# Pexify Me Baby



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Check out these photo's and let me know what you think?

The top one is a piece of Viega with stainless steel ring crimp. Note the internal ridge where the copper meets the pex. Also note that the passageway is only slightly larger than a pencil. \

Good? Now go check your code under acceptable fittings. Hmmmmm.

bottom one is a piece of 3/4" heat pex with about a 1" split in it. It was about 2' from copper fin tube base (it also froze and broke) So much for Pex won't freeze and break.


----------



## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

Nothing but Uponor for me. No restrictions at the fittings. It is also designed to expand, very unlikely to split due to freezing.


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Check out these photo's and let me know what you think?
> 
> The top one is a piece of Viega with stainless steel ring crimp. Note the internal ridge where the copper meets the pex. Also note that the passageway is only slightly larger than a pencil. \
> 
> ...



Send the picture to the pipe manufacturer and se what they have to say, I'd be interested in there comments.


----------



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

I use Viega pex with bronze fittings. That top picture does not look like any Viega fitting I've ever used. Would you turn it over so we can see the crimp ring and the fitting better, thanks.


----------



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Looks like a Sioux Chief copper fitting to me.


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

It is copper but the basic problem remains regardless of the fitting.


----------



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> It is copper but the basic problem remains regardless of the fitting.


Viega doesn't make copper fittings.


----------



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Also I don't think that fitting is being used with a Viega stainless steel sleeve either. And in that case I don't even know if it's Viega pipe at all! LOL
No offense NH but why say it's Viega?


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

The pipe and ring are Viega. I believe the fitting is a 
Souix Chief. Either way the manufacturer is not the issue as Watts fittings also have the same inner ledge problem. The pex pipe itself matters not either as all 1/2" pex has the same inner dimension. The excercize here is to note the restrictive nature of the fitting and the code of the text. So for all you'se guys in love with your particular brand o pex this is not ment to be a forum on type as much as process.


----------



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

I think we discussed this before nhmaster didn't we? In my opinion even though there might be a very slight ledge I doubt it makes any difference. I've installed thousands of feet of Viega pex and have never had a complaint concerning lower flow etc. I seriously doubt it's an issue but I do agree with you there is a slight ledge and that the opening is smaller. You just have to remember to pipe it correctly in conjunction with the job.


----------



## trick1 (Sep 18, 2008)

The ledge acts like a burr or restriction causing velocity problems and ultimately corrosion of the fitting and the first foot or so of tubing.

When I was younger, I never paid much attention to these kinds of things, but now I always try to determine the cause of a tubing failure. A decent amount of the failures occured within a foot or so of a fitting.....tubing not reamed out....hmmmmm I wonder?

I'm not saying that I don't forget to de burr my tubing now and again, but it sure made me try to remember!!


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

ironranger said:


> I think we discussed this before nhmaster didn't we? In my opinion even though there might be a very slight ledge I doubt it makes any difference. I've installed thousands of feet of Viega pex and have never had a complaint concerning lower flow etc. I seriously doubt it's an issue but I do agree with you there is a slight ledge and that the opening is smaller. You just have to remember to pipe it correctly in conjunction with the job.


Absoutly correct. undersizing is (and probably will continue to be) a problem as homeowners and some plumbers also try to make a size for size switch. Honestly, I've never had problems either, but I do see the winds of change a blowing so to speak as the lawyers begin to line up looking for another payoff. I fully expect to see every pex manufacturer including Uponor cited in class action lawsuits within 5 years.


----------



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Why?


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Absoutly correct. undersizing is (and probably will continue to be) a problem as homeowners and some plumbers also try to make a size for size switch. Honestly, I've never had problems either, but I do see the winds of change a blowing so to speak as the lawyers begin to line up looking for another payoff. I fully expect to see every pex manufacturer including Uponor cited in class action lawsuits within 5 years.


 


I've been one of the diehards speaking against this product, heavily on plbg.com years ago when I was moderating there. All the warning signs certainly was pointing out to issues relating to the move, and sure enough,

SPOT ON with all the problems, the lawsuits, the class actions. 

It's all in the family though; dip tubes, PB, BLUE MAX, KITEC, ZURN. 

Funny how plumbers are moving from one product to the next, "I like this one! It's the bestest! No...now I like this one, its the bestest too! 

