# How NOT to do a solar pool system



## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

I'm going to upload 1st then comment.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

next salvo


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

Did they run out of strun in Florida or something? I love the pipe clamps! Make sure the system isn't over pressurized from the pool equipment


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

see pics for screw ups


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Its hard to read the Red Text in your picts. 

Looks like the HO either did that himself or got ripped from a Solarpoweredhandyhackmen.:thumbup:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

That system was installed by one of the most well known solar contractors in town. He's now out of business........can't imagine why.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

What are you going to do to fix it? Did you get the job? How much did the original guy charge? Did it work right? How old is it?.........i don't know why i care:thumbup:


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## trick1 (Sep 18, 2008)

Was it supposed to be a drainback system?? I didn't see any vents on the top of the collectors. Then again I couldn't get past the piping:blink:


Not that there's much drainback goin on anyways!!


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## trick1 (Sep 18, 2008)

Is that plastic pipe serving the supply and returns or is that insulation...if it's plastic and a closed system..........I'd be frightened to see what happens when stall temp is reached and the pressure refief valve is all gummed up from the glycol!!:no:


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## Tankless (Jun 12, 2008)

trick1 said:


> Is that plastic pipe serving the supply and returns or is that insulation...if it's plastic and a closed system..........I'd be frightened to see what happens when stall temp is reached and the pressure refief valve is all gummed up from the glycol!!:no:


You do realize this is a pool solar system, don't you?


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## trick1 (Sep 18, 2008)

Tankless said:


> You do realize this is a pool solar system, don't you?



Now that you mention it.....no, I didn't realize it

We don't get into direct pool solar heating systems....we usually pipe them as a dump zone for a domestic solar thermal system.

I only feel a little stupid now!!:laughing:


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

:laughing: I was about to say the same thing



Tankless said:


> You do realize this is a pool solar system, don't you?


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

It's a direct drain down system. Very common in Florida and other southern states. Basically when the differential controller shuts the 3-way valve down and the pump, the panels are supposed to drain down into the pool. The trouble is, the douche who installed this system ran the lines over the ridge of the roof. It MAY drain down from siphoning.......but then again what if it doesn't siphon.......

Another problem is the lack of support on the supply line. Notice how the clamp connector on the bottom of the first panel is being yanked down. I wonder if that's the reason that the last few runner tubes have hair line cracks where they are fused to the header and it's leaking onto the roof deck? :whistling2:


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## TheSkinnyGuy (Sep 15, 2009)

Protech said:


> That system was installed by one of the most well known solar contractors in town. He's now out of business........can't imagine why.


 
a stick or two of unistrut, a box or so of unistrut clamps, or maybe even hydro-sorb clamps, and some craftsmenship would have done this job a little good eh?

also... if you got hairline cracks good luck with any siphoning...


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## FLSolarDesign (May 16, 2016)

Protech said:


> It's a direct drain down system. Very common in Florida and other southern states. Basically when the differential controller shuts the 3-way valve down and the pump, the panels are supposed to drain down into the pool. The trouble is, the douche who installed this system ran the lines over the ridge of the roof. It MAY drain down from siphoning.......but then again what if it doesn't siphon.......
> 
> Another problem is the lack of support on the supply line. Notice how the clamp connector on the bottom of the first panel is being yanked down. I wonder if that's the reason that the last few runner tubes have hair line cracks where they are fused to the header and it's leaking onto the roof deck? :whistling2:


There are some cases where solar pool heating cannot be plumbed to fully drain. In these cases, a manual drain valve is always required.

Proper clamp spacing and materials are critical to protecting the roof when installing a solar pool heater. I don't get why so many solar contractors don't understand that! Roof leaks with solar pool heaters are almost always because the plumbing and fittings are not properly supported.


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## FLSolarDesign (May 16, 2016)

It's really not that hard to elevate plumbing off the roof!


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

FLSolarDesign said:


> It's really not that hard to elevate plumbing off the roof!


The trouble with that is the PVC with get soft in the Florida heat and droop down and will still rub the roof deck. Better than nothing I guess. Still better than 95% of the installations I see on a regular basis.

The clamps are too close to the 90 in that valley. This may cause the the 90 itself to crack or the pipe at the cement bead to crack due to stresses caused by thermal cycling. I repair those all the time done exactly that way.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

FLSolarDesign said:


> There are some cases where solar pool heating cannot be plumbed to fully drain. In these cases, a manual drain valve is always required.
> 
> Proper clamp spacing and materials are critical to protecting the roof when installing a solar pool heater. I don't get why so many solar contractors don't understand that! Roof leaks with solar pool heaters are almost always because the plumbing and fittings are not properly supported.


"There are some cases where solar pool heating cannot be plumbed to fully drain." Can't or the property owner is unwilling to pay the extra money?
Manual drains are better than nothing but in most cases the homeowner forgets to use them or just isn't home when a freeze occurs. 

"Proper clamp spacing and materials are critical to protecting the roof when installing a solar pool heater. I don't get why so many solar contractors don't understand that!" I find it funny that you violated both items in the photo you uploaded LOL.


