# No-Hub Cast Iron...



## Flyout95

Plumbing for a Red Robin restaurant. Was a pain to run to the existing tie in for the sewer and grease because of elevation issues. The bar in this place is a PAIN IN THE A$$. Only one spot to run up a vent for the 5 4inch P-Traps. Had to core in the channel of an I-beam and hide in a decorative column. Luckily the inspector allowed an end vent. 



































Anyone else seeing a decline in the quality of CI pipe? I've only been in the trades 7 years.... Just ain't what it used to be.


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## 422 plumber

You need to make sure it's US made. Matco-NorCa has been flooding the market with Chinese garbage. Usually the Charlotte is good stuff.


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## 422 plumber

I would do anything possible to avoid running a restaurant in soil pipe. The acid from the grease and the bar drains just eat right through it. PVC is the only way to go.


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## Unclog1776

Only reason CI is used around here is for temperature reasons

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## leakfree

Flyout95 said:


> Plumbing for a Red Robin restaurant. Was a pain to run to the existing tie in for the sewer and grease because of elevation issues. The bar in this place is a PAIN IN THE A$$. Only one spot to run up a vent for the 5 4inch P-Traps. Had to core in the channel of an I-beam and hide in a decorative column. Luckily the inspector allowed an end vent.
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> Anyone else seeing a decline in the quality of CI pipe? I've only been in the trades 7 years.... Just ain't what it used to be.


Haven't seen much of a problem,been getting mostly Charlotte.Shop tried sending Star pipe out a few years ago,it was junk.We were in Niles at the time and the inspector wouldn't allow it below grade,said he had heard it had a reputation for random leaks and if he saw it above grade you were going to be doing a stack test.


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## jmc12185

Charlotte is the only way to go. One time my supply house tried saving me money on a big delivery of no hub and sent that china crap. I sent it all back and got Charlotte. It's so much thinner and the overall size is smaller. The clamps weren't snug on the pipe.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Flyout95

Agree on charlotte. Best I've seen. This was Tyler pipe, fittings were coming out with holes in them. 

As for PVC, I agree... But this was cook county. And we know how that goes. 


We did a kitchen in a country club when I was an apprentice, cast wore through in about 2 years.


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## justme

Is that San Tee's on their back?


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## leakfree

Sanitary tees on their backs are fine for vents


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## justme

leakfree said:


> Sanitary tees on their backs are fine for vents


Not anywhere I Plumb. A sanitary tee is illegal in any position other than a vertical stack. Where you plumbing at ? I'm not disagreeing with you about the legality just have never seen it around Texas.


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## leakfree

Flyout95 said:


> Agree on charlotte. Best I've seen. This was Tyler pipe, fittings were coming out with holes in them.
> 
> As for PVC, I agree... But this was cook county. And we know how that goes.
> 
> 
> We did a kitchen in a country club when I was an apprentice, cast wore through in about 2 years.


You misspelled Cook County,Cook has an "r" in it.


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## 422 plumber

Flyout95 said:


> Agree on charlotte. Best I've seen. This was Tyler pipe, fittings were coming out with holes in them.
> 
> As for PVC, I agree... But this was cook county. And we know how that goes.
> 
> 
> We did a kitchen in a country club when I was an apprentice, cast wore through in about 2 years.


Does your company do jetting? I would sell these people on a jetting contract, every 6 months and they will be fine. What will probably happen, is that as the cast iron rots out, it will get replaced with pvc, no permits, no problem.


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## leakfree

justme said:


> Not anywhere I Plumb. A sanitary tee is illegal in any position other than a vertical stack. Where you plumbing at ? I'm not disagreeing with you about the legality just have never seen it around Texas.


In the fine state of Illinois(which follows Il. code) and I think you'll find the codes much more stringent here and in Chicago(which follows Chicago code) than most places west.I'm basing that remark on conversations I've had with travelers over the years comparing our codes and installs with what they can do back home in Ca.,Nev.,Tex.,S.D.,Ga.,La.,Oh.,Fl.,Az.,yep we've had them from all over.


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## rjbphd

Isn't arlington hts in cook county?? Got a whole 10 story building here with 2 resturants piped entirely in pvc waste.. other did some remodling with in last 3 years in cast iron. Now busy replacing rotten out cast iron.


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## leakfree

Arlington Hts. is in Crook County for sure.I've got a 12 story there with a 2 level garage,garage is all PVC below and above,12 story is N.H. and copper W+V retrofit to 50 year old stacks with Stringer fittings(they insist on saving/reusing them),B+S C.I. below.I Can't or don't want to try and figure out the sense of it anymore


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## 422 plumber

The different towns in Cook County can follow Illinois code, I believe. Some do, some don't. I have added basement bathrooms and the inspectors made me install 4" ptraps with a reducers for for showers! A 4" p-trap for a 2" drain hub! What kind of scouring out action will happen there, none!


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## leakfree

422 plumber said:


> The different towns in Cook County can follow Illinois code, I believe. Some do, some don't. I have added basement bathrooms and the inspectors made me install 4" ptraps with a reducers for for showers! A 4" p-trap for a 2" drain hub! What kind of scouring out action will happen there, none!


They all follow Illinois code now with their own amendments and "the inspector likes this" thrown in,land in a village who uses TPI inspections and you almost always fail the first inspection,they get additional money on every reinspect over their base contract with the village.Got the state inspector to over rule them once,he wasn't a happy camper that someone disagreed with him.


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## justme

leakfree said:


> In the fine state of Illinois(which follows Il. code) and I think you'll find the codes much more stringent here and in Chicago(which follows Chicago code) than most places west.I'm basing that remark on conversations I've had with travelers over the years comparing our codes and installs with what they can do back home in Ca.,Nev.,Tex.,S.D.,Ga.,La.,Oh.,Fl.,Az.,yep we've had them from all over.



In IPC and UPC codes santee's on their back is illegal . The thought process behind it is if your going run a vent below the flood rim level of the fixture it must be installed with drain pattern fittings . Its not a matter of if, its a matter of when the system will back up they want the venting system to drain properly and be able to use the vent lines to clean the lines out if needed.


