# Bradford White Honeywell



## Chadillac80 (Dec 22, 2012)

Not sure if this has already been discussed but what's the deal with the Bradford White Honeywells going out after a couple years and won't relit? We've been replacing them like crazzzy around here under warranty. I've done (2) side by side in the same house. The pilot goes out... You relit pilot...green light clicks on... You turn the thermostat up to activate burner annnnnnd NOTHING??? Our co carries replacement gas controls now. I have a couple on my truck now since the dual replacement incident. Anybody dealing with these same issues?


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

What millivolt readings are you getting?


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## Chadillac80 (Dec 22, 2012)

JK949 said:


> What millivolt readings are you getting?


Don't ck. We just replace them and they fire right up.


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## Chadillac80 (Dec 22, 2012)

JK949 said:


> What millivolt readings are you getting?


School me on why that would matter?


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

Chadillac80 said:


> School me on why that would matter?


millivolts only really matter if the pilot is dropping out... it sounds like the pilot was holding and the thermostat was not switching correctly right? you wanna make sure the thermocouple is putting out enough volts to keep the electromagnet in the valve open usually around 20 - 30 is what i look for..

those icon valves sit in a dry well right? the swap out must have been a snap..


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

Plumbworker said:


> millivolts only really matter if the pilot is dropping out... it sounds like the pilot was holding and the thermostat was not switching correctly right? you wanna make sure the thermocouple is putting out enough volts to keep the electromagnet in the valve open usually around 20 - 30 is what i look for..
> 
> those icon valves sit in a dry well right? the swap out must have been a snap..


30 on standard thermocouple. 300 on Icon pilot assembly. I've tested one that started over 300, then dropped below after 15 mins and wouldn't rise again. Replaced pilot assembly, had over 300 for 1/2 hr.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

When checking thermocouples it's best to test them under load. Robertshaw makes a test adapter for this.

Or you can just be a parts changer and guess till you win.


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

Re-read the post lol. Pain meds, lack of sleep and work getting bored.


Snip snip


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*change out the whole thing while you are there*

we got away from Bradford white when they came out with those honey well valves back in 2009....

they seem terpermental to me and I had a hell of a time just getting them to light for the first time...

A good number we installed needed a hard knock to them with channel locks to "wake them up"....of course the customer is standing over your shoulder when you have to do this...:furious:

there is probably something in the circuit board that is going bad on you.....

we have had issues with the *thermopile* a few times and that is more coplicated to change out... especially when you cant get the light to come on to make a series of beeps to tell you what is wrong..

I suggest you change it all out at the same time, or you might be comming back again on the thermopile...... but do whatever works for you.


I have steered clear of them and we are getting a longer life out of the Rheem heaters anyway...

on another note WHIRLPOOL is useing that same honeywell valve now on their crappy heaters and its become an issue...

.


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## Chadillac80 (Dec 22, 2012)

Master Mark said:


> we got away from Bradford white when they came out with those honey well valves back in 2009....
> 
> they seem terpermental to me and I had a hell of a time just getting them to light for the first time...
> 
> ...


Was going to say they have thermopiles not thermocouples. ^^^thx^^^ Yea we tried changing the thermopiles out at first and it didn't work. Then we tried changing the cover plate and it still didnt working...Only changing the actual gas control works (which is a solid piece that has nothing to adjust or test). And I swear I've done 30-40 in the past couple years. My boss said their going to stop making the Honeywells because of all the problems. Not sure how true that is.


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## Chadillac80 (Dec 22, 2012)

Olemissplumber said:


> When checking thermocouples it's best to test them under load. Robertshaw makes a test adapter for this.
> 
> Or you can just be a parts changer and guess till you win.


This is on the Honeywell with a thermopile not thermocouple. I know how to ck a thermocouple sir. Re-read the post. "Bradford White Honeywell gas control" thermopiles last 10x longer than a thermocouple.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

if you have changed out 40 of them over tha psst few years, it makes me wonder if just a normal power surge through the electrical system could short out one of those honey-well controls... 
that ....or a close by lightening strike..:yes: 

most homes have a ground going across the hot and cold lines on top of the heater and I cant immagine one of those controls being able to handle much juice 
or any kind of surge going through them .....

personally I think they suck....


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## Chadillac80 (Dec 22, 2012)

Master Mark said:


> if you have changed out 40 of them over tha psst few years, it makes me wonder if just a normal power surge through the electrical system could short out one of those honey-well controls...
> that ....or a close by lightening strike..:yes:
> 
> most homes have a ground going across the hot and cold lines on top of the heater and I cant immagine one of those controls being able to handle much juice
> ...


I agree. Not sure why they felt a need to change them. What's so wrong with a regular Robertshaw?? For the most part they are very reliable.


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## Olemissplumber (Dec 7, 2012)

Chadillac80 said:


> This is on the Honeywell with a thermopile not thermocouple. I know how to ck a thermocouple sir. Re-read the post. "Bradford White Honeywell gas control" thermopiles last 10x longer than a thermocouple.


Read the posts above mine and you will see testing of thermocouples was brought up. I was simply stating that thermocouples should be tested under load and they should. 

Thermopiles a should also be tested under a working load.

Sorry if you feel attacked by my every post but that's a personal issue you may need to work on. Not everything is directed at you despite how you feel.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*there was nothing wrong with the old design*

the Bradford heater was just perfect with the older valve..... simple, easy to service

 Then some "tech-no-nerds--geeks" got control of the research department at bradford white, and they got it into their heads that everyone would like to be able monitor their water heaters while they were at work, or from their hand held devices....:blink::blink: why??

