# Navien combi boilers



## incarnatopnh

Any of you guys use these? Just put one in a few days ago. Got another one starting tomorrow. My other option around here is Baxi but they are coming in a lot higher priced and the customers don't want the extra cost.


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## brass plumbing

*Don't use Baxi*

One of my customers got one from heating cooling people then after 3 years i crapped out.
the installer was the only available serviceman in the southern michigan and the baxi people in grand rapids & canada apologized for not having cultivated servicemen in the area. the customer had a $9000.00 paper weight.
can't imagine months with cold showers, but, i backed out slowly.
the out come is the unit works intermittently. unreliable.


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## Misterplumber

*Navien*

I replaced a Trianco Heatmaker with a Navien Combi-180 for a tiny apartment in a multistory building. The installation was quite easy however we had nothing but problems with the unit. We chose this unit because it was the least expensive option for this replacement, and the owners were very strapped for cash (aren't they all?).

The new unit kept going out on a code for poor gas pressure (meanwhile a whole bank of Trianco's right next to it were working fine). I was on the phone daily with tech support, they sent me several parts overnight several different times to replace on it, including a circuit board. They even suggested a larger gas pipe, which I increased to no avail. I even had the gas company change the meter. The unit would work for a few days, then randomly go out. Sometimes it would go out right after I left after observing it for a considerable amount of time.

Finally a mfg rep came out to the job and recommended the next unit up (the 210) mentioning that the 180's were more sensitive to gas pressure fluctuations. (The smaller unit was the correct size for the load, it just kept going out). Navien paid me (nominally) to replace the 180 with the 210. After switching to the 210, the unit only went out once in 9 months, and that was due to a clog on the air intake screen. I still have nightmares of this experience and I don't think I will ever install another Navien product again. This product made me look very unprofessional in front of an important customer.


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## Mississippiplum

Misterplumber said:


> I replaced a Trianco Heatmaker with a Navien Combi-180 for a tiny apartment in a multistory building. The installation was quite easy however we had nothing but problems with the unit. We chose this unit because it was the least expensive option for this replacement, and the owners were very strapped for cash (aren't they all?).
> 
> The new unit kept going out on a code for poor gas pressure (meanwhile a whole bank of Trianco's right next to it were working fine). I was on the phone daily with tech support, they sent me several parts overnight several different times to replace on it, including a circuit board. They even suggested a larger gas pipe, which I increased to no avail. I even had the gas company change the meter. The unit would work for a few days, then randomly go out. Sometimes it would go out right after I left after observing it for a considerable amount of time.
> 
> Finally a mfg rep came out to the job and recommended the next unit up (the 210) mentioning that the 180's were more sensitive to gas pressure fluctuations. (The smaller unit was the correct size for the load, it just kept going out). Navien paid me (nominally) to replace the 180 with the 210. After switching to the 210, the unit only went out once in 9 months, and that was due to a clog on the air intake screen. I still have nightmares of this experience and I don't think I will ever install another Navien product again. This product made me look very unprofessional in front of an important customer.


Please post an intro, in the intro section


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## Misterplumber

I did, Thanks.


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## Scott K

Well, I guess you can pay now, or you can pay later.


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## incarnatopnh

I know a bunch of guys here using the navien. Haven't heard of these problems. I hope I don't have the same bad luck with the ones I have installed.


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## Radium

On monday i will be swapping out a 240 combi for a new 240. Hopefully i dont run into all the same problems miss just listed off again. Navien pays very poorly to fix their stuff. I do not recommend those units either.


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## gtmechanic

*baxi*



brass plumbing said:


> One of my customers got one from heating cooling people then after 3 years i crapped out.
> the installer was the only available serviceman in the southern michigan and the baxi people in grand rapids & canada apologized for not having cultivated servicemen in the area. the customer had a $9000.00 paper weight.
> can't imagine months with cold showers, but, i backed out slowly.
> the out come is the unit works intermittently. unreliable.


I installed over 30 Baxi boilers, fantastic product and no calls back. It is all about installer, not a product. Bad installer can screw up the best product, and good installer can make mediocre boiler work like a champ


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## bikefitter0

i just put my first 240 combi in about two weeks ago . work out well .didnt realy need the 240 but wanted it for the domestic hot water.


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## incarnatopnh

I've done 3 of the 240's. Haven't had any problems yet but haven't had any complex installs either. All have been basic with no zone controls.


