# Water temp and water heaters



## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Its possible for a water heater to heat water hotter than the thermostat setting if the user's draw small amounts of hot water. What if it burns sombody...whos to blame? Is anyone to blame? Should every water heater have a thermomixer?


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

*?*

Not sure what you mean, defective t-stat? I have seen that happen. But *most water heater t-stats work fine and shut off the heat source when the temperature of the water reaches the setting of the t-stat.* If a t-stat is defective, then the manufacturer is to blame, unless its out of warranty. Then its "an act of god" as they say in legalese when there is no one else to blame.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

service guy said:


> *?*
> 
> Not sure what you mean, defective t-stat? I have seen that happen. But *most water heater t-stats work fine and shut off the heat source when the temperature of the water reaches the setting of the t-stat.* If a t-stat is defective, then the manufacturer is to blame, unless its out of warranty. Then its "an act of god" as they say in legalese when there is no one else to blame.


 lets say for example a 40 gal. standard residental electric water heater. The thermostats are functioning perfectly. However the temp will exceed the thermostats setting and vary from day to day. Its called "stacking". Its from making small draws from the water heater.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

The small amounts of hot water needs clarification for me(because its the end of the day and I havent had dinner yet)..and yes to a thermomixer..its about time to have a double safety against scald if they are going to sue everybody.


Oh I just read above post..scratch the clarify...


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> lets say for example a 40 gal. standard residental electric water heater. The thermostats are functioning perfectly. However the temp will exceed the thermostats setting and vary from day to day. Its called "stacking". Its from making small draws from the water heater.


I never heard of it. I thought that most thermostats have a built-in margin. So if you set it at 120º F then the t-stat won't turn on until the water dips to 115º for example, and then will turn off again once the water reaches 120º. In that case, the water would never go above 120º.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*thermostat settings*

The water heater cos send the heaters out on lukewarm
because they have been sued too many times....

then someone has to turn them up once they are out
of the box...

I have always left the lower thermostat on the factory
setting and turned up the upper t stat to 125....

.never had a problem with overheating or stacking..



you probably have a sticking defective thermostat, 
change both of them and see if it goes away


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> The water heater cos send the heaters out on lukewarm
> because they have been sued too many times....
> 
> then someone has to turn them up once they are out
> ...


 Theres no problem...this is a hypothetical situation.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Well, the plumber will be named in the suit regardless...even if he didnt touch the thermostat...the insurance company will go wobble legs and settle...the plumbers rates will eventually go up if he gets to keep his policy...if a child was burnt then the newspapers will help expose the act of neglect that surely must have taken place...the water heater manufacturer will hire Barry Scheck the mega lawyer and the plumber will end up greeting people at Wal-mart. 
Thats how I see it going down.


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## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

Forget Walmart, go work at the orange box. Then sell water heaters to unsuspecting HO's telling them all to crank them way up. Then when the big orange stops selling these money losers we will regain some of our work.


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## Pipedoc (Jun 14, 2009)

service guy said:


> ....... In that case, the water would never go above 120º.


:no: Hot water stacking can and will happen in vertical tanks.

A recirculating line will help prevent this from happening.

If you set your temps to code I don't see how you could be liable all though it won't prevent you from getting sued. 

I am always very concerned about this issue and I always make sure to write on my invoices all of the folowing info....

Water temp setting
Checked for water and gas leaks
Checked for proper flue draft
Explained care and operating instructions to client
Eplained scalding dangers to client

Anyone who works for me who does not follow these procedures find themselves in hot water really quick!

Remember to CYA - If you didn't say it in writing on the invoice, you didn't say it.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Ill fix your heater TM. Well start with piping it in with 1/2" pvc for the hot and cold. Next, we wont even install a relief vavle. We can just plug in off. Then, we crank both thermos to max settings, thats after we change out to the biggest elements we can find. That should just about do it.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Ill fix your heater TM. Well start with piping it in with 1/2" pvc for the hot and cold. Next, we wont even install a relief vavle. We can just plug in off. Then, we crank both thermos to max settings, thats after we change out to the biggest elements we can find. That should just about do it.


 Where did you learn your plumbing skills....the Home Depot saturday 11am plumbing workshop tuturial given by ROY the plumbing Pro:laughing:


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## leak1 (Mar 25, 2009)

hey rsp- dont forget to use sharkbites instead of unions!!!:whistling2:


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Ill fix your heater TM. Well start with piping it in with 1/2" pvc for the hot and cold. Next, we wont even install a relief vavle. We can just plug in off. Then, we crank both thermos to max settings, thats after we change out to the biggest elements we can find. That should just about do it.


And throw it outdoors, that way you will have more storage area inside


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I always open the upper and lower covers, make sure it's set to 120 since it was shipped halfway across the united states and vibration can alter the settings...


