# Pex Failures



## GAN

Was going over an article on Linked In. This company was seeing around one of these a week. Pex installers beware........


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## Rix

I have a couple green rings in my attic....i've rented this house for 3 years and i believe it was repiped in the mid 90s and they used clearish 1st generation pex with brass fittings...in terms of work, i just found a similar looking 90 that developed a pinhole, and we just finished a pex repipe of an early 90s house that had 5 leaks on the copper...maybe lightning related? really hope that the pex we have installed (viega and now we use sharkbite) holds up for longer than their 25-year warranties...


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## OpenSights

I've seen that before. What causes it? I just cut it out and replace.


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## Debo22

The rings look too close to the fitting. I think you need about 1/4" of pex showing. I use Uponor so I don't know for sure.


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## Plumbus

I don't have any experience with pex.
That said, are these issues due to installation or are they generic to the product?


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## Fatpat

I have not taken the pex plunge... yet.
But I don't do repipes, they are too many repipe companies here that will do a 1200sq one bath house with permits for $3200.

I can't compete and I don't want to compete.
I have pro press type L in my house, we will see how long it lasts


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## Debo22

Fatpat said:


> I have not taken the pex plunge... yet.
> But I don't do repipes, they are too many repipe companies here that will do a 1200sq one bath house with permits for $3200.
> 
> I can't compete and I don't want to compete.
> I have pro press type L in my house, we will see how long it lasts


Take the plunge, your existing customers would rather have you repipe their house than one of those companies. I tell them those companies will send out a bunch of guys that don't speak English and they do inferior work. I don't do copper repipes anymore because being a small shop that would tie me up for too long doing it properly.


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## GAN

Here is some information on this.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/pex-piping-problems-failures-derek-bradfield

http://www.coengineers.com/preventable-problems-with-pex/

https://www.bigclassaction.com/settlement/rti-plumb-pex-plumbing-class-action-settlement.php

http://audetlaw.com/investigations/uponor-wirsbo-plumbing-system-lawsuit/


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## dhal22

We do repipes with pex regularly. Just sold a big one today for $22,000, of course that's not just new pipe. Did one for $9000 last week.

Pex, polybutylene, galvanized, lead pans, Glacier Bay, pay us to put it in and pay us to take it out later.


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## SHR Plumber

GAN said:


> Was going over an article on Linked In. This company was seeing around one of these a week. Pex installers beware........


Yeah...This article and Linked In are by a major STAINLESS STEEL PIPE manufacturer. Surprise, surprise they found faults with their main competing pipe? Huh, who'd of thunk it... Although we all know most piping systems have had failures due to product or installation errors, I call BS on this "article". This "article" is just a thinly veiled advertisement for a specific brand of stainless steel pipe.


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## sparky

GAN said:


> Was going over an article on Linked In. This company was seeing around one of these a week. Pex installers beware........


it is the water quality reacting to the brass fitting causing this,this is why I use the plastic surname pex fittings


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## OpenSights

sparky said:


> it is the water quality reacting to the brass fitting causing this,this is why I use the plastic surname pex fittings


When we switched from everloc to crimp, I wasn't happy. Quality is poor in comparison imho. But we use the polly fittings too. 

Right now, if we go back to reheau we're looking at $700 for a tool and buying fittings and sleeves by the case. We do repipes, but enough to invest and my Master will be retiring in five years, unless I kill him first. Have I ever said he's an azzhole?


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## GAN

SHR Plumber said:


> Yeah...This article and Linked In are by a major STAINLESS STEEL PIPE manufacturer. Surprise, surprise they found faults with their main competing pipe? Huh, who'd of thunk it... Although we all know most piping systems have had failures due to product or installation errors, I call BS on this "article". This "article" is just a thinly veiled advertisement for a specific brand of stainless steel pipe.


More than one article. 

Notice of Class action isn't an advertisement for any steel company.

Community Engineering is not related.

Neither are John & Helen McGregor as plaintiffs and Audet & Partners LLC. as attorneys.