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## Scott K

I don't know how else to say this and I may come accross as a bit rude, perhaps opinionated, and tad bit facitious, but a Navien is NOT a f*cking boiler!


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## incarnatopnh

Navien is not a boiler, its a company. Lol. Bradford White is not a boiler but I've seen their hot water tanks used for heating.


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## gtmechanic

*low mass boiler*



bikefitter0 said:


> i just put my first 240 combi in about two weeks ago . work out well .didnt realy need the 240 but wanted it for the domestic hot water.


IMHO, when putting in low mass boiler, over-sizing is critical and will lead to poor performance and premature death. Must install buffer tank if over size.


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## ZL700

Scott K said:


> I don't know how else to say this and I may come accross as a bit rude, perhaps opinionated, and tad bit facitious, but a Navien is NOT a f*cking boiler!


Why is a Navien combi boiler not a boiler? 
I checked
2 circuits, ASME on the CH240, listed as a boiler on energy star
You confused with a navien tankless applied as a boiler perhaps?


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## bikefitter0

*gtmechanic*

gtmechanic, the diferrence in the 210 & 240 is minimal, no buffer tank is needed


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## ZL700

gtmechanic said:


> IMHO, when putting in low mass boiler, over-sizing is critical and will lead to poor performance and premature death. Must install buffer tank if over size.


It's a 10 to 1 turndown, max BTU's are needed to meet DHW flow needs like a tankless while the heat side can be programmed as low as 30% total fire, so it's now a 17 to 65 MBTUH boiler or thereabouts.


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## Surfing Plumber

I also don't believe in Navien's products, it has given me soo many problems and unhappy customers...


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## incarnatopnh

I have done 5 navien combi boilers in the past couple months. I am more than pleased thus far. I have had only one call back. They complained that the domestic hot water was too hot. Turned it down and they are happy. Thinking about switching to their tankless water heaters too.


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## gtmechanic

*navien*

Even if navien does not have H stamp, (except one model), It has parameters best boilers in the world can dream on, with the price tag below the ground, it is still china (or korea)made crap, with belief that cheaper product is better because it is cheaper, and filling our houses with cheap useless crap, causing only headaches, instead of providing years of service and comfort. And some installers only criteria is to sell cheap.Because customer is tight on cash.
I was standing recently with building owner on the roof of 16 story building on 5th ave in manhattan, and was listening to his complaints about not having money for new heating system. When i told him to sell the building and resolve cash issue, he looked at me like i fell from the moon. If they have money to buy house, they have money to instal decent boiler.


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## incarnatopnh

I guess I fail to see how their product is not a decent boiler. Ad I stated I have had no issues with their products. I have installed dunkirk boilers for years. Luke their product as well. But at the end of the day navien offers a better high efficiency unit.


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## gtmechanic

*navien is not a boiler.*

navien is not a boiler. except cc240, it does not bear h stamp and cannot be installed for space heating. even installation of this unit is a violation, and there is no need to discuss it further


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## incarnatopnh

Cannot be installed for space heating... Funny that the code inspectors I have come across have all approved them no questions asked. Must be the code inspectors are into violating codes lmao.


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## gtmechanic

*H stamp*

To the best of my knowledge: 
Section IV of ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code requires boiler to bear h stamp. Section IV - Heating Boilers Provides rules for design, fabrication,
installation and inspection of steam generating boilers, and low pressure hot
water boilers that are directly fired by oil,gas, electricity, or coal.
I do not know about inspectors, but in USA ASME code is authority on boiler construction and standards


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## ZL700

gtmechanic said:


> navien is not a boiler. except cc240, it does not bear h stamp and cannot be installed for space heating. even installation of this unit is a violation, and there is no need to discuss it further


No it's the CH240 that has a ASME already, Navien states all CH sizes will be offered with ASME in Jan


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## gtmechanic

*h stamp*

Then it will become legal boiler. i think we have to stick to the rules, otherwise it will become a mess.


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## ZL700

gtmechanic said:


> Then it will become legal boiler. i think we have to stick to the rules, otherwise it will become a mess.


In the past regulators haven't been sure how to handle combi appliances so many were listed as water heaters


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## rocksteady

I just got off the phone with a local plumber that wants me to help him out today with the install of a Navien CH180, 210 or 240 (I don't know what model he has coming). I've never done one of these and I've only installed one other Navien heater. I'm looking at the PDF manual right now. Is there anything I need to know (other than the customer shouldn't have bought a Navien)? 







