# First insurance claim today



## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

I installed a Delta faucet in a pedestal sink about 2 weeks ago. The homeowner called and said that the house had flooded. Apparently the faucet connector had disconnected from the shutoff valve. 

It was one of the new lead free fixtures that had a poly supply line as part of the fixture. Since it was a pedestal sink I cut the supply line to get rid of the excess slack. The line did not leak at all and held for 2 weeks. 

Has anybody else had this happen, or will anybody else admit to having this happen?


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

I am sorry to hear that. I hope the damage is minimal.
Did the tube slide out of the ferrule?


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## BC73RS (Jan 25, 2014)

Poly line pushed out of a compression nut? Never seen that.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I am sorry about your insurance claim....

We have had a few bad ones in the past myself..


I have heard that you are not supposed to cut off the poly
lines on the Delta faucets ..... you are supposed to somehow
just wind them up in there....

I just installed a $350 kitchen faucet from delta with the same long poly lines on the unit and I knew better than to cut them off... I dont expect problems but you never know 
that is the one reason I dont like to install the Delta junk any longer...


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

Did you use a ferrule ?


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

Delta sends ferrules and I believe nuts in case they need to be cut.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

This is the first one that I've cut and I used the ferrule they provided. The worst part about the whole situation is I'm in Mexico right now, halfway in the middle of a vacation.


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## plumberpro (Jan 1, 2013)

I know that delta will only warrant thier supplies if they are not cut if you cut them shorter that will void the warranty


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## Ptturner91 (Oct 13, 2012)

plumberkc said:


> I installed a Delta faucet in a pedestal sink about 2 weeks ago. The homeowner called and said that the house had flooded. Apparently the faucet connector had disconnected from the shutoff valve. It was one of the new lead free fixtures that had a poly supply line as part of the fixture. Since it was a pedestal sink I cut the supply line to get rid of the excess slack. The line did not leak at all and held for 2 weeks. Has anybody else had this happen, or will anybody else admit to having this happen?


This is the kinda stuff that keeps me up at night wondering about all the work I do


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

plumberkc said:


> I installed a Delta faucet in a pedestal sink about 2 weeks ago. The homeowner called and said that the house had flooded. Apparently the faucet connector had disconnected from the shutoff valve.
> 
> It was one of the new lead free fixtures that had a poly supply line as part of the fixture. Since it was a pedestal sink I cut the supply line to get rid of the excess slack. The line did not leak at all and held for 2 weeks.
> 
> Has anybody else had this happen, or will anybody else admit to having this happen?


Who supplied the faucet ??? If not you - tell them u don t warranty the fixture. I am sure the instructions call for cutting if necessary. I always throw loops on it , zap strap the shot together , then clip to back of cabinet with short screw. I would be going after delta though. 

One thing to check is too make sure water pressure in house is not spiking over night to of cause this.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

plumberpro said:


> I know that delta will only warrant thier supplies if they are not cut if you cut them shorter that will void the warranty


This is bs, so you're supposed to just loop them, on a pedestal that looks real nice. Don't they give you ferrules with the faucet? I know I've cut a few of those supplies I can't believe it voids the warranty if a licensed plumber installs it, that's bs IMO. How can I, as a business owner stand behind a product if the manufacturer can't. They have to design crap geared toward having HO do it themselves and the pros suffer for it. Hope your insurance doesn't go up too much, that sucks man. 

Just to clarify I wasn't calling bs on what plumber pro said it just pisses me off.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

Fast fry said:


> Who supplied the faucet ??? If not you - tell them u don t warranty the fixture. I am sure the instructions call for cutting if necessary. I always throw loops on it , zap strap the shot together , then clip to back of cabinet with short screw. I would be going after delta though.
> 
> One thing to check is too make sure water pressure in house is not spiking over night to of cause this.


Tell who? The insurance company? Thats not going to work out too well in this situation. Even if you have paperwork stating this, I think you will have a fight on your hands. I believe, at least in California, that you are required to "warranty" your install for at least a year, but there is more to it than that, I'm not sure the details off hand. If the manufacturer clearly states they don't cover cutting the supplies I would say its coming back on the installer. I'm not saying I agree with this, because I believe they even supply you with ferrules in the box, if you're not supposed to cut them than wtf?


