# How "Easy" Do you want the Profession of Plumbing to Become?



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

There's a loaded question that has a million meanings, and given the thread starter's point of view, I'm sure it doesn't need much explanation.



Should we all think we're plumbers since we can push-fit, crimp, glue-connect everything that we don't need a license anymore? 


Remember, someone has designed plumbing where DIY'rs can easily do our job now, and how can you complain when they do it at this point? It literally is at the point now where we might just be in the same category as drywallers, painters. Not many tools needed.


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## SPH (Nov 4, 2008)

i think you just like starting fights...

Being a 'professional' depends 100% on yourself, and how you present yourself and perform your trade.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

SPH said:


> i think you just like starting fights...
> 
> Being a 'professional' depends 100% on yourself, and how you present yourself and perform your trade.


 


Now now, let's not be hastey. 


Please tell me why tomorrow when I install a RO system that all I need is a screwdriver, drill bit, and a crescent wrench. 

That system underneath that sink will be sloppy looking just like every one of them is made to be.


I can be a professional paper thrower for the local newspaper, but I'm performing my trade just like the next guy. 


Truth is, everything I've stated is true, it's not fiction. 


Years ago homeowners didn't set up threading tools and cut galvanized water lines for themselves, fix their water lines.

Now, they sharkbite and run with their legal garden hose. :no:


I like plumbing when it's hard, like my arteries to my heart. *I like it when less people can do my job. *


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Damn, I was hoping this was about how to line up and drill perfect holes in masonry or an easier way to do superman work. ya know, in an attic up against the roof pitch stuffed inbetween the damn roofers nails and dirty fiberglass insulation sweating that 90 on above the plate. For what it's worth, I charge an obsurd amount of money to do that. i didn't when I first got on my own, but now...I know how to do it...time to cash in on it. 

Get this....I bid a tankless and as I show up I see another guy leaving. i know the guy and he buys shark bites by the case...no ***** I seen him carrying them out.

So I go look at the place...give my 02 and type up a bid. This is the funny part. under the scope of work section i make a little side note giving very brief detail of push on connectors and how box stores sell them and they are legal in CA for in wall use. Long story short i told the client that the guy b4 me won't solder anymore and only uses SB...which is 100% truth. Sent it off that night, checked email in the morning...and I got it. But I did include in a term "I will in under no circumstances use any kind of push on connecting device...blah blah..."

It was a first for me to mention anything like this in a bid...I have a feeling I may stick with it.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

That's a good logic to follow as well.


Everything I'm doing on this RO system is indeed a lowered pressure, like 40 pounds but I can't stand that everything is so eaaaaaazy peeaaaaazy japaneeezy under the sink. 


Red tube goes here
Blue tube goes there
Yellow tube goes there
Black tube has to go there

Turn the water on, I gotta run! 


Does everyone know why the only reason RO systems are not installed by the homeowner most times? They don't know or want to drill that crucial first step, the hole in the sink for the faucet.

Mine tomorrow is on a high end corian top. I figure I'm going to have to buy one of those carbide round hole saw bits to get through corian. I got a step drill bit but it'll dull it completely. 

If that hole already existed? Homeowner would be putting this in, not me. That's why the system is already there. 


Look at the new stainless steel flex supply line....my grandma could replace her toilet supply with the ease of that installation practice. At least with the chrome risers, you had to know which end to connect first. ????


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## trick1 (Sep 18, 2008)

While it is true that all of these newer materials are easy to install, we all know that the correct sizing calculations for gpm, velocity, and pressure (in the case of pex) is not something a homeowner cares about.

It's also said that PVC is just gluing pipes together. That's all well and good, but what about DFU loads, venting principles and correct termination and too many other things to mention.

My long drawn out point is that we as professionals have to design,engineer, install and maintain these systems, regardless of materials. All while making it into a work of art.

Find a drywaller that says that!!!


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

ou all know my feelings here. However, no matter how easy the actual installation gets the underlying principals still apply.


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

I see protectionism as grossly immoral and anti-freedom. It IS anti-freedom. That cannot be honestly denied. Whether you think anti-freedom is immoral or not is up to you but I know where I stand on it.

Other than that, carry on.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Its going to become a NON license thing in the future, well there will be a "corporation" that holds the license and then 20k+ workers....

If you think I am bsing you, take a look around at HOW MANY small shops are being bought up by mr rooters and franchises,

Unless all you *OLD MEN PLUMBERS* start being NICE to the young , its all over....

Don't believe me?

Bookmark this thread and bump it in 5 years, 

I know many people think I am just some stupid dude, But I am obsessed with this industry and have TONS of data on it,

The PROBLEM:

no seniors are trying to recruit and train young guys and that's FORCING big companies to make things like read and blue pex......DUH......

You better start training and LICENSING your guys ALL of them before Mr rooter and the boys take over.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

We already got what you're saying. This big jobs down in Lexington and Louisville?

They hire a bunch of illegals to come in and "Plumb" yes plumb these buildings with pex piping like they are running wire, they get it done in super speed along with that flexible gas piping that's in the same category. SPEED


40 years ago the average joe did not go out and work on their plumbing, not to the extent they do today. That's a fact because they didn't have what exists in rubber couplings, push together piping systems.

