# Solar Thermal



## Jplmrshark

Just curious if any of you have installed a solar thermal system or had succes selling pre tapped water heaters.


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## Protech

Nope. Don't know anything about it 




































J/k . What are you asking? I do quite a bit of solar thermal.


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## Jplmrshark

Just wondering if its catching on. There is no access to the training where i live.


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## Master Mark

*solar systems....*

their is nothing harder than installing solar 
panels on a hot roof.. that is not plumbing......
that is roofing and carpentry work...


and that is a hard damn day of work,,,
running copper lines in the hot attic,
 putting backing under the roof to hold the panels,

dragging the panels up onto the roof...

mounting them in place and soldering them
insulateing them , ect ect... 

and tar pitch everywhere
.

I hope it never catches on again


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## Protech

I would generally agree with what mark said except for the part about it not being plumbing. The FSEC does training. Kinda far for you though. I'd say it's catching on in Florida and cali.

Read the "solar water heating handbook" and you'll be well on your way. There is allot of free documentation and video over at the FSEC website.


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## trick1

I've had experience with servicing existing solar thermal systems. Mostly closed systems and a few drainback systems.

When energy prices dipped a little bit earlier, almost all interest died. They can be fairly expensive to install and most people can't grasp that you need somewhere to store all of those Btu's.

One 120 gallon storage tank can only store so much and without a dump zone of some kind, the system is destined to stall for the better part of the day


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## gusty60

We have installed a few here in AZ but not as many as you might think with all the sunshine we have here. We only do closed systems. I love mine. With the rebate from the power co. and the tax break , I couldn't afford not to install one!


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## Protech

They are all over the freaking place in central FL. Hundreds if not thousands.


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## nhmaster3015

We have been installing the Buderus packaged system. Very easy install, genius roof brackets that are easy to install and easy to mount the panels on. good system. Pricey, but good.


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## Protech

I'm going to do one today.


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## Regulator

*Protection from Backflow?*

Currently, federal government incentives are causing a huge increase in solar thermal installations in Canada. 

I have a question for all you solar installers. 


For those solar systems that have a direct connection to the potable water system, what is the acceptable backflow preventer?
Are you required to utilize a double wall with leak path heat exchanger?
What code does this apply to?


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## Protech

Backflow prevention against what? What is it that you are trying to prevent from flowing? It's water.

Oh wait, you are talking about closed loop systems. In the case of drain down systems you can use a single wall heat exchanger because it's just water in the solar loop. In the case of a glycol system you can use food grade propylene glycol with a single wall heat exchanger, or ethylene glycol with a double walled heat exchanger.

Did I answer your question?



Regulator said:


> Currently, federal government incentives are causing a huge increase in solar thermal installations in Canada.
> 
> I have a question for all you solar installers.
> 
> 
> For those solar systems that have a direct connection to the potable water system, what is the acceptable backflow preventer?
> Are you required to utilize a double wall with leak path heat exchanger?
> What code does this apply to?


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## Protech

Here is how we are looking so far.

Here is the tank that I prefabbed today.












Here is me cleaning the header stubs on the unmounted collector.










The collector outlet and valves before paint.












The collector 100% done.


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## stillaround

If an average solar install is $4800 and after 13 years its still $1000 more expense than a standard e.w.h. why are they so hot..


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## Protech

Uhhh, what? you care to show how you came up with that payback period?!?!?



stillaround said:


> If an average solar install is $4800 and after 13 years its still $1000 more expense than a standard e.w.h. why are they so hot..


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## stillaround

It depends on which goofy chart online you read..but I havent been able to justify as a savings incentive the up front on solar..even in the sunshine state. I just read 2 links and they were vastly different..I have to find the one I was reading before that got me on the vigil. $400 a year cost and a $700 install over 13 years is $5900.
heres one that says only $300 difference http://www.aceee.org/Consumerguide/waterheating.htm BUT IM NOT SAYING THIS IS ACCURATE ..just causes me to hesitate. Theres a bunch of these charts ...one as different as the other.


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## Protech

A couple of 2 will use about $45 of hot water per month with an electric 40 gallon. If we assume an install price of $4800 then the actual price will be $3010 after incentives (in Florida). Even without figuring in the rising cost of electricity in that's only 5 and 1/2 years pay back time.

It would be even sooner for a family of 4. $75 per month usage for 4 people would be just a few days over 3 and 1/3 years pay back. Again, that's not including energy inflation. If you do include that it will be just a bit shorter.

Would I recommend a solar water heater to an old lady who lives by herself? NO. It's not a good choice for her. 2 or more people, then yes, solar for sure.


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## SlickRick

Would they be able to be installed in NE texas (weather wise)?

I could be the first in my area.


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## Protech

Yes but it would cost a little more than here because you would have to run an indirect system.



slickrick said:


> Would they be able to be installed in NE texas (weather wise)?


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## SlickRick

Protech said:


> Yes but it would cost a little more than here because you would have to run an indirect system.


when you get a minute would you tell me about it?


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## Protech

Bump this thread in the AM and I give you the scoop. I'm on the way out to a Halloween party.


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## Regulator

Protech said:


> Backflow prevention against what? What is it that you are trying to prevent from flowing? It's water.
> 
> Oh wait, you are talking about closed loop systems. In the case of drain down systems you can use a single wall heat exchanger because it's just water in the solar loop. In the case of a glycol system you can use food grade propylene glycol with a single wall heat exchanger, or ethylene glycol with a double walled heat exchanger.
> 
> Did I answer your question?


Thanks, Protech, you did answer my question for the type of heat exchanger. You're in Florida, right? So this is mandated under the UPC?

For the backflow preventer type, key word here would be directly connected to the potable water system. I assume that most if not all single family residential solar systems are the drain-back type that are filled via an indirect method (hose, air gap). But for those systems that do have a direct connection, a backflow preventer is required on the make-up water supply here where I am. I was hoping to hear from across the continent as to what backflow preventer is required in each area.

As for water, here (BC) at least, once the water has been discharged from the potable water distribution system and if this water is not maintained in a potable condition, it is no longer acceptable to be returned to the distribution system. Therefore a backflow preventer is required on any such direct connection. This backflow preventer could be anything from a non-testable dual check to a RP depending on the hazard type (fixture/equipment), possibility of backpressure and the hazard level assigned (according to the Authority Having Jursidiction).


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## Protech

Why would you need a backflow preventer on an open loop system? When did the water become contaminated? When it entered the tank? The collector loop pipe? The collector it self? I'm lost here. If it is in fact contaminated then why are we letting it come in contact with the cold water supply at the faucets where it could be consumed by people?


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## Regulator

Protech said:


> Why would you need a backflow preventer on an open loop system? When did the water become contaminated? When it entered the tank? The collector loop pipe? The collector it self? I'm lost here. If it is in fact contaminated then why are we letting it come in contact with the cold water supply at the faucets where it could be consumed by people?


Open loop... if this is a system where the water entering the loop is the water being consumed at the faucet, then this is still part of the potable water distribution system and a backflow preventer is not required (all potable materials, etc.)

I mean to ask about backflow preventers for those systems that use water dedicated as a heating medium only and utilize a heat exchanger (whether it is a drain-back or closed loop pressurized).


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## Protech

All right here's the deal. because your area gets colder you will need to run some kind of indirect system to prevent freezing. You can go drainback, ethylene glycol or propylene glycol. All ad cost over an open loop system because when you ad a heat exchanger you get less btus out of the same size collector and you have more equipment to purchase.

In the case of drainback systems water is the heat transfer fluid and you run a single walled heat exchanger. In these systems you need a bigger pump because you are actually lifting the water into the collector vs circulating it with no lift head. This means a more expensive pump, more pumping energy used (which adds operating cost/lowers solar fraction) and a separate drain back tank as well as a main tank that has a heat transfer coil. You will also need a little more collector surface area due to the fact that you will get less btus per sqft due to heat exchanger losses.

That is why I said that it will cost a little more for you than central or south Florida.

Now, being that you are a plumber you could cheat and install a "drain down" system. Not to be confused with a "drain back" system. They are different. A drain down system is like an open loop system that has motorized 3-way valves that automatically drain the collector on cold nights. They can be unreliable/service intensive though. Not a good choice for most people but maybe for a plumber that's willing to keep an eye on things.



slickrick said:


> when you get a minute would you tell me about it?


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## SlickRick

Do you see this as a growing demand even in climates such as ours?


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## Protech

I don't know. I work in Fl.

As a general rule, if your state and/or power companies offer incentives and your power is expensive then solar is a great replacement for electric heaters. The pay off is a little further back for gas replacements. The same thing applies if you don't have any in state incentives to work with.

If power is cheap there and there are no incentives then it's a tough sell. Only your hard core tree huggers will be interested if that's the case (which is a very small percentage of the market).

I know this, it’s taking off like crazy here in FL. Solar panels are going up everywhere. Every Tom, Dick and Harry is starting to sell solar here. I just drove by member “solarman.net” and her shop has a huge box truck parked out front acting as a solar billboard.

As far as Texas? I have no idea.



slickrick said:


> Do you see this as a growing demand even in climates such as ours?


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## Camilo

I'm currently doing Solar installs in Hawaii... we also do PV. How's PV down in Florida? What licenses do you need to do this type of work in Florida? Thanks in advance


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## Ron

Camilo said:


> I'm currently doing Solar installs in Hawaii... we also do PV. How's PV down in Florida? What licenses do you need to do this type of work in Florida? Thanks in advance


Are you a licensed plumber?


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## Protech

No answers without an intro. Post an intro like everyone else and I'll give you the goods.


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## Protech

BTW, I'm doing 5 systems this week :thumbup:. Got a crew started on 2 of them today :thumbup:


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## JoeWright213

We only install solar hot water. It's great technology. Very efficient and reliable - the good manufacturers have really worked out all the product kinks from the 80's. A good crew of 3 can have a typical system installed in 6 hours. Good margins too. Things are really picking up out here in California and elsewhere. I recommend adding it to the service lines, but then again if you don't, there's just more work for me...


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## Protech

I agree.........and who are you?

Intro?


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## JoeWright213

My name is Joe Wright - my company is Polar Solar, we are based in the San Francisco Bay Area and are also starting up in southern California next month. Is that what you meant by an intro or is there more formal protocol?


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## Protech

Well, you are usually supposed to put one in the intro ductions section


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## Camilo

Right on Joe, good to hear that. We do some Solar Thermal as well here in Hawaii, a lot of people use it, though we're concentrating more on PV now a days.


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## Protech

Well, I'm off to get a crew started on another solar water heater today in lakeland Florida. I'll post some pics.


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## Protech

Here comes the photo stream:

The original system was installed in the late 70s. The tank was replaced in the mid 90s when it went out. I confirmed that an the serial # on the heater checks out. We were going to just replace the frozen panel but the home owner just opted to replace the entire solar DHW system.


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## Protech

more pics. The house next door has an old system that is still working. see the 5th pic.


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## Protech

more pics. in the 1st 2 you can see that a house 1 street over has a solar heater too.

pics 3-5: the new system going in.


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## Protech

more pics


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## Protech

finished.


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## Nevada Plumber

I never see a house with a tile roof in your pictures. Do you have any of those in your area, or is it all shingles because of hurricanes?


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## Protech

Mostly shingle but there are tiles here and there. I hate working with barrel tile.


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## Camilo

nice pics ProTech... glad to hear that you can keep busy down in Florida. :thumbup:


i'm surprised to see that so many people have Solar Hot Water Systems down there... here in Hawaii, they are EVERYWHERE.


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## Camilo

Here's a teaser. One of the many systems we have installed. This house got a hot water system as well as PV.


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## Camilo

More PV... and 2 4x8 hot water panels in the middle.










One of the more recent systems we installed, PV in Lani kai.










PV system in Hawaii Kai










Same as above, different angle










PV


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## Protech

*Need an installer and an extra office person? Good by Florida, hello Hawaii*

:laughing:


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## Protech

I know this is a plumbing forum and not electrical but would you care to go over the details of a one of your PV systems with me?

How is the system setup? Is it a integral inverter-module system with all of the inverters hooked into bus bars? I don't see a disconnect for the array up there so I'm assuming it's next to or part of the main grid-tie inverter? 

Details man, details!



Camilo said:


> PV system in Hawaii Kai
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> PV


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## Camilo

Protech,
The disconnect is next to the inverter downstairs, we use SunnyBoy Inverters and MOST of our systems are grid-tied with the exception of a few. 

So can you tell me what licenses are needed to perform the type of work that you are doing down in Florida? I would appreciate it.:thumbup:


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## Camilo

Protech said:


> *Need an installer and an extra office person? Good by Florida, hello Hawaii*
> 
> :laughing:


:laughing::laughing::laughing:

No office people at all here... :thumbsup:


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## Protech

A solar contractors license covers it all. Need a qualifier? I know a guy :whistling2:



Camilo said:


> Protech,
> The disconnect is next to the inverter downstairs, we use SunnyBoy Inverters and MOST of our systems are grid-tied with the exception of a few.
> 
> So can you tell me what *licenses are needed to perform the type of work that you are doing down in Florida*? I would appreciate it.:thumbup:


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## Protech

So those modules are daisy chained or hooked into bus bars?


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## Camilo

Protech said:


> So those modules are daisy chained or hooked into bus bars?


yes. each panel has neg and pos and each array is daisy chained together then to a box (where there's a bus bar) on the roof which from there runs down to the inverter.... fairly simple.


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## Protech

Wouldn't that put you over the 600v NEC classification since each module is 50v or more?

Edit: nevermind, I'm having a brain fart. Those probably aren't over 50Voc so with # your not over 600V. My bad.


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## Protech

Let's see some pics bud. :thumbsup:



gusty60 said:


> We have installed a few here in AZ but not as many as you might think with all the sunshine we have here. We only do closed systems. I love mine. With the rebate from the power co. and the tax break , I couldn't afford not to install one!


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## Protech

Saw this one the other day.


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## Protech

This one was good too. Original installer f'ed it all up. Then Mr. roofer comes along and removes it and then reinstalls it 2" over so that none of the mounts are even lagged to the top cords of the trusses now.

Home owner thinks it should be a cheap fix:laughing:.


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## Protech

*30 year old panel finally died.*

The panel just went out and the home owner is having me put a new one in. The new one will be a flush mount install and will be mounted diagonal since there is not enough space for a horizontal or verticle orientation.
This baby put out free for 30 years before it died.

I'm still waiting for you tankless guys to bust out some photos of a tankless heater that lasted 30 years with zero maintenance and reduced fuel consumption by 90%. Let me know when one shows up and I'll be a tankless man.............


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## JoeWright213

*TOTALLY AGREE with Protech!*

Tankless has it's place - but overall, it is so over-applied.

Of course the reason why is that we all like getting in and out of a project as quickly as possible with the coin in pocket, but the overwhelming value for the end user is in solar water. 30 years!!! drawing 10% of the fuel - You simply can't beat that.

Out here in the bay area of northern california, 90% fuel offset is pretty tough to achieve with the cloud cover, but we're about to mount collectors on this 3 story roof with perfect exposure - 75% offset being the reasonable expectation (see pic). 

Protech's pics makes me want to start a "FAIL" blog for plumbers... :thumbup:


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## Protech

Here is the new panel going in from post #59


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## Protech

Today's solar pool heater
www.protechplumbing.biz


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## Protech

Saw this one the other day.......Somehow survived the hurricanes.


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## Camilo

Protech said:


> Today's solar pool heater
> www.protechplumbing.biz


nice


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## Pipe Rat

Nice job on the pool heater install ProTech but I don't think I could stand looking at that contraption on my house. Solar panels I could, but that thing is ugly and than those large pipes laying on and over the edge of the roof. No way. Don't take this wrong as you did a good looking job on the install I just wouldn't put that on my house.


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## Miguel

Piperat said:


> Nice job on the pool heater install ProTech but I don't think I could stand looking at that contraption on my house. Solar panels I could, but that thing is ugly and than those large pipes laying on and over the edge of the roof. No way. Don't take this wrong as you did a good looking job on the install I just wouldn't put that on my house.


I wouldn't have a problem with that on my roof. But how do you keep the snow off of it? I might hafta move! :laughing:

Nice work, ProTech


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## smellslike$tome

Just curious, I'm the first to admit I know nothing about solar, but why do I see copper on some installs and what looks like ABS on others. Why not pex on everything? Yes I am aware of the UV issues with pex but isn't it all going to be insulated anyway? Is it a temp issue with pex? What sort of temps will you generate? Just curious because I know you love solar and I know you also love pex, just wondering why I don't see the two together, or did I miss something?

