# Non-modern fill valve/ballcock supply line connections



## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

I started this because I had a helper friday and was explaining how the rubber cone shaped washer is used with flared 3/8" OD copper for supply lines. I have done this exactly once however with a one piece toilet that would have been hell any other way and the old line was done the same. The supply line was 2" long.



The other, even older method is essentially the same as a tubular trap pipe connection. 1/2" copper(5/8" OD) or a 3/8" IPS nipple is inserted into the shank of the ball cock and a nut around the supply squeezes a square cut o-ring into the end of the shank which is reemed to make a ~45 degree bevel. Basically a gauge glass seal if you know what that is.


Do any of you use these now past connection methods? Seems like it's either flex lines or tubes with preformed ends.












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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

I worked for a company back in 2005-2007 where the boss was an old school plumber who learned in the 1950's how to cut cast iron soil pipe with a hammer and chisel.


While working there, we worked in a lot of the Palm Beach mansions on the ocean that were built in the 1920's & 1930's. So of course the homes had copper waste arms for sinks, cast iron stacks, etc. 

We used to use the chrome 3/8" supply lines {like the ones used for lavs} and we used them for W/C's. A nut and ferrule of course at the angle stop, but at the other end, a brass friction washer and a step rubber washer where the supply line inserted into the shank of the ballcock. This was tightened with a brass nut; not the plastic ones that come with toilets and ballcock packages. We used to use sweat stops, and we used to solder chrome plated brass p-traps as well. Really old school which I like.


Now on my own, I admit I'll use the flex supply lines for faucets but I'll usually use a ridgid chrome supply line for W/C's and put some nice-looking 45 degree bends on it.


But I am like you, I lament the flex connectors, and compression stuff which makes it easier for handymen and DIY's. Then these people brag that why call a plumber since the stuff is all sold at the home improvement centers.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tommy plumber said:


> But I am like you, I lament the flex connectors, and compression stuff which makes it easier for handymen and DIY's. Then these people brag that why call a plumber since the stuff is all sold at the home improvement centers.





I disagree. The flexible supply lines have a better track record in my book. But many of our floors/walls are slightly flexible. That can cause issues with hard supply lines, usually at the 3/8" or 1/2" compression joint. I usually use a braided stainless flexible supply line from wolverine brass. Yes the same ones can be bought in a store but that doesn't mean people are correct in saying it's not worth calling a plumber, for a number of reasons.


First, we understand the correct/industry standard way of doing things. There is no instruction booklet to what we do. At least, I have yet to see a comprehensive one. Knowledge for each individual situation is what's important. Knowledge of what will be a reliable configuration.



Now a days this knowledge can easily be found on the internet, this forum being a shining example of sites devoted to helping the diy community while making the site owner a little wealthier. Some might say at the expense of plumbers like you and I.



Second, we have all the parts and know exactly which ones to use. Essentially my van is a rolling plumbing supply section of a hardware store. Just in the figure of time/labor it's worth it for the butcher to keep cutting meat and to call a plumber to replace his faucet. What would take the plumber 2hrs to do might take the butcher 6hrs because he has never done it before. It's more cost effective for the butcher to process the animals while the plumber handles the pipes.


This old timey setup is usurped by the fact that we have extreme wealth gaps. Those in the middle, aka not in need of assistance are usually a good ways ahead of those in poverty. The wealthy are considerably ahead of both groups. There are certain milestones which do more than put you over a line, they catapult you over a financial wall. A car for instance is one. If you don't have a reliable car you likely can't expect to be middle class in it's entirety. You could live in the city and walk everywhere but that requires a higher cost of living and a lack of the comforts one might associate with being middle class like a house, yard, garage etc.


I completely understand why those lower than middle class choose to spend 10hrs and 50$ doing what might take a plumber 2hrs at a much higher cost to them. If they only make 10$/hr at a fast food place why would they call a plumber who charges 85$/hr? This person has much more time than money. You as a business owner have more money than time so you make the opposite decision. You might hire someone to regrade your driveway for 2000$ instead of buying a 500$ load of gravel and doing it yourself.


