# Tankless Water Heater



## Fatpat

I never recommend or encourage tankless water heaters. They seem to not last and have much more headaches.

Should I be more open minded?


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## GREENPLUM

Yes, if they want the luxury of forever hot water why deny them, they work well and have good warranties 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Qplumb

In the right situation using a quality tankless is fine but more often than not tankless water heaters are being installed with the false notion that it's going to save money. In reality they usually cost more over their lifespan than a tank. Like any water heater you want to size it correctly for the application. 
When I have a customer that wants a tankless I always ask why? The most common response is to save money. After I look over their situation, needs and wants I'll give them several options with all the pros and cons and let them decide. 

For example let's say I have a weekend cabin on the lake, not a lot of room for a tank water heater and I take 40 minute showers. I only use the cabin on weekends. The water is taken from the lake. A tankless is actually the better choice here for several reasons one being endless hot water another being much safer not having a tank full of stagnant water full of bacteria. Since water comes from Lake you would want to test and treat water before it enters tankless to prolong it's life. Even though it's more expensive than a tank it's still the better option and it's not being installed to save money but rather give the customer what they want.


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## ShtRnsdownhill

I would say tankless or more on the luxury side for continuous hot water and space savings, if sized properly..in the long run do you save any money..maybe..you have to add the original cost of the unit and what it cost to operate compared to a tank cost and operational costs...every situation should be looked at and decided which one will work best for the person it is being installed for..


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## Paul4813

My opinion is you become more open minded. If for no other reason than this. This younger generation that are starting to buy homes have grown up on nothing but technology and computers. I am finding that these young people are seeing water heaters with mother boards in them, so they can relate....and they want it...at whatever cost....regardless of our recommendations.


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## SHEPLMBR70

They do require more maintenance as in the flushing process. Since there is no tank to let the sediment sit. There is also the minimum required flow on some models.


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## dhal22

We install many tankless annually. Customers love them, profit margins are better, rarely any call backs, high performance products, what's not to like? I have a tank less in my house and love it. Come home sore from a hard day's work and I stand under my scorching hot 2 head shower as long as I want to.


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## A Good Plumber

Fatpat said:


> I never recommend or encourage tankless water heaters. They seem to not last and have much more headaches.
> 
> Should I be more open minded?


Pat, We've installed more than 125 Tankless water heaters in the past 7 years and have not had one call back for a failure. (we stick to one manufacturer and refuse to install some others) 
Most important is the proper gas size, venting and installation location. If done correctly, you should never experience a problem.
We also provide service and repair to other Tankless units and most of the time the issue is related to poor or inproper installation.
Consumers do have a short learning curve because Tankless water heating has it's quirks, like "cold pockets". California home owners sometimes shut off their water during their shower, in the interest of saving water, and this causes a "cold pocket".
Knowing the product your installing and teaching your customer what they might experience, will eliminate any operating issues you or your customer might come across.

I personally love Tankless but agree that there are situations where it just doesn't make sense over a tank type.
The life expectancy of a tank water heater is 8-10 years and a Tankless should give twice that.


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## dhal22

A Good Plumber said:


> Pat, We've installed more than 125 Tankless water heaters in the past 7 years and have not had one call back for a failure. (we stick to one manufacturer and refuse to install some others)
> Most important is the proper gas size, venting and installation location. If done correctly, you should never experience a problem.
> We also provide service and repair to other Tankless units and most of the time the issue is related to poor or inproper installation.
> Consumers do have a short learning curve because Tankless water heating has it's quirks, like "cold pockets". California home owners sometimes shut off their water during their shower, in the interest of saving water, and this causes a "cold pocket".
> Knowing the product your installing and teaching your customer what they might experience, will eliminate any operating issues you or your customer might come across.
> 
> I personally love Tankless but agree that there are situations where it just doesn't make sense over a tank type.
> The life expectancy of a tank water heater is 8-10 years and a Tankless should give twice that.



So very well said. Every sentence is spot on in the tankless installation business. Stick to a quality brand and stay there.

Too bad Eternal went out of business. Their design was a hybrid with a small storage tank wrapped around the heat exchanger; NO cold water sandwich.


