# How about this quality workmanship....



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I went to this little shanty 3 room shack in town sitting in the middle of a field....
As rough as it was, you would think it was a fishing cabin up in minnesota or canada.... 3 rooms bath and a kitchen....

I am proud of how it turned out ---
you dont get to just throw something together with a 2x10 and spikes onto a bathroom wall on just any old day ....:vs_laugh:.

the spout is at least 2 foot above the flood rim of the fixture so I dont want to hear crap about not being up to code.....

the quality copper shower curtain rod was already there so that is not my workmanship....

so I put in what he wanted..I think he will eventually paint the wood white...... 

.. I dont think he is gonna be entertaining any hot chicks anytime soon in that tub...:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:. 



before 
https://photos.app.goo.gl/weQjHcxa58AaPmHH7


after
https://photos.app.goo.gl/VXi9VdKim3FbgZkV6


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

thats just hill billy heaven...:vs_laugh::vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Amazing, thanks for posting these. The ridgid cutter looks new compared to the rest of the bathroom.

There's a reason the spout is so high, I just wonder why? He actually had money to pay you, he got an inheritance and decided to splurge? :vs_laugh:

I haven't seen these 2 handle faucets sold for long time. No longer code.

I read somewhere there what like 20% of americans who don't have a toilet in their home. Does he have a toilet at least?:vs_whistle:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> Amazing, thanks for posting these. The ridgid cutter looks new compared to the rest of the bathroom.
> 
> There's a reason the spout is so high, I just wonder why? He actually had money to pay you, he got an inheritance and decided to splurge? :vs_laugh:
> 
> ...




Actually the place is tolerable..... its just an old 30x30 square slab home and a little old lady lived her life in and eventually died there... Its on a septic and has a well house out back that they have to keep heated in the winter. The garage off the driveway is about as large as the house..

basically one bathroom, one kitchen with a 40 gallon heater in it... 

we also ran pex lines overhead into the living room for a laundry outlet.. Had a drain in the floor we tied onto.....


those tub faucets are sold in the local hardware store (menards) and actually are top of the line excellent 2 handle faucets called tuscanny. 

They are basically a delta patent copy cat faucet and seem to last forever..... They have been very good faucets for 50 bucks each....
:biggrin:


Once he cleans the place up it probably wont be too bad cause the area its located in is rather pleasant....

.He paid cash and is living cheap.....:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:

The rigid baby cutter is just a few weeks old


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> those tub faucets are sold in the local hardware store (menards) and actually are top of the line excellent 2 handle faucets called tuscanny.
> 
> They are basically a delta patent copy cat faucet and seem to last forever..... They have been very good faucets for 50 bucks each....


Top of the line??? You must have been joking. Tuscany is just as bad as Pfister. We will install those if customer supply them but no warranty on it. We will refuse to try and repair those brands and just tell customers that it is an automatic replacement instead of dealing with the headache of finding parts.

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

The Dane said:


> Top of the line??? You must have been joking. Tuscany is just as bad as Pfister. We will install those if customer supply them but no warranty on it. We will refuse to try and repair those brands and just tell customers that it is an automatic replacement instead of dealing with the headache of finding parts.
> 
> Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk





I dont know about the other stuff tuscanny puts out, and you might be totally right about it all being junk.. 
We have had to find a faucet that was better than just a sayco brand and we found this one to be pretty good.... I found the Moen 2 handle faucets to SUCK....


I thought the same thing when I ran into one of them probably 15 years ago.... but I had to take it apart due to rust in the faucet to make repairs and the washer and cartridge is basically a delta replacement part... its a copy cat of the Delta patent faucet they had discontinued years ago so it cant be too god awful bad....

I have had to replace quite a number of them in repair situations where you could not just tear out all the tile and upgrade to a single handle faucet and they have worked great..... all mostly in rentals and cheap dumps....

in fact we have probably installed somewhere between 50-100 of them over the past 15 years and I have never gone back to repair one of them yet..

and it is more than good enough for that place..





..


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> I dont know about the other stuff tuscanny puts out, and you might be totally right about it all being junk..
> 
> We have had to find a faucet that was better than just a sayco brand and we found this one to be pretty good.... I found the Moen 2 handle faucets to SUCK....
> 
> ...


Good to know, Thanks. We normally just run in to those Menards and Lowe's brands when customer got their own lav faucets or maybe kitchen faucet. I have never seen their shower faucets. Part of why we don't like big big box store brands is that they seem to change their design on parts every few years and then it gets to be a headache trying to get a hold of a part because you go look at the box store and they don't carry the part anymore. I can get new cartridges for Moen and delta from 30 years ago in minutes. It is possible to repair those box store brands but at what point is it cost efficient. If we have to spend extra time finding the part we end up with a bill almost the same as putting in a new one. If we go look and tell the customer to order that part from the manufacture then he has to wait a couple of weeks to get it repaired and possibly get the wrong part and now we have 3 trip charges and again might as well have put in a new faucet. The faucets themselves are not necessarily that bad but the repair later on is.

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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

When my wife and I moved back to Michigan we stayed at her parents for a few months till we found jobs. They had an old leaky Moen kitchen faucet and I decided to replace it for them. First experience with Tuscany. About six weeks later I replaced it with a Delta that I rebuilt.

Couple weeks ago I had a main line prevent and the HO got the parts from Tuscany for free. Just like a Delta.... although the top white plastic piece they sent wasn’t right. Thankfully the old one was fine.

