# What causes this?



## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

What do you think causes this.









BW 80 nat. 1 year old. It is indoors. No chemicals near it. Hasn't been leaking since installed, so wtf

I have often thought these mild steel heat trap nips would do this.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

I would venture to say that electrolysis is attacking the metal due to the CxF adapters being attached directly to the so called "dielectric nipples" that came with the tank, and it is spreading like a disease.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

gitnerdun said:


> I have often thought these mild *steel* heat trap nips would do this.


Ummm....

I think you pretty much answered your own question.


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Around here, we attach the c x f directly to the water heater. Never a problem. 

Looks like they were leaking slightly, maybe just enough to cause it to be damp, and not noticible. Prolly from day 1.


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

RealLivePlumber said:


> Around here, we attach the c x f directly to the water heater. Never a problem.
> 
> .


The cold nipple is also the diptube.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

gitnerdun said:


> The cold nipple is also the diptube.


 So?

It's still dissimilar metals.


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

Widdershins said:


> So?
> 
> It's still dissimilar metals.


Meaning you can't just discard the nipple like I have done in the past.

What I really want to know is wth are the manufacturers thinking by using nipples that rust so quickly. I have noticed that some of these connections look good for years and some don't last past 2/3 years. Heaters connected with plastic piping seem to look better longer.

Any thoughts?


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## HOMER (Jun 5, 2011)

What is the incoming water pressure ?


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

gitnerdun said:


> Meaning you can't just discard the nipple like I have done in the past.
> 
> What I really want to know is wth are the manufacturers thinking by using nipples that rust so quickly. I have noticed that some of these connections look good for years and some don't last past 2/3 years. Heaters connected with plastic piping seem to look better longer.
> 
> Any thoughts?


 Yeah.

It's steel and you mated it with copper.

What the hell did you think was going to happen?


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

HOMER said:


> What is the incoming water pressure ?


 Exactly what difference does that make?


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

Because it maybe a a case of thermal expansion...

I connect straight to the nipple. Wrap the damn thing with teflon tape (and tape only) and don't have that issue.

Some heater mfgs. will void the warranty if the nipples are removed, or, as I've seen before, some genius sweating too close to the nipple


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

plumb nutz said:


> Because it maybe a a case of thermal expansion...
> 
> I connect straight to the nipple. Wrap the damn thing with teflon tape (and tape only) and don't have that issue.
> 
> Some heater mfgs. will void the warranty if the nipples are removed, or, as I've seen before, some genius sweating too close to the nipple


 I understand what you're saying, but at the end of the day, you're still combining two dissimilar metals with a known history of rejecting each other.

The photo above actually shows two separate reactions.

The nipple on the left is a classic example of electrolysis -- The nipple on the right is a classic example of a 'weeping' leak exacerbated by electrolysis.

Don't let the name fool you, there is nothing dielectric about the nipples provided in these tanks -- Steel is steel and copper is copper.


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

I understand.


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

Sorry bout the multiple post

Simply put its hard enough to price competitively against hacks and box installers without putting in crap and flexible supplies. The additional cost of unions are almost cost prohibitive, especially when an expansion tank is now almost automatic


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

plumb nutz said:


> I understand.


 Trust me, I'm not trying to bust your balls.

We're all taught that electrolysis doesn't manifest itself until alkalinity/acid is introduced -- Usually within the interior of the piping.

Look at the meringue around the vent.

The vapor from combustion has a high moisture content and is highly acidic and likely played a part in the premature erosion of the exterior of the dielectric nipples.

If I was the OP, I'd look for blockages or back pitches in the venting.


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

plumb nutz said:


> Sorry bout the multiple post
> 
> Simply put its hard enough to price competitively against hacks and box installers without putting in crap and flexible supplies. The additional cost of unions are almost cost prohibitive, especially when an expansion tank is now almost automatic


 Use a yellow brass coupling (high zinc content) and a copper male adapter.

Or use a dielectric union that assures there is a separation between the two metals.

That's what I do.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> Use a yellow brass coupling (high zinc content) and a copper male adapter.
> 
> Or use a dielectric union that assures there is a separation between the two metals.
> 
> That's what I do.


I've heard it a dozen times WS, even from guys nearly your age, but no one has ever been able to explain to me (with finite precision) why yellow brass does not cause a galvanic reaction...

Little Help???


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

U666A said:


> I've heard it a dozen times WS, even from guys nearly your age, but no one has ever been able to explain to me (with finite precision) why yellow brass does not cause a galvanic reaction...
> 
> Little Help???


 Zinc.

Yellow brass is 33% zinc.

