# What the customer wanted.



## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

I put this bad boy in on saturday morning. The HO did not want to cut the wall to move the plumbing to make a cleaner, more direct install. This is what I came up with, and she LOVED it.:no:


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## Regulator (Aug 20, 2009)

She may change her mind when the trap seal fails.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

No bashing coming from me. That will probably work fine. It would have been nice if she would have you open the wall.

A question. Does your code allow the weir of the trap to be above the vent? Ours (NSPC) does not. We can't even use a wye/45 in a stack to pick up a trap arm. Must be sanitary tee.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

That bottle trap came with the sink that she orderd. So, I used it, and yes, it will fail.


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## Pipedoc (Jun 14, 2009)

S traps are legal in Florida?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Looks European, "S" trap extrordinare..


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

The top of the "vent" goes through the roof. I guess you mean the offset from the stub out. I think that since it is an 1.5" stub out, that as long as it is within 5' of the vent, it is fine, ill have to check though.


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## Regulator (Aug 20, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> That bottle trap came with the sink that she orderd. So, I used it, and yes, it will fail.


I saw the :no: on your post, so I knew you knew what I know.:laughing:


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Here they call the "connection" to the vent,of a sanitary tee, the highest point of the branch on the tee, which would be just below the hub on the top of the tee. We can not use a wye/45, because the directional wye would put the "connection" below the weir of the trap. They say it is prone to self siphon. I'm just wondering if you have the same deal, and which code.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Shoulda cut the legs off.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> The top of the "vent" goes through the roof. I guess you mean the offset from the stub out. I think that since it is an 1.5" stub out, that as long as it is within 5' of the vent, it is fine, ill have to check though.


yep. 5 feet


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

A real plumber would have drilled a hole in the glass shelf below and brought it down..


Next time, take your wifes wedding ring and scribe a circle in the glass.Then hit it with a hammer. It should just pop out. I have seen it done in the movies..


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## Regulator (Aug 20, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> The top of the "vent" goes through the roof. I guess you mean the offset from the stub out. I think that since it is an 1.5" stub out, that as long as it is within 5' of the vent, it is fine, ill have to check though.


5' at 1/4" per foot = 1 1/4" of fall to the connection of the vent - the trap arm has not dropped below the weir of the trap by the point it is vented. The trap seal remains intact.

In this application, the upper part of the trap arm/fixture drain is below the weir of the trap at the connection to the vent.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Regulator said:


> 5' at 1/4" per foot = 1 1/4" of fall to the connection of the vent - the trap arm has not dropped below the weir of the trap by the point it is vented. The trap seal remains intact.
> 
> In this application, the upper part of the trap arm/fixture drain is below the weir of the trap at the connection to the vent.


The weir of the trap is above the connection to the vent. (by about a foot)


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

The only way to make that one legal without raising the rough, would be to remove the shelf below.

It looks good, and will last a long time.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

house plumber said:


> yep. 5 feet


 You can be within 5' developed length of pipe, @ 1/4" rise per foot, from the connection to the vent. 

We cant go up a foot, then turn to pick up the trap arm (fixture drain)


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

RealLivePlumber said:


> You can be within 5' developed length of pipe, @ 1/4" rise per foot, from the connection to the vent.
> 
> We cant go up a foot, then turn to pick up the trap arm (fixture drain)


 I know that. Thats what he was saying. he thinks the wsate arm can be 5 feet on 1.5 and i agreed. I know you cant jump anything up you cut off your vent.


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## Regulator (Aug 20, 2009)

RealLivePlumber said:


> The weir of the trap is above the connection to the vent. (by about a foot)


:confused1: So, I'm not sure what your point is?


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

instead of the 90 he used after the trap, if he put a tee there with a studor (aav) vent on top he would be fine. And that would look real pretty


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## Pipedoc (Jun 14, 2009)

I think the point is that Rockstar has created an s-trap by the way he piped the tubular brass.


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## Regulator (Aug 20, 2009)

house plumber said:


> instead of the 90 he used after the trap, if he put a tee there with a studor (aav) vent on top he would be fine. And that would look real pretty


AAV legal there? Wouldn't it have to be above the FLR of the basin?


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Dont know if 90ing down from the trap arm would fly here, they would say its an "S" trap for sure. 