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## FLSolarDesign (May 16, 2016)

Protech said:


> The trouble with that is the PVC with get soft in the Florida heat and droop down and will still rub the roof deck. Better than nothing I guess. Still better than 95% of the installations I see on a regular basis.


Proper support intervals avoid drooping to a great extent, but more importantly is supporting (elevating) the plumbing at the common rub points like at fittings, bells, at hips and valleys, and over ridges (if absolutely necessary). White plumbing is far less prone to issues than black plumbing and voiding the system of water when not in use helps drastically. That means installing a proper vacuum relief valve and installing the system to drain naturally.

We routinely see systems that have dug into the shingles down to the roof felt or decking. Understanding the places where this is likely to happen is key to addressing the potential problem at the time of installation. It's not cheap to do it right, but savvy consumers will pay a little extra to hire the right company and protect their roof.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Hello stranger ^^^


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## FLSolarDesign (May 16, 2016)

Protech said:


> "There are some cases where solar pool heating cannot be plumbed to fully drain." Can't or the property owner is unwilling to pay the extra money?


There are many cases, especially with gable roofs, where it is impossible to plumb the system to drain back to the pool equipment due to obstructions (i.e. windows, doors, foundations, decks, etc.) Sure, anything is possible with enough dynamite, but in many cases it is impractical at best. There are technically ways to make some systems drain, like plumbing through an attic, which I would NEVER do, or going along a gable wall, which most consumers reject. Trenching is an option, but heat loss to the ground becomes an issue. 

Manual drains are not ideal, and most homeowners will not operate them properly as you suggest, but we can't do much more than educate customers about the risks of inaction.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

FLSolarDesign said:


> Proper support intervals avoid drooping to a great extent, but more importantly is supporting (elevating) the plumbing at the common rub points like at fittings, bells, at hips and valleys, and over ridges (if absolutely necessary). White plumbing is far less prone to issues than black plumbing and voiding the system of water when not in use helps drastically. That means installing a proper vacuum relief valve and installing the system to drain naturally.
> 
> We routinely see systems that have dug into the shingles down to the roof felt or decking. Understanding the places where this is likely to happen is key to addressing the potential problem at the time of installation. It's not cheap to do it right, but savvy consumers will pay a little extra to hire the right company and protect their roof.


Elevation is good. Skid plating is better.

White PVC is a bit less likely to droop from heat but it is still not the proper material. CPVC is proper. There again though, many homeowners just end up going with the lowest bid so most systems are done with PVC instead of CPVC. Also, in the photo you supplied how did you prime that joint without getting any purple primer on the outside? You did use primer.....right?


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## FLSolarDesign (May 16, 2016)

Protech said:


> "Proper clamp spacing and materials are critical to protecting the roof when installing a solar pool heater. I don't get why so many solar contractors don't understand that!" I find it funny that you violated both items in the photo you uploaded LOL.


I'm not sure exactly what you are talking about, but if you are talking about the distance to the valley, this is absolutely the correct way to do it. You never want to penetrate a valley flashing. If you are talking about using a skid plate here, it is not necessary. The fitting will never touch the roof in our experience.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)




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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

FLSolarDesign said:


> I'm not sure exactly what you are talking about, but if you are talking about the distance to the valley, this is absolutely the correct way to do it. You never want to penetrate a valley flashing. If you are talking about using a skid plate here, it is not necessary. The fitting will never touch the roof in our experience.


You simply glue an additional metal folded flashing above the shingle.

Depending on the length of the pipes, the fitting absolutely WILL rub the roof deck. It's just geometry. If either pipe gets longer from thermal expansion (and they always do) the pipe will drive the fitting into the valley shingles.


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## FLSolarDesign (May 16, 2016)

Protech said:


> Elevation is good. Skid plating is better.


We use skid plating where panel couplings touch the roof. In our experience, skid plating is not necessary for properly elevated fittings. 



Protech said:


> White PVC is a bit less likely to droop from heat but it is still not the proper material. CPVC is proper. There again though, many homeowners just end up going with the lowest bid so most systems are done with PVC instead of CPVC. Also, in the photo you supplied how did you prime that joint without getting any purple primer on the outside? You did use primer.....right?


I totally disagree. White PVC will last the lifetime of the panels if installed with proper care. The extra cost of CPVC is unwarranted. It's not used even for return lines on gas pool heaters that heat the water to much higher temperatures.

As for the primer, thanks for posting the Florida plumbing code section that applies to "Water Supply Systems," defined as the potable water supply piping for homes (601.1). That does not apply here. Regardless, that picture was taken for marketing purposes, and we do use primer where necessary and/or required by our trade.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

FLSolarDesign said:


> There are some cases where solar pool heating cannot be plumbed to fully drain. In these cases, a manual drain valve is always required.
> 
> Proper clamp spacing and materials are critical to protecting the roof when installing a solar pool heater. I don't get why so many solar contractors don't understand that! Roof leaks with solar pool heaters are almost always because the plumbing and fittings are not properly supported.


Just who the fook are you to whore this site?