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## HP plumber (Sep 4, 2013)

Did you use brass inserts they should include those if they don't. I don't remember seeing them last time I installed one.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

I have heard of this problem several times already. That's why I have made a company policy not to buy any faucets that I can't put supply tubes on. The other thing I have started doing that I thought I would never do is stainless flex supply's. They have no slip joint they can fail but they won't slip off. If they fail the manufacture is responsible. Just remember CMA. That usually works


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

love2surf927 said:


> Tell who? The insurance company? Thats not going to work out too well in this situation. Even if you have paperwork stating this, I think you will have a fight on your hands. I believe, at least in California, that you are required to "warranty" your install for at least a year, but there is more to it than that, I'm not sure the details off hand. If the manufacturer clearly states they don't cover cutting the supplies I would say its coming back on the installer. I'm not saying I agree with this, because I believe they even supply you with ferrules in the box, if you're not supposed to cut them than wtf?


No - u tell the home owner if they supply fixture , u don t warranty that . This **** happens all the time . Cheap ass home owner buys toilet from blowes , I install . Leak . Ok change wax ring ...etc., etc, etc, fak still leaks . Go return toilet . Sure enough second one does not leak . I get this all the time . U install faucet and copper supply from faucet to inside body starts leaking and home owner supplied faucet ........ What that is my fault ....hahahah. All my shot is warranty just not the fixtures that I don't provide.
Is that any more clearer.


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

plumberkc said:


> I installed a Delta faucet in a pedestal sink about 2 weeks ago. The homeowner called and said that the house had flooded. Apparently the faucet connector had disconnected from the shutoff valve.
> 
> It was one of the new lead free fixtures that had a poly supply line as part of the fixture. Since it was a pedestal sink I cut the supply line to get rid of the excess slack. The line did not leak at all and held for 2 weeks.
> 
> Has anybody else had this happen, or will anybody else admit to having this happen?


 This is why we require ALL customers to sign a work authorization and waiver sheet. 

One of our protection clauses is:

- We are not responsible for unforeseen complications or damage resulting from customer supplied parts/materials'. 

We also inform our customers that we may not install certain customer supplied fixtures.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

Fast fry said:


> No - u tell the home owner if they supply fixture , u don t warranty that . This **** happens all the time . Cheap ass home owner buys toilet from blowes , I install . Leak . Ok change wax ring ...etc., etc, etc, fak still leaks . Go return toilet . Sure enough second one does not leak . I get this all the time . U install faucet and copper supply from faucet to inside body starts leaking and home owner supplied faucet ........ What that is my fault ....hahahah. All my shot is warranty just not the fixtures that I don't provide.
> Is that any more clearer.


All I'm saying is that you can say, write, do whatever you want but if it's not legally binding you don't have a leg to stand on. Just because you write it on an invoice and it's signed doesn't mean anything if it's not lawful. At this point, even if he did "tell the customer" as you say, that you don't warranty it doesn't mean thats going to hold up to anything. It's nice to have certain policies in place but you need them to follow the law as well, I'm not an attorney so I don't know what is legal or not and it varies depending where you are.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

plumberpro said:


> I know that delta will only warrant thier supplies if they are not cut if you cut them shorter that will void the warranty


Then why do they provide the ferrule? I normally don't cut them but with a pedestal sink you almost have to unless you want it to look like crap. The only reason this happened is because the manufacturers are trying to get around the lead free laws. In order to meet the required % of lead along the flowable surface they increased the flowable service area.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Fast fry said:


> No - u tell the home owner if they supply fixture , u don t warranty that . This **** happens all the time . Cheap ass home owner buys toilet from blowes , I install . Leak . Ok change wax ring ...etc., etc, etc, fak still leaks . Go return toilet . Sure enough second one does not leak . I get this all the time . U install faucet and copper supply from faucet to inside body starts leaking and home owner supplied faucet ........ What that is my fault ....hahahah. All my shot is warranty just not the fixtures that I don't provide.
> Is that any more clearer.


