# Eternal GU145 Leaking Heat Exchanger.



## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

This is an Eternal GU145 that was installed by our company but by a different plumber. I was called out for no hot water. The unit was not showing any error codes. I called tech support, which is great btw. You get an American in America that speaks clear English, amazing I know. Anyway we run through some things, he has me pull the drain valve and mixing valve to check for debris, all was clear. Then he instructs me to pull fan motor and the burner to check them and the heat exchanger. After I pull the fan motor some water begins to drip out. Then I pull the burner and more water drips out. I then reach my hand to the top of the heat exchanger and find what looks like hard water deposits with a sandy texture. The tech support rep confirms the heat exchanger is leaking and the unit will need replaced. He has me send him pictures of the the heat exchanger and the unit itself. He says he will have to send the pictures to the warranty claims department. He also asked questions regarding the installation... How were the water connections made, well water or city etc. I know these are not supposed to be installed with dielectric nipples which this one is. I know these are not true dielectrics but it's what they're marketed as. So now I'm waiting to hear back from them as to whether or not they will cover it. I think they will raise an issue with the nipples and also water hardness. Either way it's getting replaced today and I'm waiting for the new one to arrive. It was pretty neat tearing into this thing like this. Enjoy the pics..


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

This one has been installed since April. I think tankless technology has a long way to go. Not sure how I feel about these anymore, we'll see how the others hold up. 

I heard back from tech support and to my surprise they are covering it. All they want is us to test water hardness within 30 days. If over 14 gr of hardness they want a softener installed.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

I thought I'd demonstrate how to convert from NG to LP. 

They come out of the box ready for NG and to convert you just simply pop this little orifice in to the gas valve and your all set.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> This one has been installed since April. I think tankless technology has a long way to go. Not sure how I feel about these anymore, we'll see how the others hold up.
> 
> I heard back from tech support and to my surprise they are covering it. All they want is us to test water hardness within 30 days. If over 14 gr of hardness they want a softener installed.


I cringe every time I hear you and others say they like the Eternal or its the best. 
Over 220 welds sitting in acidic condensate, they all will leak eventually, how soon just depends how much they are condensing during use. 

Apparently unlike others you haven't been using them, because this is your first leaker?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Nice pictures

I thought that they claimed because it was a Stainless Steel heat exchanger that you did not need a water softener...???

the big supply house in Indy threw them out the door this spring...had nothing but troubles with them

has the unit showed up yet to be installed???


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

ZL700 said:


> I cringe every time I hear you and others say they like the Eternal or its the best.
> Over 220 welds sitting in acidic condensate, they all will leak eventually, how soon just depends how much they are condensing during use.
> 
> Apparently unlike others you haven't been using them, because this is your first leaker?


Yes first leaker. I'm not 100% sold on any tankless heaters. Time will tell if this is a sign of things to come. I have personally had the best experiences with these although after this it kinda is reminiscent of leaking copper heat exchangers in all the rest of them. It's a learning experience like with anything. I'll use a product until I have a reason not to. I work off of experience. I'll stay with the trusty vertex 100.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

I had high hopes for these when they first came out.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Not all tankless are created equal. 
A lot of people did have high hopes, but as Mark mentioned, many distributors & contractors have tried and quit the Eternals. They completely pulled out of commercial and lowered all their warranties, that says something there. 

But then again there were a lot of leaking and failed vertex tank water heaters over the years, the first version would barely make 3 years in many cases.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Chlorine test of tap water?

Chlorides will corrode stainless, just ask your CSST rep.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

From day one I said they where full if crap with the marketing of these units. Their flow rates are no better than standard tankless units. They made claimed that no softener was needed and they never need to be de-limed.

I have talked to a few different suppliers, and they all said they have been seeing over 60% of the units being replaced under warranty.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

I was surprised to see it had leaked after only 8 months. Hopefully the rest hold up better. The nice thing about them is they are full port so there is no pressure drop. The down side to that is when you exceed the capabilities in terms of gpm it has a built in mixing valve and it will start to mix in cold. I've had great success with the GU195 but this little GU145 would only allow the customer to open his roman tub faucet 1/2 way before it started to get cold. I had a 195 model putting out 9 gpm at 130*. It was pretty amazing.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

I hear you guys ,, but I've put in a few ( 195s & 100 s ) and are having great reviews /feedback ! 
Have two more to put in 2nd week of January . Thanks for heads up ,, will keep an eye on this .

Cal


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## Tim`s Plumbing (Jan 17, 2012)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> I thought I'd demonstrate how to convert from NG to LP.
> 
> They come out of the box ready for NG and to convert you just simply pop this little orifice in to the gas valve and your all set.


