# Toilet Tank leak / No Guaranty



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I need advice on this type of situation. Yesterday got a call for a toilet leak in the basement, turned out to be some fully corroded steel tank bolts. I told the guy 3 times that I could replace the bolts but there wouldn't be any guarantee and if it leaked again he'd need a new toilet. I repeated this 3 times and he said "We're crossing fingers". I even wrote on the work order no guarantee on the repair and he signed it when payment was due.

Today he calls back saying it's leaking again and he was really angry, he paid that much money and I didn't tell him go get a new one etc. I told him I'd go back and reset the bolts but if it leaked one more time he'd need a new toilet and I wasn't going to buy him one.

So what do you guys suggest if it leaks again? I'm not inclined to do a free install. I wouldn't be surprised if he files a complaint and put in a bad review. Maybe it's better to do a free install (He'd supply the toilet I suppose) and be done with it?


One thing for sure from now on any tank bolt leak it's going to be a a toilet swap, it's a 50/50 chance it'll leak again based on my experience.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Tough one, I guarantee my repairs for a year usually. If it’s still leaking it’s a call back on you or the tank is cracked and you missed it. Credit the repair towards a new toilet and keep the customer happy for repeat business and referrals.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

i would have told him the toilet is past its useful age. replace it. done. not kicking a dead horse.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Thing is the only thing I can guarantee are the tank bolts, I can't guarantee the old porcelain because it's his and like 20 some years old. I even told him that. They think the work is under warranty and that I'm going to buy them a new toilet. It's happened a few times so that was the last one I replace tank bolts.

That's an idea to credit towards a new one but isn't it like doing it for free anyway? Other than the price of a new toilet if I supply it.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Tango said:


> Thing is the only thing I can guarantee are the tank bolts, I can't guarantee the old porcelain because it's his and like 20 some years old. I even told him that. They think the work is under warranty and that I'm going to buy them a new toilet. It's happened a few times so that was the last one I replace tank bolts.
> 
> That's an idea to credit towards a new one but isn't it like doing it for free anyway? Other than the price of a new toilet if I supply it.


Did you replace the tank to bowl gasket too? You should if you’re replacing the bolts.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Debo22 said:


> Did you replace the tank to bowl gasket too? You should if you’re replacing the bolts.


Not on that one usually I replace it but this one was a gasket that extends to the bolt holes.


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Tango said:


> Not on that one usually I replace it but this one was a gasket that extends to the bolt holes.


What brand? Sounds like Kohler with the 3 bolt holes incorporated in the tank to bowl gasket.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> Thing is the only thing I can guarantee are the tank bolts, I can't guarantee the old porcelain because it's his and like 20 some years old. I even told him that. They think the work is under warranty and that I'm going to buy them a new toilet. It's happened a few times so that was the last one I replace tank bolts.
> 
> That's an idea to credit towards a new one but isn't it like doing it for free anyway? Other than the price of a new toilet if I supply it.





Debo22 said:


> Did you replace the tank to bowl gasket too? You should if you’re replacing the bolts.



*I second this. The tank to bowl seal and new tank bolts go hand in hand, no pun intended lolz.*


Honestly, sounds a bit to me like you don't do many of these, you're unsure of your work, and maybe don't want to deal with that head on. We all have times like that, even after years of doing this you occasionally run into something new or something you rarely do and it's to be expected that we aren't great at every single plumbing task there is, especially the jobs we infrequently perform.


Not every tank to bowl seal situation is the same either. Some have more of a gap between the tank and the bowl meaning some will rock and some won't seal as well. I prefer to put a backup nut, washer, and rubber washer right on the underside of the tank. Sometimes there isn't room for all this so I have to do it differently. 



I think it's the mid 2000's american standards that have a ledge for the front of the tank to rest on but not the back, I phucking hate those. The kohler three bolt seals a pita too and for a couple years a large number of the bowls dropped at the tail so the bolt in the back had more of a gap and you'd have to put some metal washers in there so the rubber washer wouldn't get pushed through the hole in the tank.

.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Debo22 said:


> What brand? Sounds like Kohler with the 3 bolt holes incorporated in the tank to bowl gasket.


No name brand. Most people buy them and those from big box like glacier bay crap. Even my supplier provides the cheapest ones and I gotta put brass bolts for the tank because they come with steel ones.

But anyways, I'll replace the gasket with a regular one and reset the tank bolts.


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## txdraindoctor (Aug 14, 2020)

*you asked for advice*



Tango said:


> I need advice on this type of situation. Yesterday got a call for a toilet leak in the basement, turned out to be some fully corroded steel tank bolts. I told the guy 3 times that I could replace the bolts but there wouldn't be any guarantee and if it leaked again he'd need a new toilet. I repeated this 3 times and he said "We're crossing fingers". I even wrote on the work order no guarantee on the repair and he signed it when payment was due.
> 
> Today he calls back saying it's leaking again and he was really angry, he paid that much money and I didn't tell him go get a new one etc. I told him I'd go back and reset the bolts but if it leaked one more time he'd need a new toilet and I wasn't going to buy him one.
> 
> ...


