# Water Heaters....IPC



## PlumberPete (Nov 14, 2009)

I was wondering if someone could let me know where I can find that a valve IS NOT allowed on the hot water outlet of a water heater and also where it states that PeX can not tie directly into a water heater. I know in the past that you need 24" of copper before you can run Pex into the heater. I am licensed in both MA and CT. I've looked through both code books and can't seem to find this info anywhere. I know I learned these things somewhere.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Maybe a local code, I dont understand the no valve on hot side of W.H thing. Installing a valve on the hot and cold side of W.H is recommended for multi story buildings. Maybe the A.H.J is worried about someone turning off the hot side valve and not the cold and heater getting to hot or too much pressure, thats what t&p valves are for. As far as the pex I thought it was 16" of ridgid pipe necessary then you could transition to pex.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

I know that UPC and IPC differ on somethings, and each State adds and removes as they see fit. 

Indiana UPC does not have any of the information in it. It has been hotly debated around here, but it is not code. 

Is it good practice to go with metal off the heater, in my opinion, yes. As for the valve on the hot side, seems necessary to me, but I know guys that do it.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

IPC 503.1 requires a valve on the cold water to prevent disruption of the remainder of the cold water system. A valve on the hot water side is not pohibited by IPC, just not required. On the pex, I don't have info. I would assume that the metal is to protect the tubing from the heat coming from the flue on a gas heater.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

We are NSPC, and like Slick said, a valve is not required on the wh outlet, but is allowed. 

Our code says "if a shutoff valve is provided in the hot water supply, it shall not isolate any safety devices from the heater or storage tank. Shutoff valves shall be gate, ball, plug or butterfly type"

The 24" pex rule comes from the manufacturers instructions, which, if more stringent than the code, must be followed.


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Here too. MUST have on the cold (Inlet) side, CAN have on hot side (But not required)

As far as the copper extension? Most of the time I think its more of a "I feel better" thing knowing that the pex is away from the heat source.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

RealLivePlumber said:


> We are NSPC, and like Slick said, a valve is not required on the wh outlet, but is allowed.
> 
> Our code says "if a shutoff valve is provided in the hot water supply, it shall not isolate any safety devices from the heater or storage tank. Shutoff valves shall be gate, ball, plug or butterfly type"
> 
> The 24" pex rule comes from the manufacturers instructions, which, if more stringent than the code, must be followed.


So that is electric or gas, correct?


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

slickrick said:


> So that is electric or gas, correct?


 
Correct.


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## Pal (Jun 12, 2010)

WE did one building that had electric water heaters with pex conected directly to the water heater,passed inspection.


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## PlumberPete (Nov 14, 2009)

slickrick said:


> So that is electric or gas, correct?


Ok manufacturers specs. Makes sense. Thanks guys.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Pal said:


> WE did one building that had electric water heaters with pex conected directly to the water heater,passed inspection.


True, but as has been said, I highly doubt it is in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations. The pex of course.


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## Richard Hilliard (Apr 10, 2010)

*water heaters IPC*

It used to be located in the manufacturers specification on the water heater. I know it used to be on Rheems however I have not read it in recent times.


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## PlumberJake (Nov 15, 2010)

From a Rheem Gas Water Heater Owners Manual: 

Water Supply Connections
Refer to the illustration below for suggested typical installation. The installation of unions or
flexible copper connectors is recommended on the hot and cold water connections so that the
water heater may be easily disconnected for servicing if necessary. The HOT and COLD water
connections are clearly marked and are 3/4” NPT on all models. Install a shut-off valve in the cold
water line near the water heater.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*its just wise*

 its probably wise to extend the copper up 
a foot or so then switch to pex cause no one really knows 
how well the expansion and contraction will go after another 5-10 years...

look at what happens with CPVC connect directly to the heaters....


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Manufacturers state not to run pex within 6" of a recessed light fixture, or any source of heat, for that matter. 

If were using it, we walk through with the electrician, to be sure we all have our space.