I guess with the honey-well valve you can hook it up to your burgular alarm system to tell you about water leaks, or you can go online and see when it is heating:blink: ... 
you can wire up a bunch of controls to it that most normal folks could care less about...... only a very small number of folks (geeks--nerds) would find any of this interesting.....

I dont think that they have sold many of the "add on app features" to the general public that they thought would sell like hot cakes a few years back either...too expensive and totally worthless to anyone with normal common sense.....

The reason for all of this.......my best guess is that the president of Bradford white had a pregnent daughter and new son-in-law that needed a job fast... so they put him in command of this department.....:laughing::yes:..


basically the Icon valve sucks......


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## Coolcanuck (Jan 30, 2012)

That's new info for me, you would think they would advertise those features more or have a campaign when they released them. I've been installing rheem tanks. I put in an ecobee thermostat in my place and love the features of the system. I'm in an area where remote systems are ideal for customers because of the oil and gas industry. They have lots of money, love to show off gadgets, and enjoy the piece of mind knowing things are working at home while they are away. I bought a place with an electric water heater and am switching to gas, knowing this may have just sold Bradford a tank. We have a couple valves in the shop, if I get a text from the thermostat that my tAnk temp is dropping it wouldn't be the end of the world for me.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> they seem terpermental to me and I had a hell of a time just getting them to light for the first time...
> 
> A good number we installed needed a hard knock to them with channel locks to "wake them up"....of course the customer is standing over your shoulder when you have to do this...:furious:
> 
> ...


Methinks you don't know what you are doing because whacking a gas valve with channel locks is a whole bunch of idiocy.

Image one is a Honeywell gas valve installed on a Bradford White Water Heater.

Image two is a Honeywell gas valve installed on a Bradford White Water Heater with it's cover removed

Image three is the circuit board of a Honeywell Gas valve on a Bradford White Water Heater. It is screwed to the exterior cover. 

Image four is the Honeywell gas valve that has been disconnected from the front cover and you can see the front and board components.
Why you think that whacking this with a pair of pliers is a good idea tells me you're just a dumb ass.

Image five is the thermopile from a Bradford White gas fired water heater that has been pulled from it's holder, which just slides in like the old thermocouples did, BTW. You'll see the wires that connect to the reset button and to the gas valve are simple bladed push-connections. Not very complicated at all.

The next post will show the so-called "complicated" thermopile, with it's two bewildering blade connections unfastened. I'd put it here, but I can only upload five pics in a single post.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Behold, the tricky thermopile and it's convoluted and complex connections.

Oh, what bewildering devil designed such a muddled machine?



:laughing::laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I agree...
Not much reason to go Neanderthal on them...

A great reason to get a bit of electrical/electronics education...
These are a sign of the coming times and if we don't get ahead of it obsolescence will come quickly....


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Redwood said:


> I agree...
> Not much reason to go Neanderthal on them...
> 
> A great reason to get a bit of electrical/electronics education...
> These are a sign of the coming times and if we don't get ahead of it obsolescence will come quickly....



Nothing like seeing a year old thread being brought back to life... for a good reason.....

giving them a few light raps has worked for me
to bring them to life.....I cant say its excessive....
I cant say its going Neanderthal, 
but if seems stupid way to deal with a fussy thermostat to some , well that is ok with me..... because it worked...



I have had to change out quite a number of them
there is not a lot to them but I still prefer the older style valve..... others have stated they dont work well in high heat areas like attics... 

They are certainly expensive enough
if you have ever taken any back to get a warranty credit for them , I was shocked to see what the whole package cost.... about $225 a pop





.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> Nothing like seeing a year old thread being brought back to life... for a good reason.....
> 
> giving them a few light raps has worked for me
> to bring them to life.....I cant say its excessive....
> ...


Anyone work with Radient Burners will know a few taps will works wonder...


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> giving them a few light raps has worked for me
> to bring them to life.....I cant say its excessive....
> I cant say its going Neanderthal,
> but if seems stupid way to deal with a fussy thermostat to some , well that is ok with me..... because it worked...


Ok, light raps.... fussy thermostat.



Master Mark;408994
[SIZE=4 said:


> A good number we installed needed a hard knock to them with channel locks to "wake them up"....of course the customer is standing over your shoulder when you have to do this...:furious:[/SIZE]


A good number needed a HARD knock. When you say, a good number, how many is that? Sounds like a lot. How many allegedly lazy units must've been tested before you decided to forsake this wretched brand...a good many...




Master Mark said:


> then the homeowner leaves the area , and in a final act of desperation after 15 minutes, I finaly get mad and smack the body of the plastic gas valve about 6 times with my channel locks....
> .nice swift medium hits on all four corners....... . not hard hits........


 Light, hard and medium? do you progress with these thrashings or do you just wing it, depending on whether or not the customer is within earshot.

Because beating the shinola out of a circuit board is good for it. That's good advice, may I use it in my employee training? 

I mean, surely this electronically controlled fire metering device doesn't need to be treated like a precision instrument.

Then again, if you knew what you were doing.....


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

Did mark steak your wife Chris? You sure have a h**d on for him..... Ok we get it... I did enjoy your info and pics on the gas valve...

Stay classy San Diego...


