# Pex



## ILPlumber

I don't use the stuff but, this puzzles me. Who would want to lose all that wall space of the mounted manifolds and associated spaghetti?

How does one run a whole house on a 3/4" pex line when the effective opening of the fittings is closer to 1/2" if I was guessing?

In my particular state I believe a tub/shower valve would require a 3/4" line to it due to fitting restriction. 

I understand why you guys use it, and I'm sure it prolly gives the water a better taste but, I just don't care for it.

I don't see why you need all those valves when you have stops as well as main valves at each bathroom group. Or worse case, shut the whole house down.


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## Marlin

Pex doesn't have to be run as a manifold system. We run pex just like you would run copper. I don't know about your flow restriction point. Obviously it's true but we haven't had and problems as of yet.


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## 22rifle

A restriction at a single point is not as big of an issue as we tend to think it is. In other words, a 100' long 3/4" pipe that has 4 restrictions to 1/2" will still carry much more column than a 100' long 1/2" pipe.


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## Herk

The manifold can be put somewhere that it isn't in the way. I'm old-fashioned - in my house it's in the utility room next to the water heater and sump, along with a floor drain.

Mine's been in for quite a while, and it's polybutylene. I don't have pressure-balancing faucets and it's virtually impossible to get scalded or frozen when water is used somewhere else - you never even notice.

Almost two years ago, I did a bathroom remodel. I removed the tub since I didn't really need one on that floor and put a storage closet in its place. Easy enough to do: I just turned off the valves and cut off the pipes.

Here, we don't normally have valves on tubs and showers, so, with the manifold you can shut them off to work on them without disturbing the rest of the system.

I've done repairs a couple of times on a house where the lime sediment from the water heater backs up into the water lines. I can shut off the toilet line that always gets affected, open up the end of it under the toilet and put a piece over into a bucket, then turn the valve on and off to flush the line. It's happened a couple of times and the HO won't spend the money for an expansion tank on the WH, or even a check valve.

Those are just some of the reasons a manifold might be handy. Some houses have such a big basement that the space taken by the manifold doesn't amount to a hill of beans.


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## Ron

The ports that pass through the valves can be 3/8 or smaller, the fitting for pex pipe does not effects the flow at all.


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## user4

My worry would not be restriction of flow, it would be putting a fitting in a position where it is vulnerable to the most corrosive thing on Earth, water in motion. I've seen copper water lines that were not reamed get eaten away inside the fitting from this, what is stopping the same thing from happening to PEX fittings?


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## Ron

KTS next time to see this, post a picture, I myself have never seen this reaction, never really looked for it, keep in mind the brass pex fittings are thicker then your type L copper, and there brass, if that makes any difference at all. Guess time will tell, If i'm still around to know the truth, and not 6' under when the truth is revieled.


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## GrumpyPlumber

Herk said:


> The manifold can be put somewhere that it isn't in the way. I'm old-fashioned - in my house it's in the utility room next to the water heater and sump, along with a floor drain.


*Nuttin' like a good old fashioned PEX installation...:laughing::laughing:*


*Sorry, couldn't resist.*


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## user4

Ron The Plumber said:


> KTS next time to see this, post a picture, I myself have never seen this reaction, never really looked for it, keep in mind the brass pex fittings are thicker then your type L copper, and there brass, if that makes any difference at all. Guess time will tell, If i'm still around to know the truth, and not 6' under when the truth is revieled.


It's called impingement if you want to try doing a search for it.

There are many grades of brass and brass alloys, some of them are no better in durability than zinc. Please keep in mind, I have never seen or held a PEX fitting, so I am not passing any judgment on the quality of the fittings, merely pointing out that whenever you put a restriction on flowing water it starts to tumble, and eat away at the point of restriction from the tumbling action. Picture the Grand Canyon, it was formed in this very way.


