# c.p.v.c. flow guard gold



## Flyin Brian

on c.p.v.c. flow guard gold pipe can you run it right off the nipples of a water heater or do you have to bring copper up then adapt back to c.p.v.c.?


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## Plumbworker

gas copper yes unions within 12" and a fp bv on the feed


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

Plumbworker said:


> gas yes



oops.:whistling2:


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## Plumbworker

ROCKSTARPLUMBER said:


> oops.:whistling2:


lol i must be missing somthing here givin away tade ish maybe?


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## RealLivePlumber

Maybe you wanna check with the manufacturer. You could use a computer, and get on the manufacturers "website":whistling2:


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## ILPlumber

Ita be fine. I transition all my copper mains to CPVC before hooking to water heaters or boilers. The plastic threads make up much easier.


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## Protech

And put some WD-40 on the threads so that they go on easier.


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## Redwood

ILPlumber said:


> Ita be fine. I transition all my copper mains to CPVC before hooking to water heaters or boilers. The plastic threads make up much easier.


Wow I do that too...:thumbup:


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## Plasticman

ILPlumber said:


> Ita be fine. I transition all my copper mains to CPVC before hooking to water heaters or boilers. The plastic threads make up much easier.


 
Umm, was I mistaken about an earler post about ,, nevermind. Supper is ready


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## SummPlumb

On a gas water heater, I always stick up copper then convert over to CPVC. The CPVC gets very brittle, over time, from the heat the draft diverter throws out before the exhaust heats up the vent pipe. But that is just me.


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## CEO

Protech said:


> And put some WD-40 on the threads so that they go on easier.


 
this practice is not recommended.

Cpvc is fine for direct hook up on water heaters.


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## Airgap

CEO said:


> this practice is not recommended.
> 
> Cpvc is fine for direct hook up on water heaters.


Not in my world it's not...


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## ToUtahNow

Be real careful with any chemicals around CPVC. Manufacturers have a full list of the chemicals to stay away from including WD-40.

http://www.lubrizol.com/BuildingSolutions/ChemicalCompatibility/incompatible.html

I had a condo project where the plumbers used Acousto-Plumb isolators on FlowGuard Gold which seemed like a great idea but it was a major blunder. The chemicals in the Acousto-Plumb changed the CPVC into a balloon like material that popped and would flood units.

Mark


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## Protech

I was being sarcastic bud. And no, cpvc is not OK to hook direclty up to water heaters if they are gas. Go read your flowguard installation manual.



CEO said:


> this practice is not recommended.
> 
> Cpvc is fine for direct hook up on water heaters.


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## Protech

I was following matt's sarcasm about transitioning to cpvc for heaters and boilers. I guess no one caught that.

I'm the guy who showed everyone the article about environmental stress cracking in the thread "Not a way to start the new year" remember?



ToUtahNow said:


> Be real careful with any chemicals around CPVC. Manufacturers have a full list of the chemicals to stay away from including WD-40.
> 
> http://www.lubrizol.com/BuildingSolutions/ChemicalCompatibility/incompatible.html
> 
> I had a condo project where the plumbers used Acousto-Plumb isolators on FlowGuard Gold which seemed like a great idea but it was a major blunder. The chemicals in the Acousto-Plumb changed the CPVC into a balloon like material that popped and would flood units.
> 
> Mark


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## Protech

What, like this (see picture)?:whistling2: That was from WD-40.

The isolators you are talking about contain a plasticizer that softens the cpvc when it leaches into the resin. When it softens, it balloons up because it is too soft to resist the internal water pressure anymore.



ToUtahNow said:


> Be real careful with any chemicals around CPVC. Manufacturers have a full list of the chemicals to stay away from including WD-40.
> 
> http://www.lubrizol.com/BuildingSolutions/ChemicalCompatibility/incompatible.html
> 
> I had a condo project where the plumbers used Acousto-Plumb isolators on FlowGuard Gold which seemed like a great idea but it was a major blunder. The chemicals in the Acousto-Plumb changed the CPVC into a balloon like material that popped and would flood units.
> 
> Mark


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## Nevada Plumber

I can't understand why anyone would want to use CPVC pipe on a large scale with all that list of products that are chemically incompatible with it. It just seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

I was surprised to see IPS White Seal is not compatible with CPVC. The can I am holding in my hand says "White Seal may be used for threaded connections on all metals, ABS, PVC, CPVC, including FlowGuard Gold, BlazeMaster, Corzan, and Polypropylene and Nylon plastics." I'm glad I don't deal with much CPVC out here.


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## GREENPLUM

Nevada Plumber said:


> I can't understand why anyone would want to use CPVC pipe on a large scale with all that list of products that are chemically incompatible with it. It just seems like a disaster waiting to happen.
> 
> I was surprised to see IPS White Seal is not compatible with CPVC. The can I am holding in my hand says "White Seal may be used for threaded connections on all metals, ABS, PVC, CPVC, including FlowGuard Gold, BlazeMaster, Corzan, and Polypropylene and Nylon plastics." I'm glad I don't deal with much CPVC out here.


if you think cpvc is bad, check out the do's and dont's using pex.:thumbsup:


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## ToUtahNow

Protech said:


> What, like this (see picture)?:whistling2: That was from WD-40.
> 
> The isolators you are talking about contain a plasticizer that softens the cpvc when it leaches into the resin. When it softens, it balloons up because it is too soft to resist the internal water pressure anymore.


What was so aggravating to me is that both the FlowGuard and the Acousto-Plumb literature says they are not compatible with each other and still the plumber used them.

Mark


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## Protech

Installing plumber: "Can't see it from my house. <continues slinging glue>"



ToUtahNow said:


> What was so aggravating to me is that both the FlowGuard and the Acousto-Plumb literature says they are not compatible with each other and still the plumber used them.
> 
> Mark


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## Protech

Huh?



