# Non plumbers should not be allowed to buy water heaters



## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Why can't plumbing supply houses be like HVAC suppliers in my area. If a homeowner tried to buy something there, they would be turned down. At least limit them and never let one buy a water heater.

Got a call today. Homeowner wants price for installing a tankless. I ask the usual barrage of questions. Give him a range. Then he tells me, "Oh, I bought the unit today. And I want you to install it where the old (tanked) one was". I had to start over with this guy explaining why that may not work. He tells me I'll just do it myself. So I told him don't forget to pull a permit. "I'm a homeowner, I don't need one if I do it myself" I said good day sir and good luck.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

You should have back peddled and told him you would like to look at it to give an accurate estimate.
Then fink his address out to the city.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> You should have back peddled and told him you would like to look at it to give an accurate estimate.
> Then fink his address out to the city.


I thought about doing that to a few customers you hired a handyman because my bid was not to their liking but I dont have the time or need for the hassle. One guy threatened to bring up a case to the BBB. Not worth it.


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

MTDUNN said:


> Why can't plumbing supply houses be like HVAC suppliers in my area. If a homeowner tried to buy something there, they would be turned down. At least limit them and never let one buy a water heater.
> 
> Got a call today. Homeowner wants price for installing a tankless. I ask the usual barrage of questions. Give him a range. Then he tells me, "Oh, I bought the unit today. And I want you to install it where the old (tanked) one was". I had to start over with this guy explaining why that may not work. He tells me I'll just do it myself. So I told him don't forget to pull a permit. "I'm a homeowner, I don't need one if I do it myself" I said good day sir and good luck.


I wonder if its sizing the proper units for HVAC? Or the certifications? Even a thermostat homeowners won't replace, of course some do but it seems alot more HO's will swap a toilet or a faucet then mess with electric, even low voltage like a thermostat.

The plumbing trade hasn't protected itself, like carpentry, you can tell when someone who doesn't know what there're doing puts up crown molding or try's to make a drywall repair but when it comes wood flooring, that's been made so easy it has to be a killer for carpenters. Just like us with water heaters, its been made so easy to do almost anyone with pliers and shark bites can now do it.

Residentially, what is that complicated in plumbing anymore?, well pumps, water services, sewer clogged or needs replacing I can't think of much more than those, other than tankless water heaters. Even here in Delaware we used to have some pretty strict codes but replacing a water heater or replacing a water conditioning system no longer needs a permit.

I don't blame home centers like alot of people do, if you want someone to blame it would be Moen, Delta, Kohler, Insinkerator, etc. Homecenters sell mulch, grass seed and lawn mowers, every time we use these at our homes we are taking food out of Landscapers mouths. I would bet accidents with lawn mowers, injuries and such far out weigh injuries caused by poorly installed water heaters. 

Back to handymen or contractors in general, down here in Lower Delaware we don't really have access to natural gas so alot of houses get propane, well just the other day my supplier had a commercial and in it they replace water heaters. So I called them and asked for the plumbers license number, which I was told he was out of the office, no big deal I said the license number has to be on the truck or trucks doing the water heaters, and after more BS, I was given a valid number from a licensed plumber who has his own business. I called him yesterday just to check with him that he knew they were using his number and he told me in no uncertain terms to mind my own effing business, its not my concern. So you have licensed plumbers renting out their numbers and I know for a fact it doesn't just happen here. 

To me, everyone in trade should take some responsibility for how business is done and how it will look in the future cause I don't see more licensing requirements in the future, I see less.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

James420 said:


> I don't blame home centers like alot of people do


I used to blame the box stores when Home Depot first opened. Plumbers used to make money on fixtures so labor rates went up. It's hard to explain to customers why. But we need to feed our kids and pay for their education. 

Over the years T&M slowely is fading out. With clever sales skills flat rate is becoming more prevelant. It's what I use now. It takes a lot of keeping up with pricing going up on materials. But if you can convince a homeowner that you use flat rate so they wont have to watch the clock all the time, they seem to trust you more most of the time.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

It's like fighting City Hall. Best to focus on your customers, not the ones doing it themselves. At some point, they will not like the results and will have learned their lesson.

Like the H.O. who pulls up old linoleum, puts down new tile, and pats himself on the back. Goes to Lowes and purchases 'the pretty' toilet that his wife picked out. Sets the toilet without raising the flange. Caulks neatly all the way around the base of the toilet, creating a tight seal.

Then H.O. realizes the 'pretty' toilet has a terrible flush. Before long, his wife starts complaining about a sewer smell. Pulls the toilet and adds another wax ring. Now H.O. caulks even more, because he's not positive the extra wax ring will do the trick. Caulk job looks horrible, but H.O. is satisfied.

Few years go by, plunging is done weekly, and he even had to buy a hand augur. He learns to live with it.

Then one day, he goes into the bathroom and notices water at the base of the toilet. Goes to the home center to buy a new wax ring. When he pulls the toilet, he realizes that the sub-floor is spongy. He knows what the result will be, but he refuses to call a professional. He resets the toilet with yet another wax ring, and prays that the tiles hold out just a bit longer.

