# No pvc for flue pipe vents



## stupid helper (Sep 30, 2012)

I read today that it is against code to run PVC for flue pipe vents.. The PVC is separating and is causing people to get sick from carbon monoxide poisoning.. It might only be on South Carolina where I'm at but you might want to think about it before you do it


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

It is OK for sch. 40 on some condensing boilers. Are they not letting you regardless?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

stupid helper said:


> I read today that it is against code to run PVC for flue pipe vents.. The PVC is separating and is causing people to get sick from carbon monoxide poisoning.. It might only be on South Carolina where I'm at but you might want to think about it before you do it


 Where did you read it from??


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## stupid helper (Sep 30, 2012)

rjbphd said:


> Where did you read it from??


When I got to the shop this morning the boss had some write up about our on the table for everybody to read.. I'll see it I can't find a link for it and put it on here so y'all can read it


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## stupid helper (Sep 30, 2012)

www.plumbingengineer.com/may_12/code.php


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## chuckscott (Oct 20, 2010)

stupid helper said:


> I read today that it is against code to run PVC for flue pipe vents.. The PVC is separating and is causing people to get sick from carbon monoxide poisoning.. It might only be on South Carolina where I'm at but you might want to think about it before you do it


You sure it wasn't cell core they were talking about?


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

stupid helper said:


> www.plumbingengineer.com/may_12/code.php


Not the case 
It used to be most the tankless companies would spout this untruth now it tends to be only Rinnai that is the only tankless without PVC venting capabilities under certain conditions. 

Most boilers manufacturers have a model now that vents with PVC now so it wouldn't be them. 

Ron's continuing to pitch his PVC vent safety system that he's trying to patent and require on all PVC vented appliances. 
All money motivated on his part. 
Ron's writings are only editorials, not code.

Code enforcement usually follows manufacture instructions that have received CSA international safety testing and certification which includes vent systems.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Its the cellaur core that are not allowed.


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## stupid helper (Sep 30, 2012)

ZL700 said:


> Not the case
> It used to be most the tankless companies would spout this untruth now it tends to be only Rinnai that is the only tankless without PVC venting capabilities under certain conditions.
> 
> Most boilers manufacturers have a model now that vents with PVC now so it wouldn't be them.
> ...


10-4 I didn't really read it all the way over this morning.. Just kind of glanced at it.. But i believe you are right..bit it's good to know anyways


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

stupid helper said:


> 10-4 I didn't really read it all the way over this morning.. Just kind of glanced at it.. But i believe you are right..bit it's good to know anyways


Oh I'm right, I know the jerk


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## chuckscott (Oct 20, 2010)

stupid helper said:


> www.plumbingengineer.com/may_12/code.php


From the article:

"I was asked to inspect the installation. I photographed, took temperature recordings and used a multi-gas detector to take readings. The two PVC flue vents were connected to two water heaters that were piped together in the garage of a three-story townhome. The plumber had found that the flue pipes _*in separate joist spaces*_ were completely separated and that what appeared to be carbon monoxide poisoning and oxygen deprivation may have caused the woman’s illness; she apparently has brain damage and is now permanently disabled.

The *PVC flue pipe separations above the drywall ceiling* allowed products of combustion, including carbon monoxide and water vapor, to vent under positive pressure into the house over several years. This caused excessive mold and water damage to the structure. 

_*It appears that PVC flue pipes should not be located in concealed spaces such as the space between a ceiling and a floor deck, near insulation or floor joists or in wall cavities that have no ambient air cooling capability.*_"

I am not sure about where you are at, but I can't recall seeing any PVC running vertically through the roof of a house around here. Not saying that there isn't any around. Every install I have seen is done as close to exterior wall as possible, with max length and bend requirements. 

From what I read it sounds more like a bad install practice more than anything. 

Anybody else seeing something I am missing?


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

I fast read the 'engineer's report' how do the gas applinaces get higher than 140 degrees exhaust when the heater or boiler temps is set at 140 or 180 degrees??? The burners input will be the same regardless of the temp setting.. I think the said house with problems was due to improper installation and he's trying to whitewash it to pvc pipings. 
Granted, there was problems with v vent pipe and CSA and Gama quickly got on it and further research and development made it safer to use the solid pvc pipings within proper installation.


