didn't realize you could do that anywhere in the states anymore. WTF?:blink:
This is interesting, that is if you're in to these sort of things (like we are). I found this article about it, good read. You see, I learn something new everyday!
http://extension.missouri.edu/publications/DisplayPub.aspx?P=WQ402


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

ironranger said:


> I didn't realize you could do that anywhere in the states anymore. WTF?:blink:


 Welcome to missouri. Please don't breathe through your nose.:laughing:


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

I think they have changed the law now so that if you sell or buy a house with a field drain it cannot be finance with out a septic system. When I bought my house I told the appraiser when he ask me if it had a septic I said yes and pointed to the woods where the field drain was. He just checked it off and kept inspecting the rest of the house. Lagoons still legal but has to have an aerated system. which consist of a pump keeping the water moving.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

2" vent is enough if piping is configured properly--1.5" would keep a gurgle from happening if other problems arent present such as back pitched or slumped drains etc. Do you have a small cam to check or pull a toilet ?


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

stillaround said:


> 2" vent is enough if piping is configured properly--1.5" would keep a gurgle from happening if other problems arent present such as back pitched or slumped drains etc. Do you have a small cam to check or pull a toilet ?


 I put a 6 ft auger down the line and didn't hit any obstuction what so ever. 6 ft should have taken very close to the 90 that drops into the basement.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I dont have a visual of this and am only operating on most gurgles are drain related such as the lateral being full to the point of causing some pressure on the trap of the branch such as the tub. I guess was there ever a time it didnt gurgle? and if the lateral isnt full I would lean vent then.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

I have run into this problem twice. One time caused by a house with no vents, and the other caused by a long run under the house needing a relief vent.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Is it possible to remove some base board and see snake in? I mean the customer has a gurgle , doesnt want the wall opened ( drywall patch is less than plumbing time in my book) and without a good guess as to how the pipes are run its asking a bit.
I suppose I would pull the toilet if I couldnt tell how its run and check how the branch of the tub comes in --2" vent is enough air


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

next time I work on a field drain or lagoon i will take a pic and post it on here.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

al said:


> next time I work on a field drain or lagoon i will take a pic and post it on here.


 Very funny? The lagoon isnt my problem its the above grade tub/toilet/ lav piping and how its configured. If no one wants to believe that 2" is enough air then read a code book. 31 years in hasnt made me oblivious to gurgles--enough rant--A gurgle is easy to figure out if the way things are piped are known. Ill troubleshoot my own.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

stillaround said:


> Very funny? The lagoon isnt my problem its the above grade tub/toilet/ lav piping and how its configured. If no one wants to believe that 2" is enough air then read a code book. 31 years in hasnt made me oblivious to gurgles--enough rant--A gurgle is easy to figure out if the way things are piped are known. Ill troubleshoot my own.



A single 2" vent through the roof would not be code in this state and far from from being sufficient for that many fixture units in most any state. Maybe it's code in Missouri I don't know, here we have to have at least one 3" stack through the roof in every home or business.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I realize that the states have codes that now vary more widely on minimum vent but even a fully vented house to code can exhibit a gurgle due to suds crossing a toilet branch on a wet vent. My point is to see what level of fluid is crossing the connection point of the gurgling fixture, whether it has sunken over the years, was always this way and besides I cant tell by what was said how its laid out so Im helping to my own hurt. The lagoon I assume is a safe distance from the fixtures and the problem exhibits on a greater load. They vent 2" whole houses now so I have a time thinking that it is a too small a vent issue.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Since the problem just started it would lead me to believe that you have a partially clogged toilet branch drain.......for some reason that pipe is filling up. Bring a small drain machine into the bath and run it through and then reset the toilet. While your machines in the pipe,walk around and map out were they go. Do a bucket test while the toilets up. I've seen those waxseals witht he black plastic horn cause this problem on some older toilets.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

'


TheMaster said:


> Since the problem just started it would lead me to believe that you have a partially clogged toilet branch drain.......for some reason that pipe is filling up. Bring a small drain machine into the bath and run it through and then reset the toilet. While your machines in the pipe,walk around and map out were they go. Do a bucket test while the toilets up. I've seen those waxseals witht he black plastic horn cause this problem on some older toilets.


