# Drain diagnostic help



## Plumb26 (May 18, 2013)

I have recently purchased a sewer camera. I am pretty sure this drain needs to be replaced. It has been jetted but it looks as if it is rotted out. Let me know what you think....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mykjz1MKVDE&feature=youtu.be

Thanks in advance!


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

Replace.


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## Plumb26 (May 18, 2013)

Sorry if it seems stupid but before I get my customer to destroy their finished basement, I wanted to have a second opinion on what I think I know I saw.:thumbsup: Looks to me like the drain rotted out just as kitchen came into it. Bad times. All said and done they will be looking at about 18k (turn-key). And boy the smell we will smell! 
I hate it for these folks. They have been very good customers.


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## Plumb Bob (Mar 9, 2011)

Definitely rotted


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## plbgbiz (Aug 27, 2010)

The inside of the CI is rough, rusted, deteriorating, and will be an increasing source of drain blockages. Can it be cabled/jetted and kept going for a while? Sure. Maybe even a long while. But at what cost to flooring damage, cleanup expense, inconvenience, and embarrassment? 

And as those periodic cleanings occur, in the back of their mind they should be prepared for the time when cabling won't work. Then they will be stuck with the backed up mess with no warning and possibly no plumber available. While no one can say exactly what day it will happen, it will likely be at night or on the weekend with a house full of guests.


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## Plumb26 (May 18, 2013)

plbgbiz said:


> The inside of the CI is rough, rusted, deteriorating, and will be an increasing source of drain blockages. Can it be cabled/jetted and kept going for a while? Sure. Maybe even a long while. But at what cost to flooring damage, cleanup expense, inconvenience, and embarrassment?
> 
> And as those periodic cleanings occur, in the back of their mind they should be prepared for the time when cabling won't work. Then they will be stuck with the backed up mess with no warning and possibly no plumber available. While no one can say exactly what day it will happen, it will likely be at night or on the weekend with a house full of guests.


 I just now edited the video. I don't think you watched the part in question. I have been blindly doing preventative cleanings once a year on this drain for the past three years. this year I decided to run the camera in to see what good we were doing. when I saw this, it looked as if the pipe is already missing it's bottom. This is a slab basement and yes, what originally initiated this line to be set up on a pm was an 11pm phonecall and being out there till 2 in the morning cleaning the line. They way this line looks, I'm not sure I want to risk my cables on doing the pm anymore. We are set up to replace this starting in August. Thanks all for your help.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

Perfect video to show the plumbing board why its better to have PVC pipe underground.. yes, some area here do not allow PVC under slab but allowed to connect pvc sewer outside bldg.


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## Plumb26 (May 18, 2013)

rjbphd said:


> Perfect video to show the plumbing board why its better to have PVC pipe underground.. yes, some area here do not allow PVC under slab but allowed to connect pvc sewer outside bldg.


Well, luckily we don't have that problem. I will be going back with PVC.


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## AlbacoreShuffle (Aug 28, 2011)

Hey !
How did you get a copy of my last Colonoscopy ?


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Bottomless pipe!

Replace the line....


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm still trying to figure out why you were even asking for a second opinion..

Blatantly obvious the bottom is gone on the pipe.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Don't be afraid to tell them the bad news. If they don't like it tell them the results of ignoring the problem saturation of the ground under the footings could result in more costly repairs. I don't see what the big deal is about it being under the basement floor just saw cut the concrete with a hydronic diamond blade saw in 2 x2 feet sections and remove. Do it right or don't do it.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

wyrickmech said:


> Don't be afraid to tell them the bad news. If they don't like it tell them the results of ignoring the problem saturation of the ground under the footings could result in more costly repairs. I don't see what the big deal is about it being under the basement floor just saw cut the concrete with a hydronic diamond blade saw in 2 x2 feet sections and remove. Do it right or don't do it.


 You must have never come across a fancy finished off basement apparently?

We had to do one last year where the kitchen cabinets, ceramic tile, carpet, & a fancy bar, bathroom, and sauna room all had to get taken out, & reinstalled &/or replaced.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Don The Plumber said:


> You must have never come across a fancy finished off basement apparently?
> 
> We had to do one last year where the kitchen cabinets, ceramic tile, carpet, & a fancy bar, bathroom, and sauna room all had to get taken out, & reinstalled &/or replaced.


