# Pro's and Con's of the Union (UA)?



## user8031 (Dec 14, 2011)

What are the Pros' and Con's of the UA? Are you missing out if your not UA?

Tell me your take of being in the union or NOT in the union. Thanks.


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

I'm pretty sure there was a thread about this before:whistling2:


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

That's a touchy subject round here.


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

It's gonna get real ugly in here soon as the union guys get home and on the net :laughing:


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

I'm stayin outta this 1 lol.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Should reword your thread to

Who are the pros and cons of the union

Sent from my portable office....yes I am at work


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> Should reword your thread to
> 
> Who are the pros and cons of the union
> 
> Sent from my portable office....yes I am at work


See now you know thats gonna start something :laughing:


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## 130 PLUMBER (Oct 22, 2009)

Pros:

$$$ to be made, that's if your not on the bench
Pension Fund
401(k) Savings
Healthcare benefits 
THE BEST Apprenticeship program. Get paid to learn from the best.


Cons:

No work no $$$$


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

130 PLUMBER said:


> Pros:
> 
> $$$ to be made, that's if your not on the bench
> Pension Fund
> ...


Ok that's for employees what about the employer? Besides the obvious access to qualified workers.


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## 130 PLUMBER (Oct 22, 2009)

tungsten plumb said:


> qualified workers.


 Well said!!!! I'll let you know somtime next year


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

130 PLUMBER said:


> Pros:
> 
> $$$ to be made, that's if your not on the bench
> Pension Fund
> ...


 I'm with you on the Apprenticeship program.


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## Turd Chaser (Dec 1, 2011)

Having worked both non union and union, the training is hands down better in the union. The overall benefits are better and if you have a decent union employer you can be paid over scale (which I am currently $1.25 over scale)

The non union douche that I worked for wasn't even a plumber, he was an engineer who wrote his master's and started his own shop. No concern for anyones safety. Worked over 24 hours straight several times. No confined space equipment (when going into septic take to replace baffles). He was a DOUCHE...


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## Mathyou (Oct 20, 2011)

If you're going to post on the subject I think you should declare if you're a United Association member or not.

I personally am a UA member.

Pros:

-Hands down the best apprenticeship program you will find. The training tools and classes made available to you are second to none. (This can vary depending on the Local you join). On average a person who has gone through the UA apprenticeship program will be far better trained over there non-union counterpart (again there are incompetent morons both union and non-union though).

-Collectively bargained wages. Unions set the market for non-union worker's wages as well. I find Union wages tend to be on average $10-12 an hour higher than the union counterpart in the same area.

-Amazing retirement plan. You get a 401k along with a pension.

-Amazing health care. This can depend on what local you join.

-Great resources for education past employment. We have constant classes made available to journeymen (cross-connection, welding, osha, ect...)

-When work is good and you are laid-off the union could usually provide you with another job in a few days. Again in times like these you can be waiting over a year for that next job.

-Good working conditions. Your boss cannot ask you to provide your own tools or truck (past a handful of hand tools) and cannot ask you to work overtime or holidays for straight-time.

Cons:

-When new construction is down you're no going to be making any of the above benefits.

-You pay dues to your union (we pay %3 off our paychecks). This does cover all the costs at your hall the provide resources for you though (including your educational resources).

-You will find it harder to work in the service industry which has far steadier employment in tough times.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Mathyou said:


> If you're going to post on the subject I think you should declare if you're a United Association member or not.


 So the opinions of the unwashed don't count, eh?

Thanks. Brother.


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

I see the union guys are getting uppity:laughing:


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

I am non union, and wouldn't have it any other way, just my opinion.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

When I started plumbing it was with a non-union shop. We'd wear shorts on the job, (new construction), take off our T-shirts, not wear hard hats or safety goggles, little to no safety training, etc.

When I went into the UA, local 630, we wore hard-hats, gloves and eye-goggles during new construction (mandatory). Safety training was mandatory. And all the other benefits that the other posts state: pension, ability to get cross-trained in other trades at the JATC (joint apprenticeship training c.... I forget what the 'c' stands for...:laughing You get the point. If I want to go at night to study HVAC, welding, etc, all that is available at the local union training center without the high fees that you'd have to pay elsewhere.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I can man a large job with qualified people. When the job wraps up, they get sent back to the hall. 

It's like a skilled worker temp. agency.......


I carry one man consitently. The rest come and go as needed.

Win win for me.....


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

tungsten plumb said:


> Ok that's for employees what about the employer? Besides the obvious access to qualified workers.


Qualified workers.....lol id say maybe 20-30 percent are qualified.


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

NYC Plumber said:


> Qualified workers.....lol id say maybe 20-30 percent are qualified.


Lol I think its higher than that. They have to know more than a guy who's coming from Roto Rooter or Ben Franklin :laughing:


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Ya buddy Silicone or Putty. Copper or pex. Move on, what difference does it make of the pros and cons?
Every "plumber" is different wether organized or not. You have douches and great mechanics on either side.
Kind of like comparing oranges to apples, what works for you may not work for the person beside you.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

IMO as long as the work looks good and performs correctly who cares if union or non union did it.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## Turd Chaser (Dec 1, 2011)

Mississippiplum said:


> IMO as long as the work looks good and performs correctly who cares if union or non union did it.
> 
> sent from the jobsite porta-potty


 
Well said...

A douche is a douche and a skilled tradesman is a skilled tradesman whether they are organized or not


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## mssp (Dec 15, 2009)

I am non union but wish I made that hourly pay. The one thing I hate about union guys is they never use union trades on their own projects. i know because I have plumbed many of large custom homes for union guys that criticized me every move I made. But hey other than that it has to be good.


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

mssp said:


> I am non union but wish I made that hourly pay. The one thing I hate about union guys is they never use union trades on their own projects. i know because I have plumbed many of large custom homes for union guys that criticized me every move I made. But hey other than that it has to be good.


And not just on the small stuff I have done work for the port facilities, hospitals and labs it doesn't matter, I started out working for an open shop at one of the local universities we used to have the union company come down the hill to learn about our medi gas program and other piping practices. 

What does it matter if your UA or CLAC if your on the bench your not working either way. Sure the union shops may have access to more guys but when that big job finishes the 50-75 guys who were there working proudly are now at home playing Xbox for the next 3-6 months waiting for the hall to call.


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## Lmp (Oct 17, 2011)

All I can say is I'm non union and have never been out of work in 22 years! 16 years in one non union shop and 6 years on my own. I know alot of union guys and for some reason they're always asking me if I have work for them. Also many years ago my old boss contacted the union in NYC about becoming union to give us employees better benefits and all the other union perks. But was told that if he became union he would have to fire all his guys and hire guys on the bench. He told the union to go f themselves and from that point on for about a year we were harassed by the union ( followed to jobs,supply houses etc.) now you tell me was that really right for the union to do that???? And by the way I really have no problem with unions or non union I just don't like people!!! Lol


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

NYC Plumber said:


> Qualified workers.....lol id say maybe 20-30 percent are qualified.


 I'd put a years wages on the average union trained plumber knowing their trade better than the average open shop trained plumber any day.


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## Lmp (Oct 17, 2011)

playme1979 said:


> I'd put a years wages on the average union trained plumber knowing their trade against the average open shop trained plumber any day.


And let the games begin!!!!!!


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

playme1979 said:


> I'd put a years wages on the average union trained plumber knowing their trade better than the average open shop trained plumber any day.


