# 1" PB Leak



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

*1" PB Leak *
this is the 4th leak this year on the same water line! 

This first pic is how we know there is a leak









we dug it up with a mini x







​


----------



## plumber666 (Sep 19, 2010)

As in polybutylene?


----------



## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

I think it's time for a new line.





Paul


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Here is a better pic of the Blue PB pipe,, its around lunch in this pic and i wanst allowed to turn off the water til 1:30









There is a fire hydrant close by so I cracked it on to wash some of the mud, check out all this water!


----------



## plumber666 (Sep 19, 2010)

First time I ever saw that crap was 1986. I was in rezzie plumbing at the time and had been doing house waterlines in copper. The first time we ever did a house in Poly B was the last. My boss said, " That's it! We're going full on commercial, cause I'm never putting this crap in again!" Even the fittings were that acetyl plastic crap. The first time I ever saw Kitec I remembered that day.


----------



## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Looks like that bollard (in the first pic) did it's job:yes:


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

So,,, before i post up any more pics, how would you have fixed this???

1" PB to 1" PE less than 200PSI and underground


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Shark bite


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

slickrick said:


> Shark bite


 
i was wondering who was gonna be the first to say that...:laughing:


NO SHARKBITES!!! try again


----------



## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

GREENPLUM said:


> i was wondering who was gonna be the first to say that...:laughing:
> 
> 
> NO SHARKBITES!!! try again


Male adapters and a galvanized coupling


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

The od is the same, the id is different right?


----------



## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

slickrick said:


> The od is the same, the id is different right?


PB is not CTS


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

plumbpro said:


> PB is not CTS


Na, I know that. My answer is a flare fitting. The rural water purveyors here have some type of fitting,


----------



## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

plumbpro said:


> PB is not CTS


Nevermind, the black PB is not CTS, the blue is and uses SS inserts and a compression fitting, am I right or way of base. At any rate a new line that is sleeved would be the best option in that rocky clay.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plumbpro said:


> PB is not CTS


It is CTS but it is not SDR-9 like PEX.


----------



## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

I would fix it by replacing with copper and never worry about it again. :thumbup:


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Piperat said:


> I would fix it by replacing with copper and never worry about it again. :thumbup:


 
how would you connect the copper to the PB ,,,, we cant dig up and replace the whole line


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I've done several repairs on that bluemax brand 1" polybutylene. We used bronze compression couplings. I forget the name but they are what the municipal water providers use to connect the 1" polyethylene to the water meters. BTW, I'm almost positive that the bluemax polybutylene is IPS not CTS so sharkbites are a no go. The bronze compression couplings are very much like the older mueler couplings except they also have a secondary clamp on each and that acts as a thrust block. I'll see if I can dig up a link......


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Here we go.

Legend valve part no: 313-245 
model #: T-4321

http://www.legendvalve.com/products/LT_WSF_WEB.pdf


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

This guy right here


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Protech said:


> Here we go.
> 
> Legend valve part no: 313-245
> model #: T-4321
> ...


That is what these yahoo's here use.


----------



## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Pull a new copper line without digging up the street with a Grice industries replacement tool. Works for replacing plastic, lead or galvanized. Connect the 2 with PDF LINK http://www.fordmeterbox.com/PDF/Submittals/c46xx.pdf


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Whoops! they had some tees cut in right in the middle. Doh! :laughing:


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Protech said:


> Whoops! they had some tees cut in right in the middle. Doh! :laughing:


That would be a terrible thing to discover half way through the pull...


----------



## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

Protech said:


> This guy right here


That's the doohicky that I was taking about, the have a rubber gasket and you use an insert on plastic pipe


----------



## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

True thats possible but not common in my parts for the service. :laughing: If so you get to double your fun and price by replacing that one too. :thumbup:


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

So what did the great GREENPLUM use?


