# Root solid!



## PaulW

Three other plumbers have been out to this residence all three had snaked the drain on multiple return trips. The last one suggested there might be a blockage at the city connection. Three feet from the exterior cleanout we found this on our first trip gravey train is over sorry:


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## Protech

That's pretty common in davenport. Lots of thinwall garbage used on the sewers. I make a decent living ripping that junk out and putting sch 40 back in.


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## Redwood

What were they doing?

Snaking downstream from the clog? :laughing:


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## Protech

This one was from the cable guy's probe rod


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## Plumberman

Good ole SDR 35... Garbage!


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## U666A

Plumberman said:


> Good ole SDR 35... Garbage!


Here's a fun game!!!

Are y'all aware what SDR 28 or SDR 35 means?

No google, no phoning a friend, no street shout out!


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## Protech

Standard Dimension Ratio. Next.


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## Redwood

What tube comes in SDR-9?

Protch don't give it away...
Lets see if U666A knows that one...
Come on no Google...
Be honest... :laughing:


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## markb

Redwood said:


> What tube come in SDR-9?
> 
> Protch don't give it away...
> Lets see if U666A knows that one...
> Come on no Google...
> Be honest... :laughing:


PE?


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## U666A

Redwood said:


> What tube comes in SDR-9?
> 
> Protch don't give it away...
> Lets see if U666A knows that one...
> Come on no Google...
> Be honest... :laughing:


I will be honest Red, I have no idea! But now I will google it!

And Mr. PT,... so what "Standard schmandard ratio..."

WHAT DOES IT MEAN???

'yawn' NEXT!!!

:laughing:

I love you guys!

:laughing:


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## Protech

Red's question: Pex, cpvc and polyethylene. Polybutylene is SDR 11.

U666: The ratio of diameter to wall thickness.



U666A said:


> I will be honest Red, I have no idea! But now I will google it!
> 
> And Mr. PT,... so what "Standard schmandard ratio..."
> 
> WHAT DOES IT MEAN???
> 
> 'yawn' NEXT!!!
> 
> :laughing:
> 
> I love you guys!
> 
> :laughing:


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## Hillside

We uncovered this not to long ago, no plumber could clear the stoppage.... I can see why, it took complete shape of the 4"Y


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## Plumberman

U666A said:


> Here's a fun game!!!
> 
> Are y'all aware what SDR 28 or SDR 35 means?
> 
> No google, no phoning a friend, no street shout out!


Protech beat me to it... All I can say is it's garbage.

Really love it when irrigation guys run SDR 22 and then I have to come back and fix it because they bent the pipe at such an angle that it snaps just before the fitting. 

SDR 35 on sewers blows my mind, if the pipe isn't bed in right, the weight of the backfill will egg the pipe or crush it. As noted huge root infestation once the pipe is compromised.


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## 1703

SDR 35- modern day orangeburg.


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## Widdershins

Colgar said:


> SDR 35- modern day orangeburg.



Ever had to tie into Orangeburg that has been buried for 50+ years?

I finally had a friend who works with stainless steel for a living manufacture ferrules for me to insert into the OB to keep it from crushing when installing shielded couplings.


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## 1703

Widdershins said:


> Ever had to tie into Orangeburg that has been buried for 50+ years?
> 
> I finally had a friend who works with stainless steel for a living manufacture ferrules for me to insert into the OB to keep it from crushing when installing shielded couplings.


I've gotten to the point where if all the orangeburg doesn't come out, I walk. 

I have tried to tie on to it in the past and it came back and bit me hard.

Your ferrule idea sounds interesting, though. Any pics?


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## rvaughnp

> Ever had to tie into Orangeburg that has been buried for 50+ years?


Yep, we typically use a Fernco CT. I add in a bag sacrete. I hate (unshielded) rubber couplings on the horizontal.
Nothing like trying to transition from a round pipe to an egg in ohhh a 1/4".lol
Here in west Texas its hard to get anything commercial related or outside of the traditional residential stuff.


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## Redwood

Around here most of the time when we find Orangeberg they won't let us repair the line...

Kinda senseless anyway, even with those stainless steel ferrules someone mentioned it's bound to break at the end of the repair...

The stuff was junk when it was installed and now it is just worn out junk...


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## Tommy plumber

Orangeburg came from a plant in Orangeburg, NY. That's in Rockland county, where I was born and raised. 

On rare occasion I've encountered that garbage and replaced it with schedule 40 PVC. When I have seen it, the Orangeburg was only outside, never under the slab. The houses were roughed-in with cast iron, then the outside sewer was transitioned to Orangeburg and connected to a clay sewer lateral.

Hard to believe Orangeburg pipe was code approved at one point in time.


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## UnclogNH

I found this little unused section of what we call Bermico because it was made here in Berlin, NH also. I first called it Orangeburg to the locals and no one had a clue what I was talking about :icon_confused:
I have this small section that I carry to show customers what it is so many customers don't have a clue what it is till you show them this little section and are shocked at the poor quality  This little section I carry has got my sewer camera a boost in usage.


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## incarnatopnh

All we are allowed to use around here is SDR 35. We have a ton of Orangeburg in the ground here and I end up digging a couple a month. But here its run from the basement wall all the way to the sewer main. Never thought I'd get into this business to be laying blacktop.


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## Protech

incarnatopnh said:


> All we are allowed to use around here is SDR 35. We have a ton of Orangeburg in the ground here and I end up digging a couple a month. But here its run from the basement wall all the way to the sewer main. Never thought I'd get into this business to be laying blacktop.


Polybutylene is still legal in many areas. You gonna use that too?


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## incarnatopnh

I don't get the choice. If you put sch 40 in the ground they will make you take it back out. They only allow SDR 35. Not my choice. Just like compression or flare fittings are the only types allowed before a water meter. Sweat on a ball valve and you can't get the water turned on.


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## Plumberman

incarnatopnh said:


> I don't get the choice. If you put sch 40 in the ground they will make you take it back out. They only allow SDR 35. Not my choice. Just like compression or flare fittings are the only types allowed before a water meter. Sweat on a ball valve and you can't get the water turned on.


Where are you located?


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## Protech

Seriously. Sch.40 was legal EVERYWHERE last time I checked. Even Chicago (land of the union code writers).



