# Is this legal?



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Some pics. Pex on new water heater install, big name company here. Other is water fountain in Restroom at lumber yard, and yes it works.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

no grab bars. is it an ada bathroom?


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

No open front toilet seat, public bathroom.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

What is that a dual purpose drinking fountain .... using it as a wash basin and a drinking fountain at the same time..

Never seen anybody put a drinking fountain in a public washroom....

As for the tank the pex has to be further from the draft hood ventor motor


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Just in case you get thirsty while taking a big #2, you can lean forward and get a sip. What are the chances everyone who uses it has washed their hands.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Maybe it's a urinal?:blink:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

It's a Bidet! :laughing:
It's got a shocker factor though...:whistling2:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Added to the IPC 2009:

*SECTION 410 DRINKING FOUNTAINS: 410.2 Prohibited Locations.
*_Drinking fountains, water coolers and bottled water dispensers shall not be installed in public restrooms.
_


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I have no problem with the pex on the water heater as there is not any high temperature flue piping near the pex. 

The drinking fountain on the other hand.........


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## accobra88 (Nov 8, 2010)

Pex needs 12" copper stubs off the top of the WH. 

The drinking fountain cannot be in the bathroom and the waste can not be indirect onto the floor.

DUH !


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

accobra88 said:


> Pex needs 12" copper stubs off the top of the WH.
> 
> DUH !


why ?


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Gas heaters. Just like cpvc. Must be metallic pipe the first 12". But like what protech said, the power vent doesnt give off heat like a typical gas heater. But I bet some inspectors will still want it done in copper though.




Bayside500 said:


> why ?


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## chuckscott (Oct 20, 2010)

In my head the idea of putting a drinking fountain in a restroom is stupid and shouldn't need code to prevent it (judging by the picture it didn't work anyway). 

With that said, that there are idiots out there who don't see how friggin disgusting it is to put a drinking fountain in a restroom is good enough reason to have code preventing it or at least trying to. 

I think I threw up a little in my mouth....


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

chuckscott said:


> In my head the idea of putting a drinking fountain in a restroom is stupid and shouldn't need code to prevent it (judging by the picture it didn't work anyway).
> 
> With that said, that there are idiots out there who don't see how friggin disgusting it is to put a drinking fountain in a restroom is good enough reason to have code preventing it or at least trying to.
> 
> I think I threw up a little in my mouth....



It works, I hit the handle.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Indie said:


> Just in case you get thirsty while taking a big #2, you can lean forward and get a sip. What are the chances everyone who uses it has washed their hands.


 
I laughed hard at your post...that is funny right there.


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## 130 PLUMBER (Oct 22, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> Added to the IPC 2009:
> 
> *SECTION 410 DRINKING FOUNTAINS: 410.2 Prohibited Locations.*
> _Drinking fountains, water coolers and bottled water dispensers shall not be installed in public restrooms._


That is definitely not allowed here!!!


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> Added to the IPC 2009:
> 
> *SECTION 410 DRINKING FOUNTAINS: 410.2 Prohibited Locations.
> *_Drinking fountains, water coolers and bottled water dispensers shall not be installed in public restrooms.
> _



But they are allowed in private bathrooms and i think some of you guys are missing a great sales opportunity. I make great money installing water fountains in all my customers bathrooms, and with the indirect drainage my costs are kept low (and now you wont need a primer for you floor drains) 

WIN WIN


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## ironandfire (Oct 9, 2008)

:thumbsup:


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## sheeptown44 (Oct 31, 2010)

ironandfire, that is just wrong.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Why not go ahead and install a soda bar with chips and dip:thumbup:


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

So, you can't put a toilet in a hallway?


