# Backflow preventer?



## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

I've never worked on these before. I
This one Is leaking out of what looks like a little weep hole in the center of that diaphragm . Can this be opened and repaired or do I just replace the whole thing?


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

voltatab said:


> I've never worked on these before. I
> This one Is leaking out of what looks like a little weep hole in the center of that diaphragm . Can this be opened and repaired or do I just replace the whole thing?


 The entire thing can be rebuilt in place.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Ok thanks. 

I know itlooks bad but like I said I've never had to work or install one of these before. Is that all this is, is just a Backflow preventer?


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## timplmbr (Mar 16, 2011)

it can be repaired in place / or depending on age , crude may have built up inside and may need replaced, it looks like a standard 3/4 backflow preventer


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

1 1/4 copper coming in and out of it. 

I want to rebuild it so I can get a little experience with these, but also don't want to tear it apart to realize I need a new one


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

voltatab said:


> 1 1/4 copper coming in and out of it.
> 
> I want to rebuild it so I can get a little experience with these, but also don't want to tear it apart to realize I need a new one


 Rebuilding this one should be pretty straightforward.

However, if replacing it is an option, then I'd go for the replacement.

More money for you and you get to take the device home with you to strip down and see what makes it tick.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Depending on where you're located, you may need a cccdi cert to tear into that.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

That's a wilkins 975....Easy rebuild....You can get a complete rebuild kit or just get the parts for the relief valve like you need, by looking at the pics.... You have to be backflow certified to rebuild them here....Plumbers can replace the whole assembly all they want though....


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

You need a permit, you will need to test the device after the repair, and submit the test results to the water purveyor.

Dude, it's life safety. Don't mess with it if you ain't qualified. And, by qualified, I mean took the 40 some hour class................spent the $800.00 on the test kit...............


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

should we warn him about the springs?


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

house plumber said:


> should we warn him about the springs?



No.

Where would be the fun in that?

Besides, they're low tensile. They should be somewhere within 275 feet of the working area when they finally land.:laughing:


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

if you replace it, put in some isolation valves and unions for the next plumber


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Hmmm, I'll have to look it up here if I new to be Certified on Cali. The homeowner did say that he needs to send in a report every year to the city or something about it. 

Haha I did read on the top that it has springs which i assume jump out an punch you in the face when opening the top....?


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Life safety? How much pressure are we talking about? Why do results need to be sent in and all that.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

voltatab said:


> Haha I did read on the top that it has springs which i assume jump out an punch you in the face when opening the top....?


 Yes they do.

I generally put a terry towel over the top of the casting I'm removing.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

voltatab said:


> Life safety? How much pressure are we talking about? Why do results need to be sent in and all that.


Not trying to sound like a jerk, but do you know why these assy's are used and the importance of these assy's?


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Widdershins said:


> No.
> 
> Where would be the fun in that?
> 
> Besides, they're low tensile. They should be somewhere within 275 feet of the working area when they finally land.:laughing:


With my luck they would hit me in the eye. Ask bayside


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Colgar said:


> Not trying to sound like a jerk, but do you know why these assy's are used and the importance of these assy's?


 I'm not familiar with this particular application, but it has been my experience that most cross connection requirements err on the side of caution to the extreme and are in fact overkill.

That's just my experience.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

house plumber said:


> With my luck they would hit me in the eye. Ask bayside


 Sounds like a very valuable life lesson -- A lesson that should be experienced, not read about.

Then again, I'm an unapologetic student/arsehole from the school of 'Hard Knocks'.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Widdershins said:


> Sounds like a very valuable life lesson -- A lesson that should be experienced, not read about.
> 
> Then again, I'm an unapologetic student/arsehole from the school of 'Hard Knocks'.


No one got hit in the eye. I just happen to get stuff in my eye all the time. Even with safety glasses on.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

The springs to watch are in the 6" and 8" devices.

Mark


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> The springs to watch are in the 6" and 8" devices.
> 
> Mark


Those are the ones you don't want to watch too closely.... :laughing:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

RealLivePlumber said:


> You need a permit, you will need to test the device after the repair, and submit the test results to the water purveyor.
> 
> Dude, it's life safety. Don't mess with it if you ain't qualified. And, by qualified, I mean took the 40 some hour class................spent the $800.00 on the test kit...............


 



Good advice, RLP.

At a minimum, one needs to be a licensed plumber in order to open a potable water line; then that person needs a backflow tester's certification to re-certify the assembly after repair. And in order to repair an assembly, you need a backflow repair certification.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

In Louisiana you don't have to be a licensed plumber to install a backflow.... 

They have what they call an Irrigation Specialist who, after proving he or she has worked in the Irrigation field for 4 years, can sit for their backflow cert.

Use to we would come in and set the backflow and they could pipe to it.

Now we leave a valve and they can set their own backflow, with the cert of course.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

The State came down hard after this incident back in 2000 

$1.2 million settlement reached over contaminated drinking water

Julia Robb 
Posted on March 3, 2004

In May 2000, residents living in and around the Walden Point subdivision in Pineville found that their drinking water had been contaminated with sewage.