Look at my license in Ohio; totally useless, has no value at this point because everyone sits under one license, contractor's license. You're grouped into all the trades and nobody is special. I like being special.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Yup, here to and in most places....

WHY do you think so many PLUMBERS are out of work?

The second to last shop I worked in employeed 10+ "illegals" and had them running pvc all day long at $75 a day and two guys would rough all the pvs from basement to attic in a 3bath in one day.

YUP all for $150........aND YEA he had a license,........doent mean he has to do the work.......

If the failed any inspection who cares, they would send the guy bak, I mean they were only paying them to run pvc not plumb.

And that the thing, if you stay current with trade magazones you'll see the trends as well.

Most A/C units now are being shipped with the freon in them....yup......just release a valve and the system is charged.......makes it so you dont need that HVAC guy.

If you think this will not become an automated industry just look around at all your buddies here on the forums and in real life and ask them where their job is.....

Yea, keep installing pex, keep not showing the young guys........





Roast Duck said:


> We already got what you're saying. This big jobs down in Lexington and Louisville?
> 
> They hire a bunch of illegals to come in and "Plumb" yes plumb these buildings with pex piping like they are running wire, they get it done in super speed along with that flexible gas piping that's in the same category. SPEED
> 
> ...


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## Dr Steevil (Jan 25, 2009)

God bless you *******. I was at a Home Depot yesterday (not for plumbing stuff) and just happened to be walking down the plumbing aisle (to see if indeed they had pulled Zurn PEX - and yes they did, now have QESTPEX! - ACK!) At any rate, there was the ever helpful employee explaining to an older couple about the wonderful Shark Bite product that they can use to fix their problem. Man, I wanted SO BAD to butt in and SAY SOMETHING! Now that I've had awhile to think about it, I probably should have.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Come remodel a co-op in a Chicago high rise and you will learn that skilled tradesmen are still needed, no glue or crimping tools required, but you will need a complete set of irons and a reamer.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> Come remodel a co-op in a Chicago high rise and you will learn that skilled tradesmen are still needed, no glue or crimping tools required, but you will need a complete set of irons and a reamer.



right on !!!!


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## muck (Oct 10, 2008)

roast you "are" special


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## pzmember (Sep 20, 2008)

i may have enjoyed happy hour a bit too much tonight, but here it goes.
i don't give a rats ass how many time life books the average homeowner owns. and i don't care how many episodes of sweat equity get aired. and i surely don't fear the onslaught of john doe handyman. ive put my time in, and i have more lessons to learn. but i have spent too much of my life learning my vocation to worry if john q. dingleberry homeowner can go to blowes and buy a pex tool. yeah some of the tech has made some of the processes user friendly. but when push comes to shove, i'll be there. when the building valve won't shut off i'll be there. every time the average homeowner see's an episode of flip that house and gets geared up, and sticks thier uneducated foot in the preverbial bear trap, i'll be there. diy i hope is a fad. i have seen too much of it go south. we have a responsibity to the public to " protect the health of the nation". i try not to take too many things in life to heart. but that one i'll fight for.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

mjcoleman said:


> i may have enjoyed happy hour a bit too much tonight, but here it goes.
> i don't give a rats ass how many time life books the average homeowner owns. and i don't care how many episodes of sweat equity get aired. and i surely don't fear the onslaught of john doe handyman. ive put my time in, and i have more lessons to learn. but i have spent too much of my life learning my vocation to worry if john q. dingleberry homeowner can go to blowes and buy a pex tool. yeah some of the tech has made some of the processes user friendly. but when push comes to shove, i'll be there. when the building valve won't shut off i'll be there. every time the average homeowner see's an episode of flip that house and gets geared up, and sticks thier uneducated foot in the preverbial bear trap, i'll be there. diy i hope is a fad. i have seen too much of it go south. we have a responsibity to the public to " protect the health of the nation". i try not to take too many things in life to heart. but that one i'll fight for.


I will drink to that !!!!

God Bless you man!!!


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## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

[


> quote=*******;27307]
> If you think I am bsing you, take a look around at HOW MANY small shops are being bought up by mr rooters and franchises,


Some of the original owners are buying them back up after the franchises screw it up. It was in PM Magazine about 6 mos. ago.



> Unless all you *OLD MEN PLUMBERS* start being NICE to the young , its all over....


In what way 'be nice.' Are todays young anymore fragile than the plumber apprentice of yesteryear?



> The PROBLEM: no seniors are trying to recruit and train young guys


Bullsh*t! Young guys want to work in the A/C all day playing with computers and make six figures a year. It's not the recruitment, most young don't want to work in the trades.



> and that's FORCING big companies to make things like read and blue pex......DUH......


I agree. Labor shortage has created the need for simpler installations.



> You better start training and LICENSING your guys ALL of them before Mr rooter and the boys take over.


[/QUOTE]

Funny you mention Mr. Rooter, they have called our office no less than 20 times in the past 60 days and sent a letter. After asking to be put on the do not call list, another Mr. Rooter calls and I let him have it. I wouldn't be a Mr. Rooter if you paid me. Click! Another franchise ARS, they have at least 10-15 vans sitting idle everyday parked along the side of their building.

