# suds problem



## Va. Plumber

I am dealing with a 10 story building that is fairly new. They have been having laundry suds backing up from day one into a couple units at the bottom. I have already repiped some lines to create a "suds zone" and still having problems. The last time I was there I opened a cleanout and noticed a very strong wind traveling upstream through the pipe that I assume is coming from city sewer, the cleanout is near the exit of the building. Of course I can't see relief vents due to walls and ceilings and nobody wants their new condo ripped apart. There is relief vents shown on the blueprints. I was wondering why there is such a strong positive pressure coming upstream, constantly, and is that causing the suds to back up. This pressure is there even with very little water going down the drains. I don't think a P.A.P.A. is the answer as this pressure is always present and not from "positive transients". Any thoughts would be welcome. Already snaked and camera the lines, everything is clear.


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## Ron

How is your suds relieve designed there, here we are required to have no fixtures connected within 8' in all direction from which it connects to. This is only for 3 stories and up.


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## Va. Plumber

Ron, this is fairly complicated to put into text but I'll try. By the way, the suds are backing up into the bathroom, not other laundry rooms. The main laundry stack comes down to basement ceiling, goes horizontal for approx. 25', then drops down 1 more level again before going horizontal again and leaving the building. I have the bathroom drain lines tied into near the end of the horizontal, before the 1 more level down, it used to be tied in near the base of the stack. I thought this would take care of it.


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## ROTOR KING

Va. Plumber said:


> Ron, this is fairly complicated to put into text but I'll try. By the way, the suds are backing up into the bathroom, not other laundry rooms. The main laundry stack comes down to basement ceiling, goes horizontal for approx. 25', then drops down 1 more level again before going horizontal again and leaving the building. I have the bathroom drain lines tied into near the end of the horizontal, before the 1 more level down, it used to be tied in near the base of the stack. I thought this would take care of it.


 I had the same suds problem. It didn t drop to another level,but long runs of horizontal pipe.I put in at one end of the cleanout,a firemens hose,and let it run,and cleaned out all the rest with the jetter. It was our third time back,so I cleaned those lines for 8 hours.They told me I solved the problem.Im figuring years of soap suds dried up in the horizontal piping.


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## jbk4001

When you tie into a stack with a fixture that creates suds you should do the following: 
A) Make your tie –in away from any offset (in the stack) that is greater then 45 offset.
B) If you have no choice but to make the connection to a stack that is offset you need to stay 10 pipe sizes up stream of it or 40 pipe sizes down stream of it. 
C) In addition a relief vent between the vent stack and the sanitary stack (between the 5th and 6th floor). Would help with this matter.

Hope this helps


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## Wethead

Nice advice


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## WestCoastPlumber

Try installing a running trap on the main between the building sewer and the city tie in, this will help with the windy sewer :thumbsup: Make sure u bring the cleanout to grade. You may tied on a high volume city main. Run your camera all the way down or check with the city public works dept.

Terrible problem to deal with once the walls are up. UPC says 8' tie in on suds fixtures.

Tell them drywall replacement is cheaper then a new place to live


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## Wethead

All I know is if you put a bottle of tide in a swimming pool you will have suds


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## 1205blazer

we are having the same thing happen in 3 or 4 buildings in dc also i am wondering if the sovent system has something to do with it


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## PLUMBER_BILL

WestCoastPlumber said:


> Try installing a running trap on the main between the building sewer and the city tie in, this will help with the windy sewer :thumbsup: Make sure u bring the cleanout to grade. You may tied on a high volume city main. Run your camera all the way down or check with the city public works dept.
> 
> Running trap ??? Then also a Fresh Air Inlet! Without the fresh air how would you get rid of the air between the body of water in the trap and the volume of water coming down the drain?


