# Stack testing...



## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

I just had a thought, would it be realistic to think that sometime in the future you could stack test with hot air or cold air and use infrared to find leaks? Or something along those lines. I was just thinking, on larger systems especially it'd cut back on time and labor searching for leaks.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Flyout95 said:


> I just had a thought, would it be realistic to think that sometime in the future you could stack test with hot air or cold air and use infrared to find leaks? Or something along those lines. I was just thinking, on larger systems especially it'd cut back on time and labor searching for leaks.



I like


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

©® that idea.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

It would require specialized equipment. That is what you could patent, not the idea.


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

Don't burst my bubble.


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## KoleckeINC (Oct 22, 2011)

How hard would it be to use smoke?


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## Flyout95 (Apr 13, 2012)

It's not hard, but at times I've seen smaller joint leaks and cracks not show smoke. I figure if you can blast hot or cold air into a line you will see the leaks with thermal imaging. I doubt it'd even require the line to be plugged.


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## PPRI (Aug 27, 2013)

Infrared is being able to see a light that is outside of our visible spectrum. Like above 795nm. I think you are referring to thermal which is actually a computer program that uses a bolometer to generate an image based on the temperature differential of materials. 

The problem with thermal is that it doesn't necessarily use air temperature so a leak on a pipe venting hot air really wouldn't show up unless that hot air was warming a nearby object.


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## Ghostmaker (Jan 12, 2013)

Have you ever had a 5 lb air with cracked pipe not show a loss in pressure after 15 minutes?


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## mtfallsmikey (Jan 11, 2010)

2012 IPC prohibits air testing.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

mtfallsmikey said:


> 2012 IPC prohibits air testing.



It's about time the ICC catch on to what PVC manufactures, engineers, and ER personnel have been stating for decades.


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## mtfallsmikey (Jan 11, 2010)

I used to use my gas testing gauge in DWV systems, gauge read in ounces, therefore very sensitive. What I heard was there was a situation where a fitting blew apart during a test and caused serious injuries to a couple of guys


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## 422 plumber (Jul 31, 2008)

Brian, 
I like your style of thinking. But until the architects and engineers quit spec'ing a stack test. It's wishful thinking


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## Ghostmaker (Jan 12, 2013)

Then your left with the water test. Must be loads of fun in -14 degree weather.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

We used to test bigger copper water piping with air pressure. I remember as an apprentice the journeyman and I installed a lot of 2" copper in the ceiling of a Circuit City {I think it was a Circuit City store} years ago, and he told me we were going to test with air. He said if there is/are leak{s} it is easier to repair with air in the lines. He was right, a 2" coupling had a leak and we made quick work of re-soldering to make the repair.

Just recently, I was going for a 2nd rough plumbing inspection on a re-model. The house has well and septic. The power company came out and dis-connected the elec. to the building due to a problem with the box and weather head. So I tested my water piping {Pex} with air. My PVC dwv was already filled with water when the pump had been running. My code book states that water piping shall be tested with water from a potable source at a minimum PSI that is equal to the working pressure of the system or words to that effect. It passed with air in the water piping.


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## paultheplumber1 (May 1, 2014)

I always air test my water and PVC. Never been a problem. 90% of my roughs are generator jobs and no water available at the time of the rough.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Are water piping gets tested with air to 125 psi. DWV can either be a water test or a 5 psi test for 15 minutes.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Anyone use smoke or peppermint for stack tests?

We use air for water and on anything over 1-1/2" we use one of these hydroststic pumps.


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## Nathan901 (Feb 11, 2012)

How long does it take to build pressure with that pump? 
I've only ever used the lever pump type.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

Nathan901 said:


> How long does it take to build pressure with that pump?
> I've only ever used the lever pump type.


It's so fast that sometimes we use a socket wrench rather than a cordless drill.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

paultheplumber1 said:


> I always air test my water and PVC. Never been a problem. 90% of my roughs are generator jobs* and no water* *available at the time of the rough*.













We used to get final plumbing inspections without any water in the homes. The homes were on well water. And the well company had not yet gotten the wells operational. The houses were ready for final; we used to set the fixtures, caulk, grout and then call it in for a final inspection. Even though the plumbing code states that the p-traps are supposed to be full of water, the inspectors would pass them anyway.

Another exception to the rule, from south Florida anyway.


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## mccmech (Jul 6, 2011)

plumbdrum said:


> Are water piping gets tested with air to 125 psi. DWV can either be a water test or a 5 psi test for 15 minutes.