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## Ron

Turbulence in the pipe, is this what your talking about, don't you think even if one fails to ream the pipe, that to produce a smooth bore that the rough edge that the water flows across will wear it down at the point only, or take a smooth bore pipe, reamed, is there still turbulence at the 90 and tees as water flows around them? Not saying this is not a factor in failure of a fitting, but of all the years I've made repairs on copper pipe, I have not seen any pinhole leaks in a fitting, yes in the pipe before or after a fitting, but not a fitting, when I find a fitting leak, it's cause of a bad solder joint. I wish I had a testing facility to take pipe and fitting to run a constant flow of water 50psi to 60psi through them give or take billions of gallons of water to see a failure take place.


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## user4

Ron The Plumber said:


> Turbulence in the pipe, is this what your talking about, don't you think even if one fails to ream the pipe, that to produce a smooth bore that the rough edge that the water flows across will wear it down at the point only, or take a smooth bore pipe, reamed, is there still turbulence at the 90 and tees as water flows around them? Not saying this is not a factor in failure of a fitting, but of all the years I've made repairs on copper pipe, I have not seen any pinhole leaks in a fitting, yes in the pipe before or after a fitting, but not a fitting, when I find a fitting leak, it's cause of a bad solder joint. I wish I had a testing facility to take pipe and fitting to run a constant flow of water 50psi to 60psi through them give or take billions of gallons of water to see a failure take place.


I have unsweat joints and the fitting is fine, the top of the pipe is gone, in a v shaped pattern.


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## ILPlumber

I have replaced 2" copper 90's that were between a boiler and holding tank. The circ pump was oversized. They were wore out on the ouside of the radius as well as thinning of the pipe on the 90 outlet.

I find it hard to believe a restrictive fitting will not affect flow. I would like to see a gpm test to prove this. Our code requires gross oversizing due to this restriction.

The pex fittings I have used on hydronics are compression. 

You guys ever have issues with punctures of the exposed pex due to dog chewing or kids messing around? I don't know just how tough this stuff is.

Killer, 
speaking to the point you made. I agree. I wonder why not stainless fittings?


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## Ron

By the time the water flow hits any valve in the system, angle stops, faucets, there is so many sharp, rough edge corners water need to flow across/over, if there was a problem to show these would have proven prove bass will not hold up, we would know it by know. IMO I don't see problems.


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## user4

ILPlumber said:


> I find it hard to believe a restrictive fitting will not affect flow. I would like to see a gpm test to prove this. Our code requires gross oversizing due to this restriction.


And that is based on piping systems designed to have zero restrictions when properly installed, PEX is a system that has a restriction at every joint. I have to wonder how much actual installation testing was done on this stuff before allowing it to be sold.


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## gear junkie

When I install pex, I try when ever possible to run the line in the wall with no joints. I try to put expansion joints in where ever possible. Pex and copper are not the same and should be run diiferently imo. You can run it the same but as previously said, you have a potential for leaks and volume drop by doing so. This is where the manifold system really shines, less joints behind enclosed walls. 

Pex is popular in my area for a different reason, copper theft. It's just a diifernt system to install and should be treated as such.


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## user4

gear junkie said:


> Pex is popular in my area for a different reason, copper theft. It's just a diifernt system to install and should be treated as such.


I'm gonna quit this thread, the stuff isn't even legal here so I have no real business commenting on it. When we need an alternative to copper we use galvanized.


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## Herk

Grumpyplumber said:


> *Nuttin' like a good old fashioned PEX installation*


Like I said, it's polybutylene - and that's ancient! :laughing:

When I started plumbing houses, I tried to bring the main water line up in a utility room, where you might also find the water heater, a floor drain, and perhaps a furnace. Keeping it all in a serviceable area seemed like a good idea. I hate crawling under a set of stairs in a split entry to get at the main valve or moving beds and stored stuff out of the way to get to one in the wall or a closet. 

So, it just seems natural to me to put the PEX manifold in there, too. Want to drain the system to close the house down for winter? Why have the manifold across the house in a hallway?


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## GrumpyPlumber

Killertoiletspider said:


> I'm gonna quit this thread, the stuff isn't even legal here so I have no real business commenting on it. When we need an alternative to copper we use galvanized.