Plumberman said:


> Where are you located?


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## Plumberman

Protech said:


> Seriously. Sch.40 was legal EVERYWHERE last time I checked. Even Chicago (land of the union code writers).


That's why I'm wondering. I've never heard of that, and I still don't know why it's used. It's garbage.


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## incarnatopnh

Central NY. In the six municipalities I work in only one allows sch 40. All others are SDR 35 bedded in #1 stone. F-ed up I know but it is what it is.


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## dayexco

i've put in miles of sdr 35-3034 pipe..at depths to 21' deep..with no more issues/problems as schedule 40...i'll buy into the sched 40 scenario..."if"...#1...you're not talking about cell core. that crap might go well in a wall, should NEVER be buried. you guys like sched 40 sized pipe? want a bullet proof pipe? put in a class 200 pvc water main pipe, same OD, lay it on the road, drive over it, hit it with a sledge, MUCH better than cell core crap.


BTW per OP....those failures had NOTHING to do with it being SDR 35...quite apparent it was a workmanship problem.


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## Protech

What kind of warranty do you typically put on your material and workmanship?

What percent of your work is sewer service (video inspection, drain repair, drain cleaning).


Why is it that it's always sdr 35 that I'm digging up and not sch. 40?



dayexco said:


> i've put in miles of sdr 35-3034 pipe..at depths to 21' deep..with no more issues/problems as schedule 40...i'll buy into the sched 40 scenario..."if"...#1...you're not talking about cell core. that crap might go well in a wall, should NEVER be buried. you guys like sched 40 sized pipe? want a bullet proof pipe? put in a class 200 pvc water main pipe, same OD, lay it on the road, drive over it, hit it with a sledge, MUCH better than cell core crap.
> 
> 
> BTW per OP....those failures had NOTHING to do with it being SDR 35...quite apparent it was a workmanship problem.


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## dayexco

Protech said:


> What kind of warranty do you typically put on your material and workmanship?
> 
> What percent of your work is sewer service (video inspection, drain repair, drain cleaning).
> 
> 
> Why is it that it's always sdr 35 that I'm digging up and not sch. 40?


most jobs we do are for municipalities...and in the contract typically requires a minimum of a 1 yr. warranty. inspection? before the municipality accepts, it must pass a 5 psi air test for 30 mins, we're talking mostly 8"-15" pipe ...a deflection test where we pull a mandrel through it, and a video inspection. locally, mainline contractors are scrutinized MUCH more severe than the plumbers...they "might" require an air test with the building sewer...you don't like sdr 35, in your opinion, why is it failing? like i said, i have miles of the stuff in the ground, ALL tested, some up to 21' deep...wouldn't you agree, that for the most part, being MOST of your new sewer mains in the right of way are sdr 35...that it's a viable product? and the failures that you've seen, well, what i've seen in the pictures that were posted...are 4" lines, most typically a service line, chances are....put in by a service line contractor, or a plumber. it's NOT the pipe's fault...it's the installer's fault


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## Protech

Orangeburg will last 1 year. Your 1 year warranty wouldn't cover a failure if you just set the pipe in front of the fittings without seating them.


OF COURSE YOU HAVE NEVER HAD ANY ISSUES WITH A WARRANTY LIKE THAT!

Also, I could care less about depth. Heck, the deaper you go with that junk the better. The biggest problem with it is if any one molests that pipe in any way it breaks. Driving over it, hitting it with a probe rod, anything really.


We said sch.40, not foam core. I would still put foam core in before I installed sdr 35.



dayexco said:


> most jobs we do are for municipalities...and in the contract typically requires a minimum of a 1 yr. warranty. inspection? before the municipality accepts, it must pass a 5 psi air test for 30 mins, we're talking mostly 8"-15" pipe ...a deflection test where we pull a mandrel through it, and a video inspection. locally, mainline contractors are scrutinized MUCH more severe than the plumbers...they "might" require an air test with the building sewer...you don't like sdr 35, in your opinion, why is it failing? like i said, i have miles of the stuff in the ground, ALL tested, some up to 21' deep...wouldn't you agree, that for the most part, being MOST of your new sewer mains in the right of way are sdr 35...that it's a viable product? and the failures that you've seen, well, what i've seen in the pictures that were posted...are 4" lines, most typically a service line, chances are....put in by a service line contractor, or a plumber. it's NOT the pipe's fault...it's the installer's fault


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## Plumberman

You can't hit a line at 21 foot deep with a probing rod.

Sch 40 is a tougher pipe that SDR 35, you have to do some serious pounding to poke a hole in it with a probing rod or whatever you are sticking in the ground. 

SDR can be compromised by a probing rod, you very rarely if ever find that with Sch 40.

So SDR=Garbage


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## dayexco

SDR=garbage? hmmm..that stands for a diameter ratio, which "can" be applied to schedule 40 pipe also. i'm amazed that for the most part, you guys that are berating sdr35 pipe...bear in mind, it bears the SAME exact chemical DNA as schedule 40, other than having a thinner wall. tell you what, we'll both laya thousand feet of 4" pipe...you can lay your 10' lay lengths of sched 40 solvent weld joints, i'll put in 14' lay lengths of gasketed sdr 35, both let's say...10' deep... compact the excavation with an excavator/packwheel, or vibe plate...i would be willing to bet you a half gallon of crown royal, your solvent weld sched 40, will have a significantly larger failure rate % wise than my gasketed SDR 35. where i REALLY would have to laugh, is if you chose to lay cell core..of course, who am i to have an opinion...i've just messed around with PVC pipe since the late 60's...


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## Widdershins

dayexco said:


> you can lay your 10' lay lengths of sched 40 solvent weld joints, i'll put in 14' lay lengths of gasketed sdr 35, both let's say...10' deep... compact the excavation with an excavator/packwheel, or vibe plate...i would be willing to bet you a half gallon of crown royal, your solvent weld sched 40, will have a significantly larger failure rate % wise than my gasketed SDR 35.


 Solid core Schedule 40 can be purchased in 20' lengths at pretty much any Supply House.

You can keep your Crown -- I'd like my winnings in Knob Creek, if you don't mind.