`Agree !! If it has ALWAYS done this then we would look closer at the venting system ,,,, If it is a newer thing then you have a partial blockage like Master said ,, ( the "master" thing felt weird typing :whistling2: ) 

You should most likely find a partial branch stoppage on the 3"


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

*Like this !!*


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

stillaround said:


> Very funny? The lagoon isnt my problem its the above grade tub/toilet/ lav piping and how its configured. If no one wants to believe that 2" is enough air then read a code book. 31 years in hasnt made me oblivious to gurgles--enough rant--A gurgle is easy to figure out if the way things are piped are known. Ill troubleshoot my own.


what are you getting so hot under the collar for. That post was meant for iron ranger who seems interested in the fact that we are still using lagoons here in missouri. I am not disputing your point. As I stated when I opened the discussion I wanted all your professional opinion pro and con, and after I read them all I will make an assement and go from there. I wish I could give more info on how the pipe is configured but without cutting out a bunch of drywall and ceiling I can only guess at it. We just got a little off topic sorry about that. peace out


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Pull the toilet and run your small electric machine through it...trace out the pipes while you make sure its clean by sounding it out. While you have the toilet up make sure its not the toilet itself. Use a 5 gal. bucket to pour some water down the pipe and see how it acts. I think if you do all these things you will solve your problem or will know for sure whats wrong and what to do about it from there. Goodluck


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

al said:


> what are you getting so hot under the collar for. That post was meant for iron ranger who seems interested in the fact that we are still using lagoons here in missouri. I am not disputing your point. As I stated when I opened the discussion I wanted all your professional opinion pro and con, and after I read them all I will make an assement and go from there. I wish I could give more info on how the pipe is configured but without cutting out a bunch of drywall and ceiling I can only guess at it. We just got a little off topic sorry about that. peace out


 At least I didnt start the post with "You dirty bum"...maybe you remember Jackie Gleason


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

ironranger said:


> What dumps into the field in the back of the house? You're not talking about the main sewer are you? Also, one 2" vent for the house is not enough.



IPC only requires one vent, 1/2 the size of the building drain, through the roof. 2" will handle a 4" main.


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## ROSELLE PLUMBER (Jun 26, 2009)

more info/ when did the gurgling start? does it come from the over flow? when you run another fixture does it gurgle? or pump?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I gotta go with Master here also. If this problem is recent there is probably a partial blockage somewhere in the toilet line.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> IPC only requires one vent, 1/2 the size of the building drain, through the roof. 2" will handle a 4" main.



I thought they might.:laughing: We're just a tad stricter in this state and for good reason.


*4715.2520 VENT STACKS AND STACK VENTS.*

*Subpart 1.*

* Vent stack required.*

Every building in which plumbing is installed shall have at least one three-inch vent stack (or stack vent) carried full size through the roof as provided in part 4715.2330. A vent stack or main vent shall be installed with a soil or waste stack whenever individual vents, relief vents, or branch vents are required for stacks of three or more branch intervals. 

*Subp. 2.*

* Connections at base and top.*

For stacks of three or four branch intervals in height, all main vents or vent stacks shall connect full size at their base to the main soil or waste stack below, through, or not more than 18 inches above the lowest fixture branch.
For stacks of five or more branch intervals in height, a main vent or vent stack shall connect full size with the soil or waste stack it serves, with a wye and one-eighth bend below the lowest fixture branch connected to such soil or waste stack, or at a point approved by the administrative authority.
Each such soil or waste stack, and vent stack shall be similarly cross-connected with a yoke vent at intervals of not more than five branch intervals as described in part 4715.2640.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

ironranger said:


> I thought they might.:laughing: We're just a tad stricter in this state and for good reason.





Just another little code tid bit that causes my blood pressure to rise a tad higher, but I'm learning to live with disappointment. Maybe some day I will accept hack plumbing codes. Excuse me while I wet vent a couple of bath groups in ANY DAMN ORDER I WANT because the IPC says I can do that also. Oh and while I'm at it remind me that I'm running low on AAV's, time to buy another case.


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## ROSELLE PLUMBER (Jun 26, 2009)

when does it gurgle


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

al said:


> yes dumps in field. its legal here as long as you have 5 acres of ground and it does not flow directly on your neighbors property. Both houses I have lived in have been like that. the one I rented I left it like that but the one I bought I put a septic tank in. They are also allowed to have a lagoon here as long as it is fenced in. defination for a lagoon a hole in the ground filled with water and sewage. And you wonder why we have a west nile problem here in missouri. Surprised that we don't of blubonic plague epedemic. Hell even the logging camps in the back woods of northern maine where I am from have septic systems! go figure! Just need to add this is in the rural areas not in town although some places within the city limits are that way. Usually in areas where they were once rural but due to urban development they expanded the city limits.


here we can dump clean water (Sink, tub, washer machine) on the ground, but never a toilet. As long as the oder is not offensive to others and it does not drain onto anothers property. Nobody does, but its leagle though.