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## Spiderpheonix (Jan 23, 2011)

In Ireland you cannot have pex within 500 mm of a heat source! I can't fully remember why but I have seen it done and the ring cut through the pipe because of expansion and contraction


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## reposessions (Nov 1, 2010)

That sounds like the reason. Lol


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## Spiderpheonix (Jan 23, 2011)

Good point! Perhaps my subconscious is a better plumber than me lol


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## tyholmes (Jan 31, 2011)

Originally Posted by Plumber: The way the code was explained to me is that water expands more by flame than electric, so its (thermal expansion tank) not needed on electric. dV = V0 β (t1 - t0)

You don't need a expansion tank on a domestic hot water heater, because its not a closed system. However on a boiler, or other such closed system, you would, otherwise your relief valve will always be leaking or worse.. Also if your water heater is used for heating purposes (which I have seen, but don't agree with) then yes, you would need a expansion tank.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

tyholmes said:


> Originally Posted by Plumber: The way the code was explained to me is that water expands more by flame than electric, so its (thermal expansion tank) not needed on electric. dV = V0 β (t1 - t0)
> 
> You sometimes need a expansion tank on a domestic hot water heater, because sometimes its a closed system, if there is that thing at the water meter . However on a boiler, or other such closed system, you would, otherwise your relief valve will always be leaking or worse.. Also if your water heater is used for heating purposes (which I have seen, but don't agree with) then yes, you would need a expansion tank.


Fixed it for ya. Now go away.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

tyholmes said:


> Originally Posted by Plumber: The way the code was explained to me is that water expands more by flame than electric, so its (thermal expansion tank) not needed on electric. dV = V0 β (t1 - t0)
> 
> You don't need a expansion tank on a domestic hot water heater, because its not a closed system. However on a boiler, or other such closed system, you would, otherwise your relief valve will always be leaking or worse.. Also if your water heater is used for heating purposes (which I have seen, but don't agree with) then yes, you would need a expansion tank.


You often need an expansion tank in residential systems because often the water meter will have a check valve, which creates a closed system.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Airgap said:


> So, you can't put a toilet in a hallway?


I have seen it done, well not the toilet, but the plumbing for it.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

plumbpro said:


> You often need an expansion tank in residential systems because often the water meter will have a check valve, which creates a closed system.


This stuff should always include "depending where you are". We do not have dual checks on our yokes or anything other type of BFP.

Mark


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## Lifer (Nov 23, 2010)

We are required ( by the town , Authority having jurisdiction ) to install domestic style expansion tanks and DUAL check valves in every house or business, in the backwards little town I am living in .... So be careful who or what you are calling wrong or incorrect on the Internet. 

Also not all heating systems are closed systems ... some do not need expansion tanks . Just ask AIRGAP....




Lifer..


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

I went in a water heater tank leak Saturday, spraying out of the bottom where the gas exhaust goes out. Made me wonder if the heater failed because of no expansion tank. There is no code in that county for them, as there is no check valve in the incoming water.


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## Lifer (Nov 23, 2010)

Indie said:


> I went in a water heater tank leak Saturday, spraying out of the bottom where the gas exhaust goes out. Made me wonder if the heater failed because of no expansion tank. There is no code in that county for them, as there is no check valve in the incoming water.


To my knowledge if there is no check valve on the incoming water supply there is no need for thermal expansion , it simply goes back out towards the street when it expands .Watch you meter someday as the tank heats it will actually count in reverse.

We had a guy at work put a meter in backwards and it caused some grief at the town hall when they owed the customer money... 


Lifer....


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Lifer said:


> To my knowledge if there is no check valve on the incoming water supply there is no need for thermal expansion , it simply goes back out towards the street when it expands .Watch you meter someday as the tank heats it will actually count in reverse.
> 
> We had a guy at work put a meter in backwards and it caused some grief at the town hall when they owed the customer money...
> 
> Lifer....


What about those nipples with built in flow check that come with the hwh and if removed void warranty ?

Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone


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## philackey (Feb 1, 2011)

*Code Violation*

UPC 604.11.2 *Pex tubing shall not be installed within the first 18" of piping connected to a water heater. *

_This is a clear code violation let me guess inspector missed it too._


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## philackey (Feb 1, 2011)

*Code Violation*








*Code Violation* 
UPC 604.11.2 *Pex tubing shall not be installed within the first 18" of piping connected to a water heater. *

_This is a clear code violation let me guess inspector missed it too._


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Indie said:


> I went _*in*_ a water heater tank leak Saturday...