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## BOBBYTUCSON

eternals were bad ass when they worked, but were indeed ****. but give them credit, they were created n designed by a bbq manufacterer. not a bad run. 

nowadays, rinnai, navien and ao smith are very nice units. navien has the best customer service hands down next to a.o. noritz is really up and coming with thier stuff especially being able to adapt to old flue


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## celtic1

Qplumb said:


> In the right situation using a quality tankless is fine but more often than not tankless water heaters are being installed with the false notion that it's going to save money. In reality they usually cost more over their lifespan than a tank. Like any water heater you want to size it correctly for the application.
> When I have a customer that wants a tankless I always ask why? The most common response is to save money. After I look over their situation, needs and wants I'll give them several options with all the pros and cons and let them decide.
> 
> For example let's say I have a weekend cabin on the lake, not a lot of room for a tank water heater and I take 40 minute showers. I only use the cabin on weekends. The water is taken from the lake. A tankless is actually the better choice here for several reasons one being endless hot water another being much safer not having a tank full of stagnant water full of bacteria. Since water comes from Lake you would want to test and treat water before it enters tankless to prolong it's life. Even though it's more expensive than a tank it's still the better option and it's not being installed to save money but rather give the customer what they want.


 THANKLESS TANKLESS


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## dhal22

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> eternals were bad ass when they worked, but were indeed ****. but give them credit, they were created n designed by a bbq manufacterer. not a bad run.
> 
> nowadays, rinnai, navien and ao smith are very nice units. navien has the best customer service hands down next to a.o. noritz is really up and coming with thier stuff especially being able to adapt to old flue


There is at least 50 of our Eternals still working, including mine. A high performance heater for sure.


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## Debo22

Fatpat said:


> I never recommend or encourage tankless water heaters. They seem to not last and have much more headaches.
> 
> Should I be more open minded?


We're in the same area and most houses are 2 bathrooms, 3 tops and with the tankless hype think they need one too. I always ask, do you run out of hot water or do you need the space. Most of the time a tank is right for them. 
That being said, I've installed quite a few Naviens and they've worked great.


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## SewerRatz

BOBBYTUCSON said:


> eternals were bad ass when they worked, but were indeed ****. but give them credit, they were created n designed by a bbq manufacterer. not a bad run.
> 
> nowadays, rinnai, navien and ao smith are very nice units. navien has the best customer service hands down next to a.o. noritz is really up and coming with thier stuff especially being able to adapt to old flue


A.O Smith / State tankless heaters are just rebadged Takagi heaters. They indeed make a great unit. 

As for Noritz, they tend to discontinue models frequently and getting parts for the discontinued models is getting difficult even though the heaters are only 3 years old. They also changed their 24/7 technical service line to bankers hours.


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## Green Country

I've probably only put in about fifteen, almost all naviens, but so far the customers love them. 

I don't know if they really save much money, but they do provide endless hot water. I don't push them but I also am not going to talk someone out of something if that's what they want unless it's really just a bad idea.


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## BOBBYTUCSON

dhal22 said:


> There is at least 50 of our Eternals still working, including mine. A high performance heater for sure.


yup, the retrofit kit made a difference


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## BOBBYTUCSON

SewerRatz said:


> A.O Smith / State tankless heaters are just rebadged Takagi heaters. They indeed make a great unit.
> 
> As for Noritz, they tend to discontinue models frequently and getting parts for the discontinued models is getting difficult even though the heaters are only 3 years old. They also changed their 24/7 technical service line to bankers hours.



i did not know this ! im gonna have to research takagi now, thank you


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## ShtRnsdownhill

I have been using the takagis for about 15 years, nice units no issues...


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## Plumber

As a person who believes in conservation, endless hot water is a huge waste of water and energy. If you can't get clean in under 3 minutes, you're either a hooker or a plumber.

No to tankless water heaters.


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## fhrace

Go to youtube and search "Want to buy a tankless water heater". It is a cartoon video. Hilarious. I have a HTP Versa Hydro in my house.


