# Resi. Mech room



## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

Looking for critique./ constructive criticism please.

First I will state the obvious no-no's/ negatives.

These factors I cannot control:
-(usage of) one step glue sitting on top of water heater
-h20 material being cpvc
-h20 pressure regulator installed. No thermal expansion tank installed.

- I had w.h. on left side of beam originally so the brine tank would fit uniformly with the softener. Last minute, home owner does not want the w.h. there (even tho there's a stack there), so I move it to other side.
- three different pipe sizes on the wall with use of van clad (bell) hangers. Wall to center of pipe is different.
- no condensate drain attached to w.h. vent. w.h. vent is solid core, pitching towards the outside. 
-ceiling is literally filled with duct/c.a.r's and couldn't sneak lines in anywhere.
-does not require a ball valve on inlet side of w.s.., there is an integrated bypass on the unit which can be separated.

Looking for questions, suggestions, constructive criticism, no-no's other than stated, something i missed..... (takes deep breath).....ok.......here we go....😃


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## plumber11928 (Feb 18, 2015)

Nice and neat...Gas line to water heater, a little short.


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## chonkie (Jul 31, 2014)

One of the clamps on the ceiling looks like it is 1/32" off the others. Besides that hackery, looks good.


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## Pacificpipes (Oct 1, 2013)

That cleanout is 3" to high.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

chonkie said:


> One of the clamps on the ceiling looks like it is 1/32" off the others. Besides that hackery, looks good.


Looks more like a 1/64th to me...

He should be more careful...


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Questions

Do you have a secured fixed air gap on that regeneration drain for the softener?

Brine tank overflow?

Water heater relief drain material? rated for temp & pressure. Use copper around here.


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

GAN said:


> Water heater relief drain material? rated for temp & pressure. Use copper around here.


What pressure would a blowoff have to be? Its open to atmosphere


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Other than needing a air break at the drain connection. Looks good and neat. Question what is the manufactures requirement on distance away from the water heater that you can change to cpvc? Around here we are required to be 18 inches with copper before we can change over.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Are you allowed to be that close to w/h with softener and not have a check? Potential to back draw hot water during regeneration/backwash.

I thought a distance of 10' (piping). Looks good though.

Maybe not an issue with heat trap nipples.


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> Other than needing a air break at the drain connection. Looks good and neat. Question what is the manufactures requirement on distance away from the water heater that you can change to cpvc? Around here we are required to be 18 inches with copper before we can change over.


The drain the w.s. is dis charging to is a 2" local waste which is connected via air break to the floor drain riser. The 2" has a cap on top. A hole drilled through the cap. The w.s. drain connects via air break with a hanger on it. The hanger is suppose to isolate noise going into 2". 18" of CU for us if it is a chimney vent.


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

PLUMB TIME said:


> Are you allowed to be that close to w/h with softener and not have a check? Potential to back draw hot water during regeneration/backwash.
> 
> I thought a distance of 10' (piping). Looks good though.
> 
> ...


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

GAN said:


> Questions
> 
> Do you have a secured fixed air gap on that regeneration drain for the softener?
> 
> ...


It's a secure fixed air break. The B.T. overflow just is a 90 barbed fitting pointed to the floor. Is that different than how you expect it? Is it has hack? Should it be piped over to drain or otherwise? Cpvc relief drain


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

I belive if I chose to air gap it, then I wouldnt have to have a vacuum breaker tee on the drain


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Most of the softeners have check calves so I would probably put on an expansion tank and ran cooper to support it. 

Are you guys running csst to the heater?


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

Hard pipe. It's like that because I moved w.h. as stated in o.p. it was already piped to. Heating guys do that ****


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

moonapprentice said:


> PLUMB TIME said:
> 
> 
> > Are you allowed to be that close to w/h with softener and not have a check? Potential to back draw hot water during regeneration/backwash.
> ...


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## KoleckeINC (Oct 22, 2011)

Your gonna melt the plastic pipe coming out of that heater? Can't tell with the insulation on there.


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## Paul4813 (Nov 28, 2015)

The manufacture of the softener I install requires ten feet of piping from the water heater. I ate the cost of a rebuild once, recommend a check valve. Also, at least where I am, inspector would fail anything other than a physical air break


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

wyrickmech said:


> Question what is the manufactures requirement on distance away from the water heater that you can change to cpvc? Around here we are required to be 18 inches with copper before we can change over.





KoleckeINC said:


> Your gonna melt the plastic pipe coming out of that heater? Can't tell with the insulation on there.