Oh yeah, I do know nothing about solar but it actually could be a good option for me since I do not have access to natural gas and do not want propane. Do I understand correctly that I can heat my house with it as well or at least have some type of supplemental heat?


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## OldSchool

smellslike$tome said:


> Just curious, I'm the first to admit I know nothing about solar, but why do I see copper on some installs and what looks like ABS on others. Why not pex on everything? Yes I am aware of the UV issues with pex but isn't it all going to be insulated anyway? Is it a temp issue with pex? What sort of temps will you generate? Just curious because I know you love solar and I know you also love pex, just wondering why I don't see the two together, or did I miss something?
> 
> Oh yeah, I do know nothing about solar but it actually could be a good option for me since I do not have access to natural gas and do not want propane. Do I understand correctly that I can heat my house with it as well or at least have some type of supplemental heat?


I was wondering the same thing.


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## Camilo

Pex is limited to 170 degrees...solar water you can expect temps to be up in the 200-220. if you're running it inside your attic the last thing you want is steam in your attic. if you're doing a solar hot water install it should be in copper, or stainless piping.
as far as pool systems you use PVC and the reason is because the bromine or chlorine will eat away at the copper, thats why you have plastic panels for pool systems, those generators dont get that hot, you can go to pex but then its usually small, 3/4 so it'd be a very small pool system, you wanna run inch/inch and a half for pools.

Yes, you can heat your home with it. it's called solar heat space, there's a lot of ways to heat up a house, as well as numerous things you can do to make your home more efficient......


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## Camilo

For you PV Lovers..... 



















The two tilted Solar Panels are two 4x10's that we installed 2 weeks ago









here they are













































Finished


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## Camilo

some hot water pics for you guys


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## Camilo

more pics for you guys


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## Camilo

MMMOOOAAAAARRRR!!!!!


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## Protech

Ummm, not trying to bust your balls here but, what's the wind rating on the solar thermal collectors when installed like that? The systems I use are only rated for 130mph winds when tilted up along the long axis. If you tilt them up on the short access (like you did in these photos) they are no longer hurricane rated. I don't work in Hawaii but I assume that you must get tropical storms/hurricanes like we do in Florida. 

What's the deal?




Camilo said:


> For you PV Lovers..... The two tilted Solar Panels are two 4x10's that we installed 2 weeks ago
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> Finished


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## Protech

The black stuff that looks like ABS is actually PVC with a black dye in it and is only used in unglazed "direct" pool systems. You usually don't insulate unglazed-direct pool systems because the black pipe has more or less the same thermal absorptivity as the collectors. Seeing as how you have to run pipe anyway, you might as well pick up a few extra BTUs on the way to and from the collectors. In glazed systems (domestic hot water and northern pool systems), you do insulate the loop pipes because the delta T is much higher and will lose more heat to the lower ambient air temperature than you will gain. In northern pool systems you usually run an indirect glazed system in copper due to the more frequent freezing and the higher delta T needed. You use a SS or titanium heat exchanger so that the corrosive pool water does not damage the expensive solar loop components.
 
As camilo said, pex is not rated for the high temperatures and pressures seen in solar domestic hot water loops. Due to the high chlorine levels in pools systems and the added cost of UV insulation and the pex it self, pex is never used on pool systems. CPVC sprayed with a UV barrier paint is a good upgrade for pool systems though. As far as domestic hot water goes, it's all copper. Some SS in corrosive environments, but usually copper. The only time you can use plastic on DHW systems is on fafco brand unglazed drainback DHW systems and ICS systems. Both are complete bullsh!t in my opinion and present a poor solar fraction and payback date to the end user. 

As much as I love to sling pex, solar DHW is and always will be owned by copper not pex. Copper is the right material for the job.

As far as space heating goes, I can only tell you what I've read in books as there is no market for heating systems in FL. You usually run an indirect solar loop to a huge hydronic thermocline storage tank(s) with an upper coil tied to a boiler for backup heat. You have a zone that heats a DHW tank. The idea is that the solar does most of the work during the heating season and when you have long periods of cold gloomy weather the boiler picks up the slack. That's about all I know as I've never actually put one in.



smellslike$tome said:


> Just curious, I'm the first to admit I know nothing about solar, but why do I see copper on some installs and what looks like ABS on others. Why not pex on everything? Yes I am aware of the UV issues with pex but isn't it all going to be insulated anyway? Is it a temp issue with pex? What sort of temps will you generate? Just curious because I know you love solar and I know you also love pex, just wondering why I don't see the two together, or did I miss something?
> 
> Oh yeah, I do know nothing about solar but it actually could be a good option for me since I do not have access to natural gas and do not want propane. Do I understand correctly that I can heat my house with it as well or at least have some type of supplemental heat?


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## Protech

I really dig that rack style strapping system you are using. Seems like most of the repairs I come across on polymer unglazed pool systems are from cracks caused by thermal expansion. Usually due to fastening methods that don't allow the system to "breathe" during thermal cycling.

Some questions: 

I notice that you don't have any freeze protection built in (no vacuum relief, pitched pipe runs to allow for drain down) but I assume that it does not freeze in Hawaii so it's not needed?

I didn't see any skid plates on the pool system. What is keeping the roof tiles from rubbing thru the panels, piping, connectors during thermal cycling?

I notice the same thing on your DHW systems. They appear to be direct systems (no expansion tank or drain back tank). If they are direct systems, where is the pressure relief valve and the air vent valve located at? I don't see any on the roof.......:whistling2: 

Also, in another set of pics I don't see any check valve for the solar loop. Is it that you use a small valve and it's under the insulation? I normally use a motorized check valve as it is more reliable than spring/swing checks. If there is no check valve, what is stopping massive heat losses at night due to thermo-siphoning?


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## smellslike$tome

Alright now your just being a big shot :yes:, but I must confess that this tankless guy is becoming more and more intrigued. Oh yeah, and no sweat about being a "big shot". If you are it's because you've earned it, assuming of course that you know what the hell you are talking about. I wouldn't have the first idea whether you're dead on or slinging total bs. I'm inclined to think you are dead on. In any event, this like a lot of other things in life is not mastered over night. I'm still working on mastering the tankless world (still a ways to go yet) but I may begin to investigate, somewhat more earnestly, solar technology, maybe my own home will be my first, especially since ng is not available to me and because I'd rather serve as the guinea pig for my learning curve rather than some poor customer.

It's becoming more interesting to me.

Where is a good place to start my education from the ground up (yes I know who Google is). It would be nice if you would spare me the hours of rabbit trails and ADD excursions by offering a good set of starting resources. PM me if you prefer. 

Thanks.


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## Protech

I would start by reading Solar Water and Pool Heating: Design and Installation Manual by FSEC(Florida Solar Energy Center)

FSEC also has lots of great free information on their website.

If you have any specific questions or need help designing a system you can always PM or call me. That goes for any other vetted PZ members as well:thumbsup:.


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## Protech

Here is some great *FREE *education material:

Solar Water and Pool Heating: Design ,Installation ,Repair and Maintenance

Section 1: Solar Concepts

Section 2: Solar Water Heating Systems

Section 3: System Installation

Section 4: Troubleshooting

Section 5: Solar Swimming Pool Heating Systems

The Appendix


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## Camilo

Protech,

as far as the freeze protection, yes the reason is because this is Hawaii.

the panels are strapped in tight so they dont move... no need for skid plates

as far as the pressure relief it's on the roof, and there's one on the tank as well, the air vent is an optional device... fails more than it doesn't. our feed is above our return line, erasing the need for a check valve...

the rating is 170mph winds... stated by the manufacturer (msc), the pictures were taken before we installed the cross brace.

so Protech how come you install your pumps above the tank line? dont they burn out when they run dry?... also, isn't galvanized a problem in Florida? why dont you change those nipples on top of the tank??? 

thanks for your responses:thumbup:


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## smellslike$tome

Who will emerge victorious and claim the prize of solar dominance? Stay tuned sun loving folk for the next episode of *SOLAR WARS!*


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## Protech

see responses in red



Camilo said:


> Protech,
> 
> as far as the freeze protection, yes the reason is because this is Hawaii. I figured as much.
> 
> the panels are strapped in tight so they don't move... no need for skid plates I hate to be the guy who breaks it to you, but they darn sure DO move and quite frequently. PVC and polypropylene(the panels) expand and contract quite a bit during the temperature swings that the panels see. It might be 60 degrees F at night and they might see 160 degrees F during the day during stagnation. If you have 30-40' of panel headers you will have a few inches of expansion. If the panels are bolted down so that they can't slide back and forth, they will just start buckling at the high end of temps or cracking at the low end.
> 
> as far as the pressure relief it's on the roof, and there's one on the tank as well, the air vent is an optional device... fails more than it doesn't. our feed is above our return line, erasing the need for a check valve... I don't see what that has to do with the need for a check valve. If there is no check valve, what is keeping the heat from convecting out of the tank at night? I understand that it probably never gets down to 45 degrees in Hawaii so a freeze valve is not needed. Since freeze protection is not needed there is no need to keep the purge flow going the right direction(as there will never be any purge flow). Even so, your solar fraction is going to go down due to the heat losses every time the pump shuts down. To be fair though, you live in an area with better Insolation quantities than Florida and you seem to over size your systems so it's probably a mute point.
> 
> I have a huge beef with a lack of the pressure relief valve though. The T/P valve on the tank is not a going to protect the collectors if someone closes both isolation valve when the sun is out. If that happens, you will basically have a steam bomb go off on the roof and the HO will be replacing there collector and possibly a section of there roof from the explosion. I do service calls ALL THE TIME were the homeowner was fiddling with the heater and just closed both valves before they called me out there. If any of those service calls had been on one of your systems without a relief valve installed on the solar roof I would be selling them a new collector to replace the pile a scrap metal on the roof. Don't believe me? Go solder some caps on a new collector and then some boiler drains on the other ports. Fill the thing up completely and close the valves and then lay it out in the sun. Withing 15 minutes it will blow up (don't stand anywhere near it!).
> 
> 
> the rating is 170mph winds... stated by the manufacturer (msc), the pictures were taken before we installed the cross brace. Cool, I didn't see the brace so I jumped to conclusions.
> 
> so Protech how come you install your pumps above the tank line? dont they burn out when they run dry? No. The only way the pump isn't going to have water in it is if someone shuts the water off and drains the tank. In that case if they are too dumb to shut the power off they are going to blow the backup heating element before the pump even gets warm to the touch. I have only had to replace 2-3 pumps out of the few hundred systems I service and guess what they were all installed below the top of the tank with bottom tank connections. Said pumps were also on 20+ year old systems. I have yet to have a pump go bad on one of the newer top connection systems. That goes for decade old systems to. I you are going to try and sell me on this bottom mount pump configurations your going to have to give me some logical reasons why I should do such a thing..... also, isn't galvanized a problem in Florida? why dont you change those nipples on top of the tank??? Because they are di-electric nipples that have a plastic liner that keeps them from rusting shut. The dip tubes also are installed on top of the nipples and the tube flange seals the top of the nipple of when the FIP adapter is tightened down on top of it. I also use brass FIP adapters to soften the galvanic differential so that galvanic cell corrosion is minimal. The tank wall will fail long before the nipples do. I service 20+ year old systems that are still working to this day that are configured just the same way.
> 
> thanks for your responses:thumbup:


----------



## Protech

Just to be clear. I'm not trying to attack you camilo. I just call it like I see it.

Keep postin pics:thumbsup:


----------



## Camilo

i hear you protech... 

we do have pressure reliefs on the panels thats why i said theres one on the roof... 

the cold water is above the hot water, there's no way that the hot water is going to backpressure the cold water. if you plumb it with the hot above the cold the water will thermo siphon. we install our systems based on hawaiian electric guidelines. there's a 100 point check that they perform. if you're above their engineers and their specs, then God Bless You. but we have to follow code :thumbup: 

p.s. - the pumps do burn out (at least here) ... customers dont know when the utility shuts their water off, and they use their hot water, and their pumps burn out.


----------



## Protech

I'm not following what you are trying to explain.

Let me show up what I mean. See the picture.


----------



## JoeWright213

*Quick Cost Question...*

Protech, or anyone else out there...:
Do you think that your costs of goods sold in solar thermal have gone down or stayed about the same over the last 2 to 3 years? My sales have been going up, so im getting pretty decent volume discounts with my manufacturer- the issue being that I cant tell whether these big guys are making any strides with bringing THEIR costs down...may seem like a silly question given that my costs as an installer are down. I know that installations have been going up across the US but I mainly ask for the purposes of determining how the market is shaping up for producers. It just seems like the collectors and components should be getting a lot cheaper...?


----------



## Protech

Costs seem pretty flat on solar thermal. The panels do follow the copper market a little though. They went up a bit when copper was sky high. They went back down when copper fell.


----------



## saveonsolar

*No need for check valve*

HI Pro-tech,
I wanted to help Camilo explain the systems a little better..
I can say you might know a little:thumbup: more about solar than him..
but let me help you understand.....
The return line... That is the hot line...is coming back, at the bottom of the water heater....that is below the cold, or feed....
there is NO way that the system can thermo siphon(convection)
Let me teach you a little physics... Hot water rises...
so how in the hell can hot water push cold water all the way back into the tank.. Guess what it can't.
The PR Valve, i couldn't agree with you more, but guess what, they all have PR Valves. The problem is that you don't see them, you see the systems are installed with the highest installation quality in mind...Our signature is on every system.. we take pride in our systems. so we hide and make the piping as clean as possible, something that by looking at you pictures, you just don't care about..It looks like you piping is all over the place, straight to the headers, using the least amount of piping possible.
OK I hope i helped you understand that..
I do have some more beef though..
Di-electric nipples....hahaha so the manufacturer sold that to you.. you put some plastic inside a galvanized nipple and call it di-electric... guess what hero, the galvanized part is the part that is connected to the tank, and yes the doooo corrode and cause leaks.. i have a picture of a water heater that i changed out because the installer was being cheap..
and you use the dip tubes..
another problem.. do you really believe that those PLASTIC dip tubes are designed to take high heat for a long time....No i have changed hundreds of dip tubes as well.
I bet that you don't change the plastic hosebibb at the bottom of the heater, how do you service the system? Have you tried draining a heater after 5 years with that part??doesn't it get plugged???
The pump above the tank line...and yet another NOGO..
It happens all the time...The utility has to shut off the water, for one of the thousands of reasons that they do it(broken water main, repair a main, change out meter,etc) and the home owner has no idea... uses some hot water, and thanks to you air vent on the roof air gets in, some water comes out and the pump is running dry..... not a good thing for a solar pump..
I can go on for days and judge all the errors or faults that i find in your systems but i will stop there..
I have installed thousands of systems in Hawaii,
I have serviced another thousand..
Whenever i see a plumber thinking he knows it all,
it makes me a little ill.
I have a better idea,
Try to learn how other people around the world install solar.
Florida is NOT the solar capital of the world..
Aloha
Ivan


----------



## Protech

:laughing:

I just happened to log-in at lunch. I'll be back to do battle this evening. You have 5-7 hours to edit that post before I pick you to pieces. :whistling2:


----------



## Protech

On second thought, let's make sure it doesn't go anywhere.......



saveonsolar said:


> HI Pro-tech,
> I wanted to help Camilo explain the systems a little better..
> I can say you might know a little:thumbup: more about solar than him..
> but let me help you understand.....
> The return line... That is the hot line...is coming back, at the bottom of the water heater....that is below the cold, or feed....
> there is NO way that the system can thermo siphon(convection)
> Let me teach you a little physics... Hot water rises...
> so how in the hell can hot water push cold water all the way back into the tank.. Guess what it can't.
> The PR Valve, i couldn't agree with you more, but guess what, they all have PR Valves. The problem is that you don't see them, you see the systems are installed with the highest installation quality in mind...Our signature is on every system.. we take pride in our systems. so we hide and make the piping as clean as possible, something that by looking at you pictures, you just don't care about..It looks like you piping is all over the place, straight to the headers, using the least amount of piping possible.
> OK I hope i helped you understand that..
> I do have some more beef though..
> Di-electric nipples....hahaha so the manufacturer sold that to you.. you put some plastic inside a galvanized nipple and call it di-electric... guess what hero, the galvanized part is the part that is connected to the tank, and yes the doooo corrode and cause leaks.. i have a picture of a water heater that i changed out because the installer was being cheap..
> and you use the dip tubes..
> another problem.. do you really believe that those PLASTIC dip tubes are designed to take high heat for a long time....No i have changed hundreds of dip tubes as well.
> I bet that you don't change the plastic hosebibb at the bottom of the heater, how do you service the system? Have you tried draining a heater after 5 years with that part??doesn't it get plugged???
> The pump above the tank line...and yet another NOGO..
> It happens all the time...The utility has to shut off the water, for one of the thousands of reasons that they do it(broken water main, repair a main, change out meter,etc) and the home owner has no idea... uses some hot water, and thanks to you air vent on the roof air gets in, some water comes out and the pump is running dry..... not a good thing for a solar pump..
> I can go on for days and judge all the errors or faults that i find in your systems but i will stop there..
> I have installed thousands of systems in Hawaii,
> I have serviced another thousand..
> Whenever i see a plumber thinking he knows it all,
> it makes me a little ill.
> I have a better idea,
> Try to learn how other people around the world install solar.
> Florida is NOT the solar capital of the world..
> Aloha
> Ivan


----------



## Airgap

I'm already on the edge of my seat waiting on this to happen.....:thumbup:


----------



## SlickRick

I am giving 2 to 1 odds, I'll take Ken. Place your bets before showtime. After the first post all betting is closed.


