# Longest Tankless Install in History



## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

I just put the paint on this afternoon. Did the final coat of stucco yesterday and every time I do stucco work I'm reminded of how much I hate it. I installed this heater about 18 months ago.  This is at my own house so the customer was pretty understanding. :whistling2: After I get some more stucco patching done around a window on the other side of the back door, I'll paint the entire wall of the house, trim out the door and window and I'll be officially done. 
























Paul


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

I had an artist paint/airbrush one of those recess boxes, when she was done you couldnt tell the box was there. The house had natural stonework so the box really stood out. The artist only cost 150 bucks, now that I'm reflecting on the job I did, I wonder if the paint is still lookin good? I suppose ever couple of years you would hafta touch-up the paint job,,,anyway looks good


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Nice work !


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

You gotta ease into these things!:thumbsup:


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## Jae (Jan 22, 2010)

*Nice Job*

Looks Good Paul! We've got some projects that were started several years ago...really easin' into them I guess. Greenplum reminded me of one we saw painted a few years ago. Home Owner had a tatoo artist paint it up like a doggie door with a rottweiler charging out of it. From the driveway it looked real enough in a 3D way that we just sat in the truck till he came out of the house. You must live in an area with soft water to put this in in such a permanent way.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

Looks good, I havent done many tankless . Never did one flush to the wall. What was there a dead space? They dont make one that fits inside a stud bay do they? Like a wall furnace?


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

jeffreyplumber said:


> Looks good, I havent done many tankless . Never did one flush to the wall. What was there a dead space? They dont make one that fits inside a stud bay do they? Like a wall furnace?


 
No, there isn't any way to get these in a regular 2x4 or 2x6 wall. I framed up a deeper wall to house the box. I think the wall is 14" deep now to house the whole shebang. I'll snap a pic of the back side so you can see how it's all put together. Above the heater, in the dead space, is my Metlund pump behind a removeable panel.




Paul


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Mine is coming very soon. The kids ran all 40 gallons of the hot water this evening. I really wanted a shower bad, had to wait an xtra 30min for the ol braddy ****** 40gl tall boy to heat that shiot up for me. Propane rinnai coming soon to a PZ member near you.:laughing:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

what's that going to cost? (tank, pipe, regs, heater)



ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Mine is coming very soon. The kids ran all 40 gallons of the hot water this evening. I really wanted a shower bad, had to wait an xtra 30min for the ol braddy ****** 40gl tall boy to heat that shiot up for me. Propane rinnai coming soon to a PZ member near you.:laughing:


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Protech said:


> what's that going to cost? (tank, pipe, regs, heater)



Dunno yet.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Protech said:


> what's that going to cost? (tank, pipe, regs, heater)



Bought my Noritz today. Would post a pic, bui I dont feel like looking for my camera. I bought a N-0751m. Got it for $645.00 out the door at Ferguson's. Now, I am shopping propane companies in town. 

Has anyone ever tried Tying a Tankless water heater hot line into an existing Tank type water heater? Where I am going to put this Noritz will be backed right up to my Existing tank heater in the garage. Just thought about that one. It could be a storage type tank, and just keep the old 40 gallon turned on to keep the temp up if it is a loss. Maybe add a timer, that way it is only heateing the water during the times i need it to. I dunno, the more I think about it, the more I think it would be a waste.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

The reason I asked is by the time you have your tank and lines installed and your tank filled, and buy the heater and venting you be almost as high as the solar equipment for a solar system.

Think about it............



ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Bought my Noritz today. Would post a pic, bui I dont feel like looking for my camera. I bought a N-0751m. Got it for $645.00 out the door at Ferguson's. Now, I am shopping propane companies in town.
> 
> Has anyone ever tried Tying a Tankless water heater hot line into an existing Tank type water heater? Where I am going to put this Noritz will be backed right up to my Existing tank heater in the garage. Just thought about that one. It could be a storage type tank, and just keep the old 40 gallon turned on to keep the temp up if it is a loss. Maybe add a timer, that way it is only heateing the water during the times i need it to. I dunno, the more I think about it, the more I think it would be a waste.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Nah, ill be looking at about 1500 out the door once its done. Then the cost of the gas. 100lb tank, wonder how long that would last. How many BTUs can one gallon burn, and for how long?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

a year tops.



ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Nah, ill be looking at about 1500 out the door once its done. Then the cost of the gas. 100lb tank, wonder how long that would last. How many BTUs can one gallon burn, and for how long?


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

That's a DAMN good price for that unit. Wow....


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Tankless said:


> That's a DAMN good price for that unit. Wow....



you bet your ass it is. I got my hookup at Fergys here. ALL i had to say is, Mr. _____, It's for my personal ****.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

What will the annual operating cost be for that heater?



ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Nah, ill be looking at about 1500 out the door once its done. Then the cost of the gas. 100lb tank, wonder how long that would last. How many BTUs can one gallon burn, and for how long?


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Heres a pic of the sweet puppy. Says, it cost $323.00 to operate.

















:rockon:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Those estimates are pretty wild. How do they kow what you are paying per gallon for propane? You do relize propane fluctuates right with gasoline as they are both derived from crude oil? Propane heaters are only slightly cheaper to run than electrical heaters in FL and if gas goes back up again, propane will follow. It's conceivable that you could actually pay MORE with that propane heater at a later date than you currently are with your electrical one. Electricity prices do not follow oil prices around here. If oil goes up again you will be paying more than you are now.

Something to think about. The cost of tankless natural gas is one thing, propane is another.........





ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Heres a pic of the sweet puppy. Says, it cost $323.00 to operate.
> 
> :rockon:


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Protech said:


> Those estimates are pretty wild. How do they kow what you are paying per gallon for propane? You do relize propane fluctuates right with gasoline as they are both derived from crude oil? Propane heaters are only slightly cheaper to run than electrical heaters in FL and if gas goes back up again, propane will follow. It's conceivable that you could actually pay MORE with that propane heater at a later date than you currently are with your electrical one. Electricity prices do not follow oil prices around here. If oil goes up again you will be paying more than you are now.
> 
> Something to think about. The cost of tankless natural gas is one thing, propane is another.........


I dont mean to sound arrogant here, Cause, your one of my "boys" on here Ken, but, I dont care what it cost, I just want the peace of mind, that when i get in the shower, the damn water will be hot.:yes:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I hope it work out that way for you :thumbsup:


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## gusty60 (Oct 21, 2008)

Protech said:


> Those estimates are pretty wild. How do they kow what you are paying per gallon for propane? You do relize propane fluctuates right with gasoline as they are both derived from crude oil? Propane heaters are only slightly cheaper to run than electrical heaters in FL and if gas goes back up again, propane will follow. It's conceivable that you could actually pay MORE with that propane heater at a later date than you currently are with your electrical one. Electricity prices do not follow oil prices around here. If oil goes up again you will be paying more than you are now.
> 
> Something to think about. The cost of tankless natural gas is one thing, propane is another.........


Solar is the same price year round.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Actually, no. Most systems do consume a little power in the winter time. Not much though. A you move further and further north it becomes a higher fraction of the total fuel source though.



gusty60 said:


> Solar is the same price year round.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

My gas bill is about 25-35% less than it was with the old tanked heater. My oldest takes hr. long showers, my little one, about 10 min max. Wife...maybe 15 min. Me, usually about 10-15.....depends on how stressed I am that particular moment. I jetted the shower head and I get 3.1 gpm out of it.....All the expense of going tankless is forgotten with 3.1 gpm raining on you.

