# Van needs a jump



## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

So my van developed a weird problem. Every morning I have to jump start it. After the first jump in the morning, it's good all day, starts right up on the first crank. Never dies at all, drives great, it's just that first crank in the morning. All the lights on it shine bright. Altenator puts out 14 amps(checked with fluke). It was doing this before the back up camera install so I don't think that's an issue. 

I've checked the parasitic draw with a clamp on...nothing drawing amps. It has a 2 year old yellow top battery which I got checked out and it's also good. It has about 79k miles but it's an 2001 and I don't know when the spark plugs have been changed(I know I need to do this). 

Not sure if this matters but I also suspect that I have a blown head gasket as I go through a quart of antifreeze every 3 days....but there's no whit smoke and I just passed smog. Cheaper to keep adding antifreeze. Yes, I have changed all the hoses from the radiator to the engine and backflushed the radiator as well. 

Any ideas?


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

gear junkie said:


> So my van developed a weird problem. Every morning I have to jump start it. After the first jump in the morning, it's good all day, starts right up on the first crank. Never dies at all, drives great, it's just that first crank in the morning. All the lights on it shine bright. Altenator puts out 14 amps(checked with fluke). It was doing this before the back up camera install so I don't think that's an issue.
> 
> I've checked the parasitic draw with a clamp on...nothing drawing amps. It has a 2 year old yellow top battery which I got checked out and it's also good. It has about 79k miles but it's an 2001 and I don't know when the spark plugs have been changed(I know I need to do this).
> 
> ...


 Its the alternator !


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

You may be getting hydraulic lock in one or more cylinders as coolant leaks into the bores overnight. 

You may end up bending some bottom end goodies one of these jump start mornings if you don't get it sorted out.


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

pilot light said:


> Its the alternator !


Um. No.


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

short a few amps eh!


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

pilot light said:


> sort a few amps eh!


14 volts


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Yes, it's 14 volts. Sorry about that.

Hydraulic lock, makes sense but why would jumping change the situation? How could I test this?


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Check the oil to see if any gas or antifreeze in it


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

Blown heads?


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> Check the oil to see if any gas or antifreeze in it


Oil looks good.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

pilot light said:


> Blown heads?


I will say I haven't given it a compression test. This will show the leak but won't explain the starting problem.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Sounds like your battery is not holding it's charge.. First thing in the morning before you try starting it check the voltage on the battery ...

Also losing fluid is not a good sign.... It's going some where

-Either you are burning it
- going into oil pan
- leaking on the ground


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

It doesn't sound like it's anything I'd depend on to make a living or, park in a customers driveway....


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Redwood said:


> It doesn't sound like it's anything I'd depend on to make a living or, park in a customers driveway....


Yah but it's paid for...


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## pilot light (Apr 21, 2012)

for sale!


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Sounds like a starter solenoid issue.


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## express (Nov 22, 2008)

I ran my diesel truck for too long with bad head gaskets and the antifreeze I thought I was burning also burnt a hole in the piston and damaged the heads. During this time my 6.6 duramax still put an excavator up hills real strong. Engine is gone at this time, try not to wait too long


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## Bayside500 (May 16, 2009)

i would check for a good ground on the battery, in fact check all the connections on battery cables, and do not use those cheap battery cable end replacement clamps, use new cables if they are bad.

and have your battery tested at an auto parts place, i have had batteries go bad in less than 2 years, should be a free test.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

I'll side with the starter solenoid/ loose wire crowd. I had the same type of problem on a nissan POS. It ended up being heat related shrinkage of a wire from what I understand. The bad head gasket sounds right but I have never experienced it, thankfully.


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## MarkToo (Dec 17, 2011)

gear junkie said:


> I will say I haven't given it a compression test. This will show the leak but won't explain the starting problem.


The starting problem may be due to the higher compression resulting from fluid in a bore. The starter may not be able to crank the engine over on it's own. A boost gives it enough juice to overcome the higher compression and the fluid gets quickly dumped out the exhaust valve.

If when you try to start it in the morning, it seems like it turns the engine over a partial revolution then suddenly stops, unable to continue to crank further, then I put my money on antifreeze in a cylinder.

Based on your description of all the things going on right now, that's my best guess.

Just to be clear, when you crank it over in the morning, you hear the solenoid click in and the engine seems to turn over at least a bit before just stopping?

All electrical functions are normal? Lights bright? Volt meter showing 13.5-14 volts?

If so, be careful as cranking the engine with even a little fluid in a cylinder can bend a rod or break a piston very easily.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

DesertOkie said:


> I'll side with the starter solenoid/ loose wire crowd. I had the same type of problem on a nissan POS. It ended up being heat related shrinkage of a wire from what I understand. The bad head gasket sounds right but I have never experienced it, thankfully.


