# Kohler 1pc with no trap fill tube



## futz

A friend (and customer) of mine has three fancy Kohler one piece toilets in his house. It's been too long for me to remember the model name or numbers. They have Fluidmaster 400A valves in them, but they have no trap fill tubes. The outlet port is still there, but it's solid plastic - no hole, and no tube. 

He needs new valves throughout. The old ones are wearing out. But when I went there when the first one failed with a Pro45B I didn't know exactly what to do about the trap fill tube problem. I used it, but he hates the noise it makes. The toilet doesn't need one. Anyone ever successfully kink off or plug those hoses? Or should I order the genuine article and wait for months to get them? This is Canada, and parts often aren't very well stocked here (it's pathetic sometimes).


----------



## Plumber Jim

If he doesn't like the noise, You can order him an OEM fill valve from kohler and he can just pay more for the over priced valve.


----------



## Redwood

I usually just clip it to the overflow so it sprays into the tank and not the overflow. If they object to the noise screw a stainless steel or brass screw into the stub on the fill valve...


----------



## futz

Redwood said:


> I usually just clip it to the overflow so it sprays into the tank and not the overflow. If they object to the noise screw a stainless steel or brass screw into the stub on the fill valve...


That sounds like a plan. I have one possible source for Kohler parts. If they don't have them and I have to order and wait I'll just try one of those two solutions, or maybe I'll suddenly get creative when I'm there looking at it again and think of something better. 

If you aim that water just right it doesn't make much noise. Obviously I didn't aim it good enough before. Maybe I can improve the aim. We shall see.

Hmmm... Extra long tube zip-tied to the outside of the overflow tube so it's always underwater? Slightly risky, but use extra zip-ties for redundancy. How do they age in water?


----------



## Plumber Jim

futz said:


> That sounds like a plan. I have one possible source for Kohler parts. If they don't have them and I have to order and wait I'll just try one of those two solutions, or maybe I'll suddenly get creative when I'm there looking at it again and think of something better.
> 
> If you aim that water just right it doesn't make much noise. Obviously I didn't aim it good enough before. Maybe I can improve the aim. We shall see.
> 
> Hmmm... Extra long tube zip-tied to the outside of the overflow tube so it's always underwater? Slightly risky, but use extra zip-ties for redundancy. How do they age in water?


If you put the tube of a 400a in the water it will siphon.


----------



## RealLivePlumber

I used a dab of 2 part epoxy in the 400A. Worked great. :thumbsup:


----------



## PLUMBER_BILL

futz said:


> A friend (and customer) of mine has three fancy Kohler one piece toilets in his house. It's been too long for me to remember the model name or numbers. They have Fluidmaster 400A valves in them, but they have no trap fill tubes. The outlet port is still there, but it's solid plastic - no hole, and no tube.
> 
> He needs new valves throughout. The old ones are wearing out. But when I went there when the first one failed with a Pro45B I didn't know exactly what to do about the trap fill tube problem. I used it, but he hates the noise it makes. The toilet doesn't need one. Anyone ever successfully kink off or plug those hoses? Or should I order the genuine article and wait for months to get them? This is Canada, and parts often aren't very well stocked here (it's pathetic sometimes).


I think the toilet was a Rialto Flush valve was on the right. Ballcock on left no refill tube, but the valve did have an adjustable thumb screw. On a valve failure water could come into the tank faster than the overflow left it out. This ***** caused a lot of damage as the water would ru on the floor through the holes in the back of the tank. The repair now being sold is a new ballcock and included is a high capacity flush valve [opening about 1.25 x 2 inches.
A real PITA to install and adjust properly. 

http://www.kohlerserviceparts.kohle...db&SearchedString=84499&PageNum=0&PageSize=12

*Looks like valve is not a F/M but a Coast Master*


----------



## futz

PLUMBER_BILL said:


> I think the toilet was a Rialto Flush valve was on the right. Ballcock on left no refill tube, but the valve did have an adjustable thumb screw. On a valve failure water could come into the tank faster than the overflow left it out. This ***** caused a lot of damage as the water would ru on the floor through the holes in the back of the tank. The repair now being sold is a new ballcock and included is a high capacity flush valve [opening about 1.25 x 2 inches.
> A real PITA to install and adjust properly.