But, sometimes you have to do what you can.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Regulator said:


> Yes, it would. AAV legal there?


yes, they is


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Looks like somthing you'd see in the "Hood"..Did they have black lacquer furniture too? maybe one of those floor lamps that hang out over the room with 10 bulbs in it?


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Regulator said:


> AAV legal there? Wouldn't it have to be above the FLR of the basin?


 nope it can be below. a min of 4 inches above the weir I believe. 100% of the kitchens we do are islands so we have to use aav's. It would look funny to see on sticking out of the counter top


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Will never happen here, it is illegal


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

AAV's here must be above the FRL with the exception of an island sink


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

not here. only thing that we dont aav is wash machines. I dont think a washer will work correctly if it is. I'm not saying we aav everything, well some plumbers do. But at our company we run vents but if we have to aav something its no problem and it can be in the cabinet. Say for a lav we stub out 2 inch and on trim we glue a 90 or st 90 pointing up with a 2 x 1.5 tee and go straight off the top with the aav. We only need one 2 inch vent poking through the roof.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

It is S trapped fo sho. no permit though, and no worrys, and i cant see it from myhouse. Well, ***** I can see it from my house, every time i look at this damn thread. I didn't even think about that being S trapped. Must have had a blonde moment. The little po dunk town that this is in, I dont really think it would matter. You guys are right about the code on the 5' think. And the vent was broken when I turned up like that. 
And SLick, I will have to try cutting a hole through the glass with the wifes wedding ring, should work, JUST LIKE IN THE MOVIES. I love movies, everything that happens in movies are real, its movie magic!


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## Regulator (Aug 20, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> It is S trapped fo sho. no permit though, and no worrys, and i cant see it from myhouse. Well, ***** I can see it from my house, every time i look at this damn thread. I didn't even think about that being S trapped. Must have had a blonde moment. The little po dunk town that this is in, I dont really think it would matter. You guys are right about the code on the 5' think. And the vent was broken when I turned up like that.
> And SLick, I will have to try cutting a hole through the glass with the wifes wedding ring, should work, JUST LIKE IN THE MOVIES. I love movies, everything that happens in movies are real, its movie magic!


Movies are cool, but CARTOONS ROCK! ANYTHING is possible in a cartoon. :jester: :laughing:


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

here a water closet or washing machine can not be installed on a combination waste and vent, so no aav's.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Plasticman said:


> here a water closet or washing machine can not be installed on a combination waste and vent, so no aav's.



Unless I am misunderstanding you, what you mean is that we can NOT vent a toilet on a 2" vent that will also serve as the drain for a lavatory?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

You could always go back and install one of these then it would be just freakin perfect...:laughing:

Even the color is right...










Besides with a grid drain it probably drains too slow to have any problem maintaining trap seal even in an s-trap configuration...


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Redwood said:


> You could always go back and install one of these then it would be just freakin perfect...:laughing:
> 
> Even the color is right...
> 
> ...



Dude, that is awesome, i want one on all four corners of my bed post. SUh weet.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Unless I am misunderstanding you, what you mean is that we can NOT vent a toilet on a 2" vent that will also serve as the drain for a lavatory?


 Like this? This is legal


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

house plumber said:


> Like this? This is legal
> 
> View attachment 3911



Yes, that is what i mean, and is damn legal, im wondering what Plasticman is talking about, I guess he is logged off. I would really like to know though.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Yes, that is what i mean, and is damn legal, im wondering what Plasticman is talking about, I guess he is logged off. I would really like to know though.


 I dont know what he meant. The way he worded it was kindsa weird.


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## user2091 (Sep 27, 2009)

Here in Ca. s-trap no good! Should of got a torch and blown a hole through the glass for a more direct and custom install!


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

like you said, its not getting inspected. she's not going to pay you to cut walls and move plumbing. So what you did is fine. She will have to deal with any problems that come about since she didnt want to do it right. Your work looks good though.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Hell yea, I told her to rip the mirror off the wall, theres plenty of bling in that room to check out yo shiot.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

house plumber said:


> Like this? This is legal
> 
> View attachment 3911


That's even legal in IL.