Paul


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## Jason Payne

*Navien*

I have done a bunch of the Navien water heaters and the Navien Combi boilers. I like these units very much. I have had no problems with these units. I think it comes down to the installer. Follow the install book and you should not have any problems:thumbup:


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## Surfing Plumber

I have installed several Navien before due to the lower price point, but they are nothing but problem for me and my clients. So many calls backs for little components going bad and the extra money I made from the lower price has translates to free service calls.........

I now install Noritz, great product :thumbup: great tech service, they recently came out with the support website support.noritz.com

Although I haven't done any boiler/radiant installation here in California, but I know Noritz offers wall hung tankless boilers in 2 sizes...


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## Jason Payne

Sorry to hear that you have not had good luck with the units. I really only install radiant systems were I am and that is really the best with any condensing boiler so the temp is low and you are geting the full bang for your buck when you are spending the extra money to buy a condensing unit


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## ZL700

Very nice work Jason, something to be proud of.
I think GT mechanic and surfer confuse the water heaters with the combi boiler you have installed


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## Jason Payne

Might be the case:thumbup:


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## gtmechanic

*exp tank.*



Jason Payne said:


> I have done a bunch of the Navien water heaters and the Navien Combi boilers. I like these units very much. I have had no problems with these units. I think it comes down to the installer. Follow the install book and you should not have any problems:thumbup:


Looking at this picture you posted, explains why you like this navien what ever it is. You connected boiler feed from potable water supply without backflow preventer and automatic water pressure regulator, creating cross connection between potable water and contaminated boiler water. Also you must have shut off valve on the expansion tank connection. Between this shut off valve and a tank you have to have drain cock for proper tank charging without removing tank from the line. Webstone sells one combi valve for this purpose.
I see no support for galvanized? gas line, even at 90, when code requires support at each change of direction, support at copper pipe is done wrong, copper pipe is contacting kindorf, you have to use plastic or rubber insert to prevent it.


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## gtmechanic

*water heater*



ZL700 said:


> Very nice work Jason, something to be proud of.
> I think GT mechanic and surfer confuse the water heaters with the combi boiler you have installed


In fact did install over 30 combi boilers Baxi HT380, with no problems what so ever. Combi boilers are very good appliances, if they are H stamped, which makes them a boiler. Right now i m in process of installation of Viessmann Vitodens Combi Plus Boiler, and it is in fact H stamped appliance, and it makes it a boiler as well. So , i would not say i m confused. All what i m saying, Navien is not a boiler, and can be used only as water heater.


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## OldSchool

Boiler .,,, hwt

Big deal .... They are all doing the same thing...... Heating water

The only difference is a boiler is closed and most times a hwt is open

Sent from my portable office....yes I am at work


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## ZL700

Reading GT's comments and a quick check on the Navien CH units.

First many valves such as between tank and piping is a choice and not a requirement. 

Perhaps GT doesn't know the following;

The Navien CH combi boiler carries ASME certification along with CSA 4.9 as a boiler. 

The Navien CH combi heater is also available as non ASME, CSA 4.3 since ASME is not a requirement in the states till above 200,000 BTU or commercial or multi occupancy applications. (except in 5 states it must always be ASME)

ASME model or non ASME, they are essentially the same unit with $350 differences for no factory inspection or certification required. 

The built in electronic feeder controls system pressure changeable on the remote control, you cannot use a boiler PRV, because it limits fill pressure and the Navien has a downstream pressure switch on the outlet of the internal circulator, thus must see 18 psi fill to accomplish 12 psi system static. Pump operates during electronic feed to purge boiler. 

Boiler electonic Fill valve has an internal check valve, how can GT speak for all code jurisdictions? 

*"All what i m saying, Navien is not a boiler, and can be used only as water heater."*

Then how can Navien sell a 2 circuit combi boiler that can only be a water heater?......

Thanks for the input GT, but there is more to boilers in the US that you may not be aware of.


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## Jason Payne

:thumbup::thumbup: Well said. Gt seems to have it out for me and my Navien install not sure why. If Navien combi boiler is not a boiler but comes with hot and cold potable inlet/outlet 3/4" and 1" inlet/oulet for heating???? is that not a boiler


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## ZL700

Jason Payne said:


> Might be the case:thumbup:


As you can read above he just confused again 

He doesn't realize the NR & NP models are tankless water heaters, the CH is combi boilers and combi heaters. 