is there hair line crack in the tank Tango? im trying to figure out why it would leak, if you replaced the tank to bowl bolts. also have you tried do what i called a "double seal setup" ive actually become so used to doing it this way its second nature. now most new toilets come with enough gaskets& nuts you shouldnt have to open a secondary package. what i do is, and you probably already know top side inside tank the usual gasket under bolt head. bottom side of tank gasket then washer and finally tighten the nut so now you have a double gasket seal on both top and bottom of the tank. then set your tank. ive also found this helps prevent apprentices/helpers from pinging the tank as well as a warranty call. if you havent tried that give it a try. but before doing that there is a way to find an almost impossible to see hairline crack but its gonna require the customer to sign off on consent. i use atad bit of purple primer inside the tank little to no water at all inside. and if its cracks youll see the dark purple line pop right out at you. as far as new toilet goes. anytime i am in a situation like yours, and i know the toilet is in need of being replaced, give them 3 different prices, immediate fix, ie replace tank to bowl bolts, better option major toilet rebuild which includes new flush valve, new fill valve, tank to bowl kit, with new stop and supply. 
best option, install new toilet, make sure to put in detail everything, what the customer stated the issue was when called, what you found to be the issue was after performing a thorough investigation upon your arrival. make sure the main questions when addressing the customer with your findings. 

WHAT? WHEN? AND HOW LONG?

THE WHAT IS GIVEN WHEN CUSTOMER CALLED AND THEN WHEN IS WHEN THE CUSTOMER FIRST NOTICED THE ISSUE AND HOW LONG HAS IT BE GOING ON. DOCUMENT HIS/ANSWERS. THEN WHEN PROVIDING CUSTOMER WITH THEIR OPTIONS. MAKE SURE THEY DO INITIAL BESIDE THE OPTION THEY CHOOSE. THEN THEY MUST SIGN BEFORE YOU BEGIN where they hereby authorize the following option in the of $ _______ 
customer signature__________________
then when the job is done, they also sign again in another spot which states they are hereby 100% satisfied with the completion ofthe work described above.
customer signature____________________
then all of your legal mumbo jumbo fine print below signature. youll find not only will you increase your closing rate, because youre giving the customer options. basically its their home, their money, so youre giving the power to decide on what they want to pay for. this actually makes them feel more in control in their home instead of someone telling them what to do in their own home. think about it would you like it if someone was telling you what to do in your home. in a way it makes them feel helpless, and untrusting. but on the flip side of the coin, its covering you ass, because you gave them options, and they made the decision on what they wanted you to do. you recommended this option, which its written on your invoice customer chose option #___ and its initialed and signed in 2-3 places. no matter what they try and do after that, complaint or court they dont have a leg to stand on. 

as far as what i would do if i gave a customer options, documented every detail and in my professional opinion it is my recommendation that customer etc...._______________. that is totally a judgement call. what i usually do is i credit all or part of any money collected on the previous visit towards the best option that you recommended. depending on the cost of material you used as well as the amount is for the other material youre about to purchase, and i always give a guarantee. never not give one. its bad for business, unless its a food stoppage, landlord tenant. and tenants area abusing system. if you give a warranty, and i mean a damn good one it allows you to keep that customer, as well as develope a history of the home, repeat issues and get back inside to try upsell what you recommended the first go round. this way you can say, and show them the invoice from last trip out. just use the line "see i told you this needed to be done." i know you probably have been taken advantage of before maam/sir. i see it all the time and it gives good honest plumbers like me a bad reputation also. but i am here to help. how about this if you decide to go forward with ALLOWING me to take of your issue for good i will credit this amount towards this option, that way you know im not just here to take your money. sure i need to eat and pay bills like you do, but im not here to nickel and dime you. thats the reason behind me giving you such a hefty guarantee, because i knew this was going to happen again. knowing that if you called another plumber out, all hes PROBABLY gonna do is the same thing i did last time, letting you throw away good money after bad. personally i make more MONEY THROUGH LONGTERM REPEAT BUSINESS AND REFERRALS THAN OVERNIGHT BUSINESS. by not giving a guarantee brother all youre doing is leaving money on the table for someone else to come behind you and pickup, not to mention slamming that customers door on your foot, because youll probably never be able to set foot in that customers home again. and feeding the gasoline to the fire that all customer share alike about plumbers.


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## txdraindoctor (Aug 14, 2020)

*example of invoice to CYA and increase closerate*

heres a few photos to give you an example, a format of this type believe it or not does really work in a bunch of different ways. corporate american doesnt do the good better or best with all the initials because it just looks good. they do it because works. and thats why when you become a member ofthe rheem team, they give all knds of sales boosting material and access to their stuff on their rheem team contractor portal. GOOD,BETTER,BEST. 
options people love having options
welcome to mcdonalds. would you like fries with that, upsize? applepie etc...


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## txdraindoctor (Aug 14, 2020)

new helpers very first repair without my help he had re round the soft copper up top to get coupling on, using his swag, and had to prefab his ball valve outside and let it cool down before pressing so he wouldnt melt oring. he almost worked himself into a bind, and of course i just sat there and drank a cold beer with the owner of sonic. hey ive know him since i was a kid, we go fishing together. and it was 10 at night.


