# Unclogged or its free?



## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

I've been seeing more and more websites and advertisements stating that if we can't unclog your drain there's no charge. 
I don't get that thinking. I mean it's your drain, your collapsed line, your roots, your house, your problem, not mine.
You go out there spend whatever time trying to clear it but can't and may even suggest other methods to clear it and they decline for whatever reason; you agree to walk away with nothing? If I spend 30 minutes to an hour trying to clear your drain but it's just not going to happen due to the above problems, I'm getting paid the full amount for the attempt. I know there are some of you on here that currently do this, can you explain the logic behind it?

Example from a huge plumbing company out here.
The $99 Clog and Drain Cleaning
If we can’t clear your Clog or Back-up, we will not charge you. 100% Satisfaction Guaranteed! If you are not completely satisfied with our installation or service repair, we will do the job again to … [LEARN MORE]


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sierra2000 said:


> I've been seeing more and more websites and advertisements stating that if we can't unclog your drain there's no charge.
> I don't get that thinking. I mean it's your drain, your collapsed line, your roots, your house, your problem, not mine.
> You go out there spend whatever time trying to clear it but can't and may even suggest other methods to clear it and they decline for whatever reason; you agree to walk away with nothing? If I spend 30 minutes to an hour trying to clear your drain but it's just not going to happen due to the above problems, I'm getting paid the full amount for the attempt. I know there are some of you on here that currently do this, can you explain the logic behind it?
> 
> ...


Let's look at the "If we don't clear it, the job is free!", the "$99 Drain Cleaning", and the "Guaranteed Work" separately...

*1. "If we don't clear it, the job is free!"* Yep, it's real, I'm good at what I do and so are the guys I work with! If we can't get that line open and charge there probably isn't anyone that will. I get a lot of calls where multiple other companies have given up, running off with their tail tucked in between their hind legs.

The difference is that I'm going to sell the customer a solution to their collapsed line, and I'm not going to let $400 for an hour of unsuccessful snaking come between me and selling a $10K+ line replacement...

If it doesn't work call it TOFTT, but most of the time it does work...
Do you really think a line replacement sale would be easier if you made the customer pay for an unsuccessful snaking first?:laughing: 

*2. "$99 Drain Cleaning"* Yea that's the advertising pitch! We're cheaper than everybody... Call Us! How would you like to audit their books and see how many tickets actually come in at $99? It's unsustainable, but it is a foot in the door and the upsell is coming! Over at DCF a picture of a $49.95 any drain invoice was posted that went for over $700... Yea they have a list of exclusions that are a mile long.

*3. "Guaranteed Work"* You don't guarantee your work? What are you afraid of? The policy at the company I work for is Drain Lines: 6 months residential / 30 days commercial, & Toilet Auger: 1 week residential / 1 day commercial. Truth be told I have less than a 1% callback rate, which I have no problem with...


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## retired rooter (Dec 31, 2008)

If we don't open your line its free?? If your line needs dug up then we do the digging or you pay for our time .


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

If I can't get it open then a backhoe is the only other option.


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## plungerboy (Oct 17, 2013)

Lots of fine print. This what I have seen in NE Ohio. 









From what I have been told. These guys use a snake that is way to small for main lines. 1/4 cable. Then they tell the customer yeah this snake can't get it Then they tell them about the sewer jet and that's the up sell.


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

It's a foot in door tactic. Don't worry about it. Every year two or 3 new 99 dollar a drain or free camera inspection guys pop up around here. They are good for a few screw up calls and then are gone the year after.


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## Shoot'N'Plumber (Apr 27, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Let's look at the "If we don't clear it, the job is free!", the "$99 Drain Cleaning", and the "Guaranteed Work" separately...
> 
> *1. "If we don't clear it, the job is free!"* Yep, it's real, I'm good at what I do and so are the guys I work with! If we can't get that line open and charge there probably isn't anyone that will. I get a lot of calls where multiple other companies have given up, running off with their tail tucked in between their hind legs.
> 
> ...


