# know it all customers



## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

So my wife tells me we got a call today from someone who said something about no hot water, and tankless heater. So I make some time to stop by and look at whatever the problem is. 

Turns out, he has a tankless heater, brand new, from a box store. He wants me to connect the gas and water to it. 

He also bought his own venting, which he plans to run himself. 

So I'm rapidly losing interest in this job, and he asks "do you work Saturdays?":laughing: :laughing:

Then he proceeds to tell me that according the box store, it only needs a 3/4 gas line, and 3/4 water lines. And asks if I have ever worked with 636 PVC. 

Then he wants to know if he can use the combustion air somehow, for the intake on the new tankless. 

When I tell him that I will put a quote together for what needs to be done, and get it to him in the next couple days, he says good. Then I can let you know which day next week works for me. This is when I realize he plans to be there to watch us hook stuff up. 

As I am making some notes to give him a quote, he remarks that maybe he'll just get us to do venting as well, if once we are done we have 10 minutes. :blink:

I tell him that if he is planning to do the venting, it must be done before we come, or I will not hook up the gas line to it. 

And I walk out the door thinking, what's it going to take to make this job worth my time, and grief, and headache.:jester:


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## LEAD INGOT (Jul 15, 2009)

$15,000.00 would take the sting out of it. And when he says no, that will also take the sting out of it.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Go high, very, very, very high. Make it financial worthwhile, so high that you think there is no way you will get it and then you will get it. :laughing:

If the price is low you know he is going to make you regret it. 

My new policy is price those jobs high enough that I can smile the whole time I am there knowing that I am making some serious bank. :thumbup:

I would add wording about safety hazards. When the wife sees your quote she will put a stop to the husband thinking he will do any of it.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Quote it all or nothing, brother...and with no breakdown for him to argue about.


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

Yeah, I am thinking the high price for no thanks approach. He felt like a headache in five minutes of talking. Working? Hmmm....

It's Rheem tankless BTW. He paid about 300 less than I would have sold him a Rinnai for.


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

Indie said:


> Go high, very, very, very high. Make it financial worthwhile, so high that you think there is no way you will get it and then you will get it. :laughing:
> 
> If the price is low you know he is going to make you regret it.
> 
> My new policy is price those jobs high enough that I can smile the whole time I am there knowing that I am making some serious bank.


Yeah. Price it high enough so I can buy my new phone tomorrow, and still have spending money!


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## LEAD INGOT (Jul 15, 2009)

Here is my worst case scenario price. You cut me a check for that price, once it clears I will start. If it goes smooth, I will cut you a check for the differance. Alllllrightythen.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Naah, anything a customer buys from a box store can be installed by the box store, too. I don't want anything to do with the trouble that comes from somebody expecting me to run for parts they forgot to buy and expecting me to install their junk for the box store retail price. You can't save money and waste my time. :no:


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## KCplumber (Dec 31, 2009)

ChrisConnor said:


> Naah, anything a customer buys from a box store can be installed by the box store, too. I don't want anything to do with the trouble that comes from somebody expecting me to run for parts they forgot to buy and expecting me to install their junk for the box store retail price. You can't save money and waste my time. :no:


What he said :yes:


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

He is going to be in your shoulder the whole time. Hate people like him. 

Make enough for some byer aspren when your done. For high blood pressure and headache. Lol


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Take it's all or nothing ... Your product and your full price and full installation


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

JoshJ said:


> So my wife tells me we got a call today from someone who said something about no hot water, and tankless heater. So I make some time to stop by and look at whatever the problem is.
> 
> ...


That's why I charge for quotes, most of the time.

I'm really turned off by DIYs. It's gotten so bad, I won't even give them a fw minutes on the phone.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

One million dollars. Add the laugh too.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Is the thing even the right size for his home?

I say give him two bids really close to each other. 

One to install his junk, he is responsible to start it up. You install and leave with all utilities shut off, no warranty written or implied.

The other with everything supplied, warrantied and maintained by you. Make it maybe $100 more than the first.