GREENPLUM said:


> if you think cpvc is bad, check out the do's and dont's using pex.:thumbsup:


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## GREENPLUM

have we had the "PEX vs CPVC" war yet?


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## Protech

not yet. Bring it :jester:



GREENPLUM said:


> have we had the "PEX vs CPVC" war yet?


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## GREENPLUM

CPVC is better than Pex, i trained a monkey to install pex and now she is workin for BF.


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## service guy

see below ...


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## service guy

cpvc shatters, and is easily damaged by chemicals in the environment.
junk.


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## GREENPLUM

i can do a CPVC job cheaper than pex


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## GREENPLUM

pex reminds me of my garden hose, and polybute


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## service guy

GREENPLUM said:


> i can do a CPVC job cheaper than pex


What kind of warranty? Cheaper is rarely better.


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## GREENPLUM

does CPVC have any class action suits??


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## service guy

I have been doing plumbing repair fulltime for 13 years. I have seen LOADS of cpvc failures. Just tons of repairs done. It is extremely rare for me to have to repair pex. I can't remember the last time I had to repair a pex pipe that failed.


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## GREENPLUM

service guy said:


> What kind of warranty? Cheaper is rarely better.


1 year, just like every other job i do. Most of the folks i work for could care less how long it will last vs how much money it is now. Polybute did some serious emotional damage to people around here, hard to sell PEX, people think your tryin to sell them some crappy PB type pipe. 

What would you pex plumbers use if you needed a 2" main H+C and copper was out of the question?


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## GREENPLUM

service guy said:


> I have been doing plumbing repair fulltime for 13 years. I have seen LOADS of cpvc failures. Just tons of repairs done. It is extremely rare for me to have to repair pex. I can't remember the last time I had to repair a pex pipe that failed.


So your sayin CPVC makes you more money than Pex. i might be missin something here


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## Protech

I don't know. It should, I've done proly more than 40 cpvc leak repairs that spontaneously cracked and flooded houses over the past few years and that's just in my small service area. It's probably in the thousands on a nationwide level.

Let me ask you something. How long to you typically guarantee your CPVC repipes? :whistling2:



GREENPLUM said:


> does CPVC have any class action suits??


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## GREENPLUM

Protech said:


> I don't know. It should, I've done proly more than 40 cpvc leak repairs that spontaneously cracked and flooded houses over the past few years and that's just in my small service area. It's probably in the thousands on a nationwide level.
> 
> Let me ask you something. How long to you typically guarantee your CPVC repipes? :whistling2:


 
1year :thumbsup: for CPVC , PEX, COPPER, GALV, PVC, lets not make this personal, thanks:laughing:


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## GREENPLUM

Pex must taste good, picky rats even eat it


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## GREENPLUM

ive never seen CPVC "just shatter" for no reason at all. It must be installed properly, you cant install in "in a bind" or years later it might shatter. all the law suits, bad fittings, bad pipe, pex is kinda whorish when deciding on which brand do i use and wont have a class action in a year.


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## Bonafide

Trying not to take sides but cpvc becomes brittle during winterizations


As for the WH, up here code says no pex or cpvc with 2' of any connecting terminals.


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## Protech

No but it does when exposed to a huge list a standard household substances, or when it freezes, or when to much cement is used or if it is subjected to any sort of thermal expansion stresses or if it's nudged when it gets old and exposed to repeated high temperatures.

I also like how the water smells and tastes of MEK for weeks after you put a cpvc system in. MMMMMMM, that's good for the human body.

Oh here's another good one, how bout all the noise the hot pipes make if they are allowed to touch anything. You know, that damn "tick, tick, tick" sound you here in the attic and walls after you use any hot water. People love that. I also like how everyone cuts it with ratchet cutters and the lip that the cutters make wipe the glue off the inside of the fitting. The coolest part about that is the joint usually holds for 3-4 years before it starts to drip or just flat out blows apart. I also like how every so often you get those defective fittings that split down the knit line and flood buildings out. For some reason there has been no lawsuit on that even though it's a wide spread and well known phenomenon cause by a defective manufacturing process. Don't believe me watch 



.

Another thing I notice about the cpvc glue slingers is that they never stand behind their product. Every company I know off that repipes in cpvc only puts their name on it for 1 year. Most of the pex using plumbers in my area offer a decent warranty. I think the lowest one was 6 years. Usually 10 to 25 though. Why is that? If cpvc is so great, why doesn't anyone that uses it offer a warranty with it? 1 year? That's a joke. You could do the whole system in clear pvc glue with no primer and it would hold for 1 year. You could bow every fitting and install it out in the sun and it would last a year. That right there shows just how much you believe in your material.

A friend of mine in Orlando is now repiping house that were already repiped once in cpvc a decade ago in pex now. The pipes in the attic especially become as brittle as glass due to the constant high heat and thermal cycling. I myself have gone into attics were you can simply TOUCH the cpvc and it will snap off right at the line of glue at the rim of the fitting.

Another great aspect of cpvc is that even if you install it perfectly right and wrap all of it to protect it from chemicals being spilled on it, the city water department can do a threaded repair on a galvanized street main and the oil can contaminate the water supply. When this oil travels into your lines it will weaken them from the inside and there is nothing you can do to prevent it. What? BS you say? Check this out.

Your move green 



GREENPLUM said:


> ive never seen CPVC "just shatter" for no reason at all. It must be installed properly, you cant install in "in a bind" or years later it might shatter. all the law suits, bad fittings, bad pipe, pex is kinda whorish when deciding on which brand do i use and wont have a class action in a year.