NR & NP are single circuit, the CH models are 2 circuit with a SS plate heat exchanger isolating boiler water from domestic water.


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## gtmechanic

*where is the picture gone ?*



Jason Payne said:


> :thumbup::thumbup: Well said. Gt seems to have it out for me and my Navien install not sure why. If Navien combi boiler is not a boiler but comes with hot and cold potable inlet/outlet 3/4" and 1" inlet/oulet for heating???? is that not a boiler


I do not see the picture of navien installation. was here yesterday. wanted to mark nonsenses with arrows to clarify why I think this installation is faulty. I know that in many parts of the country water heaters can be installed as boilers, and can be installed by homeowners, and this is ok with me. I also do not know local codes in all localities, not even pretending. Navien might be a good product and I know I m prejudiced against it. I think chinise/corean products are waste of money and resources, I only install European and American brands, Still, even installing water heater as a boiler you must prevent cross connection, contact of copper pipe with ferrus metals and please, do proper support of gas line at least. 

Please , have a minimum standards of safe appliance installation. And install american made products , there are good and reliable H stamped Slant Fin combi boilers.


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## gtmechanic

*cross connection*



ZL700 said:


> As you can read above he just confused again
> 
> the CH models are 2 circuit with a SS plate heat exchanger isolating boiler water from domestic water.


i m talking about line, connecting cold potable water line with heating circuit just above expansion tank, without backflow preventer, this is a cross connection. Realize this when looking at the picture,


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## gtmechanic

*agree*



ZL700 said:


> Thanks for the input GT, but there is more to boilers in the US that you may not be aware of.


I agree with this part


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## ZL700

gtmechanic said:


> i m talking about line, connecting cold potable water line with heating circuit just above expansion tank, without backflow preventer, this is a cross connection. Realize this when looking at the picture,


 
I have to ask since you did so many BAXIs 

How did you deal with the cross connection since the crossover between domestic and heating is inside the cabinet? 

No place for a RPZ there either, contradicting your beliefs.


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## ZL700

*"I know that in many parts of the country water heaters can be installed as boilers"*

Actually its all over the country you can use a water heater including tankless as a heat source provided that you have a fixture draw connection (Combi use) 

Tankless Water Heaters are typically certified to the American National Standard/CSA Standard for Gas Water Heaters ANSI Z21.10.3/CSA 4.3. and tank water heaters are certified to CSA 4.1. 

The Scope of this standard includes water heaters for use with combination potable water/space heating applications. Boilers are typically certified to the American National Standard/CSA Standard for Gas-Fired Low Pressure Steam and Hot Water Boilers ANSI Z21.13/CSA 4.9.

People in the space heating industry soon began to question if tankless water heaters that were certified for potable water/space heating applications were also acceptable for space heating only applications. This led to instances of code officials, in some states, rejecting installations of tankless water heaters in space heating only applications.

ANSI Z21.10.3 is the standard which tankless water heaters are certified. *Section 1.30.5.e – Instructions shall specify that water heaters for combination water/space heating cannot be used in space heating applications only.*

Products intended for use in closed loop systems are typically certified to the American National Standard/CSA Standard for Gas-Fired Low Pressure Steam and Hot Water Boilers ANSI Z21.13/CSA 4.9. The Scope of this standard applies to products that will be used in space heating only (closed loop) systems.


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## gtmechanic

*feed connection.*



ZL700 said:


> I have to ask since you did so many BAXIs
> 
> How did you deal with the cross connection since the crossover between domestic and heating is inside the cabinet?
> 
> No place for a RPZ there either, contradicting your beliefs.


baxi issued memorandum showing the way to do it. actually it looks same as in the missing photo, except, where line from cold water supply connects to baxi heating return, there is auto pressure feed valve with backflow (RPZ) installed. Also check valve required as well in addition to backflow (NYC requirement).


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## gtmechanic

*arizona boiler rules*


Actually its all over the country you can use a water heater including tankless as a heat source provided that you have a fixture draw connection (Combi use) 
Let NY state alone, Arizona boiler rules state:

"An owner or user, of a boiler installed, repaired, replaced, or reinstalled in Arizona, six months after the effective date of this Article shall comply with the 2007 ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code, Sections I, II, IV, V, VIII Division 1, 2, 3, IX, and B31.1"
so in Arizona boilers are governed by ASME rules, the boiler must be stamped. 

http://www.ica.state.az.us/ADOSH/Forms/ADOSH_Rules_Boilers_2009.pdf 

section 4 of asme code defines boiler as an H stamped pressure vessel. Please name the state where combi appliance can be used as a boiler without H , stamp and we will go over this state boiler rules.


