# Would you work on a water heater that caught on fire?



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Customer called today for a nearly 11 year old 50 gallon electric water heater, caught on fire at the upper thermostat.

Wires came in contact with each other, fried everything. Might as well figure new elements and thermostats (upper/lower) 

or you're just plain retarded to leave that door open for a call back. 


Told the fellow of the costs for the parts (nearly $100) and my time, would definitely be in your best to replace that water heater. 


He told me the jacket for the yellow wire is completely burned off. Who knows if it didn't damage the breaker back at the panel.

Anything is possible at this point and the last thing I'm going to do is be the last hands on a water heater, 10+ years old that shows signs of being on fire, being held on the hook for time and effort of revamping that heater... and then it fails shortly thereafter (it can happen). 


I don't waste my time on calls like these, and after I got tired of hearing him repeat himself making it sound like all I need to do is bring electrical tape, I sent him off to another plumber to enjoy his strife without hot water.


I got real smart to working on electric water heaters; I'm not working on them. Either replace it or GTFO. I've tried replacement thermostats and if they are not proprietary (A.O. Smith heaters are proprietary) that you spend more time and aggravation than it's worth, standing in front of something that has a far better value in guarantee with a warranty on the materials.


Besides, 

Dr. Phil is on and the topic is housewives. mmmyes!!!!!!!!


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Eectric...oil or gas and how badly was it burnt..... just from flame roll out.... I need more info


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

My insurance agent says no :laughing:


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Honestly it depends on what the situation is. If the warranty has been compromised and that is verified with manufacturer, then definitely not.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Depends on how badly burnt..how old the heater is..

A heater is a tank and jacket , thermostats and elements and wire. Im not afraid...if an electrician is needed for the house wiring..its not mine.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Now that we know the facts....then yes a tank replacement is the recomendation.

a 10 year old tank and the cost to repair out weights the cost of a new one..:thumbup:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Replace


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

NO! Replace.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*me too*



plumbpro said:


> My insurance agent says no :laughing:


tell him to take a hike.... no way will I try to repair
a burnt up water heater ....
. 

that is just asking for trouble...

I rebuild bradford white and rheem electrics all 
the time with heavy duty SS elements and new 
upper and lower t stats..... all for the low low 
price of 289.00....

but not if they have that special smell to them


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Once the smoke has escaped they are no longer any good.:laughing:


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## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

If I were self employed, definately not. I wouldn't want the potential liability.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Liability is too high to repair, so I'd replace. I like and enjoy taking things apart and repairing as much as the next guy, but I won't risk it in this case.

I used to work for a contractor locally. My service manager would not let us change heating elements on a new install; he purchased the heater with the size elements from the supplier. For example, if HO has a circuit breaker for W/H which was let's say 20 amps and old W/H of course had let's say 3500 watt elements and the only W/H supply house had came with 4500 watt elements, my manager would not allow me to pick up W/H with 4500 watt elements and repl. with the 3500 watt elements.

When I asked him why he said if we alter it then we are liable for it. He added that if there was ever a fire and it was forensically traced back to W/H, then the liability was high. Better to let the factory install the size elements we needed.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> I used to work for a contractor locally. My service manager would not let us change heating elements on a new install; he purchased the heater with the size elements from the supplier. For example, if HO has a circuit breaker for W/H which was let's say 20 amps and old W/H of course had let's say 3500 watt elements and the only W/H supply house had came with 4500 watt elements, my manager would not allow me to pick up W/H with 4500 watt elements and repl. with the 3500 watt elements.
> 
> When I asked him why he said if we alter it then we are liable for it. He added that if there was ever a fire and it was forensically traced back to W/H, then the liability was high. Better to let the factory install the size elements we needed.


Your service manager obviously was stupid...:whistling2:

A lower wattage element would lessen the chance of a fire caused by overloading in that situation...

Good thing he was flying a desk instead of screwing up out in the field....


