# "Plumbing Professionals"



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

This is a little bit of a take off from the questions regarding open forums. For those of you concerned with sharing trade secrets with non-plumbers, what's the difference between a non-plumber and a non-plumber drain cleaner? Do you find it more appropriated to share with one and not the other? If so why, if not why not?

Mark


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Do you see a difference between a person that works in the industry as opposed to a DIY'er?


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Shouldn't this be in the Off Topic section? Seems a bit offensive to the drain cleaners to who I hold a very high regard.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> Do you see a difference between a person that works in the industry as opposed to a DIY'er?


Yes but some use the term so loosely it become a giant category. As an example, I have a friend of thirty years who I met when he was working at a counter in a supply house. We've hunted and trained dogs together forever. He worked his way up through the ranks to run several different big supply houses. He went on to become a manufactures rep for some major manufacturers. Today he is the Western Regional Manager for a major Canadian manufacturer. He has invested well over thirty years in the industry. If any one is a Plumbing Professional it seems it would be him. Now on the other side, he has always done unlicensed work on the side. Eventually he and his wife opened a very successful flower shop where he did a bunch of unlicensed work. When they sold their flower shop they purchased a coin operated laundry mat. He does all of his own drain cleaning and plumbing there on his own. As a plumbing professional, would he be welcome to this site? 

Keep in mind, in many parts of the country, all it takes is a truck and a machine to be a drain cleaner. Still most drain cleaners have to do plumbing work to do drain cleaning. I believe in California they could get around it with the Handyman Exemption but I don't know about other States.

Mark


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

What's a non-plumber drain cleaner? Is there still such a thing as a drain cleaning license?


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Plumber said:


> Shouldn't this be in the Off Topic section? Seems a bit offensive to the drain cleaners to who I hold a very high regard.


My last post went into the Off Topic forum and was moved to the Help section. This is being addressed to licensed plumbers only. This is about the psyche of those worried about sharing trade secrets. If it needs to be moved I'm sure the moderator's will move it. If you are not a licensed plumber I apologize.

Mark


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

James420 said:


> What's a non-plumber drain cleaner? Is there still such a thing as a drain cleaning license?


My understanding is some areas still require some type of license to clean drains. However, I was really referring to a licensed plumber who cleans drains versus an unlicensed drain cleaner who clean drains.

Mark


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I would still put your associate in the category of a DIY'er. He does not work for or own a plumbing company.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> I would still put your associate in the category of a DIY'er. He does not work for or own a plumbing company.


...and that is my point in part. He has worked in the plumbing industry his entire life yet some would discount his knowledge. As I recall, even a Plumbing Engineer was given the boot because he wasn't a plumber.

Still no one has answered my original question:

_For those of you concerned with sharing trade secrets with non-plumbers, what's the difference between a non-plumber and a non-plumber drain cleaner? Do you find it more appropriated to share with one and not the other? If so why, if not why not?
_

Mark


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

It is a fair question, the non-plumber is more likely to be a DIY and only touch his own house. An unlicensed drain cleaner will be in lots of houses with people who think he is a plumber.


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

You can be a drain cleaner and not do plumbing. I would share with a drain cleaner over a non-plumber. Drain cleaners that run a legal businesses that is. Not all plumbers offer drain cleaning and somebody has to do it.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> I would still put your associate in the category of a DIY'er. He does not work for or own a plumbing company.



...just to add, either do most unlicensed drain cleaners.

Mark


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Gettinit said:


> You can be a drain cleaner and not do plumbing. I would share with a drain cleaner over a non-plumber. Drain cleaners that run a legal businesses that is. Not all plumbers offer drain cleaning and somebody has to do it.


How do you clean drains when there is no access without removing piping or fixtures?

Mark


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

ToUtahNow said:


> ...and that is my point in part. He has worked in the plumbing industry his entire life yet some would discount his knowledge. As I recall, even a Plumbing Engineer was given the boot because he wasn't a plumber.
> 
> Still no one has answered my original question:
> 
> ...


Then I will be more specific. Maybe I was too vague answering a question with a question.

Plumbing Professional = Currently or previously being employed in the skilled "trade" of plumbing, earning your living from the same. Doing so within the confines of the licensing laws of your particular location. This includes MP, JP, Apprentices, and unlicensed drain cleaners (non-plumbers). In some instances on the PZ this definition has been broadened to include certain managerial, administrative, and employer positions that while not directly working with pipe in the field they are so integral to the field work their input on the PZ is not only appropriate but of great value.

