# New to Pex



## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

Like I've stated before I never installed pex. I have my certification through Uponor but I wanna ask you pex guys what do you feel is the best pex to run?


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

I like Upanor.







Paul


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Not much better than Uponor/Wirzbo.


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

So using the expanding type is a lot better than using the crimp type?


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## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

expanding is wirsbo, i prefer crimp, quick and effective!


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

AKdaplumba said:


> expanding is wirsbo, i prefer crimp, quick and effective!


Is there a certain brand of pipe you use? What about the crimper?


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

The expansion rings in my opinion are way better. Here's my line of thought, instead of a piece on METAL binding into your pipe, you have material of the same type. BTW, I use a lot of Zurn with the SS crimp rings.

Another aspect of the Wirzbo that I like better are the fittings are a larger.


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## eddiecalder (Jul 15, 2008)

Titan Plumbing said:


> The expansion rings in my opinion are way better. Here's my line of thought, instead of a piece on METAL binding into your pipe, you have material of the same type. BTW, I use a lot of Zurn with the SS crimp rings.
> 
> Another aspect of the Wirzbo that I like better are the fittings are a larger.


Also makes it so you cant miss a crimp.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

I'm not a fan of pex or SS rings. The expansion system sets the fittings in tight, the crimp seems weak to me you can move the fittings some after crimping.


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

Crimp or expand are both good. My opinion the expand wirzbo/crosslink memory is the best materialy speaking. It take cold better and the fittings have larger bores and are thicker. A bit more pricey though and require more area in between fittings.
Pex is still perfectly fine and I use it most of the time as it is faster to install and bout 30% apprx cheaper.
I would repipe my own house from either one and sleep with ease.


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

I just looked at the price of expanders and they're pretty pricey. So on that note who makes the best crimping tool?


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

The Wirsbo/Upanor hand expander is about $300 I think. The Milwaukee M12 power expander is just under $400. Both of them will do 1/2", 3/4" and 1". From what I've read, the Mil3 crimpers are the ones to have and you need to buy one of each size at around $80 each. So, not that much more expensive than the better crimpers.




Paul


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

rocksteady said:


> The Wirsbo/Upanor hand expander is about $300 I think. The Milwaukee M12 power expander is just under $400. Both of them will do 1/2", 3/4" and 1". From what I've read, the Mil3 crimpers are the ones to have and you need to buy one of each size at around $80 each. So, not that much more expensive than the better crimpers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see. What about the pipe and fittings are they about the same price?


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

I've never really priced any crimp fittings other than the pb to wirsbo couplings. The plastic Upanor/Wirsbo fittings are pretty cheap. The brass ones can get pricey but I only use them to transition to copper or npt.





Paul


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

Ok what about water services. Is pex allowed Underground here in California? I usually use 1" soft copper.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

tungsten plumb said:


> Ok what about water services. Is pex allowed Underground here in California? I usually use 1" soft copper.


I can't speak for where you are (I know the Bay Area is a bit more strict on some things) but according to the CPC, it can be used as a "a cold water building supply and yard piping".








Paul


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

rocksteady said:


> I can't speak for where you are (I know the Bay Area is a bit more strict on some things) but according to the CPC, it can be used as a "a cold water building supply and yard piping".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea inspectors here are pricks. I'm gonna have to ask cause that would save me hundreds on water services and Ill still charge the same rate :thumbup:


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## Dun' Right (Sep 27, 2010)

tungsten plumb said:


> I just looked at the price of expanders and they're pretty pricey. So on that note who makes the best crimping tool?


I just sold a expander that was like new for 170. You can find them on ebay for 150-200 with 1/2-3/4-1" heads. 



tungsten plumb said:


> Ok what about water services. Is pex allowed Underground here in California? I usually use 1" soft copper.


Depends on where your working. Can make a big difference if you have a long water service to run. I've looped solid unopar to island sinks under slab before with no problems but for water services I use service grade pex. It's thicker, and you use compression fittings on it. Around here I have to have 5' of copper stubbed out of the building, and 5' stubbed out from the meter. Don't ask me why, the powers that be think it would be better to have fittings under ground, than a solid piece of pex all the way to the meter. 

If I have a water service that is 30', I won't put 20' of pex in, I'll just run copper. If I have 100' + I'll run pex. 

I am a believer in swell pex. Never had a problem with it, and I've installed hundreds of thousands of feet of it. 