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

redbeardplumber said:


> Did mark steak your wife Chris? You sure have a h**d on for him..... Ok we get it... I did enjoy your info and pics on the gas valve...
> 
> Stay classy San Diego...


 

He do seem to be pissed off at me..... dont he :laughing::laughing:

I should have never posted those pictures of bad burner assemblies
or that burnt out baffle fallen down into the water heater..

or maybe it was the squrrel in the flu pipe.... I dont know...:laughing:


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> He do seem to be pissed off at me..... dont he :laughing::laughing:
> 
> I should have never posted those pictures of bad burner assemblies
> or that burnt out baffle fallen down into the water heater..
> ...


Dear Stupie,

Please read with context.

Those pictures you posted have nothing to do with you lying to your Rheem distributor because you didn't want to wait on parts. 

I know those kinds of failures exist, I've had birds and bats in water heater flues, and I've seen the flue baffles fail. 

BUT


When you said you "didn't know if the flue was covered in black soot", and all the other possible things that you decided to rant about, I did indeed call them "fictitious failures" in the sense that you were only grasping at straws at a desperate attempt to apply said failures to and legitimize your changing of the entire water heater tanks when you had just admitted that the vial assembly was all that was needed, because you said you'd lie and "claim a leaker" because of wait times.

Again, it is apparent you attempted to apply those lists of breakdowns after the fact when I pointed out that you were a liar... and a thief... back peddle much? Lying cannot be justified.


Hopefully, this helps your comprehension of my meaning about "fictitious failures".

As to the Honeywell gas valve and the channel lock treatment.... well, I don't know how you validate that, but I'm sure that for you, the ends justifies the means.

Honestly, it disgusts me that you parade around a publicly read forum, lying about getting parts changed out under warranty by telling the dealer that the tank is bad, when it's not, and beating gas valves with channel locks, it's a black mark on honest and competent plumbers.

Also, a squirrel in a vent pipe or a melted flue baffle doesn't license you to lie your distributor so he'll give you a new tank either. If the heaters failed under warranty, then you just take them back or get the parts, but anybody with a backbone would not lie and say "leaker" when it's not leaking. The contract of the warranty determines the cause and effect of parts and replacements, not you. 

Of course, I don't know what good trying to explain to you what my point is, you cannot communicate linearly. This is evident as to how you say one thing, then attempt to reinforce it with a different point, all the while missing the subject of the discussion. It's like you cannot understand the ideas of subject and predicate, or reasoning discourse, but then again, flawed logic does fulfill flawed conclusions.


By the way... Do you attack that gas valve lightly, hard, or medium, I can't tell by your inconsistencies....

As to my dislike of you, well, you've always stood out as a scumbag, I noticed this in a comment you made about a picture post several years ago. You do remember it, don't you?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> Nothing like seeing a year old thread being brought back to life... for a good reason..... giving them a few light raps has worked for me to bring them to life.....I cant say its excessive.... I cant say its going Neanderthal, but if seems stupid way to deal with a fussy thermostat to some , well that is ok with me..... because it worked... I have had to change out quite a number of them there is not a lot to them but I still prefer the older style valve..... others have stated they dont work well in high heat areas like attics... They are certainly expensive enough if you have ever taken any back to get a warranty credit for them , I was shocked to see what the whole package cost.... about $225 a pop .


Just pull it and return it as a leaker. LOL

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Gentle ..light taps ...seem to work for me.... usually that gets
the job done.... 

I am very sorry that I hurt your feelings and wounded you
so deeply....that you cant just let it go
but you are really taking this whole thing to the point that 
some might think you could be off your rocker....

I do have better things to do that waste my time 
doing this ....... so good luck


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> Gentle ..light taps ...seem to work for me.... usually that gets
> the job done....
> 
> I am very sorry that I hurt your feelings and wounded you
> ...


MM, 
I'm not wounded, just calling you out. I don't want people to think that all plumbers are like you. A few straight answers and I would have been satisfied. 

I challenge you.

1.What about the "a good number that needed a hard knock" when did it become "light taps"?

2.Why the change in strike velocity?

3.What exactly happens to the circuit board when you hit it? 

4.What wakes up?



Since you claim to be a professional, and give professional opines, I'd just like to see your thoughts on..


5. What qualifies a thermopile to be a "complicated change out" i.e. more complicated than what? 

BW Icon Thermopiles come out quicker than any other design, even quicker than older BW FVIR thermocouple models.

6. Did you see the picture evidence of the thermopile with it's two blade-connections? What's complicated about that?

Just answer my curiosities about what you posted, please, pretty please with sugar on top.





Here's my argument:

I believe that the split door on the Bradford White water heater makes it the easiest FVIR water heater on the market. 

Fact #1

It can be opened with a six-in-one, and it doesn't have those two part metal brackets with a retainer clip on the door where the thermocouple and ignition wire penetrate the door. (This is on the old American and Whirlpool water heaters)

Fact #2
It's easier than Rheem in the sense that Rheem's "basic" thermocouple, pilot supply, and ignition wire are captive in a silicone rubber cone that's pressed through the door. see pic #1 below (same silicone plug on the old A.O. Smith and State water heaters that* required* an entire new assembly.)


Fact #3
To replace a thermocouple on a Rheem, you must pull the *entire* burner.

That's four screws, the pilot tube, the burner tube, the thermocouple nut and the ignition wire, then pull the burner, just to get to the thermocouple.

