# variable refrigerant flow system



## iantheplumber (Sep 8, 2013)

has anyone installed any of these systems?


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

iantheplumber said:


> has anyone installed any of these systems?


explain


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## iantheplumber (Sep 8, 2013)

explain what?

what it is?


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

iantheplumber said:


> explain what? what it is?


From wiki

VRF uses refrigerant as the cooling and heating medium, and allows one outdoor condensing unit to be connected to multiple indoor fan-coil units (FCUs), each individually controllable by its user, while modulating the amount of refrigerant being sent to each evaporator. By operating at varying speeds, VRF units work only at the needed rate allowing for substantial energy savings at partial-load conditions. Heat recovery VRF technology allows individual indoor units to heat or cool as required, while the compressor load benefits from the internal heat recovery. Energy savings of up to 55% are predicted over comparable unitary equipment.[2] [1] VRF is typically implemented with the use of an Air conditioner inverter which adds an DC inverter to the compressor in order to support variable motor speed and thus variable refrigerant flow rather than on/off operation.

An engineer estimated in 2009 that a VRF system cost 20 to 40 percent more than a traditional split/heat pump HVAC system to install, but opined that operating costs are potentially at least 10 percent lower. He speculated that the cost differences might be recovered in five years.

If you want to learn more about HVAC I am sure there is a forum for it


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## iantheplumber (Sep 8, 2013)

i know what it is.. i asked if anyone has installed one... it does require piping such as copper... some of us work for companies who do more than just dwv and domestic water...


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

iantheplumber said:


> i know what it is.. i asked if anyone has installed one... it does require piping such as copper... some of us work for companies who do more than just dwv and domestic water...


Dude why are you such a smart ass?


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Yes I have installed what is your question?


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## iantheplumber (Sep 8, 2013)

Plumberman said:


> Dude why are you such a smart ass?


 i dont know, why you jumping all over me?


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## iantheplumber (Sep 8, 2013)

wyrickmech said:


> Yes I have installed what is your question?


 i didnt really have any questions.. i was just wondering if they were becoming popular is all..


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

iantheplumber said:


> i didnt really have any questions.. i was just wondering if they were becoming popular is all..


very popular around here. The theory is you can move more btu,s with a lot smaller pipe. You can heat and cool at the same time with the same compressor. Low impact and a extremely easy retro fit. Less moving parts and less maintenance. These systems are replacing water sorce heat pumps at high rate.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

iantheplumber said:


> i know what it is.. i asked if anyone has installed one... it does require piping such as copper... some of us work for companies who do more than just dwv and domestic water...


You used one little word there (just) to pretty much lose my respect.

Most of plumbing is DWV and water pipe with a little gas and well systems thrown in there. Most of us plumbers do not do HVAC work. 

This forum is called "The Plumbing Zone" not "We Do More Than Just Plumbing Zone"


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

We install a lot of Daikin units here.

Installed them in renos and new builds.

My only complaint from an installation stand point is the hose drain for the indoor unit. The small compartment at the bottom poses a little of an issue getting the condensate to gravity drain depending on how it was roughed in the wall.

We've had to pump several of them, I don't like pumping condensate.


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## iantheplumber (Sep 8, 2013)

nice..

seems to be a good fit for the project we are doing...


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## iantheplumber (Sep 8, 2013)

MTDUNN said:


> You used one little word there (just) to pretty much lose my respect.
> 
> Most of plumbing is DWV and water pipe with a little gas and well systems thrown in there. Most of us plumbers do not do HVAC work.
> 
> This forum is called "The Plumbing Zone" not "We Do More Than Just Plumbing Zone"



yeah, and i hold a plumbing contractor license...

i only said that because you are acting like im a dumb ass for posting this.. despite the fact that it requires piping for the system.. which we are doing as the plumbing contractor.. we are not doing the duct work, we are subbing that out, even though it is under our contract...

there is a place here for boilers and the such, so what exactly is the difference?

climb off your horses...


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

iantheplumber said:


> nice.. seems to be a good fit for the project we are doing...


look them up on there web sight they even have a unit that heats domestic water at the same time it heating the building and cooling it


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## iantheplumber (Sep 8, 2013)

Plumberman said:


> We install a lot of Daikin units here.
> 
> Installed them in renos and new builds.
> 
> ...



why do you say its hard to get it to gravity drain? just the small area to work?


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## iantheplumber (Sep 8, 2013)

wyrickmech said:


> look them up on there web sight they even have a unit that heats domestic water at the same time it heating the building and cooling it


i meant nice to your comment about them being popular... 

and i meant that a vrf system is a good fit for the project that we are working on...

its a 5 story building with the top 4 floors being turned into apartments... 11 per floor for 44 units..


