# Waterworks toilet flapper



## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

so I'm on a service call to replace worn diverter on a kitchen faucet and while I am there the HO asks if I can take a look at his toilet, Waterworks . says that the thing is running off n on. I pull the tank lid and the fill valve is working fine, water level is fine. so, I replace the flapper (fluid master red) and the first thing I notice is that it wants to stay open for too long and gives me a double flush. Well thats all had with me at the time so I adjusted the water level to get a single flush. Thought I was good to go and did.

Next day get a call about how its still doing it:furious:, but not as often. Go back exchange the fluid master for a Black Korky which looks pretty darn close to the original. Flush it a couple of times, seems ok wait around and shoot the sh#t with the HO. All is good. NOT! Get a call today same deal.

So have any of you dealt with Waterworks toilets? I have installed some of the stuff back before i went on my own. But never had to do any service on the stuff. I looked on there web site to see if I could get the flapper that they spec, but couldn't even get the product pages to open and there is nobody close by to deal with that is even listed on their web site.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Know nothing about that brand toilet...but I would take a few flappers to try and I would lower the water level in the tank some until it all worked with whatever flapper I decided was best.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Sounds like you are putting a 3.5 gpf flapper in a 1.6 GPF toilet.

I would not ever lower the water level in the tank to prevent a double flush.
If you do you are setting the toilet up for a weak flush it relies on the tank water level being higher to increase the flow rate to the bowl.

Get the right 1.6 Flapper and install it!


----------



## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

If the fill valve is fine, and you already replaced the flapper, and it's still running off and on, you need a new flush valve.:thumbsup:


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Sounds like you are putting a 3.5 gpf flapper in a 1.6 GPF toilet.
> 
> I would not ever lower the water level in the tank to prevent a double flush.
> If you do you are setting the toilet up for a weak flush it relies on the tank water level being higher to increase the flow rate to the bowl.
> ...


I've seen toilets with the water level line very low and a short flush valve.......what say you?


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

I say, chances are that those toilets don't flush correctly......^^^^^


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Yeah I have only repaired a few so I really dont know for sure how they work just yet.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I have a question.....Has anyone here ever replaced a brass flushvalve IN a toilet tank with a plastic flushvalve? I'm still learning...bear with me.


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Yes......


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

TM is thinking the overflow on the plastic flush valve is too short...:laughing:


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

I've even installed a brass FV where a plastic one was..........Not sure I know where you're going, so I'm giving you some room.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Redwood said:


> TM is thinking the overflow on the plastic flush valve is too short...:laughing:


I doubt thats what this guys problem is......I asked just a general question. I have some plastic flushvalves that are as tall as the brass ones...so the height is not what I'm after. Its the outlet diameter were the flapper sits in the valve. Ever compare the two?


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Obviously if w/c is STILL running after changing flapper, then probably water is leaking past the flush valve gasket. You have to drop dye in tank after flapper falls and closes, then wait 15 or 20 minutes. If colored dye appears in bowl, then change flush valve.


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

I highly doubt the Douglas flushvalve is bad, I say it has to do with how the flapper is seating.


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Choctaw said:


> I highly doubt the Douglas flushvalve is bad, I say it has to do with how the flapper is seating.


 
I've seen seats on flush vavles roughed-up and not allow flapper to seal properly or it's flush valve gasket allowing water to leak into bowl.


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> I've seen seats on flush vavles roughed-up and not allow flapper to seal properly or it's flush valve gasket allowing water to leak into bowl.


I know all that Tommy, but just re-read his original post and you'll see what I'm saying.


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

The double-flushing?


----------



## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> I know all that Tommy, but just re-read his original post and you'll see what I'm saying.


The orignal post says the toilet was running on and off and still doing so.

The double flush is a result of the wrong flapper, but not addressing the orignal problem.


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

No...the fact that when he first looked at it the water level was fine. The double flushing is a result of installing a 3.5 flapper in a 1.6 toilet.


