# The nerve of some people



## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

I get a call from a guy i did work for few months ago. Hes wanting me to bring some samples of sinks and faucets because they are redoing the kitchen. I tell him there is a local supplier that will show him products and some are working models. I then say you can let me know and il price it for ya. Well I get a call this am from my wife wanting to know why I let a customer buy some fixtures on our account. I tell her i didnt ok any thing to be bought on our account. She tells me hes trying to buy 4,000.00 worth of plumbing on our account. i told her stop him..i dont know this guy or even remember him well. 

So i get pissed off as im working and call the supplier. I asked if the restrictions i put on the account still there? They say yes,, PO, ID, not cash sales, and the list of people ok to buy. I then asked why is the store in another part of town selling to this guy on my account. They very quickly transfered me to the manager and we got to the bottom of this. Turns out since he wasnt on the list to buy they sold it to him with my discount!!:furious: I told him do not ever do that again!!! Shoot i went in to get a can of pipe dope and they wouldnt sell it to me because i said no cash sales. :blink:

anyone ever have a customer try this???


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

Not sure if that is nerve on the part of the customer, or the rep...

That is plain ridiculous. Find another supplier.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Yes, happened to me a couple of times with one supplier. Both times I knew the customer, but I have a no charge policy unless I authorize it personally which I have never done. 

They really pissed me off when they let a customer charge my account a week after I went ballistic on them for doing it the first time. While I still have my account I don't call them for product. 

You got to keep a close eye on your money.


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## JPL (Feb 8, 2013)

He's probably try to return something and ding you a restock fee!


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## JoshJ (May 10, 2012)

victoryplbaz said:


> turns out since he wasnt on the list to buy they sold it to him with my discount!!:furious: I told him do not ever do that again!!! Shoot i went in to get a can of pipe dope and they wouldnt sell it to me because i said no cash sales. :blink:
> 
> anyone ever have a customer try this???


I would be informing them that they better dig real deep to make it up to me. And regardless of what they could come up with, I don't know if I would ever use them again. I would make sure they knew that, too.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

That's just insane... I've never heard of such a thing.


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## Relic (Sep 30, 2012)

Wow that pissed me off just reading about it here. I would definitely be looking for someone's head on the chopping block for this.


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## cincy plumber (Jun 14, 2009)

Relic said:


> Wow that pissed me off just reading about it here. I would definitely be looking for someone's head on the chopping block for this.


YES! I had them ask me where do you get your parts and I tell them Lowes
my supplier is good to me for 30 yrs and I will not let the HO know!:furious:
Who I go to!


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

Honestly it does little personal good to quit them. Like someone said the most that they could cost you is a restock charge and I'm sure you could get that worked out.

The reason that it chaps everyone who reads this is that your supplier did a disservice to the entire trade more than to you as a business owner. 

So quit them on principle.


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

Im not dropping them over this. They have been very good to me except for this and it was one of their other stores. I just cant belive someone would have the balls to do that and think they could get away with it.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

I've had it happen many times. Every time, I get a call from the counter guy asking if its okay to charge stuff on my account. I once had a GC try it. It was for a whirlpool tub and some other high end stuff like 7k worth. The counter guy called me and said so and so is trying to buy this stuff on your account did you send him here? I said absolutely not and my very next call was to the GC while he was still there. I totally reamed his arse, and that was the last time we worked together.

It helps that I'm the only guy on my account and if I'm sending someone else I put the order for will call.


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

What pisses me off is that a lot of the suppliers will sell to the general public water heaters for what I pay for them. Their reason? If we don't go down on the price they will go somewhere else.


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

victoryplbaz said:


> I get a call from a guy i did work for few months ago. Hes wanting me to bring some samples of sinks and faucets because they are redoing the kitchen. I tell him there is a local supplier that will show him products and some are working models. I then say you can let me know and il price it for ya. Well I get a call this am from my wife wanting to know why I let a customer buy some fixtures on our account. I tell her i didnt ok any thing to be bought on our account. She tells me hes trying to buy 4,000.00 worth of plumbing on our account. i told her stop him..i dont know this guy or even remember him well.
> 
> So i get pissed off as im working and call the supplier. I asked if the restrictions i put on the account still there? They say yes,, PO, ID, not cash sales, and the list of people ok to buy. I then asked why is the store in another part of town selling to this guy on my account. They very quickly transfered me to the manager and we got to the bottom of this. Turns out since he wasnt on the list to buy they sold it to him with my discount!!:furious: I told him do not ever do that again!!! Shoot i went in to get a can of pipe dope and they wouldnt sell it to me because i said no cash sales. :blink:
> 
> anyone ever have a customer try this???


That's too bad... 

Never let customers know where you get parts.

