# Bugs in the Rinnai



## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Since the topic of tankless maintenance is raging on, I thought I throw these up.

These are two rinnai's in a commercial app. The first pic is of the venting outside. Originally the 45 and short piece was not on the right vent. This caused the unit on the left to suck in exhaust and shut down. The 45 and short piece was the original installer's solution.

Also notice the proximity to the light. What does a light attract at night?

Next two pics are the combustion chamber- notice the bugs. It's hard to see in the pic, but the burner was plugged. Unit was showing a error '10'.

IMO, either the vents or the light needs to be moved.


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## LEAD INGOT (Jul 15, 2009)

Well the original installer isn't certified by Rinnai, or is illiterate. If they actuall read the concentric vent schedule, he would of known that the vents were too close together, and that the vent kits are NOT UV rated. Even the one that doesn't have the 45 on it is sticking out too far. Putting it next to that light was not the smartest thing he could have done. Looks like an electrician, an a bricklayer will be needed to fix that F' up.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Installation of these is not difficult, they just require a little fore thought. clean air make up right next to a wall pack is just funny to me. If you paint the PVC with decent paint, it will become UV rated...a simple fix and I do it all the time.

The air inlet needs to be moved, the exhaust is fine. The bigger issue is the damage that is already done to that burner assembly. I just did a fix to one and it was a pain in the arse....even for me to do. $600 dollar fix to flush out the burner assembly / chamber. If some of the smaller bugs made it through and got caught up in the heat exchanger I doubt it will cause an issue. When they turn to ash, they no longer absorb heat and cook the exchanger/heat sinks. Careful with that air compressor Colgar, those fins very easilly bend.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

and why is there so much rage about maintance on these units. I have written pages and pages of ALL aspects of this. It's not difficult.....


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Tankless said:


> and why is there so much rage about maintance on these units. I have written pages and pages of ALL aspects of this. It's not difficult.....


 
Because the front end sales of these promise the world with charts and graphs, graphs and charts,


then some more charts and graphs to say it is the mass destroyer of the tank water heater



*Fo-ev-ah*​ 
There are many I have on facebook that tout the tankless, and they are trying to make money after the sale as well. "1/32" of an inch of calcium sediment can rob your tankless unit as much as 30%!"​ 

But those who are installing these regularly, like yourself even in your statements are dismissing these facts.​ 

There's no doubt you yourself know your product. It's evident and you're an excellent troubleshooter. You can just tell. You've got it good 
You never see the colds we have up here in the northern regions. "I've been putting these in for years and never cleaned one" it's a disservice to the consumer, knowing this is even recommended by the mfg of the product. How could it not be? They want you taking care of that unit as long as it is in warranty, and after that they wouldn't care if it failed daily. A new sale would be on the way, someone would get the benefit.​ 
I'm putting in a tankless next week, right up the road from my house. Guy is spending $990.00 for the unit.​ 

I went over some very important factoids and he glossed over them completely. All he knows is there is a tank sitting full of water costing him money. << Advertising led him to that mindset, nothing else.​ 
Those new energy guide regulations made a huge difference on those tanks in regards to temperature loss.​ 
In the next few years, the only thing I'm physically going to be able to install is a tankless.  So be it.​ 

I could worship the knowledge base of tankless water heaters and install tons of them if I wanted to. But in my specific area, it comes with conditions, and I feel compelled to give up that info as I myself am a consumer, and I wouldn't want to be led astray by a service provider, and knowing the full picture starts with the voice of a top rated plumber in the area stating just that.​ 

I'm not special, I just want to hold the design that got me where I'm at today.​


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Being cold climate is only a designing factor, Michigan, New York & Minnesota lead the states in Tankless sales and it's colder there than Kentucky.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

I don't know about 1/32 of calcium carbonate scale will rob 30% of....X from a heater is true. Maybe it is. I'm not concerned with that crap. You have however brought up a few things that could be a good topic fopr discussion, such as manufacturers intentions with their recommendations and warranty policies.

It should be said that these companies....in this market (U.S.) are practically brand new. They don't have the experience or track record to design something that will last the 20+ years they claim. I personally think only the best designs with the correct installation and more importantly the treatment of the water being given to the unit will be the deciding factor in how long these things last. This statement is based on my real world facts, from what I have personally seen.

