# Installing Plumbing Not to Code



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I have a job I just did, house was built in 1948.


Had a 3/4" PVC sprinkler line tied to the washing machine discharge, then attached to 3/4" galvanized pipe with a street 90 and coupling and enters a 1.25" copper drain.


It was leaking when the washing machine ran.


When I opened the wall, turns out not only is this connected in such a bad way, it also picks up a kitchen sink line that was tapped in years ago that runs almost 22' and a lavatory sink on the opposite wall.


It gets better.


That 1.5" drain isn't a drain, it goes around, drops into the floor right directly behind the toilet in the basement. My thoughts are that the pipe originally was a vent for the toilet, someone years later turned it into a kitchen sink line, a lavatory line, a connection for the washing machine because there literally is no other piping to connect to. Not a 3" line in sight with exception to a 4" floor drain.

What do you do?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Ahhhhhhh............Punt :thumbsup:

I see an opportunity for you to make a few bucks


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Ahhhhhhh............Punt :thumbsup:
> 
> I see an opportunity for you to make a few bucks


 

Here was my hinderances:



1. Major expense to increase drain to 2" to catch 2 fixtures, 3 actually. Always have to bump to 2" on DFU load. Can't remember what's the numbers on 1.5" but no way 3 fixtures should be on it, especially a washing machine ffs! 

2. No way to properly VTR given the cost to do so, plus opening the walls were out of the question on the first floor, even to install a washer box.

3. Water lines are basically dual or triple sets of washing machine hoses from basement into the first floor through a small hole that also serves for the 3/4" washing machine drain, the extension cord and the two washing machine hoses. Not exactly pride work.

The son did the work for the mother over 15 years ago. It worked till the short copper pipe between 1.5" tees got a hole in it.

I couldn't upsize the line without major upgrades... but where do I stop? I can't turn a simple leak into the wall into a $2000.00 job just to make it code worthy. 

That's a double edge sword that could backfire instantly, making me out to be the bad guy even though she would of gladly accepted the cost to do the work.

I don't want to be seen as an opportunist, even though the work would be done right. 

The work I "did" was almost a copycat of before, minus the tees that were used. I used wyes with a connection that can be instantly removed if they decide to do something different down the road. It 'literally' is a direct connection to the drain system on the washing machine.


If I indirect that drain, it's going to back up instantly. No two ways around it.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Can't run a new vent stack in the corner of a closet????


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Do whatever you can live with, post pics on PZ, and claim someone else did it. :yes:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> Can't run a new vent stack in the corner of a closet????


 
39' to the other side of the house. 2 beams. 

Only vent stack that counts is one that goes to the atmosphere... AAV's not legal in KY.


Even a revent requires a stack, and no access to one. Ranch home with plumbing on two complete opposite sides.


Kitchen sink is always clogging up... no vent. Same as the washing machine and lavatory sink in basement, choking through a measely vent on the toilet. 

Have to knock out a false wall, remove a toilet to bring up 2" to upsize the drain... and that you might as well pull up the cast iron closet bend.

The money would just keep multiplying when the only thing involved is a small leak in a 5" long pipe.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Do whatever you can live with, post pics on PZ, and claim someone else did it. :yes:


 




Now that is funny!........:laughing:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Do whatever you can live with, post pics on PZ, and claim someone else did it. :yes:


 
I'm gonna send back my employee, tell him he's working for free. :laughing:


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## Evolve (Jan 2, 2011)

That is a definitely a tough situation.

I would simply offer her the options that lay before her, because at the end of the day she is the one paying the bill.

I would let her know what is wrong and give her a little plumbing lesson as to what needs to be done to fix it properly for it to meet code. Explain the costs and break it down so she understands. This way the client can make an informed decision and at the same time it covers your butt as you proposed to fix it properly and she declined, therefore leaving the responsibility to the client. 

You can't force people to do things they don't want to or pay for. It is however your job to inform them and recommend what is proper.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Evolve said:


> That is a definitely a tough situation.
> 
> I would simply offer her the options that lay before her, because at the end of the day she is the one paying the bill.
> 
> ...


 
Did that to a tee, wrote the invoice that explains 'the numerous code violations' that limits the scope of work to only replace what was leaking, reconnecting the system back to working order.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

This happened to me Monday. I went in to reroute a kitchen sink vent so the Contractor could open up the demizing wall and bring in a bit more sunshine in a lakefront Condo.

The vent was full of cooties -- This immediately set off my 'Cootie Radar'.

I did a bit of legwork/research and discovered that somewhere along the line, somebody turned this vent into a kitchen sink drain for the upstairs unit.

I was lucky in this case -- There was a 2" waste stack four feet away I could reroute and wye the line into.

It was Gawdawful foul, though. 20+ years of kitchen cooties went down this flat vent before I cut into it.


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## Evolve (Jan 2, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Did that to a tee, wrote the invoice that explains 'the numerous code violations' that limits the scope of work to only replace what was leaking, reconnecting the system back to working order.