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## PlumberDave (Jan 4, 2009)

UPC says no to the "S" Trap due to the growth over months/years shrinking the internal diameter of the pipe restricting the free movement of air and waste the "S" Trap will in time cause the siphoning of the trap seal which "seals" out the sewer gases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewer_gas


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## 130 PLUMBER (Oct 22, 2009)

house plumber said:


> like you said, its not getting inspected. she's not going to pay you to cut walls and move plumbing. So what you did is fine. She will have to deal with any problems that come about since she didnt want to do it right. Your work looks good though.


 
I would definitely write up a proposal just to cover your @ss to raise up the drain line in the wall in order to properly connect the new sink.As far as that being allowed here in chicagoland area :no:


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## Pipedoc (Jun 14, 2009)

How would the proposal cover you 130 Plumber?


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Redwood said:


> You could always go back and install one of these then it would be just freakin perfect...:laughing:
> 
> Even the color is right...
> 
> ...


 Chrome won't get you home:scooter:


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Unless I am misunderstanding you, what you mean is that we can NOT vent a toilet on a 2" vent that will also serve as the drain for a lavatory?


 
No,no,no. You got me all wrong. Talking about a combination drain and vent system like an island sink as in the following code:

*912.1 Type of fixtures. *A combination drain and vent system
shall not serve fixtures other than floor drains, standpipes,
sinks and lavatories.

Therefore as I interpret it, no aav can be used on either one. Kinda like we used to do on a kitchen island sink with the 3" with a cleanout plug installed in the top of the sanitary tee on the trap connection. That is a combination drain and vent

The code above in the new code book I think reads specifically to mention washing machines. This was from a 1995 code book but has been worded differently in the new one. Just can't find it online.


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## user2091 (Sep 27, 2009)

house plumber said:


> nope it can be below. a min of 4 inches above the weir I believe. 100% of the kitchens we do are islands so we have to use aav's. It would look funny to see on sticking out of the counter top


:thumbup:
you guys must be working in trailer parks down there! it's not legal to s trap and in ressidential plumbing we use what is called a loop vent. if you dig up a UPC code book it will detail this for you. works very good in the rough. if it's a peninsula fixture they allow for you to break below as long as you use drainage fittings and go as high up as possible before you break with vent. i have never had to compromise my install to this date with this principal.


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## user2091 (Sep 27, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Unless I am misunderstanding you, what you mean is that we can NOT vent a toilet on a 2" vent that will also serve as the drain for a lavatory?


 that would be a wet vent and is legal.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Maybe by your code, but not ours. It's perfectly legal here and there are over a million homes here in Fl plumbed that way that work just fine.



bigdaddyplumber said:


> that would be a wet vent and is legal.


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## LIVBMI (Sep 12, 2008)

In Louisians that is an S trap there for it would not pass code. I would not have installed it unless the wall was cut. If your spending that kind of money what is a few more dollors to do it correct.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*satruday morning combat...*



ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> I put this bad boy in on saturday morning. The HO did not want to cut the wall to move the plumbing to make a cleaner, more direct install. This is what I came up with, and she LOVED it.:no:
> 
> View attachment 3906
> 
> ...


 

that is called 
"creative plumbing on a satruday morning"
....I think it looks great
considering what you had to work with..

the picture looks like it is some sort of bronze instead of chrome?? .

if they are happy....that is all that matters.


this was a vented "p " trap configuration before the lady 
wanted the fancy lavaroty. giong into a vented 1 1/2 drain line
in the wall....... 

so this pretty new "1 1/4 s " trap is basicaly
dumping into a vented 1 1/2 arm.
...so I dont know if technically this is a true 
's" trap or not.???? 
its certainly not going to siphon like a s trap that has no vent


therefore....it will work...


its got to work... it can not ---not work.

dont let them beat you up about it.......


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

The original pictures are an S-trap. That is illegal in Florida too. I would not have done that because the way the laws are in Florida they will hold the contractor liable even if he was just following the HO's directions. The way they see it, the plumber knows the codes and should abide by them. If the HO wants it done than it must be to code. I would have done it up to code or told her to call someone else. It's not worth getting sued over.