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

iantheplumber said:


> why do you say its hard to get it to gravity drain? just the small area to work?


The Daikins flush mount to the wall..

And yes there's just enough room to tie your refrigerant lines in and keep the hose falling right where it won't trap itself. I'm not sure of the total width of the compartment but it isn't much.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Plumberman said:


> The Daikins flush mount to the wall.. And yes there's just enough room to tie your refrigerant lines in and keep the hose falling right where it won't trap itself. I'm not sure of the total width of the compartment but it isn't much.


wall mount units are tuff sucks trying to fitt everything in there. I like the ceiling units but you are forced to pump condensate. I have put in Dakin ahu units similar to a furnace they work good when you are retroing a condo.


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## alliance1 (Dec 20, 2012)

I have installed many of those units. I agree that the drain are toughest part. I hear they make the same tubing in 50' lengths to attach to the condensate drains.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

wyrickmech said:


> wall mount units are tuff sucks trying to fitt everything in there. I like the ceiling units but you are forced to pump condensate. I have put in Dakin ahu units similar to a furnace they work good when you are retroing a condo.


Ceiling units are were its at.

They look pretty slick in the acoustic drop.


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## iantheplumber (Sep 8, 2013)

the ones we are doing are more like an air handler for lack of words.. still has ductwork coming off of the unit.. will be exposed in the ceilings..


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## alliance1 (Dec 20, 2012)

I think they are the best out there. If a customer has oil .. It's a no brainier. In colder temps where this is snow they want the heat pump off the ground


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## alliance1 (Dec 20, 2012)

The boys on here will jump on me for this but I think there is no such thing as just being in the plumbing field. I've done everything in 20 years in the trades. I can't imagine that you could stay busy just roughing houses or snaking drains. Could depend on the area.


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## iantheplumber (Sep 8, 2013)

the next thing is..

who wouldnt want to advance their knowledge a little...


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

alliance1 said:


> The boys on here will jump on me for this but I think there is no such thing as just being in the plumbing field. I've done everything in 20 years in the trades. I can't imagine that you could stay busy just roughing houses or snaking drains. Could depend on the area.


Times have changed. It's hard to make money doing 300 tract home units. Most of us started out during the housing boom and that's all we did. As demand for new housing diminished we learn to diversify. At least that's what happened with me and my co workers during the early 90's So no, you won't get jumped on by me for branching out. Just don't forget your roots.


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## alliance1 (Dec 20, 2012)

Well said.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

MTDUNN said:


> Times have changed. It's hard to make money doing 300 tract home units. Most of us started out during the housing boom and that's all we did. As demand for new housing diminished we learn to diversify. At least that's what happened with me and my co workers during the early 90's So no, you won't get jumped on by me for branching out. Just don't forget your roots.


i have been in the trade for a long time I have seen boom and bust more times than I want to admit.the people that diversify in the trade survive. The ones that specialize sit on the sidelines. Learn everything you can and don't be afraid to admit it when you don't know and you will survive. And be ready for the next boom track homes are a lot of fun.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Plumberman said:


> We install a lot of Daikin units here.
> 
> Installed them in renos and new builds.
> 
> ...


Yes. I agree. This c drains are a pita


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

I haven't touched a nitros bottle a/c pipe or a chiller or a cooling tower or any part of a hydronic system since I started my new job 10 months ago. The plumbers I work with now don't even know what a cooling tower is


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## Gene S. (Sep 24, 2013)

In my neck of the woods if all one does is plumbing he will have a very tough time 3 months of the year at least.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Yes. I agree. This c drains are a pita


yes it is a pain but the condensate pumps they have now makes it better than it was a few years back.


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## iantheplumber (Sep 8, 2013)

the opposite for me..

ive been in small shops forever the largest having maybe 30 guys...

now im at the largest MEP contractor in the state..

so despite what others may think, i havent lost touch of my plumbing roots..

even though the crew im with works for one of the largest specialty contractors in the united states, we are still just plumbers.. we dont associate ourselves as anything other than plumbers..

we just happen to be plumbers who are capable of other things...


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Here we go again. The birth of another Missis dippi


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## iantheplumber (Sep 8, 2013)

:-D


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

MTDUNN said:


> Here we go again. The birth of another Missis dippi


yep


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## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

We're big on the Mitsubishi's here. My company sent us to the Mitsubishi school in Chicago a couple years ago. I'm doing a five story office building right now, we have about 20 units on each floor. They are running off a branch controller piped to condensing units fed by boilers or chilled depending on load. 
About a year ago I did a 10 story apartment building running nothing but the Mitsu's. They had a roof top unit for each BC there was 6 per floor. That was a lot of freakin brazing. 
The nice thing about the Mitsu's is they have a built in condensate pump.


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