# 2" Rp



## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

It,s a leaker.


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## ROCKSTARPLUMBER (Dec 14, 2008)

Ker chang.:thumbup:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Usually there is an object in the first check. I don't see a strainer, so that is highly possible.

3 minute fix..........


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Leaking out the bottom, ordered up the rebuild kit, waiting on it to come in before I take this bad boy apart.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

9 times out of 10 you can flip the rubber check disc over. No parts needed.


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

Who's got my silicone?


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Febco 825Ys are about as easy as it gets. As for flipping the disc, you could do it but it is not approved or recommended.

Mark


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Now why would flipping the rubber part of the disc not be recommeneded or approved? I would like to see that in writing. I will change my ways...

If there has been an object in contact with the rubber for a time, it will be dented there. It won't test. The rubber does however have a factory smooth side. 

Flip and test. I don't sell parts to people who don't need them.

Now if the rubber is cut or cracked. That gets changed........


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

If there was a contamination incident and my name was listed as the certified tester, I would hate to testify in court that on my initial test that the device failed. And when ask.. Mr. Slick, What measures did you take to correct the situation? I flipped the disk to save a buck. I don't think so.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

When I first started testing BF assemblies, I had a Febco that failed. I told HO "Oh I can re-build your device." In my ignorance I didn't check the seats (in particular the num. 2 check valve). After re-building w/ new rubber kit, to my dismay, the device was still failing. So if seats are not re-moveable, and seats are rough, pitted, etc, then replace with a Wilkins 975XL, in my opinion.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I think we are splitting hairs here. 

If I flipped the rubber. Then the device tested tight. How is it there is a magical contamination issue....

We are talking a minute dent in the rubber here. Not some catastrophic failure that is rubber banded together.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Matt said:


> I think we are splitting hairs here.
> 
> If I flipped the rubber. Then the device tested tight. How is it there is a magical contamination issue....
> 
> We are talking a minute dent in the rubber here. Not some catastrophic failure that is rubber banded together.


I am saying that any mechanical device is subject to failure. As the last person to certify that device, for whatever reason it might fail during the period until the next inspection, the last tester would be the one they went after first, and the last report on that device.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

slickrick said:


> I am saying that any mechanical device is subject to failure. As the last person to certify that device, for whatever reason it might fail during the period until the next inspection, the last tester would be the one they went after first, and the last report on that device.


 
Device tests are ONLY good for that day and time. No garauntees on what might happen later. 

I hereby certify that on this date at blah blah o'clock. The device tested good. It could get a rock or something in it 5 minutes after I leave......


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Matt said:


> Device tests are ONLY good for that day and time. No garauntees on what might happen later.
> 
> I hereby certify that on this date at blah blah o'clock. The device tested good. It could get a rock or something in it 5 minutes after I leave......


That would not fly in court if someone like Mark came in to examine that device, found the grooves on the other side of the disk. A finger would be pointed. It's just not good practice. I would not recommend it.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Matt said:


> Now why would flipping the rubber part of the disc not be recommeneded or approved? I would like to see that in writing. I will change my ways...
> 
> If there has been an object in contact with the rubber for a time, it will be dented there. It won't test. The rubber does however have a factory smooth side.
> 
> ...


When I took my first Cross-Connection short course it was taught by Paul Swartz of USC's Foundation for Cross-Connection Control and Hydraulic Research. He was then and still is the Chief Engineer which means he is in charge of all assembly approval. He told us when an assembly leaks and it is not caused by debris only you need to install all parts which are in the factory repair kit. 

I went back and forth with him but his reasoning is the material has lost it's elasticity or firmness and the device will fail again soon unless new parts (complete kits) are installed. Keep in mind, this was back when a 2" 825Y was going for as much as $1,200 wholesale.

Mark


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

slickrick said:


> That would not fly in court if someone like Mark came in to examine that device, found the grooves on the other side of the disk. A finger would be pointed. It's just not good practice. I would not recommend it.