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> I always open the upper and lower covers, make sure it's set to 120 since it was shipped halfway across the united states and vibration can alter the settings...



im going to put that theory to the test tomorrow. Im going to set a thermostat on my dash board and go down a bumby dirt road, and see if it moves the dial. Then after that test, I am going to lay one on a slab, and break out the jackhammer, and see if that does it. And my final varible for the Hypothisis stated above by DB, i will mail one to my cousin walt via USPS. Then, after the test are final. I will post my results.:thumbsup:


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Sears/Kenmore water heaters are shipped from out west. 

That's a lot of states on a truck...most likely by train.

I find a lot of those thermostats off, way off and AO SMITH makes those thermostats that are too easy to adjust.


Years ago, you absolutely had to use a screwdriver to adjust them.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Its a good idea to check both ..120 is so tepid though..its a screwy law that makes plumbers or anyone liable for a higher temp.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Ill have to use a NASA certified torque wrench to see exactly the amount of Torque it would take to turn those dials on the waterheaters mentioned above. Then, set a sesmic measuring device next to a train track, to measure the amount of vibration on said train. Should be intresting.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

stillaround said:


> Its a good idea to check both ..120 is so tepid though..its a screwy law that makes plumbers or anyone liable for a higher temp.


120ºF is not tepid! That setting might feel tepid in many homes because of heat loss. By the time the water reaches the faucet, it has usually dropped temperature quite a bit.
In my house, the bathrooms are located DIRECTLY over the water heaters and with very little heat loss, the 120ºF water straight on the skin is plenty darn hot!


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

I just found this picture from a thread last year...talk about a lawsuit waiting to happen! Classic ingenuity though.:laughing:


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> im going to put that theory to the test tomorrow. Im going to set a thermostat on my dash board and go down a bumby dirt road, and see if it moves the dial. Then after that test, I am going to lay one on a slab, and break out the jackhammer, and see if that does it. And my final varible for the Hypothisis stated above by DB, i will mail one to my cousin walt via USPS. Then, after the test are final. I will post my results.:thumbsup:



Well.... in over 20 years I've never seen one out of adjustment from the factory. I highly doubt vibration will move the little dial, just don't see that ever happening. Let us know the results of your test.:whistling2::laughing:


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Seriouly though. I think that the yahoos putting them together at the factorys, just put them in and go. Just messing wit my boy Dunbar.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Seriouly though. I think that the yahoos putting them together at the factorys, just put them in and go. Just messing wit my boy Dunbar.



I still check them anyway, just to turn them up! Up here in the great white north 120 just doesn't cut it in the winter.


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

service guy said:


> 120ºF is not tepid! That setting might feel tepid in many homes because of heat loss. By the time the water reaches the faucet, it has usually dropped temperature quite a bit.
> In my house, the bathrooms are located DIRECTLY over the water heaters and with very little heat loss, the 120ºF water straight on the skin is plenty darn hot!


 I dont have to move my hand until after 125. And the temperature my wife bathes in turns the skin pink. If ever she draws a bath for me anymore Im very careful...guy could get hurt..and I cant sue her.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

stillaround said:


> I dont have to move my hand until after 125. And the temperature my wife bathes in turns the skin pink. If ever she draws a bath for me anymore Im very careful...guy could get hurt..and I cant sue her.


I know what you mean. I had mine set at 125º but it was a bit too hot. Couldn't even stand it without mixing it with cold, I turned them down to 120º and its plenty hot still. But, again, I live in the south and have a very short distance between the heaters and the fixtures. If I still lived in the old, drafty Vermont home I grew up in, 120º settings certainly wouldn't cut it!


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

120 is not hot enough when they have a pressure balanced scald guard faucet that doesn't have independent temp control. Theres always alittle cold mixing in the cartridge and you have a volume drop by having it in the full hot position. After the first draw on a 50 gal the next guy gets a cold shower.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Stacking can happen in a tank water heater.
Usually Gas because of the more aggressive heating rates.
A series of short draws of hot water usually 3 gallons or less cause burner to light.
Or course the burner is heating the cold water that came down to the bottom of the tank in the dip tube but it is also heating the water at the top of the tank.
The different temperature water stacks in layers with the hottest at the top of the tank.
Despite the setting of the thermostat at a safe temperature the water at the top of the tank when stacking occurs can be in the 200 degree F range and cause scalding.
There have been instances of T&P activation from stacking.

Tempering on the outlet or, recirculation both will prevent safety problems.


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## service guy (Jun 26, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Stacking can happen in a tank water heater.
> Usually Gas because of the more aggressive heating rates.
> A series of short draws of hot water usually 3 gallons or less cause burner to light.
> Or course the burner is heating the cold water that came down to the bottom of the tank in the dip tube but it is also heating the water at the top of the tank.
> ...


