# Trouble clearing a sewer.



## rooterboy (Jul 16, 2009)

A few days ago I got a call for a stopped up drain, the customer called me back after a few days to come and clear it, Her husband tried but could not clear it. Anyways the toilet was already pulled and I could not locate a cleanout in the front yard. I brought my Spartan 300 into the bathroom with 55 mag cable and a 2 1/2" cutter on it. I went in through the toilet flange and thought every thing was ok? Unfortunately my cable went up the vent and got caught. It took quite a while running the machine in forward and reverse to finally get my cable out. Well my cable had some insulation wrapped around it. My guess it there was an opening in the vent in the attic and my cable went out the opening into the attic and twisted up in some insulation. The small camera would have been quick to check the vent from the roof to look for a hole in the vent. I did not want to try again from the toilet flange so I went up on the roof with the K60sp and tried to clear it. I was out about 100' and was not able to clear it ran into a root stoppage that stopped the K60 and even caused it to run backwards when there was a lot of torque on the cable. I gave up after about three hours.


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## rooterboy (Jul 16, 2009)

I could have probably came back with a different machine like the K-1500 or put the Spartan 300 up on the roof. Another day of course I was beat tired. But I think they had money issues, so they could find another guy to clear the drain.


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

Sheity, this is why I don’t clear drains..

I hate clearing drains.
I Sold my K-1500 years ago, I’ll still use my K-50 on occasion, and I’ll auger a w/c-
but if the KWR or hand snake won’t clear a vanity/tub/shower drain I sub it out.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Camera and locate the pipe outside and install a clean out there. No reason for you to give work away if they don't have proper access. 

I hope you billed them for something. What about jetting?

I took the on call duties this weekend. 3 jet jobs, all from upstream/ inside. One was drained down already and my jetter is remote controlled so very little blow back. Second was similar, more backwash but we just vacuumed and kept jetting.

Third job was from the vent and I had tons of backwash but outside so no worries.


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## TerryTotoSucks (5 mo ago)

The job should’ve switched from trying to clear the sewer to finding the sewer outside so a proper cleanout can be installed or to clear it from the ground. 

I don’t use roof vents to clean roots. I use roof vents to clear soft stoppages or to locate the sewer so I can dig it up.


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## rooterboy (Jul 16, 2009)

I agree Terry, the customer waited a few days with a backed up sewer because they did not want to pay me $200 to snake the sewer. Also the customer did a lot of hardscape and tile work in the front yard and most likely covered up the sewer cleanout. It was a small house with one bathroom with a couple of families living in it. I just assumed they were the owners, but they could have been the renters? I did not think the money was there for additional work.

Dhal I did bill them, I could of offered a location with camera and an estimate for repairs. I was beat tired and it was getting dark so I called it a day.


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## TerryTotoSucks (5 mo ago)

It’s easy to think properly sitting in my chair. Things can get cloudy in the heat of battle. Time slips away. Our nature is not to give up. You look at your watch and see you’ve spent X amount of time…….too much.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Having the staff around to get right on locating and installing a cleanout would be the tough part for me. We’re still about 1-2 weeks out on scheduling those kinds of jobs and that’s not one someone is going to wait around for you on. I would have to reccomend a buddy of mine.


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## hewhodigsholes (Oct 28, 2020)

I'm getting to the point where I rarely offer to pull a toilet for drain access anymore, unless the stoppage is confined to that bathroom group. If it's a main line stoppage I'm selling a cleanout.

I'm with Terry, roof vents are for camera access and the occasional kitchen drain.


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## hewhodigsholes (Oct 28, 2020)

I had to throw in the towel on an island kitchen the other day. It was one of those older triple sinks with the disposal in the middle. Cabinet doors were half height, and each side basin was individually trapped into a sanitary cross with a loop vent. Of course, there's no cleanout, and no room to add one without gutting it. I try every trick I know off to get my cable down that cross, to no avail. I even cut the vent loop to the dismay of the customer. No dice. 

The guy was dogging me from 20 min into the call. Said the other 4 companies that had been out over the years had been in and out in 30 mins and he couldn't believe I couldn't do the most basic plumbing task. I finally told him sorry for the inconvenience and that we wouldn't charge him anything per my managers instructions. He says he's going to call a lawyer and I tell him we have nothing else to talk about. 

Fun day.


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## rooterboy (Jul 16, 2009)

Hewhodigsholes Sometimes drain jobs suck. Let it go and move on. I clear the vast majority of stoppages but once in a while I run into problems that I can't clear or customer issues. goes with the territory I guess.


