# Hello all, I design & layout of fire sprinklers



## sprinklertech (Oct 24, 2010)

I hold a NICET IV certificate as a fire sprinkler system layout technician and currently hold licenses as MRE in Florida, Georgia, Alabama and both North and South Carolina. While now expired I have been the license holder in Arkansas, Ohio, Montana, Kansas, Ohio and Kentucky. 

Though technically I am not a plumbing contractor I think we are all aware the _International Building Code_ (_IBC_) added a requirement to provide _fire sprinklers_ in all new _residential_ homes and if you haven't seen fire sprinklers yet you can be sure you will.

I doubt you will see fire sprinkler companies competing for one and two family dwellings. We're not set up for it and it is something I don't want to deal with. 

The logical people to do this work is the plumbers like those registered here but I have some concerns that I would like to share.

Don't think you will be able to purchase sprinkler heads and put them wherever it looks "right" because it doesn't work that way. Any responsible plumber can do that work but there is a very definite learning curve and there is the liability issue.

What happens if it is installed wrong, is shown to be installed wrong and there is a fire that results in death? Right... you don't want to be there.

That said if plumbers are going to do the work it is in the best interests of the fire sprinkler industry that it is done the right way. We have an excellent record and everyone wants to see it continue.

I will help where I can, I know a lot about it and I am willing to share with anyone who wants to learn. All you need to do is ask.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

Residential fire sprinklers here are not covered under the plumbing code, but will be soon with a separate certification. I'm not sure if the mods would allow you to stay or not


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## sprinklertech (Oct 24, 2010)

plumbpro said:


> Residential fire sprinklers here are not covered under the plumbing code, but will be soon with a separate certification. I'm not sure if the mods would allow you to stay or not


If not they can boot me and no offense taken.

What have you heard on a separate cert?


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

sprinklertech said:


> If not they can boot me and no offense taken.
> 
> What have you heard on a separate cert?


Per the state inspector over my area: current licensed master plumbers will have to go to a class for certification to install sprinklers, this would not count for design and layout, only installation in single family residences. All the apprentices would learn about this in school and on the job and would be able to be certified after a masters lic is obtained. I think that design and layout would have to be done by an engineer and approved by the state. When this will all take effect is unknown by me personally.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

He's in the pipe trades. No problem here. We have plumbers, fitters, wholesalers, salesmen, and many other people in the pipe trades.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

WOW, just Wow!


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I agree with Matt

I don't think he is here to spam us or ask for advice on how to do fire sprinkler systems.

Who knowns maybe someone can learn from him.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Whatever?


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Choctaw said:


> WOW, just Wow!


Wow what?

This is NOT a plumbers only board. 

We will be doing this work soon if we are not already.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Matt said:


> Wow what?
> 
> This is NOT a plumbers only board.
> 
> We will be doing this work soon if we are not already.


Well, it does say Plumbing Professionals Only and until it's included under OUR trade then I don't consider it to be related to OUR field. And there was more to my statement than just this................


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

But it is plumbing professionals. I understand that it is pipe, but not plumbing. We can do either, but not vise-verse. Nathan may need to create a sprinkler topic.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

slickrick said:


> But it is plumbing professionals. I understand that it is pipe, but not plumbing. We can do either, but not vise-verse. Nathan may need to create a sprinkler topic.


I agree that a forum should be created for fire suppression systems.

They are required in all new apartment buildings here.

All I have done in relation to this line of work was the service line install from the main to the building, after that point the fire suppression company took it from there.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

here in florida even houses 3 storys must have sprinklers


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

house plumber said:


> here in florida even houses 3 storys must have sprinklers


I seen it installed on a 2 story residential here, it was a new home. In a house I trimmed out long time ago.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Sprinklerfitters are not plumbing professionals in my opinion, but my opinion and a buck will get ya a bag of tater chips....


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## luv2plumb (Apr 30, 2010)

plumbpro said:


> Per the state inspector over my area: current licensed master plumbers will have to go to a class for certification to install sprinklers, this would not count for design and layout, only installation in single family residences. All the apprentices would learn about this in school and on the job and would be able to be certified after a masters lic is obtained. I think that design and layout would have to be done by an engineer and approved by the state. When this will all take effect is unknown by me personally.


You are correct.....I hold TX master endorsement for residental sprinklers. We can install but not design; however they do show you how to size a system and how to lay-out the location of the heads.