Fact #5
If you try to remove this "basic thermocouple" the silicone plug usually tears on the back of the thermocouple. See pic number 2 below. This is only a little tearing, but still this procedure is more work for replacement, thus negating the "basic thermocouple" argument for Rheem.

Let's also consider the burner door gasket may tear also.

Fact #6
Also the the Rheem required a torx head to open the burner.

While I think we all have them on the truck, but what's the necessity to require another tool to service when a six-in-one will do?

To open a Rheem for service it requires; three wrenches, a torx driver, and possibly a door gasket. 




To me, replacing a thermopile on an Icon valve is about as simple as replacing a flapper.

Just satisfy these questions and I'll leave this.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

You are wasting a lot of energy in this crusade you are on....

I really dont care wether you are fond of the ICON valve 
or the Rheem unit....... 

I like to wipe my ass with Charman toilet paper, and maybe you like some other brand.... thats ok with me:laughing::yes:

I simply like the Rheems better over the Bradfords
because we have been installing both since the fvir change over in 2003

we have been finding that the rheem heaters are better
built and are lasting on average about 10-12 years with a 
water softener . I have also been finding that the Bradfords
seem to last only about 4-7 years with soft water....
Really, what does that tell you about the heaters quality??

I have been changeing out probably 5-15 bradfords under 
warranty every month since about 2006.
Most all of them had a soft water system....some were mine but most are installed by other plumbers...Being on the Bradfords web site in this central region keeps me hopping because a lot of plumbers in town dont want to do warranty work 

I dont remember the last time I had to warranty out a Rheem water heater..... maybe at least a year ago..?? Yes, I am on their site for warranty work too but its pretty quite out there..

Even in my own home, I am on my *second 75 gallon Bradford heater* with a prv valve and the thermal expansion tank......in under 5 years.. Installed the second heater in june of 12, and YES it has the ICON valve and I hope it lasts a long time... I did not have to smack it with my pliers even once....:laughing:...

(if you lurk back far enough on your crusade to avenge your honor, you will find somewhere where I stated this )


I suppose its good money to do the Bradford warranty work all over the mid state area state, but still........


now go ahead and fire off your next salvo.....
I got to go cut the grass........


.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Couldn't just answer the questions?

They're quite simple. 

Again, you chase the rabbit trail. Your above explanation of experience with the two brands are understood, but that was never the point. Typical of a liars behavior to go into long stories to humor other discussion.

I _was _trying to get your enlightenment regarding the channel lock "wake-ups" and why you said the thermopile change out is complicated.

It was fun to read your post and how you went from "hard knocks" to "light taps" when you were called on your evidently ignorant and unscientific lighting process. 

Who knew that Honeywell solid state electronics needed batting to wake them up? I read the lighting instructions and they never mentioned that part.

I posted the pics to refute your BS and to help demystify what other plumbers might ponder. What can I say, I'm a giver. 

You won't explain your statement about so-called complications of thermopile change out, evidently because you had never done it, so, you called it complicated.

I think it has been well demonstrated that the thermopile is anything but complicated. If in doubt, read the above posts, I spelled out it's one-tool simplicity.

Just like you can't explain the cause and effect of whacking the Honeywell valve with a pair of channel locks, whether hard or lightly, which is another inconsistency in your convoluted advice. Luckily, it's quoted, so you cannot go back and change what you said. We both know you do that.

I don't believe you even knew what what behind the plastic cover before I posted those pics.


There is a difference between giving seasoned advice and imposing your imaginations.

My pet peeve is those who pose as experts and give unqualified counsel.


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## panther (Oct 27, 2010)

Installed a 40 gallon natural gas Bradford White last week and its stopped working 5 minutes after I lit it. Received the low pilot flame code. Came back a couple of days later for the inspection and it was off again. Re lit it and goth call from customer that it was out again. Bradford is sending their tech out to look at the heater. I've been on the hunt for a water heater that I won't have to deal with this stuff with. It's been futile to say the least. For many years I only installed State, with almost no problems. Then they changed their design. Then I went to American Standard and had call backs of heater shutting off 6 months to a year after installation. I've heard many great things about Bradford from plumbing zone. So I made the switch. Now this crap. Maybe I will try Rheem. Bradford's customer service was bad ass though.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

panther said:


> Installed a 40 gallon natural gas Bradford White last week and its stopped working 5 minutes after I lit it. Received the low pilot flame code. Came back a couple of days later for the inspection and it was off again. Re lit it and goth call from customer that it was out again. Bradford is sending their tech out to look at the heater. I've been on the hunt for a water heater that I won't have to deal with this stuff with. It's been futile to say the least. For many years I only installed State, with almost no problems. Then they changed their design. Then I went to American Standard and had call backs of heater shutting off 6 months to a year after installation. I've heard many great things about Bradford from plumbing zone. So I made the switch. Now this crap. Maybe I will try Rheem. Bradford's customer service was bad ass though.


 We have had fits with them and usually change out everything on the valve when they act squirrley...I dont need the call backs.. 

But You better ask chris how to diagnose one of the Icon valves.. he is the expert here....



I would tell you to just hit it lightly with a hammer:laughing::laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

panther said:


> Installed a 40 gallon natural gas Bradford White last week and its stopped working 5 minutes after I lit it. Received the low pilot flame code. Came back a couple of days later for the inspection and it was off again. Re lit it and goth call from customer that it was out again. Bradford is sending their tech out to look at the heater. I've been on the hunt for a water heater that I won't have to deal with this stuff with. It's been futile to say the least. For many years I only installed State, with almost no problems. Then they changed their design. Then I went to American Standard and had call backs of heater shutting off 6 months to a year after installation. I've heard many great things about Bradford from plumbing zone. So I made the switch. Now this crap. Maybe I will try Rheem. Bradford's customer service was bad ass though.