 In Mass if we convert an appliance it must be retagged to say the type of gas it is set up for. That is why our supply house`s carry both LP and NG in most every gas appliance they carry.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> I was surprised to see it had leaked after only 8 months. Hopefully the rest hold up better. The nice thing about them is they are full port so there is no pressure drop. The down side to that is when you exceed the capabilities in terms of gpm it has a built in mixing valve and it will start to mix in cold. I've had great success with the GU195 but this little GU145 would only allow the customer to open his roman tub faucet 1/2 way before it started to get cold. I had a 195 model putting out 9 gpm at 130*. It was pretty amazing.


Easy to understand why:

199,000 / 8.34 / 60 / 9 * .98 = 43.3

Your temp rise required to get to 130 was only 43 degrees 

130 hot - 43 rise = 87 degree cold inlet.

Not magic, only BTUs


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Tim`s Plumbing said:


> In Mass if we convert an appliance it must be retagged to say the type of gas it is set up for. That is why our supply house`s carry both LP and NG in most every gas appliance they carry.


Convertible appliances such as water heaters, furnaces and boilers that are field convertible include conversion stickers.

Not having to carry dedicated gas type appliances is good for both distributors and contractors.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

SewerRatz said:


> From day one I said they where full if crap with the marketing of these units. Their flow rates are no better than standard tankless units. They made claimed that no softener was needed and they never need to be de-limed.
> 
> I have talked to a few different suppliers, and they all said they have been seeing over 60% of the units being replaced under warranty.


So did I and from a design standpoint I predicted a 2.5-3 year future problems arising. Sometimes when your right your right.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Tim`s Plumbing said:


> In Mass if we convert an appliance it must be retagged to say the type of gas it is set up for. That is why our supply house`s carry both LP and NG in most every gas appliance they carry.




Same here.. One nice thing about the eternal is that it's field convertible. It comes with the orifice and an lp gas sticker that covers the NG sticker.


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## PlumberJake (Nov 15, 2010)

Had to fail a 16-month old Gu195 on Monday. Tank decided to leak. Took until today before they finally decided to honor the warranty. Customer has been showering at the gym since Monday and will continue until the new one arrives.

I will never again purchase an Eternal.

Now I have to decide if any other tankless water heaters are worth dealing with.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

We're in the same boat brother. I've seen so many issues with tankless heaters I had high hopes for the Eternal. So far after installing about 20 of them I have only had one leak. 
Time reveals all weakness.


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

I'm glad I didn't drink the Kool-Aid. Failed attempt at re-inventing the wheel. The cons way out weigh the pros when it comes to tankless heaters.


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> We're in the same boat brother. I've seen so many issues with tankless heaters I had high hopes for the Eternal. So far after installing about 20 of them I have only had one leak.
> *Time reveals all weakness.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I agree, so does lack of research & development.


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Yesterday, I told a new customer that we didn't install tankless and that I could get them a tank that works really well. He laughed, I left.

I've always been in this biz for the long haul and seen lots of fads come and go and tankless is just one more.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

The technology just isn't there yet for consistency. 

I find all tankless heaters to be consistantly inconsistent.


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

Geez, now I have a new house in the country I am about to start roughing in a couple weeks. They were stuck on a tankless, so I quoted them an Eternal. Threads like this make me nervous. 

Eternal or Rinnai? The devil I know, or the one I don't? 

Gonna look at the quote and see if I spec'd "Eternal" or just tankless...

Stupid things is, they are putting in a boiler for heating the house and would not be talked into an indirect, come hell or high water!:bangin:


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Indirect would be the best way to go. 

With tankless its the lesser of two evils. 

Do you want a Rinnai that will need to be flushed yearly and experience pressure drop and temp fluctuations. 
Or the Eternal that is full port, no pressure drop but will give cold water if the max output is exceeded. The Eternal never needs flushed. 
I believe the heat exchangers are the same in terms of reliability. I've seen more copper heat exchangers leak than I have Eternals. 
I suppose with proper water conditioning not may be about the same. 
If a customer is stuck on tankless and I cannot change their mind the. I do believe the Eternal is the best option due to the nature of tankless heaters. 
I always make sure the customer is fully aware of the nuances of tankless heaters, most people will notice differences in the delivery of the hot water throughout the home. 
There is no better hot water system than a storage tank of some type. 
I always install the largest tankless available because since tankless heaters basically just run off of the recovery in the winter months the lower BTU models just don't keep up as well when the incoming water temp is so low. I do like the Eternal for what it is. But you can't expect any tankless heater to operate and deliver hot water the way a storage tank will all the time every time.


