# Rotting copper drain lines



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

We are beginning to hit a rash of rotting copper drain lines in ceilings lately.... lots of them.... 

. the leaks seems to always ocur between brass fittings in the short copper nipples.

We are getting mostly god awful messess in tight ceilings that the customer just wants a temporary seal rigged up to it... instead of literally tearing out the whole plumbing system.....


Basically a fernco clamp cut longways then wrapped on the pipe from brass to brass works with a lot of silicone..,,,,it seems to last 15 years or more

its like they are all starting to pit all at once throughout the city... most of it is about 1964-70 age 

is anyone else running into this lately or is it just my turn???


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Now that's a quality repair. Jeesh

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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

We still have some copper drains, but most is gone.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Master Mark said:


> We are beginning to hit a rash of rotting copper drain lines in ceilings lately.... lots of them....
> 
> . the leaks seems to always ocur between brass fittings in the short copper nipples.
> 
> ...




Why is the hack repair even an option? Aren't you a professional?

If I can't fix it right I don't fix it.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

It's his get rich scheme

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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Fix and repair are two different animals. I'm certain we would all love to fix problems professionally! Unfortunately we all encounter situations where the client can't afford the "fix". Today's "repair" will buy lots of goodwill, so that, at such time as the client can afford the "fix", we are their go-to plumber. It's awefully easy to cast judgement from the bleachers. It's a little different when yer actually in that particular game. Just my couple pennies worth.


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## Nathan901 (Feb 11, 2012)

I live in an area where 95% of the houses are late 60s/70s. All the copper drain arms are going right now. 

It pays to be water/mold mitigation certified in this area :yes:


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> Basically a fernco clamp cut longways then wrapped on the pipe from brass to brass works with a lot of silicone..,,,,it seems to last 15 years or more[/




Hell yea,done this repair many times,with some of these tightwad people you have to do what you can to fix a leak and still get paid,if that was a flat rate job what would these guys quote it at???2000.00????


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

sparky said:


> Hell yea,done this repair many times,with some of these tightwad people you have to do what you can to fix a leak and still get paid,if that was a flat rate job what would these guys quote it at???2000.00????


That $2k is the show-up charge. There's hazard pay for working with drains, too.


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

A temporary fix at the best. 

Signature on invoice acknowledging what needs to be done and that they are turning down the advice. 

I have a fairly good track record for selling replacement when copper drains fail. Nice bit of bonus funds from the recycling.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> Hell yea,done this repair many times,with some of these tightwad people you have to do what you can to fix a leak and still get paid,if that was a flat rate job what would these guys quote it at???2000.00????


Its worth every bit of 300-500 bucks because if you had to tear out the whole plumbing system it would be thousands and thousands of dollars.....

*the repair works very well indeed....*and in many cases it is literally about the only feasable thing you can do without totally tearing out most of the copper and brass plumbing system . 

in my own personal home I have a fernco clamp on the bottom side of a brass 3 inch elbow going to my first floor bathroom toilet... 

ther pipe had developed a pin hole.at the copper in the finished ceiling...

Back in 2001 I cut out the ceiling in about a 20x20 opening and made this fernco repair and installed a painted plywood panel over the acess hole with screws for the day when I would have to tangle with it again....

2001- to 2015 ...that aint too bad.... 

for a cheap asssed ---hack---repair..


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Smh....


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

I want his job, 300-500$ to split a fernco and tighten 2 clamps. The customer gets their money's worth out of that repair

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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

plumbdrum said:


> I want his job, 300-500$ to split a fernco and tighten 2 clamps. The customer gets their money's worth out of that repair
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Hey, no way....... you cant have my job....:no:
Remember first you got to find the leak, then cut out the ceiling, ect ect...it is just not clamping on a fernco in an open basement on most of these jobs.....


I just did a full day repair on a mess up in a ceiling.....
cut out a copper tub line and lav line going the wrong way full of 50 year old sludge...
.... had to re-route the whole drain line in pvc over to a stack in their laundry room...

and it was a god awful mess... and I should have done a U-tube video...but the cursing would have had to be deleted.....

when they got the bill they told me I was *too cheap.....*

*They are paying you for your knowledge* of how to get them out of a leaking disaster dripping down on their kitchen floring from the bathroom group upstairs...*tonight....* and they got folks comming for Thanks Giving next week ......do you get it???

They dont want to hear a sales pitch about how they are gonna have to tear down the kitchen ceiling and cut out all their 3 inch copper lines to both bathrooms, just cause its beginning to pit.... 
and you claim that this is the only way you will help them out...

*IF YOU can do the Fernco repair trick for a temporary fix ... Then you are certainly their HERO...*


I wish I could post some pics of a few nightmares I have stumbled onto so you could understand and get a better grasp of the situation


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> They dont want to hear a sales pitch about how they are gonna have to cut out all their 3 inch copper lines to both bathrooms, cause its beginning to pit....and that is the only way you will help them out...


Yesssss... That would be called plumbing and would be a reason to call a plumber...


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> Hey, no way....... you cant have my job....:no: Remember first you got to find the leak, then cut out the ceiling, ect ect...it is just not clamping on a fernco in an open basement on most of these jobs..... I just did a full day repair on a mess up in a ceiling..... cut out a copper tub line and lav line going the wrong way full of 50 year old sludge... .... had to re-route the whole drain line in pvc over to a stack in their laundry room... and it was a god awful mess... and I should have done a U-tube video...but the cursing would have had to be deleted..... when they got the bill they told me I was too cheap..... They are paying you for your knowledge of how to get them out of a leaking disaster dripping down on their kitchen floring from the bathroom group upstairs...tonight.... and they got folks comming for Thanks Giving next week ......do you get it??? They dont want to hear a sales pitch about how they are gonna have to tear down the kitchen ceiling and cut out all their 3 inch copper lines to both bathrooms, just cause its beginning to pit.... and you claim that this is the only way you will help them out... IF YOU can do the Fernco repair trick for a temporary fix ... Then you are certainly their HERO... I wish I could post some pics of a few nightmares I have stumbled onto so you could understand and get a better grasp of the situation


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> Hey, no way....... you cant have my job....:no: Remember first you got to find the leak, then cut out the ceiling, ect ect...it is just not clamping on a fernco in an open basement on most of these jobs..... I just did a full day repair on a mess up in a ceiling..... cut out a copper tub line and lav line going the wrong way full of 50 year old sludge... .... had to re-route the whole drain line in pvc over to a stack in their laundry room... and it was a god awful mess... and I should have done a U-tube video...but the cursing would have had to be deleted..... when they got the bill they told me I was too cheap..... They are paying you for your knowledge of how to get them out of a leaking disaster dripping down on their kitchen floring from the bathroom group upstairs...tonight.... and they got folks comming for Thanks Giving next week ......do you get it??? They dont want to hear a sales pitch about how they are gonna have to tear down the kitchen ceiling and cut out all their 3 inch copper lines to both bathrooms, just cause its beginning to pit.... and you claim that this is the only way you will help them out... IF YOU can do the Fernco repair trick for a temporary fix ... Then you are certainly their HERO... I wish I could post some pics of a few nightmares I have stumbled onto so you could understand and get a better grasp of the situation


The key word for this whole topic is temporary. The repairs you spoke about before sound permanent.

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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

It isn't the customer who knows this hack repair exists... It's you the "professional" who is offering it as an option. 

A bad peice of 3" dwv copper between two brass fittings doesn't sound like a huge deal that would take thousands and thousands of dollars to fix. Even if I had to replace both closet sweeps and the joining double San tee it wouldn't be that much. Maybe a 6 hour job max. That wouldn't be a reason to replace all the dwv copper in the home. I don't wanna sit and wait and wonder if one of my jobs will be a call back. I want to feel confidant in my work or I don't do it.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> It isn't the customer who knows this hack repair exists... It's you the "professional" who is offering it as an option.
> 
> A bad piece of 3" dwv copper between two brass fittings doesn't sound like a huge deal that would take thousands and thousands of dollars to fix. Even if I had to replace both closet sweeps and the joining double San tee it wouldn't be that much. Maybe a 6 hour job max. That would be a reason to replace all the dwv copper in the home.
> Yes as soon as you touch it and start cutting each succeeding piece is going to leak as well, it is all tissue paper thin and just waiting for something to disturb it to start leaking plus when you have so many fittings jammed together no telling how much you might have to cut out to get to a place you can splice back into


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

*Rotting copper ... Maybe*



UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> It isn't the customer who knows this hack repair exists... It's you the "professional" who is offering it as an option.
> 
> A bad peice of 3" dwv copper between two brass fittings doesn't sound like a huge deal <SNIP>
> 
> ...