I tell customers like this (high-end remodel etc...) who are looking for fixtures that they can look online, find what they like, and email me part numbers if they want, so I can check compatibility. I steer them towards manufacturers websites as the pricing is usually msrp. 

I tell GC's who ask that I get all my parts on the Internet.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

I have no problem telling a customer exactly where I bought materials for their job and exactly what I paid for them.

I am not in the supply business so I could care less since I don't make money selling supplies. I make money selling my knowledge of what to do with those supplies.

If my business requires a $200 gross profit (above material cost) on a particular repair, then that is what I will charge for the service regardless of the price or origin of the material.


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## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> I have no problem telling a customer exactly where I bought materials for their job and exactly what I paid for them.
> 
> I am not in the supply business so I could care less since I don't make money selling supplies. I make money selling my knowledge of what to do with those supplies.
> 
> If my business requires a $200 gross profit (above material cost) on a particular repair, then that is what I will charge for the service regardless of the price or origin of the material.


I also cover my profit on labor rate alone. I was referring to putting stuff on my account as being my problem with the whole thing I could care less about my discount but don't have the nerve to charge it to me at the same time. I always markup material I supply because I figure that covers my time to go get it.


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

I agree with telling them where i buy stuff. I dont care if they know. But dont try to get it on my account and me not know anything about it. If they did get away with it what are the chances i would had got paid for it..let alone do the install. I can see how that would have went down..used some fake name and i get stuck paying for the parts. Supplier isnt going to eat it and if we dont know who,, its all on me.


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## Tim`s Plumbing (Jan 17, 2012)

If I send a customer to a showroom to pick out fixtures the suply house knows that they do not give my pricing to the customer. I get around 40% below list I was told they give GC`s 30 % below list.


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

plbgbiz said:


> I have no problem telling a customer exactly where I bought materials for their job and exactly what I paid for them.
> 
> I am not in the supply business so I could care less since I don't make money selling supplies. I make money selling my knowledge of what to do with those supplies.
> 
> If my business requires a $200 gross profit (above material cost) on a particular repair, then that is what I will charge for the service regardless of the price or origin of the material.


I'm sure you have gone over this business practice of not marking up parts many times... 

After reading many of your posts, I would guess you probably have written a manifesto on the subject.

I have never heard a plumbing company owner say he doesn't mark up materials.

Is there a link to a thread where you expound on this practice?


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

mightypipe said:


> I'm sure you have gone over this business practice of not marking up parts many times...
> 
> After reading many of your posts, I would guess you probably have written a manifesto on the subject.
> 
> ...


I have talked about it before but I don't know which threads. It really is petty simple in my mind.

I set a budget.
I include everything in the budget including profit.
I set my billable hour rate based on the budget.
Customer pays a quoted price based on the billable rate plus the materials. 

Regardless of the origin of the materials, my budget is met. 
Changing bibb washers? My budget is met. 
Installing 14k gold faucets? My budget is met. 
Customer provides their own gold faucet? My budget is met.

Here is a fake number example...

Customer is to get a t/s valve replacement. I look at the job and give them a price of $585. Customer says they will provide their own faucet. I say no problem. My cost on the faucet of $96 is deducted and I charge $489 to install their faucet.

We will not use customer provided repair parts, fittings, or pipe.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

It doesn't bother me that customers know where I get materials, our suppliers sell to everybody anyways. (That's what bothers me.)
But if customer provides it I don't have to back it up.
But if I provide the fixture I mark it up because I know if it fails I will be expected to repair or replace. I only stand behind what I have a track record with or feel comfortable with.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

victoryplbaz said:


> I get a call from a guy i did work for few months ago. Hes wanting me to bring some samples of sinks and faucets because they are redoing the kitchen. I tell him there is a local supplier that will show him products and some are working models. I then say you can let me know and il price it for ya. Well I get a call this am from my wife wanting to know why I let a customer buy some fixtures on our account. I tell her i didn't ok any thing to be bought on our account. She tells me hes trying to buy 4,000.00 worth of plumbing on our account. i told her stop him..i don't know this guy or even remember him well.
> 
> So i get pissed off as im working and call the supplier. I asked if the restrictions i put on the account still there? They say yes,, PO, ID, not cash sales, and the list of people ok to buy. I then asked why is the store in another part of town selling to this guy on my account. They very quickly transferred me to the manager and we got to the bottom of this. Turns out since he wasn't on the list to buy they sold it to him with my discount!!:furious: I told him do not ever do that again!!! Shoot i went in to get a can of pipe dope and they wouldn't sell it to me because i said no cash sales. :blink:
> 
> anyone ever have a customer try this???


