# Mystery toilet tank leak



## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

I have a mystery leak that I'm hoping someone can solve. I repaired a 1.6 gallon flush Kohler (about 10-12 years old) water closet that the customer said was losing water from the tank. There was no water on the floor. Assuming it was the flapper I replaced it with a Korky. I also replaced the filler valve with a Fluidmaster. The customer called me back and said the tank was still losing water. He said that he turned off the stop and the tank would empty in two hours.

I went back and poured blue food color into the tank. After 10 minutes, no color came into the bowl. However, I removed the tank and stripped everything out down to the porcelain. I then replaced everything, and I mean everything including the handle, using Kohler parts, a Fluidmaster, and a new Korky. I was certain that I had solved the problem. But the customer called me an hour after I had left and said it was still losing water.

I returned and glued a new seat on the flush valve and installed another new Korky. I checked on it periodically for 30 minutes and the water level did not change. Again, I was certain that I had solved the problem. But to be sure, I marked the water level on the flush valve post, turned off the stop, and asked the customer to check it over night. He texted me pictures a few hours later revealing that the tank was half empty.

I'm a 65 year old journeyman plumber and have never come across this type of problem and I've repaired a lot of toilets. If water is not leaking on the floor, and I'm positive that it is not, there is only one other way water can leave the tank and that's through the flush valve. The flapper is seating properly. Everything is new. It is not logical that the tank could be losing water. What could possibly be the answer to this enigma?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Hi Cimafish,
Before we get into this weird toilet do me a favor and just go here and give a little introduction telling us a bit about yourself...

Maybe kind of where you hail from what type of plumbing you do...

We don't want to know your bank account number or your youngest daughter's address but if you want to share that info its okay with us ...:laughing:

Is the toilet a one piece?


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

What about siphonage? Or bak flow through the fluidmaster? I know exstreamly unlikely. But thats all i got


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

Take the tank back off and fill it in the kitchen sink and just watch it. Sadly with all the parts and time u have put im to it you could have replaced it


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Hi Cimafish, Before we get into this weird toilet do me a favor and just go here and give a little introduction telling us a bit about yourself... Maybe kind of where you hail from what type of plumbing you do... We don't want to know your bank account number or your youngest daughter's address but if you want to share that info its okay with us ...:laughing: Is the toilet a one piece?


hey red how do i go and see if they have an intro?


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

Thanks for responding. I just filled out my profile a few minutes ago. No, it is a two-piece Kohler. I've worked on so many of them I've lost count. Never came across one that I couldn't repair.


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## budders (May 19, 2013)

Also red he said he took the tank off so its a 2 piece . srry not to often i can get a jab in on u


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

Thanks budders. I cutoff the stop, so it wouldn't be able to siphon through the Fluidmaster. It's getting close to Halloween...


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

Yep, budders, could have replaced it, but who would have thought it couldn't be repaired? I mean, numerous times it is a flapper issue or re-adjust the float.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

budders said:


> Also red he said he took the tank off so its a 2 piece . srry not to often i can get a jab in on u


I saw that and I also saw this, "I then replaced everything, and I mean everything including the handle, *using Kohler parts, a Fluidmaster, and a new Korky.*

So a little clarification doesn't hurt...:laughing:

Budders When I see one post and it is in a thread you know the intro is missing... Easy Math!

Cimafish, The intro is a separate thing from the profile... Just quick easy & painless but it makes life much nicer here... It's almost like you are a green apprentice until you do it...:laughing:

And getting sent for a pipe stretcher or bucket of steam is nice in comparison to what happens here...:laughing:


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

I texted the HO and asked him to fill the tank, put some food coloring in it, turn off the stop, let it sit overnight. Maybe that will reveal something. I'm completely out of answers on this one.


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

Yep, I did the intro just now. Don't mind being an old newby.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Did you replace the flush valve and flush valve gasket... Kohler had a lot of their gaskets that would deteriorate in chlorine & chloramine where the gaskets would ripple so badly that they could hold a flapper off the seat. Leaking between the tank and flush valve is also possible with these gaskets.

Turning of the stop will not stop the siphonage from the tank through the bowl refill tube into the overflow if it has already started siphoning when the angle stop was shut off.

What flapper did you install? The one with the float on the chain or the timer cone that you turn to adjust?

I wrote this on my website Replacing A Flapper On Kohler Ingenium Flushing System Toilets


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

cimafish said:


> I texted the HO and asked him to fill the tank, put some food coloring in it, turn off the stop, let it sit overnight. Maybe that will reveal something. I'm completely out of answers on this one.


