# first year apprentice. Pics of my work.



## andretheplumber (Nov 3, 2012)

Some of my work. I am a first year. I went to a trade high school.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

In third pix... I thought cross sant tee is not allowed on this type of drain..


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## andretheplumber (Nov 3, 2012)

My journeyman i work under said it was alright.? Dident think to ask why at the time. I am guessing whdre your from this isnt ok??


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

andretheplumber said:


> My journeyman i work under said it was alright.? Dident think to ask why at the time. I am guessing whdre your from this isnt ok??


Guess you or your j man never rodded a drain before


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> In third pix... I thought cross sant tee is not allowed on this type of drain..


Although frowned upon,in my area it is allowed by code and local inspectors.


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## andretheplumber (Nov 3, 2012)

Alot houses we have done ee have used that double ty. And no nethier of us have. The house passed inspection with flying colors. Maybe where i am from up here its legal? I will ask him tomorrow.


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## andretheplumber (Nov 3, 2012)

PlungerJockey said:


> Although frowned upon,in my area it is allowed by code and local inspectors.


What would you have used?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

andretheplumber said:


> Alot houses we have done ee have used that double ty. And no nethier of us have. The house passed inspection with flying colors. Maybe where i am from up here its legal? I will ask him tomorrow.


Ask him if he ever rod drains before... I would not pass it unless there's a acessable clean out on the vertical pipe.


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## andretheplumber (Nov 3, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Ask him if he ever rod drains before... I would not pass it unless there's a acessable clean out on the vertical pipe.


I said no before..we both do new construction.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

andretheplumber said:


> What would you have used?


No, I would not. It makes it impossible to service the drain. Generally the vent for the lavs will tie into another vent in the ceiling or attic to reduce the number of roof penetrations. If you have to run a cable thru the drain, what do you do?

You cannot access it thru the vent. If you pull the p-trap and try going thru either waste arm you will run thru the cross and out the other side. If you intend to use a sanitary cross for sinks you should install a clean out above or below the cross to allow access for drain cleaning. You can use a double combo or stack santees on top of each other facing opposite directions.


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## andretheplumber (Nov 3, 2012)

I will deff be bringing this up tomorrow. Thanks guys.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

andretheplumber said:


> What would you have used?


Two santee's stacked facing opposite directions. While cabling out the drain, the cable could only go downstream. In your rough-in, the cable is going to pass from lav to lav without ever getting to the blockage.

Sometimes the code and good plumbing agree......sometimes.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Service plumbers are above the new construction plumbers for this reason...


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

rjbphd said:


> Service plumbers are above the new construction plumbers for this reason...


:blink:


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

I agree with BIZ, stacked santees makes more sense. 

I have had good luck lately with successfully rodding side by side lavs that are clogged. I use a 1/4" top snake with a drop head. I push the cable in by hand and I bend the end so it points down and when it hits the cross I start the machine and can usually get it to go the right way after a couple tries. Though, this has been on 1-1/2" PVC and ABS. With old 1-1/4" copper or galv all bets are off unless you can see the cross between the two fixtures when the trap is removed if they are back to back. 

Other than the differing opinions on using a cross or a santee your work looks good. Look into what's called a fixture tee for side by side lavs. They are new and better than standard crosses.


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## andretheplumber (Nov 3, 2012)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> I agree with BIZ, stacked santees makes more sense.
> 
> I have had good luck lately with successfully rodding side by side lavs that are clogged. I use a 1/4" top snake with a drop head. I push the cable in by hand and I bend the end so it points down and when it hits the cross I start the machine and can usually get it to go the right way after a couple tries. Though, this has been on 1-1/2" PVC and ABS. With old 1-1/4" copper or galv all bets are off unless you can see the cross between the two fixtures when the trap is removed if they are back to back.
> 
> Other than the differing opinions on using a cross or a santee your work looks good. Look into what's called a fixture tee for side by side lavs. They are new and better than standard crosses.


I will look into fixture tees. And thank you very much.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

rjbphd said:


> Service plumbers are above the new construction plumbers for this reason...


