# HELP with correctly spotting y's



## plumbin8869 (Dec 8, 2010)

it's difficult to explain what i'm looking to find out with words, but... i know the correct way to spot a way to hit an opening or drop in a line that is to the right or left of the main line i'm running. when i say correct, i mean without holding fittings in the air or measuring diagnally, i understand how to put a wye straight onto the centerline of an opening. what i dont know how to figure out is... if the wye is spotted to far back from the opening or drop... how do you find the correct travel piece with a 45 on it? i'm referring to a horizontal line, that branches off with a wye to pick up a fixture. i'm in the spot now, where the current wye fitting, or possibly a new installation where i cant put the wye to hit the opening straight out of the branch. so the wye is too far back to be a straight shot and must be put on center with a travel piece and a 45. how do i measure for this piece with the 45 on it? i appreciate any help you could lend... thank you.


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

*Hello! Introduction Requested* 
An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/.

The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession)

Post an intro and tell our members where you are from, yrs in the trade, and your area(s) of expertise in the plumbing field.

This info helps members who are waiting to welcome you to the best plumbing site there is.

We look forward to your valuable input.


----------



## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

Me thinks you are not a plumber


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Complex question for a simple answer


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

slickrick said:


> *Hello! Introduction Requested*
> An intro is requested from all new members. In case you missed it, here is the link. http://www.plumbingzone.com/f3/.
> 
> The PZ is for Plumbing Professionals ( those engaged in the plumbing profession)
> ...


Haha!


----------



## plumbin8869 (Dec 8, 2010)

very helpful... thanks !


----------



## chuckscott (Oct 20, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> Complex question for a simple answer



Wye, wye, wye!:huh:


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

plumbin8869 said:


> very helpful... thanks !


Come again.... nice doing buisness with you


----------



## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

plumbin8869 said:


> very helpful... thanks !


I guess he found the answer :yes:


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

plumbin8869 said:


> very helpful... thanks !


I didn't realize we were obligated to help you................


----------



## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

Choctaw said:


> I didn't realize we were obligated to help you................


Of course, we are plumbers spending time in leisure off the clock. Why shouldn't we try and decipher and answer a question from a diy'er, so he can avoid hiring a plumber? Makes perfect sense.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I just eyeball it....

Measuring tapes are way overrated....:laughing:


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

plumbpro said:


> Of course, we are plumbers spending time in leisure off the clock. Why shouldn't we try and decipher and answer a question from a diy'er, so he can avoid hiring a plumber? Makes perfect sense.


Don't get me started on doing things to avoid hiring a lic. competent plumber...........I could go on for hours after today and two weeks ago...slugs.


----------



## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

This is what I looked like reading that


----------



## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

wye, not use a combo then it will be a straight line and save so much time and so many 45s and brain cells.:thumbup:


----------



## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

easttexasplumb said:


> wye, not use a combo then it will be a straight line and save so much time and so many 45s and brain cells.:thumbup:


I like bringing them in at a 45 sometimes


----------



## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

me to, but we are not the one asking how to do it. I think he maybe overthinking this pluming stuff a little bit.


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Not sure I can remember the last time I used a true combo.......


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

He is a second yr. guy. geesh


----------



## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

It's cheaper to buy a Wye and a st 45 than to buy a comby. Plus then you have the versitility of going either way. I never use a comby.


----------



## plumbpro (Mar 10, 2010)

Choctaw said:


> Not sure I can remember the last time I used a true combo.......


I never use a "combo", inventory is simpler and you are more accurate with wye's and 45's or st 45's.

As for the original question at hand, I'm still not satisfied enough with the intro to give an answer. There back on topic


----------



## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> It's cheaper to buy a Wye and a st 45 than to buy a comby. *Plus then you have the versitility of going either way*. I never use a comby.


