# Mini ball valves



## JorgensenPlbg (Jul 12, 2010)

I've got a customer with people that don't understand how a quarter turn valve works. Anyone know where I can find a mini ball valve with a metal handle. This is for a chemical feed/spout and there is no room for a standard ball valve. Thanks!


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Is the problem the valve or the handle?


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## JorgensenPlbg (Jul 12, 2010)

Plumbus said:


> Is the problem the valve or the handle?


The problem is they are breaking the handles by using a wrench to turn the handle the way they want to turn it. I talked with someone last time I fixed and he said the old one was backwards to the new one. I said when the handle is inline it is on and when it is perpendicular it is off. There is a language issue as well. My Spanish is poqueto!


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

I don't know which brand of ball valve you are using but my go to (Red-White) offers a retrofit tee handle. You could hang a bilingual sign indicating with an arrow which way is off when the valve is in the on position.


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

JorgensenPlbg said:


> .... I said when the handle is inline it is on and when it is perpendicular it is off. There is a language issue as well. My Spanish is poqueto!


Translation:
- Inline position is on- posicion lineal abierto
- perpendicular is off- perpendicular cerrado.

Also I sent you a pm.


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## JorgensenPlbg (Jul 12, 2010)

Gargalaxy said:


> Translation: - Inline position is on- posicion lineal abierto - perpendicular is off- perpendicular cerrado. Also I sent you a pm.


Thanks!


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## JorgensenPlbg (Jul 12, 2010)

Plumbus said:


> I don't know which brand of ball valve you are using but my go to (Red-White) offers a retrofit tee handle. You could hang a bilingual sign indicating with an arrow which way is off when the valve is in the on position.


I'm using a small chrome one I found on Graingers website. It has a small black handle. I found a valve on Dahls website that looks all metal.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

JorgensenPlbg said:


> I'm using a small chrome one I found on Graingers website. It has a small black handle. I found a valve on Dahls website that looks all metal.


 That looks real code compliant and safe. Wow, I'll bring the glass and ice cubes, you can drink it.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

I hope their is an rpz on that water line.


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## JorgensenPlbg (Jul 12, 2010)

Installed what the plumbing/cross connection inspector asked for.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Plumber's nightmare.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

What cross connection inspection happened? Because I don't see one that happened or he does not know what he's looking at.


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## JorgensenPlbg (Jul 12, 2010)

plumbdrum said:


> What cross connection inspection happened? Because I don't see one that happened or he does not know what he's looking at.


Well when I was an apprentice my teacher talked about the state of Wisconsin and the state of Milwaukee. I was called in to do repairs from a list that was sent to the business owner and I found a few other issues to fix. Toilet rocking leaking faucet etc. I called inspector to inquire about list and was told what he wanted done with suggestions where to find a few parts needed. I would hope that he knows what he's doing. Had a call from another business to adjust a ballcock that was set to low. I thought for sure it was about two sump pumps valved to go to the laundry tray in winter. Somehow this was missed! So maybe not.


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

It may or may not be a cross connection. Would have to see the rest of it to determine that. 

Either way, it's not legal to connect them that way, at least around here.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Without even seeing the rest of it , it is very easy to see the cross connection.


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

plumbdrum said:


> Without even seeing the rest of it , it is very easy to see the cross connection.


How so? Some have a legitimate air gap, some have an atmospheric vacuum breaker and some are a flat out cross connection. One could argue that an at. vac. brkr is not an acceptable means of protection. 

I'm not looking for an argument here. Just trying to see where your coming from.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Toli said:


> How so? Some have a legitimate air gap, some have an atmospheric vacuum breaker and some are a flat out cross connection. One could argue that an at. vac. brkr is not an acceptable means of protection. I'm not looking for an argument here. Just trying to see where your coming from.


How about the fact That you have 2 ball valves on a faucet? Can you guarantee that those stems in the faucet have checks, or are even working for that matter. A cross connection does not always have to involve a foreign substance.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

No matter how you slice this, there is a possible cross connection, this was talked about recently in another thread.the best way to deal with this is to have dedicated mixed temp line with a testable device. The problem I see in the pic is hot water migration into the cold, regardless if there are checks in the stems or not.


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## dclarke (Dec 22, 2012)

Definite cross connection between hot and cold if there are no check valves. The other thread was mine. Can't fix what the customer won't pay for so in my case it's not fixed.


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

plumbdrum said:


> How about the fact That you have 2 ball valves on a faucet? Can you guarantee that those stems in the faucet have checks, or are even working for that matter. A cross connection does not always have to involve a foreign substance.


I can't argue with that. Part of the problem is the definition of a cross connection in my code doesn't include the hot/cold crossover problem:



> "Cross-Connection": Any actual or potential connection or arrangement between two otherwise separate piping systems, one containing potable water and the other containing fluids or gases of any kind that do not meet potable water quality standards, in which the non-potable substances in one system may flow into the potable water system or enter it through a means such as back pressure, back siphonage or aspiration.


So when I hear "cross connection" I automatically think potable/nonpotable. That's not to diminish the hot/cold crossover issue. It's very real and happens a lot. 

The part in my code that prohibits the connection shown in the pic is:



> Section 890.200 Operation of Plumbing Equipment
> 
> a) All plumbing equipment required by this Part shall be operated in the manner intended by the manufacturer. No alteration or modifications to plumbing fixtures, equipment and appurtenances which would negate designed safety features shall be allowed. All plumbing systems shall be maintained in a functional, safe and sanitary condition. The owner of the facility shall be responsible for maintenance of the plumbing system.


So you're left with a dedicated line. The whining starts when they realize that the soap and sanitizer need different temp water so now we've got two dedicated lines and possibly two mixing valves. That gets expensive. 

But it makes no difference to me. I don't make the rules but I gotta play by them. 

We good? I hope I didn't come across as starting an argument. Not my thing.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Toli said:


> I can't argue with that. Part of the problem is the definition of a cross connection in my code doesn't include the hot/cold crossover problem: So when I hear "cross connection" I automatically think potable/nonpotable. That's not to diminish the hot/cold crossover issue. It's very real and happens a lot. The part in my code that prohibits the connection shown in the pic is: So you're left with a dedicated line. The whining starts when they realize that the soap and sanitizer need different temp water so now we've got two dedicated lines and possibly two mixing valves. That gets expensive. But it makes no difference to me. I don't make the rules but I gotta play by them. We good? I hope I didn't come across as starting an argument. Not my thing.


No worries, my code talks about cross connections just like you described, but it also refers to back pressure and back siphon in the same definition.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Ok there is a cross connection even if there is a vacuum breaker at the soap Despenser it is still against codes. The second ball valve makes the potential of pressure being on the vacuum breaker over 12 hours in a 24 hour period, wich is illegal. The soap Despenser is non portable and it does not matter if you have hot or cold or both. Cross connected systems only have two classes one a nuisance and two death don't get it wrong somebody might suffer.


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## Toli (Nov 7, 2015)

Out of curiosity, would this be considered a legal airgap on a soap dispenser in your respective area?


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