# Pros and con of doing house mainlines?



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I'm debating and researching if I'm going to purchase a mainline machine. I don't have enough plumbing repair jobs and lateral drain cleanings so I have to add more services. 

I'd like to know what kind of issues you encounter unclogging main house lines. 4" to probably 6" under the lawn to the street. All houses here have basements so that means the main is 8 feet underground in the front yard. I will always be alone to carry a 180 pound drum machine to the basement down and up the steps. Not too many houses have basement cleanouts. That means I'd have to go through tiny powder rooms on many occasions.

Not sure if I want to go with a sectional but it would be easier to haul. 

I will not buy a camera, too expensive, I doubt people will want to pay for it either with a guesstimate 500$+ drain cleaning bill plus a 400$ camera bill.

If I get a cable stuck under law I have to buy them new pipes, new basement reno, pay for the dig and backhoe from my own pockets and a new lawn. The only way around that is a bullet proof waiver. I would need a very good lawyer to write one up. I doubt my homemade waiver isn't without flaws and loop holes.

If its too much trouble I'm going to drop the idea. What are pros and cons of my idea?


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Pro's are not turning down customers especially repeat customers that always want you to do all their plumbing work. Our main lines are about 18" deep where they exit the house and we don't have to lug the thing up and down basement stairs. 

No cons except I bought one last summer and have had zero calls for it. 
http://www.plumbingzone.com/f23/spartan-300-a-75889/


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Debo22 said:


> Pro's are not turning down customers especially repeat customers that always want you to do all their plumbing work. Our main lines are about 18" deep where they exit the house and we don't have to lug the thing up and down basement stairs.
> 
> No cons except I bought one last summer and have had zero calls for it.
> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f23/spartan-300-a-75889/


You got a nice deal it's an unbelievable price! Even if it's been sitting its a cool catch.

I had purchased the k-3800 in hopes of doing mainlines but after getting feedback its only going to serve for sinks and a few 3" and 4" in certain applications.

As for returning customers, I haven't had many. Most houses I deal with are very new from 1980 and up.


Also thinking about it without a camera I can't see if there are roots or broken line. Then having to call a backhoe and dealing with 1950's crumbling clay pipes that collapses further into the soil trying to chase it and keeps crumbling further and further.


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## Mikeob1998 (Apr 22, 2018)

Sounds like you better look into a good waiver. Where I work we would never be held responsible if our cables get stuck. We just explain what happened then tell H/O the only fix is for the line to be excavated. Interesting to hear the laws in different areas. Another option is running 8’ sectionals cables using a drill adapter and high rpm drill. No expensive sectional machine needed. I always use cardboard and plastic to prep area around clean out and it’s more professional that way since the cables can splatter more then if using a speedrooter or drum machine 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Tango said:


> dealing with 1950's crumbling clay pipes that collapses further into the soil trying to chase it and keeps crumbling further and further.


When I re-piped my french drain around the house they'd hammered a hole on top of the 6" clay and inserted the 4" perforated drain. 

I cut the pipe in the 8' deep trench and it kept crumbling. It finally ended like 8" into the soil, I was starting to panic as I dug around it to put a fernco but the clay soil kept burying it and the pipe collapsing again and again. I was so glad to finally and gingerly put a coupling on.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Mikeob1998 said:


> Sounds like you better look into a good waiver. Where I work we would never be held responsible if our cables get stuck. We just explain what happened then tell H/O the only fix is for the line to be excavated. Interesting to hear the laws in different areas.



We are responsible for so much its worrisome. We are accountable for a lot because we "are the professional" and we are supposed to be knowledgeable.

It's another reason I've added a second signature on my plumbing work order because 1 signature may not be good enough for the law. (If I want to prove my innocence). I got to say a phone price on the phone, gotta say the price again when I meet them, explain all the fees, have them print their name, sign acknowledging the price. When the work is done re-explain again*have them print their name and have them print the time it took to coincide with mine and another signature.

