# water service danger



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

We've all been there, replace a bad gate valve on a water service and you get shocked. It can be a little scary.
What do you guys do? Do you just wing it and not worry about it when you break it apart, wear rubber gloves, jump it? If you wear the gloves, what kind do you like? The reason I ask is lately I've had a couple of close calls. I started bringing the jumper cables in with me when doing them. Does anyone know if someone makes a smaller jumper link kit, or is it better just to make your own and if so what do you use? I hate electricity!!!!!


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

I don't see it that often but when I do, I stop and figure out what is causing it. I let the HO know about the hazard and usually sell the troubleshoot and repair. If it is a big job and beyone my scope I'll call my EC and have him walk me through the trouble shoot. If no one is there, I just run a jumper from the panel bonding point to the piping. I have seen this maybe 10 times in my life to the poing where I stopped work. I will say this, it is amazing what stupid people can do when allowed to work on homes. If you fine a shocking situation...make sure you protect yourself. Other peoples stupid homes are not worth getting hurt over.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I ground the offending pipe if I can continue to work safely. If not, I stop and HO calls sparky out. I will not fix the problem even though I am very electrically inclined due to liability and licensing issues.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

I have never run into that before. I have my mainline cable arc on the CI soil stack, That was fun. 


Plumber Jim


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

I have lost an acquaintance to this issue. I think it should be publicized more.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I use a jumper just in case...
You won't know its there til you cut the pipe.
I have heard the suits suggest latex gloves but they do not have a dielectric rating so they are not proper PPE.
When they wear a suit quite often all plumbing knowledge leaves their mind.


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

Do you all realize that very few apprentices are taught this?

I had never been taught this until my acquaintance died?

This is one of those issues that just makes my stomach knot up. I could have so easily been killed and never known what hit me.


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

22rifle said:


> Do you all realize that very few apprentices are taught this?
> 
> I had never been taught this until my acquaintance died?
> 
> This is one of those issues that just makes my stomach knot up. I could have so easily been killed and never known what hit me.


 
This is a first for me. I have never been shocked by a service line, yet.

The voltage would be measurable with a voltage meter would it not?
I will probably add that to the training for my guys today.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Thanks for the replies. It seems to be a problem in my area for some reason. I think I'll be using the jumper cables for now on.


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

uaplumber said:


> This is a first for me. I have never been shocked by a service line, yet.
> 
> The voltage would be measurable with a voltage meter would it not?
> I will probably add that to the training for my guys today.


There are some real horror stories out there about this. I never heard them until my acquaintance died from it.

Like you, I had no idea it was a potential problem. The deaths from it seem so needless and senseless.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

uaplumber said:


> This is a first for me. I have never been shocked by a service line, yet.
> 
> *The voltage would be measurable with a voltage meter would it not?*
> I will probably add that to the training for my guys today.


It would depend on which 2 points you are measuring from.
Selection of those points would involve some degree of luck to get a reading.
Voltmeters rely on a differential of voltage to get a reading.
If the main is carrying current you won't necessarily get a reading until the pipe is cut.
A jumper bonding the 2 sections of pipe created by the cut will save your life!:thumbup:


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## M5Plumb (Oct 2, 2008)

22rifle said:


> I have lost an acquaintance to this issue. I think it should be publicized more.



I agree there...I haven't run into that problem before, thank God. I assume it is older homes mostly.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

maybe could get a sparky to explain how to best test for it.

Plumber Jim


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## M5Plumb (Oct 2, 2008)

ironranger said:


> Thanks for the replies. It seems to be a problem in my area for some reason. I think I'll be using the jumper cables for now on.



What do the electrical bubba's say about it? Has there been any chiming in from them on this?


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

I have to admit ,,,, even with my " old guy" status ,,,,,HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED OR REALLY HEARD OF THIS ! What causes it ? What do we do to work around it ?

Electrically challenged Cal


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

I saw it happen once. Someone got zapped changing a meter, then we noticed that if you moved the meter the lights would flicker in the ajacent room. Want to guess who they had to call?

That's the only time I've seen it on a water line. I've seen gas line arc before while removing boilers and water heaters. Is that one normal?


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

i've ran into this twice. once on a gas line when changing a water heater. i got my job done and informed the owner, i don't know how it was fixed.  the other time was an electric water heater that had shorted and had basically electrified the entire water pipe system. that one hurt.




paul


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

One of these will tell you if the pipe is live...

http://www.extech.com/instruments/product.asp?catid=31&prodid=495


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

Redwood said:


> One of these will tell you if the pipe is live...
> 
> http://www.extech.com/instruments/product.asp?catid=31&prodid=495


I have one of those style testers, I'll give it a try. I was told all water mains do have some current going through them, usually a very small amount. Is that true and if so would that set off a false positive every time?

A couple years back one of those testers lied to me and I got shocked. At that point I put it away at that point and only use the ones with two terminals nowadays. I hate working with electric, I'm scared of the stuff.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Marlin said:


> I have one of those style testers, I'll give it a try. I was told all water mains do have some current going through them, usually a very small amount. Is that true and if so would that set off a false positive every time?
> 
> A couple years back one of those testers lied to me and I got shocked. At that point I put it away at that point and only use the ones with two terminals nowadays. I hate working with electric, I'm scared of the stuff.