Have faith ******* - the old timers are learning the new tricks. Even my husband is willing to learn touchy/feely sales techniques to increase the bottom line. He knows when to give a pat on the back and when a swift kick in the pants is needed. Our guys respect him. Don't ever count those who came before you out - they are tough (and not all are hardheaded)!


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

No, I am not counted anyone out , but contrary to popular belief I really did work in many shops for over 17 years, and met some well respected people, and I really do have a clue, but acting the way I do and then watching grown men take aim at me and call me names is more amusing......and more fun, and starts better conversations with all these shy folks that usually troll till I come around 

No young men are not more fragile nor was I when I was a kid, but when a foreman told me "you better cut that next pipe faster and straighter or I am going to shove it up your as s " then yea.

Listen, I know many people here, on Ridgid , just think I am some young moron that "fell out of the trade", fine, I could careless, what anyone thinks, But Let me tell you, I have been watching the industry falling apart day by day........thats the end result, and its just to bad..........

If you want we can compare data just to prove points...but we all know inside that this industry is NOT what it used to be , its overrun by laziness and cooperate greed.


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## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

I don't doubt your experience or love of the industry. You want change and you want it yesterday. So do a lot of us.

However, the way you (not literally you!) deal with people is different based on their age and experience.

Ex.: I'm guessing you're close to 35. You can hang with the 20 something crowd, but the 21 year old thinks your trying to hard to be cool.

The 30-40 crowd catch all your drifts and they are there with you dude.

The 50-60 crowd - they aren't necessarily appreciating the dude and buddy thing. They are a little put off. 

If you are addressing the 40+ crowd and being pushy, this can be taken as a sign of disrespect. This group will push back and push back hard. If they are given respect, in time they will respect back. This generation believes elders are given respect and young people earn it.

Right now, you do know a lot. You track numbers, trends, read a lot etc.; however, you are young and will look back and realize you don't know as much as you thought you did. Every year, people like you get wiser and wiser. And one day you will be a wise older man. No short cuts, it takes years to acquire.

You have posted you have worked for some real SOBs. Not all old timers are this way. Many will give an apprentice the shirt off his back.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Plumbcrazy said:


> I don't doubt your experience or love of the industry. You want change and you want it yesterday. So do a lot of us.
> 
> However, the way you (not literally you!) deal with people is different based on their age and experience.
> 
> ...


 
That could not have been said any better. Figures a woman to do it......

And yes, apprentices today aren't worth a crap. Too busy ironing the bill of their ball cap totally flat.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Plumbcrazy said:


> I don't doubt your experience or love of the industry. You want change and you want it yesterday. So do a lot of us.


Agreed


Plumbcrazy said:


> However, the way you (not literally you!) deal with people is different based on their age and experience.


Yes, very true



Plumbcrazy said:


> Ex.: I'm guessing you're close to 35. You can hang with the 20 something crowd, but the 21 year old thinks your trying to hard to be cool.


Yes, I am exactly thirty five and have 6 kids one whom is disabled, , so my days of "trying to be cool" are long over, I can assure you, my oldest boy will be 13 this year, and I have no need for being cool. I just do that naturally.....Kidding kidding :laughing:



Plumbcrazy said:


> The 30-40 crowd catch all your drifts and they are there with you dude.
> 
> agreed





Plumbcrazy said:


> The 50-60 crowd - they aren't necessarily appreciating the dude and buddy thing. They are a little put off.



Agreed, but how do I know who is who when people have no pictures or don't tell me there age?

If someone , anyone here ,and a PURE example of this was killertoilertspider last week.

He was upset with my behavior towards him and he hinted in many threads that he wanted more respect and in turn I give him the respect he asked for and publicly apologized and all.

Now, If I knew who was 50, who was a leader, who had a degree and so on or even if they said "Hey wet head please show me more respect", I certainly would, BUT when we all act like a bunch of animals and attack each other with insults, its honestly hard to judge the real age and character of someone, so if some one is reading this and you want me to me not call you dude, or show your more respect, here is your chance, tell me and your wish is my command and I will be more respectful, but then I expect the same in the next debate / thread.





Plumbcrazy said:


> If you are addressing the 40+ crowd and being pushy, this can be taken as a sign of disrespect. This group will push back and push back hard. If they are given respect, in time they will respect back. This generation believes elders are given respect and young people earn it.


agreed and see the last response above



Plumbcrazy said:


> Right now, you do know a lot. You track numbers, trends, read a lot etc.; however, you are young and will look back and realize you don't know as much as you thought you did. Every year, people like you get wiser and wiser. And one day you will be a wise older man. No short cuts, it takes years to acquire.


Oh yea, Plumbcrazy, failure is the root of success, your 110% right, in fact I can think of things I did an hour ago that I should not have, but we all make mistakes, the point is that we need to learn from them then grow.



Plumbcrazy said:


> You have posted you have worked for some real SOBs. Not all old timers are this way. Many will give an apprentice the shirt off his back.


Oh, I agree, I have also worked for some sweetheart old timers that called me "joey" "hey joey, do this" good times good times.

