# Wirsbo vs Uponor vs ProPEX..???



## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

I'm feeling old....
I got a contract to do some Renos in a Condo, which I normally don't do. I'm also seeing this Wirsbo in residential/houses.
the condo is piped-in in 1/2" Wirsbo (coming off the risers), so I'm looking to buy an expanding tool, preferably by Milwaukee (M18). Apparently the guys at the suppliers don't know anything about these tools and system but they sell the materials! the plumbers I know are old timers and they have no knowledge to share.. when I google Wirsbo m18(etc), the results come up"ProPEX expanding tool" by Milwaukee. 
I had read something somewhere that Wirsbo was bought out by Uponor.. 
I've read so much, but a lot of the info is conflicting.

what's the difference between Wirsbo, ProPEX and Uponor?
Does Milwaukee make an M18 version for 1/2" & 3/4"?

thanks..


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Do you want to do the job fully in wirsbo or you looking just to convert to pex?

I think the various names of the product are due to copyright laws. Since they can't use the most common name they use their own.

From what I understand wirsbo is the popular brand name in Canada and uponor in the US


----------



## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

They are all the same thing we've done a lot of jobs using the uponor/wirsbo system... it's just pex a meaning expandable pex... if your never going to use your expansion tool after this job it's not worth buying one... 
Pex-a you can also use the copper ring crimps and stainless cinch style clamps so if you already have those tools might be better option to just use those...
Pex a in my opinion is better than pex b(shark bite or waterline brands) it's more flexible they dont sell it at home depot.. 
Expansion is quick but I think crimping is quicker..

Off topic here but if anyone ever decided to use pex in apartment buildings they should be aware that the manufacturers ratings never be exceeded as it will fail especially with hot water.. 
we have a building with insanely high pressure and have had major problems with it and this is just a one off place but we had to put a 2" prv in was so strong blew the pipe apart... not at fittings but the pipe.

125 psi and hot pex dont like it much


----------



## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Logtec said:


> I'm feeling old....
> I got a contract to do some Renos in a Condo, which I normally don't do. I'm also seeing this Wirsbo in residential/houses.
> the condo is piped-in in 1/2" Wirsbo (coming off the risers), so I'm looking to buy an expanding tool, preferably by Milwaukee (M18). Apparently the guys at the suppliers don't know anything about these tools and system but they sell the materials! the plumbers I know are old timers and they have no knowledge to share.. when I google Wirsbo m18(etc), the results come up"ProPEX expanding tool" by Milwaukee.
> I had read something somewhere that Wirsbo was bought out by Uponor..
> ...


I’ve heard it called all three names plus aquapex. 

I think the tool is M12 for 1/2”-1”. M18 for 1” and larger


----------



## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

Tango said:


> Do you want to do the job fully in wirsbo or you looking just to convert to pex?
> 
> I think the various names of the product are due to copyright laws. Since they can't use the most common name they use their own.
> 
> From what I understand wirsbo is the popular brand name in Canada and uponor in the US


id like to keep it the same, so Wirsbo. can the Milwaukee exp tool be used for wirsbo and propex?


----------



## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

Venomthirst said:


> They are all the same thing we've done a lot of jobs using the uponor/wirsbo system... it's just pex a meaning expandable pex... if your never going to use your expansion tool after this job it's not worth buying one...
> Pex-a you can also use the copper ring crimps and stainless cinch style clamps so if you already have those tools might be better option to just use those...
> Pex a in my opinion is better than pex b(shark bite or waterline brands) it's more flexible they dont sell it at home depot..
> Expansion is quick but I think crimping is quicker..
> ...


im seeing wirsbo more and more in Toronto, and there is other work I could be doing with said tool. but I don't want to have to buy 2-3 different tools for slightly different systems...

off topic: I have a few condos with high pressure and were constantly changing fill valves on toilets, which is a good thing.