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## MACPLUMB777

*Nortiz tankless*

I have just run across a apt building with NORTIZ mdl N-063s tankless
MFG march 2005 leaking heat exchanger, 
each heater is mounted in a 2nd floor closet feeding two showers, & two lavs,
Question would that rate as Residential use, and still be under warranty ? 
or do they need to buy a new heater,
they want me to pull one that is not being used out of vacant apt, used for storage and put in place of leaker ? all are 2005 year:whistling2:


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## steventyler

According to me, tankless water heater are last longer, save space with a compact design and also better for the environment because a rusty tank doesn't end up in the landfill.


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## rwh

steventyler said:


> According to me, tankless water heater are last longer, save space with a compact design and also better for the environment because a rusty tank doesn't end up in the landfill.



What? Do they not have scrap metal buyers where you're from?


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## Phat Cat

IMO, open-minded means educating yourself about the options available, and be willing to discuss with your customers.

The majority of the time, our customers want a professionals opinion and we should not shy away from offering it. Like someone else stated, ask your customer why they want a tankless water heater. 

I cannot tell you how often customers are under the false assumption that a tankless water heater is cheaper in the long run because all they know is that there is an energy savings. Factor in the upfront cost and maintenance and I doubt there is any payback.


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## dhal22

Most of our customers are happy with the tankless higher performance and are willing to pay a premium for it. If it's a tank job, it's a tank job. If 50 gallons isn't enough then we will mention a tankless (or two 50's). Sometimes the customer wants a tankless regardless.


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## Sipp

While I am a tank guy at heart, tankless definitely has its place. As it's already been said, a tankless has to sized appropriately for the job. One of the biggest complaints I have heard is the homeowner getting a HUGE gas bill after installation. This is typically the result of one or more people in the household taking excessively long showers. As an example:a 30 minute shower and a 50gallon 40mBtu tank. It will use approxmately 20mBtu during the shower. Substitute a 200mBtu tankless, that half hour shower just used approximately 199mBtu. That's 5X the amount of gas! Not much savings there.


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## ShtRnsdownhill

Sipp said:


> While I am a tank guy at heart, tankless definitely has its place. As it's already been said, a tankless has to sized appropriately for the job. One of the biggest complaints I have heard is the homeowner getting a HUGE gas bill after installation. This is typically the result of one or more people in the household taking excessively long showers. As an example:a 30 minute shower and a 50gallon 40mBtu tank. It will use approxmately 20mBtu during the shower. Substitute a 200mBtu tankless, that half hour shower just used approximately 199mBtu. That's 5X the amount of gas! Not much savings there.


thats a false comparison,, most of those customers wouldnt get that long of a shower out of a tank and when they get a tankless they are in heaven and stay in the shower for a looong time..it needs to be explained they are paying for and getting Cadillac service instead of taxi cab service...


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## Sipp

I agree that a 30 minute shower from a 50gallon tank isn't practical, but regardless of the shower length, they are still using up to 5X the gas for the same length of shower. No disagreement that this should be explained to the customer, but the reality is that it isn't explained well if at all, most of the time. Add in a teenager or 2 and the gas bill can grow very quickly. 

I get asked a lot about tank vs tankless when I do my contractor trainings. The number of times I have explained this to a group of plumbers and I get confused looks or requests to go over it again is countless. This isn't as likely to happen if the guys have been thru some formal training, such as the Local or thru the PHCC, but it still happens.


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## Toli

Sipp said:


> While I am a tank guy at heart, tankless definitely has its place. As it's already been said, a tankless has to sized appropriately for the job. One of the biggest complaints I have heard is the homeowner getting a HUGE gas bill after installation. This is typically the result of one or more people in the household taking excessively long showers. As an example:a 30 minute shower and a 50gallon 40mBtu tank. It will use approxmately 20mBtu during the shower. Substitute a 200mBtu tankless, that half hour shower just used approximately 199mBtu. That's 5X the amount of gas! Not much savings there.




Can you share the math behind that?

In my head, and I could be wrong here, if all things are constant, the amount of hot water used in both scenarios are the same. If the rise is the same in both scenarios the amount of energy used should be the same.