It's got to be going somewhere...
With a 2 piece it is either on the floor or through the bowl...


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

Yes, Red, everything is new, and I mean everything. I stripped the tank down to the porcelain and replaced everything. Remember, I came back and glued (with silicon) a new seat on. I checked each of the Korkys to make certain they were not warped. I did not use the flapper with the float on the chain. It was a basic Korky. I also adjusted the chain so that it could not possibly get under the flapper. I've repaired innumerable water closets and have never had a problem like this. I don't think the water could siphon through the filler tube since it is new with a new gasket and sufficiently tight. It is a frustrating mystery. Has anyone ever had this problem before?


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

I agree Red. It is illogical that the leak cannot be detected from a simple Kohler tank. It is like sitting a glass full of water on a counter and watching it slowly drain. It is not rational.


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

I even replaced the handle in case the old handle was somehow pulling the flapper sideways and off the seat slightly.


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

There were no obvious cracks in the tank. Besides, that much water would certainly be visible with paper towels on the floor around the bowl.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I'll put the dice on a cracked tank, prolly right at the flush valve...

Sell them a nice new Toto...


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

The water level is set well below the top of the overflow. No water has shown up on the ceiling below and this problem has been going on several days.
It's midnight out here, folks. I've got to get some sleep so I can hit the ground running in the morning. Might not sleep much with this on my mind, but I'm going to try. Thanks for your responses.


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

You could be right, Red. Even so, wouldn't the food color I initially put in the tank have revealed it?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

cimafish said:


> You could be right, Red. Even so, wouldn't the food color I initially put in the tank have revealed it?


It should... 
The water is either going on the floor or through the bowl...
No other options..


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

They'll probably want a Kohler Cimarron. It has the tank to bowl bolts molded into the porcelain so less chances of leaks. Don't mind Totos, but refuse to install Jacuzzi toilets. Cheap, Chinese junk, no disrespect intended to the people of China.


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

No other options, Red. It is illogical and I can't stand not to know what it going on with that tank. Don't like to be stumped by a simple toilet.


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

Interesting issue. Other than what someone else said of pulling the tank and filling it and watching for leaks, maybe it was difficult to see the blue food coloring. I've used red with luck.


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Overnight the tank was emptied and there is food coloring in the bowl. It has to be a crack somewhere in the tank. I'll keep everyone apprised.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Look right around the edge of the flush valve hole....:thumbup:


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Did you.... never mind...


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

I chunk all cracked tanks/toilets. I'm sorry for the inconvenience to the customer, but I won't charge him to replace the toilet. Just be slipping a bit in my old age.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

cimafish said:


> They'll probably want a Kohler Cimarron. It has the tank to bowl bolts molded into the porcelain so less chances of leaks. Don't mind Totos, but refuse to install Jacuzzi toilets. Cheap, Chinese junk, no disrespect intended to the people of China.


Maybe not... You keep using the term Korky -- OK If it is a straight flush valve, but if it's a angle valve Korky could leak through.


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

I even glued a new seat on the flush valve and the Korky is setting on it perfectly flat. But it is difficult to determine 100% without using a light and mirror. Since it is behaving as it was before I began working on it, I'm assuming the leak has nothing to do with what I did. Of course, we all know about assumptions. I can't make money dinking with this thing. I'm just to stubborn to quit before I get an answer.


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

I assume that the refill tube has the air break fitting attached to the overflow tube and not just pushed down the overflow?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

tim666 said:


> I assume that the refill tube has the air break fitting attached to the overflow tube and not just pushed down the overflow?


Was thinking the same thing. I have seen Fluid Master fill valves siphon water into the overflow. Yeah I know their engineers say it is impossible. That's just another reason why we do not issue plumbing licenses to engineers.

However, I think the OP mention putting dye in the tank. Blue water should show up in the bowl if that was the case.


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## tim666 (Mar 11, 2014)

plbgbiz said:


> Was thinking the same thing. I have seen Fluid Master fill valves siphon water into the overflow. Yeah I know their engineers say it is impossible. That's just another reason why we do not issue plumbing licenses to engineers. However, I think the OP mention putting dye in the tank. Blue water should show up in the bowl if that was the case.


A later post did mention that there was dye in the bowl in the morning


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## IAplumber (Mar 28, 2010)

Check the refill tube has its air break and not shoved down overflow. Like said earlier. Had a apprentice go back 7 times changed everything and that was problem. Back syphonage.


