# Tankless W/H



## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

What's the ROI on a tankless? I have a hard time convincing myself that it's not a rip-off. It sure is a lot of scratch for "endless" hot water.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Over 20 views and not ONE opinion.....................


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## user4 (Jun 12, 2008)

Choctaw said:


> What's the ROI on a tankless? I have a hard time convincing myself that it's not a rip-off. It sure is a lot of scratch for "endless" hot water.


Depends on the situation, I installed a group of them in a restaurant that did not have room for two 100 gal heaters, so for them is was the difference between staying open or closing the doors.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

OK, I will narrow this down a bit. This is mainly intended for residential applications.

The big push by the manufactuers and ulitmately by us as contractors is "energy savings", with space savings and endless hot water taking the back seat. So, with said how in the world will the HO ever see a return on their investment. Especially in a retrofit situation.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

My opinion is that you can only sell what you believe in, unless you are a sociopath. If you don't believe in the technology then you shouldn't try to sell it. If you do your homework and come to the conclusion that this is a great choice for a lot of people then all that is left is to communicate that to the ho (which is not always easy).

The thing is that great value hardly ever comes down strictly to dollars and cents.

Things to point out:

Endless hot water

Significant energy savings (varies depending on what they have now) which translates to $. I had a client call me recently who just wanted to say thanks for the tankless install and to let me know that his gas bill (dead of summer) had gone from $60 to $16. I don't think I would say that that would be typical, I don't know, but that comes to $528 per year.

Longevity at least 2X that of the typical tank because of replaceable component parts (this does not apply to all brands).

Removal of old water heater from interior spaces (when this applies) which significantly reduces risk of flooding from a failed tank.

Space savings (critical for some)

Tax credit

Utility rebates (where they apply)

And last but not least I am not above appealing to their vanity if I think that the idea of them being the first on their block to sport this technology would influence their decision making process.

Imo, the bottom line is that these are fantastic water heaters that will pay for themselves over time especially with the current tax credits and utility rebates.

They are expensive on the front end though and so it's not for everyone. Our average install is around $3700 - $3900. If you think this is a rip off then by all means, you should not be selling or installing tankless.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

I think the industry is not letting the consumer know everything............21 yrs. for a ROI is not too good in my opinion.

Not to mention the mandated yearly maintainance to insure the warranty stays in effect.

This is all for discussion purposes only, seems like y'all like this type of thing.

I do see where they have their benifits and have sold/installed them many times. It's just the premise is flawed, IMHO.


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## jrplumbing74 (Apr 19, 2009)

One benefit is: until 2011 the tax credit is up from $500 to $1500.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*just 3900, thats a steal....*

they beat this subject to death on numerous sites...

soon, a tankless salesman will show up here and tout how great they are..

I wouild have to actually try one before I can
inflict them on my un-knowing innocent customers.

here is my long-winded take on it all
http://weilhammerplumbing.com/houseofhorrors/


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*so what happens in 2011??*



jrplumbing74 said:


> One benefit is: until 2011 the tax credit is up from $500 to $1500.


that kind of reminds me of when the tax credits ran out on Solar panels back in 1986.....

the absolute bottom fell out of the industry...


I wonder if it will happen again??.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It's funny. Solar heaters are all over the place here. I don't think you can go into a single neighborhood without seeing at least one. I'm the only guy in town advertising to do the service on them and I've noticed that they are all either from the 70s or only a few years old. Funny how those serial number dates coincide perfectly with the tax credit dates :laughing:.

Even so, I see hundreds of solar heaters that are still cranking since the 70s. I’d say those HOs got there moneys worth eh? 20-40 years of free hot water!!! That's a hella good pay back.



Master Mark said:


> that kind of reminds me of when the tax credits ran out on Solar panels back in 1986.....
> 
> the absolute bottom fell out of the industry...
> 
> ...


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Anyone reading this should go visit mastermark’s link. He pretty much hits on every point.



Master Mark said:


> they beat this subject to death on numerous sites...
> 
> soon, a tankless salesman will show up here and tout how great they are..
> 
> ...