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## BigDave (Mar 24, 2012)

The shop I've worked for (last three yrs.) has installed hundreds of
Grand Hall Eternals, along with a ton of the Japanese brands.
Both the GU 145S & GU195S have to this point, had no higher rates
of failures when compared to any other manufacturer's products.
We've had issues with them, yes, but well over 50% of these issues,
have been improper installation. We learned from our mistakes about
such things as condensate drains, unions, circ pumps and gas supply.
The call backs have dropped to a large degree since we have gained
experience and done a better job of putting them in.
When a "tankless" warranty comes my way now a days, I hope that
it's gonna be an Eternal. They are easier to work on, and the tech
support people are top shelf. Keep in mind that I'm right here in Texas
where the factory (Grand Hall) is operating, this is a big selling point,
to ME as well as my customers. When my water heater wears out,
I'll be installing an Eternal in my own home.


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## PlumberJake (Nov 15, 2010)

Friday afternoon I replaced the heater with a leaking tank. I'm happy some of you are having better fortunes with them. I originally installed 6 and two of those needed replacement so far. Two others have had intermittent problems with ignition failures. 

Both of the two that failed required several pics of the entire installation to qualify for warranty replacement. They are neat little machines until they start giving you problems.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

I've installed Eternals when I was working for another outfit with good results. Now that I'm builing my own house/shop I'm considering installing one or going with the High output Bradford White so I can use it for radiant heating also.


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

Plumber said:


> I've always been in this biz for the long haul and seen lots of fads come and go and tankless is just one more.


It's not a fad. They have been in Asia and Europe since the 50's. 

It's proper installation that is the problem most of the time. 

If people, and plumbers, REFUSE to take the necessary steps to ensure a long lasting install then you are right, it's pointless.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

johntheplumber said:


> It's not a fad. They have been in Asia and Europe since the 50's.
> 
> It's proper installation that is the problem most of the time.
> 
> If people, and plumbers, REFUSE to take the necessary steps to ensure a long lasting install then you are right, it's pointless.


They are still in use in Asia and Europe, but the huge difference is the tankless units are point of use over there, they do not try to use one unit for the whole house. Also the reason they still use tankless heaters and we don't is living space. Tank heaters take up valuable space that is a premium over in Europe and Asia. 

And yes I did say that we stopped using tankless, if you look at the 1930's to 1950's there were many coil type (tankless) water heaters. My mother grew up in a house where they had to go to the cellar light the water heater which had no tank, fill the bathtub, then go down and turn off the heater. We moved away from tankless heaters to tank heaters because our homes have more than enough space for the luxury of stored hot water.


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

The more I read these stories about tankless problems, the more I'm convinced that I will never make the switch to them. I'm just too old school I guess.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Tankless has it's place... However it will never be as good as an old fashioned storage tank. 

It's more hype than anything. A new market.. A new revenue stream built around marketing.


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

johntheplumber said:


> It's not a fad. They have been in Asia and Europe since the 50's.
> 
> It's proper installation that is the problem most of the time.
> 
> If people, and plumbers, REFUSE to take the necessary steps to ensure a long lasting install then you are right, it's pointless.


I believe the biggest problem with tankless is that they really are not cost effective vs a conventional design. There's more to go wrong with a tankless and when you factor in cost of ownership (de-scaling) it would take 15 - 20 yrs. for the pay back for the little bit of efficiency you gain.

The average homeowner with a 40 -50 gallon water heater does not benefit from a tankless. I believe only we do because there is more profit in them as opposed to conventional options.

I would love to put them in, I have to believe in them first and know the customer wil be happy and that hasn't happened yet.


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

Titletownplumbr said:


> I believe the biggest problem with tankless is that they really are not cost effective vs a conventional design. There's more to go wrong with a tankless and when you factor in cost of ownership (de-scaling) it would take 15 - 20 yrs. for the pay back for the little bit of efficiency you gain.
> 
> The average homeowner with a 40 -50 gallon water heater does not benefit from a tankless. I believe only we do because there is more profit in them as opposed to conventional options.
> 
> I would love to put them in, I have to believe in them first and know the customer wil be happy and that hasn't happened yet.


The savings benefits are not the only factor though. Customer sometimes don't mind paying more so they can have unlimited hot water. Sometimes it's the compact design they like. We had customers that had 2 50 gallon gas water heaters in the garage on an 18" platform. Well, they wanted to purchase a new vehicle and found out that the extra 2 feet of platform sticking out was preventing them from being able to park in the garage. The solution? Move location of 2 tank water heaters to attic or install a tankless system on the wall higher up.


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

I sold a tankless for next week. The original sits half in the upper cabinets in the kitchen. They are remodeling. So I'm installing a tankless in the garage. They like the compact option and the space it will leave in their small garage.


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