Red brass is 5% zinc.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

To me it looks like both nipples were leaking.... you can see the water stains on the top of the tank.... This thing was leaking from day one..... then finally the rust slowed down the leak


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

It's that foul swill that you guys call water in Florida... :laughing:

Instead of a copper fip adapter use a brass one and you'll be fine....


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## pxt (Jun 28, 2011)

Widdershins said:


> Use a yellow brass coupling (high zinc content) and a copper male adapter.
> 
> Or use a dielectric union that assures there is a separation between the two metals.
> 
> That's what I do.



:thumbsup:


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## stillaround (Mar 11, 2009)

Oh no, not my pure from the North Pole water ....just a little hard is all.

It would have been nice to have unions there, aside from the electrolysis..could always tighten the fitting.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

stillaround said:


> Oh no, not my pure from the North Pole water ....just a little hard is all.
> 
> It would have been nice to have unions there, aside from the electrolysis..could always tighten the fitting.


We got some really hard water in some areas here... when it is from a drilled well....

You would never see this in the first year if there was no leak....

Ussually in the 5 th year and beyond


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

So you all seem to be thinking it was leaking all along. I'm not so sure. There were wrench marks on the adapter. There are a couple vacuums next to the heater, which makes me think someone would have noticed water in pan and running down the side (I know that is assuming alot from people) sooner than this. Both sides leaking? What are the odds.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

gitnerdun said:


> So you all seem to be thinking it was leaking all along. I'm not so sure. There were wrench marks on the adapter. There are a couple vacuums next to the heater, which makes me think someone would have noticed water in pan and running down the side (I know that is assuming alot from people) sooner than this. Both sides leaking? What are the odds.


The odds are about 100%


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

gitnerdun said:


> So you all seem to be thinking it was leaking all along. I'm not so sure. There were wrench marks on the adapter. There are a couple vacuums next to the heater, which makes me think someone would have noticed water in pan and running down the side (I know that is assuming alot from people) sooner than this. Both sides leaking? What are the odds.


 Does it really matter at this point?

If the tank is under a manufacturers warranty, clean it up and hope for the best.

If it's under your installation warranty, buy them a new tank and move on.

Yes, I know how harsh that sounds.

Look, the hazards of commingling dissimilar metals has been known for centuries.

Your Plumbing Code, for all of its deficiencies, does not absolve you of your duties to make this right.

You joined dissimilar metals -- Suck it up and make it right.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> Does it really matter at this point?
> 
> If the tank is under a manufacturers warranty, clean it up and hope for the best.
> 
> ...


Change the tank :blink: is it leaking

change the nipples and the dip tube and its good to go.... plus a little polish.....


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

OldSchool said:


> Change the tank :blink: is it leaking
> 
> change the nipples and the dip tube and its good to go.... plus a little polish.....


 The welded inserts are usually toast by the time this kind of damage manifests itself.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> The welded inserts are usually toast by the time this kind of damage manifests itself.


Its only been 12 months...

Can`t throw out the baby with the bath water.

Take the dam thing apart ... and see 

Do I have to instruct everyone plus my employees what to do :laughing:


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

OldSchool said:


> Its only been 12 months...
> 
> Can`t throw out the baby with the bath water.
> 
> ...


 You are *SO* fired.

Forward me an address and I'll mail your last check to you.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> You are *SO* fired.
> 
> Forward me an address and I'll mail your last check to you.


Forget about mailing .... I want my money now..... you can get your rear end in your truck and drop it off to me...

and I don`t want a check.... I want my money in cash... and not that American cash either... its worth the same as a mexican peso here...

So I want Canadian money.... because it is worth more...

So I will be up till about 11 pm tonight and I expect to see you with my money .. in cash before I go to bed tonight... any later I expect interest on my money... by the way I charge 30%.....

So if you want take your time.

OS


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

Widdershins said:


> Does it really matter at this point?
> 
> If the tank is under a manufacturers warranty, clean it up and hope for the best.
> 
> ...


This job is done, new anode and nipples. As advised by BW. Copper females onto nipples as advised by BW. It is their heater, they warranty it, and they say copper to nipples is fine. Dielectric unions are not used here, I've yet to see one in 27 years.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

gitnerdun said:


> This job is done, new anode and nipples. As advised by BW. Copper females onto nipples as advised by BW. It is their heater, they warranty it, and they say copper to nipples is fine. Dielectric unions are not used here, I've yet to see one in 27 years.


So y'all always transition from steel to copper by way of a copper female adapter?


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

OldSchool said:


> Forget about mailing .... I want my money now..... you can get your rear end in your truck and drop it off to me...
> 
> and I don`t want a check.... I want my money in cash... and not that American cash either... its worth the same as a mexican peso here...
> 
> ...


 Meet me down at Blane.

I'll explain to you why your plan has no merit while I'm picking your pockets.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> So y'all always transition from steel to copper by way of a copper female adapter?