Ehh i'll say 35 percent then and Only 5 percent of that are good dependable plumbers who can build a job and care about their work.
Ive seen plenty of both sides, im just saying the good union workers are rare (fact).
The pompus attitude is probably 90 percent though.
In nyc you have A plumbers and B plumbers. B pumbers are for service work.
If the union really gave a damn they wouldn't seperate their members like that.
Doesn't matter anyway because in about 5 years everything will be nonunion.
Just go to brooklyn and see all the highrises being built nonunion, mostly because its very obvious how overpaid they are (about $105 an hour total package) what a joke.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

NYC Plumber said:


> Ehh i'll say 35 percent then and Only 5 percent of that are good dependable plumbers who can build a job and care about their work.
> Ive seen plenty of both sides, im just saying the good union workers are rare (fact).
> The pompus attitude is probably 90 percent though.
> In nyc you have A plumbers and B plumbers. B pumbers are for service work.
> ...


I couldnt agree more.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

I'm not talking about hourly wages, I'm talking about overall training , code, pipe sizing , proper installation of the proper material for the job, osha training , job site safety the list could go on and on


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## Lmp (Oct 17, 2011)

NYC Plumber said:


> Ehh i'll say 35 percent then and Only 5 percent of that are good dependable plumbers who can build a job and care about their work.
> Ive seen plenty of both sides, im just saying the good union workers are rare (fact).
> The pompus attitude is probably 90 percent though.
> In nyc you have A plumbers and B plumbers. B pumbers are for service work.
> ...


Well said!!!! But I say it's 99.9% pompous attitude. Lol!!!


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

Are you the guys who couldn't pass the entrance exams ?


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

playme1979 said:


> Are you the guys who couldn't pass the entrance exams ?


Lol LMP here buddy.
When you run a business u see it from a different angle thats all.
Came up through the union.. 3rd generation union plumber.


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## Lmp (Oct 17, 2011)

playme1979 said:


> I'm not talking about hourly wages, I'm talking about overall training , code, pipe sizing , proper installation of the proper material for the job, osha training , job site safety the list could go on and on


Have you ever worked in a good non union shop???


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

playme1979 said:


> I'm not talking about hourly wages, I'm talking about overall training , code, pipe sizing , proper installation of the proper material for the job, osha training , job site safety the list could go on and on


If you study you will learn that stuff. When u take the toal package its not worth it.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

Lmp said:


> Well said!!!! But I say it's 99.9% pompous attitude. Lol!!!


I was trying to be nice lol


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## Lmp (Oct 17, 2011)

playme1979 said:


> Are you the guys who couldn't pass the entrance exams ?


Sorry pal! Master plumber in NYC, westchester and Putnam county's !!! Passed all exams first time not like most of the union guys that I know!!!!


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

And i never even considered entering the union so, I never even took an entrance exam.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

Lmp said:


> Have you ever worked in a good non union shop???


I was trained by my great grandfather and my father neither one was union , I came up in hospital work all over the state of Texas . For a large Nonunion plumbing company by the name of Mechanical Interiors INC. I didn't join the Union till about 10 years ago. So yes I have worked for a good nonunion shop.My father now is union and works for me out of our office in the DFW area.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

playme1979 said:


> I was trained by my great grandfather and my father neither one was union , I came up in hospital work all over the state of Texas . For a large Nonunion plumbing company by the name of Mechanical Interiors INC. I didn't join the Union till about 10 years ago. So yes I have worked for a good nonunion shop.My father now is union and works for me out of our office in the DFW area.


Maybe union workers are better there?


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

What is dfw area?


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

Lmp said:


> Sorry pal! Master plumber in NYC, westchester and Putnam county's !!! Passed all exams first time not like most of the union guys that I know!!!!


 Are you an average nonunion trained plumber???? dallas,fort worth


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## Lmp (Oct 17, 2011)

playme1979 said:


> I was trained by my great grandfather and my father neither one was union , I came up in hospital work all over the state of Texas . For a large Nonunion plumbing company by the name of Mechanical Interiors INC. I didn't join the Union till about 10 years ago. So yes I have worked for a good nonunion shop.My father now is union and works for me out of our office in the DFW area.


So you was trained by non union guys(your father and great grandfather) so how can you say union guys are better??? Are you saying they didn't train you good enough???? I'm confused?


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## Mathyou (Oct 20, 2011)

playme1979 said:


> I'd put a years wages on the average union trained plumber knowing their trade better than the average open shop trained plumber any day.



I like how it started with "Oh no, wait until the Union guys are going to start stuff..." yet it has been the union people being civil and simply giving facts while a couple un-organized guys are running their mouths off without knowing what they're talking about.

When I took my state licensing test you could tell who was union or non-union simply from the quality of work produced on the drawing and practical project portions of the test. The majority of union trained guys produced much better work (on average) and were able to grasp and finish the task much quicker as well. Our hall passes 95% of our members on the first try for the state plumbing exam (this includes the pipefitters who take the test simply to hold a plumbing license, who have never worked a day in their life plumbing). The average passing rate for all involved it around 70%.




NYC Plumber said:


> Qualified workers.....lol id say maybe 20-30 percent are qualified.


I provided facts that prove just the opposite. Even current non-union guys who might have came up through the JATC program are admitting the training is hands down second to none. You're just spitting bull-crap that has no factual evidence to back it up.

Must have been one of the morons who could not pass the elementary level exams needed to get into the UA, or were one of the morons who couldn't cut it and were weeded out during your probationary period as an apprentice.



NYC Plumber said:


> What is dfw area?


Seems like I was correct in my "moron" assessment.


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

Lmp said:


> So you was trained by non union guys(your father and great grandfather) so how can you say union guys are better??? Are you saying they didn't train you good enough???? I'm confused?



I don't have the time to explain if YOU can't read my post and understand but I will try . I SAID I'd put a years wages on the AVERAGE UNION trained plumber knowing their trade better than the AVERAGE OPEN SHOP trained plumber any day.


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## Lmp (Oct 17, 2011)

playme1979 said:


> Are you an average nonunion trained plumber???? dallas,fort worth


Yup I'm a average licensed master plumber!!! And also like you I was trained by my nonunion father!


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

Let me clarify a little better for ya if you have enough knowledge and get up and go to open your own company and run a successful business your not average , I would have to say your above average. Now as for the training I received from my grandfather and father it was above average because they are above average plumbers and the company I worked for before I went union trained us very well classes every 2 weeks. 99 percent of nonunion plumbing company's out there couldn't give [email protected]#ts about an apprenticeship program.If I came across as bashing nonunion that wasn't my intention ,but what I'm saying is the Union training program is 2nd to None and I will stand behind what I said ( I'd put a years wages on the average union trained plumber knowing their trade better than the average open shop trained plumber any day.)


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

playme1979 said:


> Let me clarify a little better for ya if you have enough knowledge and get up and go to open your own company and run a successful business your not average , I would have to say your above average. Now as for the training I received from my grandfather and father it was above average because they are above average plumbers and the company I worked for before I went union trained us very well classes every 2 weeks 99 percent of nonunion plumbing company's out there couldn't give [email protected]#ts about an apprenticeship program.If I came across as bashing nonunion that wasn't my intention ,but what I'm saying is the Union training program is 2nd to None


I agree but i don't think the results are there... For the training they go through there should be easier to find a higher quality product.


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## Lmp (Oct 17, 2011)

Anyway guys it's been special starting trouble I love busting balls!!!! Really this is and always has been a touchy subject the great union nonunion debate!!!! Really I don't care if you are or aren't cause in the end We all do the same job plumbing!!! I love busting balls! Didn't mean to offend anybody!!!


