# Water heater rant.



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

I posted this at the Ridgid forum, and I thought it would be good here too:



Yet another reason I am slowly transitioning to mostly drain-cleaning. Not only are water heaters being made worse and worse every year, but the cost keeps going up and up. Here in NC, it is supposed to be illegal for anyone to install a water heater without pulling a permit and having a plumbing license. Yet, every day unlicensed handymen install water heaters without a permit.:cursing:
Now that water heaters are so expensive, and my unlicensed competition is so cheap, its gotten to the point that I rarely ever get to replace one. Most people call for a price, then they keep calling until they get the cheapest guy in town who has no license, no insurance, and will not bother with a permit.
I used to get upset about it, but now I have come to accept it. *It wont change, the almighty dollar drives the market and people will continue hiring unlicensed, uninsured installers as long as they are cheaper than a legitimate plumber.*
I just decided to move one. I sell a water heater maybe once a month for customers who are willing to pay a little more for quality, permitted, inspected, insured work. Other than that, I get lots of "I'll just get it at lowe's" (_and have my handyman install it_).
So now I have some of the best drain-cleaning/inspection equipment in the county and hopefully within a few years I'll have so much drain business that I won't even bother with the ridiculous politics of water heaters installs any more.


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

We don't have that problem here, but yes all water heater installs require a permit.


----------



## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

Have you ever thought of doing work for Lowes? Our Lowes informs their customers of code requirements (water heater stand, exp. tank etc.). From what I understand you decide how much you want to do for them. It may be a way to gain valuable customers. 

We love doing water heaters because that is the most profitable for us. However, we don't do them for Lowes.


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Lowe's pay absolutely garbage pay. No way I will work my way into bankruptcy working for them. They get the lowest bottom-feeders around to do their installs for peanuts.


----------



## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

I think our Lowes pays $240.00 for 40 gallons or less, simple swap on electric. Extra money for expansion tank, shut-offs etc.


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Plumbcrazy said:


> I think our Lowes pays $240.00 for 40 gallons or less, simple swap on electric. Extra money for expansion tank, shut-offs etc.


Is that labor only?


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Last I heard, they were getting $300 for an install around here. Of that money Lowe's takes HALF! So the plumbing contractor gets $150. He has to pick it up at Lowe's and bring it to the customer's house and install it to code for only $150!!! I can't do that.


----------



## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

Plumbing labor only. It doesn't sound like much, but when you factor in you didn't spend anything to get the customer (let's use $50.00), $290.00 for 2- 2.5 hours work isn't bad for the small guy starting out. A local contractor with 8 trucks started out that way - I thought it might be a good way for Carl to get his name out there.


----------



## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

service guy said:


> Last I heard, they were getting $300 for an install around here. Of that money Lowe's takes HALF! So the plumbing contractor gets $150. He has to pick it up at Lowe's and bring it to the customer's house and install it to code for only $150!!! I can't do that.


I know a guy who works at Lowes here, I will ask if they keep 50%. 

As a side note - our Lowes laid off all their full time employees and only kept part timers due to the slow economy.


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Money isn't the only reason I won't work for the DIY stores. *Working for the bigbox stores I consider "sleeping with the enemy."*:no:


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Thats about the average time to do a heater, we will add a extra hour to dispose of the heater. We basically have a set charge, and if we get it done in good time, we make money on them.


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

service guy said:


> Last I heard, they were getting $300 for an install around here. *Of that money Lowe's takes HALF! *So the plumbing contractor gets $150. He has to pick it up at Lowe's and bring it to the customer's house and install it to code for only $150!!! I can't do that.


BTW, I got this info. firsthand from someone who was doing installs for them.


----------



## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

Doing a heater for $150.00 is a joke!

Ron, we figure 3 hours for all electric water heaters and 9/10 times our guys get them done in 1.5-2hrs.


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Plumbcrazy said:


> Doing a heater for $150.00 is a joke!


Thank you.

Yes, that is my point in posting this thread basically. Not just the bigbox stores, but also all the unlicensed guys out there that are doing them that cheap.:furious:


----------



## Wethead (Oct 13, 2008)

service guy said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Yes, that is my point in posting this thread basically. Not just the bigbox stores, but also all the unlicensed guys out there that are doing them that cheap.:furious:



I also agree $150 is wayyyyyyyyyy to cheap for anyone, Hell man, what happened to the good ole days of America when the rule of thumb was labor was 3x the price of parts.......no wonder everyone is broke 

I have mixed feelins about big boxed stores, I mean crap, if wal-mart wasn't here I would starve


----------



## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

I'm with you all . If I get a water heater once every couple weeks ,,thats great . If not ,, oh well.
I refuse to install that CRAP from the big box stores . If a customer wants /needs a water heater from me ,,, it's Bradford White .

