# The Hansen Files



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Be sure to check out this show "The Hansen Files" this sunday.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24159621/

They are going to set up hidden cameras and have 10 different plumbers diagnose common plumbing problems.

Chris Hansen was on the Today show with a preview this morning. The hidden camera clip showed a Plumber from a company called "Drain Pro's". The plumber told the housewife that the water heater could blow up and tear down the garage, when in fact the only problem was a slightly loose copper flex connector on a GE water heater.

its gonna be good, dont foget to record :laughing:


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Somebody better warn......,oh, never mind.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Airgap said:


> Somebody better warn......,oh, never mind.


Now that was funny. :yes:

I'm interested in seeing if any of the 'practices' or 'techniques' sound familiar.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Now that was funny. :yes:
> 
> I'm interested in seeing if any of the 'practices' or 'techniques' sound familiar.


If they were too similar, it wouldn't be shown on network TV....


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

*Oh man I'd love to be one of those plumbers*

That was actually filmed during this mock test.


I can guarantee that my diagnosis would tout me as honest abe in a new york minute.


Then I'd take that snippet of video and make $$$$$$ with it. I'd like to know if they ever do that here in my area, I'm game.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

here is what i watched this morning

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/43020325#43020325


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Read the comments here 

http://www.facebook.com/datelinenbc/posts/201988886503363


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Found this is the fb comments, good read


http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/pi/32469954.html


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

This is what you get when there are no ethics ,integrity or honesty in a company and with their people.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

"6 out of 10 plumbers overcharged for the task at hand." 


Who wants to bet, right now that flat rate had a lot to do with that.

I'll submit a request for an answer straight through NBC, post the actual email response.


This show is proving that 60%, over half the plumbing companies in the field are ripping people off, selling bullshi.t "value" in their services. STFU 


You spend all your time trying to build that value while indirectly you're gouging them for all their worth. We got this type on this very website.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

Reading the FB comments just makes me shudder - all those people insisting that all plumbers and auto mechanics are scumbags and ripoff artists! So many of them are suggesting doing their own plumbing. One lady got "ripped off" because she had to pay a plumber's wage for replacing a washing machine hose - if she called a plumber for that she wasn't too bright in the first place and some plumbing companies charge more than what she paid just to come to the door.

Not one of the commenters seems to have any concept of the idea that businesses cost more to run than just a wage . . .


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> "6 out of 10 plumbers overcharged for the task at hand."
> 
> 
> Who wants to bet, right now that flat rate had a lot to do with that.
> ...


It's ok to overcharge as long as you have in house financing.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Those idiots were not selling value. It is VERY simple they are unethical and they are dishonest. It has nothing to do with flat rate or time and material. What they did had nothing to do with sales or value and for that matter the plumbing trade. They are criminals. You will find this type in flat rate and time and material.

What evidence was in the videos that showed they were flat rate or time and material?

The videos showed them for what they are con artists and thief’s.
What you think you are you are.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Airgap said:


> Somebody better warn......,oh, never mind.


*Touche'*:laughing:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Richard Hilliard said:


> .
> 
> *What evidence was in the videos that showed they were flat rate*


 

^^^





Clipboard, in their hands, wanting a signature to a price before the work commences.

And, the fact that 6 out of 10 overcharged. <<< Synonymous with flate rate pricing.


Be patient. I'll get a response from NBC. Then I'll lay out the proof.


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## Hoozycoozy (Apr 26, 2011)

The problem I have with programs like this is that they make it where it represents all contractors, which is completely misleading. I'd also like to know how they chose the contractors, what process they used to determine who to contact. It's just like that idiot Holmes, who is a blatant threat to professional tradesmen, making it seem like every contractor is out to get you. Smh


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> ^^^
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The idiots were trying to burn the home owner.Are you seriously trying to tell me that t&m'ers could not possibly try the same crap? Get a grip . Check 60 minutes they did the same thing many many years ago in the trades and displayed the same type of stuff.

And oh yeah when I first started a company by the way it was t&m I never used a clipboard and I never brought it into the customers home when I started the job. wait I did do that.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> ^^^
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So what you are saying is all flat rate plumbers are crooks? :whistling2:

That would be the same thing as me saying that any plumber that says surprise here is your bill on the completion of the job is a crook! :yes:

The thing is that we know what a crook is...
And they taint the image of the whole industry...

They are the company that doesn't check the leaking water heater connection that Chris Hanson had loosened...

They are the company that sells an excavation on over 90% of their drain cleaning calls...

They are the company that puts their foot in the door and doesn't leave until both supply and drain plumbing has bee repiped, you have a new water heater, and a new boiler that replaced the 5 year old unit that you already had.... Oh by the way the bank account is empty and the credit card is maxed... Maybe there is even some creative financing too... :laughing:



> Cause there is something you need to know... I'm Chris Hanson and I'm with Dateline NBC and we're doing a story... :thumbup:


He may not like the price... But the diagnostic and work will be flawless!


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

A clip board is a dead give-away. Not hardly. Clipboard & legal pad to take notes. 

Also helpful to draw a diagram for a H.O. How many times have you gone to replace a shower valve & the H.O. says "Why do you need to get in the wall? Just change the spout, handles, etc." 

A thief is a thief. Has absolutely nothing to do with T & M/Flat Rate!

Interesting reading the comments from ignorant homeowners - plumber ripped me off because he charged $75.00 to pull/reset a toilet.  That a was a gift!

There is a comment Chris Hansen made that got my attention, 6-10 plumbers charged the H.O. too much. :blink: Based on what? I cannot wait to see how they determined what the right price was.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Some of those Facebook comments are absurd. People are complaining about $75 to replace a wax ring. I didn't know plumbing was supposed to be charity work.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

*EMAIL SENT*

Can't really offer a response to anyone at this point, I'll be in touch when I get my response. :laughing:


And I will. :thumbsup:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> A clip board is a dead give-away. Not hardly. Clipboard & legal pad to take notes.
> 
> .


 
Really?


Then why, in this particular case, 


would I, as a Master Plumber, not direct my customer and point to the leak, tell her that it was loose, and tighten the connection,


explain what that water did to the insulation around the tank, and that possibly affected the electrical connections inside, 


that it would be a good idea to "keep an eye on it" for a few days, and IF it malfunctions, call us and we'll replace that heater if it stops working.


That's the normal and customary approach I give to my clientell, and I don't need a clipboard to show anything.



However you do it, it's not what I do because you're on here defending the 6 that overcharged with a clipboard in hand. That's not me. *Dunbar Plumbing is honest, always to the customer. If you don't need it, we aren't selling it. *


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## Hoozycoozy (Apr 26, 2011)

Marlin said:


> Some of those Facebook comments are absurd. People are complaining about $75 to replace a wax ring. I didn't know plumbing was supposed to be charity work.


I've had people flip when I tell them
I charge $100 to replace or reset a toilet (box stores charge 149 around here).... 

Once I went to investigate a clogged sink, that had been cleaned by another company a year prior, they cut the 2" pvc line in half, and where it tied into the main trunk cleaned it, put a fernco on the 2". The pipe was falling way too fast (probably 3/4" every four feet) and was in a bad bind where they couldn't get it back to main trunk, so they put it half way on and wrapped maybe 4 rolls of duct tape on it! I was amazed. They charged $850 to do this! I was more amazed. I re-ran the line from the sink to the main trunk with proper fall, took about an hour, charged $350.. This was a legit company.... I took pictures and took them to the owner of the company, he was astounded.. He said the plumber who did the work was fired about 6 months prior, called the ho, apologized and reimbursed her what they charged plus my fee!! I was blown away and now recommend him often to others, I was very impressed! 

In short one bad plumber can give a good company a bad name!


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Really?
> 
> Then why, in this particular case, would I, as a Master Plumber, not direct my customer and point to the leak, tell her that it was loose, and tighten the connection,
> 
> ...


So you would not replace the leaking flex connector which is recognized as a one-time use connector?

Do you reuse them on your water heater replacements as well? :whistling2:

You would not take the time to open the thermostat and element access panels to make sure that they are not full of water and the thermostat and element connections aren't frying out, popping and smoking from being wet?

If that is happening replacing them before the access panel is melted and there is a black smoke stain up the side of the water heater, with the insulation burned off all the wiring, could save your customer a bunch of money. Once the water starts those connections arcing out the carbon tracking will take care of the rest! :yes:

So yes I wouldn't simply charge the customer just barely enough money to cover the gas or, say don't worry about it and walk away thinking I had just made a friend and customer for life...

They get what they pay for and that is good plumbing!


