# Commercial tub question



## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

So I'm at a point in life where I'm working for a commercial plumbing contractor. We're working a hotel project and installing Sterling fiberglass tub units. In my personal experience I have ALWAYS set these units in a structolite bed to avoid the impending flex that will occur.
The outfit I'm with is not putting anything under these tubs & it's actually causing me to lose sleep. I can't get how anyone would not set the tub in some sort of base. How hard should I push the issue, or is there a good pill available to help me sleep. Oh, and don't get me started on the fact that we're plumbing the domestic water in CPVC!


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

Domestic water in CPVC?
I feel for ya.
You have to go up the chain of command, no other way IMO.

I do a lot of municipal work, and you can get things done after winning the hearts and minds of the people who wield influence.
Can you suggest to the management to send an RFI to the architect to specify a structolite base for the reasons you said, and state that the additional cost will be minimal.
Also, CC the owner in order to put additional pressure on the architect to do the job right.


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## Ptturner91 (Oct 13, 2012)

newyorkcity said:


> Domestic water in CPVC? I feel for ya. You have to go up the chain of command, no other way IMO. I do a lot of municipal work, and you can get things done after winning the hearts and minds of the people who wield influence. Can you suggest to the management to send an RFI to the architect to specify a structolite base for the reasons you said, and state that the additional cost will be minimal. Also, CC the owner in order to put additional pressure on the architect to do the job right.


Yes email the owner about how you want to charge more that's the way to securing work
Are you working as the contractor or as an employee? Sometimes as an employee you just have to do as your told


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

At the stage of the project you're at, it is a little late to be doing an add-on.

The units will last well beyond the standard 1 year manufacturing and workmanship warranty. Nobody is going to want to take that money out of their pocket since they will view it as a zero ROI. The GC just wants to get past the 1 year warranty. The end user will likely not even know who the plumbing company is, nor will they care. 

Are you willing to do the extra work for free knowing you are not even the one responsible if they don't last? Then why would anyone else? And before you say it is only a matter of minutes....

There is the decision making process that takes time from other persons' other duties, change orders, making the purchase of the mortar, delivery, staging, installing, and cleanup. Then all your buddy's trying to find out who's fault it is they have to carry the bags from room to room. Then you have to figure out which tubs did not get the mortar and redo them, or explain why it is okay to leave them alone.

Leaving out the mortar base was not an oversight, it was on purpose to save money. 

Really? CPVC? And you want to go to the wall over mortar beds for the tubs? Let it go. Not your problem.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

What do the installation instructions for the tub say?

Maybe your employer is pulling a fast one and opening your mouth will cost him extra time and material in addition to pulling out already installed tubs. This could come back as a, "You aren't installing the tubs IAW the instructions and it's on your employer."

I'd go up the chain in your company and find out before making waves outside of the company...


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks for your input all. In response to your comments, Biz, while I realize it's not my problem, I was looking for advise on how to reconcile my own work ethic, as a former operator, with that of an employer.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

mccmech said:


> Thanks for your input all. In response to your comments, Biz, while I realize it's not my problem, I was looking for advise on how to reconcile my own work ethic, as a former operator, with that of an employer.


Understood and it is awesome that you have that concern and ethic built in. Too many people do not.

If it bugs you, follow Red's advice. Send it up the chain in-house only. If the guy signing the checks wants it left as is, you really just have to turn a blind eye and do the best you can with the hand you are dealt.

Taking it outside your company as a first step is a really bad move.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I'm pretty sure Sterlings installation instructions say set in a mortar bed...


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## newyorkcity (Nov 25, 2010)

What they said ^^^.
When I referred to "chain of command", I meant within the company.
If your boss does not go for structolite, maybe you can use non-expanding spray foam as a band aid.

I just ran into a similar situation in a school. 
I had to install an Ansul valve (valve only) with gas piping in a kitchen for a fire alarm project.
The old master gas control valve lock wing gas cocks would not hold gas for a test.
After sending an RFI to the architect with the following picture, recommending to repipe the MGCV with new shutoffs and bring it down from 18 feet high, the response was to add a shutoff to pass the test and leave everything alone. Including the severe rust at the clevis hanger.
Before:







After:


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Yes they, do, although they allow for a felt pad on wood subfloor. I showed my foreman the install instructions, only due to my concern about possible litigation in the event of a failure before the 1 year warranty period expires. Anyway, like Biz says, it ain't my problem. Guess I just gotta learn how to forget the work ethic that was beat into my skull as an apprentice, journeyman and self-employed master. C'est La Vie!


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> Understood and it is awesome that you have that concern and ethic built in. Too many people do not.
> 
> If it bugs you, follow Red's advice. Send it up the chain in-house only. If the guy signing the checks wants it left as is, you really just have to turn a blind eye and do the best you can with the hand you are dealt.
> 
> Taking it outside your company as a first step is a really bad move.


I NEVER even insinuated I would take this concern outside my employer. Don't even know where ya got that impression. I do appreciate your incite though.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Let me clarify that I never stated anything about going outside of my company on this matter. Please keep advise given to me separate from the concerns expressed in my original post.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

mccmech said:


> I NEVER even insinuated I would take this concern outside my employer. Don't even know where ya got that impression. I do appreciate your incite though.


