# Carpenter staple punctures pipe in pantry wall



## Liv (Mar 17, 2014)

Hi there, I am new to this forum. I am an accountant by trade but I own a growing mechanical company, about 25 employees. The reason I joined this forum today is to better understand my business from a field perspective so that I can better relate to my customers and solve their problems. So here I am! I really hope someone can help me out with this one.

I guess the cabinet installer punctured a plumbing pipe in the pantry hill installing cabinets. We responded to the call in the middle of the night. located the leak in the wall, cut/fixed the pipe. When I sent my bill to the builder, he told me it is warranty because running pipes through a pantry is a big NO NO. Of coarse my guys are bucking this and said that he should pay.

Just wanted to know what you thought..if it is true that plumbers are just supposed to know not to run a series of pipes through a pantry wall where cabinets are going. 

Thank you!
Liv


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

Liv said:


> Hi there, I am new to this forum. I am an accountant by trade but I own a growing mechanical company, about 25 employees. The reason I joined this forum today is to better understand my business from a field perspective so that I can better relate to my customers and solve their problems. So here I am! I really hope someone can help me out with this one.
> 
> I guess the cabinet installer punctured a plumbing pipe in the pantry hill installing cabinets. We responded to the call in the middle of the night. located the leak in the wall, cut/fixed the pipe. When I sent my bill to the builder, he told me it is warranty because running pipes through a pantry is a big NO NO. Of coarse my guys are bucking this and said that he should pay.
> 
> ...


You do not belong here. Someone will be with you shortly to show you the door.


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## Liv (Mar 17, 2014)

Wouldn't owning a plumbing company for 4 years make me a plumbing professional? I wasn't trying to offend anyone here by joining. Its the ones like you who embarrass the rest of the "professional plumbers"..seems this site isn't for you either. My plumbers would be ashamed of you.


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

Sorry to say this but I might get banned but you are a dumba$$


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

I dont see what triple did wrong, this plumber is proud of him for protecting our business.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Are your plumbers licensed? Are they experienced? They should know how to coordinate with other trades. If you want, you can hire me as a consultant. 500,000 a year, I'll review photos of your employees work from my house and tell you how hacky they are.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

But to answer your question, yes, most skilled plumbers know certain areas shouldn't be piped through. But the builder should have caught that in their walk through before the rough.


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## timrath (Sep 28, 2013)

I 'll bet the nail plates were either not installed or removed


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## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

This is a first years question....


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## Liv (Mar 17, 2014)

cabinet installer nailed/stapled into the drywall and struck a pipe. He didn't go on the stud.


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## Liv (Mar 17, 2014)

Flyout95 said:


> Are your plumbers licensed? Are they experienced? They should know how to coordinate with other trades. If you want, you can hire me as a consultant. 500,000 a year, I'll review photos of your employees work from my house and tell you how hacky they are.


Im a 4 million dollar company, Im only asking my question because Im not sure if some of my guys are just defending them selves or if its a known as an industry standard not to put pipes in a pantry..feel free to view my hacky photos..


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

Liv said:


> cabinet installer nailed/stapled into the drywall and struck a pipe. He didn't go on the stud.


We'll fix it if you are a plumber it simple
plumbing


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Liv said:


> Im a 4 million dollar company, Im only asking my question because Im not sure if some of my guys are just defending them selves or if its a known as an industry standard not to put pipes in a pantry..feel free to view my hacky photos..














You seem like a legitimate plumbing, heating & refrigeration company.

I have been in the plumbing trade for {20} years. I have never heard of something so ridiculous as a rule prohibiting pipes in a pantry wall.


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## Liv (Mar 17, 2014)

Thank you Tommy plumber

we did fix it

the question now is weather its billable time or not. my guys are saying it is billable time for going out after hours and fixing the pipe..but the builder doesn't want to pay saying that the fix it is warranty work because we shouldn't have piped behind pantry walls also said something about damage to dry way etc..

So thats why Im here, to determine who's yanking my chain and get a few opinions on weather or not I should bill my client for the fix since my guys and the client seem to be divided or do I take responsibility for piping in the wrong place..

We don't seem to have these issues in commercial. Thank you.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

A pipe in any wall that gets an anchored covering is potentially at risk. But, the plumbing has to go somewhere. If it's a water line, was it placed within a inch of the surface of the structural member (stud)? If so, was it plated? If your answer to the first question is no or the second yes, it's a billable situation. 
However, if you ever want to work for this GC again, you may want to consider your options. Does he represent a substantial percentage of your gross revenue? Do you have an ongoing relationship with him? Sticking him with this could be the end of the relationship.
Did you have a foreman on this job? If so, what's his take on the situation?


