# copper damage from oil based flux (high res)



## Protech

Some one was asking about oil based flux damaging copper at one point and I just found some photos. Most copper leaks I cut out have the leak right on the pooled flux just like this photo. I also notice that if the pipe is cut in 1/2 and the flux is removed and the interior is wire brushed there is always a streak of heavy pitting right where the flux pooled and no where else.


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## futz

Isn't that strange! I've never seen such a thing. What brand of flux? How long after soldering till the water was turned on and flushed things out?

Must be extremely aggressive flux. 

The flux we're getting here lately sucks bad. It's hygroscopic, and absorbs so much water from the air that it refuses to stick to the pipe. I have to take my flux pot and whip it to get the puddles of water out of it. Then I have to heat it with the torch so it will stick to the pipe & fittings. I hate this crap. I've tried other types, but with the super tight fittings I'm getting lately, they don't work (not "lubey" enough).


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## Protech

All oil based flux with zinc chloride will do this. Flushing with water will not do anything to help. Go smear some petroleum jelly on something and pour some water on it and see if it rinses it away. Fat chance. If you are going to use oil based flux then you have to flush the system with a detergent/hot water solution.


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## Protech

Here is the shot of the repair.


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## futz

Protech said:


> All oil based flux with zinc chloride will do this. Flushing with water will not do anything to help. Go smear some petroleum jelly on something and pour some water on it and see if it rinses it away. Fat chance. If you are going to use oil based flux then you have to flush the system with a detergent/hot water solution.


Hmm... I don't believe we get oil based flux here. They don't put the ingredients on the can though, so I don't know. But I've never seen pitting like your picture, or holes eaten through the copper by the flux.


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## Protech

What type of flux do you use?


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## Titan Plumbing

C-Flux is what I like and use as much as possible, sometimes there is no need to even use solder. If you leave it for a while without water/air testing.......................


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## Protech

Cflux contains zinc chloride and *is not water soluble*.



Choctaw said:


> C-Flux is what I like and use as much as possible, sometimes there is no need to even use solder. If you leave it for a while without water/air testing.......................


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## Titan Plumbing

Protech said:


> Cflux contains zinc chloride and *is not water soluble*.


Well, I know that and if you re-read it was tounge-in-cheek.

But with that said, we are still allowed to use it here.


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## Protech

Just be cause you can, doesn't mean you should.


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## Titan Plumbing

Protech said:


> Just be cause you can, doesn't mean you should.


But at least I don't "sell" tankless, right.................hehe


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## futz

Protech said:


> What type of flux do you use?


Mostly this stuff, or other brands that are exactly the same and in the same kind of tub. I see it does have zinc chloride in it.:

















I really like this stuff, but it isn't "lubey" (it's a thick liquid) and makes already tight fittings totally impossible to get on the pipe. It's water soluble and wipes right off after soldering with a damp rag. Nice stuff if your fittings aren't too tight. Being a liquid though, you have to be careful not to spill it - I waste some time putting the lid back on after almost every use. I've dumped a few.


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## Protech

I'm not trying to start something just don't want anyone to get the wrong idea. I think this is a very important issue that just doesn’t get much attention.

Currently there is very little copper being installed in the state of Florida. The 2 reasons are cost and that people are just so sick of constant pinholes. If everyone had installed the copper correctly way back when, maybe there wouldn't be so much cpvc being slung all over the place now.



Choctaw said:


> Well, I know that and if you re-read it was tounge-in-cheek.
> 
> But with that said, we are still allowed to use it here.


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## Titan Plumbing

Protech said:


> I'm not trying to start something just don't want anyone to get the wrong idea. I think this is a very important issue that just doesn’t get much attention.
> 
> Currently there is very little copper being installed in the state of Florida. The 2 reasons are cost and that people are just so sick of constant pinholes. If everyone had installed the copper correctly way back when, maybe there wouldn't be so much cpvc being slung all over the place now.


Very true, I agree completely. We have real bad issues with pinholes here as well. Most are attributed to electrolysis.


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## Protech

That kester sp-30 is a definite pipe killer


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## SlickRick

Choctaw said:


> Well, I know that and if you re-read it was tounge-in-cheek.
> 
> But with that said, we are still allowed to use it here.


A lot of the time in our area it is C flux on repairs or nothing will take. wash off the outside and it does not corrode any worse than nokorode . I have not seen any of the others around here..


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## Titan Plumbing

Can't stand no corrode.............


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## user2091

water soluble nokorode is the way to go for domestic water systems. on commercial jobs regular nokorode. and just good ol brazing!


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## Protech

Copper pipe is copper pipe. I've never had any issues using water soluble flux.


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## futz

Protech said:


> That kester sp-30 is a definite pipe killer


Really! I've never seen anything like your pics here. Never heard anyone complain of the flux eating thru the pipe either. 

Could it be your copper? Your water? Different formulation of SP-30? Turbulence from undersized copper with high velocities? Sand scouring? I'm grasping at straws... 

Is your SP-30 hygroscopic like ours? It's insane how much water it sucks out of the air. This is a recent change in formulation - started maybe a couple years ago. This stuff used to be good. Now it's horrible!


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## SlickRick

Choctaw said:


> Can't stand no corrode.............


 
On new work it is all I have ever used . But on repairs I always have C Flux on hand..


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## Titan Plumbing

slickrick said:


> On new work it is all I have ever used . But on repairs I always have C Flux on hand..


I don't know why, it's really not how it performs, just something. A lot of my plumbers over the years had me buy it for them.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Water soluble flux is the #1 reason and the reason why I make $$$ when a customer attempts to use it for copper piping. 

Oatey #95 Tinning Flux whether it has an acid base, Oatey #5, both I believe have acid bases.


When anyone puts tons of flux on a solder joint, it's guaranteed problematic. 


A small tin for me lasts months...but I always have to replace sooner because of dirt or not willing to trust it. 

I think I've been using nokorode lately and I still don't like its adhesion to copper but after running 100' of copper yesterday it did fine.


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## Protech

Here is the bottom line. Oil soluble flux accelerates corrosion in copper. If you can't wash your flux away with water, you are just leaving a repair job for some one in 10-20 years.

I use pex for potable water so I really don't care. I just figured I'd let all the copper holics know how to put the stuff together so that it stands up a little better.


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## SlickRick

Protech said:


> Here is the bottom line. Oil soluble flux accelerates corrosion in copper. If you can't wash your flux away with water, you are just leaving a repair job for some one in 10-20 years.
> 
> I use pex for potable water so I really don't care. I just figured I'd let all the copper holics know how to put the stuff together so that it stands up a little better.


Thanks kid! :laughing:


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## user2091

i 'd rather do copper any time. nothing mechanical about pex. 50 yrs down the line my copper will still be holding in strong! and my reputation.


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## RealLivePlumber

:thumbup:


slickrick said:


> Thanks kid! :laughing:


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## Protech

Not if you’re using oil soluble it won't.

You should put a 50 year warranty on all of your installs since you are so confident in them.




bigdaddyplumber said:


> i 'd rather do copper any time. nothing mechanical about pex. 50 yrs down the line my copper will still be holding in strong! and my reputation.


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## Protech

Hey no problem pops. I'd even give you a job if you need one (provided you use water soluble)



slickrick said:


> Thanks kid! :laughing:


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## RealLivePlumber

Protech said:


> Not if you’re using oil soluble it won't.
> 
> You should put a 50 year warranty on all of your installs since you are so confident in them.


What is oil soluble?
Did you mean "oil based"?


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## Protech

I'm sorry, maybe I was being to technical.

You could also say non-polar.

It all means the same thing.

"Oil base" is sort of a laymen’s term.



RealLivePlumber said:


> What is oil soluble?
> Did you mean "oil based"?


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## RealLivePlumber

Touchy, touchy.

I really shouldn't, but here goes. 

Oil soluble is really more of a laymens term. 

First of all, I would have said "petroleum based", but I did not want to get too technical for you.

OK, easy now, Junior. Deep breath.

I was just wondering what you meant by oil soluble? No disrespect. I am not familiar with this kind of flux. All I use is Laco, or Nokorode. Is this oil soluble? or petroleum based?


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## Protech

All of those terms mean the same thing.

When you say "Oil soluble" it means that the solute can be dissolved buy a non-polar solvent. Petroleum based means the same thing. It simply means the active ingredient (zinc chloride for instance) is suspended in a petroleum solvent aka oil aka non-polar solvent. It all means the same thing just different terminology for different fields. A chemist would say "the solute is dissolved in a non-polar solvent". A laymen might say "its petroleum based". In the end it all means the same thing to the well educated.