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> It isn't the customer who knows this hack repair exists... It's you the "professional" who is offering it as an option.
> 
> A bad piece of 3" dwv copper between two brass fittings doesn't sound like a huge deal that would take thousands and thousands of dollars to fix. Even if I had to replace both closet sweeps and the joining double San tee it wouldn't be that much. Maybe a 6 hour job max. That would be a reason to replace all the dwv copper in the home. Yes as soon as you touch it and start cutting each succeeding piece is going to leak as well, it is all tissue paper thin and just waiting for something to disturb it to start leaking plus when you have so many fittings jammed together no telling how much you might have to cut out to get to a place you can splice back into


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

I have had to "fix" a pinhole in copper domestic water piping on a well system. Go to use my cutters and it was like trying to cut a soda can. Advise HO they need a re-pipe. I can't afford that! I just want the leak fixed. As long as I have the sign-off on my invoice I sleep fine at night. I'm not here to dictate someone else's finances. I come in to resolve an issue and advise of necessary repairs. And before anyone gets all worked up, there are exceptions & exclusions to everything. I would never personally leave a home with a life threatening condition. I would, however, advise the HO of my obligation to report such things to the AHJ!


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

Bill, I find that a lot of kids just pour partially drank sodas down the kitchen drain & don't run any water to flush the line. If that soda will clean a penny, guess what it's doing to the copper branch line.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> Basically a fernco clamp cut longways then wrapped on the pipe from brass to brass works with a lot of silicone..,,,,it seems to last 15 years or more








Master Mark said:


> IF YOU can do the Fernco repair trick for a temporary fix ... Then you are certainly their HERO...


I guess if 15+ years is your definition of temporary...
Sounds more like you are back tracking and trying to justify being a hack to me.
Rubber and a couple clamps sound good at 10pm on a Saturday until you can get back there on Monday with the correct parts to fix the problem correctly.
Last time I checked, rubber silicone and hose clamps were not listed in the approved materials section of the code book for DWV copper.
If you're so worried about disturbing the rest of the system when you cut out the rotted section why not cut it out with tin snips then unsweat it out of the cast brass fitting?


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## Nathan901 (Feb 11, 2012)

I've only seen one person unsweat a dwv copper fitting that was over 20 years old. 

He actually threw up after. 


Honestly if you use enough sillycone and the clamps are in the right spot, the REPAIR will last longer than the rest of the system. 

If the money isn't there, it isn't there. 

Unless you want to finance the job lol


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

bct p&h said:


> I guess if 15+ years is your definition of temporary...
> Sounds more like you are back tracking and trying to justify being a hack to me.
> *Rubber and a couple clamps sound good at 10pm on a Saturday until you can get back there on Monday with the correct parts to fix the problem correctly.*
> Last time I checked, rubber silicone and hose clamps were not listed in the approved materials section of the code book for DWV copper.
> If you're so worried about disturbing the rest of the system when you cut out the rotted section *why not cut it out with tin snips* then unsweat it out of the cast brass fitting?


 
Thank you, I really enjoyed reading your post... 

I would love to see you cut out a one inch section of 3 inch copper soldered in between a 3inch brass why and 
a 3 inch tee..... *with a pair of tin snips* while standing on a 6 foot ladder.....in the kitchen or living room of someones home with toilet water pissing down on you....:laughing::thumbup: yea buddy......

you really dont got a clue of what you are talking about do you??? PLEASE do a U-tube video so I can watch. and learn how to do that:laughing::laughing::laughing:.... 

My repair in my own home has lasted 15 years...
What the customer decides to do after I make the temp repair is totally their decision... and I give the a price to do the complete overhaul of the system....$$$$

Do you realize what cutting out a ton of brass fittings 
going to a couple of back to back bathrooms on a second floor of a 1965 home usually means?? In most cases, you might as well tear out both of the bathrooms and remodel ..start over

I tell them its temporary and I have bought them some time......but eventually they will have to do the major expensive repairs..... and of course they have the right to get other estimates....or kick the can down the road..

------------------------------------------------------------
update

The person that I just did the repairs on I told him that he would need to tear out his whole laundry room ceiling so we could get access to all the rotten copper....and we would change it all out to PVC.....

instead of making the repairs, he got a drywall man and patched all the holes I had to cut and cleaned it all up,,, and he painted the copper pipe with epoxy at a joint that was visible...

he bought a new house this week and there is a for sale sign in his front yard...:blink::blink:


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

You're acting like this happens everytime you touch this stuff.. I've made these repairs numerous times and have never once had to repipe an entire second floor.. I enjoy the challenge of making it nice and pretty. I'm very precise with my Sawzall and I can make cuts that will not disturb the rest of the piping.


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Nathan901 said:


> I've only seen one person unsweat a dwv copper fitting that was over 20 years old.
> 
> He actually threw up after.
> 
> ...


I've never had a problem unsweating DWV of any age. Not sure what else to say about it. It's not hard or even all that tricky to do.

I've seen people use metal tape to patch over holes of water heater flues. I've seen people patch leaks in water lines with epoxy. I've also seen repairs to copper drain lines done with rubber and hose clamps. Where do you draw the hack line in the sand? Someone mentioned safety before. Whose to say that the hack repair won't still have a small leak in it? Who's to say that small leak won't cause black mold that will cause the people in the building to get sick? Because guess what, I've seen that happen too.
Personally, I'll do it right or not at all.
If the money isn't there, neither am I. I'm not running a charity here. If they don't have the money to pay for the fix, they don't get it. Not from me anyway. I'm not going to waste my time and effort to hack something in just to make a quick buck when there are plenty of other people out there willing to pay to have things done correctly. The people that don't have the money or are too cheap to part with it can call the handy man and get what they pay for. I've invested too much time, energy and money into what I do to hack it in because it's faster or easier or cheaper. If you want to waste your time with these people then by all means, have at it. I have too much respect for myself and what I do for that.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------
> update
> 
> he bought a new house this week and there is a for sale sign in his front yard...:blink::blink:


Soooo He did have the money and now some poor sucker is going to buy a hacked up mess with your name on it... :thumbup:

You let yourself go too cheap... :whistling2:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Soooo He did have the money and now some poor sucker is going to buy a hacked up mess with your name on it... :thumbup:
> 
> You let yourself go too cheap... :whistling2:


Redwood, I dont know if they did have the money or not to do complete this job properly...my estimate was $4500...I just threw a price at them to see if it would stick to the wall or not...:thumbsup:
and there really was no place to start or stop...

I feel if you take a sawzall to that 3 inch stuff, and cut out a bad section, if possible, it is probably gonna shake the whole system loose and other micro cracks in the paper thin joints are gonna start down the line.....
 
But you are probably right, I gave them a break because their son stays over at my house every weekend fooling around with my kids.... I just went time and material and went easy on them...

As far as the moral implications ..... I suppose its lke selling a used car...to the next person with problems..
They are giving them a home insurance policy for a year and then its out of their hands.....

On a side note..
I am gonna take some pics of the next mess I stumble upon and post them here so all the "arm chair quarterbacks " can debate on how to estimate and complete one of these nightmares we run across...


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

JERRYMAC said:


> UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:
> 
> 
> > It isn't the customer who knows this hack repair exists... It's you the "professional" who is offering it as an option.
> ...


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> Redwood, I dont know if they did have the money or not to do complete this job properly...my estimate was $4500...I just threw a price at them to see if it would stick to the wall or not...:thumbsup:
> and there really was no place to start or stop...
> 
> I feel if you take a sawzall to that 3 inch stuff, and cut out a bad section, if possible, it is probably gonna shake the whole system loose and other micro cracks in the paper thin joints are gonna start down the line.....
> ...


I know where you are coming from mark,I'm about 300 miles down the road from you and trust me I have seen and worked on some messes like you describe


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## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> ...
> On a side note..
> I am gonna take some pics of the next mess I stumble upon and post them here so all the "arm chair quarterbacks " can debate on how to estimate and complete one of these nightmares we run across...


Iknowright. I wonder where some of these posters work. Sure as hell, they ain't in service and sure ain't in my part of town.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Fixing it right is just called plumbing...
Some of us do that...:laughing::yes:


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

This stuff is funny, put a patch on the inside of a pipe and you are a great plumber and on the cutting edge. put a patch on the outside of a pipe and you are a hack.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

saysflushable said:


> This stuff is funny, put a patch on the inside of a pipe and you are a great plumber and on the cutting edge. put a patch on the outside of a pipe and you are a hack.