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## 1plumb4uall (Jan 6, 2010)

I thought the PEX water heater thing was becuse you gota have the distance from the flue


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

So how do you do a full repipe in pex in a house when you're still using copper through the foundation wall, out of the water heater. :whistling2::laughing:


Nobody is mentioning this, and there must not be any actively thinking out the dangers of "what if" with a water heater, the most dangerous device relating to pressure and thermal expansion. 

There's absolutely no clear reason to have a valve on the hot side of a water heater, and the same goes for a thermal expansion tank with a valve isolating from the system.


Main valve at the entrance shuts the whole equation down, no water to speak of.

Valving off the thermal expansion tank is the idea of a lazy plumber. KY strictly prohibits this because the design allows the possibility of not protecting the system if the valve is thrown off. 

They enforce the installation of a thermal expansion tank between the cold water shutoff and top of the water heater, extending that line 40' if need be. This way if the water is shut off, water heater running, it still has thermal expansion protection. No two ways around that statement.


Every single water heater replacement I've done with 2 valves, one on hot, one on cold? The hot was always removed, always.

When you install plumbing, the average person with not a lick of plumbing knowledge can have the possibility of working on your latest repair or upgrade. 

If you do your job correctly, a lawyer cannot tear it apart in a court of law, especially when you supercede your local code and think outside of minimum code requirements, which is exactly what you code book implies.

When a property owner has a leak, or plumbing emergency involving water and drains backing up, their first reaction is to start throwing valves off all over the basement and anything relating to a water line. Seen it happen numerous times.

When you install an isolation valve on the cold and hot of any water heater, you now have a vessel that's building pressure by not only the heated water in the tank at standstill, but a thermostat that will kick on the gas or electric when it senses a call for more hot water. 

Metal fatigue in that tank will absorb some of the expansion, a properly installed thermal expansion tank will absorb the expansion...but you've isolated numerous opportunities for a faucet to leak, or a fill valve in a toilet to leak, relieving the pressure buildup. 

We all know that T&P valves have a chronic history of clogging up/sealing themselves after not being operated/triggered once a year and replaced every 2 years like manufacture suggestion.

You're staring at a pressure cooker with no relief valve. If that tank sits there over a course of a day, 2 valves isolating the entire house from the tank, and a stuck T&P? 

Bad BAD situation where things can go wrong. 

If you don't install that valve on the hot side, it has the entire hot side equation of water lines to remove thermal expansion or buildup by either creating a leak or waiting for the next use.

I've seen water heaters blow apart out of their jackets without that valve on the hot side, can you imagine what would of happened if it was? 

There's a million ways to stop water flow to a water heater while replacing, and the guy typing this long response doesn't even have a get swet tool to stop water flow. 

Don't endanger your clientell over laziness. Treat them as those who don't understand the what ifs and they'll be fine as a result. Double valve a water heater and a dangerous condition can arise, and a lawyer will find your negligence beyond following minimum state code.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> There's a million ways to stop water flow to a water heater while replacing, and the guy typing this long response doesn't even have a get swet tool to stop water flow.


Get Swet Tool? Im intrigued...


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

U.A.til.I.die said:


> Get Swet Tool? Im intrigued...


It's a Kentucky thing...................


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

I thought sharkbites replaced Get Swets.


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

I don't use it, therefore I cantz spelz it.


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## regionalplumbin (Aug 3, 2010)

I didn't read to far back but did anyone address the issue of having 2 valves on hot and cold side and the effects of potential hazards? Not to beat a dead horse if someone has already gone into it but if both are shut off and the burner continues to run and the t&P fails what do we have?

Instant Bomb


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

regionalplumbin said:


> I didn't read to far back but did anyone address the issue of having 2 valves on hot and cold side and the effects of potential hazards? Not to beat a dead horse if someone has already gone into it but if both are shut off and the burner continues to run and the t&P fails what do we have?
> 
> Instant Bomb


I am wearing this out.......