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## ZL700

gtmechanic said:


> Actually its all over the country you can use a water heater including tankless as a heat source provided that you have a fixture draw connection (Combi use)
> Let NY state alone, Arizona boiler rules state:
> 
> "An owner or user, of a boiler installed, repaired, replaced, or reinstalled in Arizona, six months after the effective date of this Article shall comply with the 2007 ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code, Sections I, II, IV, V, VIII Division 1, 2, 3, IX, and B31.1"
> so in Arizona boilers are governed by ASME rules, the boiler must be stamped.
> 
> http://www.ica.state.az.us/ADOSH/Forms/ADOSH_Rules_Boilers_2009.pdf
> 
> section 4 of asme code defines boiler as an H stamped pressure vessel. Please name the state where combi appliance can be used as a boiler without H , stamp and we will go over this state boiler rules.


You missed the point, it's about allowing a CSA 4.1 or 4.3 water heater to be used as a combi heat source, I'm not talking about boiler only however;

There are only 4 states in the US that require ASME H stamp on boilers under 200MBTUH, excluding instances where boilers 200,000 and under installed in mult-occupancy and commercial applications. 

Argue with me if you want but it's my job to know this. I'm not allowed to be wrong on this. Where you are in NYS, it's allowed, however VT, MA, MI for example it is not. There are also some local jurisdiction and cities like a few in Minnesota also for example.


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## ZL700

gtmechanic said:


> baxi issued memorandum showing the way to do it. actually it looks same as in the missing photo, except, where line from cold water supply connects to baxi heating return, there is auto pressure feed valve with backflow (RPZ) installed. Also check valve required as well in addition to backflow (NYC requirement).


In other words, domestic hot water and boiler water share same passage ways making cross connection inside and beyond BAXI, carrying boiler stagnant water mixed with fresh domestic to fixtures exposing users to potential bacteria.

Yes the cold water and building is protected but that's usually not how one contracts Legionella, it comes from breathing in bacteria laden droplets while bathing. 

True combi boilers must have 2 isolated circuits.


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## Jason Payne

*Photo*

The photo is not missing has been posted and has stayed posted it is on page 3:thumbup:


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## gtmechanic

*cross connection*



ZL700 said:


> In other words, domestic hot water and boiler water share same passage ways making cross connection inside and beyond BAXI, carrying boiler stagnant water mixed with fresh domestic to fixtures exposing users to potential bacteria.
> 
> Yes the cold water and building is protected but that's usually not how one contracts Legionella, it comes from breathing in bacteria laden droplets while bathing.
> 
> True combi boilers must have 2 isolated circuits.


there is no cross connection inside of the baxi, except for build in manual feed valve, and it must stay closed all the time. Are you saying in Long Island, NY , non H stamped hot water combi boiler is legal for space heating?


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## ZL700

gtmechanic said:


> there is no cross connection inside of the baxi, except for build in manual feed valve, and it must stay closed all the time. Are you saying in Long Island, NY , non H stamped hot water combi boiler is legal for space heating?


Yes as long as its used as a combi application with domestic fixture connection. Not saying its what I would do but it's legal. For example look at rinnai's air handler, tankless water heater and domestic mix valve package, totally legal


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

Definitely not allowed in NYC! No H-stamp no boiler or combined boiler. Plus we need an mea# 

•OTCR established list of products required to be noted on construction drawings
•Specifiers must document certifications (Listings by Approved Agencies, MEA, FDNY Certificate of Approval, etc) 
•Products listed in the Schedule will be checked by DOB Plan Examiners •Other products will be also subject to verification

Q: What is an MEA#?

A: An MEA Number is the number assigned to a piece of equipment or assembly that has been approved for use in New York City by the MEA Division.

The Materials and Equipment Acceptance (MEA) Division was created in 1969. Prior to 1969, the Board of Standards and Appeals (BSA) was the agency having jurisdiciton. The MEA division regulates "certain materials and equipment (that) require Department of Buildings acceptance. These manufactured items affect public safety, health and welfare (including structural stability and fire safety) and are usually a permanent part of a building. They include such items as boilers, air-conditioning equipment, commercial cooking equipment, fire-rated assemblies, fire alarm and suppression equipment, etc. The actual list of accepted products to date is known as the MEA Index."