Rehau just shut down all thier production...and I've heard countless plumbers praise that product...now they are GONE. 

People are running out of plastic pipe, literally on these. In about 10-15 years I'm going to be the guy sharkbiting all this garbage together and running like hell with the money, thinking shame shame shame for saving a buck. 


:no:


----------



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Well the majority of plumbing companies love pex and millions of feet of it have been installed in this country for heating and plumbing. Overseas Viega and the wirsbo are proven players for years. I have yet to read about any major melt downs. Sure there are the lawsuits and idiots out there mixing brands causing problems. Faulty brass etc. But we have the same in the copper and other plastic industries too, it's not just pex.
I Know there are a lot of folks out there that are die hard copper installers and that's great, have no problem with it. Myself I have chosen pex and will continue using it. I like it better, my customers like it better. But I don't think anyone is saving a buck using it. Viega pex fittings are very expensive and when you do a cost comparison between a copper job and a viega pex job it comes out very close to the same for materials. I charge the same for pex as I would for copper. The advantage is that I get it done in half the time. I disagree about the future, I believe the future is pex.;-)


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Like most people we tend to get sold on a product or process and then put our heads in the sand. I for one was guilty of climbing on the poly-butylene wagon and rode the damn thing right up to the gates of hell. Only years later did I finally see my folly. 

Problems that no one wants to talk about, Chlorene seriously degrades all types of pex. Manufacturers coat the pipe with an inhibitor but it eventually wears off. 

Many of the de-zincification problems are greatly exaserbated by the turbulant flow through undersized and ledged fittings.

Though it seems a bit out there, rats and rodents do like to chew on the stuff.

UV radiation has always been a problem though aluma-pex solves that issue.

However all this aside, My issue (because I am a code re-certification instructor) is with the restrictive nature of the fittings. The IPC and UPC are both very clear on the subject and state that there can be no interior ledges or obstructions to flow, nor narrowing of the fitting. I am sure you have all seen the brass elbows that essentially have two small holes drilled through to meet at a sharp 90 degree angle. Both restrictive and turbulent. Now, yes you can theoretically up size the pipe to handle the problem, but the codes make no provision for up-sizing. It does not say that you can use ledge and or restrictive fittings if you up size the pipe. There is plenty of material there for any code inspector to fail the job and some in my area are doing just that.


----------



## SPH (Nov 4, 2008)

copper = 4fps
pex = 8fps

me = loving pex, and loving the flow rates


----------



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

From the Minnesota code book:
"Cross-linked polyethylene (PEX) tubing 6M with fittings 6N or 6O shall be certified by an independent third-party certifier. The water distribution system shall be installed by a factory-trained installer in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions. Tubing and fittings must be marked with the appropriate ASTM designations by the manufacturer."

My customers are happy, I'm happy. My inspector is happy too! It's code approved and I'm using it. I guess I'm just not as concerned about "possible" problems as you are.
In all actuality I could make most of the same arguments about copper and brass, pipe and fittings. I'm sure the old old timers had the same arguments about copper and pvc too when switching from cast iron and galvanized piping. Plumbing is an ever changing and evolving field, some things work out and some don't. Just the way it is I guess and that's what I love about this business, never a dull moment! night


----------



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Not to be contrary or anything but the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. Gather up all the pex failures you come across in the next year and I will gather up all the copper failures I come across in the next year and at the end of the year we will see who's bucket is the most full. I can tell you as a one man repair shop I will probably fill a 55 gal drum full of copper that is split, pitted, leaking fittings, etc. I have yet to have to make a pex repair anywhere.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

That's odd, 


Search engine yields only one class action lawsuit against copper. A rather limited problem I see.

But when we speak about pex, the doors open to a long lengthy trail. 


You would think the words Kitec were a common word by now, guess not. 

Maybe Zurn is hiding? 


NHMaster loves a good debate. :thumbsup:


----------



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

No one can control what some ambulance chasing lawyer thinks he can make a score on. Turn on your tv, they're constantly trolling for anything they think they can make a buck on and there are plenty of non lawyers in the world who make a living off hiring lawyer scum to extort money via the legal system.

