# A question of morals



## dankman (Nov 19, 2009)

I did some subcontracting in Oct. just after going on my own for a less than savory HVAC guy (we'll call him Todd) that never paid me, it was rehab work that I agreed to accept next to nothing for because I was hungry for work and had to keep busy. I had known Todd for a while and while I thought he was a bit shady I didn't think he was the kind of guy that would just screw me over, that was until 3 weeks had passed and I heard nothing from him and a bunch from other guys I worked with in the past that he never paid (the owner of the property ditched out on his bill so he felt it was OK to do the same to them). Luckily for me Todd left an old Ridgid 270 power vise and an oiler with me to run some gas pipe (he originally told me to have cutting and threading done at a supply house but I insisted he bring me a threader because I would be cutting 25-30 joints) so the work I did wasn't a total loss. I tried calling Todd several times in the month afterward with no response after leaving messages in a polite manner, I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

Recently (Christmas Eve) this guy has started to call me "wanting to pay me" when in reality I know he's come to the realization that he can't buy a new threading set up for the amount he owes me and needs his power vise for a job. The problem is I've started to really like the 270, I would be happy to buy one new.

Between myself and the other guys I know he's screwed he owes about $3500; I was thinking about telling him he needs to pay the other guys he owes first prior to paying me if he wants his tools back because he's owed them for a much longer time than he's owed me, I just don't want to seem as shady as him. 

What would you do in my shoes? Accept payment for myself and give him his tools or demand payment for the other guys who have helped me out a lot in the past? Ignore him and enjoy my power vise for years to come?


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

I would keep the tools. Next time he'll be wise and make sure that there will be no tools on the job that they can't hold for ransom. It's nice of you to think of the other guys, but do you think the other guys would think of you? Anyway, keep the tools. You earned them and possibly taught him a lesson.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I would get my money, in hand and release the hostage.


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## waldrop (Dec 18, 2009)

*get cash*

i would call him back & set up a meeting to get cash that he owes you and give him his tools back your luckiy that he needs them ,did you say HO didn"t pay todd .it is between you & him anyway


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I would get my money and then go to the office and get the threader....dont go meet him to get your money WITH the threader. He might have the cops waiting with him and a receipt to that threader. Fat chance but I know some guys who would do that.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

I would have thoughts of the same, but leave the other guys out of it. That's between Todd and them.

Get your money in hand before giving him back his tools.

Don't play games and stoop to his level. spell it out what you expect. just cuz he's a shady mofo doesn't mean you gotta be one, too.


Good luck.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

It sounds like what you are trying to do is what is called "self-help" which is illegal and you could get yourself in trouble. Make arrangements to meet the guy so he can pay you and you can return his tools. In Ohio you could be found guilty of felony in the fifth degree. So morals aside, what is that 270 power vice worth to you?

Mark


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> It sounds like what you are trying to do is what is called "self-help" which is illegal and you could get yourself in trouble. Make arrangements to meet the guy so he can pay you and you can return his tools. In Ohio you could be found guilty of felony in the fifth degree. So morals aside, what is that 270 power vice worth to you?
> 
> Mark


My story would be he gave me the threader as payment for the job but I gave him the option to buy it back at the original contract price...since I'm a nice guy.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

dankman said:


> I did some subcontracting in Oct. just after going on my own for a less than savory HVAC guy (we'll call him Todd) that never paid me, it was rehab work that I agreed to accept next to nothing for because I was hungry for work and had to keep busy. I had known Todd for a while and while I thought he was a bit shady I didn't think he was the kind of guy that would just screw me over, that was until 3 weeks had passed and I heard nothing from him and a bunch from other guys I worked with in the past that he never paid (the owner of the property ditched out on his bill so he felt it was OK to do the same to them). Luckily for me Todd left an old Ridgid 270 power vise and an oiler with me to run some gas pipe (he originally told me to have cutting and threading done at a supply house but I insisted he bring me a threader because I would be cutting 25-30 joints) so the work I did wasn't a total loss. I tried calling Todd several times in the month afterward with no response after leaving messages in a polite manner, I gave him the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> Recently (Christmas Eve) this guy has started to call me "wanting to pay me" when in reality I know he's come to the realization that he can't buy a new threading set up for the amount he owes me and needs his power vise for a job. The problem is I've started to really like the 270, I would be happy to buy one new.
> 
> ...


 
You answered your own question.


Play him the way he played you. 

Don't answer that phone, be nearly impossible to be reached.