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## txdraindoctor (Aug 14, 2020)

ive been in the service industry over 27 years full time not counting all the ride alongs growing up, been sent to sales training seminars called swat, while working for mr rooter, and taught guys how to boost sales the right way. the honest way. ive trainedsome of houstons top drain techs. 2nd yr apprentices. and they all were bring take home pay of anywhere between 90-130,000 a year. andim gonna lie alotof my journeymen plumbers got pissed that apprentices were making more than them by 2 or 3x the amount. but when i tried to give them cable machines and cameras they didnt want them. the real money is in the ground. not to mention, those guys run all day from one stoppage to the next, while a subcontract crew is digging. when its ready for pipe they run line, and move on to the next stoppage. so theyre literally hitting 4-5x times the amount of calls than the journeymen. they were content of going in and spending 1- 2 hours and collecting maybe 300-400 per ticket. which nothing is wrong with that at all. they just werent allowing themselves the same opportunity. now i own my very own business and 99.9% of my current customers are longtime repeat customers and or referrals. another piece of advice, if i may and this is from personal experience. never do customer supplied installs. and i fill you in on why i stopped. first off you know as well as i do. where almost all customer purchased products come from. and we all know they look the same but not built the same. so lets say this customer buys a toilet from home depot, he pays you to install the toilet, your work is good, you give him a 1yr labor guarantee, and 3 days later he calls and tells you the toilet isnt working/flushing right and that its always taking 2-3 flushes to get everything down. you go out to take a look at it and determine it has bad ports on the rim, which isnt allowing proper gravity flow and restricting the pushing force of the ports. so you let him know what the issue is, by doing the old 5 gallon bucket test. so he wants you to pull the toilet so that he can go and exchange it and can you come back in about an hour to reinstall the new one. and thats when you lay the bombshell of a news flash. you would be more than happy too, however he needs to pay you again. AND BAAMMM!!! customer gets pissed because he just paid 3 days earlier to do this job and now youre gonna charge him again when its still under your 1yr.warranty . then you explain yes you gave him a1yr. warranty on your labor, but your labor wasnt the issue, it was the product, and maybe home depot would be willing to cover his labor expenses. i had the same situation happen to me when i first started my business. including a brand new water heater defective. 2nd story attic, pull down stairs, palying spiderman just to put it in place literally up over a furnace, and duct work. under and over braceboards. i agree its not fair to the customer nor is it to the plumber. i still get alot of those calls and i explain to them why i wont do it by telling them lets say you pay me to install this and if it turns out to be defective, then technically id have to charge you a second time for removing and reinstalling plus an additonal trip fee. its not fair to you and not fair to me. so to help prevent any bad blood or resentment towards me. id much rather decline doing those type of installs in order to maintain my reputation ive worked hard to get where im at and i would much rather walk away from 200 bucks than to risk my reputation. but if you like, how about you pick out the faucet you like, write down the model # and and finish that you want, i will pick up from my supplier, its a bit more expensive than home depot but its made much better. all i ask is that you pay me for what the supply house charges for the faucet i will even give you the reciept so that you know exactly what they charged and you will know im not marking it up. and see that the whole reason right there why customers want to buy their own. because they are scared of the 20-30% mark up. but just tell them i dont need to mark it up, i make my money on my labor. every now and then hand the customer the receipt from the supplier that they printed up showing list pricing not your pricing. customer now knows your didnt mark it up. shes paying what she would have paid if she drove there herself. first off you drove there for her, and that discount is for you as the professional. and youre not lying to them, you told her that she would need to pay you for what the supply house charges for the faucet. now on your old customers, i actually do allow them to pay my wholesale price. 

LOOK I KNOW THIS IS LONG AND DRAGGED OUT, BUT YOUVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT GETTING TURNED DOWN AND HOW YOUVE BEEN WITH ALOT OF THE CUSTOMERS AROUND WHERE YOU LIVE. look point is, actually point isnt the right word here. the HARD TRUTH is, and just think about it and let it resonate what im about to say brother. once it resonates im sure youd agree with this logic. the customers are calling you because youre a plumber, not a handyman or a neighbor down the street. if thats who they wanted then they wouldnt call you. also think of it like this also. THEY CHOSE TO CALL YOU!!! not the other plumbers, BUT THEY CHOSE YOU!!! so take this as an opportunity to add another longterm customer to your quickbooks database. if they werent willing to spend the money on a plumber then they wouldnt pick up the phone to call one. now i realize this isnt true in all cases. but as a whole only about 10% really dont have any idea what it costs so yes they do try and waste our time. just try appoaching thing from a diiferent aspect, also one other thing try and find a specialty niche in your tool belt. something youre very good at, something that customers need more of in your service area, but make sure its a specialty, something that none of the other local plumbers do, also dont want any part of and more than willing to pass on your info to their customer should they need your services. something that only the corporate and franchise chains do also. making them your only competition really. which because you dont have any of their overhead, you would be half their price and still rake in over 400% profit. honestly knick knack faucet repairs, toilet repairs, little things they help pay the bills at times, but theres no money in it. average lowend faucet repair or minor toilet repair lets say 200 bucks for this type. pay per click fee 75-100 bucks, 45 minute drive,gas, GL insuranceetc.. another 50-60 bucks so before. so before physicaly doing any work or using parts its costing 120-140 buck just to get to the front door. moen posi-temp cartidge 60 bucks youll be lucky to make 20 bucks profit on that. i only do them every once in a while ifim bored or dont have anything else.. now as far as that customer is concerned Tango what i would do if it was me, in your shoes, talk to him, obviously he hired you tell him that before he spends any extra money you want to try something to see if theres a hairline crack. if no crack then double gasket seal technique. also wouldnt hurt to replace tank to bowl gasket also if that hasnt been done. my money is on hairline crack. someone ping the tank and hasnt said anything. HINT HINT HINT!! the customer or he just doesnt know. us plumbers we all know that sound. we hear it a mile away it seems.


