# AO Smith water heater-need help



## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

M#-btr 197118
S#-1351m000150

I Install it 2 years ago and has been working fine. Until 4 weeks ago. All we get is an igniter click. 

Fast forward 5 weeks. 
15 hours of trouble shooting with tech support and every possible tool & 4 gas valves later still clicks & no fire. 

I even got pissed and hit the gas valve with a hammer and to my amazement it light. Now we watched cycle several times and even cycled the power switch and it light. But 24 hours later nothing. 

Now I have had an AO person come look at and he can't figure it out. He is going to lobby for a new tank for me but labor will be undecided. 

Any suggestions???

My next question is: 

-has anyone work AO smith on warranty issues -are they cheap like the rest of the manufacturing companies.


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## Letterrip (Jul 28, 2013)

Master Mark has a technique of hitting it with channel locks instead of a hammer. Check with him!!! 

Unfortunately, I have no actual valuable insight to offer.


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## stecar (Mar 18, 2012)

If you are a contractor for them, they pay a whole $50 an hour


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Is this just a standard fvir residential grade water heater or a commerical one I dont know the serial or model numbers for A0smith heaters??

if it is just a normal common heater I would just bite the bullet and warranty the damn thing out with a new heater..claim its a leaker and move on before is sucks a week of you time out of you....
2 years out they dont pay squat so its probably gonna just be on you...

if the channed locks dont work.. its time to kick it out the door:laughing::laughing:.


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

I'd be looking at the thermal pyle (I think that's what AO Smith calls it) and or a new burner assy. 

Is this a power vent or conventional? Any error codes?


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

he has got problems... 

that is a 100 gallon commercial unit


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Master Mark said:


> he has got problems...
> 
> that is a *100 gallon commercial unit*


And this is where I exit the thread!

Good luck!


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

stecar said:


> If you are a contractor for them, they pay a whole $50 an hour


Thanks. I won't work for that.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Where exactly in the sequence of operations is it stopping?

Clicking I'm guessing at the pilot valve opening and the igniter sparking...

Does the pilot flame ignite or not?

If the pilot does ignite, does the igniter keep sparking, and then the pilot goes out?

If the pilot does prove and stays on is the stop in the sequence where the main burner gas valve clicks to open?


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Where exactly in the sequence of operations is it stopping? Clicking I'm guessing at the pilot valve opening and the igniter sparking... Does the pilot flame ignite or not? If the pilot does ignite, does the igniter keep sparking, and then the pilot goes out? If the pilot does prove and stays on is the stop in the sequence where the main burner gas valve clicks to open?


Damper open
Gas thru valve- used new manometer 
Igniter has spark & continues to spark 
Burner does not light 
Everything has proper voltage according to tech support. 


My dad thinks the igniter & pilot assembly is no longer in correct position.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Or pilot tube is blocked...


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Or pilot tube is blocked...


Pulled it off gas valve and blow thru it. It was open. 

This tank is really baffling. 

Keep the suggestions coming.


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

It working afyer being hit with a hammer has me confused , but the spark is probably not even close to the gas. Or the gas isn't coming out the pilot orifice. Maybe it has a hole in the tube. 

I think your dad is on the right track. Call me for suggestions.one test would never say over the internet. Have you pulled the burner out? It's easy. But most guys install them improperly.. I'm curious about the flame sencor ignighter and pilot hood position


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

saysflushable said:


> It working afyer being hit with a hammer has me confused , but the spark is probably not even close to the gas. Or the gas isn't coming out the pilot orifice. Maybe it has a hole in the tube. I think your dad is on the right track. Call me for suggestions.one test would never say over the internet. Have you pulled the burner out? It's easy. But most guys install them improperly.. I'm curious about the flame sencor ignighter and pilot hood position


Pulled burner twice and it's a pita to install. I think I out it back proper but neither tech support or the field rep mentioned a poor install or ignition system


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

Even if it had a hole in the outlet tube to the burner you'd think I'd get some flame at the burner.


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

Can you see the pilot light light? It sound like no? I have never worked on this particular
Uni..t but most commercial water heaters are about the same. 

Often you can never see the pilot on commercials. So I assumeing the ignitor continues to click or spark. That being the case we need proof of the pilot being lit. If not then proof gas is getting to and out the pilot opening. Then proof the flame is in contact with the flame sensor. Then proof the flame sensor is completing the circuit to prove flame at pilot. 

Does the place have good make up air or is back draft so bad the gas is pulled away from the ignitor and sensor? Restaurants are bad for this. 

Again I never worked on that particular unit but the burner should come out easy. Mabe 4 sheet metalmscrews, disconnect gas pipe and wires to gas valve and it should slide out in one unit. If the gas tubes come out individually you may have done it wrong. Then it is a PIA to get back together. When installing it you have to lay down and make sure the sheet metal rails are sliding above the sheet metal mounted on the water heater.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Has the pilot assy/flame sensor been replaced?

The continuing to spark says either the pilot has not lit or that it has and the flame has not been detected...

This model uses flame rectification as a means of pilot flame detection. I have on some troublesome burners that used the same means and a few water heaters found the detection rod gets covered with crud and stops working. Simply cleaning the rod with scotchbrite will restore it to working condition. I've also determined that there is no difference in length of reliability between new and cleaned...

http://www.achrnews.com/articles/98085-troubleshooting-a-flame-rectification-system


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Has the pilot assy/flame sensor been replaced? The continuing to spark says either the pilot has not lit or that it has and the flame has not been detected... This model uses flame rectification as a means of pilot flame detection. I have on some troublesome burners that used the same means and a few water heaters found the detection rod gets covered with crud and stops working. Simply cleaning the rod with scotchbrite will restore it to working condition. I've also determined that there is no difference in length of reliability between new and cleaned... http://www.achrnews.com/articles/98085-troubleshooting-a-flame-rectification-system


I have cleansed the pilot assembly on my first trip. 

