# Water Heater install



## Plumbergeek (Aug 16, 2010)

Okay, which one of yall installed this water heater in these people's attic? :whistling2:










Here is what I replaced it with.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I cannot tell a lie.

It was TxMP's boss. :laughing:


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Black pipe and galvanized 90 nice touch


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

I can't believe no one has blamed that Jnohs person yet....


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## AndersenPlumbing (Jan 23, 2010)

In Chicago, Pex is almost just as bad a crime as the black pipe!


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Hope u braced the expansion tank!


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> Black pipe and galvanized 90 nice touch


At least it looks like they tried to do it right...maybe 1/2 right:thumbup:


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

rjbphd said:


> Hope u braced the expansion tank!


 
its screwed into brass , look at the pic again


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

RedRubicon2004 said:


> In Chicago, Pex is almost just as bad a crime as the black pipe!


 
well,, chicago is a long way from Georgia

thank gawd


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## Plumbergeek (Aug 16, 2010)

GREENPLUM said:


> its screwed into brass , look at the pic again


Yes, it's all brass on the cold side. The T&P and pan drain were run over to the eave and turned down onto the soffitt but they didn't drill holes to run them outside. The HVAC pan drain and condensate drains are done that way too?
I put in the electric because there were so many code violations on the vent and gas that it was cheaper to go electric.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

GREENPLUM said:


> its screwed into brass , look at the pic again


 Yea I see it screwwd into brass but what's holding the body up??.. tank itself must be hanging down or body must be supported.


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Yea I see it screwwd into brass but what's holding the body up??.. tank itself must be hanging down or body must be supported.


Brass Is very soft, not enough support on that exp tank. Also I would think that 12" copper risers would have been better then pex directly to the hot side


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## Piper34 (Oct 10, 2011)

Tank should be vertical up or down not horizontal actually says so in directions if I said I never did that on boiler or HWH I would be lying


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Plumbergeek said:


> Yes, it's all brass on the cold side. The T&P and pan drain were run over to the eave and turned down onto the soffitt but they didn't drill holes to run them outside. The HVAC pan drain and condensate drains are done that way too?
> *I put in the electric because there were so many code violations on the vent and gas that it was cheaper to go electric.*


what kind of code violations.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Michaelcookplum said:


> Brass Is very soft, not enough support on that exp tank. Also I would think that 12" copper risers would have been better then pex directly to the hot side


 
if brass is so soft let me hit you in the head with some, then tell me how soft it is :laughing:.

electric water heaters can have pex directly connected, I do it all the time


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Piper34 said:


> Tank should be vertical up or down not horizontal actually says so in directions if I said I never did that on boiler or HWH I would be lying


 
you can post up the directions that say that, I can post up directions that say otherwise.

so whos right?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

After reading this, I will not install another expansion tank until I have an approved ISO from Optimus.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

From Watts installation instructions: http://media.wattswater.com/2915054.pdf

b. The expansion tank may be installed vertically (preferred method) or horizontally. Caution: The tank must be properly supported in horizontal applications.


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## PiedmontRadiant (Jul 27, 2012)

*Expansion tank bracket*

Easy install. Supports full weight of a waterlogged 30 or 60 hydronic tank or thermal. Otherwise you're asking for trouble in the future with the weight of a waterlogged tank. 

It's all I use now.

Thanks
Jeff


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Using the same brass T set up, just use the top of the T for the expansion tank and the side of the T for the water feed, problem solved.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

easttexasplumb said:


> Using the same brass T set up, just use the top of the T for the expansion tank and the side of the T for the water feed, problem solved.












Like this tank 

Sent from my iPhone 10.5


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> Like this tank
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 10.5


 I ratherd to have it hang down...


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## Adamche (Feb 10, 2012)

I don't understand why you use exp tanks on water heaters, can someone explain for me? We only use them on pumps here. I don't see the need for it on a hws. Unless it is to save water, rather than the P&TR valve relieving it to drain!