Master Mark said:


> We have had fits with them and usually change out everything on the valve when they act squirrley...I dont need the call backs..
> 
> But You better ask chris how to diagnose one of the Icon valves.. he is the expert here....
> 
> ...


Well I did say at some point the Neanderthal approach wasn't a good idea...

The 2016 Final Rule will be having a devastating effect on many plumbers that have failed to become proficient with electronic controls. The efficiency standards and emission standards are going to get tougher and tougher, don't think that the 2016 Final Rule will be the last round of tightening standards either. Much like the automotive industry meeting these standards pretty much can only be done with electronic controls, and there will be several rounds of technology improvements. We'll either have to learn how to deal with them or, end up being talked about on a Water Heater Repair Forum as a Low Ball Craigslist Hack that installs water heaters with a taillight guarantee never to be seen again when there is a problem...

So if your business is comprised heavily of water heater installation, replacement, & repairs, the writing is on the wall to become proficient with the electronic controls in use today and those coming in the future. If you don't want to then perhaps you should invest in some drain cleaning equipment and get out there snaking out kitchen sink lines, bathtub & shower lines, and main lines, but beware technology will overtake you there as well with companies using cameras, electronic locating, pipe relining, pipe bursting, and highly specialized jetting nozzles. You'll even find an increasing need to use computer generated reports, with video and pictures embedded along with quotes to obtain work, many property managers are doing this today...

You are basically going to have to get with the modern technology or, face extinction...










Our nice simple gas water heaters and gas heating appliances have seen many changes already. The standing pilot light has turned into intermittent pilot lights, hot surface ignition, and spark ignition. Flame verification is now done with thermopiles, and electronic flame sensors. Increasing numbers of units are using powered dampers, outside combustion air, blowers used in burners and draft inducers, with sensors verifying proper operation to PLC Controls. 

The time is now to get the education you need to be able to properly troubleshoot these because they aren't going away, and going Neanderthal with a pair of channellock pliers will not get you by....:whistling2:

Now... For Panther's problem...

The Low Pilot Flame Code:

Lets start simple! 
How does the pilot look is there a proper flame?
If the pilot is unstable have you checked the gas supply and made sure the pilot assembly was clean?
Is the Thermopile properly positioned in the flame?
Are The connections for the thermopile secure?
Does the thermopile read between 350mV - 850mV?

Nothing here is rocket science...
And nothing here needs a whack of the channellocks to wake it up....:laughing:

We're all going to have to get better at this stuff...

Just my 2¢....


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

Redwood said:


> Well I did say at some point the Neanderthal approach wasn't a good idea...
> 
> The 2016 Final Rule will be having a devastating effect on many plumbers that have failed to become proficient with electronic controls. The efficiency standards and emission standards are going to get tougher and tougher, don't think that the 2016 Final Rule will be the last round of tightening standards either. Much like the automotive industry meeting these standards pretty much can only be done with electronic controls, and there will be several rounds of technology improvements. We'll either have to learn how to deal with them or, end up being talked about on a Water Heater Repair Forum as a Low Ball Craigslist Hack that installs water heaters with a taillight guarantee never to be seen again when there is a problem...
> 
> ...


Great post Red. Very true. I have found I'm not the best with controls. However I am forcing myself to spend the time on many of these tanks. I talk with technical assistance
A lot, and they have to put up with my ignorant questions. And I don't charge for my learning... How can I. Maybe In a few years I'll be the go to guy in these heaters.?? Or maybe I'll learn how to use these new drain cleaning machines... IDK


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

redbeardplumber said:


> Great post Red. Very true. I have found I'm not the best with controls. However I am forcing myself to spend the time on many of these tanks. I talk with technical assistance
> A lot, and they have to put up with my ignorant questions. And I don't charge for my learning... How can I. Maybe In a few years I'll be the go to guy in these heaters.?? Or maybe I'll learn how to use these new drain cleaning machines... IDK


Got problem with new water heater?? Call a boiler guy.. the controls are similiar to boiler set up


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## redbeardplumber (Dec 4, 2012)

You mean a better boiler guy than me then. Lol.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

redbeardplumber said:


> You mean a better boiler guy than me then. Lol.


Lol.. yep, had to learn all those electronic controls when they first came out.. man, what a pita.. now everything almost have mistakeproof molex plugs.. too easy for homeowners to fook with it..