Learned something yet again! Thats why I come here. Learning is good.:thumbsup:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Plumber is in a no win situation. How many of you wait for the water heater to completely heat up and test the water temperature? Thermostats can be off 5 degrees in either direction.

We get countless complaints when the weather turns cold that the water heater keeps running out of hot water. Of course, it's related to the incoming water temperature and the HO wants it turned up.

Ideally, all manufacturers would be required to make water heaters with thermostats that are 100% accurate. In addition, I would like to see all water heaters have a control panel that the HO could control their own temperature so no plumber would be put in a position of arguing with a HO as to why the T-stat cannot be turned up.

I understand it's a safety issue - BUT COME ON! If a HO wants his water to be set at 130 - I believe that is his right. IF someone is burned when using his hot water - HE SHOULD BE HELD LIABLE!

We can get burned using ovens / stoves too. A little common sense is in order.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I know I'm going to get laughed at here but........How do you install a tempering valve AND a recirc system without a small tempering tank?

How could a mixing valve work in a recirc situation? It relies on the introduction of cold water into the hot water stream to temper the water under flow. When cold water is not flowing in but the pump is running, how is the tempering valve going to temper the water?

I can think of no piping arrangement that would make this work. The only way I can see to do it is to install a small tempering tank (like an Ariston) in the recirc loop to hold the temperature when not under hot water demand. 



Redwood said:


> Stacking can happen in a tank water heater.
> Usually Gas because of the more aggressive heating rates.
> A series of short draws of hot water usually 3 gallons or less cause burner to light.
> Or course the burner is heating the cold water that came down to the bottom of the tank in the dip tube but it is also heating the water at the top of the tank.
> ...


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Plumber is in a no win situation. How many of you wait for the water heater to completely heat up and test the water temperature? Thermostats can be off 5 degrees in either direction.
> 
> We get countless complaints when the weather turns cold that the water heater keeps running out of hot water. Of course, it's related to the incoming water temperature and the HO wants it turned up.
> 
> ...


 I agree and thats why insurance costs so much.....thats why everything costs more. Insurance companies pay out too quick for fear of going to court. I think all water heater should have a user adjustable thermostat at the heat source that does not require turning off the power or removing covers with screws. I hate whirlpoo but they do/did make an electric that is user friendly to adjust. see we can agree:laughing:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Here is the future according to Matt:
[crystal ball]
Water heaters in all homes will be set to 140 to eliminate bacterial growth in the WH and piping. There will be thermostatic mixing valves at the fixture to temper the water down to 110 ish. Dishwashers and clothes washers will recieve untempered 140 degree water [/crystal ball]

These code changes will come to fruition to make the water supply safer AND to give the tankless market share a huge hurdle to overcome.

I hope I'm wrong but, these are the rumbles I hear in the distance


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Protech said:


> I know I'm going to get laughed at here but........How do you install a tempering valve AND a recirc system without a small tempering tank?
> 
> How could a mixing valve work in a recirc situation? It relies on the introduction of cold water into the hot water stream to temper the water under flow. When cold water is not flowing in but the pump is running, how is the tempering valve going to temper the water?
> 
> I can think of no piping arrangement that would make this work. The only way I can see to do it is to install a small tempering tank (like an Ariston) in the recirc loop to hold the temperature when not under hot water demand.


 
recirc with a tempering valve:

circ pump pumps back to the cold feed of the WH as well as the cold side feed of the thermostatic mixing valve. the mixing valve dictates what path the recirc takes.

I can sketch this if it isn't clear to you.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> Here is the future according to Matt:
> [crystal ball]
> Water heaters in all homes will be set to 140 to eliminate bacterial growth in the WH and piping. There will be thermostatic mixing valves at the fixture to temper the water down to 110 ish. Dishwashers and clothes washers will recieve untempered 140 degree water [/crystal ball]
> 
> ...


? - Setting the temp to 140 will cost a lot in energy use. With the tide going in the green direction, won't this be a huge hurdle to overcome?

Other than being stuck with water at the 110ish temperature - why do you hope you are wrong?

Seems to me that these requirements will create more work for plumbers, protect the health of the nation (no bacteria), and protect from scalds.

Downside?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> Here is the future according to Matt:
> [crystal ball]
> Water heaters in all homes will be set to 140 to eliminate bacterial growth in the WH and piping. There will be thermostatic mixing valves at the fixture to temper the water down to 110 ish. Dishwashers and clothes washers will recieve untempered 140 degree water [/crystal ball]
> 
> ...


