# So I'm walking down the plumbing isle at Blowes...



## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

And this caught my eye...










Some poor shmuck brought his crap in and wanted to see if it fit into this fitting. Then he couldn't get it back out. Hee hee!

Upon loser inspection I saw the soldered (???) end. Check it out...










Ha! That literally fell apart on the guy. So instead of hiring a professional, he goes to Blowes (aka Lowes) to buy more stuff to cobble together. And then he loses his piece to boot.

Hee hee!

Anyways, I bought 4 Sloan flush valves for $10.00 each there. 

(Sorry for the crappy cell phone pics.)


----------



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

What kind of quick lock design is that?


----------



## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

Plumberman said:


> What kind of quick lock design is that?


Not sure. Copper body. Permanent. (Can't remove it like a Shark-Bite.) Sold in bulk only. They don't sell many according to my source. I will watch and someday they will go on clearance for pennies on the dollar and I will buy them and sell them to some poor shmuck on eBay.


----------



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Looks like swedge lock, at least thats what its called down here. Probly about as good as this......


----------



## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

The best part of the post was the $10.00 SLOAN valves. How did that happen?


----------



## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

para1 said:


> The best part of the post was the $10.00 SLOAN valves. How did that happen?


Clearance.


----------



## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

I see by the pix they are not removable, we have a Blowes here in town. May need to see what they are.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I think Nibco makes them...

Blowes also sells GatorBites which are like SharkBites....


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

There called q-tite fitting. I don't use them myself, just did a research on them.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Oops I guess it's Elkhart that makes them...


----------



## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

para1 said:


> The best part of the post was the $10.00 SLOAN valves. How did that happen?


Too many HO's returning (full of solder) them and complaining they won't fit there briggs toilets.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Never saw those q-tite fittings before but I certainly wouldn't use those......look at how shallow the sockets are. 


More and more.......the trade is by far losing its shirt with such easy designs to work with plumbing.


You heard it here first but drain fittings are soon to follow. I can't see how it couldn't.

For one, it doesn't take on a huge amount of pressure, just gravity flow.


----------



## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

DUNBAR said:


> Never saw those q-tite fittings before but I certainly wouldn't use those......look at how shallow the sockets are.
> 
> 
> More and more.......the trade is by far losing its shirt with such easy designs to work with plumbing.
> ...


I am under the impression that such fittings are commonly used in Europe.

By the professionals.

I really, really think the trade is making a mistake by complaining that this or that makes the job easier for a DIYer or a hack. 

Besides all the flaws with that kind of thinking, by focusing on the protectionism aspect we miss the bigger picture.

Look, soldering intimidates people. But all they have to do is educate themselves and almost anyone can make a solid solder joint. I have taught preteen boys how to make them and they picked it right up.

Know how to make a pipe joint is not what makes us valuable. It's the ability to look at the big picture and determine how all the details should come together. 

Seriously guys, how much of the code book is devoted to pipe joints? Come on! We spend a LOT of energy *****ing about this one thing and it is only a tiny fraction of the code. Whoop-de-do! It's knowing the entire code and how to apply it that makes us valuable. But instead of recognizing that we would rather ***** that any old shmuck can now join copper or PEX together. 

The ability to join a pipe with a Sharkbite does not make you a plumber. It is meaningless. Neither does the ability to solder a joint. Any shmuck can learn how to make a nice solder joint. So what? That doesn't make him a plumber. But we go on and on about how a Sharkbite threatens the trades.

Well guess what? The guy buying a Sharkbite wasn't gonna call you to begin with. Besides, he is gonna screw it up just like he would have screwed anything else up. 

We truly are our own worst enemies. And I am referring specifically to focusing on such an easily refutable issue (Sharkbites/PEX/PVC/Whatever killing the trade.) while failing to recognize and communicate the value we actually bring to the table.

Don't get me wrong, craftsmanlike joints are part of every professional plumber's value. You have seen some of my work. You know I am not defending crappy work or lessening the value of craftsmanlike work. Don't even go there.

But until we get off our "Sharkbites are gonna hurt us because anyone can use them." hobbyhorses and learn to understand and communicate our true value better, we will continue the slide into being a commodity. And when that happens some of you will be pointing back at Sharkbites as the reason Joe Blow thinks plumbers bring no value to the table.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

22rifle said:


> I am under the impression that such fittings are commonly used in Europe.
> 
> By the professionals.
> 
> ...


*Bravo! *
*You said it all!*
The attitude we have is what is killing the trade.
I consider Sharkbites to be just another tool in the box...

When late in the afternoon or, early evening faced with a sweat job in a condo that has a leaking shut off for the unit that won't close completely out comes the sharkbite on a valve, Change it on the fly and the job is done...