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## FLSolarDesign (May 16, 2016)

Protech said:


> You simply glue an additional metal folded flashing above the shingle.
> 
> Depending on the length of the pipes, the fitting absolutely WILL rub the roof deck. It's just geometry. If either pipe gets longer from thermal expansion (and they always do) the pipe will drive the fitting into the valley shingles.


Well, our experience differs apparently. I would like to see a picture of your method, which is undoubtedly good, but that doesn't mean ours doesn't work.

You did bring about a good point about thermal expansion, and on long plumbing runs this is absolutely something to address (like when a long return line meets a valley). PVC expands about 3-1/2" per 100 ft with a 100 degree F rise. CPVC is a bit more than that. Securing the system plumbing so that it doesn't expand in the direction where a problem can occur is smart practice.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Even if he is just whoring for backlinks, we are having a much needed discussion to improve the solar industry. I for one welcome this discussion. It's long overdue. This is how industries improve.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

http://www.plumbingzone.com/f21/pita-solar-pool-heater-13800/#post480883


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## FLSolarDesign (May 16, 2016)

Protech said:


> Even if he is just whoring for backlinks, we are having a much needed discussion to improve the solar industry. I for one welcome this discussion. It's long overdue. This is how industries improve.


I'll go back and delete the links if that would help - I, too, truly want a productive dialog to make the industry better. Poor contractors give us a bad name and dissuade people from considering our products.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

notice the repaired area


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## FLSolarDesign (May 16, 2016)

Protech said:


> notice the repaired area


Yep - that's the spot where we see a lot of issues. Black return line plumbing is where we see a lot of split fittings due to overheated swollen plumbing. That long run is going to cause roof issues at the valley and I'm not a fan of that VRV location.

I'm sure we can go toe to toe with pictures of bad installs all day. Check out this attached disaster...


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## rwh (Dec 17, 2014)

FLSolarDesign said:


> Protech said:
> 
> 
> > Elevation is good. Skid plating is better.
> ...



Primer is absolutely necessary on pvc, always, any situation.


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## GREENPLUM (Jul 27, 2008)

Would copper work? Seems like it would be plumb & conduct heat better

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

GREENPLUM said:


> Would copper work? Seems like it would be plumb & conduct heat better
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Bad idea. Whole pool will turn green the 1st time they let the PH get low. Plus no one will pay that much.

Edit: Blue. I meant blue, not green.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

See attached pics



FLSolarDesign said:


> Well, our experience differs apparently. I would like to see a picture of your method, which is undoubtedly good, but that doesn't mean ours doesn't work.
> 
> You did bring about a good point about thermal expansion, and on long plumbing runs this is absolutely something to address (like when a long return line meets a valley). PVC expands about 3-1/2" per 100 ft with a 100 degree F rise. CPVC is a bit more than that. Securing the system plumbing so that it doesn't expand in the direction where a problem can occur is smart practice.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

Any time you cross a valley you must use a folded skid plate for the reasons noted in the pics I just posted. Elevating the pipe an inch will not work. Strapping the pipe close to changes in direction after long runs is a great way to break the strap and pull the screws right out of the roof deck and cause a leak. That or break the fitting.

Will be back later tonight for some additional points. Gotta give wifey some of my time.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

FLSolarDesign said:


> I totally disagree. White PVC will last the lifetime of the panels if installed with proper care. The extra cost of CPVC is unwarranted. It's not used even for return lines on gas pool heaters that heat the water to much higher temperatures.


What kind of pool heaters are you installing that heat the water to 150 degrees?
You do realize that the piping on the solar loop will get well above what any spa will....right? PVC is not rated for use above 125 degrees and it certainly will get that hot on the solar loop on a roof in Florida. Using white PVC will help a tab but the collectors themselves will stagnate at much higher temperatures than what PVC is rated for.

I have measured stagnation temps above 140 degrees in the field.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

FLSolarDesign said:


> I'll go back and delete the links if that would help - I, too, truly want a productive dialog to make the industry better. Poor contractors give us a bad name and dissuade people from considering our products.


I'm with you on the bad contractors. The industry needs to be regulated more. Codes need to be written and enforced. The trouble with the solar thermal industry right now is no one is protecting property owners. There are basically no construction codes for solar thermal in Florida and inspectors are not even educated on the few that are on the books. Systems should be designed and installed to last as long or longer than the roofs they are mounted too. I have met with countless home owners who are disgusted with their solar systems due to the poor design and workmanship. As a result, they spread rumors that solar doesn't work or is unreliable and not cost effective. What most of these property owners have in common is they went with the lowest bidder and did not check references.


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## Protech (Sep 22, 2008)

FLSolarDesign said:


> Yep - that's the spot where we see a lot of issues. Black return line plumbing is where we see a lot of split fittings due to overheated swollen plumbing. That long run is going to cause roof issues at the valley and I'm not a fan of that VRV location.
> 
> I'm sure we can go toe to toe with pictures of bad installs all day. Check out this attached disaster...


Good catch on the VRV. Not only is it not on the highest point of the system but it isn't even a VRV. It's just a threaded check valve. Since it has a relatively high cracking pressure it usually won't allow the collectors to fully drain even if it is installed at the high end of the system. I've also seen plenty of those PVC valves overheat and warp so they lock in the closed position.


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