# 6" copper question



## wharfrat (Nov 1, 2014)

I have worked with plenty of 4" copper but never touched 6". Customer needs pvc replaced and wants copper.

Pipe serves a cooling tower. Is soldering 6" recommended or does it need to be brazed? Any advice would help.


----------



## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

What fluid pressure are you dealing with?


----------



## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

Braze!
I have solder plenty of 6"(spec out by engineers) and it is a headache.

Brazing is much more efficient and less likely to leak. You will need a k bottle of oxygen and an A4 acetylene tank. Plus a #8 rose bud.

Get her cherry red and keep the tip 8" off the joint. You can and will melt a fitting so keep the heat moving.


----------



## Gunnar (Jan 5, 2014)

Is grooved copper option? Would save a lot of labour


----------



## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

If brazing isn't an option it can be soldered. Make sure you tin it first and if possible have two torches going so you can keep the entire joint hot. 6" will cold crack very easily.


----------



## wharfrat (Nov 1, 2014)

Plumbus said:


> What fluid pressure are you dealing with?


I don't know the pressure. 

This one is out of my comfort zone/ability. Going to bring in a hired gun this time and hopefully learn a few things as his helper.

Thanks all for the input.


----------



## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

While brazing seems to be the better solution it's not. Solder it with silver Bering solder is stronger. I didn't think it was either until you take into consideration that it anneals the fitting and it will crack in the throat of the 90. The larger the fitting the more force the water has. The most cost efficient method would be grooving it or welded steel.


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

why cant you use the same groove steel pipe and fittings you would use on a fire sprinkler system? at that size pipe a mechanical fitting makes more sense that any solder or braze, especially for future repairs or modifications..and like stated before heating copper to cherry red hardens the copper and makes it brittle..


----------



## Gunnar (Jan 5, 2014)

We do a lot of towers and chillers at our shop and never copper...always schedule 40 Vic or welded.


----------



## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

The first fitting I soldered on a job was 6" copper.


----------



## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

Fellas please.
Brazing is the only way to go.


----------



## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Fatpat said:


> Fellas please. Brazing is the only way to go.


 brazing weakens the fitting. On a line with that much flow you would get enough movement to crack the fitting on the inside of the throat of the fitting. Cost would be another factor.


----------



## pdxplumber (Nov 21, 2009)

Are they making 6" Shark bites yet?


----------



## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

I would setup a meeting with submittal sheets and new couplings/fittings in hand to persuade them to go with grooved fittings.
If that is not possible, soldering is fine. I soldered a bunch of 6" flanges not too long ago.
Take Wyrick's advice and do as much pre fab as possible in your shop.


----------



## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

Turbo Torch used to make a set up that had 2 #6 heads at a 180 deg angles,it allowed you to get even heat on both sides of the fitting at the same time,don't think they make them anymore.did 6" mains in an apartment bldg. once and it was all tinned/soldered with propane and the above mentioned double tip.


----------



## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

6"requires sufficient gas and a correct tip. And patience as you bring a larger area up to the proper heat. Then it's the same as soldering 1".


----------



## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

dhal22 said:


> 6"requires sufficient gas and a correct tip. And patience as you bring a larger area up to the proper heat. Then it's the same as soldering 1".


 it is a lot different than 1 in. Gravity will effect how and when you heat an area. It takes great patience best to stack it from the bottom up one side at a time.


----------



## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

I preheat all large joints. Now you have solder filling in like it's a 1 or 3/4" pipe. But you need heat control. 
If gravity is causing your solder to run excessively, check your heat. You may have overheated your joint. Back your heat down and fill in the joint with minimal solder run. Then back your heat down some more and cap the solder. 

The instant the cap freezes grab your flux infested towel and polish the joint. Then grab a clean towel and polish the flux away. Now it looks like a new penny, except for the rough cap. Turn your heat down much more then smooth the cap. Polish it 1 more time and you have a nice joint. Ideally you have zero solder run down the pipe.


----------



## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

dhal22 said:


> I preheat all large joints. Now you have solder filling in like it's a 1 or 3/4" pipe. But you need heat control. If gravity is causing your solder to run excessively, check your heat. You may have overheated your joint. Back your heat down and fill in the joint with minimal solder run. Then back your heat down some more and cap the solder. The instant the cap freezes grab your flux infested towel and polish the joint. Then grab a clean towel and polish the flux away. Now it looks like a new penny, except for the rough cap. Turn your heat down much more then smooth the cap. Polish it 1 more time and you have a nice joint. Ideally you have zero solder run down the pipe.


 I hate to disagree but 6 in solder joint is nothing like 1 or 3/4. You work it from the bottom to the top one side at a time. Gravity effects the solder while in liquid form and you will end up using a roll per fitting. Keeping the joint full until it solidify so is important and a lack of heat is the main reason for leaks. I have done a lot of 4 and 6 and never had a problem. I have went behind and fixed a lot of others and lack of heat was the main problem.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Another vote for brazing. I'd use and industrial oxy/acetylene torch rig and silfos brazing rods.


