# Rocking toilets



## Everflow (Feb 1, 2010)

I was setting 3 American Standard toilets today and they all rock. The floor is level it seems the bottom of the bowl were the waste comes out is hitting the 4x3 closet ring making them rock. Have any of you had this problem and what did you do to fix this. Oh....The closet rings are set right.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Sounds like Jose dropped them to hard when he took them out of the mold before they got fired...
What do you expect from Mexican Standard?:whistling2:


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## plummatime (Feb 13, 2010)

check a couple of different supply houses and see if they have flanges with lower profiles. they differ slightly by brand. you might get lucky. the all plastic flanges are definitely thicker than the metal swivels. if that doesn't work, it depends on what kind of work you want to do. you might be able to cheat the toilet up with shims in a fairly presentable way with a clean bead of caulk to blend it all in. the trick to shims is to make sure that the commode doesn't rock when you press down firmly on the rim in all different locations before you even snug the bolts down. if it is sitting on tile, mark the flange outline and then pull it. throw a masonry cutoff blade in a 4 1/2" grinder. score the tile then carefully chip it out of your way so that the flange can sit down in the tile. a lot of plumbers don't want to fool with tile, but it's all about having a can do spirit. whatever you do, don't leave 'em rocking 'cause bulletproof commodes are a sign of a man who knows what he's doing. and that my friend could be your ticket out of the ghetto.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Do they have the larger hole in the bottom of them?

I've seen holes in the bottom that were WAY out of round. They hang up on da flange


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Everflow said:


> I was setting 3 American Standard toilets today and they all rock. The floor is level it seems the bottom of the bowl were the waste comes out is hitting the 4x3 closet ring making them rock. Have any of you had this problem and what did you do to fix this. Oh....The closet rings are set right.


This crap has been going on for years, and over the past few years it has gotten rapidly worse. It all started probably a decade or more ago when Kohler Wellworths started shipping with wonky badly rounded bottoms. Had to shim like crazy to stop them from rocking.

Lately everyone is shipping non-flat bottom toilets - especially American Standard. Even Toto is doing it.

And it doesn't matter how much you spend either. I've installed some expensive one-piece American Standard and Toto crappers with badly rounded bottoms.

A few years ago I got so sick of shimming like crazy that I finally bought myself a 4-1/2" Makita grinder and a diamond blade for it. I carry an excellent quality 24" level (straight-edge) and I check the floor first to see if it's flat. 

Then I set all toilets dry and see how they rock. I mark the high points with a dot from a Sharpie, flip the toilet over on a drop cloth, put on my earmuffs and do some grinding. I always grind so the wheel turns toward the inside of the toilet's edge, so I don't accidentally chip out an edge where it can be seen. The "ribs" in the middle and near the rear of American Standard crappers are almost always way proud of the edges and need to be ground down. It's bloody annoying to have to do what should have been done in the factory.

I do it a bit at a time and re-test each time, otherwise you end up over-grinding and having to correct a rock in the opposite direction. Sometimes it'll take 6 or 8 grind/test cycles to get it right (usually less). You get better with practice. A shop vac is a good idea to clean up all the dust and grit - better yet, do it outdoors (not practical with heavy one-piecers).

Once the toilet is flat, or only needs very minor shimming, I set it.

Sioux Chief makes Wedge-It PVC shims that work *great* for toilets. I used linoleum for years, but now it's all Wedge-It's. Lino works great because it's springy and crushes a bit so it stays tight. But Wedge-It's are better because you have a wide range of thickness to use, and they're nice and soft and springy like lino, only better. Easier to cut too.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

*Wax ring with a horn*

Just out of curiosity, are you using a wax ring with a horn. I have noticed that the horn makes it near impossible to get them to seat right. I have gone to hornless wax rings for that very problem.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Indiana Plumber said:


> Just out of curiosity, are you using a wax ring with a horn. I have noticed that the horn makes it near impossible to get them to seat right. I have gone to hornless wax rings for that very problem.


Kant-Leaks (wax ring w/horn) should not be used when the flange bottom is flush with floor surface. The thickness of the plastic horn is just enough to make the crapper rock. They're fine for flanges that are flush or below floor level though. If the flange is a bit deep I like to use a Kant-Leak with a regular wax seal under it - the horn keeps the regular seal from squishing inward and partially blocking the drain.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

shims.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

Gerber Viper or Avalanche ,,,, i'm just sayin'


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## brass plumbing (Jul 30, 2008)

*epoxy putty*

i've been using alittle of epoxy putty over the years. trim excess under & caulk over. dont sit on it before it hardens.
beats shims of any kind.


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## brass plumbing (Jul 30, 2008)

shims with expoy putty


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## Mega Smash (Oct 9, 2009)

A few years ago, I stocked my toolbox up with wedge-shaped tile shims.

Because I use sponge gsakets, I tighten them down, and see how badly the toilet rocks (if at all). If it does rock, I loosen the bolts by a couple threads, and tap some wedges in.