Cal


----------



## grandpa (Jul 13, 2008)

Around here, the company which installs HD water heaters maintains his own inventory in a couple of warehouses. He does not have to send a truck to the store for every job. That would be ridiculous, because I am guessing that in San Diego, HD does a few dozen a day. About 2 or 3 a day per store.??


----------



## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

Just a question - The hot water tanks you install into peoples homes - these people have house insurance right? 

What are the requirements in their house to maintain their house insurance? Would their house insurance companies be a little upset if they found out some handyman was installing a new hot water tank and not a licensed, insured, Plumbing Contractor?


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Plumbcrazy said:


> Have you ever thought of doing work for Lowes? Our Lowes informs their customers of code requirements (water heater stand, exp. tank etc.). From what I understand you decide how much you want to do for them. It may be a way to gain valuable customers.
> 
> We love doing water heaters because that is the most profitable for us. However, we don't do them for Lowes.


Install Whirlpool Water Heaters for Lowes?
Are you kidding?
I'd rather go on a date with my ex-mother-in-law!


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

GE PowerVents are getting to be very troublesome even though they have Robertshaw control valves on them.


I worked on a Lowe's gas WH two sunday's ago...got paid and never fixed the problem. Apparently the guy couldn't wait for me and had someone else replace the heater. Can't move already scheduled calls. 


I'm starting to get some good background knowledge on Intelli-vent gas controls though.


----------



## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Install Whirlpool Water Heaters for Lowes?
> Are you kidding?
> I'd rather go on a date with my ex-mother-in-law!


I agree with you. However, if a HO asks us to install the water heater they just bought and hauled home from Lowes, we will install it. I don't like a lot of junk HO's ask us to install.


----------



## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

I am pretty sure HD and Lowes here are around $300 and a 50% split with the contractors here locally. I am also aware they will Kill your average days of collections because they have a reputation of SLOW SLOW pay.

As for the numbers, Unlicensed hacks and big box are huge contributors hurting our industry. Along with Craigs List and countless other sources of marketing for unlicensed workers. I almost hate to use the term unlicensed contractor anymore. It is a term that negates itself. One is only a contractor when they get the license.

Unfortunately, our industry is becoming more an more like the electrical industry everyday. Electricians almost never provide fixtures anymore here. Lighting galleries have popped up all over the place. We are going to add a small provision to our contracts for H/O supplied fixtures. We will put them in but we will also get paid to fix them or replace them in the event something should go wrong. I always have had a fear of a flood from a defective H/O supplied product then who is responsible?

As for water heaters, The last count I heard was that there are 2 actual water heater mfg in this country. In many cases the only thing that differentiates a water heater is the jacket with the label on it. A.O. smith, State, GE are all the same exact heater with a different jacket on them. Rheem, ruud both the same. I was told this 9 years ago by a heater rep.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

This won’t make you any more money, but its fun and will make plumbing profitable again in the long run.

When they call for a price on a water heater, use this #

Caller: I need a price on a water heater.

Me: I would be happy to give you a quote. In order for me to access the information on the database I need to fill out this form.

"Do you know what type of heater is currently installed?

What size is it?

Where is it located?

What brand is it?

What is your name, address and telephone #?

Will the installation need to be done after hours?

What type of heater would you like installed?"

After they give me the info I give them a wide price range and tell them that the only way for me to give an exact quote is to actually see the job. They usually hang up at that point. If not, I ask if they can send a picture of the heater via e-mail. If they do, I provide them with a quote. If I don't hear back from them, I make a follow up call a few days later. If they tell me that they got someone else, I call code enforcement and forward all of them information that was collected on the initial call. Joe handy man gets charged with a felony for contracting without a license or lowball plumbing company gets fined for not pulling a permit.

No one is going to clean up your industry for you. You have to do it. The state and county are only interested in collecting easy money. You must take the initiative and clean up the slime in your service area. I hope you take what I've said to heart and implement it for our industry’s sake.:thumbsup:




service guy said:


> I posted this at the Ridgid forum, and I thought it would be good here too:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## kellybhutchings (Jul 29, 2008)

The plumber that was installing for lowes here said it was not worth it. He said that he got paid 180 for a basic install which included picking the water heater up and hauling the old one off. He has about four trucks running and at first he did not install one his self and said that lowes would always call about complaints. People were saying they tore something up like flooring or scratched a wall, so he installed one hisself and the samething happened. People were just trying to get something for free by complaining.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

kellybhutchings said:


> The plumber that was installing for lowes here said it was not worth it. He said that he got paid 180 for a basic install which included picking the water heater up and hauling the old one off. He has about four trucks running and at first he did not install one his self and said that lowes would always call about complaints. People were saying they tore something up like flooring or scratched a wall, so he installed one hisself and the samething happened. People were just trying to get something for free by complaining.