There was NOTHING worse than installing a tankless all day long, and coming home filthy and exhausted and having to wait an hour for that POS tank to recover. I didn't even fill out the warranty or rebate info...I was just happy to finally have one. I have since sold my original one and bought a newer one....I'm waiting for the condensing outdoor version next! 3.1 gpm baby....happiest part of my day.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I've got dual 2.5gpm heads in my shower. Solar powered. The only time I run out is if the weather has sucked for a few days and the wife is doing several loads of dishes. 80gallons of 200F water is a whole lot of heat for just 2 people and then you still have to out run the electrical backup.

I wish I had got the 120 gallon setup with 2 40sqft collectors though.

I'm a 1/2 hour shower person. I usually just stand there and let the heat loosen up my back muscle for the first 15 min so that I feel human again.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

I may have propane delivered to my 150 gallon tank once a year for my Rinaii. Best thing since sliced bread.
It also serves my fire log in the den.
I use more propane in my other tank for my shop than that one. I have a patio heater out there that I use every night. There is also a gas range. I can also use my quick connect for my fish cooker. We cook out there a lot.
I will soon have ethernet out there also as my wireless router signal is null from the house.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

You can get tax credit for installing that unit.
I havent done too many tankless heaters. Everything Ive seen is you save some on energy avg 80 dollars a year and about 20 years to pay for itself. I think you got to want a tankless for some other reason than just to save money. That was Consumer Reports. Of course we dont pay labor or retail prices. So that makes a big differance than if we had to pay someone to do it


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Welp, here is the progress. Did all of this after church this morning, finished up just in time for the super bowl. I know I was going to use sharkbites for the install, but did not have enough to build the install kit i built for it. Gas tank and line will be deliverd and installed tomorrow.:thumbup: :rockon:

ALWAYS HOT.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

inside model, outside ? gas union?


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

GREENPLUM said:


> inside model, outside ? gas union?


This unit can be mounted indoor or out. The exhaust vent for the top should be in soon. (I hope)


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

does anyone know what it costs to get an lp tank in the yard and fill it


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## rex (Jun 13, 2008)

are thoes apollo ball valves?


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## rex (Jun 13, 2008)

house plumber said:


> does anyone know what it costs to get an lp tank in the yard and fill it


 
tank set and 200 gallon min fill 440.00 thats in michigan 2 weeks ago


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

IM getting a 100gallon tank set, lines ran, and tank topped off for 405.00$$ Propane is apparently 3.63 a gallon right now.

Renting the tank at 42.50 a year.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

So roughly a 3.47 year payback time in theory.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Protech said:


> So roughly a 3.47 year payback time in theory.



My total cost to get this thing going, - the cost of fuel will be 1,148.00


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Yeah, that's about what I plugged in to get that #. I used $1250.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Protech said:


> Yeah, that's about what I plugged in to get that #. I used $1250.



Pass or fail?


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

Is that a 1/2" t&p?








Paul


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Pass or fail?


What would it cost you to pay a plumber to come replace a tanked heater? THAN look at your numbers. 

RSP.....NO ROMEX IN CONDUIT, please.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Tankless said:


> What would it cost you to pay a plumber to come replace a tanked heater? THAN look at your numbers.
> 
> RSP.....NO ROMEX IN CONDUIT, please.


Huh? Im lost on that one? explain and why, im all for learning buddy. BTW, i couldn't believe the cost of that VC-3.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

rocksteady said:


> Is that a 1/2" t&p?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Uh Huh.:blink:


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Uh Huh.:blink:


Shame shame. Now choke yourself. Lean forward and choke yourself!!!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8Nf1MK7lts#t=4m21s


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Huh? Im lost on that one? explain and why, im all for learning buddy. BTW, i couldn't believe the cost of that VC-3.


 
Should have been around 100 bucks I think. That shyit is really expensive.

