# To grow or not to grow that is the question



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Greetings my fellow plumbers. This is my 1st post.
I have been plumbing 35 yrs, contracting 25 ,several states and 1 third world country (Iraq ). And I still don't have all the answers. Looking for some feedback. I live and operate in a rural area in NE Texas Doing service/ remodel work. Plumbers are getting out or retiring.I bought out the oldest shop and put it with mine to form the largest plumber in our county 3 trucks (big Deal. small population) after a year and a half one plumber that had been with me 12 years and another one I hired out of Dallas started passing out cards to my customers on my time saying they could do it cheaper next time. End of that friendship. The other one has ADD and it really shows sometime,seems like a time bomb waiting to go off. We aquired a store front with the new business which does not make a profit and I do not like cutting my own throat selling to the public wanting my free advice.I made more profit with me and my son doing the work with a lot less headaches.Finding a licensed plumber around here is next to impossible. I am 52 and can still work as hard as any 20 year old. I am thinking about downsizing. During this economic slowdown it may be a good move.Maybe it's not time for me to ease up yet. I guess we gotta do what we gotta do! :yes:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Overheads a killer. I like the small shop in slow times. I think small shops make more money for the time/money invested. When i get old and cant do it,I will hire guys and be a babysitter. When i get too old to be a babysitter for them I will atttempt to sell my phone number and accounts. Several guys have done it just like the above is laid out and they are doing well here.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Hi and Welcome. I like the small shop too. I dont have the headaches and stress that bigger company owners have. If you do quailty work at reasonable rate, are good to your customers, smart people will use us small guys. I dont have to run ads, wrap trucks or pay anyone but me! Word of mouth is my bread and butter.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

You really need to look at that storefront. If it's possible, close it to the public and use it for your office/shop. The guy with ADD needs to go. Your description of him doesn't sound like I would want to send him out to a customer's house.


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## breid1903 (Feb 8, 2009)

*read your post*

you said you and son make more money with out the hassle. get rid of mister add or make him a helper. close or get totally rid of store front. you said you didn't like it. follow your gut feelings. life is to short. breid..........:yes:


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## UnclogNH (Mar 28, 2009)

Welcome


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## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

Welcome to the zone. Is'nt Gilmer near New Diana? A high school friend of mine lives there.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

What I don't understand is how you don't grow?

If year one you are working full time and 1/2 those people referred you to someone else, the following year you would have more work. So, year 2 you are busier because your customer base has grown.

By year 3, you are acquiring even more customers. At some point do you just turn away customers/work?

Every year we have grown without doing additional advertising which made it necessary to put another truck on the road.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> What I don't understand is how you don't grow?
> 
> If year one you are working full time and 1/2 those people referred you to someone else, the following year you would have more work. So, year 2 you are busier because your customer base has grown.
> 
> ...


Maybe it's because one of his plumbers was doing work on the side passing out his own cards and the other has ADD? :blink:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

ironranger said:


> Maybe it's because one of his plumbers was doing work on the side passing out his own cards and the other has ADD? :blink:


:laughing: My response wasn't a directed at the poster's situation. It was a genuine question for those who choose to stay at one truck.

How do you stay at one truck as your customer base grows?


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## Charles Mitchel (Jul 26, 2009)

One guy curbing "stealing" business, one guy with a tude, and one company with about 5,00o employee's closing plant not 3o mile's from you "Lonestar Steel."
Sound like a time to restructure the business.
Close store front let them drive to Longview for Blow's or Tyler. And service the customer who want the "real plumber" who get it done.
Good luck.
Charlie


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> How do you stay at one truck as your customer base grows?


 

Pick and choose your work, define what you want to do and the rest gets chucked to your competition. 


I toss what I don't want, do the ones that repeat customers offer and the rest works itself out. I keep a digging crew gainfully employed, couple plumbers and a drain cleaner with work. 

Not enough to keep them gainfully employed, but it adds up every month. 

There's a reason why I don't put a shovel in my hands, along with not being forced to take every single job that comes down the pike.

These new phone books are boosting my call volume instantly...less there for the pickins and that'll get nuts over the next 16 months.

I love it, but I'm not going to hire...PASS! :laughing:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*fired all my help 4 years ago*

I really do know what you are going through...

Having employees actually handing out their cards 
while working for you is basically stealing, and they probably already stole you blind taeking materials to do their side work,,ect.....