Yeah. Seriously I'm going to start to look for law classes. I'm not kidding.


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

I wouldn’t offer drain cleaning with out being able to do a main period. 

Couldn’t you pick up a used or a Chinese camera, Until you build up some business...


Just a thought


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Fatpat said:


> I wouldn’t offer drain cleaning with out being able to do a main period.
> 
> Couldn’t you pick up a used or a Chinese camera, Until you build up some business...
> 
> ...


I have a thread about the chinese camera/sonde. I'm not ready yet as its still a lot of Canadian dollars.

Right now I have no problems with drain cleaning, I do all laterals and I've done many many of them but as soon as I hear a mainline I turn most of those away.

I just explain I don't have the bigger equipment for those situations. All the rest I'm comfortable with. I ask the question on the phones and I know right away what I'm usually walking into.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

If your in any type of drain cleaning and can't do the whole job your going to loose customers when they find someone who can.


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## Mikeob1998 (Apr 22, 2018)

Tango said:


> We are responsible for so much its worrisome. We are accountable for a lot because we "are the professional" and we are supposed to be knowledgeable.
> 
> It's another reason I've added a second signature on my plumbing work order because 1 signature may not be good enough for the law. (If I want to prove my innocence). I got to say a phone price on the phone, gotta say the price again when I meet them, explain all the fees, have them print their name, sign acknowledging the price. When the work is done re-explain again*have them print their name and have them print the time it took to coincide with mine and another signature.
> 
> Yeah. Seriously I'm going to start to look for law classes. I'm not kidding.




Good gravy! At least getting a signature before, and after the job is completed you know you should be covered.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

I’ve ran a few mains, I’m not the best out there, but I have just enough experience to make me dangerous. Most of those years were in a time when I could call someone else to bail my sorry ass out with no financial loss.

I still have a cable lodged in a city sewer that I’m responsible for.

Most jobs go good. Sometimes you get stuck on a misalignment or massive root ball. How do you get it loose? Other then my cable in the city, I can, but that took years.

I’m not saying you don’t have experience or knowledge, but drain cleaning can be stressful as a one man shop.

In your clause state that you are not responsible for the condition of your customers drains. It’s obviously common sense, but...


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Mikeob1998 said:


> Good gravy! At least getting a signature before, and after the job is completed you know you should be covered.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What I forgot to say they have to print their name and date before the work and after the work. They also have to print the time it took to agree with the time I wrote on the bill.

I did this because I got a price complaint and I may have to face the discipline committee and court if they are dumb enough to go through it. From now on if they file a complaint it's going to be very hard to argue the price. I will be prepared for the committee with my new work order or if it goes to court. 

People complain about the price and today I got a quote to have a big branch cut and they charge 500$ an hour and a half of work(333$hr) and he was a pirate. That's over 3x more than the average plumbing rate. It pisses me off all other trades can charge with impunity while I have way more responsibility and licencing and I may be disciplined because I make about the same as an employee right now.

Rant over


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

OpenSights said:


> I’ve ran a few mains, I’m not the best out there, but I have just enough experience to make me dangerous. Most of those years were in a time when I could call someone else to bail my sorry ass out with no financial loss.
> 
> I still have a cable lodged in a city sewer that I’m responsible for.
> 
> ...


I thought you did mains all the time or are you talking back then? That's why I'm asking opinions to decide if I go for it. If it gets stuck I'm on my own. I consider myself very aware of my environment.

I don't mind turning down customers if I can't do it all. I get the feeling they call once because they are in a bind and don't call a plumber often so there is no fidelity if you need a plumber for another 5 year.