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## ]3ones (Jun 9, 2011)

This issue is totally the dry waller's fault and defiantly billable. He's a freaking idiot ( tho sh!t happens, probably an accident) but your plumbers didn't violate any code or practice. Hopefully they got a signed invoice.

Now depending on your relationship with the builder would be the deciding factor to bill or not. Does he give you steady work and always pay his bill? Or do u not want to work for him again? If not bill his a$$ 100% that is no warranty


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Liv said:


> cabinet installer nailed/stapled into the drywall and struck a pipe. He didn't go on the stud.










Then its on his dime.


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

Why dont you base it on how much work the guy gives you. What could it have taken (2 hours) at most to repair a line. Big deal, chaulk it up as a lesson as to where NOT to run the lines.


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## Liv (Mar 17, 2014)

Thank you all for your help.

Client provides a steady stream of work every year, however, with the nickel and dimming, and lack of organization (he's growing) the profit gets sucks out.

I always give him what he wants but this time Im considering digging in my heals after 3 years of providing good service (24h), we warranty everything..sometimes even when I don't think I should..but how much is enough? I figure Im being taken advantage of so I needed advice from individuals who are not close to the situation before I tell him it all stops here. I guess thats the long answer to weather or not I value his business, so I guess..no, not any more.

Ive had my super since inception of the business, 3.5 yrs., he says to bill it, but he is also very fed up with the client at the moment.


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## Leach713 (Nov 1, 2013)

I say let it slide the first time then 2nd start back charging


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Liv said:


> Thank you all for your help.
> 
> Client provides a steady stream of work every year, however, with the nickel and dimming, and lack of organization (he's growing) the profit gets sucks out.
> 
> ...


Between you and your super, I think you have your answer. :yes:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

On the job sometimes crap happens. This time it happened to the nailer guy. 

If you had to fix your mistake and cut out drywall, would you be billed for it?

Bill it.


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## KoleckeINC (Oct 22, 2011)

If it went through a stud and you didn't plate it it's your baby. Otherwise it's an accident and the builder should pay. Real estate, management companies and GC's all cry the same. They sign my contract or sit n spin


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## KCplumber (Dec 31, 2009)

Let the builder pay for it, than he can try to get it back from the cabinet guys


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## alberteh (Feb 26, 2012)

Who put the nail thru in the wrong spot? Then that person is at fault.

Same as if your plumbers accidentally nick a wire or cut out too much out of a joist. You know you will be billed for it...


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

Liv said:


> Im a 4 million dollar company, Im only asking my question because Im not sure if some of my guys are just defending them selves or if its a known as an industry standard not to put pipes in a pantry..feel free to view my hacky photos..


 I still have yet to see an intro. I'm even more puzzled that this has not been caught yet. Also, you mean to tell me that you're a $4M company, and you're on here asking this type of question??

You would think a person who allegedly owns this size plumbing shop would know something that a 2 month apprentice would know= If it was nail plated and passed a rough inspection before concealing the plumbing, the plumbers would be clear of any liability.

If they missed the stud and still punctured it, it's still on the builder or whomever. Not the plumber.

Also, in your first post (which was not an intro, and you still have not posted one) you said you were an accountant.



I reiterate: There is no way in hell, you are a shop owner of a $4,000,000.00 shop and you had to get on here and ask such a question.


FYI: I hold a Mechanical Contractor's license as well. Which is it? do you own a plumbing shop or mechanical? make up your mind.


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## BC73RS (Jan 25, 2014)

Save the the evidence and submit it with the back charge, it happens, the cabinet maker knows this too.
Even a steel stud guy can mistake a gas pipe behind drywall for a stud, ask me how I know.


