# City Ordinance Help



## brokenokie (Mar 2, 2012)

This is a city ordinance from a local municipality amending the 2006 International Plumbing Code. I need some help interpreting it please?!!!


"*Table 605.3 Water Service Pipe-Amendatory.* Table 605.4 is amended to provide that copper or copper alloy pipe and tubing (Type M) _American Society for Testing and Materials International_ (ASTM) Standard Reference Number B42, ASTM B302, ASTM B75, ASTM B88, ASTM B251 and ASTM B447 are not permitted underground; galvanized steel pipe ASTM A53 is not permitted underground; and polyvinyl chloride (PVC) plastic pipe ASTM D2241 and ASTM D2672, in pipe sizes up to and including four (4) inches in diameter, are not permitted. "

Can ANYONE explain this to me? I guess Im a little confused as to what this is saying. Is this telling me that copper is not allowed for underground water service in this municipality? Or is it just Type M? I was under the impression that the ASTM number specified a certain type of copper. is this not the case? Also the same question for PVC. Is it saying its not allowed as well? It basically covers every ASTM number that is allowed in the ICC for water service pertaining to copper and PVC.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

It says specifically type m, so type L or k would be allowed


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Which municipality?

I just talked with Bill Jackson in OKC and he said it wasn't them. Theirs is according to Table 605.3 verbatim.


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## brokenokie (Mar 2, 2012)

This came straight from the Tulsa City Ordinance


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Pretty straight forward to me. Let me ask you this, if you are in the plumbing related trade what is so hard to understand about the ordinance?


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## brokenokie (Mar 2, 2012)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> It says specifically type m, so type L or k would be allowed


 
Thats what I thought as well. BUT this ordinance specifically rules out every ASTM number that the ICC says is allowable according to Table 605. The ICC doesnt specify what of TYPE (K,L,M) of copper is allowable just certain ASTM numbers and this ordinance lists all of them as not permissible. I am just trying to figure out what their trying to say. And if it is the way I read it then I am then wondering why? Your statement definitely makes more sense that its just type M, but is Type M ASTM B44 different from Type L ASTM B44. If so its not specified in the ordinance or the International Code.


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

I also noticed your profile is blank. Any reason why?


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## swedishcharm21 (Oct 29, 2011)

brokenokie said:


> This is a city ordinance from a local municipality amending the 2006 International Plumbing Code. I need some help interpreting it please?!!!
> 
> 
> "*Table 605.3 Water Service Pipe-Amendatory.* Table 605.4 is amended to provide that copper or copper alloy pipe and tubing (Type M) _American Society for Testing and Materials International_ (ASTM) Standard Reference Number B42, ASTM B302, ASTM B75, ASTM B88, ASTM B251 and ASTM B447 are not permitted underground; galvanized steel pipe ASTM A53 is not permitted underground; and polyvinyl chloride (PVC) plastic pipe ASTM D2241 and ASTM D2672, in pipe sizes up to and including four (4) inches in diameter, are not permitted. "
> ...


Brokenokie- With all due respect, I doubt you are a plumber. Can you prove me wrong?


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## brokenokie (Mar 2, 2012)

Ok Bill, are you picking on me? This particular ordinance is for Tulsa for which I am not currently servicing. I'm just trying to figure it all out before I attempt to work in their city limits. Is that wrong? I'm sorry about my profile, I just signed up today! Is that a crime? Why did you even reply to this post if your not gonna help? Is this how you welcome new people? Jeesh!


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

brokenokie said:


> Ok Bill, are you picking on me? This particular ordinance is for Tulsa for which I am not currently servicing. I'm just trying to figure it all out before I attempt to work in their city limits. Is that wrong? I'm sorry about my profile, I just signed up today! Is that a crime? Why did you even reply to this post if your not gonna help? *Is this how you welcome new people? Jeesh![/QUOTE]*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## RealCraftsMan (Dec 27, 2011)

brokenokie said:


> Ya, I'll shove a rigid 750 up your ass and turn it on!


 
Ok you're a plumber!


