# same song different verse



## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

I have a call to catch in the morning .It is an old lady wanting a 2nd opinion. She is worried sick,I tried to settle her down on phone.(TRIED) Her neighbor called me saying *** co was out there fri and used a small elect jetter on her line getting it open and then making her a(video) tape of the line showing it still full of roots and gave her a price of 3200.00 to replace the approx 30ft flat sewer. They are known for this. I will use my big gorlitz and double cutters and IF I hit a dead spot and pull out my cable with mud on end ,then I will talk to her about digging. Its sad that the other guys thought since she is old they would sell her a new line. Guess this goes on way too much


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## highpoint (Mar 3, 2009)

Would jetter with warthog or rootranger work good in this scenario??


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## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

highpoint said:


> Would jetter with warthog or rootranger work good in this scenario??


 YES absolutely like I said these guys are rip offs


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Be sure to take some bolt cutters, to cut the chain.....................


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

I realize that the lady is elderly and understand and get it. However how can you guarantee that the roots will not grow back again? How many times has she paid for drain cleaning in the past with the roots being the problem? How large are the holes, cracks, and breaks in her building sewer that is allowing the roots to grow? How many times will you (general you meaning every plumber that has been there in the past) collect to clear the line before a decision is made to remove the bad section or replace the building sewer? Lastly is it really in her best interest to mask the problem for later. Is it better to spend less then she should than spend more then she thought?

I am not sure what the complaint is whether it is the 3 grand to replace the sewer or that they did not spend all day and return the next day to complete the job of clearing all the roots from a bad section of the building sewer drain? A 2 hour drain cleaning will not remove all the roots.

I am not defending the other company. I am saying more information is necessary before a decision is made to ignore the roots or take care of the real issue which is root intrusion and how bad the building sewer is. Allow her to make the final decision on what to do and how much she will pay.


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## drs (Jun 17, 2011)

The question I would ask is why she did not call you in the first place?


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## highpoint (Mar 3, 2009)

What is common practice to prevent re-rooting?
I've seen YouTube videos of a foam that is out down the drain and expands into the pipe an kills roots. Obviously still need to be cleared.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

highpoint said:


> What is common practice to prevent re-rooting?
> I've seen YouTube videos of a foam that is out down the drain and expands into the pipe an kills roots. Obviously still need to be cleared.


 
any root not cut root x will not kill


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Richard Hilliard said:


> any root not cut root x will not kill



ROOTX told me that I can treat any line with roots, even if they have not been cut and the product will kill the roots,

The disclaimer was if you just rodded the line your must apply the product immediately or you need to wait 6 weeks if the rootx isn't applied right after the roots are cut because they will be covered in sap after a few hours and that's the only time they won't absorb the product.


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## ibeplumber (Sep 20, 2011)

ChrisConnor said:


> ROOTX told me that I can treat any line with roots, even if they have not been cut and the product will kill the roots,
> 
> The disclaimer was if you just rodded the line your must apply the product immediately or you need to wait 6 weeks if the rootx isn't applied right after the roots are cut because they will be covered in sap after a few hours and that's the only time they won't absorb the product.


This is also how I understood it. :thumbsup:


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## ibeplumber (Sep 20, 2011)

Richard Hilliard said:


> I realize that the lady is elderly and understand and get it. However how can you guarantee that the roots will not grow back again? How many times has she paid for drain cleaning in the past with the roots being the problem? How large are the holes, cracks, and breaks in her building sewer that is allowing the roots to grow? How many times will you (general you meaning every plumber that has been there in the past) collect to clear the line before a decision is made to remove the bad section or replace the building sewer? Lastly is it really in her best interest to mask the problem for later. Is it better to spend less then she should than spend more then she thought?
> 
> I am not sure what the complaint is whether it is the 3 grand to replace the sewer or that they did not spend all day and return the next day to complete the job of clearing all the roots from a bad section of the building sewer drain? A 2 hour drain cleaning will not remove all the roots.:thumbup: Or why not just go video inspect if? If it does need replacement $3200 doesn't sound to far off. Just saying.
> 
> I am not defending the other company. I am saying more information is necessary before a decision is made to ignore the roots or take care of the real issue which is root intrusion and how bad the building sewer is. Allow her to make the final decision on what to do and how much she will pay.


:thumbup: or why not just go video inspect it if you are suspect? If it does need to be dug $3200 doesn't sound to far off..


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

ibeplumber said:


> :thumbup: or why not just go video inspect it if you are suspect? If it does need to be dug $3200 doesn't sound to far off..


Is it outside the realm of possibility that they pulled the "bait and switch", showing a video to the client of someone else's sewer?