The next plumbing project that comes along, he is calling a professional because he knows what he thought he saved, will end up costing him a whole lot more. :yes:


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

James420 said:


> I wonder if its sizing the proper units for HVAC? Or the certifications? Even a thermostat homeowners won't replace, of course some do but it seems alot more HO's will swap a toilet or a faucet then mess with electric, even low voltage like a thermostat.
> 
> The plumbing trade hasn't protected itself, like carpentry, you can tell when someone who doesn't know what there're doing puts up crown molding or try's to make a drywall repair but when it comes wood flooring, that's been made so easy it has to be a killer for carpenters. Just like us with water heaters, its been made so easy to do almost anyone with pliers and shark bites can now do it.
> 
> ...


That's the excantly the reason why I don't agree having plumbing liensce on trucks... just like giving the public our ssn away..


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Ha, I had a call like this. I pulled up leaking toilet that didnt flush well. I thought at first clogged up line. Nope. 3 horned wax rings squished on the flange


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I'm not paying for water heaters... no reason to turn that money over (100's) if I'm not charging a good amount for pickup, cost over and above the heater for when it malfunctions. 


And it will. 


I've fielded numerous service calls away this week for customers calling about malfunctioning water heaters, mostly gas, mostly powervents. The percentages of ones 'under warranty' would scare you. 


I just give them all to a guy that's the authorized rep. Not going to keep all those hundreds of dollars of parts for those heaters for only 30 calls that come in a year.

That's trying to cover the bases for various models, various brands. You simply cannot just upsell a new heater every time one is malfunctioning.

People even try to come back at us for ones installed by us, malfunctioning and we didn't even buy it. !!! 

I don't go for it. I don't want to get hung on the numbers for turning such inflated costs in my company. It simply doesn't work.


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

Out here we get lots of work from customers who buy there own tanks, especially the ones who live in the mobile homes, the go to home hardware buy a new water heater get the 400$ one instead of the 1100$ sealed combustion unit then wonder why it doesn't work.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

MTDUNN said:


> Why can't plumbing supply houses be like HVAC suppliers in my area. If a homeowner tried to buy something there, they would be turned down. At least limit them and never let one buy a water heater.
> 
> Got a call today. Homeowner wants price for installing a tankless. I ask the usual barrage of questions. Give him a range. Then he tells me, "Oh, I bought the unit today. And I want you to install it where the old (tanked) one was". I had to start over with this guy explaining why that may not work. He tells me I'll just do it myself. So I told him don't forget to pull a permit. "I'm a homeowner, I don't need one if I do it myself" I said good day sir and good luck.


True, if he does it himself he does not need a permit.


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Ron said:


> True, if he does it himself he does not need a permit.


Depends on where he is located , In Texas all water heaters require a permit.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

He is in Oregon same state I am in.


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## Mpc_mhayes (Nov 27, 2012)

Going about this the wrong way. Not going to get the license board or state govs to help with this. Got to get the insurance companies involved. They need to let people know if they install a water heater and it leaks or causes a fire they will not pay. It must be installed by a licensed Plumber. The Insurance companies would love to send this info out just so there's a chance they wouldn't have to pay.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

Mpc_mhayes said:


> Going about this the wrong way. Not going to get the license board or state govs to help with this. Got to get the insurance companies involved. They need to let people know if they install a water heater and it leaks or causes a fire they will not pay. It must be installed by a licensed Plumber. The Insurance companies would love to send this info out just so there's a chance they wouldn't have to pay.


*You are dead wrong, all Home Insurance company's Do cover stupid !
Then they raise everbody's rates to cover the loss
*


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## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

JERRYMAC said:


> *You are dead wrong, all Home Insurance company's Do cover stupid !*
> *Then they raise everbody's rates to cover the loss*


He's saying the same thing, they do pay but they shouldn't. 
I've got a real problem with telling some body what they can and can't do with their own property. If they pull a permit, do it themselves and it passes thats their buisness. No permit, no inspection and they blow up their house, well, thats on them.


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## FEDguy (May 19, 2010)

I agree....the insurance companies wold have the biggest hammer to make that happen.


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## James420 (Nov 14, 2012)

Mpc_mhayes said:


> Going about this the wrong way. Not going to get the license board or state govs to help with this. Got to get the insurance companies involved. They need to let people know if they install a water heater and it leaks or causes a fire they will not pay. It must be installed by a licensed Plumber. The Insurance companies would love to send this info out just so there's a chance they wouldn't have to pay.


I think that's a great idea, look at trampolines (sorry if I spelled it wrong), but years ago it seemed everyone had one, when insurance companies put the hammer down about not covering injuries or raising rates they started disappearing. Especially a clause in which the installer has to be a licensed plumber. 