Two and three handle tub shower valves are code as long as you put in a tempering valve. I’ve actually had customers who will spend the extra money to keep it looking original.

Tango, I don’t know how many hunting shacks are out there with two holers for ****ters, but any residents requires a stool. In fact, my area requires a washer/dryer hook up in every rental.


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

Tango said:


> Amazing, thanks for posting these. The ridgid cutter looks new compared to the rest of the bathroom.
> 
> There's a reason the spout is so high, I just wonder why? He actually had money to pay you, he got an inheritance and decided to splurge? <img src="http://www.plumbingzone.com/images/smilies/vs_laugh.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Vs Laugh" class="inlineimg" />
> 
> ...



20% no way. Maybe 2% of homes have an outhouse, but they are in the sticks.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Fatpat said:


> 20% no way. Maybe 2% of homes have an outhouse, but they are in the sticks.


I was just shooting a number from my a$$(pun intended) It was from an article I read a couple months ago. Looks like I added taxes and exchange rate to inflate the number to 20%. Oops :wink:

https://theweek.com/articles/590312/shocking-number-americans-dont-have-toilet


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

The Dane said:


> Good to know, Thanks. We normally just run in to those Menards and Lowe's brands when customer got their own lav faucets or maybe kitchen faucet. I have never seen their shower faucets. Part of why we don't like big big box store brands is that they seem to change their design on parts every few years and then it gets to be a headache trying to get a hold of a part because you go look at the box store and they don't carry the part anymore. I can get new cartridges for Moen and delta from 30 years ago in minutes. It is possible to repair those box store brands but at what point is it cost efficient. If we have to spend extra time finding the part we end up with a bill almost the same as putting in a new one. If we go look and tell the customer to order that part from the manufacture then he has to wait a couple of weeks to get it repaired and possibly get the wrong part and now we have 3 trip charges and again might as well have put in a new faucet. The faucets themselves are not necessarily that bad but the repair later on is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I just tangled with a 2008 price fister that you could not identify and I had to break the handle off the shower faucet just to figure out what the hell it was.....:vs_OMG:.

I drove across town with the cartridge and all the parts in the hope of finding them at a special plumbing supply house downtown that specializes in odd ball faucets......

I got the last parts that they had and they stated that the crappy price fister faucet was usually found at menards these days....now I know....

it all fell together perfectly when I got back to the house and I am blessed that it did....and I got the hell out of there

This 2 handle Tuscanny does not scare me at all com paired to when you run into these odd ball price fisters, Kohlers, or american standard faucets..... 

and may God have mercy on your soul :vs_OMG::vs_OMG:


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Fatpat said:


> 20% no way. Maybe 2% of homes have an outhouse, but they are in the sticks.



I bet that 20% would be close in alaska...lots of out houses there, and no running water..


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Master Mark said:


> I just tangled with a 2008 price fister that you could not identify and I had to break the handle off the shower faucet just to figure out what the hell it was.....:vs_OMG:.
> 
> I drove across town with the cartridge and all the parts in the hope of finding them at a special plumbing supply house downtown that specializes in odd ball faucets......
> 
> ...



I havent repaired a faucet in 10 years or more, I tell the people by the time I find or try to find the correct parts and add all my labor up and I dont offer any guarantee on repairs to a used faucet , its cheaper and easier to just replace it and almost always I have them buy the new faucet so any issues I get paid again to replace the new one again, its worked out fine for me, less aggravation and BS..if they dont want to do it they can get someone else to fix it...on the rare occasion the people have all the repair parts and they are correct, I tell them they are paying my labor whether it works or not at the end..the one thing I will replace and again if the home owner gets it, are the pull out hoses on kitchen faucets if the faucet doesnt look all beat up and rusted together , other wise , replace it..
most people opt to replace and get a new faucet, and think since they are buying the faucet im not making any money on the faucet and they are correct, im making my money changing it out and when it leaks or missing parts more money coming back a 2nd time, otherwise it would be on me and my time lost if I supplied the faucet...


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I havent repaired a faucet in 10 years or more, I tell the people by the time I find or try to find the correct parts and add all my labor up and I dont offer any guarantee on repairs to a used faucet , its cheaper and easier to just replace it and almost always I have them buy the new faucet so any issues I get paid again to replace the new one again, its worked out fine for me, less aggravation and BS..if they dont want to do it they can get someone else to fix it...on the rare occasion the people have all the repair parts and they are correct, I tell them they are paying my labor whether it works or not at the end..the one thing I will replace and again if the home owner gets it, are the pull out hoses on kitchen faucets if the faucet doesnt look all beat up and rusted together , other wise , replace it..
> most people opt to replace and get a new faucet, and think since they are buying the faucet im not making any money on the faucet and they are correct, im making my money changing it out and when it leaks or missing parts more money coming back a 2nd time, otherwise it would be on me and my time lost if I supplied the faucet...






I am 100% with you on this.... but this particular faucet I was planning on changing out to a 1700 Delta, but some dumbass installed it on a in-accessable wall that just could not be changed out...........