Besides, I bet many of you who don't like the diy people still do some of your own electrical and mechanical work. For instance, tango is constantly pissed that customers diy stuff but how much work has he done to his own vehicles when time allows? Heck diy automotive is even worse than diy plumbing!!! He is putting the lives of others on the road at risk!!!!!




But I digress, this isn't a proffesional vs diy thread.










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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Agree with Skoronesa, I've preferred ss flex lines for decades. Much less leak prone. If it's a multimillion dollar house, then sure I'll install a rigid connector and will use a tubing bender but a flex connector is quicker and much less leak prone.

And I agree on I don't care about sub middle class 'customers' that will spend their entire weekend trying to avoid hiring a plumber. They are of no use to me. Sharkbites and flex connectors help weed them out before we ever get a call.

I'm of no use to a Rolls Royce dealership or Learjet so it's not like I'm discriminating.


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

skoronesa said:


> Besides, I bet many of you who don't like the diy people still do some of your own electrical and mechanical work. For instance, tango is constantly pissed that customers diy stuff but how much work has he done to his own vehicles when time allows? Heck diy automotive is even worse than diy plumbing!!! He is putting the lives of others on the road at risk!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You have it wrong about me. I don't care people who do their own plumbing. They can do it right or they can screw it up all they want. The problem with that is they screw it up for the next home owner who's going to buy that bric a brac house without knowing their health is at risk. What I don't like are non plumbers and those who don't have a licence who do plumbing for a profit ; Hacks, GC's, next door neighbor, the fake plumber, DIY house flippers, etc. I may not like it but I also love it because they make me money, it's my bread and butter.

You want to talk about fixing your own cars, You fix your own car too! I'll tell you what I did my own alignment at the garage because they didn't know how to do a solid axle! Another time a friend and I mounted our own tires at a garage because he couldn't do it. My last alignment I had to show the young mechanic which bolts and nuts to adjust because the first time round they were 2-3 mechanics on it and they didn't even touch those bolts and when I got the truck back it wasn't aligned properly and the bolts still loose. I had specified on the work order to do it!


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> I disagree. The flexible supply lines have a better track record in my book. But many of our floors/walls are slightly flexible. That can cause issues with hard supply lines, usually at the 3/8" or 1/2" compression joint. I usually use a braided stainless flexible supply line from wolverine brass. Yes the same ones can be bought in a store but that doesn't mean people are correct in saying it's not worth calling a plumber, for a number of reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ill disagree with you on that...solid supply lines wont leak if installed correctly, and they will hold up for 50+ years...I never had a call back for a leaky solid supply installed with brass nuts..
now the SS flexible lines even have printed on the install label to change them out in 10 years..and the plastic nut ones might not last that long..
yes they are much easier to install and I have used them for the economy job or if the area to install is so tight its not worth the fight to get a solid supply installed...
but for the last 100 years till they were invented solid supply lines were installed and some still up and running leak free...
dont blame flimsy floors or fixture installs for leaking solid supplies...do the right install and have a solid fixture to connect to...


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Tango said:


> You have it wrong about me. I don't care people who do their own plumbing. ......What I don't like are non plumbers and those who don't have a licence who do plumbing for a profit.....
> 
> You want to talk about fixing your own cars, You fix your own car too!....





Yeah, I mischaracterized your feelings on diy.


And also yes, I do work on my own vehicles, that one was sarcasm to point out the hypocriticism of some of the other guys. They will change braking components on their (HEAVY)vehicles they drive on public roads at high speeds, sometimes pulling trailers. But if a homeowner changes a shower valve with sharkbites they act like the house will crumble and children will die.










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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> Yeah, I mischaracterized your feelings on diy.
> 
> 
> And also yes, I do work on my own vehicles, that one was sarcasm to point out the hypocriticism of some of the other guys. They will change braking components on their (HEAVY)vehicles they drive on public roads at high speeds, sometimes pulling trailers. But if a homeowner changes a shower valve with sharkbites they act like the house will crumble and children will die.
> ...





if you know what you are doing( fixing your own vehicle) there is nothing wrong with that, if you take a guess on fixing your own vehicle thats the problem..
when I work on my own vehicles I spend take a few extra moments to make sure its done right..out of high school I worked in an auto shop and saw plenty of faulty work come back ( not work done by me)and people were dam lucky not to have been killed...just because a shop is certified in repairs means nothing about getting it done correct and safe...
when I work on my vehicles they are mine and its me behind the wheel, so I want it 110% right..most shops could care less and just want to make $$$, so they slam the new parts on and send it out the door,,,