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## Protech

You can use the same lengths and connection methods for sdr35 and sch40 pvc. The only difference is one is thicker than the other. Now I might be going out on a limb here, but thicker pipe walls usually mean more durable pipe for a given material.

I guess I still have a lot to learn :whistling2:



dayexco said:


> SDR=garbage? hmmm..that stands for a diameter ratio, which "can" be applied to schedule 40 pipe also. i'm amazed that for the most part, you guys that are berating sdr35 pipe...bear in mind, it bears the SAME exact chemical DNA as schedule 40, other than having a thinner wall. tell you what, we'll both laya thousand feet of 4" pipe...you can lay your 10' lay lengths of sched 40 solvent weld joints, i'll put in 14' lay lengths of gasketed sdr 35, both let's say...10' deep... compact the excavation with an excavator/packwheel, or vibe plate...i would be willing to bet you a half gallon of crown royal, your solvent weld sched 40, will have a significantly larger failure rate % wise than my gasketed SDR 35. where i REALLY would have to laugh, is if you chose to lay cell core..of course, who am i to have an opinion...i've just messed around with PVC pipe since the late 60's...


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## dayexco

Protech said:


> You can use the same lengths and connection methods for sdr35 and sch40 pvc. The only difference is one is thicker than the other. Now I might be going out on a limb here, but thicker pipe walls usually mean more durable pipe for a given material.
> 
> I guess I still have a lot to learn :whistling2:


no, i appears that you know it all....but my wager still stands...from what i've experienced, is "most" plumbers are laying 4" sched 40 pipe in 10' lay lengths, have seen a few 20's, but not the norm, and use SW joints. and you must be a LOT stronger than me or anybody that has ever worked for me, or have your probe sharpened? we've never run a probe through any plastic pipe...whether it sched 80,40, 3034 or 2729...but we might be weenies too, i dunno


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## Plumberman

dayexco said:


> SDR=garbage? hmmm..that stands for a diameter ratio, which "can" be applied to schedule 40 pipe also. i'm amazed that for the most part, you guys that are berating sdr35 pipe...bear in mind, it bears the SAME exact chemical DNA as schedule 40, other than having a thinner wall. tell you what, we'll both laya thousand feet of 4" pipe...you can lay your 10' lay lengths of sched 40 solvent weld joints, i'll put in 14' lay lengths of gasketed sdr 35, both let's say...10' deep... compact the excavation with an excavator/packwheel, or vibe plate...i would be willing to bet you a half gallon of crown royal, your solvent weld sched 40, will have a significantly larger failure rate % wise than my gasketed SDR 35. where i REALLY would have to laugh, is if you chose to lay cell core..of course, who am i to have an opinion...i've just messed around with PVC pipe since the late 60's...


Exactly it's a thinner wall.

Down here we run 20 foot lengths, only home de pot and blowes sells 10 ft sticks of Sch 40.... 

I'll lay miles of my Sch 40 against your SDR garbage any day. I'll take a diet coke instead of booze with that please....

You have your opinion and we have ours


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## Protech

dayexco said:


> no, i appears that you know it all....but my wager still stands...from what i've experienced, is "most" plumbers are laying 4" sched 40 pipe in 10' lay lengths, have seen a few 20's, but not the norm, and use SW joints. and you must be a LOT stronger than me or anybody that has ever worked for me, or have your probe sharpened? we've never run a probe through any plastic pipe...whether it sched 80,40, 3034 or 2729...but we might be weenies too, i dunno










I'll try and search my database for the highres pictures. The hole was from a prob rod. Now I know some new construction only guys have a tough time grasping this, but both pvc and cpvc pipe become brittle with age as the plasticizers leach out of the material or brake down. When this happens the pipe becomes brittle like glass. So you know how that sdr-35 pipe bends when step on it or impact it? Well, when it gets a few years of age on it, it doesn't bend anymore, it just brakes.


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## rvaughnp

I had to get in on this one... 
The arguement on wether one pipe is better than the other can be done all day long. But, those that argue on the side of sdr 35 sewer pipe versus pvc sch 40 and the fact they only use sdr and run miles and miles of it are leaving out the critical fact of cost. If you, a sdr utility installer, are bidding against other utility installers, you had better use sdr pipe verses sch 40 pvc (press or foam), The cost of sdr is roughly 1/2 - 1/3 the cost of sch 40 pvc (press or foam). You'd never win any contracts with with that overhead cost.
One final point... I am not sure about which code others use but there is a reason the International Code will only allow SDR to be used as the building sewer and not the building drain. There must be a reason they wouldn't want that under a slab.
Just my thoughts for anyone reading this for info later.


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## dayexco

Protech said:


> but both pvc and cpvc pipe become brittle with age as the plasticizers leach out of the material or brake down. When this happens the pipe becomes brittle like glass. So you know how that sdr-35 pipe bends when step on it or impact it? Well, when it gets a few years of age on it, it doesn't bend anymore, it just brakes.



i googled about the leaching you talked about here, could not find anything about where pvc did that? if you have a few links, i'd be very interested in reading about that. i've dug up 40 yr old pvc, and it had the same...what do i want to say here? plasticity? resiliency as brand new pipe? surely did not seem brittle. i've seen hdpe, pvc, abs...where subjected to years of UV rays...become brittle. if you come across a link or 2, please post them, thanks


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## Protech

A link? How about just going out and doing some plumbing repairs.