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

pauliplumber said:


> The orignal post says the toilet was running on and off and still doing so.
> 
> The double flush is a result of the wrong flapper, but not addressing the orignal problem.


I still contend from a thousand miles away that the original flapper was bad and letting the water seep out....then he installed the wrong flapper and it wont seat properly and double flushes.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

It's probably go a puckered up flush valve gasket like the Kohler Ingenium flush system toilets always have.

Trim it with a razor knife...


----------



## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> No...the fact that when he first looked at it the water level was fine. The double flushing is a result of installing a 3.5 flapper in a 1.6 toilet.


I agree the double flushing is a result of the wrong flapper.

Again, the original problem was the toilet was running on and off.

The wrong flapper should have stopped the on and off cycle.

He needs a new flush valve.


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

TheMaster said:


> I have a question.....Has anyone here ever replaced a brass flushvalve IN a toilet tank with a plastic flushvalve? I'm still learning...bear with me.


 
I installed a WB brass flush vavle in my own toilet. You have to cut the copper overflow tube if it's higher than trip-lever.


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

pauliplumber said:


> I agree the double flushing is a result of the wrong flapper.
> 
> Again, the original problem was the toilet was running on and off.
> 
> ...


Not if it did not seat properly. I have had several "Red Korkys" lately that were molded badly, ever so slightly, but enough to not seat correctly.


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Some plumbers would ask why replace only a flapper in the first place? Had you done a major tank re-build from beginning, there would not have been a call back. And ticket price would have been higher.


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> Some plumbers would ask why replace only a flapper in the first place? Had you done a major tank re-build from beginning, there would not have been a call back. And ticket price would have been higher.


If it only needed a flapper, regardless of whom I answered to, that is all it would get. I don't replace parts for the sake of having a higher priced ticket, that would be doing my client a disservice, and furthermore if one doesn't do his job correctly he will have a call back regardless of what he did.

The way I approach business is that I like to get as much money from my clients as possible, but I want to do it over a many year period, not all at once. In other words, I like to see them again........


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

So you repl, flapper today. Then 6 mos. later cust. calls back for same toilet. Now you replace fill valve. Then 6 mos. later they call again for same toilet. Then you replace flush valve. Then 6 mos. later you replace trip-lever, etc. At some point cust. is going to think either 1) you are not that smart or 2) plumber is trying to milk them for as much as you can. No doubt cust. at some point in this scenario WILL ask why didn't plumber replace items when originally out. Especially when they add up all trips.


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Does it have a refill tube? Maybe someone shoved it down to far in that pipe in the middle and it's suckin' water.


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> If it only needed a flapper, regardless of whom I answered to, that is all it would get. I don't replace parts for the sake of having a higher priced ticket, that would be doing my client a disservice, and furthermore if one doesn't do his job correctly he will have a call back regardless of what he did.
> 
> The way I approach business is that I like to get as much money from my clients as possible, but I want to do it over a many year period, not all at once. In other words, I like to see them again........





Tommy plumber said:


> So you repl, flapper today. Then 6 mos. later cust. calls back for same toilet. Now you replace fill valve. Then 6 mos. later they call again for same toilet. Then you replace flush valve. Then 6 mos. later you replace trip-lever, etc. At some point cust. is going to think either 1) you are not that smart or 2) plumber is trying to milk them for as much as you can. No doubt cust. at some point in this scenario WILL ask why didn't plumber replace items when originally out. Especially when they add up all trips.


So, you're being hardheaded tonite I see. 

IF THEY WEREN'T BROKE THE FIRST TIME THEN WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU REPLACE THEM???????????????


----------



## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> Not if it did not seat properly. I have had several "Red Korkys" lately that were molded badly, ever so slightly, but enough to not seat correctly.


I've had a few get outta wack from having weight sitting on them in my truck, never put anything on top of them:laughing:.

