# Litte Bit Of Service



## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Main sewer line fix. Bad root intrusion due to a broken SDR 35 Wye.

The angles of the piping coming from the building and where I had to tie on were all out of square.

Some times you gotta do what you gotta do....

Edit- Little on the subject..


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Plumberman said:


> Main sewer line fix. Bad root intrusion due to a broken SDR 35 Wye.
> 
> The angles of the piping coming from the building and where I had to tie on were all out of square.
> 
> ...


What is this square you speak of?


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

What...you couldn't find a 95?? Or maybe a 45 and a 47.5?


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

As shallow as that is I would of dug a little further out and some 45º's and or other fittings to get it to line up proper also if I was working with plastic in the ground already I would of glued everything in place instead of using a Mission coupling. That offset with the mission coupling is a great place for the roots to grow back and waste to hang up on.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Main cable line, phone line, water line, and electrical line is the reason I didnt dig any further.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Plumberman said:


> Main cable line, phone line, water line, and electrical line is the reason I didnt dig any further.


I just know the inspectors out here would not pass that, so I would have no choice to do the extra digging. We have utilities near by all the time big difference is out sewers on average are 5' to 9' deep.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Concrete around them ferncos, that's service for you. This is not a perfect world, sometimes in the repair world you have play the cards that you were dealt.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

easttexasplumb said:


> Concrete around them ferncos, that's service for you. This is not a perfect world, sometimes in the repair world you have play the cards that you were dealt.


We are the contractors that gets hired to fix the problem. Its the property owner that has to play the cards that are dealt, not us. We just need to do the job proper. Here concrete around the pipe and fittings is against code. Also the Mission couplings need to be the No- Shear type. But as I mentioned plastic already in the trench I would just used the proper fittings instead of a Mission coupling.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Sure let's go ahead and throw in a couple of 45s, maybe a wye or two and then fight all of it to make it up... 

This was a freebie for a foreman of ours mother in law.

Regardless of how it flies in another state it's legal here. This install sure trumps that SDR 35 that was installed in a bind and finally broke the line.

BTW right outside of that picture there is a sidewalk that has double 45s installed underneath it to straighten the line back up before it takes off down the side of the town house. I sent the camera down the line before I put it back together so I did a little homework and like I said sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do....


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Sometimes you just can't win!


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Plumberman said:


> Sure let's go ahead and throw in a couple of 45s, maybe a wye or two and then fight all of it to make it up...
> 
> This was a freebie for a foreman of ours mother in laws.
> 
> ...


 Looks good to me -- Schedule 40, a long sweep 90 and Fernco's approved for both the transition and direct burial.

Can't get much better than that.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

^^^^

Praise from Caesar even...

You must be doing SOMETHING right, Chad!

:laughing: :jester:


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

I thought that, but you never know. He is Mr. Shins for a reason

Lol


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Here you have to use a mission no hub, with 4 bands,,,, other then that it would have passed just fine


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Here you have to use a mission no hub, with 4 bands,,,, other then that it would have passed just fine


 A No-Hub with 4 bands on SDR-35?

No offense, but given the OD of SDR-35 and the thinness of the pipe wall, that sounds like a far sloppier connection than the Fernco that was used.


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

you glue a sch 40 X sdr transion fitting then install the clamps tex was talkin about holds up fine or you could file out the stop on a regular coupling and use as a slip either way thats how i do it passes expections here but i do see both sewers and plumber point :thumbup:


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> We are the contractors that gets hired to fix the problem. Its the property owner that has to play the cards that are dealt, not us. We just need to do the job proper. Here concrete around the pipe and fittings is against code. Also the Mission couplings need to be the No- Shear type. But as I mentioned plastic already in the trench I would just used the proper fittings instead of a Mission coupling.


 
Judging by slight bind them fernco couplings are in, and the limited room. I think you would have one heck of a pile of screwed up fittings, and empty cans of glue, trying to glue it all together. It may be the property owners problem but they call us to fix it. Sometimes we have to make repairs that work good but, could be better. 

If a customer has roots in their sewer line it needs to be replaced right, but you clean them out anyway. Why not tell the customer the proper thing to do is to replace the line? Thats no different than hundreds of other situations.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

revenge said:


> you glue a sch 40 X sdr transion fitting then install the clamps tex was talkin about holds up fine or you could file out the stop on a regular coupling and use as a slip either way thats how i do it passes expections here but i do see both sewers and plumber point :thumbup:


 I could see using an SDR X sch 40 glue coupling and then the shielded coupling as a slider to make the transition, especially in such tight quarters, but transitioning directly with a shielded coupling doesn't seem like a very good idea to me -- Unless I'm missing something here.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

They make fitting adapters that convert from SDR diameter to SCH 40 diameter.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

SewerRatz said:


> They make fitting adapters that convert from SDR diameter to SCH 40 diameter.


