# Heads Up, Dishwashers are your new worst enemy.



## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

Thursday night I went to an after hours call for a new customer that had water leaking into their basement. It only took a few minutes to find the leak at the dishwasher. 

The hose connection looked to be cross-threaded. This is one of those new connections that requires the female hose x 3/8" adapter. 

Now, I don't know how many of these new style dishwashers my company has installed, but it is more than a few. Of the few I have done myself, I know I have almost cross threaded the connection, and had to back it off and start again. 

So, heads up! Make sure that you have your connections on straight. 

--Will


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

woberkrom said:


> ... It only took a few minutes to find the leak at the dishwasher.
> 
> The hose connection looked to be cross-threaded. This is one of those new connections that requires the female hose x 3/8" adapter.
> ...
> So, heads up! Make sure that you have your connections on straight.


I hate those things. Such a chickensh*t way to do a permanent water connection inside a house. But one thing I'm always careful about is making sure they're not cross-threaded.

The new dishwasher that I'm REALLY hating now is the new Samsungs. They stole part of Bosch's ideas, but not all, so they're stupidly difficult to install (the Bosch's are NICE to install). They left off the thing that lets you adjust the rear legs from the front, so you have to guess where to put the back legs and finalize adjustment with a long stick and a flashlight (or pull it in and out ten times, risking damaging floors) - HORRIBLE! Then they made them too deep front-to-back and ran the rear bottom of the DW right down to within maybe three inches from the floor so you can't drill your pipes out the side bottom of the cabinet anymore - you have to go through the toe-space, which is pretty tough - that area is full of screws and nails. Sometimes you have to butcher out the back counter support strip to get the DW far enough back so it doesn't stick out from the cabinets.

One customer only kept his for about a week - hated it and pulled it back out. Guess he's putting his own replacement back in - I haven't heard from him about it.


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## Ishmael (Dec 9, 2009)

I actually like them, though. A large part of my business is draining/winterizing houses, then re-commissioning in the spring. It's so much easier/faster to reach under there with channel locks and work side-to-side than it is to move a stubby 5/8" wrench up and down over and over and over and.......:yes:


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

i have only installed a handfull of these new Dishwashers and the bottom line has gone up. I now charge double what I used to. 

I dont care if I dont get these jobs, leave it for the handymen


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Ishmael said:


> I actually like them, though. A large part of my business is draining/winterizing houses, then re-commissioning in the spring. It's so much easier/faster to reach under there with channel locks and work side-to-side than it is to move a stubby 5/8" wrench up and down over and over and over and.......:yes:


Hmm... I connect the old style with a 3/8" MIP x 5/8" compression brass 90 facing to the rear. Pipe pex to within the last six inches or so and put copper in the comp fitting. I use my basin wrench to tighten/loosen the compression nut. Easy.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

GREENPLUM said:


> i have only installed a handfull of these new Dishwashers and the bottom line has gone up. I now charge double what I used to.


Ya, a "normal" DW takes maybe an hour to an hour and a half. Some of the new nasties can take three to four hours. A Fisher-Paykal drawer DW takes around three hours or a bit more, but at least it's a pleasant three hours - they're well designed. Some of the other uglies... not so much.


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## Ishmael (Dec 9, 2009)

futz said:


> Hmm... I connect the old style with a 3/8" MIP x 5/8" compression brass 90 facing to the rear. Pipe pex to within the last six inches or so and put copper in the comp fitting. I use my basin wrench to tighten/loosen the compression nut. Easy.


I hear you. But that's yet another tool to carry in and out of each house, plus I didn't plumb every house I have to winterize. It's not a big deal either way - just whining. The ideal houses are those I can do with just my channel locks and a 4-in-1 screwdriver :thumbup:. I typically carry those, PLUS a set of standard allen wrenches, metric allen wrenches, star drivers, adjustable wrench, needle-nose pliers, 5/8" open-end wrench and of course a flashlight. And, yes...I occasionally have to run back out and get the basin wrench for an awkward dishwasher connection. I did about 30 houses last week. It's all about what's easier FOR ME, DAMMIT! :laughing:


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## greenscoutII (Aug 27, 2008)

Yeah, I'm not real fond of the new hose thread fitting myself. What we do here is use a 6' braided flex which we'll attach to the washer first. Then, we just fish the flex, the drain line, and the power cord through a hole drilled in the side of the cabinet.

