# Accountability for Water Heaters



## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

I lose about 95% of the calls i get for water heaters in older homes. My typical close rate for a water heater call is above 50%. The reason I'm losing these jobs is because they don't like the idea of installing a flue liner or power vent water heater. 

I'm wondering who is installing these water heaters in these 70+ year old homes with no flue liners. I would be willing to bet that most of them are purchased from Home Depot and installed by Handyhacks. 

AO Smith has started a contractor rewards program, they actually are keeping tabs on who purchased every water heater sold. This is a step in the right direction. I'm hoping it's just a matter of time before some law firm sues the crap out of Rheem for letting uninformed homeowners install their water heaters in unsafe conditions. 

With all the technology available today, there is no excuse for every serial number not to be accounted for. This is the type of thing that we should be lobbying for.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

plumberkc said:


> I lose about 95% of the calls i get for water heaters in older homes. My typical close rate for a water heater call is above 50%. The reason I'm losing these jobs is because they don't like the idea of installing a flue liner or power vent water heater.
> 
> I'm wondering who is installing these water heaters in these 70+ year old homes with no flue liners. I would be willing to bet that most of them are purchased from Home Depot and installed by Handyhacks.
> 
> ...












In some areas they do that with backflows. If some j...ckoff swaps out an RPZ without the proper permit{s}, the next time that device is tested, the test report will have a different serial number on it from the year prior, and the AHJ will tell the property owner that his device was installed illegally. They should do the same with an appliance that can generate carbon monoxide into a home and kill the occupants.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> They should do the same with an appliance that can generate carbon monoxide into a home and kill the occupants.


 Statistics show there are only about 500 deaths per year from carbon monoxide. I'm sure that is a drastic underestimation. I believe it's a major contributor in chronic illness that is often blamed on other causes. People also get a false sense of security with CO detectors. They rarely go off even when there is a total backdraft. Just because the detector doesn't pick up anything doesn't mean it's not in the house.


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

plumberkc said:


> Statistics show there are only about 500 deaths per year from carbon monoxide. I'm sure that is a drastic underestimation. I believe it's a major contributor in chronic illness that is often blamed on other causes. People also get a false sense of security with CO detectors. They rarely go off even when there is a total backdraft. Just because the detector doesn't pick up anything doesn't mean it's not in the house.


The plug-in/battery operated style CO detectors have a min limit of 30PPM. OH&S sets the working limit at 8ppm. They why the personal CO detectors are $250, they read 1PPM.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

plumberkc said:


> I lose about 95% of the calls i get for water heaters in older homes. My typical close rate for a water heater call is above 50%. The reason I'm losing these jobs is because they don't like the idea of installing a flue liner or power vent water heater.
> 
> I'm wondering who is installing these water heaters in these 70+ year old homes with no flue liners. I would be willing to bet that most of them are purchased from Home Depot and installed by Handyhacks.
> 
> ...




you are losing the calls because you are scaring off the customers in the older homes when you go into the flu-liner routine...on the phone..
. Even though you have the best intentions , they think that you are trying to up-sell them..and they run off like jack rabbits...... 

they just want a water heater ... if they really need the flu lined , I simply refer them to a hvac man to do this job.....and they either have it done or they gamble on the chimney being bad... 

Make them aware of the potential problem, write it on your water heater installation bill to cover your ass and then move on.....you have done all you need to do for them and you are not gonna change their minds if they dont want a flu liner.....

also..really like the stair climber...:yes:


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> you are losing the calls because you are scaring off the customers in the older homes when you go into the flu-liner routine...on the phone..
> . Even though you have the best intentions , they think that you are trying to up-sell them..and they run off like jack rabbits......
> 
> they just want a water heater ... if they really need the flu lined , I simply refer them to a hvac man to do this job.....and they either have it done or they gamble on the chimney being bad...
> ...


Around here, it would be you gambling if the chimney was good or bad. If you swap a water heater or anything else that goes into the chimney you are responsible to make sure the chimney is sized correctly, clean and in usable condition.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

You install it, you're responsible for the life of the tank.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

bct p&h said:


> Around here, it would be you gambling if the chimney was good or bad. If you swap a water heater or anything else that goes into the chimney you are responsible to make sure the chimney is sized correctly, clean and in usable condition.



