# Soldering Copper



## brownplumber22 (Nov 19, 2012)

Just wanted to get some opinions , how do you guys feel about soldering copper ? Personally I feel in ten years no one will solder in new construction , I don't like this as I love to solder and enjoy commercial work because its 90% copper . I just feel like its a dying art what do u think


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## brownplumber22 (Nov 19, 2012)

brownplumber22 said:


> Just wanted to get some opinions , how do you guys feel about soldering copper ? Personally I feel in ten years no one will solder in new construction , I don't like this as I love to solder and enjoy commercial work because its 90% copper . I just feel like its a dying art what do u think


With all this press to connect and push to Connect it seems like solder besides repairs and add on will not be a new construction thing soon .


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## LEAD INGOT (Jul 15, 2009)

I personally feel that all of the craftsmanship is being sucked out of our trade. America will follow suit, right behind the lowest bidder, for the worst toilet.


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## Ishmael (Dec 9, 2009)

brownplumber22 said:


> Just wanted to get some opinions , how do you guys feel about soldering copper ? Personally I feel in ten years no one will solder in new construction , I don't like this as I love to solder and enjoy commercial work because its 90% copper . I just feel like its a dying art what do u think


I think you are correct. I do residential plumbing, and just finished a 3 1/2 bath house (new construction). I did it all in copper, and honestly it only took 2 days. Probably could've done pex in one day, but - let's face it - I don't care how neat someone is, pex just looks like hell. As long as I can still make money and use copper, I will.


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## bcp2012 (Oct 27, 2012)

Up here in Manitoba I would say 98% of new residential construction is in pex. You might find the odd new house that has copper in it. Last house I did in copper was my brothers. I don't mind pex but if I can I will by buy 20' straight lengths for new construction. It looks a lot neater then the coiled stuff. No one wants to spend the extra $ for copper and the labour anymore.

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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Do most of you stub out with pex? I had never seen it until I moved to OK. Here they are pexing to the WH and all.


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## brownplumber22 (Nov 19, 2012)

Agree I think no joint will hold up like a solder joint these propress fittings are no more then a shark bite on steroids and what did we all think about those when they 1st hit the market . I think propress has its place in our field but it needs to learn its place , my company had me do a laundromat with all propress but they were too cheap that I had to solder all valves and male/female adapters . While it was quick I felt like any one could have done it and if that's the case what have I worked so hard the last 12 years for if anyone can walk into the trade and rough in a laundromat with 64 wash machines (128 stub outs) and 68 dryers it took me a long time to be able to run a job like that , sorry for going on and on but it gets my blood going. I'm only 28 but I've been in the field for 12 years and around the trade for even longer and it just drives me nuts


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## bcp2012 (Oct 27, 2012)

I stub out in pex, but have copper coming off my HWT and then adapting to pex from there

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## brownplumber22 (Nov 19, 2012)

I know everywhere is different I guess it's just what I'm used to. I just hate to see this trade handed to a bunch of guys that couldn't pull fittings at a supply house .


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Wait til they piped in a steam boiler with pvc... did happened, handy hack won as being the lowest bidder for the job.


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

If using pex it should all be hidden and stub outs in copper.
Pex on show is sloppy and poor standards imho.
A stub out cost around $2 and looks so more professional.
What next, plastic nail plates.


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## bcp2012 (Oct 27, 2012)

I know pex looks like crap but its handy sometimes. I've seen some houses that looked like a blind man water piped it. When I use pex I try to make it as neat as possible that's why I'll use 20' straight lengths. At least my mains are nice and straight. But I did a 2 storey house this summer and pex sure came in handy. Their 2nd floor bath was right above their kitchen and living room with no walls close by. It sure was nice to drill holes in floor joists and just pull pex thru in one piece instead of having a whole bunch of soldered couplings in the ceiling.

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## Ishmael (Dec 9, 2009)

mark kiernan said:


> If using pex it should all be hidden and stub outs in copper.
> Pex on show is sloppy and poor standards imho.
> A stub out cost around $2 and looks so more professional.
> What next, plastic nail plates.


Agreed. But here's an exchange I once heard between a customer and his electrician:

*Customer:* I hope you're going to neaten up those wires before you call it "done".

*Electrician:* You won't even see it once the suspended ceiling goes up.

*Customer:* Just because you pull up your pants does that mean you don't have to wipe your a$$?

:laughing:


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

We have to face facts that the trade is going to advance in some form or another.

Can you hear the guys way back when.

I will never use plastic for drains, this orangeberg is the dogs knackers and is far better, easier to use than cast also, we are now saying they were muppets.


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

This trade and the products we see are evolving on a daily basis. This is not going to go away it will continue. We have to change with it or we will be as obsolete as lead and oakum. It simple is what it is. 
My dad told me he and his dad talked about how the trade was dying when no-hub came in the picture. We all feel what they felt.


