# Boiler can't keep up



## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Got a call that a boiler I put in about 6 months ago wasn't keeping up. It was under 20 most of the weekend and his house was losing a degree every few hours. The boiler was sized correctly and there was actually more than enough baseboard upstairs. I go down to look at the boiler first and it modulated down to 156 but the temp in the house was still dropping. Supplies were hot and so were the returns. So I go upstairs to feel the baseboards and this is what I find


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Convection 101... *Fail!* :laughing:


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Fin tube!! Should be illegal in cold zones.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Convection 101... *Fail!* :laughing:


I never made a mistake until, I hired him. First job he did a whole house like that. His thought was the flat surface would give off more heat.
About 75 couplings later we did get it to work!


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> I never made a mistake until, I hired him. First job he did a whole house like that. His thought was the flat surface would give off more heat.
> About 75 couplings later we did get it to work!


What did you say to him?

My imagination is running overtime on this...:laughing:


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Hate those fintubes... castiron baseboards are the 2nd best for comfort... did seen those done by handyman.. told the customer the problem, wouldn't pay me as said its the handyman's job to correct it.. so what did he do?? Turned the fins 90 degrees.. talked about what a fooked up looking fins since he said its doesn't matter cuz the front panel covers it..


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## ken53 (Mar 1, 2011)

*mike*

I saw Mike Homes plumber putting one in that way on TV.:yes::yes:


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

ken53 said:


> I saw Mike Homes plumber putting one in that way on TV.:yes::yes:


Hope you got ahold of him and bash him like he does to others..


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Redwood said:


> What did you say to him?
> 
> My imagination is running overtime on this...:laughing:


PZ will not print it it comes back all astericked. But this him also could not back up a truck using the mirrors, he would open the drivers door lean out and look back. Ever see a truck door that greeted a couple of trees and poles? Him was hired as a journeyman level on a thirty day trial, he was to go on hospital 30 days after being hired. Guess what he never made the 30 days. Really I think Journeyman meant the journey the man [him] he took while job hunting.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

So what are you going to do? Replace the baseboards with radiators?


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

I have no problem with fin tube baseboard...when it is installed correctly. The house was steam up until about two years ago when someone talked the ho into converting the boiler to fhw with baseboard. The first winter the ho was complaining about the house losing temp when in was below 20 outside so the guy that converted the boiler and put in the baseboard added an extra 4' to every room just to have the same problem. The boiler ended up cracking and that's when I installed the new boiler. The guy that put in the baseboard swears up and down that I don't know what I'm talking about and he installed it that way because that's how it comes in the box and it doesn't make a difference which way the fins are facing. Long story short he was supposed to be there today to spin all the elements. I'll give the ho a call after the next batch of below 20 weather we get and see how well his heat is working.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

bct p&h said:


> I have no problem with fin tube baseboard...when it is installed correctly. The house was steam up until about two years ago when someone talked the ho into converting the boiler to fhw with baseboard. The first winter the ho was complaining about the house losing temp when in was below 20 outside so the guy that converted the boiler and put in the baseboard added an extra 4' to every room just to have the same problem. The boiler ended up cracking and that's when I installed the new boiler. The guy that put in the baseboard swears up and down that I don't know what I'm talking about and he installed it that way because that's how it comes in the box and it doesn't make a difference which way the fins are facing. Long story short he was supposed to be there today to spin all the elements. I'll give the ho a call after the next batch of below 20 weather we get and see how well his heat is working.


Lol.. spinning all those fins will ruin the radiators and more noise!! Wondering if the other guy is a furance company??


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

We run the baseboard in Edmonton @180F. I doubt that rotating the fins will help that much.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Catlin987987 said:


> We run the baseboard in Edmonton @180F. I doubt that rotating the fins will help that much.


Been to Holmes job??


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

I never seen those. How's it suppose to look? Is it rolls on its side. It has no blower ? I'm glad we have central heat and air around here why don't y'all have it ther ? Do new homes ? Surly new ones atleast have fan coils. And no rads ???!!??


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I never seen those. How's it suppose to look? Is it rolls on its side. It has no blower ? I'm glad we have central heat and air around here why don't y'all have it ther ? Do new homes ? Surly new ones atleast have fan coils. And no rads ???!!??


Tak3 tha


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I never seen those. How's it suppose to look? Is it rolls on its side. It has no blower ? I'm glad we have central heat and air around here why don't y'all have it ther ? Do new homes ? Surly new ones atleast have fan coils. And no rads ???!!??