We got rid of our journey-men losers 4 years ago , 
and I have probably added about 15 years to my life 
.....without any more of the stress and heartache...



All that I have had was an apprentice "dumbass kid " who just quit us and
the apprentice program I was paying for...for three years....

Always needed a smoke break, always had atitude... 
was nothing but a strain on my brain and I dont miss him at all


I am lucky to be in a city of 2 mil, whereas you are in a very rural area with slim pickins for customers.. wether this advice is relavant or not is up to you in texas.


*All that is really necessary is a good Yellow Page add *
*and the hell with everybody..*

my only luxury is I have my payroll done by ADP for 30 bucks a week...


we have two trucks, and a third in mothballs
and we can pick and choose exactly what we want to do every day....

drove out today at 4.30 and fixed a water heater $150.
I did not have to , but felt like it..cause I was bored
*plumbing is good therapy when the wife starts *****ing.......*

*If I still had employees I would have *
*had to beg one of the bastards to do this*

I might go out tomorrow and install a 50 gallon electric
for $875.00 dont know for sure yet..


life is good.....


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Straight up mark! 

I say no more than that...that capital one card :blink:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

slickrick said:


> Greetings my fellow plumbers. This is my 1st post.
> I have been plumbing 35 yrs, contracting 25 ,several states and 1 third world country (Iraq ). And I still don't have all the answers. Looking for some feedback. I live and operate in a rural area in NE Texas Doing service/ remodel work. Plumbers are getting out or retiring.I bought out the oldest shop and put it with mine to form the largest plumber in our county 3 trucks (big Deal. small population) after a year and a half one plumber that had been with me 12 years and another one I hired out of Dallas started passing out cards to my customers on my time saying they could do it cheaper next time. End of that friendship. The other one has ADD and it really shows sometime,seems like a time bomb waiting to go off. We aquired a store front with the new business which does not make a profit and I do not like cutting my own throat selling to the public wanting my free advice.I made more profit with me and my son doing the work with a lot less headaches.Finding a licensed plumber around here is next to impossible. I am 52 and can still work as hard as any 20 year old. I am thinking about downsizing. During this economic slowdown it may be a good move.Maybe it's not time for me to ease up yet. I guess we gotta do what we gotta do! :yes:


 Are you thinking of just you and your son? Rent or storefront should only be based on gross revenue. But dont sell short if the real estate market is bad. I respect your physical condition attitude ...a couple years of you and your son and put some money away sounds like a desireable path. There are only so many calls per population to reasonably expect in a year and I dont know what the pie is and how many are trying to get customers in your area. If your county is less than 75000 count the number of homes and divide by three. Then figure what you think is a reasonable percentage of people who actually will call a plumber. Then figure what you expect your percentage of those calls would be (33% or 20% or more)--you can then estimate the number of calls in your area that you expect and see if it can support another employee.

for each 10000 homes
3333 calls/yr
40% diy.....2000 calls a year 
30% you dominate 
600 calls @ 250 avg. call = 150000 gross rev.

All these are assumptions but the logic is sound

There are other ways such as $20 per capita but it is geographic


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*a time bomb waiting to go off....*

Thank you mr Dunbar,,,

I just re-read that fellows first post 
he stated that he had a guy that was like a time bomb 
waiting to go off,,, that is not a good sign...

 I went through that same thing with a nut case
that worked for me till 2005... 

He is actaully in a nut ward today... 
(meth, crack, booze)

My rule of thumb...if you got a guy that you think is a time bomb, take a good hard look at the fellow and ask yourself...

would you leave him alone in your
home with your wife and kids???

Yes or no??

So would your customers feel ok 
with him inside their home??

All someone like that will do is hurt your business, 
I dont care if he can install 6 water heaters by himself a day... 

you got to get rid of him....


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Welcome !! Bigger is certainly NOT always better . Find your niche , dedicate yourself to that , add customers as you can handle them . GOOD LUCK !


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

para1 said:


> Welcome to the zone. Is'nt Gilmer near New Diana? A high school friend of mine lives there.


10 mi. east


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Charles Mitchel said:


> One guy curbing "stealing" business, one guy with a tude, and one company with about 5,00o employee's closing plant not 3o mile's from you "Lonestar Steel."
> Sound like a time to restructure the business.
> Close store front let them drive to Longview for Blow's or Tyler. And service the customer who want the "real plumber" who get it done.
> Good luck.
> Charlie


You know where I'm located and coming from!