Nice breakdown redwood. Especially #2, in my area the one local $49 any drain is actually $49 for labor and depending on which piece of equipment is needed there is a specific charge. So a main line blockage with proper access is $49 labor + $149 for use of perhaps a spartan 300 or something machine= $198.00. Not horrible but not $49 either


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

All my time is billable. If I can't clear your stoppage, it's time to dig. I have fair prices and good, honest service. I'm only getting busier so I must be doing something right. If a customer wants to go with a "gimmick" type of company, no problem. If you want honest service at fair prices, then give me a call. But, I charge for everything (unless it's covered by a guarantee).


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Guys are also giving camera inspections away when it's not necessary. I get calls for a trenchless estimate and I tell them it's $$$ for a sewer inspection. "Oh, the other companies did it for free". After I explain why I'm not doing it for free, I land about 50% of them. I may be the only one in my area that is actually still getting paid to do a sewer inspection for Trenchless estimates.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

The way I figure it, if I go out to your house to do a sewer inspection and after inspecting it, I'm honest with you and tell you your line doesn't need a sewer replacement, (which I do quite often) I'm supposed to get "oh thank you" and walk away with nothing?


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

sierra2000 said:


> The way I figure it, if I go out to your house to do a sewer inspection and after inspecting it, I'm honest with you and tell you your line doesn't need a sewer replacement, (which I do quite often) I'm supposed to get "oh thank you" and walk away with nothing?


I spent a ton of money on my camera set up. Any time it goes into a line, I'm getting paid.


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## jnohs (Jan 27, 2012)

I explain to people that if they agree to my terms and all possible worst case scenario to fix the problem. Down to replacing the pipe. If at any time they want me to stop working on the problem then they owe me my fee for services rendered up to that point. 
I right up a ticket with upfront pricing with numbered steps and most contingencies. plus a possible additional work clause which is an additional step with and asterisk. That states
"If any additional steps are needed to fix the current problem and if any parts break due to old, worn, or corroded parts it may be a charge in addition to the quoted price."
Pretty much this puts me in the clear. I now know that I have the green light to fix the problem. I do say that if I cant fix the clog it is free. But as a result of them agreeing to my terms, I know that if they tell me to stop then they owe me for my work, and on the flip side I know that if it snowballs into a bigger job that it will get fixed and i get paid or they tell me to stop and I get paid.

Technically if i cant fix it then it is free but that has never happened. An example is one time the sewer main was just obstructed and I could not break through i explained that we needed to get the camera going, it is an additional $289 and we can have it here in 2 hours. She did not agree, but knew she was breaking my agreement and still had to pay. There are certain people that this approach dosnt work with but ironically those are the same people that wont sign in the first place. So it weeds out problem customers. At least that is what I think and how I do it.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

My camera is free for the most part, unless we are doing an inspection for a contractor with no prospect of a sale...

Other than that scenario the Camera is a commission paid sales rep...

And oh yea he sells like crazy...:thumbup:


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Redwood said:


> My camera is free for the most part, unless we are doing an inspection for a contractor with no prospect of a sale...
> 
> Other than that scenario the Camera is a commission paid sales rep...
> 
> And oh yea he sells like crazy...:thumbup:


I love opportunities to offer "free" video inspections. :yes:


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

plbgbiz said:


> I love opportunities to offer "free" video inspections. :yes:


Free as in you go out on a call to give a bid for sewer replacement and have to use your camera? During a main line cleaning I can understand, but even then it's built into my price.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

Our company offers the demoralising $49 drain special. Yes, it is a total of $49 for cleaning the drain. The only stipulation is that it has to be thru an outside approved C/O which is pretty common here. Our normal rate is $216 which covers an hour of machine usage and a 90 day warranty. When they started the $49 offer I took the liberty of changing the description of the service to 30 minutes of machine usage and a 30 day warranty. My manager said that was fine with him being he hates it, too. 

In my opinion you can't offer the same value for what I consider to be a loss leader. I got into a long ridiculous argument with our office's general manager over this Wal-Mart style of generating business. I won't bore y'all with the details but suffice it to say, the special remains. 

I hate the offer due to the type of customer that you typically get. I have sold a few sewer lines with it but in general I feel it devalues the work and the worker and I lose more money than I make with it. Most other companies here with the exception of one charge full price for clearing drains. And guess what, they are still in business and doing well!!