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## ToUtahNow

Another scary part with CPVC is that pesticides can damage it as well. So what happens when you call pest control out and they destroy your potable water piping while trying to stop pests? Are pest control companies aware of these problems? Can you imagine tenting your house to get rid of termites and finding it destroyed your potable water piping. Perhaps a large noticeable warning posted in the garage with all of the non-compatible chemicals should be required.

In defence of CPVC, most failures I have seen in CPVC were installation problems. When my City first started allowing CPVC on a limited basis they asked me to help write the Standards. My input was only factory trained, card carrying installers could install CPVC.

Mark


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## GREENPLUM

can you get me a vid of you "simply touching" CPVC and it breaking, id love to see that. The propaganda in this is great, it reminded me of old Joesph Goebbels.

My warranty is 1 YEAR no matter what, I dont hafta sell people on 6 year warranty's to get jobs. Believe what you want, im not a corrupt, out to get,or a fly by night plumber but i am still waiting on the call where my cpvc flooded anything. Ive got plenty of references that would agree that there CPVC is just fine including engineers.


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## GREENPLUM

How about pesticides on PEX, im sure its not good for it and will fail too.


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## Airgap

^^^3 to go....:thumbsup:


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## pauliplumber

GREENPLUM said:


> can you get me a vid of you "simply touching" CPVC and it breaking, id love to see that. The propaganda in this is great, it reminded me of old Joesph Goebbels.
> 
> My warranty is 1 YEAR no matter what, I dont hafta sell people on 6 year warranty's to get jobs. Believe what you want, im not a corrupt, out to get,or a fly by night plumber but i am still waiting on the call where my cpvc flooded anything. Ive got plenty of references that would agree that there CPVC is just fine including engineers.


I have no video, however I did a repipe a couple of years ago (cpvc to copper) and the cpvc would literally crush in your bare hands if squeezed a little. In all fairness I don't know how old it was, I would guess 10-15 years.


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## GREENPLUM

pauliplumber said:


> I have no video, however I did a repipe a couple of years ago (cpvc to copper) and the cpvc would literally crush in your bare hands if squeezed a little. In all fairness I don't know how old it was, I would guess 10-15 years.


i had the same thing happen with copper, you could crush it bare handed:thumbsup:


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## Airgap

I crush stainless steel barehanded!!....


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## Protech

Nope. It will not. Show me something proving otherwise.

You might also want to read this: 

http://www.rapra.net/consultancy/enviromental-testing-enviromental-stress-cracking.asp

and

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f21/not-way-start-year-6682/



GREENPLUM said:


> How about pesticides on PEX, im sure its not good for it and will fail too.


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## ToUtahNow

GREENPLUM said:


> can you get me a vid of you "simply touching" CPVC and it breaking, id love to see that. The propaganda in this is great, it reminded me of old Joesph Goebbels.
> 
> My warranty is 1 YEAR no matter what, I dont hafta sell people on 6 year warranty's to get jobs. Believe what you want, im not a corrupt, out to get,or a fly by night plumber but i am still waiting on the call where my cpvc flooded anything. Ive got plenty of references that would agree that there CPVC is just fine including engineers.


Ever system has it weaknesses and that why it is important for the installer to be aware of environmental conditions. PEX is touted as being chemical resistant. That of course does not mean there are not other vulnerabilities.

Mark


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## Protech

Camelot apartments on south orange avenue in the pine castle area of Orlando Florida. Original repipe was done by Michael's plumbing of central Florida. Unfortunately, I don't have pictures as this happened many years ago.

I've also has several cases were in new homes the original plumber put his risers for the tub inside the tub box (mostly slab on grade construction here). When I put my cutters on the cpvc risers (I was changing out a shower valve at the time) they simply snapped off at the point where they penetrated the tar that had been poured into the tub box to seal out termites. I ended up having to jack hammer the slab open to get away from the tar to tie on.

I don't have any proof at this moment but it will happen again and when it does I'll have a photo and video to slam in your face!
 



GREENPLUM said:


> can you get me a vid of you "simply touching" CPVC and it breaking, id love to see that. The propaganda in this is great, it reminded me of old Joesph Goebbels.
> 
> My warranty is 1 YEAR no matter what, I dont hafta sell people on 6 year warranty's to get jobs. Believe what you want, im not a corrupt, out to get,or a fly by night plumber but i am still waiting on the call where my cpvc flooded anything. Ive got plenty of references that would agree that there CPVC is just fine including engineers.


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## Protech

What? You mean like this: <see pics>

I think yer just making that up to bash cpvc, Mark :jester:



ToUtahNow said:


> Another scary part with CPVC is that pesticides can damage it as well. So what happens when you call pest control out and they destroy your potable water piping while trying to stop pests? Are pest control companies aware of these problems? Can you imagine tenting your house to get rid of termites and finding it destroyed your potable water piping. Perhaps a large noticeable warning posted in the garage with all of the non-compatible chemicals should be required.
> 
> In defence of CPVC, most failures I have seen in CPVC were installation problems. When my City first started allowing CPVC on a limited basis they asked me to help write the Standards. My input was only factory trained, card carrying installers could install CPVC.
> 
> Mark


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## GREENPLUM

Protech said:


> Camelot apartments on south orange avenue in the pine castle area of Orlando Florida. Original repipe was done by Michael's plumbing of central Florida. Unfortunately, I don't have pictures as this happened many years ago.
> 
> I've also has several cases were in new homes the original plumber put his risers for the tub inside the tub box (mostly slab on grade construction here). When I put my cutters on the cpvc risers (I was changing out a shower valve at the time) they simply snapped off at the point where they penetrated the tar that had been poured into the tub box to seal out termites. I ended up having to jack hammer the slab open to get away from the tar to tie on.
> 
> I don't have any proof at this moment but it will happen again and when it does I'll have a photo and video to slam in your face!


 till I see a Vid of you "Simply touching" CPVC and it breaking it aint gonna happen. Id bet you will "stage" up vid in the next few months anyway. 