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## jrplumbing74 (Apr 19, 2009)

I have found that for a lot of the tankless installs we've made the customer has come to us with the project. That being said a large majority of these customers have large bank accounts and the main reason for the job is:
1 - We are installing shower systems that would basically require an endless supply of hot water (think 3 shower heads, 8 body sprays, total gpm of systems upwards of 20)
2 - New large custom home construction with high fixture count where they want all tax credit options to qualify for Leed (Green) programs.
3 - Large families needing excessive amounts of hot water.

I don't have to "Sell" tankless.....to the client where comfort of living outweighs cost, it sells itself.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Tankless sale price: $3800.00

Tax Credit = 30%  $(1040.00)

Local utility rebate - gas tank to gas tankless $ ( 350.00)
- electric tank to gas tankless $ ( 900.00)

Total $ 2410.00/$1860.00

Now don't forget the cost of the new tank w/code upgrades that you were going to purchase anyway because your old tank failed.

40 gal. standard grade tank w/txt $1387.00
50 gal. standard grade tank w/txt $1510.00

Subtract the cost of the tank that you were going to install anyway and you are left with $1027.00/900.00


Now, using the manufacturers numbers which are low because they compare efficiencies of new tanks to new tankless, you get about $110 per year in savings when comparing gas tank to gas tankless. So the payback is less than 10 years from a machine who's lifespan will be twice that. The DOE says that the average lifespan of a tank is 10-15 years so in 10 years (worst case, I think in reality it's closer to 5) your tankless will have paid for itself but your tank will very likely need to be replaced again. Tank manufacturers are not making these things to last, they can't. The days of 30 year old tank type water heaters is gone.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

You forgot the annual maintainace costs.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

They are the same as if I were performing maintenance on a tank and the manufacturer does not require them to maintain the warranty. I only quoted my standard tank installs. If it were a deluxe or premier install you would add a lot more to the install price (they would get a better tank w/better warranty) and they would receive annual maintenance for the term of the warranty.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

While some tanks go in just 5 years I find most last 20 in my area or more. I have yet to see a 20 year old tankless unit that needed no repairs. When You can show me a few real world case studies where the unit was installed and worked flawlessly for 20 years with no repairs or maintenance then I will agree that they are cost effective. Until that happens I will be raising the BS flag and sounding the bugle.

Respectfully yours, 
Pro-Tech Plumbing LLC



smellslike$tome said:


> Tankless sale price: $3800.00
> 
> Tax Credit = 30% $(1040.00)
> 
> ...


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Hey I'm really not trying to talk anybody into anything. I love it when I approach the ho about the possibility of tankless and they say "Oh I heard that that was not worth it" or "so and so plumber said it was a waste of money". I sit down with them and in about 10 minutes I have destroyed every myth perpetrated by plumbers who just aren't interested in any new way of doing things. The fewer of my competitors there are who do the work necessary to educate themselves about this the better. It only means my market share is bigger.


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## Turd Burglar (Sep 26, 2009)

I don't like them much (maybe in all-year hot climate I would reconsider) and I don't sell them. In just a few years, I think they will become a burden to homeowners, not just the initial upfront cost, but the repairs are going to be costly. I don't install tankless, but I will probably become highly trained at repairing the junk, when they start failing and only a handful of guys know how to repair them. BIG BUCKS for the repairs.
When the homeowner complains, i'll just say, "Hey, I didn't install this thing, I just repair the crap!":laughing:

BTW, I ripped out an old tankless and installed a tank unit for a customer this year. He was tired of the poor performance.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

They *aren't* worth it. 

If you are selling them as a luxury item fine. But not if you are telling people that it's saving them money.


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## Turd Burglar (Sep 26, 2009)

I can't blame ya for making a buck off the tankless installs smells, admit it, you are selling them for your bank account, not for the customer's best interest. I plan on making a buck off all the repairs galore in a few years.:whistling2:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I to am getting lots of calls to rip out tankless units. After a few years the sales gimmicks lose there polish and the reality sets in. Luckily this has become a good source of revenue for me because, as you say, many plumbers won't service them so I end up getting the calls.