Fixtures are the one thing that I used to prefer for customers purchase from HD only because it seems easier that way. I think I would want to setup a catalog on my website that had pricing for each fixture. People are spoiled by HD, you can see all fixtures from all varieties and purchase them for less than what a plumbing supplier sells them for. Of course they are made in China and don't have the same cartridge's as the ones from the supply house. 

I did this job for a discounted price because I had done some other work after which the faucet had low pressure. 

I think it should be my insurance companies job to fight it out with Delta but they will probably just increase my rates instead.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*Dont stress over it too much*



plumberkc said:


> Fixtures are the one thing that I used to prefer for customers purchase from HD only because it seems easier that way. I think I would want to setup a catalog on my website that had pricing for each fixture. People are spoiled by HD, you can see all fixtures from all varieties and purchase them for less than what a plumbing supplier sells them for. Of course they are made in China and don't have the same cartridge's as the ones from the supply house.
> 
> I did this job for a discounted price because I had done some other work after which the faucet had low pressure.
> 
> ...


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## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

When in Rome...










I don't trust plastic compression connections. I have gone the way of the fridge manufacturers. I'll bring a chrome or copper riser up then transition.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

_Delta Faucet Company recommends you leave the existing fitting on the PEX supply tubing and not shorten the tubing. If you determine the PEX supply tubing for this faucet is too long and must be shorter to create an acceptable installation, be sure to read the instructions and plan ahead. When cutting the supply tubing the installer accepts the responsibility to do so in a way that allows a leak-free joint to be created. Delta is not responsible for tubing that is cut too short or cut in a way that will not allow for a leak-free joint. For custom fit installations, you must use RP50952 sleeves supplied with model and nuts included on supply lines. Tube cut must be straight. See plastic sleeve installation instructions found on RP50952.

NOTICE: DO NOT use a metal sleeve, RP51243 gasket (supplied with faucet) or ferrule in the place of the plastic sleeve supplied, it may not create a leak-free joint. Do not use pipe dope or other sealants on water line connections.

Instructions: Watch this how to video for information on how to cut your PEX supply lines to size.

1. Identify desired length of tube (1). Leave 1" - 2" of extra length to allow for easier installation and cut tube. Ensure cut is straight and burr free.

2. Slide nut (2) and plastic sleeve (3) onto cut tube. Ensure sleeve is oriented as shown.

3. Insert tube into outlet fitting (4). Tube should touch bottom of hole inside fitting.

4. Slide plastic sleeve down tube until it engages top of fitting. NOTICE: Failure to use plastic sleeve in the correct orientation will result in disconnection and possible water damage.

5. Slide nut over plastic sleeve. With wrench, tighten nut 2 turns past finger tight. Do not overtighten.
_


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## Krisincanada (Apr 3, 2013)

Ptturner91 said:


> This is the kinda stuff that keeps me up at night wondering about all the work I do


I'm the same way....LOL...I'm my own worst emeny...


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

wyrickmech said:


> I have heard of this problem several times already. That's why I have made a company policy not to buy any faucets that I can't put supply tubes on. The other thing I have started doing that I thought I would never do is stainless flex supply's. They have no slip joint they can fail but they won't slip off. If they fail the manufacture is responsible. Just remember CMA. That usually works


I also use only the ss supply lines,and when a customer buys the faucet for me to install and it has the plastic supply lines on it I never cut them and tell them why and I also tell them about them blowing out and if that happens that im not responsible and I write that on my invoice and have them sign it.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

woberkrom said:


> When in Rome...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hey that's a good idea,i like that,never thought of that,thanks for posting,i will do this on the next delta faucet I install with the plastic supply lines,very good idea


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## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

I had a plastic supply line blow out on me once. That was enough. With the push on fittings the installer error rate is almost zero (cut it straight and no burrs). If something fails...well, it is easier to invite more people to that conversation.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Talk about a vacation killer! Sorry man.