O ya, that little story about you cutting cpvc risers, you could have avoided that by sawing the pipe instead of using ratchet cutters, I figured you would know that.:thumbsup:


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## Protech

Well, at the time I didn't know that I was working on a material that was weaker than and just as brittle as glass.



GREENPLUM said:


> till I see a Vid of you "Simply touching" CPVC and it breaking it aint gonna happen. Id bet you will "stage" up vid in the next few months anyway.
> 
> O ya, that little story about you cutting cpvc risers, you could have avoided that by sawing the pipe instead of using ratchet cutters, I figured you would know that.:thumbsup:


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## ToUtahNow

GREENPLUM said:


> 1year :thumbsup: for CPVC , PEX, COPPER, GALV, PVC, lets not make this personal, thanks:laughing:


Just as an FYI, when you do work like repipes or whatever your warranty may be different than what the State allows the property owner to seek legal remedy. Most areas out West give the homeowner 10-years to come after the contractor. I believe Georgia gives them 4-years.

Mark


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## Everflow

The only thing CVPC is good for is relief lines.

Bought my house about 10 years ago and it had CVPC last year I repiped to pex using Rehau fittings. After it cost me over 10 thousand in fixing my floors.

NEVER and I meen NEVER will I use CVPC.


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## GREENPLUM

Because of your ignorance (cutting old CPVC with ratchet cutter) the customer had to flip a major bill. I would have saved the customer money because I wouldn hafta bust up there slab like you did. Why didnt YOU sue the CPVC source? It failed premature right? You gotta a case right? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


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## Protech

It's known as "implied merchantability" here in Florida.

It cannot be waived in contract. No matter what you put in your contract, it may still apply depending on the circumstances of failure.



ToUtahNow said:


> Just as an FYI, when you do work like repipes or whatever your warranty may be different than what the State allows the property owner to seek legal remedy. Most areas out West give the homeowner 10-years to come after the contractor. I believe Georgia gives them 4-years.
> 
> Mark


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## Protech

What was the cause of the failure?



Everflow said:


> The only thing CVPC is good for is relief lines.
> 
> Bought my house about 10 years ago and it had CVPC last year I repiped to pex using Rehau fittings. After it cost me over 10 thousand in fixing my floors.
> 
> NEVER and I meen NEVER will I use CVPC.


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## Protech

It's been a long time but I think my boss opted to eat the cost of the jackhammering. His company, his decision. I don't think I would have eaten it if I was in his shoes at the time though.



GREENPLUM said:


> Because of you ignorance (cutting old CPVC with ratchet cutter) the customer had to flip a major bill. I would have saved the customer money because I wouldn hafta bust up there slab like you did. Why didnt YOU sue the CPVC source? It failed premature right? You gotta a case right? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


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## ToUtahNow

Lots of egos here which is a good thing when you're selling work. However, I'm not sure this is the right place to get personal. We all have our own opinions but we learn even more by listening to others.

Mark


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## Everflow

Protech said:


> What was the cause of the failure?


One was where they put a CVPC male adpt into the washer box broke in the threads. Another was were they put a angle stop on the pipe just spilt for 2'. The other one was were they come up through the floor to the water heater. All were on the cold side. All happened about a month apart when the house was about 10 years old.


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## Protech

Seems like that's about when I get the snaps and splits on the cpvc systems. 8-10 years.


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## pauliplumber

GREENPLUM said:


> i had the same thing happen with copper, you could crush it bare handed:thumbsup:


I've done the same with copper, usually DWV though. Type M copper (thin walled copper) will last a minimum 40 years here(excellent water quality). Type L, I really don't know as I've yet to see it fail. 

For me the jury is still out on pex. I've been using it about 5 years now without a single issue. It's been used in my area on a regular basis for about 10 years with very little problems. To soon to say for sure, but so far I'm impressed.


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## Redwood

All I know is when I go to a house that has had a freeze up and it's plumbed in CPVC I'm gonna make a ton of money....:thumbup:


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## JustDave45

*hey I know something...*

know what I know ? All plumbing fails ! I don't care if its ABS, PVC, copper, CPVC, sched 40, galvy, C.I. , PEX or the freakin UP-38 space modulator ! Lets face it we all use different stuff in different areas, we all love what we use and believe in it. I love reading all the different ideas and different positions on all this stuff but just remember what we all know, any of these methods are more likely to fail when someone who does not know what they are doing is responsible for them. BUT we, WE the guys who do this all the time DO know what we are doing with our methods/materials and stand behind it. But it does not mean that it will not fail at some time, everything eventually fails. Sorry to be such a new guy here spouting off but I just could not help it....


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## Cal

GO DAVE !! 

my .02 ,,, again . 

I'm a copper guy . I like and have HAD to use ( specd ) cpvc many times . It's ok ,,, ain't copper but seems to be working well for me .

A problem that haunts us all is -- WE DON'T Manufacturer these things but we sure as hell are the FIRST ones to take a beating when they fail !!! 

It is very hard to look a customer in the face when they are hollering about there dining room ceiling laying on the floor all because 20 years ago some yahoo didn't install some form of supply piping properly causing it to rub , split ,crack ,pinhole or whatever ! We don't make the stuff ,,, we just have to make it WORK great ! Quite stressful at times ,,,,


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## Protech

It's events like this that make me question my disbelief in a god. First call this morning I get a guy saying that he walked into his kitchen this morning and there was water pouring out from under his fridge. He shuts the water off at the valve outside and calls me. I call my water extraction guys out. When I get there the fridge is pulled out and there is a cpvc stop on the floor. The only thing I can figure is that the ice maker kicked on at some point in the night and the water hammer caused the cpvc to crack at the glue joint (where it always does). I repaired the pipe with pex and installed a hammer arrestor. So the question is, do you think that would have happened with pex or copper? I think not. CPVC sucks. Always has and always will.