I worked for a company shortly before going to work for myself, and we did a hotel with crimp style pex. It took us 3 full days to go back and fix the all the leaks/uncrimped rings between the 9 people I had on the job. It took 3 weeks for some of the uncrimped rings to blow apart... Imagine how bad that could screw you on a rushed job.....Nothing like cutting sheetrock or busting tile to crimp a ring your helper or somebody working for you forgot to crimp. 

I don't trust crimp. I'd use a sharkbite before I used a crimper. I don't even own a set of crimpers. If I'm installing piping, and tying into crimp style pex, I'll run swell pex to the crimp pex, and adapt with a sharkbite. 

I'm sure a lot of you disagree with me, but that's ok. I have my own experiences with both to base my opinion off of. You can preach all you want on it. I've seen the difference. :thumbup:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Dun' Right said:


> ...Nothing like cutting sheetrock or busting tile to crimp a ring your helper or somebody working for you forgot to crimp.
> 
> I don't trust crimp....


It seems that addressing the faulty help would be the better way to solve the faulty material. 

Ii also seems that you have grossly misplaced your mistrust.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

If I have to use pex, I like Viega.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

RealLivePlumber said:


> If I have to use pex, I like Viega.


Do you use the aluminum shielded type? If so, how does that work when it freezes?


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

I don't touch the crimp style products.

I use Wirsbo exclusively, and have been since 2002. I can't say enough good about it. I do wish the tool was still $700 to buy though as the odd H.O. has now acquired the expander since the price has dropped to the $300 range...

Whatever you choose, I would stay away from the PEX/AL/PEX type products as I've seen way too many problems surface with them - stick to a straight crosslinked poly pipe system.

Wirsbo FTW or Wirsboro as my customers call it.

My .02 CAD

Mark


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

Uponor has been used by me without issue since it became available in about 1995ish. Bite the bullet, buy the tool, install the best you can. I have never used the crimps, but I have seen failures.

It's pronounced ooponer, not "up on her" as the carpenters say.


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

tungsten plumb said:


> Like I've stated before I never installed pex. I have my certification through Uponor but I wanna ask you pex guys what do you feel is the best pex to run?


Uponor is the best out there. Expensive, but the best piping, best fittings, and best system. The only weakness to Uponor is when looping under slab and making manifolds, you have to custom make your own manifolds out of copper. If you don't the manifold will be spaced out so far apart that that you will take over multiple stud bays.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

crimp rings work great, and are very reliable.

I use them all the time. They dont just leak for the hell of it, the installer did something wrong if it leaks.


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

i have never used Pex except for supply tubes, someday i need to repipe my own house and was thinking about using pex in the attic.

i know i do not trust CPVC for the long term, and was going to just use copper.

so when fishing it down the wall cavities, would i need to open a few spots in the wall to secure it to prevent the pipes from banging around, and maybe use straight pieces for that ?

and how do ya stub out for angle stops in cabinets ?

i have never even really looked it up to see, so i know these are noob questions


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## Will (Jun 6, 2010)

Bayside500 said:


> i have never used Pex except for supply tubes, someday i need to repipe my own house and was thinking about using pex in the attic.
> 
> i know i do not trust CPVC for the long term, and was going to just use copper.
> 
> ...


I use Drop Earred 90's or copper stub outs with hold rite brackets for most of my fixtures stub outs. Finish product looks just like it was roughed in with Copper.


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## billy_awesome (Dec 19, 2011)

Here in Ontario Canada, wirsbro/uponor is the norm, and copper is an upgrade. I call it a spaghetti factory. The stuff is so fast to install, only problem is people feel the need not to support it, kind of brings shame to our trade. 

I run wirsbro underground all the time, it's tough as nails! and a lot cheaper than copper. I recently ran it underground at a airport hanger, works great, just like copper though, don't do any connections underground, to be safe.

Don't even waste your time with pex.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Will said:


> I use Drop Earred 90's or copper stub outs with hold rite brackets for most of my fixtures stub outs. Finish product looks just like it was roughed in with Copper.


 







I like to put a 2X4 in the wall then drill holes in the board and screw these to it. This makes a good looking very ridgid job. I got a top out coming up will post pics.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> It seems that addressing the faulty help would be the better way to solve the faulty material.
> 
> Ii also seems that you have grossly misplaced your mistrust.