But there is more not nice then nice, like you said , I track data and trends, I have statics through the roof but thats besides the point


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## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

> Agreed, but how do I know who is who when people have no pictures or don't tell me there age?


Take NHMaster - He is old school plumber. Lots of pride and respects the trade. I wouldn't tell him copper is crap, PEX me Baby! For the record, I don't care for PEX.

Service Guy - I know he has a baby, likes fine wine, and uses a flat rate system. I wouldn't tell him to lower his rates to get business.

Illinois Plumber - I wouldn't tell him the Union sucks. He's union and it's working for him.

I could debate copper vs. PEX. Knowing NHMaster has paid his dues, I would be very careful in stating my opinion because I don't have his experience.

I could debate lower prices with Service Guy and can push harder because he is closer in age. He and I have batted things back and forth before, so he knows I am trying to help.

Illinois - If I thought the union sucked, knowing he likes it, I would try and understand why it means so much to him. I respect him, so if he finds the union worthwhile, I should listen and learn from what he has to say. 



> killertoilertspider last week. He was upset with my behavior towards him and he hinted in many threads that he wanted more respect and in turn I give him the respect he asked for and publicly apologized and all.


Can't speak for KTS, but my opinion. KTS is an intelligent plumber who is no BS and does not seek attention. Looks like a man's man. The public apology was over the top. KTS would have preferred a PM rather than a display.



> BUT when we all act like a bunch of animals and attack each other with insults, its honestly hard to judge the real age and character of someone,


So, it gets heated sometimes. We all seem to make up and move on. Most of us are just as passionate about what we believe as you are about what you believe.



> Plumbcrazy, failure is the root of success, your 110% right, in fact I can think of things I did an hour ago that I should not have, but we all make mistakes, the point is that we need to learn from them then grow.


:thumbsup: 




> Oh, I agree, I have also worked for some sweetheart old timers that called me "joey" "hey joey, do this" good times good times.


Our one plumber was our 'red headed stepchild' It was said with affection.

As for statistics -they can be manipulated. Believe what you witness with your eyes, not what someone writes or tells you. Seems like everytime I see statistics there is an agenda attached.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

I was raised and painfully relearned as a yound adult this: In order to get respect, I need to give respect. 

It's sort of the opposite of the saying...guys that talk as if they know it all know nothing. Know it all's get little respect...at least from me...hence my smart ass reply to the pex guru thread. But that's just me.

Ya gotta do two things to get respect from a guy like me'
1) give me respect.
2) be older than me.

If you're older than me I will respect you until you screw it up (I don't mean you personally). 

This philosophy came to light in my mid 20's.
I was getting pissed that kids younger than me had no respect for me. Than the light bulb went off. I thought to mysef what must older people think about me?

Example....at the checkout at Target with my oldest daughter, we were getting Valentines Day cards (I hate V day) and a few other things. The little old lady behind the counter asked if I found everything ok, I promptly replied "Yes ma`am, thank you".

My kid looked up at me with a strange face. We had a nice chat about that on the drive home. Point in case.....maybe that old lady is a retired doctor or educator...maybe she has been a drug addict all her life and is just now able to hold a job...who knows? But it doesn't matter one bit to me. She has been here longer therefor by my laws she earned the respect.....of course...until she screws it up. .02


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

There is a real problem in the industry today. There are too many guys who work as drain cleaners for a while then they get called a tech by some big company that has a one in ten ratio of real plumbers and dumb labor. I have seen it too many times where the "tech" comes out and then has to call the "supervisor" out to help him. These guys are not learning much about plumbing but they are getting their hours in so they can be turned out. If anyone saw the recent survey Ridgid did of High School students you will see most of them want to get into computers. We are headed for a real shortage in trained tradesman and there will be no one to fill the positions. Whenever possible I try to help guys younger than me to learn what will become a lost art. I encourage all of you to get active with your Code groups and be involved in the process.

Mark


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## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

If anybody is wondering, I am 85 years old. Probably the oldest on the forum, so please fall in line and respect me! :laughing:

In all seriousness, I agree with the above posts.

Sorry Roast D - just realized serious jacking has taken place in your thread


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Plumbing trade is still relatively new at least with running hot/cold water, working sewers, etc., on a large scale basis. We have houses here built in 1909 that didn't have house sewers.

Many people of all generations wouldn't consider doing plumbing if it was the last job in the world. Others aren't physically capable or smart enough. Others are too dishonest for a trade.

The illegals are our biggest problem. I won't support any company that uses them and I do turn them in.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> Whenever possible I try to help guys younger than me to learn what will become a lost art. I encourage all of you to get active with your Code groups and be involved in the process.
> 
> Mark



And this is TRUE, and I will tell you that Mark is a good man, See when me and Mark had a few threads going we exchanged some ideas / words etc.

Then One day, Mark said to me "Joey lets talk" and we had a nice 2 hour phone chat and I learned who Mark was and now I have the "UT most" respect for Mark and I can tell you that he is a 1st class plumber, business owner and an all around great guy.

Mark "reached out" to me and showed me the light,....