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## brownplumber22 (Nov 19, 2012)

HSI said:


> This trade and the products we see are evolving on a daily basis. This is not going to go away it will continue. We have to change with it or we will be as obsolete as lead and oakum. It simple is what it is.
> My dad told me he and his dad talked about how the trade was dying when no-hub came in the picture. We all feel what they felt.


I agree I guess you have to evolve with the trade or be left behind as long as it requires " professional installation " I'll be satisfied. For instance here in MD they sell csst gas pipe at Home Depot but they still require a plumbing license to buy it , so any body can't start running there own gas pipe


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## bcp2012 (Oct 27, 2012)

What bugs me is the fact that all the hardware stores are selling pumps and hwt's and other plumbing supplies like shark bites. Any weekend warrior can pick stuff up and install it or fix it themselves. Here in Manitoba you can walk into a hardware store and buy a gas HWT even if you don't have a gas ticket. How many people do this to save a buck? IMO if you don't have a gas ticket you shouldn't be able to buy that stuff. Why the hell did I go to school for to get my gas ticket?

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## brownplumber22 (Nov 19, 2012)

bcp2012 said:


> What bugs me is the fact that all the hardware stores are selling pumps and hwt's and other plumbing supplies like shark bites. Any weekend warrior can pick stuff up and install it or fix it themselves. Here in Manitoba you can walk into a hardware store and buy a gas HWT even if you don't have a gas ticket. How many people do this to save a buck? IMO if you don't have a gas ticket you shouldn't be able to buy that stuff. Why the hell did I go to school for to get my gas ticket?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Agree buts its the same way here a homeowner can actually walk in our professional supply house and buy one because most of the time customer supplies fixtures


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## bcp2012 (Oct 27, 2012)

Same here at most of our wholesalers. But there is one that I deal with that has a big sign above order desk stating that if your not a contractor with a gas ticket they won't sell a gas HWT to you

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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

bcp2012 said:


> Same here at most of our wholesalers. But there is one that I deal with that has a big sign above order desk stating that if your not a contractor with a gas ticket they won't sell a gas HWT to you
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


 Must be a real old sign...


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## bcp2012 (Oct 27, 2012)

Not old sign at all it's just their company policy which is nice. I actually went into a hardware store to that had a policy like that. No gas ticket no gas HWT. A lot of plumbers up here don't like the fact that joe blow can buy a gas tank.

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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

bcp2012 said:


> Same here at most of our wholesalers. But there is one that I deal with that has a big sign above order desk stating that if your not a contractor with a gas ticket they won't sell a gas HWT to you
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


 






A/C trade is like that. From what I hear, a homeowner can't just waltz into an A/C supply house and purchase Freon or whatever it is they use nowadays. But the plumbing trade is not protected like that.......:furious:...they'll sell anything to anyone. Think about it men, when is the last time Home Depot was advertising air conditioning refrigerant for sale? I don't think they can sell it here legally, though I won't swear to that.

Just for the record here in FL a plumbing license is needed not only to install, alter, design etc. plumbing, but also to do drain cleaning. But there is little to no enforcement. Any Joe blow can buy drain cleaning equipment and poof! he's in business.


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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

bcp2012 said:


> What bugs me is the fact that all the hardware stores are selling pumps and hwt's and other plumbing supplies like shark bites. Any weekend warrior can pick stuff up and install it or fix it themselves. Here in Manitoba you can walk into a hardware store and buy a gas HWT even if you don't have a gas ticket. How many people do this to save a buck? IMO if you don't have a gas ticket you shouldn't be able to buy that stuff. Why the hell did I go to school for to get my gas ticket?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


The weekend warriors have always been there and will continue to be. Wish them the best of luck and offer your services to those that need your services. 
I end up with a lot of work that they get in to deep so they call. Same with Handyhacks. They are paid to do a job and it falls apart in a short time so the customer calls wanting it done right. Treat them with understanding and you have a customer for a long time.


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## bcp2012 (Oct 27, 2012)

That's exactly what I do. Just ticks me off when someone goes out and buys their own gas HWT and install it themselves but then have the nerve to phone and ask ill if ill tag it for them and pull the permit. Basically go tell them to go fly a kite. My gas tag doesn't go on anything that I didn't work on

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## HSI (Jun 3, 2011)

bcp2012 said:


> That's exactly what I do. Just ticks me off when someone goes out and buys their own gas HWT and install it themselves but then have the nerve to phone and ask ill if ill tag it for them and pull the permit. Basically go tell them to go fly a kite. My gas tag doesn't go on anything that I didn't work on
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


I agree. If my name is on it I will be the one who installed it


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## bcp2012 (Oct 27, 2012)

Everybody wants to save a buck. I have a flat rate for supplying and installing HWT. People think their saving $ buy buying it themselves. When they supply it I basically take the price if the tank off my flat rate price and that's what I charge them. They don't save anything

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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

I love to solder copper. I think it's fun. It takes skill to solder even more so when it's big pipe!! I see it this way I'd rather my boss pay me more labor and less in material then put all that money in the supply house and manufactures pocket. And me get 1/3 less hours because I just pop it and press it


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Last week the wif's car went to $hit. Misfire on 2 cylinders. Decided to change the coil packs which I bought from the dealer. The parts and service counter are right next to each other....service line was packed, parts counter, not a soul. Installed new coil packs, ignition wires, spark plugs and valve cover gasket, in business. 

