# What should a Plumber going into a truck be making?



## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

I know that this question has a ton of variables, but lets say:

A guy apprentices for a while and does a great job, acquires every tool needed for 99 percent of of the jobs he would be selling, and gets his own truck. Has excellent quality of work, is producing revenue in the upper middle of the average, has no problem showing up every day, is good with customers, plenty of life experience, and generally has no major issues other than not having years of professional plumbing experience.

So since everybody has a different cost of living, a dollar value clearly can't be used, but how about apples to apples. Assume around a 50hr work week.

Should this plumber be making enough to support himself, rent or mortgage, utilities, car payment, etc.

How about supporting a wife, two kids, etc.

If this is unanswerable, then I apologize, I am just curious


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

If you dont have your journeymans lisc then its probably about 19 per hour .... get the card and it might bump up to 25..-30. at least that is the average for this area...


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

It’s primarily commission here. So $30,000-$150,000 depending on your sales


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## 5onthefloor (Sep 13, 2017)

Here in Austin it's standard for Journeyman to make 25-30 an hour. Master can make 30+ an hour DOE. Company I work for is 25/hour plus commission or straight commission. There's a shortage of plumbers in our area so finding a suitable job with pay commensurate with your experience.

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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

What is the cost of living like in the areas you guys live and work? Cost of homes that plumbers typically live in, etc?

There is no Journeymans licence in NC that I know of, just the "P1" licence.  Which would be considered the Master level I believe.

Our highest paid tech is the only one on commision and he makes about 80-90k a year.

Everyone else is around 65K give or take, they are on an hourly rate with a revenue target that, once at the target, they make commision on revenue above the target. The higher the hourly rate, the higher the rev target before commision kicks in. They are all considered journeymen.

Non of us could ever hope to live in homes like the ones we service daily.


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

Your question can only be answered in a way most of us can't put a number on for your situation. The answer is supply and demand. The demand and supply dictates the wage. Is there a lot of plumbers or not enough, is the demand high for skilled plumbers or is the demand for cheap hacks. Here we have enough demand and not quite enough supply to the point that I feel like we will start to see an increase in wages over the next 5 years. We just got rid of a guy that constantly made dumb mistakes. Just in time for slowing down a bit. We are still hanging on to the most un teachable apprentice that really has no business being a plumber just because we can't find anyone else. Around here a J-man goes for around $21-$30 DOE

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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

The Dane said:


> Your question can only be answered in a way most of us can't put a number on for your situation. The answer is supply and demand. The demand and supply dictates the wage. Is there a lot of plumbers or not enough, is the demand high for skilled plumbers or is the demand for cheap hacks. Here we have enough demand and not quite enough supply to the point that I feel like we will start to see an increase in wages over the next 5 years. We just got rid of a guy that constantly made dumb mistakes. Just in time for slowing down a bit. We are still hanging on to the most un teachable apprentice that really has no business being a plumber just because we can't find anyone else. Around here a J-man goes for around $21-$30 DOE
> 
> Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


We are priced higher than most, but not the highest (Micheal and Sons). Our goal is 70 percent conversion rate (customers says yes to work), and we loose plenty of work due to price concerns. So there is plenty of work out there that is getting done by one man truck operations, or other companies. not to say they are hacks. 

We get all our water heaters inspected, so that drives up costs for the customer, relocating within 20ft of crawl door, routing t and p out foundations, etc.

So, I guess if we can afford to turn calls away there is plenty of work. 

But I will say this, we go through techs at an alarming rate. There is a core group of 3 or 4 guys that are still around since I started, but I have seen at least 5 techs in 8 months fired due to missing work, missing meetings, call back issues, quality of work, etc.

I don't know if they are looking for a very specific type of tech, and they burn through a bunch trying to find them or what, I don't know. It scares me frankly.

Or maybe that's how ****ty the talent pool is around here, I don't know, I only really apprenticed with the 3 or 4 guys that were seasoned so I don't get to see the others work, or attendance.


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

ECH said:


> We are priced higher than most, but not the highest (Micheal and Sons). Our goal is 70 percent conversion rate (customers says yes to work), and we loose plenty of work due to price concerns. So there is plenty of work out there that is getting done by one man truck operations, or other companies. not to say they are hacks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds a bit like the typical big company that promises their techs the sky and don't deliver. The fact that you refer to you and your fellow employees as techs gives me the impression that they might not even train real plumbers but just unlicensed techs and that might be why you have a high turnaround rate.

I'm not trying to disrespect you or anything but something just does not sound right to me. Have you had an apprentice card and gotten your hours registered with your state?

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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

ECH said:


> We are priced higher than most, but not the highest (Micheal and Sons). Our goal is 70 percent conversion rate (customers says yes to work), and we loose plenty of work due to price concerns. So there is plenty of work out there that is getting done by one man truck operations, or other companies. not to say they are hacks.
> 
> We get all our water heaters inspected, so that drives up costs for the customer, relocating within 20ft of crawl door, routing t and p out foundations, etc.
> 
> ...


I read in another one of your posts that you work for a Nextstar company. RUN!


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

Debo22 said:


> I read in another one of your posts that you work for a Nextstar company. RUN!


So my general gut feeling was right.

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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

After I had already started the business rolling along I got online and looked up the average journeyman rate for Oregon. 

It was somewhere around 32/hr and I was the one bringing down the average big time.

I mean the reality of the situation was that I was making plenty of money, far above average wage for most people in this area. However responsibility shifts to me doing 95% of the work load was not equivalent to my pay which had been stagnant for 6 years.

I do good work, I care about people's property to the point where if something else seems out of place I make a point to mention it to them especially in situations where the property is a rental.

I had a literal poster board full of notes that people sent in with their payments describing the quality of my work, my personality etc etc......

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it depends on how much of a #^&% your boss gives about you.


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

Debo22 said:


> I read in another one of your posts that you work for a Nextstar company. RUN!





The Dane said:


> So my general gut feeling was right.
> 
> Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


Interesting, this is my first plumbing job so I don't know any different. What are your thoughts on Nexstar, clearly there are some opinions?


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

The Dane said:


> Sounds a bit like the typical big company that promises their techs the sky and don't deliver. The fact that you refer to you and your fellow employees as techs gives me the impression that they might not even train real plumbers but just unlicensed techs and that might be why you have a high turnaround rate.
> 
> I'm not trying to disrespect you or anything but something just does not sound right to me. Have you had an apprentice card and gotten your hours registered with your state?
> 
> Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


The company should be tracking my hours, but admittedly, I have not checked on that though. NC needs to see 4000 hrs to sit for licence test, I am not even to half of that.

We have apprentice meetings where we do classroom learning, and meetings where all the residential plumbers go over technical skills/troubleshooting skills.

Everyone is encouraged to get licenced, but the general consensus is that it doesn't really translate into significantly more money, unless the person went out on their own, so everyone just chugs along, working under the owners licence.

Several of the guys had been licenced, and owned their own business at one time or another, but bowed out due to being frustrated with the admin side of things, or stress level, etc. One guy told me he was making about the same here as he was on his own, but without the hassles of running the show.

Now some things have changed with the pay structure, and spiffs, etc, so that guy is now not happy with what he is making. And lots of grumbling about earnings vs what we charge, etc, etc.

I'm just trying to navigate a totally new industry, and help is appreciated. Honest opinions welcome, you won't offend me. 

I don't want to be wasting my time with a place that isn't going to be worth my time.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Debo22 said:


> I read in another one of your posts that you work for a Nextstar company. RUN!


Interesting what is nextstar?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

ECH said:


> The company should be tracking my hours, but admittedly, I have not checked on that though. NC needs to see 4000 hrs to sit for licence test, I am not even to half of that.
> 
> We have apprentice meetings where we do classroom learning, and meetings where all the residential plumbers go over technical skills/troubleshooting skills.
> 
> ...


Their have been a number of apprentice plumbers on this site that have been in the same boat as yours and the warning signs are evident here that you are in line to get what is called a "good stiff screwing" from the company you are presently working for....maybe I am wrong about this but it happens all the time..... 

You had best start taking your future seriously and not depend on what all the plumber buddies at your present company thinks about getting their lisc and what they are gonna make .vs working for this place... they are NOT doing you any favors... 

Like with others who have posted before you, time passes fast and you sit in your spot until the day comes you want to grow , perhaps because of your wife or kids that come along... THEN you find out your company has probably never documented your time or registered you as an apprentice in the first place like by law they were supposed to do years ago... It just slipped their minds... :surprise:.

Your company needs slaves + grunts, and they want you to be a good TOBY for them... Odds are that They WILL give you the run-around and impede your progress about getting paperwork done that should have been filed 5 years ago for you so you would be on track to get your journeymen s or Masters card...:surprise:

Of course the excuse your big boss will make is he does not have the time to go before whatever kind of plumbing board their is in your state to get your records filed for you..., 
If you jump up and down with your boss about dragging his feet to get your paperwork in order , and you get mad because they should have done all this for you 5 years ago, just remember they can fire you any time and you are gonna have to start all over again as a lowley apprentice at the bottom.

NOW This is what I already described as " a good stiff screwing" 

I suggest that you work hard to get your Masters or Journeymens card asap or 

*lube up and bend over cause life has a gift for you * ....:crying:.


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

Tango said:


> Interesting what is nextstar?


From what I have been told since being hired:

Nexstar is a third party company that provides training on customer service, training on business practices at all levels, management, sales, dispatch, etc etc.

My personal opinion so far is that, if you asked me if Nexstar is designed to help us help customers, or help drive revenue, I would say "yes".

For us in the trucks, it means we are "encouraged" to follow a particular process throughout the call, based on Nexstars research into (basically) how to get customers to say yes. 

The "process", involves things like "setting an agenda" with the customer at the beginning of the call, since most people are very anxious about having a service person to their house, the agenda helps them know what to expect and puts their mind at ease because they know how things will proceed.

The agenda, is a chance to let the customers know that we would like to look at several key components of their plumbing system, like the main shut off, washing machine hoses, and water heater, and the water pressure in the home. Sometimes you can tie this into the root cause of the problem we were called for. 

Think "toilet fill valve leaking call", home pressure should be checked for a failed prv obviously. A garbage disposal call, can be difficult to transition to "let me look at your water heater", so you need to build that relationship, so when you offer to take a look at it for them, they trust that you have their best interest in mind, and your not trying to up sell. Because we *are* trying to keep their home safe, and reliable (and produce revenue).

Many customers love this, since they know nothing about plumbing and would love for us to make recommendations. Some people see this as us trying to up sell. It does come from an ethical place though, that is paramount at our shop. I have never seen anyone fired for low revenue numbers. Only **** work, or attendance, not being good with customers, etc.

Now, this is the process trying to drive revenue, yes. But it is also us trying to take care of the customers in the long term and build value to our services. You guys are all experienced plumbers, so I don't have to tell you the problems with a failed prv, water logged expantion tank, an old gate valve that has never been used, or old rubber washing machine hoses. 

Many of our customers have no idea where their main shut off is, so we help them find it. Imagine they have a pipe burst and the second floor lav is leaking all over the place and the angle stop washer is long gone.

Now the customer knows where the main is, and how to use it.

And so on and so on.

We give between 4 and 6 options for repair/replacement, all of which will fix the problem we were called out for. But through asking "lifestyle" questions during the call, we can learn if (for example) they are running out of hot water because the kids are in the shower forever, etc.

So that info (for example) is an invite to offer a solution, like a tankless, or e max booster, or tank booster, etc. Or a flood stop if the tank is in the attic. And so on and so on.

Basically, a lot of it comes down to learning if they are even happy with their current product, and offering solutions to those issues they may have, since the vast majority of people have no idea that there are products out there that can solve their issues. Like a grundfos comfort system to get hot water to the bathroom quicker.