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> if you know what you are doing( fixing your own vehicle) there is nothing wrong with that, if you take a guess on fixing your own vehicle thats the problem..
> when I work on my own vehicles I spend take a few extra moments to make sure its done right..out of high school I worked in an auto shop and saw plenty of faulty work come back ( not work done by me)and people were dam lucky not to have been killed...just because a shop is certified in repairs means nothing about getting it done correct and safe...
> when I work on my vehicles they are mine and its me behind the wheel, so I want it 110% right..most shops could care less and just want to make $$$, so they slam the new parts on and send it out the door,,,







I am glad we agree! Some plumbers don't care so they slap it together and when the homeowner calls a month later they don't answer. And just because you aren't a plumber doesn't mean you won't spend a couple extra minutes making sure it is done correctly.


Then you add in helpful, informative websites like this one and you can really see how diy plumbing is within the reach of most homeowners.








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## alson (Apr 18, 2014)

Nostalgia break:


Does any one else remember when water closet supply lines were 3/8" chrome pipe
with "candle wicking" wrapped around the pipe and held in place by the brass closet supply nut? Mostly on wall hung tanks with 14" rough bowls. Candle wicking also was wrapped around the flush el and secured with a 2" brass nut. Some of the really old tanks were wood with a sheet metal liner.



Somehow it didn't leak.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

alson said:


> Nostalgia break:
> 
> Does any one else remember when water closet supply lines were 3/8" chrome pipe
> with "candle wicking" wrapped around the pipe and held in place by the brass closet supply nut? Mostly on wall hung tanks with 14" rough bowls. Candle wicking also was wrapped around the flush el and secured with a 2" brass nut. Some of the really old tanks were wood with a sheet metal liner.
> ...





That is what I decribed:






skoronesa said:


> The other, even older method is essentially the same as a tubular trap pipe connection. 1/2" copper(5/8" OD) or a 3/8" IPS nipple is inserted into the shank of the ball cock and a nut around the supply squeezes a square cut o-ring into the end of the shank which is reemed to make a ~45 degree bevel. Basically a gauge glass seal if you know what that is.






The candle wicking you describe is actually the replacement. When the rubber washer fails you chip it out and use wicking with some dope instead of pulling everything apart.


It works just like jute caulking on a wooden ship. When it gets wet it expands. The space between the fibers shrinks so small the surface tension of the water won't let it fit.


I have pictures of exactly what you describe from a 100 yr old cabin in the woods on a lake.



The tube going up from the galv is thinwall 3/8" IPS od pipe. It has rust streaks from the chrome plated steel escutcheon on the floor. The tank is lined with a copper box. Probably original. The tank is actually just painted wood not porcelain and was definitely never water proof. The fill valve must have been 70yrs old. It was only 4" tall and I am sure that every year when this place was drained for the winter it sucked near all of the tank water into the house.


What's really cool is that this is a REALLY old toilet. You can see the vent take off for the bowl has been filled with some type of putty. If this was utilized it would have been piped with 2" galv round ductwork into the chimney to provide a constant draft sucking odors from the bowl. Must have been a brisk experience!


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

Here are some more pics. The 3/8"x1/2" bushing wouldn't come out of the 90 so I did the twist with some street fittings. I didn't have an ips 45.



If I ever get frail and cold all the time and move somewhere that's warm all the time, this is the type of shanty I want to live in.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

I hated to do any work on those toilets, it was a freaking balancing act to get the tank back on and secured while trying to line up the flush elbow...glad not many are left around..


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I hated to do any work on those toilets, it was a freaking balancing act to get the tank back on and secured while trying to line up the flush elbow...glad not many are left around..





It can be a pain. The easiest way is to sit on the seat lid while holding the tank in your lap and the lags in your mouth. It's easier if there are threaded lag studs sticking out of the wall instead. Then you can hang it on those and put the nuts on.