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## Flyout95

justme said:


> In IPC and UPC codes santee's on their back is illegal . The thought process behind it is if your going run a vent below the flood rim level of the fixture it must be installed with drain pattern fittings . Its not a matter of if, its a matter of when the system will back up they want the venting system to drain properly and be able to use the vent lines to clean the lines out if needed.



That is the theory, but we install with the sweep of the tee. If your vent is backing up.... you got bigger issues then a Tee


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## leakfree

Flyout95 said:


> That is the theory, but we install with the sweep of the tee. If your vent is backing up.... you got bigger issues then a Tee


IPC and UPC don't mean crap in Illinos,only things that matter are the State of Illinois Plumbing Code and adopted amendments and the City of Chicago plumbing Code.Towns can make amendments to the state code as long as they exceed the state minimum requirements.Tee's on their backs and short sweep 90's were still OK on waste lines even in the late 70's......


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## leakfree

justme said:


> In IPC and UPC codes santee's on their back is illegal . The thought process behind it is if your going run a vent below the flood rim level of the fixture it must be installed with drain pattern fittings . Its not a matter of if, its a matter of when the system will back up they want the venting system to drain properly and be able to use the vent lines to clean the lines out if needed.



If the purpose is to use the vent lines to clean out "lines", are all vents installed by UPC or IPC standards installed with a clean out in them so they can be used to clean the lines,if they are not how are they used to clean out the system?


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## Flyout95

leakfree said:


> IPC and UPC don't mean crap in Illinos,only things that matter are the State of Illinois Plumbing Code and adopted amendments and the City of Chicago plumbing Code.Towns can make amendments to the state code as long as they exceed the state minimum requirements.Tee's on their backs and short sweep 90's were still OK on waste lines even in the late 70's......



Oh I know. I was just saying to the IPC UPC club that if a tee on it's back is not that big of an issue. 

Speaking of Tee's on their backs.... ABS is banned, what if you cut open a wall and expose it, can you tie into it, or do you have to remove it as far as you can see?


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## justme

leakfree said:


> If the purpose is to use the vent lines to clean out "lines", are all vents installed by UPC or IPC standards installed with a clean out in them so they can be used to clean the lines,if they are not how are they used to clean out the system?


 Vent lines installed in most city's in Texas here have cleanout tee's , maybe not where you're at though.


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## leakfree

Flyout95 said:


> Oh I know. I was just saying to the IPC UPC club that if a tee on it's back is not that big of an issue.
> 
> Speaking of Tee's on their backs.... ABS is banned, what if you cut open a wall and expose it, can you tie into it, or do you have to remove it as far as you can see?



That's a call for the inspector,most times I'm told if you touch the fitting you bring it up to current standards.I'm in a building now with tee's on their backs all over the place on waste lines even the bottom of stacks,guy told me as long as i leave them there i don't have to change them out,building was put up in 68


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## leakfree

justme said:


> Vent lines installed in most city's in Texas here have cleanout tee's , maybe not where you're at though.


Only time I'm putting C.O. tees on my vent's is when I have to do a stack test on the system,they don't require them here.


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## rjbphd

leakfree said:


> They all follow Illinois code now with their own amendments and "the inspector likes this" thrown in,land in a village who uses TPI inspections and you almost always fail the first inspection,they get additional money on every reinspect over their base contract with the village.Got the state inspector to over rule them once,he wasn't a happy camper that someone disagreed with him.


TPI sucks ass... had 9 so called voliations by them overturned by the state.. they won't show up when I'm there.. they are not even lisecned inspectors in my opinion.


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## Best Darn Sewer

What is TPI and PSI? I assume PSI is not pounds per square inch in this case. I keep seeing it here on this forum.


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## leakfree

Best Darn Sewer said:


> What is TPI and PSI? I assume PSI is not pounds per square inch in this case. I keep seeing it here on this forum.



TPI is an inspection company in Illinois that sub contracts to local villages instead of them having their own in house inspector.They give the village an inspection price of 1 for the U.G.,1 for the 2nd rough and 1 for the final anything above that and they get more money so every time they fail an inspection it's more money in their pocket.


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## Redwood

Best Darn Sewer said:


> What is TPI and PSI? I assume PSI is not pounds per square inch in this case. I keep seeing it here on this forum.


It's just one of the benefits of downsizing that "Big Nasty Gubermint."

Privatization is a big business offering 1/3 the service for 2/3's the price...


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## 422 plumber

Redwood said:


> It's just one of the benefits of downsizing that "Big Nasty Gubermint." Privatization is a big business offering 1/3 the service for 2/3's the price...


Another way to look at is that instead of all the taxpayers subsidizing the few getting plumbing inspections, is to make those getting the inspections pay for them. Just like BSI administering municipal Backflow programs. The company filing the report has to pay, we charge the customer, rather than the rest of the tax payers, who don't have Backflow preventers.


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## Michaelcookplum

justme said:


> In IPC and UPC codes santee's on their back is illegal . The thought process behind it is if your going run a vent below the flood rim level of the fixture it must be installed with drain pattern fittings . Its not a matter of if, its a matter of when the system will back up they want the venting system to drain properly and be able to use the vent lines to clean the lines out if needed.


IPC santees on their back are 100% legal for venting purposes


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## Plumberman

They revised Louisiana code this year to no San tees on its back..

But you've still gotta vent the bath tub in the j-man test with one. 

Bazinga


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## justme

Michaelcookplum said:


> IPC santees on their back are 100% legal for venting purposes


Copy the code that says that.


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## Flyout95

justme said:


> Copy the code that says that.


IPC says that as long as the vent terminates above the flood rim (dry vent) a San tee on it's back is ok.


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## justme

Flyout95 said:


> IPC says that as long as the vent terminates above the flood rim (dry vent) a San tee on it's back is ok.


What year , chapter and section?


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## Flyout95

justme said:


> What year , chapter and section?


917.4 2012. Talks about venting with San tees. 


Figure 706.3(8) shows a vent with a San tee. 


And I'm an illinois plumber. Come on people!


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## rjbphd

Flyout95 said:


> 917.4 2012. Talks about venting with San tees.
> 
> Figure 706.3(8) shows a vent with a San tee.
> 
> And I'm an illinois plumber. Come on people!


