# CPVC failure



## Bayside500

i had to fix this friday, about 4-5 year old CPVC brass MIP adapter, it split where the CPVC is molded over the brass, this is on a diverter valve for a drop in fiberglass tub, it seems to be leaking on the line that comes when they make the fittings.

after i fixed this, there was another one, only that one was a FIP adapter, and it was just barely leaking, but i didn't notice it until later.

man i am starting to wonder about CPVC, i don't think i am going to repipe my own house with it for sure.


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## plumbpro

I have never heard of CPVC lasting more than 5-10 yrs without any issue. Use pex.


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## Redwood

CPVC is the choice of the handyman around here....

In all my years here I can count the number of pro CPVC jobs I've seen on one hand...

Even they failed to impress me....:whistling2:


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## Bayside500

i prefer to use good old copper my self, but i install what i am told to by my boss.

pretty sure we have to use CPVC sometimes because if we don't, someone else will under bid us and we have no work then


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## plumbpro

Bayside500 said:


> i prefer to use good old copper my self, but i install what i am told to by my boss.
> 
> pretty sure we have to use CPVC sometimes because if we don't, someone else will under bid us and we have no work then


That's the reason for pex, as I much prefer copper as well. I have lost slab jobs because I wanted to do them in copper over plastic. I guess I didn't want them that bad.


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## Epox

plumbpro said:


> That's the reason for pex, as I much prefer copper as well. I have lost slab jobs because I wanted to do them in copper over plastic. I guess I didn't want them that bad.


I have learned to quote both ways. Example, I price X for Wirsbo material, X for Pex. You have a shot either way. Just explain that one is more economical ( notice I didn't say "cheaper"). Either one is a good material. Customer has more options to consider. Wirsbo fittings are a good bit higher than pex and is a little more labor intensive.


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## GREENPLUM

Is that a KBI adapter?

Installer error


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## stillaround

Florida new construction and cpvc have been having a torrid love affair......their days of wine and roses are numbered:thumbup:..just has to be timed right with regard to all the houses I did...8 or 9 more years and let it rip.


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## Bayside500

GREENPLUM said:


> Is that a KBI adapter?
> 
> Installer error


not sure on the brand, and why do you say "installer error" ?


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## Protech

You must not get to do much service. I'v prolly seen that happen 20 times in the past couple years. Very common. Tell your new construction buddies I owe them a night out for keeping me working for the next 10 years :thumbup:




Bayside500 said:


> i had to fix this friday, about 4-5 year old CPVC brass MIP adapter, it split where the CPVC is molded over the brass, this is on a diverter valve for a drop in fiberglass tub, it seems to be leaking on the line that comes when they make the fittings.
> 
> after i fixed this, there was another one, only that one was a FIP adapter, and it was just barely leaking, but i didn't notice it until later.
> 
> man i am starting to wonder about CPVC, i don't think i am going to repipe my own house with it for sure.


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## Protech

Wirsobo (now uponor) IS pex. It's just a particular brand of pex.



mpsllc said:


> I have learned to quote both ways. Example, I price X for Wirsbo material, X for Pex. You have a shot either way. Just explain that one is more economical ( notice I didn't say "cheaper"). Either one is a good material. Customer has more options to consider. Wirsbo fittings are a good bit higher than pex and is a little more labor intensive.


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## Protech

Such is life in the new construction sector in Florida. Don't know what to tell ya homey. I don't do new just for that reason.



Bayside500 said:


> i prefer to use good old copper my self, but i install what i am told to by my boss.
> 
> pretty sure we have to use CPVC sometimes because if we don't, someone else will under bid us and we have no work then


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## Protech

Ya, I would like to know what error :whistling2:






















The choice of material was the error.



Bayside500 said:


> not sure on the brand, and why do you say "installer error" ?


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## Tommy plumber

*CPVC Leaks*

ProTech, why does the cpvc leak? I know it's been stated here, I just can't remember the reason. Is it chloramines in the water? Is it a Florida problem only?


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## Protech

Man, that's a whole can of worms right there. Let me look for my files just to make it a bit less laborious. BRB



Tommy plumber said:


> ProTech, why does the cpvc leak? I know it's been stated here, I just can't remember the reason. Is it chloramines in the water? Is it a Florida problem only?


