# N.C. New Bern class



## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

Anyone from N.C. going to the rfsc class in New Bern Wed. and Thur.


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## bizzybeeplumbin (Jul 19, 2011)

ummmm, am I missing something important?


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

The state board is putting on or at least was taking reservations. It is a 2 day course on residential fire sprinklers. Apparently there is a test at the end of class and then u can register to sit for the residential fire sprinkler exam. It was only $25.00. I figured if the board was involved they must be expecting sprinklers in the 2015 code, and/or were trying generate some interest in the license. If and/or when residential fire suppresion becomes code I figure the course will cost much more.

They are having a few classes this year. Check the website nclicensing.org


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## bizzybeeplumbin (Jul 19, 2011)

beachplumber said:


> The state board is putting on or at least was taking reservations. It is a 2 day course on residential fire sprinklers. Apparently there is a test at the end of class and then u can register to sit for the residential fire sprinkler exam. It was only $25.00. I figured if the board was involved they must be expecting sprinklers in the 2015 code, and/or were trying generate some interest in the license. If and/or when residential fire suppresion becomes code I figure the course will cost much more.
> 
> They are having a few classes this year. Check the website nclicensing.org


Ah, ok. I know I need to eventually get into fire sprinklers if I end up doing new construction or major reno's, but at this time I know nothing about fire sprinklers. 

But, thanks for the info!


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## Paddy (Sep 2, 2011)

The fire sprinkler industry won a federal grant for training on residential fire sprinklers. The training refers to multi-purpose systems, implying that they are the best combination of residential plumbing and fire sprinklers.

They are not. Plumbing-based fire sprinkler systems combine home run plumbing with sprinklers. This combination delivers the most cost-effective and greenest plumbing system. The net result is a combined sytem that delivers better plumbing and better fire protection to boot.


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## Paddy (Sep 2, 2011)

Sounds like it is a class on the sprinkler installation standard. The standard is only 27 pages long, so two days is about right for learning the requirements.

I would urge plumbers to get the training, regardless of whether sprinklers become mandatory or not. Some home builders will want to voluntarily install them in order to get incentives from the community that reduce construction costs. If you have the training, you will be in a position to get the business. If you use PEX, there are now five manufacturers that design sprinkler systems, and they will train you on their product.


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

First day of class, It was alright. They are multi use systems. The orange cpvc seems to be pushed. 

It is very cost effective only adding one or two percent to cost of home. The design needs to be done by a egineer or a nic 3?

The for the class is the 13d

the nc building code board missed by passing it for the 2012 session by two votes. Both nay seats will be up for replacement in 2015


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## Paddy (Sep 2, 2011)

The guys who developed the class are sprinkler-industry oriented. Consequently, they have disregarded the value of starting a design with the plumbing system and then adding sprinklers to the water distribution pipe. Their CPVC "multipurpose" system is a tree sprinkler system (or trunk and branch in plumbing parlance) that feeds a single plumbing fixture - a toilet. I call it a "Tree+ toity" design.

The presenter will tell you that the IRC does not require backflow preventers on these systems. True, but the people who own the water simply will not hook up the water unless you meet their requirements. When water purveyors see that most of the water in the Tree+ Toity system is standing water, they require backflow preventers. All of the water in plumbing-based sprinkler systems is potable, which eliminates the need for backflow prevention. That is just one of the many features that make plumging-based systems a minimum of 40 percent less expensive than what the presenters are touting. See my post titled "Why the residential sprinkler initiative has stalled: The tyranny of mindsets" at www.fdexcellence.com for more information.

I recently compared a PEX plumbing-based sprinkler system with a CPVC tree sprinkler system based on the same floor plan. The results showed that the pipe on a home run plumbing system accounts for 40 percent of the pipe needed for sprinklers. When the National Institute of Standards and Testing (NIST) compared all types of residential sprinkler systems, their report showed an average cost of rigid pipe systems of $1.61 versus an average for plumbing-based systems of $1.43. However, the study failed to recognize that 40 percent of the pipe on plumbing-based systems sserved the plumbing fixtures. Using the same pipe to supply the sprinklers as well as the plumbing cuts the cost of sprinklers. Had the NIST report noted this cost reduction, they would have revised their average cost for plumbing-based sprinklers to around $0.75 cents. 