The reason they are allowing plumbers to get the certification for residental is that it will be part of the potable water system and we all know you have to be a licensed plumber to install potable water in a house.


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## sprinklertech (Oct 24, 2010)

Airgap said:


> Sprinklerfitters are not plumbing professionals in my opinion, but my opinion and a buck will get ya a bag of tater chips....


You will get no argument from me, you are right. I wholeheartedly agree with you that Sprinkler fitters are not plumbing professionals.

But that being said if you haven't installed sprinklers yet you will in one and two family dwellings just wait until next year when the new IBC residential code kicks in at which time sprinklers in one and two family dwellings *will* become your work.

What we are used to looking at are separate systems but what we are going to see is more integrated systems where sprinklers are fed from the domestic water throughout the house in order to save money. Your work it will be and those that fail to embrace it you will lose out on more than just the sprinkler work. 

Failure to embrace the new work will end up costing you complete jobs.

A typical 3 br 2 ba house might have a dozen heads in it. Cost wise you are looking at $150 for heads, $200 in pipe and fittings and maybe another $200 in connection or riser material. $550 should cover material cost and as far as installation two plumbers should easly be able to rough it in in one day and maybe a half day for finish at the end of the job.

If you invoice for $60/hour with a 100% markup for material you can sell this job for $2,540 making what I consider to be a decent profit. Thing is you already have guys there and mobilization is already paid for.

If you don't want to do the work you can sub it to a sprinkler company but I can assure you we are going to charge a lot more than $2,540 for the job. We're going to want $500 a head which leaves you with a price of just under $6,000 putting you at an automatic $3,500 bidding disadvantage with someone who does the work. The competition will come along beating your price by $3k and you'll be wondering how they do it job after job after job.



plumbpro said:


> Per the state inspector over my area: current licensed master plumbers will have to go to a class for certification to install sprinklers, this would not count for design and layout, only installation in single family residences. All the apprentices would learn about this in school and on the job and would be able to be certified after a masters lic is obtained. I think that design and layout would have to be done by an engineer and approved by the state. When this will all take effect is unknown by me personally.


I noted you are in Arkansas and I am familiar with the requirements for sprinkler companies having held an Akansas license several years ago. 

What your state inspector told you seems reasonable and they are deviating from the normal sprinkler licensing requirements so 1)*professional plumbers* can do the work and 2)keep costs from blowing through the roof. Code and fire officals want to see fire sprinklers in one and two family dwellings but if costs go to $6,000 to $10,000 a house the state legislatures will end up telling the code and fire officials something different.

Right now Arkansas requires all sprinkler companies to have under full time employment an RME or "Responsible Managing Employee" in order to hold a license. You can see from the *regulations here (page 14 & 15)* an RME must have a NICET III or IV certificate (rare) or be a Professional Fire Protection Engineer with a minimum of 3 years training after graduation. These, FPE's, are nearly non-existent and if you did find one of the three in the state he's a six figure salary man that most plumbing companies couldn't afford. As far as the NICET III's and IV's I just checked the registry and there's a total of 22 living in Arkansas. Good luck trying to find one because I am sure they are all employed. If you did find one and you got a six or eight man shop we'd be a financial drain you wouldn't believe.

Arkansas knows they can't make plumbing companies go by the same standards as sprinker companies because there just aren't enough RME's to go around so they are creating a way around it... for one and two family dwellings.

The drawings will be prepared by a NICET certificate holder (professional engineers are not allowed to prepare fire sprinkler drawings in Arkansas) and you will be the one to pay him on a per job basis. If he doesn't have to visit the site, if you get him everything he needs in the way of a complete set of drawings, he can draw this up in a day for $400 to $500.

A regular sprinkler company can't afford to have their RME touch the drawing for less than $1,000. Right now I have a large industrial park, a hospital expansion and several grocery stores and I can't be pulled off to do a 12 head job unless the company makes a lot of money on the deal. I just don't have the time.

You will end up selling the sprinkler system for $3,000 where a regular sprinkler company will easily be double that.

I know a lot of you think it's not your work but it is going to be, it's coming so get ready.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

do you run that orange cpvc?


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

What plumber bills at $60.00 per hr.?


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

There is only 1 or 2 fire protection companies in AR to my knowledge and the only reason I had the info on residential sprinkler systems is because a customer asked me about it. I called the state inspector to ask and got the previous information I posted. As of 2 weeks ago, only a fire protection company can install a sprinkler system and would charge somewhere between 10 and 20k to do one in said house. I could run the line from the main to the house, because only a plumber is allowed to do this in AR. When plumbers can do residential sprinkler systems in AR, it will be considerably cheaper than a fire protection company.


