# Long Pipe Burst



## plbgbiz

Ready for the first 220' burst...


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## Mississippiplum

They pull alot of hdpe here with db machines, post some after pics for us :thumbup:


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## AlbacoreShuffle

Thats one long tug !


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## user2090

plbgbiz said:


> Ready for the first 220' burst...


What is the machine rated for? I know I have said it before, but I just love that technology. 

I remember a time when I helped knife in a new wire for a sewage pump, just couldn't get the lead guy to understand there was too much friction and that is why the wire kept breaking. After a long time and many phone calls I recommended we dig a hole in the middle and pull both ways. :w00t:


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## Will

Cool stuff there. What is the largest pipe you can pull? How about a picture of you trenchless machine?


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## Michaelcookplum

Is that a tractor tire on the side?


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## DesertOkie

Pulled 280 once into the street. I don't see how it works here with the wet soil, in AZ we dug with a jackhammer and spade bit. The plate didn't even crease the dirt but this slush in OK, I would be afraid to pull that long. 

I take it the tire is to hold your pulling cable.


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## plbgbiz

Will said:


> ...What is the largest pipe you can pull?...





Indie said:


> What is the machine rated for?...


40 tons - up to 6".

Although depending on the circumstances, it would probably do a short run of 8".


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## plbgbiz

Michaelcookplum said:


> Is that a tractor tire on the side?





DesertOkie said:


> I take it the tire is to hold your pulling cable.


It was just an old tire left laying in the vacant lot. We use chain for the pulling, not cable.


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## plbgbiz

This one is all 6" HDPE. 450' total.


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## U666A

plbgbiz said:


> It was just an old tire left laying in the vacant lot. We use chain for the pulling, not cable.


Here John, that lighter guage chain you ordered just came in...











:laughing:


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## bizzybeeplumbin

I really wish it was approved here, did a ton of pipe burst and pipe lining in Los Angeles. Pipe bursting is not approved in my new location. It would save a ton of yards and driveways!


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## Richard Hilliard

Very nice John. We have to hire a guy to pipe burst 60 foot of 8 inch at a retirement community.Somneone ran 120 foot of pvc then connected to 60 foot of clay then 40 foot of pvc after that due to three trees. Guess where the problem is with the sewer! LOL


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## plbgbiz

Pulled about 250' of 6" today...


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## plbgbiz

The pipe separates from the pulling head at the end of the last video. This is the first time I used this extension frame on 6" and the front brace is a bit too high. It is OK for 2" to 4" but the bigger 6" head comes over the brace at an odd angle causing the pipe to start to break off.

A simple modification will make this little snafu go away.

Pulling the pipe is the easy part. The chain weighs in at almost 5lbs per foot.


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## plbgbiz

Electrofusion sewer saddle wye....

The clamps are just temporary until the fitting cools down. After that, nothing will be able to remove the saddle from the top of the pipe.


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## GREENPLUM

thanks for the pics


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## bizzybeeplumbin

Such a great technology!

Thanks for sharing again


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## SlickRick

John, I take it that if that separation had occurred at a less desirable spot, that it could turn into a major OS moment.


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## AlbacoreShuffle

Thats some cool toys you have. Thanks for posting the videos.

That sure looks shallow for a 250' pull.
Did you have to go back and tye in a bunch of laterals, or was that line servicing just one trailer ?


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## Will

How do you install cleanouts on the HDPE pipe?


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## Mississippiplum

That is defintly cool right there, such a great technology.


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## plbgbiz

Will said:


> How do you install cleanouts on the HDPE pipe?


The electrofusion saddles on these 6" diameter long runs. On shorter residential lines the c/o is installed at the stub out and then connected to the HDPE.


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## plbgbiz

SlickRick said:


> John, I take it that if that separation had occurred at a less desirable spot, that it could turn into a major OS moment.


Oh yeah. With great reward comes great risk. 

This was a predictable problem because of the way I made the frame. It isn't likely to have that kind of breakover angle in the line. There's a lot of welded steel under that mud that caused the problem. The head just breaks out enything normally in the line. 

Building a new frame this week.


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## plbgbiz

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> ...That sure looks shallow for a 250' pull.
> Did you have to go back and tye in a bunch of laterals, or was that line servicing just one trailer ?


The grade follows as well so it never got really deep. Connecting 7 mobile homes with the electrofusion saddles on this run.


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## Widdershins

plbgbiz said:


> The grade follows as well so it never got really deep. Connecting 7 mobile homes with the electrofusion saddles on this run.