I thought I could change the faucet from the front by installing one of those large trim plates that Delta sells to cover where the 8 inch spread faucet was ....but I was dead wrong and in deep , deep trouble.....:vs_OMG:

I just got lucky to find the right parts to make repairs to this junk 
and I got out of there by the skin of my balls:vs_laugh::devil3:


https://photos.app.goo.gl/xkb5u15LqWsLYvzi8


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Master Mark said:


> I am 100% with you on this.... but this particular faucet I was planning on changing out to a 1700 Delta,  but some dumbass installed it on a in-accessable wall that just could not be changed out...........
> 
> I thought I could change the faucet from the front by installing one of those large trim plates that Delta sells to cover where the 8 inch spread faucet was ....but I was dead wrong and in deep , deep trouble.....:vs_OMG:
> 
> ...



in the past when faced with that I tell the people I can use a piece of square white plastic that home depot sells about 2 ft square that will cover the access hole I need to make to change out the shower body, the plastic is the newest and shiniest thing in the bathroom, and I just silicone the back for a water tight seal and a few stainless screws and im done and the people are happy and limited cost for the plastic cover...
the best tool for cutting old plastic surrounds is a roto zip that sheet rockers use, it has a million uses once you buy it...
the other tool just as useful is the oscillating cutter..for cutting flush pipes, under vanities to cut wood out around the faucet, just tons of things you can cut that would drive you crazy before, wood, metal, plastic almost anything..

https://www.amazon.com/Fein-MultiMa...2&sr=8-17&keywords=multitool+oscillating+tool


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> in the past when faced with that I tell the people I can use a piece of square white plastic that home depot sells about 2 ft square that will cover the access hole I need to make to change out the shower body, the plastic is the newest and shiniest thing in the bathroom, and I just silicone the back for a water tight seal and a few stainless screws and im done and the people are happy and limited cost for the plastic cover...
> the best tool for cutting old plastic surrounds is a roto zip that sheet rockers use, it has a million uses once you buy it...
> the other tool just as useful is the oscillating cutter..for cutting flush pipes, under vanities to cut wood out around the faucet, just tons of things you can cut that would drive you crazy before, wood, metal, plastic almost anything..
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Fein-MultiMa...2&sr=8-17&keywords=multitool+oscillating+tool



Do you have a link for this piece of plastic? I buy 14" adjustable access panels for the back but for the front it would be nice to know.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> This 2 handle Tuscanny does not scare me at all com paired to when you run into these odd ball price fisters, Kohlers, or american standard faucets.....
> 
> and may God have mercy on your soul :vs_OMG::vs_OMG:


Talk about american standard faucets...they aren't popular but now it's even worse. They do not send parts to HD anymore, they want the customer to call them. I got the last kitchen cartridge they had and to top it off supposedly they have various cartridges for Kitchen faucets. Ha!


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I havent repaired a faucet in 10 years or more, I tell the people by the time I find or try to find the correct parts and add all my labor up and I dont offer any guarantee on repairs to a used faucet , its cheaper and easier to just replace it and almost always I have them buy the new faucet so any issues I get paid again to replace the new one again, its worked out fine for me, less aggravation and BS..if they dont want to do it they can get someone else to fix it...on the rare occasion the people have all the repair parts and they are correct, I tell them they are paying my labor whether it works or not at the end..the one thing I will replace and again if the home owner gets it, are the pull out hoses on kitchen faucets if the faucet doesnt look all beat up and rusted together , other wise , replace it..
> most people opt to replace and get a new faucet, and think since they are buying the faucet im not making any money on the faucet and they are correct, im making my money changing it out and when it leaks or missing parts more money coming back a 2nd time, otherwise it would be on me and my time lost if I supplied the faucet...



What do you do when someone says they have a kitchen leak. You find out it's the faucet, since you don't carry any and you don't repair them. Do you charge another full fee to come back when they purchased another? Or do you wait in your truck while they go shopping?

Do you charge full price 1st time and you know right away it's the faucet?

On the phone I tell them I have 3 major brands for parts but there will be 2 charges if I need to run around for parts or they have the option to buy a new one. They hang up and never call me back.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> Do you have a link for this piece of plastic? I buy 14" adjustable access panels for the back but for the front it would be nice to know.



here is what I found online so far, you can cut it down, next time I may buy the big panel as its cheaper than buying the smaller on, this could also be used if you had to replace the pipe to the shower too...just cut the panel the width of the tub or shower and as high as you need for about $20 .00
https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-16-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-Plastic-Panel-63003/202090190


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> here is what I found online so far, you can cut it down, next time I may buy the big panel as its cheaper than buying the smaller on, this could also be used if you had to replace the pipe to the shower too...just cut the panel the width of the tub or shower and as high as you need for about $20 .00
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-16-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-Plastic-Panel-63003/202090190


Ah that's sad we don't have that. I'd have to buy a tub surround and cut it up to manageable sizes and throw away the corners.