 I'm aware of that -- I use them all the time to connect the building drain to the side sewer.

I don't think they would have been very useful in this particular repair, though.


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

thats how i do it but even if you use a fernco over time the pipe will shift and move givin it room to belly or for roots to go in and you cant just put a sch 40 no hub or fernco on sdr cause it leaves a dimple giving roots acces right


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

easttexasplumb said:


> Judging by slight bind them fernco couplings are in, and the limited room. I think you would have one heck of a pile of screwed up fittings, and empty cans of glue, trying to glue it all together. It may be the property owners problem but they call us to fix it. Sometimes we have to make repairs that work good but, could be better.
> 
> If a customer has roots in their sewer line it needs to be replaced right, but you clean them out anyway. Why not tell the customer the proper thing to do is to replace the line? Thats no different than hundreds of other situations.


I only tell customers that have roots in every joint their line needs replacing or relining. Thing is most cases there is one maybe two bad joints letting the roots into their sewer, and I offer them to dig up that bad spot and make a proper repair. I also just got into using the Pipe Patch system which works really well. I would have to say 99% of main line blockages by us is at the 4" x 6" transition. Thats where I dig, make a proper repair and bring them up a clean out tee.

Tell me this when you need to do a rolling offset in a ceiling to a wall, do you have a pile of fittings sitting around. I can tell you I do get the right fittings needed to make the connection square. I do not want to do a disservice to my customers by not making a proper joint, that I know will cause issues down the road.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Widdershins said:


> A No-Hub with 4 bands on SDR-35?
> 
> No offense, but given the OD of SDR-35 and the thinness of the pipe wall, that sounds like a far sloppier connection than the Fernco that was used.


No offense taken. I was just stating my code. Looks to me what y'all call a fernco we call a cantex ... And some years back they changed the code to state all connections under ground must be a mission. There reason was that the metal wrap or shield on the mission won't allow the pipe to shift as easily......And I agree when it was said if you glue on to SDR-35 you will have gaps, at least I've never seen any that wasn't egged and I think it's all junk that should just be replaced entirely. But in service you repair what they can afford or want to pay for. The repair looked good to me but if I were to use a mission on SDR-35 I'd put some good silicone on the pipe. Just the way I've seen it done before but it did seal and helped to fill in gaps with out tightening the clamps to much


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> I only tell customers that have roots in every joint their line needs replacing or relining. Thing is most cases there is one maybe two bad joints letting the roots into their sewer, and I offer them to dig up that bad spot and make a proper repair. I also just got into using the Pipe Patch system which works really well. I would have to say 99% of main line blockages by us is at the 4" x 6" transition. Thats where I dig, make a proper repair and bring them up a clean out tee.
> 
> Tell me this when you need to do a rolling offset in a ceiling to a wall, do you have a pile of fittings sitting around. I can tell you I do get the right fittings needed to make the connection square. I do not want to do a disservice to my customers by not making a proper joint, that I know will cause issues down the road.


The repair in the pic can not be completely glued at both ends and still assembled with proper fitting make up. I will just let you stick with that story that you do every job perfectly and have never done a job that could have been done better. 

I am not talking about new piping or pipe in a ceiling, I was talking about the pic, you are comparing apples to oranges.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

easttexasplumb said:


> The repair in the pic can not be completely glued at both ends and still assembled with proper fitting make up. I will just let you stick with that story that you do every job perfectly and have never done a job that could have been done better.
> 
> I am not talking about new piping or pipe in a ceiling, I was talking about the pic, you are comparing apples to oranges.


 
Piping in the picture, there is two ways to glue both ends. First is to dig the hole longer to give you the room needed, or second which will work with the hole the way it is , is using a slip glue repair coupling. I do repairs in clay sewer lines using clay pipe with out any type of repair couplings, its called removing enough sections of the clay to be able to get your repair (usually a clean out tee) in along with new pipe. The minimum is 6 sections have to come out. 

Now I see why Chicago does not allow plumbers to do sewer work. To do sewer work in the city of Chicago you have to have a Sewer and Drain Layers License, which is also needed to power rod main sewers.

As I said as what is pictured would be failed around here by the inspectors. I guess we are more strict about having a good square joint since our sewers or 5'+ deep.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

That angle looks about perfect for a St 22. Not saying I've never done something similar, but I would try the ST 22...


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

Not to nitpick, but they do make sheilded 4 band Ferncos, I'll try to get a pic of one on Monday.


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

How many here would pull a permit on this job?