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

In this case, I would be surprised if less than 7 of the 10 companies were flat rate. BUT this story has just as much to do with flat rate pricing as it does with the plumbing trade. I'm sure they picked the most visible plumbing contractors in the area (Phoenix?) and I would guess that the big guys in that city are flat rate. I do think that flat rate pricing is a structure that allows unscrupulous owners to camouflage their overcharging. Nothing wrong with the system but it can be manipulated to rip people off a lot easier than T&M.


Come on, you know that *nobody* here took notes or drew diagrams. :laughing:








Paul


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Redwood said:


> So you would not replace the leaking flex connector which is recognized as a one-time use connector?
> 
> Do you reuse them on your water heater replacements as well? :whistling2: *No. You've seen the pictures, you asked a question you already had an answer to.*
> 
> ...


 
Gotta understand that I deal with this every day, customers wanting "free" like these fellows probably showed up for, hoping to hit the jackpot with a commitment to perform the work duties.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Good sting. That one guy who said the W/H might explode and take down part of the garage should be charged with attempted fraud of some sort. He was a low-life.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I don't know arizona real well, but I would expect to think, being on the west coast that this "call" is atypical of any situation that a earthquake prone area would create, 


a simple leak at the connections of that water heater. Given those flex connectors are commonly used on the west coast, I'm hard pressed to make fun of that connection, knowing it's a code required design that allows for vibration.


Not so much a jab at the plumbing contractor wanting a simplistic connection.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> *EMAIL SENT*
> 
> Can't really offer a response to anyone at this point, I'll be in touch when I get my response. :laughing:
> 
> ...


,

Even if they were Flat Rate cos., how would you know if they even called any T & M plumbers to participate?

nevamind . . . that will be the next show.

*JUST SAY NO TO T & M PLUMBER'S CRACK*

Show opens with H.O. calling plumber. "Yeah, Joe's Plumbing, whadda want?"

H.O. - I'm afraid my house might flood, water is coming out the top of my water heater.

Joe - Hmmmmm. I gotta busy day. Where you at?

H.O. - rolls eyes and gives address.

Joe - Where's dat?

H.O. - You don't carry a map or have GPS

Joe - Nope, don't need it. Okay, I'll see you later. CLICK

H.O. - Looks like this  Calls back.

Joe - "Yeah, Joe's Plumbing, whadda want?"

H.O. - I was just speaking with you and you hung up before I could ask what time you would be here.

Joe - Listen Lady, I told you I was busy. Probably 1:00 p.m.

H.O. - Okay, see you then.

1:00 comes, no plumber
2:00 comes, no plumber

2:30 H.O. calls plumber. "Leave your name & number. I'll call you back." 
3:00 H.O. calls plumber again "This mailbox is full"
3:30 H.O. calls plumber again and get an answer

Joe - I been hand diggin half the day. Can't make it. Maybe tomorrow.

H.O. - What about my water heater?

Joe - Turn it off, it ain't goin nowhere. I'll be over first thing in the a.m.

H.O. - Fine

Next a.m.

7:15 a.m. - Plumber knocks on the door. H.O. runs to get her robe before answering the door, all the while thinking, who in their right mind is knocking on my door at 7:15 a.m.

Joe - I'm here to look at your water heater.

H.O. - Where are your tools?

Joe - In the truck.

H.O. - Don't you have a business card?

Joe - Don't need a card. See my shirt, says Joe.

H.O. - Looks down at his shoes, 'I think you will need to take those off.'

Joe - Oh, sorry. I was digging yesterday.

H.O. shows Joe to the utility room and what does she see? (scary music starts playing in the background


PLUMBERS CRACK


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Did you accidentally post on the wrong thread? 

You seem very intimidated by my two word command.


It's okay,


I'll be gentle when I get my results. Promise. :no:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> Good sting. That one guy who said the W/H might explode and take down part of the garage should be charged with attempted fraud of some sort. He was a low-life.


Yea it's too bad that they didn't do it like they did with the child molesters and have them taken down as they walked out the door... :thumbup:

It would have been sweet to see them turn to leave and come face to face with the state department of consumer protection or, the board of plumbing examiners or, whatever they are called in your state... :laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> PLUMBERS CRACK


ROFLMAO.... :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Yea it's too bad that they didn't do it like they did with the child molesters and have them taken down as they walked out the door... :thumbup:
> 
> It would have been sweet to see them turn to leave and come face to face with the state department of consumer protection or, the board of plumbing examiners or, whatever they are called in your state... :laughing:


The CSLB here in California has been doing stings recently where they do just that. It's pretty refreshing to see an unlicensed hack in handcuffs. 






Pau


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

First thing I want to know is why are they calling a drain cleaning company? Not saying anything against y'all and start sh*t, just saying... I mean if it is arizona, do you have to have a plumbing license to do drain work?

Second that master plumber said there's nothing wrong with the heater... don't know bout you but never been to keen on any heater labeled GE.

Third... do they really get earthquakes I'm Arizona? If the flex connectors really are for that shouldn't there be strapping or bracing on the heater itself. Would copper flex lines really be the best choice to use in that situation being how they are semi rigid?

But the two were crooks, plain and simple.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> ??????????


 

Trust me; you know how I write. I asked all the right questions. But I did leave out all the speculative questions you just poised. 


I want straight facts, no BS.


It's rare I have a clipboard in my posession, but always when I'm going back into the house to collect. It's my way of using it to write on, hand over candy, a pen, some business cards to finalize the time spent at the home.


When I get a response... I won't be shy.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

First of all just because MSNBC says they overpaid 6 out of 10 times doesn't mean it's true, after all, ... it is MSNBC. 

It really pisses me off they way they did this. It's not that the guilty should not have been exposed, they certainly should have, but why weren't the honorable service men shown giving a correct and proper diagnosis? The answer is that this is a hit piece that they know will score a home run with the audience. We were shown 3 crooks and told that 60% "overcharged". As PC said, overcharged based on what? 

I think most of you swallowed exactly what they were serving. The only outcome of this is that the the entire industry, once again, gets painted with the same scummy brush. When I go to work on Monday, how much crap will I have to put up with from ho's who hold me in suspicion before I ever open my mouth?


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

You know darn well I have argued with a certain individual with deceptive practices. I made many posts, while many chose not to get involved at all.

Widdershins had the guts to call it what it is, while some defended him. Those are the ones you need to be educating.

Today we had a call that 'could have been a sting.' Out of town H.O. from three hours away calls last night at 7:00 p.m. to request estimate on WH. Long story short, her A/C froze up because renters left A/C set at 55. Franchise HVAC/Plumbing Co. goes out there. Unit is above 50 gallon lowboy WH. A/C guy tells her there is water in her pan & floor, and by the way, your G.Disposal needs to be replaced.

I asked her if she knew how old her WH was - 8 yrs. I asked her what floor her condo. is on - 1st. I asked what type of shut-off valve - ball valve. Is it vacant for extended periods of time? - yes. Do you faithfully shut the water off to your unit? - yes, always!

Did they give you a price? Yes May I ask what it is? I'd rather not say. The reason I am asking is because if it is lower, then I would want to make sure it is a complete price. I explain our WH price includes alum pan & thermal expansion valve. Also explained, we can look at it for $45.00 and let her know if it is leaking.

2nd issue - did they tell you why the G.Disp. needed to be replaced? They said the bottom was all corroded.

She arrives in town today. Water heater is not leaking, water still on top of water heater, floor, etc. Quite obvious from thawing out A/C unit. Clean up water. Turned water back. Opened panel. Test elements, T-stats etc. No leaks, no problems.

On to G.Disposal - no corrosion, no leaking.

We don't have a one hour minimum, so she was charged a Flat Rate of $75.00. Does that make us a thief?

If we were inclined to be deceptive, and we aren't, we very well could have said that the water in the pan was not a good sign. Since the WH is 8 years old, should replace it anyway.

We don't operate that way. Explained water heater is working, not leaking now. If she would like a price to replace it, we would be happy to give her one. 

And no, your two words don't bother me. I find it personally offensive when you try to paint all Flat-Raters with the same broad brush.

I could very easily have said they must be T & M because they were standing around doing nothing. Why does the T & M plumber care? He gets paid by the minute no matter how long the job takes!


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> The only outcome of this is that the the *entire industry, once again, gets painted with the same scummy brush*. When I go to work on Monday, how much crap will I have to put up with from ho's who hold me in suspicion before I ever open my mouth?


Exactly and that's what pisses me of the most! :yes:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> I could very easily have said they must be T & M because they were standing around doing nothing. Why does the T & M plumber care? He gets paid by the minute no matter how long the job takes!


 

And if the response comes back that they were all Time and Material plumbing companies,



you have the 1up you're looking for.


You already know I won't spin the facts. It'll be what it is, straight from them. 


I asked them questions that would never implicate or coerce them to lie about it. 