Exactly!
Do you want good customers?
or,
Do you want customers that are looking for a Kraft Macaroni & Cheese price putting Caviar on their table...
Even if you deliver the Caviar...
They are going to call & complain wanting their $0.99 back.

These are the exact customers that I don't want!
My competition deserves them!:thumbup:


----------



## Marlin (Aug 14, 2008)

******* said:


> I have mixed feelins about big boxed stores, I mean crap, if wal-mart wasn't here I would starve


I hate that place. They sell mostly Chinese junk and are part of the reason our country is being raped right now.


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Exactly!
> Do you want good customers?
> or,
> Do you want customers that are looking for a Kraft Macaroni & Cheese price putting Caviar on their table...
> ...


DITTO.:thumbsup:


----------



## para1 (Jun 17, 2008)

Protech said:


> This won’t make you any more money, but its fun and will make plumbing profitable again in the long run.
> 
> When they call for a price on a water heater, use this #
> 
> ...


What type of results do you get with code inforcement. I always get "we have to catch them in the act".


----------



## leaks (Oct 21, 2008)

I dont understand why you bother pulling a permit for a water heater? If you know what your doing you don't need an inspector to come in and tell you that your water shut off is in the right place and the gas cock is before the union like it was on the old one. We never pull permits and in 15 years there hasn't been one problem even with out sticker and date of installation on it...


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

leaks said:


> I dont understand why you bother pulling a permit for a water heater? If you know what your doing you don't need an inspector to come in and tell you that your water shut off is in the right place and the gas cock is before the union like it was on the old one. We never pull permits and in 15 years there hasn't been one problem even with out sticker and date of installation on it...


Because its the law in this state. I don't make the laws.


----------



## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

leaks said:


> I dont understand why you bother pulling a permit for a water heater? If you know what your doing you don't need an inspector to come in and tell you that your water shut off is in the right place and the gas cock is before the union like it was on the old one. We never pull permits and in 15 years there hasn't been one problem even with out sticker and date of installation on it...


Some people prefer to dowork that is legal and upfront as opposed to breaking the law at the risk of heavy fines and a possible loss of their license.


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

It is code here to permit every tank we install, fines can me imposed if we don't


----------



## brain freeze (Oct 20, 2008)

Plumbcrazy said:


> I know a guy who works at Lowes here, I will ask if they keep 50%.
> 
> As a side note - *our Lowes laid off all their full time employees and only kept part timers due to the slow economy.*


the real canadian stupid store in victoria, british columbia has nothing but part-timers.

if lowes is unionized, that may be a tactical move on the management's part. no full-time employee means no full-time benefits.

kinda makes you think.

Vince


----------



## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

leaks said:


> I dont understand why you bother pulling a permit for a water heater? If you know what your doing you don't need an inspector to come in and tell you that your water shut off is in the right place and the gas cock is before the union like it was on the old one. We never pull permits and in 15 years there hasn't been one problem even with out sticker and date of installation on it...


Homeowners & hacks install water heaters all the time with no permit, but the licensed plumber has to have them checked. STUPID. Should be the other way around - Licensed plumber = no inspection. Hack/homeowner install = inspection.

If the jurisdictions were interested in safety rather than money, they would do the above. To catch the offenders all they would have to do is requre showing license when purchasing water heaters - anyone not licensed would have to give name and location of water heater install and pay their inspection fee upon purchase. Then the local inspector would really have something to inspect.

Inspections on water heaters not required here.


----------



## franchiseyoung (Sep 5, 2008)

The way we have been able to beat the unlicenced no permit pulling handyman is volume buying (we buy over 5,000 a year) have 10 on each truck, give customer the lowest price on the phone with same day service, tv, radio and internet marketing
Works for us!
Jeff
Mr. Waterheater


----------



## ASUPERTECH (Jun 22, 2008)

service guy said:


> Money isn't the only reason I won't work for the DIY stores. *Working for the bigbox stores I consider "sleeping with the enemy."*:no:


AMEN-AMEN-AMEN can I get an AMEN Please.
Brothers times are tuff,
Economically things are ruff
So Keep your heads up
And if all else fails dink a bunch of beer and run around in the 
buff:laughing:


----------



## patrick88 (Oct 14, 2008)

ASUPERTECH said:


> AMEN-AMEN-AMEN can I get an AMEN Please.
> And if all else fails dink a bunch of beer and run around in the
> buff:laughing:


 Remind me not to drink with you.

Well there will always be DIY H/O. Making it harder to get the products would go along way. The ones that scare me are the ones that really don't know what a wrench is.