It is common knowledge that pvc/cpvc both become brittle due to the leeching and/or break down of the plasticizers. In Europe, they use u-PVC (unplasticized pvc). It is as brittle as glass. Our plasticized PVC state side becomes just like theirs as it ages. 



dayexco said:


> i googled about the leaching you talked about here, could not find anything about where pvc did that? if you have a few links, i'd be very interested in reading about that. i've dug up 40 yr old pvc, and it had the same...what do i want to say here? plasticity? resiliency as brand new pipe? surely did not seem brittle. i've seen hdpe, pvc, abs...where subjected to years of UV rays...become brittle. if you come across a link or 2, please post them, thanks


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## Protech

First try on google. First link. You didn't try very hard when you looked.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Cf...Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=pvc embrittlement&f=false


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## Protech

And another: http://books.google.com/books?id=Xd...Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=pvc embrittlement&f=false


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## rvaughnp

> A link? How about just going out and doing some plumbing repairs.


 kinda harse don't you think. I to have pulled out 10 plus year old pvc to find it as sturdy as the new pipe i was replacing it with. Maybe dayexco and i aren't working in the same environment as you. Or maybe you are basing your fact on flawed evidence. Sorry, but i take offense to the quote as if i haven't been doing repairs for the last 20 years. My back and knees say other wise.
The links you posted either spoke of plastics that were subjected to 500 degree temps or were other types of plastics other than PVC sch 40 pipe or fittings for that matter. If you are going to try and belittle someone, me included, on their hands on experience of the materials they have used, you are going to have to do better than some nonspecific writings on plastics.
I am not saying i haven't seen pvc become brittle, but i have never seen it break "like glass". I do find myself breaking sch 10, i think, irrigation pipe when looking for other buried pipe. It is thin wall but i believe that it breaks more because its supported on all sides and the sharpness of a sharpshooter being slammed into the side of it has an affect on it more so than the wall thickness of lack of plasticizers. 
as your pic below shows a hole through sdr; i would like to see any evidence from sch 40 pvc with a crack that came from a probing rod or better yet a sewer camera video were the pipe can be seen cracked from the inside. I bet i could find some 30 to 40 year cast that is cracked way before i could find pvc pipe in the same.
The plasticizers argument is a good logical argument but it needs more proof. No one with any sense would quite using pvc pipe or fittings by reading the information from the links provided. No offense.
Not to beat a dead horse... but ultimately this argument is going to come down to a simple question of my previous post... money and where the code states it can be used.:thumbsup:


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## Protech

rvaughnp said:


> kinda harse don't you think. I to have pulled out 10 plus year old pvc to find it as sturdy as the new pipe i was replacing it with. Maybe dayexco and i aren't working in the same environment as you. Or maybe you are basing your fact on flawed evidence. Sorry, but i take offense to the quote as if i haven't been doing repairs for the last 20 years. My back and knees say other wise.
> The links you posted either spoke of plastics that were subjected to 500 degree temps or were other types of plastics other than PVC sch 40 pipe or fittings for that matter. If you are going to try and belittle someone, me included, on their hands on experience of the materials they have used, you are going to have to do better than some nonspecific writings on plastics.
> I am not saying i haven't seen pvc become brittle, but i have never seen it break "like glass". I do find myself breaking sch 10, i think, irrigation pipe when looking for other buried pipe. It is thin wall but i believe that it breaks more because its supported on all sides and the sharpness of a sharpshooter being slammed into the side of it has an affect on it more so than the wall thickness of lack of plasticizers.
> as your pic below shows a hole through sdr; i would like to see any evidence from sch 40 pvc with a crack that came from a probing rod or better yet a sewer camera video were the pipe can be seen cracked from the inside. I bet i could find some 30 to 40 year cast that is cracked way before i could find pvc pipe in the same.
> The plasticizers argument is a good logical argument but it needs more proof. No one with any sense would quite using pvc pipe or fittings by reading the information from the links provided. No offense.
> Not to beat a dead horse... but ultimately this argument is going to come down to a simple question of my previous post... money and where the code states it can be used.:thumbsup:


 you have seen 2 separate pictures of actual brakes and receive links for technical articles explaining why they happen. what exactly is it that you need to see to convince you?


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## SewerRat

I think it has a lot to do with location and soil conditions. In areas with high clay soils that shrink and swell and move a lot you probably do have issues. In areas with frost down to 6' you probably will have problems.
I deal mostly with septic systems, but around here in all honesty I see more problems with Schedule 40 than SDR 35. I have come to 
the conclusion that around here it's the careless installers that use Sch. 40 because they think they don't have to bed it 
properly. Every little while we come across a Sch. 40 pipe entering or leaving a septic tank that has settled and has a belly or is 
actually broken. A lot of times there is a break at the tank wall, then one in the bottom of the belly which is the middle of the over-excavation around the tank, and then another where the pipe lays out onto native soil. The guys that use SDR 35 apparently understand proper pipelaying methods because we see very few if any problems with SDR 35.
We don't have difficult soil or weather conditions, so if SDR 35 is installed and bedded properly it gives absolutely zero problems.

And yes, this is what I do all day, every day.


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## 130 PLUMBER

Protech said:


> Seriously. Sch.40 was legal EVERYWHERE last time I checked. Even Chicago (land of the union code writers).


 
Above ground only!!!


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## rvaughnp

> you have seen 2 separate pictures of actual brakes and receive links for technical articles explaining why they happen. what exactly is it that you need to see to convince you?


 and 2 internet articles that don't pertain to sch 40 pvc pipe are supposed to change my mind over 20 years of using the product......??????? nope. I guess i'll just have to see over the next 20 years if your theory comes true. I'll get back to you on this. the point of improper installation is valid. But, i would argue that the same results would happen to sdr if installed in the same way.
My last thought and comment. There is another issue to the installation issue of sch 40 pvc... but it would pertain to environment similar to before mentioned. Freezing would have probably to bigger effect on sch 40 pvc pipe than anything else. This would be why you will see more abs than pvc used in domestic sewer lines up north. ABS will hold up to freezing conditions better than pvc. On that point i would prefer abs over pvc. Just for the record... i am not advocating pvc, i just didn't see the point of anyone taking such a strong stand on one particular pipe used for one particular application (utility lines) when shd 40 pvc pipe wouldn't be used anyway because of cost.


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## Plumberman

You brought up the utility line installations, we don't deal with that, but again you are calling it like you see it and so are we. 

When SDR 35 is installed in my area, it's garbage. 

Mainly as you said it's faulty installation, you hardly ever see it speced in a new build, usually just in storm water piping. 

But again, that's just down here in the swamp, the utility and city guys around here are constantly having issues with it breaking at the tap, probably cause they ain't plumbers.....