Hold ur dam horses ther buddy !!! I do both. And ur rong. I do think. Some service experience makes a const plumber better


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## PathMaker (May 10, 2013)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Hold ur dam horses ther buddy !!! I do both. And ur rong. I do think. Some service experience makes a const plumber better


...gets popcorn... arty:


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Na. Not me and RJ. Me and his def but go way back. He's probably forgot more about plumbing then i know. But at least I use dialectic unions and circulation pumps. !!! Lol


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## incarnatopnh (Feb 1, 2011)

Here we would use a double wye in that instance. I do both service and new construction. I have found that I use less sanitary tees than most. I always try to use wyes with an 1/8 bend. I can always get a cable around that corner no questions asked. I'm not gonna cut your work down, your still learning as we all are. But hang around with some service plumbers and you will look at things very differently.


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## ptrap (Jun 19, 2010)

Once on a back to back lavatory drain , I started running the cable without really looking over the situation. Disconnected the trap and started to run the cable thru the trap arm. All seems well I think , but then cable started to bind up . Now I am trying to pull it back and that's not going so well. I walk into the the other bathroom and checked underneath the vanity and find about 10 foot of cable wrapped into toilet paper and anything else it could grab. The snake punched a hole thru the chrome trap on the other side. A little tricked that worked well , pulled the 1-1/4 nipple out and bent a piece if 1/2 soft copper about a foot long and kinda of wedged in the drop of the tee. Reversed the cable head , and feed the bare cable in and opened up the line.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

andretheplumber said:


> Alot houses we have done ee have used that double ty. And no nethier of us have. The house passed inspection with flying colors. Maybe where i am from up here its legal? I will ask him tomorrow.


 







Any decent service plumber who ever cables that drain line for the double vanity sink should have a 'drop head' attachment for his cable. A drop head will creep along the bottom of the drain line wanting to go down, which it will as soon as it hits the vertical pipe connected to the san-cross. And if the service plumber doesn't have the drop head attachment, he should be whipped with his cable....:laughing:


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## andretheplumber (Nov 3, 2012)

Tommy plumber said:


> Any decent service plumber who ever cables that drain line for the double vanity sink should have a 'drop head' attachment for his cable. A drop head will creep along the bottom of the drain line wanting to go down, which it will as soon as it hits the vertical pipe connected to the san-cross. And if the service plumber doesn't have the drop head attachment, he should be whipped with his cable....:laughing:


So why are some these guys choping my head off lol?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

andretheplumber said:


> So why are some these guys choping my head off lol?


 






They're giving you an opposing point of view and maybe they are guilty of being technical. I respect their opinion, but when I did new constuction plumbing, that is the fitting we used when roughing-in for a double sink. I would like a clean out under the sanitary cross (in fact my code requires it) but your installation works for that application.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

I have unstopped numerous lavs tied in with a cross and back to back showers by running through the drain coming out of the cabinet or going through the p trap on showers..

It takes patience and knowing your machine. Construction plumbers install plumbing per code, if its within code then it's fair game.


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## johnh (Jul 6, 2013)

In my area a double san tee is allowed. A slip joint trap is also allowed as a cleanout access. But I still install a cleanout at the base, figure it's easier to install now than wishing it was there later.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

andretheplumber said:


> So why are some these guys choping my head off lol?


Because I should not have to spend my beer money on drop heads, while you refuse to double stack santees or install cleanouts.:thumbsup:


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

johnh said:


> In my area a double san tee is allowed. A slip joint trap is also allowed as a cleanout access. But I still install a cleanout at the base, figure it's easier to install now than wishing it was there later.


Bet that's fun pulling the plug and catching that stank water with a shop vac...


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## johnh (Jul 6, 2013)

Plumberman said:


> Bet that's fun pulling the plug and catching that stank water with a shop vac...


that is true but to be honest I still just pull the trap most of the time.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

PlungerJockey said:


> Because I should not have to spend my beer money on drop heads, while you refuse to double stack santees or install cleanouts.:thumbsup:


Get this true plumber a beer or two...


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## andretheplumber (Nov 3, 2012)

So should i even bring this up to my boss? I wanna say we need cleanouts umder these san tees but hopefully he dosent take it the wrong way. Now i know a better way to do this and one day when im laying out the lines i will throw a cleanout in it.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

andretheplumber said:


> I wanna say we need cleanouts umder these san tees but hopefully he dosent take it the wrong way. .


I think a better approach would be to ask why you don't install cleanouts. Most new construction guys don't install cleanouts where they need them. They don't know any better, or it's to lower cost. He's the boss, his rules.