----------



## Venomthirst (Jun 20, 2018)

I dont even know how to use the quoting on here but yes they are all the same thing just different manufacturers same system Pex-A (wirsbo , uponor) pex b home depot stuff, pex c (pex-al-pex aka kitec).. the Milwaukee tool can be used to expand any pex a system... I believe uponor was just the name of the tool manufacture and wirsbo is the actual piping system whenever I go to supply house just ask for wirsbo and they get me the right stuff... we have an old uponor expansion tool battery and a couple hand expansion tools at our shop we've been using it since before Milwaukee came out with.thier expansion tools


----------



## Debo22 (Feb 15, 2015)

Venomthirst said:


> I dont even know how to use the quoting on here but yes they are all the same thing just different manufacturers same system Pex-A (wirsbo , uponor) pex b home depot stuff, pex c (pex-al-pex aka kitec).. the Milwaukee tool can be used to expand any pex a system... I believe uponor was just the name of the tool manufacture and wirsbo is the actual piping system whenever I go to supply house just ask for wirsbo and they get me the right stuff... we have an old uponor expansion tool battery and a couple hand expansion tools at our shop we've been using it since before Milwaukee came out with.thier expansion tools


Uponor is a brand name


----------



## canuck92 (Apr 1, 2016)

We have about 12 expanders at our shop.

M12 expanders 1/2" up to 1" 
M18 1" - 1-1/2
And a seperate m18 tool that does 2" ( looks like a cinderblock )
Iv done alot of riser change outs in building in wirsbo never had any issues. I hold the pipe on the fitting for 30-45 seconds after i put it on.
Also keep it flush on the fitting not bending it while its contacting.
And i dont turn water on till the last joint has cured for atleast 5 mins. 
Never had any issues following that proccess.

I use pex or copper in houses, wirsbo in apartment building.


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Venomthirst said:


> I dont even know how to use the quoting on here


Go to the post you want to quote, there's a few buttons : edit, quote, multi quote and thanks.

You can use the thanks when you see me post. :biggrin:


----------



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Logtec said:


> id like to keep it the same, so Wirsbo. can the Milwaukee exp tool be used for wirsbo and propex?



Just get that hand held milwaukee tool and you are good to go from 1/2 up through one inch...

I have never used my one inch expanders yet I got 3 one inch ones just laying in mothballs cause I never have had a need for them.... , I just use the 1/2 and 3/4... and I have torn up a number of them over time......
I would also suggest you buy yourself an extra 1/2 expander and 3/4 expander just because it is wise to have spares.....

I have used this tool quite a lot and never had a problem with it.. this tool actually spins the fitting as it is expanding and you almost cannot screw up a joint with it... All you have to do is hold it together until it sets up and its easy peasy..

they sell for about 400 bucks but you will probably never wear it out....

https://www.faucetdepot.com/faucetd...OaSSbG2XfD2QltKLELDRGV_YEpKhLeYIaAinjEALw_wcB


----------



## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

thank guys for all the info!


----------



## czplumbing (Nov 24, 2014)

Uponor all the way. good system try and stay away from brass fittings. I come across a lot of other sytems that have brass fittings and the corrode a lot on well or public water. seen a lot of this as on circ lines to


----------



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

czplumbing said:


> Uponor all the way. good system try and stay away from brass fittings. I come across a lot of other sytems that have brass fittings and the corrode a lot on well or public water. seen a lot of this as on circ lines to



You are 100% correct about that... Stuff we installed back in 2004 in brass looks like total hell today , I guess it has lasted the warranty but it just looks nasty ... but I guess copper looks like hell too after 15 years...... I dont think their brass is of very good quality......

Now the black plastic fittings in all makes and sizes that they are fantastic.... The moulded 6 port manifolds work great I dont think anything is ever gonna attack that stuff..



..


----------



## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

so recap:
Milwaukee M12 ProPEX tool is good for expanding 1/2", 3/4" & 1'
PEX-A pipe and plastic (not brass) fittings. 
which have the name brands, Uponor and Wirsbo?