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## Liv (Mar 17, 2014)

Triplecrown24 said:


> I still have yet to see an intro. I'm even more puzzled that this has not been caught yet. Also, you mean to tell me that you're a $4M company, and you're on here asking this type of question??
> 
> You would think a person who allegedly owns this size plumbing shop would know something that a 2 month apprentice would know= If it was nail plated and passed a rough inspection before concealing the plumbing, the plumbers would be clear of any liability.
> 
> ...


as stated, I'm an accountant who owns a plumbing company. traditionally I turn to my men; who are defending the billing -so for once I reached out and asked for an alternate opinion. sorry if your threatened by successful women in business. We don't get to be or stay successful by hiding under a rock and running away from the likes of you. I spared you the pictures of the rest of my non plumbing related accomplishments i.e. high pressure gas mains, flare stacks, fab shop, compressors the six of your garage...so tell me ..do I need to challenge you and request to see your accomplishments since you have such a problem with me? step up or BACK OFF.

how would an account know if its ok to knick a plumbing pipe since it was (according to the customer) put in the wrong place??? Im well away of the inspection process, this is more about the customer and plumbing culture.

for the record, I come from a heavy construction accounting background, my 1st job was in a site trailer smack in the middle of an industrial construction site and my father, a tradesman, founded my company with me and has since retired. hope that explains it. sheesh..

Like I said -get lost.


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## brad7596 (Nov 1, 2008)

You own a plumbing company employing plumbers welcome aboard:thumbup:


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

Liv said:


> as stated, I'm an accountant who owns a plumbing company. traditionally I turn to my men; who are defending the billing -so for once I reached out and asked for an alternate opinion. sorry if your threatened by successful women in business. We don't get to be or stay successful by hiding under a rock and running away from the likes of you. I spared you the pictures of the rest of my non plumbing related accomplishments i.e. high pressure gas mains, flare stacks, fab shop, compressors the six of your garage...so tell me ..do I need to challenge you and request to see your accomplishments since you have such a problem with me? step up or BACK OFF.
> 
> how would an account know if its ok to knick a plumbing pipe since it was (according to the customer) put in the wrong place??? Im well away of the inspection process, this is more about the customer and plumbing culture.
> 
> ...


 I'll step up. And I won't get lost. I am the most brutal plumber you will probably meet. I know my trade front to back, up and down and around. And everyone here knows that. I stick with what I said, and you're a glorified hack at best! "Plumbing Pipe", sorry but a pro would never refer to it as that! What kind of "Plumbing Pipe" did they puncture there, plumbing pro? 

You get on here without any type of intro. I've seen better plumbing terminology from a handyhack than from you!

I do not care about your background regarding heavy construction...etc

There is no way you are a licensed mechanical or plumbing contractor!!! 

I could test you and you would fail miserably. Do you want to step up to that??

As far as your pictures. Anyone can post pictures of anything. (I like the missing discharge pipe on the WH)

I can tell if someone is a pro in 30 seconds just by how they talk.

I have straight up schooled some of my own fellow seasoned plumbers on here.

And you think your newbie self is going to waltz in and bark at me!!!!!!??????

I will bite your head off and spit it out to the dogs.


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## Liv (Mar 17, 2014)

yep. Red Seal plumbers, class A gas fitters ..ABSA certified, utility certified. I also employ refrigeration mechanics, sheet metal workers and service plumbers as well and its a good thing none of them are standing next to Triplecrown24 right now.


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

Liv said:


> yep. Red Seal plumbers, class A gas fitters ..ABSA certified, utility certified. I also employ refrigeration mechanics, sheet metal workers and service plumbers as well and its a good thing none of them are standing next to Triplecrown24 right now.


 your so called plumbers would idolize me.


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## alberteh (Feb 26, 2012)

Class A? those guys are hard to find! 

Apologies for others on this board, As an owner of a plumbing company i am sure you are welcome here. I am sure if people take the time to think through their posts they will come to the conclusion that it is of benefit to us all to have people with different backgrounds and specialties sharing their experiences.

If you own a plumbing company you should be allowed here, even if you are not a ticketed plumber.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Triplecrown24 said:


> your so called plumbers would idolize me.


:laughing:
Truly a legend in his own mind....:blink:

Welcome Liv...


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## crown36 (May 21, 2013)

This is a perfect example of why intro's are important. Usually everyone is quick on the draw when someone fails to post their intro before posting.

I ask a Moderator to please guide "Liv" to the intro section, so we know more about them.


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## Liv (Mar 17, 2014)

Triplecrown24 said:


> I'll step up. And I won't get lost. I am the most brutal plumber you will probably meet. I know my trade front to back, up and down and around. And everyone here knows that. I stick with what I said, and you're a glorified hack at best! "Plumbing Pipe", sorry but a pro would never refer to it as that! What kind of "Plumbing Pipe" did they puncture there, plumbing pro?
> 
> You get on here without any type of intro. I've seen better plumbing terminology from a handyhack than from you!
> 
> ...