Sounds like just the place to shoot a liner through...


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Don The Plumber said:


> You must have never come across a fancy finished off basement apparently?
> 
> We had to do one last year where the kitchen cabinets, ceramic tile, carpet, & a fancy bar, bathroom, and sauna room all had to get taken out, & reinstalled &/or replaced.


You sir must not understand anything can be repaired,it just comes down to how much do you want to repair. I have been involved with very elaborate buildings with marble walls and inlay floors plaster walls with hand made plaster crown moldings that have no molds or patterns. The fact that you have water intrusion under the floor should make the owner want to fix it right now. The damage is going to do nothing but increase. It dos not matter how ornate or expensive the finish is if the floor heaves or a footing sinks the damage will increase ten fold. I have seen this problem before they put of fixing it and ended up abandoning the building for several years. The end result was that they had to dig up one side demo all the footings and wall dig down to stable ground and replace to stabilize the building. All they would have had to do was lose some flooring and redo some walls. It would have been less than a tenth of the cost.


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Sounds like just the place to shoot a liner through...


The liner is less intrusive but does it work when the pipe is this far gone? Wouldn't it follow the severe trenching that has occurred and have low spots?


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## MACPLUMB777 (Jun 18, 2008)

Don The Plumber said:


> You must have never come across a fancy finished off basement apparently?
> 
> We had to do one last year where the kitchen cabinets, ceramic tile, carpet, & a fancy bar, bathroom, and sauna room all had to get taken out, & reinstalled &/or replace
> I was thinking of a pipe pull from end to main line [/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]


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## Plumb26 (May 18, 2013)

Plumberman said:


> I'm still trying to figure out why you were even asking for a second opinion..
> 
> Blatantly obvious the bottom is gone on the pipe.


Well, I have already given my diagnosis, my solution, and my price for work. Turn key, they are looking at a little over 18k. But, my only fear would be to do this work (that is starting in August BTW) and get everything opened up to find that it was just sludge.
Funny how every person here has said "rotted" and on the other forum said "sludge/scale".


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## wyrickmech (Mar 16, 2013)

Plumb26 said:


> Well, I have already given my diagnosis, my solution, and my price for work. Turn key, they are looking at a little over 18k. But, my only fear would be to do this work (that is starting in August BTW) and get everything opened up to find that it was just sludge.
> Funny how every person here has said "rotted" and on the other forum said "sludge/scale".


That's because it is rotten,it is actually beyond that it is gone on the bottom. Cast iron rots first on the bottom . The ( other) forum are wrong!


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Plumb26 said:


> Well, I have already given my diagnosis, my solution, and my price for work. Turn key, they are looking at a little over 18k. But, my only fear would be to do this work (that is starting in August BTW) and get everything opened up to find that it was just sludge.
> Funny how every person here has said "rotted" and on the other forum said "sludge/scale".


When your video starts you are in good pipe, when you start back dragging your camera falls off in a valley and you can see that you are below grade of the pipe and its jagged in places...

That ain't sludge, sludge would pile up behind your float on the camera head and you could see it pile up on each side of the cameras field of view.

And, if you suspect a line is rotten on the bottom you can run water down the line with your camera down hole and watch the water disappear on screen...


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

Next time you camera one of these you need to light up another candle in that pipe lol


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## DesertOkie (Jul 15, 2011)

Good lord man, stop jerking the damn camera. Slow even pull, that jerking will get you caught in that broken pipe, then it's hammer time weather they want it or not.


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## Don The Plumber (Feb 14, 2010)

wyrickmech said:


> You sir must not understand anything can be repaired,it just comes down to how much do you want to repair. I have been involved with very elaborate buildings with marble walls and inlay floors plaster walls with hand made plaster crown moldings that have no molds or patterns. The fact that you have water intrusion under the floor should make the owner want to fix it right now. The damage is going to do nothing but increase. It dos not matter how ornate or expensive the finish is if the floor heaves or a footing sinks the damage will increase ten fold. I have seen this problem before they put of fixing it and ended up abandoning the building for several years. The end result was that they had to dig up one side demo all the footings and wall dig down to stable ground and replace to stabilize the building. All they would have had to do was lose some flooring and redo some walls. It would have been less than a tenth of the cost.