The only sure way is to put a jumper across where you are making the cut.
The connection has to be an easier path for the current than through your body.

Another safety tip is the one hand rule that is used by people working on and testing live electrical circuits.

"When working on an electrical device that is active always put one hand in your pocket while adjusting your device to avoid having electricity going through one arm, across your chest and down the other arm to a grounded material which would complete a circuit by way of your heart.

This prevents the flow of electric current across the heart which causes ventricular fribullation of the heart and death.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

That was caused by inadequate grounding on the electrical system. You cut the pipe that was serving as the ground and do to the lack of surface area on the portion that was left, you became the ground when you touched it. 

A licensed sparky needs drive a ground rod or two so the next plumber doesn't get killed.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Lets take a look at how the typical home electrical system works.
You should not ever have a ground that is carrying current.
If the ground is carrying current there is an electrical problem and Sparky needs to be all over it.

Below is a diagram of a typical home electrical system. Yea, there are fewer breakers and the drawing was made easy but It's the idea of how it works that I'm sharing.










It all starts at the pole... Or, the transformer box if there are underground utilities.

There is a transfomer. It takes the power company supplied voltage and steps it down to 120 or 240 Volts depending on how your wiring is hooked up. The transformer has what is called a center tap, this is also the same thing as the neutral leg. There are 3 wires coming out of the transformer into the home. (2 hots and the neutral)

If you connect to either hot and neutral you have 120 Volts. If you connect between the 2 hots you get 240 Volts.

The 240 volt loads that are connected from hot to hot are not really a concern in this discussion. What we are concerned with is the current that is carried on the neutral wire. Only 120 Volt circuits use this neutral wire.

The loads should be somewhat balanced on the 2 hot wires and the neutral carries only the imbalance of the load between the 2 sides. If the system is properly balanced the there should be a minimal current flow on the neutral in effect the major current flow ends up going from hot to hot through the balanced 120 volt loads. On panels where there is a severe imbalance is usually where problems may start appearing. Usually the problem starts as a simple bad connection on the neutral line. This bad connection has a high resistance. Current flow across this high resistance causes heat and burning of the wire and connector. As time goes on this connection becomes worse and worse.

Lets look for a minute at imbalances on the circuits. I'm going to just throw in some numbers to make an example up. 

Lets say the circuit loads are as follows: 
#1-16 amps. #3-10 amps. # 5-10 amps. = 36 amps. total on the odd numbered breakers
#2-18 amps. #4-10 amps. #6-6amps. = 34 amps total on the even breakers.
Breakers 7-10 are 240 loads which do not affect the neutral.
The imbalance between the odd and even breakers is 2 amps. so 34 amps. is flowwing from hot to hot across the loads on the 2 different sides and 2 amps is flowing on the neutral line. Life is good and this panel is nicely balanced. the neutral is coasting through life.

Now lets go and look at a different panel leading a harder life.
#1-6 amps. #3 -4 amps. 5-2 amps. = 12 amps. total on the odd breakers.
#2-18 amps. #4-20 amps. #6-20 amps = 58 amps. total on the even numbered breakers.
The imbalance between the 2 hots is 46 amps. so only 12 amps. is shared by the load and the neutral is carrying 46 amps.

Both of these panels had the same total load of 70 amps. but it was distributed differently so one of the panels had 23 times the other in current flow on the neutral.

Now lets look at the actual neutral and ground connections. The neutral is supposed to carry the current from the load imbalance and the ground shouldn't carry any current. The ground is a safety circuit. 

But... If you will notice the neutral and ground are bonded in the breaker panel. When the bad connection on the neutral I was talking about earlier degrades enough that the ground becomes a more attractive path for current flow than the neutral with the bad connection the ground then becomes a current carrying part of the circuit. Electricity is lazy and always takes the path of the least resistance.

Now comes the hard to dicern part. There should be a ground at the panel that connects to a tested ground rod copper coated steel driven into the ground. The NEC has evolved over the years and this was not always the case. At my mom's house built in the fifties for instance the was a galvanized pipe that was driven into the ground. A couple of years ago while the lawn was being cut they bumped the ground rod with a push mower and it broke off just below the surface of the ground. We imediately replaced it of course but how good was it before it broke and for how long. Some houses have the ground bonded to the metal water supply pipes. even if they are not bonded visably the water heater will provide a ground to the water pipe connection.

Pipes can very easily be carrying current without you even knowing it. When you cut the pipe and have one and on each side of the cut pipe holding on to it guess who completes the circuit. The only safe way is to put a jumper wire conncting the pipe across the cut you are about to make. It could save your life!


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Is the charge cuased by gorunding the panel to the pipes in an improper method? This is the first I have heard of this being a possilble issue.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

I would think that the problem would be caused by 1 hot line running to ground rather than to the neutral.


Plumber jim


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Is the charge cuased by gorunding the panel to the pipes in an improper method? This is the first I have heard of this being a possilble issue.


No the problem is when the neutral circuit opens the only path for the imbalance of current that normally would be handled by the neutral is the ground. If the pipe is providing the ground then when you cut the main you are opening the circuit. Touch both pipes and you lite up and dance...



Plumber Jim said:


> I would think that the problem would be caused by 1 hot line running to ground rather than to the neutral.
> Plumber jim


If the hot line were to become grounded it would be a short circuit which would trip a circuit breaker almost instantly. The open neutral would not do that and would cause the ground to carry current.