There are some things that are just facts, and I guarantee that when they based the "overcharging" aspect, they didn't just go off what the 4 other ones said,

they probably did a consensus of numerous plumbing companies to achieve a "range"...

not what it takes for your personal company to be profitable.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

*Originally Posted by Dunbar Plumbing


That means if I show up for 10 minutes, up to that first hour, I'm collecting for my time and knowledge. *

Hey thats great that you charge for your time and knowledge, and make money... Im all for that. But how exactly is charging an hour for 10 minutes worth of work any different than a FR company charging 3 hours for a task that sometimes takes 2? By that double standard, who is actually "overcharging". 

Just sayin'.


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

I will say this much, down here, those flex connectors are not allowed by code. They are considered M copper (are they really? That is what the inspectors say). Anytime I go to someones house that has any flex connector on their water heater leaking, I always recommend changing both to rigid copper, don't trust them. That "sting" msnbc did doesn't seem right to me, as someone said earlier the heater didn't have any strapping on it so it doesn't seem like those connectors are required. Would I be one of the ones labeled as a thief if I recommend replacing those connectors (Just loose or not, how am I to know "how" it got loose, I don't want that kind of liability hanging over my head, or my bosses for that matter. )?


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

> DUNBAR PLUMBING said:
> 
> 
> > And if the response comes back that they were all Time and Material plumbing companies, you have the 1up you're looking for.
> ...


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I want to know how old the water heater is. Who they called? Why they chose to call the specific companies?I want to know if they received money from other plumbing companies as advertising.


Step one discover where the leak is coming form a simple fix like that we would have charged only a servie fee and walked away.
However if the heater is 12 years or older we ask how the customer feels about preventive measures. Heaters here last 10-12 years on average.

Hopefully msnbc turned off the power before they let that heater leak from the the top on purpose.

Not one tech look at the power first. They were not real plumbers and that is the worst impresson that will be given to the public. Handymen working as plumbers

Lastly I want to know if the plumbing companies immediately dismissed those hacks.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

what is overcharging by the way?


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

Richard Hilliard said:


> what is overcharging by the way?



Any amount of money over that of a Big Mac meal. It is okay, however, for Starbucks to charge $7 for a cup of coffee. Why isn't msnbc looking into "Coffee scaming"?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

ckoch407 said:


> *Originally Posted by Dunbar Plumbing*
> 
> 
> *That means if I show up for 10 minutes, up to that first hour, I'm collecting for my time and knowledge. *
> ...


 
*They know going into the call, making a well thought out decision BEFORE I ARRIVE that I'm costing $$$.$$ much to arrive at that doorstep, identify/correct the problem and be on my merry way, with not even a hint that I'm giving my services away, offering BS free estimates, which is essentially sticking your foot in the door when they try to close it.*


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## Hoozycoozy (Apr 26, 2011)

ckoch407 said:


> Originally Posted by Dunbar Plumbing
> 
> That means if I show up for 10 minutes, up to that first hour, I'm collecting for my time and knowledge.
> 
> ...


To me as long as the ho agrees to terms before hand I don't believe anything is "over charging"...

Some clothing companies charge $200 for a shirt, you can buy a different shirt for $50. Is the more expensive company over charging? Or is it just a better quality that demands more money? I don't have to buy expensive shirts, the same as ho's don't have to use expensive plumbers..


Now companies that charge 4 hour minimums are a different story.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> *They know going into the call, making a well thought out decision BEFORE I ARRIVE that I'm costing $$$.$$ much to arrive at that doorstep, identify/correct the problem and be on my merry way, with not even a hint that I'm giving my services away, offering BS free estimates, which is essentially sticking your foot in the door when they try to close it.*


I dont like "free" estimates either, but how is that sticking your foot in the door thats trying to be closed when it was also offered over the phone and the customer consented? And, by your own standard, a FR price is also given and the customer must consent before proceeding. So I fail to see the difference is all Im saying.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Hoozycoozy said:


> To me as long as the ho agrees to terms before hand I don't believe anything is "over charging"...
> 
> Some clothing companies charge $200 for a shirt, you can buy a different shirt for $50. Is the more expensive company over charging? Or is it just a better quality that demands more money? I don't have to buy expensive shirts, the same as ho's don't have to use expensive plumbers..
> 
> ...


Dude, youre preaching to the choir. Simply trying to understand what seems like a double standard to me.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

ckoch407 said:


> I dont like "free" estimates either, but how is that sticking your foot in the door thats trying to be closed when it was also offered over the phone and the customer consented? And, by your own standard, a FR price is also given and the customer must consent before proceeding. So I fail to see the difference is all Im saying.


 

Let me explain,



There is no such thing as a "free lunch". 

There is no such thing as "free" when it comes to anything in business; someone paid for it, somehow someway somewhere.


When we all know that the economy has made it extremely difficult for the majority these days, when you hear of someone driving around burning up $4.00+ a gallon fuel, offering not only their time but their money, dedication to possibly a million other things other than talking the trade,


There's motive. There's the potential gain of convincing that customer that 'since you stopped by at no cost to me' attitude that you've now created a different acceptance of your services.

I don't want that, don't need it and the odds are stacked against you that you won't get the job. Some will, but how many dry run trips did it take to get that job? 

I cannot afford to go around burning up tanks of fuel wondering if I'm going to work or not. I'm arm's reach from my phone 99% of the time, calling those shots whether I'm on another job getting work done, laying in my bed or driving to my next call. 

We don't show up unless we're getting paid. That's my business model and that's how the bills get paid. (Well, if I wasn't carrying 2 other co's in their off season)

Bottom line, 

I'm the guy that gets called a lot when those plumbers have wasted theirs driving around telling people how they will fix their plumbing, and then I get on the phone almost like a dictator telling them what's going to go down.

I'm a take control and run the show type of person, make it happen persona that drives hard at getting commitments from customers. You have to remember the #1 which is they called you. That means they want you to do work. Have to mold that situation that fits the best representation of your company, your personal beliefs, you're willingness to work hard and your expert knowledge on what you are doing.


Everything you read didn't come from a flat rate book. I don't need one. I built this company from zero and I've relied on myself from the go. Just because the body is failing doesn't mean the mind is. 

I get people telling me I should sell my methods... I toy with that idea but I'm probably taking a lot of it to the grave. Sometimes the message works best with the messenger and lots of unrealistic folks when they pay X to get Y. 

It don't happen overnight and that's what everyone wants. It doesn't work that way in business if you're in it for the long haul.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Hey I get that your honest, a hard worker, and successful by your own measure. Thats awesome. 

But:
1. I still dont get the difference in "billing in excess of earnings", if you will, by charging for an hour when work was less, or billing a FR item that figures 3 hours if it only took two. They are both one and the same, so why the beef when FR companies do it?

2. Are you saying everyone who gives "free" estimates are ripping people off? (again, I dont like "free" estimates either for many reasons). Just seems like in this context it is used to single out large operations and not the idiot mom and pops who do it as well.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

ckoch407 said:


> Hey I get that your honest, a hard worker, and successful by your own measure. Thats awesome.
> 
> But:
> 1. I still dont get the difference in "billing in excess of earnings", if you will, by charging for an hour when work was less, or billing a FR item that figures 3 hours if it only took two. They are both one and the same, so why the beef when FR companies do it?
> ...


 
That's true, my own measure. I never compare to anyone else because it isn't going to work.


You know, I know that this investigative reporting has going to have hard roots tied back to flat rate pricing. You know that, I know that. It's going to be one of the main reasons it's on tv, lambasting us plumbers, giving us another reason why we justify our pricing.

I both flate rate and charge hourly, depending on the task. I've lost more calls to flat rate then ever hourly. 

Give them a flat price, they have the threshold to now beat it. 

What kills flat rate is guys that give a price, basically run from the truck to the house/fixture, do it as fast as they can because they know the next one sits to be done, and the faster you work, the more you can make in flat rate.

When a customer sees this, whether it's $120 or $400 and the materials are the minimum of that cost, people get hellbent angry, remorseful over those types of charges,

then they start looking up your company name,

and then they see complaints, 

and then they feel victimized, completely. That doesn't hold for all, but for some it's the wheel that turns dangerously for us that give the fair shake to the customer.

My pricing is almost ballpark average to the majority of my competition, plus 15%. 

That means I'm an edge above because I know the responses/remarks I get when I do work for others. 

If I'm at a house for only ten minutes and I've charged 3 figures for my time?


Better believe I'm asking the customer, "Is there anything else you'd like us to look at or fix? You've paid up to the hour." <<< That statement is very constructive, offers the value of what you're willing to do, as it's part of a verbal contract. Do I count every minute like people do pennies? Not always, 

and I'm notorious for cutting back to the half hour, taking a 15 minute hit as "first time customer discount" to let them know I care, and I'd like you as a customer in the future. Rare that I shave the clock on the second/return. 

