# Will CPVC water pipe condensate?



## Marshall (Sep 6, 2011)

I have a job that calls for piping a house in CPVC water pipe. My question is... will CPVC condensate and should I figure insulating the piping? The pipe will be installed in the conditioned area of the house.

Thanks.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

You should post an introduction, and refer to your code book.


http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/


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## southfl plumber (Sep 4, 2011)

YOu should always use sch 40 pvc for condensates. If the hvac guy has to hookup the unit he can without any problems.If you run the condensate from the a/c unit to the exterior of house and on all horizontal piping must be insulated.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Oh my God. I just can not stand it.

Let me fix the question for you. 



Will condensation form on cpvc pipe?



Now go post an intro.


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## Pipecommandor (Apr 18, 2011)

Marshall said:


> I have a job that calls for piping a house in CPVC water pipe. My question is... will CPVC condensate and should I figure insulating the piping? The pipe will be installed in the conditioned area of the house.
> 
> Thanks.


CPVC will Shirley condensate, I highly recommend threading black iron pipe for potable water lines, will not condensate


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Pipecommandor said:


> CPVC will Shirley condensate, I highly recommend threading black iron pipe for potable water lines, will not condensate


True, but can you find schedule 5 BMI pipe just anywhere...??? :whistling2:


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

If you sleeve the cpvc with wirsbo it will keep it from condensating. This would be a lot cheaper than 5 BMI.


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

DesertOkie said:


> If you sleeve the cpvc with wirsbo it will keep it from condensating. This would be a lot cheaper than 5 BMI.


But it will condensate inside the Wirsbo, then you'll have to run it into a sump and pump it out to the storm drain. Then you have to find a place to mount the alarm panel, run power to the alarm panel...all that jazz.

Better to run it in stainless steel, TIG welded.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

hroark2112 said:


> But it will condensate inside the Wirsbo, then you'll have to run it into a sump and pump it out to the storm drain. Then you have to find a place to mount the alarm panel, run power to the alarm panel...all that jazz.
> 
> Better to run it in stainless steel, TIG welded.


Your right I just reread his post, the line will be in the conditioned area of the house stainless would be the best, unless he can find an experienced glass blower in that area. If he can the answer is obvious.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Great idea, Goalie. 

You should let them know that you must use type 316L, not 18-8. or 304. . The "L" stands for low condensate.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

He didn't say where he was or what code guys!

If he can find a local orangeburg retailer, then this thread answers itself!


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Yes, the Bowel Movement Index rose shortly today and then dropped like a 6 pound brown trout in a pail of less than 2 inch of water. 


Indeed....


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

Good point.

I do like the look of stainless piping. Wish I could use it on all my jobs!!


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Great idea, Goalie.
> 
> . The "L" stands for low condensate.


*U666A mops up "Pabst Blue Ribbon" off the kitchen floor as his nostrils burn*


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm still hung up on Dunbars bowel movement... Seesh..

Haha


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Chicago code would require titanium pipe with bevel weld joints, it would probably be cheaper to send the entire project into outer space to weld it than to create a total vacuum chamber on site.


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

[B said:


> Killertoiletspider[/B];206218]Chicago code would require titanium pipe with bevel weld joints, it would probably be cheaper to send the entire project into outer space to weld it than to create a total vacuum chamber on site.


BEST user name ever!!!


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Mods must be snoozing, this is still open....:laughing:


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

who said plumbers were not creative


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

hroark2112 said:


> BEST user name ever!!!


The hell you say.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

You'll be fine if you wrap all the pipe with .....


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Chicago code would require titanium pipe with bevel weld joints, it would probably be cheaper to send the entire project into outer space to weld it than to create a total vacuum chamber on site.


Just bag the house and fill it with Argon... :thumbup:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Marshall said:


> I have a job that calls for piping a house in CPVC water pipe. My question is... will CPVC condensate and should I figure insulating the piping? The pipe will be installed in the conditioned area of the house.
> 
> Thanks.


I feel for you...

Forced to use CPVC is a intolerable situation for sure....


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

Pipecommandor said:


> CPVC will Shirley condensate, I highly recommend threading black iron pipe for potable water lines, will not condensate


Black iron pipe will rust dummy


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

Michaelcookplum said:


> Black iron pipe will rust dummy


He who laughs last, thinks slowest!

:whistling2:


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Michaelcookplum said:


> Black iron pipe will rust dummy


Your skull just might be thicker than the sarcasm in this thread!

