# Navien CH 240 ASME



## Tim`s Plumbing

Installing 2 Navien CH 240 ASME combi units I got this far today.I know their are some pipe that aren`t straight but it is not done yet I will post more pics when its done.


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## OldSchool

For a second I though I was seeing double

Nice clean work


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

Very nice!! Is it residential or commercial application?


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## ZL700

I know the Navien combi has a electronic fill valve that must be kept pressurized so if you leave valve on how's it not going to over fill at the connection above tank? Am I missing a valve in pic?


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## Tim`s Plumbing

ZL700 said:


> I know the Navien combi has a electronic fill valve that must be kept pressurized so if you leave valve on how's it not going to over fill at the connection above tank? Am I missing a valve in pic?


It is hard to see but behind the gas piping I have a valve with a Watts 9d -M3 tied into the autofill port then a tee going to the expainsion tank for fast filling. I will take the handle off the ball valve at the expainson tank after I fill the system.


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## Tim`s Plumbing

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Very nice!! Is it residential or commercial application?


 Residential 2 family.


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## ZL700

tim`s plumbing said:


> it is hard to see but behind the gas piping i have a valve with a watts 9d -m3 tied into the autofill port then a tee going to the expainsion tank for fast filling. I will take the handle off the ball valve at the expainson tank after i fill the system.


nice!


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## cbeck

Looks Great!


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## Catlin987987

Very clean. How do you like the CH240?


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## ZL700

Chiming in, I'm not sure I would put in in my house, a lot to be said about boilers and indirects with better operating efficiencies or better yet reverse indirects installation. Due to the combis operating like tankless with short domestic cycling, they don't hit that advertised efficiency that often. Also the domestic flow rates can have their quirks. 

Anyhow probably a good inexpensive option when you don't live there or pay the utilities.


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## Tim`s Plumbing

ZL700 said:


> Chiming in, I'm not sure I would put in in my house, a lot to be said about boilers and indirects with better operating efficiencies or better yet reverse indirects installation. Due to the combis operating like tankless with short domestic cycling, they don't hit that advertised efficiency that often. Also the domestic flow rates can have their quirks.
> 
> Anyhow probably a good inexpensive option when you don't live there or pay the utilities.


 That is the bigest reason why I am able to sell them is landlords love to tell there tenants they have a high efficient apartment but don`t want to spend good $$$ on a high quality unit. For a small house or apartment they work well.


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## Tim`s Plumbing

Finished product gas company finally installed the meters so I could do my tie in`s into the existing piping.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

Nice!!!!


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

Looks like you ran 2 dedicated 3/4" gas lines from the meter?


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## Tim`s Plumbing

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Looks like you ran 2 dedicated 3/4" gas lines from the meter?


 It is actually 1" from the meters.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

Sweet. Looks good man


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## bjmi007

*wow*

that is nice install, but i would like to ask how come that brand name why not noritz or rannai? I would of go with the brand name company.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB

bjmi007 said:


> that is nice install, but i would like to ask how come that brand name why not noritz or rannai?  I would of go with the brand name company.


Navien is a brand name.... It's just as good as the ones you mentioned


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## johnlewismcleod

I like Navien :yes:

Very nice looking install, Tim :thumbsup:

Are you about ready for you're new hip now?


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## ZL700

You guys seen the new Naviens yet?

www.tanklessmadesimple.com

I watched their webinar last friday

https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/rt/4109882451073178624


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## plbgbiz

We took our employees to their seminar a couple of weeks ago.

I am very unimpressed with their new version of bait and switch marketing. :no:


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## ZL700

plbgbiz said:


> We took our employees to their seminar a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> I am very unimpressed with their new version of bait and switch marketing. :no:


I dont get it Biz, they told you they had a unit at half price? 
The goal of the bait-and-switch is to persuade buyers to purchase the substitute goods as a means of avoiding disappointment over not getting the bait, or as a way to recover sunk costs expended to try to obtain the bait. It suggests that the seller will not show the original product or service advertised but instead will demonstrate a more expensive product or a similar product with a higher margin.

Looks like a new model to me.


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## plbgbiz

ZL700 said:


> I dont get it Biz, they told you they had a unit at half price?
> The goal of the bait-and-switch is to persuade buyers to purchase the substitute goods as a means of avoiding disappointment over not getting the bait, or as a way to recover sunk costs expended to try to obtain the bait. It suggests that the seller will not show the original product or service advertised but instead will demonstrate a more expensive product or a similar product with a higher margin.
> 
> Looks like a new model to me.