I've never pulled a permit on a repair like that. A new installation, sewer replacement, sure. But changing out one fitting & adding a cleanout?? Never.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> Piping in the picture, there is two ways to glue both ends. First is to dig the hole longer to give you the room needed, or second which will work with the hole the way it is , is using a slip glue repair coupling. I do repairs in clay sewer lines using clay pipe with out any type of repair couplings, its called removing enough sections of the clay to be able to get your repair (usually a clean out tee) in along with new pipe. The minimum is 6 sections have to come out.
> 
> Now I see why Chicago does not allow plumbers to do sewer work. To do sewer work in the city of Chicago you have to have a Sewer and Drain Layers License, which is also needed to power rod main sewers.
> 
> As I said as what is pictured would be failed around here by the inspectors. I guess we are more strict about having a good square joint since our sewers or 5'+ deep.


A slip glue repair coupling would have never worked.

It would have pulled loose once you glued up the other fittings, unless you glued up a pile of fittings, which is absurd...


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

SR raised some interesting points, as did a number of other contributors -- There were easily over a dozen different ways you could have dealt with this.

The key for me was the red paint.

It's obvious from the pictures that you took a great deal of time to excavate the blockage -- Which means you were mindful of the other Services buried nearby.

That's a plus in my book.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Widdershins said:


> SR raised some interesting points, as did a number of other contributors -- There were easily over a dozen different ways you could have dealt with this.
> 
> The key for me was the red paint.
> 
> ...


The utilities hung me, that electrical service was right above the main going out... Bout two foot back before the side walk.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

hroark2112 said:


> How many here would pull a permit on this job?
> 
> I've never pulled a permit on a repair like that. A new installation, sewer replacement, sure. But changing out one fitting & adding a cleanout?? Never.


Have to around here, huge fines if you get caught digging with out a permit. We always get a permit for any work that requires one. In Chicago we have to call in a permit for rodding a main sewer. And we do call it in for every main line rodding we do in Chicago. 

To use its not worth the headaches and fines to not pull the permits. Also it is not worth it doing the a job with some sort of short cut to save a buck cause it will end up costing you more in the long run when the inspector wants you to rip it all out and put it in new and right.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

SewerRatz said:


> To use its not worth the headaches and fines to not pull the permits. Also it is not worth it doing the a job with some sort of short cut to save a buck cause it will end up costing you more in the long run when the inspector wants you to rip it all out and put it in new and right.


 Lemme know if I have this right.

Your Inspectors, essentially Civil Servants, have the authority to compel a Homeowner to spend ten's of thousands of dollars to upgrade their side sewer?

Not buying it. Not by any stretch of the imagination.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Widdershins said:


> Lemme know if I have this right.
> 
> Your Inspectors, essentially Civil Servants, have the authority to compel a Homeowner to spend ten's of thousands of dollars to upgrade their side sewer?
> 
> Not buying it. Not by any stretch of the imagination.


 WTF are you talking about? 

We are required to get permits is what I said. And what I mean about doing the job right is using the right fittings and making sure the pipe is installed square with out any gaps or using a mission coupling to make an offset. 

If I plumbed in a clean out like the one pictured the inspector has all the right in the world to tell me to rip it all out and put it back together with new pipe and fittings.


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

Wow. A permit to clean out a clogged line?? How do you get any work done up there?

Here we don't pull permits for every little thing. They changed the law so we don't even have to pull a permit for a water heater change-out so long as it is a like for like replacement. It's crazy, but that's the way it is. If I pulled a permit for that they would have laughed at me. No permit for repairs or sewer cleaning. 

I wish we had to pull permits for water heater change-outs, because every handy hack talks the HO into letting them change it without a license, which is against the law here.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

hroark2112 said:


> Wow. A permit to clean out a clogged line?? How do you get any work done up there?
> 
> Here we don't pull permits for every little thing. They changed the law so we don't even have to pull a permit for a water heater change-out so long as it is a like for like replacement. It's crazy, but that's the way it is. If I pulled a permit for that they would have laughed at me. No permit for repairs or sewer cleaning.
> 
> I wish we had to pull permits for water heater change-outs, because every handy hack talks the HO into letting them change it without a license, which is against the law here.


To get the permit for sewer cleaning, you just call The permit office, give them your Sewer and Drain Layers License number and the address. They issue the permit and tell you exactly where the stub is, and any history of the property had in the past with the sewer. Pretty easy. 

Also have to get a permit to test Backflow prevention devices. The permit is free , all we have to do is submit a letter head with the property name, the make of the device, model # and Ser # and what it is online to. Then they fax over the permit. Then you can test the device, fill out the City's paper work and send it in.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

SewerRatz said:


> WTF are you talking about?


 Did I stutter?

It might be helpful if you defined "rip it all out and put it in new and right".

See, to folks like me, "rip it all out" means to "rip it all out".

What exactly does "rip it all out" mean to folks like you?