Do you really want to tell him abunch of hacks on the internet were telling you how to plumb.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Being able to hit the right side of a sanitary cross is a learned skill they don't teach in books. And yes, many old salts consider this ability a must to be had by service plumbers.

Even though I can hit a sanitary cross, I prefer not having to.

NewCons being better than ServPlumbs? Well that's about as apples and oranges as it gets. Two completely different trades. I would say that a NewCon that learns service after the fact will probably be more successful than a ServPlumb that tries his hand at new work. Aside from that, I usually prefer to have ServPlumb not tainted by the penny pinching and corner cutting GC's (but there are always exceptions to everything).


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## johnh (Jul 6, 2013)

My mentor always said service was a trade in its self.


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## andretheplumber (Nov 3, 2012)

PlungerJockey said:


> I think a better approach would be to ask why you don't install cleanouts. Most new construction guys don't install cleanouts were they need them. They don't know any better, or it's to lower cost. He's the boss, his rules.
> 
> Do you really want to tell him abunch of hacks on the internet were telling you how to plumb.


Of course i was gonna ask why dont we . I dident plan on just coming out and saying this is wong it needs a cleanout or its not rightm. I will bring up at lunch and see what his take is..


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## johnh (Jul 6, 2013)

as long as we're talking cleanouts, our code here allows a toilet to be considered a cleanout access.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

johnh said:


> as long as we're talking cleanouts, our code here allows a toilet to be considered a cleanout access.


If that's the case, then your code sucks:thumbup:


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## johnh (Jul 6, 2013)

PlungerJockey said:


> If that's the case, then your code sucks:thumbup:


true, thankfully though the code is considered the minimal standard. We have the option to meet or beat the code which I do. The old BOCA code made more sense to me but times change.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

In most circles here, roof top vent penetration is considered a cleanout... I hate that.


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## johnh (Jul 6, 2013)

PlungerJockey said:


> In most circles here, roof top vent penetration is considered a cleanout... I hate that.


sounds like a opportunity to possibly sell a few accessible cleanouts.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

johnh said:


> sounds like a opportunity to possibly sell a few accessible cleanouts.


I sell a few, and dig up and uncover alot. The issue usually lies with the problem being a branch line stoppage. The only way to add cleanout is to open up the wall. People are cheap and hate having holes cut in their walls, so they opt out.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

What is that water heater sitting on?


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## andretheplumber (Nov 3, 2012)

MTDUNN said:


> What is that water heater sitting on?


bricks


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## PathMaker (May 10, 2013)

PlungerJockey said:


> In most circles here, roof top vent penetration is considered a cleanout... I hate that.


:no:

If roof vents were supposed to be used as cleanouts, God would have made plumbers with wings...


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

PathMaker said:


> :no:
> 
> If roof vents were supposed to be used as cleanouts, God would have made plumbers with wings...


Well, I do where a cape sometimes.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

andretheplumber said:


> bricks


You wouldn't be putting crooked bricks under my water heaters.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

incarnatopnh said:


> Here we would use a double wye in that instance. I do both service and new construction. I have found that I use less sanitary tees than most. I always try to use wyes with an 1/8 bend. I can always get a cable around that corner no questions asked. I'm not gonna cut your work down, your still learning as we all are. But hang around with some service plumbers and you will look at things very differently.


The way I look at double wyes with an 1/8th bend is as a 3/4 S-Trap when installed on the vertical. At least, that's how our code always looked at them. It drops the point of vent WAY below the crown weir of the trap. It's not allowed by our code and HIGHLY frowned upon here. Is this different in other areas?


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## FEDguy (May 19, 2010)

*water heater PT valve*

Looks like pex piping being used as discharge piping for the PT valve. I don't know where you live but that's not allowed in NC. No insert fittings allowed.

:thumbup:Keep up the good work yong man. It's obvious that you're interested in your trade since you're asking questions. Good luck in your career and be careful.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Letterrip said:


> The way I look at double wyes with an 1/8th bend is as a 3/4 S-Trap when installed on the vertical. At least, that's how our code always looked at them. It drops the point of vent WAY below the crown weir of the trap. It's not allowed by our code and HIGHLY frowned upon here. Is this different in other areas?


Same here.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

andretheplumber said:


> What would you have used?