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## DUNBAR PLUMBING

Well the same F-ing retards that recommend PEX are the same F-ing RETARDS that recommended CPVC back in the day. 

And that's why I got a job tomorrow morning.


Customer from San Diego California called, apparently another plumber has me as their overnight 24 hour service plumber :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


and now I'm fixing 3 split lines in a garage ceiling where a repipe (to save money!) has miserably failed. 

Oddly enough, I haven't done any copper splits, yet. They are coming though. The last few CPVC water line breaks always reveal a longways split, from fitting to fitting and you're crazy to not think it's not stress cracked.

I already told the customer to have someone there to insulate and prevent it from happening again. 

I'm the out of network plumber and I have to call the 2/10 warranty company, I'm going to be a real dick and tell them, "I don't care what you say, I"m getting paid while you're talking." and leave it to be.


If it was lazy man's pipe (PEX) the **** will still freeze and now what are you going to do... tear the ceiling out to heat it up to thaw it? Gotta find it first and that's a huge guessing game with that piping. "Oh just heat up every room in the house you 'think' the piping is frozen, it won't break but it won't tell ya where it's at either.

And if it froze once, guess what; you have to open the walls up to insulate it so it doesn't happen again... so what's the gain? *NONE.*


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## Protech

﻿This guy is probably the go to guy when it comes to CPVC failure analysis:

﻿Why Do CPVC/PVC Pipes Fail? 

By Dr. Duane Priddy, Plastic Failure Labs, Midland, MI 877-668-4345



Most of the Main Causes of CPVCIPVC Pipe Failure Listed Below are Discussed in this Article 

I. Contamination 
A. Internal 

1. Use of incompatible antifreeze 

2. Contaminants from metal water supply piping; e.g., antimicrobial linings, corrosion inhibitors, cutting oils, phthalate plasticizers from pump seals/gaskets 

B. External 

1. Fire Caulk 

2. Use of improper grommet to seal pipe against hole in concrete 

3. Contact with electrical wires 

4. Exposure to solder flux 

﻿II. Improper System Engineering/Installation 

A. Inadequate provision for linear thermal expansion 

B. Excess use of Cement 

C. Insufficient amount of Cement 

D. Wrong Clamps used or Clamps too tight 

E. Wrong fire caulk used , 

F. Contact of outside of pipe with incompatible material (e.g., solder flux) 

﻿III. Manufacturing defects 

A. Dirty extrusion die 

B. Incomplete resin consolidation 

C. High stresses in pipe wall due to rapid cooling 

﻿IV. Resin Defects 

A. Resin MW too low 

B. Filler/pigment not well distributed 

C. Improper Operation and Maintenance 

﻿V. Improper Operation 

A. Exposure to freezing temperatures without freeze protection 

B. Over-pressurization 

C. Pulsating water pressure 

D. Use of incompatible materials around pipes 

﻿IV. Abuse by Distributor 

A. Store in sun 

B. Damage during transport


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## Protech

And that is just scratching the surface.


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## Proud Plumber

To answer the question yes it is a KBI adapter and KBI are nothing more than import crap. I was once an advocate for CPVC. I have now seen the light. Dried up time bomb.


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## RW Plumbing

CPVC is complete garbage. There can be hairline cracks along the length of pipes from the wholesale house even if you are real careful with it, you could turn the water on and have a sprinkler system. PEX is better in pretty much every way. I HATE even connecting to CPVC.


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## RW Plumbing

DUNBAR PLUMBING said:


> Well the same F-ing retards that recommend PEX are the same F-ing RETARDS that recommended CPVC back in the day.
> 
> And that's why I got a job tomorrow morning.
> 
> 
> Customer from San Diego California called, apparently another plumber has me as their overnight 24 hour service plumber :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
> 
> 
> and now I'm fixing 3 split lines in a garage ceiling where a repipe (to save money!) has miserably failed.
> 
> Oddly enough, I haven't done any copper splits, yet. They are coming though. The last few CPVC water line breaks always reveal a longways split, from fitting to fitting and you're crazy to not think it's not stress cracked.
> 
> I already told the customer to have someone there to insulate and prevent it from happening again.
> 
> I'm the out of network plumber and I have to call the 2/10 warranty company, I'm going to be a real dick and tell them, "I don't care what you say, I"m getting paid while you're talking." and leave it to be.
> 
> 
> If it was lazy man's pipe (PEX) the **** will still freeze and now what are you going to do... tear the ceiling out to heat it up to thaw it? Gotta find it first and that's a huge guessing game with that piping. "Oh just heat up every room in the house you 'think' the piping is frozen, it won't break but it won't tell ya where it's at either.
> 
> And if it froze once, guess what; you have to open the walls up to insulate it so it doesn't happen again... so what's the gain? *NONE.*


 
What's wrong with a pipe that's easier to install? I bet your still caulking lead joints together in cast iron right? It's called keeping up with the times. PEX has benefits over copper just as copper over PEX. It isn't garbage like CPVC. I hate when an old timer slams something just because it hasn't been around a while. I'm sure with every modern innovation there were people saying how crappy it was. When copper was being installed the galvanized crew i'm sure complained.

Hell when we went to metal from wood lines i'm sure there were installers of wood plumbing pipe crying about " all the craftsmanship being gone" or metal pipe being "lazy man's pipe". All that nonsense is just that, nonsense. Either you keep up with the times or they will pass you by. There were people who didn't want to give up their slide rule for a calculator, what do you think happened to them?

As far as PEX freezing and not braking, your right what a bunch of GARBAGE!!! How dare a pipe not cause water damage when it freezes. The exhaulted copper, would just split in 20 different spots and pour water everywhere. I would rather have the frozen chunk of ice instead of the DIY sprinkler. Also you wouldn't have to open NEARLY as much ceiling. A big enough hole for a heat gun to heat the joist space is all that is needed to restore function to the system WITHOUT WATER DAMAGE. I find it interesting you chose an area where PEX is SUPERIOR to all other materials to slam it on. The memory effect gives it a leg up. 

Any pipe not protected from freezing is an incorrect installation. It doesn't matter the material it will cause problems, PEX is better than other materials in that respect though.


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## Will

As much as CPVC gets a bad rap, sometimes I wonder if it is all installation error. I've never installed CPVC since I've gone out on my own, but I used to put in miles of the pipe for my former boss. He did apartments all over the state of Texas, and we would literally install miles of the piping. We never had any major problems. We would get someone shooting a nail in the piping sometimes or a glue joint leak, but I'm talking like one glue leak for maybe every 2500 joints if even that. I actually got enough faith in the pipe that I re piped one of my rent homes with it. Never had a issue. My boss had been installing CPVC since the mid eighties, and he has never had a issue, never been sued, and is still in business. He's still installing CPVC today. If it was total crap he would be out of business. I don't know why Florida is having such a big problem with it, cause I just don't see it in my neck of the woods.


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## Proud Plumber

Will said:


> As much as CPVC gets a bad rap, sometimes I wonder if it is all installation error. I've never installed CPVC since I've gone out on my own, but I used to put in miles of the pipe for my former boss. He did apartments all over the state of Texas, and we would literally install miles of the piping. We never had any major problems. We would get someone shooting a nail in the piping sometimes or a glue joint leak, but I'm talking like one glue leak for maybe every 2500 joints if even that. I actually got enough faith in the pipe that I re piped one of my rent homes with it. Never had a issue. My boss had been installing CPVC since the mid eighties, and he has never had a issue, never been sued, and is still in business. He's still installing CPVC today. If it was total crap he would be out of business. I don't know why Florida is having such a big problem with it, cause I just don't see it in my neck of the woods.


 
I suspect if you were to go back and look at it know You would be disappointed.
Particilarly if you were to go back and cut into it. You might find a big long crack in the line. The ten year picture is not looking good.