Then, the toilet gets tightened again, and the excess shims get trimmed with an Olfa blade. They're white too, so they "dissappear" easily too.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

We use something like this. But they are white rubber. works fine with no problems.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Cedar shims. Easy to trim.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

house plumber said:


> We use something like this. But they are white rubber. works fine with no problems.


You most likely mean Sioux Chief soft Wedge-It's. They're rubbery, but made of PVC. And they're awesome for shimming toilets!


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

futz said:


> You most likely mean Sioux Chief soft Wedge-It's. They're rubbery, but made of PVC. And they're awesome for shimming toilets!


I was thinking Oatey and did a search and nothing came up but the ones I posted. But yeah thats the one.


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## SummPlumb (Feb 19, 2010)

I like metal washers...Or I have used metal band iron if I had nothing else. You can fold it up and beat it flat with a hammer. Of course fixing the floor is the best fix.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

house plumber said:


> We use something like this. But they are white rubber. works fine with no problems.
> 
> View attachment 5141


Ditto !!:thumbsup:


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

SummPlumb said:


> I like metal washers...Or I have used metal band iron if I had nothing else. You can fold it up and beat it flat with a hammer. Of course fixing the floor is the best fix.


Doesn't metal band iron rust? seems like it would show rust marks on floor or through caulk joint in no time. Might get away with that in commercial, but not residential. I can see Mrs Homeowner calling me about the rust stain mark at base of toilet. The wedge-It works awesome. Heck even brand new floors got to have the toilets shimmed, due to porcelain mold, tiles uneven, or both.
Wedge-Its now come in little packs of 10, & I just keep a pack in my tool bag. Good for lots of things, pedestal sinks toilet tanks too. Band iron is cheaper, but with my luck, it would lead to a call back, IMO.


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

I use either plastic or rubber shims. I prefer the rubber ones myself as they are easier to cut


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

A lot of the time I just use a coin...
They are cheaper than the plastic wedges...:whistling2:


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## Everflow (Feb 1, 2010)

Redwood said:


> A lot of the time I just use a coin...
> They are cheaper than the plastic wedges...:whistling2:


I've done that, whats the record for setting one toilet.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Everflow said:


> I've done that, whats the record for setting one toilet.


I never really kept track...:laughing:
Prolly a couple of dimes at the most...


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

futz said:


> You most likely mean Sioux Chief soft Wedge-It's. They're rubbery, but made of PVC. And they're awesome for shimming toilets!


These are the ones I use but............

If they were made in ABS, I'd use them, instead of the PVC ones :laughing:


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## SummPlumb (Feb 19, 2010)

Don The Plumber said:


> Doesn't metal band iron rust? seems like it would show rust marks on floor or through caulk joint in no time. Might get away with that in commercial, but not residential. I can see Mrs Homeowner calling me about the rust stain mark at base of toilet. The wedge-It works awesome. Heck even brand new floors got to have the toilets shimmed, due to porcelain mold, tiles uneven, or both.
> Wedge-Its now come in little packs of 10, & I just keep a pack in my tool bag. Good for lots of things, pedestal sinks toilet tanks too. Band iron is cheaper, but with my luck, it would lead to a call back, IMO.


 We don't caulk toilets to the floor here. Caulk does nothing but hide a problem. Then it changes colors over time. 

I personally don't like using a wedge because it isn't flat. It is a beveled piece of plastic you are sliding under a flat surface. They always cause a call back for me b/c they will wiggle out. But hey, it is all based on personal preference. BTW, band iron is galvanized.  It don't rust silly. :yes:

Happy Monday all!


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

SummPlumb said:


> We don't caulk toilets to the floor here. Caulk does nothing but hide a problem. Then it changes colors over time.


Code required here, I think it gives it that finish look myself, we don't caulk the backside of the toilets.


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## SummPlumb (Feb 19, 2010)

Ron said:


> Code required here, I think it gives it that finish look myself, we don't caulk the backside of the toilets.


 Gotcha; they (inspectors) used to make us do it here. We talked them out of it after showing them pics of rotting floors hidden by a good caulk job. It does give a level toilet a good finished look. I don't like the "wall" of caulk on the commodes where the floor is sloped due to a clean out or floor drain 2' in front of the commode.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

SummPlumb said:


> We don't caulk toilets to the floor here. Caulk does nothing but hide a problem. Then it changes colors over time.
> 
> I personally don't like using a wedge because it isn't flat. It is a beveled piece of plastic you are sliding under a flat surface. They always cause a call back for me b/c they will wiggle out. But hey, it is all based on personal preference. BTW, band iron is galvanized.  It don't rust silly. :yes:
> 
> Happy Monday all!


Picture a wedge door stop. has one ever loosened up and the door shut? I have never heard of these backing or wiggling out.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Ron said:


> Code required here, I think it gives it that finish look myself, we don't caulk the backside of the toilets.