I'm wondering if you make a patch like that can they come back on you saying it leaked and you need to buy them a new living room ceiling. I always leave it open and tell them to hire a tile guy to protect my a$$.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> in the past when faced with that I tell the people I can use a piece of square white plastic that home depot sells about 2 ft square that will cover the access hole I need to make to change out the shower body, the plastic is the newest and shiniest thing in the bathroom, and I just silicone the back for a water tight seal and a few stainless screws and im done and the people are happy and limited cost for the plastic cover...
> the best tool for cutting old plastic surrounds is a roto zip that sheet rockers use, it has a million uses once you buy it...
> the other tool just as useful is the oscillating cutter..for cutting flush pipes, under vanities to cut wood out around the faucet, just tons of things you can cut that would drive you crazy before, wood, metal, plastic almost anything..
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Fein-MultiMa...2&sr=8-17&keywords=multitool+oscillating+tool




I would not be able to get away with doing something like that to a fiberglass tub.... 
I can get 4x8 sheets of tub surround panels and have actually glued a peice of this over a tile wall before to cover the old tile and make it look fairly good . 
I would not try to rig this up on some fiberglass shower unit... it would look pretty awful after a while.......:vs_laugh:

check out the repair parts for that tuscanny faucet $10 bucks--cheap

https://photos.app.goo.gl/uz3D9s427FWtWsby7


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Master Mark said:


> I would not be able to get away with doing something like that to a fiberglass tub....
> I can get 4x8 sheets of tub surround panels and have actually glued a peice of this over a tile wall before to cover the old tile and make it look fairly good .
> I would not try to rig this up on some fiberglass shower unit... it would look pretty awful after a while.......:vs_laugh:
> 
> ...



if its a tile wall I do the tile patch, I was just talking about using the plastic if you had to cut open a cheapo job and needed a patch, that was NOT for any quality job that had good money...


those parts are 100% chinesium....guaranteed to fail soon after instillation.... :vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> Ah that's sad we don't have that. I'd have to buy a tub surround and cut it up to manageable sizes and throw away the corners.
> 
> I'm wondering if you make a patch like that can they come back on you saying it leaked and you need to buy them a new living room ceiling. I always leave it open and tell them to hire a tile guy to protect my a$$.



if its tile I do my own tile work, after paying a tile guy, also a friend and having to make a 2nd trip back to trim it out I said WTF I can just invest in the tile cutters and tools and do tile patches myself, it was the best thing ever, and the best seller, telling the people I do it all and no waiting for tile guy to show up...like any other repair you take the risk of leaks..if its some $hit house I have them sign the contract that plastic patch is only temporary and not meant to be permanent , when I do a tile patch for $$ its permanent..


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I know how to tile but do I really want to? They probably expect a very low price and what about running around to find a tile that closely match.

Last problem usually the tile guy who originally did it was a half a$$sed, no waterproof membrane or tile on drywall etc .


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> I know how to tile but do I really want to? They probably expect a very low price and what about running around to find a tile that closely match.
> 
> Last problem usually the tile guy who originally did it was a half a$$sed, no waterproof membrane or tile on drywall etc .



I made alot more $$ doing my own tile patches...before I break out the tiles I tell the people it wont match, either ill do a contrasting color in a square that looks good or some other shape thats agreed and signed on..never had an issue and I did many dozens of them..


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

I gotta know, why is the tub spout so high? Did you run out of copper?


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## HonestPlumb (Jan 25, 2015)

I guess there is no anti scold device required, where that job is ?


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I made alot more $$ doing my own tile patches...before I break out the tiles I tell the people it wont match, either ill do a contrasting color in a square that looks good or some other shape thats agreed and signed on..never had an issue and I did many dozens of them..


Do you still charge the same rate for tiling? 

Can you tile and grout in the same visit?

How long does it take to find a tile and make a patch like in this situation?

How about this one, what would you do, behind the tile is moldy and saturated wet drywall. Would you tell them drywall or concrete/shluter/kerdi and a 12x12 tile patch or take a good portion of that side of the wall where the faucet is and redo it with concrete/membrane backer board and retile?

https://www.plumbingzone.com/f7/adventures-soap-opera-80969/index42/#post1193082


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Debo22 said:


> I gotta know, why is the tub spout so high? Did you run out of copper?




Well, I asked him how high he wanted it and that is what he came up with... Something about wanting to move the tub out of the room some day to install vinyl flooring... and he wanted plenty of room... ok with me

Maybe he wanted to wash the dogs in the tub too........

I suppose I could have installed a pressure balanced single handle tub and 
shower faucet on the wall in this place but it was on a well with very low pressure so I was worried the PB faucet would give me future troubles.....

once he gets those 2x10s and walls all painted white and prettied up, 
it will be fine....


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> Do you still charge the same rate for tiling?
> 
> Can you tile and grout in the same visit?
> 
> ...





I gave up with fooling around on tile work a long time ago... its not cost effective and it can kill more time than you think dealing with the details.....
lf the walls are about to fall down because they are all wet then you got a mess on your hands that should only be tackled if you have absolutely nothing else to do this week 



we attempted to do a restroom one time and got into a pissing match with the little Italian who owned the place about the tile matching,, he pitched a fit and claimed our tile did not match, he berated his daughter who hired us and then he got his own tile guy to do the tile work and expected a discount for the tile work..... The only tile in town from the same store, and the same exact tile but he would not admit it...

After about a 3 week delay, which somehow was our fault, When it was all done I just had to put a knot in his tail by setting the tile I had bought up against the tile guys finished job and came and looked at it and said that was all just perfect... perfect... 

Then I told him this was my tile and did he want to keep it for future repairs?? You could see him about implode in front of me...... he was a little Italian jerk and making a fool out of him was well worth it...... I finally got paid, and we never stepped foot in that building again...
I am half Italian so I deal with them often.....many good ones and a few dicks on occasion 



also, tile guys are a pain in the ass ,


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> Do you still charge the same rate for tiling?
> 
> Can you tile and grout in the same visit?
> 
> ...