They are in business for one reason and one reason only, to make money. If you think these guys love the enviornment SO much why aren't they selling them from an NPO (non-profit) and reinvesting into even better design? This is nothing new, just look at the car industry to get a clue where we are headed in the next 20 years.

With all that said, it is up to the integrity of the installer / salesman on what should be said to a prospective client. If you want to promise the world like the manufactures` do, knock yourself out. Me personally, I convert my clients into jouneymen experts on the topic. I let them sell my next 2 or 3 units. My plumbing abilities are good...not master perfect but damn good. Good enough to do the job correctly without wasting my clients money all the while being compeditive.

And even I will sometimes not push for a tankless unit. Be it cost factor - installation issues - available water issues.....mind you this is with respect to average home owners. I can put them in anywhere on any system....but just because I can, doesn't make it a good idea.

With respect to maintaince.....Once a year on a zero to 3 grains of hardness is over the top. Basically, if they have a softener I go every two years. Without a softener, you gotta know the hardness to make the judgement call.....and it IS a judgement call. In 8 years after installation, a major failure comes about...who's going to take responsibility? The manufacturer? Don't hold your breath. The homeowner will have to. And it won't pay to repair the damn thing, so now he needs another $1000 unit plus some extra for the installation.....has the venting tech. changed? How about gas requirements? Are the Isolation valves still performing like they should? He could be in for a $2000 bill because the service aspect of the job was not maintained. Again, it's up to your own integrity to make the home owner aware of these things. 

Wouldn't you want a fair shake if you were in their shoes? I said this years ago on here......maybe even on CT long before this site came up.....I treat my clients like F-ing gold. I'll walk their dog, wash their car, take care of the ugly wife.....I don't care. I'll do whatever I need to do to make sure my client is more than happy with me. I don't ever want my clients to be tempted with calling someone else. Now that said, I know I cannot please everyone. I also refuse to work for certain types of people. They are not the calibur of human being that I am, therefore I want nothing to do with them. I'm usually right in my thinking. It keeps my invoices paid and my blood pressure manageable. Service calls and small silly jobs do not get this same treatment. Just tankless and other major work.

I got two things in this world, my balls and my word. I don't break either of them for anyone. -not me








DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Because the front end sales of these promise the world with charts and graphs, graphs and charts,
> 
> 
> then some more charts and graphs to say it is the mass destroyer of the tank water heater
> ...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Tankless said:


> ...I got two things in this world, my balls and my word. I don't break either of them for anyone. -not me...


Isn't that THREE things? 

PS...Good post!


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

ZL700 said:


> Being cold climate is only a designing factor, Michigan, New York & Minnesota lead the states in Tankless sales and it's colder there than Kentucky.


 
That's called trending, and how does that discount the statements I make. 

Every
single
customer

that wants a tankless, is MOST times an employee of a company, someone who earns a wage and those tax credits/rebates are gold to them....because basically when you're not a business owner, you don't have opportunities to get 30% deduction, which in some cases is sizeable.

So you have the government being a salesman, basically. 

But going from a 40,000 burner to 199,000 btu flame thrower just because you want 21 square feet in a closet, or the horrible so wasteful tank of water that operates just like your fridge in opposite? 





Tankless said:


> I don't know about 1/32 of calcium carbonate scale will rob 30% of....X from a heater is true. Maybe it is. *Your competition spouts this to gain sales, and those $75 kits with the waterbed pumps* I'm not concerned with that crap. *See below* You have however brought up a few things that could be a good topic fopr discussion, such as manufacturers intentions with their recommendations and warranty policies.
> 
> It should be said that these companies....in this market (U.S.) are practically brand new. They don't have the experience or track record to design something that will last the 20+ years they claim. I personally think only the best designs with the correct installation and more importantly the treatment of the water being given to the unit will be the deciding factor in how long these things last. This statement is based on my real world facts, from what I have personally seen.
> 
> ...


 
Absolutely, but why is it that I get so many plumbers following the "I don't give a crap" attitude of the 'after the sale' mentality. You're out west, I thought florida. California is known for tap water being the best there is, better than bottled water.



Every time I've seen and witnessed a heated metal surface that was used in conjunction with heating water, it is notorious for baking the minerals onto the metal surface opposite of the flame side. 