Somewhere I've made it back through materials. 


To your free estimate question: 


The majority play that free estimate as a game. Roto Rooter is one of those companies that offers no information over the phone, but they will instantly send one or two techs to your home, for free and give you an on site estimate.


I will give free estimates if it is close by and a repeat customer, nothing else. Depends on the task, (has to be something that requires that design) and I will not free estimate "leaks in ceilings, bases of toilets". 

The consumer, just like you are, know that anyone that drives around for free has to make up for that time, always. And the costs incurred.


You just now have put yourself into the category of "high priced salesman" and calling yourself a plumber, because you're next landing of a job is based on whether you get the job or not.

I've taken my reputation and put it to good use. The majority call me because I've either worked for them before, someone they know, or they've scanned the damn near million words I've put on the internet. 

I'm reaching the level where you can type my company name and any topic that's plumbing related, and you'll find my conversations/opinions dating back to 2002, burned into the internet forever.

Why does any company with a good reputation to their customers need to offer themselves at no cost, just to gain a sale?


It answers its own question. 

I've said enough on this subject. Plumbers are taking a huge hit sunday. It's going to hurt and there's no one to blame but ourselves, knowing that "some" of us don't put our customers as first priority, and worrying about our bass boats, child's saxophone for school and bumping the numbers where these very same consumers get their lime light and make it known.

It's going to leave a mark... people will never remember the crying ceo of roto rooter earlier this year caring about his employees...


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## PeckPlumbing (Mar 19, 2011)

How did this thread turn into such an argument?


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

True that. Not looking forward to the negative impact this will have. At the same time, folks know that not everyone is a crook and will appreciate having someone they can trust even more.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

One other thing to ponder. How did he find these plumbers? Did he go look for the companies with the most complaints against them to call? Did he call more companies then he's showing and only show the worst ones? We all know if he did this and eight out of ten companies correctly diagnosed the problem he'd have no show.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Someone really needs to define "overcharging". I just can not comprehend that word. 

I have a fortune invested in my company. I purchased a commercial property, with a nice office and warehouse. A new truck. Camera. Pro Press. On and on. I can meet a client or insurance agent in my office. (not at my kitchen table). I can easily diagnose a drain problem. (properly). 

I DO NOT want to work for wages. I want to be compensated for my time, investment, and expertise. Who determines that a Licensed, honest, hard working plumber can not earn as much as an attorney or physician? I fully intend to. :yes:

Chris Hansen is obviously a jergoff. Screw him.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Richard Hilliard said:


> I want to know how old the water heater is. Who they called? Why they chose to call the specific companies?I want to know if they received money from other plumbing companies as advertising.
> 
> 
> Step one discover where the leak is coming form a simple fix like that we would have charged only a servie fee and walked away.
> ...


 I have this sneaking suspicion that all of the Plumbers called for this sting were chosen based on the number of complaints from the local BBB.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Is this something new? Is this something that has not happened before and been done by virtually every sector of contracting? What about all the crooked lawyers, accountants, politicians, bankers and old Bernie Madoff himself not to mention all the crooked journalists most of which seem to be employed by MSNBC. It's a sensationalistic crap piece of reporting that in no way accurately represents the plumbing trade. Wonder how many honest plumbers showed up and never made it to film because that's not what sells is it? 
Geno, I suspect you are correct. ​


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

What some of you do is nothing new and the majority of us already do .As far as speed completing the job again this has nothing to do with anything. What I get from the complaining about the speed of another plumber, or other trades person is you are milking time for job thinking that time equals dollars and that is opposite to the idea that flat rate rips people off. This would indicate that time and material is a rip off due to working slower than you should. I want to make it perfectly clear I do not believe time and material or flat rate is a rip off. Hopefully this will show how ridiculous that statement is concerning a rip off system.
I would say the only difference is I am not waiting for a non professional to tell me when there are other things wrong. That is my profession and my expertise. We complain about home owners doing their own work yet we will not help them discover, we do not give them information, and in the long run we do not help the customer get rid of problems they may have in the near future unless he or she remembers or understands their plumbing system. I am not sure about you but the majority of my customers can not seem to turn a screwdriver to tighten a loose door knob and I expect them to tell me when they are experiencing minor plumbing problems?
Personally I do not drive around losing jobs to a lesser qualified cheaper plumber or handyman. I close 95-98% of the service calls, in another thread 70% was considered good. I do not misdiagnose, I have made mistakes in my diagnostics, and I am only human. I will not sell something that is not necessary or needed in a customer’s home. I will suggest preventive measures that will in the long run save the customer time and money.

In the Hansen video;
I would have fixed the leak on the top for our service charge
I would have checked the elements and thermostats
I would have checked power to make sure the element size fit the breaker size for the best efficiency
I would have asked questions to discover if the present heater was sufficient for the family
I would have suggested the removal of the flex lines due to my experience with pin holes and leakage of that particular product. I would have prefaced that to the customer that is it my opinion.
I would have checked the age and informed the customer of the age and projected life expectancy.
I would have offered my inspection of their home and replaced aerators, adjusted any item in their home for free that is minor in my estimation such as hair in a pop-up or opening the pop-up more to allow better flow.
None of this is time wasting, all of this would be covered in my time spent with a customer, and none of this is gouging the customer. It is exceeding the customers’ expectations and it is building a long term relationship with our company.
I would welcome an investigation to what I do. It would only serve to bring to light what every customer should receive and expect to receive from any service provider that wants to earn the right to do business with the consumer.
I use the term you in general and does not indicate any one in this forum


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

It must not be in my area. I just scrolled the the guide and I don't see it. Do you know the exact name of the show?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Someone really needs to define "*overcharging*". I just can not comprehend that word.
> 
> I have a fortune invested in my company. I purchased a commercial property, with a nice office and warehouse. A new truck. Camera. Pro Press. On and on. I can meet a client or insurance agent in my office. (not at my kitchen table). I can easily diagnose a drain problem. (properly).
> 
> ...


Overcharging: Charging a consumer for services that were not ordered and/or not performed and/or not consented to.


What it is not: Charging more than 90% of the other contractors in town.

What it is not: Knowingly charging for services and/or materials that were not needed and/or served no benefit to the consumer. (That would be "Fraud" not "over charging".)


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Isn't it amazing how so many became critical of this show, almost defending the plumbing companies that are clearly shown misrepresenting the problem, standing around, 


clipboard in hand wanting a signature to perform a work duty that doesn't even represent the actual,


and did you see the lucky plumber who is the plant, the one who verifies what was wrong to begin with?

He was probably hand picked as the most reliable, most honest plumber in the area. Wanna bet a grand on that PlumbCrazy?


The show stated they got those plumbers *online*. << That should be a hardcore statement to all of you who think having exposure on the internet is not necessary.

Really don't care if you're slammed with work or not; situations change, either through work methods or relationships, and now you're hunting for work. I'd rather be turning down work constantly and staying busy than taking every call that rolls through the door and dealing with the bad. That's what happens when you think reeling every fish out of the lake is a good one. It's not.


Oh and if anyone thinks I was typing mad last night, I wasn't. I was however upset toward the end of the night when I found out mcdonalds changed their honey mustard. <<< That, is grounds for uncontrolled furor. :furious::furious::furious::furious:

They have messed with that product 3 times now, this one is like watered down and isn't good at all. It sucks. Time to go global with my view. 


Wait, already did. :laughing:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> The show stated they got those plumbers *online*. << That should be a hardcore statement to all of you who think having exposure on the internet is not necessary.


 Getting them "online" could mean a number of things.

First thing that comes to mind is that they did a web search for reviews of Plumbing Contractors for the Metro area being covered and then cherry picked for those with the most negative reviews.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

> DUNBAR PLUMBING said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't it amazing how so many became critical of this show, almost defending the plumbing companies that are clearly shown misrepresenting the problem, standing around,
> ...


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Widdershins said:


> Getting them "online" could mean a number of things.
> 
> First thing that comes to mind is that they did a web search for reviews of Plumbing Contractors for the Metro area being covered and then cherry picked for those with the most negative reviews.


 

So you're saying it's a conspiracy, that the Hansen Files did not randomly pick plumbers but instead intentionally picked out "badly reviewed" plumbers to make a sensational show? 


Go to my username on this forum, click on it, hit "view more posts by this member" and 

start searching out of my 3,400+ posts where I've complained about other plumbers, whether in service or new construction that continually do shoddy workmanship,

how I'm constantly gaining work from other plumbers weekly, all because someone wasn't doing their job right.


That 6 to 10 ratio almost jives with the nonsense I deal with in my area.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> So you're saying it's a conspiracy, that the Hansen Files did not randomly pick plumbers but instead intentionally picked out "badly reviewed" plumbers to make a sensational show?