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Needless to say, I did NOT repair this one. My customer didn't argue with that.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> View attachment 7570
> 
> 
> 
> Needless to say, I did NOT repair this one. My customer didn't argue with that.


Looks like that one was leaking as well...


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

You know I don't remember, that pic is from like 2005 or so. When I showed up, the carpet may have been dry. In fact I do think it was dry. After install, we had a licensed electrician wire it (that contractor ALWAYS had an elec. wire the heaters) and he used to also check the breakers.

I remember the gentleman flipping me $ 100 tip when I got there, then he left for work. When I was done, the housekeeper locked up.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Replace it


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

The survey answers while an improvement from the older Dunbarian surveys still have a vast margin of error..
Answers like

definitely yes
definitely no
maybe 
probably yes
probably not
too much liability
depends on circumstances


rice fields, and I dont know choices are to say the least bad sociology....
...just a little suggestion...


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

11 year old heater that needs new T-stats & elements - We suggest investing their money in a replacement. Most water heaters are not going past 10 years anymore . . . practically no one flushes them or maintains them. If they insist on the repair, they are told up front that just flushing the water heater will stir up the sediment and possibly uncover a leak.

Add the fire into the mix and the answer is a definite no regardless of the age of water heater.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

We still get some of those 40 year old electrics around here. 

Man, them things are HEAVY.

Hate them.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I am the only one that would eat the rice out of the field.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I'd just call a plumber.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

slickrick said:


> I am the only one that would eat the rice out of the field.


 Was it the rice or the IDGAF :laughing:


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## grandpa (Jul 13, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Your service manager obviously was stupid...:whistling2:
> 
> A lower wattage element would lessen the chance of a fire caused by overloading in that situation...
> 
> Good thing he was flying a desk instead of screwing up out in the field....


 But technically speaking, replacing parts like-for-like is a repair, and CHANGING the unit, albeit to a lower wattage, could technically be considered a modification, which if not performed in the manufacturer's facility violates the UL listing.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

stillaround said:


> Was it the rice or the IDGAF :laughing:


Well, now that you mention it, both. I am not rewiring a w/h myself. Too much added liability IMO.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It would have to be a really good lawyer to show how lowering the wattage would cause a fire.

( sent from my droid x)


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Protech said:


> It would have to be a really good lawyer to show how lowering the wattage would cause a fire.
> 
> ( sent from my droid x)


 
There is a likey scenario; for instance if a plumber doesn't make his wire connections tight enough and arcing occurs, igniting some combustible material nearby, then liability could be assessed to the plumber. This is not that far of a stretch. And remember, a skilled attorney only has to convince the judge and jury NOT other plumbers on the plumbing zone.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Want to guess why T&P valves are installed in W/H's? I remember when they were just thrown in the box with the heater and it was up to the installer to install it in the top of the W/H. Probably some hick/hack didn't install it somewhere and there was a problem. 

I've heard of plumbers being sued when mold is discovered in a re-model. Some people will sue their own mother if they smell money.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

*Question on this post.*

Dunbar ...

I voted no ... however if there was signs of fire, probably the owners insurance would have covered the heater ... not the install. 

Now of course they might have a 500 - 1000 deductible. Then they are on there own.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> There is a likey scenario; for instance if a plumber doesn't make his wire connections tight enough and arcing occurs, igniting some combustible material nearby, then liability could be assessed to the plumber. This is not that far of a stretch. And remember, a skilled attorney only has to convince the judge and jury NOT other plumbers on the plumbing zone.


 
:laughing: :laughing:


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## DownHill (Oct 15, 2010)

WHAT?!?! WHAT HAVE YOU HEARD DUNBAR?!! HAVE YOU BEEN TO ANOTHER ONE OF MY ORIGINAL INSTALLS?!!?!


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

DownHill said:


> WHAT?!?! WHAT HAVE YOU HEARD DUNBAR?!! HAVE YOU BEEN TO ANOTHER ONE OF MY ORIGINAL INSTALLS?!!?!