A valid concern about the copper required at the water heater, but the concern is stemmed in spillover from the hood on an atmospheric vented gas water heater...

It wouldn't really apply on a powervent water heater, but whether the code differentiates is also another story...

Looking that up is an assignment for MoonApprentice, not me...


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

That is to my understanding as well. I have talked to other plumbers and some teachers about this. I am going to look into this On Paper. Thanks for the homework red. I thought I was done on schoolwork this week. (Throws Freetime out the window)


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

moonapprentice said:


> I am going to look into this On Paper.


Check the installation manual as well...

Sorry about you losing your free time...:laughing:


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

In the realm of out of your control, but...

You'll learn to hate the CPVC ball valves when it comes time for service later.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Clean work Mr. Moon. 

Only to nit pick a little, I would like to have seen the tank elevated enough to have a safety pan piped to the drain. 

I know nothing is at risk of damage as it sits today, but before too long there will be some sort of non-replaceable heirloom stored in that area, protected only by a cardboard box on the floor. 

And regardless of the code, I don't like plastic pipes running all the way to the heater. 

But again, nice work sir.


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

hroark2112 said:


> In the realm of out of your control, but...
> 
> You'll learn to hate the CPVC ball valves when it comes time for service later.


I have already learned that ratcheting tubing cutters don't cut cpvc that has been in for awhile (5+ years). It cracks it. First time I saw that happen I was like woah, this stuff is ****. The Mini hacksaw did solve that problem.


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

First time someone cranks on those ball valves & they break off in their hand....

Fun times!!


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> Other than needing a air break at the drain connection. Looks good and neat. Question what is the manufactures requirement on distance away from the water heater that you can change to cpvc? Around here we are required to be 18 inches with copper before we can change over.


Where can a guy find this 18" of copper on paper?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

2' of copper here


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## Nathan901 (Feb 11, 2012)

moonapprentice said:


> I have already learned that ratcheting tubing cutters don't cut cpvc that has been in for awhile (5+ years). It cracks it. First time I saw that happen I was like woah, this stuff is ****. The Mini hacksaw did solve that problem.


Oh yeah. Cpvc gets very brittle with age. I've been to more than a few jobs where cpvc was leaking where it was actually strapped too tight against something, with a copper strap. 
I couldn't even see the crack, but there was a slow drip coming from right under the strap. 

I've been careful enough not to snap any stub outs yet. Only a matter of time. 
Every time I turn an angle stop I cringe, and hold onto the valve body with pliers.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Catlin987987 said:


> What pressure would a blowoff have to be? Its open to atmosphere


Considering the valve is rated at 210 and pressure at 150 PSI, which is well below the pressure rating on copper, worse case scenario it does not go off at the rated temperature so the pressure rating takes over, then you rely on the material, fitting & pipe to hold a high pressure at or above boiling, pvc will fail. Threaded pvc (fittings) are rated at 110, the pipe is rated at a max of 140. _You could also say the same for plastic connections on top of the heater. 
The vessels maximum rating is beyond the capabilities of the piping. This is where a "non listed connection" can be implemented. Remember is it is not in the code, you still need to comply with a manufactures listed instructions and testing._

Thus the installation of a material not rated for the maximum temperature for one, nor the possible maximum rated developed pressure.

http://www.americanwaterheater.com/media/23796/6500260.pdf

http://www.harvel.com/piping-system...rial-pipe/schedule-40-80/temperature-derating

This may be from an older version of the UPC
"*UPC 608.5* Relief valves located inside a building shall be provided with a drain, not smaller than the relief valve outlet, of galvanized steel, hard drawn copper piping and fittings, CPVC, or listed relief valve drain tube with fittings which will not reduce the internal bore of the pipe or tubing (straight lengths as opposed to coils) and shall extend from the valve to the outside of the building with the end of the pipe not more than two (2) feet (610 mm) nor less than six (6) inches (152 mm) above the ground or the flood level of the area receiving the discharge and pointing downward. Such drains may terminate at other approved locations. No part of such drain pipe shall be trapped or subject to freezing. The terminal end of the drain pipe shall not be threaded."

Here is the section from the Illinois Plumbing Code (my area).

*Section 890.1230 Safety Devices*

d) Relief Discharge Outlet 3) Any piping used for discharge from the relief valve shall be of metallic material, shall comply with Appendix A. Table A (Approved Materials for Water Distribution Pipe) for potable water piping, and shall drain continuously downward to the outlet. ​


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

moonapprentice said:


> Where can a guy find this 18" of copper on paper?


 just an old standard we never use cpvc. Look in the manufactures requirements I think that's where it came from.