The federal research reports on home run plumbing show that it is less expensive and offers hydraulic advantages over trunk and branch plumbing systems. If you would like more information about home run plumbing, I can direct you to two federal reports on them.


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

Patty,
I beleive that we are talking of similar systems. Fixture branches are pulled off of the fire loop and at the end to provide circulation. It could be that blazegaurds representive (or there raw material supplier lumis ?) puts a rep at every class, and the pex representatives do not respond promptly. when figuring cost at .75 have u considered the gc who will up his price per percentage.

Because it is a designed base and change orders are a certainty, as well as concealed sprinklers ( as far as I am concerned) need to be installed the cost is upped. However I find it well worth the value.

P.S. I would like to see the pex manufactures make a case as I am not a fan of cpvc


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## Paddy (Sep 2, 2011)

I don't think that we are talking about the same system. Yes, you can supply plumbing fixtures or fixture groups on a looped sprinkler system. I am referring to a home run plumbing system, which supplies a minimum of 40 percent of the pipe needed for the sprinklers. 

Looped sprinkler systems with manifolds to plumbing fixtures are more cost-effective than separate plumbing and sprinkler systems, but PEX plumbing-based sprinkler systems are much more cost-effective. 

I have no ties to anyone in the plumbing or sprinkler industry. My loyalty is to public safety.

By the way, the name's Paddy.


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

sorry for the name confusion paddy.

I am interested in the pex having the cost effectiveness. From the little I have heard on it, it seems the sprinkler tees are def more expensive, and running 1" pex can get expensive. Also running !" pex seems iit would take more pipe in the larger homes.

Again I do not have a clear understanding of your "homerun system" I have seen some examples of the uponor network system, but was told it is no longer on the market. That particular system would seem to be a mess.


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## Paddy (Sep 2, 2011)

Home Run plumbing systems are also known as manifolded or manibloc systems. Instead of installing trunk and branch water distribution pipe system to the water service pipe, installers use a 1-inch manifold that has a number of 1/2-inch discharge ports. The number of ports is determined by the number of plumbing fixtures or fixture groups that can be supplied by a 1/2-inch line.

Home Run systems have several cost and hydraulic advantages. Costwise, they use smaller pipe, (1/2-inch v, 3/4-inch). PEX is flexible and eliminates all of the elbows, tees and couplings needed for CPVC pipe. PEX comes in long rolls, so installers can string out the correct lengths and cut to fit between the manifold and location of the fixture supply pipe for each plumbing fixture. Eliminating all of the joints needed for CPVC reduces labor costs, which more than makes up for the additional 1/2-inch pipe. I have a comparison of a tree sprinkler/tree plumbing system and a plumbing-based system where the water distribution pipe is 40 percent of the sprinkler pipe. That is the main reason why plumbing-based sprinklers are 40 percent less expensive.

Home Run plumbing also has hydraulic advantages over traditional trunk and branch systems. They eliminate the pressure surges and temperature fluctuations that occur at an operating fixture on trunk and branch systems when another fixture upstream or downstream is operated.

When sprinklers are added to the home run plumbing, the runs from the manifold go to the 4-port sprinkler fittings instead of the plumbing fixtures. The plumbing fixtures are then supplied by Tee's in the pipe sections between the sprinklers.

I know that this sounds complex, but it really is not. The next time that you visit a big box store like Walmart, you will see that the sprinklers are fed by a grid of pipes. Creating multiple flow paths to each sprinkler reduces velocity, thus reducing friction loss and allowing for smaller pipe. Gridded designs have been real money savers for big box stores, and plumbing-based sprinklers use the same principle (multiple paths = less friction loss and smaller pipe) to cut the cost of residential sprinklers.

Plumbing-based sprinklers also have other hydraulic advantages that improve sprinkler operation and make field changes easier. I'll be happy to expand on those if you are interested.

I have not mentioned the "Green" advantages of plumbing-based sprinklers, such as eliminating the gases released by cementing or soldering. PEX joints are mechanical.