So am I and some of the illinois code sucks!


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## wyrickmech

Here we only use tees on dry vents and no tees on there backs. In no hub work why not just order combos. Here we can't even make a horizontal turn with a 90 on a dry vent


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## justme

Flyout95 said:


> 917.4 2012. Talks about venting with San tees. Figure 706.3(8) shows a vent with a San tee. And I'm an illinois plumber. Come on people!


Are you a plumber , because you are not reading the chart right .


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## wyrickmech

justme said:


> Are you a plumber , because you are not reading the chart right .


correct me if I am wrong but vents come under the same rules as drainage and that makes it against code to have a tee on its back.


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## justme

wyrickmech said:


> correct me if I am wrong but vents come under the same rules as drainage and that makes it against code to have a tee on its back.


Agreed , a santee on its back in a drain line is illegal in the IPC.


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## justme

Flyout95 said:


> 917.4 2012. Talks about venting with San tees.
> 
> 
> Figure 706.3(8) shows a vent with a San tee.
> 
> 
> And I'm an illinois plumber. Come on people!



706.3 is a chart for change in direction on drains not vents .


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## justme

I'll make one last post in this thread , I really don't understand how some of you were able to get a license in any state if you can't figure out why a santee on its back for drain or vent is a bad idea. Some of you have stated it is legal by the IPC :no: , prove it. As for the code in Illinois I won't believe for one second that it is legal there until I see something posted out of a code book . To even have some of you who are plumbers saying that a santee is appropriate on its back either for a drain or vent is down right despicable and just shows how far our trade has deteriorated .

plumbcode.com/ISPC/Drainage%20System%20Installation.html
Found this here , if this isn't the current Illinois plumbing code I apologize . 

Changes in Direction. Changes in direction shall be made in drainage piping by the use of 45˚ wyes, long sweeps, short sweeps, quarter, fifth, sixth, eighth, or sixteenth bends, or by a combination of these fittings. Single and double sanitary tees and short sweep quarter bends shall be used in drainage lines only where the direction of flow is from the horizontal to the vertical and may be used for making necessary vertical offsets between the ceiling and floor above. (See Appendix J: Illustrations B, C and D.) Exception: A short sweep drainage quarter bend of less than 3 inches diameter and placed in a horizontal to horizontal position for a stack vent arm may be used to receive grey water.


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## Flyout95

justme said:


> I'll make one last post in this thread , I really don't understand how some of you were able to get a license in any state if you can't figure out why a santee on its back for drain or vent is a bad idea. Some of you have stated it is legal by the IPC :no: , prove it. As for the code in Illinois I won't believe for one second that it is legal there until I see something posted out of a code book . To even have some of you who are plumbers saying that a santee is appropriate on its back either for a drain or vent is down right despicable and just shows how far our trade has deteriorated .
> 
> plumbcode.com/ISPC/Drainage%20System%20Installation.html
> Found this here , if this isn't the current Illinois plumbing code I apologize .
> 
> Changes in Direction. Changes in direction shall be made in drainage piping by the use of 45˚ wyes, long sweeps, short sweeps, quarter, fifth, sixth, eighth, or sixteenth bends, or by a combination of these fittings. Single and double sanitary tees and short sweep quarter bends shall be used in drainage lines only where the direction of flow is from the horizontal to the vertical and may be used for making necessary vertical offsets between the ceiling and floor above. (See Appendix J: Illustrations B, C and D.) Exception: A short sweep drainage quarter bend of less than 3 inches diameter and placed in a horizontal to horizontal position for a stack vent arm may be used to receive grey water.



That is refering to drainage systems. no waste ties into the vent. We do not wet vent (unless absolutely needed, and if we do we get permission from an inspector prior to doing it. Otherwise they fail us) All our vents MUST tie in 42" above the flood rim of a fixture. I think you guys are figuring that we wet vent... I went vent nothing.


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## Flyout95

Show me in IPC where it says that a san-tee is illegal on a dry vent. Not in the DRAINAGE section. In the VENTING section. Since by IL code a VENT should not see waste. 

And I apologize for misquoting the IPC... I was looking at an IPC commentary addition... not the code itself. 

As for asking if I can read... Very well, thank you. Which is why I know a san-tee is legal for venting...


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## Flyout95

justme said:


> Changes in Direction. Changes in direction shall be made in drainage piping by the use of 45˚ wyes, long sweeps, short sweeps, quarter, fifth, sixth, eighth, or sixteenth bends, or by a combination of these fittings. Single and double sanitary tees and short sweep quarter bends shall be used in drainage lines only where the direction of flow is from the horizontal to the vertical and may be used for making necessary vertical offsets between the ceiling and floor above. (See Appendix J: Illustrations B, C and D.) Exception: A short sweep drainage quarter bend of less than 3 inches diameter and placed in a horizontal to horizontal position for a stack vent arm may be used to receive grey water.



Why are you looking for venting information in the drainage section?


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## leakfree

"Drainage System": All piping within public or private premises which conveys sewage, rain, or other liquid wastes to a point of disposal, but does not include the mains of a public sewer system or a private or public sewage treatment or disposal plant. The drainage system does not include the venting system. Drainage and venting are separate systems, although both are part of the overall plumbing system.

Let's start with this from the definitions section,Read the last sentence please,now that we know that the two systems have separate rules you may continue your research into what is a legal vent connection in Illinois,this may show it but's it's not available online Section 890.ILLUSTRATION AA Right and Wrong Vent Connections

In closing if I really felt that I needed to prove anything I could go thru my list of cell phone numbers for 50 to 60 inspectors from State,local villages and the City of Chicago and have them give you a call to clarify the question but that would not be in print from a code book only from the people that will PASS the inspection when they see a tee on it's back used as a dry vent in a DWV system.

I also don't claim to have any knowledge of IPC or UPC codes as I have no use for them in my work.If a tee on it's back in a DWV system is the downfall of plumbing as we know it,things died a looong time ago because there are 100's of thousands of buildings across this country that are stilll used today without one single longsweep fitting in the entire DWV system.So please explain to me whats wrong with a san tee on it's back used as a dry vent in a DWV system and then I'll question if I deserve to keep my license or not because I have installed 1000's of them that way.


