# I.C.C. code VS. IAPMO



## MASTER-3 (Feb 3, 2010)

*I.C.C. VS. IAPMO or I.P.C. VS U.P.C. Which Do You Like Better*

For me I like them both, but I favor the I.P.C. more because of its close 
relationship with the I.C.C. (International Code Council)... It's changed my life for the better. I have obtained all 3 of my Master License's through the I.C.C. & union training. 

The licenses I hold are National Standard: Master Plumber, Master Mechancial (A), Master Gas Pipe Fitter, not to mention my National Building Contractors License...
As one can see its revolutionized my life for the Best...

What are some of your accomplishments? We'd love to hear them?


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

master-3 said:


> which Do You Like Better


Upc


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## ranman (Jan 24, 2010)

i hold licenses in both and i prefer the IPC

most of the city`s around here now inspect on ipc where it used to be only upc.


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## smythers1968 (Feb 4, 2009)

I hold licenses in both

I like the UPC because there are only two books to carry UPC/UMC

Unlike the ICC, IPC/IMC and Fuel gas

Most all jusrisdictions here have switched to UPC

Its my understanding that the ICC is stemed off the Uniform code


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## plumber boy (Feb 5, 2010)

i like the IPC for the venting part of it, other than that i didnt mind the UPC....


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## MASTER-3 (Feb 3, 2010)

great


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## smythers1968 (Feb 4, 2009)

plumber boy said:


> i like the IPC for the venting part of it, other than that i didnt mind the UPC....


Just curious what part specifically?


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## plumber boy (Feb 5, 2010)

smythers1968 said:


> Just curious what part specifically?





the use of auto vents, and wet venting............


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## smythers1968 (Feb 4, 2009)

plumber boy said:


> the use of auto vents, and wet venting............


 
UPC allows wet venting

Only a handyman uses a AAV. I have always found a way to vent without a POS AAV

Just my $.02


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

smythers1968 said:


> UPC allows wet venting
> 
> Only a handyman uses a AAV. I have always found a way to vent without a POS AAV
> 
> Just my $.02


how are you going to vent an island drain that code doesnt allow loop vents?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

house plumber said:


> how are you going to vent an island drain that code doesnt allow loop vents?


Sounds like Studor musta paid someone off at the statehouse...:laughing:


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## smythers1968 (Feb 4, 2009)

9 times out of ten if you are needing to do an island drain/vent the HO is doing a remodel and you can get it done correctly.

If that one time I can not do a proper island drain/vent and all the option is to install an AAV. I'll turn down the job. 

IMHO an AAV is a cop out. A mechanical device that can fail. 

Had a customer call for a kitchen sink slow to drain and toliet bolw that would almost empty when she drained the sink.

Some dumb azz terminated the vent in the attic with a AAV. Cut off the AAV and went through the roof.

Again this is just my $.02 If you choose to use them then :thumbsup:


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

smythers1968 said:


> 9 times out of ten if you are needing to do an island drain/vent the HO is doing a remodel and you can get it done correctly.
> 
> If that one time I can not do a proper island drain/vent and all the option is to install an AAV. I'll turn down the job.
> 
> ...


every single new construction house we do has an island drain. then 99% also has an island prep sink. so there is no way around it.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Sounds like Studor musta paid someone off at the statehouse...:laughing:


 
thats how it is in custom homes


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## ranman (Jan 24, 2010)

aav`s have their place. and they must be installed correctly and a approved product. the approved ones are not mechanical. the small black ones give all the other ones a bad name.

they will almost never work on a septic tank system. or if the building drain holds water


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## smythers1968 (Feb 4, 2009)

house plumber said:


> every single new construction house we do has an island drain. then 99% also has an island prep sink. so there is no way around it.


 
Then where I'm at it would not pass the code dude


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## smythers1968 (Feb 4, 2009)

ranman said:


> aav`s have their place. and they must be installed correctly and a approved product. the approved ones are not mechanical. the small black ones give all the other ones a bad name.
> 
> they will almost never work on a septic tank system. or if the building drain holds water


 
Can you post a brand and model of the one aav that you are talking about that is not mechanical.