Interesting perspective. Especially given the relatively short manufacturer warranties on many lining products.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

saysflushable said:


> This stuff is funny, put a patch on the inside of a pipe and you are a great plumber and on the cutting edge. put a patch on the outside of a pipe and you are a hack.


Hell to the yea,most important statement made to this thread thus far:thumbup:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

saysflushable said:


> This stuff is funny, put a patch on the inside of a pipe and you are a great plumber and on the cutting edge. put a patch on the outside of a pipe and you are a hack.





plbgbiz said:


> Interesting perspective. Especially given the relatively short manufacturer warranties on many lining products.


Yea Kinda... :laughing:

The big difference I'd say is the way the Fernco is used in this application.
Don't get me wrong I use Fernco's & No-Hubs in a variety of connections and transitions in *approved uses*....

A Fernco by design is pretty much a hose over 2 pieces of pipe secured at both ends with hose clamps, and is used as such in *approved applications*... The secured ends forming the watertight connection to the pipes and the continuous rubber sleeve in between maintaining the watertight properties of the device in between.

The problems I see with the attempts to justify usage are:

1 Show me a Fernco where a connection over a hub of a fitting is an approved use.

2 When you slit the Ferco you altered the Fernco turning it into a saddle type connection. This is where the biggest problem was created as the Fernco is not designed nor approved for use as such. The device is secured at the ends only, with no stiffening or means of sealing where you have slit the Fernco to slide it over the pipe. In your area, under your code where are saddles approved for use? Interior and above ground???? :whistling2:

3 Without proper sealing you resorted to a concoction of goop to form a watertight bond between the pipe and the Fernco. Is this goop approved under code by the AHJ, with the manufacturer stating its purpose as such? :laughing::no:

If you go and develop this as a product, gaining all of the approvals under code and with the AHJ's. I'll call you a brilliant plumber, having made a product that saves a lot of time, and the customer's money. Until then all you have done is something I see done by DIYers and Hacks, something I cut out and replace because I am neither of those things.

The citing of CIPP relining products to justify your use doesn't fly. The CIPP meet a number of ASTM specifications, and have gained the approvals under code and many AHJ's. They have done what you didn't do! :yes:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Damn you Red, and your fact based response. :thumbup:


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

http://www.fernco.com/plumbing/flexible-couplings/plastic-socket-couplings 

Won't fit cast but thinking it may fit copper dwv.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

gear junkie said:


> http://www.fernco.com/plumbing/flexible-couplings/plastic-socket-couplings
> 
> Won't fit cast but thinking it may fit copper dwv.


No Plastic Hubs have a larger OD than Copper...
In addition we have to use a shielded coupling to avoid misalignments...
Still he split it lengthwise to place it over the pipe without cutting the pipe...


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Alteration of fitting is not approved in any code I am aware of.

In Illinois you must use a shielded coupling and approved raised bead adapter when transitioning, Plain Fernco's are not approved within a foundation.

Tear it out and fix it right, with a code approved transition.

DUN.......


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Yea Kinda... :laughing:
> 
> The big difference I'd say is the way the Fernco is used in this application.
> Don't get me wrong I use Fernco's & No-Hubs in a variety of connections and transitions in *approved uses*....
> ...


I know I know, but dang you are sealing up a pin hole in a piece of 3 inch copper DWV. Not trying to plug a leak in the hoover damb. 

We all know a product like we are talking about will get approved, not on it's merits but because the company spent a fortune ramrodding it through the approval process. 

It will still be looked at as hack work even with a astm approval, just like sharkbites and propress. no matter how much better or worse it is than the original pipe


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

On second thought what needs to meet code? you can put anything you want on the outside of a pipe. you are not cutting the pipe or replacing it? is it illeagal to put hose clamps around a drain pipe. is it illegal to put silicone on a drain pipe or a rubber gasket for that matter. 

I could be wrong, I lost my code book not long after I stopped doing new construction.

after all these years this is what I want to look up.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Why Not? :laughing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkuReA-AGa8


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Up to 3 pages of talking about the do's and dont's of hack work. Cut the pipe, order a CK mission clamp, or the old school male/female adapter and just do the proper repair. I said it before, that hack fix would be ok for the night/ weekend, but that's it. Keep up the good work as usual Master Mark.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

saysflushable said:


> This stuff is funny, put a patch on the inside of a pipe and you are a great plumber and on the cutting edge. put a patch on the outside of a pipe and you are a hack.


 
yes it is kind of comical.....

you got a small leak dripping out of the bottom of a 3 inch copper pipe and you want to cut out literally half to all of the plumbing system in the ceiling to make the fix.....the "approved way" 

if you patch the pipe on the inside with a liner you are a genius and on the cutting edje of plumbing....
and if you do it on the outside you are a hack ....:blink:



The guy that said take a pair of tin snips and cut it out..
I still want to see that video on U-tube so I can learn how to do that....



I hope everyone learned a new trick from this thread....cause some day ---down the road ---on some dark stormy night--- you are gonna stumble into what I am talking abou...and you will probably say... thank you master mark..:laughing:


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## Nathan901 (Feb 11, 2012)

Pioneer of innovative mechanical pipe sealing solutions.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Nathan901 said:


> Pioneer of innovative mechanical pipe sealing solutions.


 
HEY , THANKS...for the compliment:thumbsup:

but in all honesty, its not my idea.... 
its a very very old idea that I just improved on ... 

I just broke out a whole bunch of *FREEZE CLAMPS* in my office that I have had around since the late 80s. I am getting ready for the next polar vortex and want to have a few on my truck.. 
I bought out the stock of plumbing company back in 1989 and got probably 100 of them in various sizes still laying around...got them dirt cheap...
..
They come in 1/2 3/4 and all the way up to 3 inch commercial band types with bolts and SS bands on them.....and you can use them on POTABLE water lines under pressure...:yes::yes:

You know, you use them to put on a galvanized water line with a pin hole leak in the run, or maybe a small long-ways freeze split that you can put this clamp on with the rubber seal....??? I used them all the time back when I was a kid repairing leaks in galvanized pipes... 

Maybe they are before your time... but surely some of you guys have had to have used them in the past on water lines under pressure to get yourself out of jams or you have run across them still attached to old galvanized lines?

Those clamps have been "*approved* " to make leak repairs on potable water and boiler lines since the 1920s...:yes::yes: 

I suppose if they are good enough for potable water under pressure they ought to work on a pin hole in dwv copperd rain line ....correct??? 

I just did basically the same thing with a fernco fitting

so would someone please explain the difference??


If I use a 3 inch *approved clamp* on the copper with a little silicone sealant, am ok..??

.but if I use a Fernco fitting and do the same exact thing, I am branded a hack


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## Nathan901 (Feb 11, 2012)

I've got SS hinge clamps up to 2" for emergencies. 

I've seen them under houses on old copper and galvy that look like they've been there for 20 years.

It's obviously not the best repair, but as stated through the back and forth posts, it will hold and will satisfy the cheap customer.

Sometimes you have to put down the code book, or at least look away lol


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Nathan901 said:


> I've got SS hinge clamps up to 2" for emergencies.
> 
> I've seen them under houses on old copper and galvy that look like they've been there for 20 years.
> 
> It's obviously not the best repair, but as stated through the back and forth posts, it will hold and will satisfy the cheap customer.


 
you do .....what you got to do......to win..


----------



## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

I'm still not sure using the silicone gasket and hose clamp is against code? Probebly cutting the fernco would be against code, so just use some rubber gasket material. 

Dang I feel like drilling a hole in my DWV and patching it just for the heck of it, HHHMMMMM it might only last 50 or 100 years I better not. Insert laughing face here


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## BC73RS (Jan 25, 2014)

Nathan901 said:


> Pioneer of innovative mechanical pipe sealing solutions.


Quote of the day, sorry I can't add to this but still a great thread to read.


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## 89plumbum (May 14, 2011)

Im not much of a betting man but,,, i'de bet everyone on here (including inspectors) have done some things (especially in service) that constitutes itself as hackish work. Mark is just transparent enough to not care what anyone thinks and just wants to talk plumbing.

Just my 2cents,,, proceed.