----------



## Pipe Rat

SaveonSolar to be KO'd in the first round:thumbup:Ladies and gentlemen. Stay Tuned.:laughing:


----------



## ILPlumber

I love a good debate. Just don't get personal. Have fun:thumbup:

I have learned a lot from this thread. For that, I thank you.


----------



## Ron

Piperat said:


> SaveonSolar to be KO'd in the first round:thumbup:Ladies and gentlemen. Stay Tuned.:laughing:


What he said. Remember we are watching. :laughing:


----------



## Protech

See responses in red.



saveonsolar said:


> HI Pro-tech,
> I wanted to help Camilo explain the systems a little better..
> I can say you might know a little:thumbup: more about solar than him..
> but let me help you understand.....
> The return line... That is the hot line...is coming back, at the bottom of the water heater....that is below the cold, or feed....
> there is NO way that the system can thermo siphon(convection) I beg to differ.
> Let me teach you a little physics... Hot water rises...
> so how in the hell can hot water push cold water all the way back into the tank.. Guess what it can't.Very simple, when the tank maxes out during the heating cycle you have hot water in the bottom of the tank. Said hot water is less dense than the cold water in the collector come night fall and the collector water sinks down into the tank as heated bottom tank water rises into the collector. You will lose up to 1/3 of your heat this way. Simple stuff, hot water goes up one pipe and cold water sinks down the other. You are correct in thinking that the upper part of the tank will not lose any heat this way though. Also if the collector return line is lower than the supply line (and that is how you just said that you plumb them) you are also going to experience some re-radiation losses from the freshly heated water as it is picked up during stratification by the collector supply pipe. This heated water is returned to the collector instead of being allowed to stratify past the thermocline. This hurts your solar fraction even more. Your objective in an open loop system is to suck up the coldest water in the tank and send it to the collector so as to maximize heat absorption and minimize re-radiation losses.The way you describe would not be ideal for stratification to occur.
> The PR Valve, i couldn't agree with you more, but guess what, they all have PR Valves. The problem is that you don't see them, you see the systems are installed with the highest installation quality in mind...Our signature is on every system.. we take pride in our systems. so we hide and make the piping as clean as possible, something that by looking at you pictures, you just don't care about..It looks like you piping is all over the place, straight to the headers, using the least amount of piping possible. I'm not sure what you mean when referring to my installs. As far as yours go, I don't see a relief valve on the collector nor an air vent valve. Seeing as how entrained gases become completely insoluble when water reaches it's boiling point, you are going to have allot of gas trapped inside the collector and where your collector thermistor is mounted. This hurts performance as well. If you do have a relief valve, it must be hidden under the collector or something which makes me wonder how it's going to be serviced (that is a part that frequently does need service ya know). You say it's there somewhere but don't say where so I guess I'm just going to have to take your word for it.
> OK I hope i helped you understand that..No, not really but thanks for playing.
> I do have some more beef though..
> Di-electric nipples....hahaha so the manufacturer sold that to you.. you put some plastic inside a galvanized nipple and call it di-electric. No, when did I say that? It's known as a dielectric nipple even though it's not truly dielectric. We have already discussed this topic quite thoroughly on this site and rather than rehashing over it I'll just put this link for you to read and then you can comment further. the reason I put the dip tubes thru the nipples is because that holds all of the water ways open from the galvanic cell corrosion. I do however use only brass FIP adapters when connecting to my galvanized nipples so as to soften the difference in electronegativity between metals as much as possible... guess what hero, the galvanized part is the part that is connected to the tank, and yes the doooo corrode and cause leaks. Broken english, I don't know WTF you are trying to say here. If you want to form a coherent sentence I would be happy to discus what ever point you were trying to make here. Until then, I'm just going to go with "huh:blink:". i have a picture of a water heater that i changed out because the installer was being cheap.. Ok, and how does that pertain to this conversation???
> and you use the dip tubes..
> another problem.. do you really believe that those PLASTIC dip tubes are designed to take high heat for a long time..Yes, I've pulled many leaking 30 year old heaters out and the dip tubes were just fine...No i have changed hundreds of dip tubes as well. That's because they had a defective type of plastic used for the dip tubes and if you were a plumber instead of a solar contractor you would know all about the defective fiasco that effected ALL heater, not just solar heaters.
> I bet that you don't change the plastic hosebibb at the bottom of the heater, how do you service the system? Hose bib? I think the fitting you are referring to is known as a "boiler drain" and yes I usually leave the factory one installed. Have you tried draining a heater after 5 years with that part?? Nope, never had to drain a water heater in my whole carrier as a plumbing contractor.doesn't it get plugged??? It can, but it's not a problem for a plumber with any sort of experience with servicing water heaters.
> The pump above the tank line...and yet another NOGO..
> It happens all the time...The utility has to shut off the water, for one of the thousands of reasons that they do it(broken water main, repair a main, change out meter,etc) and the home owner has no idea... uses some hot water, and thanks to you air vent on the roof air gets in, god forbid that I install a means of vacuum relief so the system can be drained some water comes out and the pump is running dry..... not a good thing for a solar pump.. As I said before, I've only had to replace a few pumps and they all died at 20+ years of age. In order to burn one of those tacos out you would have to run it more or less all day without any water in it and it's pretty unlikely that the city is going to shut the water down all day and even if they did the pump would be running when they did so it would keep itself primed. I suppose at the sacrifice of a clean looking install I could put a loop going back down to keep the pump under the siphon break hole in the heater inlet dip tube. Since pumps fail so rarely I think I'll pass. Also, the water department usually gives notice if they are going to shut the water down for an extended period.
> I can go on for days and judge all the errors or faults that i find in your systems but i will stop there..Please do, that's why I'm here posting my work.
> I have installed thousands of systems in Hawaii,
> I have serviced another thousand..I can see why.
> Whenever i see a plumber thinking he knows it all,
> it makes me a little ill.
> I have a better idea,
> Try to learn how other people around the world install solar.
> Florida is NOT the solar capital of the world..
> Aloha
> Ivan Look buddy, that's the whole reason I'm here. I just started asking questions about how you guys are doing things in Hawaii and you and your boy got all huffy.


----------



## saveonsolar

*Protech*

OMG... you are dense....very at that...
Let me give you a little background for you so you may better understand the whole situation....
I have been doing solar here in Hawaii for 14 years...
I have installed projects in Pearl Harbor Pennisula, Mayor Wrights, Halemanu Homes, just to name a few..
Each of these projects have 350 installs and up.
If i were to take you around the islands you head would spin off, but then again i would never get caught with a xx xxxx next to me....
I have services another thousand from other companies... being in the industry 14 years you see a lot of mistakes..
I learn buddy, unlike you, i know that i am not the best at this.
I am always willing to sit and learn.
You on the other hand know it all.. Your cup is full..
You have yet to understand our plumbing method,
so i will leave you there ,
confused.. thats ok.
I DO install, i repeat I DO install Pressure Relief Valves on the roof.
OK so where do i go from here xxxx, 
I KNOW...
THE WAY YOU PLUMB YOUR TANKS....
OK The nipples....They do corrode... That is bottom line..
The broiler drain... What?? You never drain your heaters???
Are you serious?? Do you do any maintenance??
I would guess not, I believe that you just wait for things to fail, and charge your customers..How long did you say that payback was???
Add Repairs buddy...
When i said some installer are being cheap... I was adding you in the mix..
It cost a little money to change those nipples to brass..Then you never have a problem..same goes with the broiler drain..
I can tell by the whole install you are cheap.
The mounting, the caulking, etc..
let me guess you use mastic, steel lags...what other substandard products do you use??
You would never pass one of our Utility rebate inspections...
Did you get that??? Thats right we have to pass a Utility inspection in order to receive our money.
They will find anything wrong with the system so that they don't pay us...
But YOU are smarter than them.. You should get a job with them...
I just think that you are very naive. Are you still in the ARMY???
I am i veteran myself...I would never get caught with an ARMY shirt..
I will leave you at that..
I hope that you can learn..
Piperat and Ron, I hope tha you two are not as dense as our Boy,
The only people that i can respect at this point is Ron and Airgap..
By the way...I almost forgot... 
The american water heater comes with a 6 year warranty... The company only expects it to last that long...And hopefully you will buy another one in 10. By changing these parts they will last a lot longer...They are in the market to move mass amounts of heaters. when you add the amount that they save by installing these substandard parts you see their savings...
Did you get that???still confused????:blink:


----------



## Ron

saveonsolar

I need you to be a little more civil on here.

I'm just saying.....

Calling someone out on here is looked down on. so lets not go there ok.


----------



## saveonsolar

Ron, I am sorry...but is that u-tube video necessary??
aloha


----------



## Ron

I will remove the YouTube video


----------



## saveonsolar

Much Mahalos


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## Ron

Done now do me that favor I asked, debates are fine but it has to stay civil.


----------



## saveonsolar

Ron, 
I totally understand...
When i write and say that i do install an item on my systems, why question that??
I am Colombian, i can get pretty heated, when pushed..
I will remain civil, and understand that this is a forum for professionals to learn,
I do appreciate your fast response..
aloha,
Ivan


----------



## saveonsolar

It's over... thats ok.. we can learn...:whistling2:


----------



## ILPlumber

You guys can continue discussing it. I enjoy it. Just omit the name calling and personal attacks.

Thanks.


----------



## saveonsolar

Matt,
i love it..
what can we discuss??
set a topic..
i will be honest, plumbing a house is really not my forte.:thumbup:


----------



## Protech

some crappy drawn pics.


----------



## Protech

What you end up with at the end of the night.


----------



## saveonsolar

hehehehe
your still on that?
it doesn't happen..
try plumbing one.. i promise it will not do it...


----------



## ILPlumber

saveonsolar said:


> Matt,
> i love it..
> what can we discuss??
> set a topic..
> i will be honest, plumbing a house is really not my forte.:thumbup:


I plumbed a house in 2003. Not really my forte either. 

I'm sure you will find another topic to discuss quickly.

This board moves rather fast.


----------



## Protech

Stratification bypass due to the collector supply being above the return. This causes re-radiation losses and reduced solar fraction.


----------



## saveonsolar

Like i said before, the utility will find anything so that they don't have to pay us..
if we forget to glue one joint on the insulation, we fail, have to go fix the problem..
If this was a problem, they would fail us....promise....


----------



## saveonsolar

Matt, 
I like your style..


----------



## Protech

Would you care to explain in a coherent sentence using actual known laws of physics why not?



saveonsolar said:


> hehehehe
> your still on that?
> it doesn't happen..
> try plumbing one.. i promise it will not do it...


----------



## saveonsolar

there is a short dip tube that you are missing..hehehe


----------



## saveonsolar

It doesn't...
If the hot was above the cold it would...
The Hot water would have to push the water up to the panels,
then push the water inside the water heater,
it just doesn't happen that way....


----------



## Protech

That doesn't fly with me. I want real answers WHY.



saveonsolar said:


> Like i said before, the utility will find anything so that they don't have to pay us..
> if we forget to glue one joint on the insulation, we fail, have to go fix the problem..
> If this was a problem, they would fail us....promise....


----------



## saveonsolar

You have some physics down, hot water rises... to the top of the tank...when you use the dip tubes, all of your connections are at the top...without a check valve you would loose your hot water... we plumb our tanks with the return at the very bottom......cold above the hot...


----------



## saveonsolar

In some years, you will see a system the way we have done it... you will realize that it is very efficient...and still wonder why...
i can't explain...it just is...why does the earth rotate??
why do we die??
i don't know


----------



## Protech

The cold water in the collector is more dense than the hot water in the tank. The cold collector water sinks down the collector supply pipe at the same time the hot tank water rises up into the collector thru the collector return pipe. This is exactly how passive thermo-siphon solar heaters work (except they do it in reverse and collect heat instead of losing it). It's mot hard to understand. Just go look at a lavalamp.


----------



## ILPlumber

saveonsolar said:


> You have some physics down, hot water rises... to the top of the tank...when you use the dip tubes, all of your connections are at the top...without a check valve you would loose your hot water... we plumb our tanks with the return at the very bottom......cold above the hot...


I can't say as I understand what you are saying. Help me:laughing: Somebody.........

It is not computing.


----------



## ILPlumber

Protech said:


> The cold water in the collector is more dense than the hot water in the tank. The cold collector water sinks down the collector supply pipe at the same time the hot tank water rises up into the collector thru the collector return pipe. This is exactly how passive thermo-siphon solar heaters work (except they do it in reverse and collect heat instead of losing it). It's mot hard to understand. Just go look at a lavalamp.


 
That makes sense


----------



## saveonsolar

Ohhh my...
The bottom of the heater is NOT the hot spot... the top of the tank is....so it's not like a heat lamp..
have you notices the new holes that the american tank has???
we requested that...
it has been engineered that way..
why ask why,
try bud dry...


----------



## SlickRick

saveonsolar said:


> In some years, you will see a system the way we have done it... you will realize that it is very efficient...and still wonder why...
> i can't explain...it just is...why does the earth rotate??
> why do we die??
> i don't know


I'm sure you install a very nice system in compliance with the regulations you have to follow. But we really appreciate technical data to support what you are saying to gain some credibility around here.


----------



## Protech

The earth rotates due to the inertia gained during the accretion phase of planet formation. Typically this inertia is created when pro-planets and other debris begin to orbit each other in ever tightening orbits. Think of 2 ice skaters that circle each other and then lock hands. After they lock hands and pull each other together the rate at which they spin accelerates. 

We die for many reason. Essentially death is the permanent loss of cognition due to brain damage that cannot be reversed and the resultant shut down of the bodily organs . The causes are far to numerous to post but a short list would look like: impact trauma from car accident, cancer, blood loss from punctures etc etc.

What else can I help you with today? 



saveonsolar said:


> In some years, you will see a system the way we have done it... you will realize that it is very efficient...and still wonder why...
> i can't explain...it just is...why does the earth rotate??
> why do we die??
> i don't know


----------



## ILPlumber

I'm just going to literally pull numbers out of my buttocks.......

If ya have 130 degree water in your storage tank and 60 degree water in the collector. The heat will go up there if there is no check valve.


----------



## Protech

It is when the tank has reached full capacity from collecting heat all day. Then when the collector is no longer irradiated with sunlight, the process reverses and you lose 1/3 of the heat in the tank (the bottom third) as shown in my diagram. 



saveonsolar said:


> Ohhh my...
> The bottom of the heater is NOT the hot spot... the top of the tank is....so it's not like a heat lamp..
> have you notices the new holes that the american tank has???
> we requested that...
> it has been engineered that way..
> why ask why,
> try bud dry...


----------



## Protech

See, this stuff aint hard. :yes:



Matt said:


> I'm just going to literally pull numbers out of my buttocks.......
> 
> If ya have 130 degree water in your storage tank and 60 degree water in the collector. The heat will go up there if there is no check valve.


----------



## ILPlumber

The earth rotates because God wanted it that way.

There's a new debate fer ya.:laughing:


----------



## saveonsolar

OK see the pic on page 11 thermosiphon at dusk....
The cold is above the hot...
so what protech is saying that the hot water at the bottom, which is not the hottest in the tank is going to push the water up to the very highest point of the whole system, then down the cold, pushing into the tank???
it can't. you need a pump to do that.. physics, doesn't allow that..The bottom of the tank is the coldest part of the tank. 
Now if the return line were above the feed line, then yes.. it happens, because it is going up to the lower part of the panel... not the highest section... it doesn't happen, i'm sorry if i'm not making it clear...it just doen't happen..