NH showed us a pex tubing failure. It's the first I've ever seen. My copper scraps just about cover my family vacation every year.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Roast Duck said:


> NHMaster loves a good debate. :thumbsup:


He sure does and the comments won't be censored here...


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> No one can control what some ambulance chasing lawyer thinks he can make a score on. Turn on your tv, they're constantly trolling for anything they think they can make a buck on and there are plenty of non lawyers in the world who make a living off hiring lawyer scum to extort money via the legal system.
> 
> NH showed us a pex tubing failure. It's the first I've ever seen. My copper scraps just about cover my family vacation every year.


And mine also. But that does not keep the ambulance chasers from chasing. And Ironranger rightly points out that there are code ambiguities aplenty here also. On the one hand the IPC is very clear about the use of fittings and then they turn around and approve a method that they earlier dissaprove. One for the lawyers to sort out I suppose.


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I suppose that down south you guys aren't going to see split pex from freezing. it's not real common up here, but it does happen. That particular piece came out of a winter home that the power had gone off and the systems were not anti freezed. Everything in the house froze. 2 broken toilets, water heater frozen solid and teetering like a weeble, faucets, traps, lot's of money there. Even split the Weil McLain Boiler.


----------



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

nhmaster3015 said:


> I suppose that down south you guys aren't going to see split pex from freezing. it's not real common up here, but it does happen. That particular piece came out of a winter home that the power had gone off and the systems were not anti freezed. Everything in the house froze. 2 broken toilets, water heater frozen solid and teetering like a weeble, faucets, traps, lot's of money there. Even split the Weil McLain Boiler.


Under those conditions I would fully expect that every copper pipe in the house would have been split too. It's actually probably pretty amazing that there was apparently only a single pex failure.


----------



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Btw, congrats on the catch. All that repair work I'm sure made for a NICE payday :thumbup:.


----------



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

It doesn't get much colder anywhere in the lower US than it does here where I live. We have the record, 67 below actual temp! LOL 
Had lot's of temps so far this year in the 30's and 40's below and that's not including wind chill temps.
There are days when I'm out in the shop working on the trucks and have to stick my hands in my chest freezer to warm them up!!!!!! (not kidding) Sometimes the temps can be an easy 70 degrees warmer in the freezer than in the shop! ;-)
I also have never seen a piece of wirsbo split like that so I'm going to do a little experiment. I'm going to take about a 3 foot piece of Wirsbo, Viega and copper. I will make sure they are completely full, and cap both ends and then leave them outside for a few days. I'll let you know the results with pictures.
I think I'm the first one around here using the Viega and so far no problems. There was another plumber here using the Wirsbo for years and have never seen problems with his work.


----------



## SPH (Nov 4, 2008)

Roast Duck said:


> That's odd,
> 
> 
> Search engine yields only one class action lawsuit against copper. A rather limited problem I see.
> ...


You should look at the links you post before you use them as "evidence".

Most of those links were regarding Polybutylene pipe, which has been banned since 1996 when the Shell Oil company was sued for a bad batch.

Every product has its bad apples. Copper piping had its time with the Wolverine pipe that was produced with a thinner sidewall and led to pinhole leaks. Pex pipe has had some issues with oxybarrier pipe being damaged due to sun exposure.

The way our supplies are being produced in China, Korea, Thailand, Mexico, its no wonder there are so many problems these days. The only way we can really stop this is refusing to purchase products that are produced in substandard conditions.

Like another poster said, its just part of the evolution of our trade. And it is our job to weed out the bad products and protect our customers. Just because a product is "certified" does not mean it should be used.

Its what seperates us from drywallers, or roofers


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

ironranger said:


> It doesn't get much colder anywhere in the lower US than it does here where I live. We have the record, 67 below actual temp! LOL
> Had lot's of temps so far this year in the 30's and 40's below and that's not including wind chill temps.
> There are days when I'm out in the shop working on the trucks and have to stick my hands in my chest freezer to warm them up!!!!!! (not kidding) Sometimes the temps can be an easy 70 degrees warmer in the freezer than in the shop! ;-)
> I also have never seen a piece of wirsbo split like that so I'm going to do a little experiment. I'm going to take about a 3 foot piece of Wirsbo, Viega and copper. I will make sure they are completely full, and cap both ends and then leave them outside for a few days. I'll let you know the results with pictures.
> I think I'm the first one around here using the Viega and so far no problems. There was another plumber here using the Wirsbo for years and have never seen problems with his work.