I also don't want the water heater route, too much trouble to get help on time. Too much danger with stairs and hack prices.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Tango said:


> I thought you did mains all the time or are you talking back then? That's why I'm asking opinions to decide if I go for it. If it gets stuck I'm on my own. I consider myself very aware of my environment.
> 
> I don't mind turning down customers if I can't do it all. I get the feeling they call once because they are in a bind and don't call a plumber often so there is no fidelity if you need a plumber for another 5 year.
> 
> I also don't want the water heater route, too much trouble to get help on time. Too much danger with stairs and hack prices.


For drain cleaning, I’d say 50/50 main line/secondary. During “turnover” in the college ghetto I run 8-12 mains a day.

The way I look at plumbing and drain cleaning is like an auto mechanic and an autobody guy.

I’m serious about this. Unless you have years of experience in drain cleaning and experience behind the machine you are using, don’t do it.

I’m speaking from experience. Damn near lost my thumb once.


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## WashingtonPlung (Jul 25, 2016)

The school district bought a Spartan 300 recently.. One time I still had to call for a company to jet a line but my other experiences are amazing.

I use to use a k-60 sectional. I hate sectionals. They are so messy to deploy. (unless you use the tube behind you but it makes feeding it a pain.

I did Kink my first cable by not paying attention and having a co worker talk as i pulled out the cable with auto feed.

Over all great machine and there is a spartan rep on these forums that could give you a quote.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

I used a k750 for years, decent machine but you really have to pay attention and know the limits based on the condition of your cable. The last guy I worked for introduced me to Spartan. When I went on my own I bought a brand new k750. After the third main I started looking for a 300. 

The only sectional I use is the k1500. PITA, but I charge for it. I have the sleeve, but I agree about the feeding issues. Not a big deal with a helper, but by yourself it’s back and forth.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I'm still weighing my options if I go ahead or not but I was looking at the Ridgid K-6200. I would not buy anything other than Ridgid or General. Not interested in the K-60 or the newer version that will be coming out soon.

I can probably rig something to have my K-3800 autofeed work on the K-6200 if it doesn't fit already. I could also use the 5/8" bits that came with the K-3800.

As an option I can buy an adapter or maybe make one to be able to accept the smaller drum.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

On a side note, when using a sectional, make sure any house hold pets are put away. I’d hate to see a curious cat grabbed by a 1-1/4” cable flopping around and going for a ride.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Tango said:


> I'm still weighing my options if I go ahead or not but I was looking at the Ridgid K-6200. I would not buy anything other than Ridgid or General. Not interested in the K-60 or the newer version that will be coming out soon.
> 
> I can probably rig something to have my K-3800 autofeed work on the K-6200 if it doesn't fit already. I could also use the 5/8" bits that came with the K-3800.
> 
> As an option I can buy an adapter or maybe make one to be able to accept the smaller drum.


I’ve looked into the k6200 too. Reviews here are not good. 

I work with other plumbers and drain cleaners in my area. We’re just that busy, plus I don’t have a jetter yet.... maybe find a cleaning outfit in your area to work with? You could get some experience, have a backup plan... 

Of course it depends on what you have available opportunity wise.

Drain cleaning can turn very bad very quick and if you don’t have the experience or a backup plan you can be in a world of poop. 

Not trying to knock you or your experience, heck you’re the first frog I’ve not only been able to tolerate, but actually like. I just don’t want to see you get in a pinch.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Another bit of my opinion, I’ve never used a General main line machine, but have checked them out at the supply house. Heavy!!!!


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

OpenSights said:


> Another bit of my opinion, I’ve never used a General main line machine, but have checked them out at the supply house. Heavy!!!!


Thanks for watching out for me! I was also thinking of making a clamp to grab the cable. Then tied to a come along and drilling shots in the concrete floor with an anchor or some 2x4 across a door. Just in case.

Secretly I only want Ridgid. General is heavy and looks cheaper and the drum will rust through with our winters always frosty. With Ridgid I can separate in to 2 pieces and bring downstairs.

As for help I'm pretty sure I'll be turned away unless I hire them if I get stuck.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

OpenSights said:


> I’ve looked into the k6200 too. Reviews here are not good.