----------



## donchange (Feb 27, 2009)

Uponor(Wirsbo) AquaPex


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

donchange said:


> Uponor(Wirsbo) AquaPex












PlumbingZone is a site for Plumbing Professionals only, who are interested in promoting and improving the Plumbing trade. In our community the term "Plumbing Professional" refers to the following persons:
Master Plumber, Plumbing Contractor, Journeyman Plumber, Pipe Fitter, Apprentice Plumber, and Plumbing Helper, Plumbing Inspectors and Plumbing Engineers.
Plumbing Business Owners and Operators including management positions and their support staff. (Operations Manager, Service Manager, Project Manager, Superintendents, Customer Service, etc.)
Drain Cleaning, Fire Sprinkler, Hydronic Heating, Boiler, Steam, Chiller, Municipal Water and Wastewater, Potable Water Treatment, Septic System, Water Well, Wastewater Treatment.
The above outline is what we as a community consider to be a Plumbing Professional on the PlumbingZone. It was developed with input from a wide variety of our members that work in different areas of the trade. 

If you do not see your particular aspect of the trade listed, but still consider yourself a Plumbing Professional, please send your request for inclusion to one of the Moderators via private message. Addressing this issue with individual members is to be done by the Administrator and Moderators ONLY.

As stated above PlumbingZone.com is designed to be a pros only community and that means that "Do It Yourself" homeowners looking for free advice and other non-professionals are not allowed to join the site.


----------



## donchange (Feb 27, 2009)

I can not call my self Plumbing Professional, just enjoying soldering,expansion and contraction, and using my brain from time to time. 1027253


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

donchange said:


> I can not call my self Plumbing Professional, just enjoying soldering,expansion and contraction, and using my brain from time to time. 1027253


well i guess you didnt use your brain by posting here and with no intro...2009 and 4 posts??? wtf...


----------



## gap1927 (Feb 25, 2014)

donchange said:


> I can not call my self Plumbing Professional, just enjoying soldering,expansion and contraction, and using my brain from time to time. 1027253


Be gone with you Donchange! 
How dare you post on the plumbing professional's forum 

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Master Mark said:


> You are 100% correct about that... Stuff we installed back in 2004 in brass looks like total hell today , I guess it has lasted the warranty but it just looks nasty ... but I guess copper looks like hell too after 15 years...... I dont think their brass is of very good quality......
> 
> Now the black plastic fittings in all makes and sizes that they are fantastic.... The moulded 6 port manifolds work great I dont think anything is ever gonna attack that stuff..
> 
> ...



i thought about using the plastic fittings over the brass, but didnt trust the plastic to hold up from cracking or being weakened by all the chlorine in the water..so do you know of any failure issues with brass vs plastic? not just what they look like after time? i have been using the brass fittings for over 20 years and have not had 1 call back or heard of any fitting failure, i would think if a fitting failed my phone would be ringing looking for insurance money..


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> i thought about using the plastic fittings over the brass, but didnt trust the plastic to hold up from cracking or being weakened by all the chlorine in the water..so do you know of any failure issues with brass vs plastic? not just what they look like after time? i have been using the brass fittings for over 20 years and have not had 1 call back or heard of any fitting failure, i would think if a fitting failed my phone would be ringing looking for insurance money..


I use plastic fittings, and new residential use plastic fittings.


----------



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> i thought about using the plastic fittings over the brass, but didnt trust the plastic to hold up from cracking or being weakened by all the chlorine in the water..so do you know of any failure issues with brass vs plastic? not just what they look like after time? i have been using the brass fittings for over 20 years and have not had 1 call back or heard of any fitting failure, i would think if a fitting failed my phone would be ringing looking for insurance money..



I remember the Kitech and Zurn disasters from the early 2000s... that were from brass fittings that had too much zinc in them........

the brass wirsbo fittings seem to be fine but just turn ugly over time...

Everyone in this region has been using the black plastic fittings for well over 15 years now without any issues that I am aware of.....I think that the plastic fittings are 1-4th the price of the brass ones...

I did a job in the black fittings one time and installed a whole bunch of manifolds in the ceiling connecting a bunch of bathrooms together.... The owner sprayed foam into the joysts for insulation afterward..... 

Then the dumbass never got a furnace installed in this home and the water was charged on ... The place froze solid before I was made aware of this mistake that the homeowner made and I was scared ****less about how bad the damage was gonna be with all that foam covering all the lines...
The only place it froze and broke was at the copper manifolds I installed by the water heater placement.....by some miracle everything never broke.....