So are you you saying you like to have the choice of going either way as the mood strikes? :laughing:


----------



## plumbin8869 (Dec 8, 2010)

i apologize for getting off on the wrong foot with everyone... that was surely not my intention. i've filled out a bit of info in the introduction page if you want to check it out.


----------



## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Pipe Rat said:


> So are you you saying you like to have the choice of going either way as the mood strikes? :laughing:


 
thats a :furious: burn :laughing:


----------



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

easttexasplumb said:


> thats a :furious: burn :laughing:


Got Ice?


----------



## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

ask youre journeyman :whistling2:


----------



## plumbin8869 (Dec 8, 2010)

in the particular case i had the other day, i couldnt use a combo. i had multiple drops to pick up, in a tight space. the way the cores lined up, there was no other way to pick some of them up other than with a wye. and plumbworker.... my "journeymen" is the guy having me hold up 45's on ladders so he can get a measurement... if i watched the guy spot the wye perfectly and do the math, i surely would've found out how, but in my case- i dont work with anyone who knows how to do it correctly.


----------



## plumbin8869 (Dec 8, 2010)

i was wrong in my original post about the location of the wye. if the wye were too far back, it'd just be a normal set. what i meant to say was, if the wye is too far forward for the branch to line up perfectly, how would you find the length of the travel with the 45 on it? too far forward of the opening to go straight at it, but not far enough to miss the opening...


----------



## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Go to the pool and spa place and get some of that flexible pipe they use on hot tubs and whirlpool baths.


----------



## RW Plumbing (Aug 16, 2010)

Pipe Rat said:


> So are you you saying you like to have the choice of going either way as the mood strikes? :laughing:


 I walked into that one didn't I? :whistling2:


----------



## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

RW Plumbing said:


> I walked into that one didn't I? :whistling2:


:yes:


----------



## speerk (Apr 11, 2010)

Do a search for *45 Offset Formula *

http://books.google.com/books?id=0fw7jXgRiHoC&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=how+to+figure+45+degree+offset&source=bl&ots=KOzKhSzAvb&sig=lGSyO8ZpTxsHV8I3qcIMT7ggsxM&hl=en&ei=gR8ATdbJIoWClAfd_YngCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=how%20to%20figure%2045%20degree%20offset&f=false


----------



## Castiron (May 4, 2010)

Hi there,

Not sure if I really understand the exact scenario - maybe you can draw it if I get it wrong.

The formula for the 45 angle is 1.414 x either the offset or the advance (It's a perfect triangle so they both are the same) from this take away your fitting allowance and allowance for MJ's and you should have the travel.

If you are using a wye with a 45 the start of the triangle should be the 45's fitting allowance added to the wye - that should be the corner of the triangle. Personally I put the fittings together on the floor take my measurements and transfer to the layout on the ceiling - but there are also some charts that have the allowances on them - try the fitting manufacturer. I have not seen many guys trying to hold up 4" cast on the ceiling to gauge layout - but to be honest being new to this trade I ain't seen much anyways.

Hope that helps - good luck.


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Time for a math lesson: When you have a triangle with a 90 degree corner, and both sides adjacent to the 90 are the same length, then the other (2) angles will always be 45 degrees. 

I used to snap chalk lines on the ceiling in essence scribing that triangle overhead. It's difficult to write here, but with that triangle on ceiling, you'll know exactly where to drill for the hangers. Then measure the chalked 45 degree line and take off for the fittings. Perfect every time.


----------



## plumbin8869 (Dec 8, 2010)

Thank you Speerk, Cast iron, and Tommy... i believe i have a better idea now of what needs to be done. if i've got 12" from the center of my wye to the center of my opening ( my wye is 12 back from the opening)then 12 x 1.41 would give me a c-c measurement. my c-c set from my horizontal line to the opening could be 24" say, but the wye was spotted too far forward. it's 12" back from my opening, instead of 24" to hit the opening straight on. so 12 x 1.41 - my 8th bend and wye and you've got the travel... do i have that correct?