*Aw come on, be a sport & stick around...next topic: "Approved garden hose applications for residential water mains"*


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## GrumpyPlumber

Herk said:


> Like I said, it's polybutylene - and that's ancient! :laughing:
> 
> When I started plumbing houses, I tried to bring the main water line up in a utility room, where you might also find the water heater, a floor drain, and perhaps a furnace. Keeping it all in a serviceable area seemed like a good idea. I hate crawling under a set of stairs in a split entry to get at the main valve or moving beds and stored stuff out of the way to get to one in the wall or a closet.
> 
> So, it just seems natural to me to put the PEX manifold in there, too. Want to drain the system to close the house down for winter? Why have the manifold across the house in a hallway?


*I fully agree...just hadda make a jab over the "old fashioned PEX":laughing:*


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## "DAPlumber" 101

There is only one thing I can say about pex, it's






. It has it's uses, but not for new installs and repipe's. It just make's me laugh when I do see them.






Where is the plumbing trade going when people put in pipe that Stevie Wonder can install. I'll tell you it's going down the


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## uaplumber

First of all "DAPlumber" 101, Welcome to the forum.

I would love it if pex went the way of the Dodo. It would be great to do a house in copper which I believe is the best way. However as a contractor that does mostly new construction I can say without any doubt, 99% of all home builders would drop dead from shock if I were to qoute the job with copper. That being said, I have faith that someday I may be able to covince someone. That is when a plumber can be forever proud of his water lines.


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## Ron

"DAPlumber" 101 said:


> There is only one thing I can say about pex, it's
> View attachment 170
> . It has it's uses, but not for new installs and repipe's. It just make's me laugh when I do see them.
> View attachment 171
> Where is the plumbing trade going when people put in pipe that Stevie Wonder can install. I'll tell you it's going down the
> View attachment 172



Welcome to the forum DAPlumber.

We all have our opinion on pex, I use it and will continue to use it, now how about a intro from you. :thumbsup:


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## "DAPlumber" 101

I can see from the point of a contractor to keep price's competitive. Homebuilder's don't care as long as they can build the house on the cheap and still over charge the customer. I apologize if I came off insulting, I just still have yet to see any pex jobs that actually look skilled. I also think it threaten's our trade because of the appearance.


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## Plumberman

On new build and even re-pipes if its bid or the HO wants a few quotes if you quote copper and the other guys quote PEX you will loose everytime. Its about staying competitive, if I had the choice I would ALWAYS run copper but its not realistic these days when people are all looking for the easier softer way.


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## "DAPlumber" 101

Why not cpvc? It's quick and still look's skilled after it is installed, that is if you are good at installing it.


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## Plumberman

Ill run CPVC if thats what the HO wants. You can make PEX look good as well, with the nail clamps they have and the plastic bends for going down walls. When we run it we use straight runs and not the roll.


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## "DAPlumber" 101

I agree, if pex is what the homewner want's that's what they get. Can you post pics of a neat pex job?


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## Plumberman

The next one we do I will post. Havent takin pictures of any here lately.


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## gear junkie

"DAPlumber" 101 said:


> Why not cpvc? It's quick and still look's skilled after it is installed, that is if you are good at installing it.


It becomes brittle with age and I've seen fitting break for no reason. I will never install cpvc. Does pex look as good as copper? Of course not but it's functional. If the difficulty of installation was an indication of quality, we would all be running galvanized water lines.


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## user4

gear junkie said:


> If the difficulty of installation was an indication of quality, we would all be running galvanized water lines.


Galvanized isn't bad compared to wiping lead joints on lead water lines, those kinda suck and you tend to burn yourself a lot.


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## ILPlumber

Most guys wouldn't even know where to start on that Killer. I'm sposed to do what with a candle


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## user4

ILPlumber said:


> Most guys wouldn't even know where to start on that Killer. I'm sposed to do what with a candle


I had an apprentice that always wondered why a carried a two inch ladle in my toolbag.


