# A new toilet only made it worse!!!



## falloutman22 (Sep 15, 2010)

I recently responded to a service call for a backed up sewer. I was at this same house about two weeks prior to install/replace a toilet. I had taken out an old 3gallon+ toilet and replaced it with a cheap but efficient toilet the H.O. had provided. I usually keep my mouth shut now when I see some of the toilets people buy, and I just put them in and make my money. The sewer was backed up on the first/main floor of this old victorian house, but wasn't backed up in the basement. I pulled the toilet and ran the auger numerous times back and forth until it reached the cleanout in the basement, which was dry by the way. So I came to the conclusion that the toilet paper had been slowly building up in the line creating a sludge, "charmin sucks". Turns out the old toilet was actually getting enough water into the line to flush out all of the paper. 1.6 gallons was just not cutting it on this one. I jetted the line and told them to change toilet paper and get a better toilet!!!!:laughing:


----------



## UnclogNH (Mar 28, 2009)

Been dealing with this problem myself customers buying the cheapest toilet for their remodel or just to switch out their old toilets to save on the water bill. Now they are have same problems sludge and pulp back ups in their sewer lateral's. Crap is not making it out 50 to a 100 feet to the city line.
Used the camera to inspect sewer for possible sags none it's just not making it.
*Job Security*


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

So it begins. 

There has been much speculation on if and when this problem would occur. Now what does the homeowner do? They cannot buy a 3.5 gallon toilet. 

How do you correct the problem? 

While I don't like cheap toilets, I fail to see how a better flushing toilet, still using 1.6 and less, will help make that much of a difference. 

Ah, the move to green is gonna cost people some green. :laughing:


----------



## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

Yeah, we saw that a lot when people had old 4" CI lateral to the W/C. The 1.6 or worse, the 1.28 just doesn't make enough volume to float it all away.


----------



## UnclogNH (Mar 28, 2009)

Indie said:


> So it begins.
> 
> There has been much speculation on if and when this problem would occur. Now what does the homeowner do? They cannot buy a 3.5 gallon toilet.
> 
> ...


I tell customers once a week fill their washer machine and flush their system out.


----------



## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

falloutman22 said:


> I recently responded to a service call for a backed up sewer. I was at this same house about two weeks prior to install/replace a toilet. I had taken out an old 3gallon+ toilet and replaced it with a cheap but efficient toilet the H.O. had provided. I usually keep my mouth shut now when I see some of the toilets people buy, and I just put them in and make my money. The sewer was backed up on the first/main floor of this old victorian house, but wasn't backed up in the basement. I pulled the toilet and ran the auger numerous times back and forth until it reached the cleanout in the basement, which was dry by the way. So I came to the conclusion that the toilet paper had been slowly building up in the line creating a sludge, "charmin sucks". Turns out the old toilet was actually getting enough water into the line to flush out all of the paper. 1.6 gallons was just not cutting it on this one. I jetted the line and told them to change toilet paper and get a better toilet!!!!:laughing:


You might be able to get a partial re-pipe job out of it. In addressing this same complaint with customers having older homes, I've found that the only really effective way to solve the problem is to re-pipe the trap arm to the W/C in 3". Wet vent it if you can. Make sure you put a strong quarter bubble on it as well. Also, see if you can plumb the washing machine in upstream of the W/C. The volume of water discharged from that will help keep the trunk clear if it is a long horizontal run as well.

Hope this helps!


----------



## Plantificus (Sep 17, 2009)

I usually tell the HO to fill a bathtub once a month and flush the line, especially if they have a long run with bellies in the line... with 4 in cast in under the house with scale and 6 in clay outside 1.6 gallons is nothing and 1.28 is terrifying


----------



## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

You can simply change the flapper in some toilets to empty the whole tank. Kohler and Gerber are my toilets of choice.


----------



## Flyin Brian (Aug 22, 2009)

Indie said:


> So it begins.
> 
> There has been much speculation on if and when this problem would occur. Now what does the homeowner do? They cannot buy a 3.5 gallon toilet.
> 
> ...


ummmm, not sure where you been but in the last few years toilets have made significant changes in regards to making the flushvalves larger as well as the trapways you may spend a couple hundred $, but afterall in the end ya get what ya pay for don't ya?