Yes, the inspectors here weep if we don't do it. I use Dap Kwik Seal because it's easy to work with (silicone is horrible for toilet caulking) - water soluble, so just a wet finger and a sponge makes a nice neat job. It dries water-resistant - good enough for a toilet base. Their clear is very transparent - looks good when dry. I do leave the back of the bowl uncaulked, so if any leakage occurs it will hopefully show up there.


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## SummPlumb (Feb 19, 2010)

house plumber said:


> Picture a wedge door stop. has one ever loosened up and the door shut? I have never heard of these backing or wiggling out.


 Maybe it was installer error? <------- :yes:


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

SummPlumb said:


> We don't caulk toilets to the floor here. Caulk does nothing but hide a problem. Then it changes colors over time.
> 
> I personally don't like using a wedge because it isn't flat. It is a beveled piece of plastic you are sliding under a flat surface. They always cause a call back for me b/c they will wiggle out. But hey, it is all based on personal preference. BTW, band iron is galvanized.  It don't rust silly. :yes:
> 
> Happy Monday all!


 Not a big deal, & like you said, its all personal preference.This is just for coversation. I just think you would then see the band iron, or washer, if it wasn't caulked, no?
Here also, it is code to caulk plbg fixtures, & most inspectors will not approve job, if not caulked. Caulk around base of toilet is for sanitary reasons. When kids, or adults too, have bad aim, or toilet gets plugged & overflows 1 time or more, urine,among other things, gets underneath toilet bowl at floor,& you can't get that out or cleaned. Then its starts stinking after a while. I've taken up lots of toilets, that are nasty smelling under there, due to not being sealed around base. The urine will actually turn into powder, under there.
BTW, the rubber Wedge-Its are alot better than the plastic ones, they will not slide out. I can see your point though, if you were using plastic ones, they probobly have a lot better chance of sliding out.


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## Bollinger plumber (Apr 3, 2009)

I have used a fast setting hydraulic cement to shim toilets in the past if they were really bad or in the event of a sloping floor due to a floor drain. Mix it use a putty knife to push it under the toilet wait 10 or fifteen minutes and tighten a little more on the bolts. Wipe the excess off before it dries and if needed put a little caulk around it to hide the difference in color. I don't usually caulk toilets but if I have too I leave an open space in the back.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Am I the only one that uses cedar shims? Rot resistant, easy to trim on a curve and cheap. One bundle would do 10,000 toilets and lav's.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

slickrick said:


> Am I the only one that uses cedar shims? Rot resistant, easy to trim on a curve and cheap. One bundle would do 10,000 toilets and lav's.


Maybe you are.

I pulled a toilet Saturday that had cedar shims under it, and a huge wad of silicone around the outside because it had a big gap under the edge. The cedar shims weren't rotten, but they were soaked in piss, even with all the silicone. It was pretty disgusting. 

And then of course some idiot had put an ABS flange ring on the old lead stub, but didn't bother to anchor it to the floor ("duh... the lead will hold it"). The lead did hold it, partly. The ring was cracked in half from being overtightened and was pulled up tight against the bottom of the toilet (so much for the lead holding it). What a mess! But typical...

It got reset with a new ABS ring, properly anchored to the concrete floor. Ground the new wonky non-flat toilet to suit the old wonky non-flat floor, and shimmed with Wedge-Its at the back where the floor dropped a good 1/4" toward the wall.

Woulda took pictures, but I didn't want to touch my camera until after I washed up.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

slickrick said:


> Am I the only one that uses cedar shims? Rot resistant, easy to trim on a curve and cheap. One bundle would do 10,000 toilets and lav's.


slick we need you to see light,,,use plastic not wood, your ridin by yourself using wood:boat: To be honest ive never used cedar shims for toilets


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

GREENPLUM said:


> slick we need you to see light,,,use plastic not wood, your ridin by yourself using wood:boat: To be honest ive never used cedar shims for toilets


Cedar shims are tried and true old school technology that works. I can't help if the toilets leaks and gets a soiled substance on them. I have the plastic wedges, but when you need to trim them they are a PITA. Cedar shims can be stacked if need be to fit any angle, and trimmed to make the perfect fit. And they are Green friendly. ( except for the few trees that gave their lives.) Grab some when you are at the box and try them, you may never go back.


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## TheSkinnyGuy (Sep 15, 2009)

slickrick said:


> Am I the only one that uses cedar shims? Rot resistant, easy to trim on a curve and cheap. One bundle would do 10,000 toilets and lav's.


I use cedar when I can't find my Sioux Chief wedges, and if I can't find those I cut me off a couple of slivers of 1/2" copper and flatten them into shims. I've also been known to use a few coins here and there, but I use pennies cuz I'm poor :laughing:. As far as caulking goes, I like to grout my comodes in (esp. on tile floors cuz it blends in with the rest of the tile). I got a bout 5 different collors of grout on my truck, and can match just about any color.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

I used to use cedar until those marvelous Sioux Chief shims came out. I think you're stuck in the 90's.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

house plumber said:


> I used to use cedar until those marvelous Sioux Chief shims came out. I think you're stuck in the 90's.