Here's my point, the auto and plumbing industry have parallels as both are thought to be threatened by the diy'er such as myself. I took about 1300 from toyota by doing this work myself. BUT as evident by the long line in the service dept, people are still willing to wait long hours for their car to get serviced. Just as no matter how easy you make plumbing, there will always be those who will diy and those who will call someone and I believe the latter far outnumber the former. The diy market has not to my knowledge destroyed any particular trade but those in the trade need to adapt or they will die off.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Try taking propress apart or soldering close too pressed fittings! Then explain why it is better! Anyone who would cut propress out and start propressing again will make a hack look great when he sharkbites it and if there is a problem he will take it apart again! I have soldered propress fittings when they leak once the o-rings is burnt out its solder on! :yes: Propress is crap might as well sharkbite it!:laughing:


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I love to solder copper. I think it's fun. It takes skill to solder even more so when it's big pipe!! I see it this way I'd rather my boss pay me more labor and less in material then put all that money in the supply house and manufactures pocket. And me get 1/3 less hours because I just pop it and press it


 I dont think soldering pipe is as labour intensive as it is made out to be and also that propress fittings which are way too costly and are not reuseable are better or faster! You cant unsweat propress and thats why soldering will always be around! A solder joint is clean flux then solder with a b tank it takes 30 seconds to get a nice heat on a 2 inch pipe then work the heat along! The most time spent soldering is preheating the first joint then the rest flows like butter! :thumbup:


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> A/C trade is like that. From what I hear, a homeowner can't just waltz into an A/C supply house and purchase Freon or whatever it is they use nowadays.


They have sold the concept that Freon is dangerous to the enviroment and have protected thier trade.

Us dumbass plumbers have not been able to do that yet.

I walk into Home Depot and each time their is some wanna be plumber/ salesperson selling home owners items to fix thier problems

I just walk by and listen with one ear open and shake my head sometimes.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Everything in this thread reminds me of the early 70’s when the old timers talked about wiping lead, pouring lead, and galvanized water piping went to cast and copper to pvc/abs and copper. Now we are saying the same thing about pvc/abs and pex/cpvc water piping.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Everything in this thread reminds me of the early 70&#146;s when the old timers talked about wiping lead, pouring lead, and galvanized water piping went to cast and copper to pvc/abs and copper. Now we are saying the same thing about pvc/abs and pex/cpvc water piping.


Reminds me of conversations with Gramps explaining the virtues of CI building drains over PVC.

I don't know if you guys have heard about this but it is truly breaking news! Square-D breakers, 200 amp load centers, and 3/0 copper wire are available at the big box stores now. Electricians throughout the civilized world are destined to live in poverty.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> I don't know if you guys have heard about this but it is truly breaking news! Square-D breakers, 200 amp load centers, and 3/0 copper wire are available at the big box stores now. Electricians throughout the civilized world are destined to live in poverty.


That stuff has been available for a awhile at deepthroat and blowes.

Sent from my iPhone 10.5


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Plumbers will never be out of work, the younger generation hates to get dirty, and has no practice think through a problem. For those of you who have tried to train an 18 yr old you know what I mean. 

The tech that is killing us will save us. The DIY is the last gasp of a generation who worked on their own cars and grew up playing outside. Until playing in dirt and crap is cool we will be OK.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Everything in this thread reminds me of the early 70’s when the old timers talked about wiping lead, pouring lead, and galvanized water piping went to cast and copper to pvc/abs and copper. Now we are saying the same thing about pvc/abs and pex/cpvc water piping.


This old plumber was there in the early 70's also there [started] aprenticeship in 1955. Present day I am firmy convinced that there should be different classes of plumbers. Why a plumber learning his trade today does the same thing we did. Goes into business, gets a phone number, gets some form of advertisment -- he is a licensed plumber. Gets a call for repair work in a house built in 1920 [the house I live in was built in 1922]. Could a plumber trained today? Do a proper job? Tell Me ...


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Everything in this thread reminds me of the early 70’s when the old timers talked about wiping lead, pouring lead, and galvanized water piping went to cast and copper to pvc/abs and copper. Now we are saying the same thing about pvc/abs and pex/cpvc water piping.


They keep making better and easier products to install in plumbing, which only cuts down on a plumbers salary or yearly income.

Cast Iron sewer pipe was the bomb in my area for making money, they have not installed CI in houses since 1980, if they would still be installing CI I would have retired years ago a rich man. Cast Iron is one of the dumbest thing to install in the ground, it only dissloves after a few year.

Now of days they Home Depots and Lowes all over the place, I have like 6 Home Depot/Lowes within 20 minutes of my house.

Anyone with 2 hands can install a DWV systems in house using PVC, it is so forgiving, make a mistake on fitting or fall and you will be ok.

