# california.....when is enough enough? now 1.28 gpf



## Hillside

so has any fellow californians heard about this new code being enforced? WTF :no: my sales guy at my supply house said a guy that pulled a permit for a toilet had to take out the 1.6 and install a 1.28 to pass inspection, now we gotta fush 3 times instead of twice 

http://www.cbia.org/go/cbia/california-builder-magazine/current-issue/commission-adopts-standards/


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## plbgbiz

I think it's the same in Texas as well.


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## Epox

I haven't heard of the 1.28 though it doesn't surprise me. Engineering is barely catching up to the 1.6's. :no: Heck just cement the flange off and issue 5 gallon buckets.:furious:


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## woberkrom

HillsidePlumbco said:


> so has any fellow californians heard about this new code being enforced? WTF :no: my sales guy at my supply house said a guy that pulled a permit for a toilet had to take out the 1.6 and install a 1.28 to pass inspection, now we gotta fush 3 times instead of twice
> 
> http://www.cbia.org/go/cbia/california-builder-magazine/current-issue/commission-adopts-standards/


I'm in MO, and I heard the make you update the toilet when you sell, out there in Cali.



--Will

http://www.watersmartinnovations.co...Effective Time of Sale Toilet Replacement.pdf


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## plumb4fun

Its taken them 25 or 30 years to get the 1.6's to flush right! Now at 1.2 gpf the experimental stage starts all over again!:furious::blink:


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## Epox

If memory serves me right the government mandated 1.6's in 94. If I'm wrong please let me know.


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## Redwood

Actually the 1.28 GPF toilets have been out and about for a while.
Many of the toilets in the Toto line have been switched over to 1.28 GPF and they actually flush very well.

The requirement now is that they meet the standards for EPA WaterSense Certification and that is a lot different than when the 1.6 GPF toilets initially came out.

http://www.epa.gov/WaterSense/docs/ws_het508.pdf

The biggest difference is that WaterSense Certification has minimum performance standards that actually satisfy over 99% of the population.

Now this is getting a bit scary...
http://stealthtoilets.com/pages/whatis.html


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## Protech

I have never seen a 1.28 that flushes well. They all seem to leave the bowl with some poo left in it.


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## SewerRatz

Redwood, I made a post last year about the Stealth water closets. They been pushing the ultra low flow design for a while now. I can not see how a sewer will not clog with so little water carrying the waste. I already see many clogged sewers due to the new and improved toilet papers and 1.6 GPF water closets.

I always said the issues is pipe size. Here we have 4" pipe underground and with the old 3 GPF water closets it wetted 1/3rd of the pipe and carried the waste out with no issues. The 1.6 GPF water closets wet about 1/8th of the pipe and the waste falls out quicker causing blockages. This problem is worse with the "power flush" units cause the flush is stretched out longer to clean to bowl. The newer water closets like the Kohler Class 5 flush system or any with the extra large flush valve has a nice short abrupt flush which puts a larger slug of water in the line to carry the was farther down the line. 

The only way I can see the Stealth water closets work if they where the the very last fixture to tie into the system in front of all the other fixtures. This way all the other fixtures (kitchen, wash, lave , tub) can help wash the waste down the line. Or have the Stealth water closet dump directly into an ejector pit.


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## plbgbiz

Redwood said:


> ...Now this is getting a bit scary...
> http://stealthtoilets.com/pages/whatis.html


This is a great day to start a drain maintenance business. :yes:


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## plbgbiz

SewerRatz said:


> ...I always said the issues is pipe size. Here we have 4" pipe underground and with the old 3 GPF water closets it wetted 1/3rd of the pipe and carried the waste out with no issues. The 1.6 GPF water closets wet about 1/8th of the pipe and the waste falls out quicker causing blockages. This problem is worse with the "power flush" units cause the flush is stretched out longer to clean to bowl. The newer water closets like the Kohler Class 5 flush system or any with the extra large flush valve has a nice short abrupt flush which puts a larger slug of water in the line to carry the was farther down the line. ...