GREENPLUM said:


> till I see a Vid of you "Simply touching" CPVC and it breaking it aint gonna happen. Id bet you will "stage" up vid in the next few months anyway.
> 
> O ya, that little story about you cutting cpvc risers, you could have avoided that by sawing the pipe instead of using ratchet cutters, I figured you would know that.:thumbsup:


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## Protech

more pics


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## Protech

yet more pics


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## Protech

still more pics


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## Protech

pics pics pics


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## Protech

Now I suppose you're going to say I staged that huh greenplumb


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## ToUtahNow

Nice repair but I am curious how you know the fracture was from water hammer and not damage from someone bumping it with the refrigerator since there is no ice-maker box?

Mark


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## Protech

I don't know that. I'm taking the HO's word on it. It's possible that he pushed the fridge into it though.

Addition: It doesn't really matter. Bottom line is, if it had been pex or copper that wouldn't have happened.


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## Cal

" Hydraulic Shock " ,,,, HAHAHAHAHA !!! Love it !


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## Ron

So why not install a icemaker box? wall was open.


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## Protech

How else would you explain it?



Cal said:


> " Hydraulic Shock " ,,,, HAHAHAHAHA !!! Love it !


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## Protech

The same 2 reasons it is every time, time and money. I didn't have one on my truck and he didn't want to pay a cent more than he needed to. The water extraction guys said they were going to cut more drywall and that they would put a 2x4 behind the cpvc and a strap that I left them.

But yes, a box would have been better. That's all he gets for $260 though.



Ron said:


> So why not install a icemaker box? wall was open.


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## Cal

Protech said:


> How else would you explain it?


 Easy big boy ,,, I just got a kick out of the term for water hammer :laughing:


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## plumb4fun

I have made repairs to the older CPVC failures that flooded the customers' houses . Is the newer Flow Guard Gold a superior upgrade from the older non Flowguard CPVC? My newer modular home is piped with it from the factory. 7 years and still going strong.


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## GREENPLUM

Protech said:


> How else would you explain it?


 
Id bet the fridge was pushed back too far and that alone put enuff force on the pipe to break it, you cant blame the CPVC for that. I believe that wasnt staged, ya know they made ice boxes with hammer arrestors built into them.:thumbsup:


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## GREENPLUM

Protech said:


> Now I suppose you're going to say I staged that huh greenplumb


Why would I??? I want to see the vid of you "simply touching" cpvc and it breaking. :yawn:


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## service guy

Ok, so pex and copper is superior to cpvc, I think we all can agree on that.
I don't see ANY benefit to cpvc at all.


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## GREENPLUM

service guy said:


> Ok, so pex and copper is superior to cpvc, I think we all can agree on that.
> I don't see ANY benefit to cpvc at all.


 
i disagree, speak for yourself, your need to open your mind a lil and see the light.....its bright


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## service guy

GREENPLUM said:


> i disagree, speak for yourself, your need to open your mind a lil and see the light.....its bright


So what benefits does cpvc have over the alternatives I mentioned? I am waiting with an open mind.


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## GREENPLUM

service guy said:


> So what benefits does cpvc have over the alternatives I mentioned? I am waiting with an open mind.


 
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$:icon_cheesygrin:


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## service guy

you mean its cheaper?
:laughing:

That is the ONLY benefit?:laughing:

Thats it?:laughing:

Dude, that is SAD. If you prefer the cheapest product, thats fine. But its still inferior.


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## ToUtahNow

I have seen a ton of horrible CPVC installations and I was also very cynical of using CPVC. To be fair to CPVC, I have also seen horrible PEX, Poly, copper and galvanize installations. Finally I saw a CPVC repipe in Las Vegas installed by a company from Virginia and thought it looked pretty good. All of the lines were square, plumb and properly isolated. I believe the Jury is still out on PEX and CPVC but it appears the weak link is the installers. That's what happens when you have a material that is so easy to install (wrong) even a caveman can do it.

Mark


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## Cal

Well said Mark !! 

Copper is King ,, no doubt but the economy doesn't allow it as much .

Pex ,,, i hear good things but i have to believe the words " Tubing " & " Crimp " are still kill words for lots of folks .

Seeing cpvc EVERYWHERE around here ,,,,,, we'll see .

My hope is that the plastics and the tubing prove to be great . But for all of us who have been around a while ,,, we know that things wear out !

.02


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## ChrisConnor

Why not just install a valve box in the wall instead of all those other connections on the outside of the wall?








This was a response to the cpvc repair pics .


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## service guy

ToUtahNow said:


> I have seen a ton of horrible CPVC installations and I was also very cynical of using CPVC. To be fair to CPVC, I have also seen horrible PEX, Poly, copper and galvanize installations. Finally I saw a CPVC repipe in Las Vegas installed by a company from Virginia and thought it looked pretty good. All of the lines were square, plumb and properly isolated. I believe the Jury is still out on PEX and CPVC but it appears the weak link is the installers. That's what happens when you have a material that is so easy to install (wrong) even a caveman can do it.
> 
> Mark


I did a search but can't find it right now. Someone posted a photo of an IMMACULATE cpvc rough-in. I was amazed at how professional it looked, andI said do. I still won't use it, I give a 10 year warranty on my repipes in pex or copper. I wouldn't feel as confident using cpvc personally.