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## gladerunner (Jan 24, 2009)

As stated above problem comes from loss of primary ground. ground to water and gas and ground rod are secondary grounds.
If you can, shutting off main breaker will eliminate problem long enough for you to complete your work.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Once you get past the branch circuits, the neutral and ground are the same thing. Go open your breaker panel and you'll notice that the grounds and neutrals from all of the branch circuits are tied to the same blocks.



Redwood said:


> No the problem is when the neutral circuit opens the only path for the imbalance of current that normally would be handled by the neutral is the ground. If the pipe is providing the ground then when you cut the main you are opening the circuit. Touch both pipes and you lite up and dance...
> 
> 
> 
> If the hot line were to become grounded it would be a short circuit which would trip a circuit breaker almost instantly. The open neutral would not do that and would cause the ground to carry current.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

I've been lit up in the line of duty at least 3 times, well really 4 but 2 of those times were because I was a big enough idiot to touch it again after it had already gotten me once. None of these were the result of cutting a pipe but rather touching something that was not supposed to have electricity on it. Once was a water heater, once was a pipe or something (I can't remember exactly) in a particular location in a crawlspace, but my favorite is the unknown one ... you know the one that you have no idea where it's coming from as your crawling along in a crawlspace, all you know is that there is suddenly electricity flowing through your body. You can't afford to panic in a situation like that because you could easily knock yourself out on a floor joist in which case you'de just lay there unconsciously cooking away, or maybe instead you just impale yourself on a 40 year old rusty nail, either way it would really, really, suck.


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## KratzerPlumbing (Feb 23, 2009)

I once got it when I dug up a C I sewer line. I thought I had dug through an electric pipe when my shovel arcked and started smoking.


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## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

KratzerPlumbing said:


> I once got it when I dug up a C I sewer line. I thought I had dug through an electric pipe when my shovel arcked and started smoking.


I was hand digging a septic line at a school once. I'm breaking up the dirt with a pick axe because a shovel isn't getting me anywhere when I hear a crack. Clear the area out with a shovel and find a piece of plastic conduit that my pick axe went clear through. I didn't break the wires, that would have been one heck of a show. 
And yes, the utilities were marked out. Someone just really sucks at marking things out.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

since we're telling stories, i've got one. i went to this customer's house a few years ago and he says he wants to tie into the existing gas line that's running to his fire pit to add a bbq. he's already dug up the iron line and has it all exposed, ready to cut and thread a tee into. no problemo. i get my 4 wheel cutters out and start cutting a section out so i can thread it and put in the tee and l/r nipple. my cutters don't quite do it all the way through so i have to get a pair of aluminum pipe wrenches and give it a little twist to break the last bit of pipe. as soon as i pop the section loose there's this huge white flash and a big pop. i didn't get shocked for some reason but i did get plenty freaked out. somebody had run 110v power in sch 40 iron pipe as conduit. 






paul


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Redwood said:


> One of these will tell you if the pipe is live...
> 
> http://www.extech.com/instruments/product.asp?catid=31&prodid=495


I was talking to an electrician I know at a party the other day and he said to use one of those too. I asked him what he thought could cause this and he said an unbalanced load in the panel.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

nope


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

We just did a job where we were hired to install an RPZ at the mater and a jumper wire before the meter and after the RPZ valve. We cut the ¾" pipe with s speed cutter, and when I grabbed the street side of the pipe I got the jolt of my life. Note I did not grab or touch the house side of the pipe. The current can come from a neighbors home, or a shorted wire out near the city main.

I wonder if what I felt there is also known as stray voltage from the power to light poles or such. http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/strayvoltage/

One I wish the sparkys would not ground to the plumbing, I would rather see them drive a ground rod in the ground and hook to it.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Plumber Jim said:


> I was talking to an electrician I know at a party the other day and he said to use one of those too. *I asked him what he thought could cause this and he said an unbalanced load in the panel.*


Yep, pretty much zackly what I said huh?:thumbup:
I would add also a high resistance connection on the neutral makes the ground the path of least resistance.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

you lost me red. Care too explain?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

The neutral and the ground are bonded at the main panel.
The neutral normally carries the current from the load imbalance of the 2 hot sides back to the center tap on the transformer. The ground does not normally see current. However, if there is a high resistance connection on the neutral line the load imbalance current will then take the path of least resistance to ground...

See the diagram I posted much earlier in the thread.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

How does the imbalance in the load make to to the neutral? I don't get it?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

The neutral will always be carrying current back to the center tap on the tranny. The only way your secondary ground is going to become energized is if you have resistance or open circuit going back to the center tap of the tranny.

I still don't understand this imbalanced load business though.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

In a 240/120 volt system you have 2 hot leads and a neutral.

Going across the 2 hots yields 240 volts, using both side equally with no imbalance possible.

Going from either of the hots to the neutral center tap yields 120 volts.

If the total load of 120 volt connections to each side is the same, then there is no imbalance and no current flow on either the neutral or ground.

If the total load of 120 volt connections to each side is different, there is an imbalance and the current flow on the neutral would equal the difference. Then throw in a resistance or, open circuit on the neutral and the ground then becomes a current carrying conductor.

