# Norits Concentric installation



## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

"*NoritZ Concentric installation* " (boy, I am tired....)


Its been a while since I posted a job and i'm bored at the moment....

Just finished this one, billed it for 1.5 days and it took exactly 1.5 days :furious:

These peoples garage was pretty dirty. Lots of empty boxes....like a toaster oven from 20 years ago...weird shyit like that. So I noted all the cob webs and dust/dirt and knew of I threw a standard one in there it was gonna have problems. 

The combustable air make up must be clean.

They wanted no part of an exterior installation and the wall that I would have done the install on was getting ripped down for an addition at some point...or so they say.

So I elected to sell them the new 0751m DVC..Direct Vent Concentric

They have been out for...i dunno like 3 or 6 months I think. I never paid much attention to them. This job was a perfect canidate for it.

I wound up re-doing the piping to the softener and reconfiguring the house so both hot and cold was on soft water. Removed the old copper and old gas branch line....cuz I'm nice like that. 

Key points:
zero clerance tolerances on the venting
built in CONDENSATE drip line (finally)
adjustable mounting brackets to line up to vent pieces perfectly
Air adjustment for very long / turns vent runs
A few other things I am forgetting

Overall, I was rather impressed with the unit and how quiet it is. Responce times are a little slow, but it has to be that way for the Energy Star rating.

Vent pieces cost exactly the same, if not a little less. The rain cap can get pricy but it depends on either the cold or warm weather versions. The heater cost itself was...maybe 50 bucks more...I think...I'll see the bill next month.

As for this particular installation, this is by no means anything special. The days of $5000 installations are over. My market isn't having it so i have to do the best I can with respect to the price, and that price needs to be compeditive..to a degree. I did spend too much time on the meter make up. I just didn't have all the correct size nipples with me so I had to grind it out and make it work. Normally I just run CSST to the exterior, but I forgot to add in the bonding cost, and the panel was on the other side of the house. my inspectors are not wanting to see it bonded if it is not exposed to the outside. But I have a feeling the rules are gonna get tweeked again.... So there ya go, this is what I do at least once a week, this week I have another one to do and two more next week.


Existing






























Progress:









more progress:









built in condensate tee:









Condensate trap:









New exterior venting and roof jack:











New meter make up....had to rebuild the whole damn thing....:furious:










I don't know why I am posting this one..nothin special:










Built in remote:










Finished:









Garage full of crap, and my new heater:


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## TotalPlumber (Sep 30, 2008)

Nice work.

Total


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## ROSELLE PLUMBER (Jun 26, 2009)

please give a follow up on gas bill, and customer feed back after 30 days:thumbsup:


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Thanks for sharing your pictures, oh and Tankless, the csst looks good this time around. :thumbsup:


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

Nice job, Tankless.
It's always interesting to see the differences of how things are done from one locale to the next. No drip leg? We have to have 'em on practically everything except dryers and ranges. Couple other exceptions too, but you get the idea. We can't use plastic clips and hangers on the gas line either. Well, they don't specifically say "don't use plastic", they just address it by saying that they have to withstand 1200 deg F.

Nice work. Quite an upgrade.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

ROSELLE PLUMBER said:


> please give a follow up on gas bill, and customer feed back after 30 days:thumbsup:


 
Actually this one will be an interesting one to follow up on because they have no other gas appliances in the home other than a FAU, but that is shut off for most of the year and they said it will get used around January and Feburary. There gas bill is normally 30 bucks a month, so I am actually courious. I think......maybe 5 to 10 bucks less, but who knows.

I didn't sell them this unit with the hopes and dreams of a cheaper gas bill. I educate my clients and give them all the facts it's up to them to decide if they want one. And that's just it....a WANT, not a need. First thing I tell ppl is going tankless is not the cheapest way to solve the hot water issue.

Client called me and said the inspector was very impressed and spent a little while "just standing there and staring". She told me she enjoyed her bath that didn't turn luke warm after 5 minutes of filling.

Another satisfied customer......and BTW, the husband is a PHD - he is a Sciencetist for Amgen......very technicle very data driven, a little bit odd but nice enough. Stood there with his arms crossed and a copy of the famous Consumer Reports on Tankless heaters. It was a fairly easy sale and I acomplished every single thing I told them during the sale.

If I remember to get the nuimbers on the gas bill in a few months I'll post them.

Thanks!