What's so marvelous about them? And I am stuck in the '70's thank you.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

slickrick said:


> What's so marvelous about them? And I am stuck in the '70's thank you.


i dont know. they work good. sorry about getting the decade wrong.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

slickrick said:


> What's so marvelous about them? And I am stuck in the '70's thank you.


Try them. You will like them (I predict).


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I had those hard plastic wedges, didn't care for them. Couldn't trim them.

Cedar for me.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

RealLivePlumber said:


> I had those hard plastic wedges, didn't care for them. Couldn't trim them.
> 
> Cedar for me.


Get the soft ones. They're awesome!


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

The soft ones so easy to trim, nice sharp utility knife works great.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

OK,I will get some of the soft one's and try them. but if don't like them I would expect you guy's to reimburse me for my pain and suffering.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

slickrick said:


> Cedar shims are tried and true old school technology that works. I can't help if the toilets leaks and gets a soiled substance on them. I have the plastic wedges, but when you need to trim them they are a PITA. Cedar shims can be stacked if need be to fit any angle, and trimmed to make the perfect fit. And they are Green friendly. ( except for the few trees that gave their lives.) Grab some when you are at the box and try them, you may never go back.


 You are thinking of the plastic Wedge-Its that are a PITA to cut. The white rubber ones cut easier than those cedar shims. I just think if those shims do get wet, they will stay wet, with whatever substance is on them. That chance is pretty good since these are plumbing fixtures we're talkin about here.
Besides, the Wedge-Its are 25 cents each, & you should do your share to help get this economy going again:laughing:


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

slickrick said:


> OK,I will get some of the soft one's and try them. but if don't like them I would expect you guy's to reimburse me for my pain and suffering.


Sorry I was late. Everyone beat me to the punch


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

slickrick said:


> OK,I will get some of the soft one's and try them. but if don't like them I would expect you guy's to reimburse me for my pain and suffering.


Give me your address. I'll mail you 25 of the soft ones.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

house plumber said:


> Give me your address. I'll mail you 25 of the soft ones.


I appreciate the offer, but I will get some from my supplier on Wed. and give them a try.


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## SummPlumb (Feb 19, 2010)

I will try the soft ones. The hard ones were a PITA to cut. I had to take a wood chisel and break them. I have also used tile grout to secure a rocking commode. It works well also. 

Thanks for all the input. This board is awesome for picking each others brains for ideas!


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

SummPlumb said:


> I will try the soft ones. The hard ones were a PITA to cut. I had to take a wood chisel and break them. I have also used tile grout to secure a rocking commode. It works well also.
> 
> Thanks for all the input. This board is awesome for picking each others brains for ideas!


 I think tile grout looks the best. The tileman will usually leave the left over grout there anyway, so makes for a perfect match. But some G.C.'s I work for don't want grout, cuz its not flexible. I grouted all the toilets in my house when we did new ceramic tile floors. 1 is 12 yrs old & they all still looks good.:thumbsup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Don The Plumber said:


> I think tile grout looks the best. The tileman will usually leave the left over grout there anyway, so makes for a perfect match. But some G.C.'s I work for don't want grout, cuz its not flexible. I grouted all the toilets in my house when we did new ceramic tile floors. 1 is 12 yrs old & they all still looks good.:thumbsup:


 I agree totally:thumbup: I did the same and mines 10 years old and still looks like new.:thumbsup:


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

grout is not water or gas tight...


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## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Plumbworker said:


> grout is not water or gas tight...


Whatever you choose to use to "Seal" around the base of the water closet is not meant to be water and gas tight. It is for hygiene and cleanliness. If your relying on this to seal out water and sewer gas you've got other problems.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Plumbworker said:


> grout is not water or gas tight...


 I sealed mine. The sealer repells water:thumbsup:


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## PlumbingTheCape (Mar 1, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Sounds like Jose dropped them to hard when he took them out of the mold before they got fired...
> What do you expect from Mexican Standard?:whistling2:


HAHAHAHAHA :whistling2:


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## kentdmo (Dec 15, 2008)

always the soft rubber wedge


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## ironandfire (Oct 9, 2008)

Everflow said:


> I was setting 3 American Standard toilets today and they all rock. The floor is level it seems the bottom of the bowl were the waste comes out is hitting the 4x3 closet ring making them rock. Have any of you had this problem and what did you do to fix this. Oh....The closet rings are set right.


This really works for me.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

ironandfire said:


> This really works for me.


Hehehehe :laughing::laughing::laughing:

The Throne! :laughing::jester:I love it.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

ironandfire said:


> This really works for me.


 

:laughing: That's one helluva toilet shim!!!!


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

if it is a tile job i always put flange down on concrete and that way the tile is flush with the top of the ring. but if it is already recessed then i suppose a plastic shim would work. i dont recommend shims! i would rather fix the underlying problem and recess till i get it to sit or get a new toilet.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

ironandfire said:


> This really works for me.