Would you agree? 


I can't even count how many insta hot dispensors I've removed that had calcium/mineral hardness make the unit weigh twice as much as it was initially installed. 



If I was in constant warm weather with great water quality, could outside install these units...I'd be preaching their design completely. 


This tankless install this week was my method of not letting this customer know all the facts. He's headstrong. I've done work for him before. I could tell him the tankless unit will cause forest fires in montana...he don't care. 

There are no guys like you in my area...that can install and troubleshoot, and repair without 1-800 numbers, brown boxes brought to the door by guys in brown shorts. It's non-existent. 

California is always the starting point for all products, whether they are good bad or indifferent. It might work flawlessly there, but it comes with condition here. 


Ever notice that I don't get vocal about just "anything" ? 

I speak my mind when I see any product that comes to the industry that has considerations, without plumbers preaching like salesmen to get what you are driving at; making money. 

I can relate to the "I don't give a crap" mindset when I've tried to get my customers to adhere to water heater drainings after the initial install.

They cannot see the results, they expect that service for less than the average service call and after a couple years?


They look at how many years they got out of the last tank heater without doing a damn thing. Why should they pay me $$$ a visit over the life of that tank, knowing that the last one went pretty far without? 

You've got plumbers telling customers only one side of the coin on tankless, and if everything is touted as such high efficiency against the tank,


why is it that mfg. has it inscribed into their warranty guidelines that you must clean the unit?


I've been removing tank heaters that are 70 pounds heavier than initially installed, because of sediment at times. 

I cannot believe that every malfunctioning tankless heater is guaranteed installer error. No freaking way. Might have a lot to do with many, but there's got to be accountability back to those units and how they must be maintained.

Less fudge room for a tankless over tank. Has to be. 

15 years from now? Tankless will have a strong presence in the water heating industry. Can't deny that. 

It will soar when new construction bumps up. But like everything, the warning label is last to be read on a consumer purchase. I just think what some plumbers are doing in high roading products serves as a let down when they find out all the variables to consider.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Well said, Dunbar. There are A LOT of guys that don't give a crap out here too. That's what I meant about having real integrity. I have been thinking more seriously about moving out of state....because aside from the women and the weather...CA sucks. I would love the challenge of creating a system that's worth someones hard earned money in a different state. I don't really know what to do with 40 degree water on a 200kbtu unit, but I am smart enough to figure something out. Geo-thermal comes to mind!!!

Here's my track record.....about 400 installations of various Noritz brand units and not one was DOA. As a service tech for them...maybe 60 calls over the past 3-4 years I have seen two that were bad. Mother board was the issue both times and the follow up was a glitch in the software that was easily correctable. All the other issues I have seen is either installer error or no servicing at all. I can bring these units back from the dead however there is always damage that I cannot fix unless I rebuild the entire thing...not a cost effective manor.

What I would like to know....is what state has the worst non-well water. That just might be my next home!


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

For consideration:

- 1/32" scale or not. If it was losing 30% heat transfer it would lock out with a (16?) from high limit. Descale it and ,voila! Problem fixed.

- FL has pretty hard water and almost nobody flushes them. 6 + years after install still working like a champ. Do the tank manufacturers not recommend flushing at least once per year and changing anode rids? Does anybody actually do it? For the record I think we should offer it as a service instead of just saying "you should do this..." Do you explain this BEFORE hand with a tank heater replacement opportunity? Probably not. So why the fuss with the same issue for tankless?

- Oh goodness. 40 degree inlet temp. Whatever shall we do? "size it properly" for starters.

- Gosh darn it. We have hard water (16-18 range on city water in FL). Point of use descaler or whole house softener would be a pretty easy fix,would it not. 

- OMG! A 200k btu burner.  Let's see... What is a btu? Something about the amount of energy it takes to heat a pound of water one degree... The physics do not change here. A one-size-fits-all-load-demands 38k with a 70% transfer efficiency for x minutes? Or whatever the load demands ( 16k to 199k) AS NEEDED with a 93% transfer efficiency. There is no assumption or fuzzy math in that equation. Period.