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## Blue2 (12 mo ago)

hewhodigsholes said:


> I had to throw in the towel on an island kitchen the other day. It was one of those older triple sinks with the disposal in the middle. Cabinet doors were half height, and each side basin was individually trapped into a sanitary cross with a loop vent. Of course, there's no cleanout, and no room to add one without gutting it. I try every trick I know off to get my cable down that cross, to no avail. I even cut the vent loop to the dismay of the customer. No dice.
> 
> The guy was dogging me from 20 min into the call. Said the other 4 companies that had been out over the years had been in and out in 30 mins and he couldn't believe I couldn't do the most basic plumbing task. I finally told him sorry for the inconvenience and that we wouldn't charge him anything per my managers instructions. He says he's going to call a lawyer and I tell him we have nothing else to talk about.
> 
> Fun day.


You should have asked why he didn’t call them back. People always want to run their mouth


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## hewhodigsholes (Oct 28, 2020)

Blue2 said:


> You should have asked why he didn’t call them back. People always want to run their mouth


I was going to, until he mentioned the lawyer. Then he got all upset that I wouldn't talk to him anymore. I told him he'd already thrown down the gauntlet so to speak, and he could take it up with management or our legal department. 

I sure as heck wasn't giving him anything else to work with.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Blue2 said:


> You should have asked why he didn’t call them back. People always want to run their mouth


Whenever someone calls me for a drain issue that someone else has already dealt with before I press them really hard to find out why they called us instead this time. There's only a handful of reasons and most of them aren't good.

-The job sucks/will be a literal schitshow.
-The last guy did it right and the customer thinks the charge was too much, probably won't want to pay us either.
-The last guy got it clear but told them he wouldn't come again because it needs to be fixed/is too risky to snake again.
-The last guy didn't actually fix the issue which is why I am there, in which case it might need to be replaced and snaking isn't the answer.
-The last guy was an azzhat in which case I definitely want to hear the whole story!


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Rooterboy, even if you don't have a sewer camera {I don't } you can usually hear the cable spinning inside the sewer line and locate the sewer line that way. I have run my K-60 from the roof vent and asked my customer to listen along the ground for the noise of the cable spinning inside the line. Then dig it up and TELL them that they need to install a ground level outside c.o.
Don't ask them if they want a c.o. Don't give them the option to refuse.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tommy plumber said:


> Rooterboy, even if you don't have a sewer camera {I don't } you can usually hear the cable spinning inside the sewer line and locate the sewer line that way. I have run my K-60 from the roof vent and asked my customer to listen along the ground for the noise of the cable spinning inside the line. Then dig it up and TELL them that they need to install a ground level outside c.o.
> Don't ask them if they want a c.o. Don't give them the option to refuse.


That's not a good option when the line is 4-8' deep.


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## TerryTotoSucks (5 mo ago)

skoronesa said:


> That's not a good option when the line is 4-8' deep.


It’s the only option sometimes or locate with a sonde/tracker and dig it up. 

I never clean roots from inside or the roof. The cable can wrap up in roots an you can’t pull it back through the fittings, most building drains in our area is 3” and sewers are 4”. So you can’t use a proper size blade. I don’t use expanding cutter heads.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

TerryTotoSucks said:


> It’s the only option sometimes or locate with a sonde/tracker and dig it up.
> 
> I never clean roots from inside or the roof. The cable can wrap up in roots an you can’t pull it back through the fittings, most building drains in our area is 3” and sewers are 4”. So you can’t use a proper size blade. I don’t use expanding cutter heads.


I average two main lines clogs a week over a year, most of those are roots, half of those are done from a toilet flange, many done from a basement c.o., some done from a 2" hole drilled in the side of a pipe. Almost none of those clogs get snaked from an outside c.o., they just don't exist here. Sometimes I get lucky and can snake back from the septic tank.

Must be nice not having a frost line.


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## TerryTotoSucks (5 mo ago)

skoronesa said:


> I average two main lines clogs a week over a year, most of those are roots, half of those are done from a toilet flange, many done from a basement c.o., some done from a 2" hole drilled in the side of a pipe. Almost none of those clogs get snaked from an outside c.o., they just don't exist here. Sometimes I get lucky and can snake back from the septic tank.
> 
> Must be nice not having a frost line.


you cant clean roots in a 4" pipe through a 2" hole with a sewer cable

im sorry......

And if you cabled drains here, cleaning roots through a closet flange it wouldnt be long before you wrapped your cutter head and cable full of roots and got it stuck. time to dig to get your cable free.