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## sprinklertech (Oct 24, 2010)

house plumber said:


> do you run that orange cpvc?


Yes, for residential and light hazard occupancies.

It's called *BlazeMaster* and it is specifically UL Listed and Factory Mutual Approved for fire sprinkler applications. It is listed for underground service, is rated to 175 psi working pressure, it will not burn and for most homes you will be running mostly 3/4" and 1" pipe.

One of the things you will want to look for is anything you use be UL Listed for fire protection. Always bear in mind just because you see a UL on a piece of pipe doesn't mean you can use it in fire sprinkler systems. If it isn't the orange color it might be UL Listed but it isn't Listed for fire service.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

plumbpro said:


> There is only 1 or 2 fire protection companies in AR to my knowledge and the only reason I had the info on residential sprinkler systems is because a customer asked me about it. I called the state inspector to ask and got the previous information I posted. As of 2 weeks ago, only a fire protection company can install a sprinkler system and would charge somewhere between 10 and 20k to do one in said house. I could run the line from the main to the house, because only a plumber is allowed to do this in AR. When plumbers can do residential sprinkler systems in AR, it will be considerably cheaper than a fire protection company.


But, I highly doubt you'll be doing it for 60 bucks an hour.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Uponor is making pipe for residential sprinkler systems.


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## sprinklertech (Oct 24, 2010)

Choctaw said:


> Uponor is making pipe for residential sprinkler systems.


Thanks, I didn't know that existed.

But then I wouldn't because that's for 13D systems and we don't do those... As I have said these systems will be the work of the plumbing professionals. 

Looking through the material it seems everything is covered but I want to look at what they are using for hydraulically design. If it is what I think it is they made it pretty easy for you guys.

As far as $60 to $75/hr you'll get it if you are the only guy around that does it. Not everyone is going to do it. Some are going to say "it's sprinkler work and I ain't doing it" leaving a money making opportunity laying in the dirt. Well, it's plumbing work and I sure ain't doing it!

This is where you guys will beat the regular sprinkler companies. We'd never use pex, we aren't equipped for pex, we don't know pex and we're going to stick with what we know... BlazeMaster, steel pipe and sprinkler systems that are separate for domestic water. You got to remember this is a plumbing system and sprinkler fitters are not plumbers.

This is going to be kind of exciting for some of you.


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

sprinklertech said:


> Thanks, I didn't know that existed.
> 
> But then I wouldn't because that's for 13D systems and we don't do those... As I have said these systems will be the work of the plumbing professionals.
> 
> ...


Choctaw meant that $60 is low, not high


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## sprinklertech (Oct 24, 2010)

plumbpro said:


> Choctaw meant that $60 is low, not high


It all depends where you are. That is high in Mississippi and low in New York.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

plumbpro said:


> Choctaw meant that $60 is low, not high


I don't do new construction so forgive my ignorance. I'm thinking you're not going to be billing much higher than $60 - $75 doing new work. Not around here at least. 

$60 for service is just crazy talk.









Paul


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## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

plumbpro said:


> Choctaw meant that $60 is low, not high


Agreed, but in TX I believe that would be low, because the economy there is better than a lot of other places.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

"We're going to want $500 a head"

Your talking pre-recession commercial price with steel pipe and commercial heads.

That does apply to residential, if your company gets involved in residential , you will get no where near that,

Lets not forget IRC and others pressing to pass this have already been overridden by many jurisdictions that wont require sprinklers.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Other than rpz testing on fire systems, I know zip about them.

What is this going to mean for us guys that never pipe new houses? What are the maintenance issues we will see, if any?


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## plumber666 (Sep 19, 2010)

Up here in sunny ol' Canada fire sprinklers are done by sprinklerfitters, that includes residential stuff. They are not manditory everywhere, but many municipalities have bylaws that require them in all residences. No plumbers I know up here do sprinks. Is this a Professional General Pipefitters Forum? Oh yeah, no, it's a Professional Plumbers forum.


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## sprinklertech (Oct 24, 2010)

plumber666 said:


> Up here in sunny ol' Canada fire sprinklers are done by sprinklerfitters, that includes residential stuff. They are not manditory everywhere, but many municipalities have bylaws that require them in all residences. No plumbers I know up here do sprinks. Is this a Professional General Pipefitters Forum? Oh yeah, no, it's a Professional Plumbers forum.