This is one reason you have every Tom, Dick and Harry or Tom's Harry Dick doing plumbing and advertising on Craigslist, etc.....


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

We work in some places that pro-press is mandatory. The customers do not want open flames at their facility. Places like refineries, hospitals, and schools really don't want the hassle of us starting fires, and then explaining, "but soldering is the mark of a true mechanic." Industrial/institutional customers are our bread and butter. If they want mechanical press, they get mechanical press. For them it's not money, but safety.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

422 plumber said:


> We work in some places that pro-press is mandatory. The customers do not want open flames at their facility. Places like refineries, hospitals, and schools really don't want the hassle of us starting fires, and then explaining, "but soldering is the mark of a true mechanic." Industrial/institutional customers are our bread and butter. If they want mechanical press, they get mechanical press. For them it's not money, but safety.



And down time, when a plant/mill runs 24/7 there is no letting the water drain down. If it wasn't for PP there would still be trash cans under leaks around the place I do work at.


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## AWWGH (May 2, 2011)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> This old plumber was there in the early 70's also there [started] aprenticeship in 1955. Present day I am firmy convinced that there should be different classes of plumbers. Why a plumber learning his trade today does the same thing we did. Goes into business, gets a phone number, gets some form of advertisment -- he is a licensed plumber. Gets a call for repair work in a house built in 1920 [the house I live in was built in 1922]. Could a plumber trained today? Do a proper job? Tell Me ...


Yes, although a plumber trained today may not do the repair it would have been done in 1920 there are new ways to do things. New does not mean it's wrong or less of a skill.

It's 2012, if I can make a repair that is of the same quality with a newer material which cuts time I will. We are tradesmen but we are also businessmen. Unfortunately we do not get the opportunity to "show off" our ability to do it like it was done 100 years ago. We are not rebuilding classic cars, we are making repairs and doing jobs the with the best quality possible but also with the best value.

Don't get me wrong as a 27 year old plumber I am greatful I was able to learn from an old school plumber who was willing to teach me how things "use to" be done. There is days when that knowledge is needed. But we still need to have open eyes for new equipment. So many of the older guys are so quick to judge new products without even trying them.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

DesertOkie said:


> Plumbers will never be out of work, the younger generation hates to get dirty, and has no practice think through a problem. For those of you who have tried to train an 18 yr old you know what I mean.
> 
> The tech that is killing us will save us. The DIY is the last gasp of a generation who worked on their own cars and grew up playing outside. Until playing in dirt and crap is cool we will be OK.


 Or a recent 32 years old whiner here on the Zone.


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

Interesting post..But i find it funny as i get to the end of all the posts. There is a ad for Home Depot. It has their orange sign and the word PRO next to it. 

But back on to the post. Propress does have its place in our industry even if we dont like it. Like someone said about not wanting torch at a refinery. Pex also has its time and place for some jobs. 

Think about this..if cars had not evolved as they did. We would still be doing service calls out of a horse drawn buggy. I say embrace it and find what useful way to use it. Except for sharkbites...


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

victoryplbaz said:


> Except for sharkbites...


 
They go on every CPVC and Qest PB repair I make.:thumbup:








Paul


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

AWWGH said:


> Yes, although a plumber trained today may not do the repair it would have been done in 1920 there are new ways to do things. New does not mean it's wrong or less of a skill.
> 
> It's 2012, if I can make a repair that is of the same quality with a newer material which cuts time I will. We are tradesmen but we are also businessmen. Unfortunately we do not get the opportunity to "show off" our ability to do it like it was done 100 years ago. We are not rebuilding classic cars, we are making repairs and doing jobs the with the best quality possible but also with the best value.
> 
> Don't get me wrong as a 27 year old plumber I am greatful I was able to learn from an old school plumber who was willing to teach me how things "use to" be done. There is days when that knowledge is needed. But we still need to have open eyes for new equipment. So many of the older guys are so quick to judge new products without even trying them.


 ... 

Job in point ... Bath remodel ceramic floor mud base peaked joists. Lead piping ... galvanized water. Contract ... {BIG BUCKS}
Here's what they got from the newby. Total floor tear out, total piping tear out, lead bend into cast iron stack [sawsall took care of the lead bend] cut made on brass furrel just on the stack side of the wipe joint. Fernco coupling on the furrel --transition for PVC. All drains run in PVC, Pex replaced the galvanized except the drops to the basement [they stayed] New plywood floor [joists were not sistered] -- don't know what kind of floor is going in. Proper Job? Not where I come from.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

Old School plumbers used poor products and worked slow.

In my area all the gas lines are poly and they will last like 500 years or more, and so easy to socket fuse the lines.

I like the cheap style steel pipe in the ground that will be lucky to last 50 years, and these are threaded, This is a easy process

Sewer Lines : Now are all PVC. Put Cast Iron in the ground and it will look like swiss cheese in 30 to 40 years and be full of holes and crack.

Water Lines: Ran with Galvanised is mostly a repipe when I see it.