 
As the Japanese shrimp farmer always says, "With tail come no fail"


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> As the Japanese shrimp farmer always says, "With tail come no fail"


 

 Was something lost in the translation or are the cocktails kicking in?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> You know I don't remember, that pic is from like 2005 or so. When I showed up, the carpet may have been dry. In fact I do think it was dry. After install, we had a licensed electrician wire it (that contractor ALWAYS had an elec. wire the heaters) and he used to also check the breakers.
> 
> I remember the gentleman flipping me $ 100 tip when I got there, then he left for work. When I was done, the housekeeper locked up.


The rusty waterline across the bottom of the service panel and the 2 rusty stains dripping down says it was...:whistling2:

No doubt a contributing factor to the smoking electrical components...


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

grandpa said:


> But technically speaking, replacing parts like-for-like is a repair, and CHANGING the unit, albeit to a lower wattage, could technically be considered a modification, which if not performed in the manufacturer's facility violates the UL listing.


Not exactly!

You use UL Listed components don't you?:whistling2:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> There is a likey scenario; for instance if a plumber doesn't make his wire connections tight enough and arcing occurs, igniting some combustible material nearby, then liability could be assessed to the plumber. This is not that far of a stretch. And remember, a skilled attorney only has to convince the judge and jury NOT other plumbers on the plumbing zone.


So you are saying when a plumber repairs a water heater they should call in an electrician as a sub? :whistling2:

Here the electrician ends where the wire connects to the water heater....:laughing:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Redwood said:


> So you are saying when a plumber repairs a water heater they should call in an electrician as a sub? :whistling2:
> 
> Here the electrician ends where the wire connects to the water heater....:laughing:


Not on repairs. But the guy that I used to work for always had an electrician connect a new install, probably for no other reason then to remove liability from himself. 

When I did new construction and we were setting fixtures, we never wired the elec. W/H's, we never wired the D/W's and we never wired the disposals. 

I would think that up north in Connecticut where unions are strong, electricians' local would be pretty upset with plumbers doing electrical work of any kind. Wouldn't you think, huh? Just ask IBEW.


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## dankman (Nov 19, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Your service manager obviously was stupid...:whistling2:
> 
> A lower wattage element would lessen the chance of a fire caused by overloading in that situation...
> 
> Good thing he was flying a desk instead of screwing up out in the field....


No, it sounds like his service manager didn't want even the remotest chance of a headache in the future. Do you buy a car, swap out the engine and, expect the manufacture to honor their warranty without written approval? I doubt many water heater manufactures are willing to do the same thing unless it is done by one of their reps and that they'd be protected from any lawsuit once their product was altered, regardless of who's at fault. 


Someone else is obviously stupid.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> Not on repairs. But the guy that I used to work for always had an electrician connect a new install, probably for no other reason then to remove liability from himself.
> 
> When I did new construction and we were setting fixtures, we never wired the elec. W/H's, we never wired the D/W's and we never wired the disposals.
> 
> I would think that up north in Connecticut where unions are strong, electricians' local would be pretty upset with plumbers doing electrical work of any kind. Wouldn't you think, huh? Just ask IBEW.


There will be a piece of 10/2 sitting there for us to connect to...
We don't run wire and put in circuits....


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

dankman said:


> No, it sounds like his service manager didn't want even the remotest chance of a headache in the future. *Do you buy a car, swap out the engine and, expect the manufacture to honor their warranty without written approval? * I doubt many water heater manufactures are willing to do the same thing unless it is done by one of their reps and that they'd be protected from any lawsuit once their product was altered, regardless of who's at fault.
> 
> Someone else is obviously stupid.


Well as a matter of fact I did build a 427 Chevy motor with aluminum heads, 12.5:1 forged aluminum pistons, forged crank, roller cam, tunnel ram manifold topped with Holley Dominator that turn 7,500 rpm and put out a bunch of horsepower into an Olds 442 that ended up running low 10's in the 1/4 mile with a top speed around 145 mph but I did not ask GM for a warranty on the car... :laughing:

There wasn't much GM left in that car except some of the body sheet metal...