 I was just wondering if they had a few milk crates to stand on, when using the lav?:laughing: If that drain on the back wall is indeed the lav drain.
But on 2nd thought maybe they figured you could stand on 1st step, & rinse your hands off in toilet.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

justin said:


> if it is a tile job i always put flange down on concrete and that way the tile is flush with the top of the ring. but if it is already recessed then i suppose a plastic shim would work. i dont recommend shims! i would rather fix the underlying problem and recess till i get it to sit or get a new toilet.


So your saying all your closet flanges are set to low....flush with tile. Thank you for the business:laughing: I knew I'd finally find the guy doing that so I could thank him.:laughing:


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

that cant make sense top of wax flush with tile even my 7yr girl knows better then that!


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> that cant make sense top of wax flush with tile even my 7yr girl knows better then that!


Didn't say top of wax mr maintenance man I said flange.


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## braindead (May 29, 2010)

ironandfire said:


> This really works for me.


 
Someone really got that rough-in off! :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> So your saying all your closet flanges are set to low....flush with tile. Thank you for the business:laughing: I knew I'd finally find the guy doing that so I could thank him.:laughing:


Better than a shim which always fails. Keep putting shims wise guy.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

justin said:


> Better than a shim which always fails. Keep putting shims wise guy.


The underside of the flange should be sitting on TOP of the tile...not recessed and touching the concrete.......your customers deserve better...try doing it the right way for a change of pace:thumbsup: Do ya anchor them to the slab or just slap some glue on it and let it ride?:laughing: Shims have nothing to do with it

Please explain how a shim would fail????? The only time a shim should be used is if the floor is not level anyway and not anything to do with the horn or bottom of the toilet interfering with setting the bowl by hitting the flange because the flange is high......all wiseguys know that:laughing:


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> The underside of the flange should be sitting on TOP of the tile...not recessed and touching the concrete.......your customers deserve better...try doing it the right way for a change of pace:thumbsup: Do ya anchor them to the slab or just slap some glue on it and let it ride?:laughing: Shims have nothing to do with it


I anchor them . And 3/8" inch is enough to cure all chance of wobbling. Use jumbo wax and you will never have to set that toilet again. Well , you may . Thanks for all your expert advice.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

justin said:


> I anchor them . And 3/8" inch is enough to cure all chance of wobbling. Use jumbo wax and you will never have to set that toilet again. Well , you may . Thanks for all your expert advice.


What brand of toilets do you use that 3/8" thick flange will keep it from setting??.....cheap crap or what?


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> The underside of the flange should be sitting on TOP of the tile...not recessed and touching the concrete.......your customers deserve better...try doing it the right way for a change of pace:thumbsup: Do ya anchor them to the slab or just slap some glue on it and let it ride?:laughing: Shims have nothing to do with it
> 
> Please explain how a shim would fail????? The only time a shim should be used is if the floor is not level anyway and not anything to do with the horn or bottom of the toilet interfering with setting the bowl by hitting the flange because the flange is high......all wiseguys know that:laughing:


I have never had to use a shim. I always fix underlying problem. And if it is impossible to fix I use grout. Way more professional.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> The underside of the flange MUST be sitting on TOP of the tile...not recessed and touching the concrete.......your customers deserve better...try doing it the right way for a change of pace:thumbsup: Do ya anchor them to the slab or just slap some glue on it and let it ride?:laughing: Shims have nothing to do with it
> 
> Please explain how a shim would fail????? The only time a shim should be used is if the floor is not level anyway and not anything to do with the horn or bottom of the toilet interfering with setting the bowl by hitting the flange because the flange is high......all wiseguys know that:laughing:


 
Code Requirement.


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> What brand of toilets do you use that 3/8" thick flange will keep it from setting??.....cheap crap or what?


3/8", meaning the the thickness of the tile. The flange is recessed max 3/8 and then anchored and then jumbo wax. Me and my subs have sat over 1000 of them in last year and never had a prob. And the ones from previous years have not had a warranty call. I am tied directly to all warranties for 3 years. I get warranty calls but not on toilets. 
Use mainly kohler wellworth, but sometimes cheap shot like crane and American standard. Never had a real problem.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

justin said:


> I have never had to use a shim. I always fix underlying problem. And if it is impossible to fix I use grout. Way more professional.


A shim works well until the grout hardens.....shims work fine for small imperfections. Please explain how the shim fails sir..if ya can.....I personally dont stack them to the ceiling:laughing:

You have yet to explain the purpose of setting a flange LOW.


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Code Requirement.


Yes true, and a union shall not be doped.I know this.


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> A shim works well until the grout hardens.....shims work fine for small imperfections. Please explain how the shim fails sir..if ya can.....I personally dont stack them to the ceiling:laughing:
> 
> You have yet to explain the purpose of setting a flange LOW.


