# soldering older copper



## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

Im doing a reno at home, I decided if Im throwing in a new shower I will replace all the water pipe behind it. It was a royal PITA getting my sweat to pex adapters be solid. So Im wondering is older copper finiky, or??? New copper Im done in 30 seconds. I mean the joints don't even look that good. No water was in the line, cleaned it well etc. I think next time Im just getting shark bites. Any input or experience is appreciated.


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

AKdaplumba said:


> ...is older copper finiky....


No, it's just dirtier.

Sharkbites? Really? :laughing:


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## user2090 (Sep 26, 2009)

You should always take extra care when dealing with old copper. It needs to be cleaned extra good. I prefer to heat up and flux it and then use sand clothe. Then go through the motions.


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

I've had trouble with sweatxpex adapters on NEW copper too...Makes for some restless nights....


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

AKdaplumba said:


> Im doing a reno at home, I decided if Im throwing in a new shower I will replace all the water pipe behind it. It was a royal PITA getting my sweat to pex adapters be solid. So Im wondering is older copper finiky, or??? New copper Im done in 30 seconds. I mean the joints don't even look that good. No water was in the line, cleaned it well etc. I think next time Im just getting shark bites. Any input or experience is appreciated.


 You're probably dealing with the new lead free adapters. These can be a real bugger to sweat under the best of conditions.

I've had good luck with cleaning the bejeebers out of the adapters with both a fitting brush and sand cloth. The type of Flux seems to make a difference as well.

Stay away from the water soluble flux's -- I've been using the cold weather No Korrode with good results.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

I'm thinking it had a good bit to do with the pex adapters and I bet you'd have had a better time with copper fittings. Like everybody else said; CLEAN, CLEAN, CLEAN. 







Paul


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Old pipe for me gets C Flux
New gets No Korrode


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

rocksteady said:


> I'm thinking it had a good bit to do with the pex adapters and I bet you'd have had a better time with copper fittings. Like everybody else said; CLEAN, CLEAN, CLEAN.
> 
> Paul


You mean using wrought copper, instead of brass?


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## Greenguy (Jan 22, 2011)

As stated above clean everything damn good and use proper paste the old reliable, i use the old acid based stuff not that water soluble crap they want us to use now days.


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## rocksteady (Oct 8, 2008)

U666A said:


> You mean using wrought copper, instead of brass?


What I mainly meant was along the lines of what Widder posted. I was saying if he were to have made the tie in with copper only and not used the pex transitions, he may have had better luck. I've had some new brass fittings just not want to take solder. They can be a pain and if you add 20 year old, dirty copper to the picture it could be pretty frustrating.








Paul


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Nothing a judicious application of plumbers cloth can't cure... :yes:


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

AKdaplumba said:


> Im doing a reno at home, I decided if Im throwing in a new shower I will replace all the water pipe behind it. It was a royal PITA getting my sweat to pex adapters be solid. So Im wondering is older copper finiky, or??? New copper Im done in 30 seconds. I mean the joints don't even look that good. No water was in the line, cleaned it well etc. I think next time Im just getting shark bites. Any input or experience is appreciated.


I've never had any problem soldering to ancient dirty old copper. Just take your time - clean and flux it well. You need to work at the cleaning a lot more than new, clean copper. 

If you're nervous about your in-wall joints get a mechanic's mirror so you can have a good look at the backside to see if the joint took well all the way around. They're an excellent and inexpensive tool. You should have a couple on the truck anyway. Gives you peace of mind.


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## sikxsevn (Jun 23, 2009)

Like others stated, clean the pipe and fitting really well, if dealing with lead free brass fittings, try using C-flux, No-Korrode, or any other acid base flux. I haven't had problems soldering lead free brass using Orange-Eco, but I also pre-tin them before I make the actual solder joint


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## AKdaplumba (Jan 12, 2010)

I guess I didn't clean it well enough. Service is a whole new ball game from new construction. Thx for help guys!


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## pauliplumber (Feb 9, 2009)

Yep clean it till it looks new. I like a new price of open mesh sand cloth. If there's any chance of water or steam then definitely use acid based flux. I personally hate water basedflux for service.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

pauliplumber said:


> Yep clean it till it looks new. I like a new price of open mesh sand cloth. If there's any chance of water or steam then definitely use acid based flux. I personally hate water basedflux for service.


You referring to grit cloth? That stuff is great! Apparently it's expensive though, as I've never seen a contractor that stocks it.

Every once in a blue moon, the supplier b/o's "plumbers roll" and sends out a few boxes of grit cloth instead... Even works when it's wet! Also you can use either side... Great stuff!