If you are installing a new Boiler in your building, for instance, the Engineer's Plans must contain a Boiler Schedule including (amongst other information) the MEA Number of the Boiler. Failure to provide the MEA Number on your plans will cause diapproval of the plans until the MEA Number is provided.


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## gtmechanic

*stamping*



ZL700 said:


> Yes as long as its used as a combi application with domestic fixture connection. Not saying its what I would do but it's legal. For example look at rinnai's air handler, tankless water heater and domestic mix valve package, totally legal


 I might be wrong, but i found this document

http://www.labor.ny.gov/workerprotection/safetyhealth/sh4.shtm#4.1.15
which states that:

§ 4-1.15 Stamping of low pressure boilers.

All low pressure boilers shall be built in accordance with ASME requirements by a manufacturer who is in possession of an "H" code symbol stamp and a valid certificate of authorization. Each boiler shall be stamped with the "H" code symbol as shown below.


it is from NY state department of labor.

PART 4 - CONSTRUCTION, INSTALLATION, INSPECTION AND MAINTENANCE OF LOW PRESSURE BOILERS; CONSTRUCTION OF UNFIRED PRESSURE VESSELS

I guess Long Island located in new york state. 
BTW, i m licenced in NYC, just happen to live in Long Island.( those commutes!)

Again, what do i know, i might be wrong again.(it happens often)


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## ZL700

Please get off the fact of boiler only. 
No argument required or needed as tankless water heaters as a combi application are being installed in your backyard, just ask. Trust me


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## ZL700

Read this it will probably enlighten you about tankless combi application allowances 

http://www.eccosupply.ca/pdf/regulations/Rinnai_tb-43_space_heating_applications_rev_a.pdf


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

Water Heater Section MC 1002.2
Water heaters utilized for space heating. 
Water heaters utilized both to supply potable hot water and provide hot water for space-heating applications shall be listed and labeled for such applications by the manufacturer, and shall be built in accordance with Section IV of the ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code with an "H" code stamp. They shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions, the ASME Code and the New York City Plumbing Code.

It's on the ICC website as well as nyc.gov as a downloadable pdf


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

ZL700 said:


> Read this it will probably enlighten you about tankless combi application allowances
> 
> http://www.eccosupply.ca/pdf/regulations/Rinnai_tb-43_space_heating_applications_rev_a.pdf


You can't learn code from a manufacturer


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## gtmechanic

*Rinnai Tankless Water Heaters*



ZL700 said:


> Read this it will probably enlighten you about tankless combi application allowances
> 
> http://www.eccosupply.ca/pdf/regulations/Rinnai_tb-43_space_heating_applications_rev_a.pdf


you , as an a professional should not use manufacturer bulletin as a code book. FYI department of labor is actually government entity, having jurisdiction over energy affairs and boilers in USA as well as other staff.


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## gtmechanic

*???????*



ZL700 said:


> Please get off the fact of boiler only.
> No argument required or needed as tankless water heaters as a combi application are being installed in your backyard, just ask. Trust me



i don't understand what are you saying


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## ZL700

gtmechanic said:


> i don't understand what are you saying


I can't help you there


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## ZL700

Again I'm not here to condone it or promote it, it's happening in your area, just pay attention and you will notice.

Yes there are local jurisdictions that may not allow it but there is not one state that has a blanket policy against it. 

If it wasn't allowed or there was no demand then why are a few manufacturers selling and promoting it???????


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## ZL700

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> You can't learn code from a manufacturer


Manufacturers will only market allowable items right? Or the would eat crow, be sued or out of business


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

ZL700 said:


> Manufacturers will only market allowable items right? Or the would eat crow, be sued or out of business


No 
You sound naive, read their disclaimer it will cover them because they told you to check your local codes


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## ZL700

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> No
> You sound naive, read their disclaimer it will cover them because they told you to check your local codes


Agreed, as I stated earlier that must have been written in Japanese because alot of viewers on this forum tend to read only parts or have difficulties comprehending, local jurisdictions prevail on code. 

Using ICC means nothing for those that follow another.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

Now I will tell you as a gas to gas replacement for a single family there is no initial boiler or annual boiler inspection, so your right some of the hack/gc plumbers are installing them where they can but it doesn't make it right, not here!