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

brokenokie said:


> Ya, I'll shove a rigid 750 up your ass and turn it on!


 






Tsk tsk tsk; terrible temper will get the thread closed......:yes:

And this thread is yours. You are seeking an answer to your question, remember?


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## RealCraftsMan (Dec 27, 2011)

brokenokie said:


> Ok Bill, are you picking on me? This particular ordinance is for Tulsa for which I am not currently servicing. I'm just trying to figure it all out before I attempt to work in their city limits. Is that wrong? I'm sorry about my profile, I just signed up today! Is that a crime? Why did you even reply to this post if your not gonna help? Is this how you welcome new people? Jeesh!


 
Haha..Bill is the nice mod around these parts. Wait till you deal with the other unlevel sob mods!


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## brokenokie (Mar 2, 2012)

RealCraftsMan said:


> Ok you're a plumber!


THANK YOU! finally someone with brains and a little respect! For crying out loud, I'm a plumber just not a very bright one I guess. Lol


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## brokenokie (Mar 2, 2012)

Tommy plumber said:


> Tsk tsk tsk; terrible temper will get the thread closed......:yes:
> 
> And this thread is yours. You are seeking an answer to your question, remember?


Yeah your right! Just got carried away in the moment! Lol! Sorry!


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## swedishcharm21 (Oct 29, 2011)

brokenokie said:


> Ya, I'll shove a rigid 750 up your ass and turn it on!


Be careful now.


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## brokenokie (Mar 2, 2012)

swedishcharm21 said:


> Be careful now.


Sorry sir! That was out of line. I apologize. I am just looking for clarification from peers. I feel stupid enough asking, I just have a hard time when someone questions my credentials just cause I haven't filled out a stupid profile. Again I apologize.


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

brokenokie said:


> Sorry sir! That was out of line. I apologize. I am just looking for clarification from peers. I feel stupid enough asking, I just have a hard time when someone questions my credentials just cause I haven't filled out a stupid profile. Again I apologize.


What are you apologizing for?? Stand up for yourself!
We are all peers here and we dont need to refer to anyone as sir either.
You can call your boss sir if you want.
I dont think it was a stupid question, believe we have seen much stupider.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

NYC Plumber said:


> What are you apologizing for?? Stand up for yourself!
> We are all peers here and we dont need to refer to anyone as sir either.
> You can call your boss sir if you want.
> I dont think it was a stupid question, believe we have seen much stupider.


Dose the beveled edge of a poly trap washer go up or down ?


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## NYC Plumber (May 4, 2011)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Dose the beveled edge of a poly trap washer go up or down ?


Can go either way just apply silicone!


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

I would think the copper issue would be a non-issue. Since type "M" is not sold in coils you wouldn't be using it to run a water service anyway, or would you? No solder joints under ground, which would be necessary to connects pieces of "M". As far as the PVC, why not just run the black poly. Again, sold in coils, which means no joints underground.


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## brokenokie (Mar 2, 2012)

mccmech said:


> I would think the copper issue would be a non-issue. Since type "M" is not sold in coils you wouldn't be using it to run a water service anyway, or would you? No solder joints under ground, which would be necessary to connects pieces of "M". As far as the PVC, why not just run the black poly. Again, sold in coils, which means no joints underground.


No that is the WHOLE question. Does this pertain to just "M" copper? If so, why list every astm number pertaining to copper alloy and copper tubing? I was assuming that each astm number pertained to a certain type (K,L,M) of copper. For example if type "M" was represented by ASTM B42, and type "L" represented say ASTM B302 and so on. I guess that's my whole issue. Does each ASTM number represent different "types" of copper? Or does every "type" of copper conform to ALL of those ASTM numbers?


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

(Type M) was inserted so there would be no confusion:laughing::laughing:


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## brokenokie (Mar 2, 2012)

stillaround said:


> (Type M) was inserted so there would be no confusion:laughing::laughing:
> 
> I would say no sch 80 either pvc up to 4"


Yeah, I think it's just all the ASTM numbers that's adding confusion for me. That paragraph lists every ASTM standard for copper that the International code allows. I'm just probably reading more into it than I should. Thanks!