Pop your panel cover off at the c/b panel at your home or shop and use a clamp on amp meter to measure the amperage of the hots, neutral, & ground to the panel. Try turning various appliances on and off seeing what happens...

Turning a built in electric oven on, both hots have an equal increase with no change in balance. The built in electric oven is a 240 volt load... Draws on both equally.

Try out the toaster, this draws on one hot to neutral. The hot that it draws on will increase by about 8 amps and the neutral will also.

Now pull out the electric iron...
Plug that into a circuit that feeds off the same hot side. The amperage on that hot side will increase by about 10 amps as will the neutral in addition to the toaster.

Now plug the iron in on a circuit that is fed by the other hot leg. Turn it on and you will see the other hot leg increase by 10 amps the current on the neutral would then be about 2 amps different as the about 8 amps is ballanced by the toaster...

Play around with it some and you'll see the picture after a bit...
Hope that helps you see it...

Here is a pic of what your imbalanced load high resistance neutral connection would look like on an infared inspection..










If you have 3-phase at the shop don't do it there or it will become a lot more complicated...
I don't want to get into that one or, I'd have to tell you to take your silly-assed problem over to DIYer Electrical Chat...:laughing:


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Thats exactly what my electricition friend said. While i don't understand it completely I know how it happens.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Red, you’re a pretty smart guy so I've held my tongue for a while now but I must say......you’re wrong. Anytime a 120v circuit has current flowing through it, the neutral will be path for that current. Even if another 120v circuit is flowing at the same amperage but on the other "phase", it will flow to ground not the other phase. I'm not trying to start a fight here; I just don't want to let misinformation spread.



Redwood said:


> In a 240/120 volt system you have 2 hot leads and a neutral.
> 
> Going across the 2 hots yields 240 volts, using both side equally with no imbalance possible.
> 
> ...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Protech said:


> Red, you’re a pretty smart guy so I've held my tongue for a while now but I must say......you’re wrong. Anytime a 120v circuit has current flowing through it, the neutral will be path for that current. Even if another 120v circuit is flowing at the same amperage but on the other "phase", it will flow to ground not the other phase. I'm not trying to start a fight here; I just don't want to let misinformation spread.


No my friend you are 100% wrong and I would suggest that you visit your c/b panel with a clamp on ampmeter and conduct the experiment that I outlined above...:whistling2:

The evidence will no doubt back up exactly what I have said. :thumbup:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Give me about 30 minutes and I’ll have pictures posted showing the readings.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Uh oh, looks like I'm gonna have to admit defeat on this one.........

Red 1, protech 0

Neutral is all the way on the right.

I shut all the double pole breakers off. If I was right, the 4.58 on the left would have added to the 7.47 on the right to make 12.05 going back to the tranny on the neutral.....but instead they cancelled leaving about 3 amps going out.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It actually makes sense now that I sat down and thought about it for a while. Geuss I'll be right under plumber on the sig now:laughing:


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Funny topic for plumbers huh? Red I do have to ask. How do you know all this? Are you moonlighting as an electrician? hehe My friend said to balance the panel better that i could figure out what circuits are pulling a constant load and move the breaks around to balance it out. Interesting stuff.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Protech said:


> It actually makes sense now that I sat down and thought about it for a while. Geuss I'll be right under plumber on the sig now:laughing:


Nah... Cause we actually had some intellegent debate here...
And some good learning too, on a topic that we should have an awareness of...



Plumber Jim said:


> Funny topic for plumbers huh? Red I do have to ask. How do you know all this? Are you moonlighting as an electrician? hehe My friend said to balance the panel better that i could figure out what circuits are pulling a constant load and move the breaks around to balance it out. Interesting stuff.


No these days all I do is plumb...

However, I spent many years working in industrial plants in the Maint. Dept. as their staff plumber. In that environment, cross trades work is very common and sparky and I did a lot of work together on both of our stuff. Even if one of us was out we were reasonably competent in each others work and help was only a phone call away. 

If you think about it what we deal with is not much different in the troubleshooting logic. Pipe = wire, switch = valve, volts = pressure, gpm = amps, c/b panel = manifold...
It really doesn't much matter if you are working with plumbing, electrical, hydraulics, pneumatics, or whatever...
I even did repairs on CNC Machining Centers and CNC Lathes...

All they are is a glorified water heater with electronic controls like in this thread http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/gas-heater-education-3467/
Yea the computer is bigger and programmable, a lot more sensors and devices on the output, add in some hydraulics and pneumatics but really they both are programable logic controllers (PLC's)

I spent about 25 years doing that and as manufacturing went into decline the times got tough and maint. got lean. People would leave and not be replaced. Days got very long and pay was stagnant. At some point the line was crossed as working in another trade without qualification or supervision and it was time to bail. So I went to work doing nothing but plumbing.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

It's cool you got the chance to cross train like that. You never know when that stuff will come in handy.


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

Thanks for the good spirits guys. It makes these threads alot nicer to read. Thanks redwood and protech.:thumbsup:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Just a link to give an update on this topic...

http://www.ct.gov/dph/lib/dph/environmental_health/private_wells/pdf/Elect_Ground_CAM103107.pdf

The problem has been noted in Australia as well.
http://www.sydneywater.com.au/Publi...mberInformationRiskOfElectricShock.pdf#Page=1


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

I have worked on thousands of water services and never experinced this. Now I am scared to do it. :laughing:


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Protech-Bravo. Takes a big man to admit they're wrong.