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

wyrickmech said:


> just an old standard we never use cpvc. Look in the manufactures requirements I think that's where it came from.


Not in b Dubya manual. Where should I look next?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

moonapprentice said:


> Not in b Dubya manual. Where should I look next?



I assume you have checked your Wisconsin Code and the applicable Fuel Gas Code?

An easy way out might be to ask an inspector where it is...
Might just be local requirements almost everywhere but that is hard to imagine...

I'll have to look later at my code to see where it is...
I never looked for it before, I just did it...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I know the answers


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I don't think it is spelled out in the IPC. It falls back on the old "according to manufacturer's specs" rule. 

18" of metallic pipe is required by PEX manufacturers. Oklahoma City inspectors require 18" as well. Can be connected directly to electric water heaters and tankless as long as their manufacturers have no prohibition against it.

From Viega's specifications:

*15.7 Water heaters*
*Viega PEX Ultra tubing should not be connected directly*
*to gas-fired water heaters. The high temperatures of*
*these appliances can damage the tubing.*

*When connecting a Viega PEX system to a gas-fired*
*water heater, install a minimum of 18" of metallic piping*
*between the water heater and tubing, keeping tubing*
*more than 6" away from the vent pipe. Where local*
*code allows, Viega PEX Ultra tubing may be connected*
*directly to electric water heaters and used for hot water*
*recirculation lines that do not come within 6" of the gas*
*heater vent.*

*Viega PEX Ultra may be used to connect to instantaneous/tankless*
*water heaters or other hot water producing devices. However, consult manufacturer’s recommendations for use with plastic tubing and*
*ensure temperature and pressure do not exceed the maximum ratings of the tubing.*


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> I don't think it is spelled out in the IPC. It falls back on the old "according to manufacturer's specs" rule.
> 
> 18" of metallic pipe is required by PEX manufacturers.


Thank You sir!
Saved me an evening of looking to find out for myself...
Out of curiosity...
I knew it was there somewhere...

I just did it because it made sense and never cared where until MoonApprentice started asking questions...


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

Alright!!... with those manu. Specs listed their, that is referring to gas firing water heaters in general? atmospheric vent or power vent as well?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

moonapprentice said:


> Alright!!... with those manu. Specs listed their, that is referring to gas firing water heaters in general? atmospheric vent or power vent as well?


What is your flue pipe made of on the powervent water heater?:whistling2:


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

I hate this


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

moonapprentice said:


> I hate this


This is the stuff that is going to turn you into a 100% Badazz Plumber...
You've got it in you because you ask the tough questions...
And look for the answers...

What are the other guys that are going to be taking the test doing?:whistling2:

You'll be a journeyman while they wait to retest...


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

Thanks Red. I've looked through IFGC, NFPA 54, my local code book. I can put some things together but seems a grey area. 
Manufacture specs of plastic materials, and different w.h's as well. 

Nothing I've found clearly states certain h20 materials specifically for power vent or specifically for atmospheric vent. 

I could be wrong, but from what I am gathering is, it's a mixture between the nfpa54 AND manufacture specs put together. Just because the h20 material manufacture spec says 18" of alloy, does not mean it is true for a power vent. (It's more or less a cya for them), but does apply to atmospheric vent per nfpa54. 

That is what I am coming to a conclusion so far, if that rationality is even correct. Hopefully that babbling is comprehensive. 

Am I on the right track, or dump that mentality off at the curb and start over?.....😨


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

You are close Young Grasshopper... <---might be too young to understand that one...

The vent on your Powervent Water Heater is obviously some kind of Approved White Plastic Pipe....:whistling2:

So how hot can it be?:whistling2:

Then the wording of the Viega Installation Guidelines...

"When connecting a Viega PEX system to a gas-fired
water heater, *install a minimum of 18" of metallic piping
between the water heater and tubing, keeping tubing
more than 6" away from the vent pipe.* Where local
code allows, Viega PEX Ultra tubing *may be connected
directly to electric water heaters and used for hot water
recirculation lines that do not come within 6" of the gas
heater vent."*

Obviously the temperature of that "Approved White Plastic Pipe" will never reach a temperature high enough to cause damage to the plastic water supplies so a bit of common sense prevails...

In addition the Powervent will not have spillover...