----------



## saveonsolar

i like matt's response for the rotation of the earth better


----------



## Protech

Oh brother. Hang on. I get you a link.....


----------



## saveonsolar

protech, get a hold of hawaii solar energy association,
they will clear you mind better


----------



## Protech

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermosiphon


----------



## Protech

I'm not surprised.



saveonsolar said:


> i like matt's response for the rotation of the earth better


----------



## ILPlumber

I like this thread. Please don't make me shut it down. Please. 

Removing posts is not something I enjoy doing. 

Here's a refresher in case you haven't read them:

*Users shall treat each other with respect at all times on plumbingzone.com. Name calling, personal attacks, or other inappropriate behavior will not be allowed and may cause you account to be banned.* 
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----------



## ILPlumber

Protech said:


> I'm not surprised.


Oh that's it! You and me are gonna throw down at the bike rack after school:furious::laughing::laughing:


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## Protech

OK. I'll B nice. He's just frustrating me :wacko:


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## ILPlumber

Protech said:


> OK. I'll B nice. He's just frustrating me :wacko:


By my highly refined Illinois comprehension. You have been nice Ken:laughing:


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## Protech

I meant no disrespect. Put down the pipe wrench dude! 



Matt said:


> Oh that's it! You and me are gonna throw down at the bike rack after school:furious::laughing::laughing:


----------



## saveonsolar

wow i wish i could post a pic... it seeems as though i have to post a lot before i can post a pic..
i have a nice picture from a class that i took 8 years ago..
it's called bottom return, FORCED circulation system.... look for it,
you will understand..


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## Ron

Pictures can be posted from post #1, go for it, post your picture.


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## Protech

I'm very familiar with that setup as mine are the same thing.



saveonsolar said:


> wow i wish i could post a pic... it seeems as though i have to post a lot before i can post a pic..
> i have a nice picture from a class that i took 8 years ago..
> it's called bottom return, FORCED circulation system.... look for it,
> you will understand..


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## saveonsolar

I don't understand why we you are posting a picture of a house, and fixture??
not the same


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## saveonsolar

protech, not trying to call you out, but your systems are not forced..
you return to the top with a dip tube, different case


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## Protech

The definition of a forced system is: any circulation system that depends of a pump to force the hot water in the collector down into the tank.

Since my systems use a pump to force the hot-lighter water into the lower tank, and the cold-heavier tank water up into the collector, they are by definition forced. What part of that don't you understand?


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## Protech

huh? come again?



saveonsolar said:


> I don't understand why we you are posting a picture of a house, and fixture??
> not the same


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## ILPlumber

Protech said:


> huh? come again?


I think he is referring to the random picture thread.


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## saveonsolar

your picture for thermosiphon.
was house fixtures, not solar panels


----------



## ILPlumber

saveonsolar said:


> your picture for thermosiphon.
> was house fixtures, not solar panels


That's right on! Also, I have never seen blue and red water either. Come on Protech. Let's fix these drawings.:laughing:


----------



## saveonsolar

sorry i was eating


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## saveonsolar

OK here you go,
thanks for allowing pic
the only difference is that i come down with my pump,
so that they do not burn out,
very common in Hawaii


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## Protech

You are really going to make me spoon feed you like this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Solar_heater_dsc00632.jpg



saveonsolar said:


> your picture for thermosiphon.
> was house fixtures, not solar panels


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## Protech

That picture resembles my systems more than it does yours :whistling2:



saveonsolar said:


> View attachment 5161
> 
> OK here you go,
> thanks for allowing pic
> the only difference is that i come down with my pump,
> so that they do not burn out,
> very common in Hawaii


----------



## saveonsolar

just out of curiosity, protech how long have you been doing SOLAR?


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## saveonsolar

How so??
you stay on top 
where is the check valve??
i don't see one


----------



## ILPlumber

Protech said:


> You are really going to make me spoon feed you like this?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Solar_heater_dsc00632.jpg


Here comes the airplane. Open the hangar...........:laughing:


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## saveonsolar

Yea i know all about those systems, SOLARHART, SOLAREDWARDS
so what r u trying to teach me??
i am confused now


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## saveonsolar

I was taught to walk before i could run,
paddle before i could swim..


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## Protech

BTW, the FSEC disagrees with your "supply on top, return on the bottom" configuration.


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## saveonsolar

Sorry wrong diagram... the pump is BELOW the HOT..
Try again.


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## Protech

I'm trying to get you to understand the concept of thermosiphoning as you clearly don't understand the driving forces behind it.



saveonsolar said:


> Yea i know all about those systems, SOLARHART, SOLAREDWARDS
> so what r u trying to teach me??
> i am confused now


----------



## saveonsolar

You will NEVER find one... The check valve is always optional..
So how long???
have you taken any classes??
I'm confused

I know the concept..
very well.. It doesn't happen on my systems..
DOESN'T

It takes time to develop skills and knowledge..
Like i posted yesterday, try to learn from others..
I have been doing solar a long time..I am into Photovoltaic now.
Thermo is really easy. simple..


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## Protech

You know, if you would use industry standard terminology this would be a whole lot easier on everyone. The "hot" is where the water leaves the tank to supply heated water to the fixtures. I think what you are trying to refer to is what is known as the "collector return". And that's not what you said earlier. So, which is it?

Post #88:
"_The return line... That is the hot line...is coming back, at the bottom of the water heater....that is below the cold, or feed....
there is NO way that the system can thermo siphon(convection)_"



saveonsolar said:


> Sorry wrong diagram... the pump is BELOW the HOT..
> Try again.


----------



## SlickRick

Well, I'm going to bed now. If the contender throws a haymaker give me a call.


----------



## saveonsolar

I'll give credit where it is due..You do great plumbing work by looking at your pics.. finding leaks, demo and repair.. But in solar i say you are about 12 years behind, just my guess


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## Protech

WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY!?!?!?!?!?

If I was about to pay you to install one of these systems in my home and asked you that question, and you responded "it just doesn't" I would throw you out of my home and call someone else.

So how bout it Mr. big shot Hawaiian solar contractor? WHY!




saveonsolar said:


> I know the concept..
> very well.. It doesn't happen on my systems..
> DOESN'T


----------



## saveonsolar

You showed a diagram with the pump at the very bottom of the heater..
The system will back feed at night with out s check valve in that case..
we have our return line coming in at the bottom, like on the diagram that i posted..
if you look at my diagram, there is NO check valve.. Do you get it???


----------



## Protech

I guess the whole state of Florida is then. I'm the guy that gets called in to fix other peoples messes and diagnose why there system isn't working. You talk big, but I'm staring at page upon page of useless garble next to your user name. Go and answer some of the questions about your methods in clear intelligible English sighting factual data and known publications on the subject. Until you do that, I'm no longer willing to donate my time to you.



saveonsolar said:


> I'll give credit where it is due..You do great plumbing work by looking at your pics.. finding leaks, demo and repair.. But in solar i say you are about 12 years behind, just my guess


----------



## Protech

Yes. And I also hold both a master plumbers license as well as a solar contractors license.



saveonsolar said:


> hehehe my systems are proven... they work...
> Look at my picture..
> Again, Have you taken any classes????
> Are you smarter than some of these training centers????


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## saveonsolar

HOw long>??
Classes??


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## Protech

You mean this diagram? And yes, it will still thermosiphon. I'm done with you. Your talking in circles. Good night.

PS. your diagram does not specify whether or not there is a dip tube.
If there is a dip tube you will only lose the bottom 3rd of the stored heat. If there is NOT a dip tube you will lose ALL of it and on top of that you will cause the electrical element to kick on even more when the system starts up first thing in the morning and all that cool water drop right by the upper thermostat.



saveonsolar said:


> You showed a diagram with the pump at the very bottom of the heater..
> The system will back feed at night with out s check valve in that case..
> we have our return line coming in at the bottom, like on the diagram that i posted..
> if you look at my diagram, there is NO check valve.. Do you get it???


----------



## saveonsolar

It's funny we went off on this thermosiphon bs and avoided some very intersting points..
You never services your solar systems..
you never drain them.
you use galvanized parts,
master plumber..
really


----------



## saveonsolar

Like i aid, this is straight from a solar class that i took..
you have yet to prove any of your schooling or experience..
you know nothing..


----------



## saveonsolar

So do you use mastic??
how do you seal your penetrations??
do you hit rafters??
really


----------



## saveonsolar

i noticed that you use side clips instead of rack..
how does that affect the asphalt shingle??
doesn't the weight of the panel dig into the roof tile??
really??
I also notices that that clips that are mounted on the side of the panel pull the side of the panels.. it does, how many backing have you lost??


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## saveonsolar

Another interesting picture...You don't use pipe support.... doesn't the pipe bounce and move.. that causes premature failure on the headers on the panels..
you might wanna consider putting pitch cups, or securing you pipe no more than 2 feet from panel..I'm just saying..


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## SlickRick

Will you turn out the light and lock up when your finished?


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## saveonsolar

goodnight slickrick


----------



## Redwood

Umm Ivan You have to either attach the pics using the paper clip in the top row of buttons of the reply box or, upload to photo bucket and use the img tag to get pictures to appear.

We can't see what is on your hard drive...:laughing:

See ya tomorrow buddy its past midnight here...

I'll give you a hint on debate with Protech...

We have debated several times and I was correct....

He is pretty smart and a tough opponent in a debate.
If you are correct you will have to prove it!
You cannot get anywhere by not backing up what you say with factual data.
It won't fly!:no:

He is also young and very eager to learn.
In one case I proposed an experiment where he could see for himself that what I was saying was true and he carried out that experiment finding what I said was indeed true.

I'm just saying if you intend to prove anything here you better line up your facts and present them better...:whistling2:


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## ILPlumber

I deleted about 6 worthless posts this morning. Learn how to post a photo saveon...... 

You can search for the method or ask Protech he is our Technical Support:laughing:


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## saveonsolar

*pictures*

hehehe sorry guys...i didn't post the pics...
i wanted to see where i saved them in my computer..pictures/ugly jobs..hehehe
this is what i show customers , what we will not do
ok...let me try that again








OK so my question...
did you hit the rafters??
I don't think so.. you see the holes are @ 52" center to center on the mounting bases...
are the beams in florida not spaced @ 2" center to center???
I'm confused??
:blink:
So did you just hit one rafter???none???
I guess hurricanes or high winds not a factor in Florida..
OK


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## saveonsolar

*TPR vent???*

What r u serious??
TPR vented up???
so this pipe always has water..
i'm lost again..


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## saveonsolar

You backing is getting pulled out.... this happens because the clips are pulling at the sides, notice that the clips are not right below, but at an angle.... not good i will post another picture of what it looks like.


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## saveonsolar

I'm not sure on this one..but are you suppose to soldier half a copper fitting at a time??
i thought that was a no go...
i'm just saying...


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## saveonsolar

:thumbup:
looks great, if you are designing a water slide...all soft???
It would have looked a lot better with 2 90's
then again who's looking,
and what about support for the pipe??
i know, it doesn't need it right...i guess all that stress is ok on the headers


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## saveonsolar

OK here is the picture of as leaky tank..
This contractor went beyond our good friend.
He used brass instead of a copper fitting to minimize the problem.
But as you may see, it leaked..that's right...the connection from the tank was rusted all the way.... sorry dear home owner that is going to be $1500
I guess you are going to have to wait a couple of more years for your return on investment..You get the picture????


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## saveonsolar

I love this picture...WHO"S watching???hehehe nobody i guess
It looks like our good friends job...hehehehe
I would not want this on my roof


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## saveonsolar

I like this job....It shows our style....4 different contractors said it could't be done....as you can see one of our guys is installing the PR valve on the top right corner...I love pictures...its like 1000 words....beat this...:thumbup:


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## saveonsolar

If you are getting a solar job installed and they are installing an American solar water heater, demand that they change out the galvanized nipples


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## saveonsolar

:no:
This is what happens when you install those cheap side clip, they pull out the side of the panel, and make the backing fall out, not a good installation...
Don't let you installer do this..


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## saveonsolar

[/ATTACH]
sorry i didn't post the picture of the tank and the galvanized nipples...
make sure that you make them change that out..
Maximized your investment...Don't let the installer short change YOU..
aloha


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## saveonsolar

OK, there are some more picture.....please post more pictures so that i may tear into them..
I am looking for a picture of the damage that the flush clip causes on the asphalt shingle..
They dig in....By the way, Mastic 208 or any sealant like that is not good(silicone is bad too)
avoid it....


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## TheMaster

If you ever run out of pipe dope....look that job up and take some off of those connections:laughing: You realize all that on the outside does't help dont you?:whistling2:


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## Airgap

If you can fly me out there Saveonsolar I think I'll be able to understand better....Let me know...Probably take me a week to really understand this solar stuff...:thumbsup:


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## saveonsolar

hehe i love the post...
I'm not worried about supplies...I charge enough to use on my jobs, and we do have well supplied trucks...
I would be careful about talking madness. your solar job is not the best..


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## saveonsolar

we have a lot of hacks here....I don't like that...makes everybody in the industry look bad...


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## saveonsolar

airgap, what r u trying to understand????


----------



## LEAD INGOT

Airgap said:


> If you can fly me out there Saveonsolar I think I'll be able to understand better....Let me know...Probably take me a week to really understand this solar stuff...:thumbsup:


 That's just funny stuff right there.


----------



## SlickRick

saveonsolar said:


> airgap, what r u trying to understand????


He's trying to understand how he can get a free trip out of you. kind of a working vacation.


----------



## TheMaster

Whats the best brand flat panel collector and why?


----------



## Airgap

It may take 2 weeks....I'm kind of dense....


----------



## saveonsolar

Nice Airgap... i know the hot weather can make you really dense..hehehehe
as far as collectors go....i like three brands...
Sunearth which is manufactured in California
Morningstart manufactured in Florida
Sunpro manufactured in Hawaii

I believe that sunearth and morning star are very similiar, as far as btu output warranty and durability.
they both have a 10 year warranty, and good all around panel.
The Sunpro has a 12 year warranty but the BTU output is not as good as the first two...
I like to look at the sunpro like a volvo. nice strong panel that can take the elements very well.
mornigstar and sunearth like a ferrari


----------



## saveonsolar

HonAdv 

Nimitz lanes to shut for water-main leak detection: http://bit.ly/cG5eIQ
about 1 hour ago via twitterfeed

Hopefully nobody around Nimitz with a solar system uses their hot water for the next couple of hours...
I might be getting a service call to change out a pump above the tank water line..:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## nhmaster3015

Buderus makes the best flat panels and if you argue with me I'll beat you, I swear to god I will fight you till the DEATH :laughing:


----------



## saveonsolar

where is that panel made??
How can i get a hold of one..why do you think that it is the best??


----------



## saveonsolar

nhmaster, seems like a good panel, but we design our systems according to a utility program, and unless the panel is listed by them, we cannot use it


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## nhmaster3015

I believe they are made right here in NH at their plant in Londonderry. Really nice panel. Expensive, but well made. 

I've been in the solar industry since the early 70's. Not much has really changed. Panels are manufactured much better and the efficiency is slightly better than it was, but other than than, the only big change is that we can now buy packaged units and no longer have to design and pick products and put together stuff from a hodge podge bunch of stuff.


----------



## saveonsolar

i like the Sunpro panels,
locally made, thick siding, 12 year warranty.
we have two main warehouses here with a plethora of parts..
one stop shops type of deals..
it's nice..
I think that solar thermal has very little room for improvement. 
Technology has been pretty much the same for decades..
Other than online monitoring all the devices are pretty much the same.
Photovoltaic on the other hand is a new and developing industry..


----------



## Protech

Ok Mr. solar pro, empty your cup so that it may be filled.

The first picture is of a heater that I removed today. Notice the brass connected directly to steel (like you do on your tanks).

On the next 2 pictures you will see what happens when you connect brass to steel(like you do).

The 4th picture shows how this happens when you connect a brass nipple to a steel water heater tank (like you do).

The 5th picture shows how I do my installs with the factory installed dielectric nipples (and yes saveonsolar, I do realize they are not truly dielectric. Go read the thread on dielectric fittings that I posted the link to earlier in this thread.) You will notice that when done this way, the water ways cannot become clogged with galvanic corrosion. It's also the method approved by basically all water heater manufacturers and mechanical engineers. I guess I'm wrong in what I'm doing though. When I get done with this post, I'm going to go dig up some pictures of heaters that did have dielectric fitting installed and you will see the difference.