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## ShtRnsdownhill

Sipp said:


> I agree that a 30 minute shower from a 50gallon tank isn't practical, but regardless of the shower length, they are still using up to 5X the gas for the same length of shower. No disagreement that this should be explained to the customer, but the reality is that it isn't explained well if at all, most of the time. Add in a teenager or 2 and the gas bill can grow very quickly.
> 
> I get asked a lot about tank vs tankless when I do my contractor trainings. The number of times I have explained this to a group of plumbers and I get confused looks or requests to go over it again is countless. This isn't as likely to happen if the guys have been thru some formal training, such as the Local or thru the PHCC, but it still happens.


I have installed many gas tankless heaters and usually the only higher price is the equipment and install, remember long after you take a shower with a tank it is running to bring 50 gallons of water up to temp and a tankless shuts off immediately till the next use...I havent todate heard anyone complain the gas bill went up, usually it goes down a little...but there are the exceptions like I mentioned where unlimited hot water brings on long showers and big tubs to fill...also the tankless are variable firing rates, so in the summer it runs alot less btus than say winter..so its not burning 199,000 btu all the time its running..


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## Sipp

Toli said:


> Can you share the math behind that?
> 
> In my head, and I could be wrong here, if all things are constant, the amount of hot water used in both scenarios are the same. If the rise is the same in both scenarios the amount of energy used should be the same.


Sure. Let's take a Bradford White RG250T6N, which is a 40,000 btu 50 gallon tank. And a Takagi TD2-IN-N which is 199,999 btu. If the burner on the Bradford is burning for 30 minutes, it will consume 20,000 btu. If the Takagi burner is running FULL TILT, it will consume just under 100,000 btu. 100,000 divided by 20,000 = 5.


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## dhal22

A tankless does not run full tilt in most situations. Efficiency alone means less gas consumption. You're trading energy for heat, one is 60% efficient using 40,000 btus all the time, the other is 97%+/- efficient, often using the same btu's.


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## Toli

Sipp said:


> Sure. Let's take a Bradford White RG250T6N, which is a 40,000 btu 50 gallon tank. And a Takagi TD2-IN-N which is 199,999 btu. If the burner on the Bradford is burning for 30 minutes, it will consume 20,000 btu. If the Takagi burner is running FULL TILT, it will consume just under 100,000 btu. 100,000 divided by 20,000 = 5.




Your math is fine but I think you left out a few steps.

Using your scenario, you have two 30 minute showers. Let's assume 120 degree hot water, 70 degree cold water, shower temp of 105 and. 2.5 GPM shower head. 

That works out to 52.5 gallons of hot water used in both scenarios. 

Take two containers that are exactly the same and put 52.5 gallons of 70 degree water in each. Put a 40K burner under one and a 199,000K burner under the other. For the sake of discussion assume 100% efficiency. Heat them to 120 degrees. 

Both containers of water will be heated to 120. The larger burner will do it faster but the amount of energy used by both burners will be the same. 

Obviously appliance efficiency plays a huge role actual real world conditions.


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## ShtRnsdownhill

Toli said:


> Your math is fine but I think you left out a few steps.
> 
> Using your scenario, you have two 30 minute showers. Let's assume 120 degree hot water, 70 degree cold water, shower temp of 105 and. 2.5 GPM shower head.
> 
> That works out to 52.5 gallons of hot water used in both scenarios.
> 
> Take two containers that are exactly the same and put 52.5 gallons of 70 degree water in each. Put a 40K burner under one and a 199,000K burner under the other. For the sake of discussion assume 100% efficiency. Heat them to 120 degrees.
> 
> Both containers of water will be heated to 120. The larger burner will do it faster but the amount of energy used by both burners will be the same.
> 
> Obviously appliance efficiency plays a huge role actual real world conditions.


nope..that formula wont work either..the tankless heats on the go and the tank has cold water coming into already hot water and lowers the temp of the existing hot water..so there is no fixed amount of water being heated at the same time, also the tank is grossly inefficient because of that and the tankless is highly efficient.....im sure there is an engineer that can formulate a good explanation to be understood...but in reality, you use less gas with a tankless to get the same hot water...and since gas meters are read monthly, you cant figure on just one use of a tankless vs a tank...you have to look at whats going on the whole month...how many times does the tank run just to keep 50 gallons of hot water on hand vs the tankless never runs to just maintain...