I know Kung Fu!


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

highpoint said:


> What is common practice to prevent re-rooting?
> I've seen YouTube videos of a foam that is out down the drain and expands into the pipe an kills roots. Obviously still need to be cleared.


 I've been using copper sulfate on my rental properties for years.

I buy it in bulk, provide it and direct my tenants to flush two cups of it down the toilet every month when they mail off the rent check.

Persistent root problems disappeared almost immediately.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

U666A said:


> Is it outside the realm of possibility that they pulled the "bait and switch", showing a video to the client of someone else's sewer?
> 
> I know Kung Fu!


 





That's what I am thinking. Did they leave her a CD or VHS of her sewer? If not, why not?.....:whistling2:

You need to inspect her line with your fiber optics. Then I'd go from there......


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> I've been using copper sulfate on my rental properties for years.
> 
> I buy it in bulk, provide it and direct my tenants to flush two cups of it down the toilet every month when they mail off the rent check.
> 
> Persistent root problems disappeared almost immediately.


 




That will do the trick.....:thumbsup: But I think if the home is on a septic, it will kill off the good bacteria in the tank. Root-X also does the trick.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

She may need a new sewerline, but if they were unstopping it with an electric jetter, it must not have been much of a stoppage and/or they didn't do much clearing and I am sure she paid a premium for a water jet service, even if it was just a glorified root rinse.


A local unnamed franchise has been unstopping drains with a drain king, then doing a video inspection and then attempting to sell the customer a new sewer, there are a lot of tricksters who think they are doing the customer a favor by getting them to replace sooner than may be actually necessary.

I've never subscribed to the notion that a sewer line with roots had to be replace immediately, but my objective was to clear the line to the best of it's potential and give a fair cost comparison and let the customer make their own decision.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

Wow. Some of these preconceived notions of what a customer wants are waaaay over the top.Most want to be preemptive and replace while some may not. Always thinking that the very least is the very best will not help you or the customer. I go behind the "very least" "old school" types every single day to replace lines without once ever bashing them.... the customer has already received that band aid service and it has spoken for itself.


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## drtyhands (Aug 16, 2008)

The Advertising plumbers out here are not getting the typical plumbing calls they used to to get easy money.

So now they *AND *non ad plumbers are replacing everything,including bellys holding a 1/2" of water.This makes for everyone out here crawling over each other to get drain calls so they can replace sewers.

Some people out here have money and companies are not telling them the truth.It does not matter if it is an elderly widow on a fixed income.
It is hard for me to stay cool on this.If a clay line is 40 years old and has never had a cleanout installed it most likely has never been cleaned properly.First stoppage after all those years...Come on!!!I've got clay lines with over 4years on the first cleaning.

Let me in there to clean it right and evaluate.I make a killing winning bids and running sewers trenchless or otherwise.Doesn't make it right to push them on everybody with spaghetti in the kitchen trap.

We got a lot of sewer pusher/pullers in this area.

Every one of them will tell you over a beer they don't make any money cleaning drains..Period.


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## drtyhands (Aug 16, 2008)

ckoch407 said:


> Wow. Some of these preconceived notions of what a customer wants are waaaay over the top.Most want to be preemptive and replace while some may not. Always thinking that the very least is the very best will not help you or the customer. I go behind the "very least" "old school" types every single day to replace lines without once ever bashing them.... the customer has already received that band aid service and it has spoken for itself.


They more than likely were not cleaning properly with absolute intentions of being called back.

Have we forgottren the oldest trick in the book? A cable with no head just 3" of bent cable on the end of the snake.Saw a couple of those guys onsite on two different occasions last year.
Scumbags for sure.Of course the homeowner is going to look at something else besides that A-Hole.Hunderd bucks says he don't camera after.

I clean,camera and explain replacement VS. proper maintenance...
Orangeberg gets a serious look at replacement.
.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

drtyhands said:


> I clean,camera and explain replacement VS. proper maintenance...
> Orangeberg gets a serious look at replacement.
> .



Im with you on this. I don't advocate deception by any means. Its the crazy ASSumptions that precede any attempt at finding the facts, coupled with the opinions of some that replacement is a rip off unless the whole line is completely collapsed and cleaning over and over is the only option that I find absurd.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

In those scenarios I'll give the customer (3) options:

1) Repair area where there is root intrusion,

2) Regular rodding of sewer line (annually or semi-annually)

3) Or do nothing. Wait for another backup

I get alot of, "What would you do if it were your house?"