 I'd sure like to see a video of the fusion process if you have the time to make one.


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## plbgbiz

Widdershins said:


> I'd sure like to see a video of the fusion process if you have the time to make one.


Just stare at that photo for 90 seconds.


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## Redwood

SlickRick said:


> John, I take it that if that separation had occurred at a less desirable spot, that it could turn into a major OS moment.





plbgbiz said:


> Oh yeah. With great reward comes great risk.


We had one pull off on us just short of where we wanted to be... 

Fortunately we were able to hammer on it a couple of times with the excavator bucket and it came out right... That was a Phew moment...


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## Widdershins

plbgbiz said:


> Just stare at that photo for 90 seconds.


 I tried.

Then I saw the fetching D00d squatting in the ditch (exactly what is he doing with his left hand?), the power tool, the stainless bondage clamps and the inviting opening of the wye. . . . . .

That would be really hawt with a fist full of duck butter oozing out of the inlet, btw.

Just humor me and post a vid when you get around to it so I can stop questioning my sexuality.

BTW, if you don't look too closely, it looks like he has his left leg buried almost all the way up to the hip into the upstream opening of the wye.

Very hawt.


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## Widdershins

Redwood said:


> We had one pull off on us just short of where we wanted to be...


 You started it.


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## Redwood

Widders,
There really isn't anything to see in a video that isn't in the picture...

You clamp it in place, then juice it so it heats up and fuses in place...
After it has cooled you can take the clamps back as the fused material welds it in place...

Like Biz said just stare at the picture for 90 seconds... :laughing:


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## Widdershins

Redwood said:


> Widders,
> There really isn't anything to see in a video that isn't in the picture...
> 
> You clamp it in place, then juice it so it heats up and fuses in place...
> After it has cooled you can take the clamps back as the fused material welds it in place...
> 
> Like Biz said just stare at the picture for 90 seconds... :laughing:


What creates the weld?

Are there wires to complete the circuit in the ends of the pipe or the fittings?

This is all new to me -- Would it kill y'all to humor me?:blink:


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## Redwood

Widdershins said:


> What creates the weld?
> 
> Are there wires to complete the circuit in the ends of the pipe or the fittings?
> 
> This is all new to me -- Would it kill y'all to humor me?:blink:


There is a heating element built into the fitting molded in the plastic for a one time heating.

An interesting video would be to see the sections of pipe being joined together.
At least there is something that can be seen there...


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## Widdershins

Redwood said:


> There is a heating element built into the fitting molded in the plastic for a one time heating.
> 
> An interesting video would be to see the sections of pipe being joined together.
> At least there is something that can be seen there...


Isn't that what I asked for?

Pretty sure it is.


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## plbgbiz

Widdershins said:


> ...Just humor me and post a vid...


Will do Mr. Shins. Don't want to leaving you wondering which side to put the buttons on your shirt. :jester::laughing:
I'll get you some pics and vid next week, but for now here's the rundown...

As stated before, there is a coil of wires just barely covered by the material on the under side of the saddle (or inside of couplings, etc..). The two ends of the wire terminate where the leads of the fusion processor attach.

Each EF fitting has a bar code that is scanned by the user. Based on the bar code, the processor knows the fitting type, manufacturer, heating time, voltage needed, and cool down time required to make an acceptable connection.

Our processor is from MT Deason and it recognizes all of their fittings just by connecting the leads. By means of the scanner, it recognizes all other EF fittings and commences the fuse process accordingly. It also retains all fusing information such as the fitting, person doing the fuse, location of job, location of the specific fitting, date, time, etc. for future download to a computer. Some of this is overkill for our needs but the gas industry is the main user of this type of equipment and that stuff matters to them. 

After the fuse time is completed the processor prints out a receipt like an automated gasoline pump showing the progress of the fuse at different stages and whether or not it was successful. By monitoring heating time and temperature the processor can determine if a fitting was improperly positioned, got wet, or was disturbed during the process. When finished, the area of the fuse literally becomes part of the pipe making the connected area of pipe double its original thickness. 

That's why we chose this process for these saddles. It practically eliminates any damage or movement of the connections. They might even be earthquake proof which apparently is now an issue in central Oklahoma. :laughing:


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## Redwood

We have a slightly different method for joining sections of pipe together...

We don't use a coupling, instead we use the butt fusion method where the pipes are placed in a machine that trims the ends square. A thermostatically controlled heater plate is then placed between the 2 sections and the HDPE is heated until it is molten, then the heater plate is removed and the 2 pipes are pressed together and allowed to cool.