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## GREENPLUM

service guy said:


> you mean its cheaper? i prefer inexpensive
> :laughing:
> 
> That is the ONLY benefit :laughing: cpvc *doenst have any law suits ( that I know about ) does pex?:laughing:*
> 
> Thats it?:laughing: Well water wont eat it
> 
> Dude, that is SAD. If you prefer the cheapest product, thats fine. But its still inferior.


 
could you do the job below in pex???:no:


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## GREENPLUM

service guy said:


> I did a search but can't find it right now. Someone posted a photo of an IMMACULATE cpvc rough-in. I was amazed at how professional it looked, andI said do. I still won't use it, I give a 10 year warranty on my repipes in pex or copper. I wouldn't feel as confident using cpvc personally.


there was a company around here that sold 10 year warranty's, he made a killin then closed the doors, so much for the warranty


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## service guy

GREENPLUM said:


> could you do the job below in pex???:no:


Is that cpvc? Impressive looking job.


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## GREENPLUM

yes its CPVC , why else would i put it up there:laughing:


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## GREENPLUM

hungry for more


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## service guy

I didn't know cpvc was used in industrial applications! You may win me over yet, greenplum. I am more openminded than I seem.


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## GREENPLUM

that pipe in the picts is "corzan" a spec type of cpvc, there is many others, ex: "blazemaster" "ChemDrain" ... now go do your homework!


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## Protech

I already responded to that one. Go back and read.



ChrisConnor said:


> Why not just install a valve box in the wall instead of all those other connections on the outside of the wall?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was a response to the cpvc repair pics .


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## ChrisConnor

Oh, well, that 'splains it.


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## Bonafide

GREENPLUM said:


> Because of your ignorance (cutting old CPVC with ratchet cutter) the customer had to flip a major bill. I would have saved the customer money because I wouldn hafta bust up there slab like you did. Why didnt YOU sue the CPVC source? It failed premature right? You gotta a case right? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


Neva heard this before, whats the difference in using the ratchet cutter opposed to using a saw or sawzall? Thanx


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## GREENPLUM

Bonafide said:


> Neva heard this before, whats the difference in using the ratchet cutter opposed to using a saw or sawzall? Thanx


 
good question, but not one I am going to answer at this time.:thumbsup:


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## Protech

When it gets old and brittle the ratchet cutter will just cause it to shatter. When the pipe is in that condition and restrained at both ends it can shatter spectacularly as the pipe ends can not extend out when the cutter puts compressive forces along the pipes axis.

Think of taking a glass rod and putting it in a hydraulic press end to end. Kinda like that.


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## satelliteplumah

*pex is for residential*



GREENPLUM said:


> that pipe in the picts is "corzan" a spec type of cpvc, there is many others, ex: "blazemaster" "ChemDrain" ... now go do your homework!


 what an example that is, must be some maintenance plumber or comm. installer reading blueprints and doin what the boss wants! in the real world cpvc is garbage and always has been, fix a hot water line and wait 6 hours ( manufacturers spec) to test? ya lady ill be back at 3 to turn that on...till then you dont have water,:laughing::laughing: pex is approved and close to the same money, someday you may see the light. by the way I beleive in ma. you must come up 24" off w/h with copper but that is because the hot flu,and its code even on elec.


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## Protech

That is a good application for cpvc. In that environment you have engineers that keep a close watch on the system and make sure that no contaminants are introduced.

A house is a totally different ball game though.



GREENPLUM said:


> hungry for more


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## Tommy plumber

ToUtahNow said:


> Just as an FYI, when you do work like repipes or whatever your warranty may be different than what the State allows the property owner to seek legal remedy. Most areas out West give the homeowner 10-years to come after the contractor. I believe Georgia gives them 4-years.
> 
> Mark


 My friend who is a building contractor was telling me something about "latent defect". I can't remember nor do I really know the details, but he said that items that fail are covered under the idea of latent defect. I think he said it's 10 years from when a HO should've discovered problem. So I'm guessing that the 10 year period may not start to run in the eyes of the law right away. CPVC, pex etc. could come back to bite alot of us years down the road.


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## Protech

Both cpvc and pex have been used extensively in my area since the mid 90s. Roughly 15 years in and I can tell you the ratio of cpvc repairs to pex repairs is something like 30:1

Food for thought.



Tommy plumber said:


> My friend who is a building contractor was telling me something about "latent defect". I can't remember nor do I really know the details, but he said that items that fail are covered under the idea of latent defect. I think he said it's 10 years from when a HO should've discovered problem. So I'm guessing that the 10 year period may not start to run in the eyes of the law right away. CPVC, pex etc. could come back to bite alot of us years down the road.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER

You guys are diggin kinda deep with this one huh?


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## stillaround

I posted the Cresline warranty a while back......you gotta love it when the company says after they evaluate the piece of pipe or fitting..all you get is a piece of pipe and fitting and no consequential damages expressed or implied... and they say whatsoever......;easy interpretation is ..we dont warranty it..screw you..go away.


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## TheMaster

I found more leaking durapex .........if you guys find any of that pipe go ahead and tell the homeowner they need a repipe. I_ts crappy pex plain and simple._


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## Protech

How did it fail? Pics?



TheMaster said:


> I found more leaking durapex .........if you guys find any of that pipe go ahead and tell the homeowner they need a repipe. I_ts crappy pex plain and simple._


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## TheMaster

Protech said:


> How did it fail? Pics?


Micro split running with the pipe about 3/8" long and it was misting water. No pics but i still have the section of pipe in my van.....you want it?


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## Protech

Chlorine damage



TheMaster said:


> Micro split running with the pipe about 3/8" long and it was misting water. No pics but i still have the section of pipe in my van.....you want it?