Pulling out an old dishwasher that's been hard piped can be a real PITA.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Come on now guys are we complaining about a Dishwasher install. Sounds like some of us have forgotten what is like to hand dig ditches and things of the sort. If the lead and okum plumber could hear us now what would they say? Not trying to down anyone just keeping things in perspective.


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## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

I started this thread for a few reasons.

1. I was following behind a reputable company that had probably screwed up.

2. I have almost made the same mistake.

3. I think it is a design that lends itself to this problem. If you connect the braided line to the adapter first, then you have it weighting the backside of the hose fitting down, and you may cross-thread it in a way that you can't see from the front. If you install the hose end first, then you may be putting undo torque on the plastic to tighten the braided end. Assuming you are using a braided line.

Yes. Guys used to have to bust their butts in the past to get a job done. I respect that. It doesn't mean that they wouldn't quickly come to the same conclusion I and others have about this new dishwasher connection. It is always nice to be reminded just how "easy" we have it, but it is also not particularly relevant to the topic. It's like saying it is a dumb topic, which it may be.

--Will


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

easttexasplumb said:


> Come on now guys are we complaining about a Dishwasher install. Sounds like some of us have forgotten what is like to hand dig ditches and things of the sort. If the lead and okum plumber could hear us now what would they say? Not trying to down anyone just keeping things in perspective.


 Some of us WERE Lead / Oakum guys ,,, and still ditch guys ,,,,,

HOWEVER ,, these guys are RIGHT !! Whoever is designing dishwasher is NOT having to hook them up in the field :furious::furious:


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Who ever is designing anything to do with plumbing today is NOT hooking them up in the field. 





Cal said:


> Some of us WERE Lead / Oakum guys ,,, and still ditch guys ,,,,,
> 
> HOWEVER ,, these guys are RIGHT !! Whoever is designing dishwasher is NOT having to hook them up in the field :furious::furious:


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

house plumber said:


> Who ever is designing anything to do with plumbing today is NOT hooking them up in the field.


there designers not plumbers,

so ya there not hooking them up


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

I would venture to say that these connections, along with the plastic Moen stops, and a load of other new "improved" products, is all an attempt to cater to the DIY market. The DIY market has no better ally to the cause than the big boxes. 
I'm torn here because I myself have always been a DIY'er and appreciate the boxes for this purpose. On the other hand, things should not be cheapened to the point that they are no longer quality products. This DIY craze will most likely contribute my plumbing career down the road when all this junk fails and the HO is up a creek.


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## woberkrom (Nov 19, 2010)

I sent an email to the UL about my dislike for this new dishwasher connection and linked back to this thread. If anybody hates this kind of connection, it would help to sound off.

--Will


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I don't like it for several reasons. I think to change something it should meet one of the following two reasons. It makes for a better joint. (replacing a brass threaded elbow with possibly a rubber hose, sounds like possibility of a worse joint) Or the second reason, it makes things easier.

It doesn't do this either. Whoever thought making threads out of plastic was an idiot. It's done all over the place in plumbing now and is almost always garbage. You have to be really careful not to cross thread it or tighten it too tight. It is just a dumb idea. 

The other problem with it is now I have to carry two different types of dishwasher fittings. Another example of things being "easier" only being lousy instead.


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## Herk (Jun 12, 2008)

The worst I've worked with is GE.

Not only did it have the hose washer hookup, but the drain hose was a non-standard size as well so you HAVE to use their hose. But the real clincher came when trying to put the cover back on under the door. There isn't enough room to do it! I spent about an hour trying to get the screws back in because they're far above the low edge of the door and there isn't enough room to fit a hand in there. Unless there's some trick to remove the door that I'm unaware of these things were not meant to be installed by humans.