Turd Burglar said:


> I don't like them much (maybe in all-year hot climate I would reconsider) and I don't sell them. In just a few years, I think they will become a burden to homeowners, not just the initial upfront cost, but the repairs are going to be costly. I don't install tankless, but I will probably become highly trained at repairing the junk, when they start failing and only a handful of guys know how to repair them. BIG BUCKS for the repairs.
> When the homeowner complains, i'll just say, "Hey, I didn't install this thing, I just repair the crap!":laughing:
> 
> BTW, I ripped out an old tankless and installed a tank unit for a customer this year. He was tired of the poor performance.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Turd Burglar said:


> I can't blame ya for making a buck off the tankless installs smells, admit it, you are selling them for your bank account, not for the customer's best interest. I plan on making a buck off all the repairs galore in a few years.:whistling2:


On the contrary, I sell them because I think it is in both of our interests to do so.

Not all tankless water heaters are created equally. We too receive service requests almost every month for tankless water heaters. Never for the brand we sell and nearly always the problems are the result of the installer not knowing what he was doing. We will also make money on repairs/replacement of inferior manufacturers. As for the brand we sell, we are authorized service providers and have received exactly 2 service requests in the past year. One was for a unit that was being used in an improper application (should have been a DV model and was not) and the other was in an area of extremely hard water with no pre treatment of that water. Both were commercial units which will always receive much harsher treatment (much higher operating temps) and both were improperly installed. This was hardly the fault of the water heaters.


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

I'm really not trying to start a fight with any of you guys. I've said before and I really meant it that if you don't believe in them you shouldn't sell them. I'm ok with that. I kinda feel like you are overstepping, almost insinuating that I know that these water heaters are crap and am simply selling them anyway because I can just to make a buck. I promise you that that is not the case, I do believe in this technology, I do believe it's a great product (not every manufacturer) and I do believe it is worth having. I am all electric with virtually no chance of getting ng service, but I assure you, even though I just replaced my electric water heater about 6 months ago, that if I could get ng service to my house, my brand new electric water heater would be coming out tomorrow and a brand new N-0751 would be going in it's place.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

You could go with propane or solar.


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## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

*you will be ripping out more of them*



Protech said:


> I to am getting lots of calls to rip out tankless units. After a few years the sales gimmicks lose there polish and the reality sets in. Luckily this has become a good source of revenue for me because, as you say, many plumbers won't service them so I end up getting the calls.


Good for you, how many do you get calls from??

That will b ea good source of revenue, and it will get worse over time

you cant even get the average homeowner 
to even drain their tank type heater once a year..

they wont have that tankless heater 
de-limed bi- annually for $150 buckis 
to keep the performance curve from crashing.......

all they want is endless hot water shooting up 
their asses while they are up against the fancy nozzled shower..:laughing:

its just a matter of time , once the tax credits are gone
in about 10 years they will be tearing them out
due to poor or no maintiance.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

That's pure gold right there. Watch out dunbar there's a new guy in town :laughing:



Master Mark said:


> Good for you, how many do you get calls from??
> 
> That will b ea good source of revenue, and it will get worse over time
> 
> ...


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

I really do not care for them. I did take training for Noritz and Rinnai. I have installed a few where the customer demanded them.

I feel that they are way too overcomplicated for such a simple task. (heating water). Inducer motors, flow switches, wiring harnesses that look like they belong in a 737. I feel that a 50 high recovery is sufficient in most applications of high demand. Put a Bradford in, and you don't even have to look at it for 15 years. 

I do have a job that I just quoted. A beach house that is used seasonally. House had a fire, and is a small lot. Damn architect left about zero room for utilities. He tried to maximize all of the space for living, with no consideration for anything else. There is literally no place for a tank type water heater. Tankless is really the only option here.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Hey lets all play a game. Lets all post some pictures of energy efficient heaters that lasted 20+ years with no maintenance and provided a significant savings to the HO.

Here I'll go first. OK tankless guys, let's see those pictures.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Oh Lord. Some of you guys are just clueless in this department..... Whoever said tankless heaters were an "investment"? Can the OP even define the word investment? Than answer me why a home appliance would be an investment.

"I'll juss fix em and make me lots oh grip".....please, you know nothing about anything.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Ken, talk to HVAC guys and ask about the maint. required for their high E stuff. There is simple maint. that is needed. Depending on the water supplied and if it was installed correctly these things (not all brands) will easily last that long, but we'll have to wait about 14 more years, but I have the pictures. The problem, is guys like Bubba over there who install these things and truley have no clue what they are doing or what is required for a long term quality installation. I'm not trying to sell you on anything, but lets be clear that it's apples for apples.....we are not talking electric tankless units here...gas only. 