I have also had many other phone conversations with other great people like Jerry Mac, Serviceguy, Rockstarplumber, Bill , Cal, and others and after we spoke I realized how important it was for me to respect them and now I do .

So yea, I am sorry if I piss some people off but pm me your number and lets talk,.....

I have no problem, "bowing down" to the seniors and the ones who are wise, BUT you need to show me your wise, just coming back at me in a forum threads doesn't prove you care about this industry or even me,

Anyone who wants to chat just pm me your phone number and we can chat, and I will respect you,

So lets talk,


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Tankless said:


> I was raised and painfully relearned as a yound adult this: In order to get respect, I need to give respect....


There's one thing I took away from my travels down south and that's respect. Show disrespect in SoCal and you will pay, one way or another. I got scars to prove it.

That's not to say I'm not a badass. Most plumbers have that odd mixture or intelligence and extremism...the ones who make it out of apprenticeship, anyway....:laughing:


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Plumber said:


> Most plumbers have that odd mixture of intelligence and extremism...the ones who make it out of apprenticeship, anyway....:laughing:



Now this is something I 110% agree with


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> There is a real problem in the industry today. There are too many guys who work as drain cleaners for a while then they get called a tech by some big company that has a one in ten ratio of real plumbers and dumb labor. I have seen it too many times where the "tech" comes out and then has to call the "supervisor" out to help him. These guys are not learning much about plumbing but they are getting their hours in so they can be turned out. If anyone saw the recent survey Ridgid did of High School students you will see most of them want to get into computers. We are headed for a real shortage in trained tradesman and there will be no one to fill the positions. Whenever possible I try to help guys younger than me to learn what will become a lost art. I encourage all of you to get active with your Code groups and be involved in the process.
> 
> Mark


This is very true, the shrinking of industry in this country is paralelled by the shrinking blue collar working class, to the point where kids today do not want to work with their hands, they think to do so shows a lack of intelligence. It doesn't matter that they are dead wrong, because perception is reality, if they think blue collar work is undignified, it is.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Back on topic. Speed Kills. I see a couple trends in the profession and the industry that I find disturbing. One is the need for speed and the other is blind acceptance for new products. Granted when I started out there was not the kind of product development we see today nor were the materials and manufacturing processes as sophisticated. That aside, I think the younger generation is willing to jump into the pool without testing the water first. Whether or not that is an age thing or a result of advertising and marketing I can not say. Many of us that have been around awhile have seen the miracal products come and go. I hat to get caught up in new versus old debate because I for one would never want to go back to bell and spigot DWV piping though I could if I had too. So I tend to be a bit more cautious befor I get involved in new products or processes. As for the speed thing, that has always kind of bugged me. I hear journeymen bragging all the time that they can rough a house in two days. Great, so what are you going to do tomorrow? If you crunch the numbers, speed does not always translate into profit. I know time is money and to a great extent you can't afford to have a couple guys spend three weeks roughing the house either, but speed is not everything. Pex, PVC new tools and methods have greatly increased our job speed but at some point I think you need to be more concerned with the craft than with the speed. I would rather hear a journeyman say he took 4 days and everything was perfect and passed inspection.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> This is very true, the shrinking of industry in this country is paralelled by the shrinking blue collar working class, to the point where kids today do not want to work with their hands, they think to do so shows a lack of intelligence. It doesn't matter that they are dead wrong, because perception is reality, if they think blue collar work is undignified, it is.



Agreed, and many plumber DONT want there kids to plumb, I started a thread on Ridgidforum.com a while back to only find that most of the plumbers there wanted to have there kids do something else.


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> As for the speed thing, that has always kind of bugged me. I hear journeymen bragging all the time that they can rough a house in two days.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> I would rather hear a journeyman say he took 4 days and everything was perfect and passed inspection.


I am right with you on this one.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Back on topic. Speed Kills. I see a couple trends in the profession and the industry that I find disturbing. One is the need for speed and the other is blind acceptance for new products. Granted when I started out there was not the kind of product development we see today nor were the materials and manufacturing processes as sophisticated. That aside, I think the younger generation is willing to jump into the pool without testing the water first. Whether or not that is an age thing or a result of advertising and marketing I can not say. Many of us that have been around awhile have seen the miracal products come and go. I hat to get caught up in new versus old debate because I for one would never want to go back to bell and spigot DWV piping though I could if I had too. So I tend to be a bit more cautious befor I get involved in new products or processes. As for the speed thing, that has always kind of bugged me. I hear journeymen bragging all the time that they can rough a house in two days. Great, so what are you going to do tomorrow? If you crunch the numbers, speed does not always translate into profit. I know time is money and to a great extent you can't afford to have a couple guys spend three weeks roughing the house either, but speed is not everything. Pex, PVC new tools and methods have greatly increased our job speed but at some point I think you need to be more concerned with the craft than with the speed. I would rather hear a journeyman say he took 4 days and everything was perfect and passed inspection.