Laughable. I pay out out 6 figure salaries to retain the pro's -Im the accountant and the business owner. I don't pretend to be the pro but I did come here to better understand what goes on in the field since I have to ultimately make the final decisions to SUPPORT MY PRO'S decisions in the field. I would be nothing without the loyalty and support of my men. I need them more than they need me and I respect them and they respect me, some of them with wings on their back.. soo its unlikely that someone on the internet who wants to feed me to the dogs is going to scare me away. Are you done beating me up now? Also, if you have schooled fellow plumbers on here, why can't you equally be the "big guy" to me? Whats really the problem here? and where is the intro button..I just got here and don't know my way around yet nor have I learned the etiquette. I will introduce myself in the manner that you do it around here, Ill give you that and hopefully you will turn this situation around and decide to mentor me instead of going down this road. Im here for the business side of it, Im here for my customers and Im here for my men. Im not going anywhere and I won't engage in this any further.


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## alberteh (Feb 26, 2012)

Triplecrown24 said:


> This is a perfect example of why intro's are important. Usually everyone is quick on the draw when someone fails to post their intro before posting.
> 
> I ask a Moderator to please guide "Liv" to the intro section, so we know more about them.


Now that is a more civilized response. Bravo!


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## Liv (Mar 17, 2014)

Triplecrown24 said:


> your so called plumbers would idolize me.


no, they would respect your skill..


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## Liv (Mar 17, 2014)

alberteh said:


> Now that is a more civilized response. Bravo!


yes please!!


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## Liv (Mar 17, 2014)

alberteh said:


> Class A? those guys are hard to find!
> 
> Apologies for others on this board, As an owner of a plumbing company i am sure you are welcome here. I am sure if people take the time to think through their posts they will come to the conclusion that it is of benefit to us all to have people with different backgrounds and specialties sharing their experiences.
> 
> If you own a plumbing company you should be allowed here, even if you are not a ticketed plumber.


In all honesty, if Im really not supposed to be here due to not having the ticket I will leave. I don't want to envade anyones turf IF Im truly not supposed to be here. I can respect that. Since its a professional plumbing site, I thought it was ok, but if this site is for tickets only I will leave, I hope to be accepted because I doubt Ill learn much about plumbing on some executive CEO site..


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## alberteh (Feb 26, 2012)

Redwood said:


> :laughing:
> Truly a legend in his own mind....:blink:
> 
> Welcome Liv...


I'm not the only one welcoming you. Please stay!


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## BC73RS (Jan 25, 2014)

By all means hang around they're a just a tough crowd is all. Tradesman , you know. You've been through the hazing and passed.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

By all means stay Liv. If for no other reason than help TC stay in close contact with his blood pressure pills. :laughing:

As for the intro, that is the tradition here. Please go to the intro section, give us a brief howdy/handshake, and let us know how you came to be where you are in the plumbing trade. You will find many members waiting to welcome you "officially".


By the way TC...I hope you realize YOU are a major contributer to her coolness. :laughing: And as entertaining as this is, you need to put a lid on it.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

Wait!!! It's a **** measuring contest and SHE won?!?! Oh, she's in!!


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## TXPlumbBob (Dec 13, 2013)

First, Welcome Liv. What some like Triplecrown does not understand is having a bean counter around can be a great help from time to time. 

Second, Being an installer and owner, I do have quit "giving" anything. The margins are to tight in new construction to be nickel and dimed to death. I do not care where we install the plumbing pipes, if another trade damages them they can pay me to fix it or someone else. As far as the GC, unless he is taking you to Wyoming hunting or to Costa Rica fishing NO FREEBIES. 
We had a GC that always wanted something extra. It was the way he bid the job knowing he could get the subs to give in here and there. Never very big but constant. He quit using us because I would not do any extra work for free. We never slowed down and the competition got to get screwed. I would talk to them and they would be whining about how many times they heard " can you do this for me". 

BILL IT and keep billing all damages by others and include the wording in you warranties to that effect. 

To me it is a lack of respect for us Plumbers and our work. Like it is beneath them and if they tear it up it is no big deal it is just plumbing pipes.