I have been doing some research since Choctaw pointed out *Uponor* to me. Fact is I have spent more time on this than I should but I found it rather exciting.

To those that don't know there are three basic standards for sprinklers published by the National Fire Protection Association.

NFPA 13 "Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems" is the standard for most sprinklers installed in offices, hospitals, schools, stores and factories.

NFPA 13R "Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems in Residential Occupancies up to and Including Four Stories in Height" is what you find in apartments, condo's, hotels and motels.

NFPA 13 and 13R will remain the work of fire sprinkler companies and the work of sprinkler fitters.

But NFPA 13D "Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems in One- and Two-Family Dwellings and Manufactured Homes" is absolutely heading in the direction of being plumbers work. After reading the literature, seeing that Uponor will provide drawings and hydraulic calculations,* I am more convinced now than yesterday this will be the work of professional plumbers.
*
Many states are in the process of changing their existing laws to allow plumbers to install sprinklers in one and two family dwellings. This isn't going to happen today but it is an ongoing process and we have almost a year before the legislation kicks in. Now is the time to research.

Uponor appears to have the answers in that they offer a two day installation course that to cover everything has to be jammed packed with information. 

If you are a true pluming professional and want to get into this work you will want to attend the two day training and *purchase your copy* of NFPA #13D from the National Fire Protection Association. It's $33.30 to members and $37.00 to non-members. If you want to do the work you got to have this.

It only makes sense to have plumbers do this work because you are equipped to do it. 

Think about a large gas line construction company that installs 20 mile stretches of 16" high pressure welded steel gas line across the country. They obviously know what they are doing, no insult intended here, but most of you (me too) wouldn't be able to do this work. This is the same situation between traditional sprinkler companies and plumbers.... asking us to install a 3/4" house tap with meter and backflow to a house is something we are not equipped or know how to do. The way Uponor is connected to the residential plumbing takes this work out of the hands of the traditional sprinkler companies and puts it in yours.

State codes vary and take Georgia for example. The state fire marshal does not have jurisdiction on one and two family dwellings. They will not even come out to look. If you are a licensed plumber in Georgia you can install a residential system in Dawson, GA without anything... Dawson doesn't have a residential building code and the state doesn't have jurisdiction over one and two family dwellings.

Thinking about it if someone wanted a residential system put in their home I would do the work but there would be nobody to turn the drawing in to or pull a permit for anything but plumbing. Since fire sprinklers (in the traditional sense) is not plumbing I wouldn't even need a plumbing permit.

The point I am making is some of you, California for example, might have a tough time getting into the market while others can get in simply by being a licensed plumber, taking a two day course and start installing on Thursday. *But be sure to check the codes very carefully first.*


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## hydronicsbob (Oct 6, 2010)

*pex over the years*

its been funny to watch these pex salespeople coming in over the years to tout their "latest and greatest". First it was radiant, then someone figured out plumbing was a big market - wow - they were coming out of the woodwork and pushing their product. Now they are looking for some other way to keep their pex extruding machines busy with the fire sprinkler market.

Although in this market, they are being a lot more cautious and slow to promise the moon. The salesman are trying to find out about the jobs and get it to their in-house people who can either design it and get a local person to stamp it *or* help the local person (with the stamp) learn about their products and feel comfortable with these new residential systems.

It should be interesting in the near future.


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## Phat Cat (Apr 1, 2009)

Even though this may be an opportunity for plumbers, I don't believe sprinkler contractors will walk away from this opportunity either.

They will get up to speed very quickly and compete with plumbers for this new work.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Been doing sprinkler and fire protection for over 20 years and I got to say it is a very good market to be in.

Once homes are required by law to have systems installed there will be so much work that a sprinkler company would not have enough employees to do all the work.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

sprinklertech said:


> I hold a NICET IV certificate as a fire sprinkler system layout technician and currently hold licenses as MRE in Florida, Georgia, Alabama and both North and South Carolina. While now expired I have been the license holder in Arkansas, Ohio, Montana, Kansas, Ohio and Kentucky.
> 
> Though technically I am not a plumbing contractor I think we are all aware the _International Building Code_ (_IBC_) added a requirement to provide _fire sprinklers_ in all new _residential_ homes and if you haven't seen fire sprinklers yet you can be sure you will.
> 
> ...