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

If is a new customer I ask when is the last time the line was cleaned. They may say 2 to 5 years earlier. Depending on what they say I tell them if they are getting the line cleaned several times a year the money would be better spend towards a replacement. I don't feel once a year cleaning is a bad thing but no doubt will become increasingly worse. I give them the forecast and a price and see where it goes from there.


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## ckoch407 (Sep 30, 2009)

If it did it once it will do it again. Some folks don't want to have to keep dealing with the same issue over and over. 1 year or 10 years apart. Why wait until there is **** on the floor to deal with it?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Widdershins said:


> I've been using copper sulfate on my rental properties for years.
> 
> I buy it in bulk, provide it and direct my tenants to flush two cups of it down the toilet every month when they mail off the rent check.
> 
> Persistent root problems disappeared almost immediately.


Copper Sulfate works but we can't use it here...
Use of copper sulfate root destroyers is not permitted in Connecticut and San Francisco Bay area of California.

So Root-X it is then....


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ChrisConnor said:


> She may need a new sewerline, *but if they were unstopping it with an electric jetter, it must not have been much of a stoppage and/or they didn't do much clearing* and I am sure she paid a premium for a water jet service, even if it was just a glorified root rinse.
> 
> 
> A local unnamed franchise has been *unstopping drains with a drain king, then doing a video inspection and then attempting to sell the customer a new sewer*, there are a lot of tricksters who think they are doing the customer a favor by getting them to replace sooner than may be actually necessary.
> ...


I agree Chris!

When you are following another show it is often hard to tell what they did and if they were on the up and up...

I'll make a damn good effort to clear the line and get the camera in there for a look. At least then you can give them a baseline as to how often the line needs cleaning and it's the customers option to repair/replace. We charge a flat rate for cleaning that equals approx 2 hours time. IMHO that doesn't mean try with an inadequate effort for 15 - 30 minutes then sell a new line.

There are all to many companies that put forth an inadequate effort such as the electric jetter in a main, or the small blade or single blade poke a hole in the clog. They don't do much for the credibility of our trade. I have a customer down the street from me that I last cleaned their line 5 years ago who had been using another company for years. He stated that the line had needed snaking for roots every 6 months when I first went there. I told him that he probably needed a new line or repairs needed but went ahead with the cleaning anyway. There was a very tough area about 10' from the outside cleanout that I had about 3' of heavy root cutting to get through. I found it tough enough that I actually had to run the small cutter first then go back with the larger one which normally I don't do.

It turned out I had the customer tell me that no one had ever run the large blade through the line and the previous company had been poking holes every 6 months for several years. That accounted for why the roots were so tough. The camera inspection revealed a line that was in decent shape except for one joint that had roots coming in under a tree.

Options given:

Treat the line with Root-X once per year and snake again when needed.
Shoot a liner from the cleanout past the joint where the roots are intruding.
Take down the tree and do a spot repair.

The last cleaning was 5 years ago and Root-X has been applied every year since. The customer knows at some point he will repair the line but proudly announces to me every time I see him around town "No Problems Yet" I think we have a pretty good shot at doing the work when it finally is needed. I know he calls us every year to get the Root-X and he's referred neighbors to us...

Works for me!


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## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

drs said:


> The question I would ask is why she did not call you in the first place?


 I am semi retired and no longer advertise, but I have a 40 yr rep for telling the truth. The call got to me from another plumber. The old lady had ONE little spot of hair roots growing in at sewer tap.I scraped line with 4'' double blades until it was pretty much clean of roots.We looked at my camera after job and agreed that she DID NOT need a sewer repair or replacement so with the rootx she had rather spend the 225 I charged her plus 75 per yr for rootx.The other guys charged her 250 for the jetter and 175 to camera her line .She is approx 87 yrs old ,so guys if this were your mother and could not do her work yourself who would you want dealing with her?? ____)()( I have noticed in our area the younger drain cleaners are TRAINED to sell replacement sewers if there are any sign of roots because the pipe has to be cracked for roots to enter system ,I was taught to clean the pipe as well as possible if no mud comes back on cable.So I cant talk about how they were trained, I just was not trained that way.If it was a young couple moving into an older home with roots then I would explain that this is going to continue to give you trouble without proper maint and if they could afford a new sewer ,go for it ,but over 80 yr and a few hair roots no way would I try to sell her a repair


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## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> That's what I am thinking. Did they leave her a CD or VHS of her sewer? If not, why not?.....:whistling2:
> 
> You need to inspect her line with your fiber optics. Then I'd go from there......


 no they DID NOT leave tape or anything for her to keep()()( I am going back in may to appy ROOTX ,her line was 32 ft from co to main no visible cracks only hair roots at tap on main. enoff said


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

Here is my difference.