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## dayexco

Plumberman said:


> But again, that's just down here in the swamp, the utility and city guys around here are constantly having issues with it breaking at the tap, probably cause they ain't plumbers.....



sched 40, sched 80....3034, 2729, whatever pipe standard you want to name, is probably not the reason those lines are breaking off at the tap...it was probably an installation issue...if we talk in "reality"....for the most part, you plumbers deal with pipe, what? now i'm saying for the MOST part...4' deep or less? installed properly, 2729 would work great, even under your concrete floors...(bear in mind, we install sdr35 20' or so..."under" asphalt, or concrete pavement...and subjected to probably higher psf loads than your schedule 40 is buried 3-4' deep...under some commercial building's floor. sched 40 is " nice" pipe...and i'm sure if that's all you were raised to lay...you'd have the opinions you do, and i appreciate that. at the same token, why waste the time, the additional cost, installing something that isn't necessary? if you want your schedule 40 pipe to fail? i can do that with my method of compaction were it not bedded properly. there's this horse here, laying on it's side, with it's feet up....and there are those here that keep on trying to have intercourse with it. anybody knowledgeable in the trade....would KNOW...most failures come from workmanship issues...not product failures...


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## Plumberman

dayexco said:


> sched 40, sched 80....3034, 2729, whatever pipe standard you want to name, is probably not the reason those lines are breaking off at the tap...it was probably an installation issue...if we talk in "reality"....for the most part, you plumbers deal with pipe, what? now i'm saying for the MOST part...4' deep or less? installed properly, 2729 would work great, even under your concrete floors...(bear in mind, we install sdr35 20' or so..."under" asphalt, or concrete pavement...and subjected to probably higher psf loads than your schedule 40 is buried 3-4' deep...under some commercial building's floor. sched 40 is " nice" pipe...and i'm sure if that's all you were raised to lay...you'd have the opinions you do, and i appreciate that. at the same token, why waste the time, the additional cost, installing something that isn't necessary? if you want your schedule 40 pipe to fail? i can do that with my method of compaction were it not bedded properly. there's this horse here, laying on it's side, with it's feet up....and there are those here that keep on trying to have intercourse with it. anybody knowledgeable in the trade....would KNOW...most failures come from workmanship issues...not product failures...


Your coming across as a douchbag, but none the less if you would read my whole post instead of quoting half of it, I said that most of the time it is faulty installation.


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## Widdershins

dayexco said:


> for the most part, you plumbers deal with pipe, what?


 "You Plumbers"?

Them's fighting words, son.


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## rvaughnp

The "horse" would be "the code" and those trying to have intercourse with it, are those trying to say they know better than the code. 
If SDR was structurally sound... they would allow it under slabs, period. Regardless of the depth. Oh, by the way, PVC is allowed in every situation that SDR is. Per IPC. 
To me there are two FACTS about SDR that won’t push into that camp…
1) It’s not allowed under slabs as per code. (Gee, I wonder why?)
2) Its cost of about a 1/3 of PVC, tells me it’s not the magic bean everyone has been over looking.


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## dayexco

rvaughnp said:


> The "horse" would be "the code" and those trying to have intercourse with it, are those trying to say they know better than the code.
> If SDR was structurally sound... they would allow it under slabs, period. Regardless of the depth. Oh, by the way, PVC is allowed in every situation that SDR is. Per IPC.
> To me there are two FACTS about SDR that won’t push into that camp…
> 1) It’s not allowed under slabs as per code. (Gee, I wonder why?)
> 2) Its cost of about a 1/3 of PVC, tells me it’s not the magic bean everyone has been over looking.


1. i can accept and build per codes...doesn't bother me
2. i'm confused, pvc, costs 1/3 of pvc? the PVC sdr 35 pipe we're laying, has the SAME EXACT chemical composition as PVC sched 40...just the standard diameter ratio is different. 
um, you know what pvc and sdr stand for, right? sdr is a dimension ratio, that ratio can be used in pvc, abs, or steel pipes, whatever...pvc...well, is pvc...it's poly vinyl chloride...and i'm assuming that you and i were both talking about pvc pipe,


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## Protech

Being that you are just a utility contractor and not a plumber (by your own admission), you wouldn't know much about all of the code approved materials that have failed over the years.

Remember orangburg? Remember polybutylene?

The code is just the MINIMUM. It is the bottom line that the government has drawn that you cannot go below.

If you are a bottom of the barrel kinda guy, hey it's legal. So was orange burge. More work for service guys like me in the future. It's just a shame that it will be a the property owners expense.



rvaughnp said:


> *The "horse" would be "the code" and those trying to have intercourse with it, are those trying to say they know better than the code. *
> If SDR was structurally sound... they would allow it under slabs, period. Regardless of the depth. Oh, by the way, PVC is allowed in every situation that SDR is. Per IPC.
> To me there are two FACTS about SDR that won’t push into that camp…
> 1) It’s not allowed under slabs as per code. (Gee, I wonder why?)
> 2) Its cost of about a 1/3 of PVC, tells me it’s not the magic bean everyone has been over looking.


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## Protech

BTW, I have a pile of of cpvc and pvc sitting in a box at the shop. Youtube side by side video comparisons of impact and crush tests are in the works.

You will be eating your words soon. But what do I know, I'm just a plumber.


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## NYC Plumber

My opinion all pvc is crap for underground applications.


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## NYC Plumber

Doesn't anyone installmcast iron anymore?


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## Protech

NYC Plumber said:


> Doesn't anyone installmcast iron anymore?


http://www.plumbingzone.com/f21/rotten-rusted-corroded-cast-iron-thread-13705/

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f8/cast-iron-5381/index2/

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f21/why-iron-sucks-1359/

Unfortunately no. I'm going to run out of houses to repipe here soon because of it.


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## dayexco

so what you're telling me...now bear in mind, i'm a lowly utility contractor...is that under normal circumstances...imagine for a second, that at depths of what you as a highly esteemed plumber install...my guess is 4' or shallower, that...well, hey, let's put it outside, out from underneath the concrete...but 4' deep...both properly installed, bedded, backfilled, compacted...you're telling me, that the sdr 3035 will fail, quicker than sched 40? with proper installation of both products, at the 4' depth, you would say the sdr35 would fail, but not the schedule 40? and this professional opinion would be based on what kind of testing? when you do your youtube, please be explicit in your testing procedure, i.e....type of test equipment, gauging equipment,ambient temp, duration of test, etc. etc....the ole..."hey cletus, i dropped my 8 lb. sledge on this here sunburt piece of sdr 35, at 20 degrees F from 20' high...and it BROKE!...would not be considered very scientific, now would it? we need to invite a PE here, that would be able to professionally explain to you design criteria, and what all the nomenclature that is on the pipe, because it's apparent some of the posters have no clue as to what they mean.