I thought for sure that those 6 port plastic manifolds would have frozen and snapped open, but they held up ok even though once we thawed out this home long pipe turds came rolling out of the aquapex lines.....

I was impressed and have used the stuff without fear or loathing since at least 2008:vs_cool::wink:


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Master Mark said:


> I remember the Kitech and Zurn disasters from the early 2000s... that were from brass fittings that had too much zinc in them........
> 
> the brass wirsbo fittings seem to be fine but just turn ugly over time...
> 
> ...


what kind of water quality do you have in your area, by me you can smell the chlorine as you run municipal tap water...


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> I was impressed and have used the stuff without fear or loathing since at least 2008:vs_cool::wink:


Ah this reminds me of this awesome song based on the movie. Probably not your cup of tea to you elder gentlemen, especially if you're not into electronic music. :wink:


----------



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> what kind of water quality do you have in your area, by me you can smell the chlorine as you run municipal tap water...



We have pretty nasty water... Usually about 22 parts hard water with a lot of lime and a few parts per mil on iron too

The local water companies are throwing lots of chlorine and some kind of other toxin called chlormines into the water.... 

Water softeners around here are being destroyed by the additives and the resin beds are swelling up like ..... a dead toad on a hot summers day..... They are lasting around 6 years here in some parts of town before expanding out the top of the unit, . or breaking down and turning to soup....
.
Around here, you have to buy the most chlorine resistant mineral bed available if you want to get more than 10 years out of a water softener.. I am presently buying the CLACK water softener with a resin called Black Sand... It is supposed to be the toughest on the market available.....

I dont think you are gonna have a problem with those plastic fittings, because our water is supposed tobe the hardest and worst in the nation except for maybe new orleans...

I have a carbon filter in my home that backwashes every few nights and our water smells fine but you cant believe how bad some peoples water stinks like... and they drink it every day


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Tango said:


> Ah this reminds me of this awesome song based on the movie. Probably not your cup of tea to you elder gentlemen, especially if you're not into electronic music. :wink:
> 
> VELVET ACID CHRIST ~ Fun With Drugs - YouTube



lol..let me smoke a joint first:biggrin::vs_smirk: and it looks pretty cool....almost a mix of pink floyd and monty python on the graphics...:tt2::tt2::tt2::tt2:


----------



## czplumbing (Nov 24, 2014)

here are some pictures I have took over the years coming across bas brass fittings. I know I have more but cant seem to find them on the phone. now like I said ive seen this on well water and public water. I know electrolysis can cause this as well . Also has any one noticed them corroding more on a re-circ line ?


----------



## czplumbing (Nov 24, 2014)

one more


----------



## gap1927 (Feb 25, 2014)

De-zincification was a big problem with the brass fittings when they first came out. Particularly Zurn fittings.
"As a result of the*lawsuit, Zurn has admitted fault for using the inferiorbrass. These defective*PEX fittingswere made with yellow*brass*that contains a lot of zinc. ... It also causesfittings*to crack or break, leaking water within your walls or underneath your house.Mar 15, 2017"

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

czplumbing said:


> here are some pictures I have took over the years coming across bas brass fittings. I know I have more but cant seem to find them on the phone. now like I said ive seen this on well water and public water. I know electrolysis can cause this as well . Also has any one noticed them corroding more on a re-circ line ?



that almost looks like mineral build up from slow leaks, i would be curious what those fittings would look like if cut in half to see a cross section to see if and or how much of the brass fitting is dissolved..


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

czplumbing said:


> here are some pictures I have took over the years coming across bas brass fittings. I know I have more but cant seem to find them on the phone. now like I said ive seen this on well water and public water. I know electrolysis can cause this as well . Also has any one noticed them corroding more on a re-circ line ?


Then it's an american thing. We never had that sort of corrosion so it must be the manufacturer only.