By the way, if you are a member of USC FCCCHR and you are ever sued for your backflow work they will supply you with an Expert Witness for free.

Mark


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

slickrick said:


> That would not fly in court if someone like Mark came in to examine that device, found the grooves on the other side of the disk. A finger would be pointed. It's just not good practice. I would not recommend it.


 

How did we leap from a dripping relief port to court. I don't get it. 

Are there court cases from failed RPZ's that previously passed inspection? I would like to know.


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

ToUtahNow said:


> By the way, if you are a member of USC FCCCHR and you are ever sued for your backflow work they will supply you with an Expert Witness for free.
> 
> Mark


All of our programs in Texas are based off of the USC FCCCHR recommendations.


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

*Fire Devices (Double checks)*

I have a question for ToUtah Now, do you test and certify the fire backflow prevention assemblies? I do but not sure if my license legally permits me to do so. A friend (plumber) told me in my location (FL.) plumbers are not supposed to test the fire backflows. As I said, I do and bill my customers for it.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> I have a question for ToUtah Now, do you test and certify the fire backflow prevention assemblies? I do but not sure if my license legally permits me to do so. A friend (plumber) told me in my location (FL.) plumbers are not supposed to test the fire backflows. As I said, I do and bill my customers for it.


Out West we don't see a difference between the use of the device. The only thing we need to do is make sure the building calls the Fire Department, Alarm Company and Insurance Company if needed before the water is shut down.

Mark


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Thank You. You may know this trick, when I test the large fire devices (with alarms), I test w/o turning OSY valve off. I leave pressure on, test with my high and low pressure hose, and get my differential reading. This way I do not have to have the alarm company put system on by-pass, I don't have to remove chains, talk to managers on duty who have no idea where keys are, etc. It saves some time. You are probably going to tell me that USC doesn't approve it.


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## njoy plumbing (May 19, 2009)

Matt said:


> Now why would flipping the rubber part of the disc not be recommeneded or approved? I would like to see that in writing. I will change my ways...
> 
> If there has been an object in contact with the rubber for a time, it will be dented there. It won't test. The rubber does however have a factory smooth side.
> 
> ...


 Do you make anything on the parts?:whistling2:


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Matt, when I took my continued ed class this year they said they no longer recommend flipping the rubbers. The guy that was lecturing said that came from Kim Bateman himself. I guess we could call Dave McMillan, Kim Bateman, or Mark Kuechler and ask them what they are teaching in the certification class now in regards to flipping the washers.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

ToUtahNow said:


> By the way, if you are a member of USC FCCCHR and you are ever sued for your backflow work they will supply you with an Expert Witness for free.
> 
> Mark


 
And that would be you Mark?


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> Thank You. You may know this trick, when I test the large fire devices (with alarms), I test w/o turning OSY valve off. I leave pressure on, test with my high and low pressure hose, and get my differential reading. This way I do not have to have the alarm company put system on by-pass, I don't have to remove chains, talk to managers on duty who have no idea where keys are, etc. It saves some time. You are probably going to tell me that USC doesn't approve it.


 You are not performing the test properly. The test procedures call for the number one valve to be closed tight. Period.

So what happens if there is a fire, and there is a problem. "Mr. Tommy, did you properly perform the test, according to the proper test procedures?" Your answer will have to be "No, I did not". 

Besides that, I understand that if you do turn off the number one valve,you need to perform a flow test of the system. 

So, no, I do not test fire protection backflow preventers. Let the fire protection company have that.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> Thank You. You may know this trick, when I test the large fire devices (with alarms), I test w/o turning OSY valve off. I leave pressure on, test with my high and low pressure hose, and get my differential reading. This way I do not have to have the alarm company put system on by-pass, I don't have to remove chains, talk to managers on duty who have no idea where keys are, etc. It saves some time. You are probably going to tell me that USC doesn't approve it.