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

FYI this DOES work....pex is white,,,PB is Blue both are 1" and work in a SB


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I want my prize then.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

That doesn't look like polybutylene. It's SDR 9 which makes me think it's poly ethylene. How can you be sure it's PB? It didn't think they made PB in 1" CTS SDR9..........


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I'm learning all kinds of new crap today. I have never seen any PB that was CTS. And it was all gray. That photo just looks like blue pex that we have on the shelf here.

Gees, when am I gonna quit gettin' surprised?


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Another qusetion: If you used a 1" SB fitting to do the repair, why is it not in the ground?


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Huh? ALL 1/2" and 3/4" polybutylene is CTS SDR11




plbgbiz said:


> I'm learning all kinds of new crap today. * I have never seen any PB that was CTS*. And it was all gray. That photo just looks like blue pex that we have on the shelf here.
> 
> Gees, when am I gonna quit gettin' surprised?


----------



## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

Protech said:


> Huh? ALL 1/2" and 3/4" polybutylene is CTS SDR11


What is the black or grey pipe on a roll then?


----------



## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

The black is not cts and uses barbed fittings and hose clamps


----------



## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

The grey is the garbage they used to put in trailers


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

The black "poly" you are talking about is IPS polyethylene NOT polybutylene.



plumbpro said:


> What is the black or grey pipe on a roll then?


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Protech...It was all the same o.d. as copper but wasn't the i.d.different? I know Pex has a thicker wall than PB so which one is CTS?

Maybe calling it CTS just refers to the o.d. in which case all thre would be CTS.


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Greenplum, are you going to sleep OK knowing that the SB's are in the ground expanding and contracting? I would have got some of the others from the water guys.


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

plumbpro said:


> The grey is the garbage they used to put in trailers


The gray was also the garbage they put in 10 million regular houses.


----------



## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

Protech said:


> The black "poly" you are talking about is IPS polyethylene NOT polybutylene.


Thanks, I get it now


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Protech said:


> That doesn't look like polybutylene. It's SDR 9 which makes me think it's poly ethylene. How can you be sure it's PB? It didn't think they made PB in 1" CTS SDR9..........


No its PB


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

All 3.

The OD is CTS. The ID is determined by the SDR.

SDR = Standard Dimension Ratio
SDR is the ratio of wall thickness to diameter. The lower the number, the thicker the wall.

PB is SDR 11
PEX is SDR 9
I don't think copper has an SDR. I think copper has a schedule of wall thicknesses based on what kind you order (K,L,M,DWV etc)



plbgbiz said:


> Protech...It was all the same o.d. as copper but wasn't the i.d.different? I know Pex has a thicker wall than PB *so which one is CTS?*
> 
> Maybe calling it CTS just refers to the o.d. in which case all thre would be CTS.


----------



## mssp (Dec 15, 2009)

plbgbiz said:


> Protech...It was all the same o.d. as copper but wasn't the i.d.different? I know Pex has a thicker wall than PB so which one is CTS?
> 
> Maybe calling it CTS just refers to the o.d. in which case all thre would be CTS.


 All CTS pipe is referred to as OD


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Black polyethylene also comes in thin wall CTS sizes. Sold in 100' and 500' rolls here.

Can be installed with the compression couplings shown in the previous photos.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

They must have made it is different sizes then? Down here it's all been IPS. I've done several leaks in the strawberry square mobile home park in Plant City, Fl



GREENPLUM said:


> No its PB


----------



## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Holy crap!!! It's orangeburg!!! :laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

yep , i used sharkbites and mighty putty
​


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

OD is just a measurement. ALL pipes have an OD. Both IPS and CTS have an OD. There is no such thing as an "OD" sizing system.

OD is simply "outer diameter". It's a measurement, not a sizing system.



mssp said:


> All CTS pipe is referred to as OD


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

:thumbsup:mighty putty is great


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

have at it!