----------



## roving plumber (Apr 25, 2011)

Logtec did you end up getting the tool? do you have decent pawn shops in your area? I got my millwaukee m12 tool with 1/2, 3/4, 1" heads, case, charger and 2 batteries for 200 at a pawn shop. I actually saw the same setup for 250 at the same shop today (it was really clean, wanted to buy it and sell mine) I have actually been seeing a lot of them at pawn shops recently. I like the expandable systems better for a couple reasons: never miss crimping a fitting and better flow due to larger fittings.


----------



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

ShtRnsdownhill said:


> what kind of water quality do you have in your area, by me you can smell the chlorine as you run municipal tap water...



something else I forgot to mention... You dont see any corrosion on the black plastic fittings I guess because their is nothing dis-similar??. I have NEVER seen an issue yet....

Remember that the PEX is also made of plastic and you are expecting all these brands to last a long time so what is the problem with the plastic joints too??? The Fact is that the chlorine is gonna attack the PEX just as much as it would the black wirsbo joints too.... 

Remember, no one on this planet really knows how long the PEX is gonna last..YET anyway..... The only people pitching a bitc/ about the PEX were the Copper Industry back in the early 2000s when it was totally legalized in California. They went nuts over this......

This debate has been going on now for a long time... On average L copper is gonna last about 60 years .... maybe more..... and the copper industry was claiming that the chlorine will wear out the PEX much faster.... and no one knows for sure how long its gonna last .......'

So far the only thing to really fail with pex has been the brass joints.

So dont worry about it so much ,, you will probably be dead before 
any of this is gonna come back and bite you in the ass......

just get cremated and you wont have an ass for them to bite....:vs_laugh:


. .


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> So dont worry about it so much ,, you will probably be dead before
> any of this is gonna come back and bite you in the ass......
> 
> just get cremated and you wont have an ass for them to bite....:vs_laugh:
> ...


That is an epic quote! :vs_rocking_banana: :vs_rocking_banana: :vs_rocking_banana:


----------



## czplumbing (Nov 24, 2014)

A few of the fittings over the years have broke as I was removing the bad sections


----------



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

czplumbing said:


> A few of the fittings over the years have broke as I was removing the bad sections



Are you talking about brass fittings correct???

I guess that their has to be some kind of electralysis going on in the brass fitting even when its not even touching a dis-similar metal......

On another issue does anyone have any idea how long type L copper will last?? We got it in our home from 1966 so that makes it about 53 years old and counting.....

I read that in France they were using the wirsbo piping for a very long time already but they do not add chlorine or other additives to their water as much as we do...


Its just a race to the finish line on all this stuff.... and it will be the next generations problem.


----------



## ShtRnsdownhill (Jan 13, 2016)

Master Mark said:


> something else I forgot to mention... You dont see any corrosion on the black plastic fittings I guess because their is nothing dis-similar??. I have NEVER seen an issue yet....
> 
> Remember that the PEX is also made of plastic and you are expecting all these brands to last a long time so what is the problem with the plastic joints too??? The Fact is that the chlorine is gonna attack the PEX just as much as it would the black wirsbo joints too....
> 
> ...





like anything else we do, you feel more comfortable with materials you have been using and havent given you problems than to switch to something new and may have problems, or never, but making the change is an issue on its own..until i have issue with a part or material im using it kinda hard to make the switch unless there is a big benefit over the other...once you retire and sell or shut down the company thats the end of your liability for a product..you cant get blood from a stone..


----------



## gap1927 (Feb 25, 2014)

We were told by the factory reps that back in Finland where Wirsbo/Uponor PEXa was first invented, they still have a continuously flowing piping system in service for over 40 years now. 

From Uponor website:

"Leaks are not a concern with an Uponor PEX plumbing system when the system is properly installed. With a life expectancy of more than 100 years, Uponor*PEX tubing has withstood the most extensive tests in the industry for more than 40 years. What's more, all Uponor PEX tubing is thoroughly inspected before it leaves our manufacturing plant to ensure a quality product is going into the homes you build. And, we also offer a*25-year limited warranty*on our PEX tubing and ProPEXfittings when installed by an Uponor-trained professional."

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Master Mark said:


> On another issue does anyone have any idea how long type L copper will last?? We got it in our home from 1966 so that makes it about 53 years old and counting.....