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## Lmp (Oct 17, 2011)

wyefortyfive said:


> What are the Pros' and Con's of the UA? Are you missing out if your not UA?
> 
> Tell me your take of being in the union or NOT in the union. Thanks.


See what you started!!!!!! Lol !!


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

This about the most stupid topic anybody that can post

Starting a thread that will for sure cause conflict between our plumbing brothers is idiotic

In the ever last words of Rodney King
"Why can't we all get along"

There is no us against them.... It's all in your minds

So smarten up and get back to a civil topic

Sent from my portable office....yes I am at work


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## Mathyou (Oct 20, 2011)

Lmp said:


> See what you started!!!!!! Lol !!


Acatully everything was fine until NYCPlumber decided to run his mouth. You were simply given an open opinion from union and non-union guys without conflict until some self-entitled moron decided to start crap.


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

I take no offense to anything that was stated in this thread from anyone , I have very thick skin from working with my father.He wanted to make sure I was always able to put up with anyone's BS and he done a pretty good job of it.


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## user8031 (Dec 14, 2011)

OldSchool said:


> This about the most stupid topic anybody that can post
> 
> Starting a thread that will for sure cause conflict between our plumbing brothers is idiotic
> 
> ...


If someone cannot stand to listen to another persons input and opinion...TOUGH!! 

i also feel you are using the word "stupid" without much thought.

if you cannot handle it....GTFOH!!


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

wyefortyfive said:


> If someone cannot stand to listen to another persons input and opinion...TOUGH!!
> 
> i also feel you are using the word "stupid" without much thought.
> 
> if you cannot handle it....GTFOH!!


Stupid could be applied to your above comment as well.....it has many uses... 

Once you grow up .... You might realize that

Sent from my portable office....yes I am at work


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## user8031 (Dec 14, 2011)

OldSchool said:


> Stupid could be applied to your above comment as well.....it has many uses...
> 
> Once you grow up .... You might realize that
> 
> Sent from my portable office....yes I am at work


:thumbup:


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Who gives a shiot...


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

playme1979 said:


> I don't have the time to explain if YOU can't read my post and understand but I will try . I SAID I'd put a years wages on the AVERAGE UNION trained plumber knowing their trade better than the AVERAGE OPEN SHOP trained plumber any day.


I'll take that bet... 

Show me the money


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

Plumberman said:


> I'll take that bet...
> 
> Show me the money


You have already lost the BET before it began . The studies have already been done. Union trained against Nonunion trained is no contest on average.THE KEY WORD IS ON A V E R A G E.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

I fully understand your AVERAGE 

I offered to take that bet because I'm above average. 

Union trained and proud of it, call it whatever they will. The non union guys around here can't hang with us and they know it. 

Theres your "pompous" attitude. 

I will continue to make top dollar for my area and continue to produce on a daily basis.

If guys don't want to be Union more power to them...


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Ummm.....as far as the 401k and pension......if you put $5.00 away every day when you start your apprenticeship when you are 76 you would have about 19 million dollars with only $240,000 invested.....after you take out a percentage for the corrupt politicians, the mob, the democrat party, the mayor, the influential alderman, the union operations fund and the numerous lobbying contingency funds, and the picket line lunch fund.... how much is left.......

The rank and file are just like real people...the BA's are a morph'd version of humanity....and I cant comment on the leadership.......where is Jimmy Hoffa????????


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

I agree with ya plumberman , I'm local 68


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

stillaround said:


> Ummm.....as far as the 401k and pension......if you put $5.00 away every day when you start your apprenticeship when you are 76 you would have about 19 million dollars with only $240,000 invested.....after you take out a percentage for the corrupt politicians, the mob, the democrat party, the mayor, the influential alderman, the union operations fund and the numerous lobbying contingency funds, and the picket line lunch fund.... how much is left.......
> 
> The rank and file are just like real people...the BA's are a morph'd version of humanity....and I cant comment on the leadership.......where is Jimmy Hoffa????????



I tell you what compare the pension of a nonunion hourly worker to a union worker , enough said :laughing:


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> I fully understand your AVERAGE
> 
> I offered to take that bet because I'm above average.
> 
> ...


An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. http:// www.plumbingzone.com/f3/. The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession) Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field. This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is. We look forward to your valuable input.

:thumbup:

I know Kung Fu!


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

playme1979 said:


> I tell you what compare the pension of a nonunion hourly worker to a union worker , enough said :laughing:


Just having fun....I came from Chicago....and unions make Chicago go...


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

U666A said:


> An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. http:// www.plumbingzone.com/f3/. The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession) Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field. This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is. We look forward to your valuable input.
> 
> :thumbup:
> 
> I know Kung Fu!


Really?

I haven't updated my app and I still have my ban button... It WILL work one day!


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

...


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

...


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

...


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Plumbers Putty! :thumbup:


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

I just read a con about the union on another thread.

The union member couldnt make enuff money to support his family.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> After re-reading your question, I believe there is already a fundamental problem with you. This is either because of your own nature, or because of stupid people you have listened to. In between the lines of your question I see a bit of the "grass is greener" (GIG) syndrome.
> 
> This is a common ailment amongst plumbers. Even with some of the seasoned ones. We always think everybody has a better deal. Why? Because everybody is telling us how great they are doing. So to combat these feelings, plumbers tell of all there successes (even if they are lies) when they see other guys at the supply house. Heaven forbid they admit they are keeping a job that is not as good as yours.
> 
> ...





plbgbiz said:


> Gramps was big in the union. I never was. Either course is right if you're the right guy. Both avenues produce slugs and both produce Professional Plumbers. Again, that will be more up to you than the group you join.
> 
> Organized training will be very thorough but a small Non-Organized shop will get you from here to there much faster. If you have a desire to be on commercial new construction (especially BIG projects) then a union shop might be best. If you are more apt to enjoy residential work (especially service), then you might be better off in a non-union shop.
> 
> ...


Some thoughts from a couple of recent Organized vs. Dis-Organized threads...

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/union-vs-non-union-13068/index2/#post174833

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/need-some-help-15271/index2/#post208930

In my never-to-be-humble opinion, there is only one purpose served by Organized labor today (except for commercial new construction training). It levels the playing field for its workers. Just like grading on a curve in school. The above average are penalized, the below average are rewarded, and the average are oblivious to the other two.

In a Dis-Organized environment, you receive your just reward based on YOU and YOU alone.


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## evilcyrus (Apr 27, 2009)

I'm Non union..... i have thought about going up handing in a app and seeing if i can get in one day . i have thought ... it would be a good idea but then again i dont wanna to be sitting at home ,or sent home. i've worked on many many sites were everyone was union except us the plumbers. they start same time as us in am ..... working along then break and they all dissapear they would come back and give us **** for not stopping work. freak out when we didn't take our lunch's , if we worked past 3:00 ish we were like devils.... ahahha yah we stirred up a good pot on one job we worked hard mon-thurs and took fridays off still did 40+ hrs and we were ahead.. this is really the only reason why the union scares me i like working enjoy what i do and if i'm in the middle of something i dont like just stopping and have to wait to continue on. Gettr done! i duno maybe a union person here can shed some light for me. i would be in local 67


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Any more insults and this thread will be closed...

If you can't argue a point without calling people names, don't post...

Thanks.


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## 907plumber (Mar 13, 2010)

My first year as an apprentice was in the union. Well I worked about 6 months of that year. I really liked the training they had, and up here they even have a dedicated school. 

Ive worked with some union guys who were in the trade the same amount of time as me and I'll admit they have more well rounded knowledge than I did.

I would have stayed in but they kicked me out! I missed a drug test while I was laid off, missed it by 12 hours. They considered that a fail then put me on a special drug testing program where I had to call in every day for a year  to see if I had to take a drug test. If I did I had to pay for it.