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## TheMaster

Protech said:


> Chlorine damage


If its chlorine damage then its exclusive to durapex here...its the only brand i've found with splits unless they didn't have thermal expansion control. The durapex was and has been in an open system.


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## Protech

That's correct. The problem with durapex is that they put very little UV protection or anti-oxidants in the pex. There where several problems here in central Florida due to our high chlorine content. UV exposure breaks down the anti-oxidants too. Very short exposures may reduce the anti oxidants even though the pipe does not visually look different.

Uponor is some what similar in this way. The Engle process they use to make the type A pex limits the amount of inhibitors they can put into the mix. As a result the pipe is far more sensitive to UV/chlorine than most other types of pex out there. Thats not to say they can't last. They just can't have ANY exposure to UV and can only be installed on low chlorine water supplies (kinda like polybutylene).



TheMaster said:


> If its chlorine damage then its exclusive to durapex here...its the only brand i've found with splits unless they didn't have thermal expansion control. The durapex was and has been in an open system.


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## RW Plumbing

I have personally had 10 or so calls to replace brittle CPVC. I only use PEX myself as I haven't had a single issue with it in over 2 years. As far as cheaper goes, Pex is alot faster to install(at least for me) so that makes PEX cheaper. 

Also CPVC can have micro cracks in it from bouncing around in the truck or whatever, and you don't know until you turn water on. Suprise instant sprinkler system.


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## Will

CPVC is king in apartments where I've done most of my plumbing. I don't see much wrong with it when its installed right. I've worked for a company that has done miles of CPVC piping in apartments, and it has held up great. I do remember having to cut out a section of the CPVC in a apartment that had been in service a year or so. The fittings was leaking. I'm going to blame the leak on a poor glue joint. I wouldn't say CPVC sucks, just because 1 in a few thousand glue joints leaked. I'd blame that more on installer error. You have to use brass males or females with CPVC inserts and never use compression stops on CPVC. Make sure you strap it down good and you shouldn't have a problem with CPVC. At least I haven't. 

Now PEX is the piping that is going in houes. I personally hate the stuff. Not because I think it is a poor product, it seems to hold up well. Its just when I install it it makes me like a sparky more than a plumber. And I think it looks like crap when installed. I've only used Wirsbo(very good product imo) and Vanguard. I prefer Wirsbo. I've seen and heard that Vanguard has a problem with the plastic nuts leaking on the Manabloc. I'm pretty sure they have fixed that problem, not sure cause I haven't installed a vanguard house in 2 years now. Wirsbos all I use. Even then I get more leaks on Wirsbo to Vanguard than I do CPVC. I like PEX when there is a chance it might freeze and I always install it as a water service now. Better than PVC cause its not rigid and moves with the soil. 

Anyway if I had my choice I will always pick copper in the slab. I can install copper on my ruff in, then on top out I can run water faster with copper than I can with PEX.


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## Allen02

GREENPLUM said:


> if you think cpvc is bad, check out the do's and dont's using pex.:thumbsup:




CPVC can be used as the water heater discharge lines as well. It is approved for this application by all major plumbing codes, including the Standard Plumbing Code..


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## Protech

See no harm in that as it's a low/non-pressure application. I use it for pan drains too.



Allen02 said:


> CPVC can be used as the water heater discharge lines as well. It is approved for this application by all major plumbing codes, including the Standard Plumbing Code..


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## easttexasplumb

I like to use copper couplings to transition from copper to copper on my water heaters. I bought a torch, and just hate to let it go to waste.


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## GREENPLUM

do a google search,

" Lawsuits CPVC "

then do 

" Lawsuits PEX "


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## GREENPLUM

look at the pics Protec posted , some hack plumbing co that doesnt use iceboxes, instead they use 3/8 stops outside the wall with a 3/8x1/4 compression coupling. 

Ya a real Pro installed that ... or was it juan


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## GREENPLUM

GREENPLUM said:


> look at the pics Protec posted , some hack plumbing co that doesnt use iceboxes, instead they use 3/8 stops outside the wall with a 3/8x1/4 compression coupling.
> 
> Ya a real Pro installed that ... or was it juan


a Pro is gonna have a icebox or a 1/4" stop. :thumbsup:


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## Protech

Ya, but the question is, would pex have failed in the same situation? :no:

Copper? :no:

Why is it that it's always cpvc pipe when I go to a flooded house call? I can count on one hand the number of pex failures I'v gone out to in the same service area in the past decade. CPVC failures have to number something like 50 to 100 min that same time frame. Heck, I've got a folder full of failure photos and I only have time to stop and take pictures 1/2 of the time. I didn't even start taking photos until a few years ago. If I have taken photos of every single cpvc failure I've been out to since I started plumbing I could have published a THICK fully illustrated book on the subject. 

One of my competitors just switched from cpvc to pex. Wanna know why? It's because they were sick of losing every single repipe job to me because I have a folder of failure photos I show every customer. They also had several failures and had GL insurance claims filed. We are now going around and repiping homes that were built less than 10 years ago in cpvc with new pex pipe. And many of these houses were flow guard gold brand so don't give me any crap about it being an off brand or something.

But no, cpvc is good stuff.  



GREENPLUM said:


> a Pro is gonna have a icebox or a 1/4" stop. :thumbsup:


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## loren

*State certified plumber*



Flyin Brian said:


> on c.p.v.c. flow guard gold pipe can you run it right off the nipples of a water heater or do you have to bring copper up then adapt back to c.p.v.c.?