Regardless of pipe material, on the air tests you stated?


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## KoleckeINC (Oct 22, 2011)

Plumbus said:


> Anyone use smoke or peppermint for stack tests?
> 
> ONLY on old stuff when the walls are closed-to qualify the need to remove them.
> 
> Pollard water has good smoke bombs, your local organic grocer should have oil of peppermint-I can smell peppermint around the base of a stack through a concrete floor it's so strong.


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## Nathan901 (Feb 11, 2012)

Inspectors like to see a ground rough dwv system with one 7 ft riser, filled to the brim.


I had a guy come and just shake the pipe to see if there was water in it, looked around, looked at me, and thumbs up.

The inflatable plugs are the best IMO. 
Air tests don't scare me, even in foamcore dwv. 
I've made my fair share of air cannons in my early days and they had way more than 5 psi in them


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

mccmech said:


> Regardless of pipe material, on the air tests you stated?


 125 is a standard 11/2 times maximum working pressure on water. All types of material should pass without problems or you should think twice about using.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Air testing PVC? :whistling2::no:


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Air testing PVC? :whistling2::no:


 most 125 psi tests are hydro. DWV PVC is expectable for a air test of five pounds or ten feet of head.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

wyrickmech said:


> most 125 psi tests are hydro. DWV PVC is expectable for a air test of five pounds or ten feet of head.


Hydrotest is okay...

Air testing...:no:


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Tommy plumber said:


> We used to get final plumbing inspections without any water in the homes. The homes were on well water. And the well company had not yet gotten the wells operational. The houses were ready for final; we used to set the fixtures, caulk, grout and then call it in for a final inspection. Even though the plumbing code states that the p-traps are supposed to be full of water, the inspectors would pass them anyway.
> 
> Another exception to the rule, from south Florida anyway.


Does your code state minimum and maximum water temperatures? Every final inspection I've gotten starts with the inspector checking hot water temp at a sink and then the shower. In a house you need at least 120 but no more than 130 at the sink and showers can't go over 112.
I don't even think to call for a final until I have every fixture working and tempered.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

bct p&h said:


> Does your code state minimum and maximum water temperatures? Every final inspection I've gotten starts with the inspector checking hot water temp at a sink and then the shower. In a house you need at least 120 but no more than 130 at the sink and showers can't go over 112.
> I don't even think to call for a final until I have every fixture working and tempered.












Yes we have max. of 120 F. with a max. of 110 F. at any bidets. But the inspectors don't check that as far as I know. They are looking to see if water is on; vacuum breakers are on any outside hose spigots; 2-way outside c.o. is visible and present; toilets are not too close to vanity; water hammer arrestor is under kitchen sink on dishwasher line; etc.

Once an inspector didn't recognize a Brizo faucet and asked me "How do I know if this faucet complies with the low-lead standare?" He failed my final. So I downloaded a piece of paper from the internet, showing him that Brizo faucets, do indeed comply with the low-lead standard. That was in Palm Beach, FL where the inspectors practically make you bend over and cough. 

Rod Stewart, Rush Limbaugh, Donald Trump etc all have homes in Palm Beach, and so the inspectors are more 'thorough'. A side note, I saw Rod walking down the street one day, and people were stopping to gawk; I have worked at Trump's Mar a Lago country club and I have seen Rush while working at his place....you haven't seen wealthy until you've worked in some of the Palm Beach mansions. They say that in the winter, 75% of the nation's wealthiest people are in Palm Beach. My buddy was working late one Friday night at Rush's home and he got a $500 tip from Mr. Limbaugh. Now that is wealthy.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Tommy plumber said:


> Yes we have max. of 120 F. with a max. of 110 F. at any bidets. But the inspectors don't check that as far as I know. They are looking to see if water is on; vacuum breakers are on any outside hose spigots; 2-way outside c.o. is visible and present; toilets are not too close to vanity; water hammer arrestor is under kitchen sink on dishwasher line; etc.
> 
> Once an inspector didn't recognize a Brizo faucet and asked me "How do I know if this faucet complies with the low-lead standare?" He failed my final. So I downloaded a piece of paper from the internet, showing him that Brizo faucets, do indeed comply with the low-lead standard. That was in Palm Beach, FL where the inspectors practically make you bend over and cough.
> 
> Rod Stewart, Rush Limbaugh, Donald Trump etc all have homes in Palm Beach, and so the inspectors are more 'thorough'. A side note, I saw Rod walking down the street one day, and people were stopping to gawk; I have worked at Trump's Mar a Lago country club and I have seen Rush while working at his place....you haven't seen wealthy until you've worked in some of the Palm Beach mansions. They say that in the winter, 75% of the nation's wealthiest people are in Palm Beach. My buddy was working late one Friday night at Rush's home and he got a $500 tip from Mr. Limbaugh. Now that is wealthy.