 



RealLivePlumber said:


> You are not performing the test properly. The test procedures call for the number one valve to be closed tight. Period.
> 
> So what happens if there is a fire, and there is a problem. "Mr. Tommy, did you properly perform the test, according to the proper test procedures?" Your answer will have to be "No, I did not".
> 
> ...


Ya close the #2 valve. If it is not shut your #2 check test will be inaccurate. The pressure in the riser could be high rendering your test void. Your gauge will not read differential when this happens.

Another part of the test is the outlet shut-off valve check. Kinda hard to do when it is open....


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

njoy plumbing said:


> Do you make anything on the parts?:whistling2:


If I were to follow that school of thought, I would just replace the entire device. More money, right?


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## Tommy plumber (Feb 19, 2010)

Thanks for the response Real Live Plumber and Matt. I've tested double check valve assembies using both tests, and I get the same readings either way. I don't know it all, perhaps I am missing something. But the flow through a fire device is static (no-flow); this condition provides a controlled environment in which to test. Do you agree? I'm open to others' opinions. (Bottom line, if it isn't an APPROVED test method, than it's not permitted)


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Matt said:


> And that would be you Mark?


No it would likely be an engineer from USC. Consider all of these devices we install must go through USC to be approved. The manufacturer must test their prototype in the field for one year without a failure before they can be approved. It is a very lengthy and costly process. If one fails USC wants to know why.

Mark


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

I heard from some guys that every 5 years the device is suppused to have all its rubber parts replaced. What do you all think of that?


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Till I see it in the code (never). It ain't gonna happen.


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## TheSkinnyGuy (Sep 15, 2009)

I ain't never seen it in code or in writing anywhere, but if I do flip the disk I order a rebuild kit for it and come back to it later. Flipping is a quick fix, and sometimes you can get a year or two out of it, but the rubber seats in the same place, and the wear ring on the other side creates a potential leaker. Personal preference as far as I know.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Fixed it today replaced all the rubbers in it, no more leaky leaky. Every rubber disc and o-ring I touched came back with black on the finger tips.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Ron said:


> Fixed it today replaced all the rubbers in it, no more leaky leaky. Every rubber disc and o-ring I touched came back with black on the finger tips.


Finger lickin good:thumbup: 

Chloramines are great for the plumber.


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

Matt said:


> Finger lickin good:thumbup:
> 
> Chloramines are great for the plumber.


It was amazing how a few o-rings and a few disc can cost so much, close to $80 shipped. :blink:


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Ron said:


> It was amazing how a few o-rings and a few disc can cost so much, close to $80 shipped. :blink:


 heh, I rebuilt a 4" RP last week, the rubber kit ran me $825... but much cheaper than a whole new 4" RP.


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## Cleanmen2 (Apr 10, 2010)

Hi guys from downunder. Just thought I would throw a couple of side balls into the ring. I take on board teh comments both ways onflipping the washers. Its up to the individual but really unless it is split then..........???
On the issue of valve selection I am a WILKINS fan from way back. Stuff the cost it is the on-going service which is important. The seats are replaceable. And then along comes the new valve model 375. What a cracker of a valve. Trust me I was spinning with excitement. And they are sensational to service


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## RealLivePlumber (Jun 22, 2008)

^ Quite the vocabulary:laughing:


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## SlickRick (Sep 3, 2009)

Cleanmen2 said:


> Hi guys from downunder. Just thought I would throw a couple of side balls into the ring. I take on board teh comments both ways onflipping the washers. Its up to the individual but really unless it is split then..........???
> On the issue of valve selection I am a WILKINS fan from way back. Stuff the cost it is the on-going service which is important. The seats are replaceable. And then along comes the new valve model 375. What a cracker of a valve. Trust me I was spinning with excitement. And they are sensational to service


My question would be, Why would anyone re-install used parts? I'm curious, What discription would one use when documenting " Repairs and materials used" when a disk is flipped? Assuming the report included this info. Which I believe most do.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

RealLivePlumber said:


> ^ Quite the vocabulary:laughing:


That is one of the problems on this site I would like to see changed. It is hard to tell where someone is posting from as it is not always listed. If you knew he was a Master Plumber with 30-years of experience who happens to be in Australia you would probably better understand his point of reference. 