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## Flyout95

Hillbilly plumbing.


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## justme

Flyout95 said:


> Why are you looking for venting information in the drainage section?


That's a dumb question coming from someone that put a santee on its back in the middle of DRAIN line. You are installing a Santee in a drainage system.


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## leakfree

justme said:


> That's a dumb question coming from someone that put a santee on its back in the middle of DRAIN line. You are installing a Santee in a drainage system.


You need to read post #57


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## justme

leakfree said:


> "Drainage System": All piping within public or private premises which conveys sewage, rain, or other liquid wastes to a point of disposal, but does not include the mains of a public sewer system or a private or public sewage treatment or disposal plant. The drainage system does not include the venting system. Drainage and venting are separate systems, although both are part of the overall plumbing system.
> 
> Let's start with this from the definitions section,Read the last sentence please,now that we know that the two systems have separate rules you may continue your research into what is a legal vent connection in Illinois,this may show it but's it's not available online Section 890.ILLUSTRATION AA Right and Wrong Vent Connections
> 
> In closing if I really felt that I needed to prove anything I could go thru my list of cell phone numbers for 50 to 60 inspectors from State,local villages and the City of Chicago and have them give you a call to clarify the question but that would not be in print from a code book only from the people that will PASS the inspection when they see a tee on it's back used as a dry vent in a DWV system.
> 
> I also don't claim to have any knowledge of IPC or UPC codes as I have no use for them in my work.If a tee on it's back in a DWV system is the downfall of plumbing as we know it,things died a looong time ago because there are 100's of thousands of buildings across this country that are stilll used today without one single longsweep fitting in the entire DWV system.So please explain to me whats wrong with a san tee on it's back used as a dry vent in a DWV system and then I'll question if I deserve to keep my license or not because I have installed 1000's of them that way.


I guess you would have to be a service plumber to understand why its a bad idea to use short pattern fittings in a drainage system. As for what we used to do well, we used to install all lead water piping , etc etc. I'll try to come at this from a different angle , You are installing a santee on its back in a DRAIN LINE whether or not it is for a vent or a drain doesn't matter , You just put an approved vent fitting right in the middle of a drain line. I don't see how I could be any clearer.


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## Flyout95

Dude, no sewage flows through a vent line. NONE. By Illinois code, my plumbing is perfect.

You've yet to show me where in the IPC it says San tees aren't allowed, I've shown you two examples that says they are.


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## justme

Flyout95 said:


> Hillbilly plumbing.


You're absolutely correct that's what we call the hacks installing Santee's on the backs . When you install a fitting into a drain system you want to make sure it is approved to be installed in a drain system in the way you are using it. A santee is not approved for install in a drainage system on its back period. :no:


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## justme

Flyout95 said:


> Dude, no sewage flows through a vent line. NONE. By Illinois code, my plumbing is perfect.
> 
> You've yet to show me where in the IPC it says San tees aren't allowed, I've shown you two examples that says they are.


You have shown nothing in any post you have posted.


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## leakfree

This whole thread is back and forth with a person who claims to be a lot yet never found the time to post a proper intro,something to hide?or not what you say you are?
Your free to follow your codes and we will follow ours.
I'd be more concerned with all the plastic crap,AAV vents,etc. that you and any handy homeowner hack can install in Texas than a tee on it's back being the downfall of modern plumbing as you know it.If you'd like a few phone calls to made to you by qualified Il. inspectors let me know and I'll oblige you,and you have yet to describe the physics behind the tee problem,and not from a turd herders opinion.I'm done


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## Flyout95

justme said:


> You're absolutely correct that's what we call the hacks installing Santee's on the backs . When you install a fitting into a drain system you want to make sure it is approved to be installed in a drain system in the way you are using it. A santee is not approved for install in a drainage system on its back period. :no:


Maybe by tx code... Where you wet vent everything and common vent everything.


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## justme

As requested by Flyout ,even though it doesn't pertain to this conversation. 

*917.4 Length of horizontal branches. * 
The length of horizontal branches shall conform to the requirements of Sections 917.4.1 through 917.4.3.

*917.5 Minimum vertical piping size from fixture. * 
The vertical portion of piping in a _fixture drain _to a horizontal _branch _shall be 2 inches (51 mm). The minimum size of the vertical portion of piping for a water-supplied urinal or standpipe shall be 3 inches (76 mm). The maximum vertical drop shall be 4 feet (1219 mm). _Fixture drains _that are not increased in size, or have a vertical drop in excess of 4 feet (1219 mm) shall be individually vented.


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## justme

leakfree said:


> This whole thread is back and forth with a person who claims to be a lot yet never found the time to post a proper intro,something to hide?or not what you say you are?
> Your free to follow your codes and we will follow ours.
> I'd be more concerned with all the plastic crap,AAV vents,etc. that you and any handy homeowner hack can install in Texas than a tee on it's back being the downfall of modern plumbing as you know it.If you'd like a few phone calls to made to you by qualified Il. inspectors let me know and I'll oblige you,and you have yet to describe the physics behind the tee problem,and not from a turd herders opinion.I'm done


 It's not a physic's problem.I never said it was. I like how you change the subject though . (Weak) . As for inspectors calling, well if they allow a Santee on its back not much to talk about there. I will say this one more time, you are installing a santee on its back in a drainage system , doesn't matter that it is for a vent or drain. When the system backs up to floor level you then will have sewer draining down the vent with SANTEE on its back in the drainage system and it has already been admitted you don't install cleanout tee's on your vent stacks . Can't get any clearer than that.


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## Flyout95

justme said:


> As requested by Flyout ,even though it doesn't pertain to this conversation. 917.4 Length of horizontal branches. The length of horizontal branches shall conform to the requirements of Sections 917.4.1 through 917.4.3. 917.5 Minimum vertical piping size from fixture. The vertical portion of piping in a fixture drain to a horizontal branch shall be 2 inches (51 mm). The minimum size of the vertical portion of piping for a water-supplied urinal or standpipe shall be 3 inches (76 mm). The maximum vertical drop shall be 4 feet (1219 mm). Fixture drains that are not increased in size, or have a vertical drop in excess of 4 feet (1219 mm) shall be individually vented.