Most the material they are making now of days will last for hundered if not thousand of years in the ground, and yes they are hurting the plumbing industry.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

If its the end of the world for plumbers why are our phones still ringing? Ill have to make sure and tell the two customers who called today that there are cheap and easy materials available at Home Depot and they can do it themselves. 

Oh wait, both have tried to make their own repairs and it didn't work or hold.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> That stuff has been available for a awhile at deepthroat and blowes....


That's my point. 

Yet the licensed electrical trade is as strong as ever. The materials are not the strength or weakness of our trade either. That is totally out of our control. What we can control is our expertise.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> This old plumber was there in the early 70's also there [started] aprenticeship in 1955. Present day I am firmy convinced that there should be different classes of plumbers. Why a plumber learning his trade today does the same thing we did. Goes into business, gets a phone number, gets some form of advertisment -- he is a licensed plumber. Gets a call for repair work in a house built in 1920 [the house I live in was built in 1922]. Could a plumber trained today? Do a proper job? Tell Me ...


Yes. I just rip out that old sloppy crap and put new drainage fittings in with proper sweeps and pitch and actually vented. Idk about most of you guys but when I see a house from the 50s or older I see dollar signs. Most of the piping is sloppy at best, pitched like crap and not vented to today's standards. Lets face it, screwed together galvanized drainage or lead are far inferior to PVC or copper. You can't pitch it as well, the fittings aren't sweeped worth a shiot and in the case of lead, it doesn't have a constant ID. 

Every once in a while I see someone lamenting about the "golden age" of plumbing. I see many more homes of that era where I say "wow what a pile of shiot" than saying " wow that's a really great install".


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

rocksteady said:


> They go on every CPVC and Qest PB repair I make.:thumbup:
> 
> Paul


Same here.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> Yes. I just rip out that old sloppy crap and put new drainage fittings in with proper sweeps and pitch and actually vented. Idk about most of you guys but when I see a house from the 50s or older I see dollar signs. Most of the piping is sloppy at best, pitched like crap and not vented to today's standards. Lets face it, screwed together galvanized drainage or lead are far inferior to PVC or copper. You can't pitch it as well, the fittings aren't sweeped worth a shiot and in the case of lead, it doesn't have a constant ID.
> 
> Every once in a while I see someone lamenting about the "golden age" of plumbing. I see many more homes of that era where I say "wow what a pile of shiot" than saying " wow that's a really great install".


Might say that ...

But the full amount of labour that they had to go through to get things done compare to nowadays...

That is what they mean by golden age of plumbing ..

The day when your strength was far stronger than your mind


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

RW Plumbing said:


> Yes. I just rip out that old sloppy crap and put new drainage fittings in with proper sweeps and pitch and actually vented. Idk about most of you guys but when I see a house from the 50s or older I see dollar signs. Most of the piping is sloppy at best, pitched like crap and not vented to today's standards. Lets face it, screwed together galvanized drainage or lead are far inferior to PVC or copper. You can't pitch it as well, the fittings aren't sweeped worth a shiot and in the case of lead, it doesn't have a constant ID.
> 
> Every once in a while I see someone lamenting about the "golden age" of plumbing. I see many more homes of that era where I say "wow what a pile of shiot" than saying " wow that's a really great install".


Well, it was certainly a more physically difficult job than it is today. With leaded cast iron drainage, it is more difficult to obtain perfect pitch compared to PVC or ABS. It is more difficult to be precise with threaded pipe than it is with copper or plastic. This is all true and there's a ton of crappy work out there done by the exalted "dead men". That's what makes it all the sweeter to see a masterpiece and yes, they are out there. A plumber was definitely able to work to today's standards of precision with the old materials and many did. Cost cutting, short schedules and lowest bidders have always been around. The cheapest guy is rarely the best and I'm sure he had as good a chance of landing the bid in 1925 as Nacho does today. When you see that rare masterpiece, you have to just stop and look at it for a while. :thumbsup: 

A craftsman is a craftsman and it has little to do with the materials used. By the same logic, a hack is a hack. Those with pride in their work will survive these dark times and will hopefully find young, like minded workers to pass on the "old school" work ethic, if not the specific techniques.







Paul


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Everything was made so heavy back then ... Look at the material they had to work with ...
Look at the tools they had to work with ...

This was the golden age ....

It took a strong lad with a sound mind to be a plumber back then....

I remember working with dad when I was just a kid and they only thing we had back then was a hand drill and a chisel....

The fittings and pipe back then was hard to install compared to the material used to day

Figure the effort and time they had to do to rough-in compared today ...


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> This old plumber was there in the early 70's also there [started] aprenticeship in 1955. Present day I am firmy convinced that there should be different classes of plumbers. Why a plumber learning his trade today does the same thing we did. Goes into business, gets a phone number, gets some form of advertisment -- he is a licensed plumber. Gets a call for repair work in a house built in 1920 [the house I live in was built in 1922]. Could a plumber trained today? Do a proper job? Tell Me ...