Maybe "misleading" would be better than calling it "bait & switch.

Their new marketing campaign advertising the unit can be installed on 1/2" gas without upsizing that was needed in the past is a joke. Their tech specs still show 3/4" input. The gas valve will work on smaller pipe because it sucks the gas out of the line.

So yeah it will work, while it sucks the gas out of your other appliances.

I am so tired of having to be the bearer of truth to consumers that buy into the tankless marketing scams.


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## OldSchool

Do they still have plastic fittings in the navien...

I had one with a pin hole in the 90... What a pain in the arse to replace... This was right from initial start up...


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## ZL700

plbgbiz said:


> Maybe "misleading" would be better than calling it "bait & switch.
> 
> Their new marketing campaign advertising the unit can be installed on 1/2" gas without upsizing that was needed in the past is a joke. Their tech specs still show 3/4" input. The gas valve will work on smaller pipe because it sucks the gas out of the line.
> 
> So yeah it will work, while it sucks the gas out of your other appliances.
> 
> I am so tired of having to be the bearer of truth to consumers that buy into the tankless marketing scams.


I saw it and thought the opposite, at least the tankless isn't blamed as being a POS when the gas line was always too small. 

What's easier to prove to homeowner, once fireplace pilot constantly is snuffed out when 2 showers are running right?


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## ZL700

OldSchool said:


> Do they still have plastic fittings in the navien...
> 
> I had one with a pin hole in the 90... What a pain in the arse to replace... This was right from initial start up...


I have news for ya, Noritz, Takagi, Rinnai and Rheem have plastic fittings too


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## plbgbiz

ZL700 said:


> I saw it and thought the opposite, at least the tankless isn't blamed as being a POS when the gas line was always too small.
> 
> What's easier to prove to homeowner, once fireplace pilot constantly is snuffed out when 2 showers are running right?


You're right, the tankless won't get blamed. The plumber will.

HVAC Tech: *"Ms. Jones, everything checks out just fine on the log lighter and furnace we put in for you three years ago. I did notice you had one of the new Navien tankless water heaters installed recently. They are actually designed to draw the gas from other fixtures to function with existing gas pipes. Didn't your plumber let you know that when he put it in?":innocent:

*Ms Jones: *"No. He said this new heater can be put in without changing the pipes."*:furious:

HVAC Tech: *"I'm not surprised. Most plumbers don't really understand the more technically advanced equipment that is available nowadays. The only options you have to make your home's gas system work properly is to properly increase the size of the gas pipes to accommodate a tankless water heater or to just get rid of it and use the tank type water heater your home was designed for. Here are the prices for the two options and we get started on this first thing in the morning. Which of the two options would you prefer?"*:brows:


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## OldSchool

ZL700 said:


> I have news for ya, Noritz, Takagi, Rinnai and Rheem have plastic fittings too


No wonder we put in Bosch


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## 504Plumber

OldSchool said:


> No wonder we put in Bosch


That was a joke, right?


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## OldSchool

504Plumber said:


> That was a joke, right?


Nope ... We install model 950 and 1050 units 

Condensing technology with 93% efficiency and EnergyStar rating
Therm C 950 ES

What you don't have any success with these units ???


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## johnlewismcleod

504Plumber said:


> That was a joke, right?


Just sat through Bosch training for the new generation of tankless...they've come a long ways since the Home Cheapo days :yes:

Looks like good stuff now and they pulled their stuff out of the box stores according to the Bosch rep.


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## OldSchool

johnlewismcleod said:


> Just sat through Bosch training for the new generation of tankless...they've come a long ways since the Home Cheapo days :yes:
> 
> Looks like good stuff now and they pulled their stuff out of the box stores according to the Bosch rep.


Yes ... I think he is getting confused with the old junk that was out there ...

Big difference now ...

These units are well built with a greater venting option


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## No-hub

ZL700 said:


> You guys seen the new Naviens yet?
> 
> www.tanklessmadesimple.com
> 
> I watched their webinar last friday
> 
> https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/rt/4109882451073178624


 Thanks for the info! One comment about navien install video.....HACK!.......Press copper on 3/4? REALLY?,teflon on black iron,use two wrenches hack!,T&P on the floor,screws and a nail on wall bracket, you would think they would post a really nice install, not a ****ty one. Atleast there was not primer running down the vent pipe. Okay that was more than one, sorry. Good info though, thanks.