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## txdraindoctor (Aug 14, 2020)

Tango said:


> I need advice on this type of situation. Yesterday got a call for a toilet leak in the basement, turned out to be some fully corroded steel tank bolts. I told the guy 3 times that I could replace the bolts but there wouldn't be any guarantee and if it leaked again he'd need a new toilet. I repeated this 3 times and he said "We're crossing fingers". I even wrote on the work order no guarantee on the repair and he signed it when payment was due.
> 
> Today he calls back saying it's leaking again and he was really angry, he paid that much money and I didn't tell him go get a new one etc. I told him I'd go back and reset the bolts but if it leaked one more time he'd need a new toilet and I wasn't going to buy him one.
> 
> ...


if i know its going to leak even after i install new bolts, i wont do it, it not worth the headache. nor the risk of damaging my reputation. just tell them you dont need money bad enough where youll be taking a customers money to fix something you know cant be fixed. give him his 2 options replace toilet or call a different plumber who will take his money and wont think twice about it. cut your losses and not collect trip fee. 100 bucks says hed call back after what you said would happen did happen


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## txdraindoctor (Aug 14, 2020)

*you touch it you own it*



Tango said:


> Thing is the only thing I can guarantee are the tank bolts, I can't guarantee the old porcelain because it's his and like 20 some years old. I even told him that. They think the work is under warranty and that I'm going to buy them a new toilet. It's happened a few times so that was the last one I replace tank bolts.
> 
> That's an idea to credit towards a new one but isn't it like doing it for free anyway? Other than the price of a new toilet if I supply it.


not at all brother. debo is 100% correct, it makes the customer feel at ease knowing that you arent gonna keep charging him, i always credit any prior money spent towards the better option for the customer. and you need to change the way your thinking. youre not working for free. your working towards
developing a long term relationship with this customer. do you wanna make 100-200 now or do you wanna sacrifice that first amount paid to earning 20,000 over the years he continues to use you and refer you. also you cant guarantee the twenty year old tank true. but your the professional, and you must guarantee your work point is, you took the tank off, you put the bolts on and rebolted it back down. therefore your responsible unless it is indeed cracked. that your only way out of being the one whos responsible. and yes i too just like debo, give a minimum of 1yr. parts and labor on any repair. on stoppages i give them a (1 T.N.C ) GUARANTEE. THAT A 1 trip no charge. why?? because i wanna be the who they call if it stops up again. especially if you know it has a belly ,roots, or some other issue. i dont want them calling someone else. and since i gave them a 1 trip no charge theyre gonna call me cause its a freebie, for them. it not only gets me back into their home, but also im able to see if it starting to develope a pattern by becoming a repeat issue. also 1 trip no charge means no end date. its physically means you will go q time at no charge. start giving better parts and labor guarantees as well as options, you will slowly start seeing difference in the outcome


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## txdraindoctor (Aug 14, 2020)

Tango said:


> Not on that one usually I replace it but this one was a gasket that extends to the bolt holes.


was it a kholer? if so 2 bolts or 3 bolt pattern


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## txdraindoctor (Aug 14, 2020)

skoronesa said:


> *I second this. The tank to bowl seal and new tank bolts go hand in hand, no pun intended lolz.*
> 
> 
> Honestly, sounds a bit to me like you don't do many of these, you're unsure of your work, and maybe don't want to deal with that head on. We all have times like that, even after years of doing this you occasionally run into something new or something you rarely do and it's to be expected that we aren't great at every single plumbing task there is, especially the jobs we infrequently perform.
> ...


 yeah look at what happened to me, been flagging Nibco fitting coming onto my boiler room repipe job, and somehow one slipped by and got installed my men say that fitting wasnt in a package it was a loose fitting. either way a 3" pipe ruptured on my watch because i didnt pay attention enough to fitting when checking to make sure everything got pressed cut that fker out, replce the flush valve too, if i remember correctly that one or maybe another similar kholer part of that fit under the flush valve nut too. i always cut them off and rebuild the whole damn tank and i always always double gasket seal my tanks never once had an issue doing that.


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## txdraindoctor (Aug 14, 2020)