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## Marlin

uaplumber said:


> First of all "DAPlumber" 101, Welcome to the forum.
> 
> I would love it if pex went the way of the Dodo. It would be great to do a house in copper which I believe is the best way. However as a contractor that does mostly new construction I can say without any doubt, 99% of all home builders would drop dead from shock if I were to qoute the job with copper. That being said, I have faith that someday I may be able to covince someone. That is when a plumber can be forever proud of his water lines.


We do almost all copper for supply lines, we only use Pex for heat. You're right, you step back and look at your work with copper and it's something to be proud of with nice straight lines, good looking bends, clean wiped joints, etc. 
Then you step back and look at a Pex installation. It's never straight no matter how much you strap it. You can do it every 16" but it expands so much when it gets hot that it will look like a snake. It just looks like any Joe Schmo could have done it. Then you look at a Pex job by Hank the Handyman and suddenly you are proud of your pex installation. It's never going to look as nice as copper but a hack job is still recognizable as a hack job. The unfortunate part is it isn't intimidating to hacks like copper is and invites more hacks to do it.


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## 22rifle

Marlin said:


> The unfortunate part is it isn't intimidating to hacks like copper is and invites more hacks to do it.


*NOTE: The following is strictly to address the aesthetics issue and the "PEX is hack friendly" issue. I mention performance, quality, etc. but that is not the focus of my post. If don't care if you disagree with me on the quality and perfomance issues. I do care if you disagree with me on the bigger picture that I am trying to address. * 

Those hacks were using CPVC before anyways so I don't see this as an issue.

BTW, do you guys realize that these same arguments were used to protest the move from knob and tube wiring to our current wiring system?

Those of us who are craftsmen are so oriented around that perfect looking installation that we miss the forest for the trees. I ain't knocking craftsmanship. It is what we should all strive for. It's why, when piping a boiler, if I see one pipe not perfectly aligned, I will unsweat whatever I need to until I can replace whichever pipe was not the right length. It's why I do my plumbing with a torpedo level in my hand. I do not use the torpedo to check grade. That is done with tape measures and mental calculations. But I do it because I am obsessed with perfection. Many people think I am crazy. Maybe I am, but that is who I am and I make no apologies for it.

But that very mentality can keep us so focused on a perfect looking install that we fail to do what is in the customer's best interest. In my case, I have come to believe that PEX is in the customer's best interest. If I was given 5 million dollars to build my own home, and told whatever is left over will be lost to me forever, I would choose PEX. You may disagree and that is fine. 

The only right way to look at this issue is "I need to install a water distribution system for the customer. Which system will give them the best hydraulic performance, the best delivered water quality, and the best value when it comes to longevity." I happen to believe that a PEX system is the answer to that question for most applications. Again, you may disagree and that is fine. But I do not think it is fine if you disagree with the criteria I laid out. Anything less than that criteria means you are focussed on YOUR needs rather than on your customer's needs. 

No hack will ever install a PEX system anywhere close to what I install. Not in performance; not in aesthetics. I just wrapped up a job for a GC. (As in, his own home.) He has used another plumber until now. His comments were along the lines of "Wow. I have never seen PEX installed like this. You use less fittings than anyone else and it looks way better than anyone else's work." I use bend supports, I use pipe insulators on every sinle wood penetration, I use Sioux Chief USBs, etc. I look at the big picture and design and install for maximum perfomance in every way possible. 

Sure, I will always prefer (as far as work goes) to solder copper. It meets my need to do perfection. But there is more to this than my needs.


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## uaplumber

Well said:thumbsup:


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## "DAPlumber" 101

I think it is more of a pride thing. We can't protect our job's if it is dumbed down. I still have yet to see an impressive pex job. :no:


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## para1

I agree:jester:


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## para1

para1 said:


> I agree:jester:


 I know, I know A sanitary cross is not CODE in Chicago!:laughing:


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## user4

para1 said:


> I know, I know A sanitary cross is not CODE in Chicago!:laughing:


Actually it is.

I would never install back to back fixtures with one, but you can.


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## ILPlumber

A CO in the stack is a good idea if you do use a double san tee. If pex is soooo great why have copper stub-outs. I'd want my beautiful pex out where everyone could see it. Just kiddin.