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## ZL700

plbgbiz said:


> You're right, the tankless won't get blamed. The plumber will.
> 
> HVAC Tech: *"Ms. Jones, everything checks out just fine on the log lighter and furnace we put in for you three years ago. I did notice you had one of the new Navien tankless water heaters installed recently. They are actually designed to draw the gas from other fixtures to function with existing gas pipes. Didn't your plumber let you know that when he put it in?":innocent:
> 
> *Ms Jones: *"No. He said this new heater can be put in without changing the pipes."*:furious:
> 
> HVAC Tech: *"I'm not surprised. Most plumbers don't really understand the more technically advanced equipment that is available nowadays. The only options you have to make your home's gas system work properly is to properly increase the size of the gas pipes to accommodate a tankless water heater or to just get rid of it and use the tank type water heater your home was designed for. Here are the prices for the two options and we get started on this first thing in the morning. Which of the two options would you prefer?"*:brows:


God forbid you have an opportunity to make money plumbing, right? 
That same customers fuel filter is clogged on their caddy, think they have a choice after being towed to the car dealer? 

I can never understand to this day why plumbers are so worried about what it will cost a customer?


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## ZL700

OldSchool said:


> Yes ... I think he is getting confused with the old junk that was out there ...
> 
> Big difference now ...
> 
> These units are well built with a greater venting option


Yea, the buderus boiler company purchase brought some quality.
However, the CEO and a few others were recently let go so have to wonder what's next at BBT (Bosch)


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## Don The Plumber

I would say about 75% of my customers that need a new water heater ask me about on demand water heaters. Of those 75%, I would say 90% of them, call these instant water heaters, & are under the assumption that they provide instant hot water to each fixture too. They also have no idea that the cost is so much more for install.

So when the customer asks me about them, I ask them 4 questions.
1- How old is your current heater tank?
Customer; 12 yrs (average).
2- Does it provide you enough hot water?
Customer; Oh yea, no problems, always have plenty.
3- When was the last time you had any service or maint done on this tank, that has provided you hot water every day, for 12 yrs?
Customer; Hmmm..............Never.
4-So how can you expect anything better, than what you currently have?
Customer; Your right, but hearing all this hoopla about tankless, is only reason I asked. Lets go with the tank type at 1/4 the price of tankless.

Now commercial, & a very very small percentage of residential, may be wise to consider tankless, but IMO, 99.9999999% of residential applications, does not make tankless feasible, or cost effective. 1 service call, & you can throw all the savings, & then some, out the window.


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## plbgbiz

ZL700 said:


> God forbid you have an opportunity to make money plumbing, right?
> That same customers fuel filter is clogged on their caddy, think they have a choice after being towed to the car dealer?
> 
> I can never understand to this day why plumbers are so worried about what it will cost a customer?


I think you may have completely misunderstood my intent.

I am not at all opposed to upgrading systems, new technology, tankless water heaters, and especially not opposed to making money on all of the above.

My problem is being put in the position of having to constantly tell consumers that most of everything that tankless manufacturers espouse in their ads is at best twisted facts or at worst, misinformation and outright lies.

If a customer takes the Navien bait hook line and sinker regarding there being no need to increase the size of gas pipe when replacing a 36K BTU WH with a 199K BTU tankless unit, then the plumber just looks like he is trying scam the customer for more money and they send him on his way. The plumber that is willing to propagate the lie will all to often get the job.

I have a better chance getting a straight answer from a politician as I did in the Navien seminar.

I have no problem with their units. Arguing brands of tankless units to me is like a Ford/Chevy debate. 

However, I think they ALL have the same marketing plan. Advertise what people want to buy and to hell with the facts.


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## Paton plumbing

Am I wrong or does the 9d need to be installed on a horizontal pipe so the water could drain out of the port and away , this would sit pooled around the spring?


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## ZL700

According to Watts, 9d's can be mounted horizontal or vertical


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## pilot light

Paton plumbing said:


> Am I wrong or does the 9d need to be installed on a horizontal pipe so the water could drain out of the port and away , this would sit pooled around the spring?


 Who still uses 9d's well then I guess you dont need to test them annually! Sounds like a win win then!


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