Think of it like this: I am not well versed on solar DHW systems. Can I install them? Sure I can. Can you do a better more professional job with respect to longevity? Sure you can. Flip that around for tankless heaters and maybe you see my point. Maybe not.


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## Titan Plumbing (Oct 8, 2009)

Tankless said:


> Oh Lord. Some of you guys are just clueless in this department..... *Whoever said tankless heaters were an "investment"?* *Can the OP even define the word investment?*  Than answer me why a home appliance would be an investment.
> 
> "I'll juss fix em and make me lots oh grip".....please, you know nothing about anything.


Well, when the manufactuers make their claims of energy savings, then yes, some clients will see them as investments, as in saving money. Not like gold/silver, but you are intelligent enough to understand that, right?

Don't need to get into a pissing match about intelligence on here, we are talking about the legitamacy of a tankless water heater and it's merits in real world conditions.


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## Turd Burglar (Sep 26, 2009)

To the tankless guys. I am sorry, I acted a bit overjudgemental in the tankless debate.
Do I think that tankless are the best solution for my current clients and climate, economy, etc. all factored in? No, not at all.
Do I think that their are very good quality tankless heaters out there that perform excellently? Yes, Yes I do. I have recommended tankless systems to a small handful of people that would benefit from the system.
But I have also talked a vast number of people out of the decision, because many people mistakenly think that they will just save a bunch of money this way, and then when they hear the pricetag, and do the math about the gas savings, they aren't so excited any more.

If I wanted an awesome, super-efficient water heater, I would rather put in a Steibel-Eltron Accelera Heat-pump Water Heater! _(again, the higher efficiencies are more so in warmer climates, just like solar, tankless, etc.)_ Now THAT is efficient, baby! Blows tankless out of the water!:thumbup:


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## mselkee (Aug 13, 2009)

We have installed tankless for ~6 years now. One brand. A lot of commercial/institutional installs too. One High School install we did 5 years ago just went through a leeds remodel. The only thing remaining in the mechroom was the heaters we installed. 

Yes we have had some problems. Our brand didn't do it's homework as well as it should have for hi altitude installations (8000-10,000 ASL). We personally had one bad install because of this. I know of others though. The intake air can clog the burner tray with bugs and other junk. The vents can ice over during a cold snap. If you educate your customers beforehand, these issues can be turned into money makers. I'm seeing an increase in service calls for units over 4 years old. They need cleaning usually. Nothing more. My rep told me the components are designed for 1 million cycles minimum.

Our experience has been favorable so far. I talked to a new customer yesterday who wants his unit checked (4 years old) and he claims to have saved $400/year on gas. It's already paid for itself. 

I don't sell stuff that costs me money or customers. I have SATISFIED tankless customers. In fact, I've done a few for super picky clients that ***** about everything only to have them rave about the product. Plus I'm installing at Hi altitude with super Cold water (35*) with good results. If I can't do it no one can.

The rest of the world has been using this technology for over 20 years now because they pay more in energy costs. I think tankless is here to stay. It works and it works well. Just watch the next building cycle. Houses will be designed to accommodate tankless in their design. Just watch sales then.


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

It's interesting that you've had success with tankless with such cold water. I live in a highly populated area, I'm in a lot of homes, I've only seen two tankless installs. The reason i'm hearing they haven't become popular here other than cost, is that they don't perform well in cold water parts of the country.


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## mselkee (Aug 13, 2009)

I live in a county that is very green, very energy aware, and expensive to live in. It is the coldest county in the USA south of Alaska (usually). People here think about saving for winter heating bills in May. Trust me, tankless works. My market demographics show that the much more affluent (picky) customers desire this product. My smart customers do the numbers and call for tankless. 

Perhaps me taking the time to explain the downside and the realities of an install helps. I'm not sure. It's a money maker for us, so whats not to like? 

A person who is looking at a $3000+ fuel bill a year looks a little harder at reducing it. The funny thing is that we don't install the larger units because they can't produce the temperature rise for higher GPMs than the smaller units under our conditions.

Its all about satisfied customers. It works for them, it works for us.