I'd like to see it

I have never seen one without moving parts inside


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

smythers1968 said:


> Then where I'm at it would not pass the code dude


it does pass code here dude.


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## smythers1968 (Feb 4, 2009)

house plumber said:


> it does pass code here dude.


 
o k


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

It's kinda funny...
Years ago the only place you saw AAV's was on tin houses on wheels...
Now the tin houses on wheels have vents through the roof...
And multi million dollar custom homes have AAV's...

Go Figure...:blink:


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## ranman (Jan 24, 2010)

smythers1968 said:


> Can you post a brand and model of the one aav that you are talking about that is not mechanical.
> 
> I'd like to see it
> 
> I have never seen one without moving parts inside


http://www.ipscorp.com/pdf/studor/Studor_MiniVent_Spec_Sep08.pdf

the ones every one thinks about are the black ones with a spring and a plunger that closes


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## smythers1968 (Feb 4, 2009)

ranman said:


> http://www.ipscorp.com/pdf/studor/Studor_MiniVent_Spec_Sep08.pdf
> 
> the ones every one thinks about are the black ones with a spring and a plunger that closes


 
Under Features, letter A it states it has a membrane. To me that is still mechanical and the sealing membrane can fail.


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## ranman (Jan 24, 2010)

smythers1968 said:


> Under Features, letter A it states it has a membrane. To me that is still mechanical and the sealing membrane can fail.


 i understand what your saying.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

everything fails. isn't that what gives service plumbers work?


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## plumber boy (Feb 5, 2010)

smythers1968 said:


> UPC allows wet venting
> 
> Only a handyman uses a AAV. I have always found a way to vent without a POS AAV
> 
> Just my $.02




we do alot of homes that has windows all the way across the top of bath lavs. no way to vent other than auto vent, we do use the approved vents as well.

also some remodels we use them......


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## plumber boy (Feb 5, 2010)

smythers1968 said:


> UPC allows wet venting




it is only one fixture, or thats what it was when i used it, i have not plumbed with the upc for about 10 years, you can do complete bathroom groups with ipc.


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## ranman (Jan 24, 2010)

IPC wet venting and combination drain and vent are the best. i really hate the upc flat vent! 

the guys i work with only understand the upc as that is what the union teaches. when i talk about ipc ,they don`t believe it can be done that way.

some people will never accept new ways. but they better. every city inspect on ipc and not upc. the union is dead set against teaching the ipc. but they will have to someday or they will not be able to compete


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

We all seem to be in our own little bubble. To think that a code used in your town is what is used everywhere is a bit off. UPC Is what is used where I live. I dont think IPC is used at all in my state. Dont really know for sure But I have never heard of IPC being used here. And weather I like it or not I use whatever code I am required to. Unless its not being inspected then it falls under jeff's code. I do whatever I feel like. As far as a studer vent. I heard of people using them here, even heard some inspectors alow them. As far as I know they are not legal , any where Ive ever worked. Would I use one hell yes in a pinch Why not? Because it might fail? Hell I guess I shouldnt use abs pipe because it might fail too! or copper, or pex, or anything!


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

jeffreyplumber said:


> We all seem to be in our own little bubble. To think that a code used in your town is what is used everywhere is a bit off. UPC Is what is used where I live. I dont think IPC is used at all in my state. Dont really know for sure But I have never heard of IPC being used here. And weather I like it or not I use whatever code I am required to. Unless its not being inspected then it falls under jeff's code. I do whatever I feel like. As far as a studer vent. I heard of people using them here, even heard some inspectors alow them. As far as I know they are not legal , any where Ive ever worked. Would I use one hell yes in a pinch Why not? Because it might fail? Hell I guess I shouldnt use abs pipe because it might fail too! or copper, or pex, or anything!


The State of California has adopted the UPC as the CPC so you won't see the IPC in California at all.

Most of the States where I work use the UPC but I am certified by both the ICC and the IAMPO as an Inspector.