It works by convection. As it heats the hot air rises and actually pulls the air off the floor and over the fins. If you look at the pic I originally posted you'll see that the open part of the fin is facing the front to back, it's supposed to be up and down. When the cover is on the baseboard in the picture you might as well have a solid aluminum block. It cuts way down on the heated surface area and the air can't move between the fins. Just for the hell of it I asked a rep for htp boilers how much efficiency you lose by installing it that way and he said at least 40-50%.
A lot of homes in new England have this type of heat. More and more new houses go up with ducting but some people prefer hydronic heat so I have put it in new houses too.



Catlin987987 said:


> We run the baseboard in Edmonton @180F. I doubt that rotating the fins will help that much.


A modulation boiler will not hold 180 all the time. That's why this ho's problem got worse when I put in the new boiler. 180 or 150, doesn't really matter when the element was installed wrong. You're not going to get the same heat out of it with the fins facing the wrong way. Like I said, he was having the same problem, probably not as extreme but close, with the old boiler always running at 180. The new boiler made it worse because the heat couldn't come out of the baseboard and it was coming back to the boiler close to the same temp as it was going out. Because its a modulation boiler it is going to reduce output temp based on the return temp. Do you understand how high eff boilers work?



rjbphd said:


> Lol.. spinning all those fins will ruin the radiators and more noise!! Wondering if the other guy is a furance company??


I hope to God he is cutting each side of the elements and spinning the entire section and not just trying to spin the fins! He'll end up ruining all of it.
I know of the guy that did the install and on the side of the truck he says he specializes in boilers haha I've replaced boilers he's put in before. Everything he does is propress down to the male x propress adapter he uses on the relief valve. The work I've seen him do has been a little sloppy but nothing like this before.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I never seen those. How's it suppose to look? Is it rolls on its side. It has no blower ? I'm glad we have central heat and air around here why don't y'all have it ther ? Do new homes ? Surly new ones atleast have fan coils. And no rads ???!!??





bct p&h said:


> It works by convection. As it heats the hot air rises and actually pulls the air off the floor and over the fins. If you look at the pic I originally posted you'll see that the open part of the fin is facing the front to back, it's supposed to be up and down. When the cover is on the baseboard in the picture you might as well have a solid aluminum block. It cuts way down on the heated surface area and the air can't move between the fins. Just for the hell of it I asked a rep for htp boilers how much efficiency you lose by installing it that way and he said at least 40-50%.
> A lot of homes in new England have this type of heat. More and more new houses go up with ducting but some people prefer hydronic heat so I have put it in new houses too.
> 
> A modulation boiler will not hold 180 all the time. That's why this ho's problem got worse when I put in the new boiler. 180 or 150, doesn't really matter when the element was installed wrong. You're not going to get the same heat out of it with the fins facing the wrong way. Like I said, he was having the same problem, probably not as extreme but close, with the old boiler always running at 180. The new boiler made it worse because the heat couldn't come out of the baseboard and it was coming back to the boiler close to the same temp as it was going out. Because its a modulation boiler it is going to reduce output temp based on the return temp. Do you understand how high eff boilers work?
> ...


We see a lot of it here in CT and it works, I've got it in my house...

TX it's simple like bct p&h said the hot water is circulated through the fin tube elements and the aluminum fins provide an excellent surface for heat transfer, with convection taking care of the airflow over the fins. Balancing is easy too with a damper on the baseboard that can regulate air flow.

Slant Fin Fine/Line 30 Catalog sheet

About the only problem you'll encounter installing it will be in kitchens and baths where you may not have enough linear feet of wall space available to get the length you need for the room, so in those rooms you might need a kicker under the cabinets or, vanity and there goes the reliability with fans and thermostats...:laughing:

Install it with the fins facing front to back instead of up and down and you've destroyed the convection airflow. I never realized the percentage that was quoted by his rep, it was just a "No Brainer" to me so I didn't even think of it... :laughing:

To fix it the entire element needs to be turned, the fins are pressed on and the thin aluminum bends easily. If he tries to just rotate the fins, they will be loose and sound like a bunch of tin cans rattling...


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

I actually installed a few like that before my JMan explained wtf I did wrong and made me cut it out.

I have since seem this a few times here in the NW . Not many good boiler guys here.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

*education time*



Redwood said:


> We see a lot of it here in CT and it works, I've got it in my house...
> 
> Redwood seems like some have never seen it ... Also seems like quite a few don't realize the concept of convection. Now remember when it first hit the market when the back panel was drawn thru dies and the resulting air foil around the top curve was there. The convected airflow
> would bend around the curve and take all the airborn dust with it and bounce back against the wall about 10" above the heat. The result
> ...