In that case you did what you could. Good job!


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

You didn't chain yourself to their kitchen table & stay until you had $30,000??

For shame!

:blink:


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

ILPlumber said:


> Can't run a new vent stack in the corner of a closet????



Can ya terminate a vent out the side of house, allowing for code restrictions for distance from open windows?


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Island sink drains and vent.Get it approved from your building department.



I think 7 fixture units on an 1.5 inch vent . Drill through the bottom plate go into attic and drill through the top plate and slide your vent pipe into wall to the attic. You can then tie it into the main vent out the roof or install a new roof vent.


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## AllAces777 (Nov 23, 2010)

Its a real shame. You did it right though, at least presenting her with the proper installation and proposal. I have been in this same exact situation numerous times now. The bad thing is, if your not willing to fix it the cheapest way possible, even with code violations, then they'll find someone who will, all the handy dans out there, and we lose out on the work.


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## eddiecalder (Jul 15, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Did that to a tee, wrote the invoice that explains 'the numerous code violations' that limits the scope of work to only replace what was leaking, reconnecting the system back to working order.


I also make note on the invoice when the customer opts for the cheaper route rather than be completely up to code. Good habit to make very detailed invoices.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Handy hacks can do what they want we have unfortunately rules to go by and putting it on an invoice that you intentionally ignored them will look bad if it bites you 
If there was a leak and you fixed it and didn't look or see anything else as its not your job to perform a plumbing inspection then you would have "plausible deniability" 
But as far as giving the option to do the right job that's what I would do just not on paper especially if you know that their not going for the big job anyway


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## eddiecalder (Jul 15, 2008)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> Handy hacks can do what they want we have unfortunately rules to go by and putting it on an invoice that you intentionally ignored them will look bad if it bites you
> If there was a leak and you fixed it and didn't look or see anything else as its not your job to perform a plumbing inspection then you would have "plausible deniability"
> But as far as giving the option to do the right job that's what I would do just not on paper especially if you know that their not going for the big job anyway


I do lots of maintenance and service work or a refrigeration company ( I am a Journeyman Plumber and apprentice Refrigeration Mechanic) and paperwork is very important. If I get sent to fix a leak, I fix the leak. Any work above and beyond of what I was dispatched to do I try to get approval from the customer. If the customer refuses I send in a recommendation to my office and the sales staff try once again to get the proper work needed to be up to code. The customers refusal is on my paperwork and the office paperwork. I did all I could do without working for free,I don't work for free (unless it's my screw up then I will fix my mistake on my own time). 

We do large contracts for national chains (think walmart, homedepot, london drugs) If we do something we were not approved to do we will not get paid. If it is a safety issue we will perform the work and they will pay if it's something we legally have to fix like refrigerant leaks. If everything I see had to be brought up to code all supermarkets would have to be completely redone. It can be very frustrating at times. All I can do is what the customer will let me do.....

Everything I install is up to code. If I fix a leak on something that is not up to code all the customer cares about is that the leak stopped.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)




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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

The picture above depicts the situation where the son of the mother created the piping arrangement where the drain is the 3/4" PVC line going up the wall and directly connected to the discharge off the washing machine. Extensions of the washing machine hoses to get through a small hole in the floor.


I really did not want to go full bore on this job, especially after opening the wall up.


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## eddiecalder (Jul 15, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> The picture above depicts the situation where the son of the mother created the piping arrangement where the drain is the 3/4" PVC line going up the wall and directly connected to the discharge off the washing machine. Extensions of the washing machine hoses to get through a small hole in the floor.
> 
> 
> I really did not want to go full bore on this job, especially after opening the wall up.


Wow thats much worse than I pictured. If she wont let you do it properly; walk away.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)




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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

You're looking at a lavatory sink (far right)

An intersecting Kitchen Sink drain (pvc to copper) 

And the 3/4" to 1.5" washing machine drain (pvc to galvanized to copper)


The black tape is where the leak exists right at the very bottom of the pipe, a small hole at that.


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## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

If she didn't want to pay to have it done right then I would have walked and refered her to Craigs list.:thumbsup:


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

I see a lot of scrap to cash in on at least. 

I think in this situation all you can do is give the options to her. Some people may not be able to afford to fix it right. You may have to do some "creative plumbing" to make it work for both of you. 

If you are worried about following the letter of the code exactly to avoid possible trouble, take some more pics of the before for your records.

The first thing she's gonna say is "Well it's been working fine for 15 yrs!". Then how will you look to her when you give her your plan of bringing it up to code. It is a slippery slope, she may think you are selling her a load when you are just trying to do the job right.


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## gatevalve (Jun 25, 2010)

Have the property declared an unsanitary nuisance and have it demolished.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)




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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

As you see, Tom and Magee...


I can't upsize because I'm connecting back to 1.5".

I can't go up because there's a beam, along with a lot of work where all washer boxes are 2". 

No vent to go through the roof if I go into the first floor.