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## Burner tech (Oct 24, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Well I did say at some point the Neanderthal approach wasn't a good idea... The 2016 Final Rule will be having a devastating effect on many plumbers that have failed to become proficient with electronic controls. The efficiency standards and emission standards are going to get tougher and tougher, don't think that the 2016 Final Rule will be the last round of tightening standards either. Much like the automotive industry meeting these standards pretty much can only be done with electronic controls, and there will be several rounds of technology improvements. We'll either have to learn how to deal with them or, end up being talked about on a Water Heater Repair Forum as a Low Ball Craigslist Hack that installs water heaters with a taillight guarantee never to be seen again when there is a problem... So if your business is comprised heavily of water heater installation, replacement, & repairs, the writing is on the wall to become proficient with the electronic controls in use today and those coming in the future. If you don't want to then perhaps you should invest in some drain cleaning equipment and get out there snaking out kitchen sink lines, bathtub & shower lines, and main lines, but beware technology will overtake you there as well with companies using cameras, electronic locating, pipe relining, pipe bursting, and highly specialized jetting nozzles. You'll even find an increasing need to use computer generated reports, with video and pictures embedded along with quotes to obtain work, many property managers are doing this today... You are basically going to have to get with the modern technology or, face extinction... Our nice simple gas water heaters and gas heating appliances have seen many changes already. The standing pilot light has turned into intermittent pilot lights, hot surface ignition, and spark ignition. Flame verification is now done with thermopiles, and electronic flame sensors. Increasing numbers of units are using powered dampers, outside combustion air, blowers used in burners and draft inducers, with sensors verifying proper operation to PLC Controls. The time is now to get the education you need to be able to properly troubleshoot these because they aren't going away, and going Neanderthal with a pair of channellock pliers will not get you by....:whistling2: Now... For Panther's problem... The Low Pilot Flame Code: Lets start simple! How does the pilot look is there a proper flame? If the pilot is unstable have you checked the gas supply and made sure the pilot assembly was clean? Is the Thermopile properly positioned in the flame? Are The connections for the thermopile secure? Does the thermopile read between 350mV - 850mV? Nothing here is rocket science... And nothing here needs a whack of the channellocks to wake it up....:laughing: We're all going to have to get better at this stuff... Just my 2¢....



Well said. I've met too many people not willing to keep up with the times in various trades.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

thank you redwood... for being so civil and polite.... 

you are 100% correct in the fact that many heaters are going to be more complicated and harder to work on after 2016.

I have gone to the Rheem proto-type and R+D lab here in Indy to install a few new heaters they are coming up with....
It is not gonna be pretty when a hood fan damper breaks down on one of the new units.. or a spark ignition gives up the gohst... It amazes me that the enjineers cannot install one of these and actually ask us to come in and set them up:blink:... .

some heaters will be going away to never be seen again...
and some folks will probably be out of their league when having to make repairs to problematic water heaters...because its going to be like working on a 90% efficient furnace....

giving the sides of the thermostat a light smack to wake up a stubborn one has worked for me on occasion before having to 
break one down and diagnose the problem with
the home-owner standing over my shoulder... 
I doubt that will work with the newer models comming down the pike... 
..

with that being said.......now wait for it..............wait for it............


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## Burner tech (Oct 24, 2013)

If you are having issues trouble shooting newer units, check with your local reps about factory classes. I've taken some where they will go over their new residential units. Even taking a class for a commercial water heater can go a long for gaining the basics needed to properly trouble shoot a newer high efficient residential unit. Some reps will do on site training, or local two day classes for learning trouble shooting on their units. I've done every different type, and take about one factory class each year, and at least one local class. Even if you don't learn anything new about trouble shooting a unit, you will learn about upcoming design changes or get a good feel for the units weak points. Laars, lochinvar and a.o have good factory classes, rinnia and rheem have some decent local classes. Worst case scenario you can find out if factory techs are in town I've assisted factory guys on multiple jobs to learn what field changes and challenges they are dealing with.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> thank you redwood... for being so civil and polite....
> 
> ...................
> 
> ...


Let me get this straight....
You have a Rheem R&D Lab in Indy....
That you have done work in....
And you haven't gotten the engineers to thoroughly school you on electronic controls? :blink:


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Heck, I don't mind if some plumbers don't learn to diagnose. That's just more for me.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Redwood stated...
Let me get this straight....
You have a Rheem R&D Lab in Indy....
That you have done work in....
And you haven't gotten the engineers to thoroughly school you on electronic controls?


Please..........would everyone just take a chill pill...

yes , we have been in the building twice and installed a
newer hybred heater for them.... the place is not too fancy and the plumbing they have done themselves is pretty bad.... they have a whole row of heaters they are testing in one room for efficiency and reliability...

we also took a newer 50 gal gas low boy hi efficiency heaters to one of the enjineers personal homes and installed it in his garage .....he gets to try one out to see how well they worked....for free...


They might have a class some day, 
but nothing is on the horizion...at this time...
and they are not gonna just do a class for one plumber....


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Chadillac80 said:


> Not sure if this has already been discussed but what's the deal with the Bradford White Honeywells going out after a couple years and won't relit? We've been replacing them like crazzzy around here under warranty. I've done (2) side by side in the same house. The pilot goes out... You relit pilot...green light clicks on... You turn the thermostat up to activate burner annnnnnd NOTHING??? Our co carries replacement gas controls now. I have a couple on my truck now since the dual replacement incident. Anybody dealing with these same issues?


YES...I AM also having the same issues.... I also carry 2 complete controls in my truck...too.....

and I got 10 good control valves and parts sitting on my selves in our office.... that we took off leaking units......

I would like to post some pics of the junk I gathered up this morning...