A large house or apartment with a never ending drainback...
You've done everything you can to divert and used a jet sweat for everything you can. Now that last connection and the damn water is killing you... It's sharkbite time so you can get to Miller Time!

Face it! The DIYers aren't going to disappear! I blame it on This Old House! 
They let the cat out of the bag initially and it's not going back.

There are DIYers out there that are very knowlegable and do decent work on their projects. There are also some that don't know their limitations. A lot of my work especially on Saturdays is rescuing them. I love it! They have given their best shot and have given up! It's like fishing in a barrel! The water is off and they can't turn it on until that tub/shower valve is installed. Yee Haaaa! It's showtime!

I also have done many jobs where a knowledgable DIYer knew their limitations and wanted a part of a job done. No problem here! Usually things are opened up and the work area is clean and ready for me to do my thing. 

Many times in fact I was called out in the initial planning stages of the job to consult and was paid for it. During that consult I looked at what needed to be done and discussed what he was doing and what I was doing as well as what needed to be done before during and after my work. The home owner then called me ahead of time to schedule the work and had everything done that needed to be done, I did the work and it was a very pleasant experience.

I imagine there was similar debate when that new fangled vitrified clay, cast iron and galvanized pipe replaced wood pipe too! After all it took a true craftsman to whittle and bore out a log to make a pipe... Any monkey could run that newfangled stuff.

As always you need to carefully spell out on the invoice what work you did to limit your responsibility to your own work!


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

22rifle said:


> I am under the impression that such fittings are commonly used in Europe.
> 
> By the professionals.
> 
> ...


 

I've been hanging around NHMaster3015...:yes:


----------



## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

BTW, don't take my rant as a blankety endorsement of Sharkbites or anything else. I was talking about something far bigger than a stupid fitting.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Me too!!!

I cringe at the thought of an idiot walking into big box buying a roll of 1/2" Zurn PEX and $400 worth of Sharbites or Gatorbites and it going to go home and repipe his house.

But face it! This idiot is not the customer you wanted anyhow! All he was going to do is waste your time and pull your chain...

For him the reality will hit after he realizes the job was hopelessly botched or the home is up for sale and the mess has to be cleaned up for the sale or, by the new owner.

There is no way we can go back as I said the cat is out of the bag!
Blame it on Bob n Norm!

All we can do is wade through the crap one job at a time!



> *God,
> Grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
> the Courage to change the things I can
> and the Wisdom to know the difference.*
> ...


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Ahhh its a topic that's been circling the wagons on many forums lately about DIY'rs and the plumbing profession and where it's going.


I just landed a PowerVent replacement before lunch so my profession is secure at least till 1pm tomorrow! :thumbup:



I tell everybody I'm installing my last water heater this year about 5 months ago and now I've got an addiction to installing them! They are addicting when the customer has the heater right next to the old one and no steps! Woooooooo-hoooooooooooooooo!!! :thumbup:


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

DUNBAR said:


> Ahhh its a topic that's been circling the wagons on many forums lately about DIY'rs and the plumbing profession and where it's going.
> 
> 
> I just landed a PowerVent replacement before lunch so my profession is secure at least till 1pm tomorrow! :thumbup:
> ...


The only thing better than that would be if the customer already drained it, and, that as soon as you had it disconnected rolled it outside into a roll off that he had in the yard!:thumbup:

Sometimes you have to pinch yourself to stop dreaming though...
I had it happen once!


----------



## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

22rifle said:


> BTW, don't take my rant as a blankety endorsement of Sharkbites or anything else. I was talking about something far bigger than a stupid fitting.


*I didn't.*
*For that matter, it made sense.*
*I am NOT about to endorse sharkbites, or any "solderless" copper crap, but you did make a good point...there's a whole boat-load more to plumbing than simple joint connection.*


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Amen brother! _:clap:_ This house is clear.


_I am under the impression that such fittings are commonly used in Europe.

By the professionals.

I really, really think the trade is making a mistake by complaining that this or that makes the job easier for a DIYer or a hack. 

Besides all the flaws with that kind of thinking, by focusing on the protectionism aspect we miss the bigger picture.

Look, soldering intimidates people. But all they have to do is educate themselves and almost anyone can make a solid solder joint. I have taught preteen boys how to make them and they picked it right up.

Know how to make a pipe joint is not what makes us valuable. It's the ability to look at the big picture and determine how all the details should come together. 

Seriously guys, how much of the code book is devoted to pipe joints? Come on! We spend a LOT of energy *****ing about this one thing and it is only a tiny fraction of the code. Whoop-de-do! It's knowing the entire code and how to apply it that makes us valuable. But instead of recognizing that we would rather ***** that any old shmuck can now join copper or PEX together. 