----------



## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

I had a customer with a similar situation years ago, they wanted new toilets installed and we put in two Drakes for them. A month later the sewerline is backed up and is a bear to clear. We videoed the line and found the line totally submerged in water and back pitched all under the slab. The 3.5gpf kept it going all that time, but when their "upgrade" came in, that's when the problem was aggravated.

Makes for a good policy to keep the old toilets for a month or so after changeouts.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

buy a maxwell toilet and change the flapper. Done.



Indie said:


> So it begins.
> 
> There has been much speculation on if and when this problem would occur. Now what does the homeowner do? They cannot buy a 3.5 gallon toilet.
> 
> ...


----------



## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

UnclogNH said:


> Been dealing with this problem myself customers buying the cheapest toilet for their remodel or just to switch out their old toilets to save on the water bill. Now they are have same problems sludge and pulp back ups in their sewer lateral's. Crap is not making it out 50 to a 100 feet to the city line.
> Used the camera to inspect sewer for possible sags none it's just not making it.
> *Job Security*


Been theree, done that. Cheap American Standard toilet from Slowes. Camera proved it


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

The issue is not clearing the toilet, but getting drain line carry. Doesn't matter how well the toilet flushes that 1.6 gallons, it's still 1.6 gallons going into the drains.

The problem comes into play when there are long runs with no "booster flow". You have nasty people who take a dump in that one toilet on a long run by itself and they don't wash their hands after so all you have in the line is that 1.6 gallons. The solids settle in the line a form a buildup. Add old crusty cast iron and or bellys in the line and it will be a service cash cow.

Now, if we are talking about a new pvc line at the correct pitch with some branch connections within 40-50 feet to keep things rinsed, then 1.6 gallons (or less) works fine.




Flyin Brian said:


> ummmm, not sure where you been but in the last few years toilets have made significant changes in regards to making the flushvalves larger as well as the trapways you may spend a couple hundred $, but afterall in the end ya get what ya pay for don't ya?


----------



## beavercreekhc (Mar 15, 2010)

anymore on a toilet change out if accessible, i inform the ho to replace the cast branch back to the main with a new closet flange and sch. 40 pvc pipe. most of them look at ya dumb but when you get called back out they usually say go ahead and change it.


----------



## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

gitnerdun said:


> You can simply change the flapper in some toilets to empty the whole tank. Kohler and Gerber are my toilets of choice.


 
Yeah. Problem is the bowl only has about 2 gallons capacity. So when the wc stops up, the other gallon and a half is on the floor.


----------



## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Yeah. Problem is the bowl only has about 2 gallons capacity. So when the wc stops up, the other gallon and a half is on the floor.


 
Haven't seen that yet. Most bowls gotta hold more than the tank, at least they look like it. Most HOs like to keep on trying to flush anyway, they think the next time it will surely go down, and if not then, one more time oughta do it for sure.


----------



## breid1903 (Feb 8, 2009)

called veteran plumbing in windsor. they said that "they quit making them". as in the americans. i used to go up there and get them. purely for show only. when i repipe a house now i try to get the stool downstream as far as possible. folk that are on septics and/or are frugal have the most problems. breid.................:rockon:


----------



## Flyin Brian (Aug 22, 2009)

Protech said:


> The issue is not clearing the toilet, but getting drain line carry. Doesn't matter how well the toilet flushes that 1.6 gallons, it's still 1.6 gallons going into the drains.
> 
> The problem comes into play when there are long runs with no "booster flow". You have nasty people who take a dump in that one toilet on a long run by itself and they don't wash their hands after so all you have in the line is that 1.6 gallons. The solids settle in the line a form a buildup. Add old crusty cast iron and or bellys in the line and it will be a service cash cow.
> 
> Now, if we are talking about a new pvc line at the correct pitch with some branch connections within 40-50 feet to keep things rinsed, then 1.6 gallons (or less) works fine.


understood,he was talking about how 1.6 gpf don't flush as well as the old 3.5 gpf toilets.nothing was said about "booster flow" or someone taking a dump with out washing there hands until you did........