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## rvaughnp

> 2. i'm confused, pvc, costs 1/3 of pvc? the PVC sdr 35 pipe we're laying, has the SAME EXACT chemical composition as PVC sched 40...just the standard diameter ratio is different.


 What is the wall thickness. I do apologize, I was have been refering to SDR35. Nobody has yet to refer to a wall thickness, and 35 is what i thought we where talking about.



> Being that you are just a utility contractor and not a plumber (by your own admission), you wouldn't know much about all of the code approved materials that have failed over the years.


 I am not sure if this was meant for me or not? My statements were against those (utility installers) that thought SDR (35) was superior to sch 40 PVC. My reasoning for saying so is mentioned above. I am a Master Plumber and have been in every phase of plumbing for the last 20 years.



> BTW, I have a pile of of cpvc and pvc sitting in a box at the shop. Youtube side by side video comparisons of impact and crush tests are in the works.


 Don't forget to add in SDR (whatever wall thinkness we are discussing here.)

I have been stateing sch 40 pvc., what type of SDR are we refering to?


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## Protech

See bold text for response



dayexco said:


> so what you're telling me...now bear in mind, i'm a lowly utility contractor...is that under normal circumstances...imagine for a second, that at depths of what you as a highly esteemed plumber install...my guess is 4' or shallower, that...well, hey, let's put it outside, out from underneath the concrete...but 4' deep...both properly installed, bedded, backfilled, compacted...you're telling me, that the sdr 3035 will fail, quicker than sched 40? *YES* with proper installation of both products, at the 4' depth, you would say the sdr35 would fail, but not the schedule 40? *I'm saying the thinner pipe is more likely to fail and will fail before the sch.40* and this professional opinion would be based on what kind of testing? *Mechanical impact testing, crush testing, chemical brake down, UV exposure, root infiltration etc.*when you do your youtube, please be explicit in your testing procedure, i.e....type of test equipment, gauging equipment,ambient temp, duration of test, etc. etc....the ole..."hey cletus, i dropped my 8 lb. sledge on this here sunburt piece of sdr 35, at 20 degrees F from 20' high...and it BROKE!...would not be considered very scientific, now would it? we need to invite a PE here, that would be able to professionally explain to you design criteria, and what all the nomenclature that is on the pipe, because it's apparent some of the posters have no clue as to what they mean. *It's real simple, you drop a weight from the same height on an old piece of pvc and a new piece of pvc. Then, you drop a weight on an old piece of sdr 35 and then an old piece of sch. 40*


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## rvaughnp

> so what you're telling me...now bear in mind, i'm a lowly utility contractor................


To be honest with you guys... i am in the middle. If I were installing utilities i would use SDR(what ever thickness required) That is primarilly what it was manufactured and spec'd for. If i installed building sewer and building drains i would install sch 40 pvc (in the south, which i am.) If i where in the north i would be installing abs. 
- code
- cost
- environment
Would be the factures used to the pipe i used. We can, and are, beat this to death, raise it up again, and beat it to death again. I like brunnets and you like blondes. I like mine skinny, you like our rounded. You will probably see more blondes up north and i will see more brunnets down south. To each his on.
My fingers hurt, see you guys tomorrow.


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## Protech

:laughing:



rvaughnp said:


> To be honest with you guys... i am in the middle. If I were installing utilities i would use SDR(what ever thickness required) That is primarilly what it was manufactured and spec'd for. If i installed building sewer and building drains i would install sch 40 pvc (in the south, which i am.) If i where in the north i would be installing abs.
> - code
> - cost
> - environment
> Would be the factures used to the pipe i used. We can, and are, beat this to death, raise it up again, and beat it to death again. I like brunnets and you like blondes. I like mine skinny, you like our rounded. You will probably see more blondes up north and i will see more brunnets down south. To each his on.
> My fingers hurt, see you guys tomorrow.


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## dayexco

more likely to fail, that's like saying the tower of pisa will fall...it will, we think...just don't know when? not very scientific, now is it? bear in mind, i'm not disagreeing with you...about the thicker wall with the sched 40 makes it stronger...what i AM disagreeing with you is...is installed properly, they will have virtually the same service life. and if you guys are having the failures you claim to have on the board here...i'd rethink my methods of installation...even with your sched 40 products. 

being pvc sdr 35 3034, and sched 40 pvc...have EXACTLY the same chemical composition, btw...it's "break down"...not "brake down"... i'm curious how the sdr 35 would be more susceptible to UV sunburn, or what the chemical composition would have to with with tree root infiltration for that matter? you have properly installed pipe, sealed joints...how do they get in? 

an added note, you may want to submit your testing procedure to the ASCE...i'm sure they'll want you to submit an article for one of their upcoming publications.


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## Protech

See bold for responses.



dayexco said:


> more likely to fail, that's like saying the tower of pisa will fall...it will, we think...just don't know when? not very scientific, now is it? bear in mind, i'm not disagreeing with you...about the thicker wall with the sched 40 makes it stronger...what i AM disagreeing with you is...is installed properly, they will have virtually the same service life. and if you guys are having the failures you claim to have on the board here...i'd rethink my methods of installation...even with your sched 40 products.
> 
> being pvc sdr 35 3034, and sched 40 pvc...have EXACTLY the same chemical composition *Actually, that's not true, but go on.*, btw...it's "break down"...not "brake down"... i'm curious how the sdr 35 would be more susceptible to UV sunburn, or what the chemical composition would have to with with tree root infiltration for that matter? *Simple. Sun burn causes failure quicker in thinner pipe because there is less wall thickness. That SHOULD be common sense. Chemical attack is the same story. Plasticizers leach out of the pipe walls. Thicker walls = longer life. Tree roots. Thicker pipe is less likely to crack when impacted by a cable guys probe rod or anything else which means the roots wont seek out the broken pipe. *you have properly installed pipe, sealed joints...how do they get in? *In the case of roots that put pressure on the pipes due to increasing root diameter with age, thicker pipe will put up a fight longer.* *Since the roots do not invade the pipe until there is a leak, thicker pipe last longer. This ain't rocket science.*
> 
> an added note, you may want to submit your testing procedure to the ASCE...i'm sure they'll want you to submit an article for one of their upcoming publications.