You've yet to prove you're right.


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## justme

Flyout95 said:


> You've yet to prove you're right.


 I don't need to, any plumber that knows what they are talking about and works under the IPC or UPC knows I'm right .  
If santee's are allowed on their back in Illinois then so be it, hack away. As for the private message's , how old are you 12? lol:yes:


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## Flyout95

justme said:


> I don't need to, any plumber that knows what they are talking about and works under the IPC or UPC knows I'm right .  If santee's are allowed on their back in Illinois then so be it, hack away. As for the private message's , how old are you 12? lol:yes:


You send them to me bro. I politely respond. You're the ignorant **** who can't find in your own code where San tees aren't allowed so you pull the il code drainage code and make your self look like a retard. Post an intro.


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## justme

Flyout95 said:


> You send them to me bro. I politely respond. You're the ignorant **** who can't find in your own code where San tees aren't allowed so you pull the il code drainage code and make your self look like a retard. Post an intro.



I see RJ didn't have anything better to do this morning other than make you into a DRONE lol .:laughing:


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## Flyout95

Prove your right man. Prove it


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## justme

Here's the chart you were referring to. Santee's are not allowed in the drainage system on their backs for ANY reason. Whether it be venting or drainage. :no:


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## wyrickmech

Just me is wright the IPC does not make an exception for venting the fitting is illegal. That is the reason we have to use long sweep bends or no more than 45deg turns at a time on vents as well as drains. Most jurisdictions around here don't care or don't know what the IPC says about it,but according to code it is illegal.


----------



## justme

*dumbing it down*

:thumbup:


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## rjbphd

If it a 100 percent dry vent going above the flood rim, what the hell differance does it make if the sant tee is on back ?? In fact, it would be better as the air,sewer gas would flow more freely in top half of the drain pipes! All approved plumbing fittings will have hubs and the drainage flow is not affected. If its wet vented, then it a different story.


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## wyrickmech

Flyout95 said:


> Which was does air flow? Up... So you're going horizontal to vertical.... Making the tee legal. And for you to insult my work installed per my code... You're ignorant as ****.


actually the air would flow down while in use a vent system is to let air behind the fluid to keep it from making a vacuum. Nobody is trying to dish your work they are just stating facts. The IPC and the UPC all differ from state regulations. Just like the rule about high temperature fluid according to IPC you cannot place any fluid over 140 deg in a drain period without a fluid cooler. I have had engineers tell me I was wrong and that you can simply run cast for ten feet. Where did that come from more than likely a code book from a state or maybe UPC I don't know. The point is they all differ and the enforcement is different everywhere you go.


----------



## justme

rjbphd said:


> If it a 100 percent dry vent going above the flood rim, what the hell differance does it make if the sant tee is on back ?? In fact, it would be better as the air,sewer gas would flow more freely in top half of the drain pipes! All approved plumbing fittings will have hubs and the drainage flow is not affected. If its wet vented, then it a different story.


 Is a santee allowed on its back for any reason in Illinois RJ?


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## justme

rjbphd said:


> If it a 100 percent dry vent going above the flood rim, what the hell differance does it make if the sant tee is on back ?? In fact, it would be better as the air,sewer gas would flow more freely in top half of the drain pipes! All approved plumbing fittings will have hubs and the drainage flow is not affected. If its wet vented, then it a different story.


The problem with doing it under the IPC in Texas is you are installing an illegal fitting on its back in a drain line. It is not allowed. :no:


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## Flyout95

justme said:


> Your opinion didn't count once you misinterpreted a simple drain fitting chart.:yes:


Sure. Don't they still **** and piss in buckets where you're from?


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## justme

Flyout95 said:


> Sure. Don't they still **** and piss in buckets where you're from?


lol , Careful your IQ is hanging out.:yes:


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## rjbphd

justme said:


> Is a santee allowed on its back for any reason in Illinois RJ?


Show us where santee on back not allowed in IPC for DRY venting??


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## justme

rjbphd said:


> Show us where santee on back not allowed in IPC for DRY venting??


I already have , it just seems that some can't comprehend a simple chart. I have posted the chart. Here I will try in all caps . YOU CAN'T PUT AN UNAPPROVED FITTING INTO A DRAIN SYSTEM (SANTEE ON ITS BACK) FOR ANY REASON , UNDER THE UPC OR IPC IN THE STATE OF TEXAS. There maybe it is more clear now.:laughing:


----------



## Flyout95

justme said:


> I already have , it just seems that some can't comprehend a simple chart. I have posted the chart. Here I will try in all caps . YOU CAN'T PUT AN UNAPPROVED FITTING INTO A DRAIN SYSTEM (SANTEE ON ITS BACK) FOR ANY REASON , UNDER THE UPC OR IPC IN THE STATE OF TEXAS. There maybe it is more clear now.:laughing:


You haven't quoted a source you just say ask anyone...


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## justme

rjbphd said:


> Show us where santee on back not allowed in IPC for DRY venting??


RJ , you are better than answering a question with a question. :yes:


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## justme

*dumbing it down even more*



justme said:


> Here's the chart you were referring to. Santee's are not allowed in the drainage system on their backs for ANY reason. Whether it be venting or drainage. :no:


:laughing:


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## justme

can't dumb it down anymore :no::laughing:


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## Flyout95

justme said:


> can't dumb it down anymore :no::laughing:


A vent is not a drain.


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## rjbphd

justme said:


> can't dumb it down anymore :no::laughing:


That's in Texas... for drainage pipes.. not venting


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## justme

Flyout95 said:


> A vent is not a drain.


if the fitting is installed into the drain system it (like a santee on its back ) is part of the DRAIN SYSTEM. :yes::laughing:


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## Plumberman

Typical pecker measuring contest...

If it isn't allowed by code in the area that you operate then its not legal. If it is then put them in per your code.

Every jurisdiction accepts different things, no one inspector is the same.

We had an inspector here that must have been from Texas because he stated the same thing about San tees being on their backs for future rodding out etc.

A vent in a DWV system per Standard Plumbing Code in Louisiana doesn't list a vent as an accessible location to clear sewers with.