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

JoshJ said:


> Yeah, I am thinking the high price for no thanks approach. He felt like a headache in five minutes of talking. Working? Hmmm....
> 
> It's Rheem tankless BTW. He paid about 300 less than I would have sold him a Rinnai for.


 
Tell him good luck with that Rheem junk. He will need it when it craps out on him on a weekend. :laughing:


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## Fast fry (May 19, 2012)

Indie said:


> Go high, very, very, very high. Make it financial worthwhile, so high that you think there is no way you will get it and then you will get it. :laughing:
> 
> If the price is low you know he is going to make you regret it.
> 
> ...


that is f-in great.I am going to do exactly this .Will let u know how i make out. Smiling the whole time i am there .Just classic:laughing:


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## Plumberman911 (Dec 23, 2012)

Is Rheem tankless that bad?


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

Plumberman911 said:


> Is Rheem tankless that bad?


Pretty good IMO....but kind of a PITA to work on :yes:

But if the box stores are selling them now. that puts them on my s**t list


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

especially LOVE when they just casually throw out terms like 

" little job"
" take 5 minutes "
" could do it myself "


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Plumberman911 said:


> Is Rheem tankless that bad?


I prefer rheem around here they can buy rennai in the box stores


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## antiCon (Jun 15, 2012)

victoryplbaz said:


> Tell him good luck with that Rheem junk. He will need it when it craps out on him on a weekend. :laughing:


and the flame rods are in the back and are a ***** to pull out and clean after 3-4 years i dont like the rheem's either..


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

JK949 said:


> Is the thing even the right size for his home?
> 
> I say give him two bids really close to each other.
> 
> ...


I like this idea! :thumbsup: 

Wish I had told him I won't install right off the hop, but I got caught off guard, and am still learning to walk on some jobs. :icon_rolleyes: This seems like a good exit strategy from putting in the box store junk.


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

deerslayer said:


> I prefer rheem around here they can buy rennai in the box stores


Interesting. Do you know if it's the exact same, or are there any short cuts on quality in the units they provide to the box stores?

Either way, it really bugs me when I get a call saying "can you come install _____ that I got at _______. If business keeps growing the way it looks like it should, by this summer I will be a pretty willing to just walk away. :thumbup:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

JoshJ said:


> ...."can you come install _____ that I got at _______?


"We are happy to install your new widget Mr. Jones. I can have one of our Licensed Plumbers meet with you this afternoon. There is a $49 diagnostic fee to have him go over the details of what is needed for the installation in your home and give you an exact, to-the-penny price for the installation. If you choose to proceed with the installation, you will not be charged the diagnostic fee. Will 1:00pm this afternoon work for you?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I truly believe fretting over the point-of-sale source of materials and fixtures gets waaaay too much attention. It just makes us look like crybabies.


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

So you're saying you are fine installing a tankless heater someone bought from somewhere else? Put it in happily, take the money, and leave?

I suppose if it was a toilet or sink faucet, I do that often enough, and am only mildly bugged by it. It would just be nice if some things were sold only to the pro's, since trying to compete on price with the box store just doesn't work. :furious:

At least with faucets, I know (or think I know) that they stuff sold in the chains stores, even if the same name and look, is not the same quality, and can tell a customer that. Same for convention water heater, which is one of the reason I sell Bradford instead of GSW/JW/State/AO SMITH. Just haven't run into it with an on-demand yet. Next time I'll be prepared.


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## Titletownplumbr (Feb 16, 2011)

JoshJ said:


> So you're saying you are fine installing a tankless heater someone bought from somewhere else? Put it in happily, take the money, and leave?
> 
> I suppose if it was a toilet or sink faucet, I do that often enough, and am only mildly bugged by it. It would just be nice if some things were sold only to the pro's, since trying to compete on price with the box store just doesn't work. :furious:
> 
> At least with faucets, I know (or think I know) that they stuff sold in the chains stores, even if the same name and look, is not the same quality, and can tell a customer that. *Same for convention water heater, which is one of the reason I sell Bradford instead of GSW/JW/State/AO SMITH.* Just haven't run into it with an on-demand yet. Next time I'll be prepared.