 You're being facetious, right?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> So you're saying it's a conspiracy, that the Hansen Files did not randomly pick plumbers but instead intentionally picked out "badly reviewed" plumbers to make a sensational show?


Do you think they would waste time doing it randomly? :whistling2:

Of course they stacked the deck for good tv!


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> > Dunbar, what makes you think I am on the opposite side?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

*What is missing in this thread?*

I have been reading this thread, and have noticed one glaring problem. If it has been addressed I did not see it. 

We can argue prices, comparison, who is right and wrong, but let's get to the heart of the issue. 

You get a call, you go to the house, the homeowner tells you that there is a leak at the water heater. 

For all you know no one has touched this thing, nothing has happened, but there is a leak. 

How did it happen? Did the flex line miraculously loosen itself? I don't know flex lines that well, do they often loosen up on their own? :laughing::whistling2:

What plumber in their right mind would tighten that thing up, and walk away. Unless I am mistaken, leaks do not appear without cause. You would have to surmise that a washer has gone bad, or someone has messed with it. 

If a flex line was leaking when I walked in I would at the very least replace it. For all I know the damn thing has gone bad, and I will not stick my neck out for a 'used product'. I don't put any trust into used products. The customer is paying for a service, and that is what they are going to get. Another thing if that heater is over 12 years old, I would recommend a replacement, but not push it, if it appears to be in good condition. 



As for Hansen, I would tear him a new one right there on the spot, for all the world to see, although it would get edited out. 
Q. How long have you been a plumber Hansen?
Q. Do you know what kind of unnecessary damage, and or problems you have created by leaking water on this heater? 
Q. What is your basis for "Over charged"? 
Q. Have you ever run a business, or know what it costs to bring a qualified tech to the door?
Q. Who is the "Master Plumber" you called in for expert opinion? Is he going to pay for unnecessarily creating potential mold problems, by knowingly causing a water leak?
Q. What's you "Master Plumbers" license number, and company name? I might want to turn him in for neglect. 
Q. Is every company you called properly licensed, insured, and qualified?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Widdershins said:


> You're being facetious, right?





Redwood said:


> Do you think they would waste time doing it randomly? :whistling2:
> 
> Of course they stacked the deck for good tv!





DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> *Go to my username on this forum, click on it, hit "view more posts by this member" and *
> 
> *start searching out of my 3,400+ posts where I've complained about other plumbers, whether in service or new construction that continually do shoddy workmanship,*
> 
> ...


.......


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> And here you are, questioning the integrity of a master plumber, knowing the truth that the loose connection is the problem?


 From where I'm sitting, this so called Master Plumber created a potentially hazardous condition and is guilty of malpractice.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Widdershins said:


> From where I'm sitting, this so called Master Plumber created a potentially hazardous condition and is guilty of malpractice.


 












Pick one.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Indie said:


> How did it happen? Did the flex line miraculously loosen itself? I don't know flex lines that well, do they often loosen up on their own? :laughing::whistling2:


 I've never seen them loosen, but I have seen instances where the rubber washer disintegrated


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Pick one.


 Definitely the bendy straw.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Widdershins said:


> Definitely the bendy straw.


 
I always liked them too.


I'm off to fight kohler tub faucet into a wall.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

> DUNBAR PLUMBING said:
> 
> 
> > PlumbCrazy said:
> ...


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## Baloo (May 5, 2011)

I'll try and watch the show, but only for its entertainment value, not for its investigative reporting. No matter what industry you are in, there are rip-off artists, and the good companies. The bad news is that you can be consider what you are not, just by taking a few things out of context.

Flat Rate Pricing is no different then a Brick. It is just a tool that sits there doing nothing until someone picks it up. A brick can be used to break a window, or to build a hospital. Flat Rate Pricing can be used to grossly over charge the customer like a hospital, or it can be used to set the customer's mind at ease by knowing what the price will be before anything is started, and what I really like is we both now don't have to worry about watching the clock. The customer can go do something they want to do, and no long have to worry about making sure I'm working, and not just running the clock up. And because I'm not a genius with all the answers on how to do a job instantly, I can take the time to think about the best way do do something with the materials I have available.

Sometimes I'm like Indian Jones, "I don't know, I'm making this up as I go." and MacGyver, especially on Friday nights, and the customer's party starts in a couple of hours, and I'm not on the guest list.

FYI on prices. 30 years ago I had a summer job traveling to festivals selling sunglasses. We paid less then .50 cents a pair for them. We couldn't sell a pair to save our life when we had them priced at $1.00. An old timer told us we were way too cheap, so we raised the price. In the end we found if we sold them for $5.00, we couldn't keep them in stock.

The sad thing is I had to learn this lesson the hard way again with my business. No matter what you charge someone will always think you're too expensive, but I have less complaints about the cost of a job since I stopped trying to give everyone a "Deal", and started charging enough to make a small profit...i.e. take a vacation, and get a new mini van every 5 years. I don't condone charging like a hospital that gets a new wing every 5 years, just for clarification.

As a newbie here, I just want to clarify, I am writing this just to put my nickles worth for those who are just lurking here, and worry about 'Over charging'. If you compare what my Dad made an hour verses the cost of goods, back in the sixties, to what we make an hour now verses the cost of goods, most of us good double our prices, and still come up short.


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## PlumberShep (Sep 22, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> and did you see the lucky plumber who is the plant, the one who verifies what was wrong to begin with?
> 
> He was probably hand picked as the most reliable, most honest plumber in the area. Wanna bet a grand on that PlumbCrazy?


He may be honest and reliable but, if he thinks the only problem with that heater install is a loose nut, he is not very knowledgeable or experienced.Paper thin flex connects are not a sign of quality.It would have failed inspection here due to the sharkbite on the T&P line.I'm not even going to get started on the brand name of the heater.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

A better set-up would have been using a brand new water heater, brand name, plumbed to code with the H.O. calling about a leak saying she just purchased the home and has no idea how old it is.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

GE heaters are made by Rheem, not a bad heater imo 

its the Whirlpool heaters that are the worst


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

GREENPLUM said:


> GE heaters are made by Rheem, not a bad heater imo
> 
> its the Whirlpool heaters that are the worst


Whirlpool aren't so bad anymore, don't know about the current heaters with new valves however. Pretty much any electric heater is going to be the same...

Brand name doesn't mean much on heaters down here, it's all what you could afford 5-6 years ago, the flex connectors are the biggest problem, wouldn't put it past that being the plumber that did that house that was the plant.


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

GE and whirlpool are both made by second tier manufactures (ie American) and bought in lots to get the cheapest price period...
Do you honestly think that any major mfg. would allow their case to be replaced and sold at a box store for what WE PAY for a heater at the warehouse...
I think not, cause if we caught wind of that I'm sure more of us would be installing those POS...


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

plumb nutz said:


> GE and whirlpool are both made by second tier manufactures (ie American) and bought in lots to get the cheapest price period...
> Do you honestly think that any major mfg. would allow their case to be replaced and sold at a box store for what WE PAY for a heater at the warehouse...
> I think not, cause if we caught wind of that I'm sure more of us would be installing those POS...


Down here our cost on a heater is only a few dollars difference over or under big box stores, when I need parts for big box heaters I usually get them from a supply house off corresponding heater.


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## PlumberShep (Sep 22, 2010)

GREENPLUM said:


> GE heaters are made by Rheem, not a bad heater imo
> 
> its the Whirlpool heaters that are the worst


Right you are.I mis-spoke on the brand.I was under the impression that the GE's were rebranded American heaters.(like the whirlpools)


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

504, direct me to the sub section in our code book were it states that flex connecters are against code here. I am not saying your are wrong it has been a little bit since I have thumbed through our code.

I for one don't use them because it just looks bad. I tore a heater out last week that had them on it and I re piped in rigid. I have seen a ton of new houses that have to be inspected up here with flexes installed, but it could be just the inspectors ignorance.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

I've always used flexes. For quite a few years, I've kept to the SS ones whenever I could get them. 

Yes, they do loosen and leak. I've had to go in and tighten them quite a few times (not my own.) Sometimes, it may be because they weren't tight enough in the first place. 

But around here, even the copper ones usually outlast the water heater - but DIYers always re-use them. I don't.

And I take umbrage with those who complain about Starbucks.

I make espresso at home and I can say that it takes about the same amount of coffee to make one espresso as it does to make an 8-12 cup potful in a regular machine. And the Starbucks bold that I use to make it is a whole lot nicer than those 8 O'clock bridge sweepings. 

Further, I'm not sure if it's just where you people live or if you're getting some really bizarre coffee, but a Mocha Venti has always been under $4 when I bought it. I have to pay about $2.50 for a cup of plain jane Farmer Brothers at the local greasy spoon. 

Starbucks would be the last place I'd complain about prices. But then, I like Starbucks. I wish my customers liked me as much as I like Starbucks.