I don't agree with an inspector signing off on a final without verifying hot water temps at faucets and showers. It leaves you and the town/city liable. What happen after final is a different story, but at least at final it is verified with a witness. CYA$$, don't call for a final unless your hot water has been set. When I do inspections for water heater replacements I put on the inspection tag the water temp setting , I sign it and have the plumber sign it, if someone turns it up and someone gets burned I have a visual proof that the temp was set and approved at legal temp when I was there.


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## plumbdrum (Nov 30, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Hydrotest is okay...
> 
> 
> 
> Air testing...:no:



I agree with you, but unfortunately it's a common testing method and is a approved testing method in the Ma code. Kind of tough to tell a plumber not to do it when my code says it's ok


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

Tommy plumber said:


> Yes we have max. of 120 F. with a max. of 110 F. at any bidets. But the inspectors don't check that as far as I know. They are looking to see if water is on; vacuum breakers are on any outside hose spigots; 2-way outside c.o. is visible and present; toilets are not too close to vanity; water hammer arrestor is under kitchen sink on dishwasher line; etc.


No minimum? Are they not worried about legionella and other bacteria growth? How do you handle dedicated systems for emergency showers? We have to set the water heater temp above 120, knock it down with a mixing valve and have both hot and cold on a recirc to avoid bacterial growth and stagnation.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Hydrotest is okay... Air testing...:no:


 air test on DWV is ok


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

wyrickmech said:


> air test on DWV is ok


Have you asked Charlotte Pipe about that?:whistling2:


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

bct p&h said:


> No minimum?* Are they not worried about* *legionella and other bacteria growth?* How do you handle dedicated systems for emergency showers? We have to set the water heater temp above 120, knock it down with a mixing valve and have both hot and cold on a recirc to avoid bacterial growth and stagnation.












Nahhhh, this is Florida; we welcome bacteria! A little bacteria never hurt anyone......:laughing:



Seriously, enforcement of the plumbing and building codes is lax at best. Most of the inspectors know little about plumbing. A plumbing license is not a prerequisite to getting an inspector's job.

Case in point: just a few weeks ago, I was getting an underground inspection on a re-model. Chatting with the inspector, I mentioned about the laundry stack only being 2" instead of 3" which is now required as opposed to only 2" years ago when the home we were in was built. He was unaware of a laundry stack needing to be 3". He thanked me and said he would check on that in his book. He was a nice guy and it isn't his fault that he lacks plumbing knowledge. I blame the state. But if Florida required a master's license for all plumbing inspectors, they would probably never be able to hire enough inspectors to keep up with all the growth in this state. Statistically, there are thousands of people per day that move to FL. That translates into thousands of new homes and apartments being built. And all that work is with permits that need inspectors. I don't think that they could ever hire enough inspectors to keep up if the state required all of them to be licensed prior to signing up to be an inspector. My two cents worth.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Have you asked Charlotte Pipe about that?:whistling2:


 no need to ask I have been air testing DWV with 5 psi air tests for better part of 35 years. Water testing works but is not allowed from October to March so air tests became popular. Only time we had any ill effects was when the knockout test caps first came out. They were made of a little different plastic and did not bond well.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

wyrickmech said:


> no need to ask I have been air testing DWV with 5 psi air tests for better part of 35 years. Water testing works but is not allowed from October to March so air tests became popular. Only time we had any ill effects was when the knockout test caps first came out. They were made of a little different plastic and did not bond well.


Right! But you now know what Charlotte Pipe says....:whistling2:










Makes an interesting question for your AHJ....


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

mccmech said:


> Regardless of pipe material, on the air tests you stated?


I was working with defective ABS pipe back in the 90's and the inspectors required a air test per UPC, in existing dwv system where the AHJ believes
that there may be leaks they can require a air test 5 psi for 15 minutes
we had a lot of fun the first couple of jobs trying to get the system to hold air
we ended up doing over 90 houses replacing dwv stacks from first floor all the way though 2nd floor baths and roof vents with tile roofs that could not be walked on :whistling2:


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