# Dear Carpenter,....



## LEAD INGOT (Jul 15, 2009)

Dear Carpenter,
I'm writing in response to the framing on the new house I'm roughing in. In the future would you try to check toilet locations when you are laying out your floor trusses. There were only 3 toilets in this house and I'll be damned if you didn't hit all 3. And when you frame a plumbing wall please look up and see if there is a roof truss running dead center of the entire wall. It makes it difficult to get piping through that. Also when you are nailing your double top plate together, look where the studs are and try to keep your nails by the stud locations, not 3 or 4 nails right in the middle of the stud cavity. Please take this as constructive criticism and if problems like these pop up again in the future I will have to charge you an extra hour labor when I tie a rope around my bumper and the other end around your scrote and see how quick my van is in the 1/4.

Sincerely,
One Pissed Off Plumber.


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## Optimus Primer (May 20, 2009)

Dont forget, stop putting studs in the center of a tub or shower where the valve goes.


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## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

You need to include a pic of a sawzall with your letter.


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## LEAD INGOT (Jul 15, 2009)

house plumber said:


> Dont forget, stop putting studs in the center of a tub or shower where the valve goes.


 No, they got that one right. That was about all.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Call the GC and tell him your about to fire up your chainsaw and the frammer has some patchwork to do:thumbup:.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

LEAD INGOT said:


> Dear Carpenter,
> I'm writing in response to the framing on the new house I'm roughing in. In the future would you try to check toilet locations when you are laying out your floor trusses. There were only 3 toilets in this house and I'll be damned if you didn't hit all 3. And when you frame a plumbing wall please look up and see if there is a roof truss running dead center of the entire wall. It makes it difficult to get piping through that. Also when you are nailing your double top plate together, look where the studs are and try to keep your nails by the stud locations, not 3 or 4 nails right in the middle of the stud cavity. Please take this as constructive criticism and if problems like these pop up again in the future I will have to charge you an extra hour labor when I tie a rope around my bumper and the other end around your scrote and see how quick my van is in the 1/4.
> 
> Sincerely,
> One Pissed Off Plumber.


Amen brother. Amen. you have excercised some demons with that one.:thumbsup:


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## bartnc37 (Feb 24, 2009)

How about framing tub and shower openings to the right size and perhaps leaving a nailer. A 1/4" strong on the opening is one thing, but missing it by 3/4" one way or the other is freaking ridiculous. also this new habit of 8 studs within 3 ft under the kitchen window is getting to be a bit old.


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

LEAD INGOT said:


> Dear Carpenter,
> I'm writing in response to the framing on the new house I'm roughing in. In the future would you try to check toilet locations when you are laying out your floor trusses. There were only 3 toilets in this house and I'll be damned if you didn't hit all 3. And when you frame a plumbing wall please look up and see if there is a roof truss running dead center of the entire wall. It makes it difficult to get piping through that. Also when you are nailing your double top plate together, look where the studs are and try to keep your nails by the stud locations, not 3 or 4 nails right in the middle of the stud cavity. Please take this as constructive criticism and if problems like these pop up again in the future I will have to charge you an extra hour labor when I tie a rope around my bumper and the other end around your scrote and see how quick my van is in the 1/4.
> 
> Sincerely,
> One Pissed Off Plumber.


I feel your pain, it happens here all the time and if they payed attention to the plans it usually shows the water closets on the floor plan, but then again most don't know how to read a tape and it shows!!!





bartnc37 said:


> How about framing tub and shower openings to the right size and perhaps leaving a nailer. A 1/4" strong on the opening is one thing, but missing it by 3/4" one way or the other is freaking ridiculous. also this new habit of 8 studs within 3 ft under the kitchen window is getting to be a bit old.


Damn, I thought that only happened here..



TheMaster said:


> Call the GC and tell him your about to fire up your chainsaw and the frammer has some patchwork to do:thumbup:.


I'd have that fired up while speaking!!


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Thats the advantage I have. I am a licensed building contractor. You will never find nails between the studs in my lock plates (So when you drill holes for the vent pipes you dont hit a nail). You will never hit a joist where the toilet or tub goes. You will find that the head of the tub has been framed just for a mixing valve. And if my layoff happens to fall within these parameters, you will find out the joists have been headed off to allow the toilet or tub to go in. Thats my #1 priority when framing. Just in case I do the plumbing. Same goes for electrical and HVAC. Its called being courteous to other trades. I would not want this BS, so I dont inflict it on others.


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## spudwrench (Sep 15, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> Call the GC and tell him your about to fire up your chainsaw and the frammer has some patchwork to do:thumbup:.


When I was a "cub", my journeyman said, they have the same plans that we do, if it's in the way, cut it out. He had a relationship with the builder and plumbing company, if YOU do not, I would not become the butcher.


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## waldrop (Dec 18, 2009)

*this sounds like they using the same people up there too*

the only time this happens to me is when we rough in a house.


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

Heh :thumbup: Years back I was roughing in a pretty nice house with seven bathrooms. All TGI joists. The framer hit six of the seven toilets with joists. I told him we needed to do something about it, so he says, "Just cut whatever you need to and we'll fix it after!"