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Miguel said:


> Nice job, Tankless.
> It's always interesting to see the differences of how things are done from one locale to the next. No drip leg? We have to have 'em on practically everything except dryers and ranges. Couple other exceptions too, but you get the idea. We can't use plastic clips and hangers on the gas line either. Well, they don't specifically say "don't use plastic", they just address it by saying that they have to withstand 1200 deg F.
> 
> Nice work. Quite an upgrade.


 
That's sorta why I post up jobs from time to time, so others can see how its done elsewhere....same idea with the DWV post I made that didn't really take off.

If you stick around you will hear things like drip legs are not required because in CA we have....as they say "dry gas"....versus wet gas so we don't need them. And for that type of gas pipe I ran, manu states non metallic strapping or where there is no metal in contact (insulated hangars.....etc..).

I too like seeing other things from different places, but not too many guys post up their tankless jobs......hint...hint!!

Cheers!


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## cowserj (Aug 14, 2009)

shouldnt you have a union or disconnect on that gas line other than the tracpipe fitting?


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

that ball valve on the GAS line? Here is what I use.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Try a BOCA plate or somthing behind your sweat joints near the wall. You burnt the heck out of the wall in 2 places:thumbdown:


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

is that nibco cock full port.?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I wanna see that gas bill. How many hot water users in the home?


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Did you put water in the condensate drain? i think i see some in the loop


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Thanks for the post!!!! Ok I have 4 complaints.....burnt drywall,no union on gas between valve and appliance, the gas pipe is pitched down from the 1st turn to the 2nd turn(out of level) and the support boards could have been cut longer and utilized to strap the gas...insted of having pieces of boards....maybe mount a piece of 3/4" plywood next time and make it big enough to strap everything to one board. I'm impressed your using copper. Thanks for the post. Please take this post as constructive criticism. I mean who cares what I think but if I were to install at my house those are the little things i would have liked to see as a homeowner myself.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Next time take measurments and pre-fab the copper or use a heat shield.:thumbsup:


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

GREENPLUM said:


> that ball valve on the GAS line? Here is what I use.


I'm not familiar with the brand of ball valve that Tankless used but generally the "non HO Depot" IPS ballvalves far exceed code requirements whereas the ball type appliance shutoffs just meet the requirements. Note the 14" wc max. cap. on your Nibco (1/2 psi). No problem for 3.5" nat and still covered for 11" propane. The ball valve Tankless used is prolly min. 150# WOG and AGA/CGA certified.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Tankless said:


> That's sorta why I post up jobs from time to time, so others can see how its done elsewhere....same idea with the DWV post I made that didn't really take off.
> 
> If you stick around you will hear things like drip legs are not required because in CA we have....as they say "dry gas"....versus wet gas so we don't need them. And for that type of gas pipe I ran, manu states non metallic strapping or where there is no metal in contact (insulated hangars.....etc..).
> 
> ...


 High pressure gas systems are pretty much moisture free...low pressure however will collect condensation. The gas is pretty much the same except for the amount or type of smelling agent the gas supplier uses's.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

TheMaster said:


> . . . no union on gas between valve and appliance, . . .


 
::heh heh:: Thas the one I was waiting for.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Nice work, I think it all looks good. I think it's funny that some folks criticize that don't even install tankless! Too funny man!:laughing:

I just got done with the class for Rinnai this week, good class. We also compared the Rinnai to other brands including the Noritz. I decided to stick with the Riannai.

The Rinnai R75 would be my most common install around here. It's already a concentric type vent with the built in condensate drain, has been for a while on these units. Rinnai was the first to recognize this problem and acted.
Also Rinnai is the only manufacture that claims dual use for their units, the others do not. Dual use meaning the same unit can be used for both residential and commercial applications.

Also Noritz does not publish minimum activation rates for their units. They do publish minimum flow rates but that's different. I wonder why they don't publish these numbers?

Also the minimum btus is greater on the Rinnai's compared to the Noritz, which can make a big difference. Regarding the 75's, Rinnai 15K, Noritz 12K.

I think the biggest difference which makes me not want to install the Noritz in my area is the fact that Rinnai's have a scale build up sensor warning, the Noritz does not and that's huge in my area. It gives you time to clean the unit before it's ruined.

The second biggest difference is the warranty on the 75's residential. Heat exchanger - parts and labor, 12/5 on the Rinnai's, 10/3 on the Noritz. Also Rinnai has 24/7 live support, Noritz does not.

These tankless units are not hard to install, it's basic plumbing and I'll be posting pictures of my installs. I'm also scheduled for the all day class to become a service tech. for Rinnai. We sort of went through some of it in the certification class, seems pretty basic to me. Flashing codes for most everything.