Romex, you have it ran through the flex between the snap switch and the unit as your means of disconnect, which is correct. But the style of wire inside that flex is wrong. You want THHN or the like. Code reads no romex inside conduit. Rigid, EMT, PVC or any kind of conduit shall not have romex within. Is it a big deal? God no, just one simple rule. Has to do with the romex and moisture. Go to your fav box store and buy a yard of 14 gauge white - black - and green :thumbsup:


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

No, I mean I thought it was reasonable, i was thinking it was going to be in the 2-3 hundred range. Wuts wrong with the 1/2" t&P? Should be fine for the size of the water heater.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

http://www.designerplumbing.com/store/NORITZ07.html

This is a cheap price.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> No, I mean I thought it was reasonable, i was thinking it was going to be in the 2-3 hundred range. Wuts wrong with the 1/2" t&P? Should be fine for the size of the water heater.


 
This is a rare one because it isn't something that's ever come up for me so I've never had to consider it. Just seems wrong.

According to UPC (and I'm sure IPC as well), a discharge line from a t&p can't decrease in size. The t&p you used looks like it has 1/2" male threads but has 3/4" female threads. So, you'll have a full size 3/4" discharge line and you've got a 1/2" line feeding it, so no decrease in size there. I don't know if this specifically is mentioned in the code but I'd use a regular 3/4" valve instead so it's all full size. It seems like the t&p should be fed with the same size pipe as the fixture it's serving. Capiche? 





Paul


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It's an electrician thing. You would normally not run NM cable(romex) in conduit. THHN conductors are usually used in that situation instead of NM cable. Between you, me and the rest on PZ it will work just fine though.

Conductors are de-rated when they are bundled or encased. In theory, by having them encased in an NM sheath and then inside of conduit they are over insulated and could over heat. Like I said though, I wouldn't let it keep me up at night.



ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Huh? Im lost on that one? explain and why, im all for learning buddy. BTW, i couldn't believe the cost of that VC-3.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Gas man came today. Stupid SOB was suppost to call me before he got here. WIfe came home from picking up kids from school, and saw that the gas man had already set the tank, dug and ran the line, and was making his connections. Problem was, HE WAS SUPPOST TO CALL ME FIRST. had the tank in plain view of the drive way, blockin the gate to the back yard. Wife told him, um, sir, that can go there, its suppost to go in the back yard. 

Wife said the guy started mumblin, grabbed a bunch of **** off the tank, and threw it accross the driveway. SHe said she just looked at him and said, um kay. Went inside and called RSP.

RSP called the gas company, and asked what the hell was going on , and why i was not called first. Secratary said it was her fault, she told him to stick the tank whereever. After that, i bit my tounge about the guys attitude, called the wife, talked to the guy, had a $20.00 tip waiting on him when he was throught.

I know where that guys aggression came from, we have all been there many times, boss's or secratarys screwin something up, causeing more work for us in the feild. Plus, I know how I would feel if I knew one of my guys acted like that in the feild, in front of a female customer holding a baby no less.

Dont worry gas man, I forgive you. Oh, and the NORTITZ IS FREAKIN AWESOME.

have a date with the shower in about an hr, may take a nice long one.:thumbup:


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

So here's a little tip I tell my clients to put a smile on their face when I am either selling the system or showing them how everything works. The remote, I set mine at 125, that gives me about an 85-15 for hot and cold. However if my kid is taking too long I just start dropping the temp until she gets the hint to get her butt out. Sometimes she will tough it out at 110, then I just hit power and go about my day!! Works well, BUT....careful who you tell that to, they can do it right back to you. You will notice over the next week(s) the subtle differences between tanked and tankless...not bad, just a little different. Depending on your house pressure you may notice little temp fluxuations when a WC is flushed or someone runs a lav. The unit you got has that nice little blue Energy Star sticker on it. The units don't respond as fast as they used to, to this sort of thing. It is a software reprogram that makes the unit more gradual in temp compensations and adjustments but a requirement for that little blue sticker. It is what it is and all of them are like that now.

Put a little bit of greese on the two SS screws that attach the vent cap (VC-4) on there. Should you ever need to pull the cap to inspect the heat exchanger those screws freeze up good and it's a total PITA to get them out.

