# OMG I pulled a liner out...



## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

Got you all!

So here it is I wanted to put this one to rest once and for all:laughing:

If you pulled a liner I like a video as proof against my video. :jester: if you don't have a video of pulling a liner out with a snake I call BS on that one. Now it depends of the materials you are using but this one see for yourself:thumbsup:


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## BOBBYTUCSON (Feb 8, 2013)

well, **** can still get snagged on a torn up bladder...so a customer spends all this money on a liner, has future problems and now what ?


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> well, **** can still get snagged on a torn up bladder...so a customer spends all this money on a liner, has future problems and now what ?


This is why when lining you can't snake but if someone did snake you are right a torn up bladder will cause a clog. In the event of a clog the client should call the lining company as they will know what to do. Jetting is what should be done in the event of a clogged liner.

If someone messed up the bladder for me is not a big deal as I have tools to fully remove the bladder and the liner will stay in place just like in the video. After this snaking is no problem as there is no longer a bladder. Would be the same as having abs in a way.

I rescued other companies from this before an 80ft liner to be exact. I pulled 80 ft of bladder and the line was back in business so not a big deal for me. There are tools and solutions. These specialized tools are not cheap but if this is what you do you better have those tools!


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

There should be no reason for a liner to clog if installed properly.


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## SHEPLMBR70 (Feb 25, 2016)

What if the house is sold? Is there a way to identify a liner before a sewer is snaked?


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

SHEPLMBR70 said:


> What if the house is sold? *Is there a way to identify a liner before a sewer is snaked?*


THIS!

Lining is not popular in my area. There is only one company around that does it, but out of the thousands on mains I've snaked here, I have not yet knowingly cabled or seen a lined sewer.


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## SHEPLMBR70 (Feb 25, 2016)

OpenSights said:


> THIS!
> 
> Lining is not popular in my area. There is only one company around that does it, but out of the thousands on mains I've snaked here, I have not yet knowingly cabled or seen a lined sewer.


I mean I know before snaking, it should be camerad, but don't you think there should be some kind of identifying marker or something.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

cjtheplumber said:


> There should be no reason for a liner to clog if installed properly.


then why not remove the bladder as part of the lining job so there are no problems later? or do you make another chunk of $$ fixing it a second time , pulling out the bladder. seems to me if the bladder isnt taken out, its half of a job from the beginning...this is not personal to you , as it sounds noone takes the bladder out..any reason for that?


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## PPRI (Aug 27, 2013)

This bladder that they're talking about is the backing for the felt. It is stitched and welded together over the felt from the manufacturer. This is what keeps the resins in the felt and not getting all over the place. This is not a cal tube that is installed on site to air up a liner and then is removed when finished. The only way to remove this membrane bladder is to cut it from the felt liner.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

OK, but if drain cleaning can rip it out and cause more issues, and the op stated "If someone messed up the bladder for me is not a big deal as I have tools to fully remove the bladder and the liner will stay in place just like in the video. After this snaking is no problem as there is no longer a bladder. Would be the same as having abs in a way."
then why not remove it and not have any issues later that will cost the homeowner again?? Im asking for knowledge not an argument..


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> then why not remove the bladder as part of the lining job so there are no problems later? or do you make another chunk of $$ fixing it a second time , pulling out the bladder. seems to me if the bladder isnt taken out, its half of a job from the beginning...this is not personal to you , as it sounds noone takes the bladder out..any reason for that?


The bladder/backing was not designed to be removed that's the reason it is not removed from installation. The reason for a liner in the 1st place is to rehabilitate a cracked line or prevent root intrusion and it does the job well. 

Not removing a bladder is not a half done job as the bladder won't come off or the liner won't clog. In 15 years I've seen this problem 4 times maybe and it was by mistake. Someone came in to clear the line for a clog inside the house and not the main drain. When this was done the snake went too far into the line damaging the bladder it was not due to the liner being clogged or the bladder being already off.

I was called to come take a look at the damage done and provide a solution. If the bladder simply comes out this is a manufacturer defect which I have yet to see. I saw one where the liner was flat in sections this was poor installation. If a liner is done properly this won't happen and there will be no clogs! The problems I've personally seen is due to installer and not the materials.


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## cjtheplumber (Mar 9, 2012)

SHEPLMBR70 said:


> What if the house is sold? Is there a way to identify a liner before a sewer is snaked?