The fact that we dont have a frostline puts most of our sewers in the root zone of a tree. Your sewers being deep wouldnt see the roots we do in the south.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

TerryTotoSucks said:


> you cant clean roots in a 4" pipe through a 2" hole with a sewer cable
> 
> im sorry......
> 
> ...


When the ground freezes conifer roots keep growing below the frost line looking for water, water seeping out of rust holes or cracks. Yes, you do get roots that deep.

And no, you can't do a thorough cleaning through a 2" hole, but you can unclog it enough to let you cut the pipe without a mess, then run water while you run a full size cutter set.


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## TerryTotoSucks (5 mo ago)

Roots grow 365 here. sub tropical with Oaks, Pines, Magnolias, etc.

We kinda know roots.

Like i said, most building drains here are 3". you clean roots through a toilet flange and you'll be wrapped up in roots and not be able to pull your wad of roots back through the 3". I think that makes sense everyone.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

What part of the South Terry?


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## TerryTotoSucks (5 mo ago)

Tommy plumber said:


> What part of the South Terry?


Orange Beach, Baldwin County and sometimes Pensacola, Fl.


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## rooterboy (Jul 16, 2009)

Wow Terry those are some serious trees! I am enjoying the posts like a tips and tricks for sewer cleaning, thanks guys for sharing your wisdom.


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> When the ground freezes conifer roots keep growing below the frost line looking for water, water seeping out of rust holes or cracks. Yes, you do get roots that deep.


I 2nd this.
in Toronto Ontario, our frost line is 4’ deep, 99.9 of our houses here have basements, which means our main drains are usually on average 8’-10’ deep from ground level.
Roots growing into clay drains here are a huge problem and big business.

What I was told back in the day, when I was an apprentice:
(This may or may not be true)
- coniferous tree roots grow about the same circumference as the tree, but don’t tend to grow very deep.
-deciduous tree roots grow the same circumference as the tree and as deep as at least 1/3 of the height of the tree.
-and some trees roots grow further and deeper then others.
-tree roots can grow up to 5 years after a tree was cut down.


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## TerryTotoSucks (5 mo ago)

Yep, you don’t have cleanouts outside but you have basements with cleanouts or at least access to o the piping . So why would anyone try to clean roots from the toilet flange ?

It’s either slab or crawl space here. Some on tall pilings on the immediate coast.


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

TerryTotoSucks said:


> Yep, you don’t have cleanouts outside but you have basements with cleanouts or at least access to o the piping . So why would anyone try to clean roots from the toilet flange ?
> 
> It’s either slab or crawl space here. Some on tall pilings on the immediate coast.


so if there was a building trap, there was a breather usually on the front lawn, or under a porch and a c/o in the basement where the main drains exits the building. Sometimes the building trap was under the slab so there was 2 c/o’s at the front wall in the basement.

So why would anyone clear roots from a toilet flange?
Answer- finished basements, basement apartments/rental units. 

-there are a ton of ignorant home owners/yahoo’s/DIYers who have covered over c/o’s, backwater valves and floor drains with ceramic tiles, concrete, carpets, wood flooring etc while finishing their basements..


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

TerryTotoSucks said:


> Yep, you don’t have cleanouts outside but you have basements with cleanouts or at least access to o the piping . So why would anyone try to clean roots from the toilet flange ?
> 
> It’s either slab or crawl space here. Some on tall pilings on the immediate coast.


Because no, not every house has a basement cleanout. Also, want to open a cleanout over someone's workbench/boxes of stuff, or even over a trash barrel when there's 80gal+ of sewage behind it? Or you'll get whole house traps buried in the crawl space between the basement and the street. Can't dig up a yard that doesn't exist.

I know I know, you'd tell them to cleanout their **** and you'll be back in the morning to snake it when there's room to work or you'll just bring an excavator......


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## TerryTotoSucks (5 mo ago)

A proper cleanout is crucial to doing a proper job. When I clean a sewer I clean the entire line all the way to the street. That’s a 6” lateral in the street. The sewer is typically 4”. House drain typically 3”. 

No way I’m running 75-150 feet from a closet flange cleaning roots. I’ll pass……

Thats what I’m saying.


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

building/main drains here are minimum 4”.

I’m not clearing that either way.. 
I didn’t get my Master Plumber so I could clear drains.


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## TerryTotoSucks (5 mo ago)

Logtec said:


> building/main drains here are minimum 4”.
> 
> I’m not clearing that either way..
> I didn’t get my Master Plumber so I could clear drains.