I charge one price for all if they agree before I start, I dont break down pricing into what is for what, this is the price if you want it done I do it, if they dont want the tile patch then I dont price it in, if they play games after the price is given for the whole job and then say they dont want the tile work then of course I deduct less than what I figured, thats just how I do it for those type people...
as always I have in the contract if the wall is open and there are other problems( like in your case mold) MORE MONEY will be charged....when a problem is found I stop and show the people and give a price to fix it, 99% of the time the people agree on the extra repair( new work order/contract written and signed before going forward), for the 1% that dont I have them sign for the problem and issues I found and what I recommend and they refuse to fix the issue and all issues or problems that arise from it they hold harmless the plumber .... 

the job you have I would remove enough tiles to clean out the mold and spray with whatever mold killing sprays are out there and then re tile, if I cant match the tiles I will offer to use a neutral color that looks decent in a pattern that is as even as it can be done to balance out the design , most times I tell how many tiles are needed and if the customer wants to match up and get the tiles even better, most of the time when I supply the tiles its a solid ( normal color) like white, or an existing color where white tile looks nice, anything more than that the people usually get the tile..
then ill use dura rock( cement board) to patch and then tile..
I will tile and grout and then have a snack to allow the grout to set, sponge clean and set the trim, most of the time I can be in and out in 1 day, if not because of how the patch part went, ill make a 2nd trip...
everyones been happy that they dont have to wait and take another day off or make arrangements for multiple days for me to work, and if I used a tile guy 80% of the time I had to make a 2nd trip to trim out and that would be anywhere from a few days to a week depending on his schedule.
so the extra $$ charged for doing the tile and me doing the tile was a win win in the end...at least for me..
now if the whole wall or room needs new tile, thats not me , now were talking bathroom renovation..and ill pass it along to one of the contractors I work with for a finders fee and I get the plumbing part out of it..


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Thanks Mark and ShtRnsdownhill, very useful information on both sides of the coin.

:vs_clap::vs_clap::vs_clap:


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> Thanks Mark and ShtRnsdownhill, very useful information on both sides of the coin.
> 
> :vs_clap::vs_clap::vs_clap:



look at it this way..if you can offer tile patch it makes you worth more and is a BIG selling point..if you so busy you dont have time for it then thats great too, but it gives you a common area to make money, we deal with tile all the time and being able to offer repairs just goes hand in hand with plumbing...people love one stop shopping...


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

I Learned early on in my plumbing career to patch Drywall,Stucco,
Concrete, and Asphalt, but never tile, except for Moen repair plate,

until I met up with a partner in L.A. that was a Gen. Building Contractor
who took over handling that :biggrin:


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> look at it this way..if you can offer tile patch it makes you worth more and is a BIG selling point..if you so busy you dont have time for it then thats great too, but it gives you a common area to make money, we deal with tile all the time and being able to offer repairs just goes hand in hand with plumbing...people love one stop shopping...




I know that all too well. I know what you mean. On the flip side;

I also see a lot of people wanting one stop shop and hire a one man GC to scrap the reno or the guy who say _"who can do it all"._


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> I know that all too well. I know what you mean. On the flip side;
> 
> I also see a lot of people wanting one stop shop and hire a one man GC to scrap the reno or the guy who say _"who can do it all"._



This one stop shopping is a great idea but you got to be either slower than hell to desire to get tied up into a tile job all week long 

or you got to have a crew of VERY DEPENDABLE people to fly through the job fast....

if you have the crew, then that also comes with its problems...

My dad was a tileing fool and would demo a bathroom with a helper and
then do the whole job by themselves....in a few days and up to a week...
The kid who went with him learned a lot , and it worked out ok for a number of years.... 

I wont do it now because no one is trustworthy to be left on a bathroom remodel by themselves so I have dropped it all.....

80 % of all employees suck and wont show up when you need them so I cant fly into someones bathroom and have a bunch of losers not showing up once I start something..... aint gonna do it:biggrin:


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> This one stop shopping is a great idea but you got to be either slower than hell to desire to get tied up into a tile job all week long
> 
> or you got to have a crew of VERY DEPENDABLE people to fly through the job fast....
> 
> ...



I'm not going to do tile, too much labor intensive and they'll want it real cheap. I'm set up for plumbing and that's all I'll do. I'm glad I don't have too many calls right now, I got 2 jobs today and I'm tired. Taxes tomorrow, I've been at it for 4 full days and I only have about 60% done.

I know about employees I used to be one and I saw my coworkers, very few of them I would hire. I saw the bad side of people so 80% is about right. Never will I have employees, I don't want a full time job and I think I'd have double the paperwork involved in our system that has a complex set of rules ! I would need a secretary just to fill out the paperwork and many entities to pay.


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

Tango said:


> I know about employees I used to be one and I saw my coworkers, very few of them I would hire. I saw the bad side of people so 80% is about right.


I don't yet have my own shop but exactly for the reason you mention, I want one as soon as I can. Of the people I have worked with there are only 3 I would hire if I was to ever have employees. The one who thought me in the beginning at the tech school and the 2 bosses I have had. Everyone else gives me headaches to work with. Either they are dumb and lazy or they are full of themselves. 

We have an apprentice that has no business doing plumbing but the boss keeps him on. We have a very experiences guy who knows his stuff but neither can nor will teach anyone anything, he won't even respond back when I say good morning and that's a normal for him so it's not just me, he also has not put the darn propress back at the sho for almost a month now, not even overnight or the weekends. I know and understand why my boss would not fire him but I personally could not handle having employees like that. 