Try not to spout of too much erroneous garbage while I'm gone M'kay? Why don't you draw a diagram showing why I'm wrong about this instead of just changing the subject or typing short un-backed denials without demonstrating your points? So far this thread has contained a train wreck of random unsubstantiated statements and I'm afraid people will not want to read about solar due to all the poor grammar and random direction. If you wish to debate, then do it like an educated adult.



saveonsolar said:


> [/ATTACH]
> sorry i didn't post the picture of the tank and the galvanized nipples...
> make sure that you make them change that out..
> Maximized your investment...Don't let the installer short change YOU..
> aloha


----------



## TheMaster

Have you ever made a diptube out of copper? make it out of regular 1/2" copper pipe by removing the heaters diptube and cut your copper about 2" longer..(i cut mine alittle longer than that but this can cause the water heater to "stack" easier) Ok now flare the 1/2" copper and drop it into the copper mip adapter then insert your 3/4 copper pipe and solder it while making sure your new copper diptube stay's straight(letting it hang vertically while you solder the copper pipe in works great to keep it plumb). Now drill you a 1/8" hole about 3 or 4" from the threads of the male adapter and you have completed your new copper diptube/cold water heater supply. No corrosion can stop the flow to the bottom of the tank. That doesn't solve the problem for the hot tho.....unless you use the brass. With that said my water heater has copper on the hot and cold with a diptube i built inserted like i described above and its 10 years old and its worked fine since the day i installed it. Plenty of flow and hot water.


----------



## Protech

Now that we have seen what a brass on steel connection looks like after many years. Let's look at a heater that was installed correctly with dielectric nipples. 

Notice how all the ports are wide open. Notice how the dip tube holds the port open. I install my solar heaters with dip tubes going thru the dielectric nipples (not under them). In this way full flow is assured.

Now, would you care to come back with something ON THIS SUBJECT before we go down to the next point of contention?


----------



## Protech

While that is very clever TM, the whole point is to reduce galvanic corrosion by separating your copper from your steel tank as much as possible. I really don't want to get into it with you in this thread as I'm hell bent on getting to the bottom of "who's who" with this saveonsolar guy. If you would like to discuss this topic further I would really like it if it was in it's own thread. 



TheMaster said:


> Have you ever made a diptube out of copper? make it out of regular 1/2" copper pipe by removing the heaters diptube and cut your copper about 2" longer..(i cut mine alittle longer than that but this can cause the water heater to "stack" easier) Ok now flare the 1/2" copper and drop it into the copper mip adapter then insert your 3/4 copper pipe and solder it while making sure your new copper diptube stay's straight(letting it hang vertically while you solder the copper pipe in works great to keep it plumb). Now drill you a 1/8" hole about 3 or 4" from the threads of the male adapter and you have completed your new copper diptube/cold water heater supply. No corrosion can stop the flow to the bottom of the tank. That doesn't solve the problem for the hot tho.....unless you use the brass. With that said my water heater has copper on the hot and cold with a diptube i built inserted like i described above and its 10 years old and its worked fine since the day i installed it. Plenty of flow and hot water.


----------



## Protech

Now there is something that you and I can agree on. 



saveonsolar said:


> i like the Sunpro panels,
> locally made, thick siding, 12 year warranty.
> we have two main warehouses here with a plethora of parts..
> one stop shops type of deals..
> it's nice..
> I think that solar thermal has very little room for improvement.
> Technology has been pretty much the same for decades..
> Other than online monitoring all the devices are pretty much the same.
> Photovoltaic on the other hand is a new and developing industry..


----------



## saveonsolar

what i love more than anything is how you post pictures and say that this is the way i do it....stop being ignorant....please hero...
do not be ignorant...it irks me....
Ok you can clearly see that the fitting coming out of the tank is a galvanized nipple....are my eyes playing tricks on me....
i don't connect copper to steel like YOU do..
I go Brass.... thats right let me repeat my self since you have a hard head BRASS>.
ok anyways answer some of my questions..
so why do you use those bases???
don't they dig into the roof???
what about rafters???
don't you hit them???
what kind of bolts??
This is a solar roof right???


----------



## Protech

I think you meant "morning star". And that's not the manufacturer, it's the model name. The manufacturer is AET and I use them too. I use the "eagle sun" though not the "morning star". To each his own, I like the eagle sun. I don't have a problem with SunEarth. They have quite a few panels around here installed that I service. I don't use them though as they manufactured so far away. If they were closer I would give them a shot.

I'll tell you who to stay away from is "Chromagen". They SUCK with a capital "S". I've had nothing but problem with those units. I won't even touch them anymore. Terrible design. They only have 3/8" runner tubes and the tubes are very weak where they have been welded (yes welded) to the fins. Crappity crap crap crapidge! :furious:



saveonsolar said:


> Nice Airgap... i know the hot weather can make you really dense..hehehehe
> as far as collectors go....i like three brands...
> Sunearth which is manufactured in California
> Morningstart manufactured in Florida
> Sunpro manufactured in Hawaii
> 
> I believe that sunearth and morning star are very similiar, as far as btu output warranty and durability.
> they both have a 10 year warranty, and good all around panel.
> The Sunpro has a 12 year warranty but the BTU output is not as good as the first two...
> I like to look at the sunpro like a volvo. nice strong panel that can take the elements very well.
> mornigstar and sunearth like a ferrari


----------



## saveonsolar

By the way... that happens to you... you fail to do maintenance..
Nope, never had to drain a water heater in my whole carrier as a plumbing contractor.
That your straight quote...
if you do maintenance you would not have electrolysis going on up there..
bottom line:thumbup:

ps nice to have you hereheheheh

I love that picture...
ok here is a scenario
a mechanic pull out a valve on a car and says look at all this sludge
it's due to blah blah blah blah.
never mind changing the oil just change the engine..
:laughing:
maintenance is the key word here

I do have another question..
do you put your heaters on a timer???
or just leave them on alll the time???


----------



## Protech

Not so fast buddy. You are one slippery fish, stay on topic! Pictures don't lie. 

Look at the picture one of my installs. Show me where there is copper touching steel. Remember, no changing the subject until we finish this.



saveonsolar said:


> what i love more than anything is how you post pictures and say that this is the way i do it....stop being ignorant....please hero...
> do not be ignorant...it irks me....
> Ok you can clearly see that the fitting coming out of the tank is a galvanized nipple....are my eyes playing tricks on me....
> i don't connect copper to steel like YOU do..
> I go Brass.... thats right let me repeat my self since you have a hard head BRASS>.
> ok anyways answer some of my questions..
> so why do you use those bases???
> don't they dig into the roof???
> what about rafters???
> don't you hit them???
> what kind of bolts??
> This is a solar roof right???


----------



## saveonsolar

who showers @ 3 am???
why keep the water hot???
Ohhh i know Menehunes:laughing:


----------



## saveonsolar

sorry buddy the one on the left is copper


----------



## saveonsolar

i do seee that you didn't post the one with the TPR going up
hahahaha


----------



## Protech

Funny how you keep changing the subject to divert attention away from how I'm pinning you down with pictures..:whistling2: 

So you going play ball or keep 2-stepping?



saveonsolar said:


> who showers @ 3 am???
> why keep the water hot???
> Ohhh i know Menehunes:laughing:


----------



## saveonsolar

like i said.. you might have more experience than me on plumbing,
but in solar you r 12 years behind..


----------



## saveonsolar

I'm just asking you general solar questions....you just like to talk down, avoid questions..


----------



## saveonsolar

look back and answer...just avoid all the prior pics...step back HERO


----------



## saveonsolar

12 years behind
hahahaha
maybe more


----------



## saveonsolar

hey by the way i was on CNN last night and read this exact claim

Think of 2 ice skaters that circle each other and then lock hands. After they lock hands and pull each other together the rate at which they spin accelerates. 
where did you get that protech??


----------



## Protech

Here let me make that bigger for you.



saveonsolar said:


> sorry buddy the one on the left is copper


----------



## saveonsolar

Ohhh ok i'm sorry you are right there... i just figured that you are being soooo cheap on the rest of the install you would go there too


----------



## Protech

Dance all you want. Act a childish as you like. But just know that the people who read this will be able to tell who is the teacher and who is the student. 

Stay with the the discussion about connecting to the heater the right way or continue to 2-step and show your true colors. Your choice.


----------



## saveonsolar

i would zooom out though, you can already see some corrosion on the TPR.. tighten it up or its going to get worse, like the picture that i posted


----------



## saveonsolar

I do have some extra dope....it would help
hahahahaha


----------



## Protech

<few> That was like pulling teeth. 

OK, since we've have now established how I do mine. Let's talk about yours so that we can finally move on to another subject. Let me go dig up yours. BRB.



saveonsolar said:


> Ohhh ok i'm sorry you are right there... i just figured that you are being soooo cheap on the rest of the install you would go there too


----------



## saveonsolar

Not sooo fast..
what about your mounting...????
bolts???
lets chat


----------



## Ron

This has to be a record for views on this thread, nearing 2500 views. :laughing:


----------



## Protech

Dude, WTF are you talking about? That heater did not even have any water in yet when that picture was taken. I had just prefabricated the heater at that point and it had not even been filled with water yet. :bangin:



saveonsolar said:


> i would zooom out though, you can already see some corrosion on the TPR.. tighten it up or its going to get worse, like the picture that i posted


----------



## saveonsolar

Its funny, someone told me that arguing with you was difficult. i know you avoid all the questions in which you know you are wrong..
attack the person on other irrelevant topics.
and go into a deep drown out BS discussion..
Answer my questions..
What kind of sealant do you use?/
do you hit rafters??? 
what about the bases you use??/ how do you avoid DAMAGE to the roof?
These are BIG questions...
Roofs can leak, panels can fly off,
Don't avoid these questions HERO


----------



## saveonsolar

help me understand this one....
how did you hit rafters????
all of them???
if you don't hit all 4 its not rated for any wind


----------



## ILPlumber

saveonsolar,

This has got to be a record for most posts by a new user in a 24 hour period.

I would rather argue solar with my 90 year old grandfather. I believe he is less set in his ways than you are.

Protech has earned my respect by his actions here. I would like to respect you, but it's hard right now. Do something to help me clear that hurdle.

Thanks!
Matt


----------



## saveonsolar

Hey i am calling it how i see it.. the TPR has a little brown(rust) on the right hand side...i'm not questioning how it got there, i'm just calling it how i see it...you didn't even tighten it up, look at all the treads you have left 

Yea protech has 3800 post, avoiding answers, just chopping people down,
it is what it is.. I am set because this is something that i DO know..I have asked alot of questions... Not one answer.. let's be real

How did you hit those rafters???you didn't,
go fix it before a hurricane takes those panels:furious:


----------



## Protech

I promise you we will go line by line on every one of those. I'm not going to randomly jump around with you though. We are going to see who's who on the subject of tank connections and when we've put it to bed we will move on to each one of the points of contention (And I'm SOOO looking forward to it too).

OK back on track. 

The first picture is the one of your installs from earlier in the thread. You have brass nipples threaded into the steel tank right? That is what you've been saying all this time right? OK then.

The second picture is my diagram from earlier. See why your install is going to fail?

The third picture shows how your fittings will looks in 10-20 years.

What do you have to say about this? Am I missing something here? You tell me? If you agree that you are doing it wrong then I will gladly let you pick the next point of discussion and we will explore it just as thoroughly as I did this one. If you disagree, then I want some answers with references proving your point.

What will it be saveonsolar?



saveonsolar said:


> Its funny, someone told me that arguing with you was difficult. i know you avoid all the questions in which you know you are wrong..
> attack the person on other irrelevant topics.
> and go into a deep drown out BS discussion..
> Answer my questions..
> What kind of sealant do you use?/
> do you hit rafters???
> what about the bases you use??/ how do you avoid DAMAGE to the roof?
> These are BIG questions...
> Roofs can leak, panels can fly off,
> Don't avoid these questions HERO


----------



## saveonsolar

watch he is going to post some random picture, say blah blah blah
so what type of sealant???bolts???simple questions..
what about the damage to the asphalt..
these are general solar questions..


----------



## ILPlumber

saveonsolar said:


> Its funny, someone told me that arguing with you was difficult. i know you avoid all the questions in which you know you are wrong.. Ah.. You've been pm'ing with TheMaster:laughing:
> attack the person on other irrelevant topics.
> and go into a deep drown out BS discussion..
> Answer my questions..
> What kind of sealant do you use?/ Beezwax
> do you hit rafters??? Maybe he hits one rafter and puts blocking in from below on the other leg.
> what about the bases you use??/ how do you avoid DAMAGE to the roof?
> These are BIG questions... If you don;t use all the bases, the run does not score. / He's careful.
> Roofs can leak, panels can fly off, People with God complexes can argue with you on the net.....
> Don't avoid these questions HERO


I have an idea. We need to FINISH a topic in this thread before moving on.

You guys pick your first disagreed point and discuss IT. After that, take another disagreed point and discuss that. And so on and so forth.

If we see a certain point that needs a thread of it's own, we will make it it's own thread.

Many thanks.


----------



## saveonsolar

Noooo HERO,
The tank that you showed us was no less than 10 years old..
You have posted that you do not drain or service any heaters, in that case you can expect to see that kind of electrolysis going on...
MAINTENANCE
By the way in that heater that piece was connected to a galvanized pipe


----------



## Protech

Sorry, not until you answer post 248



saveonsolar said:


> watch he is going to post some random picture, say blah blah blah
> so what type of sealant???bolts???simple questions..
> what about the damage to the asphalt..
> these are general solar questions..


----------



## saveonsolar

what about the damage to the asphalt shingle.???
we are talking of thousands of dollars in damage when water goes into a house... stop showing irrelevant items HERO:thumbup:

hehehehe wtf not until you answer post number blah blah blah blah bklah
you are hard head

I see more leaky roof than anything else... i have experience on the roof..
you just did a conventional heater today:thumbup:
what a sad case


----------



## ILPlumber

Start posting something that is more than pot-stirring. 

Let's see some substance.

Hurry.............


----------



## Protech

See responses in red.



saveonsolar said:


> Noooo HERO,
> The tank that you showed us was no less than 10 years old..Which picture? Give me a post # so that I can respond to your question.
> You have posted that you do not drain or service any heaters (Care to produce a quote on that one? :whistling2: I didn't think so, that's because you are now putting words in my mouth), in that case you can expect to see that kind of electrolysis going on...
> MAINTENANCE
> By the way in that heater that piece was connected to a galvanized pipe


----------



## saveonsolar

i see why qualified people leave this forum.. you have an person that think he knows it all trying to run S##T..
You should be a lawyer, you would be better than a solar pro,
Do Florida a favor


----------



## Protech

Matt, I'm truly trying to make a thread that other people can read and actually get something out of. I just can't ever seem to get him to finnish a debate. I don't know if it's because he knows he's going to lose, or if he just has A.D.D. .......... Does anyone have any Ritalin?



Matt said:


> Start posting something that is more than pot-stirring.
> 
> Let's see some substance.
> 
> Hurry.............


----------



## saveonsolar

Not until you answer some of my questions..
How do you deal with the damage that those bases cause on the roof and panel??
They do dig in.... do you hit rafters??


----------



## Protech

Funny you should say that, my mother is an attorney. I take that as a compliment BTW. Thank you.



saveonsolar said:


> i see why qualified people leave this forum.. you have an person that think he knows it all trying to run S##T..
> You should be a lawyer, you would be better than a solar pro,
> Do Florida a favor


----------



## saveonsolar

why can't you answer some questions??? you came into the forum today, post some random pictures of a job that you did today and post, This is how you do it..
you avoid all the prior post..wtf?
Who died and made you god


----------



## retired rooter

I skipped from first post to last to ask a question?? I have a cousin who wants me to help him with some plg on a new smaller home he is building in a county with no plg inspectors on my familys old home place. I will prob end up there some day Its 125 acres and my part is 12 acres next to his. .Anyway he worked for Alabama Power Co until he retired and traveled the world checking out ALT energy sources.To make long story short he his planning a smaller home behind his present home and gonna try to make it an extreme energy saving home . He is talking about wind turbines(to generate elect) as small as our regular roof vents that take hot air out of attic and solar pannels, as well as 1 or 2 windmills, his property is on top of a mountain , mostly old farm land no real big trees .all he wants me for is to help with kitchens and bathrooms .When folks talk (even my 1st cousin) about being hooked up to power grid and having a meter like everyone else and it turning, backward?? I know he knows more about what he has been doing the last 35 yrs but I have never seen a power meter go backward eccept on TV. I cant wait until spring and watch this project start . I hope he has never seen this site, because if what he says works I gotta eat some crow!! Running a complete home well pump and all ,this I gotta see ,I am in alabama, but I told him Im from missouri on this SHOW ME --- I WILL READ WHOLE THREAD TOMMORROW AND WILL PROB GET MOST OF MY QUESTIONS ANSWERED


----------



## saveonsolar

its not a compliment.... it's a sh&&Y trait... it keeps you from learning

I would talk to protech, he knows it allllll


----------



## Protech

Ok, since you just absolutely refuse to finish the heater connections topic, I will go back thru the whole thread and copy your points and reference the original post # and then make my counter points. My prediction is that you will not see it through though and just keep dancing around so as to not be pinned down.