I agree with you. Not trying to say your wrong about the work that needs to be done, just trying to say, it is a big deal, when you have to tear up someones floor. Whether its a house or a business.
You said its no big deal, & that was the only part I disagreed with.

So are you telling me the above example you gave is no big deal? Sounds like it was a big deal, atleast to the property owner.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

wyrickmech said:


> The liner is less intrusive but does it work when the pipe is this far gone? Wouldn't it follow the severe trenching that has occurred and have low spots?


While a liner does somewhat conform to the old pipe it is also quite slick and forgiving to minor differences such as rotted out bottoms and offset joints...

I saw nothing in that video that I would consider an obstacle to relining...


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## Cuda (Mar 16, 2009)

Yea if the video was brighter and the pipe more cleaned up so I could see any other connections I would just line it, way faster and less destruction, cheaper too.


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## AndersenPlumbing (Jan 23, 2010)

I recently did a job for a customer (commercial) who was told by 2 different company's that they needed to replace a section of pipe, that it was gone. They couldn't get their jetter though it and it was broken or rotted. 

I was able to get a cable through it backwords and tie off my jetter and pull it through. After hours of jetting, I was able to get all the grease out of the line and get it flowing. 

Now the part where it pertains to this issue. 

The line was back pitched for about 8' it was holding water so the condition of the pipe couldn't be verified. It was about 16' away from the cleanout. We hooked up a bunch of sump pump hose to our shop vac and shoved it down the line and sucked all the water out. 

We then ran the camera down and were able to verify that the condition of the pipe was actually in great shape, it was just back pitched and going to get a big grease build up due to very slow flow. 


What I'm saying is.....Next time, get creative. Run a shop vac hose down the line and suck out that water, you will know for a fact if the bottom is missing if the water is out and you see a big trench under the middle of the pipe.


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## rjbphd (Feb 5, 2010)

AndersenPlumbing said:


> I recently did a job for a customer (commercial) who was told by 2 different company's that they needed to replace a section of pipe, that it was gone. They couldn't get their jetter though it and it was broken or rotted.
> 
> I was able to get a cable through it backwords and tie off my jetter and pull it through. After hours of jetting, I was able to get all the grease out of the line and get it flowing.
> 
> ...


 Sounds like a preventive maintenice job or you will be digging up the bad spot?


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## plumber luke (Oct 21, 2013)

I think you said you put cables down the line . a jetter is needed to clean it up a little better to get a better visual .
And with your camera although its quite a clear image its too dark so i would tape a small mag light to the camera so you can see the bottom of the pipe . [only if your camera is going down the line with ease that is ] . 
Another idea would be to tip some water down the line and then go see if the same amount of water makes it to the main . so if only half of what you tipped down makes it through the bottom is missing . Every body says the bottom is missing but you did say you want to be sure befor you dig up this nice basement .


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## Plumberman (Jul 7, 2008)

Tape a mag light?

Most cameras come equipped with LEDs

Taping a mag light to the end of a camera head then dropping it down line that's compromised is foolish at best... If the bottom is washed out and so is the dirt underneath the pipe, your head drops through and gets stuck, your tearing up flooring to retrieve your camera regardless if the customer is willing to pay.


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## plumber luke (Oct 21, 2013)

Plumberman said:


> Tape a mag light?
> 
> Most cameras come equipped with LEDs
> 
> Taping a mag light to the end of a camera head then dropping it down line that's compromised is foolish at best... If the bottom is washed out and so is the dirt underneath the pipe, your head drops through and gets stuck, your tearing up flooring to retrieve your camera regardless if the customer is willing to pay.


It looks like the bottom of the pipe is gone we are all 99% sure of that but he wants to be 100% sure . 
The camera is clear but its a little too dark so without getting a different camera i would put the small mag light taped behind the camera . 
I would only do this just before i chop the floor so i would be 100% sure the floor needs to be chopped .
If the camera gets stuck you will want to dig up the floor now for 2 reasons so it is a win win even if it gets stuck .
He is going to chop the floor any way so when he is chopping the floor he wont have any doubt if he uses a small mag light to get a better look or a brighter look .] 
I also said in my reply i would only do this is if the camera went down the line easily . :laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

plumber luke said:


> It looks like the bottom of the pipe is gone we are all 99% sure of that but he wants to be 100% sure.