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

brokenokie said:


> Ok Bill, are you picking on me? This particular ordinance is for Tulsa for which I am not currently servicing. I'm just trying to figure it all out before I attempt to work in their city limits. Is that wrong? I'm sorry about my profile, I just signed up today! Is that a crime? Why did you even reply to this post if your not gonna help? Is this how you welcome new people? Jeesh!


I am certainly not. Like someone said, I am rather quiet and laid back. Your profile was left blank. You would be amazed at how many people come here asking questions and are not in the plumbing trade. Usually a proper intro, and a full profile helps others here relax. Once they are convinced you are one of us then everything is smooth sailing.

Think of it this way, if a total stranger comes in and starts asking you all kinds of questions would you give the answers away and lose money?

I dont think so.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

What's a Rigid 450? Guess that doesn't make me a plumber? cry..


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

OK, enough remarks for now. Lets give him a chance.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Never mind...its a 750 rodding machine... so am I off the hook?


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

A municipality banning the use of PVC and galvanized (as well as type M) underground is not a bad thing. Galvanized eventually rusts, and PVC is prone to breaks in the hard rocky soil that you guys have up there. I'm not sure how much that red dirt moves, but the gumbo we have in Texas spells disaster for PVC water lines. Keeps me busy fixing the breaks, that's or sure. 90% of the water services laid during the boom around here are PVC, and buried less than 18" deep. Easy money, and damn good job security

Sent from my iPhon


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

sikxsevn said:


> A municipality banning the use of PVC and galvanized (as well as type M) underground is not a bad thing. Galvanized eventually rusts, and PVC is prone to breaks in the hard rocky soil that you guys have up there. I'm not sure how much that red dirt moves, but the gumbo we have in Texas spells disaster for PVC water lines. Keeps me busy fixing the breaks, that's or sure. 90% of the water services laid during the boom around here are PVC, and buried less than 18" deep. Easy money, and damn good job security
> 
> Sent from my iPhon



Yep, just those Tulsa guys trying to ruin my business. Thank goodness for do it yourselfers. If they are going to be so picky about waterlines maybe they will start making plumbers put in the right amount of vents.


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## brokenokie (Mar 2, 2012)

Bill said:


> I am certainly not. Like someone said, I am rather quiet and laid back. Your profile was left blank. You would be amazed at how many people come here asking questions and are not in the plumbing trade. Usually a proper intro, and a full profile helps others here relax. Once they are convinced you are one of us then everything is smooth sailing.
> 
> Think of it this way, if a total stranger comes in and starts asking you all kinds of questions would you give the answers away and lose money?
> 
> I dont think so.


Ok Bill, I see your point. But heres my thing. I think alot of you got the impression that I was asking wether type m copper was able to be used here. And that was not my point. I was more concerned with the ASTM numbers and what they meant. I dont have specifications on what certain standards state and I was hoping someone could clarify that for me. Also, what kind of DIYer would even care what this ordinance says or what ASTM standards were. They would probably just put it in however they wanted. I definitely understand the concerns and your right I would not give away free advice to just anyone. But this is a Public Forum and is viewable by just about anyone who stumbles across it. So in a sense, I guess we all are guilty of giving away advice you know? I just wasn't prepared to be attacked when I signed up to this deal. I thought it was plumbers helping plumbers. With that being said, I did update my profile and your welcome to view it anytime. Heck if you want to message me, Ill even hook you up with my license number and you can check it out with the Oklahoma Construction Industries Board.


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## user7551 (Oct 21, 2011)

brokenokie said:


> Ok Bill, I see your point. But heres my thing. I think alot of you got the impression that I was asking wether type m copper was able to be used here. And that was not my point. I was more concerned with the ASTM numbers and what they meant. I dont have specifications on what certain standards state and I was hoping someone could clarify that for me. Also, what kind of DIYer would even care what this ordinance says or what ASTM standards were. They would probably just put it in however they wanted. I definitely understand the concerns and your right I would not give away free advice to just anyone. But this is a Public Forum and is viewable by just about anyone who stumbles across it. So in a sense, I guess we all are guilty of giving away advice you know? I just wasn't prepared to be attacked when I signed up to this deal. I thought it was plumbers helping plumbers. With that being said, I did update my profile and your welcome to view it anytime. Heck if you want to message me, Ill even hook you up with my license number and you can check it out with the Oklahoma Construction Industries Board.