----------



## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

wyrickmech said:


> I hate to disagree but 6 in solder joint is nothing like 1 or 3/4. You work it from the bottom to the top one side at a time. Gravity effects the solder while in liquid form and you will end up using a roll per fitting. Keeping the joint full until it solidify so is important and a lack of heat is the main reason for leaks. I have done a lot of 4 and 6 and never had a problem. I have went behind and fixed a lot of others and lack of heat was the main problem.


A torch size relative to the pipe size can pretty much make soldering 1" and 6" similar. My 6" pipe experience has never suffered from lack of heat. I've always used an oxygen/acetylene rig. A oxygen/acetylene rosebud torch combo can warm up a 6" pipe in a few seconds. It can heat a joint to where you can solder the entire fitting at once. If you use a smaller torch, then yes you have to work your way around the fitting.

Leave a rosebud in 1 area too long and you will melt the pipe. I have soldered 8" as well but only a few joints.


----------



## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

dhal22 said:


> wyrickmech said:
> 
> 
> > I hate to disagree but 6 in solder joint is nothing like 1 or 3/4. You work it from the bottom to the top one side at a time. Gravity effects the solder while in liquid form and you will end up using a roll per fitting. Keeping the joint full until it solidify so is important and a lack of heat is the main reason for leaks. I have done a lot of 4 and 6 and never had a problem. I have went behind and fixed a lot of others and lack of heat was the main problem.
> ...




Agreed. Rosebud is the only way I would go at 6", braze or solder. When brazing 6", two rosebuds with two operators is ideal.


----------



## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

rwh said:


> Agreed. Rosebud is the only way I would go at 6", braze or solder. When brazing 6", two rosebuds with two operators is ideal.


 the trick is you can only feed solder in so fast off of a standard roll so having the whole joint hot only sets your self up for burning the flux then you are screwed. There is no need for a rosebud tip when soldering 6 in.


----------



## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

wyrickmech said:


> rwh said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed. Rosebud is the only way I would go at 6", braze or solder. When brazing 6", two rosebuds with two operators is ideal.
> ...



They make many size rosebuds. If no using rosebud, I guess I will take the biggest turbo torch tip I can get. About the size of a 20 gauge shotgun shell. That would be soft solder. Braze still want rosebud.


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

rwh said:


> They make many size rosebuds. If no using rosebud, I guess I will take the biggest turbo torch tip I can get. About the size of a 20 gauge shotgun shell. That would be soft solder. Braze still want rosebud.


whatever size tip on turbo or rosebud, you have to size the acetylene tank to the tip, if you draw the gas out too quick you will pull out the acetone and also cause the right properties for an explosion...thats why many are changing to propane/oxygen......how much solder would you use in a 6 inch solder joint? at almost $20.00 a pound for solder and $70.00 plus for braze, and all the time to make the joint and not having the ability to tweak it once done, mechanical fittings are the way togo...


----------



## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

I haven't soldered 6" in years but with the right size rose bud and correct heating it solders just fine but Victaulic joints are the way to go.


----------



## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

wyrickmech said:


> the trick is you can only feed solder in so fast off of a standard roll so having the whole joint hot only sets your self up for burning the flux then you are screwed. There is no need for a rosebud tip when soldering 6 in.


My pinky finger has pulled miles and miles of solder from a roll. It comes off the roll as fast as I need it. And rose bid tips come in different sizes. And you don't have to have gas flow wfo all the time. What am I doing wrong when I bring the fitting up to heat slowly and the solder flows around evenly?


----------



## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

dhal22 said:


> wyrickmech said:
> 
> 
> > the trick is you can only feed solder in so fast off of a standard roll so having the whole joint hot only sets your self up for burning the flux then you are screwed. There is no need for a rosebud tip when soldering 6 in.
> ...



You are doing nothing wrong. The acetylene "coming out too fast" is B.S. That is why a regulator is part of the set up. To the original Porter's question, welded steel pipe would be economical and as bulletproof as it gets.


----------



## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

rwh said:


> You are doing nothing wrong. The acetylene "coming out too fast" is B.S. That is why a regulator is part of the set up. To the original Porter's question, welded steel pipe would be economical and as bulletproof as it gets.


 again there is no need to heat the whole fitting to temp walk your way around the fitting. You can only keep a section hot enough at a time. Pipe will absorb the heat.


----------



## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

wyrickmech said:


> rwh said:
> 
> 
> > You are doing nothing wrong. The acetylene "coming out too fast" is B.S. That is why a regulator is part of the set up. To the original Porter's question, welded steel pipe would be economical and as bulletproof as it gets.
> ...



No sh#t. No one ever said to heat the whole fitting at once


----------



## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

rwh said:


> No sh#t. No one ever said to heat the whole fitting at once


 ok now that we are listening the statement that started this debate was that it was the same as soldering a 3/4 or 1 in fitting. Heat the whole thing and let the solder fly. It is nothing like smaller fittings. In fact there is slight differences in the styles and patterns between the sizes. For instance the way you solder 3/4 is totally different from 2 in as much as 2 in is totally different from 3 or 4. 6 in is a different technique by itself.


----------