Its not steel.... its galvinized


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> Its not steel.... its galvinized


I'm not talking about the nipples on the water heater.

He said that he has never used a dielectric union in 27 years, I was curious how he transitions from steel to copper if needed.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> I'm not talking about the nipples on the water heater.
> 
> He said that he has never used a dielectric union in 27 years, I was curious how he transitions from steel to copper if needed.


What would be the application....


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> What would be the application....


Chilled or heating water mains ran in weld pipe, transitioning to copper before it went through valve pack and into VAV box


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Then yes.... I though may be you were heading in the gas piping direction


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

Water lines, no gas here. I can't explain why dielectrics are not used here, just that they aren't. There is very little galv in use either. Before the heaters came with the nips it was a male in the heater. The shop I learned the trade from is a second gen plumber and never used dielec unions.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

gitnerdun said:


> Water lines, no gas here. I can't explain why dielectrics are not used here, just that they aren't. There is very little galv in use either. Before the heaters came with the nips it was a male in the heater. The shop I learned the trade from is a second gen plumber and never used dielec unions.


There that is the problem ...

it takes three generations of plumbing before you get it right


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Y'all never have to transition from steel to copper? 

Of course I'm speaking from my point of view, I'm heavy in the mechanical as well as plumbing in the commercial/industrial sector


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

OldSchool said:


> Then yes.... I though may be you were heading in the gas piping direction


Code violation here to run anything but steel pipe or Gas Tite in building for gas.

Poly or weld in ground, if welded it's gotta be wrapped.

The LP companies run copper right off their above ground tanks in case it ever settles. Even then they only run a few feet and then want us to bury the line to the house.


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## gitnerdun (Nov 5, 2008)

Nope, heaters and the occasional pump. I may have to adapt and get the supplyhouse to do the same.


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

gitnerdun said:


> Nope, heaters and the occasional pump. I may have to adapt and get the supplyhouse to do the same.


I put them on anything even remotely resembling steel, just to be on the safe side.

They are specd in all jobs where commingling of material is drawn, of course it's a code violation to not put them in when going from steel to copper, and once again I'm speaking my States code. I'm sure it's different there.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Plumberman said:


> Code violation here to run anything but steel pipe or Gas Tite in building for gas.
> 
> Poly or weld in ground, if welded it's gotta be wrapped.
> 
> The LP companies run copper right off their above ground tanks in case it ever settles. Even then they only run a few feet and then want us to bury the line to the house.


here we are allowed copper on Natural gas lines


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

OldSchool said:


> Its not steel.... its galvinized


 Galvanized is a paper thin coating.

Enough said.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> Galvanized is a paper thin coating.
> 
> Enough said.


Hence the term "hot DIPPED"...


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

U666A said:


> Hence the term "hot DIPPED"...


 Exactly.

Essentially, the hot dipping process protects the piping and the threads during transit.

Run a die down it or put a wrench to it and the coating flakes right off.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Essentially, the hot dipping process protects the piping and the threads during transit.
> 
> Run a die down it or put a wrench to it and the coating flakes right off.


Big difference between Galvinized pipe and steel...

If you dont believe that.... try it and you will see for yourself...

the oxygen in the water would attack the steel pipe right away.... 

On another note ... the threads are on the outside of the pipe... not the inside...where the water is...

If there is a perfect seal there should be no problem


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

OldSchool said:


> Big difference between Galvinized pipe and steel...
> 
> If you dont believe that.... try it and you will see for yourself...
> 
> ...


 The seal is broken the moment you cut and thread the pipe.

This is first year Apprenti stuff, OS.


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## OldSchool (Jan 30, 2010)

Widdershins said:


> The seal is broken the moment you cut and thread the pipe.
> 
> This is first year Apprenti stuff, OS.


Come on Wid... Really :laughing:

the water runs inside the pipe ... the threads are on the out side of the pipe....

So you are telling me.... that all the galvinized water line ... in all the 100 year old homes.... rotted out in one year :blink:

I don't think so....

We still have buildings to this day with Galvinized waterlines up here and I am sure there is a lot more where you are from...


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## revenge (Jun 30, 2011)

The nippls on the heater have a blue plastic coating inside wouldn't that protect it from electrolysis maybe there could. Be a leak with the flashing on roof or cap


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

There are 2 procedures to galvanize metal. 

Hot dipped, and electroplated. 

I believe that the galvanized coating is designed to be self curing. If it is compromised, something happens where it will heal itself. 

I can tell you its a nasty mess to weld that stuff.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

RealLivePlumber said:


> There are 2 procedures to galvanize metal.
> 
> Hot dipped, and electroplated.
> 
> ...


That's what fitters are for....Grind that crap off of there...


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