Definitely not Rialto. I installed a lot of those long ago. Possibly San Raphael. No thumb screw on the fill valve. It's plain old 400A, but with plugged trap fill fitting.

EDIT: The toilets are a couple Rosarios and a San Martine (both discontinued now).


----------



## futz

Plumber Jim said:


> If you put the tube of a 400a in the water it will siphon.


Siphon what? To where?


----------



## futz

RealLivePlumber said:


> I used a dab of 2 part epoxy in the 400A. Worked great. :thumbsup:


Now that just makes me worry. Epoxy on plastic, unless you can rough up that plastic aggressively to give the epoxy something to key into, could slip. Then it would pop out and squirt out under the edge of the lid, damaging dude's super expensive house. Plastic is too slippery for epoxy to stick well to, in my opinion.


----------



## Don The Plumber

futz said:


> Now that just makes me worry. Epoxy on plastic, unless you can rough up that plastic aggressively to give the epoxy something to key into, could slip. Then it would pop out and squirt out under the edge of the lid, damaging dude's super expensive house. Plastic is too slippery for epoxy to stick well to, in my opinion.


 Super expensive house= purchasing correct super expensive Kohler replacement fill valves= PITA, I know, = sleeping well at night, knowing super expensive house will stay dry:yes:. 

Order the correct parts, TMO.


----------



## Plumber Jim

futz said:


> Siphon what? To where?


Have you ever seen what happens when someone stuffs the refill tube down the overflow tube rather than use the airgap fitting? it will run and run


----------



## futz

Plumber Jim said:


> Have you ever seen what happens when someone stuffs the refill tube down the overflow tube rather than use the airgap fitting? it will run and run


????? :blink: Huh? :blink: I've done it myself many, many times (long ago - these days they give you a proper clip to attach the hose with). The manufacturers used to just clip the hose to the inside of the tube. Always worked just fine. There's nothing in that tube but air. Why would you think "it will run and run"? Makes no sense to me. It works just fine. The only concern with the hose down the overflow tube is a possible weak cross connection.


----------



## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

Sounds like a hack job to me. i go ahead and order the stock parts, and fix it right. If he hates the sound so much, sell him something new. If he likes the one piece toilet, then im sure he wouldn't mind buying something different, other than a temporary fix, that is going to cost him more down the road.


----------



## Plumber Jim

futz said:


> ????? :blink: Huh? :blink: I've done it myself many, many times (long ago - these days they give you a proper clip to attach the hose with). The manufacturers used to just clip the hose to the inside of the tube. Always worked just fine. There's nothing in that tube but air. Why would you think "it will run and run"? Makes no sense to me. It works just fine. The only concern with the hose down the overflow tube is a possible weak cross connection.


If you just stuff the tube down the overflow it can cause a siphon. What it will do is cause the refill tube to keep running down the overflow. It is a very well know isssue. Back in the early days when those fluidmasters came out plumbers had that problem till fluidmaster explained that you must use the clip to create the airgap. but messing with you. It s true. I have gone behind lots of people how did that and the toilet ran till i put in the airgap. The customer would look at me puzzled as to how easy the fix was. I was just trying to save you the headache.


----------



## Redwood

Plumber Jim said:


> Have you ever seen what happens when someone stuffs the refill tube down the overflow tube rather than use the airgap fitting? it will run and run


Right stuff it down the inside of the overflow tube below the tank water level it will siphon...

But in the case of the Kohler that doesn't use it we were talking about it being on the outside of the overflow...

So it would siphon from the tank to the tank....:blink:


----------



## futz

Plumber Jim said:


> If you just stuff the tube down the overflow it can cause a siphon. What it will do is cause the refill tube to keep running down the overflow. It is a very well know isssue. Back in the early days when those fluidmasters came out plumbers had that problem till fluidmaster explained that you must use the clip to create the airgap. but messing with you. It s true. I have gone behind lots of people how did that and the toilet ran till i put in the airgap. The customer would look at me puzzled as to how easy the fix was. I was just trying to save you the headache.


I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just can't imagine how that's possible. I'll have to try it in the overflow tube sometime.

Today I stuffed the hose deep in the tank water while it was filling to attempt to make it siphon. No "siphoning" occurred. The float came up and the valve shut off just like normal. I did it multiple times and saw zero evidence of siphoning.

How can a siphon happen if the valve is shut off?