After reading the posts from the Australian members on the Ridgid site you start to see how similar yet different our challenges are. I believe it adds to the discussion to have as much insight as possible as to how things are done elsewhere. 

As a side note, I have a daughter who went vacationing in Australia and never came home. She met a boy she couldn't live without and stayed there. Fast forward 6 of 7 years and now I have a couple of grand babies we have to go visit. 

Mark


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## M5Plumb (Oct 2, 2008)

Too much liability in using existing parts from the same equipment. All new parts for the rebuild, that's what the customer is paying for. :thumbsup:



Cleanmen2 said:


> Hi guys from downunder. Just thought I would throw a couple of side balls into the ring. I take on board teh comments both ways onflipping the washers. Its up to the individual but really unless it is split then..........???
> On the issue of valve selection I am a WILKINS fan from way back. Stuff the cost it is the on-going service which is important. The seats are replaceable. And then along comes the new valve model 375. What a cracker of a valve. Trust me I was spinning with excitement. And they are sensational to service


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## Cleanmen2 (Apr 10, 2010)

Mark you are a breath of fresh air. Its true what you say, there are variations all over the world. On this topic of Backflow although it is not new today in Australia, it is definitely years behind in comparison to elsewhere in the world. In my State of Victoria we cant even get legislation to enforce this part of plumbing. The Government are pathetic to say the least. They beat us up over licensing and protection of the "Beloved Consumer" and yet they endorsed gross ripping off of them. They believe in the "ïf it happens we will find someone to blame" rationale instead of giving powers to actually enforce the rules and regulations. We have a whip the good guys and dont touch the others because they are the ones that will vote us back into Government at the next election. 
I stumbled across this discussion last night and I must admit, I was dumbfounded. You guys are true professionals. Dont misunderstand this becasue we too believe we are similar. However your government supports you, ours doesnt. The fact that your Govt. looks and believes in the seriousness of contamination of water supply and legislates to protect it is commendable. Our Govt have advisers that believe that Plumbers are overpaid, ripoff the community and are basically not important parts of society. They believe they can go down to the Big Green Shed, similar to your HO wharehouse and learn to DIY cheaper. So much for protectors of HEALTH


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## Cleanmen2 (Apr 10, 2010)

Mark, I have been thinking more and more about what you said. We do have many things in common yet we do things differently all ove rthe world. In the Ridgid Forim I was chasing Plumber Rick for information on the Propress system. It is only recently becoming more exposed forthe poor use of the words in our suppliers. You guys have jumped in and embraced the system years ago and have the knowlege to impart. I ask questions through caution, not scepticism. We have many things to share which leads to advancement of industry and knowlege. Love to start a new thread if it hasnt already been done before as a general chat about things different. Back to the RP question of flipping the rubbers, again it comes down to the individual. I know over here teh perceived experts are as shifty as all get-up. Preach one thing, do another.


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Cleanmen2 said:


> Mark, I have been thinking more and more about what you said. We do have many things in common yet we do things differently all ove rthe world. In the Ridgid Forim I was chasing Plumber Rick for information on the Propress system. It is only recently becoming more exposed forthe poor use of the words in our suppliers. You guys have jumped in and embraced the system years ago and have the knowlege to impart. I ask questions through caution, not scepticism. We have many things to share which leads to advancement of industry and knowlege. Love to start a new thread if it hasnt already been done before as a general chat about things different. Back to the RP question of flipping the rubbers, again it comes down to the individual. I know over here teh perceived experts are as shifty as all get-up. Preach one thing, do another.


Lack of support from Government entities can be very frustrating here as well. We have broad Federal Laws and some States have strict enforcement and some do not. I feel it is important to remember the Codes are minimum standards and it does not hurt to go beyond the minimum requirements.