 I don't know about anybody else, but I pump my water piping up to 120psi before I put water to it.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

easttexasplumb said:


> View attachment 13431
> I like to put a 2X4 in the wall then drill holes in the board and screw these to it. This makes a good looking very ridgid job. I got a top out coming up will post pics.


 Have you tried the Hold-Rite 701's?

I like to use them because I don't need to break out my torch.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

mpsllc said:


> Crimp or expand are both good. My opinion the expand wirzbo/crosslink memory is the best materialy speaking. It take cold better and the fittings have larger bores and are thicker. A bit more pricey though and require more area in between fittings.
> Pex is still perfectly fine and I use it most of the time as it is faster to install and bout 30% apprx cheaper.
> I would repipe my own house from either one and sleep with ease.


 The larger bore of the fittings and the visual aspect of being able to see that the connection has been made is what sold me on Uponor/Wirsbo.

I did hundreds of crimp connections when I was in Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana because that was all that was available to us at the time -- I never really felt all that comfortable walking away from those connections.


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## Dun' Right (Sep 27, 2010)

plbgbiz said:


> It seems that addressing the faulty help would be the better way to solve the faulty material.
> 
> Ii also seems that you have grossly misplaced your mistrust.


Hey, everybody makes mistakes, and nobody is perfect. I'm sure everybody here has missed a crimp ring in their life. A lot harder to miss a swell. 

I've placed my trust in the best material IMO. I said alot of you wouldn't agree, and that's cool. One of these days you'll be a believer


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

DesertOkie said:


> I'm not a fan of pex or SS rings. The expansion system sets the fittings in tight, the crimp seems weak to me you can move the fittings some after crimping.










Expansion system? What's that? All I have is a couple of crimp tools.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Dun' Right said:


> Around here I have to have 5' of copper stubbed out of the building, and 5' stubbed out from the meter. Don't ask me why, the powers that be think it would be better to have fittings under ground, than a solid piece of pex all the way to the meter.


 You still need to run copper out of the building if you piped it with pex?

That doesn't make a lick of sense; I can see stubbing out with copper for bonding purposes if the house is piped with copper, though.

As for the meter connection -- Some water purveyors don't want you touching their meters for liability reasons, so they provide a soft copper pig tail with a ground joint union or a Ford fitting. I'm assuming that's what you mean. If you're saying you have to provide the copper pigtail then that is just asinine.


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

billy_awesome said:


> Don't even waste your time with pex.



To clarify, Wirsbo IS PEX.

Crosslinked Polyethylene

There are variations among joining methods and perhaps even overall material quality but, PEX is PEX.

Mark


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 You've never tried the Uponor ProPEX system?


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

DesertOkie said:


> I'm not a fan of pex or SS rings.


 The SS rings just seem kind of brittle to me. If I had to do crimp style connections I would go with the copper rings.


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

Thanks for everyone's post. So if it normally takes 2 -3 days to do a repipe how much quicker would it be in pex? I don't have a crew it's just myself and my father-in-law.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Thing about crimp rings is if they aren't lined up right you can have a future leak. 

Zurn makes a crimp system that uses a 1 size fits all tool, and crimp rings that fit onto the pipe and have a stop built in to them so they align on the pipe correctly. 

The zurn system is good, but finding crimp rings is an issue. 

uponor makes the best connection system IMO, but the price of the expander and the fittings deture many that don't do much pex work. 

If you are gonna do alot of pex work- go uponor. 

Not a lot, or many repairs to existing pex systems- go with the crimp rings, preferably zurn.

Also you have to look into availability. 

And the uponor system can only be used with pex-A, so any repairs to non pex-A systems can't be done using the uponor system- no body mentioned this yet.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> Have you tried the Hold-Rite 701's?
> 
> I like to use them because I don't need to break out my torch.


Lumber is free laying all around most job sites. Those holdrites look like a good way to go though.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> You've never tried the Uponor ProPEX system?