I owned a Volkswagon Rabbit back in the 70's that had a chronic solenoid problem. Once I figured out what the issue was I permanently installed an aftermarket horn button that bypassed the solenoid altogether.

Just put in the key, turn it to the on position, tap the horn button and it would fire right up.


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## bizzybeeplumbin (Jul 19, 2011)

If the engine checks out to be fine, what about the starter or solenoid? sometimes the older vehicles have a seperate solenoid that locks up.

Was that the vehicle that was just for sale? Bummer.


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## PLUMBER_BILL (Oct 23, 2009)

gear junkie said:


> So my van developed a weird problem. Every morning I have to jump start it.
> 
> I had the very same problem on my truck. It turned out that there was a separate ground to the frame from the starter. The frame rusted and the ground connrection was lost it would start when it was jumped. Mechanic took a grinder shined up the frame around the ground connection hole in the frame. Then made a new connection -- problem fixed.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

MarkToo said:


> The starting problem may be due to the higher compression resulting from fluid in a bore. The starter may not be able to crank the engine over on it's own. A boost gives it enough juice to overcome the higher compression and the fluid gets quickly dumped out the exhaust valve.
> 
> If when you try to start it in the morning, it seems like it turns the engine over a partial revolution then suddenly stops, unable to continue to crank further, then I put my money on antifreeze in a cylinder.
> 
> ...


Cranks normal, just doesn't fire, doesn't stop unless I let go of the key...that's why I was leaning towards the spark plugs. Yes, on the electrical functions being normal.

Shinns...if it cranks normal, how is this a starter problem?

Bill....Never checked this and will check all the grounds.

Robert...this was the van for sale.

Express...did your Chevy show antifreeze in the oil or white smoke?

Thanks everyone for the comments.


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Widdershins said:


> I owned a Volkswagon Rabbit back in the 70's that had a chronic solenoid problem. Once I figured out what the issue was I permanently installed an aftermarket horn button that bypassed the solenoid altogether.
> 
> Just put in the key, turn it to the on position, tap the horn button and it would fire right up.


Funny, I have a 94dodge with the same set up.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

If it cranks and doesn't fire it could be the coil.... Or maybe spark wires or distributor


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## express (Nov 22, 2008)

gear junkie said:


> Cranks normal, just doesn't fire, doesn't stop unless I let go of the key...that's why I was leaning towards the spark plugs. Yes, on the electrical functions being normal.
> 
> Shinns...if it cranks normal, how is this a starter problem?
> 
> ...


Just white smoke, sometimes blueish. Some days it would cough and buck and other days run like a race horse


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

express said:


> Just white smoke, sometimes blueish. Some days it would cough and buck and other days run like a race horse


See what's weird is mine shows no smoke and even passed smog. Talked to a mechanic friend and he told me if there is any water/antifreeze in the chamber, the spark plug will look clean. What he mentioned is to check the amp draw on the starter when starting, if it's old and rough, it'll draw excessive current. 

Bill, the ground goes straight into a wire harness. I didn't see any visible ground for the starter.

I'm going to change the spark plugs, wire and rotor cap first, I know this needs to get done anyway.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Toss a coin heads for ignition, tails for fuel....


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Pull the battery out of it and take a close look at it! I have seen batteries with a hole in the case that a fluke meter would read 12-14v because they put almost no load on the battery. A good load tester would also tell you 100% on the battery.


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## deerslayer (Mar 29, 2012)

Also it is usually the oposite but timing could also be an issue? Haven't seen many timing issues on electronic ign.though but the older vehicles if the timing was a little of would start better when cold vs hot and vice versa.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Thanks deer. i'll look into timing as well. I'm at a point where even Redwood's ideas and comments seem to be helpful.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

You won't see timing issues the ECU and Knock Sensors take care of that...

I'll say it one more time you either have an ignition or fuel problem.
Flip your coin without test equipment and throw expensive parts at it..

Probably a high resistance connection that is overcome by the jump start.
The GMC Savana & Chevy Express did have high resistance problems on the fuel pump connection that has since been changed to a different connector.

As for your coolant loss check the weep hole on the water pump if you are lucky it will be wet...

Are you getting any stored codes in the ECU?


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

No codes at all pop up, says it's fine. I went to pepboys and autozone and they both said no faults were found. Would you happen to know how to find the tsb on the fuel pump? The fuel pump was replaced when I first bought it because it was bad. I thought it was good....maybe not?

The high resistence, how and what should I check?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I'd start with checking for spark and fuel pressure.
Then you'll know which direction to head.

Once you get direction use a volt meter measuring from the + battery to the load and from the load to the - battery. You should read 0-volts or, a minimum voltage drop through the wires and switches. If you read a voltage you have found the high resistance and then you just keep measuring to narrow it down. You'll need a wiring diagram or, you'll be a fish out of water.