 Quit putting all my threads together before i do:furious::thumbsup:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> ? - Setting the temp to 140 will cost a lot in energy use. With the tide going in the green direction, won't this be a huge hurdle to overcome?
> 
> Other than being stuck with water at the 110ish temperature - why do you hope you are wrong?
> 
> ...


I think green goes out the window if safety is an issue. Right now, low WH tank temps are in bacteria's wheelhouse for growth. 

I hope I'm wrong because if I am correct, tankless heaters will be DOA. I don't know a terrible amount about them but, I don't see a tankless getting that kind of temperature rise.

When I started repiping schools in 1999 we generally set 3 199,000 btu WH's piped in parallel spitting out 140 degree water to a thermostatic mixing valve located in the boiler room. It then discharged 110 degree water to the schools circulating loops. 

About 3 years ago I started pumping 140 degree water in the loops with thermosatic mixing valves under each fixture. 

In the future, I bet this will be implemented in residential. Even written into the model codes.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Kinda throws a wrench in that stupid manabloc system too doesn't it.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I don't know much about pex.....

Manabloc? 

It is a water distribution header for pex?

140 would feed through the block to thermostatic mixing valves at the fixtures.

Are these systems not rated for 140 degree water?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> I don't know much about pex.....
> 
> Manabloc?
> 
> ...


You have one main header with valves attached...each hot oulet gets either a 1/2 id pipe or a 3/8 id pipe. Pex yes. Its a homerun system. How would you do a loop when each oulet is piped independent


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## Pipedoc (Jun 14, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> recirc with a tempering valve:
> 
> circ pump pumps back to the cold feed of the WH as well as the cold side feed of the thermostatic mixing valve. the mixing valve dictates what path the recirc takes.
> 
> I can sketch this if it isn't clear to you.


 
Please do ILP.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

You can still feed 140 to the fixtures without a loop. 

Yes the water will cool off in the line but, whe the 140 rolls through the bacteria would not be happy. Chances are, the fixture would be used enough to prevent any growth.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Pipedoc said:


> Please do ILP.


I am doing factory shut down work tomorrow. I will draw it and scan it in Monday.


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## Pipedoc (Jun 14, 2009)

Thanks ILP.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> You can still feed 140 to the fixtures without a loop.
> 
> Yes the water will cool off in the line but, whe the 140 rolls through the bacteria would not be happy. Chances are, the fixture would be used enough to prevent any growth.


 Ah but thats the problem....houses are getting bigger and bigger with more and more fixtures and now they are doing homeruns and they have 4 and 5 baths in the house that never really get used. its just too much pipe in the system thats really not needed. i think the homerun system should be outlawed unless it has special purpose.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I think a 5 bath house would also have a circulating loop.


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## gusty60 (Oct 21, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> I am doing factory shut down work tomorrow. I will draw it and scan it in Monday.


 Strange. My buddy and I were just pondering the same question yesterday! I think I know what you are saying but the sketch would be much appreciated! gusty60


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Protech said:


> I know I'm going to get laughed at here but........How do you install a tempering valve AND a recirc system without a small tempering tank?
> 
> How could a mixing valve work in a recirc situation? It relies on the introduction of cold water into the hot water stream to temper the water under flow. When cold water is not flowing in but the pump is running, how is the tempering valve going to temper the water?
> 
> I can think of no piping arrangement that would make this work. The only way I can see to do it is to install a small tempering tank (like an Ariston) in the recirc loop to hold the temperature when not under hot water demand.


In most cases it would be a one or the other and either will provide safety.
However,
IP has outlined how to run tempering with a recirculation loop.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Here is how leonard does it

http://leonardvalve.industrysuite.c...uctFile.asp?i=LeonardValve|2996|PDF|S-M21.pdf


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Why would you pipe the return to the hot side? I would think that you would pipe it to the cold side only with a check valve on the pump.



ILPlumber said:


> recirc with a tempering valve:
> 
> circ pump pumps back to the cold feed of the WH as well as the cold side feed of the thermostatic mixing valve. the mixing valve dictates what path the recirc takes.
> 
> I can sketch this if it isn't clear to you.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

see pics


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

The tempered return line should connect to both the cold inlet of the tempering valve and the cold inlet into the heater with a ballvalve installed on the pipe leading from the tempered line to the cold inlet of the water heater to balance the system. In periods of "NO Draw" by allowing the major volume of return water to supply the cold inlet of the tempering valve and the minor volume of return water to be reheated and supply the hot inlet to the tempering valve. This is how you fine tune the system.
(1) close the ball valve and set the temp on the mixing valve with water flowing from the tempered line.
(2)After getting the temp set right stop the water flow.
(3)Crack the ballvalve so a small amount of water is returned to the hot water source. This allows the mixing valve to maintain the the correct temp during "no draw" periods.
(4)During "no draw" the temp should not rise above the mixing valves setting...if it does close the valve slightly....if it drops below the setting then open it slightly. You really need to install a thermometer for this.
.........................................................................................................
No extra tank needed but you need the ballvalve to fine tune becuase you cant add water to a system under "no draw" conditions to maintain a stable temp.