So you're saying we should go slow and use outdated materials?:no:
Speed comes with experience. If you're good at what you do you will be able to do it quickly with perfection. As far as our "craft", PEX is part of our craft.:yes:
The day is coming very soon, you will have to choose to either accept it or get out, not a prediction, it's a fact, it's already here.:yes:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I don't believe I said anything at all about using "out dated" materials. What I did say is that new materials and methods have changed the way we work. 
I don't know how much chance you get to inspect other plumbers work and I understand that because you are no doubt busy doing your own. I however do get to see a whole lot of plumbing and heating installations and I am not happy with the majority of what I see. Indeed pex can be installed neatly but it rarely is. The general feeling is that since it's mostly burried and out of sigh, who gives a damn. But the sloppy work is by no means limited to pex. A good deal of the same "Can't see it from my house" mentality also applies to pvc (particualry underslab) and copper as well. I think most of the sloppy work is due to the "speed" factor but it may just be lack of education or a F-it attitude. Either way the profession can not stand the lowering of standards for quality work. I really don't care what you install, just make sure you do it right and it looks good.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I want it just easy enough that the tire kickers will do it themselves all screwed up of course without bothering me...


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

******* said:


> Agreed, and many plumber DONT want there kids to plumb, I started a thread on Ridgidforum.com a while back to only find that most of the plumbers there wanted to have there kids do something else.


What is wrong with wanting your kids to achieve higher goals than you did? I'm proud of my trade, but when I left HS it was not into an apprenticeship, but rather a full ride college scholarship that I managed to screw up in short order. I would prefer my son have the chance to attend college that I screwed myself out of, an education is something that once earned cannot be taken away.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Have any idea how many kids I see every damn day of the week tossing away an education? Out of a class of 18, I generally figure that four maybe five will actually do the work and get a decent grade. The rest just don't give a crap and half of them don't care enough to even show up. There is nothing in this entire world as valuable as knowledge. Knowledge is like being in a room with a billion doors, each door is open and each one of them leads to a billion other doors. When you close even one of those doors that path may very well be gone forever. The state of education in this country is sad.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

Killertoiletspider said:


> What is wrong with wanting your kids to achieve higher goals than you did? I'm proud of my trade, but when I left HS it was not into an apprenticeship, but rather a full ride college scholarship that I managed to screw up in short order. I would prefer my son have the chance to attend college that I screwed myself out of, an education is something that once earned cannot be taken away.


I never said that anything was wrong with a degree, in fact both of my parents do.

I said that many plumbers didnt want there kids plumbing at all , they just wanted them to have a degree,.....does that make sense....sometimes, I have trouble expressing what I mean


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Have any idea how many kids I see every damn day of the week tossing away an education? Out of a class of 18, I generally figure that four maybe five will actually do the work and get a decent grade. The rest just don't give a crap and half of them don't care enough to even show up. There is nothing in this entire world as valuable as knowledge. Knowledge is like being in a room with a billion doors, each door is open and each one of them leads to a billion other doors. When you close even one of those doors that path may very well be gone forever. The state of education in this country is sad.



Can I ask what you teach?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

The topic of my class is Sit down and shut up! 

I teach CTE Plumbing and HVAC to high schools juniors and seniors as well as an introductory plumbing and small engine tech to all 4 years. I also teach the 1st and 2nd year state apprentice plumbing class, OSHA safety training and State plumbing license recertification seminars as well as several seminars on hydronic and steam heating for NAOSHM. Should also be doing oil burners for NORA pretty soon if they can get their crap together. However, up untill 5 years ago I was a working plumber and I still own a plumbing company though my brother and son pretty much run the day to day operations now. I got involved in teaching because I felt the need to somehow get more young people involved in the industry. membership in the apprentice program has been steadily waning over the past decade. The one bit of professional advice I would give to all of you is to get interested in and be involved in education and the trends within the industry. Show up to plumbers board meetings and take responsibility for your trade before the politicians and industry whores sell us all down the drain. If that sounds holier than thou then I apologize, but I am passionate about the need for licensed plumbers to be involved. When we let things slip the bastards start passing laws and codes that may well impact our livelyhoods and when it's too late all we can do is sit back and ***** about it. Apathy is the reason my state passed the dumbest gas licensing law immaginable, requiring no less than 5 separate licenses to work on gas piping or appliances. When the bill came up for a vote, there was no one there to stop it.


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## WestCoastPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I understand what the OP is saying.

Plumbing, if you do it right is not very easy, I just finished a tankless last week, had to hang hot, cold and 1" gas on a 9" cut unistrut, 47' total, all on a wall around the outer perimitar of a basement, for it to look right and level, it was pretty hard.

My jobs tear me up because everything has to look good, be plumb and level, and clean, if your a hack and throwing **** in in, then yeah, it is easy. ABS not properly strapped looks like crap.

I have a ProPress, every commercial water related job I have that thing saves my booty, sure, it is a little easier then sweating pipe or draining a 5 story building to sweat 2 fittings, but that is for customer convenience and it looks darn good on my tankless. Doubt a hack will invest 3500 in a tool. He would rather use sharbites.

If plumbing is done right, it can be complicated, if it is thrown toghether, it is easy and it looks easy too.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Hey Robert. How's business?


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## WestCoastPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Hey Robert. How's business?


 

Really great, how about up in your area??