If they choose the minimum safe repair, that is perfectly fine, if we can make their system better, based on what they don't like about it, we owe it to them to offer it.

The part that most plumbers have trouble with (from what I have seen), is that the plumber doesn't offer upgrades since they make the decision for the customer based on what _they_ think the customer needs or doesn't need.

Some people want to drive a Mercedes, even though the Ford would get them from A to B also. 

Who are we to push the Ford?

Me, I'm a Ford driver, so I have a hard time "selling", unless they truly show an interest in solving the issue, I don't like to push. I am more of a fixer, but I'm new. 

A lot of Nexstar is building confidence in your value as a plumber and what you provide, and owning the pricebook and standing strong when you get pushback on price.

Sorry for the long post.


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> Their have been a number of apprentice plumbers on this site that have been in the same boat as yours and the warning signs are evident here that you are in line to get what is called a "good stiff screwing" from the company you are presently working for.....
> 
> you had best start taking your future seriously and not depend on what all the buddies at your present company thinks about getting their lisc and what they are gonna make .vs working for this place... they are NOT doing you any favors...
> 
> ...


Your right, I have been lax about double checking that they are recording properly.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

It feels just like the service guys here, they don't need a plumbing certificate nor do they need to go to a plumbing school. The result, backwards piping, nothing to code, blocked drains, angry customers. I'm starting to love them because I get to fix their $hit to make a living and gain a referral.


The boss loves the guy who have no education and work for peanuts as long as the check clears and can run to the next job. They have to make major profits to keep their 3 Harley's and pay the electricity for the hot tubs in winter you know. They love employees who don't keep track of their hours, they don't have to pay them as much when you could of been a journey man for 2 years. Did I tell you about the guy who stayed 4th year for many many years because he wanted to be hired instead of a hired priced journeyman? I will always think of him as a fool.


When they kick you to the curb because you asked for a raise above minimum wage and you go to do real plumbing on new construction they may not even let you on the job site you won't have a plumbing degree and you can't read the plans.


You want to go far in life go to school and get certificates. Read my intro and you'll see the difference it makes. The guys who were lazy and secretly said BS behind my back well now they are quiet around me. Some of them asked me for a job when I got my contractor licence!


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

There was also a few guy here on this forum who didn't keep track of their hours, didn't do any effort to have proof. When it came time to prove those hours to do the journeyman test those hours were ineligible. How about that! You can go crawling back to work for that lousy company another 8 years to collect those hours again.

What will you be, smart and be DISCIPLINED or lazy? You see no one cares if you fail then. You are getting invaluable advice from the guys here.


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

ECH said:


> From what I have been told since being hired:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong with a long post. This post does however sound to me like a brainwashed sales speech meant for customers.
If you have been lax about double checking wether your employer has registered you as an apprentice and reported your hours, I would say your already in trouble. I don't know about your state but most states will give you an apprentice card and expect you to carry it on your person when working. If you got a card and you got a new one every year when it was renewed you should be fine. If not then you are likely screwed. I would never trust anyone else with such an important thing, that is why from day one I personally took care of getting the paperwork printed out, signed by employer and sent in to the state.

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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

ECH said:


> I know that this question has a ton of variables, but lets say:
> 
> A guy apprentices for a while and does a great job, acquires every tool needed for 99 percent of of the jobs he would be selling, and gets his own truck. Has excellent quality of work, is producing revenue in the upper middle of the average, has no problem showing up every day, is good with customers, plenty of life experience, and generally has no major issues other than not having years of professional plumbing experience.
> 
> ...



I read through this thread and you are looking at your question from the wrong prospective, not what you should be getting paid, but what you NEED to get paid to support yourself and family, if you arent making enough then what YOU need todo to change that, companies want to pay you the least amount to keep you working along with any bull$hit promises...if you want to get licensed and work for yourself, go find out from the governing bodies that control licenses what you need to prove to start taking the tests, dont rely on some company you work for or the internet forums, goto the source and ask yourself, anything but that is just you being lazy and not caring or wanting it enough, and thats not a put down to you but should be a motivator for you to move your a$$ in the right direction...


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

I appreciate the information fellas. 

I feel I should clarify some things, my family and I moved down to NC about 8 months ago for a job opportunity for my wife. I had been working for a large commercial printer for nearly 20 years, lots of leadership experience, many different skill sets, pneumatic, hydraulic, mechanical, machinist, plumbing experience, 4 weeks vacation, excellent pay, lots of tenure, etc.

The internet is killing catalogues, and we were sick of the cold winters in PA, her parents live in Florida and their health is failing, so it is close to halfway to them and my parents. So we sold our house, and took the plunge. Now, my wife has always made good money, but now it's really good, and she is the primary breadwinner.

I looked around at my options during the two months I didn't have a job lined up, (have been for 10yrs or so) and decided to try out plumbing. The company I contacted offered retirement, free benefits, runs a no on call model (this is critical because my wife can drop off the little one at daycare, but can never pick up by 6pm from daycare).

So, I talked with the owners at the interview and asked what the average end time for the work day was, they said between 4 and 5. This worked out perfectly, I could learn a trade, be home for the kids, make a little extra money to bring in, etc. They asked me what I wanted to be paid, and I could set my own hourly wage. I chose a wage that was in the range of somebody that worked a couple years, and got promoted once (based on my printing company experiences). I knew this wouldn't be enough to support the family, but I was asking for some pretty large concessions, off by 5, etc. 

Fast forward a month or two, and I was getting home late pretty often, this was unacceptable because it meant my oldest would have to walk and walk back with the youngest across a fairly busy road. So I sat down with my manager and he promised to have me back to the shop by 5 minimum 3 days a week. They are sticking to this fairly well, every so often I have a 3 day where I get back late, I am in a truck now so I can manage my own time much better.

They have sent the parts runner out, sometimes a manager out to get me so I can be back it time. So I do believe they care. It is one of the core values of the company, taking care of the employees, and while they sometimes fall short, from what I see, they do care.

I have asked for, and gotten a 2 dollar raise so far, and have spoken with the manager about another and he was receptive to it.

The pay structure being what it is, means that a guy that is hourly at 20 per hour but sells decently, say 6-7 a month in revenue, can bring in more than a guy that makes 30, since the guy that makes 30 has to hit nearly 10,000 in rev before any kind of bonus kicks in. If he does sewer replacements, he can hit it, but not consistently.

So I'm not jumping the gun to get my hourly rate way up there.

As far as the Nexstar thing, it felt weird to me at first, but think of it this way, we as plumbers know of products that almost all customers know nothing about.

Why should the only option I give them when I come to their home, to be to rebuild a toilet, when through a little bit of conversation, I learn that they hate the toilet anyway, it's too low, and the smash their d%&k in the seat every time they use it.

Or the water heater is dead, and rather than just replacing like for like, they tell me they hate waiting for hot water in the morning shower. I am going to offer a tankless with recirc, or a comfort system, etc. I will absolutely give the price to replace like for like.

Or only offer a spot repair to an aging copper or polybutylene piping system? I'm going to give them an option for a re pipe, and a spot repair, and a few things in between. The re pipe will save them money in the future, but maybe they cant afford that right now, and that's perfectly fine.

Customers want options, they don't want us to come to there home and essentially say "this is what you have to do, you have no choice". There are plenty of plumbers that will rebuild that toilet or even replace it, for less than we charge, but I assure you we will give you the better customer experience. We will be there if anything goes wrong down the road, within the hour usually. How many crappy installs have we seen from lowes or home depot, and something went wrong and now the customer cant get them out there to make it right? That is not us.

I see no ethical dilemma. They choose the option that best fits them and their situation.

Does it drive revenue, sure. But first and foremost, it's being there to get the customer where they want to be, revenue is a byproduct.

Crap work is not tolerated, all water heaters, water mains, sewer lines, and drain and supply re pipes are inspected.

Could everyone in the shop design a system from the ground up, maybe maybe not, but we are adhering to code at all times. The owner does not tolerate poor craftsmanship.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

ECH,
Good Questions and well writen! Very hard to answer, How much you should make,and whether you should be able to support a wife and 2 kids. Should wife be able to support her husband and kids befor getting knocked up? Man could get a bad illness or crippled. Dont worry about how much you should make you will never think its enough or that you are earning more than you should. Just worry about making as much as you can. Doing what you think is right. To me Service and repair can be challenge in what you should make or charge client . What is ethical is differant from person to person.
I would recomend following others suggestion and politely make sure your paper work in order do not delay . If that aint happening go to next shop . Its great having a steady job but if this shop isnt that good pay accept it as a great experiance and move on. Its such a broad trade learning and experiance in new construction residential . commercial institution and industrial is what I think best but many are happy and make a ton of money just knowing a small part, like drain clearing or water heaters or repiping. 
Many people lack the balls or motivation, to jump ship I got relative making 11 an hour " supporting" a wife and 2 kids , wife makes about the same hourly part time, they are a burden on thier family having them help raise kids while they work. How a man could work only 40 hours a week and only one job is beyond me in such a situation 3 years on the job and no chance for advancement but to each thier own.
Good luck in your carear ECH and keep your eyes and ears open dont be complacent


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

jeffreyplumber said:


> ECH,
> Good Questions and well writen! Very hard to answer, How much you should make,and whether you should be able to support a wife and 2 kids. Should wife be able to support her husband and kids befor getting knocked up? Man could get a bad illness or crippled. Dont worry about how much you should make you will never think its enough or that you are earning more than you should. Just worry about making as much as you can. Doing what you think is right. To me Service and repair can be challenge in what you should make or charge client . What is ethical is differant from person to person.
> I would recomend following others suggestion and politely make sure your paper work in order do not delay . If that aint happening go to next shop . Its great having a steady job but if this shop isnt that good pay accept it as a great experiance and move on. Its such a broad trade learning and experiance in new construction residential . commercial institution and industrial is what I think best but many are happy and make a ton of money just knowing a small part, like drain clearing or water heaters or repiping.
> Many people lack the balls or motivation, to jump ship I got relative making 11 an hour " supporting" a wife and 2 kids , wife makes about the same hourly part time, they are a burden on thier family having them help raise kids while they work. How a man could work only 40 hours a week and only one job is beyond me in such a situation 3 years on the job and no chance for advancement but to each thier own.
> Good luck in your carear ECH and keep your eyes and ears open dont be complacent


Ok it sounds like you might have a legit good company to work for. I still ask if you have an apprentice card in hand or any evidence of hours reported to the proper licencing authority? No matter how good an employer might be I still think only a fool blindly trusts others with such an important part of your career. You could work for 4 years and think you can test for the J-man license and realise that nothing has been reported which means you have to do another 4 years of apprenticeship before qualifying for the rest. That not only sets you back in pay but also means you worked illegally for 4 years and if caught could have been denied ever getting a real plumbers license or could have gotten you in real bad trouble if someone got hurt because of your work.

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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

Didnt see your last post ECH befor sending mine so that changes things a bit.
You seem pretty happy there getting ok money you like the owners. All in a short time only complaint is not getting off on the time you like. Dont what to tell you something about every job sucks. but you are the boss of yourself only a short investment so far mayby go work in an office in piping related field


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

The Dane said:


> Ok it sounds like you might have a legit good company to work for. I still ask if you have an apprentice card in hand or any evidence of hours reported to the proper licencing authority? No matter how good an employer might be I still think only a fool blindly trusts others with such an important part of your career. You could work for 4 years and think you can test for the J-man license and realise that nothing has been reported which means you have to do another 4 years of apprenticeship before qualifying for the rest. That not only sets you back in pay but also means you worked illegally for 4 years and if caught could have been denied ever getting a real plumbers license or could have gotten you in real bad trouble if someone got hurt because of your work.
> 
> Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


Your are absolutely right, and I will be following up with these things on Monday. My company is a member of the NC PHCC program which is an apprentice program. So I don't think they are screwing me, but you are right, I need to KNOW that they arent.

http://www.phccnc.com/phcc-academy-of-nc/?