Eventually, answer that phone. Tell him that "I know nothing about any 270 threader, it don't exist in my opinion" until a check ends up in your hands for payment in full...THEN you'll see about returning anything. 

I wouldn't trust a check either; if it does come, cash it first, wait a week and then see if it isn't going to bounce....then I would tell him you will be dropping that equipment off to one of the guys he stiffed, given he's "good friends n' all" :thumbup:



Just remember; if you didn't have that machine, you'd never hear from this guy ever again, and you wouldn't get one dime either. The ball is in your court and the only way I would play this out is domination of the ball, the team and the court with me getting my way, period. 

Sell it on ebay and put it towards a new 270, that's my way or the highway.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> My story would be he gave me the threader as payment for the job but I gave him the option to buy it back at the original contract price...since I'm a nice guy.


Judgement for the plantiff, give him his tools...


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

I agree with the above posts, Get your money and then return the tool. The others should file mechanics liens. sometimes when you send the letter of intent they will pay up.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Yeah let the other guys fight their own battles. Quit talkin aout it.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*get your money first....thats business.....*

dont worry about any the other fellows, 

they wont do the same for you....

I had a fire contractor that owed me 10 k one time and he owed a 
few other guys 15k and 20k too.....

I pestered him and his daughter and I was the first fellow at the
office the morning when the "big draw" came into the business.....

I took my 10k and went directly to his bank and cashed it before
anyone else could do the same that afternoon...I got a chasiers check and moved on..

one of the other fellows took a good stiff 
screwing from this guy who went belly up a few weeks later 

later I heard that this fellow was actually mad at me.. 
he was out painting the day of the big draw and missed out , 

I told him it was not my job to collect his bills for him, 
and he could see the writing on the wall.....


you get your money first.....cash in hand...cash only .
then take him to where that threader is.
I would not trust the fellow , he might even have the police with him
claiming that you stole it from him
or a couple of big buddies ...who knows...???.
....

how big is he anyway, and does he carry a gun???.

its best to just to meet at your office and get the cash..... 

and stay out of the others battles...


just feel lucky that you have the expensive tool for leverage
...


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

Demand cash payment and then return the tool. Legal action could be taken if the tool is not returned. I would not accept a check.


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

I also agree with the others, get a cash payment for the job then return the equipment.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

I don't know guys I hear what you are all saying but you are letting one job decide something that may change the rest of his life. There are a couple of scenarios if it goes so far as someone calling the Police.

1. You admit to holding his tools because he owes you money.

You are found guilty of a Class 5 Felony.

2. He says you stole his tools and he won't pay you until you return his tools.

You are found guilty of a Class 5 Felony.

3. You claim he sold you the tool for the money he owes you but now he wants to buy them back which you are willing to do.

Depending on who the Jury believes he either catches a misdemeanor for filing a false police report or you are found guilty of a Class 5 Felony.

In some States a conviction for Larceny will cause you to loose your license. I'm not saying don't try to collect your money which is owed to you but I am saying be smart about it. Send him an email or FAX telling him you know with the Holidays he's been busy but you are sure glad he finally returned your call. Invite him to come pay you at your shop (or home) as you would like him to pick up the power vice he had you using. Hopefully, he pays you in cash or with a good check. However, if he gives you a bad check you turn it over to the Sheriff and go on with life.

For the record, one of my ex-plumbers left me to go work for a GC who offered him more money. After a couple of months the GC ran into financial problems. When my ex-plumber did not get paid he took some tools as collateral until he was paid. That cost him 30-days in jail and restitution which was greater than what the man owed him. He only spent less than half of the jail time but it was enough to convince him it was the wrong way to try to collect his money.

Mark


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> I don't know guys I hear what you are all saying but you are letting one job decide something that may change the rest of his life. There are a couple of scenarios if it goes so far as someone calling the Police.
> 
> 1. You admit to holding his tools because he owes you money.
> 
> ...