All the mods are nice around here and understanding(they put up with me), that being said you got off easy compared to others lol . Don't take it personal. Bill is the good guy:yes:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

brokenokie said:


> ...I just wasn't prepared to be attacked when I signed up to this deal...


Specifically, you were not attacked. You were asked about your credentials. That is all..no more and no less. It was you that lost civility with the "shove a ridgid" comment.

Lighten up and enjoy the ride. One of the things you will hopefully learn to appreciate around here is the pummeling of non-Plumbing Professionals. It's all part of being in the Zone. Nobody had any malice or ill-intent toward you, especially Bill.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

brokenokie said:


> "*Table 605.3 Water Service Pipe-Amendatory. Table 605.4 is amended to provide that copper or copper alloy pipe and tubing (Type M) *_American Society for Testing and Materials International_ (ASTM) Standard Reference Number B42, ASTM B302, ASTM B75, ASTM B88, ASTM B251 and ASTM B447 *are not permitted underground; galvanized steel pipe *ASTM A53 *is not permitted underground; and polyvinyl chloride (PVC) plastic pipe ASTM D2241 and ASTM D2672, in pipe sizes up to and including four (4) inches in diameter, are not permitted. *"
> 
> Can ANYONE explain this to me?....


I have a theory on this.

No all inspectors actually have access to to the ASTM and ASME standards. Their offices are not all about staying on top of these code issues or they would not still be on the 2006 IPC.

I think the ASTM numbers were added for fluff by the author of the amendment because that is the format of codes written in the IPC book he lives by. It is just written to impress in my opinion. Why else would the writer feel the need to explain to the lowly reader what ASTM means?

The paragraph makes perfect sense when read without the referenced standards. 

I would call the Chief Plumbing Inspector in Tulsa and ask him to clarify the meaning. I have dealt with Tulsa inspectors a lot and they have always been a very accommodating and helpful crew.


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## brokenokie (Mar 2, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> I have a theory on this.
> 
> No all inspectors actually have access to to the ASTM and ASME standards. Their offices are not all about staying on top of these code issues or they would not still be on the 2006 IPC.
> 
> ...


Good theory! Thanks. I will call the inspection department just to see what's up. I was just wondering if anybody (besides me and the ICC) paid attention to the ASTM. I figured I was probably over reading it. I'll call next week just to make sure though. Thanks again!


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## brokenokie (Mar 2, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> Specifically, you were not attacked. You were asked about your credentials. That is all..no more and no less. It was you that lost civility with the "shove a ridgid" comment.
> 
> Lighten up and enjoy the ride. One of the things you will hopefully learn to appreciate around here is the pummeling of non-Plumbing Professionals. It's all part of being in the Zone. Nobody had any malice or ill-intent toward you, especially Bill.


Yeah I understand now that Bill explained to me in his previous post about the infiltration of non tradesman. I just got my vagina hurt. Lol. 

Thanks


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

RealCraftsMan said:


> Haha..Bill is the nice mod around these parts. Wait till you deal with the other unlevel sob mods!


There's a spoon around here somewhere with your name on it....


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Tommy plumber said:


> brokenokie said:
> 
> 
> > Ok Bill, are you picking on me? This particular ordinance is for Tulsa for which I am not currently servicing. I'm just trying to figure it all out before I attempt to work in their city limits. Is that wrong? I'm sorry about my profile, I just signed up today! Is that a crime? Why did you even reply to this post if your not gonna help? *Is this how you welcome new people? Jeesh![/QUOTE]*
> ...


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## brokenokie (Mar 2, 2012)

Yes you did! Thanks!


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