Right on track SR...

Buoyancy is lost with too large of pipe compared to water volume. We have many older homes with 6" clay building sewers. H.E.T. toilets do have their merits in conservation but will likely create problems as well.


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## OldSchool

When they first came out with the 1.6 the city here decided to pay to have people change their toilets..... Well they took a certian part of the town and started changing out the toilets .... half way through the project they had to stop because the city main sewer lines started to get blocked because there wasn't enough water to push everything down the street....

They had to go back and change the toilets to the original....

So reducing the amount of water on the toilets are causing problems for both the city and the home owners


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## Tommy plumber

Here we go again. :whistling2:

No doubt some college-educated guy is telling the government that 1.28 gpf is the way to go. I wonder if the government officials are bright enough to at least interview a licensed plumbing contractor or two before making these kinds of decisions.


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## RealLivePlumber

Tommy plumber said:


> Here we go again. :whistling2:
> 
> No doubt some college-educated guy is telling the government that 1.28 gpf is the way to go. I wonder if the government officials are bright enough to at least interview a licensed plumbing contractor or two before making these kinds of decisions.


Aint some college educated guy. its some treehugger.:yes:


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## grandpa

They started phasing in 1.28 gpf in CA a couple of years ago. As of Jan1, 2014, 100% of toilets sold in CA must be 1/28.

It can be accomplished as a single flush type, at 1.28, or dual flush such that the average of "x" many #1's and "y" many #2's, average out to 1.28

Our lead free law is now Federal, and you can bet your bibby the 1.28 law will soon be Federal as well!


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## Plumbus

Even if the 1.28 wc flushes well, their use as well as that of 1.6 wc's, are causing line carry issues. An unintended circumstance is the development of dry drain syndrome, which promises to be a boon to the drain cleaning industry across the nation. The phenomena is even encouraging inventive souls to concoct a remedy.
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s2746578.htm

As SewerRatz suggested, pipeline size is where the problem lies. Engineering studies and code making bodies are looking into different formulas for revising waste pipe sizing to counter this dangerous unintended circumstance of well meaning water conservation efforts. What looked like low hanging fruit turned out to be bittersweet.


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## RealLivePlumber

The next town over installed city sewer town wide a couple of years ago. 

Eliminated most of the septic tanks. There are still a few holdouts, i assume. They made it cost much more in connection fees the longer you wait. 

Anyway, the township required 6" sewers. :laughing: Demanded it. 

They didn't care what the codebook said, or the plumbers said. 

YOU WILL INSTALL A 6" SEWER, FROM THE 2 WAY TEE WE WILL GIVE YOU IN THE FRONT OF THE PROPERTY, UP TO THE CONNECTION OF THE BUILDING DRAIN. 

That freakin engineer was brilliant. :yes:

(most of them actually needed a 3", but hey, bigger is better)


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## OldSchool

Soon there will be no water toilets and you will be carrying your waste to the road like the rest of the garbage.


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## Redwood

Protech said:


> I have never seen a 1.28 that flushes well. They all seem to leave the bowl with some poo left in it.


I guess you haven't installed any Toto Drake II's yet...:whistling2:

Actually when the 1.6 GPF toilets first came out many of them MaP tested in the 150 grams per flush range, and the worst one tested was the Komet Deco which I believe was less than 100 gmpf, which IMHO wasn't even suitable as a urinal in a ladies room...

The threshold for WaterSense Certification has a minimum flushing ability of 350 grams per flush so yes they are a lot better than what we were given at the 1.6 mandate. 

Yes, older lines that leak are going to have problems...

But hey isn't that good for business?

I see money in the jetting and line replacement....:thumbup:


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## ap plumbing

OldSchool said:


> Soon there will be no water toilets and you will be carrying your waste to the road like the rest of the garbage.


 so i better by a life supply of glad bags......:laughing:


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## Bill

Cant wait to see the .879 GPF toilets!