It has been a crazy half a year, with getting kids in school, moving twice, new job for both of us, etc.

As far as I know, you need 4000hrs of ojt to sit for the licence test. I don't know of any journeyman's test, or certification, or apprentice card. Nothing on the NC boards website talks about anything more than a P1 and P2 licence as far as plumbing is concerned, and no mention of journeyman anything. My understanding is that once you have the 4000 hrs, or 2000 classroom and 2000 ojt, you are considered a journeyman.

The other thing is that truth be told, I don't know that I want to be in business for myself. I hate numbers and administrative tasks. I like fixing stuff, and fishing, and spending time with my kids, and wife (mostly :biggrin. A steady paycheck, and decent hours and a 401k to help with retirement is just fine with me, I was on that path for many years. 

I do want the option though, so I will get things straightened out with my hours.

Thanks guys.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> There was also a few guy here on this forum who didn't keep track of their hours, didn't do any effort to have proof. When it came time to prove those hours to do the journeyman test those hours were ineligible. How about that! You can go crawling back to work for that lousy company another 8 years to collect those hours again.
> 
> What will you be, smart and be DISCIPLINED or lazy? You see no one cares if you fail then. You are getting invaluable advice from the guys here.




Tango.... its called a "life lesson" or a "good stiff screwing" 
or a "fisting all the way up to the elbow" take your pick....

yee-haw it dont get any better than that :surprise::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:

this guy should really pay us for all the pain and future disappointment he will avoid if he takes our advice to heart ..and proceeds with caution and diplomacy......


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

The Dane said:


> Ok it sounds like you might have a legit good company to work for. I still ask if you have an apprentice card in hand or any evidence of hours reported to the proper licencing authority? No matter how good an employer might be I still think only a fool blindly trusts others with such an important part of your career. You could work for 4 years and think you can test for the J-man license and realise that nothing has been reported which means you have to do another 4 years of apprenticeship before qualifying for the rest. That not only sets you back in pay but also means you worked illegally for 4 years and if caught could have been denied ever getting a real plumbers license or could have gotten you in real bad trouble if someone got hurt because of your work.
> 
> Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


 Look out for yourself Each state is differant . Dont know where ECM is from or that he may be prevented from "EVER" getting licence in his juridiction or get in real bad trouble by hurting someone. I never heard of this in my state though Contracting without licence could get you in jail. It sure as hell aint scaring anyone from doing it .


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

This industry is definitely an eye opener for me. Working in manufacturing, as long as you show up every day, you get paid. If you show up and do a good job, you get paid well and get promoted.

There is no pricing, or admin stuff to deal with, just the work. I was an apprentice/journeyman for several different job titles as I got promoted, and I have those cards (rolltender, assistant pressman, pressman).

The printing industry is more of a job now, as opposed to the "craft" it used to be before technology changed the game. Printing plates (the image) used to take about 4 hours to make because it had to be developed like a photo, so if there was a mistake, we could hone off extra image, etc. Now with computer-to-plate, it takes 20min to get another plate. Press runs are smaller and smaller because it costs less to make the press ready for different images/type, and catalogers want to tailor to their customers specific locations. Postal rates go up and kill profits for printers.

It's just a dying industry, well maybe not dying, but not near the profit margins there once were, and there is so much capacity, and not enough work out there anymore. And I didn't feel secure that it would make it till I retired.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

ECH said:


> This industry is definitely an eye opener for me. Working in manufacturing, as long as you show up every day, you get paid. If you show up and do a good job, you get paid well and get promoted.
> 
> There is no pricing, or admin stuff to deal with, just the work. I was an apprentice/journeyman for several different job titles as I got promoted, and I have those cards (rolltender, assistant pressman, pressman).
> 
> ...


actually our plumbing industry is going to hell in a handbasket....in a few years everyone who knows how to do plumbing will probably be retired and their is no one who wants to take their places but a bunch of meth-head losers with tatoos spattered all over them.....

if you are competent and know what you are doing and play your cards right you could do very well indeed when this all starts to hit the fan,,, its coming very soon 

If you stay on tract and earn your masters lisc, you can start your own business and be in demand in many areas of the country... and retire from there some day..


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

I know that it is a possibility, I just don't know if I want to deal with all the hassle. I hear about a lot of guys that are doing the work during the day, then have to deal with the admin stuff in the evening, yada yada. Insurance, liability, a-hole customers, etc, etc.

It's got nothing to do with laziness, I give 110 every day, but I am not interested in spending every waking moment dealing with work. My manager owned a couple companies in New York, but had to step away due to what he was becoming, dealing with the stress. Another plumber in our shop ran his own show but dissolved it because he was tired of dealing with the BS, different tax rates for different counties, trying to keep track of it all etc.

The trades are littered with broken families and divorcees. I'm not interested in that. My wife has no interest in staying at home, she wants to work and so I can't just work all day to support everybody, I don't have to anyway. Together we make excellent money, and are home to take the kids to sports, watch their games, and generally be around for them.

No body ever laid in their deathbed and said "I wish I worked more, or made more money"

I am not a Millenial, but the truth is that "we" are the ones that raised the millennials, we are the ones that taught them they should value family time and work life balance. That is why they have no interest in the trades. In my opinion, the issue is not so much about that they don't want to work hard, it's that the hours (in service work for a company anyway) are crazy, and the pay isn't good enough to have the wife stay at home and take care of all the things that need to be taken care of, unless you want to live in a double wide 45 min away from your service area. Who wants to never see their kids anyway, even if the pay is excellent, or have them go to substandard public schools cause you can't afford to live where your customers live.

If you sat down a room full of plumbers and asked them if they recommend their kids get into the trades, how many would emphatically say yes? My dad was a carpenter for over 40 years, and he was able to get to damn near every one of my games, done by 5 religiously.

In service plumbing, I have been on jobs till as late as midnight, and everything in between. How does a person plan a life like that? Doctors work those types of hours, but they get paid well enough to pay somebody to pick up the kids, clean the house, etc etc. How would I ever have time to maintain rental properties (one of my retirement plans) if I'm working all day and doing paperwork at night, or running back to some customer who is impossible to please etc.

Where I am, not many would want that for their kids. It is a great way to be secure and always have work, yes.

Please understand, I am in no way thinking or saying that is how it is in Plumbing, or making assumptions about the members of this forum. I am just relaying what I have seen working and talking with guys in my shop, that have been doing plumbing for many years.

Some of them are a real mess, a couple seem to have their s&%t squared away, but most don't.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

oportunity endless in this trade. Quite an eyeopener for me too. I took a leap after 20 years in the buisness and doubled my income. No comission no sales no BSing old ladys out of thier money. Just working new construction, Go to wqrk bust your ass stay off your cell phone never ever be late never ever miss a day keep your mouth shut make 50 an hour plus a retirement and health insurance home by 4 pm No one wants a job like mine either because it sucks doing physical work. Its a great trade whether Construction or Service I lean toward Construction and bigger work not to interested in starting my own company I am licsenced but work for others. You really can do so many differant things. I dont belive trade is going to hell. just a lot of slacker out there making it better for those willing to put thier selves to work .


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

ECH said:


> I know that it is a possibility, I just don't know if I want to deal with all the hassle. I hear about a lot of guys that are doing the work during the day, then have to deal with the admin stuff in the evening, yada yada. Insurance, liability, a-hole customers, etc, etc.
> 
> It's got nothing to do with laziness, I give 110 every day, but I am not interested in spending every waking moment dealing with work. My manager owned a couple companies in New York, but had to step away due to what he was becoming, dealing with the stress. Another plumber in our shop ran his own show but dissolved it because he was tired of dealing with the BS, different tax rates for different counties, trying to keep track of it all etc.
> 
> ...








You know ...... If enough of us had voted for hillary , then we might all just be getting a check in the mail every month and none of us would have to deal with the hassels and headaches of running a business and worrying about insurance , customers, employees, and other things that take us away from our families and fun things we like to do every day..... but I dont think it would work for very long that way.... t hey claim it would but it probably wont

You know that most places you are gonna work their might be a chance of missing a kids game on occasion.... you plan your life as best possible and then hope things shake out as you planned.... Its commendable that you dont want to miss out on any of this but its still wise to spend your time with advanceing your skills and abilities in the field you are in......

If you dont like the work you are doing then find something behind a desk somewhere.. of course those jobs have hassels and issues too,, ..
Most o f us are probably not gonna be working at Google in upper management any time soon... so it might be wise to do the best you can where you are at and try to envision a more positive and brighter future .


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

ECH said:


> I know that it is a possibility, I just don't know if I want to deal with all the hassle. I hear about a lot of guys that are doing the work during the day, then have to deal with the admin stuff in the evening, yada yada. Insurance, liability, a-hole customers, etc, etc.
> 
> It's got nothing to do with laziness, I give 110 every day, but I am not interested in spending every waking moment dealing with work. My manager owned a couple companies in New York, but had to step away due to what he was becoming, dealing with the stress. Another plumber in our shop ran his own show but dissolved it because he was tired of dealing with the BS, different tax rates for different counties, trying to keep track of it all etc.
> 
> ...



waa waa waa, geez what a cry baby, dude if you dont like where you work QUIT..if you think any other job is without hassles or problems and weighs in on family obligations or creates divorces, you need to get out in the world alittle bit more....if you want a 9 to 5 job go get one..maybe they will let you take any amount of days off for your personal enjoyment..who knows maybe in dream land you can find it...
there is no perfect job, so you have to weigh the good and bad and see which one wins out, but honestly you sound a bit whiny here and I dont think any job will meet with your satisfaction...
giving it 110% at work is great, but has no bearing on your complaints....if you did nothing at work it would still be the same issues...
when you find that perfect job report back and maybe everyone else here will follow your lead..


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

jeffreyplumber said:


> Look out for yourself Each state is differant . Dont know where ECM is from or that he may be prevented from "EVER" getting licence in his juridiction or get in real bad trouble by hurting someone. I never heard of this in my state though Contracting without licence could get you in jail. It sure as hell aint scaring anyone from doing it .


I said that if caught plumbing without a license he could possibly be denied ever getting a real plumbing license, and yes in most of the states this is a possibility. So you are saying that in your state contracting without a license could mean jail time yet you have never heard about it being possible to get in real bad trouble legally if doing so? 

If doing gas lines and something happens and someone gets hurt or dies, or doing water lines and contaminating a city water line making people sick. You don't think the lawyers would be fast to point out that you are unlicensed and therefore willingly put peoples lives and safety at risk? 

In all states lawyers would have a field day with you if you went to court and was unlicensed. In most if not all states the local plumbing authority has the right to grant, deny or revoke your license so yes you risk losing the ability to ever gain a legal plumbing license in that jurisdiction, and if you move and any other state finds out about you being denied a license in a different state they too could deny you a license.
Are you not seeing how being unlicensed could be really bad for you then?

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

I didn't read all of the posts, but I'm just throwing this out there : 

A working wage is one thing, but your personal time is even more valuable IMO. One of the things I decided when I was tossing around the idea of my business is that my kids are growing, and FAST as hell. Why on God's green earth do I want to spend that time sitting in an unheated building in the dead of winter waiting on a phone that won't ring, and not get paid for the time I was required to be at work? Then when I do decide that i'm not going to sit and waste my time, get berated about it as if I'm some kind of f*5king slacker.

No.

I have better things to do with my life. Now : the phone rings? Great, I go to work, get things done, make people happy, get paid. Phone doesn't ring? Get ahead of the paperwork or I head down the road and get the kids from school instead of making them sit at the "latch-key" program all afternoon. We go outside and shoot hoops in the driveway, kick the soccer ball around or just screw around in the house together if the weather sucks.