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

For the re-cir return line, we pull the drain from the bottom of the heater and tee it in, with a ball valve and in-line check on the return line.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

ESPinc said:


> For the re-cir return line, we pull the drain from the bottom of the heater and tee it in, with a ball valve and in-line check on the return line.


 
:yes:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Why does that work better than what I have drawn?



ESPinc said:


> For the re-cir return line, we pull the drain from the bottom of the heater and tee it in, with a ball valve and in-line check on the return line.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I outlined above how to install a thermomixing valve with recirculated tempered water with the mixing valve installed at the source.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't see how your plan is any differen't than mine themaster. The difference is the ball valve. Did I read that wrong?

Could you draw an iso for me?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> I don't see how your plan is any differen't than mine themaster. The difference is the ball valve. Did I read that wrong?
> 
> Could you draw an iso for me?


http://www.symmons.com/Contractors-and-Engineers/Products/~/media/Files/Installation%20PDFs/tempcontrol_ins.ashx
Look at pipe iso #2 and read the print under it. I guess I'm not the only one whos knows just enough to be dangerous.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

"Look at pipe iso #2 and read the print under it. I guess I'm not the only one whos knows just enough to be dangerous."

No need to get venomous dude, we are just having a discussion. You’re crossing threads here. I said in the other thread "I don't want you to think I'm trying to insult you. You are a very experienced plumber and I value your input on things. I just think in this case you don't know the whole story."

What does stating that you don't know the whole story on flat rate have to do with this discussion in this thread? Or are you just lashing out because you're angry? WTF????


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Now to get back on topic......


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Your diagram:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

My diagram:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

OK, so now that we have both diagrams up, can you tell me what purpose that extra loop and valve serves in your version?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Oh, never mind. I was so busy with drawing I didn't read below the diagram in the link you provided.

For everyone reading:

*Diagram 2​*​​​​INSTALLATION WITH RECIRCULATING TEMPERED WATER
AT HOT WATER SOURCE: TempControl must have the return line
connected exactly as shown. This procedure allows the controller to
maintain the set temperature during periods of no draw by (a)
allowing the major volume of return water to supply the cold inlet of
the TempControl and (b) the minor volume of return water to be
reheated and supply the hot inlet of the TempControl. When there is
no water draw on the plumbing system, no water can be added to
the system; therefore, the “cold” and “hot” supplies to the TempControl
must come from within the system as described below using the
ball valve for fine tuning the operation as outlined in (a) and (b)
above.
1. With ball valve closed, set TempControl to desired temperature
with water flowing from tempered water line.
2. After obtaining desired temperature, stop the water flow.
3. Crack the ball valve open so that a small amount of water is
returned to the hot water source. This allows the TempControl
to maintain the set temperature during periods of no
draw on the system.
4. During no draw, observe the thermometer on the discharge
of the TempControl. If the temperature increases above the
setting in Step 1, close the ball valve slightly or if temperature​
decreases, open it slightly.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> OK, so now that we have both diagrams up, can you tell me what purpose that extra loop and valve serves in your version?


If you will go back to the PDF I posted the link of, the PRINT will tell you what the ballvalve does. The sketch you made by hand was way off. I was clearing that up. I used your exact words you said to me only mine were in context and fit the situation. if you dont want it said back to you then I suggest you not say it to others......i was taught that in kindergarden.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Off topic drama: 

Well the problem is the context. In this thread, I already pointed out in the beginning that I didn't know how to do this, hence the reason for me asking the questions. You then tell me I know just enough to be dangerous, which isn't true because I've never done anything like this before and I wouldn't until I was confident that I knew what I was doing 1st. And that is exactly why I'm asking the questions I'm asking.
Where as you (in the other thread) were just hurling attacks at the other party without even making an attempt to understand their side off things.
So it isn't actually true that I know just enough to be dangerous. You how ever, don't know how the flat rate system works and yet you hurl attacks at those who do even though you know nothing about them or how they do things. It is for that reason that I said "you know just enough to be dangerous." You are actively persecuting those how do flat rate even though you don't fully understand it. It takes several months of doing flat rate every day for a service tech to start get the hang off it.

On topic stuff:

What is the extent that this "fine tuning/balancing loop" serves? If it's not installed will the temp on the recirc loop just drift a few degrees off of what you set it to under full flow? Or will the loop crash all the way to the hot or cold temps?