*The cursed house from hell*

OK so a little over a year ago, one of longtime customers calls me on a Saturday or Sunday night cant remember which. their entire home is backing up and sewer is overflowing out of the showers. so i get ready and head their way, and low and behold they werent kidding, literally ****e everywhere all overthis expensive imported wood flooring. anyways i called out a water extraction company and a pumper truck yes water extraction and pumper truck. the entire right side of home was tied in off of a branch line 15ft under the slab straight ahead from the cleanout in backyard . and the only bathroom not affected was the master with was also straight ahead from the cleaount. so running it from cleanout wouldnt work had to pull toilet that was also affected nearest the combo that connected the branch to main. but couldnt do it with pumping down the system below finish slab level. finally able to pull to toilet, ran about 15 ft and cleared line. as i am retrieving the cable all i could hear was water sloshing inside the drainline. and not a single echo one. im thinking on one hand $$$ one the other this isnt gonna be good news for them. especially since they just recently purchased the home less than a year ago. and i thinking damnit i told them before signing to perform a thorough inspection not just one the realtors get. so i go immediately grab my camera, and not 20% or 50% or 75% but 100% completely full and holding water major belly in the line. the entire length even afteri hit the combo on the end of the branch, and turned into the main heading out to the cleanout. same thing 100 full. so i showed the customerswhat i had found so far, they automatically knew it was expensive, the house they sold we had done the same type of work on that home as well. i didnt have to say a word or even give a price they just said when can you start. i told them let me finish running the camera, i wanted to make sure i knew everything that was needing fixed before sitting down to talk. so i go furthest bathroom on that branch pull that toilet, and it was fine for the first 30-35 ft then i hit water which was around 20ft before the powder room toilet where i ran cable from
long story short they needed 80ft tunnel. move forward a year this was around when covid19 began to hit and they were locking down and doing stay at home. they had heir parents staying with them, so my tech went unstopped the line said it was grease the stopped up that side of the house again. then come 2 more stoppages come after than each time worse and worse. everyone keeps telling they are pouring grease down the sink. im thinking since when does a 2" line with some grease stop up a 4" completely and cause it to overflow again. im thinking ive never seen or heard of that but everyone says the same thing. ran camera in mainline found minute traces of grease but not enough to constitute running the jetter. well the week before last, it happened again, this time i went out, originally thinking that maybe since there were more people staying there, maybe it was someone flushing items that should be. and to my dismay, big ass chunks and i mean bright white solid blocks of grease in the mainline with yep you guess it catching tissue paper and eventually catching enough to block system. determined that the kitchen line was tied in near the center where the major belly was. so that line hadnt flowed properly since it was built, oh what i failed to mention that the plumbers did not sleeve the piping running through the beams, which allowed the concrete to push down on the main causing the belly. anyways so since the kitchen line never flowed porperly it slowly allowed grease to cool of rapidly because the belly caused a domino effect where water was holding in the kitchen also. and since the issue had been fixed, now the kitchen is flowing properly, and has starting break the grease buildup apart and and now its dumping into the main. now here lies the issue and why i call it THE CURSED HOUSE FROM HELL we have ran 2 different cable machines with grease cutter heads, however if i ever met the dumbass who did the rough inn the first thing that would come to my mind is to stuff him inside the tunnel as we backfilledit, but i love my freedom to much to go to jail and lose my freedom over an idiot like him. anyways, instead of stubbing up below the window directly under the sink location, and doing a rolling offset to go around the window with the vent. instead they stub up like 6ft away, then arm over. which in return truly limits our options as far as the size of of cable and type of head. had it been directly under sink even though the .55 cable ofmy spartan 300 technically is big for 2" but had they stubbed up below the sink you could easily slighly bend it enough to make the turn and go down. however the way it is, cant control the end enough all it does is dead head against the san t. and the only cable flexible enough dont have a head bid enough to truly do it justice, been there already and still dumps grease chunks. now i to the point where you guys since you heard the word grease have been screaming jetter jetter. yep been there also. but the 1/2 3000 psi jetter hose is also to damn stiff it dead head in the san t also. cant get it to turn and drop. then the 3/8 1500-2000 psi jetter hose is limber enough to drop down into the san t but no matter what we have tried it wont turn the 90 just below the slab. its not ridged enough its actually too damn limber. cant cut hole in wall to access it that way i would have to pull cabinets other side there's brick, and a custom brick not everyday acme brick. and yep thought of using the vent also but guess what, no vent about the kitchen its a 2 story home and the vent comes up 25-30ft at the rear of home. the only other option ive been able to think of, is something that is a complete pain in the ass for those who have had to do it before. run you machine all the way out to the cleanout, pull it out, tape jetter hose to it. and manually pull it back through the system. however i would have to hit 3 different branches to do that. the cleanout is 4" deep, im not sure if my mind isnt letting me to think clearly enough because of how piss i am at how much time we already wasted on something that technically isnt under warranty and has nothing to with our work. however the customerpaid me fixfix their system and its still isnt fix, and they know it has nothing to do with our work. i just cant allow this home to keep backing up. 
im all ears to someone who has faced the same situation as far as getting that jetter in there main that had a different solution that isnt coming to my mind. i do know mac had mentioned something about a sectional machine, but ive never even heard of one much less seen one. must be an easier way that im just blocking itout and not allowingto enter my brain. hell maybe its the sunup to sundown hours and over night ours ive been working. if anyone has another way that has worked for them. i would appreciate yall sending me a text message. 936-524-6353. i gottaget this done so i can move onto the next fire i gotta put out


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

txdraindoctor said:


> ........... i always always double gasket seal my tanks never once had an issue doing that.


 
WAT
 

You use* two* tank/bowl gaskets?! :surprise:



.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> WAT
> 
> 
> You use* two* tank/bowl gaskets?! :surprise:
> ...


He meant tank bolts, rubber washer on top and another underneath.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> He meant tank bolts, rubber washer on top and another underneath.




Of course, I do the same when there is room.




.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

So I went back today, I looked at what I fixed and it was dry, however there was a tiny leak at the base so I pulled it. Low and behold another hack job, flange a skewed and not screwed into the concrete and wax too thin. The guy apologized at his outburst the night before and said "I'll pay". He apologized again when I handed him the bill. I didn't charge the service call and gave parts at cost.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

@txdraindoctor I won't try and quote it''l take too much space. You have a good point of offering options but I don't have it in a written form like you have. I do offer customers to either repair or replace and the outcome if the repair fails, I tell them they'll have to pay me go replace the failed repair. So it's on them not me. It says in my fine print repairs have no guarantee. It's also why I have a second signature that states without "reserves". I'm at T/M so I can't give out a flat rate prices, I give them an estimate if they ask between the two options.



On another point it's impossible for me to supply fancy toilets or fancy faucets because suppliers only have only 2-3 cheap faucet brand or cheap toilet in stock. Not many carry Moen anymore! You can't order fancy stuff but if it is available 2 weeks to 9 months to get it.

The days of suppliers having better faucets is no longer true, big box stores had the good stuff too for the last 2 decades. Take Moen for example, the Chateau/manor faucet was available in stores and supply houses, the only difference was the nice picture on the box but the same product inside.