On Tuesday, about 110 of those residents had their revenge in 9th Judicial District Court in Alexandria.

Insurance companies representing the city of Pineville and Pan American Engineers, the city's engineering firm, agreed to settle the residents' lawsuit for $1.2 million.

That amount represents all costs and damages, including medical costs, according to lawyers involved in the case.

All plaintiffs must agree to the settlement before money is distributed.

The city of Pineville itself does not have to contribute to the settlement, according to attorney Jimmy Faircloth, who represented Pineville in court.

One plaintiff was not included in the settlement, as that plaintiff is making more extensive medical claims than others who joined the consolidated suit, Faircloth said.

A number of families are among the 110 residents benefiting from Tuesday's settlement. For example, four of the residents may belong to the same family.

Faircloth said the sewage affected about 60 residences. About 35 of those residences were in Walden Point, city officials have said.

Plaintiff Karen Bond said she's glad the suit "is almost over. It's been three years."

Some of the plaintiffs are getting more money than others are, she said, and the amounts depend on the amount of medical care the plaintiff needed due to the sewage and a family's size.

Bond said she and husband, James, did not have serious medical problems due to the sewage and were not getting much money.

The couple will not even be able to pay off their $14,000 car, she said.

Judy Boles said she and her husband declined to join the lawsuit because they knew the contamination "was an accident, and we did not want to cause any difficulty to the city."

"I knew the one who made the mistake was not out to harm anyone," Boles said. "And we were not harmed" by the sewage.

Pineville Mayor Clarence Fields said he is pleased with the settlement, but he expects it will affect the city's insurance rates. The city gets its coverage from Coregis Insurance Co., which also was sued. Pan American Engineers and its insurance company, Security Insurance of Hartford, were also defendants in the case.

"The city has tried to show it is concerned about what happened. I'm relieved. We need to move forward," the mayor said.

Fields said the city's water and sewerage department has been reorganized since the sewage incident in order to show residents that the city has done everything it can to "prevent anything of this magnitude happening again."

State certified city employees must now inspect every water and sewerage connection before the city signs off on a job, he said.

Fields hopes that the last plaintiff and that plaintiff's insurance company will come to an agreement.

The residents' water was contaminated when a city employee inadvertently connected a business' sewerage pipe to a 6-inch water pipe.

Faircloth said sewage was forced into the water line when one of the company's three employees or customers used the toilet.

Faircloth said the sewage was treated at a small plant before it went into the water pipe, and it was diluted by a large amount of good water.

At the time the problem was discovered, an engineer for the city said health risks to affected residents were "minimal" because of the chlorine the city adds to the water.

Pineville workers tested the water after residents complained, but they could not find anything wrong for two months, Faircloth said.

The problem was brought to city officials' attention by a resident who noticed "white stringy matter" had clogged filters on a washing machine and a dishwasher. The material also clogged an icemaker. The material turned out to be toilet paper.

Other residents complained about smelly water coming from the tap.

The city ended up replacing various residents' appliances that were contaminated, including hot water heaters.

The sewage problem put Pineville in the international spotlight for a short time.

The Associated Press picked up a Town Talk story about the polluted water, which led to a Cable News Network story.

Attorney Thomas Wahlder, who filed the initial lawsuits, said he feels "really good" about the settlement.

"The whole litigation involved complicated issues of insurance coverage," he said, "and linking each plaintiff's illness to the particular discharge in question. That was an issue.

"All the parties gave up a little bit to get the matter resolved. The alternative would have been years of litigation."


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Colgar
I am not familiar with these at all. If you want to explain what these are all about I would appreciate it. 
I have no problem admitting inexperience with certain aspects of plumbing that have never crossed my path- so please, explain away


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

Well I just passed on the job...looks like you do need a license here. 

Im Bummed, I still want to learn about those things and open one up!


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

voltatab said:


> Well I just passed on the job...looks like you do need a license here.
> 
> Im Bummed, I still want to learn about those things and open one up!








Take the course with an instructor at your local trade school and they'll have a wet lab where you can work on backflow devices. After the course, if you pass the exam, then you'll be backflow certified.

Beware of companies that offer the course and only give the 'tester' certification and not the 'repair' certification.

There are (2) certs: tester & repair. Get 'em both.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

voltatab said:


> Ok thanks.
> 
> I know itlooks bad but like I said I've never had to work or install one of these before. Is that all this is, is just a Backflow preventer?


Just curious, how have you never come across a back flow preventer?
Are they required by you? Every single domestic water service has them here.
Also every time you leave an outlet for hvac, irrigation, pool, etc.
I guess if you don't have public water service you wouldn't come across it?


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

One little o-ring will make that stop.......


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> One little o-ring will make that stop.......


Thats a fact. I was called out to a place that had an 8" RP leaking, the city took it apart and such and could not figure out why it was leaking still. I show up, look it over and replaced an O-ring problem solved.