No 2" to connect to anywhere, let alone 3 or 4". 

I used a mission no hub coupling reconnecting to the copper drain, but the reason I used an 1.5" fernco at the 3/4" dishwasher drain line is for the reason that IF that gets changed, or if there is a clog, straight shot into the drain line. I used wyes instead of tees on their back. Nothing I liked about this job but it's been a while since I've had to do this. 


Leaking is resolved, can't reroute that kitchen sink drain line either. The pedestal lavatory on the other side never gets used but the toilet will overflow before the sink will, since somebody wet vented over that toilet.

1948 plumbing has its drawbacks.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

If you had used a no hub band instead of the fernco it would be perfect. :laughing::jester:


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

I really can't believe what I'm reading on this.

This is my opinion on the matter. If you can't do it properly, then don't do it at all.

Just because someone hacked it in years ago doesn't mean that any PROFESSIONAL PLUMBER should repair it in similar fashion. It's not your fault that it failed. Who cares what it costs or what the customer may think when you tell them what has to be done and why. You are now complicit to and therefore responsible for an illegal plumbing installation.

If the customer cannot understand what you are telling them with respect to code requirements, then pull out your code book and walk them through it until they do understand it. It's your standing with the code official and possibly your license that is at stake here. If you can't bring yourself to explain it to the customer for fear of what they may think of you , then explain to them that they have a difficult and unusual circumstance and that you want to call in the plumbing inspector to gain his input as to what will be the proper way to procede. Let the inspector be the bad guy, he doesn't care how the ho feels about the plumbing code.

If the ho refuses to listen to either you or the inspector, walk away.

Have you really served your customer well by leaving them with a washing machine directly connected to a 3/4", unvented, drain line?


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## The real E.P. (Aug 9, 2011)

It would be nice if our job was that easy. So that all we needed to do was pull out our code books and spout off legal jargon to our customers and have them sign off on thousands of dollars worth of work..... It doesn't work that way we need to take ourselves off our high horse. Don't take me wrong I inform the client as much as possible and take the greatest
Pride in my job but we don't live in a perfect world sometimes people don't have the money to do thousands of dollars worth of work. That's my opinion and I understand what you are saying when you say walk away but I think your company would go out of business pretty quick


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

The real E.P. said:


> It would be nice if our job was that easy. So that all we needed to do was pull out our code books and spout off....


It would also be nice if the PZ was that easy, but it's not. You might want to hit the intro section prior to further spouting. 

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> As you see, Tom and Magee...
> 
> 
> I can't upsize because I'm connecting back to 1.5".
> ...


 That 1-1/2" copper DWV most likely went to a 2" cast iron hub.

I would have pulled off as much paneling as necessary to find out.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

In cases like that you have to ask customer what their budget is to do the work; she most likely wasn't planning on this unexpected expense.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

The real E.P. said:


> It would be nice if our job was that easy. So that all we needed to do was pull out our code books and spout off legal jargon to our customers and have them sign off on thousands of dollars worth of work..... It doesn't work that way we need to take ourselves off our high horse. Don't take me wrong I inform the client as much as possible and take the greatest
> Pride in my job but we don't live in a perfect world sometimes people don't have the money to do thousands of dollars worth of work. That's my opinion and I understand what you are saying when you say walk away but I think your company would go out of business pretty quick


 
Correct. Each situation is different.



Widdershins said:


> That 1-1/2" copper DWV most likely went to a 2" cast iron hub.
> 
> I would have pulled off as much paneling as necessary to find out.


 
Oh that's easy... but if there's a 2" hub it's buried under the concrete as 1.5" copper was coming out of the floor.


Now 'why' would you want to illegally reconnect (to code persay) back to a wet vent over a toilet? 

*Like I said, it's all wrong, every bit of it. This isn't a job where you take a leak and turn it into 5 grand scenario.*






Tommy plumber said:


> In cases like that you have to ask customer what their budget is to do the work; she most likely wasn't planning on this unexpected expense.


 
And we found two more discoveries in the opening of the wall. That limited the cost of expense to fix the problem.

Problems don't always fix code issues, to which so many homes have incorrect plumbing.


I talked to her and the 92 year old female friend of the 84 year old I worked for today. 

I'm a slam dunk with the elderly because I do what's expected of me, not go for the throat just because I want to make as much as possibly I can on each job.

This is why I'm constantly referred in these networks. This was a very rare occaision where I had to deal with the surrounding pipe issues and roll with it.


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## FEDguy (May 19, 2010)

I agree with Dunbar Plumbing. Not every job that we go on can be brought up to code or we'd be re-plumbing entire houses. Sometimes you just have to do the best that you can depending on the circumstances. The local inspectors that I work with understand that as well.


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

You did the right thing Dunbar:thumbsup: They aren't all rolling in dough.

When this was done originally, was there even a code in place?

I think all you did was replace existing, as much as needed to fix a leak. That alone would not require you to bring the whole place up to code IMO.


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