*When I had my shop in LA. we had a no tools order, and I found one that was selling tiny tim hacksaws to my plumbers so I asked them if they would also sell them a $3,000.00 dollar machine
because if they sell one it might as while be the other the only difference is the number of zeros,
NO TOOLS MEANS JUST THAT !
*


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## damnplumber (Jan 22, 2012)

*Bingo!*



Epox said:


> It doesn't bother me that customers know where I get materials, our suppliers sell to everybody anyways. (That's what bothers me.)
> But if customer provides it I don't have to back it up.
> But if I provide the fixture I mark it up because I know if it fails I will be expected to repair or replace. I only stand behind what I have a track record with or feel comfortable with.


That's basically what I do. If they want to save money and buy it themselves, I tell them I cannot cover your purchase on my warranty. 
I don't care if they know where I get my supplies as there are very few options in this small town I live. I also am not shy to tell them I will mark up the parts I provide. 
I never had a customer try to do what your client did but I have had an employee do that. I fired him and gave him 24 hours to pay me back before I had him arrested.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Our supply house is good at protecting the contractor. The discount we get covers our mark-up. 

I always call the supply house showroom to let them know I am sending a customer their way - they quote the customer accordingly. If a customer randomly showed up, requesting our discount, they would call me prior to quoting prices.


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## wyplumber (Feb 14, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> We will not use customer provided repair parts, fittings, or pipe.


I agree 100% with what you the Main gc we build houses for provides all fixtures and even wh lol but I will not install his tub shoe kits he buys the cheapest one made i think last time I was at his shop he must of had 30 of them tells me they come as part of the lot he orders


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## phishfood (Nov 18, 2012)

Epox said:


> It doesn't bother me that customers know where I get materials, our suppliers sell to everybody anyways. (That's what bothers me.)
> But if customer provides it I don't have to back it up.
> But if I provide the fixture I mark it up because I know if it fails I will be expected to repair or replace. I only stand behind what I have a track record with or feel comfortable with.


plbgbiz, would you comment on the above?

That is my current perspective, but I am sure you have thought of that as well, so I am interested in your thoughts on it.


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## suzie (Sep 1, 2010)

victoryplbaz said:


> I get a call from a guy i did work for few months ago. Hes wanting me to bring some samples of sinks and faucets because they are redoing the kitchen. I tell him there is a local supplier that will show him products and some are working models. I then say you can let me know and il price it for ya. Well I get a call this am from my wife wanting to know why I let a customer buy some fixtures on our account. I tell her i didnt ok any thing to be bought on our account. She tells me hes trying to buy 4,000.00 worth of plumbing on our account. i told her stop him..i dont know this guy or even remember him well.
> 
> So i get pissed off as im working and call the supplier. I asked if the restrictions i put on the account still there? They say yes,, PO, ID, not cash sales, and the list of people ok to buy. I then asked why is the store in another part of town selling to this guy on my account. They very quickly transfered me to the manager and we got to the bottom of this. Turns out since he wasnt on the list to buy they sold it to him with my discount!!:furious: I told him do not ever do that again!!! Shoot i went in to get a can of pipe dope and they wouldnt sell it to me because i said no cash sales. :blink:
> 
> anyone ever have a customer try this???


 
Yes and the wholesaler sold it to customer at my gost and it was a scheduled Sunday job because house was going on the market Monday and current faucet was leaking bad.

I went in on Monday and talked to the Manager because I was...well:furious: He gave me $150.00 credit to make up for my loss.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

phishfood said:


> plbgbiz, would you comment on the above?
> 
> That is my current perspective, but I am sure you have thought of that as well, so I am interested in your thoughts on it.


I do not offer any warranty expressed or implied on any material I do not provide.

As far as marking up to cover warranty is concerned, my warranty service is already figured into the installation price. If the customer chooses to provide their own fixture, nothing changes on the price. By having EVERYTHING included in the installation price, it is a win/win for me.

Some jobs are moe prone to a call back than others or will at least be more expensive if it happens. For instance, the expense to offer a warranty on a faucet repair is not near as costly as a warranty call on a 18' deep sewer tap. This is all taken into consideration when a price is given for a particular project. The cost of a particular fixture and then getting a % markup to cover the warranty is not sound math. My cost for a warranty call back on a chrome faucet is no moe than the cost to fix a leak on a brushed nickel faucet. 

It is financial risk that must be calculated for warranty, not material cost. They are not the same thing. For instance, installing 15' of 4" sch 40 PVC pipe for a drain reroute in a basement does not present the same financial warranty risk as using that same material to repair the 18' deep riser on the city main. So...charging a set material markup % to cover warranty risk is not relevant to the need.


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## SewerRat (Feb 26, 2011)

Phat Cat said:


> Our supply house is good at protecting the contractor. The discount we get covers our mark-up.
> 
> I always call the supply house showroom to let them know I am sending a customer their way - they quote the customer accordingly. If a customer randomly showed up, requesting our discount, they would call me prior to quoting prices.


That's what Victory thought last week too...


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

SewerRat said:


> That's what Victory thought last week too...