Mark


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> The State of California has adopted the UPC as the CPC so you won't see the IPC in California at all.
> 
> Most of the States where I work use the UPC but I am certified by both the ICC and the IAMPO as an Inspector.
> 
> Mark


I thought we only had UPC, So then a studor vent cant be used any where in the state. at least in homes or buildings. I think trailers or mobile homes might allow it.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

jeffreyplumber said:


> I thought we only had UPC, So then a studor vent cant be used any where in the state. at least in homes or buildings. I think trailers or mobile homes might allow it.


The CPC is the UPC with the California amendments added. You may have additional County and City amendments. Trailers and mobile homes are governed by the DMV in California so the CPC does not apply to them. Some Inspectors will allow an AAV but they are not really approved for general use.

Mark


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

I see them on outdoor location like a barbeque with sink on a Island. Thats What Im talking about, Its not legal but I would possibly do it dosent seem like a big deal. I figure if it works in Arizona It might work in California too!


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## winslow (Jan 3, 2010)

house plumber said:


> how are you going to vent an island drain that code doesnt allow loop vents?


with a foot vent, as stated in the UPC.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

winslow said:


> with a foot vent, as stated in the UPC.


 
not legal here. fl code is based off icc


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

winslow said:


> with a foot vent, as stated in the UPC.


Sure Ive plumbed hundreds of Island sinks. But when someone is adding a little barbeque and sink I hate to have to run a vent over to a spot in the yard and then run a 10 foot stack up (looks like hell) or bust out a bunch of stucco to tie the vent in inside the house. Ive done it though, The code does seem a little restrictive and un nessesary though. What was someone talking about UPC flat venting, I Dont have a problem with other issues involving venting. I just think they should lighten up on special circumstances. As far as I know an inspector is breaking code to allow a studor vent under UPC. I dont know legaly if they have a right to allow it


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## plumber boy (Feb 5, 2010)

jeffreyplumber said:


> . As far as I know an inspector is breaking code to allow a studor vent under UPC. I dont know legaly if they have a right to allow it



i haven't seen the upc code for a while, but it used to be that if the code official approved it, an auto vent was permitted.


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## MASTER-3 (Feb 3, 2010)

LISTEN!!!
I've heard everyone's concern, dislike, dismay, opinions, etc. & you all have very 

good reasonings/answers BUT, "The once & for all true response to this delima of 

AVV, Wet-Venting, Separate Venting IS"....

1st. = If & when the Engineer/Architect signs off on those approved plans with his seal (1) & the planning & zoning approve them then its out of your hands, the code book hands, because your code officials have officially signed off on the plans but making there Dept./City/State liable legally (which sets them up to be sued if not coorectly reviewed)

2nd = thats the only thing that matters isn't it if the code officials sign off on it??


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

In our juridiction Ive never seen a set of plans weather approved or otherwise calling for Studor vent Now your talking about something that has been Engineered and Approved by the building department. Dont know how that works. I had a gas line installed per plan under a patio cover and the inspector said after it was all done that this had to be fixed it was against code it needed to be sleeved and vented as per UPC code. It opened a whole can of worms but you say if its on the plans its all good? We got a letter from the gas co. stating it was ok and they let it slide It was a public elementary school.


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## ranman (Jan 24, 2010)

oops i changed my mind


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## markb (Jun 11, 2009)

Does the IPC or UPC allow multi-storey wet-venting? (The National Plumbing code does  ) 

Wet-venting a laundry tub/laundry machine with a kitchen sink\dishwasher on the floor above is now standard in the homes that we do. 

Or wet-venting a bar sink (basement), with a kitchen sink/dishwasher (first floor) and two lavs (second floor). What a system!

I never seemed to understand the reason for soo many different plumbing codes all over the USA. Why not have one uniform code? (Except for Chigago, they don't seem as they will ever change lol)


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

markb said:


> Does the IPC or UPC allow multi-storey wet-venting? (The National Plumbing code does  )
> 
> Wet-venting a laundry tub/laundry machine with a kitchen sink\dishwasher on the floor above is now standard in the homes that we do.
> 
> ...


That's a real nice wish...
But don't hold your breath you'll turn blue...:laughing:


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

Its funny you do things by code for years thinking theres a good reason for it then you find out that next door they do it different and it works just fine?
Wet Venting between floors ? Ive never done it!