Roots growing and entering at the tap location I then will get the city or county invovled and they will make the repair for FREE to the home owner. Problem solved . The cost to the home owner is a drain cleaning and if I can not make a determination from running the drain machine a video inspection.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

ibeplumber said:


> :thumbup: or why not just go video inspect it if you are suspect? If it does need to be dug $3200 doesn't sound to far off..


 
I agree with you and we are on the same page. Personally I am not sure what age has to do with the solution and problem. If the person was a 25 year old lady or a 25 year old man or an 86 year old lady the problem and solution are the same.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

ChrisConnor said:


> ROOTX told me that I can treat any line with roots, even if they have not been cut and the product will kill the roots,
> 
> The disclaimer was if you just rodded the line your must apply the product immediately or you need to wait 6 weeks if the rootx isn't applied right after the roots are cut because they will be covered in sap after a few hours and that's the only time they won't absorb the product.


 

The sales rep told us differently when they visited our shop.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Richard Hilliard said:


> Here is my difference.
> 
> Roots growing and entering at the tap location I then will get the city or county invovled and they will make the repair for FREE to the home owner. Problem solved . The cost to the home owner is a drain cleaning and if I can not make a determination from running the drain machine a video inspection.


The rule around her is the connection to the tap is the homeowners property. They figure that the piping is the county's, but the connection thereto was done by the property owners agent, thus they take no responsibility.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Redwood said:


> I agree Chris!
> 
> When you are following another show it is often hard to tell what they did and if they were on the up and up...
> 
> ...


 






Too bad there are 'drain cleaners' that are for whatever reason performing at a sub-par level. Either they are not trained properly or else they don't have any ethics. Playing poke-a-hole-in-the-clog every (6) months is why you had such a tough time. By them not using the correct size cutter head in the sewer line year after year is what allowed the roots to grow just out of reach of their smaller cutter head, as you state in the post. 

Some people think that drain cleaning is just a matter of one size cable and auger head fits all. Just shove it in the drain line and poof! the clog magically disappears. When guys with that mentality are themselves drain cleaners, they are performing a dis-service to not only their customers, but to reputable plumbing and drain cleaning companies all over. My $0.02.


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## drs (Jun 17, 2011)

ChrisConnor said:


> The rule around her is the connection to the tap is the homeowners property. They figure that the piping is the county's, but the connection thereto was done by the property owners agent, thus they take no responsibility.


 
PM me,


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Richard Hilliard said:


> The sales rep told us differently when they visited our shop.





> Should I use RootX together with mechanical root cutting?
> 
> If this is the first time you’re treating a pipe or if the pipe is completely blocked, you can clear away the immediate blockage by cutting the roots first. Then use RootX to kill the remaining roots and leave a barrier on the pipe to prevent re-growth. Make sure you apply RootX within one hour of cutting the roots; this ensures the remaining root structure properly absorbs the RootX herbicide. Otherwise, you’ll need to wait 6-8 weeks before using RootX to allow root ends to develop. http://rootx.com/plumbers/faqs


In addition use the Application Directions from the Root-X Website instead of the ones on the label as the label is incorrect. 

You should use 5 gallons of water for each lb. of Root-X Applied....

The label is in the process of being updated but as it is a regulated herbicide the wheels of EPA Approval are turning slowly.

This information was confirmed with Dan Lawrence of Root-X in a post on DCF...


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

Redwood said:


> In addition use the Application Directions from the Root-X Website instead of the ones on the label as the label is incorrect.
> 
> You should use 5 gallons of water for each lb. of Root-X Applied....
> 
> ...


Do you rememner when " Root - X " was called "Tobys foaming root killer " ?
I think old Toby sold out in the early 90's.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Do you rememner when " Root - X " was called "Tobys foaming root killer " ?
> I think old Toby sold out in the early 90's.


No, I wasn't familiar with the product then...


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

Redwood said:


> No, I wasn't familiar with the product then...


His promo videos were funny as hell. 
He was a BIG old country boy, coverall and all !


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

I've been familiar with Root-X for a number of years but never heard anything on the success rate. 
I've started selling it but curious about your opinions and thoughts on this.
Never mind, I'm going to start a new thread on this.


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## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Do you rememner when " Root - X " was called "Tobys foaming root killer " ?
> I think old Toby sold out in the early 90's.


 TOBY or tim toibas is hooked on beating chess with a computer program.I talked to him awhile back and he is looking for some backers for a NEW root killing product that will last much longer than the present. He claimed their hasnt been any changes to his original formular.Tim said he wanted to put out a liquid root killer with a longer acting root killing period ,he just needed money. I am too old to be doing that kind of investing but if I was 20 yrs younger!!!