----------



## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

leaks said:


> I dont understand why you bother pulling a permit for a water heater? If you know what your doing you don't need an inspector to come in and tell you that your water shut off is in the right place and the gas cock is before the union like it was on the old one. We never pull permits and in 15 years there hasn't been one problem even with out sticker and date of installation on it...


That is until 7 years later someone get CO poisoned and since you are the one that installed it without a permit you will be held responsiable.

This is one of the reasons that for the last 7 years all water heaters are permitted, wether they get inspected or not.


----------



## rrman (Oct 29, 2008)

New Jersey requires A licenced electrician and plumber to install a water heater.2 permits. rrman


----------



## RGB Plumbing (Oct 10, 2008)

According to UPC code, a permit is required on all water heater installations, including changeouts. Here in north mexifornia, the county I work in does not require an inspection, but they will take your money if you offer it to them. The inspectors in my county know less than the installers and they would take a week before they got to it even though there is nothing to do. All of my new construction projects and remodels get permited and inspected, maintanence and general replacements do not.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Well said. It just goes with running a legitimate operation.
 


Killertoiletspider said:


> Some people prefer to dowork that is legal and upfront as opposed to breaking the law at the risk of heavy fines and a possible loss of their license.


----------



## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

What if the state law says WH R&R has to be permitted but inspectors from the top down order you to not pull a permit? And not a soul does?

What then?


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Get it in writing from them.


----------



## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

Protech said:


> Get it in writing from them.


Couldn't. Tried pulling a permit. It was denied and got my butt chewed.

I ain't trying to be an arse here. Just trying to point out that the reality on the ground doesn't always meet what I think it should. 

And seeing if any of you have any answers.


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Take it up with your state plumbing board if you have one, chief plumbing inspector, we have one here in Oregon


----------



## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> chief plumbing inspector,


He was the one who called me!

I called a couple members of the board. Take it up with the head inspector. That's his call.

Meanwhile, people died. (That ain't empty rhetoric. My company gave a quote for a gas WH R&R, was turned down, a hack plumber did the work, 2 dead and one messed up for life from carbon monoxide poisoning due to faulty install.)


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Like I said earlier, permits are technically required here. But that doesn't mean anything. Everyday, water heaters are installed by unlicensed incompetent people here. And nobody is punished. The permit/inspection system doesn't work to stop people from doing whatever they heck they want. *The only solution I see is to require a permit to even BUY a water heater.* That way a homeowner can't buy one and then have their 'handyman' install it and have it leak monoxide, explode or whatever.


----------



## Wiser (Jul 25, 2008)

Every area is different. Just went to a property the other day and found a house where some of the drain pipes in the crawlspace were never connected. The venting went up to the attic and stopped. When the home was built two years ago they received the occupancy permit.

Another small town - official rule for permits - any job over $100.00 requires a permit. So I ask, if we rebuild a toilet, it's over $100.00 - Do we get a permit? Oh no, you wouldn't do that! Than what is the damn rule. Do we get to pick and choose which ones to follow? What is "official" vs. what is "real world" is very different.


----------



## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

Bradford White has that guide on I think it's 30 reasons to get a pro to install your water heater. It would be interesting if Bradford White had a TV commercial which had depicted cases in a short documentry type fashion of drastic problems (death, injury, explosion) of hot water tanks that were not installed by licensed professionals with permits.


----------



## Proud Plumber (Sep 15, 2008)

We are not required to pull permits for heaters in my area. At least for the past ten years. They tried permits about 12 years ago and it buried the already overwhelmed inspectors. However, I suspect we are going o be pulling permits for just about anything in the future as inspectors are having a tough time of it justifying there existence with things so slow.


----------



## TradeQualified (Aug 28, 2008)

*Same happens here in the UK*

Service Guy,

We go through the same problems here in the UK

"it is supposed to be illegal for anyone to install a water heater without pulling a permit and having a plumbing license. Yet, every day unlicensed handymen install water heaters without a permit"

A lot of unlicensed so called "plumbers", are offering cheap services and are taking some of our business away.


----------



## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

I got two water heaters this past week. A miracle!!! Both people just wanted it done by someone they could trust do do it fast and professional.:thumbsup:
Then last night and this morning I get two calls about electric heater replacements. Both calls immediately asked about price. I told both of them I would have to physically see the job to give them an exact quote, but I gave them a realistic range. One said she was calling around for prices, and I never heard back from her. The other guy made an appointment and then called 10 minutes later and cancelled.

I am seriously considering to start using Protech's method of qualifying the customers. I figure I have nothing to lose. Even if it reduces my already low number of W/H installs, I really don't care as I would rather not do them at all if I am not making a decent profit for my time.


----------