You will see a weld bead on both the inside and outside of the pipe which you can read for an indication of weld quality.


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## Widdershins

plbgbiz said:


> Will do Mr. Shins. Don't want to leaving you wondering which side to put the buttons on your shirt. :jester::laughing:
> I'll get you some pics and vid next week, but for now here's the rundown...
> 
> As stated before, there is a coil of wires just barely covered by the material on the under side of the saddle (or inside of couplings, etc..). The two ends of the wire terminate where the leads of the fusion processor attach.
> 
> Each EF fitting has a bar code that is scanned by the user. Based on the bar code, the processor knows the fitting type, manufacturer, heating time, voltage needed, and cool down time required to make an acceptable connection.
> 
> Our processor is from MT Deason and it recognizes all of their fittings just by connecting the leads. By means of the scanner, it recognizes all other EF fittings and commences the fuse process accordingly. It also retains all fusing information such as the fitting, person doing the fuse, location of job, location of the specific fitting, date, time, etc. for future download to a computer. Some of this is overkill for our needs but the gas industry is the main user of this type of equipment and that stuff matters to them.
> 
> After the fuse time is completed the processor prints out a receipt like an automated gasoline pump showing the progress of the fuse at different stages and whether or not it was successful. By monitoring heating time and temperature the processor can determine if a fitting was improperly positioned, got wet, or was disturbed during the process. When finished, the area of the fuse literally becomes part of the pipe making the connected area of pipe double its original thickness.
> 
> That's why we chose this process for these saddles. It practically eliminates any damage or movement of the connections. They might even be earthquake proof which apparently is now an issue in central Oklahoma. :laughing:


 That sounds very cool, I look forward to the video.

No pressure.:laughing:


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## Widdershins

Redwood said:


> We have a slightly different method for joining sections of pipe together...
> 
> We don't use a coupling, instead we use the butt fusion method where the pipes are placed in a machine that trims the ends square. A thermostatically controlled heater plate is then placed between the 2 sections and the HDPE is heated until it is molten, then the heater plate is removed and the 2 pipes are pressed together and allowed to cool.
> 
> You will see a weld bead on both the inside and outside of the pipe which you can read for an indication of weld quality.


I've seen the fusion method on 2" gas piping -- The guillotine they used to square up the pipe ends was way cool.


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## Mississippiplum

Redwood said:


> We have a slightly different method for joining sections of pipe together...
> 
> We don't use a coupling, instead we use the butt fusion method where the pipes are placed in a machine that trims the ends square. A thermostatically controlled heater plate is then placed between the 2 sections and the HDPE is heated until it is molten, then the heater plate is removed and the 2 pipes are pressed together and allowed to cool.
> 
> You will see a weld bead on both the inside and outside of the pipe which you can read for an indication of weld quality.


That's the method I've seen. I think the meathod biz uses is cool as can be. I've never seen it done that way.


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## Tommy plumber

I never knew why it was called 'pipe bursting', now I know. Thanks Plumbing Biz..... Looks like some mighty fine service you're providing for the folks in OK city.


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## plbgbiz

Redwood said:


> We have a slightly different method for joining sections of pipe together...


Same here Red. The couplings ended up not being best for our bursting method. A proper butt fusion joint is still stronger than the pipe itself and causes less resistance. Our butt fusion equipment is set up for 3" through 6". I can get jaws for 2" and smaller but haven't had the need.

EF couplings are the cat's meow (that's for you Mr. Shins:laughing for a solid repair on pressure lines like gas and potable water.


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## plbgbiz

Moved to the next site. Looking at 1600' with a mobile home tie in every 30' or so. It will probably start to look boring after a while but I'm going to post some pics anyway. But since I don't do any pretty copper work, this is all I've got to show off.

We can't all be arteests. :laughing:


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## johnlewismcleod

Very cool stuff, PB...thanks much


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## Cuda

Mr Biz I just looked through the catolog of the company you use for electrofusion and did not see tapping saddle wye's listed just tee's. I have seen pictures but have never actually found a sanitary wye saddle. I have found sanitary electrofusion wye fittings at $200 . Any info on price and where to buy them?


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## bulldozer

Cuda said:


> Mr Biz I just looked through the catolog of the company you use for electrofusion and did not see tapping saddle wye's listed just tee's. I have seen pictures but have never actually found a sanitary wye saddle. I have found sanitary electrofusion wye fittings at $200 . Any info on price and where to buy them?


Cuda. Check out lee supply in charleroi Pennsylvania. They can hook you up.