I recommend that you try it with fittings between 2" and 7" apart all down that length...


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

SPH said:


> You should look at the links you post before you use them as "evidence".
> 
> Most of those links were regarding Polybutylene pipe, which has been banned since 1996 when the Shell Oil company was sued for a bad batch.
> 
> ...


 
Drywallers in Florida are now trembling because the drywall from China is making materials deteriorate inside the walls...


Where are the Plumbers on this site that installed Kitech, PB, BlueMax, water heaters with defective dip tubes... 

I'm on the list, time to come clean. 

It's one thing to be completely unaware and find out later, it's a whole different other story to understand the track history of products and the history of the family tree, the host of these products and see where they go.

I'm constantly going to the supply house with broken plastic parts in my hands, always. Job security? Of course, everything man-made can and will fail, eventually.

But there are some things in plumbing that I forsee is massive in destructive capability, and I'm someone as a plumber being called upon to make sense of why their water lines are blowing apart in the walls, snapping at connections. 

Everyone praises PEX, but no one wants to hear of the class action lawsuits following the different brands, the companies that are quietly going out of business that marketed this stuff. I don't follow the crowd when I feel that years from now I'm going to create financial hardships because I wanted ease of install or save money so I can install it cheaper than the next guy. 

NHMaster is on target with his statements, whether you install millions of feet of this stuff or not. Chlorine breaks down this stuff and it's rearing its ugly head sooner than later, and some of us are making it known that we don't want to be part of that situation. 

My words have been scribed on these warning signs for years on the internet. The class action lawsuits are proving my reasoning. 

I'm never going to run from my liability, and I'm making sure I give my customers the best that's out there on the market. PEX is unproven in many areas right now, ask Las Vegas Nevada...

And the piping they replaced that defective piping with? It's starting to fail as well. 


Texas has been chiming in as well. They got Kitec too. I sure wish those plumbers were on here telling me how great that plastic pipe is. 
:furious:


----------



## Scott K (Oct 12, 2008)

I'd love to hear the attacks on PP-R Fusion Pipe too... This stuff is gonna be in my house one day. 

Pex - too easy to hacks to look like know it all, but there is believe it or not a right way and a wrong way to install pex and lots do it wrong.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Scott K said:


> I'd love to hear the attacks on PP-R Fusion Pipe too... This stuff is gonna be in my house one day.
> 
> Pex - too easy to hacks to look like know it all, but there is believe it or not a right way and a wrong way to install pex and lots do it wrong.


How do you do it?


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Redwood said:


> How do you do it?


 

Heeeeeeey.....where's your famous cheesed flavored pex :furious:


----------



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

There is one link on the internet regarding wirsbo and a class action. Nothing has ever come of it, I don't think it ever went forward. Some lawyer was reaching with that one and he failed because there isn't a problem with it. There are no class actions against Viega pureflow pex. Just because one company did it wrong doesn't mean the entire industry is crap, give me a break. I'll keep using Viega and Wirsbo pex for almost all of my jobs unless I see a problem, so far there has been none. If there was we would have heard about it by now, over 30 years in some places. I think that's a pretty good track record.
Others have given their predictions for the future, here's mine. 10 years from now Pex will be the norm. Copper piping will be the dinasour just like galvanized is now.
In my opinion my prediction is just as credible as any other here. 
Viega just built a huge new manufacturing plant south of here. Viega Pex, American Made product. I think they feel pretty good about the future.


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

ironranger said:


> There is one link on the internet regarding wirsbo and a class action. Nothing has ever come of it, I don't think it ever went forward. Some lawyer was reaching with that one and he failed because there isn't a problem with it. There are no class actions against Viega pureflow pex. Just because one company did it wrong doesn't mean the entire industry is crap, give me a break. I'll keep using Viega and Wirsbo pex for almost all of my jobs unless I see a problem, so far there has been none. If there was we would have heard about it by now, over 30 years in some places. I think that's a pretty good track record.
> Others have given their predictions for the future, here's mine. 10 years from now Pex will be the norm. Copper piping will be the dinasour just like galvanized is now.
> In my opinion my prediction is just as credible as any other here.
> Viega just built a huge new manufacturing plant south of here. Viega Pex, American Made product. I think they feel pretty good about the future.


