# Not a way to start the year



## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

First call yesterday at a doctors office I did 4 1/2 years ago, It is the main line coming into the unit and the only one under slab, the rest is overhead. I have had a similar problem like this on 7 other jobs in the past 9 years. How the hell does this happen after so long. The unit had a 160psi hydrostatic test on it for 1st and 2nd rough. It took me years to change from copper to cpvc due to the water quality in this state. Guess my next option is pex..


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

the FL water will eat the brass fittings in the pex, so your stuck using all plastic pex fittings. What about that fusiontherm pipe?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Hate to say it, but if there is one, there will be many.


Did you do this under warranty or under good deed? 


That's the thing about new construction, and nobody wants

to talk about it, but if you keep an ongoing relationship with those you did work for in new construction, the failures start to show up and you eat away that profit margin.


That's why I fell in love with the fix and repair scenario and haven't looked back.

Service is rough, comes with the territory though.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

It looks to me like the joint was leaking and the stream of water up through the joint eroded the plastic pipe causing a bigger leak.

Look at the missing cement directly below the hole.

Or, maybe it worked the other way around...
Any case it sux.


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

Dunbar, I repaired it at no cost seeing how I am not sure what caused it. Anyway the builder who does these offices has another office we are starting in a few weeks.

Redwood, the glue joint good around the fitting. The split is a hair above the 90.


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

how clean is that soil?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Not anywhere south of ocala it won't. I was born and raised here bud and I'v yet to see a single brass fitting failure(other than casting defects).



GREENPLUM said:


> the FL water will eat the brass fittings in the pex, so your stuck using all plastic pex fittings. What about that fusiontherm pipe?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I have seen several failures in my area just like that ESP. It known as "evirontmental stress cracking". Read up on it. Its caused by chemical exposure. That's one of the many reasons I hate CPVC. I'm a pexer for sure.

The crack formed well after testing and that's why it didn't show up(it didn't exists at the time). 

PEX is very resistant to environmental stress cracking <hint hint>


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

ESPinc said:


> Dunbar, I repaired it at no cost seeing how I am not sure what caused it. Anyway the builder who does these offices *has another office we are starting in a few weeks.*
> 
> .


 
You pretty much have to devalue your time to 1 penny an hour, cuss the nature of plumbing products these days and move on.


We used to get sucked into crap that happened that sometimes wasn't even our fault. Stupid crap like the trim guy who shot a nail into the piping in the wall, no one would pay including the property owner. ???


That relationship working with others can be destructive, especially if you have the notion that when it is done, it is DONE. 

If I had a dollar for every time we were called out 'after' occupancy... 90% were plumbing non-related, like:


Leak at base of toilet - << shower curtain not pulled tight or shower door not closed enough

Leaking sound in ceiling, but no watermark - << didn't matter if you told them thermal expansion, they want you to come out, then they want you to open the walls and free up the spot it's gliding over wood, or a strap/j-hook.

Not enough hot water - << No one at the house "in person" to set the settings on the thermostat balancing spools on the tub/showers. Setting at a max setting *120 degrees* opens liability up, even though it's the setting we follow most times for the setting of the water heater.

Outside faucets leaking - << People not understanding that frostproof faucets WILL leak out by nature. Telling them over the phone never seemed to work as they always called the builder back, stating they was going to call a plumber of their choice and give him the bill, which you know where that is headed. :furious:

If you are in new construction, you take your hits like the rest of us in service. It just seems that in service you posess a specific situation, specific area, nowhere else...whereby a complete installation can open a peril of variables that can be the undoing of whether you make money consistently, fearing that dreaded call for something unexplained or *"We need you to come out here and look at this, see what is going on."* < I hated those ****ing words with a passion.


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## jerad (Oct 27, 2009)

it looks like somethikng ate it from the outside, weaking the pipe.