The fuel pump connection they had the problem with was a 4 pin connector plug that was square, this was changed to a 4 pin WeatherPak connector that was rectangular with 4 in a row vs. the 2 over 2. You won't get a voltage drop reading on this because it is the connection at the load that is bad.

Can you hear the fuel pump cycle when you turn the key on?
The fuel pressure test port is on the rear drivers side of the intake manifold fuel rail and should be 60 - 65 psi...

The spark should be bluish/white and not yellowish/orange...

http://shar.es/tYuZf

Open the gas cap to relieve the pressure in the fuel tank before breaking open the fuel pressure test port!


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Started it up yesterday and it wouldn't start for nothing. Loud grinding noise. Pulled the starter and the shaft the gear rides on had about 1/4 play, side to side. put a new one in, nothing but the grinding noise was gone.

Also discovered that my clamp on only checks AC amps, not DC. Getting a DC ampmeter today to check parasitic draw. Then....

cleaning up the ground wire connection

then going through everything Red said.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

So checking the tech manual...I need between 60-66 psi. Red, you were right on with it. Anyway I got 50 psi. I put a jump on it and it immediatley went to 62 and started like normal. Sounded way better with the new starter.

So now, is it the pump or is it the battery? 

Pump...is it drawing to much and when adding the second battery, it overcomes any problems in there? But the pump was replaced when I bought it but the dealer replaced it...he might've used a junk part, whatever just to get it running.

Or the battery? The battery was tested by 2 places but maybe is still not putting out enough? What if the guys didn't know how to test the battery? BTW, I wasn't able to get the DC ampmeter. 

The ampmeter is my next step to check parasitic draw, then I buy a new battery. Any thoughts or input from everyone else?


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Got the DC ampmeter...no parasitic draw. Changed the battery anyway because I'm stubborn/stupid at times. Now I'm getting only 45 psi at the test port. I put the gauge before the filter and also read 45 so at least the filter isn't bad.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Run that fuel tank down really empty...
Makes it a lot easier to drop it... :laughing:

Just for the hell of it give the battery connectors a good long soak in a baking soda and water mix...

The GM EFI is super sensitive to fuel pressure problems...

You can use a voltmeter to check for high resistance in the wires from the battery to the fuel pump...


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

I have an access panel to pull the pump. I have 2 thoughts towards what the problem is...

Bad fuel pump. It does get 12 volts to the pump but it is the 2x2 connection like Red was talking about. Maybe it has internal binding causing the need for more amps to bump the pressure to 60 psi?

Option 2 is more of a long shot...bad fuel pressure regulator. What if it's stuck open, allowing to much flow? No restriction=no pressure?

Sooo I'm going to replace my fuel pump. It was replaced when I first bought it and I believe the wrong one was installed. I checked the part number on it and it doesn't come up as a compatible match from the manufacter.


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## ChrisConnor (Dec 31, 2009)

I've had bad battery terminals on a Ford LT8000 and a van cause the same problem. They looked fine, but would only crank if the truck was jumped. Replaced them and the problem went away.


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## bizzybeeplumbin (Jul 19, 2011)

Your like a DIY that can't fix his toilet, it goes on for weeks and he throws parts at it.

Maybe its cheaper to take it in and get it fixed already? Whats your hourly rate? Now multiply that times the amount you have put into it in man hours.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Soooo what is the fuel pressure with the engine running?

If it's the connector on the pump it will stay low...


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

bizzybeeplumbin said:


> Your like a DIY that can't fix his toilet, it goes on for weeks and he throws parts at it.
> 
> Maybe its cheaper to take it in and get it fixed already? Whats your hourly rate? Now multiply that times the amount you have put into it in man hours.


I see your point but there's something to be said about being self reliant. Business wise...I should've taken it to the shop but in my heart, I'm fixing this van whether it likes it or not.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Redwood said:


> Soooo what is the fuel pressure with the engine running?
> 
> If it's the connector on the pump it will stay low...


It was 40 psi.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Redwood goes all in with a tall stack onto change the fuel pump and splicing in the 4 in a row WeatherPac connector....

Put the crappy butt splices that come with the new pump in the circular file where they belong, and use some decent ones that have heatshrink tubing with adhesive on them....


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

DONE SON!! got the new fuel pump in today and it starts great. New one is putting out 62 starting, 57 running. I didn't get a chance to try her out on the road so we'll see tomorrow morning. For anyone else having to do this, you need a 29/64 drill bit to install the fuel sensor. 

Thanks again Red, your suggestion about the fuel pressure was key to getting this done. If you ever come down to cali, I owe you a drink.


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