I agree with you tankless, let's see some of the pictures from others installations. :thumbsup:
You'll be seeing mine soon.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

ironranger said:


> Nice work, I think it all looks good. quote]
> 
> BBQed sheetrock Does not look Professional to me. Rookie mistake:laughing:


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

GREENPLUM said:


> ironranger said:
> 
> 
> > Nice work, I think it all looks good. quote]
> ...


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

ironranger said:


> GREENPLUM said:
> 
> 
> > You've never had a burn mark when soldering, ever? You're good!:thumbup:
> ...


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

GREENPLUM said:


> ironranger said:
> 
> 
> > yes sure, I have burnt stuff and yes I am good. But I am very carefull when Im installing a Tankless WH. I make it a Point NOT to burn the sheetrock. I use a BOCA Plate to guard the walls and put a towel on the floor. These HO are paying alot of money for a Professional installation, burnt walls/studs just dont cut it. I would have known to prefab my copper supplies before I roasted the wall. live and learn:smartass:
> ...


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

ironranger said:


> GREENPLUM said:
> 
> 
> > I just use a piece of sheet tin I have in the van, works just fine for me. In about a week from now I won't have to worry about it on my W/H installs, they will all be pressed.:thumbsup:
> ...


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Yeah...I bbq'd the drywall....i know. Frywall guy was comming behind me to patch everything up and paint. I didn't intend to torch up the wall, but i did. Now, it's not chared (sp?) up or anything just blackened. I don't prefab my copper, never have really....

The ball valve is a Nibco full port valve. 600 WOG. I don't like using unions, I don't need it, nor is it required. If I hard piped the gas, that's obviously different.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Protech said:


> I wanna see that gas bill. How many hot water users in the home?


 
2 just the husband and wife


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

How do you press a fitting on a pipe that sticking 1" out of a brick wall? Does the head adjust for that situation?


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

GREENPLUM said:


> Did you put water in the condensate drain? i think i see some in the loop


 
Are you seriously asking me that question?


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Miguel said:


> I'm not familiar with the brand of ball valve that Tankless used but generally the "non HO Depot" IPS ballvalves far exceed code requirements whereas the ball type appliance shutoffs just meet the requirements. Note the 14" wc max. cap. on your Nibco (1/2 psi). No problem for 3.5" nat and still covered for 11" propane. The ball valve Tankless used is prolly min. 150# WOG and AGA/CGA certified.


 
Who the hell is not familiar with a Nibco valve?


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> High pressure gas systems are pretty much moisture free...low pressure however will collect condensation. The gas is pretty much the same except for the amount or type of smelling agent the gas supplier uses's.


 
Not out here. It's pretty dry....


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

GREENPLUM said:


> ironranger said:
> 
> 
> > Nice work, I think it all looks good. quote]
> ...


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

ironranger said:


> Nice work, I think it all looks good. I think it's funny that some folks criticize that don't even install tankless! Too funny man!:laughing:
> 
> Also Rinnai is the only manufacture that claims dual use for their units, the others do not. Dual use meaning the same unit can be used for both residential and commercial applications.
> 
> ...


 
I didn't know they has a scale sensor...that's pretty cool. I know Rinnai has had concentric for years.....They both have pros and cons...i guess


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

TheMaster said:


> Thanks for the post!!!! Ok I have 4 complaints.....burnt drywall,no union on gas between valve and appliance, the gas pipe is pitched down from the 1st turn to the 2nd turn(out of level) and the support boards could have been cut longer and utilized to strap the gas...insted of having pieces of boards....maybe mount a piece of 3/4" plywood next time and make it big enough to strap everything to one board. I'm impressed your using copper. Thanks for the post. Please take this post as constructive criticism. I mean who cares what I think but if I were to install at my house those are the little things i would have liked to see as a homeowner myself.


 
Originally I planned on bringing the gas down the other side of the unit, but once I sized it all up, it would have been like 3 more turns in the pipe that was not needed. There was room on the boards for it, but I had to get it done and the pipe is secure. It's certainly isn't my prettiest job it's just an average installation. I have plenty of "show" quality jobs where I had the budget to make things extra nice, but that was the point of this post...it's not fancy, it just is what it is. I don't mind criticisms, I'm a big boy....:thumbsup:


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

wheres the drip leg, required here, at the meter?(re read thread, nevermind)


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Tankless said:


> I didn't know they has a scale sensor...that's pretty cool. I know Rinnai has had concentric for years.....They both have pros and cons...i guess



I thought the same thing about flow rate and activation rate but on the comparison sheet it says it's different, I don't know for sure. Rinnai's is 0.6 so it sounds sort of the same to me.