We flooded a huge office space once. Boss sent me out to find out what happened.

A 3/8 chrome supply slipped out of ferrule. I found Threads on nut only machined down about 3/4 of the way. My boss was gonna fight brasscraft on it but I never heard the outcome.

Hope it works out alright.


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

love2surf927 said:


> All I'm saying is that you can say, write, do whatever you want but if it's not legally binding you don't have a leg to stand on. Just because you write it on an invoice and it's signed doesn't mean anything if it's not lawful. At this point, even if he did "tell the customer" as you say, that you don't warranty it doesn't mean thats going to hold up to anything. It's nice to have certain policies in place but you need them to follow the law as well, I'm not an attorney so I don't know what is legal or not and it varies depending where you are.


I don t have anything written, pre written or anything signed . But everytime there had been something wrong I look at them and tell them sorry but I can t warranty ( which usually means this can not be fixed because it is mis manufactured) this . I have never had anyone ever say anything because it makes sense.


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

Ahhhh KC dude, that sucks. I've put in a few of those in and it BUGs me. I have cut a few as well... Hope it works out. Knock on wood I've been ok so far.


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## SSP (Dec 14, 2013)

Sorry to hear about the claim, good luck with it as those insurance crooks can be a hassle! 

Last company i worked for had a similar situation, apprentice hooked up sink upstairs and a couple weeks later just after turn over the poly supply line popped out of the R19 and caused $60000 damage .... Bad day for a first year! But luckily for them the insurance completely covered the claim

As for the Delta faucets, i almost always trim the lines down and use the provided ferrels and haven't had a leak yet with well over a few dozen installs in the last couple years, but like redwood said "knock on wood".. Anything can happen at anytime for no reason 

I DID notice though, it could just be me, that the included 3/8 comp nuts on the faucet seem slightly deeper than standard ones you would see on other comp. valves, prob due to the thick rubber washer inside, so when i do trim them i usually use more elbow grease to get them snug.

I spent long enough pipefitting/steamfitting (currently 3rd year) to learn another invaluable tip to consider when doing any bolt up or final fastening. That is no matter how tight you get something, always go back and snug it up some more after a couple hours or so, even better if possible the next day. I got in the habit of doing a final walk through and torquing everything again and have completely eliminated call-backs for minor nuisances


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## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

Triplecrown24 said:


> This is why we require ALL customers to sign a work authorization and waiver sheet.
> 
> One of our protection clauses is:
> 
> ...



Yep. No Glaicer Bay, Aqua Source, or PF!


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## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> _Delta Faucet Company recommends you leave the existing fitting on the PEX supply tubing and not shorten the tubing. If you determine the PEX supply tubing for this faucet is too long and must be shorter to create an acceptable installation, be sure to read the instructions and plan ahead. When cutting the supply tubing the installer accepts the responsibility to do so in a way that allows a leak-free joint to be created. Delta is not responsible for tubing that is cut too short or cut in a way that will not allow for a leak-free joint. For custom fit installations, you must use RP50952 sleeves supplied with model and nuts included on supply lines. Tube cut must be straight. See plastic sleeve installation instructions found on RP50952.
> 
> NOTICE: DO NOT use a metal sleeve, RP51243 gasket (supplied with faucet) or ferrule in the place of the plastic sleeve supplied, it may not create a leak-free joint. Do not use pipe dope or other sealants on water line connections.
> 
> ...


If they need to be shortened? The supplies are like 3' long. In most cases it you would want to shorten. Delta faucets added to my "No" list!


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

plumberkc said:


> ...
> I did this job for a discounted price because I had done some other work after which the faucet had low pressure.


I've had 2 claims against me in the last 10 years. The tub faucet was bought at a boutique discount DIY store (high-end close-out China crap) and the job was run by a first year GC who called on a rainy Saturday. I did it for cheap going against everything I ever learned and paid the price. It was total b.s. as the job had 3 different plumbers and they took 2 years to get to me. I refused to pay the deductible, got a new insurance company and life goes on.


plumberkc said:


> I think it should be my insurance companies job to fight it out with Delta but they will probably just increase my rates instead.