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## BC73RS (Jan 25, 2014)

Yup, I have to agree Mark is tranparent, it takes courage and honesty to let "them hang" then dare others to take a swing.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

The only thing transparent is the silicone being used for a half assed repair. Again that's a weekend fix, not permanent like stated before. We have professional licenses issue to us, perform professional repairs. If money is an issue talk to the owners about a payment plan in writing. I can't believe this is still a ongoing topic.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

So I went out to work today...
I'm usually off Saturday & Sunday but they were short handed so I said yes...

My first job was a Bradford White Water Heater with one of those ICON Gas Valves messing up... 

I remembered Master Mark saying, Sometimes those electrons get confused on the printed circuit board and they get all jumbled up... All you have to do is give it a whack with a pair of Channellock Pliers to "Reset It" and get it working again...

So I gave it a good just right thump...

Lo & Behold it fired right up nicey nice, 

I charged the customer just a few shekels for my time and was on my way in no time at all...

Next call was a leaking copper drain line right at a fitting...
Sure enough I pushed my thumb against the bottom of the pipe and the bottom was rotted out about as thick as tin foil the whole length of the pipe...

I remembered Master Mark saying, "Why make the job bigger than it has to be." So I cut a Fernco lengthwise gooped it up with RTV caulking gun tube that has been riding along on the van unused for years.... Then slapped it over the pipe and told the customer don't run water for 24 hours so this goop can cure...

I charged the customer just a few shekels for my time, the Fernco, the RTV, and was on my way in no time at all...

So there I was at noon, I had a couple of jobs done already that usually would have taken a good chunk of the day up, and had me somewhere between $1,000 & $2,000 Gross...

But I had a few shekels in my pocket, the customers were happy not having to pay out a lot of money... Why do I feel like a cheap whore? :laughing:


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

tinfoil thin the whole lenghth, I would have cut it out. but I hope when you do fast repairs say tightening a packing nut or pulling hair out of a lav waste you charge a fair rate for time. you should be making great money if the job is small or big


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

Truth be known every time I set a toilet with a wax ring or foam gasket I feel like a hack.

If a plumbing inspector or plumber thinks a wax ring and 2 bolts is any better or worse than a cut elastomeric coupling, silicone and hose clamps for making a seal against sewage getting into a house. I don't know what to tell you, 

if I had to put money on either not leaking eventually I would put my money on the patch.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Redwood said:


> So I went out to work today...
> I'm usually off Saturday & Sunday but they were short handed so I said yes...
> 
> My first job was a Bradford White Water Heater with one of those ICON Gas Valves messing up...
> ...


 

you are not a "cheap whore" Redwood,,, 
NEVER , EVER ...say that about yourself...big fella....:no:

In my opinion, 
..you got the work done in an efficient simple manner......
...you took care of a problem without making it into a larger problem just to line your pockets,,,......
...you did no harm to others who might need the money much , much worse than your boss does....... 
so you should feel good about yourself..
because you are a "good deed do-er" .


also instead of working all day long on Satruday, you 
probably got to go fishing for the afternoon...:thumbsup::thumbup:

(it brings joy to my heart to see that I am rubbing off on you):laughing::yes:


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

One of my great customers is someone who loves old apartment buildings. I am happy to check them out before he buys one. A recent one has 10's of $1000's in upcoming repairs but he bought it anyway. A bit rare down here to have a building heated with steam but this building has patched steam pipes everywhere. The old water heater that I warned him about failed within a month of him buying the building; so I was replacing that and noticed the steam pipes had a few new drips. Knowing good and well I will replace them eventually, I patched the drips with fernco's and made the owners rep very happy.

There is a place and time for hack repairs.

David


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

dhal22 said:


> One of my great customers is someone who loves old apartment buildings. I am happy to check them out before he buys one. A recent one has 10's of $1000's in upcoming repairs but he bought it anyway. A bit rare down here to have a building heated with steam but this building has patched steam pipes everywhere. The old water heater that I warned him about failed within a month of him buying the building; so I was replacing that and noticed the steam pipes had a few new drips. Knowing good and well I will replace them eventually, I patched the drips with fernco's and made the owners rep very happy. There is a place and time for hack repairs. David


. 

Good example, it's heating season, so I understand it's not feasible to do a shut down. That constitutes a TEMPORARY patch. Come summer it gets replaced.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

plumbdrum said:


> .
> 
> Good example, it's heating season, so I understand it's not feasible to do a shut down. That constitutes a TEMPORARY patch. Come summer it gets replaced.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


 
Oh PLEASE,,,,
you know they will never call you back out to make the repairs in the off season.... :no: 

those freeze clamps will 
have about 20 years of dust on them before they ever come up with the money to upgrade all the lines...

you better make a note on your calender to call them in the spring to remind them that it was just a TEMPORARY repair and you need to do the work right so you wont look or feel like a hack .....:thumbup::laughing:

cause they aint gonna call you about it..


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Master Mark said:


> Oh PLEASE,,,, you know they will never call you back out to make the repairs in the off season.... :no: those freeze clamps will have about 20 years of dust on them before they ever come up with the money to upgrade all the lines... you better make a note on your calender to call them in the spring to remind them that it was just a TEMPORARY repair and you need to do the work right so you wont look or feel like a hack .....:thumbup::laughing: cause they aint gonna call you about it..



Well my calendar is usually full with inspections, but if I was still in business I would repair it come summer time. Piece of cake.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

I've done the patch thing with rubber and clamps just temporary to hold till I can get back there to repair it correctly. But it's happened a few times where the customer cancels the full repair because the patch is holding just fine, even against me telling them it's only a temporary patch job. So in those times, the patch job can bite you in the azz.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

Now if anyone else sees it and knows you did it, you look like a hack because they don't know the full story.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> you are not a "cheap whore" Redwood,,,
> NEVER , EVER ...say that about yourself...big fella....:no:
> 
> In my opinion,
> ...


Not in this lifetime....:no:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Not in this lifetime....:no:


 
Hey...now.... now...big fella ...thats no way to be...:no:...

I have asked you for your advice and opinions about 
my internet + web design.... and I am not ashamed to admit it....

some day you will remember this thread and probably use this idea .......


so cant we all ......just get along???:notworthy::notworthy:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> Hey...now.... now...big fella ...thats no way to be...:no:...
> 
> I have asked you for your advice and opinions about
> my internet + web design.... and I am not ashamed to admit it....
> ...


After all these years you finally got someone to make you a good website and it's working just like I said it would...:blink:

We are getting along just fine...

I'm just saying I'll leave the hack fix to those Craigslist Guys, and I'll do the work in a manner that distinguishes me as a plumber...

There is a difference in quality and what you make on the job...


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> Oh PLEASE,,,,
> you know they will never call you back out to make the repairs in the off season.... :no:
> 
> those freeze clamps will
> ...


That's the beauty of plumbing, it will fail eventually. And this pipe is patched so any times it can't possibly last much longer.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

dhal22 said:


> That's the beauty of plumbing, it will fail eventually. And this pipe is patched so any times it can't possibly last much longer.


 Not if Master Mark is in the house. His patch jobs will never leak. Couple fernco' some high temp silicone, walla, fixed. Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

saysflushable said:


> This stuff is funny, put a patch on the inside of a pipe and you are a great plumber and on the cutting edge. put a patch on the outside of a pipe and you are a hack.


IMHO that epoxy liner BS is hackery at it's finest and I don't give a damn who this pisses off, especially doing the water pipe lining , nothing but hacks. Like Biz stated take a look at their warranty it's not worth a damn especially in a commercial setting.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

saysflushable said:


> Truth be known every time I set a toilet with a wax ring or foam gasket I feel like a hack.
> 
> If a plumbing inspector or plumber thinks a wax ring and 2 bolts is any better or worse than a cut elastomeric coupling, silicone and hose clamps for making a seal against sewage getting into a house. I don't know what to tell you,
> 
> if I had to put money on either not leaking eventually I would put my money on the patch.



Well the wax ring is a code approved method. We are not hacks, we are licensed professionals. Would you want your doctor to take short cuts??


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

GAN said:


> Well the wax ring is a code approved method. We are not hacks, we are licensed professionals. Would you want your doctor to take short cuts??


Oh Sure! As long as it's "Good 'Nuff".....:laughing::laughing:

And on someone else....


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

justme said:


> IMHO that epoxy liner BS is hackery at it's finest and I don't give a damn who this pisses off, especially doing the water pipe lining , nothing but hacks. Like Biz stated take a look at their warranty it's not worth a damn especially in a commercial setting.


 

They tried to get me to buy into that scam a long while back..... a dealership deal for about 7k..... 

 expoy liners in copper water lines being blown through the pipes with high pressure air system....instead of just re-pipeing the home

it was the rage in California for a while but I have have not heard much about it in a long time....

maybe they still do it, I dont know....