Bill the answer is yes. There is no plumbing material that cannot be transitioned to a different type plumbing material. Now could it be in the mind of an old school plumber the answer would be no. Nothing would or could compare with wiping a lead drain arm or sweep. Saying that I would not take the time to dig out of my garage or bring out to the job my lead tools to make a lead repair other than to pour a lead joint. It is not cost effective to the company or the customer. It would give me bragging rights.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

TallCoolOne said:


> They keep making better and easier products to install in plumbing, which only cuts down on a plumbers salary or yearly income.
> 
> Disagree with this
> 
> ...


DIY has been around a very very long time. Since people started to receive pay for the work.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> Reminds me of conversations with Gramps explaining the virtues of CI building drains over PVC.
> 
> I don't know if you guys have heard about this but it is truly breaking news! Square-D breakers, 200 amp load centers, and 3/0 copper wire are available at the big box stores now. Electricians throughout the civilized world are destined to live in poverty.


 
I know it is amazing that I even get up to go to work.


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## Big cheez (Jan 11, 2012)

brownplumber22 said:


> Agree I think no joint will hold up like a solder joint these propress fittings are no more then a shark bite on steroids and what did we all think about those when they 1st hit the market . I think propress has its place in our field but it needs to learn its place , my company had me do a laundromat with all propress but they were too cheap that I had to solder all valves and male/female adapters . While it was quick I felt like any one could have done it and if that's the case what have I worked so hard the last 12 years for if anyone can walk into the trade and rough in a laundromat with 64 wash machines (128 stub outs) and 68 dryers it took me a long time to be able to run a job like that , sorry for going on and on but it gets my blood going. I'm only 28 but I've been in the field for 12 years and around the trade for even longer and it just drives me nuts


I agree with everything your saying. That's why I still hard pipe my water heaters with expansion tanks, vacuum breakers, etc. I want my work to look impossible for the DIY'er. I feel that if everybody went to these measures on everything they install we can keep are trade. But there's a lot of idiots using shark bits and sh#t in this field. They have all these plumbing boards and inspectors not carding people and enforcing the code requirements hard enough. But ever year I pay more to renew my license but they do less


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> ...
> 
> Job in point ... Bath remodel ceramic floor mud base peaked joists. Lead piping ... galvanized water. Contract ... {BIG BUCKS}
> Here's what they got from the newby. Total floor tear out, total piping tear out, lead bend into cast iron stack [sawsall took care of the lead bend] cut made on brass furrel just on the stack side of the wipe joint. Fernco coupling on the furrel --transition for PVC. All drains run in PVC, Pex replaced the galvanized except the drops to the basement [they stayed] New plywood floor [joists were not sistered] -- don't know what kind of floor is going in. Proper Job? Not where I come from.


What would you do? Cast iron and copper?


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## Boundry (Jul 14, 2012)

Propress has been around in Europe since the 80s. I think the high cost of tool and jaws will keep hacks out of the market.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

JK949 said:


> What would you do? Cast iron and copper?


No the C.I. Stack would stay ... no visable sign of damages. The old furrel from the lead bend would be removed. In its place would be a 4x3 PVC manhoff leaded into the Tee on the exsisting C.I. stack. The drainage would be PVC, providing there was enough depth on the 2nd floor joists. If not possibly a 3x4 fitting bend with a 4" flat flange could be used. Galvanized water would be replaced with PEX, but I would pull new Pex to the basement valve it and connect to existing. Of course the joist dimensions of the joists would be the key. Very possible that floor would need sisters and be elevated. On a old bath remodel with a wet tile job any contract would have to be carefully worded. Especialy if using todays materials over yester-years materials. But yester-years ways of doing things still apply in todays world. No copper on job at all, but I would still need a torch to melt lead in a ladel, some ockum, a joint runner, yarning iron and a couple if caulking irons. After all when people are spending 10,000 + for a bath remodle the whole thing should not start off with a rubber gasket nor should a whole house have to be torn apart to replace a C.I. Stack.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

So really it's not just the material but how much quality is put into the work.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

In my opinion, if you're spending the money, why not get rid of the old stuff. I would have a hard time telling customers to keep a CI stack that's that old without it being it pristine condition. You're only talking a few hundred dollars difference to open the wall below and fish PVC down to the basement. I would make the connection in the wall on the first floor with a small hole at ceiling level if the customer didn't want to nix the whole stack. 

I would use a mission coupling on the stack and transition to PVC instead of trying to tie onto the existing cast tee. Usually the threads on the tee are so rusted they aren't salvageable.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)




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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

I love to soldering copper pipe, it’s a real work of art but at the same time it’s becoming a lost art.
A lot of New guys in the trade “know” how to solder in theory or by the book, but they don’t get enough experience on the job, to prefect it. 
I know, The old timers would say the same about my gen with lead and oakum joints, of lifting castiron tubs or double concrete laundry tubs etc..
But hey I’m 43 and Ive now put in enough of my time and now I can strat to ***** about something!