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

and No slick ,,, you loose :laughing:


----------



## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

Ah I see you used a Flo-Control brand fitting


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Finished! now i wait about 30-40 days to get paid


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

mssp said:


> All CTS pipe is referred to as OD


If you are in refrigeration. The copper we use is nominal size.


----------



## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

FINISHED?:whistling2: Around here when we're finished the mud is gone and the asphalt replaced. (Also the pipe is replaced with copper, especially after 4 leaks.) It may not last 30 - 45 days until you get paid.  What if it breaks again 6 inches from your repair? They will swear its your problem. Good Luck

Ps Granular backfill also


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Piperat said:


> FINISHED?:whistling2: Around here when we're finished the mud is gone and the asphalt replaced. (Also the pipe is replaced with copper, especially after 4 leaks.) It may not last 30 - 45 days until you get paid.  What if it breaks again 6 inches from your repair? They will swear its your problem. Good Luck
> 
> Ps Granular backfill also


 
welp, thats gonna be a difference between me and you. Its clean enuff, i am not a street sweeper company, they alrdy have one of those.

copper...meh

if it breaks in or after the flo fitting then they hafta pay for it,,,:thumbsup:
its right in the contract


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It looks like I was mistaken. I just pulled 1 of the invoices and it was in fact CTS size.

My bad. Same coupling though, just CTS instead of IPS.


----------



## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

GREENPLUM said:


> welp, thats gonna be a difference between me and you. Its clean enuff, i am not a street sweeper company, they alrdy have one of those.
> 
> copper...meh
> 
> ...


 Thats cool GP I agree to disagree. Most of these situations I have ran into with the unknowns of an underground leak like this are handled T&M with the property managers. Most want their problem fixed and the job handled 100% with no mess when we are done. Yours may want to handle in house but I would still cleanup better than that, but thats me. First impressions are everything when the owners show up to have a look. After 4 leaks though you have to offer a solution at some point. JMHO Your mileage may vary


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Piperat said:


> Thats cool GP I agree to disagree. Most of these situations I have ran into with the unknowns of an underground leak like this are handled T&M with the property managers. Most want their problem fixed and the job handled 100% with no mess when we are done. Yours may want to handle in house but I would still cleanup better than that, but thats me. First impressions are everything when the owners show up to have a look. After 4 leaks though you have to offer a solution at some point. JMHO Your mileage may vary


 
Ohhh , i have offered many different solutions to the situation BUT they CHOOSE which one they are going to pay for....

I only DO what I am PAID for.

With this Im sure we both agree:thumbsup:


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

This is a section of 1 1/2" PB from the last leak


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

the other side


----------



## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

GREENPLUM said:


> Ohhh , i have offered many different solutions to the situation BUT they CHOOSE which one they are going to pay for....
> 
> I only DO what I am PAID for.
> 
> With this Im sure we both agree:thumbsup:


Oh I do agree with that one for sure. :yes: A fool and his money are soon parted even if a little at a time. :laughing: What makes them think the 4th time is the last time. :laughing::laughing::laughing: I betcha they will end up paying triple by the time they realize the inevitable that they WILL have to replace the line. All you can do is offer a professional solution, if they choose cheap they are just prolonging the agony. Probably be better for you in the long run moneywise. :thumbsup:


----------



## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Transition over to pex


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

mpsllc said:


> Transition over to pex


 
sorry but i didnt mean to thank you for this post :whistling2:


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

mpsllc said:


> Transition over to pex


 


*Introduction Requested* 
An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/.

The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession)

Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field.

This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is.

We look forward to your valuable input.
__________________


----------



## Nevada Plumber (Jan 3, 2009)

I don't like those plastic couplings that you used. I would have just used a 1" PEX x poly coupling with a couple of crimp rings if it was my job.