I would rather stick to my FERNCO clamps....:jester:.:laughing::laughing::thumbup:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

plumbdrum said:


> Not if Master Mark is in the house. His patch jobs will never leak. Couple fernco' some high temp silicone, walla, fixed. Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


 
Thanks for the vote of confidence...plumbdrum. 

and its so true,, my patch jobs have never leaked:laughing::laughing::thumbsup:


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## victoryplbaz (May 19, 2012)

What if the OP had said he did a temp patch on the drain and it was set to repipe a few days later. Then before he was to do it the customer calls. They want to hold up on repair right now due to holidays. Then when he follows up he finds out they sold the home. Is he still a hack?


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Oh Damn, time to replumb the entire dwv system.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

It's kinda funny but when I am looking at a copper drain leaking along the bottom 9 times out of 10 the entire bottom of the pipe is rotted out so I quote replacement...

If the customer questions the need for the job I just tell them to push their thumb against the bottom of the pipe...

I'll stop replacing wherever their thumb doesn't punch a hole in the tin foil bottom of the pipe...


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> Oh Damn, time to replumb the entire dwv system.





thats a good one you got going there... looks like more than a pin hole to me... I dont know if a fernco clamp would suffice on one that far away from the brass... I would like to see the pics of your final repair ...are you planning on cutting out the whole system or just going back to where the copper looks good and clamp onto it???.


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

It was solid other than the few inches you see. I replaced the section between the 2 hubs, about 12"


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> It was solid other than the few inches you see. I replaced the section between the 2 hubs, about 12"


 oh sweet mother of mergatroid. don't say you put the elastomeric couplings over the brass hubs. the entire system will fail and the house will collapse.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

UN1TED-WE-PLUMB said:


> It was solid other than the few inches you see. I replaced the section between the 2 hubs, about 12"



did you take pictures of the final product or are you too ashamed to post them on this site????:laughing::laughing:


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## Hoosier Plumber (Nov 28, 2013)

Had some copper drain problems last week. I'd rather not talk about how much of a PITA they were. Lots of bad words were used in the repair process. :laughing:

All of the drain were in the ceiling over the customers nicely carpeted and furnished basement. :blink:

It rapidly turned into the job from hell. For some unknown reason one of the pvc joints leaked after being installed. Can't say when the last time was when that happened, but can say it was a looooong time ago. 

This customers house dislikes me and makes everything harder when I'm there. Hell I tripped going up the stairs on the last trip out. :laughing:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*The house sold last week*



Hoosier Plumber said:


> Had some copper drain problems last week. I'd rather not talk about how much of a PITA they were. Lots of bad words were used in the repair process. :laughing:
> 
> All of the drain were in the ceiling over the customers nicely carpeted and furnished basement. :blink:
> 
> ...




Yes, you got the house from hell to work on and that crap splatters everywhere ..... no matter how many drop cloths you lay down....



On a side note.... the home that I was talking about when this thread started has now been sold down the road to the next person and my customer have moved on to a new home

.....My name is on the water heater and furnace so I dont know wether I will be tangling with more pin holes in the future or not.... I am half way tempted to go back out to that house from hell and remove my stickers so they dont call me:blink:


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## johnh (Jul 6, 2013)

may I suggest the following? LOL

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Nashua-T...-Fusing-Silicone-Tape-Black-1208952/100206050


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## UN1TED-WE-PLUMB (Oct 3, 2012)

Master Mark said:


> did you take pictures of the final product or are you too ashamed to post them on this site????:laughing::laughing:


Didn't take any. No shame here.. I don't use cut ferncos and silicone.. What could seriously be more shameful than that?


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Keep up the good work, Mark.


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

The cut fernco will hold just fine without the silicone. The silicone just makes it seem worse for some reason. Lol

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

jmc12185 said:


> The cut fernco will hold just fine without the silicone. The silicone just makes it seem worse for some reason. Lol
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


Really? How does it seal when it has been slit lengthwise to place it over a pipe?


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## jmc12185 (Aug 27, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Really? How does it seal when it has been slit lengthwise to place it over a pipe?


 I'm saying as a temporary fix. I don't see the need for silicone.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Really? How does it seal when it has been slit lengthwise to place it over a pipe?


redwood, surely you understand that you put the cut slit on the *top side* of the 3 inch fitting far away from the problem leak and clamp it down...gravity will most likely do the rest but 
the silicone just bonds everything together better....

.I suppose if you feel silicone is too hackish, you could use recto-seal instead if that makes you feel more like a plumber


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> redwood, surely you understand that you put the cut slit on the *top side* of the 3 inch fitting far away from the problem leak and clamp it down...gravity will most likely do the rest but
> the silicone just bonds everything together better....
> 
> .I suppose if you feel silicone is too hackish, you could use recto-seal instead if that makes you feel more like a plumber


Oh I understand completely...
The seal is made under the hose clamps and when you slit the fernco lengthwise you just ruined it...

Master Mark, Surely you understand that....

You do realize duct tape probably would have been a better temporary hack repair... :laughing::whistling2:


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## gusty60 (Oct 21, 2008)

:laughing:Just use mighty putty!:laughing:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Oh I understand completely...
> The seal is made under the hose clamps and when you slit the fernco lengthwise you just ruined it...
> 
> Master Mark, Surely you understand that....
> ...



Dear Redwood... no I dont realize that duct tape would have done the same thing...... Please Define temporary. ... I think we have already gone over this earlier in the thread.....

yes I agree that duct tape would be a very short term HACK fix...a few days ...if that is all that you are willing to do for the customer...so why not electrical tape??

I consider this Modified fernco clamp as more of a a* long term-- temporary solution* to their problems.....Sometimes all you can do is give the customer a good amount of time to get their finances in order ...I would rather attempt to give them some breathing room---YEARS of breathing room if necessary.... I KNOW that my repair will last decades....or until another pin hole develops down the road... (yes we have gone over this before)

My solution is a "good enough" repair to get them out of a jam for the time being....making them fully aware that they are on borrowed time..Sometimes "good enough" is all that you can do..

Now Redwood, if you dont like using the silicone because it makes you feel too hackish, you could always use a half a can of* Recto-seal* on that pipe and then clamp down that "Modified Fernco fitting" . Either way its gonna stay sealed probably for a good 10 ++ years or more.

so honestly, isnt that good enough for you??

.


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

wow. almost everyone on this site is a plumbing god. they have never had to do anything just to limp a customer by. it is sickening to read all of the bickering. i guess it would have been better to repipe and not get paid. at least all of the "do it right" plumbers would be happy. i shake my head and get depressed reading half of these posts. to all of you plumbing gods, get a go pro camera and post your full work day. i bet we can find all kinds of things to laugh or talk about.:yes:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

SchmitzPlumbing said:


> wow. almost everyone on this site is a plumbing god. they have never had to do anything just to limp a customer by. it is sickening to read all of the bickering. i guess it would have been better to repipe and not get paid. at least all of the "do it right" plumbers would be happy. i shake my head and get depressed reading half of these posts. to all of you plumbing gods, get a go pro camera and post your full work day. i bet we can find all kinds of things to laugh or talk about.:yes:



thanks.... I see myself as only a "plumbing apostle" ....

me and Redwood are just jousting with each other with
pieces of Armaflex rubber pipe......basically just passing the time..
...not really bickering.. he is actually a pretty smart fellow

So mostly its all in fun...I am pretty sure he knows it too.......

but I admit that I have lost it on occasion with others and probably 
should not have....


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Master Mark said:


> Dear Redwood... no I dont realize that duct tape would have done the same thing...... Please Define temporary. ... I think we have already gone over this earlier in the thread.....
> 
> yes I agree that duct tape would be a very short term HACK fix...a few days ...if that is all that you are willing to do for the customer...so why not electrical tape??
> 
> ...


To me any hack fix is only long enough for you to get in and do the job right...

It's all or nothing baby!

No half azzed measures...


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## SchmitzPlumbing (May 5, 2014)

as an owner, i have done this repair. if the customer doesnt have a pot to piss in, they can scrape up $100, maybe. it might take 3 months to get paid though. if i was an employee on commission, definitely a full repipe. i get my commission and check. who cares if the boss ever gets paid from this loser. it depends on who's shoes you are wearing. when you are writing the checks, then you can have an opinion. if you want to get paid, you better make the right decision. dont do a job for someone that cant afford to pay you. and definitely dont upsell.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

It's funny but earlier this week I did a job on a root filled sewer line. The line was SDR-35 and the customer had a party in their yard where they had rented a tent. When they set the tent up a stake had been driven through the sewer. their sewer had clogged during the party.