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## philackey (Feb 1, 2011)

*Code on Pex*

UPC 604.11.2 *Pex tubing shall not be installed within the first 18" of piping connected to a water heater. *

_._


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## Plumber3653 (May 5, 2010)

The concern of a hot valve being closed and the tank turning into a "bomb" was created by those who do not understand plumbing fully. IF the T&P valve fails and IF the thermostat fails and continues to fire the burner and IF both hot and cold valves are closed on the inlet and outlet of the tank then yes, it could happen. But even if there is no valve on the hot side, the safety failures listed above will create a dangerous situation at every faucet, valve and fixture throughout the whole house. I have seen this scenario in real life and without a valve on the hot outlet, the tank was ready to blow. Local code enforcement has added this restriction to their codes because they have been scared by a misinformed person.


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## beavercreekhc (Mar 15, 2010)

does anyones ahj make you use di-electric unions still? we have to use em in one city yet but all the others are fine. we can have a ball valve on hot side but it is contractors choice. we have to stay 18" off the water heater before going to a different pipe other than copper such as cpvc or pex.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Incorrect. Gas only.

I will need a link stating otherwise before I buy that crock.



RealLivePlumber said:


> Correct.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

responses in blue



DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> So how do you do a full repipe in pex in a house when you're still using copper through the foundation wall, out of the water heater. :whistling2::laughing: You don't. You use threaded red brass.
> 
> 
> Nobody is mentioning this, and there must not be any actively thinking out the dangers of "what if" with a water heater, the most dangerous device relating to pressure and thermal expansion. That's because you are making an assumption that your proposed method is the only option.
> ...


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

Great points Dunbar and Protech.

I never thought about the potential for making a closed system for blowing out sediment in the heater itself.:thumbup:

But then again I'm more familiar with new construction rather than service. But as I inch closer to getting my license numbers, I am trying my best to absorb the importance of not just the install but the potential for servicing the install in the future.

Just sounds that either way there is potential for disaster in a "worst case scenario." The cost of being a plumber


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## Plumber3653 (May 5, 2010)

It's nice to hear somebody else explain/respond to clear up some of the myths associated with plumbing, Protech. Nice job, I no longer feel like it's 'me vs. them' .


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## donchange (Feb 27, 2009)

CardinalPumbing said:


> I was wondering if someone could let me know where I can find that a valve IS NOT allowed on the hot water outlet of a water heater and also where it states that PeX can not tie directly into a water heater. I know in the past that you need 24" of copper before you can run Pex into the heater. I am licensed in both MA and CT. I've looked through both code books and can't seem to find this info anywhere. I know I learned these things somewhere.


"IMPORTANT – Zurn PEX:
• should not be stored or installed where it will be exposed to direct or
indirect ultraviolet light (i.e. sunlight)."
http://www.zurn.com/operations/pexrh/pdfs/installation/PEXDesApplGuide.pd

It is the same for Uponor’s AquaPEX .


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

It's the cheap and lazy plumber who doesn't add a valve on hw side of the hwh as already stated you have not interfered with the relief valve 

Let's say you have all the taps off is that going to endanger your customer 

About a year ago the boiler division instituted that boilers (incl steam) over 350,000 btu must have valves on the header (and by code would now be required on return).
Talk about a bomb I asked the inspectors why they wanted this, the best answer (most had no reason) I got was so you can test the pressuretrols and relief valve ?????? Seriously 
So in conclusion how do you test your relief valves?

Sent from my EVO 4G using Plumbing Zone


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

_IPC 2009
*606.1 Location of full-open valves.* Full open valves shall be installed in the following locations:
#4. On the base of every water riser pipe in occupancies other than multiple-family residential occupancies that are two stories or less in height and in one- and two-family residential occupancies._

According to this section of the IPC, if the hot water line feeds directly upstairs or directly downstairs, a shutoff at or near the water heater on the hot side would be required.

For instance (if I am interpreting correctly), a three story office building with a water heater in the basement and the hot side of the WH goes straight up into a chase. I believe that makes that a _"water riser pipe_" according to the above paragraph. Thus requiring a shutoff valve. Since the code offers no prohibition of a valve on the outlet side of the tank as an exception, it is apparently deemed safe and acceptable.


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## Plumber3653 (May 5, 2010)

Yes, that is a great example. Consider also that if branches of the hot water supply are valved at the risers it also creates the same hazard that was feared, whether it is two risers with valves or twenty risers with valves.
Nice way to put real life as an example, plbgbiz.


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