In my area when a house is sold it must be inspected and a camera is sent down the line so the new home owner will know if they need a new sewer or if there is a liner in place.

Manufacturers knew about this bladder deal so they tell you not to snake. But they now are starting to realize that people snake the liners anyways. So I hear some companies now have clean out caps with labels. I'm sure they may be working on a permanent solution. I have no idea!

I like to make it clear that I made this video not to show that a liner has problems but more to show what happens when you snake one. Nothing we use is perfect there are installer errors from faucets, water heaters and lining.


Liners are solid depending on the materials being use and the installer. Once a sewer is lined there should be no reason for a snake for the next 25-50 years.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

cjtheplumber said:


> The bladder/backing was not designed to be removed that's the reason it is not removed from installation. The reason for a liner in the 1st place is to rehabilitate a cracked line or prevent root intrusion and it does the job well.
> 
> Not removing a bladder is not a half done job as the bladder won't come off or the liner won't clog. In 15 years I've seen this problem 4 times maybe and it was by mistake. Someone came in to clear the line for a clog inside the house and not the main drain. When this was done the snake went too far into the line damaging the bladder it was not due to the liner being clogged or the bladder being already off.
> 
> I was called to come take a look at the damage done and provide a solution. If the bladder simply comes out this is a manufacturer defect which I have yet to see. I saw one where the liner was flat in sections this was poor installation. If a liner is done properly this won't happen and there will be no clogs! The problems I've personally seen is due to installer and not the materials.


Ok, thanxs for the explanation, my comment for the blockage, was only after the bladder was damaged as you showed in your video, that the now damaged bladder would cause a blockage..


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## wharfrat (Nov 1, 2014)

Great video CJ. That is what I have seen done before on accident. Great info.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

SHEPLMBR70 said:


> I mean I know before snaking, it should be camerad, but don't you think there should be some kind of identifying marker or something.




Just to be clear. Are you saying that you would throw a camera down a line that is backed up where you can't see anything?? Am I missing something? My camera never goes in first. Cable the line to clear, then camera of warranted for me. I would have no idea that I'm cabling a lined pipe.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Letterrip said:


> Just to be clear. Are you saying that you would throw a camera down a line that is backed up where you can't see anything?? Am I missing something? My camera never goes in first. Cable the line to clear, then camera of warranted for me. I would have no idea that I'm cabling a lined pipe.


I send my camera gently down a clogged line prior to cleaning if possible. The reason is to see how far out the obstruction is or how far I can go before I hit a misalignment or something. I do NOT use my camera as a means to unclog it but it is a good way to determine a little bit of information prior to cabling. Sometimes it is a soft clog and the camera will push through. This is if I'm working on a sewer line outside and not under a house or building where it could be cast iron and full of holes. Sometimes the clogged line has drained enough or has settled enough to see what the clog is. Then I will know of its better to jet or cable. What is your opposition to running a camera first just to see what you can see?


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Letterrip said:


> Just to be clear. Are you saying that you would throw a camera down a line that is backed up where you can't see anything?? Am I missing something? My camera never goes in first. Cable the line to clear, then camera of warranted for me. I would have no idea that I'm cabling a lined pipe.


Not to mention you are likely getting your camera out free of charge, seems like unnecessary wear and tear on high dollar equipment.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

plumberkc said:


> Not to mention you are likely getting your camera out free of charge, seems like unnecessary wear and tear on high dollar equipment.


How does it make you money sitting on the truck? It's a diagnostic tool. Use it like a pair of pliers. I also don't see how any unnecessary wear and tear is put on a tool designed to run down sewers if you're using it in its intended way. Running a camera down a drain doesn't wear it out. Abuse or trying to unclog a drain with it isn't smart but merely sticking it down the CO doesn't hurt it at all. Unless you have a cheap camera that isn't water proof. 

It makes no sense to me to not include running a camera when doing drain work as a part of the job. You are only guessing as to what the issue is if you don't. And telling the customer that it will cost additional to run a camera after cleaning a line makes no sense. If it's unclogged, more often than not, they say, "No thanks, we will see what happens." It's not like it costs money each time you use it. You can usually sell a jet job or repair or replacement if you use it right and are able to diagnose properly, plus you add value to the service. They can see if there is a problem. Let them watch while you run the camera. Most customers love it when they get to see what's going on. They can't argue about an issue that way. If you own a camera and do drain work as a part of your services, why not include it in the pricing for drain cleaning? You make more money with it that way. What am I missing here?