I hope this helps.
~Junior


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## TheMaster

There are alot of chemical plants here and chemical engineers. I work for a husband and wife that are both chemists....she makes splenda...or did they closed up shop here.....He works for Degeussa(spelling may be off) chemical......they make some of the badest stuff in the WORLD. He smelled pvc glue once and picked up the can.....,he said it was some badass stuff. Anyway becareful with the flux's and brake cleaners,silicones,cleaner,primers,pvc solvents,etc. You never know when you may have an allergic reaction to a chemical that you have handled all your life.


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## Protech

Here is another one for the non-believers. Notice that the pinhole (circled in ball point pen) is right on the line of oil based flux that ran down the inside of the pipe. This is just another case where the oil based flux was not washed away with water flushing and remained on the pipe wall to corrode a hole in it.


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## SlickRick

Protech said:


> Here is another one for the non-believers. Notice that the pinhole (circled in ball point pen) is right on the line of oil based flux that ran down the inside of the pipe. This is just another case where the oil based flux was not washed away with water flushing and remained on the pipe wall to corrode a hole in it.


 
Is the wall of that copper still in good shape except for the pin hole?


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## Protech

Yes

It is only pitted where the line of flux is.


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## Protech

Give me a few minutes and I'll cut it in 1/2 for ya.


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## Protech

This first set is before wire brushing


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## Protech

Now after hitting it with a wire brush.


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## Protech

Do you still want to use oil based flux?


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## SlickRick

That's wild! Great shape except for the trail. We just don't see that around here and I don't know why. I just barely have any Nokorode on a brush, but I have seen guys put it on like mayo. And I should have ran across this problem? Is nokorode oil based?. I have never seen the brands you posted pictures of.


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## Protech

Nokorode makes an oil soluble and a water soluble version. 

It just takes a simple test. If you put a globe of it on something and rinse it away with water, it's water soluble. That's good. If it doesn't wash away then it's oil soluble, bad.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

This is what my main vendor stocks right here. Dont know if it is petroleum based or not. Brain fart, it does not like to come off in water. Hot water, and it will. Must be oil based.


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## Tankless

http://www.rectorseal.com/index.php?site_id=1&product_id=235

This is the directory of all their flux's. I have heard horror stories of the Aqua flux, so I still use the oil based...never a problem, but those pics don't lie. What is the best flux to use?


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## SlickRick

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> This is what my main vendor stocks right here. Dont know if it is petroleum based or not.


It's oil based. rectorseal says the oil base is to help protect against corrosion ? Do you have these pin holes in you area in Fl.


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## Tankless

slickrick said:


> It's oil based. rectorseal says the oil base is to help protect against corrosion ? Do you have these pin holes in you area in Fl.


 
That's funny because it says the same with Aqua flux:



> *NOKORODE® Aqua Flux™ is one of the very few paste fluxes available that meets ASTM B-813 standards requiring that fluxes be water "washable" and can be flushed from the piping system to prevent corrosion. For use with 95/5, 60/40, 50/50, 40/60 and other solders. Cream color.
> *





I didn't see where it said it won't corrode with the oil based stuff (hot / cold or regular)


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## Protech

I use oetey h2o flux. I can't tell the difference between that and their oil base stuff. The only time it could be a problem is if there is water in the line.



Tankless said:


> http://www.rectorseal.com/index.php?site_id=1&product_id=235
> 
> This is the directory of all their flux's. I have heard horror stories of the Aqua flux, so I still use the oil based...never a problem, but those pics don't lie. What is the best flux to use?


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## Protech

This is what I use


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## Protech

I've also tried this stuff but it's not very good. I sometimes have trouble getting it to take with the lennox stuff. Not recommended.


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## Tankless

That Lenox water soluable flux was the second one I tried. I have a barley used $20 tub of it still sitting on the shelf. I just had a hard time with it.


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## Protech

Yeah that stuff is crap. Oh what a suprise, that's what big box sells


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## SlickRick

Tankless said:


> That's funny because it says the same with Aqua flux:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't see where it said it won't corrode with the oil based stuff (hot / cold or regular)


 
Check it out.. characteristics. Special oil base protects the solder joint against corrosive attack.

http://www.rectorseal.com/files/239/dsreglarps.htm


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## GREENPLUM

The best flux in the world


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## SlickRick

GREENPLUM said:


> The best flux in the world


 


Where do you get it ?... Amway?


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## GREENPLUM

I made my supply house get it, the REP for it is "Delta-Q" ask your supply house.


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## Tankless

That's the exact same stuff that both my main supply houses carry. One guy there said it was expensive...I never asked how much


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## pauliplumber

I wonder if in Florida a corrosive type of flux was popular for a while? I see a lot of pinholes and 95% of the time it's type M copper thats atleast 20 years old, usually much older. The majority of pin holes I see are somwhere in the middle of the pipe where you wouldn't typically find flux. One of the main plumbing supplies here only stocks Nocorrode and utility flux, both of whichI believe are oil based. 

We have excellent water here, type m copper will last about 30-50years,
L will last a minimum 60 years, I see threaded brass frequently over a 100 years old. A lot of old victorian homes in MA.


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## SlickRick

pauliplumber said:


> I wonder if in Florida a corrosive type of flux was popular for a while? I see a lot of pinholes and 95% of the time it's type M copper thats atleast 20 years old, usually much older. The majority of pin holes I see are somwhere in the middle of the pipe where you wouldn't typically find flux. One of the main plumbing supplies here only stocks Nocorrode and utility flux, both of whichI believe are oil based.
> 
> We have excellent water here, type m copper will last about 30-50years,
> L will last a minimum 60 years, I see threaded brass frequently over a 100 years old. A lot of old victorian homes in MA.


 
I was wondering the same. We used nokorode on all of the commercial I have worked on for 35 yrs. Type L was always spec. But we just don't have that problem showing up even on older systems. But on the heating and cooling systems it woud have shown up by now.


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## Associated Plum

pauliplumber said:


> The majority of pin holes I see are somwhere in the middle of the pipe where you wouldn't typically find flux.


 
and on the top or sides.

We use C-Flux for copper and No-Korode for brass and lead.


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## SlickRick

Associated Plum said:


> and on the top or sides.
> 
> We use C-Flux for copper and No-Korode for brass and lead.


 

Maybe it is the fumes...Yea thats the ticket, fumes..... I'm just sayin!


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## Master Mark

*The Best Flux You Can Buy*

OATY #95 TINNING FLUX......

That is the absolute best on the market.

never turns green, always cleans up nice.....

nothing else compares ....

we prefer the #95 tinning flux, 

Most water soluable brands are harder to work with..

.


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## ILPlumber

I can't really tell a performace difference between water soluble and regular flux.

When I run 3" or bigger copper, the water soluble will turn green very quickly in the colder weather. I never fit a bunch of pipe up ahead of time. I'm afraid to let the flux sit that long.


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## Protech

And another


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## TheMaster

I cut some 30 yr old copper out last saturday and it had a flux line in it but there was no pipe damage. I think your problems regional.


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## Protech

You didn't happen to keep it did you?


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## TheMaster

Protech said:


> You didn't happen to keep it did you?


 I put most of it right back in service but I have some left in the van but didn't check it for the flux line...I assume its there. The pieces I checked were used as air chambers and I had to make stubouts....I used the air chambers as stubouts to save myself from wasting caps and the pipe was still good.


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## Protech

My theory is that it's a combination of oil based flux and heavy chlorination. I don't see as many problems on well systems and when I do it's not from flux oxidation. It would make sense that you aren't seeing any pitting on an air chamber due to the lack of chlorinated water flow. Next time you cut into a tee, take a few snaps before and after hitting the piece with a wire brush (on the inside). I'd like to see if it is in fact a regional thing and if so what are the underlying reasons (water chemistry?) for central Florida being effected.


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## TheMaster

Protech said:


> My theory is that it's a combination of oil based flux and heavy chlorination. I don't see as many problems on well systems and when I do it's not from flux oxidation. It would make sense that you aren't seeing any pitting on an air chamber due to the lack of chlorinated water flow. Next time you cut into a tee, take a few snaps before and after hitting the piece with a wire brush (on the inside). I'd like to see if it is in fact a regional thing and if so what are the underlying reasons (water chemistry?) for central Florida being effected.


 I was relocating fixtures...so I have the tee and angle stops they used...I cut the air chambers off the tee's and angle stop stubouts. So I can do that...its still on my junked out ass needing to be cleaned van.:laughing: Give me a few days to get to it and if I dont remind me of it. I will cut them open and post some pics.


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## SlickRick

Protech said:


> You didn't happen to keep it did you?