Well, predictions are just that and certainly yours is just as valid as any other. If the economy keeps sliding like it is it may be a moot point for all of us anyway.


----------



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

I think in this economy we are some of the lucky ones (plumbers). No matter how bad it gets, people will spend money to have hot water and a working toilet.


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Yep, but it's kinda funny how they all seem to want to play lets make a deal now.


----------



## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

I have never seen PEX used for water pipe, it is not code approved for potable water here, it can only be used for radiant heat.


----------



## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Yep, but it's kinda funny how they all seem to want to play lets make a deal now.


I'm not sure if its just general insecurity rather than taking advantage of our slow time. The g.c.s are more likely to use the slow time against us than Mrs. Homeowner.

I said it before: why would I give a price break when I'm slow and hurting for money? Now I'm charging more and being way more sales aggressive to increase the invoice total and its working.

Work slow? Sell! Sell! Sell!


----------



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Went on an emergency call tonight. When I arrived there were two serve pro trucks already there ripping out carpet. The ho's had returned home from out of town earlier this evening. We had a hard freeze the night before last which is most likely when the COPPER pipe located in the attic split wide open. It was a disaster.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

smellslike$tome said:


> Went on an emergency call tonight. When I arrived there were two serve pro trucks already there ripping out carpet. The ho's had returned home from out of town earlier this evening. We had a hard freeze the night before last which is most likely when the COPPER pipe located in the attic split wide open. It was a disaster.


 
Kind of amazing that the copper pipe didn't freeze all these years, better yet,

If someone would of insulated it properly, it would of never busted, right? 


Here's an example that will make a homeowner frown: 

Customer called me two saturdays ago, water service is frozen.

If it was copper, I could of rented a thawing machine and got them unfrozen. 

12 days later and they still don't have water.....been too cold, no way in hell to get them thawed out. 

Line ain't broke....but they've been buying bottle water to flush their toilets. 



Every frozen/broken copper water line I've dealt with had everything to do with improper insulation. IF it was copper's fault, wouldn't a lawsuit already been in the works, like 80 years ago for being such bad product? :whistling2:


I'll take those repairs since they make me Moan-Neay!


----------



## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

Heat-gun and patience.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

uaplumber said:


> Heat-gun and patience.


 

Are you suggesting, digging up this water service to do that?



OR, 


When the plastic lines freeze in the wall, 


you can't "see" where they've frozen at...so, do you start opening up all the walls, or just set up heaters everywhere and point where you think they might be...


It's almost to a benefit with a copper line pops because at least you can pinpoint where the problem is, and the true fix is not the repair of the pipe, 

it's the proper insulation that goes back into the wall. 

@ almost $100/hour, I don't think my customers will let me sit with a hair dryer hoping for a thaw.


----------



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I have seen a properly insulated copper line freeze and split, 7/8 wall insulation, more once where I live.


----------



## DUNBAR PLUMBING (Sep 11, 2008)

Ron The Plumber said:


> I have seen a properly insulated copper line freeze and split, 7/8 wall insulation, more once where I live.


 


At 32 degrees, are like 10, 0? 


Here's how I laid it out to the bald headed guy at the oil changing place yesterday, he told me he had his copper water line freeze and bust, twice now in his bi-level home:


Told him that unless you stop air movement, you'll never protect those water lines from freezing. I told him to wait till it gets cold again and purposely wear a short sleeved t-shirt while you're insulating the area. 

I told him to keep insulating till he doesn't feel anymore air movement. Nothing is going to matter unless air movement stops. 

Here's where I should of made my millions, with those goofy stryofoam domes that people strap to their outside faucets.

Insulating pipes slows down the transfer of temperature, it does not keep something warm, ever. If you take a copper pipe, sharkbite cap both ends of a 10' length of copper with water in it, then armaflex the hell out of that stick of copper, throw it outside in the freezing cold, 

It's going to freeze and bust. It will take longer to do so given the insulation, but at some point there's no way it can't freeze. 

If copper pipe was as thick as brass or galvanized piping, it would never fail under climate conditions at all. 