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Logtec said:


> I love to soldering copper pipe, it’s a real work of art but at the same time it’s becoming a lost art.
> A lot of New guys in the trade “know” how to solder in theory or by the book, but they don’t get enough experience on the job, to prefect it.
> I know, The old timers would say the same about my gen with lead and oakum joints, of lifting castiron tubs or double concrete laundry tubs etc..
> But hey I’m 43 and Ive now put in enough of my time and now I can strat to *** about something!


I am pretty sure that the viega fosta pex with bronze fittings we are putting in is as good or better than copper. I also know that propress is fine most of the time. But I love me some sweat copper. 

When I solder on a regular basis, a job like that shown above barely takes a little more time than propress and the fittings are way cheaper. I understand it's different when our guys rough in new houses. One of the reasons I love doing service work, sweat copper still makes a lot of sense most of the time. Every once in a while I even make a couple bends.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Ishmael said:


> I think you are correct. I do residential plumbing, and just finished a 3 1/2 bath house (new construction). I did it all in copper, and honestly it only took 2 days. Probably could've done pex in one day, but - let's face it - I don't care how neat someone is, pex just looks like hell. As long as I can still make money and use copper, I will.


You can't make money and use copper in residential today,you be bankrupt


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

sparky said:


> You can't make money and use copper in residential today,you be bankrupt


Last year we plumbed a whole house in copper, 1-1/2 baths I believe. 

5 years ago we repiped a whole house with copper, 3-1/2 baths. That one was a restoration of an antique building though. They also got a new boiler and we ran an 8 zone header so the basement had these two sets of copper pipes running from the boiler all around. The basement was kind of circular around the center chimney. Somewhere I have pics. It looked amazing. Basement ceiling was pretty low so it got hot and they ended up having us insulate it all  With the wide pine flooring and the huge gaps in the boards they thought more of the heat would rise. It did a lot, they essentially had radiant flooring in some spots.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

skoronesa said:


> Last year we plumbed a whole house in copper, 1-1/2 baths I believe.
> but did the company make any money??I don't want to drive by a house or business and say hey I plumbed that place and it's so neat and perfect but we didnt make any money on it,I want to drive bup ya place and say hey we made good money on this job
> 5 years ago we repiped a whole house with copper, 3-1/2 baths. That one was a restoration of an antique building though. They also got a new boiler and we ran an 8 zone header so the basement had these two sets of copper pipes running from the boiler all around. The basement was kind of circular around the center chimney. Somewhere I have pics. It looked amazing. Basement ceiling was pretty low so i


but did you make any money on the house job??no need to do a job if no money will be made,I don't want to drive by a place and say I plumbed this job but we didn't make any money on it I want to drive by and say I did this job and made a lot of money on it and it passed inspectin and that all that matters


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## bawalter (Dec 23, 2020)

sparky said:


> that all that matters


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## Sstratton6175 (Jan 10, 2021)

Almost all the copper we do other than small repair jobs is sweat copper. Commercial/Industrial boilers and DHW systems. I think nothing looks worse than a big boiler room filled with pro press. When you have som many fittings so close together it’s impossible to keep everything straight and tidy with press fittings.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

I give the customer the choice and price difference..most go with pex.....im in business to make money not do charity work depending on what materials I use..if you can make a good profit with whatever you use then its the choice of the plumber and customer on each job..but new houses( not custom) is a dog eat dog pricing..custom homes..sky is the limit...depending on what the customer wants..


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## Sstratton6175 (Jan 10, 2021)

With large fittings the money you save on labor with press fittings get lost in the price of the fittings themselves. Or you can sweat everything and have a higher labor cost and save on the fittings. But if you’re doing long runs of straight pipe you can’t beat the efficiency of pro press


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Sstratton6175 said:


> With large fittings the money you save on labor with press fittings get lost in the price of the fittings themselves. Or you can sweat everything and have a higher labor cost and save on the fittings. But if you’re doing long runs of straight pipe you can’t beat the efficiency of pro press



the joy of pex..and I can carry a few hundred foot roll on 1 shoulder..


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## Sstratton6175 (Jan 10, 2021)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> the joy of pex..and I can carry a few hundred foot roll on 1 shoulder..


I’m talking about 2”-4” pipe.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Sstratton6175 said:


> I’m talking about 2”-4” pipe.


when you get to that size, its a different ball game, we use to do fire sprinklers in commercial buildings and in the beginning we used a welder for the larger mains till the grooved stuff came out with those big clamps and seals...I guess you can compare it to propress, but the fittings could be taken apart and new seals used if need be...but that was over 20 years ago...I gave up the fire sprinkler license..wasnt worth keeping it...as time went on..


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

sparky said:


> but did you make any money on the house job??no need to do a job if no money will be made,I don't want to drive by a place and say I plumbed this job but we didn't make any money on it I want to drive by and say I did this job and made a lot of money on it and it passed inspectin and that all that matters


I know who runs the company so I guarantee we got more than a pound of flesh


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## Sstratton6175 (Jan 10, 2021)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> when you get to that size, its a different ball game, we use to do fire sprinklers in commercial buildings and in the beginning we used a welder for the larger mains till the grooved stuff came out with those big clamps and seals...I guess you can compare it to propress, but the fittings could be taken apart and new seals used if need be...but that was over 20 years ago...I gave up the fire sprinkler license..wasnt worth keeping it...as time went on..