----------



## ianclapham (Jan 10, 2011)

this has been a concern over here for years, only on ground floor toilets though, 1st floor discharge into a vertical soil stack so the flow rate does not apply as much.

If the HO requires a smaller flush thats fine but i advise they will be seeing alot more of me in the future...........and they do


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Flyin Brian said:


> understood,he was talking about how 1.6 gpf don't flush as well as the old 3.5 gpf toilets.nothing was said about "booster flow" or someone taking a dump with out washing there hands until you did........


I guess you missed the part where he said he was talking about a backed up sewer........... not a backed up toilet. reading comprehension is key.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

ianclapham said:


> this has been a concern over here for years, only on ground floor toilets though, 1st floor discharge into a vertical soil stack so the flow rate does not apply as much.
> 
> If the HO requires a smaller flush thats fine but i advise they will be seeing alot more of me in the future...........and they do


I haven't seen any problems with low flow toilets that were of high quality and installed on systems designed for them.

it's when you slap 1 in a 60 year old cast iron home that you run into problems.


----------



## Flyin Brian (Aug 22, 2009)

Protech said:


> I guess you missed the part where he said he was talking about a backed up sewer........... not a backed up toilet. reading comprehension is key.


I was refering to indie's post about the toilets. not the orginal poster.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

and he, like myself was talking about the issue of drain line carry, not toilets clogging.



Flyin Brian said:


> I was refering to indie's post about the toilets. not the orginal poster.


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

The topic of 'line carry' is defintely an issue with the 1.6 gpf w/c's. The pressure-assist w/c's give you more line carry than a gravity flush w/c. I always give a recommendation to my commercial customers to replace a gravity w/c with a pressure-assist w/c. With regard to a residential application, people might not want to have that fixture in their homes. The noise alone is objectionable in a residence.


----------



## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

In time we will discover that pvc lines will start to clog up similar to the cast iron. Organic materials do build up in pvc the difference it will be much easier to eliminate the organic material in pvc with hydro jetting. We already have some issues with the pvc lines and the low flow water closets and distance.

Older toilets were meant to carry the waste and the low flows are meant to push the waste. Wet venting with a flat horizontal drain and distance between the vent causes the water to get ahead of the waste.

 I am not sure how PVC lines are installed elsewhere here installers use hack saws or any type saw he or she can put their hands on and that means unlevel joints that grab organic materials ,paper and waste buildup is an issue. Carry is as far as the carry will go. Accumulation buildup is a problem and will always be a problem.


----------



## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> The topic of 'line carry' is defintely an issue with the 1.6 gpf w/c's. The pressure-assist w/c's give you more line carry than a gravity flush w/c. I always give a recommendation to my commercial customers to replace a gravity w/c with a pressure-assist w/c. With regard to a residential application, people might not want to have that fixture in their homes. The noise alone is objectionable in a residence.


What's your favorite brand/model on the pressure-assist.
I ask because back when I did service work with my old boss we had a customer who demanded the pressure-assist. He told me he thought they were crap because he'dget a call back about every 3 years on the tank not working properly. The brand we were dealing with (I can't remember, but know he was a kohler toilet lover) had a tank like a new car engine. There was no room to work in it. He'd just tell the customer that the city water was bad and that the whole tank needed replacement.


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

This is the last one I installed, I beleive the fixture (china) was Kohler, but the tank's pressure vessel was Sloan.


----------



## rynisbalinis (Jan 20, 2011)

*toilet upgrade*



greenscoutII said:


> Yeah, we saw that a lot when people had old 4" CI lateral to the W/C. The 1.6 or worse, the 1.28 just doesn't make enough volume to float it all away.


 not completely kosher but u can replace the flush valve with that new toronado 3" flush valve with adjusting fill tube it tank is big enough and a pro fill valve seems to work for me its new but works so far before moving to a new toilet


----------