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## Lifer (Nov 23, 2010)

Hey fellla's just to let you know I was at the supply house today and I seen a fitting you may be interested in it is from Dahl valves and it is a brass 3/8 compression x female swivel garden hose 90 just like the older style . Still not a fix for the cross thread issue but thought you may be interested in them..

Dahl Brothers Canada Ltd
220-31-04f
3/8 od comp x fem swival hose 90


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

These are what I use made by Brass Craft, yes they can be cross threaded. I just flip the dishwasher upside down and install everything nessary on the bottom of it.


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## PlumberJake (Nov 15, 2010)

I believe the reason they changed the water inlet valves is because of the frequency of the old style being damaged during installation. The inlet valve was half brass/half plastic and many people (mostly novice) would overtighten the 3/8 90 and break/crack the plastic half.

The dishwasher manufacturers solution was to redesign the valve and make the 90 out of material that wouldn't have to be tightened as much.

I personally don't like the new fittings either, but I have gotten used to them.

Jake


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## Pro Plumber (Jun 16, 2010)

Just a matter of time before they figure out that the new design wont last very long. next they will design the new dishwashers with a shark bite connection.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

Did a Maytag on friday that had the new (friggin' hose thread) connection. It went well, actually but not my fave by a long shot. The worst was an LG that I installed earlier in the week. I was surprised to see a brass 3/8" FIP connection just like the old days! "Too easy!", I thought until I really got into it. They had a drill template for the cabinets that showed about a 6 sq in area in which to drill for the water, drain and power hoses/cable. Looking over the machine showed that they were right... trying to route anywhere outside of this area would make it impossible to slide the DW into place. Also included was a "taping template" to show where to tape the wire, water and drain pipes to the floor in order to slide the unit into place AND THEN making the connections in the 4 sq mm space left for the installer. 
The cabinet guy insisted on drilling the holes (fine by me) but was a little discouraged to find that it was all in the toe-kick area. PITA to install and would be completely rediculous in anything but new construction as there is no "wiggle room" to allow for island installation or anywhere but right to the left side of the KS.


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## Ansel (Sep 14, 2008)

Gentlemen, I appreciate all the good posts on the subject of dishwasher connections. Unfortunately this one got away from me and I have a drip on a connection I have made. And I tried everything I can think of to correct it short of purchasing a new inlet water valve. any suggestion as to my next move that some of you savy indviduals may have would be greatly appreciated.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Ansel said:


> Gentlemen, I appreciate all the good posts on the subject of dishwasher connections. Unfortunately this one got away from me and I have a drip on a connection I have made. And I tried everything I can think of to correct it short of purchasing a new inlet water valve. any suggestion as to my next move that some of you savy indviduals may have would be greatly appreciated.



An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/.

The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession)

Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field.

This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is.

We look forward to your valuable input.


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## Ansel (Sep 14, 2008)

*A thousand pardons*

I am sorry that my lack of introduction posed a problem. In all actuality I have been a member one year longer than yourself. I use the site infrquently as I am sure you can see from the number of posts I have posted. I tend to be very private and simply read the posts and responses of my peers. I often feel that there is not much I can add of value to the already volumious material. I do have opinions of course but, they are just that my opinions. the question that I have posted is legitimate, though I hate having to admit it. And the customer it affects is real. I am licensed in the state of North Carolina. This is a remodel job that included a new sink, a rerouting of the ice maker line, and this stupid dishwasher. I accidentally cross threaded the water connection. I have tried all the tricks I personally know to stop the drip.And one suggested by a former employeer. My next step is to order the water inlet valve and accept a hard learned lesson to be more careful. I did include all necessary information on my bio when I first joined sorry that it was not enough to satisfy all concerned.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

easttexasplumb said:


> These are what I use made by Brass Craft, yes they can be cross threaded. I just flip the dishwasher upside down and install everything nessary on the bottom of it.


 I'm confused -- I've installed all of the brands of DW mentioned in this thread over the years and excepting a Fisher & Paykel drawer style DW, I have yet to see the 7/8" connection Y'all are talking about.