You have had me checking every fitting I cut out. I will start taking some pictures as I can for comparison.


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## SewerRatz

I do not think its an issue of oil based flux by itself. I think its more of an issue of the oil based flux that is also acid based. I seen many joints where they used the acid based fluxes turn green. Where as Nokorode is acid free but still oil based, I never seen on of them joints turn green at all.


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## Protech

Just cut another one open for kicks. Sure enough same cause of failure, flux corrosion.

Pics to follow


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## plumber p

I believe that all flux has to be water-soluble if use on potable systems. Not sure why or where you would use an oil base flux. Do these lines get chlorinated prior to use (its code here)?


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## Protech

I know of no such code here(though it should be). Even if there was, how would an inspector ever know?



plumber p said:


> I believe that all flux has to be water-soluble if use on potable systems. Not sure why or where you would use an oil base flux. Do these lines get chlorinated prior to use (its code here)?


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## Protech

Pics


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## Protech

more pics


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## Protech

last set of pics


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## Protech

These were all scaled down so that the thread would accept the uploads. I have the high res version and can crop and enlarge any areas that may be in question if anyone needs it.

I also have the cross sectioned manifold stored at the shop.


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## stillaround

I have to applaud you for the research you do on this. Pics are great...and the analysis too.


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## Tommy plumber

stillaround said:


> I have to applaud you for the research you do on this. Pics are great...and the analysis too.


 

Same here. I enjoy the pics of cross-sectioned cut pipe and fittings.


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## mssp

I have used nokorode for 24 yrs now and have never had any problems city or well systems. I am thinking along the lines of a Florida issue. Any of you other Florida guys having this problem?


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## ToUtahNow

It's like anything else, the problem in and of it's self is not the petroleum based flux. The problem is when excessive flux is used (contrary to code) there is a lot of flux left inside the pipe. That excessive flux can and does cause pitting in all water conditions. This is not a new problem it is an old problem which is finally being addressed by the Codes which are compensating for sloppy workmanship.

http://www.copper.org/about/pressreleases/1997/IndustryUpdate.html

Mark


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## greenscoutII

I have a theory on this.....

I'm from Colorado Springs and in that area I almost never see pin holed copper tubing, even when it's 50+ years old. However, in the Pueblo area, just 40 miles to the south, it is a constant problem.

Since I have plumbed in both areas, I can tell you that the materials used (flux) don't really vary much between the two cities. Mainly guys use #5 or Nokorode. What _is_ different is the water. Pueblo has a lot more minerals than the Springs does.

So, my theory is that the combination of _too much_ flux AND the hardness of the water cause this to happen. The absence of one or the other factor seems to alleviate the problem.

Don't know if my theory will stand up to scientific scrutiny, but it is based on my real world observations.


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## Protech

I agree!


Level of chlorination plays a huge role as well. I see very few problems on unchlorinated well systems. The few problems I have seen on wells were due to bacteria that eat the copper. It's pretty common to see chlorine levels in the 3-4 ppm in central FL on municipal water. Yes, 3-4 ppm.

Like I've said before, the flux acts like a catalyst. If it's oil based flux then the catalyst remains inside the pipe forever and does damage when the conditions are right (and they are in most of Florida). 



greenscoutII said:


> I have a theory on this.....
> 
> I'm from Colorado Springs and in that area I almost never see pin holed copper tubing, even when it's 50+ years old. However, in the Pueblo area, just 40 miles to the south, it is a constant problem.
> 
> Since I have plumbed in both areas, I can tell you that the materials used (flux) don't really vary much between the two cities. Mainly guys use #5 or Nokorode. What _is_ different is the water. Pueblo has a lot more minerals than the Springs does.
> 
> So, my theory is that the combination of _too much_ flux AND the hardness of the water cause this to happen. The absence of one or the other factor seems to alleviate the problem.
> 
> Don't know if my theory will stand up to scientific scrutiny, but it is based on my real world observations.


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## 1plumb4uall

It looks like that Laco flux yuk my Dad swore by it, it turned green before you left the job.


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## mongo

Now this was an educational thread for me. Looks like I'm gona have to hit the books for some research. The pictures speak volumes.


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## Will

I know that the flux played a role in this, but it looks like the copper is not insulated from the concrete. You think that could have played a role with the corrosion?


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## PlumberJake

A friend of mine called me over Thanksgiving because he had a leak in his basement. He was putting up ceiling tiles and noticed a small drop of water on a water line over head. He wiped it with his finger and it started spraying. I jumped in the truck and headed over. The pinhole was between two 1/2" Tees under the main floor bathroom. I didn't think about it until this thread, but it must have been over-fluxed. I remember that the pipe was very thin on the bottom side, which is where extra flux would've settled 30 years ago when the house was plumbed. Now I wish I would've kept the piece of copper and took some pics.

Jake


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## Protech

Will said:


> I know that the flux played a role in this, but it looks like the copper is not insulated from the concrete. You think that could have played a role with the corrosion?


Not in the samples i've taken


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## Will

Is this from flux or something else? It was behind a water heater I was replacing.


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## Protech

We would need to see a cross section


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## plumber666

I've used Kester in BC since '86, never heard of or seen a problem. Are you a conspiracy theorist?


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## Airgap

This caught my eye today....


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## Prscptn Plmbng

Out here we have major pin hole problems most of which are in the middle of a pipe, I'm sure that flux has its share of leaks but from what I am finding is that turbulence is the biggest culprit... Join that with chloromine and it makes type "L" leak in two years...even a bump of flux that didn't get washed off will cause enough turbulence to errode a pin hole... The turbulence separates the ammonia from the chlorine and makes a very corrosive mix...

Prescription Plumbing Inc 
P.O.Box 6378 
Oceanside, CA 92502


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## Protech

:blink: Come again?



Prscptn Plmbng said:


> Out here we have major pin hole problems most of which are in the middle of a pipe, I'm sure that flux has its share of leaks but from what I am finding is that turbulence is the biggest culprit... Join that with chloromine and it makes type "L" leak in two years...even a bump of flux that didn't get washed off will cause enough turbulence to errode a pin hole... *The turbulence separates the ammonia from the chlorine and makes a very corrosive mix*...
> 
> Prescription Plumbing Inc
> P.O.Box 6378
> Oceanside, CA 92502


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## Protech

Your water may not react with it. I have already stated that it seems to be a regional thing. 



plumber666 said:


> I've used Kester in BC since '86, never heard of or seen a problem. Are you a conspiracy theorist?


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## Widdershins

Airgap said:


> This caught my eye today....
> 
> View attachment 9102



Looks like a water soluble flux and Mapp/Acetylene joint.

It's pretty easy to overheat with Mapp or Acetylene and burn the flux out before the solder has time to flow properly -- The blackening of the tubing above the 90 is a dead giveaway.

I use to use Mapp gas all the time prior to the UPC's water soluble flux requirement.


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## Prscptn Plmbng

Protech said:


> :blink: Come again?


The sanitizer our here is an ammonia-chlorine blend...so when water flowing thru un-reamed pipe gets separated from the oxygen (and other gases) by means of turbulence the water becomes more aggressive... 

Here its a pin hole no where near a joint or flux

Prescription Plumbing Inc 
P.O.Box 6378 
Oceanside, CA 92502


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## Protech

That doesn't seem like sound chemistry. You wouldn't happen to have a cross section where said condition occurred at would you?

Pipe ends that have not been debured can infact cause erosion-corrosion at sufficiant velocity and with aggressive water. This whole ammonia-chlorine seperation thing is news to me though.



Prscptn Plmbng said:


> The sanitizer our here is an ammonia-chlorine blend...so when water flowing thru un-reamed pipe gets separated from the oxygen (and other gases) by means of turbulence the water becomes more aggressive...
> 
> Here its a pin hole no where near a joint or flux
> 
> Prescription Plumbing Inc
> P.O.Box 6378
> Oceanside, CA 92502


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## Plumber3653

http://www.miexresin.com/files/pdfs/TechNote_Chloramines_V0308.pdf
This is an excellent and quick read for info on Chloramines.


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## Plumber3653

Sounds like the cons outnumber the pros. See last statement of the text.


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## Protech

I started a blog about this. 

http://protechplumbingllc.com/plumbing/pro-tech-plumbing-blog

Check back from time to time. It should be updated a few times a year with more cut away photos.


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## NYC Plumber

Wipe your joints when your finished, dont overheat, dont use too much flux and it will last forever.
I knew someone who use to cool their joints with flux, it would be green and nasty looking within a week.
Keep a wet rag with you and wipe the joints and pipe after your done.


----------



## Protech

Wipe your joints all you want, that's not going to help. It's the flux on the inside of the pipe and fittings that does all the damage.