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## Protech

Also, since your argument seems to be that there is no difference with pipe wall thickness, can you explain why it is not legal to use sdr-35 under slabs inside buildings? :whistling2:


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## Widdershins

Isn't all gasketed waste pipe forbidden within the footprint of a building?


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## Protech

I've never seen it done, but I'm not sure it's illegal in FL to use gasketed pipe.

SDR-35 can be glued just the same as sch 40. It's not a gasket vs glue joint issue. It's a sdr-35 vs. sch.40 issue.



Widdershins said:


> Isn't all gasketed waste pipe forbidden within the footprint of a building?


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## Plumberman

Is he kin to Pcplumber?


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## dayexco

you know....after awhile with you it becomes....


"if ifs and buts were candy and nuts...we'd have a merry fugging christmas"...
this conversation reminds me of 25 yrs ago when my son and daughter attempted to come up with convincing arguments as to justify their misbehavior.... it was all ifs and buts...anyway... i'll continue to put in my UV burnt, root enticing laden pipe..carry on my son.

if you'd like, my brother is a CE PE, i can have him log in after you do your testing, you can relate to him your test procedure, and the results. at the same time, being you respect nobody's opinion but your own...you might at least consider his being he is a PE.. of course, who would he be to argue with somebody with 6400 posts?

i'm not into intercourse with a dead horse...niterz 

seriously, if you'd like him to log on when you're done with the testing, i'm confident he'd be more than happy to look at your results.


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## Protech

Sure, why not. I usually get along well with engineers.


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## Plumberman

I love engineers too, they get to draw little straight lines from point a to point b and tell you to figure it out when you have limited space between a/c ducts, fire suppression lines, ceiling heights etc... 

I could care a flying fuke what a utility guy says no matter how long he has been putting 14' lays of SDR 35. 21' deep in the ground. 

I know what I see on a weekly basis, I know that I have never seen SDR 35 speced for underground rough in below slab... 2 foot deep or 100 foot deep, the pipe is sheet in the application I need it for.


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## rvaughnp

> I know what I see on a weekly basis, I know that I have never seen SDR 35 speced for underground rough in below slab... 2 foot deep or 100 foot deep, the pipe is sheet in the application I need it for.


Amen.

Not to mention... this thread started out as a sanitary sewer pipe thread. Somehow we got highjacked by what type of pipe is laid in sewer mains.??????

Oh, by the way. I did apologize for making references to SDR35 vs Sch 40 pvc and thinking i might have been wrong about what you utility guys were refering to... i wasn't http://www.plumbingzone.com/f21/root-solid-13952/
the picture is of SDR35 and it is crap compared to Sch 40 PVC. You utility guys might be using a thicker walled SDR which may have the strength of Sch 40 pvc; but that wasn't what the original post or the original arguement. 

Man this Horse is tired....


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## NYC Plumber

Protech said:


> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f21/rotten-rusted-corroded-cast-iron-thread-13705/
> 
> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f8/cast-iron-5381/index2/
> 
> http://www.plumbingzone.com/f21/why-iron-sucks-1359/
> 
> Unfortunately no. I'm going to run out of houses to repipe here soon because of it.


I disagree with you. Cast iron is a better job for underground imo. 
Any kind of plastic pipe is to light and i wouldn't be confident that it would stay uniform as earth moves, settles, etc over time.
Never seen a pvc house trap either, but im assuming you don't install those either.
You want argue pvc for aboveground residential, ok fine....
I guess only if you like hearing water run through the pipe though...
To each his own


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## Protech

I'd rather hear it than see it......on my floor that is :laughing:



NYC Plumber said:


> I disagree with you. Cast iron is a better job for underground imo.
> Any kind of plastic pipe is to light and i wouldn't be confident that it would stay uniform as earth moves, settles, etc over time.
> Never seen a pvc house trap either, but im assuming you don't install those either.
> You want argue pvc for aboveground residential, ok fine....
> *I guess only if you like hearing water run through the pipe though...*
> To each his own


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## NYC Plumber

Not really sure what that means but ok.
Its not even legal here what do you want me to tell you.


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## Protech

NYC Plumber said:


> Not really sure what that means but ok.
> Its not even legal here what do you want me to tell you.


Think about it for a while. It will come to you.


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## NYC Plumber

I guess im totaly off base by thinking that pvc, can bend, crack, and become back pitched very easily underground.
Your way to smart for me...


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## NYC Plumber

The whole city of new york has it wrong and you are right, i'll let the mayor know to amend the code because you are a plumbing genius.
Your big agrument between sdr 35 and pvc sch 40 was brilliant lol.


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## Protech

Actually, CI will crack before pvc will. I don't see how CI will resist back pitching any better than pvc would. I see just as much back pitched cast iron as pvc.

PVC is not subject to corrosion like cast iron. That's why I included the links to those other threads. Most of the country uses pvc in place of cast iron now. 

It's even starting to replace cast iron in highrises. Time will tell if it's a good idea to use it in highrises. I do have my reservations for it's use in that application.



NYC Plumber said:


> I guess im totaly off base by thinking that pvc, can bend, crack, and become back pitched very easily underground.
> Your way to smart for me...


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## NYC Plumber

Protech said:


> Actually, CI will crack before pvc will. I don't see how CI will resist back pitching any better than pvc would. I see just as much back pitched cast iron as pvc.
> 
> PVC is not subject to corrosion like cast iron. That's why I included the links to those other threads. Most of the country uses pvc in place of cast iron now.
> 
> It's even starting to replace cast iron in highrises. Time will tell if it's a good idea to use it in highrises. I do have my reservations for it's use in that application.


Lol, yeah sure whatever you say...