And I don't think my sketch was "way off" as it is essentially the same thing you linked to minus the thermometers and the "balancing loop". I would say it is 90% the same or am I mistaken?


TheMaster said:


> If you will go back to the PDF I posted the link of, the PRINT will tell you what the ballvalve does. The sketch you made by hand was way off. I was clearing that up. I used your exact words you said to me only mine were in context and fit the situation. if you dont want it said back to you then I suggest you not say it to others......i was taught that in kindergarden.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Go to the trouble shooting section of the pdf link I posted and all the answers to your questions are there. If you pipe it like the hand drawn sketch you posted it will cause all kinds of problems.......the second iso you posted would have worked better but the balancing ballvalve was omitted in that one,so it wasn't right either.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Could you please explain what is so different about my 2 drawings? (the hand drawn one and the modified version of the one from the pdf)


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

So it sounds like what that PDF is saying is if you omit the "balancing/tuning loop" the tempered water loop will climb up about 10-15 degrees higher than what it is set at under full flow, when it's circulating under no hot water demand.


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## Rootster (May 21, 2009)

every home i go into i check the water temp and write it down on my invoice if it is over 125 i explain the dangers and write it down and have them sign it and intial next to the explanation and always check water pressure over 80 psi i offer a prv (check temp with thermomiter)


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

:whistling2:



Protech said:


> Could you please explain what is so different about my 2 drawings? (the hand drawn one and the modified version of the one from the pdf)


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Protech said:


> :whistling2:


 All I will say is study the piping yourself. your missing componets and it wouldn't work the way its intended and the way you had it drawn would be a liability issue is all I'm saying. Its wrong and it could cause the temp to be 15 degrees higher than the setting due to improper installation. So before i get in trouble thats all I'm gonna say about this or the flatrate stuff. I hafta go to work now...water heater just popped across town.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Some folks do use a ball valve for balancing. This is referred to as "method 2 piping" 

It is not the preferred method to pipe a thermostatic mixing valve with a circulating loop.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> Some folks do use a ball valve for balancing. This is referred to as "method 2 piping"
> 
> It is not the preferred method to pipe a thermostatic mixing valve with a circulating loop.


 I totally agree:thumbsup:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I'll draw my iso tomorrow. I'm tired. 12.5 hours today. Flat rated for $7400:laughing:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> I'll draw my iso tomorrow. I'm tired. 12.5 hours today. Flat rated for $7400:laughing:


 What happened to church? I thought you didn't work on sunday? Anyway good score thats some nice change for 1.5 days work!:thumbsup:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Factory runs production 6 days per week. No choice. 

I don't have to go to a building to "go to church"

Anyway.... Back to topic.

Sorry I got it off track.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> Here is the future according to Matt:
> [crystal ball]
> Water heaters in all homes will be set to 140 to eliminate bacterial growth in the WH and piping. There will be thermostatic mixing valves at the fixture to temper the water down to 110 ish. Dishwashers and clothes washers will recieve untempered 140 degree water [/crystal ball]
> 
> ...


I believe that you will find an exemption granted for tankless

The reasoning that you are giving is the growth of Legionella Bacteria.
The amount of time the water sits in the "Ideal Growth Temperature Range" for Legionella Bacteria is the problem. Considering the temperature affects the growth of Legionella as follows...


Below 20 °C (68 °F) - Can survive but are dormant, even below freezing
20 to 50 °C (68 to 122 °F) - Growth range
35 to 46 °C (95 to 115 °F) - Ideal growth range
50 to 55 °C (122 to 131 °F) - Can survive but do not multiply
At 55 °C (131 °F) - 95% die
At 60 °C (140 °F) - Legionella dies instantly - pasteurisation occurs.

With a tankless The water is quickly heated to the use temperature only while being used. After the water flow stops the water in the pipes and heater itself are rapidly cooling out of the ideal growth range.
vs.
Water sitting in a tank constantly maintained in "Ideal Range"

You may see bacteria growth problems in tankless systems with recirculation loops. Some modification to these systems will probably be included.

I too am convinced that there are changes coming in the code for higher water temps and scald protection at the point of use.

Cash Acme is owned by a Australian company Reliance Worldwide Corp. and in Australia from my understanding this higher temperature is already in effect. Cash Acme has some pretty good information on this subject check the link below.
Cash Acme Legionella Info Page


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Wow! Ya'll are smart! Sometimes I forget this is a plumbing forum, and think I'm back in school lost once again.....:laughing:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Drawing as promised.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

The thermostatic mixing valve dictates the path the water takes. If the system needs a small amount of hot added to maintain temp. The valve takes care of it. 

There is no need to have "method 2 piping" with a manual balancing valve if you install a quality thermmostatic mixing valve. You want a valve that will spit out a constant temp. no matter what the flow. Low or high. 