The insurance cost alone is enough to make it hard for sprinkler fitting to be profitable.

I feel the same way about groove pipe vs welding. Long runs are perfect for groove pipe but inside the mechanical room it’s all welded


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

rocksteady said:


> They go on every CPVC and Qest PB repair I make.👍
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Putting a sharkbite on Qest, would that be the one time that two wrongs do make a
right? Maybe more accurately, two wrongs make it, eh, just all right. Ive done it a few times, but after leaving I always feel like Anakin Shywalker when he helped send Master Windu fall to his death. What have I done??
I worked for one company that directed me to repair Qest with Watts pex rings and fittings. I'm not religious, but now know what it's like feeling like you need to go to confession, or how a girl feels who tries being a whore one time, and realizes it's not for her.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

goeswiththeflow said:


> Putting a sharkbite on Qest, would that be the one time that two wrongs do make a
> right? Maybe more accurately, two wrongs make it, eh, just all right. Ive done it a few times, but after leaving I always feel like Anakin Shywalker when he helped send Master Windu fall to his death. What have I done??
> I worked for one company that directed me to repair Qest with Watts pex rings and fittings. I'm not religious, but now know what it's like feeling like you need to go to confession, or how a girl feels who tries being a whore one time, and realizes it's not for her.


I have an older mobile home upstate as a rental and I tapped pex into that grey crap with pex fittings and crimp rings, its ben holding over 10 years...I wouldnt do it for a customer because of the liability, but even if the fittings came apart, it wouldnt do much damage where I tapped in, and its my own schit and wouldnt make an insurance claim..


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

That's good to hear. There's a big difference between an expert doing it on his own stuff when he can mitgate the risks as much as he sees fit, and he's not going to cry like a beatch and blame someone else when something beyond his control fails.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

goeswiththeflow said:


> That's good to hear. There's a big difference between an expert doing it on his own stuff when he can mitgate the risks as much as he sees fit, and he's not going to cry like a beatch and blame someone else when something beyond his control fails.


not so much the customer crying as much as my insurance agent and a price increase in insurance..lol


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> when you get to that size, its a different ball game, we use to do fire sprinklers in commercial buildings and in the beginning we used a welder for the larger mains till the grooved stuff came out with those big clamps and seals...I guess you can compare it to propress, but the fittings could be taken apart and new seals used if need be...but that was over 20 years ago...I gave up the fire sprinkler license..wasnt worth keeping it...as time went on..


It's called victallic piping and I think it's a schedule 10 pipe,I've ran a lot of groove piping in the past you have to use a Grover to make the groove


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

goeswiththeflow said:


> That's good to hear. There's a big difference between an expert doing it on his own stuff when he can mitgate the risks as much as he sees fit, and he's not going to cry like a beatch and blame someone else when something beyond his control fails.


Zurn makes a special fitting and crimp ring made to transition over from polybutylene to pex,the. Grooves on the end that go in the poly pipe are closer together and then you use a copper colored crimp ring on the poly,I have been using these for years and never had a problem with them,I never ever use a sharkbite on polybutylene pipe cause the sharkbite is not made for polybutylene pipe,the poly pipe is a few thousands of an inch smaller than copper tube size pipe but the sharkbite will hold for a while but I have seen them leak many times,sharkbites will hold better on poly pipe if the Trailor has a properly installed and working pressure reducing valve and a properly installed and air adjusted expansion tan,but how many mobile homes have both of these right????NONE,I will say I went to a mobile home once and the poly keep blowing apart or pinholes kept popping up,we installed a pressure reducing valve on the incoming water and a expansion tank at the cold side of the water heater and as far as I know its not had any problems since then


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## goeswiththeflow (Feb 24, 2018)

Good to know, but I question if anything I use to connect to Qest will shield me or my company from liability, including fittings that are supposedly made for it. Other than complete repipe I think we are taking our chances no matter what we use.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

goeswiththeflow said:


> Good to know, but I question if anything I use to connect to Qest will shield me or my company from liability, including fittings that are supposedly made for it. Other than complete repipe I think we are taking our chances no matter what we use.


No you are good to go,as long as the manufacturer says it's made and rated for whatever you are connecting to then you are good,buttttttttt,sincethe Poly pipe has been outlawed then I'm sure it could be anything goes,but i work on a lot of older mobile homes and will continue to do so and not give it another thought


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

goeswiththeflow said:


> Good to know, but I question if anything I use to connect to Qest will shield me or my company from liability, including fittings that are supposedly made for it. Other than complete repipe I think we are taking our chances no matter what we use.


Poly B has been here for over 30 years without any issues. I just use transition fittings to pex. It's all good.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Tango said:


> Poly B has been here for over 30 years without any issues. I just use transition fittings to pex. It's all good.


Yes what do you use as your transition fittings???


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