If the vent is "dry" then tees were allowed on its back, you had to install one on the state test, the inspector couldn't argue with the print in the code once I showed it to him.

They have since changed it to no San tees, which is fine, we can just turn up combos or long sweeps.

What's legal in Texas won't be legal in Illinois regardless of what code it's under because then the city throws in what they accept or don't..


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## justme

rjbphd said:


> That's in Texas... drainage pipe...


Your installing santee's on their back into the drain system.


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## rjbphd

justme said:


> Your installing santee's on their back into the drain system.


For DRY venting only... such as circut venting to above flood rim.


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## justme

Plumberman said:


> Typical pecker measuring contest...
> 
> If it isn't allowed by code in the area that you operate then its not legal. If it is then put them in per your code.
> 
> Every jurisdiction accepts different things, no one inspector is the same.
> 
> We had an inspector here that must have been from Texas because he stated the same thing about San tees being on their backs for future rodding out etc.
> 
> A vent in a DWV system per Standard Plumbing Code in Louisiana doesn't list a vent as an accessible location to clear sewers with.
> 
> If the vent is "dry" then tees were allowed on its back, you had to install one on the state test, the inspector couldn't argue with the print in the code once I showed it to him.
> 
> They have since changed it to no San tees, which is fine, we can just turn up combos or long sweeps.
> 
> What's legal in Texas won't be legal in Illinois regardless of what code it's under because then the city throws in what they accept or don't..



Santee's were never allowed by Louisiana code (inspectors and plumbers assumed they were), everyone assumed they were because the fitting was never specifically called out as being illegal other than NOT being an approved drain fitting. Most plumbers I guess don't understand this ,with the fact it isn't an approved drain fitting should be enough to understand you DON'T install a vent fitting into a drainage system.


----------



## justme

rjbphd said:


> For DRY venting only... such as circut venting to above flood rim.


You are still putting Santee's on their back into a drain system. Not approved under IPC or UPC


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## justme

Flyout95 said:


> Keep changing outhouses... Leave the real work to real plumbers.


 That the best ya got.:laughing:


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## Plumberman

justme said:


> Santee's were never allowed by Louisiana code (inspectors and plumbers assumed they were), everyone assumed they were because the fitting was never specifically called out as being illegal other than NOT being an approved drain fitting. Most plumbers I guess don't understand this ,with the fact it isn't an approved drain fitting should be enough to understand you DON'T install a vent fitting into a drainage system.


Wrong as usual Justme...

I take it you have trouble reading...

Nor do I take it you ever set for your plumbing test in Louisiana because if you did, you would have to install a San tee on its back to vent the bath tub in the practical part of the test...


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## justme

Plumberman said:


> Wrong as usual Justme...
> 
> I take it you have trouble reading...
> 
> Nor do I take it you ever set for your plumbing test in Louisiana because if you did, you would have to install a San tee on its back to vent the bath tub in the practical part of the test...


I have only put in large commercial work in Louisiana never bath tubs , I don't care what's on the test . The fine state of Louisiana has determined that santee's aren't and never were approved drain fittings on their back. The code didn't change the interpretation it finally caught up with common sense.If you install a santee (on its back) into a DRAIN LINE, you just installed an illegal fitting in the drain system . It doesn't matter if the vent is dry or wet. The santee is on its back in the drain system PERIOD.


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## Plumberman

justme said:


> I have only put in large commercial work in Louisiana never bath tubs , I don't care what's on the test . The fine state of Louisiana has determined that santee's aren't and never were approved drain fittings on their back. The code didn't change the interpretation it finally caught up with common sense.If you install a santee (on its back) into a DRAIN LINE, or you just installed an illegal fitting in the drain system . It doesn't matter if the vent is dry or wet. The santee is on its back in the drain system PERIOD.


So you have a Louisiana State License?

What code do we operate under?


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## justme

Plumberman said:


> So you have a Louisiana State License?
> 
> What code do we operate under?



http://www.spbla.com/


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## Plumberman

justme said:


> http://www.spbla.com/


I know the website of the state plumbing board..

I asked if you have a Louisiana License..


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## Flyout95

justme said:


> I have only put in large commercial work in Louisiana never bath tubs , I don't care what's on the test . The fine state of Louisiana has determined that santee's aren't and never were approved drain fittings on their back. The code didn't change the interpretation it finally caught up with common sense.If you install a santee (on its back) into a DRAIN LINE, you just installed an illegal fitting in the drain system . It doesn't matter if the vent is dry or wet. The santee is on its back in the drain system PERIOD.


You keep talking about a drain system. I keep saying VENT. Nothing is draining thru the branch on the tee.


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## justme

Flyout95 said:


> You keep talking about a drain system. I keep saying VENT. Nothing is draining thru the branch on the tee.


 In Illinois it is allowed . In Texas you still can't put a santee on its back in a drain line. It doesn't matter if you're using it for a vent or drain.:no:


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## justme

Plumberman said:


> I know the website of the state plumbing board..
> 
> I asked if you have a Louisiana License..


 No I do not. But still do lots of work there . :yes:


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## Flyout95

justme said:


> In Illinois it is allowed . In Texas you still can't put a santee on its back in a drain line. It doesn't matter if you're using it for a vent or drain.:no:


So in IL is allowed. Which makes Me correct, since I plumb in IL.


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## Plumberman

justme said:


> No I do not. But still do lots of work there . :yes:


Then your an un licensed hack working in Louisiana..

I'm guessing you don't even know what code we are under...

Along with that you must be partially illiterate, because for years San tees were legal in La, 2013 code revised it...

You would know that if you weren't a hack installing plumbing outside of Texas.


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## justme

Flyout95 said:


> So in IL is allowed. Which makes Me correct, since I plumb in IL.


Which makes you right in your state. But it's still not allowed here , even with your poor interpretation of our code doesn't make it so. You have misinterpreted our fine IPC code a couple times already. I never said it wasn't allowed in Illinois , I just wanted to see something in print(still haven's seen that) but another fine Illinois plumber told me it was allowed in Chicago and Illinois as a whole.