I honestly could use more work, although we are surviving and none of the bills are late or unpaid. This really has been one of the most rewarding years in terms of family life that i've been able to enjoy since I had kids.

I can't say I'd ever go back to the way it was before.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

I think instead of getting hung up on licensed or non-licensed(because that doesn't apply to many states or counties evenly or at all in many places) we should focus on what that employee does. We aren't talking about a guy having his own business are we? Most places being an employee of a licensed plumber is good enough. And I don't know about most of you but as has already been mentioned, I too have seen licensed guys who do shizzier work than some dedicated home owners. Unfortunately some guys get to the point where knowing how to do it correctly also means knowing where to cut corners to get in and out fast.



I think if you have gotten to the point of being trusted driving around with 20,000$+ worth of equipment and working alone in peoples houses than you should be able to support a spouse, two kids, and a house. As for a solid numbers figure, I'm not sure. We don't work on commission so I can't speak to that but my guess for starting pay once you've gotten your own van is like 40,000$. If you remain an employee I don't think you could expect to earn more than 80,000$




.


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

skoronesa said:


> I think if you have gotten to the point of being trusted driving around with 20,000$+ worth of equipment and working alone in peoples houses than you should be able to support a spouse, two kids, and a house. As for a solid numbers figure, I'm not sure. We don't work on commission so I can't speak to that but my guess for starting pay once you've gotten your own van is like 40,000$. If you remain an employee I don't think you could expect to earn more than 80,000$
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed, but I LMFAO at both of those income figures. My boss was such a d*ck.

It's nice to not be bitter. :vs_laugh:


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> You know ...... If enough of us had voted for hillary , then we might all just be getting a check in the mail every month and none of us would have to deal with the hassels and headaches of running a business and worrying about insurance , customers, employees, and other things that take us away from our families and fun things we like to do every day..... but I dont think it would work for very long that way.... t hey claim it would but it probably wont
> 
> You know that most places you are gonna work their might be a chance of missing a kids game on occasion.... you plan your life as best possible and then hope things shake out as you planned.... Its commendable that you dont want to miss out on any of this but its still wise to spend your time with advanceing your skills and abilities in the field you are in......
> 
> ...


Lol, I'm no socialist, that's for sure. Just used to manufacturing, where there is a start time, and an end time. Sure there were times where I was asked to stay late and put in some OT, but for the most part, you knew when you were expected to be there, and when you expected to leave. The employee/employer relationship is a contract as well........

I have worked 6 hour plans, where you worked 6hr during the 5 weekdays, then 2 12s on the weekend, so off every other weekend. When you were on 6am to noon, that plan was the s$%t, done by noon every day during the week. Noon to 6pm wasn't bad, 6pm to midnight was the worst for family time, great for partying. Midnight to 6am was good all around for home life, but couldn't snuggle with wifey much.

I have worked 8hr plans where you work 7 in a row, then 2 off, 7 on, 2 off, 7 on 3 off. That one wasn't too bad, you got some days off during the week to do doctor apptments, etc.

And I have worked 12hr plans that were 2 on 2 off 2 on 3 off. That was great because you got 15-16 days off a month, any day you work that wasn't your scheduled day to work was OT, no matter what day it was. 12hrs made for a long day on your feet on concrete.




ShtRnsdownhill said:


> waa waa waa, geez what a cry baby, dude if you dont like where you work QUIT..if you think any other job is without hassles or problems and weighs in on family obligations or creates divorces, you need to get out in the world alittle bit more....if you want a 9 to 5 job go get one..maybe they will let you take any amount of days off for your personal enjoyment..who knows maybe in dream land you can find it...
> there is no perfect job, so you have to weigh the good and bad and see which one wins out, but honestly you sound a bit whiny here and I dont think any job will meet with your satisfaction...
> giving it 110% at work is great, but has no bearing on your complaints....if you did nothing at work it would still be the same issues...
> when you find that perfect job report back and maybe everyone else here will follow your lead..


I hear ya, I'm just observing that in the service plumbing industry, there seems to be quite a large gap between what we are expected to do, be it working odd hours, or wading through the gooey center of the pipe, and the reward/compensation given. Factory work is not the greatest eather, but I made good money, and knew when I was coming home.

This is of course, my opinion. It is based on only 8 months or so of being in the plumbing industry, but observing other folks who have been in it a while. 

People doing work for dirt cheap has lowered the bar for the rest of us that want to do it right (my opinion), and that forces people to stay late and install that WH they sold at 3pm, for fear that if they say they will come back and do it tomorrow that the customer will call somebody else.

We should be raising the bar, Plumbing is a Noble Trade, perhaps the most Noble, I think it's time we/you are given the respect you deserve for doing what very very few are willing to do.

If you already are at that point, then that is awesome, I am truly happy for you. I am not at that point yet, that's all.



Alan said:


> I didn't read all of the posts, but I'm just throwing this out there :
> 
> *A working wage is one thing, but your personal time is even more valuable IMO. * One of the things I decided when I was tossing around the idea of my business is that my kids are growing, and FAST as hell. Why on God's green earth do I want to spend that time sitting in an unheated building in the dead of winter waiting on a phone that won't ring, and not get paid for the time I was required to be at work? Then when I do decide that i'm not going to sit and waste my time, get berated about it as if I'm some kind of f*5king slacker.
> 
> ...


Abso-freaking-lutely.

This gives me hope for the future of maybe owning my own business.



skoronesa said:


> I think instead of getting hung up on licensed or non-licensed(because that doesn't apply to many states or counties evenly or at all in many places) we should focus on what that employee does. We aren't talking about a guy having his own business are we? Most places being an employee of a licensed plumber is good enough. And I don't know about most of you but as has already been mentioned, I too have seen licensed guys who do shizzier work than some dedicated home owners. Unfortunately some guys get to the point where knowing how to do it correctly also means knowing where to cut corners to get in and out fast.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is the point I am trying to make. My company has put that trust in me, and thinks that much of me. Is a living wage asking too much?

I say nay.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Those figures are representative of my area and reflect a higher cost of living as well as the presence of wealthier residents. Most of the complaints you guys have are not an issue here. The seasons are such and the community is communicative in a way that the hacks only get a couple jobs and they are sol. We have a certain number of longstanding companies and individuals who are known to do good work and any "new" competition ends up being the younger generation who were trained by the same longstanding companies.

I feel really bad for you guys, especially tango. With the exception of town drunks going off a backroad and some heroin problems like everywhere we really don't have much crime.


.


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

There are plenty of people running around putting water heaters in for 1500 bucks. And if things go sideways, you won't ever hear from them again, and no way to get the word out about the hack work. So they can't be stopped.

A 50 gal lowboy in a crawl for example, getting everything up to code so it passes inspection, the pad, moving it 20ft from crawl door if needed, piping t and p out foundation, disconnect with whip, etc. Our price out the door with permit fee is about $2300. Like for like doesn't call for permitting, but we pull it anyway, it's a "thing" with our owner, not sure why.

Some customers laugh us out the door, and that's fine, they aren't our customers. There are plenty of people that understand the value of good work and a company that will be there to back it up 5 years later, those are our customers.

Some people just want it cheap, and don't care whether it would pass an inspection, average amount of time people own a home here before selling and moving on is 7 years, so they figure it will be somebody else's problem I guess.


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## canuck92 (Apr 1, 2016)

New jmans usually start at 25/h ( non union ) in my area . An yes i would always like more. Im a moraholic lol


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

QUOT:

"I hear ya, I'm just observing that in the service plumbing industry, there seems to be quite a large gap between what we are expected to do, be it working odd hours, or wading through the gooey center of the pipe, and the reward/compensation given. Factory work is not the greatest eather, but I made good money, and knew when I was coming home.

This is of course, my opinion. It is based on only 8 months or so of being in the plumbing industry, but observing other folks who have been in it a while. 

People doing work for dirt cheap has lowered the bar for the rest of us that want to do it right (my opinion), and that forces people to stay late and install that WH they sold at 3pm, for fear that if they say they will come back and do it tomorrow that the customer will call somebody else.

We should be raising the bar, Plumbing is a Noble Trade, perhaps the most Noble, I think it's time we/you are given the respect you deserve for doing what very very few are willing to do.

If you already are at that point, then that is awesome, I am truly happy for you. I am not at that point yet, that's all."


I think you have an unrealistic idea of a perfect job, there is non..when you own your own business there are just as many issues, but you are compensated much better..you will have a certain amount of give and take any where...you cant have your cake and eat it too...maybe down the road, but you have to put your dues in now and build your future, its not going to be handed to you.like i said before if you want a 9 to 5 job go get one, and the trade off is pay, if you want more money you have to hustle for it and working weekends and evenings will be a must, you have to decide whats more important your time off, or making more money now....if you make it now you can retire or semi retire early and enjoy that time, and you will make your own time as your working..


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## canuck92 (Apr 1, 2016)

As far as hours go. Dont you keep records of pay stubs ? Also you should have a training agreement when you get signed up with a date on it. So its around 1800 hours a year, here the ministry of training colleges and universities sign there area of the training agreement along with you and your employer ( assuming you have somthing similar ) its hard to not have hours accounted for. If your employer isnt following thoughs guidines or not letting you take time off to go to school then they dont care about there employees and id jump ships.


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## CaptainBob (Jan 3, 2011)

ECH, you made all good points in your posts. However, I also agree with the replies from the others. Here are my thoughts-

You mention "living wage" - this is one of those talking points the liberals always like to bring up when arguing the point that people need to be paid more to keep up with the cost of living. "Workers' rights" advocates and others are always saying that pay should be high enough to meet the cost of a basic but decent life for a family. Always in the minimum wage and many other work and pay arguments.

I don't think there should be a "living wage" or a minimum wage. The job may be only worth so much, the employer may be only willing to pay so much, the company's overhead may only allow for so much, the company's customers may only be willing to pay a certain amount. And there is what's called what the job is worth. And, there is what you are worth.

I've worked with very experienced, fast and good master plumbers who were paid very well for what they did, and I with idiots that weren't worth a dollar an hour. Pay should depend on what you can do, not that you are just there and need get paid a certain amount to live.

From what I understand, you have only been working 8 months in the plumbing field? And they want to send you out in a truck? What the heck? *You are only a first year apprentice!!* You are only worth a first year apprentice pay!! I don't care how old you are, how much mechanical ability you have, how much plumbing experience you have doing odds and ends at your former employer or fixing stuff at your own house, *You are only a first year apprentice!!*

As any of the other experienced members of this site will attest, it takes awhile to build up the skill set, expertise, experience, knowledge of the plumbing code, to become an experienced enough plumber to be out in the field on your own. Here in Minnesota you have to work 8000 hours (approx 4 years) under the direction of a journeyman or master to be eligible to take the state licensing exam. That is what is called an apprenticeship. For many, it takes that long to become a properly experienced and practiced plumber. If you worked for me I would not even think of letting you out on your own with out a J-man card. For one thing, it is illegal... you and your company could get into trouble for that...

Another thing, it sounds like you like working regular hours, a steady schedule. Well, service plumbing isn't like that...plumbing makes it's own schedule... One day you may put in 12 hours, the next only 3...and it may be a service call at 9am that took you 2 hours and then the next one is at 4 that only took 1 hour... It seems you already know that. If you don't like that kind of schedule then service plumbing isn't for you. You work when the calls come in, or you "make hay when the sun shines" like my old boss I was an apprentice under used to say.

If you want to stick to plumbing but want to work more regular hours then you need to go to a shop where they work on bigger projects, like new construction, commercial projects, etc. Clock in at 8am work untill 4:30, clock out, come back the next day, same thing until project is done... last project I worked on like that when I was an employee was a large hotel addition... 6 weeks of 10 hour days, started 6:30am off at 5, 6 days a week, made nice $...Big projects may be more like the factory work you are used to...In fact i have often thought of bigger projects are like factory jobs, much gets repetitive...
Going union might be more your style, they like regular hours, pay is always better...