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

I too have never heard of this. LOL now I am going to be paranoid to grab a water service valve.

Good thread... thanks for the info Red


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*i know all about this*

Redwood has a good article there..

I have gotten my ass lit up one time on a water service,
I took apart a prv valve after the water meter , kneeling in water at the time on the basement floor...

when I loosend the Union and a gap happenned in the pipes, alll of a sudden all the lights in the house went dark and a real neat little spark arched across that union...


the only thing that saved me was I had a pair of well pump pliers in my hand with the insulated handles... i still got a slight shock but had sense enough to jump back ou tof the water....


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## cajun plumber (Dec 16, 2008)

master plumber said:


> Redwood has a good article there..
> 
> I have gotten my ass lit up one time on a water service,
> I took apart a prv valve after the water meter , kneeling in water at the time on the basement floor...
> ...


I once experienced somthing similar, but it was on the gas lines in the house. BUZZZZZZZ!


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## hepco (Jul 29, 2008)

Redwood said:


> One of these will tell you if the pipe is live...
> 
> http://www.extech.com/instruments/product.asp?catid=31&prodid=495


 
This thing..maybe it works..maybe it don't. Ive been through them all and dont trust any of them. Just a comment on the water lines. It is all correct about how the electricity flows thought the neutral (grounded) and ground (grounding) conductors just as has been stated. But just to comment on some of the cause of you getting shocked. First the ground from the panel on the house needs to be 25 ohms or less to earth ground for an effective service. This rarely accomplished in our area due to the soil conditions. The power company supplied neutral is depended upon to serve this purpose. No matter what the ground whether it be the water pipe, ground rod, any metal line , if the neutral from the power company service fails or the only begins to fail, the circuit finds a better path to ground which is your pipe, and even though it is considered a ground it is now current carrying till it finds that perfect connection to the earth to dicapate the current. Im not very good at explaining but if the service neutral breaks down then the ground is expected to take the current to ground.

Another problem that is very common is a shorted element in the water heater. This in fact is a direct short and can cause the same problem. This can also cause shocking water from the faucet.

Sometimes its as common as bad wiring like using the bare ground in a three wire conductor as a neutral like to a water pump. (Robbing a hot leg and useing the ground to complete the curcuit for a light or heater). This could also be the wiring method for an out building where a three wire service has been pulled.


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## hepco (Jul 29, 2008)

so i have t as soon as i pop the section loose there's this huge white flash and a big pop. i didn't get shocked for some reason but i did get plenty freaked out. somebody had run 110v power in sch 40 iron pipe as conduit. 




paul[/quote]


Running power in sch 40 iron pipe is not very uncommon especially in the older days. In electrical terms its call ridgid metal conduit. They are identical except in most cases the conduit only comes in 10 ft lengths, and the the conduit hasnt been pressure tested. When you digging you wont know the difference. Now a real problem is when people use pvc as conduit to bury wiring. Its common by diy becauses its cheaper than epvc. This is the dangerous thing.


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## HandsomeMike (Feb 8, 2009)

I was told about this when I used to tie-in for irrigation taps. We would take loose the union at the PRV. Anyway I was told if you did not have jumpers or a meter of some sort, to lick the back of your hand and put it to the service. Back of hand was critical sense your hand might contract and make you hold on for the ride. I also tell people I am not prone to siesers and to please hit me with a large board HARD if the whole thing goes on for a while.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*redwood*

here is a link to a study of Phamtom currents in a home




http://web.archive.org/web/20070717.../grounding/electric_shocking_truth_grounding/


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Nice link Mark! :thumbup:


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## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

sorta off the subect but do you tm ( in birmingham) remember when Max Stokes got killed trying to knock a helper off a compressor being lifted up on a friday away from weekend theves? the crane hit a hot over head wire helper tried to push it off max tied to help helper both got fried , that happened about the time I struck out on my on ,We were working at guin then< sad tragic deal but we all learned a valuable lesson


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## solarguy (Aug 16, 2011)

Master Mark said:


> here is a link to a study of Phamtom currents in a home
> http://web.archive.org/web/20070717.../grounding/electric_shocking_truth_grounding/



I am a new member and just read this thread. I wanted to bring it to the top of the forum section so any other new members can read this. It should be pinned to the top for all to see. Great info Master Mark and Redwood.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

solarguy said:


> I am a new member and just read this thread. I wanted to bring it to the top of the forum section so any other new members can read this. *It should be pinned to the top for all to see.*


I agree! Pretty important stuff right there...

Scary when you think about it and realize that the fault doesn't even have to be on the house you are working on, it could be a neighboring home and the easiest path for the current to travel on back to the neutral on the transformer is the pipe you are getting ready to cut... 

Seriously get yourselves one of those testers like the ExTech DV24: Wide Range AC Voltage Detector and test the pipe. Use jumpers just in case... Live to plumb another day....










This testor is a miniature version of the same tester that power company, phone company, and cable company linemen use before they touch a pole...


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

I keep one of those in my tool bag.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Redwood said:


> I agree! Pretty important stuff right there...
> 
> Scary when you think about it and realize that the fault doesn't even have to be on the house you are working on, it could be a neighboring home and the easiest path for the current to travel on back to the neutral on the transformer is the pipe you are getting ready to cut...
> 
> ...