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Sorry for derailing the thread. I will shut up now.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> How does it make you money sitting on the truck?


As long as you're charging for it.


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## Plumbducky (Jun 12, 2010)

I camera every sewer.

I built my camera and snake price into one price.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

I'm just so use to getting phone calls asking how much to clear a main. I would give them an option for an additional $*** you will camera the line. You should make it their choice though, let them decide to pay the extra to see a video of what's going on. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> How does it make you money sitting on the truck? If you own a camera and do drain work as a part of your services, why not include it in the pricing for drain cleaning? You make more money with it that way. What am I missing here?


Your not missing a thing. That's how you provide such quality service, you check the pipe after you unclog, show the customer the problem and repair it. Genius 


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

plumberkc said:


> I'm just so use to getting phone calls asking how much to clear a main. I would give them an option for an additional $*** you will camera the line. You should make it their choice though, let them decide to pay the extra to see a video of what's going on.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll camera a line just so I can see, it's a sickness

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> I send my camera gently down a clogged line prior to cleaning if possible. The reason is to see how far out the obstruction is or how far I can go before I hit a misalignment or something. I do NOT use my camera as a means to unclog it but it is a good way to determine a little bit of information prior to cabling. Sometimes it is a soft clog and the camera will push through. This is if I'm working on a sewer line outside and not under a house or building where it could be cast iron and full of holes. Sometimes the clogged line has drained enough or has settled enough to see what the clog is. Then I will know of its better to jet or cable. What is your opposition to running a camera first just to see what you can see?


I like to clear the poo out of the line before I send my camera in.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> I send my camera gently down a clogged line prior to cleaning if possible. The reason is to see how far out the obstruction is or how far I can go before I hit a misalignment or something. I do NOT use my camera as a means to unclog it but it is a good way to determine a little bit of information prior to cabling. Sometimes it is a soft clog and the camera will push through. This is if I'm working on a sewer line outside and not under a house or building where it could be cast iron and full of holes. Sometimes the clogged line has drained enough or has settled enough to see what the clog is. Then I will know of its better to jet or cable. What is your opposition to running a camera first just to see what you can see?




Usually when I show up, the line is full of water. My objection is putting my camera down blind. I know I won't see anything, and so I'm much more likely to get it stuck. If the stoppage has receded, then I could see the advantage. But as others have said, it must be built into your price. Will have to replace that camera someday.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Plumbducky said:


> I camera every sewer.
> 
> I built my camera and snake price into one price.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


Exactly. That's my point and I do the same.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Debo22 said:


> I like to clear the poo out of the line before I send my camera in.


Same here but what if the clog is upstream of the CO?


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

plumberkc said:


> I'm just so use to getting phone calls asking how much to clear a main. I would give them an option for an additional $*** you will camera the line. You should make it their choice though, let them decide to pay the extra to see a video of what's going on.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why should it be their choice for how to best do the job? Not trying to be an ass, but seriously, why the option? The only way you truly know if you've done your job is by running that camera? Charging it separately is more of a scam. It should be included just like testing an underground water line after a repair before back filling. What's the difference? To determine whether or not you've actually done a decent job the only way is to run a camera. And if you have one already, why not include that in the price and charge for it without the option?


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Letterrip said:


> Usually when I show up, the line is full of water. My objection is putting my camera down blind. I know I won't see anything, and so I'm much more likely to get it stuck. If the stoppage has receded, then I could see the advantage. But as others have said, it must be built into your price. Will have to replace that camera someday.


Yes, I do mean charge for it, but fix it into the price for cabling as opposed to charging some additional fee. If you normally charge $150 for cabling only, charge $225 and include a camera. Don't give the option. For instance, " The cost to cable a line within whatever parameters costs $225." And that includes a camera. If the customer says they don't want a camera, i tell them its not an option. That's it.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

Best Darn Sewer said:


> Yes, I do mean charge for it, but fix it into the price for cabling as opposed to charging some additional fee. If you normally charge $150 for cabling only, charge $225 and include a camera. Don't give the option. For instance, " The cost to cable a line within whatever parameters costs $225." And that includes a camera. If the customer says they don't want a camera, i tell them its not an option. That's it.