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

tim666 said:


> I assume that the refill tube has the air break fitting attached to the overflow tube and not just pushed down the overflow?


Yes it does. Thanks.


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

tim666 said:


> A later post did mention that there was dye in the bowl in the morning


Yes, I put coloring in the tank, but it did not show up in the bowl after 20 minutes. However, the HO put color in the tank and shut off the stop and left it overnight per my request. The next morning there was color in the bowl and the tank was drained. It's most likely a crack, as Red suggested, near the flush valve. If that is the case, I'm replacing the tank tomorrow. I've done everything else and the problem that existed before I touched it remains.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

cimafish said:


> Yes, I put coloring in the tank, but it did not show up in the bowl after 20 minutes. However, the HO put color in the tank and shut off the stop and left it overnight per my request. The next morning there was color in the bowl and the tank was drained. It's most likely a crack, as Red suggested, near the flush valve. If that is the case, I'm replacing the tank tomorrow. I've done everything else and the problem that existed before I touched it remains.


From one gray beard to another, you might consider changing the bowl as well. Cheap insurance at this point.


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

plbgbiz said:


> From one gray beard to another, you might consider changing the bowl as well. Cheap insurance at this point.


Thanks, I might consider it if it was a newer toilet. At this point, I'm ready to know for sure what caused the leak, put on the new tank, and get out of there. I like things simple, put on the parts, correct the problem, and get paid.  Lost money on this one. I'm too old to be losing money.


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## cydejob (Feb 19, 2012)

Im with Redwood. Also you say you glued the new components in and Im assuming you silicone or epoxied the flush valve. In order to do that you need it to be perfectly clean and dry and the sealant would need to cure for about a day. With all the time you have in this repair I would just chalk it up as a loss and just through a new toilet in. You have wasted enough of your time.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

i have never spent this amount of time repairing anything. a couple hundred dollars for a new toilet. replace it already. take the old pile of disappointment back to the shop and play with it after hours. you have more patience, time and customers money than me. not ripping on you personally, but you are not fixing a $10,000 diesel engine. its a throw away toilet.


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## sgamar (Oct 30, 2014)

Very goog, thank you


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

sgamar said:


> Very goog, thank you


This goog is not even a plumber!


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

sgamar said:


> Very goog, thank you


By by


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> i have never spent this amount of time repairing anything. a couple hundred dollars for a new toilet. replace it already. take the old pile of disappointment back to the shop and play with it after hours. you have more patience, time and customers money than me. not ripping on you personally, but you are not fixing a $10,000 diesel engine. its a throw away toilet.


Well, he's a very good customer and a friend of many years. I did not charge him full price and he couldn't afford a new toilet.


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

The final news on this toilet is that I do not know what caused the tank to leak. I took it apart and could not find a crack. I removed the flush valve and held it up eye level and the flush valve is seating effectively. I came to the conclusion that it was a rare combination of issues. The old flapper was bad and the new flush valve probably has a crack in it somewhere. After I installed a new tank (left over from a new toilet with a cracked bowl) the problem was solved. One of those odd situations. Anyway, thanks for all the replies from everyone.


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

Bill said:


> By by


I don't quite understand your's and the two posts before it. Are y'all implying that I'm not a plumber? If so, I'd me obliged to message one of the moderators a link to NC Licensing site and my license number. I'd also gladly leave your forum if my membership is creating any problems.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

sgamar is not a plumber. he is a spammer that interrupted your thread. its nothing against you


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

Ok. I'm thankful to have discovered this forum. Thought maybe my credentials were in question. I messaged Bill my license number and a link to the NC license board website license lookup.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

cimafish said:


> Ok. I'm thankful to have discovered this forum. Thought maybe my credentials were in question. I messaged Bill my license number and a link to the NC license board website license lookup.


You're fine here as long you use the folding ruler..


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## cimafish (Oct 29, 2014)

rjbphd said:


> You're fine here as long you use the folding ruler..


Lol, don't even know where I laid it down.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> Maybe not... You keep using the term Korky -- OK If it is a straight flush valve, but if it's a angle valve Korky could leak through.





cimafish said:


> I came to the conclusion that it was a rare combination of issues. The old flapper was bad and the new flush valve probably has a crack in it somewhere. ne.


I have seen where refill tube on the flush valve was cracked at the bottom and losing water from that but that wouldn't matter in your situation


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