# Thermostatic Mixing Valves



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Hey everybody I wonder what your opinion is.

Who is responsible to install the Thermostatic Mixing Valve on the hot water tank.

Is it 

a)the plumber doing the new house
b) or the hot water tank installer.

and

In a hot water tank replacement or change out

A) is it required to install a Thermostatic Mixing Valve on the replacement tank
B) fine not to install a Thermostatic Mixing Valve because the house is exisiting


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> Hey everybody I wonder what your opinion is.
> 
> Who is responsible to install the Thermostatic Mixing Valve on the hot water tank.
> 
> ...


A
and
B


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Ron said:


> A
> and
> B


A and B from what question. 

Actually there is two question.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> A and B from what question.
> 
> Actually there is two question.


A 1st Question
B 2nd Question


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Actually we have a real problem with this up here... we have companies that rent out hot water tank to homes and they think they dont have to install mixing valves on any of their tanks..

The only time that it comes into question is on new construction when the inspector catches it.

To me I feel that want ever equipment is being installed it should be installed to meet code... but these hot water tank installers argue that it is the plumbers job...

It turns out to be quiet the pissing contest


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

All water heater installs and replacements require a permit here.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

I think even with a change out it should have to be installed to the current code.

Just like venting pipe for the hot water tank has to be changed if it doesn't meet code...so should the mixing valve also be upgraded or added on to the system.

But every time the hot water tank installer change out a tank they never install a mixing valve


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Ron said:


> All water heater installs and replacements require a permit here.


It would be nice if they made permits for that here but we only have building and plumbing permits.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

code says...... new or replacement water temp must be limited to either 120 or 130 depending on your local amendment. Watts and Sparco both recommend an ASSE 1070 compliant tempering valve with hot temp limiter. Watts further recommends that ASSE 1070 tempering valves be located at fixtures that provide hot water and that the tank tempering valve be set to 160 to kill off legionella bacteria. Though I know of no states that currently are requiring this, I suspect it will not be long before it becomes mandatory. So here's a chance to make some bucks yes :thumbsup:


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Ron said:


> All water heater installs and replacements require a permit here.


 Even Electric ???? Really ??


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Cal said:


> Even Electric ???? Really ??



Yes required. Really


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Mixing valves are not required here on residential. But all new or replacement water heaters must meet current code with a permit pulled. Why would electric heaters not require a permit? Thats absurd. Around here anytime you touch the plumbing system it is required to pull a permit. Also on new construction the plumber does the water heater, we dont contend with water heater installers except on replacements. On that note St. Louis was always a strong licensed plumber town until Home depot and Lowes came to town and now they handout water heater installer only licenses. Man did they ever sell us plumbers down the river with that one. Crock!!!!


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

What's that little sticker say on the side of every new water heater about requirement of a tempering means? :whistling2:

If you're not putting them on with every install, ya need to add that to the list of things you may someday be sued for.

Code requirement or not. Manufacturers instructions must also be taken into consideration


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Matt said:


> What's that little sticker say on the side of every new water heater about requirement of a tempering means? :whistling2:
> 
> If you're not putting them on with every install, ya need to add that to the list of things you may someday be sued for.
> 
> Code requirement or not. Manufacturers instructions must also be taken into consideration


Good point Matt, It also says to not eat the packaging materials or give the plastic bag to the kids to wear over their head. :thumbsup:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Piperat said:


> Good point Matt, It also says to not eat the packaging materials or give the plastic bag to the kids to wear over their head. :thumbsup:


 
Aww crap! I bring those "childrens play tents" home.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Homeowners installing water heaters from big box is why water heaters all have the relief valve installed now.....an akedent happened.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Homeowners installing water heaters from big box is why water heaters all have the relief valve installed now.....an akedent happened.


No Doubt........
"Where you going Dear?"
"I have to go back to the friggin hardware store to buy a plug, there's an extra hole in this damn water heater. Be right back"


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Every heater I buy they are shipped loose in the box. Not installed.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Matt said:


> Every heater I buy they are shipped loose in the box. Not installed.


yes I believe the commercial heaters do not have them installed.


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

I haven't installed any for awhile since I got into excavation but the Bradford Whites I used to install had them installed.:blink:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Matt said:


> Aww crap! I bring those "childrens play tents" home.


I use these now. Those WH bags are too dangerous.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

And waste a buttload of gas/electricity/oil



nhmaster3015 said:


> code says...... new or replacement water temp must be limited to either 120 or 130 depending on your local amendment. Watts and Sparco both recommend an ASSE 1070 compliant tempering valve with hot temp limiter. Watts further recommends that ASSE 1070 tempering valves be located at fixtures that provide hot water and that the tank tempering valve be set to 160 to kill off legionella bacteria. Though I know of no states that currently are requiring this, I suspect it will not be long before it becomes mandatory. *So here's a chance to make some bucks yes* :thumbsup:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

So if I get this right.

The hot water tank has to install a mixing valve no matter what.

We have HWT rental companies that rent out HWT and never install a mixing valve.

I see them do this everyday. I told them numerous times to put one on the tank but they just argue.

I think I will send out a letter to the provincial ministry informing them what is going on.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I have never heard of such a requirement. You almost never see mixing valves except on a few commercial applications.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Protech said:


> I have never heard of such a requirement. You almost never see mixing valves except on a few commercial applications.