Ya hafta use water soluble flux and use it sparingly.



NYC Plumber said:


> Wipe your joints when your finished, dont overheat, dont use too much flux and it will last forever.
> I knew someone who use to cool their joints with flux, it would be green and nasty looking within a week.
> Keep a wet rag with you and wipe the joints and pipe after your done.


----------



## NYC Plumber

Protech said:


> Wipe your joints all you want, that's not going to help. It's the flux on the inside of the pipe and fittings that does all the damage.
> 
> Ya hafta use water soluble flux and use it sparingly.


You are wrong.


----------



## Protech

No, I am not.


----------



## NYC Plumber

You may think your right but you are def wrong.


----------



## Widdershins

NYC Plumber said:


> You may think your right but you are def wrong.


 Convection/Capillary Action pulls the solder into the pipe and fitting when you're heating it, right? So why wouldn't it also pull flux into the pipe and fitting?

And if you agree it gets pulled into the pipe and fitting due to convective currents/capillary action and it isn't water soluble, then the next logical assumption is that it's going to pool inside of the pipe.


----------



## plumb nutz

Doesn't flux have a lower melting point then any soldier being used? At which point either it should dissipate or the temp of the fitting was nog hot enough to begin with. Only time I see real issues with flux is when the previous plumber decides to wipe his joint with flux to cool or clean the joint and does a very poor job of wiping it off.

Furthermore, round here, nasty looking flux joints last decades. Rather than singling out one product or process, wouldn't your location, water quality, and process have more to do with it then simply stating "its the flux"

As a side note. I hate the water based flux. It's utterly worthless when used on a wide range of copper age quality


----------



## NYC Plumber

Widdershins said:


> Convection/Capillary Action pulls the solder into the pipe and fitting when you're heating it, right? So why wouldn't it also pull flux into the pipe and fitting?
> 
> And if you agree it gets pulled into the pipe and fitting due to convective currents/capillary action and it isn't water soluble, then the next logical assumption is that it's going to pool inside of the pipe.


If you know how to solder your not going to use too much flux where it "pools" inside the pipe.
I do know that whenever i see joints that were not wiped properly they get green and corode.
And i also know that when the joint is wiped properly you can come back 20 yrs later and its fine.
Water soluble flux is crap, dont glob the flux on, wipe the joint and it will be fine i promise.


----------



## NYC Plumber

plumb nutz said:


> Doesn't flux have a lower melting point then any soldier being used? At which point either it should dissipate or the temp of the fitting was nog hot enough to begin with. Only time I see real issues with flux is when the previous plumber decides to wipe his joint with flux to cool or clean the joint and does a very poor job of wiping it off.
> 
> Furthermore, round here, nasty looking flux joints last decades. Rather than singling out one product or process, wouldn't your location, water quality, and process have more to do with it then simply stating "its the flux"
> 
> As a side note. I hate the water based flux. It's utterly worthless when used on a wide range of copper age quality


I agree with everything here, well put.


----------



## Protech

NYC Plumber said:


> I agree with everything here, well put.


Really, well how would you explain this then?

I shot this video earlier today.

Before the repair: 













During the repair. This video was not edited for time. Skip to 2:20-4:00 for the important stuff: 




Still not a believer?


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

So how do you prevent a leak like that?? Use water soluble flux?


----------



## Protech

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> So how do you prevent a leak like that?? Use water soluble flux?


Yes, and use just enough. Try and flush with hot water as soon as possible if possible.

Also, I'm not sure that flux attacks pipes as aggressively everywhere as it does in our Polk county water supply. Your water may be different and not react with it. I know the guys up in the north east don't see many pin hole leaks from it. It seems to be regional. Start checking old copper that you cut out. Cut a few pieces down the center and wire brush the flux away. If there is no pitting underneath the flux deposits, you might be OK.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

Ok what brand of flux do you use. I use nokorode. But not the water soluble one. I heard it doesn't work well. I'm not in service but would like to think that I'm providing the best install possible... And one more dumb ? I was taught that when you clean pipe and flux it that oil from hands or other places would make it not take properly. So why would you use an oil base flux??


----------



## Protech

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Ok what brand of flux do you use. I use nokorode. But not the water soluble one. I heard it doesn't work well. I'm not in service but would like to think that I'm providing the best install possible... And one more dumb ? I was taught that when you clean pipe and flux it that oil from hands or other places would make it not take properly. *So why would you use an oil base flux??*


The oil is just holding the zinc chloride which turns acidic when heated and keeps metal oxides from forming. The upside to oil soluble flux is that water won't wash it away where water soluble flux can be washed away. It takes a bit more skill to use water soluble flux but it ultimately yields a better finished product.

Skin oils can cause metal oxides to form quickly. If the flux cannot dissolve the metal oxides away, the solder won't bond there. Aggressive fluxes will remove light metal oxides when heated but you want to avoid oxidation as much as possible. Remember the golden rule of sweating copper "cleanliness is next to godliness".

The amount of fluxing chemicals are a double edged sword. The more agressive they are, the better they dissolve metal oxides. However, the more agressive they are, the more corrosion if left in the pipes and exposed to water.


----------



## Protech

I have been using oatey water soluble lately. Any water soluble flux works though. Lennox water soluble seams less agressive and burns very clean. It much harder to work with though. In a new construction situation, I would lean more torwards the Lennox stuff or another mild water soluble flux.


----------



## TX MECH PLUMBER

Protech said:


> I have been using oatey water soluble lately. Any water soluble flux works though. Lennox water soluble seams less agressive and burns very clean. It much harder to work with though. In a new construction situation, I would lean more torwards the Lennox stuff or another mild water soluble flux.


Ok. I mite try some of that and see how it takes. I am great at soldering but am always striving to perfect my technic


----------



## SlickRick

Florida seems to be the state with the most flux issues. Here, the vast majority of pinholes occur on systems that are on, or have been on well water. Either Florida has a bunch of plumbers using flux like mayonnaise, or there has to be a issue with the water, maybe both.


----------



## Phat Cat

Maybe FL plumbers were just smarter and intentionally created work for the next generation of plumbers.


----------



## easttexasplumb

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> So how do you prevent a leak like that?? Use water soluble flux?


 
Sharkbites lots of sharkbites. :laughing:


----------



## Widdershins

SlickRick said:


> Florida seems to be the state with the most flux issues. Here, the vast majority of pinholes occur on systems that are on, or have been on well water. Either Florida has a bunch of plumbers using flux like mayonnaise, or there has to be a issue with the water, maybe both.


 We have some of the same issues here with pinholes caused by excessive use of oil based flux. I cut a pin hole leak out of a section of 1/2" copper tube at my Vets clinic on Wednesday. There were other mitigating factors besides the use of oil based flux -- Electrolysis from improper connections and a 8' section of 3/4" copper tube used to store several hundred wire coat hangers in a very humid section of the basement. You could literally poke a screwdriver through the top of that section of pipe.

I'll try to figure out the camera I bought yesterday and post some photo's of the piece of 1/2" later on today.


----------



## Widdershins

easttexasplumb said:


> Sharkbites lots of sharkbites. :laughing:


 I've made a number of repairs on pin holes with sharkbites.

You cut the tubing right at the pinhole, ream the inside of the tube with a fitting brush and put it back together.

And yes, I know the section of tubing should be replaced, but these leaks are in Seattle's oldest 24 hour athletic club where water shut downs for repairs are measured in minutes.

It's a 22 story building repiped back in the early 80's. The Mechanical contractor did a lot of really stupid things during the repipe; Steel riser clamps, steel loop hangers, steel strut clamps and no protection from contact with steel electrical conduit.

The leaks started getting real bad in 2000, so the decision to epoxy line the tubing was made. That's taken care of the vast majority of pinhole leaks. A downside to the epoxy lining, though, is that you can't make solder repairs without damaging the epoxy.


----------



## SlickRick

Widdershins said:


> We have some of the same issues here with pinholes caused by excessive use of oil based flux. I cut a pin hole leak out of a section of 1/2" copper tube at my Vets clinic on Wednesday. There were other mitigating factors besides the use of oil based flux -- Electrolysis from improper connections and a 8' section of 3/4" copper tube used to store several hundred wire coat hangers in a very humid section of the basement. You could literally poke a screwdriver through the top of that section of pipe.
> 
> I'll try to figure out the camera I bought yesterday and post some photo's of the piece of 1/2" later on today.


I know there must be many plumbers that try to determine the cause of problems, not just make repairs.

We all use basically the same materials, installed in the same manner. Like you said about the mitigating factors, there must be factors involved other than just the flux alone, or we would all be seeing the same results across the country. I have been hearing about the problems in Florida since at least the early '80's.