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## breid1903 (Feb 8, 2009)

*nyc*

i'm 66 and only seen 2 on my city kids houses. 1 on my inlaws. i see them on places when on an away drive. none here. breid................:rockon:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

breid1903 said:


> i'm 66 and only seen 2 on my city kids houses. 1 on my inlaws. i see them on places when on an away drive. none here. breid................:rockon:


 You're older than me?

Gawd, I really am a wuss.


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## shakeyglenn68 (Dec 29, 2010)

Put in over 100 of these, http://www.watts.com/pages/whatsnew/919.asp some back to back (mainly in restaurants *McDonald's, Toby's Bar and Grill, Sonic to name a few). Some cities here require the Pressure zone, some just a Expansion relief with a regulator and manual check valve, all depends on which city your in. The springs are a B****! In the 8". Had an 8" every 4 days had to disassemble and clean, some joker of a sparky cut water service line and filled 2" line with gravel failed to tell anyone about it, even repaired the cut water line himself. We got to the point that we would bury service lines 8 ft when not under roads to prevent stinger happy electricians from cutting us. Always coated the O-ring with plumbers grease (May not be required but my journeyman at the time required it. Wait till you get the pleasure of tapping a city 6" high pressure water main (Most cities here do this for you, some don't).


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> You're older than me?
> 
> Gawd, I really am a wuss.


And you thought the only things older than you were dirt, fire, and possibly the wheel...

:laughing:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

U666A said:


> And you thought the only things older than you were dirt, fire, and possibly the wheel...
> 
> :laughing:


 Shaddup, young'un. I'll let you know when it's permissible to have an opinion. :laughing:


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> Shaddup, young'un. I'll let you know when it's permissible to have an opinion. :laughing:


Sorry gramps... Understood.

Shall I now go out into the corn field to cut you a switch???

:jester:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

U666A said:


> Sorry gramps... Understood.
> 
> Shall I now go out into the corn field to cut you a switch???
> 
> :jester:


I'm thinking more along the lines of vine maple.

That'll definitely raise a welt.


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## voltatab (Jan 2, 2010)

NYC plumber- 

They are not on any residential homes around here. Just commercial which i rarely work on. 
Residential just has a standard city water meter, then most times a pressure regulator and shutoff, but I've seen older homes out here with a city meter only. 

So I see them all over but it's never been integral to my job to learn about em


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

I hear ya, I actually never did any repair or testing work on them either.
Usually guys specialize in that around here.
We do install them though.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

NYC Plumber said:


> Just curious, how have you never come across a back flow preventer?
> Are they required by you? Every single domestic water service has them here.
> Also every time you leave an outlet for hvac, irrigation, pool, etc.
> I guess if you don't have public water service you wouldn't come across it?


I've installed hundreds of backflow devices and they are not required on every single domestic service in nyc although they are required on all boilers which would make it more like thousands installed but we never repaired them if they fail, for liability purposes, also rpz's with drain ports do weep on occasion which is why they must be supplied with a drain also here an rpz must be located above street level and must be installed between meter and test tee and the meter and test tee are located in most basements so you have to loop up and back down it can be a real pain


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

I don't know we install them on every water service.
I think it's DEP requirement.
I don't do much residential so maybe it's just habit from commercial?
If it's not required on residential, it should be to avoid stories like this....

http://www.apexbackflow.com/Case Histories1.htm


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

NYC Plumber said:


> I don't know we install them on every water service.
> I think it's DEP requirement.
> I don't do much residential so maybe it's just habit from commercial?
> If it's not required on residential, it should be to avoid stories like this....
> ...


http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/pdf/water_sewer/6_cross_connection_risk_assessment.pdf

I think it would be great for us if they were required on every single service but as it is I take what I can get


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

You learn something new everyday.
Thats a helpful chart also, thanks!
It's still good practice to install them, I think though.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

NYC Plumber said:


> You learn something new everyday.
> Thats a helpful chart also, thanks!
> It's still good practice to install them, I think though.


I agree but it can't be part of the meter set when its not required and I've never heard of anyone requesting backflow prevention. The thing is without required testing it don't matter one of your case studies was protected by a vacuum breaker that failed so it only works with inspections and fines IMHO


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## bigdaddyrob (May 14, 2009)

I am kind of in shock and a little jealous lol a duel check is required on every single residential main here and cross connection is beat into our heads from day one. 

While that is a big daddy of backflow... It's not common to see these in resi homes in Maryland. But I just came back from FL and you can't help tripping over them everywhere. 

It's all the level of protection you are required to meet. Here( in MD ) if there is any chance for cross connection- you Will (sayeth the code) take means to prevent it. 

Hell, you can't sit for any of your exams unless you have a current card and county's won't recipe if your not active. WSSC, just had me pull the Backflow card out with the Lic. 

But it's great you wanna keep learning. Try and find a state approved backflow class - just the methods and reasons for it will open your eyes to how potentially dangerous it can be. Good base knowledge or being more aware.
Even tho you don't have to! 
<insert jealous. . Lol


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

A dual check is not really an approved device but it does make the purveyor feel all warm and fuzzy. I require dual checks on all of our meter yokes.

Mark


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