Non-Plumber Drain Cleaner = a Plumbing Professional that is not required by the AHJ to be a licensed Plumber. 

Non-Plumber = everyone else.

I have no problem at all downloading anything in my experience to anyone in the first two categories. I will not go out of my way to overly educate non-plumbers unless it is in my own selfish best interests. I share info to pay back the trade that has provided for me and my family. The trade does not benefit from doing it for non-plumbers. On the PZ (and countless other internet and paper sources) non-plumbers do have ready access to most trade details. I will stop short of calling them secrets because I do not think there is anything in the way of secrets to be protected. It is all out there for those willing to dig. I just have no motivation to dig for them. Like I have said before, no one is going to learn how to cable a sewer or run gas pipe by reading a thread on sectional machines or fitting take-offs on the PZ.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

ToUtahNow said:


> ...and that is my point in part. He has worked in the plumbing industry his entire life yet some would discount his knowledge. As I recall, even a Plumbing Engineer was given the boot because he wasn't a plumber.
> 
> Still no one has answered my original question:
> 
> ...


Here is my take on this Mark.

There are many areas that rely only on the qualifier as the only license. There are many master plumbers that will sell their license to qualify a company. These companies hire maintenance personnel and place them in a truck and call them a plumber. These people will call themselves a plumber.
There still are many communities that do not recognize a license for a plumber to operate a company and no one in the company is licensed master or journeyman in the company.
I have had a Masters license in 1 state and now hold a journeyman’s license in the state where I live. I believe in the license and am proud to show it off and state that I have it. Until there is 1 license that covers all states and a uniform code there is no getting round the fact that unqualified, unskilled, illegal workers will work on plumbing.
Speaking for myself and no one else I would rather tell the DIY or The drain cleaner how to do it properly and not hurt or possibly kill another person that to shut my mouth and allow it to happen. I will turn that person in. I turned in a person that sold/installed a standard gas water heater where a power vent was required and the exhaust fumes sent through the home via the attic. The customer gave me a bad review however I saved her life.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

On a personal note, my brother-in-law worked for me for a while before becoming an auto mechanic. His dad and his brother opened opened a carpet cleaning business with him on the side. When it didn't work out, he already had a pickup, so he bought a drain cleaning machine to clean drains on the side. Eventually, he quit his day job to become a full-time drain cleaner. Today he has his plumbing license.

Mark


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

ToUtahNow said:


> How do you clean drains when there is no access without removing piping or fixtures?
> 
> Mark


They would call their plumbers who use them. One hand washes the other, or at least it should. You better believe I call other contractors that use me.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Gettinit said:


> They would call their plumbers who use them. One hand washes the other, or at least it should. You better believe I call other contractors that use me.


That is definitely how it should be but that has not been my experience.

Mark


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

ToUtahNow said:


> That is definitely how it should be but that has not been my experience.
> 
> Mark


It is my experience as well. People are more concerned with cost and forget it is a crime.


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Here is my take on this Mark.
> 
> There are many areas that rely only on the qualifier as the only license. There are many master plumbers that will sell their license to qualify a company. These companies hire maintenance personnel and place them in a truck and call them a plumber. These people will call themselves a plumber.
> There still are many communities that do not recognize a license for a plumber to operate a company and no one in the company is licensed master or journeyman in the company.
> ...


Your first paragraph is so true, where I currently work the license holder is required to be there at least part time, but I have never met him, he isn't even a part owner. The owner who is handing the business off to his daughter interviewed me, he is a sheet metal guy in his late 50s. Our licensed plumber also lends his license out to a local water conditioning company. Delaware has strict rules on who can do plumbing work, has to be a licensed plumber but water heater and water conditioning replacements no longer need permits so why would anyone need a licensed plumber if you don't have to pull permits except for work like remodels and new work.

I had no idea about the 2nd part of your paragraph, there are states that don't require licenses for plumbers? I didn't know that.

Even with a national code I don't think it would matter, I was reading a Yelp review and the customer felt they had paid to much for a water heater install, 3 or 4 different people wrote they deserved to overpay for the water heater because they used a license plumber. Basically saying anyone can install a water heater. As long as there are cheap people who have no respect for any trade, there will be handy hacks doing plumbing work.