But on my stock street car I brought it to Transmission Shop for repairs and GM did pay the bill. My understanding was that some of the parts they used were non-OEM parts... :whistling2:


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> Not on repairs. But the guy that I used to work for always had an electrician connect a new install, probably for no other reason then to remove liability from himself.
> 
> When I did new construction and we were setting fixtures, we never wired the elec. W/H's, we never wired the D/W's and we never wired the disposals.
> 
> I would think that up north in Connecticut where unions are strong, electricians' local would be pretty upset with plumbers doing electrical work of any kind. Wouldn't you think, huh? Just ask IBEW.


I've never been on a new job that the plumber connected the heater or dishwasher either. Probably more to do with the fact that it's being inspected under the electrician's permit than anything else. Just my guess.


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## dankman (Nov 19, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Well as a matter of fact I did build a 427 Chevy motor with aluminum heads, 12.5:1 forged aluminum pistons, forged crank, roller cam, tunnel ram manifold topped with Holley Dominator that turn 7,500 rpm and put out a bunch of horsepower into an Olds 442 that ended up running low 10's in the 1/4 mile with a top speed around 145 mph but I did not ask GM for a warranty on the car... :laughing:
> 
> There wasn't much GM left in that car except some of the body sheet metal...
> 
> But on my stock street car I brought it to Transmission Shop for repairs and GM did pay the bill. My understanding was that some of the parts they used were non-OEM parts... :whistling2:



Wow, you must be the coolest car guy around. VROOOOOM! VROOOOOM!:laughing::laughing::laughing: That's so rich.



And you never had contact with GM before sending your car to the local tranny shop? I'm sure they're totally cool with anyone modifying anyone modifying their cars and expecting warranty service. :whistling2:


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Man I don't know anyone in their right mind that would want to repair an electrical fixture or appliance after it has caught on fire. What a wack job.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ckoch407 said:


> I've never been on a new job that the plumber connected the heater or dishwasher either. Probably more to do with the fact that it's being inspected under the electrician's permit than anything else. Just my guess.


It is done many times everyday in service work...:whistling2:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

dankman said:


> And you never had contact with GM before sending your car to the local tranny shop? I'm sure they're totally cool with anyone modifying anyone modifying their cars and expecting warranty service. :whistling2:


You are not obligated to bring your car to a dealer for service and repairs to keep the warranty in effect...

But go ahead if it makes you feel better...

The local dealership sent their tranny repair work to this other shop anyway...:laughing:


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Redwood said:


> It is done many times everyday in service work...:whistling2:


Yes I concur. Our code allows us to do the electric on a repair or replacement. Just can't install new, alter, or extend it. Seems absurd to have an electrician come in for that. 

I also agree with your post above about the UL components etc. Manufacturers have licensed plumbers repair or alter their units to fit certain applications. So long as those are UL parts and are not going to make the tank exceed it's rated limits, what's the issue?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ckoch407 said:


> Yes I concur. Our code allows us to do the electric on a repair or replacement. Just can't install new, alter, or extend it. Seems absurd to have an electrician come in for that.
> 
> I also agree with your post above about the UL components etc. Manufacturers have licensed plumbers repair or alter their units to fit certain applications. So long as those are UL parts and are not going to make the tank exceed it's rated limits, what's the issue?


I'm not at all sure but some here seem to have an issue with it. :laughing:

I for one would definitely change out the 4500 watt elements and install 3500 watt elements on a water heater connected to a 20-amp circuit or better yet I'd bring in the electrician to upgrade the circuit to a 30 amp circuit.

Now that said...

When some plumber comes along and after a visit to Home Cheapo comes back and replaces the elements with a Camco # 02963 5500 watt element or, a Camco #02613 6000 watt element there might be a problem!:laughing:

Hopefully the circuit breaker works....:whistling2:


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