So I butchered wood and roughed in my plumbing. I'm pretty sure he never fixed any of them, because late in the rough-in they were still butchered. I brought it to the HO/builder's attention one last time and left till finish. 

These days most of my contractors either use the same well trained framing crew or do their own framing, and they do a pretty good job of staying out of the toilets' and shower drains' way for me.


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## Plumber Jim (Jun 19, 2008)

I have always just hacked out what was in my way and let them fix it. Plumbing rules, Don't forget that. I will tell them what i needed to cut out but i cut it out regardless.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I mark the centerlines of all the WC's on the top of the basement wall with marking paint. That is the only way to get them to miss them. 

Most carpenters don't even know the P pages exist.


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## longplumb (Nov 15, 2009)

Don't you love it when they expect you to get a 3" stack in a 2 x 4 wall :laughing: But who cares, that sheetrock will bend a little bit:icon_wink:


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

longplumb said:


> Don't you love it when they expect you to get a 3" stack in a 2 x 4 wall :laughing: But who cares, that sheetrock will bend a little bit:icon_wink:


I'm forever fighting them about that. Fir that wall out. If they don't do it, and just bend the drywall around the pipe, I get a callback later - "Why does the plumbing make that loud clunking sound?" 

It's a squeak, but ultra low frequency, and with a huge soundboard. It squeaks when it expands, and then it squeaks the other way as it cools down.


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

futz said:


> Heh :thumbup: Years back I was roughing in a pretty nice house with seven bathrooms. All TGI joists. The framer hit six of the seven toilets with joists. I told him we needed to do something about it, so he says, "Just cut whatever you need to and we'll fix it after


I've heard that a few times down here, they have them all fixed by the time they get the framing inspection which happens after all the other trades are inspected.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Last addition/remodel rough we did, I think we cut out more wood than the Brazilians put in! New guy with me says "oh man, this is in the way" I tell him to cut it out. "we cant' do that", he says. After about 10 times, I tell him to shut the f up.:furious: 

We blast alot of wood out of the way, but have good relationships with the gc's and carpenters. They usually realize that if I have to cut it out, they screwed up! I do hate it when I bust a good catspaw pulling nails that aren't supposed to be there, or worse, a 4 5/8" selffeed.

We did a job recently, (first time with a new framer) and I look at the joist layout on the subfloor, and lay out the WC. I see what appears to be a tji directly under the wc. So I call the gc, and start pissing and moaning. He says he'll call the framer, who is still on the job, out front framing a porch. Meanwhile, I go downstairs, and look up  the framer had staggered and added a joist. I quick picked up the phone, too late, dude is coming down the ladder!!! WTF, he say's, "making me look bad to the gc, I know I missed that wc!!"
(turns out they were a first class crew!!)

I had to suck it up that day!!!


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## LEAD INGOT (Jul 15, 2009)

I was doing some houses in a development a few years back and when I pulled up to the house the framers had already started the house next door. They were on floor truss layout and I over heard the carpenter saying," this is why we buy a couple of extra trusses for every house, if we have to shift one to miss a wc then we can add another to give us our spacing". Then he proceeded to measure every wc location and make sure that none of them, or plumbing walls landed anywhere near a truss. I know I've spent alot of years learning other trades key measurements, and when you see other's follow suit it makes for a better project.


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

LEAD INGOT said:


> I was doing some houses in a development a few years back and when I pulled up to the house the framers had already started the house next door. They were on floor truss layout and I over heard the carpenter saying," this is why we buy a couple of extra trusses for every house, if we have to shift one to miss a wc then we can add another to give us our spacing". Then he proceeded to measure every wc location and make sure that none of them, or plumbing walls landed anywhere near a truss. I know I've spent alot of years learning other trades key measurements, and when you see other's follow suit it makes for a better project.


I've run into a few framers like that. I usually ask for their business card and file it. When I'm asked if I know a good framer by a GC, I hand him the card of a guy who I know will make my job easier. Goes for other trades, too. Get referrals the same way. Team players are noticed and appreciated.If we all stroke to the same count, the boat glides through the water.


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## Plasticman (Oct 14, 2008)

I did a beach house a few years back and the lav wall upstairs was directly on top of a space joist. So I asked the framer who was the framing company owner if I could drill through the to band and he said yes that it was fine, would not compromise anything. Well, the builder who use to work for the state in state parks for their construction ( mean ole bast88d he was ) came running up to me raising all kinds of heck. He consulted his " state architect buddy " and architect said it was a no no that it had to be beefed up to repair it but my pipe had to go. Hmmm I thought. So they had to end up putting up a whole 2x4 wall in front of the other wall for my pipes to go through, while the framer, who would not even look at me after that had to skab a 2x12 beside the space joist that he told me I could drill through. 
The builder and I had a serious fallin out about it and I yelled at him just as much as he gave me and I told him to kma and asked for my money and walked of his job. effin framer was entirely to blame.........


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## plumb4fun (Feb 18, 2009)

Nothing hurts a carpenters pride more than telling them, " Without plumbing, this is just a barn"!:laughing:


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