It also comes off as bait-and-switch when the CSR, who answers the calls, tell the customer that we'll clear any drain for $49 no matter what and then the dispatcher informs them that it only covers outside C/Os. This happens because the CSRs are judged on how many calls they book so it benefits them to say whatever it takes to make the potential customer happy. The CSR will be fired of their numbers don't stay high. All this is a terrible way to run a company, in my opinion, but it works. 

We don't make money in the long run based on how many calls we run where the customer cancels when we say we won't clear an island sink or tub drain for $49 or for the ones where we do collect only $49. According to the GM, the company only looks at how many new customers we now have that may use all of the company's services, i.e. A/C, heating, appliance and electrical and according to him, it works well. If they look at the losses from sending a very expensive and loaded box truck with a fully licensed and insured employee out to clear a line for only $49 combined with the occasional up sell, I know they are losing money. I have run 6-$49 drain calls in a day before. Yup, $300 for a days work and no upsells. 

They pay us a whopping $20 from that $49 to make it not so bad for us. We still despise it. It is a continual bone of contention. It was only done to compete with another company who, here's the important word, OCCASIONALLY offers a $69 drain special. We stupidly made it a permanent offer with $49. 

All that said, I will run my camera every damn time for free and the odds are in my favor to up sell a jetting service or a sewer repair or replacement. Friday, in fact, I went to a clogged main line. The customer had us clear the kitchen and washer drain 2 days before under the $49 drain special. I thought she may try and claim that we caused her main line to clog so I said I will run the big sewer machine down for free under the warranty assuming it would be quick. She did say she was willing to pay but I told her don't worry about it. 

She had an outside cleanout and it took a little bit but I got it cleared. I told her I would run a camera to see what caused the clog. She never did try to claim we caused the main line clog. What I found was 2 broken 45°s right at the city tap a d a crushed section of SDR pipe. She said just fix it. We came out yesterday and dug up the line and made the repair for $2000. The rest of her line is in great shape and I gave her a one year warranty against clogs and on the repair. This is by far the exception to how the $49 drain calls go. I still hate them but it worked that time. 

The only time I charge for running a camera is if they want a copy of the video and the line to be located and marked. Then its an additional $385 that I will credit towards the job if we do the repair or replacement. Other than that, I run the camera primarily for my benefit so that I know if I cleared it properly and to see if I can offer a warranty. I always invite the customer to watch while I run it.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

sierra2000 said:


> Free as in you go out on a call to give a bid for sewer replacement and have to use your camera? During a main line cleaning I can understand, but even then it's built into my price.


During a drain call.


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

We are a trenchless replacement company. We very rarely drain clean and when a customer calls us we are usually the second or third estimate. Most of our customers call us after there draining and the big companies have told them there line is totally collapsed!. Need to fix it today! Business practice would tell you that first in the door gets the sale. I disagree. People our more educated then ever and less and less fall for the tactic. I camera 5-7 jobs any given day.absolutely free! No obligation, no stories, no bs. I would say 60 percent turn into a sale. Others turn Into a marketing machine because were honest. I have saved old ladies thousands of dollars from the predators. I sleep at. Night and we let the people sell for us. Companies throw thousands at advertising every month and we have a 10, 000 dollar camera used over 4 years daily costs us 200 bucks a month. Pretty cheap marketing and piece of mind your selling what they need.


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

bulldozer said:


> We are a trenchless replacement company. We very rarely drain clean and when a customer calls us we are usually the second or third estimate. Most of our customers call us after there draining and the big companies have told them there line is totally collapsed!. Need to fix it today! Business practice would tell you that first in the door gets the sale. I disagree. People our more educated then ever and less and less fall for the tactic. I camera 5-7 jobs any given day.absolutely free! No obligation, no stories, no bs. I would say 60 percent turn into a sale. Others turn Into a marketing machine because were honest. I have saved old ladies thousands of dollars from the predators. I sleep at. Night and we let the people sell for us. Companies throw thousands at advertising every month and we have a 10, 000 dollar camera used over 4 years daily costs us 200 bucks a month. Pretty cheap marketing and piece of mind your selling what they need.