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## amh112181 (Sep 3, 2009)

I live in Maine and have installed a couple dozen tankless water heaters. The problems I have had to work on are bad installs by someone else! As long as they get enough gas (pipe sizing) and good treated water let it eat. Some towns up here have horrible water those people I try to talk out of them if I can't then I tell them when I am there to flush it out told ya so.


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## WestCoastPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

You guys need to remember, tankless has been in europe and japan, asia for decades. My wife had never seena tank type water heater until she moved here with me.

I just did a dual tankless install with a recirc loop on Friday. He had it done because he had 2 50 gallon water heaters, one on each side of the house.

My customers have never asked if a tankless is a good "investment" they call me because their contractor installed an 80 gallon soak tub in their new bathroom and installed a new 50 gallon water heater, other reasons are because they think tankless is cool, green, want endless hot water, need to park a new motorcycle where their water heater is in the garage etc, etc, etc.

you get the point. I have had 1 customer in all my 10 years of installaing tankless tell me that his gas bill went down big time. Besides, another good point, when the heat exchanger leaks, you replace just the exchanger, not the whole water heater.


I'm am an ASP for Rinnai, and soon to be for Noritz, 90% of the tankless calls I get are because they are installed wrong, or it isn't a tankless problem at all, good for business.


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

I was called into a place that has been having nothing but issues with all 6 of their Tankless water heaters for the last year. The units are 2 ½ years old. Most of the problems with the units where due to lack of maintenance (cleaning the inlet filter and deliming), which lead to other problems since they tried to service the units themselves, and in all the units the irreverently changed the manifold pressures, which they changed it so drastically in one it would no longer lite up. Another unit the took apart the flow sensors, and put the one flow sensor inside the servo valve backwards which made the unit not call in the next unit when it reached max capacity. Another unit the reversed the main flow sensor which caused a no lite issue. And the final unit that would not lite they broke the electrical connector that goes to the main gas solenoid valve.

And all these units needed was the filters to be cleaned, and a good deliming. It was just the managers did not think that was the problem.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> I was called into a place that has been having nothing but issues with all 6 of their Tankless water heaters for the last year. The units are 2 ½ years old. Most of the problems with the units where due to lack of maintenance (cleaning the inlet filter and deliming), which lead to other problems since they tried to service the units themselves, and in all the units the irreverently changed the manifold pressures, which they changed it so drastically in one it would no longer lite up. Another unit the took apart the flow sensors, and put the one flow sensor inside the servo valve backwards which made the unit not call in the next unit when it reached max capacity. Another unit the reversed the main flow sensor which caused a no lite issue. And the final unit that would not lite they broke the electrical connector that goes to the main gas solenoid valve.
> 
> And all these units needed was the filters to be cleaned, and a good deliming. It was just the managers did not think that was the problem.


 
I would have voided all their warranties.....and yelled at someone. Don't ya just love going through some other dumbasses work looking for problems.....I am so tired of doing it......

I was at a house yesterday and the install looked somewhat OK. Water in the exchanger / combustion chamber / fan / gas jet ports and a little puddle in the bottom of the can. I pulled the vent and realized this tard used all CAT III (2 90's and a 36") but as he stubbed up into the finished ceiling, about 3" out of view he cut the cat III in half with tin snips, than used the old single B-vent for about 2 feet than jammed the remaining CAT III that penetrated the roof jack. He didn't flash it right so there was some water that made its way in, but he used the old cheep rain cap that had blown off, and after all the rain we just got, he basically flooded the unit. No warranty and not worth fixing. Mind you it was a 4 bath - 5 rooms custom home running off a 6.9. The gas was done correctly, that's cuz the meter was just outside the garage wall. They chose the 4800 option for a new 842MDV (hence my condensate pump question). I spent 2 hrs getting that thing back to life......cuz I just can't get to it for a few weeks....I was able to get it to fire at max of 3.3 gpm with a 50 degree rise.......PITA:no:


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## 130 PLUMBER (Oct 22, 2009)

I personally wont install tankless water heater but i have found an excellent substitude unit,one that has a 96% thermal efficiency and is a 50 gallon unit.A. O. Smith supplies the Vertex™ 100 Power Direct-Vent Gas Water Heaters.http://www.hotwater.com/products/residential/rg-vertex100.html


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