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

U666A said:


> You referring to grit cloth? That stuff is great! Apparently it's expensive though, as I've never seen a contractor that stocks it.
> 
> Every once in a blue moon, the supplier b/o's "plumbers roll" and sends out a few boxes of grit cloth instead... Even works when it's wet! Also you can use either side... Great stuff!


It's rare where you are? We've used nothing but for decades here. Don't buy the orange stuff - it's crap.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

futz said:


> It's rare where you are? We've used nothing but for decades here. Don't buy the orange stuff - it's crap.


Orange? You mean the "Masters" sand cloth with the orange back?

That's all I get! I use it for everything from soldering small bore, to prepping to braze 4"... Do the best you can with what you've got!


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## futz (Sep 17, 2009)

U666A said:


> Orange? You mean the "Masters" sand cloth with the orange back?
> 
> That's all I get! I use it for everything from soldering small bore, to prepping to braze 4"... Do the best you can with what you've got!


Masters is usually very good. Their brown open mesh is tip-top. Lasts a good long time - not too coarse.

This is the stuff - it's the best I've ever used. Been using it for years. You say it's expensive? I pay the bills, but I just don't even look at prices of stuff like that. Don't care. You have to have it, it works great, it lasts and lasts. Good enough - buy it. How expensive could it be? ... Looked it up - almost $10/roll wholesale - totally worth it.
















I don't know the brand of orange stuff I bought - it's neon orange all over - fairly coarse grit, and it only lasts one use before all the grit falls off. Total waste of money.


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## U666A (Dec 11, 2010)

futz said:


> Masters is usually very good. Their brown open mesh is tip-top. Lasts a good long time - not too coarse.
> 
> This is the stuff - it's the best I've ever used. Been using it for years.
> <img src="http://www.plumbingzone.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11140"/>
> ...


Yeah, that's the stuff that I get graced with from time to time...

Same brand as the "plumber's roll" I was referring to. Definitely last longer than one use.. But not as good as what you have pictured... :thumbup:


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

AKdaplumba said:


> I guess I didn't clean it well enough. Service is a whole new ball game from new construction. Thx for help guys!


Yeh, pretty big difference, AK.
Another thing to consider when soldering anything to old copper pipe is to get your old worn out fitting brush and give a scrape to the inside of the pipe a few inches. Sometimes the slime that's accumulated there'll be drawn into the joint long before it's hot enuff to bring the solder in. 
Also, clean the pipe, heat it (with no fitting on it yet) and flux it really well with good acid. Wipe with a dry rag and clean again before actually fluxing and making the joint.

But if you think that you got it well enough then you can be certain that it won't blow off until the middle of the night after you've left for vacation. :whistling2:


Mig


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

futz said:


> Masters is usually very good. Their brown open mesh is tip-top. Lasts a good long time - not too coarse.
> 
> This is the stuff - it's the best I've ever used. Been using it for years. You say it's expensive? I pay the bills, but I just don't even look at prices of stuff like that. Don't care. You have to have it, it works great, it lasts and lasts. Good enough - buy it. How expensive could it be? ... Looked it up - almost $10/roll wholesale - totally worth it.
> View attachment 11140
> ...


 I like the open mesh.


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## MDgirl400 (Aug 6, 2011)

we use shark bites. however I could not tell you if they can be used in all situations.

if the pipe is too weak, shouldnt we repipe because its all too weak?

Respectfully,

Ms Priss


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## Ron (Jun 12, 2008)

I will use open mesh and c-flux 95/5. works for me.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

MDgirl400 said:


> we use shark bites. however I could not tell you if they can be used in all situations.
> 
> if the pipe is too weak, shouldnt we repipe because its all too weak?
> 
> ...



Your funny nobody said it was to weak to solder but you should definitely sell all the repipe jobs your men can handle


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

BROOKLYN\PLUMB said:


> Your funny nobody said it was to weak to solder but you should definitely sell all the repipe jobs your men can handle


Have them chain themselves to the customers kitchen table and repeat themselves over and over until the customer signs the contract.... :laughing:


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

Redwood said:


> Have them chain themselves to the customers kitchen table and repeat themselves over and over until the customer signs the contract.... :laughing:


And remember its not a contract without 30 pages and at least 1 waiver


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## MDgirl400 (Aug 6, 2011)

here is were ya'll said its worn out. Jesus Christopher!
"Another thing to consider when soldering anything to old copper pipe is to get your old worn out fitting brush and give a scrape to the inside of the pipe a few inches"

in Florida when you get your first slab leak you should consider repipe. Ya'll wear me OUT!