 




Great thread. Thank you Redwood for the useful info, I never knew...

Glad it got bumped or I would have never seen this.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Dittos to what Tommy said


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

*Q!*



stillaround said:


> Dittos to what Tommy said


*I have to get in on this stray current and more danger through stupidty. The job in question was a new service on banked front yard, about 20 ft. setback. We had to dig a 2nd hole in the bank, old piping was offset.Now the fun began plugged in the electric hammer lights in house went dim WTF this old refrigerator in basement must be putting too much load on the line, In the meantime the helper disconnects the jumper, and hacks off the old service. Now hammer runs -- gets next to old gal pipe with the bit and bam a real firworks display occurs. The lights go out. Get the meter in. No 120 but I have 240. WTF again -- called PP&L they went up the pole amd found no neutral on the tri-plex. The house was old an was a ungrounded type. OK with the elecric now for the stupid part. The city replaces its water lines to the curb. They were there 2 days before us and replaced a lead service with copper they used a Ford curb stop [compressiond x FIP] -- then a brass nipple with another Ford compression coupling on the old galvanized, When I cut off the old galvanized line the new curb stop blew off. Note city came back dug open the street [ reason they don't tighten the ring that disforms the copper] Duh!*


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## ap plumbing (Nov 9, 2010)

jumper cables please explain how to use them.. a little slow here sorry ...I have never heard this before and just want to make sure to save my butt from lighting on fire.. you cut in between jumpers right?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ap plumbing said:


> jumper cables please explain how to use them.. a little slow here sorry ...I have never heard this before and just want to make sure to save my butt from lighting on fire.. you cut in between jumpers right?


Yes basically you clamp on the tube on each side of your work area with a wire running in between. The wire will provide a path for the current if there is one when you cut the pipe and in most cases will be a lower resistance that you...

Have you got a decent pair of jumper cables in your truck?
They will do...


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Interesting stuff. I have one of those testers and never thought to use it on a water main. Reminds me of a time when I was drilling through the sill of a house and got shocked by the wire mesh on stucco siding. Something was apparently screwed up with the house wireing.:blink: I told the ho ill come back after sparky figures this out.


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## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

This is a fascinating thread. To be honest, I've never heard of this happening, never even thought of it. It's good to know that this type of condition exists. It might just save my life one day. Or at least my underpants.....:blink:


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## SimplePlumber (Feb 1, 2012)

user823 said:


> We've all been there, replace a bad gate valve on a water service and you get shocked. It can be a little scary.
> What do you guys do? Do you just wing it and not worry about it when you break it apart, wear rubber gloves, jump it? If you wear the gloves, what kind do you like? The reason I ask is lately I've had a couple of close calls. I started bringing the jumper cables in with me when doing them. Does anyone know if someone makes a smaller jumper link kit, or is it better just to make your own and if so what do you use? I hate electricity!!!!!


Great thread, wanted to get it seen again.

About 10 years or so ago I was cutting in a PRV in the main water feed coming into a residential home with an imp cutter...the second the pipe began to seperate a nice flash of electricity happened. Luckily, nothing happened to me since it was a one had operation, but I realized how ugly that could have been.

The jumper cable idea was what I did to continue working also, combined with my super thick, up-to-the-elbow style, rubber gloves, since I wasn't waiting for an electrician to come out before I could restore water to the house. As Redwood had said also, be sure to put the cables on each side of the piece you are cutting out *before* you cut it out.

Be well, stay safe...

Rich


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## KCplumber (Dec 31, 2009)

Are u referring to that $15 tester? DV 24 wide range ac voltage detector or is it a different one? I don't know shoit about electricity but I have seen power at the meter more than once. Very scary


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

KCplumber said:


> Are u referring to that $15 tester? DV 24 wide range ac voltage detector or is it a different one? I don't know shoit about electricity but I have seen power at the meter more than once. Very scary



Yes, I keep one like this in my tool bag.


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## KCplumber (Dec 31, 2009)

I have a similiar tester , but never thought to use it on a water service. Lot of times I'll use a jumper wire when disconnecting a water meter. What about when you have a copper or galv. water service and take off with pex after the meter? U no longer can use the jumper, where is the ground or power going?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Most water services, the ground is now dual clamped. One at the entry line and one up above. 

I believe this is done since they figure a brass valve/PRV isn't a source of continuity.

Glad to see that they've started doing this though.


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## Adamche (Feb 10, 2012)

I have had 230v on a domestic service before , but it scared me when I had 230v on a 170KPA natural gas line. Lucky no kaboom!


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## Pro Plumber (Jun 16, 2010)

Ive had this happen at least twice. I had the home owner turn off power to every thing in the house.


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## Pro Plumber (Jun 16, 2010)

I take maybe the test before cutting is by far the safest way to go.


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Today under a cabinet replacing angle stops, supplies, etc...
Bottom of cabinet was wet and my hands and part of my shirt were very wet. The trap arm and trap were chrome, when my arm brushed it I could feel stinging current coming from it. I touched the angle stops and same feeling. What would cause this? Faulty wiring of garbage disposal?