Give me some time as there is quite a bit to compile, reference and respond to.



saveonsolar said:


> Not until you answer some of my questions..
> How do you deal with the damage that those bases cause on the roof and panel??
> They do dig in.... do you hit rafters??


----------



## SlickRick

Somehow I feel like I am watching " The Good, The Bad, The Ugly" Featuring " Protech" as "Blondie" and "Saveon" as "Tuco".


----------



## Cal

retired rooter said:


> I skipped from first post to last to ask a question?? I have a cousin who wants me to help him with some plg on a new smaller home he is building in a county with no plg inspectors on my familys old home place. I will prob end up there some day Its 125 acres and my part is 12 acres next to his. .Anyway he worked for Alabama Power Co until he retired and traveled the world checking out ALT energy sources.To make long story short he his planning a smaller home behind his present home and gonna try to make it an extreme energy saving home . He is talking about wind turbines as small as our regular roof vents that take hot air out of attic and solar pannels, as well as 1 or 2 windmills his property is on top of a mountain , mostly old farm land no real big trees .all he want me for is to help with kitchens and bathrooms .When folks talk (even my 1st cousin) about being hooked up to power grid and having a meter like everyone else and it turning, backward?? I know he knows more about what he has been doing the last 35 yrs but I have never seen a power meter go backward eccept on TV. I cant wait until spring and watch this project start . I hope he has never seen this site, because if what he says works I gotta eat some crow!! Running a complete home well pump and all ,this I gotta see ,I am in alabama, but I told him Im from missouri on this SHOW ME --- I WILL READ WHOLE THREAD TOMMORROW AND WILL PROB GET MOST OF MY QUESTIONS ANSWERED


 No you won't . It was interesting for a while ,,and very informative . But NOW ,,, it's just two little immature BRATS who want to be king of the sandbox. 

Humility is a sign of a Man .


----------



## saveonsolar

i cant say i know what you r referring to slickrick


----------



## ILPlumber

retired rooter said:


> I skipped from first post to last to ask a question??
> 
> I have a cousin who wants me to help him with some plg on a new smaller home he is building in a county with no plg inspectors on my familys old home place.
> 
> I will prob end up there some day Its 125 acres and my part is 12 acres next to his. .
> 
> Anyway he worked for Alabama Power Co until he retired and traveled the world checking out ALT energy sources.To make long story short he his planning a smaller home behind his present home and gonna try to make it an extreem energy saving home . He is talking about wind turbines as small as our regular roof vents that take hot air out of attic and solar pannels, as well as 1 or 2 windmills his property is on top of a mountain , mostly old farm land no real big trees .
> 
> all he want me for is to help with kitchens and bathrooms .When folks talk (even my 1st cousin) about being hooked up to power grid and having a meter like everyone else and it turning, backward??
> 
> I know he knows more about what he has been doing the last 35 yrs but I have never seen a power meter go backward eccept on TV. I cant wait until spring and watch this project start .
> 
> I hope he has never seen this site, because if what he says works I gotta eat some crow!! Running a complete home well pump and all ,this I gotta see ,I am in alabama, but I told him Im from missouri on this SHOW ME ---
> 
> I WILL READ WHOLE THREAD TOMMORROW AND WILL PROB GET MOST OF MY QUESTIONS ANSWERED


Use the enter key. I can't read it when it's a big wad of words....

Back to topic. 

I would say who's court the ball is in but, there are 17 balls flying back and forth:blink:


----------



## saveonsolar

cal, 
the only true post out there..
i couldn't agree with you more


----------



## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

Just thought I would stop by and say thanks for the entertainment. This place has been rather dead. Like, nursing home dead.:thumbup:


----------



## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

saveonsolar said:


> i cant say i know what you r referring to slickRick


 
F ing HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:laughing:


----------



## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

Matt said:


> Use the enter key. I can't read it when it's a big wad of words....
> 
> Back to topic.
> 
> I would say who's court the ball is in but, there are 17 balls flying back and forth:blink:




add two more balls to that equation, been busy, but the gloves are on now. Ding Ding.


----------



## saveonsolar

the sad reality is that i am over the one way argument..just bashing my jobs, my practices and not answering my questions is somewhat boring..


----------



## Cal

I'm going to bed , I've read enough ,,, "The Sun has gone to sleep ,,, and so must I " night all ,, be well


----------



## saveonsolar

i don't waste my time watching TV..
I am outside most of my time,
i surf, hike, hunt, fish etc..
i come home eat, get on the comp some, and go to sleep
don't waste my time in front of TUBE


----------



## SlickRick

saveonsolar said:


> i cant say i know what you r referring to slickrick


It's just a spaghetti western that I enjoy, with 2 characters that I get a kick out of. Not an insult.


----------



## SlickRick

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> F ing HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:laughing:


Hey, he just calls it like he see's it.


----------



## saveonsolar

when installing a solar job DON'T do this.. most houses have the rafters spaced 24".. the panels are 4' wide.. the mounting bases when mounted like this will not hit the rafters on all corners, strong winds will pick the panel up...
:thumbup:


----------



## saveonsolar

thanks for letting me in on it slickrick


----------



## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

saveonsolar said:


> thanks for letting me in on it slickrick



you let him in on it huh? That is just doo doo nasty.:laughing:


----------



## TheMaster

saveonsolar said:


> when installing a solar job DON'T do this.. most houses have the rafters spaced 24".. the panels are 4' wide.. the mounting bases when mounted like this will not hit the rafters on all corners, strong winds will pick the panel up...
> :thumbup:
> View attachment 5210


 Maybe they added support lumber in the attic.


----------



## saveonsolar

also,
when you use these types of bases they slowly dig in on the asphalt shingle..
they create a path for the water to leak into your house..
the panels weigh about 150lbs so with time, will dig in(even more so if they are not secured correctly, into rafters)
another interesting fact is that the clips are not right below the panel.. so they pull the frame of the panel out...







avoid this setup...
use a rack...anodized aluminum,


----------



## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

:blink:


----------



## saveonsolar

maybe master... i doubt it..

the mounting bases are still an issue on the asphalt shingle.. it takes about 5 years to figure that out on your own..


----------



## TheMaster

I personally dont like any of you guys mounts. I would like a lead flashing with stainless 1/2" all thread rod that could attach to the collector just under the edge of it. Like a mini lead roof jack about 6" tall that would extend up the entire rod and be covered by the collector so no rain could be blown in,or fold the lead and seal it with tar. You would attach the threaded rod to framing you build in the attic. Wouldn;t take me long to figure it out...its a major concern of mine...thats why i had thought of the above.....


----------



## Protech

I’m going to respond to all your posts line by line now in *bold* as you requested. I will ignore all new posts you make until I get caught up with post # 266

Post #97

OMG... you are dense....very at that...
Let me give you a little background for you so you may better understand the whole situation....
I have been doing solar here in Hawaii for 14 years...
I have installed projects in Pearl Harbor Pennisula, Mayor Wrights, Halemanu Homes, just to name a few..
Each of these projects have 350 installs and up.
If i were to take you around the islands you head would spin off, but then again i would never get caught with a xx xxxx next to me....
I have services another thousand from other companies... being in the industry 14 years you see a lot of mistakes..
I learn buddy, unlike you, i know that i am not the best at this.
I am always willing to sit and learn.
You on the other hand know it all.. Your cup is full..
You have yet to understand our plumbing method,
so i will leave you there ,
confused.. thats ok.
I DO install, i repeat I DO install Pressure Relief Valves on the roof.
OK so where do i go from here xxxx, *I have yet to see one in a picture. If you could point to one then I could believe you and we could put this one to bed.*
I KNOW...
THE WAY YOU PLUMB YOUR TANKS....
OK The nipples....They do corrode... That is bottom line.. *Lets see some pictures then.*
The broiler drain... What?? You never drain your heaters??? *Again, where and when did I say that?*
Are you serious?? Do you do any maintenance?? *Yes, I believe I’ve stated that already.*
I would guess not, I believe that you just wait for things to fail, and charge your customers..How long did you say that payback was??? *It would depend on the consumer’s power company, the size and type of system we install and of course their consumption habits. Usually in the 2-5 year rang though as far as a shotgun figure goes.*
Add Repairs buddy...*None of my new systems have needed any repairs during their “payback period” so I don’t know what you are talking about there.*
When i said some installer are being cheap... I was adding you in the mix..
It cost a little money to change those nipples to brass..Then you never have a problem..same goes with the broiler drain.. *I’ve tried to debate that with but as of yet you have fought tooth and nail not participate in getting to the bottom of that topic by constantly changing the subject.*
I can tell by the whole install you are cheap.
The mounting, the caulking, etc..
let me guess you use mastic, steel lags...what other substandard products do you use?? *We use stainless steel 3/8” diameter lags 4” long to 8” long depending on the roof type. As far as sealant goes, we use a urethane based flashing sealant that remains flexible when dried. I know of no other way to do it as that is how just about every system that has been installed in the past 40 years has been done. I’ve never seen it done any other way. Said systems have all lasted 20+ years before being re-roofed (due to the roof failing, not the solar penetrations). If you have a different way, I’m all ears.*
You would never pass one of our Utility rebate inspections...*Well, I don’t work there. I work in central Florida and my customers all get their tax credits and I pass my inspections. I could care less about pleasing your utility companies as they have no bearing on my service area.
*Did you get that??? Thats right we have to pass a Utility inspection in order to receive our money. *So do we, and we do.
*They will find anything wrong with the system so that they don't pay us...
But YOU are smarter than them.. You should get a job with them...
I just think that you are very naive. Are you still in the ARMY??? *I never was, I don’t know where you are getting this from…….*
I am i veteran myself...I would never get caught with an ARMY shirt..
I will leave you at that..*Please do as you are rambling on about things that make no sense and no bearing on our conversation.*
I hope that you can learn..
Piperat and Ron, I hope tha you two are not as dense as our Boy,
The only people that i can respect at this point is Ron and Airgap..
By the way...I almost forgot... 
The american water heater comes with a 6 year warranty... The company only expects it to last that long...And hopefully you will buy another one in 10. By changing these parts they will last a lot longer...*I disagree based on my years of experience as a master plumber servicing water heaters of all types. I tried to debate this with you using field data and known laws of chemistry but you have thus far danced around that topic so as to not be pinned down. *They are in the market to move mass amounts of heaters. when you add the amount that they save by installing these substandard parts you see their savings...
Did you get that???still confused???? *I’m more confused than ever reading those last 3 sentences. I can’t make heads or tails of what you are trying to say here.*


----------



## saveonsolar

I'll answer some of HERO's questions to try to get him to answer his mistakes..
on post 96 you stated that you have never had to drain a heater... That is a maintenance that should be done to a heater...
On post 210 you put a picture of an OLD water heater which you have done NO maintenance to, with galvanized nipples coming out and claim that plumb them this way..
easy just look at the forum.. you contradict yourself allll day long heheheh

it took you some time to type that post... good to see you there..
glad that you use that type of sealant, looks like mastic to me

266 huh???


----------



## Protech

In response to the question in post# 155

just out of curiosity, protech how long have you been doing SOLAR? *About 4 years now.*


----------



## service guy

I don't know much about solar, and I won't pretend I do. "saveonsolar" may be a solar genius for all I know, but his debating skills are terrible. Protech is crushing him in that area so far.:laughing:


----------



## saveonsolar

i was very close... i can tell, you will learn. solar is not the same as plumbing.. the harder the head, the harder the lessons

i didn't say my mom was a lawyer did i??
he didn't answer any of the devastation questions..
those mounting brackets are a BIG problem

In due time he will be scratching his head, hopefully its not a multi million dollar house...hahaha
ruin a painting, a rug, ceiling, the list goes on


----------



## Nevada Plumber

Am I the only one who finds it hilarious that so much of this thread is because saveonsolar didn't see the little sarcastic mark that ProTech put in his post about draining water heaters?

Go look at post 96, it was right there.

Nope, never had to drain a water heater in my whole carrier as a plumbing contractor.


----------



## saveonsolar

The roof is the most important part of a solar install...
It's irrelevant how your tank looks, what kind of pump you use, controller, tank, etc.
mess up on the roof, and you will lose that plumbing license and everything else that you have, just by being IGNORANT

It goes beyond that...

Ignorance... hard head...not looking at your own problems..


----------



## SlickRick

Well, keep up the good fight. Good night. Put the cat out for me.


----------



## Ron

I'm out of here tonight.

saveonsolar

I'll do more merging of your post later or one of the other MOD's might do it.


----------



## saveonsolar

I'm over the one way fight..
I have yet to hear about the damage the base cause..aloha


----------



## TheMaster

I like my mini lead roof jack with stainless all thread idea.


----------



## Protech

In response to the question in post# 156

How so?? *Well the collector supply line is plumbed IDENTICLE to my systems complete with pump above the heater and all. The return line is different than mine because mine would use a top connection and a dip tube with baffles at the end to decrease the heated waters velocity upon exiting the tube so as to allow it to stratify under laminar flow to the top of the tank thru the thermocline. If you just shoot into the bottom of the tank with your return line (whether you use a top connection with a dip tube or a side connection, it makes little difference) it will turbulently mix with the cold layer in the bottom of the tank and some will be picked up by the collector supply port from the pumps suction. You have to reduce the velocity. Now, you can get around this by using a throttling device in small systems and slow the flow down to .5-.25 gpm and separate the ports so that the heated water rises due to the low velocity. This does increase re-radiation losses though and becomes progressively more inefficient as you start increasing collector area relative to port size. Anyway, let me get back on topic.*

*My systems also use a motorized check valve to stop the heat collection process from reversing at night (thermosiphoning). The valve also makes the purge water flow thru the collector from the bottom up so that it does not freeze (I realize that this is not a design consideration in Hawaii but I’m including that point for our other readers in the continental USA in temperate climates).*
you stay on top 
where is the check valve?? *There isn’t one in that diagram. That’s wrong.*
i don't see one


----------



## Protech

Response to post # 158

Yea i know all about those systems, SOLARHART, SOLAREDWARDS
so what r u trying to teach me*?? The concept of thermo siphoning and the importance of a check valve to stop that from happening when it’s counter productive. You don’t seem like you are catching on though.*
i am confused now


----------



## saveonsolar

sorry HERO,
The diagram is right....i'm not going to get into that..
I didn't make that drawing...


----------



## saveonsolar

one way insults... you will not learn..
yes master stainless flashing are good.
i have 10 years on you protech,
just accept that
i have seen more systems than you can even imagine..


----------



## Protech

Post # 118

You have some physics down, hot water rises... to the top of the tank...when you use the dip tubes, all of your connections are at the top...without a check valve you would loose your hot water... we plumb our tanks with the return at the very bottom......cold above the hot...

*Flip……*

Post # 161

Sorry wrong diagram... the pump is BELOW the HOT..
Try again.

*Flop……*

Post # 168

You showed a diagram with the pump at the very bottom of the heater..
The system will back feed at night with out s check valve in that case..
we have our return line coming in at the bottom, like on the diagram that i posted..
if you look at my diagram, there is NO check valve.. Do you get it???


----------



## Tankless

Can we talk tankless yet? I've had a ****ty day and my internet muscles are twitching


----------



## Protech

Post # 171

HOw long>??
Classes?? *FSEC, solar thermal. Green plumbers solar water heating. My suppliers <not posting their name on the internet due to competition> training program *


----------



## Phat Cat

Hey guys, why not take it to chat in 'real time?'


----------



## TheMaster

IMO you both do it wrong.....I'd try to locate the collector on the ground and the tank in the attic so it would circulate itself.:whistling2:
I'm just poking fun but I would just follow the directions that came with a good quality unit.....would I be ok with that? I mean they do make them so it seems they would know the best setup. maybe not tho...people who make wax seals say put it on the toilet...I have never put a wax ring on the toilet before i set it....always on the flange. Sorry to druft but just showing the directions are not always the best way.