SO I did that for about 6 months, took a few drug tests, passed them, then started the appeal process. THey didnt want to remove me from the drug program and about a month later I missed another drug test. I was laid off and out hunting and couldnt get a cell signal to call in. Any way they kicked me out but said if I took drug counseling and passed I might be considered for re-enrollment. Good Greif. I dont do drugs!

Well there is my sad story! I wish it would have worked out there for me.


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## Schedule40 (Aug 5, 2010)

Dfw= Dallas/Ft. Worth


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

Why are we fighting amongst ourselves? We should be talking about how much we dislike those damn sparkys and wood chuckers :laughing:


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

I've heard horror stories about the union's up north I don't know if their true, but I can say the plumbers local I'm out of isn't like the one's I've heard about. I can hire and fire at will , I have union plumbers and nonunion plumbers at times working for me . All my helpers are nonunion because of the work we do and we work mostly in north texas and the local is in south texas so it would be hard for our helpers to travel to go to school every other weekend and the agreement the owner has with the UA supercedes local jurisdiction anywhere in the state of texas . I still say the training in the locals is 2nd to none.When these journeyman turn out they are prepared with the knowledge they need to do their job.


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## azmike (Feb 3, 2010)

You guys sure argue alot are any of you licensed?


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## evilcyrus (Apr 27, 2009)

licensed what for ........... i'm a **** depo boy .. being licensed just means u know whats right and wrong.... ahahhahaaha


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## azmike (Feb 3, 2010)

Well next time you get a sore throat come on over and i'll pull your tonsils for ya! No Charge! No ****!


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Airgap said:


> Any more insults and this thread will be closed...
> 
> If you can't argue a point without calling people names, don't post...
> 
> Thanks.


Hence why I retracted mine. Apologies and I will bow out of this one.

I know Kung Fu!


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

This thread was just started yesterday and already has 85 posts on it. I think thats a record lol.

sent from the jobsite porta-potty


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

As a non union guy the thought of someone being judged as better than me by the time in is repulsive. I'll take being judged by my work. 

One question for you union guys, do you guys do service? Knowing code by heart is nice but that's not trouble shooting or dealing with what you find in the hole.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

I do service and new construction on a daily basis.


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## 130 PLUMBER (Oct 22, 2009)

Service!!


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

DesertOkie said:


> As a non union guy the thought of someone being judged as better than me by the time in is repulsive. I'll take being judged by my work.
> 
> One question for you union guys, do you guys do service? Knowing code by heart is nice but that's not trouble shooting or dealing with what you find in the hole.



I do service work, remodels and new construction.


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## okcplum (Jul 16, 2011)

This thread is a very touchy subject I think.
I'm non union and class my self as above average in the field.
We all did our time to become master plumbers and read the ipc, upc, ifgc etc. I think if you want to further your education that's great, I do so at my own cost and am very happy I did so.
Solar has been a real benefit to my company and I have training for this every 3 years.
Now when it comes to work standards and quality of work I know I can stand with the best when it comes to installs. 
I always work with a 3mm tolerance on bends and measurements when it comes to my copper pipe work.
This thread should be closed as people can't play nice.
I don't know if union plumbers have a harder test to gain there master license as non union.
If we all sit the same test and pass don't that mean we are equally qualified ?
I understand that not everyone wants to memorize the code books and I also know the difference between educated and educated idiots but we all can just refer to the code books and check what's right and wrong according to code.
And if that all fails the inspector can always tell you to redo the job the right way according to code, depending on what year code they are working from.
All I'm saying is that if you passed your tests and can hold your own in the field that's all good.
One thing for sure though, if your a bad plumber and working alone you will never be busy as word of mouth will destroy you if your work is poor.
I have plenty of work and it just keeps coming in.
Guys, we all p*** in the same bucket so don't try kicking it over as some one always gets covered in p***.
Let's all just play nice together or I'm taking my action man figures in the house and not playing.


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## bartnc37 (Feb 24, 2009)

There's good and bad plumbers both union and non union and benefits to both depending on your situation. What would help the unions a lot from a PR perspective would be to put a lid on some of their members. I personally know several UA plumbers that I would call exceptional at what they do. They go in and do their jobs and do them well. Hell I've known these guys for years and I bet the subject of $ or benefits had probably been brought up once.
The problem, and the UA guys I know have stated as much, is the loud mouth jerk offs that sit around screaming" UA local *** rules" while they sit on their preferred bar stool, bucket, school bleacher and brag about how much $ they make and how they do half the work to get it at every opportunity. These types may be the gross exception to the rule but they're also the portion that makes themselves the most visible to the public and in doing so make the whole group look bad.


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## user8031 (Dec 14, 2011)

bartnc37 said:


> There's good and bad plumbers both union and non union and benefits to both depending on your situation. What would help the unions a lot from a PR perspective would be to put a lid on some of their members. I personally know several UA plumbers that I would call exceptional at what they do. They go in and do their jobs and do them well. Hell I've known these guys for years and I bet the subject of $ or benefits had probably been brought up once.
> The problem, and the UA guys I know have stated as much, is the loud mouth jerk offs that sit around screaming" UA local *** rules" while they sit on their preferred bar stool, bucket, school bleacher and brag about how much $ they make and how they do half the work to get it at every opportunity. These types may be the gross exception to the rule but they're also the portion that makes themselves the most visible to the public and in doing so make the whole group look bad.


Well said Sir.


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## Castiron (May 4, 2010)

Depends where you are. Here in Vancouver the public training in the apprentice ship programs is excellent. The on the job stuff depends on the company (And yourself) of course. Most big empl have health care plans here to my knowledge. 

I estimate 90% of jobs here are non union. Also the union here doesn't recognise non union hours for your apprenticeship (This happened to a friend of mine). I chose to be able to work for 90% of the jobs and get my app done rather than waiting for someone to tell me at the Union office if I have work for 2 weeks

This is very different for steamfitters and pipefitters of course (More industrial).

Please don't hate me!


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

Airgap said:


> Any more insults and this thread will be closed...
> 
> If you can't argue a point without calling people names, don't post...
> 
> Thanks.


I concur!!!

Let's stop the separation and get back to the topic.

I have a question...

What are your opinions (union and non-union) on how Davis-Bacon has affected your life.

Do you feel that it's beneficial or malicious to your present/future status as a union/non-union plumber?

Any thoughts appreciated!


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

6th Density said:


> I concur!!!
> 
> Let's stop the separation and get back to the topic.
> 
> ...


 




Is that the prevailing wage law? I think so but I can't recall for sure.


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> Is that the prevailing wage law? I think so but I can't recall for sure.




http://www.dol.gov/whd/contracts/dbra.htm

all about the davis-bacon act


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> Is that the prevailing wage law? I think so but I can't recall for sure.


It regulates/standardizes the military construction wage around here. Plumbers wage can fluxuate from 15.50 per hour to 30 dollars an hour depending on what military base your bidding on.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis%E2%80%93Bacon_Act




Here's something interseting, Ron Paul tried to repeal the Davis Bacon Act. And George W. suspended it in some states after hurricane Katrina hit.


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

playme1979 said:


> http://www.dol.gov/whd/contracts/dbra.htm
> 
> all about the davis-bacon act


And you can actually search this website to see the prevailing wage for any county in any state.

http://www.wdol.gov/dba.aspx#3

The prevailing wage is based off of various factors! Mainly including the average wage of the public sector for that area. Which, *correct me if I'm wrong*, seems like it based off the average of both the union and non-union wages.