 The insurance companies have a limit to what they will fight. Lawyers are overhead, so if it's cheaper to pay out on a iffy case like yours, they will pay out and get you for the deductible.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Delta had a show /class for 50 plumbers in the area. The section on the new lead free laws explained that the way the law is written is the lead content needs to be below a certain percentage. 

The way they achieved that is by providing the pex supply lines and set at the length needed to meet the requirements for the epa. So they do not recommend cutting the supplies shorter. And they said if you do, it's at your own risk.


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## BC73RS (Jan 25, 2014)

Sounds like Delta found a cheap and easy way to achieve the new no lead rules. What a farce.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

BC73RS said:


> Sounds like Delta found a cheap and easy way to achieve the new no lead rules. What a farce.


 
Like already stated... their plastic facuets are a joke....

I dont see any difference in the quality of the moen kitchen and sink faucets..... so I wonder what moen 
did different.....


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Triplecrown24 said:


> This is why we require ALL customers to sign a work authorization and waiver sheet.
> 
> One of our protection clauses is:
> 
> ...


I'm sure that will hold up nicely in court when the installation connection you made floods a customers home...:whistling2:

Recognizing the whipping of a dead horse ours is worded that we only cover improper installation or, installation defect of customer supplied items. As we were only paid for installation.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Here is what Delta says about cutting the supply lines....


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Plumber said:


> *The tub faucet was bought at a boutique discount DIY store (high-end close-out China crap)*


I didn't realize that such a thing existed...:laughing:
I've always been of the opinion that crap was crap regardless of the wrapping placed on it or, the ability to overcharge for cheap crap...


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## panther (Oct 27, 2010)

I have also installed a few of these faucets. I've only cut the supply lines short once or twice. The plastic ferrules just looked way too cheesy to me. Whenever I install these type of supply lines, I always give them a slight tug to check how strong the connection is. After hearing this though. No more for me.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

I refuse to install anything that does not come from a supply house and is not top quality to my standards.


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## mtfallsmikey (Jan 11, 2010)

My God, this is what my beloved and chosen trade has come to...


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

Redwood said:


> I'm sure that will hold up nicely in court when the installation connection you made floods a customers home...:whistling2:
> 
> Recognizing the whipping of a dead horse ours is worded that we only cover improper installation or, installation defect of customer supplied items. As we were only paid for installation.


 I'm sure it would. My attorney, who happens to know a bit more about law and court, then you do, is the person who drafted this clause. My liability provider approves and so does the Michigan State Plumbing Division/Plumbing Board. :laughing: 

I suggest you talk only about things you actually know something about. So far, ignorance and stupidity has been pouring out of your trap.

All I know about you is you're a glorified snake boy who looks at jobs for free and speaks about topics they are clueless in.

Are you just jealous that I am better looking, have a bigger bank account, and am a better plumber than you?

Next.


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Here is what Delta says about cutting the supply lines....


 And just think.....you posted this all by yourself. **Golf Clap**


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

Triplecrown24 said:


> I'm sure it would. My attorney, who happens to know a bit more about law and court, then you do, is the person who drafted this clause. My liability provider approves and so does the Michigan State Plumbing Division/Plumbing Board. :laughing:
> 
> I suggest you talk only about things you actually know something about. So far, ignorance and stupidity has been pouring out of your trap.
> 
> ...


Wow, and you're going to call out someone for posting ignorance and stupidity. Time to find a mirror.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Triplecrown24 said:


> I'm sure it would. My attorney, who happens to know a bit more about law and court, then you do, is the person who drafted this clause. My liability provider approves and so does the Michigan State Plumbing Division/Plumbing Board. :laughing:
> 
> I suggest you talk only about things you actually know something about. So far, ignorance and stupidity has been pouring out of your trap.
> 
> ...