I am not a fan of high/low dual mixing valve systems for this reason.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> The thermostatic mixing valve dictates the path the water takes. If the system needs a small amount of hot added to maintain temp. The valve takes care of it.
> 
> There is no need to have "method 2 piping" with a manual balancing valve if you install a quality thermmostatic mixing valve. You want a valve that will spit out a constant temp. no matter what the flow. Low or high.
> 
> I am not a fan of high/low dual mixing valve systems for this reason.


What brand do you consider a quality mixing valve? I'd like to read their installation instructions.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Well done ILPlumber. What mixer what you use?


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

I'd love to know how they add cold water under "no draw" condition and consistantly have the proper temp setting on the circulation loop. I bet they are SKY high if its made.......my symmons mixer costs about 400 bucks....and sombody i know almost had a fit when i told them that.....they wanted to stick with a 100.00 mixer as they claimed it worked just fine. I love learning about PRODUCTS here on the plumbing zone.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Protech said:


> Well done ILPlumber. What mixer what you use?


 
Thank you for the compliment. They are few and far between on the PZ.

I solely install Holby mixing valves. They are the best valve on the market.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I'd love to know how they add cold water under "no draw" condition and consistantly have the proper temp setting on the circulation loop. I bet they are SKY high if its made.......my symmons mixer costs about 400 bucks....and sombody i know almost had a fit when i told them that.....they wanted to stick with a 100.00 mixer as they claimed it worked just fine. I love learning about PRODUCTS here on the plumbing zone.


 
They do not add cold water during periods of no draw. The water will cool of in the loop. It will not heat up in the loop. 

The returned water either:

Takes the path through the cold feed of the mixing valve right back into the loop.

OR, if the water has cooled off any, even 1 degree.

The cold feed of the mixing valve will slightly shut. Therefore forcing water to be pumped through the WH into the hot feed of the mixing valve. Just enough to maintain temperature.

It is an ingenious design. These mixers cost substantially more than $100 or $400. You get what you pay for. I sell excellence, in materials and workmanship.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> They do not add cold water during periods of no draw. The water will cool of in the loop. It will not heat up in the loop.
> 
> The returned water either:
> 
> ...


 I agree they are nice valves and I'm glad to have learned about them...the only catch is the circ pump must RUN ALL THE TIME for it to work properly.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I agree they are nice valves and I'm glad to have learned about them...the only catch is the circ pump must RUN ALL THE TIME for it to work properly.


I don't see that as a catch. Although, I knew you would find something to knit pick. 

The circ pump is so small, there will be no issues. Try again........

There is 1 other knit pick you haven't addressed. You can kill yourself looking for it.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

By the way,
I usually use a Bell and Gosset PL-30B for circulating pumps

1/12th horsepower

Holby does not require continuous operation of the circ pump. While they show it that way in their drawings. There is nothing preventing the end user from using an aquastat controlled circ pump on a small loop.

I never do though. Most of the facilities I do have large loops. The pump would probably never shut off anyway.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> I don't see that as a catch. Although, I knew you would find something to knit pick.
> 
> The circ pump is so small, there will be no issues. Try again........
> 
> There is 1 other knit pick you haven't addressed. You can kill yourself looking for it.


I see that as a catch because you cant have a circ pump that only runs when needed to keep the loop to temp. The system requirments have changed now with a circ pump that has to run all the time or the temp may be 15 degrees hotter. call it knit picking if you wish:thumbsup: I call it spec's of the system:thumbsup: Theres really no need to look any more as one catch is as good as 50.
If I where trying to knit-pick I would have looked at the entire thing close...I glanced at it and saw that right from the start,sounds like you already knit picked your own answer before you posted it. Good work:thumbsup:


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> The thermostatic mixing valve dictates the path the water takes. If the system needs a small amount of hot added to maintain temp. The valve takes care of it.
> 
> There is no need to have "method 2 piping" with a manual balancing valve if you install a quality thermmostatic mixing valve. You want a valve that will spit out a constant temp. no matter what the flow. Low or high.
> 
> I am not a fan of high/low dual mixing valve systems for this reason.


 But there is a need for the balancing valve if you do not want the circ pump to run 24/7.:thumbsup:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> But there is a need for the balancing valve if you do not want the circ pump to run 24/7.:thumbsup:


 Please tell me why there is a need. (There is not)

What would this valve be balancing? (Nothing)


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> I see that as a catch because you cant have a circ pump that only runs when needed to keep the loop to temp. The system requirments have changed now with a circ pump that has to run all the time or the temp may be 15 degrees hotter. call it knit picking if you wish:thumbsup: I call it spec's of the system:thumbsup: Theres really no need to look any more as one catch is as good as 50.
> If I where trying to knit-pick I would have looked at the entire thing close...I glanced at it and saw that right from the start,sounds like you already knit picked your own answer before you posted it. Good work:thumbsup:


 
15 degrees hotter? (WTF)

Specs of the system. (We are speaking in hypotheticals, we're trying to help each other understand, right?)