It is nice knowing that no matter how many loads of laundry have been done or if the DW is going, you have as much hot water as you want.

Whatever your water hardness is, keep the grains below 10 and you won't need to service it for a good two years. Enjoy!


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

For the record, this is hands down one of my most favorite parts to a movie.

"Well any F-ing time sweetheart" :laughing:




Tankless said:


> Shame shame. Now choke yourself. Lean forward and choke yourself!!!
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8Nf1MK7lts#t=4m21s


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Tankless said:


> So here's a little tip I tell my clients to put a smile on their face when I am either selling the system or showing them how everything works. The remote, I set mine at 125, that gives me about an 85-15 for hot and cold. However if my kid is taking too long I just start dropping the temp until she gets the hint to get her butt out. Sometimes she will tough it out at 110, then I just hit power and go about my day!! Works well, BUT....careful who you tell that to, they can do it right back to you. You will notice over the next week(s) the subtle differences between tanked and tankless...not bad, just a little different. Depending on your house pressure you may notice little temp fluxuations when a WC is flushed or someone runs a lav. The unit you got has that nice little blue Energy Star sticker on it. The units don't respond as fast as they used to, to this sort of thing. It is a software reprogram that makes the unit more gradual in temp compensations and adjustments but a requirement for that little blue sticker. It is what it is and all of them are like that now.
> 
> Put a little bit of greese on the two SS screws that attach the vent cap (VC-4) on there. Should you ever need to pull the cap to inspect the heat exchanger those screws freeze up good and it's a total PITA to get them out.
> 
> ...


I noticed in the shower tonight, the hot water felt Cleaner than anyshower i have ever had. If you catch what I mean about cleaner, not as hard. not that milky white color that tanked hot water looks like in a glass. Maintained tempature flawlessly. Was not adjusting the valve every few minutes to make up temp loss. having one of my own to use and experience will really boost some more of my knowledge of the product when explaining the benifits to a potential cusotmer.:thumbup:


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Tankless said:


> For the record, this is hands down one of my most favorite parts to a movie.
> 
> "Well any F-ing time sweetheart" :laughing:


Sims and I quote that movie constantly at work.:laughing:


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> I noticed in the shower tonight, the hot water felt Cleaner than anyshower i have ever had. If you catch what I mean about cleaner, not as hard. not that milky white color that tanked hot water looks like in a glass. Maintained tempature flawlessly. Was not adjusting the valve every few minutes to make up temp loss. having one of my own to use and experience will really boost some more of my knowledge of the product when explaining the benifits to a potential cusotmer.:thumbup:


You are experiencing a big difference with this. When the water is heated in the exchanger the calcium solidifies. Two things cause this....the temp and the hardness or amount of calcium in the water. With a softener the calcium is attracted to the resin in a sodium ion exchange thus resulting in a very low or zero count of calcium. Tankless heat exchangers and servo valves like this, a lot. In a tanked heater the same thing happends BUT that now solidified calcium falls to the bottom of the tank and starts rotting it out. I don't know if it's the erosion or the just the calcium eating away at the steel but the net result is the same.

A good test to see if you have really hard water (other than testing) is crank up your heater to like 140-150 and run hot water out of a lav for 5 - 10 min. Pull the screen and look for NEW deposits. Drop the temp back down to 120 and do the same, look for a difference in deposits.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

There is very little calcium in our water in this part of town. I know this because I maintain my mother in laws pool, and are constantly having to add Calcium to it to keep the Ph levels and wut not. Also, drained my braddy ******, and not one single chip of calcium was present in the tank.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

WTF!?!? :001_huh:

You wanna run that by me again?



ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> I noticed in the shower tonight, the hot water felt Cleaner than anyshower i have ever had. If you catch what I mean about cleaner, not as hard. not that milky white color that tanked hot water looks like in a glass. Maintained tempature flawlessly. Was not adjusting the valve every few minutes to make up temp loss. having one of my own to use and experience will really boost some more of my knowledge of the product when explaining the benifits to a potential cusotmer.:thumbup:


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Protech said:


> WTF!?!? :001_huh:
> 
> You wanna run that by me again?



Wut, wutta i say? You talkun to me?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Again, what in the world are you talking about?!?!

Ion exchange resin remove ions from the water via a single displacement reaction. Calcium scale forming on a heat exchanger is due to ions with a negative solubility constant crashing out of solution and forming crystals on seed surfaces. They are in no way the same. In fact, the fact was designed to prevent the second.

This thread just turned into a tankless water heater cult ritual or something........



Tankless said:


> You are experiencing a big difference with this. When the water is heated in the exchanger the calcium solidifies. Two things cause this....the temp and the hardness or amount of calcium in the water. With a softener the calcium is attracted to the resin in a sodium ion exchange thus resulting in a very low or zero count of calcium. Tankless heat exchangers and servo valves like this, a lot. In a tanked heater the same thing happends BUT that now solidified calcium falls to the bottom of the tank and starts rotting it out. I don't know if it's the erosion or the just the calcium eating away at the steel but the net result is the same.
> 
> A good test to see if you have really hard water (other than testing) is crank up your heater to like 140-150 and run hot water out of a lav for 5 - 10 min. Pull the screen and look for NEW deposits. Drop the temp back down to 120 and do the same, look for a difference in deposits.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

My first question is how the water out of a heater exchanger is "cleaner" than out of a tank?

My second question is how does a tanked water heater have temperature fluctuations? I think you have it backwards. It's the tankless heater that has temperature fluctuations, not the tanked heater.



ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Wut, wutta i say? You talkun to me?


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Of all people on here I would assume you would understand a simple Ion exchange softener....no? I can splain it again Lucy

Oh wait, I forgot, you hate tankless. Maybe we can get some solar mixed into this one!




Protech said:


> Again, what in the world are you talking about?!?!
> 
> Ion exchange resin remove ions from the water via a single displacement reaction. Calcium scale forming on a heat exchanger is due to ions with a negative solubility constant crashing out of solution and forming crystals on seed surfaces. They are in no way the same. In fact, the fact was designed to prevent the second.
> 
> This thread just turned into a tankless water heater cult ritual or something........


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

The rockstar plumber is imagining things are cleaner. He had to readjust the temp hotter to compensate for the tanks gradual decrease in temp as t runs out of hot. Bottom line is the rockstar had a tank heater that was too small for the demand.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

*uhhh*

I am so amazed at the wisdom


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Please do, since you know so much about it. 



Tankless said:


> Of all people on here I would assume you would understand a simple Ion exchange softener....no? I can splain it again Lucy
> 
> Oh wait, I forgot, you hate tankless. Maybe we can get some solar mixed into this one!


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

That would apply for that last 5 minutes as you start to run out of water, not the first 15.



TheMaster said:


> The rockstar plumber is imagining things are cleaner. He had to readjust the temp hotter to compensate for the tanks gradual decrease in temp as t runs out of hot. Bottom line is the rockstar had a tank heater that was too small for the demand.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

I think we are talking about two different things. All's I was saying is that heat exchangers and servo valves like soft water. As for the rest of what you described, that's not how I explain it to customers




Protech said:


> Again, what in the world are you talking about?!?!
> 
> Ion exchange resin remove ions from the water via a single displacement reaction. Calcium scale forming on a heat exchanger is due to ions with a negative solubility constant crashing out of solution and forming crystals on seed surfaces. They are in no way the same. In fact, the fact was designed to prevent the second.
> 
> This thread just turned into a tankless water heater cult ritual or something........


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

The only similarity between the two is that they both collect calcium.

But they do so at different rates and by totally different chemical reactions. Further, A tankless heater will precipitate the same amount of calcium carbonate out as a tanked unit.


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