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## Toli

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> nope..that formula wont work either..the tankless heats on the go and the tank has cold water coming into already hot water and lowers the temp of the existing hot water..so there is no fixed amount of water being heated at the same time, also the tank is grossly inefficient because of that and the tankless is highly efficient.....im sure there is an engineer that can formulate a good explanation to be understood...but in reality, you use less gas with a tankless to get the same hot water...and since gas meters are read monthly, you cant figure on just one use of a tankless vs a tank...you have to look at whats going on the whole month...how many times does the tank run just to keep 50 gallons of hot water on hand vs the tankless never runs to just maintain...




Like I said appliance efficiency changes actual usage. My math does not take that into account. And if we want to figure out gas used or dollars spent we would have to take that into account. 

My point was the laws of physics do not change regardless of the appliance. 

A tankless is more efficient than a tank type heater no doubt. But the amount of energy used to heat a fixed amount of water from one temperature to another does not change. 

The amount of fuel, however, does.


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## ShtRnsdownhill

gotcha....


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## dhal22

Toli said:


> Like I said appliance efficiency changes actual usage. My math does not take that into account. And if we want to figure out gas used or dollars spent we would have to take that into account.
> 
> My point was the laws of physics do not change regardless of the appliance.
> 
> A tankless is more efficient than a tank type heater no doubt. But the amount of energy used to heat a fixed amount of water from one temperature to another does not change.
> 
> The amount of fuel, however, does.


You're saying for example it takes 25,000 btu's to heat 50 gallons of cold water to 110 degrees but wastes another 15,000 btu's due to inefficiency, whereas a tank less will use 25,000 as well but only wastes 500 btu's due to higher efficiency.


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## Cipp-pro

dhal22 said:


> So very well said. Every sentence is spot on in the tankless installation business. Stick to a quality brand and stay there.
> 
> Too bad Eternal went out of business. Their design was a hybrid with a small storage tank wrapped around the heat exchanger; NO cold water sandwich.




Navien has a small storage tank to prevent cold sandwiches! The gen 3 are great IMHO


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## Toli

dhal22 said:


> You're saying for example it takes 25,000 btu's to heat 50 gallons of cold water to 110 degrees but wastes another 15,000 btu's due to inefficiency, whereas a tank less will use 25,000 as well but only wastes 500 btu's due to higher efficiency.




I think we're saying the same thing? 50 gallons is 417 lbs. if we want to heat it 70 degrees it would need 29190 btu. The appliance is 80% efficient so actual btu burned is 36488. 97%= 30093 btu. 

The difference is 6395 btu. That works out to .0640 therms. If you're paying $.40/therm you just saved something like $.026. 

I hope I did the math right. Someone correct me if I didn't.


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## Toli

Forgot about the pilot. That changes the savings above.


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## plumberkc

Nobody has mentioned the maintenance cost to descale a tankless unit. I charge $250 to do a tankless flush which is recommended every 6-12 months. 

Also have to say, tank style water heaters are averaging 15 years here. That's not just a number I came up with in my head, it's actual data that has been recorded and displayed on Water Heater Database. 

At an rate, a tankless install is 3x the cost to install. Most of the efficiency specs are assuming a mild cold water temperature and a delivery temp of 120. 

With that said, I have a tankless in my home and it is an awesome machine. Just don't try to convince me that it has any cost saving benefits. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Toli

plumberkc said:


> Nobody has mentioned the maintenance cost to descale a tankless unit. I charge $250 to do a tankless flush which is recommended every 6-12 months.
> 
> Also have to say, tank style water heaters are averaging 15 years here. That's not just a number I came up with in my head, it's actual data that has been recorded and displayed on Water Heater Database.
> 
> At an rate, a tankless install is 3x the cost to install. Most of the efficiency specs are assuming a mild cold water temperature and a delivery temp of 120.
> 
> With that said, I have a tankless in my home and it is an awesome machine. Just don't try to convince me that it has any cost saving benefits.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Can't argue with that. 