If I declined people who supplied their faucets or toilet it would be a serious business loss for me. I would have to buy the same exact faucet at the big box store just like them plus a hefty markup. That right there makes no sense because they'd complain on the heavy price tag because they can compare it out in 10 seconds on the net. Another problem, is how would you keep stock of 200 different types and styles of faucets. People want to choose the style they want so they buy it I install it without any warranty. I do tell them when they haven't bought it yet to buy a specific brand and all others they are throw away and mostly garbage.

Then me supplying toilets is another issue, I have no where to throw them out! I do slip one in the bin once in a while at my supplier when I buy one from them.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

@txdraindoctor As for good deeds a couple weeks ago, I installed a customer supplied faucet but she didn't buy the brand I highly recommended, it broke the first time she used it(winner's thread). I went to take it out for free so she could exchange it. I told her I had to charge her to install the second one(Charged only a half hour and no service call). Then the second one leaked because she bought an open box without realizing it(Boutique/supplier probably parts swapped). I went there again for free.

She referred me to a neighbor the week after and got a job there. It's on a case by case basis.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> @*txdraindoctor* As for good deeds a couple weeks ago, I installed a customer supplied faucet but she didn't buy the brand I highly recommended, it broke the first time she used it(winner's thread). I went to take it out for free so she could exchange it. I told her I had to charge her to install the second one(Charged only a half hour and no service call). Then the second one leaked because she bought an open box without realizing it(Boutique/supplier probably parts swapped). I went there again for free.
> 
> She referred me to a neighbor the week after and got a job there. It's on a case by case basis.





There are some customers where I will drive to their home while on my lunch break. And then there are some customers where I happen to run into more traffic than normal after I am done with lunch.


.


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## txdraindoctor (Aug 14, 2020)

*understood*



Tango said:


> @txdraindoctor I won't try and quote it''l take too much space. You have a good point of offering options but I don't have it in a written form like you have. I do offer customers to either repair or replace and the outcome if the repair fails, I tell them they'll have to pay me go replace the failed repair. So it's on them not me. It says in my fine print repairs have no guarantee. It's also why I have a second signature that states without "reserves". I'm at T/M so I can't give out a flat rate prices, I give them an estimate if they ask between the two options.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i completely understand where youre coming from. sounds like youre from a very rural area where you actually have the opportunity to provide your customers with the level of service that you actually prefer and that they deserve. so let me ask you this, wheres the nearest manufacturers rep. for moen, delta, or mainline faucets and shower fixtures. have you ever possibly considered possibly having them shipped direct from factory. you cant call them yourselves. but your local rep. or the supply houses can email them a PO for delivery. another thing you may want to try, is becoming a distributer through ali baba. sure you have to wait for orders to come in. but they actually have some extremely elegant plumbing fixture for cheap. they dont just look well made, they are well made. do you have a sewer camera? as far a what my pricebook lists i offer 3 different faucets, moen delta and pfister kitchen and lavatory of those three. i offer low, midrange. luxury series. but i only offer them in chrome. toilets vortens gerber or western pottery for my low end standard round front. better toilets mid range vortens elongated, gerber elongated, western elongated. for my best options they are ADA elongated, kholer drake. kholer cimaron and the toto. what i actually hear you saying brother, and dont take this the wrong way, it was once put to me this way also. what i actually hear you doing brother, is believe it or not, you are physically and mentally devaluing not only your craftsmanship, but also yourself. i can tell you mainly did new construction plumbers union more than likely. unions are huge up north. down south we have them but theyre a joke actually. i know in the northern regions they are better managed. let me put it to you like this. first off you dont the same faucet from the same box store. youve got this all backwards. first off no service van has all of that. they usually carry 1 maybe 2 water heaters depending on the size of the van typically its a 50 and 40 gas or 1 gas and 1 elec. a few faucets. 1-3 a disposal. usually some bio one, bio ben, bio choice. some home inspection sheets. really and truly pick out 3 ofyour favorite faucets and keep those in stock stick with chrome. always keep you some catalog books. moen, delta kholer. frankly i think anyone who tries to sale a home depot faucet to a customer at a markup is plumb crazy. thats why you need a real plumbers grade fixture not those mickey mouse products homedepot sells. honestly vendors usually dont care if you dump stuff like that in the trash. as long as continue to buy


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

txdraindoctor said:


> i completely understand where youre coming from. sounds like youre from a very rural area where you actually have the opportunity to provide your customers with the level of service that you actually prefer and that they deserve. so let me ask you this, wheres the nearest manufacturers rep. for moen, delta, or mainline faucets and shower fixtures. have you ever possibly considered possibly having them shipped direct from factory. you cant call them yourselves. but your local rep. or the supply houses can email them a PO for delivery. another thing you may want to try, is becoming a distributer through ali baba. sure you have to wait for orders to come in. but they actually have some extremely elegant plumbing fixture for cheap. they dont just look well made, they are well made. do you have a sewer camera? as far a what my pricebook lists i offer 3 different faucets, moen delta and pfister kitchen and lavatory of those three. i offer low, midrange. luxury series. but i only offer them in chrome. toilets vortens gerber or western pottery for my low end standard round front. better toilets mid range vortens elongated, gerber elongated, western elongated. for my best options they are ADA elongated, kholer drake. kholer cimaron and the toto. what i actually hear you saying brother, and dont take this the wrong way, it was once put to me this way also. what i actually hear you doing brother, is believe it or not, you are physically and mentally devaluing not only your craftsmanship, but also yourself. i can tell you mainly did new construction plumbers union more than likely. unions are huge up north. down south we have them but theyre a joke actually. i know in the northern regions they are better managed. let me put it to you like this. first off you dont the same faucet from the same box store. youve got this all backwards. first off no service van has all of that. they usually carry 1 maybe 2 water heaters depending on the size of the van typically its a 50 and 40 gas or 1 gas and 1 elec. a few faucets. 1-3 a disposal. usually some bio one, bio ben, bio choice. some home inspection sheets. really and truly pick out 3 ofyour favorite faucets and keep those in stock stick with chrome. always keep you some catalog books. moen, delta kholer. frankly i think anyone who tries to sale a home depot faucet to a customer at a markup is plumb crazy. thats why you need a real plumbers grade fixture not those mickey mouse products homedepot sells. honestly vendors usually dont care if you dump stuff like that in the trash. as long as continue to buy



