# Give me your opinions on water heating choice



## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

Have a 12 year old 50 gal. bradford white NG atmospheric vent now.Sometime in the future it's going to need to be replaced and have been debating the idea of a tankless.Current heater will sometimes run out with guests in the house,normally it's just the 2 of us.Has 3 full baths (one with 3 heads)kitchen,laundry
The heater is jammed in a closet with the furnace now so upsizing isn't a choice,height is limited due to where it ties into the B vent for the furnace.House is a raised ranch on a slab so relocating also is not a choice.
50 gallon heaters are running almost $500 and I see 6.5 GPM tankless at $600 and change.
I have plenty of NG to feed a tankless,have 110 VAC,avg groundwater temp is @50 deg. F,flue is a straight shot out through a 2 car heated/cooled garage,current heater is centrally located between 3 baths and the kitchen.Labor cost doesn't figure in if I'm doing it,so whats your choice when replacement time comes along?


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## gap1927 (Feb 25, 2014)

What kind of tankless is only $600? 
I realize you are in the US so prices are lower but we pay about $1500 for a Rinnai or Navien here in Canada.

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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

im in the USA, so what tankless is $500.00? im guessing some made in china crap...but post a link to brand and pricing..


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## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

Just priced a tankless here in ontario like 1750 from our supplier... pv hw tank was 1250 ish thanks to trumps tariffs and our canadian peso..


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

I’ll never put a tankless in my house. For one, my city water quality, but that’s my issue. Even if you have good water quality you’re supposed to flush them with chemicals every year. Also there is so much more that can go bad.

If You know an election and get 220 over there get a rheem marathon. I installed ten of them on one job. A few hours before inspection we fired them up, and I kid you not in about 15 minutes the water was already about 100 degrees.

In fact I put one in at the humane society. Their 40 gallon heater would run out of hot water in 15 minutes when washing out the kennels. Replaced it with a marathon and no matter what, they haven’t ever run out of hot water.

As far as cost to run it vs gas, I don’t know. But I do know they’re very efficient.


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

Cost isn't the main factor,function is what I'm looking at



ShtRnsdownhill said:


> im in the USA, so what tankless is $500.00? im guessing some made in china crap...but post a link to brand and pricing..


600 and change not 500.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rinnai-...nterior-Tankless-Water-Heater-V65iN/306655643
first one that popped up

or this one for under $1000

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rinnai-...rior-Tankless-Water-Heater-RUCS75iN/306655610

or this one

https://www.amazon.com/Rinnai-RUC80...4583&s=gateway&sprefix=rinnia,aps,168&sr=8-14


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

Is a Cash Acme Tank Booster or E max booster an option?

When you say you have plenty of gas, is that just a feeling, or did you work the numbers? No gas work at all? You on a 2lb meter, etc etc? The heater you linked to is direct vent, and on the edge of not supplying flow for 3 showers, I would go bigger just to be safe. Your b vent will need ripped out for that unit, if I am understanding your closet location, I would think going up would be best, so you would need the Ubink vent kit. If rennai makes a b vent type unit, you would need to figure make up air, communicating spaces and grate sizing between floors/walls/doors. It usually works out to a 2 car garage needed for make up air.

I am more firmiliar with Noritz products, and they offer units that use PVC venting options for exhaust and intake, that make install very flexible if you run into issues with venting. 3in pvc can go like 150ft including bends. Rennai may offer the same, I am not sure though.

You will need (should have) a valve kit for servicing, so that will add to your cost.

Hard to figure prices without seeing the install. I am not a big fan of tankless. There are times when it makes sense financially and can save you money, your situation is not really one of them, but if you go into it understanding that it is a luxury appliance, then the extra cost of install and maintenance wont surprise you.

Edit: the second and third link are pvc vent type, and should make your install a bit easier, but again, without seeing your install, it's tough to say. Im in NC, so outdoor units are an option that makes sense sometimes, I don't know about your area though.


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## gap1927 (Feb 25, 2014)

Venomthirst said:


> Just priced a tankless here in ontario like 1750 from our supplier... pv hw tank was 1250 ish thanks to trumps tariffs and our canadian peso..


Rheem 50 gal power vent is $950 at Home Cheapo and a Bradford-White is around $1300 at Wolseley, WTF? Is the BW really worth that much more?? Same warranty too.

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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

I've got a large tankless in my house and it's awesome. Plenty of water for multiple showers running at once. We have family visit regularly and often have 2/3 showers running.

I've got 2 brothers, 2 sisters, parents, uncle, neighbors, all with tankless. Descaling is super easy if that's a concern.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

I put a takagi in my sisters house at least 15 years ago and havent touvhed it since and its still working no issues....except now that I stated that, im gona wait for the phone call its not working now...