Don't kid yourself, Bradford is no better than the ones you mention. No water heater manufacturer stands out from another.


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

Haven't seen a Bradford being sold at a box store up here, are they down there?

Also, in my experience with water heaters, have had way less problems with BW than with other. Maybe your experience is different? But so far mine has been better with BW than with others.:yes:


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

BW dealer told me that BW is private labeled rinnai.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

JoshJ said:


> So you're saying you are fine installing a tankless heater someone bought from somewhere else? Put it in happily, take the money, and leave?
> 
> I suppose if it was a toilet or sink faucet, I do that often enough, and am only mildly bugged by it. It would just be nice if some things were sold only to the pro's, since trying to compete on price with the box store just doesn't work. :furious:
> 
> At least with faucets, I know (or think I know) that they stuff sold in the chains stores, even if the same name and look, is not the same quality, and can tell a customer that. Same for convention water heater, which is one of the reason I sell Bradford instead of GSW/JW/State/AO SMITH. Just haven't run into it with an on-demand yet. Next time I'll be prepared.


Yes, I do it happily.

Of course after seeing what the customer wants installed, we offer our opinion and written disclaimer on the proposal. This all goes back to my practice of not worrying about marking up material. My employees expertise has an established value without regard to which manufacturer had the best marketing campaign.

I realized decades ago that I am not going to be able resell supplies at a worthwhile profit to justify what I have to go through to provide them. However, I can and do manage my income through my billable hour rate.

My worth and my budget do not change based on the source of materials. If the customer wants to take advantage of my expertise and follow my direction on which fixtures to buy, that is better for me and better for them. If they choose not take advantage of my expertise and make a foolish purchase off the internet or from a box store that is OK too. I will get paid the same money either way.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

The Rheem tankless are made by PALOMA

out of Japan who just happens to own

Rheem/Ruud water heaters as while as

Raypak Boilers :thumbup:


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> Yes, I do it happily.
> 
> Of course after seeing what the customer wants installed, we offer our opinion and written disclaimer on the proposal. This all goes back to my practice of not worrying about marking up material. My employees expertise has an established value without regard to which manufacturer had the best marketing campaign.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the different perspective! :yes: This is well worth thinking on.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

JoshJ said:


> Thanks for the different perspective! :yes: This is well worth thinking on.


Don't think too long, act on it. Biz gave me the same advice awhile back and I adopted his approach. Can't tell you the weight lifted off my shoulders when I stopped fighting for those elusive morsels called mark up. 

Sure, I throw some nominal mark-up on material to cover warranty and cost of acquisition, but I do not look to make my needed income off of that mark up. My billable rate and hours cover what I need. 

Example: Installing a typical Kitchen Faucet. 

How much to install a faucet? $$$.$$ for install 

How much to install a faucet I supply? $$$.$$


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Not marking up material is missing an opportunity for more profit ...

Minimum markup should be no less than 50% and greater ...

So you guys are more or less implying that if I went to your shop to buy a pump off you .. You would sell it at your cost ????


Such silly advice not to markup material as much as the market would bare ...

I make money off anything and everything that goes through my hands...


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> Not marking up material is missing an opportunity for more profit ...
> 
> Minimum markup should be no less than 50% and greater ...
> 
> ...


No, I'm not implying anything, I'm saying I make my money regardless if I sell parts or not. It's all a numbers game. You can make them say anything you want. Low hourly rate plus high mark up, high hourly rate low mark up, high rate high mark up, it's all a wash. Are you charging what you need to accomplish what it is you want to accomplish?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

We are not talking in some kind of code here ...

Either you mark up or you don't ..

Our hourly covers everything and some ... But hey the markup is what makes it all worth while ...

That's no different than saying you don't collect scrap copper and cash it in...