Don't get me wrong you have good advice and excellent ideas and I take those into consideration. However our way of life and culture is different. For example you talk about the Union being a joke. Here in our province everything that generates a revenue is Union by LAW and is mandatory by Law, it even has an "ministry entity" to regulate and watch over(new construction, any commercial, institutional, industrial, rentals like apartment and condos etc). The government obliges everyone to be in it. The union used to be strong and good to me most of the time until the government changed the law.


*Your idea of getting faucet direct from factory is a good idea I'll look into it*. I do it already for faucet parts however I have to fight 1 manufacturers in particular to get parts every single time. I have to threaten to rip their stuff out and install moen because I can get parts from them. For delta forget about it, they are on their way out, no one really sells them anymore, parts are almost nearly impossible to get and sometimes they sell them higher than the price of new faucet in some cases.

I live in a big city and cheap stuff, cheap prices are king. Even the rich mostly buy the cheapest faucet they can get. I did create a niche in between that. I do carry 3 different faucets in the truck and in 3 years I've only sold one nice one but it's not even fancy because they had just sold their house and made a 75-100K profit or something and had to have it replaced for the buyer. The other times people chose the least expensive because they didn't care what it was. I'd say when people call me 90%+ of the time people already have purchased their faucet or toilet. They want it done now, not tomorrow because they are in a hurry and will call someone else.


As a side note I do have 2 cameras, it's a total bust PLUS I don't want to get involved into digging. I spoke to another plumber too, it's a bust for him as well. Garbage disposals are non existant here.


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## txdraindoctor (Aug 14, 2020)

*Response*



skoronesa said:


> WAT
> 
> 
> You use* two* tank/bowl gaskets?! :surprise:
> ...


i didnt say 2 tank/bowl gasket i said i always double gasket seal my tanks. lol
rubber gasket inside tank as usual, then on bottom of tank, rubber gasket, metal washer, and nut. set your tank and mount tank to the bowl.


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## txdraindoctor (Aug 14, 2020)

what i meant by the union beinga joke was here in the southern part of the united states,
especially here in texas. in texas theres a local union but i will tell one thing for sure, they dont take care of their plumbers and pipefitters now back in the day like up until around the 80s according to some of the ole timers and my godfather the union was strong, here and was 100% totally different than it now. prime example. everyone knows how detroit michigan used to be automotive powerhouse and a thriving city. then bust housing market fell never bounced back, and the automakers soon to follow. well that. and now they cant even give a house away. well thats how the union is here. now chicago, pensylvania, new york all those northern states. i know have a good and strong union. and yes i do believe all this has to do with government over regulating. **** went to hell in a hand basket after reagan. you dont need camera for disposal jobs. not to mention, you dont have to dig, sub out the excavation part all you do is lay the line they come back and cover it up after inspection.
cameras are excellent when it comes to root breaks, bellies in the line causing solids to build up and eventually stop up the customers home, as well as when fernco couplings shift and cause the connection to become offset from one another. you wanna know why its a bust. im willing to bet that yall are all thinking the same way instead of thinking outside the box. on average how many stoppages do you run a day or a week?


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## txdraindoctor (Aug 14, 2020)

Went to a sonic drive in todayon order to install a new toilet. The old kholer toilet was installed aprrox. 16-18 years ago. Thats how long ive been servicing this owners sonics he owns 33-44 if i remember correctly. Somehow the tank had cranked as well as the bowl where the bolt holes are. If you ask me, i think someone is banging the closing manager how else is that gonna happen. Anyways i pull the toilet and i be damned the temporary lead stub and flangei did still there. Dry as a bone and not a single spec of corrosion. I specifically remember this repair. Because that day i had went to every supply house in town looking for a deep collar brass flange. Noone had any called a few others that were within a 30-45 minute drive away no luck. This was around the time there was a shortage on copper and brass. Still not sure why though. Long story short. I did what a had to do as a temporary fix to set the toilet. So tonight im thinkingto myself, hmmm technically this isnt a correct transition. But damn it outlasted a typical brass and lead sweat connection. Personally i think that baby probably has another 20 yrs on her atleast. So yeah i left it as is. What would you guys have done. Im wondering why i never got sent back out to properly fix it once the company got their shipment of brass rings in. Ihave to admit though i have never been a fan of gerber toilets, but i was actually impressed with this particular toilets flushing capability. I will admit one thing though. I am so glad these damn toilet manufactures finally got their sh#t together with coming out with new water conversative toilets. I still remember how much of a damn headache it was in the early 2000s im thinking around 03-04 somewhere in that area i believe. When the epa or whoever comesup with to dumb idea to use less water to flush a toilet with solid waste material. Yes all i can remember is having about 20-30 clogged toilet calls a week if not more. We all had a hand auger anda nice little piece of paper tellingthem to use less tissue. Nowhow did we saveany water on that go round when customers still had to flush 2-3 times. I soon learned that the tanks atthe time still held the same amount of water back then so i began telling them to just holddown the handle until it flushed. Instead why dont we just recycle our minor fixture water to irrigate our yards intead fresh clean potable water. Just my opinion.