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

ROSELLE PLUMBER said:


> more info/ when did the gurgling start? does it come from the over flow? when you run another fixture does it gurgle? or pump?


As I mentioned in my first post it only gurgles when she dumps the handicap potty in with the water already in the bowl. I will call her and go bback one day next week and see if I can figure things out with some of your sugestions on here. Thanks guys


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

Thank you all for your help. It is greatly appreciated.

Al


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

I bet the toilet is flat vented with no fixture to wash the vent. Common practice till a few years ago. The use of the toilet has finally clogged its vent, probably a 3x2 wye. The 2" is fouled. Try to get to that vent and rod it out. Let me know if I am correct.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Plasticman said:


> I bet the toilet is flat vented with no fixture to wash the vent. Common practice till a few years ago. The use of the toilet has finally clogged its vent, probably a 3x2 wye. The 2" is fouled. Try to get to that vent and rod it out. Let me know if I am correct.


 Tomm. I'ma climb on my roof and put a fernco cap over my vent for my toilet. Its indivdually vented and is also the main vent for the bathroom. i will then flush the toilet and see what happens. I will post the results. i'm curous as to what is going to happen. Anybody who reads this is more than welcome to post how they feel. I'll also be running the grid lavatory drain test.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Have an unvented toilet set up in the lab just to prove the point that toilets don't need vents. They are a full siphoning, self vented fixture. Vent or no vent makes no difference. Every time a toilet is flushed, the entire contents are flushed by siphonic action through an s trap built into the toilet. They are fully vented by the large amount of atmosphere pushing down on the water in the bowel.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Have an unvented toilet set up in the lab just to prove the point that toilets don't need vents. They are a full siphoning, self vented fixture. Vent or no vent makes no difference. Every time a toilet is flushed, the entire contents are flushed by siphonic action through an s trap built into the toilet. They are fully vented by the large amount of atmosphere pushing down on the water in the bowel.


I disagree with that totaly.. I have had a few calls on toilets that didn't flush well only to find a plugged vent and when i cleaned the vent they flushed just fine from then on. I know it was the vent clogged and not the drain because icherck it out with my camera before and after.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Have an unvented toilet set up in the lab just to prove the point that toilets don't need vents. They are a full siphoning, self vented fixture. Vent or no vent makes no difference. Every time a toilet is flushed, the entire contents are flushed by siphonic action through an s trap built into the toilet. They are fully vented by the large amount of atmosphere pushing down on the water in the bowel.


 I have to disagree also. The 1.6's are pretty sensitive in design and any resistance in the discharge side messes with the siphon--the pressure differential not being met.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Toilets not needing a vent is radical. Duh, the water leaving a toilet is displacing air in the line. Any problem with that air movement ( a vent issue ) is a restriction. Whats going on in that lab.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Post some pictures of the lab? Not the dog type


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Post some pictures of the lab? Not the dog type


 I'ma bout to get my ladder out.....plugg my vent and take some pics. You will get an honest ansewer from me......I'm not afraid of being wrong....if it doesn't flush or changes the flush i will post it. we will see shortly. I do not think its going to change a thing. Theres enough air in the pipes for it to act as a combo waste and vent. However it would not have enough air if the pipe is filling up with water......like when the pipe is half clogged.:yes: We shall see:yes:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Ok I have conducted the test. Here are the pics,I know it doesn't prove anything other than I took the time to plug the vent and take pics.....you'll just hafta trust me. The toilet flushed 5 times with no problems and I think thats enough to prove atleast my toilet will work without a vent and work the same. I also ran a bathtub and a shower while i flushed. No problems with any of it.
http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww175/Waxsealer/vent001.jpg
http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww175/Waxsealer/vent002.jpg
http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww175/Waxsealer/vent003.jpg
http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww175/Waxsealer/vent004.jpg

Ok this last one I took in good fun for ron:laughing: I love you man:thumbsup:
http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww175/Waxsealer/vent005.jpg
add> Also notice after 9 years the lead roof jack is just like new....all new construction here are rubber jacks that rot in a few years.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Ok this last one I took in good fun for ron:laughing: I love you man:thumbsup:


OH yea thanks for the memories. At least you could have cleaned it up before you shot the picture.