I have to type this but here 424.5 bathtub and whrilpool tub valves: the hot water supplied to bathtubs shall be limited to a maximum temperature of 120 by a water temperature limiting device


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

house plumber said:


> I have to type this but here 424.5 bathtub and whrilpool tub valves: the hot water supplied to bathtubs shall be limited to a maximum temperature of 120 by a water temperature limiting device


Couldn't that requirement be met simply by the hot adjustment limit stop on say a moen positemp valve? Of course if someone cranks the water heater up this temp will rise also.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

house plumber said:


> I have to type this but here 424.5 bathtub and whrilpool tub valves: the hot water supplied to bathtubs shall be limited to a maximum temperature of 120 by a water temperature limiting device


Don't forget the bidet. FL plumbing code states at 408.3, " Bidet water temperature. The discharge water temperature from a bidet fitting shall be limited to a maximum temperature of 110 Degrees F. by a water temperature limiting device conforming to ASSE 1070."


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Piperat said:


> Couldn't that requirement be met simply by the hot adjustment limit stop on say a moen positemp valve? Of course if someone cranks the water heater up this temp will rise also.


No its talking about deck mount faucets for like drop in tubs


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Matt quick question about our code. Does the following apply to Tankless water heaters?

*Section 890.1220 Hot Water Supply and Distribution* 
8) Direct Fired Instantaneous Heaters. (Storage tank of more than 64 fluid ounces.) Direct fired instantaneous water heaters shall be equipped with a thermostatic mixing valve or valves which conform to ASSE 1017-1999. A pressure relief valve shall be installed on or adjacent to the heater. A properly sized temperature and pressure relief valve, based upon the energy input rating of the heater, shall be installed on the tempered line with the temperature sensing element immersed in the tempered water line as close as possible to the mixing valve. ​


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> Matt quick question about our code. Does the following apply to Tankless water heaters?
> 
> *Section 890.1220 Hot Water Supply and Distribution*
> 8) Direct Fired Instantaneous Heaters. (Storage tank of more than 64 fluid ounces.) Direct fired instantaneous water heaters shall be equipped with a thermostatic mixing valve or valves which conform to ASSE 1017-1999. A pressure relief valve shall be installed on or adjacent to the heater. A properly sized temperature and pressure relief valve, based upon the energy input rating of the heater, shall be installed on the tempered line with the temperature sensing element immersed in the tempered water line as close as possible to the mixing valve. ​


What is the fluid capacity of the tankless WH? You have your answer.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Matt said:


> What is the fluid capacity of the tankless WH? You have your answer.


 Beats me how much the heat exchangers hold.

I see the State cleaned up the code on Hot water supply and distribution.

I recall t a few months ago looking at the web published code it was a bit more confusing regarding tempering valves.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

The new code is ready for printing. Unfortunately the state does not have the funds to print it:furious:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Yeah, the thermostat on the water heater.



house plumber said:


> I have to type this but here 424.5 bathtub and whrilpool tub valves: the hot water supplied to bathtubs shall be limited to a maximum temperature of 120 by a water temperature limiting device


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Protech said:


> Yeah, the thermostat on the water heater.


nope. we are installing mixing valves in cabinets for all drop in tubs per that code.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

A t-stat is not an approved tempering device.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

If it doesn't have a handshower or a showerhead we do not hafta have pressure balance or temp limiting device on the faucet. So if its just a tub filler we can use anything. That does not protect a small child IMO.....if a kid closed the drain and turned on the hot water and filled the tub and fell in.....bad news.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> Don't forget the bidet. FL plumbing code states at 408.3, " Bidet water temperature. The discharge water temperature from a bidet fitting shall be limited to a maximum temperature of 110 Degrees F. by a water temperature limiting device conforming to ASSE 1070."


Yep I found that one out the hard way last year. Hafta have an ASSE 1070 for the whole house at 110 or on the bidet individually if you dont want to limit the whole house.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Well son of a gun, you're right.

*424.5 Bathtub and whirlpool bathtub valves.* The hot water supplied to bathtubs and whirlpool bathtubs shall be limited to a maximum temperature of 120°F (49°C) by a water temperature limiting device that conforms to ASSE 1070, except where such protection is otherwise provided by a combination tub/shower valve in accordance with Section 424.3. 

ASSE 1070 is a standard all about mixing valves so I guess every house has to have one now.




house plumber said:


> nope. we are installing mixing valves in cabinets for all drop in tubs per that code.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Protech said:


> Well son of a gun, you're right.
> 
> *424.5 Bathtub and whirlpool bathtub valves.* The hot water supplied to bathtubs and whirlpool bathtubs shall be limited to a maximum temperature of 120°F (49°C) by a water temperature limiting device that conforms to ASSE 1070, except where such protection is otherwise provided by a combination tub/shower valve in accordance with Section 424.3.
> 
> ASSE 1070 is a standard all about mixing valves so I guess every house has to have one now.


why did you doubt me? :jester:


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## Abdul Hakeem (Feb 16, 2010)

Both a and b, but the valve is used as a means to limit the maximum setting of the valve to 120 degrees, which should be field adjusted in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Abdul Hakeem said:


> Both a and b, but the valve is used as a means to limit the maximum setting of the valve to 120 degrees, which should be field adjusted in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.


A stop setting on a tub valve is also not an approved means of tempering. 

In my location anyways...


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

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The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession) 

Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field. 

This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is. 

We look forward to your valuable input.


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