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## user4

ILPlumber said:


> A CO in the stack is a good idea if you do use a double san tee.


That is exactly why we don't use them, our customers do not want to see a CO cover under their $8,000.00 console table.


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## service guy

cpvc is utter crap imo, it gets brittle and shatters. I prefer pex any day.

cpvc...:shudders::thumbdown:


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## Redwood

*Friction loss*

Friction loss is what it is all about.
The 2" long fitting even though it is a smaller dia than the tube actually has very little friction loss. If you look at friction loss tables they list the loss per 100' of material. The short distance makes that loss negligable.

I favor plumbing Pex similar to copper with mini manifolds at individual bathroom groups. This makes recirculation loops possible.


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## Protech

I’ve replaced over 100 leaking copper fittings. The pin holes went thru the fitting it self not the pipe. Some of these connections were reamed but most weren’t’. As far as the turbulent flow thru the pex fittings, I think it will be an issue one day in the distant future. The wall thickness on the brass pex fittings is usually at least 3 times thicker than copper though. I have jobs that are 10 years old that I went back to remodel recently and the fittings looked great. In fact, when I changed the water heater out I didn’t even install new fittings, I just spun the old female adapters off of the old nipples and spun them back onto the new heater nipples. No leaks. This is zurn stuff I’m talking about too.


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## Protech

_Killer, 
speaking to the point you made. I agree. I wonder why not stainless fittings?_

Flowguard of all people is putting out a stainless pex fitting line.


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## Marlin

It looks like the company I work at finally caved. They are now using pex for about half of rough in and remodel jobs. I do mostly commercial so I'm still using copper and cast iron though.


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## Proud Plumber

Copper does not survive here. We are pretty much the promise land for Pex and CPVC.


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## Ron

Copper is mostly used in commercial work here.


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## Proud Plumber

Ron The Plumber said:


> Copper is mostly used in commercial work here.


Do you guys have the copper erosion problems in your area as well? Here the "off the record only" experts tell us that it is due to our reverse osmosis city water plant. They claim that R.O. water is so pure that it causes an electrolysis and the copper rots from the inside out. I really don't understand how it would happen but it does, hence CPVC and pex have become our world.


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## Ron

Water in the PNW is good so there is really no problems, of course copper water pipes must be type L.


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## user4

Proud Plumber said:


> Do you guys have the copper erosion problems in your area as well? Here the "off the record only" experts tell us that it is due to our reverse osmosis city water plant. They claim that R.O. water is so pure that it causes an electrolysis and the copper rots from the inside out. I really don't understand how it would happen but it does, hence CPVC and pex have become our world.


Are you desalinating ocean water for your domestic supply?


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## Proud Plumber

Killertoiletspider said:


> Are you desalinating ocean water for your domestic supply?


They do not desalinate as in pulling water directly from the gulf. However we live coastal and groundwater here has a pretty high salt content (PPM) I know so little about municipal water. From what I do understand is the R.O. type of water system helps really knock the salt and sulfur contents down.


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## user4

Most RO systems turn out 99% pure water, which is more corrosive than muriatic acid, so I have to wonder exactly what your municipal water service is actually doing.


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## Proud Plumber

Killertoiletspider said:


> Most RO systems turn out 99% pure water, which is more corrosive than muriatic acid, so I have to wonder exactly what your municipal water service is actually doing.


I think his will get you through to explain a little. We are a fairly new community by most standards (roughly 40 years old).

http://www.capecoral.net/Government.../723/Default.aspx?rtvID=dnn_dnnRADTREEVIEW_TV

They went to an RO system in 1976. Then in the mid to late 80's homes with copper really started to have a hard time. From 92-95 I repiped houses regularly. I do not think anyone ever officially came out and said it was the R.O. water that caused it.


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## Protech

_Most RO systems turn out 99% pure water, which is more corrosive than muriatic acid, so I have to wonder exactly what your municipal water service is actually doing._

I'm going to go ahead and call BS on that. RO water is only mildly acidic. Usually about 6-6.5 PH. Nowhere near concentrated hydrochloric (muriatic) acid.