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

I would have loved to seen your neighnbors and read thier minds when you were up on the roof shoving a jacket down your vent.:laughing:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

My lab set up has 75' of 3" pvc @ 1/8 ipf pitch. A 3" street ell with a 3" female flange. We have tested just about every toilet imaginable on the line. They will all flush as many times as you pull the handle. No vent. The IPC lets distance from toilet to vent be "unlimited" and with good reason. If a plugged vent is causing a toilet not to flush, there is more than the vent plugged.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

al said:


> I would have loved to seen your neighnbors and read thier minds when you were up on the roof shoving a jacket down your vent.:laughing:


My neighbors are cool...they know I'm "different"and they enjoy my crazyness. I once had a party on a saturday and the old lady around the corner thought sombody had died....she brought food over to my house....we were all in the house getting drunk and watching football and the old lady rings the doorbell and a friend answers it with two beers double stacked. The old lady gave me the food anyway,mac&cheese. :laughing:


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

I see the problem.....the toilet seat was broke.


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## Bulldog Plumbing (Nov 9, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> They are fully vented by the large amount of atmosphere pushing down on the water in the bowel.


By this logic you wouldn't need a vent on anything. How about the amount of atmosphere pushing down on the drain in shower? Fixtures will drain without vents, its just not an ideal setup. Im sure it helps that its on 75 feet of a straight run also. Add some drops, offsets, and turns to make it more realistic.


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## breid1903 (Feb 8, 2009)

*red shirt*

now i know where my red shirt went. lol. breid


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

al said:


> I would have loved to seen your neighnbors and read thier minds when you were up on the roof shoving a jacket down your vent.:laughing:


 too funny!!:laughing:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

JoeTepleyP&H said:


> By this logic you wouldn't need a vent on anything. How about the amount of atmosphere pushing down on the drain in shower? Fixtures will drain without vents, its just not an ideal setup. Im sure it helps that its on 75 feet of a straight run also. Add some drops, offsets, and turns to make it more realistic.


No, you don't need a vent on anything, or at least anything with an S trap. The vent keeps the trap from siphoning. It will drain just fine without it. Adding offsets and drops makes no difference at all, basic hydraulics. Hate to sound condescending but how long you had a plumbing license? Cause that's all pretty basic theory.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

JoeTepleyP&H said:


> By this logic you wouldn't need a vent on anything. How about the amount of atmosphere pushing down on the drain in shower? Fixtures will drain without vents, its just not an ideal setup. Im sure it helps that its on 75 feet of a straight run also. Add some drops, offsets, and turns to make it more realistic.


You don't really, the purpose of a vent is to equalize pressure within the system, it will drain without a vent, it will drain far better with one.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I had a kitchen sink a few years ago. It was a typical 2 bowl stainless sink 7" deep or so. It had a center outlet waste on it and 1.5" tubular p-trap. Then it went into 1.5" dwv copper pipe. It was an island set up and somebody removed the studor vent and plugged it with a pvc plug. The copper went down under the house about a 4 or 5' drop straight down and 90'd into 3" cast iron at the base of the stack. When you filled both sides of that sink and pulled the stoppers it took about 15 minutes for that sink to drain. I removed the plug up near the top of the sink and it drained in 20 seconds. I installed a studor vent and collected a check. If the pipe fills up on a long run you need a vent and on a long vertical drop it seems worse. In this case you needed a vent. But a toilet dumoing 3.5 gallons of water into a 3' pipe properly graded doesn't require a vent to flush. I've seen both of these examples with my own two eyes. Its not a theory or open for debate.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Yep, seen similar many times. However, it's always caused by either piping that is improperly sized, pitched or plugged.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

My master toilet has a 3x2 cross just below the flange. One side of the 2 inch catches the tub and has a studor vent under the cabinet connecting the two lavs. The other 2 inch side of the cross used to catch the washer, vtr and catch the mb shower out of a 2 inch combo. When I took my washer off the septic tank and ran it into ( a different location ) the vtr to the toilet was then deleted. Toilet would NOT flush. I had to cut a 3x2 wye in the horozontal line just in front of the 90 that caught the johnnie and install another aav under the crawl space. I know the aav is not above the toilet trap but the toilet now flushes fine. Don't tell me a toilet doesn't need a vent. It does.
When a wc is connected to a drainage system it's flushing capability is affected by the piping itself. Maybe because of the constriction of the pipes or some other scientic reason, I don't know.
I have flushed toilets sitting on saw horses and flushed fine untill it was re-installed where the problem had occured and it would then start acting up again. Toilets, DO need venting. They are the most improperly vented fixture in the entire system.


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## Bulldog Plumbing (Nov 9, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> No, you don't need a vent on anything, or at least anything with an S trap. The vent keeps the trap from siphoning. It will drain just fine without it. Adding offsets and drops makes no difference at all, basic hydraulics. Hate to sound condescending but how long you had a plumbing license? Cause that's all pretty basic theory.