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

If you have to bleed the raditiors every season, means the boiler is piped incorrectly.. you only needs to purge it once when filling up the system.
If you are getting ' heat' dirt streak on wall, again, improper install without using the paper behind the radaitor...


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

rjbphd said:


> If you have to bleed the raditiors every season, means the boiler is piped incorrectly.. you only needs to purge it once when filling up the system.
> If you are getting ' heat' dirt streak on wall, again, improper install without using the paper behind the radaitor...




*Better put your debate cap on. I have never seen any non-ferrous heat installed with paper behind the metal panels. Ferrous heat [cast iron] yes. One little air pocket will stop a zone from circulating on non-ferrous. Different animal! *


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Right about the non ferrous... and right about a little air pocket, if repeatly happens, the boiler not piped right or its a Junkirk boiler..


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

bct p&h said:


> It works by convection. As it heats the hot air rises and actually pulls the air off the floor and over the fins. If you look at the pic I originally posted you'll see that the open part of the fin is facing the front to back, it's supposed to be up and down. When the cover is on the baseboard in the picture you might as well have a solid aluminum block. It cuts way down on the heated surface area and the air can't move between the fins. Just for the hell of it I asked a rep for htp boilers how much efficiency you lose by installing it that way and he said at least 40-50%.
> A lot of homes in new England have this type of heat. More and more new houses go up with ducting but some people prefer hydronic heat so I have put it in new houses too.
> 
> 
> A modulation boiler will not hold 180 all the time. That's why this ho's problem got worse when I put in the new boiler. 180 or 150, doesn't really matter when the element was installed wrong. You're not going to get the same heat out of it with the fins facing the wrong way. Like I said, he was having the same problem, probably not as extreme but close, with the old boiler always running at 180. The new boiler made it worse because the heat couldn't come out of the baseboard and it was coming back to the boiler close to the same temp as it was going out. Because its a modulation boiler it is going to reduce output temp based on the return temp. Do you understand how high eff boilers work?


A modulation boiler should be able to hold 180 constantly, The output differance between 150F and 180F is almost 50% per foot on baseboard fin. If there is little temperature drop from the supply and return you might have a poor flow or piping design. Have you checked the temperature of the pipe with a thermometer in trouble areas?
Edmonton is full of baseboard heating, mist of it in old buildings with crappy building envelopes. The fin in most of the builds have 40 years of lint and hair stuck in them and they still do the job, thats why I think your estimation of 40-50% decreased output is off. Did anyone do the heat loss calculations when it was converted?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

You can crank up to 240* on boiler...


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Catlin987987 said:


> A modulation boiler should be able to hold 180 constantly, The output differance between 150F and 180F is almost 50% per foot on baseboard fin. If there is little temperature drop from the supply and return you might have a poor flow or piping design. Have you checked the temperature of the pipe with a thermometer in trouble areas?
> Edmonton is full of baseboard heating, mist of it in old buildings with crappy building envelopes. The fin in most of the builds have 40 years of lint and hair stuck in them and they still do the job, thats why I think your estimation of 40-50% decreased output is off. Did anyone do the heat loss calculations when it was converted?


A modulating boiler will not hold 180 consistently. If it did it wouldn't be modulating and it wouldn't be efficient. If it does hold 180 all the time the boiler is grossly under sized. These boilers are more efficient running on low fire all day than they are turning on and off all the time. That's why ever single one I put in I tell the ho to not use programmable thermostats.
The reason I'm having such a small temp loss between the supply and return is because the baseboard was installed wrong and very little of the heat is actually coming off of it. 
Without air crossing over the fins I might as well have a 100' loop of straight pipe. The reason fin tube still works with hair and lint all over it is the same reason a furnace can still work with a dirty filter. Are you getting all the heat you can out of it? Of course not. Now take that furnace filter and stack a bunch of them sideways, just like the fins on this baseboard that was installed wrong, and see how well it works. 
If you don't believe me why not put an email in to slant fin and ask them what would happen if you put it in wrong. While you're at it send one over to htp and ask them about your consistently 180 modulation boiler. If I'm wrong I'll come out and admit it but I'm pretty good with hydronic heat and I'd put money on me being correct on this one.


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

bct p&h said:


> A modulating boiler will not hold 180 consistently. If it did it wouldn't be modulating and it wouldn't be efficient. If it does hold 180 all the time the boiler is grossly under sized. These boilers are more efficient running on low fire all day than they are turning on and off all the time.


:whistling2:


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