I personally feel that type M copper should be banned completely, L copper only, but that stuff freezes and busts just the same.


Years ago I posted a link on plbg.com of a test of pex freezing and what caused the most problems in the test, as in failure points. 

The pex did remarkably well in the long runs, wouldn't break...but inbetween fittings 6" and less, the piping would break just like copper. 

I wish I bookmarked that experiment and I don't think I can dig back 6 years in my posts on that site.


----------



## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Most of the pipe failures I have seen are related to the installation rather than the manufacturing. That includes all brands of PEX, Copper, Galvanize and CPVC. In most cases the installer has either not properly installed the materials or has installed the material in an environment which is not compatible with the materials. As professionals it is our jobs to know not just how to install but where to install different systems.

Mark


----------



## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> Most of the pipe failures I have seen are related to the installation rather than the manufacturing. That includes all brands of PEX, Copper, Galvanize and CPVC. In most cases the installer has either not properly installed the materials or has installed the material in an environment which is not compatible with the materials. As professionals it is our jobs to know not just how to install but where to install different systems.
> 
> Mark


:laughing: Man, when there's 24" of snow and its 2 degrees in the crawler, ain't nothing safe---including the plumber. 

During the freeze, its best to leave a faucet running at the furthermost point and the heat on at 70, day and night. 

I hear tell that we west coast people are total dummies, though. In the really cold east regions, they don't get frozen pipes. But, a few freezes here pays the winter bills, so who is the dummies....


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Roast Duck said:


> Heeeeeeey.....where's your famous cheesed flavored pex :furious:


This stuff? :laughing:


----------



## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy06osti/39664.pdf


Tests of available PEX piping systems were performed inside a freezer. Kitec and its connectors are not freeze tolerant. Tests showed that short pipe sections of order 3-5" in length with metal connectors on both ends tended to burst, and must be avoided. Tests also showed that longer sections (> 7") of the two chemically-crosslinked brands are freeze-tolerant. For an irradiation cross-linked material, three longer sections broke, and that pipe should not be considered freeze tolerant. The polysulphone connectors prevented early formation of blockages, but several broke and should not be used in a freeze-tolerant piping system. None of the two brands of metallic connectors have broken. There is good indication that the two available PEX piping systems may be freeze-tolerant if installed in long sections with uniform insulation and with metallic connectors.


----------



## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

If you install any water lines in a outside wall, or a wall adjoining a garage, STOP. I don't care where you live.
Inside walls only. Under mobile homes apply heat tape and INSTRUCT the customer about yearly inspections.
Use ALL precautions and freezing will be a moot point.


----------



## Empire (Feb 6, 2009)

Or you could all move to Phoenix Arizona where I have seen a pipe burst due to freezing conditions only once in the last decade!


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Ok now. Here's a Uponor 1/2" plastic elbow cut in half. The pipe is Rehau because I thought it would show up better. There is definately less of a ledge or ridge here as the expansion of the pipe takes care of most of it but if you look closely you can still se a bit of one. What bothers me moe though is the abrupt change in direction at the middle of the fitting. There is virtually no sweep there at all. For smooth change of flow direction I think I lean to the Souix Cheif copper fitting as it has a nice long transition.


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Crap, forgot the picture...Dooooh...


----------



## M5Plumb (Oct 2, 2008)

NHMaster, I can agree with you on the sweep. How many failures have occurred as a result of the directional change? At that point it ends up getting into pipe sizing to ensure your flow rates at point of use right?


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Well, yes. It's always abotu flow rates. Though turbulance through the fittings seems to lead to faster failure rate (dezincification) of the fitting and perhaps it corrolates with the degradation of the chlorene barrier slightly downstream of the fitting. Thin is, there are a lot of factors to consider with pex that just aren't there with copper.


----------



## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

Empire said:


> Or you could all move to Phoenix Arizona where I have seen a pipe burst due to freezing conditions only once in the last decade!


 Kinda like, "I only crashed once while driving drunk in the last 10 years, Guess I can keep going." This example is, or course, over the top. I just believe in doing it right, regardless of where you are.