I would have to think about that. Interesting concept. My experience with the camera and cabling lately has been this. I cable the line and knock a bunch of scale off. I run all the water I can. I make several passes with the cable while the water runs. I put the camera in because something warrants it. I see the bottom of the pipe still covered with the scale I knocked free because there is not enough water flow to remove it. I feel like a cable/camera option here is useless. I'm looking to save up for a jetter. A jet/camera combo makes much more sense to me here. Not sure how you are getting the flow with a cable to remove the rubble on the bottom of the pipe. 

Other problem I have is that I have one camera, but multiple trucks with k-60 machine. I would have to put a camera on each truck. Don't have that kind of capital yet.


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## fixitright (Jan 5, 2012)

You can do all you want but still the customer needs to be convinced to pay the price.
Around here the competition keeps the price low. 

I give options but the camera comes out only when the customer pays for it along with warranties. 

If I only charged with the camera included I'd be sitting home.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

I think the wear and tear thought is from poor camera technique and abuse. I'd have to look but I think I have around 150k feet inspected with my big camera that I got 2 years ago. No repairs needed yet. Use it everyday. 

I always camera first, even with water. Tells me a couple things.....where the blockage is, how far the blockage is, is there a buried cleanout, where does it come out the house so I can look for the cleanout, what kind of pipe(even underwater). 

Plus it helps establish the price because I kinda shoot from the hip on the price because a line with a blockage at 30' is priced different then the blockage at 160'. 

Letterrip......getting the scale out....alot of times I'll stack 4 star skids and push them out with the camera or I'll use the milling machine and brush which works even better. If I had to outfit trucks, I'd have microreels and CS6 with a scout in all the trucks and a full size and mini at the shop.


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

The potential problem I see in the future is the liner being snaked and the reason is because of how the liner was installed. I will use an example, I know 2 guys that do just liners, guy 1 will get his liner within a 1/4" of the city sewer and even on purpose go past a little into the city sewer then grinds it back to the stub for a complete lining job. (often roots are around the sewer stub at the city sewer) Guy 2 is scared of stretching into the sewer and when he lines they stay back 1 foot to 2 foot on every job so that leaves the chance of roots to clog the line in the future and a snaking will be needed to a surprised homeowner who thinks they have a new line. I think guy 1 is a great installer and I recommend him to people all the time, but he charges more than guy 2 and guy 2 gets most of the jobs. Our city makes the homeowner responsible for the entire line under the street, some places it;s just to the property line and is less of a problem.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

So the guy that does better work charges more than the guy that does shoddy work.

I believe it!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Letterrip said:


> I would have to think about that. Interesting concept. My experience with the camera and cabling lately has been this. I cable the line and knock a bunch of scale off. I run all the water I can. I make several passes with the cable while the water runs. I put the camera in because something warrants it. I see the bottom of the pipe still covered with the scale I knocked free because there is not enough water flow to remove it. I feel like a cable/camera option here is useless. I'm looking to save up for a jetter. A jet/camera combo makes much more sense to me here. Not sure how you are getting the flow with a cable to remove the rubble on the bottom of the pipe.
> 
> Other problem I have is that I have one camera, but multiple trucks with k-60 machine. I would have to put a camera on each truck. Don't have that kind of capital yet.


I thought y'all bought a used trailer jetter. Maybe i am thinking if someone else. I hear ya on outfitting your truck's with cameras is a pricey venture. I don't have multiple trucks so I am coming at it from a different perspective. I would recommend having a dedicated drain truck and plumber. Or two of you have enough drain work. One or two guys who are very knowledgeable and have all the necessary equipment. Food for thought.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

That trailer jetter is a flusher type of setup. 2k psi and about 40 GPM. It has a 3/4" hose. Not exactly a residential setup. We have thought about trying to set it up with a smaller hose and head, but I don't want to mess it up playing around. 


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Letterrip said:


> That trailer jetter is a flusher type of setup. 2k psi and about 40 GPM. It has a 3/4" hose. Not exactly a residential setup. We have thought about trying to set it up with a smaller hose and head, but I don't want to mess it up playing around.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ok. I don't blame you. Well, consider the dedicated drain truck idea. Having a dedicated drain specialist within the company can be very profitable. I've seen other large companies do that and it works great. It eliminates the extra time of calling out the camera or jetter and having to outfit multiple trucks with equipment.


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