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## OldSchool

ap plumbing said:


> so i better by a life supply of glad bags......:laughing:


and your wife will say honey have you brought the crap to the road the honeywagon is coming


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## Tommy plumber

RealLivePlumber said:


> The next town over installed city sewer town wide a couple of years ago.
> 
> Eliminated most of the septic tanks. There are still a few holdouts, i assume. They made it cost much more in connection fees the longer you wait.
> 
> Anyway, the township required 6" sewers. :laughing: Demanded it.
> 
> They didn't care what the codebook said, or the plumbers said.
> 
> YOU WILL INSTALL A 6" SEWER, FROM THE 2 WAY TEE WE WILL GIVE YOU IN THE FRONT OF THE PROPERTY, UP TO THE CONNECTION OF THE BUILDING DRAIN.
> 
> That freakin engineer was brilliant. :yes:
> 
> (most of them actually needed a 3", but hey, bigger is better)


 



That's funny. College educated idiots, :laughing: 'ordering' 6" sewers.

Here, it's not optional to tie-in to newly installed city sewers, it's mandatory. The towns want to re-coup their money.


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## JK949

Redwood said:


> I guess you haven't installed any Toto Drake II's yet...:whistling2:


I have installed Ultramax II and the Supreme II actually flushes better than the 1.6 original. The ADA is a great option for banjo counter top installs.


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## tungsten plumb

I don't see why there's so many complaints sounds like more money to me :yes:


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## UnclogNH

1.28 GPF :thumbup: I just found my pot of brown Gold at the other end of the rainbow California. UnclogNH said I got's to move over there So I pack up my drain equipment and moved to Beverly Hills that is.


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## WestCoastPlumber

HillsidePlumbco said:


> so has any fellow californians heard about this new code being enforced? WTF :no: my sales guy at my supply house said a guy that pulled a permit for a toilet had to take out the 1.6 and install a 1.28 to pass inspection, now we gotta fush 3 times instead of twice
> 
> http://www.cbia.org/go/cbia/california-builder-magazine/current-issue/commission-adopts-standards/


 
1.28 was inacted jan 1st. All last year everyone was talking about it. Kohler has multiple toilets with flushvalves that can be adjusted from 1.6 to 1.2.


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## pauliplumber

I've put in several 1.28 AS Cadet 3's, they flush well. Put in an adjustable fluidmaster 3'' flapper and with a little more water they have an outstanding flush and good bowl wash.


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## plumber Ty

pauliplumber said:


> I've put in several 1.28 AS Cadet 3's, they flush well. Put in an adjustable fluidmaster 3'' flapper and with a little more water they have an outstanding flush and good bowl wash.


I think that's rediculous the water in the 3 gal flush helped keep the drains cleared. My company has had more drain cleaning calls when they installed the 1.6 right heights then ever


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## plumbpro

SewerRatz said:


> Redwood, I made a post last year about the Stealth water closets. They been pushing the ultra low flow design for a while now. I can not see how a sewer will not clog with so little water carrying the waste. I already see many clogged sewers due to the new and improved toilet papers and 1.6 GPF water closets.
> 
> I always said the issues is pipe size. Here we have 4" pipe underground and with the old 3 GPF water closets it wetted 1/3rd of the pipe and carried the waste out with no issues. The 1.6 GPF water closets wet about 1/8th of the pipe and the waste falls out quicker causing blockages. This problem is worse with the "power flush" units cause the flush is stretched out longer to clean to bowl. The newer water closets like the Kohler Class 5 flush system or any with the extra large flush valve has a nice short abrupt flush which puts a larger slug of water in the line to carry the was farther down the line.
> 
> The only way I can see the Stealth water closets work if they where the the very last fixture to tie into the system in front of all the other fixtures. This way all the other fixtures (kitchen, wash, lave , tub) can help wash the waste down the line. Or have the Stealth water closet dump directly into an ejector pit.