------------------------------

Anyway, I looked for genuine Kohler replacements at the Kohler dealer and of course they had nothing. We could order and wait six months or more. They'd probably ship the wrong thing anyway and I'd end up waiting a year. Screw that.

I put in Pro45B's and kinked the hoses, put a 3/8" copper coupling over the kink and crimped if flat so it'll all stay put. The coupling-weighted end lays on/in the overflow tube so it won't sag down into the float.

It's pretty "hacky", but putting a screw into that thin-walled hose outlet port made me very nervous. I tried every which way I could think of to get the hose to just stay spraying in the tank somehow, but nothing worked very well - too dangerous. I think the kink will stay put long term. I'm gonna find out, anyway. :laughing:


----------



## Redwood

futz said:


> I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just can't imagine how that's possible. I'll have to try it in the overflow tube sometime.
> 
> Today I stuffed the hose deep in the tank water while it was filling to attempt to make it siphon. No "siphoning" occurred. The float came up and the valve shut off just like normal. I did it multiple times and saw zero evidence of siphoning.
> 
> How can a siphon happen if the valve is shut off?


It does happen. Shove it inside the overflow well below the water level of the tank. When the valve shuts off it siphons from the tank and the tank will be refilling shortly.


----------



## futz

Redwood said:


> It does happen. Shove it inside the overflow well below the water level of the tank. When the valve shuts off it siphons from the tank and the tank will be refilling shortly.


Really!?!? That little tiny bit of head is enough to lift that seal? Hmm... I'll take your word for it, but you can bet I'm gonna test it out next time I'm working on one with a new, full-length hose.


----------



## Don The Plumber

Redwood said:


> It does happen. Shove it inside the overflow well below the water level of the tank. When the valve shuts off it siphons from the tank and the tank will be refilling shortly.


 Yep. Seen it a hundred times.
Just had a friends house I was over the other night. He asks me if I can just show him what could be wrong with his toilet cuz it keeps turning on, when no-one is in there. He said he has tried 6 different flappers. I open the lid, & first thing I saw was fill tube shoved down in overflow. I showed him with a flashlight, water siphoning out of tube down in overflow. He said it came on about every 5 to 7 minutes. He still had the air gap clip, so we put that on, & he couldn't believe that was the problem, all this time.:yes:
So why then do they call them anti-siphon?


----------



## Redwood

Don The Plumber said:


> So why then do they call them anti-siphon?


Because they will not siphon back to the supply side from the tank.


----------



## SlickRick

It is a fact that if the refill tube is pushed down in the overflow tube below the water level it can cause it to siphon and the fill valve will discharge enough water to replace what is being siphoned into the bowl. A lot of plumbers don't realize what is happening.


----------



## Don The Plumber

Redwood said:


> Because they will not siphon back to the supply side from the tank.


 I knew that. I was just being a smart a$$, towards the manufacturers design flaws.


----------



## Don The Plumber

slickrick said:


> It is a fact that if the refill tube is pushed down in the refill tube below the water level it can cause it to siphon and the fill valve will discharge enough water to replace what is being siphoned into the bowl. A lot of plumbers don't realize what is happening.


The water from the tank, is basically draining into bowl, just as if flapper was leaking.:yes:


----------



## Don The Plumber

------------------------------

I put in Pro45B's and kinked the hoses, put a 3/8" copper coupling over the kink and crimped if flat so it'll all stay put. The coupling-weighted end lays on/in the overflow tube so it won't sag down into the float.

It's pretty "hacky", but putting a screw into that thin-walled hose outlet port made me very nervous. I tried every which way I could think of to get the hose to just stay spraying in the tank somehow, but nothing worked very well - too dangerous. I think the kink will stay put long term. I'm gonna find out, anyway. :laughing:

View attachment 7378
[/QUOTE]
The only thing I would be concerned about, is now that the refill tube is crimped off, does that put full pressure on the tube, when filling? If so, I would be worried about it blowing off at the fill valve. Just saying.


----------



## RealLivePlumber

futz said:


> Now that just makes me worry. Epoxy on plastic, unless you can rough up that plastic aggressively to give the epoxy something to key into, could slip. Then it would pop out and squirt out under the edge of the lid, damaging dude's super expensive house. Plastic is too slippery for epoxy to stick well to, in my opinion.