I dont know where around your parts are.......
if that is the case in your area then you are certainly ham-stringed from the get go and you probably will be losing many or most of your water heater sales to HD and Blowes who could care less what the chimmney looks like.... 
Homeowners and hacks could care less too....

no permits are necessary in our area to do this, and HD and Lowes will literally throw anything in... 

I still feel I should make them aware of their situation and they should get some chimney sweeper out to service the system..
you dont know how many starlings and squirrels could be dead in that chimney..or when they fell into the liner...


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> I dont know where around your parts are.......
> if that is the case in your area then you are certainly ham-stringed from the get go and you probably will be losing many or most of your water heater sales to HD and Blowes who could care less what the chimmney looks like....
> Homeowners and hacks could care less too....
> 
> ...


I'd rather lose a water heater to HD/Lowes/Handyman than be responsible for the death of a family because CO was leaking into their bedrooms from a bad chimney.
I always check the chimney with a flashlight and a mirror and if I can I'll go up on the roof and look down it. I'll also take a look at any exposed parts of the chimney. If I have even the slightest doubt of its condition I have a chimney guy come in. If it needs a liner that's between the owner and the chimney guy but I won't touch anything until he has the OK and we usually do everything at the same time.
The thing I don't like is when someone swaps out a furnace and takes it out of the chimney but leaves the water heater in there with no liner. Now the chimney is seriously oversized for what's going in it. It's only a matter of time before the chimney is falling apart from the inside out from the condensation. I've seen it happen quite a few times. Without the furnace the water heater isn't putting out enough heat to draft properly and cools to the point of condensating before it gets to the roof.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

I just spent $500 for a camera to inspect the inside of a flue. I'm sure it will cost me some jobs but at least I can have a clear conscience that nobody will get sick from a heater I've installed.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

I think that you are all doing a great job going the extra mile but I feel that at some point it all becomes no-win situation.. 

Are you charging them money for spending your time inspecting their chimney or is this a free service you are doing for them...??

so you show up to install a heater and then tell them that they need a new liner for $$ and then they tell you to pack up and leave and they are gonna think about it...?? and of course in their minds, they never had a problem with the old heater before you showed up...:whistling2:.. 

So then they get Lowes to come out and install a Whirlpool and they buy themselves a cheap carbon monoxide detector and forget about the whole thing...


I am just pondering how many times this goes down 

.Lowes and HD could care less and are not worried about future accountability... They might document everything to cover their asses
and make mention of needing a new flu liner... I dont know...


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

That's exactly right, I know you run into the same thing. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "it hasn't killed us yet" or "we have a CO detector". I'll tell you what, the new water heaters are starting to have issues when they don't vent correctly. Think they must be overheating.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

This is just a common place thing that is going to happen... wether it be in a 145 year old home or a newer 1990 home...
The homeowner is responsible for their own maintaince and 
should on occasion have their chimmneys cleaned out...but we both know that they dont do it...

We tore out this heater a long while back on a rental property and found this issue.....Rockey the suirrel took a wrong turn and this heater was seriously overheating and acting weird...


We pulled Rockey out and lit some newspaper to see if it had good smoke draw and installed a new heater... of course we told the landlord they better have the system cleaned out for good measure..
and I made notes on the billing for my records........ 

I am not the "flu pipe police" but I will give them a dire warning about getting this services asap and the dangers they can face from carbon monoxide.. 

In all honesty, you are not gonna save the world.....lots of these folks are not gonna heed your advice... and just call someone else. We both know that a lot of them are too poor, too dumb, or too drunk to care .


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Found the same thing awhile back.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

plumberkc said:


> Found the same thing awhile back.



I think you could have gotten a better picture of that rodent..
You should have got a close up for more of a shock value... 
you can barely see his nose sticking out of the flu pipe...

so it that a mummified squirrel , rat or possum??


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

It was a squirrel and I have no shame admitting that I jumped back like a little girl upon disconnecting that flue pipe.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

They can startle you pretty good when you are not expecting to be staring one down....... and a lot of them can be pretty ripe if they are fairly fresh....

the last one I got into I thought that the lady of the house was gonna feint on me......she totally went ape-****...once she saw it she ran upstairs..




.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Installed a flue liner today.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Almost tried to do the install with a ladder.


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## BOBBYTUCSON (Feb 8, 2013)

Poor rocky


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