Most places here we are able to use 3" instead of 4" to help carry the waste of water closets. I'd have to go get my code book, but I believe you can put 24 DFU through 3" at 1/8"/ft, more at a 1/4"/ft. There are still a few municipalities that will only allow 2 wc on a 3". The 1.28 god have just started to be popular here and 4" will cause problems.


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## plumbpro

plumber Ty said:


> I think that's rediculous the water in the 3 gal flush helped keep the drains cleared. My company has had more drain cleaning calls when they installed the 1.6 right heights then ever


This statement makes no sense.


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## tungsten plumb

plumbpro said:


> This statement makes no sense.


I with you on that one I'm confused:blink:


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## socalplmr1

tungsten plumb said:


> I with you on that one I'm confused:blink:


 
yeah...kinda confusing....somehow trying to state that 3 gal toilets flush better than the 1.6....or something like that


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## AlbacoreShuffle

Who needs water ?


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## damnplumber

*Gov. Arnold*

The last gov passed a law called 20 by 2020. Californis must reduce water usage 20% by the year 2020. This is part of that. I have been selling and installing the Stealth toilets at .8gpf We're on septic here in Joshua Tree Ca so no sewer washing issues here.


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## deerslayer

damnplumber said:


> The last gov passed a law called 20 by 2020. Californis must reduce water usage 20% by the year 2020. This is part of that. I have been selling and installing the Stealth toilets at .8gpf We're on septic here in Joshua Tree Ca so no sewer washing issues here.


Is your septic directly under your toilet? Otherwise if it's like usual it is in the yard and a private sewer conveys the waste from your building sewer to septic system? Hence the sewerwill still require being washed and .8gpf doesn't do that well!


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## ChrisConnor

I remember in '93 being contracted with a grocery store chain to change out all the new toilets to 1.6 lgf.


That was a very busy year for stoppages at those stores.

At least with 2" flush valves you could just put on a 3.5gpf flapper and make it work well. The three inch flappers and newer tower type flush valves don't have that luxury. Well, you can plug the side hole on the three inch flappers if you wanted to..... not that I do that to make a great flushing toilet with adequate drain line carry or anything like that.


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## Phat Cat

plumbpro said:


> This statement makes no sense.


Seemed to me that he was referring to drain carry, not trapways. Drain carry issues are already being reported in commercial buildings and studies are underway with talk of reducing pipe sizing down to 3".

IMO, Gov't should stay out of it. If they want to stick their noses into it, get out the residential arena and concentrate on areas where real water conservation can be found. Residential use is a drop in the bucket.

Same with efficiency . . . if you read the new standards for water heaters, you will see why we will all be paying out the wazoo for heating water. There is NO savings to the consumer. Feel good fluff that amounts to nothing. Typical gov't at work.


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## deerslayer

I am waiting for the gray water recycle systems in commercial buildings!
For instance why not just put dividers between the lavs in the mens room let us piss in the sink and when we wash our hands it will flush it away! LOL


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## socalplmr1

deerslayer said:


> For instance why not just put dividers between the lavs in the mens room let us piss in the sink and when we wash our hands it will flush it away! LOL


Great idea:laughing:


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## WaddellPlumber

HillsidePlumbco said:


> so has any fellow californians heard about this new code being enforced? WTF :no: my sales guy at my supply house said a guy that pulled a permit for a toilet had to take out the 1.6 and install a 1.28 to pass inspection, now we gotta fush 3 times instead of twice
> 
> http://www.cbia.org/go/cbia/california-builder-magazine/current-issue/commission-adopts-standards/


I'm no longer a Californian but that code has been coming for quite a while and I believe it becomes national in a few years. I have a Gerber 1.28 and it flushes as well as an old 3.5. Cleans the bowl well and best of all it doesn't even slow down. It's in a hall bathroom that everyone uses and it's ADA height. I have two other Gerber 1.6's and they do well also. Have you heard of the Niagara Stealth .8gpf? I'm just starting to check these out. Jerry Brown will mandate these next!