My daughter is in Sebastopol, Victoria. We visit daily on Facebook of all places. It has been fun because her friends in Australia interact with her friends and family here. It seems both sides have to translate a little at times. Even a simple thing like chocolate pudding takes on two different meanings depending on which country you are in.

Mark


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Tommy plumber said:


> I have a question for ToUtah Now, do you test and certify the fire backflow prevention assemblies? I do but not sure if my license legally permits me to do so. A friend (plumber) told me in my location (FL.) plumbers are not supposed to test the fire backflows. As I said, I do and bill my customers for it.


In Arkansas, Fire Protection companies are the only ones approved to test fire protection backflow assemblies


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

SewerRatz said:


> I heard from some guys that every 5 years the device is suppused to have all its rubber parts replaced. What do you all think of that?


It was true at one time, but I am not sure if it still is. The municipalities were enforcing years ago, but no longer are.


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## Associated Plum (Nov 4, 2008)

Matt said:


> Till I see it in the code (never). It ain't gonna happen.


You wont find it in a code book, but what do the manufaturers say about it?


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## SewerRatz (Apr 25, 2009)

Associated Plum said:


> In Arkansas, Fire Protection companies are the only ones approved to test fire protection backflow assemblies


Here in Illinois the Fire Protection companies can not touch the backflow preventer unless they have a licensed plumber doing the work.


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## Cleanmen2 (Apr 10, 2010)

Hi guys. So Mark was right, we do have similar challenges. Down here if you "do the right thing" you set yourself up for a hammering. Our incompetent authority preys on the good guys and lets the others walk for fear of been seen as whipping the underdog. Our license is just there for judges and lawyers to say we should have known better. Our guys preach enforcement of the regulations. Action only happens after incident or complaint to the TV by the consumer. There are many good guys who operate in honesty and fairness and yet when we demand support for the regulations they all run for cover. We also believe that over here there is a conspiracy with the Insurance Companies becasue they contribute to so many and we have compulsory Insurance that is a total scam. They dont care for regulations except whenthey crawl out of paying out for dodgy work. Then they absolutely slaughter all of us the next year for higher premiums because we can not renew our licence without insurance. Captive audience hey..!!!!!!!!


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## Cleanmen2 (Apr 10, 2010)

Hey Mark have you visited Sebastapol yet??


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Cleanmen2 said:


> Hey Mark have you visited Sebastapol yet??


Not yet, her and the kids were suppose to come out last year and had to cancel. Hopefully we will may the trek before too long.

Mark


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## Cleanmen2 (Apr 10, 2010)

Mark, if you dont already know we are somewhat civilised down here. Most of us have simple things like running water, toilets that flush and there are plenty of Golden Arches around , not many in the bush but. The drought has forced the Kangaroos nearer to cities and there many things to do for enjoyment. Come over anytime, we'll welcome you


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## ToUtahNow (Jul 19, 2008)

Cleanmen2 said:


> Mark, if you dont already know we are somewhat civilised down here. Most of us have simple things like running water, toilets that flush and there are plenty of Golden Arches around , not many in the bush but. The drought has forced the Kangaroos nearer to cities and there many things to do for enjoyment. Come over anytime, we'll welcome you


Thank you, I really am looking forward to getting down there some day.

Mark


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## 1plumb4uall (Jan 6, 2010)

*Flipping the washer*



slickrick said:


> If there was a contamination incident and my name was listed as the certified tester, I would hate to testify in court that on my initial test that the device failed. And when ask.. Mr. Slick, What measures did you take to correct the situation? I flipped the disk to save a buck. I don't think so.


In my backflow certification class flipping the wasers was an aceptable means of repair. USC sanctioned class


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## Cleanmen2 (Apr 10, 2010)

Again I say we have similarities. When I did my course we were told it was ok to flip the washers. It is an absolute joke here because there is only regulation after incident. Reactive licensing.


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