I had a rep. contact me after a insurance job, that long ago, trying to sell me a anode that was installed near the meter. It was developed in Florida. He gave me the insurance statistics for copper leaks in Florida, and it was staggering. Prolly like 10 to 1


----------



## 1703

I do not claim to be an expert, but since reading some of protech's posts on this subject, I've taken some copper that has pinholes and split it with a band saw. 

Some of them where several years old, some just a few years. I have seen,in some but not all, globs of flux still laying inside right where the pinhole is.

That's the extent of my research on this subject. So in my uninformed opinion, I think there is some validity to the flux corrosion argument.

I've also found it interesting that in a neighborhood of spec homes where I know they were all built at the same time by the same builder and plumbing contractor, that one house can fight pinholes and the one next door has never had any problems whatsoever. Different flux? Different tubing? Different plumber?


----------



## Protech

SlickRick said:


> I know there must be many plumbers that try to determine the cause of problems, not just make repairs.
> 
> We all use basically the same materials, installed in the same manner. Like you said about the mitigating factors, there must be factors involved other than just the flux alone, or we would all be seeing the same results across the country. I have been hearing about the problems in Florida since at least the early '80's.
> 
> I had a rep. contact me after a insurance job, that long ago, trying to sell me a anode that was installed near the meter. It was developed in Florida. He gave me the insurance statistics for copper leaks in Florida, and it was staggering. Prolly like 10 to 1


:yes:

It's easy to see why we are the cpvc / pex capitol of the USA.


----------



## Protech

Colgar said:


> I do not claim to be an expert, but since reading some of protech's posts on this subject, I've taken some copper that has pinholes and split it with a band saw.
> 
> Some of them where several years old, some just a few years. I have seen,in some but not all, globs of flux still laying inside right where the pinhole is.
> 
> That's the extent of my research on this subject. So in my uninformed opinion, I think there is some validity to the flux corrosion argument.
> 
> I've also found it interesting that in a neighborhood of spec homes where I know they were all built at the same time by the same builder and plumbing contractor, that one house can fight pinholes and the one next door has never had any problems whatsoever. Different flux? Different tubing? *Different plumber*?


That would be my guess. 

I have observed the same thing. I can go to houses in a neighborhood on one treet constantly but not the next street over. Same water supply, same subdivision, same builder. The only thing that could have varied was the actual plumbers on site. I think one guy was slinging the flux like mayonnaise while the other guy was being conservative. It's the only explanation that makes sense and the field samples support this theory.


----------



## Optimus Primer

It really doesn't take that much flux to solder a joint. I'm always on my helpers for over fluxing. Nothing worse than seeing 5 pounds of flux around the joint of a 90 after they push it on.


----------



## Protech

house plumber said:


> It really doesn't take that much flux to solder a joint. I'm always on my helpers for over fluxing. Nothing worse than seeing 5 pounds of flux around the joint of a 90 after they push it on.


A match head sized glob is all you need to coat both surfaces in a 3/4" fitting and pipe.


----------



## Protech

Something else worth mentioning. There is nothing wrong with using oil soluble flux so long as you are willing to hook up a pump to the system and flush it with solvent or a strong heated detergent solution after construction.

That would remove ALL flux. I'd just use water soluble though. Much easier.


----------



## 1703

What do you think of these?


----------



## Protech

Colgar said:


> What do you think of these?


NOT flux corrosion. That is cavitation/impingement damage for sure!

Notice to smooth undercutting of the pipe walls right next to flow obstructions. That pipe is undersized for th eflow that is being forced through it and/or has suspended particles in the water.


----------



## 1703

Protech said:


> NOT flux corrosion. That is cavitation/impingement damage for sure!
> 
> Notice to smooth undercutting of the pipe walls right next to flow obstructions. That pipe is undersized for th eflow that is being forced through it and/or has suspended particles in the water.


That was my thought as well.

I may have some others sitting around the shop. I'll see if I can find them.


----------



## Widdershins

Here's some photo's of the pinhole leak I mentioned this morning.


----------



## Protech

tough to say. Can you take some crops of the high res images? We need to get a closer look. Not enough detail.


----------



## plumb nutz

Is that a brass or copper fitting? Can't tell from my phone...


----------



## Protech

Looks like copper to me.


----------



## Widdershins

Protech said:


> tough to say. Can you take some crops of the high res images? We need to get a closer look. Not enough detail.


 Prolly should have sprung for the 12 megapixel camera, eh?


----------



## ironandfire

Jesus Christ, did these guys flux that tube with a butter knife.


----------



## OldSchool

It amazes me that nobody questioned the copper pipe itself...

The copper may have impurities in it which is the main cause of the pin holes...


----------



## Protech

OldSchool said:


> It amazes me that nobody questioned the copper pipe itself...
> 
> The copper may have impurities in it which is the main cause of the pin holes...


Negative. That theory was disproved years ago via lab testing. Some rumors will never die though.


----------



## OldSchool

Protech said:


> Negative. That theory was disproved years ago via lab testing. Some rumors will never die though.


Rumors ???? What rumors

What you think the copper you are buying is 100% pure? or any metal for that matter.

It is virtually impossible to get 100% pure.

Here is some proof

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_copper_pipe_a_pure_substance#ixzz1SNCLZifB
100% pure metal is actually quite difficult (some may argue impossible) to achieve. Copper pipe can be produced from one of 5 alloys under the "*Standard Specification for Seamless Copper Pipe"*. They range from being 99.9% pure copper to containing a maximum of 0.04% phosphorus. While in a laboratory it would not be considered pure, in everyday life. . . copper pipe is basically all copper.



http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techref/tpf_stds/tube_pipe_stds.html
Copper pipe is almost pure copper manufactured to the requirements of *ASTM B 42 - Standard Specification for Seamless Copper Pipe, Standard Sizes*. It may be manufactured from any of five (5) copper alloys (C10200, C10300, C10800, C12000, C12200) that all conform to the chemical composition requirements of alloys containing a minimum of 99.9% Copper (Cu) and a maximum of 0.04% Phosphorous (P). 

http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techref/tpf_stds/Cu_Alloy_TPF.PDF


So much for your so called rumors Protech.....

Not all copper pipe is created equally it all depends on the manufacture of the pipe....​


----------



## SlickRick

Unless Florida has used the same manufacture all these years, or has extremely bad luck, other factors have to come into play. The only thing I can see that would be exclusive to Florida would be their water,soil and every mayonnaise, flux spreading plumber in the country has migrated to Florida.


----------



## Redwood

I think to a large part that foul swill they call water down there has something to do with it.... :laughing:

From what I see they use some gawd awful amounts of chemicals to maintain sanitary water conditions and is the only place I know of where there are numerous municipal systems supplying RO water...

The chemistry of the water in that state has got to be mind boggling.... :laughing:


----------



## OldSchool

It wouldn't amaze me one bit that maybe .. just maybe some of the copper used in florida came from china just like its drywall....

If like Protech suggest that it is do to 100% on the flux eating the copper... then every single home one after the other would be leaking with no exceptions...

So the real question should be why does it only had on certain pipes and not others....

The pipe itself has to be looked at... where did the batch come from... and is it just that run of pipe the manufacture did.. 

The second batch of pipe the manufacture did... may be of a lot better quality than the first....

From the pictures... it is evident that something is happening but one can not conclude that it is the flux eating the copper or is it eating the impurities in the copper pipe.


----------



## SlickRick

Are we just in denial that it could be the water?


----------



## Redwood

I found this to be of some interest on the subject...

http://www.copper.org/environment/NACE02122/nace02122c.html


----------



## Widdershins

Redwood said:


> I think to a large part that foul swill they call water down there has something to do with it.... :laughing:
> 
> From what I see they use some gawd awful amounts of chemicals to maintain sanitary water conditions and is the only place I know of where there are numerous municipal systems supplying RO water...
> 
> The chemistry of the water in that state has got to be mind boggling.... :laughing:


 I'd be curious to find out if any of the purveyors of RO processed water reintroduce any minerals into the supply before it enters the supply system.

I won't allow a full house RO system to be used on any of my jobs unless, at the very minimum, a calcium tank is added to the discharge side of the system.

If they balk, then the warranty is null and void.


----------



## Widdershins

Redwood said:


> I found this to be of some interest on the subject...
> 
> http://www.copper.org/environment/NACE02122/nace02122c.html


 Cool article. Thanks.