Here in the Minneapolis St.Paul metro area a good service plumber makes $50-$60K a year, I've heard of the bigger shops paying out as much as $80,000 a year or more... unsure what that means in terms of hourly and hours, maybe $30-$40 an hour, 40-50 hours a week? Full benefits, vacation, take home company truck... Depending on your area, no reason you can't make that, once you have the experience and license...


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

ECH said:


> What is the cost of living like in the areas you guys live and work? Cost of homes that plumbers typically live in, etc?
> 
> There is no Journeymans licence in NC that I know of, just the "P1" licence. Which would be considered the Master level I believe.


In NC, the state calls it a Plumbing Technician License. Same thing as a Journeymans.

I realize you have life experience, but how about getting a little more acquainted with plumbing as a whole first?

Getting the technician license first will help you become more familiar with what the state expects from you, it wil also raise your awareness of how plumbing should be installed. It will ultimately help you to truly give the customer what's best for them. (I believe you stated this was important to you and your company) 

After a while, you could then take the business portion of the exam to get your P-1. These are honorable goals in my opinion. If your being encouraged at work to skip all this stuff, well that's your call.


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

CaptainBob said:


> Here in Minnesota you have to work 8000 hours (approx 4 years) under the direction of a journeyman or master to be eligible to take the state licensing exam.
> 
> If you worked for me I would not even think of letting you out on your own with out a J-man card. For one thing, it is illegal... you and your company could get into trouble for that...
> .


Hold on here now. 
You say 8000 hours approx 4 years. That is incorrect. It is 7000 hours and a minimum of 4 years which they make sure of by limiting the hours you can register each year to 1750 hours.

I don't know if you are saying it is illegal for him to be out on his own now as a first year of if you meant that it is illegal to work alone until you become a journeyman. It does sound to me as thought you meant that it's illegal to work alone until you become a journeyman. If this is the case then this too is incorrect as a 4th year apprentice is allowed to work unsupervised.









Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

I am a first year apprentice, that is a true statement. As far as my shop letting me go out on my own, you would have to ask them what made them decide I was ready for that.

When I was asked how I felt about going out on my own, I said to my manager that I would leave that up to him and my journeymen that I worked with, since they are the ones that have the experience to know what I am, and am not capable of.

One of the things that I have heard mentioned from my manager is that I have a very good grasp on what I don't know, and am good at knowing if I'm in over my head. We have a very good group of core guys at the shop and everyone is available for guidance if they needed it.

If I happen to sell something I wasn't completely comfortable I could do safely, I would have another tech help me with the work.

I am certain that only certain types of calls are being sent my way for now anyway.

I totally agree a man should be paid what he is worth, and not just because he is "there". What would it be worth to you to have a plumber in your shop that can fix the jetter when it wont start, or tune up the forklift, because it runs like crap after you paid somebody 2500 bucks to change the distributor but they never checked the points gap or checked timing?

I'm that guy......

I just found the "technicians Licence", thank you for that 89Plumbum. 18 months or 3000 hours to sit for it. I will be working towards that for sure.


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

It is my understanding that I can work under the licence of any person in the shop, in my case it is my owner, and my manager.

That of course puts the liability of my/our work on his licence. So it is his arse he is risking, putting me out there, he therefore must either really want me generating revenue even if it risks his business. 

Or he has enough faith that I won't screw up so badly that he looses his licence/business.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

Back to your original question I think your boss has a right and obligation to himself his family and the corporation to run a buisness that makes a profit. He must make a profit or no one has a job there is no buisness. If he pays to much he will close doors go out of buisness. If he pays too cheap then you guys will walk and he goes out of buisness. You and your boss decide how much you get whether or not you can buy this or that doesent matter its supply and demand If your the best plumber he ever seen and can sell ice to an eskimo well then youll get paid what your worth. You are worth what you can get , but hey there are million other jobs out there dont do anything youy dont want. And AS Dane said make sure you are on track with legal requirements to being a journeyman or master. good luck


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

ECH said:


> I am a first year apprentice, that is a true statement. As far as my shop letting me go out on my own, you would have to ask them what made them decide I was ready for that.
> 
> When I was asked how I felt about going out on my own, I said to my manager that I would leave that up to him and my journeymen that I worked with, since they are the ones that have the experience to know what I am, and am not capable of.
> 
> ...



when I started out I was in your position, but I knew I was working to be in business on my own and did side work all along, I had insurance and contractor license( not a plumbing license at the time, but had a licensed plumber to cover any jobs needing permits) I didnt complain about the lack of pay, if I asked for a raise and the owner/boss said no I looked for another job for more money and usually got one, but also to learn all aspects of plumbing and running a business you have to see how several shops conduct business and each one does something different , so each time I changed jobs it was also a learning experience, and regardless of what you can fix or do it comes down to the owner/boss to determine your worth when working for them, I knew my worth but also had to put the time in the get my license to be a " licensed master plumber". once I got my license I could charge and do as I wanted with my business, and seeing how different shops conducted theirs I took the good from all of them and combined it into what I did, and there still is a learning curve figuring out all there is to know about running a business and doing plumbing, and even now towards the end I still learn a few things as time goes on...
so you may feel your worth a million bucks and in your own business you may very well be, but working for some one they have to make the number work, and if they pay you too much then the rest of the workers will complain why some new guy gets more pay and the issues grow from there..you have to decide what you want in the end, to work for some one or your own business or a combination of the 2..


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

I was listening to the radio and they mentioned higher minimum wage for fast food workers and I remembered one of you saying that pay is roughly determined by gross profit minus overhead and then adjusted for your place in the company. Along with that it was said that if you want a "living wage" than you shouldnt expect to be able to support a family from a fast food job.

Part of that statement, in my opinion, seems to be based on the stereotypical view of fast food jobs being for the uneducated and unskilled worker, like teenagers, who are still in schooling. That fast food work is a "lesser" job. As someone who worked fast food for many years I can tell you why that is wrong for a number of reasons.

A fast food business is still a food business and there is a lot of money to be made in selling food. I wouod argue that fast food is often more profitable than even the most expensive restaraunt. This is almost solely because of volume.

Profit margins on fast food are extremely large. A 32oz soda costs roughly 0.20$. A large fry at mcdonalds costs the same. That cost is when you figure in all other costs. Gas, labor, packaging, it only costs a fifth of a dollar to get that soda in the customers hand.

Skill is needed. Even more so is motivation. Fast food, ironically, is ideally a job for the physically fit. Wether it's working in the extremely hot grill area or running around on the front end filling orders.

If you sit and watch a well trained team during a lunch rush you will see how smoothly they work together. Unfortunately good help is hard to find and corporations dont want to pay what good help is worth so often you do end up with a poor crew and slow service. But when you have good employees it is the best job in the world. I had 4 solid golden years where almost all of my coworkers did their job properly and we all loved it.

The main reason I post this is that if we were to pay these people on the simple formula of gross profit minus overhead and then figure for how much effort they put in they would make a lot more, probably 20$/hr.

Laugh if you want, but next time you work at a fast food place ask about profit margins. Most of the profit is spent paying "franchise fees" to greedy corporations where the executives get paid ungodly amounts of money.



.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> I was listening to the radio and they mentioned higher minimum wage for fast food workers and I remembered one of you saying that pay is roughly determined by gross profit minus overhead and then adjusted for your place in the company. Along with that it was said that if you want a "living wage" than you shouldnt expect to be able to support a family from a fast food job.
> 
> Part of that statement, in my opinion, seems to be based on the stereotypical view of fast food jobs being for the uneducated and unskilled worker, like teenagers, who are still in schooling. That fast food work is a "lesser" job. As someone who worked fast food for many years I can tell you why that is wrong for a number of reasons.
> 
> ...



wrong..the only reason the minimum wage for fast food went up was obummers way to give more money to all the hispanics that work there, might sound racist but its the truth, why not make all places have the same wage?? why because unskilled immigrants legal or not work at fast food and he thought that would help the democraps get more votes.. 

but in the end many fast food places are going to automation and will cut the needed work force by a huge amount and will have to pay skilled workers to keep the machines going...


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> wrong..the only reason the minimum wage for fast food went up was obummers way to give more money to all the hispanics that work there, might sound racist but its the truth, why not make all places have the same wage?? why because unskilled immigrants legal or not work at fast food and he thought that would help the democraps get more votes..
> 
> but in the end many fast food places are going to automation and will cut the needed work force by a huge amount and will have to pay skilled workers to keep the machines going...


I can tell you that where I worked, only one of the two places had hispanic immigrants or the children of hispanic immigrants and even then it was only a handful for a couple years. As of right now neither has hispanics. I didn't want this to be political, I was just defending a job I had against what I feel are very unfair stereotypes.

I think the federal minimum wage is currently fine. I think for my state the minimum wage should be around 11-12$/hr. I also feel it is up to those good employees to fightfor pay raises based on the merits of the good work they do. I find that since the recession many people are reluctant to fight for deserved pay for fear of losing their job.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> I feel really bad for you guys, especially tango. With the exception of town drunks going off a backroad and some heroin problems like everywhere we really don't have much crime.
> 
> 
> .


Thank you for thinking of me! To cheer you up and myself I made a nice paycheck today on new year's eve. I swapped out a well pressure tank and all he has to do now is call an electrician to find the electrical gremlins thats preventing the pump in the well from starting and hack junction box. Maybe a well guy too for the pump in the hole (Another licence for that).


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ECH said:


> It is my understanding that I can work under the licence of any person in the shop, in my case it is my owner, and my manager.
> 
> That of course puts the liability of my/our work on his licence. So it is his arse he is risking, putting me out there, he therefore must either really want me generating revenue even if it risks his business.
> 
> Or he has enough faith that I won't screw up so badly that he looses his licence/business.



Each state or province in Canada have different rules. Up here to work on new construction or anything that earns a revenue, like any commercial building either new or old or renovations you need to go to plumbing school for 1600 hours then you get a 1st year apprentice certificate. Then levels are 1,2,3,4, it takes 8000 hrs total to try for the journeyman's test(It took me 10 years to get all those hours). Pay starts at 18$/hr plus all benefits Everyone earns the same pay grade. Journeyman earns nearly 38$/hr. If you get 8000hrs over here in 4 years then you are probably a 75% yes sir, I spread my butt cheeks for you!
An apprentice cannot be allowed to work alone or face hefty fines and they will check your job sites every month after that.



To do service work in residential and residential renos, or anything that doesn't create a revenue the owner need a contractor licence(5 depending) the employee's don't need $hit, no trade certificate, no knowledge, Nothing!! Be a bus driver for 30 years yesterday and on your own in a van doing plumbing the next day even if you don't know how to glue abs. The owner of the company takes all the blame but they rarely do from what I see and pays you what he wants. He may put you in a van because as long as it doesn't leak he loves profits on cheap wages. I don't think these guys make more than 23$/hr and no benefits what so ever. Bottom of the idiot scale is minimum wage at 12.50$


The construction guys who try out service never last long with all the BS, low pay, late hours, drain cleaning, crappy apartments....etc. I forgot to add, no gloves, no safety equipment. crappy tools, no end cutter on drain machines, walmart tools and walmart grade drain cleaning tools empty vans, no tools etc. You may not get paid overtime unless you want to keep your job!


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

First year, you should not be "on your own" period.

Our area 19 to 22 per hour. First year all the crappy jobs and everything else no one else wants.

Illinois a minimum of 6,000 hours over no more than 6 years. If you don't get your hours and pass your test by then. You are out of the field until you pass you test.

You should only be required to have your hand tools, any power tools, truck supplied by the company.