He didn't steal anything...the threader was given to him and no time was set up to return it. No felony...its a civil matter. But you hafta keep your mouth shut and not volunteer any info when questioned about it. Silence is golden. I wouldn't even be talking about it on here if I was the guy. If the guy called and asked about the threader I'd act like I didn't know what the guy was talking about and keep refering to the money he owes me. If he brought the police with him I would gladly return it and then sue him for my money. Loose lips sink ships. The cops dont now anymore than what this guy is telling them and from my experience they dont really care about getting some threader back that jimmy borrowed from John:laughing: Posession is 9/10ths of the law if you stfu.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

The owner of the threader could get it back and say that you vandalized the threader and have him arrested. He could call the cops now and lie....'I saw with my own eyes him come take the threader off my truck this morning" The guy could write him a check and then call the cops and say.."He pulled a gun on me and made me write a check". It comes down to why are we here? We are here because this guy didn't pay his bill and was dead broke so he gave me his threader for payment and now he has money and regrets it. I would believe that story if I was a cop or a judge.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> He didn't steal anything...the threader was given to him and no time was set up to return it. No felony...its a civil matter. But you hafta keep your mouth shut and not volunteer any info when questioned about it. Silence is golden. I wouldn't even be talking about it on here if I was the guy. If the guy called and asked about the threader I'd act like I didn't know what the guy was talking about and keep refering to the money he owes me. If he brought the police with him I would gladly return it and then sue him for my money. Loose lips sink ships. The cops dont now anymore than what this guy is telling them and from my experience they dont really care about getting some threader back that jimmy borrowed from John:laughing: Posession is 9/10ths of the law if you stfu.


Good point, a quick Google of a 270 Power Vice might bring the owner to this active thread. He might be checking to see what it's worth and find a confession from dankman instead. 

Mark


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> Good point, a quick Google of a 270 Power Vice might bring the owner to this active thread. He might be checking to see what it's worth and find a confession from dankman instead.
> 
> Mark


 
Good point. 


Me? Never would of saw print or conversation on a matter such as this.

Kinda surprising to hear those words printed from me, eh.. :blink:


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> I don't know guys I hear what you are all saying but you are letting one job decide something that may change the rest of his life. There are a couple of scenarios if it goes so far as someone calling the Police.
> 
> 1. You admit to holding his tools because he owes you money.
> 
> ...


Well then while the cops are there return the tool and if he doesn't pay you what he owes you while the cops are there have him arrested for theft of services.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

If nothing else dankman, use this as a learning experience.

I'll venture a guess and say at some point in time we've all been hungry for work. My experiences tell me that no matter how hungry I am, taking work too cheap doesn't quench my hunger- it makes it worse. Not to mention the type of professional company I keep.

Take a hard look at what got you in your situation, how you could have prevented it and how to prevent it from happening in the future. 

I mean this all as encouragement not critizism (sp?). There have been people in my past that have helped me through some of this stuff and I want to see you suceed.

one other thing- change the "name" of the deadbeat in your post. That's hard to read!

Godd luck,

TODD :thumbup:


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## dankman (Nov 19, 2009)

I'd like to clear something up, some of you might have misunderstood my initial posting. I didn't take the tools without his knowledge, he asked me to take them with me when I left because the job site was an empty house in a crappy neighborhood, I may be a jerk but I'm not thief.

Anyway I contacted him yesterday morning to arrange for him to drop me my money and pick up his tools, he seemed happy to hear I came around and said he'd send someone to pick the tools up, when I asked him about my money he told me to turn my invoices in to the guy getting the tools from me and he'd "have a check to me in 14 days"; the problem is I gave him copies of my invoices in October. I told him "no cash, no tools" and he got loud. I don't deal with people when they are yelling unless they have a good reason to yell, I told him that and to calm down, he didn't so I told him not to call me again.

To be quite honest I had written this episode off a while ago, I never expected to see the money owed to me but I felt compelled to try working things out, I'd hate to hear somebody couldn't make money because they were lacking tools I'm in possession of. I figured I'd give him a chance to make things right, he figured everybody else on the planet is dumb and needs to be taken advantage of, I guess he was wrong.


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## plumb4fun (Feb 18, 2009)

I find it amazing that the guy that owes you money way past overdue acts like he's the victim. You gave him a chance and sounds like you've been more than patient. Hopefully his tools will cover the cost owed you.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Sounds like from that last conversation with him, you better make sure you have all of your equipment locked up good and secured well...


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

dankman, I don't think anyone was calling you a thief. IMO. If he needs his tools bad enough he will come up with the cash to pay you. But I would not be using the treader and take a chance on damage to the tools in case it did turn into a court matter.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

It sounds like he still didn't plan on paying you. He was just saying he would to get his tools. If he really planned on paying you he would have had the money ready. He wasn't even going to be man enough to pick up the tools himself.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

*this guy is pretty much right on!*



ToUtahNow said:


> I don't know guys I hear what you are all saying but you are letting one job decide something that may change the rest of his life. There are a couple of scenarios if it goes so far as someone calling the Police.
> 
> 1. You admit to holding his tools because he owes you money.
> 
> ...