, what is the best program to upload pictures to this site.... 

my program is a pain in the a//


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## Burner tech (Oct 24, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> YES...I AM also having the same issues.... I also carry 2 complete controls in my truck...too..... and I got 10 good control valves and parts sitting on my selves in our office.... that we took off leaking units...... I would like to post some pics of the junk I gathered up this morning... , what is the best program to upload pictures to this site.... my program is a pain in the a//


That issue sounds like you may have a faulted temp sensor, the service manual will have a resistance chart. But it may also be a faulty control valve


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Burner tech said:


> That issue sounds like you may have a faulted temp sensor, the service manual will have a resistance chart. But it may also be a faulty control valve


Oh yea...
To check it you simply take a pair of channellock pliers and....:whistling2:

Mark... You did get the Service Manual downloaded from Bradford White's website, didn't you?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Oh yea...
> To check it you simply take a pair of channellock pliers and....:whistling2:
> 
> Mark... You did get the Service Manual downloaded from Bradford White's website, didn't you?


 
Oh, hell yes, I got plenty of them...

I was thinking about calling Bradford and telling them about 
my "tapping with the channel lock technique" 
when you cant get the water heater to fire up for the first time out of the box....

thought that they SHOULD put that in their service manuel...

Redwood...it works every time...they chould say something like..

If the water heater seems to be sitting dormant and wont light 
after many attempts, the first time out of the box, before tearing it all down ... simply give it a few "light taps" with your channel lock pliers..

you think they would take me up on that idea>??


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> Oh, hell yes, I got plenty of them...
> 
> I was thinking about calling Bradford and telling them about
> my "tapping with the channel lock technique"
> ...


Probably not with a thermister measuring the temperature and an electronic control...:blink::no:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Probably not with a thermister measuring the temperature and an electronic control...:blink::no:


 
well, being a water heater control... it was built to see some action in its life time... like in a garage... work rooms..ect..
it should be able to take something droppping or banging up against it 


actually I have not had the start up issues with them like back in 2011... they must be on a second or third generation by now


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I'm just sayin....
If I was invited to do some plumbing at a Rheem R&D Facility they would all have to run away from me to stop the questions I'd be asking...:whistling2:

But in my experience most R&D Engineers are itching to be able to talk with guys out in the field about their products...

Itching in a sense of selling their work as good stuff...
Willing to give you a good layman's understanding of how it works...
Looking for additional features someone in the field would like to see on their products...

Usually their feedback is distorted by coming back to them from sales and marketing...


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Redwood said:


> I'm just sayin....
> If I was invited to do some plumbing at a Rheem R&D Facility they would all have to run away from me to stop the questions I'd be asking...:whistling2:
> 
> But in my experience most R&D Engineers are itching to be able to talk with guys out in the field about their products...
> ...


 

My other 2 guys got the honor of going up there..
We have been there twice , once for a plumbing service call , and the second time was to hoook up a heater....
.
I did not get to go because I was too busy banging on a honey-well t-stat that day:laughing::laughing:..

I wish that my my guys would have taken pics of the long line of water heaters they had sitting hooked up with meters and guages on them... 

According to my guys, the tech heads really DO want a lot of feed back from the plumbers in the filed....
on how stuff works in the field, they basically dont have a clue ......


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## Ptturner91 (Oct 13, 2012)

Redwood, you should write a book
I would love to learn more about controls on the new hwt and boilers but there are not many I've been able to find


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Ptturner91 said:


> Redwood, you should write a book
> I would love to learn more about controls on the new hwt and boilers but there are not many I've been able to find


Whales Darby has classes for boiler controls, they are the Taco rep for our area. Beckett also has control classes hands on out in Pennsylvania. And Redwood already wrote a book, but its not on controls.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

theplumbinator said:


> Whales Darby has classes for boiler controls, they are the Taco rep for our area. Beckett also has control classes hands on out in Pennsylvania. And Redwood already wrote a book, but its not on controls.


3 of them actually... :laughing:

I think controls will be the next one....


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## Ptturner91 (Oct 13, 2012)

Redwood said:


> 3 of them actually... :laughing: I think controls will be the next one....


Wait you actually have written books?


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Ptturner91 said:


> Wait you actually have written books?


2 children's book and1 adult steamy novel

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Redwood said:


> 3 of them actually... :laughing:
> 
> I think controls will be the next one....


Where can I get my hands on them??


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Ptturner91 said:


> Wait you actually have written books?


Sure! :laughing:


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

Redwood said:


> Sure! :laughing:


Yes this was the trilogy I was referring to lol...


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Never mind,.... lAughing


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

theplumbinator said:


> Yes this was the trilogy I was referring to lol...


There was a large untapped market for both DIYer Homeowners and Companies needing a text book for their 6-Week Unlicensed Service Technician Training Courses...

On the cover of the Idiots Guide For Electrical is a picture of a fatality, you can if you look closely, see a person standing in front of that panel catching a plasma flame in the belly button...


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## theplumbinator (Sep 6, 2012)

I must say excellent choice on cover art!


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## Chadillac80 (Dec 22, 2012)

Master Mark said:


> YES...I AM also having the same issues.... I also carry 2 complete controls in my truck...too..... and I got 10 good control valves and parts sitting on my selves in our office.... that we took off leaking units...... I would like to post some pics of the junk I gathered up this morning... , what is the best program to upload pictures to this site.... my program is a pain in the a//


 Are you replacing the entire gas control or just changing the control itself? I've been just swapping out the control by taking the cover plate off. Takes no time at all compared to creating a vacuum on the unit and changing the whole thing. Also get this...I called Bradford tech support on the issue and they acted like they had no idea what I'm talking about as far as the valves failing and why. I found that strange...This forum is verify it's not just happening here. To be honest I just want to know what's causing it. Figured they would be able to explain it by now. Why it's happening so maybe I can further diagnose the issue. We've narrowed it down to the control itself but what's going on inside?? State honeywell units have been having the same issues. Not near as many swap outs but I'm now having to carry those on my truck. Same control just different color and stickers. The diagnostic light is even a different color but other than that their the exact same.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

If I have to do it, I prefer just changeing out everything..
My time is worth more to me than fooling around attempting to figure out what the heck is wrong with them....