Good Luck with it....
Looks like you've got it all covered...:thumbup:


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## plumb_aus (Mar 20, 2014)

SSP said:


> I spent long enough pipefitting/steamfitting (currently 3rd year) to learn another invaluable tip to consider when doing any bolt up or final fastening. That is no matter how tight you get something, always go back and snug it up some more after a couple hours or so, even better if possible the next day. *I got in the habit of doing a final walk through and torquing everything again and have completely eliminated call-backs for minor nuisances*


Wise words indeed. And on bigger projects, this is the norm. Good luck with your issue.


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## Ptturner91 (Oct 13, 2012)

Triplecrown24 said:


> I'm sure it would. My attorney, who happens to know a bit more about law and court, then you do, is the person who drafted this clause. My liability provider approves and so does the Michigan State Plumbing Division/Plumbing Board. :laughing: I suggest you talk only about things you actually know something about. So far, ignorance and stupidity has been pouring out of your trap. All I know about you is you're a glorified snake boy who looks at jobs for free and speaks about topics they are clueless in. Are you just jealous that I am better looking, have a bigger bank account, and am a better plumber than you? Next.


I can not believe you called out someone like this, let alone Redwood who every post he writes has knowledge pouring out of it, 
This site is for professional plumbers talking and helping each other, something redwood is the perfect example of


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Triplecrown24 said:


> I'm sure it would. My attorney, who happens to know a bit more about law and court, then you do, is the person who drafted this clause. My liability provider approves and so does the Michigan State Plumbing Division/Plumbing Board. :laughing: I suggest you talk only about things you actually know something about. So far, ignorance and stupidity has been pouring out of your trap. All I know about you is you're a glorified snake boy who looks at jobs for free and speaks about topics they are clueless in. Are you just jealous that I am better looking, have a bigger bank account, and am a better plumber than you? Next.


Basically you are trying to put the blame back on delta. Who has deeper pockets there tough guy, you or delta? I bet I know the answer. You're going to blame delta, and they will in turn draft a memo saying its installer error. Then you will try to take them to court and they will rape you over and over until you're broke. Then, you will lose. Or you will blow your wad and win in court but it will be a Pyrrhic victory. Know what that is smart guy?


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## pipes (Jun 24, 2008)

Lmfao, sorry came in late on this one. 
My point of view for what it's worth. If a human has touched it, it will fail! 
If you try for idiot proof, a better idiot will show them self. If you make it 
bulletproof, they make a better bullet. No matter how legally binding you
make it, there are hundreds of thousands of lawyers finding a loophole
for it. 
Just do the best you can. Take pride in yourself, your trade, your life.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Triplecrown24 said:


> This is why we require ALL customers to sign a work authorization and waiver sheet.
> 
> One of our protection clauses is:
> 
> ...


As a frame of reference, I have been in the trades for 40-years. I have been a licensed contractor in multiple States for 33-years. In addition, I have been an Expert Witness for construction litigation specializing in plumbing and mechanical for 28-years.

Most of my cases start at $1,000,000 but I have had $10,000 cases and I've had a $900,000,000 case. In my opinion, your protection clause is a lousy one which even the worst of attorney could chew you up and spit you out.

_We are not responsible for unforeseen complications or damage resulting from customer supplied parts/materials'._

If I had you in deposition I would start by asking you for your experience followed asking why you don't like installing customer supplied parts and materials. I imagine you would explain you have no control over the materials the customer supplies. Then the attorney only needs to ask was the problem _unforeseen_ because you were under qualified to do the work or were you negligent in your duties. About that time the insurance company starts writing the check.

A better clause would have been:

_We are not responsible for customer supplied materials._

Even that is real weak but it might be defendable.

Mark


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

This is in the same category as the dump truck with a sign on the back of his bed. Something like, "stay back 100', not responsible for damage". It may make the driver feel better, until the judge greets him.

You can deny responsibility all you want but that does not mean you are not liable in the eyes of the court. And for right or wrong, in the end that is all that matters.


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

When it comes to court its whoever has deeper pockets for sure. Except very minor stuff like traffic court. I defend myself there. Courtrooms are nothing like the real world.


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