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

ToUtahNow said:


> How do you clean drains when there is no access without removing piping or fixtures?
> 
> Mark


I thought the same thing about Appliance repair businesses replacing garbage disposals, alot of them advertise for it. I wonder what else could be seen as an appliance?


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## Ghostmaker (Jan 12, 2013)

James420 said:


> Your first paragraph is so true, where I currently work the license holder is required to be there at least part time, but I have never met him, he isn't even a part owner. The owner who is handing the business off to his daughter interviewed me, he is a sheet metal guy in his late 50s. Our licensed plumber also lends his license out to a local water conditioning company. Delaware has strict rules on who can do plumbing work, has to be a licensed plumber but water heater and water conditioning replacements no longer need permits so why would anyone need a licensed plumber if you don't have to pull permits except for work like remodels and new work.
> 
> I had no idea about the 2nd part of your paragraph, there are states that don't require licenses for plumbers? I didn't know that.
> 
> Even with a national code I don't think it would matter, I was reading a Yelp review and the customer felt they had paid to much for a water heater install, 3 or 4 different people wrote they deserved to overpay for the water heater because they used a license plumber. Basically saying anyone can install a water heater. As long as there are cheap people who have no respect for any trade, there will be handy hacks doing plumbing work.


Ohio has changed there law and is active in busting that show...


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

If my count is correct on this question it appears four are okay with sharing with non-plumbers and one is oppose to it. Bottom line, it appears those who are worried about keeping trade secrets secret, are in the minority.

Mark


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

ToUtahNow said:


> If my count is correct on this question it appears four are okay with sharing with non-plumbers and one is oppose to it. Bottom line, it appears those who are worried about keeping trade secrets secret, are in the minority.
> 
> Mark


Don't you already have a thread for this topic?


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

plbgbiz said:


> Don't you already have a thread for this topic?


No, I was expanding on my original question which was moved from the off topic section to the help and suggestion section. Because my original post had nothing to do with help or suggestions plus the fact that I was differentiating between plumbers and non licensed drain cleaners, I started the new thread in general plumbing discussions. As I posted to Plumber, if moderators feel it is in the wrong place they are welcome to move it.

Mark


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Drain Cleaners; Licensed or not? An unlicensed drain cleaner (and they don't need to be in my state) may very well be quite skilled at his (or her) craft but......they are not plumbers. Cleaning a drain is in no way the same as desiging and installing the DWV, nor does it cover 99% of what is in the code books so although I may respect some drain guys I certainly do not put them in the same catagory as licensed plumbers. Nor do I put company owners without licenses in the same catagory. Not that their contributions to their company are of any less value, its just that they are not plumbers and since they are not plumbers I don't think they belong on a forum that was started for "Licensed Plumbers" As for industry guys, same thing. I am sure that some of them may have some helpful advice but on the whole, they are usually either trying to sell their products or defend their products which I don't think is what this forum was started for. I feel that some have lost sight of the original intent here and are now dead set on moulding it into something different which, is their call. Just don't be suprised when others are not willing to buy into it. We all came here because we were sick of the environments on other DIY forums. We were sick and tired of idiots posting stupid questions or wanting someone to totally desigh their project for them, for free. There are enough of those types of forums already. PZ was an oasis where licensed plumbers could talk openly about the problems or triumphs of the day. Now its a place where most of what gets posted gets edited or deleted.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Drain Cleaners; Licensed or not? An unlicensed drain cleaner (and they don't need to be in my state) may very well be quite skilled at his (or her) craft but......they are not plumbers. Cleaning a drain is in no way the same as desiging and installing the DWV, nor does it cover 99% of what is in the code books so although I may respect some drain guys I certainly do not put them in the same catagory as licensed plumbers. Nor do I put company owners without licenses in the same catagory. Not that their contributions to their company are of any less value, its just that they are not plumbers and since they are not plumbers I don't think they belong on a forum that was started for "Licensed Plumbers" As for industry guys, same thing. I am sure that some of them may have some helpful advice but on the whole, they are usually either trying to sell their products or defend their products which I don't think is what this forum was started for. I feel that some have lost sight of the original intent here and are now dead set on moulding it into something different which, is their call. Just don't be suprised when others are not willing to buy into it. We all came here because we were sick of the environments on other DIY forums. We were sick and tired of idiots posting stupid questions or wanting someone to totally desigh their project for them, for free. There are enough of those types of forums already. PZ was an oasis where licensed plumbers could talk openly about the problems or triumphs of the day. Now its a place where most of what gets posted gets edited or deleted.