Nope! I'm 100% sure...

The only thing I wasn't sure of was why we were being asked...
If I saw that line and was unsure if it was bad, I'd expect to have the camera taken away from me, and given to someone more qualified...


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## Plumb26 (May 18, 2013)

plumber luke said:


> I think you said you put cables down the line . a jetter is needed to clean it up a little better to get a better visual .
> And with your camera although its quite a clear image its too dark so i would tape a small mag light to the camera so you can see the bottom of the pipe . [only if your camera is going down the line with ease that is ] .
> Another idea would be to tip some water down the line and then go see if the same amount of water makes it to the main . so if only half of what you tipped down makes it through the bottom is missing . Every body says the bottom is missing but you did say you want to be sure befor you dig up this nice basement .


Jetted line for 2 hours before this was recorded. Actually it's been a while since I even thought about this job. I was later able to get the camera through from the upstream side and yes, its rotted. Job has been postponed, scheduled, postponed, scheduled, shopped, and the pipe is still there, rotting away. Not sure what they are gonna do, if anything.

As far as the maglits taped to camera, don't believe that will ever be happening.


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## Plumb26 (May 18, 2013)

Redwood said:


> Nope! I'm 100% sure...
> 
> The only thing I wasn't sure of was why we were being asked...
> If I saw that line and was unsure if it was bad, I'd expect to have the camera taken away from me, and given to someone more qualified...


Dude, we can all look at a television screen. You dont need to have "qualification" to operate a sewer camera. Get over yourself. 

I was simply getting a second opinion because I like to sleep at night. Customer had already been informed, job priced, sub called in to look at his end of project and permit pulled before I posted this video.
I was asking the question for me not because i wanted anyone here to diagnose my customers problem for me and it certainly wasnt an invitation for anyone to critique my qualifications because you dont know me. Just was to make me feel better to hear someone else say it.

If you aren't sure what or why a question is asked, don't answer.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Plumb26 said:


> Dude, we can all look at a television screen. You dont need to have "qualification" to operate a sewer camera. Get over yourself.
> 
> I was simply getting a second opinion because I like to sleep at night. Customer had already been informed, job priced, sub called in to look at his end of project and permit pulled before I posted this video.
> I was asking the question for me not because i wanted anyone here to diagnose my customers problem for me and it certainly wasnt an invitation for anyone to critique my qualifications because you dont know me. Just was to make me feel better to hear someone else say it.
> ...


It was blatantly obvious the pipe is shot...
If you are unsure of what you sold, and not sleeping at night...:whistling2:
Well a man has to know his limitations... Is all I'm saying...


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## PathMaker (May 10, 2013)

Redwood said:


> It was blatantly obvious the pipe is shot...
> If you are unsure of what you sold, and not sleeping at night...:whistling2:
> Well a man has to know his limitations... Is all I'm saying...


Redwood, while being a bit blunt on this one, is correct.

Yes, plumbers/drain techs/contractors DO need to be qualified to diagnose what a television screen is telling them. Its not a matter of one's ability to see, but one's ability to diagnose what is being seen.

I've had several x-rays taken in my life and neither I nor the M.D. holding doctor could, or even tried to "diagnose" what we could both clearly SEE. He, in all his wisdom, sent the x-rays to a radiologist to do the diagnosing and the end result is that I got the right medical treatment. 

The same is true for plumbers/drain techs. If you were not 100% sure of that pipe's need for replacement by watching that particular video then you had no business selling, scheduling or permitting that job. And if, by looking at that same video, you were not 100% sure that pipe was in need of replacement, you don't have any business doing video inspections of drains. 

That's not me, or anyone, needing to "get over ourselves" that's just a fact. You aren't qualified to diagnose the problems you are being paid to fix.
What we do takes skill and experience. It isn't something that just anyone can do. If it were, we would all be out of a job.

If you want to do your job properly, get the skill FIRST, then go charge for it. Don't ask the customer to put your tuition on their dime. THEN you can sleep at night, and not until.