 




No. The only way I have heard of it, is from you guys.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Bayside500 said:


> i have never used Pex except for supply tubes, someday i need to repipe my own house and was thinking about using pex in the attic.
> 
> i know i do not trust CPVC for the long term, and was going to just use copper.
> 
> ...


 
you can stub out with PEX, just crimp on the stop, done with no copper


Home >
Potable PEX Plumbing >
Stops and Valves >
1/4-Turn Chrome Stops > WPAS-2PB



*WPAS-2PB*

1/2 in. CF x 3/8 in. OD Comp. Angle 1/4-Turn Chrome Stop


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

We tried and used just about every pex on the market

The only one I truly trust is Rehau

Take a look at how this is put together


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## drain surgeon (Jun 17, 2010)

I have worked with both expanding type and crimp type pex and they are both good and both have their bad points. Expanding with a hand expander can be a PITA in a confined space. Crimps must be done with the tool in proper alignment to the fitting or its gonna leak. I use the crimp style mostly and have gotten into the habit of recrimping every fitting I have done on each run before moving on to the next run to lessen the chance of missing a crimp. It would be great if someone would come up with a crimp ring that changes color after crimping to give a visual clue . Compared to copper you will save a boat load of time. When doing new construction you can use a home run manifold. My pet peave is stubbing out with pex ,I personally think it looks like arse but thats just my opinion. If your going to stub out with pex at least use the white stuff and use an escussion.


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## drain surgeon (Jun 17, 2010)

Just watched your video Old School and I gotta say Im impressed I may rethink the expantion Vs crimp thing . Thanks for posting


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

I do like the Rehau system and I even considered it when we first went over to the Darkside -- What sold me on the Uponor ProPEX system was the elimination of the last Rehau step and the cost of the fittings.

Rehau doesn't do Engineered Plastic fittings -- That was a deal breaker for me.

The whole idea behind going over to the Darkside was the competitive edge I had over my Peers. 

Brass is expensive when I look at my Material bottom line.

What finally killed it for me was the additional 'cinching up' step.

I'm not dissing Rehau, btw, I think it's a great product.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I have a set of Rehau tools, someone trade me something for them.


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## billy_awesome (Dec 19, 2011)

Rehau is great! But a pain in the ass to crimp in joist spaces!

I've plumbed about 20 houses ever water line uponor and never had a problem getting the tool in a tight space, I suppose pex would be the easiest, but I still stand by my uponor!


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## SHAUN C (Feb 16, 2011)

Will said:


> Uponor is the best out there. Expensive, but the best piping, best fittings, and best system. The only weakness to Uponor is when looping under slab and making manifolds, you have to custom make your own manifolds out of copper. If you don't the manifold will be spaced out so far apart that that you will take over multiple stud bays.


Have you ever used the wirsbo manifold fittings? They make manifolds but they're kind of a pita, it's a tight fit to get your branch lines tied on.


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## bizzybeeplumbin (Jul 19, 2011)

I love Rehau, but I heard they stopped making the potable and stayed making radient only.

Nobody uses Uponor out here, sure it is a step more then the crimp, but it has the same ID as copper.

I use crimp becuase thats all that is sold here, but I would use uponor again if it was sold, I have all the tools, both power expander and manual. I love the plastic engineered fittings, especially for return lines. 

Rehau is just to expensive sadly.


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## TPWinc (May 30, 2011)

Widdershins said:


> The SS rings just seem kind of brittle to me. If I had to do crimp style connections I would go with the copper rings.


I've seen several houses flooded out due to SS cinch rings failing on the hot side usually right behind the water heater. Use the copper rings or the expander.


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

OldSchool said:


> We tried and used just about every pex on the market
> 
> The only one I truly trust is Rehau
> 
> Take a look at how this is put together


Now that looks like a secure joint.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

tungsten plumb said:


> Now that looks like a secure joint.


I use the viega pureflow system, the fittings are expensive. The savings is in labor and cost of the pipe. The fittings in that look rather pricey.


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## MSilver (Nov 15, 2011)

Widdershins said:


> You still need to run copper out of the building if you piped it with pex?
> 
> That doesn't make a lick of sense; I can see stubbing out with copper for bonding purposes if the house is piped with copper, though.
> 
> As for the meter connection -- Some water purveyors don't want you touching their meters for liability reasons, so they provide a soft copper pig tail with a ground joint union or a Ford fitting. I'm assuming that's what you mean. If you're saying you have to provide the copper pigtail then that is just asinine.


Yep! Must likely they want metal underground for electrical grounding, even if the electricity meter is not even close, because and acording to the city inspector, "if in the future (heard that a lot of times) an electrician needs grounding...bla bla bla"
If we run a main water lines in PVC (We do not use pex), must have at least 5' of copper from the building (Nothing about the meter).


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Around these parts they will bond the electrical to the rebar prior to pouring the slab, or they will bury coils of copper wire. They want 40' of ground.