 
I have a question for you, sir. I am interested in obtaining my Fire Contractor's License Class V in order to be able to test, certify and repair the backflow DC valves on the fire lines. Here is my question, will the class V license give me the ability to do that? A lady in state fire marshal's office said 'no'. Hydraulic calcs won't need to be re-calculated with me testing a backflow, will they? State law says pre-requisite for the class V license is state certified plumbing contractor's license (which I have). With my master plumbing license I should be able to sit for the fire contractor's licensing exam. 

There are a handful of municipalities in S. FL that won't let plumbers touch the fire DC backflows ( It is actually state statute). However, most towns, cities, etc. are not aware of law or just don't care if plumber tests a BF on a fire line.


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## luv2plumb (Apr 30, 2010)

Here is what passed in TX ​

S.B. 1410​ 

SECTION
A6.AASubchapter G, Chapter 1301, Occupations Code, is
amended by adding Section 1301.3565 to read as follows:
Sec.​​
A1301.3565.AAENDORSEMENT: MULTIPURPOSE RESIDENTIAL
FIRE PROTECTION SPRINKLER SPECIALIST. (a)​​
*AAA person may not engage*
*in the installation of a multipurpose residential fire protection*
*sprinkler system that uses a single piping system to provide*
*potable water for fire protection sprinklers and for domestic*
*plumbing fixtures and appliances unless the person:*
*(1)*​​
*AAis licensed under this chapter as a master plumber*
*or journeyman plumber; and*
*(2)*​​
*AAholds an endorsement issued under this section.*
(b)​​
AAThe board shall issue an endorsement as a multipurpose
residential fire protection sprinkler specialist to a person who:
(1)​​
AAholds the license described by Subsection (a);
(2)​​
AAapplies to the board on a form prescribed by the
board;
(3)​​
AApays a fee set by the board;
(4)​​
AApresents evidence satisfactory to the board of
successful completion of a training program approved by the board
that provides the training necessary for the proper installation of
a multipurpose residential fire protection sprinkler system as
required by the applicable codes and standards recognized by the
state; and
(5)​​
AApasses an examination required by the board.
(c)​​
AAAn endorsement issued under this section is valid until
the third anniversary of the date of issuance and may be renewed on
compliance with any requirements prescribed by board rule.
(d)​​
AAA person who holds an endorsement under this section may
represent to the public that the person is a multipurpose
residential fire protection sprinkler specialist.
(e)​​
AANotwithstanding any other law, a person who holds an
endorsement under this section is not required to hold a license or
registration issued by another state agency in order to install a
multipurpose residential fire protection sprinkler system.
(f)​​
AAA plumbing inspector who meets the requirements of the
board may inspect a multipurpose residential fire protection​sprinkler installation.
​


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## sprinklertech (Oct 24, 2010)

PlumbCrazy said:


> Even though this may be an opportunity for plumbers, I don't believe sprinkler contractors will walk away from this opportunity either.
> 
> They will get up to speed very quickly and compete with plumbers for this new work.


*OldSchool and luv2plumb **provide parts of the correct answer.*



OldSchool said:


> Been doing sprinkler and fire protection for over 20 years and I got to say it is a very good market to be in.
> 
> Once homes are required by law to have systems installed there will be so much work that a sprinkler company would not have enough employees to do all the work.


We don't want it as as luv2plumb points out states are requiring the work be done by master plumberors or journeyman plumber*s.

*If it ties into the domestic system we in the fire sprinkler companies aren't going to touch it. As several told me at the start of this thread fire sprinkler companies are not professional plumbers and I never thought otherwise.

Looks to be like it is going to be all your work with the exception of those mechanical companies that have sprinkler divisions but these are usually geared to larger projects.

Thank you luv2plumb for the info on Texas I was hoping it would look something like this. Hopefully other states will follow suite because in my opinion it is the best way to do it.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

I heard about this 5 years ago that we better get rdy for fire protection and nothing has changed

I did read about PEX pipe being a good pipe for this application


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## sprinklertech (Oct 24, 2010)

Florida is really messed up, isn't it?

It really is... *try to figure this out.* Florida is really goofy.



Tommy plumber said:


> I have a question for you, sir. I am interested in obtaining my Fire Contractor's License Class V in order to be able to test, certify and repair the backflow DC valves on the fire lines. Here is my question, will the class V license give me the ability to do that?


A contractor V is to work on underground to 1'-0" above finished floor. As a contractor V you would be providing and installing the backflow preventor so it stands to reason you should be able to test as long as you are certified to test and repair backflow devices.