A double fixture fitting....


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

PlungerJockey said:


> You can use a double combo or stack santees on top of each other facing opposite directions.


A combo is not for horizontal to vertical transition as it's use would create an s-trap in this application....

As for stacking sani-tees please explain the venting on the lower sani-tee to me...:whistling2:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

incarnatopnh said:


> Here we would use a double wye in that instance. I do both service and new construction. I have found that I use less sanitary tees than most. *I always try to use wyes with an 1/8 bend*. I can always get a cable around that corner no questions asked. I'm not gonna cut your work down, your still learning as we all are. But hang around with some service plumbers and you will look at things very differently.


That would be the same as a combo which creates an s-trap in this application...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Redwood said:


> A combo is not for horizontal to vertical transition as it's use would create an s-trap in this application....
> 
> As for stacking sani-tees please explain the venting on the lower sani-tee to me...:whistling2:


I believe the lower santee would be a wet vent.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> Any decent service plumber who ever cables that drain line for the double vanity sink should have a 'drop head' attachment for his cable. A drop head will creep along the bottom of the drain line wanting to go down, which it will as soon as it hits the vertical pipe connected to the san-cross. And if the service plumber doesn't have the drop head attachment, he should be whipped with his cable....:laughing:


I've never used one...
Never needed one....


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> I believe the lower santee would be a wet vent.


IPC 2006 Your code may vary...


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

Redwood said:


> A combo is not for horizontal to vertical transition as it's use would create an s-trap in this application....
> 
> As for stacking sani-tees please explain the venting on the lower sani-tee to me...:whistling2:


Redwood, I'm aware of this.

Thank you for pointing it out.

It's bad enough you defend Obama at every turn, are you now the self-appointed defender of the newbies.

I'll have to step up my trolling efforts.


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## andretheplumber (Nov 3, 2012)

FEDguy said:


> Looks like pex piping being used as discharge piping for the PT valve. I don't know where you live but that's not allowed in NC. No insert fittings allowed.
> 
> :thumbup:Keep up the good work yong man. It's obvious that you're interested in your trade since you're asking questions. Good luck in your career and be careful.


thanks alot. i love plumbing. i just dident expect these guys to bite my head off over a fitting lol


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

andretheplumber said:


> thanks alot. i love plumbing. i just dident expect these guys to bite my head off over a fitting lol


It's a pretty rough crowd here.

Do it perfect and someone will find a reason to poke you. Most of it is in good fun.


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## incarnatopnh (Feb 1, 2011)

Letterrip said:


> The way I look at double wyes with an 1/8th bend is as a 3/4 S-Trap when installed on the vertical. At least, that's how our code always looked at them. It drops the point of vent WAY below the crown weir of the trap. It's not allowed by our code and HIGHLY frowned upon here. Is this different in other areas?



It's an accepted practice here. I've never had an inspector even think twice.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

andretheplumber said:


> thanks alot. i love plumbing. i just dident expect these guys to bite my head off over a fitting lol


Every fitting has a place and purpose just be familiar with its application. A wye and eighth bend is more suited for horizontal applications if used in the situation you are describing you should be using it in the horizontal then dropping into a riser. Keep your head up sometimes tough comments are the best to learn by.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Back to back is easy, side by side takes a little practice. I came across a side to side like that with a blind crass. I had a helper I called PinHead Eddy. Guy always left tools behind on jobs and he could screw up walking. 

Anyways, we get to this job pull the trap and rod with my Spartan 100 and came across to the other sink. PinHead of course wanted to open the wall and plumb in a clean out, no way that was happening here. I explained to him now I know its a cross I will get it with the next pass. He thought I was full of it until he noticed I already had 20 foot of cable down the drain and running water in the other sink. 

So after making it look easy he said he could do it. After the first 5 tries he failed I showed him how to feel the cable through the drain. Twenty more tries and a no go and then tells me I got lucky the first time. So I grabbed the cable put it down the line and went in the full 50 foot, so I can get the cable to roll up proper after what he had done. He never was able to learn to feel the cable.

Now if I was hired to plumb in homes I would always put a clean out just above the cross. If the vanity does not lend it self to have a clean out in the middle, put a wye pointing towards one of the sinks a 45, then run a short length of pipe till just above the drain and put in a 90 with a cleanout adapter.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Oh btw I do not have a drop head anywhere on my truck.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

SewerRatz said:


> Oh btw I do not have a drop head anywhere on my truck.