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Fortunatly because my father built the business on service plumbing, we are pretty damn busy. With the cold weather we have been doing a lot of freezeup work as well as remodel stuff. Have not had to lay anyone off yet and I don't think we will.


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## WestCoastPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Fortunatly because my father built the business on service plumbing, we are pretty damn busy. With the cold weather we have been doing a lot of freezeup work as well as remodel stuff. Have not had to lay anyone off yet and I don't think we will.


 

Service is a great place to be, all the new construction plumbers are trying to be service plumbers now, a bunch of wanna be's it takes a good 4 years of service, and a wide variety of calls, to get it, by that time the recession will be over....maybe

More work for us. I notice alot of the low lifes are fading away also. this is great, only the strong survive.


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## brad7596 (Nov 1, 2008)

i dont think plumbers want it easy. most take pride in their work. safety concerns inpact on the way we work and some of the materials are outdated. ive seen photos of the construction of the empire state building and none of that stuff would be allowed today.


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

WestCoastPlumber said:


> *My jobs tear me up because everything has to look good, be plumb and level,* and clean, if your a hack and throwing **** in in, then yeah, it is easy. ABS not properly strapped looks like crap.



Can you try to explain this to the younger guys here......for some reason they don't believe me that "plumb" is still part of being a plumber........


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Indeed, proper use of a level and plumb bob seems to be a fading skill but some of us dinosaurs still know how to use one. It's one of the nice things about pex though. One less tool to have to carry. 

I'll admit to having OCD. I always set copper hangers with a chaulk line and I always use a transit to set underslab. If it ain's straight and plumb I can't sleep at night. Last summer I made one of my crew tear out a whole days underslab work and re-do it because he was 2" off straight over 40' down the foundation wall. Would have worked fine but we don't get paid for close enough. The last thing anyone that works for me ever want's to say is "Can't see it from my house" cause that's where they will be. There is no place for "sloppy" in this profession just as there is no place for sloppy in the medical profession.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

WestCoastPlumber said:


> I understand what the OP is saying.
> 
> 
> I have a ProPress, every commercial water related job I have that thing saves my booty, sure, it is a little easier then sweating pipe or draining a 5 story building to sweat 2 fittings, but that is for customer convenience and it looks darn good on my tankless. Doubt a hack will invest 3500 in a tool. He would rather use sharbites.
> ...


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## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> . It's one of the nice things about pex though. *One less tool to have to carry.*


WOW, I might just start promoting pex, I can be even lazyer, no soldering, my pipes dont have to be plumb or level, and less tools to carry,:laughing:

Hell, That sounds great,. maybe, I can hire some non skilled workers to run it through all my jobsites as well.

Oh wait, There is many shops doing that already.......dam....Though I had an idea :furious:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I don't use the ProPress for pex. Mostly use it for "wet" repair work. have done a couple hydronic manifolds with it also.


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## plumb4fun (Feb 18, 2009)

The older and more worn out I get, the easier I want it too be! I say bring on the pex, trac pipe, and sharkbites!!!! Thats my back and Knees talking, you know!


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## dahlman (Mar 1, 2009)

*Plumbers will always be the backbone of our industry*

Hi guys,

I just joined and this is my first post. I work for a manufacturer and have spent much of my working life there, where the philosophy has always been along the lines that "you don't know anything about our product applications until you have spoken to a plumber that has done it."

There will always be a place for the professional trades. :thumbup:

In fact, I wonder if an aspect of the recent DIY culture has been that their incorrectly performed work has created opporunities for re-work jobs that result in much higher billings than if they had called a pro in the first place.

A DIY customer has never taught me anything :no: (other than to fear what they may end up doing...like putting teflon tape on compression threads...aarrgh!), whereas I ALWAYS learn something new when I speak with a pro.:yes:

The more technologies there are in the market, the more people will need the pros to sort them out.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

You a " Dahl " man ? The valve company ?


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

dahlman said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I just joined and this is my first post. I work for a manufacturer and have spent much of my working life there, where the philosophy has always been along the lines that "you don't know anything about our product applications until you have spoken to a plumber that has done it."
> 
> ...


Yea, and? What are we to get out of your post? I take it you not a plumber? Your field says Manufacturer, this site is for plumbers only. Why are you here?


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Speaking of dahl.. has any of you bought that box with all the pieces in it so you can make your own stops? I just bought one last week. it's pretty cool. you can make straight,angle, dual, hammer arestors etc. plus what ever size and connection type. I figured it would help in a pinch if i needed some odd valve.


Plumber Jim


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## dahlman (Mar 1, 2009)

Ron The Plumber said:


> Yea, and? What are we to get out of your post? I take it you not a plumber? Your field says Manufacturer, this site is for plumbers only. Why are you here?


Hi Ron,

I was hoping to listen & learn and, if ever applicable, offer answers to questions about our products - and mistakenly thought that it might be okay for me to participate here. 

I respectfully apologize to the members of this forum and will PM Nathan to cancel my membership.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

dahlman said:


> Hi Ron,
> 
> I was hoping to listen & learn and, if ever applicable, offer answers to questions about our products - and mistakenly thought that it might be okay for me to participate here.
> 
> I respectfully apologize to the members of this forum and will PM Nathan to cancel my membership.