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## ToUtahNow

Will said:


> As much as CPVC gets a bad rap, sometimes I wonder if it is all installation error. I've never installed CPVC since I've gone out on my own, but I used to put in miles of the pipe for my former boss. He did apartments all over the state of Texas, and we would literally install miles of the piping. We never had any major problems. We would get someone shooting a nail in the piping sometimes or a glue joint leak, but I'm talking like one glue leak for maybe every 2500 joints if even that. I actually got enough faith in the pipe that I re piped one of my rent homes with it. Never had a issue. My boss had been installing CPVC since the mid eighties, and he has never had a issue, never been sued, and is still in business. He's still installing CPVC today. If it was total crap he would be out of business. I don't know why Florida is having such a big problem with it, cause I just don't see it in my neck of the woods.


I have seen a lot of problems with CPVC on jobs but they have all been installation related. The problem is CPVC has the most restrictive installation rules out there but is so easy to install wrong anyone can do it.

Mark


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## gitnerdun

Pex is much better than cpvc anyday, that is my opinion. I have been installing it in attics, under concrete, encased in concrete, and pretty much any application possible. No issues for at least 15 yrs. Before that cpvc, I do recall issues there. What is the arguement? Copper in FL does not last, soooooooooooooooo

As for cpvc, It gets brittle and splits or breaks.

I found a deal on flowguard male and female adapters at Barnett. I ordered up some for stock, when they arrived they were the KBI fittings. I called to complain and the answer was that Flowguard owns KBI. I said come get them. There are a lot of brands that are cpvc how can we be sure if they are truly compatible together?

I see a lot of off brands when it comes to brass/cpvc type adapters. The good ones cost more. I think there is a lot of penny pinching out there.

Uponor is Uponor. I haven't seen any knock-offs, have you?


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## Will

I will try to dig up what brand of brass cpvc adapters we used. I don't remember off the top of my head. I know he used Flowguard Gold glue and pipe only, but I don't remember what manufacture it was. Maybe Charlotte. I just put the stuff in, never really look to see what brand it was.


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## GREENPLUM

Will said:


> As much as CPVC gets a bad rap, sometimes I wonder if it is all installation error. I've never installed CPVC since I've gone out on my own, but I used to put in miles of the pipe for my former boss. He did apartments all over the state of Texas, and we would literally install miles of the piping. We never had any major problems. We would get someone shooting a nail in the piping sometimes or a glue joint leak, but I'm talking like one glue leak for maybe every 2500 joints if even that. I actually got enough faith in the pipe that I re piped one of my rent homes with it. Never had a issue. My boss had been installing CPVC since the mid eighties, and he has never had a issue, never been sued, and is still in business. He's still installing CPVC today. If it was total crap he would be out of business. I don't know why Florida is having such a big problem with it, cause I just don't see it in my neck of the woods.


 
The problem in Fl is whats in there water.


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## ToUtahNow

gitnerdun said:


> Pex is much better than cpvc anyday, that is my opinion. I have been installing it in attics, under concrete, encased in concrete, and pretty much any application possible. No issues for at least 15 yrs. Before that cpvc, I do recall issues there. What is the arguement? Copper in FL does not last, soooooooooooooooo
> 
> As for cpvc, It gets brittle and splits or breaks.
> 
> I found a deal on flowguard male and female adapters at Barnett. I ordered up some for stock, when they arrived they were the KBI fittings. I called to complain and the answer was that Flowguard owns KBI. I said come get them. There are a lot of brands that are cpvc how can we be sure if they are truly compatible together?
> 
> I see a lot of off brands when it comes to brass/cpvc type adapters. The good ones cost more. I think there is a lot of penny pinching out there.
> 
> Uponor is Uponor. I haven't seen any knock-offs, have you?


Your supply house is either lying to you or are misinformed. FBC Building Solutions owns FlowGuard and through licensing allows KBI, Charlotte Pipe, Nibco and others to manufacture FlowGuard.

As for Uponor, brands like Kitec and RTI come to mind but I am sure there are others.

Mark


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## gitnerdun

ToUtahNow said:


> As for Uponor, brands like Kitec and RTI come to mind but I am sure there are others.
> 
> Mark


 Isn't Kitec a aluminum pipe sandwiched in pex and involved in a class action suit? I think RTI is no longer made. These are not Uponor "knock-offs", just similar products.


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## ToUtahNow

gitnerdun said:


> Isn't Kitec a aluminum pipe sandwiched in pex and involved in a class action suit? I think RTI is no longer made. These are not Uponor "knock-offs", just similar products.