Lets take a look at something which may be closer to the pipe you are using... Charlotte Pipe Plastics Technical Manual...

On Page 42 we find this chart... See the notice below the chart?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Look over the rest of page 42 & 43 for other details that pertain to your installation...


Oh and the young grasshopper thing...


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

140 pvc, to 180 cpvc @ 100 psi. Since no spillover, this application should be correct.

This system is at around 70 p.s.i. so the cpvc in my install would be around 200 degrees rating. Common sense would say cpvc down to the heater would be correct. Except:

I could see why people were saying they would want 18" cu in. I'm thinking after a water heater has been in place over time, the efficiency lowers(due to water quality factors, scale, no maintenance) and works harder, making it burn at higher temperatures, which may result being over that 140 mark and contradicting the fact of cpvc going straight into the unit. And also why pvc is a "up in the air" material for venting, since the temp ratings can change, which would result in damage, melting, discoloration, etc.. am I getting warmer? Loved that video clip, watched all those as a kid, and noticed he kept at it with the stick. Lol.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

moonapprentice said:


> 140 pvc, to 180 cpvc @ 100 psi. Since no spillover, this application should be correct.
> 
> This system is at around 70 p.s.i. so the cpvc in my install would be around 200 degrees rating. Common sense would say cpvc down to the heater would be correct. Except:
> 
> I could see why people were saying they would want 18" cu in. I'm thinking after a water heater has been in place over time, the efficiency lowers(due to water quality factors, scale, no maintenance) and works harder, making it burn at higher temperatures, which may result being over that 140 mark and contradicting the fact of cpvc going straight into the unit. And also why pvc is a "up in the air" material for venting, since the temp ratings can change, which would result in damage, melting, discoloration, etc.. am I getting warmer? Loved that video clip, watched all those as a kid, and noticed he kept at it with the stick. Lol.


I'd say you pretty well have it...

What do you think PlumbDrum?
Would he convince an inspector wanting 18" of copper without it called out otherwise in his code?


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

If I remember right that was supposed to be little David carradine before he was the main man?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

moonapprentice said:


> If I remember right that was supposed to be little David carradine before he was the main man?


Yes it was...

Always learning...


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

OK... 1 last broom throw....I know it's getting late....I promise... since we based this off viega pex... how would one decide, using cpvc, whether you would need 18" of alloy or not. Viega pex says in the instructions. Cpvc, as far as I know does not. (Or maybe this kind of thing just comes with the territory surroundings)


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

moonapprentice said:


> OK... 1 last broom throw....I know it's getting late....I promise... since we based this off viega pex... how would one decide, using cpvc, whether you would need 18" of alloy or not. Viega pex says in the instructions. Cpvc, as far as I know does not.


What material are you using?


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

Flow guard gold


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

Maybe I have apprentice vision too and missed it somewhere


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

moonapprentice said:


> 140 pvc, to 180 cpvc @ 100 psi. Since no spillover, this application should be correct.
> 
> This system is at around 70 p.s.i. so the cpvc in my install would be around 200 degrees rating. Common sense would say cpvc down to the heater would be correct.


That is your case...


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

Got it.


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## moonapprentice (Aug 23, 2012)

No one knows why we have to put those 2' pieces of insulation on the inlet and outlet that come with the heater. 

One inspector makes us do that. (Probably being lenient to other alternatives(cu pipe). Now I know why. 

If someone asks me how I found that out, I'll say "Red told me" and then walk away.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Redwood said:


> I'd say you pretty well have it... What do you think PlumbDrum? Would he convince an inspector wanting 18" of copper without it called out otherwise in his code?


Moon, whatever is listed in your local/state code for a measurement will supersede manufacture, I believe flowguard will allow 6" of metallic piping before transitioning to cpvc, if you code says 18" that's what you use. It Ma it's 24" of copper before transitioning, what I get guys on is that 24" piece on their flue rise on single wall pipe possibly ceding within 6" of the cpvc. Now we have created the same problem. Looks like an offset off that heater to start off the tank.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Just to take a swipe at the horse on life support....

The specs say gas fired water heater. There is no sub-group mentioned. Although I agree the risk to plastic piping seems trivial on a power vent water heater, the fact remains that it is a gas fired water heater. 

Any AHJ could (and should) rightfully require 18" of metallic piping on ANY water heater fueled by gas. 

I did not expend a great deal of effort looking, but I never came across a manufacturer's recommendation on this topic for CPVC. We just put at least 18" of something on them other than plastic on all of them, and never give it a second thought afterward.


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