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

With a thread title and a user name like that, I assumed this was involving illicit activity :laughing:


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## Charles Mitchel (Jul 26, 2009)

*Bbq*

Rick do you'll still have Bodaius BBQ there.
My best friend live's out side Ore City and worked for Lone Star then US Steel came in and looted the place.
How far do you travel Quitman {sp} and Longview?
Get rid of "Time Bomb and Mister Business Card."
Just my .02.
Good luck and hang tuff.
Glimer was home to Blue's legend "Albert King"
Charlie


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Charles Mitchel said:


> Rick do you'll still have Bodaius BBQ there.
> My best friend live's out side Ore City and worked for Lone Star then US Steel came in and looted the place.
> How far do you travel Quitman {sp} and Longview?
> Get rid of "Time Bomb and Mister Business Card."
> ...


Charlie,
Yes they are still here and one of my customers. 
I am able to stay inside the Upshur Co. line except by special request.
Lone Star was a bummer for everyone here. We grossed 352,000 last year but with all the layoffs this year will be a different story.
I let the 2 with cards go 3 mo. ago. The other 2 will most likely go Tuesday. I would rather be on a truck than be stressed all the time.


Rickey


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

Plumbcrazy said:


> What I don't understand is how you don't grow?


I don't understand it, either. Good service with a smile, perfectionist work, reasonable prices - what's not to like?

But here I am in a small town (11,000) and why don't I grow? In fact, I've shrunk severely.

True, I once didn't know anything about running a business. But I tried everything. I plumbed houses for a long time, did remodels, service, hired people, and sometimes it worked, and other times it didn't.

Ten years ago, I had been building up my business and was finally reaping the rewards. I had so many people calling me that the only way I could have failed was to light their houses on fire. "You come highly recommended," they'd say. 

Then a couple of Home Depots and Lowes opened in neighboring communities, my calls dropped to less than a third of what they were, and I have never been able to get it back. 

Now I'm 61 and doing a heck of a job. But the economy's a bit sick (and here it was never great) and every time I look up there's another plumbing company in town, or plumbing companies from nearby towns advertising like they're desperate in local phone books. In a town that once had perhaps three plumbers, there are new companies everywhere. 

The population is growing very slowly. And the people here are almost all DIYs. Most of my customers are elderly, and I often hear: "I used to do all that myself but I can't get down anymore." So, my customers die off faster than I can get new ones. Occasionally, I get a younger customer who's cobbled their own plumbing so badly that they have to call a plumber. Here's an example of that:










Woman said her husband did it himself. I got the idea that she and he had split. Disposer tee uses normal trap into tee, other "trap" is those two long corrugated things and they connect into a baffle tee laid on its side into the vent stub. She wondered why it was always plugging up. She tried to plunge it and blew the "trap" apart.

People would rather do this than hire me. I guess that's not too uncommon, but here it's the rule.

I talked to another plumber from the area a couple of nights ago and he's got lots of work, but he does new houses and remodeling in addition to service. He's also a one-man shop, quite a bit younger than me. When I quit plumbing houses over ten years ago, there were no decent contractors left and no houses to plumb. Then a little boom started and that went well until the banks went bust. Now there are a lot of rogue agents - plumbers who have been laid off and are looking for something to do. There is still housing going up, but not nearly enough to keep them all busy.

Every area is different. Some places are a treasure trove of service work, some have lots of new construction, and some areas are so depressed that no one can make money. I can charge reasonably well here and the customers still like me and will hire me again. But I can't grow.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

What a shame, thats a nice disposer and basket strainer


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Talk about a DEEP seal "P" trap :yes:
We had too many plumbers in our area for the population for years and some quit plumbing some retired. When it was my turn to blow and go, there went the economy. I started contracting in 1983 the bottom fell out ? Is there a higher force at work here? surely the economy is not revolving around me!
When people get layed off they become handymen. I have been seeing a hugh increase.


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## UnclogNH (Mar 28, 2009)

You taking pictures of under peoples sinks in my area again :laughing:
I feel your pain It's hard to grow a company in a depressed area


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

I thought it was hilarious that the "trap" went up into a vent but was separated by a baffle tee. When I got there, only the daughter was home and she said her mom would be back in a minute. She came in just as I was getting out the camera and wanted to know why I was taking a picture of it. I told her it was because we like to share the really bizarre stuff online and her eyes went wide. 