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## Master Mark

*running trap*



PLUMBER_BILL said:


> WestCoastPlumber said:
> 
> 
> 
> Try installing a running trap on the main between the building sewer and the city tie in, this will help with the windy sewer :thumbsup: Make sure u bring the cleanout to grade. You may tied on a high volume city main. Run your camera all the way down or check with the city public works dept.
> 
> Running trap ??? Then also a Fresh Air Inlet! Without the fresh air how would you get rid of the air between the body of water in the trap and the volume of water coming down the drain?
> 
> 
> 
> I thought about posting about a runing trap too.. we still see them on occasion.
> 
> wont all his revents in the system work as the fresh air inlets if he decides to install a runing trap??? Their should not be that much volume of water going down that stack to be a problem if it is properly re-vented..
> 
> It sounds like he already has a wind tunnel comming back from that sewer and it has got to be blasting out the roof vents ...
> 
> it seems like a reasonable idea,
> if for no other reason just to keep the stink down up on the top floors of the building and in case any toilet seals come loose some day...
> 
> or maybe not...
Click to expand...


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## Jcarr

*Suds back up*

Does the condo have a two or single pipe drainage/vent system? If single pipe is it a provent or sovent system?


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## ILPlumber

Jcarr said:


> Does the condo have a two or single pipe drainage/vent system? If single pipe is it a provent or sovent system?


 
Intro please. www.plumbingzone.com/f3


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## markb

Delt with a simmilar issue a while ago. Auxilliary stacks were not installed and the basement bathrooms were connected too close to the bottom of the stack (containing suds). Rule of thumb here for high rises is your first horozontal connection should be 10' away from the stack. 

No one wanted to spend money, so to solve the problem we installed check valves on the fixture outlet pipes for the sinks. Temporary solution that is still working.


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## jbk4001

markb said:


> Delt with a simmilar issue a while ago. Auxilliary stacks were not installed and the basement bathrooms were connected too close to the bottom of the stack (containing suds). Rule of thumb here for high rises is your first horozontal connection should be 10' away from the stack.
> 
> No one wanted to spend money, so to solve the problem we installed check valves on the fixture outlet pipes for the sinks. Temporary solution that is still working.


This was from a year ago....I think he got it:thumbsup:


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## IRA L GRAND

*suds zones*



va. Plumber said:


> i am dealing with a 10 story building that is fairly new. They have been having laundry suds backing up from day one into a couple units at the bottom. I have already repiped some lines to create a "suds zone" and still having problems. The last time i was there i opened a cleanout and noticed a very strong wind traveling upstream through the pipe that i assume is coming from city sewer, the cleanout is near the exit of the building. Of course i can't see relief vents due to walls and ceilings and nobody wants their new condo ripped apart. There is relief vents shown on the blueprints. I was wondering why there is such a strong positive pressure coming upstream, constantly, and is that causing the suds to back up. This pressure is there even with very little water going down the drains. I don't think a p.a.p.a. Is the answer as this pressure is always present and not from "positive transients". Any thoughts would be welcome. Already snaked and camera the lines, everything is clear.


 i thought sud zones exist at the base of waste and vent stacks;including at changes in directions in the house drain.installing a suds relief vent and running same to a non pressurized area is a solution but it involves opening of walls.you created a suds zone;what does that mean?the stacks create a negative pressure related to their height;(i.e. A chimney affect);is this the wind?i am wrestling with a similar problem in queens ny at a 32 story building.i am able to relocate the lowest apt to a two story stack picking up garage floor drains.the base of the laundry stack for 50 washing machines was loaded with grease which we cleaned.i think the suds form in the suds zones due to air under pressure that is not vented properly #1 and is then forced back up the waste and vent stacks along the sides of the piping causing the grease to froth,that is;form suds.if properly vented then the waste and vent system should be self cleaning.i think that the yoke vents weren't installed in my building.


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## Mykeeb33

Does anyone know of a good engineering source of reading for "suds pressure zones".


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## Tommy plumber

*Hello! Introduction Requested* * Ira L. Grand *
An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/.

The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession)

Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field.

This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is.

We look forward to your valuable input.


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## Redwood

Tommy plumber said:


> *Hello! Introduction Requested* * Ira L. Grand *
> An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/.
> 
> The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession)
> 
> Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field.
> 
> This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is.
> 
> We look forward to your valuable input.


Uhhh Tommy Ira was here once in 2011...
I don't think he's coming back to post an intro...


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