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## chuckscott (Oct 20, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> I fast read the 'engineer's report' * how do the gas applinaces get higher than 140 degrees exhaust when the heater or boiler temps is set at 140 or 180 degrees???* The burners input will be the same regardless of the temp setting.. I think the said house with problems was due to improper installation and he's trying to whitewash it to pvc pipings.
> Granted, there was problems with v vent pipe and CSA and Gama quickly got on it and further research and development made it safer to use the solid pvc pipings within proper installation.


Good point!


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

The family that he referenced in Colorado in a year prior editorial that died was the result of 40' of horizontal PVC vent pipe that not only hadn't been solvent welded at the fittings but also had no hangers or supports..

And they wish to blame the PVC and boiler manufacturer? Well they did but its the contractor and inspectors city paying the suit and serving time.


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## chuckscott (Oct 20, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> The family that he referenced in Colorado in a year prior editorial that died was the result of 40' of horizontal PVC vent pipe that not only hadn't been solvent welded at the fittings but also had no hangers or supports..
> 
> And they wish to blame the PVC and boiler manufacturer? Well they did but its the contractor and inspectors city paying the suit and serving time.


Wow!


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

rjbphd said:


> I fast read the 'engineer's report' how do the gas applinaces get higher than 140 degrees exhaust when the heater or boiler temps is set at 140 or 180 degrees??? The burners input will be the same regardless of the temp setting...


:blink:


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Often flue temps are 20 degrees less that inlet or return water temps. 
Many tankless for instance require upgrading to a higher temp pipe if inlet water (booster operation) or recirc return water is 160 or higher


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## Gettinit (May 9, 2012)

The reason for PVC is because of condensation. Flue gasses will not condense at 160. I think they stop condensing around 145....


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

He makes no mention of category I, II, III or IV appliances in the article.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Tommy plumber said:


> He makes no mention of category I, II, III or IV appliances in the article.


I know he has no right straying into the appliance industry, he's a plumbing engineer. 

Completely clueless about combustion


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

In Canada we can only use S636. It's a special PVC that also comes in a Cpvc for higher temp ratings.


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Catlin987987 said:


> In Canada we can only use S636. It's a special PVC that also comes in a Cpvc for higher temp ratings.


Special?
It's schedule 40 PVC and Sch 80 CPVC with certification stickers on it and 5x the price 

Thank IPEX for that


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> Special?
> It's schedule 40 PVC and Sch 80 CPVC with certification stickers on it and 5x the price
> 
> Thank IPEX for that


The brand name and certification are both called system 636, there are different manufactures


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

IPEX was the first and responsible for the legislation in Canada. But it's still the same plastic we use in US for venting and plumbing just has SLC636 approval stickers on it


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## Catlin987987 (Nov 12, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> IPEX was the first and responsible for the legislation in Canada. But it's still the same plastic we use in US for venting and plumbing just has SLC636 approval stickers on it


 it cuts different and the glues are different then our plumbing PVC


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Catlin987987 said:


> The brand name and certification are both called system 636, there are different manufactures


They call it a "system" it's still just PVC & CPVC pipe fittings and cement 
Same temp ratings as plumbing PVC

http://www.ipexinc.com/Content/Prod...ketId=15&MarketSegmentId=3&LanguageCode=en-CA


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Catlin987987 said:


> In Canada we can only use S636. It's a special PVC that also comes in a Cpvc for higher temp ratings.


It's just rebranded of the same old pipe ...

A real crook of crap if you ask me ...

It all started that the manufactures did not have a specific pipe just for venting heating equipment ... More or less they were saying that the plumbing pipe was only rated for plumbing..

Even a bigger crook of crap is the eliminate of ABS pipe for venting..

ABS pipe has a higher temp rating than PVC....
So what hell was up with that....

So we now only got PVC and CPVC system 636 rated pipe for venting heating equipment ...

Scam if you ask me .....


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## Plumbus (Aug 4, 2008)

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/126271/Plastic-Vent-Pipe-for-High-Efficiency-appliances


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

OldSchool said:


> It's just rebranded of the same old pipe ...
> 
> A real crook of crap if you ask me ...
> 
> ...


 
Exactly, they felt if it was a certified as a system installers would use the correct pipe, fittings and solvents.