----------



## uaplumber (Jun 16, 2008)

Fittings are the downfall of most products. However, everyone will admit, you can get away with only 2 fittings on most pex runs. How many of us have seen copper pipe as thin as paper due to velocity? Re-circ lines?
I believe that using pex allows for a more laminar flow ( with the exception of fittings ) I use only Uponor. Yes the 90 is a bad turn, agreed, but I have put in 2 in the last year, and those were the exception. (I checked online how many I bought, 4 were bought 2 are still in the shop.) Those 90's are an engineered plastic that is said to outlast any copper fitting. The Uponor website also states that they are for tight turns, they will make a true 90 turn as well as having a 25 year guarantee.
Its nice to have a company stand behind their products like that. Makes me sleep really well.


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

we have been using nothing but Uponor for 5 years now. Dropped Watts and Viega due to an inspector that will not pass either of them.


----------



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Those who use pex correctly use a lot less fittings. Pex will outlast copper, you won't have corosion or pin holes due to water problems. Size your pex correctly and this talk of sharp turns and lips is just crazy! Come on guys, what the heck? Any of you out there using pex ever have a problem with flow? Any complaints from your customers? I sure haven't. Gotten any pin holes yet? All this talk of "maybe's" is crazy. When it comes to freezing I sure in heck would rather have pex out there over copper any day! And speaking of freezing, I have yet to have a call on a burst piece of wirsbo or viega, it just hasn't happened to me, anyone else?


----------



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> we have been using nothing but Uponor for 5 years now. Dropped Watts and Viega due to an inspector that will not pass either of them.


 
You had an inspector not allow Viega yet he allows Uponor? Sounds like that inspector needs to be educated!:whistling2:
Viega Pex has been around for over 25 years in the field and is proven. I would think after 25 years we might have heard about a few problems don't you?
Viega is the Largest pex manufacturer in the world, I wonder why?
Viega's Bronze fittings are NOT affected by stress cracking caused by dezincification common in other brass fittings. I switched from Wirsbo to Viega for many reasons. One reason is the climate here, no need to wait for the pipe to warm all the way up on service calls.
I could go on and on but I think you get the idea.


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

He made his decision based on that bit in the code about internal ledges or obstructions to flow. Had a lot of us in the area hopping mad but the State backed him up. Personally from an installation standpoint I like the Veiga system because I think it is a bit faster especially in cold weather. You know this is all nonsense, I know it is all nonsense but when you have inspectors making the rules you have to take notice. BTW, did you try freezing a piece of it yet? I am goint to make up 10 - 12" lengths, filled and capped. Use different pipe and joining methods. Want to see if any one pipe or crimp system is weaker than the other. I'll have the class set it up on Tuesday and we should have results the following day.


----------



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

I haven't done it yet because the unusual warm weather we're having! In the 30's lately! ;-)
I'm going to wait until we have another really cold night like around 20 below zero. When it gets that cold and then include the windchill it should show some good results. I don't think a freezer will cut it.


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

most good freezers will get down to zero, that should be cold enough. Gonna let em go a good 12 hrs.


----------



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> most good freezers will get down to zero, that should be cold enough. Gonna let em go a good 12 hrs.


I just checked my freezer, 19 degrees. I'm going to do this outside with well below temps.

I'll put together one for the Viega tomorrow. What do you think about using a 3/4" inch elbow with about a foot or more out each side, capped and full of water? I only use the stainless steel sleeves and the bronze fittings so that's what I'll use for the test. For the copper I'll do the same except I'll solder on a cap on one side and then use an old gate valve or something for the other so it can be filled with water easier.

I have a deer shack I keep heated near 50 degrees. Even though I turn off the well and try removing most of the water from the lines I still had a pipe burst a few weeks ago. It was a half inch copper line and was touching the outside wall (6 inch wood timber) the pipe wasn't even full but was a low spot. Split it wide open for about two inches!
My inside walls are still open (work in progress) and I plan on removing the remaining copper lines and replace them with Viega pex this spring. I highly doubt the pex would have split in this exact situation. Copper can be sort of funny that way, I have seen splits in some of the strangest places.


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

I'm just gonna use caps so between the two of us maybe we can get some interesting results. My prediction, The Watts will push the cap out.