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## ZL700

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> You can't learn code from a manufacturer


Purpose was to show water heater and boiler safety codes that would allow it


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## incarnatopnh

gtmechanic said:


> there is no cross connection inside of the baxi, except for build in manual feed valve, and it must stay closed all the time. Are you saying in Long Island, NY , non H stamped hot water combi boiler is legal for space heating?


I know its legal in upstate NY. I have them passed by codes officials all the time.


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## ZL700

incarnatopnh said:


> I know its legal in upstate NY. I have them passed by codes officials all the time.


That is correct, don't be misled that ASME H, V, IL or others are required.


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## gtmechanic

*code officials*



incarnatopnh said:


> I know its legal in upstate NY. I have them passed by codes officials all the time.


They are just people.


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## incarnatopnh

gtmechanic said:


> They are just people.


They are just people whose job is to enforce code. If they let things slide that are illegal, they are just as liable as the plumber who installs it. I know all the Navien combi boilers are approved in my area. They won't sign off on something that's wrong, at least the officials here won't.


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## ZL700

gtmechanic said:


> you , as an a professional should not use manufacturer bulletin as a code book. FYI department of labor is actually government entity, having jurisdiction over energy affairs and boilers in USA as well as other staff.


They are just people


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## Tim`s Plumbing

I found out that the only Navien combi that qualifies for rebates through Gas Networks is the CH 240 ASME.


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## incarnatopnh

Tim`s Plumbing said:


> I found out that the only Navien combi that qualifies for rebates through Gas Networks is the CH 240 ASME.


That is because its the only one that meets energy star requirements.


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## ZL700

Tim`s Plumbing said:


> I found out that the only Navien combi that qualifies for rebates through Gas Networks is the CH 240 ASME.


CH-180, 210 & 240 - ASME are all listed


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## Jason Payne

:no:I have been able to get rebates on all of them


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## BPlumbing

*Navien 240*

I am not familiar with Navien heaters, but was called to a restaurant and they have one. There is a pressure guage on the hot side of the heater, and it drops to zero when the dishwasher kicks on the second cycel and even if there are a couple of hot taps on the pressure really drops. All screens are clear on the heater, there is a direct hot line off the heater to the dishwasher before the mixing vavle for the other taps. There is no problem with the cold water feed or cold taps anywhere. The heater then does not get the dishwasher hot enough. Any help would be appreciated.


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## Catlin987987

Jason Payne said:


> I have done a bunch of the Navien water heaters and the Navien Combi boilers. I like these units very much. I have had no problems with these units. I think it comes down to the installer. Follow the install book and you should not have any problems:thumbup:


Very nice install, looks like someone knows how to solder!


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## OldSchool

BPlumbing said:


> I am not familiar with Navien heaters, but was called to a restaurant and they have one. There is a pressure guage on the hot side of the heater, and it drops to zero when the dishwasher kicks on the second cycel and even if there are a couple of hot taps on the pressure really drops. All screens are clear on the heater, there is a direct hot line off the heater to the dishwasher before the mixing vavle for the other taps. There is no problem with the cold water feed or cold taps anywhere. The heater then does not get the dishwasher hot enough. Any help would be appreciated.


What's the max gpm of that unit ?

What's is the pipe size on cold and hot on tankless ?

There might be an internal screen inside the unit like Bosch has ...


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## rjbphd

BPlumbing said:


> I am not familiar with Navien heaters, but was called to a restaurant and they have one. There is a pressure guage on the hot side of the heater, and it drops to zero when the dishwasher kicks on the second cycel and even if there are a couple of hot taps on the pressure really drops. All screens are clear on the heater, there is a direct hot line off the heater to the dishwasher before the mixing vavle for the other taps. There is no problem with the cold water feed or cold taps anywhere. The heater then does not get the dishwasher hot enough. Any help would be appreciated.


 What a drain cleaner doing or working on this boiler without a proper intro???


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## BPlumbing

*Navien heater*

Ok, I am a plumber, and we also do drain cleaning. The water pipe size is 2" into building and reduces to 1" and then 3/4" into unit, the hot is 3/4". The psi ranges from 80 down to zero.


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## plbgbiz

BPlumbing said:


> Ok, I am a plumber, and we also do drain cleaning. The water pipe size is 2" into building and reduces to 1" and then 3/4" into unit, the hot is 3/4". The psi ranges from 80 down to zero.


Because of when you joined you missed the Welcome to the Plumbing Zone PM.

I forwarded a copy to your inbox. You will find it very informative.


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