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Michaelcookplum said:


> Black iron pipe will rust dummy


Sometimes it is a good idea to actually read the thread before posting.... :laughing:


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

You all got it wrong if it's cpvc you just need to coat the whole pipe and fittings in extra primer it prevents condensate from forming in the first place.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I just had a great idea. 

You could coat the pipe with asphalt tar. Then, it would not drip. Like a roof. 

Yeah, thats the ticket...............


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Well....to answer the original question......if the ambient relative humidity is such and the differential in ambient temperature is such, with relation to the temperature of the water and its corresponding tranference to the corresponding pipe and even though it is in conditioned space, if the conditioning is such that it can not overcome all the adverse conditions then there is a distinct possibility that such and such could and would occur howbeit, without all the necessary data the extent of that possibility is an unknown...hope that helps...there is still a lot we dont know about condensation.....

Extraterrestrial water vapor
Further information: Extraterrestrial liquid water
The brilliance of comet tails comes largely from water vapor. On approach to the sun, the ice many comets carry sublimates to vapor, which reflects light from the sun. Knowing a comet's distance from the sun, astronomers may deduce a comet's water content from its brilliance.[19] Bright tails in cold and distant comets suggests carbon monoxide sublimation.
Scientists studying Mars hypothesize that if water moves about the planet, it does so as vapor.[20] Most of the water on Mars appears to exist as ice at the northern pole. During Mars' summer, this ice sublimates, perhaps enabling massive seasonal storms to convey significant amounts of water toward the equator.[21]
A star called CW Leonis was found to have a ring of vast quantities of water vapor circling the aging, massive star. A NASA satellite designed to study chemicals in interstellar gas clouds, made the discovery with an onboard spectrometer. Most likely, "the water vapor was vaporized from the surfaces of orbiting comets."[22]
Spectroscopic analysis of HD 209458 b, an extrasolar planet in the constellation Pegasus, provides the first evidence of atmospheric water vapor beyond the Solar System.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Michaelcookplum said:


> Black iron pipe will rust dummy


Another great argument for stainless.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Michaelcookplum said:


> Black iron pipe will rust dummy


 




His post as well as many others in this thread are facetious and sarcastic.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Marshall said:


> I have a job that calls for piping a house in CPVC water pipe. My question is... will CPVC condensate and should I figure insulating the piping? The pipe will be installed in the conditioned area of the house.
> 
> Thanks.


 




No. It won't condensate. But it will condom-sate. So you better practice 'safe-plumbing'....and use a condom over your pipe.


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## southfl plumber (Sep 4, 2011)

Sorry misunderstood the question and it condensate if there is a tempature diff. In the Soffit or attic space.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

*9.1. Basic Processes of Condensation*


By analogy with the process of evaporation, liquid may form in one of three ways corresponding to the existence of an unstable, metastable or stable equilibrium state. Let us briefly look at each one of these to understand the condensation process. In practical engineering design of heat exchange equipment the stable condensation situation needs to exist. 
Consider a liquid drop of radius, _r_*, in equilibrium with its surrounding vapor at a system temperature,







, and pressure,







. The vapor pressure, under equilibrium conditions, is higher than the vapor pressure,







, for a planar surface, and this difference is given by 









where _R_ is the vapor gas constant and







is the surface tension between the liquid and vapor. With the local condition of mechanical equilibrium for the liquid droplet and its pressure,







, 









one can find the liquid pressure in the droplet as 









One can also use the Clausius-Clapeyron relation to calculate for this simple situation the saturation temperature,







, of the droplet above the vapor temperature for maintaining this equilibrium 









Analogous to boiling, the rate of nucleation of these liquid droplets depends on whether one considers homogeneous nucleation or heterogeneous nucleation processes. For homogeneous nucleation the rate expression, _dn_/_dt_, is quite similar to that for boiling,


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

where _m_ is the mass of one vapor molecule. One should note that in a similar fashion to boiling this nucleation rate is altered if it occurs on solid surfaces since the work required to form a critical size nuclei (_r_*) is reduced due to wetting of the solid surface. 
Now in reference to the more stable situations of a vapor condensing on a planar surface covered by its own liquid one must consider the local mass transfer situation. Consider a pure saturated vapor at a pressure,