At least it gives you a good wage calculator for what to expect if to are working in unknown territory.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I may be in a very small minority but I'm not a fan of the DB Act. Like many advancements for workers made by labor unions, I believe the real benefits of the DB Act have long passed. The righteousness of any involvement by the US government in overseeing private enterprise should be viewed as guilty till proven innocent.

In today's world I believe we can thank the DB Act mentality for our government's famous $50 hammers and $100 toilet seats.

Beyond insuring that all workers are "LEGAL" citizens and licensed in their trade, I prefer the free market to determine prices rather than the availability of tax payer money.


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## drs (Jun 17, 2011)

The DB Act is a slap in the face for a UNION PLUMBER.

Why let the DB ACT keep their pay down so low ?


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

Castiron said:


> Depends where you are. Here in Vancouver the public training in the apprentice ship programs is excellent. The on the job stuff depends on the company (And yourself) of course. Most big empl have health care plans here to my knowledge.
> 
> I estimate 90% of jobs here are non union. Also the union here doesn't recognise non union hours for your apprenticeship (This happened to a friend of mine). I chose to be able to work for 90% of the jobs and get my app done rather than waiting for someone to tell me at the Union office if I have work for 2 weeks
> 
> ...


So true, when I first went to join local 170 as a 2nd year apprentice, they told me welcome to the union we'll take your your union dues now, but we expect you to go work non union for a few years as we have no work right now, this was told to me by the BA. 

Our company has the wages based on the union rate, and we are busier then shīt, I have been working 10-14 a day, and will be unless we can find another 10-15 guys. I do both service and construction.

That said there are some decent work projects starting like 8 billion dollar ship building contract, the new aluminum smelter, the LNG plant, plus all the other camp jobs coming online.


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## drs (Jun 17, 2011)

I have a question:

Why all the hate from Union Plumbers towards Non Union Plumbers and shops?

What caused this?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

drs said:


> I have a question:
> 
> Why all the hate from Union Plumbers towards Non Union Plumbers and shops?
> 
> What caused this?


It goes both ways drs.

There are no innocents in this argument.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> It goes both ways drs.
> 
> There are no innocents in this argument.


 I've never had my van keyed and my mirrors broken off by a Non-Union Plumber for daring to enter a Union jobsite.

I'm just sayin'. . . . .


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> I've never had my van keyed and my mirrors broken off by a Non-Union Plumber for daring to enter a Union jobsite.
> 
> I'm just sayin'. . . . .


Very true Mr. Shins.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

Widdershins said:


> I've never had my van keyed and my mirrors broken off by a Non-Union Plumber for daring to enter a Union jobsite.
> 
> I'm just sayin'. . . . .


 I havent either. However I have seen non union mostly illegal alliean drywallers go on strike shut down the 91 freeway and one guy was shot. 
I think we all know bad people that belong to a union and we know bad people that are non union. So I dont see your point.
Heres a comparison Id like to know! If you took a poll of all the prison inmates . How many belong to a union and how many dont.

As for the davis bacon act I belive it prevents competion by artificialy creating a set wage . I belive it keeps non union off government jobs and doesent nessesarily help union in the long run because their wage is kept high preventing the union shop from competing on non government jobs


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

jeffreyplumber said:


> I think we all know bad people that belong to a union and we know bad people that are non union. So I dont see your point.


 My point was that I've never had a Non-Union Plumber key my van or break off my mirrors for daring to park my rig onsite.

The irony for me is, even though my shop is considered open, I'm still a dues paying member of the Local 26, as are my Guys -- And have been for over 30 years.


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## EricS (May 2, 2010)

I have been in a union now for almost three years. When I first got in I was very happy as I thought that I had made the right decision to support my family. Now I am having to make the decision on whether or not to now find a job at an open shop again or try to wait a little longer and see if another union job comes along. 
If work was steady a union is always the way to go. Just the cost of healthcare for your family at an open shop is a huge chunk of your monthly income. Also if you ever plan on retiring having a pension is also kind of a sweet deal. 
The training is very good for some classes, there are also quite a few that are a complete waste of time. You have to take the good with the bad but it is still way better than anything I ever received working at open shops. 
One thing that I was not expecting was that someone who comes in like I did with lots of experience is still at a disadvantage because I did not know anyone. I know that this will change eventually and my work will start to speak for itself, just do not know if I will be around that long.
It is also a nice feeling that if you do not meet the required hours to receive a pension credit that all of the money that you put in just disappears. 
I think that the union is a great idea, maybe in years past it worked better. I think that unless some changes start to be made that  membership is going to continue to decline and the pension that used to be so appealing is going to start looking more and more like the social security system. 
Maybe it is time to get a job working for the government, they have been broke for years and all of their employees keep getting checks.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

No one broke my mirror off union or non union . And if they did I would not attribute it to there union or non union affiliation. 
If you got your vehicle vandelized it was a result of crime. I may be misinterpeting but you sound as if you are accusing union members as being criminals. So if thats what your saying and want to bad mouth all union members just say so.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

jeffreyplumber said:


> I havent either. However I have seen non union mostly illegal alliean drywallers go on strike shut down the 91 freeway and one guy was shot.
> I think we all know bad people that belong to a union and we know bad people that are non union. So I dont see your point.
> Heres a comparison Id like to know! If you took a poll of all the prison inmates . How many belong to a union and how many dont.
> 
> As for the davis bacon act I belive it prevents competion by artificialy creating a set wage . I belive it keeps non union off government jobs and doesent nessesarily help union in the long run because their wage is kept high preventing the union shop from competing on non government jobs



I didn't even know the jailbirds had organized.

I interpreted Mr. Shinns comment to mean people in active groups tend to rationalize their actions more than individuals. Not just union guys protecting their brothers, or zealots protecting their religion, Marxists protecting the worker, whatever you want to say. 

There has been a tradition of unions using coercion to get what they want. To claim other wise is absurd. You can see it on here some union automatically get defensive when the subject of unions is brought up, even hostile. Anyone who criticizes is the enemy.

As I said that is my interpretation, not Mr. Shinns words or even meaning.


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

So I need to ask because I truly do not know how the unions work. There aren't any in my area as far as I know.

People on here are saying that Davis-Bacon is anti-free market...

So what exactly is a union? Does an owner of property that needs new construction or remodel have the right to choose union vs. open shop in an area that both are available?

If so, then I understand. 
Because...
There is still a free market. "You get what you pay for!" You have the choice to either hire a union to perform your contract or go with the open shop and hope that AHJ code holds them to the flame. 

If not, then... 
Unions are no more different than the Davis-Bacon Act. Where fed/state/local government entities or fed/state/local governing union entities are standardizing the labor wage and therefore against a free market.

Like I said earlier. I have very little understanding of how unions work. But I wish to learn as that is why I joined this forum.

Your thoughts???


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## drs (Jun 17, 2011)

Had 3 union higer up thugs approach my family a few times stating I was taking food out of some kids mouth. They came to my home then followed the family when they went shopping.

I know it was not the typical union member banging on my door. This is where I feel bad for the typical union member who does not support thuggish stuff like that, but has to deal with that.


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

Widdershins said:


> My point was that I've never had a Non-Union Plumber key my van or break off my mirrors for daring to park my rig onsite.
> 
> The irony for me is, even though my shop is considered open, I'm still a dues paying member of the Local 26, as are my Guys -- And have been for over 30 years.



If you know for a fact that this done by thugs belonging to some union did you file charges? I'd ask this question of anyone who makes a claim like this , I've seen a couple of other folks make these claims in this thread, did anyone file charges Also what problem did they have with you if your a local dues paying member? Because you are an open shop ? If so I guess they would have a problem with our shop in the dfw area here in texas because we would be considered open shop I guess.