Never mind your the master. Next thread.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

justin said:


> 3/8", meaning the the thickness of the tile. The flange is recessed max 3/8 and then anchored and then jumbo wax. Me and my subs have sat over 1000 of them in last year and never had a prob. And the ones from previous years have not had a warranty call. I am tied directly to all warranties for 3 years. I get warranty calls but not on toilets.
> Use mainly kohler wellworth, but sometimes cheap shot like crane and American standard. Never had a real problem.


Whats the purpose of installing a jumbo wax??? You wouldn't need a jumbo wax if you would put the flange were its suppose to be:blink:

On a side note...do ya put the wax on the bowl and then set it or on the flange and then set the bowl?


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

so you set the flange on the concrete. What if they build the floor up an 1 1/2 like the houses we do?


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

house plumber said:


> so you set the flange on the concrete. What if they build the floor up an 1 1/2 like the houses we do?


Yeah , and if IF was a fifth you would be drunk. We don't have that with my builders so.........


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

justin said:


> Yeah , and if IF was a fifth you would be drunk. We don't have that with my builders so.........


What type flange do you use and what size pipe are we talkin about? How does a 3/8" thick flange sitting on top of the pipe prevent a toilet from setting properly?


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> Whats the purpose of installing a jumbo wax??? You wouldn't need a jumbo wax if you would put the flange were its suppose to be:blink:
> 
> On a side note...do ya put the wax on the bowl and then set it or on the flange and then set the bowl?


Let me say one thing. When this thread was started it was about a toilet outlet hitting flange and rocking. I have had that problem. So I started sitting3/8 low. Never had it again. It's simple , do it that way and you won't have THAT problem. Or keep wasting time and stupid shims. Will that solve the issue for the plumber who started this topic? I think it will. And for every other screwed up toilet cast. READ MAN!! I haven't experienced that problem again


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

as long as it lasts that one year, right?


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> What type flange do you use and what size pipe are we talkin about? How does a 3/8" thick flange sitting on top of the pipe prevent a toilet from setting properly?


Good question. And the answer...it doesn't at all. I think most plumbers will agree, that a flange sitting on top of the floor has nothing to do with a rocking toilet. It is true that he probably has no problems setting the flange flush with the surface of the floor, IF he uses Jumbo wax rings, but it seems like a waste of wax to me.
Face it Justin, Themaster is right about this. The flange is SUPPOSED to sit with the bottom of the ring on top of the finished floor surface, so the top surface of the flange ring is slightly HIGHER than the floor surface.


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

service guy said:


> Good question. And the answer...it doesn't at all. I think most plumbers will agree, that a flange sitting on top of the floor has nothing to do with a rocking toilet. It is true that he probably has no problems setting the flange flush with the surface of the floor, IF he uses Jumbo wax rings, but it seems like a waste of wax to me.
> Face it Justin, Themaster is right about this. The flange is SUPPOSED to sit with the bottom of the ring on top of the finished floor surface, so the top surface of the flange ring is slightly HIGHER than the floor surface.


Guess you don't know how to read either. Go read overflows post. Would it fix it? Read this outloud. ... " I am sofa king we tod did" man !!


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

*Hey*



justin said:


> Guess you don't know how to read either. Go read everflows post. Would it fix it? Read this outloud. ... " I am sofa king we tod did" man !!


...


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

justin said:


> Guess you don't know how to read either. Go read overflows post. Would it fix it? Read this outloud. ... " I am sofa king we tod did" man !!


"Fix" :laughing: I think the professional thing to do would be get a toilet thats made proper so the flange will be correct for every correctly made toilet.


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

house plumber said:


> as long as it lasts that one year, right?


Maybe for you. But if you would read my posts I said three years.


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> "Fix" :laughing: I think the professional thing to do would be get a toilet thats made proper so the flange will be correct for every correctly made toilet.


I actually agree with that. Son of a gun!!!!!! We may see eye to eye for once now.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

justin said:


> Maybe for you. But if you would read my posts I said three years.


 
nah didnt read it. just a bunch of jibberish. sounds like a 2 year know it all helper. I've had my share of those so I just don't pay attention to it anymore. :thumbsup:


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## kenneth (Jul 3, 2010)

house plumber said:


> nah didnt read it. just a bunch of jibberish. sounds like a 2 year know it all helper. I've had my share of those so I just don't pay attention to it anymore. :thumbsup:


you wouldn't pass a masters test in texas :thumbsup:


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## kenneth (Jul 3, 2010)

house plumber said:


> nah didnt read it. just a bunch of jibberish. sounds like a 2 year know it all helper. I've had my share of those so I just don't pay attention to it anymore. :thumbsup:


if you all actually paid any attention to what this is about this wouldn't have gotten to be a pissin match... EVERY plumber does things different, as a matter of fact if you look into texas state license law and actually read into it you would find that it is illegal to put caulk around the base of a toilet. reason being that (now bear in mind that license law has no grey only black and white) if it has a leak over the bowl caulk then it isn't seen by the homeowner and will cause damage to a wood floor. there is no "clause" for concrete, illegal all the way. so recessing it would be the better way if you don't want customers to see the wobble wedges


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## luv2plumb (Apr 30, 2010)

kenneth said:


> if you all actually paid any attention to what this is about this wouldn't have gotten to be a pissin match... EVERY plumber does things different, as a matter of fact if you look into texas state license law and actually read into it you would find that it is illegal to put caulk around the base of a toilet. reason being that (now bear in mind that license law has no grey only black and white) if it has a leak over the bowl caulk then it isn't seen by the homeowner and will cause damage to a wood floor. there is no "clause" for concrete, illegal all the way. so recessing it would be the better way if you don't want customers to see the wobble wedges


I'm going to need to see a page reference on that statement.....