Paddy


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

Paddy said:


> Home Run plumbing systems are also known as manifolded or manibloc systems. Instead of installing trunk and branch water distribution pipe system to the water service pipe, installers use a 1-inch manifold that has a number of 1/2-inch discharge ports. The number of ports is determined by the number of plumbing fixtures or fixture groups that can be supplied by a 1/2-inch line.
> 
> Home Run systems have several cost and hydraulic advantages. Costwise, they use smaller pipe, (1/2-inch v, 3/4-inch). PEX is flexible and eliminates all of the elbows, tees and couplings needed for CPVC pipe. PEX comes in long rolls, so installers can string out the correct lengths and cut to fit between the manifold and location of the fixture supply pipe for each plumbing fixture. Eliminating all of the joints needed for CPVC reduces labor costs, which more than makes up for the additional 1/2-inch pipe. I have a comparison of a tree sprinkler/tree plumbing system and a plumbing-based system where the water distribution pipe is 40 percent of the sprinkler pipe. That is the main reason why plumbing-based sprinklers are 40 percent less expensive.
> 
> ...


dude you copied and pasted that statement didnt you ?


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

Paddy said:


> Home Run plumbing systems are also known as manifolded or manibloc systems. Instead of installing trunk and branch water distribution pipe system to the water service pipe, installers use a 1-inch manifold that has a number of 1/2-inch discharge ports. The number of ports is determined by the number of plumbing fixtures or fixture groups that can be supplied by a 1/2-inch line.
> 
> Home Run systems have several cost and hydraulic advantages. Costwise, they use smaller pipe, (1/2-inch v, 3/4-inch). PEX is flexible and eliminates all of the elbows, tees and couplings needed for CPVC pipe. PEX comes in long rolls, so installers can string out the correct lengths and cut to fit between the manifold and location of the fixture supply pipe for each plumbing fixture. Eliminating all of the joints needed for CPVC reduces labor costs, which more than makes up for the additional 1/2-inch pipe. I have a comparison of a tree sprinkler/tree plumbing system and a plumbing-based system where the water distribution pipe is 40 percent of the sprinkler pipe. That is the main reason why plumbing-based sprinklers are 40 percent less expensive.
> 
> ...


nevermind , your a writer. i read your profile . very professional by the way !


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

AHH! I see
Home run system= network system

Personally I am not a fan of maniblock water distribution. Maybe because I rarely get TGI or open truss to work with. Or partly because I like fittings in my pex and do not use roll pex. 

I am not a huge fan of cpvc though either, however the pex pricing on the sprinkler head adapters does not yet seem to be in line.

Using a network or loop multipurose system will depend on region and plumbers preferred method of instalation. The most important miles stone to reach is that multipurpose systems need to be required in building codes.


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## Paddy (Sep 2, 2011)

Agreed on the pricing for the 4-port fitting. Uponor's predecessor (Wirsbo) tried to brand it and thus charge more. That failed because sprinkler heads are now a commodity. Uponor will have to drop prices in order to stay competitive. The 4-port sittings will be available from Heatlink at some point, and I expect prices will drop.

On thing that offsets the price of the fitting is ease of installation. The sprinkler comes pre-installed so are no drops or sprinkler adaptors to install like there are on CPVC or copper. Also, the fittings attach directly to the ceiling joists or wall studs, eliminating the bracing needed for CPVX and copper.

Yes, the future of these systems will depend upon the market. Green construction might help spur the change. Manifolded systems get tempered water to plumbing fixtures quicker and save quite a bit of water that would be wasted waiting for the water to reach the desired temperature.


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

I am not sure of the price of the 4 port heads/fittings. I was refering to the tees that uponor now offers for multi-use loop systems.

In my mind prinstalled heads is a big negative. I do not want to accept liability on a product that has had to go through electricians, hvac, drywall, and paint subs. As well as allowing for color change through construction process


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## Paddy (Sep 2, 2011)

Uponor's Tee fittings do not come with the sprinklers installed. The 4-port fitting does. The sprinkler is protected by a plastic cap that stays on until the ceiling is installed and finished.


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## maureen (Feb 29, 2012)

I'm not but if you go please let me know how it went. I want to take this class and New Bern was the closest they came to me. I just couldn't make it this time.


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## beachplumber (Feb 7, 2010)

It was good.
Very infomative, i think this fire sprinkler thing will b good


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