LIVBMI said:


> In Louisians that is an S trap there for it would not pass code. I would not have installed it unless the wall was cut. If your spending that kind of money what is a few more dollors to do it correct.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

I know that Rsp knows it was wrong and I understand why he did it but the only thing about it is that I would not want my name connected with that kind of work unless maybe it was for a friend or relative. Not for Sue homeownwer just to make a buck.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

I know its wrong, you guys know its wrong, Bottom line, its wrong. Homeowner is happy, and I never have to see it again. What could they do anyways, make me change it? I sure will, at her expense.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

bigdaddyplumber said:


> :thumbup:
> you guys must be working in trailer parks down there! it's not legal to s trap and in ressidential plumbing we use what is called a loop vent. if you dig up a UPC code book it will detail this for you. works very good in the rough. if it's a peninsula fixture they allow for you to break below as long as you use drainage fittings and go as high up as possible before you break with vent. i have never had to compromise my install to this date with this principal.


Would you like to come down and see the $5- 20 million trailers we do. We have different codes you know. Loop vents are illegal here. And if you read what rsp said, he said she DIDNT want to pay him to cut the wall to raise the waste so he didnt have to do it the way it is pictured. But since she didnt want to cut the wall that was the only way he could do it. Plus, it's not getting inspected so he has nothing to worry about. She is the one that is going to have to deal with any problems that may occur. She was warned according to RSP. I didnt do it. If you read the first post in the thread, it was started by RSP. Instead of just looking at pictures treying to diagnose everything, try reading what he wrote and it will explain everything.

End rant.


*913.3 Vent installation below the fixture flood level rim.* The vent located below the flood level rim of the fixture being vented shall be installed as required for drainage piping in accordance with Chapter 7, except for sizing. The vent shall be sized in accordance with Section 916.2. The lowest point of the island fixture vent shall connect full size to the drainage system. The connection shall be to a vertical drain pipe or to the top half of a horizontal drain pipe. Cleanouts shall be provided in the island fixture vent to permit rodding of all vent piping located below the flood level rim of the fixtures. Rodding in both directions shall be permitted through a cleanout. 
*917.4 Location.* Individual and branch-type air admittance valves shall be located a minimum of 4 inches (102 mm) above the horizontal branch drain or fixture drain being vented.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

130 PLUMBER said:


> I would definitely write up a proposal just to cover your @ss to raise up the drain line in the wall in order to properly connect the new sink.As far as that being allowed here in chicagoland area :no:


I'm not writing nothing up. I didnt do the job. Quote the person who did the job and tell him how he should run a business. Thank you. have a nice day.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Here a plumber sub'd a job out to a plumber who was licensed but had no business or business license. That plumber screwed it all up. The H.O called the state and the state called the city. they went to his house and waited for him to come out one morning and asked him to come down to the office and have a chat. The plumber said he would but needs to go catch a job real quick.....they stopped him and said either you come now or we are sending a police officer back to pick him up later. they gave him 3 choices. Go correct the problems,give a full refund,or lose his plumbing license for a year,go to jail and then they will determine at that point if they are going to give it back. He gave a full refund and that was that. They warned him next time he would be fined and lose his license for a year.


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## user2091 (Sep 27, 2009)

house plumber said:


> Would you like to come down and see the $5- 20 million trailers we do. We have different codes you know. Loop vents are illegal here. And if you read what rsp said, he said she DIDNT want to pay him to cut the wall to raise the waste so he didnt have to do it the way it is pictured. But since she didnt want to cut the wall that was the only way he could do it. Plus, it's not getting inspected so he has nothing to worry about. She is the one that is going to have to deal with any problems that may occur. She was warned according to RSP. I didnt do it. If you read the first post in the thread, it was started by RSP. Instead of just looking at pictures treying to diagnose everything, try reading what he wrote and it will explain everything.
> 
> End rant.
> 
> ...


:thumbup: like i said hazard county! UPC is the only code i go by. and if i come out your way it will be to visit not to plumb so ya'll do the same!


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Protech said:


> The original pictures are an S-trap. That is illegal in Florida too. I would not have done that because the way the laws are in Florida they will hold the contractor liable even if he was just following the HO's directions. The way they see it, the plumber knows the codes and should abide by them. If the HO wants it done than it must be to code. I would have done it up to code or told her to call someone else. It's not worth getting sued over.


The New Plumber is on the way!
They'll handle it no problem!










