# Sewer lining has big risks



## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Started shooting a 62' 4" liner Wednesday. Get everything prepared to go. Load it in the trash can with ice to keep the resin cool. We get 20' in and my helper says there's smoke coming from the trash can. Apparently when you accordian fold the liner into the trash can the resin can get too hot inside the liner, even with ice on it. Second time it's happened to me. We immediately cut the liner and try to pull it out but its already started setting and it would not budge. I hook up the winch from my truck and hook the liner and it pulls the clay pipe from its joint. So here we are Friday digging up the sewer laying a new pipe. 






































































































Next time I will fill the trash can with ice and water and submerge the whole liner, except he ends of course, while shooting it in.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

Sorry, but is a little amusing to see your truck marked "trenchless drain pipe replacement" at the end of that trench. You just know that somebody driving by was scratching their head!!!


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

You must have mixed hot, or had a bad batch of hardener. I used an large ice chest with water/ice/veg oil mix in the AZ summer heat no prob.

Did you have a new guy on the job? If not I think any leftover in those can would be trash.

No two way cleanouts at the house?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

You are to be commended!

Even when the whole thing went to Hell in a hand basket, your customer is getting a super clean job. Well done sir.


Question: Why a no-hub coupling on ABS?


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

DesertOkie said:


> You must have mixed hot, or had a bad batch of hardener. I used an large ice chest with water/ice/veg oil mix in the AZ summer heat no prob.
> 
> Did you have a new guy on the job? If not I think any leftover in those can would be trash.
> 
> No two way cleanouts at the house?


Mixed it mid morning. Maybe high 80 degree weather. May have been a bad batch now that I think about it. Came from the same can that did the same thing a few weeks ago. Anyone using the drum machines, LMK or Perma - Liner ever have the liner start to cure prematurely while rolled up inside the machine? I'm thinking its only the quik shot and max-liner types.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> You are to be commended!
> 
> Even when the whole thing went to Hell in a hand basket, your customer is getting a super clean job. Well done sir.
> 
> Question: Why a no-hub coupling on ABS?


The pipe below the coupling is HDPE pipe.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

sierra2000 said:


> Mixed it mid morning. Maybe high 80 degree weather. May have been a bad batch now that I think about it. Came from the same can that did the same thing a few weeks ago. Anyone using the drum machines, LMK or Perma - Liner ever have the liner start to cure prematurely while rolled up inside the machine? I'm thinking its only the quik shot and max-liner types.


Do you mix just before blowing it in? 

You might check your scale also, they get crappy when sloppy guys are mixing. We mixed hot a few times because of that. I have done a few trench liners. Most when we were working out the kinks of our hot water curing system.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

sierra2000 said:


> The pipe below the coupling is HDPE pipe.


You may want to consider a longer and/or a more secure coupling next time. HDPE has a much higher coefficient rating than PVC and ABS. It can move a lot.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> You may want to consider a longer and/or a more secure coupling next time. HDPE has a much higher coefficient rating than PVC and ABS. It can move a lot.


Double post.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> You may want to consider a longer and/or a more secure coupling next time. HDPE has a much higher coefficient rating than PVC and ABS. It can move a lot.


That is our longer and heavy duty coupling out here. Has four nuts instead of two. Requires 80 lbs torque vs 60 lbs. We used to use them all the time back when I was in the union.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Reason why you used HDPE over ABS?


I've gone to using a standard fernco and adding a no hub coupling sleeve to the middle. Makes a super strong coupling going between different materials that cost like 10 bucks


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

Maybe Redwood will chime in but I think he said it happened to them also (max liner) and yea it was because it cooked while folded together. On mine when it gets loaded into the tank it gets blown into the line within 5 minutes so I have never had that problem but I always remember Redwoods advice.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

This is what we use. However, ours are hardly ever that shallow. 9' deep at the basement footing or 12' deep at a riser is a horrible place to have a disfigured fitting. Tree roots and ground weight can be a terrible burden on an elastomeric coupling. Even with extra clamps.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Will said:


> Reason why you used HDPE over ABS?
> 
> I've gone to using a standard fernco and adding a no hub coupling sleeve to the middle. Makes a super strong coupling going between different materials that cost like 10 bucks


The guy who dug the trench for me does pipe bursting and had some left over that he threw in for no charge. Says its stronger than ABS.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> This is what we use. However, ours are hardly ever that shallow. 9' deep at the basement footing or 12' deep at a riser is a horrible place to have a disfigured fitting. Tree roots and ground weight can be a terrible burden on an elastomeric coupling. Even with extra clamps.


That looks heavy duty.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Anything at the tap gets concreted in if I'm doing the install. Won't pull apart, move, or get roots. At least not in my life time.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Cuda said:


> Maybe Redwood will chime in but I think he said it happened to them also (max liner) and yea it was because it cooked while folded together. On mine when it gets loaded into the tank it gets blown into the line within 5 minutes so I have never had that problem but I always remember Redwoods advice.


Sometimes with my quik shot it can take more time than I like before the line is in. I wouldn't get this machine if I had it to do over.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Cuda said:


> Maybe Redwood will chime in but I think he said it happened to them also (max liner) and yea it was because it cooked while folded together. On mine when it gets loaded into the tank it gets blown into the line within 5 minutes so I have never had that problem but I always remember Redwoods advice.