RTI was manufactured and owned by Uponor but had some problems so they closed them down and Uponor handled all of the warranties. IPEX the mother company of Kitec started out under a material licencing from Uponor. The class action lawsuit had to do with the fitting in the Las Vegas Valley not being compatible with the water. Rehau had the same problem but was limited to around 5,000 homes so they agreed to replace the fittings. Uponor is having the same problem and there is a class action.

Mark


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## gitnerdun

I should clarify the type of Pex I use. I only use the Uponor pex that expands, not the one which utilizes a crimper and crimp rings.


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## ToUtahNow

gitnerdun said:


> I should clarify the type of Pex I use. I only use the Uponor pex that expands, not the one which utilizes a crimper and crimp rings.


The pipe has never really been an issue. The fittings that are failing are the yellow brass fittings. It really didn't matter whether it was expanding or crimp.

Mark


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## Proud Plumber

ToUtahNow said:


> I have seen a lot of problems with CPVC on jobs but they have all been installation related. The problem is CPVC has the most restrictive installation rules out there but is so easy to install wrong anyone can do it.
> 
> Mark


Mark have you dealt with drying issues? Other than the obvious UV exposure. Also have you ever had a case where expansion loops were an issue?


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## ToUtahNow

Proud Plumber said:


> Mark have you dealt with drying issues? Other than the obvious UV exposure. Also have you ever had a case where expansion loops were an issue?


Most of what I have seen was chemical related, improper glue joints or stressed joints. However, we have limited amounts of CPVC because it was not legal out here until recently.

Mark


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## Protech

GREENPLUM said:


> The problem in Fl is whats in there water.


I know of no chemical that is in our water supply that attacks cpvc preferentially.


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## Will

Just had to replace about 20' of CPVC in attack. Wasn't insulated and it burst and flooded into the home owners bedroom. A 3/4 90 was split. I'll get some pics later. Had to of been a hack job, they had the CPVC tied right into the Water heater with 3/4 CPVC males, and had no insulation on the pipes in attic.


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## Will

The home owners where lucky to be home, and they call right when it happened, could have been alot worse. Notice the crack on the 90.


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## Protech

Please tell me you replaced those crusty compression adapters.


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## Will

I replaced them. I took out all the CPVC, including those adapters. What is crazy is those adapters are only 3 years old, wonder what would cause them to corrode up like that is not amount of time?


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## Airgap

Get to replace this little guy tomorrow....I'm so excited..


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## Will

That's a beauty. Is that a shower or tub? CPVC on the drop for a tub spout sounds like a accident waiting to happen.


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## Airgap

Will said:


> That's a beauty. Is that a shower or tub? CPVC on the drop for a tub spout sounds like a accident waiting to happen.


T/S valve. I'll transition and redo it all in copper. It's not leaking, and it works fine, she just wants new trim.


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## Prscptn Plmbng

RW Plumbing said:


> What's wrong with a pipe that's easier to install? I bet your still caulking lead joints together in cast iron right? It's called keeping up with the times. PEX has benefits over copper just as copper over PEX. It isn't garbage like CPVC. I hate when an old timer slams something just because it hasn't been around a while. I'm sure with every modern innovation there were people saying how crappy it was. When copper was being installed the galvanized crew i'm sure complained.
> 
> Hell when we went to metal from wood lines i'm sure there were installers of wood plumbing pipe crying about " all the craftsmanship being gone" or metal pipe being "lazy man's pipe". All that nonsense is just that, nonsense. Either you keep up with the times or they will pass you by. There were people who didn't want to give up their slide rule for a calculator, what do you think happened to them?
> 
> As far as PEX freezing and not braking, your right what a bunch of GARBAGE!!! How dare a pipe not cause water damage when it freezes. The exhaulted copper, would just split in 20 different spots and pour water everywhere. I would rather have the frozen chunk of ice instead of the DIY sprinkler. Also you wouldn't have to open NEARLY as much ceiling. A big enough hole for a heat gun to heat the joist space is all that is needed to restore function to the system WITHOUT WATER DAMAGE. I find it interesting you chose an area where PEX is SUPERIOR to all other materials to slam it on. The memory effect gives it a leg up.
> 
> Any pipe not protected from freezing is an incorrect installation. It doesn't matter the material it will cause problems, PEX is better than other materials in that respect though.