> A lady in state fire marshal's office said 'no'. Hydraulic calcs won't need to be re-calculated with me testing a backflow, will they?


She is correct, the answer is it's not required*.* The only time hydraulic calculations would be called for is if you have an existing system without a backflow device and want to add one. Depending on whether it is a double check or rpz you can expect to lose between 2.0 and 12.0 psi so if you are adding one you would want to make sure it still works
.
But from what I have observed in Florida this would be exceedingly rare and you might not be able to find one.



> State law says pre-requisite for the class V license is state certified plumbing contractor's license (which I have). With my master plumbing license I should be able to sit for the fire contractor's licensing exam.
> 
> There are a handful of municipalities in S. FL that won't let plumbers touch the fire DC backflows ( It is actually state statute). However, most towns, cities, etc. are not aware of law or just don't care if plumber tests a BF on a fire line.


The only reason I can think is in NFPA 13 "Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems" which calls for forward testing at system demand. This could be a sticky point.



> 8.16.4.6* Backflow Devices.
> 8.16.4.6.1* Backflow Prevention Valves. *Means shall be provided downstream of all backflow prevention valves for flow tests at system demand.*
> 8.16.4.6.2 Retroactive Installation. When backflow prevention devices are to be retroactively installed on existing systems, a thorough hydraulic analysis, including revised hydraulic calculations, new fire flow data, and all necessary system modifications to accommodate the additional friction loss, shall be completed as a part of the installation.


So if you do have a retroactive installation so you know the fitter or journeyman does not include revised hydraulic calculations. That is my job.

While not a part of the standard the appendix offers some clarification.



> *A.8.16.4.6.1 The full flow test of the backflow prevention valve can be performed with a test header or other connection downstream of the valve. A bypass around the check valve in the fire department connector line with a control valve in the normally closed position can be an acceptable arrangement. When flow to a visible drain cannot be accomplished, closed loop flow can be acceptable if a flow meter or site glass is incorporated into the system to ensure flow. When a backflow prevention device is retroactively installed on a pipe schedule system, the revised hydraulic calculation still follows the pipe schedule method of 11.2.2 with the inclusion of friction loss for the device*.


Sprinkler systems must be inspected, tested and maintained in accordance with NFPA 25 "Standard for the Inspection, Testing, and Maintenance of Water-Based Fire Protection Systems"

Chapter 12 covers the required frequency of testing. (Nobody here is surprised it is annual).



> *Table 12.1 Summary of Valves, Valve Components, and Trim Inspection, Testing, and Maintenance
> **Backflow Prevention Assemblies Test Annually*


This could get messy. What if the backflow is upstream the diesel engine driven 2,000 gpm @ 125 psi fire pump? The only way to forward flow this is when we do the annual fire pump test. On a pump this size we have to flow 3,000 gpm (150% of pump rated capacity) by using eight 2 1/2" hoses flowing from the pump test header measuring the flow through underwriters playpipes.

Asking a professional plumber lacking specific fire protection (fire pump) experience is like you guys asking me to go fiddle faddle with a gas fired boiler.... you don't want to do that becuase I would probably blow myself up.

This is the only reason I can think of. Seems strange you can install and initially certify but can't do annual tests. 

Now I will let you in on a little secret.... we know about it but very, very few backlows are ever forward tested. We do it if there a fire hydrant downstream or in the case of a fire pump when we test the fire pump but that is about it unless we are specifically asked.

I think the forward flow testing requirement was added in the 2002 standard so older systems don't have provisions to forward flow because it wasn't required.

Hope I clarified some stuff anyway.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Thanks very much SprinklerTech, I really appreciate response. When I get ready to purchase books for my fire contractor's license exam class V, I'll be sure to ask your input and advice. Thanks again.


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## Wafflefryer (Nov 4, 2010)

There ae multipurpose systems (combination fire sprinkler/domestic) already installed, and being installed in Canada. The plumbers who are willing to get trained on how to install them are the plumbers who will be making more money in the near future. There will be a lot of potential work coming up post 2011. Be ready for it.


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## Wafflefryer (Nov 4, 2010)

The issue with getiing up-to-speed with the plumbers for 13D systems this; If I am a homeowner and I can deal with a single contractor, I will.

1 less contractor to charge me change orders
1 fewer crew to schedule
1 less trade to coordinate
1 system vs 2 seperate systems

The sprinkler contractors will grab a lot of work but i think plumbers will snag a lot of marketshare with multipurpose systems.


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