I'm sure it happens, but not the norm. The main reason I send customers to the showroom is to get them out of the Big Box stores, not to make extra money. When it happens, yay for me.

There are so many options, that we don't have the time to sit down with a customer that wants to take an hour looking at everything, only to go with the first fixture they saw. IMO, in that case, the showroom deserves the mark-up, not me.

In return, when a customer walks off the street to buy fixtures, the showroom will refer them to us. One hand washes the other. :yes:


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

victoryplbaz said:


> ...Turns out since he wasnt on the list to buy they sold it to him with my discount!! I told him do not ever do that again!!!
> anyone ever have a customer try this???


lol---chances are the customer would have gotten that price anyway.

Supply houses are there to make sales to keep their own jobs. Anyone walks through their door is a potential paying customer, so they will make the sale any way they can. (Fergies being the exception.)

The counterman tried to give you brownie points with the customer by saying that he's getting a discount from your account. You should thank him.


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

The point being. I would have maybe called and said give them my discount. But for someone to just go in and do it and assume its ok? Wonder how he would think if i just showed up at his work and took whatever they produce or offer. I have a problem with how they wouldnt let me the owner buy a small can of pipe dope. But have no issue letting someone *NOT *on my list to just put what they want on my account. Im not going to punish my supplier because one sales person screwed up. But we will have a small talk monday about this and Im sure it wont happen again. If it does then we will have a problem and someone is paying for it, and its not me!!


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## mightypipe (Dec 22, 2012)

Plumber said:


> The counterman tried to give you brownie points with the customer by saying that he's getting a discount from your account. You should thank him.


This is only a problem when you calculate material mark-up into your profit margin... 

It is an inaccurate way to run your business, or 'not mathematically sound' for many reasons; this being only one shining example. 

I can see what Biz is talking about with regard to incidents like this. He has the ability to SEE and REALIZE his profit on every job, regardless of variables. (Within reasonable limits)

Still... It strikes me personally (so far) as an over-complication of a process that ends up being the same thing in the end. 

Company takes in money for services and materials... And pays out money to operate. The rest is profit; some for the business, and some for the owner, depending on need and availability. Apart from having systemized the built-in 'set' profit margin, and encasing it in a flat rate book so that his plumbers can easily and quickly bid jobs, I don't see how or why it makes a difference what you call it... It's still the same thing. 

In your example of the t/s valve replacement Mr. Biz, the bid was $585 (if I remember right--too lazy to go back and look). The customer wants to supply the valve, so you take $96 (your cost) off the price, and the bid is $489. I see that not hiding money in the materials column, allows your guys to take less off the end price when the customer decides to supply materials, but isn't it REALLY just the same thing with a different name? Are there other benefits that I am missing?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Relic said:


> Wow that pissed me off just reading about it here. I would definitely be looking for someone's head on the chopping block for this.


 

Agreed, and that's where I know the why this supply house did this. 


Do the deed, ask for forgiveness later. 4 grand sale is significant, and it's a big swing of inventory than a plumber coming in once/twice a week spending a few hundred on smaller items.


In big picture, if you're spending a lot there, kill the relationship, forever. 

I've done that to one supply house in my area, it's been since 95 and I'll never be back. Lost me a job being so casual over the ordering of a dome for a shower. 


But remember, the internet didn't exist. Reaching out to suppliers across state lines was nearly impossible as it sat in an order catalog that might be years old. 

So venturing outward when all you have is a landline phone, your local phone numbers isn't going to be fruitful. 


Reaching out to another state dialing in numbers, no matter where in the nation is second nature. 


Remember 25 years ago when it was a momentous occaision when someone out of state called? 

Not anymore...


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

victoryplbaz said:


> The point being. I would have maybe called and said give them my discount.
> 
> But for someone to just go in and do it and assume its ok? Wonder how he would think if i just showed up at his work and took whatever they produce or offer.


I walked into a few restaurants owned by nasty customers, ordered, ate and then demanded to have a time and material breakdown of the bill.

I started with the waitress and worked my way up to the owner who by then figured it out. It wasn't a pretty scene, but bet they never did it again to another trade.

All the restaurants are long gone, too.


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## johntheplumber (Feb 11, 2013)

Plumber said:


> I walked into a few restaurants owned by nasty customers, ordered, ate and then demanded to have a time and material breakdown of the bill.
> 
> I started with the waitress and worked my way up to the owner who by then figured it out. It wasn't a pretty scene, but bet they never did it again to another trade.
> 
> All the restaurants are long gone, too.


That is so wron....brilliant!


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## Adamche (Feb 10, 2012)

Relic said:


> Wow that pissed me off just reading about it here. I would definitely be looking for someone's head on the chopping block for this.


Knobs and knockers.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Stupid -illinois law required contractor to have break down on cost... anyone here know if they ever enforced it??


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