I've seen the connection on a number of refrigerators, but not dishwashers. Is this a regional thing?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Did one Friday.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

SlickRick said:


> Did one Friday.


 Do you recall the brand?

I'm going to go down to Lowes tomorrow and talk to a friend in their appliances purchasing department to see if it's a regional practice.

Like I said, I see the connection style all the time on refers. I just assumed it was the manufacturers way of protecting the solenoid inlet from damage due to overtightening or debris from too much teflon tape or pipe dope.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Widdershins said:


> Do you recall the brand?
> 
> I'm going to go down to Lowes tomorrow and talk to a friend in their appliances purchasing department to see if it's a regional practice.
> 
> Like I said, I see the connection style all the time on refers. I just assumed it was the manufacturers way of protecting the solenoid inlet from damage due to overtightening or debris from too much teflon tape or pipe dope.


It was from Blows. GC furnished it. The guy's put it in, I am not sure what brand it was. I had to send a guy 20 mi. to get the 90. I would have a few on hand if I were you.


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## Nevada Plumber (Jan 3, 2009)

I've put in a couple of Whirlpool dishwashers within the last few months that took the new style connector. I'm pretty sure those came from a Lowes store.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

SlickRick said:


> I had to send a guy 20 mi. to get the 90. I would have a few on hand if I were you.


 I see them all the time in the bins at Blows and Home Destructo, but never had any cause to buy one.

I was reading deeper into the thread -- I can definitely understand how cross threading into a nylon solenoid inlet might be an issue.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Nevada Plumber said:


> I've put in a couple of Whirlpool dishwashers within the last few months that took the new style connector. I'm pretty sure those came from a Lowes store.


 Pretty much anything 'Whirlpool' sucks these days.

Did you buy the appliances, or were they HO/GC supplied?


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

It's becoming a standard on all but the highest of high end brands. If you cam buy it, its going to be there. Easier for the homeowner/installing hack to handle.

Plumbmaster has the new dishwasher 90s as well...


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## hroark2112 (Apr 16, 2011)

I did an ice maker with one of these plastic hose fitting connections on it recently. What a PITA.

I cross threaded a hose fitting on a water heater in the attic, the plastic was so hot it only took a half turn and it was toast.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

hroark2112 said:


> I did an ice maker with one of these plastic hose fitting connections on it recently. What a PITA.
> 
> I cross threaded a hose fitting on a water heater in the attic, the plastic was so hot it only took a half turn and it was toast.


 I always start out threading backwards, wait until I feel it catch, mark the position in my mind and then go five or six more revolutions backwards to confirm the position before threading forwards.

It takes an extra 30 seconds to do and saves you the PITA of having to redo the connection.


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## Nevada Plumber (Jan 3, 2009)

Widdershins said:


> Pretty much anything 'Whirlpool' sucks these days.
> 
> Did you buy the appliances, or were they HO/GC supplied?


They were homeowner supplied appliances. Fortunately, we don't have a Lowes out here, so I very rarely run into Whirlpool products.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Widdershins said:


> I always start out threading backwards, wait until I feel it catch, mark the position in my mind and then go five or six more revolutions backwards to confirm the position before threading forwards.
> 
> It takes an extra 30 seconds to do and saves you the PITA of having to redo the connection.


Do the same thing, works very well, espicially when the threads are already damaged.


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

plumb nutz said:


> It's becoming a standard on all but the highest of high end brands. If you cam buy it, its going to be there. Easier for the homeowner/installing hack to handle.
> 
> Plumbmaster has the new dishwasher 90s as well...


i recently did 40 dishwashers at a hotel, cheap GE units that had the old school connection.

but they were supplied by a appliance wholesaler, so maybe that is the difference ?


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## Mark7 (Dec 21, 2010)

The Maytags I have been installing all have the garden hose connection. 
'thought I was the only one who thought, "WTF?, was this design change really necessary?".
I figure time will tell.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

We have seen Whirlpools with these connections. WB sells the adapters to work with them.


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