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

Plumberman said:


> 504, direct me to the sub section in our code book were it states that flex connecters are against code here. I am not saying your are wrong it has been a little bit since I have thumbed through our code.
> 
> I for one don't use them because it just looks bad. I tore a heater out last week that had them on it and I re piped in rigid. I have seen a ton of new houses that have to be inspected up here with flexes installed, but it could be just the inspectors ignorance.


I would have to pull it out and find it, you are in Shreveport correct? Orleans and Jefferson parish have their own amended code that prohibits the use of them, they are afterall M copper, try running M copper for potable water and see what happens lol.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

504Plumber said:


> I would have to pull it out and find it, you are in Shreveport correct? Orleans and Jefferson parish have their own amended code that prohibits the use of them, they are afterall M copper, try running M copper for potable water and see what happens lol.


East of Shreveport in Monroe. 

I'll look when I get a chance. I just set for the ASME 6010 course and the ASME IX cert today. (Medical Gas) won't know anything till next week. Hope I pulled it off.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Water Heaters...

I kinda see them like this at least for gas steel tank type water heaters...
I don't think electric matters nearly as much except for some of the stupid ones like the Energy Smart...

#1: Bradford White, Lochinvar

#2: Rheem, Ruud, Richmond

#3: GE, they are made by Rheem but, to Home Depot specs.... :whistling2:

#4: The AO Smith family of brands...
AO Smith, American, Apollo, GSW, John Woods, Reliance, State...:thumbdown:

If the customer is interested in a good stainless steel tank unit the HT Products Phoenix is a good one.


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

Plumberman said:


> East of Shreveport in Monroe.
> 
> I'll look when I get a chance. I just set for the ASME 6010 course and the ASME IX cert today. (Medical Gas) won't know anything till next week. Hope I pulled it off.


Best of luck to you. I am a mostly service plumber down here, so the odds of me needing any of those is pretty slim, I do want to get my backflow and gas sometime in the future though, heard any of the mechanical tests down here are fairly rough ( a lot worse than that goofy journeyman was.)


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

504Plumber said:


> Best of luck to you. I am a mostly service plumber down here, so the odds of me needing any of those is pretty slim, I do want to get my backflow and gas sometime in the future though, heard any of the mechanical tests down here are fairly rough ( a lot worse than that goofy journeyman was.)


The 6010 is a lot of info thrown at you in 32 hours of class study. The test is 100 questions closed book, so you have to be on your game when test day hits.

Guy I work with sat for his backflow today, he said it wasn't hard at all, but it could be different down there. We took them at Local 141 in Shreveport. Won't be long and I'm heading to Baton Rouge to give the masters a shot.


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

Plumberman said:


> The 6010 is a lot of info thrown at you in 32 hours of class study. The test is 100 questions closed book, so you have to be on your game when test day hits.
> 
> Guy I work with sat for his backflow today, he said it wasn't hard at all, but it could be different down there. We took them at Local 141 in Shreveport. Won't be long and I'm heading to Baton Rouge to give the masters a shot.


I've heard backflow is pretty easy, good luck on all your certs man. I have high ass daycare bills to overcome before I can think about taking anymore tests or going on my own.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Thanks man,

My local is paying the bill for everything but my masters. Just getting that in case I need it, plus I like a challenge!


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## 504Plumber (Jan 26, 2011)

Plumberman said:


> Thanks man,
> 
> My local is paying the bill for everything but my masters. Just getting that in case I need it, plus I like a challenge!


How does that work, do you get to keep it active (if you do and still able to work union, do you have to carry the liability ins.? Not sure if the whole two masters not allowed to work with each other on the same job applies in union.) or are you going to keep it inactive. 

The masters is only written right? I really liked the shop portion of journeyman...


----------



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

504Plumber said:


> How does that work, do you get to keep it active (if you do and still able to work union, do you have to carry the liability ins.? Not sure if the whole two masters not allowed to work with each other on the same job applies in union.) or are you going to keep it inactive.
> 
> The masters is only written right? I really liked the shop portion of journeyman...


You can only activate your masters if you plan on doing work on your own. You have to keep them inactive while working for another master, that's non union and union, it's a state law. 

So I would have to keep them inactive... Yeah the masters is three written parts. Has business law in there and the two other parts are on code, sizing systems and practical kinda like parts of the journeyman, just a little more difficult.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

*Omg*

Oh no,










I cannot believe what I'm watching right now.



We are so freeking screwed.:blink:


----------



## Hoozycoozy (Apr 26, 2011)

Maybe this golf runs way over and it isn't aired.... I'm all for exposing crooks, but not at the expense of the entire industry...


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Oh no,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea I'm seeing it on next on Dateline on the main NBC network...

Not MSNBC!

Tomorrow we get to meet the customers that watched....


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Yea I'm seeing it on next on Dateline on the main NBC network...
> 
> Not MSNBC!
> 
> Tomorrow we get to meet the customers that watched....


 

I'm taking off work tomorrow, just fielding calls. Only because I cannot walk at this point.


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Do you think it will air in it's entirety after golf?


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Knowing that minute to win it is a piece of garbage show.... yes.

They need to take that show off. NBC just isn't worth a damn for prime time shows anymore.


----------



## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Stupid golf... Hey, I'm all for playing the sport... But (and I can't believe I'm saying this...) I WANT TO WATCH DATELINE!!!


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

U666A said:


> Stupid golf... Hey, I'm all for playing the sport... But (and I can't believe I'm saying this...) I WANT TO WATCH DATELINE!!!


Watch that crazy talk. NBC will hear about this and think they have an audience. With the various forums letting plumbers know they might have over 10,000 people watching.


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Yeah, popcorn is getting cold. :laughing:


----------



## Hoozycoozy (Apr 26, 2011)

Here weee go


----------



## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

So, do you think they aired the plumbers who didn't try the scam them? NOPE my brother ran a 12 truck company for years and they never aired any of the times they did a hidden camera deal and they didn't scam them. they only want to air the bad ones. maybe 1 good just to play the stupid people watching. The people that run these shows are almost as bad as the scam artists they catch.


----------



## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

The sad thing is they know that the truth doesn't get them ratings. drama gets them ratings. and ratings means money for them.


----------



## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

I love it 
a leak builds pressure and can killlll you 
I'm gonna start using that LOL


----------



## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

You guys are in trooooouble! :laughing:

What a joke that was.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Wow, they left that show with the showing of 2 plumbers just upselling a heater, not even telling the rest that not "all" were like that.


----------



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Hahah, those guys are dumbarses!


----------



## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

What they just cut out


----------



## Hoozycoozy (Apr 26, 2011)

Well... Didn't air it all... One handy hack, not a plumber... The second guy was just awful. I like how he pointed out that he was giving other repairmen a bad name, slightly indicating not everyone is a crook... 

I don't think the first guy was trying to screw anyone, he just didn't know what he was doing. That's why you call a professional with a REPUTATION you can trust.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

There's about 20+ members watching this thread right now, and another 20-30 guests watching this thread. 

Bottom of the page is why


----------



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

"The water coming out of the heater can build pressure and explode, I went ahead and cut the power off to it so you wouldn't get electrocuted if you step in the water" 

ROTFLMAO!


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

People need to know that there is co's out there that will rip them off, it makes the rest of us look good. I don't care if it's Chris Hansen or Hilrodro Revera, they won't catch me mis-diagnosing any plumbing problem.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Yea they had to cut out the rest of the plumbers because the golf ran over... :laughing:

Your first call tomorrow is someone that watched the show...
Their camera is hidden and running.... :laughing:


----------



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Yea they had toi cut out the rest of the plumbers because the golf ran over... :laughing:
> 
> Your first call tomorrow is someone that watched the show...
> Their camera is hidden and running.... :laughing:


No pressure! Lol


----------



## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

makes me happy to be a new construction plumber :laughing:


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

None of them looked like the franchise guys and none looked like high-pressure flatrate guys either. :laughing: They were both too stupid to be either.


----------



## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

What is comical is that it segway'ed righ into "minute to win it, and the first game called "temper tantrum" which probably closely resembles what the ceo's of most of the featured companies are doing right now...

You suck Chris Hansen!

Never would have had a show if they called UA signatory contractors...

:jester:


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I'm guessing both were unlicensed drain cleaners.

I bet they were shiotting when Hansen came out. "I was just screwing you on the water heater, no pedophilia involved!"


----------



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> There's about 20+ members watching this thread right now, and another 20-30 guests watching this thread.
> 
> Bottom of the page is why


For sure, I hope people are searching right now and come across this forum, maybe search some threads and see that not every plumber is looking to scam them.