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## txdraindoctor (Aug 14, 2020)

So thursday i get a call not hot/cold water pipe had ruptured inside home. Collected 150 before i hung up phone and they e-signed. The invoice via text message aproving the 150 plus the estimate of 400. Yes i did ask all the pertenant questions where i knew it would run above that to fix cpvc water line break inside wall already exposed at shower valve. So pretty much its gonna be only a few select fittings all ofwhich i have on my van. Ran pre authoriazation for the 400 they also responded with approved but toldthem not to sign until complete. Now if any of have heard the term of a tweaker well this one takes the cake. Walk in, pilos on the table, smoking hydro from a bong and the dude and his with just couldnt stay still. In the adjacent room that must have been his tweeker room because there were a sh&t-ton of electronic items among other stuff literally taken apart parts everywhere. Somehow during his peak moments of tweeking he managed to getthem apart but i guess he failed to take photos during the process so he could figure out how to put them back together. Which explains why theyre still strewn all across the room. Little did i know what he was about to show me. Yep you guessed the dumbass tweeked out on his all plastic run of the mill under $30 garden tub faucet. Aparently he was trying to tie onto it and create shower out of the garden tub, by adding a showerhead connected to a 1/2 plastic female barbed adapter joined together by hose clamps even had a nice little hole knocked out for showerhead smdh. Im not gonna lie i actually laughed. And asked did you seriously tweek on your bathroom fixture. He laughed and said his wife wanted a handheld shower. And he brings out this 1/2 blue home depot pex piping. With another with a barbed 90 and a tee 1/2 cpvc. He was going tie it onto the 1/2 hot then tie into cold. Both using a tee. The bring those together at his homemade handheld shower with a tee. I closed my eyes and when i visualized him presurizing the home all i could see washim tweeking out runnning all over the place because it looks like a sprinkler system inside his home and he cant figure out why his handheld wont turn off and the faucet. Not realizing he tied into the line before the tub faucet. Visualizing that actually gave me a huge smile full of laughter on the inside. Told him look this tub isnt designed to be made into a shower. No side walls for stop water from getting all over the floor. And no where to put up a shower rod, this is one of corner garden tubs. Anyways i politely informed him ofhow stuid of an idea this was. He actually agree and laughed. I told hime i would do a temporary fix just so they couldhave water on the house. But i did it using female adapters and plugs. Along with (2) 1/2 female ball valves. So he shut off water there, remove plugs, and connect new faucet when he got a new one. This story i decided to name

tweekers gone wild!!!!


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## txdraindoctor (Aug 14, 2020)

*Tweekers gone wild*

So thursday i get a call not hot/cold water pipe had ruptured inside home. Collected 150 before i hung up phone and they e-signed. The invoice via text message aproving the 150 plus the estimate of 400. Yes i did ask all the pertenant questions where i knew it would run above that to fix cpvc water line break inside wall already exposed at shower valve. So pretty much its gonna be only a few select fittings all ofwhich i have on my van. Ran pre authoriazation for the 400 they also responded with approved but toldthem not to sign until complete. Now if any of have heard the term of a tweaker well this one takes the cake. Walk in, pilos on the table, smoking hydro from a bong and the dude and his with just couldnt stay still. In the adjacent room that must have been his tweeker room because there were a sh&t-ton of electronic items among other stuff literally taken apart parts everywhere. Somehow during his peak moments of tweeking he managed to getthem apart but i guess he failed to take photos during the process so he could figure out how to put them back together. Which explains why theyre still strewn all across the room. Little did i know what he was about to show me. Yep you guessed the dumbass tweeked out on his all plastic run of the mill under $30 garden tub faucet. Aparently he was trying to tie onto it and create shower out of the garden tub, by adding a showerhead connected to a 1/2 female barbed adapter joined together by hose clamps even had a nice little hole knocked out for showerhead smdh. Im not gonna lie i actually laughed. And asked did you seriously tweek on your bathroom fixture. He laughed and said his wife wanted a handheld shower. And he brings out this 1/2 blue home depot pex piping. With another with a barbed 90 and a tee 1/2 cpvc. He was going tie it onto the 1/2 hot then tie into cold. Both using a tee. The bring those together at his homemade handheld shower with a tee. I closed my eyes and when i visualized him presurizing the home all i could see washim tweeking out runnning all over the place because it looks like a sprinkler system inside his home and he cant figure out why his handheld wont turn off and the faucet. Not realizing he tied into the line before the tub faucet. Visualizing that actually gave me a huge smile full of laughter on the inside. Told him look this tub isnt designed to be made into a shower. No side walls for stop water from getting all over the floor. And no where to put up a shower rod, this is one of corner garden tubs. Anyways i politely informed him ofhow stuid of an idea this was. He actually agree and laughed. I told hime i would do a temporary fix just so they couldhave water on the house. But i did it using female adapters and plugs. Along with (2) 1/2 female ball valves. So he shut off water there, remove plugs, and connect new faucet when he got a new one. This story i decided to name

tweekers gone wild!!!!


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