----------



## Protech

Post # 173

It's funny we went off on this thermosiphon bs and avoided some very intersting points*..I think it’s going to be funny how after I finish answering these question you will still refuse to answer mine.
*You never services your solar systems.. *Yes, I do. And again I have no idea where you are getting this idea.
*you never drain them. *Yes, I do.* *I guess you are so good you are clairvoyant and can what I do on a day to day basis!?!*
you use galvanized parts, *The dielectric nipples that are supplied and installed by the manufacturer are left in. SO yes, you are right. Unfortunately, due to your belligerence in avoiding this aspect of the debate I have so far been able to pin you down on that subject. Hopefully when I’m done responding to all you questions as you requested you will man up and answer your to your actions in this matter.
*master plumber.. *That’s 3rd generation licensed master plumber and solar contractor to you sir.
*really


----------



## Protech

Post # 174

Like i aid, this is straight from a solar class that i took..
you have yet to prove any of your schooling or experience..
you know nothing.. *I have already answered your question on this.*


----------



## Protech

Post # 175

So do you use mastic?? *We use a urethane based flashing sealant around our flashings and mounts.
*how do you seal your penetrations??*See above.*
do you hit rafters?? *Yes. In the event that the mounts will not line up with the rafters (top truss chord) which is rare, we install strong backs and truss spacers to span across trusses. Longer lags are used to anchor to the strong backs.*
really


----------



## saveonsolar

my oooohhh my
ignorance is still upon us..
does someone feel that mosquito??
so bases straight on asphalt shingle???
thats right.. the biggest problem yet..
don't worry about my tanks...
let get to the BEEF

4 years doing solar.... i remember those days,
wow how much i have learned since then...


----------



## Protech

Post # 176

i noticed that you use side clips instead of rack.. *Actually, we do use a rack when mounting more than one collector.
*how does that affect the asphalt shingle?? *They compress.*
doesn't the weight of the panel dig into the roof tile?? *Well, a roof tile is not the same thing as a shingle Mr. super solar pro, but in the case of asphalt shingles, yes they do compress some though that does not cause leaks when sealed properly.
*really??
I also notices that that clips that are mounted on the side of the panel pull the side of the panels.. it does, how many backing have you lost?? *Zero. I have also serviced many old systems (like more than 20 years old) from the same manufacturer with the same clip system and they have not pulled apart. That’s even after a direct hit from hurricane charley. I have seen some other brands (like your beloved SunEarth) pull apart though. Never had any problems with AET collectors. Period.*


----------



## TheMaster

Will those panels mount onto unistrut channel?


----------



## Redwood

Come on Save On Solar...

Ya gotta stop doing the Rope A Dope and take a couple of swings...:whistling2:

All these jabs from Protech are wearing you down and the score card isn't looking good...:no:

If this fight ends up with a judges decision you will lose....:whistling2:

You need a Knock out!:yes:





:thumbup:


----------



## Protech

Post # 177

*Since you didn’t provide any sort of reference as to which picture you are talking about it makes it pretty difficult to respond. I’m going to assume that you are talking about the tilt mount install with the soft copper coming off of the headers that loops around under the collector before making the roof penetrations underneath the collector.*

Another interesting picture...You don't use pipe support.... doesn't the pipe bounce and move. *Why would 2’ of copper “bounce” in a properly designed plumbing system…….oh wait, that’s right……you aren’t even a plumber so you wouldn’t know the answer to that question…..never mind………moving on*. that causes premature failure on the headers on the panels.. *Nope. Proof?
*you might wanna consider putting pitch cups, or securing you pipe no more than 2 feet from panel..I'm just saying.. *If that is the picture you are talking about there is only about 2’ of soft copper coming off of the headers. Also, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a copper joint or fitting leak from blowing in the wind. The installation is well within our plumbing and building codes.*


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## saveonsolar

ohhh OK so now we are going...
yes it does leak..
then again my word against yours..
Tile i hope you don't use them...i wouldn't know how.

post 191 shows how backings are pulled out...
post 186 shows your pipping without support
post 187 shows a leaky tank the way you plumb it.
post 188 well that is your style:thumbup:

Yes master,
panels will mount onto u-strut..
they have flush clips and u-strut nuts.
that is the only way to do it.....:thumbup:


----------



## Protech

Post #182

hehehe sorry guys...i didn't post the pics...
i wanted to see where i saved them in my computer..pictures/ugly jobs..hehehe
this is what i show customers , what we will not do That’s a shame. *That’s a beautiful install. If you don’t mind me asking, what exactly would you have done differently and why?*
ok...let me try that again











OK so my question...
did you hit the rafters?? *Yes
*I don't think so.. you see the holes are @ 52" center to center on the mounting bases...
are the beams in florida not spaced @ 2" center to center??? *They can be. Some times they are spaced shorter though.*
I'm confused??

So did you just hit one rafter???none??? *We hit the top cords on every install. That install is about 2 years old so I can’t remember how we did that one. However, the homeowner is a very loyal client of mine and he only lives about a mile from me. If it’s really eating at you I could drop back by and shoot some pics of the attic for you.*
I guess hurricanes or high winds not a factor in Florida.. *All of our installs are inspected by a building official and have to have engineered drawings submitted with the permit application. All installs must be rated for 115mph winds. If we didn’t install our systems according to the manufacturer’s specifications and the engineer’s drawings we would not pass our inspections. Our customers would not be able to get their state and federal incentives as you must submit the closed building permit # with your rebate application. You should know that though being a solar contractor so I’m not sure why you would even ask…..
*OK


----------



## saveonsolar

4 years of service is not much time.... maybe 1000 systems??
not much..
Hawaii, we have thousands of systems, i mean thousands..
you've only changed a few pumps...
that alone shows your experience.. very limited..
in time you will be more open minded(hopefully)
and see that there are a lot of ways of doing solar


----------



## Protech

Post # 183

What r u serious??
TPR vented up??? *No, it drains downward. You are looking at the cold inlet pipe behind the T/P drain and mistaking it for the T/p drain. The T/P drain is in front of it. Look closer.*
so this pipe always has water.. *Nope. Look closer.*


----------



## saveonsolar

So why do you question our jobs???
the tanks are fine... not a problem..

my eyes must be playing tricks on me... i see a pipe going up


----------



## Protech

post # 184

You backing is getting pulled out.... this happens because the clips are pulling at the sides, notice that the clips are not right below, but at an angle.... not good i will post another picture of what it looks like. *You don't have a clue what you are talking about. Those clips come from the factory at that angle and are being installed exactly to the manufacturers specs.* *I find it funny how you keep saying I'm the one who is arrogant and is not willing to learn how other people do things, yt that is more or less what you have done this whole thread. I think you are just projecting what's going on in your own subconscious mind* :whistling2:












*I'll attach a picture of the mount so you can see it up close....*


----------



## saveonsolar

i know thos clips, we no longer use that panel here....the screw underneath pulls tight.
in due time my friend..
By the way do you eat meat??

Those are AET panels

is your mom still holding your hand??
sounds like a lawyer....:thumbup:


----------



## Protech

Post # 185

I'm not sure on this one..but are you suppose to soldier half a copper fitting at a time?? *There is no reason you can’t other than time-wise it’s inefficient. If I remember correctly on that one I had workers doing other things and I was getting impatient so I decided to solder the caps and reducer coupling to the headers to get something done while they were doing the mounts. In any event…….did you have some kind of point here?*
i thought that was a no go...*Really? And why is that?*
i'm just saying...


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## Protech

Post # 186

looks great, if you are designing a water slide...all soft??? *No, not all soft. We used hard on the tank and on the valve tree on the return side of the loop. Soft coming off of the headers and thru the attic. Why? You telling me you run hard everywhere? Even in the attic line set? Why?
*It would have looked a lot better with 2 90's *Well I typically do a walk thru with my crew and the homeowner and we all put our heads together on how we are doing to run things. Many aspects of piping are purely subjective. What you think looks good may look like crap to the next guy. I usually give my homeowners several options on how to do something and let them choose (it is there house after all). That guy (Mr. Grim) liked the idea of loops rather than 90s and that’s what he got. There is nothing technically wrong with those loops (and wouldn’t you know it they passed inspection too. Golly who’d a thunk it?) so it’s simply a matter of esthetics. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the beholder is the guy writing us the check.*
then again who's looking,
and what about support for the pipe??
i know, it doesn't need it right...i guess all that stress is ok on the headers *I don’t know what stress you speak of. Could you elaborate with some stress calculations (it’s rhetorical, I know you can’t and won’t)*


----------



## Protech

Post # 187










OK here is the picture of as leaky tank..
This contractor went beyond our good friend. *How so? Could you elaborate please?*
He used brass instead of a copper fitting to minimize the problem.
But as you may see, it leaked..that's right...the connection from the tank was rusted all the way.... sorry dear home owner that is going to be $1500 *I really don’t see what that has to do with the galvanized nipple as the nipple looks just fine (at least on the outside). I don’t see a leaking nipple, I see a leaking tank. Seeing as how you didn’t do any sort of autopsy on the tank we have no idea what was actually leaking and what the likely cause was. But hey, you did waste some of Nathan’s bandwidth posting that useless picture so you get an “A” for effort.*
I guess you are going to have to wait a couple of more years for your return on investment..You get the picture???? *No, not really.*


----------



## Protech

Post # 188

I love this picture...WHO"S watching???hehehe nobody i guess
It looks like our good friends job...hehehehe *I don’t see how. It doesn’t resemble any of my new installs that I’ve posted at all. Let my count the ways they are not similar.*
*1. That is a dual panel rack mount system and I’ve only posted single panel direct mount systems.*

*2. I don’t and haven’t posted any installs where I ran my loop piping on long runs across the top of the roof deck.*


*3. I use coolly cap style flashings for my roof penetrations instead of….well…..whatever that is….*

*4. And most of all…….My hired help does not resembles Jed Clampet*
I would not want this on my roof












*So let me turn this around on you. What IS similar about them* :whistling2:


----------



## Protech

Post # 189

I like this job....It shows our style....4 different contractors said it could't be done....as you can see one of our guys is installing the PR valve on the top right corner *I don’t know about a relief valve. I see a foot and not much else. Maybe you could point said valve out for me*...I love pictures...its like 1000 words....beat *I would also ask about the piping arrangement but I know that you lack the linguistic ability to answer in a manor that would move the conversation forward so I'll just pass.*


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## Protech

Post # 191








This is what happens when you install those cheap side clip, they pull out the side of the panel, and make the backing fall out, not a good installation...
Don't let you installer do this..

*I don’t know what the heck you’re talking about. I think I see the collector backing drooping out of the bottom but you don’t list what brand it is nor how old. I’ve seen some really cheaply built collectors do that that were very old (30+ years old). They were not SRCC certified and looked homemade. I’ve also seen some SunEarth brand collectors do that as well. As far as the AET collectors go, I’ve never seen one do that even when 20 years old.*


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## Protech

Post # 192

[/ATTACH]
sorry i didn't post the picture of the tank and the galvanized nipples...
make sure that you make them change that out..
Maximized your investment...Don't let the installer short change YOU..
aloha



*I already responded to this one is post # 241. You declined to discuss it. Hopefully when I get done responding to all this you can man up and do so.*


----------



## Protech

Post #193

OK, there are some more picture.....please post more pictures so that i may tear into them..
I am looking for a picture of the damage that the flush clip causes on the asphalt shingle..
They dig in....By the way, Mastic 208 or any sealant like that is not good(silicone is bad too) *I don’t know what “mastic 208” is and I don’t use silicone. I’ve already explained that I use a urethane based flashing sealant.*
avoid it....

*I notice you keep talking about what you don’t do, well what DO you do since you claim to be Mr. super duper solar master?*


----------



## Protech

Post #196

hehe i love the post...
I'm not worried about supplies...I charge enough to use on my jobs, and we do have well supplied trucks...
I would be careful about talking madness. your solar job is not the best..*I know that I’ve said this already a few times but, WHAT THE H*** ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. And perhaps more importantly, WHO are you talking too?!?! Me? The master? Airgap? You should address people when you are to them. We don’t know who you are responding too (and it doesn’t help that ½ of your posts are totally incoherent)*


----------



## Protech

AET. Why? Because there are 25+ year old AET collectors all over town that still work just fine. They are the only company that has been making panels that long that still have systems that old. The proof is in the pudding. 



TheMaster said:


> Whats the best brand flat panel collector and why?


----------



## Protech

Post #215

what i love more than anything is how you post pictures and say that this is the way i do it....stop being ignorant....please hero...
do not be ignorant...it irks me....
Ok you can clearly see that the fitting coming out of the tank is a galvanized nipple *Again, which post are you talking about. We have several tank pictures up at this point*.....are my eyes playing tricks on me....
i don't connect copper to steel like YOU do.. *I think I’ve pretty well beaten that horse to death proving I do not. However, you have yet to show me how connecting brass to steel (your installs) without some means of keeping the waterway open is NOT going to corrode and start clogging.
*I go Brass.... thats right let me repeat my self since you have a hard head BRASS>. *Yeah, I get that. And your doing it wrong that way.
*ok anyways answer some of my questions..
so why do you use those bases??? *Because that’s what the engineer specs and if I didn’t I wouldn’t pass my wind rating requirements. Again, If I’m so wrong (which I’m not) the how do you do it big boy?*
don't they dig into the roof??? *To some extent, but ALL of the systems around here are done that way (including the ones 40 years old) and they work just fine. I guess every solar contractor and plumber in central Florida is doing it wrong huh?
*what about rafters??? *What about em?*
don't you hit them??? *Yes, or a strong back brace.*
what kind of bolts?? *3/8” stainless steel lags 4-8” long depending on the roof type.
*This is a solar roof right??? *What do you mean by that? *


----------



## Protech

Post #217

By the way... that happens to you... you fail to do maintenance..
Nope, never had to drain a water heater in my whole carrier as a plumbing contractor. That your straight quote...* If you go back and read post #96 you will see that I was being sarcastic. Guess you didn’t catch that.*

if you do maintenance you would not have electrolysis going on up there..
bottom line *Um, what does my doing maintenance have to do with the process of electrolysis?
*
ps nice to have you hereheheheh

I love that picture...
ok here is a scenario
a mechanic pull out a valve on a car and says look at all this sludge
it's due to blah blah blah blah.
never mind changing the oil just change the engine..
maintenance is the key word here *Dude, I guess you missed the fact that I’m a plumbing **service contractor. Service is 95% of what I do.
*
I do have another question..
do you put your heaters on a timer??? *No. What would make you think I did?*
or just leave them on alll the time??? *No, I don’t do that either. My systems are differential controlled just like almost every other modern solar domestic water heating system is. Ya’know, since you are this super awesome solar contractor that does all this service I would have thought you would have seen all those differential controllers shown in all those photos but maybe you were just testing me…..yeah…..that’s what it is…….Cuz you know…….if I ever talked to someone who claimed to do solar and they couldn’t spot a differential controller then I would have to assume that they were fulla sh!t on their credentials. Not that I’m accusing you of anything :whistling2:
*


----------



## Protech

see bold



saveonsolar said:


> hey by the way i was on CNN last night and read this exact claim
> 
> Think of 2 ice skaters that circle each other and then lock hands. After they lock hands and pull each other together the rate at which they spin accelerates.
> where did you get that protech?? *Astronomy book. I don't remember which one or when. Did you have somewhere you were going with this? *


----------



## saveonsolar

ALRIGHTY...:thumbup:
GOOD you answered all the questions.
I love all the post....
OK Protech, when we first started our discussion you answered most of my questions being sarcastic, with little smirks and so on..
like i said before.. your cup is full.
you can't and refuse to understand our systems, and for this i feel sorry for you..
You then post pictures and drawing that don't resemble our systems..
Critic, about what we have and don't have.
You don't know how we set our systems..
For one thing we have our systems on timers...we shut the power off..
after 5-6 solar stops working....people come home and start using hot water..
the tank is fed with cold water @ the bottom of the heater...
anyways the cold water can't go up.....remember.. my hot(return) is at the very bottom....cold at the top... no fittings but the hot to the house and cold feed at top...
anyways why am i telling you all this...
you already know..
did you get that wise guy???
OK as far as the problems, leaky tank( the nipple leaked at the outside) i've never had to perform an autopsy to prove anything before...i just repair stuff. why did it leak??? nipple outside..maybe defective tank. don't care..
The broken panel... like i said before. i have seen it a lot of times... i just took one picture.. i have seen aet fail too, but like i said before.. it comes with experience...
the picture of the job hahahahaha,
that is your style...i don't plumb my side connects that way. and the help... thats funny, i thought it looked like you.....hahahaha
Now the 6 msc 4x8.... i really think that you lack the ability to comprehend the plumbing...you will tell me how it doesn't work and so on..
I have a great idea... i realize that you use AET products..do me a favor, look at the brochure...did you notice that our pictures are used in their catalogs??
they use our systems as case studies...just ask them.. my question is this..
why don't they use yours??? you are in the same state... why do they use a contractor all the way in Hawaii???
what is wrong with your systems??
why not use MR Florida Solar??
anyways, i must admit you are great at debates. but like i said before it gets in the way..
do me a favor drink some out of the cup.. when you are ready i can show you some incredible solar jobs...and teach you a thing or two..
Aloha
Ivan


----------



## Protech

See bold.



saveonsolar said:


> I'll answer some of HERO's questions to try to get him to answer his mistakes..
> on post 96 you stated that you have never had to drain a heater *Again, I was being sarcastic. You do know what sarcasm is right? do they not have sarcasm is Hawaii? Of course I've had to drain water heaters. When we replace them what do you think I do? Throw a 400-1000lb heater over my shoulder and walk out with it spewing water!?!?*... That is a maintenance that should be done to a heater...
> On post 210 you put a picture of an OLD water heater which you have done NO maintenance to,*Right...*. with galvanized nipples coming out and claim that plumb them this way..*Right....*
> easy just look at the forum..*OK, you just lost me....again......* you contradict yourself allll day long heheheh *Funny, you seem to be the only one who thinks that.*
> 
> it took you some time to type that post... good to see you there..
> glad that you use that type of sealant, looks like mastic to me
> 
> 266 huh???