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

leakfree said:


> Have a 12 year old 50 gal. bradford white NG atmospheric vent now.Sometime in the future it's going to need to be replaced and have been debating the idea of a tankless.Current heater will sometimes run out with guests in the house,normally it's just the 2 of us.Has 3 full baths (one with 3 heads)kitchen,laundry
> The heater is jammed in a closet with the furnace now so upsizing isn't a choice,height is limited due to where it ties into the B vent for the furnace.House is a raised ranch on a slab so relocating also is not a choice.
> 50 gallon heaters are running almost $500 and I see 6.5 GPM tankless at $600 and change.
> I have plenty of NG to feed a tankless,have 110 VAC,avg groundwater temp is @50 deg. F,flue is a straight shot out through a 2 car heated/cooled garage,current heater is centrally located between 3 baths and the kitchen.Labor cost doesn't figure in if I'm doing it,so whats your choice when replacement time comes along?



Could you hang a tankless above a small indirect?



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## SSP (Dec 14, 2013)

If installing Tankless, best not to cheap out. Naviens have 25 year warranty on heat exchanger & are perfect for almost any retrofit application. You can even add on a fan-coil to your furnace if you want to get fancy. The super high efficiency is not only cost effective long term but qualifies you up to $1000 rebate in Canada.

Idk what rebates, if any are available in your State. Over here that rebate makes upgrading to Tankless comparable to a 50G PDV. Makes it an easier sell to customers so I have installed dozens of Navien's with no call backs or issues. We always provide annual maintenance too which is very easy & profitable.


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## gap1927 (Feb 25, 2014)

SSP said:


> The super high efficiency is not only cost effective long term but qualifies you up to $1000 rebate in Canada.


Are you in Ontario? I thought Doug Ford cancelled out all the rebates?

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## SSP (Dec 14, 2013)

gap1927 said:


> Are you in Ontario? I thought Doug Ford cancelled out all the rebates?


This is Alberta but may not be around much longer. Our Energy Efficiency rebate program is funded via carbon tax which is in question with current elections.


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

SSP said:


> If installing Tankless, best not to cheap out. Naviens have 25 year warranty on heat exchanger & are perfect for almost any retrofit application. You can even add on a fan-coil to your furnace if you want to get fancy. The super high efficiency is not only cost effective long term but qualifies you up to $1000 rebate in Canada.
> 
> Idk what rebates, if any are available in your State. Over here that rebate makes upgrading to Tankless comparable to a 50G PDV. Makes it an easier sell to customers so I have installed dozens of Navien's with no call backs or issues. We always provide annual maintenance too which is very easy & profitable.



where do you get 25 year warranty on naviens??? the longest I see is 15 years...and I have seen plenty of leakers after 4 to 5 years...


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...e-a/warranty&usg=AOvVaw3vobYHXdNbrFyEmEJeQ0Lx


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

Yeah Navians don't last long around here, lots of main board problems and leakers. We install Noritz, which carries 25yrs on the exchanger. But personally, I prefer Rinnai. Noritz concentric vent is stupid expensive, vs Rinnai.

I heard the board is the same for Navien and Noritz, but I don't know that to be true, and we don't see many problems with the Noritz that we sell.

In my opinion, the Rinnais are the most durable nowadays. The older "continum" series is known for leaking, and the new Rinnai 75 series seems to be very sensitive to gas pressure fluctuations. But other than that, they just seem to run.


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

I've only seen Eternal tankless leakers. Navien is all we install currently unless a specific request. They look good and the customers love the performance.


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

It's funny how a product is great in one area and crap in another. I wonder if that is just a personal bias thing, or if climates/water quality is really to blame.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

what is the going rate to install a Navien tankless heater in your area...??? I got a 75 gal power vent that the people seem to want to do a tankless unit on ........ I told them 2800 for the 75 and thinking about 3800 for the navien....


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## breplum (Mar 21, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> what is the going rate to install a Navien tankless heater in your area...??? I got a 75 gal power vent that the people seem to want to do a tankless unit on ........ I told them 2800 for the 75 and thinking about 3800 for the navien....




Of course it all depends upon conditions. Most always need to run new gas and then condensate or neutralize.
Bay Area is a high priced market, and we see easily pricing go to $5,800.
We only install Navien.
And I am factory trained to tear down Noritz,Takagi and Rinnai, but would never touch one of those units again.
The Navien onboard mini-tank can’t be beat.


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

We charge about 4200 (minimal gas work), up to about 6500 (for upsizing gas pipe if close to meter, or upsizing meter, running csst and regulators for existing appliances, etc)

I have seen estimates as high as 9000, for houses that need a ton of gas work.

Honestly, our prices are very high for tankless. If you go by the book, charging for valve kit, gas work by the foot, etc. The gas company can do it for 3/4 the cost or better.


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## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

gap1927 said:


> Rheem 50 gal power vent is $950 at Home Cheapo and a Bradford-White is around $1300 at Wolseley, WTF? Is the BW really worth that much more?? Same warranty too.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk



we have been putting in home cheapo units lately Rheem* because of the price difference same warranty too.. It wasnt wolseley but same difference the prices are the same across all supplies in our area.. wolseley, Noble, Emco, .. our little home town supplier just got bought by noble and emco owns noble so really.. Ive used marks and mckeoughs on occasion too


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

ECH said:


> We charge about 4200 (minimal gas work), up to about 6500 (for upsizing gas pipe if close to meter, or upsizing meter, running csst and regulators for existing appliances, etc)
> 
> I have seen estimates as high as 9000, for houses that need a ton of gas work.
> 
> Honestly, our prices are very high for tankless. If you go by the book, charging for valve kit, gas work by the foot, etc. The gas company can do it for 3/4 the cost or better.





