# Critique this install based on your local Jurisdiction and GO!!?



## SSP (Dec 14, 2013)

So here is the background information required to string these blurry Blair Witch quality pictures together into the situation it is... 

This is a service call i was sent out to this week in Red Deer AB, even though we are primarily based out of Edmonton AB (approx 160km or 100miles difference for those not familiar with AB) as i recently did a restaurant renovation on a clients second restaurant south-end location which went a great as we resolved a multitude of nasty issues they had accumulated over several years.
BUT they were experiencing hot water problems at there North restaurant location which was previously renovated by my former "competition" :laughing: and ever since that renovation they have had nothing but issues and its no wonder why :whistling2: 



Apparently they desperately called in a few different local plumbing companies to come in and try and solve the hot water phantom as its had to cook food, be sanitary or pass any random health inspection without adequate hot water which in commercial restaurants is 140F min temp for commercial dishwashers in kitchen. The last of the bunch tried installing a re-circ pump and failed massively in my books... as it actually made problems worse. :laughing:

As you can see this whole new system is from 2011. :yes:

So here's the rundown of the hot water symptoms they had described;
-throughout day little to no hot water in half of restaurant, certain areas run cold or lukewarm

Poor Piping Practices or the 3Ps as i like to call it Piss Poor Plumbing ! I found at first glance ;

-As a rough estimate i feel the Hot water lines are Under-sized ... only 1".. Needs to serve commercial dishwasher >35' away, Glass washer >50' away, 8 Bathroom lavs <25' away, huge 3 bay custom stainless steel prep sink, Mop Sink, 2 Handwash sinks in kitchen, 2 prep-sinks in kitchen, bar sinks in each island bar etc. 

-Re-circulation pump is drawing off top of HWT with no Backflow protection or Thermal Shock allowances whatsoever even though this is a clear-cut closed system based on RPDCVA installed in meter room :whistling2: 

The best part of this pump is how it shoots straight into a damn 3/4 PEX 90 then curves wildly back up into the ceiling tiles to a distance of maybe 20' or so zip-tied to gas-line and ties into hot lines closest to ladies lounge washroom with of course you guessed it SHARK-BITE tee and valve :whistling2: 

-No pipe insulation anywhere at all on the retro-fitted piping work
-Redundant ball valve on cold inlet before recirc PP tee
-t&P valve discharge piping looks like old scrap piping from previous tank as it has half a union on it still and is nowhere near 6" from floor drain
-No water hammer arrestors or thermal shock allowances made
-Type M Copper pro-pressed with a used and badly dented scrap piece of pipe (I'm thinking maybe former T&P discharge but hack-artist who slapped re-circ on only had pex on truck :whistling2
- poor pump selection/sizing for application 
-Not a fan of the total lack of hangars or pipe support
-Mop Sink is a huge Chemical Cross-Connection hazard, as the employees leave the Hot water turned on continuously connected to soap/chemical dispensers that are always open 
-Every fixture in Kitchen had cheap arse AquaDynamic ball valves which are a HD brand and almost always leak within first 6 months Guranteed :yes:

I really should have taken more pictures as this place is right hacked together... 

Anywho what i determined to be the major contributing factor is the existing T&S Dish-Pit Pre-Rinse Faucet Assembly (thanks to a random post i read on the forums not too long ago ) was super old and had failed indefinitely as once i turned faucet off along with Mop-Sink and de-commissioned recirc the hot water returned to all areas of the restaurant and problem solved for now. 

Since Red Deer is a smaller city and my suppliers did not stock the required faucets i had recommended owner to Upgrade pre-rinse faucet and Mop sink Faucet to most recent code approved styles that contain all integral cross-connection checks, and add signage to be completely visible at all times while using faucets that indicate proper usage and maintenance plan

Here is the problem though; i was there and back and basically determined the source of all there issues all before noon 7a.m-12pm 3HR driving, i dropped off a couple gold nuggets that 95% of local plumbers didn't seem to have a clue about and provided solutions for him to take and hand over with his money to another plumber. It almost feels like i am shooting myself in the foot here but at the same time i really wouldn't want to touch anything without having a proper solution plan in place that i could propose like oh say re-vising re circulation pump to be piped and routed properly (Straight to Commercial Dishwasher, drawn off bottom of HWT with Drain, check valves, gauges, etc) provide thermal expansion allowances, re-size Hot Water distribution lines, Fibreglass Insulate the waterlines, and a multitude of other issues i would have to update as-well.

I am moving away from out-of town work like this so i am debating my best plan of action here whether sending a $500 consultation bill or an estimate for thousands more to GUARANTEE no future Hot Water problems? Restaurants like this hate to close down business for any given day as they lose anywhere from 10k-25k in daily revenue. What would you guys do? Go for broke or walk away and hope to not hear back?


----------



## justme (Jul 4, 2012)

Give them a proposal to go in there at night and run a whole new hot water system right beside the existing with the pipe properly sized,insulated, right recirc pump, I would also recommend putting spring checks on all faucets that have the ability to mix hot/cold water (those integral checks suck). After you have the new system in place go in one more night to make all final connections so you don't interfere with them making money during business hours , 1 more thing charge OT for all of it.