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

DesertOkie said:


> I didn't even know the jailbirds had organized.
> 
> I interpreted Mr. Shinns comment to mean people in active groups tend to rationalize their actions more than individuals. Not just union guys protecting their brothers, or zealots protecting their religion, Marxists protecting the worker, whatever you want to say.
> 
> ...


Do you have anything to add or contribute to this thread other than your snide back handed comments or are you just stirring the pot?


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

playme1979 said:


> Do you have anything to add or contribute to this thread other than your snide back handed comments or are you just stirring the pot?


The title of the thread is pros and cons of a union. The pros are benefits and training. The cons are the caste system inside the union and the use of intimidation and other lowlife tactics by the unions. I don't think all unions are like that, but they sure don't say anything about the ones that are.

As for snide comments, hello pot.:laughing:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

*Figured I'd finally chime in on this topic*

As I should.


I almost hate to repeat it again, but I was once union, then got the raw deal. However at the time, even though very rough, I've learned/been taught more about business, plumbing, management, technique, the ability to go with the flow in a down economy than anything that the union school system offers. They are the hands on "trade" equation and that's it.


So, in my natural self, I'll poise questions that stump the union workers every time I ask them: 



Why is it when I was in the union, it didn't matter how many 'credentials' I obtained while there (med gas/boilers/chillers) that it never gained hardly an extra dollar on the hour. ??? 

Why is it that being a master plumber was literally frowned upon, calling it a "waste of money" and "you'll never need it. ???

Why is it that every union shop I worked in, there was always the brownnosers getting the gravy work, the lifers that got most of traditional work and the sub par/new guys usually got stuck with the hardest of the hard jobs, regardless of education/training levels going in. 

Why is it that the go getters like myself that was guns loaded trying to get as many credentials under my belt was discouraged to do so (multiple backflow licenses) and that the majority felt that since we're all making the same "literally" that you're doing more than you should and not getting the benefit. ???

Why is it that every shop I went to, there was always someone in the employee roster that truly was being guided along, earning the same wage as everyone getting the majority of us furious since the normal workplace would never accept such ignorance/insuboordination along the way without instant dismissal. ???

Why is it in the union that you're only as good as your last day of work, and you basically are not allowed to have a bad day, or certainly not numerous bad days in a row. ??? 

Why is it that the guy who just wants his 40 and out (good worker) has a lesser value than the single guy that will take on 50-60-70 hour weeks because of their availability. ??? 

Why is it that the honor system in the union has such disdain for those at the employee level who try to flex their opinion and get reprimanded for doing so. Ever tried to challenge the thinking of your boss in the union? I have, numerous times. Every time I was correct and right. Wasn't there long enough to see if that changed, and I'm sure it would. Didn't say I was perfect.

Why is it that 12 years since I've been gone from the union that I keep hearing about so many plumbers/pipefitters laid off, workers travelling away from their families just to keep sub pay balances up along with the now dismal health/vision/dental coverages that are nothing like they were when I left. ???

Why is it that every union plumber has to pay into 2 unions, not one and that one is not accessible and one is after 30 days maturity. Why is it when your union invested the money, YOUR MONEY saw a heavy drop in the balance sheets that poor investments dug into the big piggy bank you all want there when you retire. ???

Why is it that I've seen recent threads just pop up on this site about guys struggling hard, forced to go non-union to keep food in front of their families. ???

Why is it that everyone is gloating about their union job when you're all practically making the same identical wage when you reach your top out. ???

Why is it a proud moment to be paying out such enormous tax burdens being in the union with multiple deductions "after" they've taxed the gross number. I used to gross $1100.00 a week most times, sometimes $1400.00 on the long hours of some weeks and never once did I see a 4 figure check, never. 

Why is it that none of you are killing it, rolling in the dough. If you're not making over $50 an hour you are not making money in this day and age. Sitting in the $30/$40 an hour (not including bennies) is not rolling in the dough. You're getting by. Just like the union's video shows you; a chevy truck and a small residential house, feel special about that. ???

Why is it when your health goes downhill that you become the cancer of your own demise, that you cannot get any appreciation from those you've supported (union) all those years and at the very end... it's a "What have you done for me lately" mentality and if you stop the numbers on them, they'll do it to you whether you're on tv with your wife making a news story or not. ???

In Summary,


Felt like a "good ole boys" club from the go. Lots of palm rubbing from beginning to end. Someone was getting paid off constantly in the big game... and there were no whistleblowers. You bring OSHA/EEOC/WC/UB into the equation and you just engraved your name into the notorious bench that many plumbers fear of never leaving.

To think that anyone believes that if you're on the bench that you're obviously no good or you're insuboordinate is true bullshi.t and even though that's where some go, I've seen guys that were diehards, were hard workers and the outfits they worked for were just dumping labor, constantly. Bring them in, get the job done, shut it down... good luck feeling warm and comfy in your job, let alone career. I remember many that worked in these union shops that constantly had to prove themself from morning till night, day after day and sometimes the boss just didn't like you or your style. No rhyme, no reason, just happens. 

The amount of taxes, dues, union fees, some of the travelling, dangers, extreme situations where the physical demands are simply overwhelming. 

You'll never get a union worker to explain how much they pay in taxes. They don't want to discuss it. They have NOTHING to offset it with.

In 12 years I've gained a lot of personal wealth, just not a paycheck. I create my own politics arena that I can erase most always. *In the union, you're somebody's B.ITCH.*


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

playme1979 said:


> If you know for a fact that this done by thugs belonging to some union did you file charges?


Of course I did -- Anyone with a brain in their head knows you cannot file an insurance claim for 'Willful Property Damage' without a Police report.

Get with the program, PM.

Also -- I vividly remember the Officer's eyes glazing over with indifference when he learned it was yet another property damage claim in a gated parking lot used exclusively by Tradesman. Ironically, the eyes glazing over bit happened immediately after I described my Shop as an 'Open Shop'.



> I'd ask this question of anyone who makes a claim like this , I've seen a couple of other folks make these claims in this thread, did anyone file charges.


Since you brought it up -- Could you highlight those other claims?



> Also what problem did they have with you if your a local dues paying member?


 Good question -- I would have asked them myself if they hadn't walked off the job in protest of the presence of 'Open Shops' on the job site.



> Because you are an open shop ?


 I'm pretty sure the graffiti spray painted on the trucks of the other 'Open Shop' Plumbing Contractors less fortunate than me will attest to the reasoning behind the attacks.



> If so I guess they would have a problem with our shop in the dfw area here in texas because we would be considered open shop I guess.


 You gotta be shiotting me -- DFW is about as far removed from the Uber-Leftist mindset of Western Washington as one can get w/out actually stepping over the Mason/Dixon Line.

Now, how about a little background:

The Union shop was doing a brand new grocery store for a large multi-national chain. My shop, as well as several other 'Open Shops' were doing the storefronts -- A bagel shop, a coffee store, a bank, a bubble tea shop, a pet store etc. . . .

Those Union guys made our lives a living hell for the duration of the project -- Damage to our vehicles, prohibitions against parking onsite, deliberate sabotage to work that had already been completed, Union Compliance Officers carding us sometimes 5 or 6 times a day, parking trucks in the driveway when trucks from the Supply House came by to deliver materials. . . . . 

Things got bad enough I finally had to hire a Security company to come in and babysit the job until the doors and windows finally went in.