Nothing has changed here in regards to who is allowed to post to the forum. 

Simple as that. 

Things get deleted or edited because they are disruptive, disrespectful, or are in violation of forum rules.


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Or because the owner or moderators don't agree with what was said. You guys all have the right to censor anything you want to censor. Its a privately owned site and you work for the owner but keep in mind that sites like this rely on credible folks to post


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Or because the owner or moderators don't agree with what was said. You guys all have the right to censor anything you want to censor. Its a privately owned site and you work for the owner but keep in mind that sites like this rely on credible folks to post


Thank you for understanding and acknowledging that the site owner gets to make the rules. After 30 days of whining and beating the dead horse, you have been heard.

Do you think maybe it's time to move on now? or is it your intention to beat the freakin' horse everyday?


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Or because the owner or moderators don't agree with what was said. You guys all have the right to censor anything you want to censor. Its a privately owned site and you work for the owner but keep in mind that sites like this rely on credible folks to post


 
Things get deleted or edited because they are disruptive, disrespectful, or are in violation of forum rules.

There are a handful of people that get their posts edited....For good reason. Credible or not...


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

I believe it has been made absolutely clear, civil discourse will not be tolerated. As Phat Cat explained it so eloquently, that is after all, the owner's prerogative.

Mark


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> I believe it has been made absolutely clear, civil discourse will not be tolerated. As Phat Cat explained it so eloquently, that is after all, the owner's prerogative.
> 
> Mark


There is NOTHING civil about the discourse that has taken place the past 30 days. 

There is NOTHING civil about passive-aggressive behavior, manipulation, attacking the PZ site, attacking the Moderators, so forth. 

PZ has not changed - you have changed. Perhaps it is time to leave since PZ no longer meets your needs. Seriously, some of you don't like it - it is what it is. You have other options, including Ridgid. Enjoy what it has to offer, but wait a minute, a few members said your over-moderation and catering to H.O.s is what did Ridgid in. :yes:


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Phat Cat said:


> There is NOTHING civil about the discourse that has taken place the past 30 days.
> 
> There is NOTHING civil about passive-aggressive behavior, manipulation, attacking the PZ site, attacking the Moderators, so forth.
> 
> PZ has not changed - you have changed. Perhaps it is time to leave since PZ no longer meets your needs. Seriously, some of you don't like it - it is what it is. You have other options, including Ridgid. Enjoy what it has to offer, but wait a minute, a few members said your over-moderation and catering to H.O.s is what did Ridgid in. :yes:


And that right there folks is the reason why. You will obey or you will be shot :thumbsup: So drive mark and me off and red will probably follow and leave this Gestapo forum to you moderators and Plumber. You just don't get it. YOU ruined this forum. Not the members.. YOU. You are directly responsible for pissing off half the membership. We may have argued with each other but we always came back to center. It is YOUR meddling that caused all of this. Ad what really sucks is that way back when we first started you wouldn't have even been allowed to be a member here. Go ahead and ban me too. This forum has become nothing but a waste of everyone's time.

JohnBN. You want to save this forum, get rid of your entire moderating staff and start over. Otherwise, good luck.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

I did not make the rules. :no: Apparently, the membership had no trouble abiding by the rules. Ask Red his opinion on why he left PZ initially . . . ask him what he thought of the P & R section.

Red doesn't care for Trolls anymore than anyone else. 

You all have complaints, as does everyone. However, your complaints are not all the same complaints. For those complaining about moderation, there is another group who do respect the moderation to make PZ function for the majority, not a few.

Have you noticed less than 5 of you are the ones being so verbal on this issue?


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## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

What I have noticed is that there have only been 27 MEMBERS active for the whole day. What I have noticed is that there are maybe five of us still left of the original active members. What I have noticed is that you seem he'll bent on clearing them out too. What I have noticed is that three moderators have manage to gut this once fine forum. Fresh start I guess :laughing:


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

Most won't speak due to fear of being banned the few that do speak at this point don't care about being banned I got a 24 hour banned for defending os and after I left and came pack people were still pad mouthing him my point is I didn't offend harras or curse and I got banned reason being I qoute its over with os and you know that you banned for 24 hours so that why I don't say nothing no more it falls on deaf ears and blind eyes it banned or b quiet here well at least that's how who ever banned me made me feel no pm warning nothing just banned button


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