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I mark up everything. A good deal at that. I have a no questions asked warranty, and in order for me to cover stuff, I will be paid. I don't mind customer supplied stuff, especially big ticket items. I tell them that if there are problems with it, I will charge for my time to fix it. I tell customers if their supplied faucet drips the second I walk out the door it's a service call. I cannot control where the customer supplied part comes from. 

I put it to them this way. I ask, why do you want to buy the stuff yourself? Usually I get the well I don't have to pay mark up or it's cheaper. I say you're correct, it is cheaper. The markup covers me dealing with the product on warranty. You're basically purchasing a warranty plan. Usually I wind up supplying the material.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> Not marking up material is missing an opportunity for more profit ...
> 
> Minimum markup should be no less than 50% and greater ...
> 
> ...


I am not in the business of selling pumps or any other widget for that matter. I am not a wholesale or retail supplier. If you came to my shop to by a pump I would send you to a supplier.

What I do sell are finished results and they do not come cheap. Those results are unique, valuable, and unavailable on the internet or box stores.


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

So, Biz, your focus is more on selling systems, being able to put them together in a way that draws on your knowledge, skill, experience, regardless of whether the parts were supplied by you or the customer. Am I getting that right?

So in a situation like the one I referred to originally, you would give a price to hook up everything, and if you were supplying the materials, the only difference would be the cost of the materials, with minimal markup for your supplying them?

Basically, if you supply the materials, great, if not, who cares, 'cause you are charging enough for the know-how?

It does seem like there is money left on the table if you don't supply the materials, so why not try to get it?

Re-reading I see that you pretty much answered the question. You don't supply, you just advise the customer what to get, and put the system together? Wouldn't that make it more difficult to quote jobs, unless you quote really high to cover loss of time due to any number of factors, faulty parts, wrong parts, parts missing?

Or am I just way missing your point.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

JoshJ said:


> So, Biz, your focus is more on selling systems, being able to put them together in a way that draws on your knowledge, skill, experience, regardless of whether the parts were supplied by you or the customer. Am I getting that right?
> 
> So in a situation like the one I referred to originally, you would give a price to hook up everything, and if you were supplying the materials, the only difference would be the cost of the materials, with minimal markup for your supplying them?
> 
> ...


I most certainly would rather supply the needed materials and fixtures for any job, including a tankless WH installation.

During the $49 diagnostic service call I would look at the area for the install, check gas pipe size and the total btu load in the home, and check the specs on the unit he bought. If I determine he nit is big enough for his needs (it NEVER is), then I give him a written to-the-penny price for installing it along with a written disclaimer for no warranty.

If I determine the unit is not right for his needs, then I give him a price that includes a properly sized unit of my choosing. If he still wants me to install the one he bought, I include a disclaimer that specifically states the unit is undersized. The only difference in price will be the cost difference between the two units. 

I don't necessarily advise them on putting together a system to buy. I just let them know what they have won't fulfill their needs. 

This next is based on fake numbers for illustration purposes...

Let's say Material Markup Plumbing Company's (MMPC) billable hour rate puts the installation price at $1600. There are $200 in misc materials. And the WH he wants supply with the correct specs costs $1200. If the markup he chooses is 50% then ($1,400/.5)=$2,800 for materials + $1,600 = $4,400.

So if his plan was to get $1,600 for installation + $1,400 for material markup, then he should have charged $3,000 for the installation to start with. Then show an honest apple to apple comparison as to why his $1,200 WH will work and the $900 unit from he big box will not. Now there is only a $300 difference between the two jobs and the customer will not have buyer's remorse when he finds out there was only $300 between the two heaters. And he WILL find out. That is what consumers that buy fixtures at the box store do...price research.

In the end, even if the customer makes a foolish decision on the WH, the same revenue should go to the company. Wages and overhead do not change if the customer buys their own fixture.

By relying on revenue from material markup, MMPC is allowing the customer to rob his budget at will. This makes revenue a game of roulette as opposed to an accounting mandate. There is no financial common sense to it at all.