Amen brother...I couldn't of said it better...I am a firm believer in PEX piping and we don't even have a freeze problem out here...I use it cuz it's ten times a better material for the transport of potable water...and ya like everyone else is saying...cpvc is crap...there is a whole list out there of what materials cant touch cpvc...it's to long to list...


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## dustie bootz

I have seen recent failures in both CPVC/FloGaurd Gold and Kitec. Installations done in Flogard at the beginning in 1993 are needing to be replaced in my area. Seems the original glue formula makes the piping brittle and will fail at (not in ) the glue joint. Kitec installed in radiant heating systems is failing due to heat conditions exceeding the manufacturers limits. In excess of 80 degrees and 80 lbs psi.


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## Protech

Are you primarily a service or construction plumber?



Will said:


> As much as CPVC gets a bad rap, sometimes I wonder if it is all installation error. I've never installed CPVC since I've gone out on my own, but I used to put in miles of the pipe for my former boss. He did apartments all over the state of Texas, and we would literally install miles of the piping. We never had any major problems. We would get someone shooting a nail in the piping sometimes or a glue joint leak, but I'm talking like one glue leak for maybe every 2500 joints if even that. I actually got enough faith in the pipe that I re piped one of my rent homes with it. Never had a issue. My boss had been installing CPVC since the mid eighties, and he has never had a issue, never been sued, and is still in business. He's still installing CPVC today. If it was total crap he would be out of business. I don't know why Florida is having such a big problem with it, cause I just don't see it in my neck of the woods.


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## Will

i've done both, more service than new construction. To be honest CPVC was rarely a problem in the area in Texas I've done most of my plumbing at. But it was only installed in apartments. Never in new homes. Up here in Oklahoma I've done one CPVC repair, and I've been here 8 months.


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## Protech

So, who noticed the piece of romex cable and co-ax cable touching that cpvc? :whistling2:










From the manufacturer:
"*Direct contact with flexible wire and cable jacketing* that utilize insulation containing plasticizers is not recommended. Section 334.30 of the National Electric Code (2002 Edition) requires wire and cable to be secured by staples, cable ties, straps, or hangers. Air ducts, pipes and ceiling grid are not acceptable supports for wire and cable."



Will said:


> The home owners where lucky to be home, and they call right when it happened, could have been alot worse. Notice the crack on the 90.


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## GREENPLUM

did you notice the insulation layin in the bottm right , prolly wasnt touching anything


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## Protech

So it failed without even a predetermined reason from the manufacturer. Even better.



GREENPLUM said:


> did you notice the insulation layin in the bottm right , prolly wasnt touching anything


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## GREENPLUM

Water hammer might be the culprit, who knows


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## Pipe Rat

I think the crappy plastic crappity crap was the problem. Copper is your friend. :whistling2:


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## easttexasplumb

We all know copper is best, price has made us all resort to using subpar materials. If you give your customer a price for copper and a price for pex, they will pick the lower priced pex. Don't blame the plumber it is really the consumers fault. If you bid a repipe in copper and I bid the repipe in pex, my price would probably be about a grand less. You could tell the customer the pipe will only last ten years, most would say put it in we will cross that bridge when we get to it.Price is all that matters to most folks these days, they would not know quality if it ran them over, we come accustom to cheap Chinese junk.


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## Pipe Rat

No need to defend that crap. :laughing: Just stirrin' the pot boys. :laughing: I am a little bored today.:laughing: Where's that flippin inspector already, I hate when they're late. :furious: I could be goofing off somewhere by now. :whistling2:


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## Protech

Could be. I've seen several failures due to water hammer on cpvc in the past few months. One was at a medical research facility. Due to all of the damages, an engineer was called in to find the cause of failure. When they did, they added a hammer arrestor. The same line faild again.

They finally had me come in and run an up-sized copper line to make sure it was nipped in the butt.



GREENPLUM said:


> Water hammer might be the culprit, who knows


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## Will

The cold is what burst that pipe. It was in the teens when I did that repair.


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