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## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

I think if you switched to Aquatherm PP-R, (Polypropylene) your problems with water quality would be over. It's also very high density so it would last longer than CPVC or PVC products.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_stress_cracking

http://www.rapra.net/consultancy/enviromental-testing-enviromental-stress-cracking.asp

read up


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

A polyvinyl chloride (PVC) pressure pipe failed at the cement bonded joints because the solvent in the cement had not been given sufficient time to evaporate before the joints were pressure tested.
 Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene (ABS) consoles cracked due to plasticiser migration from the PVC wire insulation


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

This mechanism, known as creep rupture or static fatigue, is a common cause of product failure and is easily overlooked in favour of assumed environmental effects.
Many factors will accelerate this naturally occurring embrittlment process including:


stress concentration (notch sensitivity),
increase in temperature,
cyclic loading (dynamic fatigue)
contact with specific chemical environments (ESC).
 The ESC mechanism in simple terms is a physical interaction involving highly localised plasticisation via stress enhanced fluid absorption at stress concentrating defects, which does not involve chemical change or molecular degradation of the plastic. 
In order to fully understand ESC mechanism, consider that on a micro-scale polymer surfaces contain a high density of stress concentrating defects. There is no consensus as to the nature of these defects other than surface flaws, chance defects, or local or perhaps characteristic fluctuation in the materials microstructure. Typically these defects range in stress concentration factor (SCF) from 1 to 50. Local yielding will occur at these defects if the product of the applied stress and the SCF exceeds the yield strength of the material. When subjected to high stress a high density of locally yielded sites will form, which will then grow and multiply with time under stress due to the time dependent reduction in yield strength. This results in a coalescence of yielded sites and eventual microscopic yield failure of the material. However, at low applied stresses only small number of severe sites will be micro-yielded. These sites will grow slowly in the plane normal to the principal applied stress direction with negligible chance of coalescence with other sites in close proximity. These planar yielded zones cavitate and fibrillate to become crazes, which eventually reach a critical length for unstable crack growth. Consequently high stress promotes early ductile failure and low stress promotes delayed brittle failure as shown in Figure 1.0. 
Absorption of any fluid plasticises the polymer and reduces its yield strength. The greater the concentration of absorbed fluid, the lower the yield strength. The tips of flaws under stress absorb more fluid than the surrounding material. Consequently the yield strength of the material is the lowest at points of highest stress. This geometrical coincidence tends to reduce the diameter of the yielded zone with little blunting of the stress concentration. The stress concentration in front of the initial yielded zone remains high, fluid is locally absorbed and the zone grows over a thin plane normal to the applied stress until crazing and fracture occur. 
As most fluids have a greater affinity for plastics than air, then most fluids (including water) will accelerate the embrittlement process. Thus it may be assumed that in terms of their effect on a particular plastic all fluids may be described as stress cracking agents. The chances of tracking down any experimental data on ESC for a given fluid/plastic pair are generally remote. This is because there are tens of thousands of fluid chemicals and mixes and many generic plastics. Consequently given the common query “what plastic is safe to use in contact with particular fluids?” the only practical options are prediction or testing. From the available published data and the incidences of ESC, the following generalizations can be made: 


 Amorphous thermoplastics are considerably more prone to ESC than either semi-crystalline thermoplastics or thermosets. The ESC resistance of semi-crystalline polymers is attributed to regions of closely packed crystals, which act as barriers to fluid penetration and as crack stoppers. Significant research has concentrated on the ESC of polyethylene, a semi-crystalline plastic. The molecular architecture, density, length and degree of entanglement of intercrystalline (tie) molecules, have been found to have a profound influence of ESC resistance. For polyethylene’s this research has allowed molecular architecture to be optimised to give enhanced ESC performance. Unfortunately in the case of glassy amorphous thermoplastics there are no tie molecules, and therefore options to improve ESC resistance are restricted.
 Fluids with modest hydrogen bonding are most likely to be severe or moderate stress cracking agents. Typically these include organic fluids classed as aromatic hydrocarbons, halogenated hydrocarbons, ethers, ketones, aldehydes, esters and nitrogen / sulphur containing compounds. Non-hydrogen bonded fluids such as aliphatic hydrocarbons and highly hydrogen bonded fluids such as water and alcohols tend to be milder in this respect.
 Fluids with a high molar volume, which tend to have high viscosity and high boiling points are less likely to be severe stress cracking agents.
 Fluids are most aggressive near to their boiling point.
 Amorphous plastics are most susceptible to ESC at temperatures that approach their glass transition temperature (Tg).
 Polymers with low molecular weight (high melt flow index (MFI)) suffer from reduced ESC resistance.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I'll summarize for those how don't want to wade threw all the techno babble:

ESC is caused by exposure to some chemicals. Amorphous polymers are more suseptable to ESC than semi-crystalline polymers.

pvc, cpvc and abs are all amorphous polymers.

Pex is semi-crystalline (aka a thermoset polymer).

To summarize further: Use pex not cpvc

If you insist on using cpvc then you had better make damn sure that it does not come into contact with the huge list of chemicals that it’s incompatible with. This is tough seeing as how you can’t easily control what has happened to the pipe and fittings before and after you installed them.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*protect the pipe*

Protect the damn pipe ..from expansion and contraction...

In hindsight, do you feel if you would have protected that pipe with an aramaflex rubber
sleeve....instead of just "en-toumbing" it directly in the concrete..
.would it still have failed???

We just did a large slab rough with Wirsbo pipe.
it has not even been poured yet.. its too damn cold.........

and we spent the extra 150 dollars for 
the armaflex covering on everything underground... 
both hot and cold..


I believe that we could actually pull another run 
through that 3/4 armaflex if we ever had to,,.


I dont want to ever have to fool with a mess 
like that one you got. 7 years from now

aramaflex is your best freind


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

I try not to run anything under slab anymore. The concrete guys down here don't give a ***t .


Thanks for all the info Protech


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Good explanation Protech, but I still think it had to do with the interstitial space. :yes:

:laughing: Couldn't resist Protech!


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## drtyhands (Aug 16, 2008)

Fittings under a slab are a gamble.
We are not allowed any other than copper pipe and fitting silver soldered.


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

how clean was the backfill? ie. rocks and such?


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

Plumbworker said:


> how clean was the backfill? ie. rocks and such?


It looked clean to me, nothing unusual, no rocks. Maybe I should get some analyzed who knows..


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

ESPinc said:


> It looked clean to me, nothing unusual, no rocks. Maybe I should get some analyzed who knows..


 
Some of the materials coming out of the gravel pits in our region are coming with extremely high ph levels.


A guy came in furious that his copper piping destroyed itself. I asked if it was from the inside out or outside in. He told me outside in.


I told him to test the pipe sand that was used, that's probably the culprit.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It had nothing to do with PH. If it was metal pipe then I would say yes, look into it.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I got one for ya ESP. Under slab on a straight piece of 1" cpvc pipe. No glue or fittings within 2'. Clean clay fill with no debris of any kind. Pipe was not stressed at all . Completely straight. Jet was aimed upwards making me think it was chemical exposure from the outside dripped on top of the pipe.

Yeah boy, love me some cpvc . Condo is only 3 years old.

Search tags: cpvc leak, cpvc failure, environmental stress cracking, brittle cpvc, cpvc cplit, cpvc crack, leaking cpvc, cpvc pipe failures


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Just did yet another cpvc slab leak. Home was built in 2001. I'll post pics tomorrow.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

As promised. House built in 2001 by 4H plumbing. Nice job 4H


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

More pics of the cpvc pipe failure that flooded out this relatively new home. Oh yes, that's some good stuff .


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

Is that pipe/fitting failure or a bad glue joint ?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Cracked fitting.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

lookslike$$$tome


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Got another one for ya.


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## SummPlumb (Feb 19, 2010)

This is what I saw when I pulled up. They acted like it was an emergency. By my calculations, this pool house had been running for two weeks. It got down to 15 degrees.
57,000 gallons later.....


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