You sure about bad reviews? Check out this thread, on this one the guys like it over the spartan 300. I even saw you in another thread wanting one!

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f23/anyone-use-ridgid-k-6200-a-62969/



Another issue is I'm not familiar with are the location of the backwater valves I've seen on newer houses. Some mains are combined with the french drain and some are separate. It would be confusing at first to discern witch ones does what.

Talking about a world of poop many backwater valves here are hidden under tiles and subfloor. I've said it before and my 2nd try with the 3800 I think I got stuck in one of them until the flap broke after an hour of yanking and fooling around. I'll be using the pex trick next time.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Here a few more links where the machine is liked.

https://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/mechanical-trades/drain-cleaning-discussion/23195-ridgid-k-6200

https://www.ridgid.com/ca/en/k6200-drum-machine


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

If your going ridgid do your self a favor get the K7500 it’s the real deal. I ran 125’ of 5/8” intercore, and it could handle anything.

Unfortunately all my ridgid machines got ripped of last year with my truck.

I’m now running all Duracable and have nothing but good things to say. They are truly the best built, best quality machines I’ve ran.


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

P.s I’ve owned Gorlitz, Ridgid, Spartan , general and now duracable.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

I have had interest and still considering the k6200. Where the 300 is limited to 75’ of 5/8 cable and 100’ of super expensive .55 magnum to load, the k6200 is appealing. What I have works. Always looking forward.


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## Kevan (Jul 5, 2010)

If you can stay out of drain cleaning, stay out of drain cleaning. It'll eat you alive unless you're good.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Not to mention wear and tear on your body.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Kevan said:


> If you can stay out of drain cleaning, stay out of drain cleaning. It'll eat you alive unless you're good.


Can you tell me about the mishaps? I've read some blog posts of yours and I'd like to know more why you don't recommend it.


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## fixitright (Jan 5, 2012)

You could have that equipment paid for by now.

Look at all the options.

I use the Clog Dog and Dreel.
Also K-60 and 100#s of Lye


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

fixitright said:


> You could have that equipment paid for by now.
> 
> Look at all the options.
> 
> ...


If you have a large volume of calls yes you will pay it off quickly. Depending on the point of view if I go with the equipment fee alone not counting my hourly so I can buy myself groceries at the end of the week. I have to use my k-3800 roughly 70 times before I pay the value of it off. I've used it 6 times in 9 months.

I guesstimate I got main drain calls about a dozen times in 9 months. I did one of those with the k-3800. In my guesstimate 11 of those told me they had trees in the front yard...

This is the reason I'm in no hurry. I am in the process of planning a home made clog dog/Rick's whacker. Maybe I won't go through with it but nevertheless I'm researching my materials with another guy.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

OpenSights said:


> Another bit of my opinion, I’ve never used a General main line machine, but have checked them out at the supply house. Heavy!!!!


TL/DR general machines are great, use it damn near everyday.

I am the drain snaking guy at our plumbing shop. I use several general machines, a couple ridgid, and a couple marco.

My main unit is a general speedrooter with 100' of 5/8" cable. Model 91 I think. Averaged over a year I use it probably 4 times a week, when it is snaking season I will use it 4 times a day. For a while I was also carrying a second drum with 75' of 3/4" cable for when the first isn't long enough. The steel drum will not rot out, don't worry. I love this machine. It will go through 2" pvc 90's, and also clear with some extra time 6" lines too. I am constantly clearing roots and f.h.p.'s from cast iron and clay pipes.

I have nothing but good things to say about our general machines. The ridgid-kohlman k-750 is also great just bulkier. I use the k-750 every couple years when the general needs large repairs.

The ridgid k-40 I was forced to use is a hunk of junk. The cables it came with were crap. Now I just use general cables in it and run it in reverse because the cables are left hand wound.

My camera is a ridgid cs6-pak with 100' cable, a bit thin for 6" pipe but it does down to 1-1/2" which is nice.