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## HonestPlumb

About three years ago, nearing 35 years in the trade, my son started to work on me about, getting a Rigid 200B Propress tool and jaws for Propress and Viega Pex. I was adamant, that the only water piping I would do was sweat copper ! I had read and seen all the "hack" jobs, and class action law suits. Then he convinced me to borrow the tool, for a steam boiler auto feed with a bypass, in ProPress copper. The next day I ordered a 200B with 1/2" to 1 1/4" ProPress and 1/2" and 3/4" Viega Pex Jaws. The majority of use, is with ProPress copper, but there are several jobs that using the pex, was acceptable for. The speed of roughing in four or five bathrooms, is no comparison, as opposed to sweating copper. I only use the brass Viega Pex fittings with the sleeve with holes to make sure it is "home" before it is pressed. I use "Fosta Pex" for my hot water heat lines, for risers, and to and from the boiler piping. It has a thick insulated coating on it. The tool, Propress set of jaws, and the two Viega Pex Jaws, with batteries and charger, ran about $2300. The amount of hours saved in labor, never having to worry about fires, smoke alarms, sucking in flux fumes, etc, was really worth "biting the bullet" ! After two + years, have yet to have any problems. The Viega Pex fittings, allow you to spin the fitting, or pipe after pressing, in case you don't line up. They have "Mega Press" Jaws for black pipe, for steam, and gas. The tool that presses at 7200psi is required. Still a bit leery of those, yet. Still rather cut and thread my steel. As well, the set of Jaws 1/2' to 2" alone are $2300 !! Rigid and Milwaukee came out with their version of a "one handed" tool. Convenient if your holding something in place with one hand, and you can open the jaws,and press with the other hand. They are light, not as expensive, but mainly limited to pex, and smaller ProPress copper. There is going to come a time, that it will be possible to rough in a house from your truck !! It just wont be in "my" time !!


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## Eddy k

A friend of mine joined the union and moved to Alaska about 15 years ago, after a year of working there he told me soldering copper was for a caveman.


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## Eddy k

Meaning all they do is pro press


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## OpenSights

I've seen propress in two houses around here now. Looks sloppy to me. Don't get me wrong, crimped pex looks sloppy to me too and I have to use that crap because rehau is no longer available here.


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## indyjim

Pro press and boiler water don't seem to mix, and there is a bit of a learning curve to keep it from looking like a bag of smashed *******s. It is fast, and a lot prefab can be done at the shop. I generally just use it to get a valve in quickly or a fast repair. 



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## HonestPlumb

OpenSights said:


> I've seen propress in two houses around here now. Looks sloppy to me. Don't get me wrong, crimped pex looks sloppy to me too and I have to use that crap because rehau is no longer available here.


Agreed in the fact that if someone does not take pride in their work, even sweated copper, and PVC can look like hell. Using the better quality brass Viega fittings, that are an inserted type of fitting, with an external sleeve with small holes to make sure the piping is inserted fully, along with the Pex being properly secured it can be done neatly. When it comes to ProPress, which is strictly copper, the fittings are actually thicker, and the same "L", or "M" tubing is used, and again, if someone who takes pride in their work installs it, there is no difference. There certainly is no difference in performance.


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## skoronesa

HonestPlumb said:


> About three years ago, nearing 35 years in the trade, my son started to work on me about, getting a Rigid 200B Propress tool and jaws for Propress and Viega Pex. I was adamant, that the only water piping I would do was sweat copper ! I had read and seen all the "hack" jobs, and class action law suits. Then he convinced me to borrow the tool, for a steam boiler auto feed with a bypass, in ProPress copper. The next day I ordered a 200B with 1/2" to 1 1/4" ProPress and 1/2" and 3/4" Viega Pex Jaws. The majority of use, is with ProPress copper, but there are several jobs that using the pex, was acceptable for. The speed of roughing in four or five bathrooms, is no comparison, as opposed to sweating copper. I only use the brass Viega Pex fittings with the sleeve with holes to make sure it is "home" before it is pressed. I use "Fosta Pex" for my hot water heat lines, for risers, and to and from the boiler piping. It has a thick insulated coating on it. The tool, Propress set of jaws, and the two Viega Pex Jaws, with batteries and charger, ran about $2300. The amount of hours saved in labor, never having to worry about fires, smoke alarms, sucking in flux fumes, etc, was really worth "biting the bullet" ! After two + years, have yet to have any problems. The Viega Pex fittings, allow you to spin the fitting, or pipe after pressing, in case you don't line up. They have "Mega Press" Jaws for black pipe, for steam, and gas. The tool that presses at 7200psi is required. Still a bit leery of those, yet. Still rather cut and thread my steel. As well, the set of Jaws 1/2' to 2" alone are $2300 !! Rigid and Milwaukee came out with their version of a "one handed" tool. Convenient if your holding something in place with one hand, and you can open the jaws,and press with the other hand. They are light, not as expensive, but mainly limited to pex, and smaller ProPress copper. There is going to come a time, that it will be possible to rough in a house from your truck !! It just wont be in "my" time !!