They hired someone who had "fixed" the line by slitting a fernco...

Soon afterwards they had a massive root clog which I had cut out...
We camera inspected the line and saw the roots had come in through holes at the top and bottom of the pipe. We dug the line, cut the line, added an outside cleanout at the spot and used 1 shielded fernco to tie in our repair...

I guess it wasn't good enough...
So we did it right...


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Redwood said:


> It's funny but earlier this week I did a job on a root filled sewer line. The line was SDR-35 and the customer had a party in their yard where they had rented a tent. When they set the tent up a stake had been driven through the sewer. their sewer had clogged during the party. They hired someone who had "fixed" the line by slitting a fernco... Soon afterwards they had a massive root clog which I had cut out... We camera inspected the line and saw the roots had come in through holes at the top and bottom of the pipe. We dug the line, cut the line, added an outside cleanout at the spot and used 1 shielded fernco to tie in our repair... I guess it wasn't good enough... So we did it right...


Slit a Fernco??
Didn't they know the correct hack way was to slit a piece of sdr-35 and wrap the slitted pipe over the hole with some blue glue for good measure?

Sheesh, if they couldn't open the slit pipe over it, they could've at least used a half section of sdr-35, some blue glue and some Fernco clamps. lol


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ChrisConnor said:


> Slit a Fernco??
> Didn't they know the correct hack way was to slit a piece of sdr-35 and wrap the slitted pipe over the hole with some blue glue for good measure?
> 
> Sheesh, if they couldn't open the slit pipe over it, they could've at least used a half section of sdr-35, some blue glue and some Fernco clamps. lol


In the good ol days you could "make an outside cleanout" by hammering a hole in the top of the pipe, then when you were done snaking the line you lay half a side of a coffee can over the hole and cover it back up.... :thumbup:


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> but I admit that I have lost it on occasion with others and probably
> should not have....



:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:that is so funny,you SNAPPED on someone here in computerland!!!!!it is to get caught up in the drama,esp when whacking gas valves with hammers and channellocks,to funny:thumbsup:


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Redwood said:


> In the good ol days you could "make an outside cleanout" by hammering a hole in the top of the pipe, then when you were done snaking the line you lay half a side of a coffee can over the hole and cover it back up.... :thumbup:


i always used an old falls city beer can that was rolling around in the back of my truck to cover the hole,come to think of it,still do on occasion:thumbup::thumbup::whistling2::whistling2::whistling2::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

Why work for people who can't afford you anyways? If all they can afford is a hack fix that's what hack handymen are for.


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Unclog1776 said:


> Why work for people who can't afford you anyways? If all they can afford is a hack fix that's what hack handymen are for.


I know where original poster is coming from,sometimes little money is better than no money


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sparky said:


> I know where original poster is coming from,sometimes little money is better than no money


Yea... I get it...

When you don't have enough money to buy a 6-pack of Keystone or, Bud Lite Lime....

Truth be told I'd shoot myself first....:whistling2:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Redwood said:


> Yea... I get it...
> 
> When you don't have enough money to buy a 6-pack of Keystone or, Bud Lite Lime....
> 
> Truth be told I'd shoot myself first....:whistling2:


 
That is the exact reason I dont work on modular homes or in Trailer parks..... they dont have a dime and its usually all held together with bailing wire and duct tape
under the units.....

 If I had to be crawling around under a trailer filled with cat-piss and racoon droppings just to get some yay-hoos water back on tonight I think I could unload on myself


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Redwood said:


> Yea... I get it...
> 
> When you don't have enough money to buy a 6-pack of Keystone or, Bud Lite Lime....
> 
> Truth be told I'd shoot myself first....:whistling2:


oh no,the old falls city beer before they went bankrupt was the "elixer of life":thumbup:,or otherwise known as the "nector of the gods":thumbup:,when you pop the top on a cold falls city can,that blue smoke would rise out of the can,and if you popped enough of the cans that blue smoke make you blind runnin!!!!!!

oh and the long neck returnable bottles were definetly one of the finer things to have in life:yes::yes::thumbup::thumbsup::devil::devil:


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## dhal22 (Jul 30, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> That is the exact reason I dont work on modular homes or in Trailer parks..... they dont have a dime and its usually all held together with bailing wire and duct tape
> under the units.....
> 
> If I had to be crawling around under a trailer filled with cat-piss and racoon droppings just to get some yay-hoos water back on tonight I think I could unload on myself


Enough phone calls and any good plumber can cherry pick. A call from a gated community customer wins over a call from a mobile home community customer. We're so busy right now we have pulled all advertising coupons, pay per click, etc.


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## JPPlumber (Jul 30, 2014)

I've done a few "hack" repairs along the way but I always have to make sure the customer knows it is only temporary. If they have low funds do you think they want an inspector coming by to make sure it was done proper? The problem down the road with the split fernco is if and when the line stops up again, in an overhead and under static pressure and the excessive "sillycone" fails....by that time the house has been sold to some other unsuspecting buyer and another plumber comes out and says "obviously a DIYer" because none of us would be bold enough to leave a sticker on it.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

JPPlumber said:


> I've done a few "hack" repairs along the way but I always have to make sure the customer knows it is only temporary. If they have low funds do you think they want an inspector coming by to make sure it was done proper? The problem down the road with the split fernco is if and when the line stops up again, in an overhead and under static pressure and the excessive "sillycone" fails....by that time the house has been sold to some other unsuspecting buyer and another plumber comes out and says "obviously a DIYer" because none of us would be bold enough to leave a sticker on it.



Good points.... the odds of a second floor stoppage is minimal and rare with 3 inch copper,,but I suppose that it could happen...
A temporary repair *is what it is* and comes with *NO WARRANTY * expressed or implied...

I did have this one time back probably around 1993 from a temporary repair,,, the customer let it slide and never got back to me... but after about 10 years I get a call back about a leak.. Thinking it was another .. pin hole.. I go there to find that one of the fernco fittings was leaking on the bottom..... 

after a long while the rubber neoprene actually begins to shrink and all that was necessary was to tighten down the band clamps...apparently the silicone did not hold either..

I hold him it was time to make that *real repair *but have never heard a word out of them..maybe they did it themselves or maybe they used another plumber....that was about 2003. 

I did not care or have any desire to do the job anyway because a 3 inch hole through a joyst for copper is much smaller than what is necessary for 3 inch pvc... we would have had to round out probably 10 joysts to get the new pipe to work in that area.....very labor intence and the home owner was a cheap pain in the ass anyway:blink:


and yes my sticker is on their water heater
.


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

Hoosier Plumber said:


> Had some copper drain problems last week. I'd rather not talk about how much of a PITA they were. Lots of bad words were used in the repair process. :laughing:
> 
> All of the drain were in the ceiling over the customers nicely carpeted and furnished basement. :blink:
> 
> ...


Confucius say always better to trip going up steps
Then to fall coming down steps LOL :whistling2:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> Enough phone calls and any good plumber can cherry pick. A call from a gated community customer wins over a call from a mobile home community customer. We're so busy right now we have pulled all advertising coupons, pay per click, etc.



yes that is a very good thing,,, 
when you dont have to dance with every pig that knocks on your door .... because you are too busy dancing with the beauty queens..

but the rich ones cans stiff you too......


I am planning on dumping Angies List real soon too,,.


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

My advertising cost is less than 200/month. That includes website service and a coupon in the local paper for camera inspections. Common guys I'm just a "snake boy" as some douch on here once put it. If you guys are licensed plumbers and having to work for broke people and crawl under trailers you are either doing something wrong or you need to move


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

dhal22 said:


> Enough phone calls and any good plumber can cherry pick. A call from a gated community customer wins over a call from a mobile home community customer. We're so busy right now we have pulled all advertising coupons, pay per click, etc.


Mobile home dwellers are often easier to deal with than the folks with "money".


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

ChrisConnor said:


> Mobile home dwellers are often easier to deal with than the folks with "money".


I don't know what kind of mobile home parks you have in your area but the people who live in mine are 100% responsible for my no trailer policy. My minimum charge is more than their monthly rent


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

Unclog1776 said:


> I don't know what kind of mobile home parks you have in your area but the people who live in mine are 100% responsible for my no trailer policy. My minimum charge is more than their monthly rent


Nice ones, some even have mag wheels and redwood decks with dish network and shingle roofs.