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## justme

Plumberman said:


> Then your an un licensed hack working in Louisiana..
> 
> I'm guessing you don't even know what code we are under...
> 
> Along with that you must be partially illiterate, because for years San tees were legal in La, 2013 code revised it...
> 
> You would know that if you weren't a hack installing plumbing outside of Texas.




2013

§
311.Fittings
A. Change in Direction. The following applies to the use of
fittings in changes of direction of drainage piping.
1. Changes in direction in drainage piping shall be made by the
appropriate use of 45
°
(0.785 rad) wyes, long-or-short-sweep
quarter bends, one-sixth, one-eighth, or one-sixteenth bends, or by
a combination of these or equivalent fittings. Single and double
sanitary tees and quarter bends may be used in drainage lines only
where the direction of flow is from the horizontal to the vertical. A
sanitary tee shall not be used on a horizontal drainage line as a
takeoff fitting for a vent.


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## Flyout95

justme said:


> Which makes you right in your state. But it's still not allowed here , even with your poor interpretation of our code doesn't make it so. You have misinterpreted our fine IPC code a couple times already. I never said it wasn't allowed in Illinois , I just wanted to see something in print(still haven's seen that) but another fine Illinois plumber told me it was allowed in Chicago and Illinois as a whole.


There is nothing saying it is NOT illegal. Which is the same situation the IPC has. There is NOTHING prohibiting a tee on it's back for a vent, in either code.


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## justme

Flyout95 said:


> There is nothing saying it is NOT illegal. Which is the same situation the IPC has. There is NOTHING prohibiting a tee on it's back for a vent, in either code.


But there is, all fittings used in a drain system must be used in the manner they were approved . See chart. Santee isn't allowed on its back in a drain system doesn't matter if its a dry vent or wet. Period.:no:


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## Flyout95

justme said:


> But there is, all fittings used in a drain system must be used in the manner they were approved . See chart. Santee isn't allowed on its back in a drain system doesn't matter if its a dry vent or wet. Period.:no:


A vent is not a drain.


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## justme

Plumberman said:


> You are partially illiterate..
> 
> Even in my last post I said 2013 revised it.
> 
> If you install plumbing in La without a license you are an unlicensed hack plain and simple..
> 
> You post Louisiana code, what is it UPC or IPC?


 Here's the chart again. You miss the point , in Louisiana they had to specifically call it out for you fella's. Here in Texas they didn't have to specifically call it out because we can read and interpret our code charts . :laughing:


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## justme

Flyout95 said:


> A vent is not a drain.


 It is when it is tied into the drain system below the flood rim level. :yes:

Why can you revent only when you are 6" above the flood rim level of the highest fixture being served?:yes::laughing:


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## Flyout95

justme said:


> It is when it is tied into the drain system below the flood rim level. :yes: Why can you revent only when you are 6" above the flood rim level of the highest fixture being served?:yes::laughing:



How do you figure that? What ties into the vent that is draining? Nothing.


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## Flyout95

A dry vent is what I'm referring too


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## justme

Flyout95 said:


> How do you figure that? What ties into the vent that is draining? Nothing.


Why can you revent only when you are 6" above the flood rim level of the highest fixture being served?:yes::laughing:


I can milk this thread for another ten pages and you still won't figure it out.:no::laughing:


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## Plumberman

justme said:


> Here's the chart again. You miss the point , in Louisiana they had to specifically call it out for you fella's. Here in Texas they didn't have to specifically call it out because we can read and interpret our code charts . :laughing:


Let me spell it out for you.

If you do plumbing in Louisiana without a license you are a HACK, which you have proven you are..

Louisiana doesn't fall under the IPC or the UPC, if you weren't a hack then you would have known that...

If you are installing plumbing in La you are breaking the law, which if you knew the amount you think you do you would know that the 2013 revisions make the code, LAW which makes breaking of the law a criminal offense, no longer just fines...

Have fun being an unlicensed hack from Texas installing plumbing in La, watch out for those State Troopers because now they are the ones enforcing plumbing licenses...

San tees on their backs were legal until the revision of this year...


----------



## justme

Plumberman said:


> Let me spell it out for you.
> 
> If you do plumbing in Louisiana without a license you are a HACK, which you have proven you are..
> 
> Louisiana doesn't fall under the IPC or the UPC, if you weren't a hack then you would have known that...
> 
> If you are installing plumbing in La you are breaking the law, which if you knew the amount you think you do you would know that the 2013 revisions make the code, LAW which makes breaking of the law a criminal offense, no longer just fines...
> 
> Have fun being an unlicensed hack from Texas installing plumbing in La, watch out for those State Troopers because now they are the ones enforcing plumbing licenses...
> 
> San tees on their backs were legal until the revision of this year...


All of our jobs are permitted , and your last code was the 2000 which still didn't permit santee's on their back in a drainage system. I can't help that the interpretation of your code was wrong. :laughing:


----------



## justme

Plumberman said:


> Let me spell it out for you.
> 
> If you do plumbing in Louisiana without a license you are a HACK, which you have proven you are..
> 
> Louisiana doesn't fall under the IPC or the UPC, if you weren't a hack then you would have known that...
> 
> If you are installing plumbing in La you are breaking the law, which if you knew the amount you think you do you would know that the 2013 revisions make the code, LAW which makes breaking of the law a criminal offense, no longer just fines...
> 
> Have fun being an unlicensed hack from Texas installing plumbing in La, watch out for those State Troopers because now they are the ones enforcing plumbing licenses...
> 
> San tees on their backs were legal until the revision of this year...


Here is a quote from your own 2000 code , lets see if you can interpret this right. :laughing:


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## justme

Flyout95 said:


> You really are dumb. That referring to the roll of the fitting. Not the type of fitting. Were you born in Texas? Poor education.


 lol


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## rjbphd

justme said:


> lol


Again.. we are talking about DRY vent and u keep gibbirhing and drain pipe.. guess ur name say it all... its "justme" only..


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## plbgbiz

Gentlemen, let's get back to being gentlemen.

Let go of the personal jabs.

We haven't had to have janitorial work in a long time. How about we keep it that way.

Thanks.