Canadian consumers got the real shaft on added costs


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## 6th Density (Nov 29, 2010)

rjbphd said:


> I fast read the 'engineer's report' how do the gas applinaces get higher than 140 degrees exhaust when the heater or boiler temps is set at 140 or 180 degrees??? The burners input will be the same regardless of the temp setting.. I think the said house with problems was due to improper installation and he's trying to whitewash it to pvc pipings.
> Granted, there was problems with v vent pipe and CSA and Gama quickly got on it and further research and development made it safer to use the solid pvc pipings within proper installation.


I recently took a class at Rinnai for level 3 certification. Their main gripe with the use of PVC over their recommended *high dollar* "Ubbink" system is that their water heaters "can possibly" malfunction aside from their fail-safes, which "can possibly" create a rise in temp that "can possibly" reach a temp way over the PVC max of 158 degree's.

So I see their point on the issue of safety and lawsuits. They are recommending something so they don't get sued. They aren't going to get hit for it. They "told you so." 

For the record I'm not on any side. I'm just letting you know what I heard straight from the horses mouth at Rinnai.


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## AWWGH (May 2, 2011)

In our area we've been doing the exhausts with CPVC for about two year(we did it in SCH40 before this). I thought most manufacturers were specifying CPVC for exhausts on condensing systems now?


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## Michaelcookplum (May 1, 2011)

AWWGH said:


> In our area we've been doing the exhausts with CPVC for about two year(we did it in SCH40 before this). I thought most manufacturers were specifying CPVC for exhausts on condensing systems now?


Cpvc? What size for exhaust?


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

ZL700 = Owning this thread

I am very impressed with his knowledge......


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Very cool
Ya that's my job or will be even more so
2:29 am for me what are you doing up at 4?

Or

Da**et you sucked me back in, I thought I was out


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

TallCoolOne said:


> ZL700 = Owning this thread
> 
> I am very impressed with his knowledge......


No sense sucking up now... Elvis has left the building! :laughing:


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> Very cool
> Ya that's my job or will be even more so
> 2:29 am for me what are you doing up at 4?


It's 5:30 here... I sleep about 3 out of 5 nights anymore because I punished by brain and body for years and then abruptly stopped.
What's your excuse? :laughing:


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## ZL700 (Dec 8, 2009)

Out at the tittie bar doing my job, time for bed, 9am flight to catch back to Texas


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

ZL700 said:


> Out at the tittie bar doing my job, time for bed, 9am flight to catch back to Texas


 See ya at the B.U.S.


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## TallCoolOne (Dec 19, 2010)

U666A said:


> No sense sucking up now... Elvis has left the building! :laughing:


:laughing:

I just found it comical how people read something and think it is the gospel, and then passes it on thier employees.

Too many sheep and not enough leaders........


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## bct p&h (Jan 19, 2013)

What's wrong with going by what the manufacturer says to do? 
Burnhams Alpine comes with a chunk of sch 80 cpvc that you're supposed to use and after that you can go to sch 40 pvc.
Naviens combi is 6' if I remember correctly before you can go from the sch 80 cpvc to sch 40 pvc.
Around here inspectors go by whatever the manufacturer says in the install instructions. It covers them if anything does go wrong and if you do it the way they tell you in the book it should cover you if anything goes wrong. 
It's all a bunch of crap anyway. I've never seen a piece of solid core sch 40 pvc fail on a residential boiler. What I'm really worried about is that pollypro stuff they've been pushing. It feels like junk. Looks like all they did was paint some sch 10 sdr and say it was OK to vent boilers with.


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## Team BP (Feb 12, 2011)

I do a lot of commercial boiler installs and in the last year every high effiency boiler we put in is vented in schedule 80 cpvc. We don't even mess around with schedule 40 any more there has been to many problems here in Mass. I personally went to a building to do some other work and there was 2 lochinvar kbn 600 flued right up the side of the building about 10' and the exhaust pipe was like a light brown color and it was only there for 2 years. But only time will tell. When I put in boilers on the side sched 80 is what I use. I just don't see PVC lasting as long as it does for Dwv for what it is intended for. 
I swapped out a 10yr old Lennox furnace today for a carrier and the secondary heat exchanger was completely plugged full of deposits and the 2" PVC that went straight up through the roof was broken in the finished soffit going into the tenants unit above it for who knows how long and it didn't trip any CO's but luckily there was enough air moving in it no one got sick.


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