You know clean outs are a plumbers best friend,but placement must be something that very few think about. My biggest pet peeve is when a plumber will put a clean out right off the end of a wall hung carrier. Now that is the proper place but some bone head plumbers don't think,I don't know how many I have changed over the years but putting a clean out level with the end outlet is dumb. All they have to do is turn it up then out at a place higher than the flood rim. This makes it a lot less of a surprise when you pull the plug.


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## plumber tim (Jul 4, 2013)

PlungerJockey said:


> No, I would not. It makes it impossible to service the drain. Generally the vent for the lavs will tie into another vent in the ceiling or attic to reduce the number of roof penetrations. If you have to run a cable thru the drain, what do you do?
> 
> You cannot access it thru the vent. If you pull the p-trap and try going thru either waste arm you will run thru the cross and out the other side. If you intend to use a sanitary cross for sinks you should install a clean out above or below the cross to allow access for drain cleaning. You can use a double combo
> or stack santees on top of each other facing opposite directions.


Double combo would make the an S trap vent would be taking off below the trap weir.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

SewerRatz said:


> Oh btw I do not have a drop head anywhere on my truck.


 






I'm all for making a tool if I need one and one doesn't exist for the task at hand. I prefer the drop head over a bend in the end of a cable. I tip my hat to those of us who make our own tools. I'm curious to know what other auger heads you guys make? I don't ask that sarcastically either.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

The first pic is the best way to do that. The second pic is next but if u do it that way ul need a tail piece extension unless ur really lucky.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> The first pic is the best way to do that. The second pic is next but if u do it that way ul need a tail piece extension unless ur really lucky.


Yep, pic #1 is the way to go but there would only be one in a million new residential GC's that would leave enough pennies on the table for a plumber to do it.


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> Yep, pic #1 is the way to go but there would only be one in a million new residential GC's that would leave enough pennies on the table for a plumber to do it.


yea, plus we have to fight for walls big enough for our plumbing as well, i mean would it hurt to make all wet walls 6" ?


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

How about this


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

wyrickmech said:


> How about this


Works great but double the stud drilling for the vent. Time is money for NewCons.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> Works great but double the stud drilling for the vent. Time is money for NewCons.


Lol they saved enough labor on the water running pex they can drill four holes if they can't they to go get a job at McDonald's.lol


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> The first pic is the best way to do that.


 not if your the one paying for it. And just where is the access to the cleanout. 



Jeez.


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## TX MECH PLUMBER (May 27, 2011)

Under the cabinet. Look at mill work and move clean out to an accessible location. Thers a cheap way and the rite way. How much are a few wyes and 45s. Really. If ur cheap Then stack the San tees and put on a tail piece ext. but don't use a San cross


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

TX MECH PLUMBER said:


> Under the cabinet. Look at mill work and move clean out to an accessible location. Thers a cheap way and the rite way. How much are a few wyes and 45s. Really. If ur cheap Then stack the San tees and put on a tail piece ext. but don't use a San cross


Price isn't that tight you are right there is a right way and a wrong way. Clean outs are the thing that get left out or placed in the wrong spot.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Redwood said:


> A double fixture fitting....


That's what I was trying to show Andre. Thank you, Redwood. I searched online and couldn't find an image. I have yet to use one being I am in service and don't do a ton of bathroom remodels but they look handy.


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## germanplumber (Sep 13, 2011)

Redwood said:


> A combo is not for horizontal to vertical transition as it's use would create an s-trap in this application....
> 
> As for stacking sani-tees please explain the venting on the lower sani-tee to me...:whistling2:


I've been trying to understand how that would create a S-trap. I've never heard of that and would love to be informed on it thanks


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

germanplumber said:


> I've been trying to understand how that would create a S-trap. I've never heard of that and would love to be informed on it thanks


There is a point in the combo where the horizontal branch can be sealed off from the vertical vent by the water flow. In theory.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

germanplumber said:


> I've been trying to understand how that would create a S-trap. I've never heard of that and would love to be informed on it thanks





plbgbiz said:


> There is a point in the combo where the horizontal branch can be sealed off from the vertical vent by the water flow. In theory.


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