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## azmike

Its real funny on how toilets are being shrunk! When you look at a 4" cast iron drain line that has 1/2" buggers growing on the inside you know right there that a 3 gal toilet is barley working none the less a toilet with less gallonage!


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## pilot light

HillsidePlumbco said:


> so has any fellow californians heard about this new code being enforced? WTF :no: my sales guy at my supply house said a guy that pulled a permit for a toilet had to take out the 1.6 and install a 1.28 to pass inspection, now we gotta fush 3 times instead of twice
> 
> http://www.cbia.org/go/cbia/california-builder-magazine/current-issue/commission-adopts-standards/


 Its the same here! I think my morning ritual is bigger than 1.28, Its bigger than 1.6.... ! The scouring action on my 1.6 is nil, 1.28 must be less than nil! These low flow options all come down to the concept of the flush clearing the bowl and also scouring the side and cleaning! I dont think this actually happens so they are a health threat too!


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## Gettinit

Anyone ever install an incinerating toilet? Think this may become the next big thing in California.


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## Gettinit

As far as commercial goes I have had good results with Kohler and Toto bowls with a Toto 1.28 flushvalve. The correct flush valve is the important part. All of this brought to you by Wally World.


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## pilot light

Gettinit said:


> Anyone ever install an incinerating toilet? Think this may become the next big thing in California.


 Yes I have been working on said prototype name classified!:laughing:


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## Gettinit

pilot light said:


> Yes I have been working on said prototype name classified!:laughing:


You laugh, but I wonder how many hippies use one?


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## pilot light

Gettinit said:


> You laugh, but I wonder how many hippies use one?


 Cant find a way! Flame Impingement! lol!:laughing:


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## brians plumbing

I think this is a real problem the low flush volume does not clean the bowl properly


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## east-indy

WaddellPlumber said:


> I'm no longer a Californian but that code has been coming for quite a while and I believe it becomes national in a few years. I have a Gerber 1.28 and it flushes as well as an old 3.5. Cleans the bowl well and best of all it doesn't even slow down. It's in a hall bathroom that everyone uses and it's ADA height. I have two other Gerber 1.6's and they do well also. Have you heard of the Niagara Stealth .8gpf? I'm just starting to check these out. Jerry Brown will mandate these next!


It's made it's way to Indianapolis. I bid on a small job swappen stools and urinals to the new 1.28 flow and pint respectively. If the rest rooms were plumbed correctly (and I'm sure they were) most of the stools should be on 4" and all urinals are on 2". The conditions for the bid were ridiculous.

I had to include a "not responsible for clog" clause in the estimate.:thumbsup:

Hope to get the job and make money on drain cleans too!:yes:


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## pilot light

brians plumbing said:


> I think this is a real problem the low flush volume does not clean the bowl properly


 Amen!


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## Pinnacle

Toto 4.8 LPF which is 1.28 gpf flushes amazing!


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## pilot light

Pinnacle said:


> Toto 4.8 LPF which is 1.28 gpf flushes amazing!


 Do you own one ?


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## Gettinit

I work with many of the Toto valves, they are pretty good. You can turn up the flag volume a little too.


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## sierra2000

brians plumbing said:


> I think this is a real problem the low flush volume does not clean the bowl properly


Not only the bowl but the sewer washing is an issue too. I installed a Gerber Viper toilet about 11months ago which flushes great. I get a call from the homeowner that the shower is slow sometimes and toilet gurgles sometimes. I pull the toilet and run my camera down the line. I was in disbelief at all the turds I saw just sitting in the line. I mean the whole line had big turds just looking back at my camera. I never did find any tree roots or blockage, just turds everywhere. Could only associate it to the low flow toilet, and this is 1.6 gallons. 
About five feet of the drain was ABS and the rest was old cast iron. The ABS had no turds in it, just the cast iron. Guess the rough surface of the cast and lack of enough water is the real problem.
After pushing my camera through that crap i had to wash my camera out with simple green because the smell got so bad in the back of my truck after a few days.