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

*Thanks*

That comes through loud and clear! I do believe I am going to start implementing that as our practice for jobs like this. First step will be making sure that we are getting clear info from the customer on what we are going to look at...

In reality, I already do this with one or two common things (conventional water heaters, toilet replacements), just have been to stupid to step back and see that it would work on a much broader range! :laughing:


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> I most certainly would rather supply the needed materials and fixtures for any job, including a tankless WH installation.
> 
> During the $49 diagnostic service call I would look at the area for the install, check gas pipe size and the total btu load in the home, and check the specs on the unit he bought. If I determine he nit is big enough for his needs (it NEVER is), then I give him a written to-the-penny price for installing it along with a written disclaimer for no warranty.
> 
> ...


This makes sense. What you're basically saying, is if you needed the 1,400 markup your labor rate should have been higher to begin with. Do you mark up your stuff when you supply it though? I view the markup as payment for me to warranty the material and take the liability of that.


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## johnlewismcleod (Apr 6, 2012)

antiCon said:


> and the flame rods are in the back and are a ***** to pull out and clean after 3-4 years i dont like the rheem's either..


The trap this type of customer has set for you has nothing to do with who supplies the heater or parts, it is that he wants to do part of the install himself.

As a plumber you will be responsible for his work and yours as well even if you only connect the gas line.

I personally would not touch it unless I installed the entire thing both for liability concerns and because if his portion of the install causes problems he will force you to prove that it's his mistakes that are the cause, not yours.

It's a bucket of worms, brother.

Tell him it's all or nothing :yes:


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

johnlewismcleod said:


> The trap this type of customer has set for you has nothing to do with who supplies the heater or parts, it is that he wants to do part of the install himself.
> 
> As a plumber you will be responsible for his work and yours as well even if you only connect the gas line.
> 
> ...


This^^^. You touch it, you own it. Even if you can prove you didn't do that portion, if the venting is incorrect and he gets carbon monoxide poisoning, guess who they will be coming for. If he wants to save money he can do it all. If I'm going o be involved I'm doing the entire job.


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## bcp2012 (Oct 27, 2012)

I get people calling all the time saying I bought a new gas HWT and i installed it already or I'm going to install it myself. Can you come pull the gas permit for it and put your gas tag on it?

My response is NO! I'm not tagging anything that I didnt install myself. I will not be responsible for your stupidity if something happens. Hate people that try to save a few $$$ by doing it themselves. 

IMHO they should not be selling gas fired equipment to people that are not certified to install it.

Sent from my iPhone


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

bcp2012 said:


> I get people calling all the time saying I bought a new gas HWT and i installed it already or I'm going to install it myself. Can you come pull the gas permit for it and put your gas tag on it?
> 
> My response is NO! I'm not tagging anything that I didn't install myself. I will not be responsible for your stupidity if something happens. Hate people that try to save a few $$$ by doing it themselves.
> 
> ...



Yes this is the problem with the stores selling "any" gas fired equipment
you do not have such a problem with 
H.V.A.C. equipment the wholesalers will
not even talk to a homeowner or any
contractor without the proper license

it will take several good house explosions, or a few dozen people dying

for lawmakers to change the law but I thank that the genie is out of the bottle
and it is what it is as far as HO trying to do gas work


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

I have personally talked to H.O.'s who have
simply removed their old tank type wtr/htr
and installed a new tankless in it's place
never dealing with gas sizing ! or trying to
vent though existing venting !


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## john_mccormack (Feb 27, 2010)

*Massachusetts code*

In Massachusetts, if you hook it up, you own everything! That includes existing vents. You need to certify the venting before you fire that thing off! Be careful on this one...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

RW Plumbing said:


> This makes sense. What you're basically saying, is if you needed the 1,400 markup your labor rate should have been higher to begin with.


EXACTLY!



RW Plumbing said:


> Do you mark up your stuff when you supply it though? I view the markup as payment for me to warranty the material and take the liability of that.


I allow a little to cover sales tax and price fluctuations. Other than that no. It is all in the billable hour rate.


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