Cost of heating water is one thing. 

Cost of ownership is another.


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## dhal22

Toli said:


> Forgot about the pilot. That changes the savings above.


Good math Toli. :thumbsup:


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## dhal22

Cipp-pro said:


> Navien has a small storage tank to prevent cold sandwiches! The gen 3 are great IMHO


Yes they are, Navien is what we install now that Eternal has gone out of business. And the small storage tank isn't the 1st thing that other manufacturers copied from Eternal.


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## dhal22

plumberkc said:


> Nobody has mentioned the maintenance cost to descale a tankless unit. I charge $250 to do a tankless flush which is recommended every 6-12 months.
> 
> Also have to say, tank style water heaters are averaging 15 years here. That's not just a number I came up with in my head, it's actual data that has been recorded and displayed on Water Heater Database.
> 
> At an rate, a tankless install is 3x the cost to install. Most of the efficiency specs are assuming a mild cold water temperature and a delivery temp of 120.
> 
> With that said, I have a tankless in my home and it is an awesome machine. Just don't try to convince me that it has any cost saving benefits.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



We descale customer's tankless heaters every year or 2 (Non Eternal heaters) and don't see much of a difference even on 3 yr intervals. But we may have softer water here.

Most of my clients could care less about the cost savings, they just want the performance. I sold 2 Naviens today solely based upon performance. They may cost 3 times to install but I charge 3x more as well. Both of my sales today were sold at over $4000 each installed.


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## plumberkc

dhal22 said:


> We descale customer's tankless heaters every year or 2 (Non Eternal heaters) and don't see much of a difference even on 3 yr intervals. But we may have softer water here.
> 
> 
> 
> Most of my clients could care less about the cost savings, they just want the performance. I sold 2 Naviens today solely based upon performance. They may cost 3 times to install but I charge 3x more as well. Both of my sales today were sold at over $4000 each installed.













If they want performance, the GDHE-50 will blow any tankless out of the water. There is really no comparison. I sell these for about $4,000. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Master Mark

plumberkc said:


> If they want performance, the GDHE-50 will blow any tankless out of the water. There is really no comparison. I sell these for about $4,000.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



and may god help you when you finally have one of those that gives you fits.. I know of a few here in town that have been nothing but trouble.......


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## plumberkc

Master Mark said:


> and may god help you when you finally have one of those that gives you fits.. I know of a few here in town that have been nothing but trouble.......



That's good to get feedback. Was it that same model? Commercial or residential? Gas line sized accordingly? Venting up to specs? It's really just a smaller version of the commercial vertex which is a very common commercial heater. 


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## Master Mark

plumberkc said:


> Nobody has mentioned the maintenance cost to descale a tankless unit. I charge $250 to do a tankless flush which is recommended every 6-12 months.
> 
> Also have to say, tank style water heaters are averaging 15 years here. That's not just a number I came up with in my head, it's actual data that has been recorded and displayed on Water Heater Database.
> 
> At an rate, a tankless install is 3x the cost to install. Most of the efficiency specs are assuming a mild cold water temperature and a delivery temp of 120.
> 
> With that said, I have a tankless in my home and it is an awesome machine. Just don't try to convince me that it has any cost saving benefits.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



KC....you are so correct about this and I have been saying it for the past 15 years.... Tankless are great if you are the owner of a plumbing company that can de-lime the unit twice a year and save that $250 bill.. 

If you are some sissey accountant who crunched the numbers and forgot to factor in this bi-annual service , then you are totally screwed because you are helpless and at the mercy of the local plumber....:yes:

I have had 3 calls this month for that service and no one in this town wants anything to do with it... 
First you tell the person its gonna be $275 and they like literally soil their pants while on the phone with you. 
Then you tell them that they have probably waited about 5 years too long to expect the de-limeing process to be successful on the tankless unit they never de-limed since it was installed back in 2009. That always seems to go over real good too.


I have considered buying the pump and set up at the supply house for 150 but I really dont care to get involved with this because I think they SUCK anyway....

In my area the heaters vary in life length... the bradfords last about 7 years
the smiths last about the same and the Rheems seem to handle the water better than all the rest and come in around 10-13 years... I think our water is more aggressive than what you have in Kansas.....

