# Hot water too hot



## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

We are doing some carpentry work in a day care center and when I washed out the paint brush I got burned by the hot water. It is hot enough to hard boil an egg. I told the centers administrator and she went back to see and sure enough she felt it too. She said someone came and changed the water heater and removed a box that used to be above it. From what she described it was the tempering valve. These kids are pre school on up in age and I told her I would hate to see one of them get burned. She is going to ask her son tonight what the other plumber done. I gave her a couple of choices. Just wanted your opinion on which route to go.

1) Install a tempering valve above the heater, but that means trying to isolate the lines going to the 3 bathrooms 

2) Turn down the water heater to a safe level, then installing an insta hot at the dish washing area



Any thoughts?
The lines are covered up in the walls and ceiling, so it will make it hard to isolate them. I could use compressed air to tell I guess.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

You could probably use an under sink tempering valve, ASSE 1016, dont have the exacts in front of me but use them alot here if there is room:thumbsup:


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

I thought that too, but there is an electrical code concerning plugs near water in a day care center though


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## smellslike$tome (Jun 16, 2008)

Bill said:


> I thought that too, but there is an electrical code concerning plugs near water in a day care center though


Ok you lost me. What would an electrical plug have to do with an undersink tempering valve?


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

:blink: me too


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Bill, A watts usg-b will fit perfectly under the sink, I hope.:yes:


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

Oh crappers! Sorry, I was thinking a insta hot, color me red!


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

P.S. 3/8" connections and ASSE 1016,1069 AND 1070:yes::thumbsup:


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## Jaret (Mar 4, 2009)

Turn down the hot water tank setting. What kind of hot water tank? 

Anything like that should be controlled. Its code here in Canada for anything to do with kids, elderly, and disabled. All hospitals have to have tempered controls. Anyway, should be able to adjust it on the tank, take it down to 80 if you can, might be the lowest you can go. 

Get us the make and model and could probably tell ya more.

J.


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Turning down the heater? Legionares Disease possible, plus you want to keep it hot for automatic washer and laundry, just my random musings:thumbsup:


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

PLUMB TIME said:


> Turning down the heater? Legionares Disease possible, plus you want to keep it hot for automatic washer and laundry, just my random musings:thumbsup:


That was my thought too, need that hot hot for dish's
Thats why if I turn it down, I would use an insta hot at the sink for dish


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## PLUMB TIME (Feb 2, 2009)

Keep the heater hot and temper the sinks, no problem I would think:yes::thumbsup:


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

A t-stat on a water heater is not an approved temperature regulating device. 

Put an approved tempering valve under each lav that is for public use. Set the WH @ 140. Set the hot side of the public fixtures to 105-110. It takes younguns a little longer to process getting burned and remove their hand.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

I type too slow:thumbup:

Good replies everybody.:laughing:


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> I type too slow:thumbup:
> 
> Good replies everybody.:laughing:


You need to do some more finger exercise then:laughing:


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

We installed tempering valves on baby washing stations at a hospital down here. They work great and are easy to install.


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

I think I will sugest the tempering valves under the sinks then. Seems to be the easiest and most direct method.


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## Jaret (Mar 4, 2009)

SOmething like this. Sorry, totally had a blond moment. Been awhile since i touched these things. Hope the link works, but they are super easy to install. 

http://www.efaucets.com/detail.asp?..._mmc=portals-_-NexTag-_-product-_-5-220-CK-MS

or

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/thermostatic-mixing-valves.html

Exactly what your guys are talking about.


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

Don't use a tempering valve for that location. No way!

Use a mixing valve. Costs double but it's really your only option.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

22rifle said:


> Don't use a tempering valve for that location. No way!
> 
> Use a mixing valve. Costs double but it's really your only option.


Huh?

A mixing valve mixes the incoming waters at a set ratio no matter what the temperature.

You need tempering valves. Preferably with a fail safe cold water bypass built in. ASSE 1071 (I think)

When a regular tempering valve fails it is to the full hot side of the spectrum.