I think the only ones I would ever like to hire are those who has a similar mentality as me and there for likely own their own business.

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

The Dane said:


> I don't yet have my own shop but exactly for the reason you mention, I want one as soon as I can. Of the people I have worked with there are only 3 I would hire if I was to ever have employees. The one who thought me in the beginning at the tech school and the 2 bosses I have had. Everyone else gives me headaches to work with. Either they are dumb and lazy or they are full of themselves.
> 
> We have an apprentice that has no business doing plumbing but the boss keeps him on. We have a very experiences guy who knows his stuff but neither can nor will teach anyone anything, he won't even respond back when I say good morning and that's a normal for him so it's not just me, he also has not put the darn propress back at the sho for almost a month now, not even overnight or the weekends. I know and understand why my boss would not fire him but I personally could not handle having employees like that.
> 
> ...


Then do like us the guys here, one man shop. If you are not in pursuit of becoming rich then this is a good place to be. I no longer set my alarm in the morning. Just think about it, how in the world would I supply an employee with all the tools I have in my truck to be top notch like I am? I have all the cool tools I ever imagined and dreamed of to make my life so much better. They would get lost, broken or stolen, the result bad service and I would take it upon me to fix his mistakes.

I have complete quality control. No babysitting and last but not least I don't have that volume of calls anyway.


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## The Dane (Feb 19, 2015)

Tango said:


> Then do like us the guys here, one man shop. If you are not in pursuit of becoming rich then this is a good place to be. I no longer set my alarm in the morning. Just think about it, how in the world would I supply an employee with all the tools I have in my truck to be top notch like I am? I have all the cool tools I ever imagined and dreamed of to make my life so much better. They would get lost, broken or stolen, the result bad service and I would take it upon me to fix his mistakes.
> 
> 
> 
> I have complete quality control. No babysitting and last but not least I don't have that volume of calls anyway.


That's what I'm planning to do. I know some people say you need 10 years before you should start your own company but I'm going out on my own more or less as soon as I can depending on a few things. I simply can't do it until earliest a year from now. My boss has 2 times before loosely talked to me suggesting I one day buy in to the company some day because he is not too many years away from retiring. I have kind of just shrugged it off telling him I had not yet given any serious thought to ever owning a business. The truth is that I don't like the way he runs the business and out of the 4 other full-time employees and a part time guy I would fire 1 and insist on a change of attitude from another resulting in him quitting no doubt and I would not be too happy with the third but still keep him so in the end I would have half the guys and a complete restructuring of the company so why even bother.

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

The Dane said:


> That's what I'm planning to do. I know some people say you need 10 years before you should start your own company but I'm going out on my own more or less as soon as I can depending on a few things. I simply can't do it until earliest a year from now. My boss has 2 times before loosely talked to me suggesting I one day buy in to the company some day because he is not too many years away from retiring. I have kind of just shrugged it off telling him I had not yet given any serious thought to ever owning a business. The truth is that I don't like the way he runs the business and out of the 4 other full-time employees and a part time guy I would fire 1 and insist on a change of attitude from another resulting in him quitting no doubt and I would not be too happy with the third but still keep him so in the end I would have half the guys and a complete restructuring of the company so why even bother.
> 
> Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk


If you don't want to invest money just yet but you want to prepare in advance, start finding the books you need to study and study them, make it a discipline. Find out if there are schools you can attend in the evenings and week-ends. 

I went that route (3 course/3 exams-- Plans/specs, employee safety& regulations, administration) and doing their school exams exempted me from doing the government exams. However the school exams were 300% harder than the government. No multiple choice, all development questions. We were allowed a single page note sheet, it took me 3 weeks to write in fine print to have notes on. Even with that my score was average.

The 3rd course and exam (administration) was placed last after the GC course and I would of had to wait almost 2 months in between because I didn't need it. I didn't want to miss out working in the summer as I would of gotten my contractor licence in September. I was also broke and waiting another 4 months I would of been bankrupt. I quit their school, I scheduled for the government exams. While I was waiting for the exam date I found a book to prepare for admin and studied my codes for plumbing. I studied 5-6 hours a day. I set up a folding table at the throne to study so I wouldn't waste time!

I did both the admin exam and master plumber exam the same day(In the same building). I got my contractor licence 3 days before the admin course started!


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> If you don't want to invest money just yet but you want to prepare in advance, start finding the books you need to study and study them, make it a discipline. Find out if there are schools you can attend in the evenings and week-ends.
> 
> I went that route (3 course/3 exams-- Plans/specs, employee safety& regulations, administration) and doing their school exams exempted me from doing the government exams. However the school exams were 300% harder than the government. No multiple choice, all development questions. We were allowed a single page note sheet, it took me 3 weeks to write in fine print to have notes on. Even with that my score was average.
> 
> ...



you need all that crap to start a business?..here I started with a plumbing license and incorporated and done, im in business...


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> you need all that crap to start a business?..here I started with a plumbing license and incorporated and done, im in business...


That's the biggest part of it but there's much much more.

I posted the details before and if you want I'll post a link but after all that I found out all that I said in the thread depends if you do private residential or anything that involves a revenue like apartments and commercial or new construction.