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Yeah, get over yourself Red. You're not qualified to critique his work. It's bad enough that he can't sleep at night.

Geez, what's wrong with people.


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

I'm blunt and opinionated...
Plumb26 don't take it as an insult...

I'm pretty sure that you were sure that pipe was screwed or, you wouldn't have proposed doing the work...

You just need to be more sure of what you are doing, and that you are correct in what you are proposing to sell... It has a bearing on your ability to successfully close a sale...

Which may have not gone unnoticed by the customer and be the reason why the job has been postponed, scheduled, postponed, scheduled, shopped...

When someone is selling you something does the salesperson ever express doubt in the ability of their product or service to give you what you want or, need? Of course not!

The thing you need to realize is not only are we plumbers that fix the customers plumbing problem, we are salesmen before we ever get to do that! If you can't portray yourself as 100% confident in the course of action you are presenting for sale to the customer then you do need to hand that expensive camera and locating gear over to someone who can do that...

I'm just saying... Get that attitude adjustment! :thumbup:
Be sure of yourself... Sleep well at night with more money in your pocket...


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

I would like to add that I don't believe anyone can look at a camera screen and know what's going on. I have been called out to inspect lines for veteran plumbers who draw a blank when seeing the inside of a pipe. Don't get me wrong it is something that is easily mastered once you have the equipment but like everything else it takes some experience before you can say beyond a doubt what's going on. Our local rental equipment place rents sewer cameras to HO I could tell some great stories Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone

Some are obvious like this:


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## MTDUNN (Oct 9, 2011)

Unclog1776 said:


> Our local rental equipment place rents sewer cameras to HO


I get mad red in the face when I read about things like this.

If these rental places and box stores can't sell glycol, and you need proof of business ownership in many HVAC and Electrical supply houses, why can't the plumbing community get together and stop them from selling material and equipment to non licensed jackasses.

I say we start a petition, call our congressmen, governors, and senators and get legislation started. I remember going into my supply house back before these box stores. The sign said, "Homeowners to the back of the line!" 

We used to make money buying fixtures, not anymore. That's a big reason why we charge a minimum service fee of $100-$150 now.

Let's stand up proud and strong and don't take no for an answer!!!!

Who's with me???

Let's Go!!!.…

<turning the patriotic background music off now>


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

MTDUNN said:


> I get mad red in the face when I read about things like this. If these rental places and box stores can't sell glycol, and you need proof of business ownership in many HVAC and Electrical supply houses, why can't the plumbing community get together and stop them from selling material and equipment to non licensed jackasses. I say we start a petition, call our congressmen, governors, and senators and get legislation started. I remember going into my supply house back before these box stores. The sign said, "Homeowners to the back of the line!" We used to make money buying fixtures, not anymore. That's a big reason why we charge a minimum service fee of $100-$150 now. Let's stand up proud and strong and don't take no for an answer!!!! Who's with me??? Let's Go!!!.… <turning the patriotic background music off now>


I agree with you it's not cool but the patriot in me says leave the government out of it, let people **** their own homes up it's just more work for the service industry. What gets me in hacks doing it on COMMERCIAL property, that should not happen.

Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone


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## Drain Pro (Nov 3, 2013)

Unclog1776 said:


> I would like to add that I don't believe anyone can look at a camera screen and know what's going on. I have been called out to inspect lines for veteran plumbers who draw a blank when seeing the inside of a pipe. Don't get me wrong it is something that is easily mastered once you have the equipment but like everything else it takes some experience before you can say beyond a doubt what's going on. Our local rental equipment place rents sewer cameras to HO I could tell some great stories Sent from my iPhone using PlumbingZone
> 
> Some are obvious like this:
> 
> ...



What's wrong with that?:blink::laughing:


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## Redwood (Sep 8, 2008)

Drain Pro said:


> What's wrong with that?:blink::laughing:


Nothing a cable pulling a bursting head pulling a new HDPE line through there wouldn't cure....:laughing:


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## Unclog1776 (Feb 5, 2013)

Crazy thing about that pic. She had no backup issues what so ever. Of local municipality hired us to investigate the sink hole in her yard since it was taking the sidewalk down and presenting a safety hazard.


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