This is about where we are now, I get called after the first guys threw the huge bill or it needs it done today speech, try to be the middle of the pack on bids because i know what the heavy hitters charge and the cheap guys. camera is a tool that is almost expected like a pipe wrench to have nowdays. The cameras pay for themselves very quickly.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sierra2000 said:


> Free as in you go out on a call to give a bid for sewer replacement and have to use your camera? During a main line cleaning I can understand, but even then it's built into my price.


Yes! Free!

I'm not there to mark it for a dig or, even say how deep it is...

But, I show what is wrong and I do give a bid...

Free Camera Inspections get my camera in the pipe, and when the camera goes in the pipe he's selling!

When our guys without a camera get a callback on a drain cleaning job or, have any reason to suspect there is a problem with the pipe we want that camera in the pipe, and it is free....

There is a reason for that...:yes:

Line repairs & replacements, pipe bursting, and pipe relining are all products we sell and we like selling them.


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

I think we are in a new economy with our customers. Back in the day the bigger the phone book add the bigger the customer base. I truly believe the internet has leveled the playing field. Bigger guys and small guys must compete the same. People go on youtube and other sites to educate themselves before they call. They are about gimmicked out. Heres an observation I have made on many of my sales calls. Your in the basement. Camering the sewer and the owner is watching the monitor. Arms crossed, waiting for you to give them the sales pitch. You camera the sewer and start cleaning up and ask well, what do you think? You have now put the decision on a level playing field. They are much calmer, feel safer, and you now have there trust. If they feel there is nothing wrong with the sewer you don't need to work them to convince them there is. Pick your tools up and thank them for there time and be on your way. You didn't waste your time bu t you created one of the best marketing opportunities that costs you very little. You gained there trust and they will be sure to pass your name around like candy. Referrals will always be your best customers.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

bulldozer said:


> I think we are in a new economy with our customers. Back in the day the bigger the phone book add the bigger the customer base. I truly believe the internet has leveled the playing field. Bigger guys and small guys must compete the same. People go on youtube and other sites to educate themselves before they call. They are about gimmicked out. Heres an observation I have made on many of my sales calls. Your in the basement. Camering the sewer and the owner is watching the monitor. Arms crossed, waiting for you to give them the sales pitch. You camera the sewer and start cleaning up and ask well, what do you think? You have now put the decision on a level playing field. They are much calmer, feel safer, and you now have there trust. If they feel there is nothing wrong with the sewer you don't need to work them to convince them there is. Pick your tools up and thank them for there time and be on your way. You didn't waste your time bu t you created one of the best marketing opportunities that costs you very little. You gained there trust and they will be sure to pass your name around like candy. Referrals will always be your best customers.


Exactly! I just give them the quick and easy lesson of what a line should look like, telling them is should be nice and smooth like going through the tube at the water park. Nothing to slam into and get hurt, no sharp edges, everything nice, and then I let them find the problem...

They usually notice problems very easily, sometimes it takes a bit of looking to understand exactly what it is, and sometimes you have to say that's normal and nothing to worry about on a minor defect. But really it is a what you see is what you got sales approach and it works...


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

plungerboy said:


> lots of fine print. This what i have seen in ne ohio.
> 
> View attachment 29392
> 
> ...


Yes I have H/O's that call and want to buy a 1/4" or 3/8" x 100' cable to clear their main line with and when I ask how they are going to turn cable they say something like by hand or they are going to use their 3/8" drill lol.
Or they ask for a 100' of 3/4" cable that they are going to be turning by hand


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

It all seems the same as going on free estimates. Customers price shopping for the cheapest price, which from a consumers standpoint I can understand but I have to get paid for something that's going to take at least 90 minutes out of my day with drive time included.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

sierra2000 said:


> It all seems the same as going on free estimates. Customers price shopping for the cheapest price, which from a consumers standpoint I can understand but I have to get paid for something that's going to take at least 90 minutes out of my day with drive time included.


If you're doing it right then more often than not your time will be worth it.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

sierra2000 said:


> It all seems the same as going on free estimates. Customers price shopping for the cheapest price, which from a consumers standpoint I can understand but I have to get paid for something that's going to take at least 90 minutes out of my day with drive time included.


I was a skeptic years ago when my boss first told us we were going to be doing free camera inspections, I was close to saying forget about it and turn the camera in telling him to let someone else do it...:yes:

I decided to give it a try and see if it worked...