----------



## saveonsolar

the fact that you are being sarcastic is on you..i'm only quoting you...
you posted a picture on post 210..
it has galvanized nipples coming out of it.. you say that we plumb it like that... we don't, you do..
The anode rod.. you know what it does right??
That tank that you posted had no anode rod.. with an anode in the tank, corrosion in the pipes would not have been that bad..
i know what the parts are, i know that you use a goldline controller, and sorry to inform you but some contractors DO use timers....
wasn't sure if you had installed inside for convenience


----------



## Protech

Actually, there is nothing wrong with that setup TM. You want to make sure that you bring your solar loop up without any dips that create heat traps. The problem with that setup is usually finding a place to put the 80-120 gallon tank in the attic. That place also needs a load bearing wall that can accept an additional 1000-1500lbs of weight. You still need some automation. You have to wire a motorized check valve (2 would be even safer) into the solar loop to a snap switch in the tank set at 140F. If you don't have a means of stopping circulation that tank will over heat when consumption is low/nonexistent and you have plenty of sun. If that happens, you will trip the high limit on the electric back heater and then it won't work when you need it to a few times a year. Then you get a customer callback. Even worse, the system will still keep circulating even when the electric high limit trips. It will just keep going until the T/P starts to go off. The the T/P goes bad prematurely or someone gets scalded with 200F water.

Remember, all passive systems must has a means of heat regulation.



TheMaster said:


> IMO you both do it wrong.....I'd try to locate the collector on the ground and the tank in the attic so it would circulate itself.:whistling2:
> I'm just poking fun but I would just follow the directions that came with a good quality unit.....would I be ok with that? I mean they do make them so it seems they would know the best setup. maybe not tho...people who make wax seals say put it on the toilet...I have never put a wax ring on the toilet before i set it....always on the flange. Sorry to druft but just showing the directions are not always the best way.


----------



## Protech

The pictures in post # 210 are of a brass fitting threaded into a steel fitting. The fitting that I'm holding in my hand is made of brass and it full of galvanic cell corrosion just as your brass fittings will be. What's not to understand?



saveonsolar said:


> the fact that you are being sarcastic is on you..i'm only quoting you...
> you posted a picture on post 210..
> it has galvanized nipples coming out of it.. you say that we plumb it like that... we don't, you do..
> The anode rod.. you know what it does right??
> That tank that you posted had no anode rod.. with an anode in the tank, corrosion in the pipes would not have been that bad..
> i know what the parts are, i know that you use a goldline controller, and sorry to inform you but some contractors DO use timers....
> wasn't sure if you had installed inside for convenience


----------



## Redwood

Gawd this one sided debate bores me....:whistling2:


----------



## Protech

What part of this don't you get?

I'm going to bed.



saveonsolar said:


> the fact that you are being sarcastic is on you..i'm only quoting you...
> you posted a picture on post 210..
> it has galvanized nipples coming out of it.. you say that we plumb it like that... we don't, you do..
> The anode rod.. you know what it does right??
> That tank that you posted had no anode rod.. with an anode in the tank, corrosion in the pipes would not have been that bad..
> i know what the parts are, i know that you use a goldline controller, and sorry to inform you but some contractors DO use timers....
> wasn't sure if you had installed inside for convenience


----------



## saveonsolar

wow, dense...i can show the same on a galvanized...


----------



## saveonsolar

just to make it clear... it comes out with galvanized nipple, the into a 90, then that fitting that you have...old tank, no anode rod remaining..
looks more like yours than mine.. i use a union.. not a brass bushing..
:thumbup:


----------



## Protech

See bold.



saveonsolar said:


> ALRIGHTY...:thumbup:
> GOOD you answered all the questions.
> I love all the post....
> OK Protech, when we first started our discussion you answered most of my questions being sarcastic, with little smirks and so on..
> like i said before.. your cup is full.
> you can't and refuse to understand our systems, and for this i feel sorry for you..
> You then post pictures and drawing that don't resemble our systems..
> Critic, about what we have and don't have.
> You don't know how we set our systems..
> For one thing we have our systems on timers...we shut the power off..
> after 5-6 solar stops working....people come home and start using hot water..*BWAHAHAHAHA! We stopped using timer controlled systems 40 years ago. That's funny right there. You've been saying I"M the one who behind the times :laughing:*
> 
> *So what happens when the power goes out for a few hours and the timer is now lagging the solar window by 4 hours? Are you telling me rain or shine that pump kicks on all day wasting energy and shortening it's lifespan?*
> the tank is fed with cold water @ the bottom of the heater...
> anyways the cold water can't go up.....remember.. my hot(return) is at the very bottom....cold at the top... no fittings but the hot to the house and cold feed at top...
> anyways why am i telling you all this...
> you already know..*Yep, that pretty much sums it up.* *Thanks for sharing though.*
> did you get that wise guy???
> OK as far as the problems, leaky tank( the nipple leaked at the outside) i've never had to perform an autopsy to prove anything before...i just repair stuff. why did it leak??? nipple outside..maybe defective tank. don't care..
> The broken panel... like i said before. i have seen it a lot of times... i just took one picture.. i have seen aet fail too, but like i said before.. it comes with experience...
> the picture of the job hahahahaha,
> that is your style...i don't plumb my side connects that way. and the help... thats funny, i thought it looked like you.....hahahaha
> Now the 6 msc 4x8.... i really think that you lack the ability to comprehend the plumbing...you will tell me how it doesn't work and so on..
> I have a great idea... i realize that you use AET products..do me a favor, look at the brochure...did you notice that our pictures are used in their catalogs??
> they use our systems as case studies...just ask them.. my question is this..*Ya, I see your picture on page 3. Go back to page 2 though and you will notice they are all installed my way.* *http://www.aetsolar.com/PDFs/MSC_Collector_Brochure.pdf*
> *Notice the universal mount kit shown in the 1st of the 3 pictures in the lower right hand corner of page 2. Yep I guess I've been doing it all wrong.*
> why don't they use yours??? you are in the same state... why do they use a contractor all the way in Hawaii???
> what is wrong with your systems??
> why not use MR Florida Solar??
> anyways, i must admit you are great at debates. but like i said before it gets in the way..*Yeah, logic tends to do that with you.*
> do me a favor drink some out of the cup.. when you are ready i can show you some incredible solar jobs...and teach you a thing or two.. *I'm all ears.....I just have to whip my eyes about the timer thing though. That was rich.*
> Aloha
> Ivan


----------



## Protech

Hey looky what else I found on AET's site. 

http://www.aetsolar.com/literature/FSEC_S9241.pdf

Here's the FSEC cerification for the collector. Why look at that it matches my system exactly. Check valve? yep. Differential controller? yep. Air vent valve? yep. Hey, looky there, they show top connection with dip tubes and the pump mounted above the tank.......dang where have we seen this before.....oh that's right in all of my new installs.

Hey why don't they have An FSEC certification for anything that even remotely resembles one of you designs? Hmmmmmmm, kinda makes ya wonder :whistling2:

I'm out!


----------



## saveonsolar

hehehe:thumbup:
timer, like it was a hidden thing...right..
40 years???? really where??
like i have posted before... you are arrogant
it's a fact..
nice to see your pics too..
any case studies?/
Hollly Sh111t
you are clueless... who said that the controller is on a timer...
ohhh myyyy
the 220-30 amp HERO,
The back-up

:thumbup:

the diagram which i posted is one of the tank set-up for the utility rebate...
Hawaii.. Why would i use a Florida setup

Ohhh None of your pics....
buuuu buuuuu bbuuuuu
what about case studies??
ohh thats right, no


----------



## futz

Protech said:


> By the way... that happens to you... you fail to do maintenance..
> Nope, never had to drain a water heater in my whole carrier as a plumbing contractor. That your straight quote...* If you go back and read post #96 you will see that I was being sarcastic. Guess you didn’t catch that.*





saveonsolar said:


> I love all the post....
> OK Protech, when we first started our discussion you answered most of my questions being sarcastic, with little smirks and so on..
> like i said before.. your cup is full.


Ok, I'm going to teach both you solar experts some things about posting here that will make your posts much clearer both to each other and to others trying to read them.

*Please use the quote system!* When replying to a message you want to quote, click on Quote. Then if the entire quote isn't necessary to your reply, delete whatever isn't necessary (like pics or text that isn't relevant to your reply). It's often not necessary to quote the entire post you're replying to - just eats up space unnecessarily. Prune it down where possible, as long as it's still clear what you're replying to.

For multiple point answers you can type [ quote] (leave out the space) at the start of each quoted section. Type [ /quote] (leave out the space) at the end. Then drop down *one* line (you don't need to leave an extra line between quote and reply) and start your reply.

Also for multiple point answers, instead of deleting parts of the original quote (when you click on Quote), just break the sections up by moving your cursor to the start of each section and hitting ENTER a couple times. Then add the required [ quote][ /quote] tags as required and your replies.

To copy a piece of the quotee's text, highlight it with your mouse and hit CTRL-C (hold down the CTRL key and hit C). That stores what you highlighted in the clipboard. Place your cursor where you want to paste the clipboarded text (right after


> ) and hit CTRL-V. You can copy and paste the [ quote][ /quote]'s too - they're just text as well. The keys you hit for copy and paste may be different on a Mac.
> 
> If you want to quote a particular person, use
> 
> 
> person's_name said:
> 
> 
> 
> at the start.
> 
> Be sure to preview your posts before submitting. Multiple quotes can screw up badly if you make a typo.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's an example. I'm going to quote myself multiple times:
> 
> 
> 
> futz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, I'm going to teach both you solar experts some things about posting here that will make your posts much clearer both to each other and to others trying to read them.
> 
> 
> 
> There's the first one.
> 
> 
> 
> futz said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to quote a particular person, use [ quote=person's_name] at the start.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Second one.
> 
> 
> 
> futz said:
> 
> 
> 
> To copy a piece of the quotee's text, highlight it with your mouse and hit CTRL-C (hold down the CTRL key and hit C).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Third one.
> 
> Have fun with that.  Practice with it a bit and you'll soon get the hang.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## Protech

see bold



saveonsolar said:


> hehehe:thumbup:
> timer, like it was a hidden thing...right..
> 40 years???? really where?? *Bartow and Lakeland*.
> like i have posted before... you are arrogant
> it's a fact..
> nice to see your pics too..
> any case studies?/
> Hollly Sh111t
> you are clueless... who said that the controller is on a timer...*It sounded like you did. If you meant to say that the electric backup heating element was on a timer than I would like to know how your customers get hot water on days with cloudy weather in the middle of the day. Oops, sorry mom. you can't wash dishes until 5pm when your timer kicks the backup system on. What's the point of having an electrical back system if it's turned off 1/2 the time?*
> ohhh myyyy
> the 220-30 amp HERO,
> The back-up
> 
> :thumbup:
> 
> the diagram which i posted is one of the tank set-up for the utility rebate...
> Hawaii.. Why would i use a Florida setup
> 
> Ohhh None of your pics....
> buuuu buuuuu bbuuuuu
> what about case studies??*What are you babbling about?*
> ohh thats right, no


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## Protech

Maybe a standard galvanized nipple. However,we were talking about factory dielectric fittings with the dip tubes installed inside (going thru) the dielectric nipples with a brass FIP adapter threaded onto the dielectric nipple.

I double dog dare you to show me a picture of clogged port when installed like that. Go ahead show me.



saveonsolar said:


> wow, dense...i can show the same on a galvanized...


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## saveonsolar

Ok Jack...
I'm not going to call u HERO anymore because you just don't deserve the name... I'll just refer to you as 
ok.. first of all.. english is my second language....
i would love to discuss this in spanish..
I know you are in Florida... so you must know spanish..
case studies... 
well you see that's is when they use a system that you have installed, and use it as an example.. to sell more..
why not you, well here in hawaii AET is not a popular brand.. that is because some plumbers back in the day installed a lot of systems incorrectly installed, they all failed and unfortunately AET was the supplier... they just don't plumbers any more..
I will not get into any further arguments,debates 
I am a PROVEN solar contractor on these islands...
so much so that most of my business come from existing customers...
4 years experience.... ohhh myy
anyways... i have my kids today, can't really get into a single sided discussion with a 
aloha
Ivan


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## Miguel

saveonsolar said:


> Ok Jack...
> I'm not going to call u HERO anymore because you just don't deserve the name... I'll just refer to you as Jack..
> ok.. first of all.. english is my second language....
> i would love to discuss this in spanish..
> etc


Oh man! Don't say you're Mexican! They hate Mexicans here! 

Okay, so now wait... I didn't get a programme... what round is this? Is this the semi-finals or are we still in qualifying?


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## Protech

I think he said he was Colombian.


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## saveonsolar

Colombian, mexican, cuban it doesn't matter, we are taking over the country anyways...:thumbup:


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## Ron

saveonsolar

Let me make it clear to you the rules on this site, follow the rules as outlined, let this be your finale warning.

*Forum Posting Rules:*

The following is a list of basic guidelines about what is and is not allowed while posting on our site. These rules are in addition to what is listed in our Terms Of Service , and Advertising Rules. Please read through all of these sections before using our site and contact us if you have questions..

*Users shall treat each other with respect at all times on plumbingzone.com. Name calling, personal attacks, or other inappropriate behavior will not be allowed and may cause you account to be banned.*


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## Miguel

saveonsolar said:


> Colombian, mexican, cuban it doesn't matter, we are taking over the country anyways...:thumbup:


Yea man, what Ron said. Seriously.
We can have a good time without any discourtesy.

cheers


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## saveonsolar

cheers[/quote]

heh

I am colombian....
let me let you in on a secret... every time i am speaking SPANISH with one of my friends or family, people in the US say... you guys are speaking MEXICAN...
The average american doesn't know the difference between any of us...
Offending who???? myself???/
:laughing:
i put the wrong quote....
i guess you think that is offensive ... what i wrote..


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## SlickRick

saveonsolar said:


> Colombian, mexican, cuban it doesn't matter, we are taking over the country anyways...:thumbup:


I know that's right.


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## Miguel

saveonsolar said:


> cheers
> heh
> 
> I am colombian....
> let me let you in on a secret... every time i am speaking SPANISH with one of my friends or family, people in the US say... you guys are speaking MEXICAN...
> The average american doesn't know the difference between any of us...
> Offending who???? myself???/
> :laughing:
> i put the wrong quote....
> i guess you think that is offensive ... what i wrote..


Not offensive at all. Sorry for calling you Mexican.

For me? I speak Ojibwe better than I do Spanish, so to me it matters not. As far as I'm concerned, we all emerged from Africa and spread ourselves over the globe.



slickrick said:


> I know that's right.


(maniacal laughter) bwah-hah-ha-hah! 

Okay, intermission almost over? :whistling2:


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## Protech

I'd love to continue but I think he's been shot down on every category. If there is something I missed feel free to bring it up and I'll e'splain it as best I can.


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## saveonsolar

I see Jack still thinks he's got it... thats ok...Rock on Jack:thumbup:


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## Ron

Were done with this thread, thanks for coming, Start a new if you need to. 351 post on one thread is too many.

Thread Closed.


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