I didn't see it that way...
Just covered that base...


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

mccmech said:


> I NEVER even insinuated I would take this concern outside my employer. Don't even know where ya got that impression. I do appreciate your incite though.


My mistake. Must have misread something. :bangin:


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## plumber tim (Jul 4, 2013)

The company I went to work for last year doing multi residential uses strips of 7/8" plywood about 2" wide to hold the tub or shower off the sub floor. Gypsum is then poured through out the entire apartment or condo. Leaving the tub up 7/8" allows gypsum to flow under


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

mccmech said:


> Yes they, do, although they allow for a felt pad on wood subfloor. I showed my foreman the install instructions, only due to my concern about possible litigation in the event of a failure before the 1 year warranty period expires. Anyway, like Biz says, it ain't my problem. Guess I just gotta learn how to forget the work ethic that was beat into my skull as an apprentice, journeyman and self-employed master. C'est La Vie!


I have installed hundreds of these tubs in hotels and apts,and they have little feet about 6-8inches apart that rest on the floor that supports the tub and they work really well,the only ones that might need a morter bed under it are the ones on the bottom floor settin on the concrete,the concrete is not level and the tubs feet are not resting on the concrete therefore letting the tub bottom have give in it,we morter the ones on thebottom floor and that is it,what you can do is set the tubs,get them level and then have helpers go back with the morter and have them put it under the feet that are not touching the floor,and they can put morter in from both ends of the tub,work like a charm


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## Rando (Dec 31, 2012)

Are those the ones that have the two plastic brackets you snap in underneath to hold the side in place? If it is I feel for ya. We did a ten story apartment building a couple years ago and all the tubs are flexing now and loosening the drains. We are still going back to fix them even though it's out of warranty. A big pain in the arse.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Yes they are. Guess I should just be glad this isn't my call as far as just setting them.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

mccmech said:


> Yes they are. Guess I should just be glad this isn't my call as far as just setting them.


 Just enjoy the glue while putting the cpvc together and you will soon forget about them as its not your liabailty


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Most manufacturers have gone away from a setting bed and to use one goes against the installation instructions. A "commercial" tub sounds more heavy duty when you say it but the truth is they probably get less use than a residential tub. In addition, most chains will refresh the rooms with a new liner every 5-10 years. As for 1-year warranties, they mean nothing if the job was installed wrong.

Mark


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

rjbphd said:


> Just enjoy the glue while putting the cpvc together and you will soon forget about them as its not your liabailty


hey if its sch. 80 cpvc I have no problem with it,in fact we have put it in several large hotels thru the yrs,only problem with sch. 80 cpvc is you have to use a primer on it or it tends to leak at the joints,but once it is installed it is there to stay.=good stuff


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Redwood said:


> I'm pretty sure Sterlings installation instructions say set in a mortar bed...


3. Install the Bath
CAUTION: Risk of product damage. Do not use the apron brace to lift the bath from the carton.
IMPORTANT! Squeaking may develop if the bath is installed over a subfloor other than plywood. To prevent
squeaking, place a pad, such as roofing felt, between the bath and subfloor.
IMPORTANT! Ensure that the apron brace is locked in position over the bath feet and apron posts before
removing the bath from the carton. Do not install the bath without the brace.
- Leave the protective liner in the bath to prevent scratching during the installation.
- Install the drain and overflow to the bath according to the drain manufacturer’s instructions. Do not connect the
trap at this time.
- Move the bath into the recess. The bath must be level and all bath feet must contact the floor. Metal shims may be
placed under the bath feet, if necessary.
- Attach the five support clips to the tub (refer to the diagram on this page and the roughing-in illustrations for
proper clip locations). Use a pliers to bend the tabs over the bath rim.
- Secure the attachment clips to the center of the studs with large head roofing nails.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

ToUtahNow said:


> 3. Install the Bath
> CAUTION: Risk of product damage. Do not use the apron brace to lift the bath from the carton.
> IMPORTANT! Squeaking may develop if the bath is installed over a subfloor other than plywood. To prevent
> squeaking, place a pad, such as roofing felt, between the bath and subfloor.
> ...


While the instructions you have posted are very similar, the specific Sterling instructions I'm looking at include a step #5, which reads as follows: "Without a pad, we recommend the basin area be set in 1" (25 mm) to 2" (51 mm) of mortar cement.". If I weren't such a spaz I would photo the instruction sheet & post it.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

http://www.sterlingplumbing.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/1156425_2.pdf


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## leakfree (Apr 3, 2011)

Those Sterling tubs used to come with a felt pad to install under them,maybe they don't anymore.We installed thousands of them WITH A PAD(various models) over the years on plywood decks,OSB decks,gypsum pours and concrete slabs and I can't think of one instance where we had a problem with the tub flexing in the sump area.I used to be a fan of them,they took a hell of a lot more punishment than the old steel tub's that we were using before they became popular,the wall sections supplied with them were a little more fragile.Always used a true pan head screw on them not a bugle head like a drywall screw has and it lessens the tendency for the plastic to crack.I haven't touched one in ten years so maybe they have changed.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Thank you Mr. Biz for making me feel like even more of a spaz! ;-) ;-)


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