Laws and rules here are complicated. So if you do anything related to apartments or commercial, you have to pay more entities, more thousands of dollars and abide to the R-20 law...I live between 2 provinces so more rules, 2 company names etc.



So in a nutshell for a specialized trade not GC, I may forget details there's so much!

3 exams (like I stated previously) Mucho money to attend school, thousands and thousands. Or try your luck without school and fail. 6 months to retry, if you fail twice or trice If I'm not mistaking you are banned forever.

Register a company name 34$ 
Register corporate or individual.
Pay the ministry 1100$ BEFORE you try those exams
Pay the Pipe Mechanics association 1100$ to be a member.
Pay a bond.
Pay for the master plumber exam in advance(I forget how much but over 100$). Once you've proven you have passed the 3 exams, no criminal record and you have a registered name and you are a valid company they allow you to try the Master plumber exam. I say again only when you proved everything else is legit and paid for! They find out you have a criminal record or other hickup, tough luck you paid for nothing!


Now this year or next year you'll need to prove you have insurance(Another 1000$, 2000$ and up) too before trying the Masters. It was really hard for me to get some. They pretty much all said I needed to be in business 10 years before they let you have insurance with them. Talk about stupid. Only my group insurance company that I kept from my clerk days for my mortgage and car offered by the hardware store allowed me to have business insurance with them!! My insurance isn't great or specialized for plumbing so luckily I will get a proposition in the next few months from another insurance through the association.


Those fees are annual and I get ticked off when people complain a plumber is expensive, if they only knew. I did a little digging and I think I have way more education and licensing fees than a lawyer.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

..........................


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

The Dane said:


> I don't yet have my own shop but exactly for the reason you mention, I want one as soon as I can. Of the people I have worked with there are only 3 I would hire if I was to ever have employees. The one who thought me in the beginning at the tech school and the 2 bosses I have had. Everyone else gives me headaches to work with. Either they are dumb and lazy or they are full of themselves.
> 
> We have an apprentice that has no business doing plumbing but the boss keeps him on. We have a very experiences guy who knows his stuff but neither can nor will teach anyone anything, he won't even respond back when I say good morning and that's a normal for him so it's not just me, he also has not put the darn propress back at the sho for almost a month now, not even overnight or the weekends. I know and understand why my boss would not fire him but I personally could not handle having employees like that.
> 
> ...



I just thought of something related to employees. I've had 3 calls and 3-4 other guys who knocked on my door who were looking for a job. I wasn't impressed one bit.

2 calls sounded terrible, something like "Are you looking for someone", that was their extent of vocabulary. Never! Then I got a father calling for his son who just finished plumbing school. I was thinking he can't call himself?

I had a walk in with a resume, another fresh out of school, I tried to give him pointers but he wanted to go, well too bad he would of had a ton of knowledge. The other 2-3 walk in had what looked like a resume in hand but I didn't answer the door, first I'm not looking for help and the biggest factor I knew by their looks they would of been disqualified.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> I just thought of something related to employees. I've had 3 calls and 3-4 other guys who knocked on my door who were looking for a job. I wasn't impressed one bit.
> 
> 2 calls sounded terrible, something like "Are you looking for someone", that was their extent of vocabulary. Never! Then I got a father calling for his son who just finished plumbing school. I was thinking he can't call himself?
> 
> I had a walk in with a resume, another fresh out of school, I tried to give him pointers but he wanted to go, well too bad he would of had a ton of knowledge. The other 2-3 walk in had what looked like a resume in hand but I didn't answer the door, first I'm not looking for help and the biggest factor I knew by their looks they would of been disqualified.



*If you can get by without them you are gonna save yourself a lot of misery

the first thing they all will ask you is---- so when is pay day?? That tells you all you need to know.. or when will I get my own truck to drive... or do you have medical benefits??? _laugh::vs_laugh:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I got my stickers today sent to me.... had 15,000 made up for 585.00 

They sent me the same order 2 weeks ago but made a mistake with them and forgot to laminate them ... so they told me to just keep them and they made up another batch of them correctly and they arrived today

The bad ones are basically ok but not good in situations where they might get wet from moisture.... 

So now I got 30,000 stickers which should last me until 2050....:vs_laugh::vs_laugh: 

I am Gonna hand them out like candy
*

https://photos.app.goo.gl/5GV6qx1z4Pv5muof9

>>>


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> *
> 
> So now I got 30,000 stickers which should last me until 2050....:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:
> 
> ...


Wow those are big stickers! Where do you put them under the sink?

And me putting 3 of them in some residences at 50 cents each ouch! They don't all deserve to get a sticker though. I don't put them on water heaters or they just might call me and without the stair cat I won't do them.

I see other companies sticker and I put mine on top but seriously I think it's useless. They don't even call them in the first place when they see a leak under the kitchen sink and the competition sticker is 4 inches away from their face.

On the other hand it's a good thing they ignore the competition sticker do a search on the internet and call me instead!


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> *If you can get by without them you are gonna save yourself a lot of misery
> 
> the first thing they all will ask you is---- so when is pay day?? That tells you all you need to know.. or when will I get my own truck to drive... or do you have medical benefits??? _laugh::vs_laugh:
> 
> *


*

Employees never! I don't feel any burden at the moment, I feel free. Getting employees I would now have a job slaving away.

Anyways I still think I won't get super busy to the point I need to hire. I'm already on page one on google and often in the 3 pack and also on google maps. Plus I've got top score and the average is still the same amount of jobs a week. Well maybe a little more busy since I wasn't on page one all year.