Commercial here is minimum 4” but residential with two toilets or less is typically 3”” around my area. 

I charge more for drain cleaning than I do plumbing and here no trade license is required to clean drains.

I make a ideal situation when I get drain calls or I don’t do the work. If they refuse the work to make it serviceable then I refuse the work. 

I’m not into poking a hole in the blockage and leaving. I like to go all the way out into the main and slowly pull my cable back while I’m running a lot of water. I don’t use auto feeds.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

hewhodigsholes said:


> I had to throw in the towel on an island kitchen the other day. It was one of those older triple sinks with the disposal in the middle. Cabinet doors were half height, and each side basin was individually trapped into a sanitary cross with a loop vent. Of course, there's no cleanout, and no room to add one without gutting it. I try every trick I know off to get my cable down that cross, to no avail. I even cut the vent loop to the dismay of the customer. No dice.
> 
> The guy was dogging me from 20 min into the call. Said the other 4 companies that had been out over the years had been in and out in 30 mins and he couldn't believe I couldn't do the most basic plumbing task. I finally told him sorry for the inconvenience and that we wouldn't charge him anything per my managers instructions. He says he's going to call a lawyer and I tell him we have nothing else to talk about.
> 
> Fun day.



Hey (not a) customer, enjoy that lawyer conversation.........


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## JimmyMac (Nov 4, 2015)

Enjoy reading how everyone has different stuff all throughout the country, pretty interesting to think that its all kind of the same but also all very different!


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## JimmyMac (Nov 4, 2015)

There's a town near us that is right on Chesapeake bay that doesn't even have a sewer system, it has a vacuum system. We had an issue at a shopping center that was stopped up at the county "manhole" got the local utility guys out and they showed us how it worked, was pretty darn cool. They have to use a vacuum system because they are so close to sea level that if you dig down too far you hit water, said that there were only a couple in use throughout the country...check it out





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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> Whenever someone calls me for a drain issue that someone else has already dealt with before I press them really hard to find out why they called us instead this time. There's only a handful of reasons and most of them aren't good.
> 
> -The job sucks/will be a literal schitshow.
> -The last guy did it right and the customer thinks the charge was too much, probably won't want to pay us either.
> ...


And probably broke a cable off in the pipe


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

TerryTotoSucks said:


> Commercial here is minimum 4” but residential with two toilets or less is typically 3”” around my area.
> 
> I charge more for drain cleaning than I do plumbing and here no trade license is required to clean drains.
> 
> ...


How do you charge for drain work Terry???


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## TerryTotoSucks (5 mo ago)

sparky said:


> How do you charge for drain work Terry???


Combination of flat rate and time.


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## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

Find the stack bathroom and install a clean out on it. Houses here majority are basements but we have slab on grade and crawl spaces. Ontario close to log tec. Here's what I would attempt to do. I would install a clean out above flood level rim of toilet and bathtub and work from that. However if they can't afford 200 dollars then they can't afford a working toilet. Sometimes when they've been plugged for a long time just a snake will not do it needs to be jetted. Trees grow all year round I've seen roots in drain from tree 4 houses down. You can tell the type of tree by the smell of roots. 

Conifers have stringy roots usual large clumps but not particularly dense

Deciduous roots are thinner but densely packed. Sometimes you'll get a tap root grow through a joint then it'll grow down the drain and grow our of that and be sprouting out off that.


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## rooterboy (Jul 16, 2009)

Venomthirst said:


> Find the stack bathroom and install a clean out on it. Houses here majority are basements but we have slab on grade and crawl spaces. Ontario close to log tec. Here's what I would attempt to do. I would install a clean out above flood level rim of toilet and bathtub and work from that. However if they can't afford 200 dollars then they can't afford a working toilet. Sometimes when they've been plugged for a long time just a snake will not do it needs to be jetted. Trees grow all year round I've seen roots in drain from tree 4 houses down. You can tell the type of tree by the smell of roots.
> 
> Conifers have stringy roots usual large clumps but not particularly dense
> 
> Deciduous roots are thinner but densely packed. Sometimes you'll get a tap root grow through a joint then it'll grow down the drain and grow our of that and be sprouting out off that.


You know I thought of that a few days after I left the job, They did have a 3" sewer vent that I could have opened the wall and installed a cleanout in and snaked the sewer with, better that a roof vent for sure. I did not know there was roots until I tried to clear it from the roof vent I was hoping for a soft blockage or minimal roots. The tree roots were from queen palms they had about 5 of them in the front yard.


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