As far as the general being heavy, It weighs as much as I do. I use a 3foot long piece of plywood as a ramp to load it back in the van. At the axle tips it is ~32" wide so clears almost all door ways. If you do some funky manuevers you can clear old 24" doorways too. I have three 3' long coilovers that attach to the front so I don't have to have it so close to the drain opening. This is real handy for overhead cleanouts in basements.

I have only broken the outer wind of general cables only a couple times, and everytime the inner core has stayed intact allowing me to pull it out.

Our marco snake has electric eel cable in it which is also quite robust. I have never broken a cable on the k-750 because of how infrequently I use it.

If weight is the real issue just get a 75' drum of 5/8". If that isn't long enough refer them to a jetter. I almost always refer them to a jetter if it's more than 100' because at that point I would be spending an excessive amount of energy and labour cost doing what could be cleared in half the time with a jetter.


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## Kevan (Jul 5, 2010)

Tango said:


> Can you tell me about the mishaps? I've read some blog posts of yours and I'd like to know more why you don't recommend it.


I think that some of the posts in this thread make the case well enough: you'll lose a lot of time on dumb stuff that doesn't pay.

I love drain cleaning. if I had my way, I'd do only that and leave the "plumbing" to my friends. I love it because I'm good at it. I'm good at it because I lost so much time and money being bad at it. I was a menace to society and to myself, but I stuck with it because I had to. Slowly, very slowly, I got good.

You can get good, too, if you don't go bankrupt first. Just stick with it. But until you get good, you'll be bad; and bad drain cleaning pays _very_ poorly.

I ran drains in every zip code of the tri-state area (around Memphis), in every hour of the 24-hour cycle. Sometimes we carried guns illegally and secured a perimeter so that we could work in housing projects where the cops don't even go. I've tied myself onto roofs with a rope to clean main lines from vents where the roof was as steep as a European cathedral. I've gone down into manholes to cable lines backward toward the house, hoping and praying that there wouldn't be enough hydrogen sulphide down there to kill me. (I was right every time.) Why? I had to earn enough to put myself through school and support my family at the same time.

I've cleaned sewers in a rainsuit during torrential downpours. I've run roof vents in pouring rain during electrical storms, with lightning striking nearby. I dug a big hole one day in a rainstorm while tornado sirens were going off. I've worked in sub-zero weather where ice was forming on my machine and I had to change gloves repeatedly because of the ice making them too slick. (I know: the Northerners are smirking at me now.)

I've worked in houses so filthy that, if you kept a dog in it, the Humane Society would haul you into court. I cleared one toilet that had been used daily for _a month_, even though it wouldn't flush. In rubber boots, I've stood in small lakes of sewage where the water all around me was shimmering with thousands of squirming maggots. I've worked under kitchen sinks where I've swatted roaches off me like so many houseflies.

I did this stuff because I _had_ to. You probably don't have to. I'm sure that you, or anyone reading this, could do anything I did and more. I'm also confident that you could kill a skunk with a baseball bat. But would you really want to?


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

If you're making money doing other stuff, then stick with that. 

Otherwise I'd recommend a good cable machine for your first real machine. The flex shaft works great but has too many limitations for a first machine. would you buy a sports car for your first car? Same concept. If you're determined to use flex shaft, you really need a camera and it needs to be a machine....not a bare shaft because you mentioned you're in basements. 

If I had to buy a machine all over again, it would be eel cable and the 7/8x5' sectionals used with a drill. It won't be easy to use but it'll work and you won't need a camera to use it.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

After reading the whole thing, I'd buy a used K1500A and then get the separate jaws for 7/8 cable if you need it later.

Reason why the 1500 instead of the new 5208 is because the 1500 is upright, has wheels, smooth body so easy to clean, and you can often find them on ebay for about 1k. The only advantage I see with the 5208 is it's smaller (but the foot print is pretty close to the 1500A, handle is on top and it has some cool non essential features (like a drip tray or a cord dump).