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

That is correct.


----------



## plumbin8869 (Dec 8, 2010)

Awesome  Thank you to all that would lend a hand. this will help me out alot at work and make life easier... i appreciate the help.


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

plumbin8869 said:


> Thank you Speerk, Cast iron, and Tommy... i believe i have a better idea now of what needs to be done. if i've got 12" from the center of my wye to the center of my opening ( my wye is 12 back from the opening)then 12 x 1.41 would give me a c-c measurement. my c-c set from my horizontal line to the opening could be 24" say, but the wye was spotted too far forward. it's 12" back from my opening, instead of 24" to hit the opening straight on. so 12 x 1.41 - my 8th bend and wye and you've got the travel... do i have that correct?


 
I don't think you have it. 1.414 is used when measuring in between (2) parallel lines. The offset travel will be slightly longer than the measurement in between the parallel lines. This is difficult to explain without drawings.

When using the method I described with the chalk lines, your fittings and fixtures will be points on or near the chalk lines in the triangle. If you can envision the triangle I described on the ceiling, and then snap some chalk lines, you will know exactly where the 45 degree fitting goes, you can measure the pipe (taking off for fitting allowance) and you'll set your hangers on the chalk line since the chalk line will be centerline of pipe and fittings. Once you master this technique, you'll amaze the guys on the job who hold a 45 in one hand while on the ladder and their tape measure in the other hand while trying to get a measurement. You can't eyeball a 45 in mid-air. That is for hacks.


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I'll stay out of it, I thought he was 12" parallel. Its hard for me to picture the exact scenario.


----------



## plumbin8869 (Dec 8, 2010)

ok - in the scenario im trying to describe, my horizontal main run is running north and south. the line or opening i'm trying to hit is west of the main run. the c-c measurement between opening and my run is 24". the wye would have to be 24" back from the opening to hit it straight on. but it's not. it's 12" from c-c. so 12" x 1.41 would give me my travel piece. minus my 8th bend and wye....


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

slickrick said:


> I'll stay out of it, I thought he was 12" parallel. Its hard for me to picture the exact scenario.


 
I think I'll stay out of it too, I don't think I even know what setup he is describing. I can't picture his exact scenario either.


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I don't think you can get there from here. If it's 24" cxc it is going to be roughly 36" cxc on a 45 degree angle.


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

OK, I think I have the picture. The y is to close to make a 45. So the 12x1.41 cxc will let him make a combo.


----------



## plumbin8869 (Dec 8, 2010)

my wye is too far forward... so i need a travel piece and a 45 to get on center with the opening. a combo would be the ideal fitting to use, but due to layout of cores, a combo cannot be used. the opening and my horizontal run are perpendicular to one another.


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Where is HP when we need him to draw something? A y and a 45 then turn up into the hole with a 1/4 bend . Is that right?


----------



## plumbin8869 (Dec 8, 2010)

yes, or a trap or whatever fixture it may be. the travel out of the wye to the 8th bend brings you on center of the opening, then whatever your e-c may be


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Put a 45 in the wye branch but going the other way, in other words to get the branch going parallel with the main run, ( in effect you're making the wye into an upright wye which looks like the letter 'H') then when you get to the opening you're trying to pick up, use a long radius sweep to get to the opening you're trying to pick up. I hope you can follow this.


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I have a picture of you forming a offset that would look like a combo configuration. If that is so. Then yes, 12x 1.41 - your take offs


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Tommy, I think he is too close for a H fitting.

Are you anywhere in Texas? I will come help you with it.


----------



## plumbin8869 (Dec 8, 2010)

that's correct rick. it ends up being a combo, just with a long travel piece in it. it accomplishes the same task as a combo - to change direction 90 degrees, just with different fittings...


----------



## plumbin8869 (Dec 8, 2010)

lol... i appreciate that Rick, but i'm in chicago.