 
I put the epoxy on it the day before, and could not peel it off the next day. Been in there for 3+ years. 

Anyway, this might have looked a little more professional than a kinked hose:whistling2:


----------



## plbgbiz

Futz,

The Kohler OEM replacement will likely also have a flow restrictor in the shank. That is how they accomplish quieter valves. It doesn't always work right but usually the original fill valve will noticeably quieter than an off-the-shelf Fluid Master.

Kohler is best with OEM.


----------



## futz

Don The Plumber said:


> The only thing I would be concerned about, is now that the refill tube is crimped off, does that put full pressure on the tube, when filling? If so, I would be worried about it blowing off at the fill valve. Just saying.


When I kinked it I was a bit concerned about that, so I opened and closed the kink several times to see if it was under big pressure when kinked off. You know, like when you kink a garden hose and it swells up, then when you unkink it you get a big burst of pressure as it deflates? The trap fill tube doesn't do that at all.

The way I figure it, the tube never has full pressure because most of the water is going to fill the tank. The tube is just a little squirt off the side. Pinch it off and that 2% of the water flow just goes the other way into the tank instead.


----------



## futz

plbgbiz said:


> The Kohler OEM replacement will likely also have a flow restrictor in the shank. That is how they accomplish quieter valves. It doesn't always work right but usually the original fill valve will noticeably quieter than an off-the-shelf Fluid Master.
> 
> Kohler is best with OEM.


You could very well be correct. Owner dude will let me know - he's over at my house for coffee and computer geekery every Sunday afternoon, and he's definitely NOT shy about biotching and moaning. :laughing: He's very fussy about sounds in his master bath. Meanwhile he's at least up and running. If the slightly louder stock Pro45B bugs him I'll definitely hear about it and will be ordering a Kohler OEM part.


----------



## futz

RealLivePlumber said:


> I put the epoxy on it the day before, and could not peel it off the next day. Been in there for 3+ years.


Oh, I'm sure it worked fine, but it still makes me too nervous to do it myself. I've been sued for flooding a house (insurance paid most of it, but it cost me huge anyway), and it sucked.  



> Anyway, this might have looked a little more professional than a kinked hose:whistling2:


Probably, but I don't know where to get them (auto supply?). How do I charge the customer for driving around for half a day trying to find some little part like that in the exact right size? He doesn't care what the inside of his tank looks like as long as it works good.


----------



## Associated Plum

Plumber Jim said:


> If you just stuff the tube down the overflow it can cause a siphon. What it will do is cause the refill tube to keep running down the overflow. It is a very well know isssue. Back in the early days when those fluidmasters came out plumbers had that problem till fluidmaster explained that you must use the clip to create the airgap. but messing with you. It s true. I have gone behind lots of people how did that and the toilet ran till i put in the airgap. The customer would look at me puzzled as to how easy the fix was. I was just trying to save you the headache.


:thumbup:


----------



## Associated Plum

futz said:


> I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just can't imagine how that's possible. I'll have to try it in the overflow tube sometime.
> 
> Today I stuffed the hose deep in the tank water while it was filling to attempt to make it siphon. No "siphoning" occurred. The float came up and the valve shut off just like normal. I did it multiple times and saw zero evidence of siphoning.
> 
> How can a siphon happen if the valve is shut off?
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Anyway, I looked for genuine Kohler replacements at the Kohler dealer and of course they had nothing. We could order and wait six months or more. They'd probably ship the wrong thing anyway and I'd end up waiting a year. Screw that.
> 
> I put in Pro45B's and kinked the hoses, put a 3/8" copper coupling over the kink and crimped if flat so it'll all stay put. The coupling-weighted end lays on/in the overflow tube so it won't sag down into the float.
> 
> It's pretty "hacky", but putting a screw into that thin-walled hose outlet port made me very nervous. I tried every which way I could think of to get the hose to just stay spraying in the tank somehow, but nothing worked very well - too dangerous. I think the kink will stay put long term. I'm gonna find out, anyway. :laughing:
> 
> View attachment 7378


The reason for the siphon is that there is not an air break between the water in the tank and the end of the refill tube.

I have" heard" if you were to siphon gas out of a car. The end of the hose must be below the gas level in the tank and the only way the siphon is going to break is either raise the hose above the fluid line or the level drop below the hose.


----------