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Nevada Plumber said:


> I don't like those plastic couplings that you used. I would have just used a 1" PEX x poly coupling with a couple of crimp rings if it was my job.


 
i dont put crimp fittings underground :thumbsup:


----------



## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

Those plastic couplings ar good enough for a line that needs to be replaced anyway


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

So you trust a compression joint more than a crimp joint?? :blink:

I didn't know they made a 1" poly by pex transition coupling. Where does one procure one of those??



GREENPLUM said:


> i dont put crimp fittings underground :thumbsup:


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Protech said:


> So you trust a compression joint more than a crimp joint?? :blink:
> 
> I didn't know they made a 1" poly by pex transition coupling. Where does one procure one of those??


you're assuming here

depends on several factors with the compress vs crimp

I have had positive results with both styles of connecting

Ill assume there is more compression fittings underground than crimp pex fittings :blink:


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Greenplum, if cust. does not want to repl. whole line, you did the right thing. Install the dresser couplings and since you've explained line really should be replaced, they can't holler at you when and if there is another break. Of course I write on my invoice in those situations "customer opted not to replace line at this time." Or words to that effect. They know the risks with only a repair and customer is assuming that risk.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

95% of the calls that come into my office for "broken water lines" are plastic water services.



Now why is that **** being installed? 


Oh, that's right, job security. 


I've got around 40 3/4" K water services that were properly backfilled with grillage/compacting subgrade that will be in perfect working condition long after I'm dead, my body is decomposing with my eyes and brain sunk deep into my skull oozing as a fluid from the base, creating a great tasting liquid to the earthworms and other underground insects that visit my final resting spot.


----------



## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> 95% of the calls that come into my office for "broken water lines" are plastic water services.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well that certainly is descripitve. But, good for you nobody is ever hurt with quality work.


----------



## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> 95% of the calls that come into my office for "broken water lines" are plastic water services.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just watched *Dawn of the Living Dead*, so that condition might just be temporary.


----------



## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> 95% of the calls that come into my office for "broken water lines" are plastic water services.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Well then , the last 40 PVC water lines i installed were "properly backfilled with grillage/compacting subgrade that will be in perfect working condition long after I'm dead"

40 in the scheme of things isn't very many, and not enuff to predict the future

This thread has nothing to do with job security, it just is what it is. 

This threads purpose was to educate each other and Im sure it did. I was lookin for other methods you guys might be practicing. That was it. 

I got:
Sharkbites
Ford Coupling
Crimp it
and replace entire line with K copper even though I posted that I wasnt going to be able to replace the whole line ( just patch it) 

+sweep up and install asphalt


----------



## gusty60 (Oct 21, 2008)

I would have used Mighty Putty. Definitely Mighty Putty.


----------



## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

:thumbsup:


----------



## mssp (Dec 15, 2009)

Protech said:


> OD is just a measurement. ALL pipes have an OD. Both IPS and CTS have an OD. There is no such thing as an "OD" sizing system.
> 
> OD is simply "outer diameter". It's a measurement, not a sizing system.


.Protech what I was trying to say is that CTS, the od is a constant. Regardles of grade of pipe


----------



## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

I'm just going to throw this out there.... but, I have heard Schwinn makes a pretty versatile repair clamp......


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Airgap said:


> I'm just going to throw this out there.... but, I have heard Schwinn makes a pretty versatile repair clamp......


Have you got a picture of it? :laughing:


----------



## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Have you got a picture of it? :laughing:


Well, as a matter of fact I do.....:thumbsup:


----------



## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

Airgap said:


> Well, as a matter of fact I do.....:thumbsup:
> 
> View attachment 7374


 That is an awesome clamp, it even has fingers grip on it, so you can hold it tight, while tightening hose clamp:thumbsup:.


----------



## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Don The Plumber said:


> That is an awesome clamp, it even has fingers grip on it, so you can hold it tight, while tightening hose clamp:thumbsup:.


Good thinking, brother. Schwinn was going after the DIY market, where they don't bother with a wrench and a holdback. All you need is a screwdriver.


----------