- So, initial costs aside, comparing apples to apples (performance & quality) there is no contest when you properly size a unit.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Dunbar, 

Are you absolutely certain it is 12-16 grain and not ppm? There is a huge difference. I thought the same thing when I first started looking into it. We have close to the same in ppm on city water. I don't think you could even drink water at 16 grain.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Tankless said:


> Installation of these is not difficult, they just require a little fore thought. clean air make up right next to a wall pack is just funny to me. If you paint the PVC with decent paint, it will become UV rated...a simple fix and I do it all the time.
> 
> The air inlet needs to be moved, the exhaust is fine. The bigger issue is the damage that is already done to that burner assembly. I just did a fix to one and it was a pain in the arse....even for me to do. $600 dollar fix to flush out the burner assembly / chamber. If some of the smaller bugs made it through and got caught up in the heat exchanger I doubt it will cause an issue. When they turn to ash, they no longer absorb heat and cook the exchanger/heat sinks. Careful with that air compressor Colgar, those fins very easilly bend.


I'm having trouble following along this morning. what should I be concerned about- damamge to the burner assy, heat exchanger or both?

No compressed air. A soft bristle brush and a shop vac.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*Move to indiana*



ckoch407 said:


> Dunbar,
> 
> Are you absolutely certain it is 12-16 grain and not ppm? There is a huge difference. I thought the same thing when I first started looking into it. We have close to the same in ppm on city water. I don't think you could even drink water at 16 grain.


Indianpolis city water is around 21 parts hard. 
their are areas on the south west side over 25 parts hard... 
and the Coffe taste great in the morning....




We have taken out 4 year old electric water heaters that were over knee deep in lime and sediment..... cant change the elements cause you need a jack hammer to break up the 
clunks of lime in the unit... 


you need a tommy lift to get them in the truck.....
but on the bright side you get more money from the junk
yard for the extra dead weight.

on average, I feel that the consumer is an idiot and could 
care less to drain their heaters every few months...
they rarely if ever put salt in their water softeners on a regular basis....


I seriously doubt that they are gonna de-lime their tankless heaters..


tankless, what is wrong with the chicks in california???..


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

25 parts is pretty hard. It's still only 1.5 grains though. 

Man it sounds like these people are their own worst enemy. Must be a nice to have those conditions: ignorant person who is willing to pay + 25 ppm hardness = tons of replacements. One premature wh replacement would probably cover the investment of a quality softener. What a shame.:laughing:




Master Mark said:


> Indianpolis city water is around 21 parts hard.
> their are areas on the south west side over 25 parts hard...
> and the Coffe taste great in the morning....
> 
> ...


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*25 parts ahrd*

actually the heaters with water softeners usually
go out more under warranty than the ones getting
the direct lime and hardness....

gas heaters can last 15 years and be knocking and bubbling 
lime and sediment ...sounds like hell...

the same heater with a softener can go out in 4 years 
all the time , probably due to the amount of soduim needed to soften the water eating away at the heaters....:laughing:


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> actually the heaters with water softeners usually
> go out more under warranty than the ones getting
> the direct lime and hardness....
> 
> ...


Sodium does not soften the water it is chlorides that attach to the resin and exchange with the hardness particles and is replaced during the recharging process using sodium chloride. 

A properly operating softener only adds a trace of sodium. 

While you do solve one issue another is created slightly as the soft water is more active looking for minerals to absorb.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

You seem to know it all based off your smart ass remarks....I guess you can be the guru from now on.




ckoch407 said:


> For consideration:
> 
> - 1/32" scale or not. If it was losing 30% heat transfer it would lock out with a (16?) from high limit. Descale it and ,voila! Problem fixed.
> 
> ...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ckoch407 said:


> - Oh goodness. 40 degree inlet temp. Whatever shall we do? "size it properly" for starters.


Actually it is more like where to find the customer with deep pockets that doesn't mind paying for a ganged install...:whistling2:

They are out there...

Just not enough of them...:laughing:


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

*Don't take it personal*



Tankless said:


> You seem to know it all based off your smart ass remarks....I guess you can be the guru from now on.



I'll be the first to admit that I'm no guru and I don't know everything. (I've only got a fraction of tankless installs compared to you.) The smartazz part is just to return the favor of the smartazz tankless bashers. It's all in good nature so I hope nobody is offended. And if I am incorrect on anything somebody please correct me.


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