No need to run ANY copper. We connect directly to the meter and the sparky does the rest.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Titan Plumbing said:


> Around these parts they will bond the electrical to the rebar prior to pouring the slab, or they will bury coils of copper wire. They want 40' of ground.
> 
> No need to run ANY copper. We connect directly to the meter and the sparky does the rest.


Ground rods and/ or the metal frame of the building are primarily used here.


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

easttexasplumb said:


> I use the viega pureflow system, the fittings are expensive. The savings is in labor and cost of the pipe. The fittings in that look rather pricey.


Viega pure flow requires a propress right?


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## MSilver (Nov 15, 2011)

Mississippiplum said:


> Ground rods and/ or the metal frame of the building are primarily used here.


One time we did a repipe on a single house, main water line was done by somebody else, all PVC into the main shut off valve, Inspector ask for grounding to sign my final, I had to install a rod... OMG, after 1 hour pounding on that thing I was ready to quit and install the copper underground. Finally one of my buddies finish it hehehe


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

MSilver said:


> One time we did a repipe on a single house, main water line was done by somebody else, all PVC into the main shut off valve, Inspector ask for grounding to sign my final, I had to install a rod... OMG, after 1 hour pounding on that thing I was ready to quit and install the copper underground. Finally one of my buddies finish it hehehe


Here we have to install a rod or ground to the building frame regardless.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

tungsten plumb said:


> Viega pure flow requires a propress right?


Viega uses a crimp tool, the main difference in the tool is it will no release until the crimp tool is fully engaged.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> Here we have to install a rod or ground to the building frame regardless.


 





When I did new construction, we never grounded or bonded anything, the 'lectricians did.


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

Tommy plumber said:


> When I did new construction, we never grounded or bonded anything, the 'lectricians did.


I don't ground or bond either. 
We don't do any electrical work, except for wh's and such, anything else the sparkies get called in.


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

easttexasplumb said:


> Viega uses a crimp tool, the main difference in the tool is it will not release until the crimp tool is fully engaged.


That's a cool feature helps eliminate bad crimps


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## track3 (Dec 31, 2011)

tungsten plumb said:


> That's a cool feature helps eliminate bad crimps


Sometimes, it is also a pain in the arse though if the ring or crimper shifts on you as you crimp since the only way to release it is to fully crimp it. Also the crimp fully encircles the ring so tight places suck versus the Zurn system. The Viega doesn't need to be calibrated though which is nice. Most Zurn crimpers are never calibrated once in use and will cause problems down the road. If properly calibrated and if you use zurn pex I would say that is your most economical choice to minimize labor and material expenses. 

Personally, I only use Uponor expansion rings for most connections and use the Viega rings for the stops, laundry boxes, silcox, etc. If the Uponor stops were more reasonably priced I would be using them as well. 


Whatever you do only use high-quality pex piping, stay far away from the dirt cheap diy stuff and only get a reliable crimper and make damn sure you follow all proper maintenance instructions. Manifolds are a must if using crimps, expansion rings are fine to run mains and branches.

I've seen a milwaukee expansion tool that probably was never greased and so it didn't rotate at all; the pipe had visible stress marks and leaked. 

A tool is only as good as the person using it.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Head over to the intro section and post an intro.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

MSilver said:


> One time we did a repipe on a single house, main water line was done by somebody else, all PVC into the main shut off valve, Inspector ask for grounding to sign my final, I had to install a rod... OMG, after 1 hour pounding on that thing I was ready to quit and install the copper underground. Finally one of my buddies finish it hehehe


 They make an SDS attachment for a roto hammer that will drive the rod in just a few minutes.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Anyone ever drive a ground rod with a 6oz Coke bottle?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Titan Plumbing said:


> Anyone ever drive a ground rod with a 6oz Coke bottle?


Never a coke bottle but may be a 26er of Rye


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Titan Plumbing said:


> Anyone ever drive a ground rod with a 6oz Coke bottle?


Is the coke bottle full of Bourbon?


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

We drive ground rods all the time with a 6oz Coke bottle. Nope, no booze.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Titan Plumbing said:


> We drive ground rods all the time with a 6oz Coke bottle. Nope, no booze.


I'm going to need a video or a detailed explanation.


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## trick1 (Sep 18, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> We tried and used just about every pex on the market
> 
> The only one I truly trust is Rehau
> 
> Take a look at how this is put together


That's impressive....