----------



## OldSchool

I found this disscussion page http://www.finishing.com/304/79.shtml

I think this person maybe onto something

February 14, 2010
I stumbled on to your site looking for something else but I'll throw in my two cents. I'm an electrician. I was working for a Country Club and members complained of "tingling" sensation while showering. Sure enough there was about 5 volts AC on the plumbing lines to Earth. I checked all grounding and found nothing wrong. We tried turning off different circuits with no luck and finally shut down the entire building. The voltage was still there. We thought it might be coming from the phone lines or cable and eliminated those sources and the voltage was still there. I called the power company and they sent out a tech. I duplicated what I did with him and he was as baffled as I was. A few days later the power company sent out an engineer and he told me he had seen this before. He called out some linemen to check the connections on several transformers in the area (mounted on the ground with underground services - not on poles). He found one about 250 yards from the building with a bad neutral connection. They corrected it and problem solved. No more stray voltage and no more tingling. Who would have thought a transformer a couple hundred yards away could induce stray voltage into the copper plumbing lines because of a bad neutral connection?
*Wesley Burchardt*
- Lutz, Florida


----------



## Widdershins

OldSchool said:


> I found this disscussion page http://www.finishing.com/304/79.shtml
> 
> I think this person maybe onto something
> 
> February 14, 2010
> I stumbled on to your site looking for something else but I'll throw in my two cents. I'm an electrician. I was working for a Country Club and members complained of "tingling" sensation while showering. Sure enough there was about 5 volts AC on the plumbing lines to Earth. I checked all grounding and found nothing wrong. We tried turning off different circuits with no luck and finally shut down the entire building. The voltage was still there. We thought it might be coming from the phone lines or cable and eliminated those sources and the voltage was still there. I called the power company and they sent out a tech. I duplicated what I did with him and he was as baffled as I was. A few days later the power company sent out an engineer and he told me he had seen this before. He called out some linemen to check the connections on several transformers in the area (mounted on the ground with underground services - not on poles). He found one about 250 yards from the building with a bad neutral connection. They corrected it and problem solved. No more stray voltage and no more tingling. Who would have thought a transformer a couple hundred yards away could induce stray voltage into the copper plumbing lines because of a bad neutral connection?
> *Wesley Burchardt*
> - Lutz, Florida


 We had a problem here a few months ago where a dog was killed by stray voltage from a sidewalk lamp post. The utility checked citywide and found several more leaking stray voltage to utility covers.


----------



## SlickRick

Widdershins said:


> We had a problem here a few months ago where a dog was killed by stray voltage from a sidewalk lamp post. The utility checked citywide and found several more leaking stray voltage to utility covers.


We have had problems around here as well. We have a retreat, that when the stood on the shower drain top and touched the shower head, they would get a shock. I had been shocked working on some of the lines in random areas of the camp. Engineers finally corrected the problem.

I have one house that is eating water heaters, no others in the hood are affected. I told them to call a good sparky to check for stray voltage.


----------



## Redwood

OldSchool said:


> I found this disscussion page http://www.finishing.com/304/79.shtml
> 
> I think this person maybe onto something
> 
> February 14, 2010
> I stumbled on to your site looking for something else but I'll throw in my two cents. I'm an electrician. I was working for a Country Club and members complained of "tingling" sensation while showering. Sure enough there was about 5 volts AC on the plumbing lines to Earth. I checked all grounding and found nothing wrong. We tried turning off different circuits with no luck and finally shut down the entire building. The voltage was still there. We thought it might be coming from the phone lines or cable and eliminated those sources and the voltage was still there. I called the power company and they sent out a tech. I duplicated what I did with him and he was as baffled as I was. A few days later the power company sent out an engineer and he told me he had seen this before. He called out some linemen to check the connections on several transformers in the area (mounted on the ground with underground services - not on poles). He found one about 250 yards from the building with a bad neutral connection. They corrected it and problem solved. No more stray voltage and no more tingling. Who would have thought a transformer a couple hundred yards away could induce stray voltage into the copper plumbing lines because of a bad neutral connection?
> *Wesley Burchardt*
> - Lutz, Florida


Protech and I had a discussion on this a couple of years ago...
I wasn't able to find the thread but it started out on the water supply carrying current.

Electricity will always follow the path of the least resistance...
Even with Neutral and Ground bonded in the panel, the current imbalance due to 120 volt loads in a building will normally flow on the neutral back to the center tap of the transformer on the pole instead of the ground because the earth ground has a higher resistance.

A neutral fault on a neighboring building will go into the earth ground but will seek an easier path back to the neutral or, center tap. If it finds the grounded water supply on a neighboring building to be the easier path to neutral it will use that path. 

This is why it is very important for plumbers to test the water supply of a building to see if it is current carrying, and connect a jumper wire across the cut, before cutting the pipe, to avoid the possibility of a fatal shock. This electrocution hazard is present even when the main breaker of the building you are working on is off, because the neutral connection remains connected and is not switched.

However, going back to the corrosion subject AC Voltage has little corrosive potential as it goes in 2 directions so it removes then redeposits the metal with each cycle with little end effect.

DC voltage on the other hand flows in one direction so it would remove only and have a much greater effect...


----------



## Protech

Widdershins said:


> We had a problem here a few months ago where a dog was killed by stray voltage from a sidewalk lamp post. The utility checked citywide and found several more leaking stray voltage to utility covers.


Trouble with that is, AC voltages don't cause any appreciable corrosion. It's DC voltages that do the damage.


----------



## Protech

Great link redwood.

Here is a table from that link:


----------



## Protech

OldSchool said:


> Rumors ???? What rumors
> 
> What you think the copper you are buying is 100% pure? or any metal for that matter.
> 
> It is virtually impossible to get 100% pure.
> 
> Here is some proof
> 
> Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_copper_pipe_a_pure_substance#ixzz1SNCLZifB
> 100% pure metal is actually quite difficult (some may argue impossible) to achieve. Copper pipe can be produced from one of 5 alloys under the "*Standard Specification for Seamless Copper Pipe"*. They range from being 99.9% pure copper to containing a maximum of 0.04% phosphorus. While in a laboratory it would not be considered pure, in everyday life. . . copper pipe is basically all copper.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techref/tpf_stds/tube_pipe_stds.html
> Copper pipe is almost pure copper manufactured to the requirements of *ASTM B 42 - Standard Specification for Seamless Copper Pipe, Standard Sizes*. It may be manufactured from any of five (5) copper alloys (C10200, C10300, C10800, C12000, C12200) that all conform to the chemical composition requirements of alloys containing a minimum of 99.9% Copper (Cu) and a maximum of 0.04% Phosphorous (P).
> 
> http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techref/tpf_stds/Cu_Alloy_TPF.PDF
> 
> 
> So much for your so called rumors Protech.....
> 
> Not all copper pipe is created equally it all depends on the manufacture of the pipe....​


I never said copper was pure. You DID say you thought the leaks were coming from the impurities in the metal. That would be the part I am disagreeing with and calling a rumor. I have never found a single independent test done that has concluded that impurities in the pipe caused the failures. I have found a few test done that DISPROVE impurities as a viable cause.

See here: http://www.nuflowtech.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=xACZkJ-iX_U=&tabid=83


----------



## Protech

OldSchool said:


> It wouldn't amaze me one bit that maybe .. just maybe some of the copper used in florida came from china just like its drywall....
> 
> If like Protech suggest that it is do to 100% on the flux eating the copper... then every single home one after the other would be leaking with no exceptions...
> 
> So the real question should be why does it only had on certain pipes and not others....
> 
> The pipe itself has to be looked at... where did the batch come from... and is it just that run of pipe the manufacture did..
> 
> The second batch of pipe the manufacture did... may be of a lot better quality than the first....
> 
> From the pictures... it is evident that something is happening but one can not conclude that it is the flux eating the copper or is it eating the impurities in the copper pipe.


I pull out cerro and mueler just like everyone else. I do not think we are buying copper any different than the rest of the nation. The evidence points to the flux as the cause. There has been little evidence to support your claims. As such, they are just that, "claims" and nothing more.


----------



## OldSchool

And your suggestion that it is the total cause of the flux is no more than a claim....

There would have to be other factors involved just beside the flux... either that every home in florida with copper would have leaks all at the same time.


----------



## Plumberman

If it was just the copper I would think that there would be more cases of it across the country. Not just in Florida.


----------



## plumb nutz

I'm pretty sure that it does happen I'm more places than Florida, but Florida is a hot bed for the issues...

I'm not going to agree that oil based flux is a major cause of pinholes. Again, 50-60 year old houses with no issues of pinholes whatsoever. Houses 10 years old, few, but far between. But I am willing to say that with water conditions, impurities in the water, irregularlites or imperfections, with manufacturing all play a part as well as craftsmanship...