Dont know all the legal issues but, You may care about others he owes but their contract with him most likely has things you know nothing about. Have you seen and read their contract? This guy might be a rip off he might have got screwed by the property owner? He may have gotten screwed by using a bunch of down and out plumbers that he subbed to ... These guys may have done a lot of shoddy work who knows. Your buisness is with this one man only. Get paid give him back his equipment. Or you are a theif plain and simple dont sugar coat it because you want his equipment.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

jeffreyplumber said:


> Dont know all the legal issues but, You may care about others he owes but their contract with him most likely has things you know nothing about. Have you seen and read their contract? This guy might be a rip off he might have got screwed by the property owner? He may have gotten screwed by using a bunch of down and out plumbers that he subbed to ... These guys may have done a lot of shoddy work who knows. Your buisness is with this one man only. Get paid give him back his equipment. Or you are a theif plain and simple dont sugar coat it because you want his equipment.


 I wouldn't sugar coat it. I would have told that guy I didn't have his threader and dont know what he's talking about. Hung up the phone and went about my business. Maybe next time the guy will pay his damn subs when he's suppose to and quit making life hell for people by not paying them. Wanna go to court? Sure i'll see ya there. Goodluck proving I ever had or have the threader because I dont know what your talking about and I'll be filing a counter claim for the money he owed me on the job. F that contractor. My boy here would have never heard from him again if he didn't have that threader.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

jeffreyplumber said:


> Dont know all the legal issues but, You may care about others he owes but their contract with him most likely has things you know nothing about. Have you seen and read their contract? This guy might be a rip off he might have got screwed by the property owner? He may have gotten screwed by using a bunch of down and out plumbers that he subbed to ... These guys may have done a lot of shoddy work who knows. Your buisness is with this one man only. Get paid give him back his equipment. Or you are a theif plain and simple dont sugar coat it because you want his equipment.


If a contractor is between me and the person having the work done,I expect the contractor to be held responsible for my payment, on time, no excuses. If someone wants to play middle man between me and my money he assumes all the risk, better have deep pockets to start with.


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## dankman (Nov 19, 2009)

slickrick said:


> If a contractor is between me and the person having the work done,I expect the contractor to be held responsible for my payment, on time, no excuses. If someone wants to play middle man between me man my money he assumes all the risk, better have deep pockets to start with.


I agree whole heartedly. I'm a one man show right now but there have been a few times when I was in need of help and added a few guys on to my payroll, as soon as the job was completed I paid them even if I hadn't seen a dime from the job yet; they made a deal with me, not my customer. Anyone that doesn't pay a sub or employee because they were screwed by their customer is in my book far worse than the person they were providing the service to and I hope it comes back to haunt them.


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## TheSkinnyGuy (Sep 15, 2009)

Something I've lived by has always been that if you take a working man's tools you're taking food from his mouth, and more importantly, from his childrens' mouthes. Think on that. Then be the better man. Sometimes being the better man costs a bit. Most of the time the A$$#oles get this guilt thing that keeps them from being around you, or makes them do the right thing.


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## dankman (Nov 19, 2009)

TheSkinnyGuy said:


> Something I've lived by has always been that if you take a working man's tools you're taking food from his mouth, and more importantly, from his childrens' mouthes. Think on that. Then be the better man. Sometimes being the better man costs a bit. Most of the time the A$$#oles get this guilt thing that keeps them from being around you, or makes them do the right thing.


Are you suggesting that I should just return his tools which are worth less than he owes me and just hope he'll pay me? The work I did for him was literally the first job I did when I went on my own and he knew that. This guy isn't new to the business, he knows how hard it is when you start a business and he still tried to screw me. I did good work (I should have taken pics, I was proud of the job I did) that passed inspection and agreed to less than I was making working for someone else. Jerks like this guy don't experience guilt, they only experience a feeling of loss when things don't go their way. If he comes to me with cash in hand I'll return everything, if not he'll never see them again; anything short of that is the same as laying on my back and letting him piss on me and I charge a minimum of $250 for the first 1 1/2 hours and $110 an hour after that to deal with that sort of thing.


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## TheSkinnyGuy (Sep 15, 2009)

Don't know how protected you are by any contracts with Mr. Shady, so I can't speak too much of legal terms. But it stands to reason that he is in breach of contract, which holds him liable and culpable in the eyes of the law. I understand how much it galls you to be cheated out of hard earned money, especially if its something you are proud of doing. In the end a man reaps what he sows.