That must have been some leak! :laughing:


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Indie said:


> I went in a water heater tank leak Saturday, spraying out of the bottom where the gas exhaust goes out. Made me wonder if the heater failed because of no expansion tank. There is no code in that county for them, as there is no check valve in the incoming water.


 
Wouldn't it just drip out the relief valve?


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## Spiderpheonix (Jan 23, 2011)

The whole thing with the meter running in reverse sounds like BS to me?! Any way if it doesn't have an expansion tank(that's an open box basically) it has an expansion vessel(like a ball with a diaphragm in the middle) that's my rule!


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## Lifer (Nov 23, 2010)

BS... humm I am contemplating taking the check valve out of my house and shooting a video of it for yea ... ohh wait I have nothing to prove I have seen it happen and been there when the phone call came in from the town telling us ( or shop and other shops not me personally ) not to touch there meters because one of them was put in backwards and was not discovered until the next set of bill's were done up ( every 3 months here ) . So .... good day to you SIR. good day.


Lifer...


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## Lifer (Nov 23, 2010)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> What about those nipples with built in flow check that come with the hwh and if removed void warranty ?
> 
> Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone


 
Good point .. I had not thought of them , we have to by Town Inspectors put in a dual check and exp. tank .. So I guess it has never come up? ... I will look into it a little deeper ,


Come to think of it , we are required to put the exp tank on the cold water side , so then is it really not doing anything if the new tanks are not allowing heated water to expand out the cold side due to a check valve in the tank....? hummm
Lifer...


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Lifer said:


> Good point .. I had not thought of them , we have to by Town Inspectors put in a dual check and exp. tank .. So I guess it has never come up? ... I will look into it a little deeper ,
> 
> Come to think of it , we are required to put the exp tank on the cold water side , so then is it really not doing anything if the new tanks are not allowing heated water to expand out the cold side due to a check valve in the tank....? hummm
> Lifer...


We don't use expansion tanks at all on our water heaters never seen the problems being discussed 
For the record I've no doubt installed a couple thousand mostly gas hwh I have seen it in long island where it was necessary due to high street pressure or at least that's what it appeared

Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone


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## Lifer (Nov 23, 2010)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> We don't use expansion tanks at all on our water heaters never seen the problems being discussed
> For the record I've no doubt installed a couple thousand mostly gas hwh I have seen it in long island where it was necessary due to high street pressure or at least that's what it appeared
> 
> 
> Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone


 
Do you guy's use check valves on the main comming in ?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Under no-flow conditions, the pipe will heat beyond it's design. It also accelerates the oxidation of the pipe if there are any oxidizers int the water (chlorine).



Spiderpheonix said:


> In Ireland you cannot have pex within 500 mm of a heat source! I can't fully remember why but I have seen it done and the ring cut through the pipe because of expansion and contraction


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Metal fatigue failure would tend to happen on the outside of the tank, not the inside flue passage. Probably just a bad weld from the factory or crappy enamel spray job.



Indie said:


> I went in a water heater tank leak Saturday, spraying out of the bottom where the gas exhaust goes out. Made me wonder if the heater failed because of no expansion tank. There is no code in that county for them, as there is no check valve in the incoming water.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Lifer said:


> Do you guy's use check valves on the main comming in ?


No not on residential but backflow prevention is required on many water mains 

I have never seen meter running backwards due to hwh (but this is plumbing) 

Most tanks here when they leak its from welds at tappings

Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

What is your static psi at main ?

Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> What is your static psi at main ?
> 
> Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone


 



Avg. used to be 50-55 psi. Just two days ago while testing and re-cetifying a backflow, my gauge showed 70 psi. 70 psi is now avg. in my area.


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## tyb (Jan 28, 2011)

Drinking fountains shall not be installed in public toilet rooms. Pex pipe needs to be 18" from water heater.


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## Lifer (Nov 23, 2010)

tyb said:


> Drinking fountains shall not be installed in public toilet rooms. Pex pipe needs to be 18" from water heater.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Dude your posts are harder to fallow then a tornado...Do you actually have any thoughts of your own on the subject . Where are you getting your information , we have all heard those exact things said a few hundred times but the question was where is it written...
> ...


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