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

BUMP-----


Repipe of water service today, finished up the underground and went under foundation to tie in to existing water supply and boom I got shocked again second time in my career. I was draining water and after I cut for coupling and I had to use channel locks to finish draining holding on to blue handles the apprentice got shocked too after I asked him to drain rear hose bib. 
Weird how is the system under electric current if its not connected? It hurt to work on pipe I put it back together with channel locks, when I put the fittings on pipe I saw sparks! After I connected the underground to main outside we were able to touch pipe without getting shocked.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Qball415 said:


> BUMP-----
> 
> 
> Repipe of water service today, finished up the underground and went under foundation to tie in to existing water supply and boom I got shocked again second time in my career. I was draining water and after I cut for coupling and I had to use channel locks to finish draining holding on to blue handles the apprentice got shocked too after I asked him to drain rear hose bib.
> Weird how is the system under electric current if its not connected? It hurt to work on pipe I put it back together with channel locks, when I put the fittings on pipe I saw sparks! After I connected the underground to main outside we were able to touch pipe without getting shocked.


Call Sparky! Either that house or one nearby has a neutral fault....


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## jc-htownplumber (Feb 29, 2012)

Here's one for you I was replacing a kitchen faucet and then I touched the disposer and It shocked the hell out of me I get up make sure the damn thing is off. I figured I had tripped the breaker because how it shocked me and the tv went off. So i get down their again just about done with the replacement and again it shoved the hell out of me again. I was glad to be out of their


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## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

Usally when servicing the main valve you will see the copper ground bonding wire tie in directly before penetrating the wall, if you see this and look at it and visually inspect it, and see that it is connected and looks in good condition and the other side of it is connected then cut away.
When you do not see any bonding wire that you will want to be care full. You can do 1 of 3 things. install your own bonding wire the only 100% effective way to protect your self, the 2nd way is to shut of the power to the building witch I do sometime when the house looks like a HO DIY special. 3rd is to cut and have faith. good luck with the least one.

Oh yah one time I was working in the middle of a house in the basement and cut the cold water pipe and out went the electric in the bathroom. After about 2 hours of arguing with the contractor that I would not turn on the power and told the home owners as a result of extreamly scary electrical work, I shut off the power to their house and was not leaving untill a licensed electrician showed up. They argued and this and that but if some ones kid died that night because i let them shower they would have linched me. 

I still to this day can not belive what I saw at that house. Then everybody wanted to leave it be... In what world is it ok to have the lights go out when you cut the plumbing. Thats quite a switch.


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## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

Pro Plumber said:


> I take maybe the test before cutting is by far the safest way to go.


This is one of those things where when you need it if you didnt take precautions you are dead. so testing, bonding, killing the power all extremely appropriate but truly situationial awareness is the most important.

eyes on the back of your head type thing... watching that crazy apprentice that is allways trying to get himself hurt.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Love revisiting year old threads...


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

I agree, Plumberman. I have found out about plumbing being electrified the hard way, too. I replaced a copper water service and got shocked when I cut it in half. Found out it lost its neutral and our elec dept made $4k on a new ground line to the house and some other elec work. I had been taught to use jumper cables and was always too lazy. I had been shocked a few times but never too bad. After reading this thread I will always use jumper cables. Why chance it?


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Ok. I've never seen this. But I'm not on service much. What makes the pipe have a current ?


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Read the first few pages of this thread. Its kinda complicated. And Redwood is also an electrician. He breaks it down quite well and includes diagrams cuz Lord knows I couldn't explain it.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Ok. So if some old house has the ground for the electric system attached to the cold feed for the water heater and the ground runs threw all the copper piping to the buried pipe. Then all the copper is cut out and replaced with pex that leaves the electric with out a ground ? The wire clamped at the water heater on the cold is the ground for the electric ? Or is it to ground the water pipeing


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Ok. So if some old house has the ground for the electric system attached to the cold feed for the water heater and the ground runs threw all the copper piping to the buried pipe. Then all the copper is cut out and replaced with pex that leaves the electric with out a ground ? The wire clamped at the water heater on the cold is the ground for the electric ? Or is it to ground the water pipeing


Exactly. The plumbing is grounded or really its supposed to be bonded to the electrical system. If lightening hits, just like water, it takes the path of least resistance so if the gas piping or plumbing is electrified (assuming its metal piping) it supposed to be bonded so it will flow through to the electrical ground rod via the plumbing thru the bonding. I have seen a house burn down because lightening hit it and blew the gas pipes up due to no bonding. There are continuing ed classes on bonding plumbing. Pretty important stuff. When a house loses its electrical neutral, it can electrify the plumbing or gas. I don't know if you have all Pex plumbing if you have to do anything. I don't think the same rules apply when its all plastic. But for gas you have special clamps for CSST pipe being its metal. And it is required per code to always bond gas pipes.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Got a house here with the electric grounding to the ploy pipe connected to well.. explained customer about it and he said if the county inspector passed it so its okay.. thuds...


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Got a house here with the electric grounding to the ploy pipe connected to well.. explained customer about it and he said if the county inspector passed it so its okay.. thuds...


Wow. I guess plastic is a good conductor of electricity. I saw CPVC at a water heater piping grounded once. I had a photo but erased it.