Either way Tankless are a GREAT investment........!!!!!


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## Master Mark

plumberkc said:


> That's good to get feedback. Was it that same model? Commercial or residential? Gas line sized accordingly? Venting up to specs? It's really just a smaller version of the commercial vertex which is a very common commercial heater.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I believe it had more to do with the very high acidity coming off the condensation drain that was eating up the cast floor drains or sump pumps..
These units are residential vertexes that came out maybe 8 years back...

I will find out more about them because one person had to tear it out due to the troubles he was having and he was a plumber......


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## Cipp-pro

Four NPE 240 a


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## dhal22

The preferences/costs of tankless here in this discussion seems to mostly be based on local water quality. Descaling every 6 months (not necessary here in north Georgia) would indeed drive up the overall cost of tankless ownership. Here even 2 year intervals don't seem to make much difference.

Stainless steel heat exchangers eliminates the 'extra cost' of tankless ownership even more.


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## Master Mark

*Dumb question....*



Cipp-pro said:


> Four NPE 240 a




That copper plumbing all looks real nice, but I guess I got a dumb question


Being that all 3 are tied into the same vent line going out of the building....
I guess that their is some sort of baffle or back check valve in those units to keep each from back drafting into each other when only one or two come on??

I know I cant tie two 75 gal power vents into the same 3 inch line and 
you cant tie two 90% efficient furnaces into the same outgoing pvc line.... and these are basically glorified power vents pushing air under pressure out that larger pipe, so what internally makes this set up ok?????? 

so I probably need an education on tankless


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## ShtRnsdownhill

Master Mark said:


> I believe it had more to do with the very high acidity coming off the condensation drain that was eating up the cast floor drains or sump pumps..
> These units are residential vertexes that came out maybe 8 years back...
> 
> I will find out more about them because one person had to tear it out due to the troubles he was having and he was a plumber......


there is a canister filled with ( looks like gravel) that goes after the condensate drain out of the unit that neutralizes the acidic condensate so you dont have any damage to the plumbing system..
https://www.amazon.com/Noritz-NC-1-...rds=acid+neutralizing+unit+for+navien+heaters


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## Toli

Yeah, acidic condensate isn't a heater problem. Any condensing appliance will have that. 

Don't the noritz have the neutralizer built into the unit?


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## Sipp

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> there is a canister filled with ( looks like gravel) that goes after the condensate drain out of the unit that neutralizes the acidic condensate so you dont have any damage to the plumbing system..
> https://www.amazon.com/Noritz-NC-1-...rds=acid+neutralizing+unit+for+navien+heaters


The condensate neutralizers are filled with calcium/lime and takes the condensate from a PH of around 4.5 to closer to 7.


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## dhal22

plumberkc said:


> If they want performance, the GDHE-50 will blow any tankless out of the water. There is really no comparison. I sell these for about $4,000.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I see 4 gpm unlimited and 129 gal per hour performance here. From hotwater.com:



> The GDHE-50 Vertex™ Power Direct Vent gas water heater delivers an unprecedented 96% thermal efficiency rating and is designed specifically to generate a constant flow of 4 gallons per minute, resulting in continuous hot water for your home.
> 
> Featuring a 50-gallon tank and a 100,000 BTU gas burner, the GDHE-50 Power Direct Vent delivers a thermal efficiency of 96%, and a recovery rate of 129 gallons per hour. It carries a 6-year limited warranty, and meets Ultra-Low NOx emission requirement


That's not 11 gpm like a tankless or 660(?) gallons per hour. Yes, I know, performance drops in winter but both designs have to deal with colder water input.
I'm seeing $2600 online, no doubt cheaper at a supply house but a big tankless unit is $1300ish. So for a $4000 sale I put another $1300 in my pocket. 

There is indeed no comparison.


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## plumberkc

It's actually cheaper online, still less than $2600. 

What the specs don't show is just how these perform in a real world situation. The clientele we are targeting for these high end water heaters usually have several bathrooms. 

I'm considering 2-3 people showering at the same time, while laundry, and maybe even dishes are running. Also one of those showers could have body jets, multiple heads, ECT. 