We do it the same way. We still sweat some copper for service work, cheaper to stock sweat fittings than propress. We only use brass viega fittings with the exception being test rigs or temporary heat. The pex can look nice if you take your time. It's still way faster than copper. I don't like propress because even when you do try really hard to get it square something ends up getting tweaked and it isn't perfect. I keep a bender in the van so I don't have to sweat as many joints, that's my time saver.

As far as leaks, a couple times a year we find mouse holes chewed in regular pex, Never in fosta pex. Mice have to chew to keep their teeth short just like any other rodent and they often just chew it trying to get past it. I would love to put some peanut butter on some and set up a camera to watch the mouses face when he gets hit with 95psi from a city line pre prv!!

For corrosion leaks in brass pex fittings, we only really see that on heat lines where the antifreeze has gone bad. Our city and well water is great and few houses get pinholes in their copper.

As for propress leaks I could chalk almost every single one up to improper cleaning or make up and bad antifreeze. Even on new pipe you need to be careful of surface imperfections or scratches. Propress is inherently flawed that way, it seals on the outside of the pipe which is usually not treated well.

It's worth noting that there are 3 different orings for propress available depending on the fluid you are conveying. It's a pain in the butt to try and make sure to swap them all but still faster than sweating right?

I think the future is upsized fostapex with quality plastic fittings. Cheap, bendable, no flow restriction. People get pissed when their new 3 story house is sized like copper and then they need a booster pump because 1/2" pex ain't really 1/2".


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## Paulie B

Fatpat said:


> I have not taken the pex plunge... yet.
> But I don't do repipes, they are too many repipe companies here that will do a 1200sq one bath house with permits for $3200.
> 
> I can't compete and I don't want to compete.
> I have pro press type L in my house, we will see how long it lasts


I wish I could get that kind of money for a one bath repipe. Be closer to $2000 around here. 

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## Protech

GAN said:


> Was going over an article on Linked In. This company was seeing around one of these a week. Pex installers beware........


That looks like a brass fittings failure to me, not a pex failure. Any brass fitting on any type of piping can fail. I don't see what makes this specific to pex.


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## Protech

For decades I have been told using pex is a bad idea and it will come back to bite me. Thousands of jobs and decades later I have yet to have a failure.

To each their own though.


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## GAN

After they changed the fittings to reduce the restriction, I can't say I can really remember a pipe failure, always fitting related from the installer.

Earlier you just to be aware of under sizing with the inserts.


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## czplumbing

From My experience well water causes a lot of pex fittings to fail. Also had a problem only on resert line . This is why I went to uponor. But If it was me copper all the way


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## CT-18

Back in the day Shell/Dupont had an issue with crimp rings that turned into a huge lawsuit. My bro in law owned a mobile home and was awarded cash for a repipe.


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## 5onthefloor

Protech said:


> For decades I have been told using pex is a bad idea and it will come back to bite me. Thousands of jobs and decades later I have yet to have a failure.
> 
> To each their own though.


Check out my thread about mice chewing through the pex

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## czplumbing

I see it a lot on resert lines and was told from superstore that its a ground issue especially on resert runs. Electrolysis can happen


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## Grimmeute

I haven’t had any issues with pex. I use Uponor and the stainless crimp style. I don’t like the copper ring style. Reminds me of the old grey polybutylene days. 
I plumbed a 26,000 sq ft Home, almost 10 yrs ago, in pex. Only time be back there recently is because the 16 Eternal tankless water heaters are failing now. Pretty much 3-4 at a time.


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