I ended up getting the camera into more lines than ever before, and lo & behold saw a marked increase in the sales of repairs & replacements of lines, pipe bursting & relinings...

Bottom line...
I'd rather go and give a free camera than go talk to someone about a bathroom remodel any day of the week...
The conversions are there and so is the commissions....


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

Being a business owner I was a skeptic to. Nobody wants to drive out and look in a crusted up sewer for free. Several years ago I just said screw it and ran a small ad that said what's in your pipes? The response was overwhelming. So I said screw it. I got a booth at the cleveland home and garden show. I advertised free sewer inspection. I personally sat there for 9 days 10 hrs. Per day offering free camera inspections. This was in march and snow on the ground we took down over 400 leads. 180 were sewer replacements with the cheapest being $3, 000.00 and the biggest being a 95, 000 municipal bursting job. He was there with his wife and she looked at flowers while we talked shop. Never be afraid to market outside of the box. You never know what you will get until you try.


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

I signed up for this coming years home show (2014) And have been going back and forth about what services to promote. I do 3 main things but different ways like Sewer repair, pipe bursting, lining, and patches. I prefer bursting but our pipe liner is all polished steel and people are drawn to it like moths to a light lol. So my plan was to set up liner machine and then have pictures of bursting jobs showing before and after of the yard because lets face it you never see what I have done once it is covered up by dirt. I am still working out the details but giving away free camera jobs would actually be pretty good. I would have a disclaimer though no free sewer camera jobs on realestate deals, only to people who are going to live in the home. And I just changed my website special from $199 to Free for sewer inspection with some limitations. I was already doing them free anyway so this just made it official lol


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

Cuda, your going to kill it! People go to the shows and its the same old roofing, gutter, and siding companies. I can't tell you how many people told me how refreshing to have something different. We had a lot of other contractors who were intrested in our services who were at the show with their wives. We had a very simple display but people got the jist when I started talking to them.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

Before Trenchless became popular you couldn't get a sewer inspection in this area for less than $200-$300. I can see the thinking behind it though, get in front of as many people as possible and it'll pan out. I'm good with batting 50/50 and still getting paid for my camera time. I've lowered my price a bit but I'm not willing to give it away.

On another note, do you give the 50 year warranty that's also becoming the norm. I started out doing it too but quickly changed that to 5 years due to too many unknowns, being in an earthquake state. I guess this concern would only apply to lining though and working in an earthquake state. But then again, when you build a brand new house you don't give a 50 or 25 year warranty on the sewer main so why do it just because it's Trenchless? It's getting too competitive so I guess some need it for a selling point maybe.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

bulldozer said:


> Cuda, your going to kill it! People go to the shows and its the same old roofing, gutter, and siding companies. I can't tell you how many people told me how refreshing to have something different. We had a lot of other contractors who were intrested in our services who were at the show with their wives. We had a very simple display but people got the jist when I started talking to them.


Something to consider.


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

sierra2000 said:


> Before Trenchless became popular you couldn't get a sewer inspection in this area for less than $200-$300. I can see the thinking behind it though, get in front of as many people as possible and it'll pan out. I'm good with batting 50/50 and still getting paid for my camera time. I've lowered my price a bit but I'm not willing to give it away.
> 
> On another note, do you give the 50 year warranty that's also becoming the norm. I started out doing it too but quickly changed that to 5 years due to too many unknowns, being in an earthquake state. I guess this concern would only apply to lining though and working in an earthquake state. But then again, when you build a brand new house you don't give a 50 or 25 year warranty on the sewer main so why do it just because it's Trenchless? It's getting too competitive so I guess some need it for a selling point maybe.


I give 50 year warranty on HDPE pipe Bursting jobs and 10 year on lining the same warranty I get from the lining manufacturer.


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

I prefer the pipe bursting over the lining for one reason. That material is made to last ohio is not an earthquake state but does have a lot of seismic activity. The hdpe pipe has flexibility. I firmly believe in the right conditions trenchless is a better system. In pipe bursting your not disturbing the soil again. Which when excavated does create different weight loads when backfilling. You don't have to tuck it with stone and the excavation of a burst pit is much safer then an open trench. Around us there is a ton of clay sewer lines over a hundred years old. If they would have perfected the joints we wouldn't have a business. Trenchless is not a cure all but a unique tool to have. Its been time proven at well over 35 years and a cost effective way of replacing sewers. I'm not saying offering a free camera is for everyone but as the home depot rents them for $50.00 bucks it becomes harder to compete. Call it what you will but the new economy is upon us! People expect more for less and I don't see it changing anytime soon. There is no one business model that cures all.