Maybe 10-15 more years from now I may see a joint I made that had a pinhole due to flux, but I'll take the odds of winning the lottery first...

Here in the northern have of the old dominion pinholes that I have worked on the most are happen away from any joints, like 4' from the first joint...

Here the odd thing is here if I find one I can cut out a swath of copper and find two or three more yet to be developed that have the same spread. One 20' of 3/4 I once replaced had 15 points @13" apart...


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## RealLivePlumber

The flux rapidly gets washed away by water.

I don't care if it is oil based, or coal tar based.....Or liquid asphalt based...


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## Protech

So you are suggesting that inferior copper was manufactured en mass and then selectively be shipped to certain isolated locations along the time period of about a quarter century?

Sorry, I just don't see it.


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## Protech

RealLivePlumber said:


> The flux rapidly gets washed away by water.
> 
> I don't care if it is oil based, or coal tar based.....Or liquid asphalt based...


You think water is going to wash a big blob of greasy flux cleanly? Really?
I've shown you several photos and a video of it and you are saying you aren't convinced?


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## Redwood

Protech said:


> You think water is going to wash a big blob of greasy flux cleanly? Really?
> I've shown you several photos and a video of it and you are saying you aren't convinced?


He's got a summer home on "De Nile"...:laughing:

We've heard it just vanishes, ceases to exist, and a number of other things...
But maybe you just need to scoop it out and use it over again as proof...


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## plumb nutz

Protech said:


> So you are suggesting that inferior copper was manufactured en mass and then selectively be shipped to certain isolated locations along the time period of about a quarter century?
> 
> Sorry, I just don't see it.


Actually, yea, to some extent...
You think that all pipe is made in one region then shipped all over? In one country? That one region could possibly have gotton a couple thousand tons shipped and distributed to one state... I'm saying yes...

An I also saying the way y'all describe the water down there, be hard pressed to bathe in it let alone drink it...


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## Protech

plumb nutz said:


> Actually, yea, to some extent...
> You think that all pipe is made in one region then shipped all over? In one country? That one region could possibly have gotton a couple thousand tons shipped and distributed to one state... I'm saying yes...
> 
> An I also saying the way y'all describe the water down there, be hard pressed to bathe in it let alone drink it...


It doesn't make any sense that you would find defective materials in the same places for over 25 years. Copper pipe is sold as a commodity and product is moving all over the country by giant manufacturers. Plumbing supply houses change vendors some times more than yearly. 

I raise you a step further and say that not only is it impossible to drop different types of copper pipe metallurgy that consistently to such varied locations for that length of time, I'll also say that it would be difficult to achieve that kind of delivery precision even if it was INTENDED for that length of time.


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## plumb nutz

First, its highly doubtful, other than in the case of a natural disaster, that products made from different regions would be shipped from one end of the earth to the other with the weights and quantity involved.

To say that one regional manufacturing plant had an issue with its process that wasn't caught after tons of pipe were made well then you got your head in the sand... All products get recalled at one time or another due do an error made somewhere along in its creation...

Not once did I even consider anything to be intentional. But to say with the size of the building boom y'all had down there, yea, I can say that large amounts may have come from a bad lot, highly probable.

To say that the biggest reason why in your neck of the woods a product that has been used for what 100 plus years is at fault for all that leaky copper... That's a little bit of a stretch...

That article posted about copper failures, by what was it the copper institute? Have to check... Funny how it put the blame on flux? Then on electrical issues...?

Course with y'alls over development and lower water table and high humidity, I could definitely see and issue with grounding there...

Seems to me that that would be a better reason for pinholes in general due to the larger geographical area it encompasses...


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## Protech

Water heaters, solar panels, and valves are all produced in one location and then shipped all over north America. Copper pipe is no different.

For instance, there are a few hundred solar collectors in my county that were manufactured in California in the 80s. When I place an order for copper pipe at my supplier, I may get a different brand at different times of the year based on who is selling at what price. It's a commodity. It's moving around all the time. To say that 1 locations received a defective product from several manufacturers spanning 25 years straight is pretty far fetched. So central Florida received the bunk batch from several manufacturers preferentially for 25 years while down in Miami and up in Mobil received none? Really?

What is it about central Florida that allowed use to get such perfect delivery of this defective product for over 25 years?



plumb nutz said:


> First, its highly doubtful, other than in the case of a natural disaster, that products made from different regions would be shipped from one end of the earth to the other with the weights and quantity involved.
> 
> To say that one regional manufacturing plant had an issue with its process that wasn't caught after tons of pipe were made well then you got your head in the sand... All products get recalled at one time or another due do an error made somewhere along in its creation...
> 
> Not once did I even consider anything to be intentional. But to say with the size of the building boom y'all had down there, yea, I can say that large amounts may have come from a bad lot, highly probable.
> 
> To say that the biggest reason why in your neck of the woods a product that has been used for what 100 plus years is at fault for all that leaky copper... That's a little bit of a stretch...
> 
> That article posted about copper failures, by what was it the copper institute? Have to check... Funny how it put the blame on flux? Then on electrical issues...?
> 
> Course with y'alls over development and lower water table and high humidity, I could definitely see and issue with grounding there...
> 
> Seems to me that that would be a better reason for pinholes in general due to the larger geographical area it encompasses...


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## Optimus Primer

you should see what salt air does to copper. next time I'm at a job on the water I'll take a picture.


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## Redwood

What I wonder is why did all this defective copper stop in central Florida without landing in Dade County....

Solve that mystery and I might buy your theory...:laughing:


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## Widdershins

plumb nutz said:


> Seems to me that that would be a better reason for pinholes in general due to the larger geographical area it encompasses...


 Frankly, I think the issue in Florida has more to do with the source/supplier/purveyor of potable water than anything else.

I will buy the corrosive properties of oil based flux as a mitigating factor -- I've seen far too may examples of copper tube failure in the Pacific Northwest, where most potable water sources are glacial, which is essentially a filtered source that is replenished every 8 months.

Still, I have to believe that Florida's issues are primarily about the source of the supply.


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## Widdershins

house plumber said:


> you should see what salt air does to copper. next time I'm at a job on the water I'll take a picture.


 I've seen firsthand the damage that can be done to steel bottomed boats moored in salt water marshes in Florida.


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## Widdershins

Redwood said:


> What I wonder is why did all this defective copper stop in central Florida without landing in Dade County....
> 
> Solve that mystery and I might buy your theory...:laughing:


 Do you remember the octagonal copper tube from Mexico that started showing up in the early 90's?

I know the issue was nationwide, because I was shuttling all across the country working on Habitat for Humanity jobs and it seemed every where I went the octagonal tube followed me.


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## NYC Plumber

Widdershins said:


> Frankly, I think the issue in Florida has more to do with the source/supplier/purveyor of potable water than anything else.
> 
> I will buy the corrosive properties of oil based flux as a mitigating factor -- I've seen far too may examples of copper tube failure in the Pacific Northwest, where most potable water sources are glacial, which is essentially a filtered source that is replenished every 8 months.
> 
> Still, I have to believe that Florida's issues are primarily about the source of the supply.


I would agree, it has to be something florida is doing to their water... And it is scary whatever it is.
It just doesnt seem to be that big of an issue anywhere else.
These are constants everywhere: You have bad plumbers all over who don't know how to solder, you have people cutting corners all over on cheap material, so the only thing that can be different is the water supply and how they treat it, no?


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## Widdershins

NYC Plumber said:


> I would agree, it has to be something florida is doing to their water... And it is scary whatever it is.
> It just doesnt seem to be that big of an issue anywhere else.
> These are constants everywhere: You have bad plumbers all over who don't know how to solder, you have people cutting corners all over on cheap material, so the only thing that can be different is the water supply and how they treat it, no?


 I do think that treatment plays a large part.

Scary thing is, I think we'll see a lot more failures once desalinization becomes a major provider in the supply market.


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## NYC Plumber

Widdershins said:


> I do think that treatment plays a large part.
> 
> Scary thing is, I think we'll see a lot more failures once desalinization becomes a major provider in the supply market.


I would agree with that. Do you know any areas using that now? I dont know the whole story but from what i read it seems like texas is a prime candidate to start investing in this.


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## Widdershins

NYC Plumber said:


> I would agree with that. Do you know any areas using that now? I dont know the whole story but from what i read it seems like texas is a prime candidate to start investing in this.


 I don't.

OTOH, I imagine the Gulf states will be the first to embrace the technology.


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## plumb nutz

Just as an example:

http://www.muellerindustries.com/about-us/worldwide-locations

Yea, more than one plant in more than one location...

And just as a learning tool... It's easier to ship the processed copper alloy in ignots then manufacture the pipe and fittings here then distribute, not an all in one location...