As to growth, I've never understood it in this area. Things that should work don't. It's sort of a tug-of-war between the gremlins and the luck fairies.


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## Pipedoc (Jun 14, 2009)

Herk said:


> ......I was getting out the camera and wanted to know why I was taking a picture of it. I told her it was because we like to share the really bizarre stuff online and her eyes went wide.


Uhm, its because, uhm, uhm, we like to uhm, take pictures of all of the work we uhm, uhm, quote. Yeah, thats it! :laughing:


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

That one is pretty bad. A simple Center Outlet Waste would have cured all of it.:whistling2:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Who roughed that in??? Trailer home plumbers? Thats funny they asked about the camera!:laughing:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

*update*



slickrick said:


> Greetings my fellow plumbers. This is my 1st post.
> I have been plumbing 35 yrs, contracting 25 ,several states and 1 third world country (Iraq ). And I still don't have all the answers. Looking for some feedback. I live and operate in a rural area in NE Texas Doing service/ remodel work. Plumbers are getting out or retiring.I bought out the oldest shop and put it with mine to form the largest plumber in our county 3 trucks (big Deal. small population) after a year and a half one plumber that had been with me 12 years and another one I hired out of Dallas started passing out cards to my customers on my time saying they could do it cheaper next time. End of that friendship. The other one has ADD and it really shows sometime,seems like a time bomb waiting to go off. We aquired a store front with the new business which does not make a profit and I do not like cutting my own throat selling to the public wanting my free advice.I made more profit with me and my son doing the work with a lot less headaches.Finding a licensed plumber around here is next to impossible. I am 52 and can still work as hard as any 20 year old. I am thinking about downsizing. During this economic slowdown it may be a good move.Maybe it's not time for me to ease up yet. I guess we gotta do what we gotta do! :yes:


Just an update, Told one guy I no longer needed him and his buddy quit.
What did Doris Day say " Kay Sara Sara " My stress level is already down!
I will let you guys know at the end of the month how it's working.

Rickey


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> :laughing: My response wasn't a directed at the poster's situation. It was a genuine question for those who choose to stay at one truck.
> 
> How do you stay at one truck as your customer base grows?


IMHO- to answer the question... my opinion is this. RAISE PRICES and start picking and choosing your base clientel possibly weeding out some PIA customers or slow payers. Eventually, you have a base population of regulers that you hand picked. At least thats my current 5 year goal here.


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## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

slickrick said:


> Greetings my fellow plumbers. This is my 1st post.
> I have been plumbing 35 yrs, contracting 25 ,several states and 1 third world country (Iraq ). And I still don't have all the answers. Looking for some feedback. I live and operate in a rural area in NE Texas Doing service/ remodel work. Plumbers are getting out or retiring.I bought out the oldest shop and put it with mine to form the largest plumber in our county 3 trucks (big Deal. small population) after a year and a half one plumber that had been with me 12 years and another one I hired out of Dallas started passing out cards to my customers on my time saying they could do it cheaper next time. End of that friendship. The other one has ADD and it really shows sometime,seems like a time bomb waiting to go off. We aquired a store front with the new business which does not make a profit and I do not like cutting my own throat selling to the public wanting my free advice.I made more profit with me and my son doing the work with a lot less headaches.Finding a licensed plumber around here is next to impossible. I am 52 and can still work as hard as any 20 year old. I am thinking about downsizing. During this economic slowdown it may be a good move.Maybe it's not time for me to ease up yet. I guess we gotta do what we gotta do! :yes:


I am glad to hear a couple of my former employee's have found gainful employment.

I swear to god, I thought I was reading my own biography for a second there. Like a bad flash back. I personally have downsized my world for a while. I found some facets of the plumbing industry I want to explore that will eventually be a very good living that does not require employees. When things slowed down and got real tuff here in SW Florida my very best and most loyal guys really started to stick it to me. 

I am by no means discrediting larger companies. Theres a damn good life to be had there as well. It is a personal choice for me as to whether or not the headaches that come with them are worth it. The legalities and risk associated with human resources has made it challenging to employ people today.

IMHO- my .02


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

I just remembered one more funny thing about the pic I posted - none of the ABS fittings were glued. That made it a lot easier to fix. That can in the corner of the photo is PVC glue, and I have no idea where they planned to use it.


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