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

ChrisConnor said:


> Nice ones, some even have mag wheels and redwood decks with dish network and shingle roofs.


When I was stationed in San Diego I remember seeing parks like that. I probably would work on those. Around here they live up to every stereotype there is when it comes to trailer parks. I'll work on their mains as in manhole to manhole work because the park pays for that. Any work on the trailer itself is a no go.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Unclog1776 said:


> I don't know what kind of mobile home parks you have in your area but the people who live in mine are 100% responsible for my no trailer policy. My minimum charge is more than their monthly rent


Like This....
Tin House on Wheels prices start at about $120K on up...

The Low Rent Trailer parks have pretty much all been turned into Condo's, Shopping Centers, and Industrial Parks...


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## JPPlumber (Jul 30, 2014)

Nice "trailer" park Redwood. From the looks of it and from a distance you would think those are homes on slab, and that is the end result of good planning from the community leaders trying to maintain property values of the surrounding homes. We still have some parks around here that need to be torn down. Where those people should go I don't know. 120K is slightly higher than the value of my 1945 built home on a 3/4 acre lot. 
Regional value differences aside and back to "hack" repairs. Often times we can make assumptions about what the home owner can afford to do, whether we are right or wrong in our assumptions and make a personal sympathetic choice and in the end maybe not the professional choice. Often times the professional choice doesn't look like a practical choice when what is required is to tear into the structure of the home. Or the customer is perhaps elderly or on hard times and "helping them out" could bring good will/future business from their family and friends. Sometimes the best business choice is to just walk away and leave it to the next guy. It is way to easy to judge from a distance the choices others are making.


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## CaptainBob (Jan 3, 2011)

You guys must be talking about stuff like this....

Just gave the customer a bid on repiping it


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

CaptainBob said:


> You guys must be talking about stuff like this....
> 
> Just gave the customer a bid on repiping it



Why are you taking my old customers from me? I got some good money for that repair


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

CaptainBob said:


> You guys must be talking about stuff like this....
> 
> Just gave the customer a bid on repiping it




Now That looks like some fine workmanship with the fernco fittings

that guy improvised and adapted.... 

I think one or two are enough but 4 clamps in less that 3 feet is serious overkill......:thumbsup:

was the pipe leaking through some new pinholes under that duct tape reapir???


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*You fixed this back in 1993 and now we got to do it again*



Master Mark said:


> Good points.... the odds of a second floor stoppage is minimal and rare with 3 inch copper,,but I suppose that it could happen...
> A temporary repair *is what it is* and comes with *NO WARRANTY * expressed or implied...
> 
> I did have this one time back probably around 1993 from a temporary repair,,, the customer let it slide and never got back to me... but after about 10 years I get a call back about a leak.. Thinking it was another .. pin hole.. I go there to find that one of the fernco fittings was leaking on the bottom.....
> ...




Believe it or not I finally get a call from this house with the same people still living in the place.. They see a wet spot in the ceiling and feel that I am to blame for the leak because just a short while back I made a "temporary repair" for them... and now its leaking.......

They were supposed to drop the ceiling for more access to install pvc way back in 1993 but never did....... they thought they were gonna sell the house and move on but never did.... 

I had to refresh their memories how long ago this temp repair was done and they just could not believe it was way back then.... 

now they only got me to pin the blame on.........

tearing out a whole copper plumbing system above someones living and dining room and going down the wall to the crawl space is gonna be tough...

I have not got a clue how much to charge them for something like that...:blink:
...


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## Fatpat (Nov 1, 2015)

They are to lazy to get there **** together and fix there waste, but the can remember you did a reapair 25 years ago!


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Master Mark said:


> Believe it or not I finally get a call from this house with the same people still living in the place.. They see a wet spot in the ceiling and feel that I am to blame for the leak because just a short while back I made a "temporary repair" for them... and now its leaking.......
> 
> They were supposed to drop the ceiling for more access to install pvc way back in 1993 but never did....... they thought they were gonna sell the house and move on but never did....
> 
> ...


That's why I always dated my work on the jobsite.. our memory gets shorter as the years goes by..


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Some 20 years ago, I remember opening a wall once and right on the 4" service weight vent was a card glued to it with the name of the installer (a recently retired inspector) and the date (late 1945).


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Fatpat said:


> They are to lazy to get there **** together and fix there waste, but the can remember you did a reapair 25 years ago!


actually, I had to remind them when the work was done , they thought it had been in the last decade or less.... My customer files on computer only go back to 1998.. and this went down long before then.
.

You can always show me the invoice if you still have it in your records but I am not gonna go digging through my old stuff.....
,
the warranty on all repair work is just one year anyway and you got by for close to 25

.


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## CM Plumber (Jul 15, 2016)

a lot of our homes built in OC from the 50's and 60's are needing similar repiping. same homes are starting to need more water heater repair work as well


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## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

I keep invoices for a long time, but im not digging through them..if you want to blame me for something, you better have my invoice showing the work done that you now claim is my fault...or it didnt happen...


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> I keep invoices for a long time, but im not digging through them..if you want to blame me for something, you better have my invoice showing the work done that you now claim is my fault...or it didnt happen...




I totally agree with you...show me your receipt. I am not digging through 10 years of crap just to appease someone.

I get lots of folks getting pissed off at me for work we never did. I have plastered my sticker in probably 200,000 homes and we get folks claiming we installed a whirlpool or sears heater for them a short while back and now some home inspector claims its not got good draft on it or not up to code.. 

I tell them just because you see my name on your heater, it only means I was in your house sometime in the last 40 years..... 
Please .show me your receipt 




On the original subject I got a 3 inch copper stack to change out in an old apartment building sometime over the next month Not looking forward to it at all.


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

CM Plumber said:


> a lot of our homes built in OC from the 50's and 60's are needing similar repiping. same homes are starting to need more spam work as well



Do you really think this is what Google's billion dollar algorithm is looking for? 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

Once you see your site disappear from the search results you will realize it's 10x more difficult to remove a link than it is to post it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

plumberkc said:


> CM Plumber said:
> 
> 
> > a lot of our homes built in OC from the 50's and 60's are needing similar repiping. same homes are starting to need more spam work as well
> ...



So is this guy purposely spamming us, or this is a side effect of some marketing, etc?


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

This is a sad excuse for marketing. Something that may have had a slight benefit 10 years ago, however today this type of link building is more likely to hurt your ranking. 

Guy has 7 post and has dropped links to his site twice. It's probably not even the business owner, just somebody charging the business owner for links. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CM Plumber (Jul 15, 2016)

I'm sorry if I offended anyone guys. Can you tell me what I did? Or didn't do? Plumberkc why can't I mention my site if I'm not allowed?


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## plumberkc (Jun 23, 2011)

CM Plumber said:


> I'm sorry if I offended anyone guys. Can you tell me what I did? Or didn't do? Plumberkc why can't I mention my site if I'm not allowed?




You were clearly dropping text with the sole purpose of getting a link for the phrase "water heater repair". Your text didn't fit into the conversation at all. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gargalaxy (Aug 14, 2013)

CM Plumber said:


> a lot of our homes built in OC from the 50's and 60's are needing similar repiping. same homes are starting to need more viagra work as well


I like this one better lol, thanks KC for the heads up.


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## CM Plumber (Jul 15, 2016)

sorry man. i felt it did. i feel like there are patterns in our repair work. i'll try and be more careful/respectful with future comments. if i sent you viagra would that help? :jester:


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*I just did another temporary patch job today....*

I revived this thread because I Have not run into this for a year or two now but this 3 inch copper was up in a finished ceiling and others had already taken out sections of the line and replaced it with pvc...... 

of course the home owner re-drywalled the ceiling in this office space and now had to cu tit out again... for the third time

I told him that this was only gonna be a temporary patch and he will probably have to drop the ceiling about 9 inches sometime this spring and basically tear out everything and re-plumb the upstairs bathrooms in pvc...

I have not got a price together for him yet to do this 

this is in a pretty mean spot...... 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/EPRA3wYW3lCgrdk32

https://photos.app.goo.gl/c4a4H5yAJNL4kar03

https://photos.app.goo.gl/EVM8uJ9xRxQaykMo2

https://photos.app.goo.gl/pOASwUMoeMqTX0wl2



again, this is a temporary repair


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## geofd (Feb 17, 2018)

*Rottingcopper*

What material are the hangers made of?????


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

geofd said:


> What material are the hangers made of?????