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## plbgbiz

Plasson.

You will still cost in the same range you are paying but the EF saddles are a lot faster to install than a whole fitting. Well worth it in my opinion.


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## Archie

That's amazing stuff right there Mr Biz. I've never seen it being done but understand it much better after watching that video. Thanks for sharing it.


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## saysflushable

why not have a directional bore company do the same thing. it should be easy for them. or am I missing something. I have never been up close while bore guys have been working, so maybe I'm off base.


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## Redwood

saysflushable said:


> why not have a directional bore company do the same thing. it should be easy for them. or am I missing something. I have never been up close while bore guys have been working, so maybe I'm off base.


You already have a bore with proper location and pitch...
Why not reuse it?


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## plbgbiz

saysflushable said:


> why not have a directional bore company do the same thing. it should be easy for them. or am I missing something. I have never been up close while bore guys have been working, so maybe I'm off base.


A few reasons. The first Red mentioned. The bore is already there.

2. Clear path past any utilities. Minimal risk of hitting anything because the sewer is already in place.

3. Directional bores can provide slope but if the slope is minimal, directional boring can be a bit inconsistent and risky. The existing slope of the sewer takes the guesswork out of it.

Last but certainly not least....I like buying and using cool tools. Pipe bursting hydraulics are REALLY cool tools!


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## bulldozer

Cuda. Ever thought of making your own saddle connections? We have used a curved heater plate and had a place fabricate wye slants out of regular pipe. Put the curved heater plate on your host pipe and the fitting and hold them with a shovel handle till they cool. Then just take your core drill and core it. We did 96 connections in a trailer park this way and air tested against them


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## saysflushable

plbgbiz said:


> A few reasons. The first Red mentioned. The bore is already there.
> 
> 2. Clear path past any utilities. Minimal risk of hitting anything because the sewer is already in place.
> 
> 3. Directional bores can provide slope but if the slope is minimal, directional boring can be a bit inconsistent and risky. The existing slope of the sewer takes the guesswork out of it.
> 
> Last but certainly not least....I like buying and using cool tools. Pipe bursting hydraulics are REALLY cool tools!


Sorry I wasn't clear, How about directional boring through the old pipe. just like you are doing only with the equipment they use.


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## bulldozer

It can be done but the problem is the drill head is going to want to pop out of the pipe and start carving its own path. If you hit an offset the drill could pop out of the pipe.


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## Redwood

With bursting when an offset is encountered it gets smoothed out....


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## plbgbiz

saysflushable said:


> Sorry I wasn't clear, How about directional boring through the old pipe. just like you are doing only with the equipment they use.


 It will work just fine...sometimes. Three issues come to mind. Power, direction, and size. 

HDD's cannot make a single hard 45deg offset. Depending on the layout, a small bursting machine can handle two, and sometimes more. Up, down, and side-to-side. You'll never pull through a rolling offset with an HDD but lateral bursters do it every day.

From a power standpoint, the names of the machines tell the story. One drills through things, the other one bursts through them. Unless you get into the really big machines, HDD equipment has all of the finesse but does not have the muscle. Keep in mind that HDD's are designed to creat a hole in soil, create a slick lubricated surface inside the hole, and then slide the smooth pipe through the slick hole. (Geez, that was creepy. :w00t: ). 

Pipe bursting machines use the pipe as a conduit to establish direction. They do not however need the conduit so the machine can pull. Pound for pound, it is hard to beat two 5" or 6" hydraulic cylinders pulling on a chain (or cable) with Mother Earth as a foothold. 

The size issue is critical as well. My most critical burst jobs hinged on being able to have no more than a 3' x 5' footprint...inside a building. Often times that is inside a residential basement. In OKC, the downstream end on a sewer riser is commonly anywhere from 6' to 15' and many are in the 20' range. That riser is typically in an easement between two backyards (in the yards) with very limited access and space to work. We sometimes have to hand dig to a 10' deep main because we cannot even get Satan's Dentures into the work site. 

HDD's are awesome and I long for the day when I have one, but they are just not suited for this need. Apples v. Oranges.