, and a temperature,







, condensing on its own liquid phase whose surface temperature is







. The phenomenon of such an interface mass transfer can be viewed from the standpoint of kinetic theory as a difference between two quantities; a rate of arrival of molecules from the vapor space towards the interface and a rate of departure of molecules from the surface of the liquid into the vapor space. When condensation takes place the arrival rate exceeds the departure rate. During evaporation the reverse occurs, and during an equilibrium the two rates are equal and there is no net mass transfer. 
From kinetic theory it can be shown that, in a stationary container of molecules, the mass rate of flow (of molecules) passing in either direction (to right or left) through an imagined plane is given by 









where







= flux of molecules (mass per unit time per unit area) _M_ =molecular weight _R_ = universal gas constant _P_ and _T_ = pressure and temperature related by the saturation line. Equation 7 is the starting point for many theories of interfacial phase change. 
In general it can be stated that the net molecular flux through an interface is the difference between these fluxes in the directions from gas to liquid and vice-versa, 








Since the condition close to the surface is not one of static thermal equilibrium, for any significant rate of evaporation or condensation, it is really not meaningful to make use of the thermostatic pressure and temperature on each side of the interface. Rather there is a concentration and therefore, a temperature difference,







, across this interface which drives the mass transfer. Strictly speaking one should solve the Boltzman transport equation with appropriate boundary conditions and asymptotes which are conditions of thermal equilibrium at several mean free path distances from the interface. However, some considerable success for engineering purposes has been achieved by using simplified kinetic theory techniques and applying correction factors to the resulting predictions of this mass transfer and the associated temperature difference. In *most* practical situations the energy removal rate from this interface controls the condensation rate. Only in the presence of noncondensable gases (continuum) or at low pressure (non-continuum) is this temperature difference,







, important to consider. We will investigate the case of the presence of noncondensable gases during condensation; one can get a physical feeling of the magnitude of this temperature difference.



I hope you caught that because I dont want to repeat myself


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## Pipecommandor (Apr 18, 2011)

southfl plumber said:


> Sorry misunderstood the question and it condensate if there is a tempature diff. In the Soffit or attic space.


Lol, I think it's time to close this thread !!!


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

stillaround said:


> wall of textbook


Thank you for that lesson, much appreciated. The formulas aren't showing up, could you type them out or try re-posting them?

Thanks in advance


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I dont know how I can make it it any plainer


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

stillaround said:


> Well....to answer the original question......if the ambient relative humidity is such and the differential in ambient temperature is such, with relation to the temperature of the water and its corresponding tranference to the corresponding pipe and even though it is in conditioned space, if the conditioning is such that it can not overcome all the adverse conditions then there is a distinct possibility that such and such could and would occur howbeit, without all the necessary data the extent of that possibility is an unknown...hope that helps...there is still a lot we dont know about condensation.....
> 
> Extraterrestrial water vapor
> Further information: Extraterrestrial liquid water
> ...


StillAround, Thanks for covering for me in my absence... :thumbup:
You did a splendid job!


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Just bag the house and fill it with Argon... :thumbup:


You have accomplished nothing. Titanium can only be worked in a complete vacuum.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

I saw that liquid rubber spray on tv that might do the trick. That or you could use schedule 80 ips seamless black pipe (American made)


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> You have accomplished nothing. Titanium can only be worked in a complete vacuum.


No! Argon shielding is sufficient. :yes:



> AWS recommends using analytical equipment to measure shielding gas purity prior to welding. Gas purity varies by application. Typical specifications require that the shielding gas (typically argon) be not less than 99.995 percent purity with not more than 5 to 20 ppm free oxygen and have a dew point better than –50 to –76°F. http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/index.php?page=article120.html


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

and the award goes to Stillaround for that rousingly interesting post which had to have taken considerable thought and way more time than normally allotted for facetiousiousness which is not a word and probably never will be a word for that matter but when you get right down to it the problem with condensation in the first place is that it generally occurs at the worst of times relative to the juxtaposition of the atomic and molecular structure of the materials in question and therefore we must all come to the righteous conclusion that yes indeed CPVC will and indeed must support condensation provided those conditions are met.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

nhmaster3015 said:


> and the award goes to stillaround for that rousingly interesting post which had to have taken considerable thought and way more time than normally allotted for facetiousiousness which is not a word and probably never will be a word for that matter but when you get right down to it the problem with condensation in the first place is that it generally occurs at the worst of times relative to the juxtaposition of the atomic and molecular structure of the materials in question and therefore we must all come to the righteous conclusion that yes indeed cpvc will and indeed must support condensation provided those conditions are met.


 wurd


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