----------



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

On the viega I just don't see the fittings coming apart with the stainless steel sleeves being used but who knows. I'm more interested to see if the pipe rips open. We all know what could happen to the copper but I think it would be good to do a timed comparison between the two. I'll make sure I document everything, the temp and time etc. Hey what else do we do with our spare time! LOL


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

You guys sould read this post before you go through the trouble of making up 10-12" test pieces.

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f2/pexify-me-baby-2175/index5/#post26434


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

Yea I did and I posted the photo of frozen pex split also but I'm curious as to wether or not fitting type, ring type and pex type make a difference. And I will absolutly say that pex takes a hell of a lot more to split that copper, hands down.


----------



## Plumber (Jan 18, 2009)

nhmaster3015 said:


> Yea I did and I posted the photo of frozen pex split also but I'm curious as to wether or not fitting type, ring type and pex type make a difference. And I will absolutly say that pex takes a hell of a lot more to split that copper, hands down.


The world is watching and waiting on you guys...:yes:


----------



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Heck it was 42 degrees today up here, it's like a heat wave! If this keeps up my ice fishing days are numbered! I didn't get the pieces made today, it was just too nice to play with pipe. I did get my van cleaned out though! Found parts I didn't even know I had! lol Tomorrow I'll get them ready, I'm sure the cold weather isn't finished up here just yet.


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

To date I have completed well over 2000 repipes with pex and have had no major failures. I can count the number of pex repairs I've done in my lifetime on my hand. In just the last month I've personally done more than 20 copper repairs. hmmmm I don't know, maybe I should start using copper on my repipes



Roast Duck said:


> That's odd,
> 
> 
> Search engine yields only one class action lawsuit against copper. A rather limited problem I see.
> ...


----------



## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Protech, what's your choice of pex and why? I used wirsbo for a while but found the Viega better for the cold climate up here. Seems the Wirsbo didn't want to retract properly in 30 below zero temps! ;-)


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

who ever is the lowest at the time.


----------



## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Flow rates my eye! I just turned on every fixture in a 2 bath house that was piped with 1/2 copper mains and 3/8 branches to everything. I didn't run the wm or dw but everything else in the house was on with adequate flow.


----------



## PEXguru (Feb 12, 2009)

*Let's go back to stone age and use copper again.*

The bottom picture makes me think the tubing was either kinked or accidentally cut during the installation. Either one would create a weak point which opended up more with thermal expansion and contraction. Manufacturing defect? - maybe, but that's very rare. BTW, tubing brand is not a big issue - install it properly and it'll work just fine.
As for the upper picture - i wish i had a closer look...


----------



## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

I am learning about this pex piping. The company I now work for loves veiga with the little peep hole if you are familiar with it. I want to hear how the tests went as I am contemplating on maybe spending the 500 bucks for the veiga tool kit. I know Protech will prolly faint when he reads this. :laughing:


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Glad to hear you've converted 

Your CPVC sins will be forgiven



Plasticman said:


> I am learning about this pex piping. The company I now work for loves veiga with the little peep hole if you are familiar with it. I want to hear how the tests went as I am contemplating on maybe spending the 500 bucks for the veiga tool kit. I know Protech will prolly faint when he reads this. :laughing:


----------



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Dezincification is only an issue in a few water supplies around the USA. You are making a big deal about something that just isn't. If you happen to live in an area with water that is prone to DZ then you should be using bronze, SS or even the dreaded plastic fittings. You could even use fittings made of alpha brass (red brass). The rest of the USA (the majority can simply use the cheaper duplex/yellow brass fittings without issues (assuming they were manufactured correctly that is).

The sharp turns do make areas of high turbulence and the consequential friction losses, but as long as the system is sized according to code, it will not hurt anything. Pex does have a higher dynamic pressure drop than copper, but since it can handle erosion better, it balances out.
This concludes PEX 101. Hope to see you next class 



nhmaster3015 said:


> Well, yes. It's always abotu flow rates. Though turbulance through the fittings seems to lead to faster failure rate (dezincification) of the fitting and perhaps it corrolates with the degradation of the chlorene barrier slightly downstream of the fitting. Thin is, there are a lot of factors to consider with pex that just aren't there with copper.


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

PEX is evil and an abomination upon the trade. Those that embrace PEX will burn forever in hell and are hereby excommunicated. :laughing:


----------