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> Huh?
> 
> A mixing valve mixes the incoming waters at a set ratio no matter what the temperature.
> 
> ...


I am using Watt's terminology.

Hot Water Extender Tempering Valves for Residential Installations:









That one should never be used in the OP's application. Instead, you should use one like this:









That is what I (and others) call a mixing valve. This one is not to 1071 spec but I am not sure you need 1071 spec for this app.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

Would you rather hear the customer say:

1. Can you come look at the tempering valve in the boy's restroom. We only get cold water.

2. My lawyer will be calling you. That valve you installed failed and Johnny got second degree burns on his hands. See you in court.


IMHO. Please always install tempering valves with a built in cold water fail safe bypass. 

Make sure it has the ASSE # cast on the housing.


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> Would you rather hear the customer say:
> 
> 1. Can you come look at the tempering valve in the boy's restroom. We only get cold water.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I would have to agree.

But I still don't understand why you talk about a tempering valve. What I know as a tempering valve, as shown above, is a huge no-no for this app.


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## gladerunner (Jan 24, 2009)

We did a job once where we installed single lever lav faucets, I think they might have been made by sloan. They had scald guards built into the stem's. It was just an adjustable limit on range of mixture, kinda like in a single lever shower.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

22rifle said:


> Yeah, I would have to agree.
> 
> But I still don't understand why you talk about a tempering valve. What I know as a tempering valve, as shown above, is a huge no-no for this app.


Maybe lost in translation. When you say mixing valve. You mean thermostatic mixing valve. 

I throw anything that adjusts water mixture based on temp into the tempering valve bandwagon. 


I think we speak of the same thing. I am just a *******


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2008)

gladerunner said:


> We did a job once where we installed single lever lav faucets, I think they might have been made by sloan. They had scald guards built into the stem's. It was just an adjustable limit on range of mixture, kinda like in a single lever shower.


That's what I'm talking about !! You leave a RED handle " Doodle Hooper" around a kids bathroom ,,,,,,, Let's guess what they are going to do ??:whistling2:

Control the temp INSIDE the faucet . 

Well said Gladerunner !!

Cal


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

While not an approved means of tempering in my state. It is something to think about.


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## 22rifle (Jun 14, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> Maybe lost in translation. When you say mixing valve. You mean thermostatic mixing valve.
> 
> I throw anything that adjusts water mixture based on temp into the tempering valve bandwagon.
> 
> ...


Ah, OK. 

Hey, it might be my terminology that is off. Most likely, both of us are right.


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## SPH (Nov 4, 2008)

I'd have to agree with Gladerunner, keep it simple, let the faucet do the work.

Can't understand why any code wouldnt allow that.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

SPH said:


> Can't understand why any code wouldnt allow that.


Because the faucet isn't regulating exact discharge temperature. It would be regulating the maximum hot to cold ratio. Who's to say hot water supply temp to the faucet doesn't rise. Such as, a maintanence guy cranking up the WH.


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## Bill (Jun 17, 2008)

ILPlumber said:


> Because the faucet isn't regulating exact discharge temperature. It would be regulating the maximum hot to cold ratio. Who's to say hot water supply temp to the faucet doesn't rise. Such as, a maintanence guy cranking up the WH.


 
Absolutely right. The temp at the valve would be set to what the current wh temp is. If the wh temp was to rise, so would the temp at the faucet.


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## gladerunner (Jan 24, 2009)

whos to say that the same maintenance guy who turned up the hot water heater,(because they obviously needed more hot water), would'nt first try to turn up the thermastatic valve.


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## ILPlumber (Jun 17, 2008)

gladerunner said:


> whos to say that the same maintenance guy who turned up the hot water heater,(because they obviously needed more hot water), would'nt first try to turn up the thermastatic valve.


If you use the thermostat on the WH you have not done your due dilligence. If you installed an ASSE approved thermostatic mixing valve to feed the fixture you have.


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