The sectionals will really allow you to feel whats going on in the pipe. Heck add a transmitter and you can do locates with your cable.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-RIDGI...559504?hash=item467c814d90:g:QaEAAOSwVuNa9wqV

900 in NYC


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

gear junkie said:


> https://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-RIDGI...559504?hash=item467c814d90:g:QaEAAOSwVuNa9wqV
> 
> 900 in NYC


Thanks for the link, unfortunately its local pick up only. It would of been a good deal.


This one is just for your viewing pleasure. Gas powered 1500

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RIDGID-K-1...606159?hash=item467d57a34f:g:qW0AAOSwklJa9dbP


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Tango said:


> If you have a large volume of calls yes you will pay it off quickly. Depending on the point of view if I go with the equipment fee alone not counting my hourly so I can buy myself groceries at the end of the week. I have to use my k-3800 roughly 70 times before I pay the value of it off. I've used it 6 times in 9 months.
> 
> *I guesstimate I got main drain calls about a dozen times in 9 months. *I did one of those with the k-3800. In my guesstimate 11 of those told me they had trees in the front yard...
> 
> This is the reason I'm in no hurry. I am in the process of planning a home made clog dog/Rick's whacker. Maybe I won't go through with it but nevertheless I'm researching my materials with another guy.


You don't need to focus on the equipment but rather focus on how will you get the phone to ring for drain cleaning. Having the equipment doesn't make the phone ring.


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## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

Drain cleaning is an art I've been doing it for the last 10 years and sometimes it's a breeze other times it's a battle to the death.. we have a municipal.contract that requires us to do clean and inspect sewer laterals to municipal sewer and I live in a city that has it all from houses that were here since war of 1812 to present day.. building traps no clean out all you have to work from is f.d.. my current set up is general speed rooter 92 and a k3800 with 3/8 and 1/4" and for anything under 100' it's good a good setup If more than 100 you need k 1500... I've had sewers k1500 could clear the general did and I've had roots.the.general could catch the 1500 got. Even in sewer machines there's no 1 size fits all... if your getting into drain cleaning you going to need a jetter aswell like theres just some you can't clear with a snake we have 2 18gpm 4k psi jetter and 1 12gpm 4k harbon.. for residential you can get away with less... if you want to pay off your equipment you need a commercial type contract.. you don't need to start off with a big jetter though you can always sub that out til you can afford to take plunge. You can probably find a camera for 7k used.. all this adds up but if you can sell a dig job for private side that's 4500 to 6k easy depending on depth were in same boat as you where things start at depth of 8' and get deeper from there... theres a lot of stuff you can 
Rent like wise... never say no to any job just adjust the price according to the amount of work involved


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Venomthirst said:


> Drain cleaning is an art I've been doing it for the last 10 years and sometimes it's a breeze other times it's a battle to the death.. we have a municipal.contract that requires us to do clean and inspect sewer laterals to municipal sewer and I live in a city that has it all from houses that were here since war of 1812 to present day.. building traps no clean out all you have to work from is f.d.. my current set up is general speed rooter 92 and a k3800 with 3/8 and 1/4" and for anything under 100' it's good a good setup If more than 100 you need k 1500... I've had sewers k1500 could clear the general did and I've had roots.the.general could catch the 1500 got. Even in sewer machines there's no 1 size fits all... if your getting into drain cleaning you going to need a jetter aswell like theres just some you can't clear with a snake we have 2 18gpm 4k psi jetter and 1 12gpm 4k harbon.. for residential you can get away with less... if you want to pay off your equipment you need a commercial type contract.. you don't need to start off with a big jetter though you can always sub that out til you can afford to take plunge. You can probably find a camera for 7k used.. all this adds up but if you can sell a dig job for private side that's 4500 to 6k easy depending on depth were in same boat as you where things start at depth of 8' and get deeper from there... theres a lot of stuff you can
> Rent like wise... never say no to any job just adjust the price according to the amount of work involved



I bet there's only 2 that have jetter's, these are unknown over here. I only do residential because commercial I doubt I'll get paid. I did a salon 4 weeks ago across the river and tried my flat rate. 90$ to go see and give a price and credit it if I got the job on the spot.