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Adamche said:


> I don't understand why you use exp tanks on water heaters, can someone explain for me? We only use them on pumps here. I don't see the need for it on a hws. Unless it is to save water, rather than the P&TR valve relieving it to drain!


It is to absorb the expansion of heated water in a closed system. For instance, some of our municipalities have check valves installed near or at the meter.


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## hellenicsnowman (Nov 15, 2012)

Adamche said:


> I don't understand why you use exp tanks on water heaters, can someone explain for me? We only use them on pumps here. I don't see the need for it on a hws. Unless it is to save water, rather than the P&TR valve relieving it to drain!


We use it for expansion in closed system like check valves by meter or on blds with a hot water recirculating lines, in school we learned the expansion rate of water from cold to hot so u can size it


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Adamche said:


> I don't understand why you use exp tanks on water heaters, can someone explain for me? We only use them on pumps here. I don't see the need for it on a hws. Unless it is to save water, rather than the P&TR valve relieving it to drain!


 The t&p relief valve is a 'one' time usage device.. not a operating device.. more and more plumbing systems getting "closed" with leakproof faucets and ballcocks as well with the checkvalve at water meter, hence, water expanison with temps increased.... think of this, how many hot water heating system do NOT have expanison tank? 
On other hand, on private well system, expanison tank not needed as well pressure tank ( if there's no check valve on coldwater supply) will aborb the extra pressure.. 
Only a few plumbing inspectors understand this.


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## Big cheez (Jan 11, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> The t&p relief valve is a 'one' time usage device.. not a operating device.. more and more plumbing systems getting "closed" with leakproof faucets and ballcocks as well with the checkvalve at water meter, hence, water expanison with temps increased.... think of this, how many hot water heating system do NOT have expanison tank?
> On other hand, on private well system, expanison tank not needed as well pressure tank ( if there's no check valve on coldwater supply) will aborb the extra pressure..
> Only a few plumbing inspectors understand this.


Most of the new water meters create a closed system like a prv. When ever water is heated it creates pressure. Pressure increased inside a tank will expand caused by thermal expansion. Thermal expansion is unsafe in a closed system it will cause meters, prv's etc. to bust... If you ever touched the cold inlet side of a water heater and found it to be hot or a hose Bibb to release hot water when you first open it.. That is caused by thermal expansion..if you have say 45 psi at the meter in a closed system and the water heater can create 150 psi before the t&p kicks off what do you think is happening with the other 105 psi? If the T&p fails this can create an explosion... The expansion tank is just an extra safety device.. I highly recommend those against the expansion tank to do some research...I fixed hundreds of leaks caused by thermal expansion and if your a service plumber I'm sure you have to....


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

I put in what's in the specs


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I put in what's in the specs


 Can't see if it is behind the expansion tank, but is there a vacuum relief valve installed? Also, most inspectors here would tell you to remove the valve on the hot side.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Vacuum breaker is behind the tank and I like a valve on the hot side. If it gets closed the t&p will Handel it


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> I put in what's in the specs


  





Clean, good-looking install.....:thumbsup:
Here though, the pan drain can't be PVC.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

What can it be??


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## Big cheez (Jan 11, 2012)




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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> What can it be??


 






Whatever is rated for hot potable water, for example: CPVC, galvanized, copper, etc.


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## Big cheez (Jan 11, 2012)

Tommy plumber said:


> Whatever is rated for hot potable water, for example: CPVC, galvanized, copper, etc.


Can you dump the t&p in the pan drain where your at?... In Texas we are aloud to run the pan in PVC...the T&P has to run separate..


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Vacuum breaker is behind the tank and I like a valve on the hot side. If it gets closed the t&p will Handel it


What if the t&p gets capped or will not open?


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Tommy plumber said:


> Whatever is rated for hot potable water, for example: CPVC, galvanized, copper, etc.




I dont really get this...how is this any different than running a faucet full hot no cold...So pvc is ok for drain but not for a water heater drain?

Luckily we can still use pvc here in most areas...