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

kenneth said:


> you wouldn't pass a masters test in texas :thumbsup:


 
damn now I am really upset. :furious:


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

kenneth said:


> if you all actually paid any attention to what this is about this wouldn't have gotten to be a pissin match... EVERY plumber does things different, as a matter of fact if you look into texas state license law and actually read into it you would find that it is illegal to put caulk around the base of a toilet. reason being that (now bear in mind that license law has no grey only black and white) if it has a leak over the bowl caulk then it isn't seen by the homeowner and will cause damage to a wood floor. there is no "clause" for concrete, illegal all the way. so recessing it would be the better way if you don't want customers to see the wobble wedges


so you cant take a razor knife and cut the "wobble wedge" to the point it isnt visible anymore? hum thats weird, i did it on 2 different water closets today and it worked fine.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

So, let me get this straight.

Dude is saying that the reason the wc is rocking is because the flange is making contact with the bottom of the bowl (horn)?

In order to compensate, he is intentionally installing the closet flange improperly, and too low?, and then re-compensating by installing a jumbo thick bowl wax.?

Now, would that be considered redundant?
:laughing:


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

RealLivePlumber said:


> So, let me get this straight.
> 
> Dude is saying that the reason the wc is rocking is because the flange is making contact with the bottom of the bowl (horn)?
> 
> ...


exactly. so even if the floor is a little bit off, cuz we all know the concrete gets high around pipes cuz their whirlly bird can only get so slose to our pipes and the hell if they get off of it and use a trough to level it out, he can still make his toilets not rock by installing the flange to low.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

house plumber said:


> exactly. so even if the floor is a little bit off, cuz we all know the concrete gets high around pipes cuz their whirlly bird can only get so slose to our pipes and the hell if they get off of it and use a trough to level it out, he can still make his toilets not rock by installing the flange to low.


Best way to fix that is to use 4" x 3" PVC closet elbows, or 4" elbows and leave your riser 1/4" under finished floor. Glue a wafer cap in and then the float goes right over the pipe and the floor is perfectly flat. On the trim, you glue a regular flange in the riser, or if it's a tile floor, I use spacers under a longer spigot flange and it's perfect every time. I also tapcon the flanges down.


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

jjbex said:


> Best way to fix that is to use 4" x 3" PVC closet elbows, or 4" elbows and leave your riser 1/4" under finished floor. Glue a wafer cap in and then the float goes right over the pipe and the floor is perfectly flat. On the trim, you glue a regular flange in the riser, or if it's a tile floor, I use spacers under a longer spigot flange and it's perfect every time. I also tapcon the flanges down.


i thought i was the only one that did that. ( leave them1/4" under slab) . come back with a hammer and gently tap out in front of vent. expose 4'' pipe and slide flange in. beats having to cut 350 toilet stubs/risers. i use the 1/4 by 2 tap rivets. drill 1/4' holes in concrete and hammer them in. very fast. and works like a champ. i also do it on multi story / highrises . leave down on 2nd and above floors , and after jib crete is poured you can do the same thing as the slab.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

It saves Beau-coup time. Plus the floor is flat, and the concrete has no voids, so you can anchor the flanges. I would much rather spend 2 minutes and string a line and find the FF elevation than spend all the time cutting the pipe down and chipping away around it, and then trying to fix the wobble.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

jjbex said:


> Best way to fix that is to use 4" x 3" PVC closet elbows, or 4" elbows and leave your riser 1/4" under finished floor. Glue a wafer cap in and then the float goes right over the pipe and the floor is perfectly flat. On the trim, you glue a regular flange in the riser, or if it's a tile floor, I use spacers under a longer spigot flange and it's perfect every time. I also tapcon the flanges down.