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## Pinnacle

pilot light said:


> Do you own one ?


You've asked me that already how many times do I have to tell you yes lol toto drake


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## plbgbiz

sierra2000 said:


> Not only the bowl but the sewer washing is an issue too. I installed a Gerber Viper toilet about 11months ago which flushes great. I get a call from the homeowner that the shower is slow sometimes and toilet gurgles sometimes. I pull the toilet and run my camera down the line. I was in disbelief at all the turds I saw just sitting in the line. I mean the whole line had big turds just looking back at my camera. I never did find any tree roots or blockage, just turds everywhere. Could only associate it to the low flow toilet, and this is 1.6 gallons.
> About five feet of the drain was ABS and the rest was old cast iron. The ABS had no turds in it, just the cast iron. Guess the rough surface of the cast and lack of enough water is the real problem.
> After pushing my camera through that crap i had to wash my camera out with simple green because the smell got so bad in the back of my truck after a few days.


You have struck the nail on the head. It is all about line carry. The ability for any of the greatest toilets on Earth the evacuate waste and cleanse the bowl with an ever decreasing amount of water is irrelevant. It takes a certain amount of water to maintain buoyancy in the building drain and building sewer. 

According to Kohler, the ASTM standard they have to meet is 40' of line carry. How many homes and businesses have toilets within 40' of the city main.

Water saving mandates for toilets are the best thing that has happened to the service plumbing industry since they started installing Orangeburg electrical conduit for sewers. :yes:


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## retired rooter

Tommy plumber said:


> Here we go again. :whistling2:
> 
> No doubt some college-educated guy is telling the government that 1.28 gpf is the way to go. I wonder if the government officials are bright enough to at least interview a licensed plumbing contractor or two before making these kinds of decisions.


 wonder if its MR AL GORE???


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## jc-htownplumber

Not here in Houston 1.6 are still acceptable but toto by far I believe have the best flush for a 1.28 then kohler with American standard imo


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## jc-htownplumber

SewerRatz said:


> Redwood, I made a post last year about the Stealth water closets. They been pushing the ultra low flow design for a while now. I can not see how a sewer will not clog with so little water carrying the waste. I already see many clogged sewers due to the new and improved toilet papers and 1.6 GPF water closets.
> 
> I always said the issues is pipe size. Here we have 4" pipe underground and with the old 3 GPF water closets it wetted 1/3rd of the pipe and carried the waste out with no issues. The 1.6 GPF water closets wet about 1/8th of the pipe and the waste falls out quicker causing blockages. This problem is worse with the "power flush" units cause the flush is stretched out longer to clean to bowl. The newer water closets like the Kohler Class 5 flush system or any with the extra large flush valve has a nice short abrupt flush which puts a larger slug of water in the line to carry the was farther down the line.
> 
> The only way I can see the Stealth water closets work if they where the the very last fixture to tie into the system in front of all the other fixtures. This way all the other fixtures (kitchen, wash, lave , tub) can help wash the waste down the line. Or have the Stealth water closet dump directly into an ejector pit.


I posted something similar a while back as well regarding this issue my question was how long till we start using 2" lines for wc or at least redesigns the bathrooms to make the wc first then lavs and tub to have additional water to help carry the solids


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## BigDave

"grey water" is COMING FOR EVERYONE! bowwwwahhhhhahahaha!


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## Widdershins

BigDave said:


> "grey water" is COMING FOR EVERYONE! bowwwwahhhhhahahaha!


I've already installed a couple of grey water systems.

They work great for flushing toilets once you get the chlorinator properly dialed in.


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## Shall not

Gettinit said:


> Anyone ever install an incinerating toilet? Think this may become the next big thing in California.


Not with the emissions laws


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## Will

Screw it. Install Mansfield with the 3.5 gpf tower.


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## plbgbiz

Shall not said:


> Not with the emissions laws


An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/.

The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession)

Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field.

This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is.

We look forward to your valuable input.


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