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> I dont really get this...how is this any different than running a faucet full hot no cold...So pvc is ok for drain but not for a water heater drain?
> 
> Luckily we can still use pvc here in most areas...


 






In theory, a W/H may discharge upto 170 F hot water into the pan via the T&P drain line. PVC isn't rated for that. Yes, when you prepare spaghetti and dump the boiling water down your kitchen sink drain into the PVC drain line, you're exceeding the temperature rating of the drain line, but our code permits PVC for DWV. Go figure.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Big cheez said:


> Can you dump the t&p in the pan drain where your at?... In Texas we are aloud to run the pan in PVC...the T&P has to run separate..


 






Yes. We can drain the T&P line into the W/H pan.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

SewerRatz said:


> What if the t&p gets capped or will not open?


Boom. Just the same if the hot water didn't have a valve it would just take a bit longer to go boom.


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## Big cheez (Jan 11, 2012)

Tommy plumber said:


> Yes. We can drain the T&P line into the W/H pan.


I think that's why it has to be in pipe rated for hot water. But either way it would be a good practice...


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## Adamche (Feb 10, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> The t&p relief valve is a 'one' time usage device.. not a operating device.. more and more plumbing systems getting "closed" with leakproof faucets and ballcocks as well with the checkvalve at water meter, hence, water expanison with temps increased.... think of this, how many hot water heating system do NOT have expanison tank?
> On other hand, on private well system, expanison tank not needed as well pressure tank ( if there's no check valve on coldwater supply) will aborb the extra pressure..
> Only a few plumbing inspectors understand this.


The P&TR valves on our systems can and do operate when and how often are required, so they will allow for the hot expansion, some states here also have cold water expansion valves- so you are only relieving cold, not hot, so it is more efficient!


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## rob the plumber (Oct 21, 2011)

I'm Metro Detroit, we only use expansion tanks on closed systems, I.e., wells. I have yet to see a meter that acts as a check valve here. I also would probably only install an expansion tank hanging vertically, unless it could be supported in case the diaphragm leaked and the tank filled up. Plus it just looks better. We also have to use piping on drain pans rated for hot water. I usually use 1" cpvc. This is the absolute only place I'd install cpvc. I think that a red sticker for using regular pvc is stupid. Is it going to melt? C'mon now.


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## No-hub (Sep 1, 2012)

SewerRatz said:


> What if the t&p gets capped or will not open?


Then that ball valve will not matter. Faucets dont relieve themselves they stay shut.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

rob the plumber said:


> I'm Metro Detroit, we only use expansion tanks on closed systems, I.e., wells. I have yet to see a meter that acts as a check valve here. I also would probably only install an expansion tank hanging vertically, unless it could be supported in case the diaphragm leaked and the tank filled up. Plus it just looks better. We also have to use piping on drain pans rated for hot water. I usually use 1" cpvc. This is the absolute only place I'd install cpvc. I think that a red sticker for using regular pvc is stupid. Is it going to melt? C'mon now.


 Why would u use a expanison tank on private well system?


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## rob the plumber (Oct 21, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Why would u use a expanison tank on private well system?


Because the heated water needs to expand somewhere.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

rob the plumber said:


> Because the heated water needs to expand somewhere.


you are mistaken , wells dont need a expansion tank , they already have a 
*Diaphragm Tank*


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## rob the plumber (Oct 21, 2011)

That's what I meant. Aren't they one in the same?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

rob the plumber said:


> That's what I meant. Aren't they one in the same?


 Blink?? A master plumber doesn't know the differance from well pressure tank and expanison tank???


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## rob the plumber (Oct 21, 2011)

That's right. I don't claim to know everything. There aren't many well systems in my area, so I haven't dealt with them much. 
Enlighten me.


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## mpot (Oct 2, 2012)

rob the plumber said:


> That's right. I don't claim to know everything. There aren't many well systems in my area, so I haven't dealt with them much.
> Enlighten me.