You must be in the bay area or somewhere out in california... guys around here would get kicked out of the house if they quoted that kind of price......

I have heard as high as 5000 which really you cannot justify compaired to just a common 50 gallon gas heater or 75 for that matter...


I am gonna have to get a navien and throw it in my home next to my 75 gal gas heater then throw in a bypass on the wall to switch from one to another and do a little experiment....

I dont need the abuse but I need to get up to speed on some of this......





..[/SIZE]


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> You must be in the bay area or somewhere out in california... guys around here would get kicked out of the house if they quoted that kind of price......
> 
> I have heard as high as 5000 which really you cannot justify compaired to just a common 50 gallon gas heater or 75 for that matter...
> 
> ...


I don't make the prices in the book, not sure what to say. The cheapest tankless in the pricebook is about 3200, then you add the valve kit (400), then any gas work (regulator is 400), gas is 30 by the foot for csst, permit fee, carbon monoxide detectors, venting by the foot if needed, adding a gfci protected circuit if needed, gas line permits.

It adds up quick. Part of the problem is me, I don't know the business well enough to know where I can get away with hiding cost under other things.

For instance, I had an estimate the other day to convert to tankless, and the setup was just about perfect, 2psi already within 2ft of the location (so no upsizing pipe, no upsizing meter and regulating other appliances), outlet already there, outside wall right there so minimal venting.

But by the time I clicked on all the parts and pieces, the estimate was 5200 vs 3500 for a like for like 50gal tank.

It is what it is I guess. It seems to me that if the quote isn't done right, and something is missed, we loose our a$$ in a heartbeat, so the pricing reflects a cushion for all the things that invariably go wrong.

Like the inspectors failing us for silly things like we talked about in other threads.


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## gap1927 (Feb 25, 2014)

I charge about $3,500 installed for a Rinnai RL94in. As long as it's a simple through the wall vent situation. That's CDN $ too so American would be 30% less.

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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

gap1927 said:


> I charge about $3,500 installed for a Rinnai RL94in. As long as it's a simple through the wall vent situation. That's CDN $ too so American would be 30% less.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk


Even if you have to get the gas company to upsize the meter, regulate other appliances, and a reg for the tankless? Thats multiple trips right there. plus waiting for inspector to pass gas line test, etc.

The unit alone is 1300, your at 37% materials cost just for the tankless, add a whip, gas pipe, some pex and fittings, disposing of old unit, doesn't seem like much room in there for profit?


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

ECH said:


> We charge about 4200 (minimal gas work), up to about 6500 (for upsizing gas pipe if close to meter, or upsizing meter, running csst and regulators for existing appliances, etc)
> 
> I have seen estimates as high as 9000, for houses that need a ton of gas work.
> 
> Honestly, our prices are very high for tankless. If you go by the book, charging for valve kit, gas work by the foot, etc. The gas company can do it for 3/4 the cost or better.




Same, $4000 - $4800 is our price range. But it's the market that causes that.


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## gap1927 (Feb 25, 2014)

ECH said:


> Even if you have to get the gas company to upsize the meter, regulate other appliances, and a reg for the tankless? Thats multiple trips right there. plus waiting for inspector to pass gas line test, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> The unit alone is 1300, your at 37% materials cost just for the tankless, add a whip, gas pipe, some pex and fittings, disposing of old unit, doesn't seem like much room in there for profit?


All valid points! And yes I probably could charge a bit more but you have to factor in what the market will bear. We're a smaller city in the north so prices generally trend to be lower than say Toronto or Hamilton. I'm also just an OMS with minimal overhead so I usually do okay. My prices are more than fair but I still get under bid a lot by the Handy Andy guys. Also we don't have actual permits or inspections on gas installations in Ontario. There are not enough inspectors to do that. They just do a few random inspections on each contractor every three years.

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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

dhal22 said:


> Same, $4000 - $4800 is our price range. But it's the market that causes that.


Sorry, the market here ALLOWS that, not causes.


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## ECH (Jul 27, 2018)

gap1927 said:


> All valid points! And yes I probably could charge a bit more but you have to factor in what the market will bear. We're a smaller city in the north so prices generally trend to be lower than say Toronto or Hamilton. I'm also just an OMS with minimal overhead so I usually do okay. My prices are more than fair but I still get under bid a lot by the Handy Andy guys. Also we don't have actual permits or inspections on gas installations in Ontario. There are not enough inspectors to do that. They just do a few random inspections on each contractor every three years.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk


I understand.


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

Well this kind of went off topic.


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

leakfree said:


> Well this kind of went off topic.



That's the whole point of having a conversation, everyone brings in new information. Especially when we all run out of the information you wanted in the first place :biggrin:






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