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## sierra2000 (Sep 19, 2011)

the home depot rents them for $50.00 bucks [/QUOTE]
Hoping it doesn't catch on out here.


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## gear junkie (Jun 20, 2008)

Rents a camera for 50?


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

You can rent the electric eel camera in the tool rental section at home depot. $50.00 dollars for 4 hrs. I can not wait to see how many reterms they end up doing. Not sure if they have the locators with them but my jaw dropped when I saw them.


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## Best Darn Sewer (Dec 23, 2012)

bulldozer said:


> You can rent the electric eel camera in the tool rental section at home depot. $50.00 dollars for 4 hrs. I can not wait to see how many reterms they end up doing. Not sure if they have the locators with them but my jaw dropped when I saw them.


Wow. At Aztec rental the starting price for a brand new General Gen-Eye camera was $225 for a day. I thought that was reasonable. They actually checked to see if I was licensed before hand because of not than they hit you with a security deposit.


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

sierra2000 said:


> Free as in you go out on a call to give a bid for sewer replacement and have to use your camera? During a main line cleaning I can understand, but even then it's built into my price.


I think the reason I started doing them free was I needed to know how deep the sewer was, I needed to see how many other lines where connected and where. And could I even get my bursting cable through the line to do the sewer replacement. I found previous contractors camera footage was blurry or they went to fast for me to see things I needed to see and I could not trust the markings depth or location they had done whether they did it on purpose or where bad at locating. So for all bids the camera got used free. And my conversions increased from when I used to charge plus now I was getting to give more bids.


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

Sorry if I sound dumb with this question but I have no experience at all with lining or bursting. But if it's just as good as excavating, replacing, and bedding in gravel or sand then why is the warranty only 10 years. Around here it's standard to stand behind excavation work for life


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Unclog1776 said:


> Sorry if I sound dumb with this question but I have no experience at all with lining or bursting. But if it's just as good as excavating, replacing, and bedding in gravel or sand then why is the warranty only 10 years. Around here it's standard to stand behind excavation work for life


Really it depends on the application... It might be better than digging...

Have you ever looked at a job that would cost a bundle to dig because of obstacles or, a business disruption?

I can shoot a liner through a cleanout and most folks won't even know I was working there....


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## bulldozer (Jan 11, 2009)

We stand behind ours life of the install on bursting. I agree with cuda. If you don't do your homework you won't have a successful experience. We are currently on a job 17 ft. Dp. Leaving a building. Crossing 3 lanes of traffic and through a city park. Couldnt imagine the cost to open trench.


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

Unclog1776 said:


> Sorry if I sound dumb with this question but I have no experience at all with lining or bursting. But if it's just as good as excavating, replacing, and bedding in gravel or sand then why is the warranty only 10 years. Around here it's standard to stand behind excavation work for life


The warranty on lining is 10 years not pipe bursting HDPE is forever pipe, the only thing I see that can effect HDPE is bellies because the host pipe was flat or bellied when the operation was done. That said there are new ways under use that can raise a no graded section of pipe. Lining has a 10 year warranty on the product itself the contractor installing the product may give whatever warranty they want. As was stated by bulldozer the joints for the most part is what has done clay and concrete sewers in not age. The roots find the separation and go in, when the line is in use a certain percentage of water leaks from the joint as well, the soil becomes soft and the weight of the pipe can sink causing an offset joint or worse a complete separation which is why in modern times the snake is not going to solve the problems it once did. Americas sewer infrastructure is at double it's life expectancy that is why trenchless replacement is a growing business that can only get better. My personal feeling is that pipe bursting is the best answer to the growing problem and lining is a cheaper short term answer to the problem. I also believe that in the future I will be using pipe bursting to fix the lining jobs that are being installed today. Pipe lining is a temporary repair until the warranty is extended on the product. But right now pipe lining is all the rage! lol


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