I never gave Rehau much thought since I use Uponor but it's worth looking into getting outfitted to install this type of tubing..


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

Mississippiplum said:


> Here we have to install a rod or ground to the building frame regardless.





Mississippiplum said:


> I don't ground or bond either.
> We don't do any electrical work, except for wh's and such, anything else the sparkies get called in.


 

Which one is it ?


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Which one is it ?


When I say we, I don't mean me or the plumb-Co I work for.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

AlbacoreShuffle said:


> Which one is it ?


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Mississippiplum said:


> When I say we, I don't mean me or the plumb-Co I work for.


 Oh. You meant the 'Royal We'.

Makes perfect sense now, I guess.:jester::laughing::jester:


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> When I say we, I don't mean me or the plumb-Co I work for.


 
:laughing: Ok so what does we mean in your eyes.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

trick1 said:


> That's impressive....
> 
> I never gave Rehau much thought since I use Uponor but it's worth looking into getting outfitted to install this type of tubing..


I started using Rehau pipe and fittings on commercial jobs.... it just seemed much more safer than Wirsbo...

Before Rehau we were using wirsbo... mind you wirsbo has some great pex but the fittings and the joining method is lacking...

we use to have problems with wirsbo as the pex took to long to contract to its original shape on expansion method... 

up here in the winter it takes for ever for it to shrink.....

Also had a defective roll of wirsbo pex in a new apartment building we were doing.... out of 10 rolls of pex everything that was done with that one roll leaked... no matter how many times we redid the joints...

So lesson learned... 

Use the best method of joining the first time... and walk away never having an issue...

Also... on an other note ... Rehau pex ... either aqua or hpex are both approved for potable water...were wirsbo is not


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## Mississippiplum (Sep 30, 2011)

easttexasplumb said:


> :laughing: Ok so what does we mean in your eyes.


Lol, I knew this would get me into trouble. 
We in the context I used, means, anyone in the state of fl that is doing electrical work. I hope this kinda makes sense


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Mississippiplum said:


> Lol, I knew this would get me into trouble.
> We in the context I used, means, anyone in the state of fl that is doing electrical work. I hope this kinda makes sense


Oui.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Mississippiplum said:


> Lol, I knew this would get me into trouble.
> We in the context I used, means, anyone in the state of fl that is doing electrical work. I hope this kinda makes sense


 
We here in Texas thank you for the clarification.


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## easttexasplumb (Oct 13, 2010)

Titan Plumbing said:


> We drive ground rods all the time with a 6oz Coke bottle. Nope, no booze.


 
So you sit back and watch your apprentice swing a hammer while sipping on a Coke. 

Or does we mean people in TX if so you must share your Coke. :blink:


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Actually this was demonstrated by an OLD electrician...you know how those guys are, always showing a young whippersnapper a thing or two.

In East Texas it will work better than here in the DFW area where we have rock starting at 2" below the dust covering.

He filled the Coke bottle with water and poured a small amount where he started the rod, then he starts working (with his hands) the rod up and down in the mud hole, adding water as needed. I watched him drive 2 rods this way, it was not as easy as he made it sound; but, he drove them down to where there was only 3 inches left outta the ground.


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

track3 said:


> Sometimes, it is also a pain in the arse though if the ring or crimper shifts on you as you crimp since the only way to release it is to fully crimp it. Also the crimp fully encircles the ring so tight places suck versus the Zurn system. The Viega doesn't need to be calibrated though which is nice. Most Zurn crimpers are never calibrated once in use and will cause problems down the road. If properly calibrated and if you use zurn pex I would say that is your most economical choice to minimize labor and material expenses.
> 
> Personally, I only use Uponor expansion rings for most connections and use the Viega rings for the stops, laundry boxes, silcox, etc. If the Uponor stops were more reasonably priced I would be using them as well.
> 
> ...


So with manifolds you pretty much run you hot and cold mains to the manifold and then branch off for the individual fixture lines?


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

The Milwaukee tool will only rotate if you use the Milwaukee dies. The Wirsbo ones will fit but don't have the little notches in them to allow the auto-rotate. 





Paul


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Titan Plumbing said:


> Do you use the aluminum shielded type? If so, how does that work when it freezes?


PEX-AL-PEX Freezing? :laughing:

Bout like a water filled Budweiser can with a .22 CCI Stinger Hollow-Point ripping through it.... :yes:


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## Epox (Sep 19, 2010)

tungsten plumb said:


> So with manifolds you pretty much run you hot and cold mains to the manifold and then branch off for the individual fixture lines?