If Nathan gives you the ok, then your fine with me. :yes:


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Plumber Jim said:


> Speaking of dahl.. has any of you bought that box with all the pieces in it so you can make your own stops? I just bought one last week. it's pretty cool. you can make straight,angle, dual, hammer arestors etc. plus what ever size and connection type. I figured it would help in a pinch if i needed some odd valve.
> 
> 
> Plumber Jim


 I bought one of those kits and let me say ,,,, It has SAVED my A** a couple of late nights !!:thumbup:
cal


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## WestCoastPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Plumber Jim said:


> Speaking of dahl.. has any of you bought that box with all the pieces in it so you can make your own stops? I just bought one last week. it's pretty cool. you can make straight,angle, dual, hammer arestors etc. plus what ever size and connection type. I figured it would help in a pinch if i needed some odd valve.
> 
> 
> Plumber Jim


 
I wouldn't mind keeping a couple of these on the truck if they are reliable? anyone have a part number or link?


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

I bought the kit. It comes with 10 valve bodies and an assortment of different connectors, compression 1/2",3/8",1/4",5/8" and 1/2" sweat, 1/2" FIP, cpvc, pex crimp. etc. I paid like $100 for it and bought it at parks supply of america. here is a link to the dahl website.

http://www.dahlvalve.com/products/dahl_inone.aspx


Plumber Jim


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Anyone who thinks a job sitting in front of a computer is secure is in line for disappointment. Thanks to broadband, you can outsource to different countries or states when labor costs are too high. My buddy welds headers for high-end motors. His roomates have degrees and are all out of work.

I grew up and still live in SoCal. What I picked up from the school system is that they expected "the Brown Man" to be the solution to all the labor needs. So they canceled Home-eco, woodshop, auto shop, and welding. Then we find out that "The Brown Man" wants more than dirt wages. In come the next ethnic group to exploit.

There will always be need for skilled labor. Just ask a H.O. who's been burned too many times, or had people in their home who rubbed them the wrong way. They value someone who speaks their language and knows what they're doing.

Our shop has a bit of pex, shark bite fittings and a propress. We don't rely on these things for day-in, day-out work, and our customers can see the effort we take to make our work look good. My trade isn't going anywhere.


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## invictus (Jan 19, 2009)

Ever pay attention when your at the supply house... every plumber is rubbing their lower back. I say bring on the new technologies that make plumbing easier.

My friend thought how hard could plumbing really be when he built his house (In the country so didn't need plumbing inspection, just final). Ran plastic halfway decent to all the fixtures. Told me see plumbing isn't so tough. I looked at it and laughed. He didn't vent one fixture. Roughed the toilet in where he couldn't even fit a 10 inch tank in.

Also bought pex from home depot. Didn't have a clue what to do with the lines after the manifold.

There is so many tools a plumber needs to accomplish most jobs that alone is a deterrent to most home owners from attempting DIY.
Also most cities require a licensed master or journey man plumber to be on the job site in order to pass inspection. We are still regulated by the department of health after all. Doubt plumbing codes will get less strict any time soon.


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## PlumberWhoCares (Mar 27, 2009)

Bad plumbing is already easy enough.

True plumbing will always require brains so by default it is not easy.

Improvements for bad backs already exists - we call them apprentices. :laughing:


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## invictus (Jan 19, 2009)

PlumberWhoCares said:


> Improvements for bad backs already exists - we call them apprentices. :laughing:



lol. true I guess. I'm only a journyman so I still have to do my fair share of grunt work.


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## leak1 (Mar 25, 2009)

_i guess im old school, i will more than likley die with one foot in the ditch, but i will make it plumb & level and hold my head high when i give them the bill! TOTHE YOUNG PLUMBERS OUT THERE: always do good work and you will always have a job,make us older plumbers proud!_
_i have had my shop for 25yrs., dont be there just for the paycheck be there for a career!!!!!!!! be all that you can be! LEAK 1_


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## PlumberWhoCares (Mar 27, 2009)

leak1 said:


> _i guess im old school, i will more than likley die with one foot in the ditch, but i will make it plumb & level and hold my head high when i give them the bill! TOTHE YOUNG PLUMBERS OUT THERE: always do good work and you will always have a job,make us older plumbers proud!_
> _i have had my shop for 25yrs., dont be there just for the paycheck be there for a career!!!!!!!! be all that you can be! LEAK 1_


No truer words spoken :thumbup:. I joke about apprentices, but on a two man job I am usually the first one with a shovel in a ditch. A wet & messy crawlspace - I'm in before common sense prevails. I make a rule to never ask my men to do something I wouldn't do myself.

I'm old school and fair.


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## reposessions (Nov 1, 2010)

i read this and got all teary eyed...should be stickied...required reading even.


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## Eric (Jan 10, 2011)

plumberwhocares said:


> no truer words spoken :thumbup:. I joke about apprentices, but on a two man job i am usually the first one with a shovel in a ditch. A wet & messy crawlspace - i'm in before common sense prevails. I make a rule to never ask my men to do something i wouldn't do myself.
> 
> I'm old school and fair.


 
ditto


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