----------



## Hoozycoozy (Apr 26, 2011)

Redwood said:


> Yea they had to cut out the rest of the plumbers because the golf ran over... :laughing:
> 
> Your first call tomorrow is someone that watched the show...
> Their camera is hidden and running.... :laughing:


Get ready for your local news stations to capitalize and do their own investigative reporting... A few year ago they actually did one, where they drove to job sites and asked to see licenses... How many licensed plumbers who had their credentials do you think were shown?


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Chris Hansen doesn't suck. Shame shame on some contractors for trying to grab a quick buck and run.

Shame!

Hansen is just exposing the cancer on our industry. What do YOU do to buck that stigma of the A$$ crack showing swindler?


----------



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

u666a said:


> what is comical is that it segway'ed righ into "minute to win it, and the first game called "temper tantrum" which probably closely resembles what the ceo's of most of the featured companies are doing right now...
> 
> You suck chris hansen!
> 
> ...





----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I liked the way he "Called his guy" to get a GE water heater just like it... 

He would have been on the phone longer if he called Home Depot....:laughing:


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I have my guys work like someone is always watching. Someone IS always watching...........


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> Chris Hansen doesn't suck. Shame shame on some contractors for trying to grab a quick buck and run.
> 
> Shame!
> 
> Hansen is just exposing the cancer on our industry. What do YOU do to buck that stigma of the A$$ crack showing swindler?


Wear a belt.  No more A$$ crack showing.


----------



## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Who noticed the paid ad by dunkin coffee


----------



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Wear a belt.  No more A$$ crack showing.


Yeah about that... Lol. My arse aint big enough to hold my jeans up....


----------



## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

I had a customer upset that the crack wasn't showing...
I didn't know how to reply...


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Wear a belt.  No more A$$ crack showing.


I thought you wore bibs.........


----------



## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

The truth is that I wish I had one of them guys video and air me. I would get more work but they will just air the garbage. and sadly the garbage they air will soon be forgotten anyways. people move on to the next program and forget.


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> I thought you wore bibs.........


No bibs, not that Old School.

Wear belts and hire people with good work ethics and morals. That is how you bring up the image of plumbers.


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I saw product placement for Behr paints.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> Who noticed the paid ad by dunkin coffee


The actual ad or, the girls coffee cup in the show?


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Was that a sharkbite on the relief line. They only showed a partial of it in a few frames.

Isn't that a restriction??????


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

I wonder if they found all the repairman on Craigslist. What garage door co. works evenings?


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I don't show Arse Crack unless they pay for it.


----------



## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

The cup in focus


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

http://www.facebook.com/datelinenbc/posts/201988886503363#!/datelinenbc


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Redwood said:


> The actual ad or, the girls coffee cup in the show?


Who the heck looked at her coffee cup?


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> Who the heck looked at her coffee cup?


What were YOU looking at????


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I'll take the 5th. Sorry Mr. Hansen. 

I was in fact looking at the cup......


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> I'll take the 5th. Sorry Mr. Hansen.
> 
> I was in fact looking at the cup......


Typo. Shoulda read Cups:laughing:


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> Typo. Shoulda read Cups:laughing:


I knew damn well what you meant. :yes:


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Dunbar - Did it live up to your expectations?


----------



## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Everyone who didn't notice the blatant product placement are sheep that Madison ave herds to the bank


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

SlickRick said:


> I don't show Arse Crack unless they pay for it.


Do you make the women customers tuck dollar bills in your tool belt for that? :laughing:


----------



## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

That was BULL***T ! Couple of ya hoos , giving too low pricing ! Granted they should have fixed the heater with a pair of locks ,,, BUT ,, now the inside is SOAKED ! Does Hansen give her a new heater ?? 
I just hope my customers don't keep referring to this show for the next 6 months !!


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> Who the heck looked at her coffee cup?


Attention to detail...

I didn't miss a thing... :laughing:

Bet you don't remember the show a while back where she was giving out sweet tea...


----------



## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Uh-oh, Dunby has left the building... With his rifle!


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Dunbar - Did it live up to your expectations?


 
Nope, but the full episode is here when the east coast timelines match up. I sent another email to directly contact the hansen files as well, one that I'm sure won't be overlooked. :thumbup:


----------



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

IL they were C-cups? Lol awesome


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Who sends three guys to diagnose a leaking water heater anyway?


----------



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Who sends three guys to diagnose a leaking water heater anyway?


I said the same thing to my wife... That would be a hefty service call.


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

I try to get Model/Serial numbers on the front end. If it's an old water heater and they are reporting water coming out the top, we come prepared.

None of them appeared to check that info. We have run into a few that burst under warranty . . . ALWAYS let them know the new tank is FREE! Many are grateful because they don't realize it. :yes:


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> I try to get Model/Serial numbers on the front end. If it's an old water heater and they are reporting water coming out the top, we come prepared.
> 
> None of them appeared to check that info. We have run into a few that burst under warranty . . . ALWAYS let them know the new tank is FREE! Many are grateful because they don't realize it. :yes:


The price structure they work under makes them rely on parts markup for profit instead of a labor charge for what the job is really worth... :laughing:

So of course they need to sell a water heater instead of warranting one...:whistling2:


----------



## plumbtastic (Apr 27, 2011)

I'm so good I would have sold them a new water heater and maybe the crew too. probably a few faucets too:whistling2:


----------



## Plantificus (Sep 17, 2009)

I would have quoted to hard pipe the tank with copper, I hate flex connectors.. but then Chris Hansen would come out and say that I was trying to rip her off, I would just tell him that I hate flex connectors because people like you can loosen them that set traps for people... and they look "cheezy"


----------



## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Plantificus said:


> I would have quoted to hard pipe the tank with copper, I hate flex connectors.. but then Chris Hansen would come out and say that I was trying to rip her off, I would just tell him that I hate flex connectors because people like you can loosen them that set traps for people... and they look "cheezy"


I could be wrong but I think I read on here somewhere that in earthquake areas they are required. Please correct me if I'm wrong, western people.


----------



## PlumberDave (Jan 4, 2009)

As far as the HWT went I would have quoted a new flex long before putting a wrench to it. Too many issues with the gasket and plastic in those things. They looked like they were older than the tank at 3 years. But I would have told the HO what the problem was and why I reccomend the repair. Twice this year I have done just that. On the AC I didn't know George was still around but a bit more needed to be done as far as an Inspection / service / maintaince goes or they didn't show it. At least take a look at both ends to see if there is a reason for someone to pull the disconnect.


----------



## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> None of them looked like the franchise guys and none looked like high-pressure flatrate guys either. :laughing: They were both too stupid to be either.


 
I did notice that. What I also noticed was the little George Brazil commercial in the HVAC section. A company that is NOTORIOUS for tactics similar to the ones this show is supposedly exposing. AND the tech. left without charging a penny. What an angel!! I don't know of any franchise where the service tech has the authority to waive charges. Smells like a set-up to me. This would be a great marketing opportunity and what do you be it shows up in commercials and ads? I was not happy at all with this show!






Paul


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

We only had a half hour show, missed the HVAC portion.


----------



## PeckPlumbing (Mar 19, 2011)

rocksteady said:


> I don't know of any franchise where the service tech has the authority to waive charges.
> 
> 
> Paul




I thought GB worked on commission, if the tech doesnt want to get paid, they can waive a job. Or am I wrong?

I thought the show was pretty good. *The cylinder is corroded!* haha


----------



## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> We only had a half hour show, missed the HVAC portion.


They had a guy that wanted $1900 for new coils and another that wanted $5200 for an entire new unit. The George Brazil tech didn't even charge a service call. No other contractor/serviceman did that. Or at least, nobody else was mentioned as doing that. I'm very suspicious of that.






Paul


----------



## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

PeckPlumbing said:


> I thought GB worked on commission, if the tech doesnt want to get paid, they can waive a job. Or am I wrong?
> 
> I thought the show was pretty good. *The cylinder is corroded!* haha


They might but I don't know of any franchise that lets the tech make the decision to leave without any money. A company with the overhead that GB has could never survive doing free diagnostics. Fishy, to say the least. Damn, I'm starting to sound like Dunbar.




Paul


----------



## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

rocksteady said:


> Damn, I'm starting to sound like Dunbar.


 There are worse things. . . . . . . . .:whistling2:


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

rocksteady said:


> I did notice that. What I also noticed was the little George Brazil commercial in the HVAC section. A company that is NOTORIOUS for tactics similar to the ones this show is supposedly exposing. AND the tech. left without charging a penny. What an angel!! I don't know of any franchise where the service tech has the authority to waive charges. Smells like a set-up to me. This would be a great marketing opportunity and what do you be it shows up in commercials and ads? I was not happy at all with this show!
> 
> Paul


He was tipped off by the bike laying in the driveway... :laughing:


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Redwood said:


> He was tipped off by the bike laying in the driveway... :laughing:


You almost have to feel bad for the guy. Laid off from work, trying to support his family, so he turns to plumbing. He said he went with what he knew, curious as to what his background in plumbing is, cause he sure as hell didn't know what he was doing. 