I don't knit pick my own answers. You do enough of that for all the other 2000 members of this forum. And then some.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

this is how we do it


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## Pipedoc (Jun 14, 2009)

Thanks a bunch ILP. :thumbsup: That clears things up for me.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

OK themaster, what would you say to this: http://www.holby.com/images/indeximage/Page 11.pdf

:whistling2:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Holby does require the recirc pump to run continuously. Why? I do not know. Yet....


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Well, he was right about the pump having to run continuously though:
www.holby.com/images/indeximage/5a.pdf


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

ILPlumber said:


> I don't see that as a catch. Although, I knew you would find something to knit pick.
> 
> The circ pump is so small, there will be no issues. Try again........
> 
> There is 1 other knit pick you haven't addressed. You can kill yourself looking for it.


Okay, I'll jump in here. Not just to be another smarta$$ but only my own 2¢.
As far as the pump running continuously it is moot. The power draw from a 1/12 or 1/16 hp pump is far less than the standby heat loss from uninsulated piping. If you *must have* a recirc system then that is the cross you bear (and insulating will help alleviate that anyway). Balancing valves are needed *only* if you must recirc from more than one DHW branch.
Install your Holby's, or your Symmons, Danfoss or Caleffi's according to that mfgrs specs and you should have little to worry about. These folks have taken all the guesswork out of the _mysticism of plumbing magic_. In a residential setting, if you cannot locate the water heater within close proximity of the back-2-back kitchen/bathroom group (aaah, remember those days!) then a Watts 70A will still do the trick, even on a gravity recirc (balancing valve a must and a CxC swing check mounted laying over).

This technology was invented many years ago and perfected when Bill Haley was rockin' around the clock. Legionalla and some other slight curves have had us perfect it somewhat over the years and at the very least it's really good to see that modern plumbers are still taking the time to help protect the safety of the masses.

:thumbup:


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

> Cash Acme is owned by a Australian company Reliance Worldwide Corp. and in Australia from my understanding this higher temperature is already in effect. Cash Acme has some pretty good information on this subject check the link below.
> Cash Acme Legionella Info Page


Red - I read the info. page, but still not clear. In Municipal residential settings where the water has been treated - where does the bacteria enter the water supply?

I understand private wells, in commercial settings, and the whole cooling tower issue.

Please explain how it gets into the water supply in a closed system.

Thank you in advance!
http://www.cashacme.com/legionella_main.php


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

ok. I just got off the phone with gil at holby. 212-838-6363. Their concern with having the circ pump controlled by an aquastat is the possibility of hot water radiating through the mixer under zero flow conditions. I think that is a real stretch but, it must be installed per manufacturers instructions. i always constantly circulate so it is not an issue for me. I just want to make sure what i post is fact based. 

There is however, no need for a balancing valve. It would not aleviate the possible scenario they are trying to avoid.

I will check the other mixer manufacturers. I wonder if any can be used with an aquastat controlled circ pump. 

I think if a guy put spring loaded checks on the hot and cold inlets of the mixer the condition would be prevented. 

Mixers are a huge liability for the manufacturer. I think they are just covering their butts.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I thought most mixers had spring checks built in? I may be installing a solar heater with a recirc and a mixing valve soon. I think I'm going to give that holby a shot. I will post my temp logs if I end up doing the job.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Protech said:


> I thought most mixers had spring checks built in? I may be installing a solar heater with a recirc and a mixing valve soon. I think I'm going to give that holby a shot. I will post my temp logs if I end up doing the job.


Holby does not.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Red - I read the info. page, but still not clear. In Municipal residential settings where the water has been treated - where does the bacteria enter the water supply?
> 
> I understand private wells, in commercial settings, and the whole cooling tower issue.
> 
> ...


Its present in the water and chlorination in sufficient quantities to kill it would be objectionable. as long as water does not sit stagnant in the prime growth range the amount of bacteria present in the water does not pose a significant risk.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Bacteria can enter the system when they do routine repairs to the city water supply. It comes to your water heater and grows there. It sets up house and breeds like cockaroaches. A recent study says that plastic showerheads show more bacteria growth than metal. pex may have a big problem...........


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Its present in the water and chlorination in sufficient quantities to kill it would be objectionable. as long as water does not sit stagnant in the prime growth range the amount of bacteria present in the water does not pose a significant risk.


Thank you Red! :thumbup:


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