When I got there it was luxurious place on the main street of the city. You can't get a better location than that. a simple hose replacement with 2 gear clamps and they had the hose. They said they had waited 3 days for their appointment from the other company. She didn't want to sign my 90$ fee. I told the owner my minimum which was over the hourly of the other and she freaked out saying they could do it themselves but didn't have the tools yiddi yadda.

After her tantrum I did the job but it was real bitter and she had to mail the check. Commercial I'm not too fond right from the start.

By the way Venomthirst please space your paragraphs.


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## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

Depends on your market call around and ask other companies what they are charging... we were slow for a bit and my boss asked me to call and ask other companies what they were charging... 

The reason I say commercial is the way to go is because they need their drains in order to make money.. car washes restaraunts, apartment building kitchen lines.

Usually specialized equipment requires a special charge so its different charges for each piece camera jetter snake and a labour charge.. commercial can be a pita. 

However around here I see a lot of guys saying they only do commercial because residential jobs are usually much more finicky I don't like this I don't like that take your boots off.. wah wah then you get calls like that hair stylist I could've done that..

If you could've of done it you would have.. if you want to call a plumber and work for free then your sorely mistake.. one of the guys I work with now used to own his own company and he would say to his cheap customers. If you can bring your drain to me then I can do it for cheaper.. 

Every business has different expenses and every business should charge differently to suit their needs.

Residential you should charge the most commercial depends on how much work the more work the less you charge per hour.. industrial jobs usually pay the most but have the most work involved usually days and may require even more specialized equipment.. 

It's all in your business model and what's going to work for you... do you ever want to sleep a full eight hours again keep your business small and one or two man operation little to no specialized equipment mainline machine and branch line machine sub out anything more than you can handle with that..

Like another poster said drain cleaning will eat you alive if your not ready to handle it.. a lot of other plumbers I know go how the hell do you do it every day and really it should be a trade in itself


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## exclamation (Mar 11, 2013)

I’m glad I live where I do - sounds like a real hassle dealing with backwater valves and basement cleanouts. There are no basements here, freezing is rare so sewers usually exit the building like 1-2’ deep, newer houses are very good about having the mainline cleanout above ground/visible, no backwater valves, no ejector pumps, no septic, ks pretty much always has a cleanout, usually on the outside of the house. From what other guys are saying it sounds like drain cleaning is cake here.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I will keep doing laterals, toilet lines and maybe once in a while a 4". I won't be getting a bigger machine and camera. 1) I don't get enough calls and 2) too much drama if it goes bad. Not to mention those damn hidden back water valves. I've seen too many that were found by homeowners buying an existing house when they decided to redo the basement floors and ask me what the cap is for.


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

Here in Grand Forks ND backwater valves has been code after the 1997 flood. Only on fixtures below grade level. We also have to put in a full size clean out within 5 feet of where the sewer enters the house. 

We therefore normally put in the clean out and right after that we Wye off to the basement and put the backwater valve right there in the mechanical room so it is easy to find and does not get burried under a carpet. All you have to do is check if a toilet upstairs flush fine or not to know if the clog is outside the house or between the main clean out and basement fixtures.

I do not do drain cleaning on a daily basis but I have rarely seen an outside clean out here. We don't normally have it outside here because there is really only 3 months of the year when you could use it without it raining or being burried under snow.

Most sewers here will be in a basement so yes it sucks to have to drag one of these heavy Horowitz machines down the basement. 