That's where a tankless just can't compare. You would really need 2 tankless models to keep up with the GDHE.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cipp-pro

Master Mark said:


> That copper plumbing all looks real nice, but I guess I got a dumb question
> 
> 
> Being that all 3 are tied into the same vent line going out of the building....
> I guess that their is some sort of baffle or back check valve in those units to keep each from back drafting into each other when only one or two come on??
> 
> I know I cant tie two 75 gal power vents into the same 3 inch line and
> you cant tie two 90% efficient furnaces into the same outgoing pvc line.... and these are basically glorified power vents pushing air under pressure out that larger pipe, so what internally makes this set up ok??????
> 
> so I probably need an education on tankless


Yes that's correct thers a baffle/ damper. Preventing backflow of exhaust also the heaters communicate with each other. One a master the other are slaves and are set up for common venting in the computers via dip switches


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## dhal22

plumberkc said:


> It's actually cheaper online, still less than $2600.
> 
> What the specs don't show is just how these perform in a real world situation. The clientele we are targeting for these high end water heaters usually have several bathrooms.
> 
> I'm considering 2-3 people showering at the same time, while laundry, and maybe even dishes are running. Also one of those showers could have body jets, multiple heads, ECT.
> 
> That's where a tankless just can't compare. You would really need 2 tankless models to keep up with the GDHE.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My 19.5 gpm of hot water tankless will handle 3 simultaneous showers at the same time in the dead of winter with ease and has many times. 

I've installed many big single Noritz, Rennai, Eternal and Navien units in large high demand homes and have never had a complaint. But I have received many happy phone calls, emails and verbal comments. Maybe the performance drop in the winter up north is more than I realize.


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## dhal22

plumberkc said:


> Nobody has mentioned the maintenance cost to descale a tankless unit. I charge $250 to do a tankless flush which is recommended every 6-12 months.


how much do you charge and how often do you flush a customer's tank water heater in your area?


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## Cipp-pro

Hourly rate. 110 plus material About 200 bucks. All tankless need a softener and descale 
Don't forget about the softener if you have hard water if softener is maintained 1 time a year for descaling


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## dhal22

No, I'm asking about flushing a tank heater. If you want to add flushing costs to tankless ownership costs then you have to do the same to tank ownership costs.


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## plumberkc

dhal22 said:


> how much do you charge and how often do you flush a customer's tank water heater in your area?




I don't, it doesn't make any difference here. We have hard water here but aside from that it's some of the best water in the country. 










Thermal expansion is what kills tanks around here. This is a crap GE that lasted 16 years with no expansion tank and 125/65 psi water pressure. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dhal22

We offer tank flushing, most don't take the offer but some do. Same as with tank less.


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## alldayplumbing

dhal22 said:


> Most of our customers are happy with the tankless higher performance and are willing to pay a premium for it. If it's a tank job, it's a tank job. If 50 gallons isn't enough then we will mention a tankless (or two 50's). Sometimes the customer wants a tankless regardless.


Some customers we visit want tankless because they 'heard' it was better from their friends. They dont necessarily know why, they just want it for that reason.


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## Master Mark

plumberkc said:


> I don't, it doesn't make any difference here. We have hard water here but aside from that it's some of the best water in the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thermal expansion is what kills tanks around here. This is a crap GE that lasted 16 years with no expansion tank and 125/65 psi water pressure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Kc..... where is your plumbing sticker?? I dont see one on that water heater... 


You should be proud of your work........:laughing:


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## plumberkc

This is the after. The crap Home Depot tank had a plastic drain valve which broke immediately after trying to unscrew it. Water temperature was extremely hot, definitely a bad deal. 


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## efkruaysd

Fatpat said:


> I never recommend or encourage tankless water heaters. They seem to not last and have much more headaches.
> 
> Should I be more open-minded?


i used it also. my review is positive for the tankless water heater.


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## Brianmills7786

You


ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I have been using the takagis for about 15 years, nice units no issues...


I agree with you sir. Tankless water heaters are latest technology regarding water heaters. Here are the Collection of best electric tankless


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