3rd. & 4th. year 25 to near 30 an hour better schedules, bonuses. Some shops do not pay a commission only paid by the hour.


Run the job as a licensed journeyman 62,000 to 70,000 a year. Still only hand tools. All else by employer.


Now go out on your own, endure the headaches and take the risks, the sky is the limit.

Important question until you go out on your own are benefits a good insurance policy is worth a ton. For instance our deductible is about $350.00 then all else is covered and a family policy runs under $100.00 per month. 2 personal days a year, 8 hours a month sick leave which can accrue. as many years as I have, 4 weeks a year vacation (not deducted from pay) and can roll over 40 hours of that a year.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

CaptainBob said it very well and some other too, you want steady hours, Over here 7 AM to 3:15 PM do new construction and or union work. For that be prepared to go to school for 2 years before you make your first dollar.

I also believe even many 4th year are still shaky when they get their journeyman because there is so much to know and skills. Anything up to 3rd year is a beginner 6000 hrs.


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

skoronesa said:


> I was listening to the radio and they mentioned higher minimum wage for fast food workers and I remembered one of you saying that pay is roughly determined by gross profit minus overhead and then adjusted for your place in the company. Along with that it was said that if you want a "living wage" than you shouldnt expect to be able to support a family from a fast food job.
> 
> Part of that statement, in my opinion, seems to be based on the stereotypical view of fast food jobs being for the uneducated and unskilled worker, like teenagers, who are still in schooling. That fast food work is a "lesser" job. As someone who worked fast food for many years I can tell you why that is wrong for a number of reasons.
> 
> ...


I worked a lot of fast food in my early years coming into the work force. I actually did really well at it and ended up having a shift management position (whooptie doo I know, but it came with a raise, so what?).

I don't really feel that working well together with others is necessarily a specialized skill. Everyone SHOULD be able to do that. Motivation at work should be the promise of continued employment and paychecks. Seems easy to stay motivated at work to me.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> I can tell you that where I worked, only one of the two places had hispanic immigrants or the children of hispanic immigrants and even then it was only a handful for a couple years. As of right now neither has hispanics. I didn't want this to be political, I was just defending a job I had against what I feel are very unfair stereotypes.
> 
> I think the federal minimum wage is currently fine. I think for my state the minimum wage should be around 11-12$/hr. I also feel it is up to those good employees to fightfor pay raises based on the merits of the good work they do. I find that since the recession many people are reluctant to fight for deserved pay for fear of losing their job.
> 
> ...


what area was that? there are areas where they are not concentrated, but most big cities and well populated areas they are many, politics play into every aspect of daily life and why things happen or dont happen..like enforcement of laws of hacks doing plumbing work, as most are of immigrant status legal and illegal..so as much as you dont want to involve politics into certain matters, its almost impossible...


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

What's the penalty in your area for doing work that you're technically not holding a card that allows you to do said work?


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Alan said:


> What's the penalty in your area for doing work that you're technically not holding a card that allows you to do said work?


You should start a new thread to keep it simple to find in a search, It's a good idea and I'll reply when it's opened. I got to find my original post on those figures.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Alan said:


> What's the penalty in your area for doing work that you're technically not holding a card that allows you to do said work?



my area is a freaking abortion of laws ...too big and not enough inspectors....for the most part its all about revenue....if there is permits on the job your grandmother can do the work as long as they are collecting fees and they dont seem to waste time enforcing laws they cant collect $$$ from ..so the illegal whatever gets away with doing whatever because they will just disappear into the wood work never to be seen again, so its a waste to summons them under some fake name..


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> what area was that? there are areas where they are not concentrated, but most big cities and well populated areas they are many, politics play into every aspect of daily life and why things happen or dont happen..like enforcement of laws of hacks doing plumbing work, as most are of immigrant status legal and illegal..so as much as you dont want to involve politics into certain matters, its almost impossible...





I took issue with two things, the first was the mathematical assertion that fast food jobs shouldn't be expected to carry a "living wage" because the money just isn't there. I was making the argument that yes, the money is there it's just that those in charge have done a good job historically of paying a low wage and convincing the public that they shouldn't have to pay more.


The second was the stereotype that fast food jobs aren't real jobs, that it's just something for losers who don't want to have to work a real job. Now this wasn't expressed in these posts but often goes hand in hand with the argument for not raising the pay.


You can choose to make it political, you can make anything political. If you think that wanting a higher wage is political than that's your opinion. If your issue with paying fast food workers more is because they might be immigrants than just realize that the majority of the people in this country who would be helped are citizens and so are their parents.


Is that why you're against raising the minimum wage? Because it might help immigrants?




.


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

My take on the fast food industry and pay, and any industry and pay really, is this:

The wage paid to do a particular job, is simply a product of what others are willing to pay for that job.

My money is traded for the acquisition of something that you can do for me, paid for by money earned by me doing something for somebody else that they paid me for. 

Whether that is making a quick big mac with fries, or fixing my toilet that won't flush, or my car that won't start.

The market determines what a wage is worth, if Mcdonalds was forced to to pay a wage higher than the business model supports, the price of the product must go up, but there will come a point in time where people are unwilling to fork over their money for a number #1, at the price point it takes to sustain that artificial wage.

So, the argument then goes that the evil corporation doesn't need to make so much money and some of that golden parachute that the ceo gets can pay for the little guy to make a better wage. Well, Mcdonalds is a business, and you can't fault a business for aspiring to make money, it's what they do.

But ultimately, whether you are a liberal, and think it's the fat cats that are at fault, or you are a conservative that think the artificial wage that is at fault, your both wrong, it is CONSUMERS that are at fault, they are the ones that keep buying from a place that makes 30% profit, but pays their workers a wage that can't support a family. 

Voting with your dollars is the only recourse, it's the only election process there is in the business world. 

It's why employee owned places like Publix, and Costco thrive, and have some of the happiest employees around.

Ironically, this in one of the things we talked about in Nexstar training:

Mcdonalds and fast food are the number one cause of obesity and diabetes in the USA. What do you suppose the percentage of profit made by Mcdumps last quarter?

FaceBook, number one cause of depression in the USA. What do you suppose the percentage of profit made by FB last quarter?

They are both over 30%, look it up.

Our shop HOPES to make 10% (that's what they tell me anyway) on the plumbing we do for people. Plumbers literally protect the health of the nation, and we fight tooth and nail for 10%.

That is a travesty.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ECH said:


> Plumbers literally protect the health of the nation, and we fight tooth and nail for 10%.
> 
> That is a travesty.



You should say instead "We fight for a$$ and mouth" ...You know what plumbers deal with... :biggrin:


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ECH said:


> My take on the fast food industry and pay, and any industry and pay really, is this:
> 
> The wage paid to do a particular job, is simply a product of what others are willing to pay for that job.
> 
> ...



I largely agree with what you have to say. Supply and demand changes pricing and costs yes, but it is not the only factor. Wages are not solely defined by the demand. Over time certain sectors have refused to give appropriate wage increases and people who need jobs don't have much other choice. You could argue that with unemployment so low that wages should go up but it's mostly not. Employees are stuck where they are because very few corporations are offering higher wages to get more workers.


I DID NOT say corporations are evil. I said that "Unfortunately good help is hard to find and corporations dont want to pay what good help is worth..." 



I did also say "Most of the profit is spent paying "franchise fees" to greedy corporations where the executives get paid ungodly amounts of money."


But refusing to pay more if you don't have to and being greedy does not equal evil, it just equals greedy. Unfortunately for many people fast food is the first link in the chain and they can't threaten to go elsewhere if they don't get paid more. That's the whole point of minimum wage. It's to force companies to pay what a job is worth at the minimum because it is not okay to use people that way. It would be like lording clean drinking water over some ones head in flint to get them to mow your lawn, it isn't right. Yes, many "socialist" or "liberal" countries have guaranteed income but that is not what I want. I want people to be treated fairly when they are in a situation where they can be abused, they deserve protection.


it is partially the fault of the public, they could boycott fast food but since most dont work there they don't care or just don't think about it. The employees could try striking but the public has been convinced that fast food jobs are for losers so they would just call those on strike losers and the workers would face backlash in many other ways.


Most days I am working I can't believe how much I get paid for the job I do considering how much less stress, both physical and mental I have now compared to when I was making less than 15$/hr. I was unloading tractor trailers into the walk in at 16, talk about hard on the back! The grill area would get hotter than an attic in the summer! We probably ran around that store more miles in a day than I now drive. Getting up at 3am to open or staying until 2am to close. And there were a ton of little things to keep track of. 



The worst was when you wanted to get health insurance. Yes they offer it, only if you work more than 32hrs/week. Good luck getting scheduled more than 32! Let's say you are a 40hr/week employee for years, if you suddenly want health insurance, BAM, your hours get cut. Now you don't have employer provided healthcare and you can't even afford your rent/groceries, forget about private health insurance. Then you get hurt/sick, can't work, need disability, within a couple years you're a leech on society.



If this was 50 years ago and we poured joints, wiped lead, and threaded pipe all the time, sure, I could understand. But sweating copper, roughing in pvc, setting fixtures, even drain snaking, to me it is much less stressful than a lunch or dinner rush at mcdonalds. Maybe that's why I am the only one at my shop who HAPPILY snakes drains, I know it could be worse for much less pay.


I think that corporations have done what they do best, cut costs and raise profits. The family run plumbing company I work at now however has the best interests of all it's employees in mind. We all get the same healthcare too.


Capitalism can be great, but just like communism it fails when all the wealth is held for a select few and the masses are left to toil away their existence. That's why you need a bit of socialist agenda to keep things in check. But the media has equated socialism to handouts, and handouts to immigrants and told that the immigrants are coming for your tax dollars so you must vote against the socialist ideas of health insurance for all(Doesn't have to be free) or a higher minimum wage.


If you think everything is political than fine. I am progun, prochoice, I voted ALL REPUBLICAN last ballot! I did that because I don't want to lose my gun rights and I felt the aca was relatively safe. I believe in healthcare for all but I do not think the government should pay for unnecessary treatments, including condoms or birth control. And that guy doesn't need to bake the gays a cake either! I also think that anyone who intentionally skirts the immigration system should be put back on the other side of the fence. But they should be allowed to flee across and then seek refuge, the US already agreed to that. I do think we need a wall, but it should have posts every so often, this way if someone is eluding captors than they can find a border agent to protect them from IMMINENT threats. This does not mean your ex beat you so you walk across 5 countries. Go to the police! If the gangs run the police than go to the town over, or maybe pick up a gun and fight back!! Also, manmade climate change is real. And even if it isn't real, I still don't want to breath that stuff in because newsflash, smoke causes cancer in all states, not just california 





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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ECH said:


> Mcdonalds and fast food are the number one cause of obesity and diabetes in the USA. What do you suppose the percentage of profit made by Mcdumps last quarter?
> 
> FaceBook, number one cause of depression in the USA. What do you suppose the percentage of profit made by FB last quarter?




If I want to be fat and sit on the computer in my free time that is my right. It's called freedom, if you aren't hurting any one else than it should be legal. If I am more of a drain on the health insurance system I would be fine with paying a fat tax to my insurer.


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> And that guy doesn't need to bake the gays a cake either!


Thread winner//end thread........lol


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> If I want to be fat and sit on the computer in my free time that is my right. It's called freedom, if you aren't hurting any one else than it should be legal. If I am more of a drain on the health insurance system I would be fine with paying a fat tax to my insurer.
> 
> 
> .


Was commenting on the value gained from fast food/fb, vs value gained from plumbers, using profits of their respective industry, as a measure of societies assigned value to the product......

By all means, you are entitled to your freedoms, as well you should.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ECH said:


> Was commenting on the value gained from fast food/fb, vs value gained from plumbers, using profits of their respective industry, as a measure of societies assigned value to the product......
> 
> By all means, you are entitled to your freedoms, as well you should.