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Widdershins said:


> Did I stutter?
> 
> It might be helpful if you defined "rip it all out and put it in new and right".
> 
> ...


 

Would help if you keep the idea of what the hell we are talking about. Let me make it simple for you since you seem to have a hard time understanding.
First I was replying to *hroark2112* about pulling a permit for the "*POSTED JOB"*
Second we are still talking about the "*POSTED JOB"* with a permit and ding the job right.
*Third if the inspector sees something wrong with what he is inspecting he will tell me to rip it all out. WHICH MEANS RIP OUT ALL WHAT I DID WHICH HE IS INSPECTING!*
Now tell me this WHY ON GODS EARTH you would think the inspector would have me do anything else with pipe that has not been unearthed? The Inspectors be it a Plumbing Inspector or a Sewer Inspector has all the right in the world to tell me to rip it what I did wrong and put in new pipe and fittings to make it right. I highly doubt anyone else jumped to the assumption that you did.


If you need I can draw you a picture if that will help you.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Did I Stutter?:laughing:

how the heck would anyone know. dem fightin words


fwiw , i didnt read most of this thread


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

I am all for doing it right everytime. If the customer really can't afford to replace the line or pay the extra labor for added digging. I would do exactly what was done in the pic. I would rather have a couple of ferncos in a slight bind, then seen what the handy hack is going to do. The homeowner will be forced to seek out handy hacks if plumbers are not affordable. Just imagine if the repair was done with rubber hose and worm gear clamps. When you stop caring about the people you serve, it's time to find a new career. I am not saying the all mighty dollar is not important, just saying not everyone can afford to take the high road. A code violation is a violation no matter what, we have all done it. Have you ever put tubular trap on backwards because the arm was to high? If you did then you should have fixed it right or walked away. That's the way service work is, if you say I'm a hack, I'm a master hack, and got my masters in Hackery at an age before some people got out from under daddy's wing.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

That's in Chicago, my install passes here

Even if we had to pull a permit, it still passes

Granted it wasn't the greatest install I have ever performed but I went with what I had to.

I said that there was an electrical line right next to the sewer line, actually running over the top of it, the locator pegged it just above the sewer line.

Sure I could have dug it back, once I ran into that electrical line what then? Guess I could just get that moved up and out the way so I can square up my pipe... 

Not happening.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

The Friday night fights. Are you ready to ruuuumble?....:boxing:
I think that a wee bit of alcohol might be involved here...:laughing:......:drink:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

SewerRatz said:


> Would help if you keep the idea of what the hell we are talking about. Let me make it simple for you since you seem to have a hard time understanding.


 I comprehend just fine.



> * WHICH MEANS RIP OUT ALL WHAT I DID WHICH HE IS INSPECTING!*


 That clears it up considerably.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> The Friday night fights. Are you ready to ruuuumble?....:boxing:
> I think that a wee bit of alcohol might be involved here...:laughing:......:drink:


 I'm stone cold sober and I'm not looking for a fight.

I was just completely bamboozled by what he said.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> I'm stone cold sober and I'm not looking for a fight.
> 
> I was just completely bamboozled by what he said.


 




That's cool. Just seems in the past Friday nights seem to be popular for scuffles and skirmishes to break out here. I'm not trying to goad you guys on or anything.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Widdershins said:


> I'm stone cold sober and I'm not looking for a fight.
> 
> I was just completely bamboozled by what he said.


Well you need to learn to take things in context. Which in this case is what the question was asked and what I am replying to and what we are talking about in this thread. Guess you are to simple minded to understand keeping things in context.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Heres some square piping I installed 


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Looks great plumberman, I am sure someone here, who has never posted any pics of their own work, can find fault in it though.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Nice and even layout, I like it. Did you also do the painting, or just the installation? I think you might have gotten some yellow on the concrete. :laughing:









Paul


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

easttexasplumb said:


> Looks great plumberman, I am sure someone here, who has never posted any pics of their own work, can find fault in it though.


Man there will always be haters, I'm cool with it. Nothing to prove...


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

SewerRatz said:


> Well you need to learn to take things in context. Which in this case is what the question was asked and what I am replying to and what we are talking about in this thread. Guess you are to simple minded to understand keeping things in context.


There is nothing wrong with my ability to comprehend -- What you said is right there in black and white.

To linear folks like me -- "Rip it all out" means "rip it all out".

And I seriously doubt I'm the only one who read it that way.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

rocksteady said:


> Nice and even layout, I like it. Did you also do the painting, or just the installation? I think you might have gotten some yellow on the concrete. :laughing:
> 
> Paul


Install and unfortunately the painting as well.

I hate painting 

Lol


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## c-note (Aug 12, 2011)

that cleanout will help


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

I clearly understood what SewerRatz was talking about. Just saying!!


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