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

plumbin8869 said:


> that's correct rick. it ends up being a combo, just with a long travel piece in it. it accomplishes the same task as a combo - to change direction 90 degrees, just with different fittings...


Alright then, 1.41 , takeoffs, and you are off and running. Is this PVC or CI.?


----------



## plumbin8869 (Dec 8, 2010)

it's C.I. lead and oakum. i had a lav, carrier, and fd all bundled into this 1 corner of a ceiling that was full of obstructions, so i had to place the wye ahead of where it should've been, use a travel piece to a 45 to get on center, then a 1/4 bend


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

plumbin8869 said:


> it's C.I. lead and oakum. i had a lav, carrier, and fd all bundled into this 1 corner of a ceiling that was full of obstructions, so i had to place the wye ahead of where it should've been, use a travel piece to a 45 to get on center, then a 1/4 bend


Well, this will be a good place to start using this formula. PVC would not be the best situation.


----------



## plumbin8869 (Dec 8, 2010)

Thanks again Tommy and Rick.. i appreciate all the help


----------



## Pipe Rat (Apr 5, 2009)

This must be what you mean. Its still just simple 45 degree math.


----------



## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Why didn't you do that an hr. ago? :laughing:


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Pipe Rat said:


> This must be what you mean. Its still just simple 45 degree math.


 
8869, do you see the red lines in Pipe Rat's drawing? (thanks Pipe Rat) That is the 90 degree triangle with the (2) sides adjacent to the 90 degree angle that have the same measurement I was talking about earlier. If you snap those chalk lines on ceiling, you'll know exactly where the 45 fitting goes, as well as where hangers go. Now you can see it. I have to learn how to make sketches on here.


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

If you extend the short blue line in sketch up to the 45, and down to the main trunk line, you will have a triangle with (1) 90 degree angle, (2) sides the same length, giving you (2) other angles that are always 45 degrees. Then you know where to put the 45.

If your wye branch fitting is different than his sketch, simply adjust the triangle in your particular case. With a triangle snapped in chalk on ceiling, you will ALWAYS know exactly where the 45's go with out any guesswork. The triangle MUST have (1) 90 degree angle with the sides connected to the (90) measuring the same length, then the other (2) angles will be 45 degrees each.


----------



## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

These may prove helpful....

http://charlottepipe.com/Documents/DimensionalCatalogs/Cast_Iron_Pipe_Fittings_Eng.pdf

http://charlottepipe.com/Documents/DimensionalCatalogs/Plastic_Pipe_Fittings_DC-DWV(609).pdf


----------



## 1703 (Jul 21, 2009)

Get yourself a copy of this

www.pipefitter.com/existing_php/lind.php

Of course if your a dumb plumber such as myself, you may need a fitter to explain it....


----------



## nhmaster3015 (Aug 5, 2008)

My gawd 7 pages for A squared plus B squared = C squared minus the make in or 1.41. x run or rise minus the make in :whistling2:


----------



## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Plumbin 8869, did we help? Let us know what you did. 

I also used to snap chalk lines on the floor of commercial bldgs. then use a laser to transfer the lines to the ceilings (cuz ceilings were like 11 feet high). Your journeyman should know how to install a 45 and if not surely the foreman should know.


----------



## sheeptown44 (Oct 31, 2010)

i have been with more plumbers than I can count who had a hard time doing simple math. On the other hand the Majority were purty dang good at it.


----------



## plumbin8869 (Dec 8, 2010)

pipe rat's drawing is exactly what i was trying to explain in words...thank you pipe rat. the answer i was after has been answered- whatever distance the center of your wye is back from the center of opening, that is the number multiplied by 1.41, to give you a c-c measurement between wye and 8th bend. whatever the distance back from opening wye is, that forms 1 leg of a right triangle, therefore the other leg of triangle must be the same(using 45's), and your hypotneuse is the travel...Thanks alot to all that helped out, i have a much better understanding of using wyes now


----------