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

I went to a water service replacement a while back to bid it busted out the transmitter hooked it to the pipe and went and got my seektech locator turned it on on my way back to the house and it started reading, hmmm just started tracing the line from the meter to the house get back to the house and I look over and I never turned the transmitter on! I did and it started doing it's alarm thing cause it senses power on what it is connected to. Then just for kicks I started tracing the city line, found every neighbors line almost too except the ones who must have had PE or Pex lines put in. I traced for 2 blocks in both directions then stopped and called the city to report it. I never found out what was going on I figured somebody was growing weed and was stealing power and had made bad connections I don't know, I grounded the meter to the earth and replaced the guys line a week later. I know it was not his house that was the cause.


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## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

Had a lady with a thick accent call me for what I thought was going to be an easy toilet fix. As i go into the bathroom with my auger, I notice jumper cables running from the 2 handle shower valve to the drain. When i asked, she said it was the only vay (her accent) she could shower without getting a shock. I found a Bad element. Which I replaced. Then referred a competent sparky to get her panel grounded. You want to talk about a raving fan. After all that, she could now use her toilet and wash herself.


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## CaberTosser (Mar 7, 2013)

Redwood said:


> The only sure way is to put a jumper across where you are making the cut.
> The connection has to be an easier path for the current than through your body.
> 
> Another safety tip is the one hand rule that is used by people working on and testing live electrical circuits.
> ...


 This is exactly what my JM plumber father told me, as told to him by my Scottish Great Grandfather who was an electrician before he even went to fight in WWI.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Exactly. The plumbing is grounded or really its supposed to be bonded to the electrical system. If lightening hits, just like water, it takes the path of least resistance so if the gas piping or plumbing is electrified (assuming its metal piping) it supposed to be bonded so it will flow through to the electrical ground rod via the plumbing thru the bonding. I have seen a house burn down because lightening hit it and blew the gas pipes up due to no bonding. There are continuing ed classes on bonding plumbing. Pretty important stuff. When a house loses its electrical neutral, it can electrify the plumbing or gas. I don't know if you have all Pex plumbing if you have to do anything. I don't think the same rules apply when its all plastic. But for gas you have special clamps for CSST pipe being its metal. And it is required per code to always bond gas pipes.



Nope,,, The NEC states where likely to become energized. Since the gas piping is connected to a gas valve, which is bonded at the furnace ( although with #12 for the most part) it is bonded through the equipment bond. The water service can be argued it has no bond since di-electric unions are at the heater. When we require a bond in our area for water service (copper only), you also need to bond across the hot & cold lines, since they are separated at the water heater. All becomes irrelevant with any plastic water lines,although you would bond at the water service point of entry (in all cases ) since if the system "faults" it faults at the entry point and NOT through the whole water system.

Yes all stainless gas piping (yellow) must be bonded per manufactures instructions ( a #6 bare bond) to any place on the gas piping, not necessarily at the fitting, again whatever he manufacture states.

The newer "lighting arrest" flex gas piping does not need to be bonded. It has been designed to not require nay additional bonding.

Wait till you do work around swimming pools, bonding goes nuts.


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## love2surf927 (Dec 22, 2011)

CaberTosser said:


> This is exactly what my JM plumber father told me, as told to him by my Scottish Great Grandfather who was an electrician before he even went to fight in WWI.


To even one up that I was taught by a sparky to make a c with thumb and index finger that way it goes up one finger and out the other.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

GAN said:


> Nope,,, The NEC states where likely to become energized. Since the gas piping is connected to a gas valve, which is bonded at the furnace ( although with #12 for the most part) it is bonded through the equipment bond. The water service can be argued it has no bond since di-electric unions are at the heater. When we require a bond in our area for water service (copper only), you also need to bond across the hot & cold lines, since they are separated at the water heater. All becomes irrelevant with any plastic water lines,although you would bond at the water service point of entry (in all cases ) since if the system "faults" it faults at the entry point and NOT through the whole water system.
> 
> Yes all stainless gas piping (yellow) must be bonded per manufactures instructions ( a #6 bare bond) to any place on the gas piping, not necessarily at the fitting, again whatever he manufacture states.
> 
> ...


Well, alright. Learned something new. I haven't taken the class yet but the way I explained it is how it was explained to me in a nutshell. Thanks for the info.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

I did an airport control tower. Bonding to every thing. Cast copper steel Copper mesh under the sub floor in computer rooms. Lots of bare copper. Big stuff too.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Ok. So if some old house has the ground for the electric system attached to the cold feed for the water heater and the ground runs threw all the copper piping to the buried pipe. Then all the copper is cut out and replaced with pex that leaves the electric with out a ground ? The wire clamped at the water heater on the cold is the ground for the electric ? Or is it to ground the water pipeing


I just re-read your post here and I clearly misunderstood it originally. Not sure what I was drinking that night. It's a good question. I have seen plenty of old country homes where the electrical is grounded to the plumbing. You obviously understand bonding better than I do, Tex.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

rajucb12 said:


> Thanks for share it....


You need to post a full intro before you get jumped on... ur website contains one of the most fakery plumbing ads..


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> You need to post a full intro before you get jumped on... ur website contains one of the most fakery plumbing ads..


Wonder if this is another clearing house????

Google "Street View" is wonderful, they show nothing at this location but trailer storage & a train yard.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Elvis has departed.


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## Ptturner91 (Oct 13, 2012)

They should really teach this to apprentices, I've done so many water service repairs and never once heard of this


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