That is a good one, just doing plumbing when all else fails, any idiot can do it.

I missed the airing of the show, but watched it online. Did they only show two companies? I would like to punch that Master Plumber for acting like a know it all dickhead. You see how he rolled his eyes at the price. You telling me 760.00 is too much for a 50 gallon electric heater? Clearly he didn't have one in the truck.


----------



## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Yes, they only showed 2 plumbing companies. I thought the price was more than fair for a new 50 gallon electric.






Paul


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Darn cheap by our prices here...

A G-note is closer to reality....


----------



## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Darn cheap by our prices here...
> 
> A G-note is closer to reality....


He did say he had one exactly like the one she already had though. 

http://www.homedepot.com/Plumbing-W...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

$243 at Homey Deepthroat






Paul


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Darn cheap by our prices here...
> 
> A G-note is closer to reality....


760.00 sounded fine by me, I just didn't like the Master who rolled his eyes at the price. 

I think it would be funny to watch Hansen get beat down for the way he talks to contractors. Would make for great TV. :laughing:

Hansen: How could you charge for a simple repair like that, see I can just do this or that and its fixed? You tried to rip her off? Are you licensed? 

Contractor: (***** slaps Hansen) Who you talking to a$$hole?


----------



## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Indie said:


> Hansen: How could you charge for a simple repair like that, see I can just do this or that and its fixed? You tried to rip her off? Are you licensed?
> 
> Contractor: (***** slaps Hansen) Who you talking to a$$hole?


 
The sad fact is, Chris Hansen made more money doing the "repair" than any of the contractors did.






Paul


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

rocksteady said:


> The sad fact is, Chris Hansen made more money doing the "repair" than any of the contractors did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If he charged her to fix the heater, he violated the law out there I am sure. Why did no one call him out for not being a plumber? 

It does leave me wondering. If I was video taped, would I be happy with my technique? I think I am honest, and never knowingly rip someone off, but a video would sure prove it. 

I know dang well on the same call I would have walked up and been like WTH is going on here? I would have tightened it, and then stood there trying to figure out how it got loose in the first place. No doubt I would have assumed someone was messing with it, and she wouldn't admit it.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

rocksteady said:


> He did say he had one exactly like the one she already had though.
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/Plumbing-W...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
> 
> ...


*Right!*

*Now tell the Home Depot website that your Zip Code is 06854 and watch the price change to $315......* 

That water heater installed will be a G-Note or, they can have Homey install it for less...

I'm okay with that....

I'll let him eat Ramein Noodles for dinner every night...


----------



## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

I didn't even notice where those prices were based on. For my zip of 93446 it goes up to $251. Either HD is insanely cheap or I'm getting railed at my supply house. A 6 yr. A.O. Smith 50 gallon electric costs me just under $400.

I'm putting in a customer supplied Kenmore 50 n/g on Wed because they could get it at OSH for less than I could get mine at my wholesaler. Oh well, no big deal.




Paul


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Then you throw in this...

http://www.bestplaces.net/col/?salary=50000&city1=50455000&city2=50918920

A G-Note is cheap... :laughing:


----------



## DIZ (Nov 17, 2010)

http://www.drainproplumbing.com/drain-cleaning-phoenix.html

call these guys, they make sure your tank wont explode. bwahahahahah


----------



## marc76075 (Nov 24, 2010)

Are thermal expansion tanks not required in AZ? Because if the are that would be pretty stupid of the hand picked plumber to say every thing is good and up to code. That or I didn't notice the tank .....


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

I didn't see any means of thermal expansion, no pan either.

I didn't feel sorry for the guy trying to earn a living . . . probably BS anyway. Isn't that what all handyman say? He could just as easily earned a living as a handyman and leave the plumbing to the pros.

Master Plumber rolling his eyes at price . . . it is high when you factor in the tank should have been free.

Again, I ask why weren't any legit plumbing cos. called? The ones featured are NOT representative of our industry. :no:


----------



## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Darn cheap by our prices here...
> 
> A G-note is closer to reality....


 
Without code upgrades


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

marc76075 said:


> Are thermal expansion tanks not required in AZ? Because if the are that would be pretty stupid of the hand picked plumber to say every thing is good and up to code. That or I didn't notice the tank .....


Under the UPC they are not required unless there is a check on the cold water from the street or the street pressure exceeds 125 psi.

Mark


----------



## marc76075 (Nov 24, 2010)

Thanks for the info


----------



## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

ToUtahNow said:


> Under the UPC they are not required unless there is a check on the cold water from the street or the street pressure exceeds 125 psi.
> 
> Mark


So since an expansion tank is supposed to have equal pressure to the pressure of the building you'd pump it up to 125? 

Code seems to have an issue here....
Don't worry IPC is the same way... but to solve that any pressure over 80 psi gets a new PRV and expansion tank. This doesn't happen until a new water heater is needed though.

In addition, don't most meters have a check built in? Wouldn't make sense if the water went back through after I've already paid for it... wouldn't that damage the meter as well?


----------



## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

plumb nutz said:


> So since an expansion tank is supposed to have equal pressure to the pressure of the building you'd pump it up to 125?
> 
> Code seems to have an issue here....
> Don't worry IPC is the same way... but to solve that any pressure over 80 psi gets a new PRV and expansion tank. This doesn't happen until a new water heater is needed though.
> ...



I think what he means is that, If the city pressure is more than 125 psi the thermal bypass on the PRV would not be effective enough. because at 80psi you would have had to put in a PRV then the outside pressure being that high you would need an expansion tank and charge it to the set pressure of the PRV.


----------



## plumbtastic (Apr 27, 2011)

plumb nutz said:


> So since an expansion tank is supposed to have equal pressure to the pressure of the building you'd pump it up to 125?
> 
> Code seems to have an issue here....
> Don't worry IPC is the same way... but to solve that any pressure over 80 psi gets a new PRV and expansion tank. This doesn't happen until a new water heater is needed though.
> ...


The water meters in my area do not have a built in check valve. The meter will register both directions so your not paying any extra money. 125psi exceeds all the thermal expansion tanks working poressure ratings I've seen but thats what the pressure reducing valve is for to drop the pressure to no more than 80psi putting you in range to set your expansion tanks pressure a few psi above the set water Pressure.


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

plumb nutz said:


> So since an expansion tank is supposed to have equal pressure to the pressure of the building you'd pump it up to 125?
> 
> Code seems to have an issue here....
> Don't worry IPC is the same way... but to solve that any pressure over 80 psi gets a new PRV and expansion tank. This doesn't happen until a new water heater is needed though.
> ...



As far as I know, there is not a meter built that has a built in check. In some areas they use a meter yoke which has a dual check (not to be confused with a double check). I require dual checks on all of our meters yokes for our water company in Utah. However, my homes in Southern California and Nevada do not have anything at the meters.

Mark


----------



## timplmbr (Mar 16, 2011)

PlumbCrazy said:


> I didn't see any means of thermal expansion, no pan either.
> 
> most areas dont require a pan when installed in garage or area where damage may not occur........x tank on the other hand , i know bradford white reccomends them highly on there new water heaters and i belive it is in there installation guides.......


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

master plumbers know how to lay *there* pipe

Their pipe


----------



## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> master plumbers know how to lay *there* pipe
> 
> Their pipe


 
Wrong NH.

He's from TN. You say There pipe while pointing at a pile of pipe.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Who sends three guys to diagnose a leaking water heater anyway?


PCPlumber :laughing:


----------



## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Protech said:


> PCPlumber :laughing:


 
You ever try to waterboard someone by yourself. :jester:


----------



## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

easttexasplumb said:


> You ever try to waterboard someone by yourself. :jester:


Almost messed up my laptop screen on that one. :laughing:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

4500 views is a top ranking thread on here, given the short amount of days it's been up.

I still haven't received a response yet, I believe I'll have to send a second round out to get a response.


I believe the shortened version of the show did more good than bad to plumbers across the country, given the first half was a huge interruption of the golf show, and the editing was horrible on the second half, laying credence to pushing too much too fast in 30 minutes.

The "all bad" content in a row has more value if you show both sides of the battery, positive and negative. 

Somewhere the full show is out there but they've made it impossible to find.

If it's hard for me to find, hell nobody is going to find it without luck involved.


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## skitian (Apr 5, 2011)

Hey Dunbar, there was a Facebook link earlier in the thread to the full episode. The whole episode is half good, half bad. For the other trades you got to see plenty of good honest examples then the few bad ones. For the plumbing though you saw the exact same thing as the short version and the preview, which was annoying.


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