----------



## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

+1 start over.


----------



## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

justme said:


> Give them a proposal to go in there at night and run a whole new hot water system right beside the existing with the pipe properly sized,insulated, right recirc pump, I would also recommend putting spring checks on all faucets that have the ability to mix hot/cold water (those integral checks suck). After you have the new system in place go in one more night to make all final connections so you don't interfere with them making money during business hours , 1 more thing charge OT for all of it.


Or base your proposal on OT pricing for sure.


----------



## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

justme said:


> Give them a proposal to go in there at night and run a whole new hot water system right beside the existing with the pipe properly sized,insulated, right recirc pump, I would also recommend putting spring checks on all faucets that have the ability to mix hot/cold water (those integral checks suck). After you have the new system in place go in one more night to make all final connections so you don't interfere with them making money during business hours , 1 more thing charge OT for all of it.


This^^^my friend! My last outfit did so much more commercial work because of our willingness to work from closing to opening without disturbing water/sewer flow. Sometimes I would give the owner both prices to do work during normal hours and after hours so they could balance between lost revenue or spending more for after hours.


----------



## SSP (Dec 14, 2013)

Ya thanks for the replies and input fellas! I agree after hours is the way to go! 

We do tons and tons of after-hours work to accommodate scheduling for clients and other trades, but im finding its more appreciated / profitable by the restaurant industry.
We actually just completed a miracle last weekend replacing a couple hundred feet of old galvanized water-mains with all new 1-1/2 L Copper and had 75+ architects offices 20' below existing mains that couldn't be interrupted at all and from friday 5p.m to monday morning 8a.m we billed out 120+ Man hours with a 3 man crew And i really don't think they understood the magnitude of the scope completed because they are complaining about the high cost .. Of "two days" of work ... Even though on monday morning we had zero leaks, flushed and cleaned entire system, and they had fresh coffee and working ****ters all over


----------



## Mike Jessome (Aug 7, 2008)

The grundfos up-15 and I just stopped looking lol and the check valves look good on that recirc line oh wait where are they


----------



## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Figure the job for a total repipe all on overtime. Then double it because if the finish work looks this bad you will run into problems.


----------



## sparky (Jan 8, 2014)

SSP said:


> So here is the background information required to string these blurry Blair Witch quality pictures together into the situation it is...
> 
> This is a service call i was sent out to this week in Red Deer AB, even though we are primarily based out of Edmonton AB (approx 160km or 100miles difference for those not familiar with AB) as i recently did a restaurant renovation on a clients second restaurant south-end location which went a great as we resolved a multitude of nasty issues they had accumulated over several years.
> BUT they were experiencing hot water problems at there North restaurant location which was previously renovated by my former "competition" :laughing: and ever since that renovation they have had nothing but issues and its no wonder why :whistling2:
> ...


those chemical mixers on the mop sinks are a known cross connection,make sure you put check valves on both the hot and cold lines where this chemtrol units are located.also it could be that someone has tied a cold line directly into a hot line somewhere,i have ran into that before in restaurants where different plumbers have worked.the one inch line most definelty is to small but you can run a couple separate hot lines to the most starved units and leave the one inch line like it is.just a thought.


----------



## Caduceus (Mar 1, 2012)

Maybe I need to look at the photos better and I do understand that you have diagnosed the issue elsewhere, but it looks to me like there is no check valve on the recirc pump and it connects to the cold inlet of the tank. That could create the same scenario that was described when hot water faucets are opened.


----------



## Caduceus (Mar 1, 2012)

What....nothing?

I though somebody would say something to correct my observation.

Oh, well. Good luck.


----------



## PlumberShep (Sep 22, 2010)

Caduceus said:


> What....nothing?
> 
> I though somebody would say something to correct my observation.
> 
> Oh, well. Good luck.


Not to make light of the shoddy work, but has anyone tried shutting off the faucet at the mop sink with the Chem station? I see a hose splitter on the spout, and the hot side of the faucet appears to be open. Is the cold side open as well? Cant count the times I have come across mop/service sink faucets with no checks. Usually goes unnoticed as long as the faucet itself is used to shut the water off, but causes exactly what you've described when the faucet is left on, and a device after the spout is used to shut down.


----------



## PlumberShep (Sep 22, 2010)

Caduceus said:


> What....nothing?
> 
> I though somebody would say something to correct my observation.
> 
> Oh, well. Good luck.


Sorry Caduceus, I thought I was responding to the original poster, and just realized I was not.


----------



## SSP (Dec 14, 2013)

*ooops forgot to update*

Eliminated recirc from function. 

Added two spring checks on 3bay Pre-Wash T&S faucet on Hot and Cold. 

Mop sinks always get left on with the chemicals so i 
disconnect the rubber wye and add vaccum breakers.

This solved all the hot water issues for now, as they are still reviewing the estimate for approval to correct additional work necessary


----------



## tylerbee (Feb 14, 2014)

Thoroughly impressed with the amount of knowledge and analytical skills the service guys have. This is an interesting read, thanks for the updates.


----------