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## user4

Protech said:


> _Most RO systems turn out 99% pure water, which is more corrosive than muriatic acid, so I have to wonder exactly what your municipal water service is actually doing._
> 
> I'm going to go ahead and call BS on that. RO water is only mildly acidic. Usually about 6-6.5 PH. Nowhere near concentrated hydrochloric (muriatic) acid.


I wasn't referring to acidity, just making a comparison in corrosive ability. Send 99% pure water through 30' of PVC and it will taste like plastic when it comes out.


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## Protech

It's the lack of TDS that make things go south. RO water is a more effective solvent than water with higher TDS. The slightly low PH and lack of TDS does make it slightly corrosive, but I can assure you that HCL will dissolve a copper pipe at least 10 times faster than RO water.

I have an RO system in my utility room that runs thru about 40' of 3/8od pex in my attic to the dispenser in the kitchen. It does have a vary faint odor of plastic when it's been baking in my attic but once you flush the hot water out of the line it's completely odorless and tasteless. I think all water, RO or not, smells of plastic and/or solvent that comes out of pvc/cpvc lines. Most polymers including cpvc and pex, have additional ingredients besides the actual polymer to modify the characteristics of the end product. Solvents to alter elasticity and malleability, dyes, uv stabilizers and such. I'm not sure that RO water picks up any more of this stuff than other water types. I think that because RO is so pure it lacks any other tastes to cover up said chemicals. I don’t have anything to back that up though. 

Thoughts?


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## Kyle

usually dont have any " fittings " in hard spots with pex. part of the upsell of it is.. no fitting from point of source to point of use. and copper reacts with water alot differently then pex does. it still reacts.. but pex is more 'inert' in as compared to copper when talking about water. only 3/4 inlet i have seen on rough ins for tub and showers are for body spray or to shower heads. and like the other guy said you can do it just like copper in a main run with take off's sometimes better sometimes not. or remote headers where you run two three quater pipes to small headers over a bathroom type deal. it pretty much comes down to labour cost. and no fires lol. its still yet to be seen how well its goin to hold up over time. but Poly b seemed like such a good idea at the time too. and so did absestos lol.. we used that for everyhing back in the day.. maybe even pancake batter too.


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## Scott K

I honestly think that to install Pex properly requires some skill. It's not completely skill-less. And it looks great at the end as well. 

For example - minimizing the use of fittings - using 90 open bend supports instead of 90 degree fittings if at all possible - properly supporting the pipe and protecting it with IC clips when going through studs or talon or pc clips when running up or down or along something. Drilling all your holes nice and straight, and planning the routing for aesthetics as well as common sense. The key is to install as minimal or few fittings as possible as well supporting it in such a way that your clips & supports take the stress off of the joints to any fittings you do install. 

One of my favourite installations is to use the Rehau Everloc system with their Red & Blue UV Barrier pipe (No O2 barrier). It's really good looking pipe and the red & blue looks cool and makes identification so much easier. My favourite type of system is I believe what is called a satellite system where you run one size of pipe for most of the house, and throughout the run of pipe (er pipes - hot & cold) you have flow through manifolds, effectively making your installation like one big manifold in a sense, but you only put manifolds in areas where groups of bathrooms or fixtures are. Gives a good combination of reducing pipe installed in comparison to a home run system, but still excellent pressure distribution. 

Installing Pex properly will cost more money but if you protect the joints from stress & protect the pipe from abrasion then it should last a long time in theory.


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## PEXguru

*The Tales of PEX & Ugly truth*

Honestly, it's funny to read some posts about PEX here - not in a bad way, but still. I'll drop some info here for Wirsbo, Watts and Rehau - lovers and promoters.

1. It's not the PEX, it's you! 
Because Wirsbo was the first one, they taught everybody how to use the tool, etc. Now they sell the tubing for probably the same price as copper and make their customers believe there's nothing better. Well yeah, why would you go with PEX-b after you spent a $1000 for a Wirsbo tool kit - it'll make you look stupid!
Politics, politics... 