Off the subject and not to hijack but a few weeks ago I went out to put elements in a water heater and the customers thought I was an electrician, so it had me wondering, could an electric water heater be put in by an electrician and be legal?, or are water heaters considered just plumbers work?
It brings me back to appliance repair companies installing garbage disposals, when I left residential plumbing back in 1999 plumbers work seemed more defined, has it changed and I missed it or are other companies getting our work?


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## pipefitter156 (Apr 12, 2013)

i would put in my own water heater. im not a plumber.
i would do it with ease. i mean come on its a water heater we are not talking about a steam turbine here


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## xmx (Apr 9, 2013)

I guess the situation is a bit different here because you can't buy gas appliances (except stoves) without a license. We have a lot more electrical everything because hydro is so cheap here (Quebec). On the one hand, our construction industry is perhaps slightly over-regulated (I technically could get a fine for cutting and installing a piece of plywood to attach my furnace to because I don't have carpentry cards... never have, but its written in the rules, so I could). On the other hand, I don't appreciate hearing clients whine about the bill when they call me to come bleed radiators. They should know how to do that, and I show them how to when I do an installation. Where I'm going with this is some clients will try to go way beyond their skill level and others lack the basic mechanical knowledge I consider essential to being a home owner. You should know where your water main is. You should know where your electrical panel is. You should know how to shut down your heating system in case of emergency. This is getting sort of ramble-ey. All of this to say: you aren't a plumber? you shouldn't touch gas. if you want to try to change your own faucet then fine, but if it goes badly I don't want to hear a single word about the bill.


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## xmx (Apr 9, 2013)

Here anyway, on a big site I'll do the piping and the electrician will connect. On commercial/ residential, service especially electrical connections to my fixtures and controls for my system are my problem. The electrician will bring a wire from the panel, and I'll put in a disconnect and go from there


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

pipefitter156 said:


> i would put in my own water heater. im not a plumber.
> i would do it with ease. i mean come on its a water heater we are not talking about a steam turbine here


Even a gas water heater?


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## pipefitter156 (Apr 12, 2013)

Phat Cat said:


> Even a gas water heater?


so ur not a dude?

I think a gas hot water heater is well within my grasp. gas lines ar pipefitting. 
are you hot? maybe you can send me a photo of a gril plumber.

sorry about the nasty message I sent you. I thought you where a *** or something,


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

pipefitter156 said:


> so ur not a dude?
> 
> I think a gas hot water heater is well within my grasp. gas lines ar pipefitting.
> are you hot? maybe you can send me a photo of a gril plumber.
> ...


 A gril plumber??? Nlmfaoof


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## BOBBYTUCSON (Feb 8, 2013)

A girl plumber hell yah! And i agree with o.p., but what if im a homeowner who wanted to recharge my own unit, id be pist if i was denied a saleblol


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## SlowDrains (Mar 25, 2013)

I love some of the things I see homeowners do themselves I had a guy the other day that used pex on a basement bathroom he tried to RI but he glued cpvc fittings to it. He had no idea why it kept coming apart!


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

pipefitter156 said:


> so ur not a dude?


:no:



> I think a gas hot water heater is well within my grasp. gas lines ar pipefitting. are you hot?


Yes, it was hot outside. Ready to put the A/C on so I won't be so hot. 



> maybe you can send me a photo of a gril plumber.


I don't swing that way - so no girl plumber pics from me. 



> sorry about the nasty message I sent you. I thought you where a *** or something,


No problem.


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## PlungerJockey (Feb 19, 2010)

I went to a home last sumer. Rheem tankless water heater no worky.

The HO bought it off the web and his contractor buddy installed it. I found it was vented incorrectly and it would need some work done. I got the odel and serial number and went to the supply house to get a qoute for materials.

The HO's model had been obsolete since about 2007. Rheem no longer offers that vent pipe. My supplier checked around and he couldget it from a another source but it was 376 dollars for a 3 foot joint.

He bought this unit about a year ago..... Atleast he got a free shipping.

I left it with him to find another deal, but for vent pipe. I never heard back from him.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

SlowDrains said:


> I love some of the things I see homeowners do themselves I had a guy the other day that used pex on a basement bathroom he tried to RI but he glued cpvc fittings to it. He had no idea why it kept coming apart!


The plumbing rep at local box called in sick. The paint rep needed extra hours so he agreed to fill in. Mr Homeowner didn't know this when he asked for advice.


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## JK949 (Mar 18, 2009)

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> but what if im a homeowner who wanted to recharge my own unit, id be pist if i was denied a saleblol


So what? You need E.P.A. Certs to buy refrigerant, which can lead to serious fines for messing with the stuff improperly. 

You want to change things? Make the penalties severe enough to put companies out of business or in jail for breaking the rules.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

So years ago "This Old House" started a DIYer craze which spread and resulted in "You can do it! We can help..."

If you haven't reacted to the change by now and adjusted, still going to every DIYer inspired job in a reactionary mode...

Just keep waiting... Darwin's Law will kick in sometime...
Some failing species struggle for a long time before they die off...
Others fall into extinction very quickly....


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