I was also told that even though the units have the condensate drain it's not required for less than 5 feet of vent. They're plugged from the factory. Most of my installs will be on a basement wall with less than five feet of vent.

This may sound like a stupid question but why the loop or trap in the condensate drain? The condensation drain comes off the fresh air part of the concentric vent, there is no chance of gas escaping into the drain. I see you have it piped to the outside anyway. My installs will be drained into a floor drain or sink and that's why I did ask this question during the class.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Tankless said:


> Originally I planned on bringing the gas down the other side of the unit, but once I sized it all up, it would have been like 3 more turns in the pipe that was not needed. There was room on the boards for it, but I had to get it done and the pipe is secure. It's certainly isn't my prettiest job it's just an average installation. I have plenty of "show" quality jobs where I had the budget to make things extra nice, but that was the point of this post...it's not fancy, it just is what it is. I don't mind criticisms, I'm a big boy....:thumbsup:


I think it's a great installation tankless, I don't see a problem with it and it doesn't have to be fancy.


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## Plumbworker (Oct 23, 2008)

not bad man..:thumbup: but i not feeling the crooked csst with the copper flexifin plastics straps.. i know it cuts down on labor big time i quess i'm just a hard pipe man myself. if i was running it in csst i would have fabbed up a little hard pipe assembly with a dirt leg , union and fp ball valve them adapt to flex..


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Plumbworker said:


> not bad man..:thumbup: but i not feeling the crooked csst with the copper flexifin plastics straps.. i know it cuts down on labor big time i quess i'm just a hard pipe man myself. if i was running it in csst i would have fabbed up a little hard pipe assembly with a dirt leg , union and fp ball valve them adapt to flex..


That's the way I'll be doing them, it's required here.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

Tankless said:


> Who the hell is not familiar with a Nibco valve?


Is that a Nibco 1/4 turn ball valve? I've seen the Nibco appliance cocks that ... um, "that guy" posted (sorry, mate, I don't recall yer handle right at the moment). In my locale we're more used to the M.A.Stewart or Apollo ball valves.

My point was that the long handled ball valve you used was far superior to the "these are included with every heater I buy" gascock.

Sheesh. Quit pissin' on me. . . you hack!  lol
Seriously, it looked to be a very professional job and Im impressed. I would have used a similar valve (like a M.A.Stewart certified to CSA 3.16a) and I would have had the valve alongside the unit, easy to reach by either homeowner or tech, and hardpiped after w/ a ground joint union and a 1" drip leg with a 3" nipple in beautiful BI steel.

But that's just me and where I live, which happens to be on one of planet Earth's largest chunks of granite that DOES NOT MOVE, so I might also have chuckled at the flexible water connections and the earthquake restraints on the unit you replaced.

Um, I wouldn't've scorched the drywall tho. Nope. Wouldn'ta done that. :laughing:


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Miguel said:


> *I'm not familiar with the brand of ball valve that Tankless used but generally the* "non HO Depot" IPS ballvalves far exceed code requirements whereas the ball type appliance shutoffs just meet the requirements. Note the 14" wc max. cap. on your Nibco (1/2 psi). No problem for 3.5" nat and still covered for 11" propane. The ball valve Tankless used is prolly min. 150# WOG and AGA/CGA certified.


I guess I misunderstood what you were saying. I buy the best parts I can. I take a hit in the profit department because I want my installs done right. If the CSST is a 1/4" outta plumb, I can live with it.

How many ppl said something about my plastic straps? Yet it's required to not allow metallic straps by the manufacturer. The CSST is ran loosley on purpose because it's sopposed to for expansion. I also know that no drip leg is taboo for the rest of the world, but here, it serves no purpose and is not required. People whine about no union ....with CSST that is the dumbest F-ing thing you could do. Gas Tite fittins are made to be taken apart and re assembled all day long. First gen of Trac pipe was not...now most of them are reuseable. So what benefit does it serve beside another joing that I have to deal with?

Listen boys, when you have done as many of these like I have and you do them the way I do them...I'll welcome your thoughts. I just have no patience for all the "Huuh, I wudda dun it dis way".....A: I could care less...B: than go F-ing do it.

I have no patience for difficult people.

Thank You to all of you who took the time out of your day to comment on my little job, whatever you think about it is cool with me....it was just something to talk about. And for all you who think you can do it better.....well, I assume you know how to post pictures...make sure you don't forget your camera at home..


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

I am almost 100% positive that "yelllow" tract pipe is banned here in FL. We have to now use







because of all the lighting around here.