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## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

Triplecrown24 said:


> I'll step up. And I won't get lost. I am the most brutal plumber you will probably meet. I know my trade front to back, up and down and around. And everyone here knows that. I stick with what I said, and you're a glorified hack at best! "Plumbing Pipe", sorry but a pro would never refer to it as that! What kind of "Plumbing Pipe" did they puncture there, plumbing pro?
> 
> You get on here without any type of intro. I've seen better plumbing terminology from a handyhack than from you!
> 
> ...


 

Wow what an idiot :laughing:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

FWIW - She did submit her credentials, and does in fact own a $4 million Mechanical firm. Therefore, she's welcome here.


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## Doctor (May 21, 2012)

Why do people on here feel its there obligation to thrash others when there only fault is they are newbies!!!


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

I dunno, I caught some crap for having my intro too detailed. Don't bother me none.

Welcome Liv. I like your spunk


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Liv said:


> cabinet installer nailed/stapled into the drywall and struck a pipe. He didn't go on the stud.


It's should be on the cabinet guy.

Mark


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Triplecrown24 said:


> your so called plumbers would idolize me.


I certainly hope you are just messing with her. If you really are that much into yourself, you might have a serious problem.

Mark


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## Archie (Mar 5, 2014)

Liv said:


> Hi there, I am new to this forum. I am an accountant by trade but I own a growing mechanical company, about 25 employees. The reason I joined this forum today is to better understand my business from a field perspective so that I can better relate to my customers and solve their problems. So here I am! I really hope someone can help me out with this one.
> 
> I guess the cabinet installer punctured a plumbing pipe in the pantry hill installing cabinets. We responded to the call in the middle of the night. located the leak in the wall, cut/fixed the pipe. When I sent my bill to the builder, he told me it is warranty because running pipes through a pantry is a big NO NO. Of coarse my guys are bucking this and said that he should pay.
> 
> ...




Welcome Liv, Same type of thing happens to all of us at times. Usually I try to develop relationships with the other trades so we can work together. So if its something minor I probably would rack it up as part of the job. I know when I quote any job that things never go perfect so theres usually a little room there for unforeseen things. Maybe your plumbers might scratch a counter top some day and the cabinet guy can return the favor if hes not back charged every time he makes a mistake. If you find this GC is always looking for something extra then increase his prices to allow for it and he will either pay for it or find someone else, either way your better off. Good Luck.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Haha.....second time this month that triple crown has his b#$%h card pulled....hahahaha. Priceless!


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

I think TC may be related to "the master"


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## PlumbDumber (Aug 7, 2013)

I have not been on PZ much for a few days and had missed this whole Brewhaha. I was told to check it out by Letterrip.

TC, as a "Real Plumber", (Licensed Plumbing Contractor,Master Plumber in 2 states, and a business owner) who has agreed with you and thanked you on many of your posts, I have to tell you that I think that you are way out of line on this one.

I certainly think that Liv belongs on ANY Professional Plumbing forum and would be welcomed to them with open arms.


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

TC, I have thanked you for useful posts in the past.
However, frothing at the mouth with:
Quote: "I am the most brutal plumber you will probably meet."
Quote: "I will bite your head off and spit it out to the dogs."
:furious::furious::furious:
...creepy...

During the exchange, Liv managed to describe her career and company,
being forthright, and won the goodwill of most over here.

Give the other person enough rope to hang himself.:laughing:
The perfect strategy in a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu match. Let your opponent
carry your weight, apply pressure at the right moment and let your 
opponent get frustrated and tired. Then calmly go for the submission.
The only difference is that this was done with words instead of being a 
physical chess match.

Well done, Liv!:thumbup:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

PLUMB TIME said:


> I think TC may be related to "the master"


I found myself thinking the same thing...:laughing:


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## smoldrn (Oct 4, 2010)

And I thought I used to miss 'Mary Hartman'.:laughing:


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Hey, Triple Clown, get over yourself dude! As amazed and awestruck by you as you'd like to think other members of this forum are of you, yer probably not even a pimple on the ass of some of 'em! We all get that you have a business. And, according to you, it's extremely successful. Well, business aside, your life seems pretty empty to me. The fact that you thrive on condescending existing members, as well as new members, leaves me feeling sorry for your empty self. Maybe as this season of new beginnings starts ( read that as spring ), you may want to try and re-invent your personality. For, although you may be a master of the universe business wise, I can't help but believe you have few, if any, true friends. And trust me when I say these things. I've walked in your shoes. It doesn't end happily for us conceited folks.


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