My copper in my house dates back from 1952 and it was still in good condition. Not even sure if it was M or L. I removed the rest of it in 2015 (63 years old) because the solder was so brittle it only took a finger to break the seal. I could of re-soldered the joints for another 30 years!

Now I only have to replace the other 30% of diy spaghetti pex that was done. I redid mostly in M and insulated the hot. I'm only going to redo that part when I get to finish the basement walls.


----------



## Alan (Jun 18, 2008)

I know I posted fairly recently about a failure of the hot water recirculating line only at a hair salon using residential hot water heater at the factory setting and normal pressure (under 80psi) .

I am also unsure of this brand of pex my supplier is selling me called "Aquaseal"

I've used wirsbo branded pex for many years, but this aquaseal stuff seems a little stiffer, and the 1/2" variety does weird things if you expand it too rapidly. I've done a few tests in my driveway and the wirsbo pipe works as intended every time, this aquaseal junk is a little scary. It's got the ASTM designation for the expansion technology, but if I put the head into the pipe 100% the first time I go to expand it, it makes stress lines in the pipe similar to what you would expect if the head didn't rotate and you expanded the same position repeatedly.

I asked the salesman about it a couple of weeks ago and he was going to look into it. Haven't heard a peep about it. Might be time to start looking for pex pipe elsewhere.


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

Alan said:


> I know I posted fairly recently about a failure of the hot water recirculating line only at a hair salon using residential hot water heater at the factory setting and normal pressure (under 80psi) .
> 
> I am also unsure of this brand of pex my supplier is selling me called "Aquaseal"
> 
> ...



As a one man shop buy the good stuff, you don't want an insurance claim or lawsuit.


----------



## Master Mark (Aug 14, 2009)

Alan said:


> I know I posted fairly recently about a failure of the hot water recirculating line only at a hair salon using residential hot water heater at the factory setting and normal pressure (under 80psi) .
> 
> I am also unsure of this brand of pex my supplier is selling me called "Aquaseal"
> 
> ...




If you are using aquapex by Upanor then you already are using the best stuff on the market..

Their have been many brands on the market that have come and gone.. and your salesman is just attempting to sell you what he has been told to push....and it cannot be that much cheaper.... for the risk you are taking maybe 5 cents a foot less???

It sounds like this stuff is dog shi/ so why are you fooling around with it??
If you want to be a "crash test dummy" go ahead and install a few thousand feet of the stuff and see what happens..... 

When the shi/ hits the fan the company will just file bankruptcy and move their operations to canada... and you will be left holding the bag...:vs_whistle::vs_whistle::vs_laugh:


.


----------



## Burnsy810 (Jul 9, 2017)

Logtec said:


> Tango said:
> 
> 
> > Do you want to do the job fully in wirsbo or you looking just to convert to pex?
> ...


Wirsbo is the way to go and yes the milwaukee tool works with that


----------



## Logtec (Jun 3, 2018)

Awesome, thank you for all the advice fellow brothers.
Job done- water lines/DWV passed.. sorry about the delay..


----------



## MikeinWinnipeg (Apr 4, 2019)

roving plumber said:


> Logtec did you end up getting the tool? do you have decent pawn shops in your area? I got my millwaukee m12 tool with 1/2, 3/4, 1" heads, case, charger and 2 batteries for 200 at a pawn shop. I actually saw the same setup for 250 at the same shop today (it was really clean, wanted to buy it and sell mine) I have actually been seeing a lot of them at pawn shops recently. I like the expandable systems better for a couple reasons: never miss crimping a fitting and better flow due to larger fittings.


Does anyone else avoid buying tools from pawn shops because it supports thievery?


----------



## Tango (Jan 13, 2018)

MikeinWinnipeg said:


> Does anyone else avoid buying tools from pawn shops because it supports thievery?


I don't look at pawn shop tools anymore because seriously they sell them more than if you were to buy them new.

Then some pawn shops look online at the actual cost and shave 90 cents. There must be a reason they don't want to sell them. If someone knows let me know.


----------