2. Brand is about marketing, not quality. 
The more advertisment, the higher the price. Don't believe me? Go to your local plumbing supply house and do the research. Starting from the most popular to least popular.

3. Does anyone read the specs?
I say, compare the data from manufacturers of all 3 types of pex (a,b,c) and you'll see that although B is leff flexible, it'll hold up to 30% more pressure. Have you heard of PEX-c (the Nibco one). Well, there's no PEX-c actually: due to the molecular structure, PEX-c is more like a regular PE(plastic) pipe, not PEX.

4. Heat lamp to fix the kink - good luck!
The oldest trick in the book - can your PEX kink be fixed with a heating lamp? Our's can - buy today!
Kink is a potential leak point. That's why we invented splicing, not heat lamps. So the next time you hear someone telling you about the ez-fix, ask the guy about the max. pressure a kink can hold.
P.S. don't tell me that splices in radiant heating systems restrict flow. if you don't know how to make one properly, just admit it.

5. Connections
*Copper crimp rings: Can't go wrong with the good ol' copper rings. These have been in use for decades and it's precisely the reason every supply house has them.
*Stainless Steel Clamps: IMO, the worst method invented. Not only the crimp is Not full circle, these tend to break and there's absolutely no way to know if you crimped it well. Ever gauged a cinch tool? -"Gauged it?" If you asked the same question, you should probably expect calls from your customers in the near future.
*Expansion method: like it because there's not flow restriction. don't like it because fittings cost crazy $.
* Compression: only use for PEX-AL-PEX (don't confuse with FostaPEX). You can use it with PEX too, but these are very pricy things.
*Push-Fit: love it, less the price of fittings  Just make sure to ream the pipe to avoid damaging the o-ring inside.
*Press: no comments here. It's too new.
Bottom line here: different types of PEX - different connections. Just don't get sucked into buying super advanced tubing just to find out you still need the $1000 tool and 1/2" elbows for like $10.00 each.

Remember the story about Onyx-like pipe made for Watts which was super-high-end-and-expensive and the moral of the story.


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## Tankless

Good lord...what a bunch of jibberish. Not full circle and tend to break...oh, and no way to know if it's crimpped properly...hmuph what an enlightning post. Will you ride alon in the truck so you can teach me more oh mighty pex guru?


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## user823

You didn't mention Viega Pureflow with stainless steel sleeves and bronze fittings?


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## Wethead

I still dont like it,


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## pzmember

Tankless said:


> Good lord...what a bunch of jibberish. Not full circle and tend to break...oh, and no way to know if it's crimpped properly...hmuph what an enlightning post. Will you ride alon in the truck so you can teach me more oh mighty pex guru?


 i was lookin for a gas station after the first several" pexguru" paragraphs, i don't know guys, ithink he's a rep for cash acme.


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## Wethead

PEX GURU.....where did you see that mj?


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## Protech

On the Grand Canyon thing. I believe the process is more chemical than 
mechanical. 

As far as the fitting erosion, I don't have an answer for you. I know numerous long term tests have being done on pex fittings and they showed no signs of erosion. Why, I have no idea.

Actually, I think the water eats away the area just past the restriction. like an undercut waterfall. Maybe by the time the water has started to tumble, it has already exited the fittings and instead rubs on the pex. Since plastic in more resistant to erosion, the effect on the fitting is minimal. All that came out of my imagination. I've got nothing to back it up.


Killertoiletspider said:


> It's called impingement if you want to try doing a search for it.
> 
> There are many grades of brass and brass alloys, some of them are no better in durability than zinc. Please keep in mind, I have never seen or held a PEX fitting, so I am not passing any judgment on the quality of the fittings, merely pointing out that whenever you put a restriction on flowing water it starts to tumble, and eat away at the point of restriction from the tumbling action. Picture the Grand Canyon, it was formed in this very way.