 
ONLY ON ELECTRIC HEATERS, DO YOUR SELF A FAVOR AND
SPEN THE EXTRA MONEY ON BRASSXCPVC ADAPTERS:thumbup:


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## stillaround

Warranty for cpvc


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## Bayside500

loren said:


> ONLY ON ELECTRIC HEATERS, DO YOUR SELF A FAVOR AND
> SPEN THE EXTRA MONEY ON BRASSXCPVC ADAPTERS:thumbup:


ya because they never leak.........


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## Protech

Ya, those never leak.

Look at all of the water damage that this cpvc caused that IS NOT COVERED under the manufacturer’s warranty!

Yep, that's what I want to use in my home. 

This failure was in a home less than 10 years old. The pipe dope was not touching the pipe and it is rectorseal which is a cpvc approved product so don't think you can blame the pipe dope. 




Bayside500 said:


> ya because they never leak.........


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## Widdershins

Protech said:


> This failure was in a home less than 10 years old. The pipe dope was not touching the pipe and it is rectorseal which is a cpvc approved product so don't think you can blame the pipe dope.


 The only times I will use CPVC is when running condensate lines, TPR relief lines, trap primer drains, bin drains or RPBP drain lines.

I would never, ever use it in a pressurized situation.


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## Protech

stillaround said:


> Warranty for cpvc


“For as long as the original owner owns the property” 

So right off the bat, if you didn’t build that house your sh!t outta luck.

“Provided the claimed defective pipe or fitting is promptly returned to crestline with transportation prepaid within 30 days of discovery of such defect” 

You pay the bill to transport the fitting and it must be received within 30 days.

“This warranty shall not cover damage to pipe and fittings made of FlowGuard Gold CPVC, caused by improper handling or installation, the use of chemicals or abrasives, the freezing of water in such pipe, compressed air or gas in such pipe, or the misuse, misapplication or improper maintenance or repair of such pipe.” 

Translation: No matter what caused the failure, we will have an excuse to turn your claim down.


“The liability of crestline under this warranty is limited to the cost of such defective pipe and fittings, and in no event shall crestline be liable for any incidental, consequential, direct, indirect, special, punitive or other damages or expenses of any kind or nature whatsoever.”

Translation: If by some chance you are actually able to get through the legal defenses above, all you will get is a new pipe or fitting in the mail. F u c k you, have a nice day.


Makes you all warm and fuzzy inside doesn’t it?


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## ckoch407

That's why I love Zurn and Uponor. They put their money where their mouth is and are the only two brands I know of that cover property damage caused by product failure. Let's see copper do that.


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## U666A

Protech said:


> &#147;For as long as the original owner owns the property&#148;
> 
> So right off the bat, if you didn&#146;t build that house your sh!t outta luck.
> 
> &#147;Provided the claimed defective pipe or fitting is promptly returned to crestline with transportation prepaid within 30 days of discovery of such defect&#148;
> 
> You pay the bill to transport the fitting and it must be received within 30 days.
> 
> &#147;This warranty shall not cover damage to pipe and fittings made of FlowGuard Gold CPVC, caused by improper handling or installation, the use of chemicals or abrasives, the freezing of water in such pipe, compressed air or gas in such pipe, or the misuse, misapplication or improper maintenance or repair of such pipe.&#148;
> 
> Translation: No matter what caused the failure, we will have an excuse to turn your claim down.
> 
> &#147;The liability of crestline under this warranty is limited to the cost of such defective pipe and fittings, and in no event shall crestline be liable for any incidental, consequential, direct, indirect, special, punitive or other damages or expenses of any kind or nature whatsoever.&#148;
> 
> Translation: If by some chance you are actually able to get through the legal defenses above, all you will get is a new pipe or fitting in the mail. F u c k you, have a nice day.
> 
> Makes you all warm and fuzzy inside doesn&#146;t it?


That's incredible! You file a warranty claim because a 2' section of pipe let go or a 90 failed, potentially causing tens of thousands of dollars and they send you the same inferior pipe or fitting only as a replacement?

That's not even horse sheet, that there's bull sheet!


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## Protech

Yet another home flooded due to a cpvc failure. This 3/4" 90 cracked under the slab and leaked out at such a high rate that it actually filled the wall up with sand that was pushed up through a sleeve penetrating the slab.

Home was built by 4-H plumbing and is located in Clermont Florida.
Now, 10 years later it was flooded by this junk material.


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## danfan13

CPVC is no problem on a electric water heater, however on a gas water heater you should keep the plastic at least 6" away from the flue.

Multifamily Plumbing Specialist 

http://www.dpmplum.com


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## plumb nutz

I've only seen cpvc in the ground once up here in VA, but was stressed in the ground as a solid pipe like copper or led would have been run, with no fittings.

Personally I love cpvc, never has a problem with it, though I wouldn't put it in the ground either. Prefer to have lengths of pipe in the ground without joints as much as possible, not really grouping water service in to that, just the distribution lines.....


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## Gplumb64

Hey guys, did an intro but this is my first post. CPVC is pretty good stuff to me, but only under certain conditions. I would think best case scenario would be an install where temperatures were consistent and access was always available. I put it in my own house, including to my water heater, but its an unfinished basement with a sump pit--it was cheap ($150 for the whole job). Also I used the exist galv steel risers. I don't use CPVC on water heater change outs unless I had 4-6 hours to allow proper setting of joints, and then only on electric heaters. Frankly, I wouldn't use anything near a gas heater's water connections but steel, brass, or copper. I have heard in KY you can't attach CPVC to any heater directly, without a foot of copper or metal, but haven't been able to find this in the code, only about using transition CPVC--brass fittings. CPVC will fail under high temps near the rating--worked changing a water heater at a dairy where his heater was set to 180degF, he had holes in his CPVC everywhere. Can't say about PEX--it seems to work great on electric heaters, I wouldn't use it on a gas one.


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