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## saysflushable

plbgbiz said:


> It will work just fine...sometimes. Three issues come to mind. Power, direction, and size.
> 
> HDD's cannot make a single hard 45deg offset. Depending on the layout, a small bursting machine can handle two, and sometimes more. Up, down, and side-to-side. You'll never pull through a rolling offset with an HDD but lateral bursters do it every day.
> 
> From a power standpoint, the names of the machines tell the story. One drills through things, the other one bursts through them. Unless you get into the really big machines, HDD equipment has all of the finesse but does not have the muscle. Keep in mind that HDD's are designed to creat a hole in soil, create a slick lubricated surface inside the hole, and then slide the smooth pipe through the slick hole. (Geez, that was creepy. :w00t: ).
> 
> Pipe bursting machines use the pipe as a conduit to establish direction. They do not however need the conduit so the machine can pull. Pound for pound, it is hard to beat two 5" or 6" hydraulic cylinders pulling on a chain (or cable) with Mother Earth as a foothold.
> 
> The size issue is critical as well. My most critical burst jobs hinged on being able to have no more than a 3' x 5' footprint...inside a building. Often times that is inside a residential basement. In OKC, the downstream end on a sewer riser is commonly anywhere from 6' to 15' and many are in the 20' range. That riser is typically in an easement between two backyards (in the yards) with very limited access and space to work. We sometimes have to hand dig to a 10' deep main because we cannot even get Satan's Dentures into the work site.
> 
> HDD's are awesome and I long for the day when I have one, but they are just not suited for this need. Apples v. Oranges.


 thanks that all makes perfect sense. except hand digging 10'. I would dig 5 feet and put a toilet over the top and tell them to call a builder if they want walls around it.
thanks again.

Maybe I'll be able to swing down to Ohio and watch this stuff in action


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## bulldozer

We got a real nice one coming up in a week or two.


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## plungerboy

bulldozer said:


> We got a real nice one coming up in a week or two.


Where at ? Local ?


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## bulldozer

Ottawa township. Up by toledo. Doing a pneumatic burst 8inch to 10 inch. Should be a fun one. All are welcome to stop in.


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## budders

Ill be in dayton august 8 to the 14th to change out a furnace and to hang with my best friend of 24 of my 30 years of life. 2 questions. One whats the name of the suply houses you guys use over there and 2 are you close enough to dayton for me to come play for a few hours?


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## bulldozer

budders said:


> Ill be in dayton august 8 to the 14th to change out a furnace and to hang with my best friend of 24 of my 30 years of life. 2 questions. One whats the name of the suply houses you guys use over there and 2 are you close enough to dayton for me to come play for a few hours?


The job is roughly 2 1/2 hrs. From dayton. Like I said your more then welcome to come up. Or stay in touch because we burst almost everyday and actually might have a few closer to dayton. Im not sure on the suppy houses that carry furnaces in that area. But its a pretty good sized town so there should be something


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## budders

bulldozer said:


> The job is roughly 2 1/2 hrs. From dayton. Like I said your more then welcome to come up. Or stay in touch because we burst almost everyday and actually might have a few closer to dayton. Im not sure on the suppy houses that carry furnaces in that area. But its a pretty good sized town so there should be something


 ill definitely be in touch. I haven't had the pleasure of seeing bursting in action.


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## Cuda

Another thing on Directional drilling machines on laying gravity sewers on grade is a bit tough especially on long runs. HDD guys make a really big hole compared to what pipe burster guys do. Example on a 8" pipe they may finish ream the hole to 12" or larger so that the machine has the power to pull the new line in, but do we really want an over size hole with extra space around a new gravity pipe? Not really, dips and weird settlement issues in the long run may occur. There are some newer systems for HDD drilling for doing on grade pipe but they are costly and more made for municipal for where the grade is .5 % But something I saw the other day was guys using an HDD machine combined with a hammerhead pneumatic mole to up size a line kinda like what bulldozer does except he uses a constant tension winch to keep the cable tight while the mole or impactor smashes the old pipe. These guys I saw pulled back a rod to keep tension on the impactor in the old host pipe but had to turn the air off when a the rod was unscrewed during pullback then retarted as the pull operation continued. I think it was a lot slower but no huge cost for the constant winch machine and they are big bucks. I may try it in the future not sure right now.


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## Cuda

bulldozer said:


> Cuda. Ever thought of making your own saddle connections? We have used a curved heater plate and had a place fabricate wye slants out of regular pipe. Put the curved heater plate on your host pipe and the fitting and hold them with a shovel handle till they cool. Then just take your core drill and core it. We did 96 connections in a trailer park this way and air tested against them


Good idea but man I am barley getting away with fusion as it is with inspectors that have no clue and thats with fittings that have numbers on them to prove their legit. Quit making me want to make things Bulldozer I have no time as it is and everytime you do that to me my mind goes crazy for days... I am still trying to make my own chain burster right now using HDD machine style hydraulics for the grippers lol


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