Most of the time I will try a couple of flappers before yanking the FV. It's key to have a variety of them. 

I work on alot of older toilets, I do see a fair amount of FV gaskets leaking by.

Don't get me wrong, 90% of the time the _right _flapper is all you need:thumbsup:.


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Choktaw- with all due respect I am showing you another way. For example, w/ elec. W/H are you going to repl. just upper thermostat if it is malfunctioning? I won't. I replace t-stats in pairs always. Upper and lower. Same with heating elements. Why just replace lower one when it's bad, replace upper and lower. And if W/H is out of warranty, sell them peice of mind by selling a new one. Tell them if they repair a 7 yr-old heater and then it leaks, they'll be throwing good money after bad. People will see the wisdom in this and allow me to install a new W/H with brand new warranty. Instead of just replacing (1) t-stat.


----------



## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Choctaw said:


> So, you're being hardheaded tonite I see.
> 
> IF THEY WEREN'T BROKE THE FIRST TIME THEN WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU REPLACE THEM???????????????


VERY situational as how much needs to be replaced. Sometimes everything, sometimes just a flapper.


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> Choktaw- with all due respect I am showing you another way. For example, w/ elec. W/H are you going to repl. just upper thermostat if it is malfunctioning? I won't. I replace t-stats in pairs always. Upper and lower. Same with heating elements. Why just replace lower one when it's bad, replace upper and lower. And if W/H is out of warranty, sell them peice of mind by selling a new one. Tell them if they repair a 7 yr-old heater and then it leaks, they'll be throwing good money after bad. People will see the wisdom in this and allow me to install a new W/H with brand new warranty. Instead of just replacing (1) t-stat.


With this scenario I agree, however I don't agree with the toilet assessment. :thumbsup:


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Sounds good to me. :thumbsup:


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

sometimes, just check the refill tube.

Where did everyone go?


----------



## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

Redwood said:


> It's probably go a puckered up flush valve gasket like the Kohler Ingenium flush system toilets always have.
> 
> Trim it with a razor knife...



Appears to be ok, didn't notice any distortion.


----------



## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

slickrick said:


> Does it have a refill tube? Maybe someone shoved it down to far in that pipe in the middle and it's suckin' water.





Yes, it has a refill tube and clipped where it should be.


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

Plumbdog said:


> [/COLOR]





Plumbdog said:


> Yes, it has a refill tube and clipped where it should be.




On this flush valve talk.

The valve, is it an angle seat valve? [plastic] If so probably the ball is not sealing properly. The only conventional flush ball that I have found for a angle seat valve is the "BLACK JACK" For years I have bought them from Creed Co. [Now Plumb-Master]. Example Wolverine Big Orange the older style would not work properly in a angle valve. It has now been changed to a flapper with more of a point. I have found some that it will not work in ... But the Black Jack always works. On the old flat brass flush valves I carry a seat grinder and always dress up the seat when putting in a new ball and lift wires and a guide if necessary.


----------



## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Real simple. Try another flapper, make sure it's sitting properly and not obstructed by the tank in any way. Mark tank level or use some food dye. If water level drops again, you 100% need a new flush valve. If it's an old toilet ya just might wanna put a new FV in anyway and fugetaboudit.


----------



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

If it has the ball and cock style ballcock...a quick drop in water pressure can cause it to quickly turn on and off.


----------



## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

Thank you all for the advice and recomendations. I have identified the flapper as an American Standard, that I will be installing tonight and returning the water level to proper place and hopefullybe done with this.

Thanks again

Dog


----------



## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

You might want to dye test it too. That way you know you have it fixed.


----------



## Plumbdog (Jan 27, 2009)

Plumber Jim said:


> You might want to dye test it too. That way you know you have it fixed.


 
I'm with there. The HO are out of town for the rest of the week, so I'll make my flapper change out throw a little dye in and check it in the morning.


----------