Look -- This is not a condemnation of Unions, not by any stretch of the imagination. OTOH, it is a testimonial to just how out of hand things can sometimes get when you throw Union Shops and Open Shops into the same mix and expect them to coexist.

Again, this is not meant to be a condemnation of Unions -- Most Union guys are just like the rest of us -- Decent guys and gals just trying to do their jobs with the least amount of friction and drama. Unfortunately, it's the drama one remembers most vividly.


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

As I should.


I almost hate to repeat it again, but I was once union, then got the raw deal. However at the time, even though very rough, I've learned/been taught more about business, plumbing, management, technique, the ability to go with the flow in a down economy than anything that the union school system offers. They are the hands on "trade" equation and that's it.


So, in my natural self, I'll poise questions that stump the union workers every time I ask them: 



Why is it when I was in the union, it didn't matter how many 'credentials' I obtained while there (med gas/boilers/chillers) that it never gained hardly an extra dollar on the hour. ??? 

!!The company you worked for at anytime could have payed you more money at anytime they saw fit. At least that is how it is in our local.

Why is it that being a master plumber was literally frowned upon, calling it a "waste of money" and "you'll never need it. ???

!!I heard this same thing , but more so when I was working nonunion jobs

Why is it that every union shop I worked in, there was always the brownnosers getting the gravy work, the lifers that got most of traditional work and the sub par/new guys usually got stuck with the hardest of the hard jobs, regardless of education/training levels going in. 

!!This happens in nonunon and union is called nepotism

Why is it that the go getters like myself that was guns loaded trying to get as many credentials under my belt was discouraged to do so (multiple backflow licenses) and that the majority felt that since we're all making the same "literally" that you're doing more than you should and not getting the benefit. ??? 

!!!You really saying this is just a union thing. This happens in nonunion companys also

Why is it that every shop I went to, there was always someone in the employee roster that truly was being guided along, earning the same wage as everyone getting the majority of us furious since the normal workplace would never accept such ignorance/insuboordination along the way without instant dismissal. ??? 

!!really, it happens everywhere union or nonunion , the bosses kid,owners friends son. 

Why is it in the union that you're only as good as your last day of work, and you basically are not allowed to have a bad day, or certainly not numerous bad days in a row. ??? 

!!This happens everywhere 

Why is it that the guy who just wants his 40 and out (good worker) has a lesser value than the single guy that will take on 50-60-70 hour weeks because of their availability. ???

!!!This has a pretty obvious answer , you being a business owner should know the answer to this.

Why is it that the honor system in the union has such disdain for those at the employee level who try to flex their opinion and get reprimanded for doing so. Ever tried to challenge the thinking of your boss in the union? I have, numerous times. Every time I was correct and right. Wasn't there long enough to see if that changed, and I'm sure it would. Didn't say I was perfect.

!!!this also happens everywhere trying to change the way things have been done for years is like pulling teeth in the union and nonunion company's.

Why is it that 12 years since I've been gone from the union that I keep hearing about so many plumbers/pipefitters laid off, workers travelling away from their families just to keep sub pay balances up along with the now dismal health/vision/dental coverages that are nothing like they were when I left. ??? 

!!!You honestly think the layoffs are just in the union . REALLY

Why is it that every union plumber has to pay into 2 unions, not one and that one is not accessible and one is after 30 days maturity. Why is it when your union invested the money, YOUR MONEY saw a heavy drop in the balance sheets that poor investments dug into the big piggy bank you all want there when you retire. ???

!!!I can only speak for the local I'm out of and I only pay dues into 1 union 

Why is it that I've seen recent threads just pop up on this site about guys struggling hard, forced to go non-union to keep food in front of their families. ??? 

!!!It's the economy. It's happening to all company's everywhere


Why is it that everyone is gloating about their union job when you're all practically making the same identical wage when you reach your top out. ???
Whats wrong with that ?????? our bonus's at the end of the year separate us out. 

Why is it a proud moment to be paying out such enormous tax burdens being in the union with multiple deductions "after" they've taxed the gross number. I used to gross $1100.00 a week most times, sometimes $1400.00 on the long hours of some weeks and never once did I see a 4 figure check, never. 

!!!Doesn't happen with the local I'm out of.I receive a 4 figure check everyweek and so do most of my plumbers that work for me.

Why is it that none of you are killing it, rolling in the dough. If you're not making over $50 an hour you are not making money in this day and age. Sitting in the $30/$40 an hour (not including bennies) is not rolling in the dough. You're getting by. Just like the union's video shows you; a chevy truck and a small residential house, feel special about that. ???

!!!In my opinion the union is not to get wealthy its to live comfortable, If you joined the union to get wealthy then you made a mistake.

Why is it when your health goes downhill that you become the cancer of your own demise, that you cannot get any appreciation from those you've supported (union) all those years and at the very end... it's a "What have you done for me lately" mentality and if you stop the numbers on them, they'll do it to you whether you're on tv with your wife making a news story or not. ???

!!!So let me get this straight , you think just because you worked for a union company that they owe anything other than a paycheck on friday. This is the mentality that has screwed are country up. If I have taken you wrong on this let me know.

In Summary,


Felt like a "good ole boys" club from the go. Lots of palm rubbing from beginning to end. Someone was getting paid off constantly in the big game... and there were no whistleblowers. You bring OSHA/EEOC/WC/UB into the equation and you just engraved your name into the notorious bench that many plumbers fear of never leaving.

!!!I'd say that if you were to do this to any company whether it is union or nonunion your ass would be **** canned.If they could figure out a way to do it.

To think that anyone believes that if you're on the bench that you're obviously no good or you're insuboordinate is true bullshi.t and even though that's where some go, I've seen guys that were diehards, were hard workers and the outfits they worked for were just dumping labor, constantly. Bring them in, get the job done, shut it down... good luck feeling warm and comfy in your job, let alone career. I remember many that worked in these union shops that constantly had to prove themself from morning till night, day after day and sometimes the boss just didn't like you or your style. No rhyme, no reason, just happens. 

!!!Large plumbing company's everywhere do this whether it is union or nonunion. 

The amount of taxes, dues, union fees, some of the travelling, dangers, extreme situations where the physical demands are simply overwhelming. 

!!!!this is with any company


You'll never get a union worker to explain how much they pay in taxes. They don't want to discuss it. They have NOTHING to offset it with. 

!!!Totally untrue

In 12 years I've gained a lot of personal wealth, just not a paycheck. I create my own politics arena that I can erase most always. *In the union, you're somebody's B.ITCH.*

!!!If this is what you made yourself feel like then maybe the union wasn't the problem ??????


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

playme1979 said:


> As I should.
> 
> 
> I almost hate to repeat it again, but I was once union, then got the raw deal. However at the time, even though very rough, I've learned/been taught more about business, plumbing, management, technique, the ability to go with the flow in a down economy than anything that the union school system offers. They are the hands on "trade" equation and that's it.
> ...



Multiple Personality Disorder??????


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

Look for the !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! blue exclamations those are my responses to dunbar's questions or statements


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

playme1979 said:


> Look for the !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! blue exclamations those are my responses to dunbar's questions or statements


You read all of that?:laughing:

You're hardcore, d00d.:yes:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> ....Those Union guys made our lives a living hell for the duration of the project -- Damage to our vehicles, prohibitions against parking onsite, deliberate sabotage to work that had already been completed, Union Compliance Officers carding us sometimes 5 or 6 times a day, parking trucks in the driveway when trucks from the Supply House came by to deliver materials...


It does seem that there are those that think the movie "F.I.S.T." was supposed to be a guide for their real life persona.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> It does seem that there are those that think the movie "F.I.S.T." was supposed to be a guide for their real life persona.