Freedom isn't free. I am almost up another pant size and will have to buy new work pants 




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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> I took issue with two things, the first was the mathematical assertion that fast food jobs shouldn't be expected to carry a "living wage" because the money just isn't there. I was making the argument that yes, the money is there it's just that those in charge have done a good job historically of paying a low wage and convincing the public that they shouldn't have to pay more.
> 
> 
> The second was the stereotype that fast food jobs aren't real jobs, that it's just something for losers who don't want to have to work a real job. Now this wasn't expressed in these posts but often goes hand in hand with the argument for not raising the pay.
> ...


 you are missing the point and its not your fault, its changing times...when I was in high school working at fast foos places was a pass through job while one was going to college, if not college you worked in the trades and learned and worked up the ladder to a better paying job, since the politicians gave away many of the good jobs by moving them out of this country, fast food has become the main job of many people, but it is now worked mostly by minorities , immigrants and illegals with fake SS numbers, you can cry all you want but thats the truth, if you wish to ignore it thats fine...but the facts remain the same..if you cant better yourself to a better job ans pay thats your fault, with your thinking why not just pay everyone to stay home and not have to work??? oh yeah we do already its called welfare...and who is gona pay for this?? I dont eat fast food so they can raise the prices to pay some food slopper 60k a year and then you will be happy...so you think some burger flipper should make the same as you?
its a multitude of problems , lack of high skilled jobs, lazy people and politicians that have a targeted group to buy votes from.. no easy solution, but raising the pay of menial jobs is not the answer,,,


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> you are missing the point and its not your fault, its changing times...when I was in high school working at fast foos places was a pass through job while one was going to college, if not college you worked in the trades and learned and worked up the ladder to a better paying job, since the politicians gave away many of the good jobs by moving them out of this country, fast food has become the main job of many people, but it is now worked mostly by minorities , immigrants and illegals with fake SS numbers, you can cry all you want but thats the truth, if you wish to ignore it thats fine...but the facts remain the same..if you cant better yourself to a better job ans pay thats your fault, with your thinking why not just pay everyone to stay home and not have to work??? oh yeah we do already its called welfare...and who is gona pay for this?? I dont eat fast food so they can raise the prices to pay some food slopper 60k a year and then you will be happy...so you think some burger flipper should make the same as you?
> its a multitude of problems , lack of high skilled jobs, lazy people and politicians that have a targeted group to buy votes from.. no easy solution, but raising the pay of menial jobs is not the answer,,,


Changing times, multitude of problems and lazy people yes. Lack of skilled work no.

People no longer seem to value skilled work. They often think anyone who works using a skill that is not as high as their own is not actually skilled. Lack of valuing others skill is why so many hire hacks. Not greed but they simply don't value and recognize skill and therefore don't see why they should hire someone at $75 when another guy only cost $50. Many people quite simply seem to think of anyone with less education or lower paid job than them as not being skilled. It makes them feel better about themselves.

It's not a lack of skilled work it's a lack of recognizing the skill and putting value in to it. An employee at a hardware store used to be able to help you with questions about products and ideas on how to go about a problem you encountered. Try and ask an employee at Lowe's, home depot or any place like that and they will at best be able to read the label on the product for you and at worst pretend to know something but totally screw it up. Most places the skilled trades are having a hard time filling the jobs so no lack of skilled jobs but an abundance of lazy people not willing to work hard enough to qualify for the jobs.

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

The Dane said:


> Changing times, multitude of problems and lazy people yes. Lack of skilled work no.
> 
> People no longer seem to value skilled work. They often think anyone who works using a skill that is not as high as their own is not actually skilled. Lack of valuing others skill is why so many hire hacks. Not greed but they simply don't value and recognize skill and therefore don't see why they should hire someone at $75 when another guy only cost $50. Many people quite simply seem to think of anyone with less education or lower paid job than them as not being skilled. It makes them feel better about themselves.
> 
> ...


correct , but that is the sign of changing times, kids in school are being brain washed that they must goto college and not work with there hands as its " dumb peoples work"..I think this is a whole big scam by the government to make an excuse for the immigrants and illegals to enter the country to do that " dumb work"..I have no problem with people legally entering the country and supporting themselves, the other problem is that there arent enough jobs for college educated people, and an education doesnt make you smart or give you the ability to support yourself, as there are plenty of absolute stupid degrees people get..


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

Alan said:


> What's the penalty in your area for doing work that you're technically not holding a card that allows you to do said work?


In Ontario, anyone caught doing plumbing work with out a lic. can be subject to a fine of up to $10k, by the CoT (college of trades).

The CoT kinda got out of hand at one point, going as far as showing up at HD and demanding to see plumbing lic’s from anyone wearing “work shirt/cloths” in the plumbing section. 
I’ve heard they’ve followed people out the HD/Lowe/etc. parking lot, that had lengths of pipe sticking out of car/truck/vans with out plumbing company branding, and once they do to where they were going they would demand to see lic’s/paper work. This was down across the trades board..


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Logtec said:


> In Ontario, anyone caught doing plumbing work with out a lic. can be subject to a fine of up to $10k, by the CoT (college of trades).
> 
> The CoT kinda got out of hand at one point, going as far as showing up at HD and demanding to see plumbing lic’s from anyone wearing “work shirt/cloths” in the plumbing section.
> I’ve heard they’ve followed people out the HD/Lowe/etc. parking lot, that had lengths of pipe sticking out of car/truck/vans with out plumbing company branding, and once they do to where they were going they would demand to see lic’s/paper work. This was down across the trades board..


I could see many lawsuits against the cot by them doing that, while most likley people were doing plumbing, but pvc and copper can be used for non plumbing projects and that would constitute harassment, unless canada turned communist...


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

Logtec said:


> In Ontario, anyone caught doing plumbing work with out a lic. can be subject to a fine of up to $10k, by the CoT (college of trades).
> 
> The CoT kinda got out of hand at one point, going as far as showing up at HD and demanding to see plumbing lic’s from anyone wearing “work shirt/cloths” in the plumbing section.
> I’ve heard they’ve followed people out the HD/Lowe/etc. parking lot, that had lengths of pipe sticking out of car/truck/vans with out plumbing company branding, and once they do to where they were going they would demand to see lic’s/paper work. This was down across the trades board..


That might be going too far. I would love it if the AHJ of all places started actually actively going after the people doing plumbing without a license and also gave them fines in the higher end of the allowed range and not the low end. Then all the hacks would actually start to think it's simply not worth it. Around here if caught plumbing without a license you will normally get a seise and desist order and a fine of around $2000. I think the fine should be higher and they should actively go after those people like if you call them and say you think there is illegal plumbing going on at an address they would go to that place right away to catch them in the act. This is the only way to get rid of hacks.

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Logtec said:


> In Ontario, anyone caught doing plumbing work with out a lic. can be subject to a fine of up to $10k, by the CoT (college of trades).
> 
> The CoT kinda got out of hand at one point, going as far as showing up at HD and demanding to see plumbing lic’s from anyone wearing “work shirt/cloths” in the plumbing section.
> I’ve heard they’ve followed people out the HD/Lowe/etc. parking lot, that had lengths of pipe sticking out of car/truck/vans with out plumbing company branding, and once they do to where they were going they would demand to see lic’s/paper work. This was down across the trades board..


That's very interesting, any leads where we can see an article or something? Was that a long time ago? Right now they suck big time and letting a lot of it slide, You should see the dozens if not hundreds of pages of ads on kijiji for plumbing side jobber plumbers, hacks, handy hack and fake plumbers.



Homeowners are allowed to do their plumbing in Quebec and homeowners are allowed to do their own oil lines, oil tank and oil furnace installation in Ontario so I bet they can do their own plumbing too. The COT probably went over zealous if they checked people at HD, I bet it was snuffed out quickly or it was a hoax?


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Alan didn't make a new thread for fines so Tommy Can you move these posts?

Fines :

5000$ to pretend to have a plumbing licence, for example a kijiji ad saying you do plumbing, a plumber posting he does side jobs etc.
7 500$ fine for a person if you get caught doing plumbing without a licence
15 000$ fine for a company.

All these fines don't include all other fees related to court fees and whatever fees there are.

I previously mentioned the other week a water heater seller has been installing them without a plumbing licence had 3x 15 000$ fines(45 000$). I wish they'd check their records and see they installed them in hundreds of homes.


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

Tango said:


> Logtec said:
> 
> 
> > In Ontario, anyone caught doing plumbing work with out a lic. can be subject to a fine of up to $10k, by the CoT (college of trades).
> ...


In Ontario, HO’s are allowed to do their own plumbing, even permitted work, as long as you pass inspection.
If you advertise “Plumbing” you must have a license to plumb. 
If you’re a handy man and you advertise “plumbing” on your truck/van, they can make you remove all things you’re not lic’ed for.
I’ve seen a few beat up old vans, where it says:
“handyman, we do it all:
painting, 
Tiles,
________, 
drywall,
Caulking,
________, 
fences, 
Trim work,
....”


There is a ton of hacks on Kijiji, even guys who claim they have the answers to the 306a exam.. CoT should be cracking down on them.

There was a fb group against the CoT, along with a bit of an uproar. this was going back maybe 4-5 years, I don’t know what else was online. 

I also got caught up in a investigation where there was unlicensed workers, working in a house. I came in to do some of the bigger plumbing work, but then they had hacks doing smaller stuff. There was a falling out with the homeowner and the contractor when work started to fail inspection. 
All my work was passed, I had detailed invoices to prove what work I had done. The city inspector said, there was clear evidence that someone inexperienced had done the other work, judging by the quality of workmanship alone. I was questioned by the CoT and filled out a statement to help the HO, who was taking the contractor to court. 
In the end, I heard thru the grapevine this contractor had to pay some heavy fines, and they also started looking into previous jobs/work he did..


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Logtec said:


> In Ontario, HO’s are allowed to do their own plumbing, even permitted work, as long as you pass inspection.
> If you advertise “Plumbing” you must have a license to plumb.
> If you’re a handy man and you advertise “plumbing” on your truck/van, they can make you remove all things you’re not lic’ed for.
> I’ve seen a few beat up old vans, where it says:
> ...


I think they aren't too smart at least when I called them to see if my contractor licence was good in Ontario, they gave me the runaround I needed this and that and to pay this and that but I stopped them cold. I told the woman to look on page 2 of their website and it clearly stated the Quebec -Ontario agreement. I had to literally explain their own literature and show them where. Anyway that was the last time I talked to them and I do a few jobs there.

I decided to remove my ad in Ontario I had too many accents calling and really cheap price shoppers, I did lose about 15 jobs in the year because of that but a lot less aggravation. I still got a spy woman from a company asking my rates and she fell off her chair, I wonder how low they were!


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

As of this morning I have accumulated 1304 verified hrs towards the 3000 needed to sit for the "technicians Licence" (journeyman), or the 4000 for P1 (master) licence.

And that's after about 8 months, well on schedule to get the hours before the 18 month minimum.

Thanks for all the help and advice fellas.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

We have very different meanings to the label "Master Plumber". Looks like 3000 hrs you are a journeyman? For us that would be a 2nd year apprentice.

4000hrs to be a master? That would be the beginning of a 3rd year apprentice and you'd need another 4000 to reach journeyman! Oh boy! So technically if I were to move to your area would I be considered a grand wizard master and be able to bend pipe with my will? :wink:

Master plumber around here is you own a contractor licence. In a couple of years the master exam will change and weed out some who never did plumbing before with more in depth questions with real life situations that you won't find in text books.