That would be ok if you knew what finished floor height was going to be. On first rough stage floor material isn't even thought of yet. We do custom homes not tract houses. Big difference


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

house plumber said:


> That would be ok if you knew what finished floor height was going to be. On first rough stage floor material isn't even thought of yet. We do custom homes not tract houses. Big difference


yeah , and i do custom 17 plus story motels not custom homes:thumbsup::laughing:BIG DIFFERENCE


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

house plumber said:


> That would be ok if you knew what finished floor height was going to be. On first rough stage floor material isn't even thought of yet. We do custom homes not tract houses. Big difference


I don't do houses, the only construction I do is in power plants, nukes or coal burners. They don't want rocking toilets, and they don't want my pipes in the way of their screeds. The screeds are the width of the whole slab. They want to set it up and let it rip. They don't mind stopping, and having about 20 guys lift it over the plumbing wall risers, once, but not for each individual toilet or floor drain.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

house plumber said:


> That would be ok if you knew what finished floor height was going to be. On first rough stage floor material isn't even thought of yet. We do custom homes not tract houses. Big difference





justin said:


> yeah , and i do custom 17 plus story motels not custom homes:thumbsup::laughing:BIG DIFFERENCE


House Plumber,
Why don't you show the young lad what a custom home looks like... :laughing:


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## liquidplumber (Dec 6, 2009)

justin said:


> yeah , and i do custom 17 plus story motels not custom homes:thumbsup::laughing:BIG DIFFERENCE


17 story motel HUH?? :blink::blink::blink:


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

liquidplumber said:


> 17 story motel HUH?? :blink::blink::blink:


A ten and three 4 stories at this time. Huh


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

liquidplumber said:


> 17 story motel HUH?? :blink::blink::blink:


Listen below at 2:20... :laughing:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

I'm way late to the party. I like fixes for chronic problems in new work. I like looking for ways to keep wasting time fixing something not my fault for free. That said , I'm a little insecure with the top of the flange being level with the ff. I suppose being commercial and concrete with a jumbo ring if things dont move it will last 3yrs etc. 
Why not set washers under the flange when tap'n down and gain an 1/8 or so.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Redwood said:


> House Plumber,
> Why don't you show the young lad what a custom home looks like... :laughing:


Sorry I was out. But if it makes you register its free. Scroll down from number 11 to 14. and view the slide shows to each

http://www.housetrends.com/Search/index.php?urlprefix=%2F&search=&mod=CoreSearch&query=baumgart


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

And the news paper article that came after the house was finished.

http://www.sptimes.com/2006/05/23/news_pf/Business/Mansion_owners_find_r.shtml


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Wow House Plumber that's a lot of custom home...:thumbup:

I wonder if it's worth more than a 17 story No-Tell Motel owned by Mr.Patel...:laughing:


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## justin (May 14, 2010)

house plumber said:


> Sorry I was out. But if it makes you register its free. Scroll down from number 11 to 14. and view the slide shows to each
> 
> http://www.housetrends.com/Search/index.php?urlprefix=%2F&search=&mod=CoreSearch&query=baumgart


nice. i see you are a successful pllumber. truly nice jobs to be on . thank you for the pictures/ slide shows.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

stillaround said:


> I'm way late to the party. I like fixes for chronic problems in new work. I like looking for ways to keep wasting time fixing something not my fault for free. That said , I'm a little insecure with the top of the flange being level with the ff. I suppose being commercial and concrete with a jumbo ring if things dont move it will last 3yrs etc.
> Why not set washers under the flange when tap'n down and gain an 1/8 or so.


 You could also put a flange entension or two, under the flange,(not on top) before you glue it on, which acts like a shim, to raise the flange up in 1/4" increments, & supports the bottom of flange continuously, rather than just where the washers are at. I've done this several times on remod jobs, or where the customer was going to install the finish, & wanted flange installed on rough.


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

If the toilet is rocking don't bother knocking.


Only Stevie Ray fans will get that.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Don The Plumber said:


> You could also put a flange entension or two, under the flange,(not on top) before you glue it on, which acts like a shim, to raise the flange up in 1/4" increments, & supports the bottom of flange continuously, rather than just where the washers are at. I've done this several times on remod jobs, or where the customer was going to install the finish, & wanted flange installed on rough.


I do this on remodels where they aren't sure about the floor. I dryfit a flange, then if the elevation changes, I put the spacers under the flange, glue it, and tapcon it.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

With 4" pipe I stub up high and let the tile man run his tile to the pipe. Then cut the pipe off flush with the top of the tile and install a inside 4" flange. Any voids get filled with fast setting cement and the flange gets anchored to the structure.


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## Everflow (Feb 1, 2010)

Why not just screw the flange to the floor(sheet rock screws) put a horned wax ring and a regular wax ring, ,collect your money and go home.:whistling2:


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

flange placement has nothing to do with rocking toilets unless it too high. Rocking toilets is all about floor levelness.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

I install my flanges 5'' below the floor, use 4 jumbo wax seals with horns, a little putty just to make sure, then caulk toilet base with liquid nails.

Never one problem.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

pauliplumber said:


> I install my flanges 5'' below the floor, use 4 jumbo wax seals with horns, a little putty just to make sure, then caulk toilet base with liquid nails.
> 
> Never one problem.


What, no hydraulic cement?


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Everflow said:


> Why not just screw the flange to the floor(sheet rock screws) put a horned wax ring and a regular wax ring, ,collect your money and go home.:whistling2:


Would you trust that on a second floor? I wouldn't


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