Why do you feel a new one is no different than an old one?


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## plumber11928 (Feb 18, 2015)

Hey guys, I read all the post's and all are on the money troubleshooting steps.
I had a problem with the same heater a year ago. I found the problem was the ignition control. I say that because the ignition is timed and should not continue to spark after the timed period. The unit should lock out or retry ignition. the spark should not be on all the time. I found it's rare that the flame rod goes bad. Yes it does get dirty but i would check the control..... Hope my two cents helps


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plungerboy said:


> I have cleansed the pilot assembly on my first trip.
> 
> Why do you feel a new one is no different than an old one?


The link I posted shares the same opinion...

I had a factory maintenance gig and one of my nightmares was a very large gas burner firing into a tube on a large parts washer. It was designed by an idiot who had no idea of what he was doing and it was up to me to keep this temperamental POS running...

With this flame pushing back it was one of the dirtiest burners I have ever had the displeasure of working on and the flame sensors were dirtied up quite often. I did my own study of the longevity of the sensor staying in service and there was no difference between new & cleaned. Save your time and money clean them!


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

Called AO smith an asked for complete burner assembly. Waiting for response.


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## FL pipe dope (Dec 3, 2014)

Good gas pressure? And is it CONSISTENT?


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

FL pipe dope said:


> Good gas pressure? And is it CONSISTENT?


According to AO its on the money. 

But can you really check for continuos pressure if the burner doesn't lite ?


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## OpenSights (Mar 23, 2015)

Ya know what.... I just thought of something. Years ago I took care of a few pizza places, and the employees would knock the burner assembly with a mop.... seemed like I was out there every few weeks, but it would be intermittent at times like this one. What I finally figured out was they kept knocking an electrical connection and loosing continuity. They were 100gal Whites. 

I'm sure that's been checked though... just tossing it out there.


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

The flame sensor is just a stainless steel rod so new or old and cleaned should make no difference

Just don't sand it off with an old hunk of flux covered sandpaper.


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## saysflushable (Jun 15, 2009)

OpenSights said:


> Ya know what.... I just thought of something. Years ago I took care of a few pizza places, and the employees would knock the burner assembly with a mop.... seemed like I was out there every few weeks, but it would be intermittent at times like this one. What I finally figured out was they kept knocking an electrical connection and loosing continuity. They were 100gal Whites.
> 
> I'm sure that's been checked though... just tossing it out there.


 All connections have to be check for continuity. Its just part of the process. Although I'm known to skip process es and it usually comes back to haunt me.


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

saysflushable said:


> The flame sensor is just a stainless steel rod so new or old and cleaned should make no difference Just don't sand it off with an old hunk of flux covered sandpaper.


Thanks. Used new cloth and wire brush


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## FL pipe dope (Dec 3, 2014)

You need an OLD priest, and a YOUNG priest....


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## money turds (Oct 10, 2013)

check for spark. check to see if the pilot lights. if it is lit and keeps sparking, you have a bad flame rod or bad ignition control box or bad ground!
1. Make sure you have a properly grounded electrical outlet.
2. Check you cord and make sure it has the ground prong still intact.
3. install complete new pilot assembly
4.Add a ground wire from the pilot assembly to the ignition control box. Sometimes there is not a good enough ground between the burner rack and heater. By adding this wire you are making sure you have a good ground because the flame rod completes the signal to the ignition control box which in turn opens your main gas valve.
5. if none of the above solutions help, change out the ignition control box. I have bad ones over the years.


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

money turds said:


> check for spark. check to see if the pilot lights. if it is lit and keeps sparking, you have a bad flame rod or bad ignition control box or bad ground! 1. Make sure you have a properly grounded electrical outlet. 2. Check you cord and make sure it has the ground prong still intact. 3. install complete new pilot assembly 4.Add a ground wire from the pilot assembly to the ignition control box. Sometimes there is not a good enough ground between the burner rack and heater. By adding this wire you are making sure you have a good ground because the flame rod completes the signal to the ignition control box which in turn opens your main gas valve. 5. if none of the above solutions help, change out the ignition control box. I have bad ones over the years.


Going back one more time. AO smith is putting me In touch with a "specialist". We'll see how this debacle goes. 

Apparently in my hours on the phone with tech support none of the techs wrote done gas pressures in there notes so I get to go back again for free because somebody (tech support) didn't do there job. I'm pi$$ed. 

Will keep you posted.


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

Went back today and for the fun of it I turned it on and got nothing. Not surprised. So based on what money turd suggested (bad ground) I wiggled the burner assembly frame and whoosh it lit. Cycled several times and it worked. Next I installed a ground from the top of the burner assembly ( already a screw hole) to the green grounding wire screw port in the control box. Cycled power, click,click whoosh. Now we will wait until Monday and see how it goes.


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

Still broke. Going Tuesday again


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plungerboy said:


> Still broke. Going Tuesday again


Try This...


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Try This...



Haha. Thats what I told the AO smith rep.


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

Well the good news is: the maintence guy left the heater on and it has been working fine for almost two weeks.


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