I wish we could get a new mainline machine that is lighter and with 100' cable instead of the 75' ours has. All we normally see is 3"-4" and around 70'-110'









Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

About a month ago this backwater valve was hidden under the floor tiles and grouted over. The owner was seeing water coming out of the concrete check. In the very narrow hallway he broke the floor tiles to find a valve there and proceeded to dig to the pipe. I found out 3 fittings were cracked and the backwater valve was in the wrong place. That wasn't an easy repair. Imagine uncloging a the toilet line, instant snag on the way back without knowing where it was.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

A caveat to consider for both residential & commercial work. This may apply to more commercial small stores.

Make sure who owns the property, if it is a leased or rented commercial location get the "property owners" permission to work there. If a tenant calls and you they aren't ready to pay the landlord can claim they never gave you permission to enter or work on the property. 

You may have to eat your bill.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Before I went on my own I had about ten years experience in drain cleaning. I’ve seen a lot, many injuries, many cables, been around the block but haven’t seen it all, don’t know it all.

After that amount of experience I’ve still made mistakes. Modern BWVs don’t scare me if hidden. Old school ones... yeah cable gets stuck, but I can get my cable out with a few tricks I’ve learned. After all I’m not responsible for the condition of a customer’s plumbing.

I tell customers that drain cleaning and plumbing is like an auto mechanic and auto body guy. Two trades closely related but very different.

Other than secondary lines anyone who isn’t a drain cleaner with years of experience should not attempt.

I’m glad you made the decision you did Tango! Lots of trouble can happen! Almost lost a thumb once. Do they have RPZ testing up your way? It’s hit and miss for profit here in the US, we charge $200 for a 15 minuet test and paperwork. Certification class is up to over a grand last I checked and a bit more for the gauges. Just a thought.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

OpenSights said:


> Do they have RPZ testing up your way? It’s hit and miss for profit here in the US, we charge $200 for a 15 minuet test and paperwork. Certification class is up to over a grand last I checked and a bit more for the gauges. Just a thought.


First time I hear about that and went to check it out. Is it to test back water flow? If so then only a few commercial building have back flow preventers. It is slowly being installed in new commercial building. I think the code only demanded it since 2010 or very recently. No tests here yet, remember absolutely no plumbing inspections here.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

It’s big down here after 9/11. Backwater/air gap is huge, but everything from household irrigation to anything commercial/industrial needs vacuum breakers, RPZ... endless government income! 

Don’t get me wrong, I agree for the most part, but when it becomes an income source for the government in fees it’s extortion.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Illinois has had Backflow protection in the plumbing code for years. Of course the best is a fixed air gap between an outlet and contamination source. 

Fixed air, Dual check, Dual check with Atmo, PVB (not recognized in Illinois), AVB, stainless dual with Atmo for carbonation, RPZ.

Critical RPZ testing mandated yearly by the State & EPA. All lawn irrigation RPZ's must be registered with the State ($75.00 to register), annual test and test info provided to the water purveyor.

In my municipality, we finally went with a third party service to monitor. All testers must register for a free account, get verified and upload test results for each RPZ. I believe a $20.00 cost to register each. This company tracks and sends out notices of tests due. If they don't receive tests reports they let us know and we contact them or in worse case disconnect from public water.

If you Google "Mr. Blister" or chlordane contamination there is a real need for these. Mr. Blister was burnt by to much chlorine injected into public supply. Chlordane caused poisoning and a 60 home subdivision to get every water line, meter, faucet, W.H. to get wiped out in a subdivision all from the lack of a AVB on a sill-cock.

Blood products back siphoned into public water supply with the failure of a AVB in a funeral home.

I had a State building & a Day Care facility get foaming water our of their faucets. After testing samples it was found to be a detergent generally used in concrete production. Thank goodness nothing toxic.

Just happened to be a concrete plant behind these 2 buildings. We made an emergency visit to inspect the facility and found several backflow prevention devices there. Everything seemed in order. Never happened again, we got lucky.


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