Yep early on in our learning curve we cooked one off prematurely and yanked it out running out of the house and dumping it on the sidewalk smoking and turning black...
Interestingly enough the only places it was turning black was where it was together, it probably would have caught fire if we didn't separate it, kicking it apart...

Rule #1 is keep it cool...
Ice the resin and hardener...
Do not mix the resin & saturate the liner in direct sunlight...
On those dog days of summer, think that job has to be shot 1st thing in the am...
Don't fold and stack the liner as heat will build...

Oh yea... Measure the resin & hardener really close too...
If anything a little less hardener for a slower cure...

You can always wait a little longer on the other end, but if it cooks off 1/2 way in doom on you....

Pay attention! The second the resin and hardener come together the clock is ticking!


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Redwood said:


> Yep early on in our learning curve we cooked one off prematurely and yanked it out running out of the house and dumping it on the sidewalk smoking and turning black...
> 
> Rule #1 is keep it cool...
> Ice the resin and hardener...
> ...


Have you tried folding it over in a trash can with ice and water, fully submerging the liner? Thinking of trying it next job.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sierra2000 said:


> Have you tried folding it over in a trash can with ice and water, fully submerging the liner? Thinking of trying it next job.


Nope, we lay it out without contact with the rest of the liner, it's been working for us for years now...

One other thing we do is just before the mix we run through exactly what everyone is doing with a dry walk through, and check everything that it is set up and ready. Checked and double checked, practice makes perfect...

Extra hands is good, it gives possible new team members a chance to get their feet wet with the operation and really it only is a short time they will be used, the operation doesn't take long and they are on their way to other jobs...


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Redwood said:


> Yep early on in our learning curve we cooked one off prematurely and yanked it out running out of the house and dumping it on the sidewalk smoking and turning black...
> Interestingly enough the only places it was turning black was where it was together, it probably would have caught fire if we didn't separate it, kicking it apart...
> 
> Rule #1 is keep it cool...
> ...


+1 on the icing the hardener and resin. I don't know how you don't fold yours up. 120 foot of straight line to our hole is hard to come by. We had no problem with our ice chest method. 

I always kept an eye on the mix bucket, once it started smoking you knew you were close to game over.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

DesertOkie said:


> +1 on the icing the hardener and resin. I don't know how you don't fold yours up. 120 foot of straight line to our hole is hard to come by. We had no problem with our ice chest method.
> 
> I always kept an eye on the mix bucket, once it started smoking you knew you were close to game over.


We'll loop it out and spread it out, but it will never be stacked in layers or, touching, that's where the extra hands become very handy...


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Extra hands= less money.
We had good results with oily icy water, much better than the spray bottles they wanted us to use. 

To each their own.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

DesertOkie said:


> Extra hands= less money.
> We had good results with oily icy water, much better than the spray bottles they wanted us to use.
> 
> To each their own.


I like the idea of oily ice water even better. Cuts down on one more step of having someone spraying it down.


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## younger-plumber (Sep 12, 2008)

someone post a video of this process. ive heard of it but never seen anyone do it! here in nc the sewers are 1-2 foot below the sand so we normally hand dig the *******s out in 4 hours haha.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

DesertOkie said:


> Extra hands= less money.
> We had good results with oily icy water, much better than the spray bottles they wanted us to use.
> 
> To each their own.


Not really...

The regular crew arrives early and sets it all up, getting everything ready to go. Then we have some guys swing by for their first job of the day and they arrive just for the main event, being there probably all of an hour at the most. With our system the spraying is done as it is put into the inverter, Max-Liner doesn't use a drum set up on the inverter...

After the shot the extra hands are gone and one guy stays to monitor the air pressure on the calibration liner waiting for it to cure.

Sometimes we'll do a couple in one day...


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> This is what we use. However, ours are hardly ever that shallow. 9' deep at the basement footing or 12' deep at a riser is a horrible place to have a disfigured fitting. Tree roots and ground weight can be a terrible burden on an elastomeric coupling. Even with extra clamps.



Is it all stainless steel?

Tell me it's not regular steel with paint or powder coat.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Is it all stainless steel?
> 
> Tell me it's not regular steel with paint or powder coat.


I don't now what is under the blue paint. The hardware is all stainless. They are designed for water main repairs.


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

So is Perma Liner the best system for lining?


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

HSI said:


> So is Perma Liner the best system for lining?


It sure isn't my unit.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

HSI said:


> So is Perma Liner the best system for lining?


From all the research I did on lining systems I found LMK is the best system out there. We where going to invest in a lining system till some of the cities we work in were lining sewers at no charge to home owners. Back then I thought to myself why drop such a huge chunk of cash on a system to try and compete against the cities?


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

I am working towards lining in the next couple of years. That will be my second major purchase jetter is first. Two expensive items.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Yep early on in our learning curve we cooked one off prematurely and yanked it out running out of the house and dumping it on the sidewalk smoking and turning black...
> Interestingly enough the only places it was turning black was where it was together, it probably would have caught fire if we didn't separate it, kicking it apart...
> 
> Rule #1 is keep it cool...
> ...


I dont plan on ever getting into that line of work, but I would like to see some good u-tube videos on how this is done for a general education... do you have any that you would recommend??


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

YouTube: Lateral Lining Through A Cleanout


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