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## Widdershins (Feb 5, 2011)

Redwood said:


> Have them chain themselves to the customers kitchen table and repeat themselves over and over until the customer signs the contract.... :laughing:


 Barring that, 'she' can stamp her tiny little foot and throw a temper tantrum until they're willing to spend whatever it takes to shut 'her' up.

*shrugs*

It worked here.


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

MDgirl400 said:


> here is were ya'll said its worn out. Jesus Christopher!
> "Another thing to consider when soldering anything to old copper pipe is to get your old worn out fitting brush and give a scrape to the inside of the pipe a few inches"
> 
> in Florida when you get your first slab leak you should consider repipe. Ya'll wear me OUT!


Old worn out BRUSH do you know what that is? 
You should try to learn about the business you inherited sorry you know business I meant plumbing


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## Airgap (Dec 18, 2008)

MDgirl400 said:


> here is were ya'll said its worn out. Jesus Christopher!
> "Another thing to consider when soldering anything to old copper pipe is to get your old worn out fitting brush and give a scrape to the inside of the pipe a few inches"
> 
> in Florida when you get your first slab leak you should consider repipe. Ya'll wear me OUT!


Removing slimy build up inside doesn't mean it is wore out....

This thread isn't about slab leaks or repipes...

It's about soldering copper...


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## MDgirl400 (Aug 6, 2011)

hello, the thread is about "soldering older copper" 

I hear that and want to make it all good! no more leaks that sort of thing.

"DONT HATE ME BECAUSE I'M BEAUTIFUL"


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

MDgirl400 said:


> hello, the thread is about "soldering older copper"
> 
> I hear that and want to make it all good! no more leaks that sort of thing.
> 
> "DONT HATE ME BECAUSE I'M BEAUTIFUL"


You don't have much respect for your fathers profession do you?


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## cityplumbing (Jun 12, 2010)

I use a dremel with the sanding wheel on it, works great on old copper.:thumbsup:


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

She needs to stick to the business and marketing feeds...

She knows nothing about plumbing in the field.


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## plumb nutz (Jan 28, 2011)

I get my sandpaper wet and give of the nice go over, nice pretty pipe to soldier onto. For some of that questionable pipe that doesn't seem to take with the 95/5, I cap that joint off with a little good ol'50/50 and its good to go...


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## BROOKLYN\PLUMB (May 21, 2010)

You can always tin the old copper that will do it every time


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## Evolve (Jan 2, 2011)

MDgirl400 said:


> hello, the thread is about "soldering older copper"
> 
> I hear that and want to make it all good! no more leaks that sort of thing.
> 
> "DONT HATE ME BECAUSE I'M BEAUTIFUL"


Why would you replace all the copper when it's leaking at one spot? 
More often than not it's the fitting that ends up leaking as that's where you end up with the most wear. The pipe is still normally in good condition. Really no need for a repipe. 

As for shark bites, those should be only used in a dire emergency where you can't shut the water off and need to fix the leak. Otherwise, take your time and solder it. Shark bites look like hack work to me.

As for the brass copper to pex adapters, I've always found that they simply need more heat than regular copper fittings. And of course as it's been mentioned, clean that old copper up to make it look brand new. :yes:


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## skitian (Apr 5, 2011)

Speaking of it maybe being the brass, we went through a bad spot for about 2-3 years ending around 09'-10' that we had lots of problems with soldering wolverine brass ball valves. It was the smooth finish brass side of the valve. You think you had it then the damn valve would blow off, no joke. Or you'd have to go back a week later because it started weeping. The solder wouldn't draw in right, had to heat the hell out of it to get it to act better. Wasn't just me, everyone in our company was having endless problems. Got so bad some quit using them and would put on male adapters and IPS ball valves. Our boss would b*tch at us if we picked up other brands from supply houses. We thought it was bad brass, maybe it was a lead free thing, I don't know. The issue has since cleared up, but we could never get wolverine brass to fess up to there being a problem.


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## Miguel (Aug 10, 2009)

MDgirl400 said:


> hello, the thread is about "soldering older copper"
> 
> I hear that and want to make it all good! no more leaks that sort of thing.
> 
> "DONT HATE ME BECAUSE I'M BEAUTIFUL"


Of course you do, m'girl, and I respect you for that but my response (the one you quoted) was for the many times you encounter old, sound Type "L" or better copper that seems to resist being soldered again.
It doesn't take a magician to determine if a repipe is in order but where none is justified then I'd be hard pressed to legitimately put my customer through the uneccesary expense of repiping their building just because it's easier for me and my bottom line.
If you're in the position of trying to adapt to someones old tyme copper distribution system then I'm sure that you've taken the time to determine if it's worth tying into.

Mig

_Btw, I have a suit pending against Clairol for that tagline. I was the first to use the "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful." _


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