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## TheMaster (Jun 12, 2009)

Mr. Tankless,
The union between the gas valve and the appliance would be so you can turn the gas off and then disconnect the gas supply from the appliance while the gas is off......and the gas is still on at the meter and serving the rest of the home if needed. To remove the gas line from the appliance the way you installed you must turn the METER off OR loosen the flex pipe connection so you can uncsrew it without twisting the flex..........the handle on your gas valve would not be able to spin in the off position....so the handle would hafta be removed or left in the on position. Basically your union(flex pipe fitting) is on the WRONG side of the gas shut off for service purpose.
Add this>......I realize the tankless you installed is the only gas appliance in the home but that doesn't mean it will stay that way,more gas appliances could be added at anytime.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Tankless said:


> GREENPLUM said:
> 
> 
> > LOL...Rookie? So where's your jobs big talker? Why don't you post up some everyday jobs? How's the view from the cheap seats? :laughing:
> ...


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

GREENPLUM said:


> Tankless said:
> 
> 
> > Chill out man, I was giving constructive critism. You posted a Pict, I looked at it as a Pro and gave you my opinion. Where you fried the wall looks bad! You cant turn the gas off without turning the whole house off. These are facts. This is a Pro Plumbing forum what did you expect? :whistling2:
> ...


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

Plumbworker said:


> not bad man..:thumbup: but i not feeling the crooked csst with the copper flexifin plastics straps.. i know it cuts down on labor big time i quess i'm just a hard pipe man myself. if i was running it in csst i would have fabbed up a little hard pipe assembly with a dirt leg , union and fp ball valve them adapt to flex..


This is the only way I'll hook up a gas appliance. Code req. here.


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Ok boys......

Here's the deal. I'm spent
I am so exhausted that I can't even think straight. The past two weeks are seriously killing me. My wife and kids went to Vegas for what was sopposed to be the last family thing of the summer and I have skipped out on all of them because of work. This trip was planned months ago, when I realized that I was gonna be crammed around the time to leave I thought of booking a flight. As I got closer to the departure date I sadly realized I just couldn't do it. My girls are at Blue Man Group tonight and I still have weeks of work lined up that I can't even imagine taking a day off.

Point is I am pissed off. I pissed at my customers (stupid i know), I am really pissed at myself for allowing this mess to take place and I took it out on you all last night. For that I am sorry. I know I am PMS'ing badly these days, I have a headach that won't go away and my body is letting me know to not get too comfortable with this schedule. I have been 7 days for almost 3 or 4 weeks now and I am sick of it. I haven't gotten out of my God for saken city in.......well, since Spring Training and that was for only 2 days.

Anyways I do apologize for my attitude, I am aware of it and am working on things for myself.

I appreciate the comments, and now that I think about it, it would make sense to be able to remove the unit with out having to shut gas down to the entire home. It's an easy thing to do and the next guy will appreciate it...maybe.

Anyhow, sorry everyone:confused1:


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Well, I am for one, Impressed. We all have bad days man. I get in a hurry sometimes too. We all do, some of us will probably never admit it either. Your price you quoted, that ended up dead even with the bill, all part of being busy as hell, and overlooking minor things.


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

Forget about it.:laughing:


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## leak1 (Mar 25, 2009)

opinions are like a-holes everybodys got one!


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## TDB (Jun 25, 2008)

Tankless said:


> ...and now that I think about it, it would make sense to be able to remove the unit with out having to shut gas down to the entire home.


What code are you using? That gas line would not pass inspection here due to the union issues already posted and possibly a drip leg. They rarely enforce drip legs on retros here... but the appliance MUST be capable of being removed from the system without shutting down services. I thought that was standard nation wide...

Did this pass inspection? or are you not pulling a permit?...


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## ESPinc (Jul 18, 2009)

Tankless, take a break and try to relax. I was working seven days a week up until the doc a couple weeks back told me to slow down. 

TDB, this was in another post and it passed



Tankless said:


> Client called me and said the inspector was very impressed and spent a little while "just standing there and staring". Thanks!





Tankless said:


> Another satisfied customer....


That's the most important thing right there!!


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## user823 (Feb 3, 2009)

In California most inspectors don't even know what they're looking at anyway.:whistling2:


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Time to hire some help if your that busy.


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## highpoint (Mar 3, 2009)

i lose my mind on when anybody puts a ball valve in 'upside down'. the handles always must 'fall' off. any body else have a rhyme or reason for the handles on their valves...ive seen direction of flow too...but it gets looking stupid in mech rooms.


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