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## liquidplumber (Dec 6, 2009)

*Scumbags*

Stop playing games with this loser. Tell him you are done communicating until you are paid in full for moneys owed PERIOD. A piece of crap like this will not get the law involved, he will do whatever is cheapest.If he owes you more than the value of the powervice he will walk, if not he will pay you.I will bet you dollars to donuts that he could not prove ownership of the 270.

JMHO......peace


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## Lee in Texas (Jun 24, 2009)

Something to keep in mind: whatever happens, there will be no playing dumb if the other guy calls the cops. Any competent lawyer will find this discussion and prove that dankman knew the tools belonged to the other guy and he expects them back, whether dankman gets paid or not. 

Call it an expensive lesson. Don't get a felony and lose your license because someone else is a dirtbag.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

Lee in Texas said:


> Something to keep in mind: whatever happens, there will be no playing dumb if the other guy calls the cops. Any competent lawyer will find this discussion and prove that dankman knew the tools belonged to the other guy and he expects them back, whether dankman gets paid or not.
> 
> Call it an expensive lesson. Don't get a felony and lose your license because someone else is a dirtbag.


I doubt that he would spend the money on a lawyer to recover the tool. not worth it. He should just be a man and pay what he owes and he will get his tools back.


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

Its obvious the guy is trying to get out of paying his bills. I would do whatever necessary to get my money from him. Document and record any commuications with him in case it does end up in court.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Roll on over to his house one night, with a couple of your boy's, around 2ish. Drag his sorry ass out of bed, and take him to an atm!!!:thumbsup:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Roll on over to his house one night, with a couple of your boy's, around 2ish. Drag his sorry ass out of bed, and take him to an atm!!!:thumbsup:


Anyone that comes to my house at 2am, better have more with them than a couple guys. We are going to go KO Corral. I need my beauty sleep.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

*question of morals*

I would accept his pyment and return the tools. As far as paying your "subcontractor" asumuing that any contractor is going to pay you as soon as the job is finished wheather or not he ever gets paid is something negotiated . I mean when I help a guy for a couple hours on a little chicken [email protected]## job I often tell the guy this is for cash green on the spot to make it crystal clear. I used to contract some big jobs and I was luckey but I had a contractor owe me over 30 thousnd dollars for a long time you think I was able to pay all my bills in advance Well I could not. Get real People go broke all the time look at all these people letting ther houses go! Theres risks you got to be careful who you work for.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

That's my mom's (lawyer) favorite saying.



TheMaster said:


> He didn't steal anything...the threader was given to him and no time was set up to return it. No felony...its a civil matter. But you hafta keep your mouth shut and not volunteer any info when questioned about it. Silence is golden. I wouldn't even be talking about it on here if I was the guy. If the guy called and asked about the threader I'd act like I didn't know what the guy was talking about and keep refering to the money he owes me. If he brought the police with him I would gladly return it and then sue him for my money. Loose lips sink ships. The cops dont now anymore than what this guy is telling them and from my experience they dont really care about getting some threader back that jimmy borrowed from John:laughing: Posession is 9/10ths of the law if you stfu.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

The proper response should have been "Man, I'm sorry. I can't think straight. Maybe I used your tools, maybe I didn't. I've got this overdue bill on my desk and until it's paid, my mind is real foggy. See ya, click."

This guy absolutely USED you. He knew it was your first job and he knew you would not hire a lawyer to collect the debt. The guy is SCUM!


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

*question of morals*

Just wondering, Did you ever go to the property owner that "ditched " on payment to the contractor? You did say he did not pay! I would go straight to the owner. I have done it before. I guess if he owes several guys a total of less than 3700 its not a whole lot , so why dont you go to the owner and ask for your money? Id be pretty pissed about not getting paid but I would try to collect it. As far as trying to keep the machine you might be able to do that I read a lot of the guys on here say possesion is 9 tenthes the law and different kinds of lies but he might be the original owner or have some proof and if you start liying about how it came to your possesion and he has proof of something else you could have a problem. good luck! Hope you get paid !


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*File A Mechanics Lien*

I already posted about this, 

if you actually worked on a property forthis fellow and it has not gotten out past 60 days you can file a mechanics lien if 
you really want to piss everyone off...

if this skum bag still has money due to him from thte job he does not want these "peskey" leins to get into the middle of things.

 bottom line....

if he does not want topay you, file a lien if you can..

you are lucky to have that $$ tool in your possession 
or he whold not even be willing to talk to you ....

either just file a lien

 or just keep the tool and tell him to
go fu// himself ...

and consider it all a life lesson learned...


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