 
Maybe you just didn't understand what i was saying or I didn't word it correctly. I was stating that you don't necessarilly need a vent, but the drain would work better with one. As for how long i've had my license. . . obviously not as long as you because I haven't set up my own toilet "lab" yet. When I do maybe then ill understand why "vents are overrated". Until then allow me to respectfully disagree with your opinion.:thumbsup:


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> I had a kitchen sink a few years ago. It was a typical 2 bowl stainless sink 7" deep or so. It had a center outlet waste on it and 1.5" tubular p-trap. Then it went into 1.5" dwv copper pipe. It was an island set up and somebody removed the studor vent and plugged it with a pvc plug. The copper went down under the house about a 4 or 5' drop straight down and 90'd into 3" cast iron at the base of the stack. When you filled both sides of that sink and pulled the stoppers it took about 15 minutes for that sink to drain. I removed the plug up near the top of the sink and it drained in 20 seconds. I installed a studor vent and collected a check. If the pipe fills up on a long run you need a vent and on a long vertical drop it seems worse. In this case you needed a vent. But a toilet dumoing 3.5 gallons of water into a 3' pipe properly graded doesn't require a vent to flush. I've seen both of these examples with my own two eyes. Its not a theory or open for debate.


Exactly. it's like putting your thumb over a straw with coke in it. It goes no where till you move your thumb.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Plasticman said:


> My master toilet has a 3x2 cross just below the flange. One side of the 2 inch catches the tub and has a studor vent under the cabinet connecting the two lavs. The other 2 inch side of the cross used to catch the washer, vtr and catch the mb shower out of a 2 inch combo. When I took my washer off the septic tank and ran it into ( a different location ) the vtr to the toilet was then deleted. Toilet would NOT flush. I had to cut a 3x2 wye in the horozontal line just in front of the 90 that caught the johnnie and install another aav under the crawl space. I know the aav is not above the toilet trap but the toilet now flushes fine. Don't tell me a toilet doesn't need a vent. It does.
> When a wc is connected to a drainage system it's flushing capability is affected by the piping itself. Maybe because of the constriction of the pipes or some other scientic reason, I don't know.
> I have flushed toilets sitting on saw horses and flushed fine untill it was re-installed where the problem had occured and it would then start acting up again. Toilets, DO need venting. They are the most improperly vented fixture in the entire system.



OK, then It's time to do some research. Let me know what you find out.  Just remember crap flows downhill, pay day's Friday. What you are saying is that water will not flow in an unvented pipe? Let's think about that for a sec. Provided the pipe is pitched and not reduced in size either mechanically or because of a sag or partial clog, why would the fixture not drain? Toilets are a self siphoning fixture. They are designed to siphon flush the entire contents of the bowl, through an S trap (the only legal S trap there is) As long as the out going pipe has enough volume to handle the flush, the toilet will flush just fine. Again, if you are experiancing a different result, it is because of a problem with the piping. The only reason the vent helps is because it gives the air being pushed ahead of the water, some place to escape to. Coincidentally it is also the reason why many times pulling an AAv will let a sink drain. It's because there is something partially blocking the drain and pulling the AAV allows the air to escape. You can prove it by dumping a couple of 5 gallon buckets down the same drain. Just make sure you have a way to collect all the water that will eventually pour out of the vent when the drain piping eventually fills up.


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## 1205blazer (Nov 28, 2009)

the 2" vent is enough they have thousands of houses in pg county that have only 2" vent or less 
and it would pull the sink trap or tub first i would think


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

Thats weird I worked in pg county for 25 yrs and don't ever remember seeing a house with less than a 3 inch vent stack. Thats is until wssc approved that crappy ass horizontal neutral code,although it was good for the service plumber fixing tubs and sinks that didn't drain and gurgling toilets.


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## 1205blazer (Nov 28, 2009)

may i ask when it does this is when she dumps the potty waste in is this happen before you flush ????


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## 1205blazer (Nov 28, 2009)

i have never had a problem with just a 2" vent have you ever worked on a old farm house thats all they have or less and have wored for yrs


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

1205blazer said:


> may i ask when it does this is when she dumps the potty waste in is this happen before you flush ????


this was from 6 months ago. i'm sure he's finished with this job.


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

1205blazer said:


> may i ask when it does this is when she dumps the potty waste in is this happen before you flush ????


 Its been so long (about 6 mths) , really can't recall for sure, But I think it was after I flushed. She did not want me to cut walls or ceilings so she said she would live with it. I would have liked to look and see if they if the tub drain was back graded but I couldn't do it without cutting the ceiling. I wanted to snake the tub drain but was afraid she might have a drum trap on there as a lot of the older farm homes in missouri do.


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