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## Tankless

well, my personal opinion on that is directly related to ...again my personal opinion of the best part about pex....that is less surface friction leading to the water traveling at a higher velocity through the piping. That said it would make sense to me that if there ever was to be an issue, it would be with respect to the fittings. I don't like the choke down at fittings with todays designs. The turbulance and noise IMO could be reduced with a sweep, versus a hard 90. 3/4 x 1/2 x 1/2 overall reduces volume versus all copper...but it's small to notice. I noticed it when I redid some of my piping on my own house. But I was looking for the hit and really testing that particular fitting. There is no doubt in my mind that if I run 20' of 1/2" in copper versus the same run in pes for hot water...the hot water arrives faster. I have seen this in many instances however it is noticable to customers on bath tubs.

As for "plumb"...lol....I have no problem sweeping 1/2 - 3/4 - or 1" instead of putting a fitting in. I also have no problem making something not totally square of ot saves me a 90 or two...not because of the work or costs but simply for functionality. One less fitting is that much more pressure.


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## ToUtahNow

Not a reflection on anyone but part of the problem with not worrying about your pipes being plumb is the same reason handymen can get away with the work they do. There was a time when you could walk on a job and tell who ran the pipe. Those days are quickly leaving us.

Mark


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## Tankless

I see the same thing with copper too. 10' suspended spand with no strapping...joints overloades with solder....fittings overheated...poor cleaning ...etc..etc...

The problem I am starting to see more of is the clients reactions to the time taken to do copper work. Just a week or two ago, I am in the mech room at an upscale home redoing everything and it was getting dark...round 5:30ish...lady comes out and says to me "did you know it was going to be this much work?" I replied sure did, that's why these are so expensive. She smiled and went about her thing. What I heard her say is "your taking too damn long, stop being a perfectionist and just get it done". It's a fine line to draw when they know my day rate is what it is. I am still learning the difference between the work I want to do, versus the work that I am being paid to do. This reminds me of a thread I wanted to start.


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## ToUtahNow

Part of the problem is when we were running iron, cast and copper you could not get away with a sloppy looking job. Today with all of the plastics it is more acceptable. That's not to say some of the new materials are not a better solution it is simply a reflection of the amount of skill it takes to install them.

Mark


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## PEXguru

Tankless said:


> Good lord...what a bunch of jibberish. Not full circle and tend to break...oh, and no way to know if it's crimpped properly...hmuph what an enlightning post. Will you ride alon in the truck so you can teach me more oh mighty pex guru?


How about we stick with what we know most about. You- tankless, me-PEX.


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## PEXguru

ironranger said:


> You didn't mention Viega Pureflow with stainless steel sleeves and bronze fittings?


Let's break it down: PEX-b pipe, rings and some freaky new fittings.
I have a better alternative: PEX-b pipe (any) , crimp rings and barb PEX fittings made of DZR brass. The same effect and performance with 1/4 of the price. 
A lot of plumbers buy this extremely overpriced and overpromoted stuff and feel good about it. Plain wrong, i say.


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## PEXguru

mjcoleman said:


> i was lookin for a gas station after the first several" pexguru" paragraphs, i don't know guys, ithink he's a rep for cash acme.


How about you join in for a 20% discount on the PEX and such. Seems like a lot of plumbers here are already doing the same:thumbup1:.
Hmm, i do see some competition from Viega and Wirsbo here, but no worries - we'll send'em a cheap and free tool to make them work us instead.


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## Protech

I don't think there is anything wrong with viega's stainless crimp sleeves nor upunor's (formerly wirsbo) cold expansion fittings. With time, they may prove to be better. Copper crimp rings and the standard zurn style(I forget the astm #) fittings are the oldest type and have proven themselves in my area. I know there have been isolated areas of the country that have had failures. My area was not one of them. I know of more than a hundred outfits that use the zurn style system and have never had a problem for far more than 10 years. It is for this reason that I stick with the zurn system. It's inexpensive and has a proven track record in central FL.



PEXguru said:


> Let's break it down: PEX-b pipe, rings and some freaky new fittings.
> I have a better alternative: PEX-b pipe (any) , crimp rings and barb PEX fittings made of DZR brass. The same effect and performance with 1/4 of the price.
> A lot of plumbers buy this extremely overpriced and overpromoted stuff and feel good about it. Plain wrong, i say.


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