That's okay I don't want to work full time and have to do the paperwork in the evening.*


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> Wow those are big stickers! Where do you put them under the sink?
> 
> And me putting 3 of them in some residences at 50 cents each ouch! They don't all deserve to get a sticker though. I don't put them on water heaters or they just might call me and without the stair cat I won't do them.
> 
> ...



I paid 585 for 15k of them ....it works out to under 4 cents each which is just chicken feed to me.... usually throw at least 3 of them in every house... they fit perfectly on the disposal.... heater and furnace or water softener...

good visibility is the key to this gig.... 

longevity is also required ---they got to last and not get peeled off.... 

and they got to be too big for someone to throw their wimpy small sticker
over mine..... 
but my sticker wipes them out when I cover theirs up....:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> ..........................


Good luck with that.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Master Mark said:


> I paid 585 for 15k of them ....it works out to under 4 cents each which is just chicken feed to me.... usually throw at least 3 of them in every house... they fit perfectly on the disposal.... heater and furnace or water softener...
> 
> good visibility is the key to this gig....
> 
> ...


you should print up stickers just for putting on water filters with a few blank lined areas to put the date you changed out the filter, so anytime the person checks the water filter they see your sticker and when they or you change the filter you can put the new date on it and the people see its current and not some old sticker from way back when..the same sticker on water heaters so people know to drain the crap out of the bottom...


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> you should print up stickers just for putting on water filters with a few blank lined areas to put the date you changed out the filter, so anytime the person checks the water filter they see your sticker and when they or you change the filter you can put the new date on it and the people see its current and not some old sticker from way back when..the same sticker on water heaters so people know to drain the crap out of the bottom...




Lots of guys have done that with a much larger sticker around here,,, they write the date it was installed and when it was serviced last....I see them all the time.....

I dont have the time for that much detail, and it does not seem to matter much,,,, if they see you have high marks on google then they seem to ignore who originally installed the fixture,,,... if you have that and a sticker on the heater going for you it seems to usually be a home run....


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## HonestPlumb (Jan 25, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> ShtRnsdownhill said:
> 
> 
> > you should print up stickers just for putting on water filters with a few blank lined areas to put the date you changed out the filter, so anytime the person checks the water filter they see your sticker and when they or you change the filter you can put the new date on it and the people see its current and not some old sticker from way back when..the same sticker on water heaters so people know to drain the crap out of the bottom...
> ...


I have had many customers that I installed Battery Back Up Sump Pumps, that never paid any attention to the invoice explaining proper maintenance and testing procedures.
I drew up Detailed step by step testing procedures and taking the battery to be recharged every year or replaced every 3-5 years, for back up and primary pumps. Then a separate sheet of initial installation of pump and battery, with lines below for future testing of the last date it was done. Including the recharging, or replacement of the Marine battery. Attach them to a 1/2" X 2' square plywood, covered with a sheet of plastic, and mounted on the wall next to the sump pit. I realize it is as bit of "overkill", but the customers appreciate it. It is all figured into the price. They realize the importance, and piece of mind of having a working back up pump, when there are flooding rains and power is lost. When it has happened and the battery lasted for 10 minutes, or is completely dead.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> I dont know about the other stuff tuscanny puts out, and you might be totally right about it all being junk..
> We have had to find a faucet that was better than just a sayco brand and we found this one to be pretty good.... I found the Moen 2 handle faucets to SUCK....
> 
> 
> ...


Mark,if I have to furnish a 2 or 3 handle faucet I only use the central brass with ceramic disk stems,they seem to last forever and you can get them in sweat and threaded,never had a problem with them


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> Mark,if I have to furnish a 2 or 3 handle faucet I only use the central brass with ceramic disk stems,they seem to last forever and you can get them in sweat and threaded,never had a problem with them



Thats good to know,,, 

so central brass makes some decent stuff now days??

most of the things made in central brass that I have seen or run across in the past have been absolute 100% junk....

.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> Thats good to know,,,
> 
> so central brass makes some decent stuff now days??
> 
> ...


Yes very good but be sure to get the ceramic disk stems,if you get the compression ones they won’t last 6 months but ceramic disk last forever and another thing I love about them is they have a long threaded eschution that holds faucet to wall,that junky moen you were talking about has eschutions that just slip on and don’t hold ****


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Tango said:


> Amazing, thanks for posting these. The ridgid cutter looks new compared to the rest of the bathroom.
> 
> There's a reason the spout is so high, I just wonder why? He actually had money to pay you, he got an inheritance and decided to splurge? :vs_laugh:
> 
> ...


You need better sources , it is more along the lines of 0.04 percent of Americans don't have a toilet in their home.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

justme said:


> You need better sources , it is more along the lines of 0.04 percent of Americans don't have a toilet in their home.


Well... everything that is written on the internet is true so....I rest my case. :wink::wink:


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## MASTRPLUMB (Mar 22, 2019)

#57 spam !


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

MASTRPLUMB said:


> #57 spam !


Another termination! Thanks for the heads up.

Why don't you use your regular account?


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Tango said:


> Well... everything that is written on the internet is true so....I rest my case. :wink::wink:


Don't rest your case , get better sources. We Americans aren't Canadian , we actually have indoor plumbing down here.


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## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

It's okay indoor plumbing is overated
.. cesspits are way more efficient


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