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## markb (Jun 11, 2009)

Works fine. No problems as long as you size properly. The new condos here have 30 storey wet-vented kitchen sinks on a 4" stack to open air.


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## plumber boy (Feb 5, 2010)

markb said:


> I never seemed to understand the reason for soo many different plumbing codes all over the USA. Why not have one uniform code? (Except for Chigago, they don't seem as they will ever change lol)




it would be nice if there was just one, but the problem we have with the one we have now is to many interpretations, depends on how its read.........


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## ranman (Jan 24, 2010)

plumber boy said:


> it would be nice if there was just one, but the problem we have with the one we have now is to many interpretations, depends on how its read.........


that is why i carry a commentary with my code book. if theres a debate i ask them to prove it.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

Actualy the more complex and confusing it is makes people need a professional. with all these codes to worry about, Heaven forbid the mech. with common sence.


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## plumber boy (Feb 5, 2010)

ranman said:


> that is why i carry a commentary with my code book. if theres a debate i ask them to prove it.



thats the problem, they dont have to prove it... you do. 

they are the administrative authorities, and if they interpret it one way, and you other, you have to prove to them why you are right, alot on inspectors around here dont acknowledge the commentary..


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## ranman (Jan 24, 2010)

plumber boy said:


> thats the problem, they dont have to prove it... you do.
> 
> they are the administrative authorities, and if they interpret it one way, and you other, you have to prove to them why you are right, alot on inspectors around here dont acknowledge the commentary..


for a violation they have to site the section that puts you in violation. then i review it with they in the code and the commentary. i point out to the inspector nicely that they wrote the code and the commentary so there is no need for our interpretation just understanding.


99% of the time if you present your case respectful and concisely things work out.

i was a member of a inspectors association and they are just like us. some you can talk to and some will be bull headed.


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## plumber boy (Feb 5, 2010)

ranman said:


> for a violation they have to site the section that puts you in violation. then i review it with they in the code and the commentary. i point out to the inspector nicely that they wrote the code and the commentary so there is no need for our interpretation just understanding.
> 
> 
> 99% of the time if you present your case respectful and concisely things work out.
> ...



i know the upc had a section that said the inspector had to wright the sec. of the code for the violation, the ipc does not, so if they see something they think is wrong, they right it down and you have to show them in the code that it is legal.......

yeah some of em are good to work with, i teach the 3rd and fourth year apprenticeship program so i think i know the code here, but some of the inspectors still want you to prove they are wrong.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

Havent had much problem with inspectors, usualy the dis agreement stems from him being technicaly right and us trying not to do something the way he says. I have had them tell me something was not legal , quated the code section and then , I prooved that my work conformed. He tryed to tell me I cant run water and sewer in the same trench , I prooved it legal (by the pipe I was using) He backed off and admited It was legal.


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## ranman (Jan 24, 2010)

ipc 18.2 and the commentary cover their duty. to site the section that is allegedly being violated so the responsible person can respond to the notice. 

a red tag without a section of violation. is just a red tag. i have been down that rode with older inspectors who have not had any new training on the plumbing law changes in 20 years . it is code rule, not opinion rule. and i will challenge them on it. 99% of the time it works out well and we become friends. they are not use to anyone question them. and anyone has the ability to be wrong


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## 1plumb4uall (Jan 6, 2010)

markb said:


> Does the IPC or UPC allow multi-storey wet-venting? (The National Plumbing code does  )
> 
> Wet-venting a laundry tub/laundry machine with a kitchen sink\dishwasher on the floor above is now standard in the homes that we do.
> 
> ...


Wet venting fixtures on sepreate floors isn't wet venting it's not venting.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

1plumb4uall said:


> Wet venting fixtures on sepreate floors isn't wet venting it's not venting.


UPC code allows wet venting on the same floor. between floors prohibited


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## ranman (Jan 24, 2010)

1plumb4uall said:


> Wet venting fixtures on sepreate floors isn't wet venting it's not venting.



ipc you can wet vent multi floor. section 910, t-910.4


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