 One consolation is that the Shop in question was one of the first to fall when the economy went points up.

I see their painted over logo on a lot of vans every time I go to the Supply House -- It was a fire sale when they were finally forced to liquidate their assets. :laughing:


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

Widdershins said:


> Of course I did -- Anyone with a brain in their head knows you cannot file an insurance claim for 'Willful Property Damage' without a Police report.
> 
> Get with the program, PM.
> 
> ...



Did the multinational chain's name start with a K ?? just curious


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

playme1979 said:


> Did the multinational chain's name start with a K ?? just curious


No, it started with an S. The one that starts with a K didn't start making inroads around here until a few years later.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

You asked for the pro and con of the U.A..
Pros are in my opinion. Training is good, acess to training. If you are interested in construction and not plumbing houses but the biggest industrial and institutional jobs such as hospitols and schools, the union has more of these type jobs. Service and repair more often is non union. If you are working in construction in my area wages are 40 an hour with retirement and full paid medical and dental insurance for you and your wife and children.
Negatives include , most tradesman find themselves out of work far more often than non union. It can be very demoralizing to be out of work and have to just wait your turn for a job. But there are men who never get laid off in the union making good money. A nother negative is not being able to negotiate a deal of your own. Actualy you can but its hard and you got to be in very high demand. 
Tell you the truth I think this trade is best for self employed Non union isnt usualy that good and union often isnt either and if you got skills and still young its a great trade to learn and eventualy might be good for a buisness.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

I have a question for you union guys.

None of you work commission?


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## wundumguy (Apr 3, 2010)

DesertOkie said:


> As a non union guy the thought of someone being judged as better than me by the time in is repulsive. I'll take being judged by my work.


 
We don't judge, rate, or otherwise discriminate according to "time in". For example, I am among the youngest by "time in" the trade, but I am among the highest paid by dollars per hour. Yes, a Signatory can pay a Journeyman higher than the rate in the collective agreement.



> One question for you union guys, do you guys do service?


Uhm... we do service. What kind of question is that!? LOL
In this area, the Service Mechanic rate is slightly higher than our Commercial rate and slightly lower than our Industrial rate.



> Knowing code by heart is nice but that's not trouble shooting or dealing with what you find in the hole.


I am one of them "union" Service Mechanics.

Given that I specialize in service work, you probably know the Plumbing Code better than I do. On the other hand, you probably don't fix as many things as I do: hydronic and steam boiler systems, furnaces, air handlers, air conditioners, heat pumps, pneumatic and direct digital controls. I even write programs and fix up other people's poorly written HVAC control programs.


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## wundumguy (Apr 3, 2010)

DesertOkie said:


> I have a question for you union guys.
> 
> None of you work commission?


Are we talking Service Mechanics?

Not pure commission. Collective agreement does not permit this. However, some are paid a small commission, on top of the negotiated rate.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

wundumguy said:


> Are we talking Service Mechanics?
> 
> Not pure commission. Collective agreement does not permit this. However, some are paid a small commission, on top of the negotiated rate.



I am talking about a service plumber. I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing. I prefer being paid by commission or by the job as opposed to hourly, so that got me wondering about your pay scale. 

My comment about code refereed to training. I worked service for about a year when I decided to take plumbing classes that would let me get a journeyman lic a year earlier in Phoenix AZ. The classes were taught by union guys and fit in with their stuff. The classes were so useless, and the upper level stuff so few and far between it ended up being not worth it. 

It might have been that the union presence was so small in AZ that the classes were lacking, I'm not sure if the training is so slow in other places or not. 

In the field I have found the best teacher is experience as most service work is different. Also most code gets trumped at the local level by what they want and how they want it. Knowing the code well helps when there is a question and you must defend your work, but the interpretation is everything. 

How much did your class room work help you on the job?

I believe there is a difference between the unions in Canada and the US, as far as seniority goes. I can only judge this on what I have heard from union guys.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

I dont think there is such a thing as a commision only union plumbing job. 
If you are only interested in commision then dont concider union. 
I dont think they allow piece work either.
But if your interested in working on the biggest and most technical jobs you probebly will need to be union. If you are on a job that is upwards of a billion dollars it most likely will be union. If you want to do residential or light commercial there is huge amont of work to be had non union. 
Hell try either union or non union if you dont like it try the other and if you still dont like it try another profession . Dont let nothing stop you from seeing new things. Its not just union plumbing or non union plumbing out there!


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

jeffreyplumber said:


> I dont think there is such a thing as a commision only union plumbing job.
> If you are only interested in commision then dont concider union.
> I dont think they allow piece work either.
> But if your interested in working on the biggest and most technical jobs you probebly will need to be union. If you are on a job that is upwards of a billion dollars it most likely will be union. If you want to do residential or light commercial there is huge amont of work to be had non union.
> Hell try either union or non union if you dont like it try the other and if you still dont like it try another profession . Dont let nothing stop you from seeing new things. Its not just union plumbing or non union plumbing out there!


Where I am there is very little union. I run service now and plan to open my own thing doing service and possible light new install within a year. 

I would not mind learning some mechanical plumbing, but I'm here for my wife's job and we won't be moving. So what I do is what I can do for the most part.


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Union meeting tonight b.s about jobs talk politics. We get fed Italian dinner and beer provided post meeting.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Qball415 said:


> Union meeting tonight b.s about jobs talk politics. We get fed Italian dinner and beer provided post meeting.



Why didn't you say that before the unions are sounding better now.


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Every hall is different our membership is 1/4 of our sister locals. We get spoiled pre meetings menu has been the same for 30 years lasagna, salad, cold cuts and all the fixings for sangwiches.
Meeting involves union politics which last about 45 minutes here.
Post meeting socialize and chop it up with other members. Network and make contacts beer is provided here.
We have monthly meetings and a raffle after every meeting we win prizes like carhartt jackets, gift cards to red wing, grocery gift cards....etc
Just a perk of a signatory member.


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

Here's dinner for the brotherhood.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Qball415 said:


> Here's dinner for the brotherhood.


Doesn't look very appetizing.

That was your point, right?


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## Qball415 (Nov 20, 2010)

After a few drinks anything thwts free is good right?


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Qball415 said:


> After a few drinks anything thwts free is good right?


I suppose.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Qball415 said:


> Here's dinner for the brotherhood.



You might want to hold off on the pictures until people sign up.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

Qball415 said:


> Every hall is different our membership is 1/4 of our sister locals. We get spoiled pre meetings menu has been the same for 30 years lasagna, salad, cold cuts and all the fixings for sangwiches.
> Meeting involves union politics which last about 45 minutes here.
> Post meeting socialize and chop it up with other members. Network and make contacts beer is provided here.
> We have monthly meetings and a raffle after every meeting we win prizes like carhartt jackets, gift cards to red wing, grocery gift cards....etc
> Just a perk of a signatory member.


 Aint no free lunches!


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

actualy the union plumber is raising the wages and benefits of the non union worker. The more guys that go union forces the non union contractor to sweeten the pot for his guys. So the non union guy actualy reeps some of the benefits of the union. 
Its hard to convince someone the union is better than non union for some people perhaps it isnt. In 15 years working non union I never heard nothing good about union, obviously if Im working for a non union shop my coworkers that used to be in the union but are now working non union have had a bad experiance or something so you arent going to think its good. I mean after all this guy wouldnt be working here if the other was so good. Then you go work union and same thing you aint going to hear about great jobs working non union there . My point is you will hear bad about both I think its great experiance to try union especialy if you are interested in construction. If you are service oriented there are some opportunitys as well .


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