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## justme

plbgbiz said:


> Gentlemen, let's get back to being gentlemen.
> 
> Let go of the personal jabs.
> 
> We haven't had to have janitorial work in a long time. How about we keep it that way.
> 
> Thanks.


 The site hasn't had this many post in a long time :no:


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## plbgbiz

justme said:


> The site hasn't had this many post in a long time :no:


Debatable...and irrelevant.


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## justme

plbgbiz said:


> Debatable...and irrelevant.



Debatable means you can post a link to another thread with as many post, irrelevant is all perception or perspective.:jester:


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## MTDUNN

justme said:


> Debatable means you can post a link to another thread with as many post, irrelevant is all perception or perspective.:jester:


Debatable means You know all the codes in all jurisdictions along with their amendments.

Irrelevant is trying to convince us with Ross Perot type graphics you pulled off the Internet.


----------



## justme

MTDUNN said:


> Debatable means You know all the codes in all jurisdictions along with their amendments.
> 
> Irrelevant is trying to convince us with Ross Perot type graphics you pulled off the Internet.


I guess you're going to claim the code in Oregon allows santee's on their back.:laughing: Last time I was in Oregon the code was based off the UPC, unless santee's are allowed on their back in Oregon by amendment I would say Irrelevant is your opinion padawan . :yes:


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## MTDUNN

justme said:


> I guess you're going to claim the code in Oregon allows santee's on their back.:laughing: Last time I was in Oregon the code was based off the UPC, unless santee's are allowed on their back in Oregon by amendment I would say Irrelevant is your opinion padawan . :yes:


Read my intro. I don't just hold a license there. And I never mentioned anything about Oregon code pal


----------



## justme

MTDUNN said:


> Read my intro. I don't just hold a license there. And I never mentioned anything about Oregon code pal


Pal your location shows Oregon. Oregon is the land of UPC where we both know santee's aren't allowed on their backs , right. :yes:


----------



## justme

MTDUNN said:


> Read my intro. I don't just hold a license there. And I never mentioned anything about Oregon code pal


 Did you install santee's on their back in Maryland ? :laughing:


----------



## Bill

plbgbiz said:


> Gentlemen, let's get back to being gentlemen.
> 
> Let go of the personal jabs.
> 
> We haven't had to have janitorial work in a long time. How about we keep it that way.
> 
> Thanks.


Mmm. No one seems to have heard what plbgbiz said so I will say it.

Calm down!


----------



## rjbphd

Bill said:


> Mmm. No one seems to have heard what plbgbiz said so I will say it.
> 
> Calm down!


According to his intro (justme and the former himself) he's just a drama boy looking attention.


----------



## MTDUNN

justme said:


> Did you install santee's on their back in Maryland ? :laughing:


That answer would be yes above ground.


----------



## Flyout95

Dude. You called me out on my work, calling me a hack. You were proven wrong about that. Give it up. My work is great according to IL code. It is not hack work. Nothing drains into my vents, hence it not needing a combo. When I do have wet vents, I use a combo. You insulting my work, my knowledge, and me personally was wrong. You may be a great plumber in TX, but in IL (with one of the strictest codes in the nation, google it it's a fact) you would be lost.


----------



## justme

Flyout95 said:


> Dude. You called me out on my work, calling me a hack. You were proven wrong about that. Give it up. My work is great according to IL code. It is not hack work. Nothing drains into my vents, hence it not needing a combo. When I do have wet vents, I use a combo. You insulting my work, my knowledge, and me personally was wrong. You may be a great plumber in TX, but in IL (with one of the strictest codes in the nation, google it it's a fact) you would be lost.


 I asked a simple question about the santee's and then stated it would not be allowed in Texas under the IPC or UPC . I never insulted your work. Do you want the PM's you sent posted to see who was being a total douche? :laughing:


----------



## justme

justme said:


> Not anywhere I Plumb. A sanitary tee is illegal in any position other than a vertical stack. Where you plumbing at ? I'm not disagreeing with you about the legality just have never seen it around Texas.



 This was my first reply , I was really vicious.:laughing:


----------



## justme

Flyout95 said:


> Hillbilly plumbing.


Here's where it gets pissy, look who posted it. :yes:


----------



## MTDUNN

justme said:


> I asked a simple question about the santee's and then stated it would not be allowed in Texas under the IPC or UPC . I never insulted your work. Do you want the PM's you sent posted to see who was being a total douche? :laughing:


This is getting stupid with the name calling.


----------



## justme

MTDUNN said:


> This is getting stupid with the name calling.


I was being civil , until the vicious verbal diatribe Fly threw at me.:laughing:


----------



## Master Mark

You guys really crack me up..... Its like sitting on the sidelines and watching an arguement between a couple of the 3 stooges....:laughing::laughing: dumb and dumber


The Cast-iron pictures look damn nice to me...although I would rather install it in sch40pvc..



On a side note, I was suprised how cheap you can get plumbing equipment to work with cast iron right now....

 I just bought a Nice clean Used Rigid cast iron cutter on E-bay for 160 with shipping.... 
At least I thought that was a cheap price... There is another one for less than 150 again.

.

I dont want to mispell too many words here....

I will get in trouble with the spelling police....


----------



## justme

Master Mark said:


> You guys really crack me up..... Its like sitting on the sidelines and watching an arguement between a couple of the 3 stooges....:laughing::laughing: dumb and dumber
> 
> 
> The Cast-iron pictures look damn nice to me...although I would rather install it in sch40pvc..
> 
> 
> 
> On a side note, I was suprised how cheap you can get plumbing equipment to work with cast iron right now....
> 
> I just bought a Nice clean Used Rigid cast iron cutter on E-bay for 160 with shipping....
> At least I thought that was a cheap price... There is another one for less than 150 again.
> 
> .
> 
> I dont want to mispell too many words here....
> 
> I will get in trouble with the spelling police....


The spelling police ,intro police so much PO PO around here , we haven't had a good conversation like this in awhile.


----------



## plbgbiz

justme said:


> The spelling police ,intro police so much PO PO around here , we haven't had a good conversation like this in awhile.


Interesting that you find personal attacks and insults to be "good" conversation and something to be lauded.

That will not be the order of the day on the PZ.


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## Bill

Damn! Mighty big lock:laughing:


----------