I dont even trust that sensor back in the plastic port ... we get a lot of calcium and lime build up on them .... 

Its is just wiser to make a clean sweep....and 
give it all back to Bradford adn let them play with it.
We have not had much trouble in the past year....
.

You wont believe how many brand new icon valves in the box I got laying in my shop.... around 9 + of them

Bradford has just given me a good number of them to keep me happy, and they are beginning to stack up. I took pictures of my stash, but they wont up-load here for me 


When they first came out in 2010, it was hell to get them to light in under 3 minutes....Experience a second floor water heater with the owner standing over your shoulder...tick ..tock..tick ....tock.. and the heater refuses to light..... 


The newer valves seem to be doing much better, and I have not had to rap them lightly with my channel locks to wake them and shake them out of their funk.....



Over time.....I think that This is gonna get ugly, and I hope that Honeywell keeps them inter-changeable with each other so I dont have to carry 5 or 6 different styles..



wait for it, wait for it....


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Olemissplumber said:


> When checking thermocouples it's best to test them under load. Robertshaw makes a test adapter for this.
> 
> Or you can just be a parts changer and guess till you win.


Most people don't want to pay for an hr or hrs of testing,most had rather have you install new parts for the money they are spending,you can test several hundred bucks away and in the end you are gonna install new anyways.im not against troubleshooting/testing but I give customer what they want for their money


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sparky said:


> Most people don't want to pay for an hr or hrs of testing,most had rather have you install new parts for the money they are spending,you can test several hundred bucks away and in the end you are gonna install new anyways.im not against troubleshooting/testing but I give customer what they want for their money


Not to worry... :laughing:
He was a small time hack making big time jack...

You had to be here to understand...:yes:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> Most people don't want to pay for an hr or hrs of testing,most had rather have you install new parts for the money they are spending,you can test several hundred bucks away and in the end you are gonna install new anyways.im not against troubleshooting/testing but I give customer what they want for their money


 

very well stated.... 

with the Bradfords, I hear it all the time .... are you gonna charge me for the parts....I thought with the bradfords all the parts are free for 6 years.... and cant you just change everything so I dont have to worry about it acting up again??


how many trips back out do you make 
and how many times do you charge your customer
chaseing ghosts in the system and looking like a doof??

it makes better sense to just make them happy:thumbsup:


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> Redwood stated...
> Let me get this straight....
> You have a Rheem R&D Lab in Indy....
> That you have done work in....
> ...


Man mark what you do to these guys????lololol


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

If something as simple as the Honeywell control requires hours and hours of testing and troubleshooting I'd hate to be the customer that calls you to troubleshoot a condensing gas water heater or, a tankless water heater...:laughing:

I mean come on...
It's about as simple as it gets...

It's a PLC Board with:

Inputs:
Power and flame sensing via thermopile
Thermister for tank temperature sensing

Outputs:
Gas Valve on for main supply & pilot
Gas Valve on for main burner...


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Sounds like some of theses guys wacks off to electronics today magazines!!!!lololo


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

I was too busy banging ......

He said he was to busy banging lolololololo


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Redwood said:


> Not to worry... :laughing:
> He was a small time hack making big time jack...
> 
> You had to be here to understand...:yes:


Sorry red we can't all be the smartest best plumber there is like yourself,if we don't believe you all we gots to do is just ASK you


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> Sounds like some of theses guys wacks off to electronics today magazines!!!!lololo


 
I agree with that.....
for some reason they get off on thinking of themselves as the " plumbinator" or mr fix-it... 

I think they wack off reading techincal info till they are cross-eyed....

Its ok, because everybody has to have their release......:laughing:.

its what this forum is all about....
and its better than hanging out at some bar


everyone takes their turn running the guantlet....
if you cant handle it.... get out before your get hurt feelings


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> I agree with that.....
> for some reason they get off on thinking of themselves as the " plumbinator" or mr fix-it...
> 
> I think they wack off reading techincal info till they are cross-eyed....
> ...


Exactly,nobody here gonna hurt my feelings,I can take it and I can give it,it's on a computer screen,I mean really???


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> Exactly,nobody here gonna hurt my feelings,I can take it and I can give it,it's on a computer screen,I mean really???


 
well, I think recently I must have drove a
 stake in a couple of their wittle hearts....
and I really did not mean to .

and that has given one of them a "throbbing hard-on" for me ever since......:laughing:.

you tell them what you do to remedy a situation and
they jump you like a pack of wolves....

its ok.... for me at least its all in fun
but for a few others they kind of concern me...

its best to just let it slide off ..... like sewage....


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> .:laughing:.
> 
> you tell them what you do to remedy a situation and
> they jump you like a pack of wolves....
> ...


Yep I agree wit ya on this,you know mark I pray that my life NEVER gets so routine and shall I say boring that I have to resort to attacking people thru a computer screen just to prove to myself that I have read more manuals and had way to much time on my hands to prove that I'm some sort of self proclaimed plumbing genius or whatever the case may be,I really do pray that that time never comes for this ole boy.what you bet most can't even stand to be around their wives either.hope that never happens to me....


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