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

Tango said:


> We have very different meanings to the label "Master Plumber". Looks like 3000 hrs you are a journeyman? For us that would be a 2nd year apprentice.
> 
> 4000hrs to be a master? That would be the beginning of a 3rd year apprentice and you'd need another 4000 to reach journeyman! Oh boy! So technically if I were to move to your area would I be considered a grand wizard master and be able to bend pipe with my will? <img src="http://www.plumbingzone.com/images/smilies/wink.png" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" class="inlineimg" />
> 
> Master plumber around here is you own a contractor licence. In a couple of years the master exam will change and weed out some who never did plumbing before with more in depth questions with real life situations that you won't find in text books.


In Ontario, 
the CoT sends you a “purple wizard hat”, once you get your “grand wizard, plumbing lic.”


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## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

ECH said:


> As of this morning I have accumulated 1304 verified hrs towards the 3000 needed to sit for the "technicians Licence" (journeyman), or the 4000 for P1 (master) licence.
> 
> And that's after about 8 months, well on schedule to get the hours before the 18 month minimum.
> 
> Thanks for all the help and advice fellas.


Wow.
What tango said..

This doesn’t seem right.

In Ontario,You need 9000hrs(720 of those hours are in class studies)
to complete your plumbing apprenticeship, at this point you're qualified to write the 306a plumbing exam, which when passes you get your “Plumber JP” or “plumbing journey persons” lic.

As for the “Toronto Master Plumber lic”, it’s a great qualification/credential to hold, but it’s only good in the city of Toronto. By driving 10k north of the city, you’re in the township of Markham and they do-not recognize me/anyone as a Master, you’re just a “Plumber”.
they also have a few different rules: Like using different colours of PVC DWV (green/white) for sani/storm.
To the tune of an inspector gave my buddy the option to rip out all his drains and switch them to the right colour pipe, or he could paint the white pipe green(or Vica versa).


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## canuck92 (Apr 1, 2016)

Logtec said:


> ECH said:
> 
> 
> > As of this morning I have accumulated 1304 verified hrs towards the 3000 needed to sit for the "technicians Licence" (journeyman), or the 4000 for P1 (master) licence.
> ...


I think i had around 4,000 hours befour i was even signed up. I think are province " had" some of the strictest apprenticeship regulation thati know of. There making easier now with the 1:1 ratio.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Tango said:


> We have very different meanings to the label "Master Plumber". Looks like 3000 hrs you are a journeyman? For us that would be a 2nd year apprentice.
> 
> 4000hrs to be a master? That would be the beginning of a 3rd year apprentice and you'd need another 4000 to reach journeyman! Oh boy! So technically if I were to move to your area would I be considered a grand wizard master and be able to bend pipe with my will? :wink:
> 
> Master plumber around here is you own a contractor licence. In a couple of years the master exam will change and weed out some who never did plumbing before with more in depth questions with real life situations that you won't find in text books.


It is kind of crazy. I'm not sure how the state of NC came up with a time frame like this. I believe when I sat for journeyman in Florida in 97', you needed 5 years, and 6 for masters. 

I will say, I've taken the masters in Fl, NC and believe it or not, the equivalent of the masters in QC through the CCQ and hands down, the NC test was the hardest.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

89plumbum said:


> It is kind of crazy. I'm not sure how the state of NC came up with a time frame like this. I believe when I sat for journeyman in Florida in 97', you needed 5 years, and 6 for masters.
> 
> I will say, I've taken the masters in Fl, NC and believe it or not, the equivalent of the masters in QC through the CCQ and hands down, the NC test was the hardest.


Did you mean the journeyman CCQ exam in Quebec (8000 hours)? The master's exam is the contractor exam which is different and way harder with civil law questions too and some in the codebook. Also question about pricing and estimates. If you aren't a contractor it would be hard to know these specific answers.


How do you know the Quebec journeyman exam have you tried it? My plumbing school teacher was one of the men who made up the exam in around 2000's.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Tango said:


> Did you mean the journeyman CCQ exam in Quebec (8000 hours)? The master's exam is the contractor exam which is different and way harder with civil law questions too and some in the codebook. Also question about pricing and estimates. If you aren't a contractor it would be hard to know these specific answers.
> 
> 
> How do you know the Quebec journeyman exam have you tried it? My plumbing school teacher was one of the men who made up the exam in around 2000's.


You might be right about that. I lived in Montreal from 98'- 2000'.

Went through all the rigmarole to be legal to do plumbing there. Work was very slow at that time and it just did not pan out for me. My wife who is from Montreal wanted to move back to the states. 

I did make one contribution while I was there. The lady from the CCQ thanked me for pushing her to complete the exam application in English. She said up to that point, it was never available. Now, we try to visit once a year as her parents still live in the area.


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

I work with a lot of guys from up north, and the joke is that the further south you go, the easier it is to be a plumber.

The test is open book, but is psychologically designed to trip you up, or so I hear. Guys that were masters in New York that work with, and manage my shop have had trouble passing due to the confusing nature of the questions.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

ECH said:


> I work with a lot of guys from up north, and the joke is that the further south you go, the easier it is to be a plumber.
> 
> The test is open book, but is psychologically designed to trip you up, or so I hear. Guys that were masters in New York that work with, and manage my shop have had trouble passing due to the confusing nature of the questions.


I found that studying helps with this.:vs_laugh:

Seriously, some guys crack me up. We have a younger guy that was scheduled to take the exam. I'm not knocking his ambition, but, he called me to ask if he could borrow my books which was fine. I asked when his test was and he said in 2- weeks! SMH. I asked how it went about a month later and he just said "I don't want to talk about it, but I need to keep your books for a little while longer".


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

89plumbum said:


> I found that studying helps with this.:vs_laugh:
> 
> Seriously, some guys crack me up. We have a younger guy that was scheduled to take the exam. I'm not knocking his ambition, but, he called me to ask if he could borrow my books which was fine. I asked when his test was and he said in 2- weeks! SMH. I asked how it went about a month later and he just said "I don't want to talk about it, but I need to keep your books for a little while longer".


My Oregon JP test was open book. 4 hours, can't remember how many questions.

There are enough questions though that if you don't already either know the answer or know where to find them in the book, you are going to end up running out of time. I finished mine in about half the time and that was with going through the test and double checking answers one more time.

I was a little nervous about passing the CA test because it was closed book and it had been quite a while since I finished the apprenticeship, but I had no issues there either.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Alan said:


> My Oregon JP test was open book. 4 hours, can't remember how many questions.
> 
> There are enough questions though that if you don't already either know the answer or know where to find them in the book, you are going to end up running out of time. I finished mine in about half the time and that was with going through the test and double checking answers one more time.
> 
> I was a little nervous about passing the CA test because it was closed book and it had been quite a while since I finished the apprenticeship, but I had no issues there either.


How long was the CA test?


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## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

89plumbum said:


> How long was the CA test?


I had to take two separate ones (Law and Trade), I think they were a little more than 100 questions each. Computer input for answers and when you submit your answers, they give you an instant pass/fail on the screen.

3.5 hours for each exam. There's no way any test I ever take will require me to sit in a room all day long. Good lord.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ECH said:


> I work with a lot of guys from up north, and the joke is that the further south you go, the easier it is to be a plumber.
> 
> The test is open book, but is psychologically designed to trip you up, or so I hear. Guys that were masters in New York that work with, and manage my shop have had trouble passing due to the confusing nature of the questions.


My journeyman exam was tricky, all the wrong answers made sense. You divided, added or subtracted instead of multiplying and you had the answer there to fool you.

Then you had the question do you use a little flux to solder or a lot? I know 98% of plumbers got that wrong! I got it right though.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

89plumbum said:


> I found that studying helps with this.:vs_laugh:
> 
> Seriously, some guys crack me up. We have a younger guy that was scheduled to take the exam. I'm not knocking his ambition, but, he called me to ask if he could borrow my books which was fine. I asked when his test was and he said in 2- weeks! SMH. I asked how it went about a month later and he just said "I don't want to talk about it, but I need to keep your books for a little while longer".


My journeyman exam was in the afternoon so I studied only that morning. I didn't get a super grade but I passed nevertheless.

I did study for a full 2-3 month and about 4 hours each day for a month for my masters/contractor, I wasn't going to fail that one!


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## gap1927 (Feb 25, 2014)

You should be at min $100,000 yearly if you can hustle and do good work.

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk


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## acesfour (Apr 22, 2014)

I don't know if you are asking for yourself or for your employees. If it is for your employees, then paying a salary where they cannot afford housing is not going to keep an employee around so the answer is you need to find a way to pay a living wage. If you are asking for yourself then you need to find a new plumbing job that pays enough to live off of or you should change careers. I pay all my employees a living wage and I think you can too.

Tracy
Aces Four Construction of Seattle


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## canuck92 (Apr 1, 2016)

The branches on a compressed air system are taken off.

The bottom
The top
The side
On a 45

A 1.5 L/s sump pump discharges into a branch. What is the f.u rating ?

47.6
48.4
46.5
50

The branches on a compressed air system are taken off.

The bottom
The top
The side
On a 45

A 1.5 L/s sump pump discharges into a branch. What is the f.u rating ?

47.6
48.4
46.5
50

What valve would you use on a 4" stainless steel pipe full of peanut butter

Needle valve
Diaphram valve
Globe valve
Gate valve

275 f.u is how many liters

275L
2360L
2503L
3360L

6 equally spaced dual vented lavs are to be installed the counter is 5334 mm long and each fixture is 1.5 ft wide the end of the counter between the first and last fixture is half the space between the fixtures. What is the center to center of the vents ?


Some questions that was on mine.


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

gap1927 said:


> You should be at min $100,000 yearly if you can hustle and do good work.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk


There is no one in my shop, (about 20 guys between residential and commercial) making that much.......



acesfour said:


> I don't know if you are asking for yourself or for your employees. If it is for your employees, then paying a salary where they cannot afford housing is not going to keep an employee around so the answer is you need to find a way to pay a living wage. If you are asking for yourself then you need to find a new plumbing job that pays enough to live off of or you should change careers. I pay all my employees a living wage and I think you can too.
> 
> Tracy
> Aces Four Construction of Seattle


I would say, that plumbers and their families here are getting paid well enough to live comfortably (one income family), 45min to an hour away from the areas that they service, but the public schools are garbage. No way could a plumber afford to live in the areas with better public schools around here on just his salary.

Only reason I am in a "good" public school area is because my wife makes very good money, and combined with what I make. There are affordable areas and decent pockets of good neighborhoods that are close by to our service area, but the public schools are terrible. And when I say affordable, I mean, between me and my wife working, we can afford to buy there, but again, the public schools are terrible.

There is a great Charter School system (private level education, no tuition) all over NC, but no transportation is provided, so one parent would have to stay home. Only way to afford to have a parent stay home is if we went out in the sticks, which for now isn't really desirable yet.

I would love it, but long story short, my wife could be in durham for 2 years, then raleigh, then chapel hill, so to settle outside of one of those triangle cities, only to have her office change in 2 years, could create a 2hr each way commute for her.

So for now we are renting, in the middle of all three cities (where everybody wants to be), and we come full circle to not making enough to (buy) live in this area. 

This area is a trip, so many people are coming here so fast, and there is so much building/construction going on, that the infrastructure is stressed to the max.

But they just keep putting developments up, everywhere you look:

"Model homes now open, from the 400s"

From the 500s, from the 800s. And on and on.

House prices are absolutely insane right now here. Problem is, there is enough professionals making that much money, that they are selling like hotcakes. As soon as a house in a development is finished, somebody is moving in.

The tradesman doesn't stand a chance.


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## jeffreyplumber (Dec 7, 2009)

ECM NC sounds like a fun place to live havent been there since a teenager visiting . Sucks though I guess trying to make a living. Im in CA for most my life . no one makes 100k? how much are they making?


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## emeraldplumbing (Jan 28, 2019)

If you are in the DC market we are seriously looking for help.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. https://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/.

The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession)

Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field.

This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is.

We look forward to your valuable input.


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