Exactly.


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## tungsten plumb (Apr 15, 2010)

mpsllc said:


> Exactly.


Now it all makes sense :laughing:


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## MikeS (Oct 3, 2011)

There are 3 certifications for PEX piping. It has to do with the extrusion process to create the pipe, and its flexibility. 
They are graded as A,B and C pex, with A being the best as far as flexibility and durability. Every thing else doesn't even need to be considered.
As far as I know, only Weresbo (Uponor) is rated class A. It uses the expanded type connectors.
Correct me if I am wrong, but everything else is less than class A.
The OP is certified in Class A Uponor PEX. Nothing else. He should use that, since they never talked to him about crimping.
As for stubouts, I hate the prefab copper ones. Since I usually have to cut holes anyway, I prefer drop ear 90's with brass nipplies. Anchor the 90's to a 2x4.


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## track3 (Dec 31, 2011)

tungsten plumb said:


> So with manifolds you pretty much run you hot and cold mains to the manifold and then branch off for the individual fixture lines?


Every job is unique, but yeah for the most part you can get whatever size manifold you want with a endless variety of ports. Sometimes we still will throw in a few 1/2 tees closer to the fixtures if the runs are getting pretty long. 

We use a T-drill and make our own manifolds out of copper and uponor pex to copper transition fittings for anything over 1-1/2 stuff. Just made up 3 manifolds with 1" ports for a 2-1/2" water service for the cold feeds for some apartments.

We are a believer in the best water system is the one with the fewest connections.

Just remember that you can't use pex within 18 inches from a water heater.

Also, one of the selling points on uponor is the fittings ID are similar to copper so there isn't such a flow restriction versus normal pex fittings. Sometimes inspectors will let you catch 3 fixtures off of 1/2 inch while they will always only allow 2 on normal pex. So for a normal bathroom you can get by with 1 hot and cold 1/2 line and just tee off 3 times for the cold.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

MikeS said:


> There are 3 certifications for PEX piping. It has to do with the extrusion process to create the pipe, and its flexibility.
> They are graded as A,B and C pex, with A being the best as far as flexibility and durability. Every thing else doesn't even need to be considered.
> As far as I know, only Weresbo (Uponor) is rated class A. It uses the expanded type connectors.
> Correct me if I am wrong, but everything else is less than class A.
> ...


It's not class abc per say...
It's the method used to crosslink the polyethylene...

PEX-A is produced by the peroxide (Engel) method. This method performs "hot" cross-linking, above the crystal melting point. However, the process takes slightly longer than the other two methods as the polymer has to be kept at high temperature and pressure for long periods during the extrusion process. The cross-linked bonds are between carbon atoms.

PEX-B The silane method, also called the "moisture cure" method. In this method, cross-linking is performed in a secondary post-extrusion process, producing cross-links between a cross-linking agent. The process is accelerated with heat and moisture. The cross-linked bonds are formed through silanol condensation between two grafted vinyltrimethoxysilane (VTMS) units, connecting the polyethylene chains with C-C-Si-O-Si-C-C bridges. After installation, PEX-B have the same properties as PEX-A.

PEX-C is produced through electron beam processing, in a "cold" cross-linking process (below the crystal melting point). It provides less uniform, lower-degree cross-linking than the Engel method, especially at tube diameters over one inch (2.5 cm). When the process is not controlled properly, the outer layer of the tube may become brittle. However, it is the cleanest, most environmentally friendly method of the three, since it does not involve other chemicals and uses only high-energy electrons to split the carbon-hydrogen bonds and facilitate cross-linking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-linked_polyethylene


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

MikeS said:


> As far as I know, only Weresbo (Uponor) is rated class A. It uses the expanded type connectors.
> Correct me if I am wrong, but everything else is less than class A.


 Rehau is also classified as Type A.


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## damnplumber (Jan 22, 2012)

We have installed Wirsbo and Zurn on hundreds of homes since 2002 and have had only one failure that I can recall and it was opperator error (a poor joint that leaked ever soo slightly) I like the cordless Wiesbo expander tool but don't like the pumping tool. I don't mind the Zurn crimp tools either but I haven't tried the other brands so I cannot say one way ot the other. Very important to pressure test the system much like you would a gas system. I still have worries about rats eating through the pipe someday but haven't seen it yet.


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