Tim Tobiason-Toby Chess ​ 

3516-15th St.​ 

Columbus, Nebraska 68601​ 

928-246-1580​ 

[email protected]​ 






















.

.

A 2nd chemical called dichlobenil was soon added to the VAPAM in combination to prevent re-growth into the line. Tree roots will not produce new feeder roots in its presence. The new combination us delivered in the form of a mechanical foam using surfactants and air compressor. The foam delivers the chemicals through the sewer pipe and into the joints, onto the roots and kills them. The trade name for this product is known as Vapo Rooter.




*Chapter 2 Invention of FRK (Foaming Root Killer) 1990’s*

In the mid 1980’s, Tim Tobiason (the author) had his sewer line at home stopped up with roots. I had put copper sulfate crystals down the line and they had failed to kill the roots and clear the line. I hired a rooter company with a sewer line camera to send it down the line and observe what happened when the copper crystals were flushed down it. The crystals simply flowed past the roots, underneath the overhanging roots and did not remain on the mass long enough to be absorbed. We had powdered copper sulfate in the feed mill that I ran, so I went to the mill and brought back several pounds. We also had a dry acid at the plant, so I grabbed a couple of pounds (Citric acid). I also stopped at the grocery store and picked up Mr bubble bubble bath and a box of baking soda.

We mixed the bubble bath and copper into the baking soda by hand, and then added this mix to the toilet bowl with the acid. The mix created a large volume of foam and we flushed it. As it traveled down the pipe, it filled it to the roof and deposited the copper onto the all the roots, top to bottom which we videotaped. The roots died off and the line cleared in a few weeks.

In the course of a few years, I left the feed mill and with the help of a farmer, I started Toby’s Chemical company in my garage. We chose dichlobenil to use as the active ingredient and sulfamic acid as the reactant with baking soda to release the gas used in foaming. This acid also has root killing properties. I also tested a variety of surfactants with various properties including maximizing foam volume, stabilizing the foam mass, reducing run-off, and penetrating grease and other coatings of the root masses. This formed the basis for our Confidential Statement of Formula for EPA and our subsequent patent applications.




3. Create a CSF (Confidential statement of formula) for testing and EPA approval from the above.
4. Send to lab for 6 acute toxicology tests (lab info and contacts attached). This will cost $22-24,000 unless the formula is unusually toxic (not likely).
5. Simultaneously, I will do the product chemistry and then send samples to PBI Gordon, the maker of Dichlobenil for a storage and stability study (test at 0, 30, 60 and 90 days + 180 days if necessary. (Product chemistry data requirements appear to have changed from when I last did them)
6. The above items can be done by the testing lab and formatted for EPA approval for $10-12,000. They do this regularly and would likely do it all perfectly the first time through. There is a chance that we would lose some time for EPA-OK if I do not do it perfectly and need to make corrections.
7. Locate a plant location. Ideally a cheap unused building we can buy for $5-10,000 which has running water and electricity. It will need to be zoned commercial which will allow us to operate a mixing and packaging business. (I had small town Nebraska in mind for this)
8. On completion of the above, I will finalize the label instructions including application directions and then I will submit to the EPA all the above paperwork for final approval. This may take 6-9 months from submission. The fee is not listed in the EPA forms I have. 
9. On receipt of EPA approval, we would obtain all the ingredients, packaging, printed labels, and equipment and begin manufacturing. I would also submit approvals for all 50 states which is a formality except for California and possibly New England states. The cost for state registrations is likely to be around $50 per state or about $2,500. The plant needs can be made small by buying small inventories and equipment as we did 20 years ago. Minimum would be $5,000. California Dichlobenil registration data is not supported by PBI Gordon. I fulfilled the requirement last time with data from U Cal-Davis. This may not be possible this time but there are other ways in.
10. I would begin sales and would also place an ad in the rooter trade magazine ($600 per month). Sales to 50 rooter companies a month of one case ($15 x 10 = $150/case) would be $7,500 a month with a material cost of about $1,000. My salary would be $300-400 a week during the start up and I could easily make all the production and handle all of the sales at this level myself. We would add help as we grow.
Currently there are only 3 makers of Root Killer products in the US that cover all the major markets.

11. I would also file for patents on the invention. I have withheld 2 or more specifics which relate to final formula and potential patent claims. I will divulge these on completion of a final agreement.

We can also use my van for company use, and computers for paperwork.


Good Luck
Tim Tobiason


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