Contaminantion of piping material could occur with the ore, the alloy, the shipment, the process, the transportation to the distribution center, transportation to the wholeseller, etc...

Bty, at the distribution center, the store huge amounts of product, as products are made in batches, not everything at one time....

In addition red... You saying the frequency of copper failures is substantially less than that of protechs? How much more? More or less the answer is there... Not a blanket, its the flux... (it may figure in, but not a major reason)


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## Redwood

plumb nutz said:


> Just as an example:
> 
> http://www.muellerindustries.com/about-us/worldwide-locations
> 
> Yea, more than one plant in more than one location...


Look it's your theory why don't you polish it and present it...
I'm not buying into it.... Not yet you have work to do...

Here is something you may find helpful in building your case...

How Do They Do That? Making Copper Plumbing Tube

Now based on what you now know about Mueller and the making of copper tube what you have to do in order to prove your theory is show how so much of the "Defective Copper" lands in Protech's central Florida area...

The southern part of the state has nowhere near the amount of copper tube failures the central region has... (By the way I'm in Connecticut not Florida but I have followed this issue for a while)

Now I'll give you one more tidbit of information to show you that you have to go deeper with your research. Muellers plant in Fort Pierce, Florida is a plastics plant not a copper tube plant... :laughing:

Good luck and go build your case, but I firmly believe you are wasting your time with that theory...

I firmly believe based on what I see that the corrosion is an issue with flux and the water conditions... Prove me wrong!


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## plumb nutz

I'm not building a case, not trying to prove a theory...

I cannot believe, however, that issues are purely fluxed based...

To say that all copper from a manufacture is perfect and free of irregularities or abnormalities is purely insane...

I have worked in manufacturing and have seen molds go bad and it wasn't caught for years after untold amounts of product went through. None of it was corrected. It was stored and sold...

Pinholes are common... Why? I really don't care... Up here they don't appear for 20+ years and everything has a natural life, it needs to be replaced, repaired, whatever... It keeps the hours flocked which pays my bills...

I will continue to use my good ol'utility paste until the last drop is gone... And skeet skeet skeet that stuff all over the place...

J/K


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## Protech

plumb nutz said:


> I'm not building a case, not trying to prove a theory...
> 
> I cannot believe, however, that issues are purely fluxed based...
> 
> To say that all copper from a manufacture is perfect and free of irregularities or abnormalities is purely insane...
> 
> I have worked in manufacturing and have seen molds go bad and it wasn't caught for years after untold amounts of product went through. None of it was corrected. It was stored and sold...
> 
> Pinholes are common... Why? I really don't care... Up here they don't appear for 20+ years and everything has a natural life, it needs to be replaced, repaired, whatever... It keeps the hours flocked which pays my bills...
> 
> I will continue to use my good ol'utility paste until the last drop is gone... And skeet skeet skeet that stuff all over the place...
> 
> J/K


Well, I just hope it doesn't turn out like Florida up there. About 10 years ago, everyone got so sick of all the pin hole leaks that they started building new homes with cpvc and pex. Now, the price point is so low you CAN'T build a house with copper.

You may be screwing the next generation in your area into having no choice but to run plastic.Hopefully your water is compatible with the flux....


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## plumb nutz

Almost all the new houses here are done in cpvc, few, very few, are done with pex... Copper for new houses are usually a custom house only...

I've even seen commercial work in cpvc...

It's already happened here...


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## Prscptn Plmbng

Widdershins said:


> I've made a number of repairs on pin holes with sharkbites.
> 
> You cut the tubing right at the pinhole, ream the inside of the tube with a fitting brush and put it back together.
> 
> And yes, I know the section of tubing should be replaced, but these leaks are in Seattle's oldest 24 hour athletic club where water shut downs for repairs are measured in minutes.
> 
> It's a 22 story building repiped back in the early 80's. The Mechanical contractor did a lot of really stupid things during the repipe; Steel riser clamps, steel loop hangers, steel strut clamps and no protection from contact with steel electrical conduit.
> 
> The leaks started getting real bad in 2000, so the decision to epoxy line the tubing was made. That's taken care of the vast majority of pinhole leaks. A downside to the epoxy lining, though, is that you can't make solder repairs without damaging the epoxy.


You can solder the epoxied piping, you just can't get it any hotter than needed to flow the solder, for the six years I worked in the pipelining business that was the only way we fixed the guys fck ups... they are just covering their a** and warranty... the biggest downside of epoxy is the lack of qualified personnel to install it, and the management which have no experience installing it... but I guess its got a ten year insurance program.... I mean warranty


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## Prscptn Plmbng

Widdershins said:


> Prolly should have sprung for the 12 megapixel camera, eh?


Is this on the hot or cold water side, and what was connected to the mip?


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## Prscptn Plmbng

OldSchool said:


> Rumors ???? What rumors
> 
> What you think the copper you are buying is 100% pure? or any metal for that matter.
> 
> It is virtually impossible to get 100% pure.
> 
> Here is some proof
> 
> Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_copper_pipe_a_pure_substance#ixzz1SNCLZifB
> 100% pure metal is actually quite difficult (some may argue impossible) to achieve. Copper pipe can be produced from one of 5 alloys under the "Standard Specification for Seamless Copper Pipe". They range from being 99.9% pure copper to containing a maximum of 0.04% phosphorus. While in a laboratory it would not be considered pure, in everyday life. . . copper pipe is basically all copper.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techref/tpf_stds/tube_pipe_stds.html
> Copper pipe is almost pure copper manufactured to the requirements of ASTM B 42 - Standard Specification for Seamless Copper Pipe, Standard Sizes. It may be manufactured from any of five (5) copper alloys (C10200, C10300, C10800, C12000, C12200) that all conform to the chemical composition requirements of alloys containing a minimum of 99.9% Copper (Cu) and a maximum of 0.04% Phosphorous (P).
> 
> http://www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/techref/tpf_stds/Cu_Alloy_TPF.PDF
> 
> 
> So much for your so called rumors Protech.....
> 
> Not all copper pipe is created equally it all depends on the manufacture of the pipe....


Seems to me that the copper now that we buy that is 99% copper is worse than the copper from 50+ when there were other metals allowed...


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB

The worst case of copper pipe decay that I have seen was at a military training building the 3" cop L was full of pin holes and the wall thickness was like paper this was not flux based they were grounding some crazy electronics and stuff to this pipe at the main as I couldn't disconnect these things and they don't seem to care I'm sure its due for a repipe soon 
For the record I brazed without flux as I was taught


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## Protech

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> The worst case of copper pipe decay that I have seen was at a military training building the 3" cop L was full of pin holes and the wall thickness was like paper this was not flux based they were grounding some crazy electronics and stuff to this pipe at the main as I couldn't disconnect these things and they don't seem to care I'm sure its due for a repipe soon
> For the record I brazed without flux as I was taught


Proly DC grounding.


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## Widdershins

Prscptn Plmbng said:


> You can solder the epoxied piping, you just can't get it any hotter than needed to flow the solder,


 And by the time you get it hot enough you've burned out the epoxy.


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## Widdershins

Prscptn Plmbng said:


> Is this on the hot or cold water side, and what was connected to the mip?


 Cold feed and the mip was connected to a 1/2"x3/4" galvanized bullhead tee.


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## Plumber Jim

I am just wondering. I have seen some of your pictures of pipes with what looks like signs of a blob of flux right at where the pin hole is. Seeing as how it seems to be a big problem there in Florida and not as much of a problem everywhere else, Do you think it is because the plumbers in Florida when this stuff went in didn't know how to just use a tiny bit of flux rather than half the can? or do you think there is another part of this that combined with the flux has caused the pinholes? I can't deny the pictures seem cut and dry. maybe they imported some Chinese plumbers when that stuff went in? :laughing:


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## Protech

Plumber Jim said:


> I am just wondering. I have seen some of your pictures of pipes with what looks like signs of a blob of flux right at where the pin hole is. Seeing as how it seems to be a big problem there in Florida and not as much of a problem everywhere else, Do you think it is because the plumbers in Florida when this stuff went in didn't know how to just use a tiny bit of flux rather than half the can? or do you think there is another part of this that combined with the flux has caused the pinholes? I can't deny the pictures seem cut and dry. maybe they imported some Chinese plumbers when that stuff went in? :laughing:


I'm sure that's a factor.


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## Prscptn Plmbng

Widdershins said:


> And by the time you get it hot enough you've burned out the epoxy.


not the stuff we used...done it more times than I would of liked

Prescription Plumbing Inc 
P.O.Box 6378 
Oceanside, CA 92502


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