If the inlet valve to the water heater is closed in a municipal system or well system the hot side will experience expansion. The thermal expansion tank must be on the cold side between the tank and inlet shut off.


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## rob the plumber (Oct 21, 2011)

Thanks for that!


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

rob the plumber said:


> That's right. I don't claim to know everything. There aren't many well systems in my area, so I haven't dealt with them much.
> Enlighten me.


I'm a master plumber and the only thing I know about wells is to check for bees in the well house. Some people actually have city water.


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## rob the plumber (Oct 21, 2011)

Or bees under the propane pig lid!


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## AWWGH (May 2, 2011)

easttexasplumb said:


> I'm a master plumber and the only thing I know about wells is to check for bees in the well house. Some people actually have city water.


I'm a licensed well drilling contractor and the only thing i know about wells is that it's a deep subject!


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## AWWGH (May 2, 2011)

easttexasplumb said:


> I'm a master plumber and the only thing I know about wells is to check for bees in the well house. Some people actually have city water.


 And around here I am or worried about the black widows than the babies


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

No vacuum breaker ? :no:


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

mpot said:


> If the inlet valve to the water heater is closed in a municipal system or well system the hot side will experience expansion. The thermal expansion tank must be on the cold side between the tank and inlet shut off.


 Blinks???


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

mpot said:


> If the inlet valve to the water heater is closed in a municipal system or well system the hot side will experience expansion. The thermal expansion tank must be on the cold side between the tank and inlet shut off.


Yeah, those new dual check water meters required us to start using the exp tanks


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

JDGA80 said:


> Yeah, those new dual check water meters required us to start using the exp tanks


 Where u see a water meter on the well system??


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Where u see a water meter on the well system??


I read municipal water system. Lol. Touche though


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## Txmasterplumber (Oct 2, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> I cannot tell a lie.
> 
> It was TxMP's boss. :laughing:


 
Hey now, i've never been to Georgia..... as far as you know!


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

How's come nobody picked up the Pex attached directly to the water heater? got to be 18" of copper, brass or galvy (no plastic) before you hit the pex


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## JDGA80 (Dec 9, 2012)

nhmaster3015 said:


> How's come nobody picked up the Pex attached directly to the water heater? got to be 18" of copper, brass or galvy (no plastic) before you hit the pex


Only on gas. 18" from flue. It's stupid but code


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## mpot (Oct 2, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Blinks???


Are you batting your eyes at me ? Or is that a "WTH are you talking about? " I can't tell...


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Regarding the valve on the hot side. If it gets turned off, somebody will notice they don't have hot water. lol.

I've found hot outlet valves necessary on some system because of the bleed through of some mixing valves.

I talked to another contractor that said he installs Watts governor 80 ballcocks in lieu of other thermal expansion protection.


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## rob the plumber (Oct 21, 2011)

mpot said:


> Are you batting your eyes at me ? Or is that a "WTH are you talking about? " I can't tell...


I couldn't figure it out either. I thought that since I'm using the app, I might not be seeing an emoticon.


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## Txmasterplumber (Oct 2, 2010)

Well, as soon as I can figure out how to post pics again, i'll do this again


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

mpot said:


> Are you batting your eyes at me ? Or is that a "WTH are you talking about? " I can't tell...


I'm using my hands to talk.... blinks...


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## Txmasterplumber (Oct 2, 2010)

Customer called, Water heater wouldn't light. After diagnosis, bad thermostat, covered under warranty. She originally had a electric, and wanted a gas water heater. Called a local plumbing co, and this is what they installed. They tied the vent into the HVAC vent, and the hole was cut into it with what looks like a screwdriver.... and yes, it was a "licensed plumber", she showed me the invoice.


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## mpot (Oct 2, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> I'm using my hands to talk.... blinks...


Ah. Italian.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

mpot said:


> Ah. Italian.


I'm German...


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## mpot (Oct 2, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> I'm German...


Mmk


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

mpot said:


> Mmk


 Blink???


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## mpot (Oct 2, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Blink???


Exactly.


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