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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

skoronesa said:


> It can be a pain. The easiest way is to sit on the seat lid while holding the tank in your lap and the lags in your mouth. It's easier if there are threaded lag studs sticking out of the wall instead. Then you can hang it on those and put the nuts on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



part of the problem with that is working between your legs or around the outside of them as they are holding the tank up, as you are messing with the bolts and fitting the elbow into the tank and bowl at the same time...
its been years since the last one I wrestled with and hopefully many more before the next one..


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> part of the problem with that is working between your legs or around the outside of them as they are holding the tank up, as you are messing with the bolts and fitting the elbow into the tank and bowl at the same time...
> its been years since the last one I wrestled with and hopefully many more before the next one..


I'm glad I never saw one of those, we don't have crazy stuff like that. We only have 6 new Liter toilets now and it's been like that since the 90's.


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## alson (Apr 18, 2014)

At some point, in the 1980's or 90's we stopped repairing leaking flush els or spuds and would not replace the bowls. We still replaced (14") ballcocks etc., but insisted upon a new toilet combination if the bowl or tank needed to be R&R.


It wasn't that we didn't know how or couldn't do it, it was just that we couldn't charge enough to make it profitable. The customer was better served by having the toilet replaced.



And if the old ballcock had a top inlet or through the back wall of the china/wood tank, fugidaboutit!


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

alson said:


> At some point, in the 1980's or 90's we stopped repairing leaking flush els or spuds and would not replace the bowls. We still replaced (14") ballcocks etc., but insisted upon a new toilet combination if the bowl or tank needed to be R&R.
> 
> 
> It wasn't that we didn't know how or couldn't do it, it was just that we couldn't charge enough to make it profitable. The customer was better served by having the toilet replaced.
> ...



and then you have people like my PITA sister that likes the OLD crap....when ever she calls to have plumbing done its always an adventure.....like a wall hung toilet with the tank up by the ceiling and shower faucets that go up the wall with handles and outlets for all kinds of accessories...and of course its all in polished brass..god help you if there is a scratch on anything..and the worse part I cant charge much to do it..if it was a regular customer i would charge enough to scare them away...:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> and then you have people like my PITA sister that likes the OLD crap....when ever she calls to have plumbing done its always an adventure.....like a wall hung toilet with the tank up by the ceiling and shower faucets that go up the wall with handles and outlets for all* kings of accessories*...and of course its all in polished brass..god help you if there is a scratch on anything..and the worse part I cant charge much to do it..if it was a regular customer i would charge enough to scare them away...:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


Yep you are the king of accessories! :biggrin:


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> Yep you are the king of accessories! :biggrin:


lol..kinds works too...fixed


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## alson (Apr 18, 2014)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> and then you have people like my PITA sister that likes the OLD crap....when ever she calls to have plumbing done its always an adventure.....like a wall hung toilet with the tank up by the ceiling and shower faucets that go up the wall with handles and outlets for all kinds of accessories...and of course its all in polished brass..god help you if there is a scratch on anything..and the worse part I cant charge much to do it..if it was a regular customer i would charge enough to scare them away...:vs_laugh::vs_laugh:


 1) Have a customer in a very large, very old house that has always wanted to keep things original. I had to replace an 11/4" lavatory trap by lead wiping a new 17 gauge chrome trap into the lead sticking out of the wall. Of course I had to file off the chrome first!


2)Always remember that you can never make any money doing work for friends or family. Even if you charge them two dollars they will believe that they were overcharged. I have a couple of friends that don't even ask how much they owe me and I have one that doesn't ask and doesn't give a thank you.:vs_mad: These types are now getting referred out to other plumbers who I know will charge them plenty.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

I love fixing old crap. We have tons of customers with old stuff in their houses and they are more than willing to pay the T&M to fix it. I carry more stuff to fix faucets that are 30+ years old than ones from the last two decades. The new stuff just isn't worth fixing and often times can't be fixed.


Our fixtures person and I have a constant passive aggressive battle through email where I say kohler is crap and the reasons why and they say other brands are crap with no justification.


You can still buy quality items but a good faucet is at least 300-500$ for a two handle. The single handle ones are garbage for the most part. Delta still sells seats and springs model but moen doesn't make any 1200 series anymore  Just that stupid black plastic ceramic cartridge that fails easy.











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