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## SewerRat

For the record, before anyone rips me to shreds for my one previous post, I agree that 4" PVC Schedule 40 and ABS Schedule 40 pipe are much, much stronger than 4" SDR 35. I don't like PVC Schedule 40 underground because there is no give in a PVC glue joint and I've seen them let loose for whatever reason. Laying it is a breeze though and if you are very meticulous with your joints you'll be fine. ABS Schedule 40 is the strongest joint because it is more of a weld and rarely if ever comes apart. However, ABS absorbs direct sunlight and warps really bad, so I don't like laying ABS either because if I am fighting a minimal slope from building to sewer invert it can be difficult to maintain a perfect grade on a hot day. I am very meticulous with my SDR 35 installs as far as bedding and compaction goes, and again have absolutely never had an issue. Our soil doesn't move much like it does in some other areas, nor do we have much for root problems, so SDR works really well here. I do prefer a gasketed joint over a PVC glue joint because it can absorb minor ground heaves without breaking.

What I meant to say in case I didn't say it was that I think some installers, plumbers, whoever think that "I'm using Schedule 40 so I don't have to be very careful." Then, their installation fails due to workmanship not materials. I'm sure there are some guys out here that are careless with SDR 35 as well, and again those WILL fail. Take the lightweight perforated sewer pipe used in drainfields for instance, it is twice as flimsy as SDR 35 and yet for the most part what I see it stays where it is put because by placing clean rock around it it becomes nicely bedded and cannot move. I never said that SDR was _better _than Schedule 40, but I think that around here the guys who use it know they have to install it like pipe _should be_ installed or it will fail, whereas the guys who dig a rough trench, throw in Schedule 40 with no bedding because "it can take it", and then backfill will get called back. You know the type, I've heard them comment that the trench doesn't have to be perfect as long as you have a spot every 4' or so to support the pipe. That is just carelessness and does not reflect in any way on the material they are using. 

Another thing to keep in mind, we are only talking 4" here, you get up into 6" SDR 35 and the pipe becomes substantially heavier, and by 8" the wall becomes so heavy it is about more than one man can do to even lift a 20' stick.


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## Redwood

rvaughnp said:


> Amen.
> 
> Not to mention... this thread started out as a sanitary sewer pipe thread. Somehow we got highjacked by what type of pipe is laid in sewer mains.??????
> 
> Oh, by the way. I did apologize for making references to SDR35 vs Sch 40 pvc and thinking i might have been wrong about what you utility guys were refering to... i wasn't http://www.plumbingzone.com/f21/root-solid-13952/
> the picture is of SDR35 and it is crap compared to Sch 40 PVC. You utility guys might be using a thicker walled SDR which may have the strength of Sch 40 pvc; but that wasn't what the original post or the original arguement.
> 
> Man this Horse is tired....


There is no thicker walled SDR-35... :laughing:

SDR means standard dimension ratio and the wall thickness is tied to the diameter....

I guess the materials are really coming down to what is best suited to your area...

Kinda like PEX with those brass fittings that are horrors in Las Vegas but absolutely fine in Winter Haven....

Up here 50 - 100 years is not uncommon for cast iron....
Gasketed SDR-35 doesn't do badly at all and I've seen it as deep as 25' on camera nice and round....

Glued SDR-35, Schedule 40 PVC I've seen broken many times...

ABS? I wouldn't even know where to buy it... :laughing:

My thoughts we are deeper and we do have frost...
Maybe the depth keeps the damage down from billy bob with the probe...
Maybe the ground movement from frost breaks the more rigid connections...

*I don't know but, "Whatever material you find works best in your area is what you should be using." <Redwood Said That!* :yes:


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## rvaughnp

Man,


> Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in.


:laughing:


> There is no thicker walled SDR-35... :laughing:
> 
> SDR means standard dimension ratio and the wall thickness is tied to the diameter....


Not exactly sure where i implied different wall thickness' to SDR35? I was refering to different types of SDR (e.g. wall thickness)

Please let me go in peace....


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## Redwood

rvaughnp said:


> Man, :laughing:
> 
> 
> Not exactly sure where i implied different wall thickness' to SDR35? I was refering to different types of SDR (e.g. wall thickness)
> 
> Please let me go in peace....


Don't worry about it! :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Widdershins

rvaughnp said:


> Please let me go in peace....


 No worries.

Go in pieces.


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## Phat Cat

Men :no: 

My pipe is better than your pipe . . . No, my pipe is better . . . My pipe is thicker . . . my pipe can go deeper and holds up . . . your pipe has been mishandled . . . you didn't properly bed your pipe. :laughing:

Are we still talking about plumbing?


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## plbgbiz

PlumbCrazy said:


> ....Are we still talking about plumbing?


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## 422 plumber

Protech said:


> Seriously. Sch.40 was legal EVERYWHERE last time I checked. Even Chicago (land of the union code writers).


I don't know about that. They still use clay tile there. PVC is legal for residential 3 flats and less. I don't think it's okay underground.


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## incarnatopnh

Actually there is one area here that still requires cast under slabs and prefers clay for sewer laterals. If you want to use plastic there they give you a hard time about it.


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## PlumbingTheCape

PaulW said:


> Three other plumbers have been out to this residence all three had snaked the drain on multiple return trips. The last one suggested there might be a blockage at the city connection. Three feet from the exterior cleanout we found this on our first trip gravey train is over sorry:


Gotta love digging up and finding the roots!!!


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## SewerRatz

Lots of towns outside of Chicago want SDR 35 or better, for the building sewer. I always use and install SDR 26 in this case. Now if the trench has the water service in the same trench as the sewer we are required to use approved building drain material, which in most cases is SCH 40, but in some its Cast Iron. Now in Chicago, clay pipe is still king whet it comes to building sewers.

Ok so why don't you all chill out and enjoy a free steak https://outbackfreesteaks.com/ Outback is giving away 1,000,000 steaks hopefully you are not to late for your area.


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## Tommy plumber

NYC Plumber said:


> I disagree with you. Cast iron is a better job for underground imo.
> 
> To each his own


 




Many commercial jobs here specify sch. 40 PVC for below the slab, and cast iron no-hub for all the rest of the bldg sanitary and storm drain.

The reason: PVC will never rust, corrode, etc. And the cast iron above slab is fire-proof as well as it has excellent sound-deadening qualities. 

I have seen cast iron in old homes near the Atlantic ocean that is nearly 80 yrs. old and is in decent shape. Then I have seen cast iron in 30 year old condos on the beach that is split and cracked.


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