??? you mean the Neoprene fernco fittings


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## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

I've seen that this summer a 3" rotted copper pipe. The last home owner put plumber's putty in the hole and dry walled and sold the house. The new homeowner wanted it fixed but he didn't want to really pay me because it was not his "problem". 

I had to run for 3 days to get paid. I was getting dressed to go knock on his door at 9pm when his girlfriend finally showed up with the cash.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Tango said:


> I've seen that this summer a 3" rotted copper pipe. The last home owner put plumber's putty in the hole and dry walled and sold the house. The new homeowner wanted it fixed but he didn't want to really pay me because it was not his "problem".
> 
> I had to run for 3 days to get paid. I was getting dressed to go knock on his door at 9pm when his girlfriend finally showed up with the cash.



the last one I fought about 3 years ago went that way too... 

I changed out some rotten lines and was planning on doing more of them but the homeowner said forget it and just finished the drywall off and sold the house to the next person to deal with...

he moved on and bought a nicer house..... 

I figure the old house will be calling me some day soon with issues....



.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> I revived this thread because I Have not run into this for a year or two now but this 3 inch copper was up in a finished ceiling and others had already taken out sections of the line and replaced it with pvc......
> 
> of course the home owner re-drywalled the ceiling in this office space and now had to cu tit out again... for the third time
> 
> ...


Not enough room for two nohubs? Replacing copper is tricky for sure with the small fittings. We had a kitchen line last week, thankfully it was a simple fix.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

OpenSights said:


> Not enough room for two nohubs? Replacing copper is tricky for sure with the small fittings. We had a kitchen line last week, thankfully it was a simple fix.



I put the second no hub on the pipe because it was probably gonna start leaking there next... and the customer asked me to just go ahead and do it while I was up on the ladder..........

you got any good idea what re-piping a mess like that would be worth to do???

they can drop the ceiling at a good expence, then it can be done much more easlily....

I am thinking 5k...


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

One full bath? Add $1k, especially if inspected. We’ve trimmed 1/4” off of each fitting and inspector passed us. Altering a fitting is bad juju, but outside of the capital we have understanding inspectors.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Full tear out, if not asking for issues. PVC will alter space needs.

Seriously having that area f the floor system cut out and properly headered off at the same time, seriously weakened structure.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*got me another mess today*

mean ass spot above the furnace...gonna have to cut the back of the vanity out and re-run the lav drain in the vanity across about 4 foot then drop down into the basement away from the top of the furnace....... cant reach any of this


told the guy between 500 and 1000 to get the job done 
https://photos.app.goo.gl/2ikkwPzUFQ9Tyqof2


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Flex seal and done.

Copper drainage is a money maker. My neighbor had a house fire and wanted it plumbed original with new dwv in copper. I heard it added $20k to the bill and she changed her mind.

Pulled a stool today for a remodel with copper drainage. Tested the drop with a screwdriver gently. Felt ok.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

OpenSights said:


> Flex seal and done.
> 
> Copper drainage is a money maker. My neighbor had a house fire and wanted it plumbed original with new dwv in copper. I heard it added $20k to the bill and she changed her mind.
> 
> Pulled a stool today for a remodel with copper drainage. Tested the drop with a screwdriver gently. Felt ok.


I have said it before , but its gonna get ugly, very ugly--- soon when all this copper starts to rot out sometime in the next 10 years... the chlorine in the city water and all the chemicals are eating away at it.....

I dont care to deal with drain lines in second story ceilings 

I think I would rather retire than fool with it....


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> I have said it before , but its gonna get ugly, very ugly--- soon when all this copper starts to rot out sometime in the next 10 years... the chlorine in the city water and all the chemicals are eating away at it.....
> 
> I dont care to deal with drain lines in second story ceilings
> 
> I think I would rather retire than fool with it....


The biggest issue I see with copper drainage comes from the gases escaping the septic. Rots out the top of laterals making an open troth. I hate those jobs. Kinda makes you wish they made street wyes.


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## GAN (Jul 10, 2012)

Copper failure is not uncommon. What I had to deal with more is cast iron failure. Either a vertical crack or a horizontal section failing with sewer gas eating the top out.


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## JohnnieSqueeze (Mar 23, 2016)

OpenSights said:


> The biggest issue I see with copper drainage comes from the gases escaping the septic. Rots out the top of laterals making an open troth. I hate those jobs. Kinda makes you wish they made street wyes.




yup


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## JohnnieSqueeze (Mar 23, 2016)

i love recycling it though! really heavy with all the swill especially the kitchen branches


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Master Mark said:


> I have said it before , but its gonna get ugly, very ugly--- soon when all this copper starts to rot out sometime in the next 10 years... the chlorine in the city water and all the chemicals are eating away at it.....
> 
> I dont care to deal with drain lines in second story ceilings
> 
> I think I would rather retire than fool with it....


To bring this dead thread back to life.... 

a neighbor that shares our driveway rings my door bell
sunday night at about 7 to tell me he has a bad leak coming down from a shower drain in the
second floor bathroom.... 
So, I go over there and he has already ripped out all the drywall in a lower bathroom 
and the copper drain line from a shower base has a one inch by one inch piece just
missing and gone just above the copper trap ... We cut out the trap and install new pvc with a fernco attached
about 2 foot away.... and of course, the rest of the copper plumbing all crammed up there is ready to blow at any time...

They just moved in back in October and now he has a mess on his hands... he is pretty pissed off about it all too
because of other things the original owner did not reveal that have gone bad... 
He wants to remodel both bathrooms upstairs and I tell him he better figure on cutting out 
all that 3 inch copper and drop the ceilings on the first floor or he 
is gonna regret it some day..... 
I told him that I hate giving him news like this and being a bummer but he better
get prices to re-do everything or he might suffer some day....

The plumbers back in the mid 60s who soldered 3 inch brass double wyes and other brass fittings up in joysts were talented.....
He plans on getting some quotes for both bathrooms and new pvc pipes throughout....

I am wondering what this will cost him ... 
being a neighbor I would rather stand back and watch....


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## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Mark said:


> To bring this dead thread back to life....
> 
> a neighbor that shares our driveway rings my door bell
> sunday night at about 7 to tell me he has a bad leak coming down from a shower drain in the
> ...


Cha-Ching there you go mark,moneymaker right in your back door,can't pass it by


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

I’ve done a ton of work for my neighbor’s. I charge them material (marked up of course) and don’t charge for time. In return we get to use their cabin a few times a year. I’d give them the price through the books, what you’d charge someone across town. Give them a “neighbor” rate.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

sparky said:


> Cha-Ching there you go mark,moneymaker right in your back door,can't pass it by


I got all the work I need. I told him to get prices and ideas from other plumbers on how to approach
this abortion and what they would charge... I know what has to be done but am curious as to what 
others would do...

they will have to drop the ceiling a foot and then totally re-pipe 2 bathrooms upstairs and its
not gonna be a cakewalk....


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Glad I don’t have to deal with that **** anymore!


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

OpenSights said:


> Glad I don’t have to deal with that **** anymore!


So are you saying that you have retired or just turn this stuff down??


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> So are you saying that you have retired or just turn this stuff down??


I Don’t “change the plumbing system“ anymore. Copper to PVC DWV is a b!tch!


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## skoronesa (Oct 27, 2015)

OpenSights said:


> I Don’t “change the plumbing system“ anymore. Copper to PVC DWV is a b!tch!


What? Just use a shielded coupling designed for it or just put a regular fernco or no-hub connector on the fitting instead of the pipe.


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## The cable guy (Oct 31, 2020)

They make no hubs sized for copper. Been a minute but I believe 1 1/2 copper is the same of as 1 1/4 pvc.

Not very many crawls and no basements down here. If I'm breaking out a slab or opening a wall I'm taking out all the copper and coming directly off the cast with pvc. Up there I would play it by ear.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

OpenSights said:


> I Don’t “change the plumbing system“ anymore. Copper to PVC DWV is a b!tch!


I totally agree with you on that... 
I dont even know where I would begin to tear out a second floor system
going to 2 bathrooms and re-pipe the whole mess in pvc... 
I guess Wear a haz mat suit and get going with a sawzall
and tell the people to go live at a Holiday Inn for a week....I guess


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> I totally agree with you on that...
> I dont even know where I would begin to tear out a second floor system
> going to 2 bathrooms and re-pipe the whole mess in pvc...
> I guess Wear a haz mat suit and get going with a sawzall
> and tell the people to go live at a Holiday Inn for a week....I guess


Lol! I can’t tell you how many I’ve done. And, yes, I’ve modified a fitting or three. PITFA, every single one.


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