:laughing:

It's just kinda sickening to know that while we are held to doing it right by having a license, the customer is perfectly free to find any Joe Handyman who will rig it using whatever cheap illegal method the customer decides and in the end it ends up with us not making the buck...:whistling2:


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

I d love to see a picture of how a handyman would have done that. No doubt. I think 3 or 4 slinky traps could have sufficed!


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> I know its wrong, you guys know its wrong, Bottom line, its wrong. Homeowner is happy, and I never have to see it again. What could they do anyways, make me change it? I sure will, at her expense.


Should have made the supply tubes garnet color, give that FSU look. Anyway, if the HO happy so are we. You will be back changing it sooner or later when that shine wears off...


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

In Rsp's defense, I think we have ALL done something illegal in plumbing at one time or another. Like, do we ALWAYS get a permit for everything? Wait till it gets slow in your area and your kids need to eat. You may see it in a different aspect then. I'm just saying. :rockon:


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## express (Nov 22, 2008)

Funny how some plumbing is against code in some areas but Ok in others. In NY we had 4" house traps on every house. Here in Va. none, so the stink of the whole neighbor come out of my roof vent and blows down while I'm on my deck.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

I don't understand a whole house trap. If the code says that a fixture is not to be double trapped, would a whole house trap be an exception. I'm just saying.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Plasticman said:


> I don't understand a whole house trap. If the code says that a fixture is not to be double trapped, would a whole house trap be an exception. I'm just saying.


The House Trap is vented on the house side so it is not double trapped.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> I know its wrong, you guys know its wrong, Bottom line, its wrong. Homeowner is happy, and I never have to see it again. What could they do anyways, make me change it? I sure will, at her expense.


It looks good, It will work and last a long time. Thats what you get for posting a picture of that POS...


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

slickrick said:


> It looks good, It will work and last a long time. Thats what you get for posting a picture of that POS...



Nobody in here offends me, or bothers me. I am VERY thick skinned, Not a PRUDE. Pictures of Hot Nurses, or Well shaped men do notmake me feel insecurities about myself. It takes a lot to get under my skin. I am a grown up, and the small things do not bother me. 
However, I KNEW, that this post would stir the pot big time, which is why I posted it to begin with.


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> Nobody in here offends me, or bothers me. I am VERY thick skinned, Not a PRUDE. Pictures of Hot Nurses, or Well shaped men do notmake me feel insecurities about myself. It takes a lot to get under my skin. I am a grown up, and the small things do not bother me.
> However, I KNEW, that this post would stir the pot big time, which is why I posted it to begin with.


How about pictures of my soft, doughy upper body? Would that offend you?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

jjbex said:


> How about pictures of my soft, doughy upper body? Would that offend you?


No but it may make me spray my monitor with coffee! :laughing:


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

If it works well, is going to work well for a long time, and the customer is happy, I see no problem with it. 

There's a better chance of TM switching to flat rate than you getting sued for that job.

Anyone here who act's as though they never bend the rules a little, is either out of work, full of it, or trying to project an "I'm the best plumber out there" image in a public forum. 


P.S. I love you guys!(And Girls!)


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

pauliplumber said:


> If it works well, is going to work well for a long time, and the customer is happy, I see no problem with it.
> 
> There's a better chance of TM switching to flat rate than you getting sued for that job.
> 
> ...


That's just crazy. Everyone knows, that I am the greatest thing going on in the world today.:thumbsup:


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

RSP,
you know you know, and I know you know, but does the rest of the forum know you know?


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

IT doesnt matter what they know about what I know, if they know that or not.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

I just don't know anymore


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## 130 PLUMBER (Oct 22, 2009)

Plasticman said:


> In Rsp's defense, I think we have ALL done something illegal in plumbing at one time or another. Like, do we ALWAYS get a permit for everything? Wait till it gets slow in your area and your kids need to eat. You may see it in a different aspect then. I'm just saying. :rockon:


I here you loud and clearfor some reason if im not able to make a repair up to code do to some crazy circumstance i would write up a proposal to make to proper repairs or have the customer sign off that they are aware of the issues.
The last thing you want is for some one to come behind you and tell the customer that you *#@!^ their plumbing


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

FOr the lukers out there, I never said that the drain assembly would FAIL. I simply said, that that is all that could be done to it. It will never fail.


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