The ability to join a pipe with a Sharkbite does not make you a plumber. It is meaningless. Neither does the ability to solder a joint. Any shmuck can learn how to make a nice solder joint. So what? That doesn't make him a plumber. But we go on and on about how a Sharkbite threatens the trades.

Well guess what? The guy buying a Sharkbite wasn't gonna call you to begin with. Besides, he is gonna screw it up just like he would have screwed anything else up. 

We truly are our own worst enemies. And I am referring specifically to focusing on such an easily refutable issue (Sharkbites/PEX/PVC/Whatever killing the trade.) while failing to recognize and communicate the value we actually bring to the table.

Don't get me wrong, craftsmanlike joints are part of every professional plumber's value. You have seen some of my work. You know I am not defending crappy work or lessening the value of craftsmanlike work. Don't even go there.

But until we get off our "Sharkbites are gonna hurt us because anyone can use them." hobbyhorses and learn to understand and communicate our true value better, we will continue the slide into being a commodity. And when that happens some of you will be pointing back at Sharkbites as the reason Joe Blow thinks plumbers bring no value to the table_





*Bravo! *
*You said it all!*
_The attitude we have is what is killing the trade.
I consider Sharkbites to be just another tool in the box...

When late in the afternoon or, early evening faced with a sweat job in a condo that has a leaking shut off for the unit that won't close completely out comes the sharkbite on a valve, Change it on the fly and the job is done...

A large house or apartment with a never ending drainback...
You've done everything you can to divert and used a jet sweat for everything you can. Now that last connection and the damn water is killing you... It's sharkbite time so you can get to Miller Time!

Face it! The DIYers aren't going to disappear! I blame it on This Old House! 
They let the cat out of the bag initially and it's not going back.

There are DIYers out there that are very knowlegable and do decent work on their projects. There are also some that don't know their limitations. A lot of my work especially on Saturdays is rescuing them. I love it! They have given their best shot and have given up! It's like fishing in a barrel! The water is off and they can't turn it on until that tub/shower valve is installed. Yee Haaaa! It's showtime!

I also have done many jobs where a knowledgable DIYer knew their limitations and wanted a part of a job done. No problem here! Usually things are opened up and the work area is clean and ready for me to do my thing. 

Many times in fact I was called out in the initial planning stages of the job to consult and was paid for it. During that consult I looked at what needed to be done and discussed what he was doing and what I was doing as well as what needed to be done before during and after my work. The home owner then called me ahead of time to schedule the work and had everything done that needed to be done, I did the work and it was a very pleasant experience.

I imagine there was similar debate when that new fangled vitrified clay, cast iron and galvanized pipe replaced wood pipe too! After all it took a true craftsman to whittle and bore out a log to make a pipe... Any monkey could run that newfangled stuff.

As always you need to carefully spell out on the invoice what work you did to limit your responsibility to your own work!_


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Just watched the "just for copper" video. They left out the part where even though you follow the instructions to the tee, you still end up with a drip half the time. Nor did they mention that it only works with perfectly round hard new hard copper and even that is dicey. How bout when it grabs in mid plunge and you now have to cut the whole assembly out of the wall/ground/cieling and do more demo to try again. Yeah great stuff


----------



## GrumpyPlumber (Jun 12, 2008)

*Lets not go from acknowledging sharkbites won't kill the trade to encouraging DIY'ers here.*
*In my state it's illegal to DIY plumbing or electrical, maybe not in others.*

*For the condo scenario, Jet-Sweats work great.*


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Historically all trades are inundated with new products. Some good, some not so good. What we do by trying and either accepting or rejecting these products is to control what stays and what goes. When PVC hit the market there was a firestorm of controversy among plumbers. Most saying that it was the beginning of the end. (maybe they were right) Thing is, I dont think any of us wants to go back to hanging and leading C.I. pipe full time. That doesn't men we should blindly accept every product that comes on the market though. The pro-press salesman is a very convincing guy, and though I own one, I'm still not convinced but that's me. Same goes for sharkbites. I use them for testing and repair that I intend to fix right later, but I'm just not comfortable with them as a perminant repair. The young guys are usually the first to try and buy into the new things as well they should be. Those of us with a few years on them have seen stuff come and go so we tend to be a bit more cautious. The one trend that disturbes me more than anything though is the notion that we need to rush everything and get in and out in blinding speed. Never forget that we are craftsmen and sometimes the craft takes a little time.

P.S. AAV'S are always HACK plumbing


----------



## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

For the record, I refuse to use PP at this point. I flat out do not trust it.


----------

